So, we've covered non-humans in Sword & Sorcery, what races; other than the classic "D&D" ones would you want, or even demand, in a High Fantasy setting?

As I've learned, the bastards want their elves and dwarves.

But WTF is high fantasy? It's almost worse to describe than S&S. Is Elric high fantasy? Is Sword of Shannara? Is Game of Thrones? Is Lord of the Rings?

Warhammer is billed out as Low Fantasy which only works for certain interpretations of the RPG. The wargame is most certainly not Low Fantasy, but its semi-more grounded than Warmachine.

Are all D&D settings high fantasy? I can see Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance, but what about Dark Sun and Ravenloft?

Quote from: Spinachcat;725231As I've learned, the bastards want their elves and dwarves.

But WTF is high fantasy? It's almost worse to describe than S&S. Is Elric high fantasy? Is Sword of Shannara? Is Game of Thrones? Is Lord of the Rings?

Warhammer is billed out as Low Fantasy which only works for certain interpretations of the RPG. The wargame is most certainly not Low Fantasy, but its semi-more grounded than Warmachine.

Are all D&D settings high fantasy? I can see Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance, but what about Dark Sun and Ravenloft?

My understanding is that "high fantasy" features protagonists who concern themselves with grandiose moral or metaphysical conflicts, e.g. Good v. Evil or Law v. Chaos. "Low fantasy" characters act out of more self-interested or at least personal motives, e.g. making money or protecting one's family.

Of course I don't read much fantasy, so what do I know?

Not necessarily requirements, but stuff that I like in general:

-The Classics. Elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings. But I like variants of these as well; as in the old 'sub-race' idea.

-The Nature Types. If given a choice, I enjoy stuff like centaurs, dryads(D&D 2e like dryads, though, not fond of 4e's at all), satyrs. Also, I'd include 'beast dudes' in this(think Shifter types, though I prefer them more human than beast, more like human with bits of beasty aspects.)

-Other sorts of 'humanoid' hybrids of more common fantasy races. Giant-Elf hybrids? Sure, why not. When it comes to these, though, if speaking from a mechanical sense, I'd prefer a set of rules where you can 'build your own' to fit your world. Maybe half-ogres don't exist in your world, but half-orcs do, or maybe instead of humans, elves are the only race able to cross-breed with other races, or something. Hence more of a 'build your own'.

-Elemental-blooded races I tend to enjoy as well. (3x's Genasi I like a lot.)

-Angel/demon type races(Aasimar, Tieflings, etc. I've created an Abyssal Tiefling variant for my games, for example.)

      Something magic, something small,
something stout and something tall.
Something tinker, something blue,
something killer without shoe.

Quote from: 1of3;725244Something tinker, something blue,

You lot can stay, but the Gnome and the Kender have got to go.

Dwarves, elves, halflings & gnomes. Also half-elves and if done the right way*, half-orcs.

For PCs.

For NPCs, I basically love D&D's bunch - orcs & goblinoids**, giants, faerie things, etc etc.

*=the 1e way
**=allthough it's sometimes a bit of a drag to think up the difference between those and orcs...

I don't mind there being stuff like tieflings (2e version) and so on either really, I like both these and eladrin a lot.

Any whoever makes the setting desires. Also expecting/accepting that the races will often be a metaphor/allegory/personification of certain qualities/philosophical concepts.

The elves, dwarves and hobbits are to me more of a cliche than an important accept of high fantasy.

the core: elves, dwarves, and halflings

no half races like half elf or half orc, because if you accept the concept that one species can mate with the other, than you'd also have to have half dwarf and half halfing as well.  Or half dwarf/orc, or halfling/elf, and whateever else.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;725279the core: elves, dwarves, and halflings

no half races like half elf or half orc, because if you accept the concept that one species can mate with the other, than you'd also have to have half dwarf and half halfing as well.  Or half dwarf/orc, or halfling/elf, and whateever else.

I've found the main solution to the problem is to go all JRRT on the elf/human/orc thing. Orcs = elfs made monstrous by ancient Dark Lord, but still genetically compatible. Well or humans made monstrous by ancient Dark Lord since it's humans they can mate with not elves. Or the three of them are simply very closely related...

But then I've kinda decided to go JRRT on orcs in my settings from now on, and also a bit like say Red Tide in a way, the orcs will be the most "human-looking" of the humanoid races. They'll basically look like evil-looking humans with pointed ears, fangs and yellow (or red, depending) eyes. While goblinoids will look way less human and more monstrous (allthough some years ago I considered to have hobgoblins be degenerate elves and goblins degenerate gnomes/halflings, but eh.).

