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Author Topic: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know  (Read 7669 times)

RPGPundit

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2022, 04:51:17 PM »
Having watched the video, I'm reminded of back in my teens when I went to go see The Last Temptation of Christ with a group from my church and discuss it afterwards. While we were in line, there were a bunch of protesters handing out pamphlets about how awful and blasphemous the movie is - without having seen it.

In general, there's plenty to criticize in Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but Pundit is explicit that he hasn't read it, and is just going by rumors he hears about it.

He also does a lot of declaring what the creators really think (like "they hate white people") and then clarifying that they don't say those things, but he just knows the impurity in their hearts.

Well, for example, it seems that when adventurers first arrive at the citadel they are immediately taxed, but that tax can be in coins, or jewels or gems, or in objects of values, magic items, or (I think) services. So the implication in the setting is that money is not considered a sole form of currency at least.

We're also told that all power and resources are distributed equitably.
Additionally, that everyone in the city receives a universal basic income.
And that health care is socialized (including resurrection spells, made easier by the fact that because the spire is full of the Power of Leftism or whatever, healing in the citadel is always at max effect and with not material component requirements).

So like most of human history even after money was invented? Even today, if you can't pay your taxes but you own stuff the government steals your stuff to cover the taxes plus their expenses in stealing your stuff.

Off course they have a magical NHS, one that works as intended because it's magical, and off course healing doesn't require material components in their commie utopia, these idiots think all things just fall from heaven.

Someone who creates a setting gets to define how magic powers work in a given world, as well as larger cosmology. Within their world, they are right. For example, in Pundit's Lion & Dragon - the monotheistic Church of the Unconquered Sun and the God of Law is defined as good, and the forces of chaos opposed to it are evil and a threat to human survival. Heresy and heathenism are "a direct threat to humankind in this life and the next".

Overall, the Radiant Citadel itself is a left-leaning utopia - but it seems the equivalent of fantasy nordic country or similar, rather than a communist country like Cuba. I don't think it works well as a gaming setting. It seems like a weak wrapper element to bring together the anthology of 13 adventures each in their own mini-setting, and it's my least favorite part of the book. However, that doesn't justify making up false stuff about it.

1) Pundit's charges of community policing are the most off-base. The book specifies a highly trained guard who deal with violence and inspectors for non-violent crime.

2) There's no suggestion that money isn't important or that *all* resources are distributed. Indeed, the multiple mentions of taxes, tariffs, and tolls scaled to means contradict this.

3) As one example, healing isn't free for anyone except the poorest. As the book puts it, "The House of Convalescence turns no one away; healing is priced according to one's means, and the poorest are served without charge." That could be called socialist because pricing is according to means, but people still have to pay. Historically, many church-run institutions would help heal the poor as well as provide other services, tithing members to pay for it. Alms is a common practice in Christianity and one of the pillars of Islam.

Hi jhkim. I'm not going to argue your logic.

You should. He was lying and accusing me of doing what he himself was doing.
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Brooding Paladin

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2022, 04:57:54 PM »
So, I love how it's all peace and harmony "just cuz" and therefore no law enforcement is required.  Because we have so many examples in the real world where it goes exactly this way.  /sarc  OK, so I'll give them this is a fantasy setting and they can play make believe all they want, but I'd like to know that there was some historical deterrent that led to everyone playing nice together.

And that leads me to the darker, more dystopian and definitely creepy observation about what RPGPundit just wrote in there:  this so-called ritual that prevents them from committing their crime again.  This immediately summons to mind "imposed rightthink," which sounds like re-education camps or whatever.  You don't have to work too hard for historical examples of that and they were definitely never imposed by leadership that had any kind of soul.  Very creepy stuff.  Hard pass for me for many reasons.

DeeEmm

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2022, 05:02:53 PM »
This place seems like a lovely point for a demonic invasion.

jhkim

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2022, 05:19:11 PM »
1) Pundit's charges of community policing are the most off-base. The book specifies a highly trained guard who deal with violence and inspectors for non-violent crime.

