Quote from: RPGPundit;343067There were a couple of situations for our Halfling where his low HP got him in trouble (and by "in trouble" I mean to say it killed him), but the other PCs would just resurrect him. Generally, since he had wicked-good AC and Saving Throws by then, it wasn't too big a deal.

RPGPundit

I would expect the cleric would have a resurrect handy at all times for just such an occasion.

Turning the idea over in my head, though, I wonder if that would make for a good set of rules.  Start out class-and-level based until about 10th level or something, then transition to a skill based system.  Kind of like public education in most places.  The first six years or so, your classes are the same as everyone else's, and you have pretty much no choice in the matter.  The next two or three years, you have some choice in your class structure, the next four provides even more leeway, then you are wide open in your choices for university.

Quote from: StormBringer;343136...
Turning the idea over in my head, though, I wonder if that would make for a good set of rules.  Start out class-and-level based until about 10th level or something, then transition to a skill based system...

That's the basic idea behind 'E6', no?  You use the core D&D 3e rules up until level 6.  After that, nobody improves in levels, but you can buy additional feats by spending experience points.

If I were to ever run 3e again (an extremely unlikely event), I would use the E6 rules.

Quote from: Akrasia;343182That's the basic idea behind 'E6', no?  You use the core D&D 3e rules up until level 6.  After that, nobody improves in levels, but you can buy additional feats by spending experience points.

If I were to ever run 3e again (an extremely unlikely event), I would use the E6 rules.

...I have never heard of 'E6' before. Link?

Quote from: Akrasia;343182That's the basic idea behind 'E6', no?  You use the core D&D 3e rules up until level 6.  After that, nobody improves in levels, but you can buy additional feats by spending experience points.

If I were to ever run 3e again (an extremely unlikely event), I would use the E6 rules.

I was under the impression that E6 games stopped all progression at 6th level, no further improvement.  If you can buy feats after 6th level, it is kind of the idea I was going for, but I was thinking of a strictly class-and-level based, like AD&D, without any skills whatsoever.  If the transition is 10th level, then at 8th level or something you can get a few skills and start improving them, maybe some cross class stuff, then at 10th level, all class based progression stops.  No more hit points, no more spells, nothing improves automatically after that.  Weapon skills are then treated as bonuses for attacks, spells or spell levels are bought individually, or current spells can be improved in a like manner; each skill point grants a bonus to one or more of the spell attributes.  Maybe another 'level' of damage, or another 'level' of range.  Depending on the distribution of skill points, all level based variables for a spell could be improved.

With the flexibility of a skill based system like that, I would imagine the group could decide the cut-off for level based play.  If they decided ahead of time or on the spur of the moment, or even just individually, it wouldn't matter much.  The level based portion would need to have an XP scale that matches the skill based part in a more linear fashion.  Perhaps 5xp per encounter, more for heroics and quick thinking, less for easy opponents or exceptionally bad plans.  Make each 'level' 150 or 200 XP, then the players get a tenth of that as improvement points once they get to the skill-based part.  Set the skills as escalating in cost and it should be good to roll.

Example:  Everyone makes 10th level, and in the course of several more adventures, gets 150xp.  That converts to 15 improvement points, which can be spread around for a minor bonus to several skills, or someone may decide to blow the whole thing to get a +5 on attack rolls with a sword (1+2+3+4+5=15).

This does tend to favour a game with a unified mechanic.  Using AD&D as an example again, Thieves use d% for pick locks and such, so a flat +1 would be rather useless, really.  Of course, you can set each subsystem to handle the improvement point in its own way.  Unified mechanics are not often seen in vintage games, after all.  

I should probably stop blathering about this and get something written.

What is this E6 and where does it come from?

RPGPundit

Quote from: Narf the Mouse;343201...I have never heard of 'E6' before. Link?

The PDF: http://esix.pbworks.com/f/E6v041.pdf

The website (which has other things by the E6 designer): http://esix.pbworks.com/

Quote from: StormBringer;343218I was under the impression that E6 games stopped all progression at 6th level, no further improvement...

Well, it would hardly be worth talking about in that case, no?  It would simply be standard 3e with a cap at level 6.

According to the E6 rules you can purchase additional feats for 5000 experience points.

