This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
NOTICE: Some online security services are reporting that information for a limited number of users from this site is for sale on the "dark web." As of right now, there is no direct evidence of this, but change your password just to be safe.

Author Topic: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid  (Read 3359 times)

Thorn Drumheller

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 55
    • View Profile
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2021, 08:38:35 PM »
If they ever ship at all.  It's increasingly seeming like Leftist SJW RPG Kickstarters have a very peculiar culture: the SJW writers pretend they're going to make a book which will never arrive, and the clients pretend that they care about the game.  But the whole time the REAL transaction that is going on is a kind of Selling of Indulgences: SJW Race Grifters are offering mostly-white SJWs a fee for Racial Absolution and the right to Virtue Signal it. THAT'S what's REALLY being bought and sold.

This. I agree with this. It is what is being bought and sold.
Member in good standing of COSM.

jeff37923

  • Knight of Common Sense
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16988
    • View Profile
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2021, 09:30:33 PM »
If they ever ship at all.  It's increasingly seeming like Leftist SJW RPG Kickstarters have a very peculiar culture: the SJW writers pretend they're going to make a book which will never arrive, and the clients pretend that they care about the game.  But the whole time the REAL transaction that is going on is a kind of Selling of Indulgences: SJW Race Grifters are offering mostly-white SJWs a fee for Racial Absolution and the right to Virtue Signal it. THAT'S what's REALLY being bought and sold.

This. I agree with this. It is what is being bought and sold.

Not just Racial Absolution, but if Thirsty Sword Lesbians is any indication, then LGBT Absolution as well. Any kind of Absolution for a Leftist Ally can be baked into a game system if you try hard enough.

Omega

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • O
  • Posts: 14826
    • View Profile
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2021, 11:26:21 PM »
I will say, they funded in 45 minutes, and as of my last look, they have just over a million bucks. Even if it turns out to be a shelf-warmer, they can dry their tears with the kickstarter money.

They played the "outrage advertising" market well. Intentionally or not. And reading some of the designers comments its leaning slightly to being intentional.

Pundit and others are promoting the game for them.

Reckall

  • Junghian alchemist
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1092
    • View Profile
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2021, 07:01:07 AM »
Meanwhile Extra Credits is getting mauled for their "Evil Races are Bad Game Design" video.

Fun fact: some negative comments are from... black people!  ;D
For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

Ratman_tf

  • Alt-Reich Shitlord
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6128
    • View Profile
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2021, 07:46:16 AM »
Meanwhile Extra Credits is getting mauled for their "Evil Races are Bad Game Design" video.

Fun fact: some negative comments are from... black people!  ;D



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_asNhzXq72w

The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Reckall

  • Junghian alchemist
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1092
    • View Profile
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2021, 07:56:55 AM »
Meanwhile Extra Credits is getting mauled for their "Evil Races are Bad Game Design" video.

Fun fact: some negative comments are from... black people!  ;D



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_asNhzXq72w

When you see Newspeak like "Bioessentialism" you just know that it will not end well.
For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

BoxCrayonTales

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • B
  • Posts: 1831
    • View Profile
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2021, 09:26:14 AM »
They’re outright comparing orcs to black people. If you didn’t know any better then you’d think this was a parody.

Who the hell is promoting stereotypes that black people are “ugly, warlike, and malevolent”?

Reckall

  • Junghian alchemist
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1092
    • View Profile
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2021, 10:11:42 AM »
They’re outright comparing orcs to black people. If you didn’t know any better then you’d think this was a parody.

Who the hell is promoting stereotypes that black people are “ugly, warlike, and malevolent”?
Some stray racist does, no doubt. It is their generalisation that led to this whole new fiasco.

Actually, their "reasoning" fails on an incredible number of basic levels.

Let's consider D&D. In D&D "alignment" can be considered as "how a specific behaviour is seen from the point of view of a normal neutral human." Orcs developed they culture according to their natural characteristics: they are neither intelligent nor wise but they are very strong. Their natural desire of survival as a species depends, as with any other species, from using their strengths and avoiding their weaknesses. To our neutral-aligned human they are evil and chaotic - because "laws" require both wisdom and intelligence. In the Orc culture the strongest win, laws, respect and social order be damned.

Failing to understand this undermines a key pillar in this new EC failure: Orcs can "choose" just fine what to do! Within their cultural upbring of course, they psychophysical nature and their understanding of how the World works. Ironically, a simple check of the Monster Manual gives their alignment as "Often Chaotic Evil", not always. In the Forgotten Realms you can find pacifist Orcs, followers of Eldath.

(One could point out how there are "stupid lawful evil creatures". Look closer and you will see how often they are embedded in societies ruled by intelligent LE creatures - keeping their heads down and follow the rule is their way of surviving).

