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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: SHARK on August 06, 2022, 05:22:00 PM

Title: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: SHARK on August 06, 2022, 05:22:00 PM
Greetings!

In my Thandor Campaign, I have created many distinctive races of humanoids. Animal Hybrids, Reptilian Hybrids, Insect Hybrids, and more, in addition to Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, and Gnomes.

I also blend different Human races together, different ethnic groups, blending and creating distinctive and unique cultures.

Of course, historically, we have many examples. Siberians--a mix of North Asians, with Russians, Fiinns, Balts, and Norse. Evidently, Asian and European intermixing has been going on for thousands of years, going way back into prehistoric times.

Kazakhs--mixtures of Asian Steppe Nomads, Turks, and Europeans. Later on, of course, Mongols.

Hungarians--European stock of Slavs mixed with Asian Steppe Nomads. That is a pretty interesting story right there, of how the Kingdom of Hungary was revitalized by an official policy that mandated and encouraged blending with several Asian tribes that the Hungarian King invited into the Kingdom. Apparently, after years of fighting the Mongols, the native male population had of course suffered terribly. Then, along came some Asian Steppe tribes, trying to flee from the Mongols--and the Hungarian King said "Hey! We can help each other!"

Filipinos--Yes, look at the Phillipines. An interesting blend of white European Spaniards with Asian Island people. 500 years later, we have a distinct and wonderful Filipino culture and people.

Mexicans--Mexico, of course, blending Euopean Spaniards with Native Indian people. Now, 500 years later, Mexico may as well be their own race, forming a distinctive culture that blends their Spanish and Indian roots. More recently, with extra Gringo American spice.

There are many examples. I think it is fascinating how there can be two--or sometimes more!--cultural or racial influences, that combine, and create something new and distinct, different from the original foundations.

These kind of inspirations from history can contribute greatly to the fabric of a great game campaign. However, embracing such may unwittingly bring in more family and cultural details--especially influencing a character's background. I know some people get all squicky about having dreaded backgrounds that are fucking detailed, but to my mind, the depth, the details, and the fun make it worthwhile for a good campaign.

Fantasy campaigns of course not only have human groups, but also humanoid and crazy animal races. The variety is endless, and the different cultures that can be created and developed can be very interesting.

I highly recommend embracing such ideas for a great campaign!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: ForgottenF on August 06, 2022, 10:14:51 PM
I suppose there is an interesting question there, from a verisimilitude perspective. If there were multiple sentient humanoid species living on the same world could they interbreed? In real life, different species usually can't, and on the rare cases where they can, the offspring usually suffer from severe genetic or health problems. I remember the YouTuber Lindybeige did a video years ago suggesting that Half-Elves should be infertile, like mules are in the real world.

Of course once you're in a realm of fantasy, you have the option of ignoring genetics, and then you can produce interesting narrative concepts (like how in Lord of the Rings, half-elves essentially get to choose between their two or ancestry, or how in Goblin Slayer, all goblins are male and have to rely on human captives to reproduce). Personally I feel like those kind of ideas make the most of the concept of multiple intelligent species in a setting.

But assuming you do have a world where different humanoids can mix just the same way that groups of humans can, then I suppose you have the question of why there are still distinct races? You would think that after a long enough period of time, a large percentage of people would be some level of elf-human-dwarf-gnome hybrid. (As you pointed out, most historical cultures are the product of some kind of ethnic mix). If that's going to be the case, then it can end up defeating the purpose of having all those different species in the first place. If not, I feel like you kind of have to justify why. Maybe it's because the different species are alienated from each other, or only recently came into contact. Maybe its due to cultural taboos against race mixing, or maybe the gods disapprove of it on the grounds that cosmopolitanism causes them to lose their believers. I do feel like you ought to do something with it, though, if it's going to be a major feature of the setting.
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 06, 2022, 10:19:29 PM
Yeah, no, in my game world none of the species can interbreed with one another. And more often than not all of the supernatural ones are Evil.