Now who's lying?! Here's their entire text on law and justice:  "Public safety and peacekeeping are administered through a variety of councils and organizations designed to address specific issues. The House of Convalescence helps those living with mental illness, while inspectors investigate nonviolent crimes and use nonlethal methods of detainment. Theft is uncommon in the city, and rehabilitation and restorative justice are preferred methods of addressing wrongs. Highly trained local guards mobilize to handle the rare incidents of violence, and citizens are expected to proactively intervene if needed. The worst offenders are sentenced to a controversial Djaynaian punishment wherein the criminal is subjected to a ritual that prevents them from repeating their crime and then is banished from the city."

So Peacekeeping is NOT the product of a centralized police force. It is handled by "a variety of councils and organizations", there is no single police force. The default is to assume that crime is a mental disorder, while nonviolent crimes are handled by "inspectors".

Bolding is mine above. That's exactly what I said. You claimed that it was "citizen policing" like the CHAZ uprising in Seattle. However, the text says that there are professional inspectors and highly-trained guards. It does say that mental illness is treated by their house of healing, but it doesn't say that is the default.

EDITED TO ADD:

And then we get to the key part, where YOU did exactly what you accuse me of doing.  You said above "the book specifies A highly trained guard" (note the "A").
The actual text here says "Highly trained LOCAL guardS". (note the lack of the a, the word local and the s at the end of guard)

YOU changed the text to fit your narrative, wanting to pretend that 3rd World Sigil has a single organized police force. IT DOES NOT. The text makes that very clear. A variety of organizations and councils administer peacekeeping and justice, and (presumably in each ethnic ghetto of 3rd World Sigil) there's (DIFFERENT) 'highly trained' LOCAL guardS (plural), meaning STREET GANGS with QUASI-GOVERNMENT AUTHORITY, exactly of the kind you see these days in Venezuela, Argentina, Seattle, Portland, Zimbabwe and other 3rd world shitholes.

Let me understand. You're trying to claim that

1) "a highly trained guard"
2) "highly trained local guards"

mean utterly different things. Where (1) evidently means a centralized police force, while (2) is enforcement by street gangs?!?

I never claimed that there was a single centralized police force, but I think "highly trained local guards" does not imply street gangs.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2022, 05:27:33 PM by jhkim »

zircher

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2022, 05:20:49 PM »
This place seems like a lovely point for a demonic invasion.
LMAO!  I was thinking the same thing.  If I were to ever run RC (not), my sole driving goal would be to make a deconstruction of it and the folly of man.
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Spinachcat

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2022, 06:14:51 PM »
Maybe the leftards are right that "Words are violence" because everything I hear about this Radiant Citadel is so dumb it's painful.



Brooding Paladin

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2022, 06:48:07 PM »
I'm wondering if we'll ever know that for a fact.  What I mean is, they don't have to declare sales success, etc. so they could just declare it was their best selling accessory ever and how would we know?

Zalman

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2022, 06:50:21 PM »
Quote
(Oooh -- now I'm imagining a city driven by a vast web of necromantic talismans, where the currency everybody uses is literally drawn from one's own life force, and you can never buy more than what you decide you can afford to sacrifice in bodily vitality and health.)

This is actually a pretty cool idea. It's still nightmare fuel, but with the right rules in place, it can make a pretty neat alternative to money.
Assuming everyone's soul has the same "weight" or "worth," and you MUST store souls within your own body, people could trade soul fragments back and forth as if it were currency. You can never buy more than you're worth, and you can never have more soul fragments than what makes up a full soul (i.e., you body can't have more than one soul).

