Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1024834And that's why there are far more metal and 3D-printed figures than collectible cards in the world. Whatever, dude.

And thats why there are far more dead CCG companies. Try rubbing two brain cells together dude.

Yes. You ARE a moron. Try again please.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1024836I've read from other sources that CCGs are surprisingly expensive to produce, but never exactly why. The large volume of cards? The art? Long playtests?

Art. Each card costs 200-500$ each. There is a huge investment at the start. Its a one off investment. but if your game doesnt sell then thats possibly tens of thousands of dollars lost. Printing is relatively cheap. anywhere from 4c a card to a bit more or less depending on quantity and printer. About 2$ to print a 50 card deck was what we got quoted from one printer. Minis present similar problems. Sculpts cost alot and the molds cost alot. Pressing is relatively cheap.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1024852I've been told by an industry contact it's the cards themselves; there are, it seems, very few printing plants in the world that can print, coat, die-cut, sort, and package the cards and their packing all in-house - which does cut costs vs. having to send the product around to specialists. Since the production capacity is so restricted, the CCG publisher has to pay a premium for a place in the production schedule.

Shouldnt. Any playing card printer can handle the printing and cutting. Boxing may or may not come with that. But card game printers are fairly easy to come by. But the more picky you are or the more effects in the pressing like UV coats and such will start to put various limits. Had not death and illness hit them Mark and Susan would still be cranking out Dragon Storm cards.

Theres also now POD companies that can do so-so to not bad prints. I think even Drive-throu does card printing now? Though thats not cost effective as of last check.

It's kind of a shame, but they haven't done anything significant in ages.

Quote from: Omega;1024862Shouldnt. Any playing card printer can handle the printing and cutting. Boxing may or may not come with that. But card game printers are fairly easy to come by. But the more picky you are or the more effects in the pressing like UV coats and such will start to put various limits. Had not death and illness hit them Mark and Susan would still be cranking out Dragon Storm cards.

Theres also now POD companies that can do so-so to not bad prints. I think even Drive-throu does card printing now? Though thats not cost effective as of last check.

I am pretty sure you're right; the actual card printing and die cutting should be pretty cheap - I think it's all the fancy stuff (coating, sorting, packing, etc.) that comes after that that adds to the costs, as you mentioned.

I'm sure it's much closer to baseball cards than playing cards. Both in how quickly you have to have a whole set out the door after the designs have been finalized, to getting an appropriately random distribution in the packs, to stupid stuff like ensuring five of the next sets' breakout card don't walk out in the least-well-compensated employee's back pocket.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;1024805I thought Settlers of Catalan was a breakout hit. What happened?

Sure, it was the breakout hit of 1995. Even with continued expansions, spinoffs, and the like, you eventually need a second hit to justify continuing to have a design staff (and company). Look at how well Steve Jackson is doing with having gone all-in on Munchkin, and they still have all the distribution rights (and it is easier to make a 'Cthulu Munchkin' expansion than it is to continuously throw new versions of Catan at the market).

I work in a white-collar field and I keep meeting among my co-workers non-nerds who wouldn't be caught dead pretending to be a dark elf in the back of a comics shop, but who think board games have a kind of hip, urban chachet and who have played or at least heard of Settlers of Catan. It's a real shame Mayfair wasn't able to tap this.

Everything is getting more expensive as well. Speaking for myself I can see myself spending 40-50$ on a board game. I cannot justify spending more. I'm sure I'm not the only one. It's the same way everyone is saying they will buy the First Edition reprint of Star Wars D6 rpg without probably looking at the price tag. I think it's 55-60$ US about 75-80$ Canadian. How many gamers have that much money to spend in large numbers.

QuoteEverything is getting more expensive as well. Speaking for myself I can see myself spending 40-50$ on a board game

Yeah price is definitely a limiting factor for me. For instance I'd love to buy more of GMT games hex and counter war games but many of run around 80 dollars. I simply can't afford that on anything near a regular basis.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1025229I am pretty sure you're right; the actual card printing and die cutting should be pretty cheap - I think it's all the fancy stuff (coating, sorting, packing, etc.) that comes after that that adds to the costs, as you mentioned.

