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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Bren on June 14, 2015, 02:55:18 PM

Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 14, 2015, 02:55:18 PM
This is spun off from here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=836342&postcount=9).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;836342
What I prefer to do is answer your questions; I work better that way, I've found. This is what I'm not getting from gamers, or from the various forums I've been a part of.
Fair enough. Put up or shut up for Bren it is then. :) Let me start with....

1) So "chirine ba kal" where is that name from? Sounds Tsolyani to my untutored ears. Is it the name of a PC or a nickname for you, the player? Does it have some particular meaning, clan, etc? Are any of the words supposed to be capitalized?

2) You mentioned that you see yourself not as a player of RPGs or miniatures but as a model builder. I've seen some pictures you've posted of an Tsolyanu Temple. Is that something you've built? What other things have you modeled that have been based on or used in someone's RPG or miniatures?

3) What is it about modeling that grabbed and has held your interest over the years?

Parenthetically, I like models, I've done a bit of modelling and a bit more of customizing miniatures. But I find I like the outcome more than the process which is probably why I would never describe myself as a modeler. As a matter of coincidence or synchronicity one of the more customized miniatures I created was adapting an EPT miniature to a character I ran in the Glorantha setting - Tamlorn Two-sword. This was way back in the early 1980s before the glut of D&D-inspired two-sworded miniatures had hit the market and the EPT figure had two baroque bladed weapons that I cut down to look like a couple of Western European style swords. The beaked helmet and speckled pants (painted to look like leopard skin) gave the miniature a nicely outre look that worked from my conception of some parts of Glorantha.

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As an example of this, we had one very memorable WWII game where I was playing the Allies on a table in one room, using "Tractics", and at the same time I was fighting an air battle in another room to keep the Luftwaffe from shooting up my tanks using an Avalon-Hill board game. Same thing out at Phil's: we moved from individual adventures using EPT across mass battles using my "Qadardalikoi" miniatures rules to grand strategy using Phil's PRESTAGS sets on his Tekumel maps.

We played the world-settings, historical or fictional, and we used any and every set of rules that we had to make the games happen.
That sounds fun. My current players though don't have a war gaming bent and aren't too interested in all the details of politics and military combat so I think it would be difficult to add in anything like a board game or miniatures battle into our game. I had to work hard to keep the siege I put their characters in the midst of both interesting for the characters without being too rule heavy or protracted for the players. I did have fun using the actual siege of Bergen op Zoom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Bergen-op-Zoom_(1622)) as a setting. This actual map of the city (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Map_of_Bergen_op_Zoom_%28Blaeu%29.jpg) made a dandy game board

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...mass battles using my "Qadardalikoi" miniatures rules to grand strategy using Phil's PRESTAGS sets on his Tekumel maps
I am not familiar with Qadardalikoi or PRESTAGS. What can you tell me about them?

5. You mentioned you don't play RPGs, though from your descriptions of some of the stuff you did, I'd say you did play RPGs. Did you act as the referee or GM for other players for any kind of RPGs,  Braunsteins, or games that someone might call roleplaying?

Thanks in advance for any answers you care to share. :)

And other folks feel free to chime in with your questions...

      ...Like you need my permission. ;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Phillip on June 14, 2015, 04:39:50 PM
I'm not Chirine, but I can tell you that SPI's "pre-seventeenth-century tactical game system" was a common rules set used for a series of boardgames such as Chariot, Spartan and Viking -- much as other rules sets spawned multiple games in other periods.

I'm not familiar with Qardadalikoi except as one of the first products advertised by Empire Games (or whatever Barker's post-TSR publisher was called). I stuck with Dave Sutherland's Legions of the Petal Throne.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Phillip on June 14, 2015, 05:03:03 PM
Quote from: Chirine in post linked above

And I think that's what may be the crux of the matter; back in the day, we played anything and everything - the division of the hobby into very separate and distinct genres didn't exist for us. We moved across a spectrum of play that included all of what are now the various genres - we played what we needed to play in order to make things happen.

Before my gang got turned on to D&D, we made up our own "galactic empires" game with a game-master, pressing into service all sorts of stuff at hand (including Outdoor Survival, which got a mention in D&D too). I'd say there was an element of role-playing.

I remember GDW's En Garde getting billed as an rpg, but nowadays it might not fit a definition that has finer time increments and other details as assumptions. It's notably stereotyped in presentation, but folks added aspects they liked just as people did with D&D.

After all, En Garde started as just a duel game, and D&D spun off from Arneson's dungeon-game elaboration on the Chainmail Fantasy Supplement.

I don't know how much of a generational shift there has really been, though. We inventive types may have been in a minority, even though it was naturally that sort who appeared in the pages of hobby-game magazines.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 15, 2015, 09:07:18 AM
Right, then; let's have a go at this... :)

1) "Chirine ba Kal" was the name of the PC I rolled up at Phil's about the spring of 1976. This was back before the original group split, as discussed in Gary Fine's book, "Shared Fantasy". I'm from the western part of Tsolyanu, the Chakas. Phil never used my real name, in or out of game; he only used it once, about three months before he passed away, to thank me and my family help take care of him in his last illness; it was the first time in some thirty-five years.

2) That's Phil's model of the Temple of Vimuhla in the city of Katalal. I used to take care of the model for him, and took it to conventions to show to people. It's huge, about 40" x 40" x 30". There are a lot of photos of my models and games on my Photobucket page - the list is just too long to post here, I'm afraid!

The tradition  - the 'Custom of the House', if you will - is that we built stuff for games as needed. New players would roll up their character, and Phil would give me one week to make their miniature. Over the decades we've been playing, that adds up to a lot of PC's leaden alter egos, and we also liked to model our stuff as well - hence all the models in the game room.

We also built our costumes / clothes, as well. My armor weighs 38 pounds all up, and has over 15,000 1/4" rings in the mail hauberk. (Photos on my blog.)

3) I don't really know. I also do model railways - the UK's Great Western in OO scale - as well as plastic kits and scratchbuilds. I think the biggest project was the 20' by 20' game playing area for my Star Wars Braunstein; the biggest model was the 4' Imperial Star Destroyer I built for the same campaign. I just like to build stuff, and I'm told that I'm both fast and good at it. I now build things for my gamers on a two week cycle, between game sessions, and it seems to amuse them.

Sounds like you modified the YK-1, Yan Koryani General... :)

Loved to hear about your siege! Phil did a lot of battles that same way, as he didn't want to slow the game down with an on-table battle unless there was a really good reason for it.

4) I wrote "Qadardalikoi" (Tsolyani for "Great and Glorious War" after I bought the Tekumel miniatures line from Ral Partha; both "Missum" and "Legions" were out of print by then, so we needed a set of rules to help sell figures. I'm currently working on a second edition, to take advantage of all the wonderful new technologies in gaming that have come along - the rules are older then my daughters!

PRESTAGS was SPI's attempt to do a Middle Earth board game without a license; if you put all the counters in piles sorted by color, oddly enough you got all the armies of Middle Earth. If you put all the maps together the right way, you got a very good map of Middle Earth. The five games in the series / set were finally marketed as historical board games, and they were actually very good; i played them for decades, and had a lot of fun with them.

5) Yes, we did play what you'd be able to call RPGs, as well as what I think you'd call miniatures. However, we played as part of continuing 'campaigns', where we played people like Chirine or the hapless Hauptmann Von Braunschweiger of the Afrika Korps, who kept running into the British in his little Pz. II when the verdammnt Englishers were off their tea break and were in their brand new Yankee tanks. ("Donner and Blitznen!!!") We played using whatever tools we needed at that point in the campaign - RPGs, Braunsteins, miniatures, boardgames, poker, you name it.

I think that, over the years, I've run all sorts of games for people. I used to run two Tekumel campaigns in parallel with Phil's; my games were the 'waiting room' to get into Phil's, as well as a way to screen people for him. I used to run games at Coffman Union for the Conflict Simulation Association, and I also used to run a game convention. I still run games, on the second and fourth Saturdays of the month, in my own game room; The Missus lets me have half the basement for it, as you can see in the photos on my blog.

I ran a Star Wars campaign, for example, long before there were any rules for such a thing. I 'winged' it... :)

I love to build the models we use in the games, and the games are a way to astound and amuse my players. The looks on their faces when they come down the stairs and see what's on the table is what's worth it to me... :)

Does this help, or have I just confused things? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 15, 2015, 09:10:23 AM
Quote from: Phillip;836425
I'm not Chirine, but I can tell you that SPI's "pre-seventeenth-century tactical game system" was a common rules set used for a series of boardgames such as Chariot, Spartan and Viking -- much as other rules sets spawned multiple games in other periods.

I'm not familiar with Qardadalikoi except as one of the first products advertised by Empire Games (or whatever Barker's post-TSR publisher was called). I stuck with Dave Sutherland's Legions of the Petal Throne.


Agreed! PRESTAGS gave us hours of fun. I think I liked "Chariot" the best.

It went TSR - Imperium Publishing - Gamescience - Adventure Games - Tekumel Journal - Tekumel Games - Different Worlds - TOME - Guardians of Order - UniGames. Tekumel Journal was the publisher of my rules, after AGI didn't do it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Moracai on June 15, 2015, 10:11:03 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;836554
Does this help, or have I just confused things? :)
It does.

Me being born in 76, you gave me a lot to think about. The closest you are describing that I've attempted or even thought about would be Warhammer 40K going from orbital bombardments to individual fightin' guys in rules that are always bit sameish. Ballistic Skill for nuking that pesky city to Weapon Skill to stab that knife to your opponents gut.

Going from one platform to another must've been one of the off-game exciting things to discuss and come together in agreement thingies.

Sorry for bad english. At the moment I'm coming high with alcohol (vacation, yay) and dont care too much.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 15, 2015, 01:49:14 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;836554
1) "Chirine ba Kal" was the name of the PC I rolled up at Phil's about the spring of 1976.
Have you posted tales of Chirine ba Kal on your blog? A character that memorable (to you and to Prof. Barker) must have some good tales to be told.

Quote
2) That's Phil's model of the Temple of Vimuhla in the city of Katalal.
Yeah, that's the one I was thinking of. That was darn impressive. I'll check out your blog (which I see is at the bottom of your post).

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The tradition  - the 'Custom of the House', if you will - is that we built stuff for games as needed. New players would roll up their character, and Phil would give me one week to make their miniature.
I'd have loved that. I can see why there was a waiting list.

Back in 1974 we didn't use miniatures for D&D. Just scratch paper and the very detailed graph paper maps the players made as they went along. Well most of us had a player in our groups who made detailed maps. The exploration/mapping aspect was one of the parts of OD&D that appealed to me from both sides of the DM screen.

Starting in the late 70s, I've customized miniatures for most of our favored PCs, mine and my players. The only exceptions were the Star Trek campaign - where we instead had drawings of each PC and the important NPCs done by an artist friend of my co-GMs and Honor+Intrigue. Since my H+I game is all done over Skype it doesn't feel worthwhile to do minis. Also I have absolutely no Early Modern minis so I'd have to start from scratch and (for various reasons) I just haven't been motivated to paint any minis for years. I still have hundreds of Saxons and Vikings from my last buying binge for Runequest at the end of the last century.
Minis do add up.

[quoteWe also built our costumes / clothes, as well. My armor weighs 38 pounds all up, and has over 15,000 1/4" rings in the mail hauberk. (Photos on my blog.)[/quote]Sounds like SCA meets wargaming. :)

Quote
I think the biggest project was the 20' by 20' game playing area for my Star Wars Braunstein; the biggest model was the 4' Imperial Star Destroyer I built for the same campaign.
Now those sounds like a blast. Star Wars and Call of Cthulhu were the most recent games that I did minis for. I ended up with a hundred or so for CoC and several hundred for Star Wars. Of course I cheat and use green skinned Orcs for Gamorreans.

While I don't model locations, I did do a couple of large color floor plans on huge 1 inch square graph paper sheets. One for a Hutt palace that I used for the big climactic confrontation and rescue that was the climax of a mini campaign and the other for a huge place called Gazi's. Gazi's motto was "Something for everyone." It included multiple bars, lighted exotic dancer cages, Gilfi tanks of fighting fish with colored tags to identify the combatants for betting purposes, a fighting arena, holoscreens for broadcasting holonet sports broadcasts, a null G-dance floor, a casino, and an upstairs brothel. The first time the PCs went there I had it laid out with at least a hundred miniatures giving it the effect of the Mos Eisley cantina on steroids. Amazingly its one of the few bars in Star Wars that one of the PCs didn't get thrown out of, though he did have to leave in a hurry. We used Gazi's four or five times with three different groups of PCs. One time we had two separate PC groups in Gazi's at the same time. The first group's antics provided the background action for the second groups adventure.

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Sounds like you modified the YK-1, Yan Koryani General...
That sounds familiar.

EDIT: Well I deleted the long description I wrote and the various minis that weren't quite right after I finally turned up this picture.
(http://[url]http://i0.wp.com/tekumelcollecting.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/OldGuardAdv.jpeg[/url])My mini is in the upper right. You got it in one. I am impressed. :cool:

I modified the miniature for my Runequest PC, Tamlorn Two-Sword. He had a Sartarite father and an Esrolian mother. He got his looks from his mom, a temple dancer. I figured the Esrolians looked something like ancient Minoans or Egyptians.

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Loved to hear about your siege! Phil did a lot of battles that same way, as he didn't want to slow the game down with an on-table battle unless there was a really good reason for it.
I think I wrote up most of those adventures so I'll try and post something when I have more time.

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4) I wrote "Qadardalikoi" (Tsolyani for "Great and Glorious War" after I bought the Tekumel miniatures line from Ral Partha; both "Missum" and "Legions" were out of print by then, so we needed a set of rules to help sell figures. I'm currently working on a second edition, to take advantage of all the wonderful new technologies in gaming that have come along - the rules are older then my daughters!
Ral Partha made some nice minis. And I'm guessing your daughters are probably older than some gamers on this or other forums.

I missed SPI's PRESTAGS.

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5) Yes, we did play what you'd be able to call RPGs, as well as what I think you'd call miniatures. However, we played as part of continuing 'campaigns', where we played people like Chirine or the hapless Hauptmann Von Braunschweiger of the Afrika Korps, who kept running into the British in his little Pz. II when the verdammnt Englishers were off their tea break and were in their brand new Yankee tanks. ("Donner and Blitznen!!!") We played using whatever tools we needed at that point in the campaign - RPGs, Braunsteins, miniatures, boardgames, poker, you name it.
Although I've almost always run long campaigns, I think the difference for us in the old days was that our D&D games never included army level actions. Part of that was due to some of DMs (cough, cough, like me, cough cough) running campaigns where players didn't succeed in getting to a level where they had strongholds and where the PCs were wandering adventurers rather than people integrated in the hierarchy of their society.

Runequest included much more societal integration, but we only ever once got to a battle scale. A group of PCs banded together with some NPCs to kick the Lunar Empire out of the Citadel of Elkoi in Balazar and put a local adventurer and PC on the throne of Elkoi. Sadly, the gaming group split up when I went out to grad school and we never did more with those characters. Trying to resist the Lunar Empire's revenge would have been...interesting.

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I ran a Star Wars campaign, for example, long before there were any rules for such a thing. I 'winged' it... :)
:cool: I ran Star Wars before there were published rules. I didn't wing it though, I was a play tester for a rule set that my friend who bought the first D&D rules for our group was writing for Parker Brothers. But Parker scrapped the game and surrendered the license. Some time after that West End got the license and produced their D6 game.

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The looks on their faces when they come down the stairs and see what's on the table is what's worth it to me...
I can only imagine. It's too bad you can't rent out your models to astonish other groups.

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Does this help, or have I just confused things? :)
Yeah, that was cool. Nothing you wrote confuses things. It all makes sense. It's just a bit different than how the group we had way back in the day did things. But it was obvious to me that different DMs ran D&D differently. They each had their own takes on play and their game worlds. Most of us ran separate worlds, though two guys who were brothers ran different countries in the same world. One of them was a big WWII fan. He usually wanted to play Germany in the WWII board games. We teased him a bit because his fantasy kingdom had guards who were always asking the PCs for "their papers" which some of us thought was atypical for a medieval-style fantasy kingdom. We teasingly mimicked the guards using a German accent.

I recall the DM of the game I mostly played in, ran a variant game or two which included guns and wizards. I can't recall now whether that was wizards introduced to a Boot Hill game or gunslingers added into a D&D game. But he thought mashing the two together would be a fun diversion from the usually fantasy game. And it was.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 15, 2015, 08:42:29 PM
Quote from: Moracai;836560
It does.

Me being born in 76, you gave me a lot to think about. The closest you are describing that I've attempted or even thought about would be Warhammer 40K going from orbital bombardments to individual fightin' guys in rules that are always bit sameish. Ballistic Skill for nuking that pesky city to Weapon Skill to stab that knife to your opponents gut.

Going from one platform to another must've been one of the off-game exciting things to discuss and come together in agreement thingies.

Sorry for bad english. At the moment I'm coming high with alcohol (vacation, yay) and dont care too much.


And that's my goal - to give you a window into the past, where you can see how some of us old codgers did things and give you ideas for your own games... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 15, 2015, 09:08:49 PM
A short reply; more tomorrow after I get back home...

Two short excerpts from the book I'm writing, "To Serve The Petal Throne":

http://blackmoor.mystara.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8005 (http://blackmoor.mystara.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8005)

http://http://blackmoor.mystara.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=7964 (http://http://blackmoor.mystara.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=7964)

I have fifteen years of games to write about. I'm going to wind up with six books at 50,000 words in each book. :0

I have a lot of stories to tell.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 16, 2015, 09:31:19 PM
And I'm back... Let me see if I can address all of your comments...

1. See my previous post for some snippets from the book. we gamed with Phil in his world for some fifteen years, four+ hours a week, 52 weeks a year. He kept an attendance book, too. I took notes at every game session, from the beginning, and in the middle 1980s we started audio taping the game sessions. I have *a lot* of material to work with. The final form of the book is likely to be six volumes, with about 50,000 words about our adventures over the years in each. Artwork, too, I hope!

2. The temple model is really pretty cool; I have lots of photos of it.

3. The waiting list out at Phil's was also because we were kind of choosy about who we wanted to play with; some folks just didn't 'get' Tekumel, and didn't prosper. They didn't last long, and so we started screening people to see if they'd actually like the campaign. We were very much into long-term game campaigns, and 'short-timers' didn't have much of a good time as we generally didn't do things that gave them what they wanted.

4. Interesting! We used miniatures a lot, because both Phil and I loved making them, but we didn't use maps very much. I might make notes on a location, if it was interesting, but otherwise we usually didn't make them.

5. Most of us were in the SCA, and Phil had a huge collection of medieval arms and armor. I took care of the collection, and one of his suits of munition armor fit me like it had been made for me - back about 1580.

6. Loved your description!!! Very good!!! :)

7. Don't be impressed; I cast the things for years, so I have every portion of the little things memorized... :)

8. Actually, your descriptions of what you were doing sound a lot like what we did; I think you have 'our style' down pat.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 18, 2015, 06:48:20 PM
Chirine, can I ask you about something that was prompting lots of drama on another forum:)? At one point we even mentioned Gary Gygax, but the opinions about his opinion of the practice differed.

So, it was a discussion about illusionism. The way we were using it, it means "the GM changing stuff behind the scenes to achieve a desired result with the illusion that said result is due to PCs' choices".
As an example, the GM knows you have little HP left and no healing potions. There are two doors in front of you in the dungeon. If you pass the left door, you can kill or cheat a couple of drunk orks and find a Wyvern Slaying Sword. This room continues to another intersection where you meet a Wyvern.
If you pass the door to the right, you fight a skeleton, avoid a trap, but then meet the Wyvern without the sword.
The PC, however, decides to enter through the right door.
The GM decides to swap the rooms so you could have a chance against the Wyvern later, and describes the left room instead;).
(Or, conversely, you decide to enter the left room. He doesn't want you to have the sword, so the Wyvern would give you a harder fight, so he shifts it to be in the right room. The intent of the GM means nothing here - the practice of changing the "behind the scenes" info so the players' actions lead to a pre-determined result is what matters).

So, is that something you could see either Dave Arnesson, Gary Gygax, or MAR Barker using? Would any of them recommend it to other GMs as a best practice;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: TristramEvans on June 18, 2015, 09:12:04 PM
Your descriptions sound very similar to the sort of gaming I've "discovered/fallen into" in the last few years. I also have very little interest in a lot of new RPGs and find myself more and more distanced from the hobby as its represented online/in rpg forums. The focus on rules minutia holds little interest for me, as does the strict division of gaming styles. For years I GMed a very lose historical occult investigation style game, where I pretty much abandoned any rulebooks in favour of a very quick and intuitive framework of a system I stole from a game from the early 80s, and generally just made rulings on the fly as they fit the situation. I heavily experimented with different forms of play (one game took place on a submarine, and I ended up separating the players into different rooms with the lights off, only able to communicate via walkie-talkies), one game was nothing more than a dinner party where everyone remained "in-character" for the proceedings. But the breaking point for me was getting back into miniature wargames a few years back, wherein I rediscovered my love, not just of painting minis, but also building scenery and creating elaborate gameboards. As simple PvP wargames bored me quickly, I began coming up with more and more elaborate narrative scenarios, and elements of RPGs began bleeding in. I became fascinated with that gray area where wargames and rpgs meet, and the different manner games could be combined into an overall experience. I brought in elements from Diplomacy, constructed overarching campaign rules that dealt with things like resources and troop training/replenishment, and came across some great naval battle rules that led to several months of high seas adventures, switching between ship to ship combat and regular combat rules for boarding parties. As time goes on, the term "gaming" for me has started to become an all-encompassing creative thing that doesn't really match any singular modern definitions of rpgs/larps/wargames etc. I for one would love to hear more about how the old Tekumel games were run, particularly more specifics on what you looked for in players and what it meant to "get" Tekumel, or more specifically, the style of gaming you're describing. I find it hard these days to get new players who are on board with this sort of free-wheeling creative approach, especially those indoctrinated by the last 20 years of very specific ideas of what an RPG is and the "importance of rules".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 19, 2015, 08:47:16 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;837134
Chirine, can I ask you about something that was prompting lots of drama on another forum:)? At one point we even mentioned Gary Gygax, but the opinions about his opinion of the practice differed.

So, it was a discussion about illusionism. The way we were using it, it means "the GM changing stuff behind the scenes to achieve a desired result with the illusion that said result is due to PCs' choices". [example snipped]

So, is that something you could see either Dave Arnesson, Gary Gygax, or MAR Barker using? Would any of them recommend it to other GMs as a best practice;)?


Im my experience, no. The play style for referees / GMs with them was 'what you see is what you get', and 'the dice don't lie'. They set up the scenario, and we had to make of it what we could - they didn't manipulate things behind the scenes in the kind of situation that you describe. I think they all went for consistency - we normally went into the 'dungeon' / 'underworld' on multiple trips, and we'd have caught the changes between adventures.

Dave once said to me that the challenge for him was rolling with whatever the players could come up with. Phil was very, very consistent over the years, and we could go back to a location literally five real-time years later and find the same details present.

I don;t think any of them would recommend it as a way to run things - it gets too hard to keep track of, and too hard to keep consistent. I don't use it myself; I prefer other ways to increase the illusion of reality for my players.

Does that help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 19, 2015, 08:50:26 AM
Quote from: TristramEvans;837152
Your descriptions sound very similar to the sort of gaming I've "discovered/fallen into" in the last few years. I also have very little interest in a lot of new RPGs and find myself more and more distanced from the hobby as its represented online/in rpg forums. The focus on rules minutia holds little interest for me, as does the strict division of gaming styles. For years I GMed a very lose historical occult investigation style game, where I pretty much abandoned any rulebooks in favour of a very quick and intuitive framework of a system I stole from a game from the early 80s, and generally just made rulings on the fly as they fit the situation. I heavily experimented with different forms of play (one game took place on a submarine, and I ended up separating the players into different rooms with the lights off, only able to communicate via walkie-talkies), one game was nothing more than a dinner party where everyone remained "in-character" for the proceedings. But the breaking point for me was getting back into miniature wargames a few years back, wherein I rediscovered my love, not just of painting minis, but also building scenery and creating elaborate gameboards. As simple PvP wargames bored me quickly, I began coming up with more and more elaborate narrative scenarios, and elements of RPGs began bleeding in. I became fascinated with that gray area where wargames and rpgs meet, and the different manner games could be combined into an overall experience. I brought in elements from Diplomacy, constructed overarching campaign rules that dealt with things like resources and troop training/replenishment, and came across some great naval battle rules that led to several months of high seas adventures, switching between ship to ship combat and regular combat rules for boarding parties. As time goes on, the term "gaming" for me has started to become an all-encompassing creative thing that doesn't really match any singular modern definitions of rpgs/larps/wargames etc. I for one would love to hear more about how the old Tekumel games were run, particularly more specifics on what you looked for in players and what it meant to "get" Tekumel, or more specifically, the style of gaming you're describing. I find it hard these days to get new players who are on board with this sort of free-wheeling creative approach, especially those indoctrinated by the last 20 years of very specific ideas of what an RPG is and the "importance of rules".


Yes, what you said. This is a very good description of the kind of play style we had, and a very good set of examples of the kind of thing we did in our games 'back in the day'. Let me address your question about our Tekumel gaming in my follow-up post, if I may... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 19, 2015, 09:08:37 AM
Quote from: TristramEvans;837152
[snipped to extract text] I for one would love to hear more about how the old Tekumel games were run, particularly more specifics on what you looked for in players and what it meant to "get" Tekumel, or more specifically, the style of gaming you're describing. I find it hard these days to get new players who are on board with this sort of free-wheeling creative approach, especially those indoctrinated by the last 20 years of very specific ideas of what an RPG is and the "importance of rules".


What we looked for in both Phil's and my game groups were people who were interested in the world-setting, and not so much in the rules mechanics. Phil's original group, which kept going as the Monday night group after we split up, tended to be much more interested in the 'game aspects' and less in the 'cultural aspects' of Phil's world. This is very well documented in Fine's book, "Shared Fantasy"; we're 'the geek group'. We wanted to explore Tekumel, and have adventures along the way. I did the same thing in my two Tekumel campaigns, and 'screened' players for this attitude / viewpoint.

The other major factor was personal compatibility - we played out at Phil's for the better part of fifteen years, with about 75% of the group being always the same people. Phil didn't hand out XP, in our group; we went up in rank and station by hard work, a little bribery of the right NPCs, and sheer ability to survive whatever he could throw at us. We worked together, and always made sure that while we might have different goals, there was always something in if for everyone.

As an example of 'getting' Tekumel, at one point the Monday players tried to have one of our players arrested and imprisioned. (Kathy Marshall, Princess Vrisa Vishetru of Saa Alliqui). The messenger gave me the verbal orders, and I sent him back to get written orders as per proper Imperial protocols. Phil gave me some grief about this, and I gave him precedents from one of his own books. He went off and had a two-week pout, as I was entirely within my rights as an Imperial official, and came back with a beautifully done Tsolyani document - the proper arrest warrant. I read it, approved it, and then chewed him out, telling him that if he'd gotten his paperwork right the first time we'd have saved two weeks of annoyance. I then handed the warrant to Kathy, who gave me a 'come-hither look' and asked "Your tent or mine?" Phil nearly swallowed his cigar, in his astonishment.

He stared at me for a few minutes, and then gave me one of the very best accolades I have ever gotten: "Chirine, you've gone native."

What I'd done was what I think people call 'immersion', nowadays; I was being my Tsolyani alter ego, and playing the role to the hilt. Kathy did the same as Vrisa, and so did the rest of the group. We took on our roles, every Thursday, and we played them as if they were real people. We learned the cultures of Tekumel, and we moved within them like fish in the sea...

I've seen people 'get' Gloriantha, as well as other world-settings as well; it's possible to do... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 19, 2015, 11:59:05 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;837216

As an example of 'getting' Tekumel, at one point the Monday players tried to have one of our players arrested and imprisioned. (Kathy Marshall, Princess Vrisa Vishetru of Saa Alliqui). The messenger gave me the verbal orders, and I sent him back to get written orders as per proper Imperial protocols. Phil gave me some grief about this, and I gave him precedents from one of his own books. He went off and had a two-week pout, as I was entirely within my rights as an Imperial official, and came back with a beautifully done Tsolyani document - the proper arrest warrant. I read it, approved it, and then chewed him out, telling him that if he'd gotten his paperwork right the first time we'd have saved two weeks of annoyance. I then handed the warrant to Kathy, who gave me a 'come-hither look' and asked "Your tent or mine?" Phil nearly swallowed his cigar, in his astonishment.

He stared at me for a few minutes, and then gave me one of the very best accolades I have ever gotten: "Chirine, you've gone native."

Let me check for confirmation. By giving her the hard-to-obtain official order instead of acting on it, did it allow her to destroy it, thus preventing her own arrest, or otherwise act against the people that wanted her arrested:)?
It's a nice story even if I've misnuderstood;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 19, 2015, 04:04:07 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;837216
He stared at me for a few minutes, and then gave me one of the very best accolades I have ever gotten: "Chirine, you've gone native."

What I'd done was what I think people call 'immersion', nowadays; I was being my Tsolyani alter ego, and playing the role to the hilt. Kathy did the same as Vrisa, and so did the rest of the group. We took on our roles, every Thursday, and we played them as if they were real people. We learned the cultures of Tekumel, and we moved within them like fish in the sea...

I've seen people 'get' Gloriantha, as well as other world-settings as well; it's possible to do... :)
Working with and within the setting is great fun! I love it when my players do that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 19, 2015, 10:48:39 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;837244
Let me check for confirmation. By giving her the hard-to-obtain official order instead of acting on it, did it allow her to destroy it, thus preventing her own arrest, or otherwise act against the people that wanted her arrested:)?
It's a nice story even if I've misnuderstood;).


By showing her the warrant, she was apprised of the reason why I was arresting her. She handed it back to me, and i handed it back to my adjutant for the files. Since we were very old friends and comrades, she was delighted to have me arrest her - hence the "Your tent or mine?" comment. So, she was throughly arrested, moved in with me and the wife, and we then nailed the nitwits who came up with the idea later on.

Later in the same story arc, she 'escaped', in order to get on with her own mission. We all stood around and said "Gosh! We're baffled! How could this have happened? We must launch an investigation! Etc., etc., etc."

Having her under arrest also meant that her room and board didn't come out of her money pouch; it was now Official Business, and we billed the Imperium for all her expenses - we actually made money off the affair, much to the Professor's annoyance! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 19, 2015, 10:50:42 PM
Quote from: Bren;837276
Working with and within the setting is great fun! I love it when my players do that.


Agreed, and very strongly at that! This is what we did as a matter of course, back then; GMs with campaigns that didn't allow for this kind of engagement just didn't last long, and their campaigns tended to die off in a few months a nobody could get interested in them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 20, 2015, 03:15:06 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;837324
By showing her the warrant, she was apprised of the reason why I was arresting her. She handed it back to me, and i handed it back to my adjutant for the files. Since we were very old friends and comrades, she was delighted to have me arrest her - hence the "Your tent or mine?" comment. So, she was throughly arrested, moved in with me and the wife, and we then nailed the nitwits who came up with the idea later on.

Later in the same story arc, she 'escaped', in order to get on with her own mission. We all stood around and said "Gosh! We're baffled! How could this have happened? We must launch an investigation! Etc., etc., etc."

Having her under arrest also meant that her room and board didn't come out of her money pouch; it was now Official Business, and we billed the Imperium for all her expenses - we actually made money off the affair, much to the Professor's annoyance! :)

That's even better:D! I guess the word "give" tripped me up, and I didn't know your official could decide in what condition the arrested is to be kept.
I'm still behind on my Tekumel lore, though:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;837325
Agreed, and very strongly at that! This is what we did as a matter of course, back then; GMs with campaigns that didn't allow for this kind of engagement just didn't last long, and their campaigns tended to die off in a few months a nobody could get interested in them.

These days, it's the other way around for some of my players. They tend to engage with the setting because they've learned, sometimes the hard way, that it's the only way to see one of the multiple traps before walking into them.
Well, some of them are just naturals in engaging with the setting, the rest had to be motivated;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 22, 2015, 08:43:15 AM
Yes, I'm sorry - I should have been more clear!

I was the Deputy Governor of the province at the time, and so had a lot of say in the process. I did clear everything with my Governor, of course, who thought that the idea of arresting the noble Lady was about as dumb an idea as you can get. We were also on campaign with our little army, demonstrating the benefits of civilization to the locals, which also meant that we had a lot of leeway in the process.

Very interesting comment on your players! Can you tell me more? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: RPGPundit on June 25, 2015, 01:06:20 AM
It sounds like a spectacular sort of campaign.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 25, 2015, 08:40:36 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;838021
It sounds like a spectacular sort of campaign.


Well, I guess you could have called it that. :) We played the same player-characters for over a dozen years, 'growing' them from your basic entry-level people to pretty high ranking ones in that time. Some also 'went up in level', as they invested time in the various temple schools to learn new skills - which was how we dealt with people having to drop in and out of the campaign over time.

By the middle 1980s, we were well into what I think people refer to as 'the domain game' as we tried to manage the affairs of the province that I was assigned to. Phil had handed out fiefs to two players back at the beginning of the campaign in 1974, but it just didn't work out - the players involved were just too 'footloose' to stay and manage the fiefs. I will freely admit that I loved the challenge of running the government; Phil was worried that we would not have enough to do, but I used to send out the other players on 'missions' and 'quests' that were generated by the problems we faced in governing a frontier province.

Over the years, we played against the backdrop of a dozen major story arcs, and we heard about them through the usual rumors in the market place - Phil would then add our adventures into his novels, as rumors that the characters in his books would hear from their sources...

It was all great fun - we had immense amounts of what I think is called 'immersion', these days, and being in the main all F/SF fans we did a lot of 'non-gamer' things like artwork and the costumes our characters would have worn.

I don't think one could run a campaign like that, any more. My perception is that people don't have the time to devote to something like that, and I get the impression that there's a desire for 'rules turnover' amongst players these days.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Moracai on June 25, 2015, 08:59:40 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838042
I don't think one could run a campaign like that, any more. My perception is that people don't have the time to devote to something like that, and I get the impression that there's a desire for 'rules turnover' amongst players these days.
I think so too.

And to add to your impression, people like to play different characters in different settings more and not to devote their experience to just one character for such a lenghty period of time. There's a thing called "gamer ADHD", and I too suffer from it occasionally.

Great story nonetheless :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 25, 2015, 10:07:49 AM
Quote from: Moracai;838043
I think so too.

And to add to your impression, people like to play different characters in different settings more and not to devote their experience to just one character for such a lenghty period of time. There's a thing called "gamer ADHD", and I too suffer from it occasionally.

Great story nonetheless :)


Thank you! And I want to say that I'm not meaning to denigrate anyone's play style, either. About all I;m saying is that the past is a different place; we did things differently there... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 25, 2015, 01:48:55 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838042
I don't think one could run a campaign like that, any more. My perception is that people don't have the time to devote to something like that, and I get the impression that there's a desire for 'rules turnover' amongst players these days.
We still play the long game. We still play the Call of Cthulhu characters we started in the 1980s and the Star Wars characters we started in the 1990s. Our current game of Honor+Intrigue has run 165 sessions with each PC having run on between 1 and 137 sessions.

But judging by what I read online there are a lot of folks who don't play long campaigns. I suspect that people who play short campaigns or who switch systems a lot are more likely to post online than folks like you or me.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Moracai on June 25, 2015, 03:14:15 PM
We played Warhammer back when we were kids somewhat in the long run, but had to switch characters because they always became too powerful.

I played a whole family. It started out with one female elf noble, who then later had kids with another male elf PC, and I played those brother and younger sister too for quite a while.

Nowadays we play usually one story at a time, and then switch GMs to another setting and system. Hell, on a private RPG guild forum, a friend from another town commented that if they manage to go six sessions with same characters that is a minor miracle!

But enough about my experiences.

Chirine, have you read any of the new Tekumel products and  if so, what do you think about them?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: K Peterson on June 25, 2015, 06:29:17 PM
Quote from: Bren;838061
I suspect that people who play short campaigns or who switch systems a lot are more likely to post online than folks like you or me.

Not to bust your balls here... but, you've got 2400+ posts on this site in nearly a year, which seems like quite a lot of active online posting to me. So, that doesn't seem like that strong a measuring stick to determine who likes short/long campaigns.

I haven't had a CoC or RQ campaign last for more than a year for the past 30 years (too much insanity; murdering by crazed cultists; or general dismemberment), and I can barely get off my ass - or have the time - to post on a forum once a day.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: econobus on June 25, 2015, 06:40:53 PM
How rarely we get these opportunities!

1. Back when you were quitting the site you mentioned the "mythology" that's sprung up around Blackmoor. How would you characterize the way people now imagine Arneson games worked? I'm not looking for any evaluation of that imaginary approach, just your sense of what they're thinking.

2. The mundane historical accounts for the early history of the Kingdoms of the West and East are a little more complete than what we have on the Middle. Any reminiscences you might have on how things in what is now Northshield developed would be welcome.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 25, 2015, 10:06:08 PM
Quote from: Bren;838061
We still play the long game. We still play the Call of Cthulhu characters we started in the 1980s and the Star Wars characters we started in the 1990s. Our current game of Honor+Intrigue has run 165 sessions with each PC having run on between 1 and 137 sessions.

But judging by what I read online there are a lot of folks who don't play long campaigns. I suspect that people who play short campaigns or who switch systems a lot are more likely to post online than folks like you or me.


Very cool! I think you're right about the forum postings, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 25, 2015, 10:15:21 PM
Quote from: Moracai;838068
We played Warhammer back when we were kids somewhat in the long run, but had to switch characters because they always became too powerful.

I played a whole family. It started out with one female elf noble, who then later had kids with another male elf PC, and I played those brother and younger sister too for quite a while.

Nowadays we play usually one story at a time, and then switch GMs to another setting and system. Hell, on a private RPG guild forum, a friend from another town commented that if they manage to go six sessions with same characters that is a minor miracle!

But enough about my experiences.

Chirine, have you read any of the new Tekumel products and  if so, what do you think about them?


Thanks for your experiences - I thought it sounded fun! :)

I have all the new Tekumel products in my archives; I routinely pick up everything and anything, as I serve as a sort of 'archive of last resort', especially when people's servers fail and stuff gets lost.

Jeff Dee's "Bethorm" is a very good approximation of the rules that Phil used in the mid 1980s - Phil used EPT's combat system and S&G's magic system, when be bothered to use any formal rules at all. If you want to get a feel for the way Phil was playing at that point in time, I'd suggest "Bethorm'. However, I'd also make the caveat that the rules are best suited for an experienced RPG player / GM; they are not an 'entry level' set of rules. For that, I still suggest EPT.

Jeff is also starting to come out with some scenarios and additional materials, too. The 'cardboard heroes' are also wonderful - I use them myself!

James Maliszewski's 'zine, "The Excellent Travelling Volume", is also very good; I like it, as it's very solid and well-researched.

Please feel to ask more questions, too!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 25, 2015, 10:33:29 PM
Quote from: econobus;838089
How rarely we get these opportunities!

1. Back when you were quitting the site you mentioned the "mythology" that's sprung up around Blackmoor. How would you characterize the way people now imagine Arneson games worked? I'm not looking for any evaluation of that imaginary approach, just your sense of what they're thinking.

2. The mundane historical accounts for the early history of the Kingdoms of the West and East are a little more complete than what we have on the Middle. Any reminiscences you might have on how things in what is now Northshield developed would be welcome.


1. There's a lot of nonsense about the way Dave played and organized Blackmoor floating about; a lot of people are assuming that he was working to A Great Master Plan when he wasn't. He loved to simply play, and he whipped up the game mechanics and 'history' / 'timeline' to suit the game in progress. I guess that the best way to 'play like Dave' is to not over-think the thing - don't worry about how it all has to make sense somehow. Think Fred Funk, as King of the Orcs, with the escalator that plays "Rule Britannia"...

Add in The Great Feud, with the very nasty and very rude people on both sides of the debate, and you get kind of a toxic situation. From my point of view, this feud has really come to obscure what Dave and Gary did in their games. There's a perception that Dave played the rules all the time; he didn't, in my experience, and was a master of 'faking it' on the game table. Yes, Dave was good at game mechanics - we all were, at that time - but he never let them get in the way of a good game.

With Dave, and any of the Twin Cities crowd at that time, you had to think really fast and really know your stuff in any game you played - they were just as fast and just as good in ACW games as they were in RPGs, and very, very smart. This kind of player really thrives in the 'Free Kriegspiel' sort of game that led to Braunstein, and thence to Blackmoor. Speaking as a guy who had to GM / referee these guys, all you could do was gird your loins and hang on for dear life as they took off with the game and ran with it.

Have you looked at the video clips I mentioned in both my blog and the other thread in the 'help' forum? That might help explain what I'm trying to say.

2. So you like opening cans of worms, then? :)

I'd like to suggest that the sordid history of Northshield's beginnings be done in PMs; I know where all the skeletons are buried - I keep everything, in my files - and I doubt any of the current people in the local SCA would be amused at having all those old bones come dancing out... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 25, 2015, 11:17:12 PM
Oh, dear God, no...

Let the dead bury the dead.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 25, 2015, 11:28:28 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838049
Thank you! And I want to say that I'm not meaning to denigrate anyone's play style, either. About all I;m saying is that the past is a different place; we did things differently there... :)


Which is one of the reasons I love Gary Con.

Really... playing "Don't Give Up The Ship" with Mike Carr, Bill Hoyt, and Dave Wesley?  In the words of Master Yoda, "Better than that, it does not get."

And I hope next year the schedule will work out so that you can participate in the "Fourth Annual Battle on the Ice from Alexander Nevsky."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 25, 2015, 11:55:03 PM
I would like to add my voice to those asking Chirine to stick around.

Yes, the game industry has changed, and our style of play is no longer in vogue.  However, think of it like the model railroad hobby; there is not the emphasis on scratchbuilding that there was 60 or 70 years ago, but on the other hand there are still people doing it, and doing it quite well.  But the profit margin is better on a $250 locomotive then on five bucks worth of brass sheet, a motor, and some drivers.

(Alf Modine builds beautiful O scale CNW steamers from scratch.  Breathtaking, but I'm glad I can buy ready to run models.)

Just like there are still places where scratchbuilders still gather and talk, there is a place for those interested in older style gaming.  Interestingly I made a convert to OD&D out of a young friend who cut his teeth on edition 3.5; he said "I like the way I can say I want to sneak up behind him and bash him over the head and knock him out and you roll dice and it either happens or it doesn't and we get on with the damn game."

Why is it, you suppose, that the "Free Kriegspiel" philosophy has gone out of favor?  I personally think the demographic shift in the early 80s to a much younger target audience was a big part of it.  Take a bunch of 13 year old boys, give one of them some vestigial authority, remove adult supervision, and voila, Lord of the Flies.  Hence the drive for "more concrete rules to protect players from the arbitrary whims of referees."

Plus, a lot of people seem to love to hang on to old resentments.  I've seen forum posts complaining about things that happened in games back in the 90s.  So the Lord of the Flies aspect is never forgiven or forgotten.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2015, 12:32:44 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838125
Oh, dear God, no...

Let the dead bury the dead.


Agreed. Very strongly agreed!

Ya know, it's like when I was talking to Luke at Gary Con about his dad and Dave; he said "They're both gone. Let's let it go."

Couldn't agree more...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2015, 12:34:35 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838127
Which is one of the reasons I love Gary Con.

Really... playing "Don't Give Up The Ship" with Mike Carr, Bill Hoyt, and Dave Wesley?  In the words of Master Yoda, "Better than that, it does not get."

And I hope next year the schedule will work out so that you can participate in the "Fourth Annual Battle on the Ice from Alexander Nevsky."


Thank you; I'd love to. At the moment, everything is on hold while Luke, Paul, and Victor discuss the matter. Luke suggested that Tekumel get a room for us to hold forth in, and we'll see if that comes to pass.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2015, 12:39:58 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838130
I would like to add my voice to those asking Chirine to stick around.

Yes, the game industry has changed, and our style of play is no longer in vogue.  However, think of it like the model railroad hobby; there is not the emphasis on scratchbuilding that there was 60 or 70 years ago, but on the other hand there are still people doing it, and doing it quite well.  But the profit margin is better on a $250 locomotive then on five bucks worth of brass sheet, a motor, and some drivers.

(Alf Modine builds beautiful O scale CNW steamers from scratch.  Breathtaking, but I'm glad I can buy ready to run models.)

Just like there are still places where scratchbuilders still gather and talk, there is a place for those interested in older style gaming.  Interestingly I made a convert to OD&D out of a young friend who cut his teeth on edition 3.5; he said "I like the way I can say I want to sneak up behind him and bash him over the head and knock him out and you roll dice and it either happens or it doesn't and we get on with the damn game."

Why is it, you suppose, that the "Free Kriegspiel" philosophy has gone out of favor?  I personally think the demographic shift in the early 80s to a much younger target audience was a big part of it.  Take a bunch of 13 year old boys, give one of them some vestigial authority, remove adult supervision, and voila, Lord of the Flies.  Hence the drive for "more concrete rules to protect players from the arbitrary whims of referees."

Plus, a lot of people seem to love to hang on to old resentments.  I've seen forum posts complaining about things that happened in games back in the 90s.  So the Lord of the Flies aspect is never forgiven or forgotten.


I'd agree with all this. I also think the revolution in video gaming has something to do with it, as now the rewards structure is much more immediate and direct then what we had in yours and my adventures in Phil's games.

I dunno. I just dunno. I keep building stuff and having it in the game room, but the will to play seems to be dropping off pretty dramatically amongst potential players. My work schedule and the logistics involved in doing games at conventions and the local shops is a huge barrier to getting players, too.

I'll keep modeling, and maintaining the archives, and hope that the wheel turns yet again some time in the future... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 26, 2015, 08:37:08 AM
Quote from: K Peterson;838087
Not to bust your balls here... but, you've got 2400+ posts on this site in nearly a year, which seems like quite a lot of active online posting to me. So, that doesn't seem like that strong a measuring stick to determine who likes short/long campaigns.

I haven't had a CoC or RQ campaign last for more than a year for the past 30 years (too much insanity; murdering by crazed cultists; or general dismemberment), and I can barely get off my ass - or have the time - to post on a forum once a day.
Yes I post a lot. That's unrelated to my point since I was referring to the number of posters, not the number of posts made by the posters.

As you pointed out I post a lot and in consequence I read a lot of posts. And in my experience from reading lots of posts by lots of posters on multiple forums it seems like most posters run or play in shorter campaigns and run or play in more systems than I do and, possibly more to the point, than do any of the people I game with, none of whom post on or read forums. Often people who post on forums do so because they are unsatisfied with one or two systems, unsatisfied with a single setting, and unsatisfied with one or two characters - all reasons why they may choose to switch systems and campaigns more frequently than someone like me or Chirine ba Kal.

On the other hand, maybe my impression is wrong and there is either no correlation or even a positive correlation between likelihood to post and likelihood to play long games. Got any evidence for that?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: K Peterson on June 26, 2015, 10:16:16 AM
Quote from: Bren;838166
On the other hand, maybe my impression is wrong and there is either no correlation or even a positive correlation between likelihood to post and likelihood to play long games. Got any evidence for that?

Not I. I just thought it seemed a rather tenuous and anecdotal statement.

In any case, I won't further veer this thread off course from what is definitely an interesting topic.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Moracai on June 26, 2015, 11:44:55 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838115
Please feel to ask more questions, too!

Sure!  One review  about a newer version of Tekumel wrote about that the magic in the setting/system was difficult to grasp, or perhaps it was an editing fault.

What was your impression about spells and rituals in Tekumel, specifically the division between divine magic and arcane magic?

Oh, not a question, but an observation. It must be because of a system and marketing thing that the gameplay has diverged from long term having fun to "must-collect-all-the-levels". My first introduction to RPGs was through the ever-popular Red-Box. By reading it here in Finland, where we didn't have any DMs then, the impression I got was vastly different from your and OGs experiences.

This must have been the same world-over. Consequently when people started creating their own games, their style differed very much from the intended.



You mentioned that you 'leveled' only through roleplaying your character's advancement.

How did those 'levels' affected your characters mechanically, if in any way?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2015, 12:25:02 PM
Quote from: Moracai;838183
Sure!  One review  about a newer version of Tekumel wrote about that the magic in the setting/system was difficult to grasp, or perhaps it was an editing fault.

What was your impression about spells and rituals in Tekumel, specifically the division between divine magic and arcane magic?


Let's hear from my leaden alter ego, eh? :)

"Well, let's see; I should mention at the start that I am a Tenth Circle Military Sorcerer of the Temple of Vimuhla, Lord of Flame and War. I was rolled up in early 1976, using EPT as the rules. In EPT, I am off the charts as these only go to Ninth Circle - I got the impression that the Professor didn't expect any of us to live long enough to go any higher."

"I hate to be the one to have to say this, but there is none of what you'd call 'magic' on Tekumel. There is no divine or arcane magic; it's all technology of the Ancients. When I 'cast a spell', I reach through the Skin of Reality to tap the energies of the Planes Beyond; what I do with my vocables and gestures, glyphs and incense, etc., or with my concentrations is to replicate the 'circuit boards' of the Ancient technology that is used in devices like the Eyes or the tubeway cars."

"Likewise, 'summoning a demon' is nothing like what the mages of your world try to do; in my world, I reach through the Planes of Reality to contact other beings, and bring them to my bubble universe to get something done. I myself, for example, regularly got 'summoned as a demon' to the odd world of Blackmoor by the Elven mages I knew in order to get things done for them. (I wish they'd called first; I was in the bathtub.)"

"When I use my skills, I serve as the 'software' / 'hardware' / 'wetware' for using the energies I draw upon. Eyes do the very same thing, but in a much more handy form for non-priests."

Right, then. I'll let you in on one of The Big Secrets Of The Game Industry: Tekumel, at least as practiced by one Firu ba Yeker / M. A. R. Barker, is not a 'fantasy role-playing game'. It's a game setting in a 'Sword and Planet Romance' universe, and the technology is what is doing all the work. No divine (the 'gods' are simply more advanced beings then we are), no arcane, no Vancian magic - it's all Sir Arthur's Third Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." The Lords of Humanspace were absolute masters of energy and matter, and could control anything.

The 'magic' description in EPT came from Gary, who felt that the gamers of the time (1975) would not be able to deal with a 'pure' SF RPG; he felt that calling it 'magic' would make it more accessible to the gamer audience. In effect, EPT paved the way for Metamorphosis Alpha at TSR. (Likewise, Gary asked that the Stability/Change thing be changed to Good/Evil, as he thought that the former was going to be too subtle for gamers to handle.)

When technic civilization on Tekumel collapsed, the various sages figured out ways to continue to tap other-planar energy through rituals and such; simpler 'spells' are those called 'psychic', and can be done by simply thinking about them; more elaborate ones are 'ritual', because you need to have 'ingredients' to make them work.

As a military sorcerer, I was unique amongst Phil's players - I have a very limited spell corpora. I do not have many of the usual spells that most players have. On the other hand, I do have what would have been the 'M series' spells in S&G if Phil had included them - the very powerful battlefield spells that mean that I am a pretty potent weapon in a one person package. It also means that I am a very high-value target for foes, and I tend to attract a lot of incoming attention. Hence the steel armor, which is a weapon in it's own right.

As a player-character, I am actually pretty useless in most adventuring parties. In effect, I am what I think is called a 'tank' in the RPG setting, and I am pretty good at melee combat. Give me a little fighting room, and some energy to manipulate, and I can do some pretty Big Things... :)

Does this help, or have I made things worse? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2015, 12:30:03 PM
Quote from: Moracai;838183
Oh, not a question, but an observation. It must be because of a system and marketing thing that the gameplay has diverged from long term having fun to "must-collect-all-the-levels". My first introduction to RPGs was through the ever-popular Red-Box. By reading it here in Finland, where we didn't have any DMs then, the impression I got was vastly different from your and OGs experiences.

This must have been the same world-over. Consequently when people started creating their own games, their style differed very much from the intended.


I would agree with this. It's like the way GW marketed their "Warhammer" game series. Businesses are in business to stay in business; in the industry, you do this by selling rules and accessories to people. See also Gary's famous comment: "We have to keep the players from finding out that they don't need the rules..." :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: econobus on June 26, 2015, 12:38:56 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838118
A lot of people are assuming that he was working to A Great Master Plan when he . . . was  a master of 'faking it' on the game table.


Love it. The assumption matches what I've seen and the sense of his style matches what I've been able to reconstruct over the years. If there had been a grand ur-setting in a filing cabinet somewhere, it would have been published. As for style, a jazz metaphor comes to mind in which the only part of the number that can be easily replicated is actually very vestigial, but the improvised solo -- the performance, the "jamming" -- is a unique interaction among all parties.

A little different from playing in a cover band.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838118
2. So you like opening cans of worms, then? :)


Happy to take it to PM or even something more civilized. I came out of the wilds of Atenveldt so have no dog in any fights. It's just interesting to me why a "Middle Rite" never evolved up there, speaking of searches for rules-based legitimacy, etc. Thank you already.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2015, 12:42:53 PM
Quote from: Moracai;838183
You mentioned that you 'leveled' only through roleplaying your character's advancement.

How did those 'levels' affected your characters mechanically, if in any way?


I should note that I'm breaking these answers up into separate posts to make them a little easier to answer...

After about the first year of play, once we'd gotten away from the Jakalla Underworld 'dungeon crawls', Phil stopped handing out XP; he didn't like doing the book-keeping in a really big way, as he felt that it got in the way of the plot lines. We'd have to keep track of the numbers ourselves, and Phil expected us to be fair about it.

When we'd do something noble and heroic, getting a job done for the Imperium or somebody with pull, we'd get a promotion and some rewards. We could then spend the money on a tutor or something similar, with the idea that we could then 'go up a level'; Phil would have us deduct the costs of the 'classroom work' from our piles of loot, and then we'd have to go back into the rules and do the number-crunching to get the game mechanics taken care of.

(In the game group, this was a handy way to allow for people to drop in and out over time; if you had to take a leave of absence, you were assumed to be off at the Temple academy learning some new spells, or in the army doing a tour of duty with the troops. When you got back, Phil would tell you you'd gone up a level and do the math.)

So, basically we'd work on our skills when we could, and add them up after a couple of months in the game. As an example of this, I taught classes in specialized melee combat to some of the PCs while we were on our various sea journeys - there wasn't much else to do except watch the ocean go by - and so several PCs picked up levels in 'mace' and 'dagger' along the way.

Once we'd done the number-crunching, we'd get on with the adventure. It seemed to have worked fine for us.

Again, am I helping or confusing? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AxesnOrcs on June 26, 2015, 12:48:06 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838194
Let's hear from my leaden alter ego, eh? :)

"Well, let's see; I should mention at the start that I am a Tenth Circle Military Sorcerer of the Temple of Vimuhla, Lord of Flame and War. I was rolled up in early 1976, using EPT as the rules. In EPT, I am off the charts as these only go to Ninth Circle - I got the impression that the Professor didn't expect any of us to live long enough to go any higher."

"I hate to be the one to have to say this, but there is none of what you'd call 'magic' on Tekumel. There is no divine or arcane magic; it's all technology of the Ancients. When I 'cast a spell', I reach through the Skin of Reality to tap the energies of the Planes Beyond; what I do with my vocables and gestures, glyphs and incense, etc., or with my concentrations is to replicate the 'circuit boards' of the Ancient technology that is used in devices like the Eyes or the tubeway cars."

"Likewise, 'summoning a demon' is nothing like what the mages of your world try to do; in my world, I reach through the Planes of Reality to contact other beings, and bring them to my bubble universe to get something done. I myself, for example, regularly got 'summoned as a demon' to the odd world of Blackmoor by the Elven mages I knew in order to get things done for them. (I wish they'd called first; I was in the bathtub.)"

"When I use my skills, I serve as the 'software' / 'hardware' / 'wetware' for using the energies I draw upon. Eyes do the very same thing, but in a much more handy form for non-priests."

Right, then. I'll let you in on one of The Big Secrets Of The Game Industry: Tekumel, at least as practiced by one Firu ba Yeker / M. A. R. Barker, is not a 'fantasy role-playing game'. It's a game setting in a 'Sword and Planet Romance' universe, and the technology is what is doing all the work. No divine (the 'gods' are simply more advanced beings then we are), no arcane, no Vancian magic - it's all Sir Arthur's Third Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." The Lords of Humanspace were absolute masters of energy and matter, and could control anything.

The 'magic' description in EPT came from Gary, who felt that the gamers of the time (1975) would not be able to deal with a 'pure' SF RPG; he felt that calling it 'magic' would make it more accessible to the gamer audience. In effect, EPT paved the way for Metamorphosis Alpha at TSR. (Likewise, Gary asked that the Stability/Change thing be changed to Good/Evil, as he thought that the former was going to be too subtle for gamers to handle.)

When technic civilization on Tekumel collapsed, the various sages figured out ways to continue to tap other-planar energy through rituals and such; simpler 'spells' are those called 'psychic', and can be done by simply thinking about them; more elaborate ones are 'ritual', because you need to have 'ingredients' to make them work.

As a military sorcerer, I was unique amongst Phil's players - I have a very limited spell corpora. I do not have many of the usual spells that most players have. On the other hand, I do have what would have been the 'M series' spells in S&G if Phil had included them - the very powerful battlefield spells that mean that I am a pretty potent weapon in a one person package. It also means that I am a very high-value target for foes, and I tend to attract a lot of incoming attention. Hence the steel armor, which is a weapon in it's own right.

As a player-character, I am actually pretty useless in most adventuring parties. In effect, I am what I think is called a 'tank' in the RPG setting, and I am pretty good at melee combat. Give me a little fighting room, and some energy to manipulate, and I can do some pretty Big Things... :)

Does this help, or have I made things worse? :)


Well then. All of that is pretty awesome sounding.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2015, 12:49:04 PM
Quote from: econobus;838199
Love it. The assumption matches what I've seen and the sense of his style matches what I've been able to reconstruct over the years. If there had been a grand ur-setting in a filing cabinet somewhere, it would have been published. As for style, a jazz metaphor comes to mind in which the only part of the number that can be easily replicated is actually very vestigial, but the improvised solo -- the performance, the "jamming" -- is a unique interaction among all parties.

A little different from playing in a cover band.



Happy to take it to PM or even something more civilized. I came out of the wilds of Atenveldt so have no dog in any fights. It's just interesting to me why a "Middle Rite" never evolved up there, speaking of searches for rules-based legitimacy, etc. Thank you already.


1. Very much so - this a really good way to describe the way Dave played and GM'd.

2. Yeah. The Middle Kingdom was, at least in my time, too geographically spread out to be a viable political entity. The kingdom's focus was always to the east, due to travel times more then anything else. Anything west or north of Chicago was in effect cut off from the center of things in the kingdom which is one of the reasons that Northshield was being mooted about as early as 1977. It was more like Italy in the 1400s, then anything else, with the north being the center of things and the south and Sicily being more or less ignored.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2015, 12:53:36 PM
Quote from: AxesnOrcs;838204
Well then. All of that is pretty awesome sounding.


Thank you! I hope I'm helping, here.

This is, I think, why Tekumel is a difficult thing for people to get their heads around - "impenetrable", as one reviewer described it.

We all came out of F/SF fandom at the time, and we 'got' the many references that Phil included in his world - the Grey Lensmen, Barsoom, Conan, and the Lovecraftian mythos. Phil had been very active in fandom in the 1940s and 1950s, and it really showed.

Have a look at "A Princess of Mars"; I think you'll see some fun stuff... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 26, 2015, 12:58:19 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838194
"I hate to be the one to have to say this, but there is none of what you'd call 'magic' on Tekumel. There is no divine or arcane magic; it's all technology of the Ancients.
I could have sworn that was in the original TSR EPT rules. I know we knew that back in the 1970s and we had to have learned it from somewhere. As far as I know, none of us played with the Minneapolis or Wisconsin crowds.

The three oddities about EPT to my recollection were (1) essentially no metal, armor and weapons made of that weird hardened chlen hide stuff, (2) no riding beasts in the major Empires, and (3) magic was really tech with the weird eyes and subway cars and stuff. Definitely swords and planets or like a lot of Andre Norton's or Leigh Brackett's stories.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on June 26, 2015, 01:45:13 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838208
Thank you! I hope I'm helping, here.

This is, I think, why Tekumel is a difficult thing for people to get their heads around - "impenetrable", as one reviewer described it.


If this was ever "wrapped up" it may help new players.
You, too, CAN run Empire of the Petal Throne (http://odd74.proboards.com/thread/6117/run-empire-petal-throne)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: econobus on June 26, 2015, 01:50:49 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838205
The Middle Kingdom was, at least in my time, too geographically spread out to be a viable political entity.


Thanks. I get that feeling! In a world where the "North Woods" starts in Ann Arbor you all must have been in the true back of beyond, which is a shame because I think of the Twin Cities scene as being such a more vibrant fandom in general. Your people should have been free decades previously but that's just the Aten in me talking.

Got to keep this gamey, I guess. Um, did anyone ever interact with the Gods of Pavar directly, or were they more like abstract cultural fixtures that peasants venerated sincerely, philosophers classed as "entities" and nobody met face to face?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2015, 02:24:37 PM
Quote from: Bren;838210
I could have sworn that was in the original TSR EPT rules. I know we knew that back in the 1970s and we had to have learned it from somewhere. As far as I know, none of us played with the Minneapolis or Wisconsin crowds.

The three oddities about EPT to my recollection were (1) essentially no metal, armor and weapons made of that weird hardened chlen hide stuff, (2) no riding beasts in the major Empires, and (3) magic was really tech with the weird eyes and subway cars and stuff. Definitely swords and planets or like a lot of Andre Norton's or Leigh Brackett's stories.


I believe you are right - it'd be in the historical introduction section in EPT. Phil also expanded on this in S&G I, too.

Yep, those three features are Tekumel's unique 'signature items'. In the context of the fantasy literature of the time, they were really odd; in the context of space opera or sword and planet, they're kinda par for the course... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2015, 02:26:15 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;838219
If this was ever "wrapped up" it may help new players.
You, too, CAN run Empire of the Petal Throne (http://odd74.proboards.com/thread/6117/run-empire-petal-throne)


Agreed! I'm not sure that there's an easy or good way to do this. Any suggestions would be welcome! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2015, 02:32:03 PM
Quote from: econobus;838220
Thanks. I get that feeling! In a world where the "North Woods" starts in Ann Arbor you all must have been in the true back of beyond, which is a shame because I think of the Twin Cities scene as being such a more vibrant fandom in general. Your people should have been free decades previously but that's just the Aten in me talking.

Got to keep this gamey, I guess. Um, did anyone ever interact with the Gods of Pavar directly, or were they more like abstract cultural fixtures that peasants venerated sincerely, philosophers classed as "entities" and nobody met face to face?


1. The center of gravity of the middle was in Ohio; getting anyone from the royal court up to the Twin Cities was like pulling teeth. The principality-in-embryo simply didn't have enough people to be viable for decades; no people, no groups, and those that did exist were very few, very small, and very far between.

2. Why, yes, we did all the time. But then, we were the top of the cream of the crop of the elite, and so we tended to see more of the gods then anybody else. Most of the people of Tekumel were like what you postulate; the gods were abstractions, more then anything else. Mind you, I would have rather had the meddlers stay abstractions, but they tended to want to get their tentacles into everything...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 26, 2015, 04:08:44 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838224
I believe you are right - it'd be in the historical introduction section in EPT. Phil also expanded on this in S&G I, too.

Yep, those three features are Tekumel's unique 'signature items'. In the context of the fantasy literature of the time, they were really odd; in the context of space opera or sword and planet, they're kinda par for the course... :)
Certainly not any weirder than the Mars books of Burroughs, Tharks, air plants, flying battle ships, and the beautiful Deja Thoris laying an egg for her and John Carter's child.

I wonder how much of an influence the Ace reprints and the Science Fiction Book Club had on extending the knowledge and influence of the earlier swords and planets and space opera fiction of the 20s, 30s, and 40s? I wonder if there is anything like that today for young people?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Moracai on June 26, 2015, 05:07:26 PM
Thank you kindly chirine!

The answers to my questions were very helpful and not confusing at all :)

One thing sprang to mind though. When you mention that you always leveled after a training period, one person quite recently told me that he read somewhere (as you see this is all umphteenth hand hearsay) that it was Gary who decided at some point that "fuck this, you can level when you get the XP". In his rules what I've read it was always stated that you need to level up in a town.

Can you confirm or debunk any of this?

Now I'll go read all the posts that have come after that your particular comment...

Edit - oh, oh, oh. That bit about stability/change being changed to good/evil bit was absolutely wonderful :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 26, 2015, 05:15:13 PM
Quote from: Moracai;838246
When you mention that you always leveled after a training period, one person quite recently told me that he read somewhere (as you see this is all umphteenth hand hearsay) that it was Gary who decided at some point that "fuck this, you can level when you get the XP". In his rules what I've read it was always stated that you need to level up in a town.


OD&D, the three little brown books in the woodgrain box, says nothing about "where you level up."  I'm not familiar with any later versions of the rules.

In actual play, you got XP when the adventure was over.  Since Gary always made sure that a night of playing ended with everybody in some sort of safe haven... town, inn, castle, what have you... we essentially got XP at the end of the night, and if you leveled, you leveled there and then.

I'm not sure where "need to level up in a town" came from, but as I said I have no familiarity with anything after the first printing of OD&D.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Moracai on June 26, 2015, 05:24:35 PM
Two more.

You say that your character was very well aware that Tekumel was in a dimension bubble and all the magicy stuff happening was actually channeling power to these archaic things. But how aware of that fact was the laymen people on average?


Second one is about the interconsistency of things in this world. I have full confidence that there is, but again reading from a review, one guy wrote about a field of towers, or some such. Where there were ancient rocket propelled grenades, or rockets, I forget which (These types of forums RPG is the only thing that cannot be abbreviated to a flying explody thingy), and complained how they would have been functioning after tens of thousands of years.

I kinda have the answer already (it's magic ;) Well ancient tech is beyond our comprehension), but did you personally ever had moments of *what* that does not make any sense to me?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Moracai on June 26, 2015, 05:30:11 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838248
OD&D, the three little brown books in the woodgrain box, says nothing about "where you level up."  I'm not familiar with any later versions of the rules.

In actual play, you got XP when the adventure was over.  Since Gary always made sure that a night of playing ended with everybody in some sort of safe haven... town, inn, castle, what have you... we essentially got XP at the end of the night, and if you leveled, you leveled there and then.

I'm not sure where "need to level up in a town" came from, but as I said I have no familiarity with anything after the first printing of OD&D.
So in essence OD&D sessions ended with crunch, but Tekumel sessions began with crunch?

Edit - if someone leveled that is.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Moracai on June 26, 2015, 05:44:08 PM
OK, one more then I'll call it a night.

Chirine, do you speak Tsoylani?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 26, 2015, 05:45:32 PM
I'm not sure what you mean.  You added a hit die and noted new spells if applicable.  "Leveling up" took about 30 seconds.

Or are you using "crunch" in some way other than "fluff/crunch"?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Moracai on June 26, 2015, 05:59:08 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838255
I'm not sure what you mean.  You added a hit die and noted new spells if applicable.  "Leveling up" took about 30 seconds.

Or are you using "crunch" in some way other than "fluff/crunch"?

I'm using the word in that way yes. It's just a minor thing, but I've always wondered which would be actually the better way to call it a night, but it is probably an unaswerable question as it depends on the person, system and what happened in the session.

Edit - I have nearly always given XP at the end of session and let the players do their stuff whenever they feel like doing, even between sessions if desired. I haven't used the training method since the first version of Runequest that was translated to Finnish (don't know which edition it is).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 26, 2015, 06:28:49 PM
In H+I my players always want to get their XP at the end of the session, but they are usually too tired to figure out what they want to do with it until the beginning of the next session. So we handle increases before the start of the session.

As the GM, I feel almost the reverse. I'm often tired at the end of the session and would rather wait to give out XP (which feels like work for me as the GM) or if I am giving out XP, I'd rather figure out what to do with the XP right away so I know what they have improved before the next session.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2015, 09:49:32 PM
Quote from: Bren;838238
Certainly not any weirder than the Mars books of Burroughs, Tharks, air plants, flying battle ships, and the beautiful Deja Thoris laying an egg for her and John Carter's child.

I wonder how much of an influence the Ace reprints and the Science Fiction Book Club had on extending the knowledge and influence of the earlier swords and planets and space opera fiction of the 20s, 30s, and 40s? I wonder if there is anything like that today for young people?


Agreed; in the context of what Phil had been reading, there's nothing 'odd' abut Tekumel. However, in the context of the popular fantasy stuff that was in vogue in the 1970s, it's very weird. Things got a little more broadly based with the Frazetta covers for the Conan books, but elves and hobbits 'sold' a lot more easily then strongly-muscled anti-heroes any day. By the time Phil got around to writing EPT, ERB was pretty much a forgotten author - as were many of his favorites, like A. E. Merrit.

I think Ace and later DAW had a huge effect in popularizing the genre, but it didn't last long. My kids - the younger college-age members of my game group - were astounded and enchanted when I introduced them to the pleasures of books; all they'd known up to the time that they started playing with me had been Wiki articles. There is a very 'short take' focus on things with the children of the digital age, with an emphasis on doing everything on-screen; they do not have the time to sit down and read one of those book thingies. Just my own xp, of course; it may very well be different elsewhere...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2015, 09:53:41 PM
Quote from: Moracai;838246
Thank you kindly chirine!

The answers to my questions were very helpful and not confusing at all :)

One thing sprang to mind though. When you mention that you always leveled after a training period, one person quite recently told me that he read somewhere (as you see this is all umphteenth hand hearsay) that it was Gary who decided at some point that "fuck this, you can level when you get the XP". In his rules what I've read it was always stated that you need to level up in a town.

Can you confirm or debunk any of this?

Now I'll go read all the posts that have come after that your particular comment...

Edit - oh, oh, oh. That bit about stability/change being changed to good/evil bit was absolutely wonderful :)


You're welcome!

Hm. Never saw the 'level up in town' thing. It was a custom in the games I played in, as all the good stuff you might have wanted was back in civilization, but I don't recall that there was a specific rule about it with either Dave or Gary. Phil really didn't do anything like it, either; we pretty much did what we needed to do, when and where we needed to do it.

Yep, Gary did ask Phil to simplify few things for players... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2015, 09:55:07 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838248
OD&D, the three little brown books in the woodgrain box, says nothing about "where you level up."  I'm not familiar with any later versions of the rules.

In actual play, you got XP when the adventure was over.  Since Gary always made sure that a night of playing ended with everybody in some sort of safe haven... town, inn, castle, what have you... we essentially got XP at the end of the night, and if you leveled, you leveled there and then.

I'm not sure where "need to level up in a town" came from, but as I said I have no familiarity with anything after the first printing of OD&D.


Agreed. I don't recall we ever did this, but then all I ever played was the same edition you did.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 26, 2015, 10:13:20 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838287
My kids - the younger college-age members of my game group - were astounded and enchanted when I introduced them to the pleasures of books; all they'd known up to the time that they started playing with me had been Wiki articles. There is a very 'short take' focus on things with the children of the digital age, with an emphasis on doing everything on-screen; they do not have the time to sit down and read one of those book thingies. Just my own xp, of course; it may very well be different elsewhere...
Mostly I play with old geezers like myself or the rare youngster who has been exposed to the works of dead authors. It does seem like the major influence on a lot of newer gamers comes from anime, comics, and CRPGs. Undoubtedly that influences what they think of or find interesting in their gaming.

Re: leveling up. The way we played way back in the day it was very rare for anyone to level up except after multiple sessions.* Since most dungeon exploration tended to end up back in town leveling de facto occurred in town, though it was not a de jure requirement.

* The exception would be a low level PC tagging along with a group of higher level PCs. That sort of coattail riding did occur (sometimes) and that was the only way PCs leveled really fast.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2015, 10:14:38 PM
Quote from: Moracai;838250
Two more.

You say that your character was very well aware that Tekumel was in a dimension bubble and all the magicy stuff happening was actually channeling power to these archaic things. But how aware of that fact was the laymen people on average?


Second one is about the interconsistency of things in this world. I have full confidence that there is, but again reading from a review, one guy wrote about a field of towers, or some such. Where there were ancient rocket propelled grenades, or rockets, I forget which (These types of forums RPG is the only thing that cannot be abbreviated to a flying explody thingy), and complained how they would have been functioning after tens of thousands of years.

I kinda have the answer already (it's magic ;) Well ancient tech is beyond our comprehension), but did you personally ever had moments of *what* that does not make any sense to me?


First, we were all *educated* people; we all had very good educations through our temples and positions, and so we 'knew' things right off the mark. Phil didn't worry about this in the game - he assumed that we'd pick this stuff up as we got our education. 'Ordinary' 'lay people', on the other hand, didn't know and didn't care as it was completely outside their lives. They were generally much more interested in the daily and seasonal round of their lives, and we learned not to interfere with that very quickly.

"Well, yes, Lord. that' a really nice Eye thing you have there. Won't get the crops in the ground, though."

Secondly, the time spans in Tekumel are and have always been a sticking point for gamers. Most gamers, in my personal experience, have no sense of history or of the passage of time. Everything is 'right now'. Back when Phil was in F/SF fandom, in the late 1940s and early 1950s, 'eternal engines' and such were very common. In a modern sense, this technology is both sentient and self-repairing - we had all sorts of run ins with the self-aware machines that run the south polar station, for example.

Two samples: Phil once regaled us with his 'dungeon crawl' in real life, where he spent a day wandering through the Red Fort in Dehli. He got lost in all the casemates and buried chambers, and kept tripping over people's trash and abandoned stuff - from the 1700s! This stuff had been dropped and left behind literally two centuries before he's stumbled across it, and it looked like it had just been left there a moment ago. Phil always kept that with him, and passed it along to us.

Another example is that Phil created Tekumel before DNA had been discovered. The Lords of Humanspace didn't use DNA to create their life forms; instead they bred them or cooked them in in the 'life vats' so familiar to readers of pulp fiction. The tall and powerful Nylss warriors, for instance, are the descendants of the original garrison of Space Marines of Tekumel; the Nom are another variety of humans that were bred to be the deckhands of the starships.

The Plain of Towers is the ancient landing field where a number of starships are still sitting. Some still work, as they do have self-repair capability - ask Old Geezer about the trash collector machines, or my players about the matter-converters that the trash collectors 'feed'. Nobody knows how this stuff works; all we know is that sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't. If we're really, really lucky, we can sometimes meet up with the ancient guardians of these technological items, and get some advice on what not to do.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2015, 10:16:37 PM
Quote from: Moracai;838252
So in essence OD&D sessions ended with crunch, but Tekumel sessions began with crunch?

Edit - if someone leveled that is.


We did our number crunching in Phil's games as needed, before/during/after game sessions.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2015, 10:25:35 PM
Quote from: Moracai;838254
OK, one more then I'll call it a night.

Chirine, do you speak Tsoylani?


Yes, but not fluently. I am a much better scribe then I am a linguist; one of the very best compliments I ever got from Phil was after he'd looked over a Tsolyani document I'd written, and then he said to Dave Arneson:

"Chirine has a fine scribal hand."

This, from the guy who'd created the language. He told people that I had better 'penmanship' then he did in Tsolyani, and that may have been true; I used to do up documents as we needed them in the game, and it always seemed to amuse him. His 'cursive' approach to writing Tsolyani was always faster then my 'printing' approach, but my documents usually looked better. Now, when Phil really got going, his Tsolyani documents were exquisite!

We didn't need to do this as a game mechanic, I should add. We just did it for the fun of it, like our costumes, as part of the 'immersion' we had in the game. I still do it, and so do my players - they tend to pass 'secret messages' around in various languages, just to confuse me. :) We've done citizenship papers, writs, maps, and all sorts of 'props' for our game play; it's just part of the fun, for us.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2015, 10:26:41 PM
Quote from: Bren;838265
In H+I my players always want to get their XP at the end of the session, but they are usually too tired to figure out what they want to do with it until the beginning of the next session. So we handle increases before the start of the session.

As the GM, I feel almost the reverse. I'm often tired at the end of the session and would rather wait to give out XP (which feels like work for me as the GM) or if I am giving out XP, I'd rather figure out what to do with the XP right away so I know what they have improved before the next session.


Sounds just like Phil!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 26, 2015, 11:11:54 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838298
Sounds just like Phil!!! :)
Hi praise... I think. ;)

It's one area where as a GM I bow to the player's wishes. Have to keep them  happy enough so they keep coming back.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 27, 2015, 02:37:20 AM
Quote from: Bren;838291
Mostly I play with old geezers like myself or the rare youngster who has been exposed to the works of dead authors. It does seem like the major influence on a lot of newer gamers comes from anime, comics, and CRPGs. Undoubtedly that influences what they think of or find interesting in their gaming.

Re: leveling up. The way we played way back in the day it was very rare for anyone to level up except after multiple sessions.* Since most dungeon exploration tended to end up back in town leveling de facto occurred in town, though it was not a de jure requirement.

* The exception would be a low level PC tagging along with a group of higher level PCs. That sort of coattail riding did occur (sometimes) and that was the only way PCs leveled really fast.


Yep; same here, on all your points.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 27, 2015, 05:10:31 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;837614
Yes, I'm sorry - I should have been more clear!

I was the Deputy Governor of the province at the time, and so had a lot of say in the process. I did clear everything with my Governor, of course, who thought that the idea of arresting the noble Lady was about as dumb an idea as you can get. We were also on campaign with our little army, demonstrating the benefits of civilization to the locals, which also meant that we had a lot of leeway in the process.

Very interesting comment on your players! Can you tell me more? :)

Deputy Governor office makes it all different, doesn't it?
I was assuming a low-level official, whose only options would be to destroy the document or follow it.


And in what concerns my players, I must preface that with an explanation. At least some of them are exactly those that have as major influence anime, comics, and CRPGs. At least some of them, often the same people, also recognize older SF works if I throw a reference.
Still, when some of them were starting, their major influence was CRPGs, including MMORPGs. Metagaming was rampant, communicating with NPCs wasn't the easiest task.
It was made easier by the fact that I had a whole group like that, with only a couple more experienced players, including my wife and myself. They didn't feel like someone was doing much better, and had an example.
Still, I had to make them stop metagaming (which would have been fine if we were playing the kind of game where you have author's view over the events... but we were playing a variation of the One-Roll Engine, and that's a traditional game).
So, what did I do? I told them the truth.
"You can meta-game or not. I'm going to act like you're not, even if you tell me otherwise. The trick is, my NPCs react to what you were doing 0 you've noticed it already - and are never going to get the message that you "just metagamed". As far as they're concerned, you screw them over to protect the interests of some dubious types...meaning that you're not to be trusted and they can screw you back even if they were indebted to you before. Or you're just behaving strangely for no obvious reasons, meaning you're not to be trusted. In short, your best option is to treat the world as a real, living, breathing world, consisting of living, breathing characters...because I'm doing my best to ensure it's true, and you'll need lots of time before you can even spot my mistakes.
Or you can choose to disregard this warning, and metagame to your heart's content. Like the warning that characters can die or be maimed, and there's no resurrection spells, while healing them back is a one-off deal... it's a warning you'll only get once."
Then I went and did what I warned them about. "Just play the NPCs" is the summary of my style of GMing anyway (which I call Lazy GMing). I couldn't run it otherwise even if I wanted - not without switching my GMing style mid-campaign, which I'm loathe to do.
And then, of course, it was rampant metagaming time. Then they noticed the results were exactly as I told them.
The rest was just playing the game, as they say.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838042
Well, I guess you could have called it that.  We played the same player-characters for over a dozen years, 'growing' them from your basic entry-level people to pretty high ranking ones in that time. Some also 'went up in level', as they invested time in the various temple schools to learn new skills - which was how we dealt with people having to drop in and out of the campaign over time.

By the middle 1980s, we were well into what I think people refer to as 'the domain game' as we tried to manage the affairs of the province that I was assigned to. Phil had handed out fiefs to two players back at the beginning of the campaign in 1974, but it just didn't work out - the players involved were just too 'footloose' to stay and manage the fiefs. I will freely admit that I loved the challenge of running the government; Phil was worried that we would not have enough to do, but I used to send out the other players on 'missions' and 'quests' that were generated by the problems we faced in governing a frontier province.

Over the years, we played against the backdrop of a dozen major story arcs, and we heard about them through the usual rumors in the market place - Phil would then add our adventures into his novels, as rumors that the characters in his books would hear from their sources...

It was all great fun - we had immense amounts of what I think is called 'immersion', these days, and being in the main all F/SF fans we did a lot of 'non-gamer' things like artwork and the costumes our characters would have worn.

I don't think one could run a campaign like that, any more. My perception is that people don't have the time to devote to something like that, and I get the impression that there's a desire for 'rules turnover' amongst players these days.

I've run things that were quite similar. Not on the same scale, probably, but similar.
I think I'm going to run my next campaign in this style and see how long I can make it last. So no, I doubt it can't be done. You just need to pick the right people, and teach them that no, the NPCs actually have characters, and they're organised in a society - unlike having pixels on a screen in a MMORPG and "areas closest to the spawning grounds for XP-bringing monsters".

Well, if I run it over 5 years, I don't promise we'd be using the same system as the one we began with. But even if we change them, we're just going to "translate" the PCs and carry on, so does it even matter?

Quote from: Bren;838061
We still play the long game. We still play the Call of Cthulhu characters we started in the 1980s and the Star Wars characters we started in the 1990s. Our current game of Honor+Intrigue has run 165 sessions with each PC having run on between 1 and 137 sessions.

But judging by what I read online there are a lot of folks who don't play long campaigns. I suspect that people who play short campaigns or who switch systems a lot are more likely to post online than folks like you or me.

There are people that don't play long campaigns. There are those that do. There are those that alternate between years-long and one-shots. We actually put long campaigns on hold sometimes in order to try a one-shot or two, or three.
Then we continue. It's not about "modern people", it's about us today having much more choice. Of course we want to sample everything.
Doesn't mean we can't also stay with one setting for years.

Quote from: Old Geezer;838130
I would like to add my voice to those asking Chirine to stick around.

+1 to that.

Quote
Why is it, you suppose, that the "Free Kriegspiel" philosophy has gone out of favor?  I personally think the demographic shift in the early 80s to a much younger target audience was a big part of it.  Take a bunch of 13 year old boys, give one of them some vestigial authority, remove adult supervision, and voila, Lord of the Flies.  Hence the drive for "more concrete rules to protect players from the arbitrary whims of referees."

Plus, a lot of people seem to love to hang on to old resentments.  I've seen forum posts complaining about things that happened in games back in the 90s.  So the Lord of the Flies aspect is never forgiven or forgotten.

I call that phenomenon "bad GMs make players give up on RPGs", and it was one of the first issues I set on solving once I decided to expand the pool of RPG players in my city.
So yeah, I think there's something to it. I can definitely point to another point of view, though.
My brainpower, albeit immense*, is in the end more or less a finite number. I can devote it to resolving everything...or I can use a proto-wargame/boardgame for the domain stuff, Stress Meters for the reactions of NPCs and PCs alike under stress, and a combat system in case of, well, combat. Possibly a different system for spellcasting and research, too.  (And of course, I can always choose not to bother, if the result is obvious). All of this would be almost the opposite of Frei Kriegspiel, right?
Still, if I do that, then I can get to decide just on the consequences of whatever results the systems outputted. You routed the army nobody expected you to even slow down? Well, I've already got the consequences ready. Let's continue with the session!


*Every single one of us has immense brainpower, the brain is a supercomputer. That's besides the point, even supecomputers are limited in the end.

Quote from: Moracai;838183

Oh, not a question, but an observation. It must be because of a system and marketing thing that the gameplay has diverged from long term having fun to "must-collect-all-the-levels". My first introduction to RPGs was through the ever-popular Red-Box. By reading it here in Finland, where we didn't have any DMs then, the impression I got was vastly different from your and OGs experiences.

This must have been the same world-over. Consequently when people started creating their own games, their style differed very much from the intended.

My experience from Bulgaria confirms that your observation is valid. And I know how the first two RPGs in Bulgaria have been developed, although I wasn't part of it.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838194
Let's hear from my leaden alter ego, eh? :)

"Well, let's see; I should mention at the start that I am a Tenth Circle Military Sorcerer of the Temple of Vimuhla, Lord of Flame and War. I was rolled up in early 1976, using EPT as the rules. In EPT, I am off the charts as these only go to Ninth Circle - I got the impression that the Professor didn't expect any of us to live long enough to go any higher."

"I hate to be the one to have to say this, but there is none of what you'd call 'magic' on Tekumel. There is no divine or arcane magic; it's all technology of the Ancients. When I 'cast a spell', I reach through the Skin of Reality to tap the energies of the Planes Beyond; what I do with my vocables and gestures, glyphs and incense, etc., or with my concentrations is to replicate the 'circuit boards' of the Ancient technology that is used in devices like the Eyes or the tubeway cars."

"Likewise, 'summoning a demon' is nothing like what the mages of your world try to do; in my world, I reach through the Planes of Reality to contact other beings, and bring them to my bubble universe to get something done. I myself, for example, regularly got 'summoned as a demon' to the odd world of Blackmoor by the Elven mages I knew in order to get things done for them. (I wish they'd called first; I was in the bathtub.)"

"When I use my skills, I serve as the 'software' / 'hardware' / 'wetware' for using the energies I draw upon. Eyes do the very same thing, but in a much more handy form for non-priests."

I think my players would love that.
But does that mean that carefully disassembling an Eye can teach you more magic?
(I'm asking because I'm thinking of a game that does more or less exactly this - Sorcerers of Ur-Turuk)!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838194

Right, then. I'll let you in on one of The Big Secrets Of The Game Industry: Tekumel, at least as practiced by one Firu ba Yeker / M. A. R. Barker, is not a 'fantasy role-playing game'. It's a game setting in a 'Sword and Planet Romance' universe, and the technology is what is doing all the work. No divine (the 'gods' are simply more advanced beings then we are), no arcane, no Vancian magic - it's all Sir Arthur's Third Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." The Lords of Humanspace were absolute masters of energy and matter, and could control anything.

The 'magic' description in EPT came from Gary, who felt that the gamers of the time (1975) would not be able to deal with a 'pure' SF RPG; he felt that calling it 'magic' would make it more accessible to the gamer audience. In effect, EPT paved the way for Metamorphosis Alpha at TSR. (Likewise, Gary asked that the Stability/Change thing be changed to Good/Evil, as he thought that the former was going to be too subtle for gamers to handle.)

When technic civilization on Tekumel collapsed, the various sages figured out ways to continue to tap other-planar energy through rituals and such; simpler 'spells' are those called 'psychic', and can be done by simply thinking about them; more elaborate ones are 'ritual', because you need to have 'ingredients' to make them work.

As a military sorcerer, I was unique amongst Phil's players - I have a very limited spell corpora. I do not have many of the usual spells that most players have. On the other hand, I do have what would have been the 'M series' spells in S&G if Phil had included them - the very powerful battlefield spells that mean that I am a pretty potent weapon in a one person package. It also means that I am a very high-value target for foes, and I tend to attract a lot of incoming attention. Hence the steel armor, which is a weapon in it's own right.

As a player-character, I am actually pretty useless in most adventuring parties. In effect, I am what I think is called a 'tank' in the RPG setting, and I am pretty good at melee combat. Give me a little fighting room, and some energy to manipulate, and I can do some pretty Big Things... :)

Does this help, or have I made things worse? :)

Funny, I reacted with "Swords and Planet for the win" the first time I read a summary of Tekumel's history. I mean, isn't it obvious by the different dimensions and relics of a more technologically advanced era?
At the same time, Tekumel is brilliant for allowing Referees more used to fantasy to run it as a fantasy setting. I just don't know why more people aren't playing it!
(It might be because a lot of people are looking for the One Right Way to play Tekumel. But there isn't one, and they get frustrated).
 
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838196
I would agree with this. It's like the way GW marketed their "Warhammer" game series. Businesses are in business to stay in business; in the industry, you do this by selling rules and accessories to people. See also Gary's famous comment: "We have to keep the players from finding out that they don't need the rules..." :)

The freeform RPG players have found it out without much help, it seems.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838201
I should note that I'm breaking these answers up into separate posts to make them a little easier to answer...

After about the first year of play, once we'd gotten away from the Jakalla Underworld 'dungeon crawls', Phil stopped handing out XP; he didn't like doing the book-keeping in a really big way, as he felt that it got in the way of the plot lines. We'd have to keep track of the numbers ourselves, and Phil expected us to be fair about it.

When we'd do something noble and heroic, getting a job done for the Imperium or somebody with pull, we'd get a promotion and some rewards. We could then spend the money on a tutor or something similar, with the idea that we could then 'go up a level'; Phil would have us deduct the costs of the 'classroom work' from our piles of loot, and then we'd have to go back into the rules and do the number-crunching to get the game mechanics taken care of.

(In the game group, this was a handy way to allow for people to drop in and out over time; if you had to take a leave of absence, you were assumed to be off at the Temple academy learning some new spells, or in the army doing a tour of duty with the troops. When you got back, Phil would tell you you'd gone up a level and do the math.)

So, basically we'd work on our skills when we could, and add them up after a couple of months in the game. As an example of this, I taught classes in specialized melee combat to some of the PCs while we were on our various sea journeys - there wasn't much else to do except watch the ocean go by - and so several PCs picked up levels in 'mace' and 'dagger' along the way.

Once we'd done the number-crunching, we'd get on with the adventure. It seemed to have worked fine for us.

Again, am I helping or confusing? :)

Funny, that. I remember a similar advancement mechanic being much reviled. I just can't find links right now, but the really funny part is that the arguments against it seemed to boil down to "depends on the Referee's cooperation" and "isn't traditional" (whatever traditional was supposed to mean).
Life is ironic.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838208
Thank you! I hope I'm helping, here.

This is, I think, why Tekumel is a difficult thing for people to get their heads around - "impenetrable", as one reviewer described it.

We all came out of F/SF fandom at the time, and we 'got' the many references that Phil included in his world - the Grey Lensmen, Barsoom, Conan, and the Lovecraftian mythos. Phil had been very active in fandom in the 1940s and 1950s, and it really showed.

Have a look at "A Princess of Mars"; I think you'll see some fun stuff... :)

Well, the references to Barsoom were what made me interested in Tekumel... I've read John Carter stories long before I got to see an RPG.
Admittedly, I tend to inject more "science" into settings than they're probably meant to. It's due to one of my past groups being the kind of guys who would make experiments for the quotient of energy transfer of magic missiles.
And then they find a way to use that in the game, so I love playing with them.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838224
I believe you are right - it'd be in the historical introduction section in EPT. Phil also expanded on this in S&G I, too.

Yep, those three features are Tekumel's unique 'signature items'. In the context of the fantasy literature of the time, they were really odd; in the context of space opera or sword and planet, they're kinda par for the course... :)

Interesting enough, Reimond Feist's stories feature an invasion from a clan-based world with no steel and no riding animals, situated in another dimension...

Quote from: Bren;838265
In H+I my players always want to get their XP at the end of the session, but they are usually too tired to figure out what they want to do with it until the beginning of the next session. So we handle increases before the start of the session.

As the GM, I feel almost the reverse. I'm often tired at the end of the session and would rather wait to give out XP (which feels like work for me as the GM) or if I am giving out XP, I'd rather figure out what to do with the XP right away so I know what they have improved before the next session.

I've achieved a compromise with them.
"How much did we gain?"
"I'll tell you over Skype".
We always have a Skype group.
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838292
First, we were all *educated* people; we all had very good educations through our temples and positions, and so we 'knew' things right off the mark. Phil didn't worry about this in the game - he assumed that we'd pick this stuff up as we got our education. 'Ordinary' 'lay people', on the other hand, didn't know and didn't care as it was completely outside their lives. They were generally much more interested in the daily and seasonal round of their lives, and we learned not to interfere with that very quickly.

"Well, yes, Lord. that' a really nice Eye thing you have there. Won't get the crops in the ground, though."

Secondly, the time spans in Tekumel are and have always been a sticking point for gamers. Most gamers, in my personal experience, have no sense of history or of the passage of time. Everything is 'right now'. Back when Phil was in F/SF fandom, in the late 1940s and early 1950s, 'eternal engines' and such were very common. In a modern sense, this technology is both sentient and self-repairing - we had all sorts of run ins with the self-aware machines that run the south polar station, for example.

Two samples: Phil once regaled us with his 'dungeon crawl' in real life, where he spent a day wandering through the Red Fort in Dehli. He got lost in all the casemates and buried chambers, and kept tripping over people's trash and abandoned stuff - from the 1700s! This stuff had been dropped and left behind literally two centuries before he's stumbled across it, and it looked like it had just been left there a moment ago. Phil always kept that with him, and passed it along to us.

Another example is that Phil created Tekumel before DNA had been discovered. The Lords of Humanspace didn't use DNA to create their life forms; instead they bred them or cooked them in in the 'life vats' so familiar to readers of pulp fiction. The tall and powerful Nylss warriors, for instance, are the descendants of the original garrison of Space Marines of Tekumel; the Nom are another variety of humans that were bred to be the deckhands of the starships.

The Plain of Towers is the ancient landing field where a number of starships are still sitting. Some still work, as they do have self-repair capability - ask Old Geezer about the trash collector machines, or my players about the matter-converters that the trash collectors 'feed'. Nobody knows how this stuff works; all we know is that sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't. If we're really, really lucky, we can sometimes meet up with the ancient guardians of these technological items, and get some advice on what not to do.

I'll bite.
Tell us, oh Old Geezer, about trash collector machines, and the matter-converters!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 27, 2015, 05:32:10 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;838375
I've achieved a compromise with them.
"How much did we gain?"
"I'll tell you over Skype".
We always have a Skype group.
To which my players would respond, "We're on Skype now. Tell us now." Ours is a Skype group. :)

Of course I could email them later, but they seem to really enjoy knowing right away. So I indulge them so they can have their fun.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 27, 2015, 06:28:28 PM
Quote from: Bren;838378
To which my players would respond, "We're on Skype now. Tell us now." Ours is a Skype group. :)

Of course I could email them later, but they seem to really enjoy knowing right away. So I indulge them so they can have their fun.


Would "I'll tell you over ICQ later" change anything:)?

Well, whatever works for your group. Obviously, different approaches might work better or worse with different people, but we share what we do just in case there's something someone else can use;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 27, 2015, 06:33:58 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;838384
Would "I'll tell you over ICQ later" change anything:)?
Probably not, except I'd have to look up ICQ.

Quote
Well, whatever works for your group. Obviously, different approaches might work better or worse with different people, but we share what we do just in case there's something someone else can use;).
I took it in that context.

I like the increase system for Runequest/BRP the best since stuff gets earned and tracked (i.e. checked) as you play so there is nothing for the GM to catch up on or do at the end of the session. The increases are always modest so, except in the rare cases when someone masters a new skill, the GM really doesn't need to know whether or not the skill improved when planning activity for the next session. The combination of these things means it doesn't matter if the players roll at the end or the beginning of a session.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 27, 2015, 07:59:48 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;838375
Deputy Governor office makes it all different, doesn't it?
I was assuming a low-level official, whose only options would be to destroy the document or follow it.


Um, actually the lower or middle level official would most likely pass the warrant 'upstairs' to the Governor's office for action; this kind of international intrigue is way above most officials, and they'd try to get rid of the 'hot potato' as fast as they could so as to avoid any blame or responsibility.

Unfortunately, this sort of thing usually would wind up on my desk for me to deal with...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 27, 2015, 08:04:41 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;838375
And in what concerns my players, I must preface that with an explanation. At least some of them are exactly those that have as major influence anime, comics, and CRPGs. At least some of them, often the same people, also recognize older SF works if I throw a reference.
Still, when some of them were starting, their major influence was CRPGs, including MMORPGs. Metagaming was rampant, communicating with NPCs wasn't the easiest task.
It was made easier by the fact that I had a whole group like that, with only a couple more experienced players, including my wife and myself. They didn't feel like someone was doing much better, and had an example.
Still, I had to make them stop metagaming (which would have been fine if we were playing the kind of game where you have author's view over the events... but we were playing a variation of the One-Roll Engine, and that's a traditional game).
So, what did I do? I told them the truth.
"You can meta-game or not. I'm going to act like you're not, even if you tell me otherwise. The trick is, my NPCs react to what you were doing 0 you've noticed it already - and are never going to get the message that you "just metagamed". As far as they're concerned, you screw them over to protect the interests of some dubious types...meaning that you're not to be trusted and they can screw you back even if they were indebted to you before. Or you're just behaving strangely for no obvious reasons, meaning you're not to be trusted. In short, your best option is to treat the world as a real, living, breathing world, consisting of living, breathing characters...because I'm doing my best to ensure it's true, and you'll need lots of time before you can even spot my mistakes.
Or you can choose to disregard this warning, and metagame to your heart's content. Like the warning that characters can die or be maimed, and there's no resurrection spells, while healing them back is a one-off deal... it's a warning you'll only get once."
Then I went and did what I warned them about. "Just play the NPCs" is the summary of my style of GMing anyway (which I call Lazy GMing). I couldn't run it otherwise even if I wanted - not without switching my GMing style mid-campaign, which I'm loathe to do.
And then, of course, it was rampant metagaming time. Then they noticed the results were exactly as I told them.
The rest was just playing the game, as they say.


Fascinating! Utterly fascinating to me! This is exactly the kind of thing we'd run into - the NPCs we met all had their own opinions on who we were and what we were doing. Phil would roll for their reactions initially, and then he'd make notes on their cards and use that as the basis for future interactions with them. We learned likewise what the limits were in our world - we figured out very quickly that we were not at the top of the food chain; there were creatures that would like to hunt us.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 27, 2015, 08:08:05 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;838375

I think my players would love that.
But does that mean that carefully disassembling an Eye can teach you more magic?
(I'm asking because I'm thinking of a game that does more or less exactly this - Sorcerers of Ur-Turuk)!


No, it does not. We had no idea how the Eyes worked; we'd very occasionally run into some mage who did - or so they claimed! - but there were a lot of people who got blown up trying to disassemble Eyes.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 27, 2015, 08:11:45 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;838375

Funny, I reacted with "Swords and Planet for the win" the first time I read a summary of Tekumel's history. I mean, isn't it obvious by the different dimensions and relics of a more technologically advanced era?
At the same time, Tekumel is brilliant for allowing Referees more used to fantasy to run it as a fantasy setting. I just don't know why more people aren't playing it!
(It might be because a lot of people are looking for the One Right Way to play Tekumel. But there isn't one, and they get frustrated).


Good for you - you found it out, and that's really cool. In my experience, most gamers have never read any Sword and Planet stuff - quite a few have never heard of Fafherd and the Grey Mouser. And I agree with you - there is no one right way to play Tekumel, I think. As Phil himself said, "here's my world, now make it your own."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 27, 2015, 08:15:45 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;838375

Funny, that. I remember a similar advancement mechanic being much reviled. I just can't find links right now, but the really funny part is that the arguments against it seemed to boil down to "depends on the Referee's cooperation" and "isn't traditional" (whatever traditional was supposed to mean).
Life is ironic.


Wow. Not that I'm surprised, as our tradition in games was to use miniatures on the table for both tactical games and as tactical displays; I've been told that real RPGs don't use miniatures because Gary Said So. Ah, right; what are all those 40mm Elastolins doing, then? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 27, 2015, 08:20:49 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;838375

Interesting enough, Reimond Feist's stories feature an invasion from a clan-based world with no steel and no riding animals, situated in another dimension...


Kelewan is Tekumel, actually. Ray was in a D&D campaign out on the West Coast when his GM opened the rift between the worlds and used EPT as the model for the alien world. When Ray came to write his books, he contacted TSR for permission, and they were happy to grant it to him as they'd fallen out with Phil. I talked to Ray years later, and he was Not Amused to find out that TSR had given him incorrect information.

(This has been a scandal in the publishing trade for years, and a very sore point with a lot of folks on either side of the fence.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 27, 2015, 11:42:01 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838401
Wow. Not that I'm surprised, as our tradition in games was to use miniatures on the table for both tactical games and as tactical displays; I've been told that real RPGs don't use miniatures because Gary Said So. Ah, right; what are all those 40mm Elastolins doing, then? :)


Shrug.  By the time Gary was running Greyhawk the Elastolins were across town in Don Kaye's garage.

I don't know if Gary would have used them if they'd been handy, but I can state that in the 1972-1975 period Gary never, ever used miniatures while running Greyhawk.

Which proves nothing other than that he didn't use miniatures and Dave did.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 27, 2015, 11:45:10 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838292
ask Old Geezer about the trash collector machines,


Aiieee!   Aiieee!  Aiieee!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 27, 2015, 11:54:17 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;838375
I can devote it to resolving everything...or I can use a proto-wargame/boardgame for the domain stuff, Stress Meters for the reactions of NPCs and PCs alike under stress, and a combat system in case of, well, combat. Possibly a different system for spellcasting and research, too.  (And of course, I can always choose not to bother, if the result is obvious). All of this would be almost the opposite of Frei Kriegspiel, right?


Nope.

In Free Kriegspiel the referee can use any number of charts, graphs, dice, tables, sines, cosines, tangents, knives, forks, and spoons of energy he or she desires.

The difference is that the referee is the final arbiter.  Somebody rolled an instant kill, either player or NPC?  The referee is completely within their purview to overrule the dice and say "No."

However, the wise referee does this judiciously.  Now, in original Free Kriegspiel, and in Braunstein, Blackmoor, and Greyhawk, only the umpire had access to the rules.  We knew that a guy who was nekkid was easier to kill than a guy in plate armor, but we had no idea of what the mechanics were.

That's not the case now, so the referee needs to be more open about it if the players know the rules.  However, a good instance was a game of "DBA" (a miniatures wargame) I played.  The dice said that a group of light infantry, charged by an equal number of plate armored knights on armored  horses, routed the knights with almost no losses.  Now, based on a pretty good knowledge of the medieval period I'd have no trouble as referee saying "That could not, did not, and will not ever happen, period."

To summarize, the rules are to support and help the Free Kriegspiel referee, not to tell them what to do.  So your example is absolutely not out of line with Free Kriegspiel in the slightest.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 28, 2015, 04:25:06 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838419
Aiieee!   Aiieee!  Aiieee!
I sense a fun story!
Once again I conjure thee, Old Geezer, Tell Us What Happened!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838400
Good for you - you found it out, and that's really cool. In my experience, most gamers have never read any Sword and Planet stuff - quite a few have never heard of Fafherd and the Grey Mouser. And I agree with you - there is no one right way to play Tekumel, I think. As Phil himself said, "here's my world, now make it your own."
Well, "campaigns on an alien planet" is part of the sub-title of EPT. I think Mr. Barker wanted to point us in the right direction:)!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838401
Wow. Not that I'm surprised, as our tradition in games was to use miniatures on the table for both tactical games and as tactical displays; I've been told that real RPGs don't use miniatures because Gary Said So. Ah, right; what are all those 40mm Elastolins doing, then? :)
Yeah, and in turn, I'm not really surprised, either;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838404
Kelewan is Tekumel, actually. Ray was in a D&D campaign out on the West Coast when his GM opened the rift between the worlds and used EPT as the model for the alien world. When Ray came to write his books, he contacted TSR for permission, and they were happy to grant it to him as they'd fallen out with Phil. I talked to Ray years later, and he was Not Amused to find out that TSR had given him incorrect information.

(This has been a scandal in the publishing trade for years, and a very sore point with a lot of folks on either side of the fence.)
Kelewan is Tekumel?
Ok, now I know how to get some people interested in Tekumel:D!

Do you also happen to know how close the events in Mr. Feist's books follow the events in that campaign?

Quote from: Old Geezer;838420
Nope.

In Free Kriegspiel the referee can use any number of charts, graphs, dice, tables, sines, cosines, tangents, knives, forks, and spoons of energy he or she desires.

The difference is that the referee is the final arbiter.  Somebody rolled an instant kill, either player or NPC?  The referee is completely within their purview to overrule the dice and say "No."

However, the wise referee does this judiciously.  Now, in original Free Kriegspiel, and in Braunstein, Blackmoor, and Greyhawk, only the umpire had access to the rules.  We knew that a guy who was nekkid was easier to kill than a guy in plate armor, but we had no idea of what the mechanics were.

That's not the case now, so the referee needs to be more open about it if the players know the rules.  However, a good instance was a game of "DBA" (a miniatures wargame) I played.  The dice said that a group of light infantry, charged by an equal number of plate armored knights on armored  horses, routed the knights with almost no losses.  Now, based on a pretty good knowledge of the medieval period I'd have no trouble as referee saying "That could not, did not, and will not ever happen, period."

To summarize, the rules are to support and help the Free Kriegspiel referee, not to tell them what to do.  So your example is absolutely not out of line with Free Kriegspiel in the slightest.
That's exactly it. Under my example, you don't need rules that expect the Ref to be the final arbiter - if they do, he still has to consider whether what happened is within his ideas of likely.
Personally, I wouldn't forbid even the knights being routed, if the probability of such an event is small enough it's unlikely to happen ever again. Who knows all that might happen in a fight?
I don't pretend to know it all - or rather, for all I know, everything is possible - so the dice are as good as anything else. And better to be limited by dice than by the information the GM has, given that many, many GMs simply don't have nearly enough information. Often, the people that wrote the rules have put more research into coming with specifics.

Of course, from the players' perspective it's the same, Frei Kriegspiel or not, as long as the GM is good. You tell your plan, point out what are the advantages, and the Referee rolls some dice and tells you what happens. Given that half my group doesn't even want to learn the rules, I could as well run Frei Kriegspiel if I wanted!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 28, 2015, 05:27:07 PM
In a historical game, "the dice are the dice" is not a rule I personally will abide.  Light foot are not going to stop and rout heavy charging cavalry, period, just like somebody's not going to make a Tiger Tank explode by stabbing it with a bayonet in a historical WW2 game.

Sometimes the dice need to be ignored.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 28, 2015, 05:34:30 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838521
In a historical game, "the dice are the dice" is not a rule I personally will abide.  Light foot are not going to stop and rout heavy charging cavalry, period, just like somebody's not going to make a Tiger Tank explode by stabbing it with a bayonet in a historical WW2 game.

Sometimes the dice need to be ignored.
A WW2 game that includes a die result of Bayonet vs Tiger Tank = Killed Tiger is stupid rules design. If you see light foot routing heavy charging cavalry as the same magnitude of stupid yet your rules include that as a result in the combat table why not, oh I don't know, fix the bad rule?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bilharzia on June 28, 2015, 06:04:53 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838521
In a historical game, "the dice are the dice" is not a rule I personally will abide.  Light foot are not going to stop and rout heavy charging cavalry, period, just like somebody's not going to make a Tiger Tank explode by stabbing it with a bayonet in a historical WW2 game.

Sometimes the dice need to be ignored.


Quote from: Bren;838523
A WW2 game that includes a die result of Bayonet vs Tiger Tank = Killed Tiger is stupid rules design. If you see light foot routing heavy charging cavalry as the same magnitude of stupid yet your rules include that as a result in the combat table why not, oh I don't know, fix the bad rule?


Perfectly possible as long as the bayoneter is wearing socks.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 28, 2015, 06:55:13 PM
Quote from: Bilharzia;838530
Perfectly possible as long as the bayoneter is wearing socks.

You kind of lost me there. Plug the engine air intakes?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bilharzia on June 28, 2015, 07:14:36 PM
Quote from: Bren;838536
You kind of lost me there. Plug the engine air intakes?


Surrender your socks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoUb7jiFj5Q)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 28, 2015, 08:06:43 PM
Quote from: Bilharzia;838538
Surrender your socks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoUb7jiFj5Q)
Ahhh...still it requires more than just socks and a bayonet. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 28, 2015, 08:26:21 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838521
In a historical game, "the dice are the dice" is not a rule I personally will abide.  Light foot are not going to stop and rout heavy charging cavalry, period, just like somebody's not going to make a Tiger Tank explode by stabbing it with a bayonet in a historical WW2 game.

Sometimes the dice need to be ignored.

Clarification required. Do they stop being light foot if you outfit them with pikes:)?
And my approach would also be that if the system outputs stuff that can't happen, I need to fix the system;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on June 28, 2015, 09:05:52 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838521
In a historical game, "the dice are the dice" is not a rule I personally will abide.  Light foot are not going to stop and rout heavy charging cavalry, period,,,,

No trenches?
No female nudity?
No superstition?
No fire?
...
It's an RPG, people get creative.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 28, 2015, 10:19:42 PM
Quote from: Bren;838523
A WW2 game that includes a die result of Bayonet vs Tiger Tank = Killed Tiger is stupid rules design. If you see light foot routing heavy charging cavalry as the same magnitude of stupid yet your rules include that as a result in the combat table why not, oh I don't know, fix the bad rule?


Actually, my solution is to never play that game again.  There are plenty of rules sets around.

I agree it's shit rules design, but the game is inexplicably popular in some quarters.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: IceBlinkLuck on June 28, 2015, 10:42:53 PM
So, I've run Tekumel off and on for a couple of decades now. I started with the TSR version and then moved on to Swords and Glory, Tri-stat and now I've picked up Bethorm and I'm getting the itch to run again.

One of the few things that has bugged me about Tekumel is how piece-meal all of the GM information is. We get a new system every few years, but we never get much in the way of the 'workings' of the setting. Looking for anything usually requires chasing down out of print books or scouting strange bywaters of the internet.

An excellent example in this thread alone: I never knew until now that the Nluss and Nom were artificially bred species. I assumed they were simply genetic variations which bred true over time as their populations were relatively isolated. This casts a whole new light on both of those people.

I think what I'm getting at is that it's very frustrating to see glimpses of the world-building but to never get any of it simply stated.

So what I'm wondering is if there's any plan to make any of that available. Will some of it be talked about in your book perhaps. Full disclosure: I already plan to purchase it, but this would make it so much more fun to read. I wouldn't want every big question answered, just some. Just enough that I can feel as if I know a little more than what my players know when I hand them the old S&G cultures sourcebook.

Anyway, I really hope I don't sound like I'm whining, I've enjoyed reading this thread immensely and I look forward to reading more of what you have to say.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 28, 2015, 11:03:50 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838418
Shrug.  By the time Gary was running Greyhawk the Elastolins were across town in Don Kaye's garage.

I don't know if Gary would have used them if they'd been handy, but I can state that in the 1972-1975 period Gary never, ever used miniatures while running Greyhawk.

Which proves nothing other than that he didn't use miniatures and Dave did.


Agreed. When I was playing a bit with Gary (after the stockholder meetings, which is when I got to know him) he wasn't using miniatures in his RPG games.

What I'm on about are the people - the on-line High Priests of the Great God Gygax - to take an off-hand comment by Gary in a Dragon article that MINIATURES ARE NOT TO BE USED. I'm continually bemused by the 'rabbinical scholars' who pour over every obscure letter or article by either Dave or Gary to try and determine The Right Way To Game - hence my comments about the 'mythology of gaming'. I wish I had a dollar for all the times I've been told just how Phil MUST have gamed Tekumel from people who hadn''t been born when you and I started playing in the old coot's games.

(Satire Warning: Wait!!! Phil Barker is the Egg of Coot!!! See - Chirine used the Sacred Word in his comment, so it must be so!!! Etc., etc., etc.)

And before anyone gets bent about my comment about 'rabbinical scholars', I get this metaphor from my cousin, who is one. He's bemused by the 'hair-splitting' he sees in RPG forums - it's much more intricate then what he and his colleagues do in their studies, he says...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 28, 2015, 11:04:50 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838419
Aiieee!   Aiieee!  Aiieee!


Oh, go on - you know you want to. I don't want to step on your lines, Glorious General. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 28, 2015, 11:06:18 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838420
Nope.

In Free Kriegspiel the referee can use any number of charts, graphs, dice, tables, sines, cosines, tangents, knives, forks, and spoons of energy he or she desires.

The difference is that the referee is the final arbiter.  Somebody rolled an instant kill, either player or NPC?  The referee is completely within their purview to overrule the dice and say "No."

However, the wise referee does this judiciously.  Now, in original Free Kriegspiel, and in Braunstein, Blackmoor, and Greyhawk, only the umpire had access to the rules.  We knew that a guy who was nekkid was easier to kill than a guy in plate armor, but we had no idea of what the mechanics were.

That's not the case now, so the referee needs to be more open about it if the players know the rules.  However, a good instance was a game of "DBA" (a miniatures wargame) I played.  The dice said that a group of light infantry, charged by an equal number of plate armored knights on armored  horses, routed the knights with almost no losses.  Now, based on a pretty good knowledge of the medieval period I'd have no trouble as referee saying "That could not, did not, and will not ever happen, period."

To summarize, the rules are to support and help the Free Kriegspiel referee, not to tell them what to do.  So your example is absolutely not out of line with Free Kriegspiel in the slightest.


Agreed. This is what we did all the time when we played. Seemed to work for us... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 28, 2015, 11:09:12 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;838448

Kelewan is Tekumel?
Ok, now I know how to get some people interested in Tekumel:D!

Do you also happen to know how close the events in Mr. Feist's books follow the events in that campaign?


From what he told me, the earlier books are very, very much 'campaign reports'; the later / latest ones are extrapolations from the events of the campaign.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 28, 2015, 11:15:18 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838521
In a historical game, "the dice are the dice" is not a rule I personally will abide.  Light foot are not going to stop and rout heavy charging cavalry, period, just like somebody's not going to make a Tiger Tank explode by stabbing it with a bayonet in a historical WW2 game.

Sometimes the dice need to be ignored.


Agreed!

Except in "Panzer Pranks", by Lortz and Lortz. Any resemblance between that game and WWII is purely a coincidence, but WOW! is it fun to play. The Americans fight as fanatics to defend Coke machines, the British will stop operations for afternoon tea, the Russians use vodka to fuel their tanks, and the German's most deadly weapon is the Goulashkanone.

It is, as far as I know, the only game where the Combat Results Table has modifiers for the 'shooty' and 'explody' noises being made by the player.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 28, 2015, 11:22:48 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;838540
Clarification required. Do they stop being light foot if you outfit them with pikes:)?
And my approach would also be that if the system outputs stuff that can't happen, I need to fix the system;).


The light infantry stops being light infantry when you give them the pikes. In most games, they become mediums or heavies, depending on other factors. Usually, light infantry are skirmishers, fighting in open order - or no order! - and tend to be able to outrun or avoid heavy cavalry; the heavy horse just can't move quickly or nimbly enough to catch the pesky sods. Which is why one has light or even medium horse; that's what they're for.

Pikes require a close-order formation to be effective; it makes them a lot slower and less flexible, and you lose the advantages in mobility.

And, yes, I do think you're right - and I'd have caught it in playtest, too. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 28, 2015, 11:32:27 PM
Quote from: Bilharzia;838538
Surrender your socks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoUb7jiFj5Q)


He, hee! The triumph of optimism over reality. Yes, the sticky grenade does work - six known kills in North Africa for the 250,000 made is better then nothing.

I am reminded of the time Gary Rudolph was facing some Undead out at Phil's; he wanted to use the tried-and-true method for dealing with mummies with the flask of oil and the torch routine. Phil was very, very dubious, so he got some glass flasks - candle molds, he told me - and filled them with water and threw that a one of the trees in his back yard. He then too a stick, painted one end red - to represent the burning end - and repeated the series of throws. From this, he came up with a table detailing how likely one was to his the target with the flask of oil, the chance of the flask breaking, and then the chance of the torch hitting the patch of oil.

He also came up with a table for the flask breaking in the player's pouch, so Gary came up with an elaborate backpack for a bearer-slave to carry that had racks for the flasks and sawdust for packing. All very elaborate, and as might be expected it all went horribly wrong the first time out...

I laughed so hard I cried, when this whole sad tale was related to me... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 28, 2015, 11:33:43 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;838545
No trenches?
No female nudity?
No superstition?
No fire?
...
It's an RPG, people get creative.
=


No. You need to be playing D&D for that, not WRG/DBA/DBX... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 28, 2015, 11:43:34 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838548
Actually, my solution is to never play that game again.  There are plenty of rules sets around.

I agree it's shit rules design, but the game is inexplicably popular in some quarters.


It all goes back to WRG, by the same author, and the British fondness for tournament play. The series of WRG/DBA/DBX rules get more and more abstract as they go along, and become more like board games then they do what you and I would consider 'miniatures' games. 'Free Kriegspiel' is a very dirty term amongst the fans of the series, from what I've seen.

They - the Historical Miniatures Gaming Society, especially - used to tout the series as being the most historically accurate sets of rules in the universe. I felt differently, especially after the Origins in Baltimore that we went to in the very early 1980s where the HMGS was running The National Tournament for historical miniatures. In the WRG/etc series, the battlefield terrain is chosen by the players, usually three features each, and placed on the opposing player's side of the table. In the final battle of the tournament, each player picked three 'swamp' terrain pieces, and gleefully place them on their opponent's side of the table.

Me, I started laughing my fool head off, much to the annoyance of the 'serious wargamers'; the game instantly stalemated, as one player had a Chinese Warring States Chariot army, and his esteemed opponent had a late medieval army of French Gen d'armes super-heavy cavalry...

You'd have laughed your head off, too... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2015, 12:10:07 AM
Quote from: IceBlinkLuck;838549
So, I've run Tekumel off and on for a couple of decades now. I started with the TSR version and then moved on to Swords and Glory, Tri-stat and now I've picked up Bethorm and I'm getting the itch to run again.

One of the few things that has bugged me about Tekumel is how piece-meal all of the GM information is. We get a new system every few years, but we never get much in the way of the 'workings' of the setting. Looking for anything usually requires chasing down out of print books or scouting strange bywaters of the internet.

An excellent example in this thread alone: I never knew until now that the Nluss and Nom were artificially bred species. I assumed they were simply genetic variations which bred true over time as their populations were relatively isolated. This casts a whole new light on both of those people.

I think what I'm getting at is that it's very frustrating to see glimpses of the world-building but to never get any of it simply stated.

So what I'm wondering is if there's any plan to make any of that available. Will some of it be talked about in your book perhaps. Full disclosure: I already plan to purchase it, but this would make it so much more fun to read. I wouldn't want every big question answered, just some. Just enough that I can feel as if I know a little more than what my players know when I hand them the old S&G cultures sourcebook.

Anyway, I really hope I don't sound like I'm whining, I've enjoyed reading this thread immensely and I look forward to reading more of what you have to say.


Thank you for your wonderful comments!!!

I agree with you entirely - this same issue has been driving me crazy for decades.

Phil never really understood or grasped the notion that GMs needed to be given more information with which to run games - he simply did it off the cuff, like Arneson did, and then went back and took notes for later. I kept after him for the better part of a decade to write some introductory stuff, but never would - he just wasn't interested.

And I think I am part of the problem, too. I read at about 2,000 words a minute, with a measured 95% comprehension and retention, so when I run Tekumel I simply draw on all of the material that I've read and collected over the years. When I started with Phil, I soon became his informal archivist; anything generated in the game sessions, Phil would keep the original and I'd get a photocopy - this is where my huge archive come from, as well as what's in my head. I have what's been called an 'eidetic memory', they tell me, and I can remember the slightest details on things - I think this comes from my model-building, maybe.

Speaking from my perspective as one o Phil's many, many publishers over the years, it does bother me that there has never been a really comprehensive look at Tekumel ever done. Sadly, Phil would get bored pretty easliy with the writing/publishing process, and as a result a lot of the extant literature is made up of half-finished works.

Sore, I'd love to see all of Phil's work edited/organized/collated and published, but that's not something that is going to happen under the terms of the Tekumel Foundation's "exclusive license for the commercial exploitation of the Tekumel IP" any time soon. I worked for them for a couple of years as the formal archivist for Tekumel, and wound up quitting over this very issue; I am, and have always been, a 'populist' who feels that all of Phil's work should be published; I am not an 'elitist', who believes that Tekumel is the preserve of the perceived OSR elite and publication needs are to be driven by the needs of 'prestige' and 'position'. As far as I know, from my dealings with them, the Foundation has no really solid plans to publish much more then the back list of the books and such.

Which, given their situation, is not very surprising. They have no people, no resources, and no money to work with; all of the various projects I've been involved with with them have taken four to five years or more to accomplish, of they've been done by 'outside people' who are willing to invest their own money and man-hours on Tekumel.

My book, for example, will be all about how we gamed with Phil and what we learned along the way in some fifteen years of gaming with him. It will not be an 'official Tekumel' work, as I will be publishing the thing as a free down-load - fan fiction, if you like. Have a look at the published publications policies on the Foundation's website, and you'll see why.

Sadly, I have been asked publish the book by somebody with real money, with full-color covers and lost of artwork. I've told then that they need to talk to the Foundation in order to be able to do this, and that's been the last I've heard of anything. I plan on finishing the book; I'm up to 108,000 words, and expecting to go to 300,000 in six volumes. I'll keep plugging away, bit for now all you'll be able to get from me are threads like this and my little blog.

If you want to see more Tekumel being published, talk to the Foundation - they have the rights to the IP, and they guard them very carefully. I am, as they have told me, "just another fan".

Ask more questions; I'll tell you what I can.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 29, 2015, 12:12:10 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838555
Oh, go on - you know you want to. I don't want to step on your lines, Glorious General. :)


Honestly, all I remember is running like hell with these giant omnivorous machines chasing us.  Didn't they use the materials they cleaned up for power?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 29, 2015, 12:18:59 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838554
Agreed. When I was playing a bit with Gary (after the stockholder meetings, which is when I got to know him) he wasn't using miniatures in his RPG games.

What I'm on about are the people - the on-line High Priests of the Great God Gygax - to take an off-hand comment by Gary in a Dragon article that MINIATURES ARE NOT TO BE USED. I'm continually bemused by the 'rabbinical scholars' who pour over every obscure letter or article by either Dave or Gary to try and determine The Right Way To Game - hence my comments about the 'mythology of gaming'. I wish I had a dollar for all the times I've been told just how Phil MUST have gamed Tekumel from people who hadn''t been born when you and I started playing in the old coot's games.

(Satire Warning: Wait!!! Phil Barker is the Egg of Coot!!! See - Chirine used the Sacred Word in his comment, so it must be so!!! Etc., etc., etc.)

And before anyone gets bent about my comment about 'rabbinical scholars', I get this metaphor from my cousin, who is one. He's bemused by the 'hair-splitting' he sees in RPG forums - it's much more intricate then what he and his colleagues do in their studies, he says...


I agree completely.  I often use the phrase "we made up some shit we thought would be fun."  I've gotten some heat for it, but the simple fact of the matter is, there mostly wasn't any deeper thought to it.  "Sounds like it could be fun" was about it.  Why did Dave Arneson let Dave Fant play Sir Fang after Baron Fant was killed by a vampire?  "Sounds like fun.  We'll figure out the exact rules later."  Why did Gary change undead from temporarily draining to permanently?  "Sounds like fun."  And we all thought so too.  Yeah, it makes undead more nasty, but that makes the game more challenging.

We just didn't endlessly hash over this stuff, even in 72-73 when Gary was typing up Dave's notes and whipping up his own variations.

I suspect PART of this is because it wasn't all we were doing; we were also playing board games ranging from chess to Risk to Afrka Korps, and playing miniatures in every period imaginable.  "Greyhawk" was just one of the games we played, just like Dave's "Corner of the Table Top" newsletter shows that other games continued running simultaneously with "Blackmoor."

And I'm amused by your 'rabbinical scholar' comment because I've used the phrase "like a bunch of neophyte scholars doing midrash" myself on numerous occasions.

Great minds, etc.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 29, 2015, 12:22:07 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838564
He, hee! The triumph of optimism over reality. Yes, the sticky grenade does work - six known kills in North Africa for the 250,000 made is better then nothing.

I am reminded of the time Gary Rudolph was facing some Undead out at Phil's; he wanted to use the tried-and-true method for dealing with mummies with the flask of oil and the torch routine. Phil was very, very dubious, so he got some glass flasks - candle molds, he told me - and filled them with water and threw that a one of the trees in his back yard. He then too a stick, painted one end red - to represent the burning end - and repeated the series of throws. From this, he came up with a table detailing how likely one was to his the target with the flask of oil, the chance of the flask breaking, and then the chance of the torch hitting the patch of oil.

He also came up with a table for the flask breaking in the player's pouch, so Gary came up with an elaborate backpack for a bearer-slave to carry that had racks for the flasks and sawdust for packing. All very elaborate, and as might be expected it all went horribly wrong the first time out...

I laughed so hard I cried, when this whole sad tale was related to me... :)


I remember this.  That's about the time that I decided to carry lanterns for 10 Khaitars instead of a torch for one and a pot of oil for one; a lantern gives you fire and oil together in one easy-to-throw package, and it even has a handle for your safety and convenience.  "Burning end towards enemy."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2015, 12:24:45 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838573
Honestly, all I remember is running like hell with these giant omnivorous machines chasing us.  Didn't they use the materials they cleaned up for power?


Well, all right, then. Here we go...

So the players are wandering around some long-buried installation of the Ancients, when this huge machine starts following them around. They've been playing with Phil long enough to figure out that Everything Is Out To Get Them, so they assume that this is some sort of robot sentinel. They avoid the thing doe as long as they can, but it finally catches up to them. Melee occurs, and they find that their puny swords and such have no effect on the machine - spells are equally ineffective, and things are looking pretty grim when a giant mechanical arm comes out of the top of the machine, grapples a player around the middle - Craig Smith, I think - hoists him up over the top of the machine and begins to shake him vigorously while he's upside down. All of his stuff gets shaken loose, and it falls into a big hopper on the back of the machine. After the stuff stops falling off of him, the machine sets him back down and rolls away from the party.

They follow it, hoping to get Craig's stuff back. The machine rolls to a collection station, the hopper tilts back into the chute, and all of Graig's stuff gets dumped into the new machine. It goes into the chute, a transparent shield closes, there's a hum of machinery, the stuff vanishes, and the lights come on.

The players, all SF fans, realize that they've been 'collected' by the trash collection machine, and the 'trash' has been dumped into the matter-converter to be recycled as energy for the complex.

Ask my players about their encounters with the Ru'umbas, the little machines that clean the floors in the ancient Space Marine bases... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2015, 12:27:35 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838576
I agree completely.  I often use the phrase "we made up some shit we thought would be fun."  I've gotten some heat for it, but the simple fact of the matter is, there mostly wasn't any deeper thought to it.  "Sounds like it could be fun" was about it.  Why did Dave Arneson let Dave Fant play Sir Fang after Baron Fant was killed by a vampire?  "Sounds like fun.  We'll figure out the exact rules later."  Why did Gary change undead from temporarily draining to permanently?  "Sounds like fun."  And we all thought so too.  Yeah, it makes undead more nasty, but that makes the game more challenging.

We just didn't endlessly hash over this stuff, even in 72-73 when Gary was typing up Dave's notes and whipping up his own variations.

I suspect PART of this is because it wasn't all we were doing; we were also playing board games ranging from chess to Risk to Afrka Korps, and playing miniatures in every period imaginable.  "Greyhawk" was just one of the games we played, just like Dave's "Corner of the Table Top" newsletter shows that other games continued running simultaneously with "Blackmoor."

And I'm amused by your 'rabbinical scholar' comment because I've used the phrase "like a bunch of neophyte scholars doing midrash" myself on numerous occasions.

Great minds, etc.


Agreed - there's a lot of 'over-thinking' when the Big Three are being discussed, I think. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2015, 12:32:45 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838577
I remember this.  That's about the time that I decided to carry lanterns for 10 Khaitars instead of a torch for one and a pot of oil for one; a lantern gives you fire and oil together in one easy-to-throw package, and it even has a handle for your safety and convenience.  "Burning end towards enemy."


I still have your lantern, Glorious General, from your Adventure Of The Quest For The Sarcophagus Of The Ancient Pot Roast; it's been joined by a lot of other lamps in my adventurers' kit, over the years - IKEA, your best source for Tekumel gaming supplies!

Tell our audience about your adventure in my house - they might find it illuminating!!!

(Sorry. Just couldn't pass that one up...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 29, 2015, 12:33:10 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838572

Phil never really understood or grasped the notion that GMs needed to be given more information with which to run games - he simply did it off the cuff, like Arneson did, and then went back and took notes for later. I kept after him for the better part of a decade to write some introductory stuff, but never would - he just wasn't interested.


Very true.  And Phil was a smart, smart cookie and very thoroughly educated.  His head was just plain full of stuff that a typical college age gamer... or later, a high school age gamer... just doesn't have in his or her head.  I once razzed him about something... I think perhaps discovering that "Sacbe" is a Mayan word for a raised roadway.  In a rare moment of candor (usually if you pulled Phil's leg he'd pull yours back) he said "after this many years I don't even remember where I heard things any more."  Now that I've hit 60 myself, I know what he means in a way my 20 year old self didn't.

And Phil was an academic through and through, from the top of his shiny little bald head to his fuzzy little toes.  He was interested in what's NEW about Tekumel (or anything else), not rehashing what he thought was a sufficient introduction when he wrote the original EPT back in late 74.  I think that may be why he had so many half-finished pieces of Tekumel.  He used to quote frequently the old academic aphorism of "publish or perish," and I think part of what Tekumel recreation for him was that when he got tired of a project he could set it aside.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838572
And I think I am part of the problem, too. I read at about 2,000 words a minute, with a measured 95% comprehension and retention, so when I run Tekumel I simply draw on all of the material that I've read and collected over the years. When I started with Phil, I soon became his informal archivist; anything generated in the game sessions, Phil would keep the original and I'd get a photocopy - this is where my huge archive come from, as well as what's in my head. I have what's been called an 'eidetic memory', they tell me, and I can remember the slightest details on things - I think this comes from my model-building, maybe.


He ain't kidding, folks.  Chirine's recall really is astonishing, and yeah, in our younger days many of us (yes, including Phil) would check what he said, and by Avanthe's perfect breasts, yeah, he was right.  I mean, nobody's got near-perfect recall, right?

Guess again.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 29, 2015, 12:35:10 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838580
I still have your lantern, Glorious General, from your Adventure Of The Quest For The Sarcophagus Of The Ancient Pot Roast; it's been joined by a lot of other lamps in my adventurers' kit, over the years - IKEA, your best source for Tekumel gaming supplies!

Tell our audience about your adventure in my house - they might find it illuminating!!!

(Sorry. Just couldn't pass that one up...)


Heh.  That's actually a chapter in my book.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 29, 2015, 12:40:37 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838578
Well, all right, then. Here we go...

So the players are wandering around some long-buried installation of the Ancients, when this huge machine starts following them around. They've been playing with Phil long enough to figure out that Everything Is Out To Get Them, so they assume that this is some sort of robot sentinel. They avoid the thing doe as long as they can, but it finally catches up to them. Melee occurs, and they find that their puny swords and such have no effect on the machine - spells are equally ineffective, and things are looking pretty grim when a giant mechanical arm comes out of the top of the machine, grapples a player around the middle - Craig Smith, I think - hoists him up over the top of the machine and begins to shake him vigorously while he's upside down. All of his stuff gets shaken loose, and it falls into a big hopper on the back of the machine. After the stuff stops falling off of him, the machine sets him back down and rolls away from the party.

They follow it, hoping to get Craig's stuff back. The machine rolls to a collection station, the hopper tilts back into the chute, and all of Graig's stuff gets dumped into the new machine. It goes into the chute, a transparent shield closes, there's a hum of machinery, the stuff vanishes, and the lights come on.

The players, all SF fans, realize that they've been 'collected' by the trash collection machine, and the 'trash' has been dumped into the matter-converter to be recycled as energy for the complex.

Ask my players about their encounters with the Ru'umbas, the little machines that clean the floors in the ancient Space Marine bases... :)


Thank you!  Now I recall.

I will give Craig Smith credit... he was never afraid to laugh at himself.  And once we figured out what was up, we all laughed uproariously.  That's vintage Tekumel, that is, and it's also vintage "Sword and Planet" post WW2.  Sword and sorcery, SF, and sword and planet all got a bit more sense of humor in those years.  Fafhrd could wind up dead drunk, shaved bald, and tied to a bed as an acolyte of Issek of the Jug, but those things would never happen to Conan or John Carter.

When he was in the mood Phil could enjoy an old fashioned pratfall as well as the next man.

And then he'd combine this with his uncanny ability with language.... like the time we found a sentry robot that didn't speak any of our languages, but gradually through about half an hour formed a rudimentary understanding of Tsolyani.  Phil didn't TELL us this, he demonstrated it by the robot gradually speaking more and more complicated phrases and having a conversation with us.

We named it "George."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2015, 12:59:39 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838581
Very true.  And Phil was a smart, smart cookie and very thoroughly educated.  His head was just plain full of stuff that a typical college age gamer... or later, a high school age gamer... just doesn't have in his or her head.  I once razzed him about something... I think perhaps discovering that "Sacbe" is a Mayan word for a raised roadway.  In a rare moment of candor (usually if you pulled Phil's leg he'd pull yours back) he said "after this many years I don't even remember where I heard things any more."  Now that I've hit 60 myself, I know what he means in a way my 20 year old self didn't.

And Phil was an academic through and through, from the top of his shiny little bald head to his fuzzy little toes.  He was interested in what's NEW about Tekumel (or anything else), not rehashing what he thought was a sufficient introduction when he wrote the original EPT back in late 74.  I think that may be why he had so many half-finished pieces of Tekumel.  He used to quote frequently the old academic aphorism of "publish or perish," and I think part of what Tekumel recreation for him was that when he got tired of a project he could set it aside.



He ain't kidding, folks.  Chirine's recall really is astonishing, and yeah, in our younger days many of us (yes, including Phil) would check what he said, and by Avanthe's perfect breasts, yeah, he was right.  I mean, nobody's got near-perfect recall, right?

Guess again.


I think you have Phil down pat, here. I think, like you, that he simply didn't feel like following things through.

Phil was astonishingly well-educated, and not just in a formal sense. He'd lived in rural South Asia for two years, out in the villages, on the same things that the locals did. He once commented that he's been so far out in the countryside what he'd been the very first 'Westerner' that the locals had ever seen...

And thank you for the kind words, too! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2015, 01:01:22 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838582
Heh.  That's actually a chapter in my book.

Wonderful!!! Put down on the list for a copy, please! :)

I have to say, it was both exciting and traumatic, even as the guy running the thing... :0
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2015, 01:14:09 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838584
Thank you!  Now I recall.

I will give Craig Smith credit... he was never afraid to laugh at himself.  And once we figured out what was up, we all laughed uproariously.  That's vintage Tekumel, that is, and it's also vintage "Sword and Planet" post WW2.  Sword and sorcery, SF, and sword and planet all got a bit more sense of humor in those years.  Fafhrd could wind up dead drunk, shaved bald, and tied to a bed as an acolyte of Issek of the Jug, but those things would never happen to Conan or John Carter.

When he was in the mood Phil could enjoy an old fashioned pratfall as well as the next man.

And then he'd combine this with his uncanny ability with language.... like the time we found a sentry robot that didn't speak any of our languages, but gradually through about half an hour formed a rudimentary understanding of Tsolyani.  Phil didn't TELL us this, he demonstrated it by the robot gradually speaking more and more complicated phrases and having a conversation with us.

We named it "George."

Happy to help - it's what I'm here for.

Agreed on the humor - when did this thing get so serious, anyway?

Interestingly, I have been criticized by A Big Name Tekumel fan for my book about our life with Phil being "too lightearted" and for "making Tekumel sound like fun" his opinion was that I should have more 'grimdark' and 'nastiness' in my account of our adventures.

I am not doing this; we certainly had a lot of quite scary and nasty stuff happen in the campaign over the years, but we also had a lot of fun during our times with Phil. I try to show this, in the book, and I'm told by other readers of the drafts that I'm doing a pretty good job of it.

Like the time where both Phil and Dave played the language thing to the hilt; Phil had sent us to Blackmoor, and Dave's tender clutches. One of the players managed to offend the locals - which, considering that this is Blackmoor, is amazing in and of itself - and in a wonderful parley between Phil and Dave in no mutually comprehensible language, they negotiated a settlement. Dave was speaking in Norwegian, and trying gestures; Phil was speaking in Urdu, and also using gestures.

It was hilarious to watch, let me tell you, and very well done; it was also successful, and the player found himself married to the sheep. The wedding was lovely (Princess Vrisa did a lot of happy crying, and caught the bouquet) and we all got nicely plastered. It was great fun, and the only person annoyed was the groom... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 29, 2015, 01:52:20 AM
Sadly, Phil fell into villainous company who thought RPGs were "ART!" and that "ART!" meant grim and dark and nihilistic, and who knew how to manipulate Phil.  Tekumel has been the worse for it in my opinion.

I always agreed with Pete Panchyshin; "I can be a dirtbag in this world."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2015, 02:30:55 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838599
Sadly, Phil fell into villainous company who thought RPGs were "ART!" and that "ART!" meant grim and dark and nihilistic, and who knew how to manipulate Phil.  Tekumel has been the worse for it in my opinion.

I always agreed with Pete Panchyshin; "I can be a dirtbag in this world."


Yeah, I'd have to agree with that. The Tekumel of the mid-1990s bears little to no resemblance to the Tekumel we lived in for so many years. It's been profoundly saddening to listen to people who tell me "I wish I'd known about you, Chirine, before I got into Tekumel fandom!"; I keep trying to tell people about the sheer fun we had, back in the day, and the astonishment I see at that does give me hope for the future.

It's like the RPG game at did at Gary Con last year - that was one heck of a lot of fun for everyone, I gathered, and not a whisper of concerns about 'prestige' anywhere in sight. We just played what Phil created, and none of the nonsense about languages and such that I have been hearing from various people over the years.

Was it 'right'? Was it the 'One True Tekumel'? I have no idea, really; all I wanted to do was give people a look into our past as gamers and have some fun while doing it. Maybe I succeeded; maybe I didn't - but people sure did laugh a lot and have fun... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 29, 2015, 04:50:04 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838561
The light infantry stops being light infantry when you give them the pikes. In most games, they become mediums or heavies, depending on other factors. Usually, light infantry are skirmishers, fighting in open order - or no order! - and tend to be able to outrun or avoid heavy cavalry; the heavy horse just can't move quickly or nimbly enough to catch the pesky sods. Which is why one has light or even medium horse; that's what they're for.

Pikes require a close-order formation to be effective; it makes them a lot slower and less flexible, and you lose the advantages in mobility.

And, yes, I do think you're right - and I'd have caught it in playtest, too. :)
Oh, sorry, I classify them merely by armour worn...then can I get lassos and terrain on the part of my skirmisher troops:D? Like small holes that break horses' feet and aren't seen in the bushes?
Yeah, I can see knights being routed under these conditions. When your charge ends up with you on your back in front of the enemies, knight or no knight, your most likely fate is to die this day.
Hell, contamporary historians think even Agincourt was won by the English archers charging the knights while they were losing footing, and cutting their throats.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838564
I am reminded of the time Gary Rudolph was facing some Undead out at Phil's; he wanted to use the tried-and-true method for dealing with mummies with the flask of oil and the torch routine. Phil was very, very dubious, so he got some glass flasks - candle molds, he told me - and filled them with water and threw that a one of the trees in his back yard. He then too a stick, painted one end red - to represent the burning end - and repeated the series of throws. From this, he came up with a table detailing how likely one was to his the target with the flask of oil, the chance of the flask breaking, and then the chance of the torch hitting the patch of oil.

He also came up with a table for the flask breaking in the player's pouch, so Gary came up with an elaborate backpack for a bearer-slave to carry that had racks for the flasks and sawdust for packing. All very elaborate, and as might be expected it all went horribly wrong the first time out...

I laughed so hard I cried, when this whole sad tale was related to me... :)
Simulations are something I respect. Of course, that table is relevant only if you can peg your own skill level in throwing. (I'd rate myself at about Thrown 0 by Traveller skills, but I might be overestimating myself;)).

And in order to avoid the table, I'd just think of a way to throw oil and torch together, effectively making it a Molotov cocktail.

That example made me think about what I feel about Frei Kriegspeil. My conclusion was that I'd run it in a second...but I don't know many GMs where I wouldn't end up either facepalming, or backseat GMing, if they try to run it. There are loads if trivia about conflict situations and social sciences that are just unknown to the majority of gamers out there.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 29, 2015, 05:01:22 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838569
It all goes back to WRG, by the same author, and the British fondness for tournament play. The series of WRG/DBA/DBX rules get more and more abstract as they go along, and become more like board games then they do what you and I would consider 'miniatures' games. 'Free Kriegspiel' is a very dirty term amongst the fans of the series, from what I've seen.

They - the Historical Miniatures Gaming Society, especially - used to tout the series as being the most historically accurate sets of rules in the universe. I felt differently, especially after the Origins in Baltimore that we went to in the very early 1980s where the HMGS was running The National Tournament for historical miniatures. In the WRG/etc series, the battlefield terrain is chosen by the players, usually three features each, and placed on the opposing player's side of the table. In the final battle of the tournament, each player picked three 'swamp' terrain pieces, and gleefully place them on their opponent's side of the table.

Me, I started laughing my fool head off, much to the annoyance of the 'serious wargamers'; the game instantly stalemated, as one player had a Chinese Warring States Chariot army, and his esteemed opponent had a late medieval army of French Gen d'armes super-heavy cavalry...

You'd have laughed your head off, too... :)

Well, a charge-based army facing off amid six swamps aren't really going to have much decisive action, that's for sure:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838572
Thank you for your wonderful comments!!!

I agree with you entirely - this same issue has been driving me crazy for decades.

Phil never really understood or grasped the notion that GMs needed to be given more information with which to run games - he simply did it off the cuff, like Arneson did, and then went back and took notes for later. I kept after him for the better part of a decade to write some introductory stuff, but never would - he just wasn't interested.

And I think I am part of the problem, too. I read at about 2,000 words a minute, with a measured 95% comprehension and retention, so when I run Tekumel I simply draw on all of the material that I've read and collected over the years. When I started with Phil, I soon became his informal archivist; anything generated in the game sessions, Phil would keep the original and I'd get a photocopy - this is where my huge archive come from, as well as what's in my head. I have what's been called an 'eidetic memory', they tell me, and I can remember the slightest details on things - I think this comes from my model-building, maybe.

Speaking from my perspective as one o Phil's many, many publishers over the years, it does bother me that there has never been a really comprehensive look at Tekumel ever done. Sadly, Phil would get bored pretty easliy with the writing/publishing process, and as a result a lot of the extant literature is made up of half-finished works.

Sore, I'd love to see all of Phil's work edited/organized/collated and published, but that's not something that is going to happen under the terms of the Tekumel Foundation's "exclusive license for the commercial exploitation of the Tekumel IP" any time soon. I worked for them for a couple of years as the formal archivist for Tekumel, and wound up quitting over this very issue; I am, and have always been, a 'populist' who feels that all of Phil's work should be published; I am not an 'elitist', who believes that Tekumel is the preserve of the perceived OSR elite and publication needs are to be driven by the needs of 'prestige' and 'position'. As far as I know, from my dealings with them, the Foundation has no really solid plans to publish much more then the back list of the books and such.

Which, given their situation, is not very surprising. They have no people, no resources, and no money to work with; all of the various projects I've been involved with with them have taken four to five years or more to accomplish, of they've been done by 'outside people' who are willing to invest their own money and man-hours on Tekumel.

My book, for example, will be all about how we gamed with Phil and what we learned along the way in some fifteen years of gaming with him. It will not be an 'official Tekumel' work, as I will be publishing the thing as a free down-load - fan fiction, if you like. Have a look at the published publications policies on the Foundation's website, and you'll see why.

Sadly, I have been asked publish the book by somebody with real money, with full-color covers and lost of artwork. I've told then that they need to talk to the Foundation in order to be able to do this, and that's been the last I've heard of anything. I plan on finishing the book; I'm up to 108,000 words, and expecting to go to 300,000 in six volumes. I'll keep plugging away, bit for now all you'll be able to get from me are threads like this and my little blog.

If you want to see more Tekumel being published, talk to the Foundation - they have the rights to the IP, and they guard them very carefully. I am, as they have told me, "just another fan".

Ask more questions; I'll tell you what I can.

Question time is my favourite time:p!

Did Phil base his gods on the Indian paradigm of Stability, Change/Destruction and Re-birth?
If so, who represents the re-birth? Is it some of the other races?
Or is it the humans themselves:)?

How important is ritual purity in Tekumel? Maybe it's treated in some place I've never seen.

How much does performing religious duties (or them being neglected) impact your position in the society? Can you make a grand donation in exchange for a lot of prestige? If it's grand enough to make people talk, would the local authorities feel compelled to offer you an office, even if they wouldn't normally favour your clan - for personal reasons or because it's a low clan?

Quote from: Old Geezer;838577
I remember this.  That's about the time that I decided to carry lanterns for 10 Khaitars instead of a torch for one and a pot of oil for one; a lantern gives you fire and oil together in one easy-to-throw package, and it even has a handle for your safety and convenience.  "Burning end towards enemy."

Sounds like Molotov cocktails with the added bonus of giving light;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838578
Well, all right, then. Here we go...

So the players are wandering around some long-buried installation of the Ancients, when this huge machine starts following them around. They've been playing with Phil long enough to figure out that Everything Is Out To Get Them, so they assume that this is some sort of robot sentinel. They avoid the thing doe as long as they can, but it finally catches up to them. Melee occurs, and they find that their puny swords and such have no effect on the machine - spells are equally ineffective, and things are looking pretty grim when a giant mechanical arm comes out of the top of the machine, grapples a player around the middle - Craig Smith, I think - hoists him up over the top of the machine and begins to shake him vigorously while he's upside down. All of his stuff gets shaken loose, and it falls into a big hopper on the back of the machine. After the stuff stops falling off of him, the machine sets him back down and rolls away from the party.

They follow it, hoping to get Craig's stuff back. The machine rolls to a collection station, the hopper tilts back into the chute, and all of Graig's stuff gets dumped into the new machine. It goes into the chute, a transparent shield closes, there's a hum of machinery, the stuff vanishes, and the lights come on.

The players, all SF fans, realize that they've been 'collected' by the trash collection machine, and the 'trash' has been dumped into the matter-converter to be recycled as energy for the complex.

Ask my players about their encounters with the Ru'umbas, the little machines that clean the floors in the ancient Space Marine bases... :)

So, he was mugged by a trash-cleaning machine:D?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 29, 2015, 05:31:27 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838580
I still have your lantern, Glorious General, from your Adventure Of The Quest For The Sarcophagus Of The Ancient Pot Roast; it's been joined by a lot of other lamps in my adventurers' kit, over the years - IKEA, your best source for Tekumel gaming supplies!

Tell our audience about your adventure in my house - they might find it illuminating!!!

(Sorry. Just couldn't pass that one up...)

IKEA as a source of Tekumel gaming supplies reminds me of Old Geezer admitting he added a McD to the center of a dungeon, so the monsters could feed:D.

Quote from: Old Geezer;838581
Very true.  And Phil was a smart, smart cookie and very thoroughly educated.  His head was just plain full of stuff that a typical college age gamer... or later, a high school age gamer... just doesn't have in his or her head.  I once razzed him about something... I think perhaps discovering that "Sacbe" is a Mayan word for a raised roadway.  In a rare moment of candor (usually if you pulled Phil's leg he'd pull yours back) he said "after this many years I don't even remember where I heard things any more."  Now that I've hit 60 myself, I know what he means in a way my 20 year old self didn't.

And Phil was an academic through and through, from the top of his shiny little bald head to his fuzzy little toes.  He was interested in what's NEW about Tekumel (or anything else), not rehashing what he thought was a sufficient introduction when he wrote the original EPT back in late 74.  I think that may be why he had so many half-finished pieces of Tekumel.  He used to quote frequently the old academic aphorism of "publish or perish," and I think part of what Tekumel recreation for him was that when he got tired of a project he could set it aside.

I can relate to that...but it basically means that we're out writing the lacking parts.
It wouldn't be a first, I admit:).

Quote
He ain't kidding, folks.  Chirine's recall really is astonishing, and yeah, in our younger days many of us (yes, including Phil) would check what he said, and by Avanthe's perfect breasts, yeah, he was right.  I mean, nobody's got near-perfect recall, right?

Guess again.

I had near-perfect recall as a young puppy, though my speed of reading was much lower. So, chirine, how did you obtain this speed?

Quote from: Old Geezer;838584
Thank you!  Now I recall.

I will give Craig Smith credit... he was never afraid to laugh at himself.  And once we figured out what was up, we all laughed uproariously.  That's vintage Tekumel, that is, and it's also vintage "Sword and Planet" post WW2.  Sword and sorcery, SF, and sword and planet all got a bit more sense of humor in those years.  Fafhrd could wind up dead drunk, shaved bald, and tied to a bed as an acolyte of Issek of the Jug, but those things would never happen to Conan or John Carter.

Well, I think Conan suffered for the short length of the stories. They seem to have some hints of humour, but it's just that, hints.
Admittedly, Conan and John Carter usually start in a similar position at the start of the story:). In the middle of the desert with no water sounds equally embarrassing for the character, but not quite the same.

Quote
When he was in the mood Phil could enjoy an old fashioned pratfall as well as the next man.

And then he'd combine this with his uncanny ability with language.... like the time we found a sentry robot that didn't speak any of our languages, but gradually through about half an hour formed a rudimentary understanding of Tsolyani.  Phil didn't TELL us this, he demonstrated it by the robot gradually speaking more and more complicated phrases and having a conversation with us.

We named it "George."

Did you play this out in Tsolyani;)?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838588
I think you have Phil down pat, here. I think, like you, that he simply didn't feel like following things through.

Phil was astonishingly well-educated, and not just in a formal sense. He'd lived in rural South Asia for two years, out in the villages, on the same things that the locals did. He once commented that he's been so far out in the countryside what he'd been the very first 'Westerner' that the locals had ever seen...

And thank you for the kind words, too! :)

Well, that does explain quite a bit about the quality of his work.


Quote from: chirine ba kal;838592
Happy to help - it's what I'm here for.

Agreed on the humor - when did this thing get so serious, anyway?

Interestingly, I have been criticized by A Big Name Tekumel fan for my book about our life with Phil being "too lightearted" and for "making Tekumel sound like fun" his opinion was that I should have more 'grimdark' and 'nastiness' in my account of our adventures.

Since when "grimdark" and "nastiness" are opposite of "having fun"? If they are, I'm doing them wrong.
Could you ask him that next time?

Quote
I am not doing this; we certainly had a lot of quite scary and nasty stuff happen in the campaign over the years, but we also had a lot of fun during our times with Phil. I try to show this, in the book, and I'm told by other readers of the drafts that I'm doing a pretty good job of it.

Well, yeah, sounds right.

Quote
Like the time where both Phil and Dave played the language thing to the hilt; Phil had sent us to Blackmoor, and Dave's tender clutches. One of the players managed to offend the locals - which, considering that this is Blackmoor, is amazing in and of itself - and in a wonderful parley between Phil and Dave in no mutually comprehensible language, they negotiated a settlement. Dave was speaking in Norwegian, and trying gestures; Phil was speaking in Urdu, and also using gestures.

It was hilarious to watch, let me tell you, and very well done; it was also successful, and the player found himself married to the sheep. The wedding was lovely (Princess Vrisa did a lot of happy crying, and caught the bouquet) and we all got nicely plastered. It was great fun, and the only person annoyed was the groom... :)

Sounds par for the course, actually.
Was wifophagia (or however it's written) permitted and if not, how much was he fined for it:p?
Quote from: Old Geezer;838599
Sadly, Phil fell into villainous company who thought RPGs were "ART!" and that "ART!" meant grim and dark and nihilistic, and who knew how to manipulate Phil.  Tekumel has been the worse for it in my opinion.

I always agreed with Pete Panchyshin; "I can be a dirtbag in this world."

Villainous
company:D0?
Ahem, art can be grim, dark and nihilistic, but it doesn't have to. Do you mean they were focusing too much on the grimdark aspects?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838601
Yeah, I'd have to agree with that. The Tekumel of the mid-1990s bears little to no resemblance to the Tekumel we lived in for so many years. It's been profoundly saddening to listen to people who tell me "I wish I'd known about you, Chirine, before I got into Tekumel fandom!"; I keep trying to tell people about the sheer fun we had, back in the day, and the astonishment I see at that does give me hope for the future.

There's always hope for the future. Of course, people that like grimdark, would play a grimdark Tekumel. The others won't, no matter what's in the setting book, IME.

Quote
It's like the RPG game at did at Gary Con last year - that was one heck of a lot of fun for everyone, I gathered, and not a whisper of concerns about 'prestige' anywhere in sight. We just played what Phil created, and none of the nonsense about languages and such that I have been hearing from various people over the years.

Ahem, chirine, have you considered that mastering a made-up language is more or less the definition of "nonsense about languages" for many players;)? It all depends on what's your comfort level in engaging with languages and stuff.
I've sure heard the above about Klingon-speakers from some of my players.

Quote
Was it 'right'? Was it the 'One True Tekumel'? I have no idea, really; all I wanted to do was give people a look into our past as gamers and have some fun while doing it.

That's why I'm likely to be an avid reader of both your book and OG's book, when they come out;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 29, 2015, 08:02:46 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838554
What I'm on about are the people - the on-line High Priests of the Great God Gygax - to take an off-hand comment by Gary in a Dragon article that MINIATURES ARE NOT TO BE USED. I'm continually bemused by the 'rabbinical scholars' who pour over every obscure letter or article by either Dave or Gary to try and determine The Right Way To Game - hence my comments about the 'mythology of gaming'.
I guess everyone needs a hobby. :rolleyes: Mine is crafting settings and running and playing RPGs.

Since I never played with Phil, or Gary, or Dave I don't have any memories or ego tied up in the various tempests in a teapot of the rpginnical scholars. I understand they that can be more difficult to ignore for people like you or OG who have your own memories of those days and those people.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 29, 2015, 10:23:26 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;838621
Oh, sorry, I classify them merely by armour worn...then can I get lassos and terrain on the part of my skirmisher troops:D? Like small holes that break horses' feet and aren't seen in the bushes.

I know perfectly well about Courtrai.:p

In this particular case the charge was across smooth, flat, level ground and the light infantry with javelins and bucklers met the charge of the knights head on and smashed them.

Arseholes to that, says I.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2015, 11:43:51 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;838621
Oh, sorry, I classify them merely by armour worn...then can I get lassos and terrain on the part of my skirmisher troops:D? Like small holes that break horses' feet and aren't seen in the bushes?
Yeah, I can see knights being routed under these conditions. When your charge ends up with you on your back in front of the enemies, knight or no knight, your most likely fate is to die this day.
Hell, contamporary historians think even Agincourt was won by the English archers charging the knights while they were losing footing, and cutting their throats.


Simulations are something I respect. Of course, that table is relevant only if you can peg your own skill level in throwing. (I'd rate myself at about Thrown 0 by Traveller skills, but I might be overestimating myself;)).

And in order to avoid the table, I'd just think of a way to throw oil and torch together, effectively making it a Molotov cocktail.

That example made me think about what I feel about Frei Kriegspeil. My conclusion was that I'd run it in a second...but I don't know many GMs where I wouldn't end up either facepalming, or backseat GMing, if they try to run it. There are loads if trivia about conflict situations and social sciences that are just unknown to the majority of gamers out there.


Taking it from the top, if I may...

There's some very big differences in infantry types in the various historical periods; yes, you can get lassos, as well as bolas, and if you have the time I'd be happy to let you prepare the battlefield. What I look at is what we used to call 'inherent military probability', where you have to take all the factors into account. About all we can do is the research - which in my particular case, included a lot of what's now called 'experimental archeology' - real world simulation.

An example was when Phil bought a period suit of armor from the early 1600s (not the one in the dining room, but the one in his attic office; OG's seen it.) It turned out that the suit fit me like it had been made for me, so Phil had me armor up and do a bunch of stuff for him so he could get a baseline of timings and effort involved. Then, Phil being Phil, he had me switch into my Tekumel armor, and do the whole routine over again. It gave us a sample for all sorts of things, and Phil used the data in his games as I did  in mine.

So, we added in a lot of real-world research, and I think it made for better games.

The 'toss table' was a handy guide - and,as you say, when we added in our particular stats for dexterity and such it made things work out pretty well in the games. Mind you, there were several players who I would have never, ever let toss the Molotovs in real life...

I agree with you about the lack of data in gaming; back in Ye Olden Dayes, I think we were more 'generalists' then 'specialists', and I think that's a function of there being so few actual rules sets available back then. You simply had to 'know the period', and not rely on the rules designers to do it all for you.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2015, 11:55:20 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;838623
Well, a charge-based army facing off amid six swamps aren't really going to have much decisive action, that's for sure:).


Question time is my favourite time:p!

Did Phil base his gods on the Indian paradigm of Stability, Change/Destruction and Re-birth?
If so, who represents the re-birth? Is it some of the other races?
Or is it the humans themselves:)?

How important is ritual purity in Tekumel? Maybe it's treated in some place I've never seen.

How much does performing religious duties (or them being neglected) impact your position in the society? Can you make a grand donation in exchange for a lot of prestige? If it's grand enough to make people talk, would the local authorities feel compelled to offer you an office, even if they wouldn't normally favour your clan - for personal reasons or because it's a low clan?


Sounds like Molotov cocktails with the added bonus of giving light;).


So, he was mugged by a trash-cleaning machine:D?


1. You have it, sir - it was the most boring battle I'd ever seen, and they finally stopped play and called it a draw.

2. No idea - the subject never came up in the games. May I suggest Phil's discussion on the subject in "Ebon Bindings"? It's the best thing I can suggest.

3. Same for ritual purity; there are some snippets here and there, like  the priests of Qon don't eat onions for ritual reasons and priests of Vimuhla like me are supposed to avoid eating fish. I took issue with Phil over this; he claimed that it was because fish live in water, and water puts out flame, hence fish are offensive to Lord Vimuhla, Lord of Flame and War. I. for my part, pointed out that eating fish was a manifestation of the divine power of Lord Vimuhla to vanquish the forces that tried to stymie him, and so eating fish was a holy act of worship.

Phil's comment was "You just like eating fish." My reply was "Well, yes, but you have to agree that I have a point, theologically speaking." Phil had to see the logic in that, so now really fanatic worshippers in my temple eat fish. I have a sect and everything!

4. Yes; observance is very important in the cultural context. I made sure to be a pretty good member of the temple, and it did further my career. And yes, large donations to make a difference - it can indeed get you a better position in spite of your clan.

6. and 7. yes, and yes. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2015, 12:25:46 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;838625
IKEA as a source of Tekumel gaming supplies reminds me of Old Geezer admitting he added a McD to the center of a dungeon, so the monsters could feed:D.


I can relate to that...but it basically means that we're out writing the lacking parts.
It wouldn't be a first, I admit:).


I had near-perfect recall as a young puppy, though my speed of reading was much lower. So, chirine, how did you obtain this speed?


Well, I think Conan suffered for the short length of the stories. They seem to have some hints of humour, but it's just that, hints.
Admittedly, Conan and John Carter usually start in a similar position at the start of the story:). In the middle of the desert with no water sounds equally embarrassing for the character, but not quite the same.


Did you play this out in Tsolyani;)?


Well, that does explain quite a bit about the quality of his work.



Since when "grimdark" and "nastiness" are opposite of "having fun"? If they are, I'm doing them wrong.
Could you ask him that next time?


Well, yeah, sounds right.


Sounds par for the course, actually.
Was wifophagia (or however it's written) permitted and if not, how much was he fined for it:p?

Villainous
company:D0?
Ahem, art can be grim, dark and nihilistic, but it doesn't have to. Do you mean they were focusing too much on the grimdark aspects?


There's always hope for the future. Of course, people that like grimdark, would play a grimdark Tekumel. The others won't, no matter what's in the setting book, IME.


Ahem, chirine, have you considered that mastering a made-up language is more or less the definition of "nonsense about languages" for many players;)? It all depends on what's your comfort level in engaging with languages and stuff.
I've sure heard the above about Klingon-speakers from some of my players.


That's why I'm likely to be an avid reader of both your book and OG's book, when they come out;).


And I'm back... :)

1. What I find delightful about IKEA is that in addition to the usual and pretty normal household stuff, they do have some very odd items tucked away in the back corners that are really useful for games and such. I once ran a game that was took place at night, and all the players had to see by were the lanterns that they were carrying. I simulated this on the game table with IKEA 'solvinden' LCD lights, with 'stolpen' LCds in the miniature buildings. It was hysterical; people had a great time, stumbling around in the dark - yes, the room lights were off. (Photos on my Photobucket page, for your amusement.) I've also found plenty of Tsolyani home furnishings there as well; everything from rugs and mats to handy chinaware that will fit in a backpack. I refuse to be uncomfortable on my adventures, thank you.

2. Agreed, which is why I think an active fan base/community is vital for Tekumel's survival.

3. I have no idea how I came to be able to read and absorb data so quickly. I am told by the doctors that my brain shows a lot of activity on both sides all the time, which is why I am slightly dyslexic - and ambidextrous as well. They think that this is why I recovered from my brain bleed back in 2013 so quickly; I just use more of the wetware, it seems. (I also have ten identical fingerprints; make of that what you will. I am pretty odd, I guess.)

4. I still have very mixed feelings about the 'grimdark' comment; it was more like "I had a miserable time gaming in Tekumel with Phil, so you should have too and not made it sound so fun." Well, all right, but I did have fun. And, as OG can tell you, there were some pretty nasty moments in our careers - Phil had seen it all, over the years, and didn't soft-pedal anything.

5. Nope; this is Blackmoor, after all. The locals just made him marry the beast. It was a wonderful wedding, but we had to toss the bride's bouquet to keep her from eating it. The reception was a lot of fun, too.

6. Re OG's comment, no, they weren't. They were very self-centered, and very insecure, and really manipulated Phil and his world for their own ends.

7. I do agree with you about the languages, by the way. This is part of what OG was talking about - back in our time with Phil, the languages were there for the fun of it and for handy plot devices. In the middle 1990s, they became a status symbol - if you were in the 'elite', you knew the languages; if you weren't, you were one of the common herd. It was a difference in emphasis; we played with the languages because it was fun, and we didn't lord it over the rest of the world because we could do glottal stops.

8. Hugely amused by your Klingon comment - I've been a 'Star Trek' fan since 1968, and I find the Klingons bemusing. My all time favorite Klingon costume was a guy who did the Klingons from the 'Mirror, Mirror universe'; the other Klingon fans had a collective fit, but it was delightfully funny to see!

9. I hope you'll be amused at our attempts to stay alive!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2015, 12:32:50 PM
Quote from: Bren;838635
I guess everyone needs a hobby. :rolleyes: Mine is crafting settings and running and playing RPGs.

Since I never played with Phil, or Gary, or Dave I don't have any memories or ego tied up in the various tempests in a teapot of the rpginnical scholars. I understand they that can be more difficult to ignore for people like you or OG who have your own memories of those days and those people.


Couldn't agree with you more! My particular hobby is model building, which does come in handy for gaming. My games are a way to show off my work, I guess... :)

I do feel the same way that you do - tempests in a teapot. What I've found baffling over the last five years is that when people tell me how we are supposed to have gamed back in the day, and I mention that (in my own personal experience, of course) we didn't do it that way, it's like I am questioning their religious beliefs of something. There's what seems to be (being on the outside of the thing) a lot of mythology that's been built up about what Dave or Phil or Gary is supposed to have done, and how this is The Right Way To Game. I've gotten some very negative e-mails and PMs over the years as a result, and it's gotten pretty old.

Galileo probably had the same feeling, too. "But, it still moves!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 29, 2015, 01:39:17 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838669
3. Same for ritual purity; there are some snippets here and there, like  the priests of Qon don't eat onions for ritual reasons and priests of Vimuhla like me are supposed to avoid eating fish. I took issue with Phil over this; he claimed that it was because fish live in water, and water puts out flame, hence fish are offensive to Lord Vimuhla, Lord of Flame and War. I. for my part, pointed out that eating fish was a manifestation of the divine power of Lord Vimuhla to vanquish the forces that tried to stymie him, and so eating fish was a holy act of worship.

Phil's comment was "You just like eating fish." My reply was "Well, yes, but you have to agree that I have a point, theologically speaking." Phil had to see the logic in that, so now really fanatic worshippers in my temple eat fish. I have a sect and everything!

As long as you cook the fish. Sashimi is blasphemous to Lord Vimuhla and disrespectful to all our ancestors who first learned to use fire.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838678
What I've found baffling over the last five years is that when people tell me how we are supposed to have gamed back in the day, and I mention that (in my own personal experience, of course) we didn't do it that way, it's like I am questioning their religious beliefs of something.
I have read the odd forum post from people who started gaming in the 1990s or are too young to have even been alive when we were first started gaming talking about how things were back in the day. I think if they were talking about me or other real people I knew and gamed with I'd get more upset. In a way I am fortunate that the names from my early gaming are virtually unknown in gaming circles so it is easier from me to ignore rpginnical scholarly arguments.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on June 29, 2015, 01:47:18 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838676


9. I hope you'll be amused at our attempts to stay alive!


Before something horrible happens, you and OG need to get this stuff in writing.

So a new generation of "scholars" can start the "True TRUE Way" cults. ;)

Actually I have a self interest of confirming that I'm not forgetful and the way you played WAS the way I remembered and not just how I wished it was.

I keep trying to go back to EPT and run a GAME but there are so many new expectations that it never gets far.

Have you ever been able to tell if your play style is transferable?

When you run a game at a public event, do you ever see "the lights come on" in the faces of any players?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Premier on June 29, 2015, 03:58:27 PM
Quote from: Bren;838693
As long as you cook the fish. Sashimi is blasphemous to Lord Vimuhla and disrespectful to all our ancestors who first learned to use fire.


"Cooking" is a dangerously vague word and is close to heresy. It could potentially include steaming or boiling the fish, or making fish soup!

For a follower of Lord Vimuhla, the only accceptable way to prepare a fish is to roast it over an open fire!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 29, 2015, 04:29:31 PM
Quote from: Premier;838715
"Cooking" is a dangerously vague word and is close to heresy. It could potentially include steaming or boiling the fish, or making fish soup!

For a follower of Lord Vimuhla, the only accceptable way to prepare a fish is to roast it over an open fire!

Grilling is also acceptable. Frying is still under disputation.

All this is just as far as I am concerned. I've almost but never  quite run EPT, so take my opinion for what it is worth, which is about 1 Kaitar.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 29, 2015, 04:53:12 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838659
I know perfectly well about Courtrai.:p

In this particular case the charge was across smooth, flat, level ground and the light infantry with javelins and bucklers met the charge of the knights head on and smashed them.

Arseholes to that, says I.
If it was detailed enough that you're sure there weren't holes like that, I agree. That's bullshit.
Of course, we then get to chirine's comment "should have got it in the playtesting stage". Which I agree totally with.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838667
Taking it from the top, if I may...

There's some very big differences in infantry types in the various historical periods; yes, you can get lassos, as well as bolas, and if you have the time I'd be happy to let you prepare the battlefield. What I look at is what we used to call 'inherent military probability', where you have to take all the factors into account. About all we can do is the research - which in my particular case, included a lot of what's now called 'experimental archeology' - real world simulation.

An example was when Phil bought a period suit of armor from the early 1600s (not the one in the dining room, but the one in his attic office; OG's seen it.) It turned out that the suit fit me like it had been made for me, so Phil had me armor up and do a bunch of stuff for him so he could get a baseline of timings and effort involved. Then, Phil being Phil, he had me switch into my Tekumel armor, and do the whole routine over again. It gave us a sample for all sorts of things, and Phil used the data in his games as I did  in mine.

So, we added in a lot of real-world research, and I think it made for better games.

The 'toss table' was a handy guide - and,as you say, when we added in our particular stats for dexterity and such it made things work out pretty well in the games. Mind you, there were several players who I would have never, ever let toss the Molotovs in real life...

I agree with you about the lack of data in gaming; back in Ye Olden Dayes, I think we were more 'generalists' then 'specialists', and I think that's a function of there being so few actual rules sets available back then. You simply had to 'know the period', and not rely on the rules designers to do it all for you.
I find the real-world research improves my games as well. Funny fact, it manages to improve them even when I'm researching trivia while running deliberately over-the-top games.
(I don't know whether you're familiar with Exalted or Feng Shui 2, but imagine a game where your PCs stats were the default for a starting character, and you have FS2. It's a game emulating Hong Kong action movies, after all. Somehow, I manage to get knowledge of how sucker punching happens into it, and it's to the benefit of the game).
Still, unless you rely on all the Referees being "generalists", it's better if the game designers do the heavy lifting. As an example, I'd give you Artesia and Legends of the Wulin. Nobody reminds you to do ritual purification before entering the temple, when playing Artesia. You just get a penalty to your communion rolls, which keep you centered and balanced among other stuff. Nobody reminds you to consult a predictionist with bad reputation in Legend of the Wulin before engaging a major enemy, either. You just want to stick a penalty on your likely enemies:D!

Lots of typing ahead.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 29, 2015, 05:08:20 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838669
1. You have it, sir - it was the most boring battle I'd ever seen, and they finally stopped play and called it a draw.

2. No idea - the subject never came up in the games. May I suggest Phil's discussion on the subject in "Ebon Bindings"? It's the best thing I can suggest.

3. Same for ritual purity; there are some snippets here and there, like  the priests of Qon don't eat onions for ritual reasons and priests of Vimuhla like me are supposed to avoid eating fish. I took issue with Phil over this; he claimed that it was because fish live in water, and water puts out flame, hence fish are offensive to Lord Vimuhla, Lord of Flame and War. I. for my part, pointed out that eating fish was a manifestation of the divine power of Lord Vimuhla to vanquish the forces that tried to stymie him, and so eating fish was a holy act of worship.

Phil's comment was "You just like eating fish." My reply was "Well, yes, but you have to agree that I have a point, theologically speaking." Phil had to see the logic in that, so now really fanatic worshippers in my temple eat fish. I have a sect and everything!

4. Yes; observance is very important in the cultural context. I made sure to be a pretty good member of the temple, and it did further my career. And yes, large donations to make a difference - it can indeed get you a better position in spite of your clan.

6. and 7. yes, and yes. :)

1, 2 and 3, got that. I need some more materials, or making it up myself.
I get the feeling that the latter would be in line with what the Professor would have expected from any Referee.
Also, religions and sects have started over more stupid things than liking fish, so I find that surprisingly fitting (though I doubt I'd agree with your logic, the goal of any religion being to emulate the god or goddess' essence).

4.-7. Glad I've got that right. Seems like my mental pattern for Tsoyliani society is at least partially right.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 29, 2015, 05:32:03 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838676
And I'm back... :)

1. What I find delightful about IKEA is that in addition to the usual and pretty normal household stuff, they do have some very odd items tucked away in the back corners that are really useful for games and such. I once ran a game that was took place at night, and all the players had to see by were the lanterns that they were carrying. I simulated this on the game table with IKEA 'solvinden' LCD lights, with 'stolpen' LCds in the miniature buildings. It was hysterical; people had a great time, stumbling around in the dark - yes, the room lights were off. (Photos on my Photobucket page, for your amusement.) I've also found plenty of Tsolyani home furnishings there as well; everything from rugs and mats to handy chinaware that will fit in a backpack. I refuse to be uncomfortable on my adventures, thank you.

2. Agreed, which is why I think an active fan base/community is vital for Tekumel's survival.

3. I have no idea how I came to be able to read and absorb data so quickly. I am told by the doctors that my brain shows a lot of activity on both sides all the time, which is why I am slightly dyslexic - and ambidextrous as well. They think that this is why I recovered from my brain bleed back in 2013 so quickly; I just use more of the wetware, it seems. (I also have ten identical fingerprints; make of that what you will. I am pretty odd, I guess.)

4. I still have very mixed feelings about the 'grimdark' comment; it was more like "I had a miserable time gaming in Tekumel with Phil, so you should have too and not made it sound so fun." Well, all right, but I did have fun. And, as OG can tell you, there were some pretty nasty moments in our careers - Phil had seen it all, over the years, and didn't soft-pedal anything.

5. Nope; this is Blackmoor, after all. The locals just made him marry the beast. It was a wonderful wedding, but we had to toss the bride's bouquet to keep her from eating it. The reception was a lot of fun, too.

6. Re OG's comment, no, they weren't. They were very self-centered, and very insecure, and really manipulated Phil and his world for their own ends.

7. I do agree with you about the languages, by the way. This is part of what OG was talking about - back in our time with Phil, the languages were there for the fun of it and for handy plot devices. In the middle 1990s, they became a status symbol - if you were in the 'elite', you knew the languages; if you weren't, you were one of the common herd. It was a difference in emphasis; we played with the languages because it was fun, and we didn't lord it over the rest of the world because we could do glottal stops.

8. Hugely amused by your Klingon comment - I've been a 'Star Trek' fan since 1968, and I find the Klingons bemusing. My all time favorite Klingon costume was a guy who did the Klingons from the 'Mirror, Mirror universe'; the other Klingon fans had a collective fit, but it was delightfully funny to see!

9. I hope you'll be amused at our attempts to stay alive!
1. I can only say you put much more effort than me in props.

2. Agreed.

3. That's interesting. Too bad you don't have tips on how it can be learned.
Also, you'd suck as a criminal, one fingerprint and that's it:)!
That's a compliment, in case anyone is wondering;).

4. I wasn't there, no idea how it was intended. Me, I think that the ability of some of us to derive pleasure from or despite of the suffering of characters is what makes grimdark fun.

