This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid  (Read 23264 times)

Shrieking Banshee

  • Narcissist Undead
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2507
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #135 on: April 06, 2021, 04:57:19 PM »
Double Post

Brad

  • Semper Qvantvm Potes
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3630
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #136 on: April 06, 2021, 05:18:20 PM »
@Brad: Are you referring to v1 of Deadlands where the CSA abolished slavery on their own, but continued to fight the drawn out war? Or are you referring to v2 of Deadlands where the CSA is defeated, but the Civil War took longer?

I'm not that familiar with the 2nd edition; I liked 1st obviously, but always felt the slavery issue was just whitewashed to make the setting more palatable to gamers. I have no real, fundamental problem with that because it's a game, but to think it makes sense historically is dumb. I mean, I like the episodes of Star Trek where they go to an alien planet that has gangsters, so it's not like I honestly care too much. Then again, Deadlands just went okay yeah slavery yeah yeah okay now you get to play a gambler who can actually do magic! It wasn't a central point of the game, unlike whatever this current game seems to be doing.

Il argue that wanting a sci-fi universe but with Native American trappings isn't necessarily in any way wrong. It's a kitche idea that doesn't inherently have any real issues.
Its more just an idea brought to prominence because of current year politics and the like. A lighthearted kitche cartoony version of a real-world element isn't necessarily problematic, its just how its creators present it as a work with any sort of cultural merit.

I'd say it would be just a mediocre idea I wouldn't be interested in (because I hate the idea of spirituality somehow lending itself to ecological balance), if the creators weren't pinning it as some work of cultural importance. To a certain degree, I feel this is just cynical opportunism that makes money through controversy. This sort of product wouldn't really make anybody notice if it was a Christian Wakanda or a Scandinavian Wakanda.

By virtue of even discussing it I think we kinda just work as free marketing for mediocrity. We are the 'haters' that SJWs need to give money to mediocre projects like this.

Well isn't that the whole point? It seems to be made specifically to drive home some sort of agenda about the WHITE DEVIL, not, "Hey, it'd be cool if Indians got actual magical powers and the Eurotards never came over on a boat." No issue with that fundamentally, I do have a problem with it pretending to be anywhere close to historically accurate, which quite a lot of people have pointed out is pure stupidity. I can deal with stupidity if it's fun and well done, but this new product seems to take itself too seriously.
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11748
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #137 on: April 06, 2021, 05:45:56 PM »
Your assumption is that the advances are because of real-world beliefs about history. i.e. Stan Lee really believed that an African country would develop super-science if only not for white people. But in super-science settings like Wakanda and Makasing (from Coyote & Crow), the premise isn't that they realistically developed super-science. The super-science comes from overtly fictional divergence from the real world, like vibranium and/or space-borne psychic powers.

A better parallel might be a Marvel Universe alternate timeline - what if the ancient Norse inherited technology from the Asgardian aliens who had lead them in the past? Then there could be a viking-themed super-science world with dragon-prowed nuclear aircraft carriers, power-armored berserkers and so forth. Giving vikings *fictional* Asgardian alien technology isn't the same thing as believing that the real-world vikings were genetically superior supermen who lost out only because they were Christianized.

I don’t think that’s what the Coyote and Crow crew are doing here. They aren’t just imagining a world where Native Americans avoided the impacts of colonization through super science. They are eliminating the other.

This is mixing completely separate topics. Your original claim was that the super-science was because of the lack of white people. i.e. Stan Lee hated white people, and believed in the real world that Africans like Wakandans would develop super-science if only they weren't conquered by whites. As opposed to... Stan Lee thought it would be a cool and fun fictional reality if there was an African country that developed super-science because of a fictional super-metal.

As for eliminating the other - I don't think that is inherently a bad thing. Not every setting needs Hispanic representation, nor is it "genocide" if the setting doesn't have them. Pendragon isn't flawed and anti-Asian if it doesn't have Asian people represented. Sengoku isn't flawed and anti-white because it doesn't have white people in it. If a *fictional* reality doesn't have America invaded, that's not a real-world crime of genocide of Hispanic people as you describe. I can think of a number of "Lost World" type settings that have human groups developing in isolation - and they are not inherently racist (though it is possible for them to be).

VisionStorm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2184
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #138 on: April 06, 2021, 05:49:08 PM »
A better parallel might be a Marvel Universe alternate timeline - what if the ancient Norse inherited technology from the Asgardian aliens who had lead them in the past? Then there could be a viking-themed super-science world with dragon-prowed nuclear aircraft carriers, power-armored berserkers and so forth. Giving vikings *fictional* Asgardian alien technology isn't the same thing as believing that the real-world vikings were genetically superior supermen who lost out only because they were Christianized.

