Quote from: everloss;933460Orcs are sort of the same, being seen as stupid and lazy by the other races. Even though Orcs can be somewhat smart, they can use that racial bias to their advantage as spies; other people will talk openly around an orc because they don't think the orc is smart enough to remember or use it against them.

Brilliant way to handle it!

Quote from: everloss;933460Nowadays I play other games, but I still generally place communities as more or less a single species, with maybe some traders or mercenaries from other species hangin' out before they return to their own communities. I think it keeps things exotic, while still showing that other stuff exists and providing options for the players.

It works, doesn't it? People have suggested a version of this on this thread, and it lets you roll up a town in a hurry - just need to conceptualize how each race could serve as a minority niche inside another race's territory. And if I was more generous to D&D lore, this is closer to how they present races in the material I've seen.

Quote from: Ashakyre;933499Religion seems to be the best substitute for race for the formation of group identity. I don't have a teleological view of history. Mine is circular, and we are still subject to the same forces the ancients were. We just want to believe the particular phase we're at will last forever. I believe each phase prepares the next.

When it comes to our history, I read that point of view, all I will say is that I disagree with the idea. Which is a topic for a different thread. However when it comes to fictional setting by all means make that a feature. Part of doing this stuff is to explore what ifs. You will be in good company as one of the most well known settings, Middle Earth, has a particular take on history due to the author's views.

Quote from: Ashakyre;933499The Romans became dependent on barbarians and collapsed. Sure, you can point to a phase in their history where Roman citizenship - on paper - was more important than tribe, but in the next phase barbarian refugees stopped assimilating and eventually sacked Rome, and set up de facto kingdoms within the Empire, leading to its dissolution. Meanwhile the Jewish tribes kept their identity and are still going strong today.

My view is that the Roman ideal solidified during the 1st and 2nd century, especially during the time of the Five Good Emperors. It rose because of the necessity of holding their empire together. And for many the Roman way brought considerable material improvements both high and low. And yes there were some, like the Jews, that were the exception.

Note however, the situation with the barbarians is more complex than they didn't assimilate. They wanted the idea of Rome but did not want to submit to Rome. The ideals of Rome shown a powerful light down through the centuries for Western and Southern Europe. Even reached to places like Russia through the Byzantines.

The takeaway for fantasy campaigns, is that more interesting situations are those where there are multiple reason behind what drives individuals and cultures. For example in a 5th century campaign, it is an interesting conflict to have to try to juggle the desire to live of the ideals of your germanic tribe versus the benefits of doing things the Roman way versus exploiting the specific circumstances your find yourself in.

Quote from: Ashakyre;933499EDIT: I'm not sure what caused the end of classical Greece or Persia, other than they were subsumed by other empires. But they had to become internally weak first, I suppose - I just don't know the history.

Persia was taken out by Alexander and Hellenism. What characterized Persia was their willingness to accommodate local customs and laws to a point. However there was no master idea or philosophy united the empire. It still amounted to the threat that the Persians will kick your culture ass if you don't pay the proper respect and tribute to the King of Kings.

The spread of Hellenism was more of an idea than threat of force. Alexander empire fragmented after his death, however the sheer craziness of 5th Century BC Greek thought was so compelling that it became a major force. Ultimately it was done in by Rome in the West and a renewed Persia in the East. However both Rome and Persia assimilated much of Greek thought into their respective. Rome especially.

Adapting Hellenism can provide a interesting context to why the good aligned races are what they are. I wrote a mini setting for a LARP where the epic was an elf named Greyhorn. The various races (dwarves, humans, elves, etc) were under a common threat and he united them. A common civilization developed and then he died unexpectedly. The wars for his successors tore the land apart. But his ideals lived on and while the region was never united politically again, there was enough of the spirit of what he accomplished that the various inhabitants of the region still had a natural affinity for each other compared to cultures outside of the region.

Quote from: Ashakyre;933499This is very true. Personally I'd like to make a game that somehow represents a sped-up version of cultural time and allows the formation and breakup of empires throughout the course of a campaign. I find the very idea of cultural cycles utterly fascinating and maybe a simple model could be that context which makes these stereotypes more interesting and effective.

That would a interesting game, however when it comes an RPG campaign it only matters as much as it effect the behavior of a NPC or PC. Where history, culture, religion, meet the metal in the personalities and motivations of the characters both players and non-player. One of the things I tried to do in my campaign and writing is only present things that are important to how character act. In my books and handouts I try to draw a clear connection between the history or ideal to how you would see it manifest in the campaign.

Quote from: Ashakyre;933499In this case, the broad cycle would feature times when tribes bonded together through empire/migration, homogenized and separated through ethnic cleansing, and bonded together through empire.

What I do is start with an initial situation and extrapolate form there. There are constants in that human, elves, dwarves, etc have a norm for their race or culture. However it combines with the specific circumstance to produces what happens. And at the end is yet another set of specific circumstances. The circumstances rarely repeat, but because of what makes an elf an elf, a human a human, there are patterns that occur over and over again in different variations.