5. Too bad. How often can you say you've eaten your wife and not have it sound gross?

6. It reminds me of some contemporary gaming companies for some reason...
 
7. Well, I've had experience only with people that think being able to speak a made-up language made them somehow better...so it's on them that I find the idea amusing.
It doesn't help that their attempt to explain how much better people can be for speaking languages of a nameless property (NOT Tekumel) crashed hard when we discovered that I speak more real world languages than the made-up and real-world tongues mastered by the guy promoting the idea...:D
So yeah, chalk it up to stupid fans. Besides, if I want to use another language, I'd just learn spoken Chinese or German, and put it to use as a Tekumeli tongue. I've done that with French, when I knew nobody but me in the group speaks French.

8. Well, I'm not a Star Trek fan, so can't comment. I just quoted almost verbatim the reply of one of my players.

9. I promise to be amused, as long as you promise to not stop trying;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 29, 2015, 05:43:29 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838678
Couldn't agree with you more! My particular hobby is model building, which does come in handy for gaming. My games are a way to show off my work, I guess... :)

Huh, interesting, but I also try and bring elements of my other hobbies into roleplaying. Guess it's common...

Quote
I do feel the same way that you do - tempests in a teapot.

I've used the same phrase before...though I didn't know it exists in English!
(Storm in a waterglass is how we say it in Bulgarian).

Quote
What I've found baffling over the last five years is that when people tell me how we are supposed to have gamed back in the day, and I mention that (in my own personal experience, of course) we didn't do it that way, it's like I am questioning their religious beliefs of something.

Go to a martial arts demonstration. Tell the instructor people don't attack with knives that way, and for that matter, they don't punch that way, either.
You're likely to witness the same phenomenon (or to find a really cool instructor).

Quote from: Bren;838693
As long as you cook the fish. Sashimi is blasphemous to Lord Vimuhla and disrespectful to all our ancestors who first learned to use fire.

I have read the odd forum post from people who started gaming in the 1990s or are too young to have even been alive when we were first started gaming talking about how things were back in the day. I think if they were talking about me or other real people I knew and gamed with I'd get more upset. In a way I am fortunate that the names from my early gaming are virtually unknown in gaming circles so it is easier from me to ignore rpginnical scholarly arguments.

I think there is a difference between those that claim to know, and those that admit that the post is them extrapolating on accessible sources.

Quote from: Premier;838715
"Cooking" is a dangerously vague word and is close to heresy. It could potentially include steaming or boiling the fish, or making fish soup!

For a follower of Lord Vimuhla, the only accceptable way to prepare a fish is to roast it over an open fire!


Quote from: Bren;838721
Grilling is also acceptable. Frying is still under disputation.

All this is just as far as I am concerned. I've almost but never  quite run EPT, so take my opinion for what it is worth, which is about 1 Kaitar.

Frying? You mean you're from the oil-using sect:D?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 29, 2015, 07:47:21 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;838731
I think there is a difference between those that claim to know, and those that admit that the post is them extrapolating on accessible sources.
Yes indeed.


Quote from: AsenRG;838731
Frying? You mean you're from the oil-using sect:D?
NO I CERTAINLY AM NOT!!!!

Those people are wrong-headed, delusional fools, one step removed from heresy. They tread on the steps that lead to the path of utter darkness and someday soon I trust that Lord Vimuhla will illuminate that truth to the Council of the Eternal Flame so that we can unite in righteous condemnation of such semi-heretical beliefs and purify our doctrine once and for all.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 29, 2015, 11:28:33 PM
Followers of Karakan know that the proper way to cook fish is to hang it on the lightning attractors and let the God decide how it should be cooked.

Rumors that Chirine and his pals used to lounge about atop the temple of Vimuhla and place bets on which sacrifice to Karakan would get zotzed by the God next are entirely true.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2015, 11:44:17 PM
Quote from: Bren;838693
As long as you cook the fish. Sashimi is blasphemous to Lord Vimuhla and disrespectful to all our ancestors who first learned to use fire.

I have read the odd forum post from people who started gaming in the 1990s or are too young to have even been alive when we were first started gaming talking about how things were back in the day. I think if they were talking about me or other real people I knew and gamed with I'd get more upset. In a way I am fortunate that the names from my early gaming are virtually unknown in gaming circles so it is easier from me to ignore rpginnical scholarly arguments.


Agreed; the locals here in the Isles like raw fish, but I like them anyway.

Yep; I've had much the same experience; what baffles me is the reaction to the discovery that some of us old farts are still alive and still gaming.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2015, 11:47:48 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;838694
Before something horrible happens, you and OG need to get this stuff in writing.

So a new generation of "scholars" can start the "True TRUE Way" cults. ;)

Actually I have a self interest of confirming that I'm not forgetful and the way you played WAS the way I remembered and not just how I wished it was.

I keep trying to go back to EPT and run a GAME but there are so many new expectations that it never gets far.

Have you ever been able to tell if your play style is transferable?

When you run a game at a public event, do you ever see "the lights come on" in the faces of any players?
=


We're working on it.

I genuinely don't know if my play style is transferable or even teachable. I try as much as I can to explain how and why what I'm doing, which is why I have the blog, the You Tube, and the Photobucket outlets.

As for the lights coming on, yes, I do get that on occasion. This past year's gary Con Tekumel RPG had that, from all of the players. Ask OG; he was there. It was one heck of a game - I had the fight of my life!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2015, 11:50:45 PM
Quote from: Premier;838715
"Cooking" is a dangerously vague word and is close to heresy. It could potentially include steaming or boiling the fish, or making fish soup!

For a follower of Lord Vimuhla, the only accceptable way to prepare a fish is to roast it over an open fire!


Grilling. It's the only way. Once the Sacred Spices have been applied to purify the sacrifice, of course. A little drawn butter also pleases the Lord of Flame, too.

Lord Vimuhla is very understanding though. If you are stuck on the damn boat with Harchar for six months, all is forgiven.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2015, 11:53:39 PM
Quote from: Bren;838721
Grilling is also acceptable. Frying is still under disputation.

All this is just as far as I am concerned. I've almost but never  quite run EPT, so take my opinion for what it is worth, which is about 1 Kaitar.


Frying?!? Nope; grilling over an open fire. Can't get any better then that, especially when the officiant at the sacrifice perfumes the nostrils of the God with aromatic woods.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2015, 11:56:33 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;838724
If it was detailed enough that you're sure there weren't holes like that, I agree. That's bullshit.
Of course, we then get to chirine's comment "should have got it in the playtesting stage". Which I agree totally with.


I find the real-world research improves my games as well. Funny fact, it manages to improve them even when I'm researching trivia while running deliberately over-the-top games.
(I don't know whether you're familiar with Exalted or Feng Shui 2, but imagine a game where your PCs stats were the default for a starting character, and you have FS2. It's a game emulating Hong Kong action movies, after all. Somehow, I manage to get knowledge of how sucker punching happens into it, and it's to the benefit of the game).
Still, unless you rely on all the Referees being "generalists", it's better if the game designers do the heavy lifting. As an example, I'd give you Artesia and Legends of the Wulin. Nobody reminds you to do ritual purification before entering the temple, when playing Artesia. You just get a penalty to your communion rolls, which keep you centered and balanced among other stuff. Nobody reminds you to consult a predictionist with bad reputation in Legend of the Wulin before engaging a major enemy, either. You just want to stick a penalty on your likely enemies:D!

Lots of typing ahead.


Courtrai is one of the exceptions that proves the concept. I specifically put this kind of thing into my rules, along with caltrops, stakes, and other such devices. Very helpful, assuming that you have time to deploy them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 30, 2015, 12:03:18 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;838726
1, 2 and 3, got that. I need some more materials, or making it up myself.
I get the feeling that the latter would be in line with what the Professor would have expected from any Referee.
Also, religions and sects have started over more stupid things than liking fish, so I find that surprisingly fitting (though I doubt I'd agree with your logic, the goal of any religion being to emulate the god or goddess' essence).

4.-7. Glad I've got that right. Seems like my mental pattern for Tsoyliani society is at least partially right.


Agreed. Make something up; Phil did it all the time, like when Eyloa the Wizard got turned into a talking blue fish by Lord Fu Hsi. Imagine me having to carry his little piscene grumpiness around in a custom glass bowl for several month's worth of adventures; he looked like those grump beta fish you can find at all pet stores, the ones with the long flowing fins. Since they are air breathers, Elyoa - being a player character - kept trying to cast spells, with predictable results. He also wouldn't shut up, and finally got to be a sort of minor god, The Talking Blue Fish, and had a temple / shrine dedicated to him in Khirgar. There's even a gate with his image in tile.

I had my revenge, though. I had a glass blower make him a little temple for his bowl...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 30, 2015, 12:06:45 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838775
Yep; I've had much the same experience; what baffles me is the reaction to the discovery that some of us old farts are still alive and still gaming.
Kids...what ya gonna do? Can't get them to stay off the damn lawn, can't get them to mow the damn lawn. ;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 30, 2015, 12:06:45 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;838729
1. I can only say you put much more effort than me in props.

2. Agreed.

3. That's interesting. Too bad you don't have tips on how it can be learned.
Also, you'd suck as a criminal, one fingerprint and that's it:)!
That's a compliment, in case anyone is wondering;).

4. I wasn't there, no idea how it was intended. Me, I think that the ability of some of us to derive pleasure from or despite of the suffering of characters is what makes grimdark fun.

5. Too bad. How often can you say you've eaten your wife and not have it sound gross?

6. It reminds me of some contemporary gaming companies for some reason...
 
7. Well, I've had experience only with people that think being able to speak a made-up language made them somehow better...so it's on them that I find the idea amusing.
It doesn't help that their attempt to explain how much better people can be for speaking languages of a nameless property (NOT Tekumel) crashed hard when we discovered that I speak more real world languages than the made-up and real-world tongues mastered by the guy promoting the idea...:D
So yeah, chalk it up to stupid fans. Besides, if I want to use another language, I'd just learn spoken Chinese or German, and put it to use as a Tekumeli tongue. I've done that with French, when I knew nobody but me in the group speaks French.

8. Well, I'm not a Star Trek fan, so can't comment. I just quoted almost verbatim the reply of one of my players.

9. I promise to be amused, as long as you promise to not stop trying;)!


1. I'm a model builder; what can I say? :) I love props, just like Phil did, and I've been accumulating them for some forty years; I have a basement full of this kind of thing.

Agreed with the rest of your points, too; very trenchant observations!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 30, 2015, 12:12:03 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838768
Followers of Karakan know that the proper way to cook fish is to hang it on the lightning attractors and let the God decide how it should be cooked.

Rumors that Chirine and his pals used to lounge about atop the temple of Vimuhla and place bets on which sacrifice to Karakan would get zotzed by the God next are entirely true.


Well, yes, especially during the dry season. We did consider it very unsporting and quite gauche to ask the Temple of Avanthe to conjure up a little thunderstorm right over the Temple of Karakan, just to get their hopes up...

The running joke over at our temple was that you could die of old age, if you were waiting to be sacrificed to Lord Karakan; it seemed to be a pretty cushy job, just lying there on the altar for months and getting fed three times a day and trying not to get bored...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: TheShadow on June 30, 2015, 12:30:24 AM
Fantastic thread. Thanks Chirine, Old Geezer, and all those asking questions!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 30, 2015, 06:00:47 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838777
Grilling. It's the only way. Once the Sacred Spices have been applied to purify the sacrifice, of course. A little drawn butter also pleases the Lord of Flame, too.

Lord Vimuhla is very understanding though. If you are stuck on the damn boat with Harchar for six months, all is forgiven.

Lord Vimuhla, master of the Flame, is forgiving:D?
I can associate many qualities with Flame and Change. Charm, Style, Aggressivity, Sexuality, Unfetteredness...but not Forgiveness.
(If that's canonical, either I'd need it explained, or My Tekumel Is Going To Differ. As do all of my settings, anyway).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838776
We're working on it.

I genuinely don't know if my play style is transferable or even teachable. I try as much as I can to explain how and why what I'm doing, which is why I have the blog, the You Tube, and the Photobucket outlets.

As for the lights coming on, yes, I do get that on occasion. This past year's gary Con Tekumel RPG had that, from all of the players. Ask OG; he was there. It was one heck of a game - I had the fight of my life!

You're referring to a kind of Frei Kriegspiel, right?
I'd say it's transferable. You just need to have a Referee that's ready to adopt it and can do the heavy lifting.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838780
Courtrai is one of the exceptions that proves the concept. I specifically put this kind of thing into my rules, along with caltrops, stakes, and other such devices. Very helpful, assuming that you have time to deploy them.

Wait, now, you (and OG) were referring to Courtrai, 1302, right?
Then I don't know how it's relevant, because troops there had pikes, and terrain advantage (all the stuff I was thinking of, except lassos and trenches, in fact). And you said this makes them heavier troops, so it's no longer relevant.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838781
Agreed. Make something up; Phil did it all the time, like when Eyloa the Wizard got turned into a talking blue fish by Lord Fu Hsi. Imagine me having to carry his little piscene grumpiness around in a custom glass bowl for several month's worth of adventures; he looked like those grump beta fish you can find at all pet stores, the ones with the long flowing fins. Since they are air breathers, Elyoa - being a player character - kept trying to cast spells, with predictable results. He also wouldn't shut up, and finally got to be a sort of minor god, The Talking Blue Fish, and had a temple / shrine dedicated to him in Khirgar. There's even a gate with his image in tile.

I had my revenge, though. I had a glass blower make him a little temple for his bowl...

What would be the results of trying to cast in a polymorphed form? Do they depend on gestures so much, or can it be circumvented with sufficient concentration:)?
And I think the glass blower part was to be expected;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838784
1. I'm a model builder; what can I say? :) I love props, just like Phil did, and I've been accumulating them for some forty years; I have a basement full of this kind of thing.

Agreed with the rest of your points, too; very trenchant observations!

Yeah, I get the love for props.
I just don't have the physical space to store them. What can I say?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838786
Well, yes, especially during the dry season. We did consider it very unsporting and quite gauche to ask the Temple of Avanthe to conjure up a little thunderstorm right over the Temple of Karakan, just to get their hopes up...

The running joke over at our temple was that you could die of old age, if you were waiting to be sacrificed to Lord Karakan; it seemed to be a pretty cushy job, just lying there on the altar for months and getting fed three times a day and trying not to get bored...

Ok, now I'm totally putting a god in some setting where the temple has waiting lists for people willing to be sacrificed:D!

Quote from: The_Shadow;838789
Fantastic thread. Thanks Chirine, Old Geezer, and all those asking questions!

You should ask questions, too;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 30, 2015, 12:21:05 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;838825
Lord Vimuhla, master of the Flame, is forgiving:D?
I can associate many qualities with Flame and Change. Charm, Style, Aggressivity, Sexuality, Unfetteredness...but not Forgiveness.
(If that's canonical, either I'd need it explained, or My Tekumel Is Going To Differ. As do all of my settings, anyway).


In my experience, Lord Vimuhla has always been pretty reasonable - but then, I am also one of those people who believes that the gods help those who help themselves. I was always a 'man of my hands', to use the Scots phrase, and lord Vimuhla always seemed to appreciate that; he/she/it tended to be a lot more lenient when it came to formal observances and such.

Basically, I used to roll very, very high for Phil when the question came up. :)

And I could always be counted on for very high casualties amongst the enemy, when we got into fights, something which always went over very well with the Lord of Flame.

(As an amusing aside, I was once getting some hassle at Gen Con from some D&D guys for being an 'Evil High Priest' under the rules. Gary Gygax, who had been listening to the discussion, pointed out that in his Greyhawk, I would be considered a paladin as I was a faithful follower of my deity and a pillar of my Temple - 'Lawful Evil', if you would - and that kind of stopped them cold.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 30, 2015, 12:27:43 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;838825
You're referring to a kind of Frei Kriegspiel, right?
I'd say it's transferable. You just need to have a Referee that's ready to adopt it and can do the heavy lifting.


Well, I honestly don't know. The Gary Con game was billed as an RPG, using EPT as the rules, and I ran it like I normally do - and have been doing for the last thirty-some years. The players were astonished, from the looks on their faces; they'd never seen anything like this, I gathered. I had learned these things from the Big Three:

Phil: Know your period, know your material, know your world-setting;
Gary: Know your game, know your mechanics, know how to prepare the battlefield;
Dave: Know your limitations, know your table talk, and know how to pace the game.

From all three: Keep the game moving along at a sharp pace - don't get bogged down in detail or mechanics.

I don't know if that would transfer or not...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 30, 2015, 12:36:27 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;838825

Wait, now, you (and OG) were referring to Courtrai, 1302, right?
Then I don't know how it's relevant, because troops there had pikes, and terrain advantage (all the stuff I was thinking of, except lassos and trenches, in fact). And you said this makes them heavier troops, so it's no longer relevant.


Well, I am speaking from the standpoint of game design. Courtrai is a data point, along with many other period battles, that gives us an idea of how the battle field actually 'worked'. Hastings, Towton, Nicopolis, Acre, Delhi, etc. also provide those data points for establishing what seems to work and what does not. From there, you can build your 'bell curve' for inherent military probabilities - troop training, armor, weapons, morale, supply, terrain, weather, time of day, and other items all add their own factors / modifiers to the situation.

For me, this is a big part of game theory - the number-crunching that goes on 'behind the scenes' to establish what is likely to happen on the battlefield. Sure, there are always going to be rare exceptions - heroic last stands, surprise coups, unexpected delays, and surprise failures. These can all be accounted for in the numbers - at the opposite ends of the bell curve, if you will.

I've noticed, over the years, that I do thing kind of thing more or less instinctively - I suspect OG does it as well, as we both come out of the same cultural background in our gaming. Going back and describing the process is the hard part, I think! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 30, 2015, 12:41:19 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;838825

What would be the results of trying to cast in a polymorphed form? Do they depend on gestures so much, or can it be circumvented with sufficient concentration:)?
And I think the glass blower part was to be expected;).


'Ritual' spells were a disaster; the compromised DEX scores were abysmal. 'Psychic' spells usually went off all right, but as these are the less effective ones in melees having the Blue Fish as a magic-user was simply asking for trouble. And, since Eyloa was a pretty snarky player most of the time, one could not suggest that he should just chill out and watch the world go by from his bowl.

It made life very interesting, until we could get him changed bak. He was still as annoying as ever, but at least he could cast spells.

It was a nice little castle, too. I later added a nice glass fish to his shrine in his temple in Khirgar, too... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 30, 2015, 12:43:46 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;838825

Yeah, I get the love for props.
I just don't have the physical space to store them. What can I say?


Don't feel that you need to apologize! Props are not vital for games; they are just another tool for the GM, like miniatures.

I'm lucky that I have the space, and a very understanding spouse; we've also been in this same house for the past 25 years, and that stability also heps as well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 30, 2015, 12:45:11 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;838825

Ok, now I'm totally putting a god in some setting where the temple has waiting lists for people willing to be sacrificed:D!


You should ask questions, too;)!


Monty Python's "Life of Brian". There's a waiting list.

And yes, feel free to ask questions!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 30, 2015, 03:51:26 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;838863
In my experience, Lord Vimuhla has always been pretty reasonable - but then, I am also one of those people who believes that the gods help those who help themselves. I was always a 'man of my hands', to use the Scots phrase, and lord Vimuhla always seemed to appreciate that; he/she/it tended to be a lot more lenient when it came to formal observances and such.

And I could always be counted on for very high casualties amongst the enemy, when we got into fights, something which always went over very well with the Lord of Flame.

You would have done very well in my games, I suspect:D! Well, at least I can tell that attitude reminds of some of my more successful players.

Quote
(As an amusing aside, I was once getting some hassle at Gen Con from some D&D guys for being an 'Evil High Priest' under the rules. Gary Gygax, who had been listening to the discussion, pointed out that in his Greyhawk, I would be considered a paladin as I was a faithful follower of my deity and a pillar of my Temple - 'Lawful Evil', if you would - and that kind of stopped them cold.)

I get Gygax's logic, though I don't necessarily agree on the alignment point.
Still, what's actually unclear here is, why did those guys hassle you for being an "Evil High Priest"?
I mean, that describes pretty well at least one of my characters in historical games (inspired by Aramis, I must admit).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838866
Well, I honestly don't know. The Gary Con game was billed as an RPG, using EPT as the rules, and I ran it like I normally do - and have been doing for the last thirty-some years. The players were astonished, from the looks on their faces; they'd never seen anything like this, I gathered. I had learned these things from the Big Three:

Phil: Know your period, know your material, know your world-setting;
Gary: Know your game, know your mechanics, know how to prepare the battlefield;
Dave: Know your limitations, know your table talk, and know how to pace the game.

From all three: Keep the game moving along at a sharp pace - don't get bogged down in detail or mechanics.

I don't know if that would transfer or not...

I've always called someone that can do that "a good GM". Sure, you get better with experience in running games, but experience helps in everything!
(Knowing how to pace the game and preparing the battlefield are the things I have most issues with, personally).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838867
Well, I am speaking from the standpoint of game design. Courtrai is a data point, along with many other period battles, that gives us an idea of how the battle field actually 'worked'. Hastings, Towton, Nicopolis, Acre, Delhi, etc. also provide those data points for establishing what seems to work and what does not. From there, you can build your 'bell curve' for inherent military probabilities - troop training, armor, weapons, morale, supply, terrain, weather, time of day, and other items all add their own factors / modifiers to the situation.

For me, this is a big part of game theory - the number-crunching that goes on 'behind the scenes' to establish what is likely to happen on the battlefield. Sure, there are always going to be rare exceptions - heroic last stands, surprise coups, unexpected delays, and surprise failures. These can all be accounted for in the numbers - at the opposite ends of the bell curve, if you will.

I've noticed, over the years, that I do thing kind of thing more or less instinctively - I suspect OG does it as well, as we both come out of the same cultural background in our gaming. Going back and describing the process is the hard part, I think! :)

Ahem, I've always followed more or less the same approach - collect data points, analyze probabilities, translate into mechanics. Except I was using it for GMing purposes.
After all, if I need to make a ruling for a game, it better be a good ruling:)!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838870
'Ritual' spells were a disaster; the compromised DEX scores were abysmal. 'Psychic' spells usually went off all right, but as these are the less effective ones in melees having the Blue Fish as a magic-user was simply asking for trouble. And, since Eyloa was a pretty snarky player most of the time, one could not suggest that he should just chill out and watch the world go by from his bowl.

It made life very interesting, until we could get him changed bak. He was still as annoying as ever, but at least he could cast spells.

It was a nice little castle, too. I later added a nice glass fish to his shrine in his temple in Khirgar, too... :)

OK, maybe you should tell us that story. How did you manage to make him a god;)?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838873
Don't feel that you need to apologize! Props are not vital for games; they are just another tool for the GM, like miniatures.

I'm lucky that I have the space, and a very understanding spouse; we've also been in this same house for the past 25 years, and that stability also heps as well.

Well, we don't even live on the same continent. As a general rule, houses tend to be smaller here, from what I can tell.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838874
Monty Python's "Life of Brian". There's a waiting list.

I admit to my deliberate, almost complete ignorance of Monty Python.
Then again, it really helps my GMing, which is why I'm taking care to maintain it:p! See, if I don't recognize an OOC pun, I can't get distracted by it and tend to just assume it's a not really successful attempt at a joke.
Some months of this treatment, and people just stop making Monthy Python references - which, from what I hear, is something of an achievement:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 30, 2015, 11:27:29 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;838825

Wait, now, you (and OG) were referring to Courtrai, 1302, right?
Then I don't know how it's relevant, because troops there had pikes, and terrain advantage (all the stuff I was thinking of, except lassos and trenches, in fact). And you said this makes them heavier troops, so it's no longer relevant.


In some abstract rules sets, including CHAINMAIL 1:20, troop types deal more with capability than equipment.

E.G.

 "Swiss/Landsknechte attacking in close formation ( 5 x 2 figures minimum) fight as Armored Foot, with extra die for weapons. For every two men so attacking an additional "mass shock" die is added. When defending in close order (1" or less apart), with pole arms facing the enemy, they are treated as Heavy Foot. If attacked in flank or rear, or when in open order, they are treated as Light Foot."


CHAINMAIL 3rd edition P. 40
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 01, 2015, 05:00:55 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;838906
You would have done very well in my games, I suspect:D! Well, at least I can tell that attitude reminds of some of my more successful players.


I get Gygax's logic, though I don't necessarily agree on the alignment point.
Still, what's actually unclear here is, why did those guys hassle you for being an "Evil High Priest"?
I mean, that describes pretty well at least one of my characters in historical games (inspired by Aramis, I must admit).


I've always called someone that can do that "a good GM". Sure, you get better with experience in running games, but experience helps in everything!
(Knowing how to pace the game and preparing the battlefield are the things I have most issues with, personally).


Ahem, I've always followed more or less the same approach - collect data points, analyze probabilities, translate into mechanics. Except I was using it for GMing purposes.
After all, if I need to make a ruling for a game, it better be a good ruling:)!


OK, maybe you should tell us that story. How did you manage to make him a god;)?


Well, we don't even live on the same continent. As a general rule, houses tend to be smaller here, from what I can tell.


I admit to my deliberate, almost complete ignorance of Monty Python.
Then again, it really helps my GMing, which is why I'm taking care to maintain it:p! See, if I don't recognize an OOC pun, I can't get distracted by it and tend to just assume it's a not really successful attempt at a joke.
Some months of this treatment, and people just stop making Monthy Python references - which, from what I hear, is something of an achievement:D!


1. Thank you! I think you would have fit right in at Coffman Union, too!

2. Well, it's the 'Evil' part; in the original D&D gameplay in the late 1970's 'Evil' characters were all pretty much cardboard cut-out NPCs and considered fair game for PCs, who were all - almost by definition - The Good Guys. Here I am, playing an Evil High Priest, doing all the nasty stuff reviled in D&D; human sacrifice, hanging out with courtesans, blasting people into oblivion, leading armies of Evil across the land, etc. (The usual things a ranking Priest of Vimuhla does in his day job; I was also an errand boy for the Imperium in my spare time.) This always caused a ruckus at Gen Con, as players' brains just stopped when the subject came  up in conversation - it was one of the things that got Tekumel the reputation that it seems to have.

Phil pointed out in an interview once that all of the religions of the Five Empires are 'evil', in comparison to Western Christianity, especially as is often practiced here in the upper Midwest. Culturally, Tekumel's religions are much closer theologically and ethically to non-Western ones, which should be no surprise given Phil's cultural background. (See also The Great Satanic D&D Scare; I had to live through that.) Tekumel, Phil once said, is Mughal India and not Victorian England - hence the issues that quite a few people had with my PC.

3. Agreed; my point, exactly.

4. I didn't make him a god; the locals took one look at the talking fish and got the idea by themselves on what was a spectactular dice roll by Phil for their reactions to this rather unusual happening in the marketplace in the city of Khirgar. It was a wonder, as people said at the time, and an obvious manifestation of the divine. (Rather like the events in "Life of Brian", where things go badly for a Zealot resistance fighter while being chased by the Romans, actually.) There is still a little shrine to The Blue Fish in Khirgar, just of the Street of The Blue Fish which happens to be behind the Gate of The Blue Fish (you can see a pattern, here), where devotees of the Temple of Ksarul go to ask for The Blue Fish's help and ask him to use his influence with the Doomed Prince of the Blue Room. On what, I have no idea; I just make a donation to help with the up-keep of the shrine. They do sell little blue ceramic amulets there, which are supposed to protect one from drowning.

5. Yes; my UK friends have made a cult of garden sheds, as a result.

6. The Pythons are one of those things we here in the US gaming scene grew up with, like the Tom Baker 'Dr. Who" episodes. (like the Sisterhood of Karn: "Sacred Flame! Sacred Fire!" You can guess who showed up very shortly at the Temple of Vimuhla with their chanting...) They are a handy source of surreal comic relief when the dice call for such...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 01, 2015, 05:01:28 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838971
In some abstract rules sets, including CHAINMAIL 1:20, troop types deal more with capability than equipment.

E.G.

 "Swiss/Landsknechte attacking in close formation ( 5 x 2 figures minimum) fight as Armored Foot, with extra die for weapons. For every two men so attacking an additional "mass shock" die is added. When defending in close order (1" or less apart), with pole arms facing the enemy, they are treated as Heavy Foot. If attacked in flank or rear, or when in open order, they are treated as Light Foot."


CHAINMAIL 3rd edition P. 40


And there you go! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 01, 2015, 09:19:37 AM
Did you ever start as a "barbarian in a boat at the docks of Jakalla"?

When you run games, do you ever start players that way?

What has given you the most favorable response from new players?
(New to Tekumel and/or new to your gaming style.)

From the description of your later games, of being among the mighty, would the rules for Honor + Intrigue be a good fit?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 01, 2015, 10:46:46 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;839001

6. The Pythons are one of those things we here in the US gaming scene grew up with, like the Tom Baker 'Dr. Who" episodes. (like the Sisterhood of Karn: "Sacred Flame! Sacred Fire!" You can guess who showed up very shortly at the Temple of Vimuhla with their chanting...) They are a handy source of surreal comic relief when the dice call for such...


:D  Ah, yes, "The Brain of Morbius."

Phil was an avid Dr. Who fan, back when it was on at 11:30 PM on Public TV.  I remember us all clustering around the little TV in the kitchen.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 01, 2015, 11:23:22 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;839033
Did you ever start as a "barbarian in a boat at the docks of Jakalla"?

When you run games, do you ever start players that way?

What has given you the most favorable response from new players?
(New to Tekumel and/or new to your gaming style.)

From the description of your later games, of being among the mighty, would the rules for Honor + Intrigue be a good fit?
=


No. When I started playing, the original group had been going for about two years, and had gone up to about third to sixth level (more or less; Phil didn't worry about 'level', very much.) So, Phil rolled a four-sider and told me that I should be a third-level PC, in order to be able to play on the same terms as the rest of the group. I was the last PC rolled up in his campaign in EPT:

STR: 86 INT: 98 CON: 97 PSY: 00 DEX: 89 COM: 12

Phil took a look at the dice rolls, and told me that if I wasn't going to be a magic user he'd smack me up the side of the head. He meant it, too. So, I was 'born', and we were off and running.

Again, no, unless the players very specifically request that I do so. The vast majority of people I get to play with want to get into the world setting as quickly as possible, and this approach can take a while.

What I do, and what has worked very, very well over the past 15 years that I've been running the current group, Is to do the same as Phil did - have the players roll for PCs between first and third level, in whatever set of rules they like. (I should note that I have PCs rolled up in EPT, S&G, "Gardaisiyal", and T:EPT; I do the number crunching 'off-stage' - pay no attention to the computer behind the curtains...)

I then give the players some light 'backstory'; they are the 'country cousins', sent by their clans to their relatives in 'The Big City' to get an education and some finishing, as well as do some networking and influence-peddling. This allows for the players not knowing much about the world-setting, and then being able to let them learn about it in very short order; I always allow them to read the background materials, which is why I have so many bookshelves in the game room, and this also allows for the players knowing more then maybe they really should.

This has seemed to work out very well, over the years, and I am told by the players that they like this approach. I have had players ask about playing non-humans, and I'll do this if they can demonstrate some 'acting ability'; I've had very good Tinaliya and Pe Choi, for example. Players get to go off on 'adventures', have a good time, and learn about the world all in one campaign, and it's seemed to worked for both me and them.

I've never read the set of rules that you mention. Where can I find a copy, please? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 01, 2015, 11:25:03 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;839044
:D  Ah, yes, "The Brain of Morbius."

Phil was an avid Dr. Who fan, back when it was on at 11:30 PM on Public TV.  I remember us all clustering around the little TV in the kitchen.


And remember when KCTA moved it to the 7:00 p.m. time slot on Thursdays, right before the game sessions, and we'd all dread what phil would see on the telly? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 01, 2015, 11:45:07 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;839033

From the description of your later games, of being among the mighty, would the rules for Honor + Intrigue be a good fit?
=


Google being my friend, I've now had a look at this set of rules and I think one could certainly use a lot of the system to play in the Tekumel world-setting.

What I find fascinating - and this is not intended to be any sort of negatve response to your very good question! - is that the existence of this kind of rules set is filling a need in the market. Not that I should be surprised - I go all the way back to Mark Pettigrew's "Flashing Blades", for heaven's sake - but back in our day we sort of absorbed this kind of thing by osmosis. we had all seen innumerable swashbuckler movies, over the years, and we all sort of assumed that that was the kind of thing we were doing - right up there with Conan, Brak mac Morn, Fafherd, and the Grey Mouser. Not that we considered ourselves anywhere nearly as good as those seasons professionals, but they were our lodestones.

Like the time we wanted to have a quiet chat amongst ourselves while at the siege of Sunraya, during the NE Frontier campaign, so we PCs had a picnic lunch packed and trotted off to one of the bastions that was still in contention. We had a great time - we played this just like the scene in "Four Musketeers", including OG observing "This wine just does not travel very well!" when the neck of the bottle was shot off by a hostile crossbowman. (Lucky NPC dice roll, there.)

I think it's the time factor; back then, we didn't have the wealth of rules sets available today, so we had to use other models of play...

Fascinating...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 01, 2015, 12:08:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;839047
And remember when KCTA moved it to the 7:00 p.m. time slot on Thursdays, right before the game sessions, and we'd all dread what phil would see on the telly? :)


:D:D:eek:

Quote from: chirine ba kal;839054
We had a great time - we played this just like the scene in "Four Musketeers", including OG observing "This wine just does not travel very well!" when the neck of the bottle was shot off by a hostile crossbowman. (Lucky NPC dice roll, there.).


:D :D :D

Phil was not afraid to buckle a swash or two.  Remember how delighted he was by the Dino De Laurentis version of "Flash Gordon?"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 01, 2015, 12:14:35 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;839057
:D:D:eek:

:D :D :D

Phil was not afraid to buckle a swash or two.  Remember how delighted he was by the Dino De Laurentis version of "Flash Gordon?"


Well, yes! He'd grown up with the serials and the comics, and seeing it all in full over-the-top color simply filled him with joy and happiness. And we were off in some damn spaceship right afterwards, too...

I'm just fascinated how the passage of the decades has made a difference in how people play games... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 01, 2015, 01:54:51 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;838971
In some abstract rules sets, including CHAINMAIL 1:20, troop types deal more with capability than equipment.

E.G.

 "Swiss/Landsknechte attacking in close formation ( 5 x 2 figures minimum) fight as Armored Foot, with extra die for weapons. For every two men so attacking an additional "mass shock" die is added. When defending in close order (1" or less apart), with pole arms facing the enemy, they are treated as Heavy Foot. If attacked in flank or rear, or when in open order, they are treated as Light Foot."


CHAINMAIL 3rd edition P. 40

Thanks for the explanation!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 01, 2015, 02:17:13 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;839001
1. Thank you! I think you would have fit right in at Coffman Union, too!

I count that as high praise! Thank you for having such a high opinion of my not humble enough self!

Quote
2. Well, it's the 'Evil' part; in the original D&D gameplay in the late 1970's 'Evil' characters were all pretty much cardboard cut-out NPCs and considered fair game for PCs, who were all - almost by definition - The Good Guys. Here I am, playing an Evil High Priest, doing all the nasty stuff reviled in D&D; human sacrifice, hanging out with courtesans, blasting people into oblivion, leading armies of Evil across the land, etc. (The usual things a ranking Priest of Vimuhla does in his day job; I was also an errand boy for the Imperium in my spare time.) This always caused a ruckus at Gen Con, as players' brains just stopped when the subject came  up in conversation - it was one of the things that got Tekumel the reputation that it seems to have.

My wife just had a good laugh at this list of unacceptable behaviours. She's known for considering every single one of them part of the standard operating procedure for her PCs. Me too, come to think of it. And our players are learning!
Quote

Phil pointed out in an interview once that all of the religions of the Five Empires are 'evil', in comparison to Western Christianity, especially as is often practiced here in the upper Midwest. Culturally, Tekumel's religions are much closer theologically and ethically to non-Western ones, which should be no surprise given Phil's cultural background. (See also The Great Satanic D&D Scare; I had to live through that.) Tekumel, Phil once said, is Mughal India and not Victorian England - hence the issues that quite a few people had with my PC.

This cultural background isn't exactly unfamiliar to us, either. I grew up on a mix of Bulgarian, Greek, Indian, Chinese, Scandinavian, German, Japanese and Central Asian tales and legends. So have most of my regular players.
Thing is, these things don't shock us, it's just stuff that has happened and still happens.

Quote
3. Agreed; my point, exactly.

Glad to hear that. Passing on the next...

Quote
4. I didn't make him a god; the locals took one look at the talking fish and got the idea by themselves on what was a spectactular dice roll by Phil for their reactions to this rather unusual happening in the marketplace in the city of Khirgar. It was a wonder, as people said at the time, and an obvious manifestation of the divine. (Rather like the events in "Life of Brian", where things go badly for a Zealot resistance fighter while being chased by the Romans, actually.) There is still a little shrine to The Blue Fish in Khirgar, just of the Street of The Blue Fish which happens to be behind the Gate of The Blue Fish (you can see a pattern, here), where devotees of the Temple of Ksarul go to ask for The Blue Fish's help and ask him to use his influence with the Doomed Prince of the Blue Room. On what, I have no idea; I just make a donation to help with the up-keep of the shrine. They do sell little blue ceramic amulets there, which are supposed to protect one from drowning.

Just one more question. Do the amulets work?

Quote
5. Yes; my UK friends have made a cult of garden sheds, as a result.

No garden around, I can bring stuff only to my country house.

Quote
6. The Pythons are one of those things we here in the US gaming scene grew up with, like the Tom Baker 'Dr. Who" episodes. (like the Sisterhood of Karn: "Sacred Flame! Sacred Fire!" You can guess who showed up very shortly at the Temple of Vimuhla with their chanting...) They are a handy source of surreal comic relief when the dice call for such...

Well, I get that. I just don't want players mentioning them too often on the table!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 01, 2015, 02:33:22 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;839072
Just one more question. Do the amulets work?
Well Chirine ba Kal hasn't drowned, has he?

That whole fish bit reminds me of Issek of the Jug.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 01, 2015, 03:18:36 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;839054
Google being my friend, I've now had a look at this set of rules and I think one could certainly use a lot of the system to play in the Tekumel world-setting.

What I find fascinating - and this is not intended to be any sort of negatve response to your very good question! - is that the existence of this kind of rules set is filling a need in the market. Not that I should be surprised - I go all the way back to Mark Pettigrew's "Flashing Blades", for heaven's sake - but back in our day we sort of absorbed this kind of thing by osmosis. we had all seen innumerable swashbuckler movies, over the years, and we all sort of assumed that that was the kind of thing we were doing - right up there with Conan, Brak mac Morn, Fafherd, and the Grey Mouser. Not that we considered ourselves anywhere nearly as good as those seasons professionals, but they were our lodestones.

Like the time we wanted to have a quiet chat amongst ourselves while at the siege of Sunraya, during the NE Frontier campaign, so we PCs had a picnic lunch packed and trotted off to one of the bastions that was still in contention. We had a great time - we played this just like the scene in "Four Musketeers", including OG observing "This wine just does not travel very well!" when the neck of the bottle was shot off by a hostile crossbowman. (Lucky NPC dice roll, there.)

I think it's the time factor; back then, we didn't have the wealth of rules sets available today, so we had to use other models of play...

Fascinating...

Well, swashbuckling is something that was obviously popular with your generation. It's popular with people my age as well, but not with people several years older.
Today, the place of the swashbuckling and swords and sorcery is mostly taken by urba fantasy, according to my empirical observations.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 01, 2015, 04:49:06 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;839072
I count that as high praise! Thank you for having such a high opinion of my not humble enough self!


My wife just had a good laugh at this list of unacceptable behaviours. She's known for considering every single one of them part of the standard operating procedure for her PCs. Me too, come to think of it. And our players are learning!

This cultural background isn't exactly unfamiliar to us, either. I grew up on a mix of Bulgarian, Greek, Indian, Chinese, Scandinavian, German, Japanese and Central Asian tales and legends. So have most of my regular players.
Thing is, these things don't shock us, it's just stuff that has happened and still happens.


Glad to hear that. Passing on the next...


Just one more question. Do the amulets work?


No garden around, I can bring stuff only to my country house.


Well, I get that. I just don't want players mentioning them too often on the table!


You're welcome!

That's a pretty funny observation by your wife - back in the day, we were considered quite the nasty sorts of people by most gamers. Liked the observation about the broad cultural basis, too; I think that has a lot to do with our gaming, as we learned more and more.

Well, usually they do, but also usually the only way to find out is by taking some pretty bad risks. The 'Amulet of Protection Against the Grey Hand' is a really useful amulet, as the Grey Hand is the only way to get really, positively, absolutely dead on Tekuemel - but the only really certain way to see if the thing works is to have somebody use the spell on you while you're wearing it. Other amulets are less dangerous, but also less useful / powerful.

I can understand your point re the Pythons! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 01, 2015, 04:55:11 PM
Quote from: Bren;839076
Well Chirine ba Kal hasn't drowned, has he?

That whole fish bit reminds me of Issek of the Jug.


Nope; in general, one does not go swimming in open water on Tekumel if one is in one's right mind. One is usually eaten by something with big sharp pointy teeth (which beings Tekumel is quite overstocked with) in very short order. The one time the Amulet of the Blue Fish got used was when Arneson drove the boat into the Southern Continent (he was a great sailor, but a terrible navigator), our ship got wrecked on the rocks, and I had to go into the drink to rescue Kathy. It was awful; Chirine is a terrible swimmer, but the amulet seemed to do the trick and she got rescued.

And yes, you are right! I think that may have been shortly after Phil met Fritz Leiber at one of the very early Gen Cons, one at Horticultural hall.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 01, 2015, 04:56:06 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;839078
Well, swashbuckling is something that was obviously popular with your generation. It's popular with people my age as well, but not with people several years older.
Today, the place of the swashbuckling and swords and sorcery is mostly taken by urba fantasy, according to my empirical observations.


I'd agree with this; shifts in interests and tastes over time, and all that... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 01, 2015, 05:02:13 PM
I'm still thinking about "Honor and Intrigue", too. It looks like a really handy set of tools for the GM to do a really good job of presenting things that are often hard to present in game terms. Running / playing 'Intrigues' can be difficult; coming up with the plots and factions dies take some time and effort, and I think that some sort of record-keeping to keep track of the plotting and skulduggery is going to be vital.

Thank you for the tip about this - I learned something new today, which is a wonderful thing! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 01, 2015, 05:45:04 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;839097
I'd agree with this; shifts in interests and tastes over time, and all that... :)
My point is that this is more about a shift in trappings. Coming back to my example, I can think of a few examples of urban fantasy that were borrowing the essence of genres like noir and swashbuckling. The trappings of private eyes and musketeers would be less familiar to people raised on these stories, which might well like essentially the same things. Being a hero(ine) that uses guile and violence to live according to his own code (which might not be society's code), however, wouldn't be anything new.
Except one example might be a pirate, while another is a werewolf.
That's how traditions reinvent themselves, IME.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;839098
I'm still thinking about "Honor and Intrigue", too. It looks like a really handy set of tools for the GM to do a really good job of presenting things that are often hard to present in game terms. Running / playing 'Intrigues' can be difficult; coming up with the plots and factions dies take some time and effort, and I think that some sort of record-keeping to keep track of the plotting and skulduggery is going to be vital.

Thank you for the tip about this - I learned something new today, which is a wonderful thing! :)
Yeah, H+I is a wonderful example of a game that would guide you even if you were less familiar with the genre.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 01, 2015, 05:54:45 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;839094
You're welcome!

That's a pretty funny observation by your wife - back in the day, we were considered quite the nasty sorts of people by most gamers. Liked the observation about the broad cultural basis, too; I think that has a lot to do with our gaming, as we learned more and more.

Well, usually they do, but also usually the only way to find out is by taking some pretty bad risks. The 'Amulet of Protection Against the Grey Hand' is a really useful amulet, as the Grey Hand is the only way to get really, positively, absolutely dead on Tekuemel - but the only really certain way to see if the thing works is to have somebody use the spell on you while you're wearing it. Other amulets are less dangerous, but also less useful / powerful.

I can understand your point re the Pythons! :)

Well, there are still those that consider us the nasty kind of players. I just think that more and more people are realising that what you play isn't any kind of reflection of your true self, or of anything else for that matter.

An, the dilemma between testing and suffering the results of a failed test, how well do we know it! All charlatans love it, too, or so I hear.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 02, 2015, 04:25:35 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;839101
My point is that this is more about a shift in trappings. Coming back to my example, I can think of a few examples of urban fantasy that were borrowing the essence of genres like noir and swashbuckling. The trappings of private eyes and musketeers would be less familiar to people raised on these stories, which might well like essentially the same things. Being a hero(ine) that uses guile and violence to live according to his own code (which might not be society's code), however, wouldn't be anything new.
Except one example might be a pirate, while another is a werewolf.
That's how traditions reinvent themselves, IME.


Yeah, H+I is a wonderful example of a game that would guide you even if you were less familiar with the genre.


I think you're right, here; Conan, at least in the original stories, showed many of the same traits as you mention.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 02, 2015, 04:31:05 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;839102
Well, there are still those that consider us the nasty kind of players. I just think that more and more people are realising that what you play isn't any kind of reflection of your true self, or of anything else for that matter.

An, the dilemma between testing and suffering the results of a failed test, how well do we know it! All charlatans love it, too, or so I hear.


Agreed! There's supposed to be am infallible, sure-fire test for Eyes that has been mentioned on the Yahoo Tekumel forum, but I never saw it used at Phil's in his games. I forget how it works in detail, but the essence is that you have a slave hold various objects and try the Eyes out to see what happens. It's a hugely involved and elaborate process that takes all day - and most of the night, too - and I think we just never had any time for it over the years.

I liked your point about charlatans, too; I had a few fake Eyes and amulets offered to me over the years, and most of the time it was pretty obvious that they were fakes. Deal with the reputable merchants, I always said, and never ever assume anything from anybody.

I made some 'prop' Eyes back a while ago, just for fun; I suppose I should get back into the workshop and make some more... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 05, 2015, 09:38:53 AM
How bureaucratic is your version of the world?
I have gotten the impression that the culture has very controlled like historical Asian cultures. Is this a wrong impression?

Do levels 1 - 3 characters have to get permission to do anything out of their "ordinary"?  How about the average person?

At level 3 and above, how much are the characters "loose cannons" or are they eccentric (or should they be conforming to social norms)?

At what point (if any) can the characters be eccentric without repercussions?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 05, 2015, 09:40:14 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;839656
How bureaucratic is your version of the world?
I have gotten the impression that the culture has very controlled like historical Asian cultures. Is this a wrong impression?

Do levels 1 - 3 characters have to get permission to do anything out of their "ordinary"?  How about the average person?

At level 3 and above, how much are the characters "loose cannons" or are they eccentric (or should they be conforming to social norms)?

At what point (if any) can the characters be eccentric without repercussions?
=

Well, I do what Phil did, on the theory that if was good enough for him it's good enough for me.

1. Depends on where you are. Mu'ugalavya is very heavy on the paperwork, with everything having to be done in quadruplicate, Livyanu and Tsolyanu a lot less - the happy medium, if you will - with Salarvya being almost chaotically disorganized. Yan Kor is just getting started, so they are at about the same level as the Salarvyani, heading to the level of Tsolyanu.

2. Everybody is a 'loose cannon', in some way or another. The basic social unit is the clan, so individuals can pretty do whatever they want to unless they offend somebody. The clan can only do so much to smooth over somebody being offensive, and usually there's a lot of tolerance for what we'd call eccentrics. A wise player always asks first, and if you have the right attitude and possible the right connections one can do pretty much anything that they want to. In general, no matter what one's level might be, this is the basic social policy. Ask your clan elders; they've been around, and can give you good advice.

Like, "Don't pee on the wall of the Temple; the Temple guards will thrash you pretty good, and we'll laugh. And then make you clean it up, sonny."

3. There are some pretty loose cannons in the literature, like the aristocrat who thinks he's one of the Shen, the big reptile non-humans. He's tolerated because he's filthy stinking rich. Out of quite a few of the Professor's PCs, we all had our eccentric aspects; and as long as we paid our taxes, contributed to the clan, and didn't rebel against the Imperium, nobody really cared about what we did.

4. Players can be as eccentric as all heck, provided that they can pay for any offense that they cause - "shamtla" payments. People generally behave pretty well normally - the Great Concordat is a very powerful social force! - and everyone has the Underworlds (where the Concordat does not apply) as a 'safety valve'.

Yes, the cultures are very controlled in comparison to our Western viewpoint of a 'free and open society', but as long as you don't make trouble for other people and for the social units like the clans, temples, and the governments, the Tekumel I played in was pretty wide open and free-wheeling. [Edit for clarity:]  The mantra of "Don't do stupid things," like you would in real life, and things are pretty easy. There is a much greater degree of 'social responsibility' to Tekumel then there seems to be in the classic RPG world-settings - you don't get "murderhobos" in Tekumel, for example.

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 06, 2015, 02:11:52 PM
I guess it can be played "loosely" then as long as you don't do something that your "modern family" wouldn't like when judged by modern values.

Even "black sheep" usually don't intentionally make the entire family mad at them.
=

In my game I tried to use "fashion" as a visual status indicator for someone that "wasn't from around here" to be able to read.
With the higher the maintenance the higher the person's status.
Such as fabric, cut of the fabric, accessories, hairdo, nail polish, makeup, body paint, etc...
So some things are intrinsically valuable and others represent the required effort required.

Is this something you think would fit the setting?
If not, what would?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 06, 2015, 03:24:21 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;839867
I guess it can be played "loosely" then as long as you don't do something that your "modern family" wouldn't like when judged by modern values.

Even "black sheep" usually don't intentionally make the entire family mad at them.
=

In my game I tried to use "fashion" as a visual status indicator for someone that "wasn't from around here" to be able to read.
With the higher the maintenance the higher the person's status.
Such as fabric, cut of the fabric, accessories, hairdo, nail polish, makeup, body paint, etc...
So some things are intrinsically valuable and others represent the required effort required.

Is this something you think would fit the setting?
If not, what would?
=


Yes, exactly. The 'black sheep' of the family are also the ones that the clans, temples, etc., tend to educate and support as the 'adventurers' of the social group, the ones at the top of the bell curve (usually, in my experience) that are the ones who explore the Underworlds, staff the legions, and lead merchant caravans / trade expeditions into the unknown. Which, with Tekumel, often starts right outside your front door.

'Normal folks', the rest of the family, are quite happy to sit around the clan house and discuss the 'black sheep' in Hushed Tones, agog at the latest scandal or outrage; the clan elders (etc.) will then Think Of Something For The 'Black Sheep To Do'. It makes for some great adventures!

You are also exactly correct about the importance of visual display in the cultures of Tekumel. There is no 'nondescript' clothing; you can read a person's life from what they wear, with the higher the status the more clothes and ornaments they are wearing. Clan and Temple are all shown by wearing the appropriate glyphs on one's costume, which also tell you instantly who and what you're talking to.

The running joke, amongst us very old-timers, is that you an always tell who the secret police are - they're the ones with the most ornate uniforms!

And it's also very finely graded, too; once you get up through the more and more elaborate outfits, up through the 'upper middle class' and into the 'high class' nobility, the costumes become more and more elaborate and use less and less cloth - what little the fashionable noblewoman might be wearing is also the rarest and most expensive stuff available.

Chirine, for example, is instantly recognizable by anyone for what he is - a soldier-priest of the Temple for Vimuhla - by his flame-red tunic and kilt combination, with a leather over-tunic and belt with pouches and 'informal' weapons. In full armor, reserved for the biggest social functions or pitched battles, you can 'read' his career in the inscriptions on the plates - and his collection of scars, from the times he forgot to duck! :)

Wonderful questions - keep them coming!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 06, 2015, 11:36:07 PM
Nobody seems to write Sword & Sorcery any more.  Lieber's first Fafhrd & Grey Mouser story was originally titled "Two Sought Adventure."  What ever happened to adventurers who adventured for the sake of adventure?

On the other hand, if I never read another "Destroy the Evil Magical Doohickey and Save the World" trilogy again, it will be altogether too soon.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 07, 2015, 12:08:00 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;839879
You are also exactly correct about the importance of visual display in the cultures of Tekumel. There is no 'nondescript' clothing; you can read a person's life from what they wear, with the higher the status the more clothes and ornaments they are wearing. Clan and Temple are all shown by wearing the appropriate glyphs on one's costume, which also tell you instantly who and what you're talking to.
For the first couple of months that we played D&D, DMs tended to describe what you saw by title, e.g. "three Swashbucklers" or "four Conjurors" which quickly rise to jokes about the NPCs wearing t-shirts or surcoats with a numeral '5' or the number '3' clearly written on the front. Amazingly descriptions soon changed to the less precise "three men in plate armor" or "four guys in robes."

I guess if we had been on Tekumel we might not have needed to change. Instead we could have just assumed the glyph for five or three were painted on their chlen hide armor or woven into their somewhat utilitarian robes. :p
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 07, 2015, 07:47:35 AM
It is hard enough to give the "feeling of their relative strength" in a setting that is familiar. The example being your Swashbucklers and Conjurers.
How can you do so when everything is alien without obvious clues?

What is wrong with the obvious clues when it is information that characters would know even if the players don't?

At what point in your gaming does "Game" override "Simulation"?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 07, 2015, 07:59:56 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;840015
Nobody seems to write Sword & Sorcery any more.  Lieber's first Fafhrd & Grey Mouser story was originally titled "Two Sought Adventure."  What ever happened to adventurers who adventured for the sake of adventure?

On the other hand, if I never read another "Destroy the Evil Magical Doohickey and Save the World" trilogy again, it will be altogether too soon.


It went out of fashion when Deep Thought and Deep Meaningful Concepts came in. Two guys on the make for some loot and fun just isn't 'intellectual' enough in today's market, I gather. See also your comments on what happened to Tekumel in the mid-1990s in posts here and elsewhere; you've nailed this one down, Glorious General.

I got good news for you, too; I ain't got none of that in "To Serve The Petal Throne", nor do I got any of that magical doohickey world-saving stuff; it's just a bunch of people out to make some money and have some fun. Which you and managed to do, if I recall correctly...

Which is why, I gather a startling number of Serious Tekumel Fans who I've shared sections of the thing with have hated it - "too light-hearted", "makes Tekumel sound like fun", "tl;dr", "should be more grimdark", " too easy to read", and other complaints too numerous to detail here. It's like the way "John Carter" had to have some Serious Angst loaded into the mix; could have done with out that, but then I also like Frazetta's art - and so do my daughters, which simply shows what a bad parent I am for introducing it to them.

Sigh.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 07, 2015, 08:05:27 AM
Quote from: Bren;840022
For the first couple of months that we played D&D, DMs tended to describe what you saw by title, e.g. "three Swashbucklers" or "four Conjurors" which quickly rise to jokes about the NPCs wearing t-shirts or surcoats with a numeral '5' or the number '3' clearly written on the front. Amazingly descriptions soon changed to the less precise "three men in plate armor" or "four guys in robes."

I guess if we had been on Tekumel we might not have needed to change. Instead we could have just assumed the glyph for five or three were painted on their chlen hide armor or woven into their somewhat utilitarian robes. :p


Well, if it moves the game along, then I'm all for it. I used to paint such things on figures' shields, so we could tell them apart. Now, I put a colored dot with a unique number on the base, so we can tell everybody apart. And then I do a 3" x 5" index card for the player or non-player that the figures represents.

Do people use index cards, anymore,? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 07, 2015, 08:11:37 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;840098
It is hard enough to give the "feeling of their relative strength" in a setting that is familiar. The example being your Swashbucklers and Conjurers.
How can you do so when everything is alien without obvious clues?

What is wrong with the obvious clues when it is information that characters would know even if the players don't?

At what point in your gaming does "Game" override "Simulation"?
=


For me, all the time. My approach is that 'simulation' is a tool for game play; the better I can simulate things, the better the game, but I do all the simulation 'off-stage'; if it gets in the way of the flow of the game play, then I tend to streamline the simulation and number-crunching to make the play flow - and the 'immersion' factor - work more smoothly.

Again, for me this is where things like miniatures, graphics, maps, artwork, and other such game aids really come into play. Ask OG just how many times he's let loose with a heartfelt scream of "YOU BASTARD!" over the years, as he and the rest of the players I've worked for suddenly realize what they are up against... :)

I give players information that they would know in the world-setting; I don't hold back on this, as I've found that this makes for much better games. See also the game video on my You Tube channel thingy... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 07, 2015, 06:23:15 PM
Re clothing, etc; there have been several societies, including ancient Sumer and ancient Egypt, where a person's clothing identified them quite precisely; "mid level priest," "low status workman," "royal official with access to the monarch," "wife of important military man," etc.  Phil, knowing this, used it.  There is a difference between "you know this person is a scholar priest of Ksarul of middle status" and "you know this person is a 5th level magic user with 17 hit points blah blah blah."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 07, 2015, 06:25:03 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;840099
"makes Tekumel sound like fun",


Good God, Carruthers, we can't have THAT!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 07, 2015, 06:27:15 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;840103

Again, for me this is where things like miniatures, graphics, maps, artwork, and other such game aids really come into play. Ask OG just how many times he's let loose with a heartfelt scream of "YOU BASTARD!" over the years, as he and the rest of the players I've worked for suddenly realize what they are up against... :)


:D

And I agree with the next paragraph... don't punish players for not knowing what their characters would know easily.  That was another bad trend of Phil falling into the aforementioned Villainous Company, though he did indeed "get better."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 07, 2015, 07:49:54 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;840015
Nobody seems to write Sword & Sorcery any more.  Lieber's first Fafhrd & Grey Mouser story was originally titled "Two Sought Adventure."  What ever happened to adventurers who adventured for the sake of adventure?

On the other hand, if I never read another "Destroy the Evil Magical Doohickey and Save the World" trilogy again, it will be altogether too soon.

Eh, "adventuring for the sake of adventure" might be out of fashion somewhat. "Adventuring to get ahead socially/for vengeance/to fulfill family obligations", however, seems to be the rage. Especially with my players, which are mostly influenced by the newer fantasy.
That might not be S&S as REH did it, but it sure is in the tradition of swashbuckling and the like. And those genres are close cousins. Not to mention, that's how adventuring would likely look in Tekumel.

Admittedly, some GMs run "adventuring for the sake of adventure" in a way that doesn't help the popularity of the idea...



Quote from: chirine ba kal;840102

Do people use index cards, anymore,? :)

I can confirm many do. They seem especially popular with Fate GMs, because the character sheet of any NPC fits on them:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;840103

I give players information that they would know in the world-setting; I don't hold back on this, as I've found that this makes for much better games. See also the game video on my You Tube channel thingy... :)

There are still those that treat such info to be metagaming, I've found.
Suffice it to say, it's a point of view that confuses and vexes me;).

Since you mentioned armour, chirine, are there different fighting schools detailed in the setting lore? Are there known differences in regional (or even caste) styles?
Have such distinctions ever been important in your game?
What real world combat arts do Tekumel arts resemble the most:D?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Spinachcat on July 07, 2015, 08:02:37 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;840103
I give players information that they would know in the world-setting; I don't hold back on this, as I've found that this makes for much better games.


Absolutely!

I find this helps immersion and gameplay. Instead of endless Perception, Knowledge or INT rolls, its better to say "your mage has seen costumes like those before in his studies, they are only worn for rituals invoking the moon gods."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 07, 2015, 08:50:57 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;840098
How can you do so when everything is alien without obvious clues?
Tell the players what their characters would know or can deduce.

Quote
At what point in your gaming does "Game" override "Simulation"?
At the point where simulation is way too much work and stops being entertaining. Since I'm running a historical game, I'm probably pretty far down the simulation curve from the average GM.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;840102
Do people use index cards, anymore,? :)
I stopped after I started including pictures on the character sheets and then switched to MS-Word character sheets. The fact that my penmanship and printing skills have deteriorated has absolutely nothing to do with it. Really. ;)

Quote from: Old Geezer;840264
Re clothing, etc; there have been several societies, including ancient Sumer and ancient Egypt, where a person's clothing identified them quite precisely; "mid level priest," "low status workman," "royal official with access to the monarch," "wife of important military man," etc.  Phil, knowing this, used it.  There is a difference between "you know this person is a scholar priest of Ksarul of middle status" and "you know this person is a 5th level magic user with 17 hit points blah blah blah."
Tekumel always struck me at that sort of society, probably more status conscious, or at least with more hierarchies and levels in the hierarchies than Sumer or Egypt. It's one of the things I like about Tekumel and found fascinating in Man of Gold.

But my example was a more or less faux medieval setting. Being able to tell status to the exact level was just silly. So we changed it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 07, 2015, 11:19:51 PM
Quote from: Bren;840296

But my example was a more or less faux medieval setting. Being able to tell status to the exact level was just silly. So we changed it.


Well, sure.  I just work off the notion that the PCs aren't the only people who go up levels.

"His attire tells you he is rich.  There is a squire bearing a sword on a cushion before him, which tells you he is a knight.  Think he's first level?"

Sumptuary laws are very medieval Anglo-French.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 07, 2015, 11:45:30 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;840325
Well, sure.  I just work off the notion that the PCs aren't the only people who go up levels.

"His attire tells you he is rich.  There is a squire bearing a sword on a cushion before him, which tells you he is a knight.  Think he's first level?"

Sumptuary laws are very medieval Anglo-French.
Yes. Yes. Back when I played level based games NPCs had levels too. And I'm familiar with sumptuary laws.

You don't seem to be grasping what I am saying or you are ignoring it. Knowing he is a knight and thus not first level is way different than knowing the exact level and class of both the knight and his squire. It's the difference between this

   "You can see that the warrior wears a fine surcoat with a coat of arms over a full mail coat that you can see has been repaired at least once by an expert smith, the pommel of his sword has a gem set in it, but you can tell from the sweat stains on the hilt that he doesn't just wear that sword for show."And this

   "The knight is a Swashbuckler in AC-4, standing next to him he has a Swordsman as his squire."

Which is the equivalent of the knight wearing a big number 5 emblazoned on the knight's surcoat, a 3 painted on the squire's helmet, and to continue the example, and a bunch of 8's woven in among the moons and stars on the court wizard's robe and hat.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: RPGPundit on July 08, 2015, 01:39:30 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;840015
Nobody seems to write Sword & Sorcery any more.  Lieber's first Fafhrd & Grey Mouser story was originally titled "Two Sought Adventure."  What ever happened to adventurers who adventured for the sake of adventure?


Well, when I get around to writing the game-book for my DCC campaign, I guess you'll like it.  It is very much "adventure for its own ridiculous sake".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 08, 2015, 09:25:46 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;840264
Re clothing, etc; there have been several societies, including ancient Sumer and ancient Egypt, where a person's clothing identified them quite precisely; "mid level priest," "low status workman," "royal official with access to the monarch," "wife of important military man," etc.  Phil, knowing this, used it.  There is a difference between "you know this person is a scholar priest of Ksarul of middle status" and "you know this person is a 5th level magic user with 17 hit points blah blah blah."


Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't remember a single situation in Phil's games where we actually found out how many hit points somebody or something had - either we killed them, or they killed us...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 08, 2015, 09:26:43 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;840269
:D

And I agree with the next paragraph... don't punish players for not knowing what their characters would know easily.  That was another bad trend of Phil falling into the aforementioned Villainous Company, though he did indeed "get better."


Agreed! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 08, 2015, 09:44:10 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;840283
Since you mentioned armour, chirine, are there different fighting schools detailed in the setting lore? Are there known differences in regional (or even caste) styles?
Have such distinctions ever been important in your game?
What real world combat arts do Tekumel arts resemble the most:D?


I agree with your points, there.

Yes, there are. All sorts of martial arts using weapons, and also a few schools of unarmed ones known to specialists. Unarmed combat is considered a little 'low class', usually by those getting beaten up by the people who know the style being used... :)

There's everything between the classic 'peasant with a club' - do not annoy the farmers! - to the fancy young nobleman with a rapier. Some cities are known for particular weapons - Tumissa is famous for crossbows, Makhis for archers, Vra for slingers, and so on.

And yes, the distinction has been important, over the years - the non-human Pe Choi and the Ahoggya are famous for their ability to fight with weapons in all for of their hands. Dexterity is very important for this kind of thing. One quite famous human discipline is the 'Arruche' style, with a weapon in each hand - 'Florentine' style, if you would. My alter ego fights this way, with usually a dagger and shortsword combination, or with a mace and buckler. Getting up close and personal is a survival technique, as one can get 'inside' an opponent's reach and score. It helps that Chirine is ambidextrous - I am as well, which is how I 'sold' it to Phil after a demonstration. (I had a nasty habit of flipping my epee or foil between hands in informal bouts; never worked against me dad, who was a champion fencer and used to such things! I still have his foil, too! :) )

Let's see; 'Florentine', savate, kenjitsu, judo or kenjitsu (rare, thankfully!), any of the missile weapon arts. I think there's a list in EPT; I know there is in S&G I, The Sourcebook. I think that between the Glorious General and I, I think we've seen anything and everything used - which is why we try to duck a lot! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 08, 2015, 09:44:46 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;840285
Absolutely!

I find this helps immersion and gameplay. Instead of endless Perception, Knowledge or INT rolls, its better to say "your mage has seen costumes like those before in his studies, they are only worn for rituals invoking the moon gods."


Yep; same here!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 08, 2015, 06:23:25 PM
Quote from: Bren;840331
Yes. Yes. Back when I played level based games NPCs had levels too. And I'm familiar with sumptuary laws.

You don't seem to be grasping what I am saying or you are ignoring it. Knowing he is a knight and thus not first level is way different than knowing the exact level and class of both the knight and his squire. It's the difference between this

   "You can see that the warrior wears a fine surcoat with a coat of arms over a full mail coat that you can see has been repaired at least once by an expert smith, the pommel of his sword has a gem set in it, but you can tell from the sweat stains on the hilt that he doesn't just wear that sword for show."And this

   "The knight is a Swashbuckler in AC-4, standing next to him he has a Swordsman as his squire."

Which is the equivalent of the knight wearing a big number 5 emblazoned on the knight's surcoat, a 3 painted on the squire's helmet, and to continue the example, and a bunch of 8's woven in among the moons and stars on the court wizard's robe and hat.


I was agreeing with you.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 08, 2015, 08:46:57 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;840551
I was agreeing with you.
Oh....my bad. Sometimes you are so curmudgeonly I can't tell.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 08, 2015, 10:54:59 PM
Quote from: Bren;840594
Oh....my bad. Sometimes you are so curmudgeonly I can't tell.


It's the result of decades of practice.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: RPGPundit on July 09, 2015, 02:36:54 AM
Well, I have to say, in the entire history of my being aware of Tekumel's existence, no one has managed to make it seem as appealing as Chirine.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 09, 2015, 02:48:46 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;840658
Well, I have to say, in the entire history of my being aware of Tekumel's existence, no one has managed to make it seem as appealing as Chirine.


It's because he was never self-conscious about his hobbies and thus felt no need to promote the idea that "This is not a game, this is A NARTFORM" by emphasizing the sociological and linguistic elements to the exclusion of running around being chased by monsters.

Phil used the sociological and linguistic elements as spice, not the main ingredients.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 09, 2015, 09:03:34 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;840658
Well, I have to say, in the entire history of my being aware of Tekumel's existence, no one has managed to make it seem as appealing as Chirine.


Well, Tekumel was fun, and very appealing for us - we stayed for a lot of years, listening to Phil spin yarns and occasionally rolling dice. 'Our' Tekumel was full of action, adventure, and even romance - the night Phil married me off to lady Si N'te was one of the very best nights we ever had with him - ever! We were out and about during a local ritual, and Phil was at the top of his form describing it all for us; you tell he was getting it from real life, and describing something he'd seen in his time in India.

I have been both astonished and horrified to see what people think is Tekumel, in various on-line places and discussions; all serious and sociological and ethnographic, with the supposed requirement that you had to know the languages in order to play. Tekumel is not 'impenetrable' or 'unapproachable', at least in the way Phil played it with us. I gather that in the middle 1990's things got Very Serious, and you acted like you were after a degree or something.

No, that wasn't 'our' Tekumel in the original Thursday Night Group; we were the people who thrilled to the battle-cry of:

"Kaor, my Princess! Helium, now and forever!!!"

:)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 09, 2015, 09:19:08 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;840666
It's because he was never self-conscious about his hobbies and thus felt no need to promote the idea that "This is not a game, this is A NARTFORM" by emphasizing the sociological and linguistic elements to the exclusion of running around being chased by monsters.

Phil used the sociological and linguistic elements as spice, not the main ingredients.


Agreed; Phil never force-fed any of that to us; we just did it, absorbing it along the way.

Maybe I'm just getting old, but whatever happened to the sheer joy of playing with healthy doses of laughter along the way? Like the time you personally routed Baron Ald's super-elite guards by running into his camp whilst shrieking mad cries and leaping into, over, and through the camp fire in front of his tent - and not once, but twice? (This was after the Storming of Castle Tilketl, for anyone who's taking notes.) The Baron was mightily impressed, his guards all panicked, and Lord Fu Shi (the most powerful of powerful sorcerers!) got really annoyed.

Wonderful game, great adventure, and you thoughtfully didn't mention to any of them that the reason you were running into their camp was that you had gotten nasty biting ants in your kilt...

Folks, we couldn't make this stuff up - we had fun, we laughed our heads off, and we explored Phil's astonishing creation. No pretense, no worrying about 'prestige', no worries about 'serious art'; we just went out there and were John Carter, Dejah Thoris, Conan, Fafhrd, the Grey Mouser, and all the other people who lived in our imaginations.

It was Tekumel, it was Greyhawk, it was Blackmoor, it was Barsoom, it was Newhon, it was Aquilonia, it was The Mountains of Madness, it was The Moon Pool; it was a bunch of people having fun in friend's basements and at Coffman Union - third floor, Tuesday nights and occasional Saturdays when we wanted to run really big games.

It was a laugh, it was... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 09, 2015, 11:04:48 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;840709

Folks, we couldn't make this stuff up - we had fun, we laughed our heads off, and we explored Phil's astonishing creation. No pretense, no worrying about 'prestige', no worries about 'serious art'; we just went out there and were John Carter, Dejah Thoris, Conan, Fafhrd, the Grey Mouser, and all the other people who lived in our imaginations.

It was Tekumel, it was Greyhawk, it was Blackmoor, it was Barsoom, it was Newhon, it was Aquilonia, it was The Mountains of Madness, it was The Moon Pool; it was a bunch of people having fun in friend's basements and at Coffman Union - third floor, Tuesday nights and occasional Saturdays when we wanted to run really big games.

It was a laugh, it was... :)


If only a renaissance of EPT could bring that back...
Maybe an Anime style series of Escapades in The Empire would interest a new generation in the setting?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: markfitz on July 09, 2015, 12:00:22 PM
Hey all, I just caught up on reading this thread after a long day of archive work. My PhD is not giving me the time to read and comment as these things come up, let alone to game at the moment, and I just wanted to say thanks to Chirine ba Kal, with able support from the questioners, and grace-notes added by Old Geezer, for this fascinating thread. I haven't played in Tekumel, and likely won't, but all these stories and reminiscences from the early hobby are fascinating. I'm glad Chirine didn't make good on his idea of leaving the site; hope this has amply proven that there are people here who are into hearing what he has to say.
And just in general, this thread makes me think "who says we can't have nice things?!"
Kudos, all.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 09, 2015, 01:10:21 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;840707

"Kaor, my Princess! Helium, now and forever!!!"

:)


...I am now officially in my Happy Place.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 09, 2015, 01:20:37 PM
Another interesting point about the "skullduggery and intrigue/serious nartform" approach.  The other group was lying, cheating, murdering, and swindling their way up the Imperial ranks.

My character, at that time a Kasi (commander of a cohort, 400 troops) won a "Kadarli," a "ritual battle," a case of "I challenge the army of Yan Kor to send one cohort of troops to this place at this time."

I was brought before the Petal Throne itself.  The great Hirkane hi Tlakotani, "Perfumer of the Nostrils of the Gods," spoke only in the chiming of a tiny bell, which the chamberlain translated.  The chamberlain was also whispering constant protocol instructions in my ear so this foreigner, this southern barbarian, this former gladiator, this low-level soldier, did not make any serious protocol errors.  (See previous comment about not hanging players out to dry for not knowing what their character knows.)

On the floor were three huge heaps of treasure.  The chamberlain indicated that I may choose my reward.

I said, "The only reward I desire is to be allowed to continue to serve the Glory of the Eternal Petal Throne."  (I was an Imperialist from the get-go, Chirine!)

The tiny bell chimed, the chamberlain very nearly got an expression on his face, and he said softly "you have chosen well."

Long story short, I got all THREE piles of treasure, a promotion, citizenship, and a clan.

Remind me sometime to tell you about how I got married.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 09, 2015, 04:39:42 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;840747
Another interesting point about the "skullduggery and intrigue/serious nartform" approach.  The other group was lying, cheating, murdering, and swindling their way up the Imperial ranks.

My character, at that time a Kasi (commander of a cohort, 400 troops) won a "Kadarli," a "ritual battle," a case of "I challenge the army of Yan Kor to send one cohort of troops to this place at this time."

I was brought before the Petal Throne itself.  The great Hirkane hi Tlakotani, "Perfumer of the Nostrils of the Gods," spoke only in the chiming of a tiny bell, which the chamberlain translated.  The chamberlain was also whispering constant protocol instructions in my ear so this foreigner, this southern barbarian, this former gladiator, this low-level soldier, did not make any serious protocol errors.  (See previous comment about not hanging players out to dry for not knowing what their character knows.)

On the floor were three huge heaps of treasure.  The chamberlain indicated that I may choose my reward.

I said, "The only reward I desire is to be allowed to continue to serve the Glory of the Eternal Petal Throne."  (I was an Imperialist from the get-go, Chirine!)

The tiny bell chimed, the chamberlain very nearly got an expression on his face, and he said softly "you have chosen well."

Long story short, I got all THREE piles of treasure, a promotion, citizenship, and a clan.

Remind me sometime to tell you about how I got married.


Just as a quick footnote - this particular game session was the very first one that I ever played in with Phil. Talk about being thrown in at the deep end... :0
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 09, 2015, 04:42:18 PM
Quote from: markfitz;840728
Hey all, I just caught up on reading this thread after a long day of archive work. My PhD is not giving me the time to read and comment as these things come up, let alone to game at the moment, and I just wanted to say thanks to Chirine ba Kal, with able support from the questioners, and grace-notes added by Old Geezer, for this fascinating thread. I haven't played in Tekumel, and likely won't, but all these stories and reminiscences from the early hobby are fascinating. I'm glad Chirine didn't make good on his idea of leaving the site; hope this has amply proven that there are people here who are into hearing what he has to say.
And just in general, this thread makes me think "who says we can't have nice things?!"
Kudos, all.


You're very welcome! All I an do is spin yarns about what we used to do here in the Twin Cities, back in the late 1970s and early 1980s; there's a lot o mythology about what we supposedly did back in those days. It was a different time and place, and if you can take away anything to use in your games, well, that's what I'm here for... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 09, 2015, 04:55:36 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;840717
If only a renaissance of EPT could bring that back...
Maybe an Anime style series of Escapades in The Empire would interest a new generation in the setting?
=

I dunno; I just dunno. I did my best, a while back, and I got a brain bleed out of it that nearly killed me.

I've ben told that my book about our adventures is something that will do this, but I don't know; I'm too close to the thing, I think. I an try to post an excerpt, if you like...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 09, 2015, 04:57:04 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;840745
...I am now officially in my Happy Place.


I try, Glorious General... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shipyard Locked on July 09, 2015, 05:14:37 PM
What a great thread. Thank you.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 09, 2015, 09:55:52 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;840796
I an try to post an excerpt, if you like...

When you are ready. We wouldn't want people judging a draft as a final document.
Me, I just enjoy a good tale whenever I can get them.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 10, 2015, 07:53:37 AM
Here's a little sample, then, for your amusement. (The Good Captain is Dave Arneson's player-character, by the way; Vrisa is the artist, Kathy Marshall...)

4.1702 Maritime Melees, Or, Dealing With The Locals
The Shores of Háida Pakalla, Winter, 2360 A. S.

   The ship came about, feeling the wind in her sails as they hoisted in the two great stone anchors and made everything ready for sea. Hárchar wanted to be off; he hated any time that he had to spend in harbor, and was always unhappy when he was not at sea. Chirine was startled when the summons came for him to, as the sailor informed him, "Lay aft to the poop; the cap'n wants to see ya!" by which Chirine guessed that Hárchar wanted him to appear before him on that maritime Holy of Holies, the uppermost deck of the after-castle of the ship from Hárchar surveyed his maritime domain and upon which he was normally found bellowing orders to his crew.

No mere mortals, such as the paying passengers, were ever allowed up there to disturb Harchar's sang froid; if they were really lucky, or especially esteemed, they were occasionally allowed to ascend to the quarter deck, the one below the poop, where the officers had their quarters and from which the quartermaster on duty steered the ship. A summons like this was, in Chirine's experience with Hárchar and his crew, totally unprecedented. Something, as the sages would say, was up.

   Hárchar stood at the stern of the ship, leaning on the rail and looking out over what the locals grandly termed a 'city'. Everyone else, Chirine suspected, called it a slum, but it did not do to insult the corsair chieftains of Háida Pakalla in their own lairs. Chirine approached the captain respectfully, and attempted to salute in a sailorly fashion. Hárchar simply snarled. "Priest, you know better then that; you've sailed with us before, and you have no little experience of ships and boats. Kindly dispense with the flummery; we have a problem. Three problems, in actuality." Chirine joined him at the rail, and waited for him to continue.

   "The locals," Hárchar said, spitting over the side - he had no love for them, and often showed it - "have had a bright idea. Don't turn around, but there are three of them waiting for us just outside the harbor mouth. One sailing ship, and two galleys full of thugs. I expect that they'll try to board us when we come out of the harbor; you know what it'll mean if they take us, of course. Especially for your Princess and her 'maid'."

   "So, Captain, you have an idea of your own. What would you like me to do?"

   "Kill the galley on our left as we sail out of the harbor. My crew will try to kill the one to our right, and if you'd care to help with that it would be appreciated. I will kill the sailing ship in the center of the channel." He paused, spat over the side again, and ground out his next words with all the enthusiasm of a virgin Priestess of Dilinala giving birth to a Sérudla. "We'll recompense you for your professional services as a sorcerer, of course." Chirine nearly fell overboard in his astonishment; Hárchar must be really worried, if he was willing to actually part with any of his hard-earned and probably ill-gotten cash.

   "No need to worry about accounts, Captain; consider it a favor between friends. I'll go below and get ready, shall I?"

   "Keep things quiet; our best chance in this is to surprise the scum, so stay under cover as much as you can as we set sail."

   Chirine took that as a dismissal, and went below to his cabin at the stern of the weather deck that he shared with Vrísa. He gave her what information he had, and the two started to get their armor on. The girl helped as much as she could, tightening straps and fastening buckles as she was told; there was a pause, and Chirine unwrapped a breast- and back-plate set and helmet of hide-hide that was sized for a smaller person then either himself or Vrísa. He and Vrísa started getting the girl into this armor; then added weapons to match. Two sharp daggers went onto her belt, one on each side; last but not least, the open-faced burgonet-style helmet. The girl marveled at the two daggers, as they were made of steel and worth a fortune.

   Chirine apologized for the poor fit of the armor, saying that it was the smallest that the ship's armorer had in his stores; the daggers, on the other hand, came out of one of his traveling chests along with enough weapons for all three of them.

   He gestured, and the three of them went forward along the lower main deck, below the open weather deck and out of sight of any curious on-lookers. The deck was crowded; the ship's crew was mustering themselves there as well, and getting their own weapons and armor in order. The weapons seemed to include a medium-sized stone-thrower, which was being readied on a sort of turntable that would be raised up to the weather deck through the large cargo hatch in the center of the deck. Hárchar, it seemed, had more then one surprise in store for any attackers.

   The three of them clambered up to the top deck of the forecastle; they crouched in the shadow of the bulwark, and Chirine and Vrísa handed the girl their helmets and stuck their heads above the rail for a very cautious look at the situation. The sailing ship that Hárchar had been concerned about was ahead and to their left; the two galleys were farther out, to the left and right, with the one on the left on the far side of the presumably enemy sailing ship. The one to the right was the slightly larger and broader of the two galleys, with the one on the left slimmer and faster-looking - and with what looked like a ram on her bow, which explained why Hárchar wanted this particular ship killed and killed quickly.

   He warned the two women to hang onto the safety ropes their crew had rigged; he expected their own ship to heel to the left as soon as Hárchar gave the word. He looked back at the captain, who was making sure his own ship was as ready as possible for battle. The crew were assembling four bolt throwers, two on the forecastle and two aft on the corner of the quarter-deck; the hatch opening in the weather deck had been cleared, and the stone-thrower below was just visible in the opening. The quartermaster who normally steered the ship at this time of the day had been replaced by the third mate, 'Fishface'; she was reputed to be the best of all the crew at the ship's helm, and stood at the wheel waiting for Harchar's commands. The captain himself stood just above her, at the rail of the poop deck just over the wheel, and looked - to Chirine, at least - like a man in his element. There was no fear in his look or voice, just the supreme contentment of a man confident in his ship and in his crew. His topmen had trimmed the ship's sails to catch as much of the wind as possible; the ship continued to accelerate, building speed as the water in the channel deepened.

   Chirine chanced another quick look; they were just beyond the line of over-grown isles that protected the harbor from the sea's long swells. The sailing ship off their bow was already slackening the three lateen sails, one per mast, in order to lose speed and come alongside; the two galleys also had slackened their square sails, and would use their oars to circle the two sailing ships in order to find the best point to attack. He looked back at Hárchar; it would be any time, now.

   The captain timed it perfectly, and roared a command to his crew. Fishface spun the wheel, timing her own maneuver to aim at the gap between fore- and mainmast of their opponent. Any doubts that Chirine had had about the speed and maneuverability of their own ship was answered as she heeled over into the turn; Chirine guessed that the portion of their ship that could be seen above the waterline had a very different hull below. Their bow crashed into the side of their smaller opponent, and rode up on the other ship's side before the speed and mass of the larger ship rolled the smaller over. Below Chirine, the two mates - Staffswinger and Swordswinger - roared their own commands, and the two great stone anchors dropped free to crush the smaller ship's hull in a welter of splintered wood. Just as quickly, the mates ordered the crew below decks to haul the anchors back in, both to keep the ship from slowing and to make them ready for another attack.

The purser, who normally saw to the passengers' needs - at a price, of course! - now seemed to be in command of the artillery; his men had been tracking the larger galley, and now mounted the bolt- and stone-throwers in position and started launching their missiles at the targeted ship. Bolts winnowed through the steersmen aft, and a cluster of firepots from the stone-thrower landed amidships amongst the rowers.

   Covered by the noise and confusion of ramming the sailing ship, Chirine stood and locked his gaze on the smaller galley, which was now very close and beginning to turn to attack them. Chirine launched a rippling bolt of energy into the galley, using the other-planar lighting to scythe through the crew. He followed it with a cloud of greenish fog that the wind carried across to the galley to suffocate the rowers and keep them from their oars.

   He crossed over to the other side of the forecastle, and launched a powerful spell at the larger galley. There was a sharp crack, and an explosion of crimson energy erupted amidships on the galley's deck. He didn't wait to see what effect his sorcery had had on the galley, but instead crossed back to the opposite side of the forecastle and launched one last spell, exhausting the last of what other-planar energy existed here. A huge fist of energy hit the smaller galley, and stove in the light planking of her hull; the dead or dying on her deck had barely enough time to scream before the water closed over them. He unclipped the short sword and the mace from his belt, and stood ready to kill any enemies who still lived and who had made it aboard their ship. Vrísa took her helmet from the wide-eyed girl, put it on, and unsheathed her own sword. All of this had been done in the time that it had taken their own ship had taken to run over the smaller sailing ship and clear the broken and drifting wreckage. The bodies of the sunken ship's crew, both alive and dead, were already being savaged by the sea's predators.

The purser raked the two galleys, to port and starboard, with everything his crews at the artillery could bring to bear as they passed between the burning and sinking galleys. If there were to be any survivors from these two ships, they would have to fend for themselves in the hostile waters; Hárchar and his sailors has no love for the Háida Pakalan seaborne brigands, and Chirine suspected that more then a few old scores were being settled on this day.

Hárchar continued on his easterly course until well outside of sight of land, then steered sharply to the west. His crew cleared away the artillery and cleaned up the decks; they had little to repair in the way of battle damage, as the speed and violence of their attacks on the enemy ships hadn't given their opponents much of any chance to launch their own attacks. The crew also cleared their sorcerer and his bodyguards off the deck, and they retired to their cabin to get out of their armor and get both armor and weapons stowed away.

The girl started to return both armor and weapons to Chirine, but he pointed to a new wooden chest that the ship's carpenter was bringing into the cabin. "Your equipment goes in there, along with your clothes and sleeping mat. It's your chest, for your possessions." She looked at Vrísa, about to ask a question. Vrísa forestalled her, and spoke first.

"Yes, even the daggers. Those are yours, and I'll show you how to take care of them. If you want my advice, always take care of your weapons and armour first, even before you eat or sleep. You'll live longer, that way."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 10, 2015, 08:00:15 AM
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;840799
What a great thread. Thank you.


You're very welcome - please feel free to ask any questions, too! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 10, 2015, 08:08:57 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;840853
When you are ready. We wouldn't want people judging a draft as a final document.
Me, I just enjoy a good tale whenever I can get them.
=


I've posted an excerpt that originally appeared on the Blackmoor forum - apologies if you've already seen it there. Here's the outline of the whole thing:

To Serve The Petal Throne - The Adventures of Chirine ba Kal

This series of books are the adventures of the original Thursday night gaming group of Prof. M. A. R. Barker, over some fifteen years of gaming. The text is taken from the logbooks and audio recordings made during those game sessions, with additional enlightenment from the Professor as thought needed for the education of the reader.

The work is divided into six volumes, for the ease of the reader:

Book One:   The Chalice Of The Flame

Relating the beginnings of the original Thursday Night Group, and their adventures up until the revealing of Prince Mirusiya hi Tlakotani…

Book Two:   Beneath The Blazoned Sail

Relating the further adventures of our heroes, on their first voyage to the Southern Continent with Captain Harchar of the Clan of the Blazoned Sail, and what befell them there…

Book Three:   Advance Standards!

Relating the epic adventures of our heroes as they go to war, on the Northwest Frontier, and their battles lost and won…

Book Four:   Across The Sea Of Worlds

Relating the adventures of our heroes on their second voyage of discovery with Captain Harchar, and the strange places they visit…

Book Five:   The Golden Seal

Relating the adventures of our heroes as they march forth on the marches, trying to preserve the City and Province of Hekellu and the Chaigari Protectorate, and the many and strange occurrences on their way…

Book Six:   To The Distant Shores

Relating the continuing epic (and not so epic) adventures of our heroes as they attempt to age gracefully in a time of strife and civil war…
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 10, 2015, 08:30:40 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;840920
4.1702 Maritime Melees, Or, Dealing With The Locals
The Shores of Háida Pakalla, Winter, 2360 A. S.
Thanks Chirine! I really enjoyed that. It's not to different to how we play now. It reminds me of the sea battles we've done, though sadly our ships did not have such superior gunnery. And the writing is similar to what I strive for and may, on a good day, achieve.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 10, 2015, 01:46:01 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;840920
Here's a little sample, then, for your amusement. (The Good Captain is Dave Arneson's player-character, by the way; Vrisa is the artist, Kathy Marshall...)

4.1702 Maritime Melees, Or, Dealing With The Locals
The Shores of Háida Pakalla, Winter, 2360 A. S.



Of course that just makes waiting to get my grubby hands on the entire series that much harder ... Thanks ...
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 10, 2015, 06:22:14 PM
Quote from: Bren;840934
Thanks Chirine! I really enjoyed that. It's not to different to how we play now. It reminds me of the sea battles we've done, though sadly our ships did not have such superior gunnery. And the writing is similar to what I strive for and may, on a good day, achieve.


Thank you! All I'm doing is telling it like it happened - yes, Dave mimed spitting over the rail, as part of his sea captain persona.

And yes, he was very heavily armed; he thought was that he dealt in low-volume, high-value, and quite illegal cargoes, he would attract a lot of unwelcome attention from undesirable people. As for his ship-handling, may I suggest "Don't Give Up The Ship" by Gygax and Arneson? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 10, 2015, 06:26:11 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;840973
Of course that just makes waiting to get my grubby hands on the entire series that much harder ... Thanks ...
=


You're very welcome. The current plan on the part of my publisher is to have the six books released in  a hardback format, with lots of good illustrations. I will simply be handing him the manuscript, and he'll take it from there.

I am current;y at 108,000 words, of a projected 300,000; each of the six volumes is planned to be about 50,000 words long, in order to make my career more manageable to read. Each volume can be read as an individual book, as I'm going to include a timeline and other data in each to make the whole campaign understandable.

We have with Phil for over a decade - closer to fifteen years, really - and I have a lot of stories to tell... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 11, 2015, 01:21:47 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;841005
As for his ship-handling, may I suggest "Don't Give Up The Ship" by Gygax and Arneson? :)
I don't think I ever played it. I had friends who were into naval warfare, mostly Fletcher Pratt I think, but I never ended up doing that. Napoleonic warfare would be anachronistic for the 1620s though. Mostly what I meant was, from the description of the battle the crew and officers of Captain Harchar's ship seem more competent than their opponents. Such was not really the case in our two sea battles. Also there were no wizard-priests.

The first battle the PCs were passengers on a Dutch warship and we helped capture the enemy vessel, a Dunkerquer pirate, but the PCs managed to piss off the Dutch captain and he put them ashore on the nearest coast, which just happened to be next to the town Steenbergen just as Luis de Velasco y Velasco, 2nd Count of Salazar was capturing the town. Cue flight of the PCs south, capture, escape, and trapped in the siege of Bergen op Zoom.

After the Spanish gave up the siege, the PCs took passage on a Dutch merchant vessel that was attacked by a Barbary Corsair. The merchant captain was a coward and ended up losing his ship to the Corsairs. Meanwhile, the PCs managed to lead part of the crew in a boarding action and captured the Corsair galley. Both sides ended up sailing off in the other's ship. The cowardly Dutch captain ended up as a prisoner of the Corsairs.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 11, 2015, 09:40:28 AM
Quote from: Bren;841042
I don't think I ever played it. I had friends who were into naval warfare, mostly Fletcher Pratt I think, but I never ended up doing that. Napoleonic warfare would be anachronistic for the 1620s though. Mostly what I meant was, from the description of the battle the crew and officers of Captain Harchar's ship seem more competent than their opponents. Such was not really the case in our two sea battles. Also there were no wizard-priests.

The first battle the PCs were passengers on a Dutch warship and we helped capture the enemy vessel, a Dunkerquer pirate, but the PCs managed to piss off the Dutch captain and he put them ashore on the nearest coast, which just happened to be next to the town Steenbergen just as Luis de Velasco y Velasco, 2nd Count of Salazar was capturing the town. Cue flight of the PCs south, capture, escape, and trapped in the siege of Bergen op Zoom.

After the Spanish gave up the siege, the PCs took passage on a Dutch merchant vessel that was attacked by a Barbary Corsair. The merchant captain was a coward and ended up losing his ship to the Corsairs. Meanwhile, the PCs managed to lead part of the crew in a boarding action and captured the Corsair galley. Both sides ended up sailing off in the other's ship. The cowardly Dutch captain ended up as a prisoner of the Corsairs.


Oh, right; gotcha. Great sea story, too!!! :)

[And I assume that you know that the Barbary Corsairs raided as far as Ireland and Iceland, too... :)]

'Napoleonic' sea warfare isn't all that different then what went on in the 1600s; the Anglo-Dutch wars or the Anglo-French are very easily played wth DGUTS, as the technology is much the same - land warfare in the two periods is very, very different, of course. The major changes between the 1620s and the 1810s is the revolution in signaling and the huge paradigm shift in tactics; Home-Popham's signalling book caused both a tactical and a mental revolution. If de Ruyter had had it, there'd be a pretty good chance that the sun would have never set on the Dutch Empire.

[All of this from a conversation with Dave Arneson; I am an ECW buff, and we got on the subject when I was setting up my ECW-period 'Tangier' campaign. You story about your players rings true - it would have been par for the course back in that campaign. :)]

Harchar and his merry band of "honest seafaring merchants" were really, really good at what they did, which was delivering the highly illegal goods anywhere they might be sellable. His big merchantman was also not what it seemed above the waterline; below, it was a very fine hull form an a lot faster then it looked - and much more nimble, too. Phil pointedly asked Dave if this was 'authentic', and Arneson trotted out all sorts of ship plans to show Phil why French ships were always so in demand by the British; Dave's ships were, in Napoleonic terms, French frigates with British crews. He also bought the very best weaponry he could get, the very best crew that he could find, and when you add in his own personal skill as a ship-handler and -fighter you just didn't mess with him if you valued your life and ship. People kept learning this the hard way, over the years...

(Tekumel is not a friendly environment; we humans are not at the top of the food chain, and so people get really good at what they do really quickly; otherwise, they get dead.)

All of those guys were really fearsomely competent: Arneson, Maker, Wesley, Soukup, Funk, Gaylord, Bjugen, Jenkins, the whole lot of them. When you faced them across the game table, you expected to have them do everything they could to rip your heart out and feed it to you with Tobasco Sauce on it. They were not 'power gamers', or what I think is called 'min-max players'; they were just that good, and that's the school of play that OG and I joined in with.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 11, 2015, 11:28:51 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;841084
Oh, right; gotcha. Great sea story, too!!! :)

[And I assume that you know that the Barbary Corsairs raided as far as Ireland and Iceland, too... :)]
Thanks and I do. That's why the Corsairs were in la Manche (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Carte_de_la_Manche.png) (or what the Goddamns hubristically call the English Channel). ;)

Quote
If de Ruyter had had it, there'd be a pretty good chance that the sun would have never set on the Dutch Empire.
The Dutch also had the disadvantage of not being on a real island. They could flood their fields, but they were still much more open to French invasion than Britain and for a next door neighbor they had Louis XIV with the biggest, best army in Europe at the time. Twenty plus miles of sea between them and everyone, gave England a lot more luxury about picking and choosing their alliances.

Quote
...got on the subject when I was setting up my ECW-period 'Tangier' campaign. You story about your players rings true - it would have been par for the course back in that campaign. :)
There may be more sea battles soon. One of the PCs ended up with the corsair xebec which he outfitted as a privateer. He's now in Marseille. Some other PCs are on their way there to accompany Isaac de Ravilly to Salé, Morocco to try to conclude a trade agreement.

I doubt the PC xebec will be as skilled as Harchar though. The PC in charge, Hippolyte de Bouchard known as The Foul Corsair, is not the sharpest cutlass in the rack. And our playstyle is more character simulative than what we did back in the 1970s or how you all played in Tekumel.

Quote
All of those guys were really fearsomely competent: Arneson, Maker, Wesley, Soukup, Funk, Gaylord, Bjugen, Jenkins, the whole lot of them. When you faced them across the game table, you expected to have them do everything they could to rip your heart out and feed it to you with Tobasco Sauce on it. They were not 'power gamers', or what I think is called 'min-max players'; they were just that good, and that's the school of play that OG and I joined in with.
I think that is often the case with people who come to RPGs from a war gaming background. We had a number of folks like that back in the day. Over time, the play I do moved to more character simulation and most of the players I have now are more interested in that then in giving free rein to the player's tactical acumen. The guy playing the Corsair is easily the best at tactics of my players (he's one of the original group from 1974), but he reins it in while enjoying hamming it up playing a dumb pirate. Strokes, folks they can be different.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 11, 2015, 04:03:45 PM
Quote from: Bren;841092
Thanks and I do. That's why the Corsairs were in la Manche (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Carte_de_la_Manche.png) (or what the Goddamns hubristically call the English Channel). ;)

The Dutch also had the disadvantage of not being on a real island. They could flood their fields, but they were still much more open to French invasion than Britain and for a next door neighbor they had Louis XIV with the biggest, best army in Europe at the time. Twenty plus miles of sea between them and everyone, gave England a lot more luxury about picking and choosing their alliances.

There may be more sea battles soon. One of the PCs ended up with the corsair xebec which he outfitted as a privateer. He's now in Marseille. Some other PCs are on their way there to accompany Isaac de Ravilly to Salé, Morocco to try to conclude a trade agreement.

I doubt the PC xebec will be as skilled as Harchar though. The PC in charge, Hippolyte de Bouchard known as The Foul Corsair, is not the sharpest cutlass in the rack. And our playstyle is more character simulative than what we did back in the 1970s or how you all played in Tekumel.

I think that is often the case with people who come to RPGs from a war gaming background. We had a number of folks like that back in the day. Over time, the play I do moved to more character simulation and most of the players I have now are more interested in that then in giving free rein to the player's tactical acumen. The guy playing the Corsair is easily the best at tactics of my players (he's one of the original group from 1974), but he reins it in while enjoying hamming it up playing a dumb pirate. Strokes, folks they can be different.


Very cool - I love this conversation, as it's nice to talk to somebody who knows about the corsairs lurking in the mists!

Agreed about having dear old Louis for a neighbor; all those loud parties involving all those soldiers! :)

I also agree with you about the different strokes and all that; if your group is having fun doing what they are doing, then that's what I'd consider the important thing... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 11, 2015, 07:41:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;841127
Very cool - I love this conversation, as it's nice to talk to somebody who knows about the corsairs lurking in the mists!
Oh, I'm an ocean of trivia. :D It does seem odd to think of Barbary Corsairs from sunny Morocco raiding rainy Cork or Kerry though. I don't think I'd have wanted to sail the eastern Atlantic in any type of galley.

Quote
I also agree with you about the different strokes and all that; if your group is having fun doing what they are doing, then that's what I'd consider the important thing... :)
I tend to be in the middle on a lot of gaming issues. Things seem most fun when the players and the GM are mostly in synch on what they like. Your Tekumel stories sound like something I would have and still would enjoy. I'm glad you've decided to stay around for at least a little longer. I'll be watching for your adventure corpus. It sounds fun and I shamelessly steal gaming ideas from anywhere.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 11, 2015, 08:24:56 PM
Quote from: Bren;841149
Oh, I'm an ocean of trivia. :D It does seem odd to think of Barbary Corsairs from sunny Morocco raiding rainy Cork or Kerry though. I don't think I'd have wanted to sail the eastern Atlantic in any type of galley.

I tend to be in the middle on a lot of gaming issues. Things seem most fun when the players and the GM are mostly in synch on what they like. Your Tekumel stories sound like something I would have and still would enjoy. I'm glad you've decided to stay around for at least a little longer. I'll be watching for your adventure corpus. It sounds fun and I shamelessly steal gaming ideas from anywhere.


My guess is that's why the xebec was developed; I don't think they used a 'straight' galley like you'd have found in the Med - on either side, given the way Louis sent people to the galleys.

Yes, I think you would have loved it out at Phil's; during most of the time we were gaming with him, we were also his 'publishing staff', with writers and artists all playing. We, to use your phrase, were very much 'in synch' with him.

I'll keep writing away, then , shall I? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 11, 2015, 10:52:51 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;841155
I'll keep writing away, then , shall I? :)
Please do. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 12, 2015, 07:50:27 AM
Chirine, please keep writing! Just make sure there would be a PDF option as well or the shipping issues might well kill another portion of my soul as well!

Quote from: Old Geezer;840666
It's because he was never self-conscious about his hobbies and thus felt no need to promote the idea that "This is not a game, this is A NARTFORM" by emphasizing the sociological and linguistic elements to the exclusion of running around being chased by monsters.

Phil used the sociological and linguistic elements as spice, not the main ingredients.

I have equal issues with the[ I]gaming can't be any nartform[/I] crowd.
Using sociology and linguistics as the basis of your GMing style is fine with me. Using them to the exclusion of everything else is the problem here.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;840709
Agreed; Phil never force-fed any of that to us; we just did it, absorbing it along the way.

Maybe I'm just getting old, but whatever happened to the sheer joy of playing with healthy doses of laughter along the way? Like the time you personally routed Baron Ald's super-elite guards by running into his camp whilst shrieking mad cries and leaping into, over, and through the camp fire in front of his tent - and not once, but twice? (This was after the Storming of Castle Tilketl, for anyone who's taking notes.) The Baron was mightily impressed, his guards all panicked, and Lord Fu Shi (the most powerful of powerful sorcerers!) got really annoyed.

This reminds me of some recent stories from our sessions:-D.

Quote from: Greentongue;840717
If only a renaissance of EPT could bring that back...
Maybe an Anime style series of Escapades in The Empire would interest a new generation in the setting?
=

It probably would, but the IP would likely be a problem.

Quote from: Old Geezer;840747
Another interesting point about the "skullduggery and intrigue/serious nartform" approach.  The other group was lying, cheating, murdering, and swindling their way up the Imperial ranks.

My character, at that time a Kasi (commander of a cohort, 400 troops) won a "Kadarli," a "ritual battle," a case of "I challenge the army of Yan Kor to send one cohort of troops to this place at this time."

I was brought before the Petal Throne itself.  The great Hirkane hi Tlakotani, "Perfumer of the Nostrils of the Gods," spoke only in the chiming of a tiny bell, which the chamberlain translated.  The chamberlain was also whispering constant protocol instructions in my ear so this foreigner, this southern barbarian, this former gladiator, this low-level soldier, did not make any serious protocol errors.  (See previous comment about not hanging players out to dry for not knowing what their character knows.)

On the floor were three huge heaps of treasure.  The chamberlain indicated that I may choose my reward.

I said, "The only reward I desire is to be allowed to continue to serve the Glory of the Eternal Petal Throne."  (I was an Imperialist from the get-go, Chirine!)

The tiny bell chimed, the chamberlain very nearly got an expression on his face, and he said softly "you have chosen well."

Long story short, I got all THREE piles of treasure, a promotion, citizenship, and a clan.

Remind me sometime to tell you about how I got married.

Great story! And please tell us of your marriage!
The one in T`ekumel, I mean.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;840791
Just as a quick footnote - this particular game session was the very first one that I ever played in with Phil. Talk about being thrown in at the deep end... :0

Well, it was fun, wasn't it? Not all new players need a simple setting, to some this approach is counterproductive.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;840445
I agree with your points, there.

Yes, there are. All sorts of martial arts using weapons, and also a few schools of unarmed ones known to specialists. Unarmed combat is considered a little 'low class', usually by those getting beaten up by the people who know the style being used... :)

There's everything between the classic 'peasant with a club' - do not annoy the farmers! - to the fancy young nobleman with a rapier. Some cities are known for particular weapons - Tumissa is famous for crossbows, Makhis for archers, Vra for slingers, and so on.

And yes, the distinction has been important, over the years - the non-human Pe Choi and the Ahoggya are famous for their ability to fight with weapons in all for of their hands. Dexterity is very important for this kind of thing. One quite famous human discipline is the 'Arruche' style, with a weapon in each hand - 'Florentine' style, if you would. My alter ego fights this way, with usually a dagger and shortsword combination, or with a mace and buckler. Getting up close and personal is a survival technique, as one can get 'inside' an opponent's reach and score. It helps that Chirine is ambidextrous - I am as well, which is how I 'sold' it to Phil after a demonstration. (I had a nasty habit of flipping my epee or foil between hands in informal bouts; never worked against me dad, who was a champion fencer and used to such things! I still have his foil, too! :) )

Let's see; 'Florentine', savate, kenjitsu, judo or kenjitsu (rare, thankfully!), any of the missile weapon arts. I think there's a list in EPT; I know there is in S&G I, The Sourcebook. I think that between the Glorious General and I, I think we've seen anything and everything used - which is why we try to duck a lot! :)

I figure purely unarmed combat would be low class for someone who despatched a practitioner as well...
Why are you thankful kenjutsu is rare?

And that's great, actually. But then, are the schools clan affiliated, acting as a secondary clan, acting as a new clan, or some combination of those?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 12, 2015, 11:45:47 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;841232
Chirine, please keep writing! Just make sure there would be a PDF option as well or the shipping issues might well kill another portion of my soul as well!

I figure purely unarmed combat would be low class for someone who despatched a practitioner as well...
Why are you thankful kenjutsu is rare?

And that's great, actually. But then, are the schools clan affiliated, acting as a secondary clan, acting as a new clan, or some combination of those?


Right; first off, the idea with my book is to offer it in all sorts of media so that people have a choice. I am not in this for the money; I expect to make nothing off the thing. My goal is to tell people about Tekumel, and our adventures; I'm trying to give people a look at what 'our' Tekumel was like, trying to deal with some of the misconceptions about Phil's creation that I've seen come up over the decades. So, we're looking at e-books, PDFs, and hard copies; nothing is off the table, at this point.

Unarmed combat is regarded as 'low status' by some of the practitioners of the 'weaponed' arts; it also has a little bit of an unsavory reputation due to it being used by both intelligence agencies and the assassins' Black Y Society and the Ndalu Clan. Both groups are very expert in all of the unarmed martial arts, as well as in the more unconventional weapons. Each group also serves society as the 'court of last resort'; if you can't get satisfaction any other way, you go to the assassins and apply to them for having somebody soundly thrashed or even killed. Usually, however, the simple serving of notice by the assassins that they'll be by later that week to give one the business causes people to want to 'settle out of court' pretty rapidly.

The schools are all associated with temples and clans of various sorts, usually the ones with warrior traditions. There are exceptions, of course; the Ndalu Clan is associated with the Temple of Ksarul, doomed Prince of the Blue Room, and the Black Y Society with the Temple of Hry'y. They do hire out, though, and all you have to do is apply for an audience at the front gate of their clan house.

Some nations also have traditions of martial arts; the Livyani are famous for their fighting styles, with savate being very popular. The Salarvyani are not known for this kind of thing, as are the Mu'uglavyani. The Tsolyani sort of have schools, and the Yan Koryani - as in so many other things - are just learning.

So, do we got ninjas? Well, yes, actually... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 12, 2015, 06:19:45 PM
Quote from: Bren;841092

I think that is often the case with people who come to RPGs from a war gaming background. We had a number of folks like that back in the day. Over time, the play I do moved to more character simulation and most of the players I have now are more interested in that then in giving free rein to the player's tactical acumen. The guy playing the Corsair is easily the best at tactics of my players (he's one of the original group from 1974), but he reins it in while enjoying hamming it up playing a dumb pirate. Strokes, folks they can be different.


The two are not exclusionary.  Dave A. could be as goofy as anybody in his characterization of Harchar, which diminished not a whit from his tactical expertise.

See also how many wargame armies are commanded by Sir Hugh Jarce, the Vicomte d'Escargot, Commodore John Paul Georgeringo, Sir Loin of Beef, et. al.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 12, 2015, 08:59:32 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;841243
Right; first off, the idea with my book is to offer it in all sorts of media so that people have a choice. I am not in this for the money; I expect to make nothing off the thing. My goal is to tell people about Tekumel, and our adventures; I'm trying to give people a look at what 'our' Tekumel was like, trying to deal with some of the misconceptions about Phil's creation that I've seen come up over the decades. So, we're looking at e-books, PDFs, and hard copies; nothing is off the table, at this point.

In a word, great!

Quote
Unarmed combat is regarded as 'low status' by some of the practitioners of the 'weaponed' arts;

Of course only weapon arts would have this attitude. It's funny, though, since they also contain unarmed elements, grappling at a minimum.
So this means these practitioners also probably see their weapons as signs of status, wealth and/or skill.

Quote
it also has a little bit of an unsavory reputation due to it being used by both intelligence agencies and the assassins' Black Y Society and the Ndalu Clan. Both groups are very expert in all of the unarmed martial arts, as well as in the more unconventional weapons.

Noted. Still,  they are likely to also use weapons whenever possible, because you know, weapons are better than not having an weapon. At the very least, the victim has less time to shout out.

Quote
Each group also serves society as the 'court of last resort'; if you can't get satisfaction any other way, you go to the assassins and apply to them for having somebody soundly thrashed or even killed. Usually, however, the simple serving of notice by the assassins that they'll be by later that week to give one the business causes people to want to 'settle out of court' pretty rapidly.

Note to self, Tsolyani courts suck:D!

Quote
The schools are all associated with temples and clans of various sorts, usually the ones with warrior traditions. There are exceptions, of course; the Ndalu Clan is associated with the Temple of Ksarul, doomed Prince of the Blue Room, and the Black Y Society with the Temple of Hry'y. They do hire out, though, and all you have to do is apply for an audience at the front gate of their clan house.

Would they provide additional training to a good recruit? That's likely to become a point in the campaign I started tonight:)!
My answer is that they would if you prove yourself. It's not going to change, just wondering how close it is to canon.

Quote
Some nations also have traditions of martial arts; the Livyani are famous for their fighting styles, with savate being very popular. The Salarvyani are not known for this kind of thing, as are the Mu'uglavyani. The Tsolyani sort of have schools, and the Yan Koryani - as in so many other things - are just learning.

Were there any mechanical differences between them in the system you were using at the time?
And I'd expect them all to have combat skills, but some of them would have codified ones and schools, while the rest rely on collections of techniques passed down in a less formal and structured ways.
It helps that I cannot name any place or people that didn't have such traditions...;)

Quote
So, do we got ninjas? Well, yes, actually... :)

Sounds more like fidayin of the Ismaili Nizari, if you ask me;)! Given the known inspirations for T`ekumel including Central Asia, it makes sense.
Which is not to say less competent than ninjas, maybe even the opposite:D.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 12, 2015, 09:18:34 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;841294
The two are not exclusionary.  Dave A. could be as goofy as anybody in his characterization of Harchar, which diminished not a whit from his tactical expertise.

See also how many wargame armies are commanded by Sir Hugh Jarce, the Vicomte d'Escargot, Commodore John Paul Georgeringo, Sir Loin of Beef, et. al.


Yeah - I'd agree with this. :)

I think we all tended to 'think tactically', out at Phil's; I think it was a survival thing... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 12, 2015, 10:32:21 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;841294
The two are not exclusionary.
Yes I get the hamming up can be separate.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;841315
I think we all tended to 'think tactically', out at Phil's; I think it was a survival thing... :)
That's the difference I meant. In one style of play (what I consider old style, i.e. the way I played D&D in the 1970s and Runequest in the 1980s). In that style, the player needs to think tactically for the character to survive and profit. The DM/GM/Referee is running cunning NPCs in a dangerous world where survival is tough. In another style of play thinking tactically is optional - allowed and encouraged for characters for whom tactical acumen is justifiable, but not a requirement, especially for dumb as a bag of rocks, untrained folks. I can enjoy either style. But the second works better for the people and games I have now.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 13, 2015, 01:32:51 AM
Quote from: Bren;841318
I can enjoy either style. But the second works better for the people and games I have now.


Okay, but in my book there's a difference between "I don't know a lot about tactics" and "we're player characters!  CHARGE!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 13, 2015, 01:40:09 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;841347
Okay, but in my book there's a difference between "I don't know a lot about tactics" and "we're player characters!  CHARGE!"
Yes, and?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 13, 2015, 06:26:46 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;841347
Okay, but in my book there's a difference between "I don't know a lot about tactics" and "we're player characters!  CHARGE!"

I suspect Been means the third style of "I'm big, tough and strong, so CHARGE! Because everything is a nail, right?"
In other words, the character knows less than the player about tactics.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 13, 2015, 08:27:28 AM
Quote from: Bren;841348
Yes, and?
I think it is the different expectations between ...
This is a "Wargame" were one side wins and the other loses. How do we WIN?
-vs-
This is a "Story" and my character is the Hero. How do I WIN?

The implication is that in a Story the Hero never loses, at least not permanently.
Things are made "exciting" not "deadly" by the GM.  

As you likely know, a Wargame is more deadly.
The GM is not trying to kill you but the opponents are.

chirine ba kal, you did say there were to main play groups, is this the division (or one of) between them?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 13, 2015, 08:51:40 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;841406
I think it is the different expectations between ...
This is a "Wargame" were one side wins and the other loses. How do we WIN?
-vs-
This is a "Story" and my character is the Hero. How do I WIN?

The implication is that in a Story the Hero never loses, at least not permanently.
Things are made "exciting" not "deadly" by the GM.  

As you likely know, a Wargame is more deadly.
The GM is not trying to kill you but the opponents are.

chirine ba kal, you did say there were to main play groups, is this the division (or one of) between them?
=


I'm sorry; I'm not sure what your question is. I think I may have been describing Phil's two groups, which were split between our Thursday Night group and the bulk of Phil's original players.

The split, which is documented in Gary Fine's book - he was a player in Phil's group at the time - was between the guys who liked to have a lot - and I do mean a lot - of inter-player conflict going in the group. As OG has mentioned, back-stabbing, double-dealing, and a lot of pretty outre trouble-making was what they liked to do. They used to get into all sorts of trouble, and cause Phil all sorts of problems - one of them was the guy who zapped an Imperial Princess with an Eye, for example.

A number of us were not too happy with this play style, and we really wanted to just explore Phil's world. Jim Danielson, Rick Bjugen, and I asked Phil is we could have our own group, with the understanding that we would not like to have the same sort of malarky going on, and he agreed. OG and several other players moved over into our group as well, and off we went. We had a very 'cooperative' play style, where we all had our own objectives and goals but still made sure that there was something for everyone. Phil was initially a little apprehensive about the group, but once he realized that it was 'us against Tekumel' and not 'us against Phil', things got much better and we had a lot of fun. My two groups were the same as ours at Phil's, so we had three groups running back in the day with the same philosophy.

The other group was just as 'tactically minded' as we were, but the difference was that they were all out to get each other, no matter what the cost and how much havoc it caused in the world-setting.

Does this help, or have I muddied the waters?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 13, 2015, 08:59:00 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;841406
I think it is the different expectations between ...
This is a "Wargame" were one side wins and the other loses. How do we WIN?
-vs-
This is a "Story" and my character is the Hero. How do I WIN?

The implication is that in a Story the Hero never loses, at least not permanently.
Things are made "exciting" not "deadly" by the GM.  

As you likely know, a Wargame is more deadly.
The GM is not trying to kill you but the opponents are.

chirine ba kal, you did say there were to main play groups, is this the division (or one of) between them?
=

In my inconclusive experience, it's the wargame style that also produces the better stories. The other style doesn't aim at story so much as it's concerned with guarantees to avoid undesirable outcomes at all costs.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;841410

The other group was just as 'tactically minded' as we were, but the difference was that they were all out to get each other, no matter what the cost and how much havoc it caused in the world-setting.

Does this help, or have I muddied the waters?

Does that mean they weren't playing in a party?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 13, 2015, 09:13:23 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;841313
In a word, great!


Of course only weapon arts would have this attitude. It's funny, though, since they also contain unarmed elements, grappling at a minimum.
So this means these practitioners also probably see their weapons as signs of status, wealth and/or skill.


Noted. Still,  they are likely to also use weapons whenever possible, because you know, weapons are better than not having an weapon. At the very least, the victim has less time to shout out.


Note to self, Tsolyani courts suck:D!


Would they provide additional training to a good recruit? That's likely to become a point in the campaign I started tonight:)!
My answer is that they would if you prove yourself. It's not going to change, just wondering how close it is to canon.


Were there any mechanical differences between them in the system you were using at the time?
And I'd expect them all to have combat skills, but some of them would have codified ones and schools, while the rest rely on collections of techniques passed down in a less formal and structured ways.
It helps that I cannot name any place or people that didn't have such traditions...;)


Sounds more like fidayin of the Ismaili Nizari, if you ask me;)! Given the known inspirations for T`ekumel including Central Asia, it makes sense.
Which is not to say less competent than ninjas, maybe even the opposite:D.


Taking it from the top, if I may... :)

Oh, yes, very much so. Warriors with 'prestige' weapons tended to try to lord it over the people with the 'oh-so-common' weapons all the time; usually, it was because they were also rich aristocrats with a high social status. A lot of them got dead - sometimes at my hands - as quite often their social and weapons skills were a lot less then their arrogance and annoyance. I once killed a guy at his own clan house for being rude (to two Imperial Princes, as well as the rest of the guests) and wound up being thanked by the guy's clan for relieving them of a nasty family problem.

Agreed; the assassins' clans have all sorts of useful specialist weapons, and they do use them a lot. It's why I stay on very good terms with them...

The Tsolyani court system is not a great venue for settling disputes; normally the clans and temples and anybody else get together and try to settle disputes as far away from the courts as they can. The courts do hear cases when nobody can agree on anything - we once sat as a Tsolyani court out at Phil's, trying a property dispute case that Phil had been sent from a GM in the UK. The Imperial Government is very 'hands off'; about the only cases that they start are for things like treason and tax evasion, and they tend to move very quickly to deal with the problem. Prisons for 'ordinary criminals' are rare, and usually people like this get executed pretty quickly.

The assassins' clans are resorted to when the courts fail to deliver a judgement; they take on cases for pay, although I had several cases where they took on the cases out of a sense of outrage over some crime that had been committed.

And yes, the clans to 'recruit'; you have to have the right letters of introduction, and know the right people. They do teach some of their less secret martial arts for a fee, but again you have to have an introduction and know the right people - they don't take in folks from off the street. One would not get taught the more recondite skills, but they will give a favored pupil a good grounding in a martial art. Of course, one is then under an obligation to the clan and might be asked to do a 'favor', but that's all to the good - you get more adventures, that way! :) It's very 'canon', at least in Phil's games.

There were no game mechanics differences between martial arts in EPT, but there were in S&G; I'd have to look in T:EPT and "Gardasiyal" to see if there are...

And I do think you have it nailed down, too...

Amazing! I thought that OG and I would be the only ones to think of the Ismaili - we assumed, back in the day, that they were what Phil was referring to, as he was right up front about not knowing all that much about feudal Japan. (He once gave me some static about using Ral Partha 'ninjas' for Black Y and Ndalu people on the game table - he wanted to know why I didn't have any 'proper' assassins... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 13, 2015, 10:15:57 AM
Quote from: Bren;841348
Yes, and?


And I have no tolerance for players who act stupid.  And yes, there are players who seem to like to do the stupidest thing possible, and screech like an anime schoolgirl when things go badly for them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 13, 2015, 10:17:26 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;841391
I suspect Been means the third style of "I'm big, tough and strong, so CHARGE! Because everything is a nail, right?"
In other words, the character knows less than the player about tactics.


There is a difference between "not knowing tactics" and "being stupid."  I've seen too many players use "not knowing tactics" as an excuse for "being stupid."

This happens in wargames too, but there is less tolerance for it.  The inexperienced player is expected to learn, not whine.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 13, 2015, 10:47:59 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;841435
There is a difference between "not knowing tactics" and "being stupid."  I've seen too many players use "not knowing tactics" as an excuse for "being stupid."

This happens in wargames too, but there is less tolerance for it.  The inexperienced player is expected to learn, not whine.

I'm talking about the player knowing but not using said knowledge because the character doesn't know, OG. Is that stupid?


Also, Chirine, before I address your reply, what is Chirine's class, if any? Fighting in full armour and throwing mighty offensive spells and being good enough to teach others the mace and the dagger...
Is he a special class?

The rest when I have the time to write.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 13, 2015, 02:52:57 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;841434
And I have no tolerance for players who act stupid.  And yes, there are players who seem to like to do the stupidest thing possible, and screech like an anime schoolgirl when things go badly for them.
Not at all what I am talking about.

Quote from: AsenRG;841391
I suspect Been means the third style of "I'm big, tough and strong, so CHARGE! Because everything is a nail, right?"
In other words, the character knows less than the player about tactics.
Yes, what I was describing includes this and occasionally the reverse which is actually harder to simulate.

Quote from: Greentongue;841406
I think it is the different expectations between ...
This is a "Wargame" were one side wins and the other loses. How do we WIN?
-vs-
This is a "Story" and my character is the Hero. How do I WIN?
I was talking about neither of those two situations, but a third situation which is a simulation of setting and character. The GM "plays" the setting and the player "plays" the character. If the character is the sort to charge frontally he does, even if that is less than optimal. If the character is the sort to hang back and try for a clear shot with a missile weapon or a flank attack he does that, even when it may be less than optimal. If the character is a skilled, intelligent tactician, then he makes optimal tactical choices in line with his background and talents.

This is different than "Wargame" where every player picks the most optimal tactics they can think of regardless of character traits and abilities and it is different than "Story" where tactics don't really matter since "the play's the thing" and the heroes will succeed or fail based on what makes for a more interesting story and the tactics are just part of the painted scrim that forms the backdrop for outr Story - or should I say, The Play.

And the character simulation I am describing has nothing to do with the sorts of twit players who say "of course I drink from the fountain/pull the lever/open the door without looking first and without bothering to tell anyone what I am doing" or the sort of whiny crybabies who think their big bad PC should succeed at everything, always.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;841410
The other group was just as 'tactically minded' as we were, but the difference was that they were all out to get each other, no matter what the cost and how much havoc it caused in the world-setting.
Yes, been there done that, have the T-shirt. I like the occasional interparty conflict so that the PCs don't  just sound like a STNG captain's meeting at the conference table or a bunch of BORG, but the actual stab you in the back just cause your not looking style of play is less interesting to me and we all gave it up while we were still teenagers.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 13, 2015, 07:45:42 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;841410

Does this help, or have I muddied the waters?

Helps.

In the published EPT rules there is a focus on "Saturday Night Specials".
Was this something that was added as part of the publishing or was it actually how the game was played?

If the play, What was the first SNS you remember?
(Not testing your memory so much as getting a feel for "entry level" SNS.)

What was the best/most memorial SNS?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 13, 2015, 07:49:37 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;841418
Taking it from the top, if I may... :)

Oh, yes, very much so. Warriors with 'prestige' weapons tended to try to lord it over the people with the 'oh-so-common' weapons all the time; usually, it was because they were also rich aristocrats with a high social status. A lot of them got dead - sometimes at my hands - as quite often their social and weapons skills were a lot less then their arrogance and annoyance. I once killed a guy at his own clan house for being rude (to two Imperial Princes, as well as the rest of the guests) and wound up being thanked by the guy's clan for relieving them of a nasty family problem.

Agreed; the assassins' clans have all sorts of useful specialist weapons, and they do use them a lot. It's why I stay on very good terms with them...

The Tsolyani court system is not a great venue for settling disputes; normally the clans and temples and anybody else get together and try to settle disputes as far away from the courts as they can. The courts do hear cases when nobody can agree on anything - we once sat as a Tsolyani court out at Phil's, trying a property dispute case that Phil had been sent from a GM in the UK. The Imperial Government is very 'hands off'; about the only cases that they start are for things like treason and tax evasion, and they tend to move very quickly to deal with the problem. Prisons for 'ordinary criminals' are rare, and usually people like this get executed pretty quickly.

The assassins' clans are resorted to when the courts fail to deliver a judgement; they take on cases for pay, although I had several cases where they took on the cases out of a sense of outrage over some crime that had been committed.

And yes, the clans to 'recruit'; you have to have the right letters of introduction, and know the right people. They do teach some of their less secret martial arts for a fee, but again you have to have an introduction and know the right people - they don't take in folks from off the street. One would not get taught the more recondite skills, but they will give a favored pupil a good grounding in a martial art. Of course, one is then under an obligation to the clan and might be asked to do a 'favor', but that's all to the good - you get more adventures, that way! :) It's very 'canon', at least in Phil's games.

There were no game mechanics differences between martial arts in EPT, but there were in S&G; I'd have to look in T:EPT and "Gardasiyal" to see if there are...

And I do think you have it nailed down, too...

Amazing! I thought that OG and I would be the only ones to think of the Ismaili - we assumed, back in the day, that they were what Phil was referring to, as he was right up front about not knowing all that much about feudal Japan. (He once gave me some static about using Ral Partha 'ninjas' for Black Y and Ndalu people on the game table - he wanted to know why I didn't have any 'proper' assassins... :)
From the top it is:)!

The prestige weapons were once a sign of a professional warrior who can train most of the day. It gets muddy when people with hereditary rights start wearing them for the status without the skill to back the claim up...
I'd expect those people who provoked you were like that?
And kudos to the Professor for the adequate reaction of the NPCs, those morons were endangering the whole clan!

Which is not to say they couldn't pay those assassin clans you keep in good terms with, after thanking you...though the presence and approval of the princes likely worked against that outcome.

I was nodding the whole time reading about the courts, but the ending threw me off. Aren't there forced labour camps, or punishment battalions? Why go straight to the capital punishment?

What kind of crime would make assassin clans working for free? I need to use that in my current campaign;)!

I was thinking about this process, if someone gets an outsourced job and does well with it...what are the odds of getting initiated in the clan on the basis of talent? Assuming there wouldn't be conflict of loyalties, of course. But then a fresh barbarian PC who just arrived to a port of the Empire wouldn't have a clan, so it's perfect!

Well, obviously both can work, then, and wouldn't matter too much. Guess I don't need to add specific rules, though I still might do that for fun;).

Glad to hear I've got that right. Well, it clears this a lot.

Why wouldn't  I think of them? They're the assassins, in more than one way! And they sure had enough techniques, armed or unarmed.
I'd guess you used the ninja mini because of availability:D. Besides, what do you use for an Ismaili assassin, a man dressed like a menial worke or servant,r with a hidden dagger?
Sure they had night operations, but to the best of my knowledge, no specific dress.
(Not that historical ninja actually dressed in black, but that's going offtopic now).

Quote from: Bren;841480
Yes, what I was describing includes this and occasionally the reverse which is actually harder to simulate.

Indeed it's harder, which is why I used this option for the example;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 14, 2015, 07:49:14 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;841414
In my inconclusive experience, it's the wargame style that also produces the better stories. The other style doesn't aim at story so much as it's concerned with guarantees to avoid undesirable outcomes at all costs.


Does that mean they weren't playing in a party?


Agreed, in my experience as well.

No, they were not; they occasionally cooperated, but that was usually in the face of utter extinction. They were all individualists, first and foremost, and they gave Phil a pretty bad time - they were right up front about trying to do their best to 'break' the world, which was a play style in vogue in certain quarters back then...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 14, 2015, 08:18:11 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;841441

Also, Chirine, before I address your reply, what is Chirine's class, if any? Fighting in full armour and throwing mighty offensive spells and being good enough to teach others the mace and the dagger...
Is he a special class?


Let me try to explain this; it's going to be a little complicated, so please bear with me... :)

In EPT I'm a Priest; I'm in the middle of the spectrum, as it were. Warriors don't use magic, and normally can fight better then I can; Magic-users don't normally fight in melees, but can do spells better then I can.

The class system in EPT was a result of Gary Gygax's input on the play-test version of the game. His take on PCs was that having classes was an easy way for beginning players to get their PCs rolled up and into a game, as the rules would set out what the player had to work with for that particular class.

On the other hand, the skills system in EPT was Dave Arneson's input. He felt that players should be able to 'build' their PCs, and then one would be able to simplify the game mechanics by rolling against their skill levels.

Phil, on the other other hand, didn't feel that either approach really fitted in with what he'd had in mind. He liked the idea of an 'occupational' system that was a 'hybrid' of both, where a 'class' could have a range of skills that were normal for that 'job description'.

'Warriors' are pretty straightforward; they are people who fight things, and with various weapons in various types of armor. Generally, they do not use magic; when they do, it's with the technic devices of the Ancients. 'Magic users', on the other hand, are much more complex; in Tekumel, they are all associated with a particular Temple, and all have ranks as priests / priestesses of that temple. Generally, they are adept at various types of sorcery, and are normally unarmored and carry daggers and other such small weapons.

EPT's 'Priest' class, on the other hand, are a hybrid character type that falls in between these two main types. They can wear armor, usually use maces and other such weapons, and have various different functions in the temple.

S&G did all of this differently; there are no 'classes' in those rules it's all skill based.

I am, as far as I know, unique in that I'm the only PC who was a military sorcerer - by definition, I think I'm a 'referee's special'...

And now, we venture into much deeper waters...

If I may, I'd like to diagram the 'priest' types:

All Priests:

Administrator Priests - very often not magic-users
Warrior Priests - temple guards, often not magic-users
Scholar Priests - may often be magic-users (Magic-user, in EPT)
Sorcerer Priests - always magic users (ditto)
Military Priests - extreme specialists; always magic users, and the best ones

I am a ranking Military Priest of one of the war god temples. I have a very different set of skills and abilities then most magic-users, having concentrated on the big battlefield magics. I do have a minor spell corpora, but it's pretty limited. on an individual scale of things, I am a very decent warrior; I come into my own on the battlefield, where I am a pretty powerful asset for a general to use.

As for the mechanics, in EPT Phil usually reached for a set of miniatures rules ("Missum", "Legions of the Petal Throne" or my own "Qadardalikoi") to rum by big spells; otherwise, it was straight EPT.

In the later "Swords and Glory", however, as well as in the new "Bethorm", things are a lot easier as these rules are all skills based - you can create anything, and run it pretty easliy. I had my own spell corpora in "S&G", the 'M series' (m for military) beyond the T for Temple series of spells.

I was, in Phil's campaign, unique. John Tiehen wrote the book on me - literally! - with his "Art of Tactical Sorcery".

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 14, 2015, 08:28:19 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;841541
Helps.

In the published EPT rules there is a focus on "Saturday Night Specials".
Was this something that was added as part of the publishing or was it actually how the game was played?

If the play, What was the first SNS you remember?
(Not testing your memory so much as getting a feel for "entry level" SNS.)

What was the best/most memorial SNS?
=


Both, in my experience. With both Greyhawk and Blackmoor, one had a much better feel / grasp for the world setting as it was pretty much based in the currently-known genre of fantasy literature. EPT / Tekumel, on the other hand, was a cultural terra incognita, and so pretty much everything was the equivalent of the D&D SNS. EPT didn't cover half the stuff we found in the first years of the campaign - and as we discovered it, it made it into the published literature, either in the "Dragon", "The Tekumel Journal", or my own 'zines. I still think that EPT is the best entry level Tekumel RPG, myself.

I think - and I'd have to check my notes, that the first SNS for me, was the South Pole military base of the Ancients.

The very best SNS? For me, hands down, the tubeway car system. Nobody knew it existed until somebody stepped on one of the glowing floor tiles and summoned the car to the station...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 14, 2015, 08:52:44 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;841542
The prestige weapons were once a sign of a professional warrior who can train most of the day. It gets muddy when people with hereditary rights start wearing them for the status without the skill to back the claim up...
I'd expect those people who provoked you were like that?
And kudos to the Professor for the adequate reaction of the NPCs, those morons were endangering the whole clan!

Which is not to say they couldn't pay those assassin clans you keep in good terms with, after thanking you...though the presence and approval of the princes likely worked against that outcome.

I was nodding the whole time reading about the courts, but the ending threw me off. Aren't there forced labour camps, or punishment battalions? Why go straight to the capital punishment?

What kind of crime would make assassin clans working for free? I need to use that in my current campaign;)!

I was thinking about this process, if someone gets an outsourced job and does well with it...what are the odds of getting initiated in the clan on the basis of talent? Assuming there wouldn't be conflict of loyalties, of course. But then a fresh barbarian PC who just arrived to a port of the Empire wouldn't have a clan, so it's perfect!

Well, obviously both can work, then, and wouldn't matter too much. Guess I don't need to add specific rules, though I still might do that for fun;).

Glad to hear I've got that right. Well, it clears this a lot.

Why wouldn't  I think of them? They're the assassins, in more than one way! And they sure had enough techniques, armed or unarmed.
I'd guess you used the ninja mini because of availability:D. Besides, what do you use for an Ismaili assassin, a man dressed like a menial worke or servant,r with a hidden dagger?
Sure they had night operations, but to the best of my knowledge, no specific dress.
(Not that historical ninja actually dressed in black, but that's going offtopic now).

Indeed it's harder, which is why I used this option for the example;).

1. Yes; noble twits with swords were always a pain to have to deal with. The professionals, on the other hand, were always much more reasonable.

2. Tsolyani society is based on 'favors'; I always stayed on the good side of the assassins by being in a position to help them. As a result, they tended to stay on *my* good side as well, and we helped each other out.

3. The court system is simply not interested in anything like the sort of crimes that we think of; the Imperium is only really interested in major crimes like treason, tax evasion, espionage, and breaches of the Great Concordat. Pretty much by definition, getting convicted of any of these will mean a trip to the stake, as one is thus simply too dangerous / stupid to let live. Valuable political prisoners get Ruby-Eyed and dropped into a block of cement, but that's about the only time the Imperium keeps people in prison.

The vast majority of what we'd consider 'crime' is dealt with at much lower and informal level - the clans and temples. Say you had your money pouch stolen in the market place; if you didn't see it happen, and raised a hue and cry, you'd tell the Market Police and offer a reward. The Market Police - a section of the City Guard - would round up a selection of the Usual Suspects, and give them a hard time until the thief was identified. The thief would then be made to return your pouch, you would hand the Market Police a nice reward and be on your way, and the thief would then get the living daylights beaten out of them back at the police station. The police would also confiscate any valuables that the thief had in their possession, and these would be returned to any known owners for the reward.

Similarly, say you are a merchant in the market place and you see a kid stealing some fruit from you. You'd raise a hue and cry, the locals would chase the kid down and bring them back to you; if you knew the kid's clan, you'd march the little rascal off to his clan house where you'd get an apology and some 'shamptla', money in payment for your trouble. You'd thank the clan elders and be on your way; the kid would then get a thrashing from the clan elders and the parents, and be made to work off the penalty by doing something nasty like cleaning out the stables for a week.

In neither case would the Imperium get involved; it's not their business to do so, so neither is a 'capital crime'.

4. There was a case where a wealthy widow was defrauded of her personal funds by her clan. She had no real recourse in the courts, as she wasn't what we call an 'Aridani' woman - who have a lot more rights under the law. Some of her friends mentioned it to the assasssins' clans, who undertook to obtain satisfaction for her as an example of what we call 'noble action'. She got her property back, and the offending clan had to pay shamtla to her as well. She offered a percentage to the assassins' clans to cover their costs, but they would only accept a single gold coin to show that they were doing it as noble people, not as hirelings.

5. Yes, exactly! PCs 'fresh off the boat' are assumed to be outside the society, and thus very useful as retainers and such to do things like this. And they usually need the money, too! :)

6. I now have all my assassins - see Dark Fable Miniatures' website!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 14, 2015, 01:42:27 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;841601

5. Yes, exactly! PCs 'fresh off the boat' are assumed to be outside the society, and thus very useful as retainers and such to do things like this. And they usually need the money, too! :)


With the classic "fresh of the boat" start, what support does a player character have?
Is there assumed to be an "outpost" of their clan in all major cities like Jakalla?
Must they have a patron to have any "standing"?
Can they bluff a status? (in Their land they are ...)

For example, would the Market Police be concerned with their victimization by others?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 14, 2015, 04:53:16 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;841601
6. I now have all my assassins - see Dark Fable Miniatures' website!
Which figures are the assassins?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;841594
...were right up front about trying to do their best to 'break' the world, which was a play style in vogue in certain quarters back then...
It was Bill Keyes who said he played in a break the system style for Runequest. He published a supplement called Runemasters (http://www.amazon.com/Runemasters-Strong-NPCs-Their-RuneQuest/dp/B000L683HK) that was very helpful in pointing out useful group tactics and ways for characters to magically push the system in RQ2. Players like Bill are really helpful if you want to truly play test your rules.

Quote from: Greentongue;841662
For example, would the Market Police be concerned with their victimization by others?
I suspect that would depend on how money anyone thinks they are going to lose if foreigners fresh off the boat get swindled, cheated, or stolen from. Such was often the fate on earth of new immigrants and nobody cared all that much except them and their relatives. I recall one story from my grandfather about getting tricked or swindled after he got of the boat. Émigrés frequently have family or friends of family that help them adapt to the new country. I'd imagine something similar often happens in Tekumel.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 14, 2015, 04:58:33 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;841594
Agreed, in my experience as well.

No, they were not; they occasionally cooperated, but that was usually in the face of utter extinction. They were all individualists, first and foremost, and they gave Phil a pretty bad time - they were right up front about trying to do their best to 'break' the world, which was a play style in vogue in certain quarters back then...

"It's a living world out there. Push it, and it pushes back!"
Quoted from my pre-campaign speech to new players.

Still, how exactly did it look at the table? Say one of them wants to play a scene where he secretly screws over another's business investment. No guarantee it will succeed, so they must play it out. The other one can easily opt out if he knows.
Do Phil and him leave the table to play it out, or go on the honour system? What does everyone else do during this time?
My own solution is to create a scene with another PC and assign NPC roles to the players, but I kinda doubt it would work with those guys.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;841597
Let me try to explain this; it's going to be a little complicated, so please bear with me... :)

In EPT I'm a Priest; I'm in the middle of the spectrum, as it were. Warriors don't use magic, and normally can fight better then I can; Magic-users don't normally fight in melees, but can do spells better then I can.

The class system in EPT was a result of Gary Gygax's input on the play-test version of the game. His take on PCs was that having classes was an easy way for beginning players to get their PCs rolled up and into a game, as the rules would set out what the player had to work with for that particular class.

On the other hand, the skills system in EPT was Dave Arneson's input. He felt that players should be able to 'build' their PCs, and then one would be able to simplify the game mechanics by rolling against their skill levels.

Phil, on the other other hand, didn't feel that either approach really fitted in with what he'd had in mind. He liked the idea of an 'occupational' system that was a 'hybrid' of both, where a 'class' could have a range of skills that were normal for that 'job description'.

Very interesting!
Do you mean Phil would have liked something like Honour and Intrigue's Careers? With or without Traveller-like lifepath character generation? Or am I just projecting what I've been thinking today on MAR Barker?

Quote
'Warriors' are pretty straightforward; they are people who fight things, and with various weapons in various types of armor. Generally, they do not use magic; when they do, it's with the technic devices of the Ancients. 'Magic users', on the other hand, are much more complex; in Tekumel, they are all associated with a particular Temple, and all have ranks as priests / priestesses of that temple. Generally, they are adept at various types of sorcery, and are normally unarmored and carry daggers and other such small weapons.

EPT's 'Priest' class, on the other hand, are a hybrid character type that falls in between these two main types. They can wear armor, usually use maces and other such weapons, and have various different functions in the temple.

S&G did all of this differently; there are no 'classes' in those rules it's all skill based.

I am, as far as I know, unique in that I'm the only PC who was a military sorcerer - by definition, I think I'm a 'referee's special'...

And now, we venture into much deeper waters...

If I may, I'd like to diagram the 'priest' types:

All Priests:

Administrator Priests - very often not magic-users
Warrior Priests - temple guards, often not magic-users
Scholar Priests - may often be magic-users (Magic-user, in EPT)
Sorcerer Priests - always magic users (ditto)
Military Priests - extreme specialists; always magic users, and the best ones

Right. Glad to see things that actually make sense when examined!
(Seriously, that was becoming a rare occurrence lately. The last time things clicked to this extent for me was when playtesting the Price of Power supplement for the Fates Worse Than Death RPG).

Quote
I am a ranking Military Priest of one of the war god temples. I have a very different set of skills and abilities then most magic-users, having concentrated on the big battlefield magics. I do have a minor spell corpora, but it's pretty limited. on an individual scale of things, I am a very decent warrior; I come into my own on the battlefield, where I am a pretty powerful asset for a general to use.

Doesn't that also make your destruction a pretty valuable victory for any opposing general? Like Baron ald?
And have you ever been sent on a diplomatic mission? Possibly as a hint of possible repercussions?

Quote
As for the mechanics, in EPT Phil usually reached for a set of miniatures rules ("Missum", "Legions of the Petal Throne" or my own "Qadardalikoi") to rum by big spells; otherwise, it was straight EPT.

EPT does indeed have a lot of strong points as a ruleset, but the quest for improvement is eternal!

Quote
In the later "Swords and Glory", however, as well as in the new "Bethorm", things are a lot easier as these rules are all skills based - you can create anything, and run it pretty easliy. I had my own spell corpora in "S&G", the 'M series' (m for military) beyond the T for Temple series of spells.

The more we talk, the more tempted I am to buy S&G, too. If only it had legal PDF versions!

Quote
I was, in Phil's campaign, unique. John Tiehen wrote the book on me - literally! - with his "Art of Tactical Sorcery".

Must be nice.
One of my GMs mentioned that the definition for " overpowered opposition " is "the things that an Asen's PC can't destroy in two combat rounds". You seemed to be in a similar position!

Quote
Does this help?

As always, yes.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;841601
1. Yes; noble twits with swords were always a pain to have to deal with. The professionals, on the other hand, were always much more reasonable.

2. Tsolyani society is based on 'favors'; I always stayed on the good side of the assassins by being in a position to help them. As a result, they tended to stay on *my* good side as well, and we helped each other out.

3. The court system is simply not interested in anything like the sort of crimes that we think of; the Imperium is only really interested in major crimes like treason, tax evasion, espionage, and breaches of the Great Concordat. Pretty much by definition, getting convicted of any of these will mean a trip to the stake, as one is thus simply too dangerous / stupid to let live. Valuable political prisoners get Ruby-Eyed and dropped into a block of cement, but that's about the only time the Imperium keeps people in prison.

The vast majority of what we'd consider 'crime' is dealt with at much lower and informal level - the clans and temples. Say you had your money pouch stolen in the market place; if you didn't see it happen, and raised a hue and cry, you'd tell the Market Police and offer a reward. The Market Police - a section of the City Guard - would round up a selection of the Usual Suspects, and give them a hard time until the thief was identified. The thief would then be made to return your pouch, you would hand the Market Police a nice reward and be on your way, and the thief would then get the living daylights beaten out of them back at the police station. The police would also confiscate any valuables that the thief had in their possession, and these would be returned to any known owners for the reward.

Similarly, say you are a merchant in the market place and you see a kid stealing some fruit from you. You'd raise a hue and cry, the locals would chase the kid down and bring them back to you; if you knew the kid's clan, you'd march the little rascal off to his clan house where you'd get an apology and some 'shamptla', money in payment for your trouble. You'd thank the clan elders and be on your way; the kid would then get a thrashing from the clan elders and the parents, and be made to work off the penalty by doing something nasty like cleaning out the stables for a week.

In neither case would the Imperium get involved; it's not their business to do so, so neither is a 'capital crime'.

4. There was a case where a wealthy widow was defrauded of her personal funds by her clan. She had no real recourse in the courts, as she wasn't what we call an 'Aridani' woman - who have a lot more rights under the law. Some of her friends mentioned it to the assasssins' clans, who undertook to obtain satisfaction for her as an example of what we call 'noble action'. She got her property back, and the offending clan had to pay shamtla to her as well. She offered a percentage to the assassins' clans to cover their costs, but they would only accept a single gold coin to show that they were doing it as noble people, not as hirelings.

5. Yes, exactly! PCs 'fresh off the boat' are assumed to be outside the society, and thus very useful as retainers and such to do things like this. And they usually need the money, too! :)

6. I now have all my assassins - see Dark Fable Miniatures' website!

1. As it should be.
2. Sounds like a good long term plan!
3. I wonder how common is this state of affairs in judicial matters across the Five? Going by history, I can see it in any place but YK, possibly with different punishments.
4. Did it gain them respect? A concession from another clan?
5. Indeed. And they can be strikingly competent at times. You just deny having seen the rest of them while they were alive.
6. I still maintain that nothing beats the servant with a dagger for exact representation!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 14, 2015, 05:34:01 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;841719
Still, how exactly did it look at the table?
Presumably via secret notes, premade plans revealed only to the GM, or taking the GM aside and whispering. So long as that is the SOP for play it isn't especially jarring when stuff like that is initiated by the player instead of the GM. People who did that back in the day usually used pretty hard IC vs. OOC information boundaries.

Most people I know who played that way also played Diplomacy which is all about secret meetings, temporary alliances of convenience, and frequently the well timed backstab. Doing that in D&D or EPT is just carrying the Diplomacy mode of play into an RPG instead of using the more miniatures battles mode of play where everyone in the party is considered to be on the same side in a miniatures battle.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 14, 2015, 11:26:22 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;841542

I was nodding the whole time reading about the courts, but the ending threw me off. Aren't there forced labour camps, or punishment battalions? Why go straight to the capital punishment?.


Until fairly recently, as in, since the 18th or 19th century, that's been the default for many societies.

Look at 13t century England.  Fines and or public ridicule (stocks, pillory) for crimes such as selling short measure.  But a thief was simply hanged.

Fines, mutilation, and capital punishment have been the most common judicial penalties since Hammurabi.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 14, 2015, 11:28:12 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;841598
The very best SNS? For me, hands down, the tubeway car system. Nobody knew it existed until somebody stepped on one of the glowing floor tiles and summoned the car to the station...


Oh, sweet Avanthe's breathtakingly perfect breasts, yes.

The VERY best night of Tekumel EVER EVER EVER was the night we hopped into a tubeway car, spun the destination dial, and hit the "Make it So" button.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 14, 2015, 11:44:00 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;841232
Great story! And please tell us of your marriage!
The one in T`ekumel, I mean.

So... no shit, there we were.

(By the way, I was wrong about getting clan membership after winning that ritual battle.  I was not adopted into a clan, though I DID get my first "Gold of Glory.")

It was the siege of Sunraya, which is an ancient Tsauq word meaning "anus of a Chlen beast."

This was a huge siege, and there were a TON of Tsolyani troops there, as well as administration and hangers on.

I was a Molkhar (commander of half a legion) in the Legion of Serqu, Sword of the Empire.  And among the administrative and ritual functionaries was the Lady Nlel, a ritual priestess of the Temple of Karakan, Lord of War of Stability, and my patron diety.

She was also the sister of my General.

SO one hot, sultry night I'm out overseeing some of my lads energetically digging a mine, mostly because it was too damned hot and humid to sleep.  So Lady Nlel, not being able to sleep either, comes out to visit me.

She is wearing a light gauze kilt, and sandals.  Period.

Phil, having taken Hitchcock's point that the imagination is stronger than reality, says only that she is i) very, very lovely and ii) nearly naked.

I was 21 or 22 at the time.

So she reclines on a rock, artlessly striking an incredibly beautiful pose, and starts talking to me.

My character, envisioning his General looking at "One Thousand and One Agonizing Variations on Impalement," is very cautious.

Now, Lady Nlel was NOT an Aridani, one of the independent women of Tsolyanu.  She was what Phil called a "good little clan girl."  For what it's worth, by the bye, that was Phil's invariable description of a Tsolyani woman who was not Aridani... "good little clan girl."

I don't create the news, I merely report it.

Anyway, she start chatting with Mighty Molkar Kornume... small talk, really.  Being paranoid and acutely aware that there is no privacy, I talk about my duty to the Emperor, my duty to my God the Lord Karakan, loyalty to my most exalted General, the nobility of serving the Petal Throne, etc, etc, etc.

To a young woman who is a ritual priestess of the God of War of Stability.  The effect, unknown to me, was like quoting Romeo and Juliet to an overly-romantic seventeen year old girl.

The next morning, my Lord General Serqu returned my salute, but then spoke to me in a much more casual manner than usual, smiling and clapping me on the shoulder.

I was married to his sister shortly thereafter.

It was wonderful because it was so totally unexpected.  I was merely trying to avoid taking improper advantage of a young lady (and subsequent messy and painful death,) and the fact that I well and truly seduced her was entirely unmeant.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 14, 2015, 11:53:39 PM
Also.

I've spoken about the "End Game" of D&D, where you hit Name Level and got a stronghold, and the game was no longer about wandering through dungeons risking awful and messy death for gold.

Tekumel has its "End Game" too, and once I married the mouthwateringly lovely Nlel, I started playing this end game.

Because not only did I marry the sister of my General... I was adopted into his (rather high) Clan, the Golden Sunburst clan.

Being a member of a high ranking clan changes everything.  For one thing, money ceased to have any meaning.  I would chat with one of my uncles... every male in my clan more than 5 years older than me was my uncle, those about my age were brothers, those more than a few years younger were my nephews...

Anyway, I'd chat with an uncle or two, and they'd either say "That is entirely suitable," or "You have no need of that."  And I'd either get what I wanted or not.

I had no desire to play politics, which is why I was strictly an Imperialist.  But my clan had uses for a young, heroic, and not too bright young general.  My legion would be given orders, and I, as PC, would do the best I could.  But behind the scenes, the assignments I was given and the deeds of renown I did worked to the advantage of my clan.

Also, the Tsolyani clan has a very pre-Enlightenment attitude.... I, as an individual, was far less important than my clan.  My clan would not waste me needlessly, but if there was advantage that somehow could be had for my clan by sacrificing me, I would be sacrificed.

The clan provided me with everything I needed and almost everything I wanted, but on the other hand, my every action was expected to reflect well on the Clan.

And Chrine, my trusted aide de camp, and I got along famously despite the fact that he followed a god of Change and I followed a god of Stability, because we were, politically speaking, both Imperialists -- "I serve the Petal Throne, no matter who occupies it."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 15, 2015, 12:30:35 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;841808
SO one hot, sultry night I'm out overseeing some of my lads energetically digging a mine, mostly because it was too damned hot and humid to sleep.  So Lady Nlel, not being able to sleep either, comes out to visit me.
What a fun tale.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 15, 2015, 08:30:36 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;841799
Oh, sweet Avanthe's breathtakingly perfect breasts, yes.

The VERY best night of Tekumel EVER EVER EVER was the night we hopped into a tubeway car, spun the destination dial, and hit the "Make it So" button.


So, for you, a SNS is a special location that provides an unexpected event(s) and not a special opponent/organization?

How common were Ancient Artifacts/Items and how useful?
Are those listed in the EPT rules a small sampling or the "normal things" found?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 15, 2015, 09:08:19 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;841662
With the classic "fresh of the boat" start, what support does a player character have?
Is there assumed to be an "outpost" of their clan in all major cities like Jakalla?
Must they have a patron to have any "standing"?
Can they bluff a status? (in Their land they are ...)

For example, would the Market Police be concerned with their victimization by others?
=


Let me take a run at this, if I may...

Generally, the new 'fresh off the boat' types will arrive at the dock with an introduction to somebody who's already there: "What you want to do is go see Cousin Woofel, who moved to Jakalla about five years ago and has made it big - he'll set you up right, don't you worry!" It may not be a clan, it may be Somebody We Know, but one would usually have an introduction of some sort to Somebody.

Once one arrives, then Cousin Woofel finds out what you are good at, and then provides you with further introductions to people that he knows who might be able to find you a position of some sort. For example, the classic gambit is that Woofel introduces you to Lady Mnella, who regularly hires people like you for little jaunts in the Underworld. This gets you a reputation, and references, and further introductions as Lady Mnella introduces you to her friends as a reliable sort of person who can do those odd jobs that need doing. It's all about favors and connections...

And one can get a patron, but it's not vital; patrons are useful if you are looking to get into the higher reaches of society in a hurry, and are often sources of quick cash, but there is usually a trade-off in that they usually want one to do higher-risk things.

Oh, yes, you can always bluff; I've seen it done. However, I do not advise getting caught; you'll get laughed at, at best, and your reputation ruined. The invitations to all the best parties will dry up, and you'll find yourself living in the gutter in pretty short order.

Yes, the Market Police will be concerned if somebody complains and gets them involved; Cousin Woofel finds out you've been fleeced at dice by one of the locals, and he'll usually complain to a friend, who will have a friend slap the cheater around for you. On the other hand, if the police see you getting attacked or something, they will come to your aid at once. They'll deal with the attacker, and politely mention that they are selling tickets to The Annual Market Police Ball. You would then ask about buying a ticket, and you'd also make sure to tip them for thrashing the lout who attacked you. They will then usually offer to keep an eye on you, to make sure you don't get any more trouble from anyone, as they don't want to have any trouble in the city - and if you are alive and well, then they can get the occasional 'consideration' from you - more tickets to the Ball, Noble Lord? :)

They will not, however, protect you from your own stupidity - if you do something really dumb, like attack somebody in broad daylight, they'll be on you in a moment...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 15, 2015, 09:10:32 AM
Quote from: Bren;841717
Which figures are the assassins?

I suspect that would depend on how money anyone thinks they are going to lose if foreigners fresh off the boat get swindled, cheated, or stolen from. Such was often the fate on earth of new immigrants and nobody cared all that much except them and their relatives. I recall one story from my grandfather about getting tricked or swindled after he got of the boat. Émigrés frequently have family or friends of family that help them adapt to the new country. I'd imagine something similar often happens in Tekumel.


The ones with the knives - seriously! Look at the 'Serving girls with weapons', as well as the specific assassin figures.

Yes, exactly!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 15, 2015, 09:25:09 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;841719

Still, how exactly did it look at the table? Say one of them wants to play a scene where he secretly screws over another's business investment. No guarantee it will succeed, so they must play it out. The other one can easily opt out if he knows.
Do Phil and him leave the table to play it out, or go on the honour system? What does everyone else do during this time?
My own solution is to create a scene with another PC and assign NPC roles to the players, but I kinda doubt it would work with those guys.


Very interesting!
Do you mean Phil would have liked something like Honour and Intrigue's Careers? With or without Traveller-like lifepath character generation? Or am I just projecting what I've been thinking today on MAR Barker?


Right. Glad to see things that actually make sense when examined!
(Seriously, that was becoming a rare occurrence lately. The last time things clicked to this extent for me was when playtesting the Price of Power supplement for the Fates Worse Than Death RPG).


Doesn't that also make your destruction a pretty valuable victory for any opposing general? Like Baron ald?
And have you ever been sent on a diplomatic mission? Possibly as a hint of possible repercussions?


EPT does indeed have a lot of strong points as a ruleset, but the quest for improvement is eternal!


The more we talk, the more tempted I am to buy S&G, too. If only it had legal PDF versions!


Must be nice.
One of my GMs mentioned that the definition for " overpowered opposition " is "the things that an Asen's PC can't destroy in two combat rounds". You seemed to be in a similar position!


Two-parter, here.

It was very, very nasty at the table, and it made for very uncomfortable game sessions. One of the guys would announce that he was going to mess with you that session, and dive right into doing so.

I think he would have; he just winged it on the occupational / career paths, as he'd been around enough to do it.

Great - I hoped I could explain it a little better... :)

Oh, yes, I was a very high-value target! Which is why I hired Vrisa as a body-guard; I wanted to stay alive as long as I could. Later on, my legion assigned six of the toughest troopers we had as my full-time personal body guard, and in battles I normally had two sections (20 to a section) of picked soldiers as a larger guard unit. Due to my command style, which was getting as up-front and personal as possible, they usually wound up in the thick of things as the legion's crack shock troops; after I went through all the other-planar energy available, I'd be heavy infantry and at the point of attack with the reserves. Used to drive the poor Adjutant crazy, sad to say.

Oddly enough, I know Baron Ald personally; we're actually pretty good friends. Vrisa is his clan cousin, the Vishetru clan of Saa Alliqui - the royal family.

Oh, yes, I'd get sent out on diplomatic missions all the time! I was a big lot of intimidation, especially with either Vrisa or my legion (and sometimes both!) in tow. The message being sent was usually "Mess with the Imperium, and Chirine here burns your country down." It made for a lot of fun adventures!!!

Get "Bethorm". It's S&G, all cleaned up, and plays very well.

Yeah, I'd agree - once I take the field, things get very nasty very quickly... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 15, 2015, 09:28:39 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;841719

As always, yes.


1. As it should be.
2. Sounds like a good long term plan!
3. I wonder how common is this state of affairs in judicial matters across the Five? Going by history, I can see it in any place but YK, possibly with different punishments.
4. Did it gain them respect? A concession from another clan?
5. Indeed. And they can be strikingly competent at times. You just deny having seen the rest of them while they were alive.
6. I still maintain that nothing beats the servant with a dagger for exact representation!


3. Pretty cmmon, you have it down quite well, actually.
4. Yes, to both.
6. Which is why I like the Dark Fable line; it's all the 'civilian' types that you'd find in the palace or clan house. It's Ancient Egyptian, which fits right in with Tekumel. Great figures, and fun to paint!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 15, 2015, 09:30:53 AM
Quote from: Bren;841733
Presumably via secret notes, premade plans revealed only to the GM, or taking the GM aside and whispering. So long as that is the SOP for play it isn't especially jarring when stuff like that is initiated by the player instead of the GM. People who did that back in the day usually used pretty hard IC vs. OOC information boundaries.

Most people I know who played that way also played Diplomacy which is all about secret meetings, temporary alliances of convenience, and frequently the well timed backstab. Doing that in D&D or EPT is just carrying the Diplomacy mode of play into an RPG instead of using the more miniatures battles mode of play where everyone in the party is considered to be on the same side in a miniatures battle.


No, they didn't do any of this; it was all right up front, right across the table, and things would get very nasty very quickly during game sessions. One of them would simply tell you that he was out to get you that night, and you'd wind up fighting him and any allies all night. Very nasty, and very little Tekumel got played. Which is why we split...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 15, 2015, 09:35:05 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;841808
So... no shit, there we were.

(By the way, I was wrong about getting clan membership after winning that ritual battle.  I was not adopted into a clan, though I DID get my first "Gold of Glory.")

It was the siege of Sunraya, which is an ancient Tsauq word meaning "anus of a Chlen beast."

This was a huge siege, and there were a TON of Tsolyani troops there, as well as administration and hangers on.

I was a Molkhar (commander of half a legion) in the Legion of Serqu, Sword of the Empire.  And among the administrative and ritual functionaries was the Lady Nlel, a ritual priestess of the Temple of Karakan, Lord of War of Stability, and my patron diety.

She was also the sister of my General.

SO one hot, sultry night I'm out overseeing some of my lads energetically digging a mine, mostly because it was too damned hot and humid to sleep.  So Lady Nlel, not being able to sleep either, comes out to visit me.

She is wearing a light gauze kilt, and sandals.  Period.

Phil, having taken Hitchcock's point that the imagination is stronger than reality, says only that she is i) very, very lovely and ii) nearly naked.

I was 21 or 22 at the time.

So she reclines on a rock, artlessly striking an incredibly beautiful pose, and starts talking to me.

My character, envisioning his General looking at "One Thousand and One Agonizing Variations on Impalement," is very cautious.

Now, Lady Nlel was NOT an Aridani, one of the independent women of Tsolyanu.  She was what Phil called a "good little clan girl."  For what it's worth, by the bye, that was Phil's invariable description of a Tsolyani woman who was not Aridani... "good little clan girl."

I don't create the news, I merely report it.

Anyway, she start chatting with Mighty Molkar Kornume... small talk, really.  Being paranoid and acutely aware that there is no privacy, I talk about my duty to the Emperor, my duty to my God the Lord Karakan, loyalty to my most exalted General, the nobility of serving the Petal Throne, etc, etc, etc.

To a young woman who is a ritual priestess of the God of War of Stability.  The effect, unknown to me, was like quoting Romeo and Juliet to an overly-romantic seventeen year old girl.

The next morning, my Lord General Serqu returned my salute, but then spoke to me in a much more casual manner than usual, smiling and clapping me on the shoulder.

I was married to his sister shortly thereafter.

It was wonderful because it was so totally unexpected.  I was merely trying to avoid taking improper advantage of a young lady (and subsequent messy and painful death,) and the fact that I well and truly seduced her was entirely unmeant.


It was a great night; we had an immense amount of fun with this. The next day, we were trying to have a talk in private to sort this out, and wound up doing  the 'breakfast in the bastion' scene from "Three/Four Musketeers"; we'd all see the movie version with Michael York, and we all knew the dialog by heart. So, we did the scene - "This wince does not travel well!" - and finally tipped the parapet over onto the people trying to attack us.

It was wonderful - maybe a SNS kind of thing?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 15, 2015, 09:40:34 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;841813
Also.

I've spoken about the "End Game" of D&D, where you hit Name Level and got a stronghold, and the game was no longer about wandering through dungeons risking awful and messy death for gold.

Tekumel has its "End Game" too, and once I married the mouthwateringly lovely Nlel, I started playing this end game.

Because not only did I marry the sister of my General... I was adopted into his (rather high) Clan, the Golden Sunburst clan.

Being a member of a high ranking clan changes everything.  For one thing, money ceased to have any meaning.  I would chat with one of my uncles... every male in my clan more than 5 years older than me was my uncle, those about my age were brothers, those more than a few years younger were my nephews...

Anyway, I'd chat with an uncle or two, and they'd either say "That is entirely suitable," or "You have no need of that."  And I'd either get what I wanted or not.

I had no desire to play politics, which is why I was strictly an Imperialist.  But my clan had uses for a young, heroic, and not too bright young general.  My legion would be given orders, and I, as PC, would do the best I could.  But behind the scenes, the assignments I was given and the deeds of renown I did worked to the advantage of my clan.

Also, the Tsolyani clan has a very pre-Enlightenment attitude.... I, as an individual, was far less important than my clan.  My clan would not waste me needlessly, but if there was advantage that somehow could be had for my clan by sacrificing me, I would be sacrificed.

The clan provided me with everything I needed and almost everything I wanted, but on the other hand, my every action was expected to reflect well on the Clan.

And Chrine, my trusted aide de camp, and I got along famously despite the fact that he followed a god of Change and I followed a god of Stability, because we were, politically speaking, both Imperialists -- "I serve the Petal Throne, no matter who occupies it."


This. OG became the Glorious General, with his own legion, and a very well-connected nobleman. Pretty good for an guy fresh off the boat, eh? Yes, OG was one of the people brought into the campaign that way.

I got a reputation as a very good staff officer, and after a career as Imperial errand-boy and trouble-shooter (usually literally) I got to be a provincial governor and eventually a condottieri general with my own legion. Not bad, for a kid from the Chakas... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 15, 2015, 09:48:28 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;841874
So, for you, a SNS is a special location that provides an unexpected event(s) and not a special opponent/organization?

How common were Ancient Artifacts/Items and how useful?
Are those listed in the EPT rules a small sampling or the "normal things" found?
=


Well, yes, at least with Phil. Most of the 'opposition' was kind of the run-of-the-mill normal stuff; horrible creatures, nasty politicians, evil-doers of all sorts, that kind of thing. It was all kind of all in a days work for us adventurers...

I don't recall any SNS opponents; Phil just didn't play that way. Cool locations, fiendish traps, amazing stuff - that was his style.

Ancient stuff was pretty common in the Underworlds or in the installations of the Ancients. Outside of those two main sources, they were pretty rare. The Undying Wizards usually had a lot of this kind of thing as well, but we tried to avoid them as much as we could; the vast majority of them are nuttier then fruitcakes.

The EPT lists are the common items - there's a list of unique items, too. Great stuff to have, but hard to find and you had to fight the nasties to get them...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 15, 2015, 10:58:34 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;841886
No, they didn't do any of this; it was all right up front, right across the table, and things would get very nasty very quickly during game sessions. One of them would simply tell you that he was out to get you that night, and you'd wind up fighting him and any allies all night. Very nasty, and very little Tekumel got played. Which is why we split...
That is odd. And stupidly confrontational. I've never seen anyone play quite like that. I see why you split off from that group.

Now in my youth I'd have been sorely tempted to gather a few friends together and see what useful stuff I could take off their corpses. For a several weeks in a row. At which point, first levels probably still have a few kraitars and some armor or weapons I can issue to new followers. Maybe by then it would be lesson learned.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 15, 2015, 08:02:59 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;841880
Let me take a run at this, if I may...

Generally, the new 'fresh off the boat' types will arrive at the dock with an introduction to somebody who's already there: "What you want to do is go see Cousin Woofel, who moved to Jakalla about five years ago and has made it big - he'll set you up right, don't you worry!" It may not be a clan, it may be Somebody We Know, but one would usually have an introduction of some sort to Somebody.


I was inspired by "Den" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Den_(comics)) as an example of how to start. While I had success with that back in the day.
Now there are a lot of "expectations" that don't allow that to work.
Your example sounds good and obviously works. Thanks

While I was in China many years ago, there were people that did everything.
For example, someone sat in the elevator and pushed the button for you.
In a high population density setting like Tekumel, is the excess of labor used for every imaginable task?

There was once a discussion of the lack of iron as a health issue at some site.
Was this an issue in game with huge mushroom farms on the "1st level" of the underworld, or was it hand-waved away?

In one of the games I tried I had two main factions. One a cartel of clans specializing in providing smoked sea food to the military. The other cartel specializing in salted sea food.
Is this something that you would expect? Are things more fragmented or
would there be one clan that did everything?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 15, 2015, 09:05:22 PM
Quote from: Bren;841902
That is odd. And stupidly confrontational. I've never seen anyone play quite like that. I see why you split off from that group.

Now in my youth I'd have been sorely tempted to gather a few friends together and see what useful stuff I could take off their corpses. For a several weeks in a row. At which point, first levels probably still have a few kraitars and some armor or weapons I can issue to new followers. Maybe by then it would be lesson learned.


Yep; it was awful, and not any fun at all. We were much happier after we left, and so was Phil. Over the years, they did try to pull some tricks on us, but we simply reused to play along with them.

I'd agree with you, but that kind of thing was what they wanted - the results were not important, the in-fighting was the goal in and of itself. They never did learn the lesson, either; several of them that I've talked to still play that way, and wonder why they don't get players... :O
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 15, 2015, 09:34:58 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;842011
I was inspired by "Den" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Den_(comics)) as an example of how to start. While I had success with that back in the day.
Now there are a lot of "expectations" that don't allow that to work.
Your example sounds good and obviously works. Thanks

While I was in China many years ago, there were people that did everything.
For example, someone sat in the elevator and pushed the button for you.
In a high population density setting like Tekumel, is the excess of labor used for every imaginable task?

There was once a discussion of the lack of iron as a health issue at some site.
Was this an issue in game with huge mushroom farms on the "1st level" of the underworld, or was it hand-waved away?

In one of the games I tried I had two main factions. One a cartel of clans specializing in providing smoked sea food to the military. The other cartel specializing in salted sea food.
Is this something that you would expect? Are things more fragmented or
would there be one clan that did everything?
=


You're very welcome! Yes, the original approach was all right, but even Phil gave it up after people got some play experience under their belts. I had the same thing happen to me at Gary Con, and OG (and thank again for playing, Glorious General!) commented that one of the big reasons we had such a good time was that all of the players had had thirty years' of game play experience in RPGs, when back in the day we'd had none...

Re the labor, yes. When Vrisa used to go shopping in the marketplace, I'd be there to watch her back; we'd accumulate a retinue of small to medium children, market urchins of all sorts, who would tag along to 'be helpful. We never, every carried anything ourselves - this ad hoc and then later formal retinue would do all of that for us. (For a suitable - and usually small - tip, of course.) I eventually hired some dozen bearers for a trip from Meku to Fasiltum, and they have stayed with me ever since - I even have my own personal Chlen-cart for my luggage.

This is based entirely on Phil's time in India, by the way. Word would get out that 'Barker Sahib' would be coming to the village to learn their language, and Phil told us that the entire village would turn out at either the bus stop of the train station to meet him. The menfolk, supervised by the village headman and elders, would divide up his luggage to carry, while the womenfolk would fuss over him and find out what he liked to eat. The entire procession would then walk to the village, where Phil would get started with his research and everyone would sit around watching the fun. Phil was very worried, initially, that he would not b able to pay them for their services, but he learned very quickly that they refused to be paid - it was an honor for them to be the hosts of the learned scholar, the Barker Sahib. So, Phil would carefully negotiate with the headman and the elders to see if they would accept a gift as a token of his esteem, which they would, and he found that it cost him all of fifty pice, which was a whopping $0.25. He said that this really brought home to him the relative values of moneys in different level of society - as a poor Fulbright Scholar, he was vasty wealthy in comparison to these rural communities.

This carried over into Tekumel, as you might gather. And we got to see his photos of all this too - very wonderful, and I use this in my games... :)

The lack of iron is way overblown by quite a few fans. The Ancients mined out the bulk of the ores back in their time, but there's plenty left for dietary needs and such. It's simply very hard to locate and work, with the technology we have available. For a very good discussion of this, see Neil Stephensen's "Quicksilver" books and look for the section on making 'Wootz', or look it up on the web. There's iron and steel to be had, as well as more exotic alloys, but you really have to work at it.

(If I may, I'd like to thank Phil - where ever he is - for the tulwar he gave me for my 25th birthday as a thank-you for my Tekumel work; I found out, decades later, that it's made of wootz. I nearly fainted...)

Oh, yes, you do get cartels and alliances like this! Some clans specialize in some things or trades, and effectively have a monopoly; others are more generally based, and trade with the others for their products - when I needed to rebuild the palace in Hekellu, I contracted with a 'general' clan, which then sub-contracted with the specialists for their unique services.

And I'd be expecting that the two cartels / clans you mention would be in competition to feed my troops, too. Both would vie to get my custom, and I'd also expect that they'd meet 'on the side' to make sure that everyone got a decent price for the fish. "People, all I want is to feed my troops. Bill me, and we'll all be happy. Cheat me, and i'll be very unhappy. Are we all clear on this? Good, good..." :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 15, 2015, 11:29:57 PM
Quote from: Bren;841902
That is odd. And stupidly confrontational. I've never seen anyone play quite like that. I see why you split off from that group.

Now in my youth I'd have been sorely tempted to gather a few friends together and see what useful stuff I could take off their corpses. For a several weeks in a row. At which point, first levels probably still have a few kraitars and some armor or weapons I can issue to new followers. Maybe by then it would be lesson learned.


I won't have much time for long posts until the weekend, but...

There is an element of "different strokes for different folks."

A number of the Other Group (tm)(pat pend)(reg u.s. pat off) folks were fanatical Diplomacy players.  We all knew Dippy and played it some; but those guys were hard core, of the "weekend long marathon sessions of game after game" and when "what shall we play" came up, their answer was ALWAYS Diplomacy.

I think that when you concentrate enough on one game, you start to play everything in that style.

My 2 Qirgal.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 16, 2015, 12:57:40 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842055
A number of the Other Group (tm)(pat pend)(reg u.s. pat off) folks were fanatical Diplomacy players.
My original thought was that they were fond of Diplomacy. Back in the mid 1970s we played that along with other wargames and there was definitely some overlap between people who liked real intraparty conflict (serious theft and real violence as opposed to mere bickering and threat displays) and people who really liked diplomacy. But I was surprised by Chirine's comment that they would openly announce they were going after someone. That just seemed way too unsubtle for a skilled Diplomacy player, which is what confused me.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 16, 2015, 08:03:45 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842055
I won't have much time for long posts until the weekend, but...

There is an element of "different strokes for different folks."

A number of the Other Group (tm)(pat pend)(reg u.s. pat off) folks were fanatical Diplomacy players.  We all knew Dippy and played it some; but those guys were hard core, of the "weekend long marathon sessions of game after game" and when "what shall we play" came up, their answer was ALWAYS Diplomacy.

I think that when you concentrate enough on one game, you start to play everything in that style.

My 2 Qirgal.


I'd agree with this; I didn't mind then playing that way when they played "diplomacy", it was when they pulled that crap in Phil's campaign.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 16, 2015, 08:13:28 AM
Quote from: Bren;842076
My original thought was that they were fond of Diplomacy. Back in the mid 1970s we played that along with other wargames and there was definitely some overlap between people who liked real intraparty conflict (serious theft and real violence as opposed to mere bickering and threat displays) and people who really liked diplomacy. But I was surprised by Chirine's comment that they would openly announce they were going after someone. That just seemed way too unsubtle for a skilled Diplomacy player, which is what confused me.

Yeah, well, they weren't all that skilled as "Diplomacy" players, the very few times that I played. Subtle, they were not.

They could be really good players out at Phil's when they wanted to, but they liked to screw people over a lot. Certainly 'different strokes for different folks', which is why we spilt off and had a whole lot of fun for over a decade. I do not tolerate this kind of crap in my own group, and we've managed to keep going for over another decade.

And yes, I was the GM who kicked Lady Anka'a hi Qoyelmu - one of Phil's original players from 1974 - out of my group for this kind of malarky. I practice what I preach, and all that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 16, 2015, 08:49:44 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;842037
And I'd be expecting that the two cartels / clans you mention would be in competition to feed my troops, too. Both would vie to get my custom, and I'd also expect that they'd meet 'on the side' to make sure that everyone got a decent price for the fish. "People, all I want is to feed my troops. Bill me, and we'll all be happy. Cheat me, and i'll be very unhappy. Are we all clear on this? Good, good..." :)


To what extremes could "be in competition" be expected to go?
Skulduggery, slander, murder, poison, impersonation, diversions, ...

Would the imperial authorities need to get involved? If so, what form would that take? Would it have to be for government contracts?

On the other hand, how much collusion is there between clans that provide the same resources/services?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 16, 2015, 09:07:16 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;842138
To what extremes could "be in competition" be expected to go?
Skulduggery, slander, murder, poison, impersonation, diversions, ...

Would the imperial authorities need to get involved? If so, what form would that take? Would it have to be for government contracts?

On the other hand, how much collusion is there between clans that provide the same resources/services?
=

Well, it depends on how the clans/cartels involved have been dealing with each other in the past. Some clans are at deadly feud with each other, and have been for centuries, and there's no holds barred; all of the nastier stuff takes place out at sea or in the Underworlds, so as not to get the Imperium involved. This kind of feuding is forbidden out in the open, per the Great Concordat - see also the Ancient Egyptian concept of Ma'at - so open conflict is not allowed.

The Imperium will get involved only if there is open fighting going on, and then the troops will simply crush both sides. Anybody found guilty of revolt, rebellion, or tax evasion gets the high ride, and the surviving clan members are told to keep it down to a dull roar or they all get the same treatment.

Supply contracts are let by the individual legion commander, not by the Imperium's Palace of Ever-Glorious War; legion are paid for by individual patrons, temples, and clans. The only legions paid for directly by the Imperium are the OAL and the Legion of Ketl, who run the Imperial prisons. Everything else is paid for individually, which is why there is so much skulduggery and chaos in the logistics of the armies of the Five Empires. You also have to move the supplies, which is the job of the 'transport' clans, which allow for more peculation and skulduggery. And all of which provides more options for adventures...

And yes, there is also lots of collusion, too. When the money is flowing, like it was for the war, then all the contractors / clans tend to collude to make sure that the goods flow and the cash keeps coming - the "you help me today, and I'll help you tomorrow" sort of thing.

