Quote from: RPGPundit on April 02, 2021, 05:27:02 PM
No, Wakanda is not racist against white people. But settings where "the white people are all dead/missing/unaccounted-for and so we created a SUPER SOCIETY" is racist against white people.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 04, 2021, 02:48:37 PM
Yes, Wakanda has partly got the same anti-white fantasy (I mean, we KNOW what happened to lands that weren't conquered by Europeans in Africa and Asia: nothing special; not one turned into an Enlightened semi-utopian super-state, and the ones that fared best were the ones who enacted huge reforms by themselves to become MORE LIKE EUROPEAN CIVILIZATION and thus enjoy the benefits of those advances), but at least it doesn't make all the Europeans die from a meteor or just 'no one knows' (which is what fascists say when they make someone disappear) like Coyote & Crow does

OK, so you're changing your position on Wakanda here - or at least clarifying that Wakanda is also anti-white fantasy - but it's less extreme anti-white fantasy. It seems that this is because for Wakanda, it's just one small African country that wasn't invaded and developed advances, rather than the whole continent.

Your logic is that the fictional advance of vibranium is anti-white, because the setting should stick to history where technological advances come from Europe. I would ask - what about setting where non-historical advances happen in Europe, like Space 1889 where fictional science in Europe gives them massive advances like spaceships in the 1800s? If Wakandan vibranium is anti-white fantasy, doesn't that imply that fictional advances for Europeans are white supremacist fantasy?

Fictional elements like the Space 1889's ether drive, or vibranium, or the Awis -- these aren't inherently racial. Yes, they change the balance of how different civilizations balanced compared to history - but there are lots of reasons one might be interested to explore that, not just racial supremacy. For example, my friend Madeline ran an Amber Diceless campaign that for a while was in a shadow where the nazis won WWII with supernatural aid. I don't think this means that Madeline was a nazi and was promoting nazi supremacy. It was just an interesting world to game in.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 04, 2021, 02:48:37 PM
I notice you didn't respond to my question to you, though, so I'll repeat it:
Imagine if someone (maybe Varg) made an alt-history game where he invented some calamity that made all the Jews die or disappear in the middle ages, and then claimed that in the 21st century Super State where the Jew-free Aryans were able to bring about a worldwide alliance now expanding out to the stars.
Would or would that not be racist?

You're positing a cause-and-effect here. In your hypothetical, *because* there were no Jews, therefore the Aryan Europeans were able to create a utopian Super State. And sure, if that was explicitly the premise of the game, yes, that would be racist.

But there are tons of histories that produce skewed results compared to reality - where certain civilizations are more dominant, like the Nazis winning WWII which is a common alternate history. While Nazi authors may well write alternate histories where the Nazis won, there are also other authors who have written such alternate timelines with different intent.

Wakanda - I got the impression that the director of the Black Panther film was a bit racist (I still loved the film), but I think Kim's right that the concept of Wakanda as a super-science magitech African country is not inherently racist; neither is Space: 1889 (though both have been called such, Space: 1889 more for being supposedly pro-Imperialist).

Democracy - definitely rare and unusual IRL (& I like that Wakanda is resolutely non-Democratic). Hunter gatherer bands all over the world are highly egalitarian and function quite a lot like participatory democracies, but normally as agriculture develops societies 'advance' through chieftainships, kingships, empires, becoming progressively less and less democratic. Some unusual features of Europe/Europeans seem to have resulted in the frequent retention of relatively high egalitarianism far beyond the hunter-gatherer stage.

Quote from: S'mon on April 05, 2021, 03:23:47 AM
Wakanda - I got the impression that the director of the Black Panther film was a bit racist (I still loved the film), but I think Kim's right that the concept of Wakanda as a super-science magitech African country is not inherently racist; neither is Space: 1889 (though both have been called such, Space: 1889 more for being supposedly pro-Imperialist).

