Quote from: Orphan81;839934Gul Dukat from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Ooh, nice choice, though I'd actually say the series does a nice job of detailing his fall from LE at the start of the series (the face of the former military Occupation), to CE by the end (when he wanted to release the Pah-wraiths, and destroy everything).

Quote from: RPGPundit;840061It seems to me that Stannis Baratheon went from LN to LE in the last couple of episodes of the latest season of Game of Thrones.  It was his undoing.

Spoiler

Some gingers just want to see the world burn ... the children.

Quote from: Novastar;840040I'm not sure I'd call Vader "Lawful" Evil...
He did offer to usurp the Emperor to his son.
He Force Choked just about any Imperial Officer that got uppity with him; that's a hell of a court martial!
Vader's the #2 man in an Galactic Empire, but his private motivations still mostly revolve around his own selfishness.

My assumption in those choking scenes was he had the authority to do those things.

Quote from: Novastar;840160Ooh, nice choice, though I'd actually say the series does a nice job of detailing his fall from LE at the start of the series (the face of the former military Occupation), to CE by the end (when he wanted to release the Pah-wraiths, and destroy everything).

True enough, he was full on Chaotic Evil Cultist trying to bring about the destruction of the universe there...

But until then! Gul Dukat was a great example of Lawful Evil... particularly when you hear his Justifications for his actions, or tries to argue how the occupation benefitted the Bajorans in the long run.

Quote from: RPGPundit;840061It seems to me that Stannis Baratheon went from LN to LE in the last couple of episodes of the latest season of Game of Thrones.  It was his undoing.

Sentence your own child to die in a fire?  Well, what have you got to lose?

JG

Having Deadwood on the brain, I'd nominate Al Swearengen.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;840245My assumption in those choking scenes was he had the authority to do those things.

And how are you going to stop him, being a normal person, when he can choke you from miles away (goodbye Admiral Ozzel!), or pull out that laser sword?

Then again...

Quote from: James Gillen;840279Sentence your own child to die in a fire?  Well, what have you got to lose?

JG

Actually, that's interesting. how would you guys describe the bible Abraham's alignment? He was going to kill his own son because God told him.



Unrelated:

A funny quote from Jose Saramago, btw: "Según la Biblia, dios ordenó a Abraham que sacrificase a su propio hijo. Lo lógico, lo natural o lo simplemente humano sería que Abraham hubiese mandado al señor a la mierda."

Translated: "According to the Bible, God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his own son. The logical, natural or simply human response would be for Abraham to tell God to go fuck himself."

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;840969Translated: "According to the Bible, God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his own son. The logical, natural or simply human response would be for Abraham to tell God to go fuck himself."

I'd argue that Abraham's reaction was actually the natural and logical one given how people have acted on their religious beliefs through history.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;840969Actually, that's interesting. how would you guys describe the bible Abraham's alignment? He was going to kill his own son because God told him.

Lawful stupid.

Quote from: Bren;840996Lawful stupid.

AKA Lawful Neutral.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;841003AKA Lawful Neutral.

I've never heard Lawful Neutral described as Lawful Stupid.

Quote from: Bren;841043I've never heard Lawful Neutral described as Lawful Stupid.

Lawful Neutral typically follow rules to their logical end, rarely questioning the point of them, simply because the rules exist to be followed, no matter what the outcome may be.  Which can end up with some really stupid results.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;841063Lawful Neutral typically follow rules to their logical end, rarely questioning the point of them, simply because the rules exist to be followed, no matter what the outcome may be.  Which can end up with some really stupid results.

That would be stupid, but no more stupid that Lawful Good following the laws while rarely questioning the point of them because they were created by a 'good' deity, ruler, or society. Same for Lawful Evil. What you describe for Lawful Neutral is a simplistic and unfair characterization. Lawful Stupid is the stereotypical alignment description for Lawful Good Paladins.  

As for Lawful Neutral, I can easily imagine a number of philosophical positions that support a strict lawful or deontological position that a lawful neutral person might follow. In addition, conflict between rules or duties is a common occurrence in reality and in fiction. A Lawful Neutral would be very concerned with that situation and would, in fact, need to question and examine duties to discern how to resolve the conflict. Such conflicts are the stuff of many samurai tales among other cultures.

If your point is that you think Abraham was Lawful Neutral, it would be more productive if you just said that rather than going down a tangent about what you think the stereotypical AKA's is for Lawful Neutral.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;840245My assumption in those choking scenes was he had the authority to do those things.

If we accept that Lawful characters are deontological and Evil characters are consequentialist, then Vader is likely Chaotic Evil. He:
- Knowingly allowed Grand Moff Tarkin to lie to Princess Leia about the terms under which her planet would be spared if she revealed the location of the rebel base.
- Ex poste altered a deal with Lando Calrissian. "I've altered the deal. Pray I don't alter it further."
- Lied to his own master about the context of his dealings with Luke Skywalker.
- Betrayed his own master after swearing that Luke Skywalker "would join us or die."
- Executed several subordinates for failures on a capricious basis. E.g. Needa clearly was not aware that there was a clear rule "failure leads to death". He was rather worried that Vader might whim his death.

The only argument for Vader being Lawful is that he claims he wants "to bring order to the galaxy". But a Chaotic character can believe in rules...for other people.