Quote from: Akrasia;343269Well, it would hardly be worth talking about in that case, no?  It would simply be standard 3e with a cap at level 6.

A good point.  You see my initial confusion, then.  

QuoteAccording to the E6 rules you can purchase additional feats for 5000 experience points.

I was never terribly impressed with feats, to be honest, but that is the general idea.  I prefer skills that can be improved in any manner a player desires over feats by a wide margin, so I would focus more on gaining skills or levels in current skills.

Quote from: StormBringer;343282...
I was never terribly impressed with feats, to be honest, but that is the general idea.  I prefer skills that can be improved in any manner a player desires over feats by a wide margin, so I would focus more on gaining skills or levels in current skills.

I hate feats with the heat of a thousand burning suns (at least as implemented in 3e/4e).  I hate, hate, hate the whole 'exception-to-rules' mechanic of most feats.

In contrast, I have no problem with skills, since skills involve consistent mechanics (i.e., they are not 'exception-based').

So yeah, I share your tastes.  

Still, the power level of E6 makes it the only version of d20 -- well, aside from Microlite20 -- that I would ever consider running again.

Hmm, very interesting.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Akrasia;343317I hate feats with the heat of a thousand burning suns (at least as implemented in 3e/4e).  I hate, hate, hate the whole 'exception-to-rules' mechanic of most feats.

In contrast, I have no problem with skills, since skills involve consistent mechanics (i.e., they are not 'exception-based').

So yeah, I share your tastes.  

Still, the power level of E6 makes it the only version of d20 -- well, aside from Microlite20 -- that I would ever consider running again.

I don't see what your problem is with it.

Everyone gets to try and trip you back if you try to trip them, unless you take improved trip. If you invest in improved trip, you are too good for that to happen to you. What's not to like?

A lot of D&D people love looking up rules, or just knowing them all off hand.

Does it bother you that it is more stuff to remember, or that it just isn't fair?

Quote from: Cranewings;343508I don't see what your problem is with it.

People have different tastes in games.  

Quote from: Cranewings;343508A lot of D&D people love looking up rules, or just knowing them all off hand.

Yeah, see, I'm not one of those people.  That's why I prefer older versions of D&D, at least as GM.

Quote from: Cranewings;343508Does it bother you that it is more stuff to remember, or that it just isn't fair?

It has nothing to do with 'fairness'.  The 'more stuff to remember' is irritating.  Keeping in mind the special effects of hundreds of feats?  Ugh.  I'm too old and lazy for that crap.  

Ultimately, though, I find the mechanic intrinsically clunky and aesthetically ugly.  It is clunky to have a game with the following structure: (a) here are the rules to govern the actions of PCs and NPCs; (b) now here are hundreds of fiddly exceptions to those rules (often with their own 'sub-rules').  Blech!

In contrast, a system like BRP which uses skills is not 'exception-based'.  The same rules apply, all the time, without exception.  Some PCs/NPCs will be much more skilled at certain things than others, and thus enjoy much greater success rates at those things than others.  No need to create 'exceptions' to the rules for those characters.  The overall structure is far more parsimonious.

To some extent, the same thing is true of older versions of D&D.  Higher level characters will have a greater chance to hit, make their saving rolls, etc., than lower level characters, but the basic mechanic is the same.  (I'll concede that there are some 'exception-based' rules in older D&D, but they are far, far fewer in number than 'feats' in 3e and 4e.)

Phew!  It felt good to get that off my chest.  

Quote from: Cranewings;343508Everyone gets to try and trip you back if you try to trip them, unless you take improved trip. If you invest in improved trip, you are too good for that to happen to you. What's not to like?

As a huge fan of feats, plenty. I'd prefer if maneuvers like tripping, disarming, sundering, etc. all came with a penalty and the feats just nixed the penalty, rather than having all these silly superfluous circumstances surrounding maneuvers (getting tripped back being a perfect example) and four or five different ways to be good at the same task.

EDIT: And more on topic, I'm with those that dislike level limits. They either don't come into play, in which case why have them? Or they're a hard to justify in-world pain in the ass. I'd have less of a problem with xp penalties past a certain level.

I actually agree w/ you two.