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Author Topic: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid  (Read 3445 times)

Thorn Drumheller

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2021, 09:47:19 AM »
I will say, they funded in 45 minutes, and as of my last look, they have just over a million bucks. Even if it turns out to be a shelf-warmer, they can dry their tears with the kickstarter money.

Exactly. The creator's are sitting on a bunch of money. I didn't back it. I'm not offended by it. But I got a sense of anti white from the beginning. It's a dice pool system is my understanding but being in the hobby as long as a lot of us have we've seen trends. And this feels like a trend. What I'm actually astounded by is the virtual dick sucking on big purple. There's so much high fiving of each other like look how inclusive we are.

I have no evidence and I'm not a prognosticator but I hope these backers just didn't get bilked out of a lot of money.

I know I'm not the awesomest bestest game master. And I know someone will be able to run entire campaigns.....er I mean epics cause campaigns is an evil word, in coyote and crow but if all you're doing is being first nation with tech fighting monsters......how is that different than any other number of rpgs? You could do the coyote and crow setting with gurps for crying out loud.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2021, 09:53:23 AM by Thorn Drumheller »
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WillInNewHaven

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2021, 10:37:35 AM »
About Myfarog: The setting is racist and intentionally so. The system doesn't seem to have any racist elements, at least that saw and a friend used it for a campaign set in the Fertile Crescent with no echoes of the Thule setting. I don't think the system is anything special but the campaign was good. I never bought any material for the game and I wouldn't recommend the system.

jhkim

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2021, 11:00:42 AM »
About Myfarog: The setting is racist and intentionally so. The system doesn't seem to have any racist elements, at least that saw and a friend used it for a campaign set in the Fertile Crescent with no echoes of the Thule setting. I don't think the system is anything special but the campaign was good. I never bought any material for the game and I wouldn't recommend the system.

It seems to me that the race rules are fairly, well, racist. Darklings, Weaklings, and Foreigners all have across-the-board penalties compared to Native Thulean characters. Here is the racial mods table from page 8, for example:



Maybe your friend replaced the race rules in the Fertile Crescent campaign?

jhkim

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2021, 12:14:48 PM »
But neither of those are in the preview. The 2100-era cultures are explicitly *not* a utopia, and the 1400s-era cultures aren't discussed at all. And, of course, there is no meteor killing only white people. There was a meteor that had disastrous and strange effects across the world, but the only thing specified about Europe is that they didn't invade and conquer the Americas.

In the video I pointed out that to be fair, it doesn't say that explicitly, but that seems to be the implication.

You briefly mention that it isn't explicit earlier on, but your specific words from 22:02 to 22:57 are:

Quote from: RPGPundit
In terms of depth, they suck. Because the problem of propaganda as setting is that propaganda always has to be simplistic in ways way beyond anything else has to be simplistic. You don't have to be simplistic with myth. Myth can become very complex. You don't have to be simplistic with history. History is super complicated. But with... You can have lots of general trends with both of those but also lots of subtleties.

There's nothing subtle about "A meteor kills all the white people" or you know "black people and Jews are evil subhuman invaders" or something like that. Those are disgusting, hideous concepts... They have no attempt to provide any depth whatsoever.

This is bullshit comparison. In Myfarog, there's an explicit table showing how Darklings and Weaklings are lesser than Native Thuleans. But in the preview of Coyote & Crow, nothing is said about white people whatsoever except that they don't invade and conquer the Americas.

It seems to me you're trying really hard to be offended here.


If the game 7th Sea suggested that by Native Americans never existing that would somehow have made the world a better, fairer and more just/advanced place, you'd be absolutely right.
But I'm pretty sure that's not what happened there, and therefore the game is not a parallel to coyote & crow.

Again, not something said. And even though it *isn't* said, are you actually arguing that for Native Americans that their world was better because of white people arriving? Of all the places in the world, the Native Americans really haven't fared well under contact.