Democracy - definitely rare and unusual IRL (& I like that Wakanda is resolutely non-Democratic). Hunter gatherer bands all over the world are highly egalitarian and function quite a lot like participatory democracies, but normally as agriculture develops societies 'advance' through chieftainships, kingships, empires, becoming progressively less and less democratic. Some unusual features of Europe/Europeans seem to have resulted in the frequent retention of relatively high egalitarianism far beyond the hunter-gatherer stage.

So democracy is a primitive holdover from hunter-gatherer lifestyles? That's the most interesting and ironic way I've seen it put.

So Wakanda's advancement to monarchy is ironically worse than not advancing to monarchy.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 05, 2021, 10:23:27 AM
So democracy is a primitive holdover from hunter-gatherer lifestyles?

Yeah, seems to be.

I'm guessing low population density is a factor for democratic elements + settled agriculture. The strong warrior culture ethos of the European peoples may also be a factor, and the idea that being a warrior meant you had a right to speak freely in the assembly/thing. But I don't think anyone really knows.

Quote from: S'mon on April 05, 2021, 10:53:56 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 05, 2021, 10:23:27 AM
So democracy is a primitive holdover from hunter-gatherer lifestyles?

Yeah, seems to be.

I'm guessing low population density is a factor for democratic elements + settled agriculture. The strong warrior culture ethos of the European peoples may also be a factor, and the idea that being a warrior meant you had a right to speak freely in the assembly/thing. But I don't think anyone really knows.

Characterizing it as a holdover seems off, since medieval Europe was less democratic/egalitarian than either modern democracies or hunter-gatherer societies. Indeed, while there is some, there isn't much difference in egalitarianism between most of medieval Europe and medieval China, for example. There was the Icelandic democracy, but that was very much the exception and not the rule.

I think it's worth looking at the more egalitarian exceptions in other societies. While the European Enlightenment was unique, it's always tricky to extrapolate from a sample size of one. The Haudenosaunee (aka Iroquois) were agricultural and warlike, but also relatively egalitarian and had a functional confederacy of five nations that was an influential model for the United States.

https://www.history.com/news/iroquois-confederacy-influence-us-constitution

18th century Korea was a monarchy that was very insular, but there was an internal reform movement known today as Silhak - that included steps towards the abolition of slavery and reduction in the power of nobles (yangban). It's worth noting that Silhak thinkers did not oppose monarchy. They tended to favor a more powerful monarchy, actually, but more egalitarianism among the main population. The yangban who were seen as more oppressive to the common people than the king.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silhak

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 05, 2021, 10:23:27 AM

Quote from: S'mon on April 05, 2021, 03:23:47 AM
Wakanda - I got the impression that the director of the Black Panther film was a bit racist (I still loved the film), but I think Kim's right that the concept of Wakanda as a super-science magitech African country is not inherently racist; neither is Space: 1889 (though both have been called such, Space: 1889 more for being supposedly pro-Imperialist).

Democracy - definitely rare and unusual IRL (& I like that Wakanda is resolutely non-Democratic). Hunter gatherer bands all over the world are highly egalitarian and function quite a lot like participatory democracies, but normally as agriculture develops societies 'advance' through chieftainships, kingships, empires, becoming progressively less and less democratic. Some unusual features of Europe/Europeans seem to have resulted in the frequent retention of relatively high egalitarianism far beyond the hunter-gatherer stage.

So democracy is a primitive holdover from hunter-gatherer lifestyles? That's the most interesting and ironic way I've seen it put.

So Wakanda's advancement to monarchy is ironically worse than not advancing to monarchy.

Democratic governance is not a holdover from hunter-gatherer/small village lifestyles. It is something that gets abandoned for theocracies and monarchies as the city-state develops. Only in a few instances does democratic governance arise again at either the city-state or state level. Throughout history autocratic governance is the norm. The proliferation of democratic governance is a relatively recent development. Wakanda isn't "worse" for advancing to a monarchy, they're just being par for the course in the big scheme of things. Wakanda not continuing to advance through monarchy to democratic governance could be viewed as a negative, but Wakanda is also an isolationist (xenophobic even) society that is inherently small 'c' conservative and slow to change. It's also a comic book country intended as a background for a superhero, so I'm not sure  how deep we want to get into it's development and interaction with the wider world.

