Quote from: Bren;838894He's half Vulcan, not perfect. He mixed up the saying.

Yeah, I get it, the Vulcan part if it really gets in the way:D!

Have to ask a silly question?: what would the Terminator's alignment be? Would it not apply, or would its directives determine it? The closest analogue I've seen is the golem, and in 3.5 they're always nwutral.

Fun thought: Robocop has directives that sometimes conflict with his will. He was finally able to defy them at the end by killing the asshole exec. Is alignment the tool that covers a situation like that?

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;839181Have to ask a silly question?: what would the Terminator's alignment be? Would it not apply, or would its directives determine it? The closest analogue I've seen is the golem, and in 3.5 they're always nwutral.

Given my understanding, or maybe opinion of Alignment I'd put the Terminator as Lawful Neutral.  It has a prime directive, and it follows it to the letter, no matter the cost or morality of the situation.

As always, thought, Your Mileage May Vary.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;839181Fun thought: Robocop has directives that sometimes conflict with his will. He was finally able to defy them at the end by killing the asshole exec. Is alignment the tool that covers a situation like that?

Why wouldn't it?  It really depends on how rigid or flexible you want it to be.  And each player/DM gets his/her interpretation.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;839181Fun thought: Robocop has directives that sometimes conflict with his will. He was finally able to defy them at the end by killing the asshole exec. Is alignment the tool that covers a situation like that?

By definition programming overrode Murphy's personality, i.e. "alignment."

"Dick, you're fired!"
"?"
"Thank you."
[BRRRRRRRRRRRRRAPP!!!]

Best dialogue ever!

JG

"Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander."  

Shortening the phrase isn't messing it up.  Someone (Saavik I think) was talking about the handicap of fighting in the Nebula, and Spock was pointing to that handicap as the "sauce for the goose".  The rest is implied.

Lawfulness is pretty confusing.

Normally you have certain alignment acts that are objectively considered Lawful. But then you also have the belief that Lawful means following a code; a code that might just be the same as being Chaotic. And if you look at most iterations of Lawfulness, it is basically just a code of honor.

So how does a code work with being Lawful? Couldn't your code just basically be "I do what gets me what I want" or some sort of copout like that?

It seems like making the alignment be Honorable / Dishonorable would be a better fit instead. It gets the idea across without getting entangled into legalities and whatnot.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;839697It seems like making the alignment be Honorable / Dishonorable would be a better fit instead. It gets the idea across without getting entangled into legalities and whatnot.

There is a reason why more than a few players like Palladium's alignments better. Or revert back to the more ambiguous Law/Neutral/Chaos. Or do not use them much at all, if ever.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;839697Lawfulness is pretty confusing.

Normally you have certain alignment acts that are objectively considered Lawful. But then you also have the belief that Lawful means following a code; a code that might just be the same as being Chaotic. And if you look at most iterations of Lawfulness, it is basically just a code of honor.

So how does a code work with being Lawful? Couldn't your code just basically be "I do what gets me what I want" or some sort of copout like that?

It seems like making the alignment be Honorable / Dishonorable would be a better fit instead. It gets the idea across without getting entangled into legalities and whatnot.

I don't think its that hard.
LG will follow the "law" if the law is beneficial to the common folk. They will break the law and follow their own code if the law harms people or leads to predation. They want structure because they think it benefits the many.
LN will follow the law to its letter
LE will follow law when it suits themselves and will attempt to manipulate the law to achieve their own ends. They will follow what they consider to be their own code if the law is an "ass". They want structure and obedience because it benefits themselves.

Now is a LE guy Honorable?

Lets take a real life situation.

A LG person sees the benefit in paying taxes into a fund to share those taxes with the wider population. They see that providing healthcare and education to the poorest will lift the whole of Society up. Taxes for defense are good but not to wage war against others.

The LN will pay tax as requested. If their accountant shows them a legal way to avoid paying as much they will take that opportunity. They will not cheat their taxes or falisfy their claims but they don't really care about what the money is spent on provided it's all accounted for. They probably like taxes spent on the Military as that enables their lawful state to exapand its boarders and bring law to other areas

The LE person hates paying tax. They see the need for tax but don't know why they should pay so much of it. They will argue for a flat fee that everyone pays, unless they earn little when they will expect the richest in society to pay it and they will object to tax being used to help those who have failed to take the initiative to help themselves. They believe society would be stronger and fitter if those lazy people on welfare were allowed to die due to natural wastage or put to use as workers for the state. They want to see their tax spent on the military, expanding borders and gaining resources to make the lot of the citizens of the state (aka themselves) better, or on critical services. Anything they don't use, schools if they are childless, hospitals if they aren't sick, is seen as superfluous. They do like a robust prison system however and will spend a lot of money on those (far more than on welfare) to ensure people breaking the law are severely punished.