Is this helping? Am I explaining things decently for you? (I worry...)

EDIT: I should also add that this is why really good staff officers are treasured by their generals - ask OG / the Glorious General; he and his troops never went hungry when I was his staffer... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 16, 2015, 10:18:11 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;842141

EDIT: I should also add that this is why really good staff officers are treasured by their generals - ask OG / the Glorious General; he and his troops never went hungry when I was his staffer... :)


A quick note ere I dash off to work...


Indeed so; Chirine was a definite asset to my Legion.

And speaking of skullduggery in supply trains, mopery, dopery, muggery, buggery, and loitering with intent to loaf....

there was the night we were helping General Kutume open some crates labeled

"Bolts, Crossbow, for harming of enemy, 1000 per case, 10 cases"

and a Mru'ur sits up and says "Hello, sailor!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 16, 2015, 10:19:50 AM
Quote from: Bren;842076
My original thought was that they were fond of Diplomacy. Back in the mid 1970s we played that along with other wargames and there was definitely some overlap between people who liked real intraparty conflict (serious theft and real violence as opposed to mere bickering and threat displays) and people who really liked diplomacy. But I was surprised by Chirine's comment that they would openly announce they were going after someone. That just seemed way too unsubtle for a skilled Diplomacy player, which is what confused me.


Not all of them were GOOD Dippy players.  Some just liked the backstabbing part of Dippy, some were good players, some just liked stirring shit up and metaphorically poking people with sticks, and at least one was an out and out psychopath, I think.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 16, 2015, 10:30:35 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842149
A quick note ere I dash off to work...


Indeed so; Chirine was a definite asset to my Legion.

And speaking of skullduggery in supply trains, mopery, dopery, muggery, buggery, and loitering with intent to loaf....

there was the night we were helping General Kutume open some crates labeled

"Bolts, Crossbow, for harming of enemy, 1000 per case, 10 cases"

and a Mru'ur sits up and says "Hello, sailor!"


Ah, dear old Qutmu's misplaced shipment of 'crossbow ammunition'... :)

Well, I tried to make sure the troops - and us - got fed... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 16, 2015, 10:31:41 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842150
Not all of them were GOOD Dippy players.  Some just liked the backstabbing part of Dippy, some were good players, some just liked stirring shit up and metaphorically poking people with sticks, and at least one was an out and out psychopath, I think.


Yeah, I'd agree with that assessment. I was not sorry to leave that group, I tell ya...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 16, 2015, 12:50:57 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842150
Not all of them were GOOD Dippy players.  Some just liked the backstabbing part of Dippy, some were good players, some just liked stirring shit up and metaphorically poking people with sticks, and at least one was an out and out psychopath, I think.

Man I hate it when dipshits and psychopaths give backstabbing a bad name. It just ruins the fun for the rest of us. ;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 16, 2015, 02:08:36 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;842141

Is this helping? Am I explaining things decently for you? (I worry...)


YES
It is good to know that "I'm doing it right" for many things and it provides a lot of ideas for things I haven't had the pleasure of getting to yet.

One idea I had was smuggling a chest of sex toys into the chambers of "A Good Clan Girl" but wasn't sure if this would effect their marriage proposal or be ignored.
What does being "A Good Clan Girl" actually mean in game terms? *

Another idea was the recovery of a favored heir that had been kidnapped (and transported unknowingly) to effect inter-clan negotiations. **

Another was the recovery of a body part being retained in a box to prevent its owner's regenerating. (reproductive organ) *

Maybe a little too * "sex" and ** "pedophile" orientated
but "Bad People" for motivation to oppose, without being just "loot".
I like things to be "Black & White" in my Sword & Planet style games without being graphic.

From what you say, these may be a little too "above ground"?

How likely is it that the "country bumpkin/foreign scum" would be scapegoated?
Would the Character be more valuable as an "unmarked piece in the game" or just considered disposable? (pure GM call?)
Does who they know / who knows them matter the most when things go badly?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 16, 2015, 07:20:52 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;841798
Until fairly recently, as in, since the 18th or 19th century, that's been the default for many societies.

Look at 13t century England.  Fines and or public ridicule (stocks, pillory) for crimes such as selling short measure.  But a thief was simply hanged.

Fines, mutilation, and capital punishment have been the most common judicial penalties since Hammurabi.

I'm not arguing for prison, OG. I mean fines, ostracism, mutilation, exile, slavery, work camps and capital punishment.

Quote from: Old Geezer;841808
So... no shit, there we were.

(By the way, I was wrong about getting clan membership after winning that ritual battle.  I was not adopted into a clan, though I DID get my first "Gold of Glory.")

It was the siege of Sunraya, which is an ancient Tsauq word meaning "anus of a Chlen beast."

This was a huge siege, and there were a TON of Tsolyani troops there, as well as administration and hangers on.

I was a Molkhar (commander of half a legion) in the Legion of Serqu, Sword of the Empire.  And among the administrative and ritual functionaries was the Lady Nlel, a ritual priestess of the Temple of Karakan, Lord of War of Stability, and my patron diety.

She was also the sister of my General.

SO one hot, sultry night I'm out overseeing some of my lads energetically digging a mine, mostly because it was too damned hot and humid to sleep.  So Lady Nlel, not being able to sleep either, comes out to visit me.

She is wearing a light gauze kilt, and sandals.  Period.

Phil, having taken Hitchcock's point that the imagination is stronger than reality, says only that she is i) very, very lovely and ii) nearly naked.

I was 21 or 22 at the time.

So she reclines on a rock, artlessly striking an incredibly beautiful pose, and starts talking to me.

My character, envisioning his General looking at "One Thousand and One Agonizing Variations on Impalement," is very cautious.

Now, Lady Nlel was NOT an Aridani, one of the independent women of Tsolyanu.  She was what Phil called a "good little clan girl."  For what it's worth, by the bye, that was Phil's invariable description of a Tsolyani woman who was not Aridani... "good little clan girl."

I don't create the news, I merely report it.

Anyway, she start chatting with Mighty Molkar Kornume... small talk, really.  Being paranoid and acutely aware that there is no privacy, I talk about my duty to the Emperor, my duty to my God the Lord Karakan, loyalty to my most exalted General, the nobility of serving the Petal Throne, etc, etc, etc.

To a young woman who is a ritual priestess of the God of War of Stability.  The effect, unknown to me, was like quoting Romeo and Juliet to an overly-romantic seventeen year old girl.

The next morning, my Lord General Serqu returned my salute, but then spoke to me in a much more casual manner than usual, smiling and clapping me on the shoulder.

I was married to his sister shortly thereafter.

It was wonderful because it was so totally unexpected.  I was merely trying to avoid taking improper advantage of a young lady (and subsequent messy and painful death,) and the fact that I well and truly seduced her was entirely unmeant.

:D
OK, that was a lovely story and a masterful turn on Phil's side as a GM after you gave him no rope to hang you by!

Quote from: Old Geezer;841813
Also.

I've spoken about the "End Game" of D&D, where you hit Name Level and got a stronghold, and the game was no longer about wandering through dungeons risking awful and messy death for gold.

Tekumel has its "End Game" too, and once I married the mouthwateringly lovely Nlel, I started playing this end game.

Because not only did I marry the sister of my General... I was adopted into his (rather high) Clan, the Golden Sunburst clan.

Being a member of a high ranking clan changes everything.  For one thing, money ceased to have any meaning.  I would chat with one of my uncles... every male in my clan more than 5 years older than me was my uncle, those about my age were brothers, those more than a few years younger were my nephews...

Anyway, I'd chat with an uncle or two, and they'd either say "That is entirely suitable," or "You have no need of that."  And I'd either get what I wanted or not.

I had no desire to play politics, which is why I was strictly an Imperialist.  But my clan had uses for a young, heroic, and not too bright young general.  My legion would be given orders, and I, as PC, would do the best I could.  But behind the scenes, the assignments I was given and the deeds of renown I did worked to the advantage of my clan.

Also, the Tsolyani clan has a very pre-Enlightenment attitude.... I, as an individual, was far less important than my clan.  My clan would not waste me needlessly, but if there was advantage that somehow could be had for my clan by sacrificing me, I would be sacrificed.

The clan provided me with everything I needed and almost everything I wanted, but on the other hand, my every action was expected to reflect well on the Clan.

And Chrine, my trusted aide de camp, and I got along famously despite the fact that he followed a god of Change and I followed a god of Stability, because we were, politically speaking, both Imperialists -- "I serve the Petal Throne, no matter who occupies it."

Very good observation, OG:).
See, you describe pretty much the state of the game my players like the most. And it is a variant of "being a noble", not unlike D&D.
I'm pretty sure my regular players consider everything before that to be an intro;). It's been that way for almost a decade now... Though I admit this thread gave me some ideas how to improve on it, it's been that way for almost a decade now!
Plus les choses changent...

Quote from: Greentongue;841874
So, for you, a SNS is a special location that provides an unexpected event(s) and not a special opponent/organization?

Why should it be either/or?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;841880
Let me take a run at this, if I may...

Generally, the new 'fresh off the boat' types will arrive at the dock with an introduction to somebody who's already there: "What you want to do is go see Cousin Woofel, who moved to Jakalla about five years ago and has made it big - he'll set you up right, don't you worry!" It may not be a clan, it may be Somebody We Know, but one would usually have an introduction of some sort to Somebody.

Once one arrives, then Cousin Woofel finds out what you are good at, and then provides you with further introductions to people that he knows who might be able to find you a position of some sort. For example, the classic gambit is that Woofel introduces you to Lady Mnella, who regularly hires people like you for little jaunts in the Underworld. This gets you a reputation, and references, and further introductions as Lady Mnella introduces you to her friends as a reliable sort of person who can do those odd jobs that need doing. It's all about favors and connections...

And one can get a patron, but it's not vital; patrons are useful if you are looking to get into the higher reaches of society in a hurry, and are often sources of quick cash, but there is usually a trade-off in that they usually want one to do higher-risk things.

Oh, yes, you can always bluff; I've seen it done. However, I do not advise getting caught; you'll get laughed at, at best, and your reputation ruined. The invitations to all the best parties will dry up, and you'll find yourself living in the gutter in pretty short order.

Yes, the Market Police will be concerned if somebody complains and gets them involved; Cousin Woofel finds out you've been fleeced at dice by one of the locals, and he'll usually complain to a friend, who will have a friend slap the cheater around for you. On the other hand, if the police see you getting attacked or something, they will come to your aid at once. They'll deal with the attacker, and politely mention that they are selling tickets to The Annual Market Police Ball. You would then ask about buying a ticket, and you'd also make sure to tip them for thrashing the lout who attacked you. They will then usually offer to keep an eye on you, to make sure you don't get any more trouble from anyone, as they don't want to have any trouble in the city - and if you are alive and well, then they can get the occasional 'consideration' from you - more tickets to the Ball, Noble Lord?

They will not, however, protect you from your own stupidity - if you do something really dumb, like attack somebody in broad daylight, they'll be on you in a moment...

I need to have that summary printed out...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;841883

It was very, very nasty at the table, and it made for very uncomfortable game sessions. One of the guys would announce that he was going to mess with you that session, and dive right into doing so.

I remember this happening on my table.
The griefer ended up with all his followers temporarily poisoned in another place, and his main character surrounded by assassins under the command of the offended player.
"Give me a reason not to kill you, please?"
Bottom line, it tends to end badly for any griefer that shows bad intentions. Sooner or later they pick on someone who considers backstabbing an "I win" game. And griefer players usually suck at it!

Quote
I think he would have; he just winged it on the occupational / career paths, as he'd been around enough to do it.

Great, and now I'm running a game with almost this rules combo!

Quote
Oh, yes, I was a very high-value target! Which is why I hired Vrisa as a body-guard; I wanted to stay alive as long as I could. Later on, my legion assigned six of the toughest troopers we had as my full-time personal body guard, and in battles I normally had two sections (20 to a section) of picked soldiers as a larger guard unit. Due to my command style, which was getting as up-front and personal as possible, they usually wound up in the thick of things as the legion's crack shock troops; after I went through all the other-planar energy available, I'd be heavy infantry and at the point of attack with the reserves. Used to drive the poor Adjutant crazy, sad to say.

I understand the Adjutant. Preventing is always best, and you being that predictably aggressive is bad for his nerves, I'm sure!

Quote
Oddly enough, I know Baron Ald personally; we're actually pretty good friends. Vrisa is his clan cousin, the Vishetru clan of Saa Alliqui - the royal family.

Can you put an end to the war?
If you did, what would your god think?

Quote
Oh, yes, I'd get sent out on diplomatic missions all the time! I was a big lot of intimidation, especially with either Vrisa or my legion (and sometimes both!) in tow. The message being sent was usually "Mess with the Imperium, and Chirine here burns your country down." It made for a lot of fun adventures!!!

Well, I guess it would be more subtle with, say, Livyanu. "Mess with us and this guy stops helping you" is almost as good, though.

Quote
Get "Bethorm". It's S&G, all cleaned up, and plays very well.

I'm a Kickstarter backer of Bethorm...
S&G interests me for the background. Though I'm reasonably certain by now that extrapolation would get me pretty close!

Quote
Yeah, I'd agree - once I take the field, things get very nasty very quickly...

War is all about logistics, though. You can only have Chirine win the day for you if you can get him to the right battle, in time and in reasonably good shape!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;841885
3. Pretty cmmon, you have it down quite well, actually.
4. Yes, to both.
6. Which is why I like the Dark Fable line; it's all the 'civilian' types that you'd find in the palace or clan house. It's Ancient Egyptian, which fits right in with Tekumel. Great figures, and fun to paint!!!

4. Great!
6. Interesting figures, indeed.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;841886
No, they didn't do any of this; it was all right up front, right across the table, and things would get very nasty very quickly during game sessions. One of them would simply tell you that he was out to get you that night, and you'd wind up fighting him and any allies all night. Very nasty, and very little Tekumel got played. Which is why we split...

Splitting has worked for us as well last time we had a griefer!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;841887
It was a great night; we had an immense amount of fun with this. The next day, we were trying to have a talk in private to sort this out, and wound up doing  the 'breakfast in the bastion' scene from "Three/Four Musketeers"; we'd all see the movie version with Michael York, and we all knew the dialog by heart. So, we did the scene - "This wince does not travel well!" - and finally tipped the parapet over onto the people trying to attack us.

It was wonderful - maybe a SNS kind of thing?

If Phil had seen the movie version as well, I'd bet on it being an SNS...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;841888
This. OG became the Glorious General, with his own legion, and a very well-connected nobleman. Pretty good for an guy fresh off the boat, eh? Yes, OG was one of the people brought into the campaign that way.

I got a reputation as a very good staff officer, and after a career as Imperial errand-boy and trouble-shooter (usually literally) I got to be a provincial governor and eventually a condottieri general with my own legion. Not bad, for a kid from the Chakas... :)

How fresh off the boat was OG when he was married off?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;841889
Well, yes, at least with Phil. Most of the 'opposition' was kind of the run-of-the-mill normal stuff; horrible creatures, nasty politicians, evil-doers of all sorts, that kind of thing. It was all kind of all in a days work for us adventurers...

I don't recall any SNS opponents; Phil just didn't play that way. Cool locations, fiendish traps, amazing stuff - that was his style.

Ancient stuff was pretty common in the Underworlds or in the installations of the Ancients. Outside of those two main sources, they were pretty rare. The Undying Wizards usually had a lot of this kind of thing as well, but we tried to avoid them as much as we could; the vast majority of them are nuttier then fruitcakes.

The EPT lists are the common items - there's a list of unique items, too. Great stuff to have, but hard to find and you had to fight the nasties to get them...

I get it that "bring me five Eyes" wasn't a popular fetch quest...
Good!

Quote from: Bren;841902
That is odd. And stupidly confrontational. I've never seen anyone play quite like that. I see why you split off from that group.

Now in my youth I'd have been sorely tempted to gather a few friends together and see what useful stuff I could take off their corpses. For a several weeks in a row. At which point, first levels probably still have a few kraitars and some armor or weapons I can issue to new followers. Maybe by then it would be lesson learned.

I honestly fail to see how this would be any fun for you, yourself. Killing first level characters for the starting equipment sounds like an MMO, and they're the definition of boring to me.
Maybe I'm the weird one, or am I misunderstanding you?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;842029
Yep; it was awful, and not any fun at all. We were much happier after we left, and so was Phil. Over the years, they did try to pull some tricks on us, but we simply reused to play along with them.

I'd agree with you, but that kind of thing was what they wanted - the results were not important, the in-fighting was the goal in and of itself. They never did learn the lesson, either; several of them that I've talked to still play that way, and wonder why they don't get players...

You should have got them arrested.
 
And you can give them an answer. A mirror.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;842037
You're very welcome! Yes, the original approach was all right, but even Phil gave it up after people got some play experience under their belts. I had the same thing happen to me at Gary Con, and OG (and thank again for playing, Glorious General!) commented that one of the big reasons we had such a good time was that all of the players had had thirty years' of game play experience in RPGs, when back in the day we'd had none...

Re the labor, yes. When Vrisa used to go shopping in the marketplace, I'd be there to watch her back; we'd accumulate a retinue of small to medium children, market urchins of all sorts, who would tag along to 'be helpful. We never, every carried anything ourselves - this ad hoc and then later formal retinue would do all of that for us. (For a suitable - and usually small - tip, of course.) I eventually hired some dozen bearers for a trip from Meku to Fasiltum, and they have stayed with me ever since - I even have my own personal Chlen-cart for my luggage.

This is based entirely on Phil's time in India, by the way. Word would get out that 'Barker Sahib' would be coming to the village to learn their language, and Phil told us that the entire village would turn out at either the bus stop of the train station to meet him. The menfolk, supervised by the village headman and elders, would divide up his luggage to carry, while the womenfolk would fuss over him and find out what he liked to eat. The entire procession would then walk to the village, where Phil would get started with his research and everyone would sit around watching the fun. Phil was very worried, initially, that he would not b able to pay them for their services, but he learned very quickly that they refused to be paid - it was an honor for them to be the hosts of the learned scholar, the Barker Sahib. So, Phil would carefully negotiate with the headman and the elders to see if they would accept a gift as a token of his esteem, which they would, and he found that it cost him all of fifty pice, which was a whopping $0.25. He said that this really brought home to him the relative values of moneys in different level of society - as a poor Fulbright Scholar, he was vasty wealthy in comparison to these rural communities.

This carried over into Tekumel, as you might gather. And we got to see his photos of all this too - very wonderful, and I use this in my games...

The lack of iron is way overblown by quite a few fans. The Ancients mined out the bulk of the ores back in their time, but there's plenty left for dietary needs and such. It's simply very hard to locate and work, with the technology we have available. For a very good discussion of this, see Neil Stephensen's "Quicksilver" books and look for the section on making 'Wootz', or look it up on the web. There's iron and steel to be had, as well as more exotic alloys, but you really have to work at it.

(If I may, I'd like to thank Phil - where ever he is - for the tulwar he gave me for my 25th birthday as a thank-you for my Tekumel work; I found out, decades later, that it's made of wootz. I nearly fainted...)

Oh, yes, you do get cartels and alliances like this! Some clans specialize in some things or trades, and effectively have a monopoly; others are more generally based, and trade with the others for their products - when I needed to rebuild the palace in Hekellu, I contracted with a 'general' clan, which then sub-contracted with the specialists for their unique services.

And I'd be expecting that the two cartels / clans you mention would be in competition to feed my troops, too. Both would vie to get my custom, and I'd also expect that they'd meet 'on the side' to make sure that everyone got a decent price for the fish. "People, all I want is to feed my troops. Bill me, and we'll all be happy. Cheat me, and i'll be very unhappy. Are we all clear on this? Good, good..." :)

This reminds me of a trip to SA country as well. Though, being a Bulgarian, I don't need being reminded that other people are richer:D!
A wootz steel blade is an amazing gift, indeed.

And the last speech just made me laugh.

Quote from: Old Geezer;842055
I won't have much time for long posts until the weekend, but...

There is an element of "different strokes for different folks."

A number of the Other Group (tm)(pat pend)(reg u.s. pat off) folks were fanatical Diplomacy players.  We all knew Dippy and played it some; but those guys were hard core, of the "weekend long marathon sessions of game after game" and when "what shall we play" came up, their answer was ALWAYS Diplomacy.

I think that when you concentrate enough on one game, you start to play everything in that style.

My 2 Qirgal.

Quoted for truth!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;842133
Yeah, well, they weren't all that skilled as "Diplomacy" players, the very few times that I played. Subtle, they were not.

They could be really good players out at Phil's when they wanted to, but they liked to screw people over a lot. Certainly 'different strokes for different folks', which is why we spilt off and had a whole lot of fun for over a decade. I do not tolerate this kind of crap in my own group, and we've managed to keep going for over another decade.

And yes, I was the GM who kicked Lady Anka'a hi Qoyelmu - one of Phil's original players from 1974 - out of my group for this kind of malarky. I practice what I preach, and all that.

I wonder, what is it with griefer players? I've never seen one that would make a good player at any game that requires subtlety, either!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;842141
Well, it depends on how the clans/cartels involved have been dealing with each other in the past. Some clans are at deadly feud with each other, and have been for centuries, and there's no holds barred; all of the nastier stuff takes place out at sea or in the Underworlds, so as not to get the Imperium involved. This kind of feuding is forbidden out in the open, per the Great Concordat - see also the Ancient Egyptian concept of Ma'at - so open conflict is not allowed.

The Imperium will get involved only if there is open fighting going on, and then the troops will simply crush both sides. Anybody found guilty of revolt, rebellion, or tax evasion gets the high ride, and the surviving clan members are told to keep it down to a dull roar or they all get the same treatment.

Supply contracts are let by the individual legion commander, not by the Imperium's Palace of Ever-Glorious War; legion are paid for by individual patrons, temples, and clans. The only legions paid for directly by the Imperium are the OAL and the Legion of Ketl, who run the Imperial prisons. Everything else is paid for individually, which is why there is so much skulduggery and chaos in the logistics of the armies of the Five Empires. You also have to move the supplies, which is the job of the 'transport' clans, which allow for more peculation and skulduggery. And all of which provides more options for adventures...

And yes, there is also lots of collusion, too. When the money is flowing, like it was for the war, then all the contractors / clans tend to collude to make sure that the goods flow and the cash keeps coming - the "you help me today, and I'll help you tomorrow" sort of thing.

Is this helping? Am I explaining things decently for you? (I worry...)

EDIT: I should also add that this is why really good staff officers are treasured by their generals - ask OG / the Glorious General; he and his troops never went hungry when I was his staffer... :)

Now I think I know the most dangerous skill of Chirine...
Logistics.
BTW, OG had mentioned elsewhere that a player at Gygax's table had perfect memory and even could correct the Referee on details of the dungeon. Does that happen to be you:D?

Quote from: Old Geezer;842149
A quick note ere I dash off to work...


Indeed so; Chirine was a definite asset to my Legion.

And speaking of skullduggery in supply trains, mopery, dopery, muggery, buggery, and loitering with intent to loaf....

there was the night we were helping General Kutume open some crates labeled

"Bolts, Crossbow, for harming of enemy, 1000 per case, 10 cases"

and a Mru'ur sits up and says "Hello, sailor!"

The question is, did you shoot the thing at the enemy? It's an undead, right?


Quote from: Bren;842185
Man I hate it when dipshits and psychopaths give backstabbing a bad name. It just ruins the fun for the rest of us. ;)

Indeed;)!

Quote from: Greentongue;842195

Does who they know / who knows them matter the most when things go badly?
=

Doesn't it work like this in all possible settings?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 16, 2015, 07:35:51 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;842301
I honestly fail to see how this would be any fun for you, yourself. Killing first level characters for the starting equipment sounds like an MMO, and they're the definition of boring to me.
Maybe I'm the weird one, or am I misunderstanding you?
Slight  misunderstanding. Let me break my though process down. That should clear things up.



Now the above is what I would have done as a teenage gamer. Nowadays I'm a lot older and a bit wiser. I don't game with assholes and as the usual GM, I'd just kick their real life ass to the curb so they and their characters would cease to be a problem to my table.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 16, 2015, 07:55:31 PM
Quote from: Bren;842304
Slight  misunderstanding. Let me break my though process down. That should clear things up.

  • Since they had been playing with Phil for a while, I assumed those guys had characters who were above first level.
  • So first you kill those characters and loot their stuff. They are above first level so they may have some good stuff.
  • Then you go after any back up characters they have who are above level one and kill them and take their stuff.
  • Now they are left with first level characters. So you kill them and take their stuff. It's not great stuff, but it can outfit some NPC followers or upgrade some hirelings.
  • Then you kill the next couple of first level characters they roll up and take their paltry stuff.
  • Now gaming with you, is not much fun for them.
  • So by now the point should be made that those guys should stop trying to screw with you and your friends since it won't end well for them.
  • They might be able to extrapolate from that to realize that screwing with people gets you screwed and being screwed isn't much fun, and change their play style.
  • Sadly, from other comments by OG and Chirine, those guys sound dumb as a box of hammers so they never grasped that.


Now the above is what I would have done as a teenage gamer. Nowadays I'm a lot older and a bit wiser. I don't game with assholes and as the usual GM, I'd just kick their real life ass to the curb so they and their characters would cease to be a problem to my table.

I see, sorry for the misunderstanding! I didn't get you mean specifically griefer players, since you mentioned inviting friends!

And we still proceed this way. Everyone gets one chance before being booted. Well, every griefer does, OOC issues are acted upon more harshly!
Still, you can usually make them overcome it if you apply enough peer pressure!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 16, 2015, 08:18:47 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;842301
Why should it be either/or?

Because the question was based on the printed EPT rules having an example of a temple with a demon. I was asking if the focus was on the temple or the demon. The answer could easily have been "both" ... but wasn't.
Which was the point of asking.

Quote from: AsenRG;842301
Doesn't it work like this in all possible settings?

Before I assume so in this case, I'll ask to have it confirmed (or not).
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 16, 2015, 09:18:29 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;842316
I see, sorry for the misunderstanding! I didn't get you mean specifically griefer players, since you mentioned inviting friends!
I meant invite friends so our characters could gang up on the Dipshits or griefers as you call them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 17, 2015, 12:16:53 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;841874
So, for you, a SNS is a special location that provides an unexpected event(s) and not a special opponent/organization?


I don't have the text of EPT in front of me, but actually, we never thought about things in such taxonomic ways during gaming.  We were exploring, the whole idea was to find interesting things.  Same as Greyhawk and Blackmoor.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 17, 2015, 12:21:32 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;842195

One idea I had was smuggling a chest of sex toys into the chambers of "A Good Clan Girl" but wasn't sure if this would effect their marriage proposal or be ignored.
What does being "A Good Clan Girl" actually mean in game terms? *


Phil would say "Stop thinking like a 20th Century Midwesterner."  (this was before 2000.)

The Tsolyani do not have a societal prohibition on sex like America does.  (In fact, a lot of cultures in real life think the US is pretty messed up sexually.)  A chest of sex toys in his bride to be's bedchamber would not cause a typical Tsolyani man to blink an eye.

Being 'A Good Clan Girl' means doing what your mother and "aunties" tell you to, doing nothing in public that shows "ignoble action," and marrying who  you're told to for the advantage of your clan.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 17, 2015, 01:55:51 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842388
(In fact, a lot of cultures in real life think the US is pretty messed up sexually.)
And as you know, there's a fair number of people inside the US who think our culture is pretty messed up sexually. Because, of course, it is.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 17, 2015, 04:45:40 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;842323
Because the question was based on the printed EPT rules having an example of a temple with a demon. I was asking if the focus was on the temple or the demon. The answer could easily have been "both" ... but wasn't.
Which was the point of asking.



Before I assume so in this case, I'll ask to have it confirmed (or not).
=

Well, my point was simply that no matter the rules as intended, you gain more by variety.

Hint: it works like that even today.

Quote from: Bren;842344
I meant invite friends so our characters could gang up on the Dipshits or griefers as you call them.

Griefers  Hunting Party:;?

Quote from: Old Geezer;842388
Phil would say "Stop thinking like a 20th Century Midwesterner."  (this was before 2000.)

The Tsolyani do not have a societal prohibition on sex like America does.  (In fact, a lot of cultures in real life think the US is pretty messed up sexually.)  A chest of sex toys in his bride to be's bedchamber would not cause a typical Tsolyani man to blink an eye.

Being 'A Good Clan Girl' means doing what your mother and "aunties" tell you to, doing nothing in public that shows "ignoble action," and marrying who  you're told to for the advantage of your clan.

I suspect "in public" is a keyword here:D!

Quote from: Bren;842397
And as you know, there's a fair number of people inside the US who think our culture is pretty messed up sexually. Because, of course, it is.

Even I've talked to such people.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 17, 2015, 08:38:15 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842388
Phil would say "Stop thinking like a 20th Century Midwesterner."  (this was before 2000.)

The Tsolyani do not have a societal prohibition on sex like America does.  (In fact, a lot of cultures in real life think the US is pretty messed up sexually.)  A chest of sex toys in his bride to be's bedchamber would not cause a typical Tsolyani man to blink an eye.


I can't control the expectations of my potential players.
I'm going for, "Those are Bad People! We must Stop Them!" and playing to what raises that reaction in the players.
How far it is from what the characters would think is the concern.

That naturally raises the question, what would would cause that reaction in the characters? (and still be something the players would recognize?)
While the Pale Bone may motivate people that know the setting, those that are just starting would have no idea.  

On the other hand, what engages new players from your experience?
(Besides SHINY!!)
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 17, 2015, 10:00:37 AM
Quote from: Bren;842304

  • Sadly, from other comments by OG and Chirine, those guys sound dumb as a box of hammers so they never grasped that.


More than that, we didn't WANT to do PVP.  Even if we'd won, that would be playing a game we didn't want to play.

We had other ways to use our time.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 17, 2015, 10:11:37 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;842195
YES
It is good to know that "I'm doing it right" for many things and it provides a lot of ideas for things I haven't had the pleasure of getting to yet.

One idea I had was smuggling a chest of sex toys into the chambers of "A Good Clan Girl" but wasn't sure if this would effect their marriage proposal or be ignored.
What does being "A Good Clan Girl" actually mean in game terms? *

Another idea was the recovery of a favored heir that had been kidnapped (and transported unknowingly) to effect inter-clan negotiations. **

Another was the recovery of a body part being retained in a box to prevent its owner's regenerating. (reproductive organ) *

Maybe a little too * "sex" and ** "pedophile" orientated
but "Bad People" for motivation to oppose, without being just "loot".
I like things to be "Black & White" in my Sword & Planet style games without being graphic.

From what you say, these may be a little too "above ground"?

How likely is it that the "country bumpkin/foreign scum" would be scapegoated?
Would the Character be more valuable as an "unmarked piece in the game" or just considered disposable? (pure GM call?)
Does who they know / who knows them matter the most when things go badly?
=


Right - in order:

The scandal is not about the clan girl; it's her husband who's going to look like an idiot. A Good Clan Girl is one who supports her clan and thus her extended family; she has limited legal rights, but her clan has the duty and to see that she's supported and protected. It's a very secure and relatively comfortable life. The 'Aridani' woman, on the other hand, has all the rights of a man - including having to pay income taxes, which The Good Clan Girl does not. It's a much less secure life, but it does appeal to the adventurer type.

The husband is the one who's in trouble; he's responsible for keeping his wife happy and satisfied. If he's not, the clan matriarchs are going to send him down to the Temple of Avanthe and/or Dlamelish for a refresher course. It's really hard to get a good sex scandal going in the Five Empires - the attitudes to the subject are so much different from our own. Word will get out about this, and the clan ladies all over town will gossip about it for at least a week. Hubby will get some pointed suggestions from his clan-brothers to deal with this and keep the wife happy, but that will be about it.

The kidnapping is Very Serious Stuff, as it's considered a violation of the Great Concordat if it happened outside the Underworld. The clan affected will call in all sorts of favors from everyone they know to find the kid, up to and including using the assassins' clans. They will also try very hard to keep the Imperium from getting involved, as that always means trouble for everyone - once the OAL gets in the door, they tend to want to ask a lot of questions about anything and everything.

Interesting about the body part. Most of the time, people will just laugh and tell the poor man he should have been more careful. I can see how it would turn into an adventure, though, as the guy's clan will want to Have Words with whoever did this...

I agree with you - this is a little too much for 'above ground' life.

Generally, the country bumpkin/immigrant will not get scape-goated - they are not expected to know the fine points of life and such, so unless they've been really stupid or crass they'll get a stern warning about bringing the clan into disrepute by hanging around with naughty people. Otherwise, yes, they tend to be more valuable alive, and yes, who they know is very important!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 17, 2015, 10:19:52 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;842301

I understand the Adjutant. Preventing is always best, and you being that predictably aggressive is bad for his nerves, I'm sure!


Can you put an end to the war?
If you did, what would your god think?

Well, I guess it would be more subtle with, say, Livyanu. "Mess with us and this guy stops helping you" is almost as good, though.

War is all about logistics, though. You can only have Chirine win the day for you if you can get him to the right battle, in time and in reasonably good shape!

If Phil had seen the movie version as well, I'd bet on it being an SNS...


How fresh off the boat was OG when he was married off?


I get it that "bring me five Eyes" wasn't a popular fetch quest...
Good!

Now I think I know the most dangerous skill of Chirine...
Logistics.

BTW, OG had mentioned elsewhere that a player at Gygax's table had perfect memory and even could correct the Referee on details of the dungeon. Does that happen to be you:D?

The question is, did you shoot the thing at the enemy? It's an undead, right?


My poor Adjutant is always having to tell me that I need to be a commander, and not a trooper. it takes all the fun out of battles, I can tell you...

No; I'm not high enough in the Imperial councils for that.

Agreed; I am a logistics specialist, I think!

No, Phil had not seen the movie, but he had read the book... :)

You'll have to ask him, sorry...

Agreed, to both! :)

No, it wasn't me like that at Gary's table: it was me at Phil's table, though...

I think they just killed the thing...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 17, 2015, 10:21:35 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;842323
Because the question was based on the printed EPT rules having an example of a temple with a demon. I was asking if the focus was on the temple or the demon. The answer could easily have been "both" ... but wasn't.
Which was the point of asking.



Before I assume so in this case, I'll ask to have it confirmed (or not).
=


Oh, right, gotcha. In this case, both the temple and the demon are SNS material...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 17, 2015, 10:23:39 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842386
I don't have the text of EPT in front of me, but actually, we never thought about things in such taxonomic ways during gaming.  We were exploring, the whole idea was to find interesting things.  Same as Greyhawk and Blackmoor.


Well, yeah, what the Glorious General said. Mostly, we were just too busy trying to stay alive as Phil threw stuff at us constantly. We dodged and ducked a lot!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 17, 2015, 10:25:33 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842388
Phil would say "Stop thinking like a 20th Century Midwesterner."  (this was before 2000.)

The Tsolyani do not have a societal prohibition on sex like America does.  (In fact, a lot of cultures in real life think the US is pretty messed up sexually.)  A chest of sex toys in his bride to be's bedchamber would not cause a typical Tsolyani man to blink an eye.

Being 'A Good Clan Girl' means doing what your mother and "aunties" tell you to, doing nothing in public that shows "ignoble action," and marrying who  you're told to for the advantage of your clan.

Agreed!!! Phil was always on us about not thinking inside the box, and about learning new cultures. Tsolyanu is a lot like Pharonic Egypt, really...

Have a look at the 'Lord Meren' series of mystery novels - they will provide a lot of good ideas for Tekumel.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 17, 2015, 10:27:19 AM
Quote from: Bren;842397
And as you know, there's a fair number of people inside the US who think our culture is pretty messed up sexually. Because, of course, it is.


Yes!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 17, 2015, 10:32:52 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;842435
I can't control the expectations of my potential players.
I'm going for, "Those are Bad People! We must Stop Them!" and playing to what raises that reaction in the players.
How far it is from what the characters would think is the concern.

That naturally raises the question, what would would cause that reaction in the characters? (and still be something the players would recognize?)
While the Pale Bone may motivate people that know the setting, those that are just starting would have no idea.  

On the other hand, what engages new players from your experience?
(Besides SHINY!!)
=


Well, a threat to the people in the party or to the clan - or to their temple or legion - is always good; Imperial politics is always good for trouble. The international situation is always messy, and you can have Harchar swoop in for laughs as he makes off with the silverware.

We always used to get a rash when the Temple of Sarku showed up; they were kind of the usual bad guys for us.

I always am able to engage new players with the sheer difference of this world from what they are used to with the usual RPGs. The different world-setting helps a lot - and I have to admit, all the stuff I have in the game room - LOTS of SHINEY! - always gets them hooked. Then we get into the adventure, and they stay for literally years.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 17, 2015, 10:33:34 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;842449

I agree with you - this is a little too much for 'above ground' life.


Could you give some examples of things that new players/characters can get involved in that are 'above ground' life?

Maybe some examples of 'below ground' to compare/contrast with?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 17, 2015, 10:33:50 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842447
More than that, we didn't WANT to do PVP.  Even if we'd won, that would be playing a game we didn't want to play.

We had other ways to use our time.


Yep, like explore the damn planet. And stay alive while doing it, too. That was a full-time job in and of itself.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 17, 2015, 10:34:55 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;842417
Griefers  Hunting Party:;?
Bingo!

Quote from: Old Geezer;842447
More than that, we didn't WANT to do PVP.  Even if we'd won, that would be playing a game we didn't want to play.

We had other ways to use our time.
Perfectly fair point. People shouldn't play games they don't enjoy. The game you and Chirine have described sounds far more entertaining and more like something I would have enjoyed then and still would enjoy today.

And as I said, that's what my teenage self would have wanted to do. It's not something I recall actually doing or even needing to do. One reason I didn't need to do that was because I was known for being good at tactics and for being sufficiently confrontational that the people in our extended group who had griefer tendencies chose to mess with someone else and to do it when I wasn't around. Of course it also helped that none of our gaming groups included assholes the size of astronomical bodies.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;842456
Tsolyanu is a lot like Pharonic Egypt, really...
Now that I did not know and had not guessed. Tsolyanu always seemed more China/Indochina crossed with Mesoamerica to me. That's very interesting. :) Also it makes your choice of Egyptian miniatures make more sense.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 17, 2015, 10:49:35 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;842460
Could you give some examples of things that new players/characters can get involved in that are 'above ground' life?

Maybe some examples of 'below ground' to compare/contrast with?
=


Oh, sure; let me see...

Join a legion, see the world, and kill the bad guys before they kill you.
Escort a caravan from here to there, and try not to get killed or robbed.
Throw a party at your clan house, and try not to start a riot.
Throw a party at your Temple, and try not to start a riot.
Go off on a river voyage to get from here to there, maybe with some stuff  that needs moving.
Ditto, on a sea voyage.
Check up on why the family farm hasn't sent anything to market for a while.
Do odd jobs for Cousin Woofel, and try to stay alive.
Escort your clan-sister to her new home and husband, and try not to start a riot.
Visit the zoo in Bey Su, and marvel at the two short guys with the hairy feet who stick the funny burning weeds up their noses. (Two hobbits who got lost.)
Go shopping in the market place; try not get robbed, and try not to start a riot.
Try and find out who blew up your clan-uncle with the exploding receipts. (Most people use daggers or poison, but nooo, somebody had to get clever.)
Become an Imperial official, and try to stay alive long enough to collect your pension.
Save the Princess. (Although, in my career, she usually wound up saving me.)
Buy a boat. Go fishing. Don't get et.
Try to figure out what kind of Eye Cousin Woofel was looking at when it happened...
Get married. Try not to start a riot.

And then:

Go looking for fun in the steam tunnels - er, Underworld
Look for goodies forgotten in the basement of the clan-house
Go have a look at those ruins that they just found on the family farm
Bury poor Cousin Woofel in the family tomb in the Underworld
Explore that cool shiny tower that appeared one night on the family farm.
Take a trip on the tubeway car - Cousin Woofel said it was perfectly safe!

Does this help? I have lots more, if you like... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 17, 2015, 10:55:53 AM
Quote from: Bren;842462
Bingo!

Perfectly fair point. People shouldn't play games they don't enjoy. The game you and Chirine have described sounds far more entertaining and more like something I would have enjoyed then and still would enjoy today.

And as I said, that's what my teenage self would have wanted to do. It's not something I recall actually doing or even needing to do. One reason I didn't need to do that was because I was known for being good at tactics and for being sufficiently confrontational that the people in our extended group who had griefer tendencies chose to mess with someone else and to do it when I wasn't around. Of course it also helped that none of our gaming groups included assholes the size of astronomical bodies.

Now that I did not know and had not guessed. Tsolyanu always seemed more China/Indochina crossed with Mesoamerica to me. That's very interesting. :) Also it makes your choice of Egyptian miniatures make more sense.


Hah! Agreed!

The Engsvanyali Empire of the Priest-kings was very much in the mold of Ancient Egypt, and a lot of those attitudes carried over into modern times. Phil said that 'modern ' Tekumel was very much South Asia, so you are right up there with him on this. The Mesoamerican influence dates back to the earlier Bednjallan Imperium, and again some of this still holds true today.

My miniatures 'visual shorthand' is to use Mesoamerican stuff for Bednjallan, Ancient Egyptian for the Engvanyali, and South Asian for modern times. Both the Dark Fable and Crocodile Games figures fit in with Phil's Tekumel 'design sense' so I use a lot of them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 17, 2015, 11:27:31 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;842467
The Engsvanyali Empire of the Priest-kings was very much in the mold of Ancient Egypt, and a lot of those attitudes carried over into modern times. Phil said that 'modern ' Tekumel was very much South Asia, so you are right up there with him on this. The Mesoamerican influence dates back to the earlier Bednjallan Imperium, and again some of this still holds true today.

My miniatures 'visual shorthand' is to use Mesoamerican stuff for Bednjallan, Ancient Egyptian for the Engvanyali, and South Asian for modern times. Both the Dark Fable and Crocodile Games figures fit in with Phil's Tekumel 'design sense' so I use a lot of them.
Ah, layers of prehistory with earth analogs for the various cultures. I like that.

So OG's character romanced and married a good clan girl. Did they have good clan kids or the sort of hooligans and hellions one might more reasonably expect as sharing in the OG genes?

So did Chirine also get married? Same question if so.

How much total game time elapsed for your characters?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 17, 2015, 01:54:57 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;842465

Does this help? I have lots more, if you like... :)


Yes, helps.
There is no such thing as too many.

So many other ideas are for the "Movers and Shakers" of society which a beginning character rarely is.
(When they are, they don't know the setting well enough or have "anthropology class" expectations.)

I like the, "Those nightmares you were having ... well this morning you awoke in that world.
The first thing you notice is that it is HOT and you are 'Not in Kansas Anymore'.
Strangely, it feels normal and maybe it was that other world you were dreaming about, not this one that is alien.
Something bumping your boat must have awaken you." ... type of game starts.

While "kill them and loot their bodies" is a traditional motivation, it is not something unique to Tekumel.
Nice to mix in sometimes but having setting specific things to do is a big plus.  
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 17, 2015, 02:51:14 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;842435
I can't control the expectations of my potential players.
I'm going for, "Those are Bad People! We must Stop Them!" and playing to what raises that reaction in the players.
How far it is from what the characters would think is the concern.

That naturally raises the question, what would would cause that reaction in the characters? (and still be something the players would recognize?)
While the Pale Bone may motivate people that know the setting, those that are just starting would have no idea.  

On the other hand, what engages new players from your experience?
(Besides SHINY!!)
=

Serious question, wouldn't you provide such information on the spot?
"You see someone using an unorthodox weapon quite willfully."
"Good for him."
"This means he's at least trained by an assassin clan."
"Oh. Didn't we get a noble angry last session?"
Typical conversation at our table. I'm always curious how other people play, though!
(Hey, it helps my games later!)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;842449

The kidnapping is Very Serious Stuff, as it's considered a violation of the Great Concordat if it happened outside the Underworld. The clan affected will call in all sorts of favors from everyone they know to find the kid, up to and including using the assassins' clans. They will also try very hard to keep the Imperium from getting involved, as that always means trouble for everyone - once the OAL gets in the door, they tend to want to ask a lot of questions about anything and everything.

Fun fact, that's exactly the attitude towards law enforcement in totalitarian states with corrupt law enforcement.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;842451
My poor Adjutant is always having to tell me that I need to be a commander, and not a trooper. it takes all the fun out of battles, I can tell you...

No; I'm not high enough in the Imperial councils for that.

You'll have to ask him, sorry...

No, it wasn't me like that at Gary's table: it was me at Phil's table, though...

I think they just killed the thing...

Battles weren't supposed to be fun, last I checked.

If you were able to do it somehow, what would Karajan and Vrimulha think?

True. OG, how long was it IC before you got married off? How did you prove yourself as a valuable asset?

There was more than one player with photographic memory?

What a waste of ammo!
I'm imagining a besieged city and raining undead thrown by the besieging forces, of course!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;842456
Agreed!!! Phil was always on us about not thinking inside the box, and about learning new cultures. Tsolyanu is a lot like Pharonic Egypt, really...

Have a look at the 'Lord Meren' series of mystery novels - they will provide a lot of good ideas for Tekumel.

Lord Meren is fun, indeed. I'd join the recommendation!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;842459

We always used to get a rash when the Temple of Sarku showed up; they were kind of the usual bad guys for us.

I always am able to engage new players with the sheer difference of this world from what they are used to with the usual RPGs. The different world-setting helps a lot - and I have to admit, all the stuff I have in the game room - LOTS of SHINEY! - always gets them hooked. Then we get into the adventure, and they stay for literally years.

Well, Sarku has lots of worms and other parasites. Maybe one of them causes a rash telepathically.

And I've also found that exotic settings help, contrary to a popular opinion.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;842465
Oh, sure; let me see...

Join a legion, see the world, and kill the bad guys before they kill you.
Escort a caravan from here to there, and try not to get killed or robbed.
Throw a party at your clan house, and try not to start a riot.
Throw a party at your Temple, and try not to start a riot.
Go off on a river voyage to get from here to there, maybe with some stuff  that needs moving.
Ditto, on a sea voyage.
Check up on why the family farm hasn't sent anything to market for a while.
Do odd jobs for Cousin Woofel, and try to stay alive.
Escort your clan-sister to her new home and husband, and try not to start a riot.
Visit the zoo in Bey Su, and marvel at the two short guys with the hairy feet who stick the funny burning weeds up their noses. (Two hobbits who got lost.)
Go shopping in the market place; try not get robbed, and try not to start a riot.
Try and find out who blew up your clan-uncle with the exploding receipts. (Most people use daggers or poison, but nooo, somebody had to get clever.)
Become an Imperial official, and try to stay alive long enough to collect your pension.
Save the Princess. (Although, in my career, she usually wound up saving me.)
Buy a boat. Go fishing. Don't get et.
Try to figure out what kind of Eye Cousin Woofel was looking at when it happened...
Get married. Try not to start a riot.

And then:

Go looking for fun in the steam tunnels - er, Underworld
Look for goodies forgotten in the basement of the clan-house
Go have a look at those ruins that they just found on the family farm
Bury poor Cousin Woofel in the family tomb in the Underworld
Explore that cool shiny tower that appeared one night on the family farm.
Take a trip on the tubeway car - Cousin Woofel said it was perfectly safe!

Does this help? I have lots more, if you like... :)

It sure helps me! I hadn't thought of at least a few of these, so, more is better!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;842467
Hah! Agreed!

The Engsvanyali Empire of the Priest-kings was very much in the mold of Ancient Egypt, and a lot of those attitudes carried over into modern times. Phil said that 'modern ' Tekumel was very much South Asia, so you are right up there with him on this. The Mesoamerican influence dates back to the earlier Bednjallan Imperium, and again some of this still holds true today.

My miniatures 'visual shorthand' is to use Mesoamerican stuff for Bednjallan, Ancient Egyptian for the Engvanyali, and South Asian for modern times. Both the Dark Fable and Crocodile Games figures fit in with Phil's Tekumel 'design sense' so I use a lot of them.


So Mesoamerica follows from Egypt? Sweet! I've always liked the idea that they are related, which Thor Heyerdahl tried to prove with Ra and Ra II.
What can I say, I like the experimental approach to history.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 17, 2015, 07:33:52 PM
Quote from: Bren;842473
Ah, layers of prehistory with earth analogs for the various cultures. I like that.

So OG's character romanced and married a good clan girl. Did they have good clan kids or the sort of hooligans and hellions one might more reasonably expect as sharing in the OG genes?

So did Chirine also get married? Same question if so.

How much total game time elapsed for your characters?


Well, it does make things easier when people see stuff - this is information that they would know in character, so  make sure to give it to them. From a cultural standpoint, it also gives players a starting point from which to envision things.

You know, I don't know; I'd have to check the files. Of he could simply tell us... :)

Yes, Chirine is a happily married family man. Lady Si N'te (the Senior Wife and Lady of the House) has borne two wonderful children, who have inherited his ability with sorcery and her gifts as one of the telepaths of the Temple of Mretten. The domestic establishment also includes the brood of adopted adult children, who also serve as officers in the legion - it's my legion, and I'll hire who I want to.

May I let Her Ladyship add something?

"In my husband's culture, the mark of a great lord is his being able to support a large family; as his Senior Wife, it is my position to make sure that this happens in a proper manner. I am blessed by the Goddess Mretten with some very clever and intelligent friends, all of who are also friends of my husband; since my husband is a great lord of some repute and renown, I have therefore brought them into the family so that my husband is properly seen to and enjoys a high degree of status. It also helps with the twins; they are a bit of a handful, at times. Everyone benefits; I am surrounded by my closest friends, my husband has a proper household, and the children are properly looked after. It is all very practical, I am told, and I find that it makes my work running my household much easier as I enjoy such skiiled assistance."

Her Ladyship runs the household; His Lordship (me!) runs the army.

Let's see; I started in 2354 AS, in 1976, and I'm still playing. Our time with Phil in his games went until 2368 AS - I'd have to double check - in about 1988. Phil gamed in 'real time' if it took a year in the game to get from A to B, it took a year in the real world to do it; we spent a lot of time on the road or at sea, having 'encounters' and adventures along the way.

It's now 2394 AS - Phil added 379 to the current Terran date to get the date on Tekumel - and Chirine is, in theory, enjoying his 'retirement' as he heads into his early sixties. The adopted kids, Mridan, Takhmin, Takhmet, Djel, and all the rest, have taken over the day to day running of things and often go off on adventures of their own; they, in turn, are raising a new generation of grandchildren to take over long after I'm gone.

If I may be permitted an observation: Phil may be gone, but the game continues...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 17, 2015, 07:34:58 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;842499
Yes, helps.
There is no such thing as too many.

So many other ideas are for the "Movers and Shakers" of society which a beginning character rarely is.
(When they are, they don't know the setting well enough or have "anthropology class" expectations.)

I like the, "Those nightmares you were having ... well this morning you awoke in that world.
The first thing you notice is that it is HOT and you are 'Not in Kansas Anymore'.
Strangely, it feels normal and maybe it was that other world you were dreaming about, not this one that is alien.
Something bumping your boat must have awaken you." ... type of game starts.

While "kill them and loot their bodies" is a traditional motivation, it is not something unique to Tekumel.
Nice to mix in sometimes but having setting specific things to do is a big plus.  
=


Happy to be of help! That's what I love about Phil's world - so much to do, and so much to see and explore!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 17, 2015, 07:44:25 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;842501
Serious question, wouldn't you provide such information on the spot?
"You see someone using an unorthodox weapon quite willfully."
"Good for him."
"This means he's at least trained by an assassin clan."
"Oh. Didn't we get a noble angry last session?"
Typical conversation at our table. I'm always curious how other people play, though!
(Hey, it helps my games later!)


Fun fact, that's exactly the attitude towards law enforcement in totalitarian states with corrupt law enforcement.


Battles weren't supposed to be fun, last I checked.

If you were able to do it somehow, what would Karajan and Vrimulha think?

True. OG, how long was it IC before you got married off? How did you prove yourself as a valuable asset?

There was more than one player with photographic memory?

And I've also found that exotic settings help, contrary to a popular opinion.

So Mesoamerica follows from Egypt? Sweet! I've always liked the idea that they are related, which Thor Heyerdahl tried to prove with Ra and Ra II.
What can I say, I like the experimental approach to history.


Well, I always mention it - this is something that the players would know.

The Five Empires are totalitarian, and they make no bones about it. Law enforcement is indeed corrupt, which is why most people do it themselves.

As for ending the war, Lord Karakan and Lord Vimuhla would not care; they regard us humans as playthings, and there'll be another war along shortly. In my particular case, Lord Vimuhla is patient; I kill people for a living, after all. As I once remarked to a High Preist I know, "I am a ruthless killer so that I can be a devoted father and family man; the children are alive today because I make sure that any threats to them get dead in very short order."

I don't know who OG was talking about in Gary's campaign - you'll have to find out from him. Keep in mind that we played over a span of four or more decades - we played with a lot of people!

Agreed! :)

And keep in mind that Phil taught himself to read all three forms of Ancient Egyptian scripts when he was eight years old - he had a huge library on Ancient Egypt!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 17, 2015, 07:59:17 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;842435
I can't control the expectations of my potential players.  

That is, in point of fact, incorrect.  Your first obligation as referee is to clearly communicate your expectations to your players.  Your second obligation is to help your players to formulate appropriate expectations.  Part of the rationale for an exotic locale is that it is DIFFERENT.

Tsolyanu is a shame culture, not a guilt culture.  That alone is a major difference.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 18, 2015, 08:23:17 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;842536
May I let Her Ladyship add something?

Phil gamed in 'real time' if it took a year in the game to get from A to B, it took a year in the real world to do it; we spent a lot of time on the road or at sea, having 'encounters' and adventures along the way.
Thanks for the extra info.

The gaming in real time is unusual. I've never done that. Time always moves faster or slower than real life. Unless there is a lot of travel, it moves slower.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 18, 2015, 11:01:52 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842543
That is, in point of fact, incorrect.  Your first obligation as referee is to clearly communicate your expectations to your players.  Your second obligation is to help your players to formulate appropriate expectations.  Part of the rationale for an exotic locale is that it is DIFFERENT.

I had made it clear that the characters were starting at the bottom as barbarians 'just off the boat" and the player quit when they had an encounter that reminded them that as a beginning character they had no influence. (Instead of attempting to gain the influence through play.)

Clearly communicating expectations does not means that the player "gets it".
Only actual play reinforces the expectations and by then the game has started.

Quote from: Old Geezer;842543
Tsolyanu is a shame culture, not a guilt culture.  That alone is a major difference.

Excellent point!
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 18, 2015, 01:23:40 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;842539
The Five Empires are totalitarian, and they make no bones about it. Law enforcement is indeed corrupt, which is why most people do it themselves.

As for ending the war, Lord Karakan and Lord Vimuhla would not care; they regard us humans as playthings, and there'll be another war along shortly. In my particular case, Lord Vimuhla is patient; I kill people for a living, after all. As I once remarked to a High Preist I know, "I am a ruthless killer so that I can be a devoted father and family man; the children are alive today because I make sure that any threats to them get dead in very short order."

And keep in mind that Phil taught himself to read all three forms of Ancient Egyptian scripts when he was eight years old - he had a huge library on Ancient Egypt!
Yeah, that's exactly the attitude-I'm just glad it's reflected in T`ekumel. Way too often I see the big, bad, totalitarian country where everyone is prone to call the local guard.
Yeah, right.

That's exactly the attitude of many PCs. I've been told it's somehow unrealistic, but admit I've still got no idea why.

Well. That's impressive, and I'm putting it mildly here!


Quote from: Old Geezer;842543
That is, in point of fact, incorrect.  Your first obligation as referee is to clearly communicate your expectations to your players.  Your second obligation is to help your players to formulate appropriate expectations.  Part of the rationale for an exotic locale is that it is DIFFERENT.
Agreed.

Quote from: Greentongue;842651
Clearly communicating expectations does not means that the player "gets it".
Only actual play reinforces the expectations and by then the game has started.

Excellent point!
=
Yes, misunderstandings still happen. But as long as you were clear, it's no longer your fault. Or at least you're not the only one at fault!

Quote from: Bren;842641
Thanks for the extra info.

The gaming in real time is unusual. I've never done that. Time always moves faster or slower than real life. Unless there is a lot of travel, it moves slower.
I agree, that surprised me as well. Pendragon would be out of question, for instance.
Well, that's the first thing I hear about MAR Barker's style that I'm not sure I like. What's the rationale behind it?

And I found the tale of Old Geezer. The eidetic memory guy is Rob Kuntz!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 18, 2015, 03:20:08 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;842456

Have a look at the 'Lord Meren' series of mystery novels - they will provide a lot of good ideas for Tekumel.


* quick Google search *

Dang, I'd never heard of those!  Chirine, old boot, it appears I owe you yet another one...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 18, 2015, 03:25:16 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;842677

And I found the tale of Old Geezer. The eidetic memory guy is Rob Kuntz!


Yep.  Though it's too bad that Chirine wasn't around in my heavy days of underworld crawling... a man with eidetic memory is SO damn handy to have around when you're wondering "Did we get teleported or does my map suck?"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 18, 2015, 03:33:57 PM
How much are "chops", carved seals, or engraved stamps used?

Assuming they are ...
Are there specific ones for clans, lineages, families, individuals and official usage?
Are they important and treasured for their representative power?  
Can they be duplicated or are there ones that cannot be?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 18, 2015, 03:41:20 PM
As far as Korunme's career...

I started off as a barbarian just off the boat.  I was one of the very first group of EPT players using the green covered ditto rules.

We were in the foreigner's quarter of Jakalla at first.  Very soon, Al Muscielewicz, my first wife, and I formed a "mutual defense pact" so that one of us would stand watch while the others slept.  The cheap flop spots in the foreigner's quarters are not safe.  Rather like many modern homeless shelters, sad to say.

Very soon, Moose established himself as heavy muscle for disputes among the fishermen on the river, I was fighting in the arena for pay, and Anka'a was providing halftime entertainment as a nude bareknuckle boxer.  Thus we got enough money to rent a room with a door that actually had a bar.

About the time that I had advanced enough in level that I could leave the foreigners' quarter safely, I joined the army because I figured it would give me a chance to see the world, experience exotic cultures, meet fascinating people, and kill them.  I figured it would be a chance to get the "lay of the land" while at the same time being a soldier would give me a place in Tsolyani society.  Other players as mentioned above were trying to ingratiate themselves into high society, play political games, etc.  I just wanted a place where I knew what was expected of me.  I figured if the Tsolyani army was like every other army in the world throughout time, there would be cheerfully smiling sergeants who would be only too happy to tell me exactly what was expected of me.

It also meant I didn't have to worry about the perils of being a foreigner in Tsolyani society... a soldier is a soldier.

Well, I ended up a Kasi (commander of a cohort of 400) right away.  My crawl up the ranks to Molkar (commander of half a legion) and eventually Kerdu (General) of a Legion took some years.  I was promoted to Kerdu of the Legion of Mnashu of Thri'il just after my marriage.  The previous Kerdu Mnashu had recently been killed and my clan put me forward as the ideal candidate to take the post; young, strong, brave, willing to follow orders, not too bright, and completely expendable.

I eventually drifted out of Tekumel when I hit grad school.  Korunme's wife Nlel had just become pregnant.

As far as future career, I expect ol' Korunme would come home once in a while when the Army let him, shag his wife senseless while he was home, and then wander out into the frontier again, maybe to return some day, maybe to return only as a "We regret to inform you" letter from the Imperium.  Children would be raised in the clan house.

If I were lucky, I'd live out my twenty years in service and retire, perhaps get a small villa somewhere where I would live with my wives and children.  I'm sure Nlel would love some junior wives to boss around, and since Nlel is both smart and kind to me, I'm sure the junior wives would be pretty.... but not QUITE as pretty as Nlel.


In such ways are foreigners assimilated into the Tsolyani Empire.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 18, 2015, 04:50:24 PM
Quote from: Bren;842641
Thanks for the extra info.

The gaming in real time is unusual. I've never done that. Time always moves faster or slower than real life. Unless there is a lot of travel, it moves slower.


Well, this was back in the 1974 - 1976 era; nobody really had much of any experience running a long-term RPG campaign. Phil kept very detailed records on what happened over the course of a week, and would roll for each day of the week at the beginning of a game session. if anything turned up on the encounter tables, we'd play 'Tuesday's encounter with the six bandits', and then get on with the campaign.

It got to be a running joke, to the point where I made a little folding deck chair to go with my personality figure when we went off on voyages with Capt. Harchar. We'd set sail, and on the off days when we weren't fighing off pirates or Hlyss nest-ships I's sit in me deck chair and watch the waves go by. Very restful, and very relaxing. Not that I let my guard down, of course...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 18, 2015, 04:54:08 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842700
* quick Google search *

Dang, I'd never heard of those!  Chirine, old boot, it appears I owe you yet another one...


I try. I think Phil would have loved these; he would have reveled in all the little details, as he had most of them in his books - did you know he was a friend of Dr. Otto Schaden, an Egyptologist you see on TV all the time?

Of course, we would have hated it; we'd be up to our hips in murdered people instantly, and told by the Imperium to investigate the crimes forthwith. Would have been fun to watch Phil run a murder mystery, though... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 18, 2015, 04:55:27 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842702
Yep.  Though it's too bad that Chirine wasn't around in my heavy days of underworld crawling... a man with eidetic memory is SO damn handy to have around when you're wondering "Did we get teleported or does my map suck?"


Thank you for the compliment! I think I can still give you the directions around the Temple of Vimuhla or the Garden of the Weeping Snows from memory - I need to get a life, eh? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 18, 2015, 05:02:39 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;842728


Of course, we would have hated it; we'd be up to our hips in murdered people instantly, and told by the Imperium to investigate the crimes forthwith. Would have been fun to watch Phil run a murder mystery, though... :)


Another advantage to the life of a career soldier... "Dammit, Jim, I'm a general, not a detective."

Of course since it's high-society I'd no doubt be called upon to be the "sharp edge" for the priest of Thumis handling the investigation, and then have to cope with the fact that the perpetrators are trying to silence HIM...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 18, 2015, 05:03:26 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;842725
It got to be a running joke, to the point where I made a little folding deck chair to go with my personality figure when we went off on voyages with Capt. Harchar.


Not an exaggeration.  He really did.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 18, 2015, 05:05:20 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;842703
How much are "chops", carved seals, or engraved stamps used?

Assuming they are ...
Are there specific ones for clans, lineages, families, individuals and official usage?
Are they important and treasured for their representative power?  
Can they be duplicated or are there ones that cannot be?
=


Oh, yes, very much so. The 'crown jewel' of the Imperium itself is the Kolumel, the 'Seal' in the Seal Imperium. The thing is an ancient artifact, and has the ability to emboss the image of the Seal into anything. Period, anything. As an Imperial officer, I have the Kolumel engraved on my suit of armor's shoulder plates in token of my serving the Imperium.

Short answer: yes, very much so.

Everybody uses seals and 'chops' to sign things; it saves time and writer's cramp. I have several seals in my collection - they are Chinese and Mughal, and not Tsolyani - but they do show players what this stuff looks like and how it works.

And yes, they are very important and valuable - both for their intrinsic worth and for what they represent. They can be duplicated or forged, of course, with one single exception: the Kolumel is simply impossible to forge, as are the embossed impressions it leaves in any material that it is used on.

I should also mention that the scribes also use block printing to run off copies of regularly issued documents; the cheapest copies of the Imperial citizenship papers are done this way, and normally one pays a  scribe to do a niceer version to show everyone. I still have the printed one that Phil gave me in 1976, as well as the really nice one that I did later on.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 18, 2015, 05:06:49 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;842725
Well, this was back in the 1974 - 1976 era; nobody really had much of any experience running a long-term RPG campaign.
I've just never seen it run that way. Even back in 1974. Typically travel in the wilderness moved faster than real time since you might travel several days without an encounter that took up a lot of time. Exploring in the dungeon again moved faster than real time, taking 10 minutes to search a room took less time than it took me to type this sentence. Unless there was a wandering encounter. That might be avoided more or less in real time and might be fought somewhat slower than real time (1 minute combat rounds kept the pace close to real time.) Overall, D&D time seemed to move around real time speed for PCs who might explore a nearby dungeon once a week, but once PCs went wilderness exploring game time moved much faster than real time.

When we switched to Runequest around 1980 wilderness travel worked about the same, but combat (now in 6 second rounds) moved significantly slower than real time. Every game since 1980 combat has moved slower than real time.  Also post D&D, games increased the share of time devoted to dialog at the expense of time for exploring and fighting.

Since the 1990s my gaming has included a lot more splitting up the PCs. This makes dialog slower than reality since you might need to play out 3 separate scenes sequentially (or by cutting between locations) that in the game would all be occurring simultaneously. Back in the 1970s people rarely split off from the party.

And dialog and combat sometimes gets slower than real time because some folks I game with don't have eidetic memories, so they do want to right down clever dialog. I like the result, but I hate the delay. And everyone is too lazy to right up a transcript of the game so recording wouldn't really help. Maybe in a couple more iterations the computer will do acceptable speech to text conversion.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 18, 2015, 05:07:04 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842705
As far as Korunme's career...

I started off as a barbarian just off the boat.  I was one of the very first group of EPT players using the green covered ditto rules.

We were in the foreigner's quarter of Jakalla at first.  Very soon, Al Muscielewicz, my first wife, and I formed a "mutual defense pact" so that one of us would stand watch while the others slept.  The cheap flop spots in the foreigner's quarters are not safe.  Rather like many modern homeless shelters, sad to say.

Very soon, Moose established himself as heavy muscle for disputes among the fishermen on the river, I was fighting in the arena for pay, and Anka'a was providing halftime entertainment as a nude bareknuckle boxer.  Thus we got enough money to rent a room with a door that actually had a bar.

About the time that I had advanced enough in level that I could leave the foreigners' quarter safely, I joined the army because I figured it would give me a chance to see the world, experience exotic cultures, meet fascinating people, and kill them.  I figured it would be a chance to get the "lay of the land" while at the same time being a soldier would give me a place in Tsolyani society.  Other players as mentioned above were trying to ingratiate themselves into high society, play political games, etc.  I just wanted a place where I knew what was expected of me.  I figured if the Tsolyani army was like every other army in the world throughout time, there would be cheerfully smiling sergeants who would be only too happy to tell me exactly what was expected of me.

It also meant I didn't have to worry about the perils of being a foreigner in Tsolyani society... a soldier is a soldier.

Well, I ended up a Kasi (commander of a cohort of 400) right away.  My crawl up the ranks to Molkar (commander of half a legion) and eventually Kerdu (General) of a Legion took some years.  I was promoted to Kerdu of the Legion of Mnashu of Thri'il just after my marriage.  The previous Kerdu Mnashu had recently been killed and my clan put me forward as the ideal candidate to take the post; young, strong, brave, willing to follow orders, not too bright, and completely expendable.

I eventually drifted out of Tekumel when I hit grad school.  Korunme's wife Nlel had just become pregnant.

As far as future career, I expect ol' Korunme would come home once in a while when the Army let him, shag his wife senseless while he was home, and then wander out into the frontier again, maybe to return some day, maybe to return only as a "We regret to inform you" letter from the Imperium.  Children would be raised in the clan house.

If I were lucky, I'd live out my twenty years in service and retire, perhaps get a small villa somewhere where I would live with my wives and children.  I'm sure Nlel would love some junior wives to boss around, and since Nlel is both smart and kind to me, I'm sure the junior wives would be pretty.... but not QUITE as pretty as Nlel.


In such ways are foreigners assimilated into the Tsolyani Empire.


And there you have it folks; a decade and more of gaming with Phil as a PC digested into a short post. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 18, 2015, 05:08:02 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842732
Another advantage to the life of a career soldier... "Dammit, Jim, I'm a general, not a detective."

Of course since it's high-society I'd no doubt be called upon to be the "sharp edge" for the priest of Thumis handling the investigation, and then have to cope with the fact that the perpetrators are trying to silence HIM...


Ain't that the truth... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 18, 2015, 05:08:03 PM
Quote from: Bren;842185
Man I hate it when dipshits and psychopaths give backstabbing a bad name. It just ruins the fun for the rest of us. ;)


Actually...

So, okay, they all liked that sort of thing.  Good for them as long as I'm elsewhere.

Well, Phil wasn't one to let his NPCs simply stand by and be victimized.  Being as fond of Jack Vance as Gary was*, his NPCs could cheat, backstab, betray, and skulldug like experts.  So "As ye sow, so shall ye reap."

It reached the point where that group's entire evening would consist of almost nothing but betrayal and backstabbing.  To the point where literally it reached the point where the PCs, IN CHARACTER, sat around at dinner parties discussing how their host was going to betray them, and placing bets if they'd be killed or captured for ransom.

Petard, 1 each, player characters, for the hoisting of by their own.

*I remember the day Phil got his hardcover autographed copy of Cugel's Saga right off the press.  He was positively giddy.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 18, 2015, 05:10:30 PM
Quote from: Bren;842736
I've just never seen it run that way. Even back in 1974. Typically travel in the wilderness moved faster than real time since you might travel several days without an encounter that took up a lot of time. Exploring in the dungeon again moved faster than real time, taking 10 minutes to search a room took less time than it took me to type this sentence. Unless there was a wandering encounter. That might be avoided more or less in real time and might be fought somewhat slower than real time (1 minute combat rounds kept the pace close to real time.) Overall, D&D time seemed to move around real time speed for PCs who might explore a nearby dungeon once a week, but once PCs went wilderness exploring game time moved much faster than real time.

When we switched to Runequest around 1980 wilderness travel worked about the same, but combat (now in 6 second rounds) moved significantly slower than real time. Every game since 1980 combat has moved slower than real time.  Also post D&D, games increased the share of time devoted to dialog at the expense of time for exploring and fighting.

Since the 1990s my gaming has included a lot more splitting up the PCs. This makes dialog slower than reality since you might need to play out 3 separate scenes sequentially (or by cutting between locations) that in the game would all be occurring simultaneously. Back in the 1970s people rarely split off from the party.

And dialog and combat sometimes gets slower than real time because some folks I game with don't have eidetic memories, so they do want to right down clever dialog. I like the result, but I hate the delay. And everyone is too lazy to right up a transcript of the game so recording wouldn't really help. Maybe in a couple more iterations the computer will do acceptable speech to text conversion.


 Oh, I agree with you; that's the way Phil did it, and he kept on doing it that way during all the time I gamed with him.

I don't think it really made any difference to the game play; for us, the game sessions were as much a social and working occasion as much as a game session.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 18, 2015, 05:13:17 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842739
Actually...

So, okay, they all liked that sort of thing.  Good for them as long as I'm elsewhere.

Well, Phil wasn't one to let his NPCs simply stand by and be victimized.  Being as fond of Jack Vance as Gary was*, his NPCs could cheat, backstab, betray, and skulldug like experts.  So "As ye sow, so shall ye reap."

It reached the point where that group's entire evening would consist of almost nothing but betrayal and backstabbing.  To the point where literally it reached the point where the PCs, IN CHARACTER, sat around at dinner parties discussing how their host was going to betray them, and placing bets if they'd be killed or captured for ransom.

Petard, 1 each, player characters, for the hoisting of by their own.

*I remember the day Phil got his hardcover autographed copy of Cugel's Saga right off the press.  He was positively giddy.


Yeah, that's a pretty good description of the way hat those guys played. It was a trial, and I was glad to leave. It still gives me a bad taste in my mouth to this day; my curse, throughout my life, has been to know what *could* have been. These guys wasted a lot of opportunity, I think.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 18, 2015, 05:48:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;842742
Yeah, that's a pretty good description of the way hat those guys played. It was a trial, and I was glad to leave. It still gives me a bad taste in my mouth to this day; my curse, throughout my life, has been to know what *could* have been. These guys wasted a lot of opportunity, I think.


Agreed.  Among other things it permanently soured me on people talking about RPGs as "A NARTFORM."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 18, 2015, 06:02:09 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842750
Agreed.  Among other things it permanently soured me on people talking about RPGs as "A NARTFORM."


I have to admit that I am still - after all these years! - trying to get my head around this idea. For me, an I think for the vast majority of the people I have played with and run games for, it was all about sitting down with friends and simply having a fun afternoon or evening (or both) around a table. Laughter and fun were the order of the day - yes, we were pretty 'hard-core' and 'serious' about what we did, but I don't think we ever tried to think of or refer to what we were doing as 'art' of some sort - let alone a 'serious academic endeavor' of some sort.

Observation: Gertie, the mighty golden dragon of Blackmoor and terror-object of players,  was a lump of grey Plasticene clay.

These days, based on the conversations that I overhear in the local game emporium, you'd never get her on the table - she's not an 'officially licensed product, authorized for use with *whatever*'. From what I've seen and heard, there are still people out there who play like we did - and do - but they seem to be 'off the grid'.

And I hate to have to say this, but a fair number of the 'OSR' people that I've tried to talk to have been of the 'serious art form' persuasion...

I'd like to be wrong. I'd like to just have some friends in for an afternoon and push some little toy soldiers around in the painted sawdust, without a lot of seriousness and angst.

Or am I being just a nostalgic old fart, longing for the supposed golden days of my youth? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 18, 2015, 06:20:23 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;842753
I'd like to be wrong. I'd like to just have some friends in for an afternoon and push some little toy soldiers around in the painted sawdust, without a lot of seriousness and angst.

Or am I being just a nostalgic old fart, longing for the supposed golden days of my youth? :)
It need not be an exclusive either or choice. ;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 18, 2015, 06:38:51 PM
Quote from: Bren;842754
It need not be an exclusive either or choice. ;)


True; I'm just tired of getting my percentile dice rammed up my ass by the 'serious artists'. Sorry to be rude; I'm just tired of what I get in my PMs and e-mails. :(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 18, 2015, 07:03:50 PM
Next year at GaryCon you need to not over-schedule yourself (again, as usual) and leave yourself time to play in some of the historical miniatures games.

Not only are there the old standbys, but you can even play LITTLE WARS complete with authentic, antique, Britians "4.7 Inch Naval Rifles," for Vimuhla's sake.  You can play the game just like Herbert George did!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 18, 2015, 07:06:10 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;842755
True; I'm just tired of getting my percentile dice rammed up my ass by the 'serious artists'. Sorry to be rude; I'm just tired of what I get in my PMs and e-mails. :(
No worries. We're good. I don't get RPGs as serious art.

I don't like wacky, gonzo settings with surf board sized swords and kids anime named power moves. I like a game that is more down to earth and a campaign that takes the setting seriously. I like treating the in game events with the same degree of seriousness that characters in the setting might have. I also assume that most characters in the setting have a sense of humor so some in game stuff will be funny to the characters and hence to their players. In addition, the players aren't their characters so sometimes there is a lot of humor for the players in the crazy antics of the characters at the table. As a player watching OG 'romance' the clan good clan girl by accident would be funny. Quite a few of PCs, would also have found that pretty damn funny.

As an example of in game humor, I recall the time my PC in Star Wars (named Bren) had access to an armory full of off duty storm trooper helmets. He painted the eye pieces black on the inside, disabled the coms, and coated the inside of their helmets with contact activated crazy glue. :rotfl:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 18, 2015, 07:53:24 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842760
Next year at GaryCon you need to not over-schedule yourself (again, as usual) and leave yourself time to play in some of the historical miniatures games.

Not only are there the old standbys, but you can even play LITTLE WARS complete with authentic, antique, Britians "4.7 Inch Naval Rifles," for Vimuhla's sake.  You can play the game just like Herbert George did!


Agreed. I looked in on some of these games, and they really looked like fun!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 18, 2015, 08:07:09 PM
Quote from: Bren;842761
No worries. We're good. I don't get RPGs as serious art.

I don't like wacky, gonzo settings with surf board sized swords and kids anime named power moves. I like a game that is more down to earth and a campaign that takes the setting seriously. I like treating the in game events with the same degree of seriousness that characters in the setting might have. I also assume that most characters in the setting have a sense of humor so some in game stuff will be funny to the characters and hence to their players. In addition, the players aren't their characters so sometimes there is a lot of humor for the players in the crazy antics of the characters at the table. As a player watching OG 'romance' the clan good clan girl by accident would be funny. Quite a few of PCs, would also have found that pretty damn funny.

As an example of in game humor, I recall the time my PC in Star Wars (named Bren) had access to an armory full of off duty storm trooper helmets. He painted the eye pieces black on the inside, disabled the coms, and coated the inside of their helmets with contact activated crazy glue. :rotfl:


Very cool, and thank you! Loved the story, too; it's just like what OG - or Dave Arneson! - would have done. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 18, 2015, 11:10:01 PM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842705
As far as Korunme's career...
...
In such ways are foreigners assimilated into the Tsolyani Empire.


A special Thanks for that.

When we first got the book in our hands that is the type of thing I recall being done.

I remember a character arranging a parade after a successful visit to a local underworld.
He hired a band and dancers. He threw handfuls of coppers to the people that gathered along the street. Instant reputation boost.
While it may not have been "authentic" Tekumel, it was great fun had by all.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 18, 2015, 11:17:50 PM
How much has language and customs changed over time?

Say a character was transported from over a hundred years in the past to the present, would they be up to speed with everything or would they be like being  "fresh off the boat from the Isles"?

It was an idea I had for starting new characters and wounder how well it would "fit".
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 18, 2015, 11:41:24 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;842794
A special Thanks for that.

When we first got the book in our hands that is the type of thing I recall being done.

I remember a character arranging a parade after a successful visit to a local underworld.
He hired a band and dancers. He threw handfuls of coppers to the people that gathered along the street. Instant reputation boost.
While it may not have been "authentic" Tekumel, it was great fun had by all.
=

It would be quite 'authentic Tekumel'; see also the fabled "10,000 Kaitar Entrance", when we got back to Khirgar after we stormed the palace of Bassa, king of the Black Ssu.

It's why I employ fanbearers and musicians at the palace; it adds gravity and dignity to the proceedings. Incense bearers and flower-flingers for the big entrances, of course. We even had drum panniers on Chlen beasts for the big parades.

This was Phil's idea of such things:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNjrfXOgZkM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNjrfXOgZkM)

He loved this movie, and quoted it all the time.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 18, 2015, 11:54:37 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;842796
How much has language and customs changed over time?

Say a character was transported from over a hundred years in the past to the present, would they be up to speed with everything or would they be like being  "fresh off the boat from the Isles"?

It was an idea I had for starting new characters and wounder how well it would "fit".
=


Not a whole lot; Phil took a much longer view of time's passage; 'Classical Tsolyani' is a thousand years older then what we speak today. (And Phil himself was like that; his Tsolyani language texts from the early 1950's are the same as the ones from the 1970s; there's no 'drift'.)

Your time traveller would usually be instantly assumed to be a mighty and powerful noble or somebody really important, as this kind of archaic speech pattern is a common affectation of the high clans - Sea Blue, for example - to show how ancient and noble they are. See also the speech affectations of Victorian England - Lord Brabazon had a notable habit (like many other well-born cavalry officers of the time) of dropping his 'h's, as in "Lord Bwabazon", of "Then bwing me another!" (to a station-master when told the train to London had already departed.

The person would be cosseted and feted, and taken to their clans' nearest clanhouse, where the 'finders' would get a nice reward; the clan would then try to sort the whole thing out. An Adventure would result.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 19, 2015, 12:02:08 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;842798


This was Phil's idea of such things:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNjrfXOgZkM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNjrfXOgZkM)

He loved this movie, and quoted it all the time.


1) I'm reminded of "Asterix and Cleopatra".

2) "Hi, honey, I'm home."

3)  In 1963 I'm surprised they got away with some of the outfits some of the female dancers were wearing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 19, 2015, 12:28:23 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842805
3)  In 1963 I'm surprised they got away with some of the outfits some of the female dancers were wearing.
Check out the belly dancers at the beginning of the 1965 version of She. One of the dancers is prominently displayed wearing a similar outfit.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: TheShadow on July 19, 2015, 12:59:27 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842739
Actually...
I remember the day Phil got his hardcover autographed copy of Cugel's Saga right off the press.  He was positively giddy.


How did that come about? Was he a personal friend or correspondent of Jack Vance?

By the way, Vance was far from inaccessible to fans, he seems to have had a wafer-thin gruff exterior but was a great gentleman and became friends with many fans. I heard that a fan phoned him out of the blue as recently as 2010 and chatted with him for two hours.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 19, 2015, 01:11:10 AM
Quote from: The_Shadow;842813
How did that come about? Was he a personal friend or correspondent of Jack Vance?

By the way, Vance was far from inaccessible to fans, he seems to have had a wafer-thin gruff exterior but was a great gentleman and became friends with many fans. I heard that a fan phoned him out of the blue as recently as 2010 and chatted with him for two hours.


I believe a correspondent.  Phil was quite active in SF fandom as a young man.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 19, 2015, 01:18:57 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842805
1) I'm reminded of "Asterix and Cleopatra".

2) "Hi, honey, I'm home."

3)  In 1963 I'm surprised they got away with some of the outfits some of the female dancers were wearing.


Not really; this was when burlesque was still going; remember the half-time entertainer at the World Con in '76?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 19, 2015, 01:26:32 AM
Quote from: The_Shadow;842813
How did that come about? Was he a personal friend or correspondent of Jack Vance?

By the way, Vance was far from inaccessible to fans, he seems to have had a wafer-thin gruff exterior but was a great gentleman and became friends with many fans. I heard that a fan phoned him out of the blue as recently as 2010 and chatted with him for two hours.


Yes, to both. Phil - he was still 'Phillip Barker' at the time - drew the first maps of the Dying Earth for Jack Vance as part of his fan activites. As OG says, they wrote back and forth over the years that Phil was in fandom.

Kinda makes an interesting sidelight on all those discussions of 'Vancian magic in D&D' you see go by on the Internet, don't it? Phil was very familiar with the concept - would anyone like to consider the 'Eyes' and their 'spells in storage' in light of this?

Ooo! ooo! Whole new Internet mythology gets started right here on The RPG Site!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 19, 2015, 01:39:13 AM
Quote from: Old Geezer;842805
1) I'm reminded of "Asterix and Cleopatra".

2) "Hi, honey, I'm home."

3)  In 1963 I'm surprised they got away with some of the outfits some of the female dancers were wearing.


I'd post the drawing from "Asterix", but I don't know how, in my internet illiteracy...

TAAATAAATAARRAAAA! :)

And remember the statue of Horus on the giant palanquin that Phil would always trot out with great ceremony when his beloved Egyptians were getting chased off the table again? :)

It got to the point where you wanted to fight his 25mm Egyptian army just to make him bring out the whole parade of flower-flingers, dancing girls, priests, trumpeters, drummers, more priests, standard-bearers, the palanquin on the shoulders of 36 shaven High Priests, fan-bearers, more priests, and so on, and so on, and so on. The whole procession took up about three feet on the table when in full cry; the best part was phil reading the invocations to the God off of Horus' throne - in the original...

Oh, those were the days! When men were men, miniatures were cheap, and sheep were careful! (Paraphrased from Firesign Theater's hilarious performance of "Gonad the Barbarian!" at the Kansas City World Con...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 19, 2015, 01:48:55 AM
"Gonad didn't have enough brains to be afraid!"

"No not me, no not....!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 19, 2015, 01:50:18 AM
For that matter, though the Temple of Vimuhla was a tour de force, Phil's 12th - 13th century Anglo-Norman castle and outlying walls were no slouch either!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 19, 2015, 05:07:15 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;842817
Yes, to both. Phil - he was still 'Phillip Barker' at the time - drew the first maps of the Dying Earth for Jack Vance as part of his fan activites. As OG says, they wrote back and forth over the years that Phil was in fandom.

Kinda makes an interesting sidelight on all those discussions of 'Vancian magic in D&D' you see go by on the Internet, don't it? Phil was very familiar with the concept - would anyone like to consider the 'Eyes' and their 'spells in storage' in light of this?

Ooo! ooo! Whole new Internet mythology gets started right here on The RPG Site!!! :)


The Eyes are a kind of Vancian magic I like much better than the original, that's for sure!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 19, 2015, 09:41:49 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;842821
For that matter, though the Temple of Vimuhla was a tour de force, Phil's 12th - 13th century Anglo-Norman castle and outlying walls were no slouch either!


I'd agree with that! They were really lovely models, with full interiors and working doors and gates. Pity about what happened to them; Phil's later gamers let the mice get into everything. I took six dead mice and a little over five gallons of mouse poop and bedding out of the Temple of Vimuhla, getting the model ready for Phil's memorial service; the city walls, the Norman keep, and the Scottish tower house never got cleaned up, sad to say - I got pulled off the project by his literary agents, who have control of his collection. I rebuilt the Temple's storage box, where it's been sitting since the middle of 2013.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 19, 2015, 09:43:22 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;842846
The Eyes are a kind of Vancian magic I like much better than the original, that's for sure!


I'd agree! They are the 'hand tools' of the Ancients, and very useful. O' course, you have to know which Eye you have... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 19, 2015, 09:51:35 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;842820
"Gonad didn't have enough brains to be afraid!"

"No not me, no not....!"


I liked the colander being used by Gonad as a helmet, myself... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: rawma on July 19, 2015, 11:25:45 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;842753
Observation: Gertie, the mighty golden dragon of Blackmoor and terror-object of players,  was a lump of grey Plasticene clay.

These days, based on the conversations that I overhear in the local game emporium, you'd never get her on the table - she's not an 'officially licensed product, authorized for use with *whatever*'. From what I've seen and heard, there are still people out there who play like we did - and do - but they seem to be 'off the grid'.


I'd say that's a miniatures wargaming thing and not a role-playing game thing, even where miniatures get used and at game store and convention events. Lump of clay, if it had even a vaguely dragon shape, probably isn't even in the bottom quarter of things I've seen used.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 19, 2015, 01:06:14 PM
Quote from: rawma;842892
I'd say that's a miniatures wargaming thing and not a role-playing game thing, even where miniatures get used and at game store and convention events. Lump of clay, if it had even a vaguely dragon shape, probably isn't even in the bottom quarter of things I've seen used.


Could very well be, but I thought that the D&D and Pathfinder books the people who were doing the talking indicated that they were RPG players. I could very well be wrong, of course; I'm told that D&D 4e was a miniatures game, by OSR people, and I've never really looked at Pathfinder.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 19, 2015, 02:36:24 PM
Over the years I have gathered that there were close to miles of tunnels between "points of interest" in the upper levels of the underworld.
That the deeper one went, the smaller the total area occupied.
The deeper the level, the fewer the connections and those areas became more vertical than horizontal.
Is this a good description?

If I stacked groups of city maps with most sections filled in, would that be a close approximation?

What about the "City of the Dead" is it layered? (If so, how?)

How was underworld movement handled?

Also, I had seen posted that as a character rose in "level" the more followers/servants they had at their beck and call.
Were character entourages composed of clan members, slaves, hirelings or some mixture?

Did these entourages follow characters into the underworld?
If so, how many and how was that managed in actual play?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 19, 2015, 05:14:50 PM
I'll only touch on the last point.

Large groups of low-level NPCs in the underworld of EPT work about as well as they do in a D&D dungeon; horribly.  One failed morale check and you have pandemonium on your hands, not to mention once you get past the 1st or 2nd level ordinary men at arms are useless and simply become hiPurina Monster Chow.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 19, 2015, 05:29:37 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;842873
I'd agree! They are the 'hand tools' of the Ancients, and very useful. O' course, you have to know which Eye you have... :)

Finding out is half the fun the GM has with it.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;842967
I'll only touch on the last point.

Large groups of low-level NPCs in the underworld of EPT work about as well as they do in a D&D dungeon; horribly.  One failed morale check and you have pandemonium on your hands, not to mention once you get past the 1st or 2nd level ordinary men at arms are useless and simply become hiPurina Monster Chow.


:popcorn:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: rawma on July 19, 2015, 08:26:30 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;842905
Could very well be, but I thought that the D&D and Pathfinder books the people who were doing the talking indicated that they were RPG players. I could very well be wrong, of course; I'm told that D&D 4e was a miniatures game, by OSR people, and I've never really looked at Pathfinder.


I haven't played Pathfinder, so maybe it's like that; there are a number of boxes of "Pathfinder Pawns". And I didn't play D&D 4e that many places or for that long, but that wasn't the case where I did play, even at the gaming store that sold miniatures and the Monster Vault (which had a large number of flat cardboard counters for D&D 4e monsters). Maybe I didn't play RPGs with the right sort of RPG miniatures players; when we used miniatures it was almost entirely for functional purposes and not as a pleasing spectacle, and you could live with mismatched miniatures and dice or whatever for the odd creatures. I've never seen anything as fancy as Dwarven Forge terrain used.

Another factor may be that it's on the GM to bring most of the miniatures, and it's hard enough to find good GMs as is, and it would limit the GM a lot if only NPCs for which they had a miniature could appear. But I can't recall any game where players were required to bring a single appropriate miniature of their character, although that doesn't seem to be a difficult standard to demand.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 19, 2015, 08:54:56 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;842926
Over the years I have gathered that there were close to miles of tunnels between "points of interest" in the upper levels of the underworld.
That the deeper one went, the smaller the total area occupied.
The deeper the level, the fewer the connections and those areas became more vertical than horizontal.
Is this a good description?

If I stacked groups of city maps with most sections filled in, would that be a close approximation?

What about the "City of the Dead" is it layered? (If so, how?)

How was underworld movement handled?

Also, I had seen posted that as a character rose in "level" the more followers/servants they had at their beck and call.
Were character entourages composed of clan members, slaves, hirelings or some mixture?

Did these entourages follow characters into the underworld?
If so, how many and how was that managed in actual play?
=


Yes, I'd agree with that. My copy of the Jakallan Underworld by Phil is like that. The 'top' level is huge - the map is a 22" x 36" sheet, but the two 'lower' levels are both 8 1/2" x 11" sheets and are more 'destination' levels. The 'top' level 'tourist traps' are all seperate area, with lots of tunnels and little rooms full of junk in them to keep the areas apart. All Phil's later Underworlds are much simpler; I think he got bored drawing lots of 'empty' tunnels, and usually cut to the good stuff pretty quickly.

I think if you did as you say, you'd have a pretty good approximation. Go for something spread out, with some really 'stacked' deep areas under the surface points of interest - your comment about the (Jakalla?) City of the Dead is well-taken. Phil tended to have the 'shafts' go down from the surface sites, kind of like a vertical mine. I have no idea why he never published any of them - they were all pretty good to play in, and his draftsmanship is astonishing.

Underworld movement was done verbally, until we got to a situation where getting out the lead seemed fun; then it would be by eyeballing the distances. used rulers once in a while, when they seemed needed. I used my set of wooden block for walls and such.

You get servants / hirelings if you pay for them; there's no relationship to what your level is in Phil's games for this. You had to pay them, and usually feed, house, and clothe them as well. It got very expensive, unless (like me) you had a steady income; the usual run of players out at Phil's never hired any, as they didn't have the income to do it.

When you did have an entourage, it was usually of hired 'contract worker', and negotiating the contracts was a game in and of itself. Yes, you'd have a mix, and the only ones that you could really trust were professional mercenaries and your clan-cousins.

We took a group of 'hirelings' into an Underworld exactly once in Phil's campaigns, and that was the assault on the palace of Bassa, King of the Black Ssu - and that was a military action, more then anything else. We always stayed small, nimble, and fast - it always worked out better, that way.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 19, 2015, 08:55:56 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;842971
Finding out is half the fun the GM has with it.



:popcorn:


Agreed! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 19, 2015, 09:00:23 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;842971
Finding out is half the fun the GM has with it.




"Hey, Kargan, does the Temple Codex list an Eye of Splattering your Hapless Apprentice Against The Wall?"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 19, 2015, 09:00:31 PM
Quote from: rawma;843005
I haven't played Pathfinder, so maybe it's like that; there are a number of boxes of "Pathfinder Pawns". And I didn't play D&D 4e that many places or for that long, but that wasn't the case where I did play, even at the gaming store that sold miniatures and the Monster Vault (which had a large number of flat cardboard counters for D&D 4e monsters). Maybe I didn't play RPGs with the right sort of RPG miniatures players; when we used miniatures it was almost entirely for functional purposes and not as a pleasing spectacle, and you could live with mismatched miniatures and dice or whatever for the odd creatures. I've never seen anything as fancy as Dwarven Forge terrain used.

Another factor may be that it's on the GM to bring most of the miniatures, and it's hard enough to find good GMs as is, and it would limit the GM a lot if only NPCs for which they had a miniature could appear. But I can't recall any game where players were required to bring a single appropriate miniature of their character, although that doesn't seem to be a difficult standard to demand.


I would agree with all of this, especially in our games over the years. What I'm mentioning is what I've seen at the big local FLGS and at the local conventions / events, where anything 'homemade' or 'unofficial' is very strongly discouraged by the FLGS or the event / tournament / convention organizers. The players I've seen in these are all pretty much the same way - if it isn't 'authorized for use with', it doesn't get on the table. The historical miniatures guys are still doing all the mix and match home-brew stuff, but that's been the nature of that genre since the 1960s.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 19, 2015, 09:05:13 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;843029
I would agree with all of this, especially in our games over the years. What I'm mentioning is what I've seen at the big local FLGS and at the local conventions / events, where anything 'homemade' or 'unofficial' is very strongly discouraged by the FLGS or the event / tournament / convention organizers. The players I've seen in these are all pretty much the same way - if it isn't 'authorized for use with', it doesn't get on the table. The historical miniatures guys are still doing all the mix and match home-brew stuff, but that's been the nature of that genre since the 1960s.


Yeah, "Games Workshop" is notorious for that.  I still have a bundle of miscellaneous RPG minis and never worried much about having the "right" figure.

And in the case of historical minis modelers, any excuse to make up a new cohort of figures was eagerly taken, which is how you ended up with so much miscellaneous Tekumel stuff, and Phil got his "Idol of Horus."

For that matter it's why one of my HO scale diesel switchers has the rerailing frogs (75 pound steel castings in real life) tossed up on the walkway in gross violation of FRA rules; real people get sloppy all the time.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 20, 2015, 07:47:51 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;843030
Yeah, "Games Workshop" is notorious for that.  I still have a bundle of miscellaneous RPG minis and never worried much about having the "right" figure.

And in the case of historical minis modelers, any excuse to make up a new cohort of figures was eagerly taken, which is how you ended up with so much miscellaneous Tekumel stuff, and Phil got his "Idol of Horus."

For that matter it's why one of my HO scale diesel switchers has the rerailing frogs (75 pound steel castings in real life) tossed up on the walkway in gross violation of FRA rules; real people get sloppy all the time.


Funny you should mention GW. Their older plastic one-part Elven spearmen are dead ringers for your legion, once you give them a Foundry rectangular shield. The Missus got me 80 of them dirt cheap on the web from some guy, so you and your doughty lads and lasses are now sitting in one of the legion trays in the basement.

Lots of their 'dark elf' figures do very well for Livyani, which is a big help to me as we never got the chance to make any of those, and I doubt anybody ever will.

You should see the looks I get from GW players at The Source, when I run games with them... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 20, 2015, 10:09:51 PM
Example 1:
Re the labor, yes. When Vrisa used to go shopping in the marketplace, I'd be there to watch her back; we'd accumulate a retinue of small to medium children, market urchins of all sorts, who would tag along to 'be helpful. We never, every carried anything ourselves - this ad hoc and then later formal retinue would do all of that for us. (For a suitable - and usually small - tip, of course.) I eventually hired some dozen bearers for a trip from Meku to Fasiltum, and they have stayed with me ever since - I even have my own personal Chlen-cart for my luggage.

Example 2:
"When you did have an entourage, it was usually of hired 'contract worker',"

What determines when you are surrounded by people that cater to your every need and when you are on fending for yourself?

Does an entourage imply an important/high status person or just someone from a clan with a lot of excess labor?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 21, 2015, 09:00:58 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;843251

What determines when you are surrounded by people that cater to your every need and when you are on fending for yourself?

Does an entourage imply an important/high status person or just someone from a clan with a lot of excess labor?
=


Well, it's partly on the social context and on how much money you have to pay for the people. When we were just starting out in Phil's campaign, we were pretty much on our own all the time - I did the cooking, for example, when we were 'out in the field'. After I got an appointment as an officer in a legion - low-ranking, of course - then I had an orderly who looked after me when I was with the legion. If I was detached, like on an adventure, it would be back to the basics and I'd be doing the cooking again.

This lasted until I got appointed as an Imperial official and inducted into a high-status clan; I got a very nice salary, which meant that I could hire retainers on a much more permanent basis. Being married by then, the Lady Of The House - Phil used the Ancient Egyptian title - ran the household and I enjoyed the benefits. When we were first starting our household, all we had were the bearers I had hired to move us from Meku to Fasiltum, and they considered it to be A Scandal! that the Noble Lady didn't even have a maid of her own - many disapproving comments were made in my direction, especially by the female bearers, who appointed themselves my wife's temporary maidservants for the trip. We menfolk just got on with the packing, carrying, and things like making the nightly fire.

Once I became a Governor, then I had lots of palace staff to contend with; they all had their own agendas, and I tended to rely on my own legion's troops for things like personal guards and such; the Lady Of The House got her own maids, and hired staff as needed for trips. In our current positions, we have an extensive staff of both military and 'civilian' people, although the dividing line is pretty fuzzy. Her three maids still work directly for her, but the Ladies-in-Waiting work for the majordomo, who works for her. She still runs the household, and I get fussed over a lot; there's talk that I need to have a 'gentleman's gentleman' to look after me - I need a nanny, the Adjutant says, in addition to my half-dozen guards who try to keep me out of trouble.

To quote one of my bodyguards: "Your Lordship will feel much better after Your Lordship kills something." (He was right, too.)

If I was allowed to go on an adventure, I'd probably have to / be able to tend to things myself, but being of high status and rank there would be some muttering in the ranks over it.

Generally, a retinue - even of one person - is an indicator of higher status and dignity. Even a poor clan will make sure that any of its people who are out in public will have a retinue appropriate to the person's status. Certainly, a clan with a lot of 'extra mouths' will put on a really big show - it looks better for the clan and the person being accompanied.

It's like clothing - more and better clothing also indicates wealth and status. Inside the family quarters of the palace or clan house, things are usually very informal, and you don't have many of the social norms that you do when out in public. Age is the status marker, here; a mighty and powerful clan-master will be delighted to be able to serve his elderly clan-mother, no matter what his rank and station might be. If they were out in public, he'd get great respect for being her helper, again because of her high status as one of the elders of the clan.

Again, it' all about the social context. Somebody well-dressed ands accompanied by a number of servants is going to be of high status, and well worth being polite to. Out in public, this is how one determines who is who.

Is this answering your question? Am I helping? I worry...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: TheShadow on July 21, 2015, 10:57:40 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;843024
Phil tended to have the 'shafts' go down from the surface sites, kind of like a vertical mine. I have no idea why he never published any of them - they were all pretty good to play in, and his draftsmanship is astonishing.


Instead, we got things like that Judges Guild module with the ridiculous maze. Sheesh. How could Phil stand by and watch stuff like that get published?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 21, 2015, 12:30:10 PM
Quote from: The_Shadow;843349
Instead, we got things like that Judges Guild module with the ridiculous maze. Sheesh. How could Phil stand by and watch stuff like that get published?
I'm guessing he was busy with other things.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 21, 2015, 01:25:22 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;843326
Is this answering your question? Am I helping? I worry...


This is Exactly the type of thing that helps, when trying to make it feel like the characters are "Not in Kansas Anymore" while still be playable.

My personal take was that I could use "levels" as indicators of status.
A person can only directly address a person of up to 2 ranks above them.
For example, a level 1 would be able to interact (politely) with a level 3 but a level 4 would have a 'gentleman's gentleman' to handle such lowly concerns.

While not "authentic" it is easy to use for representing the stratification in Game terms. It also gives tasks for lower ranks to do.

Would this be completely unacceptable to represent social interactions outside of The Line of Duty?
If so, what was/should be used?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 21, 2015, 01:25:39 PM
Quote from: The_Shadow;843349
Instead, we got things like that Judges Guild module with the ridiculous maze. Sheesh. How could Phil stand by and watch stuff like that get published?


The first level of the Jakallan underworld has a huge maze almost exactly in the middle.  Like 700 x 700 feet.  And it's a true maze, one valid path, dead ends, etc.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 21, 2015, 01:42:32 PM
Quote from: Bren;843369
I guessing he was busy with other things.


My guess would be the same;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 21, 2015, 07:11:21 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;843386
The first level of the Jakallan underworld has a huge maze almost exactly in the middle.  Like 700 x 700 feet.  And it's a true maze, one valid path, dead ends, etc.


Were there many "entrances" into it from above?

What was in the middle?  
Was its purpose just to detain or to disguise access to other places?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 21, 2015, 07:32:41 PM
Quote from: Bren;843369
I'm guessing he was busy with other things.


Um, no, actually. He did not license this product; TSR did, under the terms of their contract with the Professor. He had no recourse, under the terms of the contract, and it was one of the numerous reasons that he and the Blumes parted ways.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 21, 2015, 07:44:51 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;843385
This is Exactly the type of thing that helps, when trying to make it feel like the characters are "Not in Kansas Anymore" while still be playable.

My personal take was that I could use "levels" as indicators of status.
A person can only directly address a person of up to 2 ranks above them.
For example, a level 1 would be able to interact (politely) with a level 3 but a level 4 would have a 'gentleman's gentleman' to handle such lowly concerns.

While not "authentic" it is easy to use for representing the stratification in Game terms. It also gives tasks for lower ranks to do.

Would this be completely unacceptable to represent social interactions outside of The Line of Duty?
If so, what was/should be used?
=


Whew! That's a relief! I do worry.

Yes, I think you have a perfectly workable method going, here. Yes, a lowly person would instinctively look for the majordomo or senior servant - even a low level clan-cousin or something of the high-status person.

If I may as a question - and I am not trying to 'flame' you or anything, why are you using the  phrase not "authentic" for these kinds of 'game mechanics'? Based on my time with Phil, this is a perfectly 'authentic' way of dealing with this in a game setting. In my own games, I use a very similar mechanic, with the only difference being that I tend to use Phil's label of 'Circle' instead of level; viz: Phil to another player: "Chirine is a Tenth-Circle Military Priest; be nice to him, and he'll be nice to you."

It would be perfectly acceptable to do this, at least from seeing how Phil did it in his games. :)

(And, because I'm up early, waiting for my anniversary dinner to arrive - it's my 25th wedding anniversary today, and I have to go in to work, so I am a little cranky right now - this also assumes that one regards Prof. M. A. R. Barker as some sort of authority of expert on the world of Tekumel. I have been assured, in all seriousness, by some Big-Name Tekumel Fans, that he is not, and was Doing it Wrong.) :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 21, 2015, 07:53:44 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;843445
Were there many "entrances" into it from above?

What was in the middle?  
Was its purpose just to detain or to disguise access to other places?
=


Yeah, there were about eight entrances into the first level area; they all came down from various surface locations all over Jakalla, and got you into some interesting stuff pretty quickly. Speaking as a GM, you have to be a little careful with them; they can dump the party right into a section that they want to go to, which makes for a shorter and less interesting adventure.

There is nothing really 'special' in the middle of the thing, as I recall; it acts as a 'buffer state' between the various Temple's portions of the level, and serves as the scene of quite a few encounters with the critters and people who are down there. Not to say it's not worth exploring; Phil stashed away some very neat little games of room in the the maze, so it's always worth looking around in there if you have the time.
So yes, it does detain and delay, as well as provide disguises to locations - I tell ya, there's nothing more disconcerting to suddenly pop out of a stock and standard corridor to find oneself and one's party smack dab in the main Hall of the Temple of Hry'y, with a mob of priests and guard looking at you...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 21, 2015, 07:56:05 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;843386
The first level of the Jakallan underworld has a huge maze almost exactly in the middle.  Like 700 x 700 feet.  And it's a true maze, one valid path, dead ends, etc.


Were you there the night Gary Rudolph got bored mapping the maze, and blew a straight-line hole through the walls with an Eye? It's still on my copy of the map...

Is there a way to post the picture of you holding the map at my Gary Con game here? It's on my blog, in the Gary Con posts, but I'm not Internet-literate to figure out how to do it...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 21, 2015, 08:24:11 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;843448
If I may as a question - and I am not trying to 'flame' you or anything, why are you using the  phrase not "authentic" for these kinds of 'game mechanics'? Based on my time with Phil, this is a perfectly 'authentic' way of dealing with this in a game setting. In my own games, I use a very similar mechanic, with the only difference being that I tend to use Phil's label of 'Circle' instead of level; viz: Phil to another player: "Chirine is a Tenth-Circle Military Priest; be nice to him, and he'll be nice to you."

It would be perfectly acceptable to do this, at least from seeing how Phil did it in his games. :)

As I told Gronan of Simmerya, effectively I'm trying to reconstruct the original game from "Postcards".  

When I run my fingerpainting version of EPT, I want to at least have as many broad strokes as possible within the lines of the original.

Having someone that played in the original and in a style that I expected for the setting, show me where those "lines" are, is very helpful.
I think someone that was in the original game as about as "authentic" as you can get for identifying what is "inside the lines".

Who knows, I may not be the only one that misses the simple pleasure of the old Sword & Planet stories.
Where things were black & white and Unknown!

***
From reading the first 2 novels, later available information is not a perfect fit for how I envisioned the world based on just the EPT rule book.
I get concerned with trying add in "authentic" things learned later that were not in the original rules.
Trying to determine if I would be better off just sticking with the original and all of its warts.  
Let others worry about the Perfect Tekumel.
Just swing my sword in the old fashion way.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 21, 2015, 08:36:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;843326


It's like clothing - more and better clothing also indicates wealth and status. Inside the family quarters of the palace or clan house, things are usually very informal,


Much like Pharonic Egypt and ancient Sumer, clothing on Tekumel tells you a LOT about somebody.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 21, 2015, 08:40:33 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;843451
Is there a way to post the picture of you holding the map at my Gary Con game here? It's on my blog, in the Gary Con posts, but I'm not Internet-literate to figure out how to do it...
You mean this one?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DoY-emQ5ChQ/VShfppuXf4I/AAAAAAAABc4/-IZ5EMLgen8/s1600/15%2B-%2B2.jpg)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 21, 2015, 08:56:28 PM
Quote from: Bren;843460
You mean this one?


Yes!!! That's the one!!! Thank you!!!

I was running the Jakalla Underworld, and having the fight of my life - these guys were really, really good!

The Missus has digitized all of Phil's maps, so I was projecting this particular map up on the way at about 5' by 4' tall. It made a very good 'tactical display', and we had my old figures out on the table for a marching order. It was a great game!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 21, 2015, 09:05:10 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;843454
As I told Gronan of Simmerya, effectively I'm trying to reconstruct the original game from "Postcards".  

When I run my fingerpainting version of EPT, I want to at least have as many broad strokes as possible within the lines of the original.

Having someone that played in the original and in a style that I expected for the setting, show me where those "lines" are, is very helpful.
I think someone that was in the original game as about as "authentic" as you can get for identifying what is "inside the lines".

Who knows, I may not be the only one that misses the simple pleasure of the old Sword & Planet stories.
Where things were black & white and Unknown!

***
From reading the first 2 novels, later available information is not a perfect fit for how I envisioned the world based on just the EPT rule book.
I get concerned with trying add in "authentic" things learned later that were not in the original rules.
Trying to determine if I would be better off just sticking with the original and all of its warts.  
Let others worry about the Perfect Tekumel.
Just swing my sword in the old fashion way.
=


Oh, right, gotcha.

Yeah, I'd agree with your way of looking at things. This is what the Glorious General and I keep muttering about - sometime in the early to middle 1990s, the way Tekumel was viewed really seemed to change. It stopped being the Swords and Planet world of adventures that we had grown up in, and became some sort of Serious Thing with all sorts of political overtones and political correctness.

There was a very strong tendency to 'Get It Right", and for 'Serious' 'Authenticity' to take over from 'just wing it'.

Phil wrote a lot about Tekumel, and then didn't use that material himself if it didn't suit the story arc or the plot line that he was following in the campaign. He was, first and foremost, a storyteller. and I miss that tremendously.

There is no 'Perfect Tekumel', no matter what some self-appointed expert might tell you; there is only the Tekumel of your dreams...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 21, 2015, 09:05:51 PM
Gronan on the left, Chirine on the right.

And that area without much black in it in bottom right on the map, just above the water bottle?

That whole area is one enormous maze.  In ten square to the inch graph paper.

A maze.

One way in.  One way out.

Ten squares to the inch.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 21, 2015, 09:08:02 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;843459
Much like Pharonic Egypt and ancient Sumer, clothing on Tekumel tells you a LOT about somebody.


Oh, yes, exactly there, Glorious General!

And how can you tell he's a 'Glorious General'? 'Cause he's got a whacking big gold plaque on his chest that says so - the Imperial Gold of Glory, won on the field of battle. The thing weighs about four pounds, looks really ornate, and is a pain in the butt to keep polished - ask his orderly... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 21, 2015, 09:10:02 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;843454
A
Trying to determine if I would be better off just sticking with the original and all of its warts.  
Let others worry about the Perfect Tekumel.
Just swing my sword in the old fashion way.
=


NOW you're talking, my clan-nephew!

Have fun, make up some stuff, and use Phil's ideas for color and flavor.

Knock yourself out.  Hell, come to GaryCon and I'll play in your game!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 21, 2015, 09:11:34 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;843468
Oh, yes, exactly there, Glorious General!

And how can you tell he's a 'Glorious General'? 'Cause he's got a whacking big gold plaque on his chest that says so - the Imperial Gold of Glory, won on the field of battle. The thing weighs about four pounds, looks really ornate, and is a pain in the butt to keep polished - ask his orderly... :)


Remember the time Phil insisted that you'd keep your helmet on when reporting to me... until you pointed out that the flame crest was tall enough to tear open the top of the tent over the entryway?

Good times, good times...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 21, 2015, 09:16:59 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;843466
Gronan on the left, Chirine on the right.

And that area without much black in it in bottom right on the map, just above the water bottle?

That whole area is one enormous maze.  In ten square to the inch graph paper.

A maze.

One way in.  One way out.

Ten squares to the inch.


Yep. It's an agony to get through, and nearly impossible to map due to all the twists and turns. It took us the better part of six months of gaming to figure out that there was only one way and and out.

And each square of that ten to the inch is ten foot... :jaw-dropping:

There are some really big spaces in the thing - as well as the Throne of Death, in the Hall of Death, in the Palace of Death, on the Island of Death, in the middle of the River of Death, overlooked by the Bridge of Death, and you get there by the Boat of Death.

Notice a trend, here? Our Phil was real subtle, at times, and this wasn't one of them... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 21, 2015, 09:18:04 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;843470
NOW you're talking, my clan-nephew!

Have fun, make up some stuff, and use Phil's ideas for color and flavor.

Knock yourself out.  Hell, come to GaryCon and I'll play in your game!


Yep. I would too. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 21, 2015, 09:22:04 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;843462
Yes!!! That's the one!!! Thank you!!!

I was running the Jakalla Underworld, and having the fight of my life - these guys were really, really good!


At this point I want to point out that Chirine "plays fair."  That is, he'll (for instance) put an ambush someplace that will absolutely kill your asses if you blunder into it... but if you figure there's probably an ambush there and go around it, he will NOT relocate the ambush to make you hit it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 21, 2015, 09:23:43 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;843475

There are some really big spaces in the thing - as well as the Throne of Death, in the Hall of Death, in the Palace of Death, on the Island of Death, in the middle of the River of Death, overlooked by the Bridge of Death, and you get there by the Boat of Death.


"The operative word, Mister Spock, is d-d-d-d-Death!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 21, 2015, 09:28:46 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;843471
Remember the time Phil insisted that you'd keep your helmet on when reporting to me... until you pointed out that the flame crest was tall enough to tear open the top of the tent over the entryway?

Good times, good times...


Yep. Come back with us now, to Those Thrilling Days Of Yesteryear in the old Thursday Night Group. The scene: Korumne's tent, near Castle Tilketl on the Northwest Frontier...

Jeff: "Er, Phil, it's a closed face helm."
Phil: "Well, protocol says you leave it on when reporting to your superior officer."
Jeff: "Okay, Phil; whatever you say."

Enter Chirine, stage left, and salutes.

Chirine: "Mwafful grndle niffle gwiddle, niddly!"
Korunme: "Say what, Chirine?"
Chirine: "Mwafful grndle niffle qwiddle, niddly!!!"
Korunme: "TAKE THAT DAMN HELMET OFF RIGHT NOW!!!"

Didn't let Phil live it down for the rest of the night, being young and cruel... :)

And Korunme issued his legion with open-faced helmets, too; take that, Phil! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 21, 2015, 09:35:03 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;843477
At this point I want to point out that Chirine "plays fair."  That is, he'll (for instance) put an ambush someplace that will absolutely kill your asses if you blunder into it... but if you figure there's probably an ambush there and go around it, he will NOT relocate the ambush to make you hit it.


Well, yes. Is there any other way to play? I mean, we always assumed that the referee / GM was absolutely neutral, and intellectually honest. Yes, I would do my level best to kill you as I played the NPCs and monsters, but that's what they would do and is simply good role-playing.

Normally, I can exploit a party's weaknesses and dithering, and stay ahead of them by at least an hour of gaming. It's why I usually dread running RPGs at conventions - after over thirty years of this, it's kinda boring as the players make the same mistakes that I've seen a hundred times over.

These guys at Gary Con gave me nothing. Absolutely nothing. I had the fight of my gaming life with them, and I think I was able to stay maybe thirty seconds ahead of them the whole time. I came out of the game soaked in sweat, and completely exhausted.

It was wonderful! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 21, 2015, 09:36:02 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;843479
"The operative word, Mister Spock, is d-d-d-d-Death!"


Yep; I'd agree with that! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 21, 2015, 10:08:43 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;843468
The thing weighs about four pounds, looks really ornate, and is a pain in the butt to keep polished - ask his orderly... :)
It's gold, not silver or bronze. Shouldn't it only need dusting?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 21, 2015, 10:51:55 PM
Quote from: Bren;843493
It's gold, not silver or bronze. Shouldn't it only need dusting?


Ah, but it's all the enamel that needs to be kept bright.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 21, 2015, 11:17:14 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;843501
Ah, but it's all the enamel that needs to be kept bright.
Clearly I need a picture. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 22, 2015, 07:59:50 AM
Quote from: Bren;843507
Clearly I need a picture. :)


To hear is to obey...

(http://[URL=http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/chirinebakal/media/DSC00034_zpsjvmtt0ac.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a558/chirinebakal/DSC00034_zpsjvmtt0ac.jpg)[/URL][/IMG]

The thing is solid gold, with bronze, copper, silver, and enameled inlay. Weighs a ton when worn, and makes a good breastplate.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 22, 2015, 08:15:28 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;843454
As I told Gronan of Simmerya, effectively I'm trying to reconstruct the original game from "Postcards".  

When I run my fingerpainting version of EPT, I want to at least have as many broad strokes as possible within the lines of the original.

Having someone that played in the original and in a style that I expected for the setting, show me where those "lines" are, is very helpful.
I think someone that was in the original game as about as "authentic" as you can get for identifying what is "inside the lines".

Who knows, I may not be the only one that misses the simple pleasure of the old Sword & Planet stories.
Where things were black & white and Unknown!
Personally, I fail to associate Tekumel with Black and White morality. But it might be that way in your game.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;843465
Oh, right, gotcha.

Yeah, I'd agree with your way of looking at things. This is what the Glorious General and I keep muttering about - sometime in the early to middle 1990s, the way Tekumel was viewed really seemed to change. It stopped being the Swords and Planet world of adventures that we had grown up in, and became some sort of Serious Thing with all sorts of political overtones and political correctness.

There was a very strong tendency to 'Get It Right", and for 'Serious' 'Authenticity' to take over from 'just wing it'.

Phil wrote a lot about Tekumel, and then didn't use that material himself if it didn't suit the story arc or the plot line that he was following in the campaign. He was, first and foremost, a storyteller. and I miss that tremendously.

There is no 'Perfect Tekumel', no matter what some self-appointed expert might tell you; there is only the Tekumel of your dreams...
Or, for that matter, there's no Perfect Setting X, no matter what the setting.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;843475
Yep. It's an agony to get through, and nearly impossible to map due to all the twists and turns. It took us the better part of six months of gaming to figure out that there was only one way and and out.

And each square of that ten to the inch is ten foot... :jaw-dropping:

There are some really big spaces in the thing - as well as the Throne of Death, in the Hall of Death, in the Palace of Death, on the Island of Death, in the middle of the River of Death, overlooked by the Bridge of Death, and you get there by the Boat of Death.

Notice a trend, here? Our Phil was real subtle, at times, and this wasn't one of them... :)
A trend? What do you mean:)? These names are all different, one is a Throne, another is a Bridge, surely it doesn't get more dissimilar than that:D!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;843477
At this point I want to point out that Chirine "plays fair."  That is, he'll (for instance) put an ambush someplace that will absolutely kill your asses if you blunder into it... but if you figure there's probably an ambush there and go around it, he will NOT relocate the ambush to make you hit it.
And for this he has my respect;).
BTW, Gronan, wasn't "playing fair" assumed in those early days in the 70ies? Or is Chirine an outlier by always playing fair?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;843483
Well, yes. Is there any other way to play? I mean, we always assumed that the referee / GM was absolutely neutral, and intellectually honest. Yes, I would do my level best to kill you as I played the NPCs and monsters, but that's what they would do and is simply good role-playing.
I almost envy you for being able to ask that:D!
Same question that I asked Gronan, really. Was this the assumed playstyle?
Because these days, "changing the location of the bandit ambush" is part of the Refereeing advice in some books. Apparently me refusing to do it means I suck at GMing, or at least I'm not interested in the storytelling aspect of it;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 22, 2015, 09:28:37 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;843565

I almost envy you for being able to ask that:D!
Same question that I asked Gronan, really. Was this the assumed playstyle?
Because these days, "changing the location of the bandit ambush" is part of the Refereeing advice in some books. Apparently me refusing to do it means I suck at GMing, or at least I'm not interested in the storytelling aspect of it;).


But... But... :jaw-dropping:

I mean no disrespect to anyone with the following...

What you describe verges on the incomprehensible to me. "Changing the location" is, at least to me cheating of a sort. It's my job as your GM to plan my strategy just as carefully as you plan yours - we're trying to outwit each other, more then anything else. I have always told my players that "the rules are fixed and immutable; I will not change them just to get my own way." To me, that's being dishonest with my players, and with myself.

And storytelling... :confused:

I'm astonished; Phil and I managed to tell some pretty interesting and fun stories in our time, and we did it by playing the parts of the NPCs and such for our players to interact with. From what I can tell, the kind of storytelling that we did is not the kind of storytelling that quite a few people are thinking of...

I am baffled, I confess...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 22, 2015, 11:49:27 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;843570
But... But... :jaw-dropping:

I mean no disrespect to anyone with the following...

What you describe verges on the incomprehensible to me. "Changing the location" is, at least to me cheating of a sort. It's my job as your GM to plan my strategy just as carefully as you plan yours - we're trying to outwit each other, more then anything else. I have always told my players that "the rules are fixed and immutable; I will not change them just to get my own way." To me, that's being dishonest with my players, and with myself.
Well, Chirine, I've told them pretty much the same, both in more and in less polite terms...
I guess I'm not the person to defend that stance. In fact, I just asked, because a few of them defended it with "that's something all GMs have been doing since there were GMs":).
I figured that I'd better check, since I can't imagine how your playstyle would work if mixed with such tactics;).

Quote
And storytelling... :confused:

I'm astonished; Phil and I managed to tell some pretty interesting and fun stories in our time, and we did it by playing the parts of the NPCs and such for our players to interact with. From what I can tell, the kind of storytelling that we did is not the kind of storytelling that quite a few people are thinking of...

I am baffled, I confess...
It's the difference between an emerging story that you write as you go, and one that you have written already. If you do the former, well, your style more or less emerges, with some changes due to mechanics and the goals of the players. If you do the latter, you need to avoid players' actions having consequences that can spoil your story.
I've done both (hey, I was taught first that "players should not be allowed to spoil the GM's story, when I ditched this approach I thought it's a new style:D). I can attest that while the stories might be similar, they just have a different "feel". I can also attest that the latter approach is more taxing on the GM;).

In short, it's like the difference between pre-planned and emerging anything (or between kata and application, if you want).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 22, 2015, 01:27:52 PM
Due to a busy schedule I probably won't be able to comment much before Friday, but I have a lot to say on this subject.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 22, 2015, 01:37:07 PM
How do you reconcile this with the player's need of having Something Happening all the time? (or is this a modern requirement?)

Filtering for players that can make their own "Happenings" within the "reality" of the game can lead to having no players these days.

It is even more critical with Play by Post games where any pause can cause player loss.

I try to use time compression but from your reports Mr. Barker did not.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 22, 2015, 07:03:48 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;843592
Well, Chirine, I've told them pretty much the same, both in more and in less polite terms...
I guess I'm not the person to defend that stance. In fact, I just asked, because a few of them defended it with "that's something all GMs have been doing since there were GMs":).
I figured that I'd better check, since I can't imagine how your playstyle would work if mixed with such tactics;).


It's the difference between an emerging story that you write as you go, and one that you have written already. If you do the former, well, your style more or less emerges, with some changes due to mechanics and the goals of the players. If you do the latter, you need to avoid players' actions having consequences that can spoil your story.
I've done both (hey, I was taught first that "players should not be allowed to spoil the GM's story, when I ditched this approach I thought it's a new style:D). I can attest that while the stories might be similar, they just have a different "feel". I can also attest that the latter approach is more taxing on the GM;).

In short, it's like the difference between pre-planned and emerging anything (or between kata and application, if you want).


Ah. I think I understand. I'm still trying to get my head around all of this; it's pretty alien to the way I play.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 22, 2015, 07:04:26 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;843603
Due to a busy schedule I probably won't be able to comment much before Friday, but I have a lot to say on this subject.


I'll be interested to hear your take on this, actually.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 22, 2015, 07:16:45 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;843673
Ah. I think I understand. I'm still trying to get my head around all of this; it's pretty alien to the way I play.

I suspected it would be. But I was curious to see it confirmed:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;843674
I'll be interested to hear your take on this, actually.

+1;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 22, 2015, 07:19:28 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;843604
How do you reconcile this with the player's need of having Something Happening all the time? (or is this a modern requirement?)

Filtering for players that can make their own "Happenings" within the "reality" of the game can lead to having no players these days.

It is even more critical with Play by Post games where any pause can cause player loss.

I try to use time compression but from your reports Mr. Barker did not.
=


Um. Let me try to answer this.

I don't worry about having 'something happening all the time'; in my experience, and I think that this is because I do what Phil did, and play a larger 'meta game' campaign over and above what the players are doing. There's always something happening, which the players can interact with or not as they desire to. I think that because I have this over-arching framework of activity - the 'background radiation' of the continuing world-setting - there is always something for the players to do in my campaign. There is no 'down time', unless the players choose to take an in-game vacation from 'adventuring', and then we have fun gaming out that 'leisure time activity'.

Yes, I have run games and mini-campaigns of players going to the marketplace to go shopping; this has resulted in some of the best gaming - by our standards - that I have ever done.

I do compress time as needed, when people don't want to watch the ocean go by. I do not know why Phil didn't do this; I think it was just the way he played.

I find this discussion fascinating. I have been accused by some players of running a 'railroady' campaign because I have this over-arching 'meta game' running in the background. I have been told by these folks that unless I have something called 'complete player agency', they will not play in my games. I will confess to being very confused by this, as in both Phil's and my games I allow the players to do literally anything they want. I do not 'script' adventures; I let them grow organically from the players' actions and how these affect their interactions with the world-setting. This seems to be a bizarre notion, in some places.

For Phil, Tekumel was a living, breathing thing that kept right on going no matter what we might or might do in the game sessions. Every month, he'd sit down with his copy of Tony Bath's book, and roll for what was happening in the world of his 1,800 NPCs. We'd then get to hear about their adventures through the marketplace rumors, dispatches, and other 'media' at our disposal. I do the same thing; my campaign keeps rolling right along, and my players drop in and out as they are able to.

Is this what's called 'sandbox play' or am I mistaken about this? I genuinely don't know what a lot of people mean by the terms that they use, these days; it's like a different language, to me...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 22, 2015, 07:29:35 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;843678

I find this discussion fascinating. I have been accused by some players of running a 'railroady' campaign because I have this over-arching 'meta game' running in the background. I have been told by these folks that unless I have something called 'complete player agency', they will not play in my games. I will confess to being very confused by this, as in both Phil's and my games I allow the players to do literally anything they want. I do not 'script' adventures; I let them grow organically from the players' actions and how these affect their interactions with the world-
setting. This seems to be a bizarre notion, in some places.

Complete Player Agency (CPA): A Platonic ideal of non-railroading the players, which has about as many meanings as there are people using the term. Possibly the meanings might outnumber the users, as I suspect:).
In extreme forms, it means you want to kick the person using the term out of your group now, before there's time for him or her to create too much drama around it;).

Quote
For Phil, Tekumel was a living, breathing thing that kept right on going no matter what we might or might do in the game sessions. Every month, he'd sit down with his copy of Tony Bath's book, and roll for what was happening in the world of his 1,800 NPCs. We'd then get to hear about their adventures through the marketplace rumors, dispatches, and other 'media' at our disposal. I do the same thing; my campaign keeps rolling right along, and my players drop in and out as they are able to.

Is this what's called 'sandbox play' or am I mistaken about this? I genuinely don't know what a lot of people mean by the terms that they use, these days; it's like a different language, to me...

This is definitely how I see sandbox play. Since there's no vocabulary of roleplaying games, some people think that a sandbox game means the NPCs and locations don't change unless the PCs visit them and bring some change.
I usually oppose such statements with the argument that this is merely how a poorly done sandbox looks like:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 22, 2015, 07:31:39 PM
I think a lot may come down to "players expecting to be entertained" or "GMs trying to entertain" instead of having players entertain themselves in a moving world, with a GM turning the hand-crank.

I think that "Dungeon World" re-introduces that with its "Fronts".
What's old is new again.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 22, 2015, 09:24:12 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;843681
Complete Player Agency (CPA): A Platonic ideal of non-railroading the players, which has about as many meanings as there are people using the term. Possibly the meanings might outnumber the users, as I suspect:).
In extreme forms, it means you want to kick the person using the term out of your group now, before there's time for him or her to create too much drama around it;).


This is definitely how I see sandbox play. Since there's no vocabulary of roleplaying games, some people think that a sandbox game means the NPCs and locations don't change unless the PCs visit them and bring some change.
I usually oppose such statements with the argument that this is merely how a poorly done sandbox looks like:D!


Um, all right. Gotcha.

I should say that I do not have any players in my games who think this way; I ran into this when I tried to do some 'outreach' to local gamers, inviting them to play in my campaign. The effort failed quite miserably; I was told that I am quite out-of-step with modern gaming.

.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 22, 2015, 09:25:07 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;843682
I think a lot may come down to "players expecting to be entertained" or "GMs trying to entertain" instead of having players entertain themselves in a moving world, with a GM turning the hand-crank.

I think that "Dungeon World" re-introduces that with its "Fronts".
What's old is new again.
=


Ah! Understood!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 22, 2015, 09:33:56 PM
In the EPT rules there is a section on intelligent weapons.
(I gather this was an Arneson innovation that was included.)
How frequent were these found and what impact did they have?

For that matter, how much "special loot" was normal to be found in your early adventures?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 22, 2015, 09:41:19 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;843563
The thing is solid gold, with bronze, copper, silver, and enameled inlay. Weighs a ton when worn, and makes a good breastplate.
Holy chlen crap that is one big honking medal. I was expecting the Glorious General wore it on his chest, not that it was as big as his chest. I retract my quibble about polishing.

I like the picture. Reminds me of the artwork I commissioned for our Star Wars games and a few of the RPG props I've created in the past. (Nothing quite as elaborate as you guys though.)

Quote from: AsenRG;843565
BTW, Gronan, wasn't "playing fair" assumed in those early days in the 70ies? Or is Chirine an outlier by always playing fair?
That was the expectation and assumption in our  1970s era groups. It's why we sometimes called the DM the Referee.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;843570
"Changing the location" is, at least to me cheating of a sort. It's my job as your GM to plan my strategy just as carefully as you plan yours - we're trying to outwit each other, more then anything else. I have always told my players that "the rules are fixed and immutable; I will not change them just to get my own way." To me, that's being dishonest with my players, and with myself.
I get what you are saying. Though I backed off trying to outwit the players some decades ago after killing way too many PCs. Now I play the NPCs based on their personality and stats. The clever, tactically minded NPCs are tough to outwit, the dumb or tactically poor NPCs are…well they are like dumb and tactically idiotic people in history. Pretty easy to outwit. I enjoy playing the differences and the players enjoy getting to be smarter than some of the NPCs so everybody is happy.

Changing location if not done to beat the players doesn’t quite strike me as cheating. To me it comes across as laziness on my part as the GM. It is also aesthetically distasteful to me as a style of play. I enjoy the players making choices I didn’t anticipate. If I didn’t, I’d just go play solitaire.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;843678
I find this discussion fascinating. I have been accused by some players of running a 'railroady' campaign because I have this over-arching 'meta game' running in the background. I have been told by these folks that unless I have something called 'complete player agency', they will not play in my games. I will confess to being very confused by this, as in both Phil's and my games I allow the players to do literally anything they want. I do not 'script' adventures; I let them grow organically from the players' actions and how these affect their interactions with the world-setting. This seems to be a bizarre notion, in some places.
Near as I can tell the objections are not about player agency, they are about PC power. Some people have a notion that the PCs should be the most important or powerful characters in the setting and that the game revolves solely around the PCs. (I’m guessing you’ll have a hard time grokking this as well because it is the antithesis of the way you played and run Tekumel.

I also had to chuckle to myself as I am running Honor+Intrigue in 1624 France. Absent almost inconceivably massive player based activity, the French are going to lay siege to La Rochelle in three years. Plot doesn’t get much more meta than playing through real history. The players have agency. They chose their patrons from the people they helped or impressed and who then offered them positions. Those choices weren’t up to me as the GM. They decide whether they want to follow their orders and succeed at their missions or desert and they decide whether to betray their current patron to some possibly more important future patron. And when I planned for them to climb up the donjon tower to free a prisoner from the dungeon inside, they decided to ask – “So where do they hold the hangings? Are they in town or out at the prison?” And then change from breaking the prisoner out of prison to freeing the prisoner on the way to the hanging. Which was a much easier task actually and one that for some reason I had not anticipated. To me that is agency.

Quote
For Phil, Tekumel was a living, breathing thing that kept right on going no matter what we might or might do in the game sessions. Every month, he'd sit down with his copy of Tony Bath's book, and roll for what was happening in the world of his 1,800 NPCs. We'd then get to hear about their adventures through the marketplace rumors, dispatches, and other 'media' at our disposal. I do the same thing; my campaign keeps rolling right along, and my players drop in and out as they are able to.
Now that is an impressive amount of background activity going on and it’s way more NPCs than the sometimes ludicrous number I have in my H+I game. Kudos to both of you.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 23, 2015, 09:12:34 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;843718
In the EPT rules there is a section on intelligent weapons.
(I gather this was an Arneson innovation that was included.)
How frequent were these found and what impact did they have?

For that matter, how much "special loot" was normal to be found in your early adventures?
=


Yeah, this was a section that Phil tossed in for Dave; Gary got some pet sections, too.

They were very, very, very rare in Phil's campaign. We got exactly one, in over a decade of gaming. It was the intelligent sword that Vrisa got, before we marched off to the Northwest Frontier; we never did figure out if the damn thing was an AI or an imprisoned demon. The former was favored as a theory, but nobody wanted to get close to the thing to find out. It bonded with her, she bonded with it, and we all avoided it like the plague, as it did have a mind of it's own. It was made of the ceramet material of the ancients, and had a energy field as an edge; it would cut through just about anything, and with Kathy's close-to-max S&G stats it made her a real threat to anything that annoyed us. Saved my bacon a few times, too.

We didn't see a lot of 'special loot', ever. Yes, there was some pretty cool stuff, but Phil tended not to hand out the goodies unless you really ran some pretty severe risks. I got a +4 +5 mace off some dead Bednjallan guy, which I still keep around for unwelcome guests, but I had to kill a heap of nasty critters to get it. It was one of the few game sessions where I used all of my spells, as there was a heap of killing that needed to be done.

Wholesale slaughter, that's me!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 23, 2015, 09:16:52 AM
Quote from: Bren;843722
Holy chlen crap that is one big honking medal. I was expecting the Glorious General wore it on his chest, not that it was as big as his chest. I retract my quibble about polishing.

I like the picture. Reminds me of the artwork I commissioned for our Star Wars games and a few of the RPG props I've created in the past. (Nothing quite as elaborate as you guys though.)

That was the expectation and assumption in our  1970s era groups. It's why we sometimes called the DM the Referee.

I get what you are saying. Though I backed off trying to outwit the players some decades ago after killing way too many PCs. Now I play the NPCs based on their personality and stats. The clever, tactically minded NPCs are tough to outwit, the dumb or tactically poor NPCs are…well they are like dumb and tactically idiotic people in history. Pretty easy to outwit. I enjoy playing the differences and the players enjoy getting to be smarter than some of the NPCs so everybody is happy.

Changing location if not done to beat the players doesn’t quite strike me as cheating. To me it comes across as laziness on my part as the GM. It is also aesthetically distasteful to me as a style of play. I enjoy the players making choices I didn’t anticipate. If I didn’t, I’d just go play solitaire.

Near as I can tell the objections are not about player agency, they are about PC power. Some people have a notion that the PCs should be the most important or powerful characters in the setting and that the game revolves solely around the PCs. (I’m guessing you’ll have a hard time grokking this as well because it is the antithesis of the way you played and run Tekumel.

I also had to chuckle to myself as I am running Honor+Intrigue in 1624 France. Absent almost inconceivably massive player based activity, the French are going to lay siege to La Rochelle in three years. Plot doesn’t get much more meta than playing through real history. The players have agency. They chose their patrons from the people they helped or impressed and who then offered them positions. Those choices weren’t up to me as the GM. They decide whether they want to follow their orders and succeed at their missions or desert and they decide whether to betray their current patron to some possibly more important future patron. And when I planned for them to climb up the donjon tower to free a prisoner from the dungeon inside, they decided to ask – “So where do they hold the hangings? Are they in town or out at the prison?” And then change from breaking the prisoner out of prison to freeing the prisoner on the way to the hanging. Which was a much easier task actually and one that for some reason I had not anticipated. To me that is agency.

Now that is an impressive amount of background activity going on and it’s way more NPCs than the sometimes ludicrous number I have in my H+I game. Kudos to both of you.


Heh! Thought you might think so... :)

The art is a redraw I did from Phil's original that he did for the Glorious General - the GG asked Phil what the thing looked liked, ans phil wihipped this off for him.

I like and agree with your points about 'agency'. Very good, and very well put.

Yeah, Phil really put a lot of work into his 'meta-game', but it made a real difference in how the place felt. Once you set the thing in motion, it runs itself; Dave Arneson created a 'sub-routine' for this, with sea captains and their ships moving about between ports; very easy to use, and I have a lot fo fun with it. 'Course, I made models of all the ships, too... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Premier on July 23, 2015, 10:01:21 AM
I love reading this thread!

Let me ask you a question, and please keep in mind this is coming from someone who's not very well-versed in Tékumel lore:

What's the relationship between Church (Churches? Cults? Sects?) and State?

I know about the very basics about the Gods of Stability and Change, but how does all that exist on an institutional level? Is there a "Unified" Church which comprises all worship in a single social institution? Are the churches/cults of the various gods independent of each other and sometime even hostile? To what extent is insitutionalised (or private) religion a part of the political machine? Is religion subservient to the Imperium in all ways, or do they lie outside secular jurisdiction in some way? Could a god's church, or a god's priest, or a god him/herself prosecute the Emperor or a high-ranking state official for violating religious tenets?

I would be grateful for any details you fine gentlemen would care to share.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 23, 2015, 10:02:39 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;843809
Yeah, this was a section that Phil tossed in for Dave; Gary got some pet sections, too.

They were very, very, very rare in Phil's campaign. We got exactly one, in over a decade of gaming. It was the intelligent sword that Vrisa got, before we marched off to the Northwest Frontier; we never did figure out if the damn thing was an AI or an imprisoned demon. The former was favored as a theory, but nobody wanted to get close to the thing to find out. It bonded with her, she bonded with it, and we all avoided it like the plague, as it did have a mind of it's own. It was made of the ceramet material of the ancients, and had a energy field as an edge; it would cut through just about anything, and with Kathy's close-to-max S&G stats it made her a real threat to anything that annoyed us. Saved my bacon a few times, too.

We didn't see a lot of 'special loot', ever. Yes, there was some pretty cool stuff, but Phil tended not to hand out the goodies unless you really ran some pretty severe risks. I got a +4 +5 mace off some dead Bednjallan guy, which I still keep around for unwelcome guests, but I had to kill a heap of nasty critters to get it. It was one of the few game sessions where I used all of my spells, as there was a heap of killing that needed to be done.

Wholesale slaughter, that's me!

What are the details of this weapon? +10 Strike and damage? Even worse:D?

Also, I heartily approve this approach to special loot. I'm playing a game in Creation (the setting of Exalted) and am still to get any artifact, or even a special masterwork item. Despite having the money to buy them, I might add.
Then again, I also avoid them, because special weapons mark you out.

Quote from: Bren;843722

That was the expectation and assumption in our  1970s era groups. It's why we sometimes called the DM the Referee.

The GM is Referee in Traveler as well. I'd say it was expected in early gaming styles. (Which reminds me of the "somewhere along the path something went wrong" t-shirts).

Quote
Near as I can tell the objections are not about player agency, they are about PC power. Some people have a notion that the PCs should be the most important or powerful characters in the setting and that the game revolves solely around the PCs. (I’m guessing you’ll have a hard time grokking this as well because it is the antithesis of the way you played and run Tekumel.

Well, this is one reading. There's also one reading saying "players need to have input in what's happening to their characters". Which is, admittedly, kinda hard unless you're playing a narrativist system where such things are codified.

Either way, both of these are a "have a talk with the player(s), if you can't reach a compromise, you don't get (a) new player(s)".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 23, 2015, 01:33:23 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;843820
The GM is Referee in Traveler as well. I'd say it was expected in early gaming styles. (Which reminds me of the "somewhere along the path something went wrong" t-shirts).
It's a matter of taste. Some people like blueberry or elderberry flavored beer. Some like story games.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 23, 2015, 01:40:07 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;843820
Then again, I also avoid them, because special weapons mark you out.

I was under the impression that the "really good stuff" got claimed by "authorities".
Either your clan, your temple or the Imperium would contact you as soon as word got out you had such a thing and basically confiscate it/them.  

So, if you got something really powerful, basically it was "on loan". ;)

Am I wrong?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 23, 2015, 02:04:07 PM
That would make sense for a culture that isn't anywhere near as individually focused as are most modern industrialized societies.

The attitude of being part of a group and really seeing and believing that the group is more important then the individual is something I find difficult to grasp emotionally. Intellectually I know that was the case in many socieities, but personally I just don't feel it the way I expect the vast majority of people in those cultures felt it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 23, 2015, 02:16:03 PM
Quote from: Bren;843863
Intellectually I know that was the case in many societies, but personally I just don't feel it the way I expect the vast majority of people in those cultures felt it.


Can you emulate it? Would it be "fun"? Too much Role playing or the wrong kind?

I agree that it is a different mind set but thought that was part of its "charm".

What I don't yet know is where the group/individual balance should be.
That is one of the things I hope to determine through questioning.
At least as far as gaming is concerned as "The Real Tekumel" is something I won't be visiting.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 23, 2015, 03:11:12 PM
Quote from: Bren;843851
It's a matter of taste. Some people like blueberry or elderberry flavored beer. Some like story games.

Of course it's a matter of taste.

Quote from: Greentongue;843853
I was under the impression that the "really good stuff" got claimed by "authorities".
Either your clan, your temple or the Imperium would contact you as soon as word got out you had such a thing and basically confiscate it/them.  

So, if you got something really powerful, basically it was "on loan". ;)

Am I wrong?
=

We're talking about adventurers here. They can do lots of stuff with "loaned equipment", not to mention potentially "forgetting" to mention it:)!

Quote from: Bren;843863
That would make sense for a culture that isn't anywhere near as individually focused as are most modern industrialized societies.

The attitude of being part of a group and really seeing and believing that the group is more important then the individual is something I find difficult to grasp emotionally. Intellectually I know that was the case in many socieities, but personally I just don't feel it the way I expect the vast majority of people in those cultures felt it.

It isn't so long ago that it was the norm in our societies. And military organisations still expect it from the conscripts. Funny enough, they achieve it by putting them in conditions similar to the life of clans;).

Quote from: Greentongue;843867
Can you emulate it? Would it be "fun"? Too much Role playing or the wrong kind?

I agree that it is a different mind set but thought that was part of its "charm".

What I don't yet know is where the group/individual balance should be.
That is one of the things I hope to determine through questioning.
At least as far as gaming is concerned as "The Real Tekumel" is something I won't be visiting.
=

I'm not sure what "too much roleplaying" or "the wrong kind of roleplaying" might mean.
Personally, I'd expect it to differ from person to person, but those that don't put the interests of their clans and temples first would be punished at least socially.
Of course, since you're pretty much dead without your support network, and your friends and relatives would go along with you to meet Sarku, for many if not most people the math might be simple!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 23, 2015, 04:56:06 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;843867
Can you emulate it? Would it be "fun"? Too much Role playing or the wrong kind?
Yes. Yes. No. No.

I'm not arguing against playing people their PCs as being clan first, individual second (or maybe third). I'm just commenting that for me that is an intellectual exercise not one I can truly empathize with. I suspect that is true of many modern folks, though not all. Ironically, a lot of the folks who are most active and extreme in the social wars are closest to a old timey clan attitude with their nothing my side does is wrong, but everyone on the other side is awful because they do X, Y, and Z.

Quote
agree that it is a different mind set but thought that was part of its "charm".
Sure, I expect that in Glorantha or to an extent in Pendragon. A trait and passion system is one way to simulate that sort of behavior. Or players who understand and can act it out. I've just not found a lot of players that consistently do that.

Quote
What I don't yet know is where the group/individual balance should be.
That is one of the things I hope to determine through questioning.
At least as far as gaming is concerned as "The Real Tekumel" is something I won't be visiting.
=
For that Chirine's POV is much better informed that mine . I'm just speculating based on what I do know. So if we disagree, you should probably listen to Chirine not me. Unless my idea sounds cooler to you. Then make your Tekumel the way that appeals to you.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 23, 2015, 05:43:53 PM
Quote from: Premier;843819
I love reading this thread!

Let me ask you a question, and please keep in mind this is coming from someone who's not very well-versed in Tékumel lore:

What's the relationship between Church (Churches? Cults? Sects?) and State?

I know about the very basics about the Gods of Stability and Change, but how does all that exist on an institutional level? Is there a "Unified" Church which comprises all worship in a single social institution? Are the churches/cults of the various gods independent of each other and sometime even hostile? To what extent is insitutionalised (or private) religion a part of the political machine? Is religion subservient to the Imperium in all ways, or do they lie outside secular jurisdiction in some way? Could a god's church, or a god's priest, or a god him/herself prosecute the Emperor or a high-ranking state official for violating religious tenets?

I would be grateful for any details you fine gentlemen would care to share.


Thank you for joining the discussion! Let me have ago at this, if I may...

There is no 'unified church', at least in the Five Empires; some places do have a single Temple devoted to one deity, like the theocracy of the Temple of the Goddess Mretten out east in the Nyemesel Isles. All of the Temples are ruggedly independant, and depending on political and other factors can very either very hostile, very neutral, or very friendly to each other - sometimes all three at once, which is why PCs like me can lead lives of such rich complexity!

Because of the way the place works, at least in Phil's campaign, the Temples are part and parcel of the political landscape - this is why we have the Great Concordat, which is the treaty between the Temples and the governments that regulates political (and social and economic) life; Put simply, "no open fighting between anybody, or the government comes down on you like a ton of bricks." The attitude is pretty much that you can do what you want in the underworlds or out at sea, where there is no jurisdiction by anybody, and in the really remote 'uncivilized areas' - of which we also have lots!

The only area in which the Temples - as well as the clans, the legions, or any other group - is not subject to the government is in their own internal affairs; this is part of the Great Concordat. So, a Temple could indict somebody internally for something, and if it wasn't 'an Imperial matter', the Imperium would not care. Ditto for clans, by the way. There is no extra-territorial enclave or anything; the Imperium rules everything, subject to what will work in the context - the Imperium is a master of the art of the possible, and is very pragmatic.

None of the Temples would even think of trying to 'prosecute' the current sitter-upon-of-the-Petal-Throne for any sort of theological crime; it would be a very bad precedent, and all of the other Temples would gang up on the Temple to swat it down. The recourse, is civil war, and nobody starts that kind of thing unless the situation is really out of control.

There is no 'church and state' dichotomy; it's all one big interdependent society.

Does this help? Please feel free to keep asking questions, too!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 23, 2015, 05:48:18 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;843820
What are the details of this weapon? +10 Strike and damage? Even worse:D?


In EPT terms, yes; +10 +10 would be a good description. It was rolled up in S&G, which uses different stats, and I think it was a +50 to hit on the d100 base roll, and +100 - the old 'double damage' for what it did to you. Add in the attitude problem that the thing had, and we just were very careful. it got along just fine with Vrisa, but the rest of us wouldn't go anywhere near it even in the most dire emergency. It could be very 'persuasive' about wanting to be used, and as such was a menace to navigation just about all of the time.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 23, 2015, 05:55:03 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;843853
I was under the impression that the "really good stuff" got claimed by "authorities".
Either your clan, your temple or the Imperium would contact you as soon as word got out you had such a thing and basically confiscate it/them.  

So, if you got something really powerful, basically it was "on loan". ;)

Am I wrong?
=


No, you have it down just fine. It's a function of how long these social entities have been around; stuff accumulates in the treasuries and armories for centuries. It's considered 'polite' (read prudent) to offer the 'good stuff' to one's clan or temple; you gets lots of benefits for being such a great person, I assure you. Confiscation is very rare, as it sets a bad precedent; you always get something in return, like the time I 'donated' enough steel and iron (I got it on a trip to Blackmoor), enough for four legions' worth of armor, to Prince Mirusiya, and got made an Imperial Governor on the spot...

And the clans, the temples, and the Imperium will be happy to loan you stuff, if you are doing a job for them. Yes, one does have one's personal property, but it's customary that if anything happens to you, the good stuff goes back to your clan or temple - for use by the next adventurer...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 23, 2015, 10:51:48 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;843853
I was under the impression that the "really good stuff" got claimed by "authorities".
Either your clan, your temple or the Imperium would contact you as soon as word got out you had such a thing and basically confiscate it/them.  

So, if you got something really powerful, basically it was "on loan". ;)

Am I wrong?
=


Depends on who you are.

By the time I was a General of an Imperial Legion and a member of a high clan, I was GETTING stuff.  Handsome young hero winning great victories makes for good press.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 23, 2015, 10:52:57 PM
Quote from: Bren;843863
That would make sense for a culture that isn't anywhere near as individually focused as are most modern industrialized societies.

The attitude of being part of a group and really seeing and believing that the group is more important then the individual is something I find difficult to grasp emotionally. Intellectually I know that was the case in many socieities, but personally I just don't feel it the way I expect the vast majority of people in those cultures felt it.


It took me decades to get the hang of the pre-Enlightenment viewpoint.  But that was part of the whole fun of Tekumel, the discovery over years of just how different this place really was.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 24, 2015, 04:54:26 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;843945
It took me decades to get the hang of the pre-Enlightenment viewpoint.  But that was part of the whole fun of Tekumel, the discovery over years of just how different this place really was.


It wasn't easy to me either, but I got help from a professional historian when I started playing in his game. Then I remembered my own history lessons, and it all clicked.

I guess those values being explained to me in school at a relatively early age gave me a large advantage in understanding them, though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 24, 2015, 08:37:19 AM
In the picture of the map it looks like a dense, "World's Largest Mall".
Was this the feeling of the underground? That you were in a city with a ceiling?

Did the areas have segregation like the city above just not aligned to it?
This is an upper level, correct? Basically the connected basements.

Was there no city planning for drainage and sewage?

I had previously gotten the impression of vast distances between Places of Interest.
Is this true from being a labyrinth not from straight line distance?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 24, 2015, 09:05:16 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;844005
In the picture of the map it looks like a dense, "World's Largest Mall".
Was this the feeling of the underground? That you were in a city with a ceiling?

Did the areas have segregation like the city above just not aligned to it?
This is an upper level, correct? Basically the connected basements.

Was there no city planning for drainage and sewage?

I had previously gotten the impression of vast distances between Places of Interest.
Is this true from being a labyrinth not from straight line distance?
=


It is very dense in spots, and then you get what feels like acres of blank corridors. Some of the areas, like the Temple of Vimuhla or the Temple of Hry'y, feel like a domed city. Other spots are really 'tight', and feel really closed in.

This is the upper level of the Underworld proper. The basements of the temples, clan-houses, and palaces are a level above this; these are aligned to the surface city, and I think you are right about this level not really being aligned with the surface - I think it's off to the east, a little bit, and centered on the City of the Dead from the way some of the entrances are aligned with the Jakalla surface map.

City planning? Sanitation? What? You are kidding, right? :)

Seriously, that's the level above this one.  What rudimentary sewers and drains that there are are all in the high-status areas of the surface map, and in general drainage is down into the river and thence out to sea. There just isn't much thought give to it, except to keep important areas reasonably dry. The Foreigners' Quarter has little to none of any of this, and can only be described as disgusting at best. High-status foreigners all live elsewhere , in their legations, clan-houses, temples, or even a villa or palace.

I should mention that it's pretty common for rain to be collected in cisterns off the roofs of buildings; Phil kept telling us about the Mughal Shah who built himself a huge new capital city, and then discovered that the site had no reliable water supply! It was abandoned pretty quickly, and still stands empty and silent to this day - it's now a tourist attraction - and this is where Phil got a lot of his inspiration for Tekumel; India is littered with abandoned and ruined cities, palaces, fortresses, and temples.

(Oh! Fatehpur Sikri, that's the city I was thinking of!)

This map is all the 'good stuff' that players like to explore; the levels below are the intermediate level, and then the Garden of the Weeping Snows as the lowest level.

Yes, I'd say you're right; the map has some separation between the 'Points of Interest', but not as much as there might be - it's all labyrinth, so you really can't tell how far anything is from anything. I suspect Phil did that this way to give himself some options - he always had a 'back door' or 'Plan B' for future expansions or adventures.

The Tsolyani don't do maps like we do; they have what are pretty much 'conceptual' maps, where you know you have to go from A to B to C, but the details in between don't really matter and so are not on the map. When I think of the Jakalla Underworld, I 'know' where everything is on my mental map, but I don't really know what all the stuff in between the interesting stuff is...

Am I explaining this well enough? I worry...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 24, 2015, 02:10:06 PM
So, surface, then basements, then this map, then the levels below are the intermediate levels, and then the Garden of the Weeping Snows as the lowest level.

How are these levels transitioned? Do the wall embellishments give a sense of depth as you go further into places Man Was Never Meant To Be?
Like rock strata in the earth.

With the huge establishments as shown on the map and the lack of a Concordant in the Underworld, is this a multi-front battle zone?

Are there pass documents (and passwords/items) that can be forged? Secret routes that bypass outposts?
Storage for disguises? Supply and armory stashes? Neutral zones?

If a "war zone", are new characters recruited as replacements in this or is it ritualistic and static?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 24, 2015, 04:22:44 PM
It's however you want it to be.

On Phil' s version of Tekumel other than immediately under the temples And the tubeway car port, nobody much bothered with the underworld.  Grave robbing was low status.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 24, 2015, 06:52:42 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;844041
So, surface, then basements, then this map, then the levels below are the intermediate levels, and then the Garden of the Weeping Snows as the lowest level.

How are these levels transitioned? Do the wall embellishments give a sense of depth as you go further into places Man Was Never Meant To Be?
Like rock strata in the earth.

With the huge establishments as shown on the map and the lack of a Concordant in the Underworld, is this a multi-front battle zone?

Are there pass documents (and passwords/items) that can be forged? Secret routes that bypass outposts?
Storage for disguises? Supply and armory stashes? Neutral zones?

If a "war zone", are new characters recruited as replacements in this or is it ritualistic and static?
=


Yes. There is only one intermediate level, in Phil's maps. labelled "level Two" on the hard copy. There's also a tubeway car station, but that's below and part of the palace of Nyelmu, in the Garden of the Weeping Snows.

Yes. Each of the historical cultures of Tekumel has a  distinct visual style, and the deeper you go the older the style. Players can instantly recognize how deep they are, even if they can't read the inscriptions.

Yes. The place is full of mutually hostile and mutually allied factions.

Yes, to all of the above.

Again, yes. New people are always welcome. The 'furniture' might be static, but the occupants are always very active and a background against which one has adventures of all sorts.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 24, 2015, 06:55:54 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844066
It's however you want it to be.

On Phil' s version of Tekumel other than immediately under the temples And the tubeway car port, nobody much bothered with the underworld.  Grave robbing was low status.


Yeah, I'd say that was the case; after the very early days in his games, after we'd survived a few jaunts into the Underworld, we'd 'graduated' and spent most of our time up top. I did do a little Underworld exploration when I was in Hekellu, but that was as much for political purposes as anything else. Did find the most amazing things down there, though, including one of Phil's most secret and astonishing SNSs...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 24, 2015, 07:20:24 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844066
It's however you want it to be.

On Phil' s version of Tekumel other than immediately under the temples And the tubeway car port, nobody much bothered with the underworld.  Grave robbing was low status.


Clearly I'm missing some point.
There is this HUGE map and "nobody much bothered with the underworld"?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 24, 2015, 07:22:26 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;844094
Yeah, I'd say that was the case; after the very early days in his games, after we'd survived a few jaunts into the Underworld, we'd 'graduated' and spent most of our time up top.


With all the restrictions on conflict above ground, what did you do in the early games?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 24, 2015, 07:31:51 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;844099
Clearly I'm missing some point.
There is this HUGE map and "nobody much bothered with the underworld"?
=


Um, I'm not sure how to approach this. Please remember that we gamed with Phil every Thursday night, with only one or two nights off a year, for the better part of fifteen years. In my time with Phil, we spent maybe eight months of real time in the Jakalla Underworld at the beginning of my time with him; these adventures are in Volume One of my book, and take up about 40,000 words of a total 300,000 words in the whole book.

We did spend time down there, early on, but after a while we moved on to other things. We did go back very now and then, when Phil wanted to do a simple 'dungeon crawl', but he didn't like repetition; he like to explore his own world, as near as I can tell.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 24, 2015, 07:46:10 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;844100
With all the restrictions on conflict above ground, what did you do in the early games?
=


It was a combination of things. Imperial politics, getting the war with Yan Kor started, visiting the First Temple of Lord Vimuhla, exploring some of the Jakalla Underworld, long boat trips on the missuma river with hot Livyani courtesans, assaulting the palace of Bassa, King of the Black Ssu, exploring the tubeway car system, making out with hot princesses, visiting the South Polar Space Marine base, looking in on the planetary defense fortress on the little red moon, seeing the two hobbits in the Bey Su palace gardens, meeting some of the Undying Wizards like Nyelmu, Thomar, and Turshamu, revealing Prince Mirusya and Prince Surandano, getting poisoned by hot Livyani courtesans, sight-seeing, discovering a new non-human race under the town of Tu'umnra, being chased around the Temple of Sarku by hordes of Undead, that kind of thing.

You know, all those 'adventurer things' like what John Carter, Dejah Thoris, Fafhrd, and the Grey Mouser do. :)

Seriously; Tekumel is a pretty busy place. The locals get up to all sorts of larks, and I got dragged along on most of them. It was pretty hectic, and I was glad for the long boat trip with Harchar to the Southern Continent to invade the Shen settlements there; very relaxing and peaceful, aside from fighting the Hlyss nest-ship and Arneson running the boat into the Southern continent - he was a superb sailor, but a lousy navigator.

The first couple of years were pretty frantic, but after we got the war going it quieted down a fair bit. Battles, sieges, that kind of thing, an it all seemed pretty relaxing... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 24, 2015, 08:55:51 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;844099
Clearly I'm missing some point.
There is this HUGE map and "nobody much bothered with the underworld"?
=


After third or fourth level, yeah.  Or about a year or two.  And as Chirine said, we played for well over ten years almost constantly, and by the end we weren't even counting levels any more.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 24, 2015, 10:06:31 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844112
After third or fourth level, yeah.  Or about a year or two.  And as Chirine said, we played for well over ten years almost constantly, and by the end we weren't even counting levels any more.


One trip to the garden of the Weeping Snows was quite enough for me, thank you; Nyelmu has some really serious issues. I think we spent most of out time in the underworld in the top level, and those trips tended to me 'mission-based', being spawned by some intrigue going on up on the surface.

I'd agree with you; the last five to eight years out at Phil's, I think all we were doing was being our alter-egos. Game mechanics were really minimal.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 25, 2015, 05:06:13 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;844094
Yeah, I'd say that was the case; after the very early days in his games, after we'd survived a few jaunts into the Underworld, we'd 'graduated' and spent most of our time up top. I did do a little Underworld exploration when I was in Hekellu, but that was as much for political purposes as anything else. Did find the most amazing things down there, though, including one of Phil's most secret and astonishing SNSs...

What was the SNS:)?

Quote from: Greentongue;844099
Clearly I'm missing some point.
There is this HUGE map and "nobody much bothered with the underworld"?
=

My impression is that the people in this group liked producing maps. Whether they were going to be used or not.

Quote from: Greentongue;844100
With all the restrictions on conflict above ground, what did you do in the early games?
=

Restrictions only matter if they find out it was you.
Paying an assassin clan, for example, creates an intermediary that can't be questioned. There are other ways as well;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;844103
It was a combination of things. Imperial politics, getting the war with Yan Kor started, visiting the First Temple of Lord Vimuhla, exploring some of the Jakalla Underworld, long boat trips on the missuma river with hot Livyani courtesans, assaulting the palace of Bassa, King of the Black Ssu, exploring the tubeway car system, making out with hot princesses, visiting the South Polar Space Marine base, looking in on the planetary defense fortress on the little red moon, seeing the two hobbits in the Bey Su palace gardens, meeting some of the Undying Wizards like Nyelmu, Thomar, and Turshamu, revealing Prince Mirusya and Prince Surandano, getting poisoned by hot Livyani courtesans, sight-seeing, discovering a new non-human race under the town of Tu'umnra, being chased around the Temple of Sarku by hordes of Undead, that kind of thing.

You know, all those 'adventurer things' like what John Carter, Dejah Thoris, Fafhrd, and the Grey Mouser do. :)

Seriously; Tekumel is a pretty busy place. The locals get up to all sorts of larks, and I got dragged along on most of them. It was pretty hectic, and I was glad for the long boat trip with Harchar to the Southern Continent to invade the Shen settlements there; very relaxing and peaceful, aside from fighting the Hlyss nest-ship and Arneson running the boat into the Southern continent - he was a superb sailor, but a lousy navigator.

The first couple of years were pretty frantic, but after we got the war going it quieted down a fair bit. Battles, sieges, that kind of thing, an it all seemed pretty relaxing... :)

...and once again I'm feeling like I'm running games in the early tradition:D!
It's almost a recurring motive with me, and not just when it comes to games.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;844124
One trip to the garden of the Weeping Snows was quite enough for me, thank you; Nyelmu has some really serious issues. I think we spent most of out time in the underworld in the top level, and those trips tended to me 'mission-based', being spawned by some intrigue going on up on the surface.

I'd agree with you; the last five to eight years out at Phil's, I think all we were doing was being our alter-egos. Game mechanics were really minimal.

Nyelmu? Say it ain't so:p!

What were Nyelmu's issues;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 25, 2015, 09:11:58 AM
Were lineages within clans important?

Which clan were you in when you got married?  (husband or wife)
Were there restrictions on who you could marry?
Must you marry outside your clan for interbreeding reasons?

At what point did an issue go from personal to clan?

Were issues solved by ritual battles. The rules say that some are.
How common is this and could a proxy be used?
(personal as well as governmental)
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Premier on July 25, 2015, 11:58:40 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;843895
Thank you for joining the discussion! Let me have ago at this, if I may...


Thanks for your answer, chirine! Let me follow up with another religion-related question:

Where does Tékumel culture stand on the matter of polytheism vs. henotheism?

Would the average man or woman on the street worship, pray to, placate, sacrifice to or just take part in the church activities of all of the gods, always picking the one most relevant to the current situation (like in classical polytheism), or would they pick one as "this is the god I pray to" and stick with it (like in henotheism)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 25, 2015, 12:43:03 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;844182
What was the SNS:)?

What were Nyelmu's issues;)?


The original standards of the Legion of the Translucent Emerald, 32nd Imperial Medium Infantry - A Very Big Deal! - and the discovery that the Temple of Vimuhla has what could be considered 'Undead'. I got to meet and hang out with the original Elara Ebbridda, ancestor of the current consort of Emperor Mirusiya - Elara hi Vriddi, of Fasiltum. There are, in the Tsolyani view, four states of matter and energy; the original Elara is currently made up of the fifth. Still a hot babe, even after all these millenia, especially if you are into plasma...

Nyelmu is a raving nutcase, and was imprisoned by the Gods in the Garden of the Weeping Snows for being a really nasty and downright evil bit of work. His idea of fun is to have guests put to the torture, and then 'freezing' them in this torment for all eternity with a modified 'Excellent Ruby Eye'. This is the least of his poor social behaviors; the Gods are a pretty liberal and understanding bunch, but they - and the Pariah Deities! - all agreed that Nyelmu had to be locked up to protect not only Tekumel, but all the other 772 worlds in their pocket universes.

And that's the good news.:eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 25, 2015, 01:12:02 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;844208
Were lineages within clans important?

Which clan were you in when you got married?  (husband or wife)
Were there restrictions on who you could marry?
Must you marry outside your clan for interbreeding reasons?

At what point did an issue go from personal to clan?

Were issues solved by ritual battles. The rules say that some are.
How common is this and could a proxy be used?
(personal as well as governmental)
=

Oh, yes; the clans have people who do nothing but keep track of who is in what lineage and clan. Lineages are very important!

I had started out in Eye of the Flame, a very old but very minor clan in the Chakas. I was inducted into Iron Helm by Imperial order for political reasons; I'm the clan-brother of the Disposer of Meku.

Their Ladyships, by order of seniority, were:

Si - clan-lineage in the Nyemesel Islands, famous for telepaths;
Dark Fear, then Golden Sunburst - hi Chaishyani, as Serqu owed me a favor;
secret - Livyani, best not to ask, high-status
secret - Livyani, better not to ask, higher-status
Sea Blue - buccaneer, really don't want to ask!!!

So, that's a Senior Wife, a Junior Wife, a First Concubine, a Second Concubine, and a Senior Courtesan in the household, with something like - oh, now I gotta count them - fourteen adopted and natural children of varying ages. Fifteen, counting the collateral daughter. I rejoice in the title of Husband, and if you think I have any say in the way the household runs, you got another thing coming. I say "Yes, dear", and do what I'm told. It makes army life seem so much more restful, especially when the twins get rambunctious.

Generally, the only real restriction is against marrying one's siblings. Normally, one marries outside one's lineage, but there's no real reason to have to marry outside the clan; the clans are usually large enough so that this is not an issue of genetics. Marrying outside the clan does happen, especially as a form of alliance; one marries into a clan that has good relations with one's own.

Issues normally stay personal, if they are personal in nature. Thus, if you insult me personally, I will have the right to demand satisfaction, usually in the form of Shamtla money. However, if I deem you to be of too low a status to be worth taking offense, I will simply ignore you. If the issue is really dire, like you insulting Their Ladyships or the kids, I may have you thrashed by the Bearers or the Porters for being of low status and an ignoble churl. (Assuming that Their Ladyships left enough of you alive to appreciate the thrashing, of course.)

If I was a person of moderate means, I would report the matter to my clan, which would report the matter to your clan, and the two clans would negotiate a solution. You might be asked to apologize, and your clan pay a sum for Shamtla. If your clan refused to negotiate, then my clan and I may issue you and your clan a challenge to meet in the Arena, where we would fight it out on agreed-upon terms. (To first blood, to the death, etc., depending on the seriousness of the offense / dispute.)

And yes, proxy fighters, usually hired player-characters, are used when one or the other party is unable to fight for themselves. It's more noble that way, and very common.

Note that the 'government' has not been mentioned. As I've mentioned in previous posts, the Imperium does not get involved in many matters, unless there's politics or rebellion in the air. When that happens, the culprit gets a fast arrest, a quick trial, and a slow execution. One can't insult an Imperial Prince or Princess personally, only officially; and if one does that, the Prince or Prince can have one of their people kill or thrash the offender - hence my being asked (not ordered!) to deal with that young Vriddi fool in Fasiltum.

[EDIT: One does not insult the Emperor; that's treated as treason, and gets the offender an impalement. Princes and Princesses do not socially recognize insults officially, as that's also treason and gets the offender's clan and family into real trouble; so, they keep it unofficial, and have the offender thrashed (for low-status people) or killed by their champion (for high-status people).

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 25, 2015, 01:25:12 PM
Quote from: Premier;844247
Thanks for your answer, chirine! Let me follow up with another religion-related question:

Where does Tékumel culture stand on the matter of polytheism vs. henotheism?

Would the average man or woman on the street worship, pray to, placate, sacrifice to or just take part in the church activities of all of the gods, always picking the one most relevant to the current situation (like in classical polytheism), or would they pick one as "this is the god I pray to" and stick with it (like in henotheism)?


Sure thing; ask away!

There isn't a 'vs.' to this. Generally one worships one deity, based on personal belief, clan traditions, and sometimes geographical location. However, one also makes sure to make donations to other deities as might be needed; a devout worshipper of Lord Hry'y often visits the Temple of Avanthe to seek the Goddess's aid in pregnancy, for example, and warriors and soldiers from the Temples of Karakan, Chegarra, Vimhula, and Chiteng all make sure to do something nice for Lord Ketengu and Lady Avanthe for their help if one gets wounded.

The 'chaos/stabiity' 'dividing line' is very porous and very permeable. All of the 'theisms' are represented in and many and diverse cultures of Tekumel. For example, the Nlyss of Malchairan are very much Vimuhla worshippers, while the inhabitants of the Nyemesel Islands are all worshippers of the Goddess Mretten. In the Five Empires, it's much more diverse, with one having one's temple and also making sure that all bets are covered...

One thing to remember is that there are no 'atheists' on Tekumel. The Gods are real and active - they are not 'gods' in the way we use the term here on this planet, but rather highly-advanced beings that take an occasional interest in what the ants do in the ant farm...

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 25, 2015, 01:36:00 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;844271
I rejoice in the title of Husband, and if you think I have any say in the way the household runs, you got another thing coming. I say "Yes, dear", and do what I'm told. It makes army life seem so much more restful, especially when the twins get rambunctious.


This made me laugh out loud.  It's also quite true.  I may be Kerdudalikoi Korunme Mnashu hi Chaishyani of the Legion of Mnashu of Thri'il out on the battlefield and have the power of absolute life and death for my troops and know that any order I give will be instantly obeyed...

... but in the clan house I'm one of the swarms of young-married clan sons who are sent out on their various careers to enhance the status of the clan, and chivvied around, shooed out of the kitchen, and generally ignored most of the time at home.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 25, 2015, 01:40:04 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844291
This made me laugh out loud.  It's also quite true.  I may be Kerdudalikoi Korunme Mnashu hi Chaishyani of the Legion of Mnashu of Thri'il out on the battlefield and have the power of absolute life and death for my troops and know that any order I give will be instantly obeyed...

... but in the clan house I'm one of the swarms of young-married clan sons who are sent out on their various careers to enhance the status of the clan, and chivvied around, shooed out of the kitchen, and generally ignored most of the time at home.


Yep; ain't it the truth!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 25, 2015, 01:54:56 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;844261
The original standards of the Legion of the Translucent Emerald, 32nd Imperial Medium Infantry - A Very Big Deal! - and the discovery that the Temple of Vimuhla has what could be considered 'Undead'. I got to meet and hang out with the original Elara Ebbridda, ancestor of the current consort of Emperor Mirusiya - Elara hi Vriddi, of Fasiltum. There are, in the Tsolyani view, four states of matter and energy; the original Elara is currently made up of the fifth. Still a hot babe, even after all these millenia, especially if you are into plasma...

Nyelmu is a raving nutcase, and was imprisoned by the Gods in the Garden of the Weeping Snows for being a really nasty and downright evil bit of work. His idea of fun is to have guests put to the torture, and then 'freezing' them in this torment for all eternity with a modified 'Excellent Ruby Eye'. This is the least of his poor social behaviors; the Gods are a pretty liberal and understanding bunch, but they - and the Pariah Deities! - all agreed that Nyelmu had to be locked up to protect not only Tekumel, but all the other 772 worlds in their pocket universes.

And that's the good news.:eek:

For some reason, that post has me smiling wickedly:)!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;844271

Generally, the only real restriction is against marrying one's siblings. Normally, one marries outside one's lineage, but there's no real reason to have to marry outside the clan; the clans are usually large enough so that this is not an issue of genetics. Marrying outside the clan does happen, especially as a form of alliance; one marries into a clan that has good relations with one's own.

This is one area where I've decided that My Tekumel Varies. Marrying a clan relative is forbidden. Well, at least in Livyanu, I mean!
I mean, what's better for drama than not being able to marry your childhood sweetheart;)?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;844283
Sure thing; ask away!

There isn't a 'vs.' to this. Generally one worships one deity, based on personal belief, clan traditions, and sometimes geographical location. However, one also makes sure to make donations to other deities as might be needed; a devout worshipper of Lord Hry'y often visits the Temple of Avanthe to seek the Goddess's aid in pregnancy, for example, and warriors and soldiers from the Temples of Karakan, Chegarra, Vimhula, and Chiteng all make sure to do something nice for Lord Ketengu and Lady Avanthe for their help if one gets wounded.

The 'chaos/stabiity' 'dividing line' is very porous and very permeable. All of the 'theisms' are represented in and many and diverse cultures of Tekumel. For example, the Nlyss of Malchairan are very much Vimuhla worshippers, while the inhabitants of the Nyemesel Islands are all worshippers of the Goddess Mretten. In the Five Empires, it's much more diverse, with one having one's temple and also making sure that all bets are covered...

One thing to remember is that there are no 'atheists' on Tekumel. The Gods are real and active - they are not 'gods' in the way we use the term here on this planet, but rather highly-advanced beings that take an occasional interest in what the ants do in the ant farm...

Does this help?

And here I had remained with the impression that Tekumel has pure henoteism, and decided to change it.
The change is that you'd have your "traditional" god or goddess, and then cover all the bases:p!
Yeah, I can't claim originality on that account, really:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 25, 2015, 03:22:49 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;844297

This is one area where I've decided that My Tekumel Varies. Marrying a clan relative is forbidden. Well, at least in Livyanu, I mean!
I mean, what's better for drama than not being able to marry your childhood sweetheart;)?


And here I had remained with the impression that Tekumel has pure henoteism, and decided to change it.
The change is that you'd have your "traditional" god or goddess, and then cover all the bases:p!
Yeah, I can't claim originality on that account, really:D!


Actually, we don't know that Your Tekumel Varies; it's Livyanu, after all, where the locals don't tell their left hands what their right hands are doing, let alone share anything with us foreigners. It would not surprise me that you have penetrated to the heart of the mystery, though...

Nope; you got it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 25, 2015, 03:51:06 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;844320
Actually, we don't know that Your Tekumel Varies; it's Livyanu, after all, where the locals don't tell their left hands what their right hands are doing, let alone share anything with us foreigners. It would not surprise me that you have penetrated to the heart of the mystery, though...

Nope; you got it.

Is that why they love dual-wielding:D?

Also, yeah, that's part of why I chose to put my game in Livyanu. I can always change stuff back once we reach Jakalla:).
For all my faults, I've never thought I am above such things as getting setting details wrong the first time I play a new setting.

I got it while thinking I'm changing it. That confirms that it's a setting that follows a logic I can relate to, I guess;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 25, 2015, 04:09:15 PM
Are there bathhouses and water closets for public use?
When on the street do people use the closest wall or allyway to releave themselves?

Are perfumes and scented oils popular?
How often do people bath?

Are there food vendors on the streets or only clan house that sspecialize in specific foods and drinks?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 25, 2015, 04:35:23 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;844325
Are there bathhouses and water closets for public use?
When on the street do people use the closest wall or allyway to releave themselves?

Are perfumes and scented oils popular?
How often do people bath?

Are there food vendors on the streets or only clan house that sspecialize in specific foods and drinks?
=

"It depends."

Tsolyanu is an empire of millions of people, millions of acres, and many cities, towns, and villages.  Look long enough and far enough and you'll find damn near anything.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 25, 2015, 05:31:16 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844329
"It depends."

Tsolyanu is an empire of millions of people, millions of acres, and many cities, towns, and villages.  Look long enough and far enough and you'll find damn near anything.

I specifically meant Jakalla since that is the traditional starting place.

On a separate note ... how are people named? Typically in societies where the family is more important than the individual the family name is given first.
In EPT shouldn't it be Clan, Family, then Given name?
The rule book doesn't do this so the importance of Clan over individual is not as front and center as later sources emphasize.

In your opinion wouldn't this be a simple way to reinforce that Clan comes First?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 25, 2015, 06:40:32 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;844324
Is that why they love dual-wielding:D?

Also, yeah, that's part of why I chose to put my game in Livyanu. I can always change stuff back once we reach Jakalla:).
For all my faults, I've never thought I am above such things as getting setting details wrong the first time I play a new setting.