Now, mixing different cultures? Heck to the yeah! But only if those cultures are from the same species or if two species manage to cohexist peacefully with one another.
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: Hzilong on August 07, 2022, 03:18:30 AM
Intra-species mixing? Sure. Human cultures should definitely be a product of cross pollination. Tropical merfolk I imagine have vastly different cultural practices from arctic merfolk, and when they meet in temperate water, that community should have influences of both.

I am not entirely opposed to half-whatever species as it can be an interesting trope, but most of the time the execution falls short as people rarely play them as an actual offspring of two vastly different philosophies born out of things like different physiology and lifespan.

I got around this by just making dwarves, orcs, and elves mutant offshoots of humans. So they can interbreed, but the offspring will almost always cleave more closely to one genetic line.
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: S'mon on August 07, 2022, 05:16:37 AM
Your campaign sounds like London! I was at a wedding table yesterday with three women: my lovely Kazakh-Russian gf, a Filipino-Pakistani, and an Ulster-Nigerian  ;D

In world, hm I typically add a small number such as half-dwarves, and 5e D&D already has a lot of mixed-race 'races' such as Half-Elf, Tiefling, Aasimar, Half-Orc. IMCs Goliath are typically a human/stone giant magical cross. My son is playing a Warhammer Kroxiger, likely a lizardman/crocodile cross  ;D Dragonborn IMC are a human/dragon cross. 
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: Steven Mitchell on August 07, 2022, 07:43:05 AM
With races, I don't like the mushy middle of things like half elves.  Instead, I want either separate species that can't interbreed at all (barring strange, rare magic, that usually produces sterile results) or a coherent fantastical genetics that fits the setting.  Not my favorite, but as an example, various settings where everyone is really human DNA that's been magically changed over eons.  If elves seem like humans with pointy ears, it's because in some ways they are!

On culture, the more the better. However, I'm quite happy if there is little to no mechanical effects from culture, especially after starting.  It can be constraining.  In my own system, I'm still tinkering with the parameters, but basically it's slightly better reactions when you first meet someone of a compatible culture.  Then toss that in with some different starting options.  It's meant to inspire an idea/background/concept for the character without needing to write an essay.  If that comes with some built in hooks for language, clothes, manners, etc., so much the better.

I very much like culture separated from race in the mechanics, though.  Then you don't need to deal with the odd effects of individual of race X raised by parents of race Y in culture Z.  X is the race he is, no special changes requires, in a culture odd for that character. 
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2022, 08:51:49 AM
I ran a D&D game where true elves (the full-blooded type) were virtually extinct and what everyone called elves were mechanically half-elves. They represented not elf/human hybrids, but humams exposed to the fey realms formerly ruled over by the the true elves. The nature of their offspring depended on where conception occurred: the child was a (half-)elf if it happened in a fey realm, or human otherwise. As for the true elves, they were not inter-fertile with humans (or half-elves) at all.
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: Svenhelgrim on August 07, 2022, 09:50:24 AM
In the Dark Sun setting, there were Half-dwarves, they were called Muls (Mules) and they were infertile.  That is the only time I have ever seen an dwarf-mix.  Even orcs won’t try it with dearves.  Dwarves don’t get no love…except from other dwarves, and the occasional human on Athas.

Today’s D&D party looks more like a furry convention. You have cat people, turtle-people, owl-people, lion-people, rabbit-people…the list goes on.  Now I think it is kinda ridiculous, but if the players really want that shit, then I will allow it.  Expecially if I am running a setting like Forgotten Realms where it’s anything goes.  Who am I to kill their fun?

In today’s Forgotten Realms you are more likely to find a Half-genasi, half vampire, half-illithid, goat person than you are a human, male, fighter.  Couple that with the fact that the entire population of Farûn is in a same-sex marriage, they won’t be able to reproduce, causing a significant population decline.  Then the demons can pour out of the abyss and take over…
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2022, 09:54:12 AM
In the Dark Sun setting, there were Half-dwarves, they were called Muls (Mules) and they were infertile.  That is the only time I have ever seen an dwarf-mix.  Even orcs won’t try it with dearves.  Dwarves don’t get no love…except from other dwarves, and the occasional human on Athas.