"Hey Wakanda, there are a lot of slavers running around your borders, think you might want to do something to address that?" — "Nah, we're good."

"Hey Wakanda, there are a lot of Europeans turning your neighbors into colonies, think you might want to do something to address that?" — "Nah, we're good."

"Hey Wakanda, there are a lot of German and Italian fascists taking over the world and running about Africa, think you might want to do something to address that?" — "Nah, we're good."

"Hey Wakanda, with your advanced technology you could help the world cure cancer, treat AIDS and so much more, think you might want to lend a hand with that?" — "Nah, we're good."

I think it best to just interact with Wakanda at a very superficial level with it being the home of a cool superhero, and not dig too deep. Wakanda, other than being a country of origin for a black superhero, probably wasn't intended as a deep political statement in itself when created. Black Panther himself was the political statement.

While we're on the topic of why the European conquest of the Americas was so successful, I have a theory that the Reconquista was much more important than what was taught me in school. Granada falls in August, and Columbus sails in October of 1492. If there weren't a bunch of out-of-work soldiers who were prone to see any conflict as an us-or-them for their very souls, I think there would have been a very different result in the New World. If anyone has done any actual scholarship on the topic, I'd be interested to know about it..

I often get the impression that popular historical discussions are cherrypicking to serve a point (cultural posturing) rather than analyzing the whole of recorded human history to receive insights about what innovations are likely for a civilization to develop.

To use one example: we think of the Aztecs as uniquely cruel and evil in human history, while ignoring or downplaying comparable cultures who practiced human sacrifice or other atrocities (e.g. European witch hunts, the Inquisition, public executions) and not taking into account that the Flower Wars were a recent (and unsustainable) development... like every period of atrocity and religious reformation in recorded history.

That's equivalent to assuming that, say, since the Axis Powers were fascists and committed atrocities then they had always been evil... even though those were recent developments that only lasted a few decades and even people within those regimes disagreed with what happened.

The Aztecs even engaged in book burning to erase all evidence of their history prior to the Flower Wars.

All this important political and cultural leadup is completely absent from mainstream school history textbooks.

Does anyone here knows Evan Winter's books? He does seem to have built an African (well, Zambian)-centered fantasy setting, but I never read him.

https://threecrowsmagazine.com/interview-evan-winter/

Greetings!

Hmmm...in the Middle Ages, the Republic of Novgorod, in northern Russia, embraced many Democratic traditions. The Veche was a democratic assembly of normal citizens that elected the Prince of the Republic. In addition to the people electing their ruling Princes, The Posadnik was the mayor of the city of Novgorod, which was also elected by the Veche. Tysiatskii's were an important local military commanders which were elected by the Veche. The Republic of Novgorod organized and maintained such democratic traditions and institutions for some 450 years.

There are also various elements of Democratic thought within the Germanic tribes. If enough people--ordinary people--opposed a Chieftain, the Chieftain was retired, exiled, or killed, and replaced with a chieftain that had more regard and respect for the people. The point being, Germanic peoples were accustomed to enjoying personal freedom, liberty, respect, and protections of traditional tribal laws. Such protections applied to men and women alike.

So, there are certainly more influences of democratic ideals than just from Iceland.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: CRKrueger on April 04, 2021, 08:29:30 PM
Ever since Shadowrun, Native American futurism has been interesting to me.  I kind of doubt this game will be worth it, but will take a look if it ever hits the Trove.  I'm thinking the White "Cherokee" Connor Alexander is going to take his million dollars and vanish, but who knows.

Are you trying to suggest he's somehow faking being Cherokee like Elizabeth Warren style??

Quote from: SHARK on April 05, 2021, 04:53:52 PM
Greetings!