This is very similar to what they did in the film In Time. In that movie, the amount of time you have until death is the currency (but there's no limit to the amount of time you can accumulate).
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mightybrain

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2022, 06:56:22 PM »
It sounds like they made their very best attempt at creating a genuine Utopia. Which in my experience is they very best way to create hell on earth. It could be an accidental masterpiece of a setting. I had no interest before, but now I'm intrigued.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 06:08:41 PM by mightybrain »

Ghostmaker

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2022, 07:53:56 PM »
This place seems like a lovely point for a demonic invasion.
The Ethereal Plane alone is host to some nasty critters.

I'm sure it has a 'barrier against invasion' or somesuch, ripped off from Sigil again.

Valatar

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2022, 08:42:55 PM »
"Highly trained local guards" hinges a lot on whether the book is written with a reliable narrator.  As Pundit pointed out, a lot of recent commune-wannabees have billed their "community safety" people as being calm and reliable peacekeepers when they seem to turn out to actually be blindingly incompetent and ineffectual or trigger-happy thugs that make the worst cops look golden in comparison.  Assuming the book is written with an omniscient and reliable narrator and this city does literally have highly-trained local guards that aren't just a euphemism for the local organized crime people breaking legs whenever someone raises a stink in their turf, then, well.  I've seen less-realistic conceits in fantasy settings before.

I do consider Sigil a rather more realistic multiversal city, though, where only the threat of immediate painful dismemberment is keeping the evil factions from just running roughshod over everyone and even then an individual's safety hinges on knowing the right people and having eyes on the back of their head.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2022, 09:11:06 PM »
Having watched the video, I'm reminded of back in my teens when I went to go see The Last Temptation of Christ with a group from my church and discuss it afterwards. While we were in line, there were a bunch of protesters handing out pamphlets about how awful and blasphemous the movie is - without having seen it.

In general, there's plenty to criticize in Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but Pundit is explicit that he hasn't read it, and is just going by rumors he hears about it.

He also does a lot of declaring what the creators really think (like "they hate white people") and then clarifying that they don't say those things, but he just knows the impurity in their hearts.

Well, for example, it seems that when adventurers first arrive at the citadel they are immediately taxed, but that tax can be in coins, or jewels or gems, or in objects of values, magic items, or (I think) services. So the implication in the setting is that money is not considered a sole form of currency at least.

We're also told that all power and resources are distributed equitably.
Additionally, that everyone in the city receives a universal basic income.
And that health care is socialized (including resurrection spells, made easier by the fact that because the spire is full of the Power of Leftism or whatever, healing in the citadel is always at max effect and with not material component requirements).

So like most of human history even after money was invented? Even today, if you can't pay your taxes but you own stuff the government steals your stuff to cover the taxes plus their expenses in stealing your stuff.

Off course they have a magical NHS, one that works as intended because it's magical, and off course healing doesn't require material components in their commie utopia, these idiots think all things just fall from heaven.

Someone who creates a setting gets to define how magic powers work in a given world, as well as larger cosmology. Within their world, they are right. For example, in Pundit's Lion & Dragon - the monotheistic Church of the Unconquered Sun and the God of Law is defined as good, and the forces of chaos opposed to it are evil and a threat to human survival. Heresy and heathenism are "a direct threat to humankind in this life and the next".

Overall, the Radiant Citadel itself is a left-leaning utopia - but it seems the equivalent of fantasy nordic country or similar, rather than a communist country like Cuba. I don't think it works well as a gaming setting. It seems like a weak wrapper element to bring together the anthology of 13 adventures each in their own mini-setting, and it's my least favorite part of the book. However, that doesn't justify making up false stuff about it.

1) Pundit's charges of community policing are the most off-base. The book specifies a highly trained guard who deal with violence and inspectors for non-violent crime.

2) There's no suggestion that money isn't important or that *all* resources are distributed. Indeed, the multiple mentions of taxes, tariffs, and tolls scaled to means contradict this.