Today’s D&D party looks more like a furry convention. You have cat people, turtle-people, owl-people, lion-people, rabbit-people…the list goes on.  Now I think it is kinda ridiculous, but if the players really want that shit, then I will allow it.  Expecially if I am running a setting like Forgotten Realms where it’s anything goes.  Who am I to kill their fun?

In today’s Forgotten Realms you are more likely to find a Half-genasi, half vampire, half-illithid, goat person than you are a human, male, fighter.  Couple that with the fact that the entire population of Farûn is in a same-sex marriage, the won’t be able to reproduce, causing a significant population decline.  Then the demons can pour out of the abyss and take over…
I'm almost sure that something in FR will allow same sex couples to have children. Let's call it...magic. Yeah, magic, that's the ticket.
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: ForgottenF on August 07, 2022, 11:21:52 AM
I got around this by just making dwarves, orcs, and elves mutant offshoots of humans. So they can interbreed, but the offspring will almost always cleave more closely to one genetic line.

I think that might be how Shadowrun does it? I seem to recall something about how everyone was human until some magic event turned some people into elves, trolls etc.
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: HappyDaze on August 07, 2022, 11:23:57 AM
I got around this by just making dwarves, orcs, and elves mutant offshoots of humans. So they can interbreed, but the offspring will almost always cleave more closely to one genetic line.

I think that might be how Shadowrun does it? I seem to recall something about how everyone was human until some magic event turned some people into elves, trolls etc.
And then special snowflake changelings...and the setting got dumber ever after.
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: ForgottenF on August 07, 2022, 11:37:10 AM
In the Dark Sun setting, there were Half-dwarves, they were called Muls (Mules) and they were infertile.  That is the only time I have ever seen an dwarf-mix.  Even orcs won’t try it with dearves.  Dwarves don’t get no love…except from other dwarves, and the occasional human on Athas.

Today’s D&D party looks more like a furry convention. You have cat people, turtle-people, owl-people, lion-people, rabbit-people…the list goes on.  Now I think it is kinda ridiculous, but if the players really want that shit, then I will allow it.  Expecially if I am running a setting like Forgotten Realms where it’s anything goes.  Who am I to kill their fun?

In today’s Forgotten Realms you are more likely to find a Half-genasi, half vampire, half-illithid, goat person than you are a human, male, fighter.  Couple that with the fact that the entire population of Farûn is in a same-sex marriage, they won’t be able to reproduce, causing a significant population decline.  Then the demons can pour out of the abyss and take over…

If you want to have some fun with that, go on Google Images and search "my dnd character". Skinny, tattooed, nonhuman magic-users as far as the eye can see.
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: Koltar on August 07, 2022, 12:43:44 PM
I am running a GURPS Star Trek campaign set in the year 2261 - this isn't really an issue.

The only 'half and half' or hybrid known in Starfleet is Lt Spock - and he is on the Enterprise, not the featured starship of the campaign.

Just really isn't an issue.

- Ed C.
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: Rob Necronomicon on August 07, 2022, 01:25:28 PM
I know some people get all squicky about having dreaded backgrounds that are fucking detailed, but to my mind, the depth, the details, and the fun make it worthwhile for a good campaign.

Fantasy campaigns of course not only have human groups, but also humanoid and crazy animal races. The variety is endless, and the different cultures that can be created and developed can be very interesting.

I highly recommend embracing such ideas for a great campaign!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yep, nothing wrong at all with having a detailed background especially if you're expecting to be playing a longer campaign. And mixing things up as you say provides a great source of inspiration and also adds lots for the GM to get hold of. That's one of the reasons I really like Hyperborea.




Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: Effete on August 07, 2022, 02:02:31 PM
In the Dark Sun setting, there were Half-dwarves, they were called Muls (Mules) and they were infertile.  That is the only time I have ever seen an dwarf-mix.

Aren't Derro a dwarf-human crossbreed?
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: ForgottenF on August 07, 2022, 03:03:23 PM
I know some people get all squicky about having dreaded backgrounds that are fucking detailed, but to my mind, the depth, the details, and the fun make it worthwhile for a good campaign.

Fantasy campaigns of course not only have human groups, but also humanoid and crazy animal races. The variety is endless, and the different cultures that can be created and developed can be very interesting.

I highly recommend embracing such ideas for a great campaign!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yep, nothing wrong at all with having a detailed background especially if you're expecting to be playing a longer campaign. And mixing things up as you say provides a great source of inspiration and also adds lots for the GM to get hold of. That's one of the reasons I really like Hyperborea.

I actually find its the other way around. Detailed backstories can be an asset in a shorter campaign, where there isn't time to flesh out the characters in game. In a longer game, the written backstories should get superseded by the history the characters build through actual play.

I think the hatred a lot of DMs have for detailed backstories comes down to personal experience of one of two things.

1. It can be a way of putting pressure on the DM to run a particular type of campaign, which the DM might not to. If one of my players turns up with a backstory all about their mysterious older brother, that creates an expectation that that character will have an important role in the campaign. I'm currently running a campaign where I told my players up front it would be concentrated on a group of five different countries on an island, and one of my players has a backstory entirely built around political conflict on a different continent. I could completely ignore that, but the player is going to be disappointed if it doesn't come up at some point down the road.

2. Players failing to exercise discipline in writing their backstories. I once ran a Cyberpunk game and had a player show up with her starting level character, but with a backstory of how she was a beautiful hacking prodigy from a wealthy family (none of which was reflected on her character sheet), with an established romance with a character she made up and added into the campaign world. She was clearly more invested in her elaborate head-canon about the character than she was in anything going on in the game. Later I played in a Faerun game with the same group, and another one of the players came in with a character that was Khelben Blackstaff's niece and a senior Moonstar at the beginning of the campaign. As a player, that's a non-issue, but as a DM it would have annoyed me.
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 07, 2022, 03:32:01 PM
In Eberron the half-orcs and half-elves have become self-sustaining populations.
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: Ruprecht on August 11, 2022, 05:46:07 PM
I've always had no-interspecies breeding. Half Elves are Elves that have assimilated into human culture, the term is a bit of a slur from other elves. Half Orcs are Orcs that have assimilated into human culture. The term is a compliment from well-meaning humans suggesting they aren't so bad as those other Orcs. Different diets and such account for the mechanical differences with the rest of their race.
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: ShieldWife on August 11, 2022, 09:49:48 PM
I’ve long thought that magical lineages were cool. Basically, some kind of supernatural creature reproduced with humans in the point in the past and now there are hybrid races or families that combine human and supernatural characteristics.

Elves are a mixture between humans and faeries of the forest. Dwarves are descended from faeries of the earth. Orcs are a mixture between humans and evil monster ours fae like the Fomori. In other settings, these hybrids aren’t races but families who have great powers and/or influence based on supernatural abilities inherited from magical ancestors, sometimes these powers are preserved through inbreeding to maintain purity.
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: Thorn Drumheller on August 11, 2022, 09:55:50 PM
I’ve long thought that magical lineages were cool. Basically, some kind of supernatural creature reproduced with humans in the point in the past and now there are hybrid races or families that combine human and supernatural characteristics.

Elves are a mixture between humans and faeries of the forest. Dwarves are descended from faeries of the earth. Orcs are a mixture between humans and evil monster ours fae like the Fomori. In other settings, these hybrids aren’t races but families who have great powers and/or influence based on supernatural abilities inherited from magical ancestors, sometimes these powers are preserved through inbreeding to maintain purity.