One could sum everything up by pointing out how on our reality only human beings are intelligent and advanced. A fantasy world has a lot more races and cultures. You simply can't do a 1:1 comparison.

Once you grasp this, it becomes easy to see how true "racism" can very well exist - within a race. White men can be racist towards black men. Sun elves can be racist towards Wood Elves. And "Red Hand Tribe" Orcs can be racist towards all other "inferior" tribes. Ironic, uhu?

Why something so simple was so hard to grasp is beyond me.
For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

BoxCrayonTales

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • B
  • Posts: 1831
    • View Profile
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2021, 12:22:16 PM »
My favorite portrayal of orcs has always been Warcraft 1 and 2. They were depicted as essentially conquistadors. They weren’t inherently evil, they were conquistadors. In WC2 they even convinced persecuted ethnic minorities like goblins and trolls to join them in exchange for revenge on those nasty humans, elves, and dwarves who oppressed them.

wlake.gmtn

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2021, 12:46:14 PM »
wait (cause i've never read it) so the rpg coyote and crow denigrates black people? i would've thought it was an argument for affirmative action in general. Hating charter schools and casinos seems to be on par with slavery, the question being ultimately a comparison of evils. coexist is cool, a good resolution.  america beginning with batholomew de las casas is cool, interesting that the church opposed slavery but christianity is seen as responsible for elimination of tribes with cholera and influenza and stuff. deus ex machina is uncool but speaking of norse mythology could be seen as a ragnarok instead. the question falls on whether colonialism is really real, and that's attached to things like "everything america produces is invalid from a colonialist perspective," i.e. there is no bangkok. i definitely favor racial equality and believe the land to be native land, but the palestine/israel question is a little more difficult. not sure why, they just are.

VisionStorm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1150
    • View Profile
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2021, 12:54:06 PM »
Who knew that the thing you needed for a bunch of stone age primitives in the "Americas" to become a technological superpower in just 700 years time was for a near-extinction level event to send EVERYONE back to the stone age 100 years before Columbus set sail to the "New World"? Or that the best way to represent "Native American and Indigenous populations that have been continually underrepresented or misrepresented in western media" is to build a madeup timeline that presents their culture in a super advanced, high-tech way that bears ZERO resemblance to what these cultures could've possibly ever being like?

I'm sure that this game isn't just woke nonsense, though, cuz it hasn't come out yet, and we're not allowed to judge things based on what the authors tell us is going to be there, cuz educated guesses and speculation are bad, m'kay.

TobiasP

  • Newbie
  • *
  • T
  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2021, 02:16:11 PM »
The basic strategy of the American political elite is to rule the country the same way the the British ruled India: by playing divide and conquer. They want to encourage as much racism and hatred as possible in order to get everyone fighting each other. Donald Trump and the woke are too halves of the same coin. The goal of wokeness is to divide the country and make everyone hate each other. They don't want to work together or really build anything. The basic philosophy of wokeness is that people with the wrong ideas deserved to be punished, which is Fascism 101. 

This is why the woke can't create good fiction. At  the end of the day it's a top down movement. The woke are trying to impose their values via control of Hollywood, the Academy, and other key cultural institutions. Normal people don't want this garbage because people are basically good and they aren't interested in something hateful. 

Coyote and Crow looks like basically a Black Panther knock off. Native American culture was very primitive and low tech. The culture we associate with native Americans involved furs, primitive weapons, people worshipping the great coyote spirit, et cetera. If Native Americans had developed an advanced culture then they wouldn't be doing any of  that stuff, they would be fighting with aircraft carriers like everyone else. But if you made an RPG where Native Americans wear normal military uniforms and ride around in aircraft carriers, it wouldn't like real world Native American culture. So they have to invent this kind of fantasy ultratech to explain why there's this high tech civilization that still uses tomahaks. Black Panther basically invented this style, for much the same reasons.

Black Panther wasn't actually woke though. It was a movie about two men fighting for control of the kingdom. The movie was about masculinity as much as race. At the end of the movie Wakanda decides they need to engage with the rest of the world. This is actually a really good message! Will Coyote and Crow have a good message? We'll find out. My guess is it will go like Swordfall: A lot of cool art and not much else.

BoxCrayonTales

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • B
  • Posts: 1831
    • View Profile
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2021, 02:25:47 PM »
The basic strategy of the American political elite is to rule the country the same way the the British ruled India: by playing divide and conquer. They want to encourage as much racism and hatred as possible in order to get everyone fighting each other. Donald Trump and the woke are too halves of the same coin. The goal of wokeness is to divide the country and make everyone hate each other. They don't want to work together or really build anything. The basic philosophy of wokeness is that people with the wrong ideas deserved to be punished, which is Fascism 101. 