I got it while thinking I'm changing it. That confirms that it's a setting that follows a logic I can relate to, I guess;).


See? You too can do Tekumel!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 25, 2015, 06:46:06 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;844355
See? You too can do Tekumel!!! :)


I've always known that I can:).
I'm trying to get as good a picture of how you were doing it, though, because I believe your experience and MAR Barker's level of expertise to be valuable.
Other than that, I've long since said that the setting becomes mine the moment I start Refereeing, and nothing short of Luck Points can change that even for a moment;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 25, 2015, 07:08:51 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;844325
Are there bathhouses and water closets for public use?
When on the street do people use the closest wall or allyway to releave themselves?

Are perfumes and scented oils popular?
How often do people bath?

Are there food vendors on the streets or only clan house that sspecialize in specific foods and drinks?
=



Let's see. Waterclosets yes, as poop is a resource that isn't wasted - fertilizer, you know. Bathhouses, no, as you'd do that in your clan house or at the guest house you're staying at. Or at a friend's or at your temple.

When they are in the Foreigners' Quarter, or in the Underworld. Or off the side of the ship - downwind side, please - or out in the country. Or anywhere, any time, if you're an Ahoggya. (Which is why they don't get invited to parties.)

Yes and yes. the richer and more high-status you are, the more you bathe. When I had my new palace renovated, I had the Tinaliya install a very fancy bathroom for Their Ladyships (and for me, so I can soak my back - old injury) which is very nice, and one of these days I'll figure out what all the controls do. (Hire Tinaliya as plumbers at your own risk, although the results do provide a lot of laughs.)

Yes, to both, but as the Glorious General says it depends on the location and the society's context. In Jakalla (and I know I'm anticipating your later post here) you do find street vendors in the Foreigners' Quarter. Nobody with any pretension to class eats at them. The richer parts of town, no, you don't find them. There are lots of 'food' clans, all of which specialize in something; think Victorian tradesmen. There are also a couple of 'provisioning' clans, which specialize in getting ships and caravans supplied with foodstuff that will last for quite a while; Harchar's Purser, "Hardtack", is a member of one of these clans. Generally, 'classy people' deal with the reputable clans. (Less chance of food poisoning, that way.) These clans also have 'storefronts' where they will show off and sell their wares, in the hope of attracting your custom. Phil used to have a list of all the best places to eat in India, which he used in Tekumel, and we had a lot of fun negotiating food contracts over brunch with the clan elders...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Planet Algol on July 25, 2015, 07:39:39 PM
I'm interested in hearing what you know about the silver suits and the pariah deities.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 25, 2015, 07:54:42 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;844338
I specifically meant Jakalla since that is the traditional starting place.

On a separate note ... how are people named? Typically in societies where the family is more important than the individual the family name is given first.
In EPT shouldn't it be Clan, Family, then Given name?
The rule book doesn't do this so the importance of Clan over individual is not as front and center as later sources emphasize.

In your opinion wouldn't this be a simple way to reinforce that Clan comes First?
=


See my previous post on food... :)

Names - here we go!!! :)

Generally, in the Five Empires it's 'personal', 'lineage', and 'clan'. In the Nyemsel Islands, it's always 'lineage/clan' (they are the same thing, there) first, followed by the personal name; hence, Lord Chirine ba Kal of the Clan of the Iron Helm, and Lady Si N'te. Titles and positions get tacked on at the end of the clan name; the honorific 'lord/lady' title is at the beginning, as are military and temple rank titles.

In EPT / Tekumel, as Phil did it, one was never called 'personal name' by anyone but the closest of personal friends or clan-siblings. One was always introduced as 'rank' (if any) 'personal' 'lineage' 'clan', which told the person you were meeting just who you were and where you were in society. Also, you are wearing your clan's unique glyph, which tell anyone looking at you what your family is. You often have your temple glyph displayed as well; normally, you can be identified by your dress and accessories at a distance, which tell on-looker what family / clan you are from.

The Tsolyani concept of the family is a little different from ours. I am part of a lineage (an obscure one, admittedly!), and I have a large and extended 'family' of co-husbands, co-wives, co-children, and hordes of co-cousins. Some are part of my lineage, some are not; some are part of my clan, some are not. Let's look at my teen-aged daughter Elara (her mother is classically-minded) as an example. Elara was born out of an encounter with her mother while the party was staying in their village; the custom of that place, as they are mostly Avanthe worshippers, is for a guest to lie with the village headman's wife for a night in return for the village's hospitality. I got 'volunteered' by the party, and Elara came along nine months later. We all sat around the village working out the timing, (and since the kid looks like me but better) and so I acknowledged her as my child. Due to my frequent travels, she has been raised in the village by her mother and father - I have been 'adopted' as a co-husband. After I got married, Their Ladyships all adopted her themselves, which resulted in her having - I need to take a deep breath, here, and use all my fingers and toes to get this right - a total of:

Two fathers; three mothers; three 'aunties'; and eleven co-siblngs, consisting of eight girls and five boys, all of different ages. Three of this mob, the twins and Elara, are 'mine' by genetics; the rest are my adopted kids. (And that's just from 'my side' of the family.) On her mother's side, she's got a whole bunch more siblings, all of which are considered cousins to the kids I have. (The reverse is also true, by the way.) I am, to my great delight, their "Uncle Chirine".

I also have heaps of my own lineage- and clan-cousins, like my cousin Tsomukh ba Kal over at the Temple of Thumis, where she's a Scholar-Priestess specializing in astronomy.

This why you usually have a majordomo to keep it all straight, or the elders of the clan or village. And, if I may quote my large - and lethal! - collection of kids: "She's our sister. Got a problem with that, Noble Sir?"

Inside the family quarters, there is no rank or title; 'seniority' is by generation, with honorifics like 'poppa', 'momma', 'uncle', 'auntie', and 'cousin' as examples. out in public, it's all three names for introductions, and the honorific for regular use. I am normally addressed as 'Sir' by my troops, with an occasional 'Lord' or 'Commander' thrown in for variety; Their Ladyships address me as 'Husband', and the older kids as appropriate to the situation - some of them are also my officers. The younger kids try to use the right honorific, but usually it's "Oi! Poppa!" - followed by a request to get the keys to the palanquin for the evening...

Has any of this helped? I can see where you're coming from, but Phil tended to use the forms he'd learned in South Asia. Hence all of the above; I've described this to people from there, and they think it's all perfectly normal - "Just like we do at home!", gushed one matronly 'Auntie' I was explaining Tekumel to at Phil's memorial event...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 26, 2015, 12:51:40 AM
Quote from: Planet Algol;844367
I'm interested in hearing what you know about the silver suits and the pariah deities.


I missed your question earlier, but here I am - fashionably late, as always... :)

The Silver Suits are one of those mysteries that came in in the late 1980s and early 1990s, after Somebody - like the Mu'uglavyani - started screwing around with inter-planar travel. They attracted a lot of attention in the wrong places Somewhere Out There, and these humanoids in silver-colored metallic suits started showing up and raiding Tekumel. You can't find out what's in the suit; the suit self-destructs if the wearer is killed or mortally wounded. The suit seems, to us SF fans of a certain age, some sort of battle armor; and no, it ain't the cap troopers. It's somebody else entirely, folks that you really don't want to mess with. They usually drop in through a Nexus Point, shoot the place up and steal any magical items that they can get their hand on. They don't seem interested in anything else, in my experience.

And as to who or what they are, I happen to know - on both level that Phil laid this one out; it's one of The Big Secrets Of Tekumel (pat. pend.) and Phil left some pretty juicy hints about it in his works. It's one of his 'in-jokes' that you will get, if you think long and hard, and I'll give you a little hint: I am allied with their ancient foes, who wear interesting jewelry.

The Pariah Gods are another kettle of fish entirely. They oppose the classic Twenty of Pavar, and are considered such big poopie-butts by the Twenty that they are Not Welcome in the Five Empires. They do have temples and worshippers elsewhere on Tekumel, such as in the empire on the other side of the planet from us. (Why, yes, I have been there; Lord Fu Hsi is from there, too.) They oppose what the Twenty stand for, and fight to restore their dominion over the planet.

In short, they are also a set of very-highly advanced beings who like to meddle in the affairs of us ants in the ant farm. Please see also the "Book of Ebon Bindings", which has a lot more by Phil on this subject. I mean, I could write a very long essay on the subject; it's something we fought against for a decade. There's also another Big Secret Of Tekumel (pat. pend.) with them as well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 26, 2015, 02:26:31 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;844414
I am allied with their ancient foes, who wear interesting jewelry.


"beams, rods, cones, stilettos, icepicks, corkscrews, knives, forks, and spoons of energy raved against the screens of the Dentless."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: TAFMSV on July 26, 2015, 03:27:24 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844515
"beams, rods, cones, stilettos, icepicks, corkscrews, knives, forks, and spoons of energy raved against the screens of the Dentless."


Oh, no way!!  Wow!

That potentially speaks volumes.  Is there any substantial bridge between that and the deep history of the planet, or is it strictly alternate reality?

I suppose it's unlikely, considering the ethnicity of "Civilization" compared to Barker's description of Earth.  Maybe it's all ancient history...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 26, 2015, 05:27:26 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844515
"beams, rods, cones, stilettos, icepicks, corkscrews, knives, forks, and spoons of energy raved against the screens of the Dentless."


Quote from: TAFMSV;844527
Oh, no way!!  Wow!

That potentially speaks volumes.  Is there any substantial bridge between that and the deep history of the planet, or is it strictly alternate reality?

I suppose it's unlikely, considering the ethnicity of "Civilization" compared to Barker's description of Earth.  Maybe it's all ancient history...


I suspect that's simply some reference that's not familiar to me.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 26, 2015, 06:05:19 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;844536
I suspect that's simply some reference that's not familiar to me.
Unless I miss my guess, he's referring to the Dauntless a space dreadnaught from the E.E. "Doc" Smith Lensman space opera series from around the 1930s while satirizing Smith's sometimes overblown descriptions of the various ray projectors used for space battles.

Sometimes if you are old enough and still have at least some of your marbles, you don't even need the Internet to answer trivia questions.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Planet Algol on July 26, 2015, 06:11:57 PM
That's what I thought that jewelry reference was to!

Looks like I'm gonna read the lensmen series to get to the bottom of the silver suits.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: TAFMSV on July 26, 2015, 06:41:04 PM
Yeah.  I'm not about to start thinking of Tekumel as a Lensman spin-off, or anything like that, but if there was a shared "Doc" Smith fantasy tech vibe informing the group's ideas about the ancients or extraplanar business, it helps my understanding.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 26, 2015, 07:03:12 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;844536
I suspect that's simply some reference that's not familiar to me.


* sob *




  Gosh, if only people had computing machines available, and somebody connected them into some sort of vast world wide computer web... you could goggle at things on this web to find out about them...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 26, 2015, 07:59:21 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844515
"beams, rods, cones, stilettos, icepicks, corkscrews, knives, forks, and spoons of energy raved against the screens of the Dentless."


"Ah! You are an educated person!" - Klingon officer, "How Much for Just The Planet", by John M. Ford

:)

Three of us 'got it', that night; Ken Fletcher, Kathy Marshall, and Yours Truly; you and Jean had not been able to be there, that session, and I think Phil mourned not being able to see the look on your face.

He loved his 'in-jokes', and lovingly prepared them over literally years to spring on people. This was, in my biased opinion, one of the very best ever!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 26, 2015, 08:10:16 PM
Quote from: TAFMSV;844527
Oh, no way!!  Wow!

That potentially speaks volumes.  Is there any substantial bridge between that and the deep history of the planet, or is it strictly alternate reality?

I suppose it's unlikely, considering the ethnicity of "Civilization" compared to Barker's description of Earth.  Maybe it's all ancient history...

Yes, WOW! I don't know if Phil had any really substantial connection planned; he played his cards very close to his chest about things like this; I found nothing in his files on this subject, except the 'Blue Room' posts on the subject, so all I have are my game session notes and the audio tapes we made of game sessions in the late 1980s.

Please keep in mind that the 'shared universe' concept in F/SF fiction back in the time when Tekumel was first chronicled was a very common one. Howard's heroes battle Lovecraft's Ancient Evils, for example, and Phil - Phillip Barker, fan in good standing with his club, "The Nameless Ones", was a very active part of this vibrant scene.

Phil was at pains to remind all of us that there are 772 other worlds trapped in pocket universes. We visited a few of them: places like Grey Hawk, Black Moor, and Barsoom. These other worlds, in turn, visited us; some stayed, like the two hobbits milking their expense accounts in Bey Sy, or a man-at-arms named Robert of Barthesville. Others just visit from time to time, causing trouble, getting into adventures, and generally doing what we did in their shared worlds.

Welcome to the Tekumel Gronan and I lived in for well over a decade. It's a very different place then people expect, I think... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 26, 2015, 08:17:48 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;844536
I suspect that's simply some reference that's not familiar to me.


May I suggest the source of the original quote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backstage_Lensman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backstage_Lensman)

Phil was a friend of one Dr. Edward E. Smith, better known in past years as E. E. 'Doc' Smith, author of the 'space opera' "Lensman" series:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lensman_series (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lensman_series)

Phil knew a lot of very interesting people from the early days of F/SF fandom; Jack Vance, for one. To say that they had an influence on his creation would be an understatement.

Tekumel is very much a product of a time and place that we can now only glimpse through the moldering pages of fanzines, and curled-up photos of these people having fun at what they called 'conventions'. We followed in their footsteps, and marveled at their creations.

I still do.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 26, 2015, 08:19:30 PM
Quote from: TAFMSV;844551
Yeah.  I'm not about to start thinking of Tekumel as a Lensman spin-off, or anything like that, but if there was a shared "Doc" Smith fantasy tech vibe informing the group's ideas about the ancients or extraplanar business, it helps my understanding.


You have it, exactly. Not a spin-off, but indeed a shared vibe. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 26, 2015, 08:31:04 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844556
* sob *
  Gosh, if only people had computing machines available, and somebody connected them into some sort of vast world wide computer web... you could goggle at things on this web to find out about them...

He gets a pass, Glorious General; he's in Europe, and I don't think Phil ever read any of the "Perry Rodan" series. :)

And just for you:

(http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a558/chirinebakal/DSC00038_zpsi4vkdtov.jpg)

I have a house full of this kind of thing, folks, I've been around for a while, and I've led a very active and interesting life. Kind of like a player-character I know, actually... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 26, 2015, 08:39:12 PM
Doesn't anyone want to talk about my kids? I love to talk about my kids. I am very proud of my kids, and I'll be happy to talk about them for pages and pages and pages... :)

Seriously; I am having a lot of fun with this thread, and I hope I'm able to convey some sense of the sheer fun and terror we had with Phil... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 26, 2015, 08:45:27 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;844577
He gets a pass, Glorious General; he's in Europe, and I don't think Phil ever read any of the "Perry Rodan" series. :)


Perhaps, but I think Google still functions in Europe.  If you google that phrase I quoted the first entry is the wiki page for Backstage Lensman.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;844577

And just for you:

(http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a558/chirinebakal/DSC00038_zpsi4vkdtov.jpg)

I have a house full of this kind of thing, folks, I've been around for a while, and I've led a very active and interesting life. Kind of like a player-character I know, actually... :)


Clear Ether, Lensman!:D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 26, 2015, 08:48:43 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844587
Perhaps, but I think Google still functions in Europe.  If you google that phrase I quoted the first entry is the wiki page for Backstage Lensman.

Clear Ether, Lensman!:D


Yep, sent him the link.

Hey, do you know where Origo left the pantosynclastic infandibulator? I had thought he's left it next to the crogulator, but maybe he loaned it to that Priestess of Ksarul you hang out with... :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 26, 2015, 08:51:21 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;844570
You have it, exactly. Not a spin-off, but indeed a shared vibe. :)

Dear Karakan, yes.  Once upon a time referring to another author's work was considered a complement, not "theft of intellectual property."

Like Poul Anderson's "Old Phoenix Inn" or the scene at the end of Number of the Beast.

Lord, I miss that world.

"When did sitting around a table drinking beer with friends and pretending to be an elf get to be such SERIOUS BUSINESS?" -- Me, interviewed for "Dungeons & Dragons: A Documentary" Jan. 2012, NYC
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 26, 2015, 08:52:39 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;844588
Hey, do you know where Origo left the pantosynclastic infandibulator? I had thought he's left it next to the crogulator, but maybe he loaned it to that Priestess of Ksarul you hang out with... :D


* ZOT! *
* POOF! *
"AIEEEE!"


... found him....
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 26, 2015, 08:56:42 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844589
Dear Karakan, yes.  Once upon a time referring to another author's work was considered a complement, not "theft of intellectual property."

Like Poul Anderson's "Old Phoenix Inn" or the scene at the end of Number of the Beast.

Lord, I miss that world.

"When did sitting around a table drinking beer with friends and pretending to be an elf get to be such SERIOUS BUSINESS?" -- Me, interviewed for "Dungeons & Dragons: A Documentary" Jan. 2012, NYC


Sweet Mother of God, ain't it the truth. I can't even begin to count the number of times we sat in the bar at a convention watching The Big Name Authors swapping ideas, exchanging characters and worlds at the drop of a martini olive. Game conventions, too, not just F/SF conventions.

Had much the same experience when i got interviewed for a different documentary. The look on the interviewer's face when I described those days was simply priceless - he'd had no idea whatsoever what life was like for you and I.

Must go for the night - this old dinosaur has a swamp to wallow in... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 26, 2015, 09:01:48 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844591
* ZOT! *
* POOF! *
"AIEEEE!"


... found him....


Actual dialog.

"Cripes, not again."

Folks, I used to carry around a little whisk broom and a little dustpan in my 'adventurer's kit' for just this sort of situation. You'd sweep up the ashes of the dear departed player-character, pour the ashes into the Helmet of the Three Pointed Star, push the button, and hope for the best.

Phil, not missing any chance for possible humor, would have the deceased player roll for being reconstituted and revivified. The chances were all based on the dexterity of the player (usually me) sweeping the ashes up, and trying not to get 'other substances' mixed in with the ashes...

[Edit: We got a bazillion of these stories, folks. Keep those questions coming, and we'll tell them to you.. :)]
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 26, 2015, 09:21:51 PM
Quote from: Bren;844544
Unless I miss my guess, he's referring to the Dauntless a space dreadnaught from the E.E. "Doc" Smith Lensman space opera series from around the 1930s while satirizing Smith's sometimes overblown descriptions of the various ray projectors used for space battles.

Sometimes if you are old enough and still have at least some of your marbles, you don't even need the Internet to answer trivia questions.


Quote from: Planet Algol;844546
That's what I thought that jewelry reference was to!

Looks like I'm gonna read the lensmen series to get to the bottom of the silver suits.


Quote from: TAFMSV;844551
Yeah.  I'm not about to start thinking of Tekumel as a Lensman spin-off, or anything like that, but if there was a shared "Doc" Smith fantasy tech vibe informing the group's ideas about the ancients or extraplanar business, it helps my understanding.


Quote from: chirine ba kal;844569
May I suggest the source of the original quote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backstage_Lensman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backstage_Lensman)

Phil was a friend of one Dr. Edward E. Smith, better known in past years as E. E. 'Doc' Smith, author of the 'space opera' "Lensman" series:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lensman_series (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lensman_series)

Phil knew a lot of very interesting people from the early days of F/SF fandom; Jack Vance, for one. To say that they had an influence on his creation would be an understatement.

Tekumel is very much a product of a time and place that we can now only glimpse through the moldering pages of fanzines, and curled-up photos of these people having fun at what they called 'conventions'. We followed in their footsteps, and marveled at their creations.

I still do.

Thank you to everybody that answered. I googled "Dentless", but got lots of ads for dentists, and decided it's one of the references that got hopelessly tangled due to a new term appearing...:)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844556
* sob *

  Gosh, if only people had computing machines available, and somebody connected them into some sort of vast world wide computer web... you could goggle at things on this web to find out about them...

You could. And you could find your search of Google terms isn't getting you anything related to SF, games, or anything of the sort.
You're probably a better sort than me* for deciding to not ask for clarification in an "Ask Me Anything" thread. Be happy.

*What's the goddamn sarcasm font on this board?
Quote from: chirine ba kal;844564
"Ah! You are an educated person!" - Klingon officer, "How Much for Just The Planet", by John M. Ford

:)

Three of us 'got it', that night; Ken Fletcher, Kathy Marshall, and Yours Truly; you and Jean had not been able to be there, that session, and I think Phil mourned not being able to see the look on your face.

He loved his 'in-jokes', and lovingly prepared them over literally years to spring on people. This was, in my biased opinion, one of the very best ever!

Years? That's meticulous planning if I've ever seen it...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;844568
Yes, WOW! I don't know if Phil had any really substantial connection planned; he played his cards very close to his chest about things like this; I found nothing in his files on this subject, except the 'Blue Room' posts on the subject, so all I have are my game session notes and the audio tapes we made of game sessions in the late 1980s.

Please keep in mind that the 'shared universe' concept in F/SF fiction back in the time when Tekumel was first chronicled was a very common one. Howard's heroes battle Lovecraft's Ancient Evils, for example, and Phil - Phillip Barker, fan in good standing with his club, "The Nameless Ones", was a very active part of this vibrant scene.

Phil was at pains to remind all of us that there are 772 other worlds trapped in pocket universes. We visited a few of them: places like Grey Hawk, Black Moor, and Barsoom. These other worlds, in turn, visited us; some stayed, like the two hobbits milking their expense accounts in Bey Sy, or a man-at-arms named Robert of Barthesville. Others just visit from time to time, causing trouble, getting into adventures, and generally doing what we did in their shared worlds.

Welcome to the Tekumel Gronan and I lived in for well over a decade. It's a very different place then people expect, I think... :)

Well, I was at a SF/Fantasy convention in 2004 (Eurocon, if the name means anything to anyone else). Much the same thing was going on, though they mostly exchanged ideas...;)
So the idea is still alive, except it's working around a much more stringent IP law.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;844585
Doesn't anyone want to talk about my kids? I love to talk about my kids. I am very proud of my kids, and I'll be happy to talk about them for pages and pages and pages... :)

Seriously; I am having a lot of fun with this thread, and I hope I'm able to convey some sense of the sheer fun and terror we had with Phil... :)

Well, I'm sensing some interesting stories here...
Tell me about the twins:D!
Also, how many natural children does Chirine have?

Follow-up question, you listed a big family with two co-wives and several "aunties". Did you have any co-husbands?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;844592
Sweet Mother of God, ain't it the truth. I can't even begin to count the number of times we sat in the bar at a convention watching The Big Name Authors swapping ideas, exchanging characters and worlds at the drop of a martini olive. Game conventions, too, not just F/SF conventions.

Had much the same experience when i got interviewed for a different documentary. The look on the interviewer's face when I described those days was simply priceless - he'd had no idea whatsoever what life was like for you and I.

Must go for the night - this old dinosaur has a swamp to wallow in... :)

It's still the same, or at least it looked like it last I checked.
I haven't been to a convention in years, though, not counting the mini-conventions for RPGs we've been organising.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 26, 2015, 09:33:03 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;844603

You could. And you could find your search of Google terms isn't getting you anything related to SF, games, or anything of the sort.
You're probably a better sort than me* for deciding to not ask for clarification in an "Ask Me Anything" thread. Be happy.


If you take the phrase I quoted,

"beams, rods, cones, stilettos, icepicks, corkscrews, knives, forks, and spoons of energy raved against the screens of the Dentless."

and enter it in its entirety into Google, the first link you get is the Wikipedia page for "Backstage Lensman" by Randall Garret.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 27, 2015, 05:16:58 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844607
If you take the phrase I quoted,

"beams, rods, cones, stilettos, icepicks, corkscrews, knives, forks, and spoons of energy raved against the screens of the Dentless."

and enter it in its entirety into Google, the first link you get is the Wikipedia page for "Backstage Lensman" by Randall Garret.


If only I did:D!

But I didn't, and instead, my question was answered, by different people who didn't see a problem with it.
Why do you still have a problem with it, Gronan, or is it a problem with me?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 27, 2015, 08:27:30 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;844603


Years? That's meticulous planning if I've ever seen it...

Well, I'm sensing some interesting stories here...
Tell me about the twins:D!
Also, how many natural children does Chirine have?

Follow-up question, you listed a big family with two co-wives and several "aunties". Did you have any co-husbands?


Oh, yes - Phil thought in very long terms.

The twins are mine and Si N'te's little bundles of joy. Phil rolled them up, and commented he'd created two little monsters - one boy, one girl. They both inherited my abilities as a magic-user, and the wife's abilities as a telepath. She's from the Nyemesel Islands, where they have the 'good' telepaths; their very nasty cousins live in Lost Bayarsha, which is a place I do not advise visiting. The 'natural' telepaths were bred for their ability by the ancient Lords of Humanspace, like the way that they bred their Space Marines - the Nylss - and the deckhands for their starships - the Nom. The telepaths' genetic marker - and this was before DNA had been discovered, remember - is a lack of any body hair.

So, the twins were born while we were fighting the Sirsum Campaign, at the Monastery of the Many Falling Leaves about a week's march east of Hekellu. (Try running a military campaign with a heavily pregnant wife, sometime; it was a little too exciting.) They have grown up into two holy terrors, as they are perfectly normal toddlers who can vaporize you if them wanted to. Since they are telepaths, they have picked up all of mommy and daddy's spells, and while they can't blast big things, they can be hard on their toys. I am happy to say that they have also inherited their mother's good looks and even better nature, so we don't have many problems with them.

Their Ladyships refer to them as "our scrumptious little darlings", and dote on them; they are naturally cute and adorable, and their good natures simply ad to their winsome ways. They find their father (me) a never-ending source of amusement, and tend to break out into laughter when I come into the room and say something...

(One cautionary note: The twins got some 'dolls' as gifts when they were infants, and these are still their constant night-time companions. These were a gift from the Clan of the Striding Incantation, the very ancient and very high-status magical puppeteers' clan; we never, ever mess with or play with them ourselves, and only the twins handle them. We adults call the four 'dolls' The Warrior, The Priestess, The Sorceror, and The Soldier; what the twins call them, they're not sharing with us.)

That's two natural children; the third is Elara, who is a perfectly normal girl in her late teens. Luckily, she looks more like her mother then she does me - I do look like her mother, though, so there's a very strong family resemblance. She's not a magic-user, or a warrior; just a normal girl, who happens to have a large extended family.

There are the adopted kids, all of whom just sort of happened. They are relatives of various friends, allies, and people we know who wound up with us - usually, they have a bit of a history behind them, like any good NPCs, butt hey are good kids. About half of them are on the legion rolls, as they are pretty good officers - over and above the family connection, otherwise we would not have them in command of troops. The other half, more or less, are on the payroll as palace staff, keeping the place running. Two have achieved relatively high office, and I am very proud of them. I'm proud of all of them, really; all they needed was a little parenting, I think.

I can tell you all about them... :)

I do not have any co-husbands. (There are days when I could use the reinforcements, but we manage to work things out.) Their Ladyships - more formally, the Senior Wife, the Junior Wife, the First Concubine, the Second Concubine, and the Senior Courtesan - haven't found anyone that they like well enough to invite into the family, so I soldier on by myself as The Husband. The Senior Wife, in her capacity as Lady Of The House, writes up everyone's marriage contracts after lots and lots of negotiations. All of Their Ladyships (in order of seniority: the telepath, the scholar, the assassin, the sorceress, and the buccaneer - I have a very eclectic family!) get the kind of relationships that they want; it helps that they all knew each other for years before they were formally married to Yours Truly, and they're a pretty tightly-knit group.

I think I don't have any co-husbands because Their Ladyships have been described as 'formidable', and while they are not actively recruiting (I think) it may very well be that their individual and collective reputations may be scaring potential suitors off.

Me, I'm happy; they let me run the military, letting me do what I do best.

How's this for a short introduction? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 27, 2015, 10:25:35 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;844643
If only I did:D!

But I didn't, and instead, my question was answered, by different people who didn't see a problem with it.
Why do you still have a problem with it, Gronan, or is it a problem with me?


Problem, no.  Just giving you crap, that's all.  Where's that "poking somebody with a stick" smiley when you need it?

Also, I never know how much people know about how Google really works.  For instance, did you know if you google "knives, forks, and spoons of energy" Google will take you to Backstage Lensman's wiki page, but only if you include the quotation marks so that Google treats it as one phrase and not separate words?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 27, 2015, 11:17:25 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;844657
Oh, yes - Phil thought in very long terms.

The twins are mine and Si N'te's little bundles of joy. Phil rolled them up, and commented he'd created two little monsters - one boy, one girl. They both inherited my abilities as a magic-user, and the wife's abilities as a telepath. She's from the Nyemesel Islands, where they have the 'good' telepaths; their very nasty cousins live in Lost Bayarsha, which is a place I do not advise visiting. The 'natural' telepaths were bred for their ability by the ancient Lords of Humanspace, like the way that they bred their Space Marines - the Nylss - and the deckhands for their starships - the Nom. The telepaths' genetic marker - and this was before DNA had been discovered, remember - is a lack of any body hair.

So, the twins were born while we were fighting the Sirsum Campaign, at the Monastery of the Many Falling Leaves about a week's march east of Hekellu. (Try running a military campaign with a heavily pregnant wife, sometime; it was a little too exciting.) They have grown up into two holy terrors, as they are perfectly normal toddlers who can vaporize you if them wanted to. Since they are telepaths, they have picked up all of mommy and daddy's spells, and while they can't blast big things, they can be hard on their toys. I am happy to say that they have also inherited their mother's good looks and even better nature, so we don't have many problems with them.

Their Ladyships refer to them as "our scrumptious little darlings", and dote on them; they are naturally cute and adorable, and their good natures simply ad to their winsome ways. They find their father (me) a never-ending source of amusement, and tend to break out into laughter when I come into the room and say something...

(One cautionary note: The twins got some 'dolls' as gifts when they were infants, and these are still their constant night-time companions. These were a gift from the Clan of the Striding Incantation, the very ancient and very high-status magical puppeteers' clan; we never, ever mess with or play with them ourselves, and only the twins handle them. We adults call the four 'dolls' The Warrior, The Priestess, The Sorceror, and The Soldier; what the twins call them, they're not sharing with us.)

That's two natural children; the third is Elara, who is a perfectly normal girl in her late teens. Luckily, she looks more like her mother then she does me - I do look like her mother, though, so there's a very strong family resemblance. She's not a magic-user, or a warrior; just a normal girl, who happens to have a large extended family.

There are the adopted kids, all of whom just sort of happened. They are relatives of various friends, allies, and people we know who wound up with us - usually, they have a bit of a history behind them, like any good NPCs, butt hey are good kids. About half of them are on the legion rolls, as they are pretty good officers - over and above the family connection, otherwise we would not have them in command of troops. The other half, more or less, are on the payroll as palace staff, keeping the place running. Two have achieved relatively high office, and I am very proud of them. I'm proud of all of them, really; all they needed was a little parenting, I think.

I can tell you all about them... :)

I do not have any co-husbands. (There are days when I could use the reinforcements, but we manage to work things out.) Their Ladyships - more formally, the Senior Wife, the Junior Wife, the First Concubine, the Second Concubine, and the Senior Courtesan - haven't found anyone that they like well enough to invite into the family, so I soldier on by myself as The Husband. The Senior Wife, in her capacity as Lady Of The House, writes up everyone's marriage contracts after lots and lots of negotiations. All of Their Ladyships (in order of seniority: the telepath, the scholar, the assassin, the sorceress, and the buccaneer - I have a very eclectic family!) get the kind of relationships that they want; it helps that they all knew each other for years before they were formally married to Yours Truly, and they're a pretty tightly-knit group.

I think I don't have any co-husbands because Their Ladyships have been described as 'formidable', and while they are not actively recruiting (I think) it may very well be that their individual and collective reputations may be scaring potential suitors off.

Me, I'm happy; they let me run the military, letting me do what I do best.

How's this for a short introduction? :)

That's an excellent introduction! Although I'd offer an alternative explanation for your lack of co-husbands: namely, your wives suspect that you should never give a military expert reinforcements...:)
That reminds me of two questions:
What's the status of children of concubines compared to the status of legal wives?
If someone who already has an extended family wants to become co-husband to someone who already has another family, do they have to get everyone's approval;)? Or do the families just merge as soon as they go to a priest and pronounce vows?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844678
Problem, no.  Just giving you crap, that's all.  Where's that "poking somebody with a stick" smiley when you need it?

Also, I never know how much people know about how Google really works.  For instance, did you know if you google "knives, forks, and spoons of energy" Google will take you to Backstage Lensman's wiki page, but only if you include the quotation marks so that Google treats it as one phrase and not separate words?

Well, I see your predicament. I've been looking for the same smiley almost since I'm on this board.

And yes, I know that. I just didn't think to google it, neither with nor without quotation marks!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 27, 2015, 01:38:41 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;844657
Oh, yes - Phil thought in very long terms.

The twins are mine and Si N'te's little bundles of joy. Phil rolled them up, and commented he'd created two little monsters - one boy, one girl. They both inherited my abilities as a magic-user, and the wife's abilities as a telepath. She's from the Nyemesel Islands, where they have the 'good' telepaths; their very nasty cousins live in Lost Bayarsha, which is a place I do not advise visiting. The 'natural' telepaths were bred for their ability by the ancient Lords of Humanspace, like the way that they bred their Space Marines - the Nylss - and the deckhands for their starships - the Nom. The telepaths' genetic marker - and this was before DNA had been discovered, remember - is a lack of any body hair.


Short term thinking does seem to be more of a new trend.

Anyway, while I love all the details of the family, it isn't something that is easy to directly apply to starting players (besides how their new contacts fit into the scheme of things).

What may be more useful to new players is the types of inter-clan and intra-clan scheming that is going on or can be expected.

"Country Bumpkins" need interesting things they can become involved in and survive. (Assuming they have some level of common sense.)

How hostile is life in general? From your family size I have to assume it is a very "Dog eat Dog" world since high population and limited resources breeds intense competition for everything.

Does this competition effect every aspect of life?
I didn't get a feeling of internal family backstabbing besides the no co-husband.

Am I completely into "My Tekumel" and not the one you experience?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 27, 2015, 03:00:08 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844607
If you take the phrase I quoted,

"beams, rods, cones, stilettos, icepicks, corkscrews, knives, forks, and spoons of energy raved against the screens of the Dentless."

and enter it in its entirety into Google, the first link you get is the Wikipedia page for "Backstage Lensman" by Randall Garret.
I thought you were creating parody rather than quoting a parody, so I never bothered to search... or to put it another way, I knew the original source and was unaware of the published parody.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 27, 2015, 04:11:06 PM
Quote from: Bren;844732
I thought you were creating parody rather than quoting a parody, so I never bothered to search... or to put it another way, I knew the original source and was unaware of the published parody.


You should read it, it' s pretty funny.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 27, 2015, 04:34:54 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844748
You should read it, it' s pretty funny.
I'm not a huge fan of parody, but I'll look for it. At least it sounds more like parody written by someone who likes the original than what seems the more common form where the parody is written by someone who despises the source.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 27, 2015, 08:50:03 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;844684
That's an excellent introduction! Although I'd offer an alternative explanation for your lack of co-husbands: namely, your wives suspect that you should never give a military expert reinforcements...:)
That reminds me of two questions:
What's the status of children of concubines compared to the status of legal wives?
If someone who already has an extended family wants to become co-husband to someone who already has another family, do they have to get everyone's approval;)? Or do the families just merge as soon as they go to a priest and pronounce vows?


It could very well be; I keep my nose out of the household's workings. Better that way, I've found.

All children of all partners have the same legal status. There's no concept of bastardy in Tekumel.

There is not a lot of difference between 'legal wives' and 'concubines'. These terms are English translations of the Tekumelyani terms, and are not entirely accurate. (I can look up the Urdu terms that Phil used, if you like; they are more accurate reflections of what he was talking about.)'Wives' are usually in more responsible positions of running the household affairs and the clan business(es). 'Concubines' are equally responsible for family affairs, but not so much for business affairs.

Yes. A smart suitor, male or female, makes sure to become friendly with and part of the existing family/clan structure and members. Coming in 'cold' very rarely works out, as the 'cold caller' has a much harder time fitting in.

The Temples, at least in the Five Empires, do not conduct marriages. All one does to 'get married' is file the form with the Imperium - the Palace of the Realm - and the spouses move in as has been worked out. Everything is handled by the clans of the newlyweds, and everything has been negotiated in advance. Usually, the new spouse moves into the more wealthy and more high-status clan's clanhouse; the various family may or not make moves as well, depending on the situation.

Now, having said that, it is the custom to have the Temples of the various spouses appear at a party/feast and officially bless the newlyweds, asking the Gods to make sure that the relationship prospers. You'll get some pretty odd combinations, like a Priestess of Lord Sarku doing the blessings with a Priest of Thumis, or any possible combination of the Temples.

Does this help, at all?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 27, 2015, 09:04:17 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;844712
Short term thinking does seem to be more of a new trend.

Anyway, while I love all the details of the family, it isn't something that is easy to directly apply to starting players (besides how their new contacts fit into the scheme of things).

What may be more useful to new players is the types of inter-clan and intra-clan scheming that is going on or can be expected.

"Country Bumpkins" need interesting things they can become involved in and survive. (Assuming they have some level of common sense.)

How hostile is life in general? From your family size I have to assume it is a very "Dog eat Dog" world since high population and limited resources breeds intense competition for everything.

Does this competition effect every aspect of life?
I didn't get a feeling of internal family backstabbing besides the no co-husband.

Am I completely into "My Tekumel" and not the one you experience?
=


Agreed; I think very long term myself, and it's considered 'odd'.

Agreed. I was just trying to answer the question.

Please feel free to ask me about this, if you like. 'Intra-clan scheming' is generally limited to the largest of the clans, such as the Ito and Vriddi, and is usually based on political matters - both examples have factions, based on their relationships with the Imperium, and both have a lot of their clan members spending time in the Catacombs of Silent Waiting below Avanthar.

Agreed. I had a lot of fun with the 'Country Bumpkin' gambit, myself.

Tekumel is not a human-friendly world; we are not at the top of the food chain - about a third down, I think. The flora and fauna, not to mention the hostile non-humans, can make something as simple as plowing a field difficult. Hence the need for player-characters - somebody has to go out to the clan's farm outside of town to deal that Serudla who's been terrorizing the farmers. Etc., etc. , etc. Phil built this world to adventure in, after all.

Re 'competition', I don't know. In-family/clan scheming isn't very common, from my experience; the clan/family tends to be pretty unified about things. 'External' competion, on the other hand, is pretty wide-spread; 'keeping up with the hi Chaisyani or the Sea Blue clan' is normal, and can be a lot of fun to play - "Honey, Lady Mnella has those lovely new drapes from Livyanu; can I get some? Please?" - and we're off on yet another adventure!

I don't know. What is 'your Tekumel?' :)

So far, at least in this discussion, it sounds a lot like Phil's in the general run of things. Yes, I can see detail variations, but all of them have been 'well within the lines' of Phil's own gaming. Your questions sound just like what we asked Phil, some thirty-five years ago, so i think you're on the same path that we have been.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 27, 2015, 09:10:42 PM
Quote from: Bren;844754
I'm not a huge fan of parody, but I'll look for it. At least it sounds more like parody written by someone who likes the original than what seems the more common form where the parody is written by someone who despises the source.


It was first written by Randall Garrett, the author of the "Lord D'Arcy" series, and first shown to E. E. 'Doc' Smith for his comments. Doc laughed his head off all through the convention they were both at, and suggested the ship's name, the Dentless, as a parody of his own Dauntless. Phil once mentioned that Doc had a great sense of humor, and didn't take himself too seriously; he used to dress up as a Grey Lensman at conventions - but as his own age, as a slightly 'over-the-hill' Lensman who had trouble catching the bad guys because he couldn't walk fast enough...

'Doc', by the way, is credited by the US Navy for the invention of the Combat Information Center for warships; we follow in the footsteps of giants... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 27, 2015, 09:34:37 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;844792
Please feel free to ask me about this, if you like. 'Intra-clan scheming' is generally limited to the largest of the clans, such as the Ito and Vriddi, and is usually based on political matters - both examples have factions, based on their relationships with the Imperium, and both have a lot of their clan members spending time in the Catacombs of Silent Waiting below Avanthar.


I assume that things that would be embarrassing if they became common knowledge would be great for starting characters to resolve.
Running out of "performance enhancing" herb, gambling debt, Clan Stamp missing, forgetting to get that item the favorite wife wanted ...

The problem is, what is embarrassing? If not embarrassing then what types of things would need to be handled "quietly" and creatively?

What about Zuur?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;844792
Re 'competition', I don't know. In-family/clan scheming isn't very common, from my experience; the clan/family tends to be pretty unified about things. 'External' competion, on the other hand, is pretty wide-spread; 'keeping up with the hi Chaisyani or the Sea Blue clan' is normal, and can be a lot of fun to play - "Honey, Lady Mnella has those lovely new drapes from Livyanu; can I get some? Please?" - and we're off on yet another adventure!


Charging for more than shipped, diverting products or raw materials, causing "accidents" to clan property?
What would be things that would be done and how far would someone go to avoid Imperial involvement?

Fishing for adventure ideas here and maybe some you have used/done.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 27, 2015, 11:34:21 PM
Quote from: Bren;844754
I'm not a huge fan of parody, but I'll look for it. At least it sounds more like parody written by someone who likes the original than what seems the more common form where the parody is written by someone who despises the source.


I love good parody, but in my book "good" parody is only written by somebody who really, deeply loves the source.

Like "Bored of the Rings."  Remove the dated drug and political jokes, and there are sections in it that make it obvious that gang really, really loved Lord of the Rings.  You'd have to, to read it that many times to be able to parody it that well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 27, 2015, 11:35:53 PM
And, of course, parody was a highly prized form by Golden Age fantasy and SF writers... the Stainless Steel Rat, Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers, Bill the Galactic Hero, even Fafhrd & the Mouser have elements of parody, to mention nothing of Midsummer Tempest and Harold Shea.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 28, 2015, 09:08:56 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;844798
I assume that things that would be embarrassing if they became common knowledge would be great for starting characters to resolve.
Running out of "performance enhancing" herb, gambling debt, Clan Stamp missing, forgetting to get that item the favorite wife wanted ...

The problem is, what is embarrassing? If not embarrassing then what types of things would need to be handled "quietly" and creatively?

What about Zuur?



Charging for more than shipped, diverting products or raw materials, causing "accidents" to clan property?
What would be things that would be done and how far would someone go to avoid Imperial involvement?

Fishing for adventure ideas here and maybe some you have used/done.
=


Well, first off, anything that makes your clan, legion, temple, etc. look bad - i.e., held up to ridicule. All of your examples are, in greater or lesser degree, 'embarrassing', and you'd prefer to handle them on the quiet. You could add stupid actions at parties, getting caught with your fingers in the clan / temple / legion's coffers - I once killed a High Priest of the Temple of Vimuhla, on the spot, for embezzling from the temple's funds - cowardice in the face of the enemy, rape, treason, and other similar violations of the society's norms.

One of the odder things we had to do was get one of the PC's out of town in a hurry, as he'd gotten stupid and molested the city goevrnor's daughter at a party. We were told to get rid of him quietly and discreetly, so we hit him with an Excellent Ruby Eye, stuffed him in a crate, and shipped the crate off as quickly as we could. (This is the origin of "The Inexorable Cart Of Chirine ba Kal", my contribution to the Saturday Night Specials that Phil used.)

Your second set of things are also really good, and are the sort of thing that the clans want to handle themselves. They are also used, as I think you mentioned, as 'sanctions' against those who try to mess over the clan. Temples also might do this sort of thing, but they usually have the assassins' clans or their own temple guards and younger staff do the dirty work. Legions tend to react badly, and simply crush anyone who annoys them.

Everybody wants to keep the Imperium out of their affairs; once the OAL gets in the door, they tend to ask all sorts of questions. Everybody goes to pretty far lengths to keep the Imperium out - cheaper to hire player-characters to deal with the problem!

An example was the guy I killed in Khirgar for insulting people at a party; everybody, including his clan-elders, thought he was being a jerk. if he'd been drunk, he would have been excused, but he was sober - just stupid. I challenged him, and he got stupider by exceeding the terms of the duel; he got dead, in front of a pretty good audience, and his clan thanked me for settling the problem for them.

Mind you, one does not just go around killing people at parties; it does get one talked about. One has to have a pretty good reason, and unfortunately there are plenty of stupid people around.

Zu'ur is a huge no-no, as it's going to attract the immediate and dire attention of the Imperium. A clan / temple/ etc. will move very fast, very hard, and very, very quietly to deal with this issue. They will do their best to hide the addict until they die or (rarely) recover, and kill the supplier as fast as they can find them. The alternative is having the OAL in for a visit, which gets very nasty very quickly. Adventures ensue, as you'd expect, and you have to deal with the Hlyss...

Is this what you're looking for?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 28, 2015, 09:13:04 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844816
I love good parody, but in my book "good" parody is only written by somebody who really, deeply loves the source.

Like "Bored of the Rings."  Remove the dated drug and political jokes, and there are sections in it that make it obvious that gang really, really loved Lord of the Rings.  You'd have to, to read it that many times to be able to parody it that well.


"We boggies are a hairy folk, we love to eat until we choke;"
"Sing gobble, gobble, gobble!"
"Loving all like friend and brother, we hardly ever eat each other..."
"Sing gobble, gobble, gobble!"

:)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 28, 2015, 10:25:55 AM
"A Unicef Clearasil,
Gibberish an' drivel,
With a hey dey derry Tums Gardol..."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 28, 2015, 01:35:33 PM
"He would have finished him off then and there, but pity stayed his hand. It's a pity I've run out of bullets, he thought, as he went back up the tunnel..."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 28, 2015, 01:43:57 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;844881

Is this what you're looking for?


Yes!
I have an idea for an adventure dealing with a Hlyss "Predator" collecting paralyzed bodies to ship back to her ship for implanting and incubation.
Nasty bit of work.

I envision Hylss as a cross between ants and parasitoids.
Males never leaving their ships but female workers and warriors out harvesting.

It is the social things I feel I need help with getting different but approachable for new players.
Since it worked for you, I'm hoping your experience is the missing link.

Things like how is food cooked? Burned fuel or "magic stones"?
(We covered bathroom and cleanliness.)

Why the restrictions on Warriors / Priests / Magic Users (in the original rules).

Is playing a Magic User a good idea and what challenges do they have?
I heard they are a treasured resource. If so, how does this effect characters?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 28, 2015, 02:14:26 PM
Quote from: Bren;844918
"He would have finished him off then and there, but pity stayed his hand. It's a pity I've run out of bullets, he thought, as he went back up the tunnel..."


:D :D :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Eric Diaz on July 28, 2015, 04:06:09 PM
I really should go back to work, but I wanted to thank Chirine for the thread, as well as Gronan and all others that have commented here... It's fascinating... Exactly what I'm looking for in my quest for "old-schoolness".

Ill read the whole thread when I have the time...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;843570
But... But... :jaw-dropping:

I mean no disrespect to anyone with the following...

What you describe verges on the incomprehensible to me. "Changing the location" is, at least to me cheating of a sort. It's my job as your GM to plan my strategy just as carefully as you plan yours - we're trying to outwit each other, more then anything else. I have always told my players that "the rules are fixed and immutable; I will not change them just to get my own way." To me, that's being dishonest with my players, and with myself.

And storytelling... :confused:

I'm astonished; Phil and I managed to tell some pretty interesting and fun stories in our time, and we did it by playing the parts of the NPCs and such for our players to interact with. From what I can tell, the kind of storytelling that we did is not the kind of storytelling that quite a few people are thinking of...

I am baffled, I confess...


This is gold for me. I wish more GMs and players were like that.

Its somewhat hard for me to enjoy "story-oriented" games anymore, and so much of the answers I am looking for can be found in old games and tales. Hard to find people with the same mindset, thought.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 28, 2015, 07:41:28 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;844789
It could very well be; I keep my nose out of the household's workings. Better that way, I've found.
Smart man, I should strive to learn from Chirine's example:D!

Quote
All children of all partners have the same legal status. There's no concept of bastardy in Tekumel.
That surprises me. Why?
I mean, any kid might be from multiple husbands, but what about a kid that's not from any of them?
Is Tekumel's sexual culture permissive, at all?

Quote
There is not a lot of difference between 'legal wives' and 'concubines'. These terms are English translations of the Tekumelyani terms, and are not entirely accurate. (I can look up the Urdu terms that Phil used, if you like; they are more accurate reflections of what he was talking about.)'Wives' are usually in more responsible positions of running the household affairs and the clan business(es). 'Concubines' are equally responsible for family affairs, but not so much for business affairs.
Again, why? It makes sense given the "no bastardy" concept, but why?

Quote
Yes. A smart suitor, male or female, makes sure to become friendly with and part of the existing family/clan structure and members. Coming in 'cold' very rarely works out, as the 'cold caller' has a much harder time fitting in.
Good.

Quote
The Temples, at least in the Five Empires, do not conduct marriages. All one does to 'get married' is file the form with the Imperium - the Palace of the Realm - and the spouses move in as has been worked out. Everything is handled by the clans of the newlyweds, and everything has been negotiated in advance. Usually, the new spouse moves into the more wealthy and more high-status clan's clanhouse; the various family may or not make moves as well, depending on the situation.
That's a smart detail. Luckily, I've had no marriages so far in my campaign, so my mistaken ideas aren't impacting anything.

Quote
Now, having said that, it is the custom to have the Temples of the various spouses appear at a party/feast and officially bless the newlyweds, asking the Gods to make sure that the relationship prospers. You'll get some pretty odd combinations, like a Priestess of Lord Sarku doing the blessings with a Priest of Thumis, or any possible combination of the Temples.
A priest of Thumis, a Priestess of Sarku and a Priestess of Avanthe enther a clan compound...

Quote
Does this help, at all?
Yes, of course:)!
Making me raise questions is the best help I can get as a GM. Even if there wasn't anyone to answer them: I'd find an answer that works. And they could be interesting answers.
And of course, in this thread you are providing them answers;)!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;844794
It was first written by Randall Garrett, the author of the "Lord D'Arcy" series, and first shown to E. E. 'Doc' Smith for his comments. Doc laughed his head off all through the convention they were both at, and suggested the ship's name, the Dentless, as a parody of his own Dauntless. Phil once mentioned that Doc had a great sense of humor, and didn't take himself too seriously; he used to dress up as a Grey Lensman at conventions - but as his own age, as a slightly 'over-the-hill' Lensman who had trouble catching the bad guys because he couldn't walk fast enough...

'Doc', by the way, is credited by the US Navy for the invention of the Combat Information Center for warships; we follow in the footsteps of giants... :)
This is a very nice detail.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844817
And, of course, parody was a highly prized form by Golden Age fantasy and SF writers... the Stainless Steel Rat, Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers, Bill the Galactic Hero, even Fafhrd & the Mouser have elements of parody, to mention nothing of Midsummer Tempest and Harold Shea.
It still is, IMO. At least if sir Terry Pratchet's popularity is anything to go by...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;844881
Everybody wants to keep the Imperium out of their affairs; once the OAL gets in the door, they tend to ask all sorts of questions. Everybody goes to pretty far lengths to keep the Imperium out - cheaper to hire player-characters to deal with the problem!


Zu'ur is a huge no-no, as it's going to attract the immediate and dire attention of the Imperium. A clan / temple/ etc. will move very fast, very hard, and very, very quietly to deal with this issue. They will do their best to hide the addict until they die or (rarely) recover, and kill the supplier as fast as they can find them. The alternative is having the OAL in for a visit, which gets very nasty very quickly. Adventures ensue, as you'd expect, and you have to deal with the Hlyss...

Is this what you're looking for?
PCs as disposable assets isn't a Shadowrun invention, I see!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;844882
"We boggies are a hairy folk, we love to eat until we choke;"
"Sing gobble, gobble, gobble!"
"Loving all like friend and brother, we hardly ever eat each other..."
"Sing gobble, gobble, gobble!"

:)
:D
I wonder, isn't this exactly what the hobbits in Bey Su are singing:p?

Quote from: Bren;844918
"He would have finished him off then and there, but pity stayed his hand. It's a pity I've run out of bullets, he thought, as he went back up the tunnel..."
:D
This pity has stopped many a slaying hands;).

Quote from: Eric Diaz;844947
I really should go back to work, but I wanted to thank Chirine for the thread, as well as Gronan and all others that have commented here... It's fascinating... Exactly what I'm looking for in my quest for "old-schoolness".
I'd like to join the thanks, if you don't mind!
Personally, I ain't got a quest for old-schoolness. It's just that I've tried pretty much every style of running and playing RPGs that's out there.
The one I've found works best for me and my group is sandbox, relatively old-school mechanics, with hefty doses of simulationism.

Quote
This is gold for me. I wish more GMs and players were like that.
IME, most are. Or maybe it's because I stop playing with the other ones;).

Quote
Its somewhat hard for me to enjoy "story-oriented" games anymore, and so much of the answers I am looking for can be found in old games and tales. Hard to find people with the same mindset, thought.
Not in my experience. If you'd allow me an advice: find new people to get into the hobby. They often understand this style on an instinctive level, so unless you allow other GMs to "spoil" them, they tend to prefer it.
Sure, they might try story-oriented games, too, and you might even have fun with them for a while. But most people tend to go back to the old school style in the end.
Well, YMMV, of course, I can only speak based on my own observations!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 29, 2015, 12:56:11 AM
Tekumel has very different sexual mores from Earth, or at least late 20th century midwestern American Earth.  For starters they aren't embarrassed by sex.  Neither are a lot of non-American cultures in real life, for that matter.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 29, 2015, 06:50:36 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;845012
Tekumel has very different sexual mores from Earth, or at least late 20th century midwestern American Earth.  For starters they aren't embarrassed by sex.

That much I've gathered:). But EPT really doesn't go into much detail on those differences!

Quote
Neither are a lot of non-American cultures in real life, for that matter.

I know;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 29, 2015, 07:57:20 AM
Quote from: Bren;844918
"He would have finished him off then and there, but pity stayed his hand. It's a pity I've run out of bullets, he thought, as he went back up the tunnel..."


Whee! The expression, not the town... :D

It's a wonderfully fun book!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 29, 2015, 08:16:12 AM
With multiple parents in a family, pedigree must be a minor thing.
Are people so similar that there is little variation between individuals?

"Filling the Need" instead of "Born to it".

Accomplishment of the The Clan is the distinguishing factor and not accomplishment of the Lineage or the individual?

Socialism at the Clan level with Clans valued by their use-value to the Imperium?

I assume a HERO is a welcome bonus to a Clan that any Clan would try to win away from another?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 29, 2015, 08:28:35 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;844920
Yes!
I have an idea for an adventure dealing with a Hlyss "Predator" collecting paralyzed bodies to ship back to her ship for implanting and incubation.
Nasty bit of work.

I envision Hylss as a cross between ants and parasitoids.
Males never leaving their ships but female workers and warriors out harvesting.

It is the social things I feel I need help with getting different but approachable for new players.
Since it worked for you, I'm hoping your experience is the missing link.

Things like how is food cooked? Burned fuel or "magic stones"?
(We covered bathroom and cleanliness.)

Why the restrictions on Warriors / Priests / Magic Users (in the original rules).

Is playing a Magic User a good idea and what challenges do they have?
I heard they are a treasured resource. If so, how does this effect characters?
=


Yes, the Hlyss are nasty - we fought a nest-ship, once, and it got pretty exciting. The alternative, though, was gruesome.

You have them down nicely, but swap the gender roles. The females are the 'queens' of the hive , with the males as senior leaders when they go out at all The vast majority of the ones that you meet are 'neuter' warriors and worker caste. A really nice guy made me some Hlyss nest-mothers as miniatures. They give me nightmares.

Happy to help - please keep asking your questions! :)

Cooking is done over burned fuel; charcoal for choice in the wealthy folks' kitchens, dried chlen dung for the poor. I don't think we ever saw any coal, and I don't recall seeing it on any of Phil's maps - including the original 1950s ones that showed all the resources of the Five Empires.

My palace in the Nyemsel Islands has hot water heating for a lot of things, but that's because we have some handy hot springs and even handier Tinaliya. Bit of advice: Tinaliya make great remodelers, but get the instructions for the bathroom's controls in writing.

Because Gary Gygax said so. No, seriously, this was something that Gary wanted Phil to include. Please also see my post #255, on page 26 of this thread; I talked about it there, but I'm happy to talk some more about it if you like.

Playing a Magic-User is always fun, if that's what the player wants to do. In practice one liked to have all three types in the party, as it made for a balanced fighting team. Yes, they are a little scarce, so you do want to protect them with people in armor when possible. I'm not sure how it would affect play - we never seemed to have any problems, except of our own making.

Very interesting question, too. I'd like to offer more, if you have some more on this...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 29, 2015, 08:29:53 AM
Quote from: Eric Diaz;844947
I really should go back to work, but I wanted to thank Chirine for the thread, as well as Gronan and all others that have commented here... It's fascinating... Exactly what I'm looking for in my quest for "old-schoolness".

Ill read the whole thread when I have the time...



This is gold for me. I wish more GMs and players were like that.

Its somewhat hard for me to enjoy "story-oriented" games anymore, and so much of the answers I am looking for can be found in old games and tales. Hard to find people with the same mindset, thought.


You are very welcome! Please feel free to ask anything you want - it's what I'm here for! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 29, 2015, 08:35:29 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;844982

That surprises me. Why?
I mean, any kid might be from multiple husbands, but what about a kid that's not from any of them?
Is Tekumel's sexual culture permissive, at all?

Again, why? It makes sense given the "no bastardy" concept, but why?


Yes. We have several fertility deities, after all, and children are raised by the clan, and much less by the individual 'family'. There isn't a concept of a 'nuclear family', like most Western societies have. If a woman wants to have a baby, she does, and the clan backs her up to raise and educate the kid.

The father is considered 'noble' if he helps support the child, and kind of looked down on as a cheap twit if he doesn't. Society is mostly matrilineal anyway, so it's the woman's choice, really.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 29, 2015, 08:41:05 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;845045
That much I've gathered:). But EPT really doesn't go into much detail on those differences!


I know;).


No, because it was published in 1976 in rural Wisconsin, where even mentioning sex was a big no-no, and Gary had very real worried about the backlash it would get. EPT, when it came out back then, was considered a very naughty and risque game for all the casual nudity, homosexual stuff, rampant nipples, and casual sex. People had major-league fits over the thing, back in the day, and these days most of what's in EPT wouldn't cause any raised eyebrows.

Heck, back then the word 'lesbian' was considered very naughty and daring! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 29, 2015, 08:51:28 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;845062
With multiple parents in a family, pedigree must be a minor thing.
Are people so similar that there is little variation between individuals?

"Filling the Need" instead of "Born to it".

Accomplishment of the The Clan is the distinguishing factor and not accomplishment of the Lineage or the individual?

Socialism at the Clan level with Clans valued by their use-value to the Imperium?

I assume a HERO is a welcome bonus to a Clan that any Clan would try to win away from another?
=


Very good questions!

Pedigrees are important when property is involved. Most of the time, the clan does keep records of who has been born to who, to avoid in-breeding, and there is usually a prohibition on things like incest. However, since most property is held in common by the clan as a whole, pedigrees are not all that big a deal.

Well, everybody in the Five Empires has pretty much the same skin color and hair color; there are none of the 'racial types' we currently have on this planet, as in Tekumel's far-future setting, it's pretty not there. Individuals do look different, and you get all sorts of variations-on-the-theme.

Yes; generally clan comes first, then lineage, then individual.

Um, sort of; the Imperium isn't all that worried about 'using' a particular clan, as there's always somebody to take their place. The Tlakotani are a different story, of course! Wealth and nobility tend to determine a clan's status. Did i understand your question, though?

Oh, yes, very much so! See also the Glorious General's or my career; we heroes are a hot commodity on the market, I tell you. Humble and non-noble origins get overlooked very quickly for a real hero... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 29, 2015, 08:53:13 AM
Migawd! We're up to 53 pages! We need an index or something ... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 29, 2015, 09:16:21 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;845066
Yes. We have several fertility deities, after all, and children are raised by the clan, and much less by the individual 'family'. There isn't a concept of a 'nuclear family', like most Western societies have. If a woman wants to have a baby, she does, and the clan backs her up to raise and educate the kid.

The father is considered 'noble' if he helps support the child, and kind of looked down on as a cheap twit if he doesn't. Society is mostly matrilineal anyway, so it's the woman's choice, really.
Well, now it makes sense!
I think I've been influenced too much by the Chinese campaigns I had run in the last few years.

And that point of view is totally familiar. It also makes sense in the context.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;845063
Because Gary Gygax said so. No, seriously, this was something that Gary wanted Phil to include. Please also see my post #255, on page 26 of this thread; I talked about it there, but I'm happy to talk some more about it if you like.
Would you care to elaborate?
Were the characters as envisioned by MAR Barker closer to "Renaissence Men", knowing a bit of fighting, a bit of spellcasting from their temple, and so on, with everyone possibly having a favoured area:)?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;845068
No, because it was published in 1976 in rural Wisconsin, where even mentioning sex was a big no-no, and Gary had very real worried about the backlash it would get. EPT, when it came out back then, was considered a very naughty and risque game for all the casual nudity, homosexual stuff, rampant nipples, and casual sex. People had major-league fits over the thing, back in the day, and these days most of what's in EPT wouldn't cause any raised eyebrows.

Heck, back then the word 'lesbian' was considered very naughty and daring! :)
Note to self: Wisconsin didn't have nearly enough hippies in the 60ies...;)
And yes, EPT didn't cause me to raise my brows. I figured it was probably risque for the 70ies, but by my standards, it's just "not too strongly sanitized".

BTW, there's nothing naughty and daring about living on Lesbos island, in and of itself, or at least not any more than living elsewhere in Greece:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 29, 2015, 10:00:24 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;845072
Well, now it makes sense!
I think I've been influenced too much by the Chinese campaigns I had run in the last few years.

And that point of view is totally familiar. It also makes sense in the context.


Would you care to elaborate?
Were the characters as envisioned by MAR Barker closer to "Renaissence Men", knowing a bit of fighting, a bit of spellcasting from their temple, and so on, with everyone possibly having a favoured area:)?


Note to self: Wisconsin didn't have nearly enough hippies in the 60ies...;)
And yes, EPT didn't cause me to raise my brows. I figured it was probably risque for the 70ies, but by my standards, it's just "not too strongly sanitized".

BTW, there's nothing naughty and daring about living on Lesbos island, in and of itself, or at least not any more than living elsewhere in Greece:D!


Happy to help!

Well, Gary strongly favored 'classes' for PC types; Dave strongly favored skills that you bought with points. EPT reflects both approaches, due to the two of them working with Phil - nobody else, in Phil's circle, had any idea of how to write an RPG at that time so...

Oddly enough, what you describe is what Phil himself preferred, and what he used in the now -lost "Skein of Destiny" RPG and the later S&G. His idea was that one had an occupation, with a career path, and one learned what one needed to learn to be able to do that job. We certainly played that way in his games after about 1981, and it did make a lot of sense. We were all 'generalists', with a fair bit of special knowledge that was appropriate to our place in life.

Most Americans are quite unaware of the island in the Aegean... :o
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 29, 2015, 10:13:50 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;845085
Happy to help!

Well, Gary strongly favored 'classes' for PC types; Dave strongly favored skills that you bought with points. EPT reflects both approaches, due to the two of them working with Phil - nobody else, in Phil's circle, had any idea of how to write an RPG at that time so...

Suddenly, the actual design of EPT makes sense!
For the first time, might I add:).
It just makes sense to include what the people advising you are recommending.

Quote
Oddly enough, what you describe is what Phil himself preferred, and what he used in the now -lost "Skein of Destiny" RPG and the later S&G. His idea was that one had an occupation, with a career path, and one learned what one needed to learn to be able to do that job. We certainly played that way in his games after about 1981, and it did make a lot of sense. We were all 'generalists', with a fair bit of special knowledge that was appropriate to our place in life.

I'm afraid I've never heard of the "Skein of Destiny" RPG. But yeah, many games have been doing it this way - and by now, it's been decades since the first such appeared.
It's just that neither of those games is D&D, and they weren't written by Gary Gygax.

Quote
Most Americans are quite unaware of the island in the Aegean... :o

Well, it's in a neighbouring country for me, so I should be expected to know a bit more;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 29, 2015, 01:48:25 PM
chirine ba kal:

I assume that when playing, a character succeeds at something that is their Original Skills or Professional Skills unless something specifically says a roll is required.
Is this correct? Someone once said that the "likelihood of a spell working" should be used for Skills as well.
This seems not fun to me but, is it the way you use the rules?

The EPT rules say spells, some Eyes, and other magical devices attacks
are "automatic hits" and the only defensive possible against them is a successful saving throw.

I always assumed that if there was a serious question of a Skill being successful then a Saving Throw could be used.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 29, 2015, 01:54:18 PM
Is there a Clan Registry or do each Clan keep their own records of what other clans there are?

Where would a "Country Bumpkin" go to find a branch of their clan in a city?

Would the average person on the street know more than just the largest and the ones they have specifically dealt with (or were local)?

What about temples or shrines?
Assuming there are a multitude of aspects that a person could focus on for worship and/or offerings.
How does one find where they are located?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 29, 2015, 08:39:56 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;845090
Suddenly, the actual design of EPT makes sense!
For the first time, might I add:).
It just makes sense to include what the people advising you are recommending.


I'm afraid I've never heard of the "Skein of Destiny" RPG. But yeah, many games have been doing it this way - and by now, it's been decades since the first such appeared.
It's just that neither of those games is D&D, and they weren't written by Gary Gygax.


Well, it's in a neighbouring country for me, so I should be expected to know a bit more;).


Yep; I'd agree.

"Skein" existed only in manuscript form. Phil started it about 1979, and abandoned it after it simply got too bid and unwieldy. It was S&G, but with everything all in one volume. It would have been over 1,200 pages in manuscript.

Agreed about the Gygax reference, too. Who remembers Dave Arneson, anymore?
:)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 29, 2015, 08:44:06 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;845121
chirine ba kal:

I assume that when playing, a character succeeds at something that is their Original Skills or Professional Skills unless something specifically says a roll is required.
Is this correct? Someone once said that the "likelihood of a spell working" should be used for Skills as well.
This seems not fun to me but, is it the way you use the rules?

The EPT rules say spells, some Eyes, and other magical devices attacks
are "automatic hits" and the only defensive possible against them is a successful saving throw.

I always assumed that if there was a serious question of a Skill being successful then a Saving Throw could be used.
=


Yes. Phil would have you roll, but if you had the skill for that action it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that you'd succeed. He wanted to have the option of something like a fumble happening, but if you were any good at something it never came up. He never used the spell working roll for a skill-related test.

Yes. That's pretty much the way Phil did it; the object of your actions would roll a simple saving throw. It was quicker that way, and often funnier.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 29, 2015, 09:01:44 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;845122
Is there a Clan Registry or do each Clan keep their own records of what other clans there are?

Where would a "Country Bumpkin" go to find a branch of their clan in a city?

Would the average person on the street know more than just the largest and the ones they have specifically dealt with (or were local)?

What about temples or shrines?
Assuming there are a multitude of aspects that a person could focus on for worship and/or offerings.
How does one find where they are located?
=


Yes, to both. The Imperium's Palace of the Realm keeps a central registry of all clans, as well as all of the local ones - no matter how small or obscure. Asking there can result in some very interesting things happening. The clans also keep their own lists, carefully annotated with 'who we like and don't like' and why and in what context. A clan might be opposed to another for business reasons, but allied for political ones. Or the reverse, too.

They would have been provided with a letter of introduction from their home clan house, and given detailed directions on how to get there if they were not already provided with a guide. There are 'transport' clans that specialize in moving goods and people, and these would take care of the visitor at the behest of the local clan. One can always ask at the Palace of the Realm, too. The city guards at the gate will also know, as well.

Could be, depending on the status of the person being asked. The higher level the person, the more likely they might know. (I'd roll percentile dice for them knowing the answer to the question, myself.) I normally ask one of the market urchins, who seem to know everything, and then hire them as a local guide. It's cheaper and more efficient, as the kids seem to know everything and everyone - for a small consideration, of course!

(On a side note, my palace has 'market urchins' - the Court Pages - who seem to know everything and everyone in the palace, and what's going on at any given time. Everybody thinks I've got this wonderful ability to know what's going on, with eyes in the back of my head, but it's all nonsense. I just ask the Pages, 'cause they know everything. Do not play games of skill and chance with them, however; you will deeply regret it.)

Yes, there are many, many Aspects to the gods. Ask at the temple of the god or goddess; they have in-house 'chapels' and little mini-temples to the various aspects, and they can provide guides and escorts to any located elsewhere in the local area. The Shrine of the Blue Fish in Khirgar is a good example; ask at the Temple of Ksarul, and they'll be happy to take you there. You can also ask at the Imperium's Palace of the Priesthoods for this kind of information, and also the city guards would probably know. Again, you can always ask the urchins; they are usually honest - for a small consideration, of course - and both better informed and more discreet.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 30, 2015, 08:21:01 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;845166
The city guards at the gate will also know, as well.


I would expect the City Guards to know the Ones That Matter and not every 2 bit clan in existence.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;845166
Could be, depending on the status of the person being asked. The higher level the person, the more likely they might know. (I'd roll percentile dice for them knowing the answer to the question, myself.)


Like the City Guard, I would expect them to know only Those That Matter.
Unlike the Guard I would think they would know the Top People in the Top Clans and the lesser ones that their clan deals with directly.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;845166
I normally ask one of the market urchins, who seem to know everything, and then hire them as a local guide. It's cheaper and more efficient, as the kids seem to know everything and everyone - for a small consideration, of course!


Gods Bless the Urchins!
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 30, 2015, 08:31:55 AM
chirine ba kal:

Do clans borrow items from other clans?

If so, what happens if they don't or can't give the item back?

As with items, what about people?

If a clan member is enslaved, how far will their clan go to recover them?

What about impressed into service by the Imperial Navy or Army?
Do they serve and the clan gets compensation? Can the clan "trade" a person?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 30, 2015, 08:34:52 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;845255
I would expect the City Guards to know the Ones That Matter and not every 2 bit clan in existence.

Like the City Guard, I would expect them to know only Those That Matter.
Unlike the Guard I would think they would know the Top People in the Top Clans and the lesser ones that their clan deals with directly.

Gods Bless the Urchins!
=


Agreed; that's where the money usually is... :)

On the other hand, in smaller towns the city guards are usually members of the two-bit clans.

Agreed; you have it down quite accurately!

Indeed; they've saved my sorry butt on a number of occasions.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 30, 2015, 08:57:19 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;845256
chirine ba kal:

Do clans borrow items from other clans?

If so, what happens if they don't or can't give the item back?

As with items, what about people?

If a clan member is enslaved, how far will their clan go to recover them?

What about impressed into service by the Imperial Navy or Army?
Do they serve and the clan gets compensation? Can the clan "trade" a person?
=


Yes.

They pay shamtla money in compensation.

Yes. Same answer; compensation is paid. (We actually had a court case that we tried in Phil's campaign for some UK gamers over a valuable sword that was in a situation like you describe, by the way.)

Pretty far; it's considered pretty dire (and an embarrassing scandal!) to have one's clan-cousin get sold into slavery. Aside from people born slaves, getting sold into slavery is usually for failing to pay one's debts; the clan will normally try to step in and pay the debts, and then make the debtor work off the debt to the clan as a whole. The clan will not be amused, and the debtor will be in the clan's bad graces until they repay their 'ransom'.

The Imperial military doesn't impress people for military service proper; it's not 'noble'. People do get turned out for what I'd call 'forced labor' for things like digging, moving supplies, etc., but they'd all be from low-status clans - or unlucky PCs, who happen to be in the neighborhood. Clans-people who get 'requisitioned' get paid a bit of money - never very much! - for their labor, and their clan does usually get a payment n compensation for the loss of their labor while they are in Imperial service.

Yes, the clan can exchange one person for another in the corvee; higher-status people in the clan, or those who are in the clan's 'good graces', will usually not have to serve. They'll be 'exchanged' for low-status people or those in bad odor with the clan-elders. The Imperium is not fussy about who gets drafted for work - all they do is tell the clan that such and such a number of people are wanted for such and such a time in such and such a place, and the clan sends the people as required.

As you might guess, it's a system ripe with opportunities for abuse and fraud, and is usually a source of problems for everyone concerned. Clans have been known to 'sweep' the Foreigners' Quarter of the nearest large city, rounding up all the low-status foreigners that they can find, and then sending these people off as the requisitioned workers and keeping their own people at home.

Personally, I have always preferred to hire 'temporary workers' from reputable clans. I do not keep slaves, because I'd prefer not to have my throat cut while I'm asleep; part of my 'back story' is that I was assigned to the Imperial forces that put down the nasty slave revolt in and around the town of Ferenara. (A player got the fief, and thought that he could raise a private army by arming slaves. Guess how well that worked? This was in the old "Dragon", by the way.) It's just safer and more efficient to have hired staff, if you ask me; impressed labor looks cheaper at first glance, but there is always a problem or problems that come up.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 30, 2015, 10:08:28 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;845259
(A player got the fief, and thought that he could raise a private army by arming slaves. Guess how well that worked? This was in the old "Dragon", by the way.)


I remember that ... :D :D :D :D :D

Actually, it was a valuable early lesson in how Tekumel was not formed by the myths of late 20th century America, where if you free and arm slaves they will be devoted to you as their liberator.  Simon Bolivar he wasn't.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 30, 2015, 10:55:50 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;845012
Tekumel has very different sexual mores from Earth, or at least late 20th century midwestern American Earth.  For starters they aren't embarrassed by sex.  Neither are a lot of non-American cultures in real life, for that matter.
I’m convinced that most of the people in Europe who were embarrassed by sex emigrated to America.
   
Quote from: chirine ba kal;845085
Most Americans are quite unaware of the island in the Aegean... :o
Sapphic poetry just isn't as popular as it used to be. Personally, I blame HBO. ;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 30, 2015, 11:16:37 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;845160
Yep; I'd agree.

"Skein" existed only in manuscript form. Phil started it about 1979, and abandoned it after it simply got too bid and unwieldy. It was S&G, but with everything all in one volume. It would have been over 1,200 pages in manuscript.

Agreed about the Gygax reference, too. Who remembers Dave Arneson, anymore?
:)
Too bad it wasn't ever finished. And well, games like Pathfinder are 900 pages in print, for much less bang per page if you ask me:).

Well, I remember him having existed, but I don't remember Arneson himself.
And my point was simply that if Gary Gygax, who proved himself to be the better businessman, had favoured a different approach to systems, both Tekumel and D&D would have had a different system. If it had been Marc Miller instead, Tekumel would have been heavily career-based.
Whether such a change would have impacted D&D's popularity is up for speculation. Tekumel would have been about as popular as it is now, I'd think;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;845269
I remember that ... :D :D :D :D :D

Actually, it was a valuable early lesson in how Tekumel was not formed by the myths of late 20th century America, where if you free and arm slaves they will be devoted to you as their liberator.  Simon Bolivar he wasn't.
I wonder why. Even in Rome freed slaves were considered clients;).

Quote from: Bren;845277
I’m convinced that most of the people in Europe who were embarrassed by sex emigrated to America.
Your theory doesn't sound unlikely:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 30, 2015, 02:00:57 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;845259
Pretty far; it's considered pretty dire (and an embarrassing scandal!) to have one's clan-cousin get sold into slavery. Aside from people born slaves, getting sold into slavery is usually for failing to pay one's debts; the clan will normally try to step in and pay the debts, and then make the debtor work off the debt to the clan as a whole. The clan will not be amused, and the debtor will be in the clan's bad graces until they repay their 'ransom'.


I'm trying a reboot of an EPT game on RPoL. In the thread where I am reporting it's progress...
http://odd74.proboards.com/thread/11088/oept1-jakalla-harbor
=== gronan of simmerya posted:
"Ohe, Chirine, ten Kaitars says the fat overseer tries to enslave the fishermen."

"No dice, Glorious General, that's a sucker bet."
===

This made me wonder how that would work out.
The characters are "Country Bumpkins" but are not "clanless" so, I was wondering if their clan would take exception to having their "out of town" members enslaved.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 30, 2015, 08:19:12 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;845269
I remember that ... :D :D :D :D :D

Actually, it was a valuable early lesson in how Tekumel was not formed by the myths of late 20th century America, where if you free and arm slaves they will be devoted to you as their liberator.  Simon Bolivar he wasn't.


Yep; I don;t think the player - Gary Rudolph - ever really 'got' why the slaves didn't love and adore him. Phil had ample historical precedent to back himself up, though... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 30, 2015, 08:23:17 PM
Quote from: Bren;845277
I’m convinced that most of the people in Europe who were embarrassed by sex emigrated to America.
   
Sapphic poetry just isn't as popular as it used to be. Personally, I blame HBO. ;)


They were, actually; you have the historical record and their own writings on the subject on your side. And we're still paying for it today...

Yep. The number of people who think that HBO and Starz are reliable historical references scares me. My perception is that people don't read books, any more; if it ain't on the telly or the 'net, it ain't.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 30, 2015, 08:31:26 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;845285
Too bad it wasn't ever finished. And well, games like Pathfinder are 900 pages in print, for much less bang per page if you ask me:).

Well, I remember him having existed, but I don't remember Arneson himself.
And my point was simply that if Gary Gygax, who proved himself to be the better businessman, had favoured a different approach to systems, both Tekumel and D&D would have had a different system. If it had been Marc Miller instead, Tekumel would have been heavily career-based.
Whether such a change would have impacted D&D's popularity is up for speculation. Tekumel would have been about as popular as it is now, I'd think;).


I wonder why. Even in Rome freed slaves were considered clients;).


Re the page count, back in those days 100 pages of book was considered excessive.

Gary, according to himself, was a terrible businessman; he was simply much better at selling himself and his product.

And I do agree about the influences on Phil, by the way.

Slavery on Tekumel is viewed very differently then it is now or in Ancient Rome. It's very 'ignoble', and slaves are almost an 'untouchable' caste in society. You don't see them in all the occupations you'd have seen them in Rome, or anywhere nearly as well-treated. Slave-dealers are very socially unacceptable, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 30, 2015, 08:42:34 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;845318
I'm trying a reboot of an EPT game on RPoL. In the thread where I am reporting it's progress...
http://odd74.proboards.com/thread/11088/oept1-jakalla-harbor
=== gronan of simmerya posted:
"Ohe, Chirine, ten Kaitars says the fat overseer tries to enslave the fishermen."

"No dice, Glorious General, that's a sucker bet."
===

This made me wonder how that would work out.
The characters are "Country Bumpkins" but are not "clanless" so, I was wondering if their clan would take exception to having their "out of town" members enslaved.
=


Well, the overseer might very well try it, if he thinks that the clan hasn't got the power or influence to stop him, but the clan will react very badly when they find out that the 'country cousins' have gotten kidnapped. If the clan itself doesn't have the ability to rescue them, they will call on their network of connections and favors with more powerful clans to get their help. This, in turn, may mean that player-character's get hired to form a rescue party, and turned loose on the overseer. The overseer's clan would get about a dozen heartbeats formal notice of impending action before the rescue party hit, and the clan doing the rescue would have made sure to inform the Imperium about what they planned and gotten a 'permit' for the rescue. More influence and favors at work here, of course.

Which might result in the city guards standing around and watching - keeping the curious crowd of spectators out of the way - while the PCs did their thing. "You missed a spot, there, Noble Lord." "Why, thank you (tipping the guard a coin), you're right!" Kicks the overseer in the ribs. "Much better, there, Noble Lord." Do the paperwork, and line up your support, and the guards will cover for you. Did this kind of thing a few times in my career, having to rescue a few people once in a while...

Lots of adventure potential, here! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 30, 2015, 11:26:16 PM
Oh, I somehow thought those in the boat were Southern barbarians.

Yeah, even a low status clan would make unholy hell if you tried to enslave a Tsolyani citizen by main force rather than legally.

"Dibs on the overseer's sandals" says a heavily accented voice from the third boat down the line.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 30, 2015, 11:29:39 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;845384
My perception is that people don't read books, any more; if it ain't on the telly or the 'net, it ain't.
Outside of people in school during the current brief historical blip of mandatory education, most people never did read books.

Re: Roman slavery wasn't untouchable status exactly, but being enslaved was a big loss of social status for people in the Greco Roman world, especially for a Roman citizen. Lots of inhabitants weren't citizens though. And Rome allowed for manumission, slaves earning money, and for social mobility based on wealth so it was possible for some slaves to leave their status.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 30, 2015, 11:39:59 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;845383
Yep; I don;t think the player - Gary Rudolph - ever really 'got' why the slaves didn't love and adore him. Phil had ample historical precedent to back himself up, though... :)


He ( Gary Rudolph ) was great at essentially missing the concept of the game.  IN my D&D world, he decided that since XP came from gold, investing in caravans and sea voyages would make him a more powerful wizard.

I don't think he expected to level up to second-level merchant.

Also, it's a game about adventuring and gaining power; it seems like he wanted both in Ram's Horn and Tekumel to skip the adventuring and just gain power.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 31, 2015, 07:59:35 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;845416
Oh, I somehow thought those in the boat were Southern barbarians.

Yeah, even a low status clan would make unholy hell if you tried to enslave a Tsolyani citizen by main force rather than legally.

"Dibs on the overseer's sandals" says a heavily accented voice from the third boat down the line.


This discussion with chirine ba kal pointed out that even as "Southern barbarians" they have clan associations.
Maybe I'm completely confused? That is why I'm asking these questions here (and pleased the answers have been Sword & Planet oriented.)

I'm assuming that "Emerald Fishers" are a clan of those that seek out and retrieve valuable things for patrons.
That there would be at least a small group of them somewhere in the boats outside of Jakalla?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Sampans_in_Hong_Kong_2.jpg)
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 31, 2015, 09:43:45 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;845499
This discussion with chirine ba kal pointed out that even as "Southern barbarians" they have clan associations.
Maybe I'm completely confused? That is why I'm asking these questions here (and pleased the answers have been Sword & Planet oriented.)

I'm assuming that "Emerald Fishers" are a clan of those that seek out and retrieve valuable things for patrons.
That there would be at least a small group of them somewhere in the boats outside of Jakalla?
=


I don't think you're confused - what we're running into is a matter of nuance, more then anything else.

if your fishermen are native Tsolyani, then they are going to be part of a clan and registered as Imperial citizens for tax purposes. They can't be casually enslaved; they have to be sentenced by a court, and the clan will normally try very hard to prevent that from happening.

If your fishermen are the proverbial 'Southern barbarians' (and it should be mentioned that the Glorious General was one of these - and see where he's managed to get to! - so he's got some perspective, here), then they will have connections to a local clan of some sort - see also my example of Cousin Woofel, their local clan-cousin. Woofel will still be one of their fellow clan-members 'from the old country', but he may also may have - probably will have, actually - gotten himself into one of the local clans and gotten his citizenship papers.

The new immigrants will not have their papers, unless somebody has a lot of money, so they have much less in the way of legal protections; if they were enslaved by somebody - and I can think of several people who's try this on them - they would have to get word to Cousin Woofel; he, in turn, would let his local contacts know what's happened to his kinfolk, and they, in turn, would send a little 'delegation' down to the docks to 'negotiate' the fishermen's release from bondage. My guess is that they would stop by the overseer's clan house to register their unhappiness with the situation, and then it would be a foot race to see who got to the overseer first. Woofel and his clan to simply stage a rescue and a thrashing, or the overseer's clan to stage a thrashing and a rescue.

Either way, the overly clever / greedy overseer is in for a rough time, and will likely have to pay shamtla to the fishermen.

Yes, you would find Emerald Fishers on the waterfront. Keep in mind that in Jakalla, 'Emerald' being used in a clan name usually denotes a strong Dlamelish preference in the clan; The Emerald Lady is Jakalla's patron deity.

I'd not be surprised if that have a nice side business in the lost-and-found trade, either. Due to the large amounts of water traffic on the river, people are always losing things. You might also want to note that they may be in some conflict with a guy by the name of Jajal, who's the Harbor Master in Jakalla and has been trying to dredge the harbor for whatever treasure he can find. This is considered an affront to the traditional way of doing things, where the fisher clans find the stuff and pay the Harbor Master a percentage.

Harchar is also on the side of the fisher clans, and is not find of Jajal and manages to find ways to make him look bad in high society - Jajal has pretensions to class, but is considered pretty 'new rich' by all the right sort of folks.

Does any of this help? Phil really loved to set things up so as to give himself lots of opportunities for staging adventures, so if you 'err on the side of...' in this direction, you really can't go wrong in my experience with him.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 31, 2015, 09:52:48 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;845513
Yes, you would find Emerald Fishers on the waterfront. Keep in mind that in Jakalla, 'Emerald' being used in a clan name usually denotes a strong Dlamelish preference in the clan; The Emerald Lady is Jakalla's patron deity.
I either didn't know that about the clan name or I forgot it. That's the kind of setting element I really like.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 31, 2015, 02:03:14 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;845513
Does any of this help? Phil really loved to set things up so as to give himself lots of opportunities for staging adventures, so if you 'err on the side of...' in this direction, you really can't go wrong in my experience with him.


Immeasurable help. Also timely. ;)
I assume that word would spread through the "grapevine" of urchins and that would be how their Cousin would hear of it?

Would such a slaving attempt be blatant or when they were "led astray"?

I assume "diving equipment" would be jealously guarded by the clans that had it.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 31, 2015, 10:46:12 PM
Quote from: Bren;845517
I either didn't know that about the clan name or I forgot it. That's the kind of setting element I really like.


Cool! When you've been doing Tekumel as long as I have, it comes pretty naturally - which may be why Phil once said "Chirine, you've got native." Which is a pretty nice compliment, I thought, and may be an example of 'immersion'... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 31, 2015, 11:29:48 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;845575
Immeasurable help. Also timely. ;)
I assume that word would spread through the "grapevine" of urchins and that would be how their Cousin would hear of it?

Would such a slaving attempt be blatant or when they were "led astray"?

I assume "diving equipment" would be jealously guarded by the clans that had it.
=


Happy to help!

Yep, Cousin Woofel would hear about this pretty quickly, tip the helpful urchin(s) - who would then scamper off to set up the betting on what would happen next - and call out the clan and their allies to effect a rescue. Player-characters would be hired as 'muscle', officials would be bribed, and life on the Jakalla waterfront would carry on more or less as usual.

Depends on how gullible the fishermen seem to be. Quieter is usually better, but I don't how discreet this guy is.

Oh, yes; it's be a very closely-guarded secret of the clan, and known only to a very few people on a 'need to know' basis. The 'tech level' of ordinary society is about that of the Diodachi, so you have plenty of Greek manuscripts on this kind of thing to work from. I think the Discovery channel also had a show where they built an Alexander-period diving suit from a manuscript, and tried it out in open water. Worked quite well, the diver said.

Here's a link to Leonardo's version of the gear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjzZ1-Plgjs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjzZ1-Plgjs)

And from Howard Fielding of The Tekumel Project:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZcTKe0GSGk4/VU3-aYgXIdI/AAAAAAAACYs/IChXLTipXrA/s1600/southern_seas_divers_300dpi.jpg)

I should also mention that you, the GM, have the option of having the more high-status divers knowing the 'Control of Self' spell from EPT. However, trained divers who are also trained magic-users are pretty rare on the ground, so I'd expect the clan to use 'conventional' divers for the search phase and the 'unconventional' one for the actual recovery. And it's all billable time and expense, of course... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 31, 2015, 11:34:21 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;845499
This discussion with chirine ba kal pointed out that even as "Southern barbarians" they have clan associations.


I can't say how Phil started characters later on, but in 1974 they sure as hell did not.

We washed ashore with our boats that we sold for a handful of coins, and about six words of Tsolyani.  The Southern Continent was completely Tekumel Incognita.  We were informed in no uncertain terms that we dared not venture out of the Foreigners' Quarter without an escort of at least one citizen to make sure we didn't accidentally break some social rule we didn't understand.  This proscription went until I think third level.  We had no clan, no friends, and no safe harbor.  That's why Moose, Anka'a, and I did indeed huddle together in a corner of a flophouse and take turns sleeping for safety's sake.

Starting out as a first level character in original EPT was rough.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 01, 2015, 01:41:06 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;845654
I can't say how Phil started characters later on, but in 1974 they sure as hell did not.

We washed ashore with our boats that we sold for a handful of coins, and about six words of Tsolyani.  The Southern Continent was completely Tekumel Incognita.  We were informed in no uncertain terms that we dared not venture out of the Foreigners' Quarter without an escort of at least one citizen to make sure we didn't accidentally break some social rule we didn't understand.  This proscription went until I think third level.  We had no clan, no friends, and no safe harbor.  That's why Moose, Anka'a, and I did indeed huddle together in a corner of a flophouse and take turns sleeping for safety's sake.

Starting out as a first level character in original EPT was rough.


Agreed!!! It was deadly, in the early days of the campaign, and I think Phil found out - and the PCs found out the hard way! - that his original approach was just too fatal for most players. People seemed, from the records that Phil kept, to come and go pretty often and I wonder if this was because of PC mortality.


When I started , in early 1976, Phil had pretty much abandoned the 'barbarians in a boat' gambit, and had begun putting people into the context of the society to get them started. It was also, I think, a rationale for keeping new people alive as the 'regular' players had by then gone up enough in ability to stay alive in the face of more high-powered threats. he made sure to integrate players into the clan structure, no matter how low, and this really increased survival rates.

Here's a poser for you, Glorious General. Arneson had a real reputation as a 'killer referee', and famously once said if he hadn't killed off half the party in the first thirty minutes of the game session he wasn't doing his job. (This is why we refused to go into the castle basement, when Phil sent us to Blackmoor.) This was due to the happenstance of Dave's 'evil' players eventually leaving, because of real life things, and Dave had to play all the 'bad guys' and monsters.

How much do you think Dave's play style influenced Phil, in the very early days of the EPT campaign?

From my perspective as an archivist and historian, the emphasis in play in the period 1974 - 1976 was pretty deadly, from what all of you have told me, and after the group split things 'eased up' as Phil spent more and more time exploring his world, and he had less and less influence from the original Blackmoor crowd. In my own experience with Phil in the early days, say 1976 to 1978, he seemed to be a very 'hesitant' and unsure of himself GM, and then seemed to get a better grip on game play as we went along. Again, from my time with him, he seemed a lot more sure of himself from 1978 to well into the middle 1980s, with a pretty confident grasp of what he did and did not want to have for game mechanics and play style.

Thoughts?

And yes, all of you in the 'first waves' had no social connections; you were all literally 'just off the boat', with nothing in the way of support structures. And a lot of people got dead, really quickly; I think that the 'turnover' in PCs may have been part of what caused Phil to emphasize the social contexts over the slaughter...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 01, 2015, 01:46:14 AM
I think I may not be amiss at noting just how long, in real time, we were out playing at Phil's, and how long he ran his campaign. He got started in 1974, and gaming really didn't stop until the early 2000's, after he broke his hip and his health started to decline. And, of course, he'd been writing about and illustrating Tekumel since 1948...

The campaign seemed to have a number of 'stylistic phases', with the gaming style of the middle 1990s on being very different then the period 1978 - 1988, and the period 1974 - 1978 being different yet.

Comments?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 01, 2015, 12:01:49 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;845654
I can't say how Phil started characters later on, but in 1974 they sure as hell did not.

We washed ashore with our boats that we sold for a handful of coins, and about six words of Tsolyani.  The Southern Continent was completely Tekumel Incognita.  We were informed in no uncertain terms that we dared not venture out of the Foreigners' Quarter without an escort of at least one citizen to make sure we didn't accidentally break some social rule we didn't understand.  This proscription went until I think third level.  We had no clan, no friends, and no safe harbor.  That's why Moose, Anka'a, and I did indeed huddle together in a corner of a flophouse and take turns sleeping for safety's sake.

Starting out as a first level character in original EPT was rough.


While I'm tempted to follow in these footsteps, and have in the past, the reason for the change makes sense. A poorly represented clan should be a good compromise.
Someone to help but not a lot of help and mostly just provide contacts.
The characters being there should be more help to the local few than the clan is to them?
The assumption is that the characters are "heroes in the making" and will bolster the locals.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 01, 2015, 12:19:06 PM
I assume that in the Foreigner's Quarter there are vendor stalls like in the movies of streets in places like India. Outside of this area there is not?

Everything that can be sold is being sold and even if there is a clan house, being in the street improves the sales.
While rare or expensive products could be restricted to clan houses, I suspect that with so many people trying to survive, there are more "merchants" than clan houses.

We already discussed theft and disturbances in the street but what about faulty products?
I'm sure 'you buy it, you own it' is common but how common is outright fraud?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 01, 2015, 01:48:10 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;845763
While I'm tempted to follow in these footsteps, and have in the past, the reason for the change makes sense. A poorly represented clan should be a good compromise.
Someone to help but not a lot of help and mostly just provide contacts.
The characters being there should be more help to the local few than the clan is to them?
The assumption is that the characters are "heroes in the making" and will bolster the locals.
=


I'd agree with this; you have to start somewhere, and I think this is a good way to do it. Ultimately, what works for you and your players is what's 'right'; all I can do is tell you what we saw in our time, 1976 to 1988. There's an old theater saying "Perfection is the enemy of good enough", and that's what I do in my own campaign.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 01, 2015, 01:59:36 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;845770
I assume that in the Foreigner's Quarter there are vendor stalls like in the movies of streets in places like India. Outside of this area there is not?

Everything that can be sold is being sold and even if there is a clan house, being in the street improves the sales.
While rare or expensive products could be restricted to clan houses, I suspect that with so many people trying to survive, there are more "merchants" than clan houses.

We already discussed theft and disturbances in the street but what about faulty products?
I'm sure 'you buy it, you own it' is common but how common is outright fraud?
=



Yes, pretty much. The clans that sell retail goods will have 'store fronts' attached to their clan houses, and there are plenty of 'merchants' as well.

Outright fraud and shoddy goods are rare, since upset customers usually have direct recourse with sharp, pointy things. There are 'tourist traps', like out in the Tomb City, which have lots of very shady vendors of things like fake Eyes and amulets; these are common inside the Quarter, as well. Potential purchasers are always advised to make sure that they are getting what they expected, preferably before payment is made...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 01, 2015, 03:48:14 PM
Regarding the Professor's style of play changing a bit over time, it would be more surprising if it never changed one bit over 20+ years of play.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on August 01, 2015, 04:13:14 PM
Quote from: Bren;845803
Regarding the Professor's style of play changing a bit over time, it would be more surprising if it never changed one bit over 20+ years of play.


+1, and I'm not surprised at him getting the hang of it in 4 years, roughly;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 01, 2015, 05:29:17 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;845782
There's an old theater saying "Perfection is the enemy of good enough", and that's what I do in my own campaign.


Even though it took me years to learn that, I'm grateful to you for exposing me to theater people enough for it to sink in.  Painting buckles on the greaves of 25mm figures is all well and good, but if they can't be seen without a magnifier I need to ask myself why I'm doing it and if it's the most effective use of ever-scarcer time.

Having a wife with a BA in theater has been good for my model railroading, too.

I've taken the theater analogy a step further in gaming.  You know how sometimes there's a central action, and one player will wander off and start a conversation with a random NPC?  I ask the PC why they're doing that.  If they have a plan, I'll help.  But if they're just bored and poking at the edge of the stage flat, the conversation goes more like this:

PC:  Hi, I'm (character name.)
NPC: I'm Bob.
PC:  What brings you here?
NPC:  A day at scale and a catered lunch, luv.
PC:  What are you doing?
NPC:  The director said "go get a costume and stand over there and look like a soldier," so that's what I'm doing.

Et cetera.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 01, 2015, 11:16:23 PM
Quote from: Bren;845803
Regarding the Professor's style of play changing a bit over time, it would be more surprising if it never changed one bit over 20+ years of play.


Yep. Phil was pretty consistent, once he felt confident; the Tekumel we lived in endured for a decade of game play. Phil was never worried about the world-setting; he was not an RPG gamer - very few of us were, back then - and was terrified that gamers would laugh at him for not getting the game 'right'. Once he realized that we, both as a group and as individuals, didn't really care about game mechanics or rules per se - heresy, I know! - he was a much happier GM.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 01, 2015, 11:17:37 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;845811
+1, and I'm not surprised at him getting the hang of it in 4 years, roughly;).


Agreed. It took a while, and we had to hold his hand a bit, but it all came together after a while. And lasted for a long time, I'm happy to say.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 01, 2015, 11:23:54 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;845896
...he was not an RPG gamer - very few of us were, back then - and was terrified that gamers would laugh at him for not getting the game 'right'. Once he realized that we, both as a group and as individuals, didn't really care about game mechanics or rules per se - heresy, I know! - he was a much happier GM.
One of my favorite GMs doesn't much care about the game mechanics. Me, I like some mechanics. In large part so that the world maintains consistency.

In popular media you often see inconsistent threat and power levels. The thing that was a threat last week or at the start of the episode ends up easy to defeat at the end of the episode even though little has changed in the intervening 45 minutes of show. Too much of that and I stop watching. Too much of that in an RPG and I no longer want to make sense of the world since it clearly doesn't really make sense. It just makes drama. Its probably one of many reasons why drama driven mechanics like Fate sound just awful to me.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 01, 2015, 11:24:08 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;845896
Yep. Phil was pretty consistent, once he felt confident; the Tekumel we lived in endured for a decade of game play. Phil was never worried about the world-setting; he was not an RPG gamer - very few of us were, back then - and was terrified that gamers would laugh at him for not getting the game 'right'. Once he realized that we, both as a group and as individuals, didn't really care about game mechanics or rules per se - heresy, I know! - he was a much happier GM.


In retrospect, I think part of it was the whole vibe of the 1975-1985 era.  This crappily produced dumb little game made bucketloads of money, and a LOT of us were convinced that we could make a BETTER game and make even MORE bucketloads of money.

What we didn't realize back then was that sometimes, lightning strikes.  Just like George Lucas' silly little space movie made buckets of money, D&D just happened to hit the right nerve at the right time.  Much like Star Wars it really was a one-time phenomenon.

But we didn't know that back then, and everybody wanted to write "the BETTER D&D that will make all that money."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 01, 2015, 11:25:09 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;845827
Even though it took me years to learn that, I'm grateful to you for exposing me to theater people enough for it to sink in.  Painting buckles on the greaves of 25mm figures is all well and good, but if they can't be seen without a magnifier I need to ask myself why I'm doing it and if it's the most effective use of ever-scarcer time.

Having a wife with a BA in theater has been good for my model railroading, too.

I've taken the theater analogy a step further in gaming.  You know how sometimes there's a central action, and one player will wander off and start a conversation with a random NPC?  I ask the PC why they're doing that.  If they have a plan, I'll help.  But if they're just bored and poking at the edge of the stage flat, the conversation goes more like this:

PC:  Hi, I'm (character name.)
NPC: I'm Bob.
PC:  What brings you here?
NPC:  A day at scale and a catered lunch, luv.
PC:  What are you doing?
NPC:  The director said "go get a costume and stand over there and look like a soldier," so that's what I'm doing.

Et cetera.


And there we are. One of the reasons that I am so hated in some 'serious gaming' circles is that I approach my games - of all genres - as little 'mini theatrical productions'. I do the very best I can, within the budget constraints I have to work with, to put on the very best 'show' that I can. See also my videos and photos, especially from Gary Con. I put in the details where they are needed for the players, and keep the rest of the 'props', 'scenery', and 'extras' off out of their way. For me, it's all about game play - the 'audience experience', if you will, continuing the theater analogy.

"I've got some dice!"
"Dad's got a table!!"
"Let's put on a game!!!"

:)

I find it to be a lot of fun, and so do players in my games, but it seems to make some folks' pee-pees fall off... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 01, 2015, 11:29:49 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;845901
But we didn't know that back then, and everybody wanted to write "the BETTER D&D that will make all that money."
Interesting. I never thought of the motivation for improved design as financial.

I remember a phase where I and everyone I knew who was interested in systems searched for or tried to create a "perfect" system. I became a lot more satisfied with systems in the 1980s when I realized that the quest for a perfect system was provably impossible. (Thanks Kurt Gödel!)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;845902
...but it seems to make some folks' pee-pees fall off.
Well that's never a good thing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 01, 2015, 11:32:31 PM
Quote from: Bren;845903

Well that's never a good thing.


Much like a failed morale check, if it happens to you it's an atrocity, if it happens to somebody else, it's frickin' hilarious.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 01, 2015, 11:34:55 PM
Quote from: Bren;845903
Interesting. I never thought of the motivation for improved design as financial.

It's really hard to describe that era.  D&D just fucking exploded.  At Origins in 76 the D&D tournament had 250 people, and that was just the beginning of the phenomenon; over the next five years it only got bigger.

It's the same phenomenon you see in fantasy & sf books... "Hell, ** I ** can do better than THIS piece of shit, and it got published!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 01, 2015, 11:43:33 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;845905
It's really hard to describe that era.
Well I was there. I just never found RPGs as any kind of a monetary temptation.

Quote
D&D just fucking exploded.  At Origins in 76 the D&D tournament had 250 people...
But I wasn't there. I don't think I went to a single gaming Con until the mid 1990s and I've never gone to any of the big Cons.

Quote
It's the same phenomenon you see in fantasy & sf books... "Hell, ** I ** can do better than THIS piece of shit, and it got published!"
Well sure I can write better than some published authors. But I don't want to do the work that it would take for me to actually write a book. And I'm OK with that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 01, 2015, 11:46:35 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;845905
It's really hard to describe that era.  D&D just fucking exploded.  At Origins in 76 the D&D tournament had 250 people, and that was just the beginning of the phenomenon; over the next five years it only got bigger.

It's the same phenomenon you see in fantasy & sf books... "Hell, ** I ** can do better than THIS piece of shit, and it got published!"


I'd agree with all of the above. The money was a very big factor in the explosive expansion of the market, and what kinds of stuff companies would sell. Some guys got it right, and some didn't.

And there was a huge amount of "If those two losers can do a game that sells, then we can do better because we're smarter then they are", both from gamers and from game company owners and authors.

Neither Gary or Dave were all that respected at the time; I don't think it was until they were safely dead that they got the kind of 'professional' recognition that they deserved. Just my opinion, of course... :)

Heck, I got out of historical gaming because of the crap like this that the two of them took from their 'peers' in the hobby and in the industry - Baltimore Origins back about 1980 was enough for me...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 02, 2015, 12:21:05 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;845908
I'd agree with all of the above. The money was a very big factor in the explosive expansion of the market, and what kinds of stuff companies would sell. Some guys got it right, and some didn't.

And there was a huge amount of "If those two losers can do a game that sells, then we can do better because we're smarter then they are", both from gamers and from game company owners and authors.

Neither Gary or Dave were all that respected at the time; I don't think it was until they were safely dead that they got the kind of 'professional' recognition that they deserved. Just my opinion, of course... :)

Heck, I got out of historical gaming because of the crap like this that the two of them took from their 'peers' in the hobby and in the industry - Baltimore Origins back about 1980 was enough for me...


Much like the thread in this site about people being embarrassed about D&D, I think a lot of wargamers back then were embarrassed that RPGs were getting all the press.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 02, 2015, 12:44:18 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;845911
Much like the thread in this site about people being embarrassed about D&D, I think a lot of wargamers back then were embarrassed that RPGs were getting all the press.


Oh, yes; very much so! Remember the historicals guys having fits over being described as men playing with little toy soldiers, and their agonized "NO! NO! We are doing Serious Historical Simulation and Vitally Important Research!!!" when they could get anyone's attention?

I have to admit that when I started hearing about The Serious Artform of RPGs, it seemed like history was repeating itself... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 02, 2015, 12:58:03 AM
Deja Vu all over again.

Heck, it wasn't until the 1980s that model railroaders stopped being embarrassed...  you've read some of the old MRs from the 40s and 50s, haven't you?

Yeah, I'm a grown man playing with toy trains.  Deal with it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 02, 2015, 01:12:09 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;845918
Deja Vu all over again.

Heck, it wasn't until the 1980s that model railroaders stopped being embarrassed...  you've read some of the old MRs from the 40s and 50s, haven't you?

Yeah, I'm a grown man playing with toy trains.  Deal with it.


Yep. Somethings never seem to change, do they?

Yeah, the old MRs are pretty funny to read now, but also pretty sad with the logical gymnastics needed to 'justify' the hobby.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 02, 2015, 01:25:51 AM
Its odd that sports fans so seldom seem to feel the same need to justify their hobby.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 02, 2015, 09:30:29 AM
I suspect that there is a lack of toiletries most everywhere so, besides the rich and their personal butt wipers,  is the left hand used?
Are there issues with gesturing with the left hand? Using it for other things?

Are bunk beds common? What about sharing a bed?

Is gambling pervasive? Public drunkenness ignored or embarrassing?

I assume that things given at shrines and temples are used by the priesthood?
Taking the offerings isn't acceptable but with mostly disengaged deities, is it enforced by the common people or just the priesthood?
Are offerings intentionally things the priests can use or mostly things specifically for the deity only?

Unless you intentionally draw attention to yourself, do people in a crowd ignore each other?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on August 02, 2015, 10:16:51 AM
Quote from: Bren;845900
One of my favorite GMs doesn't much care about the game mechanics. Me, I like some mechanics. In large part so that the world maintains consistency.

In popular media you often see inconsistent threat and power levels. The thing that was a threat last week or at the start of the episode ends up easy to defeat at the end of the episode even though little has changed in the intervening 45 minutes of show. Too much of that and I stop watching. Too much of that in an RPG and I no longer want to make sense of the world since it clearly doesn't really make sense. It just makes drama. Its probably one of many reasons why drama driven mechanics like Fate sound just awful to me.

Same here, on all accounts. Although I must note that changes in psychological state can bring about a sudden defeat:).

Quote from: Bren;845903
Interesting. I never thought of the motivation for improved design as financial.

Same here.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;845908
I'd agree with all of the above. The money was a very big factor in the explosive expansion of the market, and what kinds of stuff companies would sell. Some guys got it right, and some didn't.

That surprises me, frankly.
But then I wasn't there for impossibility reasons, so I must take your word on it.

Quote from: Bren;845922
Its odd that sports fans so seldom seem to feel the same need to justify their hobby.

Sports produce an observable result and bring positive changes in the practitioners, not to mention there's a long tradition in using them to resolve differences;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 02, 2015, 10:37:18 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;845989
I suspect that there is a lack of toiletries most everywhere so, besides the rich and their personal butt wipers,  is the left hand used?
Are there issues with gesturing with the left hand? Using it for other things?

Are bunk beds common? What about sharing a bed?

Is gambling pervasive? Public drunkenness ignored or embarrassing?

I assume that things given at shrines and temples are used by the priesthood?
Taking the offerings isn't acceptable but with mostly disengaged deities, is it enforced by the common people or just the priesthood?
Are offerings intentionally things the priests can use or mostly things specifically for the deity only?

Unless you intentionally draw attention to yourself, do people in a crowd ignore each other?
=


OOOooo!!! More great questions!!! Thank you! :)

Yes; as a result, the left hand is never used for eating or 'polite' purposes. We do have soap, hot water, and that kind of thing, but shampoo and conditioner are unknown.

Generally, using the left hand in ordinary polite society is frowned on; there are no restrictions in practical use, such as working or fighting.

I've never heard of bunk beds; with Phil, it was normally a sleeping mat on the floor or on a sleeping platform. Sailors use hammocks, or berths in cabins with storage below. This seems to be pretty common all over the Five Empires, and in most places beyond. One interesting exception is in Nlyssa, where the Nlyss favor large raised beds - a clan / warband chief and most of his immediate family will sleep in it, under piles of furs; mostly to stay warm in the high mountains, I think. Oh - another one is in M'morcha, where the locals all favor raised bedsteads or platforms for sleeping; puff spiders, for which the place is (in)famous, can't climb vertical surfaces, so everybody sleeps up off the floor.

Sharing beds is pretty common; it's more likely the lower you go in the social strata. It's one way to keep track of the kids, for example. Higher-status and wealthier clans have more individual and separate quarters; kids in their teens are usually housed in what amounts to dormitories, with results familiar to anyone who's lived in a college dorm room. A wise visitor makes sure to slip the major-domo a little consideration in order to get a guest room as far away from the teen-agers' quarters as possible...

Gambling is very common in the Five Empires, and is a feature of most feasts and parties.( I made Phil a set of Kevuk dice, ages ago...) Betting is very popular in most circles, from what I've seen.

Public drunkeness is not all that common; one does almost all one's drinking in polite company in one's own or friends' clanhouses, if one has any status or pretensions to same. You do get a lot of very patient servants carrying the drunks home in their palanquins after parties, of course. Lower-status people usually 'stay in' when they drink, mostly because it's just a little too risky to go out while incapacitated.

Socially, it's usually ignored, unless the drunk gets annoying and starts a fight or something.

Yes, generally offerings are 'in kind' or in cash, both of which can be used by the temple. Cash usually goes into the temple accounts, while food and such goes to the kitchens after the ceremonies are over. Nothing goes to waste.

I'd saw, from my time with Phil, that offerings are not 'enforced'; they are a tradition and custom, which everyone follows. I usually offer something at my temple, but I also makes sure to give a little something at the Temple of Avanthe, just in case I need to get stitched up after a battle. 'Demanding' donations would be considered very low-class, if not outright unsociable, and a priest or priestess trying this on would soon find themselves transferred to a much nice temple for a very long time. It's just 'not done'.

Some items are deity-specific, like weapons at the Temple of Vimuhla or eels at he Temple of Dlamelish; She also prefers silver coins, while the Temple of Sarku prefers copper ones; Karakan likes gold ones, 'cause they go with the decor (red and gold, mostly).

Generally, people leave other people to their business; one would always politely greet somebody you know, and if you have any connections you'd pass the time of day for a few moments discussing your clans and families. Higher-class / status people tend to have a lot less to do with lower class / status people, and vice versa. There isn't a lot of social mixing that goes on, especially out in public. Ignoring somebody, of any status, is considered a bit rude; a polite nod or smile for people, and a bow or salute, depending on relative status and rank, is considered polite.

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 02, 2015, 10:40:27 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;845991

That surprises me, frankly.
But then I wasn't there for impossibility reasons, so I must take your word on it.


Well, a lot of people at the really wanted to cash in on the bubble. Everybody thought that if two guys like Gary and Dave could do it, then they could - and do it better, too! Just ask them! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 02, 2015, 02:32:39 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;845998
I'd saw, from my time with Phil, that offerings are not 'enforced'; they are a tradition and custom, which everyone follows. I usually offer something at my temple, but I also makes sure to give a little something at the Temple of Avanthe, just in case I need to get stitched up after a battle. 'Demanding' donations would be considered very low-class, if not outright unsociable, and a priest or priestess trying this on would soon find themselves transferred to a much nice temple for a very long time. It's just 'not done'.

Hummm...
I think that the priests are the "professionals" and ensure that a "good word" is put in for you in the daily prayers when you give an offering.
What I meant by "enforced" was preventing the offerings from being stolen before being accepted by a priest.
Having your offering stolen before a priest can acknowledge it, would be a concern.

Preventing it from being stolen afterwards should be what temple guards are for.  

Which brings up the question. Must offerings be made at a shrine or temple "to count" or at least by a priest (or magic user")?

If you consider Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny, then shrines and temple are critical connection points.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;845998

Does this help?

Absolutely.

Simple little things can easily be added to a game but give a lot of flavor.
Picking the right ones for the "right" flavor is helpful.

Piling into the same bed can cause some awkward situations in the morning (without being pornographic). Generating "connections" gives helpful game hooks without them being forced on characters.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on August 02, 2015, 03:50:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;845999
Well, a lot of people at the really wanted to cash in on the bubble. Everybody thought that if two guys like Gary and Dave could do it, then they could - and do it better, too! Just ask them! :)


I'll pass on asking anyone, it's not like I care whether they wrote for love, for money or for love of money:). Personally, I've never heard that from a publisher, that's all.
Then again, I simply wasn't around during said bubble, so I can believe it was different back then;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 02, 2015, 05:47:15 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;846072
I'll pass on asking anyone, it's not like I care whether they wrote for love, for money or for love of money:). Personally, I've never heard that from a publisher, that's all.
Then again, I simply wasn't around during said bubble, so I can believe it was different back then;).


Remember that the "Gold Rush Days" were already fading by 1984 or 1985, to the point were GAMA meetings were about "how can we get the industry to recover."

Also, this was back when a lot of shit was still produced at the local Insty-Prints with black and white art.  Production values weren't nearly as high, and a LOT of stuff back then is, quite frankly, shit.

D&D went from "so famous it was in the #1 box office hit movie of all history" to "whut?" in about 3 or 4 years.  Sic transit gloria mundi.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 02, 2015, 05:48:42 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;846053

Piling into the same bed can cause some awkward situations in the morning (without being pornographic). Generating "connections" gives helpful game hooks without them being forced on characters.
=


...you DO realize this is exactly what most of the human race has done throughout most of history?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on August 02, 2015, 07:10:52 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;846107
Remember that the "Gold Rush Days" were already fading by 1984 or 1985, to the point were GAMA meetings were about "how can we get the industry to recover."

Also, this was back when a lot of shit was still produced at the local Insty-Prints with black and white art.  Production values weren't nearly as high, and a LOT of stuff back then is, quite frankly, shit.

D&D went from "so famous it was in the #1 box office hit movie of all history" to "whut?" in about 3 or 4 years.  Sic transit gloria mundi.

I understand that. It's just that I've never spoken to an RPG publisher who said he's publishing RPGs for the money, because he believed they're more likely to sell than a normal book:).
Then again, 1984 is 15 years before I got into the hobby, and that's enough for the attitudes to have changed radically in the meantime;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 02, 2015, 07:50:07 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;846109
...you DO realize this is exactly what most of the human race has done throughout most of history?


It's not always about what I know (or think I know) ...

While I will do it the way I want, if I can do it the way you did, why not?
(Since that worked for years for your group "at the source".)
I just need to know how you did it.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 02, 2015, 09:34:13 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;846053
Hummm...
I think that the priests are the "professionals" and ensure that a "good word" is put in for you in the daily prayers when you give an offering.
What I meant by "enforced" was preventing the offerings from being stolen before being accepted by a priest.
Having your offering stolen before a priest can acknowledge it, would be a concern.

Preventing it from being stolen afterwards should be what temple guards are for.  

Which brings up the question. Must offerings be made at a shrine or temple "to count" or at least by a priest (or magic user")?

If you consider Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny, then shrines and temple are critical connection points.


Absolutely.

Simple little things can easily be added to a game but give a lot of flavor.
Picking the right ones for the "right" flavor is helpful.

Piling into the same bed can cause some awkward situations in the morning (without being pornographic). Generating "connections" gives helpful game hooks without them being forced on characters.
=


Right, gotcha!

Yes, very much so. The clergy will always mention you in the daily services, after you offer something up.

Generally, offerings are pretty safe; that's why you have clan guards, retainers, servants, etc. to get you to and from the temple. Poorer people tend to go in groups, so they are pretty safe as well. And the temple guards can interpret their jurisdiction pretty liberally, too.

Yes, usually offerings 'count' when made at a shrine or temple; My habit as a GM is to make a Divine Intervention roll otherwise, usually with humorous results. I should note that a family will have a little shrine to their deity at home, as well, and this will also 'count'; the local temple will be happy to send around a junior priest or priestess to officiate at private ceremonies at home.

"Lord of Light" was one of Phil's favorites; he introduced me to it.

Agreed about the little things making all the difference!!!

Yes, waking up next to somebody you don't know is always a great moment. I had this happen to me a number of times; the Senior Wife has a very droll sense of humor, and has a habit of getting me married off to her friends without mentioning it to me until 'later'. It makes for some very good comic relief, as well as possible plot elements.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 02, 2015, 09:36:37 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;846128
I understand that. It's just that I've never spoken to an RPG publisher who said he's publishing RPGs for the money, because he believed they're more likely to sell than a normal book:).
Then again, 1984 is 15 years before I got into the hobby, and that's enough for the attitudes to have changed radically in the meantime;).


Yep. It was a very different time and place, back then, and the 'industry' had really changed - for the better, if you want my opinion - by the middle 1980s. The very early days were very fast and loose, and very 'Wild West'. With no sheriff, either.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 02, 2015, 11:02:49 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;846128
I understand that. It's just that I've never spoken to an RPG publisher who said he's publishing RPGs for the money, because he believed they're more likely to sell than a normal book:).
Then again, 1984 is 15 years before I got into the hobby, and that's enough for the attitudes to have changed radically in the meantime;).


Yes.  By 2000 people were starting to realize and articulate that "you too can make tens and tens of dollars in the RPG industry."

Not to mention that computers, the Internet, and PDFs changed everything.  If I ever finish my current game project ("Source of the Nile" meets "Dying Earth") I won't even bother putting a price tag on it; I'll hang the PDF out there with a tip jar.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 03, 2015, 07:55:57 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;846164
Yes.  By 2000 people were starting to realize and articulate that "you too can make tens and tens of dollars in the RPG industry."

Not to mention that computers, the Internet, and PDFs changed everything.  If I ever finish my current game project ("Source of the Nile" meets "Dying Earth") I won't even bother putting a price tag on it; I'll hang the PDF out there with a tip jar.


Agreed. I'm looking at doing the same thing with "To Serve The Petal Throne", as I strongly doubt it'd even pay for itself if I went with an 'anything else' version. I'm writing the thing for my grandkids, nieces, and nephews more then anything else at this point. If other people like, then so much the better. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 03, 2015, 01:46:23 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;846227
If other people like, then so much the better. :)

I suspect that a few others may also be interested in your tales.
=

While I know that priests and followers of Ksarul jealously guard information and tech,
how close to Deathworld 2 by Harry Harrison are things in general?

Is it hard to leave a clan on good terms if you know their secret knowledge?

Would a clan try to win away members from clans that they want knowledge from?
I assume there is less issue between allied clans but not all are allied.

If this assumption is correct then can I also assume this holds true for Temples?
Priests can follow the teaching of multiple allied deities but opposing ones are not as welcomed?
The higher they rank the more focused they become on one, and also following opposing causes more drama?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 04, 2015, 09:04:05 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;846282
I suspect that a few others may also be interested in your tales.
=

While I know that priests and followers of Ksarul jealously guard information and tech,
how close to Deathworld 2 by Harry Harrison are things in general?

Is it hard to leave a clan on good terms if you know their secret knowledge?

Would a clan try to win away members from clans that they want knowledge from?
I assume there is less issue between allied clans but not all are allied.

If this assumption is correct then can I also assume this holds true for Temples?
Priests can follow the teaching of multiple allied deities but opposing ones are not as welcomed?
The higher they rank the more focused they become on one, and also following opposing causes more drama?
=


Well, I'd like to think that my book might be of interest to people... :)

Taking it from the top:

Not as bad as that; yes, clans, temples and the Imperium don't give away their secrets casually, but for the right price...

Normally, you don't leave a clan; you are born into one, live your life in it, and die in it. The only ways to 'leave' a clan are to die, or be expelled for really serious issues - and for which the clan usually makes sure you get dead, before you can say much of anything. Your death will be recorded by the clan as having come from 'natural causes', and the taxes will be all paid up.

You can certainly join a clan; see also Gronan's career. You get invited to join a clan by the clan, after they get the idea that you will be A Valued Asset to the clan. If they find out that you are not what they think you are, it's normally off to the farm in the country, where you are kept out of sight. Treated decently, but kept out of sight. If you're a real cad, it's off to fight the Ssu with you at best, or a hole in the basement floor at worst.

Or my career; Phil forgot to give me a clan for years, and it was always assumed around the table that I was from some poor but decent clan in the Chakas. When the subject finally got dealt with - Mirusiya asked about it - Phil mumbled a lot, mouthed his cigar, and told me that I was Eye of the Flame. Like a good clan boy, I made sure to forward a portion of my pay to the clan, and all was good. Later on, after Mirusiya wanted to do 'something nice' for me, I was invited to join Iron Helm; Iron Helm had to pay Eye of the Flame a fee for the loss of my services, and I did have to pay both clans some fees for all the paperwork. Eventually, the two clans negotiated a deal where I was actually in both, for tax purposes, and I made sure that a portion of my Tsolyani revenues went to both clans for their percentage. (I'm still carried as a staff officer with Searing Flame, and I think with Mnashu of Thri'il - ask Gronan, it's his legion. I also get a stipend from the Temple of Vimuhla, too.)

One clan usually does not try to 'poach' another's members; it's considered rude. If one has skills that another clan wants, the two clans will negotiate a deal and you'll be told to drop by such-and-such a clan to help them out. You'll be told by your clan what you can and can't talk about, and this is normally very well respected. The clans take a very long view, and today's ally may be tomorrow's opponent - and vice versa. This kind of deal also will happen - albeit rarely - between opposing clans, when they have a problem that requires cooperation; both clans will grit their teeth and try very hard to play nice, but both will be very careful about the whole thing.

Priests and Priestesses of a Temple do not follow (in the sense I think you meant) anything other their their own deity. The Temples really get bent over the idea, and will throw a fit. This does not include things like a Priest of Sarku making an offering at the Temple of Avanthe to help his pregnant wife, or a Priestess of Dilinala making an offering to the Temple of Thumis or Ksarul for help on that exam she's got coming up in the temple academy. In either case, both would be welcomed to the temple grounds as a respected colleague; they would not be shown around the place freely, and they would not expect anything like that.

Regarding rank and focus, it all depends on the individual. Yes, we do get hardcore fanatics in the temples, but they can be of any rank or status. Usually, the clergy is pretty tolerant, as the Imperium regards any violations of the Great Concordat with the utmost seriousness - and severity, too!

Is this helping? Am I explaining things intelligently for you?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 04, 2015, 10:27:18 AM
You better believe the pay chit for Chirine's stipend as aide-de-camp to the Kerdu of the Legion of Mnashu of Thri'il is faithfully logged on time and in full.  I have no intention of hunting for a new aide-de-camp at this stage of my career.  Besides, they're all so green.

And again, we see how Temple, Clan, Legion, and political party can interact; though Chrine and I were from different and technically "opposite" temples, we were both Imperial soldiers, and politically speaking, both members of the "Imperialist" faction; that is, "we serve the Petal Throne."

"The Emperor says, 'Chirine, fight,' and you fight."

"Oh, I do, I do."

"Well then, let us go be killed as we are ordered.  Is life worth so many questions?"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 04, 2015, 12:18:37 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;846469
Well, I'd like to think that my book might be of interest to people... :)

Taking it from the top:

Not as bad as that; yes, clans, temples and the Imperium don't give away their secrets casually, but for the right price...

Normally, you don't leave a clan; you are born into one, live your life in it, and die in it. The only ways to 'leave' a clan are to die, or be expelled for really serious issues - and for which the clan usually makes sure you get dead, before you can say much of anything. Your death will be recorded by the clan as having come from 'natural causes', and the taxes will be all paid up.

You can certainly join a clan; see also Gronan's career. You get invited to join a clan by the clan, after they get the idea that you will be A Valued Asset to the clan. If they find out that you are not what they think you are, it's normally off to the farm in the country, where you are kept out of sight. Treated decently, but kept out of sight. If you're a real cad, it's off to fight the Ssu with you at best, or a hole in the basement floor at worst.

Or my career; Phil forgot to give me a clan for years, and it was always assumed around the table that I was from some poor but decent clan in the Chakas. When the subject finally got dealt with - Mirusiya asked about it - Phil mumbled a lot, mouthed his cigar, and told me that I was Eye of the Flame. Like a good clan boy, I made sure to forward a portion of my pay to the clan, and all was good. Later on, after Mirusiya wanted to do 'something nice' for me, I was invited to join Iron Helm; Iron Helm had to pay Eye of the Flame a fee for the loss of my services, and I did have to pay both clans some fees for all the paperwork. Eventually, the two clans negotiated a deal where I was actually in both, for tax purposes, and I made sure that a portion of my Tsolyani revenues went to both clans for their percentage. (I'm still carried as a staff officer with Searing Flame, and I think with Mnashu of Thri'il - ask Gronan, it's his legion. I also get a stipend from the Temple of Vimuhla, too.)

One clan usually does not try to 'poach' another's members; it's considered rude. If one has skills that another clan wants, the two clans will negotiate a deal and you'll be told to drop by such-and-such a clan to help them out. You'll be told by your clan what you can and can't talk about, and this is normally very well respected. The clans take a very long view, and today's ally may be tomorrow's opponent - and vice versa. This kind of deal also will happen - albeit rarely - between opposing clans, when they have a problem that requires cooperation; both clans will grit their teeth and try very hard to play nice, but both will be very careful about the whole thing.

Priests and Priestesses of a Temple do not follow (in the sense I think you meant) anything other their their own deity. The Temples really get bent over the idea, and will throw a fit. This does not include things like a Priest of Sarku making an offering at the Temple of Avanthe to help his pregnant wife, or a Priestess of Dilinala making an offering to the Temple of Thumis or Ksarul for help on that exam she's got coming up in the temple academy. In either case, both would be welcomed to the temple grounds as a respected colleague; they would not be shown around the place freely, and they would not expect anything like that.

Regarding rank and focus, it all depends on the individual. Yes, we do get hardcore fanatics in the temples, but they can be of any rank or status. Usually, the clergy is pretty tolerant, as the Imperium regards any violations of the Great Concordat with the utmost seriousness - and severity, too!

Is this helping? Am I explaining things intelligently for you?


Hoy Uncle,

I have found you. Auntie sent me to find you...She said something about having to post on the workbench...!!!

Seriously. Chirine and OG, Gentlemen et all, thank you for this wonderful thread. I have become a member because of it. I have questions. I will keep you busy. If you like...

PS there are those out there who share the same loves you do :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 04, 2015, 01:43:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;846469
Is this helping? Am I explaining things intelligently for you?

Certainly, to both. It is good to know how far my branch is from the main trunk.

Speaking of fire and flames... if a wildfire is started, how is it handled and who is held responsible?
Arson is clear but accidental fires?

How far up the social ladder do you have to be to get something besides Dna-grain porridge with tea three times a day?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 05, 2015, 08:20:40 AM
I assume that people are just as deceitful as anywhere else but how does honor fit into this framework?

Is a person's word their bond or do things need witnesses? documented?
Is the spirit of an agreement upheld or only the actual wording?
Would an honorable person outright lie or just twist the truth?
When caught in a lie, how is that handled?
Is lying to further the goals of the clan accepted? at least by the clan?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 05, 2015, 08:44:08 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;846481
You better believe the pay chit for Chirine's stipend as aide-de-camp to the Kerdu of the Legion of Mnashu of Thri'il is faithfully logged on time and in full.  I have no intention of hunting for a new aide-de-camp at this stage of my career.  Besides, they're all so green.

And again, we see how Temple, Clan, Legion, and political party can interact; though Chrine and I were from different and technically "opposite" temples, we were both Imperial soldiers, and politically speaking, both members of the "Imperialist" faction; that is, "we serve the Petal Throne."

"The Emperor says, 'Chirine, fight,' and you fight."

"Oh, I do, I do."

"Well then, let us go be killed as we are ordered.  Is life worth so many questions?"


Gods. Save us from young officers. Anyway, being carried on the rolls of the Glorious General's legion is a nice status symbol for me and my clan(s), and the same is true of him and his. Once one has a reputation for doing heroic things - or in my case, being very, very good at logistics - one is a hot commodity. The commute can be a bit much, but with the late civil war over it's not so bad. And the Glorious General gets his legion allied with mine, same as the 1st The Royal Dragoons were allied with the 2nd Dragoons (The Royal Scots Greys) were fast friends on the battlefield and friendly rivals in garrison - something about that little charge at Waterloo... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 05, 2015, 08:49:31 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;846497
Hoy Uncle,

I have found you. Auntie sent me to find you...She said something about having to post on the workbench...!!!

Seriously. Chirine and OG, Gentlemen et all, thank you for this wonderful thread. I have become a member because of it. I have questions. I will keep you busy. If you like...

PS there are those out there who share the same loves you do :0)


Well, hello! Welcome to our little portion of the forum; please do feel free to ask anything you'd like - it's why I am here, and thanks to Bren for starting this thread. (Did I get that right, sir?)

I will be trying to get back to my little Blog as soon as I can. I'm having some issues with Google's Blogger, and also we just had a new internet provider come in and get us connected to their service. The Work bench is not dead, just in a little hiatus.

The nice thing about this forum is that it feels more 'conversational' to me; the blog is a lot of fun for me, but I think it's a little bit more 'static' in feel as I tend to do wordy little articles and then people are kind enough to comment on them. Great way to show photos, though! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 05, 2015, 09:14:15 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;846509
Certainly, to both. It is good to know how far my branch is from the main trunk.

Speaking of fire and flames... if a wildfire is started, how is it handled and who is held responsible?
Arson is clear but accidental fires?

How far up the social ladder do you have to be to get something besides Dna-grain porridge with tea three times a day?
=


Understood. The analogy that I like to use is a broad river; Phil's novels and short stories are the 'deepwater channel' in the middle of the river, and his two game groups were just to either side of that. My two campaigns that ran in parallel with his in the late 1980s would be to either side of those, with my later 2000's game group picking up where they left off and in parallel to Phil's for as long as his gaming lasted. My book about gaming with him starts in that deepwater channel, and flows along with his as a subsurface current since the story is being told from my personal viewpoint and not really from his. The events are the same, but you get my 'take' on them as well as all of the surrounding 'backstory' that we saw go by in his 'meta-game'.

Accidental fires are everybody's problem, and everybody turns out to deal with them. There are no organized 'fire brigades' in cities to deal with this problem so you can lose an entire quarter or even a city if things get out of hand. The only good news is that because cities are pretty spread out, you get lots of natural firebreaks to hep stop the flames.

Responsibility for accidental fires is pretty diffuse, unless there's a very clear culprit - "It's the Gods." Now if Mrs. O'Leary was the problem, her clan would likely face some tough demands for shamtla from any injured parties.

You're right about arson; the Imperium will execute the culprit, assuming that there's anything left of the culprit after the injured clans and temples get through with the arsonist.

Food! Glorious food!!!

Actually, good question! You can be all over the social spectrum on this. I get grain porridge three times a day when I am on campaign with the legion as part of my daily rations; we add to this whatever we can carry up in the baggage train or can forage from the locals. (A good stew is considered A Very Big Deal, on campaign!) Back in garrison, or in the clanhouse, the food is usually much more varied - and hot, too!

This varies a lot - urban poor are lucky to get the tea (there are various varieties, with a Yan Koryani version very highly regarded and highly priced - I think it tastes like turpentine, myself), while a low status farmer will have a pretty good diet as he or she is right at the source. So, I guess the best way to answer you is to say that the good stuff starts pretty low on the ladder, especially out in the country, but pretty high in the Foreigners' Quarters of cities. Same thing out in the 'sticks'; most people eat pretty well, at about the same level as you'd find in Ancient Rome or South Asia, but the supply chain is pretty shaky.

I hope this helps; I can get really detailed, and drive you quite mad - Tekumelyani cooking is a really strong interest of mine, and we do experiment every now and then. Try 'Naan', if you can get it... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 05, 2015, 09:32:16 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;846714
I assume that people are just as deceitful as anywhere else but how does honor fit into this framework?

Is a person's word their bond or do things need witnesses? documented?
Is the spirit of an agreement upheld or only the actual wording?
Would an honorable person outright lie or just twist the truth?
When caught in a lie, how is that handled?
Is lying to further the goals of the clan accepted? at least by the clan?
=


I'd say you are correct. 'Honor', or 'Noble Action', generally advises people not to be dishonest in their dealings. Out and out lying is not usually done by people; evasion and prevarication certainly is, but fraud and the like is not as the consequences of getting caught are normally pretty severe. And, one tries not to place one's associates in positions where they would have to lie, either; I do not ask Gronan about the secrets of his clan or temple, and he doesn't ask me awkward questions as well. there may very well be situations where one has to outright lie, but there had better be pretty compelling reasons why one has to. For example, I'd expect a prisoner to lie to me about his associates to protect them; I'd normally just smile, and get the information some other way.

Between persons who trust each other, it's 'word is bond'; with people one does not trust, the agreements can get pretty elaborate, with documents, witnesses, third-party 'referees', and all sorts of other complications. Same thing for the 'spirit'/'letter' of the agreement - it's all about how far you trust them. If I was negotiating with a 'friendly', things would be to the spirit; with a 'hostile', to the 'letter'.

Generally, an honorable person says nothing in this kind of a situation - the running joke in Phil's game sessions was to say "I admire the fine Engsvanyali traceries in the ceiling carvings..." Prevaricate, tap-dance, misdirect, but don't lie. Getting caught can mean anything from a smile-with-apology to paying shamtla to a fatal duel in the arena, depending on how bad the lie hurts somebody.

Generally, clans will prefer that one not lie; it's bad for the clan's reputation, and it will hurt the clan's business and social standing. Harchar may be a buccaneer and smuggler, and the despair of the Blazoned Sail clan, but he's an honest buccaneer and smuggler and can be trusted to deliver the (usually highly illegal) goods. Arneson was very proud of the fact that he never lied to a customs official - he could wheedle a duck off a tarn, to quote my Scots ancestors... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 05, 2015, 06:24:43 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;846722
Well, hello! Welcome to our little portion of the forum; please do feel free to ask anything you'd like - it's why I am here, and thanks to Bren for starting this thread. (Did I get that right, sir?)

I will be trying to get back to my little Blog as soon as I can. I'm having some issues with Google's Blogger, and also we just had a new internet provider come in and get us connected to their service. The Work bench is not dead, just in a little hiatus.

The nice thing about this forum is that it feels more 'conversational' to me; the blog is a lot of fun for me, but I think it's a little bit more 'static' in feel as I tend to do wordy little articles and then people are kind enough to comment on them. Great way to show photos, though! :)


Yes Sir. You are quite right!!! I will get right down to business...

Question #1. In the novels and sourcebooks, I have heard of places that are haunted and mention of ghosts. However I have never seen any stats for ghosts or other spirit like entities. Have I missed something? Have you ever had to battle any of these types of beings in any of your adventures?
Thanks in advance...

PS I can not wait to get my hands on a copy of To Serve the Petal Throne in book form!!! Your blog is fantastic too!!! Your love for Tekumel shows through...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 06, 2015, 08:31:47 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;846826
Yes Sir. You are quite right!!! I will get right down to business...

Question #1. In the novels and sourcebooks, I have heard of places that are haunted and mention of ghosts. However I have never seen any stats for ghosts or other spirit like entities. Have I missed something? Have you ever had to battle any of these types of beings in any of your adventures?
Thanks in advance...

PS I can not wait to get my hands on a copy of To Serve the Petal Throne in book form!!! Your blog is fantastic too!!! Your love for Tekumel shows through...


Right, then; let me have a go at this - I will try not to get all metaphysical on you...

There are no stats in any of Phil's rules for 'ghosts' and 'spirits' because 'ghosts' and 'spirits' don't have stats. (Eh? What?) This goes back to Phil's world-setting being a Sword and Planet setting - a lot of the assumptions that often get made in 'fantasy' settings don't apply. The best example of this are the Gods; they are not 'gods' in the sense we understand the term, but rather much more highly-advanced beings. (Clarke's Third Law, again.) 'Demons' are the same, other people going about their business in their own universes - we have 772 of them, remember - until some pesky player-character summons them to our pocket dimension. (I've shown up in Dave Arneson's "Blackmoor" campaign as a 'demon', for example.)

The beings that we see in a lot of fantasy RPG settings don't exist in Phil's Tekumel. There are a lot of beings that do a very good job of simulating the kinds of effects and such that we consider to be 'ghosts' in RPGs, but they are very real and can be fought or otherwise interacted with. See the lists in EPT for examples, often in the Underworld.

What I think you are calling 'ghosts' and 'spirits' are usually what we found in various ancient sites; we used the terms 'manifestations' and 'apparitions' formally, but as often used the term 'ghosts' informally. (Which is where I think the imprecision may be coming from; not your fault!) These appear, quite often, as 'scenes' from the distant past, much like the very rare 'picture boxes' of the Ancients; you will be in a room or space, when these apparitions will appear and seem to act out something from the past; you can't interact with the figures, as they are insubstantial and made up of some sort of energy. You can't 'battle' them, as they take no notice of you or your actions, and they simply get on with their 'show' and then fade away. They offer you no harm or interference; you can actually walk right through them, which is harmless but you do get a prickly sensation from going through the energy field that they exist in.

There are all sorts of very complicated and very unconvincing explanations as to what causes these apparitions that have been advanced by scholars over the centuries; as near as anyone can tell, these manifestations are the result of the 'life energy' or a portion of the spirit-soul being 'impressed' or 'recorded', and when the lines of other-planar energy intersect properly, the 'recorded' show 'plays back'. These manifestations occur even if there is no body there to watch them in the space where they occur; I've seen quite a  few, in my travels, and there are some where you can see the glow in the night sky from quite a distance.

Basically, they just happen. They provide a lot of 'local color' for the GM / referee / storyteller to provide clues, hints, plot devices, and just plain entertainment to the players. Engsvanyali locations seem to be richer in these kinds of things, or at least more of them seem to have survived.

Does this answer your question?

Thank you for your kind words about the book and the blog; I try to share what we had with Phil with you, as it was pretty special... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 06, 2015, 08:57:47 PM
Space (not the final frontier)
From what I can tell from countries on Earth, space is an indicator of wealth and importance.
Anything from being carried above the crowd in your own "space" to having vast mostly empty buildings in your clan compound.
The amount of empty space that belongs to you is a visual indicator of your importance and power.

If this assumption is true for Tekumel, how important is it and how much is enough to attract notice?

Is having a space forced for you through a crowd more than being carried above them or the same?

From what I saw of the map, this holds true in the underground also?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 06, 2015, 11:21:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;846725

Food! Glorious food!!!

Actually, good question! You can be all over the social spectrum on this. I get grain porridge three times a day when I am on campaign with the legion as part of my daily rations; we add to this whatever we can carry up in the baggage train or can forage from the locals.


Boot a la sand beetle again tonight, Chirine?  (I HATE desert campaigns.)

Also, viz honor and loyalty, it's amazing when your own unit are the only people in a thousand tsan not trying to kill you how you all come to trust each other...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 06, 2015, 11:44:51 PM
Rejoice for me. While on holiday, I found a good condition copy of Flamesong at Curious Books in East Lansing. Woo. Hoo!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 07, 2015, 07:55:50 AM
Sorry if I am monopolizing this thread but I can't resist having questions answered by one so close to the source.

Tattoos and body paint. Since clothing is mostly optional due to the climate, is it common to decorate your body in other ways?

Hats, turbans, parasols? What protects people from having their heads fried in the heat?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 07, 2015, 07:57:43 AM
Quote from: Bren;847076
Rejoice for me. While on holiday, I found a good condition copy of Flamesong at Curious Books in East Lansing. Woo. Hoo!

Great find! Enjoy!

I wish that the later books could be found like that.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 07, 2015, 08:07:55 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;847049
Space (not the final frontier)
From what I can tell from countries on Earth, space is an indicator of wealth and importance.
Anything from being carried above the crowd in your own "space" to having vast mostly empty buildings in your clan compound.
The amount of empty space that belongs to you is a visual indicator of your importance and power.

If this assumption is true for Tekumel, how important is it and how much is enough to attract notice?

Is having a space forced for you through a crowd more than being carried above them or the same?

From what I saw of the map, this holds true in the underground also?
=


I think this is pretty accurate, especially regarding architecture. Phil's city maps show very clearly that higher wealth and status usually gives more open space; ditto for his Underworld map of Jakalla. Poor and low status people tend to get crammed in pretty tightly. I'd suggest looking at Mughal India for city plans and building plans that work for Tekumel. My personal favorite is a palace in Kerala that I think you'll like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f1zNrdUpNc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f1zNrdUpNc)

My Missus contacted the Archeological Survey of India, and got us the plans of the place.

Higher status and wealthier people do get carried above the crowds on their palanquins, and really rude people have their retainers clear a path for them; most noble persons prefer not to be rude and simply have the retainer with the best voice call out "Make Way! Make way for the Noble Lord!", which usually works pretty nicely and gets very favorable attention for the noble person. A really clever person in a hurry will resort to throwing coins into the crowd to either side, which clears a path in a real hurry and male one very popular. Coppers are preferred for this, as they cost less and have a nice throwing reach for the minion doing the tossing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 07, 2015, 08:10:11 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;847069
Boot a la sand beetle again tonight, Chirine?  (I HATE desert campaigns.)

Also, viz honor and loyalty, it's amazing when your own unit are the only people in a thousand tsan not trying to kill you how you all come to trust each other...


Why, yes. Glorious General; will you have your boot with sand on the side or sand as a garnish?

Yeah, funny thing about that. It might help that the locals are cannibals, too.

[Added:] And Phil's idea of lovely tourist spots made Arneson and Blackmoor look really good. We couldn't be too upset with Phil, though, as he'd tell us hair-raising stories of all the places he'd been and survived... :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 07, 2015, 08:26:39 AM
Quote from: Bren;847076
Rejoice for me. While on holiday, I found a good condition copy of Flamesong at Curious Books in East Lansing. Woo. Hoo!


Rejoice, indeed!!! "Man of Gold" had about 15,000 copies printed; "Flamesong" only had about 5,000. You can read about our trip to Lake Parunal - that's us, in Harchar / Dave Arneson's ship; we went to Blackmoor right after Mihallu...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 07, 2015, 08:56:02 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;847156
Sorry if I am monopolizing this thread but I can't resist having questions answered by one so close to the source.

Tattoos and body paint. Since clothing is mostly optional due to the climate, is it common to decorate your body in other ways?

Hats, turbans, parasols? What protects people from having their heads fried in the heat?
=


Don't apologize. It's what I'm here for.

The Livyani are big on tatoos - the 'Aomuz'. These are magical glyphs, from the ancient Sunuz language. The rest of the Five Empires don't really go in much for tatoos; one exception are ranking Dlamelish clergy, who often have lines of text in praise of the Emerald Lady running along their arms and legs.

Body paint is very fashionable for parties and other social occasions - it's a mark of your status that you can pay somebody to do it.

Yes, to all three. Broad straw hats are very common amongst the lower classes, with parasols and umbrella being a high-status thing. Turbans are very common the further east you go; they are all the rage in the Nyemsel Islands amongst the upper classes. Parasols, ala Jakalla's fashions, are a recent introduction by my Senior Wife.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 07, 2015, 08:58:40 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;847157
Great find! Enjoy!

I wish that the later books could be found like that.
=


Sadly, highly unlikely. Print runs were in the 25 to 50 range, as they were POD, with total printings of something like 250 to 300 per book.

I am genuinely surprised that they have not been re-issued as PDFs, at least; they all exist in electronic format.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 07, 2015, 09:16:47 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;847159

[Added:] And Phil's idea of lovely tourist spots made Arneson and Blackmoor look really good. We couldn't be too upset with Phil, though, as he'd tell us hair-raising stories of all the places he'd been and survived... :eek:


Oh, yes, so very, very much so.

Some of his stories were quite shocking to a college kid from a small farming town in the Midwest.  Wow.  Never mind fantasy... this world is a strange and scary place.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 07, 2015, 09:41:41 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;847177
Oh, yes, so very, very much so.

Some of his stories were quite shocking to a college kid from a small farming town in the Midwest.  Wow.  Never mind fantasy... this world is a strange and scary place.


Agreed; our eyes bulged out and our mouths hung open on more then one occasion, didn't they? :)

Like his getting lost in the catacombs of the Red Fort in Delhi, or what happened after his passport was stolen in Hong Kong, or his adventures at the 1950 World Con? :)

"Oh, my!" as Youngest Daughter Kerry would say...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on August 07, 2015, 04:37:11 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;846725

Food! Glorious food!!!

Actually, good question! You can be all over the social spectrum on this. I get grain porridge three times a day when I am on campaign with the legion as part of my daily rations; we add to this whatever we can carry up in the baggage train or can forage from the locals. (A good stew is considered A Very Big Deal, on campaign!) Back in garrison, or in the clanhouse, the food is usually much more varied - and hot, too!

This varies a lot - urban poor are lucky to get the tea (there are various varieties, with a Yan Koryani version very highly regarded and highly priced - I think it tastes like turpentine, myself), while a low status farmer will have a pretty good diet as he or she is right at the source. So, I guess the best way to answer you is to say that the good stuff starts pretty low on the ladder, especially out in the country, but pretty high in the Foreigners' Quarters of cities. Same thing out in the 'sticks'; most people eat pretty well, at about the same level as you'd find in Ancient Rome or South Asia, but the supply chain is pretty shaky.

I hope this helps; I can get really detailed, and drive you quite mad - Tekumelyani cooking is a really strong interest of mine, and we do experiment every now and then. Try 'Naan', if you can get it... :)

Can you share a Tekumelyani recipe that we can find the ingredients of? I'd like to try something like that:).

Quote from: Greentongue;847156
Sorry if I am monopolizing this thread but I can't resist having questions answered by one so close to the source.

No need to apologize, I think. You're asking questions that might be helpful to other people, and some of them are stuff I haven't thought to ask.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;847158

Higher status and wealthier people do get carried above the crowds on their palanquins, and really rude people have their retainers clear a path for them; most noble persons prefer not to be rude and simply have the retainer with the best voice call out "Make Way! Make way for the Noble Lord!", which usually works pretty nicely and gets very favorable attention for the noble person. A really clever person in a hurry will resort to throwing coins into the crowd to either side, which clears a path in a real hurry and male one very popular. Coppers are preferred for this, as they cost less and have a nice throwing reach for the minion doing the tossing.

Ah, the "negative ninja" trick:D!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;847159
Why, yes. Glorious General; will you have your boot with sand on the side or sand as a garnish?

Yeah, funny thing about that. It might help that the locals are cannibals, too.

[Added:] And Phil's idea of lovely tourist spots made Arneson and Blackmoor look really good. We couldn't be too upset with Phil, though, as he'd tell us hair-raising stories of all the places he'd been and survived... :eek:

Can you describe one of Phil's ideas of lovely tourist spots?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;847173
Sadly, highly unlikely. Print runs were in the 25 to 50 range, as they were POD, with total printings of something like 250 to 300 per book.

I am genuinely surprised that they have not been re-issued as PDFs, at least; they all exist in electronic format.

Why aren't they released, then?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;847177
Oh, yes, so very, very much so.

Some of his stories were quite shocking to a college kid from a small farming town in the Midwest.  Wow.  Never mind fantasy... this world is a strange and scary place.

Indeed it is, Gronan. Care to share a story that impressed you:)?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;847187
Agreed; our eyes bulged out and our mouths hung open on more then one occasion, didn't they? :)

Like his getting lost in the catacombs of the Red Fort in Delhi, or what happened after his passport was stolen in Hong Kong, or his adventures at the 1950 World Con? :)

"Oh, my!" as Youngest Daughter Kerry would say...

What happened when Phil's passport was stolen in Hong Kong;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 07, 2015, 07:58:12 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;847170
Body paint is very fashionable for parties and other social occasions - it's a mark of your status that you can pay somebody to do it.


I'm using finger and toe nail paint as status indicators for that very reason.
It shows you can afford to have someone do them for you and often.
Same with hair cuts and styling.
I guess I was not far off the mark.

With limited space in cities and high population density, are there what we might call "Self Storage" locations for the things that clans have accumulated over the centuries?
Are they always adjacent or within the clan compound or are some in the Underworld?  Can the locations be shared between clans?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 08, 2015, 05:14:23 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;847280
Can you share a Tekumelyani recipe that we can find the ingredients of? I'd like to try something like that:).

Can you describe one of Phil's ideas of lovely tourist spots?

Why aren't they released, then?

What happened when Phil's passport was stolen in Hong Kong;)?


Well, here we go:

May I suggest the wonderful blog by a good friend? Kim also has done the wonderful "Butrus Gazetteer", one of the very best things that's ever been done for Tekumel, too. Here are the links:

https://ssaingkan.wordpress.com/ (https://ssaingkan.wordpress.com/)

http://http://home.earthlink.net/~panchakahq/main.html (http://http://home.earthlink.net/~panchakahq/main.html)

She's a linguist by trade, and a cook by inclination. Interestingly, she took some of her language classes from some of Phil's early (1950's) Tekumel players...

I am not a fussy eater, much to the amusement of my legion's cooks. If I may quote the Chief Cook (head of the Department of Catering and Provisions - we got a department for everything, in true Tsolyani style):

"His Lordship likes food, but is not overly fussy about what he eats; he's very happy with the same rations as the rest of the Legion, and it makes him a little hard to cook for - he does not like 'fancy' dishes, just decent fare. He does love his little honey cakes, but then, we all do. We've had great success with taking a freshly-baked portion of the flat-bread I think you call 'naan', and covering it with chopped - 'diced', I think you call it - meat; cover with a lightly - very lightly, His Lordship is not fond of highly-spiced foods, except on special occasions - spiced sauce made of mashed peas or perhaps some rice, and serve warm. The rice, by the way, is always good to serve him; he likes the several varieties, such as what I think you'd call 'sticky rice', with a bit of spiced sauce over the top. As a variation, we also take a good hard cheese, shred it, and sprinkle that over the meat and warm until the cheese melts. This is a fine winter dish, especially when the wind is coming off the bay and it's a little chilly."

"If you'd like to try more of our food, may I suggest one of the places in your world that serves what the learned Firu ba Yeker, the noted scholar and traveller, calls 'South Asian' cuisine. This is very close to what we Tsolyani like to cook and eat, and is a good 'simulation' of our foodstuffs."

The City of Bayarsha - a 'lost' city out to the west of Mu'uglavya, and north of Livyanu. You get there by tubeway car. The locals are a colony of natural telepaths, left over from the days of the Ancients - the Lords of Humanspace used them as communications units - and will welcome any visitors - especially women. They will kill any males in the group, and keep the women as enforced breeding stock to keep up their population numbers; in this branch of the telepaths, the ability gene is a male-transmitted one. (In the Nyemesel Islands, it's a female-transmitted one.) The recognition marker is no body hair on the telepath.

The locals are not fun people. Once you get there, and out of the tubeway car, they will hunt you down through their telepathic abilities and kill you in various interesting and painful ways for the fun of it - they are kind of like dear old Nyelmu, in that respect. The city itself is interesting, as it's got some nice bits of ancient technology stashed away, but you really have to fight for your life when trying to get it. Best not to even get out of the tubeway car, if you asked me.

No idea why the Tekumel Foundation hasn't moved on getting the later novels back out. It's taken them the better part of five years to get "Man of Gold" reissued, and I don't know what the delays might be; I stopped working for them in November of 2013, after they tried to make me the 'general manager' of the operation. (All I ever wanted to be was an archivist, not a 'business person'... Sigh.)

He would tell the story as an example of how to work in a culture. He had his passport lifted in the hotel, and when he reported it missing to the US Consulate they told him it would take a week to get him a new one. As his money had also been stolen, they gave him USD$100 to live on for the week, which even back then didn't stretch very far - certainly not to room and board for a week. So, he told us, he stepped outside and asked a taxi driver to take him to a respectable brothel. He assumed that the brothel would tip the driver for bringing in business.

He was duly delivered, and 'checked in' for a week's stay. He said that the food was excellent, the room had a great view and was very comfortable, and the only difficulty was that he had to have one of the girls in the room at all times so that the place would not get in trouble with the police - if he was just staying there, they would have been able to fine the brothel for running an unlicensed hotel; with the girl in the room, it was all perfectly legal and very respectable. It cost him about USD$50 for the week; he loved the food, got a lot of sleep, the girls got a week off (in rotation; he paid for their time), and he learned Mandarin and Cantonese. Everyone was happy, as everybody got what they wanted.

He had a million of these stories; he'd been pretty much everywhere and done everything, in that part of the world, and it showed when we gamed in his Tekumel... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 08, 2015, 05:19:08 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;847307
I'm using finger and toe nail paint as status indicators for that very reason.
It shows you can afford to have someone do them for you and often.
Same with hair cuts and styling.
I guess I was not far off the mark.

With limited space in cities and high population density, are there what we might call "Self Storage" locations for the things that clans have accumulated over the centuries?
Are they always adjacent or within the clan compound or are some in the Underworld?  Can the locations be shared between clans?
=


No, you are not at all far off the mark. You have it really down, I think.

Yes; there are clans who specialize in 'discreet storage facilities', and which are very well-established and quite trustworthy. While clans do have their own storage spaces, both in their clan-houses and in their Underworld areas, they also do have stuff that might be just too valuable to risk to casual looters. This was another 'plot hook' for Phil; being hired as guards, or being hired to 'retrieve' items for clans. And yes, the allied clans do share this kind of thing, too. It's what scribes and guards are for, to keep track of everything.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 08, 2015, 10:55:10 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;847382
It's what scribes and guards are for, to keep track of everything.
Just how pervasive is this bureaucratic paperwork?
How much can be glossed over to avoid gaming boredom and how much should be front and center as an aspect of the setting?

Is it wise to hire a scribe with your first Katiar to handle all the boring but required paperwork?
Is this an important talent for one of your wifes?

There is a lot of talk about citizens not using cash but having "clan credit cards".
How does this work exactly and are there those that provide this service for non-citizens?

I'm sure there are "Payday Loans" even for citizens but how do these work and why would they be used?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 08, 2015, 02:29:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;847380

He would tell the story as an example of how to work in a culture. He had his passport lifted in the hotel, and when he reported it missing to the US Consulate they told him it would take a week to get him a new one. As his money had also been stolen, they gave him USD$100 to live on for the week, which even back then didn't stretch very far - certainly not to room and board for a week. So, he told us, he stepped outside and asked a taxi driver to take him to a respectable brothel. He assumed that the brothel would tip the driver for bringing in business.

He was duly delivered, and 'checked in' for a week's stay. He said that the food was excellent, the room had a great view and was very comfortable, and the only difficulty was that he had to have one of the girls in the room at all times so that the place would not get in trouble with the police - if he was just staying there, they would have been able to fine the brothel for running an unlicensed hotel; with the girl in the room, it was all perfectly legal and very respectable. It cost him about USD$50 for the week; he loved the food, got a lot of sleep, the girls got a week off (in rotation; he paid for their time), and he learned Mandarin and Cantonese. Everyone was happy, as everybody got what they wanted.

He had a million of these stories; he'd been pretty much everywhere and done everything, in that part of the world, and it showed when we gamed in his Tekumel... :)


Oh, Crom, I'd forgotten about that.  But now, yeah, and I remember him saying it took some explaining that he didn't want sex, but once he got it across to the madam it went fine.  The girls were delighted to get an extra night's sleep each, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on August 08, 2015, 05:57:55 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;847380
Well, here we go:

May I suggest the wonderful blog by a good friend? Kim also has done the wonderful "Butrus Gazetteer", one of the very best things that's ever been done for Tekumel, too. Here are the links:

https://ssaingkan.wordpress.com/ (https://ssaingkan.wordpress.com/)

http://http://home.earthlink.net/~panchakahq/main.html (http://http://home.earthlink.net/~panchakahq/main.html)

She's a linguist by trade, and a cook by inclination. Interestingly, she took some of her language classes from some of Phil's early (1950's) Tekumel players...

I am not a fussy eater, much to the amusement of my legion's cooks. If I may quote the Chief Cook (head of the Department of Catering and Provisions - we got a department for everything, in true Tsolyani style):

"His Lordship likes food, but is not overly fussy about what he eats; he's very happy with the same rations as the rest of the Legion, and it makes him a little hard to cook for - he does not like 'fancy' dishes, just decent fare. He does love his little honey cakes, but then, we all do. We've had great success with taking a freshly-baked portion of the flat-bread I think you call 'naan', and covering it with chopped - 'diced', I think you call it - meat; cover with a lightly - very lightly, His Lordship is not fond of highly-spiced foods, except on special occasions - spiced sauce made of mashed peas or perhaps some rice, and serve warm. The rice, by the way, is always good to serve him; he likes the several varieties, such as what I think you'd call 'sticky rice', with a bit of spiced sauce over the top. As a variation, we also take a good hard cheese, shred it, and sprinkle that over the meat and warm until the cheese melts. This is a fine winter dish, especially when the wind is coming off the bay and it's a little chilly."

"If you'd like to try more of our food, may I suggest one of the places in your world that serves what the learned Firu ba Yeker, the noted scholar and traveller, calls 'South Asian' cuisine. This is very close to what we Tsolyani like to cook and eat, and is a good 'simulation' of our foodstuffs."

Great overview! Too bad the second link appears to be leading to a site that no longer exists.

Quote

The City of Bayarsha - a 'lost' city out to the west of Mu'uglavya, and north of Livyanu. You get there by tubeway car. The locals are a colony of natural telepaths, left over from the days of the Ancients - the Lords of Humanspace used them as communications units - and will welcome any visitors - especially women. They will kill any males in the group, and keep the women as enforced breeding stock to keep up their population numbers; in this branch of the telepaths, the ability gene is a male-transmitted one. (In the Nyemesel Islands, it's a female-transmitted one.) The recognition marker is no body hair on the telepath.

The locals are not fun people. Once you get there, and out of the tubeway car, they will hunt you down through their telepathic abilities and kill you in various interesting and painful ways for the fun of it - they are kind of like dear old Nyelmu, in that respect. The city itself is interesting, as it's got some nice bits of ancient technology stashed away, but you really have to fight for your life when trying to get it. Best not to even get out of the tubeway car, if you asked me.

My PCs have gone to such places.
Any rumours that they visited them loaded with WMDs or setting equivalents are totally baseless, of course:)!

Quote
No idea why the Tekumel Foundation hasn't moved on getting the later novels back out. It's taken them the better part of five years to get "Man of Gold" reissued, and I don't know what the delays might be; I stopped working for them in November of 2013, after they tried to make me the 'general manager' of the operation. (All I ever wanted to be was an archivist, not a 'business person'... Sigh.)

Ah well...

Quote
He would tell the story as an example of how to work in a culture. He had his passport lifted in the hotel, and when he reported it missing to the US Consulate they told him it would take a week to get him a new one. As his money had also been stolen, they gave him USD$100 to live on for the week, which even back then didn't stretch very far - certainly not to room and board for a week. So, he told us, he stepped outside and asked a taxi driver to take him to a respectable brothel. He assumed that the brothel would tip the driver for bringing in business.

He was duly delivered, and 'checked in' for a week's stay. He said that the food was excellent, the room had a great view and was very comfortable, and the only difficulty was that he had to have one of the girls in the room at all times so that the place would not get in trouble with the police - if he was just staying there, they would have been able to fine the brothel for running an unlicensed hotel; with the girl in the room, it was all perfectly legal and very respectable. It cost him about USD$50 for the week; he loved the food, got a lot of sleep, the girls got a week off (in rotation; he paid for their time), and he learned Mandarin and Cantonese. Everyone was happy, as everybody got what they wanted.

Was that the standard fare? I mean, would it have been more expensive if he had asked for sex and accommodation?
I'm honestly not sure what were the prices in HK at the time, but I've always assumed that room, board and company would be more expensive than just room and board.

Quote
He had a million of these stories; he'd been pretty much everywhere and done everything, in that part of the world, and it showed when we gamed in his Tekumel... :)

I guess so.
You totally have to include them in your book, too;)!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;847503
Oh, Crom, I'd forgotten about that.  But now, yeah, and I remember him saying it took some explaining that he didn't want sex, but once he got it across to the madam it went fine.  The girls were delighted to get an extra night's sleep each, too.

Yeah, I guess he was a non-standard client.
But then, imagine being able to claim you went to a Hong Kong brothel and were considered a client with non-standard wishes:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 08, 2015, 07:34:59 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;847420
Just how pervasive is this bureaucratic paperwork?
How much can be glossed over to avoid gaming boredom and how much should be front and center as an aspect of the setting?

Is it wise to hire a scribe with your first Katiar to handle all the boring but required paperwork?
Is this an important talent for one of your wifes?

There is a lot of talk about citizens not using cash but having "clan credit cards".
How does this work exactly and are there those that provide this service for non-citizens?

I'm sure there are "Payday Loans" even for citizens but how do these work and why would they be used?
=


The paperwork is there, but it's more like 'background radiation' more then anything else. Players don't need to really worry about it - all we usually did was ask the clan's major-domo "Is the the paperwork in order?" once in a while. It can - and probably should! - be glossed over in favor of other action, for the very reason you give.

No; I think you'd be better off spending your first Kaitar on a nice, presentable kilt and a pair of sensible sandals, and a little 'inducement' to Cousin Woofel to get you an introduction to a respectable clan. They will handle all of your paperwork for you, once you are 'in', and you won't have to worry about it.

Yes, it can be. My Senior Wife runs the household, and the scribes and the clerks do the heavy lifting. She looks over the accounts, and makes sure that all is in order.

I'm not trying to put you on the spot or anything, but what's the context of the discussion of the 'clan credit cards'? I'm asking because I've never heard the term before. What I think is being referred to is the interlocking clan accounts; an example might run as follows:

Eldest Daughter wants a new party dress to go to a party at the Sea Blue clan house. She asks her parents nicely, and they set up an appointment at the high-class dressmakers for her. She gets fitted, and goes off to her party. The dressmakers' clan presents the bill to the parents' clan; it may be that their clan has something that the dressmakers want so, so the goods are exchanged and the accounts debited and credited as needed. It may also be that the dressmakers want something else, so they get something from a third clan, who then bills the first clan and they exchange goods or services. It's all what could be called 'money of account', as no specie changes hands unless coins are actually needed for the transaction. At the end of the week or month, the various clans send their clerks around to reconcile the accounts, and balances struck on the credits and debits for everyone.

Actual money does change hands, of course; as a little present, Eldest Daughter might be given some cash to spend on her dress as a way for her to have some fun. The clan will, of course, continue to back the transaction as needed. The clan provides room, board, and most - if not everything - needed for ordinary life; the adventures come when the 'extras' / 'luxury goods' are wanted. And, of course, you get adventures from the escorting of the bearers taking the specie to the other clan, too... :)

Yes, non-citizens are taken care of; again, the ever-helpful Cousin Woofel will provide an introduction to somebody who can provide help, in return for goods and services.

There are money-lenders, but they are very low-status and not used by respectable people. They tend to charge ridiculous rates of interest, and are not very nice about extending credit - or goodwill, either. They are the last resort of the desperate, frankly.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 08, 2015, 07:36:11 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;847503
Oh, Crom, I'd forgotten about that.  But now, yeah, and I remember him saying it took some explaining that he didn't want sex, but once he got it across to the madam it went fine.  The girls were delighted to get an extra night's sleep each, too.


Yep; it all worked out well for everyone, and made for quite the story! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 08, 2015, 07:40:05 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;847549
Great overview! Too bad the second link appears to be leading to a site that no longer exists.

Was that the standard fare? I mean, would it have been more expensive if he had asked for sex and accommodation?
I'm honestly not sure what were the prices in HK at the time, but I've always assumed that room, board and company would be more expensive than just room and board.


I guess so.
You totally have to include them in your book, too;)!


Yeah, I guess he was a non-standard client.
But then, imagine being able to claim you went to a Hong Kong brothel and were considered a client with non-standard wishes:D!


I will check the second link; I can get to it, but I have to dodge the link to the web ring to do it.

No, it was flat-rate, he said.

I am, where they fit in to the story.

Yep, and Phil had all sorts of stories like this. When we 'got too close to the edge of the film' he'd divert our attention with a story like this until he could come up with something at the next game session... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 08, 2015, 07:45:50 PM
I'm honestly not sure what were the prices in HK at the time, but I've always assumed that room, board and company would be more expensive than just room and board.[/quote]I assumed a room at a hotel might have been cheaper, but I figured that without a passport, credit card, money, etc. he couldn't get a hotel room, whereas the brothel was less picky about wanting to see a passport or a credit card.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 08, 2015, 08:05:42 PM
Quote from: Bren;847585
I'm honestly not sure what were the prices in HK at the time, but I've always assumed that room, board and company would be more expensive than just room and board.
I assumed a room at a hotel might have been cheaper, but I figured that without a passport, credit card, money, etc. he couldn't get a hotel room, whereas the brothel was less picky about wanting to see a passport or a credit card.[/QUOTE]

This would have been in the early 1950s, so I don't think that a grad student - he was a Fulbright Scholar at the time - would have had a credit card. (Had they been invented yet?) I think you have it, here, given that the Cold War was just heating up, and passport controls were pretty strict...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 08, 2015, 09:36:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;847590
This would have been in the early 1950s, so I don't think that a grad student - he was a Fulbright Scholar at the time - would have had a credit card. (Had they been invented yet?) I think you have it, here, given that the Cold War was just heating up, and passport controls were pretty strict...
Aside from Diners Cards, the early 1950s is pretty much pre-credit card. A hotel back then might have wanted a deposit. I seem to recall having to put down a cash deposit for a hotel in the Precambrian Era before I had a credit card. And in much of the world you still have to show a passport when you register for a hotel. That was a thing, and still is for non-EU folks in Europe and it is a thing (and probably was a thing) in most or all of the Asian countries I've traveled to. One of the hotels in China even checked to make certain my Visa was valid.

The brothel is a cool way for a character in an RPG to lay low though. I'll have to remember to use that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 08, 2015, 10:16:00 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;847580
I'm not trying to put you on the spot or anything, but what's the context of the discussion of the 'clan credit cards'? I'm asking because I've never heard the term before. What I think is being referred to is the interlocking clan accounts; an example might run as follows:

The context is gamers and their desire for LOOT!
Your explanation was good but gave a rather involved process that could confuse.
I do like the balance transfers and the adventures they can spawn.

I am considering substituting a "clan chop" that allows them to purchase things that the clan would then pay for.
Clan payment being much like you are talking about with them doing jobs for the clan to pay back their debt.

Instead of a "chop", a document that was script and had a set face value was another idea.
Trying to learn which was the accepted practice or could fit the need.

The biggest problem is the rules for experience being based on gold value so working in cash or a cash equivalent is encouraged.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 09, 2015, 01:41:55 AM
Hello Sir,

Thank you for the reply to my question.

Could you please tell me a bit more about Khirgar? The Blue Fish God story was great.

Since some of the clanhouses are close together and tall, how tall? I have read some good descriptions of some of the houses in Jakalla. What would the houses in Khirgar be like?

What would a young noble/high clan member do for fun(hanging out in the clanhouse can get boring...)?

I was thinking of taking a trip...There is not too much out there about Khirgar that I have come across. Thank you in advance. :0)

H
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 09, 2015, 08:08:23 AM
Quote from: Bren;847605
Aside from Diners Cards, the early 1950s is pretty much pre-credit card. A hotel back then might have wanted a deposit. I seem to recall having to put down a cash deposit for a hotel in the Precambrian Era before I had a credit card. And in much of the world you still have to show a passport when you register for a hotel. That was a thing, and still is for non-EU folks in Europe and it is a thing (and probably was a thing) in most or all of the Asian countries I've traveled to. One of the hotels in China even checked to make certain my Visa was valid.

The brothel is a cool way for a character in an RPG to lay low though. I'll have to remember to use that.


Agreed. And I think your point about this being a great plot item is good. I think that may have been the whole point of Phil's telling the story to us. He was always looking for ways to get us to think 'outside the box' culturally, trying to get us to look beyond the Upper Midwest where we'd grown up; we were fearfully young, back then... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 09, 2015, 08:36:00 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;847612
The context is gamers and their desire for LOOT!
Your explanation was good but gave a rather involved process that could confuse.
I do like the balance transfers and the adventures they can spawn.

I am considering substituting a "clan chop" that allows them to purchase things that the clan would then pay for.
Clan payment being much like you are talking about with them doing jobs for the clan to pay back their debt.

Instead of a "chop", a document that was script and had a set face value was another idea.
Trying to learn which was the accepted practice or could fit the need.

The biggest problem is the rules for experience being based on gold value so working in cash or a cash equivalent is encouraged.
=


Ah, all right! I see what's happening. Well, here's something that Phil did in his campaign that you might be able to use...

As I talked about, the clans do a lot of reconciling accounts and bookkeeping. That's pretty dull stuff for most players, let's face it, and so to make things a little easier Phil introduced us to what he called 'writs'. These are documents drawn up by the various scribes, and they serve as what was called (by the Medici, among others of that time) 'notes of hand'. They serve as a way to keep from having to ship specie around, and can be very useful. Two examples:

Eldest Daughter still wants a new dress to wear to the party. Her doting parents - me, let's say - write her a writ that basically says, "This writ is good for x Kaitars", with her name on it, and they give this to her as a present. She takes the writ to the dressmakers' where they get her fitted up with a dress she likes. They accept the writ from her, and off she goes to her party. If the dress was worth less then the value of the writ, they can either five her a credit on her next purchase, or give her the 'change' in cash. If the dress costs more then the writ's 'face value', then they will bill either me or the clan, depending on who the writ is drawn on. At some point, they will 'cash in' the writ with my clan, which will either pay them in cash or credit on their account, and debit the sum from either the clan's general account or my personal account. I should note that the clan normally will pay for 'clan things', and I have to pay for 'personal things'. The clan will stand behind me, though, if that might be needed. (In m case, it isn't. I am, cough, 'a man of means'.)

Or, in an actual example of game play, one of the players out at Phil's had a tendency to carry all of his wealth in cash - not gems, coins. At one point, he was lugging around 3,000,000 Tsolyani Kaitars; which at three grams a coin, was nine tons of coins. (In 500 Kaitar bags, in big locked chests.) So, Phil sends us off to Blackmoor, where I happen to notice that the locals are up to their elven hips in iron and steel. Being an Imperial official, with pretty wide powers, I issued the player a writ for three million, to be drawn on the Imperium itself, and used the money to buy up all the iron and steel within a hundred mile radius of Blackmoor Castle. We got back to Tekumel, and I handed the stuff to Prince Mirusiya. (There was enough to make armor for four legions. I became very popular, on the spot.)

Mirusiya issued me a writ on the Imperium for the three million, and my 'credit rating' became solid platinum. And I was also now an Imperial Govenor, so I even had a decent salary to live off of. The other player 'cashed in' his writ, and went back to carrying around his treasure in a very stout wagon. Eventually, during the Sirsum mini-campaign, he made a run for it as we looked to get dead; he was the Imperial Chancellor for the Province of Hekellu, so he deposited his money in the Imperial Provincial Treasury, issued himself a writ for the sum, and took off for safer climates. We were stuck with this almighty heavy wagon, which we wanted to send back to Hekellu - guess who got stuck with that nasty job, escorting a wagon full of gold back along a bad road through a countryside full of very hostile tribesmen.

Lord Takodai hi Vriddi, who was in charge of this travelling circus, gave me what troops he could, and asked me if I still had the uncashed writ for the three million; I did, he asked me for it, marked it "PAID IN FULL", and the damn wagon and golden cargo was now my personal problem. We did managed to get back to Hekellu; I did managed to find a place to store the wagon for a while, and so am now a pretty well-off person.

So, I think Phil's writs may be your solution. I still write them up for games; I can show photos of them, if you like. They can be drawn on individuals, clans, temples, or the Imperium itself. They are not paper money, but more like 'letters of credit' then anything else.

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 09, 2015, 08:57:36 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;847638
Hello Sir,

Thank you for the reply to my question.

Could you please tell me a bit more about Khirgar? The Blue Fish God story was great.

Since some of the clanhouses are close together and tall, how tall? I have read some good descriptions of some of the houses in Jakalla. What would the houses in Khirgar be like?

What would a young noble/high clan member do for fun(hanging out in the clanhouse can get boring...)?

I was thinking of taking a trip...There is not too much out there about Khirgar that I have come across. Thank you in advance. :0)

H


(er, you don't need to call me 'sir'; I'm 'Chirine', and have been for over thirty-five years - it's all Phil ever called me... :) )

Khirgar is up on the NW Frontier, and is the big legion base for the Northwest on the eastern side of the Atkolel Heights. The city is up on a hill, and pretty heavily fortified. The buildings are pretty densely packed, due to the site, and there aren't many open areas like markets and squares. We spent a lot of time there in the beginning of Phil's campaign, about three years of gaming. It's very much an 'army town', and the Temple of Karakan is particularly strong there.

The clan houses there tend to 'go up', unlike Jakalla where they tend to spead out more. Have a look at a city in India, Jaisalmer, for examples of what this looks like.

There are all sorts of things / trouble a young man can get into! There's the social whirl of parties and feasts, there's temple activities, government work, and always a career in the military. Cities tend to have all sorts of 'local militia' units that are very socially fashionable and militarily useless; they do look good at parties, though, and tend to attract romantic attention - it's the uniform, don;t you know... :)

And there's always the clan - the clan elders will think of things for you to do, to keep you out of trouble. Like going on adventures... :)

Agreed; there isn't much in one place on Khirgar, or any other city. When I was working for the Tekumel Foundation, I proposed a series of 'city books', where we'd gather all of the information we had in the archives on a city and the local province, do a map - I have lots of maps in my collection! - and put it out there for people like you. I started the project, and have all my folders for it in my archives. The Foundation declined to take up the project, however.

If you have more detailed questions, feel free to ask away! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 09, 2015, 12:09:51 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;847658
(er, you don't need to call me 'sir'; I'm 'Chirine', and have been for over thirty-five years - it's all Phil ever called me... :) )

Khirgar is up on the NW Frontier, and is the big legion base for the Northwest on the eastern side of the Atkolel Heights. The city is up on a hill, and pretty heavily fortified. The buildings are pretty densely packed, due to the site, and there aren't many open areas like markets and squares. We spent a lot of time there in the beginning of Phil's campaign, about three years of gaming. It's very much an 'army town', and the Temple of Karakan is particularly strong there.

The clan houses there tend to 'go up', unlike Jakalla where they tend to spead out more. Have a look at a city in India, Jaisalmer, for examples of what this looks like.