That would actually be a cooler concept than Coyote and Crow, because it's at least plausible. If the concept had been that Quetzalcoatl came back to Earth with an alien race and gave Mesoamerican tribes technology, so you could have a futuristic sci-fi world with Native Americans in powerarmor riding rainbow colored flying snakes, it would've been fucking awesome. But instead it's all this wishy-washy BS about a magic rock falling from space and setting the Europeans back, so they couldn't conquer the New World, while Native Americans skipped metal-working and the Industrial Age, and went straight to futuristic super science right out of the stone age. Because "psychic powers". Which apparently make people want to discover advanced science and develop high-technology when they can already do all of that with just magic.

Shrieking Banshee

  • Narcissist Undead
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2507
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #139 on: April 06, 2021, 05:55:56 PM »
Well isn't that the whole point?

Reading the Kickstarter....It isn't. To a certain degree, it's actually respectable.
Quote
Everyone involved in Coyote and Crow is deeply passionate about our game and we felt that it was time for Indigenous folks to have a game that didn't see them as secondary, as adversaries, or intertwined with colonialism.

I think its pretty respectable to want a game with natives just doing 'native' stuff with somekind of magic/sci-fi skin or whatever. It explicitly doesn't have 'The evil army of invading white men'. I find that a very respectable goal to celebrate your own culture or iterate on it with kitsch fun stuff, without needing to depend on an oppressor / oppressed narrative.

I'm not nordic but imagine like....'Vikings IN SPAAACE!' type story. What happened to the rest of the world? Doesn't particularly matter. Why are nords from the 600s a society that became a stellar empire? I donno. And that's fine.

It's actually a product where there is outright no victim/dominator mentality. That's incredibly refreshing. And very not SJW.
And to a certain degree, I don't see a problem with some level of revisionism for the harsh truths. You don't need every setting to go into the graphic details that underpin the horrific serf conditions if its about a mystical royalty for example.
I don't think LOTR is an advocate for eugenics because it's a setting where there just are bloodlines of royalty that are more important/ better.

The only real eye-rolling part of this it plays into intersectionality crap, and its still a product largely made of spite.
Quote
Our team features people from across the LGBTQIA spectrum, including two spirit folks. It's not even a question that this game is political. If you have a problem with a game where there are no people of European descent represented, than this game is probably not for you.

I actually think that this is a product more on the right track of how to handle this sort of idea if the people behind it weren't doing it out of spite, and had to check off all the other intersectional checkboxes.

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7399
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #140 on: April 06, 2021, 06:07:13 PM »
Your assumption is that the advances are because of real-world beliefs about history. i.e. Stan Lee really believed that an African country would develop super-science if only not for white people. But in super-science settings like Wakanda and Makasing (from Coyote & Crow), the premise isn't that they realistically developed super-science. The super-science comes from overtly fictional divergence from the real world, like vibranium and/or space-borne psychic powers.

A better parallel might be a Marvel Universe alternate timeline - what if the ancient Norse inherited technology from the Asgardian aliens who had lead them in the past? Then there could be a viking-themed super-science world with dragon-prowed nuclear aircraft carriers, power-armored berserkers and so forth. Giving vikings *fictional* Asgardian alien technology isn't the same thing as believing that the real-world vikings were genetically superior supermen who lost out only because they were Christianized.

I don’t think that’s what the Coyote and Crow crew are doing here. They aren’t just imagining a world where Native Americans avoided the impacts of colonization through super science. They are eliminating the other.

This is mixing completely separate topics. Your original claim was that the super-science was because of the lack of white people. i.e. Stan Lee hated white people, and believed in the real world that Africans like Wakandans would develop super-science if only they weren't conquered by whites. As opposed to... Stan Lee thought it would be a cool and fun fictional reality if there was an African country that developed super-science because of a fictional super-metal.

As for eliminating the other - I don't think that is inherently a bad thing. Not every setting needs Hispanic representation, nor is it "genocide" if the setting doesn't have them. Pendragon isn't flawed and anti-Asian if it doesn't have Asian people represented. Sengoku isn't flawed and anti-white because it doesn't have white people in it. If a *fictional* reality doesn't have America invaded, that's not a real-world crime of genocide of Hispanic people as you describe. I can think of a number of "Lost World" type settings that have human groups developing in isolation - and they are not inherently racist (though it is possible for them to be).