Quote from: Spinachcat;725231As I've learned, the bastards want their elves and dwarves.

But WTF is high fantasy? It's almost worse to describe than S&S. Is Elric high fantasy? Is Sword of Shannara? Is Game of Thrones? Is Lord of the Rings?

LotR is High Fantasy by definition.  Shannara may be also.
Game of Thrones is definitely not.  Magic is just coming back to the world with the birth of new dragons.  Life is nasty, brutish and short, and so are most of the characters.

QuoteAre all D&D settings high fantasy? I can see Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance, but what about Dark Sun and Ravenloft?

That's not exactly the right question.  D&D at this point is its own thing.  Magic works in a way that it doesn't in the fantasy literature that came before it or even much of what came after it.  So Dark Sun, for instance is not so much High Fantasy as Swords & Sorcery.  It's not *exactly* S&S but it's as close as D&D gets.  You still have the D&D races but most of them have a strange new take to them.  Magic is not to be trusted.  Civilization is corrupt and controlling, as are the priests who live in it.  Most people don't have a lot of material possessions, but PCs are tough enough not to need them.  Ravenloft, by contrast, is trying to fit the D&D paradigm into old-time horror fiction, frequently based on Victorian-era tales or Universal Pictures that have little to do with D&D, let alone High Fantasy.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;725279the core: elves, dwarves, and halflings

no half races like half elf or half orc, because if you accept the concept that one species can mate with the other, than you'd also have to have half dwarf and half halfing as well.  Or half dwarf/orc, or halfling/elf, and whateever else.

This doesn't make sense to me, because that was literally the case in pre-history.

You have Neandthals, Humans, Denisovans all living at the same time and interbreeding, as well as apparently one more unknown source. And it's quite possible there was more interbreeding that went on but just never survived long enough to factor into anything and leave remnants in modern humans.

(And the different subraces of Hobbit/Halfling are part human/elf/dwarf. The Fallowhide/Tallfellow have human/elf blood, and the stoor/stout have dwarf blood)

Quote from: JeremyR;725420This doesn't make sense to me, because that was literally the case in pre-history.

You have Neandthals, Humans, Denisovans all living at the same time and interbreeding, as well as apparently one more unknown source. And it's quite possible there was more interbreeding that went on but just never survived long enough to factor into anything and leave remnants in modern humans.

(And the different subraces of Hobbit/Halfling are part human/elf/dwarf. The Fallowhide/Tallfellow have human/elf blood, and the stoor/stout have dwarf blood)

Perhaps I didn't word it very well.  If you allow half elves and half orcs (two completely different species from humans), then logically you'd also have to allow any mixed-species breed.  human/dwarf, halfling/orc, dwarf/elf, etc.  Half elves and half orcs have become a staple of many fantasy rpgs because...just because it was done that way.  For the most part.  And yet, we don't see half dwarves, halfling/orc or gnoll/elf mixes, etc as playable races in any fantasy rpg I can think of.

Quote from: James Gillen;725417LotR is High Fantasy by definition.

In the academic study of literary genres, "high fantasy" means "happens in a secondary world", which is to say not our Earth.  That's the actual definition of "high fantasy".

"Low fantasy" is fantasy that takes place on our Earth, although not necessarily in the present.

So all four of the original examples specified are high fantasy.  The Dresden Files is low fantasy.  Harry Potter is an interesting boundary condition, as it can be argued that the Wizarding world is a valid secondary world, despite that world being contained within our world.  English professors debate this sort of thing all the time, for it is of this that theses are made.

What most gamers mean when they say "high fantasy" is really "epic high fantasy".

Quote from: daniel_ream;725428In the academic study of literary genres, "high fantasy" means "happens in a secondary world", which is to say not our Earth.  That's the actual definition of "high fantasy".

"Low fantasy" is fantasy that takes place on our Earth, although not necessarily in the present.

So all four of the original examples specified are high fantasy.  The Dresden Files is low fantasy.  Harry Potter is an interesting boundary condition, as it can be argued that the Wizarding world is a valid secondary world, despite that world being contained within our world.  English professors debate this sort of thing all the time, for it is of this that theses are made.

What most gamers mean when they say "high fantasy" is really "epic high fantasy".

"Actual" or not it is the dumbest definition of high vs. low fantasy I've ever heard. Using setting as the sole determinant of genre without regard to themes, etc. etc. makes no sense.