There are all sorts of things / trouble a young man can get into! There's the social whirl of parties and feasts, there's temple activities, government work, and always a career in the military. Cities tend to have all sorts of 'local militia' units that are very socially fashionable and militarily useless; they do look good at parties, though, and tend to attract romantic attention - it's the uniform, don;t you know... :)

And there's always the clan - the clan elders will think of things for you to do, to keep you out of trouble. Like going on adventures... :)

Agreed; there isn't much in one place on Khirgar, or any other city. When I was working for the Tekumel Foundation, I proposed a series of 'city books', where we'd gather all of the information we had in the archives on a city and the local province, do a map - I have lots of maps in my collection! - and put it out there for people like you. I started the project, and have all my folders for it in my archives. The Foundation declined to take up the project, however.

If you have more detailed questions, feel free to ask away! :)


Chirine great stuff!!! Thank you. I read that in Khirgar they have been avoiding Ditlana. Anything of note underground? Also who handles security(patrols and manning the towers)? The local militia, the Legions stationed there, the governor's men?

Also within the five empires, how common are bandit gangs, slavers, and pirates(I tend to see Harchar as an atypical example)? Who usually make up these groups? The poor, escaped slaves, dissatisfied nobles?

How are thieves and the above unsavory elements handled by the authorities? The high road? Slavery? Workhouses?

Thanks again,
H
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on August 09, 2015, 01:10:14 PM
Quote from: Bren;847605
And in much of the world you still have to show a passport when you register for a hotel. That was a thing, and still is for non-EU folks in Europe and it is a thing (and probably was a thing) in most or all of the Asian countries I've traveled to. One of the hotels in China even checked to make certain my Visa was valid.

The brothel is a cool way for a character in an RPG to lay low though. I'll have to remember to use that.

It's still often a thing around here, for EU and non-EU folks alike (but it's identity card and not passport you need to show).

Aren't brothels among the standard places for PCs to hide?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;847653
Ah, all right! I see what's happening. Well, here's something that Phil did in his campaign that you might be able to use...

As I talked about, the clans do a lot of reconciling accounts and bookkeeping. That's pretty dull stuff for most players, let's face it, and so to make things a little easier Phil introduced us to what he called 'writs'. These are documents drawn up by the various scribes, and they serve as what was called (by the Medici, among others of that time) 'notes of hand'. They serve as a way to keep from having to ship specie around, and can be very useful. Two examples:

Eldest Daughter still wants a new dress to wear to the party. Her doting parents - me, let's say - write her a writ that basically says, "This writ is good for x Kaitars", with her name on it, and they give this to her as a present. She takes the writ to the dressmakers' where they get her fitted up with a dress she likes. They accept the writ from her, and off she goes to her party. If the dress was worth less then the value of the writ, they can either five her a credit on her next purchase, or give her the 'change' in cash. If the dress costs more then the writ's 'face value', then they will bill either me or the clan, depending on who the writ is drawn on. At some point, they will 'cash in' the writ with my clan, which will either pay them in cash or credit on their account, and debit the sum from either the clan's general account or my personal account. I should note that the clan normally will pay for 'clan things', and I have to pay for 'personal things'. The clan will stand behind me, though, if that might be needed. (In m case, it isn't. I am, cough, 'a man of means'.)

Or, in an actual example of game play, one of the players out at Phil's had a tendency to carry all of his wealth in cash - not gems, coins. At one point, he was lugging around 3,000,000 Tsolyani Kaitars; which at three grams a coin, was nine tons of coins. (In 500 Kaitar bags, in big locked chests.) So, Phil sends us off to Blackmoor, where I happen to notice that the locals are up to their elven hips in iron and steel. Being an Imperial official, with pretty wide powers, I issued the player a writ for three million, to be drawn on the Imperium itself, and used the money to buy up all the iron and steel within a hundred mile radius of Blackmoor Castle. We got back to Tekumel, and I handed the stuff to Prince Mirusiya. (There was enough to make armor for four legions. I became very popular, on the spot.)

Mirusiya issued me a writ on the Imperium for the three million, and my 'credit rating' became solid platinum. And I was also now an Imperial Govenor, so I even had a decent salary to live off of. The other player 'cashed in' his writ, and went back to carrying around his treasure in a very stout wagon. Eventually, during the Sirsum mini-campaign, he made a run for it as we looked to get dead; he was the Imperial Chancellor for the Province of Hekellu, so he deposited his money in the Imperial Provincial Treasury, issued himself a writ for the sum, and took off for safer climates. We were stuck with this almighty heavy wagon, which we wanted to send back to Hekellu - guess who got stuck with that nasty job, escorting a wagon full of gold back along a bad road through a countryside full of very hostile tribesmen.

Lord Takodai hi Vriddi, who was in charge of this travelling circus, gave me what troops he could, and asked me if I still had the uncashed writ for the three million; I did, he asked me for it, marked it "PAID IN FULL", and the damn wagon and golden cargo was now my personal problem. We did managed to get back to Hekellu; I did managed to find a place to store the wagon for a while, and so am now a pretty well-off person.

So, I think Phil's writs may be your solution. I still write them up for games; I can show photos of them, if you like. They can be drawn on individuals, clans, temples, or the Imperium itself. They are not paper money, but more like 'letters of credit' then anything else.

Does this help?

Thanks, Chirine, that gave me an idea I might try to incorporate:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 09, 2015, 04:26:59 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;847653
...so to make things a little easier Phil introduced us to what he called 'writs'. These are documents drawn up by the various scribes, and they serve as what was called (by the Medici, among others of that time) 'notes of hand'. They serve as a way to keep from having to ship specie around, and can be very useful.
...
So, I think Phil's writs may be your solution. I still write them up for games; I can show photos of them, if you like. They can be drawn on individuals, clans, temples, or the Imperium itself. They are not paper money, but more like 'letters of credit' then anything else.

Does this help?


Wonderful.
I can use a "Chop" to be the official stamp that makes it authentic. Can even have different ones for levels of authorization.

I assume these 'writs' are "Payable to the Bearer" and not written for a specific person?
If diverted to a person that they were not originally intended for they are still honored, correct?

"having to ship specie around" is not a bad thing as far as adventurers are concerned. Many bad things can happen to such shipments intentionally or otherwise.
Same with a "Chop" which would be guarded carefully.

Say you marry into a new clan, how loyal are you still to your birth clan?

Are there issues with very old clan members holding onto power?
What about dead ones that are still hanging around thanks to Sarku?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 09, 2015, 04:33:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;847653
So, Phil sends us off to Blackmoor, where I happen to notice that the locals are up to their elven hips in iron and steel. Being an Imperial official, with pretty wide powers, I issued the player a writ for three million, to be drawn on the Imperium itself, and used the money to buy up all the iron and steel within a hundred mile radius of Blackmoor Castle. We got back to Tekumel, and I handed the stuff to Prince Mirusiya. (There was enough to make armor for four legions. I became very popular, on the spot.)


...they would sell you TEN IRON SPIKES for ONE Khiatar?

* cries *
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 09, 2015, 04:40:21 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;847658
(er, you don't need to call me 'sir'; I'm 'Chirine', and have been for over thirty-five years - it's all Phil ever called me... :) )


"Don't call me SIR, Private, I work for a living!" -- every sergeant ever

Quote from: chirine ba kal;847658
Khirgar is up on the NW Frontier, and is the big legion base for the Northwest on the eastern side of the Atkolel Heights. The city is up on a hill, and pretty heavily fortified. The buildings are pretty densely packed, due to the site, and there aren't many open areas like markets and squares. We spent a lot of time there in the beginning of Phil's campaign, about three years of gaming. It's very much an 'army town', and the Temple of Karakan is particularly strong there.


Khirgar was a great place to be a soldier; it's lovely to have a secure base to come back to after fighting the perfidious Yan Koryani where you can either celebrate your triumphs or lick your wounds.  Or perhaps just dump the stones out of your boots and get some sleep.  They know how to handle the press of troops, the logistics of keeping them housed and fed, and how to keep that many soldiers entertained with only a few friendly brawls between rival legions now and then.

The only bad part is that as the troops get tried, tempered, and hardened in campaign, they tend to get "rewarded" by being sent to more demanding places -- hence several years spent tramping around Milumaniya picking sand out of our kilts.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 10, 2015, 10:17:34 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;847679
Chirine great stuff!!! Thank you. I read that in Khirgar they have been avoiding Ditlana. Anything of note underground? Also who handles security(patrols and manning the towers)? The local militia, the Legions stationed there, the governor's men?

Also within the five empires, how common are bandit gangs, slavers, and pirates(I tend to see Harchar as an atypical example)? Who usually make up these groups? The poor, escaped slaves, dissatisfied nobles?

How are thieves and the above unsavory elements handled by the authorities? The high road? Slavery? Workhouses?

Thanks again,
H


The city has a smallish Underworld, mostly centered around the Temple of Karakan. There is a nice shrine to Sarku, and one to Ksarul, both of which are pretty strongly guarded. We had a very nasty time in the former, back in the day.

The city is defended by the locals and the city guards; the Governor has his own personal palace guards - a branch of the city troops - and these handle local duties. Each unit of the troops is responsible for a segment of the walls and towers, as are some of the more martial clans. The Legions posted to the city are not formally part of the garrison, but would be called on in an emergency - which is why the city would be a very difficult nut to crack.

Slavers are not common, but you do see them; they are very socially unacceptable, and nobody really wants to associate with them. Bandits and pirates per se are something you'd expect to see in the 'country' areas, away from the larger cities - the risks of getting nailed by the local authorities are just too great. The rule of thumb is that the more remote the area, the more likely one will run into these kinds of people. They usually will not attack large and / or obviously well-armed parties, preferring easier pickings. They are usually poor, low-status folks who prefer to make a living as bandits and pirates; it would be pretty rare to find a noble person in one of their gangs.

Harchar is most emphatically not a pirate. He's a buccaneer and smuggler, which is a very different thing entirely; yes, he does operate in the very (and I do mean very) far edges of the law, but he's very well-respected and is considered a good solid citizen. Yes, he drives the customs and excise to tears, but he fills a very important niche in both society and commerce. He describes himself and his merry crew of capitalists as "honest sea-faring merchants", which is very accurate; they just pursue a more lively wealth-enhancement strategy then most... :)

Escaped slaves are very rare; they are usually hunted down and killed as quckly as possible, as Gary Rudolph found out when he was the fief-holder of Ferenara. That was a very bloody mess, and a lot of people got killed in very messy ways.

As was mentioned back a away in this thread, captured 'criminals' usually get dead pretty quickly. They are rarely enslaved, as they pose too high a security risk. Prisons are mostly for debtors and 'politicials'; there are no workhouses, and people who'd be sent there are usually worked to death in labor details like dredging the Jakalla harbor.

Captured 'criminals' are also usually the dumb ones. There is a lot of what we'd call 'organized crime' on the part of some less reputable clans, but it's also part of the fabric of society. Seas in point; when I was traveling by road from Meku to Fasililtum, I made sure to let the Sakbe road guards know that I was coming. My Head Bearer got a hold of the local bandit chieftain, who I promptly hired as my 'local guide'. He made sure that we were not bothered on our trip, handing us off to each succeeding local band, and we had a very safe and very pleasant trip. We did encounter a band of 'unlicensed' bandits, who got very dead very quickly; I presented the heads at the next road guard post, collected the rewards for each, and then showed my nobility by distributing the money to my hired Bearers and 'local guides'. As a result, we had no further trouble on the road. At all. Period.

And we got preferred treatment for places to stay and supplies, too; we worked within the fabric of local society, not against it, and we had a wonderful time. The locals were happy, the guards were happy, and we were happy. Phil took great fun in describing local life for us, on the trip, and I think he enjoyed himself. As a 'great lord', I was always being consulted by the local worthies on Serious Subjects, and we had a great time.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 10, 2015, 10:18:27 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;847684
It's still often a thing around here, for EU and non-EU folks alike (but it's identity card and not passport you need to show).

Aren't brothels among the standard places for PCs to hide?


Thanks, Chirine, that gave me an idea I might try to incorporate:D!


You're welcome!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 10, 2015, 10:25:33 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;847712
Wonderful.
I can use a "Chop" to be the official stamp that makes it authentic. Can even have different ones for levels of authorization.

I assume these 'writs' are "Payable to the Bearer" and not written for a specific person?
If diverted to a person that they were not originally intended for they are still honored, correct?

"having to ship specie around" is not a bad thing as far as adventurers are concerned. Many bad things can happen to such shipments intentionally or otherwise.
Same with a "Chop" which would be guarded carefully.

Say you marry into a new clan, how loyal are you still to your birth clan?

Are there issues with very old clan members holding onto power?
What about dead ones that are still hanging around thanks to Sarku?
=


Yep; all true. And you do get 'pay to the bearer' as well as specific people, which does suggest impersonations... :) All sorts of adventures are possible, which is the idea, I suspect. :)

When you marry into a new clan, you still keep close ties to your old one. Everybody is careful not to step on any toes - real secrets are not divulged - but marrying is a form of alliance. You'd still make donations to your old clan, as this is a 'noble thing' to do.

Yes, and there's been a few conflicts between generations. Dead ones are kept way in the background, due to the societal mores, but the elders tend to leave the the more active 'younger generation' to the day to day affairs and concentrate on the more long-term and strategic issues.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 10, 2015, 10:27:32 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;847715
...they would sell you TEN IRON SPIKES for ONE Khiatar?

* cries *


Yes, it was a delight to see the looks on Phil's and Dave's faces when they finally figured out what I was up to. It was very tough to surprise them, but I managed... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 10, 2015, 10:30:05 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;847716
"Don't call me SIR, Private, I work for a living!" -- every sergeant ever



Khirgar was a great place to be a soldier; it's lovely to have a secure base to come back to after fighting the perfidious Yan Koryani where you can either celebrate your triumphs or lick your wounds.  Or perhaps just dump the stones out of your boots and get some sleep.  They know how to handle the press of troops, the logistics of keeping them housed and fed, and how to keep that many soldiers entertained with only a few friendly brawls between rival legions now and then.

The only bad part is that as the troops get tried, tempered, and hardened in campaign, they tend to get "rewarded" by being sent to more demanding places -- hence several years spent tramping around Milumaniya picking sand out of our kilts.


Castle Tilketl, anyone? *shudders*

By the way, I found Phil's original map from your battle at Third Mar, Glorious General, in the files. My, he really had it in for us, didn't he...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 10, 2015, 01:34:25 PM
When not on "official business and with the proper permits" what is the reaction of people and city guards to characters wearing armor?

Are carried weapons acceptable if not drawn? How about daggers?

When you first started, how often did you end up in combat or were your opponents able to be communicated with?
I'm guessing that many starts were short and bloody?
What replaced that when the new characters joined later?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 11, 2015, 11:34:36 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;847913
When not on "official business and with the proper permits" what is the reaction of people and city guards to characters wearing armor?

Are carried weapons acceptable if not drawn? How about daggers?

When you first started, how often did you end up in combat or were your opponents able to be communicated with?
I'm guessing that many starts were short and bloody?
What replaced that when the new characters joined later?
=


Well, it depends on who's wearing the armor. Priests and Priestess of the four war gods normally wear light, pretty much 'ceremonial' armor all the time when out in public; they also have more 'informal' outfits, but it's considered 'noble' to be seen wearing your 'good suit'. Same thing for anybody with a connection to the military; when the war with Yan Kor started, it became very fashionable for the same sort of light armor - a thin chlen-hide breast-and-back with ornate shoulder defenses and a light open-faced burgonet - to be worn everywhere. Likewise for temple and clan guards; there are a lot of people out on the street in armor, and nobody really takes much notice - except to jack up the prices, if the armor looks like the person might have money.

About the only reaction you might get is when the locals see that the people in armor are wearing 'practical' armor, and with obviously 'we-mean-business' weapons. This usually gets a polite inquiry from the city guards - "Please, Noble Sir, may I ask what's going on?" - and any sort of reasonable and polite answer - accompanied by a suitable donation, of course - will satisfy their curiosity. The rest of the local population usually assumes that one has business being in armor and under arms, and will generally ignore it unless a fight starts; then, they tend to join in on what looks like the side of who's got the most cash, and take that side in hopes of a suitable 'reward' for helping out.

So, generally, unless one starts trouble, one usually will be politely overlooked if one if in armor. Having worn my own steel suit, I can say that one does not wear full armor all the time; given Tekumel's torrid heat and humidity, one of course wears it when it's really needed, but one will wear much more 'normal clothes' most of the time.

Carried weapons are certainly acceptable. Anyone with any pretension to class and rank will have a sword (mace, for some priests like me) at their side to show that they are a 'noble' person. Low class people usually don't, simply because they have no need for them and no money to buy them. Being able to afford a weapon is a handy status marker, and will usually get you higher prices from merchants who you don't know.

Really rich folks have a servant to carry their weapons around for them. I can think of one player who's servant had a sort of 'golf bag' of his weapons that he carried around for him; which led to much golfing humor around the table - "This is a par three Ssu, Lord. Would you like the sword or the mace?"- and we often yelled "FORE!" whenever he went into a melee. He gave it up, after about the fifth or sixth time., right after the servant handed him a five-iron by mistake... :)

Basically, as long as one doesn't make threats or pull the thing out, you're fine.

Daggers are all over the place. People use them for all sorts of things, as you'd expect. Rich folks don't wear them, unless as a status symbol indicating that they are associated with the military or the war temples.

Hmm. When we first started, the biggest threat was from the older players; they really liked to pick fights within the game group - 'PvP' was their big thing. We spent more time fighting them then we did anything else, and it got old pretty quickly. Actual opponents? It depended on who or what they were. other humans could be communicated with, as were the 'friendly' races, but usually everything else had to be fought with so we could stay alive. It's the nature of the business; if you are going to be an 'adventurer', you are going to have 'adventures' and a lot of the folks you meet are going to be both hostile and not interested in negotiation.

After the Big Split, things dod get quieter. We went on just as many adventures, but we spent less and less time getting into situations where we had to fight and more and more into situations where we could do a little negotiation with possible foes. It may have helped that we developed a reputation as a bunch of really tough killers; picking a fight with us was considered a really messy way to get really dead really quickly. Possible opponents tended to look with palpable relief on any attempts by ourselves to negotiate with them; we always tried to make sure that everyone got something nice out of the situation, and it seemed to work pretty well.

Now, on occasion, we did kill opponents, but it was generally because they were being unreasonable and were bound to have a fight. Hostile non-humans and opponents like Undead were always to be fought, as they were not interested in any sort of negotiation.

I'm sorry; what are "starts"?

If we're talking about fights and melees, then we made very sure that they were very short and very bloody - we tended to kill anything that picked a fight with us, as we were very 'tactically minded' and always made sure that we had all possible advantages. And we got a reputation for it, and people tended to not want to pick fights with us, after a while.

Older players always made sure to protect 'younger' and 'weaker' players; that's simply (to us) part of playing as 'a party'. Mutual defense was always very important; we always had the armored people in a 'crust' around the unarmored ones. These, in turn, were usually the magic-users, who could provide 'fire support' from inside our little moving citadel. Think Arsuf, here.

"Hit 'em hard, and hit 'em fast; they won't stand!" - Chirine ba Kal, at the Battle of Anch'ke.

We kept on fighting literally until we stopped playing; melees and fights were something that we didn't normally start, but when they happened we always finished them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 11, 2015, 11:40:52 AM
Here's me steel suit, by the way:

(http://[URL=http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/chirinebakal/media/My%20game%20room%20and%20lounge/Vimuhla1988_zpsac652ae0.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a558/chirinebakal/My%20game%20room%20and%20lounge/Vimuhla1988_zpsac652ae0.jpg)[/URL][/IMG]

38 pounds all up; there are 15,800 1/4" steel rings in the mail hauberk.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 11, 2015, 01:35:04 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;848052

I'm sorry; what are "starts"?


Sorry for not being clear enough.
Besides the one long game you played in, I assume you "started" players in other games that you ran?
That was what I was talking about. Other EPT games where characters are just starting out.

Nice armor!
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 11, 2015, 02:08:46 PM
Hello,

What is your armor made of? I have seen the pictures of the other costumes. Really cool. Any advice for constructing/making our own? I was thinking of showing up to the NYC ComicCon dressed up(I could just imagine the who or what are you...).

Another question. Concerning the creatures of Tekumel. Someone told me that there were two creatures(monsters) included in the original EPT that did not make it into the later edition. Which ones?

Also did you encounter creatures not listed in the rules or sourcebooks during your adventures? Oh and what kinds of Saturday Night Specials did the Professor throw at you guys?

Thanks,
H

PS I found an article about Khirgar right under my nose. In the Seal of the Imperium, Vol.1 Issue 1. Thanks again :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 12, 2015, 02:02:19 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;848066
Sorry for not being clear enough.
Besides the one long game you played in, I assume you "started" players in other games that you ran?
That was what I was talking about. Other EPT games where characters are just starting out.

Nice armor!
=


Oh! Right! Duh - I should have realized... :)

Yes, we started a lot of new people in our games, both mine and Phil's. Normally, a person played just one PC while they gamed with us; we all played very 'long term' games and PCs. Some of us had one main PC, and an 'alternate' for when Phil wanted to do something a little different, but we normally played the same PC for years.

'Starts' - and I do like that term, by the way! - were always protected to some degree by the more advanced / experienced players. Playing in our campaigns was as much a social thing as a gaming thing, and so we tended to invite / select on the basis of compatibility with the group more then anything else. Until players 'learned the ropes', they would be carefully 'shielded; from anything that would kill them off; we wanted them to survive and stay with the group.

Now, having said that, we did allow people to get killed through their own stupidity. We looked at that as a learning experience for them. Normally, the new players would pay attention and ask intelligent questions, and they'd survive. Fighting was very carefully managed by the party to let the new players participate - and run real risks! - but nothing that they could not handle. Maybe with a little help, but they'd be able to deal with it.

We'd loan them armor, weapons, Eyes, etc. to help them; it was very much 'party play', as the planet is quite enough of a threat already!

Does this help? We'd do a lot of 'Cousin Woofle', I think you could say... :)

Tnank you; I'm very proud of the suit; you can thank Gronan for the wonderful molded breast and back - he was the man with the hammer. All I did was planish it and paint it.... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 12, 2015, 02:28:01 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;848070
Hello,

What is your armor made of? I have seen the pictures of the other costumes. Really cool. Any advice for constructing/making our own? I was thinking of showing up to the NYC ComicCon dressed up(I could just imagine the who or what are you...).

Another question. Concerning the creatures of Tekumel. Someone told me that there were two creatures(monsters) included in the original EPT that did not make it into the later edition. Which ones?

Also did you encounter creatures not listed in the rules or sourcebooks during your adventures? Oh and what kinds of Saturday Night Specials did the Professor throw at you guys?

Thanks,
H

PS I found an article about Khirgar right under my nose. In the Seal of the Imperium, Vol.1 Issue 1. Thanks again :0)


Glad you found the article! :)

We're talking about costuming on theRPGsite? I hope the server doesn't explode! :)

My armor is steel and brass for the metal parts - the convention was that things that should be gold were done in brass to give the right metallic effect. The plates - breast and back, pauldrons, grieves, and helmet are all metal. I am wearing a linen undertunic, padded cotton over-tunic, and then a leather jerkin to protect the cloth from the mail. The mail hauberk is steel, with brass accent rings along the edges, and small brass shoulder plates attached by steel rings. Lappets, short cloak at the back, and the aventail are all satin with trim. Belts and pouches are all leather. The buckler is wood with a copper face, and the big sword is actually made of pine that I carved to shape. The assorted daggers and knives are all steel, however.

The mail is real. 1/4" rings, 16 gauge steel wire, which are normal for Western mail and a little large for South Asian, and all run off on my hand lathe. The resulting coils all got cut up, and then it's linking every ring to every four others; repeat 15,800 times. This is simple butted mail, by the way. My neck guard is six-on-one mail, and quite impervious to pointed things.

The suit is very accurate to the drawings; I was working at the Guthrie Theater here in the Twin Cities at the time, and we had a rule that costumes had to look good at three feet. We went a little further then that, as we were into historical re-enactment and so if you look in my belt pouch, you'll find all the stuff I'd normally be carrying on Tekumel. Flint and steel, Kevuk dice, a little money, the usual.

Tekumel costumes are actually pretty easy to make; you break down the ornate costumes into their component parts, and it's a lot simpler. We did about twenty costumes for our groups, back in the day, and we had a lot of fun making and wearing them.

If you'd like more - we have patterns, and such! - please feel free to e-mail me directly: chirine@aethervox.net (chirine@aethervox.net)

I could go on and on and on and on and on about costumes; I used to do them professionally as well as for fun...

I think that two of the non-human races in EPT didn't get included in T:EPT for reasons of space; Swamp Folk were one, and I'd have to look it up to see which the other was.

Oh, yes, we found all sorts of creatures in our adventures, some of them sentient and quite deadly. There's a race of reptilians under Tu'umnra, for example; I'll dig out the drawing.

Phil threw everything up to and including the kitchen sink at us. I mentioned some of the SNS items and creatures in a previous post; I can list a lot more, if you like. He had one heck of an imagination, I tell you!!! :)

I really should do a list, but for GMs; wouldn't want to spoil the surprises for the players... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 12, 2015, 01:50:44 PM
How many "clanless" are there usually?
Especially in the Foreign Quarter?
Are they common and is it obvious what they are?

Where does drinking water come from in a city (such as Jakalla)?
Are there clans that distribute it or does each procure their own?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 13, 2015, 02:12:56 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;848322
How many "clanless" are there usually?
Especially in the Foreign Quarter?
Are they common and is it obvious what they are?

Where does drinking water come from in a city (such as Jakalla)?
Are there clans that distribute it or does each procure their own?
=


In 'polite society', not many; what you see are hired mercenaries and such, or low-class folks that the servants boss around.

They are thick as flies in the Quarter; most are just off the boat, or something.

Yes, very much so - everybody wears their clan glyph, so the 'Nakome' ?clanless really do stand out in a crowd.

Drinking water / all water comes from where ever they can get it. In Jakalla, you don't see many wells in clan compounds, but you do get some water in from aqueducts (which a lot of towns and cities have) run by the city authorities. Water carts / 'tankers' are also to be seen, run by traditional - often Avanthe - clans, who sell water to clans, temples, etc. You also see buildings with extensive roof collection systems, which feed cisterns under the buildings - which, in turn, have to be checked and maintained; think of a Nshe in the bathtub, and you get the idea for adventures. Have a look at the cistern system under ancient cities; some of them are still in use after centuries.

Generally, one does not drink the water from the rivers that are downstream of urban centers...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 13, 2015, 02:30:20 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;848184
Glad you found the article! :)

We're talking about costuming on theRPGsite? I hope the server doesn't explode! :)

My armor is steel and brass for the metal parts - the convention was that things that should be gold were done in brass to give the right metallic effect. The plates - breast and back, pauldrons, grieves, and helmet are all metal. I am wearing a linen undertunic, padded cotton over-tunic, and then a leather jerkin to protect the cloth from the mail. The mail hauberk is steel, with brass accent rings along the edges, and small brass shoulder plates attached by steel rings. Lappets, short cloak at the back, and the aventail are all satin with trim. Belts and pouches are all leather. The buckler is wood with a copper face, and the big sword is actually made of pine that I carved to shape. The assorted daggers and knives are all steel, however.

The mail is real. 1/4" rings, 16 gauge steel wire, which are normal for Western mail and a little large for South Asian, and all run off on my hand lathe. The resulting coils all got cut up, and then it's linking every ring to every four others; repeat 15,800 times. This is simple butted mail, by the way. My neck guard is six-on-one mail, and quite impervious to pointed things.

The suit is very accurate to the drawings; I was working at the Guthrie Theater here in the Twin Cities at the time, and we had a rule that costumes had to look good at three feet. We went a little further then that, as we were into historical re-enactment and so if you look in my belt pouch, you'll find all the stuff I'd normally be carrying on Tekumel. Flint and steel, Kevuk dice, a little money, the usual.

Tekumel costumes are actually pretty easy to make; you break down the ornate costumes into their component parts, and it's a lot simpler. We did about twenty costumes for our groups, back in the day, and we had a lot of fun making and wearing them.

If you'd like more - we have patterns, and such! - please feel free to e-mail me directly: chirine@aethervox.net (chirine@aethervox.net)

I could go on and on and on and on and on about costumes; I used to do them professionally as well as for fun...

I think that two of the non-human races in EPT didn't get included in T:EPT for reasons of space; Swamp Folk were one, and I'd have to look it up to see which the other was.

Oh, yes, we found all sorts of creatures in our adventures, some of them sentient and quite deadly. There's a race of reptilians under Tu'umnra, for example; I'll dig out the drawing.

Phil threw everything up to and including the kitchen sink at us. I mentioned some of the SNS items and creatures in a previous post; I can list a lot more, if you like. He had one heck of an imagination, I tell you!!! :)

I really should do a list, but for GMs; wouldn't want to spoil the surprises for the players... :)

Wow! Your ensamble is very complex indeed. Your decription read like one out of an Osprey Elite Warrior book on the Legions of the Petal Throne. A quick question about the device on your buckler. Is it a symbol of your legion or of The Lord of Flame(I can't make it out clearly from the photo)? Also to which Legion do you belong?

I know that Chirine Ba Kal has been your alter ego for many years, but have you played any other characters that you are fond of?

If you could please a few more of the SNS encountered from your adventures.

One more question for now. Can you please talk a bit about the tubeway system. Are there different size tubeway cars? As far as the tunnels go are there separate tunnels for different directions, or is there one big tunnel allowing cars to go in both directions? Have you ever explored the tubeways without a car(on foot)?

Thanks,
H :0)

PS I hope I'm not keeping you too busy. Thank you for your responses.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 13, 2015, 10:42:14 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;848481
Wow! Your ensamble is very complex indeed. Your decription read like one out of an Osprey Elite Warrior book on the Legions of the Petal Throne. A quick question about the device on your buckler. Is it a symbol of your legion or of The Lord of Flame(I can't make it out clearly from the photo)? Also to which Legion do you belong?


When you break down the costumes into their separate elements, they get to be pretty simple. We built all of this out of metal because we have all the technology to do it - and it looked cooler that way! :) (I have a lot of Ospreys in the game room...)

This is the outfit of a military priest of the Temple of Vimuhla; the blue trim and Seals of the Imperium on the pauldrons indicate that I'm an officer. The device on the little buckler is that of the Temple of Lord Vimuhla; Phil drew the original.

I am carried on the rolls of Searing Flame and M'nashu of Thri'il as a staff officer, and collect a stipend for each - I am a sort of 'reserve' officer, on-call for any campaigns. I also command my own legion, the Legion of the All-Consuming Flame; this is not an Imperial Legion, but a survival of an Engsvanyali one - and we may be older, dating from the Bednjallan Imperium - that I was given by Phil right before we marched off with our comrades in Translucient Emerald to the Sirsum micro-campaign. We're organized like Storm of Fire, which is also a 'mixed' legion used for 'special' operations.

I have four cohorts of line infantry; two of heavy pikemen, two cohorts of medium sword and shield troops, a cohort of missile troops (half bowmen, half crossbows) a cohort of mercenaries of various types, and about a cohort's worth of the usual odds and ends of sappers, commissary, medical, and other specialists.

We were originally raised as local defense troops around Hekellu, but due to the politics of the late civil war we're now serving as 'instruments of foreign policy' in foreign lands. (Basically, we do odd jobs for the Imperium.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 13, 2015, 10:53:08 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;848481

I know that Chirine Ba Kal has been your alter ego for many years, but have you played any other characters that you are fond of?

If you could please a few more of the SNS encountered from your adventures.

PS I hope I'm not keeping you too busy. Thank you for your responses.


No. I pretty much always played Chirine, just as the rest of the group played their characters the whole time. We all had 'alternate' PCs, as Phil would on occasion want to try something a little different, but it never 'gelled' either in the game or in the group, and it always was abandoned after a couple of game sessions. I don' think I can even remember their names, frankly; they made that little an impression.

Well, let's see. The lizard people under Tu'umnra; the masses of Undead in the Temple of Sarku commanded by the Worm Prince; Deq Dimani and baron Ald; Lord Fu Shi; the ancient military base at the South Pole; the planetary defense fortess on the moon; the ancient spaceport; hordes of Ru'un and Yeleth; the Black Ssu; The Hlyss nest-ship; Gij and Sons of Dlash; The late king of Salarvya; The Temple of Vimuhla plasma-people; the telepaths of Bayarsha and the Nyemesel Islands; the Brotherhood of the Half-human; Grey Ssu with energy weapons; the Hokun, in all their mounted nastiness; the Nom; the 'city sickness'; the Affair of the Malchairan Emerald; the Great Orrey in the Tsolei Isles; the Egg of the World; Avanthar.

We got around. :)

And your questions are always welcome - it's what I'm here for!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 13, 2015, 11:09:34 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;848481

One more question for now. Can you please talk a bit about the tubeway system. Are there different size tubeway cars? As far as the tunnels go are there separate tunnels for different directions, or is there one big tunnel allowing cars to go in both directions? Have you ever explored the tubeways without a car(on foot)?


Yes. There are your usual cars, which are spheres with (usually) an upper passenger compartment, and a lower machinery space. (Do not mess with the machinery. It's bad.) The hatch is normally round or oval, about the 'waistline' of the car, but they do vary; think all the models of automobiles, and you get the idea.

There are the larger 'troop carrier' cars, which are the same diameter as the personal cars, but longer - like long 'pills' or medicine capsules. These can go anywhere in the system, but will only stop at the stations with the long platforms - they will not go to the usual stations, as they won't fit. They go to the main stations at the old installations of the Ancients, where they pull up at dual level platforms; the upper is for passengers, the lower for cargo, and there are often automated cargo-handling machines present.

The tubes are single tubes, and all of them operate bi-directionally under the control of the AI that runs the system. It's one car per tube; no 'multi-lane' affairs. There are huge interchange points, basically big chambers with lots of holes in the walls, where the cars transfer from tube to tube. There are also repair and service stations, where the cars are held for use and maintained - and there are also 'private stations' where personal cars are stored, waiting for their long-dead owners.

You can't go in the tubes and survive; there's no air in them. They are maintained at a very low pressure, almost a vacuum, and there's also usually a very, very long drop to get past at the station opening. There is also only very faint, very dim lighting in the tunnels, so it's very hard to see. And you can't use magic, either; the tubeways are lined with metal plates. And the cars move at supersonic speeds, so you can get squished really easily.

The cars all have their own internal gravity engines, so you get no feel of motion when you are zipping along. You want to test that this feature is working, before you get into the car and go on a trip...

There is normally a sort of control panel at the 'front' of the compartment; this normally has ten destination selector buttons, which can be custom-programmed by inserting a memory disk into the slot on the panel, Unfortunately, the disc programming machines are long lost, you if you do find one of these, you have to use trial and erro to find out where they lead to. Do Not Lose Your Notes; This Is A Bad Thing.

The cars, are, of course, a great way to find adventure... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AxesnOrcs on August 13, 2015, 11:23:37 AM
My understanding is that Tekumal is very metal poor, or at least iron poor, so what are crossbows made of, particularly the lath/prod. Or for that matter arms and armor in general.

How much of an advantage is having iron weapons in Tekumal?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 14, 2015, 02:03:23 AM
Quote from: AxesnOrcs;848559
My understanding is that Tekumal is very metal poor, or at least iron poor, so what are crossbows made of, particularly the lath/prod. Or for that matter arms and armor in general.

How much of an advantage is having iron weapons in Tekumal?


You are correct. The Lords of Humanspace mined away a lot of the iron deposits, so what we have are the more obscure ores that were not valuable enough for the Ancients to exploit. We do have placer deposits, and some bog iron - but the stuff is very rare.

Metals in general are a sign of wealth and status - having a brass bowl shows that one is a high-status and probably wealthy person. Most people make do with perfectly serviceable pottery products, as well as the universally common Chlen hide...

Most crossbows and bows are composite ones; see also Payne-Gallway's wonderful book, "The Crossbow", for examples of these. Prof. Barker used this book extensively when he was working on EPT, and you'll find some real surprises in there. The author tested quite a few actual examples, and gave quite a lot of detail on his experiments and the construction of the things.

The most commonly-used material for armor and weapons of all sorts is the hide of the dinosaur-like Chlen beast. This large animal is used as a draft animal - slow, but steady - and is has the property of growing multiple layers of hide; this is 'peeled' off in sections, and the resulting material can be shaped and hardened very easily. The Professor said that the stuff is about as heavy as a modern 'engineering plastic', like Delrin, and about as hard as bronze; I had brought him some samples of the various plastics that my dad, a production engineer, was kind enough to supply.

What you get is a material as moldable as boiled leather, about as light, but tougher. It gets used for the vast majority of things - everything from the decorative collars and belts of plaques that we wear, to the plates of warriors's armor. You can also make blades from it, which are light and easy to use, but they are a little brittle - see next:

Iron and steel arms and armor are a big status symbol on Tekumel, no matter the culture. Having a steel suit of armor marks one as a very high-status and wealthy person, and (hopefully!) a mighty warrior - the high cost of the suit will make the owner a high-value target, as the suit is worth a fortune! Steel or iron weapons are also a status symbol, and just as expensive.

Metal weapons are very effective in combat; most Chlen-hide weapons will not penetrate steel, and most steel weapons will be very effective against Chlen-hide. Steel can also be imbued with the power of other-planar energy, making it even more effective. I have a steel-headed mace, which is a +4 to hit and a +5 to damage in EPT, and I use it for really serious killing. It's a great chitin-cracker, making it especially useable against foes like the insectoid Hylss. (Bugs. I hate bugs.) I also have a nice little round steel buckler, which is very effective; I've had opponents' Chlen-hide blades shatter when they hit the thing.

Does this help? And welcome to the thread, too! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 14, 2015, 08:22:39 PM
The EPT rules list large numbers for "Number Appearing".
Up to a dozen of rather nasty things not being uncommon according to the lists.
In some cases I see up to a hundred or more as possible.

Was this what you experienced in the beginning of your adventures?
Having to take on hordes of monsters?
Did that represent the population of an entire area that could be picked off a few at a time?

If this was the case how did you deal with it?
Were things provided in the surroundings that could even the odds?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 14, 2015, 08:53:33 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;848908
The EPT rules list large numbers for "Number Appearing".
Up to a dozen of rather nasty things not being uncommon according to the lists.
In some cases I see up to a hundred or more as possible.
Was that the equivalent of numbers in lair, i.e. a village of whatsits might have a hundred or more whatsits or numbers for a raid-in-force?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AxesnOrcs on August 14, 2015, 09:12:45 PM
I'm assuming this Cheln monster can be continuously peeled without needing to be slaughtered for its hide? Sounds like a truly versatile beast and material.  

Thanks.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 15, 2015, 12:13:34 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;848908
The EPT rules list large numbers for "Number Appearing".
Up to a dozen of rather nasty things not being uncommon according to the lists.
In some cases I see up to a hundred or more as possible.

Was this what you experienced in the beginning of your adventures?
Having to take on hordes of monsters?
Did that represent the population of an entire area that could be picked off a few at a time?

If this was the case how did you deal with it?
Were things provided in the surroundings that could even the odds?
=


Yes, to all of the above. Tekumel is a dangerous world, and adventuring in it is a very dangerous occupation.

Specifically, sometimes we'd get vast hordes of horrible creatures, and sometimes we'd just get a few at a time in waves. The only thing we noticed was that Phil tended to throw the hordes at us when he had smaller creatures, and the 'packets' would be of the larger ones.

We killed them. It was that, or be killed - and usually eaten, hopefully after we were dead - by them.

Nope. We had what we had, and that was about it. We'd have to use any surroundings as tactical points; we never had any 'equalizers' given to us. It was all about how smart and how fast we were.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 15, 2015, 12:14:52 PM
Quote from: Bren;848914
Was that the equivalent of numbers in lair, i.e. a village of whatsits might have a hundred or more whatsits or numbers for a raid-in-force?


Yes. The threat level depended on how good our opposition was. Animals, not so good and pretty easy to kill; sentients, very good and very hard to kill.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 15, 2015, 12:16:44 PM
Quote from: AxesnOrcs;848918
I'm assuming this Cheln monster can be continuously peeled without needing to be slaughtered for its hide? Sounds like a truly versatile beast and material.  

Thanks.


You're welcome!

Yes, they peel like an onion. They moan a lot while the peeling is being done, but it doesn't injure them. Chlen hide is incredibly useful - you can make anything you need out of it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on August 15, 2015, 02:00:31 PM
In fact, one might argue that Tekumeli people already are doing anything they need out of it;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 15, 2015, 03:44:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;849043

We killed them. It was that, or be killed - and usually eaten, hopefully after we were dead - by them.


When you say "we" how many does that represent and what mix?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 15, 2015, 08:06:08 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;849052
In fact, one might argue that Tekumeli people already are doing anything they need out of it;).


Oh, yes; very true!!! Everything from buckets to plates - a Tekumel version of IKEA, really... :)

And I do get some really great gaming stuff at my local IKEA - the little LED light domes that we used in the night battle, for example, or in Underworlds. They make great 'lantern simulators', and they even come in six colors...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 15, 2015, 08:23:57 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;849056
When you say "we" how many does that represent and what mix?
=


Oh! Great question! Let's look at a sample of the original Thursday Night Group from the late 1970s and early 1980s - this is pretty much at random, and is a very non-scientific sampling:

"regulars":
Jim Danielson - magic-user
Rick Bjugen - magic-user
Erica Simon - priestess / magic-user
Mike Bakula - priest / magic-user
Greg Klett - priest / magic-user
Kathy Marshall - fighter
Ken Fletcher - fighter
Mike Mornard - fighter
Jeff Berry - priest / fighter-magic-user

When we had visitors, they usually were fighters and occasionally magic-users, but never more than one and maybe two at any game session; there just wasn't the physical space around the damn ping-pong ball table for any more people. Nine was tight, and ten to eleven was pack in like sardines.

So, four fighters, four priests, and six magic-users; some of us 'doubled up' as needed.

We did hire twenty marines for Ken when we shipped off to adventure with Arneson (fighter), mostly to keep Dave and his merry marauders honest and on course. later, when Gronan got his legion, we had plenty of fighters. Much later, I got my legion and guards, so I had my own set of ruffians to look after problems.

Phil B., dramatically: "You encounter six bandits!"
Jeff B., unimpressed: "We have 6,000 infantry, Phil."
Mike M., interestedly: "Do I get Experience Points for reading the report?"

Whereupon there was a sandstorm. Just a coincidence, of course. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 16, 2015, 12:36:19 AM
BWAAAHAHAHA!

I remember that.  Phil damn near swallowed his horrid little cigar, clenched his teeth, and said "Very funny."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 16, 2015, 12:45:59 AM
You know, it was interesting in sort of a grim way to remember how things went when we got shifted from the western front near Khirgar to the eastern front in Milumanaya -- shifting the game, in my mind, from "You're In The Army Now" to "The Thin Blue Line."  (Tsolyanu's national color is blue.)

Milumanaya is a freakin' desert filled with small nomadic tribes and tiny villages.  All they have in common is approximately the same language.  The "King" of Milumanaya was perfectly content to get rich presents from both Yan Kor and Tsolyanu for "permission" for troops to pass through "his land."  The truth of the matter was that the tribes didn't give a rancid lump of Chlen shit for what that clown in the one big city in the desert said, they hated everybody who wasn't them.

"We hate you.  We hate the Yan Koryani too, but you're here today and they're not."

We saw it as the locals accepting our coin for supplies and "guides" and betraying us.

The locals saw it as guerrilla warfare against hated outsiders.

It reached the point where I was on the verge of

"Excuse me, Glorious General, our scouts located a village three tsan in that direction."

"Kill everyone in it and burn it to the ground."

Not because I wanted to be "evil" or even "harsh" or "oppressive"... it was just that the ONLY way to secure the flanks of the Legion was to make sure that we were the only living creatures within two days' march.

It never QUITE reached that point because we actually talked about it, and decided it was time to shift the emphasis of the game.

Can you tell that Phil spent time in Afghanistan?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 16, 2015, 09:00:36 AM
Did creatures like Chnelh "Ape Mutant" co-exist with humans and other creatures in the underworld?

Was the ecology of the Underworld a concern?
Did it all make sense once it was explored?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 16, 2015, 12:10:00 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;849135
BWAAAHAHAHA!

I remember that.  Phil damn near swallowed his horrid little cigar, clenched his teeth, and said "Very funny."


Personally, I think it was your guileless, innocent, and utterly sincere expression and your blinking your steely blue eyes at him with child-like adoration for his genius as a GM that did it... :)

Gods, did we all laugh when the sandstorm hit - which only made the old coot madder... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 16, 2015, 12:12:59 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;849140
You know, it was interesting in sort of a grim way to remember how things went when we got shifted from the western front near Khirgar to the eastern front in Milumanaya -- shifting the game, in my mind, from "You're In The Army Now" to "The Thin Blue Line."  (Tsolyanu's national color is blue.)

Milumanaya is a freakin' desert filled with small nomadic tribes and tiny villages.  All they have in common is approximately the same language.  The "King" of Milumanaya was perfectly content to get rich presents from both Yan Kor and Tsolyanu for "permission" for troops to pass through "his land."  The truth of the matter was that the tribes didn't give a rancid lump of Chlen shit for what that clown in the one big city in the desert said, they hated everybody who wasn't them.

"We hate you.  We hate the Yan Koryani too, but you're here today and they're not."

We saw it as the locals accepting our coin for supplies and "guides" and betraying us.

The locals saw it as guerrilla warfare against hated outsiders.

It reached the point where I was on the verge of

"Excuse me, Glorious General, our scouts located a village three tsan in that direction."

"Kill everyone in it and burn it to the ground."

Not because I wanted to be "evil" or even "harsh" or "oppressive"... it was just that the ONLY way to secure the flanks of the Legion was to make sure that we were the only living creatures within two days' march.

It never QUITE reached that point because we actually talked about it, and decided it was time to shift the emphasis of the game.

Can you tell that Phil spent time in Afghanistan?


Yeah, I'd agree with this. I never really understood Phil until I learned about the Afghans, and I never really understood the Afghans until I learned about Phil. It's a very, very different culture, and a very different way to look at life then what we Westerners have.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 16, 2015, 12:21:18 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;849187
Did creatures like Chnelh "Ape Mutant" co-exist with humans and other creatures in the underworld?

Was the ecology of the Underworld a concern?
Did it all make sense once it was explored?
=


Yes.

No. We figured that it was mostly an artificial construct that was being updated and restocked by the locals. All we did, as licensed looters, was to cull the slow and stupid.

No. Again, what went on in the Underworld was part of the meta-game of the living, breathing Tekumel that Phil had going. We didn't worry about the ecology much, as we were just too busy trying to survive our adventures.

As players, we accepted what was going on as our world, and we didn't worry all that much about the 'deep thoughts' or 'complex issues'. There's a massive discussion going on over at the Tekumel yahoo group about the Ssu atmosphere, which I simply can't even begin to follow in all it's complexity and learned discussion.

We generally looked at something, said "Oh! That's cool, Phil!" and then ran like hell before it killed us - or the owners of this most recent marvel caught up with us. We just were not very deep thinkers, I guess.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 16, 2015, 01:59:42 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;849223
We generally looked at something, said "Oh! That's cool, Phil!" and then ran like hell before it killed us - or the owners of this most recent marvel caught up with us. We just were not very deep thinkers, I guess.
That is one thing I think has changed for most gamers today. "Runaway! Run like hell!" is not nearly as popular as a statement of intent as it used to be.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 16, 2015, 03:46:48 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;849223
As players, we accepted what was going on as our world, and we didn't worry all that much about the 'deep thoughts' or 'complex issues'.

It's like people these days that don't just "enjoy the ride" of old movies. They have to point out the wires and painted scenery.
It doesn't increase their enjoyment as far as I can tell but it does ruin it for others.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 16, 2015, 03:53:24 PM
What happens if you run away from a threat in the Underworld that chases you to the surface?

Say looting a shrine of a God none of you worship and its guards are after you.

If they catch you on the surface are you held accountable or do they pretend that nothing happened?

Assuming that the place on the surface is public.
I would think if it was private and they could dispatch you without being detected, they would.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 16, 2015, 06:28:43 PM
Quote from: Bren;849236
That is one thing I think has changed for most gamers today. "Runaway! Run like hell!" is not nearly as popular as a statement of intent as it used to be.


Interesting! I wonder if that's because of a shift in play style, or maybe a perception that PCs are 'disposable'? I've noticed that at the local FLGS, RPG gamers seem to like the process / mechanics of rolling up PCs more then they do running them; I wonder if this is due to there being fewer 'long-term' campaigns and more 'one-shot' games?

Back in our day, we were very 'invested' in PC survival, as we hated the mechanics of rolling up PCs, and tried very hard not to get the ones we had killed for no good reason. After a while, we got sorta attached to them, and kept on playing them...

Hmmm. Lots to think about, here...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 16, 2015, 07:35:19 PM
Hello,

A follow-up question about the chlen. Are the chlen ever spooked by anything? Is there a such thing as a chlen stampede?

Also can you expand a bit on the Temple of Vhimula plasma-people?

Thank you,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 16, 2015, 07:51:37 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;849258
It's like people these days that don't just "enjoy the ride" of old movies. They have to point out the wires and painted scenery.
It doesn't increase their enjoyment as far as I can tell but it does ruin it for others.
=


Yes, I'd agree with that. One of the things I used to like to do is show the classic movies to people that Phil said had inspired him to create the world of the Petal Throne:

The Thief of Baghdad - 1924 and 1940


One batch of F/Sf fans I showed these to complained that the 1924 version wasn't in color, and didn't have any dialog; they complained that the 194 one had really crummy special effects.

Then I told them when the two films had been made. It did shut them up, but I didn't do it again.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 16, 2015, 07:58:36 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;849259
What happens if you run away from a threat in the Underworld that chases you to the surface?

Say looting a shrine of a God none of you worship and its guards are after you.

If they catch you on the surface are you held accountable or do they pretend that nothing happened?

Assuming that the place on the surface is public.
I would think if it was private and they could dispatch you without being detected, they would.
=


If it was creatures, they got killed as we could summon the Tomb Police to help us. If it was some human guards, the 'hot pursuit' ended once we got out in public, and everybody would  get together for a quick conference to see how we could hush the whole thing up.  We'd try to make sure that the pursuing guards got something, as we might need a favor from them later, and we'd gratefully accept a little something from them to make sure we didn't tell anyone about the incident.

However, as you mention, if the 'hot pursuit' wound up someplace where the Tomb Police or other nosy folks wouldn't see anything, there was a very good chance that we'd have to fight for our lives. Never mind the loot; dead is dead, or at least inconvenient.

So, yes, I think you have it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 16, 2015, 08:07:02 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;849301
Hello,

A follow-up question about the chlen. Are the chlen ever spooked by anything? Is there a such thing as a chlen stampede?

Also can you expand a bit on the Temple of Vhimula plasma-people?

Thank you,

H :0)


Right. No, not really; they aren't that bright. It takes a lot, like a direct hit by lighting, to get them spooked. It's pretty hard to get their attention in the first place, as they don't really have any natural predators to worry about - aside from a passing Sro-dragon or something equally huge - so they are pretty docile.

(A Sro I know said that they don't eat Chlen unless they are really, really desperate. There are lots of other edibles around that are a lot easier to nibble on.)

It is possible to have a stampede; I've seen one or two in my career. You simply walk out of the path of the beasts. They are that slow, and not very agile, so it's very easy to get out of their way. The flip side of that is they because they are usually so massive, nothing aside from a substantial building will stop them; they will go right through a farm house or something similar without even noticing.

Elephants, hippos, and rhinos are graceful ballet dancers and sprinters in comparison to Chlen; it's why they don't get used in warfare, for example - just as draft animals and the producers of the hide.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 16, 2015, 08:57:05 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;849301

Also can you expand a bit on the Temple of Vhimula plasma-people?

Thank you,

H :0)


Okay, but we might get a little metaphysical, here. Please bear with me.

So we're finally in Hekellu, and I'm casually poking around the palace where we're supposed to be the Imperial Government - we're under siege by our loyal citizenry, actually - and (as might be expected) I find the proverbial stairway leading down. Being a PC, I gather up some other PCs and some troopers, and we go have a look. We find that while Hekellu does have an Underworld, but it's pretty waterlogged due to the high water table which in turn is due to us being right on the lake. It makes for a very soggy little dungeon crawl, and we're getting pretty cranky about it when we find a nice dry room with four entrances (leading off to four corridors) with a nice Tomb of Somebody in the middle of the room.

We're debating having a look in the thing when we manage to clean it up enough to read the inscriptions on the thing. We're already pretty suspicious, because this is the first and only dry room we've manage to find, and so far the place has been full of nasty wet things that have been trying to kill us. (Phil had some really nasty monsters, and we were getting both the Underworld, Swamp, and Water lists. All at once. We were Not Amused. Phil was. Anyway:)

So I'm looking over the inscriptions - always A Very Good Thing To Do, trust me on this - when one of the players starts fiddling around with the carven decoration. Sure enough, the guy finds The Secret Button, pushes it without telling the rest of us, and gets the lid to open up. We all think seriously about killing him on the spot for being unhelpful, but our attention is diverted by the arrival of the Designated Tomb Guardian, who materializes out of the nice decorative wall carvings. The decor is all Early Temple Of Vimuhla, which is good for me, as I am a card-carrying member of the Temple's not-so-secret Society, the Incandescent Blaze Society; thus, I am able to read the notes left on the walls and tomb, and figure out that we've disturbed the rest of Somebody Important - an ancient governor of the city, from the looks of the tomb.

This ancient VIP has paid the Temple of Vimuhla for the use of one of their super-secret and super-fanatic members; the deal is that when somebody in the Temple wants to become an Immortal Guardian, they trade their mortal bodies for immortal ones made up of the fifth state of matter, high-energy plasma. This is done by a very secret and very ancient process, left over from the Lords of Humanspace (who have a lot for answer for, if you want my opinion.) They live off of other-planar energy, and pretty much ignore things like gravity. They do not like being underwater, as they end to cause a lot of boiling and excitement, and they 'catch a chill' if they try it. They live in air, mostly, and are quite intelligent - their human intelligence is transferred over to their new bodies. They can and do manifest as humanoid, but the glowing flames and plasma are a real give-away. The occasional display of giant wings made of flaming plasma are also a hint, I think.

They also seem to retain any abilities that they had in mortal life, like spells and such, and can communicate with us if they work at it; telepathy is the usual way of talking to them, however. (They can apparently talk to each other, too.) They can fight in melees, and simply have to touch something to set it on fire or melt it. They can control their 'surface temperature', and can be touched; they can not be harmed by ordinary weapons of any sort. (We didn't use an Eye or anything, as we were Vimuhla people and it seemed like A Bad Idea to try.) From what we can tell, they can also do other-planar travel, but I would not care to make the trip with one.

They are very, very, very rare, and easily qualify as one of Phil's 'Saturday Night Specials'. These are very powerful beings, on the same order as the Undying Wizards or the high-level Undead of the Temple of Sarku, who are also still able to use sorcery. Phil did not provide stats - he never did, for his SNS creatures - and we didn't ask; it seemed rude. If you had one show up in a game, I'd treat them as a 'Fire Elemental' or something similar.

In this particular case, we happened to be Vimuhla worshippers, so everything was fine. The Dearly Departed, who was supposed to be in the tomb, had never been installed, so it all ended well for everyone. What happened after that is another tale - in Book Five, 'The Golden Seal', of "To Serve The Petal Throne", to be exact... :)

Does this help any?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 16, 2015, 10:15:53 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;849319
when one of the players starts fiddling around with the carven decoration. Sure enough, the guy finds The Secret Button, pushes it without telling the rest of us, and gets the lid to open up. We all think seriously about killing him on the spot for being unhelpful,


If I had a khaitar for every time that happened, I'd be able to end the war by BUYING Yan Kor.

Retail, no less.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 16, 2015, 11:39:55 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;849290
Interesting! I wonder if that's because of a shift in play style, or maybe a perception that PCs are 'disposable'?
I'd say yes to the former and no to the latter.

For the former, in the old days, everyone knew 'that guy' or even a few folks who combined a short attention span with an almost irresistible desire to push every button, open every door, drink from every fountain, or touch and fool with every unusual object - usually without inspecting it first. But those few folks excepted, the rest of us tried very hard to keep our PCs alive, but we knew that bad decisions or even bad luck could get you killed. Nowadays the preference for characters to be virtually unkillable or to just flat not be killed without player consent seems much more prevalent now than it was in the old days.

As far as disposable PCs, I'd say that if anything, people see characters as less disposable than in the old style. There are however, a lot more folks who appear to see campaigns themselves as disposable or of short term duration. Consequently, even thought the characters themselves can't or won't be killed, they don't get the long term play that you saw with Phil, because the whole world/universe/campaign ends.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;849303
One batch of F/Sf fans I showed these to complained that the 1924 version wasn't in color, and didn't have any dialog; they complained that the 194 one had really crummy special effects.

Then I told them when the two films had been made. It did shut them up, but I didn't do it again.
The movie Napoleon by Abel Gance included every camera shot and trick until the invention of digital manipulation and the rotating camera. And it included 9 separate simultaneous projections and a synced projection across three entire movie screens for the epic shots...in 1927.

And Bardelys the Magnificent the 1926 American romantic silent film directed by King Vidor has an absolutely wonderful duel between Bardelys and a jealous husband where, instead of killing the husband, Bardelys fences with him while first chastising him for ignoring his wife, then giving tips on how to regain her affections, and then reconciling the two before kicking them both out of his hotel. Then the movie has one of the absolutely best swashbuckling crazy action scene climaxes ever. The wire fu of Hong Kong films pales in comparison.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;849319
when one of the players starts fiddling around with the carven decoration. Sure enough, the guy finds The Secret Button, pushes it without telling the rest of us, and gets the lid to open up. We all think seriously about killing him on the spot for being unhelpful,
 
As I said, everybody knew one of 'those guys.'
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 17, 2015, 02:00:42 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;849319
Okay, but we might get a little metaphysical, here. Please bear with me.

So we're finally in Hekellu, and I'm casually poking around the palace where we're supposed to be the Imperial Government - we're under siege by our loyal citizenry, actually - and (as might be expected) I find the proverbial stairway leading down. Being a PC, I gather up some other PCs and some troopers, and we go have a look. We find that while Hekellu does have an Underworld, but it's pretty waterlogged due to the high water table which in turn is due to us being right on the lake. It makes for a very soggy little dungeon crawl, and we're getting pretty cranky about it when we find a nice dry room with four entrances (leading off to four corridors) with a nice Tomb of Somebody in the middle of the room.

We're debating having a look in the thing when we manage to clean it up enough to read the inscriptions on the thing. We're already pretty suspicious, because this is the first and only dry room we've manage to find, and so far the place has been full of nasty wet things that have been trying to kill us. (Phil had some really nasty monsters, and we were getting both the Underworld, Swamp, and Water lists. All at once. We were Not Amused. Phil was. Anyway:)

So I'm looking over the inscriptions - always A Very Good Thing To Do, trust me on this - when one of the players starts fiddling around with the carven decoration. Sure enough, the guy finds The Secret Button, pushes it without telling the rest of us, and gets the lid to open up. We all think seriously about killing him on the spot for being unhelpful, but our attention is diverted by the arrival of the Designated Tomb Guardian, who materializes out of the nice decorative wall carvings. The decor is all Early Temple Of Vimuhla, which is good for me, as I am a card-carrying member of the Temple's not-so-secret Society, the Incandescent Blaze Society; thus, I am able to read the notes left on the walls and tomb, and figure out that we've disturbed the rest of Somebody Important - an ancient governor of the city, from the looks of the tomb.

This ancient VIP has paid the Temple of Vimuhla for the use of one of their super-secret and super-fanatic members; the deal is that when somebody in the Temple wants to become an Immortal Guardian, they trade their mortal bodies for immortal ones made up of the fifth state of matter, high-energy plasma. This is done by a very secret and very ancient process, left over from the Lords of Humanspace (who have a lot for answer for, if you want my opinion.) They live off of other-planar energy, and pretty much ignore things like gravity. They do not like being underwater, as they end to cause a lot of boiling and excitement, and they 'catch a chill' if they try it. They live in air, mostly, and are quite intelligent - their human intelligence is transferred over to their new bodies. They can and do manifest as humanoid, but the glowing flames and plasma are a real give-away. The occasional display of giant wings made of flaming plasma are also a hint, I think.

They also seem to retain any abilities that they had in mortal life, like spells and such, and can communicate with us if they work at it; telepathy is the usual way of talking to them, however. (They can apparently talk to each other, too.) They can fight in melees, and simply have to touch something to set it on fire or melt it. They can control their 'surface temperature', and can be touched; they can not be harmed by ordinary weapons of any sort. (We didn't use an Eye or anything, as we were Vimuhla people and it seemed like A Bad Idea to try.) From what we can tell, they can also do other-planar travel, but I would not care to make the trip with one.

They are very, very, very rare, and easily qualify as one of Phil's 'Saturday Night Specials'. These are very powerful beings, on the same order as the Undying Wizards or the high-level Undead of the Temple of Sarku, who are also still able to use sorcery. Phil did not provide stats - he never did, for his SNS creatures - and we didn't ask; it seemed rude. If you had one show up in a game, I'd treat them as a 'Fire Elemental' or something similar.

In this particular case, we happened to be Vimuhla worshippers, so everything was fine. The Dearly Departed, who was supposed to be in the tomb, had never been installed, so it all ended well for everyone. What happened after that is another tale - in Book Five, 'The Golden Seal', of "To Serve The Petal Throne", to be exact... :)

Does this help any?


Yes!!! Fantastic story. Thanks.

I took a screenshot of this from YouTube some time ago. I can not find any reference to it anywhere. Any information in regard would be great. Please see attached photo.

Many Thanks,

H :0)

PS Just wondering if you like the way this thread is going...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 17, 2015, 09:04:13 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;849354
Yes!!! Fantastic story. Thanks.

I took a screenshot of this from YouTube some time ago. I can not find any reference to it anywhere. Any information in regard would be great. Please see attached photo.

Many Thanks,

H :0)

PS Just wondering if you like the way this thread is going...


You're welcome!

The photo is of the cover artwork for Bill Hoyt's wonderful game, "Quest", that he created with Dave Megarry' help; it's a Tekumel version of "Dungeon", and it's a lot of fun to play. Bill made six prototype copies of the game, and was kind enough to give me one for my archives.

Bill goes way back; he's the "William Hoyt of W.A.W." mentioned in the TSR editions of EPT, and was one of the people - along with Gronan - who persuaded Phil to publish in the first place.

Re the PS: I am enjoying the questions, and helping out with some answers. So, I am happy with the thing, but it's not about me - it's about what all of you want to see... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 17, 2015, 09:08:58 AM
Quote from: Bren;849339


The movie Napoleon by Abel Gance included every camera shot and trick until the invention of digital manipulation and the rotating camera. And it included 9 separate simultaneous projections and a synced projection across three entire movie screens for the epic shots...in 1927.

And Bardelys the Magnificent the 1926 American romantic silent film directed by King Vidor has an absolutely wonderful duel between Bardelys and a jealous husband where, instead of killing the husband, Bardelys fences with him while first chastising him for ignoring his wife, then giving tips on how to regain her affections, and then reconciling the two before kicking them both out of his hotel. Then the movie has one of the absolutely best swashbuckling crazy action scene climaxes ever. The wire fu of Hong Kong films pales in comparison.


Fascinating. I think you're right, too.

And you know about these two films!!! Wonderful!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 17, 2015, 12:45:03 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;849410
Fascinating. I think you're right, too.

And you know about these two films!!! Wonderful!!! :)
I heard about Bardelys from Black Vumea's Really Bad Eggs blog. The book is also quite good.

I saw Napoleon at the 1980 US re-release at the Kansas City Midland Theater, a 3,573-seat movie palace built in 1927 in French and Italian Baroque with an exterior in a Renaissance Revival style in cream glazed terra cotta brick, adorned with engaged pilasters, winged figures, leaves, flowers, swags, volutes, urns, and arches. A four-story arched window rose above a copper and gold marquee that contained 3,600 light bulbs. The theater is well known for its over 500,000 feet of gold leaf, five giant Czechoslovakian hand-cut crystal chandeliers, irreplaceable art objects and precious antiques, and spectacular wood and plaster work. One couldn't have asked for a better venue.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 17, 2015, 02:09:28 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;849409
Re the PS: I am enjoying the questions, and helping out with some answers. So, I am happy with the thing, but it's not about me - it's about what all of you want to see... :)


It seems that you prefer giving personal examples which is wonderful but are also spoilers for your books. I want the first book in my sweaty hands and to be surprised. ;)

I feel bad asking game rule and setting style questions mostly.
I think my saving grace is that (hopefully) I'm not the only one that can use the answers.
I'd like to think many can use "training wheels" to get started not just me.
"Training wheels" of what gives the setting its unique flavor.

I think that one of the things that made the old games great was the unknown.
These days players can Google up the opponent and "solve" most situations.
Most of the thrill of The Unknown is gone.

I think that since EPT has been under the radar for so long, it still has a lot of that unknown remaining.
Especially if people realize they can make it their own* and ignore the wrath of the Setting Nazis.

*Mine being a mix of D&D, Traveller and Call of Cthulhu.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 17, 2015, 09:42:05 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;849409
You're welcome!

The photo is of the cover artwork for Bill Hoyt's wonderful game, "Quest", that he created with Dave Megarry' help; it's a Tekumel version of "Dungeon", and it's a lot of fun to play. Bill made six prototype copies of the game, and was kind enough to give me one for my archives.

Bill goes way back; he's the "William Hoyt of W.A.W." mentioned in the TSR editions of EPT, and was one of the people - along with Gronan - who persuaded Phil to publish in the first place.

Re the PS: I am enjoying the questions, and helping out with some answers. So, I am happy with the thing, but it's not about me - it's about what all of you want to see... :)

 
Chirine,

Would you happen to know who did the cover art? Just Curious.

More questions forthcoming...

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 18, 2015, 01:41:27 AM
Quote from: Bren;849454
I heard about Bardelys from Black Vumea's Really Bad Eggs blog. The book is also quite good.

I saw Napoleon at the 1980 US re-release at the Kansas City Midland Theater, a 3,573-seat movie palace built in 1927 in French and Italian Baroque with an exterior in a Renaissance Revival style in cream glazed terra cotta brick, adorned with engaged pilasters, winged figures, leaves, flowers, swags, volutes, urns, and arches. A four-story arched window rose above a copper and gold marquee that contained 3,600 light bulbs. The theater is well known for its over 500,000 feet of gold leaf, five giant Czechoslovakian hand-cut crystal chandeliers, irreplaceable art objects and precious antiques, and spectacular wood and plaster work. One couldn't have asked for a better venue.


I love Black Vumea's blog!

My 1980 "Napoleon" was at the Walker Art Center here in Minneapolis - nowhere nearly as great a place to see it, though!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 18, 2015, 01:53:02 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;849481
It seems that you prefer giving personal examples which is wonderful but are also spoilers for your books. I want the first book in my sweaty hands and to be surprised. ;)

I feel bad asking game rule and setting style questions mostly.
I think my saving grace is that (hopefully) I'm not the only one that can use the answers.
I'd like to think many can use "training wheels" to get started not just me.
"Training wheels" of what gives the setting its unique flavor.

I think that one of the things that made the old games great was the unknown.
These days players can Google up the opponent and "solve" most situations.
Most of the thrill of The Unknown is gone.

I think that since EPT has been under the radar for so long, it still has a lot of that unknown remaining.
Especially if people realize they can make it their own* and ignore the wrath of the Setting Nazis.

*Mine being a mix of D&D, Traveller and Call of Cthulhu.
=


Um, all right, I can understand this, but I don't regard my stories as being 'spoilers' for the book. The book will be in six volumes, because it's going to run about 300,000 words. I'm already up to 108,500 words across the six volumes, with no sign of slowing down. My career in the campaign fits pretty well into six major phases, hence the six volumes. Also, 300,000 words is about three times longer then most novels come in at, these days, and if we tried to do it all in one volume it'd be thicker then a cinder block. (And a lot heavier, too.) We had about 2,500 real-time hours of gaming with Phil, so I have a lot of stories to tell.

If anything, I regard my stories here as 'bait', to get you to have a look at Phil's work and - when it's available - my own account of my times with him. If what you read intrigues you enough to want to have a look at Tekumel, then I've done what I promised him I'd do so many years ago.

And please don't be afraid to ask me questions, of any kind. That's what I enjoy doing, and why I'm here. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 18, 2015, 01:54:03 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;849577
Chirine,

Would you happen to know who did the cover art? Just Curious.

More questions forthcoming...

H :0)


No, I'm sorry; I do not. I will ask Bill for you, next time I talk to him.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 18, 2015, 09:24:58 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;849621
I love Black Vumea's blog!
Me too. He put me wise to Stanley Weyman who was a writer I was not familiar with. I'm sad that he's gone inactive as I really enjoyed his posts and his La Ballet de l'Acier Obsidian Portal site gave me so much of a head start for my Honor+Intrigue game and so many ideas.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 18, 2015, 01:45:56 PM
In the EPT rule book there is table with loot types.

How often is coins actually the loot and not just common items of equivalent value?
Do these come from the transfers of wealth between clans for those "balancing" payments previously discussed?

Seems like a good way to generate an adventure would be to create a loot pile and work backwards to where it came from?

Say this was a "balance payment", would the originator still owe the money unless the receiver had taken receipt?
Can it be claimed by a clan if it is recovered by a 3rd party? Which clan?
If so, how would that work?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 18, 2015, 02:33:43 PM
Quote from: Bren;849667
Me too. He put me wise to Stanley Weyman who was a writer I was not familiar with. I'm sad that he's gone inactive as I really enjoyed his posts and his La Ballet de l'Acier Obsidian Portal site gave me so much of a head start for my Honor+Intrigue game and so many ideas.


Yep, great blog.

And I can understand how it's hard to keep a blog going, too. There comes a point where one starts to wonder if anyone is listening, or that one has anything useful to say. I hope he'll be back; patience, I guess.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 18, 2015, 02:45:44 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;849711
In the EPT rule book there is table with loot types.

How often is coins actually the loot and not just common items of equivalent value?
Do these come from the transfers of wealth between clans for those "balancing" payments previously discussed?

Seems like a good way to generate an adventure would be to create a loot pile and work backwards to where it came from?

Say this was a "balance payment", would the originator still owe the money unless the receiver had taken receipt?
Can it be claimed by a clan if it is recovered by a 3rd party? Which clan?
If so, how would that work?
=


In my experience, 'coins' were coins. They might be of different historical periods, suitable for where they were found, but the numbers in the table represent the 'modern-day' cash value. The accounting was easier for Phil, that way, and it was also the style of play at the time.

So, you might have a hoard worth, say, 3,000 Kaitars / Gold Pieces, but it might be made up of the Engsvanyali 'Suor', which is a large coin worth about 100 Kaitars. The intention was to give the GM more options for further adventures.

Some hoards are the 'transfer payments', some are lost treasure hoards like you find all over the UK. It varies, and it's a possible adventure starter. So you have it exactly.

If this was a lost payment, unless the sender has a receipt from the delivery, they still owe it as a debit - and PCs get hired to recover the lost cash, if at all possible.

Yes. Think maritime salvage. If there is good solid evidence as to who the hoard belongs to, it's the custom to return the money to the owner - who is expected to provide the finders / salvors with a nice reward of some sort. This is an easy way into a good clan for new PCs, by the way.

Otherwise, without proof of ownership, it's normally 'finders keepers'. A box of goodies with no owner's name on it is fair game for any passing PC, really.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 18, 2015, 07:27:05 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;849720
If there is good solid evidence as to who the hoard belongs to, it's the custom to return the money to the owner ...


That brings up the question of another type of adventure.
Since so many records are kept by the various clans, I assume they go back possibly millennium for some of the older, and possibly more important, clans.

Would there be title battles that PCs can become involved in?
Say to collect that lost document or seal that proves linkage in a chain of ownership?

Naturally there is the option of a Statute of Limitations but how was it handled that you know?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 19, 2015, 01:40:23 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;849785
That brings up the question of another type of adventure.
Since so many records are kept by the various clans, I assume they go back possibly millennium for some of the older, and possibly more important, clans.

Would there be title battles that PCs can become involved in?
Say to collect that lost document or seal that proves linkage in a chain of ownership?

Naturally there is the option of a Statute of Limitations but how was it handled that you know?
=


a. Yes, they do; so do the temples and some legions.

b. Yes, and yes. Verbal agreements are worth the parchment that they're written on.

c. There is no statue of limitations in the Five Empires, as far as I know. I quoted a precedent that was a thousand years old to Phil when Vrisa got arrested, and he had to admit that it was still valid. :)

(That was when he told me that 'Chirine, you've gone native.")
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 20, 2015, 12:44:49 AM
Hello All,

I have read about some of the exploits in the North and South of the Tsolyani Empire. Have you ever travelled to the other side of the globe? If not did the Professor ever hint at what might be found there? Hordes of Hokun and Black Suu...or worse?

Thanks in advance,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 20, 2015, 01:46:24 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;850052
Hello All,

I have read about some of the exploits in the North and South of the Tsolyani Empire. Have you ever travelled to the other side of the globe? If not did the Professor ever hint at what might be found there? Hordes of Hokun and Black Suu...or worse?

Thanks in advance,

H :0)


Yes. We live in what I call the 'first quadrant', the 'upper left hand' quadrant of the Tekumel globe. The original two EPT and the later four S&G maps cover this area, but the Tane lands to the east are not in these, and you have to add them in to get our entire continent.

The 'upper right-hand' quadrant was discussed in one of Carl Brodt's "Seal of the Imperium" magazines, where  he printed some maps made in the 1990s by the party that went 'up and over' the North Pole. The lower quadrants have not had any real mapping done, although there have been a few trips into them.

The 'upper right' is also home to what we called 'the purple and brown empire', a human state that was pretty much at the same level of development that we were. We did not get a lot of mapping done, as we went there by tubeway car; you don't get a feel for the landscape that way. Lord Fu Hsi, Baron Ald's ally, seems to be from that empire, which seems to want to aid Ald in his efforts.

Benre Sa, the primary island home of the nasty, nasty Hokun, is - we think - located in the 'lower right'; we've only been there by tubeway car. The seafaring Nom people live in the seas to the east of the maps in and around various island chairs. We are not sure where the palace of Bassa, king of the Black Ssu is; we got there and back through the sorcery of Thomar, one of the Undying Wizards, and never got a good feel for where we were 'on the map'.

So, yes, lots of hints and opportunities for adventure! Phil tried to leave a lot of things 'up in the air' so he could use them in future adventures. Sadly, he never did write a lot of it down... :(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 20, 2015, 08:39:05 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;850060
Lord Fu Hsi, Baron Ald's ally, seems to be from that empire, which seems to want to aid Ald in his efforts.


Are there others from "the far side" besides Lord Fu Hsi and the Pale Bone actively involved in the daily activities of the Empire?

Are things like zuur importation by the Hlyss or other nefarious plots, things that players might encounter?

Hlutrgu population explosions?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 20, 2015, 01:14:57 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;850096
Are there others from "the far side" besides Lord Fu Hsi and the Pale Bone actively involved in the daily activities of the Empire?

Are things like zuur importation by the Hlyss or other nefarious plots, things that players might encounter?

Hlutrgu population explosions?
=


a. Yes. We've caught a few, over the years, and I'm sure that there are more. One of the PCs in the late 1990s was a secret Pale Bone person.

b. Yes. PCs might be hired to investigate things like this, or 'deal with' these kinds of plots.

c. The nasty little critters are always having a population explosion; they breed like tadpoles, except with pointy sharp objects. They are always a problem, and there are continual 'hunting expeditions' down there to keep them down to a reasonable level. Some of these actually come back, too!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 21, 2015, 08:25:50 AM
When you played, how much did you have to worry about all the formal requirements of communication with NPCs?

Was florid speech commonly used in game?
If so, was it from the beginning or over years of play?

Any examples?

How much did you have to deal with labyrinthian bureaucracy in game and how did that work?
Was it also from the beginning?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 21, 2015, 10:57:53 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;850336
When you played, how much did you have to worry about all the formal requirements of communication with NPCs?

Was florid speech commonly used in game?
If so, was it from the beginning or over years of play?

Any examples?

How much did you have to deal with labyrinthian bureaucracy in game and how did that work?
Was it also from the beginning?
=


Thank you for more great questions!

a. We didn't. Yes, our PCs had their own voices - they tended to use a little bit more formal English when they were talking, but otherwise it was just normal dialog around the table. One always knew when was taking to Kathy, and when one was talking to Vrisa.

b. No, unless it was needed for comic or sarcastic effect. It was from the beginning, with everybody doing it.

c. No, not really; I can't think of any, off the top of my head. It didn't happen all that much, and really wasn't part of our game play.

d. Not really. The usual thing was to hand off the needed business to a scribe, and let the professional(s) do it. We were adventurers, and had other things to do; so, we just paid a fee, and let the scribe(s) handle things. That got started at the beginning, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 22, 2015, 12:02:56 PM
Chirine,

Could you please talk a bit about the secret societies of the different Temples? How much in actuality are people used by these groups to further the ends of that particular group? Is there a particular group more abhored than most? Which group is the most powerful? How does one know they are actually talking with/to a particular group? Or is it ever known?

Thanks,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 22, 2015, 02:23:27 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;850352

a. We didn't. Yes, our PCs had their own voices - they tended to use a little bit more formal English when they were talking, but otherwise it was just normal dialog around the table. One always knew when was taking to Kathy, and when one was talking to Vrisa.

b. No, unless it was needed for comic or sarcastic effect. It was from the beginning, with everybody doing it.

c. No, not really; I can't think of any, off the top of my head. It didn't happen all that much, and really wasn't part of our game play.


I wish there was a way to get this word to a wider audience.
I think that it is one of the most off putting aspects of playing in the setting and is being pushed at just about every site that features Tekumel.
While it may be "fun" for a small group of people, I think it stops a larger group from even trying.
Maybe that is the point? :(
A way to keep the riff-raff out?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 22, 2015, 03:30:58 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;850512
I wish there was a way to get this word to a wider audience.
I think that it is one of the most off putting aspects of playing in the setting and is being pushed at just about every site that features Tekumel.
While it may be "fun" for a small group of people, I think it stops a larger group from even trying.
Maybe that is the point? :(
A way to keep the riff-raff out?
=


Jargon is very useful, but it's also a very good way to erect a barrier to entry.  This applies to just about any venue that uses jargon.

In some 10 or so years of weekly playing in Tekumel, NOBODY, including Phil, ever spoke even a single word of Tsolyani.

Once again, the combination of Phil's own background as a linguistic scholar and the Villainous Influences of the "RP is a NARTFORM" crowd ended up in projecting a very untrue image.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: TheShadow on August 23, 2015, 05:02:42 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;850524

In some 10 or so years of weekly playing in Tekumel, NOBODY, including Phil, ever spoke even a single word of Tsolyani.




Except for proper nouns, I guess? Surely he'd at least say something like "your trip on the sakbe road is uneventful except for getting stuck behind some lumbering chlen..."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 23, 2015, 04:24:08 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;850498
Chirine,

Could you please talk a bit about the secret societies of the different Temples? How much in actuality are people used by these groups to further the ends of that particular group? Is there a particular group more abhored than most? Which group is the most powerful? How does one know they are actually talking with/to a particular group? Or is it ever known?

Thanks,

H :0)


No, they're secret. :)

Sorry; it's a very old joke! Anyway...

Each of the temples - and for all I know, any of the social entities in the Five Empires - have factions that seek to promote one or another agenda. Some are very public, and some try very hard to stay as covert as possible. Some have a lot of followers and power, and some do not.

I am a card-carrying, dues-paying, member-in-good-standing follower of the Incandescent Blaze Society of the Temple of Vimuhla; we are devoted to the restoration of the world-dominating theocracy of the Temple that existed under the Dragon Lords. We have members in all the Flame-worshipping clans, and also in all of the Legions devoted to Lord Vimuhla. We are A Power Upon The Land, as we'll me more then happy to explain to you - some of our more fanatic members are really boring at parties, I should warn you. We're out to expand our role in society and government, and to increase the power of the Temple. (And get a few nice perks along the way, if possible. It's good to be the High Priest, assuming that that Chirine guy doesn't kill you out of hand for dipping into the Temple's till...)

And like any properly organized secret society, we have our conventions, conferences, seminars, management retreats, annual meetings, reunions, hospitality suites, social events, team-building exercises, and out-and-out junkets to the better guesthouses. Occasionally, we'll throw a war or two to keep in practice, but that's all part of the fun.

I can hear you ask "But, how does that work in society?"

We take the very long view. It may take generations to reestablish our supremacy, but we'll get there - eventually. In the mean time, we have adventures, wars, expeditions, and such-like to keep us busy.

These sorts of societies are part of the fabric of political life, and are very common. None are looked down on, except by their opponents. It's usually a matter of pride that one is in a secret society, and there's a lot of name-dropping and wearing of the particular society's unique glyph. Generally, unless the member of the society is on the business of the group, and needs to be discreet, it's pretty obvious what they belong to, and the societies are usually pretty up-front with each other in their dealings.

For example, my First Concubine / second wife (a very nice and pleasant lady) is a priestess of the Temple of Ksarul, and a member of (I think; I really don't ask, 'cause it's supposed to be a secret) the Refulgent Blue Light Society. Our two secret societies are directly opposed to each other, but as in all things Tsolyani a certain practicality prevails; I do reports on her nefarious activities, and she does reports on mine. We each get a small stipend and our expenses for all this skullduggery and intrigue, which is nice as it helps with the costs of having a large family. We always make sure that each of our secret societies get something out of our adventures, too, as it keeps everybody happy.

More? Less? What else can I tell you? Phil covered this pretty extensively in the Sourcebook, as I recall...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 23, 2015, 04:37:20 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;850687
It's usually a matter of pride that one is in a secret society, and there's a lot of name-dropping and wearing of the particular society's unique glyph.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. :p
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 23, 2015, 04:37:47 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;850512
I wish there was a way to get this word to a wider audience.
I think that it is one of the most off putting aspects of playing in the setting and is being pushed at just about every site that features Tekumel.
While it may be "fun" for a small group of people, I think it stops a larger group from even trying.
Maybe that is the point? :(
A way to keep the riff-raff out?
=


Well, I do agree with you.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of elitism going on with Tekumel, and a lot of posturing and positioning going on to try and convince other people that The True Fans are a chosen band of highly intellectual and artistically superior gamers who are head and shoulders above the hoi polloi and peasants who play such 'common' games as D&D and Pathfinder.

I am a populist, not an elitist, and I've been getting crap from these people for years. My book, for example, is regarded as A Bad Thing, because I am aiming it at people like you, and not writing it for people like them.

Yes, they do put people off playing Tekumel; if I had a dollar for every gamer who has told me that "I wish I'd met you before I found Tekumel fandom!" or "You make Tekumel sound fun!" over the past thirty-five years, I'd have been able to retire to a life of luxury and ease twenty years ago.

I can remember, with incredulity, the announcements that there would be language seminars at conventions so people could learn 'proper' Tsolyani, and how this was vitally important for people as they could not even think about playing the setting until they had been 'properly indoctrinated' with The One True Way; this attitude what has made Tekumel the huge commercial success that it has been for decades.

Yes, it does kill interest in the setting. Ask The Pundit; he's got an interesting take on this.

The only way that this will ever change is for people like you to go out and play in the setting, and have fun doing it. And tell your friends about it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 23, 2015, 04:40:49 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;850524
Jargon is very useful, but it's also a very good way to erect a barrier to entry.  This applies to just about any venue that uses jargon.

In some 10 or so years of weekly playing in Tekumel, NOBODY, including Phil, ever spoke even a single word of Tsolyani.

Once again, the combination of Phil's own background as a linguistic scholar and the Villainous Influences of the "RP is a NARTFORM" crowd ended up in projecting a very untrue image.


Heretic dog!!! How dare you question The One True Way??? You shall burn in hell for this for all eternity!!! :)

And you're right, of course... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 23, 2015, 04:42:51 PM
Quote from: The_Shadow;850597
Except for proper nouns, I guess? Surely he'd at least say something like "your trip on the sakbe road is uneventful except for getting stuck behind some lumbering chlen..."


No language, just vocabulary, like all the Urdu, Hindi, Pashtun, Farsi, and Arabic curses we learned the night Phil accidently set his chest hair on fire at the game table.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 23, 2015, 04:44:46 PM
Quote from: Bren;850693
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. :p


Ssshh! It's a secret.

And I might note that all the secret police in the Five Empires have the fanciest and most elaborate uniforms, too...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 23, 2015, 04:46:19 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;850694
I can remember, with incredulity, the announcements that there would be language seminars at conventions so people could learn 'proper' Tsolyani, and how this was vitally important for people...
This reminds me of a Friends of Darkover meeting that a buddy of mine dragged me to back in the early eighties. Those folks would have loved language seminars. They all had Darkover names and came across to me as a very odd bunch. Which, considering I'd been playing RPGs for maybe a decade, and had been to Sci-Fi cons and SCA events is kind of saying something. Not as weird as the Amway meeting I got suckered into later though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 23, 2015, 04:47:32 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;850699
Ssshh! It's a secret.

And I might note that all the secret police in the Five Empires have the fanciest and most elaborate uniforms, too...

Makes arresting people once you've caught them much easier since you are obviously official. Might make catching them harder....kind of a win/win I'd say.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 23, 2015, 08:42:34 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;850698
No language, just vocabulary, like all the Urdu, Hindi, Pashtun, Farsi, and Arabic curses we learned the night Phil accidently set his chest hair on fire at the game table.


The coal dropped off his nasty little cigar into his amazingly lush, if grey, chest hairs, and a good time was had by all except him.

He was an excellent scholar and very learned, but dressed like a homeless person at his game table.  Rattiest damn T shirt I ever saw.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 23, 2015, 09:25:37 PM
Quote from: Bren;850700
This reminds me of a Friends of Darkover meeting that a buddy of mine dragged me to back in the early eighties. Those folks would have loved language seminars. They all had Darkover names and came across to me as a very odd bunch. Which, considering I'd been playing RPGs for maybe a decade, and had been to Sci-Fi cons and SCA events is kind of saying something. Not as weird as the Amway meeting I got suckered into later though.


Yep. Been there, done that, ran like hell.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 23, 2015, 09:26:53 PM
Quote from: Bren;850701
Makes arresting people once you've caught them much easier since you are obviously official. Might make catching them harder....kind of a win/win I'd say.


Yeah, I'd agree about that! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 23, 2015, 09:46:34 PM
Experience points...
From your descriptions of game play you often talked your way out of situations.
How was experience points determined then?
The printed rule specify looting and killing. Even so much as "the killing blow".
Was experience based on "value of service rendered" more often then just killing and looting?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 23, 2015, 09:53:47 PM
Hirilakte arena...
Is this the Tsolyani version of Sunday Night Football?
Is it every day?
Are there crowds?
How popular is it to watch or fight in?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 23, 2015, 11:02:52 PM
The arena is quite popular.  Pretty much like Rome.

Until I was high enough level to leave the foreigners' quarter I fought a lot there.  It was a good way to make some quick money, especially by betting on other PCs.  After I won too many fights the odds were too poor to make any money on bets.  That's about when I joined the Army.  If I'm going to have people trying to kill me, I might as well do it with stout comrades on either side.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 23, 2015, 11:07:52 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;850811
Experience points...
From your descriptions of game play you often talked your way out of situations.
How was experience points determined then?
The printed rule specify looting and killing. Even so much as "the killing blow".
Was experience based on "value of service rendered" more often then just killing and looting?


I don't know. We never really counted experience points in my time with Phil. We just got on with the job and got it done, and we'd get promotions and stuff like that.

Sorry. We just didn't play that way.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 23, 2015, 11:10:05 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;850811
Experience points...
From your descriptions of game play you often talked your way out of situations.
How was experience points determined then?
The printed rule specify looting and killing. Even so much as "the killing blow".
Was experience based on "value of service rendered" more often then just killing and looting?


In the early phase, "you are a barbarian outcast who lives in a ghetto and robs tombs for ornaments to sell to collectors," pretty strictly.

By the time our command of the language was good enough to talk our way out of anything, experience points were in the "not applicable" column.  I think Phil stopped worrying about it around the second Qadarni duel with my first cohort as Kasi.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 23, 2015, 11:11:42 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;850814
Hirilakte arena...
Is this the Tsolyani version of Sunday Night Football?
Is it every day?
Are there crowds?
How popular is it to watch or fight in?
=


Yep. Hugely popular. You get everything from 'guest fighting teams' to comedy acts in between bouts by the fighters. A special treat was a duel between sorcerers, which is where Phil's neat little board game "War of Wizards" comes from.

You make your money on seat cushions and food and beverage, and running the betting windows.

And like the man says, it's a good way for low-level people to make money and get a reputation.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 23, 2015, 11:25:01 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;850841
Yep. Hugely popular. You get everything from 'guest fighting teams' to comedy acts in between bouts by the fighters. A special treat was a duel between sorcerers, which is where Phil's neat little board game "War of Wizards" comes from.
Did that game include wizards putting up walls of stone or moving walls to crush each other?

Just used Google to find it. I had totally forgotten that game. My buddy the game collector had a copy. We played it a few times. Wow I had totally forgotten that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 23, 2015, 11:31:29 PM
Quote from: Bren;850844
Did that game include wizards putting up walls of stone or moving walls to crush each other?

Just used Google to find it. I had totally forgotten that game. My buddy the game collector had a copy. We played it a few times. Wow I had totally forgotten that.


Yes, I think so. It has all sorts of very powerful and very visually impressive spells in the game, and it is the foundation stone of all the later magic systems in the various RPG rules sets. Spells move toward the opponent, and they get to cast counter spells to try and stop the attacks. It gets tense pretty quickly, and you have to be alert and decisive; otherwise, you get dead and the betting is wonderful.

I built a miniatures set for this game, with sorcerers and spell effects all done up in 25mm. Nobody's interested in playing it, though - the game is "too old fashioned" for people, I've been told. Might want to do it with suitable action figures and LED lights and stuff on a really big board...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 23, 2015, 11:32:20 PM
One thing that might help is to re-approach the questions from a different direction.  A lot of life on Tekumel pivots around the question "Do you look like you belong here?"

For instance, if Moxie and Pepsi hi Dingleberry of the Clan of Odiferous Sewer Scrapers go to the workshop of the Clan of Pooper Scooper Artificiers and pick up a dozen Super Duper Pooper Scoopers, nobody will bat an eye.  Moxie doesn't even need a "chit;" he just signs the journal book, which at the end of the month is sent to the clan house.  If it's a proper purchase nobody will bat an eye.

If a young nobleman and a couple of friends show up, dressed well from a high clan, the Pooper Scooper shopkeeper will get worried; these young blades are out to raise a little hell, and the low status clan will have little they can do.  Claims for shamtla will be met by a pittance; broken shovels and broken noses among the lowly are of little concern to the high clan lords.

If I show up at the shovel shop dressed in full Imperial General garb complete with helmet, breastplate, greaves, hemi-demi-semi informal early late midafternoon hip cloak, battle spats, and jeweled eye-shields,* the shopkeeper is going to think I'm lost and courteously attempt to give me directions back to the military district.

In general, if I have legion business, I'll be dressed in my legion armor; if I'm on clan business I may well wear civilian clothes with my clan emblem, or possibly light parade armor if the clan business involves anything to do with my legion, but I will have clan emblems visible; if I'm visiting the temple of Karakan I'll wear my armor but with the epaulets engraved with symbols of Karakan and my forearms bare to show my ceremonial scars.  Et cetera.

Think of it in terms of "Does this person look like they belong here."  Tsolyani society is very much about "fitting in."  That which looks out of place will be viewed with suspicion, whether a ragged, filthy bumpkin in one of the rich parts of town, or a person of obvious wealth and power wandering the streets of the Foreigners' Quarter.

*10 XP to the first person (besides Chirine) who identifies the reference without looking it up.

Also, one BIG difference between EPT and D&D is that in D&D, "dungeon adventurers" are bold, daring types who dare great danger to go after legendary riches... "King Solomon's Mines" sort of thing.  In EPT, at least in the "Underworld" in settled areas like Jakalla's "City of the Dead," you're a bloody body snatcher robbing tombs for trinkets to sell.  Rather like the people who did, and regrettably sometimes still do, plunder tombs and pyramids in Egypt.  And whereas in D&D a dungeon explorer is considered "successful" due to their wealth, in Jakalla you are considered a criminal, if anybody knows.

Of course Tekumel has plenty of forgotten places too; finding a cache of gold... or iron bars... in some ancient, long forgotten, and, most importantly, not entered into the Imperial land office place is considered suitably bold and adventurous.  The Chakas seem to be full of that sort of stuff, and it's not a bad place for the young and bold to get some experience and some wealth, provided you don't get dead instead.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 23, 2015, 11:36:01 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;850846
Yes, I think so. It has all sorts of very powerful and very visually impressive spells in the game, and it is the foundation stone of all the later magic systems in the various RPG rules sets. Spells move toward the opponent, and they get to cast counter spells to try and stop the attacks. It gets tense pretty quickly, and you have to be alert and decisive; otherwise, you get dead and the betting is wonderful.

I built a miniatures set for this game, with sorcerers and spell effects all done up in 25mm. Nobody's interested in playing it, though - the game is "too old fashioned" for people, I've been told. Might want to do it with suitable action figures and LED lights and stuff on a really big board...


Sigh.

Of course, I must confess that I wasn't all that interested... not because the game was "old fashioned," but I've never been that big on magic.  44 years of this hobby, and I could count my magic using characters on one hand.

Well, as Phil used to say, "That's what makes horse races."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 23, 2015, 11:43:07 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;850847

If I show up at the shovel shop dressed in full Imperial General garb complete with helmet, breastplate, greaves, hemi-demi-semi informal early late midafternoon hip cloak, battle spats, and jeweled eye-shields,* the shopkeeper is going to think I'm lost and courteously attempt to give me directions back to the military district.


The hell he will, Glorious General; you know better then that. (and yes, I understand you're making a point, which I do agree with, but...)

The shopkeeper will smirk politely and sell you his very best (and most expensive) Mk. 26 Imperial Shit-shovel, one each, Imperial Generals, for the use of, and ask politely which front of the fighting you off to. And I'll be right behind you, buying the Mk. 14 Imperial Shit-shovel, one each, Military Sorcerors, for the use of as we're off on yet another nasty little 'odd job' for the Imperium.

Seriously, though, very good point; we just do things a little differently in these parts, speaking s a Chakan... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 23, 2015, 11:44:38 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;850848
Sigh.

Of course, I must confess that I wasn't all that interested... not because the game was "old fashioned," but I've never been that big on magic.  44 years of this hobby, and I could count my magic using characters on one hand.

Well, as Phil used to say, "That's what makes horse races."


Yep. This is one of those nights where I am pretty sure that my kind of gaming is one with the trilobites...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 24, 2015, 12:10:08 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;850849
The hell he will, Glorious General; you know better then that. (and yes, I understand you're making a point, which I do agree with, but...)

The shopkeeper will smirk politely and sell you his very best (and most expensive) Mk. 26 Imperial Shit-shovel, one each, Imperial Generals, for the use of, and ask politely which front of the fighting you off to. And I'll be right behind you, buying the Mk. 14 Imperial Shit-shovel, one each, Military Sorcerors, for the use of as we're off on yet another nasty little 'odd job' for the Imperium.

Seriously, though, very good point; we just do things a little differently in these parts, speaking s a Chakan... :)


Well, I was working under the assumption that we were bright enough not to be buying our own camp equipment.  I assume all those forms you have me sign must be good for SOMETHING.

Of course if we've just been spooted out yet ANOTHER nexus point with nothing but our ragged kilts, all bets are off.  Then the hard part will be finding somebody who will believe our identities, or be able to at least partly verify them.  (Well, the shorter one is definitely a member of Incandescent Blaze and the taller one is obviously a Karakan worshipper, so that much of their story is true.  Check and see if we have any outstanding warrants we can doctor to fit these two while I stall for time.)  Once again, "where do you look like you belong?"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 24, 2015, 12:14:04 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;850846
Yes, I think so. It has all sorts of very powerful and very visually impressive spells in the game...
That was it. I remember the moving spells. Stuff like walls of fire or stone rolling or sliding towards you. The concept was cool, can't honestly recall what I thought of the execution though. IIR Microgames seemed to be the fad around then. I recall playing a lot of Steve Jackson's OGRE game.

Wow, amazing the things you think your forgot that you haven't quite...

Quote
I built a miniatures set for this game, with sorcerers and spell effects all done up in 25mm. Nobody's interested in playing it, though - the game is "too old fashioned" for people, I've been told. Might want to do it with suitable action figures and LED lights and stuff on a really big board...
I'm thinking that would make an interesting background activity with some sort of intrigue - betting shenanigans, passing important secrets, or maybe an assassination designed to look like an accidental failure of the protection for the spectators. I seem to vaguely recall there was supposed to be some kind of protection for spectators...though I may have just imagined that in as a logical requirement.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;850847
A lot of life on Tekumel pivots around the question "Do you look like you belong here?"
That is a point I find I have to reinforce in some of my games. A lot of players/people just don't easily or naturally think about attire and demeanor in that way. No doubt this is abetted by the move to much more casual business and leisure attire world wide. And the US is definitely way out front on this one.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 24, 2015, 12:32:50 AM
Quote from: Bren;850852

That is a point I find I have to reinforce in some of my games. A lot of players/people just don't easily or naturally think about attire and demeanor in that way. No doubt this is abetted by the move to much more casual business and leisure attire world wide. And the US is definitely way out front on this one.


We went to France in 2007.  I vividly remember waiting to board the plane to Paris.  The French passengers all were dressed very well, and the American passengers looked like a Kmart exploded.  "Clothes that fit" in the US seems to have come to mean "there is no such thing as too loose."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 24, 2015, 01:29:18 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;850847
One thing that might help is to re-approach the questions from a different direction.  A lot of life on Tekumel pivots around the question "Do you look like you belong here?"

For instance, if Moxie and Pepsi hi Dingleberry of the Clan of Odiferous Sewer Scrapers go to the workshop of the Clan of Pooper Scooper Artificiers and pick up a dozen Super Duper Pooper Scoopers, nobody will bat an eye.  Moxie doesn't even need a "chit;" he just signs the journal book, which at the end of the month is sent to the clan house.  If it's a proper purchase nobody will bat an eye.

If a young nobleman and a couple of friends show up, dressed well from a high clan, the Pooper Scooper shopkeeper will get worried; these young blades are out to raise a little hell, and the low status clan will have little they can do.  Claims for shamtla will be met by a pittance; broken shovels and broken noses among the lowly are of little concern to the high clan lords.

If I show up at the shovel shop dressed in full Imperial General garb complete with helmet, breastplate, greaves, hemi-demi-semi informal early late midafternoon hip cloak, battle spats, and jeweled eye-shields,* the shopkeeper is going to think I'm lost and courteously attempt to give me directions back to the military district.

In general, if I have legion business, I'll be dressed in my legion armor; if I'm on clan business I may well wear civilian clothes with my clan emblem, or possibly light parade armor if the clan business involves anything to do with my legion, but I will have clan emblems visible; if I'm visiting the temple of Karakan I'll wear my armor but with the epaulets engraved with symbols of Karakan and my forearms bare to show my ceremonial scars.  Et cetera.

Think of it in terms of "Does this person look like they belong here."  Tsolyani society is very much about "fitting in."  That which looks out of place will be viewed with suspicion, whether a ragged, filthy bumpkin in one of the rich parts of town, or a person of obvious wealth and power wandering the streets of the Foreigners' Quarter.

*10 XP to the first person (besides Chirine) who identifies the reference without looking it up.

Also, one BIG difference between EPT and D&D is that in D&D, "dungeon adventurers" are bold, daring types who dare great danger to go after legendary riches... "King Solomon's Mines" sort of thing.  In EPT, at least in the "Underworld" in settled areas like Jakalla's "City of the Dead," you're a bloody body snatcher robbing tombs for trinkets to sell.  Rather like the people who did, and regrettably sometimes still do, plunder tombs and pyramids in Egypt.  And whereas in D&D a dungeon explorer is considered "successful" due to their wealth, in Jakalla you are considered a criminal, if anybody knows.

Of course Tekumel has plenty of forgotten places too; finding a cache of gold... or iron bars... in some ancient, long forgotten, and, most importantly, not entered into the Imperial land office place is considered suitably bold and adventurous.  The Chakas seem to be full of that sort of stuff, and it's not a bad place for the young and bold to get some experience and some wealth, provided you don't get dead instead.


Gronan,

Very "Clever" maybe...John Holbrook...???

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 24, 2015, 02:03:54 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;850851
Well, I was working under the assumption that we were bright enough not to be buying our own camp equipment.  I assume all those forms you have me sign must be good for SOMETHING.

Of course if we've just been spooted out yet ANOTHER nexus point with nothing but our ragged kilts, all bets are off.  Then the hard part will be finding somebody who will believe our identities, or be able to at least partly verify them.  (Well, the shorter one is definitely a member of Incandescent Blaze and the taller one is obviously a Karakan worshipper, so that much of their story is true.  Check and see if we have any outstanding warrants we can doctor to fit these two while I stall for time.)  Once again, "where do you look like you belong?"


Kilts? We got kilts

Normally, we'd be lucky to have our skins intact, after one of Phil's little jaunts through the Planes Beyond.

Seriously, though, you do have a very good point about 'looking like you fit in'.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 24, 2015, 02:05:45 AM
Quote from: Bren;850852
That was it. I remember the moving spells. Stuff like walls of fire or stone rolling or sliding towards you. The concept was cool, can't honestly recall what I thought of the execution though. IIR Microgames seemed to be the fad around then. I recall playing a lot of Steve Jackson's OGRE game.

Wow, amazing the things you think your forgot that you haven't quite...

I'm thinking that would make an interesting background activity with some sort of intrigue - betting shenanigans, passing important secrets, or maybe an assassination designed to look like an accidental failure of the protection for the spectators. I seem to vaguely recall there was supposed to be some kind of protection for spectators...though I may have just imagined that in as a logical requirement.

That is a point I find I have to reinforce in some of my games. A lot of players/people just don't easily or naturally think about attire and demeanor in that way. No doubt this is abetted by the move to much more casual business and leisure attire world wide. And the US is definitely way out front on this one.


Yes, there are wards to keep the punters from getting killed; these are provided by the arena staff.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 24, 2015, 02:08:13 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;850854
We went to France in 2007.  I vividly remember waiting to board the plane to Paris.  The French passengers all were dressed very well, and the American passengers looked like a Kmart exploded.  "Clothes that fit" in the US seems to have come to mean "there is no such thing as too loose."


Same here, going to the UK. Everybody thought the Missus and I were Germans, half the time, and Russians the other half. Which I thought was funny, actually.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Chgowiz on August 24, 2015, 02:31:19 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;850694

The only way that this will ever change is for people like you to go out and play in the setting, and have fun doing it. And tell your friends about it.


If you show someone fun at a game, they'll remember it and come back.

That's what you need to do as well... don't get caught up in anyone else's game but your own.

A powerful lesson I learned over the past four years of being involved in cliques and niches of niches is that if I choose to not play "The Game", if I make deliberate choices to avoid the drama, tada, I avoid the drama and I can still get my message across. I did.

That's why I don't get involved in the "OSR" dramas and critiques and what-not. I play my elf-games, I paint and use my funny little figures and I talk about it. If someone gets upset that I don't ascribe to their "ONE TWUE WAY" of things, well... as my more coarse friends would say "fuck 'em".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 24, 2015, 07:40:02 PM
I remember from reading The Outlaws of the Marsh (http://noblebandits.asu.edu/Text/OutlawsMarsh.html) that it was common for the leaders to have a personal battle.
That the results of this seriously effected moral and could determine the side that won.

From EPT I get the impression that this is also the case.
Has The Glorious General personally beating the opponents commander effectively won the field?

Was this a common method for quickly resolving large battles?

Goes this scale?
Is any confrontation able to be bargained such that the leaders win or loss is accepted by their followers as resolving the conflict?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 24, 2015, 09:50:22 PM
I have 6000 troops at my back, I'm not going to dick around with a one on one duel with the enemy general.

In the "Qadarli," the "little wars," which were more like duels, taking the enemy command unit is a good idea.

But the idea that armies ever abided by the result of a "duel of commanders" anytime anywhere is frankly nugatory.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 25, 2015, 01:52:00 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;851031
I have 6000 troops at my back, I'm not going to dick around with a one on one duel with the enemy general.
Monsieur, we have a word here in the France King Louis the Just for a gentleman who feels like that...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 25, 2015, 08:31:14 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;851031
But the idea that armies ever abided by the result of a "duel of commanders" anytime anywhere is frankly nugatory.


It doesn't seem so far fetched when the people on the other side are possibly cousins.

Also, I suspect that the average troop would be fine with the leaders fighting it out between them.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 25, 2015, 02:29:27 PM
Quote from: Chgowiz;850992
If you show someone fun at a game, they'll remember it and come back.

That's what you need to do as well... don't get caught up in anyone else's game but your own.

A powerful lesson I learned over the past four years of being involved in cliques and niches of niches is that if I choose to not play "The Game", if I make deliberate choices to avoid the drama, tada, I avoid the drama and I can still get my message across. I did.

That's why I don't get involved in the "OSR" dramas and critiques and what-not. I play my elf-games, I paint and use my funny little figures and I talk about it. If someone gets upset that I don't ascribe to their "ONE TWUE WAY" of things, well... as my more coarse friends would say "fuck 'em".


I'd agree with this. I've seen quite a lot of drama go by in both the industry and the hobby over the years, and it never does any good - it does engender some very deep divisions and bad feelings, and it's had a very negative effect over the decades.

I agree with you; I like to play with my little toy soldiers, and sit around a table telling stories with my friends. Sometimes we'll roll some dice, but mostly we're just into having a good time with friends. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 25, 2015, 02:46:32 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;851015
I remember from reading The Outlaws of the Marsh (http://noblebandits.asu.edu/Text/OutlawsMarsh.html) that it was common for the leaders to have a personal battle.
That the results of this seriously effected moral and could determine the side that won.

From EPT I get the impression that this is also the case.
Has The Glorious General personally beating the opponents commander effectively won the field?

Was this a common method for quickly resolving large battles?

Goes this scale?
Is any confrontation able to be bargained such that the leaders win or loss is accepted by their followers as resolving the conflict?
=


Bear with me; this will be a little involved. There are three 'levels' of conflict, based on intensity and complication.

Starting with the biggest, we have the 'Qadardali", 'The Great War'. This is fought among nation-states, usually against each other, but also against the hostile non-humans and 'uncivilized peoples'. This level is characterized by large armies going on campaign, and usually in large numbers of troops.

Large-scale battles, as were described by the Professor in a couple of articles, usually start with 'champion duels', where individuals step out and fight their opposites for the honor of their legion. These do not 'settle' the outcome of the battle, but they do affect morale - a string of losses can depress an army, and sap it's will to fight. In the various sets of miniatures rules for Tekumel - my own included - these are handled in the game with a series of dice rolls and a consequent adjustment to the morale factors; in my own rules, there is also an option to use one's preferred RPG rules to run the fight, which allows for more participation by PCs in the action.

In the "Qadarni", the 'Little Wars', you do see a lot more champion duels - including some by senior officers - as these are fights for honor and reputation. These have about a single cohort of soldiers on each side, about 400 to 500 each, and are very formalized and ritualistic. See also the Meso-American 'Flower Wars' for more about these. These fights are very suited for RPG play, and as incidents in RPG campaigns.

Finally, we have the 'private' fights, where individuals or clans have a conflict they they just can't resolve any other way. In these cases, which are pretty rare, the opposing sides will adjourn to the local arena, where their champions and possibly small 'teams' will fight it out to settle the issue once and for all. The results are binding on both parties, and this is very strictly enforced by the Imperium. Going 'out in back of the barn' is forbidden in urban areas, but I have heard of one or two incidents where opponents had thinly-disguised 'country parties' out in the sticks where they would not be disturbed while they fought it out; this is considered very 'low-class' and 'common', as anyone with any pretensions of nobility and honor would do their fighting in the arena.

These are really suited to RPGs, I think.

Riots are Right Out, and the Imperium gets really cranky about those and the people who start them.

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 25, 2015, 05:04:25 PM
Years of chasing and being chased through the deserts of Milumanaya tends to blunt one's taste for ritual, doesn't it?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 25, 2015, 07:17:07 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;851133

Does this help?

Very much.

Another aspect that is common but not covered is the details of dress.
This seems to be a signature of many Asian/Middle Eastern stories.
The leaders/heroes in The Outlaws of the Marsh had what they were wearing described in detail.

Was this done in your games? If so how?

There is very little detail on the available in setting materials/fabrics and how they are ranked.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 25, 2015, 08:56:20 PM
We usually said "I will dress appropriately for the occasion."  I hired a valet at 6th level when I became a citizen to help with this.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 26, 2015, 02:34:01 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;851157
Years of chasing and being chased through the deserts of Milumanaya tends to blunt one's taste for ritual, doesn't it?


Yep. That campaign sucked, big time.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 26, 2015, 02:54:15 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;851179
Very much.

Another aspect that is common but not covered is the details of dress.
This seems to be a signature of many Asian/Middle Eastern stories.
The leaders/heroes in The Outlaws of the Marsh had what they were wearing described in detail.

Was this done in your games? If so how?

There is very little detail on the available in setting materials/fabrics and how they are ranked.
=


Generally, Phil didn't stop play to describe what people were wearing unless it was important to the action. We all had our index cards, and we'd noted what we usually were wearing, depending on the situation. About the only time we discussed what people were wearing was when we needed to figure out who they were, and if they were a threat.

Now, having said that, I need to note that we usually had several very gifted artists at the game table; while they played, they'd draw what they saw, send it down the table to Phil, and he'd make corrections as needed. Of, in some cases, he'd whip off a quick sketch to show us what somebody or something looked like, and usually one of the artists would do a polished version. Please keep in mind that while we were playing with Phil, we were also producing and publishing most of the Tekumel products of the 1980s, like the 'zines and books.

I saved all of the drawings; the rule at the game table was that Phil would get the original for his files, and I would get a copy for my archives. I have well over 1,200 drawings on file, covering just about everything you could imagine. Tekumel, at least as how Phil saw it, is one of the most richly illustrated world-settings ever created.

The reason why this sort of thing is not well covered in the literature is that it is long out of print; I did a book on the subject, using Phil's notes and all of the available artwork. As we were doing the miniatures line at the time, this was based on the work that Phil had done for that; I have all of his concept drawings, as well as those by Dave Sutherland and Craig Smith, and also those by later artists like Chris Huddle, Kathy Marshall, and Ken Fletcher.

And there also feels like a sort of 'prejudice' against costuming by some 'serious gamers'. We did a lot of costumes for Tekumel in our day, as was noted in the  thread on "Amusing Tekumel Images", but we did them simply for the fun of it. Miniatures often come in for the same, for that matter, which I think is a reaction to D&D's Fourth Edition.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 26, 2015, 03:01:51 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;851187
We usually said "I will dress appropriately for the occasion."  I hired a valet at 6th level when I became a citizen to help with this.


Yeah, that was pretty much how we handled in in-game. The valet / servant / majordomo handled all the complexities of the subject, so we could get on with the adventure.

Of course, more then once the servants sparked a whole new adventure:

"Your pardon, Noble Sir, but there's a Hlyss behind you. Would Your Lordship prefer one's mace or one's sword?"

Or:

WHANG! "My husband, this rude and uncivilized person was creeping up behind you and your friends with the intention of cutting your throats; I have taken what I hope will not be considered a liberty, and rendered him harmless with my favorite skillet."

And so on... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 26, 2015, 08:00:26 PM
This whole Good/Stability -vs- Evil/Change thing.
Was this a transition or was it Stability -vs- Change from the beginning.
It certainly doesn't seem so antagonistic as straight up Good -vs- Evil.

How does this work with clans? I assume that a clan will follow the faith that bolsters it livelihood but what about those that feel a different calling?

Is the clan 90/10, 80/20, 70/30, 60/40 or 50/50 for the "main" deity?

Besides the play group that favored disruptive play, did the players deity selection make any real differences?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 26, 2015, 08:11:46 PM
Well, take a bunch of horny 19 year olds of both sexes and give them the option of a sex goddess and guess what happens.

Few of us stayed with Dlamelish, however.  By about five years into the campaign your temple was just another facet of life in the Empire.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 27, 2015, 02:28:36 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;851381
This whole Good/Stability -vs- Evil/Change thing.
Was this a transition or was it Stability -vs- Change from the beginning.
It certainly doesn't seem so antagonistic as straight up Good -vs- Evil.

How does this work with clans? I assume that a clan will follow the faith that bolsters it livelihood but what about those that feel a different calling?

Is the clan 90/10, 80/20, 70/30, 60/40 or 50/50 for the "main" deity?

Besides the play group that favored disruptive play, did the players deity selection make any real differences?
=


Oh, let's open this can of worms, shall we? :)

Prof. M. A.R. Barker was 'Stability/Change' from around 1948 to 2012. He liked the dichotomy, and didn't see that there was an issue with it. We played it that way at his games; in his view of his creation, it wasn't a major issue in the life of the people who lived in his world.

Mr. E. Gary Gygax and Mr. David L. Arneson were 'Good vs. Evil' from about 1972-73 to well into the 2000's.

Mr. Gygax and Mr. Arneson persuaded Prof. Barker to drop the 'shades of grey' approach that 'Stability / Change' embraced, and so the published edition of what became EPT had this removed and the black and white 'Good vs. Evil' inserted in to the blanks. This was largely due to their firm belief that gamers didn't have the cultural sophistication or the native intelligence to deal with anything more complicated then a black-and-white dichotomy.

So, EPT got changed in the summer of 1974, and there you are. As Phil once said: "Well, he was paying for it." and shrugged his shoulders. Just to add to the fun, Phil once remarked that by Dave and Gary's standards, all of Tekumel's religions are EEEEEEEEvil in comparison to the various (and Phil's opinion, rather vague and undefined) religions in D&D; Gary and Dave had to admit the point, to their discomfort.

(Later on, at a Gen Con, I was discussing this subject with some D&D players, who were HORRIFIED to discover that I am, under the D&D rules, a Tenth Level Evil High Priest. They were quite hostile, and then Gary noted that by the standards of my faith, I am a Paladin. That ended that discussion; it may have influenced later publications, though.)

And no, it's not antagonistic. It's a philosophical stance, and people just don't get all that bent out of shape about it.

(And I do apologize if I sound cranky about this; I had a front row seat for the aftermath of this editorial decision back in the late 1970s.)

Moving on to more pleasant climes:

Clans are pretty open-minded about the individual clansperson's faith. As long as the person supports the clan, pays their taxes to the Imperium, and doesn't cause trouble there isn't a lot of agony over it. Yes, clans to tend to favor one or a couple of faiths, but that's mostly a matter of custom and tradition in the clan, going back literally thousands of years. My clan, Eye of Flame, has been a mostly Vimuhla clan going back to the time of the Dragon Lords; White Stone, on the other had, is very eclectic, and has members who are of all twenty Temples.

If I had become a Hnalla worshipper, there would have been a lot of hand-wringing amongst the relatives and some pointed comments about how I had been raised. That would have been the end of it, especially if I brought luster, fame, honor, and goodies back to the clan...

Trying to assign a percentage to this next to impossible; it just isn't the way Phil did it in his campaign. The best advice that I can offer is to look at the clan name, or the descriptions in S&G I (The Sourcebook), and take it from there based on the needs of your campaign.

No, it didn't, and it didn't in the other group either. They just liked to piss on each other - they were all mostly Vimuhla or Chiteng people, actually. We have very, very few Stability people out at Phil's over the years; nobody really seemed all that interested in the Stability temples.

We really didn't worry too much about The Great Philosophical Issues in Phil's games; we just worked together to try and stay alive. Our individual deity choices made a difference in what we could do in the game - especially in S&G - and how we dressed. Political parties made as much of a difference as 'alignment' or 'religion'.

Sorry to be so long-winded! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 27, 2015, 02:33:16 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;851382
Well, take a bunch of horny 19 year olds of both sexes and give them the option of a sex goddess and guess what happens.

Few of us stayed with Dlamelish, however.  By about five years into the campaign your temple was just another facet of life in the Empire.


And there weren't that many Dlamelish or Hrihayal players in the first place. Everybody was pretty much Ksarul, Vimuhla, or Hry'y, (and their Cohorts) except for the one Sarku player.

Nope, you're right; after a while, we just made our contributions and got on with life.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 27, 2015, 08:38:47 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;851449
Sorry to be so long-winded! :)

Long winded? Almost seemed short as I'm sure there are many examples you can give where it mattered. ;)

Thanks for confirming how it was done at the beginning (and can be done again).
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 27, 2015, 11:27:32 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;851503
Long winded? Almost seemed short as I'm sure there are many examples you can give where it mattered. ;)

Thanks for confirming how it was done at the beginning (and can be done again).
=


You're welcome! In the usual course of things, one's Temple and alignment just wasn't that big a deal. Everybody usually tried to work together to make things work, and that was kinda that. Now, in the Underworlds, it did make a difference as everyone had different goals and objectives; what we did in the party was try and make sure that we all got something out of the action, so we could go back to our clans, temples, legions, etc. with a little something. It took some doing, but we managed.

It's the difference between short-term, immediate goals and long term ones, I think.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 28, 2015, 08:34:04 AM
How "adventurous" is travel for beginning players?
You had mentioned "greasing" the palms of the road guards.
Are there road guards on all roads or just the Sakbe?

From your experience, is the main danger in the countryside starving villagers and bandits?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 28, 2015, 01:44:15 PM
Speaking of countryside,
Would carving out areas that are bordered by Tekumel's native vegetation as "wild zones" fit your experience?

Was this something you dealt with?

Areas that all manner of opponents can sally forth from.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 28, 2015, 06:18:04 PM
Chirine,

I know you mentioned that one of your clan wives was from a different temple than yourself. That you both kept an eye on each other...

Can you please talk a bit about how an individual's loyalities would go on Tekumel in general? Wife, Clan, Temple, Empire...Empire, Temple, Clan, Wife, etc.

Thanks,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 28, 2015, 07:32:04 PM
It depends.  Chorine worships Vimuhla, my character worships Karakan.  We both loyally serve the Empire in the same legion.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on August 28, 2015, 10:07:58 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;850694
Well, I do agree with you.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of elitism going on with Tekumel, and a lot of posturing and positioning going on to try and convince other people that The True Fans are a chosen band of highly intellectual and artistically superior gamers who are head and shoulders above the hoi polloi and peasants who play such 'common' games as D&D and Pathfinder.

I am a populist, not an elitist, and I've been getting crap from these people for years. My book, for example, is regarded as A Bad Thing, because I am aiming it at people like you, and not writing it for people like them.

And I'm the guy neither elitists nor populists like:).

Quote from: Bren;850700
This reminds me of a Friends of Darkover meeting that a buddy of mine dragged me to back in the early eighties. Those folks would have loved language seminars. They all had Darkover names and came across to me as a very odd bunch. Which, considering I'd been playing RPGs for maybe a decade, and had been to Sci-Fi cons and SCA events is kind of saying something. Not as weird as the Amway meeting I got suckered into later though.

OK, that says a lot, indeed.
But then, Darkover was the thing that persuaded me that MZB might have fans, but I'm not going to be one of those. So I'm less surprised than you;).

Quote from: Bren;850852

That is a point I find I have to reinforce in some of my games. A lot of players/people just don't easily or naturally think about attire and demeanor in that way. No doubt this is abetted by the move to much more casual business and leisure attire world wide. And the US is definitely way out front on this one.

I vaguely remember my players in Fates Worse Than Death considering whether to kill someone in order to get the proper attire. It didn't seem weird to them.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;851031
I have 6000 troops at my back, I'm not going to dick around with a one on one duel with the enemy general.

In the "Qadarli," the "little wars," which were more like duels, taking the enemy command unit is a good idea.

But the idea that armies ever abided by the result of a "duel of commanders" anytime anywhere is frankly nugatory.

You're thinking of "professional soldiers". Try "conscripts". The kind that are going to fight "because they're more afraid of the punishment", to quote the Chinese treaties.
Still ready to bet those wouldn't run?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;851157
Years of chasing and being chased through the deserts of Milumanaya tends to blunt one's taste for ritual, doesn't it?

I'd bet it does.
Then again, I'm also pretty sure said deserts didn't have you meeting conscripts.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;851449
Oh, let's open this can of worms, shall we? :)

Prof. M. A.R. Barker was 'Stability/Change' from around 1948 to 2012. He liked the dichotomy, and didn't see that there was an issue with it. We played it that way at his games; in his view of his creation, it wasn't a major issue in the life of the people who lived in his world.

Mr. E. Gary Gygax and Mr. David L. Arneson were 'Good vs. Evil' from about 1972-73 to well into the 2000's.

Mr. Gygax and Mr. Arneson persuaded Prof. Barker to drop the 'shades of grey' approach that 'Stability / Change' embraced, and so the published edition of what became EPT had this removed and the black and white 'Good vs. Evil' inserted in to the blanks. This was largely due to their firm belief that gamers didn't have the cultural sophistication or the native intelligence to deal with anything more complicated then a black-and-white dichotomy.

So, EPT got changed in the summer of 1974, and there you are. As Phil once said: "Well, he was paying for it." and shrugged his shoulders. Just to add to the fun, Phil once remarked that by Dave and Gary's standards, all of Tekumel's religions are EEEEEEEEvil in comparison to the various (and Phil's opinion, rather vague and undefined) religions in D&D; Gary and Dave had to admit the point, to their discomfort.

And I've got to admit that the only thing that I hate more than "thou shall take gaming to illogical extremes, for it is a nartform" is the approach "dumb it down, you that game are too dumb to get it if there are shades of grey". Hey, buddy, I'm a gamer, are you really trying to offend me?

As stated before, populists and elitists tend to hate me roughly equally. You can now see why:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 29, 2015, 01:55:46 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;851714
How "adventurous" is travel for beginning players?
You had mentioned "greasing" the palms of the road guards.
Are there road guards on all roads or just the Sakbe?

From your experience, is the main danger in the countryside starving villagers and bandits?
=


Well, if you stay on the main routes, it's pretty safe. The only guards are on the Sakbe roads; any place else you're pretty much on your own. There are small detachments of 'river police', but they are few and far between.

You are always better off hiring the locals as guides, as they'll usually know what to expect - and be a source of adventures, as well!

The wildlife. The bandits stick to the main routes, because that's where the money is. The villagers are usually quite peaceful and willing to take in travelers, but be very mindful of the local customs and always ask first; they have plenty of places to hide the bodies, and nobody will ever know.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 29, 2015, 01:58:10 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;851754
Speaking of countryside,
Would carving out areas that are bordered by Tekumel's native vegetation as "wild zones" fit your experience?

Was this something you dealt with?

Areas that all manner of opponents can sally forth from.
=


No, not in my group. We were soldiers, and the people who had to deal with whatever came out of the deep woods. (shudder!)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 29, 2015, 02:18:36 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;851805
Chirine,

I know you mentioned that one of your clan wives was from a different temple than yourself. That you both kept an eye on each other...

Can you please talk a bit about how an individual's loyalities would go on Tekumel in general? Wife, Clan, Temple, Empire...Empire, Temple, Clan, Wife, etc.

Thanks,

H :0)


Sure. Let's start with Their Ladyships, in order of their marriage contracts:

1. Senior Wife:
Priestess of Mretten, reports my nefarious doings to her temple;

2. First Concubine:
Priestess of Ksarul, reports my nefarious doings to her temple and secret society;

3. "Huh?" "Even-numbered month, dear. She's your third, I'm your fourth." "Yes, dear." Anyway...

3. Junior Wife:
Priestess of Kirreneb, reports my nefarious doings to her temple and secret police;

4. Chief Courtesan:
Priestess of the Lost One of the Sea, reports my nefarious doings to her temple and secret police;

5. Second Concubine:
Priestess of Dilinala, reports my nefarious doings to her temple and to all of the above.

As the Glorious General noted in his reply, who you are being loyal to in any given situation depends on the context of the situation. If I'm with my legion, I look out for my troops, with my family, I look out for them.

Generally, the sequence goes:

Immediate family, immediate clan, Legion (if one), secret society, distant family, temple, political faction or party, distant clan, nation-state (if any).

It's a real balancing act, and about the only reason why it works is because everybody has to do it - so compromise is usually the order of the day.

Do you want more? This is a very complex subject, and I could go on for ages... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 29, 2015, 02:21:59 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;851822
It depends.  Chorine worships Vimuhla, my character worships Karakan.  We both loyally serve the Empire in the same legion.


Yep. We may be of different faiths, and maybe political parties. I'm an Imperialist; the Glorious General may be from the Military Party - I never asked him, myself, as we were a little too busy most of the time trying to stay alive.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 29, 2015, 02:24:19 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;851852

And I've got to admit that the only thing that I hate more than "thou shall take gaming to illogical extremes, for it is a nartform" is the approach "dumb it down, you that game are too dumb to get it if there are shades of grey". Hey, buddy, I'm a gamer, are you really trying to offend me?


Yeah, same here. I think Dave and Gary were looking at 'marketability of the product', more then anything else.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on August 29, 2015, 10:56:50 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;851878
Yeah, same here. I think Dave and Gary were looking at 'marketability of the product', more then anything else.


Marketability is certainly important. Then again, you've mentioned that Tekumel never was a great commercial success, right?
Maybe dumbing it down isn't always the best idea.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 29, 2015, 11:37:07 AM
From the answers that have been given, it doesn't seem to me to be any harder to run an EPT game than a standard D&D game, except for the players.

It seems much harder for players because it is a strange setting that they don't know every detail of to the nth degree.
They also have to re-orient their outlook from "ME" centered to "US" centered.
(I think using family name first would really help with this and I'm surprised that later editions didn't do it.)

Do you think it is especially hard to find and keep players for EPT these days?

Besides dealing with the expectations created by some people that it is an Exclusive Game,
what do you think is the hardest thing that new GMs have to deal with?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 29, 2015, 01:35:20 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;851877
Yep. We may be of different faiths, and maybe political parties. I'm an Imperialist; the Glorious General may be from the Military Party - I never asked him, myself, as we were a little too busy most of the time trying to stay alive.


Actually I was also a proponent of the Imperial Party.  Hence my reply to the Emperor when I got my first Gold of Glory... "My only wish is to be allowed to continue to serve the Petal Throne."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 29, 2015, 01:39:11 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;851917
Marketability is certainly important. Then again, you've mentioned that Tekumel never was a great commercial success, right?
Maybe dumbing it down isn't always the best idea.


$25 was BIG money in 1976.  On the other hand those maps were indestructable.  Ran into Terry Kuntz at GaryCon 2 years ago, he's STILL proud of those maps (he did the production design, including the fabric.)

Also, as far as "dumbing down," you ALSO have to remember that at this time Gary and Dave were being inundated by letters even this soon, asking for "explanations" and "clarifications" of such stuff as "how far does a dwarf move in armor."

By 1976 the stream of mail had turned into a flood.  I think Gary and Dave were worried, with good reason, of having their flood of mail turned into a tsunami of letters about Tekumel.

Hel's bells, it took me years of weekly gaming to "get" some of this stuff.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 29, 2015, 08:03:27 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;851877
Yep. We may be of different faiths, and maybe political parties. I'm an Imperialist; the Glorious General may be from the Military Party - I never asked him, myself, as we were a little too busy most of the time trying to stay alive.


Thank you, Gents. I get the jist. Friendship and necessity play a role as well.

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 29, 2015, 08:14:30 PM
Just wondering about kitchens and bathrooms...I would think it depends on the country and where. But is the cooking that is done in the clan houses done in a fireplace or on open fires in special areas within the kitchen?

Also in the clan house, when one is using the water closet, does one sit or squat?

Thanks,

H :0)

PS Hope this question is not to silly. Some places I've been in the East, I had to squat...Different than what I was used to.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 29, 2015, 08:20:20 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;851917
Marketability is certainly important. Then again, you've mentioned that Tekumel never was a great commercial success, right?
Maybe dumbing it down isn't always the best idea.


EPT was a very good commercial success; according to the Professor's royalty statements and a letter from Kevin Blume, the initial print run of 1,000 boxed sets sold out in three months - at $25 a copy, in 1975! - and TSR then did two more print runs of 5,000 copies each, 95% of which had sold out of stock by the end of the first quarter of 1976. (All remaining copies were sold to Gamescience.)

Unfortunately, this success was the beginnings of the problems that caused Prof. Barker and TSR to part ways. Phil thought he should be getting more money for all the work he was putting into promotion and marketing the product, and TSR had cash-flow issues over the royalty payments removing capital from the company. (This was also the root cause of the issues that Dave Arneson had with TSR, and which were fought out for about five years in a series of lawsuits.)

The IP went into what amounted to fan publication, and since there was no money for investment in things like new products, marketing, etc., the thing basically wilted.

See the post from Gronan on the thoughts of Gary and Dave; I think he's right, myself.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 29, 2015, 08:28:50 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;851919
From the answers that have been given, it doesn't seem to me to be any harder to run an EPT game than a standard D&D game, except for the players.

It seems much harder for players because it is a strange setting that they don't know every detail of to the nth degree.
They also have to re-orient their outlook from "ME" centered to "US" centered.
(I think using family name first would really help with this and I'm surprised that later editions didn't do it.)

Do you think it is especially hard to find and keep players for EPT these days?

Besides dealing with the expectations created by some people that it is an Exclusive Game,
what do you think is the hardest thing that new GMs have to deal with?
=


I think you're right; it isn't.

Paradoxically, people who don't have much RPG experience seem to have a much easier time getting into Tekumel as a world-setting. They seem to be a lot more open to new things, and they also seem to have a lot less to 'unlearn' then experience RPG players.

I don't have problems getting new players, assuming that I don't try to recruit 'gamers' to play. A friend's high school D&D group came over to play, and had a great time; OSR people will not play, as they are all fanatic worshippers of some new retro-clone or something. (The OSR folks seem to be very self-referential and self-absorbed, in my personal experience.) If I can talk to somebody for a bit about Tekumel, and tell them what we did, back in ye olden dayes, they tend to come and play - and stay.

The big issue is lack of support or encouragement for new GMs, from where I'm sitting. No new products, no new gamers; we've learned that innumerable times in the game industry over the past four decades.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 29, 2015, 08:30:05 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;851936
Actually I was also a proponent of the Imperial Party.  Hence my reply to the Emperor when I got my first Gold of Glory... "My only wish is to be allowed to continue to serve the Petal Throne."


And there you are; life on Tekumel in a nutshell.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 29, 2015, 08:30:56 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;851974
Thank you, Gents. I get the jist. Friendship and necessity play a role as well.

H :0)


Precisely! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 29, 2015, 08:33:18 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;851975
Just wondering about kitchens and bathrooms...I would think it depends on the country and where. But is the cooking that is done in the clan houses done in a fireplace or on open fires in special areas within the kitchen?

Also in the clan house, when one is using the water closet, does one sit or squat?

Thanks,

H :0)

PS Hope this question is not to silly. Some places I've been in the East, I had to squat...Different than what I was used to.


Kitchens - both. You also get fires under big flat stones, which serve as 'hot plates' for cooking. look at South Asia and the Middle East for examples.

One usually squats; again, Phil's experience in South Asia comes into play.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 29, 2015, 08:58:22 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;851982
Kitchens - both. You also get fires under big flat stones, which serve as 'hot plates' for cooking. look at South Asia and the Middle East for examples.

One usually squats; again, Phil's experience in South Asia comes into play.

 
Excellent. Mine too.

H ;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 29, 2015, 11:00:33 PM
The OSR, or parts of it, are a rather odd duck.

Firstly, there is one bunch that is dissecting the texts almost letter by letter trying to extract the "true meaning."  It would be funny if it weren't sad; it's rather like a bunch of third rate Talmudic scholars trying to exegete while stoned out of their minds.

Another bunch is trying to "capture the original experience" by taking those same texts and searching for some sort of ur-game.

When I point this out, I have sometimes been lambasted by people saying "not all of us had the games authors to play with you big meanie poo poo head!"

But then I point out that though Dave, Gary, and Phil may have passed, Greg Swenson is still alive and has an online presence, Bill Hoyt is still alive and has an online presence, Dave Megarry is still alive and has an online presence, Dave Wesley is still alive and has an online presence, Rob Kuntz is still alive and has an online presence, Terry Kuntz is still alive and has an online presence, Tim Kask is still alive and has an online presence, Jim Ward is still alive and has an online presence.

So if they want to know what they early days of the game were like, THEY ONLY HAVE TO ASK THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE.

I guess I'm just Unmutual, Number 2.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 29, 2015, 11:14:42 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;851987
Excellent. Mine too.

H ;0)


Well, there you go; you're probably better at Tekumel then I am, then, as I've never had the chance to go to that part of our world... :(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 29, 2015, 11:29:26 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;851991
The OSR, or parts of it, are a rather odd duck.

Firstly, there is one bunch that is dissecting the texts almost letter by letter trying to extract the "true meaning."  It would be funny if it weren't sad; it's rather like a bunch of third rate Talmudic scholars trying to exegete while stoned out of their minds.

Another bunch is trying to "capture the original experience" by taking those same texts and searching for some sort of ur-game.

When I point this out, I have sometimes been lambasted by people saying "not all of us had the games authors to play with you big meanie poo poo head!"

But then I point out that though Dave, Gary, and Phil may have passed, Greg Swenson is still alive and has an online presence, Bill Hoyt is still alive and has an online presence, Dave Megarry is still alive and has an online presence, Dave Wesley is still alive and has an online presence, Rob Kuntz is still alive and has an online presence, Terry Kuntz is still alive and has an online presence, Tim Kask is still alive and has an online presence, Jim Ward is still alive and has an online presence.

So if they want to know what they early days of the game were like, THEY ONLY HAVE TO ASK THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE.

I guess I'm just Unmutual, Number 2.


You big meanie poo-poo head, you!!! All of those people you mention are not part of the OSR - or so I am told by some of the OSR's greatest acolytes - and thus are not qualified to speak to the issue of what is and is not RightGoodFun RPG games.

I do agree with you; what astonished me about Gary Con last year was seeing just how much the players we had in the RPG event enjoyed their time with us. All we did was our usual style of gaming, just like we used to do at Coffman, and they seemed to love it. I got the real distinct impression from what I saw on-line after the convention that it was a non-event for the on-line members of the OSR - none of the 'usual suspects' went and played, it seemed to me, because the convention was not 'an OSR event' with little or no OSR gaming.

I still find it amazing that I get asked "Why don't you play a set of OSR rules?" when I mention EPT; I had thought that OD&D and EPT (amongst other games of the same vintage) might be included in the OSR's purview, but I have been told repeatedly that I am wrong. All of those 'ye olde games', I am told over and over again, were so seriously flawed and unplayable that we could not have possibly played them, and we are hopelessly out of touch with modern gaming.

Well, yeah, all right; what I keep hammering away on is that Tekumel is a world-setting, not a set of rules, and can be used no matter what the rules system the GM / players might want to play. There is no 'right' or 'wrong'; to me, it's all about what you and your group like to play and enjoy playing. (I am told that this approach is BadWrongFun, by the way.)

I'd like to see Chicagowiz (spelling, sorry!) take a run at this; he's had a lot more time in grade on this then I have...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 30, 2015, 12:49:40 AM
Well, never forget that on the Internet the number one form of entertainment is pissing on other peoples' fun.

Seriously, it happened over at the Model Railroader Magazine forums again today; somebody posted in excitement about a DM&IR Yellowstone coming out in HO scale for about $600, and three or four assgaskets showed up to tell him why it was a stupid model and he was stupid for liking it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Luca on August 30, 2015, 04:37:10 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;851994

I do agree with you; what astonished me about Gary Con last year was seeing just how much the players we had in the RPG event enjoyed their time with us.


I have to say, I really envy you people having the possibility of playing with the "old guard". Sitting on the other side of the pond makes the prospect unfeasible.

Gary actually came in Italy once, being invited to a game convention, and ran some adventure. I didn't go to that particular con and I'll always regret it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on August 30, 2015, 10:44:33 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;851938
$25 was BIG money in 1976.  On the other hand those maps were indestructable.  Ran into Terry Kuntz at GaryCon 2 years ago, he's STILL proud of those maps (he did the production design, including the fabric.)

Also, as far as "dumbing down," you ALSO have to remember that at this time Gary and Dave were being inundated by letters even this soon, asking for "explanations" and "clarifications" of such stuff as "how far does a dwarf move in armor."

By 1976 the stream of mail had turned into a flood.  I think Gary and Dave were worried, with good reason, of having their flood of mail turned into a tsunami of letters about Tekumel.

Hel's bells, it took me years of weekly gaming to "get" some of this stuff.

Well, I can't speak for your experiences in the early years of gaming. I know that my players "got" Tekumel in minutes with just an explanation from me.
Then again, it might be regional. Most of the good players I know have little issues grasping some core concepts, like hierarchical societies and clan-based societies, that seem to be a Big Deal on the other side of the Atlantic.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;851977
EPT was a very good commercial success; according to the Professor's royalty statements and a letter from Kevin Blume, the initial print run of 1,000 boxed sets sold out in three months - at $25 a copy, in 1975! - and TSR then did two more print runs of 5,000 copies each, 95% of which had sold out of stock by the end of the first quarter of 1976. (All remaining copies were sold to Gamescience.)

Unfortunately, this success was the beginnings of the problems that caused Prof. Barker and TSR to part ways. Phil thought he should be getting more money for all the work he was putting into promotion and marketing the product, and TSR had cash-flow issues over the royalty payments removing capital from the company. (This was also the root cause of the issues that Dave Arneson had with TSR, and which were fought out for about five years in a series of lawsuits.)

The IP went into what amounted to fan publication, and since there was no money for investment in things like new products, marketing, etc., the thing basically wilted.

See the post from Gronan on the thoughts of Gary and Dave; I think he's right, myself.

OK, you might have been talking about a later edition.
And well, I said it already. I really, really can't talk about what Gary and Dave were thinking. I'm just quite sure that if you try and run a complex setting, but change it to be into black and white...well, it might work. But you might also end up with a setting that's too complex for people that like black and white, and not nuanced enough for those that like shades of grey.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;851979
I think you're right; it isn't.

Paradoxically, people who don't have much RPG experience seem to have a much easier time getting into Tekumel as a world-setting. They seem to be a lot more open to new things, and they also seem to have a lot less to 'unlearn' then experience RPG players.

I don't have problems getting new players, assuming that I don't try to recruit 'gamers' to play. A friend's high school D&D group came over to play, and had a great time; OSR people will not play, as they are all fanatic worshippers of some new retro-clone or something. (The OSR folks seem to be very self-referential and self-absorbed, in my personal experience.) If I can talk to somebody for a bit about Tekumel, and tell them what we did, back in ye olden dayes, they tend to come and play - and stay.

The big issue is lack of support or encouragement for new GMs, from where I'm sitting. No new products, no new gamers; we've learned that innumerable times in the game industry over the past four decades.

What are those "experienced" people that have never met a setting that's at least similar to Tekumel? Seriously, that's just weird.

And yes, the lack of encouragement is a problem. Though why people want new products for a game line is something that's, frankly, beyond me.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;851991
The OSR, or parts of it, are a rather odd duck.

Firstly, there is one bunch that is dissecting the texts almost letter by letter trying to extract the "true meaning."  It would be funny if it weren't sad; it's rather like a bunch of third rate Talmudic scholars trying to exegete while stoned out of their minds.

Well, I'm sure a bunch of stoned Talmudic scholars would make a great game if you could get them to play...:D
But yeah, I've seen people like that on another forum. I just decided that this isn't what I'm looking for, and passed their games.

Quote
Another bunch is trying to "capture the original experience" by taking those same texts and searching for some sort of ur-game.

Nothing wrong with searching for the Platonic Ideal of a game. You just need scholarly studies on games in general, and many games of all kinds, not just D&D.

Quote
When I point this out, I have sometimes been lambasted by people saying "not all of us had the games authors to play with you big meanie poo poo head!"

So what? Are people in the USA so steeped in "patent law" that they need to know what the author was doing?
To us here, it doesn't matter whether the people that created a game where doing it differently. The only thing that matters is what we like. We'll repurpose the games if we want to.
I really don't understand that objection. Seriously.
(Aside from calling you a "big meanie poo poo head", of course:D! But I'd assume that that one is just a consequence of what they objected to in your message).

Quote
But then I point out that though Dave, Gary, and Phil may have passed, Greg Swenson is still alive and has an online presence, Bill Hoyt is still alive and has an online presence, Dave Megarry is still alive and has an online presence, Dave Wesley is still alive and has an online presence, Rob Kuntz is still alive and has an online presence, Terry Kuntz is still alive and has an online presence, Tim Kask is still alive and has an online presence, Jim Ward is still alive and has an online presence.

So if they want to know what they early days of the game were like, THEY ONLY HAVE TO ASK THE PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE.

And let's not forget a certain Mike Mornard guy, I hear he's got an online presence as well...:P
Actually, what I'd like to ask all of the above is the same.
"Apart from specific mechanics, what did the latest 3 editions of D&D dropped that you were using, and what did they add?"
Seriously. I'm not trying to recreate the games you had, I'm trying to learn from your experience. Such questions are much more useful in my book!

Quote
I guess I'm just Unmutual, Number 2.

Unmutual and Unforgiven, I guess. (And yes, I do mean Metallica's song!)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;851994
You big meanie poo-poo head, you!!! All of those people you mention are not part of the OSR - or so I am told by some of the OSR's greatest acolytes - and thus are not qualified to speak to the issue of what is and is not RightGoodFun RPG games.

...since when do you need any qualification apart from "I run and play games, my GMs aren't kicking me out and my players keep coming for more"?

Quote
I do agree with you; what astonished me about Gary Con last year was seeing just how much the players we had in the RPG event enjoyed their time with us. All we did was our usual style of gaming, just like we used to do at Coffman, and they seemed to love it. I got the real distinct impression from what I saw on-line after the convention that it was a non-event for the on-line members of the OSR - none of the 'usual suspects' went and played, it seemed to me, because the convention was not 'an OSR event' with little or no OSR gaming.

:rolleyes:

Quote
I still find it amazing that I get asked "Why don't you play a set of OSR rules?" when I mention EPT; I had thought that OD&D and EPT (amongst other games of the same vintage) might be included in the OSR's purview, but I have been told repeatedly that I am wrong.  All of those 'ye olde games', I am told over and over again, were so seriously flawed and unplayable that we could not have possibly played them, and we are hopelessly out of touch with modern gaming.

Wait, what? Aren't those the proto-games that the OSR is based on?
I mean, seriously...

Quote
Well, yeah, all right; what I keep hammering away on is that Tekumel is a world-setting, not a set of rules, and can be used no matter what the rules system the GM / players might want to play. There is no 'right' or 'wrong'; to me, it's all about what you and your group like to play and enjoy playing. (I am told that this approach is BadWrongFun, by the way.)

Sounds logical...wait, what? Since when is the OSR considering BadWrongFun the existence of settings distinct from their systems?

Quote
I'd like to see Chicagowiz (spelling, sorry!) take a run at this; he's had a lot more time in grade on this then I have...

Me too. You two with Gronan are just trying to persuade me that I don't understant what the OSR is about!
(Or at least it seems so. Though I'm afraid that this is not the case).

Personally, to me it's mostly about Permission By Tradition and innovation. "Many people had fun with these games, thus it's legit for you to have fun with them as well. But if you want to use them differently, here are some changes you might make".
Or I might be totally wrong. No skin off my back even if I am.


Quote from: Luca;852010
I have to say, I really envy you people having the possibility of playing with the "old guard". Sitting on the other side of the pond makes the prospect unfeasible.

Gary actually came in Italy once, being invited to a game convention, and ran some adventure. I didn't go to that particular con and I'll always regret it.

As a fellow EU citizen, I feel your pain:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 30, 2015, 04:38:19 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;852000
Well, never forget that on the Internet the number one form of entertainment is pissing on other peoples' fun.

Seriously, it happened over at the Model Railroader Magazine forums again today; somebody posted in excitement about a DM&IR Yellowstone coming out in HO scale for about $600, and three or four assgaskets showed up to tell him why it was a stupid model and he was stupid for liking it.


Agreed. And your example is a prime reason why I stopped going to the Hennepin Overland Model Railroad Club - I'm sorry, Museum; they changed the name for tax purposes - and giving them my hobby money. I got tired of the hassle I got for my BadWrongFun ideas - Great Western Railway in 'OO', not a 'Murrican railroad in HO; oh, the heresy!!! - and took my business elsewhere. (Wakefield, West Yorkshire, to be precise.)

I stopped gaming at The Source Comics and Games for pretty much the same reason; I got tired of being told by the shop staff that I was some kind of freak for doing big miniatures games, and why wasn't I playing a real game like D&DWhateverEdition or Pathfinder.

The straw that broke the camel's back was the day I went up to the cash register with a big basket of the new Pathfinder miniatures by Reaper, and the young snot behind the counter told me that the store was running a Pathfinder tournament, and if I asked nicely he'd get me into a game so I'd be eligible for the Big Prizes. I politely replied that I did not play Pathfinder; he gave me the sort of look usually given to the totally stupid and asked me "Then why are you buying the Pathfinder figures?"

I had just started to reply that I was buying them because I liked them and enjoyed painting them, when the other young snot behind the other till told the first one that "He's really weird; he doesn't play games, he just runs them."

Well, all right. I bought the figures, because I did like them and can use them in my games, but I was pretty discouraged by the incident. My purchases at the store dropped from about $2,500 a year down to last year's grand total of $100. (Laser-cut boats; I can use them for both RPGs and wargames.)

Now, pretty much all of my hobby money now goes to on-line shops; for some odd reason, they seem to be very happy to take my money.

And the icing on the came came last year, when the shop staff asked me point-bank why I wasn't running any games there, any more. Apparently, from what they told me, my games were always a big boost for miniatures sales - my games would routinely bring in about $1,500 in miniatures sales on the day I was doing my thing. "Please, oh, please," they said, "won't you please come back and run more of your wonderful games?"

I smiled, and told them the same thing as I just mentioned above, paid for my lovely little boats, and left. Haven't been back since, haven't bought anything since, and just don't miss it. I get my paints at the crafts store - cheaper, my resin scenery items at the pet shop (aquarium and terrarium items) - cheaper, and my figures on-line directly from the manufacturer - cheaper.

So much for my 'FLGS'; and people wonder why retail shops are struggling.

And they are still better then the game shop in my neighborhood, Gamers' Vault. Walked in there in a Saturday afternoon to browse around, and got ignored by the four gamer guys behind the counter, who were using the shop's high-speed Internet to play an online game. After about twenty minutes, I left. No purchase.

And they are even yet better then the other local store, Tower Games, which is the hang-out for the local 'Warmachine' players and one of the local 'Warhammer' Chapters; walked in there one day with Eldest Daughter - who's a gamer, by the way - and OhMyGod!!!AWoman!!! erupted. We were just about thrown out for defiling The Sacred Chambers Of The Holy Temple; I could not believe the hostile looks we got from the gamer boys. (Didn't buy anything there, either.)

I try very hard not to piss on other people's fun. What works for you and your gamers is fine by me.

However, my bucket is only so big. Eventually, I get tired of emptying it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 30, 2015, 04:42:10 PM
Quote from: Luca;852010
I have to say, I really envy you people having the possibility of playing with the "old guard". Sitting on the other side of the pond makes the prospect unfeasible.

Gary actually came in Italy once, being invited to a game convention, and ran some adventure. I didn't go to that particular con and I'll always regret it.


Well, I think we were lucky, back in the day, and i think we're lucky now with Luke and his family being willing to host a convention where all us old farts are welcome.

And it's why I try to answer your questions as honestly and accurately as possible. If there's anything I have that you can take away from my ramblings, please feel free to do so!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 30, 2015, 05:01:43 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;852028
Well, I can't speak for your experiences in the early years of gaming. I know that my players "got" Tekumel in minutes with just an explanation from me.
Then again, it might be regional. Most of the good players I know have little issues grasping some core concepts, like hierarchical societies and clan-based societies, that seem to be a Big Deal on the other side of the Atlantic.


OK, you might have been talking about a later edition.
And well, I said it already. I really, really can't talk about what Gary and Dave were thinking. I'm just quite sure that if you try and run a complex setting, but change it to be into black and white...well, it might work. But you might also end up with a setting that's too complex for people that like black and white, and not nuanced enough for those that like shades of grey.


What are those "experienced" people that have never met a setting that's at least similar to Tekumel? Seriously, that's just weird.

And yes, the lack of encouragement is a problem. Though why people want new products for a game line is something that's, frankly, beyond me.

Well, I'm sure a bunch of stoned Talmudic scholars would make a great game if you could get them to play...:D
But yeah, I've seen people like that on another forum. I just decided that this isn't what I'm looking for, and passed their games.

Nothing wrong with searching for the Platonic Ideal of a game. You just need scholarly studies on games in general, and many games of all kinds, not just D&D.


So what? Are people in the USA so steeped in "patent law" that they need to know what the author was doing?
To us here, it doesn't matter whether the people that created a game where doing it differently. The only thing that matters is what we like. We'll repurpose the games if we want to.
I really don't understand that objection. Seriously.

Actually, what I'd like to ask all of the above is the same.
"Apart from specific mechanics, what did the latest 3 editions of D&D dropped that you were using, and what did they add?"
Seriously. I'm not trying to recreate the games you had, I'm trying to learn from your experience. Such questions are much more useful in my book!

...since when do you need any qualification apart from "I run and play games, my GMs aren't kicking me out and my players keep coming for more"?

:rolleyes:

Wait, what? Aren't those the proto-games that the OSR is based on?
I mean, seriously...

Sounds logical...wait, what? Since when is the OSR considering BadWrongFun the existence of settings distinct from their systems?

Me too. You two with Gronan are just trying to persuade me that I don't understant what the OSR is about!
(Or at least it seems so. Though I'm afraid that this is not the case).

Personally, to me it's mostly about Permission By Tradition and innovation. "Many people had fun with these games, thus it's legit for you to have fun with them as well. But if you want to use them differently, here are some changes you might make".
Or I might be totally wrong. No skin off my back even if I am.


Taking things in some sort of order...

Personally, I think your players 'got' Tekumel very quickly because they aren't Americans. We Yanks tend to be culturally illiterate, and pretty narrow-minded and uneducated. See also Gary and Dave on 'evil-good' vs. 'Stability-Change'. Too complicated for 'Murricans, they felt.

Yes; all later editions and products have been commercially insignificant. However, you fix thins by moving the goalposts and putting a spin on the data. Or just ignore the numbers, and talk in platitudes.

Encouragement comes from introductory products, and not being elitist. Tellling a new player or GM that they have to master a language in order to play doesn;t get you any players of GMs; see also The Pundit's comments on this, or the vast commerical success of Harn or Jorune; one of those was explictly modeled on Tekumel, and you had to learn a new vocabulary. Didn't work, despite some really good effort on the part of the authors.

Encouragement does not come from am on-line forum were the routine discussions - when there are any - are all about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It does put people off.

Exactly. Which is why "Playing at the World" has not gone over well with quite a few Big-Name OSR people, Jon told me at Gary Con this past spring.

Yes. People need to know what colors Dave Arneson's plaid shirt was, so that they can 'get it right'. Honest to god - actual question I got from a gamer.

Exactly. All I can do is tell you what we did out at Phil's for all those years, and let you take away what you need and can use. I'm an archivist, not a censor. Nor do I feel the need to rewrite history, either, to make myself look more important and enhance my 'prestige'.

No, All those old games Got It Wrong, and only my new game gets it right. Dave and Gary and Phil were just some guys who just got lucky, according to some of the OSR folks who I've talked to. Only the OSR follows the One True Faith; all others, from all places and times, are big poopies.

Or so I'm told by my betters, anyway.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 30, 2015, 07:24:01 PM
Well, for what it is worth, it is helpful and builds confidence to know my vision is not completely off from the way the game was originally played.

I don't know if you have seen or recall the movie "Multiplicity" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplicity_(film)) but I worry of getting to be a copy of a copy.

Now I do know that it is not a "Big Deal" if I make it my own but when I say I'm playing "EPT" then I want to make sure that I am.
If I'm creating a game Ad-hoc then I should say it is a Homebrew setting loosely based on EPT instead.

Again, not THE END OF THE WORLD but, when taking a tour down memory lane, I want to be sure I'm on the right road.

Oh, and when's the book going to be available?? :D
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 30, 2015, 10:24:18 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;852028

"Apart from specific mechanics, what did the latest 3 editions of D&D dropped that you were using, and what did they add?"


Well, I haven't looked carefully at AD&D 1st edition carefully in over 25 years; I've never looked at 2nd edition; I played some Star Wars d20 which I'm told is similar to 3rd edition, and I found the rules horribly restrictive and excessively complicated; likewise for Pathfinder; I spent 10 minutes looking at the free startup 4th Ed and decided "too fucking many rules"; and I've never glanced at 5th ed.

SO I have no idea except by "reconnaissance by fire," based on what those who play it say.

Sometime in there the idea of, to quote Skip Williams, "rules to protect the players from the arbitrary whims of the referee" became popular, at which moment OD&D as I understand it died.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 30, 2015, 10:27:27 PM
Also, I'm sad that ol' Fightin' Bob has let the staff at the Source go to crap like that.  He used to rule with a rod of iron.

"He was a cruel man, but fair."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 30, 2015, 10:35:40 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;852069
Well, for what it is worth, it is helpful and builds confidence to know my vision is not completely off from the way the game was originally played.

I don't know if you have seen or recall the movie "Multiplicity" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplicity_(film)) but I worry of getting to be a copy of a copy.

Now I do know that it is not a "Big Deal" if I make it my own but when I say I'm playing "EPT" then I want to make sure that I am.
If I'm creating a game Ad-hoc then I should say it is a Homebrew setting loosely based on EPT instead.

Again, not THE END OF THE WORLD but, when taking a tour down memory lane, I want to be sure I'm on the right road.

Oh, and when's the book going to be available?? :D
=


Sure, and I understand that. The kind of questions that you and the other folks on this thread are asking are in line with this - you're asking about the philosophy and play style that Phil used in the early days, and not what color his white T-shirts were. (Full of burn holes, actually.) These are great questions, and I really enjoy trying to answer them for you.

It's my way of encouraging people to give Phil's creation a whirl. Sure, it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea, and I understand that. What gets me is that the Tekumel that Phil played with us is a lot more in line with the kind of games you and the other posters here have been talking about - more open, more inclusive, and more 'rip-snorting action-adventure-romance' then the current mythology tends to seem to accept.

Language classes at game conventions? I laughed myself silly when I heard about this one...

Anybody can run Tekumel. Younger folks, who are across the 'digital divide' from us old farts, are very good at it; they have a lot more exposure to diverse cultures and peoples that we did, back in the day, and for most - like the 'young' players I have had and still have - Tekumel is a lot more accessible then it was for us.

If you want to understand what we experienced, have a look at Phil's favorites:

The Barsoom series; "Sign of the Cross" by DeMille; both versions of "Thief of Baghdad"; Lovecraft; Howard; Leiber; the "Flash Gordon" serials - and the movie, which Phil loved to see but hated the dialog.

As for "To Serve The Petal Throne"? When it's finished, about the turn of the year. I have about 210,000 words to go, but I am steaming along nicely.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 30, 2015, 10:41:28 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;852098
Well, I haven't looked carefully at AD&D 1st edition carefully in over 25 years; I've never looked at 2nd edition; I played some Star Wars d20 which I'm told is similar to 3rd edition, and I found the rules horribly restrictive and excessively complicated; likewise for Pathfinder; I spent 10 minutes looking at the free startup 4th Ed and decided "too fucking many rules"; and I've never glanced at 5th ed.

SO I have no idea except by "reconnaissance by fire," based on what those who play it say.

Sometime in there the idea of, to quote Skip Williams, "rules to protect the players from the arbitrary whims of the referee" became popular, at which moment OD&D as I understand it died.


Yep, same here. What with my excessive reading speed, I can read a complete set of rules as I'm standing in the FLGS by the shelf. I've looked at most all of the modern generations of RPG rules as they've come out, and they go right back on the shelf. No sale. As the man says, too many rules.

Yep, I'd agree with the quote, too, and something in me died when I read it.

If you need me, I'll be with the other elderly elephants... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 30, 2015, 10:53:31 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;852100
Also, I'm sad that ol' Fightin' Bob has let the staff at the Source go to crap like that.  He used to rule with a rod of iron.

"He was a cruel man, but fair."


I'd agree with that. The problem has been that as the shop has become the Big Box Superstore of gaming in the Upper Midwest, Bob (Kerdu Karim Missum in Phil's original group, by the way) has been getting stretched thinner and thinner. He can't be everywhere at once, and he's had a difficult time keeping track of what the staff is up to.

There are fewer and fewer 'gamers' working there, and more and more 'comics people' for whom gaming and gaming products are an unwelcome nuisance. The store is divided up into about 60% comics and comics collectables, about 15% board games (the 'Euro-games' genre, mostly), and the rest for 'traditional gaming products'. Of that 25%, about 20% is RPGs, about 10% for the two most popular lines of miniatiures (Warhammer, Warmachine, and the Reaper lines), and the last 5% for all other miniatures genres combined.

Comics, not gaming, is what keeps the doors open and the payroll met they tell me.

I try to get in there once a month to see what's happening, but I very rarely find anything I can use in my games, either RPGs or miniatures. (The little laser-cut boats were a huge exception, and very, very useful.) Haven't been in over six months, at this point... :(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 31, 2015, 01:54:35 PM
Somewhat related to "dealing with the staff"...
I assume that the staff in the clan house is almost all clan members with some slaves to do the really nasty jobs nobody wants to do?

Also, when the players go gallivanting off on some attractive side quest instead of Doing Their Duty, what are the repercussions?  
Just more crap jobs, reprimands, hands slapped?  
What do you think is the worst that could happen?
(Which may actually be what they are asking."

I would assume that bringing back Fame and Fortune to the clan would go a LONG way to having their indiscretion/misbehavior overlooked.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 31, 2015, 02:32:03 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;852249
Somewhat related to "dealing with the staff"...
I assume that the staff in the clan house is almost all clan members with some slaves to do the really nasty jobs nobody wants to do?

Also, when the players go gallivanting off on some attractive side quest instead of Doing Their Duty, what are the repercussions?  
Just more crap jobs, reprimands, hands slapped?  
What do you think is the worst that could happen?
(Which may actually be what they are asking."

I would assume that bringing back Fame and Fortune to the clan would go a LONG way to having their indiscretion/misbehavior overlooked.
=


Yes, I'd say that that is pretty accurate to the way Phil portrayed things. The clan will find jobs for the less well-off members, doing all the 'internal' stuff that keeps the place running; there are not what I'd call 'contract workers' available to do these kinds of things. If a particular specialist was needed, say a really skilled pastry cook for a party, if the clan didn't have such a person available then they'd go to one of the specialist clans that they had a relationship with.

Slaves, as you surmise, tend to get the really unpopular jobs, although a really valued slave might be one of the 'upper staff'; still a slave, and thus of very low status, but they might have a 'good' job. Not all that common, from what we used to see in the campaign.

Errant clanspeople will get all the sanctions that you mention for not getting the job done; the clan also has the ultimate sanction of volunteering the wayward clan member for something terribly heroic and noble, like service with a legion that the clan supports - this will either reform the miscreant, or get them killed. Either way, problem solved for the clan.

However, you are correct re the final product; a certain amount of gallivanting around is expected from the adventurers, as they are assumed to be always looking for a little 'something on the side' for themselves and the clan. As long as they work at getting the main job done, and - as you say - bring home benefits to the clan, there's a lot of tolerance for adventuring.

A big part of that is the sheer danger of adventuring; you are literally risking your life by doing it, and so the clan elders tend to be a little more tolerant of any 'side trips' that you take; it's your skin you're risking, after all!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 01, 2015, 08:33:23 AM
How would a powerful clan put pressure on a lower clan?
To hush them up for example.

What about two of about equal power?

Is it common that a clan would use their connections to call on a higher clan to apply pressure on a competitor?
How would that work?
What type of favors would need to be done to repay?  
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 01, 2015, 02:20:07 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;852382
How would a powerful clan put pressure on a lower clan?
To hush them up for example.

What about two of about equal power?

Is it common that a clan would use their connections to call on a higher clan to apply pressure on a competitor?
How would that work?
What type of favors would need to be done to repay?  
=


Persuasion, bribery, economic boycott, social ostracism, maybe a little political pressure. Outright violence is very rare, as the Imperium (and other governments) doesn't like it for public order reasons.

About the same, for two 'equal' clans.

Yes. 'Patronage' is a very big thing, and if my clan tried to lean too hard on your clan, there's a pretty good chance that your clan would go to Gronan's - with which you have been allied for centuries - to ask them to lean on mine.

Maybe a little cash (which is not the usual thing), help with a project, patronage, political support, maybe a strategic marriage, products that the patron might need, stalwart player-characters to go on an adventure. Lots of possibilities.

"You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on September 01, 2015, 04:24:32 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;852051
Taking things in some sort of order...

Personally, I think your players 'got' Tekumel very quickly because they aren't Americans. We Yanks tend to be culturally illiterate, and pretty narrow-minded and uneducated. See also Gary and Dave on 'evil-good' vs. 'Stability-Change'. Too complicated for 'Murricans, they felt.

Well, I'm not sure I'm buying that Americans are "too uneducated". Sure, we have advantages because of a history of interaction with the Middle East, but that's not quite the same.

Quote
Yes; all later editions and products have been commercially insignificant. However, you fix thins by moving the goalposts and putting a spin on the data. Or just ignore the numbers, and talk in platitudes.

...you remember that we don't all have your eidetic memory, right? I misremembered it, yes. If I was doing research, I'd have checked.

Quote
Encouragement comes from introductory products, and not being elitist. Tellling a new player or GM that they have to master a language in order to play doesn;t get you any players of GMs; see also The Pundit's comments on this, or the vast commerical success of Harn or Jorune; one of those was explictly modeled on Tekumel, and you had to learn a new vocabulary. Didn't work, despite some really good effort on the part of the authors.

I agree, mostly. Although there are ways around "lots of setting info".

Quote
Encouragement does not come from am on-line forum were the routine discussions - when there are any - are all about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It does put people off.

I'd argue that people usually don't even notice discussions like this.

Quote
Exactly. Which is why "Playing at the World" has not gone over well with quite a few Big-Name OSR people, Jon told me at Gary Con this past spring.

I'm not surprised.

Quote
Yes. People need to know what colors Dave Arneson's plaid shirt was, so that they can 'get it right'. Honest to god - actual question I got from a gamer.

...do you know if he was planning to build a full-size manequin and use him as a GM screen.
Quote
Exactly. All I can do is tell you what we did out at Phil's for all those years, and let you take away what you need and can use. I'm an archivist, not a censor. Nor do I feel the need to rewrite history, either, to make myself look more important and enhance my 'prestige'.

And that's why archivists are useful:).

Quote
No, All those old games Got It Wrong, and only my new game gets it right. Dave and Gary and Phil were just some guys who just got lucky, according to some of the OSR folks who I've talked to. Only the OSR follows the One True Faith; all others, from all places and times, are big poopies.

...tell them to look up "freeform".

Quote
Or so I'm told by my betters, anyway.

Your "betters"?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;852098
Well, I haven't looked carefully at AD&D 1st edition carefully in over 25 years; I've never looked at 2nd edition; I played some Star Wars d20 which I'm told is similar to 3rd edition, and I found the rules horribly restrictive and excessively complicated; likewise for Pathfinder; I spent 10 minutes looking at the free startup 4th Ed and decided "too fucking many rules"; and I've never glanced at 5th ed.

SO I have no idea except by "reconnaissance by fire," based on what those who play it say.

Sometime in there the idea of, to quote Skip Williams, "rules to protect the players from the arbitrary whims of the referee" became popular, at which moment OD&D as I understand it died.


Quote from: chirine ba kal;852102
Yep, same here. What with my excessive reading speed, I can read a complete set of rules as I'm standing in the FLGS by the shelf. I've looked at most all of the modern generations of RPG rules as they've come out, and they go right back on the shelf. No sale. As the man says, too many rules.

Yep, I'd agree with the quote, too, and something in me died when I read it.

If you need me, I'll be with the other elderly elephants... :)

OK, that's the opinion I'd expect most of generation to share.

(And BTW, I only know a grand total of one game which aims to protect the players from the GM, that's Burning Wheel. That's not really the purpose of rules-heavy systems. IMO, the goal of having many mechanics is to have many mechanics to play with).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;852101

Language classes at game conventions? I laughed myself silly when I heard about this one...

I admit my reaction wasn't too dissimilar.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;852255

Errant clanspeople will get all the sanctions that you mention for not getting the job done; the clan also has the ultimate sanction of volunteering the wayward clan member for something terribly heroic and noble, like service with a legion that the clan supports - this will either reform the miscreant, or get them killed. Either way, problem solved for the clan.

I'm taking notes, and my players might hate you;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 01, 2015, 09:34:45 PM
How often did you encounter "things" instead of people?

In other words were "demons" or "aliens" unusual opponents or were they just one of the mix?

Were most opponents human? Even when they may be the "cultists" for non-humans?

What was the most surprising "thing" that a human opponent was working in cahoots with?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 02, 2015, 10:29:53 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;852497

(And BTW, I only know a grand total of one game which aims to protect the players from the GM, that's Burning Wheel. That's not really the purpose of rules-heavy systems. IMO, the goal of having many mechanics is to have many mechanics to play with).


Somewhere on this very site is a thread talking about Skip Williams saying in as many words that was the design philosophy of 3rd Ed. D&D.  I don't have time to look right now.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 02, 2015, 10:30:27 AM
Whoot whooot!

Time to get up and go to work
time to get up and go to work
time to get up and go to work
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 02, 2015, 10:35:31 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;852382
How would a powerful clan put pressure on a lower clan?
To hush them up for example.

What about two of about equal power?

Is it common that a clan would use their connections to call on a higher clan to apply pressure on a competitor?
How would that work?
What type of favors would need to be done to repay?  
=


A lot of these sorts of questions, honestly, are answered by "the same way large families do in parts of Asia today" or "the same way English nobility did during the Livery and Maintenace period" or "the same way it was done in the Italian City States."

Or even, "read Romeo and Juliet and notice what happens BESIDES the two lovers."

Tekumelyani humans are, after all, human, and humans have been solving these problems for centuries.  "Clans" are just extended families, and similar structures have been around for years.

Even the "Life in a Medieval Castle/Village/Times" series would be a huge help, as would "Time Traveler's Guide to Medieval England."

Your typical D&D world is late 19th century England dressed up for a costume ball; it's about as "medieval" as the Beefeaters at today's Tower of London.  Running your clans like a bunch of families of feudal nobility will not be far off the mark, and it will be as alien to your players as can be.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 02, 2015, 11:50:58 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;852497
Well, I'm not sure I'm buying that Americans are "too uneducated". Sure, we have advantages because of a history of interaction with the Middle East, but that's not quite the same.

...you remember that we don't all have your eidetic memory, right? I misremembered it, yes. If I was doing research, I'd have checked.

I'd argue that people usually don't even notice discussions like this.

...do you know if he was planning to build a full-size manequin and use him as a GM screen.

Your "betters"?

OK, that's the opinion I'd expect most of generation to share.


You haven't been to Middle America, have you? :) It's a lot more basic then that; quite a few Americans are unaware that Canada is an independent nation-state.

No problem; I've been living with the thing for thirty-five+ years.

Um, I get quite a few e-mails from people who do pay attention to what's being said on the Internet, and how they perceive the discussions. It may very well be atypical, but it does happen, at least in my experience.

The OSR. are my betters; just ask them. :)

I'm not sure about the 'generation' in your comment. I personally prefer fewer rules, myself, but that's me. I don't think I can speak for my generation of gamers; besides, most of them are dead.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 02, 2015, 11:58:12 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;852573
How often did you encounter "things" instead of people?

In other words were "demons" or "aliens" unusual opponents or were they just one of the mix?

Were most opponents human? Even when they may be the "cultists" for non-humans?

What was the most surprising "thing" that a human opponent was working in cahoots with?
=


Most of the time. Hostile people are a hazard of military life and traveling, usually, so hostile encounters were normally wildlife or the hostile non-humans.

No; we rarely encountered 'demons' or 'aliens'; most of the time, it was wildlife, the hostile non-humans, an enemy army or skirmish force, or an opposing political faction, pretty much in that order. Other-planar beings were usually more on the order of SNS, with Phil. We'd also occasionally run into one of the Undying Wizards, but that was a special event as well.

Not really; it changed over time as the campaign evolved over the better part of fifteen years. We first had a lot of run-ins with underworld creatures, then the hostile non-humans, and then the political parties; later, when we all went off the the wars, it became more organized and from the human armies. It all depended, really, on what story arcs Phil had in mind, and then what he might roll if he was looking at using the encounter tables.

The Hokun.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 03, 2015, 02:31:50 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;852497
...do you know if he was planning to build a full-size manequin and use him as a GM screen.

I'm sorry; I messed up, last night, and didn't answer this for you.

No, the guy insisted that he had to know the colors of Dave Arneson's plaid shirt so he could get one for himself, and then wear it while he was running his games "so that he could get it right."

I pointed out that Dave's play style had nothing to do with what he wore while gaming, and the guy was incensed about this; he insisted that a reallly serious gamer would get everything right, including the proper attire for the GM.

"Well, ok," I said, "but that's not was important to Dave's play style. You should look at his interests in reading and films, as that would give you a better handle on what he was thinking..."

Not an acceptable answer, I was told, and that was the last of that conversation.

Again, sorry about missing this last night... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Ravenswing on September 03, 2015, 04:44:58 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;852724
Your typical D&D world is late 19th century England dressed up for a costume ball; it's about as "medieval" as the Beefeaters at today's Tower of London.  Running your clans like a bunch of families of feudal nobility will not be far off the mark, and it will be as alien to your players as can be.
Yeah, absolutely.  Read through accounts of the 14th century, and it's rather like Game Of Thrones, only not nearly as warm and cuddly.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 03, 2015, 07:12:29 AM
Quote from: Ravenswing;852964
Yeah, absolutely.  Read through accounts of the 14th century, and it's rather like Game Of Thrones, only not nearly as warm and cuddly.
And more sibling, parent, and child murder. Ah...ye good ole days.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 03, 2015, 02:29:07 PM
Quote from: Bren;852995
And more sibling, parent, and child murder. Ah...ye good ole days.


Sigh. They were so much fun, weren't they? :)

Ever have a look at "A Distant Mirror" by Barbara Tuchman?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 03, 2015, 02:39:41 PM
By the by, for whomever posted on Another Forum about my comments on the original PRESTAGS games looking a whole lot like Middle Earth: You might want to pass along the information that the maps I was looking at back in 1974, were the ones I was talking about. Ditto on the counter sets, too.

People played a whole lot faster and looser with IP and copyright back in those days, which was my point. See also Don Wohlheim and the 'unauthorized' paperback editions of "The Hobbit" and LotR, the open scandal about Minifigs UK's figures being produced in the US without permission, some of the army lists in "Hordes of the Things", some of the entries in "Gods, Demigods, and Heroes", 'ents' and 'hobbits', or a game called "Warriors of Mars".

One hopes that folks have gotten a little better about these things, one does. I've got stuff in my files from Ye Olden Dayes that would make your hair curl - if not burn it right off... :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 03, 2015, 02:39:49 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;853077
Sigh. They were so much fun, weren't they? :)

Ever have a look at "A Distant Mirror" by Barbara Tuchman?
Great book. I still remember the de Coucy family. The lordship was bought by the Valois in 1400 so every now and then the Coucy name pops up in my research for 1620s France.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 03, 2015, 11:15:32 PM
Quote from: Bren;853082
Great book. I still remember the de Coucy family. The lordship was bought by the Valois in 1400 so every now and then the Coucy name pops up in my research for 1620s France.


In one wargame campaign my leader was Enguerrand VIII de Coucy.

Roi ne suis,
Ne prince ne duc ne comte aussi.
Je suis le sire de Coucy.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 03, 2015, 11:48:43 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;853081
By the by, for whomever posted on Another Forum about my comments on the original PRESTAGS games looking a whole lot like Middle Earth: You might want to pass along the information that the maps I was looking at back in 1974, were the ones I was talking about. Ditto on the counter sets, too.

People played a whole lot faster and looser with IP and copyright back in those days, which was my point. See also Don Wohlheim and the 'unauthorized' paperback editions of "The Hobbit" and LotR, the open scandal about Minifigs UK's figures being produced in the US without permission, some of the army lists in "Hordes of the Things", some of the entries in "Gods, Demigods, and Heroes", 'ents' and 'hobbits', or a game called "Warriors of Mars".

One hopes that folks have gotten a little better about these things, one does. I've got stuff in my files from Ye Olden Dayes that would make your hair curl - if not burn it right off... :eek:


Much as I'd love to see some of that, let's (all) think about the context first.

Let's set the WAYBAC machine to the mid 1950s.  Lionel Trains is in its glory.  However, they don't pay royalties to any railroads.  In fact, the railroads happily send Lionel paint chips, lettering diagrams, and striping charts so they get it all right.  Because every bright shiny red and silver Lionel "Santa Fe" F-unit is a living, breathing ad for the Santa Fe, and don't you forget it.

And nobody said "Boy Lionel sure is ripping the Santa Fe off and getting rich."  People frankly didn't think like that.