LOL, so fantasy settings of a far flung (and fictional) past are the same as a setting where by the hand of manitou the evul white man never sets foot in the Americas?

Do you really believe that or are you just bullshitting to defend a woke product?

Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

This Guy
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • ?
  • Posts: 642
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #141 on: April 06, 2021, 06:30:40 PM »
They're both fiction, and therefore lies, so yes.
I don't want to play with you.

Ratman_tf

  • Alt-Reich Shitlord
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8330
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #142 on: April 06, 2021, 07:25:23 PM »
@Brad: Are you referring to v1 of Deadlands where the CSA abolished slavery on their own, but continued to fight the drawn out war? Or are you referring to v2 of Deadlands where the CSA is defeated, but the Civil War took longer?

I'm not that familiar with the 2nd edition; I liked 1st obviously, but always felt the slavery issue was just whitewashed to make the setting more palatable to gamers. I have no real, fundamental problem with that because it's a game, but to think it makes sense historically is dumb. I mean, I like the episodes of Star Trek where they go to an alien planet that has gangsters, so it's not like I honestly care too much.

I can't be the only fan who wanted a TNG epsiode where the Enterprise D runs into the Iotians, who now are crusing around the galaxy in TOS era uniforms and gear.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

wmarshal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • w
  • Posts: 631
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #143 on: April 06, 2021, 07:33:17 PM »
Your assumption is that the advances are because of real-world beliefs about history. i.e. Stan Lee really believed that an African country would develop super-science if only not for white people. But in super-science settings like Wakanda and Makasing (from Coyote & Crow), the premise isn't that they realistically developed super-science. The super-science comes from overtly fictional divergence from the real world, like vibranium and/or space-borne psychic powers.

A better parallel might be a Marvel Universe alternate timeline - what if the ancient Norse inherited technology from the Asgardian aliens who had lead them in the past? Then there could be a viking-themed super-science world with dragon-prowed nuclear aircraft carriers, power-armored berserkers and so forth. Giving vikings *fictional* Asgardian alien technology isn't the same thing as believing that the real-world vikings were genetically superior supermen who lost out only because they were Christianized.

I don’t think that’s what the Coyote and Crow crew are doing here. They aren’t just imagining a world where Native Americans avoided the impacts of colonization through super science. They are eliminating the other.

This is mixing completely separate topics. Your original claim was that the super-science was because of the lack of white people. i.e. Stan Lee hated white people, and believed in the real world that Africans like Wakandans would develop super-science if only they weren't conquered by whites. As opposed to... Stan Lee thought it would be a cool and fun fictional reality if there was an African country that developed super-science because of a fictional super-metal.

As for eliminating the other - I don't think that is inherently a bad thing. Not every setting needs Hispanic representation, nor is it "genocide" if the setting doesn't have them. Pendragon isn't flawed and anti-Asian if it doesn't have Asian people represented. Sengoku isn't flawed and anti-white because it doesn't have white people in it. If a *fictional* reality doesn't have America invaded, that's not a real-world crime of genocide of Hispanic people as you describe. I can think of a number of "Lost World" type settings that have human groups developing in isolation - and they are not inherently racist (though it is possible for them to be).
The development of super science isn’t a direct consequence of a lack of white people. I apologize if I came across as saying that somehow the mere presence of white people somehow emits a nullification field that prevents super science at all, and that super science would spring into being a priori if there were no white people. I do think that the setting has the Native Americans able to develop their super science because there are no white people introducing new diseases, new technology, etc. that overrun and displace the Native Americans. In Coyote and Crow their super science used by the Native Americans must be pure to meet their vision. Their version was of Native Americans can’t develop super science, and then apply it to interactions with other cultures because that would betray the racial purity of their vision. They don’t want Native Americans learning to apply their super science to firearms because that violates their vision. They could have achieved something similar by placing the setting 100,000 years ago, or by putting their setting in a hallow earth untouched by the surface world. Those won’t do because part of their kick is eliminating the Other. It’s pure-blood style racism which not only imagines a racially pure homeland, but eliminates the Other in the current/near future world.

No, not every setting needs representation, but that’s not the world of the Woke that the creators and backers live in. They certainly do cast aspersions on Pendragon and similar faux European settings for not reflecting every identity. But Coyote and Crow go beyond centering Native Americans. What they do is akin to Pendragon saying we’re going to do without there being any Jews or Moors because we have an alternate history that conveniently writes them out completely.