Quote from: Ashakyre;933499This seems like a solid, manageable approach. Earlier in the thread folks have suggested I make it all humans but with diverging cultures. That would be fun.

When it comes to fictional setting people at time develop a myopia that I like to call the Star Wars planet. A Star Wars planet is defined by one thing, it a desert world, a jungle world, a storm world, etc. In reality life bearing worlds would have diverse environments even if a single climate dominate the planet. The same for race and culture.

However if you going to run a Star War campaigns, then it makes sense to have Star Wars style planets. It an option only bad if that the only one the referee ever thinks of using.

Quote from: estar;933512That would a interesting game, however when it comes an RPG campaign it only matters as much as it effect the behavior of a NPC or PC. Where history, culture, religion, meet the metal in the personalities and motivations of the characters both players and non-player. One of the things I tried to do in my campaign and writing is only present things that are important to how character act. In my books and handouts I try to draw a clear connection between the history or ideal to how you would see it manifest in the campaign.

If I could achieve it at all, I could achieve it to my satisfaction with minimal effort. I just want to make it so that the richer and safer a city is the less able it is to produce people who can defend it.

Quote from: estar;933512When it comes to fictional setting people at time develop a myopia that I like to call the Star Wars planet. A Star Wars planet is defined by one thing, it a desert world, a jungle world, a storm world, etc. In reality life bearing worlds would have diverse environments even if a single climate dominate the planet. The same for race and culture.

However if you going to run a Star War campaigns, then it makes sense to have Star Wars style planets. It an option only bad if that the only one the referee ever thinks of using.

For quick and dirty instant cultures, it works. I'd like to have a classification system determined by where a city / polity is on its civilizational cycle. I think that would be fun, even if people disagreed with the details.

Quote from: everloss;933460Say what you will, but I grew up playing various Palladium games and those still influence my game today.

Palladium Fantasy 1e rocks.

I'd jump to play in a PF1e campaign in a hot second. That game is great fun.

This latest campaign is the first one where I made a conscious decision to have a major NPC lord come off as a bigot. It incensed the group, and has consumed the Elf warriors entire character arc. He's fomenting an overthrow. The interesting thing is, the bigot NPC isn't so much a hater as he is conpletely ignorant of anything not human. He spent a great deal of time ignoring the non-humans in audience, except when he spoke really....slow....to the halfling character. They hate the guy. Which is fun for me, because lord dumbass isn't the brains behind the outfit. He's just the front.

Quote from: cranebump;933538This latest campaign is the first one where I made a conscious decision to have a major NPC lord come off as a bigot. It incensed the group, and has consumed the Elf warriors entire character arc. He's fomenting an overthrow. The interesting thing is, the bigot NPC isn't so much a hater as he is conpletely ignorant of anything not human. He spent a great deal of time ignoring the non-humans in audience, except when he spoke really....slow....to the halfling character. They hate the guy. Which is fun for me, because lord dumbass isn't the brains behind the outfit. He's just the front.

That's a fantastic and effective characterization.

Humans have always had animosity toward our neighbors because we all occupy the same ecological niche and must compete against each other.

Races in D&D seem to have natural affinity for a particular geography where they outperform other races.  Elves in forests, dwarves in mountains, etc.  Thusly, the D&D races generally occupy different ecological niches with limited need to compete.  Since each is relatively isolated within their respective geographical types, trade becomes very important to acquire resources.  However, open warfare is relatively rare since races have no desire to live in the geography of their bordering neighbors.  Warfare is generally between competing tribes within a race.

This is also why humanoids are so dangerous.  They threaten the natural order of the races by attacking across geographical types.

Quote from: Ashakyre;933409Wish I could upvote this, lol.

If I made a game of all human PC's I'd have to have various kinds of humans that had their own little abilities, and slight appearance differences - and then I could do some of this stuff.
Religious conflict fascinates me.

Please don't upvote a post containing words like "classism, arristocratism, religious oppression, caste oppression, ethnic hate", it might trigger someone:p!
And then the whole RPGSite will need new keyboards;).

Quote from: estar;933475In my Majestic Wilderlands, the default is the same as it ever was throughout our history. Not only race caused animosity but culture as well. However there are two major factors present in the Wilderlands that are not in our world as result of using D&D fantasy as the foundation.

And that is, IMO, how it should be:).

The only problem I have with the MW is that I don't have enough info about the City-State. But I guess most people who buy OSR titles know more about the CSotIOL than I do;). But other than that, it strikes me as a rather good, usable setting without a host of things the designer didn't bother to think about, so kudos for writing MW!

Quote from: Old One Eye;933598Humans have always had animosity toward our neighbors because we all occupy the same ecological niche and must compete against each other.

Races in D&D seem to have natural affinity for a particular geography where they outperform other races.  Elves in forests, dwarves in mountains, etc.  Thusly, the D&D races generally occupy different ecological niches with limited need to compete.  Since each is relatively isolated within their respective geographical types, trade becomes very important to acquire resources.  However, open warfare is relatively rare since races have no desire to live in the geography of their bordering neighbors.  Warfare is generally between competing tribes within a race.

