Quote from: Daztur;841380Very much so. GRRM has said as much.

Huh, interesting! I hadn't actually seen him say so, but to anyone familiar with the War of the Roses it seems pretty clear.

Darth Vader is the obvious choice.

Another would be Pike Bishop, a cold-blooded killer who talks a good game about loyalty and doing what's best for the group and keeping his word, yet doesn't hesitate to screw over or kill friend and foe alike. He bails on Deke Thornton, Crazy Lee and was all prepared to leave Angel to a horrible fate until he was forced to go back to town.

Simon Gruber from Die Hard 3.

The terrorist looking to crash the US economy, the bomb threats, all these ridiculous pretensions.  He's just looking to cash out an enormous paycheck.  It's the only thing he truly cares about.

Quote from: Elfdart;841995Darth Vader is the obvious choice.

Care to elaborate?

With Game of Thrones, what about Ramsay Snow -Bolton?  I know he seems to lean towards chaos, but to me he just stinks of Pure Evil.  He hurts, murders, tortures, all for his own pleasure.

Quote from: RPGPundit;842351Care to elaborate?

He's all for law, order, hierarchy, putting the group before the individual...

...until it becomes inconvenient for him. The Jedi Code is fine and dandy as a way to get out of being a slave, but when it gets between him and getting into Padme's pants, he tosses it aside like yesterday's garbage.

The second fight with Dooku is pretty telling when juxtaposed with the scene in Palpatine's office. He hesitates to kill Dooku after chopping off his hands, knowing it's not what a Jedi is supposed to do. But this is his one chance to get some payback, so off with Christopher Lee's head.

Later, Mace Windu has Palpatine in a similar predicament. Windu dithers about chopping the Sith Lord as Anakin shows up. He then tells Windu it's not the Jedi way to just kill the old man. Why the change of heart? Because for Anakin, it's about what HE wants. Keeping Palpatine alive benefits him, while letting Dooku live doesn't.

Later in the same movie, Anakin/Vader tells Padme (only hours at most after swearing fealty to Lord Sidious) that he's already scheming to kill him and take over the galaxy.

Two movies later, after 20 years of being the Emperor's gopher, he's once again aiming at bumping him off -this time with the aid of his son. In the following movie, he's willing to throw aside everything to get Luke on his side. He lets Luke plus a commando team land on Endor, putting an entire military installation at risk. He's so hell bent on recruiting Luke that he instructs the troops on Endor to take the rebels alive so he can use them to influence him (think about how the battle would have turned out if the stormtroopers had simply gunned them down). Finally he kills the emperor -not because he's suddenly sympathetic to the Rebellion, but for the sake of his own son.

At every turn, from the time he kills Dooku in cold blood until he kills Palpatine, Vader exemplifies Neutral Evil. He doesn't do evil things for the sake of doing them, or on a whim (CE), nor does he adhere to selfless obedience to the rules while doing evil deeds (LE).

Quote from: Elfdart;842533He's all for law, order, hierarchy, putting the group before the individual...

...until it becomes inconvenient for him. The Jedi Code is fine and dandy as a way to get out of being a slave, but when it gets between him and getting into Padme's pants, he tosses it aside like yesterday's garbage.

The second fight with Dooku is pretty telling when juxtaposed with the scene in Palpatine's office. He hesitates to kill Dooku after chopping off his hands, knowing it's not what a Jedi is supposed to do. But this is his one chance to get some payback, so off with Christopher Lee's head.

Later, Mace Windu has Palpatine in a similar predicament. Windu dithers about chopping the Sith Lord as Anakin shows up. He then tells Windu it's not the Jedi way to just kill the old man. Why the change of heart? Because for Anakin, it's about what HE wants. Keeping Palpatine alive benefits him, while letting Dooku live doesn't.

Later in the same movie, Anakin/Vader tells Padme (only hours at most after swearing fealty to Lord Sidious) that he's already scheming to kill him and take over the galaxy.

Two movies later, after 20 years of being the Emperor's gopher, he's once again aiming at bumping him off -this time with the aid of his son. In the following movie, he's willing to throw aside everything to get Luke on his side. He lets Luke plus a commando team land on Endor, putting an entire military installation at risk. He's so hell bent on recruiting Luke that he instructs the troops on Endor to take the rebels alive so he can use them to influence him (think about how the battle would have turned out if the stormtroopers had simply gunned them down). Finally he kills the emperor -not because he's suddenly sympathetic to the Rebellion, but for the sake of his own son.