I’m not claiming Coyote and Crow are committing real world crimes. By that measure I suppose you’d give Racial Holy War a pass, since the game doesn’t commit real world crimes. Myfarog is cool too in your view since no real world crimes are committed. Racist screeds are all good fun so long as the game itself doesn’t commit a real world crime?

Taking deliberate steps to eliminate the Other so that one can live out one’s racist fantasy is indeed an inherently a bad thing because it is a dehumanizing action. It’s essentially no different than a white suprematist writing a setting where all the other races are conveniently disappeared one way or another.

DocJones

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1081
  • theofascist
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #144 on: April 06, 2021, 07:40:50 PM »
This is supposedly a fantasy game with a fictional culture.   
And yet the author will has different instructions/rules based on the supposed race of the players?!

While no one can control what end users do with a product, there will be specific instructions and guidance given to Native and non-Native players in the book.

I don't recall ever seeing specific instructions/rules in D&D (and most other games) for Native and non-Native players. 
Should players that have roots in Africa or Asia require specific instructions/rules and guidance in order to properly play characters in a largely inspired European medieval fantasy RPG?
What is supposed to happen when a black player crosses the line and portrays an English knight in Lion & Dragon as a negative stereotype?
Should they be cancelled on social media?  /sarc


« Last Edit: April 06, 2021, 07:42:31 PM by DocJones »

wmarshal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • w
  • Posts: 631
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #145 on: April 06, 2021, 07:52:24 PM »
This is supposedly a fantasy game with a fictional culture.   
And yet the author will has different instructions/rules based on the supposed race of the players?!

While no one can control what end users do with a product, there will be specific instructions and guidance given to Native and non-Native players in the book.

I don't recall ever seeing specific instructions/rules in D&D (and most other games) for Native and non-Native players. 
Should players that have roots in Africa or Asia require specific instructions/rules and guidance in order to properly play characters in a largely inspired European medieval fantasy RPG?
What is supposed to happen when a black player crosses the line and portrays an English knight in Lion & Dragon as a negative stereotype?
Should they be cancelled on social media?  /sarc

These Woke are racist as hell. There shall be a correct way for Natives to play the game, and there shall be a different correct way for non-Natives to play the game.

Ratman_tf

  • Alt-Reich Shitlord
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8330
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #146 on: April 06, 2021, 08:08:49 PM »
This is supposedly a fantasy game with a fictional culture.   
And yet the author will has different instructions/rules based on the supposed race of the players?!

While no one can control what end users do with a product, there will be specific instructions and guidance given to Native and non-Native players in the book.

I don't recall ever seeing specific instructions/rules in D&D (and most other games) for Native and non-Native players. 
Should players that have roots in Africa or Asia require specific instructions/rules and guidance in order to properly play characters in a largely inspired European medieval fantasy RPG?
What is supposed to happen when a black player crosses the line and portrays an English knight in Lion & Dragon as a negative stereotype?
Should they be cancelled on social media?  /sarc

Yeah, that's a new one to me. While most setting specific RPGs have sections on how to run the campaign, none that I know of have segregated their advice.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Ghostmaker

  • Chlorine trifluoride
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4013
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #147 on: April 06, 2021, 08:15:49 PM »
This is supposedly a fantasy game with a fictional culture.   
And yet the author will has different instructions/rules based on the supposed race of the players?!

While no one can control what end users do with a product, there will be specific instructions and guidance given to Native and non-Native players in the book.

I don't recall ever seeing specific instructions/rules in D&D (and most other games) for Native and non-Native players. 
Should players that have roots in Africa or Asia require specific instructions/rules and guidance in order to properly play characters in a largely inspired European medieval fantasy RPG?
What is supposed to happen when a black player crosses the line and portrays an English knight in Lion & Dragon as a negative stereotype?
Should they be cancelled on social media?  /sarc

These Woke are racist as hell. There shall be a correct way for Natives to play the game, and there shall be a different correct way for non-Natives to play the game.
Here's my correct way to play this game.

*dumps the book in the trash*

Who's up for some Battletech? :)

ScytheSong

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 132
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #148 on: April 06, 2021, 08:28:26 PM »
Here's my correct way to play this game.

*dumps the book in the trash*

Who's up for some Battletech? :)

Considering BattleTech isn't even an RPG in my world, no thank you. I made some characters for MechWarrior back when it first came out, though. :P

Spinachcat

  • Toxic SocioCat
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 14805
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #149 on: April 07, 2021, 12:17:49 AM »
While no one can control what end users do with a product, there will be specific instructions and guidance given to Native and non-Native players in the book.

I scalp Timmy's character with my lazer throwing axe!