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Author Topic: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid  (Read 3126 times)

RPGPundit

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Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« on: April 01, 2021, 08:33:33 PM »
I'm sure I'll be pissing off a lot of people with this one. But racial power-fantasies always make stupid ttrpg settings.


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jhkim

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2021, 10:36:45 PM »
So, regarding Coyote & Crow,

https://coyoteandcrow.net/

So, your two points for claiming that it is "racialist" are:

1) It's simplistic propaganda because it says "a meteor kills all the white people" (repeated at 22:30)

2) It presents the 1400s-era Native American cultures as a utopia

But neither of those are in the preview. The 2100-era cultures are explicitly *not* a utopia, and the 1400s-era cultures aren't discussed at all. And, of course, there is no meteor killing only white people. There was a meteor that had disastrous and strange effects across the world, but the only thing specified about Europe is that they didn't invade and conquer the Americas.


As a parallel, I'd bring up the RPG 7th Sea. In the world of 7th Sea, there are no American continents - they simply don't exist. So, my question is - is this racialist against Native Americans, wiping them out just to have a world that never actually existed? Or is it just that the premise of the game doesn't include them?

GeekyBugle

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2021, 12:15:56 AM »
So, regarding Coyote & Crow,

https://coyoteandcrow.net/

So, your two points for claiming that it is "racialist" are:

1) It's simplistic propaganda because it says "a meteor kills all the white people" (repeated at 22:30)

2) It presents the 1400s-era Native American cultures as a utopia

But neither of those are in the preview. The 2100-era cultures are explicitly *not* a utopia, and the 1400s-era cultures aren't discussed at all. And, of course, there is no meteor killing only white people. There was a meteor that had disastrous and strange effects across the world, but the only thing specified about Europe is that they didn't invade and conquer the Americas.


As a parallel, I'd bring up the RPG 7th Sea. In the world of 7th Sea, there are no American continents - they simply don't exist. So, my question is - is this racialist against Native Americans, wiping them out just to have a world that never actually existed? Or is it just that the premise of the game doesn't include them?

A much better comparison would be to myfarog and you know it.

Lets see, a meteor strikes and doesn't wipe out white people, it just makes things harder for everyone... But at that time Europe, China and the Califate were much more advanced technologically speaking than anyone in the Americas. With the African slave trade by the califate already centuries old.

How then do you explain the Europeans never discovered the Americas? Or China, or the Califate?

How come with their newfound magic wakandan powers the "natives" didn't engage in their usual shenanigans of killing each other and commiting genocide?

If, as you claimed, the "natives" aren't the "choosen ppl", how come there's not an European superpower with better tech AND magic powers?
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Chris24601

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2021, 01:00:52 AM »
So, regarding Coyote & Crow,

https://coyoteandcrow.net/

*blah blah blah*
We get it. You NEED to bite down on the shit sandwich before you'll admit its a shit sandwich.

Those of us with common sense can determine it from the smell from a fair distance.

When the creators tell you they hate you; BELIEVE THEM. Lukewarm "can't we all just get along" types are just used as cover by the raging Leftist assholes. Stop being their cover in the vain hope they'll actually let you into their club. They won't. You post here.

Kanyenya

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2021, 01:40:09 AM »
As a parallel, I'd bring up the RPG 7th Sea. In the world of 7th Sea, there are no American continents - they simply don't exist. So, my question is - is this racialist against Native Americans, wiping them out just to have a world that never actually existed? Or is it just that the premise of the game doesn't include them?

7th Sea includes the "Americas":


https://www.chaosium.com/7th-sea-the-new-world-hardcover/

jhkim

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2021, 01:51:38 AM »
As a parallel, I'd bring up the RPG 7th Sea. In the world of 7th Sea, there are no American continents - they simply don't exist. So, my question is - is this racialist against Native Americans, wiping them out just to have a world that never actually existed? Or is it just that the premise of the game doesn't include them?

7th Sea includes the "Americas":


https://www.chaosium.com/7th-sea-the-new-world-hardcover/

Whoops! Sorry about that. I've only played 7th Sea first edition, which didn't have any New World despite being based on the Age of Sail.

To be fair, 7th Sea came out in 1999, and it looks like the New World expansion didn't come out until 2018 as part of the second edition.

The point can still apply to the first edition. i.e. Was the first edition racialist for not having any Native Americans?

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2021, 02:02:00 AM »
So, regarding Coyote & Crow,

https://coyoteandcrow.net/

*blah blah blah*
We get it. You NEED to bite down on the shit sandwich before you'll admit its a shit sandwich.

Those of us with common sense can determine it from the smell from a fair distance.

When the creators tell you they hate you; BELIEVE THEM. Lukewarm "can't we all just get along" types are just used as cover by the raging Leftist assholes. Stop being their cover in the vain hope they'll actually let you into their club. They won't. You post here.

Greetings!

Right on, Chris. Like the details of the game that *have* been mentioned, along with quotes from the producer of the game--it just drips with Leftist propaganda and woke bullshit.