A few years later we get Star Trek fandom.  Though SF fandom and fan fiction had been around for years, Star Trek in the late 60s and early 70s turned the trickle into a deluge.  Every Star Trek con had heaps of mimeoed Star Trek fan fiction magazines for sale, usually for cost plus a dribble extra.  And Gene Roddenberry looked upon it and saw that it was good, because he knew that the only bad publicity is no publicity.

Meanwhile in the wargaming world.  (NB - by "wargaming" I mean "miniatures wargaming" but that's too much to type every time).  The wargaming hobby had, frankly, no money in it.  The fact that Don Lowry wanted to hire Gary Gygax to work for Guidon Games means that Guidon was one of the Movers and Shakers of the World.  Most wargame "companies" were more like Jack Scruby, who used the income from his day job to help keep his wargame magazine and his wargame miniatures line going.  (Sounds familiar, doesn't it...)  This was a hobby of garage manufacturers.  By Rob Kuntz's recollection, which is usually pretty darn good, the first edition of CHAINMAIL was 200 copies.  At $2 each that's a GROSS revenue of $400, BEFORE we pay the printer or give any dealer discounts.  Woo hoo.  Even in 1970 that's not much.

And since wargaming became a hobby instead of a training for military officers, wargamers had been writing rules based on what was handy.

H.G. Wells wrote Little Wars using Britains figures and guns.  And he, nor anyone else, thought about writing for Britians for permission.

Fletcher Pratt wrote a set of naval wargame rules for warship models available at the time, and nobody ever thought about asking the model makers for permission.

When plastic model WWI airplanes became available, Mike Carr wrote "Fight in the Skies," and nobody ever suggested he should have written to Hawk or Monogram or Aurora.

When Roco started making 1/87 size tanks Mike Reese wrote "Tractics" and nobody ever thought he should ask permission of Roco (or Krupp, for that matter.)

So in 1972, Lou Zocchi published the "Star Trek Battle Manual," because the AMT models were available and Star Trek fan fiction was popular.  But we wargamers didn't want to write, or read, stories about Captain Kirk falling in love with Lieutenant Mary Sue.  We wanted to protect the Federation from the perfidious Klingoni menace.

Because, you see, wargame rules are fan fiction for wargamers.

I'll say that again.  Wargame rules are fan fiction for wargamers.

The "Star Trek Battle Manual" is Star Trek fan fiction for wargamers.
TRACTICS is WW2 tank combat fan fiction for wargamers.
Fight in the Skies is WW1 airplane combat fan fiction for wargamers.
And the Uruks, Ents, Balrogs, and Hobbits of the CHAINMAIL fantasy supplement are Tolkien fan fiction for wargamers.
And "Warriors of Mars" is Barsoom fan fiction for wargamers.

To us at the time they looked no different.

And because there was no money in it, these games might have stayed under the radar and unnoticed.  But then along came D&D.

In January 1974 D&D came out.  Sales only 2 years later... 1976... were some $300,000.  This was an explosion.  Not only that, but at Origins 1976 the D&D tournament had 250 entrants -- a full order of magnitude greater than any other game.  When most events had 15 to 20 participants, 250 for one game was phenomenal.  In the 2 1/2 years from launch to Summer 1976, D&D went from unknown to dominating the wargame world.

Naturally, it attracted attention... but not all of it good.  Once D&D began to get known, we know what happened next.

In a way, it's kind of sad; the hobby-driven, fanfic-for-wargamers days were a lot of fun in some ways, and it certainly was a much more innocent time.

I've got a chapter on this in my upcoming book, of course.  I think my ending sentence for that chapter works here too, referring to the aftermath of that Origins and the Burroughs and Tolkien C&D orders:

"The First Age had ended."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 04, 2015, 04:26:47 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;853271
In a way, it's kind of sad; the hobby-driven, fanfic-for-wargamers days were a lot of fun in some ways, and it certainly was a much more innocent time.

I've got a chapter on this in my upcoming book, of course.  I think my ending sentence for that chapter works here too, referring to the aftermath of that Origins and the Burroughs and Tolkien C&D orders:

"The First Age had ended."

I'll hope you won't mind that I snipped your superb post; I agree with you, wholeheartedly.

Once we stopped saying 'the game hobby' and started saying 'the game industry', I think we lost something. I don't know how many times in the past decade I've been approached by people who think there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow - and that the key to getting this pot of gold is what's in my poor old brain. I had one set of 'real friends' who it took me about a grand in legal fees to get rid of, and I'm sure that there will be more in the coming years.

"To Serve The Petal Throne" has become, for an amazing number of 'entrepreneur wannabes', The Holy Grail Of Gaming - if only they could get control of it, they'll make huge piles of money!!! Just sign here, on this piece of paper, and we'll let you know what happens!!! And we'll be happy to take your collections, too!!! We just want to be your very bestest and goodest friend!

There's a reason why we have double-faced deadbolt locks on the doors and an alarm system, and I no longer encourage visitors ever since I became 'a collectable'...

Sigh. Enough of this, if we may; this has gotten depressing. Can we get back to talking about Tekumel, please? Questions from the floor?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 04, 2015, 04:43:43 AM
Had a 'Phil moment', tonight at work; we had a night football game, with something like 42,000 people in the stadium for the game. All these folks have to park somewhere, and a lot of them have really elaborate set-ups for what are called hereabouts 'tailgating' parties.

Originally, this was setting up a grill and having what was more of a picnic off the back of the station wagon. Things have gotten a lot more elaborate, over time; we have a regular who's modified an ambulance with fold-up sides that provide a huge canopy and reveal a huge LCD screen set in the side of the body; there's a generator to provide power for this as well as the lights, fridge, and stove. RV users have done this as well, but the larger body provides space for a shower and bedrooms, creating a hotel in the parking lot.

My personal 'most favorite' is the guy who had a custom-made 'field kitchen' trailer built for him; he has a grill, a sink, and a toaster for the buns as well as a complete short-order grilling set. And all in chromed steel, too!

So, anyway, one of our larger parking lots is about four to five acres in size, and tonight you could not see the asphalt for the tents. I just had to stop and take photos - most all of the tents are in the University's maroon and gold, most of the people are in the same colors in T-shirts and jerseys, and there are lots and lots of flag poles with maroon and gold banners. People were cooking their meals, drinking happily, and there was the drumming and trumpeting from the marching band going on in the background.

I looked at this vast sea of people and tents and noise and aromas, and thought, "Why, there's the Glorious General's legion all set for the night!" And there it was; one of Phil's marvelous word pictures of something we had run into - which you just knew he was taking from life, from his time in Asia.

I knew what he'd say, looking at the incredible scene - he'd try to be casual, roll his eyes, and say "Oh, you Americans!" And I think he'd be amused, looking it all over, and he'd use it the next time you and I and the rest of the group marched up country to do a little smiting for the Tsolyani Imperium, Glorious General... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on September 04, 2015, 05:00:56 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;852720
Somewhere on this very site is a thread talking about Skip Williams saying in as many words that was the design philosophy of 3rd Ed. D&D.  I don't have time to look right now.

...really?
If that was the intention, it was a miserable failure, is all I'm going to say.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;852738
You haven't been to Middle America, have you? :) It's a lot more basic then that; quite a few Americans are unaware that Canada is an independent nation-state.

Point conceded, I've never been to Middle America. That's exactly why I feel uncomfortable either agreeing or disagreeing with your assessment, though: I simply can neither confirm nor deny.

Quote
Um, I get quite a few e-mails from people who do pay attention to what's being said on the Internet, and how they perceive the discussions. It may very well be atypical, but it does happen, at least in my experience.

Well, I admit that surprises me. Most of the players I know simply refuse to invest any time in an Internet discussion. Those that do read stuff on RPG forums are the exception, not the rule.
Of course, my experience is purely empirical, and probably based on too small a sample size. I'll admit that it does happen, obviously. I just don't know many people that do it, but that might be due to selection bias.

Quote
The OSR. are my betters; just ask them. :)

"The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now I am the master."
Something like this:D?

Quote
I'm not sure about the 'generation' in your comment. I personally prefer fewer rules, myself, but that's me. I don't think I can speak for my generation of gamers; besides, most of them are dead.

Well, "generation" was shorter than saying "both you and Gronan, and the other people that started playing with Gygax, Arneson and MARB". It's simply due to the observation that older games did indeed have less rules.
I'm now curious what you'd think of some of the modern ORE games. Here's the shortest free one (http://www.arcdream.com/pdf/starore.pdf) I've found, and it's for Star Wars.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;852952
I'm sorry; I messed up, last night, and didn't answer this for you.

No, the guy insisted that he had to know the colors of Dave Arneson's plaid shirt so he could get one for himself, and then wear it while he was running his games "so that he could get it right."

I pointed out that Dave's play style had nothing to do with what he wore while gaming, and the guy was incensed about this; he insisted that a reallly serious gamer would get everything right, including the proper attire for the GM.

"Well, ok," I said, "but that's not was important to Dave's play style. You should look at his interests in reading and films, as that would give you a better handle on what he was thinking..."

Not an acceptable answer, I was told, and that was the last of that conversation.

Again, sorry about missing this last night... :)

...I'm reminded of a kung-fu story about an obsessive student.
There was a would-be student of kung-fu (yes, kung-fu isn't the right term, and it was cing yi quan to begin with, but let's skip that) who didn't dare to ask his teacher to teach him, so he became his servant instead. Then he proceeded to copy the master's way of moving and practiced that.
At some point the master noticed he's moving too lightly and asked him if he knows kung-fu, and he admitted he doesn't know a single move, but has copied his everyday movements. By all accounts, he was a diligent servant, too.
The master was amazed by his diligence and he got admitted as a student.
In my book, that wasn't a smart move, but he was at least learning how to move. So it was something, at least.

Still, it was a better attempt than attempting to copy another GM's attire. But, well, whatever works for people...or in this case, whatever doesn't work for them, but makes them feel better!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Chivalric on September 04, 2015, 05:28:37 AM
If someone wanted to get into Tekumel, perhaps just to read for interest, or to use as a setting for a game, or to borrow from and be inspired by for a game, where would you advise they start?

This thread has been fascinating for me.

I know you've talked a bit about miniatures.  My own preference has slowly shifted towards 54mm.  Whether it's plastic, home cast or traditional toy soldiers.  I got sucked into Napoleonics and at 54mm getting two armies painted and done is going to take a long time unless I really crank the figure ratio:
SPOILER (Hover over section below to view.)

(http://36.media.tumblr.com/c3877aaf7a0c670eaeb628a31843f2db/tumblr_nhwrqi8YK51sr78y8o1_1280.jpg)


Do you primarily deal with 25mm metals?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 04, 2015, 08:49:11 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;853299

I looked at this vast sea of people and tents and noise and aromas, and thought, "Why, there's the Glorious General's legion all set for the night!" And there it was; one of Phil's marvelous word pictures of something we had run into - which you just knew he was taking from life, from his time in Asia.

I knew what he'd say, looking at the incredible scene - he'd try to be casual, roll his eyes, and say "Oh, you Americans!" And I think he'd be amused, looking it all over, and he'd use it the next time you and I and the rest of the group marched up country to do a little smiting for the Tsolyani Imperium, Glorious General... :)


:D

To quote Asterix and Cleopatra,

"Boom!  Zing!  Tantantara!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 04, 2015, 08:51:08 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;853296
Sigh. Enough of this, if we may; this has gotten depressing. Can we get back to talking about Tekumel, please? Questions from the floor?


Apologies, I certainly didn't intend to depress you.

Here's something that may make you smile... did you know John McEwan is STILL selling Starguard rules and figures?

For that matter, Lou Zocchi is STILL bringing the gypsy caravan to GenCon.

I hope they live to be a thousand.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 04, 2015, 08:52:47 AM
Quote from: NathanIW;853304
If someone wanted to get into Tekumel, perhaps just to read for interest, or to use as a setting for a game, or to borrow from and be inspired by for a game, where would you advise they start?


I think the old TSR "Empire of the Petal Throne" game is available as a legal PDF somewhere.  I'd start with that.

Then read some John Carter, watch "Thief of Baghdad" (either version), read Man of Gold, and go to it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 04, 2015, 02:03:59 PM
Quote from: NathanIW;853304
If someone wanted to get into Tekumel, perhaps just to read for interest, or to use as a setting for a game, or to borrow from and be inspired by for a game, where would you advise they start?

If you would be interested in lurking an EPT game, message me.
I'm trying to pretend it is the 70's again.
Back before the encrustation of setting specifics. :D
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on September 04, 2015, 02:49:35 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;853322
I think the old TSR "Empire of the Petal Throne" game is available as a legal PDF somewhere.  I'd start with that.


I bought my copy from Drivethru;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 04, 2015, 04:08:36 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;853263
In one wargame campaign my leader was Enguerrand VIII de Coucy.

Roi ne suis,
Ne prince ne duc ne comte aussi.
Je suis le sire de Coucy.
They sure were arrogant sons of bitches weren't they? :) What an odd coin-cee-dinc that you happened or chose to get Enguerrand as your leader.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;853321
Here's something that may make you smile... did you know John McEwan is STILL selling Starguard rules and figures?
I have some Star Guard in my collection that I use for Star Wars. The Star Guard are midgets next to the 25mm, but Dreenoi are good for weird alient and the Ralnai ended up as a species I added, because who doesn't like grav-sled riding force-blade wielding reptiles?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 04, 2015, 10:02:55 PM
Religions and temples tend to be hierarchical best I can tell.

How does/did player characters that were "Priests" interact with the temples?
Were they assumed to be "farmed out to the clan"?
More travelling monk than priest?

Did the temple hierarchy effect the ability to "adventure" beside maybe giving reasons to do so?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AxesnOrcs on September 05, 2015, 12:10:13 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;853271

Because, you see, wargame rules are fan fiction for wargamers.

I'll say that again.  Wargame rules are fan fiction for wargamers.

The "Star Trek Battle Manual" is Star Trek fan fiction for wargamers.
TRACTICS is WW2 tank combat fan fiction for wargamers.
Fight in the Skies is WW1 airplane combat fan fiction for wargamers.
And the Uruks, Ents, Balrogs, and Hobbits of the CHAINMAIL fantasy supplement are Tolkien fan fiction for wargamers.
And "Warriors of Mars" is Barsoom fan fiction for wargamers.

To us at the time they looked no different.



All of your post was great. And I need to save this. Thanks.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 05, 2015, 01:50:56 PM
Quote from: Bren;853415
They sure were arrogant sons of bitches weren't they? :) What an odd coin-cee-dinc that you happened or chose to get Enguerrand as your leader.


No coinkydink at all.  :D  The de Coucy line ended with Enguerrand VII, so Enguerrand VIII was a natural choice.

Also, the game started about six months after I read A Distant Mirror for the first time.

I have some Star Guard in my collection that I use for Star Wars. The Star Guard are midgets next to the 25mm, but Dreenoi are good for weird alient and the Ralnai ended up as a species I added, because who doesn't like grav-sled riding force-blade wielding reptiles?[/QUOTE]

Even back in the 70s Mr. McEwan got a lot of flak for his "wimpy" figures.  But he showed the numbers; he based his figures off an average 6 foot tall man shrunk to 1 inch tall.

Ever get any of his fantasy personality figures?  He did some GREAT stuff!  The potbellied knight in chainmail, surcoat, and helm is a classic.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 05, 2015, 02:48:36 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;853635
Even back in the 70s Mr. McEwan got a lot of flak for his "wimpy" figures.  But he showed the numbers; he based his figures off an average 6 foot tall man shrunk to 1 inch tall.

Ever get any of his fantasy personality figures?  He did some GREAT stuff!  The potbellied knight in chainmail, surcoat, and helm is a classic.
I don't have that knight. Wish I did. From quick glance on the web, I recognize his style, but I think the only minis of his that I have are the Star Guard, Ralnai, and Dreenoi.

EDIT: I just noticed he also made the Terran Marines (http://www.miniatures-workshop.com/lostminiswiki/index.php?title=Image:McEwan-StG-FF40b.jpg) that I use as Stormtroopers. Probably the most used group of miniatures in our Star Wars campaigns.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 05, 2015, 04:00:15 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;853300
"The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now I am the master."
Something like this:D?

Well, "generation" was shorter than saying "both you and Gronan, and the other people that started playing with Gygax, Arneson and MARB". It's simply due to the observation that older games did indeed have less rules.
I'm now curious what you'd think of some of the modern ORE games. Here's the shortest free one (http://www.arcdream.com/pdf/starore.pdf) I've found, and it's for Star Wars.

Still, it was a better attempt than attempting to copy another GM's attire. But, well, whatever works for people...or in this case, whatever doesn't work for them, but makes them feel better!

Nope; I wish it had been. What I was told by some of the Big Names in the OSR was that my playing Ye Olde Games "from the bad old days" was a sure sign that I was not a Real Gamer, and having BadWrongFun in my game group. Which I thought was funny, but then these are the people who brought us TARGA.

And for me, what made it even funnier / sadder is that I do not consider myself a 'gamer'; I think of myself as a model builder, and that my games are an excuse to show off what I can do with bits of foam and paint. Think 'Blue Peter' with percentile dice - "Here's one that I made earlier..."

Looked at the game you suggested. "Length" and "width" of the dice is a new on on me, as are "wiggle" dice. From my perspective, it's a nice little game, but the mechanics savor of reinventing the wheel. I generally do the same 'one roll' with a set of percentile dice, and go from there. See also my game videos, on my YouTube channel. I think that in practice, this game would move along smartly, which is something I look for in games; the game session bogging down in mechanics really spoils the fun - which is what we used to call what I think is now called 'immersion', which I think is something else entirely.

Agreed; if it works for you and your gamers, then it's good. I was just reminded by the guy's obsession with Dave's shirt by some of the marital arts people we used to know, who were always asking Gronan what the secret of his success was. H would reply, "Practice for a couple of hours each day for a year", and they would be very upset as it wasn;t the answer they were looking for. "No! No!" they would cry, "Teach me your Secret Blow that stops my opponents in their tracks!!!" Gronan would look baffled, and try again. It never worked, sad to say.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 05, 2015, 04:30:12 PM
Quote from: NathanIW;853304
If someone wanted to get into Tekumel, perhaps just to read for interest, or to use as a setting for a game, or to borrow from and be inspired by for a game, where would you advise they start?

This thread has been fascinating for me.


Ah! Well, here's my thoughts on the subject:

Get a copy of the 1976 EPT. It's Phil's earliest try at an RPG game, and the one least encumbered by later additions and expectations. There's lots of tidbits that will provide lots of fun, and it's pretty easy to play the thing. DriveThruRPG, I think.

If you like popcorn, get a big pile of it and fire up the big screen. I would like to suggest some movies that Phil liked a lot; some are old and obscure, and some relatively new:

"Thief of Baghdad" - both the 1927 and 1940 versions. Phil told me that he'd seen both when they were in the theaters, and had loved them a lot. Quitea  few of the costumes in the 1927 silent (with Douglas Fairbanks, Sr., hurrah!) show up in Phil's drawings - see the Legion of Mirikitani, Hero of Victories, defeat the Mongol Horde! And that gate - must have!!! The later color version is pure Phil at his best - the Temple of the All-Seeing Eye gave it's name to a later Tekumel fanzine. What's not to like? Giant killer spiders, snarky genies, and magical stuff lying all over the place. The actress playing the Princess is the model for Princess Ma'in hi Tlakotani.

"Sign of the Cross" (1932) - Cecil B. DeMille's epic potboiler of Roman times, and where Phil said he got his inspiration for political intrigue and court politics. Me, I think he loved it for Miss Claudette Colbert in the milk bath, myself.

"Cleopatra" (1934) - DeMille and Colbert are back, in yet another epic; Phil was hugely amused at the historical inaccuracies, but loved the look of the film. Miss Colbert is the model for Queen Nayari of the Silken Thighs, by the way, and you'll see why in this movie.

"Sinbad the Sailor" (1947); "The 7th Voyage of Sinbad" (1958); "The Golden Voyage of Sinbad" (1973); "Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger" (1977) - You might want to see these in reverse chronological order, but that's just me; I think the 1947 one is the best, but the later three all feature some of Ray Harryhousen's best work, all of which Phil used on us at various times. (Animated statues - did I mention just how much I hate animated statues?)

When you need to take a break from the big screen, have a read through the Barsoom series by Edgar Rice Burroughs. One of the most poignant things I ever did was hold Phil's well-read and immaculate first edition copy of "A Princess of Mars" that his parents had give him on his eighth birthday. The recent movies might not go amiss too; he vener had the chance to see it; he died the morning my Missus and I  were going out to the theater to see it, and things got a little busy. I think he would have loved it, though; all his dreams come to life...

Phil's own novels are not for the casual reader, I think. He's got a very dry writing style, and some of his protagonists are really dull and boring people. I do suggest reading them, though, for all the detail he throws in. The first one is available, but you'll have to hunt for the others.

Does this help? I can go on for pages, but this is the cream of the crop... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 05, 2015, 04:44:58 PM
Quote from: NathanIW;853304
I know you've talked a bit about miniatures.  My own preference has slowly shifted towards 54mm.  Whether it's plastic, home cast or traditional toy soldiers.  I got sucked into Napoleonics and at 54mm getting two armies painted and done is going to take a long time unless I really crank the figure ratio:
SPOILER (Hover over section below to view.)

(http://36.media.tumblr.com/c3877aaf7a0c670eaeb628a31843f2db/tumblr_nhwrqi8YK51sr78y8o1_1280.jpg)


Do you primarily deal with 25mm metals?


In my games, yes; I started out 'gaming' with 54mm / 1/32 scale figures and vehicles in the early 1970s, which was not a thing for the faint-hearted; you needed a huge room, like a gym or a community center to play in. Scenery was a nightmare, as it was all 1/72 or 1/87 scale. When I discovered Roco Mini-tanks and Airfix figures, life and games got very, very good.

As I think I've mentioned, I don;t think of myself as a 'gamer'; I think of myself as a model builder, and my games are a way to amaze and delight people with my skills. I am told that I do run amazing games, but you'll have to ask the players why - I just build the stuff, as you can see from the photos and videos you can link to vis my signature's links.

I discovered 25mm - now 28mm - figures in the middle to lat 1970s, when they first started coming out. I have, according to my log books, built and painted a little over 64,000 miniatures of all sorts; I currently have about 5,500 figures in my collection, which is way down from my former total of some 32,000 figures. I learned the hard way that to have games that started on time, I had to provide everything - both sides, scenery, terrain, rulers, and rules. Otherwise, you'd sit around the table waiting for hours for the guy who was bringing one army, who'd forgotten to show up...

I was originally introduced to Phil as a painter, and that's how I got involved with Tekumel. Phil needed somebody to paint, and that's what I do. He would hand me a hundred figures, give me a week or two to get them done, and then select the fifty he liked and which he'd keep; I'd get the rest as my 'fee', which is how my Tekumel miniatures collection got started.

'The Custom of the House', in first our original Thursday Night Group and later on in all my campaigns for the next thirty years, was that all of the PCs were represented by figures, on the table for marching orders and fights. We also did big battles, where our leaden alter-egos were the command figures for our troops.

I just love the way a good table looks; see also the photos! I'm especially proud of the urban, ship, and night games; these are hard to stage, but a lot of fun to play.

Loved your cavalry!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Chivalric on September 05, 2015, 04:45:20 PM
Thanks!  I put a bunch of those at the top of the list for next movies to watch.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 05, 2015, 04:48:48 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;853319
:D

To quote Asterix and Cleopatra,

"Boom!  Zing!  Tantantara!"

Please see the attached - I hope that this works!

Phil dod this as a miniature, with a statue of the god Horus on the palanquin.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 05, 2015, 04:52:25 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;853321
Apologies, I certainly didn't intend to depress you.

Here's something that may make you smile... did you know John McEwan is STILL selling Starguard rules and figures?

For that matter, Lou Zocchi is STILL bringing the gypsy caravan to GenCon.

I hope they live to be a thousand.

Oh, hurrah! I wonder what Perfect Mikey did with all my Starguard figures when he went to Chicago?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 05, 2015, 04:56:08 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;853469
Religions and temples tend to be hierarchical best I can tell.

How does/did player characters that were "Priests" interact with the temples?
Were they assumed to be "farmed out to the clan"?
More travelling monk than priest?

Did the temple hierarchy effect the ability to "adventure" beside maybe giving reasons to do so?
=


Yep. You have it. We didn't do a lot with our temples; as long as we sent in our contributions on time, we got our stipends on time. We got a number of heavy-handed hints over the years that we really needed to stay out of the 'priestly business' and stay in 'the adventurer business'. So we did; much less paperwork, that way, and lots and lots of adventures. The temples would find useful things that we could do for them, and keep us supplied; we, in turn, went out and did stuff.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 05, 2015, 05:03:18 PM
Quote from: NathanIW;853668
Thanks!  I put a bunch of those at the top of the list for next movies to watch.


Well, have fun, and let us know how you get on! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 05, 2015, 05:24:40 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;853660
I was just reminded by the guy's obsession with Dave's shirt by some of the marital arts people we used to know, who were always asking Gronan what the secret of his success was. H would reply, "Practice for a couple of hours each day for a year", and they would be very upset as it wasn;t the answer they were looking for. "No! No!" they would cry, "Teach me your Secret Blow that stops my opponents in their tracks!!!" Gronan would look baffled, and try again. It never worked, sad to say.
The idea of the naive neophyte in search of the one secret, unstoppable blow has a long, long history. This is just one of the more recent incarnations.

Quote
Paid for in coin, no doubt a few lessons, properly learnt and applied, would suffice. After all, he only needed an unstoppable flurry of two or three clever thrusts to kill his man, didn't he?

Almades frequently asked himself, when faced with students like this, if these young men truly believed in the existence of such "deadly thrusts" which, once their secrets were mastered, were capable of guaranteeing success without any need for fencing talent. And even if there were such a thing, did they imagine this mysterious knowledge could be had for a mere fistful of pistoles? But it was highly likely that this student, terrified by the prospect of risking his life, sword in hand, would want to believe it to be true.

Just read this recently in Pierre Pevel's book, The Cardinal's Blades.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Chivalric on September 05, 2015, 05:31:47 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;853667
In my games, yes; I started out 'gaming' with 54mm / 1/32 scale figures and vehicles in the early 1970s, which was not a thing for the faint-hearted; you needed a huge room, like a gym or a community center to play in.

Every month some friends and I rent a multipurpose room in an apartment building.  It's got loads of collapsible tables.

I have to scratch build all my own 1/32 scenery.  I also do Sumerians in 1/72 and terrain for that can be very easy.  I also do Roman skirmishes near Dura-Europos in the 3rd century and that's in 28mm.  And then I do WW2 eastern front in 15mm.  So I'm always thinking of ways I can make terrain that can function in multiple scales and places.

Quote
I discovered 25mm - now 28mm - figures in the middle to lat 1970s, when they first started coming out. I have, according to my log books, built and painted a little over 64,000 miniatures of all sorts; I currently have about 5,500 figures in my collection, which is way down from my former total of some 32,000 figures.

That's a large collection.  People often wonder why I'm into miniatures given that I'm not, at all, a collector.  If a year goes by and I don't use something I sell it or otherwise get rid of it.  For miniatures I find that my painted figures easily cover all my new purchases.  I regularly play with my Napoleonics, Romans/Sassanids, WW2 soviets/Germans so they've never gone.

Another silly thing I do is build scratch built star trek ships out of buttons and bingo chips and other scavenged things:

SPOILER (Hover over section below to view.)

(http://i.imgur.com/W2aZ3ch.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/6RVy7HC.jpg)

Terrain is really easy :D

Quote
I learned the hard way that to have games that started on time, I had to provide everything - both sides, scenery, terrain, rulers, and rules. Otherwise, you'd sit around the table waiting for hours for the guy who was bringing one army, who'd forgotten to show up...

I too always make both sides and all the terrain and figure out the rules and then just host games or run them at events.  I know lots and lots of people really like these commercial miniature gaming systems where they build one army and then rely on other local people (often who they haven't even met yet but just assume are out there) to build one and then use the rules supplied by the manufacturer but I always thought it was very strange to make whether or not a game happens contingent on someone else.  Or choose to miss out on painting something you like because you're worried no one else will supply the opposing force.

Quote
Loved your cavalry!!! :)

Thanks.  As you can see I like to block paint the main colours and then do black lines to add contrast.  It's fast and I really enjoy finishing figures and always having something different on the painting table.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 05, 2015, 05:43:33 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;853667
I was originally introduced to Phil as a painter, and that's how I got involved with Tekumel. Phil needed somebody to paint, and that's what I do. He would hand me a hundred figures, give me a week or two to get them done, and then select the fifty he liked and which he'd keep; I'd get the rest as my 'fee', which is how my Tekumel miniatures collection got started.
Wow! What a sweet deal...for Phil. I've never had the time or energy to paint all my minis. I'd love to know someone who would do that.

Quote
'The Custom of the House', in first our original Thursday Night Group and later on in all my campaigns for the next thirty years, was that all of the PCs were represented by figures, on the table for marching orders and fights. We also did big battles, where our leaden alter-egos were the command figures for our troops.
I much prefer that myself. It's hard sometimes to do in Call of Cthulhu as my collection is ~ 120 figures for that period. Impossible for 1620s Europe as I have no collection for that period. Pretty easy to do for Star Wars where I have a pretty good size collection (~ 250 figures) and where I spent some effort to get figures that exactly matched the three major PCs in our game. Custom building the Coynite complete with uncut hair was the most actual modeling work. And even easier for fantasy RPGs which has the bulk of my figures. Not sure quite how many of those there are maybe 400 painted, about that many unpainted, and about that many unpainted Airfix-like plastic figures. Nothing like the enormity of your collection. Clearly yours is bigger. ;)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;853669
Please see the attached - I hope that this works!
TANTANTARA!!! (It worked.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 05, 2015, 06:46:31 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;853669
Please see the attached - I hope that this works!

Phil dod this as a miniature, with a statue of the god Horus on the palanquin.


Heh!  That is indeed the exact panel I was thinking of!  Congratulations, I couldn't find an image.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 05, 2015, 08:36:38 PM
Quote from: NathanIW;853683

That's a large collection.  People often wonder why I'm into miniatures given that I'm not, at all, a collector.  If a year goes by and I don't use something I sell it or otherwise get rid of it.  For miniatures I find that my painted figures easily cover all my new purchases.  I regularly play with my Napoleonics, Romans/Sassanids, WW2 soviets/Germans so they've never gone.

Thanks.  As you can see I like to block paint the main colours and then do black lines to add contrast.  It's fast and I really enjoy finishing figures and always having something different on the painting table.


I'm not a 'collector' either; I play what I like, and I paint what I play and like. I've just been at this for something like four decades, so there's a lot of stuff in the game room.

Phil used to do his figures the same way; 'block paint' them, then outline everything with a .005 mm 'tech pen'.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 05, 2015, 08:38:09 PM
Quote from: Bren;853685
Wow! What a sweet deal...for Phil. I've never had the time or energy to paint all my minis. I'd love to know someone who would do that.

I much prefer that myself. It's hard sometimes to do in Call of Cthulhu as my collection is ~ 120 figures for that period. Impossible for 1620s Europe as I have no collection for that period. Pretty easy to do for Star Wars where I have a pretty good size collection (~ 250 figures) and where I spent some effort to get figures that exactly matched the three major PCs in our game. Custom building the Coynite complete with uncut hair was the most actual modeling work. And even easier for fantasy RPGs which has the bulk of my figures. Not sure quite how many of those there are maybe 400 painted, about that many unpainted, and about that many unpainted Airfix-like plastic figures. Nothing like the enormity of your collection. Clearly yours is bigger. ;)

TANTANTARA!!! (It worked.)


It worked for us, for many years.

Yep; same here. The only reason I have so many figures is the length oof time I've been at this... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 05, 2015, 08:40:32 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;853699
Heh!  That is indeed the exact panel I was thinking of!  Congratulations, I couldn't find an image.

The mark of the truly good staff officer is to be able to divine the intentions of his commander, and then to have the needed information or resources to hand when the commander requires them.

I've had this panel's image on file for about a month now, Glorious General, figuring that it might just be needed... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 05, 2015, 09:59:54 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;853746
The mary of the truly good staff officer is to be able to divine the intentions of his commander, and then to have the needed information or resources to hand when the commander requires them.

I've had this panel's image on file for about a month now, Glorious General, figuring that it might just be needed... :)


:D :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 05, 2015, 10:01:17 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;853745
It worked for us, for many years.

Yep; same here. The only reason I have so many figures is the length oof time I've been at this... :)


Sort of like spend pocket money on a freight car a month, and forty years later you could open your own hobby shop...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 05, 2015, 10:05:15 PM
Quote from: NathanIW;853683
Another silly thing I do is build scratch built star trek ships out of buttons and bingo chips and other scavenged things:
Those are cool. I'd have loved those for our Star Trek game. Though you’d need some Klingons, Orions, and Romulans for the other sides.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;853745
Yep; same here. The only reason I have so many figures is the length oof time I've been at this... :)
No that's not it. I've been painting since say, 1977. I haven't painted anything new in the last 10 or 12  years. So call that 25 years. I have about 1600 minis counting metal and plastic, painted and unpainted. That’s 64 minis per year. You have 5000, down from 32000, down from 64000 painted total. Even if we just focus on your pared down, painted collection it would take you over 78 years to accumulate 5000 painted minis. So it isn’t just the length of time, it is also the rate of acquisition and painting. And from what you’ve said, I know you paint much faster than I ever did.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 05, 2015, 11:44:22 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;853784
:D :D

And this was the same thing we did in Phil's campaign; Phil would throw some Dire Peril at us, and we'd think out way out of it because we'd thought about the possible situations in advance and had a 'drill' for dealing with the crisis.

Phil: "Hah! Your legion is suffering from an outbreak of dysentery!"
Gronan: "Oh, really; here, let me see the report, there, Professor. Chirine?"
Chirine: "Here you are, Glorious General! As per your orders, the latrines were all dug well away from the water supply, and they're working fine."
Phil, disgusted: "Fine. Be that way. You get attacked by bandits in the middle of the night."

And so on, and so on, and so on... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 05, 2015, 11:45:19 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;853785
Sort of like spend pocket money on a freight car a month, and forty years later you could open your own hobby shop...


Yep. And a bunch of helpful guys in Wakefield didn't hurt, either... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 05, 2015, 11:50:25 PM
Quote from: Bren;853786
Those are cool. I'd have loved those for our Star Trek game. Though you’d need some Klingons, Orions, and Romulans for the other sides.

No that's not it. I've been painting since say, 1977. I haven't painted anything new in the last 10 or 12  years. So call that 25 years. I have about 1600 minis counting metal and plastic, painted and unpainted. That’s 64 minis per year. You have 5000, down from 32000, down from 64000 painted total. Even if we just focus on your pared down, painted collection it would take you over 78 years to accumulate 5000 painted minis. So it isn’t just the length of time, it is also the rate of acquisition and painting. And from what you’ve said, I know you paint much faster than I ever did.


Oh! Good point! I never really thought of it that way, but I think you're onto something here. I tend to paint in units, like the 80 RP 'Chaos pikemen' that I use for my Legion, or the similar number of old plastic elves that I added the right shields to to make the Glorious General's happy crew. It goes a lot faster that way, especially with acrylic paints; the first color is dry on the first figure about the time I finish putting it on the last one of the batch. Mass production, I think that's my particular way of doing it.

Individual 'personality' figures do take longer, usually about an hour each to assemble and prep, and then about two hours to paint. I do these in batches too, so it doesn't really take all that long to put things together for a game.

Practice, I think; I just do it a lot, and so I tend not to think a lot about the process; I just do it... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 05, 2015, 11:52:03 PM
Is there any interest here on how I do figures for RPGs, or is that a different department of the site? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 05, 2015, 11:53:04 PM
Chirine would bring a mess of figures to Phil's and sit there and paint like a fiend as we gamed.  At the end of a 4 or 5 hour game session it was amazing how much he'd painted.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AxesnOrcs on September 05, 2015, 11:57:40 PM
I think that would be cool.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 06, 2015, 12:03:21 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;853796
And this was the same thing we did in Phil's campaign; Phil would throw some Dire Peril at us, and we'd think out way out of it because we'd thought about the possible situations in advance and had a 'drill' for dealing with the crisis.

Phil: "Hah! Your legion is suffering from an outbreak of dysentery!"
Gronan: "Oh, really; here, let me see the report, there, Professor. Chirine?"
Chirine: "Here you are, Glorious General! As per your orders, the latrines were all dug well away from the water supply, and they're working fine."
Phil, disgusted: "Fine. Be that way. You get attacked by bandits in the middle of the night."

And so on, and so on, and so on... :)


Remember when we were escorting Vrisa and her hubby and Origo and a few others who happened to be travelling north towards Milumanaya with the Legion and we saw an old ruin, and Phil did everything but put up billboards with flashing signs saying "Player Characters Go Here?"

(For the rest of you, the non-military PCs went into the Underworld and had their adventure, and Chirine and I calculated that if they went down about the time the front of the Legion passed the entry, they were back out before the rear guard of the Legion had finished passing the entrance.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 06, 2015, 12:10:41 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;853800
Is there any interest here on how I do figures for RPGs, or is that a different department of the site? :)
Yes. And search me.

Though I would suggest starting a new thread so people who are interested in painting and modeling don't necessarily have to wade through all the other posts.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 06, 2015, 12:15:51 AM
This is fun, but I gotta go get some sleep.

WHOOT!  WHOOT!

Time to go home and go to bed
Time to go home and go to bed
Time to go home and go to bed
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 06, 2015, 09:27:30 AM
I have read that Magic Users are a treasured resource, closely guarded and hoarded by the clans and temples.

Was this something that can up in play or is it something that was appended later?

If in play, how and what impact did it have?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 06, 2015, 03:45:50 PM
The way Phil usually did it was to intimate that Temple mages had knowledge and powers not available to common garden variety users of extraplanar powers.  If we'd tried any serious shit with the temples it might have been more of an issue.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 06, 2015, 09:33:54 PM
Quote from: AxesnOrcs;853802
I think that would be cool.


I'll see what I can do...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 06, 2015, 09:41:14 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;853803
Remember when we were escorting Vrisa and her hubby and Origo and a few others who happened to be travelling north towards Milumanaya with the Legion and we saw an old ruin, and Phil did everything but put up billboards with flashing signs saying "Player Characters Go Here?"

(For the rest of you, the non-military PCs went into the Underworld and had their adventure, and Chirine and I calculated that if they went down about the time the front of the Legion passed the entry, they were back out before the rear guard of the Legion had finished passing the entrance.)


Yeah, that was one of the funnier game session! Phil was already in a cranky mood, as we'd fought off his local tribesmen pretty handily; I'd specified that we were using the same formation that Richard I used at Arsuf, using the Sakbe road instead of the sea to protect our flank; being cagy, I drew up the plans and made sure not to mention Arsuf by name. Phil would have recognized it instantly, being an authority on the period...

So, they came on in the same old way, and the Glorious General beat them in the same old way. Phil was hugely cheesed off, as he got a whole lot of his brand new light infantry killed off for n good reason or result. So, when the ruins showed up on the line of march, Phil almost dared us to take some of our troops in there to get them ambushed; we simply smiled at him indulgently, and told him "That's what the player-characters are for, to have adventures..." and sent them in.

They cleaned out the ruins and busted the ambush, and were back in time for dinner.

Just to keep the pressure on, I smiled sweetly and offered to get one of those brand new model railroad light-up billboards for Phil to have, when ever this kind of thing came up. He knew I'd do it, too, and in Tsolyani... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 06, 2015, 09:41:58 PM
Quote from: Bren;853804
Yes. And search me.

Though I would suggest starting a new thread so people who are interested in painting and modeling don't necessarily have to wade through all the other posts.


Right; gotcha.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 06, 2015, 09:50:43 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;853873
I have read that Magic Users are a treasured resource, closely guarded and hoarded by the clans and temples.

Was this something that can up in play or is it something that was appended later?

If in play, how and what impact did it have?
=


Well, short form, in my experience the really good ones were very treasured; the average ones got sent out on adventures, missions, and quests, and the bad ones got either retrained into other career paths or dead in action.

Both the temples and the legions tended to hoard the experts for emergencies, and use the usual run-of-the mill magic users / lay priests / etc. on all sorts of business that would either see them get better or get dead; if one survived, one got better and better training as a result, as well as access to more and more advanced spells and devices. This also applied to one's connections in the temple or legion, too; if one was a well-connected person, one did not get sent out on 'odd jobs' but got the nicer ones.

Personally, I got a lot of 'odd jobs' at a very high level due to my connections inside the Imperium, which my temple approved of because it got them status and favors - "We'll loan you Chirine to fix your little problem in Malchiaran, if you''ll promote our candidate for the Governorship in Hau'ma...", that kind of thing. As I was a pretty resourceful kind of guy, and a pretty powerful military sorcerer, I tended to get the really 'odd' and really 'dirty' jobs that came along... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 08, 2015, 01:43:04 PM
There is a very explicit encounter with the "The Food of the Suu" in the Man of Gold book.

How often did you encounter the original native flora?

Any good stories of how that went?

The rule book gives details of some of the more hostile fauna but very little on flora.
Is this because it just "funny color" but has little in game effects?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 09, 2015, 02:07:24 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;854593
There is a very explicit encounter with the "The Food of the Suu" in the Man of Gold book.

How often did you encounter the original native flora?

Any good stories of how that went?

The rule book gives details of some of the more hostile fauna but very little on flora.
Is this because it just "funny color" but has little in game effects?
=


And it's a nasty encounter, too.

We generally saw the stuff when we were 'off the beaten path'; we didn't do a lot of 'wilderness adventures' or 'hexcrawls'. It grows like the proverbial weeds, and is only kept down in agricultural areas with a lot of work. We saw the horrible stuff in most of the 'wet' areas, like the swamps south of Jakalla or around cities like Penom or Purdimal. It doesn't grow at all well in dry areas, and we never saw it in the high mountains. Temperate areas, we'd see it in the low-lying wetlands.

You know, I don't think we ever actually got into a patch of the stuff; we tried very, very hard to stay away from it, as we knew how nasty the stuff is. It's very corrosive, and will pretty much wreck anything organic that isn't native to the planet.

There's not much at all in the existing literature about the flora; Phil just wasn't interested in the subject, and about all we ever got from him was that "the stuff is nasty and will kill you". He'd describe swamps as "fetid", because he liked the sound of the word - and our reaction to it! He could describe things like mangrove swamps in lurid detail, because he'd been in them, but beyond the descriptions that kept us from going into the nasty bits he just didn't seem to worry about it.

So, add man-eating plants and suchlike to taste - Phil would.

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 09, 2015, 06:19:02 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;854713
And it's a nasty encounter, too.

We generally saw the stuff when we were 'off the beaten path'; we didn't do a lot of 'wilderness adventures' or 'hexcrawls'. It grows like the proverbial weeds, and is only kept down in agricultural areas with a lot of work. We saw the horrible stuff in most of the 'wet' areas, like the swamps south of Jakalla or around cities like Penom or Purdimal. It doesn't grow at all well in dry areas, and we never saw it in the high mountains. Temperate areas, we'd see it in the low-lying wetlands.

You know, I don't think we ever actually got into a patch of the stuff; we tried very, very hard to stay away from it, as we knew how nasty the stuff is. It's very corrosive, and will pretty much wreck anything organic that isn't native to the planet.

There's not much at all in the existing literature about the flora; Phil just wasn't interested in the subject, and about all we ever got from him was that "the stuff is nasty and will kill you". He'd describe swamps as "fetid", because he liked the sound of the word - and our reaction to it! He could describe things like mangrove swamps in lurid detail, because he'd been in them, but beyond the descriptions that kept us from going into the nasty bits he just didn't seem to worry about it.

So, add man-eating plants and suchlike to taste - Phil would.

Does this help?


Does it grow underground as well?

Thanks,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 09, 2015, 09:45:30 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;854727
Does it grow underground as well?
I'd include it somewhere as the run amok remains of some botanical garden lit by weirdly glowing globes that have continued running unattended for thousands of years...

...or are those globes truly unattended?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 09, 2015, 10:32:08 AM
Quote from: Bren;854766
I'd include it somewhere as the run amok remains of some botanical garden lit by weirdly glowing globes that have continued running unattended for thousands of years...

...or are those globes truly unattended?


Chirine, this one gets it... :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 09, 2015, 10:32:53 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;854713
It doesn't grow at all well in dry areas, and we never saw it in the high mountains.


Okay I take it back, there is ONE good thing about Milumanaya....
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 09, 2015, 11:19:36 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;854727
Does it grow underground as well?

Thanks,

H :0)


Yes, but under artificial lighting. We saw this in the 'gardens' of the palace of Bassa, king of the Black Ssu, in early 1977 when we went there at the behest of Thomar the Wizard.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 09, 2015, 11:23:09 AM
Quote from: Bren;854766
I'd include it somewhere as the run amok remains of some botanical garden lit by weirdly glowing globes that have continued running unattended for thousands of years...

...or are those globes truly unattended?


You have it. And the globe lights also appear as rod-shaped ones, and I've seen them as flattish disks. They are powered by other-planar energy, and do last for what amounts to forever. They have no moving parts inside, and simply stop working if you break them - like Origo did, when he tried to open one. They are not hollow, and we did managed to put him back together.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 09, 2015, 11:23:59 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;854781
Chirine, this one gets it... :D


There will be a short pause as I sigh happily... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 09, 2015, 11:25:28 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;854782
Okay I take it back, there is ONE good thing about Milumanaya....


What? Really?

Oh. Well, now that you mention it, yeah, this is just about the only good thing I can say about the place...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on September 09, 2015, 01:50:36 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;853660
Nope; I wish it had been. What I was told by some of the Big Names in the OSR was that my playing Ye Olde Games "from the bad old days" was a sure sign that I was not a Real Gamer, and having BadWrongFun in my game group. Which I thought was funny, but then these are the people who brought us TARGA.

The target shield had been invented long before them. They just want you to think it was them:D!
(Also, I just had to google Targa, so I can't comment yet. But my reply was a joke on them being Darth Vaders).

Quote
And for me, what made it even funnier / sadder is that I do not consider myself a 'gamer'; I think of myself as a model builder, and that my games are an excuse to show off what I can do with bits of foam and paint. Think 'Blue Peter' with percentile dice - "Here's one that I made earlier..."

I'm kinda surprised.
I mean, I know you put a lot of effort into preparing for games, but I've always thought that you're doing that in order to have models for games, not the other way around.

Quote
Looked at the game you suggested. "Length" and "width" of the dice is a new on on me, as are "wiggle" dice. From my perspective, it's a nice little game, but the mechanics savor of reinventing the wheel. I generally do the same 'one roll' with a set of percentile dice, and go from there. See also my game videos, on my YouTube channel. I think that in practice, this game would move along smartly, which is something I look for in games; the game session bogging down in mechanics really spoils the fun - which is what we used to call what I think is now called 'immersion', which I think is something else entirely.

Well, "height" and "width" are just "quality" and "speed" of the success, so that's understandable - they're supposed to be new if your base is D&D and similar systems.
Not sure what you mean by "reinventing the wheel", though. It does what it sets out to do, and puts a new spin on some things. Is it groundbreakingly different? No. Does everything need to be new in order for the game to be worth playing? Also no, in my experience - though answers might vary on this one:).
(BTW, I used this little booklet, along with some GM-facing stuff from bigger versions of the same system, to run a campaign that lasted a couple years. Well, except I set it in 1674 China. Still, I think those rules are just the right amount for new players, and almost all the players were new to RPGs in this game).

Quote
Agreed; if it works for you and your gamers, then it's good. I was just reminded by the guy's obsession with Dave's shirt by some of the marital arts people we used to know, who were always asking Gronan what the secret of his success was. H would reply, "Practice for a couple of hours each day for a year", and they would be very upset as it wasn;t the answer they were looking for. "No! No!" they would cry, "Teach me your Secret Blow that stops my opponents in their tracks!!!" Gronan would look baffled, and try again. It never worked, sad to say.

Surely they'd understand that the secret blow is "capture the centerline and hold it";)? Of course, in order to achieve this, practicing a couple years would help...
(Yeah, I know, the people that insist on a Secret Blow are among the least likely to "get" this:P. But one could hope Gronan at least tried that approach, too).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;853666

"Cleopatra" (1934) - DeMille and Colbert are back, in yet another epic; Phil was hugely amused at the historical inaccuracies, but loved the look of the film. Miss Colbert is the model for Queen Nayari of the Silken Thighs, by the way, and you'll see why in this movie.

I'll admit, when reading about Queen Nayari, I exclaimed "Cleo!"
Which attracted the curious look of my wife from across the room. Then she realised I'm reading a new system or setting, and didn't even bother asking.

Quote from: Bren;853678
The idea of the naive neophyte in search of the one secret, unstoppable blow has a long, long history. This is just one of the more recent incarnations.


Just read this recently in Pierre Pevel's book, The Cardinal's Blades.

Heh, this is a good one. I prefer the explanation of "secret strikes" in "The teacher of fencing" by Arturo-Perez Reverte, but this one also addresses part of the reason why many people keep looking for the unstoppable strike...
Still, I admit they're almost tied!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;853746
The mark of the truly good staff officer is to be able to divine the intentions of his commander, and then to have the needed information or resources to hand when the commander requires them.

I've had this panel's image on file for about a month now, Glorious General, figuring that it might just be needed...

`
Quote from: chirine ba kal;853796
And this was the same thing we did in Phil's campaign; Phil would throw some Dire Peril at us, and we'd think out way out of it because we'd thought about the possible situations in advance and had a 'drill' for dealing with the crisis.

Phil: "Hah! Your legion is suffering from an outbreak of dysentery!"
Gronan: "Oh, really; here, let me see the report, there, Professor. Chirine?"
Chirine: "Here you are, Glorious General! As per your orders, the latrines were all dug well away from the water supply, and they're working fine."
Phil, disgusted: "Fine. Be that way. You get attacked by bandits in the middle of the night."

And so on, and so on, and so on... :)

Reminds me of the people from our fencing school when they were running Exalted for them. All the Dire Perils were predicted in advance, likely reactions of the enemy were predicted and exploited...
And I'm not even talking about fighting, they were running an intrigue, followed by a trade war:D!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;853803
Remember when we were escorting Vrisa and her hubby and Origo and a few others who happened to be travelling north towards Milumanaya with the Legion and we saw an old ruin, and Phil did everything but put up billboards with flashing signs saying "Player Characters Go Here?"

(For the rest of you, the non-military PCs went into the Underworld and had their adventure, and Chirine and I calculated that if they went down about the time the front of the Legion passed the entry, they were back out before the rear guard of the Legion had finished passing the entrance.)


Quote from: chirine ba kal;854114
Yeah, that was one of the funnier game session! Phil was already in a cranky mood, as we'd fought off his local tribesmen pretty handily; I'd specified that we were using the same formation that Richard I used at Arsuf, using the Sakbe road instead of the sea to protect our flank; being cagy, I drew up the plans and made sure not to mention Arsuf by name. Phil would have recognized it instantly, being an authority on the period...

So, they came on in the same old way, and the Glorious General beat them in the same old way. Phil was hugely cheesed off, as he got a whole lot of his brand new light infantry killed off for n good reason or result. So, when the ruins showed up on the line of march, Phil almost dared us to take some of our troops in there to get them ambushed; we simply smiled at him indulgently, and told him "That's what the player-characters are for, to have adventures..." and sent them in.

They cleaned out the ruins and busted the ambush, and were back in time for dinner.

Just to keep the pressure on, I smiled sweetly and offered to get one of those brand new model railroad light-up billboards for Phil to have, when ever this kind of thing came up. He knew I'd do it, too, and in Tsolyani... :)

:D:D:D
That probably earned you lots of XP!

Quote from: Bren;854766
I'd include it somewhere as the run amok remains of some botanical garden lit by weirdly glowing globes that have continued running unattended for thousands of years...

...or are those globes truly unattended?

Bren, have you been reading my descriptions of the Underworld?
Oh, no, wait, there wasn't a garden, just the globes! Sorry about that.
OTOH, now I know what my Underworld has been missing! I thought of adding the remains of a hi-tech fitness, but not a garden, my bad:D!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;854795
You have it. And the globe lights also appear as rod-shaped ones, and I've seen them as flattish disks. They are powered by other-planar energy, and do last for what amounts to forever. They have no moving parts inside, and simply stop working if you break them - like Origo did, when he tried to open one. They are not hollow, and we did managed to put him back together.

Funny questions time...
Apart from the Eyes, is there anything that can be described as big, glowing orbs with weird powers and inherent intellect?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 09, 2015, 03:39:24 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;854826
Heh, this is a good one. I prefer the explanation of "secret strikes" in "The teacher of fencing" by Arturo-Perez Reverte, but this one also addresses part of the reason why many people keep looking for the unstoppable strike...
Still, I admit they're almost tied!
на английски е The Fencing Master.
But I liked it. I like everything by Perez-Reverte that I have read.
Quote
Bren, have you been reading my descriptions of the Underworld?
Oh, no, wait, there wasn't a garden, just the globes! Sorry about that.
OTOH, now I know what my Underworld has been missing! I thought of adding the remains of a hi-tech fitness, but not a garden, my bad:D!
Gardens in the underworld are important. It gives the prey of the bigger monsters something to eat.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 10, 2015, 01:44:39 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;854826
The target shield had been invented long before them. They just want you to think it was them:D!
(Also, I just had to google Targa, so I can't comment yet. But my reply was a joke on them being Darth Vaders).

I'm kinda surprised.
I mean, I know you put a lot of effort into preparing for games, but I've always thought that you're doing that in order to have models for games, not the other way around.


Well, "height" and "width" are just "quality" and "speed" of the success, so that's understandable - they're supposed to be new if your base is D&D and similar systems.
Not sure what you mean by "reinventing the wheel", though. It does what it sets out to do, and puts a new spin on some things. Is it groundbreakingly different? No. Does everything need to be new in order for the game to be worth playing? Also no, in my experience - though answers might vary on this one:).
(BTW, I used this little booklet, along with some GM-facing stuff from bigger versions of the same system, to run a campaign that lasted a couple years. Well, except I set it in 1674 China. Still, I think those rules are just the right amount for new players, and almost all the players were new to RPGs in this game).

I'll admit, when reading about Queen Nayari, I exclaimed "Cleo!"
Which attracted the curious look of my wife from across the room. Then she realised I'm reading a new system or setting, and didn't even bother asking.

:D:D:D
That probably earned you lots of XP!

Funny questions time...
Apart from the Eyes, is there anything that can be described as big, glowing orbs with weird powers and inherent intellect?


a. TARGA fell apart because - from what I saw, standing on the sidelines - it tried to be 'the gatekeeper' for the RPG hobby. It had a major finger in the pie over the D&D 5e 'consultantgate' fracas, which is why I stayed well away from it. Yes, at least one of the movers and shakers in the organization thought he was Darth Vader.

b. Nope; I do build 'on demand'. but usually the models give me the ideas for the games; I do additional models to suit. The really great thing about being in Phil's campaign was that he was a never-ending source of inspiration and ideas for models - which is why I have so much on the shelves... :)

c. It's a good, solid game, I think, and well worth a look. My comment - and I should have been more clear - was directed at the thought that I've seen this kind of mechanics before, in several miniatures skirmish games, where the focus is on small 'warbands' and for which one tracks their 'XP' in miniatures games. They are a sort of 'cross-genre' type of thing, where RPG elements are blended with 'miniatures' elements to make a game that will tap into the RPG market.

d. That's her!!! :)

e. No, he was just really cranky for about a month.

f. Yes; the AIs that run various things.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 10, 2015, 01:46:11 PM
Quote from: Bren;854862

Gardens in the underworld are important. It gives the prey of the bigger monsters something to eat.


Or, someplace to avoid, like The Garden of the Weeping Snows... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on September 10, 2015, 04:16:33 PM
Quote from: Bren;854862
на английски е The Fencing Master.
But I liked it. I like everything by Perez-Reverte that I have read.
Gardens in the underworld are important. It gives the prey of the bigger monsters something to eat.

Pero en español es "El maestro de esgrima", y un maestro podria ser alguien que sabe como esgrimir, or alguien que puede ensenartelo!

Or in other words, I just translated the title, not bothering to check how it's been published in English. My bad:).

Totally agree with your point on gardens. That's why I said I should have had more of them;).
Quote from: chirine ba kal;855060
a. TARGA fell apart because - from what I saw, standing on the sidelines - it tried to be 'the gatekeeper' for the RPG hobby. It had a major finger in the pie over the D&D 5e 'consultantgate' fracas, which is why I stayed well away from it. Yes, at least one of the movers and shakers in the organization thought he was Darth Vader.

...OK, that's now officially hilarious. Let's leave it at that.

Quote
b. Nope; I do build 'on demand'. but usually the models give me the ideas for the games; I do additional models to suit. The really great thing about being in Phil's campaign was that he was a never-ending source of inspiration and ideas for models - which is why I have so much on the shelves... :)

Heh. If I could do models, I imagine it would be games giving me ideas for models...
I can't, though, so the point is moot.

Quote
c. It's a good, solid game, I think, and well worth a look. My comment - and I should have been more clear - was directed at the thought that I've seen this kind of mechanics before, in several miniatures skirmish games, where the focus is on small 'warbands' and for which one tracks their 'XP' in miniatures games.

Ah, got it. I'm not familiar with said miniature games, so I didn't know it's got similar points with ORE.

Quote
They are a sort of 'cross-genre' type of thing, where RPG elements are blended with 'miniatures' elements to make a game that will tap into the RPG market.

Sounds interesting, but again, unfamiliar.

Quote
d. That's her!!! :)

:D
Quote
e. No, he was just really cranky for about a month.

Then you did a good job;). Though I'm not sure why a GM would be cranky over that. I've come to expect such stuff and enjoy it along with the players.

Quote
f. Yes; the AIs that run various things.

...if I hadn't sent you an Actual Play description, I'd have hesitated to say it, but that's exactly how those look in my campaign as well:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: EOTB on September 10, 2015, 07:06:56 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;855060
a. TARGA fell apart because - from what I saw, standing on the sidelines - it tried to be 'the gatekeeper' for the RPG hobby. It had a major finger in the pie over the D&D 5e 'consultantgate' fracas, which is why I stayed well away from it. Yes, at least one of the movers and shakers in the organization thought he was Darth Vader.

Dude, what are you talking about?  

TARGA fell apart years before 5E launched, and "consultantgate" had nothing at all to do with it - TARGA was dead well, well before that.  TARGA was an organization that started without a mission, and then predictably failed to coalesce afterward when everyone had different priorities.  It didn't try to keep anyone out of anything.  If anything, it split apart because it tried to bring everybody in without any sort of agreement of what the purpose was.

I'm not part of the group of people who commonly term themselves the "OSR" either, as I like the original games and have no need for LotFP-style sims (or correspond/collaborate with their admirers much at all), but I do skim a lot of their online traffic looking for stuff to use, and I've never seen anyone try to keep you out of anything.  (This of course doesn't mean it couldn't exist somewhere.)

Where were you told you and yours weren't welcome to collaborate?  

Before I thought you were just confused as an observer that was unfamiliar with that community, but the bit about observing TARGA from the sidelines during consultantgate is so specific that's hard to fuck up accidentally.  It does make me wonder if you don't keep dropping this anti-OSR bit every few days just to spread negative impressions about them, for whatever reason.  It is something that seems very, very hard for you to get past for someone who claims not to care about it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 11, 2015, 02:17:25 AM
Quote from: EOTB;855113
Dude, what are you talking about?  

TARGA fell apart years before 5E launched, and "consultantgate" had nothing at all to do with it - TARGA was dead well, well before that.  TARGA was an organization that started without a mission, and then predictably failed to coalesce afterward when everyone had different priorities.  It didn't try to keep anyone out of anything.  If anything, it split apart because it tried to bring everybody in without any sort of agreement of what the purpose was.

I'm not part of the group of people who commonly term themselves the "OSR" either, as I like the original games and have no need for LotFP-style sims (or correspond/collaborate with their admirers much at all), but I do skim a lot of their online traffic looking for stuff to use, and I've never seen anyone try to keep you out of anything.  (This of course doesn't mean it couldn't exist somewhere.)

Where were you told you and yours weren't welcome to collaborate?  

Before I thought you were just confused as an observer that was unfamiliar with that community, but the bit about observing TARGA from the sidelines during consultantgate is so specific that's hard to fuck up accidentally.  It does make me wonder if you don't keep dropping this anti-OSR bit every few days just to spread negative impressions about them, for whatever reason.  It is something that seems very, very hard for you to get past for someone who claims not to care about it.

"Dude"? I assume that this is a common form of address; this is my first time being addressed as 'dude', actually. If I may address your points in order:

I am speaking from my own personal experiences with some of the people who formed TARGA, and claimed in their conversations with me that they wanted to make TARGA the 'cutting edge' of the OSR and by extension the RPG hobby. I do agree with you about the lack of focus and different priorities, and that being a major issue in the group.

As for my being given some very negative responses to my occasional posts, there are the private messages from various fora and the e-mails I got over the past five-six years. I got really, really tired of being told that I was some sort of ancient dinosaur, and that I should shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down. (Usually by people who have no idea of just how long I have been in both the hobby and the industry, and who I talk to in both.) I have a lot more sources and information about what goes on 'behind the curtains' then most people think (or are aware of); and some of the people who describe themselves as being part of the OSR tend to get riled up when I mention things that contradict popular beliefs.

As for being negative about the OSR, again, all I can speak to is my own personal experiences; some of the folks who are in the movement are really decent folks who do some great games, and have been very interested in what I've mentioned about the early days of the hobby. Others, some of the self-described 'standard-bearers' of the OSR, have had enormous hissy fits over hearing about my personal experiences with the early authors of in the genre, and their way of practicing their craft as storytellers and GMs; it seems to contradict the mythology that has grown up about RPG gaming over the years.

No, I am not interested in many modern games; I do read a lot of them, and then make my purchases based on what I think my game group might like to play. I have bought some very good 'indie' games, over the years, both in the RPG and miniatures genres; I have tried to stay away from those that just don't seem to 'play well' on the table.

If people ask my opinion, I give it to them, based on what I know and have seen. If people ask me questions, then I try to answer them as best I can, based on the same store of information. If anyone can take something useful away from anything I might have to say, great - have fun, and let us know what happens.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 11, 2015, 02:21:50 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;855088

Heh. If I could do models, I imagine it would be games giving me ideas for models...
I can't, though, so the point is moot.

Then you did a good job;). Though I'm not sure why a GM would be cranky over that. I've come to expect such stuff and enjoy it along with the players.


...if I hadn't sent you an Actual Play description, I'd have hesitated to say it, but that's exactly how those look in my campaign as well:D!


Well, building models is a vile habit; look at where it's gotten me... :)

Phil simply hated to loose, which we all found perfectly understandable; it was so rare for us to completely fox him - at his own game, at his own table, in his own world - that it was one of those moments that one savored. I mean, Dave Arneson could do it on a regular basis as the immortal Captain Harchar, but us mortals? We were happy if it worked once a year... :)

Great minds, and all that! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: EOTB on September 11, 2015, 04:54:13 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;855176
Quote from: EOTB;855113
Dude, what are you talking about?  

TARGA fell apart years before 5E launched, and "consultantgate" had nothing at all to do with it - TARGA was dead well, well before that.  TARGA was an organization that started without a mission, and then predictably failed to coalesce afterward when everyone had different priorities.  It didn't try to keep anyone out of anything.  If anything, it split apart because it tried to bring everybody in without any sort of agreement of what the purpose was.

I'm not part of the group of people who commonly term themselves the "OSR" either, as I like the original games and have no need for LotFP-style sims (or correspond/collaborate with their admirers much at all), but I do skim a lot of their online traffic looking for stuff to use, and I've never seen anyone try to keep you out of anything.  (This of course doesn't mean it couldn't exist somewhere.)

Where were you told you and yours weren't welcome to collaborate?  

Before I thought you were just confused as an observer that was unfamiliar with that community, but the bit about observing TARGA from the sidelines during consultantgate is so specific that's hard to fuck up accidentally.  It does make me wonder if you don't keep dropping this anti-OSR bit every few days just to spread negative impressions about them, for whatever reason.  It is something that seems very, very hard for you to get past for someone who claims not to care about it.


"Dude"? I assume that this is a common form of address; this is my first time being addressed as 'dude', actually. If I may address your points in order:

I am speaking from my own personal experiences with some of the people who formed TARGA, and claimed in their conversations with me that they wanted to make TARGA the 'cutting edge' of the OSR and by extension the RPG hobby. I do agree with you about the lack of focus and different priorities, and that being a major issue in the group.

As for my being given some very negative responses to my occasional posts, there are the private messages from various fora and the e-mails I got over the past five-six years. I got really, really tired of being told that I was some sort of ancient dinosaur, and that I should shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down. (Usually by people who have no idea of just how long I have been in both the hobby and the industry, and who I talk to in both.) I have a lot more sources and information about what goes on 'behind the curtains' then most people think (or are aware of); and some of the people who describe themselves as being part of the OSR tend to get riled up when I mention things that contradict popular beliefs.

As for being negative about the OSR, again, all I can speak to is my own personal experiences; some of the folks who are in the movement are really decent folks who do some great games, and have been very interested in what I've mentioned about the early days of the hobby. Others, some of the self-described 'standard-bearers' of the OSR, have had enormous hissy fits over hearing about my personal experiences with the early authors of in the genre, and their way of practicing their craft as storytellers and GMs; it seems to contradict the mythology that has grown up about RPG gaming over the years.

No, I am not interested in many modern games; I do read a lot of them, and then make my purchases based on what I think my game group might like to play. I have bought some very good 'indie' games, over the years, both in the RPG and miniatures genres; I have tried to stay away from those that just don't seem to 'play well' on the table.

If people ask my opinion, I give it to them, based on what I know and have seen. If people ask me questions, then I try to answer them as best I can, based on the same store of information. If anyone can take something useful away from anything I might have to say, great - have fun, and let us know what happens.



You know what?  I'm scrapping the post that I was going to write.  I get it.  Phil told stories to you, and now you want to take up the mantle of storyteller to other people.  So you go from place to place on the internet looking for people who want you to tell them stories, and leave - with pretty much the same spiel - any place that doesn't show a certain level of interest.  And I don't want to overly detract from the storytelling, which is rightfully in demand here.

But I notice in your response that you avoided the strange accusation about TARGA and consultantgate, something sure to feed vitriol here, of all places, since it served as the epicenter for consultantgate.  

I ran across an interesting tidbit while I was googling "chirine ba kal" and "dinosaur", trying to find where people were taunting you so severely regarding your supposed obsolescence.

Consultantgate was after 5E's release at Gencon 2014 - the accusations erupted in roughly Aug/Sept, if I remember correctly.  And yet in June 2014 you were commenting (http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2014/06/remember-targa.html) to another historical, "let's remember" sort of blog post discussing the death of TARGA (already years old at that point):  

Quote
Chirine ba Kal June 28, 2014 at 5:20 AM
Sigh. I watched all this happen from the vantage point of my little corner of the Internet, and it was pretty depressing to see. My impression, as a non-OSR person (I am not connected with the OSR; some of their stalwarts told me so. I am a old geezer of a dinosaur, trapped in the amber of the 1970s, and play a 'pre-edition' style of game that doesn't seem to meet the criteria and standards of the brand. Whatever that is.), is that some folks got their knickers in a twist over some other folks who weren't 'acceptable', and had some very public and ultimately pointless agonies over the 'issues'.

I do have to hand it to them, though; they killed any interest in so-called 'OSR gaming' for me.

Shrug.


Here, the dislike of the OSR apparently has nothing to do with consultantgate (which hadn't happened yet).

Anyway...my point is that passive aggressively shitting on an entire community of folks isn't necessary to tell funny stories about Tekumel.  And your apparent policy of refusing to name names but still shitting on entire groups of people through a label because of "private messages" and "emails" isn't better in that regard - you're not protecting anyone; instead you're condemning everyone, relying on *at best* a faulty memory, and at worst whatever rationale you think will create the strongest negative association in the listener.

So why not stick to telling stories?  The good Tekumel ones?  Hearing nameless faceless swipes at other people as side commentary doesn't enhance those stories in my mind.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 11, 2015, 11:48:48 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;855061
Or, someplace to avoid, like The Garden of the Weeping Snows... :)
Story? I mean really, you just drop that in there and leave it. 

Quote from: chirine ba kal;855060
e. No, he was just really cranky for about a month.
Well it sounds like you got an experience to me. ;)

Quote from: AsenRG;855088
Pero en español es "El maestro de esgrima", y un maestro podria ser alguien que sabe como esgrimir, or alguien que puede ensenartelo!

Or in other words, I just translated the title, not bothering to check how it's been published in English. My bad:).
Not a problem. I thought you might want the English version just because you seem interested in stuff like words. When discussing an expert in certain fields, especially archaic ones, maestro, maestre, master all have pretty similar meanings. So Master in English. “Master” can be a tricky word to use because, especially in American English, there is another meaning to master that has nothing to do with expertise in an endeavor or field of study, but everything to do with slavery and its aftereffects.

Quote from: EOTB;855188
You know what?  I'm scrapping the post that I was going to write.  I get it.
I get it. You are a telepathic Internet psychologist. And you want to share your abilities with us. But you know what, you don't need to engage in telepathic analysis to disagree with someone. You can just state your point of disagreement, point out the contradictions in their argument or any factual inaccuracies, and provide your sources without your dime store psychology.

Me, I’m here for the stories. Do you have any interesting stories?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 11, 2015, 01:17:51 PM
Stories are good.
Stories from Actual Play of EPT are even better.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 11, 2015, 01:28:36 PM
Were there a lot of ultra-tech available?
Not just left overs from the Elder days but also stuff that the resident (hostile) aliens may have created.

I'm thinking of adding Hlyss Gates that are matched teleport portals that the poles of look like something extruded by a giant insect and glued together.

Would these be out of place or just another of many strange things encountered?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 11, 2015, 01:45:03 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;855246
Stories are good.
Stories from Actual Play of EPT are even better.
=
I can't recall much from the EPT games in the 1970s so I got nuthin' there.

I was a player in a con session run by Sandy Petersen with RQTekumel. We were in the underworld somewhere fighting some kind of monster. My character was badly wounded...only it wasn't described as badly wounded...it was "the monster reaches over, plucks out your eye, stares at it for a moment, then eats it." :jaw-dropping: I don't remember what else went on in that session, but I sure as hell remember that. I wish I could remember what monster that was. Is there one that is particularly found of eating real eyes?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Chgowiz on September 11, 2015, 03:19:18 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;855060
a. TARGA fell apart because - from what I saw, standing on the sidelines - it tried to be 'the gatekeeper' for the RPG hobby. It had a major finger in the pie over the D&D 5e 'consultantgate' fracas, which is why I stayed well away from it. Yes, at least one of the movers and shakers in the organization thought he was Darth Vader.

Hi Chirine. It's Michael/Chgowiz - from the GaryCon game and we've talked since then.

I'd like to share with you what happened to TARGA, at least from my viewpoint. I was heavily involved with TARGA, and I was the guy who tried to organize the fundraiser for the Gary Gygax statue. This was very personal to me, as I like to fundraise, and at the time of TARGA's ... well, it didn't implode as much as whither away, in large part (in my personal opinion) thanks to scottsz and his "Old School Rant" blog.

Here's what I had to say to Tenkar when he repeated the story that was incorrect...

http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2014/06/remember-targa.html

Quote
Michael SJune 24, 2014 at 11:10 AM
There were two things involved in the TARGA dust-up, and since my name and a couple of misunderstandings are being bandied about, let me tell you what happened from my perspective.

TL;DR version:
TARGA was a confused mess, but I worked with it, in a blind faith that we could have nice things. TARGA was unfairly put into the position of being the OSR police when a fuckwad blogger got his panties in a bunch over Zak's (new at the time) blog. I felt kicked in the nuts by the nerd-waaah-brigade and left TARGA, because of what I was seeing as opposed to what I wanted - to just have fun playing games. I could have cared less about Zak. I still could care less about Zak. scottsz (Old School Rant) is a piece of shit.

--------------
The long version, Part 1:

Going back to 2009 (and you can go follow along in the TARGA blog for this), TARGA was set up by some folks with the purpose of... well, that was the big first issue, what the fuck was TARGA supposed to do? Originally, I think Victor Raymond had set it up to promote "International Traditional Gaming Week" and various bloggerati got involved. With the increase in interest in old school gaming, it morphed into this "thing" that some folks thought was the spokesperson of the so-called "OSR", some folks thought it should be something else. A cluster-fuck of committee-think. There were a number of emails, even phone meetings between myself, Jamal, Victor Raymond, Rients, ahhh... I think Raggi was there, but I honestly don't remember.

What I do remember is the sheer frustration. All I wanted TARGA to be was just another way to get people to sit down and play games. Some of the more publishing-related folks, Jamal for sure, and I think Raggi, now that I am writing this and remembering, wanted it more about publishing. The conversation got hung up on "what is old school" and various related bullshit, but in the end, a few of us, myself included, got a rough mission statement hammered out: http://traditionalgaming.wordpress.com/2009/09/14/targa-reboots-with-new-focus-you/ Put asses in chairs was the way I phrased it, but we said "put butts in chairs to play games." (YDIS folks, please insert homophobic comments here. C'mon, you know you want to.)

I became the cheerleader and kept the TARGA blog and news going, with a couple of others, but everyone was pretty much doing their own shit. Some people still tried to make TARGA into the old school police, but I ignored it, I didn't give a flying fucking rats-ass, as long as you were playing and it was roughly not 3e+, I welcomed it. I can't speak for the other TARGA guys. It was still an unorganized mess.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Chgowiz on September 11, 2015, 03:23:02 PM
Here's part two:
http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2014/06/remember-targa.html

Quote
Michael SJune 24, 2014 at 11:11 AM
Part 2

Then came the fucking fundraiser.

http://traditionalgaming.wordpress.com/2010/01/18/international-traditional-gaming-week-2010-and-pledge-an-auction-2010/ lays it out. Gail Gygax wanted to make a statue of Gary Gygax and so we were going to raise money by selling old school games and donate it. I ran ebay auctions, organized the shipping of items to me, and to the winners. I pretty much did it all myself, not giving other guys grief, just setting this up so you know my perspective. I carried the ball, gladly, and we raised $500. I was really damn proud of that, and I went to GaryCon to help give the check to the Gygax family.

That's when scottsz showed up with the precursor to YDIS - Old School Rant. He had been doing snarky/funny posts until he decided he didn't like Zak's new blog and he didn't like that TARGA had linked to Zak's blog. (http://traditionalgaming.wordpress.com/2010/03/20/this-week-in-the-osr-saturday-march-20-2010/)

That GaryCon weekend, when he posted some screed on his blog and rallied the nerd-waaaah-brigade over Zak, I was all happy that we had raised $500. I was pretty goddamned proud of that fact, that people had come together and raised some cash for what seemed like an innocent, but decent cause. I came home to a shitstorm of posts, counterposts, and all sorts of stupid-ass drama. All the good we had done was lost in the really fucking stupid, petty furor over one pissant piece of shit being all up in arms over some artist-type who worked porn and was doing video podcasting over gaming. Big. Fucking. Deal. (I still wouldn't piss on scottsz if he was on fire.)

So it got nasty and ugly and suddenly TARGA was put into the position of being - WRONGLY - told to take sides. WTF? It wasn't like we were saying that we should have CARCOSA-esque real life rituals, it was a FUCKING BLOG. Why the fuck should TARGA take a stand? It felt like nobody gave a shit about "putting asses in chairs" or fundraising or the hard work, all they wanted to was nerd-waaah-rage and to take sides.

One of the ways my Aspergers (and yes, YDIS folks, I'm diagnosed. Have fun with that.) manifests itself is through an extreme view of right/wrong, black/white and when I perceive injustice. This pissed me off to no end and it was the blinders coming off my eyes. I'd just given a speech in August when accepted the Swords & Wizardry ENNIE (on behalf of Matt Finch & Co.) about hobbyist DIY'ers having a voice... and our voice was a bunch of crying. Over a blog. I'd been involved in what I thought was some cool stuff, writing and playing games and meeting people and just having fun... and it was lost for a bunch of crying. Over a blog.

So, I took my ball and went home. After awhile, my Aspie calmed down, I got my act together and started playing and blogging again, but my blinders were off. I started seeing ugly sides of RPG and OSR publishing. I started seeing some shit that just didn't match with what I wanted - just to play games. Put asses in chairs and have some fun. So, eventually, life happened, and I left. I still call it the "so-called OSR."

TARGA died and long live TARGA. I think if more folks had just cared about putting asses in chairs and not being the outrage-nerdrage police that seems to rear itself every so often, it would have been more fun and not ended the way it did.

Now you might have knowledge of "Darth Vaders" but I was there for those phone calls and let me tell you four things:

1. Nobody could fucking agree on anything except that it was a good idea to "put asses in chairs to play games"
2. Nobody wanted to be the cops or arbiters of what was/wasn't old school. It was leaning towards a "you'll know it when you see it" deal.
3. TARGA was not going to go anywhere unless it was about organizing games. Which, twice for a self-proclaimed "International Traditional Gaming Day", it was.
4. If you know "more", please feel free to share, because I'm sure there was shit going on that I don't know about.

I think if TARGA had been more about just playing games, which is where I was hoping it would go, and less about publishers, and had been a grassroots thing, it might have worked.

No, you know what? Strike that, fuck that. We don't need an organization, we just need people to shut the fuck up and play games. Have some damn fun.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 11, 2015, 04:22:34 PM
Quote from: Bren;855256
I can't recall much from the EPT games in the 1970s so I got nuthin' there.

I was a player in a con session run by Sandy Petersen with RQTekumel. We were in the underworld somewhere fighting some kind of monster. My character was badly wounded...only it wasn't described as badly wounded...it was "the monster reaches over, plucks out your eye, stares at it for a moment, then eats it." :jaw-dropping: I don't remember what else went on in that session, but I sure as hell remember that. I wish I could remember what monster that was. Is there one that is particularly found of eating real eyes?


Thunru'u, "The Eater of Eyes".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on September 11, 2015, 05:30:04 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;855177
Well, building models is a vile habit; look at where it's gotten me... :)

Yes, I see. I'd have simply no space to hold a collection like yours:).

Quote
Phil simply hated to loose, which we all found perfectly understandable; it was so rare for us to completely fox him - at his own game, at his own table, in his own world - that it was one of those moments that one savored. I mean, Dave Arneson could do it on a regular basis as the immortal Captain Harchar, but us mortals? We were happy if it worked once a year... :)

Well, I guess I simply have different criteria for "losing";).

Quote
Great minds, and all that! :)

Obviously!

Quote from: Bren;855231

Not a problem. I thought you might want the English version just because you seem interested in stuff like words.

You know my interests well enough.

Quote
When discussing an expert in certain fields, especially archaic ones, maestro, maestre, master all have pretty similar meanings. So Master in English. “Master” can be a tricky word to use because, especially in American English, there is another meaning to master that has nothing to do with expertise in an endeavor or field of study, but everything to do with slavery and its aftereffects.
Yeah, I hear that last is the default meaning on BDSM sites...:D
Still, in Spanish, just like in English, it's got mainly those two meanings. The last one is a bit unusual (though one might argue that one learning a trade would have this meaning in mind as well, as in some ages, the Master could punish him quite severely).
Also, I should have checked the English title.

Quote
I get it. You are a telepathic Internet psychologist. And you want to share your abilities with us. But you know what, you don't need to engage in telepathic analysis to disagree with someone. You can just state your point of disagreement, point out the contradictions in their argument or any factual inaccuracies, and provide your sources without your dime store psychology.

That's certainly one way to be looking at it.

Quote
Me, I’m here for the stories. Do you have any interesting stories?

Well, my PCs were exploring Tekumel, and came across a place where the people of a long-lost age have been practicing P.E. to keep in shape.
Now, I extrapolated. But there were Eyes there that served to make you relive your last action time and time again.
With them, you could get a whole workout in 30 seconds. The ultimate in couch potatoes training!
I leave it to you to guess what a Livyani clan used this Eye for...:D

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;855289
Thunru'u, "The Eater of Eyes".

It eats Eyes? What a waste:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 13, 2015, 04:56:56 PM
Quote from: EOTB;855188
You know what?  I'm scrapping the post that I was going to write.  I get it.  Phil told stories to you, and now you want to take up the mantle of storyteller to other people.  So you go from place to place on the internet looking for people who want you to tell them stories, and leave - with pretty much the same spiel - any place that doesn't show a certain level of interest.  And I don't want to overly detract from the storytelling, which is rightfully in demand here.

But I notice in your response that you avoided the strange accusation about TARGA and consultantgate, something sure to feed vitriol here, of all places, since it served as the epicenter for consultantgate.  

I ran across an interesting tidbit while I was googling "chirine ba kal" and "dinosaur", trying to find where people were taunting you so severely regarding your supposed obsolescence.

Consultantgate was after 5E's release at Gencon 2014 - the accusations erupted in roughly Aug/Sept, if I remember correctly.  And yet in June 2014 you were commenting (http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2014/06/remember-targa.html) to another historical, "let's remember" sort of blog post discussing the death of TARGA (already years old at that point):  



Here, the dislike of the OSR apparently has nothing to do with consultantgate (which hadn't happened yet).

Anyway...my point is that passive aggressively shitting on an entire community of folks isn't necessary to tell funny stories about Tekumel.  And your apparent policy of refusing to name names but still shitting on entire groups of people through a label because of "private messages" and "emails" isn't better in that regard - you're not protecting anyone; instead you're condemning everyone, relying on *at best* a faulty memory, and at worst whatever rationale you think will create the strongest negative association in the listener.

So why not stick to telling stories?  The good Tekumel ones?  Hearing nameless faceless swipes at other people as side commentary doesn't enhance those stories in my mind.

:)

You might want to widen out your search parameters a bit; I've been saying the same thing about the OSR for quite a while. The original incarnation of my blog had a lot more of this, so you might want to start there.

Regarding 'assuming the mantle', I didn't know that there was one. I'm doing the same thing that Dave Arneson hired me to do at and for Adventure Games, back in 1980, and which I've been doing in a variety of places for a few decades.

If you want stories without side comments, please give us all a list of guidelines for what you consider to be acceptable material; or, if you want, ask the proprietors of this establishment for moderation access and you can become my personal moderator to make sure I don't say anything you find troublesome. Failing that, if you like we can submit any questions people want answered to you, you can forward them to me, I can process them, and you can post the answers after you edit them for anything you don't like.

Another option is that you could simply make me an offer to buy the publication rights to "Tho Serve The Petal Throne"; that way, you can have the stories and the ability to remove any material that you don't like, all in the same bundle. Cash, money orders, and certified checks, please; I don't have the facilities for handling bullion and I don't extend credit to gamers (too many folks with good intentions and empty wallets, sad to say.)

As I commented in a reply to a gent who e-mailed me yesterday, I have been dropping forum accounts over the past two years;  there just wasn't enough traffic to justify my time following them, sorry to have to say. I had been told, about four years ago, that having a big Internet presence would be good for me; I don't think it's really done much for me personally, as there's not a lot of discussion about the things I like. And it does take a lot of my very limited free time - time spent on the Internet is time I am away from my shop, or sleeping, and if there's no interest I have things I need to be doing.

This thread has been, for me personally, quite a lot of fun and well worth the time I spend on it; the people who have taken their time to ask me things have all been quite interesting and intelligent, like the gamers I had at Gary Con last year, and quite unlike what I usually see go past on the web.

Regarding the specific quote you cited, I was commenting on what I had been seeing go by with TARGA and some of it's leading lights' conflicts with Zak S. over "I Hit It With My Axe"; I regard the later fracas over consultantgate as an continuation of that train wreck, as it's mostly the same cast of characters having the same outrage over the same people. 'consultantgate' is also much easier for me to type then the 'long-form' of the original panic over: 'OHMYGODD&DWITHPORNSTARSONTHEWEBRUININGTHEREPUTRATIONOFOURHOBBY!!!'. See also the lovely posts following; this is where I can in, on the whole TARGA stoty.

If it makes you feel better to regard me as an desperate attention whore, please feel free to do so. We aim to please. :)

Regarding my dropping accounts on sites, yes, I do. I look at the Internet on my terms, not yours. If there is nothing on the site that interests me, I don;t get an account. If there is, at that point, I'll get an account and participate in what interests me. If the traffic level goes below a certain point, and also if the site goes dormant for ninety days, I either close or abandon the account. My free time is very limited, due to my work schedule and my wife's health issues, and I have to be very careful where I spend it.

If you feel that's being 'passive-aggressive', and it makes you feel better, please do so; I don't mind.

Regarding my 'faulty memory', I am happy to report that that's the one thing we do have objective evidence for. I am just coming up on the third anniversary of my brain bleed, and my doctors tell me that the only area of my brain that was affected was the 'lizard brain' area at the base of my skull; I am a little more dyslexic then I used to be, and I can't tolerate extremes of temperature very well anymore, but all the tests that they can devise to test the memory areas in my brain all come up very positive; I haven't lost any memory functions at all.

And I also save *everything* for my archives. Papers, photos, phone records, e-mails, audio tapes, and video tapes. People say the stupidest things in front of open microphones. :)

If you don;t like my opinions, don't look at them. They'll only affect your digestion.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 13, 2015, 05:08:51 PM
Quote from: Bren;855231
Story? I mean really, you just drop that in there and leave it. 

Well it sounds like you got an experience to me. ;)


Vol. One, "The Chalice Of The Flame", from "To Serve The Petal Throne". :)

I have a number of stories about the place, all of which are kinda long. Phil loved to get us down there, as Nyelmu was a great (?) way to send us off on quest; most of which were likely to get us killed in various nasty ways. Phil really liked Nyelmu; we all thought that Nyalmu was pretty bizarre, even for an Undying Wizard. More then once, we thought that it might be polite to send a sympathy card to the Jakalla Underworld's Overlord, who is responsible for keeping the batty wizard in his palace prison.

Patience; I'll get there. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 13, 2015, 05:12:04 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;855246
Stories are good.
Stories from Actual Play of EPT are even better.
=


Understood. I have lots and lots of audio tapes of the game sessions with phil in the later 1980s, when we could afford cassette tapes and recorders. My lovely wife has all the gear needed to transcribe them, as she used to to this kind of thing professionally, but she's unable to do it anymore.

I can hire a service to do the work, but there's going to be a fair amount of expense involved. Unless I can get that kind of funding, I'm afraid you'll have to work with my summaries of game sessions in my book; it's the best I can do, I'm afraid.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 13, 2015, 05:14:29 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;855609
Vol. One, "The Chalice Of The Flame", from "To Serve The Petal Throne". :)
Great! Thanks.

Here's a question, but first a preamble for context. When I GM I mix in NPCs who are rather dim. In part that is because in my experience there are in the real world a fair number of folks, some in positions of power or influence, who are, shall we say, not the sharpest tools in the shed. In part that is because all the NPCs being clever all of the time sounds dull. And finally, a few dim NPCs give the players a chance to be clever without too much effort. Which given the stresses and strains of everyone's busy lives, is sometimes nice.

When you and Gronan describe your experiences, I get the impression that Phil, Gary, et al never seemed to intentionally play an NPC dumber than were they, the GM. Is that accurate or am I missing something?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 13, 2015, 05:23:44 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;855250
Were there a lot of ultra-tech available?
Not just left overs from the Elder days but also stuff that the resident (hostile) aliens may have created.

I'm thinking of adding Hlyss Gates that are matched teleport portals that the poles of look like something extruded by a giant insect and glued together.

Would these be out of place or just another of many strange things encountered?
=


Yes, but only in specific areas like the space marine base at the South Pole. Otherwise, it was pretty rare to find tech stuff; lots of it tended to make us invincible, so Phil tended to ration it out a bit.

He also then led us off to adventures with the Ssu and Hlyss, who had - we found out the hard way! - a lot of tech items in their arsenals and were not at all afraid of using it on us. If one was anywhere near their strongholds, we saw a lot of this kind of thing pointed at us - they didn't see to have any Eyes, but did have energy weapons that were a shock to run into. No conventional explosives or slug-throwers, just the Other-planar-powered equivalent of 20mm autocannon on tripods. Running into hostile non-humans with tripod-mounted, crew-served heavy weapons was a real nightmare, as we just were not trained and equipped for such things. We got our asses handed to us, on several occasions.

(Which is why I normally carried a little whisk broom and dust pan in my pack while off on adventures; you swept up your casualties, dumped the ashes into the Helmet of the Three-pointed Star, pushed the button, and hoped for the best. Sometimes it even worked.)

They also had, on thankfully very rare occasions, 'energy rods' that worked like energy rifles, and much more rarely actual hand weapons.

Battles between us with our sorcery and 'Eyes' and them and their sorcery and stuff got pretty spectacular; Phil's version of blaster battles...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 13, 2015, 05:41:33 PM
Quote from: Chgowiz;855272

1. Nobody could fucking agree on anything except that it was a good idea to "put asses in chairs to play games"
2. Nobody wanted to be the cops or arbiters of what was/wasn't old school. It was leaning towards a "you'll know it when you see it" deal.
3. TARGA was not going to go anywhere unless it was about organizing games. Which, twice for a self-proclaimed "International Traditional Gaming Day", it was.
4. If you know "more", please feel free to share, because I'm sure there was shit going on that I don't know about.

I think if TARGA had been more about just playing games, which is where I was hoping it would go, and less about publishers, and had been a grassroots thing, it might have worked.

No, you know what? Strike that, fuck that. We don't need an organization, we just need people to shut the fuck up and play games. Have some damn fun.


First off, thank you for your really informative and useful posts - this is the first time I've been able to get an unbiased version of events from somebody who was actually in there, actually doing something instead of pontificating over The Future Of The Hobby.

This is where I came in, actually, and a lot of why and where I formed my opinions of both the OSR and TARGA. The version I got, from Dr. Raymond, was very different and tended to greatly magnify his leadership and influence in both the OSR and TARGA. He's always been a very 'political animal' kind of guy, and his view of events - as he communicated them to me - was that 'his' TARGA needed to take a leading role in the industry to make sure that disreputable things like "I Hit It With My Axe" didn't tarnish the reputation of the hobby and the people in it. (Especially Dr. Raymond, who's been on a search for legitimacy for quite a long time. Early 1990's, in my experience.) He's been wanting to be A Major Publisher for about the same amount of time; it tends to color his viewpoints on things.

You are exactly right about "We don't need an organization, we just need people to shut the fuck up and play games. Have some damn fun." I strongly agree with that, and have held the same position for something like thirty-five years. In my time, I've seen an amazing number of 'movements', 'organizations', 'associations', and the like come and go; it always seemed to be about the 'prestige' and 'leadership' roles of the organizers, and a lot less about the games, the players, and the fun of the hobby. "Organized", "Authorized", "Official", and "Sanctioned" - along with business buzz-words like "premium products" and "consistent game play" - all seem to presage the eventual decline of the thing that somebody is trying to 'organize' for the good of the hobby.

Interesting. Very, very interesting, and thank you for this - it does shed some light on some things I've been seeing go by... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 13, 2015, 05:46:51 PM
Quote from: Bren;855256
I can't recall much from the EPT games in the 1970s so I got nuthin' there.

I was a player in a con session run by Sandy Petersen with RQTekumel. We were in the underworld somewhere fighting some kind of monster. My character was badly wounded...only it wasn't described as badly wounded...it was "the monster reaches over, plucks out your eye, stares at it for a moment, then eats it." :jaw-dropping: I don't remember what else went on in that session, but I sure as hell remember that. I wish I could remember what monster that was. Is there one that is particularly found of eating real eyes?


Thunru'u. Thomar the Wizard had one as his butler, and when we asked hom to pack us a picnic lunch for the assault on the palace of Bassa, the chap packed us an assortment of eyespoons as well as the food and drink. He - I think it was a 'he' - spoke with a bit of lisp, which I put down to his having a beak instead of lips; we had a hell of a time keeping a straight face, as Phil voicing the character sounded waaay too much like Daffy Duck.

In typical butler form, the worthy gent was scandalized that we didn't have a good set of sterling silver eyespoons, and we got a crash course on how to use them and keep them polished. I think Eyloa still has them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 13, 2015, 05:48:04 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;855289
Thunru'u, "The Eater of Eyes".


Yeah, that's them. See previous reply... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 13, 2015, 05:54:10 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;855304
Yes, I see. I'd have simply no space to hold a collection like yours:).


Well, I guess I simply have different criteria for "losing";).

Well, my PCs were exploring Tekumel, and came across a place where the people of a long-lost age have been practicing P.E. to keep in shape.
Now, I extrapolated. But there were Eyes there that served to make you relive your last action time and time again.
With them, you could get a whole workout in 30 seconds. The ultimate in couch potatoes training!
I leave it to you to guess what a Livyani clan used this Eye for...:D

It eats Eyes? What a waste:D!


Agreed; The wife has been very patient and very supportive, but it all still adds up. I had to get a garden shed for the scenery tubs, about thirty-five of them...

Probably. Phil came to RPGs from miniatures, and it did have an effect on him. Normally, he was pretty good about it, but we did give his beloved Saracen infantry a really hard thrashing - Gronan is a very good man on the table, and Phil didn't stand a chance.

Well, yes; the Eyes are tools of the Ancients, and are their versions of screwdrivers and pliers. They do just about anything, including what you extrapolated. (Typical Livyani, too.)

Oh; sorry. We should have been more clear. They eat eyes, not Eyes... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 13, 2015, 05:56:48 PM
There: I think we're all caught up. I'm off the shop in the basement; I've got Barsoomian flyers on the work table; these are also useful for Tekumelyani aircars, too. Only one radium cannon in stock (vintage Heritage USA), so I'll have to make a magnetic mounting for it so it can move between flyers as needed... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on September 13, 2015, 07:09:10 PM
Actually, you know, you might be able to answer a question I've had for a very long time.  What happened to Heritage Miniatures?

I used to have some of their plastic fantasy miniatures sets and have always regretted not picking up more of them.

I know Reaper got the moulds in the late eighties or early nineties.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 13, 2015, 07:28:14 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;855621
Thunru'u. Thomar the Wizard had one as his butler, and when we asked hom to pack us a picnic lunch for the assault on the palace of Bassa, the chap packed us an assortment of eyespoons as well as the food and drink. He - I think it was a 'he' - spoke with a bit of lisp, which I put down to his having a beak instead of lips; we had a hell of a time keeping a straight face, as Phil voicing the character sounded waaay too much like Daffy Duck.

In typical butler form, the worthy gent was scandalized that we didn't have a good set of sterling silver eyespoons, and we got a crash course on how to use them and keep them polished. I think Eyloa still has them.


Oh Blessed Karakan, I'd forgotten about the sterling silver eyespoons.

You know, to a young whelp raised on Warner Brothers, Bored of the Rings, and Monty Python, it sometimes seemed like Phil had no sense of humor.

That just ain't so; it was just a lot less Chuck Jones and more Oscar Wilde.  We thought the eyespoons were about the funniest thing we'd ever heard of.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 13, 2015, 07:30:54 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;855625
There: I think we're all caught up. I'm off the shop in the basement; I've got Barsoomian flyers on the work table; these are also useful for Tekumelyani aircars, too. Only one radium cannon in stock (vintage Heritage USA), so I'll have to make a magnetic mounting for it so it can move between flyers as needed... :)


You know, I used to dread "What has Chrine been building NOW?" when you were on the other side of the table.

Or there was poor Tom Thompson who seemed to consistently guess WRONG with his "wonder weapons."  Remember the LXXXIII Chinese War Rocket Artillery Battalion?

For those not familiar with Chinese war rockets, their aiming was, shall we say, somewhat approximate.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 13, 2015, 08:30:30 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;855636
Actually, you know, you might be able to answer a question I've had for a very long time.  What happened to Heritage Miniatures?

I used to have some of their plastic fantasy miniatures sets and have always regretted not picking up more of them.

I know Reaper got the moulds in the late eighties or early nineties.


Well, I can try; the lift tanks on the flyers just got glued onto the decks, and I have to wait before I can get going again.

Let's see. My perspective is that of somebody who saw them at conventions and bought their products in the Tin Turkey; I knew a few of the guys who worked there, but that was it.

Heritage started out very well; they got into the very beginnings of the US wargame market, after the initial imports of Minifigs and some of the smaller lines. Getting UK figures was a little hard to do, as you had to do everything by letters and international money orders; Heritage stepped in to fill the vacuum in the market, and did so with figures that were better then what else was on offer. They were a huge presence in the historicals market, and were the first figures that really caught on in the fantasy one - keep in mind that RPGs were still too new, and the emphasis was on huge armies fighting mighty battles. (Ask Gronan about the ones at the Tin Turkey, where the tables were in danger of collapsing from all the lead on them.) I bought a lot of their figures, over time, for areas that I was interested in.

What they ran up against, in a very short version, was a kid named Tom Meier and a company called Ral Partha. RP went right into the fantasy RPG market, with individual figures; Heritage had blister packs with six (usually) of the same figure, which didn't appeal to the RPG players.

RP went from strength to strength; Heritage had the problem of being run mostly by classic wargames guys, and it was a while before they got on the RPG bandwagon with their 'Dungeon Dweller' line. By that point, they had lost a lot of RPG market share to RP, and were also losing market share to RP's historicals - also by Tom Meier, and much better sculpts.

We also saw, at the big conventions, that they had some really huge display games going. I heard from the booth guys that the cost of these games was chalked off to marketing, but boy - did they look and feel like a lot of money was going out the door to pay for all the overhead. Great displays, and very cool looking, but a high proportion of the company's casting output was going into the games and into the painting seminars that the company was doing; As I recall, they were trying to break out into the paint business - I still have some of the paint jars that they sold and/or enclosed with the sets - and a lot of lead was going into this area of marketing as well.

There was, from what I saw and was told by the booth guys, a lot of overhead expense being absorbed by the company. I was a good boy, and kept my mouth shut, and didn't ask if all the marketing was actually bringing in the revenue. The miniatures biz is a pretty low-margin, high-cost, labor-intensive one for anybody, and from what we could see at the time they were pumping the money out a lot faster they could take it in.

I was very startled when they introduced plastics. Back then, the molding for plastic injection molding - especially for hard styrene - was mind-numbingly expensive, and there just wasn't enough money in the market to pay for it back then. The investment for doing plastics didn't come down low enough until much later, and my gut feeling is that the overheads in both the marketing displays and the plastics line is what killed the company off. Too much investment for too little return, I thought at the time, and still think today.

(By the way, if you like these figures, Michael Thomas at Classic Miniatures got a lot of the old lines, and still produces them. We've gotten vintage figures from him, and been very impressed by the quality and the service.)

Because the game industry is so small, it's very hard to get the benefits of things like 'economy of scale'. Metal miniatures are relatively easy to manufacture; resin is cheaper to invest in, but costs more in labor to make; soft plastics are cheap to make - you don't need to spend as much on molds, and they last longer - and hard plastics have to have a huge market to be profitable. See also the Perry's and their lines, or Warlord's.

So, that's my view, from my perspective. I do miss those old Martians, though!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 13, 2015, 08:31:55 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;855642
Oh Blessed Karakan, I'd forgotten about the sterling silver eyespoons.

You know, to a young whelp raised on Warner Brothers, Bored of the Rings, and Monty Python, it sometimes seemed like Phil had no sense of humor.

That just ain't so; it was just a lot less Chuck Jones and more Oscar Wilde.  We thought the eyespoons were about the funniest thing we'd ever heard of.


Phil's humor was both literary and dry. Although, he was never adverse to our doing slapstick for him... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 13, 2015, 08:56:36 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;855644
You know, I used to dread "What has Chrine been building NOW?" when you were on the other side of the table.

Or there was poor Tom Thompson who seemed to consistently guess WRONG with his "wonder weapons."  Remember the LXXXIII Chinese War Rocket Artillery Battalion?

For those not familiar with Chinese war rockets, their aiming was, shall we say, somewhat approximate.


Hee! Hee! For me, that was the whole point of gaming. The world is full of the downright silly and amusing, and way too much of it has been handed to soldiers who have been told to simply get on with it. No matter how goofy the idea might be. Google 'Panjandrum', the WWII secret weapon; due to the marvels of YouTube, you can see what happened when they pushed the button.

We played a lot of "Chainmail", and I had a lot of fun building little units of very silly stuff that always caused a fair bit of panic and consternation when they were placed on the table. Gronan would always peer at them with a worried look, and get the twitching awfuls when I'd oh-so-casually mention that I'd just read a really neat article on something. We'd called this 'gamesmanship', and he'd do it to me just as well; his figures were lovingly painted to depict some great hero of the Middle Ages, and the little lead warriors always seemed to live up to the reputations of their originals. (You wanted to keep a mallet handy for the little snots.) I usually managed to 'get' him and the other regulars, and there would be the mighty battle cry of "YOU  BASTARD!!!"  that would ring down the halls of Coffman Union and bring in all the other non-engaged players to see what I'd done this time.

So, anyway. Tom and the war rockets. I had whipped up some Asian figures with rocket tubes for laughs, knowing full well that they were more or less useless on the battlefield against troops that were any good. The British Army manual for war rockets plainly and quite specifically states that they are "good only against uncivilized bodies of warriors and Americans".

Tom was an accountant by trade, and he did gaming like an auditing excercise. He was a number-cruncher of the number-crunchers, as as soon as he saw my little band of rocketeers he just had to have some. (There was a lot of copy-Chirine-'cause-he's-a-studmuffin, back in those days.) So, he spent an amazing amount of money to build a massive unit of the things, and it looked really fearsome on the table when it finally lurched into action.

Turn one, and he cuts loose, and starts rolling like a maniac on the "Chainmail" tables. The rest of us laughed our fool heads off for the next hour, as the rockets went every which way except in the direction of my army. I sat there, having a burger (there was nothing else to do, and I was hungry), while Gronan took over an hour to resolve all the casualties in Tom's army from his own war rockets. And then, the Big Finish! Tom had roll a morale check, and his units failed from left to right in perfect military order. And failed big, too; they routed off the table, never to be seen again that game.

I think I lost a couple of figures from hangnails, Gronan said.

Later, when we discovered those little 'party poppers' that look like little bottles and blow paper streamers out of the bottom when you pulled the string, the house rule at my table was that we used these to simulate war rockets - anybody hit by a paper streamer had to roll to see how badly they'd been hit - as it just seemed to be more fair. And just as funny, too.

Timer's gone off - time to mate hulls to eighth ray tanks!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 13, 2015, 10:31:32 PM
Much like Chirine's "Red Cataphracts" I had one or two units that were a terror to their enemies.  My "Knights of the Garter" were rightly feared by every French knight on the continent.  And in skirmish games, nobody got in Sir Polidor's way... more than once.

My "Scarlet Brotherhood", a Viking band with blood red shields, on the other hand had the reputation of i) never failing a morale check and ii) never living to the end of a battle.  They had a lot of company when the Valkyries came, though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on September 13, 2015, 10:56:18 PM
Thanks Chirine ba Kah  I always thought it might have been the plastics that brought them down.  Sad really, they were ahead of their time with that.  It's also sad that Games Workshop managed to be the ones that brought miniatures gaming into a more mainstream audience.

But yeah, Tom Meir, still the best sculptor in the business bar non.  Don't get me wrong, the Perrys are still great but Tom's amazing.  Personally digital sculpts and the resulting creep to 33mm "scale" are a pox on the hobby.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 13, 2015, 11:38:47 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;855682
Much like Chirine's "Red Cataphracts" I had one or two units that were a terror to their enemies.  My "Knights of the Garter" were rightly feared by every French knight on the continent.  And in skirmish games, nobody got in Sir Polidor's way... more than once.

My "Scarlet Brotherhood", a Viking band with blood red shields, on the other hand had the reputation of i) never failing a morale check and ii) never living to the end of a battle.  They had a lot of company when the Valkyries came, though.


:)
Yep; it made "Chainmail" games pretty interesting, it did... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 13, 2015, 11:48:43 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;855691
Thanks Chirine ba Kah  I always thought it might have been the plastics that brought them down.  Sad really, they were ahead of their time with that.  It's also sad that Games Workshop managed to be the ones that brought miniatures gaming into a more mainstream audience.

But yeah, Tom Meir, still the best sculptor in the business bar non.  Don't get me wrong, the Perrys are still great but Tom's amazing.  Personally digital sculpts and the resulting creep to 33mm "scale" are a pox on the hobby.


Yeah, I think so too; it was the tooling costs that were the killer. Another decade, and they would have been very successful in the market. GW managed top make it pay, but they were also riding the front of the huge change in molding technology. And I think you're right; the later GW multi-part plastics have a lot less 'charm' then the older one- or two-part ones did, at least to my tired old eyes.

Poser illos in games also don't do anything for me, but here the digital technology saves the day - I'm looking at illustrating both "To Serve The Petal Throne" and the second edition of my miniatures rules with color (!) photos (!) of the miniatures we used out at Phil's. It's cheaper for me to do it that way, and people might be amused to see the Glorious General and his troops in all their manliness advancing on the foe. Or Harchar and his pirates - sorry, "honest seafaring merchants"! - carrying out their wealth-enhancement strategies. Or Princess Vrisa, in her various suits of armor and party frock. (That last is for those of you who aren't interested in pirates. Sorry; "honest seafaring merchants".) :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 14, 2015, 12:16:59 AM
I think perhaps part of Heritage's over-enthusiasm was part of the whole "Gold Rush" mentality Chirine and I have talked about before.

No, it didn't bring huge numbers of new companies investing in gaming instead of high tech stocks or something; what it DID do was change the expectations of what was "a strong company."

Jon Peterson has chronicled TSR's sales in the late 70s... $300,000 in 1976, double that in 1977, and just shy of $1M in 1978.  This was the most unheard of thing anybody had ever heard of, and the rate of sales continued to increase into the 1980s.  Much like the US housing bubble of 2004-2008, everybody was convinced that this state of affairs would continue forever.  Sinking major money into plastic injection molding looks a good bet when you think the marked has only started to grow.

In actuality, and with the benefit of hindsight, 1983 or 84 is when the bubble popped but good, and it wasn't coming back.

It's why, I'm afraid, when people STILL say "how can we make RPGs mainstream," my answer is 'We can't.'  D&D was featured in "E.T.", the top-grossing movie in history for several years.  You don't GET more mainstream than that.  But those things happen once.  You might as well try to revive the hula hoop.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 14, 2015, 12:24:22 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;855703
I think perhaps part of Heritage's over-enthusiasm was part of the whole "Gold Rush" mentality Chirine and I have talked about before.

No, it didn't bring huge numbers of new companies investing in gaming instead of high tech stocks or something; what it DID do was change the expectations of what was "a strong company."

Jon Peterson has chronicled TSR's sales in the late 70s... $300,000 in 1976, double that in 1977, and just shy of $1M in 1978.  This was the most unheard of thing anybody had ever heard of, and the rate of sales continued to increase into the 1980s.  Much like the US housing bubble of 2004-2008, everybody was convinced that this state of affairs would continue forever.  Sinking major money into plastic injection molding looks a good bet when you think the marked has only started to grow.
In actuality, and with the benefit of hindsight, 1983 or 84 is when the bubble popped but good, and it wasn't coming back.

It's why, I'm afraid, when people STILL say "how can we make RPGs mainstream," my answer is 'We can't.'  D&D was featured in "E.T.", the top-grossing movie in history for several years.  You don't GET more mainstream than that.  But those things happen once.  You might as well try to revive the hula hoop.


Yes. I'd tend to agree with you on this. look at what happened to us with Adventure Games - the bubble popped, and all of the regulars were out the door. Us 'boat people' in Dave's own phrase, simply found other housing and kept on going. We worked at a minimal level, doing it for the fun of it, and we lasted another four years. Then the 'artistic types' took over, and here we are where we are today.

Hula hoops sell better, too. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 14, 2015, 12:35:56 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;855625
There: I think we're all caught up.
I think you missed one.
Quote from: Bren;855611
Here's a question, but first a preamble for context. When I GM I mix in NPCs who are rather dim. In part that is because in my experience there are in the real world a fair number of folks, some in positions of power or influence, who are, shall we say, not the sharpest tools in the shed. In part that is because all the NPCs being clever all of the time sounds dull. And finally, a few dim NPCs give the players a chance to be clever without too much effort. Which given the stresses and strains of everyone's busy lives, is sometimes nice.

When you and Gronan describe your experiences, I get the impression that Phil, Gary, et al never seemed to intentionally play an NPC dumber than were they, the GM. Is that accurate or am I missing something?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Chgowiz on September 14, 2015, 10:41:00 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;855619
First off, thank you for your really informative and useful posts - this is the first time I've been able to get an unbiased version of events from somebody who was actually in there, actually doing something instead of pontificating over The Future Of The Hobby.

I wish I was unbiased, but quite honestly, I wouldn't piss on "scottsz" if he was on fire. In my opinion, he pissed all over Zak's blog because nobody gave a flying fuck about his long winded mental masturbation on his blog about some dry module that he made sound as boring as fuck. So unbiased? No, but as far as what I saw, yes, those are the facts, and backed up by emails or blog posts. Except where fuckhead nuked his blog.

Could there have been other things at work? I suppose, I'll be the first to admit that I don't play the political games too well and the whole OSR publishing thing turned into a political and business intrigue game. For me, the best move was not to play.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;855619
The version I got, from Dr. Raymond, was very different and tended to greatly magnify his leadership and influence in both the OSR and TARGA. He's always been a very 'political animal' kind of guy, and his view of events - as he communicated them to me - was that 'his' TARGA needed to take a leading role in the industry to make sure that disreputable things like "I Hit It With My Axe" didn't tarnish the reputation of the hobby and the people in it. (Especially Dr. Raymond, who's been on a search for legitimacy for quite a long time. Early 1990's, in my experience.) He's been wanting to be A Major Publisher for about the same amount of time; it tends to color his viewpoints on things.

I can't speak to that and I definitely won't speak to Victor's motives and methods that I don't know anything about. I had no beef with Victor during the few months I was a part of TARGA. From his emails and discussions with me, he supported the idea of "put asses in chairs" and TARGA not being the "OSR police". So I don't know nothin' about nothin' on the things you're talking about.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 14, 2015, 11:18:17 AM
Quote from: Bren;855705
I think you missed one.


Yes, I did - sorry about that! Answer on the way, and thank you for the heads-up! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 14, 2015, 11:43:13 AM
Quote from: Bren;855611
Great! Thanks.

Here's a question, but first a preamble for context. When I GM I mix in NPCs who are rather dim. In part that is because in my experience there are in the real world a fair number of folks, some in positions of power or influence, who are, shall we say, not the sharpest tools in the shed. In part that is because all the NPCs being clever all of the time sounds dull. And finally, a few dim NPCs give the players a chance to be clever without too much effort. Which given the stresses and strains of everyone's busy lives, is sometimes nice.

When you and Gronan describe your experiences, I get the impression that Phil, Gary, et al never seemed to intentionally play an NPC dumber than were they, the GM. Is that accurate or am I missing something?


Hmmm. Great question. My context for my answer - because I think it provides a useful data point, not 'cause I'm being snotty - is that my face time with Gary was pretty limited, and I think he 'revved up' the game a bit; face time with Dave was more extensive, so we played more of a 'normal' game (for the time). With Phil, we were there for years, so that's where a lot of this will be coming from.

The NPCs I met in Greyhawk all seemed like pretty average folks; some came across as smarter then me, some as dumber. All pretty much in the same 'normal range' as you'd meet on a street corner. Pretty much the same with Dave; again, pretty normal folks. Now, having said that, I think it should be said that in both 'D&D' campaigns, I spent a lot more time interacting with beings that were trying to kill me, so opportunities for conversation were a little constrained. There may have been some clever orcs, and some stupid ones, but I didn't have the opportunity to find out.

So, as far as I could tell, I never met an NPC in their games that was dumber then the GM.

Phil, on the other hand, had rolled up about 1,500 of his NPCs before he started playing, and some of them make telephone poles and fence posts look like Einstein. The vast majority of them were pretty average folks, same as for Dave and Gary, but as we spent a lot more time in Phil's world-setting interacting with the NPCs, we found out pretty quickly that Phil was very good at playing smart people, and even better at playing dumb ones. The theater lost a good - I'd say very good - actor in Phil, and all of his NPC portrayals were very convincing. I learned, years later, that he'd based some of them on real people; I've met some of his models for the Vriddi clan of Fasiltum, for example.

We had to deal with some truly stupid and incompetent NPCs over the years. Their clans were fully aware that they were not the brightest lights in the firmament, and found them nice safe jobs in the government and the temples where they would do the least amount of harm and keep things moving along. Which, of course, is where we'd have to deal with them, and Phil took obvious delight in playing these people and watching the 'live players' get more and more exasperated with the 'artificial players'. After a session with some of these NPCs, getting out on a adventure and facing A Dire Peril was a relief.

So, in Phil's case, we did see NPCs dumber then the GM. Waaaay dumber.

I think it depended on the social frameworks of their world-settings, myself. Speaking in very general terms, Dave and Gary seemed to think more in 'adventure-focused' directions, and Phil tended to think more in 'social interaction' terms. I think, and this is a supposition on my part, that this may stem from Phil's outlook as a writer of books who saw gaming as a sideline, and Gary and Dave's apparent outlook as gamers who did books as a sideline. I should note that I never did come right out and ask any of them about this - I was just happy to be able to have some of their time... :)

So, I don't know if I actually answered your question - if you want more, let's continue this. About all I can do is give you the observations I made over the years, and we can go from there.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 14, 2015, 11:45:43 AM
Quote from: Chgowiz;855761
I wish I was unbiased, but quite honestly, I wouldn't piss on "scottsz" if he was on fire. In my opinion, he pissed all over Zak's blog because nobody gave a flying fuck about his long winded mental masturbation on his blog about some dry module that he made sound as boring as fuck. So unbiased? No, but as far as what I saw, yes, those are the facts, and backed up by emails or blog posts. Except where fuckhead nuked his blog.

Could there have been other things at work? I suppose, I'll be the first to admit that I don't play the political games too well and the whole OSR publishing thing turned into a political and business intrigue game. For me, the best move was not to play.

I can't speak to that and I definitely won't speak to Victor's motives and methods that I don't know anything about. I had no beef with Victor during the few months I was a part of TARGA. From his emails and discussions with me, he supported the idea of "put asses in chairs" and TARGA not being the "OSR police". So I don't know nothin' about nothin' on the things you're talking about.


Understood, and thank you for your observations - they fit in with other data I have.

I agree with you about the politics, too. They have been very corrosive, and done more to harm the hobby then anything else.

Very, very interesting... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on September 14, 2015, 04:55:08 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;855609
Vol. One, "The Chalice Of The Flame", from "To Serve The Petal Throne". :)

I have a number of stories about the place, all of which are kinda long. Phil loved to get us down there, as Nyelmu was a great (?) way to send us off on quest; most of which were likely to get us killed in various nasty ways. Phil really liked Nyelmu; we all thought that Nyalmu was pretty bizarre, even for an Undying Wizard. More then once, we thought that it might be polite to send a sympathy card to the Jakalla Underworld's Overlord, who is responsible for keeping the batty wizard in his palace prison.

Patience; I'll get there. :)

The question is, did you send the card eventually?
And was the Overlord just as batty:)?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;855610
Understood. I have lots and lots of audio tapes of the game sessions with phil in the later 1980s, when we could afford cassette tapes and recorders. My lovely wife has all the gear needed to transcribe them, as she used to to this kind of thing professionally, but she's unable to do it anymore.

I can hire a service to do the work, but there's going to be a fair amount of expense involved. Unless I can get that kind of funding, I'm afraid you'll have to work with my summaries of game sessions in my book; it's the best I can do, I'm afraid.

Do I smell a Kickstarter;)?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;855613
Yes, but only in specific areas like the space marine base at the South Pole. Otherwise, it was pretty rare to find tech stuff; lots of it tended to make us invincible, so Phil tended to ration it out a bit.
We got our asses handed to us, on several occasions.

(Which is why I normally carried a little whisk broom and dust pan in my pack while off on adventures; you swept up your casualties, dumped the ashes into the Helmet of the Three-pointed Star, pushed the button, and hoped for the best. Sometimes it even worked.)

They also had, on thankfully very rare occasions, 'energy rods' that worked like energy rifles, and much more rarely actual hand weapons.

Battles between us with our sorcery and 'Eyes' and them and their sorcery and stuff got pretty spectacular; Phil's version of blaster battles...

Before the advent of energy weapons the phrase "sweeping casualties" meant something different, didn't it:D?
Back then, you'd sweeping them in the report. Which is a sign of negligence.
After energy weapons, it's a sign that you'd rather have them living again. Which is a sign of caring about your troops, if anything.
Interesting how technology of your enemies changes the language...
(No, no particular conclusion from this, I just thought it's funny).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;855621
Thunru'u. Thomar the Wizard had one as his butler, and when we asked hom to pack us a picnic lunch for the assault on the palace of Bassa, the chap packed us an assortment of eyespoons as well as the food and drink. He - I think it was a 'he' - spoke with a bit of lisp, which I put down to his having a beak instead of lips; we had a hell of a time keeping a straight face, as Phil voicing the character sounded waaay too much like Daffy Duck.

In typical butler form, the worthy gent was scandalized that we didn't have a good set of sterling silver eyespoons, and we got a crash course on how to use them and keep them polished. I think Eyloa still has them.

Sounds like a true gentleman! Manners should be kept in everything and so on. Small wonder he was hired as a butler!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;855623
Agreed; The wife has been very patient and very supportive, but it all still adds up. I had to get a garden shed for the scenery tubs, about thirty-five of them...

I'd probably have to evacuate the flat we're living in.

Quote
Probably. Phil came to RPGs from miniatures, and it did have an effect on him. Normally, he was pretty good about it, but we did give his beloved Saracen infantry a really hard thrashing - Gronan is a very good man on the table, and Phil didn't stand a chance.

Well, sometimes the NPCs win, sometimes they lose. At least Phil had players who know when to cut their losses and run.

Quote
Well, yes; the Eyes are tools of the Ancients, and are their versions of screwdrivers and pliers. They do just about anything, including what you extrapolated. (Typical Livyani, too.)

Yes. A screwdriver that produces screws out of nowhere and drives them in the whole even when the whole is smaller than the screws...
The normal everyday technology of high-technology races is just begging to be re-purposed, isn't it?

Quote
Oh; sorry. We should have been more clear. They eat eyes, not Eyes... :)

Yeah, got that. I guess I was tired when I read it, myself, because substituting Eye for eye and pretending not to understand sounded fun. Right now, it no longer does.
Although it could be, if read like an impersonation of the aforementioned Thunru'u butler:p!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;855642
Oh Blessed Karakan, I'd forgotten about the sterling silver eyespoons.

You know, to a young whelp raised on Warner Brothers, Bored of the Rings, and Monty Python, it sometimes seemed like Phil had no sense of humor.

That just ain't so; it was just a lot less Chuck Jones and more Oscar Wilde.  We thought the eyespoons were about the funniest thing we'd ever heard of.

I guess not even knowing who Chuck Jones is actually helped me. Tekumel seemed like a world almost custom-made for a Referee with dry sense of humour since I first visited a site about it, long before finding the first rulebook.
Or maybe it was the examples of Tekumeli humor on the site that prompted this realisation. Sounds more likely, now that I think of it.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;855682
Much like Chirine's "Red Cataphracts" I had one or two units that were a terror to their enemies.  My "Knights of the Garter" were rightly feared by every French knight on the continent.  And in skirmish games, nobody got in Sir Polidor's way... more than once.

My "Scarlet Brotherhood", a Viking band with blood red shields, on the other hand had the reputation of i) never failing a morale check and ii) never living to the end of a battle.  They had a lot of company when the Valkyries came, though.

Was that an accurate description of the Scarlet Brotherhood?
Short, bearded, keeping a list of their grudges so they wouldn't forget, obsessed with honour, seeking redemption for losing their honour through death:D?
(I don't think you need me to explain the reference).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;855701

Poser illos in games also don't do anything for me, but here the digital technology saves the day - I'm looking at illustrating both "To Serve The Petal Throne" and the second edition of my miniatures rules with color (!) photos (!) of the miniatures we used out at Phil's. It's cheaper for me to do it that way, and people might be amused to see the Glorious General and his troops in all their manliness advancing on the foe. Or Harchar and his pirates - sorry, "honest seafaring merchants"! - carrying out their wealth-enhancement strategies. Or Princess Vrisa, in her various suits of armor and party frock. (That last is for those of you who aren't interested in pirates. Sorry; "honest seafaring merchants".) :)

Is there a miniature of Princess Vrisa as a honest seafarer for the best of both worlds?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;855771

So, I don't know if I actually answered your question - if you want more, let's continue this. About all I can do is give you the observations I made over the years, and we can go from there.

Personally, I find that interesting, so that's one vote for continuing. The final decision, of course, is with Bren;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 14, 2015, 07:13:06 PM
Hello,

As far as intelligent creatures/monsters go, the ones that are capable of speech, what language would they normally speak? The language of the Imperium? A forgien one? An ancient tongue? Their own language? I know Priest Harsan was learning the language of the Thunru'u in MoG. They also spoke to each other in Tsolyáni. I'm curious about some of the other creatures that you guys encountered at the Professor's table(excluding those that speak the secret tongue of Ksarul,etc). For example the Sro?

Also which creatures besides the inimical ones gave you gents the most trouble?

Thanks,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 14, 2015, 07:53:37 PM
Gary and Dave's NPCs were as smart as they needed to be... but pretty much anybody who was more than an ordinary person was very smart.

Phil's NPCs and nonhumans spoke an amazing mix of languages.  I remember one Thunru'u spoke Tsaq, which was ancient Yan Koryani.  And so many people/beings spoke "The Secret Tongue of the Priests of Ksarul" it became a running joke.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 14, 2015, 07:59:58 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;855847
Gary and Dave's NPCs were as smart as they needed to be... but pretty much anybody who was more than an ordinary person was very smart.

Phil's NPCs and nonhumans spoke an amazing mix of languages.  I remember one Thunru'u spoke Tsaq, which was ancient Yan Koryani.  And so many people/beings spoke "The Secret Tongue of the Priests of Ksarul" it became a running joke.


Secret indeed...!!! Thanks!!! :0)

H
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 14, 2015, 09:10:15 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;855847
Gary and Dave's NPCs were as smart as they needed to be... but pretty much anybody who was more than an ordinary person was very smart.
That's the impression I get from hearing about stuff. I think that is one thing that makes that style seem more confrontational than what I tend to run. The GM may be smart (usually is) but the NPCs?

An awful lot of historical rulers, robber barons, gang lords, and such just don't seem all that bright. Some are, but some just aren't.

Quote
And so many people/beings spoke "The Secret Tongue of the Priests of Ksarul" it became a running joke.
The "Secret Tongue" thing is something invented by the Tsolyani Rosetta clan that teaches languages. Like 99.9% of advertising copy it's slightly exaggerated. ;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 14, 2015, 10:04:37 PM
Gary was very, very influenced by Dying Earth.  EVERYBODY was out to shaft you.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 14, 2015, 10:37:35 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;855874
Gary was very, very influenced by Dying Earth.  EVERYBODY was out to shaft you.

It's funny though, when I remember Jack Vance's stories, I recall a lot of the opponents, while out to get you, weren't necessarily all that bright, especially when compared to some of the protagonists.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 14, 2015, 11:09:15 PM
True enough.  This may be one of the ways in which "D&D is first and foremost a GAME" is manifest; simulating a world was less important than the battle of wits between referee and players.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 15, 2015, 12:12:55 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;855883
True enough.  This may be one of the ways in which "D&D is first and foremost a GAME" is manifest; simulating a world was less important than the battle of wits between referee and players.
Exactly. Battle of wits was our original style. Sadly, in our group, the "battle of wits" DMs tended to also be known as Death & Despair DMs. Getting to any level above 2nd or 3rd tended to be a rare accomplishment.

Personally I got tired of running that style sometime in the 1970s. Not all players enjoy the battle, and killing PCs was just too easy as the DM for it to entertain me. I started adding NPCs who had their own goals, but those goals didn't have "#1 - Shaft the PCs" on their list. Not to say that some NPCs wouldn't shaft the PCs. Either because the NPCs were evil, or greedy, or just couldn't resist taking advantage of PCs who left all the loot unguarded. But you could find NPCs who were at least as loyal as the PCs. (Not that "as loyal as the PCs" is always a very high bar.)

Eventually I found that figuring out what made the NPCs tick so you could negotiate effectively and figure out how far it was safe to trust them was a lot more fun for me as a player and the same seemed true for a fair number of people when I GMed. So since then, I try to hit something that is more world simulation and less game. And I challenge myself by testing my GM juggling skills rather than my ability to out think or out strategize the players.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 15, 2015, 02:22:53 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;855818
The question is, did you send the card eventually?
And was the Overlord just as batty:)?

Do I smell a Kickstarter;)?

Before the advent of energy weapons the phrase "sweeping casualties" meant something different, didn't it:D?
Back then, you'd sweeping them in the report. Which is a sign of negligence.
After energy weapons, it's a sign that you'd rather have them living again. Which is a sign of caring about your troops, if anything.
Interesting how technology of your enemies changes the language...
(No, no particular conclusion from this, I just thought it's funny).

Sounds like a true gentleman! Manners should be kept in everything and so on. Small wonder he was hired as a butler!

I'd probably have to evacuate the flat we're living in.

Well, sometimes the NPCs win, sometimes they lose. At least Phil had players who know when to cut their losses and run.

Yes. A screwdriver that produces screws out of nowhere and drives them in the whole even when the whole is smaller than the screws...
The normal everyday technology of high-technology races is just begging to be re-purposed, isn't it?

Although it could be, if read like an impersonation of the aforementioned Thunru'u butler:p!

Is there a miniature of Princess Vrisa as a honest seafarer for the best of both worlds?




No; I didn't get the chance.

The Overlord was actually pretty reasonable. Don't wreck the place, and he was cool.

No, no Kickstarter. The biggest mistake I ever made in my life, and the only one that I truly regret, was getting involved with the business side of Tekumel. The only reason why I am alive today, three years after the brain bleed, is because I pulled the plug on that whole sordid mess and did not renew my contract with the Tekumel Foundation. Let somebody else try; I did it for over thirty years, and I think I've paid my dues.

:)

Imagine Jeeves as a Thunru'u, and you have it! :)

Agreed; I have a very patient spouse! :)

And we cut and ran a lot, too...

Yes, it does, an we had a lot of fun doing so. Used to give Phil a good laugh, too!

:)

No, sorry. Just three of her in armour at various points in her career, and the one of her in her party dress that Phil designed for her. Wouldn't be too hard to do, though; hmmm...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 15, 2015, 02:32:51 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;855833
Hello,

As far as intelligent creatures/monsters go, the ones that are capable of speech, what language would they normally speak? The language of the Imperium? A forgien one? An ancient tongue? Their own language? I know Priest Harsan was learning the language of the Thunru'u in MoG. They also spoke to each other in Tsolyáni. I'm curious about some of the other creatures that you guys encountered at the Professor's table(excluding those that speak the secret tongue of Ksarul,etc). For example the Sro?

Also which creatures besides the inimical ones gave you gents the most trouble?

Thanks,

H :0)


All of the sentients we encountered usually spoke their native languages, and usually the most common human language in the area that they lived in. It took a while for us to realize this, and then it all clicked in for us; these are the descendants of the people who got stranded on the planet when it got dropped into the pocket dimension - think tourists in transit stuck in an airport - and who managed to survive somehow.

Sro, for example, speak what we humans call Irkutz - the language of the dragons. There's a script for this, that looks nothing like any of the human languages and - I think so, anyway - Phil's nicest font. We did find out (the hard way) that Gertie, the great golden dragon of Blackmoor, also speaks Irkutz; dragons, it seems, are able to move between the planes. (Or, at least Phil and Dave did it between Tekumel and Blackmoor.)

Sentients, the way Phil played them, were (in effect) NPCs, and could have the same skills and abilities as PCs could. This made them very, very effective opponents!

Of the non-sentients, the fungus creatures were all the worst to deal with...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 15, 2015, 02:36:34 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;855847
Gary and Dave's NPCs were as smart as they needed to be... but pretty much anybody who was more than an ordinary person was very smart.

Phil's NPCs and nonhumans spoke an amazing mix of languages.  I remember one Thunru'u spoke Tsaq, which was ancient Yan Koryani.  And so many people/beings spoke "The Secret Tongue of the Priests of Ksarul" it became a running joke.


Agreed!

Everybody took the Secret Language of the Priests of Ksarul becaue it was in the book and sounded cool; it became a running joke as the 'lingua franca of Tekumel". So Phil had the Secret Secret Language later on, and then when we learned that we had the Really Secret Language. And Secret Decoder Rings, too. Gods, we had fun with the Squareheads over the years! (They called us Vimuhla worhippers 'Matchheads from our flame crests...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 15, 2015, 02:38:03 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;855850
Secret indeed...!!! Thanks!!! :0)

H


It's Secret. Really, really secret. Just like everything over at the Temple of Ksarul. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 15, 2015, 02:48:32 PM
Today marks the third anniversary of my brain bleed, on September 15th, 2012. I am still alive; my blood pressure has been 'human normal' now for the better part of two and a half years. I am doing well, aside from not being able to tolerate extreme temperatures (and fools, Gronan says) and being tired most of the time, so I won't complain.

The whacking big scar on the back of my head where they drilled into my skull and vacuumed it out - it made the oddest noise, from where I was sitting at the time - still itches, and I have to wear a fancy hat when it's cold to keep my head warm.

Life is good; I'm still here. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 15, 2015, 04:22:22 PM
Congratulations! Glad you're here.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 15, 2015, 11:11:06 PM
Quote from: Bren;855884
Exactly. Battle of wits was our original style. Sadly, in our group, the "battle of wits" DMs tended to also be known as Death & Despair DMs. Getting to any level above 2nd or 3rd tended to be a rare accomplishment.

Personally I got tired of running that style sometime in the 1970s.


"All NPCs are out to shaft you" was, frankly, the thing I liked least about Gary's reffing style.  But I very much enjoyed the "hard mode" of play.  I don't mind the dungeon being an enormous fucking deathtrap.

And as referee, I deliberately under power most set up monsters so that I can play as hard as I can against the players.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 15, 2015, 11:12:04 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;855951
Today marks the third anniversary of my brain bleed, on September 15th, 2012. I am still alive; my blood pressure has been 'human normal' now for the better part of two and a half years. I am doing well, aside from not being able to tolerate extreme temperatures (and fools, Gronan says) and being tired most of the time, so I won't complain.

The whacking big scar on the back of my head where they drilled into my skull and vacuumed it out - it made the oddest noise, from where I was sitting at the time - still itches, and I have to wear a fancy hat when it's cold to keep my head warm.

Life is good; I'm still here. :)


Ain't it, though?  Many, many congratulations.

And neither one of us has ever had any time for fools, frankly.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 16, 2015, 12:50:02 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;855951
Today marks the third anniversary of my brain bleed, on September 15th, 2012. I am still alive; my blood pressure has been 'human normal' now for the better part of two and a half years. I am doing well, aside from not being able to tolerate extreme temperatures (and fools, Gronan says) and being tired most of the time, so I won't complain.

The whacking big scar on the back of my head where they drilled into my skull and vacuumed it out - it made the oddest noise, from where I was sitting at the time - still itches, and I have to wear a fancy hat when it's cold to keep my head warm.

Life is good; I'm still here. :)


Excellent!!! We will try to keep you busy!!!

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 16, 2015, 02:31:29 AM
Thank you, everybody - just happy to be here!

The rotary saw made the weirdest noise; it was very close to the resonant frequency of my skull, and I thought my fillings were going to fly out. And yes, it was a local, not a general; the brain feels no pain, and they needed to make sure that they weren't taking out anything important with the wet vac.

Dialog from what we refer to as 'The Incident':

Paramedic One: "This guy's 220 over 110!"
Paramedic Two: "Shut up. That's his wife and daughter next to you."
Pramedics Three through Six: "Here we go!", as Firefighters One through Eight hauled me out the door.

Moral of the story - get your blood pressure checked regularly. And avoid as much stress in tour life as you can, too.

(PS - From the Missus: "And he made us clean up the office while we were waiting for the Fire Department to arrive, too. Like we had nothing else to do, and like he had nothing else to worry about. Some people's children. His dad was that way, too." Yes, dear. Thank you, dear.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 16, 2015, 03:19:01 PM
Holy cupcakes, your propensity for narrow escapes hasn't diminished over the years.

My cholesterol is higher than it should be but I'm pleased to say my BP was 127/71 a week ago.  I loved living in NY, but it's no coincidence my BP got to 161/106 while I was living there.

And I'm glad the wet vac operator was paying attention.  ("Hey, Charlie, where does this wobbly green bit go?")
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: rawma on September 17, 2015, 09:45:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;855951
Today marks the third anniversary of my brain bleed, on September 15th, 2012.


And today marks the second anniversary of my surgery.

Quote
Life is good; I'm still here. :)


Same here, I am happy to say, although I have to use ;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on September 18, 2015, 05:51:45 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;855945
No; I didn't get the chance.

The Overlord was actually pretty reasonable. Don't wreck the place, and he was cool.

Too bad, but sometimes it's not meant to be.
And I envy his mental stability;)!

Quote
No, no Kickstarter. The biggest mistake I ever made in my life, and the only one that I truly regret, was getting involved with the business side of Tekumel. The only reason why I am alive today, three years after the brain bleed, is because I pulled the plug on that whole sordid mess and did not renew my contract with the Tekumel Foundation. Let somebody else try; I did it for over thirty years, and I think I've paid my dues.

Sounds like you paid your dues, indeed. And I can see why you're not interested in this kind of things being part of your life again:).

Quote
No, sorry. Just three of her in armour at various points in her career, and the one of her in her party dress that Phil designed for her. Wouldn't be too hard to do, though; hmmm...

I definitely smell the paint, though.
It's either that, or there's a bad smell around here:D!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;855951
Today marks the third anniversary of my brain bleed, on September 15th, 2012. I am still alive; my blood pressure has been 'human normal' now for the better part of two and a half years. I am doing well, aside from not being able to tolerate extreme temperatures (and fools, Gronan says) and being tired most of the time, so I won't complain.

The whacking big scar on the back of my head where they drilled into my skull and vacuumed it out - it made the oddest noise, from where I was sitting at the time - still itches, and I have to wear a fancy hat when it's cold to keep my head warm.

Life is good; I'm still here. :)

A bit late to the party, but congratulations for surviving it with almost no damage!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;856045
Thank you, everybody - just happy to be here!

The rotary saw made the weirdest noise; it was very close to the resonant frequency of my skull, and I thought my fillings were going to fly out. And yes, it was a local, not a general; the brain feels no pain, and they needed to make sure that they weren't taking out anything important with the wet vac.

Dialog from what we refer to as 'The Incident':

Paramedic One: "This guy's 220 over 110!"
Paramedic Two: "Shut up. That's his wife and daughter next to you."
Pramedics Three through Six: "Here we go!", as Firefighters One through Eight hauled me out the door.

Moral of the story - get your blood pressure checked regularly. And avoid as much stress in tour life as you can, too.

(PS - From the Missus: "And he made us clean up the office while we were waiting for the Fire Department to arrive, too. Like we had nothing else to do, and like he had nothing else to worry about. Some people's children. His dad was that way, too." Yes, dear. Thank you, dear.)

I'm not sure I understood all the nuances in the dialogue...but that's fine, no need to explain.
And let me second Gronan, I'm glad the wet vac operator was paying attention, too;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 19, 2015, 05:16:55 PM
With 60K+ years of history, how much did the detailed depth of history ever really matter in game?

I was looking something up earlier and saw a player talking about a convention game they played in where the ancient languages
and art were detailed by the (rather well known proponent of Tekumel) GM and the player didn't feel that the level of detail added anything critical.
While they did think it was flavorful, the time might have been better spent on the characters actually doing something.

Was this only important to the Professor's Other play group?

How much did it matter to your play group and the players you have GM'ed for?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 19, 2015, 10:35:34 PM
Somewhere back a while ago, Chirine was wondering how I thought things had changed since the early 80s.

Well, of course, now we have the Internet.  But that's tricky because it's hard to tell sometimes if an opinion popular on the Internet is really popular, or if there's a small number of really noisy people who think that way.  I call this the "Bandar-Log Syndrome," for those of you up on your Kipling.

However, the greatest difference I've noticed has literary roots.  Briefly put... Sword & Sorcery is dead.  Oh, sure, the books are still out there, but Arnie's two CONAN movies of the 80s were the last gasp of S&S in popular culture.  "Epic Quest Fantasy" -- what Will Shetterly dubbed "The Magical Doohickey and the Sharp Pointy Thing" -- has won.  Big time.  And that's pretty much all that people know.

This has had a huge effect on gaming in my observation, in real life, with actual gaming groups.  Briefly... nobody knows how to find adventures any more.  The notion of Fafhrd and the Mouser hearing about a cursed tower and going off to explore it just because it's cursed is totally beyond them.  I have observed this in several groups that do not know each other.  They are used to adventures being served up on a platter.  Even when I print out and give them Gary's instructions from OD&D --

 "Obtaining such news is usually merely a matter of making the rounds of the local taverns and inns, buying a round of drinks (10-60 Gold Pieces), slipping the barman a few coins (1-10 Gold Pieces) and learning what is going on."

... actually finding adventure is utterly beyond them.  They have been trained to expect a story to drop into their laps, and expecting them to find their own excitement has proven to be frustrating and boring for all concerned.

"Let's fight pirates."
"Okay, there's a river port here... let's go talk to people."

It doesn't seem that hard.  But it's utterly alien to a lot of players these days.

So I have observed.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on September 19, 2015, 11:04:56 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;856747
Somewhere back a while ago, Chirine was wondering how I thought things had changed since the early 80s.

Well, of course, now we have the Internet.  But that's tricky because it's hard to tell sometimes if an opinion popular on the Internet is really popular, or if there's a small number of really noisy people who think that way.  I call this the "Bandar-Log Syndrome," for those of you up on your Kipling.

However, the greatest difference I've noticed has literary roots.  Briefly put... Sword & Sorcery is dead.  Oh, sure, the books are still out there, but Arnie's two CONAN movies of the 80s were the last gasp of S&S in popular culture.  "Epic Quest Fantasy" -- what Will Shetterly dubbed "The Magical Doohickey and the Sharp Pointy Thing" -- has won.  Big time.  And that's pretty much all that people know.

This has had a huge effect on gaming in my observation, in real life, with actual gaming groups.  Briefly... nobody knows how to find adventures any more.  The notion of Fafhrd and the Mouser hearing about a cursed tower and going off to explore it just because it's cursed is totally beyond them.  I have observed this in several groups that do not know each other.  They are used to adventures being served up on a platter.  Even when I print out and give them Gary's instructions from OD&D --

 "Obtaining such news is usually merely a matter of making the rounds of the local taverns and inns, buying a round of drinks (10-60 Gold Pieces), slipping the barman a few coins (1-10 Gold Pieces) and learning what is going on."

... actually finding adventure is utterly beyond them.  They have been trained to expect a story to drop into their laps, and expecting them to find their own excitement has proven to be frustrating and boring for all concerned.

"Let's fight pirates."
"Okay, there's a river port here... let's go talk to people."

It doesn't seem that hard.  But it's utterly alien to a lot of players these days.

So I have observed.

I call it the "swing by the DM's Bait Shop to buy an Adventure Hook" problem.  The players go about the motions of exploring a city, town or area but they're just going down the "Laundry List of Genre Things We Know We're Supposed To Do Until The Story Activates" it's like running around town in a MMO looking for the NPCs with the Quest Here Symbol above their head.

If there were a Big Bad in town, the last thing you'd want to do is walk in and declare yourselves Adventurers, you're getting poisoned the second night in.

Epic Fantasy, Narrative Logic, Computer Games all play a part, but you're right, the wandering hero who makes his own adventures simply by Getting Into Shit has gone away.

However, to be honest, you get a party of S&S heroes Getting Into Shit and as a DM you're herding cats with everyone doing their own thing.  Of course the Sword and Sorcery answer is some version of "Ninjas Attack" to focus the players on something, anything, as a group, but you do that too often, then they just wait around for Ninjas to Attack. Cyberpunk games or any other type of game where you're an assortment of individuals as opposed to a "genre-appropriate functional unit" have similar problems.

The answer though is a balancing act, not an Amusement Park.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 20, 2015, 12:03:09 AM
Quote from: rawma;856358
And today marks the second anniversary of my surgery.

Same here, I am happy to say, although I have to use ;)


At least you're here! :)

Bonus time, as my dad said after New Guinea in 1943... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 20, 2015, 12:06:53 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;856519

I'm not sure I understood all the nuances in the dialogue...but that's fine, no need to explain.


My blood pressure was about twice human normal, I had lost sight, smell, taste, vision, and all motor control. I was basically dead on the of the Tekumel Foundation's office, where I'd been installing a door knob for them.

My daughter and wife were right next to the paramedic when he was basically saying I was dead.

The rest of the station crew and the remaining paramedics thought I had a chance, so off we went to get my head drilled and drained.

Yes, I am your basic Undead Lich... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 20, 2015, 12:11:58 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;856747
It doesn't seem that hard.  But it's utterly alien to a lot of players these days.

So I have observed.
Interesting. Some good hypotheses on the why too. I wonder if part of the why is just that people in general are lazy and having an adventure drop in your lap is about as effortless a way to find an adventure as there can be.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 20, 2015, 12:24:56 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;856700
With 60K+ years of history, how much did the detailed depth of history ever really matter in game?

I was looking something up earlier and saw a player talking about a convention game they played in where the ancient languages
and art were detailed by the (rather well known proponent of Tekumel) GM and the player didn't feel that the level of detail added anything critical.
While they did think it was flavorful, the time might have been better spent on the characters actually doing something.

Was this only important to the Professor's Other play group?

How much did it matter to your play group and the players you have GM'ed for?
=


In game, not a lot. Phil was always delighted to talk about things he'd done, been to, and seen over the years, as well as his fannish doings in his youth. However, he'd do this only if we wanted to talk about it, or we were taking a break from the game play. In game, it just didn't come up very often, unless it was An Important Plot Point. Phil expected me to know this stuff as a matter of course, as I was the guy who was suppose to know this stuff for the group.

Out of game, like when we'd come over on a weekend or something, we talked about this stuff constantly. Most of us were F/SF fans, and having that look into the foundations of fandom and the creative process that Phil was having was utterly fascinating. (Like our talking to Gordy about the Dorsai, for example.) We loved to hear his stories, and he loved to tell them We learned from him in the living room what our players would have learned in the Temple academy, and you know, I think that was one of the best parts of playing with him.

I can see what you're saying, too. I've had the same reaction to my GM'ing at conventions, where my very fast-paced and very active style of gaming is contrasted with the almost 'academic' style of play that a lot of modern Tekumel GMs have; I've also seen this in my own game room, where guest GMs do this exact same thing. There's this notion that 'proper' Tekumel has to be run in an almost totally detail-obsessive manner, and every little nuance of every little detail has to be gone over and over and over with the players. I've seen players fall asleep at the table when this kind of play is going on; if I can say one thing over the years, people don't fall asleep when I'm running the show.

Neither of Phil's early groups had this issue; Phil limited himself to the details only if they were needed by the game, and liked to move along with the story. Keep in mind that there were really six game groups that he ran; the 'proto-group' at CSA in the 1973-74 period, the original Elmwood Place group in the 1974-77 period, and then the split to create the Monday and Thursday Groups. These later dissolved into two very different groups, with most of the original players being gone by the early 1990s.

The massive emphasis on detail seems to have gotten started in the middle 1990s, and it's become the public perception of what Tekumel is like for most gamers. (See also The Pundit's observations on this subject.) I don't swamp players with detail; unless it's something vital, I just don't push it - after the game is fine, but not during the game session. I normally tell somebody if they would know it in the game, but otherwise I don't obsess on details - I tell people that they will pick up on it as we go along.

I agree with the player - you are there to play, not go to Tsolyani Language Camp. It certainly does not add anything crucial to the game, and really slows the game down...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 20, 2015, 02:20:29 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;856753

However, to be honest, you get a party of S&S heroes Getting Into Shit and as a DM you're herding cats with everyone doing their own thing.  Of course the Sword and Sorcery answer is some version of "Ninjas Attack" to focus the players on something, anything, as a group, but you do that too often, then they just wait around for Ninjas to Attack. Cyberpunk games or any other type of game where you're an assortment of individuals as opposed to a "genre-appropriate functional unit" have similar problems.

The answer though is a balancing act, not an Amusement Park.


Well, the game is "whoever shows up that night," not "band of heroes welded at the hip."  The point of our game is to have adventures, and it's never been a problem for the four to six players to quickly agree on what type of trouble they want to find for the night.  If somebody is pursuing an ongoing situation I'll ref for them separately as needs be.

Which is another thing that's changed.  "BAND OF HEROES ONE AND INDIVISIBLE WELDED TOGETHER AT THE HIP" seems to be not just the default but the only way to play any more; the notion of "four to fifty players who play at various times in various combinations" seems to have vanished like the steam locomotive.

Of course more than one person has asked how Gary got 50 people together at the same time, so a lot of people have no levels in "figuring out the bloody obvious."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on September 20, 2015, 02:06:46 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;856747
Somewhere back a while ago, Chirine was wondering how I thought things had changed since the early 80s.

Well, of course, now we have the Internet.  But that's tricky because it's hard to tell sometimes if an opinion popular on the Internet is really popular, or if there's a small number of really noisy people who think that way.  I call this the "Bandar-Log Syndrome," for those of you up on your Kipling.

However, the greatest difference I've noticed has literary roots.  Briefly put... Sword & Sorcery is dead.  Oh, sure, the books are still out there, but Arnie's two CONAN movies of the 80s were the last gasp of S&S in popular culture.  "Epic Quest Fantasy" -- what Will Shetterly dubbed "The Magical Doohickey and the Sharp Pointy Thing" -- has won.  Big time.  And that's pretty much all that people know.

This has had a huge effect on gaming in my observation, in real life, with actual gaming groups.  Briefly... nobody knows how to find adventures any more.  The notion of Fafhrd and the Mouser hearing about a cursed tower and going off to explore it just because it's cursed is totally beyond them.  I have observed this in several groups that do not know each other.  They are used to adventures being served up on a platter.  Even when I print out and give them Gary's instructions from OD&D --

 "Obtaining such news is usually merely a matter of making the rounds of the local taverns and inns, buying a round of drinks (10-60 Gold Pieces), slipping the barman a few coins (1-10 Gold Pieces) and learning what is going on."

... actually finding adventure is utterly beyond them.  They have been trained to expect a story to drop into their laps, and expecting them to find their own excitement has proven to be frustrating and boring for all concerned.

"Let's fight pirates."
"Okay, there's a river port here... let's go talk to people."

It doesn't seem that hard.  But it's utterly alien to a lot of players these days.

So I have observed.

Fun fact, I've found that there's a significant minority of gamers that still get it. Some of them aren't even S&S fans. They just have ideas, and aren't interested in following a GM's plot, so they go out and look for ways to achieve their goals.
It's those people I prefer to play with, and the rest of my players just learn from them:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;856760
My blood pressure was about twice human normal, I had lost sight, smell, taste, vision, and all motor control. I was basically dead on the of the Tekumel Foundation's office, where I'd been installing a door knob for them.

My daughter and wife were right next to the paramedic when he was basically saying I was dead.

The rest of the station crew and the remaining paramedics thought I had a chance, so off we went to get my head drilled and drained.

Yes, I am your basic Undead Lich... :)

No, I understood that. What I wasn't sure is who was made to clean what;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 20, 2015, 02:31:54 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;856700
With 60K+ years of history, how much did the detailed depth of history ever really matter in game?

I was looking something up earlier and saw a player talking about a convention game they played in where the ancient languages
and art were detailed by the (rather well known proponent of Tekumel) GM and the player didn't feel that the level of detail added anything critical.
While they did think it was flavorful, the time might have been better spent on the characters actually doing something.

Was this only important to the Professor's Other play group?

How much did it matter to your play group and the players you have GM'ed for?
=


I think it mattered mostly to Phil.  Remember, he spent something like 40 years building Tekumel as a world BEFORE I introduced him to D&D.  It was obviously something he loved doing, and I think it also gave him satisfaction as a game master to know that wherever we went, he knew what was going on.  In my fantasy games there are always huge areas I haven't made up anything for and I think most are like that.  But Phil built Tekumel first, THEN played in it.

It's part of what makes Middle Earth so engrossing.  All throughout The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, the kindly old Professor gives us glimpses of the First and Second Ages.  "Deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us, but they are gone."

It's one of the things the movies did actually manage in a few places, like the overgrown pillars and tumbled down statues in Lothlorien; those visual touches gave the feeling of great, great age.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 20, 2015, 11:35:51 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;856760
My blood pressure was about twice human normal, I had lost sight, smell, taste, vision, and all motor control. I was basically dead on the of the Tekumel Foundation's office, where I'd been installing a door knob for them.

My daughter and wife were right next to the paramedic when he was basically saying I was dead.

The rest of the station crew and the remaining paramedics thought I had a chance, so off we went to get my head drilled and drained.

Yes, I am your basic Undead Lich... :)


Fortunately, you smell better than most.  Also, you seem to have managed the spell that allows you to eat human food (saw him snarf a chicken cutlet sammich with my own baby blue eyes, folks) unlike that story by... Clark Ashton Smith, was it... the undead lich drank blood but couldn't digest it, so just got more and more bloated with clotted, rotting blood until the venal last priest grabbed a silver paper knife and stabbed it and it burst and all the reeking, clotted mess spilled out...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 20, 2015, 11:37:23 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;856816
Fun fact, I've found that there's a significant minority of gamers that still get it. Some of them aren't even S&S fans. They just have ideas, and aren't interested in following a GM's plot, so they go out and look for ways to achieve their goals.
It's those people I prefer to play with, and the rest of my players just learn from them:).


They're out there, but recruiting from players of later editions can be very frustrating all around.  Non gamers are often the most fun to game with.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 20, 2015, 11:43:02 PM
Another thing I've noticed... whole bunches of people, at least on line, have all the sense of humor of a bent bicycle wheel.  Now, this might be the "Bandar-Log" factor.  But instead of saying "Boy, I sometimes get tired of the dumb jokes Gary put in the DMG," you get pages of pages of "OH THIS IS SO AWFUL AND IT BREAKS MY IMMERSION AND IT'S HORRIBLE AND HE IS A BAD MAN FOR PUTTING IN JOKES."

Now, arguments over the appropriateness of humor in wargames goes back for decades at least; for every army commanded by "Sir Hugh Jarce," you had somebody else kyoodling about how that was "silly" and "frivolous."  To which the usual response was, "Yes it is," and then beat the living hell out of the guy who objected to the funny name.  (I have a WW1 German pilot named Billy Pilsner, and a WW2 German pilot named Hermann Thudpuckre.)

But the roaring and shrieking of those who think humor "breaks immersion" seems to have gotten much louder over the years.  I don't know if they've increased in number or merely volume.

As I've said many times, "If Gary had known that 35 years later people would still be getting their peeners in knots over his dumb jokes, he would have put even more of them in!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 20, 2015, 11:55:31 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;856747
Somewhere back a while ago, Chirine was wondering how I thought things had changed since the early 80s. - snipped for now... -


I've been thinking about this for the past couple of days, and i'll have a longer reply tomorrow - it's been a long weekend, with back to back football games at work and a tour group in tonight after work.

Hold this thought; I'll be back at it after I get Second Daughter home and some sleep... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 21, 2015, 12:02:34 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;856816

No, I understood that. What I wasn't sure is who was made to clean what;).


Oh! Sorry!

I had been installing a door lock and knob in the office door for the Tekumel Foundation, after about a month of them trying to make a decision on what kind of door knob they wanted. I got the thing for them, and came into to the office to install the thing and found that one of the Directors had salvaged a different door, and that they wanted me to use that one. Never mind that all the holes for the hardware and the rebates for the hinges were now in the wrong place; I was told to shut up and get on with the job for them.

(Directors do not do manual labor; that's "a problem for the staff.")

When I collapsed, I had had power and hand tools all over the place as I was doing the install, and I persuaded the wife and daughter to clean up the sawdust, wood shavings, and tools and take them with us. They did, so we left the place a lot cleaner then we found it; they even cleaned up all the debris from the paramedics.

Sorry about the lack of clarity!:o
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 21, 2015, 12:05:11 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;856820
I think it mattered mostly to Phil.  Remember, he spent something like 40 years building Tekumel as a world BEFORE I introduced him to D&D.  It was obviously something he loved doing, and I think it also gave him satisfaction as a game master to know that wherever we went, he knew what was going on.  In my fantasy games there are always huge areas I haven't made up anything for and I think most are like that.  But Phil built Tekumel first, THEN played in it.

It's part of what makes Middle Earth so engrossing.  All throughout The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, the kindly old Professor gives us glimpses of the First and Second Ages.  "Deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us, but they are gone."

It's one of the things the movies did actually manage in a few places, like the overgrown pillars and tumbled down statues in Lothlorien; those visual touches gave the feeling of great, great age.


Oh, agreed! Phil took his world very seriously, and loved to work up all the little details. That was part of the fun for me personally, documenting it all.

He just never seemed to let the details get in the way of the adventure. His word-pictures were wonderful!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 21, 2015, 12:08:34 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;856910
Fortunately, you smell better than most.  Also, you seem to have managed the spell that allows you to eat human food (saw him snarf a chicken cutlet sammich with my own baby blue eyes, folks) unlike that story by... Clark Ashton Smith, was it... the undead lich drank blood but couldn't digest it, so just got more and more bloated with clotted, rotting blood until the venal last priest grabbed a silver paper knife and stabbed it and it burst and all the reeking, clotted mess spilled out...


Chirine's First Law: Bathe.

There are two more laws, but they simply amplify that first one.

Burp. Just finished some nice roast chicken; the tour was had very nice people, and I got to do a pretty big show-and-tell. Great fun, and a good time was had by all. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 21, 2015, 12:09:49 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;856911
They're out there, but recruiting from players of later editions can be very frustrating all around.  Non gamers are often the most fun to game with.


Agreed; I've had the same experience.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 21, 2015, 12:10:59 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;856912
Another thing I've noticed... whole bunches of people, at least on line, have all the sense of humor of a bent bicycle wheel.  Now, this might be the "Bandar-Log" factor.  But instead of saying "Boy, I sometimes get tired of the dumb jokes Gary put in the DMG," you get pages of pages of "OH THIS IS SO AWFUL AND IT BREAKS MY IMMERSION AND IT'S HORRIBLE AND HE IS A BAD MAN FOR PUTTING IN JOKES."

Now, arguments over the appropriateness of humor in wargames goes back for decades at least; for every army commanded by "Sir Hugh Jarce," you had somebody else kyoodling about how that was "silly" and "frivolous."  To which the usual response was, "Yes it is," and then beat the living hell out of the guy who objected to the funny name.  (I have a WW1 German pilot named Billy Pilsner, and a WW2 German pilot named Hermann Thudpuckre.)

But the roaring and shrieking of those who think humor "breaks immersion" seems to have gotten much louder over the years.  I don't know if they've increased in number or merely volume.

As I've said many times, "If Gary had known that 35 years later people would still be getting their peeners in knots over his dumb jokes, he would have put even more of them in!"


Yep. More on this later, as well...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 21, 2015, 12:38:37 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;856912
Now, arguments over the appropriateness of humor in wargames goes back for decades at least; for every army commanded by "Sir Hugh Jarce," you had somebody else kyoodling about how that was "silly" and "frivolous."  To which the usual response was, "Yes it is," and then beat the living hell out of the guy who objected to the funny name.
That is way too hardcore war gaming for me. I almost always draw the line well before that. Except maybe for * below.

Quote
But the roaring and shrieking of those who think humor "breaks immersion" seems to have gotten much louder over the years.
Depends on two things.

1) Was it even funny? The 99th time that someone does the exact same Monty Python quote? Just not as funny. Now if it is something that is actually funny and it is something your character actually said in game. Then welcome to the table!

2) How much is it distracting from play? I invited you (generic you) to come play a character. Ending up hosting an amateur stand up comedy night might just make me rethink that separation between what I do to your character and what I'm going to do to you. *

A good friend of mine likes comic character names. The difference between Bob and 99% of the folks who try to do that is that he is actually clever about the names he comes up with.

A dwarf named Ferrik Oxhide. In Glorantha. Where an Iron Dwarf is an actual thing. :cool:

Someone who wants to name their character Biggus Dickus. And we aren't even in Rome or playing Romans. Because we are playing the Three Musketeers or Boot Hill. Fuck that guy.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 21, 2015, 01:49:16 PM
About names...
Character, Lineage, Clan and Locations
Were they all "In Setting Language" or was "meanings" used?
Some creatures for example, there is Tletlakha - "the Mouth With Eyes"
and Haqel - "the Toothed Dweller Below"

Were nicknames or aliases used for characters?
For example was "Glorious General" and other less official titles common
"Old Ditch-digger"

Were clan names like "Blue Wheel" or the Tsolyanu equivalent words?

What about locations such as ...
"The Hall of Echoing Chants of Praise"
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 21, 2015, 07:45:43 PM
Quote from: Bren;856926
That is way too hardcore war gaming for me. I almost always draw the line well before that. Except maybe for * below.

Depends on two things.

1) Was it even funny? The 99th time that someone does the exact same Monty Python quote? Just not as funny. Now if it is something that is actually funny and it is something your character actually said in game. Then welcome to the table!

2) How much is it distracting from play? I invited you (generic you) to come play a character. Ending up hosting an amateur stand up comedy night might just make me rethink that separation between what I do to your character and what I'm going to do to you. *

A good friend of mine likes comic character names. The difference between Bob and 99% of the folks who try to do that is that he is actually clever about the names he comes up with.

A dwarf named Ferrik Oxhide. In Glorantha. Where an Iron Dwarf is an actual thing. :cool:

Someone who wants to name their character Biggus Dickus. And we aren't even in Rome or playing Romans. Because we are playing the Three Musketeers or Boot Hill. Fuck that guy.


Context, once again, is everything.

Playing PENDRAGON, I would not name my character "Sir Loin of Beef."

Playing D&D, I would, in view of the fact that the creators of the game and their groups had characters like Funk I, King of the Orcs, Swenny the Great, the Wizard Gaylord, Sir Fang the Vampire, Yrag, Xagyg, Bombadil, Drawmij, Otto, Bigby, Digby, Rigby, Sigby... hell, some little pissant even named his character "Gronan of Simmerya."

Careful management of expectations is the key to success.  If you don't want dumb character names, tell your players "no dumb character names."

Et cetera.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 21, 2015, 09:53:35 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;857071
Playing PENDRAGON, I would not name my character "Sir Loin of Beef."
Then we're good.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 22, 2015, 03:27:50 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;857018
About names...
Character, Lineage, Clan and Locations
Were they all "In Setting Language" or was "meanings" used?
Some creatures for example, there is Tletlakha - "the Mouth With Eyes"
and Haqel - "the Toothed Dweller Below"

Were nicknames or aliases used for characters?
For example was "Glorious General" and other less official titles common
"Old Ditch-digger"

Were clan names like "Blue Wheel" or the Tsolyanu equivalent words?

What about locations such as ...
"The Hall of Echoing Chants of Praise"
=


Hmmm. Well, when we played with Phil,  the 'in setting language' stuff was used as needed for things - Phil did not ram it down our throats while we were gaming. Normally, he didn't name creatures we encountered; he'd describe them to us, and then sit back and be amused while we madly thumbed through EPT in a panic trying to identify what was about to kill us this time. Once we'd figured out what it was, then he'd use the 'proper name' for the thing, and we were expected to remember it - it was part of our living in the world, and we'd know these things. Eventually, we all knew what a Thunru'u was, and we didn't need a translation. (We needed a mortar, usually.)

We did not use 'nicknames', as they are not common in Phil's conception of his Tekumel. We Vimuhla people would refer to the Ksarul people as 'squareheads', from their square-topped headdresses, and they'd return the favor by referring to us as 'matchheads', from our flame crests. This was only in 'table talk', amongst the players, and not amongst the player-characters.

The Custom of the House:

When the player-characters were taking to each other, and not the players, we'd be polite and use the appropriate term with each other. (You could always tell when the PC was talking, and when the player was talking.) When other people were around, I used 'Glorious General' to address the man; it really is one of his titles, from his getting the Imperial Gold of Glory and his promotion. It showed my respect for him to other officers and people, and was polite. He, in turn, addressed me as 'Staff Kasi', my title, when we were 'in public', for the same reasons. The only time when we addressed each other by our names, Chirine and Korunme, was when we were 'in private', usually in our quarters. If he was addressing me by my name in public, it was because he was making a pretty powerful statement to his line officers that he considered me a trusted confidante and friend, and that I spoke with his voice.

Kathy Marshall, Princess Vrisa Vishetru of Saa Alliqui, was always addressed 'in public' as 'Lady' or 'Princess'; only 'in private' did we use her name, again as a mark of our position in relation to her. Also again, we could use her name if and when she permitted it, again normally 'in private'; it was a mark of her favor and her trust in us as friends that we were invited to do so. I can think of at least two very-long-time players in the group who were not granted this favor; Vrisa simply didn't like them enough to allow them to use her name. Kathy got along with them just fine, but Vrisa didn't.

Other players were called by their titles or ranks as needed. Jean / Kialain was always 'Lady', as she was Sea Blue, or 'Priestess', as she was a Priestess in the Temple of Ksarul; Ken / Vidlakte was always 'Hereksa' or 'Commander', as he was the officer commanding our little section of doughty marines (he coud not be called 'captain', as that was Dave / Harchar's title); etc., etc.

We did this, starting very very early on, so that one could tell instantly that one was speaking to a PC, not a player. If you used a players's real name, and this included Phil, then the conversation was between the players and not the PCs. It made things a lot easier for all of us, and for Phil.

(There was one odd exception; Phil always called me 'Chirine', both in and out of game. "Chirine, when will you be done to mow the lawn this week?", and so on. Having said that, we always knew when he was talking to the guy at the end of the table, and when he was talking to the Priest of Lord Vimuhla; his voice would be different, in timbre and intonation. 'Me as player' was always at a slightly higher pitch and more rapid enunciation, and 'me as PC' was always pithced lower and more slowly - more formally, really.)

Clan names were never in Tsolyani; they were always in translation. Proper names, like the Tlakotani or the Vriddi, were the only 'in setting language' names for clans that I ever heard Phil use.

Formal place names tended to get used once, and then short versions after that introduction.

Does this help? Once again, I have to say that fluency in Tsolyani was not ever a part of our gaming with Phil. it amused him when we tried to learn, but it never figured in game play.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 22, 2015, 08:09:45 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;857125
Does this help? Once again, I have to say that fluency in Tsolyani was not ever a part of our gaming with Phil. it amused him when we tried to learn, but it never figured in game play.


In our world where there are a lot of people with the same name, nicknames are not uncommon.
Just verifying if this was the case in Tekumel.

In My Opinion, quite the disservice was done by those who insisted difficult/unfamiliar words be required to play "correctly".

People seem to prefer the familiar no matter how much they may claim otherwise. So, the more things that are unfamiliar, the harder it is to get people to engage.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 22, 2015, 10:57:51 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;857134
In our world where there are a lot of people with the same name, nicknames are not uncommon.
Just verifying if this was the case in Tekumel.

In My Opinion, quite the disservice was done by those who insisted difficult/unfamiliar words be required to play "correctly".

People seem to prefer the familiar no matter how much they may claim otherwise. So, the more things that are unfamiliar, the harder it is to get people to engage.
=


Yes, I'd agree with that, especially in our Western culture. Phil was always trying to remind us that we were in a very different culture when we played in his Tekumel.

Agreed. The moment I heard about the language lectures being done at conventions by some of the well-known proponents of Tekumel, I knew we were in trouble. And sure enough, I started seeing on-line complaints from people who had been rolling right along in a very fun game set in Tekumel (both in RPGs and LARPs) at conventions; the game had come to a dead stop when somebody started correcting a player's pronunciation. Killed the game right there, they were saying.

Again, I'd agree. One of the things I do in my games that always lands me in hot water with the people who do this kind of 'language camp' approach is I tell new players not to worry about pronunciation - they'll pick it up as they play. I also tell them not to be too worried by the fine details, either; they'll pick it up. The important thing is to get them started playing; I keep 'char-gen' to a bare minimum, for example. There's a certain amount of sputtering and pearl-clutching that goes on over this, and I keep having to point out that we developed our characters by playing them, and not simply by rolling them. There was none of the 'one bad roll ruined my character'; when I rolled Chirine up in 1976, I got a 'charisma' of 12 on d100, on a scale of 1-100. I dealt with it, and his looks became a plot point for both Phil and I.

Sigh.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 22, 2015, 11:24:09 AM
And no, Glorious General, I haven't forgotten your posts; I'm trying to make my replies sound coherent... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 22, 2015, 11:34:45 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;857159
...the game had come to a dead stop when somebody started correcting a player's pronunciation. Killed the game right there, they were saying.
Pronunciation is a tricky thing.

It's nice if names are pronounced correctly. Yet, people vary in how good they are at doing that. And it gets more difficult if the player isn't fluent in the language. So as the GM I try to pretend that the name was pronounced correctly by the player and I'll use the correct pronunciation myself, which I suppose could be perceived as correcting.

On the other hand, some mispronunciations really grate on the ear. The player in AD&D who continually mispronounced Ogre Magi as or-gee ma-gai could use some correction - though Gronan would probably appreciate the humor.

Proper names and titles and pronunciation is something we struggle with in Honor+Intrigue. There are a lot of NPCs, some have multiple praenomens (birth, baptismal, confirmation), a family name, and for nobles one or more title names. They might even have a nickname or by-name on top of all that.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;857159
There was none of the 'one bad roll ruined my character'; when I rolled Chirine up in 1976, I got a 'charisma' of 12 on d100, on a scale of 1-100. I dealt with it, and his looks became a plot point for both Phil and I.

Sigh.
Sounds like Chirine was lucky to live in Tekumal where nicknames are less popular than in Western Culture. He might not have liked what the kids at school called him.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: SapaInca on September 22, 2015, 10:04:18 PM
Hi everyone, long time lurker, first time poster here.

I'm planning to run my own Tékumel soon, and this thread has been a wonderful read. I apologize in advance for my english, non-native and right now a bit drunk :D

Chirine, Gronan and anyone who have experience with EPT, how common was to encounter non-humans in Tékumel? Was it common to have non-human player characters, or was it more usual to have them as retainers/henchmen?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 22, 2015, 10:28:49 PM
Quote from: Bren;857170
On the other hand, some mispronunciations really grate on the ear. The player in AD&D who continually mispronounced Ogre Magi as or-gee ma-gai could use some correction - though Gronan would probably appreciate the humor.

Well if it was really funny, which would depend on delivery.

Gary often called ogres "ogrees".  He also often called rogues "rogwees".  We always called werewolves "waswolves."  Well, not always, but often.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 23, 2015, 02:27:36 AM
Quote from: Bren;857170
Pronunciation is a tricky thing.

It's nice if names are pronounced correctly. Yet, people vary in how good they are at doing that. And it gets more difficult if the player isn't fluent in the language. So as the GM I try to pretend that the name was pronounced correctly by the player and I'll use the correct pronunciation myself, which I suppose could be perceived as correcting.

On the other hand, some mispronunciations really grate on the ear. The player in AD&D who continually mispronounced Ogre Magi as or-gee ma-gai could use some correction - though Gronan would probably appreciate the humor.

Proper names and titles and pronunciation is something we struggle with in Honor+Intrigue. There are a lot of NPCs, some have multiple praenomens (birth, baptismal, confirmation), a family name, and for nobles one or more title names. They might even have a nickname or by-name on top of all that.


Sounds like Chirine was lucky to live in Tekumal where nicknames are less popular than in Western Culture. He might not have liked what the kids at school called him.


Yes, I'd agree with all of your very good points - and I like the very nice way you handle it. I do the same; lead by example.

Chirine never got hassled at the temple academy; the 'back story' is that he took a blunt-force blow to the face while he was with the troops putting down the slave revolt that Gary Rudolph got started in Ferenara when Gary was the fief-holder. The Custom of the House with Phil was that if you didn't get to a healing spell within 24 hours of the injury, you were stuck with it; Chirine wasn't able to get to help soon enough - he was too busy - and so has a nose that's more then a little bashed in.

When Kathy Marshall did his picture, she based him on an Italian mercenary with a similarly bashed-in look.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 23, 2015, 02:33:59 AM
Quote from: SapaInca;857238
Hi everyone, long time lurker, first time poster here.

I'm planning to run my own Tékumel soon, and this thread has been a wonderful read. I apologize in advance for my english, non-native and right now a bit drunk :D

Chirine, Gronan and anyone who have experience with EPT, how common was to encounter non-humans in Tékumel? Was it common to have non-human player characters, or was it more usual to have them as retainers/henchmen?


Welcome aboard! :)

The 'friendly' non-humans are very common in human cities; the hostile ones you have to seek out in the more desolate parts of the world, or in the Underworlds. They are fun to have around, especially with a good GM or player. Most groups of players tend to be human, so you see a lot of non-humans as the 'hired help' and employees.

In Phil's campaign, I can only think of three: Dave Romm played a Tinaliya (to great effect!), Victor Raymond a Pe Choi, and Joe Zottola a Shen. In my oen group, I do have a Pe Choi player, and my tour group that was in on Sunday has a Pe Choi player and a Chima player.

Generally, I advise that anyone wanting to play a non-human have no small amount of acting ability and do all the research that they can on their subject. It just seems to work better, that way.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 23, 2015, 02:52:03 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;856747
Somewhere back a while ago, Chirine was wondering how I thought things had changed since the early 80s.

(snipped, if that's all right)

But it's utterly alien to a lot of players these days. So I have observed.


I've been thinking about this quite a lot since you posted it. (I had a twenty-hour day Sunday, which is why I'm taking so long to get back to you.) I do agree with your points; I've noticed the same thing in my observations of game groups - and you'll be amused (or saddened) to hear that Phil said the same things about his 1990's players; he groused a lot in his letters that he felt like he was "Phil TV" for them", and was more of an entertainment module than a GM or storyteller.

I had much the same issues with First and Second Daughters (the first of five adopted kids we had) when putting them through high school. Books were passe, unless they could be read on the Internet; the overwhelming mantra was the 'tl;dr'. Getting them to interact with each other and the other players in the game sessions was a real chore, at first, and I really had to work at it to get them to look up from the smart phones to engage with the people across the table.

I think you and I come from a different time and place, and a very different world. We all read lots and lots of books, and devoured information about what we were gaming. We all started out from about he same 'database' of information, I think.

Back in 2002, when I started the current incarnation of my game group, I set out to recreate the vast library of books that Phil had introduced us to. Like Payne-Gallway's "The Crossbow", which was virtually the standard text of the gamer world we lived in. It's now largely unknown...

There's a guy who lambasted me on the Tekumel Yahoo group over my set of miniatures rules, and then reprinted my rules with the numbers 'corrected' to make them "more realistic" as he told me. His biggest gripe was the range of the Tekumelyani longbow; it was totally unrealistic, he told me (in the strongest possible terms) as the English longbow didn't have anywhere near that kind of range and accuracy.

I pointed out to him that Phil had based the longbow of his world on the Turkish longbow, which is not a simple self bow but a compound bow. The author of "The Crossbow" had sampled some of the examples of this weapon that are in the Topkopi Palace Museum in Istanbul (Constantinople, for us Byzantines), and Phil had used the actual data for his longbow.

Of course, the guy had never read the book, didn't know that it existed, and had a fit that I was citing it. Never heard anything back from him, after that, but you can still find his rules on line.

I just don't think people read all that much, any more...

I dunno...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 23, 2015, 03:00:26 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;856912
Another thing I've noticed... whole bunches of people, at least on line, have all the sense of humor of a bent bicycle wheel.  (and snipped again, sorry)


Well, yes. We had a lot of laughs, back then, and it never did seem to break our sense of what is being called 'immersion' these days. If anything, we were a lot more immersed in our games then people seem to be these days - who made and wore suits of armor to conventions? Is that 'immersion'? Is speaking as our PCs 'in game' and trying very hard to be properly polite 'immersion'?

I genuinely don't know.

Things just seem a lot more 'serious' these days. Back when you and I played, both in RPGs and miniatures, things seemed to be a lot less serious and a lot more full of laughter.

Could we run The Great Mos Eisely Spaceport Raid in today's gaming culture?

I don't know. I would like to think we could, but I would not go into it with anything in the way of expectations. I mean, I have run 'Braunsteins' quite a few times in recent years, but it's always a challenge to get the players in the right frame of mind...

I don't know; I just don't know...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 23, 2015, 08:12:29 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;857271

I don't know; I just don't know...

Even more reason to get your book(s) finished and the times captured in print.
=
http://www.patmcnees.com/telling_your_story_29161.htm
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Tod13 on September 23, 2015, 09:58:37 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;857270


I had much the same issues with First and Second Daughters (the first of five adopted kids we had) when putting them through high school. Books were passe, unless they could be read on the Internet; the overwhelming mantra was the 'tl;dr'. Getting them to interact with each other and the other players in the game sessions was a real chore, at first, and I really had to work at it to get them to look up from the smart phones to engage with the people across the table.

I just don't think people read all that much, any more...


I think things like this vary a lot depending on the individual. My three players, all female, are 28, 21, and 31. They are all voracious readers and really smart. For them the engaging with the other players, and me as GM/NPCs, is the whole point of the game.

I was telling them about looking for a system for our next game and they all looked at me blankly. My wife goes, "we don't really care about the system/mechanics, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the role playing". :D She thinks it is so funny, the amount of time I spend researching and reading systems.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on September 23, 2015, 10:52:07 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;856911
They're out there, but recruiting from players of later editions can be very frustrating all around.  Non gamers are often the most fun to game with.
I can confirm that. Almost everybody in my current group started playing with me, but people that have cut their gaming teeth on a certain period of games are the hardest to play with.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;856917
Oh! Sorry!