That's a freakin fascinating take. I like it. Thanks for the idea.
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: Thorn Drumheller on August 11, 2022, 09:57:01 PM
I've always had no-interspecies breeding. Half Elves are Elves that have assimilated into human culture, the term is a bit of a slur from other elves. Half Orcs are Orcs that have assimilated into human culture. The term is a compliment from well-meaning humans suggesting they aren't so bad as those other Orcs. Different diets and such account for the mechanical differences with the rest of their race.

Another excellent idea. That's one of the things I love about this forum. The brilliance of ideas.
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: SHARK on August 11, 2022, 11:41:56 PM
I know some people get all squicky about having dreaded backgrounds that are fucking detailed, but to my mind, the depth, the details, and the fun make it worthwhile for a good campaign.

Fantasy campaigns of course not only have human groups, but also humanoid and crazy animal races. The variety is endless, and the different cultures that can be created and developed can be very interesting.

I highly recommend embracing such ideas for a great campaign!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yep, nothing wrong at all with having a detailed background especially if you're expecting to be playing a longer campaign. And mixing things up as you say provides a great source of inspiration and also adds lots for the GM to get hold of. That's one of the reasons I really like Hyperborea.

I actually find its the other way around. Detailed backstories can be an asset in a shorter campaign, where there isn't time to flesh out the characters in game. In a longer game, the written backstories should get superseded by the history the characters build through actual play.

I think the hatred a lot of DMs have for detailed backstories comes down to personal experience of one of two things.

1. It can be a way of putting pressure on the DM to run a particular type of campaign, which the DM might not to. If one of my players turns up with a backstory all about their mysterious older brother, that creates an expectation that that character will have an important role in the campaign. I'm currently running a campaign where I told my players up front it would be concentrated on a group of five different countries on an island, and one of my players has a backstory entirely built around political conflict on a different continent. I could completely ignore that, but the player is going to be disappointed if it doesn't come up at some point down the road.

2. Players failing to exercise discipline in writing their backstories. I once ran a Cyberpunk game and had a player show up with her starting level character, but with a backstory of how she was a beautiful hacking prodigy from a wealthy family (none of which was reflected on her character sheet), with an established romance with a character she made up and added into the campaign world. She was clearly more invested in her elaborate head-canon about the character than she was in anything going on in the game. Later I played in a Faerun game with the same group, and another one of the players came in with a character that was Khelben Blackstaff's niece and a senior Moonstar at the beginning of the campaign. As a player, that's a non-issue, but as a DM it would have annoyed me.

Greetings!

Good points, ForgottenF! Yeah, I can see how those two problem would be frustrating.

I suppose I am spoiled. My players in my home games are all mature folks, and they abide by my instructions, guidelines, and parameters for character creation and development.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: SHARK on August 12, 2022, 12:05:56 AM
Greetings!

In my Thandor campaign, I wanted to establish where Humans were ascending somewhat to a dominant position--but only in ome regions of the world. There are many areas under the control of monsters. I also have reptilian humanoids that are fiercely seeking to maintain their power--and also to expand their dominion. I have several different races of reptilian humanoids, which they themselves live in different regions for the most part, with only some degree of overlap.

Mainly speaking, I have divided them into four major races;

(A): This group is a quasi-primitive, barbarian tribal culture, very widespread, that proliferate throughout jungles, swamps, and marshlands.

(B): The second major group are highly civilized and embrace a sophisticated culture that loosely resembles a Classical Roman Empire.

(C): The third group are brightly-coloured reptilian humanoids that live in both jungle environments, as well as desert environments. While adaptable, the race has two main cultural elements--one is a savage, barbarian tribal culture, while the other culture group is a civilized culture, typically living in decadent ruins and urban city-states, seeking to rebuild their lost, ancient glory.