Hmmm...in the Middle Ages, the Republic of Novgorod, in northern Russia, embraced many Democratic traditions. The Veche was a democratic assembly of normal citizens that elected the Prince of the Republic. In addition to the people electing their ruling Princes, The Posadnik was the mayor of the city of Novgorod, which was also elected by the Veche. Tysiatskii's were an important local military commanders which were elected by the Veche. The Republic of Novgorod organized and maintained such democratic traditions and institutions for some 450 years.

There are also various elements of Democratic thought within the Germanic tribes. If enough people--ordinary people--opposed a Chieftain, the Chieftain was retired, exiled, or killed, and replaced with a chieftain that had more regard and respect for the people. The point being, Germanic peoples were accustomed to enjoying personal freedom, liberty, respect, and protections of traditional tribal laws. Such protections applied to men and women alike.

So, there are certainly more influences of democratic ideals than just from Iceland.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Until William the Bastard, the Saxon nobles elected the King. That isn't democracy or it's a very limited democracy but warm-body democracy has been the exception, not the rule. By the way, that's why Harold couldn't have simply given the throne to William if he had promised to, which he probably hadn't.

For that matter, the Athenians chose most of their office-holders by lottery among the citizenry, which was a very small subset of the population. Yet we call them the first democracy.

Quote from: jhkim on April 05, 2021, 02:06:11 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 02, 2021, 05:27:02 PM
No, Wakanda is not racist against white people. But settings where "the white people are all dead/missing/unaccounted-for and so we created a SUPER SOCIETY" is racist against white people.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 04, 2021, 02:48:37 PM
Yes, Wakanda has partly got the same anti-white fantasy (I mean, we KNOW what happened to lands that weren't conquered by Europeans in Africa and Asia: nothing special; not one turned into an Enlightened semi-utopian super-state, and the ones that fared best were the ones who enacted huge reforms by themselves to become MORE LIKE EUROPEAN CIVILIZATION and thus enjoy the benefits of those advances), but at least it doesn't make all the Europeans die from a meteor or just 'no one knows' (which is what fascists say when they make someone disappear) like Coyote & Crow does

OK, so you're changing your position on Wakanda here - or at least clarifying that Wakanda is also anti-white fantasy - but it's less extreme anti-white fantasy. It seems that this is because for Wakanda, it's just one small African country that wasn't invaded and developed advances, rather than the whole continent.

That right there is absolute bad-faith nonsense on your part. I get it, you're a critical race theory enthusiast aren't you? You think non-white people "can't be racist", correct?
It infuriates you to realize that the hatred of any race that feels resentment at their lot and blames some other race is identical, regardless of what race it is.

Quote
Your logic is that the fictional advance of vibranium is anti-white, because the setting should stick to history where technological advances come from Europe. I would ask - what about setting where non-historical advances happen in Europe, like Space 1889 where fictional science in Europe gives them massive advances like spaceships in the 1800s? If Wakandan vibranium is anti-white fantasy, doesn't that imply that fictional advances for Europeans are white supremacist fantasy?

Man, you must really be feeling desperate because of how sloppy you are getting. "vibranium" is not "anti-white", it is a make believe metal. The anti-whiteness is the suggestion that somehow, if left uncolonized by the Evil White People, non-white races would have developed not just technologies but complex scientific discoveries and social evolution that would have made their cultures Vastly Suprerior to Evil White Men's Culture. When we know that's not the case and would not have been the case based on historical context.

The "Vibranium" there is irrelevant, unless one of the powers of Vibranium was making Wakandans spontaneously know the Western Scientific Method and how to jump-start Western Industrial Revolution as they did. 
Of course, when that's true, it means that stuff like vibranium or other magic-gadgets, if they not only provide a resource but also somehow "enhance" a people to be able to become better than Europeans, is actually SUPER RACIST but NOT the way you think: it's suggesting that Black People or Native Americans or whoever require an artificial deus ex machina to be enhanced because somehow in their native state they would never be the equal to white men.