3) As one example, healing isn't free for anyone except the poorest. As the book puts it, "The House of Convalescence turns no one away; healing is priced according to one's means, and the poorest are served without charge." That could be called socialist because pricing is according to means, but people still have to pay. Historically, many church-run institutions would help heal the poor as well as provide other services, tithing members to pay for it. Alms is a common practice in Christianity and one of the pillars of Islam.

2.- How would they distribute resources without taxes? You have to steal from me before you can pocket most and then give pennies back while signaling your virtue and magnanimity.

3.- To each according to his needs and from each according to his capacity... But this isn't Commie-Sigil.

Alms ARE voluntary, TAX funded anything aren't alms because you can't refuse to pay taxes.
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Eirikrautha

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2022, 09:14:54 PM »

Let me understand. You're trying to claim that

1) "a highly trained guard"
2) "highly trained local guards"

mean utterly different things. Where (1) evidently means a centralized police force, while (2) is enforcement by street gangs?!?

I never claimed that there was a single centralized police force, but I think "highly trained local guards" does not imply street gangs.

Uhhh, you are both missing the point.  What does "highly trained" even mean in this context?  Are we talking about magical SWAT teams?  Trained in what?  Conflict de-escalation?  Negotiations and conflict resolution?  Or trained in "Kill People and Break Shit"?  It's a vague and nonsensical statement as written, because it doesn't specify how they "handle" the violence.  Kill the perpetrators?  Arrest them with non-lethal tactics and means?  Or are they "highly trained" in ballet, and they just dance around you until you stop?  It's like every other leftist fantasy; they know what they want, but have no idea how to actually accomplish it.

And, to Pundit's point about community policing, the very next line states "... citizens are expected to proactively intervene if needed."  Sounds like vigilante justice, eh?  Or compulsory service ("Why am I under arrest?  That dude started slaying people, and I headed for cover.  What do you mean, I had a duty to get involved?").  Or, more likely, the people on the street are expected to gang up on the perps to help law enforcement.  Hmmm, where have I heard that before?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2022, 10:07:24 PM by Eirikrautha »

Thorn Drumheller

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2022, 09:53:05 PM »
I'm wondering if we'll ever know that for a fact.  What I mean is, they don't have to declare sales success, etc. so they could just declare it was their best selling accessory ever and how would we know?

So this is an interesting question. I don't know if WotC declares sales. What I do know is how much of the crap is sitting on the shelf at my stupid local game store, which is more a board game store, which is okay but anyway.

So is it a case of the store ordering more than the demand? My local store is full of woke people. There's also a chain game store in my area that's had the same copy of Thirsty Sword Lesbians on the shelf for a while too. So take that for what it's worth.

But from my local stores, and seeing various posts on reddit (I know, I know, it's a sewer too), it seems like there's a lot of stock of the last few releases on shelves.
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Brooding Paladin

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Re: Radiant Citadel - Things WoTC Doesn't Want D&D Gamers To Know
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2022, 11:43:37 PM »
I'm wondering if we'll ever know that for a fact.  What I mean is, they don't have to declare sales success, etc. so they could just declare it was their best selling accessory ever and how would we know?

So this is an interesting question. I don't know if WotC declares sales. What I do know is how much of the crap is sitting on the shelf at my stupid local game store, which is more a board game store, which is okay but anyway.

So is it a case of the store ordering more than the demand? My local store is full of woke people. There's also a chain game store in my area that's had the same copy of Thirsty Sword Lesbians on the shelf for a while too. So take that for what it's worth.

But from my local stores, and seeing various posts on reddit (I know, I know, it's a sewer too), it seems like there's a lot of stock of the last few releases on shelves.

Well, that's certainly one way.  A bit anecdotal and localized maybe, but could be telling.  I need to get myself to more hobby stores.  No good ones near me.  And talking up the owners could probably reveal whether they intend to order more, can't sell what they have, etc.  I guess word gets out one way or another.  I doubt anyone will cast direct aspersion because "reasons," but maybe if they have to do extra gymnastics to make sense of it, make it work, etc. that could be telling as well.