Quote from: jibbajibba;839819A LG person sees the benefit in paying taxes into a fund to share those taxes with the wider population. They see that providing healthcare and education to the poorest will lift the whole of Society up. Taxes for defense are good but not to wage war against others.

The LN will pay tax as requested. If their accountant shows them a legal way to avoid paying as much they will take that opportunity. They will not cheat their taxes or falisfy their claims but they don't really care about what the money is spent on provided it's all accounted for. They probably like taxes spent on the Military as that enables their lawful state to exapand its boarders and bring law to other areas

The LE person hates paying tax. They see the need for tax but don't know why they should pay so much of it. They will argue for a flat fee that everyone pays, unless they earn little when they will expect the richest in society to pay it and they will object to tax being used to help those who have failed to take the initiative to help themselves. They believe society would be stronger and fitter if those lazy people on welfare were allowed to die due to natural wastage or put to use as workers for the state. They want to see their tax spent on the military, expanding borders and gaining resources to make the lot of the citizens of the state (aka themselves) better, or on critical services. Anything they don't use, schools if they are childless, hospitals if they aren't sick, is seen as superfluous. They do like a robust prison system however and will spend a lot of money on those (far more than on welfare) to ensure people breaking the law are severely punished.

Oh, this is gonna be interesting.
:popcorn:

Gul Dukat from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

Doctor Doom from Marvel Comics

Lex Luthor from DC comics

Magneto in some of his incarnations

Count Strahd von Zarovich from Ravenloft

Dracula in most of his interpretations outside of the novel (In the novel he's more Neutral Evil since he's just selfishly pursuing Mina Harker)

David Lo Pan from Big Trouble in Little China

Quote from: CRKrueger;839822Oh, this is gonna be interesting.
:popcorn:

I think he's trying to make a different point here, but I'm not sure what it is....

JG

Just today I read an article in Rolling Stone magazine about the fracking industry in Utah. A whole valley is being poisoned, babies are dieing, people are getting sick just living there. Yet the oil/gas industry is denying everything, the politicians are doing nothing, a good woman is being attacked for sounding the alarm and her reputation smeared by a hospital. That's all Lawful Evil.

Then there is the Frank Underwood character from House of Cards (Francis Urquart to you Brits.) He's pretty much LE.

Quote from: Doughdee222;839969Just today I read an article in Rolling Stone magazine about the fracking industry in Utah. A whole valley is being poisoned, babies are dieing, people are getting sick just living there. Yet the oil/gas industry is denying everything, the politicians are doing nothing, a good woman is being attacked for sounding the alarm and her reputation smeared by a hospital. That's all Lawful Evil.

From RollingStone? I'd take it with a grain of salt. Most of the Anti-Fracking stuff out there is blatantly false and made up by the environmental lobby. Hell, even Bill Nye supports Fracking, Bill Fucking Nye (He does think there should be some more regulations with it, but knows it doesn't do half the stuff it's anatgonists proclaim it does)

I really suggest watching the documentary "Fracknation". It really clears up a lot of misconceptions about the Fracking Industry and was made completely independently.

I use to think Fracking was horrible too (The name alone is scary) until I watched the documentary which explained the science behind it...and the fucking blatant lies coming from things like Gasland.

I'm not sure I'd call Vader "Lawful" Evil...
He did offer to usurp the Emperor to his son.
He Force Choked just about any Imperial Officer that got uppity with him; that's a hell of a court martial!
Vader's the #2 man in an Galactic Empire, but his private motivations still mostly revolve around his own selfishness.

In terms of Lawful Evil, I'd nominate The Operative from Serenity (Firefly movie).
He does terrible things, for a better tomorrow, even if it's one he cannot be allowed into ("I'm a monster.")

It seems to me that Stannis Baratheon went from LN to LE in the last couple of episodes of the latest season of Game of Thrones.  It was his undoing.