I had been installing a door lock and knob in the office door for the Tekumel Foundation, after about a month of them trying to make a decision on what kind of door knob they wanted. I got the thing for them, and came into to the office to install the thing and found that one of the Directors had salvaged a different door, and that they wanted me to use that one. Never mind that all the holes for the hardware and the rebates for the hinges were now in the wrong place; I was told to shut up and get on with the job for them.

(Directors do not do manual labor; that's "a problem for the staff.")

When I collapsed, I had had power and hand tools all over the place as I was doing the install, and I persuaded the wife and daughter to clean up the sawdust, wood shavings, and tools and take them with us. They did, so we left the place a lot cleaner then we found it; they even cleaned up all the debris from the paramedics.

Sorry about the lack of clarity!:o
You're a better man than me, Chirine...
Better in the sense that I wouldn't have cared one bit for the mess, and left it to them to clean it up. Well, not the instruments, these I'd have insisted as well that we take along:).
Of course, my chances of being in the same situation are compounded probability tending towards zero, because I simply don't own such tool;)!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;857270
I've been thinking about this quite a lot since you posted it. (I had a twenty-hour day Sunday, which is why I'm taking so long to get back to you.) I do agree with your points; I've noticed the same thing in my observations of game groups - and you'll be amused (or saddened) to hear that Phil said the same things about his 1990's players; he groused a lot in his letters that he felt like he was "Phil TV" for them", and was more of an entertainment module than a GM or storyteller.

I had much the same issues with First and Second Daughters (the first of five adopted kids we had) when putting them through high school. Books were passe, unless they could be read on the Internet; the overwhelming mantra was the 'tl;dr'. Getting them to interact with each other and the other players in the game sessions was a real chore, at first, and I really had to work at it to get them to look up from the smart phones to engage with the people across the table.

I think you and I come from a different time and place, and a very different world. We all read lots and lots of books, and devoured information about what we were gaming. We all started out from about he same 'database' of information, I think.
I've had a similar experience, but I thought said players were spoilt by the MMOs, frankly:D!

Quote from: Greentongue;857285
Even more reason to get your book(s) finished and the times captured in print.
=
http://www.patmcnees.com/telling_your_story_29161.htm
With this, I totally agree!
Also, any reason to get the book finished is a good reason:p.

Quote from: Tod13;857295
I think things like this vary a lot depending on the individual. My three players, all female, are 28, 21, and 31. They are all voracious readers and really smart. For them the engaging with the other players, and me as GM/NPCs, is the whole point of the game.

I was telling them about looking for a system for our next game and they all looked at me blankly. My wife goes, "we don't really care about the system/mechanics, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the role playing". :D She thinks it is so funny, the amount of time I spend researching and reading systems.
My wife is quite similar. She's a voracious reader and she gets system fast*, she just doesn't care which one we're using, as long as social actions aren't blocked artificially by the GM!

*I mean, she learned Legends of the Wulin while listening to me explaining it to someone else, and she doesn't even plan to play it! That's a system some people have trouble grasping by reading the rulebook.
And I know it's not because of my great skills in explaining stuff:D!
I wonder what would happen if I told people that on TBP.

Either way, yes, voracious reading seems to be the norm among people that would consider playing RPGs these days;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 23, 2015, 10:59:58 AM
Hello. It's been awhile...Question. How easy or hard is it for a noble or high clan member to travel around incognito(but not by magical means)? Are there places for such a person to stay?

Also while on the sakbe road there are places to stop and rest. Are these all outdoors or is it possible to stay in the towers as well?

Thanks,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 24, 2015, 02:46:58 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;857285
Even more reason to get your book(s) finished and the times captured in print.

I think so, too; it's the typing that take the time... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 24, 2015, 02:48:21 AM
Quote from: Tod13;857295
I think things like this vary a lot depending on the individual. My three players, all female, are 28, 21, and 31. They are all voracious readers and really smart. For them the engaging with the other players, and me as GM/NPCs, is the whole point of the game.

I was telling them about looking for a system for our next game and they all looked at me blankly. My wife goes, "we don't really care about the system/mechanics, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the role playing". :D She thinks it is so funny, the amount of time I spend researching and reading systems.


I think I'd agree with this. Some of the college-aged players I had were voracious readers, and enjoyed the chance to come over and read the books on the shelves... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 24, 2015, 02:53:24 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;857297
I can confirm that. Almost everybody in my current group started playing with me, but people that have cut their gaming teeth on a certain period of games are the hardest to play with.


You're a better man than me, Chirine...
Better in the sense that I wouldn't have cared one bit for the mess, and left it to them to clean it up. Well, not the instruments, these I'd have insisted as well that we take along:).
Of course, my chances of being in the same situation are compounded probability tending towards zero, because I simply don't own such tool;)!


I've had a similar experience, but I thought said players were spoilt by the MMOs, frankly:D!


With this, I totally agree!
Also, any reason to get the book finished is a good reason:p.


My wife is quite similar. She's a voracious reader and she gets system fast*, she just doesn't care which one we're using, as long as social actions aren't blocked artificially by the GM!

*I mean, she learned Legends of the Wulin while listening to me explaining it to someone else, and she doesn't even plan to play it! That's a system some people have trouble grasping by reading the rulebook.
And I know it's not because of my great skills in explaining stuff:D!
I wonder what would happen if I told people that on TBP.

Either way, yes, voracious reading seems to be the norm among people that would consider playing RPGs these days;).


Oh! Good observation, there! I've seen the same thing, myself.

Well, I was taught at a very young age to leave the place as clean or cleaner then when I found it. and I was not going to leave anything  like my tools behind; they had to come with me, as they are just too expensive to be cheaply replaced.

I think I'd agree with you about the MMOs, from incidents I've seen.

I'm working on it! :)

Very cool that your wife is such a great reader! Congratulations! :)

And your last point may be right on track, from what I saw on Sunday when the tour group came through the game room... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 24, 2015, 03:17:43 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;857298
Hello. It's been awhile...Question. How easy or hard is it for a noble or high clan member to travel around incognito(but not by magical means)? Are there places for such a person to stay?

Also while on the sakbe road there are places to stop and rest. Are these all outdoors or is it possible to stay in the towers as well?

Thanks,

H :0)


Oooo! Wonderful question!!!

If a high-status person was trying to get around on the quiet, the first thing would be to 'dress down', and wear clothes that were as lower a status as they could get away with, that didn't mark them as the lowest of the low. No flashy gems, nothing that savored of the rich; just a kilt and maybe a tunic at most. A cheap collar of plaques would help, and serviceable but lower-class footwear; that's always a dead give-away. You'd have to have your clan-glyph on the cheap collar, of course, as trying to pass yourself off as a different clan has all sorts of serious consequences.

Oh, and go out through the back gate of the clanhouse. That way, you'll be able to mingle with the trades people and be less obvious. Stay at a good, but cheaper guesthouse; stay out of the Foreigners' Quarter and the really cheap places. Pass yourself off as a poorer member of your clan, and don't flash any cash. You'll probably be mistaken for a noble person 'out on the town' 'slumming it' for some fun; it does happen.

Yes, to both. The platforms by the larger towers are for larger parties of the poorer travelers; more high-status or wealthier ones can 'book' rooms in the large towers for the night. One usually sends a servant ahead to let the gurds know one will be arriving, so they can get you a clean room. These larger towers are usually spaced about a day's march apart; the smaller ones, which are really more guard posts then anything else, don't have the room for guests. (Think of the layout of Hadrian's wall, for an idea of how this works; you have the mile towers and the little forts, which are about the same as the road towers.)

I very rarely stayed in any of the big towers; we just didn't do a lot of traveling by the Sakbe roads. The one big trip I had, when I went from Maku to Fasiltum to take up my post as a Deputy Governor, I hired a party of bearers from one of the transport clans as well as a Chlen cart for all the baggage. We spent all our nights under canvas - which is what the cart was for - and my bearers considered themselves to be very high class to have been engaged by such a noble young lord and his wonderful wife.

The female bearers did consider it to be a great scandal that Her Ladyship, Si N'te, did not have any handmaidens to serve her on the trip - I heard about it from them forever - and so the cart-driver's girlfriend was appointed as Her Ladyship's Maid for the trip. The senior-most of the female bearers appointed herself as Her Ladyship's major-domo, and appropriated my biggest tent (my military headquarters tent, actually) as The Womens' Tent. I never saw the inside of it the whole trip, unless Her Ladyship Was Receiving. I had my own sleeping tent, and the bearers all had tents as well - we travelled very 'posh', if you will.

We mere menfolk did what we were told, made camp as directed, and ate what we were offered. It was a grand trip... :)

(And yes, the whole caravan is sitting on the shelves in the game room, complete with cooking pots and firepits. It all makes for a very cosy set up on the game table, ripe for adventures and excitement!)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 24, 2015, 03:35:22 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;857415
Oooo! Wonderful question!!!

If a high-status person was trying to get around on the quiet, the first thing would be to 'dress down', and wear clothes that were as lower a status as they could get away with, that didn't mark them as the lowest of the low. No flashy gems, nothing that savored of the rich; just a kilt and maybe a tunic at most. A cheap collar of plaques would help, and serviceable but lower-class footwear; that's always a dead give-away. You'd have to have your clan-glyph on the cheap collar, of course, as trying to pass yourself off as a different clan has all sorts of serious consequences.

Oh, and go out through the back gate of the clanhouse. That way, you'll be able to mingle with the trades people and be less obvious. Stay at a good, but cheaper guesthouse; stay out of the Foreigners' Quarter and the really cheap places. Pass yourself off as a poorer member of your clan, and don't flash any cash. You'll probably be mistaken for a noble person 'out on the town' 'slumming it' for some fun; it does happen.

Yes, to both. The platforms by the larger towers are for larger parties of the poorer travelers; more high-status or wealthier ones can 'book' rooms in the large towers for the night. One usually sends a servant ahead to let the gurds know one will be arriving, so they can get you a clean room. These larger towers are usually spaced about a day's march apart; the smaller ones, which are really more guard posts then anything else, don't have the room for guests. (Think of the layout of Hadrian's wall, for an idea of how this works; you have the mile towers and the little forts, which are about the same as the road towers.)

I very rarely stayed in any of the big towers; we just didn't do a lot of traveling by the Sakbe roads. The one big trip I had, when I went from Maku to Fasiltum to take up my post as a Deputy Governor, I hired a party of bearers from one of the transport clans as well as a Chlen cart for all the baggage. We spent all our nights under canvas - which is what the cart was for - and my bearers considered themselves to be very high class to have been engaged by such a noble young lord and his wonderful wife.

The female bearers did consider it to be a great scandal that Her Ladyship, Si N'te, did not have any handmaidens to serve her on the trip - I heard about it from them forever - and so the cart-driver's girlfriend was appointed as Her Ladyship's Maid for the trip. The senior-most of the female bearers appointed herself as Her Ladyship's major-domo, and appropriated my biggest tent (my military headquarters tent, actually) as The Womens' Tent. I never saw the inside of it the whole trip, unless Her Ladyship Was Receiving. I had my own sleeping tent, and the bearers all had tents as well - we travelled very 'posh', if you will.

We mere menfolk did what we were told, made camp as directed, and ate what we were offered. It was a grand trip... :)

(And yes, the whole caravan is sitting on the shelves in the game room, complete with cooking pots and firepits. It all makes for a very cosy set up on the game table, ripe for adventures and excitement!)


Great!!! Thank you.

Follow-up question, the guesthouses are part of ones own clanhouse? Yes, I think...? What if a particular area visited has no clanhouse? Also arrangements are made ahead of time? Payment is from clan accounts and/or cash?

Would it be a problem to just show up? Thank you in advance.

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 25, 2015, 02:07:52 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;857488
Great!!! Thank you.

Follow-up question, the guesthouses are part of ones own clanhouse? Yes, I think...? What if a particular area visited has no clanhouse? Also arrangements are made ahead of time? Payment is from clan accounts and/or cash?

Would it be a problem to just show up? Thank you in advance.

H :0)

The clans do have guest quarters as part of the clanhouse, and normally one would expect to stay there. (No reservations needed, but sending a servant ahead is a polite thing to do.) However, the 'guesthouses' as we played them (and Phil wrote about) are commercial establishments run by individuals or clans and serve anyone who shows up on the doorstep. They are considered to be 'neutral territory', as they serve all comers equally, and causing a ruckus will get one in a lot of very, very bad trouble. The ones in the Foreigners' Quarters vary from bad to decent, and the ones outside in urban area or along major travel routes range from decent to exquisite - the one in Usenanu is particularly good, and would rate as a five-star establishment.

If a particular location did not have one of your clanhouses, then you'd probably stay with your temple - basic 'transit quarters', but free. If not the temple, then maybe a legion depot that you had connections with. If you have the money and the connections, the guesthouses are always good if there's one in the area. Worst comes to worst, you can ask for hospitality at the village headman's house, and they'll try to set you up with something if you are polite and look like you won't cause trouble.

'Reservations' can always be made, and this is considered polite to do. Payments can be done either by writ on your clan's account or by cash.

Yes, one can just show up on the doorstep, and one will be made welcome.

May I suggest a book for you?

 "Japanese Inn", by Oliver Statler
http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Japanese_Inn (http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Japanese_Inn)

I have a much-treasured copy of this wonderful book; it's full of 'flavor' and history, and you can get a nice idea of what running an establishment like this was like. Phil had Mughal guesthouses in mind, and I'll try to find you some references on those.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 25, 2015, 08:17:13 PM
Have you played any of the internet identifiable  adventures?

If so, how much did you follow them as written?

Any that you know of that are good examples of how you create an adventure?
(Say for a convention or something.)
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 26, 2015, 02:29:02 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;857686
Have you played any of the internet identifiable  adventures?

If so, how much did you follow them as written?

Any that you know of that are good examples of how you create an adventure?
(Say for a convention or something.)
=


I'm sorry, but I don't know what those are. To the best of my recollection, I have never played any. That answer kind of takes care of your second and third questions, and I'm sorry that I don't have any good answers for you on that basis.

If I may, could I rephrase your third question into "How do you create an adventure?" Would that be all right? :)

So, based on that...

Let me use the March 2015 Gary Con game as an example. I wanted to have what is often called in the miniatures biz a 'signature' game, which is a game where the players get to experience something really neat that is a good example of whatever genre is being presented. In this case, I wanted to have a game that was as much like gaming with Phil as possible, and would provide an interesting time for players. I have very fond - and terrifying! - memories of running through the Jakalla Underworld, back in the day, so I pulled my copy off the shelf and looked through the notes that Phil had made. These are full of plot hooks and adventure scenarios that can be used, and I used on of these - a prisoner that had to be rescued.

The adventure then pretty much created itself; the prisoner's friends hire/borrow a team of experienced adventurers, and send them in as a Tsolyani version of the SWAT team to rescue their friend. After that, the thing pretty much ran itself - ask Gronan how it went, as I dragooned him into playing as the team's local guide. (It was priceless, when he looked at his PC envelope - "YOU BASTARD!" was his response.) I also provided two long-time Tekumel players and friends as players and Designated Experts, and they answered a lot of the questions that I would normally expect to field.

I also provided 18 male and 6 female semi-pre-rolled characters, each with artwork to show how they looked, a quick note on who they were, and their stats in EPT. The players chose their own skills and spells, with took about 15 minutes - I provided a half-dozen copies of EPT from my archives for them to use. (Each player also got a miniature figure, too, as a little gift from me for playing.)

It was, as I have mentioned, an awesome game.

As for other adventures, may I suggest a copy of Phil's "Deeds of the Ever-Glorious"? His histories of the various Tsolyani legions are chock-full of adventures just waiting to be played - I've used many of them, in my time, and they never seem to fail to delight, amaze, and mystify the players. Phil left us lots and lots of wonderful ideas, and they are well worth looking into for adventures.

You can also look at my little blog, and look for the posts on how I create my 'Braunstein' games. Same thing; I get ideas from all over. I once ran the movie "Casablanca" as a an adventure, and it took my players literally weeks to figure out what was happening. Even with my humming the songs, and doing lines like "Molkar hi Strasser has been shot! Arrest the usual suspects!"

And ask Gronan, too; He's been on the receiving end of my games for years. I genuinely don't have a good idea about where I come up with  this stuff. All my games seem pretty straightforward to start with, but I always manage to put a few 'little wrinkles' into them for the players... :)

Does any of this help? Ask more questions, too, as I seem to work better that way... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 26, 2015, 09:13:36 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;857717
I'm sorry, but I don't know what those are. To the best of my recollection, I have never played any. That answer kind of takes care of your second and third questions, and I'm sorry that I don't have any good answers for you on that basis.

If I may, could I rephrase your third question into "How do you create an adventure?" Would that be all right? :)

So, based on that...

Let me use the March 2015 Gary Con game as an example. I wanted to have what is often called in the miniatures biz a 'signature' game, which is a game where the players get to experience something really neat that is a good example of whatever genre is being presented. In this case, I wanted to have a game that was as much like gaming with Phil as possible, and would provide an interesting time for players. I have very fond - and terrifying! - memories of running through the Jakalla Underworld, back in the day, so I pulled my copy off the shelf and looked through the notes that Phil had made. These are full of plot hooks and adventure scenarios that can be used, and I used on of these - a prisoner that had to be rescued.


... and that sort of thing is just not available to us "common folk" ...

So, use the unobtainable to refresh the memories that you don't have ...
:p

Seriously, I hope that the retelling of your adventures in your book will fill in some of the blanks and give inspiration for future adventures of others.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;857717

Does any of this help? Ask more questions, too, as I seem to work better that way... :)

I feel bad if I'm the only one asking questions so I try to give others an opening.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 26, 2015, 10:33:39 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;857737
... and that sort of thing is just not available to us "common folk" ...

So, use the unobtainable to refresh the memories that you don't have ...
:p

Seriously, I hope that the retelling of your adventures in your book will fill in some of the blanks and give inspiration for future adventures of others.


I feel bad if I'm the only one asking questions so I try to give others an opening.
=

 
Greentongue don't feel bad, ask away!!! I'm enjoying it. My problem is that I'm trying to ask questions that, I would not be able to find myself. So I ask, when something worthy comes to mind...

Take care,
H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 26, 2015, 12:35:39 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;857737
... and that sort of thing is just not available to us "common folk" ...

So, use the unobtainable to refresh the memories that you don't have ...
:p

Seriously, I hope that the retelling of your adventures in your book will fill in some of the blanks and give inspiration for future adventures of others.


I feel bad if I'm the only one asking questions so I try to give others an opening.
=


Oh, I know; I hear you. Back when Dave Arneson hired me to be the 'Vice-President for Tekumel Affairs', my goal / brief / mandate was to simply get as much of Phil's work out into print as was possible, given our budget. "Deeds" was, I think, my favorite work - it's got so much of Phil's 'flavor' in it.

I was asked, point-blank, by the Board of Directors of the Tekumel Foundation during their June 2012 strategic planning session how long it would take me to get Phil's work and notes up onto the Internet and available via a site like DriveThruRPG. I thought about it for a few minutes, took mental inventory of what we had in the archives and in digital format, and broke my answer down into three 'phases':

A lot of the really useful material, like the Sourcebook, could be up in about a month. This kind of thing - Phil's published novels, the Sourcebook, the Adventure Games publications that I did - already existed in digital form, so all that would be needed was to get them into the right format for publication.

The rest of Phil's textual materials could be up by about the sixth month after being given the 'start' command. This would have involved digitizing all of the remaining materials, mostly via scanning. My missus had bought two new high-speed scanners for doing this, and I am very pleased to say that she finished the job by the time I had my brain bleed that September.

All remaining Tekumel materials could be up by a year after the 'go' command. This material would have been 'raw' materials, like maps and Phil's two unpublished and incomplete novels, but my feeling is that most gamers are pretty smart folks and could work with what they saw. The Jakalla Underworld would have been in this category, as the sheer size of the main level's map would have been a formatting issue.

I should note that this assumed that all of the Tekumel materials in my own collection would have been included in this, being added to the publications list as appropriate. I have an immense archive of materials that I've been accumulating since 1976, and I would have included all of the various 'zines and publications that I had done and collected, and also the photo archives we've built up over the years.

Now, I freely admit that this would all have been a lot of work, and a lot of accounting and record-keeping. (That's what computers are for.) But, it would have gotten all of Phil's works out into the gaming world again, and would have brought the Foundation some much-needed revenue. As an example of how this could work, my wife  was the one who did the 'side-by-side' version of EPT that the Foundation is selling. She scanned in one of the 'mimeo' playtest editions, did the OCR work to fix the typos, and then did the same for the 'plain text' version that was next to the 'mimeo' version. It sold very, very well, the Foundation told me, and they were very pleased.

We never got the 'go' order. I've put everything into the deep-freeze, to preserve the archives.

The whole idea behind my book was exactly as you said, and why I wanted to simply put it up on the web as a free download. My goal is to tell you about Phil and his creation; that's it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 26, 2015, 12:36:32 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;857743
Greentongue don't feel bad, ask away!!! I'm enjoying it. My problem is that I'm trying to ask questions that, I would not be able to find myself. So I ask, when something worthy comes to mind...

Take care,
H:0)


And there you go. Ask away, anyone! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Luca on September 26, 2015, 01:48:51 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;857757

We never got the 'go' order. I've put everything into the deep-freeze, to preserve the archives.


This is hearthbreaking, and I've never even played Tekumel.

I really hope that material can be someday, somehow put out in the open.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 26, 2015, 01:53:10 PM
I think one of the biggest problems with playing is to get the players engaged.

Like with "Pulp" as it is described now, the majority of the potential audience doesn't relate to the source material.
Many basic assumptions have changed over time.
For example, rocketships, what shape are they?
Who even uses "Rocketships" any more??

I think if it was repackaged as an anime it would be far more successful at generating interest.

This is why "how it was done back then" is so interesting to me.

I can create my own D&D clone game with a non-elf setting but there are few with the particular mix that EPT has.
When deriving from the original, it helps to know what the original actually was.

Games with only human opponents bump up hard against the "Politically Correct" barrier.

How much was your opponents being human critical to game play?
From many of your descriptions, talking your way out of things was common.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 27, 2015, 03:50:19 PM
Quote from: Luca;857766
This is hearthbreaking, and I've never even played Tekumel.

I really hope that material can be someday, somehow put out in the open.


It was, it is, and one can only hope.

In the meantime, all the data is safe; I have multiple backups in multiple locations.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 27, 2015, 04:19:28 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;857767
I think one of the biggest problems with playing is to get the players engaged.

Like with "Pulp" as it is described now, the majority of the potential audience doesn't relate to the source material.
Many basic assumptions have changed over time.
For example, rocketships, what shape are they?
Who even uses "Rocketships" any more??

I think if it was repackaged as an anime it would be far more successful at generating interest.

This is why "how it was done back then" is so interesting to me.

I can create my own D&D clone game with a non-elf setting but there are few with the particular mix that EPT has.
When deriving from the original, it helps to know what the original actually was.

Games with only human opponents bump up hard against the "Politically Correct" barrier.

How much was your opponents being human critical to game play?
From many of your descriptions, talking your way out of things was common.
=


Oh, yes; I agree with that. 'Pulp' is now a largely forgotten genre, except for the game publications by various companies - and I've noticed that they tend to supply sample adventures for players, as the original material is so difficult to find.

Your point about 'rocketships' is entirely correct; I've had to explain to people what these are, and in some cases what 'rockets' are. They are an obsolete form of technology, these days, and thus 'outside the envelope' of what people know.

I hate to ask this, but what's the 'politically incorrect barrier'? I mean, I see things like the "Are Orcs Racist?" thread go by, but I don't have any real grasp on what the issues are. Which probably makes me sexist, racist, culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, ageist, lookist, ableist, sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist, phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other type of bias as yet unnamed. It's like the current fashion for LGBT inclusion in games; back in the day, we didn't care much about it or worried about who was and wasn't LGBT; we just got on with the game, and tried to stay alive. These days, I feel like I have to ask new players for their Official LGBT Certification papers in  order to be able to let them play...

Anyway...

Whether or not our opponents were human or not never did seem to make much difference in our game play; either they were out to kill us, or we'd be able to negotiate something with them. Human or non-human, we'd work kind of hard at not getting into fights with them; melees very quickly got deadly, especially against heavy-duty beings like the Shen or Ahoggya, and as a matter of simple survival we'd try to find a way not to have to start slaughtering people. We spoke a lot of languages, and we could usually find a common tongue to communicate with people we ran into.

"Oh, too bad, your PC is dead, roll up another one" was not the way we played; we thought that our 'win' was from keeping our PCs alive, and moving them along their career paths. Tekumel is a very deadly place, especially if you go off the beaten path, and simple survival was a very big deal. In the Underworlds, combat was pretty common, as most of what we faced was not sapient and not open to discussion; same in the 'wilderness' areas. If we faced a sentient life-form, of whatever variety, we'd try to talk them out of killing us, and we usually managed to work out a pretty reasonable deal with them. We didn't kill them, they didn't kill us, and everybody walked away from the situation alive. That may sound kinda dull, but it did very - very, very! - often lead to much more exciting adventures, where the people (again, of all species) would suggest that we might want to have a look at something that had been giving them trouble, and maybe deal with the problem for them. (For a suitable reward, of course.)

Getting into combat was not a common thing with us, and when it was it was A Very Big Deal. It should be kept in mind that we'd played these same PCs for years, and we felt we had a vested interest in keeping them alive. When we did go into combat, we did so very hard, very fast, and very, very much out to win. We pulled no punches whatsoever, and even in the early days of the campaign we got a well-deserved reputation for being ruthless killers if we were provoked. This, in turn, led us into yet more interesting adventures, as having a squad of ruthless killers who were quick, fast, and clever was considered to be A Very Good Thing to have around by a great many people who could make it worth our while to put ourselves into danger on their behalf.

I killed a lot of people, of all kinds, over the years. I also worked with and for a lot more people, again of all kinds, as well. On the whole, the latter out-numbered the former, and everybody walked away with something nice.

Does any of this help, at all? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 27, 2015, 05:21:43 PM
Hello,

If you would could you talk a bit about Lord Fu Shi'i? Where on Tekumel he comes from? Who he really serves and to what ends(if any)? I'm curious about what his side of Tekumel is like. Does he play a bigger role in the Professor's meta game?

Also what were the Professor's plans for the future of Tekumel? Did he have his whole meta game planned, or was it developing as you went along? Did the Professor reveal the secrets of Tekumel to you guys in the end? Is it something you can talk about? Would it disrupt the fabric of time causing the destruction of Tekumel's pocket universe...? Maybe I don't really want to know...but thanks.

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 27, 2015, 07:47:19 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;857913
I hate to ask this, but what's the 'politically incorrect barrier'? I mean, I see things like the "Are Orcs Racist?" thread go by, ...


Yes. Some people seem to be unable to take things In Game Context and get Personal.
The setting has many things that can be used to raise a fuss if that is your intent.
Doing so seems to make some think they are "A Better Person".

Quote from: chirine ba kal;857913

Does any of this help, at all? :)


Experience points are the biggest issue. Which basically requires "Killing Things and Taking Their Stuff" as written in the EPT rules.
From your descriptions that wasn't the case so, to emulate your play, some conversion has the be calculated.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 27, 2015, 09:16:50 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;857916
Hello,

If you would could you talk a bit about Lord Fu Shi'i? Where on Tekumel he comes from? Who he really serves and to what ends(if any)? I'm curious about what his side of Tekumel is like. Does he play a bigger role in the Professor's meta game?

Also what were the Professor's plans for the future of Tekumel? Did he have his whole meta game planned, or was it developing as you went along? Did the Professor reveal the secrets of Tekumel to you guys in the end? Is it something you can talk about? Would it disrupt the fabric of time causing the destruction of Tekumel's pocket universe...? Maybe I don't really want to know...but thanks.

H :0)


Well, let's see; we never got a whole lot of information on him, especially after he turned a nosy player-character (Eyloa) into a talking fish. What we do know:

He usually appears as a human. He's extremely powerful; we always assumed that he was at the level of the Undying Wizards, and really tried to stay away from him. At one point, somebody noticed that his eyes do glint red, which usually was the sign of a Mihalli shapeshifter. He's an ally of Baron Ald, but does have his own agenda and masters. We originally thought that he might be from the human empire ('the brown and purple empire, from their theme colors) on the opposite side of the planet from us, but then we got more information about the Hokun and the general feeling was that he was working for them. (There's not much information on the other portions of Tekumel, either; Phil always smiled and 'suggested' that we explore them to find out...) When we found out that it was the Hokun who had originally paid the Lords of Humanspace to terraform Tekumel for them, we got really uninterested in asking them or him a lot of pointed questions...

As for his role in the meta-game, we never found out. Phil played those cards very, very close to his chest. (Including doing index cards in Urdu.)

As for Phil's future plans, he left nothing behind in his files. (I looked. Oh, did I look.) His main focus / plot line / story when we played with him was the Mirusiya / Elara romance ( which he worked on from 1948 to 2004 or so); He sort of got a new plot line started in the unpublished novel, but it wasn't all that well developed.

The meta-game was never 'planned'; it grew very organically, and Phil pretty much pushed the 'start' button and let the thing run; his focus was on his novels, and the meta-game provided a lot of the background details for them, just as our adventures did. It developed quite a bit over time, starting with his 'Risk'-like game in the 1950s and then miniatures and then RPGs.

No, Phil did not reveal a lot of any Big Secrets; he preferred that there always would be mysteries for people to explore. He certainly did drop a lot of hints along the way, which was part of the fun of playing and working with him, but he always played things very close and didn't give up any secrets unless it was important. He was asked about this very thing over and over, both by us and at conventions; he'd always just smile, and politely suggest that you needed to go off on an adventure to try and find out - and drop him a line to let him know what you found, if you got back...

I certainly can talk about this forever, which would probably bore you to tears; let me say that one of the really wonderful things about gaming with Phil was having a front-row seat for the creative process as he developed and refined what he wanted to do. It was like out time with Gordy Dickson; we had a front row seat for the Dorsai, too...

Can you be more specific? Which particular mystery do you have in mind?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 27, 2015, 09:23:59 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;857936
Yes. Some people seem to be unable to take things In Game Context and get Personal.
The setting has many things that can be used to raise a fuss if that is your intent.
Doing so seems to make some think they are "A Better Person".



Experience points are the biggest issue. Which basically requires "Killing Things and Taking Their Stuff" as written in the EPT rules.
From your descriptions that wasn't the case so, to emulate your play, some conversion has the be calculated.
=


Understood. "NAKED! THEY'RE NAKED!"; "OMG! LESBIANS!"; etc. I used to have to deal with this a lot at conventions; Tekumel used to be considered the 'naughty' world-setting...

Ah! Gotcha! Yeah, the XP thing is something that Phil pretty much ignored after about the first two or three years of play. We'd just do the mission, survive, and get rewarded with ranks and position - which would also bring in the cash, with which we'd buy / learn new spells and skills. Phil would just do it off the top of his head, but I agree - coming up with a way to simulate this in a modern game is going to take some thought.

We'd usually hire a tutor or somebody, and then take a six-month 'vacation' in the game to pick up something new. Once we'd gotten that, it was back to the adventures...

The first time one of my players asked me if he could 'level up' I had no idea what he was talking about... :)

I tend to do the number-crunching in my head, and then tell the player what they have to work with. It keeps the game going, and seems to work out pretty well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on September 27, 2015, 09:28:26 PM
Actually, now that it comes to it, why hasn't Tekumal been done with Runequest?  RQ has a very explicit cash and time to training system.  It's more focussed on an anthropological view of fantasy,  builds new magic systems to fit settings, And it's an incredibly stable and functional system.  I'm not even a BRP fan and it seems like a perfect fit to me.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: TheShadow on September 27, 2015, 09:43:29 PM
Quote from: Luca;857766

I really hope that material can be someday, somehow put out in the open.


Seconded...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 27, 2015, 10:12:47 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;857951
Actually, now that it comes to it, why hasn't Tekumal been done with Runequest?  RQ has a very explicit cash and time to training system.  It's more focussed on an anthropological view of fantasy,  builds new magic systems to fit settings, And it's an incredibly stable and functional system.  I'm not even a BRP fan and it seems like a perfect fit to me.

It has been done. By Sandy Petersen (http://tekumel.com/downloads/RQtekumel.pdf). System seemed to work just fine when my PC got his eye plucked out. "Working fine" being a relative assessment determined from a certain point of view.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 27, 2015, 11:43:05 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;857951
Actually, now that it comes to it, why hasn't Tekumal been done with Runequest?  RQ has a very explicit cash and time to training system.  It's more focussed on an anthropological view of fantasy,  builds new magic systems to fit settings, And it's an incredibly stable and functional system.  I'm not even a BRP fan and it seems like a perfect fit to me.

Beats me. From what I've seen, Gloriantha fans tend to stay in their patch, and Tekumel fans tend to stay in theirs.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 27, 2015, 11:44:30 PM
Quote from: The_Shadow;857952
Seconded...


Agreed!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 27, 2015, 11:45:51 PM
Quote from: Bren;857958
It has been done. By Sandy Petersen (http://tekumel.com/downloads/RQtekumel.pdf). System seemed to work just fine when my PC got his eye plucked out. "Working fine" being a relative assessment determined from a certain point of view.


Which is very cool! I wonder why this never seemed to get any attention from people?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 28, 2015, 12:57:06 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;857972
Which is very cool! I wonder why this never seemed to get any attention from people?
Maybe because it is free? Maybe because it wasn't part of a Tekumel in-group? Maybe because it was one bit in the 1990s Runequest Revival? Maybe because RQ3 fell by the wayside?

Sandy ran it at a Runequest Con back in the 1990s. Runequest Con 2, I think.  I had fun...up until the eye thing.

And if you don't want a level-based game style, it would seem a decent fit and simpler from a rules standpoint than Swords & Glory.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 28, 2015, 06:01:17 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;857948
Well, let's see; we never got a whole lot of information on him, especially after he turned a nosy player-character (Eyloa) into a talking fish. What we do know:

He usually appears as a human. He's extremely powerful; we always assumed that he was at the level of the Undying Wizards, and really tried to stay away from him. At one point, somebody noticed that his eyes do glint red, which usually was the sign of a Mihalli shapeshifter. He's an ally of Baron Ald, but does have his own agenda and masters. We originally thought that he might be from the human empire ('the brown and purple empire, from their theme colors) on the opposite side of the planet from us, but then we got more information about the Hokun and the general feeling was that he was working for them. (There's not much information on the other portions of Tekumel, either; Phil always smiled and 'suggested' that we explore them to find out...) When we found out that it was the Hokun who had originally paid the Lords of Humanspace to terraform Tekumel for them, we got really uninterested in asking them or him a lot of pointed questions...

As for his role in the meta-game, we never found out. Phil played those cards very, very close to his chest. (Including doing index cards in Urdu.)

As for Phil's future plans, he left nothing behind in his files. (I looked. Oh, did I look.) His main focus / plot line / story when we played with him was the Mirusiya / Elara romance ( which he worked on from 1948 to 2004 or so); He sort of got a new plot line started in the unpublished novel, but it wasn't all that well developed.

The meta-game was never 'planned'; it grew very organically, and Phil pretty much pushed the 'start' button and let the thing run; his focus was on his novels, and the meta-game provided a lot of the background details for them, just as our adventures did. It developed quite a bit over time, starting with his 'Risk'-like game in the 1950s and then miniatures and then RPGs.

No, Phil did not reveal a lot of any Big Secrets; he preferred that there always would be mysteries for people to explore. He certainly did drop a lot of hints along the way, which was part of the fun of playing and working with him, but he always played things very close and didn't give up any secrets unless it was important. He was asked about this very thing over and over, both by us and at conventions; he'd always just smile, and politely suggest that you needed to go off on an adventure to try and find out - and drop him a line to let him know what you found, if you got back...

I certainly can talk about this forever, which would probably bore you to tears; let me say that one of the really wonderful things about gaming with Phil was having a front-row seat for the creative process as he developed and refined what he wanted to do. It was like out time with Gordy Dickson; we had a front row seat for the Dorsai, too...

Can you be more specific? Which particular mystery do you have in mind?


Thank you. Nothing specific. I have notes that I made from different sources. No need to repeat things already out there. Thanks. When I think of something else, I will pester you...

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 28, 2015, 08:11:01 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;857951
Actually, now that it comes to it, why hasn't Tekumal been done with Runequest?


I think that from the descriptions Chirine ba Kal is giving, Savage Worlds would be a good fit.
I actually fooled around with doing so. (http://home.earthlink.net/~djackson24/Delbert6a.htm)
Needed a bit more experience in both.

Quote from: Hrugga;858006
No need to repeat things already out there.


Sometimes it is helpful to have everything in one place.
I'm collecting all the "answers" in a document just in case this thread vanishes some day.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 28, 2015, 08:58:24 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;858018
I think that from the descriptions Chirine ba Kal is giving, Savage Worlds would be a good fit.
I actually fooled around with doing so. (http://home.earthlink.net/~djackson24/Delbert6a.htm)
Needed a bit more experience in both.



Sometimes it is helpful to have everything in one place.
I'm collecting all the "answers" in a document just in case this thread vanishes some day.
=

 
That's good. I have my own notes as well that I have been collecting over the last couple of years...

I just don't want to ask Chirine questions out of laziness. Questions that I could find the answers to on my own using the source material available. Even though he would definitely answer them being the gentleman he is. I hope I have been succeeding on that front.

That being said I have been enjoying all the questions and goings on in this thread.

Take care,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 28, 2015, 12:05:35 PM
Quote from: Bren;857987
Maybe because it is free? Maybe because it wasn't part of a Tekumel in-group? Maybe because it was one bit in the 1990s Runequest Revival? Maybe because RQ3 fell by the wayside?

Sandy ran it at a Runequest Con back in the 1990s. Runequest Con 2, I think.  I had fun...up until the eye thing.

And if you don't want a level-based game style, it would seem a decent fit and simpler from a rules standpoint than Swords & Glory.


All of the above, I think. The 1990s were when the 'Official', 'Authorized', 'Approved' viewpoint was just starting to take hold, and a lot of stuff like this was happening in the 'outside' world - and being resolutely ignored in the 'inner circle'. I remember the RG Cons; something similar was tried for Tekumel, at the time, but got a lot of very negative push-back from the 'inner circle' so it never happened. Pity, really.

I'd strongly agree with you about S&G. 935 pages of rules for everything, and pretty much unplayable. Phil used the character generation and the spell lists in his games, and that was about it. I don't think we ever played S&G 'all up'.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 28, 2015, 12:07:48 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;858006
Thank you. Nothing specific. I have notes that I made from different sources. No need to repeat things already out there. Thanks. When I think of something else, I will pester you...

H :0)


Understood - you probably have about as much information on this as we did! I can speak to specifics, of course, and maybe fill in some of the details, but Phil really liked to wait until we'd read the latest of his novels to give us the backstory stuff...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 28, 2015, 12:12:53 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;858018
I think that from the descriptions Chirine ba Kal is giving, Savage Worlds would be a good fit.
I actually fooled around with doing so. (http://home.earthlink.net/~djackson24/Delbert6a.htm)
Needed a bit more experience in both.

Sometimes it is helpful to have everything in one place.
I'm collecting all the "answers" in a document just in case this thread vanishes some day.
=


This! It's always been my opinion that one can use other sets of rules for the world-setting; Phil himself said the same thing.

I'm doing the same; I do agree about having the information in one easy to access location. Having such diffuse sources has been a huge disadvantage for Tekumel, over the years.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 28, 2015, 12:15:34 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;858022
That's good. I have my own notes as well that I have been collecting over the last couple of years...

I just don't want to ask Chirine questions out of laziness. Questions that I could find the answers to on my own using the source material available. Even though he would definitely answer them being the gentleman he is. I hope I have been succeeding on that front.

That being said I have been enjoying all the questions and goings on in this thread.

Take care,

H :0)


Understood, and I'm happy to be able to fill in what details I can. Please do feel free to ask, as that's something I really enjoy! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 28, 2015, 12:22:16 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;858022
That's good. I have my own notes as well that I have been collecting over the last couple of years...

I just don't want to ask Chirine questions out of laziness. Questions that I could find the answers to on my own using the source material available. Even though he would definitely answer them being the gentleman he is. I hope I have been succeeding on that front.

That being said I have been enjoying all the questions and goings on in this thread.

Take care,

H :0)


Understood, and I'm happy to be able to fill in what details I can. Please do feel free to ask, as that's something I really enjoy! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 28, 2015, 02:01:43 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;858054
All of the above, I think. The 1990s were when the 'Official', 'Authorized', 'Approved' viewpoint was just starting to take hold, and a lot of stuff like this was happening in the 'outside' world - and being resolutely ignored in the 'inner circle'. I remember the RG Cons; something similar was tried for Tekumel, at the time, but got a lot of very negative push-back from the 'inner circle' so it never happened. Pity, really.

I'd strongly agree with you about S&G. 935 pages of rules for everything, and pretty much unplayable. Phil used the character generation and the spell lists in his games, and that was about it. I don't think we ever played S&G 'all up'.
I own the original books 1 & 2 and its nothing I'd ever play. I'd either go with a version of the original EPT if I wanted to deal with levels or I'd go with something based on a system I'm already familiar with, which would likely be Sandy's rules, since I am lazy about writing entirely new rule sets when I can use something someone else already wrote up.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 28, 2015, 02:42:56 PM
Quote from: Bren;858068
I own the original books 1 & 2 and its nothing I'd ever play. I'd either go with a version of the original EPT if I wanted to deal with levels or I'd go with something based on a system I'm already familiar with, which would likely be Sandy's rules, since I am lazy about writing entirely new rule sets when I can use something someone else already wrote up.


Chirine,

S&G...Since we are on the subject, what can you tell me about this...[ATTACH]1106[/ATTACH]

As far as content goes(GM info)? It is from the Dave Sutherland collection that was auctioned some time back. Is this the elusive third book that was lost to mankind? I think it was DS's personal proof copy...Thanks. Hope to hear from you soon.

H :0)

PS I'm most interested on the image on the cover. Thanks
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 28, 2015, 08:11:02 PM
Well, the manuscript on the cover is Baron Ald's declaration of war on Tsolyanu, but as for the book, I don't know.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 28, 2015, 08:44:36 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;858103
Well, the manuscript on the cover is Baron Ald's declaration of war on Tsolyanu, but as for the book, I don't know.


Ahh!!! Thank you GloriousG.

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 29, 2015, 01:51:22 AM
Quote from: Bren;858068
I own the original books 1 & 2 and its nothing I'd ever play. I'd either go with a version of the original EPT if I wanted to deal with levels or I'd go with something based on a system I'm already familiar with, which would likely be Sandy's rules, since I am lazy about writing entirely new rule sets when I can use something someone else already wrote up.


Agreed. We sent S&G II and what we had for III out for 'blind test', and it didn't fly. If you just used the combat summary (16 pages, I think) and the sorcery summary (18 pages, I think; I'd have to check my copies) with the PC sheet, you can have a fun game. I loved the first volume, The Sourcebook, as it had all sorts of lovely stuff about the world, but about the only good thing with the rules was the spell lists - which are descended from "War of Wizards". The GM book, vol. III, was never completed; about the closest you'll get is using a copy of "Gardasiyal" to fill in the missing parts.

On the other had, Jeff Dee's "Bethorm" is about as close as you'll get to what Phil probably intended with S&G. I played in a game of it with him, and I though that it was a very good analog to what Phil was doing in his games - when he bothered with rules at all, which was always happening with him...

Personally, I'll always prefer EPT, with S&G's spells; again, this is what "bethorm" does a good job with.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 29, 2015, 02:00:35 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;858076
Chirine,

S&G...Since we are on the subject, what can you tell me about this...[ATTACH]1106[/ATTACH]

As far as content goes(GM info)? It is from the Dave Sutherland collection that was auctioned some time back. Is this the elusive third book that was lost to mankind? I think it was DS's personal proof copy...Thanks. Hope to hear from you soon.

H :0)

PS I'm most interested on the image on the cover. Thanks


What you have is the Tita's House of Games publication of the third part of S&G I, The Sourcebook. Different Worlds published the first two-thirds of the book after they got the license, but ran out of money and never published the remaining third of the book. It is not the S&G III 'GM Guide". That was never finished; my copy of the manuscript runs to about 345 pages.

It has most of Dave Sutherland's artwork from "The Dragon" and "Legions of the Petal Throne" as interior artwork. Which is where the Sutherland connection probably comes in; I got a digital copy of all the artwork in Dave's collection form the person who bought it in the auction, which was kind of them.

The cover is Phil's old EPT poster, the declaration of war by Yan Kor on Tsolyanu, after Dave Houtla (Qutmu, later impaled for using undead in open warfare) started the war. TSR issued this in two versions, one a very nice one with metallic inks (about 250 printed) that didn't stand up to handling, and a less-expensive version that had about 1500 printed. (I also have a digital version of the original, too.) It's about 17" by 24", and looks pretty cool.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 29, 2015, 02:01:37 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;858103
Well, the manuscript on the cover is Baron Ald's declaration of war on Tsolyanu, but as for the book, I don't know.


What you said. See my reply to the gent... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 29, 2015, 02:04:00 AM
I don;t know if there's any interest, or even if this is the right place to mention it, but I'll be running a 'micro-Braunstein' for the game group on October 10th. It's our usual game day, and I was asked to run a little something special for the Usual Suspects... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 29, 2015, 08:00:14 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;858151
I don;t know if there's any interest, or even if this is the right place to mention it, but I'll be running a 'micro-Braunstein' for the game group on October 10th. It's our usual game day, and I was asked to run a little something special for the Usual Suspects... :)


Will you be posting a video of it?
I bet the videos would be even more popular if a version that was edited to just include the action was available.

While I may find the banter interesting, not everyone does.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 29, 2015, 02:38:00 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;858168
Will you be posting a video of it?
I bet the videos would be even more popular if a version that was edited to just include the action was available.

While I may find the banter interesting, not everyone does.
=


Probably not. I'm expecting a lot of first-time players, and I doubt they'd like to be up on the web first time out. I can ask, though. I'll post a report, like I did in my series of blog posts on how I run my Braunsteins.

If somebody wants to do the editing work to remove the banter, more power to them. (I've been doing video production since 1988, and I find doing post-production to be both tedious and boring.) If there's somebody who wants to do it, then they should feel free to do so.

The idea behind my videos is to show folks what it is that I do in the basement; a window into the past, if you will, as what you see is what we did back in Ye Olden Dayes. For us, the banter was a big part of our gaming style; we did this in our miniatures games and in our RPGs - for us, it was all about the social interaction of having fun with friends. I post the raw feeds, so people can pick and choose what they want from the data. If there's anything that they can use, more power to them.

If people want short and to the point 'how to' videos, I'd be delighted to help them produce the things. I'm looking at doing one of my own for my new edition of my rules; one of my proof-readers noted that I need to write the rules in such a way as to teach them to people, because I can't be there to teach the game them myself. I thought that that was a really good point, and I thought about it and then suggested that each copy of the rules include a DVD with a video of me running a game so that people can see how the thing works. (We're set up to make that kind of thing; I have the gear to do a really good four-camera shoot.) The Internet would also allow me to post the video on-line, as well; one could download the PDF and the video...

So, I guess the bottom line is we'll have to see what the players want to do, and go from there. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 29, 2015, 02:50:43 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;858148
Personally, I'll always prefer EPT, with S&G's spells; again, this is what "bethorm" does a good job with.
That's good to know. Thanks for the mini review. :)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;858151
I don;t know if there's any interest, or even if this is the right place to mention it, but I'll be running a 'micro-Braunstein' for the game group on October 10th. It's our usual game day, and I was asked to run a little something special for the Usual Suspects... :)
Sounds interesting, though maybe a bit long for a weekend drive for me. ;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 29, 2015, 09:11:16 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;858208
If people want short and to the point 'how to' videos, I'd be delighted to help them produce the things. I'm looking at doing one of my own for my new edition of my rules; one of my proof-readers noted that I need to write the rules in such a way as to teach them to people, because I can't be there to teach the game them myself.


There is a video on game rules for just about every board game out there these days. I think it may be helping to bring back board gaming.

Like the old saw about getting a job ...

How do you get someone to explain the rules, if no one has played before.

It would be great to have "How to" videos related to Tekumel.
Things like ...
How to talk your way past the guards of an opposing faith.
How to talk the local magistrate into approving construction of a new shrine.
How to talk a high noble into sponsoring you in the arena.
...

This assumes that they were not done by the "Tekumel Elite".
In which case it is probably better they don't exist.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 29, 2015, 10:13:58 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;858151
I don;t know if there's any interest, or even if this is the right place to mention it, but I'll be running a 'micro-Braunstein' for the game group on October 10th. It's our usual game day, and I was asked to run a little something special for the Usual Suspects... :)


Shucks...too bad I live so far away!!! Sounds cool. Maybe one day I can make it up north!!! Have fun.

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 30, 2015, 01:45:35 AM
Quote from: Bren;858209
That's good to know. Thanks for the mini review. :)

Sounds interesting, though maybe a bit long for a weekend drive for me. ;)


Happy to help!

And, yes, you'd have a bit of a drive... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 30, 2015, 02:04:14 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;858261
There is a video on game rules for just about every board game out there these days. I think it may be helping to bring back board gaming.

Like the old saw about getting a job ...

How do you get someone to explain the rules, if no one has played before.

It would be great to have "How to" videos related to Tekumel.
Things like ...
How to talk your way past the guards of an opposing faith.
How to talk the local magistrate into approving construction of a new shrine.
How to talk a high noble into sponsoring you in the arena.
...

This assumes that they were not done by the "Tekumel Elite".
In which case it is probably better they don't exist.
=


I'd agree with that; easy video and YouTube have really changed the way information flows.

I like your "How To" suggestions! I wonder if my going back to my short (no more then 30 minute, due to the size of the Sony Bloggie's memory) video 'blog' might work for this? These are all subjects that I could talk about pretty easily, and the game room is already set up for this kind of production work. Sure, it'd be single-camera / fixed position, but the kind of thing you have suggested is more of the 'talking head' kind of thing anyway.

I really enjoyed my little series of 'tableside chats' that I did that are up on YouTube; I think I could do them again, if you thought that it would be useful.

Thoughts? Comments?

And I agree about the viewpoint, too. I am a 'populist', not an 'elitist', and I have no commercial interests to have to support; my goal has been to simply tell people what Phil's Tekumel was like when we played in it with him. I've never been able to get my head around the 'Official", 'Authorized', 'Approved for use with' approach to gaming, which may be why I never got interested in GW's various game products. (I do have some of their miniatures, but only because they make good Tekumel figures.) Their way of doing things might really help their bottom line, but it does nothing for me as a game player or runner. And it was also one of the things that moved the RPG hobby away from the DIY roots of the thing back in the 1970s - head count that needed to be paid drove a lot of financial decisions, and those in turn drove a lot of publication / creative decisions.

'Selling' people on a world setting involves answering their questions, being polite about it, and being communicative and enthusiastic. See also Gronan's comments on how I do things; he's been there, done that, and gotten the t-shirt.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 30, 2015, 02:05:12 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;858266
Shucks...too bad I live so far away!!! Sounds cool. Maybe one day I can make it up north!!! Have fun.

H :0)


Understood! :)

I'll report back, and let everyone know how it all came out.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 30, 2015, 08:17:06 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;858288
I think I could do them again, if you thought that it would be useful.

Thoughts? Comments?


There is only one sure way to determine if they are useful and that is try it.

It is not uncommon for people to draw a blank when in an unfamiliar setting.
Having some easy to relate to videos would go a long way towards showing "How things are done here."
Makes aligning expectations much easier.
From those seeds great things could grow.

Maybe others that follow this thread could make suggestions of things that "seeing it done" would help with.
(or just written examples)
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 01, 2015, 02:39:04 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;858310
There is only one sure way to determine if they are useful and that is try it.

It is not uncommon for people to draw a blank when in an unfamiliar setting.
Having some easy to relate to videos would go a long way towards showing "How things are done here."
Makes aligning expectations much easier.
From those seeds great things could grow.

Maybe others that follow this thread could make suggestions of things that "seeing it done" would help with.
(or just written examples)
=


Good points! Would you think that a fifteen-minute 'short take' would be better?

Boring Technical Stuff: The little Bloggie we used to use let us upload live as we shot, but Qik was shut down after Skype was bought by Microsoft. It had a 30 minute memory, which gave us the limits for my first videos what are up on YouTube, but I'm thinking we shoot and record to the DVR, which gives us about 45 minutes per disk - the internal memory is much bigger, but dumping the video to DVD gives us more options for uploading to YouTube over time.

Shooting to the DVR allows for some 'added production value', as well, and makes for a nicer end product. We'd shoot this in the game room, using the Panasonic remote control camera (pan/tilt/zoom/etc) for the POV of my talking head, and have the titler in line for top and tail cards. It'd be quick, fast, and easy to do this, as the game room already has the lighting and other stuff for this kind of work.

Yeah, this is doable. Suggestions for topics will be needed; I can talk about anyti hing you like, but getting suggestions will be vital... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on October 01, 2015, 08:17:29 AM
Well, if it was just me ...
I'd like to see "Clan Life".
How to ask your clan for an "adventure".
How to request information from a temple / Imperial Official.
How to request assistance from a temple / Imperial Official.
How to pay off an accidental (or intentional) insult.
How to reserve a room at a distant clan house.

In other words, every day things that can give flavor to the setting without being such an ordeal that players quit.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 01, 2015, 10:18:33 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;858493
Well, if it was just me ...
I'd like to see "Clan Life".
How to ask your clan for an "adventure".
How to request information from a temple / Imperial Official.
How to request assistance from a temple / Imperial Official.
How to pay off an accidental (or intentional) insult.
How to reserve a room at a distant clan house.

In other words, every day things that can give flavor to the setting without being such an ordeal that players quit.
=


Well, "I'm bored and I want an adventure!" is likely to get you scraping out the clan's Chlen stables....

If you request information or assistance, the official is going to ask by what right you make that request.  Depending on your visible signs of status, the request will be more or less polite.

You would notify your clan-cousins in a distant city that you will be visiting on such and such a date and would love to see them.  As you get closer you update your arrival times.  When you arrive it is polite to bring presents.  This is your extended family, not Motel Six.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on October 01, 2015, 01:25:43 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;858503
Well, "I'm bored and I want an adventure!" is likely to get you scraping out the clan's Chlen stables....


Which is why knowing a "correct way" to ask is useful.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;858503
If you request information or assistance, the official is going to ask by what right you make that request.  Depending on your visible signs of status, the request will be more or less polite.


Which is why I was looking for how to "supplement" your personal status, the correct bribes and how to give them.
Not knowledge that the average American is fluent in.
(We use certifications, permits and licences in their place.)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;858503
You would notify your clan-cousins in a distant city that you will be visiting on such and such a date and would love to see them.  As you get closer you update your arrival times.  When you arrive it is polite to bring presents.  This is your extended family, not Motel Six.


Since some of the Players may never have left the city of their birth, it is not automatic knowledge.

While I do suspect that people that don't get out much would not be interested in playing in "an alien world", I could be wrong.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 01, 2015, 10:47:26 PM
Depends on the clan.  Some may not even have an "adventure."  For others, like a military clan, simply telling some clan uncle you want to do noble service for the clan will be enough.  Usually the clan will come to you.

2.  Again, it depends.  If it's a low level official, and out and out simple bribe will work.  "Here's 100 Khiatars.  There's another 100 if you disappear for an hour."

For a higher official, you will make a "social" visit and bring them an expensive gift you pass off as a mere trifle.  It may take several visits, and several expensive gifts, for your target to get around to asking what favor they can do for you.

3.  I assume your players have families?  Treat members of a distant clan house as third or fourth cousins you've never met, but also as though family is important.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 01, 2015, 10:48:38 PM
By the way, Chirine, I'm just rereading Flamesong.  Pu'er has just fallen to Qutmu's undead troops.  Did he get the high ride for that, or am I engaging in wishful thinking?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 02, 2015, 01:55:50 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;858493
Well, if it was just me ...
I'd like to see "Clan Life".
How to ask your clan for an "adventure".
How to request information from a temple / Imperial Official.
How to request assistance from a temple / Imperial Official.
How to pay off an accidental (or intentional) insult.
How to reserve a room at a distant clan house.

In other words, every day things that can give flavor to the setting without being such an ordeal that players quit.
=


Duly noted. I normally don't work from a script, but I'll be doing PowerPoint notes for these to stay on track.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 02, 2015, 01:59:19 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;858591
By the way, Chirine, I'm just rereading Flamesong.  Pu'er has just fallen to Qutmu's undead troops.  Did he get the high ride for that, or am I engaging in wishful thinking?


Yep, that's what he got it for - too much, even for the Worm Prince. There are days when I felt that His Imperial Princeness was getting really, really peeved by having to work with such minions.

(By the way, how did you like Phil's description of Third Mar? I've got his maps from the game, and I'm still surprised that we managed to survive.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 02, 2015, 10:14:39 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;858610
Yep, that's what he got it for - too much, even for the Worm Prince. There are days when I felt that His Imperial Princeness was getting really, really peeved by having to work with such minions.

Cha.  There are some players who, when you say "You can do anything but X," will spend all their time trying to do X.

Not quite as bad as out and out psychopaths, to quote Bill Hoyt, but annoying.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;858610
(By the way, how did you like Phil's description of Third Mar? I've got his maps from the game, and I'm still surprised that we managed to survive.)

My right hip still hurts on foggy mornings.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 02, 2015, 12:05:20 PM
Hello,

I just happened to be going through Mitlanyal...I came across Girigamish Legendary priest of Ksarul. His "Visitations of Girigamish speak of the cosmic landmarks: the Nine Pylons of the Barrier Gods, the Gate of Iron Fangs, and the River which Flows into Eternity...

Any more info about this? Also how this relates to the Mysteries of Tekumel?

Thanks,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 02, 2015, 02:19:15 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;858636
Cha.  There are some players who, when you say "You can do anything but X," will spend all their time trying to do X.

Not quite as bad as out and out psychopaths, to quote Bill Hoyt, but annoying

My right hip still hurts on foggy mornings.


Ain't that the truth... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 02, 2015, 02:41:36 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;858649
Hello,

I just happened to be going through Mitlanyal...I came across Girigamish Legendary priest of Ksarul. His "Visitations of Girigamish speak of the cosmic landmarks: the Nine Pylons of the Barrier Gods, the Gate of Iron Fangs, and the River which Flows into Eternity...

Any more info about this? Also how this relates to the Mysteries of Tekumel?

Thanks,

H :0)


The barrier Pylons mark the edge of the pocket dimension we're in; get past them and you're back out into Humanspace. The Gate of Iron Fangs is what you go through to get out. The River is the river of the time flow. (See also "Lords of Tsamra" for details.)

As for The Mysteries, it's the twenty who tossed Tekumel into the pocket, it's the Goddess of the Pale Bone who is trying to get it out; all of the Gods are Phil's homage to Lovecraft. (There was a lot of sharing universes back in Phil's time in fandom, remember.) You too can bring Tekumel back into Humanspace, by going up to the Temple of the Egg of the World, fixing this device of the Ancients - it's the controller for the terra-forming engines - and then use it to make the stars come out. The Space Marines will land, wipe out our current civilization, enslave everybody and everything on the planet, and reassert the rule of the Lords of Humanspace.

Phil told the original group, when they did all this back in 1975, that the Tekumel campaign was over and they would would now play something else. The players mutinied, telling him that they came out to his house to play Tekumel, and if they wanted to play Traveller they'd be going to the Fifth Precinct game group instead; as Craig Smith put it, "Now that the Marines have landed, I've gone from being a mighty Lord to being a slave. Guess what I think about that, Barker." (See also "Shared Fantasy", by Gary Fine, and "Playing at the World", by Jon Peterson.)

And LO! The stars went back out, the Space Marines got back on their mighty ships and departed, and we played Tekumel for the next decade and a half.

Anything else? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 02, 2015, 03:21:33 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;858668
The barrier Pylons mark the edge of the pocket dimension we're in; get past them and you're back out into Humanspace. The Gate of Iron Fangs is what you go through to get out. The River is the river of the time flow. (See also "Lords of Tsamra" for details.)

As for The Mysteries, it's the twenty who tossed Tekumel into the pocket, it's the Goddess of the Pale Bone who is trying to get it out; all of the Gods are Phil's homage to Lovecraft. (There was a lot of sharing universes back in Phil's time in fandom, remember.) You too can bring Tekumel back into Humanspace, by going up to the Temple of the Egg of the World, fixing this device of the Ancients - it's the controller for the terra-forming engines - and then use it to make the stars come out. The Space Marines will land, wipe out our current civilization, enslave everybody and everything on the planet, and reassert the rule of the Lords of Humanspace.

Phil told the original group, when they did all this back in 1975, that the Tekumel campaign was over and they would would now play something else. The players mutinied, telling him that they came out to his house to play Tekumel, and if they wanted to play Traveller they'd be going to the Fifth Precinct game group instead; as Craig Smith put it, "Now that the Marines have landed, I've gone from being a mighty Lord to being a slave. Guess what I think about that, Barker." (See also "Shared Fantasy", by Gary Fine, and "Playing at the World", by Jon Peterson.)

And LO! The stars went back out, the Space Marines got back on their mighty ships and departed, and we played Tekumel for the next decade and a half.

Anything else? :)


Yes.:)

Do the Pariah Deities have the amount of power/ability to make stuff happen in Bethorm as the Twenty do?

How big of a presence do the Pariah Deities have on Tekumel? As far as cults and or temples go...

Gij and Sons have the ability to go out to the pylons...Can they also easily cross over into Humanspace as well? G&S seem to be very powerful. What stops them from having a bigger political influence on Tekumel(or do they...)? I need to reread LoT...!!!

Thanks,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 03, 2015, 02:40:19 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;858673
Yes.:)

Do the Pariah Deities have the amount of power/ability to make stuff happen in Bethorm as the Twenty do?

How big of a presence do the Pariah Deities have on Tekumel? As far as cults and or temples go...

Gij and Sons have the ability to go out to the pylons...Can they also easily cross over into Humanspace as well? G&S seem to be very powerful. What stops them from having a bigger political influence on Tekumel(or do they...)? I need to reread LoT...!!!

Thanks,

H:0)


Well, let's see... :)

Yes, but to a much more limited extent. They have some very localized 'preserves' where they are dominant, but these are very few and far between and on the farthest fringes of the Five Empires. As we saw in "Man of Gold", they can also be interfered with by devices of the Ancients. The Goddess of the Pale Bone seems to be the most powerful of the set, but The One Other is still a factor in the Five Empires. (See below.) The One Who Is, well, is; we know very, very little about this one. None of the three had any sort of Temple or Priestly organization that we ever saw, or fought against. we did visit the Island of Eyes, where you find the circle-and-dot emblem of the One Other all over everything, but we had to leave in a real hurry - the locals were just not all that keen on us. I am assuming, in game terms, that a follower of one of these three would be able to ask for / roll for Divine Intervention, but it never came up - as far as I know, there was only one Pariah Deity player, and that was in the middling to late 1990s.

Generally, when and if they do act, it's through their followers; it was very, very rare to run into them on a first-hand basis.

In the Five Empires, they have a very, very low density and profile presence. Oddly enough, The One Other does have an 'official' presence in Avanthar, where there are abut a dozen priests and priestesses in residence in a very heavily guarded little temple suite. This seems to have something to do with the functioning of the Kolumeljalim, the choosing of the emperors; they officiate in a part of the ceremonies and rituals that are not open to anyone, including the OAL. This may be also related to their deity's role as the 'moderator' / 'referee' in the Conference of the Gods after the Battle of Dormoron Plain, where the imprisonment of Lord Ksarul was negotiated. (I found the seating plan in the files, much to my astonishment.)

Generally, one can occasionally find Pale Bone people in Underworlds, up to no good, and very rarely in the fringes of civilization, where they are looking after some ancient fane and getting up to yet more no good. One Other people are more rare, and tend to be very neutral and stay out of affairs. The followers of The One Who Is are even more rare, and are normally found only in the Island of Eyes.

Ah, Gij and Sons! :)

From what little we could find out, they don't go out past the Pylons; they have factors out there as a trading depot, and there seems to be a sort of 'shipping agency' that handles moving the merchandise across the barriers.

They are very powerful, but only in certain ways. They are first and foremost a mercantile organization, and put their own business interests before anything else. Their sealed city of Dlash is in effect an independent city-state, and has been since at least the Empire of Llyan of Tsamra. (Which drives the Livayani crazy, but they can't do anything about it.) Nobody knows an awful lot about what they do in there, and nobody really wants to find out - the Mu'uglavyani dealt with them to get the black anti-magic stones, but had to pay up front for them. It cost the Red-hats all their available cash, which is why the war stuttered and the move into western Tsolyani stalled; not enough of the ready to pay for everything.

And they could not simply move in and take the place over; too risky to have a go, as infantry don't do well against working Lightning Bringers.

Nobody, but nobody, messes around with either Gij or the Syndics of Dlash. It's just too risky.

They do tend to stay out of 'local' politics, as they look at it. They generally deal in only the rare and exotic, and only items of the finest quality and highest price. They will sell to any and all 'sides' in any conflict, but their prices are on a par with the difficulty of getting across the barriers between universes.

About the only 'local' that Gij and Sons deals with regularly is dear old Captain Harchar, but this - I suspect - is due to Harchar owning a device that lets him move himself, his merry crew of 'honest seafaring merchants', and his ship between the worlds. He's very useful to the firm for moving things around, and also for giving them access to several of the other pocket universes that Harchar knows about. They respect each other, and trust each other as far as they can throw Avanthar. Harchar sells the rare and exotic to them, and they sell much the same back to him.

Need a bucket of Flame Opals, for example? Gij and Sons just happen to have a source for them, and Harchar delivers...

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 03, 2015, 12:04:40 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;857414

Very cool that your wife is such a great reader! Congratulations! :)

And your last point may be right on track, from what I saw on Sunday when the tour group came through the game room... :)

Well, I'm more glad she's grasping systems fast.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;857913

I hate to ask this, but what's the 'politically incorrect barrier'? I mean, I see things like the "Are Orcs Racist?" thread go by, but I don't have any real grasp on what the issues are. Which probably makes me sexist, racist, culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, ageist, lookist, ableist, sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist, phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other type of bias as yet unnamed. It's like the current fashion for LGBT inclusion in games; back in the day, we didn't care much about it or worried about who was and wasn't LGBT; we just got on with the game, and tried to stay alive. These days, I feel like I have to ask new players for their Official LGBT Certification papers in  order to be able to let them play...

Anyway...

Whether or not our opponents were human or not never did seem to make much difference in our game play; either they were out to kill us, or we'd be able to negotiate something with them. Human or non-human, we'd work kind of hard at not getting into fights with them; melees very quickly got deadly, especially against heavy-duty beings like the Shen or Ahoggya, and as a matter of simple survival we'd try to find a way not to have to start slaughtering people. We spoke a lot of languages, and we could usually find a common tongue to communicate with people we ran into.

"Oh, too bad, your PC is dead, roll up another one" was not the way we played; we thought that our 'win' was from keeping our PCs alive, and moving them along their career paths. Tekumel is a very deadly place, especially if you go off the beaten path, and simple survival was a very big deal. In the Underworlds, combat was pretty common, as most of what we faced was not sapient and not open to discussion; same in the 'wilderness' areas. If we faced a sentient life-form, of whatever variety, we'd try to talk them out of killing us, and we usually managed to work out a pretty reasonable deal with them. We didn't kill them, they didn't kill us, and everybody walked away from the situation alive. That may sound kinda dull, but it did very - very, very! - often lead to much more exciting adventures, where the people (again, of all species) would suggest that we might want to have a look at something that had been giving them trouble, and maybe deal with the problem for them. (For a suitable reward, of course.)

Getting into combat was not a common thing with us, and when it was it was A Very Big Deal. It should be kept in mind that we'd played these same PCs for years, and we felt we had a vested interest in keeping them alive. When we did go into combat, we did so very hard, very fast, and very, very much out to win. We pulled no punches whatsoever, and even in the early days of the campaign we got a well-deserved reputation for being ruthless killers if we were provoked. This, in turn, led us into yet more interesting adventures, as having a squad of ruthless killers who were quick, fast, and clever was considered to be A Very Good Thing to have around by a great many people who could make it worth our while to put ourselves into danger on their behalf.

I killed a lot of people, of all kinds, over the years. I also worked with and for a lot more people, again of all kinds, as well. On the whole, the latter out-numbered the former, and everybody walked away with something nice.

Does any of this help, at all? :)

You know what I'm getting out of it?
I'll need to tell my players that most of them Are Playing It Right.
Funny how different influences can lead to the same place. (I suspect that with them, it was being made to read The Six Ways To Avoid A Fight and playing in modern-world settings where Killing Is Bad For Business that's a primary influence to get to that playstyle. That, and I'm playing systems where the mightiest warrior can die if shot on a failed defence roll).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;857948

I certainly can talk about this forever, which would probably bore you to tears; let me say that one of the really wonderful things about gaming with Phil was having a front-row seat for the creative process as he developed and refined what he wanted to do. It was like out time with Gordy Dickson; we had a front row seat for the Dorsai, too...

Can you be more specific? Which particular mystery do you have in mind?

Can you tell us more about GD? The Dorsai are an interesting series, I quite like the first couple of books.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;857949
Understood. "NAKED! THEY'RE NAKED!"; "OMG! LESBIANS!"; etc. I used to have to deal with this a lot at conventions; Tekumel used to be considered the 'naughty' world-setting...

Ah! Gotcha! Yeah, the XP thing is something that Phil pretty much ignored after about the first two or three years of play. We'd just do the mission, survive, and get rewarded with ranks and position - which would also bring in the cash, with which we'd buy / learn new spells and skills. Phil would just do it off the top of his head, but I agree - coming up with a way to simulate this in a modern game is going to take some thought.

We'd usually hire a tutor or somebody, and then take a six-month 'vacation' in the game to pick up something new. Once we'd gotten that, it was back to the adventures...

The first time one of my players asked me if he could 'level up' I had no idea what he was talking about... :)

I tend to do the number-crunching in my head, and then tell the player what they have to work with. It keeps the game going, and seems to work out pretty well.

1) You mean there are non-naughty settings? What are people doing in them:p?

2) The part about tutors and downtime? It's pure Traveller. And I know I've mentioned Traveller, but that's more to prove that yes, you can have a game without XP!
Although in all fairness, my houserule for Traveller is to note successful and unsuccessful uses of all skills, by skill. You need to have them in order to be allowed to roll for learning a skill...by a tutor. (Or you can make the same roll, but needing more downtime and more checks, to discover it yourself).
One day I'm going to run Traveller with this game. I can predict the sweet screams of the powerplayers:D!
(I'm a kind of powerplayer, too, and unashamed of it. But my kind of powerplaying is being a Tactician, and the more restrictions, the better I feel when I manage working around all of them;)).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;857972
Which is very cool! I wonder why this never seemed to get any attention from people?

Well, RuneQuest fans already has a quirky, well-developed world to play in, don't they? And one where info is much easier to find than it is for Tekumel.

Quote from: Greentongue;858018
I think that from the descriptions Chirine ba Kal is giving, Savage Worlds would be a good fit.
I actually fooled around with doing so. (http://home.earthlink.net/~djackson24/Delbert6a.htm)
Needed a bit more experience in both.

May I give you an advice?
Take the Savage Worlds Deluxe, Savage Worlds Mars (by Adamant), and you're more than halway there. The powers list might require some work, but you can do that on a case by case basis.
(If you want to make your life even easier, swipe the lifepaths from Beyond the Wall and re-work them for SW and Tekumel. The two main things are your Temple, and your Clan. Best of all, you only need to flesh out the Powers/Spells that appear on the lifepaths).

Admittedly, I'm currently thinking that the best solution might be to rework Maelstrom Domesday's system. But then I usually prefer more low-key systems.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;858148

On the other had, Jeff Dee's "Bethorm" is about as close as you'll get to what Phil probably intended with S&G. I played in a game of it with him, and I though that it was a very good analog to what Phil was doing in his games - when he bothered with rules at all, which was always happening with him...

Personally, I'll always prefer EPT, with S&G's spells; again, this is what "bethorm" does a good job with.

I'm really glad to hear that. It means there's at least two decent game introductions for Tekumel that are available (the original 1975 EPT, and the Bethorm).
Given that the fan-made rule systems vary from RQ variants to anything you can think of, maybe your book would make more people interested in the setting. Which would be a good thing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 03, 2015, 07:35:42 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;858768
Well, let's see... :)

Yes, but to a much more limited extent. They have some very localized 'preserves' where they are dominant, but these are very few and far between and on the farthest fringes of the Five Empires. As we saw in "Man of Gold", they can also be interfered with by devices of the Ancients. The Goddess of the Pale Bone seems to be the most powerful of the set, but The One Other is still a factor in the Five Empires. (See below.) The One Who Is, well, is; we know very, very little about this one. None of the three had any sort of Temple or Priestly organization that we ever saw, or fought against. we did visit the Island of Eyes, where you find the circle-and-dot emblem of the One Other all over everything, but we had to leave in a real hurry - the locals were just not all that keen on us. I am assuming, in game terms, that a follower of one of these three would be able to ask for / roll for Divine Intervention, but it never came up - as far as I know, there was only one Pariah Deity player, and that was in the middling to late 1990s.

Generally, when and if they do act, it's through their followers; it was very, very rare to run into them on a first-hand basis.

In the Five Empires, they have a very, very low density and profile presence. Oddly enough, The One Other does have an 'official' presence in Avanthar, where there are abut a dozen priests and priestesses in residence in a very heavily guarded little temple suite. This seems to have something to do with the functioning of the Kolumeljalim, the choosing of the emperors; they officiate in a part of the ceremonies and rituals that are not open to anyone, including the OAL. This may be also related to their deity's role as the 'moderator' / 'referee' in the Conference of the Gods after the Battle of Dormoron Plain, where the imprisonment of Lord Ksarul was negotiated. (I found the seating plan in the files, much to my astonishment.)

Generally, one can occasionally find Pale Bone people in Underworlds, up to no good, and very rarely in the fringes of civilization, where they are looking after some ancient fane and getting up to yet more no good. One Other people are more rare, and tend to be very neutral and stay out of affairs. The followers of The One Who Is are even more rare, and are normally found only in the Island of Eyes.

Ah, Gij and Sons! :)

From what little we could find out, they don't go out past the Pylons; they have factors out there as a trading depot, and there seems to be a sort of 'shipping agency' that handles moving the merchandise across the barriers.

They are very powerful, but only in certain ways. They are first and foremost a mercantile organization, and put their own business interests before anything else. Their sealed city of Dlash is in effect an independent city-state, and has been since at least the Empire of Llyan of Tsamra. (Which drives the Livayani crazy, but they can't do anything about it.) Nobody knows an awful lot about what they do in there, and nobody really wants to find out - the Mu'uglavyani dealt with them to get the black anti-magic stones, but had to pay up front for them. It cost the Red-hats all their available cash, which is why the war stuttered and the move into western Tsolyani stalled; not enough of the ready to pay for everything.

And they could not simply move in and take the place over; too risky to have a go, as infantry don't do well against working Lightning Bringers.

Nobody, but nobody, messes around with either Gij or the Syndics of Dlash. It's just too risky.

They do tend to stay out of 'local' politics, as they look at it. They generally deal in only the rare and exotic, and only items of the finest quality and highest price. They will sell to any and all 'sides' in any conflict, but their prices are on a par with the difficulty of getting across the barriers between universes.

About the only 'local' that Gij and Sons deals with regularly is dear old Captain Harchar, but this - I suspect - is due to Harchar owning a device that lets him move himself, his merry crew of 'honest seafaring merchants', and his ship between the worlds. He's very useful to the firm for moving things around, and also for giving them access to several of the other pocket universes that Harchar knows about. They respect each other, and trust each other as far as they can throw Avanthar. Harchar sells the rare and exotic to them, and they sell much the same back to him.

Need a bucket of Flame Opals, for example? Gij and Sons just happen to have a source for them, and Harchar delivers...

Does this help?


Yes, a big help!!! You even made the mysteries of Tekumel seem not so mysterious!!! :)

Speaking of Dlash...Certain courtesans have powers(the voice)akin to the Bene Gesserit "witches" in FH's Dune. Are there other mental powers that you know of that Dlashi women may learn? Was this a homage to Dune by the Professor?

Thanks,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 03, 2015, 11:12:13 PM
You know, Tekumel's mild semi-nudity really reflects American history.

In 1976 it wasn't that big a deal; Eldrich Wizardry had a nude woman on the cover, and the Monster Manual showed several monsters from mythology (succubus, harpy, lamia, sphinx) that were part naked woman.  The 1976 World SF convention had a stripper as halftime entertainment at the masquerade (though there was more nudity IN the masquerade), and KC was picked because the hotel allowed skinny dipping in the pool after dark (which was one of the requirements for the convention.)  Virtually any person at a SF con or SCA event would get propositioned multiple times a day by people of either sex, and by 1974 it was already a cliche at Star Trek cons to "paint your tits green and go to the masquerade as an Orion slave girl".

American society took an enormous jump to the prudish in the 1980s and we've been accelerating that way ever sense, it seems.  Both men and women wore costumes at cons in the 70s that I think would probably get you arrested now.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 03, 2015, 11:41:55 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;858807

You know what I'm getting out of it?
I'll need to tell my players that most of them Are Playing It Right.
Funny how different influences can lead to the same place. (I suspect that with them, it was being made to read The Six Ways To Avoid A Fight and playing in modern-world settings where Killing Is Bad For Business that's a primary influence to get to that playstyle. That, and I'm playing systems where the mightiest warrior can die if shot on a failed defence roll).

Can you tell us more about GD? The Dorsai are an interesting series, I quite like the first couple of books.

1) You mean there are non-naughty settings? What are people doing in them:p?

2) The part about tutors and downtime? It's pure Traveller. And I know I've mentioned Traveller, but that's more to prove that yes, you can have a game without XP!

I'm really glad to hear that. It means there's at least two decent game introductions for Tekumel that are available (the original 1975 EPT, and the Bethorm).
Given that the fan-made rule systems vary from RQ variants to anything you can think of, maybe your book would make more people interested in the setting. Which would be a good thing.


Let me take a run at this...

Yes, I'd agree with you on your players, given the way we played. Survival was our goal most of the time, pure and simple.

I could talk about Gordy for hours. Where would you like me to start? The time I saved his book collection in his basement from the flood? Or on writing? I'm afraid you'll have to be more specific... :)

1). Yes. Pretty much all of the early games were a lot 'cleaner' then Tekumel was thought to be.

2) Precisely. Couldn't agree more, myself.

Yep, I'm hoping that my account of our adventures will introduce Tekumel to people; one can only hope... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 03, 2015, 11:52:01 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;858888
Yes, a big help!!! You even made the mysteries of Tekumel seem not so mysterious!!! :)

Speaking of Dlash...Certain courtesans have powers(the voice)akin to the Bene Gesserit "witches" in FH's Dune. Are there other mental powers that you know of that Dlashi women may learn? Was this a homage to Dune by the Professor?

Thanks,

H :0)


I don't know if it was a shout-out to Dune, but I do know that it's a shout-out to Merritt, Howard, and their fellow 'pulp' writers. Traditionally in the 'heroic Fantasy' genre, women are more 'magical' then men; Phil used this in a number of ways, but cast it in the context of his Lords of Humanspace - who, I keep wanting to emphasize, were not nice people. If somebody developed traits talents, or abilities that they found useful, those people were bred to each other to enhance and increase those abilities. The Nylss, the Nom, and the natural telepaths of both 'lost' Bayarsha (You can have the place, thank you!) and the Nyemsel Isles are all examples of this. Go back into the pulps for more of this, too.

So, yes, the Dlashi make sure that women who have useful abilities get preferential treatment - if not, perhaps, their choices of mates! In game terms, you can expect to see all the classic 'psychic'/'psionic' (or whatever these things are called these days) being used in special circumstances as they might be needed to further the interests of the Syndics. Telepathy, telekinesis, etc. have all been seen in action over the years, and we've learned to be very cautious when dealing with anyone who seems to have any connection with Dlash. The men don't seem to have anywhere nearly the same range of abilities or strength, though...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 04, 2015, 12:08:59 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;858901
You know, Tekumel's mild semi-nudity really reflects American history.

In 1976 it wasn't that big a deal; Eldrich Wizardry had a nude woman on the cover, and the Monster Manual showed several monsters from mythology (succubus, harpy, lamia, sphinx) that were part naked woman.  The 1976 World SF convention had a stripper as halftime entertainment at the masquerade (though there was more nudity IN the masquerade), and KC was picked because the hotel allowed skinny dipping in the pool after dark (which was one of the requirements for the convention.)  Virtually any person at a SF con or SCA event would get propositioned multiple times a day by people of either sex, and by 1974 it was already a cliche at Star Trek cons to "paint your tits green and go to the masquerade as an Orion slave girl".

American society took an enormous jump to the prudish in the 1980s and we've been accelerating that way ever sense, it seems.  Both men and women wore costumes at cons in the 70s that I think would probably get you arrested now.


Mmmm. I think I agree with your point, but maybe with a minor clarification or two.

F/SF fandom, in our day, was very influenced by the 'counter-culture' at the time; fandom before and after the war was a lot more conservative and a lot more 'strait-laced' then what it became in the very late Sixties and early to middle Seventies. Nudity at conventions was very common then, as a way of "freaking the mundanes" - a lot of it was for the shock value, from what I saw. What one could do then was, as you point out, a lot different then what you could do now and not get a huge reaction on the Internet. That, in turn, is what drives a lot of the 'outrage factor' that we see today, where anything and everything is going to get a very mixed response.

Could we do those kinds of costumes at conventions today? No. The boredom reaction set in pretty early, especially after Tim and Otter Zell's series of non-costumes. Costumers, as a genre, got bored with the notion, and moved on to the much more elaborate costumes we saw developing in the early 1980s. "No costume is no costume", as The Masquerade Handbook says...

Tekumel / EPT had lots of nekked people, for that time and place, and stuff that was not mainstream at the time. Now, it's pretty tame in comparison to what you can find anywhere on the net.

What I think we're looking at is a shift in the way people communicate - remember the guy out in front of Coffman who told us that we were all going to go to Hell for being college students? His son has now taken up the mantle, but you can read his stuff on his website - more people look at their smart phones then they do at him.

These days, the people who might have been offended by the illustrations back then have the web to express their outrage; from what I see in my daily life, a lot of what we saw back in the day in fandom would get a bored yawn, especially in comparison with what they are seeing on YouTube.

My gut feeling is that the signal to noise ratio on the Internet is the big shift that you describe; the shift in real life - at least in the small slice of it that I see every day - is more the opposite.

Don't know, I guess. I just keep soldiering on... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 04, 2015, 12:11:18 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;858901
You know, Tekumel's mild semi-nudity really reflects American history.

In 1976 it wasn't that big a deal; Eldrich Wizardry had a nude woman on the cover, and the Monster Manual showed several monsters from mythology (succubus, harpy, lamia, sphinx) that were part naked woman.  The 1976 World SF convention had a stripper as halftime entertainment at the masquerade (though there was more nudity IN the masquerade), and KC was picked because the hotel allowed skinny dipping in the pool after dark (which was one of the requirements for the convention.)  Virtually any person at a SF con or SCA event would get propositioned multiple times a day by people of either sex, and by 1974 it was already a cliche at Star Trek cons to "paint your tits green and go to the masquerade as an Orion slave girl".

American society took an enormous jump to the prudish in the 1980s and we've been accelerating that way ever sense, it seems.  Both men and women wore costumes at cons in the 70s that I think would probably get you arrested now.


Bring us back from the brink Glorious General!!! Soon we won't even be able to ask questions about the old days of Tekumel...

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 04, 2015, 12:21:29 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;858907
Bring us back from the brink Glorious General!!! Soon we won't even be able to ask questions about the old days of Tekumel...

H :0)


Yep. I have found that Europeans are a lot less attuned to skin then a lot of Americans are, which I think has something to do with Our Founders were the ones who got kicked out of Europe for being the ones who could not get along with everyone. (See also the "Quicksilver" trilogy for a very good, and very funny look at this subject.)

These days, it's all about "maintaining the brand identity" and being all -inclusive, it seems. And it can go to far; I had a guest GM in last month who ran a very 'age-inappropriate' session, and I was not pleased. The session would have been fine with adults playing, but did not go over well with the junior high-school and high-school aged players we had. All I wanted was for the guest GM to ask the players first, but he let his activism get in the way of consideration.

Can I say anything to him? I don't know - I'd be accused of some sort of 'anti-ism' bias and prejudice if I did, I fear. And that sort of chilling effect is not a good thing, if you ask my opinion...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 04, 2015, 12:30:02 AM
Ah, yes, the Internet.

"The Internet, the Internet, what happened to the Internet," to paraphrase Danny Kaye.

The Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory  is true.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

Further, before the Internet every village had its idiot, but now they gather at VillageIdiots.Com and support each other.  The "Bandar-Log" factor.

Further, the trend that C.S. Lewis noted way back in "Screwtape Proposes a Toast" has intensified as people apply "democracy" not to a system of voting, but to the notion that all opinions are equally valid.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 04, 2015, 12:38:05 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;858904
I don't know if it was a shout-out to Dune, but I do know that it's a shout-out to Merritt, Howard, and their fellow 'pulp' writers. Traditionally in the 'heroic Fantasy' genre, women are more 'magical' then men; Phil used this in a number of ways, but cast it in the context of his Lords of Humanspace - who, I keep wanting to emphasize, were not nice people. If somebody developed traits talents, or abilities that they found useful, those people were bred to each other to enhance and increase those abilities. The Nylss, the Nom, and the natural telepaths of both 'lost' Bayarsha (You can have the place, thank you!) and the Nyemsel Isles are all examples of this. Go back into the pulps for more of this, too.

So, yes, the Dlashi make sure that women who have useful abilities get preferential treatment - if not, perhaps, their choices of mates! In game terms, you can expect to see all the classic 'psychic'/'psionic' (or whatever these things are called these days) being used in special circumstances as they might be needed to further the interests of the Syndics. Telepathy, telekinesis, etc. have all been seen in action over the years, and we've learned to be very cautious when dealing with anyone who seems to have any connection with Dlash. The men don't seem to have anywhere nearly the same range of abilities or strength, though...


Ahh, I really have to to catch up on my sci-fi pulp. I'm more familiar with the fantasy and horror writers, Smith, Howard, Lovecraft, etc. But the sci-fi writers...
So much to read!!!

I actually bought a copy of The Demolished Man by Alfred Bester this week(local used book store, great price). I haven't had a chance to start it yet. Thanks.

Take care,
H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 04, 2015, 06:33:23 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;858906

F/SF fandom, in our day, was very influenced by the 'counter-culture' at the time; fandom before and after the war was a lot more conservative and a lot more 'strait-laced' then what it became in the very late Sixties and early to middle Seventies. Nudity at conventions was very common then, as a way of "freaking the mundanes" - a lot of it was for the shock value, from what I saw.


That... is a really good point.  The popularity and power of Star Trek and Star Wars played a huge role in mainstreaming fantasy and SF.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 04, 2015, 06:52:52 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;858902
Let me take a run at this...

Yes, I'd agree with you on your players, given the way we played. Survival was our goal most of the time, pure and simple.

I could talk about Gordy for hours. Where would you like me to start? The time I saved his book collection in his basement from the flood? Or on writing? I'm afraid you'll have to be more specific... :)

1). Yes. Pretty much all of the early games were a lot 'cleaner' then Tekumel was thought to be.

2) Precisely. Couldn't agree more, myself.

Yep, I'm hoping that my account of our adventures will introduce Tekumel to people; one can only hope... :)

Well, about GDickson, wherever you want...:)
I'm more interested in his writing. But I can sense that the book collection in the basement is going to be an entertaining one...
Let's start with it;).

On clean games - I know, I just avoid them. The Middle Ages had lots of naughtiness going under some cover, and often without it, too. That was even before we get to stuff like the 17th century...
(Acceptable naughtiness in a culture ebbs and flows, though. In the West, it really went down at the time of the Industrial Revolution...unless you were out of the West proper, where anything goes).
Thing is, even in the most prudish setting, PCs are likely to meet people that regard such rules as something that concerns other people. Hence, my joke that I don't know such settings.

And one can hope for more interested players after your book becomes available. We're going to kick the social media to make it known. And then we're going to see the effect!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 04, 2015, 07:51:26 PM
Shrug.  What's a "clean" setting?  I've played both Star Wars and 4 color comic book superhero games with great enjoyment, and in both those universes sex virtually doesn't exist.  Except for Anakin and Padme one could get the impression that people in Star Wars procreate by budding, and in 1970s comic books there is apparently spontaneous generation.  But the games were lots of fun.

The simple fact is that most of the time it doesn't matter.  Further, I play RPGs to do things I can't do in real life.  I've been sexually active for over 40 years, but in real life I have yet to do a 30 foot Force powered leap into a bunch of Imperial Stormtroopers and start laying about with my lightsaber.

Frankly, watching "the other group" doing sexual roleplay was more boring than anything else.  "Yes, yes, you sticked it in her mouth and she went oog.  Happy?  Can we do something interesting now?"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on October 04, 2015, 08:01:39 PM
As I frequently explain to the kids I run games for at my store.  This game is G rated, none of the people even have genetilia and babies are made by kissing too long with the wrong background music playing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 04, 2015, 09:39:40 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;858911
Ah, yes, the Internet.

"The Internet, the Internet, what happened to the Internet," to paraphrase Danny Kaye.

The Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory  is true.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

Further, before the Internet every village had its idiot, but now they gather at VillageIdiots.Com and support each other.  The "Bandar-Log" factor.

Further, the trend that C.S. Lewis noted way back in "Screwtape Proposes a Toast" has intensified as people apply "democracy" not to a system of voting, but to the notion that all opinions are equally valid.


True, this; I need to register that domain name. I'll make a fortune, and be able to support my lead habit. :)

(Currently painting the wonderful figures from Dark Fable Miniatures: http://www.darkfableminiatures.com/ (http://www.darkfableminiatures.com/) and loving it!)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 04, 2015, 09:41:00 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;858914
Ahh, I really have to to catch up on my sci-fi pulp. I'm more familiar with the fantasy and horror writers, Smith, Howard, Lovecraft, etc. But the sci-fi writers...
So much to read!!!

I actually bought a copy of The Demolished Man by Alfred Bester this week(local used book store, great price). I haven't had a chance to start it yet. Thanks.

Take care,
H :0)


Excellent! I think you'll find some wonderful source materials in there...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 04, 2015, 09:42:57 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859003
That... is a really good point.  The popularity and power of Star Trek and Star Wars played a huge role in mainstreaming fantasy and SF.


And remember how much weeping and wailing there was from the 'true fans' about how us 'media fans' were ruining their conventions and fan clubs? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 04, 2015, 09:54:59 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;859026
And remember how much weeping and wailing there was from the 'true fans' about how us 'media fans' were ruining their conventions and fan clubs? :)


Oh, Crom, I'd forgotten that.  And now Dragon Con is what... 60,000 people or so?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 04, 2015, 09:57:23 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;859024
(Currently painting the wonderful figures from Dark Fable Miniatures: http://www.darkfableminiatures.com/ (http://www.darkfableminiatures.com/) and loving it!)
Those are cool. I like the fact that they included some pygmies/dwarfs.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 04, 2015, 10:17:55 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;859006
Well, about GDickson, wherever you want...:)
I'm more interested in his writing. But I can sense that the book collection in the basement is going to be an entertaining one...
Let's start with it;).

On clean games - I know, I just avoid them. The Middle Ages had lots of naughtiness going under some cover, and often without it, too. That was even before we get to stuff like the 17th century...
(Acceptable naughtiness in a culture ebbs and flows, though. In the West, it really went down at the time of the Industrial Revolution...unless you were out of the West proper, where anything goes).
Thing is, even in the most prudish setting, PCs are likely to meet people that regard such rules as something that concerns other people. Hence, my joke that I don't know such settings.

And one can hope for more interested players after your book becomes available. We're going to kick the social media to make it known. And then we're going to see the effect!


All right; you'll have to ask more specific questions about Gordy's writing, though.

So, anyway, this was back when I was living in Gordy and Poul Anderson's old apartment in the Bozo Bus Building (the fannish apartment building here in the Twin Cities - 343 East 19th Street, Apt. 4B, to be exact) I I get a call from Gordy; it's been raining hard, and his basement is flooding. He runs his publishing company, Otterburn Publications, from there, as the books are in real danger. I gathered up two friends from across the hall, and we go out to Gordy's house; the situation is indeed dire, and immediate action is called for. The two friends and Gordy start hauling the books up the stairs in a human chain, and I have a look at the door that leads to the exterior stairwell that leads to the basement.

I open it a bit, and close it right up again; there is about two to three cubic meters of water in the stairwell. The drain has gotten plugged up, and we're about to get inundated. I do the player-character thing, and strip off and dive into the water from outside at the top of the stairs. It's freezing cold, of course, but I manage to get the leaves blocking the drain removed, and you can feel the suction as the water starts to funnel out.

Gordy's elderly mother, the wonderful and tough-as-nails Mrs. Dickson, then throws me into warmed towels and pours hot cocoa into me. The books are saved, and Gordy gave me a water-damaged copy of his "Home From The Shore" and a bottle of Drambuie as a thank you. I still have both; he was kind enough to write me a very nice note in the book.

I agree with you about 'clean' games; most historical settings have a very real undercurrent of nasty stuff, and many F/SF ones do as well. For me, and I think this is what you're getting at, there's a difference between between them being part of the game and being part of the setting. One example that I can think of was the night in Tsamra when Vrisa 'propositioned' Chirine; he accepted, Phil nodded, and we got on with the game session. We did not make a big or graphic deal about it; it was two consenting adults being adults, and it was felt by the group to be more sweet and romantic then salacious. (My daughters, who are kind enough to read my book and offer comments, said the same thing some thirty years later - 'poignant', was the word used.)

As Gronan writes in his reply, we just didn't game that way; we assumed that we were all more-or-less responsible adults, and we tended to behave that way when gaming. Which never stopped us from doing little victory dances when we rolled really well in a miniatures game, or whooping and hollering when things were going well; swooning and doing period exclamations of anguish - "BOGE MOI!" when my Russian T-44s would lose their crummy transmissions, or "GOTT IN HIMMEL!" when the Grant came out of the desert dust at my poor little Pz. I, for example - were also part of the game play.

My issue with the 'age-appropriate' game was not based on content, it was based on the negative reaction from the young players; they weren't thrilled at the propaganda, and wanted to know what it all had to do with the game. I try to keep the players interested and engaged; one of them actually fell asleep during the game...

I'd like to think that my book will amuse and amaze people, and give them an introduction to the Tekumel we knew with Phil. It was a fascinating place, full of mystery and adventure... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 04, 2015, 10:21:51 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859011
Shrug.  What's a "clean" setting?  I've played both Star Wars and 4 color comic book superhero games with great enjoyment, and in both those universes sex virtually doesn't exist.  Except for Anakin and Padme one could get the impression that people in Star Wars procreate by budding, and in 1970s comic books there is apparently spontaneous generation.  But the games were lots of fun.

The simple fact is that most of the time it doesn't matter.  Further, I play RPGs to do things I can't do in real life.  I've been sexually active for over 40 years, but in real life I have yet to do a 30 foot Force powered leap into a bunch of Imperial Stormtroopers and start laying about with my lightsaber.

Frankly, watching "the other group" doing sexual roleplay was more boring than anything else.  "Yes, yes, you sticked it in her mouth and she went oog.  Happy?  Can we do something interesting now?"


Agreed. I don't think graphic sex adds anything to a game, and I don't include it on any of mine. We're here for Romance, along with the Action and Adventure.

Yep, and they got immortalized in Fine's "Shared Fantasy" for it, too. Nice way to be remembered for thirty-five years... :o
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on October 04, 2015, 10:29:36 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;859026
And remember how much weeping and wailing there was from the 'true fans' about how us 'media fans' were ruining their conventions and fan clubs? :)


For all that, if I ever get my hands on a time machine my first stop will be a pre-Star Trek science fiction convention.

Then a Gen Con or two in the late seventies and early eighties before things got so big.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 04, 2015, 10:29:41 PM
Gordy Dickson's mom was indeed one in a million.  I miss her almost as much as Gordy.

I remember the one or two games we used the "Vehicle Breakdown" rules from Tractics.  First, as Chirine said, the Russian tanks spewed spare parts all over the wilderness.

In the next game it was Americans vs Germans.  The Americans' best tactic was to take advantage of the fact that the Sherman tank engine and transmission were, like most well tested US gear, extremely reliable, and make the Germans chase them until the Tiger suffered a breakdown.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 04, 2015, 10:32:09 PM
And the "We'll always have Tsamra" romance with Vrisa and Chirine illustrates my other point; courtship and romance are extremely compelling in a way that actual sex (except for those involved) is not.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 04, 2015, 10:35:39 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;859013
As I frequently explain to the kids I run games for at my store.  This game is G rated, none of the people even have genetilia and babies are made by kissing too long with the wrong background music playing.


Yep; this. I'd venture to say that they're more interested in the adventure... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 04, 2015, 10:50:26 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859029
Oh, Crom, I'd forgotten that.  And now Dragon Con is what... 60,000 people or so?


Yep. It's the merger of three separate conventions under one management. And Minicon here in the Twin Cities is still struggling to get back to something like what they had before the 'true fans' (aka The Gang Of Ten) purged all of us gamers, costumers, and media fans back in the middle 1990s. Meanewhile, all of the purged people are still running their own convention, Convergence, with over 3,500 people...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 04, 2015, 10:52:55 PM
Quote from: Bren;859030
Those are cool. I like the fact that they included some pygmies/dwarfs.


Oh, agreed! For the first time, we have all those 'Hollywood Aegyptian' figurs to run games in the palace or the marketplace with. We had some wonderful games like that with Phil, and I think he would have loved these figures. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 04, 2015, 10:59:44 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;859035
For all that, if I ever get my hands on a time machine my first stop will be a pre-Star Trek science fiction convention.

Then a Gen Con or two in the late seventies and early eighties before things got so big.


If you went to the 1950s, it's all about heavy drinking and practical jokes in very poor taste - or so that nice Mr. Ackerman told me. In the late 1960s and 1970s, it was all about heavy drinking, casual sex, and heavy drug use. If you were looking for F/SF stuff, it was pretty light on the ground.

Those early Gen-cons, on the other hand, were lots of fun!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 04, 2015, 11:03:40 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859036
Gordy Dickson's mom was indeed one in a million.  I miss her almost as much as Gordy.

I remember the one or two games we used the "Vehicle Breakdown" rules from Tractics.  First, as Chirine said, the Russian tanks spewed spare parts all over the wilderness.

In the next game it was Americans vs Germans.  The Americans' best tactic was to take advantage of the fact that the Sherman tank engine and transmission were, like most well tested US gear, extremely reliable, and make the Germans chase them until the Tiger suffered a breakdown.


She was, wasn't she? :)

And Gods, were those breakdown rules hysterical. That game with the Soviets' and their new tanks dodging the 3:15 express was one of the funniest things we ever ran. And that poor Tiger crew! What got them in the end was the manual turret traverse - they wound up being utterly exhausted trying to nail the swarm of circling Shermans...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 04, 2015, 11:08:15 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859037
And the "We'll always have Tsamra" romance with Vrisa and Chirine illustrates my other point; courtship and romance are extremely compelling in a way that actual sex (except for those involved) is not.


Agreed. It was a great night of gaming, and I think we were all at the top of our form. We had a very similar night - one of the very best, people said - when Phil married Chirine off to Si N'te. Vrisa also got her husband Koro Tai at the same time; maybe it's something in the water? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 05, 2015, 09:48:24 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859011
Shrug.  What's a "clean" setting?  I've played both Star Wars and 4 color comic book superhero games with great enjoyment, and in both those universes sex virtually doesn't exist.  Except for Anakin and Padme one could get the impression that people in Star Wars procreate by budding, and in 1970s comic books there is apparently spontaneous generation.  But the games were lots of fun.

The simple fact is that most of the time it doesn't matter.  Further, I play RPGs to do things I can't do in real life.  I've been sexually active for over 40 years, but in real life I have yet to do a 30 foot Force powered leap into a bunch of Imperial Stormtroopers and start laying about with my lightsaber.

Frankly, watching "the other group" doing sexual roleplay was more boring than anything else.  "Yes, yes, you sticked it in her mouth and she went oog.  Happy?  Can we do something interesting now?"
If you re-read my posts, Gronan, I'm not talking about the act of sex itself. But way too many people seem to have an averse reaction to stuff like romance, and marriages and kids?
I've been told in no uncertain terms that there are tables where this simply doesn't happen. I've seen those, too, though I didn't stay around.

And don't even think of PCs walking around according to "Barsoomian fashion"! There are enough people that would explain to you how it's exploitation. Even if you're playing on Barsoom, or a Barsoom-inspired setting.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859037
And the "We'll always have Tsamra" romance with Vrisa and Chirine illustrates my other point; courtship and romance are extremely compelling in a way that actual sex (except for those involved) is not.
Yeah, so?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 05, 2015, 10:32:23 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;859033
All right; you'll have to ask more specific questions about Gordy's writing, though.

So, anyway, this was back when I was living in Gordy and Poul Anderson's old apartment in the Bozo Bus Building (the fannish apartment building here in the Twin Cities - 343 East 19th Street, Apt. 4B, to be exact) I I get a call from Gordy; it's been raining hard, and his basement is flooding. He runs his publishing company, Otterburn Publications, from there, as the books are in real danger. I gathered up two friends from across the hall, and we go out to Gordy's house; the situation is indeed dire, and immediate action is called for. The two friends and Gordy start hauling the books up the stairs in a human chain, and I have a look at the door that leads to the exterior stairwell that leads to the basement.

I open it a bit, and close it right up again; there is about two to three cubic meters of water in the stairwell. The drain has gotten plugged up, and we're about to get inundated. I do the player-character thing, and strip off and dive into the water from outside at the top of the stairs. It's freezing cold, of course, but I manage to get the leaves blocking the drain removed, and you can feel the suction as the water starts to funnel out.

Gordy's elderly mother, the wonderful and tough-as-nails Mrs. Dickson, then throws me into warmed towels and pours hot cocoa into me. The books are saved, and Gordy gave me a water-damaged copy of his "Home From The Shore" and a bottle of Drambuie as a thank you. I still have both; he was kind enough to write me a very nice note in the book.

And it's a great story! Gotta respect someone who would risk injusry for books:).
(People have fought, killed and died for stupider reasons).

And now, why did Gordon Dickson decide to write about individual war heroes, as opposed to people that are experts in logistics and leading others?
As a follow-up question, was he an RPG player?

Quote
I agree with you about 'clean' games; most historical settings have a very real undercurrent of nasty stuff, and many F/SF ones do as well. For me, and I think this is what you're getting at, there's a difference between between them being part of the game and being part of the setting.

Well, my point is, they're usually part of both.
Your PCs often need people that aren't afraid to break a law or five, given the right enticement. What are the odds none of those would be into naughtier stuff? What are the odds you wouldn't at least witness this if you develop a close working relationship with them?
Conversely, anything people are into that they want to hide, is material for blackmail. Not using it in this way is also grounds for getting closer to an NPC.
My PCs have used this in both ways, repeatedly.
That was all of my point, really.

Quote

One example that I can think of was the night in Tsamra when Vrisa 'propositioned' Chirine; he accepted, Phil nodded, and we got on with the game session. We did not make a big or graphic deal about it; it was two consenting adults being adults, and it was felt by the group to be more sweet and romantic then salacious. (My daughters, who are kind enough to read my book and offer comments, said the same thing some thirty years later - 'poignant', was the word used.)

Yeah, that's usually about as close as we get to the actual stuff between the input and the output*, too.

*Input and output are the words for "girlfriend" and "boyfriend" in the Cyberpunk 2020 setting's slang.
Quote
As Gronan writes in his reply, we just didn't game that way; we assumed that we were all more-or-less responsible adults, and we tended to behave that way when gaming. Which never stopped us from doing little victory dances when we rolled really well in a miniatures game, or whooping and hollering when things were going well; swooning and doing period exclamations of anguish - "BOGE MOI!" when my Russian T-44s would lose their crummy transmissions, or "GOTT IN HIMMEL!" when the Grant came out of the desert dust at my poor little Pz. I, for example - were also part of the game play.

Sounds totally normal for our sessions, too.
(I keep wondering how you pronounced "Boge moi", though, although usually I simply don't care about the pronunciation. So that's not a question, just saying).

Quote
My issue with the 'age-appropriate' game was not based on content, it was based on the negative reaction from the young players; they weren't thrilled at the propaganda, and wanted to know what it all had to do with the game. I try to keep the players interested and engaged; one of them actually fell asleep during the game...

I'd like to think that my book will amuse and amaze people, and give them an introduction to the Tekumel we knew with Phil. It was a fascinating place, full of mystery and adventure... :)

I totally understand the players' reaction.

And I sincerely hope the book will have the result you're hoping for!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 05, 2015, 12:43:40 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;859093
I keep wondering how you pronounced "Boge moi"...
With a bad French accent I assume.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 06, 2015, 02:04:21 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;859093
And it's a great story! Gotta respect someone who would risk injusry for books:).
(People have fought, killed and died for stupider reasons).

And now, why did Gordon Dickson decide to write about individual war heroes, as opposed to people that are experts in logistics and leading others?
As a follow-up question, was he an RPG player?


Well, my point is, they're usually part of both.
Your PCs often need people that aren't afraid to break a law or five, given the right enticement. What are the odds none of those would be into naughtier stuff? What are the odds you wouldn't at least witness this if you develop a close working relationship with them?
Conversely, anything people are into that they want to hide, is material for blackmail. Not using it in this way is also grounds for getting closer to an NPC.
My PCs have used this in both ways, repeatedly.
That was all of my point, really.


Yeah, that's usually about as close as we get to the actual stuff between the input and the output*, too.

*Input and output are the words for "girlfriend" and "boyfriend" in the Cyberpunk 2020 setting's slang.

Sounds totally normal for our sessions, too.
(I keep wondering how you pronounced "Boge moi", though, although usually I simply don't care about the pronunciation. So that's not a question, just saying).


I totally understand the players' reaction.

And I sincerely hope the book will have the result you're hoping for!


Thanks for your replies! Let me go in order, if I could...

Well, I looked at it as this is what friends will do for friends. Still do, really, which is how I got the five daughters.

Somebody once asked Gordy about your point, and he said that it was because John W. Campbell - the big magazine editor at the time - wasn;t going to buy stories about logistics and leadership. The market wanted war heroes, so that's where he got started. Later on, he was able to move away from the shoot'emup genre, and explore some broader issues. Actual dialog:

Fan: "Gordy, why did you write that terrible story?"
Gordy: "Because Campbell paid me $750 for it, and the check cleared the bank."

Excellent point, and one that I agree with - PCs are going to be on the edge of their society, almost by definition.

Agree with this, too.

I pronounce it with a Leningrad (now back to St. Petersberg, of course) accent as that was what all my teachers spoke it with.

I'll pass it along; they were worried about it, being at my table and worrying about being rude. I didn't fault them for it, either.

We'll see what people think. I'm happily steaming away on the thing, and I am pleased with what's coming along... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 06, 2015, 02:07:07 AM
Quote from: Bren;859098
With a bad French accent I assume.


Nyet. :)

I do get my French accent from 'Allo 'Allo, however... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 06, 2015, 02:18:42 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;859162
Fan: "Gordy, why did you write that terrible story?"
Gordy: "Because Campbell paid me $750 for it, and the check cleared the bank."
That's what my wife and I refer to as "they needed a new roof on their garage."

As fans we sometimes forget that our idols also need to make a monthly mortgage payment, put groceries on the table, buy a new car every now and then, put their kids through college, and yes, every 20 years or so they need to put a new roof on the garage.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;859163
Nyet. :)

I do get my French accent from 'Allo 'Allo, however... :)
In order.

Moi can't be right all the time.

That's one Brit show I've never watched.

And personally I'd use a Steve Martin, Exsuuuuse mee! accent.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 06, 2015, 02:29:27 AM
Quote from: Bren;859165
That's what my wife and I refer to as "they needed a new roof on their garage."

As fans we sometimes forget that our idols also need to make a monthly mortgage payment, put groceries on the table, buy a new car every now and then, put their kids through college, and yes, every 20 years or so they need to put a new roof on the garage.


In order.

Moi can't be right all the time.

That's one Brit show I've never watched.

And personally I'd use a Steve Martin, Exsuuuuse mee! accent.


Oh, very true. Alec Guinness has been quoted as saying that he really hated being in "Star Wars", but that "It paid for the Rolls, dear boy..." :)

:)

Oh, don't look! Once you do, you'll want to start running RPGs set in the Nouvion alternate universe. And you can even do it in miniature, too, as all too many companies make the characters, the buildings, and even Lt. Gruber's "little tank"...

We did that a lot too, usually the GM referee... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 06, 2015, 05:41:45 AM
Hello,

Would you please tell us what you learned about the planning and running of adventures from your time at the Professor's table?

Also if you could talk a bit about how the Professor kept his game orginized or not? I've read that the Professor kept track of NPCs on index cards, do you have an example of one by chance?

Thanks,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 06, 2015, 02:53:26 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;859181
Hello,

Would you please tell us what you learned about the planning and running of adventures from your time at the Professor's table?

Also if you could talk a bit about how the Professor kept his game orginized or not? I've read that the Professor kept track of NPCs on index cards, do you have an example of one by chance?

Thanks,

H :0)


Lessions learned:

1. Don't be boring. If the players want detail, give to them, but only if they ask.

2. Know the world-setting. They will ask questions that you will need to answer.

3. Pacing - this from Dave Arneson, as well. Slow games are dull games, and you lose their interest. if the player(s) are falling asleep at the table, you are doing something wrong.

4. The 'bad guys' are usually just as motivated and skillful as the players. Play them that way. Yes, it will be more work on your part, but you will have a better game and a better campaign.

5. Think. The players are smart and clever, and they will run rings around you if you don't.

6. Plot. Take a moment to work out what the 'NPCs' might do in certain circumstances. This will save you a lot of work during the game, and make  for a better game.

7. Character. Make your NPCs people in their own right, with personalities to suit - and then write them down, so you have them for later!

8. Map. Even if it's a quick sketch map, have some sort of diagram handy; if you can keep it in your head, fine, but have one. It'll save you a lot of trouble in the game. (Phil did dozens of these, over the years.)

9. If miniatures are used, then have them ready before the game. Expect trouble.

10. Create and stay with your idea of how your world works, and be consistent. Take notes as needed to stay that way; you'll be happier in future adventures.

That's a start...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 06, 2015, 03:01:27 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;859181
Hello,

Would you please tell us what you learned about the planning and running of adventures from your time at the Professor's table?

Also if you could talk a bit about how the Professor kept his game orginized or not? I've read that the Professor kept track of NPCs on index cards, do you have an example of one by chance?

Thanks,

H :0)


Phil kept his campaign very organized - he used Tony Bath's book on how to run a campaign. He did lots and lots of little maps and notes, which I always made copies of so we had them for the archives. Read the Bath book for the details; it's still in print.

Phil did everyone on 3x5 index cards. We updated our cards regularly over the years, and Phil would update the NPCs. The cards were kept in 'regional' boxes, and all the dividers were for locations; as people moved around, so did their cards so Phil knew instantly knew who was who in any particular location. Very easy to run and maintain, and very handy.

I made a copy of all 1,800 cards in 1987, and I also have a copy of the 1992 computerized version. They provide a fascinating look into the campaign. I also have a copy of Dave Arneson's 'sub-routine' for the meta-game, for merchant captains and their ships - it provides for cargo, as well.

This material has been specifically forbidden to be published in any way, by order of the Tekumel Foundation. You'll have to ask them. Sorry.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 06, 2015, 04:16:34 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;859214
Phil kept his campaign very organized - he used Tony Bath's book on how to run a campaign. He did lots and lots of little maps and notes, which I always made copies of so we had them for the archives. Read the Bath book for the details; it's still in print.

Phil did everyone on 3x5 index cards. We updated our cards regularly over the years, and Phil would update the NPCs. The cards were kept in 'regional' boxes, and all the dividers were for locations; as people moved around, so did their cards so Phil knew instantly knew who was who in any particular location. Very easy to run and maintain, and very handy.

I made a copy of all 1,800 cards in 1987, and I also have a copy of the 1992 computerized version. They provide a fascinating look into the campaign. I also have a copy of Dave Arneson's 'sub-routine' for the meta-game, for merchant captains and their ships - it provides for cargo, as well.

This material has been specifically forbidden to be published in any way, by order of the Tekumel Foundation. You'll have to ask them. Sorry.


The Tekumel Foundation...I hope they have an exigency plan for the just in case. It would be a shame for the Professor's hard work to be for naught. I'm sure he would have wanted people to enjoy his work just as you and the General did.

Thank you,

H :0)

PS I really wish they would move a bit quicker. I'm growing old as I wait...Hope the OAL don't find out my idenity. I wouldn't want to be forbidden to buy any Tekumel stuff out there...or worse, take the high road!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on October 06, 2015, 08:03:54 PM
It is funny how things change from a scribbled notes to "Treasure" over time as others show interest.
"TREASURE" to be guarded even.

Sad actually. Like baseball cards.
A lot of the old "valuable ones" can barely be given away now.
If you hide it away until nobody knows or cares any more, it goes from Treasure to Trash without being enjoyed in between.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 06, 2015, 09:35:58 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;859214
I also have a copy of Dave Arneson's 'sub-routine' for the meta-game, for merchant captains and their ships - it provides for cargo, as well.

This material has been specifically forbidden to be published in any way, by order of the Tekumel Foundation. You'll have to ask them. Sorry.
How sad that the Foundation is busily making information not available. A subroutine for trade and cargo is something that would be useful to have available. But it's not necessarily something I want to create myself.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 08, 2015, 02:21:18 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;859221
The Tekumel Foundation...I hope they have an exigency plan for the just in case. It would be a shame for the Professor's hard work to be for naught. I'm sure he would have wanted people to enjoy his work just as you and the General did.

Thank you,

H :0)

PS I really wish they would move a bit quicker. I'm growing old as I wait...Hope the OAL don't find out my idenity. I wouldn't want to be forbidden to buy any Tekumel stuff out there...or worse, take the high road!!!


Yep. I tried, and it nearly killed me. Let's move on, and have hope for the future; over the past thirty-odd years, I've seen this kind of thing come and go. Patience... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 08, 2015, 02:23:36 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;859235
It is funny how things change from a scribbled notes to "Treasure" over time as others show interest.
"TREASURE" to be guarded even.

Sad actually. Like baseball cards.
A lot of the old "valuable ones" can barely be given away now.
If you hide it away until nobody knows or cares any more, it goes from Treasure to Trash without being enjoyed in between.
=


Yep. My dad used to have a proverb for me: "Son, money is like manure; it has to be spread around for it to do any good."

Sigh.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 08, 2015, 02:44:19 AM
Quote from: Bren;859241
How sad that the Foundation is busily making information not available. A subroutine for trade and cargo is something that would be useful to have available. But it's not necessarily something I want to create myself.


And you don't have to, either. This may go back to a conversation I had with Phil in the middle 1980s, when he was asking me why Gronan and I were wasting our time playing with trains. He wanted to know what we saw in it; after you put the track down on the floor, and ran the train around the circle a few times, what was left? I told him about what we call 'operations', where we simulated the operations of a real railroad on our miniature version. I told him that it was a lot like what we did when we played with our little lead soldiers - we were simulating warfare with them just as we were simulating the transport business with our models. Phil was astonished - he had no idea, the last time he'd run a toy train was back in the Lionel days.

One of the most popular operating simulation systems - the set of rules, if you will - is called the 'card order' or 'waybill' system. Here's a link to the book that I first read about it in (I hope!); you can also do a Google search to get lots of references to it:

https://books.google.com/books?id=orbWT5ZnLOcC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=model+railroad+card+order+system&source=bl&ots=Xiu4G2B9Ou&sig=slvngfJx_0XVte7D4L26ZsEsLiU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFkQ6AEwCTgKahUKEwjUrMPml7LIAhXEax4KHXEaBQU#v=onepage&q=model%20railroad%20card%20order%20system&f=false (https://books.google.com/books?id=orbWT5ZnLOcC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=model+railroad+card+order+system&source=bl&ots=Xiu4G2B9Ou&sig=slvngfJx_0XVte7D4L26ZsEsLiU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFkQ6AEwCTgKahUKEwjUrMPml7LIAhXEax4KHXEaBQU#v=onepage&q=model%20railroad%20card%20order%20system&f=false)

The basic premise of the system is that every freight car on the railroad is represented by a card; every possible cargo that the industries on the railroad ships via rail is also represented by a card. At the beginning of the simulation session - the game, if you will - the cargo cards are either at the industries, waiting to be picked up, or on the cars already loaded from the previous session. (You can see where this is going, I'm sure!) The train is sent out, with loads and empties, and drops off and picks up the various cargos. (There's lots more on this in the book, of course.) I used to use paper clips and such in my early days, but there is now some very good computer software that does all of this.

What Dave did was substitute ships and their captains for the freight cars, and create all the various cargos that one would find all along the coasts of the Five Empires. A ship would arrive in Jakalla from Bey Sy, unload the cargo it was delivering, and then the ship would be free to load another cargo; the ships were all given with what they could carry, and so it was very easy to match everything up. The cargoes also indicated how long the voyage might take, so the time element was also factored in to the system. So, players in Jakalla can go down to the waterfront, and be told by the GM that there are ships going to where ever, and with whatever cargo aboard.

Adventures ensue.

It's brilliant. The system pretty much runs itself once you get it going, and it runs alongside Phil's larger meta-game that uses Tony Bath's book. It would work in any setting, and really provide a lot of stuff for players to get involved with.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 08, 2015, 02:53:46 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;859181

Also if you could talk a bit about how the Professor kept his game orginized or not? I've read that the Professor kept track of NPCs on index cards, do you have an example of one by chance?

Thanks,

H :0)


Let me see if I can't give you some sort of useful answer...

Phil used 3 x 5 index cards, in the stock five colors that you can get in packs. The color code was:

White: Hnalla, Hru'u, and their cohorts;
Blue: Thumis, Ksarul, and their cohorts;
Green: Avanthe, Dlamelish, and their cohorts;
Red: Karakan, Vimuhla, and their cohorts
Yellow: Belkhanu, Sarku, and their cohorts.

Non-Twenty deities were approximated.

On the obverse of the card, the stats were listed in a column on the left, under the name and clan of the person; skills and spells were listed on the right. The reverse of the card had all the possessions and such, normally on the left; any family or relations were on the right.

It's a very simple and easy to use system; if one lives in Jakalla, and then gets sent to Bey Sy, one's card moves from the Jakalla section to the Bey Sy section, making it very east for the GM to find people as needed in game sessions. As per Tony Bath's book, once a month dice are rolled or cards cut, and the table consulted to see who's moving around - usually, people don't get transferred or moved unless they're being promoted or something, and the tables in the book account for all that. It's a very easy system to use, and a lot of fun - read Tony's book to see what I mean... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 08, 2015, 06:48:58 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;859261
Let me see if I can't give you some sort of useful answer...

Phil used 3 x 5 index cards, in the stock five colors that you can get in packs. The color code was:

White: Hnalla, Hru'u, and their cohorts;
Blue: Thumis, Ksarul, and their cohorts;
Green: Avanthe, Dlamelish, and their cohorts;
Red: Karakan, Vimuhla, and their cohorts
Yellow: Belkhanu, Sarku, and their cohorts.

Non-Twenty deities were approximated.

On the obverse of the card, the stats were listed in a column on the left, under the name and clan of the person; skills and spells were listed on the right. The reverse of the card had all the possessions and such, normally on the left; any family or relations were on the right.

It's a very simple and easy to use system; if one lives in Jakalla, and then gets sent to Bey Sy, one's card moves from the Jakalla section to the Bey Sy section, making it very east for the GM to find people as needed in game sessions. As per Tony Bath's book, once a month dice are rolled or cards cut, and the table consulted to see who's moving around - usually, people don't get transferred or moved unless they're being promoted or something, and the tables in the book account for all that. It's a very easy system to use, and a lot of fun - read Tony's book to see what I mean... :)


Excellent!!! Thank you. As far as Tony Bath goes, you mean Ancient Wargamming?

Thanks,

H :0)

PS More questions to come...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 08, 2015, 09:13:45 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;859260
And you don't have to, either. This may go back to a conversation I had with Phil in the middle 1980s, when he was asking me why Gronan and I were wasting our time playing with trains. He wanted to know what we saw in it; after you put the track down on the floor, and ran the train around the circle a few times, what was left? I told him about what we call 'operations', where we simulated the operations of a real railroad on our miniature version. I told him that it was a lot like what we did when we played with our little lead soldiers - we were simulating warfare with them just as we were simulating the transport business with our models. Phil was astonished - he had no idea, the last time he'd run a toy train was back in the Lionel days.

One of the most popular operating simulation systems - the set of rules, if you will - is called the 'card order' or 'waybill' system. Here's a link to the book that I first read about it in (I hope!); you can also do a Google search to get lots of references to it:

https://books.google.com/books?id=orbWT5ZnLOcC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=model+railroad+card+order+system&source=bl&ots=Xiu4G2B9Ou&sig=slvngfJx_0XVte7D4L26ZsEsLiU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFkQ6AEwCTgKahUKEwjUrMPml7LIAhXEax4KHXEaBQU#v=onepage&q=model%20railroad%20card%20order%20system&f=false (https://books.google.com/books?id=orbWT5ZnLOcC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=model+railroad+card+order+system&source=bl&ots=Xiu4G2B9Ou&sig=slvngfJx_0XVte7D4L26ZsEsLiU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFkQ6AEwCTgKahUKEwjUrMPml7LIAhXEax4KHXEaBQU#v=onepage&q=model%20railroad%20card%20order%20system&f=false)

The basic premise of the system is that every freight car on the railroad is represented by a card; every possible cargo that the industries on the railroad ships via rail is also represented by a card. At the beginning of the simulation session - the game, if you will - the cargo cards are either at the industries, waiting to be picked up, or on the cars already loaded from the previous session. (You can see where this is going, I'm sure!) The train is sent out, with loads and empties, and drops off and picks up the various cargos. (There's lots more on this in the book, of course.) I used to use paper clips and such in my early days, but there is now some very good computer software that does all of this.

What Dave did was substitute ships and their captains for the freight cars, and create all the various cargos that one would find all along the coasts of the Five Empires. A ship would arrive in Jakalla from Bey Sy, unload the cargo it was delivering, and then the ship would be free to load another cargo; the ships were all given with what they could carry, and so it was very easy to match everything up. The cargoes also indicated how long the voyage might take, so the time element was also factored in to the system. So, players in Jakalla can go down to the waterfront, and be told by the GM that there are ships going to where ever, and with whatever cargo aboard.

Adventures ensue.

It's brilliant. The system pretty much runs itself once you get it going, and it runs alongside Phil's larger meta-game that uses Tony Bath's book. It would work in any setting, and really provide a lot of stuff for players to get involved with.


I remember that conversation!

And using the car card and waybill system is brilliant.  Add in Tony Bath's random tables, or, when PCs are present, the OD&D random monster checks at sea, and the adventures, they write themselves.

Where there is sea commerce and rival nations, you WILL have privateers, pirates, smugglers, the Coast Patrol, customs agents honest and dis-, ...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 08, 2015, 09:16:34 AM
Actually, "the adventures, they write themselves" applies to a lot of stuff with a bit of thought.  Like the many questions on clans.  Clans are, at their root, an extended family.  Simply think "Is this a sensible thing for an extended family to do?" and proceed from there.  Humans have many odd customs and mores, but on the other hand, at the core we're all more alike than not.  We treat the "in group" different from the "out group."  The major difference in many societies is mostly who is "in" and who is "out".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 08, 2015, 01:23:43 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;859235
It is funny how things change from a scribbled notes to "Treasure" over time as others show interest.
"TREASURE" to be guarded even.

Sad actually. Like baseball cards.
A lot of the old "valuable ones" can barely be given away now.
If you hide it away until nobody knows or cares any more, it goes from Treasure to Trash without being enjoyed in between.
=
Best summary of how this works that I've seen in a while.

Quote from: Bren;859241
How sad that the Foundation is busily making information not available. A subroutine for trade and cargo is something that would be useful to have available. But it's not necessarily something I want to create myself.
They're about preserving something they see as a legacy.
They're just forgetting that preserving without growing is dooming.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;859260
What Dave did was substitute ships and their captains for the freight cars, and create all the various cargos that one would find all along the coasts of the Five Empires. A ship would arrive in Jakalla from Bey Sy, unload the cargo it was delivering, and then the ship would be free to load another cargo; the ships were all given with what they could carry, and so it was very easy to match everything up. The cargoes also indicated how long the voyage might take, so the time element was also factored in to the system. So, players in Jakalla can go down to the waterfront, and be told by the GM that there are ships going to where ever, and with whatever cargo aboard.

Adventures ensue.

It's brilliant. The system pretty much runs itself once you get it going, and it runs alongside Phil's larger meta-game that uses Tony Bath's book. It would work in any setting, and really provide a lot of stuff for players to get involved with.
I'm likely to order Tony Bath's book in the end. At least they've got reasonable shipping rates!
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859280
Actually, "the adventures, they write themselves" applies to a lot of stuff with a bit of thought.  Like the many questions on clans.  Clans are, at their root, an extended family.  Simply think "Is this a sensible thing for an extended family to do?" and proceed from there.  Humans have many odd customs and mores, but on the other hand, at the core we're all more alike than not.  We treat the "in group" different from the "out group."  The major difference in many societies is mostly who is "in" and who is "out".
Oh yes, that much is true.
Also, applying a Relationship Map is the fastest way to get the same effect. Then you just pre-generate some NPCs and whatever the PCs do, you see who would oppose them and with what resources.
In effect, it's like Arneson/Bath's system, except for Refereeing games, IME.

Also, Chirine, I apologise if you've answered that and I didn't see it...but was Gordon Dickson an RPG player and/or Referee?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 08, 2015, 01:51:57 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859279
I remember that conversation!

And using the car card and waybill system is brilliant.  Add in Tony Bath's random tables, or, when PCs are present, the OD&D random monster checks at sea, and the adventures, they write themselves.

Where there is sea commerce and rival nations, you WILL have privateers, pirates, smugglers, the Coast Patrol, customs agents honest and dis-, ...

Thank you. In the short time I've been here I've learned so much. You make it seem so simple!!! I guess it is!!! Thanks for sharing. I'm glad I decided to start pestering you guys!!!

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 08, 2015, 02:23:07 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;859268
Excellent!!! Thank you. As far as Tony Bath goes, you mean Ancient Wargamming?

Thanks,

H :0)

PS More questions to come...


I'm sorry - should have been more clear:

http://www.amazon.com/Setting-Wargames-Campaign-TONY-BATH/dp/B0016KHKJC (http://www.amazon.com/Setting-Wargames-Campaign-TONY-BATH/dp/B0016KHKJC)

I think it's also available as a PDF, but you'd have to look...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 08, 2015, 02:26:47 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;859294

Also, Chirine, I apologise if you've answered that and I didn't see it...but was Gordon Dickson an RPG player and/or Referee?


Thank you for the reminder - no, he was not. He did have an interest in wargaming; he and Gronan worked on a set of SF miniatures rules, but his publisher had a fit over the idea and wanted heaps of money for a license. Which was too bad; Gronan's rules were great, and provided us with hours of fun.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 08, 2015, 02:29:19 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;859296
Thank you. In the short time I've been here I've learned so much. You make it seem so simple!!! I guess it is!!! Thanks for sharing. I'm glad I decided to start pestering you guys!!!

H :0)


You're welcome! And, yes, running a campaign can be very simple. Back in the day, we had no idea how to do it, so we used all the tricks and tips that we'd learned from running wargame campaigns. I think it'd be even easier these days, what with personal computers - back in my youth, the IBM 360 / 370 series was what we were working on...

Ask away; it's what we're here for...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 09, 2015, 10:54:24 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;859260
One of the most popular operating simulation systems - the set of rules, if you will - is called the 'card order' or 'waybill' system. Here's a link to the book that I first read about it in (I hope!); you can also do a Google search to get lots of references to it:

https://books.google.com/books?id=orbWT5ZnLOcC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=model+railroad+card+order+system&source=bl&ots=Xiu4G2B9Ou&sig=slvngfJx_0XVte7D4L26ZsEsLiU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFkQ6AEwCTgKahUKEwjUrMPml7LIAhXEax4KHXEaBQU#v=onepage&q=model%20railroad%20card%20order%20system&f=false (https://books.google.com/books?id=orbWT5ZnLOcC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=model+railroad+card+order+system&source=bl&ots=Xiu4G2B9Ou&sig=slvngfJx_0XVte7D4L26ZsEsLiU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFkQ6AEwCTgKahUKEwjUrMPml7LIAhXEax4KHXEaBQU#v=onepage&q=model%20railroad%20card%20order%20system&f=false)

The basic premise of the system is that every freight car on the railroad is represented by a card; every possible cargo that the industries on the railroad ships via rail is also represented by a card. At the beginning of the simulation session - the game, if you will - the cargo cards are either at the industries, waiting to be picked up, or on the cars already loaded from the previous session. (You can see where this is going, I'm sure!) The train is sent out, with loads and empties, and drops off and picks up the various cargos. (There's lots more on this in the book, of course.) I used to use paper clips and such in my early days, but there is now some very good computer software that does all of this.

What Dave did was substitute ships and their captains for the freight cars, and create all the various cargos that one would find all along the coasts of the Five Empires. A ship would arrive in Jakalla from Bey Sy, unload the cargo it was delivering, and then the ship would be free to load another cargo; the ships were all given with what they could carry, and so it was very easy to match everything up. The cargoes also indicated how long the voyage might take, so the time element was also factored in to the system. So, players in Jakalla can go down to the waterfront, and be told by the GM that there are ships going to where ever, and with whatever cargo aboard.

Adventures ensue.

It's brilliant. The system pretty much runs itself once you get it going, and it runs alongside Phil's larger meta-game that uses Tony Bath's book. It would work in any setting, and really provide a lot of stuff for players to get involved with.
Chirine, thanks a lot. I looked at the link and then spent some time flipping through presentations from SIG and Mr. Trains to get a better understanding of Card and Waybill operations. This may be the most useful RPG idea I've seen this year.

I have some questions and thoughts, but I wonder if this should be a separate thread since it is (a) only tangentially related to Tekumel and (b) of general utility for modeling cargo transport e.g. ships an dcargo for Fantasy, Sci-Fi, or real world.

1. Am I the only person interested in working any of this stuff out?

2. Does a separate thread seem like it would be of interest?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 09, 2015, 11:03:00 AM
Quote from: Bren;859385
Chirine, thanks a lot. I looked at the link and then spent some time flipping through presentations from SIG and Mr. Trains to get a better understanding of Card and Waybill operations. This may be the most useful RPG idea I've seen this year.

I have some questions and thoughts, but I wonder if this should be a separate thread since it is (a) only tangentially related to Tekumel and (b) of general utility for modeling cargo transport e.g. ships an dcargo for Fantasy, Sci-Fi, or real world.

1. Am I the only person interested in working any of this stuff out?

2. Does a separate thread seem like it would be of interest?


It sounds good to me. I don't mind. I'm good with it right here.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 09, 2015, 11:21:02 AM
In the five empires the political climate is quite strained. In the Professor's game, who got along better, or not with who? Was there any potential for allies?

Does this effect cross-the-border clan relations?


How do the different countries view each other? What views, stereotypes, and prejudices do they have?

Thank you,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on October 09, 2015, 02:18:06 PM
Quote from: Bren;859385
I have some questions and thoughts, but I wonder if this should be a separate thread since it is (a) only tangentially related to Tekumel and (b) of general utility for modeling cargo transport e.g. ships an dcargo for Fantasy, Sci-Fi, or real world.

1. Am I the only person interested in working any of this stuff out?

2. Does a separate thread seem like it would be of interest?


I think that a new thread would be better as it would be far off the topic of this one. Also easier to find later for reference.

Have you reviewed this method?
https://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8279

I used it for my Pulp Tramp Steamer gaming.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 10, 2015, 07:57:49 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;859403
I think that a new thread would be better as it would be far off the topic of this one. Also easier to find later for reference.

Have you reviewed this method?
https://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8279

I used it for my Pulp Tramp Steamer gaming.
=
The card draw KEF method? No, I'd never seen that. It's not quite what I am looking for, but I can see how it could appeal if a greater level of abstraction is desired and if the cargo is just a background element rather than something the players are really supposed to engage with. It seems like it would better fit in a game using wealth levels than one that actually counts credits (or silver pieces).

Two things that I see as necessary to a system are (1) knowing what the actual cargo is at a level of detail* greater than just animal, vegetable, mineral, or passenger and (2) cargo value affected by location. The latter allows for stable merchant runs where a ship takes a cargo to a location with a higher value. So you get profitable trade routes like the Atlantic triangle run in the 17th and 18th centuries. Trade in both Traveller and WEG D6 Star Wars (Tramp Freighters) included values fluctuating based on point of purchase and point of sale.


* The Civilization (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization_%28board_game%29) board game (not the Sid Meyers PC game) had 18 products with 9 different base values, which seems like about the right number of products to make decisions and trade routes interesting.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 10, 2015, 02:29:29 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;859390
In the five empires the political climate is quite strained. In the Professor's game, who got along better, or not with who? Was there any potential for allies?

Does this effect cross-the-border clan relations?

How do the different countries view each other? What views, stereotypes, and prejudices do they have?

Thank you,

H :0)


Ah, right then. This is a little complicated, but I'll do my best - I may have to break this into several replies.

First off, look at the maps of our continent. You'll notice that each of the Five Empires is separated from each other by 'buffer zones', usually some sort of terrain that makes campaigning difficult. Phil designed in these 'frontier zones' in order to make sure that the Empires could not conduct really effective wars against each other - the histories are full of failed campaigns like the 2020 War. Instead, they provide areas where Adventures and Derring-do can happen.

Of the Five Empires, Tsolyanu has been allied with Livyanu, mostly on the theory that both don't like the Mu'uglavyani. Tsolyanu and Salarvya don't particularly like each other, mostly over the disputed Kerunan area. Yan Kor is still in the process of becoming a nation-state, and is usually more of a collection of mutually-warring little clan territories. Neither Mu'uglavya or Tsolyanu particularly like Yan Kor, as the Baron is pretty 'expansionist'. Salarvya is also more of a geographical expression then a nation-state, as the four great families are all convinced that they really need to be states in their own right. The fifth great feudal familiy is the one tied to the Temple of Shiringgayi, and they tend to be sort of neutral in their politics. There are also the small states, who tend to be allied with whomever happens to have an army sitting on their mutual border.

And, of course, the Ssu and Hlyss don't like any of us, and we don't like them.

Complicating all of this are the internal divisions and factions inside each of the larger polities. In Tsolyanu, we have the four big political parties, the Ito and Vriddi rebels, the temple factions, and the clan interests. Alliances form and dissolve all the time, and cross 'national', temple, alignment, clan, and 'political' lines. The four 'ladies' temples' in Tsolyanu are usually allied with each other, and they in turn are normally allied with their sisters in Livyanu, Salarvya, and Mu'uglavya.

So, it always pays to inquire who is allied to who at any given moment in any given locality. It shifts and changes all the time, depending on the local politics. Which is the idea, of course; how else do the Grey Mouser and his tall friend - those pesky player-characters! - find adventure and rewards? :)

Next reply! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 10, 2015, 02:34:22 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;859390
In the five empires the political climate is quite strained. In the Professor's game, who got along better, or not with who? Was there any potential for allies?

Does this effect cross-the-border clan relations?


How do the different countries view each other? What views, stereotypes, and prejudices do they have?

Thank you,

H :0)


Second reply!

Yes, is does. In the Chakas, the Tsolyani assume  that the Ito Clan is allied with the Mu'uglavyani; the Red-hats, on their side, assume that the Itos are allied with the Tsolyani, and so nobody trusts them as far as they can throw them. The Itos, of course, play both sides off against each other, and indulge themselves in their own internal Northern Ito vs. Southern Ito feud. Every cross-border clan does this, and it makes life really entertaining on the frontiers.

Please see also "The Steel Bonnets", by G. M. Frasier, for a similar situation and how it plays out.

Next! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 10, 2015, 02:51:15 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;859390
In the five empires the political climate is quite strained. In the Professor's game, who got along better, or not with who? Was there any potential for allies?

Does this effect cross-the-border clan relations?


How do the different countries view each other? What views, stereotypes, and prejudices do they have?

Thank you,

H :0)


Third reply! :)

Speaking from a Chakan's standpoint... :)

The Tsolyani are seen as arrogant and pompous, and very full of themselves.
The Mu'uglavyani are seen as very paperwork-bound, rigid, and very full of themselves.
The Livyani are seen as being very secretive, very arrogant, and very full of themselves.
The Salarvyani, are seen as crude, bumptious, loud, and very full of themselves.
The Yan Koryani, are seen as loud, rude, crude, bumptious, and very full of themselves.
The small states are seen as dependent on the Five Empires, and of no account; they resent this, as they are very full of themselves.
The Ssu and the Hlyss don't like any of the above, and are not liked in return.

Everybody is polite to everybody else - with the exception of the Ssu and Hlyss, of course - but there isn't a lot of love lost between the Five Empires generally. Individually, of course, there are fast friendships and relationships all over the place, but on a national basis there isn't all that much in common between the Five.

Attitudes and stereotypes can best be summed up as "Would you want your sister to marry one?"

See also The Sourcebook, S&G I for more on all of this.

I'm trying to keep this short; I could go on forever about this, and bore you to tears... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 10, 2015, 07:59:03 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;859508
Third reply! :)

Speaking from a Chakan's standpoint... :)

The Tsolyani are seen as arrogant and pompous, and very full of themselves.
The Mu'uglavyani are seen as very paperwork-bound, rigid, and very full of themselves.
The Livyani are seen as being very secretive, very arrogant, and very full of themselves.
The Salarvyani, are seen as crude, bumptious, loud, and very full of themselves.
The Yan Koryani, are seen as loud, rude, crude, bumptious, and very full of themselves.
The small states are seen as dependent on the Five Empires, and of no account; they resent this, as they are very full of themselves.
The Ssu and the Hlyss don't like any of the above, and are not liked in return.

Everybody is polite to everybody else - with the exception of the Ssu and Hlyss, of course - but there isn't a lot of love lost between the Five Empires generally. Individually, of course, there are fast friendships and relationships all over the place, but on a national basis there isn't all that much in common between the Five.

Attitudes and stereotypes can best be summed up as "Would you want your sister to marry one?"

See also The Sourcebook, S&G I for more on all of this.

I'm trying to keep this short; I could go on forever about this, and bore you to tears... :)


Chirine,

Thank you. I guess I will have to read the S&G sourcebook cover to cover. I've read bits and pieces that I wanted to research. The EPT intro is good, but not enough detail. I've gotten to the point where, I close my eyes and I see the geography of the Empires...But I still need to work on spelling!!! ;0)

Thanks,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 10, 2015, 09:37:54 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;859531
Chirine,

Thank you. I guess I will have to read the S&G sourcebook cover to cover. I've read bits and pieces that I wanted to research. The EPT intro is good, but not enough detail. I've gotten to the point where, I close my eyes and I see the geography of the Empires...But I still need to work on spelling!!! ;0)

Thanks,

H :0)


Understood. Yes, the book will give you a lot better information that I could; it's Phil's best statement on his world.

If I had one niggle about it, it's organized by subject, not by location. And there's no index, although I think one was done by Christa Donnelly and published on the Tekumel Yahoo group. Tom Thompson also did one in the early 1980s, but this is long out of print.

And don't worry about the spelling! Think in terms of their colors: Tsolyanu - blue; Mu'uglavya - red; Salarvya - black; Yan Kor - green; Livyanu - yellow, by default, more then anything else. Pijena is a nice lavender, Saa Alliqui is orange, the Shen states copper, and Mihallu white and gold.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 11, 2015, 12:11:53 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;859506
Second reply!

Yes, is does. In the Chakas, the Tsolyani assume  that the Ito Clan is allied with the Mu'uglavyani; the Red-hats, on their side, assume that the Itos are allied with the Tsolyani, and so nobody trusts them as far as they can throw them. The Itos, of course, play both sides off against each other, and indulge themselves in their own internal Northern Ito vs. Southern Ito feud. Every cross-border clan does this, and it makes life really entertaining on the frontiers.

Please see also "The Steel Bonnets", by G. M. Frasier, for a similar situation and how it plays out.



Funny, until I got to the last line I was thinking "Sounds like Gasocony during the Hundred Years' War..."  :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 11, 2015, 01:27:58 AM
Also, for trade and cargo, both Original Traveller and Adventurer Conqueror King also have useable systems to generate trade routes.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 11, 2015, 02:28:32 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859550
Funny, until I got to the last line I was thinking "Sounds like Gasocony during the Hundred Years' War..."  :D


Well, exactly; I don't know of a good book on the Gascons, though. Neither side trusted them, as near as I can tell, and probably for very good reasons.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 11, 2015, 11:46:08 AM
Well, yeah.  I'll have to look up Steel Bonnets.  I think Frasier may be less known as a historical writer than he deserves.  Ever read Quartered Safe Out Here?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 11, 2015, 12:30:07 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859585
Well, yeah.  I'll have to look up Steel Bonnets.  I think Frasier may be less known as a historical writer than he deserves.  Ever read Quartered Safe Out Here?


Agreed. Yes, I have; it's on the shelf right next to the sort-of-maybe 'sequels', the 'McAuslan' series, where Our Hero (A Feckless Young Subaltern) endures having The Dirtiest Soldier In The World under his command. It's a very thinly fictionalized account (in three books) of Frasier's time in the Gordon Highlanders as a young officer, and is - in my opinion - a gold mine of useful adventures for the GM.

Wonderfully funny, full of amazing characters, and loads of possible plots for the PCs to follow up on... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 11, 2015, 03:40:43 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;859508
Third reply! :)

Speaking from a Chakan's standpoint... :)

The Tsolyani are seen as arrogant and pompous, and very full of themselves.
The Mu'uglavyani are seen as very paperwork-bound, rigid, and very full of themselves.
The Livyani are seen as being very secretive, very arrogant, and very full of themselves.
The Salarvyani, are seen as crude, bumptious, loud, and very full of themselves.
The Yan Koryani, are seen as loud, rude, crude, bumptious, and very full of themselves.
The small states are seen as dependent on the Five Empires, and of no account; they resent this, as they are very full of themselves.
The Ssu and the Hlyss don't like any of the above, and are not liked in return.

Everybody is polite to everybody else - with the exception of the Ssu and Hlyss, of course - but there isn't a lot of love lost between the Five Empires generally. Individually, of course, there are fast friendships and relationships all over the place, but on a national basis there isn't all that much in common between the Five.

Attitudes and stereotypes can best be summed up as "Would you want your sister to marry one?"

See also The Sourcebook, S&G I for more on all of this.

I'm trying to keep this short; I could go on forever about this, and bore you to tears... :)

Also, the Chakans are very full of themselves, and that's the best you can say about them!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;859297
I'm sorry - should have been more clear:

http://www.amazon.com/Setting-Wargames-Campaign-TONY-BATH/dp/B0016KHKJC (http://www.amazon.com/Setting-Wargames-Campaign-TONY-BATH/dp/B0016KHKJC)

I think it's also available as a PDF, but you'd have to look...

I found a second edition for like 15 pounds.
This is third edition. Does the difference matter?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;859298
Thank you for the reminder - no, he was not. He did have an interest in wargaming; he and Gronan worked on a set of SF miniatures rules, but his publisher had a fit over the idea and wanted heaps of money for a license. Which was too bad; Gronan's rules were great, and provided us with hours of fun.

Too bad.
Your stories are like a reminder that IP has a bad side as well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 11, 2015, 05:17:07 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;859603
Also, the Chakans are very full of themselves, and that's the best you can say about them!


I found a second edition for like 15 pounds.
This is third edition. Does the difference matter?


Too bad.
Your stories are like a reminder that IP has a bad side as well.


a. Yes, we are. Being stuck between two large, active, and expansionist empires with big armies has bred into us a sturdy self-reliance and willingness to stand up for what we believe in - which is mostly ourselves, our families, and our clans. The notion of loyalty to a central authority, either Avantha or Ssa'atis, comes a long way down the line. Just like on The Borders... :)

Priest: "Are there any Christians here?"
Borderer: "Nah, we all be Armstrongs and Maxwells."

b. Shouldn't be; I think the covers changed, but not the text.

c. Agreed. The problems seem to come in with the 'middlemen' who have high overheads to pay for. Licenses are a very high-profit, very low-expense source of revenue for a publisher / producer; back in the day, it was a standard clause in all publishing contracts that the author gave up their rights to their IP to their publisher. I caught this in Phil's contract with DAW for "Man of Gold", and Phil renegotiated the contract to keep his "motion picture, television, and dramatic productions" rights.

As a 'fer instance', Heinlein had no say over the production of the 1976 Avalon-Hill "Starship Troopers" game; he hated the artwork, and when an unsuspecting fan handed him a copy for an autograph at the 1976 World Con he threw the game across the room. He had no recourse; his contract with his publisher was the standard one of the time, and while he got a very small percentage of the cover price of the game, the publisher got most of the money, both from the license fee and the royalties.

The publishers justified this by pointing out that the authors were getting larger 'advances' (1) up front for their works, and that the publishers were assuming all of the costs and risks involved in bringing the work to market.  Thus, any money they could make off the licenses were their reward for taking these risks. Authors who didn't like the terms could go elsewhere...

Of course, back then there was no 'elsewhere', and an author stood a good chance of being 'blacklisted' and not getting any contracts if they had a reputation for being 'difficult'. Back when I was in fandom, the absolute power that editors and publishers had over authors was astonishing. (It was like Hollywood in the 1920s and 1930s, in a lot of ways.)

These days, of course, the Internet and desktop publishing have completely changed the scene. There is now very little money in the 'traditional' publishing industry, and the emphasis is on mass-market sure-fire hits. The genres are now very small niches in the industry, and are more or less going to the web as that's where they can thrive.

Modern IP holders are, in effect, investment brokers. The big money is in license fees, not publishing.

(1) 'advances' are short for 'advance on royalties'. Quite a few authors were delighted to get a big check for their work from their publisher (less their agents' commission fees. of course) but were then surprised to get more or less nothing afterwards. Any royalties from sales were deducted from the sum of the advance, so it could be years before any more money came in for a book.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 11, 2015, 05:52:53 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;859616
a. Yes, we are. Being stuck between two large, active, and expansionist empires with big armies has bred into us a sturdy self-reliance and willingness to stand up for what we believe in - which is mostly ourselves, our families, and our clans. The notion of loyalty to a central authority, either Avantha or Ssa'atis, comes a long way down the line. Just like on The Borders... :)

Priest: "Are there any Christians here?"
Borderer: "Nah, we all be Armstrongs and Maxwells."
Hmm, what's the right answer for "are there any Vimuhlanians here?"

Quote
b. Shouldn't be; I think the covers changed, but not the text.
That's actually great:)! Well, except it seems on closer inspection that it's Tony Bath's other book...
http://www.wargaming.co/recreation/details/tbcampaigns.htm

Nothing is perfect, though, but the bright side is, the same site carries a few titles from some Phil Barker;).

Quote
c. Agreed. The problems seem to come in with the 'middlemen' who have high overheads to pay for. Licenses are a very high-profit, very low-expense source of revenue for a publisher / producer; back in the day, it was a standard clause in all publishing contracts that the author gave up their rights to their IP to their publisher. I caught this in Phil's contract with DAW for "Man of Gold", and Phil renegotiated the contract to keep his "motion picture, television, and dramatic productions" rights.

As a 'fer instance', Heinlein had no say over the production of the 1976 Avalon-Hill "Starship Troopers" game; he hated the artwork, and when an unsuspecting fan handed him a copy for an autograph at the 1976 World Con he threw the game across the room. He had no recourse; his contract with his publisher was the standard one of the time, and while he got a very small percentage of the cover price of the game, the publisher got most of the money, both from the license fee and the royalties.

The publishers justified this by pointing out that the authors were getting larger 'advances' (1) up front for their works, and that the publishers were assuming all of the costs and risks involved in bringing the work to market.  Thus, any money they could make off the licenses were their reward for taking these risks. Authors who didn't like the terms could go elsewhere...

Of course, back then there was no 'elsewhere', and an author stood a good chance of being 'blacklisted' and not getting any contracts if they had a reputation for being 'difficult'. Back when I was in fandom, the absolute power that editors and publishers had over authors was astonishing. (It was like Hollywood in the 1920s and 1930s, in a lot of ways.)

These days, of course, the Internet and desktop publishing have completely changed the scene. There is now very little money in the 'traditional' publishing industry, and the emphasis is on mass-market sure-fire hits. The genres are now very small niches in the industry, and are more or less going to the web as that's where they can thrive.

Modern IP holders are, in effect, investment brokers. The big money is in license fees, not publishing.

(1) 'advances' are short for 'advance on royalties'. Quite a few authors were delighted to get a big check for their work from their publisher (less their agents' commission fees. of course) but were then surprised to get more or less nothing afterwards. Any royalties from sales were deducted from the sum of the advance, so it could be years before any more money came in for a book.
Chirine, have I told you how much I like your way of analysing such matters:D?
Definitely sneak a few of those in your book, at least as endnotes!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 11, 2015, 08:27:37 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;859588
Agreed. Yes, I have; it's on the shelf right next to the sort-of-maybe 'sequels', the 'McAuslan' series, where Our Hero (A Feckless Young Subaltern) endures having The Dirtiest Soldier In The World under his command. It's a very thinly fictionalized account (in three books) of Frasier's time in the Gordon Highlanders as a young officer, and is - in my opinion - a gold mine of useful adventures for the GM.

Wonderfully funny, full of amazing characters, and loads of possible plots for the PCs to follow up on... :)


I've read The Complete McAuslan compendium.  It's wonderful, and a bit of a mood lightener after Quartered Safe.  Both are excellent.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 11, 2015, 08:30:33 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;859619

That's actually great:)! Well, except it seems on closer inspection that it's Tony Bath's other book...
http://www.wargaming.co/recreation/details/tbcampaigns.htm


Read the description carefully.... that's a COMPENDIUM that includes "Setting Up a Wargames Campaign" as part of it.


(Aquarium, Compendium, Laudanum, Totorum... 100Xp to the first person besides Chirine to identify that without Google)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 11, 2015, 08:36:15 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;859616

As a 'fer instance', Heinlein had no say over the production of the 1976 Avalon-Hill "Starship Troopers" game; he hated the artwork, and when an unsuspecting fan handed him a copy for an autograph at the 1976 World Con he threw the game across the room.


Quite a distance, too.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;859616

(1) 'advances' are short for 'advance on royalties'. Quite a few authors were delighted to get a big check for their work from their publisher (less their agents' commission fees. of course) but were then surprised to get more or less nothing afterwards. Any royalties from sales were deducted from the sum of the advance, so it could be years before any more money came in for a book.


Yep.  In 1982 or 1983 Gordy Dickson said he FINALLY reached the point where royalties paid the bills without needing to live off advances..

Also, the market has gotten even worse if possible.  In the mid 80s when Pat Wrede got her start, a typical advance for a first fantasy book was $2500.  About 5 years ago Jim Frankel said it's now $2000.  And the "Three books in three years, quit your day job" contract simply doesn't exist any more.

IN addition, Frankel and every other editor and author there said they don't even want to hear from somebody who's not already working on a third book.  As JF said, "Anybody's got one decent book inside them, but nowadays we don't make any money off a new author at all until the third or fourth book."  And they want those books BEFORE the first one is ever published.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 11, 2015, 08:50:52 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;859619
Hmm, what's the right answer for "are there any Vimuhlanians here?"


That's actually great:)! Well, except it seems on closer inspection that it's Tony Bath's other book...
http://www.wargaming.co/recreation/details/tbcampaigns.htm

Nothing is perfect, though, but the bright side is, the same site carries a few titles from some Phil Barker;).


Chirine, have I told you how much I like your way of analysing such matters:D?
Definitely sneak a few of those in your book, at least as endnotes!


"Nah, we's all Itos here." :)

I had a look at the link you gave; it looks like this is an omnibus edition, and it does seem to have the "Setting Up A Wargames Campaign" in it. And the Phil is Phil's cousin, of course... :)

Thank you for the kind words! Most of the time, people don't like me doing this kind of commentary because I tend to follow the money and see where it leads. My problem is that I've been around for so long, and usually in the thick of things...

Hmmm. I don't know how much 'analysis' will get into the book; there are points where we do stop and have a think about what it is we're doing, but it always seems to advance the plot. We'll see, I guess. Got another 2,500 words down last night, too... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 11, 2015, 11:51:43 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859636
I've read The Complete McAuslan compendium.  It's wonderful, and a bit of a mood lightener after Quartered Safe.  Both are excellent.


Agreed. The Burma campaign was not noted for humor value.

As for Dand's adventures, well, they're all true... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 11, 2015, 11:56:45 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859639
Quite a distance, too.



Yep.  In 1982 or 1983 Gordy Dickson said he FINALLY reached the point where royalties paid the bills without needing to live off advances..

Also, the market has gotten even worse if possible.  In the mid 80s when Pat Wrede got her start, a typical advance for a first fantasy book was $2500.  About 5 years ago Jim Frankel said it's now $2000.  And the "Three books in three years, quit your day job" contract simply doesn't exist any more.

IN addition, Frankel and every other editor and author there said they don't even want to hear from somebody who's not already working on a third book.  As JF said, "Anybody's got one decent book inside them, but nowadays we don't make any money off a new author at all until the third or fourth book."  And they want those books BEFORE the first one is ever published.


Yeah, it was a pretty tense moment in the ballroom; I think the con chair managed to smooth things over, I think the game got all reassembled by Bob Asprin and the Dorsai Irregulars, but I could be mis-remembering that; things were pretty frantic for a bit, there...

Yeah, I hear you about the market. It's all about the marketing and license potential, ala "Game of Thrones"...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 12, 2015, 09:35:44 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859638
Read the description carefully.... that's a COMPENDIUM that includes "Setting Up a Wargames Campaign" as part of it.


(Aquarium, Compendium, Laudanum, Totorum... 100Xp to the first person besides Chirine to identify that without Google)

Wait, what? A compendium in 220 pages? I thought it's some kind of mistake...
I guess being used to the page count of RPGs didn't help me on this one:D!

Either way, thank you, Gronan! I just ordered it, being in the EU it has bearable shipping. Will wait for the post's office notice.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;859642
"Nah, we's all Itos here." :)

I had a look at the link you gave; it looks like this is an omnibus edition, and it does seem to have the "Setting Up A Wargames Campaign" in it. And the Phil is Phil's cousin, of course... :)

Hmm, Phil's cousin...might be good or bad, actually:).
Would you recommend any of his works for someone who's more into RPGs, but whose campaigns tend to become political and about political and military manoeuvring after a while?

Quote
Thank you for the kind words! Most of the time, people don't like me doing this kind of commentary because I tend to follow the money and see where it leads. My problem is that I've been around for so long, and usually in the thick of things...

I'm trained as a jurist (not lawyer, I could as well apply for anything including law in Bulgaria). Despite that, I work in the media, mostly because of...personal opinions.
Let's just say that "follow the money" is something I've been taught to respect, okay:D?

Quote
Hmmm. I don't know how much 'analysis' will get into the book; there are points where we do stop and have a think about what it is we're doing, but it always seems to advance the plot. We'll see, I guess. Got another 2,500 words down last night, too... :)

Great!
And that's 2500 words closer to us getting to read it...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;859660
Agreed. The Burma campaign was not noted for humor value.

As for Dand's adventures, well, they're all true... :)

AsenRG is taking notes on reading material.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859639
Quite a distance, too.

Yep.  In 1982 or 1983 Gordy Dickson said he FINALLY reached the point where royalties paid the bills without needing to live off advances..

Also, the market has gotten even worse if possible.  In the mid 80s when Pat Wrede got her start, a typical advance for a first fantasy book was $2500.  About 5 years ago Jim Frankel said it's now $2000.  And the "Three books in three years, quit your day job" contract simply doesn't exist any more.

IN addition, Frankel and every other editor and author there said they don't even want to hear from somebody who's not already working on a third book.  As JF said, "Anybody's got one decent book inside them, but nowadays we don't make any money off a new author at all until the third or fourth book."  And they want those books BEFORE the first one is ever published.

There go my dreams to become a rich author. Right next to my other dreams;).
It's a good thing, in retrospect, that I suspected something like that, and never actually started working on it:p.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;859662
Yeah, it was a pretty tense moment in the ballroom; I think the con chair managed to smooth things over, I think the game got all reassembled by Bob Asprin and the Dorsai Irregulars, but I could be mis-remembering that; things were pretty frantic for a bit, there...

Yeah, I hear you about the market. It's all about the marketing and license potential, ala "Game of Thrones"...

Huh. I'm beginning to appreciate the Bulgarian IP law more and more (like you being unable to lose the rights over what you've written even if you wanted to). Too bad that it applies over a very limited market, so all the pressures are economic ones, and even the best known authors have a day job, often as translators and/or journalists;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on October 12, 2015, 09:46:55 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859638
Read the description carefully.... that's a COMPENDIUM that includes "Setting Up a Wargames Campaign" as part of it.


(Aquarium, Compendium, Laudanum, Totorum... 100Xp to the first person besides Chirine to identify that without Google)


Four Roman forts surrounding a rebel village in Gaul.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 12, 2015, 12:33:03 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;859681
Four Roman forts surrounding a rebel village in Gaul.


"Ah, you are educated!" :D

Well done that man.  100XP.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 12, 2015, 12:42:31 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;859680
Wait, what? A compendium in 220 pages? I thought it's some kind of mistake...
I guess being used to the page count of RPGs didn't help me on this one:D!


And there, O Best Beloveds, is an important lesson!

The original "Setting Up" is 79 pages.  79 PAGES!!!  And it's pretty darn complete.

The historical, 1:20 section of CHAINMAIL is something like 19 pages (cutting out the intro, the pictures, etc.; I'm talking "what you need to play a historical 1:20 game.)

The original West End Games STAR WARS RPG was 148 pages.  The d20 version had something like a dozen books from 150 to 350 pages, and the West End game is a much, much better game!

Partly this is the fault of a "consumerist mentality," to buy something that is a turnkey installation rather than "make up some shit you think will be fun and here's some guidelines," and partly diarrhea of the mouth (pen).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on October 12, 2015, 12:42:35 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859691
"Ah, you are educated!" :D

Well done that man.  100XP.


Really, I don't understand how they let kids out of school without having read them.  It's almost as great a failure as the mathematics debacle of the last two decades.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859694
And there, O Best Beloveds, is an important lesson!


Rudyard Kipling's The Elephant's Child
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 12, 2015, 01:00:39 PM
Since we are on the subject of books...Can you Gentlemen suggest some reading material? A kind of "Appendix N" for The Professor and Tekumel...It doesn't have to be just books, whatever you Gents feel would be helpful(no need to mention things already cited, or any of the published Tekumel stuff). Just to give us an idea about flavoring our Tekumel...

Thanks,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on October 12, 2015, 01:21:51 PM
Heir to the Empire by Raymond E Feist and Janny Wurts.  :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 12, 2015, 01:34:37 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;859702
Heir to the Empire by Raymond E Feist and Janny Wurts.  :D


Haha...I may just go there some day!!! ;0)

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 12, 2015, 01:36:08 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;859701
Since we are on the subject of books...Can you Gentlemen suggest some reading material? A kind of "Appendix N" for The Professor and Tekumel...It doesn't have to be just books, whatever you Gents feel would be helpful(no need to mention things already cited, or any of the published Tekumel stuff). Just to give us an idea about flavoring our Tekumel...

Thanks,

H :0)


Well, honestly, I think that's been covered pretty well.

Oh, wait.  FIRST, decide what "flavor" of Tekumel you want to run; Arabian Nights, Sword and Planet, Armies of the Empire, Chariots of the Gods, Struggle for the Throne, or other.  THEN select your reading and viewing material from what's already been listed.

And lots of pomp and gaud and trinkets.  Phil loved bright colors, gold leaf, and doohickeys.

And much like George Lucas, THINK BIG.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 12, 2015, 01:48:56 PM
Also, a thought for those who want to run a game on Tekumel:

Phil had been creating Tekumel for some thirty years BEFORE I introduced him to OD&D at the U of MN in 1973.

NONE of us will ever, ever have that fully developed a world.  DON'T TRY.

Pick a general genre like I mentioned above, and think of the Tekumelyani aspects as seasoning on the meal.  Almost like take your standard D&D world, scratch out "troll" and write in "Ahoggya" in red crayon...

Simply set it in the framework of five large, ancient, bureaucratic, and rather decadent empires with a huge network of extended families going over, under, around, and through these boundaries, and go nuts.

It'll be fine.

Hell, you could even use PENDRAGON.  Just like a major theme of Le Morte d'Arthur is family loyalty vs loyalty to the Round Table, you could play a game of clan loyalty vs loyalty to your political home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H2UIcnICRs
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 12, 2015, 01:57:11 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859706
Well, honestly, I think that's been covered pretty well.

Oh, wait.  FIRST, decide what "flavor" of Tekumel you want to run; Arabian Nights, Sword and Planet, Armies of the Empire, Chariots of the Gods, Struggle for the Throne, or other.  THEN select your reading and viewing material from what's already been listed.

And lots of pomp and gaud and trinkets.  Phil loved bright colors, gold leaf, and doohickeys.

And much like George Lucas, THINK BIG.


Thanks. Yea, I've had a lot running through my head...time traveling Conquistadores, or a lost Tsolyani Legion in Meso-America, PCs finding themselves back in Humanspace, Demons galore, Rockets, abandoned spaceships crash landed and part of the underworld...It's just a matter of deciding what first.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 12, 2015, 02:27:29 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859694
And there, O Best Beloveds, is an important lesson!

The original "Setting Up" is 79 pages.  79 PAGES!!!  And it's pretty darn complete.

The historical, 1:20 section of CHAINMAIL is something like 19 pages (cutting out the intro, the pictures, etc.; I'm talking "what you need to play a historical 1:20 game.)

The original West End Games STAR WARS RPG was 148 pages.  The d20 version had something like a dozen books from 150 to 350 pages, and the West End game is a much, much better game!

Partly this is the fault of a "consumerist mentality," to buy something that is a turnkey installation rather than "make up some shit you think will be fun and here's some guidelines," and partly diarrhea of the mouth (pen).
Yeah, but I tend to forget that. It's my fault, really, but I was in the - apparently mistaken - belief that wargame books were supposedly in the hundreds of pages, although usually in the low hundreds.
Note taken.

Funny, that, when you consider that most of my favourite games are "short and to the point". Not all, for certain*, but I like games where I can take the core mechanic and run wild with it. Be it Dragon Warriors, Traveller, or A Dirty World - which is almost "the Pendragon of the noir genre" if you can live with the abstraction - most of them have rules that are well under 100 pages. Sometimes well under 20 pages.
Of course, the setting can easily take another 1000 pages spread across the corebook and a couple of supplements. When it's not resulting in an integrated system, I approach this as the "pick and choose" option. At other times, I use the whole of it - but then those pages have actually served a goal.

*I'm running LotW, because people asked me to, therefore it's a given that I can live with long rulesets if I see a point in the complexity. In fact, I'm of the opinion that the Weapons of the Gods Companion is almost an attempt to introduce the "high-level game with people's location being tracked" back to RPGs. Except it's easily in the hundreds of pages.
But because I don't see the point in the complexity, I refuse to run Pathfinder, though I've been asked to. And the more I read D&D 5e, the more I think that the same fate would befall this one as well.

Well, that's something on which I agree wholeheartedly with the indie movement. They tend to dislike the supplement mill about as much as you do.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;859711
Also, a thought for those who want to run a game on Tekumel:

Phil had been creating Tekumel for some thirty years BEFORE I introduced him to OD&D at the U of MN in 1973.

NONE of us will ever, ever have that fully developed a world.  DON'T TRY.

Pick a general genre like I mentioned above, and think of the Tekumelyani aspects as seasoning on the meal.  Almost like take your standard D&D world, scratch out "troll" and write in "Ahoggya" in red crayon...

Simply set it in the framework of five large, ancient, bureaucratic, and rather decadent empires with a huge network of extended families going over, under, around, and through these boundaries, and go nuts.

It'll be fine.

Hell, you could even use PENDRAGON.  Just like a major theme of Le Morte d'Arthur is family loyalty vs loyalty to the Round Table, you could play a game of clan loyalty vs loyalty to your political home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H2UIcnICRs
Funny, I've been thinking how similar it is to some themes in Pendragon as well... well, some themes in Pendragon and some themes of Artesia, but Pendragon is likely to be much better choice. Also much closer to the amount of mechanics that the average group wants to see, not to mention in less need of houseruling.
Although I'm not using either, so maybe I'm not the guy to talk about it. I'm still running it in the system mash-up that Gronan has inspired (and it counts as an active game, despite being on hiatus due to scheduling).
We'll see what Tony Bath could add to this when or if his book arrives.

But I'll support what Gronan said. I picked Livyanu for the starting point because I wanted a less developed part of Tekumel, where I could insert my own views and impose the tone I want. I also know that the tone I want is a mix of urban fantasy, medieval spy thriller and dynastic novel. Thus, Jakalla only features episodically, but I've got exactly what I want.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 12, 2015, 02:29:43 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;859702
Heir to the Empire by Raymond E Feist and Janny Wurts.  :D


Oh, why not go for broke? The entire Riftwar series by Raymond Feist, and all three of the Empire Trilogy; 'Daughter of', 'Servant of', and 'Mistress of.' There are differing opinions as to the use of Prof. Barker's material in the books, however.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 12, 2015, 02:31:25 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;859701
Since we are on the subject of books...Can you Gentlemen suggest some reading material? A kind of "Appendix N" for The Professor and Tekumel...It doesn't have to be just books, whatever you Gents feel would be helpful(no need to mention things already cited, or any of the published Tekumel stuff). Just to give us an idea about flavoring our Tekumel...

Thanks,

H :0)


I'll see what I can do. More later... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: ligedog on October 13, 2015, 12:00:33 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;859718
Oh, why not go for broke? The entire Riftwar series by Raymond Feist, and all three of the Empire Trilogy; 'Daughter of', 'Servant of', and 'Mistress of.' There are differing opinions as to the use of Prof. Barker's material in the books, however.


To be fair they ripped off James Clavell almost as much as they did Prof. Barker.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 13, 2015, 02:23:16 PM
Quote from: ligedog;859850
To be fair they ripped off James Clavell almost as much as they did Prof. Barker.


Quite probably; wasn't it Shakespeare who said there are only 26 basic plots?

As an aside, I talked to Mr. Feist about this in 1988, and he told me that he'd talked to TSR about the use of the EPT material with one of the Blume brothers and been given TSR's blessing. He was not pleased to find out that they didn't ask Phil about it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 14, 2015, 01:59:38 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;859701
Since we are on the subject of books...Can you Gentlemen suggest some reading material? A kind of "Appendix N" for The Professor and Tekumel...It doesn't have to be just books, whatever you Gents feel would be helpful(no need to mention things already cited, or any of the published Tekumel stuff). Just to give us an idea about flavoring our Tekumel...

Thanks,

H :0)


Meaning no disrespect to anyone, I personally think that some things are kind of the basic foundation of what those guys were thinking of, back then, and deserve repeating.

Hammer horror movies; Sir Fang's primer for being a vampire. Fritz Lieber, Jr., with his pair of rogues - not the class, the prototypes. H. P. Lovecraft, for eldritch horror. R. E. Howard, for sword-swinging adventure. A. E. Merritt, for "The Moon Pool" and "The Ship of Ishtar". E. R. Burroughs, for Barsoom. Ray Harryhausen, for making them all come to life. Douglas Fairbanks, both Sr. and Jr., and their colleague Mr. Flynn. Sinbad the Sailor, both in the movies and in the original. The Arabian Nights - get a good translation, for choice. Omar and his quatrains.

And my very personal favorite 'player character' movie: The very rare and very hard to find "The Adventures of Hadji Baba". Your brain will quietly explode.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on October 14, 2015, 08:02:51 AM
This is rare background information for "modern" players to set their imaginations in.
This is why I keep thinking that anime may be more likely sources for "current" players.
Wish I knew what were the anime equivalents.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: ligedog on October 14, 2015, 10:09:06 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;859863
Quite probably; wasn't it Shakespeare who said there are only 26 basic plots?

As an aside, I talked to Mr. Feist about this in 1988, and he told me that he'd talked to TSR about the use of the EPT material with one of the Blume brothers and been given TSR's blessing. He was not pleased to find out that they didn't ask Phil about it.


Interesting story abut asking permission I had never heard that before and it doesn't sound surprising.  It's true there aren't that many plots but I'll just say you probably won't ever see Shogun and Servant of the Empire in the same place at the same time. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 14, 2015, 12:14:10 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;859941
This is rare background information for "modern" players to set their imaginations in.
This is why I keep thinking that anime may be more likely sources for "current" players.
Wish I knew what were the anime equivalents.
=


If it's any help, Uncle Hugo's SF Bookstore here in the Twin Cities does do mail order on their used books; most all of my list is usually available, and for cheap.

Anime ideas would be welcome; I don't watch them, myself, so I have no suggestions in that direction, sorry.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 14, 2015, 12:14:47 PM
Quote from: ligedog;859949
Interesting story abut asking permission I had never heard that before and it doesn't sound surprising.  It's true there aren't that many plots but I'll just say you probably won't ever see Shogun and Servant of the Empire in the same place at the same time. :)


Yep! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on October 15, 2015, 07:50:30 AM
How much did you know about the flora and fauna before encountering it?

Did you go to the clan or temples to get info of the areas you were going to enter/explore?
If not temples or clans then who has the info and rumors?

Who told you about the smell of cinnamon for example?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 15, 2015, 08:50:28 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;860092
How much did you know about the flora and fauna before encountering it?

Did you go to the clan or temples to get info of the areas you were going to enter/explore?
If not temples or clans then who has the info and rumors?

Who told you about the smell of cinnamon for example?
=


Musty cinnamon...I would like to think engrained since birth!!!!

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 15, 2015, 11:00:13 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;859863

As an aside, I talked to Mr. Feist about this in 1988, and he told me that he'd talked to TSR about the use of the EPT material with one of the Blume brothers and been given TSR's blessing. He was not pleased to find out that they didn't ask Phil about it.


I never knew that.  Interesting.

And to quote Mr. Spock, "no, Doctor, I meant interesting.  Fascinating is a term I reserve for the unexpected."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 15, 2015, 02:39:40 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;860092
How much did you know about the flora and fauna before encountering it?

Did you go to the clan or temples to get info of the areas you were going to enter/explore?
If not temples or clans then who has the info and rumors?

Who told you about the smell of cinnamon for example?
=


Only what was in EPT. It was 'learn-by-doing', i. e., the hard way.

Yes. One never had enough local information, and the food was usually pretty good.

The local village headman or elders. Ask around in the marketplace, in a more town or city setting. Heck, we even asked the local herders, if we saw them. The area we really worried about where the ones where there was nobody around; those were the really dangerous places.

Phil, just before the Ssu came around the corner. We'd heard rumors from older players, but we found out for sure by running into them. In game, I'm sure you'd hear the same rumors from older people; it's pretty common in the folklore.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 15, 2015, 02:40:37 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;860101
Musty cinnamon...I would like to think engrained since birth!!!!

H :0)


I'd agree, out in the frontier areas where the Ssu are more common. In the central Empire, not so much... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 15, 2015, 02:46:02 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;860114
I never knew that.  Interesting.

And to quote Mr. Spock, "no, Doctor, I meant interesting.  Fascinating is a term I reserve for the unexpected."


Yep. And I talked to Don Wolheim about the novels, too; he had some very (and I do mean very) interesting things to say about his relationship as Phil's publisher with Phil as his author.

[What I don't think that people fully grasp is that everything seems to come to me eventually. Even before the Internet was invented, information was flowing into here in a constant stream. The world is like a plumbing system; it all flows downhill. I am downhill. :) ]
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 16, 2015, 01:56:08 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;860092
Did you go to the clan or temples to get info of the areas you were going to enter/explore?
If not temples or clans then who has the info and rumors?
=


I've been thinking about this all day; is this something you want me to expand on? I mean, we used to have a sort of 'drill' that we followed when we got to someplace; we'd start by tipping the gate guards, and then making sure we met and talked to all the local worthies in order. Along the way, we'd do a little shopping, if we had the option, and that was always a useful source of information. I can do more on this; I think I may not have given you much to work with...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 16, 2015, 02:23:46 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;860258
I've been thinking about this all day; is this something you want me to expand on? I mean, we used to have a sort of 'drill' that we followed when we got to someplace; we'd start by tipping the gate guards, and then making sure we met and talked to all the local worthies in order. Along the way, we'd do a little shopping, if we had the option, and that was always a useful source of information. I can do more on this; I think I may not have given you much to work with...

A drill or SOP might be helpful.

Also a sense of how much that SOP was abstracted, taken for granted, or glossed over vs played out block by block and word for word each and every time.

I ask about that because one of the differences I find with Phil's GM style was the pacing of 1 week real = 1 week game, because that is different than anything I've played ever.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 16, 2015, 03:08:03 AM
Quote from: Bren;860260
A drill or SOP might be helpful.