(D): The fourth racial group are related to the others--being reptilian--but their ancestry is much more rooted within Dinosaur heritage, as most have tyrannosaurus heads. The fourth racial group of reptilians are somewhat of a long-recovering remnant from an ancient, global empire that possessed superior technology and vast magical abilities. These occasionally live amongst other reptilian races, while others remain exclusively in isolated fortress cities, hidden away from much of the world.

I often like mixing different races and cultural templates. It creates many adventure and story opportunities!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: FingerRod on August 12, 2022, 07:19:42 AM
Sounds like a fun set of campaigns/worlds there SHARK.

I’ve never done a lot outside the boring half-elf. 2e was probably my primary influence, next to Basic, so not a lot of half-orcs either. I guess the closest would be dwarven clans mixing, which was fairly interesting.
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: wmarshal on August 12, 2022, 08:08:01 AM
In the Dark Sun setting, there were Half-dwarves, they were called Muls (Mules) and they were infertile.  That is the only time I have ever seen an dwarf-mix.

Aren't Derro a dwarf-human crossbreed?
That was true at least in 1st edition.

In my game they were essentially ageless after reaching the effective age of 30. That’s why some have the abilities of sages as those are the ones that are really old (older than any living elf) and just remember a lot. Their numbers were limited by always being born male (they weren’t given any demographics for female and young members), and they could only reproduce by mating with a human female, though that may have been a whacked idea coming from overthinking why the numbers of an ageless population would find a limit when just trying to survive in the Underdark could be the limiting factor. They would have had a hand in the Twin Cataclysms by giving deliberately self-destructive advice to the Suel, and helping to develop the Invoked Devastation.
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: SHARK on August 14, 2022, 12:19:15 PM
Greetings!

Different species *can* interbreed with each other. The article discusses how the evidence emerged of Neanderthals mating with Denisovans, and producing offspring. Neanderthals and Denisovans are two distinctly different species of humans.

Interesting!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/ancient-child-thought-to-be-only-known-individual-whose-parents-were-two-different-species/ar-AA10Digx?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: Wrath of God on September 22, 2022, 08:12:36 PM
Quote
Different species *can* interbreed with each other. The article discusses how the evidence emerged of Neanderthals mating with Denisovans, and producing offspring. Neanderthals and Denisovans are two distinctly different species of humans.

Yes, but classification of Neanderthal and Denisovian as separate species and not subspecies of Homo sapiens is dubious.
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: Kyle Aaron on September 22, 2022, 08:32:10 PM
There is no race-mixing in my campaigns: there are only humans, and monsters.

Of course, humans fight amongst themselves. But so do orcs, goblins, dragons and so on. You don't need them to be different races to fight, even Cain and Abel fought and they were actually brothers.
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: Osman Gazi on September 22, 2022, 08:38:41 PM
Quote
Different species *can* interbreed with each other. The article discusses how the evidence emerged of Neanderthals mating with Denisovans, and producing offspring. Neanderthals and Denisovans are two distinctly different species of humans.

Yes, but classification of Neanderthal and Denisovian as separate species and not subspecies of Homo sapiens is dubious.

Taxonomic distinctions are of course always debatable, but there are reasons for considering various human populations--Homo Sapiens, Neanderthal, Denisovan, Homo Erectus, Homo floresiensis (all of which co-existed on the earth for several thousand years long ago)--as separate species.

Here's a pretty good layman's account of species: https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelmarshalleurope/2018/08/28/a-long-busted-myth-its-not-true-that-animals-belonging-to-different-species-can-never-interbreed/?sh=6e43e2283e65 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelmarshalleurope/2018/08/28/a-long-busted-myth-its-not-true-that-animals-belonging-to-different-species-can-never-interbreed/?sh=6e43e2283e65)
Title: Re: Race Mixing In The Campaign!
Post by: The Spaniard on September 23, 2022, 05:50:54 PM
I only allow 1/2 Elves and 1/2 Orcs in my campaign.  Others are not interesting and/or don't make any sense.  Many of the human cultures in the world are influenced by others though.  This naturally happens through trade, invasion, etc.