At every turn, from the time he kills Dooku in cold blood until he kills Palpatine, Vader exemplifies Neutral Evil. He doesn't do evil things for the sake of doing them, or on a whim (CE), nor does he adhere to selfless obedience to the rules while doing evil deeds (LE).

You know, I always thought of Darth Vader as LE but you make some excellent points here.

Quote from: Patrick;842532With Game of Thrones, what about Ramsay Snow -Bolton?  I know he seems to lean towards chaos, but to me he just stinks of Pure Evil.  He hurts, murders, tortures, all for his own pleasure.

He and his dad are both pretty good examples.  They're both pure evil but don't seem to be either lawful or chaotic.
jg

I can totally agree with Ramsay being NE, but Roose is solidly LE. He won't hesitate to kill or turn his cloak if he feels the situation calls for it, nor will he feel any remorse for doing so, but he doesn't enjoy the suffering of others the way Ramsay does. To the contrary, he often laments the trouble Ramsay's behavior causes him and actually rebukes him for it at one point:

Roose: People fear you.
Ramsay: Good.
Roose: You are mistaken. It is not good. No tales were ever told of me. Do you think I would be sitting here if it were otherwise? Your amusements are your own, I will not chide you on that count, but you must be more discreet. A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule. Make it yours.
(A Dance with Dragons ch. 32)

Quote from: woodsmoke;842695I can totally agree with Ramsay being NE, but Roose is solidly LE. He won't hesitate to kill or turn his cloak if he feels the situation calls for it, nor will he feel any remorse for doing so, but he doesn't enjoy the suffering of others the way Ramsay does. To the contrary, he often laments the trouble Ramsay's behavior causes him and actually rebukes him for it at one point:

Roose: People fear you.
Ramsay: Good.
Roose: You are mistaken. It is not good. No tales were ever told of me. Do you think I would be sitting here if it were otherwise? Your amusements are your own, I will not chide you on that count, but you must be more discreet. A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule. Make it yours.
(A Dance with Dragons ch. 32)

This exchange show he is pragmatic, not necessarily lawful. A stronger case for lawfull evilness could be made for Tywin Lannister, Ruthless but dedicated to something greater than himself (namely the family).

Quote from: Korgul;842708This exchange show he is pragmatic, not necessarily lawful. A stronger case for lawfull evilness could be made for Tywin Lannister, Ruthless but dedicated to something greater than himself (namely the family).

Yeah, I'd put Roose as NE and his son as CE. So many of Ramsey's actions are random to the point where he's clearly a lunatic. He does evil things because well, why the fuck not?

Quote from: James Gillen;842689He and his dad are both pretty good examples.  They're both pure evil but don't seem to be either lawful or chaotic.
jg

I think you're mostly right.  Some of the other people on the thread have argued that because Bolton sr. is not-insane that makes him lawful evil, but that would just mean that NE is the "Crazy Evil" alignment.  I don't buy that.  I think they are probably both NE, just one is NE-batshit while the other is NE-sane.

Quote from: RPGPundit;840659So, like the other two threads: Neutral Evil might in some ways be the hardest to peg down exemplars of.   What character embodies this, rather than falling into the 'chaotic' or 'lawful' forms?

Gordon Gecko from the movie Wall Street. Greed is Good is Neutral Evil in a nutshell, IMO anyway.

Quote from: RPGPundit;843083I think you're mostly right.  Some of the other people on the thread have argued that because Bolton sr. is not-insane that makes him lawful evil, but that would just mean that NE is the "Crazy Evil" alignment.  I don't buy that.  I think they are probably both NE, just one is NE-batshit while the other is NE-sane.

I think Elfdart makes a solid point about Ramsay being chaotic simply because he's such a mercurial character; he'll do shit that doesn't make any sense or even sets him back a few steps simply because it seemed like fun at the moment. Of course chaotic doesn't necessarily mean crazy, but in Ramsay's case I think both fit. I'll agree Roose is probably more NE than LE, though. Tywin is a better fit for the latter, as mentioned in the other thread.

Quote from: RPGPundit;843083I think you're mostly right.  Some of the other people on the thread have argued that because Bolton sr. is not-insane that makes him lawful evil, but that would just mean that NE is the "Crazy Evil" alignment.  I don't buy that.  I think they are probably both NE, just one is NE-batshit while the other is NE-sane.

Well, unlike (say) Joffrey, Ramsay is competent.

JG