But no, no. Don't be too hasty now in judging the game! ;D

The obscurantic density and grasping at the flimsiest straws in an effort to defend the game is mind-boggling.

The game is woke, Leftist bullshit. Like you have said, the stench is real, and you can tell it from a mile away! I don't need to get the book; I don't need to read more.

I've seen--and smelled--plenty enough already.

The game can die in a fucking fire.

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jhkim

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2021, 02:17:41 AM »
The 2100-era cultures are explicitly *not* a utopia, and the 1400s-era cultures aren't discussed at all. And, of course, there is no meteor killing only white people. There was a meteor that had disastrous and strange effects across the world, but the only thing specified about Europe is that they didn't invade and conquer the Americas.

Lets see, a meteor strikes and doesn't wipe out white people, it just makes things harder for everyone... But at that time Europe, China and the Califate were much more advanced technologically speaking than anyone in the Americas. With the African slave trade by the califate already centuries old.

How then do you explain the Europeans never discovered the Americas? Or China, or the Califate?

How come with their newfound magic wakandan powers the "natives" didn't engage in their usual shenanigans of killing each other and commiting genocide?

If, as you claimed, the "natives" aren't the "choosen ppl", how come there's not an European superpower with better tech AND magic powers?

Given weird science and superhuman powers, there are all sorts of explanations possible. The game has made it explicit that it's up to individual GMs to decide what the rest of the world (including Europe, Africa, and Asia) are like, if they want to include them. If I were running it, many possibilities come to mind:

1) The Europeans were closer to the crash which was by the North Sea, and the survivors developed stronger psychic powers. With these, they advanced past needing colonies for raw materials during the climate crisis, becoming a psychically-superpowered people like the Organians from Star Trek.

2) The crash happened in Africa, and surviving Africans became an Organian-like psychic superpower. They have kept the different continents separate using their advanced psychic abilities. The Europeans have a highly advanced civilization, but they are kept in by psychic barriers.

3) The crash happened in Central Asia, and all of Asia, Africa, and Europe have been busy fighting with the beings that came out of the asteroid crash. However, the creatures hate water, which is what has kept the Americas safe.

But none of these explanations are necessary for the game. The game could simply stay focused in the Americas.


I discussed about American civilization in the other thread. In an alternate history that was restricted to only real-world science, I don't think Native American civilizations would advance to high technology in seven hundred years even with isolation. However, this is science fantasy - not hard sci-fi. With psychic powers, there are lots of ways for culture and technology to develop. Having telepaths could promote egalitarianism and cooperation, and telekinetics could have intuitive knowledge of some physical principles like gravity, force, chemistry, and electricity. It depends how the powers manifest and what effects they have.

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2021, 02:41:50 AM »
The game is woke, Leftist bullshit. Like you have said, the stench is real, and you can tell it from a mile away! I don't need to get the book; I don't need to read more.

If you don't care about it and don't want to read about it -- then why are you on the thread ... reading about it?

Personally, I thought the concept was cool. I'm not sold that the execution is going to be a good design - but I just talked to my son and he backed it, so I'll probably see his copy when it comes out.

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2021, 03:41:48 AM »
The game is woke, Leftist bullshit. Like you have said, the stench is real, and you can tell it from a mile away! I don't need to get the book; I don't need to read more.

If you don't care about it and don't want to read about it -- then why are you on the thread ... reading about it?

Hi jhkim! You must be new to the site. Since you haven't read any other threads on the site yet, let me catch you up.

There is this little thing going on we call the 'culture war'. Aspects of this culture war have been seeping into RPGs for some time now. Some of us like to observe and comment on such issues, since it affects the products available.
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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2021, 04:25:09 AM »
So, regarding Coyote & Crow,

https://coyoteandcrow.net/

So, your two points for claiming that it is "racialist" are:

1) It's simplistic propaganda because it says "a meteor kills all the white people" (repeated at 22:30)

2) It presents the 1400s-era Native American cultures as a utopia

But neither of those are in the preview. The 2100-era cultures are explicitly *not* a utopia, and the 1400s-era cultures aren't discussed at all. And, of course, there is no meteor killing only white people. There was a meteor that had disastrous and strange effects across the world, but the only thing specified about Europe is that they didn't invade and conquer the Americas.

In the video I pointed out that to be fair, it doesn't say that explicitly, but that seems to be the implication.

Quote
As a parallel, I'd bring up the RPG 7th Sea. In the world of 7th Sea, there are no American continents - they simply don't exist. So, my question is - is this racialist against Native Americans, wiping them out just to have a world that never actually existed? Or is it just that the premise of the game doesn't include them?

If the game 7th Sea suggested that by Native Americans never existing that would somehow have made the world a better, fairer and more just/advanced place, you'd be absolutely right.
But I'm pretty sure that's not what happened there, and therefore the game is not a parallel to coyote & crow.
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Tantavalist

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2021, 05:14:25 AM »
7th Sea in first edition seemed to want to have Age of Sail high seas adventure without having the questionable issues of colonialism. So it just had their version of Europe sealed off from the rest of the world and somehow an Age of Sail with pirates and everything happened anyway, just clinging to the coasts and inside the Mediterrenean.