It's certainly possible for Afro-futurism or this Native-American futurism to portray white people as evil, but it's not necessary - and there's nothing in the C&C preview that says this. I haven't read Swordsfall's Tikor, but, for example, I don't think Stan Lee's Wakanda is racist against white people. It's not a historical projection - it's a fantastic invention like most things in superhero comics.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2021, 12:28:45 PM »
are you actually arguing that for Native Americans that their world was better because of white people arriving? Of all the places in the world, the Native Americans really haven't fared well under contact.
If we want to be pedantic, then the First Nations people probably wouldn't have died of the plagues after Columbus came if the viking colonists had stayed in the Americas and gave them domesticated animals to build up a tolerance for the plagues.

wmarshal

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2021, 01:19:20 PM »
This will probably fail to deliver. This is the lead person’s first Kickstarter, and it looks overly ambitious for being such. The team consists of over 20 members. Most of them are artists, so if some of them fail to deliver I suppose they could be replaced, but there are six who have titles of designer/writer/developer. The stretch goals promised include language development, and a software program to be developed. It’s also supposed to deliver in 8 months. If this was a Kevin Crawford project I wouldn’t worry, he has track record, but his Kickstarter also wouldn’t have added some of the bells and whistles this one has.

As to whether this project is racist or not it’s hard to be sure, but it sounds iffy. “Let’s imagine an alternate future where THOSE people aren’t around” doesn’t sound like a non-racist game. Imagine the reaction if someone created a cyberpunk game where Muhammad and Islam never came to be, and those areas Islam conquered/colonized remained dominated by Christianity? The reaction would rightfully be poor, or at least I hope it would be. Would such a game be thought as not racist if written by a Lebanese Christian?

oggsmash

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2021, 01:40:00 PM »
I will say, they funded in 45 minutes, and as of my last look, they have just over a million bucks. Even if it turns out to be a shelf-warmer, they can dry their tears with the kickstarter money.

  Timing is everything.  And when stimulus money is flying around is the best time I think.

Shasarak

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2021, 05:11:43 PM »
I can't for the life of me understand why people have can't wait for the game to be released to condemn it.

I think that if Kickstarter has taught us nothing, waiting until it may or may not be released is a fool games.

Best get your condemnation in early.
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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2021, 05:13:55 PM »
I will say, they funded in 45 minutes, and as of my last look, they have just over a million bucks. Even if it turns out to be a shelf-warmer, they can dry their tears with the kickstarter money.

If they ever ship at all.  It's increasingly seeming like Leftist SJW RPG Kickstarters have a very peculiar culture: the SJW writers pretend they're going to make a book which will never arrive, and the clients pretend that they care about the game.  But the whole time the REAL transaction that is going on is a kind of Selling of Indulgences: SJW Race Grifters are offering mostly-white SJWs a fee for Racial Absolution and the right to Virtue Signal it. THAT'S what's REALLY being bought and sold.
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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2021, 05:22:58 PM »
Here's where I apply the "good for the goose" test.  If I kickstarted a game where a weird meteor fell and gave western Europe superpowers and Albion is now full of lily-white knights who fly around with lightsabers and no other culture on the planet is ever mentioned as so much as existing, would these same people buy it, or mass-report it to try to get it tossed off the platform?

HappyDaze

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2021, 05:25:09 PM »
Here's where I apply the "good for the goose" test.  If I kickstarted a game where a weird meteor fell and gave western Europe superpowers and Albion is now full of lily-white knights who fly around with lightsabers and no other culture on the planet is ever mentioned as so much as existing, would these same people buy it, or mass-report it to try to get it tossed off the platform?
Give it your best shot and let's see how it goes.

RPGPundit

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2021, 05:27:02 PM »
But neither of those are in the preview. The 2100-era cultures are explicitly *not* a utopia, and the 1400s-era cultures aren't discussed at all. And, of course, there is no meteor killing only white people. There was a meteor that had disastrous and strange effects across the world, but the only thing specified about Europe is that they didn't invade and conquer the Americas.

