SPECIAL NOTICE
Malicious code was found on the site, which has been removed, but would have been able to access files and the database, revealing email addresses, posts, and encoded passwords (which would need to be decoded). However, there is no direct evidence that any such activity occurred. REGARDLESS, BE SURE TO CHANGE YOUR PASSWORDS. And as is good practice, remember to never use the same password on more than one site. While performing housekeeping, we also decided to upgrade the forums.
This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Quick LOTR questions

Started by Aglondir, December 31, 2020, 09:14:26 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Aglondir

Is there any reference in Tolkien's works as to:

1. Elves having pointy ears?
2. Elves having darkvision?
3. Dwarves having darkvision?
4. Any race having infravision?

I think the answer to of those questions is No, but it's been some time since I read the books. 

Mistwell

Answering to a question on Hobbit ears, Tolkien wrote that these were "only slightly pointed and 'elvish'.

In the Etymologies is stated that "the Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than Human."




Stephen Tannhauser

Elves have keener senses than Men, and many of them are able to see into the spirit world as well, so I suspect between the two they would appear able to see in darkness. Dwarves aren't attributed with this same ability, but logic suggests a race which preferred to live underground would be able to adjust to low light conditions faster and more effectively. No race in the Tolkien legendarium, however, is ever described as being able to see heat or infrared specifically that I know of.
Better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt. -- Mark Twain

STR 8 DEX 10 CON 10 INT 11 WIS 6 CHA 3

Aglondir

Quote from: Mistwell on December 31, 2020, 09:32:51 PM
Answering to a question on Hobbit ears, Tolkien wrote that these were "only slightly pointed and 'elvish'.

In the Etymologies is stated that "the Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than Human."

Thanks! That solves question 1.

Aglondir

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on December 31, 2020, 10:39:23 PM
Elves have keener senses than Men, and many of them are able to see into the spirit world as well, so I suspect between the two they would appear able to see in darkness.
I thought I read somewhere where they could see under a starlit sky, but I might be confused.

QuoteDwarves aren't attributed with this same ability, but logic suggests a race which preferred to live underground would be able to adjust to low light conditions faster and more effectively.
That makes sense. But I was wondering if there was any explicit mention. How about in the descriptions of Moria-- any torches or lanterns lying around? Torch sconces, maybe? I don't recall any.

QuoteNo race in the Tolkien legendarium, however, is ever described as being able to see heat or infrared specifically that I know of.
That solves 3 and 4. Where did Gygax get infravision from? The 1970's Westworld movie (LOL)?

danskmacabre

#5
There's never been any mention specifically of Dark vision or Infravision for Elves or Dwarves that I'm aware of and I've read many of the Tolkien books.

Elves certainly have superior vision than other races though (Keener vision or some such comment, amongst other comments). That is mentioned several times in LOTR.
Also Bilbo was noted as having better vision than the Dwarves in "The Hobbit". but dunno if that is specific to Bilbo.

Would think Dwarves being more accustomed to being underground and used to the environment is more an explanation than Dark vision.




Pat

Gygax read a lot of science fiction, the thermal vision may have come from trying to overrationalize something that's supposed to be magic.

Eric Diaz

D&D elves and dwarves are more Poul Anderson than Tolkien IIRC. But yeah, I think the "thermal vision" stuff is a D&Dism.

There are some specific "game" elements too, such as NPCs losing infravision if they join the PCs.
Chaos Factory Books  - Dark fantasy RPGs and more!