So is that what the "stuff" in Black Panther, Tikor or Coyote & Crow do?  If so, I think those settings are in some ways more white supremacist than Myfarog.
If not, those settings are obviously racist because they suggest that "we were kings" fantasy that the non-white race in question is actually vastly better mentally and ethically than Europeans and would have created a near Utopia of Supertechnology and Social Justice  if the Evil White Man hadn't come along and ruined it just as it was no doubt about to start happening.

Quote

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 04, 2021, 02:48:37 PM
I notice you didn't respond to my question to you, though, so I'll repeat it:
Imagine if someone (maybe Varg) made an alt-history game where he invented some calamity that made all the Jews die or disappear in the middle ages, and then claimed that in the 21st century Super State where the Jew-free Aryans were able to bring about a worldwide alliance now expanding out to the stars.
Would or would that not be racist?

You're positing a cause-and-effect here. In your hypothetical, *because* there were no Jews, therefore the Aryan Europeans were able to create a utopian Super State. And sure, if that was explicitly the premise of the game, yes, that would be racist.

So if a game setting where DUE TO THE LACK OF JEWS, Aryan Europeans were able to become vastly more advanced and create an ethically superior culture by the 21st century is racist.... How is a setting where DUE TO THE LACK OF WHITE MEN, Native Americans were able to become vastly more advanced and create an ethically superior culture by the 21st not racist?

Please explain the difference.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 05, 2021, 06:11:07 PM

Quote from: CRKrueger on April 04, 2021, 08:29:30 PM
Ever since Shadowrun, Native American futurism has been interesting to me.  I kind of doubt this game will be worth it, but will take a look if it ever hits the Trove.  I'm thinking the White "Cherokee" Connor Alexander is going to take his million dollars and vanish, but who knows.

Are you trying to suggest he's somehow faking being Cherokee like Elizabeth Warren style??

Unlike Warren, who only claimed "ancestry" (which she has, at about 5%, as I understand it), Alexander has said multiple times that he is a "Cherokee Citizen." I'm pretty sure that it would have hit the fan if he was lying about that. Looking at him, he has some facial features that look Cherokee (dear God, his ears!), but adopting a roach (a hairstyle which has specific meaning to some tribes, but *not* Cherokee) is a weird choice for someone who claims to be speaking for a chunk of Native Americans.

Quote from: ScytheSong on April 05, 2021, 12:24:56 PM
While we're on the topic of why the European conquest of the Americas was so successful, I have a theory that the Reconquista was much more important than what was taught me in school. Granada falls in August, and Columbus sails in October of 1492. If there weren't a bunch of out-of-work soldiers who were prone to see any conflict as an us-or-them for their very souls, I think there would have been a very different result in the New World. If anyone has done any actual scholarship on the topic, I'd be interested to know about it..

It is absolutely and totally linked. There was an enormous incentive for the Spanish Crown to mobilize people and especially soldiers to the Americas because soldiers left with nothing else to fight tend to be a destabilizing influence. It was also seen as an ongoing part of Spanish Catholic Fervor.
The biggest historical error we see pushed in modern history talks about the initial Spanish conquests of the America is to suggest that somehow the religious component was just pure lip-service. It absolutely was not. The religious fervor of the Spaniards was one hundred percent real, born out of centuries of a people struggling to hold on to their religion under the threat of "heathen" Moorish invaders, and then fighting to reclaim all of Spain for Christ. They saw the Americas, and the mandate to convert the people of "the Indias" to the true religion as a sacred and holy mandate. Of course there was also enormous profiteering and personal agendas, but pretending the religious element was just 'all an act' rather than the FIRST reason to be there ends up causing an enormous error of understanding of the motivations for the expansion to the Americas.

Especially after discovering the Aztecs.  I mean, consider how the Aztecs would have looked to devout Catholic spaniards: an empire based on the ritual sacrifice of thousands of people a year to demonic-looking gods. It was literally biblical, it was like they were seeing the cult of Moloch or Baal in real life once more. For them, to crusade to put an end to that which was clearly in their eyes an unquestionable evil of the highest nature would have been self-evidently doing the work of God.