In the video I pointed out that to be fair, it doesn't say that explicitly, but that seems to be the implication.

You briefly mention that it isn't explicit earlier on, but your specific words from 22:02 to 22:57 are:

Quote from: RPGPundit
In terms of depth, they suck. Because the problem of propaganda as setting is that propaganda always has to be simplistic in ways way beyond anything else has to be simplistic. You don't have to be simplistic with myth. Myth can become very complex. You don't have to be simplistic with history. History is super complicated. But with... You can have lots of general trends with both of those but also lots of subtleties.

There's nothing subtle about "A meteor kills all the white people" or you know "black people and Jews are evil subhuman invaders" or something like that. Those are disgusting, hideous concepts... They have no attempt to provide any depth whatsoever.

This is bullshit comparison. In Myfarog, there's an explicit table showing how Darklings and Weaklings are lesser than Native Thuleans. But in the preview of Coyote & Crow, nothing is said about white people whatsoever except that they don't invade and conquer the Americas.

Right. So you're arguing that "the world is a VASTLY BETTER PLACE because white people were unable to interact with anyone else and may be extinct now" is not a ridiculously simplistic and hideous concept with no depth?

Quote
If the game 7th Sea suggested that by Native Americans never existing that would somehow have made the world a better, fairer and more just/advanced place, you'd be absolutely right.
But I'm pretty sure that's not what happened there, and therefore the game is not a parallel to coyote & crow.

Again, not something said. And even though it *isn't* said, are you actually arguing that for Native Americans that their world was better because of white people arriving? Of all the places in the world, the Native Americans really haven't fared well under contact.

In the long run, it absolutely was. Which doesn't discount a whole lot of cruelty and injustices committed against them; but you see in all of history cruelty and injustices were normal. Their lives were FILLED with cruelties and injustices before the white people showed up. In fact, they had an Evil Imperialist State (the Aztecs) who were INFINITE TIMES WORSE to everyone who wasn't Aztec (and to most Aztecs) than even the shitty Spanish were. As I point out in the video, that's why entire armies of non-Aztec rebels CHEERFULLY joined Cortez in giving the Aztecs what they fucking deserved.

Quote
It's certainly possible for Afro-futurism or this Native-American futurism to portray white people as evil, but it's not necessary - and there's nothing in the C&C preview that says this. I haven't read Swordsfall's Tikor, but, for example, I don't think Stan Lee's Wakanda is racist against white people. It's not a historical projection - it's a fantastic invention like most things in superhero comics.

No, Wakanda is not racist against white people. But settings where "the white people are all dead/missing/unaccounted-for and so we created a SUPER SOCIETY" is racist against white people.

I mean, it's very simple: Imagine if someone (maybe Varg) made an alt-history game where he invented some calamity that made all the Jews die or disappear in the middle ages, and then claimed that in the 21st century Super State where the Jew-free Aryans were able to bring about a worldwide alliance now expanding out to the stars.
Would or would that not be racist?
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TJS

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2021, 05:56:01 PM »
I can't for the life of me understand why people have can't wait for the game to be released to condemn it.

I think that if Kickstarter has taught us nothing, waiting until it may or may not be released is a fool games.

Best get your condemnation in early.
If it never ships than who cares?  It seems pointless to condemn content if it never arrives.

In that case the story would not be about the continent about the failure to be any.


Ratman_tf

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2021, 06:07:40 PM »
I can't for the life of me understand why people have can't wait for the game to be released to condemn it.

I think that if Kickstarter has taught us nothing, waiting until it may or may not be released is a fool games.

Best get your condemnation in early.

Never kickstart, crowdfund or early access. Buy released products, if at all.*

*I have kickstarted once, and considered it a donation. I did not expect anything in return.
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BronzeDragon

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2021, 06:32:20 PM »
Never kickstart, crowdfund or early access. Buy released products, if at all.*

*I have kickstarted once, and considered it a donation. I did not expect anything in return.

This is the only rational way to deal with KS.

Same with Early Access and Pre-orders for vidya.
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