This is why the woke can't create good fiction. At  the end of the day it's a top down movement. The woke are trying to impose their values via control of Hollywood, the Academy, and other key cultural institutions. Normal people don't want this garbage because people are basically good and they aren't interested in something hateful. 

Coyote and Crow looks like basically a Black Panther knock off. Native American culture was very primitive and low tech. The culture we associate with native Americans involved furs, primitive weapons, people worshipping the great coyote spirit, et cetera. If Native Americans had developed an advanced culture then they wouldn't be doing any of  that stuff, they would be fighting with aircraft carriers like everyone else. But if you made an RPG where Native Americans wear normal military uniforms and ride around in aircraft carriers, it wouldn't like real world Native American culture. So they have to invent this kind of fantasy ultratech to explain why there's this high tech civilization that still uses tomahaks. Black Panther basically invented this style, for much the same reasons.

Black Panther wasn't actually woke though. It was a movie about two men fighting for control of the kingdom. The movie was about masculinity as much as race. At the end of the movie Wakanda decides they need to engage with the rest of the world. This is actually a really good message! Will Coyote and Crow have a good message? We'll find out. My guess is it will go like Swordfall: A lot of cool art and not much else.

It seems really racist to assume that non-white people wouldn’t develop guns and democracy on their own.

Wakanda relying on trial by combat to determine their leader seems pretty racist. There weren’t any checks and balances to prevent an undesirable leader from assuming command and taking over the world like there are in a modern democracy.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 06:33:23 PM by BoxCrayonTales »

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8796
    • View Profile
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2021, 03:12:02 PM »
Coyote and Crow looks like basically a Black Panther knock off. Native American culture was very primitive and low tech. The culture we associate with native Americans involved furs, primitive weapons, people worshipping the great coyote spirit, et cetera. If Native Americans had developed an advanced culture then they wouldn't be doing any of  that stuff, they would be fighting with aircraft carriers like everyone else. But if you made an RPG where Native Americans wear normal military uniforms and ride around in aircraft carriers, it wouldn't like real world Native American culture. So they have to invent this kind of fantasy ultratech to explain why there's this high tech civilization that still uses tomahaks. Black Panther basically invented this style, for much the same reasons.

Black Panther wasn't actually woke though. It was a movie about two men fighting for control of the kingdom. The movie was about masculinity as much as race. At the end of the movie Wakanda decides they need to engage with the rest of the world. This is actually a really good message! Will Coyote and Crow have a good message? We'll find out. My guess is it will go like Swordfall: A lot of cool art and not much else.

Yeah, I agree that Coyote & Crow is certainly in the genre of Wakanda. As for whether it will be good - I'm not familiar with Swordfall, but it's a first-time Kickstarter and a first-time game design from the author. I think it's likely to have problems. But I think the concept as presented in the preview is cool and could be turned into a good game in the right hands. Contrary to Pundit, I don't think the concept is disgusting hideous racialism.



It's certainly possible for Afro-futurism or this Native-American futurism to portray white people as evil, but it's not necessary - and there's nothing in the C&C preview that says this. I haven't read Swordsfall's Tikor, but, for example, I don't think Stan Lee's Wakanda is racist against white people. It's not a historical projection - it's a fantastic invention like most things in superhero comics.

No, Wakanda is not racist against white people. But settings where "the white people are all dead/missing/unaccounted-for and so we created a SUPER SOCIETY" is racist against white people.

I mean, it's very simple: Imagine if someone (maybe Varg) made an alt-history game where he invented some calamity that made all the Jews die or disappear in the middle ages, and then claimed that in the 21st century Super State where the Jew-free Aryans were able to bring about a worldwide alliance now expanding out to the stars.
Would or would that not be racist?

But by your logic, Wakanda is exactly this hideous, disgusting racialism. Coyote & Crow is a direct parallel to it, as TobiasP wrote.

1) Unlike the rest of Africa, Wakanda was not invaded and conquered by white people
2) Wakanda developed its own technology and society more advanced than Europe

By your logic, this is racialist propaganda that white people are evil devils who held back Africa. Now, one could say, "it's not *because* Wakanda wasn't conquered by whites that it is advanced - it is advanced because of the fictional vibranium". But if one grants that to Wakanda, then one would have to grant the same thing to Coyote & Crow. The advances are due to the psychic powers from the Awis, not because of the lack of white people.

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8796
    • View Profile
Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2021, 03:15:34 PM »


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_asNhzXq72w

This seems like a different topic to me. I disagree with the video, but I don't see that it connects to either Myfarog or Coyote & Crow. Could we start a new thread if people want to discuss it?