Frankly, I find that on a logical world-building level Coyote & Crow offends my suspension of disbelief less than 7th Sea 1e. It at least admits what it's trying to do up front and accepts that a magic meteor Deus ex Machina is what it would take for that to happen.

Beyond that? Screaming that it's a sign of the End Times isn't much better than embracing it as evidence that RPGs are no longer played by KKK members. It's a game that's not even out yet. Every single thing we know about it comes from developer posts and the hype these have generated. Is anyone actually going to claim that this is an accurate way to judge a game?

Don't get me wrong, I won't be buying this game. But I'll likely hoist the Black Flag when it does come out because, I happen to believe that you shouldn't be too critical of something you've only heard about second hand. I don't anticipate having a positive opinion of the game but I'm willing to give it one chance to convince me as long as it doesn't cost me money.

Realistically, given my own experience of getting excited about games based on pre-release hype then being disappointed with both the game and the setting that I finally got... Even devoid of Culture Wars stuff I see a real possibility that the setting or the system won't be very good when it comes out and that all the people who decided they were fans ahead of time will stubbornly refuse to admit this and blank out any criticism of either.


Oh- as one example of these disappointments? I backed the "Abney Park's Airship Pirates" RPG on the strength of... Well, Steampunk Airship Pirates. Who can't see why that would be fun? Abney Park apparently. Their Steampunk future is an illogical mess created by people with trendy anti-colonial sentiments and no idea of sociological cause and effect.

Despite the British Empire never happening the 1800s are called the Victorian Age and the styles and fashion Steampunks love still came about. The trans-atlantic slave trade never happened but there's still people of African descent in the Americas, in large numbers. The nations of West Africa became more advanced than Europe in the space of a few decades due to an infodump by a time traveller, but then never exploit this by expanding beyond Africa to become world powers. (Also- "West Africa". Not Ghana, not Mali, not Songhai- the writers who came up with this couldn't even be bothered to look up the names of the major nations of the region prior to to colonial era.)

The world is technologically stagnant and becoming a human-free wilderness because a single tyrant took over the world and decided both technology and humans are bad for the planet. He was able to take over the world and enact this agenda because... Look, he just was OK? Stop being difficult!


A better title for this thread would be- Ideological Propaganda RPGs are Always Bad. Because an ideology doesn't have to be based on race to screw things up in exactly the same way.

TJS

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2021, 05:56:24 AM »
I can't for the life of me understand why people have can't wait for the game to be released to condemn it.

I mean, even if you're pretty sure you know what it will be like, it's always possible you could be wrong.

And it's not as if you anyone's mind is going to be changed by obviously leaping to conclusions.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2021, 06:30:24 AM »
I will say, they funded in 45 minutes, and as of my last look, they have just over a million bucks. Even if it turns out to be a shelf-warmer, they can dry their tears with the kickstarter money.
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Reckall

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Re: Racialist Propaganda RPGs are Always Stupid
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2021, 08:49:32 AM »
So, regarding Coyote & Crow,

https://coyoteandcrow.net/

*blah blah blah*
We get it. You NEED to bite down on the shit sandwich before you'll admit its a shit sandwich.

Those of us with common sense can determine it from the smell from a fair distance.

It is like what happened with "Fate of Cthulhu". The authors felt the need to point out in  the intro that the game needed "Content and Consent" (OK...?) and then that "Lovecraft was a racist and and an anti-Semite. There we said it." (they then ranted a bit about his racism and the current wokeism surrounding his work).

Well, welcome to the rest of the World. We hope that you will have a good journey.  :)

Note how these two quotes (and the short rant) do not automatically imply that the game will be shitty. To me they are both ridiculous and something from Mr. Obvious, but if the authors felt the need to include them, good for them. There is no reason for the following ruleset not to be as good as CoC.

It turns out that the game is totally shitty.

Also, scratch what I said: from the very moment you see these quotes you just know that the game will be shitty. And there is no reason why.

Mussolini was a great writer. He is mostly remembered for his bombastic speeches, but in normal life he had an unusual mastery of the Italian language. Historians are attributing to him many "anonymous" articles that appeared on the newspapers of the era due to the quality of writing alone.

Mussolini was still the initiator of an aberrant ideology. The two things should not be connected.

And yet, I bought "Fate of Cthulhu" out of curiosity (my bad) and it is dire. I bought "Winter Tide" to give a chance to the writer before sinking her and it was trashy fan-fiction (she is currently sunk).

"Get woke - go broke" is one of the wisest suggestions to anyone who wants to engage in the creative arts in the current climate. The number of flops suffered by historic franchises from the whole spectrum of the arts when they went woke is too much to name. We can only conclude that wokeism thinks that the ideology alone is enough to succeed. No hard work and bloody sweat needed to master your craft and convey your ideas in the best possible way.

I remain of my opinion: a lot of screaming and smoke, but little success or substance. IMHO, the real strength of wokeism is that people are overestimating the whole brouhaha.
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