Not much really and most CCGs went with standard. Dragon Storm had an extra coat on theirs while Magic was bog standard. Linen I dont know the added cost on and personally I hate the look and feel of linen backed cards.

Quantity is a factor, a quick check for a standard 54 deck is about 9c a card for a single deck, 8c for 10 decks, 6c for 100, and 5c for 1000 decks. (Around 3000$ + 360$ for shipping) Not including wrapper, box or rules. Bemusingly the box sometimes costs as much as or more than the game that is in it.

Art is the real killer. From what I know of the artists I priced back then Magic cost around 120 grand in art alone.  Thats a huge amount to sink into an as yet unknown and you have to sell something like 30k starters just to maybee break even on the art.

Back on topic.

When was the last time Mayfair did an RPG. Looks like all they have done since at least 2000 on have been board games. And some big hits too like Agricola and La Havre, and... holy smokes they reprinted Tom Whams Iron Dragon??? :eek:

Quote from: Omega;1025798Art is the real killer. From what I know of the artists I priced back then Magic cost around 120 grand in art alone.  Thats a huge amount to sink into an as yet unknown and you have to sell something like 30k starters just to maybee break even on the art.

This is probably one reason there were a bunch of CCGs with IPs a few years back.  (I haven't seen any recently.)  Whatever they pay on royalties, it's likely less than new art would be since they can just use artwork from the show.  (I remember that there was a Naruto one which actually got decent reviews - though I never played it or any of the other IP ones other than Warcraft - though I never bought into that one either.)

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1025807This is probably one reason there were a bunch of CCGs with IPs a few years back.  (I haven't seen any recently.)  Whatever they pay on royalties, it's likely less than new art would be since they can just use artwork from the show.  (I remember that there was a Naruto one which actually got decent reviews - though I never played it or any of the other IP ones other than Warcraft - though I never bought into that one either.)

Actually... To use an IP you have to pay the owner of the IP. Animayhem for example had a deal with various distributors and got in early enough to ride the wave before it crashed. All stock art so they likely payed out about as much for the IPs as a normal CCG does for art. IPs are usually not cheap. Irs why FFG eventually dropped Games Workshop as the IP cost was getting past the profit range.

And not all IP CCGs use stock art. Pokemon for example uses new art. But WOTC just ports it over from Japan so they just have the IP cost. (Least till 2003. Not sure after that.) IP games can get really messy. This I know from hands on experience and being a playtester for a few games now that had their IP agreements yanked at the proberbial 11th hour in a few cases.

Speaking of IP licenses. Mayfair did that to publish Settlers of Catan and Cosmic Encounter.

And bemusingly Mayfair was one of the few publishers to not kill themselves jumping on the CCG bandwagon. Sim City CCG. Probably because all they had to do was go out with a camera and photo stuff. :cool:

Quote from: Omega;1025879Actually... To use an IP you have to pay the owner of the IP.

Hence my mention of "Whatever they pay on royalties, it's likely less than new art would be..."

Quote from: Omega;1025879And not all IP CCGs use stock art. Pokemon for example uses new art.

For Pokemon - the CCG came first.  The show & video games came later - so it's not an IP at all.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1025894For Pokemon - the CCG came first.  The show & video games came later - so it's not an IP at all.

Um... you are aware the Gameboy games came first right? Obviously not. And Yes it is an IP. WOTC had to license the CCG  from Japan to release in the US.

Game Boy Games 2 1996
CCG Game 10 1996
Anime Series 4 1997

Quote from: Omega;1025910Um... you are aware the Gameboy games came first right? Obviously not. And Yes it is an IP. WOTC had to license the CCG  from Japan to release in the US.

Game Boy Games 2 1996
CCG Game 10 1996
Anime Series 4 1997

Huh - I guess that I feel the dumbs now.

Well - that being the case - the art for the first games were pretty limited due to Gameboy - so the art wouldn't really be usable as-is.