This is also why humanoids are so dangerous.  They threaten the natural order of the races by attacking across geographical types.

OK, now I want to write a setting where the invasion of goblin tribes has made the elves emigrate towards human and dwarven cities, and have a hard time finding acceptance there:D!

Quote from: AsenRG;933603OK, now I want to write a setting where the invasion of goblin tribes has made the elves emigrate towards human and dwarven cities, and have a hard time finding acceptance there:D!

Sounds delicious. Model them on the Jews! Highly talented, homeless, and resented.

Quote from: AsenRG;933603The only problem I have with the MW is that I don't have enough info about the City-State. But I guess most people who buy OSR titles know more about the CSotIOL than I do;). But other than that, it strikes me as a rather good, usable setting without a host of things the designer didn't bother to think about, so kudos for writing MW!

Thanks. The point of the book is to be a setting overview hence the lack of local level details. However I did post my raw notes a long time ago which you can look at here. Note they are very raw notes.

Land of the City State

As well as a map of what my version of City-State is like.

And the rest of the site http://www.batintheattic.com/wilderlands/

I am working on a follow up. The first one will be focusing on magic and is called The Lost Grimoire of Magic.

Quote from: Old One Eye;933598Humans have always had animosity toward our neighbors because we all occupy the same ecological niche and must compete against each other.

Bingo!  The bedouins get credit for their "Me against my brother, me and my brother against my cousin, me and my cousin against the stranger", but ALL humanity is like that when there is competition for base survival.

Elves and Dwarves really don't compete against each other or humans for land or resources, and they all compete against the humanoids, who are spread out and can really infect any habitat you can think of.  Of course Empires are going to conflict as they begin expansion into other areas, but then you're into political/economic influence more than competition for survival.  

The ones who are going to have problems with humans are the halflings.  Without a civilized diplomacy that will allow halflings to co-exist under the control of humans, they are going to be roflstomped in battle and have to undertake a murderous insurgency or be enslaved.

Take Warhammer.  Reiklanders, Talabeclanders and Middenlanders would rather cut each other's heads off most of the time than share bread.  Not only are they in competition politically, their enmity descends from when they were all barbaric tribes, and to top it off, they have different main deities.  Western Reiklanders might have hostility towards their semi-close foreign neighbors the Bretonnians, while treating visitors from far Kislev as exotic travelers, while Eastern Sudenlanders would be the exact opposite.  All humans however can agree to fight against the Orcs and Beastmen.  Elves and Dwarves are generally treated as "exotic" not "foreign" except in the largest cities where they may have enclaves and compete against the local tradesmen.

In a coastal land where Elven Ships dominate the seas, Elves might be hated by humans.  In mountainous valleys, humans might loathe Dwarves who make them trade food and goods for metals at obscene rates, and hate the Elves who kill humans who stray too far into their forests for wood and hunting, leaving the humans and halflings having to band together against the humanoids.  

Elves and Dwarves might hate each other for sins committed before the time of man, but it might be more fun if the Gnomes just need vast amounts of wood for their war machines, so the last remnants of the Elves and the Halfling refugees they took in are waging guerilla war against the lumber camps while the human Empire leads its Orcish mercenary armies against the Dwarven Strongholds.

Think of Resources, Geography and Gods and you'll have enough warfare and conflict for a thousand years of history and a setting that isn't bog-standard fantasy.

Quote from: HappyDaze;933436Does anybody have the old AD&D UA chart that showed how the races were supposed to get along? I seem to recall that many of them couldn't stand one another.

Oh, and if you have a version of that chart you can post here, I'd love to see it.

Heres a basic summary.

Dwarves didnt like Elves and hate Half orcs. They like Gnomes and Halflings (of the Tallfellow and Stout type.)
Elves dont like Dwarves or Half orcs. They like Half elves and are ok with Halflings.
Gnomes hate Half orcs. They like Dwarves and Halflings and are ok with Elves and Half elves.
Halflings are ok with Dwarves, Elves and Gnomes, and neutral to everyone else.
Half Orcs hate dwarves and Gnomes and dont like Elves or Half elves. They are ok with Humans.
Half elfs dont like Half orcs. They love elves and are ok with Humans and Gnomes.
Humans are ok with Half-elves and neutral to everyone else.

Quote from: Ashakyre;933407. . . PC infighting gets pretty old.

Or it drives a really fun campaign.

Quote from: CRKrueger;933683Elves and Dwarves really don't compete against each other or humans for land or resources . . .

The fuck they don't.

Dwarven forges need charcoal, dwarven mines need timbers, dwarven mills need running water.

Mines will absolutely fuck over a forest, consuming it and leaving behind acres of spoils, stumps, and sediment-choked streams.

Thanks, Estar:)!

Quote from: Ashakyre;933611Sounds delicious. Model them on the Jews! Highly talented, homeless, and resented.

I think that calling Jews "elves" should count as antisemitism, so no, thank you:D!

Unless I'm running Dragon Age, where their two culture as described in the book did strike me as Medieval Jew and Medieval Gypsy, but that's on the designer's conscience, not mine;).