Methods & Madness - my  D&D 5e / Old School / Game design blog.

finarvyn

Quote from: Pat on January 02, 2021, 08:51:39 AM
Gygax read a lot of science fiction, the thermal vision may have come from trying to overrationalize something that's supposed to be magic.
In OD&D monsters could see in the dark but characters could not. If a monster chose to work with the party, he lost his dark-vision. This wasn't designed to be a "realism" thing at all, but was designed to put characters at a disadvantage.
Marv / Finarvyn
Kingmaker of Amber
I'm pretty much responsible for the S&W WB rules.
Amber Diceless Player since 1993
OD&D Player since 1975

Brad

Quote from: Aglondir on December 31, 2020, 09:14:26 PM
Is there any reference in Tolkien's works as to:

1. Elves having pointy ears?
2. Elves having darkvision?
3. Dwarves having darkvision?
4. Any race having infravision?

I think the answer to of those questions is No, but it's been some time since I read the books.

1) Not really
2) Nope, although they can see in starlight as if it was daytime (they COULD have heat vision, but this is never spelled out anywhere)
3) Similar to elves, although it is implied they can see normally in absolute darkness to some degree
4) Implied for orcs, but never explicitly

So basically, the answer is pretty much no across the board if you're just reading the Silmarillion, LotR, or the Hobbit. Unfinished Tales has some stuff that makes me believe elves had some sort of darkvision, but it's hard to tell.
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.

Ghostmaker

While not explicitly stated, there's a LOT of implication that elves had some form of perception beyond the usual visual spectrum. There's a passing remark during the meeting between Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli versus Eomer and his riders, when Aragorn faced Eomer down, and Legolas perceived the phantom of a crown flickering on Aragorn's head. Later in the series, as Aragorn and his forces travel the paths of the dead, Legolas comments on how he could perceive the shades of the dead but was unfazed by them.

My guess is that this fairly vague description was distilled down into infravision and later low-light/darkvision, for RPGs.

Brad

Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 26, 2021, 12:10:57 PM
While not explicitly stated, there's a LOT of implication that elves had some form of perception beyond the usual visual spectrum. There's a passing remark during the meeting between Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli versus Eomer and his riders, when Aragorn faced Eomer down, and Legolas perceived the phantom of a crown flickering on Aragorn's head. Later in the series, as Aragorn and his forces travel the paths of the dead, Legolas comments on how he could perceive the shades of the dead but was unfazed by them.

My guess is that this fairly vague description was distilled down into infravision and later low-light/darkvision, for RPGs.

Dunedain could also use "farseeing" which I suppose is some sort of clairvoyance. Items made by elves were "magical", same with dwarvish made devices. Elves were basically in the physical realm and some sort of ethereal state at the same time, hence their ability to see ringwraiths and wights in their true form. Etc., etc. I think it's safe to assume there was a subtle otherworldly quality to everything except plain old low Men, so I would have no real issue saying Gygax distilled down the elvish ability to see supernatural qualities as infravision.
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.

Wicked Woodpecker of West

As elves unlike men are soulbound to Arda they can percieve both material and spiritual side of it by their natural perception.
So yes they see all things invisible for mortals generally.

KingCheops

Both the Elves and the Dwarfs were created prior to Morgoth's shenanigans with the Trees.  So they lived in a world with no light but the stars for an untold amount of time.  The Noldor are so fancy because they made it to Valinor and lived in the light of the Trees.  The rest of the Moriquendi stayed behind.

Given this I'd say it's safe to assume they at least had better low light vision than the Edain.

Philotomy Jurament

Quote from: KingCheops on January 27, 2021, 11:00:32 AM
Both the Elves and the Dwarfs were created prior to Morgoth's shenanigans with the Trees.  So they lived in a world with no light but the stars for an untold amount of time.  The Noldor are so fancy because they made it to Valinor and lived in the light of the Trees.  The rest of the Moriquendi stayed behind.

This is a nitpicky tangent, but I wouldn't characterize it as Noldor vs. "the rest of the elves." The elves that completed the journey to Aman included Vanyar, Noldor, and some (but not all) Teleri. Any of those would be considered Caliquendi rather than Moriquendi. The Moriquendi would definitely include the Avari, and also those Teleri groups that didn't continue on to Aman (e.g., Nandor, et cetera).
The problem is not that power corrupts, but that the corruptible are irresistibly drawn to the pursuit of power. Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.