Also a sense of how much that SOP was abstracted, taken for granted, or glossed over vs played out block by block and word for word each and every time.

I ask about that because one of the differences I find with Phil's GM style was the pacing of 1 week real = 1 week game, because that is different than anything I've played ever.


Oh, right; gotcha. Let me get something written up for you, then.

Yes, Phil's 'game time'/'real time' ration was probably the most different thing about long-term campaigning with him that comes to mind when I think about it. I think it was 'descended' from his running wargame campaigns, where this kind of thing was pretty common at that time. The campaigns at the local game store (the infamous Little Tin Soldier Shoppe) tended to be run like this, as games were normally fought out on Saturdays, and campaign turns were normally due at the end of the week so as to allow for phone calls to get the players together.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on October 16, 2015, 08:10:40 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;860258
I've been thinking about this all day; is this something you want me to expand on? I mean, we used to have a sort of 'drill' that we followed when we got to someplace;


Anything you can offer is useful.
While I'm sure people have their standard practices, which may be different for each, are there Tekumel specific things that you did, or missed?
Tipping the bartender for rumors seems out of place for example.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 16, 2015, 10:25:01 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;860285
Anything you can offer is useful.
While I'm sure people have their standard practices, which may be different for each, are there Tekumel specific things that you did, or missed?
Tipping the bartender for rumors seems out of place for example.
=


Well, where are you, what are you trying to accomplish, how close are you to home, and what is your clan's status?  Because the answer will change.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 17, 2015, 03:11:32 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;860285
Anything you can offer is useful.
While I'm sure people have their standard practices, which may be different for each, are there Tekumel specific things that you did, or missed?
Tipping the bartender for rumors seems out of place for example.
=


Right, then; let me have a run at this...

First off, when we played in Phil's Tekumel we were very, very aware that we were people who part of a larger society. We were not what I think has been called 'murderhobos'; we had our place in the world, and we very carefully studied what our society was like and expected of us. Not doing this had very real and very dire consequences - the nasty little civil conflict in Tu'umnra, or the even nastier slave revolt in Ferenara, for example. Once you've faced your first angry mob, you never ever want to do it again.

So, we made sure to ask people about the local situation. We kept a bucket of coppers (20 copper = 1 silver, 20 silver = 1 gold, or something like that) to hand for tipping anyone who we talked to - not bribery, but as a gift to thank them for their time and information. Social lubrication, as it were.

Let me give some examples of how we 'did the drill', if I may:

On the road: Send a runner with some cash up to the next Sakbe road tower to let the guards know we were coming. By the time we got there, our places for the night had been reserved for us, decent food would be offered, and maybe even some hot water. We'd make sure to invite the guard officer to dinner, along with the local village headman and any elders he deemed worthy of the honor. We'd share some of our nice vintages, and in the course of the evening we'd get to hear all the local gossip, road conditions, and interesting rumors. The latter, as you might guess, led to more adventures.

In the local village: Again, we'd be polite and send a runner ahead. Some cash 'for putting you to such trouble' would be included, and again by the time we'd get there the locals would have gathered all the worthies and clan elders together for an evening of feasting and entertainment. In the course of the fun, we'd politely ask about local sights and sites, and more often then not they'd have an interesting adventure waiting.

This, I think, comes from Phil's real-world travels. May I also suggest a wonderful adventure book, "The Road to Ubar", where a team of modern explorers is looking for a lost city. They happen to be in a village in Arabia, and they ask the local chief over dinner if he knows of any such things. he lights up, and is happy to tell them that his village is right next to such a place - and it is, too, and yes, it's the lost city that they're looking for. "Oh! go out the back door, up the street past the camel pen, turn left, and there you are - the lost city of Ubar..." :)

Larger city: no real need to send a runner ahead, but if you have a clan or temple in the town then it's polite to do so. A little largess for the gate / city guards never hurts, and again by the time you arrive everything is in readiness. The gate guards will be happy to provide 'local guides', who just happen to be their relatives or something, and you get settled in to your guest quarters. We always tried to go shopping in the marketplace; you ask around in the course of the conversations about local matters, and the merchants, market urchins, city guards, and anyone else will be happy to bend your ears off in the hope of a small tip for their tips...

And yes, you are right; there are no 'bartenders' to tip. But there are door porters, temple guards, city watchmen, major-domos, courtesans, merchants, low-level officials, market urchins, soldiers on leave, traveling entertainers and gladiators, clan elders, and other people who have information that may be of use to you and your party.

The way Phil played, we did this a lot; the 'script' varied from place to place and situation to situation, but the main thing was that we made sure to keep the high-status people happy, the medium-status people feel important, and the low-status people in largess.

I think it might need to be said again that we played for over a dozen years, and we got very 'immersed' in our fictional society. Every Thursday night at 7:30 p.m. sharp (Phil took attendance) we were off and into our characters, like actors in a rep company doing another performance. Phil really enjoyed playing all the NPCs, and we had a lot of fun dealing with these people. They were very real to him, and to us; and we tried very hard to respond in kind.

'Asking around' was seen to be 'polite'; spreading a little largess around was seen as 'noble'. And we got into more trouble and had more adventures that way; Phil had loads of plots waiting in the wings for us to play out, but it was up to us to ask the right questions of the right people to find them out. All this time later, I'm still finding fun little adventures that he left us in his works - the Gary Con game, this past March, was one such.

I'm not at all sure how you could run this in a game, though. It almost seems like it's a 'too immersive' form of game play, and certainly not very well suited to quick one-off games or very short campaigns.

Comments? Thoughts? Would it help to pose specific instances, and maybe some stories about some incidents?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 17, 2015, 01:26:22 PM
I think Phil enjoyed playing through the various levels of social interaction at least partially because some of the early players were mostly interested in their own greed, and in going out of their way to flout social convention as much as possible.

To once again quote Bill Hoyt, "Don't play with psychopaths."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 17, 2015, 02:51:01 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;860425
I think Phil enjoyed playing through the various levels of social interaction at least partially because some of the early players were mostly interested in their own greed, and in going out of their way to flout social convention as much as possible.

To once again quote Bill Hoyt, "Don't play with psychopaths."


Oh, yes; very, very much so! See also Fine's "Shared Fantasy" for examples of their play. These were the guys responsible for both the Ferenara and Tu'umnra incidents, which really affected play in Phil's campaign for years. Or Tim Cox, "the priest Dutlor", zapping Princess Ma'in hi Tlakotani with the Eye of Changing Alignment; Phil never really got over that incident, I think. (And the Eye in question was deleted from the EPT manuscript before it went to TSR.) 'Breaking the world / campaign' was a signature feature of some of these guys' game play; they did it at the Fifth Precinct group as well.

I've talked to some of them about this a few years ago, and some of them are still pretty proud of what they did in those early years. And we're still 'the geeks', too... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 17, 2015, 03:15:33 PM
Test Your Alignment:

A small child is making a sand castle on a beach.  Do you

a) help them (Lawful)
b) sit down and watch and applaud (Neutral)
c) knock it down (Chaotic)

Or, as Michael Caine said in one movie playing Batman's butler Alfred, "Some men just want to watch the world burn."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 17, 2015, 03:16:16 PM
Also, here's a question for Chirine:  Are you familiar with the card game "Magic: The Gathering"?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 17, 2015, 03:24:42 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;860441
Also, here's a question for Chirine:  Are you familiar with the card game "Magic: The Gathering"?


Not really. I've seen it; Eldest Daughter's fiance is a big fan and player, to the point where I do wonder where First Grandson came from. I know it's really big at The Source; I've had them cancel several of my Braunsteins in order to have big promotional tournaments for the game.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 17, 2015, 03:34:09 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;860440
Test Your Alignment:

A small child is making a sand castle on a beach.  Do you

a) help them (Lawful)
b) sit down and watch and applaud (Neutral)
c) knock it down (Chaotic)

Or, as Michael Caine said in one movie playing Batman's butler Alfred, "Some men just want to watch the world burn."


No. I: d) Tell them that they are doing it wrong, that they are using the wrong sand, then go on the Internet to denounce them for their crimes against the hobby.

My! Isn't Chirine being a nasty old man, today? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on October 17, 2015, 04:17:24 PM
Nonsense!  The sand was better back then and we didn't have all these fancy plastic forms we had to use broken bottles and rusty tin cans, sticks and our own imagination.  If we wanted crenellations we poked them in with a stick damnit!   And the bullies were worse because they'd kick us in instead of the sand castle and we had to walk ten miles to the beach, uphill both ways in a raging dust storm.  Sometimes I think the bullies just tripped over us and were trying to get back up.  And they'd cry about how sand is course and gets into everything and then the girls would be all over them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on October 17, 2015, 04:20:18 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;860393
Comments? Thoughts? Would it help to pose specific instances, and maybe some stories about some incidents?


Excellent!
I doubt anyone would complain about some specific examples.
However, it would be nice if they were not the same ones as in the book so, it would give even more.  ;)

* As for MtG, the EDH/Commander play style is my preference.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 17, 2015, 04:21:45 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;860444
No. I: d) Tell them that they are doing it wrong, that they are using the wrong sand, then go on the Internet to denounce them for their crimes against the hobby.

My! Isn't Chirine being a nasty old man, today? :)


Need a little more fiber in our diet, do we?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 17, 2015, 04:23:29 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;860443
Not really. I've seen it; Eldest Daughter's fiance is a big fan and player, to the point where I do wonder where First Grandson came from. I know it's really big at The Source; I've had them cancel several of my Braunsteins in order to have big promotional tournaments for the game.


Briefly, it's a card game, and certain valuable cards are scarce and randomly distributed through the "booster packs" you can buy.

In other words, the more money you spend, the better your odds of getting a powerful card.

As a gamer, my instant reaction was "Fuck that shit."

As a marketer, my instant reaction was "Crap, I wish I'd thought of that!":D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 17, 2015, 05:01:31 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;860447
Nonsense!  The sand was better back then and we didn't have all these fancy plastic forms we had to use broken bottles and rusty tin cans, sticks and our own imagination.  If we wanted crenellations we poked them in with a stick damnit!   And the bullies were worse because they'd kick us in instead of the sand castle and we had to walk ten miles to the beach, uphill both ways in a raging dust storm.  Sometimes I think the bullies just tripped over us and were trying to get back up.  And they'd cry about how sand is course and gets into everything and then the girls would be all over them.


Superb! Ever see the Monty Python 'Four Yorkshiremen' sketch?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 17, 2015, 05:02:15 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;860449
Excellent!
I doubt anyone would complain about some specific examples.
However, it would be nice if they were not the same ones as in the book so, it would give even more.  ;)

* As for MtG, the EDH/Commander play style is my preference.
=


Ah! I'll see what I can do... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 17, 2015, 05:04:26 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;860450
Need a little more fiber in our diet, do we?


Nope. I'm just heading out to work back-to-back football games; Gophers today, Vikings tomorrow. Yes, it's a nice chunk of overtime, but I could use some time off...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 17, 2015, 05:08:51 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;860451
Briefly, it's a card game, and certain valuable cards are scarce and randomly distributed through the "booster packs" you can buy.

In other words, the more money you spend, the better your odds of getting a powerful card.

As a gamer, my instant reaction was "Fuck that shit."

As a marketer, my instant reaction was "Crap, I wish I'd thought of that!":D


Oh, right, gotcha. Just like Games Workshop's miniatures rules/figures, or the Wizards of the Coast pre-painted 'collectable' miniatures. Other companies have tried this as well, I believe.

The numbers say that there's a huge surge for initial sales, and after that they slow down dramatically. GW assumes that their core demographic turns completely over every three years, however, which is how they stay in business; there's a new crop of fourteen year olds with their parents' money coming along all the time...

Game store as day care - the new trend in the industry!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 17, 2015, 05:37:27 PM
I'm thinking mostly that it tells me that "Akbar and Jeff's Traveling Tekumel Show" didn't think big enough.

I wish sometimes I'd gone to business school BEFORE the start of Tekumel Games.  I'd have done MANY things differently, first and foremost to raise prices!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on October 17, 2015, 05:57:58 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;860462
I'm thinking mostly that it tells me that "Akbar and Jeff's Traveling Tekumel Show" didn't think big enough.

I wish sometimes I'd gone to business school BEFORE the start of Tekumel Games.  I'd have done MANY things differently, first and foremost to raise prices!


The "Legend of the Five Rings Collectible Card Game" may be a good example of how Tekumel could have been done.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on October 17, 2015, 06:26:51 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;860454
Superb! Ever see the Monty Python 'Four Yorkshiremen' sketch?


Sure, but more than that I saw the four Yorkshiremen before Monty Python imitated them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 17, 2015, 07:14:34 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;860425
I think Phil enjoyed playing through the various levels of social interaction at least partially because some of the early players were mostly interested in their own greed, and in going out of their way to flout social convention as much as possible.

To once again quote Bill Hoyt, "Don't play with psychopaths."
I think such players seem really popular on your side of the Ocean (doesn't matter which ocean, you must pass at least one from here to your place, no matter which direction you go).
I'm proud that I've managed to reform a few of those. I suspect I might have done the local roleplaying community a favour:).

Or, to quote myself, "sure, you can be a psychopath, but even societies that don't have the word have well-established means of dealing with the likes, and the guy coming to kill you is just the last line of defence".

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;860440
Test Your Alignment:

A small child is making a sand castle on a beach.  Do you

a) help them (Lawful)
b) sit down and watch and applaud (Neutral)
c) knock it down (Chaotic)

Or, as Michael Caine said in one movie playing Batman's butler Alfred, "Some men just want to watch the world burn."
Squarely Neutral, Lawful if it's my kid, and might be Chaotic if the kid is building the castle as a way to be obnoxious;).

Quote from: Greentongue;860465
The "Legend of the Five Rings Collectible Card Game" may be a good example of how Tekumel could have been done.
=
I think we have a winner!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 17, 2015, 07:22:34 PM
I don't think doing anything as difficult as inventing collectable card games in 1983 would have been necessary.  Simply understanding more about marketing, production costs, and pricing would have been a huge help.

We used to sell out of miniatures at conventions.  I now realize that does NOT mean we needed to increase production, it means we needed to raise prices.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 17, 2015, 07:55:44 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;860486
I don't think doing anything as difficult as inventing collectable card games in 1983 would have been necessary.  Simply understanding more about marketing, production costs, and pricing would have been a huge help.

We used to sell out of miniatures at conventions.  I now realize that does NOT mean we needed to increase production, it means we needed to raise prices.

To clarify, I don't mean you should have invented CCGs in 1983. I mean that's a very good avenue for getting people into Tekumel today:).

It might also get me to play a CCG again, but that's collateral damage;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 17, 2015, 08:49:32 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;860486
We used to sell out of miniatures at conventions.  I now realize that does NOT mean we needed to increase production, it means we needed to raise prices.
Think bigger. Do both.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 17, 2015, 09:01:23 PM
Quote from: Bren;860523
Think bigger. Do both.


Only effective if time to produce miniatures is not at a premium.  When the same guys are pouring lead, collating modules, and typing catalogs, time is at a premium.

It really was a great example of "work harder not smarter."  Oh, had I but known.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 18, 2015, 02:54:21 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;860486
I don't think doing anything as difficult as inventing collectable card games in 1983 would have been necessary.  Simply understanding more about marketing, production costs, and pricing would have been a huge help.

We used to sell out of miniatures at conventions.  I now realize that does NOT mean we needed to increase production, it means we needed to raise prices.


True, but when I suggested this Arneson reamed me a new asshole. Dave believed in low retail prices, bless him, but he sometimes ignored the actual production costs in order to keep the cover prices down. And he went to Phil, and that was that; I was told to shut up and get on with the Akbar and Jeff Show. I never could get Dave to understand that every copy of a Tekumel product that he sold to Balboa Distributing at their required 65% discount was a net loss to Adventure Games - I think we lost something like $1.20 on each army list book, for example.

Looking back on it, I think it was the triumph of sentiment and revenge over cool, rational thought. AGI was so wrapped up in the campaign to ruin TSR that it often got forgotten that Dave's D&D royalties were what were paying all the bills - it sure wasn't  product sales.

Interestingly, I've heard the Ral Partha side of the story about the old 25mm Tekumel miniatures line. I gather that I, and a couple of other people, were the major source of sales for the line; it just didn't sell at all, after TSR stopped doing anything with EPT.

And now, a short rant:

The Akbar and Jeff show sold out of figures - the very same ones! - at conventions because Akbar and Jeff busted their butts to market, promote, and merchandise the little lead people. You, as I recall, sat at the sales table for something like 12 hours a day, flogging the merchandise, while I stood there in 38 pounds of steel armor running miniatures and RPG games for fourteen hours a day.

Gosh! Weren't those Gen Con and Origins trips fun? Didn't we have a great time? And all that packing and loading? Wasn't that great? Don't we both miss those days? Don't we long for the prestige and glory of being Big Wheels in the game business?

And then we'd come home to the bitching and whining from the people who would not help us, but were more then happy to badmouth us and what we were trying to do for Tekumel.

It got old, after a while.

End of rant. Thank you for your time and patience. I shall now have my sushi dinner.

More tomorrow. I'm off to bed. G'night, everyone! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Atsuku Nare on October 18, 2015, 09:48:59 AM
Let me just start by saying I'm really enjoying this thread!

I do have a couple questions for Chirine:

Did Phil ever a player in anyone's game, or was he exclusively a game master?

Along with all the local adventures you came across as you traveled, did you ever stumble on world-changing plots? Like an insane wizard/AI/god that wanted to move Tekumel back to Humanspace? Or were your adventures more in working within the status quo (which it seems like from your descriptions)?

Lastly, when you run Tekumel, do you do anything different from Phil to "put your own spin on it?"

Thanks!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 18, 2015, 01:52:17 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;860575
True, but when I suggested this Arneson reamed me a new asshole. Dave believed in low retail prices, bless him, but he sometimes ignored the actual production costs in order to keep the cover prices down. And he went to Phil, and that was that; I was told to shut up and get on with the Akbar and Jeff Show. I never could get Dave to understand that every copy of a Tekumel product that he sold to Balboa Distributing at their required 65% discount was a net loss to Adventure Games - I think we lost something like $1.20 on each army list book, for example.

So you mean, he was trying to gain by selling in bulk:D?

Yeah, there is a point where selling physical product is too cheap. But it seems a common mistake;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 18, 2015, 05:57:48 PM
Quote from: Atsuku Nare;860590
Let me just start by saying I'm really enjoying this thread!

I do have a couple questions for Chirine:

Did Phil ever a player in anyone's game, or was he exclusively a game master?

Along with all the local adventures you came across as you traveled, did you ever stumble on world-changing plots? Like an insane wizard/AI/god that wanted to move Tekumel back to Humanspace? Or were your adventures more in working within the status quo (which it seems like from your descriptions)?

Lastly, when you run Tekumel, do you do anything different from Phil to "put your own spin on it?"

Thanks!


Phil played for about a year in my D&D game.  He was a lot of fun.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 18, 2015, 06:47:02 PM
A few words on Akbar and Jeff's Traveling Tekumel Show:

First... Dave Arneson was a dear, sweet man, I miss him greatly, and I would truly describe him as "a gentle soul".  However, he had all the business acumen of a colony of cherrystone clams.  He had cover art and boxes produced for at least a couple of games that never got written.  By the way, boxes are a shockingly expensive proposition; having a thousand full color boxes sitting empty in inventory is a huge drag.

I'd forgotten about the Balboa stuff.

And let me say this:  In my opinion, nobody, and I mean nobody, has done more to promote Tekumel than Chrinie.  Not create, enhance, enrich... I mean promote.  Without his efforts I truly believe Tekumel would have slipped into obscurity in the middle 90s and never been heard from again.  No single person has worked harder to make and keep the gaming world aware of Tekumel.

And yes, we worked our bloody asses off as Akbar and Jeff's Traveling Tekumel Show (AAJTTS).  (By the way, 100XP for the first person besides Chirine who can identify "Akbar and Jeff" without Google.)  It was every bit as thankless as Chirine's description above makes it sound.  The real reward was that we met people at cons who absolutely loved it, and that is what kept us going.  When I finally gave it up I dropped out of gaming as a hobby for 15 years.  They say "Do what you love and you'll never work a day of your life."  They lie.  This is why I've never tried to get involved with anything about model railroading in any commercial sense.

And Chrine is, if anything, understating the flurry that went on around his miniatures demo games.  Very early on, an eager player who just lost a unit said "If I buy more figures can I use them in the battle?"  Chirine, not having just fallen off the Mash-fruit Chlen cart, said "Sure."  At which point our young lad ran to the table to buy more figures.

I sidled over and prison-yard whispered "I'd think some tactics would help, but I'm not telling him that," to which Chirine grinned and replied "Ixnay on the actics-tay when the ustomer-cay has ash-cay."

It reached the point that we were not only selling miniatures, we were selling Exacto knives, tubes of glue, and sheets of cardboard as well.  (All miniatures must be assembled and based.)  Sometimes each team had one guy just gluing figures to bases full time.

This is when I realized Chirine is one of the greatest natural marketers in the world.  He'd be running the miniatures demo all day long, with players/customers running to our dealer table to buy more minis and throw them into the carnage (think of a volcanic subduction zone -- figures just marched into the center and disappeared), and I'd be taking money and handing out miniatures so fast there were scorch marks on them.  Sometimes we'd have a helper or two (Aaron P. and Perfect Mikey), in which case I could stand there with my jaw hanging open watching Chirine work.

So why, ultimately, did it fail?  Well, the single biggest reason is that we're talking the 1981-1985 time period.  1982 was the peak year for D&D, and 1983 saw sales decline sharply, and keep falling.  And "as goes D&D, so goes the market."  We were trying to turn Tekumel into "the new D&D" at exactly the time that D&D stopped being "the new D&D."  Alas, as my dear grandfather used to say, "Hindsight is always 20/20."  By 1985 GAMA meetings were mostly on the subject of "how to turn the market around," and in 1986 I got the contract to write a Star Trek module for FASA that included a board game, to "get RPG players playing wargames."

If I had it all to do over again, as the saying goes, assuming that I knew then what I knew now (including that business degree) I would try to become a great little spare time business instead of trying to turn Tekumel into the world's most popular RPG, and I would have spent a lot less time "doing the same old thing harder than before" and more time figuring what the new thing should be.

Sports writers talk about boxers having "heart."  "The kid's got heart."  Well, AAJTTS had plenty of heart, but in retrospect I see that, sadly, we were pretty much trying to accomplish the impossible.  We weren't alone; the late 80s took a huge toll in the adventure game industry as it slowly sunk in that we weren't seeing a downward hiccup in the market, we were seeing the collapse of a bubble after the Gold Rush.  Things had changed and were not coming back, but nobody realized that at the time.

And people far more trained and experienced then we were have fallen prey to such circumstances... the early 2000s housing bubble being the most recent example.  It happens.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 18, 2015, 06:55:44 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;860575

Gosh! Weren't those Gen Con and Origins trips fun? Didn't we have a great time? And all that packing and loading? Wasn't that great? Don't we both miss those days? Don't we long for the prestige and glory of being Big Wheels in the game business?


Hoo boy.  I remember by the end of the summer convention season (Gen Con, I believe) we were ready to pile the merchandise in a heap and set it on fire rather then load it into the damn van one more time.  And this is when we were young, strong, and healthy.

If you ever want to get a great bargain at a con, have the patience to wait until Sunday afternoon.  At the last DragonCon I went to somebody was selling game supplements that were a couple of years old.  On Thursday they were $5 each.  By Sunday afternoon they were "Buy one get TWO free," which is a fancy way of saying "For the love of GOD please don't make me carry these things out to the truck."  Nothing like eight days of hard work, little sleep, bad food, and stupid questions, and in my case, copious amounts of beer.  And yes, eight days... a day to pack and go part of the way, a day of driving and setting up the display, four days of the convention, a day of packing and being to tired to leave Sunday, two days of driving (or driving all night and arriving the second morning mentally burned to a crisp...)

I think we'd have given up a lot sooner if not for Forrest Brown and Butch Leeper from FASA.  Those guys are great to hang around with.  Sometimes the thought of seeing them and a few other folks was all that got us to drag our sorry asses into the van yet again.  "Once More into the breach, dear friends, once more..."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on October 18, 2015, 07:28:25 PM
Interestingly, the late eighties saw the Games Workshop explosion. And I can't help but wonder if full color hard backs and magazines with lots of pictures of miniatures would have been the solution.  I do think there was something to do with the full on punk attitude and the zeitgeist but mostly I think they hit on the high production values, high prices model that dominates the industry today first.  I'm not always sure it's really the best thing for the industry.

I sit in my store, running games for teenagers and D&D is three $58 CDN hardbacks.  The kids love them but most can't begin to afford them.  I often wonder if a Basic Dungeons & Dragons branded $20 saddle stitched booklet that ran four classes to level 10 and included an adventure wouldn't be the way to really boost the market.  The free 5e pdf is nice but costs about $20 to print on an ink jet anyhow.

But anyhow, it seems sad that nobody ever quite stepped up to take on Games Workshop at the time.  I bought ever Warhammer alternative that came out for about ten years but none of them had the budget it would have taken.  TSR could have done it but always seemed to fumble their attempts at getting into miniatures.  I think the desire to make D&D less wargame like might have been behind it.  There were other people doing amazing miniatures games at conventions but to this day people look at a table top full of models and say "Warhammer."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 18, 2015, 09:06:53 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;860685
There were other people doing amazing miniatures games at conventions but to this day people look at a table top full of models and say "Warhammer."
I only say when the the minis' hands, feet, swords, and guns are freakishly big.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 19, 2015, 02:26:26 AM
Quote from: Atsuku Nare;860590
Let me just start by saying I'm really enjoying this thread!

I do have a couple questions for Chirine:

Did Phil ever a player in anyone's game, or was he exclusively a game master?

Along with all the local adventures you came across as you traveled, did you ever stumble on world-changing plots? Like an insane wizard/AI/god that wanted to move Tekumel back to Humanspace? Or were your adventures more in working within the status quo (which it seems like from your descriptions)?

Lastly, when you run Tekumel, do you do anything different from Phil to "put your own spin on it?"

Thanks!


Well, let's see...

Aside from miniatures games and campaigns, I think he was a player in three campaigns; Gronan's D&D, Arneson's Blackmoor for a short while, and as a Livyani PC, Turshaz Arrio, in our first big adventure as a group - the 'Secret Mission' to the Southern Continent. His first PC,  Firu ba Yeker of the Clan of the Uttermost Secret, was always a useful source of information - no matter where you were on Tekumel, there'd be this retired Priest of Sarku sitting in the marketplace telling stories. You put a copper in his bowl, and you got all the juicy gossip and rumors. A couple more coppers, and you might get directions to something really cool.

We stumbled on plots like this all the time, and occasionally had a minor role in them. Phil liked to keep his players out of the 'mainstream' of things, so that we would not screw up his novels as he wrote them He'd include our adventures as local color or as background, though. Our hairy footprints are all over "Flamesong", for example.

By the time we started playing, Tekumel had been dropped back into Humanspace twice, the Gods had all been defeated, and the world had come to an end several times. We wanted to simply explore and adventure the world-setting, so we spent out time within our society and having all sorts of epic adventures along the way. We played people who lived on and in Tekumel, I guess I'd say.


No, I do not. I am very careful not to introduce anything into Phil's view of his world through my games, unless I can support that through something Phil wrote or talked about. I play a very 'straight' Tekumel, and I do not put my own individual stamp or spin on what I do. This is where being an archivist and historian comes into play. If Phil did it, then I do it; if he didn't then I don't.

Now, having said that, I do one thing that Phil did not do; I compress time as needed. As I've remarked, Phil had a habit of running his games in one week of real time + one week of game time. This made for very long 'pauses' in the time flow, when we had to play catch-up and run a week's worth of adventures in a single night. I don't do that; I make a series of rolls, and if nothing has happened we move on. Game time expands and contracts as needed in real time, so that we can maintain continuity in the time flow. In model railroading operations, this used to be called 'the rubber clock', in order to run trains to the timetable but allowing for events to happen.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 19, 2015, 02:28:04 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;860622
So you mean, he was trying to gain by selling in bulk:D?

Yeah, there is a point where selling physical product is too cheap. But it seems a common mistake;).


No, he was trying to destroy TSR. He was right up front about it, too. Since it was his company, there wasn't much we could say about it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 19, 2015, 02:30:55 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;860675
A few words on Akbar and Jeff's Traveling Tekumel Show:

First... Dave Arneson was a dear, sweet man, I miss him greatly, and I would truly describe him as "a gentle soul".  However, he had all the business acumen of a colony of cherrystone clams.  He had cover art and boxes produced for at least a couple of games that never got written.  By the way, boxes are a shockingly expensive proposition; having a thousand full color boxes sitting empty in inventory is a huge drag.

I'd forgotten about the Balboa stuff.

And let me say this:  In my opinion, nobody, and I mean nobody, has done more to promote Tekumel than Chrinie.  Not create, enhance, enrich... I mean promote.  Without his efforts I truly believe Tekumel would have slipped into obscurity in the middle 90s and never been heard from again.  No single person has worked harder to make and keep the gaming world aware of Tekumel.

And yes, we worked our bloody asses off as Akbar and Jeff's Traveling Tekumel Show (AAJTTS).  (By the way, 100XP for the first person besides Chirine who can identify "Akbar and Jeff" without Google.)  It was every bit as thankless as Chirine's description above makes it sound.  The real reward was that we met people at cons who absolutely loved it, and that is what kept us going.  When I finally gave it up I dropped out of gaming as a hobby for 15 years.  They say "Do what you love and you'll never work a day of your life."  They lie.  This is why I've never tried to get involved with anything about model railroading in any commercial sense.

And Chrine is, if anything, understating the flurry that went on around his miniatures demo games.  Very early on, an eager player who just lost a unit said "If I buy more figures can I use them in the battle?"  Chirine, not having just fallen off the Mash-fruit Chlen cart, said "Sure."  At which point our young lad ran to the table to buy more figures.

I sidled over and prison-yard whispered "I'd think some tactics would help, but I'm not telling him that," to which Chirine grinned and replied "Ixnay on the actics-tay when the ustomer-cay has ash-cay."

It reached the point that we were not only selling miniatures, we were selling Exacto knives, tubes of glue, and sheets of cardboard as well.  (All miniatures must be assembled and based.)  Sometimes each team had one guy just gluing figures to bases full time.

This is when I realized Chirine is one of the greatest natural marketers in the world.  He'd be running the miniatures demo all day long, with players/customers running to our dealer table to buy more minis and throw them into the carnage (think of a volcanic subduction zone -- figures just marched into the center and disappeared), and I'd be taking money and handing out miniatures so fast there were scorch marks on them.  Sometimes we'd have a helper or two (Aaron P. and Perfect Mikey), in which case I could stand there with my jaw hanging open watching Chirine work.

So why, ultimately, did it fail?  Well, the single biggest reason is that we're talking the 1981-1985 time period.  1982 was the peak year for D&D, and 1983 saw sales decline sharply, and keep falling.  And "as goes D&D, so goes the market."  We were trying to turn Tekumel into "the new D&D" at exactly the time that D&D stopped being "the new D&D."  Alas, as my dear grandfather used to say, "Hindsight is always 20/20."  By 1985 GAMA meetings were mostly on the subject of "how to turn the market around," and in 1986 I got the contract to write a Star Trek module for FASA that included a board game, to "get RPG players playing wargames."

If I had it all to do over again, as the saying goes, assuming that I knew then what I knew now (including that business degree) I would try to become a great little spare time business instead of trying to turn Tekumel into the world's most popular RPG, and I would have spent a lot less time "doing the same old thing harder than before" and more time figuring what the new thing should be.

Sports writers talk about boxers having "heart."  "The kid's got heart."  Well, AAJTTS had plenty of heart, but in retrospect I see that, sadly, we were pretty much trying to accomplish the impossible.  We weren't alone; the late 80s took a huge toll in the adventure game industry as it slowly sunk in that we weren't seeing a downward hiccup in the market, we were seeing the collapse of a bubble after the Gold Rush.  Things had changed and were not coming back, but nobody realized that at the time.

And people far more trained and experienced then we were have fallen prey to such circumstances... the early 2000s housing bubble being the most recent example.  It happens.


Heaps of truth here, folks. We busted our butts on this.

And thank you for the kind words - I've been told by several of Phil's old players that I was the only one keeping the thing alive for all those years.

Well, we tried, anyway... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 19, 2015, 02:32:07 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;860678
Hoo boy.  I remember by the end of the summer convention season (Gen Con, I believe) we were ready to pile the merchandise in a heap and set it on fire rather then load it into the damn van one more time.  And this is when we were young, strong, and healthy.

If you ever want to get a great bargain at a con, have the patience to wait until Sunday afternoon.  At the last DragonCon I went to somebody was selling game supplements that were a couple of years old.  On Thursday they were $5 each.  By Sunday afternoon they were "Buy one get TWO free," which is a fancy way of saying "For the love of GOD please don't make me carry these things out to the truck."  Nothing like eight days of hard work, little sleep, bad food, and stupid questions, and in my case, copious amounts of beer.  And yes, eight days... a day to pack and go part of the way, a day of driving and setting up the display, four days of the convention, a day of packing and being to tired to leave Sunday, two days of driving (or driving all night and arriving the second morning mentally burned to a crisp...)

I think we'd have given up a lot sooner if not for Forrest Brown and Butch Leeper from FASA.  Those guys are great to hang around with.  Sometimes the thought of seeing them and a few other folks was all that got us to drag our sorry asses into the van yet again.  "Once More into the breach, dear friends, once more..."


Yep. I have a basement full of stuff that I got this way, to the delight of the merchants off-loading the stuff on me... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 19, 2015, 02:36:08 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;860685
Interestingly, the late eighties saw the Games Workshop explosion. And I can't help but wonder if full color hard backs and magazines with lots of pictures of miniatures would have been the solution.  I do think there was something to do with the full on punk attitude and the zeitgeist but mostly I think they hit on the high production values, high prices model that dominates the industry today first.  I'm not always sure it's really the best thing for the industry.

I sit in my store, running games for teenagers and D&D is three $58 CDN hardbacks.  The kids love them but most can't begin to afford them.  I often wonder if a Basic Dungeons & Dragons branded $20 saddle stitched booklet that ran four classes to level 10 and included an adventure wouldn't be the way to really boost the market.  The free 5e pdf is nice but costs about $20 to print on an ink jet anyhow.

But anyhow, it seems sad that nobody ever quite stepped up to take on Games Workshop at the time.  I bought ever Warhammer alternative that came out for about ten years but none of them had the budget it would have taken.  TSR could have done it but always seemed to fumble their attempts at getting into miniatures.  I think the desire to make D&D less wargame like might have been behind it.  There were other people doing amazing miniatures games at conventions but to this day people look at a table top full of models and say "Warhammer."


Oh, agreed; nobody had the money to invest in the kind of vertical integration and physical plant that GW invested in. And nobody had the business practices that they used, either.

And I agree with you about the price barrier to get into the hobby. Which is one of the reasons Ral Partha is bringing their figures back into the market at very good prices - they are very upfront about trying to get younger people interested in the hobby.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 19, 2015, 02:38:17 AM
Quote from: Bren;860707
I only say when the the minis' hands, feet, swords, and guns are freakishly big.


Oh, agreed! Some of their stuff - usually the older items - are pretty good, but a lot of the lines are specifically aimed at their 'market demographic'.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 19, 2015, 01:59:35 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;860685
Interestingly, the late eighties saw the Games Workshop explosion. And I can't help but wonder if full color hard backs and magazines with lots of pictures of miniatures would have been the solution.  I do think there was something to do with the full on punk attitude and the zeitgeist but mostly I think they hit on the high production values, high prices model that dominates the industry today first.  I'm not always sure it's really the best thing for the industry.

I sit in my store, running games for teenagers and D&D is three $58 CDN hardbacks.  The kids love them but most can't begin to afford them.  I often wonder if a Basic Dungeons & Dragons branded $20 saddle stitched booklet that ran four classes to level 10 and included an adventure wouldn't be the way to really boost the market.  The free 5e pdf is nice but costs about $20 to print on an ink jet anyhow.
Isn't the OSR helping there?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;860728
Well, let's see...

Aside from miniatures games and campaigns, I think he was a player in three campaigns; Gronan's D&D, Arneson's Blackmoor for a short while, and as a Livyani PC, Turshaz Arrio, in our first big adventure as a group - the 'Secret Mission' to the Southern Continent. His first PC,  Firu ba Yeker of the Clan of the Uttermost Secret, was always a useful source of information - no matter where you were on Tekumel, there'd be this retired Priest of Sarku sitting in the marketplace telling stories. You put a copper in his bowl, and you got all the juicy gossip and rumors. A couple more coppers, and you might get directions to something really cool.
Tell us, oh, Chirine, the tale(s) of Turshaz Arrio...:)

And tell us, oh mighty Gronan, of MARB's play in your campaign. So far, you've told us one fact that I presume was about it: that when Phil told you the monsters in your dungeon wouldn't have a place to eat, you've added a McD for monsters to the dungeon's lower levels;)!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;860729
No, he was trying to destroy TSR. He was right up front about it, too. Since it was his company, there wasn't much we could say about it.
I really, really hope you're kidding there.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 19, 2015, 02:43:36 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;860797
Isn't the OSR helping there?


Tell us, oh, Chirine, the tale(s) of Turshaz Arrio...:)

And tell us, oh mighty Gronan, of MARB's play in your campaign. So far, you've told us one fact that I presume was about it: that when Phil told you the monsters in your dungeon wouldn't have a place to eat, you've added a McD for monsters to the dungeon's lower levels;)!


I really, really hope you're kidding there.


No, probably not. I'm sure I'll get in trouble for saying this, but the OSR seems to be a different market then the 'mass market' that Hasbro is selling to. From what I have seen, there isn't a lot of OSR material available in the FLGS market.

Well, Phil wanted to play a bit along the way, so he rolled this guy up in order to be able to participate. Dave Arneson would GM those bits, and I think I did as well on a couple of occasions. Phil was very good, and very much into being a Livyani. I'll try to remember more; I also did him as a miniature, and I'll try to get a photo for you - he's still in the game room.

No, I'm not kidding. Dave was quite probably the nicest guy I've ever known, but TSR and the people in Lake Geneva were his personal demons. (When I talked to Luke Gygax, back in March, he said the folks there had the same view of Dave as he had of them.) AGI was a stick to beat TSR with, and Tekumel and I were the sharp end of that stick. Publishing Phil wasn't a business decision for Dave, it was a way to twit the Blumes, and having the Akbar and Jeff Show as the big, noisy, bright, loud circus act was worth hauling us around; it made the TSR efforts at marketing look pedestrian in comparison - this guy in steel armor attracted all the crowds, and got all the girls. (Origins in Dallas, 1982; three of them. I have the photo that Dave took of all of us in costume in front of the booth.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 19, 2015, 11:21:20 PM
The other thing Dave was trying to do with Adventure Games was, in his own words, "turn gaming back into what it should be."  In other words, an extension of campaign rules for adult wargamers.

Even in 1982-83 several of AGI's products had a "retro" feel, before "retro" was a thing.  First Fantasy Campaign is a lot closer in style and spirit to the three little brown books than anything being published in the 80s.  "Mutant" was just AGI's version of "Gamma World".  (Did it ever actually get published?)  And the large SF rule set I can't remember the name of (Chirine and I rather satirically called it "Star Thing" because of its sheer size) would have been a world beater in 1976.  But by 1981 you had Traveller, Star Frontiers, and FASA's incredibly good STAR TREK game, and the "generic SF build your own universe toolkit" was an obsolete product.

It's also why the straight wargames AGI published were excellent.  I don't know enough about the 18th century to criticize "Compleat Brigadier," but it sold very well, as did "Jonny Reb."

Pretty much EVERYBODY mocked TSR for their marketing to kids, and for the goofy "D&D" cartoon show.  But really, they knew what they were doing; another "thing I learned in business school" is that the 11 to18 demographic is a juicy one.  Those little varmints have a lot of discretionary income.

Lseeon Learned... Don't scoff at what the biggest by far company in the business is doing.

Of course, it meant that when TSR sales started to fall the entire market deflated faster then a punctured whoopee cushion.  I saw the first signs of the collapse but didn't know what I was looking at... in 1981 I was working at a bookstore when the G series of modules was rereleased as one module.  Since we still had several copies of each of the old ones I advised against buying any.  Rereleasing old modules in new packaging in the bookstore trade, where returns are a real thing, eventually turned around and bit TSR in the nuts.

I may not be back for several days.  Have fun.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on October 19, 2015, 11:30:32 PM
The other place I've always felt that Games Workshop had an easy in was that TSR moved away from anything horrific or occult-looking in their games.  Sure they were selling to kids, but the older fans often shifted to Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay in the late eighties because its tone was closer to the older D&D material.  Games Workshop was edgy and humorous and later TSR tended to be apologetic and dry.  I've always thought the removal of the cartoons in the DMG to have been a huge mistake.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 20, 2015, 02:20:21 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;860813
No, probably not. I'm sure I'll get in trouble for saying this, but the OSR seems to be a different market then the 'mass market' that Hasbro is selling to. From what I have seen, there isn't a lot of OSR material available in the FLGS market.

Well, Phil wanted to play a bit along the way, so he rolled this guy up in order to be able to participate. Dave Arneson would GM those bits, and I think I did as well on a couple of occasions. Phil was very good, and very much into being a Livyani. I'll try to remember more; I also did him as a miniature, and I'll try to get a photo for you - he's still in the game room.

No, I'm not kidding. Dave was quite probably the nicest guy I've ever known, but TSR and the people in Lake Geneva were his personal demons. (When I talked to Luke Gygax, back in March, he said the folks there had the same view of Dave as he had of them.) AGI was a stick to beat TSR with, and Tekumel and I were the sharp end of that stick. Publishing Phil wasn't a business decision for Dave, it was a way to twit the Blumes, and having the Akbar and Jeff Show as the big, noisy, bright, loud circus act was worth hauling us around; it made the TSR efforts at marketing look pedestrian in comparison - this guy in steel armor attracted all the crowds, and got all the girls. (Origins in Dallas, 1982; three of them. I have the photo that Dave took of all of us in costume in front of the booth.)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;860895
The other thing Dave was trying to do with Adventure Games was, in his own words, "turn gaming back into what it should be."  In other words, an extension of campaign rules for adult wargamers.

Even in 1982-83 several of AGI's products had a "retro" feel, before "retro" was a thing.  First Fantasy Campaign is a lot closer in style and spirit to the three little brown books than anything being published in the 80s.  "Mutant" was just AGI's version of "Gamma World".  (Did it ever actually get published?)  And the large SF rule set I can't remember the name of (Chirine and I rather satirically called it "Star Thing" because of its sheer size) would have been a world beater in 1976.  But by 1981 you had Traveller, Star Frontiers, and FASA's incredibly good STAR TREK game, and the "generic SF build your own universe toolkit" was an obsolete product.

It's also why the straight wargames AGI published were excellent.  I don't know enough about the 18th century to criticize "Compleat Brigadier," but it sold very well, as did "Jonny Reb."

Pretty much EVERYBODY mocked TSR for their marketing to kids, and for the goofy "D&D" cartoon show.  But really, they knew what they were doing; another "thing I learned in business school" is that the 11 to18 demographic is a juicy one.  Those little varmints have a lot of discretionary income.

Lseeon Learned... Don't scoff at what the biggest by far company in the business is doing.

Of course, it meant that when TSR sales started to fall the entire market deflated faster then a punctured whoopee cushion.  I saw the first signs of the collapse but didn't know what I was looking at... in 1981 I was working at a bookstore when the G series of modules was rereleased as one module.  Since we still had several copies of each of the old ones I advised against buying any.  Rereleasing old modules in new packaging in the bookstore trade, where returns are a real thing, eventually turned around and bit TSR in the nuts.

I may not be back for several days.  Have fun.
Okay...thank you, both of you! That's a part of gaming history I completely ignored. Books on gaming history don't help here even if you buy them, unless you read them...and they've been sitting on another PC for what should be ages now:).

Not that I disagree completely with Arneson's views on the matter, as presented, but I also don't find myself agreeing completely...and it was probably even more complicated than you could describe in forum posts. Humans often are these complex, interesting little buggers, and then we discuss them on forums, reducing them to whatever we can write...

I think I'd better stop delving on this topic now.

Quote from: David Johansen;860896
The other place I've always felt that Games Workshop had an easy in was that TSR moved away from anything horrific or occult-looking in their games.  Sure they were selling to kids, but the older fans often shifted to Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay in the late eighties because its tone was closer to the older D&D material.  Games Workshop was edgy and humorous and later TSR tended to be apologetic and dry.  I've always thought the removal of the cartoons in the DMG to have been a huge mistake.
Thank you for putting in words the tonal shift. I was trying to remember what bugged me when reading "late TSR" for the first time. And yeah, I migrated to other systems as well, mostly because of it...also because the only DM for "late TSR" I knew was atrocious in more than one way, but the books themselves were part of it.

The sadder part is, lately I've been getting the same feeling from lots of the books of big game publishers.


Anyway, enough with dwelling on this! Chirine, I asked you about the Saving Gordon Dickson's Books last, right? Can you tell us more about his writing?

Whatever you think is relevant and not often mentioned would be fine;).

And a short follow-up question, if I may: I'm sure you knew of a short little game named Dragon Warriors, given you solved the author's judicial case...but was it known among gamers in the USA, or was it mainly popular in the UK?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 20, 2015, 02:28:51 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;860895
The other thing Dave was trying to do with Adventure Games was, in his own words, "turn gaming back into what it should be."  In other words, an extension of campaign rules for adult wargamers.

Even in 1982-83 several of AGI's products had a "retro" feel, before "retro" was a thing.  First Fantasy Campaign is a lot closer in style and spirit to the three little brown books than anything being published in the 80s.  "Mutant" was just AGI's version of "Gamma World".  (Did it ever actually get published?)  And the large SF rule set I can't remember the name of (Chirine and I rather satirically called it "Star Thing" because of its sheer size) would have been a world beater in 1976.  But by 1981 you had Traveller, Star Frontiers, and FASA's incredibly good STAR TREK game, and the "generic SF build your own universe toolkit" was an obsolete product.

It's also why the straight wargames AGI published were excellent.  I don't know enough about the 18th century to criticize "Compleat Brigadier," but it sold very well, as did "Jonny Reb."

Pretty much EVERYBODY mocked TSR for their marketing to kids, and for the goofy "D&D" cartoon show.  But really, they knew what they were doing; another "thing I learned in business school" is that the 11 to18 demographic is a juicy one.  Those little varmints have a lot of discretionary income.

Lseeon Learned... Don't scoff at what the biggest by far company in the business is doing.

Of course, it meant that when TSR sales started to fall the entire market deflated faster then a punctured whoopee cushion.  I saw the first signs of the collapse but didn't know what I was looking at... in 1981 I was working at a bookstore when the G series of modules was rereleased as one module.  Since we still had several copies of each of the old ones I advised against buying any.  Rereleasing old modules in new packaging in the bookstore trade, where returns are a real thing, eventually turned around and bit TSR in the nuts.

I may not be back for several days.  Have fun.


Miss? Another beer for my General, please? Thank you!

Yeah, I'd agree with this premise; neither Dave nor Gary nor Phil were ever simple one-dimensional people. Yes, Dave really did want to turn back the clock, and we had some pretty darn good products in that vein: "Compleat Brigadier", "Rails Through The Rockies", and "Harpoon" all fall under that aegis. "Mutant" never made it our of playtesting; the boxes looked lovely, but were eventually donated to the local F/SF convention for use as registration packet containers. "Star Thing" - what was it formally called? I can't recall, as I never got a look at the manuscript - never made it through typesetting, let along playtest.

When AGI stayed on historical grounds, they did very well; with the exception of Ken Fletcher, all of them were Dave's buddies from the First Minnesota Volunteers, so I think it was built-in. They never found their feet with RPGs; "Adventures in Fantasy" was about it, and of course us 'Tekumel Boat People' (1). And they never could figure out why we could sell the merchandise...

Fascinating, looking back on all of this, from this distance in time...

(1) 'The Tekumel Boat People' was Dave's name for us; we lived in the basement of 1278 Selby, AGI's building (Dave and his family loved on the top floor) where we lived up pallets and under tarps; when it rained, water would come up out of the floor drain, and when somebody flushed the AGI toilet, water would come down out of the ceiling. Oh, those were the days, weren't they? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 20, 2015, 02:31:17 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;860896
The other place I've always felt that Games Workshop had an easy in was that TSR moved away from anything horrific or occult-looking in their games.  Sure they were selling to kids, but the older fans often shifted to Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay in the late eighties because its tone was closer to the older D&D material.  Games Workshop was edgy and humorous and later TSR tended to be apologetic and dry.  I've always thought the removal of the cartoons in the DMG to have been a huge mistake.


Agreed. You could never gotten EPT past the Morality Police at TSR, as it violated something like 90% of their strictures against 'unwholesome' content. I can recall some of them having the vapors over our stuff, even back as early as 1980 or so.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 20, 2015, 02:45:50 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;860913
Okay...thank you, both of you! That's a part of gaming history I completely ignored. Books on gaming history don't help here even if you buy them, unless you read them...and they've been sitting on another PC for what should be ages now:).

Not that I disagree completely with Arneson's views on the matter, as presented, but I also don't find myself agreeing completely...and it was probably even more complicated than you could describe in forum posts. Humans often are these complex, interesting little buggers, and then we discuss them on forums, reducing them to whatever we can write...

I think I'd better stop delving on this topic now.


Thank you for putting in words the tonal shift. I was trying to remember what bugged me when reading "late TSR" for the first time. And yeah, I migrated to other systems as well, mostly because of it...also because the only DM for "late TSR" I knew was atrocious in more than one way, but the books themselves were part of it.

The sadder part is, lately I've been getting the same feeling from lots of the books of big game publishers.


Anyway, enough with dwelling on this! Chirine, I asked you about the Saving Gordon Dickson's Books last, right? Can you tell us more about his writing?

Whatever you think is relevant and not often mentioned would be fine;).

And a short follow-up question, if I may: I'm sure you knew of a short little game named Dragon Warriors, given you solved the author's judicial case...but was it known among gamers in the USA, or was it mainly popular in the UK?


Ok, let's see...

Yes; they were complex people, and short posts just don;t do them justice. The game hobby / industry back in those days was a lot more nuanced and complicated then it comes across in references. And yes, I also thought that the 'later TSR stuff had been 'sanitized' for the mass market.

On Gordy... Well, he was a good, solid writer, who could be relied on to produce good stuff by editors and publishers. I thought his and Poul Anderson's 'Hoka' series was hysterical; the 'Childe Cycle', which included the Dorsai series within it, got a little philosophical for me but I still liked it. I just liked his work - it had a resonance with me, and I think that was because we also had a lot of stuff in common like our love of history. What he didn't know about Sir John Hawkwood would fit on a small postage stamp, and his telling me about that period and those people had an influence on how we played in Phil's campaign. Kathy Marshall drew Yours Truly as a version of Frederigo di Montefeltro (spelling's probably bad, sorry), the mercenary Duke of Urbino.

He was very approachable, and very kind. I enjoyed doing up the Dorsai miniatures and vehicles for him. (No idea what happened to them after he passed away.)

What else? Themes? Characters? What would you like? :)

No, "Dragon Warriors" didn't seem to make any kind of a splash here in the US; I don't recall ever seeing any copies in the local stores. Maybe somebody can help us with this?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on October 20, 2015, 08:53:35 AM
Another thing I find interesting to note is that originally Warhammer had a strong, do it yourself, anything goes mentality, and was in fact more of a wargame than an rpg.  I think what Games Workshop succeeded in doing was proving that higher end products could succeed in a market where minigames had been a major wave in the early eighties.

I recall reading that Rick Loomis was the first one to charge more money for his Diplomacy play by mail games and it allowed him to dominate the industry.

So, I would posit that with some glossy, color photos, and a price hike it's entirely possible somebody else could have gotten to it first.  On the other hand I think part of it was that the bubble of players from the fad hit the age where they had jobs and time on their hands right when Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and Warhammer Fantasy Battle Third Edition hit in their big, shiny hard backs.  So the window of opportunity was narrow.  TSR could have done it if they had any vision or perhaps Heritage if things had gone a bit differently.  FASA was close but Battle Tech took too much record keeping and didn't do the large battles that sell tons of miniatures well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 20, 2015, 12:42:29 PM
Hello Chirine,

I hope all is well. Just a few of quick questions...

Can you say a bit more about the instances Tekumel was pulled back into Humanspace? Also about the defeat of The Twenty? It seems your predecessors liked to cause all manner of problems in Bethorm...

Would have any plot details from the Professor's two unpublished novels? And how it fits into the Professor's History of Tekumel? Thank you.


Hope to hear From you soon,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 20, 2015, 02:24:45 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;860935
Another thing I find interesting to note is that originally Warhammer had a strong, do it yourself, anything goes mentality, and was in fact more of a wargame than an rpg.  I think what Games Workshop succeeded in doing was proving that higher end products could succeed in a market where minigames had been a major wave in the early eighties.

I recall reading that Rick Loomis was the first one to charge more money for his Diplomacy play by mail games and it allowed him to dominate the industry.

So, I would posit that with some glossy, color photos, and a price hike it's entirely possible somebody else could have gotten to it first.  On the other hand I think part of it was that the bubble of players from the fad hit the age where they had jobs and time on their hands right when Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and Warhammer Fantasy Battle Third Edition hit in their big, shiny hard backs.  So the window of opportunity was narrow.  TSR could have done it if they had any vision or perhaps Heritage if things had gone a bit differently.  FASA was close but Battle Tech took too much record keeping and didn't do the large battles that sell tons of miniatures well.


Quite probably, although some analysts have suggested that GW is not really a part of what most people consider ' the gaming hobby'; we're in what amounts to a small niche market, while GW aims at the much larger mass market. I'm thinking here of all the commentaries over the past years about 'Why is GW not making games for me?' that a lot of the 'older' (read anything older then twenty-somethings) fans make in various forum postings.

Back when I was in GAMA, what I thought was very interesting was the relatively narrow focus that people had - your point of 'thinking big' with more color and spash was not happening, as I think there just wasn't enough investment money in the RPG hobby at that time to pay for such. (Let alone the miniatures hobby.)

So, yes, I think you're right; GW caught the tail end of the D&D bubble, and managed to grab those dollars and pounds pretty neatly.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on October 20, 2015, 02:40:43 PM
I think there's a distinct difference between Games Workshop in the eighties, nineties, and new millennium.  In the early eighties Warhammer was a side line and they published D&D in the UK.  In the late eighties they turned to the full on Warhammer company but were still distributed by the gaming industry.  By the early nineties with the success of Adeptus Mechanicus and Warhammer 4th edition, they moved from the hardbacks to jumbo boxed sets with plastic figures.  It was around this time that they jettisoned the gaming distribution network and built their own.  Warhammer 40000 3rd edition and Warhammer Fantasy Battle 6th edition saw them turn towards larger armies, more plastic figures, and more rigidly tournament oriented rules.  White Dwarf quickly declined from a hobby magazine with lots of painting and terrain building and scenarios and fun odds and ends like naval combat in 28mm and jousting rules to a full on product spotlight flyer.  Along side this was the decline and eventual dropping of the tournament circuit.  With Age of Sigmar, GW deliberately jettisoned the Warhammer mechanics and even dropped points totals.  If it's successful, Warhammer 40000 will probably follow suit.  Leaving little more than a skeleton of a game.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 20, 2015, 02:45:38 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;860952
Hello Chirine,

I hope all is well. Just a few of quick questions...

Can you say a bit more about the instances Tekumel was pulled back into Humanspace? Also about the defeat of The Twenty? It seems your predecessors liked to cause all manner of problems in Bethorm...

Would have any plot details from the Professor's two unpublished novels? And how it fits into the Professor's History of Tekumel? Thank you.


Hope to hear From you soon,

H :0)


They did, really. The first time back into Humanspace was after Eyloa was fooling around with the Egg of the World; I think the second was after they messed around with Baron Ald's Big Black Box. There are very, very few written records from that time - or from that group in general, as they were not particularly interested in any kind of long-term campaign record-keeping.
They also fought  the Battle of the Gods at Dormoron Plain, and 'won'. Phil 'edited' that one pretty quick.

Re the two unpublished novels: The first one was started in Lucknow in the 1950s, and is about a Harsan who gets into a lot of trouble right off the mark. It's hard to see where Phil was going in this, as while there's a plot outline and some 52 pages, these pages are scattered amongst some 13 chapters. So, there's a lot of interesting details and locations, but nothing's really developed enough to see what's going to happen. It does not seem to be connected to the five later novels that were published, but again, it's hard to tell without a detailed analysis.

(Elara hi Vriddi appears, and she's a real jerk. Good-looking, but nasty. I do have to wonder what Mirusiya sees in her.)

The last manuscript, "Beside The Dark Pool Of Memory", is more complete. There are several different electronic versions, as Phil was entirely digital by that point in his writing, and collating them together gives us about a dozen chapters. The work is much more developed, and it shows Phil's skill as a writer. I did not find a plot outline or anything in Phil's files; and what we have are the beginning chapters where Phil sets the scene, establishes where we are in his timeline, and introduces and updates the various characters. Unlike the first novel, there is a plot that's being developed, but it's not all that apparent where Phil's going with it. We have about a quarter of the book, and it's the first one.

I'm sorry that I can't be more specific, but it's just not there. The Lucknow manuscript is very 'underdeveloped', and could be published as an artifact - but that would be it. The last one? Well, it would take a whole lot of work to make anything out of it; one would be writing a novel almost from scratch, and having to incorporate the existing chapters as well. Sorry, but that's all we have.

If I may be permitted a comment; this is one of the reasons why my little effort is being written in separate 'episodes', rather then 'in order'. I have the advantage in that I'm writing about our adventures, so I can tell the stories as  think of them; you, the reader, will then be able to read them in the order in which they happened. I think my job is easier then the one Phil set himself, and I'm still astounded at how much he really did.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 20, 2015, 07:51:27 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;860918
Ok, let's see...

Yes; they were complex people, and short posts just don;t do them justice. The game hobby / industry back in those days was a lot more nuanced and complicated then it comes across in references. And yes, I also thought that the 'later TSR stuff had been 'sanitized' for the mass market.

On Gordy... Well, he was a good, solid writer, who could be relied on to produce good stuff by editors and publishers. I thought his and Poul Anderson's 'Hoka' series was hysterical; the 'Childe Cycle', which included the Dorsai series within it, got a little philosophical for me but I still liked it. I just liked his work - it had a resonance with me, and I think that was because we also had a lot of stuff in common like our love of history. What he didn't know about Sir John Hawkwood would fit on a small postage stamp, and his telling me about that period and those people had an influence on how we played in Phil's campaign. Kathy Marshall drew Yours Truly as a version of Frederigo di Montefeltro (spelling's probably bad, sorry), the mercenary Duke of Urbino.

He was very approachable, and very kind. I enjoyed doing up the Dorsai miniatures and vehicles for him. (No idea what happened to them after he passed away.)

What else? Themes? Characters? What would you like? :)

No, "Dragon Warriors" didn't seem to make any kind of a splash here in the US; I don't recall ever seeing any copies in the local stores. Maybe somebody can help us with this?

Hmm, that's kinda a cross-info, so I feel obligated to ask. How did him telling you about John Hawkwood "influence your play at Phil's campaign"?

And I just like what (addmittedly little) of Gordon Dickson I've read. So, I guess: whatever you find interesting about his themes and/or characters:)?

I was just asking about Dragon Warriors because I happen to be running a forum game of it on another forum;).
It seems a few of the premises of the game would be considered "too nasty" by those Referees usually known as "Killer GMs". I mean, the rules support dungeon crawls, but that's a game where your combat-focused character gains exactly one hit point by going up a level. Imagine a cross of OD&D and Pendragon, if you can.
Long story short, I was just wondering how it was received at the time. "It wasn't noticed" is about what I expected, really.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;860917
Agreed. You could never gotten EPT past the Morality Police at TSR, as it violated something like 90% of their strictures against 'unwholesome' content. I can recall some of them having the vapors over our stuff, even back as early as 1980 or so.

I'm afraid we might be seeing the emergence of a new Morality Police.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;860916
'The Tekumel Boat People' was Dave's name for us; we lived in the basement of 1278 Selby, AGI's building (Dave and his family loved on the top floor) where we lived up pallets and under tarps; when it rained, water would come up out of the floor drain, and when somebody flushed the AGI toilet, water would come down out of the ceiling. Oh, those were the days, weren't they? :)

I'm pretty sure that these days, that would get them in deep trouble with the authorities, possibly investigated for slavery and forced labour:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 21, 2015, 01:44:50 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;860966
I think there's a distinct difference between Games Workshop in the eighties, nineties, and new millennium.  In the early eighties Warhammer was a side line and they published D&D in the UK.  In the late eighties they turned to the full on Warhammer company but were still distributed by the gaming industry.  By the early nineties with the success of Adeptus Mechanicus and Warhammer 4th edition, they moved from the hardbacks to jumbo boxed sets with plastic figures.  It was around this time that they jettisoned the gaming distribution network and built their own.  Warhammer 40000 3rd edition and Warhammer Fantasy Battle 6th edition saw them turn towards larger armies, more plastic figures, and more rigidly tournament oriented rules.  White Dwarf quickly declined from a hobby magazine with lots of painting and terrain building and scenarios and fun odds and ends like naval combat in 28mm and jousting rules to a full on product spotlight flyer.  Along side this was the decline and eventual dropping of the tournament circuit.  With Age of Sigmar, GW deliberately jettisoned the Warhammer mechanics and even dropped points totals.  If it's successful, Warhammer 40000 will probably follow suit.  Leaving little more than a skeleton of a game.


Yes, I'd agree with this. The GW of today is very, very different from the storefront it once was. I never really played any of their games; I have to admit that none of them really appealed to me. (Some of the miniatures, though, have proven to be very useful over the years.) I had copies of many of the books and magazines, and I recently gave them away to some of the young people (high school aged) in my gaming group as I simply wasn't using them for anything. They like them, so I'm calling it a success... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 21, 2015, 02:13:30 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;861011
Hmm, that's kinda a cross-info, so I feel obligated to ask. How did him telling you about John Hawkwood "influence your play at Phil's campaign"?

And I just like what (addmittedly little) of Gordon Dickson I've read. So, I guess: whatever you find interesting about his themes and/or characters:)?


Oh, right; let me gather my thoughts on Gordy's writing, and I'll have something for you as soon as I can.

Learning about the workings of a mercenary company like Hawkwood's 'White Company' was an eye opener; we were just starting to do the first military campaign out at Phil's, where the Glorious General was still a field-grade officer with a legion. We didn't have a lot of good information back then about how a period military unit functioned; we had Engel's book on Alexander the Great's army, and some good stuff on the Roman legions, but it didn't address a lot of the issues and problems that we were running into in the Tekumel campaign. Like, "How do we pay the troops?" Or, "How do we feed the troops in this crummy desert?" Phil wanted us to work these things out, otherwise he was all ready to hand us a mutiny or starvation. Either way, Castle Tilketl was not going to get stormed, and Gronan was not going to get a promotion. (And we were all likely to get dead, too.)

Being originally wargamers, we mostly just brought troops to the tale and fought the battles.  As RPG players, we had a much more personal stake in learning how to do things, as our PC's lives depended on it. We plowed through Phil's extensive library, and we had the chance to talk to Gordy and look through his books as well; like Dave Arneson and his expertise in the Age of Sail, Gordy probably could have gotten a degree in medieval history.

I was astonished to discover, for example, that the White Comapny had (in addition to the expected fighting men) a whole staff of lawyers, accountants, clerks, and other 'non-combatant' specialists who ran the 'services' behind the fighting edge of the company. This is how I wound up becoming a specialist in staff work for the General, which left him free to concentrate on winning fights and so keeping us alive. We didn't run out of arrows, or water, or other useful things, which freed us to carry out our military mission.

Looking back on it, talking to Gordy gave us a whole new insight into what people have called 'the domain game' in D&D, where the players establish themselves in a castle or stronghold and use that as a base of operations. Similarly, in Phil's EPT campaign, one of the big 'goals' was to be appointed to an Imperial fief and become lords of a two-hex area. A couple of people did this, early on, but it was not a success - the disasters at Ferenara and Tu'umnra were the result, and it was years before Phil granted anyone a fief again. (Vrisa - Kathy Marshall - got the Nyemesel Isles.

Our legion became our fief, and we did our best to run it well. It was, in effect, the domain game, but not tied down to a fixed location as we marched around a fair bit over the years. So, yes, Gordy's help was invaluable, and it still is as I run my extension of the original meta-game as I play. I have the same kind of staff of people to help me run things - and I even have miniatures for them, thanks to Dark Fable! Having scribes, cooks, accountants, heralds, chamberlains, and all the other staff people give rise to more adventures, and a ready-made source of PCs for guests who drop in to play in a game or two.

"Flower, being a sensible young lady, knocked the assassin senseless with a handy platter while he was distracted." :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 21, 2015, 09:40:24 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;861046
Oh, right; let me gather my thoughts on Gordy's writing, and I'll have something for you as soon as I can.

Learning about the workings of a mercenary company like Hawkwood's 'White Company' was an eye opener; we were just starting to do the first military campaign out at Phil's, where the Glorious General was still a field-grade officer with a legion. We didn't have a lot of good information back then about how a period military unit functioned; we had Engel's book on Alexander the Great's army, and some good stuff on the Roman legions, but it didn't address a lot of the issues and problems that we were running into in the Tekumel campaign. Like, "How do we pay the troops?" Or, "How do we feed the troops in this crummy desert?" Phil wanted us to work these things out, otherwise he was all ready to hand us a mutiny or starvation. Either way, Castle Tilketl was not going to get stormed, and Gronan was not going to get a promotion. (And we were all likely to get dead, too.)

Being originally wargamers, we mostly just brought troops to the tale and fought the battles.  As RPG players, we had a much more personal stake in learning how to do things, as our PC's lives depended on it. We plowed through Phil's extensive library, and we had the chance to talk to Gordy and look through his books as well; like Dave Arneson and his expertise in the Age of Sail, Gordy probably could have gotten a degree in medieval history.

I was astonished to discover, for example, that the White Comapny had (in addition to the expected fighting men) a whole staff of lawyers, accountants, clerks, and other 'non-combatant' specialists who ran the 'services' behind the fighting edge of the company. This is how I wound up becoming a specialist in staff work for the General, which left him free to concentrate on winning fights and so keeping us alive. We didn't run out of arrows, or water, or other useful things, which freed us to carry out our military mission.

Looking back on it, talking to Gordy gave us a whole new insight into what people have called 'the domain game' in D&D, where the players establish themselves in a castle or stronghold and use that as a base of operations. Similarly, in Phil's EPT campaign, one of the big 'goals' was to be appointed to an Imperial fief and become lords of a two-hex area. A couple of people did this, early on, but it was not a success - the disasters at Ferenara and Tu'umnra were the result, and it was years before Phil granted anyone a fief again. (Vrisa - Kathy Marshall - got the Nyemesel Isles.

Our legion became our fief, and we did our best to run it well. It was, in effect, the domain game, but not tied down to a fixed location as we marched around a fair bit over the years. So, yes, Gordy's help was invaluable, and it still is as I run my extension of the original meta-game as I play. I have the same kind of staff of people to help me run things - and I even have miniatures for them, thanks to Dark Fable! Having scribes, cooks, accountants, heralds, chamberlains, and all the other staff people give rise to more adventures, and a ready-made source of PCs for guests who drop in to play in a game or two.

"Flower, being a sensible young lady, knocked the assassin senseless with a handy platter while he was distracted." :)


Heh, excellent! So Chirine became the nightmare of bureaucrats, I mean master of logistics, with Gordon Dickson's help:D?
You should totally use that for a preface of your book, you know;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 21, 2015, 11:16:49 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;861046
... but it didn't address a lot of the issues and problems that we were running into in the Tekumel campaign. Like, "How do we pay the troops?" Or, "How do we feed the troops in this crummy desert?" Phil wanted us to work these things out, otherwise he was all ready to hand us a mutiny or starvation. Either way, Castle Tilketl was not going to get stormed, and Gronan was not going to get a promotion. (And we were all likely to get dead, too.)
I'm in the process of reading Fury: War in Europe 1450-1700 by Lauro Martines. It devotes a fair bit of attention to the difficulties (impossibility really) of maintaining armies throughout that period. Disease, desertion, and starvation caused far more casualties than battle.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on October 21, 2015, 05:09:27 PM
Fabulous thread. Really loving it.

Some questions for you:

You mention that some of you guy's exploits are background stuff in the various novels. Were there any times in the five novels where you or the General were called out by name or walked by the action? I can't remember any but I could easily have missed it.

Can you explain the Arneson's ship system a little more? Was it similar to the train card system you mentioned? How many ships were plying the aklo filled depths?

You showed the incredible map of the Jakalla Underworld (much, much) earlier in the thread. Is that available anywhere? From the picture and description, it is stunning.

You describe the Prof playing almost system-less for the rpg but that you broke out minis for military actions. I am assuming that, you and Prof being old wargamers, you did not play this system-less. Did you use the same wargame for your skirmish/braunstein level stuff as you did for large engagements?

Thanks again to you and Gronan for answering these questions.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 21, 2015, 09:45:03 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;861083
Heh, excellent! So Chirine became the nightmare of bureaucrats, I mean master of logistics, with Gordon Dickson's help:D?
You should totally use that for a preface of your book, you know;).


Oh, probably! :) I wasn't really a 'bureaucrat' per se, but much more of a military staff officer. Less paperwork, more marching, and you do get to kill anyone who messes up your requisitions.

Yes, talking with Gordy and accessing his vast store of knowledge had an influence on all of us; he and Poul Anderson were founders of the SCA, back when, and as just about all of us were also either in the group or went to events, that also had an influence - which is why we have all those costumes and suits of armor in the basement.

Gordy and Poul have Book Six dedicated to them, along with Sir John Hawkwood. Each of the six volumes are dedicated to those people who had the biggest influence on me in their particular area of expertise.

Some of them might surprise you, like Col. A. D. Wintle of the First The Royals; I heartily suggest his hugely funny book, "The Last Englishman". When Wintle was captured by the Vichy French - he was an Intellegence officer in the British army at the time - he refused to be shot by them as he didn't think they were up to the job, and insisted on being shot by the Nazis instead as he felt that the Gestapo would do a better job. The Gestapo had no problems with shooting him, as he'd been a thorn in their side for years, but did say that it was really a French problem as they'd arrested him in the first place.

While the officials discussed this, Wintle sawed through the bars of his cell and escaped back to England.

I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried, folks. Real-life is an infinite source of adventure ideas... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 21, 2015, 09:51:38 PM
Quote from: Bren;861094
I'm in the process of reading Fury: War in Europe 1450-1700 by Lauro Martines. It devotes a fair bit of attention to the difficulties (impossibility really) of maintaining armies throughout that period. Disease, desertion, and starvation caused far more casualties than battle.


Must get this book! Thank you!

Yep, Phil had a huge library on this subject, and was just all chock full of wonderfully horrible diseases and other things that he was just all eager and bright-eyed to inflict on us. (He'd survived a lot of them himself, and was Strictly Forbidden by the American Red Cross from donating blood. Period. They even made him carry a wallet card that said that, too.)You are absolutely right; look at the US Army in the Spanish-American War, where losses from disease and food poisoning (bad rations) killed more soldiers then the Spanish Mausers did.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 21, 2015, 10:25:58 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;861131
Fabulous thread. Really loving it.

Some questions for you:

You mention that some of you guy's exploits are background stuff in the various novels. Were there any times in the five novels where you or the General were called out by name or walked by the action? I can't remember any but I could easily have missed it.

Can you explain the Arneson's ship system a little more? Was it similar to the train card system you mentioned? How many ships were plying the aklo filled depths?

You showed the incredible map of the Jakalla Underworld (much, much) earlier in the thread. Is that available anywhere? From the picture and description, it is stunning.

You describe the Prof playing almost system-less for the rpg but that you broke out minis for military actions. I am assuming that, you and Prof being old wargamers, you did not play this system-less. Did you use the same wargame for your skirmish/braunstein level stuff as you did for large engagements?

Thanks again to you and Gronan for answering these questions.


Welcome aboard! What makes this threat great are the people like you who ask the questions - so ask away! :)

Vrisa is mentioned by name in "Man of Gold", but I think she's the only one. We are mentioned at the end of the same book - the Southern Continent expedition - and we're the ones behind the big ship in Lake Parunal (Harchar and the rest of us) and the Third Battle of Mar in "Flamesong". I think that the General might have gotten a mention there, but I'd have to look. Otherwise, no, we're usually not the ones being given ego-strokes by being mentioned by name. The other group was relaly into that kind of thing, as were the later player in the middle 1990s and after.

What Dave did was create about thirty ship captains and their ships.( These are in the 1992 version of the database.) Then, he and Phil made notes on cargo - on index cards, as near as I can tell - and then matched both sets up ala the card order system using paper clips. Phil then shuffled the deck, and put the cards into his card files. When he did the meta game shuffle every month, he simply moved the ships around as per the cargo cards, and exchanged cargoes when each was delivered. A new cargo would be picked up, and the ship would set sail again.

It's a brilliant adaptation by the two of them of an existing technology to make the GM's job easier. With this, one has a ready-made source of ships in harbor at any time, with information on them and where they are going. The possibilities for generating adventures are infinite.

The Jakalla map and notes are not available anywhere. The Tekumel Foundation has made noises about publishing them, but that was a awhile ago; they seem to have about a three to five year turnaround on projects, based on current performance.

Uh-oh! Deeper waters ahead! :)

Generally, we did play skirmish games without a formal rules system. Let me list some of the games we played in miniature:

Attack on the fort near Tu'umnra - skirmish, played with EPT rules, but Phil really generalized the Pe Choi and did not roll them up as NPCs;

Assault on the palace of Bassa, King of the Black Ssu - skirmish, played with EPT, same note;

Storming Castle Tilketl - formal attack, but played as a skirmish - EPT rules, same note;

Third Mar - formal battle, played with my "Qadardalikoi" rules;

Battle of Anch'ke - encounter battle, played with "Qadardalikoi";

I think it was the size of the battle that was driving whether or not Phil would use a formal rules set. The first two battles were small-sized, with about twenty of us in our party; Tilketl was a sort of 'in-between' battle, with less then a cohort of troops on each side; the latter two were big battles, with us having a legion plus extras for our troops.

I do think, though, you have a very good point; because we were 'old wargamers', I think we could run a battle with a minimum of rules because we all 'knew the rules' - we all knew "Chainmail" by heart, for example - so we could get on with the fight with a minimum of time and page-flipping. I still run my games the same way - the number-crunching happens off-stage, so the players can get on with the fun.

Have a look at my videos on You Tube to see this in action. Because I know how the numbers work in the system, I can do it all in my head and get on with the adventure. Same thing with Phil; he knew how he wanted his Tekumel to work, and so a lot of the time we just rolled and reacted to what happened. "The dice don't lie, people!" was one of his favorite game table remarks; he had this amazing ability to react to and go with the dice rolls as they happened.

I should also note that when people play any set of rules and learn them, the game flow speeds up dramatically. We did this; we learned EPT pretty quickly, and after that all we did was roll - we knew what our stats were, and our chances to hit, so we'd simply tell Phil if we'd hit or not, and he'd take it from there. So, it looks system-less, but there's a lot of learning that we did to make that happen.

Has this helped, or just made it more complicated? (I worry.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 21, 2015, 10:57:59 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;861170
Must get this book! Thank you!
It's not a cheery read and there isn't any glory, nor does it focus on the strategic or diplomatic level. It is focused on war's effect on the commoners whether soldiers, peasants, or townsmen. And it has some pretty good nuggets of data and gave me a better perspective about why there was what seemed to be a lot of aimless movement in some of the early modern campaigns - not aimless, but not strategic either. Just the generals moving their armies to a new piece of countryside where they might find better foraging for food and fodder.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 21, 2015, 11:15:50 PM
Quote from: Bren;861175
It's not a cheery read and there isn't any glory, nor does it focus on the strategic or diplomatic level. It is focused on war's effect on the commoners whether soldiers, peasants, or townsmen. And it has some pretty good nuggets of data and gave me a better perspective about why there was what seemed to be a lot of aimless movement in some of the early modern campaigns - not aimless, but not strategic either. Just the generals moving their armies to a new piece of countryside where they might find better foraging for food and fodder.


Yes! This! This is one of these books that I think should be on everyone's reading list. If one wants 'realism', then here we are.

Phil would have been all over this book. At a minimum four pounds of foot and two quarts of water per soldier a day, times six thousand soldiers, one gets really interested in where the nearest water hole or source of food is...

Excellent! Thank you!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 21, 2015, 11:27:10 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;861177
Yes! This! This is one of these books that I think should be on everyone's reading list. If one wants 'realism', then here we are.

Phil would have been all over this book. At a minimum four pounds of foot and two quarts of water per soldier a day, times six thousand soldiers, one gets really interested in where the nearest water hole or source of food is...

Excellent! Thank you!!! :)

The number I saw was 1.5 lbs of bread and 1.0 lbs of meat. Also don't forget you need to bring the mills to grind the grain into flour, the ovens to bake it into bread, and the fuel to heat the oven. You forgot the wine. And you don't really want to drink the water anywhere near where six thousand soldiers plus the 600+ wagons and their 2000+ horses have just passed.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 22, 2015, 12:18:00 AM
Quote from: Bren;861180
The number I saw was 1.5 lbs of bread and 1.0 lbs of meat. Also don't forget you need to bring the mills to grind the grain into flour, the ovens to bake it into bread, and the fuel to heat the oven. You forgot the wine. And you don't really want to drink the water anywhere near where six thousand soldiers plus the 600+ wagons and their 2000+ horses have just passed.


I love this. Engels gave the four/food and two/ water in his book on Alexander's logistics; these numbers you give match what I've read about Roman rations. And yes, you are right about the 'impedimentia' in the baggage train. I've been fascinated by all the Roman re-enactment (like Prof. Junklemann's) where all this stuff is actually carried out on the march and tried to be used.

And it does point up why campaigns on Tekumel are always fraught with difficulty and have such slow paces; given that chlen carts move as slowly as oxen or bullock carts, we would up using the escorted baggage train as a base of operations - it moved along, and we'd send out skirmishing  / foraging parties from that moving base.

And entrenching at night? Nah. We'd laager up the carts, put out stakes around the camp perimeter, and hope for the best. This worked in relatively 'civilized' area, but outside? Hah!

Wonderful stuff! Thank you!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 22, 2015, 12:11:46 PM
Bren, for the record, this book went on my "to read" list.
But there's one that takes precedence.

Swords and Glory Vol 1 (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/141869/The-Tekumel-Sourcebook--Swords--Glory-Vol-1) is on Drivethru, finally!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;861168
Oh, probably! :) I wasn't really a 'bureaucrat' per se, but much more of a military staff officer. Less paperwork, more marching, and you do get to kill anyone who messes up your requisitions.

Yes, talking with Gordy and accessing his vast store of knowledge had an influence on all of us; he and Poul Anderson were founders of the SCA, back when, and as just about all of us were also either in the group or went to events, that also had an influence - which is why we have all those costumes and suits of armor in the basement.

Gordy and Poul have Book Six dedicated to them, along with Sir John Hawkwood. Each of the six volumes are dedicated to those people who had the biggest influence on me in their particular area of expertise.

Some of them might surprise you, like Col. A. D. Wintle of the First The Royals; I heartily suggest his hugely funny book, "The Last Englishman". When Wintle was captured by the Vichy French - he was an Intellegence officer in the British army at the time - he refused to be shot by them as he didn't think they were up to the job, and insisted on being shot by the Nazis instead as he felt that the Gestapo would do a better job. The Gestapo had no problems with shooting him, as he'd been a thorn in their side for years, but did say that it was really a French problem as they'd arrested him in the first place.

While the officials discussed this, Wintle sawed through the bars of his cell and escaped back to England.

I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried, folks. Real-life is an infinite source of adventure ideas... :)
You've got to admit it, chirine. You weren't a simple bureaucrat, you were an Eclipse! (http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Eclipse_Caste)

:D

And there are hardly many better influences than guys like Poul Anderson, from all I know about him. Obviously Gordon Dickson rates with him, too:).

The thing that surprises me most in real life are the people that claim real life is boring. I wonder whether they can imagine how much efforts governments have to invest in keeping it that way for them...:D
So, this guy? He sounds so over the top, it almost has to be true:p!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;861177
Yes! This! This is one of these books that I think should be on everyone's reading list. If one wants 'realism', then here we are.
"Swords and Glory" still got precedence, though:p!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;861183
And entrenching at night? Nah. We'd laager up the carts, put out stakes around the camp perimeter, and hope for the best. This worked in relatively 'civilized' area, but outside? Hah!

Wonderful stuff! Thank you!!! :)
I assume you'd entrench for the night in less civilised areas? Nothing to help the soldiers stop being unhappy about having to work like hordes of savages ready for a night raid;)!
Not that they'd ever be happy, but let's be realistic, they're not going to mutiny if it has saved their lives. Well, they're not going to, unless we assume instigators, lack of payment and/or sufficient food, stupid commanders, or other embarrassments!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 22, 2015, 12:58:05 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;861183
Wonderful stuff! Thank you!!! :)

I posted a short review of Fury (http://honorandintrigue.blogspot.com/2015/10/review-fury-war-in-europe-1450-1700.html) on my blog that includes a long list of factoids from my reading. A number of these will inform my campaign setting. Some were already included.

To take one example, ransom for officers was something I took from the Flashing Blades game. It is a major potential source of extra revenue for soldiers. And taking in account the fact that officers were usually nobles of some kind and thus had other sources of income beyond their salary as listed in FB, the ransom figures in FB looks to be in the right ball park for the generally accepted ransom in period of 1x annual income.
Quote from: AsenRG;861234
Bren, for the record, this book went on my "to read" list.
But there's one that takes precedence.

Swords and Glory Vol 1 (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/141869/The-Tekumel-Sourcebook--Swords--Glory-Vol-1) is on Drivethru, finally!
Perfectly understandable. Since I already own Vol. 1 and 2 of the old Gamescience boxed sets I did not need to wait.  :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on October 22, 2015, 01:08:21 PM
Some more questions:

Are clans controlled by a single individual or from something like a board of directors? Is it more diffuse than that, with something like the clan in city A being basically separate from the same clan in city B, with both aiming to increase the clans prestige but only overlapping where one city's interests take it to the other? If that is case, who decides which direction the clan as a whole takes if clan groups in two different cities have goals that are at odds?

Gambling is common from what I understand, with dice and gladiatorial games mentioned (not sure about cards). Is there sports and sports betting? Is gambling interpersonal or do some clans run betting parlors and/or sports books? Can you describe the gladiatorial games? Are there different types like in Rome?

Given that you and Gronan have really made short work of the "Tekumel is impossible for a new player to understand or play" canard, what in your experience was the hardest thing to grasp or understand? What have you seen players, whether new or experienced, stumble on? Spelling, grammar, and pronunciation aside, of course!;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 22, 2015, 01:14:02 PM
Quote from: Bren;861247
I posted a short review of Fury (http://honorandintrigue.blogspot.com/2015/10/review-fury-war-in-europe-1450-1700.html) on my blog that includes a long list of factoids from my reading. A number of these will inform my campaign setting. Some were already included.

Perfectly understandable. Since I already own Vol. 1 and 2 of the old Gamescience boxed sets I did not need to wait.  :)

I like your post:).

And well, both you and chirine don't need it, but this is great news for us newer players.

Quote from: Big Andy;861251

Given that you and Gronan have really made short work of the "Tekumel is impossible for a new player to understand or play" canard, what in your experience was the hardest thing to grasp or understand? What have you seen players, whether new or experienced, stumble on? Spelling, grammar, and pronunciation aside, of course!;)

I think the next biggest hurdle is the people telling the new players they can't get it in play, but let's say the next biggest;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 22, 2015, 02:24:42 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;861234

You've got to admit it, chirine. You weren't a simple bureaucrat, you were an Eclipse! (http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Eclipse_Caste)

The thing that surprises me most in real life are the people that claim real life is boring. I wonder whether they can imagine how much efforts governments have to invest in keeping it that way for them...:D
So, this guy? He sounds so over the top, it almost has to be true:p!

I assume you'd entrench for the night in less civilised areas? Nothing to help the soldiers stop being unhappy about having to work like hordes of savages ready for a night raid;)!
Not that they'd ever be happy, but let's be realistic, they're not going to mutiny if it has saved their lives. Well, they're not going to, unless we assume instigators, lack of payment and/or sufficient food, stupid commanders, or other embarrassments!


I've never played at of White Wolf's stuff, so I had to follow the link. Pretty accurate, I think. :)

I get most of my adventure ideas from real life / history, just like Phil did. Ask Gronan how many castle drains we crawled through. As for Col. Wintle; the British Army was (and may still be) full of such eccentrics. He's on the web, in a number of places. So is Gen. Adrian Carton De Wiaart, who's even more 'out there'.

Yes, we'd dig in when the locals were not aware of the benefits of civilization - and the ground was good. Good water, decent light slope for run-off, and no heights overlooking the camp.

Gen. Reynolds: "John, is this good ground?" Gen. Buford: "Yessir, it is." July 1st, 1864, at a place called Gettysburg.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 22, 2015, 02:26:03 PM
Quote from: Bren;861247
I posted a short review of Fury (http://honorandintrigue.blogspot.com/2015/10/review-fury-war-in-europe-1450-1700.html) on my blog that includes a long list of factoids from my reading. A number of these will inform my campaign setting. Some were already included.

To take one example, ransom for officers was something I took from the Flashing Blades game. It is a major potential source of extra revenue for soldiers. And taking in account the fact that officers were usually nobles of some kind and thus had other sources of income beyond their salary as listed in FB, the ransom figures in FB looks to be in the right ball park for the generally accepted ransom in period of 1x annual income.
Perfectly understandable. Since I already own Vol. 1 and 2 of the old Gamescience boxed sets I did not need to wait.  :)


Great post! Thank you!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 22, 2015, 02:37:32 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;861251
Some more questions:

Are clans controlled by a single individual or from something like a board of directors? Is it more diffuse than that, with something like the clan in city A being basically separate from the same clan in city B, with both aiming to increase the clans prestige but only overlapping where one city's interests take it to the other? If that is case, who decides which direction the clan as a whole takes if clan groups in two different cities have goals that are at odds?

Gambling is common from what I understand, with dice and gladiatorial games mentioned (not sure about cards). Is there sports and sports betting? Is gambling interpersonal or do some clans run betting parlors and/or sports books? Can you describe the gladiatorial games? Are there different types like in Rome?

Given that you and Gronan have really made short work of the "Tekumel is impossible for a new player to understand or play" canard, what in your experience was the hardest thing to grasp or understand? What have you seen players, whether new or experienced, stumble on? Spelling, grammar, and pronunciation aside, of course!;)


Thank you for your questions!

Clans - It's more like a board of directors. The clan elders in a particular location run the clan's affairs, and yes, it's diffuse. Each clan house in each different location is more or less independent of the others - the Vriddi are an exception to this - but they do get together every now and then for big conferences to discuss matters. These usually turn into big parties, and they also serve as the starting place for adventures of all kinds.

Gaming is very common. There's a card game from Livyanu, which is like poker with a tarot deck. Yes, there are sports like marotlan (football), with lots of betting, and you do get 'betting clans' that run gambling halls (dens, really) and also serve as GMs at parties. The gladiatorial shows start out with the comedy acts, then the demonstration teams from all over, with the judicial duels of all kinds as the top of the bill. There are different types of professional gladiator, showing off different types of weapons and styles; the judicial / honor duels are very strictly regulated, with both parties required to have their weapons equally matched. A magical duel is considered to be the height of entertainment, as they are both rare and spectacular.

Thanks for the kind words; it's true, though. I think the hardest thing we had to learn was the social interconnections - no 'murderhobos'. It's not something you see much in American society, at least for us back in the day.

And ignore the spelling, grammar, and pronunciation. This is an adventure, not language camp. You can pick that up later. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 22, 2015, 02:38:49 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;861254
I think the next biggest hurdle is the people telling the new players they can't get it in play, but let's say the next biggest;).


Yeah; this. I try... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 22, 2015, 08:32:48 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;861251
Some more questions:

Are clans controlled by a single individual or from something like a board of directors? Is it more diffuse than that, with something like the clan in city A being basically separate from the same clan in city B, with both aiming to increase the clans prestige but only overlapping where one city's interests take it to the other? If that is case, who decides which direction the clan as a whole takes if clan groups in two different cities have goals that are at odds?


Besides what Chirine said, I'd like to add "it depends."

When thinking about clans, don't think of them as corporations, or business concerns, or bureaucracies, or trade unions, though they have some elements of those.

First and foremost, a clan is an extended family.  It acquires those other functions as required.  But at its heart it is a family, and like any family the official structure is often at odds with the reality (see also War and Peace.)  Uncle Nekkuru isn't one of the "Elders," but nobody would dream of committing the clan to a trade deal without asking his advice... all very informal and casual, one evening while sipping the mash-fruit brandy, of course.  Not only would it be rude to not chat, but he knows who we can trust and who not to trust.

And "Auntie" Hekke is technically a slave.  But she's officially the Kitchen Steward, and if an energetic young lad in his early twenties wants a snack, a bit of flattery and a trinket or two will go a long way.  She won't believe a word of it, but what lady doesn't like flattery?

As for "what was the hardest to learn?"

Two things.  1)  This is a pre-Enlightenment culture... the "individual" is not the greatest good.  The good of the Clan, the Temple, and the Empire are more important than the individual.  Raised in the Midwest USA in the 1960s on Westerns on TV and movies, the "one lone rugged individual" was deeply ingrained.

2)  "Outsider" has a very broad definition.  Again, in the US we were raised being taught "all men are created equal," etc.  And every society has laws against murder, and theft, and etc.  But "murder" means killing a human being... and that's not a human being, that's a Milumaniyani.  The notion that ALL members of Homo sapiens sapiens Terrae are human beings with equal value of other human beings is a VERY late development in the history of the world.  That was ALSO hard to grasp.  It's why clans are SO important; your clan is your group, your "us," and you really can't trust anybody who isn't one of "us."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 22, 2015, 10:45:03 PM
Great points Gronan. I think the focus on group over individual is a very hard concept for any modern Western culture to really 'get' and the culture in the US skews much more towards the individual than even most Western cultures.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;861336
2)  "Outsider" has a very broad definition.  Again, in the US we were raised being taught "all men are created equal," etc.  And every society has laws against murder, and theft, and etc.  But "murder" means killing a human being... and that's not a human being, that's a Milumaniyani.  The notion that ALL members of Homo sapiens sapiens Terrae are human beings with equal value of other human beings is a VERY late development in the history of the world.  That was ALSO hard to grasp.  It's why clans are SO important; your clan is your group, your "us," and you really can't trust anybody who isn't one of "us."
I quoted this one section to set the context for another question for you and Chrine.

1) As I understand it, your PCs started out not only as outsiders to your clans but outsiders to Tsolyani culture. What was the process for becoming a member of a clan?

2) Were there various steps formal or informal?

3) How long did it take?

4) Was the process you two went through the same or different than what other PC/player dyads went through.

4) Given that you didn't grow up with your clan brothers/sisters why did they decide to trust you (assuming that they all did)?

5) How did you each select your clan - both from a PC POV and a player POV?

6) Or did the clan actually select you?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 22, 2015, 11:16:21 PM
One group of early PCs tried to make their own clan and get it "official" status.  I now realize how much of a refusal to engage Phil's entire premise this was.

Now, as for the Glorious General:

I did indeed start out as a foreigner washed up in Jakalla.  As I said earlier, Anka'a, Moose, and I guarded each other in the Foreigner's Quarters (you'll never find a more wretched hive of scum an villainy.)  At 3rd level you know enough to leave the FQ unescorted, so we could actually rent relatively safe digs.

I joined the Army at 3rd or 4th level.  The Army was my home for years.  I was in the Legion of Serqu, Sword of the Empire, a very ancient and prestigious legion.  Essentially, I tried my best for years to be a loyal Soldier of the Empire.  After enough years, General Serqu realized I was loyal, dogged, a fair dinkum tactician, and had absolutely no political leanings at all other than to the Petal Throne.  I had had enough successes to be "Mentioned in Dispatches" and had won THREE Golds of Glory.  I was offered command of my own Legion, membership in General Serqu's clan, Golden Sunburst (a VERY high and prestigious clan) AND Serqu's sister in marriage all at pretty much the same time.  I even asked Phil why.  He said simply that I was a Bright Young Hero (tm) and that it was obvious that I was headed for either a brilliant military career or a heroic death, and that clans liked having bright young sparks as ornaments to make them look good.  By that time we knew enough to speak on a more direct level.  He said in as many words "as long as you act heroic and loyal you make the clan look good."

I don't know how it went with other PCs.  A lot of "The Other Group" were Prince Mirusiya's "New Men" and got generalships and promotions and clans and stuff through politicing and ass kissing.

I started out as a cohort commander (Kasi), after about ... geez.. five or six real years I finally made it to Molkar, field commander of half a legion.  I was the "Mighty Molkar" for another three or four years before accidentally seducing Serqu's sister.

Serqu trusted me because my loyalty to the Legion was absolute... "General Serqu says 'fight,' and you fight" ... and I really, truly had NO ambition other than to be good soldier.  And when Uncle Serqu says this kid will be a bright shiny ornament for the clan, who are we to argue?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 23, 2015, 01:48:10 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;861336
Besides what Chirine said, I'd like to add "it depends."

When thinking about clans, don't think of them as corporations, or business concerns, or bureaucracies, or trade unions, though they have some elements of those.

First and foremost, a clan is an extended family.  It acquires those other functions as required.  But at its heart it is a family, and like any family the official structure is often at odds with the reality (see also War and Peace.)  Uncle Nekkuru isn't one of the "Elders," but nobody would dream of committing the clan to a trade deal without asking his advice... all very informal and casual, one evening while sipping the mash-fruit brandy, of course.  Not only would it be rude to not chat, but he knows who we can trust and who not to trust.

And "Auntie" Hekke is technically a slave.  But she's officially the Kitchen Steward, and if an energetic young lad in his early twenties wants a snack, a bit of flattery and a trinket or two will go a long way.  She won't believe a word of it, but what lady doesn't like flattery?

As for "what was the hardest to learn?"

Two things.  1)  This is a pre-Enlightenment culture... the "individual" is not the greatest good.  The good of the Clan, the Temple, and the Empire are more important than the individual.  Raised in the Midwest USA in the 1960s on Westerns on TV and movies, the "one lone rugged individual" was deeply ingrained.

2)  "Outsider" has a very broad definition.  Again, in the US we were raised being taught "all men are created equal," etc.  And every society has laws against murder, and theft, and etc.  But "murder" means killing a human being... and that's not a human being, that's a Milumaniyani.  The notion that ALL members of Homo sapiens sapiens Terrae are human beings with equal value of other human beings is a VERY late development in the history of the world.  That was ALSO hard to grasp.  It's why clans are SO important; your clan is your group, your "us," and you really can't trust anybody who isn't one of "us."


This, on all points. Tekumel is all about nuance, in a lot of ways.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 23, 2015, 02:17:22 AM
Quote from: Bren;861368
I quoted this one section to set the context for another question for you and Chrine.


Your questions in underlined italics, if that's all right.

1) As I understand it, your PCs started out not only as outsiders to your clans but outsiders to Tsolyani culture. What was the process for becoming a member of a clan?

I started out as a Tsolyani, but from the Chakas. This was because I surprised Phil - shocked him, I think - when I picked the lineage name ba Kal. 'ba' is a very rare locative prefix for names, and figures in only one other lineage in Phil's work: Firu ba Yeker, of the Clan of the Uttermost Secret. So, Phil told me that I was a Chakan. As such, I was a member of a clan, the small but respectable Eye of Flame, since I'm a Vimhula worshipper. I'm still a Tsolyani, just not a 'native' of the central Empire. I do have an accent, which marks me instantly as a Chakan.

Jim Danielson and Rick Bjugen, the other founders of the original Thursday Night Group, had their PCs 'grandfathered' in from Craig Smith's campaign at Fifth Precinct, so they also started out with clans. Later players in our group were simply given clans by Phil.

I did 'move over' into a different clan much later in the campaign, Iron Helm, but that was for political reasons and was ordered by Prince Mirusiya. More on that in a bit.

The process was pretty simple; you had to know somebody, and they'd refer you to a clan; the clan would look you over, see if they thought you were worth it, and 'adopt' you. You were expected to make a nice gift to the clan, and 'pay dues' - a portion of your personal income would always go to the clan.

2) Were there various steps formal or informal?

The informal part were the socializing and 'interviews' where they got to know you. If you passed these, then there would be paperwork to file with the Imperium and a big party to throw. It's pretty simple, and pretty straightforward. The tough part is convincing the clan that you're worth having.

3) How long did it take?

Anywhere from a month to a year, depending on how high the clan was. The high-status clans really ask a lot of questions, do 'background checks' and want to know all about you before they'll let you in.

4a) Was the process you two went through the same or different than what other PC/player dyads went through.

Very different for the two of us, as we came in at different times. Later players had it a lot easier, as Phil usually gave them clans to speed things up in the campaign. He did pull a surprise on Kathy - he gave her a lineage and clan, but told me not to tell her what they meant until he could surprise her with them. (Or Else; and he meant it, too.)

4b) Given that you didn't grow up with your clan brothers/sisters why did they decide to trust you (assuming that they all did)?

I grew up with my original clan; the Iron Helm people trusted me because I had a proven track record, and the 'suggestion' by an Imperial Prince that I was worthy of being in their clan.

5) How did you each select your clan - both from a PC POV and a player POV?

No choice, in my case; Phil simply told me.

6) Or did the clan actually select you?

Well, Eye of Flame was pretty obvious, and Phil liked the notion. Iron Helm was when I got a promotion from Imperial Errand-boy And Exterminator Of People Who Are Imperial Problems to Imperial Governor And Saver Of Imperial Butts; the Prince thought I should get a really nice promotion in clans to match. Phil rolled the dice, and told me what was happening. I smiled, kept my mouth shut, and said "Yes, of course, Highborn! To hear is to obey, Highborn!" I gave a nice gift to Iron Helm for it, and also to Eye of Flame for their understanding. (I still make donations to both, as it's considered 'noble action' on my part to do so.) I was also made a Lord in the process, enabling me to dress a little better and get called fancier names.

I'm sorry that I'm not typical of the PCs; Gronan is probably a better example of how Phil did things in the early days. After the groups split, he 'grandfathered' in a lot of people that he wanted to have in the group, like Gronan, and so tended to elevate new PCs to a roughly equivalent status.

Does this help at all? (Like I say, I worry...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on October 23, 2015, 08:02:35 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;861386

Does this help at all? (Like I say, I worry...)


It is very interesting to know the why and how.
While stories are excellent, they are not as helpful as knowing the logic behind them.
The logic provides a framework for future gaming.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 23, 2015, 09:00:16 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;861386
Does this help at all? (Like I say, I worry...)

Yes, very helpful thanks. Also, don't worry. Be happy. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 23, 2015, 01:58:23 PM
Quote from: Bren;861432
don't worry. Be happy. :)


Blam!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 23, 2015, 05:12:50 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;861482
Blam!

Ah ha! So you're the one who shot the sheriff.



I shot the deputy.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 24, 2015, 09:19:40 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;861427
It is very interesting to know the why and how.
While stories are excellent, they are not as helpful as knowing the logic behind them.
The logic provides a framework for future gaming.
=


Sounds good. Phil was not always logical; the thing grew more or less organically, but when there's some logic I'll try to make sure I include it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 24, 2015, 09:22:05 PM
Quote from: Bren;861513
Ah ha! So you're the one who shot the sheriff.



I shot the deputy.


And here I thought it was all a Firesign Theater reference... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 25, 2015, 07:35:33 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;861692
And here I thought it was all a Firesign Theater reference... :)
Out of the fog...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 25, 2015, 01:20:59 PM
Look!  The pyramid is opening!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 26, 2015, 11:18:54 AM
Hello Gents,

I hope you all are well. I was just wondering what were the the facts and circumstances when PC's ended up in a Mexican jail? How did they react being in a strange land? What was the reason, if any that the Professor sent them there? How did they overcome the language barrier(unless they had their little orbs)? What time period was it?

Thanks,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Atsuku Nare on October 26, 2015, 11:23:16 AM
A metaphysics question this time:

To my understanding, Tekumel's "magic" isn't magic as customarily known in RPGs, but more like either psychic phenomena and/or manipulation of other-dimensional energies.

Did the Humanspace star-empires have these abilities? Or did they only begin to manifest once Tekumel was dumped into the pocket universe?

I.E. did the first spell-casters on Tekumel find something new, or were they rediscovering the wheel, so to speak?

Thanks! This thread rocks!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 26, 2015, 02:25:07 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;861910
Hello Gents,

I hope you all are well. I was just wondering what were the the facts and circumstances when PC's ended up in a Mexican jail? How did they react being in a strange land? What was the reason, if any that the Professor sent them there? How did they overcome the language barrier(unless they had their little orbs)? What time period was it?

Thanks,

H :0)

This was the 1990s group, during one of their mighty epics of plane-spanning adventure - I think it was part of their 'Hero of the Age' story line. Phil thought it would be funny to toss them in the clink in revolutionary Mexico. Information on the incident is very scarce; for some reason, the players seem unwilling to talk about it. It was pre WWI, I've been told.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 26, 2015, 02:34:49 PM
Quote from: Atsuku Nare;861912
A metaphysics question this time:

To my understanding, Tekumel's "magic" isn't magic as customarily known in RPGs, but more like either psychic phenomena and/or manipulation of other-dimensional energies.

Did the Humanspace star-empires have these abilities? Or did they only begin to manifest once Tekumel was dumped into the pocket universe?

I.E. did the first spell-casters on Tekumel find something new, or were they rediscovering the wheel, so to speak?

Thanks! This thread rocks!

You are correct; what we refer to on Tekumel as 'magic' is use of the ancient technologies. This very basic difference has been a major problem for RPG players over the decades, as the 'magic' in the classic RPGs has all been based on the supernatural.

The Lords of Humanspace used machines and objects such as the 'Eyes' to use the energies of The Planes Beyond to make things happen. They did not use 'magic', in any sense. They did do a lot of selective breeding to enhance certain abilities in their servants, such as what we see in the Nom, the Nylss, and the natural telepaths of the Lost City of Bayarsha and the Nyemsel Isles.

After Tekumel (and the other 772 worlds) were cast into the pocket dimension, researchers found that the 'skin' of reality between the worlds was very weak, and energies could be accessed by 'spells' and the like. So, yes, you are correct - they were rediscovering the wheel. They had the devices of the ancients to hand, could see what they produced for effects, and worked out alternate ways to reproduce these same effects.

'Wetware', instead of 'hardware', if you will.

All this is classic 1940s and 1950s F/SF, by the way. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Atsuku Nare on October 27, 2015, 08:23:00 AM
Interesting!

Did your adventures ever carry you to any of the other 772 worlds? Did Phil bother to detail any of them?

Were the other worlds each in their own pocket dimension (making 773 total pocket dimensions), or did they exist along side one another? That would be one hell of an interesting solar system with all those planets whizzing about! :)

Speaking of things astronomical, does Tekumel have any moons? And are there any other planets in its system, ripe for exploration (or not)?

Once again, thanks for the detail! You and Gronan really make the setting come alive!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 27, 2015, 08:39:45 AM
We may have covered this but, what caused Tekumel to be shifted From Humanspace into Bethorm(The Twenty protecting it from The Pariah Dieties,or the manipulation of the other planer energies, or both)? Or Is it truely know as to why?

Thanks,

H :0)

PS  Atsuku Nare   got my cogs moving...Forgive me if I have you Gentlemen repeating yourselves, but my memory is sometimes short...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on October 27, 2015, 01:40:20 PM
Quote from: Atsuku Nare;862010

Speaking of things astronomical, does Tekumel have any moons? And are there any other planets in its system, ripe for exploration (or not)?

That one I can answer ... Yes!
I even recall there reports of an excursion to a base on one of the moons.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 27, 2015, 02:27:59 PM
Quote from: Atsuku Nare;862010
Interesting!

Did your adventures ever carry you to any of the other 772 worlds? Did Phil bother to detail any of them?

Were the other worlds each in their own pocket dimension (making 773 total pocket dimensions), or did they exist along side one another? That would be one hell of an interesting solar system with all those planets whizzing about! :)

Speaking of things astronomical, does Tekumel have any moons? And are there any other planets in its system, ripe for exploration (or not)?

Once again, thanks for the detail! You and Gronan really make the setting come alive!


Yes. We visited several of them. The main one was some dingy little town on a bay that the locals called 'Blackmoor'. We also went to a much nicer place, where the locals were a little odd, but the food was good; the locals called it 'Barsoom'. There was also a places called 'Greyhawk' and 'Lankhmar', but we didn't go there.

Each of the 772 worlds exists in a separate pocket dimension, and can be visited by reaching through the Planes Beyond. Back in those days, it was very common for players to visit other campaigns and authors' worlds, and Phil took that up with gusto.

Tekumel has two moons, Kashi and Gayel. Kashi is the Ancients' planetary defense fortress; please do not push any buttons. Tuleng's system has five planets, and some of these have their own collections of moons. Some of the old in-system ships still work, if you can find one, so many of these places can be visited. Not lived on, but visited if you stay in the ship...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 27, 2015, 02:29:49 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;862011
We may have covered this but, what caused Tekumel to be shifted From Humanspace into Bethorm(The Twenty protecting it from The Pariah Dieties,or the manipulation of the other planer energies, or both)? Or Is it truely know as to why?

Thanks,

H :0)

PS  Atsuku Nare   got my cogs moving...Forgive me if I have you Gentlemen repeating yourselves, but my memory is sometimes short...


Both and neither. It's A Mystery. :)

(Scroll back up the thread. As Phil once said, yes, we do know about this, but let's just play, shall we?)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 27, 2015, 02:31:27 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;862032
That one I can answer ... Yes!
I even recall there reports of an excursion to a base on one of the moons.
=


Yep. Don't cast spells while standing on the metal deck. Bad things happen. We did have a good time rubbernecking and generally playing awed tourists.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on October 29, 2015, 08:09:56 AM
While I'm sure that Suu and Hlyss have hierarchies what about the "creatures"?

For example do Qol or Chnelh "work" for others?
When you encounter them, what are the odds that there is another stronger threat behind them?

Not counting them worshiping some horror of course.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Atsuku Nare on October 29, 2015, 09:25:56 AM
So Chirine, can you tell us more about the Undying Wizards?

Are they individuals who have the most mastery of "magic" on Tekumel? Or did they just stumble into a heap of Ancient tech that enforces their will? Or both?

Are they considered evil, in that what they're up to is generally harmful to Tekumel and its people? Or are they more self-centered with more inscrutable goals?

And did you ever meet or oppose any of them?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 29, 2015, 02:36:56 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;862249
While I'm sure that Suu and Hlyss have hierarchies what about the "creatures"?

For example do Qol or Chnelh "work" for others?
When you encounter them, what are the odds that there is another stronger threat behind them?

Not counting them worshiping some horror of course.
=


Yes. Both are the product of the Temple of Ksarul, and you'll usually find the Priests behind them - much more with the former then the latter, as the Qol are sapient life-forms and tend to be used as 'shock troops' and guards in Underworlds. The apes, not being particularly sentient, are much more of a 'fire and forget' hazard - think living land mines. Normally, if we ran into Qol, we expected lots more trouble to show up if they could get a messenger off.

I really like the Qol, as a GM. They are very good at what they do, and are very resourceful opponents; they can use some magic, which makes them even more formidable.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 29, 2015, 02:47:19 PM
Quote from: Atsuku Nare;862253
So Chirine, can you tell us more about the Undying Wizards?

Are they individuals who have the most mastery of "magic" on Tekumel? Or did they just stumble into a heap of Ancient tech that enforces their will? Or both?

Are they considered evil, in that what they're up to is generally harmful to Tekumel and its people? Or are they more self-centered with more inscrutable goals?

And did you ever meet or oppose any of them?


Sure. Some are pretty decent, others are mad as hatters and should be avoided like the proverbial plague. (Nyelmu, for example.)

The 'Undying' are humans who, through the luck of the genetic draw, simply don't die of old age. They can be hurt or killed, but they simply grow to a point in life and then stop aging. Some of them are magic-users, and these are the 'Undying Wizards'. They are very good at sorcery and the ancient technology, simply because they've been at it and learning about it for centuries.

They are not a unified group, and generally neither 'good' or 'evil'. Some want to restore Tekumel to human space, some don't. Some are welcome allies, and some are real pains in the butt to have to deal with. They are very self-centered, very skilled, and some are very arrogant. (Pretty mixed lot, really.) They all have their own goals and objectives, and their own specialties. There's a lot of rivalry and one-upmanship that goes on, too.

Yes. We met quite a few of them. We worked for Thomar, fought Nyelmu, got advice and help from Subadim,and had Turshanmu as a party member and Severe Hazard To Navigation off and on for quite a while. My namesake also showed up once or twice to lend me a hand in sticky situations.

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Atsuku Nare on October 29, 2015, 07:02:44 PM
It helps immensely!

So it sounds like on an average day, you might have to deal with your clan trying to marry you off in a political union with a woman you detest, your temple needing you to find out what happened to their lost pilgrimage in the underworld which may have been torn apart by weird demons, your military command ordering you to suppress a revolt three provinces away, assassins dropping in from when you accidentally insulted a high-ranking someone, undying wizards who have to be stopped *right now* from moving Tekumel back to Humanspace, silver men appearing out of nowhere to raid valuables, and finally you trip going down the stairs and land in a tubeway car that takes you to the opposite side of the planet. And that was after you accidentally drank the water downstream from the chlen herd.

Have I missed anything?  :)

I am endlessly fascinated by your (and Gronan's) stories, and I can't wait to read the books you're writing!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Atsuku Nare on October 29, 2015, 07:11:49 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;862275
The 'Undying' are humans who, through the luck of the genetic draw, simply don't die of old age. They can be hurt or killed, but they simply grow to a point in life and then stop aging. Some of them are magic-users, and these are the 'Undying Wizards'. They are very good at sorcery and the ancient technology, simply because they've been at it and learning about it for centuries.


Interesting. Is there any chance for a PC to win this genetic draw? Or is the only way you'd find out be by just *living* too long, which is probably beyond the scope of normal play?

Do you think they were wizards before becoming Undying? Or did they turn to tech + wizardry when they suddenly realized they had all the time in the world, and anything else would be boring?

(Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them took up art or music as well, in the style of Michael Moorcock's Corum's people, where they might spend thirty years on a single piece of music, only to discard it when it annoyed them or became boring to work on.)

Do the Undying have any interactions with each other? Beyond hiring adventurers to foil each other's plans occasionally. Is there somewhere a secret "council" of the Undying who meet to plot Tekumel's fate? And do they police their own when one goes a little _too_ far off the rails?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 29, 2015, 08:43:22 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;862275
Sure. Some are pretty decent, others are mad as hatters and should be avoided like the proverbial plague. (Nyelmu, for example.)

The 'Undying' are humans who, through the luck of the genetic draw, simply don't die of old age. They can be hurt or killed, but they simply grow to a point in life and then stop aging. Some of them are magic-users, and these are the 'Undying Wizards'. They are very good at sorcery and the ancient technology, simply because they've been at it and learning about it for centuries.

They are not a unified group, and generally neither 'good' or 'evil'. Some want to restore Tekumel to human space, some don't. Some are welcome allies, and some are real pains in the butt to have to deal with. They are very self-centered, very skilled, and some are very arrogant. (Pretty mixed lot, really.) They all have their own goals and objectives, and their own specialties. There's a lot of rivalry and one-upmanship that goes on, too.

Yes. We met quite a few of them. We worked for Thomar, fought Nyelmu, got advice and help from Subadim,and had Turshanmu as a party member and Severe Hazard To Navigation off and on for quite a while. My namesake also showed up once or twice to lend me a hand in sticky situations.

Does this help?


Any resemblance to Rialto the Marvelous and other high-level wizards of Dying Earth is entirely non-coincidental...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 30, 2015, 02:55:58 AM
Quote from: Atsuku Nare;862312
It helps immensely!

So it sounds like on an average day, you might have to deal with your clan trying to marry you off in a political union with a woman you detest, your temple needing you to find out what happened to their lost pilgrimage in the underworld which may have been torn apart by weird demons, your military command ordering you to suppress a revolt three provinces away, assassins dropping in from when you accidentally insulted a high-ranking someone, undying wizards who have to be stopped *right now* from moving Tekumel back to Humanspace, silver men appearing out of nowhere to raid valuables, and finally you trip going down the stairs and land in a tubeway car that takes you to the opposite side of the planet. And that was after you accidentally drank the water downstream from the chlen herd.

Have I missed anything?  :)

I am endlessly fascinated by your (and Gronan's) stories, and I can't wait to read the books you're writing!


You left out the politics of the Imperial succession, the disputes between Temples over 'turf' in the Underworld, and accidentally starting a war with the next-door country. Other then that, sounds just like the first four or five years of gaming we did with Phil.

And people wonder why we concentrated on simple survival. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 30, 2015, 03:03:15 AM
Quote from: Atsuku Nare;862317
Interesting. Is there any chance for a PC to win this genetic draw? Or is the only way you'd find out be by just *living* too long, which is probably beyond the scope of normal play?

Do you think they were wizards before becoming Undying? Or did they turn to tech + wizardry when they suddenly realized they had all the time in the world, and anything else would be boring?

(Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them took up art or music as well, in the style of Michael Moorcock's Corum's people, where they might spend thirty years on a single piece of music, only to discard it when it annoyed them or became boring to work on.)

Do the Undying have any interactions with each other? Beyond hiring adventurers to foil each other's plans occasionally. Is there somewhere a secret "council" of the Undying who meet to plot Tekumel's fate? And do they police their own when one goes a little _too_ far off the rails?


There's nothing in any of Phil's rules abut this, so I'd say that it would be a 'referee's special'. And yes, the only way one would probably find this out would be to outlive everyone - which is not going to happen in a game campaign, even one as long as ours was.

Yes, I think so. Back in the very distant past, of course.

This could very well be - we just don't know, as anybody like this is not advertising their existence. I do know of one Undying person who is not a wizard, but that's A Really Big Secret. (Got it from an interview with Phil, the summer before he passed away.)

They do, but it's all through minions. They seem to have an 'unspoken agreement' not to attack each other directly, but there's no secret council - none of them could agree on anything, anyway. The College At The End Of Time is held to be 'neutral territory', and that's about the only restraint that any of them show. Nyelmu was the sole exception - that we know about, anyway - and that was the doing of the Gods. All of them; nobody likes Nyelmu.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 30, 2015, 03:05:21 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;862332
Any resemblance to Rialto the Marvelous and other high-level wizards of Dying Earth is entirely non-coincidental...


Might this have something to do with Phil and Jack Vance being friends, starting in the late '40s and into the '50s? Phil was the one who drew the first published map of The Dying Earth for Vance, by the way.

:)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 30, 2015, 03:18:26 AM
Quote from: Atsuku Nare;862312
I am endlessly fascinated by your (and Gronan's) stories, and I can't wait to read the books you're writing!


Well, I'm looking forward to his book as well; Jon Peterson's book was very good - I knew a lot of the people he mentions - it's also kind of 'academic'. Gronan's book promises to be more personal, which I think is a good thing; a lot of the major personalities in the hobby at the beginning have become somewhat obscured by the mythology that's grown up around them over the decades.

I am hoping you'll be amused by my little effort. I am taking a different approach, and telling you about our adventures as if you were sitting in the marketplace listening to a storyteller spin you yarns about brave soldiers, fearsome pirates, mighty dragons, strange aliens, powerful wizards, distant lands, mysterious ruins, and beautiful princesses - who are for those of you who are not interested in pirates. (And this ancient joke exactly 'gets' the spirit of the thing.) I think we hit every trope known, with Phil's own take on them; his 'damsels in distress' usually don't need the help. :)

People seem to like the thing, what with all of our adventures and antics, and that's what I'm hoping to accomplish - to tell you of how we spent over a decade listening to an amazing storyteller tell us tales of wonder and awe.

The Little Girl, rolling up the sleeves of her tunic: "Yours is a very big story, my Uncle; I will need both hands to tell it." (From "To Serve The Petal Throne", Book Six - 'To The Distant Shores')
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on October 30, 2015, 08:14:59 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;862364

The Little Girl, rolling up the sleeves of her tunic: "Yours is a very big story, my Uncle; I will need both hands to tell it." (From "To Serve The Petal Throne", Book Six - 'To The Distant Shores')

:popcorn:
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 31, 2015, 11:34:47 AM
Gentelmen,

Happy All Hallows Eve. Just a quick question. During your adventures did you ever encounter NPCs with nonhuman minions or allies? I'm thinking of the more inimical types such as the Hlutrgu or others. I could see humans under the "control" of the Suu, but is it unheard of for unholy unions to be on more equal footing(at least in the NPC's mind)?

I know I can have my PCs encounter an evil wizard with a few Hlutrgu minions in my Tekumel. I was just wondering if anything like this went on in the olden days in the Professor's games.

Thanks,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 31, 2015, 12:59:39 PM
I was supposed to take my children out trick or treating today, until I found out I have to work...I was going to wear this in honor of the Horokaingai, those fanatical worshipers of Vhimula that stayed loyal to Ksarul at the battle of Dormoron Plain and carried his banners into the frey...Eventhough their God switched sides...(of course this is what they wear on my Tekumel)!!!



Happy Halloween!!!

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 31, 2015, 11:41:52 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;862549
Gentelmen,

Happy All Hallows Eve. Just a quick question. During your adventures did you ever encounter NPCs with nonhuman minions or allies? I'm thinking of the more inimical types such as the Hlutrgu or others. I could see humans under the "control" of the Suu, but is it unheard of for unholy unions to be on more equal footing(at least in the NPC's mind)?

I know I can have my PCs encounter an evil wizard with a few Hlutrgu minions in my Tekumel. I was just wondering if anything like this went on in the olden days in the Professor's games.

Thanks,

H :0)


Yes; Thomar's Thunru'u butler / major-domo is a good example. ("Eyethpoons, Lord; you forgot your set of eyethpoons." He had a lisp.) Non-humans were frequently hired in as guards, assistants, and experts as needed. However, Phil was pretty firm on keeping this limited to the 'friendly' or 'neutral' races; the Ssu and the Hlyss were Right Out.

Nobody had Mihalli - Phil held that they were just too alien in their thought processes. There were Mihalli in-game that were part of our parties, but that was because what we were doing at the time was something that they were interested in; Harchar's supposedly human 'cabin boy' was an example of this. Once they had what they wanted, they were off and gone.

(One fan, back in the very early days, wrote Phil to tell him that his PC has met and befriended a Mihalli, and was using him as an NPC minion; he wanted Phil to buy into this and Officially Approve it, and Phil simply said no; do what you want in your campaign, but it's not happening in mine.)

The Nyagga, up in Lake Parunal, are possible to deal with, but as they are entirely an aquatic people they don't get out much.


The nasty little Hlutrgu are a special case; nobody likes 'em, nobody wants to have them around, and they love us humans just the same way. Of all the races of Tekumel, their civilization took the deepest dive, and they're still at about a Stone Age level. I can see some really nasty and creepy sorcerer using them as 'minions' for some nefarious plot, using some pretty powerful spells to keep the little rubbery creeps under some kind of control. (Of course, if they ever get out of control, there's going to be one very unhappy Evil Mastermind.) If they all get caught or found out, then they'll get some very unpleasant and very personal attention from people like me and the rest of the Imperium - and anyone else who finds out about this.

I assume your sorcerer is using an assumed name, or something... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 31, 2015, 11:45:26 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;862552
I was supposed to take my children out trick or treating today, until I found out I have to work...I was going to wear this in honor of the Horokaingai, those fanatical worshipers of Vhimula that stayed loyal to Ksarul at the battle of Dormoron Plain and carried his banners into the frey...Eventhough their God switched sides...(of course this is what they wear on my Tekumel)!!!

Happy Halloween!!!

H :0)


According to the Horokaingai, Lord Vimuhla is a 'slacker' and a 'short-hitter'. (The phrase 'party-pooper' has also been used.) While they are devoted worshippers of the Flame, they do have pretty high expectations and might just be a whole lot more fanatic in the bargain. I overlook this attitude a lot in my dealings with them... :)

Very nice!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 01, 2015, 04:09:43 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;862597
Yes; Thomar's Thunru'u butler / major-domo is a good example. ("Eyethpoons, Lord; you forgot your set of eyethpoons." He had a lisp.) Non-humans were frequently hired in as guards, assistants, and experts as needed. However, Phil was pretty firm on keeping this limited to the 'friendly' or 'neutral' races; the Ssu and the Hlyss were Right Out.

Nobody had Mihalli - Phil held that they were just too alien in their thought processes. There were Mihalli in-game that were part of our parties, but that was because what we were doing at the time was something that they were interested in; Harchar's supposedly human 'cabin boy' was an example of this. Once they had what they wanted, they were off and gone.

(One fan, back in the very early days, wrote Phil to tell him that his PC has met and befriended a Mihalli, and was using him as an NPC minion; he wanted Phil to buy into this and Officially Approve it, and Phil simply said no; do what you want in your campaign, but it's not happening in mine.)

The Nyagga, up in Lake Parunal, are possible to deal with, but as they are entirely an aquatic people they don't get out much.


The nasty little Hlutrgu are a special case; nobody likes 'em, nobody wants to have them around, and they love us humans just the same way. Of all the races of Tekumel, their civilization took the deepest dive, and they're still at about a Stone Age level. I can see some really nasty and creepy sorcerer using them as 'minions' for some nefarious plot, using some pretty powerful spells to keep the little rubbery creeps under some kind of control. (Of course, if they ever get out of control, there's going to be one very unhappy Evil Mastermind.) If they all get caught or found out, then they'll get some very unpleasant and very personal attention from people like me and the rest of the Imperium - and anyone else who finds out about this.

I assume your sorcerer is using an assumed name, or something... :)


I was going to say I have yet to come up with a name for said evil wizard...but I came across a word to use as his nickname...Bussan...as to his real identity or who is really behind his nefarious deeds...we shall see, we shall see!!!

I plan on having him be a reoccuring pain in the PC's butts...growing with them in power as they go about Bethorm(unless they quickly eliminate him). Thanks.

Take care,

H ;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 01, 2015, 05:37:26 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;862660
I was going to say I have yet to come up with a name for said evil wizard...but I came across a word to use as his nickname...Bussan...as to his real identity or who is really behind his nefarious deeds...we shall see, we shall see!!!

I plan on having him be a reoccuring pain in the PC's butts...growing with them in power as they go about Bethorm(unless they quickly eliminate him). Thanks.

Take care,

H ;0)


You could always call him "Necross the (Ha Ha Ha!) Mad."

Ah, the day I made dear Steve Lortz fall out of his chair...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 01, 2015, 09:15:37 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;862673
You could always call him "Necross the (Ha Ha Ha!) Mad."

Ah, the day I made dear Steve Lortz fall out of his chair...


GloriousG,

Can you please elaborate a bit...!?!? I think we will enjoy this...Thanks.

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on November 02, 2015, 01:51:34 PM
This is an interesting thing that was just made available.
https://drive.google.com/file/...WjlCTzk4QkZXTk0/view
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 02, 2015, 02:08:13 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;862752
This is an interesting thing that was just made available.
https://drive.google.com/file/...WjlCTzk4QkZXTk0/view
=


What might this be? I clicked on the link, and it comes back 'file does not exist'. O'course, my browser is old enough, it might not be able to deal with this... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on November 02, 2015, 08:15:14 PM
It was a sample that would make an excellent handout, that has been pulled it seems.

It was part of the disscussion here:
Thread: Objectively, Is Tekumel Really That Inaccessable? (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?765782-Objectively-Is-Tekumel-Really-That-Inaccessable)
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 03, 2015, 02:20:47 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;862795
It was a sample that would make an excellent handout, that has been pulled it seems.

It was part of the disscussion here:
Thread: Objectively, Is Tekumel Really That Inaccessable? (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?765782-Objectively-Is-Tekumel-Really-That-Inaccessable)
=


What an interesting thread! I have now read through the whole thing - this is where my absurd reading speed comes into play - and I left a little note on the tail end of the thread.

I id manage to follow the link, too; nice bit of work, it is.

And thank you for quoting my 'Helium' comment, too! I think Phil would have been very pleased! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: SineNomine on November 03, 2015, 02:01:24 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;862795
It was a sample that would make an excellent handout, that has been pulled it seems.
Oh, it's still there- the URL just seems to have gotten clipped. The sample gazetteer is at:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4qCWY8UnLrcWjlCTzk4QkZXTk0/view?usp=sharing
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 03, 2015, 10:55:23 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;862696
GloriousG,

Can you please elaborate a bit...!?!? I think we will enjoy this...Thanks.

H :0)


   While working for AGI, I managed one of the few times in my life to surprise Dave.  We were playtesting Dave’s rewrite of “City of the Gods” for Blackmoor, and I’d been asked to join in as a “high level evil wizard.”  I agreed and dubbed my character “Necross the (Ha Ha Ha!) Mad,” after the character in Dave Sim’s popular “Cerebus the Aardvark” comic.  And yes, his name was not “Necross” or “Necross the Mad,” it was “Necross the (Ha Ha Ha!) Mad.”
   I really don’t remember the adventure except for one moment.  There was a “metal wall” with a lever sticking out of it.  We had found trap after trap in this place; buttons that activated automated defenses, switches that powered up security robots, etc.  Dave said, “I think Necross should pull the lever.”
   “No way, short, grey, furry one!” I said, in keeping with the Cerebus theme.  (Dave’s character was neither short, grey, nor furry, and neither was Dave.)
   “Why not?” said Dave, puzzled.
   “Because I am Necross the (Ha Ha Ha!) Mad, not Necross the (Ha Ha Ha!) STUPID!”
   It was ten minutes before the referee, Steve Lortz, could breathe again.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 04, 2015, 12:50:04 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;862985
   While working for AGI, I managed one of the few times in my life to surprise Dave.  We were playtesting Dave’s rewrite of “City of the Gods” for Blackmoor, and I’d been asked to join in as a “high level evil wizard.”  I agreed and dubbed my character “Necross the (Ha Ha Ha!) Mad,” after the character in Dave Sim’s popular “Cerebus the Aardvark” comic.  And yes, his name was not “Necross” or “Necross the Mad,” it was “Necross the (Ha Ha Ha!) Mad.”
   I really don’t remember the adventure except for one moment.  There was a “metal wall” with a lever sticking out of it.  We had found trap after trap in this place; buttons that activated automated defenses, switches that powered up security robots, etc.  Dave said, “I think Necross should pull the lever.”
   “No way, short, grey, furry one!” I said, in keeping with the Cerebus theme.  (Dave’s character was neither short, grey, nor furry, and neither was Dave.)
   “Why not?” said Dave, puzzled.
   “Because I am Necross the (Ha Ha Ha!) Mad, not Necross the (Ha Ha Ha!) STUPID!”
   It was ten minutes before the referee, Steve Lortz, could breathe again.


Ahh, Cerebus!!! I've never read the comic. He seems like he would make a good "Demon" encounter in Bethorm after being summoned from the planes beyond.

More money to spend. My wife should be happy about that...Thanks.

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on November 07, 2015, 08:01:01 AM
When you first started playing, how often did the cultural differences, such a group before individual, impact play?

How did the Midwestern American expectation of "Being a Hero" clash with the Tsolyani expectations?

Was there a transition or did you get the difference from the very first?

Was "Party Loot" extended to include the Clan naturally or was there initial resistance?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 07, 2015, 01:37:26 PM
Quote from: SineNomine;862878
Oh, it's still there- the URL just seems to have gotten clipped. The sample gazetteer is at:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4qCWY8UnLrcWjlCTzk4QkZXTk0/view?usp=sharing


Dear Karakan, that turned into a train wreck.

Complete with somebody insisting that Tsolyani words HAD to be used.

Amusingly, I never ONCE heard Phil actually use the word "kuruthuni".  I guess we'll have to have a seance to tell the old coot he was playing his own game wrong.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 07, 2015, 02:35:48 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;863443
Dear Karakan, that turned into a train wreck.

Complete with somebody insisting that Tsolyani words HAD to be used.

Amusingly, I never ONCE heard Phil actually use the word "kuruthuni".  I guess we'll have to have a seance to tell the old coot he was playing his own game wrong.


That's an interesting forum over there. I was reading the thread yesterday. It was up to 26 or so pages. I looked this morning and it was back to 25 pages. Some of the posts I read vanished(maybe into a pocket universe)!?!? Weird. What I read didn't seem too out there. Oh well, so be it.

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 07, 2015, 02:54:39 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;863443
Dear Karakan, that turned into a train wreck.

Complete with somebody insisting that Tsolyani words HAD to be used.

Amusingly, I never ONCE heard Phil actually use the word "kuruthuni".  I guess we'll have to have a seance to tell the old coot he was playing his own game wrong.

Yeah, even I found the linguistic insistence weird. And I'm the guy that finds S&G an entertaining reading, and reads encyclopaedia entries for campaign inspiration.

Quote from: Hrugga;863452
That's an interesting forum over there. I was reading the thread yesterday. It was up to 26 or so pages. I looked this morning and it was back to 25 pages. Some of the posts I read vanished(maybe into a pocket universe)!?!? Weird. What I read didn't seem too out there. Oh well, so be it.

H :0)


They lost about 15 hours of posts.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 08, 2015, 01:48:12 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;863037
Ahh, Cerebus!!! I've never read the comic. He seems like he would make a good "Demon" encounter in Bethorm after being summoned from the planes beyond.

More money to spend. My wife should be happy about that...Thanks.

H :0)


And I still have my miniature of him, too, so you can imagine who my players occasionally run into... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 08, 2015, 01:56:49 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;863391
When you first started playing, how often did the cultural differences, such a group before individual, impact play?

How did the Midwestern American expectation of "Being a Hero" clash with the Tsolyani expectations?

Was there a transition or did you get the difference from the very first?

Was "Party Loot" extended to include the Clan naturally or was there initial resistance?
=


Well, let's see...

First, the major thing for most of us was the cultural difference between Midwestern America and the whole notion of a non-traditional, non-Western world setting. We'd never seen anything like it, really.

For us, I don't think we had 'being a hero' as one of our expectations; we hit the ground running, and it was more about simple survival most of the time. We worked into the social stuff over time, and got an education in putting the group ahead of individuals. I think that our 'party mind-set', where we all worked together as a team to survive and achieve our individual goals helped with this.

I think we saw the difference from the very first, at least in our group. And once we'd gotten that, it was sink or swim.

Hm. For us, 'party loot' always included 'inducements', 'tips', 'goodwill payments', 'gifts', and 'baksheesh' as a matter of course from the very beginning. We regarded it as part of the 'overhead'; payments to the clan were part of the cost of doing business for the group, so I guess we did thins from the beginning of when we played - for us, it was simply part of belonging to the society. No resistance that I remember.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 08, 2015, 01:59:46 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;863443
Dear Karakan, that turned into a train wreck.

Complete with somebody insisting that Tsolyani words HAD to be used.

Amusingly, I never ONCE heard Phil actually use the word "kuruthuni".  I guess we'll have to have a seance to tell the old coot he was playing his own game wrong.


Oh? What did I miss while I was at work on Friday? I did some replies when I got home after midnight, but I saw last night that they'd all vanished.

(Huh? Why do Tsolyani words have to be used in games? What am I missing?)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 08, 2015, 02:01:58 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;863452
That's an interesting forum over there. I was reading the thread yesterday. It was up to 26 or so pages. I looked this morning and it was back to 25 pages. Some of the posts I read vanished(maybe into a pocket universe)!?!? Weird. What I read didn't seem too out there. Oh well, so be it.

H :0)


Yeah, I did a few replies to people, and posted the bit where the High Priest got it for stealing from the temple in Hekellu. What amazed me was that people started to dissect the bit for some sort of deeper meaning.

Hm. I'm still digesting it all... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 08, 2015, 02:03:17 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;863454
Yeah, even I found the linguistic insistence weird. And I'm the guy that finds S&G an entertaining reading, and reads encyclopaedia entries for campaign inspiration.

They lost about 15 hours of posts.


Agreed; what is it about the languages that people seem to obsess on?

Ah! I wondered what had happened. Did I miss anything?  :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 08, 2015, 03:40:02 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;863511
Agreed; what is it about the languages that people seem to obsess on?

Ah! I wondered what had happened. Did I miss anything?  :)

Not sure, or rather, my theory would make me sound like an angrier version of one of Pundit's latest posts. So I'll just state that I don't understand it, either:).

As far as we know, someone hacked an administrative/moderator account and started tampering with stuff, so they rebooted it to before the tampering started and advised all users to change passwords;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 08, 2015, 02:16:29 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;863508

Hm. For us, 'party loot' always included 'inducements', 'tips', 'goodwill payments', 'gifts', and 'baksheesh' as a matter of course from the very beginning. We regarded it as part of the 'overhead'; payments to the clan were part of the cost of doing business for the group, so I guess we did thins from the beginning of when we played - for us, it was simply part of belonging to the society. No resistance that I remember.


In the Very Early Days of EPT (c) (tm) (pat pend) (reg us pat off) it was indeed "XP for gold" much like early D&D.  That's why Moose working as dockside muscle and Anka'a and I in the arena was important; they'd get up a few khaitars so they could bet on me.  Once I won enough fights that they couldn't get odds better than 4 gets you 1, we needed a new game.

Once I joined the army, for me at least the "loot" box simply got ticked "not applicable," and once I became a General and a member of Golden Sunburst, doubly so.  "You've just married a member of the DuPont family.  Car payments for your 2004 Subaru are no longer an issue."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 08, 2015, 05:05:47 PM
So, I wake up on a fine Jakallan morning and I look out over the city from the roof of my clanhouse...What colors do I see? For example, what colors are the flora(the bestiary helps with the fauna), the buildings, etc? What prompted this was Chirine asking, "What color is the sky...?" After being wisked away somewhere while on his adventures...

So what color is Tekumel's sky? What do I see as I look around me?

I've never come across a reference to it in what I've read. Unless I've missed it. If so can you please point me in the right direction.

Thanks much,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 08, 2015, 05:50:48 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;863569
In the Very Early Days of EPT (c) (tm) (pat pend) (reg us pat off) it was indeed "XP for gold" much like early D&D.  That's why Moose working as dockside muscle and Anka'a and I in the arena was important; they'd get up a few khaitars so they could bet on me.  Once I won enough fights that they couldn't get odds better than 4 gets you 1, we needed a new game.

Once I joined the army, for me at least the "loot" box simply got ticked "not applicable," and once I became a General and a member of Golden Sunburst, doubly so.  "You've just married a member of the DuPont family.  Car payments for your 2004 Subaru are no longer an issue."


Same here. I came in when you got your Gold of Glory that was reported in "The Dragon", and I don't think I ever worried about XP or anything. I lived off my Temple and legion pay, and whatever little goodies I could pick up on our adventures. These days, I have three million of the little gold Kaitars in the treasure vault, due to a player's trying to finesse the Imperial Treasury and failing; I wonder what that would be in XP, and what could I do with it... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 08, 2015, 06:06:36 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;863590
So, I wake up on a fine Jakallan morning and I look out over the city from the roof of my clanhouse...What colors do I see? For example, what colors are the flora(the bestiary helps with the fauna), the buildings, etc? What prompted this was Chirine asking, "What color is the sky...?" After being wisked away somewhere while on his adventures...

So what color is Tekumel's sky? What do I see as I look around me?

I've never come across a reference to it in what I've read. Unless I've missed it. If so can you please point me in the right direction.

Thanks much,

H :0)

It's bright and colorful. Phil based his color sense for Tekumel on his time in South Asia; look on the web for photos of temples, fortresses, and palaces, and you'll see what Phil saw - and told us about. He said in a number of places that Tekumel is basically India, but with ray guns, and I've always gone with that.

May I suggest taking a little trip and following in Phil's footsteps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f1zNrdUpNc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f1zNrdUpNc)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OlrlwjBrGE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OlrlwjBrGE)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpjlsgPCB-Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpjlsgPCB-Y)

(I hope that these work; I'm not very good at this, sorry!)

Back about 1981 or 1982, Phil was working with the artist who did the covers of the Zocchi edition of S&G. The first two got published as the box covers, but you have to look at the current Foundation edition to see the first painting as it was intended to be seen; Zocchi left out the black printing plate in the color seperations to save some money. He was fearfully cheap; the draft of the Sourcebook was in nine point type, with two point leading, and Phil simply refused to allow that to be published. Lou went back and did it in a larger type, but poor Curtis Scott had to go in and do all the accent marks by hand, as Lou thought that it would cost too much money to typeset. It literally killed Curtis; he had a heart condition, and months in an unairconditioned warehouse in  Gulfport didn't do him any good.

Anyway, the cover painting for the GM Guide had a scene with some Ahoggya being rowed out to a ship. There's a lot of sky, and it's a nice golden-white color; Phil was delighted with this, as he pointed out that Tekumel's sun is a brighter yellow-white spectral class, so he thought that the sky should be a brighter golden color - the painting captures this perfectly.

Stuff like this went by in the campaign all the time; we knew that Kashi moves in a retrograde motion to Gayel, for example, which made my working out the planetary motion simulator kind of a pain. (Should have ahd the Tinaliya do it; they love that kind of thing.) Which is why I'm doing the book, too... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 08, 2015, 06:17:20 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;863594
It literally killed Curtis; he had a heart condition, and months in an unairconditioned warehouse in  Gulfport didn't do him any good.


Aw, DANG it, I didn't know that!  :(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 08, 2015, 06:43:19 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;863594
It's bright and colorful. Phil based his color sense for Tekumel on his time in South Asia; look on the web for photos of temples, fortresses, and palaces, and you'll see what Phil saw - and told us about. He said in a number of places that Tekumel is basically India, but with ray guns, and I've always gone with that.

May I suggest taking a little trip and following in Phil's footsteps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f1zNrdUpNc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f1zNrdUpNc)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OlrlwjBrGE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OlrlwjBrGE)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpjlsgPCB-Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpjlsgPCB-Y)

(I hope that these work; I'm not very good at this, sorry!)

Back about 1981 or 1982, Phil was working with the artist who did the covers of the Zocchi edition of S&G. The first two got published as the box covers, but you have to look at the current Foundation edition to see the first painting as it was intended to be seen; Zocchi left out the black printing plate in the color seperations to save some money. He was fearfully cheap; the draft of the Sourcebook was in nine point type, with two point leading, and Phil simply refused to allow that to be published. Lou went back and did it in a larger type, but poor Curtis Scott had to go in and do all the accent marks by hand, as Lou thought that it would cost too much money to typeset. It literally killed Curtis; he had a heart condition, and months in an unairconditioned warehouse in  Gulfport didn't do him any good.

Anyway, the cover painting for the GM Guide had a scene with some Ahoggya being rowed out to a ship. There's a lot of sky, and it's a nice golden-white color; Phil was delighted with this, as he pointed out that Tekumel's sun is a brighter yellow-white spectral class, so he thought that the sky should be a brighter golden color - the painting captures this perfectly.

Stuff like this went by in the campaign all the time; we knew that Kashi moves in a retrograde motion to Gayel, for example, which made my working out the planetary motion simulator kind of a pain. (Should have ahd the Tinaliya do it; they love that kind of thing.) Which is why I'm doing the book, too... :)


Thank you. This is another reason that TStPT is so important. I really didn't realize that the Tinaliya were so handy. You need something built, a secret door, or a special Chlen cart, call on the Tinaliya...TStPT made me go back to the source material and read. Yes, indeed the Tinaliya are very handy. It stuck more in a story format.

Thanks again,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 08, 2015, 06:57:20 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;863599
Aw, DANG it, I didn't know that!  :(


Yep. His widow wasn't very pleased, either; Bob Alberti likes to make jokes about the hand-written accent marks, and often cited them as an example of what utter dweebs you and I were as publishers - she heard about his wisecracks, and got pretty upset. I don't know if he still does this; now that he's a Director of The Tekumel Foundation, he's a Very Important Person. My girls call him "Bob The Snob", after meeting him.

(He's also the one who was a big factor in my brain bleed; I was installing a door knob and lock in the Foundations's office that they rent from Bob because Bob and Victor couldn't agree on how it should be done. So, as usual, I got handed the problem and told to get on with it. I had a year with them doing stuff like this, and that night my blood pressure was 220 over 110.)

That's why I was kinda surprised to see that they'd reprinted the scan of the Zocchi edition, instead of doing the OCR version that has been 'in the works' for something like six years. The Directors of the Foundation have always been very up front in their contempt for this particular edition, and it's a little surprising to see them reprint it in toto, including the missing portions of the text.

Ah, well. NMP, anymore. I'm just happy to see any edition of the thing back out there! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 08, 2015, 08:09:14 PM
Jeez.

Well, the OCR version would take time and effort, the old edition just needed printing.

Cynical?  Me?  Oh, you say the sweetest things!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 10, 2015, 01:53:42 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;863606
Jeez.

Well, the OCR version would take time and effort, the old edition just needed printing.

Cynical?  Me?  Oh, you say the sweetest things!




Considering how many hours I had to listen to their phone calls complaining about just how much work it all was, and that they couldn't cope, I don't think you're being cynical at all. These are, after all, the same people who worked tirelessly to undermine everything you and I tried to do for Tekumel, I think them now being in the publication hot seat is more then a little ironic.

Ah, me. It's good to be retired. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 10, 2015, 02:05:17 AM
And now, for everyone's amusement, let's have dear old Uncle Chirine ask a question, instead of answering one.

If I may, and please keep in mind that I exist in my own little bubble of reality here in the Northwoods and am not au fait with a lot of modern gaming terms, would anyone like to have a go at explaining the term immersion to me?

I've seen it go by in a number of places and in a number of discussions, but I don't think I really understand it. For example, it's been observed that using miniatures in an RPG "spoils the immersion" for the person; okay, I can certainly understand that viewpoint - after all, it is your game! - but I'm frankly unsure what is being spoiled. (I can understand the 'how'.)

My aged and ancient perspective on this particular facet of the subject is that back in the day, we liked using miniatures simply (I suspect) because a lot of us were people who like to make miniatures. For us, they were just another tool - we also used coins, dice, plastic game pieces from Milton Bradley, cardboard chits from board games, and anything else that came to hand. For us, our fascination was with the action around the table.

Am I heading in the right direction? Is what's meant by 'immersion' the fascination with the game play? Can anyone clarify this for me, as I am sincerely curious! :)

(Later on, somebody can tell me what 'b/x' is. Yes, I really am that old.)

Thanks in advance! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 10, 2015, 02:23:14 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;863726
And now, for everyone's amusement, let's have dear old Uncle Chirine ask a question, instead of answering one.

If I may, and please keep in mind that I exist in my own little bubble of reality here in the Northwoods and am not au fait with a lot of modern gaming terms, would anyone like to have a go at explaining the term immersion to me?

I've seen it go by in a number of places and in a number of discussions, but I don't think I really understand it. For example, it's been observed that using miniatures in an RPG "spoils the immersion" for the person; okay, I can certainly understand that viewpoint - after all, it is your game! - but I'm frankly unsure what is being spoiled. (I can understand the 'how'.)

My aged and ancient perspective on this particular facet of the subject is that back in the day, we liked using miniatures simply (I suspect) because a lot of us were people who like to make miniatures. For us, they were just another tool - we also used coins, dice, plastic game pieces from Milton Bradley, cardboard chits from board games, and anything else that came to hand. For us, our fascination was with the action around the table.

Am I heading in the right direction? Is what's meant by 'immersion' the fascination with the game play? Can anyone clarify this for me, as I am sincerely curious! :)

(Later on, somebody can tell me what 'b/x' is. Yes, I really am that old.)

Thanks in advance! :)


Hello Uncle,

Immersion...? I have no idea. But, B/X, I think stands for a 1981 style D&D box set retro clone.

http://bxblackrazor.blogspot.de/2010/07/what-hell-is-bx-companion.html?m=1

At least I think so. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Talk to you soon,

H ;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 10, 2015, 05:34:59 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;863726
And now, for everyone's amusement, let's have dear old Uncle Chirine ask a question, instead of answering one.

If I may, and please keep in mind that I exist in my own little bubble of reality here in the Northwoods and am not au fait with a lot of modern gaming terms, would anyone like to have a go at explaining the term immersion to me?

I've seen it go by in a number of places and in a number of discussions, but I don't think I really understand it. For example, it's been observed that using miniatures in an RPG "spoils the immersion" for the person; okay, I can certainly understand that viewpoint - after all, it is your game! - but I'm frankly unsure what is being spoiled. (I can understand the 'how'.)

My aged and ancient perspective on this particular facet of the subject is that back in the day, we liked using miniatures simply (I suspect) because a lot of us were people who like to make miniatures. For us, they were just another tool - we also used coins, dice, plastic game pieces from Milton Bradley, cardboard chits from board games, and anything else that came to hand. For us, our fascination was with the action around the table.

Am I heading in the right direction? Is what's meant by 'immersion' the fascination with the game play? Can anyone clarify this for me, as I am sincerely curious! :)

(Later on, somebody can tell me what 'b/x' is. Yes, I really am that old.)

Thanks in advance! :)

B/X is easy. It's the "Basic/Expert" box (or two boxes, not sure) of TSR-era D&D rules.

Immersion is...ahem, it would be easy to describe if people were using it to mean the same thing. Except they don't, IME:). It's quickly approaching the status of a buzzword that allows you to say something was good or that something prevents you from enjoying the game, without actually conveying any info other than "dissatisfied customer":p.
OTOH, I think I can explain its original meaning quickly so you could understand it (though under the influence of Exalted thread, I'm going to pick an example that might not be clear for everyone - but I assume you're going to understand it).
So, imagine you just went through a series of shadowboxing or even kata-style exercises. At the end, you felt like you were there and were fending off assaults with your sword, fists, or whatever.
That's "immersion";). "Ruined my immersion", in this case, means "felt like I was a player on a game table instead of a character in a game world".

Now, the catch?
Different people are bothered by different things. For many people, a LARP is immersive. To me, it's anti-immersive, because as soon as I see someone do some stupid thing that gives advantage under the LARP's rules, or see a supposedly great warrior that doesn't know how to hold a sword, I'm no longer feeling as my character, I'm acutely aware that these are just players, and ones that Did Not Do The Research at that:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Jason D on November 10, 2015, 05:56:42 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;863726
Is what's meant by 'immersion' the fascination with the game play? Can anyone clarify this for me, as I am sincerely curious! :)


The short answer is that when a player is "immersed" in the game, they're seeing the world through their character's eyes, and everything (environment, NPCs, sounds, etc.) are in their own heads.

Therefore it's (claimed as) a "deeper" experience than the god's-eye view of sitting around the table looking at walls drawn on a map, upon which stand some miniatures, one of which is your character's proxy in the game world.

The term usually comes up in discussions about which method of visualizing an imaginary world is better.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on November 10, 2015, 06:58:06 AM
Immersion is great when you can get it.  When you get it from a play or a movie or a book it's called "being transported."  Now the problem comes in when some people are being transported to different places due to the different ways their brains, linguistic, and cultural touch points work.  Because it breaks down fast when people start arguing.  I think this is part of why licenced science fiction games have done so much better than others in the market.  People have a common sense of what a Constitution class cruiser or an X-wing or an Vulcan or an astromech droid looks like and how it behaves so everyone gets into the same head space.

Miniatures can help avoid arguments but they also take time to set up and disrupt narrative flow.  They also, stop players from using abstract combat situations to get an advantage by arguing about where they were when the grenade went off.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Glazer on November 10, 2015, 08:27:29 AM
My own take on immersion is that it means you have suspended your disbelief. There's a lot about the suspension of disbelief here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on November 10, 2015, 11:04:02 AM
When I talk about immersion, I mean immersion in the character.

Quote from: Jason D;863746
The short answer is that when a player is "immersed" in the game, they're seeing the world through their character's eyes...
Yes this.

More than seeing the world, for me it is about thinking and feeling as the character. Thinking of the world from the character's perspective rather than from my own perspective. The perspective becomes first-person--so I don't have to think about "What would my character do in this situation?" I can react or know without thinking what my character does. In that case I tend to describe my character's actions in the first person.

A really big part is the emotional component--feeling as the character. Which often means making tactically suboptimal choices because that is what an impatient, angry, or naive character would do even though I, as the player, know that may not be (and often is not) the optimal choice to make at that time.

So it is two things - acting from a strictly in-character point of view and feeling from an in-character point of view as that particular character.

Other people use immersion for what I would describe as engagement. So people will say they are immersed when they are acting from an authorial perspective because they are engaged with the scene or involved with the evolving story. That's not what I mean.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 10, 2015, 02:05:16 PM
I'm finding this fascinating; thank you, everyone for your comments so far! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 10, 2015, 02:18:26 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;863590

So what color is Tekumel's sky? What do I see as I look around me?


Just a quick follow-up; the picture I'm thinking of used to be up on  the official Tekumel website (http://www.tekumel.com), but I don't know if it's still there...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: estar on November 10, 2015, 03:22:04 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;863726
Am I heading in the right direction? Is what's meant by 'immersion' the fascination with the game play? Can anyone clarify this for me, as I am sincerely curious! :)

Feeling as if you are actually there as the character in the setting.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;863726
(Later on, somebody can tell me what 'b/x' is. Yes, I really am that old.)

B/X = the edition of D&D published after the Holmes Basic D&D edition. Consists of two books, the Basic Rulebook by Moldavy, and the Expert Book by Cook.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on November 13, 2015, 07:51:22 AM
From what you say, it sounds like the Glorious General (Gronan of Simmerya) had a more typical beginning and that you started after the game had been going a while.
That you were started at a higher level than the original rules proposed.
If that is the case, to get a feel for what a starting player should expect, the Glorious General would be the best to ask?

Are there the collected reminisces of the early days by the Glorious General?
(Tekumel specific)
Do we need a Questioning The Glorious General thread?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 13, 2015, 08:28:03 AM
I was going through some notes...Chirine, could you expand on your adventure in the Purple and Brown Empire on the other side of the world.

Any ideas as to why the Professor sent you guys over there?

Thank you,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on November 13, 2015, 01:28:36 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;864171
Any ideas as to why the Professor sent you guys over there?

Because it was there?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 13, 2015, 03:18:00 PM
Quote from: Bren;864215
Because it was there?


Could be that simple...But from what I understand the Professor was not so. I think he had reasons that the players chose not to explore too much. They liked their skins... ;0)

I'm curious as to what the P/B Empire was like. And what plans they might have had for themselves and Tekumel(if any).

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 14, 2015, 02:13:27 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;864167
From what you say, it sounds like the Glorious General (Gronan of Simmerya) had a more typical beginning and that you started after the game had been going a while.
That you were started at a higher level than the original rules proposed.
If that is the case, to get a feel for what a starting player should expect, the Glorious General would be the best to ask?

Are there the collected reminisces of the early days by the Glorious General?
(Tekumel specific)
Do we need a Questioning The Glorious General thread?
=


Probably not a bad idea, if that's what you are looking for. Phil did the first generation of players as first level, and never did it after I got rolled up. He felt that it was just easier for players to start off as second or third level in order to make them more survivable. And to fit in with the rest of the group, too.

Personally, I have never started a player out as a first level one in any of my games, including convention 'one-offs'. I normally start new people out as second or third myself; it just seems to work better and the game sessions are more fun. I also do not dice for clans, temples, or lineages; I discuss it with the player, and we look over the lists to see what they think would be interesting. I am much more interested in the way a game group 'works' and how play 'flows', I think.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 14, 2015, 02:31:19 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;864232
Could be that simple...But from what I understand the Professor was not so. I think he had reasons that the players chose not to explore too much. They liked their skins... ;0)

I'm curious as to what the P/B Empire was like. And what plans they might have had for themselves and Tekumel(if any).

H :0)


Well, we went there by tubeway car, which as a mode of travel is a little limited for exploration purposes; there was a very strong tendency for us to stay close to the car, and to make sure to always leave a 'placeholder' with the thing to keep it from going back into the system and stranding us.

We were like three-days on the trip, which told us that it was on the other side of Tekumel. Me being handy with an astrolabe, I could tell we were on the 'northern hemisphere' of Tekumel, which would put us over on the 'upper' 'opposite' side. We came up out of the tubeway, and the coast seemed to be clear, so we popped the hatch and took a look around. Normally, anybody with a tubeway station handy keeps a very tight guard on the damn thing, to keep all sorts of unwelcome guests from dropping in. (Like Ssu, for example.)

There wasn't anybody around, so we got out and looked around for a bit. The locals did show up after a half-day or so, and we made sure to get them to understand that we were not going to causally go off for a stroll with them. They were some sort of military style unit, with brown Chlen-hide armor, and purple tunics and some metallic trim. Totally unfamiliar style of armor and weapons, so we stayed around to get more information.

They are very well organized, and are at about the same technological level as the Five Empires. Metal weapons are rare, as you'd expect, and they do have all the usual stuff like 'Eyes'. They were just as interested in us as we were in them, which made us a little worried. They did know about the Hokun, which really got us worried, and seemed to be on good terms with them - which was pretty much the signal for us to be on our way.

The local religion was polytheistic, from what little we could gather, and the government pretty monolithic. We did not learn much beyond this, on our first visit, and we didn't get much else later on when we were dealing with Lord Fu Shi; he seemed to be very familiar with this empire, which told us a lot more then we really wanted to know. They seem to be 'expansionist', if I can use that term, and interested in our side of the planet as a possible 'new frontier'. We speculated a lot that they were behind some of the more unpleasant events in our recent history, as a lot us stuff happened to the Five Empires that would have been to these folks' advantage.

So, bottom line, little hard data, and lots of informed speculation. So far, the parties sent to explore their portion of the world have yet to come back. Draw your own conclusions about that...

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 14, 2015, 12:55:35 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;864336
Well, we went there by tubeway car, which as a mode of travel is a little limited for exploration purposes; there was a very strong tendency for us to stay close to the car, and to make sure to always leave a 'placeholder' with the thing to keep it from going back into the system and stranding us.

We were like three-days on the trip, which told us that it was on the other side of Tekumel. Me being handy with an astrolabe, I could tell we were on the 'northern hemisphere' of Tekumel, which would put us over on the 'upper' 'opposite' side. We came up out of the tubeway, and the coast seemed to be clear, so we popped the hatch and took a look around. Normally, anybody with a tubeway station handy keeps a very tight guard on the damn thing, to keep all sorts of unwelcome guests from dropping in. (Like Ssu, for example.)

There wasn't anybody around, so we got out and looked around for a bit. The locals did show up after a half-day or so, and we made sure to get them to understand that we were not going to causally go off for a stroll with them. They were some sort of military style unit, with brown Chlen-hide armor, and purple tunics and some metallic trim. Totally unfamiliar style of armor and weapons, so we stayed around to get more information.

They are very well organized, and are at about the same technological level as the Five Empires. Metal weapons are rare, as you'd expect, and they do have all the usual stuff like 'Eyes'. They were just as interested in us as we were in them, which made us a little worried. They did know about the Hokun, which really got us worried, and seemed to be on good terms with them - which was pretty much the signal for us to be on our way.

The local religion was polytheistic, from what little we could gather, and the government pretty monolithic. We did not learn much beyond this, on our first visit, and we didn't get much else later on when we were dealing with Lord Fu Shi; he seemed to be very familiar with this empire, which told us a lot more then we really wanted to know. They seem to be 'expansionist', if I can use that term, and interested in our side of the planet as a possible 'new frontier'. We speculated a lot that they were behind some of the more unpleasant events in our recent history, as a lot us stuff happened to the Five Empires that would have been to these folks' advantage.

So, bottom line, little hard data, and lots of informed speculation. So far, the parties sent to explore their portion of the world have yet to come back. Draw your own conclusions about that...

Does this help?


Helpful...But a few follow-up questions if you please. Could you describe your tubeway car "placeholder"? What did you use for translation when communicating with the P/B people(magic, eyes, translation ball)? Did the P/B folk call themselves anything in particular? So it is safe to say that they know more about you(the Tsolyani), than you knew about them? Can you please describe the differences in their armor in relation to yours...Thank you.

Hope to hear from you soon,

H :0)

PS If you remember any of their names(the P/B people) that would be most helpful. Also, were the P/B folk more or less the same racial stock as the other side of the globe? Where there any other non-humans present other than the Hokun that you know of? Thanks again.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 14, 2015, 01:57:40 PM
Today's Second Saturday Game:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_r9yepPeiY0/Vkdyg4EvctI/AAAAAAAABo4/GvOKstSCWoQ/s1600/DSC00029.JPG (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_r9yepPeiY0/Vkdyg4EvctI/AAAAAAAABo4/GvOKstSCWoQ/s1600/DSC00029.JPG)

The players visit The Pyramid of Death. On the edge of The Forest of Death. Nestled in The Ruins of Death.

There's a theme to this game, I suppose... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 14, 2015, 02:07:42 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;864393
Today's Second Saturday Game:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_r9yepPeiY0/Vkdyg4EvctI/AAAAAAAABo4/GvOKstSCWoQ/s1600/DSC00029.JPG (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_r9yepPeiY0/Vkdyg4EvctI/AAAAAAAABo4/GvOKstSCWoQ/s1600/DSC00029.JPG)

The players visit The Pyramid of Death. On the edge of The Forest of Death. Nestled in The Ruins of Death.

There's a theme to this game, I suppose... :)


"The operative word, Mister Spock, is d-d-d-Death!" -- Harry Mudd
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Atsuku Nare on November 14, 2015, 03:55:27 PM
What's going to live in the temple and the ruins?

Also, your tubeway adventures - were the tubeways always underground? Was there anything you could see from the tube car, to give you an idea of where you'd end up?

And did you (or the Glorious General) ever disclose the existence of this mass-transit system to anyone? Clan, temple, or army? Or did you keep it secret?

Lastly, did the tubeway go through the core of the planet, or did it just run under the crust?

Thanks!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 14, 2015, 05:33:26 PM
The tubeways were all underground; no monorails whizzing over the countryside.  There were viewscreens, but good luck on getting them pointing where you wanted.  The tubeways themselves were featureless metal shafts with little or no lights.

The tubeways' existence was known to all "educated" people of Tekumel.  I use "educated" in the 15th century sense; that is, anybody in 15th century Europe who could read Latin and knew who Aristotle was, would have known of the tubeways.  Most of them frankly didn't CARE.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 14, 2015, 08:24:11 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;864393
Today's Second Saturday Game:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_r9yepPeiY0/Vkdyg4EvctI/AAAAAAAABo4/GvOKstSCWoQ/s1600/DSC00029.JPG (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_r9yepPeiY0/Vkdyg4EvctI/AAAAAAAABo4/GvOKstSCWoQ/s1600/DSC00029.JPG)

The players visit The Pyramid of Death. On the edge of The Forest of Death. Nestled in The Ruins of Death.

There's a theme to this game, I suppose... :)


After all the mayhem, a battle report is in order!!! I would like to know what's lurking down there...Have fun!!!

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 14, 2015, 08:41:32 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;864378
Helpful...But a few follow-up questions if you please. Could you describe your tubeway car "placeholder"? What did you use for translation when communicating with the P/B people(magic, eyes, translation ball)? Did the P/B folk call themselves anything in particular? So it is safe to say that they know more about you(the Tsolyani), than you knew about them? Can you please describe the differences in their armor in relation to yours...Thank you.

Hope to hear from you soon,

H :0)

PS If you remember any of their names(the P/B people) that would be most helpful. Also, were the P/B folk more or less the same racial stock as the other side of the globe? Where there any other non-humans present other than the Hokun that you know of? Thanks again.


Well, let's see...

The 'placehoder' is somebody who sits in the car with the door open, so the car won't leave - normally, the safety circuits won't let you go through the system with an open hatch, as the tubes are at a very low air pressure.

Eyloa used a spell, and did the translating.

They looked like us, but the armor was 'plainer', if I can be that vague; Phil never did any drawings of them. Didn't see any other non-humans, either.

No other data, sorry; we just didn't stay long, or go back there except when we got lost. Phil just didn't develop it much, from what we saw. And yes, they did seem to know more about us then we did about them, which indicated we had spies in our midst.

Yet another Mystery Of Tekumel that you'll have to go exploring for...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 14, 2015, 08:47:13 PM
Quote from: Atsuku Nare;864412
What's going to live in the temple and the ruins?

Also, your tubeway adventures - were the tubeways always underground? Was there anything you could see from the tube car, to give you an idea of where you'd end up?

And did you (or the Glorious General) ever disclose the existence of this mass-transit system to anyone? Clan, temple, or army? Or did you keep it secret?

Lastly, did the tubeway go through the core of the planet, or did it just run under the crust?

Thanks!


As a player, I have no idea; the players will have to go look. As a GM, I have lists and lists of what's down there.

Yes, the tubeways are all underground. The three viewscreens sometimes work, and you can see what there is to see. The tubes are pretty dark, with only dim little purple lights, and about the only time you can see anything is on the surface / in a station. The screens also can be used to tap into the communications network, which is usually a bad idea as it lets folks know you are coming, so they can get a hot welcome all ready for you.

Yes. We always filed reports, so we could get paid. Getting believed was another issue, though.

Nope, runs down to the core; that's how the technicians got to the gravity engines that are at the core and which provide both the orbital stability and gravity equalization. Please do not touch any buttons. Thank you.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 14, 2015, 08:47:59 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864433
The tubeways were all underground; no monorails whizzing over the countryside.  There were viewscreens, but good luck on getting them pointing where you wanted.  The tubeways themselves were featureless metal shafts with little or no lights.

The tubeways' existence was known to all "educated" people of Tekumel.  I use "educated" in the 15th century sense; that is, anybody in 15th century Europe who could read Latin and knew who Aristotle was, would have known of the tubeways.  Most of them frankly didn't CARE.


What he said. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 14, 2015, 08:49:39 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;864461
Well, let's see...

The 'placehoder' is somebody who sits in the car with the door open, so the car won't leave - normally, the safety circuits won't let you go through the system with an open hatch, as the tubes are at a very low air pressure.

Eyloa used a spell, and did the translating.

They looked like us, but the armor was 'plainer', if I can be that vague; Phil never did any drawings of them. Didn't see any other non-humans, either.

No other data, sorry; we just didn't stay long, or go back there except when we got lost. Phil just didn't develop it much, from what we saw. And yes, they did seem to know more about us then we did about them, which indicated we had spies in our midst.

Yet another Mystery Of Tekumel that you'll have to go exploring for...


Chirine, thank you. I had a feeling it was one of those mysteries...!!!

I'm sure I will come up with some more questions soon. I'm going to delve into the Deeds of the Ever Glorious...Talk to you soon.

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 14, 2015, 08:57:09 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;864460
After all the mayhem, a battle report is in order!!! I would like to know what's lurking down there...Have fun!!!

H :0)


Right. Well, in this game session, the four parties of PCs came on the table from four different directions, and collided more or less in the central plaza. One player took an early lead in shooting up the rest with a bow, and after managing to get to the pyramid's doorway got swarmed by the other three players, who were not amused at being shot at and taking casualties. Melee broke out, with lots of people getting bashed about.

After a lucky dice roll, the door to the pyramid opened, and the besieged player holed up in the entrance chamber to the pyramid and a heap of negotiations - this is a Braunstein, remember - broke out. After lots of talk and money changing hands, the four players allied with each other (we'll see how long that lasts) and will explore the pyramid itself in the next game session.

I will be putting in the vertical table extender, and we'll have a true three-dimensional game; the pyramid has upper levels, and we'll also visit the basement.

(More photos on my Photobucket page, too.)

Oh - almost forgot to mention! We lost power here at the house during the game, and I thought we'd have to stop. Instead, the players all broke out their lanterns (the little IKEA LED lights) and we went right on with the play without a beat. The rest of the game was fought by moon- and lantern-light, and was even more fun to play as everyone tripped over each other and themselves in the dark.

A lot of laughter, and a lot of fun! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Phillip on November 14, 2015, 11:42:32 PM
That is a fine looking tabletop setup!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 15, 2015, 12:00:31 AM
Quote from: Phillip;864504
That is a fine looking tabletop setup!


Thank you!

I built the table to be used for our sort of 'skirmish gaming', where you have relatively limited parties and you want to get into contact pretty quickly. The table itself is 60" x 60"; the trays around the edges are for dice, sodas, snacks, and the like. The center 'well' is 48" x 48"; there is a basic table surface as part of the table structure, and I have a removable smooth surface for RPG games. This game used one of my sets of 'tiles', which are 9.5" x 9.5" MDF with a half-inch of expanded styrene laminated on tip; this gets a coat of 'earth'-colored paint, and then sawdust sprinkled over the wet paint to add some texture. I then spray paint this (all right, yes I do use an airbrush) with some contrasting colors, and I think you get a nice 'look' to the table.

I have several sets of the 'tiles', one for each terrain type Phil listed for Tekumel, and with the various sets of trees and foliage I have I can replicate any of the types of scenery Phil describes in his works. I have everything from 'arid' to 'mangrove swamp', as well as urban stuff in case we need a townscape. As the Glorious General can testify to, I like modeling; all of this is what I enjoy, and having people drop by to play on the table is the icing on the cake.

My players seem to like this kind of thing; everything is set up and ready to go for them before they arrive, so there's no need to interrupt the flow of the game to set anything out. People do get into their characters, I've found.

:)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 15, 2015, 06:05:53 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864433
The tubeways were all underground; no monorails whizzing over the countryside.  There were viewscreens, but good luck on getting them pointing where you wanted.  The tubeways themselves were featureless metal shafts with little or no lights.

The tubeways' existence was known to all "educated" people of Tekumel.  I use "educated" in the 15th century sense; that is, anybody in 15th century Europe who could read Latin and knew who Aristotle was, would have known of the tubeways.  Most of them frankly didn't CARE.


If they're metal, how comes nobody has broken them down and reused:)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 15, 2015, 06:48:03 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;864628
If they're metal, how comes nobody has broken them down and reused:)?


Several reasons. First, the metal used is the same as in the hulls of the starships and spacecraft sitting on the Plain of Towers. Nobody knows how to work it, or even what the alloy might be. We're at about the same level of technology as the Greeks and Romans (and yes, I'm over simplifying, here) and we just don't have the means to use the stuff.

Second, too many people use the tubeway car system; start messing with it, and they'll get upset and do nasty things to you. Third, the system is maintained at a near vacuum, so it's more or less inaccessible.

Fourth, the maintenance crews are still active in some sections of the system, and they - being entirely inhuman, and mostly inorganic - take a dim view of people messing about with the infrastructure. They react very badly, and tend to be quite forceful about getting one to not do things. They don't do nasty things to you; they simply vaporize you - or worse. Much, much worse.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 15, 2015, 07:01:00 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;864634
Several reasons. First, the metal used is the same as in the hulls of the starships and spacecraft sitting on the Plain of Towers. Nobody knows how to work it, or even what the alloy might be. We're at about the same level of technology as the Greeks and Romans (and yes, I'm over simplifying, here) and we just don't have the means to use the stuff.

Second, too many people use the tubeway car system; start messing with it, and they'll get upset and do nasty things to you. Third, the system is maintained at a near vacuum, so it's more or less inaccessible.

Fourth, the maintenance crews are still active in some sections of the system, and they - being entirely inhuman, and mostly inorganic - take a dim view of people messing about with the infrastructure. They react very badly, and tend to be quite forceful about getting one to not do things. They don't do nasty things to you; they simply vaporize you - or worse. Much, much worse.
It's not that PCs haven't taken worse risks to get something that turns out to be useless, but I get your point why it's really uncommon:).

Now, let's imagine a hypotetic scenario. You have a legion that was away on a pirates-hunting mission for a decade or so by now, and it's the kind of war where the locals that sell you fish might be your next target tomorrow. Still, they have built a Vrimulha temple in what is basically hostile territory, and said temple has dedicated priests.
If on top of that said temple was holding a relic of some importance, and you knew that other temples might want it, what would the security measures against intrusion be like, apart from impalement of anyone who tries to steal it;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 15, 2015, 07:02:28 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;864628
If they're metal, how comes nobody has broken them down and reused:)?


Several reasons. First, the metal used is the same as in the hulls of the starships and spacecraft sitting on the Plain of Towers. Nobody knows how to work it, or even what the alloy might be. We're at about the same level of technology as the Greeks and Romans (and yes, I'm over simplifying, here) and we just don't have the means to use the stuff.

Second, too many people use the tubeway car system; start messing with it, and they'll get upset and do nasty things to you. Third, the system is maintained at a near vacuum, so it's more or less inaccessible.

Fourth, the maintenance crews are still active in some sections of the system, and they - being entirely inhuman, and mostly inorganic - take a dim view of people messing about with the infrastructure. They react very badly, and tend to be quite forceful about getting one to not do things. They don't do nasty things to you; they simply vaporize you - or worse. Much, much worse.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 15, 2015, 07:13:35 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;864635
It's not that PCs haven't taken worse risks to get something that turns out to be useless, but I get your point why it's really uncommon:).

Now, let's imagine a hypotetic scenario. You have a legion that was away on a pirates-hunting mission for a decade or so by now, and it's the kind of war where the locals that sell you fish might be your next target tomorrow. Still, they have built a Vrimulha temple in what is basically hostile territory, and said temple has dedicated priests.
If on top of that said temple was holding a relic of some importance, and you knew that other temples might want it, what would the security measures against intrusion be like, apart from impalement of anyone who tries to steal it;)?


Understood! :)

Right; I've done this, actually, and have had a little experience with similar problems.

First, location. I'd site the temple much as I would a little fort or military post - good access to water, no overlooking ground, that kind of thing. Second, the exterior is going to be walled and fortified; since it's a Vimuhla temple, you'd want to do something like that anyway, but this is not going to be decorative stuff - it's going to be practical. Third, the priests are going to be more of a garrison, but again, that's normal for a Vimuhla temple; it'll be a good guard force. So far, all stock and standard stuff.

Once we had the position secure, I'd build a nice vault for The Object, seal it up, and then invoke Lord Jnekksha'a to really secure the vault. This is pretty high-level stuff, but if The Object is really worth it, it's worth doing. There are some spells that can be used to ward the vault, but I always prefer to go right to the top in these things. That way, the garrison / priesthood can simply worry about dealing with the locals and any intruders.

I would also make sure to visit and support the garrison on a regular basis, but on an irregular schedule; nothing impresses the locals and any would-be intruders like the knowledge that they are likely to be hit from behind by more troops. Again, it helps that this is a Vimuhla temple; this is the kind of thing we do best! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 15, 2015, 07:55:06 PM
"Trust me, Glorious General, you don't want to know how we secured the Sacred Doohickey."

"... you know, Chirine, I believe you."

Every good commander needs to know when to NOT ask questions.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 15, 2015, 10:02:46 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864645
"Trust me, Glorious General, you don't want to know how we secured the Sacred Doohickey."

"... you know, Chirine, I believe you."

Every good commander needs to know when to NOT ask questions.


First thing I learned from my cadre sergeants as a kay-det. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on November 15, 2015, 10:05:44 PM
That is one sweet table. I miss using miniatures.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 15, 2015, 10:37:41 PM
Quote from: Bren;864657
That is one sweet table. I miss using miniatures.


Thank you!

This table - and the collections that live on it - are really my reaction (over-reaction, maybe) to the game room in Phil's basement. Maybe nine by twelve, the table was five by nine, and you usually had to crawl out under the table to get to the toilet. (We all learned to ration our fluid intake.) Hot and stuff in the summers, cold and dank in the winters, with metal folding chairs to sit on. We had The Tree, and The Hill, and that was it for scenery. Later on, Phil splurged and bought The Other Tree. The table was covered in green carpet tiles, and that was all we had for our games.

So, what I did after a decade of using several 30" x 60" folding tables in my basement - and two electric radiators and a dehumidifier, with a fridge for drinks and a dedicated toilet for the gamers in the laundry room across the hallway - was build a table that was comfortable to game on, easy to set up, and even easier to clean up. Set up for this particular game took fifteen minutes; tear-down took about ten.

For RPGs, it's even easier. There are photos of the game room on my Photobucket page; everything possible that a GM or player could want is within easy reach. Stuff can be on the table in literally seconds, so that the flow of the game is not interrupted. I can do anything on this table that the game campaign demands; I've been building models for our adventures for years, and they're all down in the game room. We have half the basement, courtesy of The Missus; the other end from the game table is the 'game lounge' (often referred to as The Lava Lounge, from all the tiki stuff to give it that 'Tekumel look') where all the suits of armor, props, costumes, weapons, and Tsolyani furniture lives.

(An Aside: Remember, Glorious General, when Phil bought that hand-and-a-half sword that was the same as yours? It's now hanging up in the lounge with the 'El Cid' sword he got at the same time on that Fabrica Gurrito order.)

You can play EPT here, and use the very same figures that we played with back in 1976 and after; I still have them all, in all their leaden glory. Every second and fourth Saturday, we visit Phil's creation, and we manage to have a pretty fun time.

And thank you again for the compliment! I am very proud of the game room, if I do say so myself... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 15, 2015, 11:13:44 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;864660


(An Aside: Remember, Glorious General, when Phil bought that hand-and-a-half sword that was the same as yours? It's now hanging up in the lounge with the 'El Cid' sword he got at the same time on that Fabrica Gurrito order.)


... now I'm feeling positively soggy with nostalgia.

(Remember that damn Flamberge of his?!?  No WONDER the fucking Landsknechts were so feared!)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on November 15, 2015, 11:37:42 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864662
... now I'm feeling positively soggy with nostalgia.

(Remember that damn Flamberge of his?!?  No WONDER the fucking Landsknechts were so feared!)
You don't think it was the poofy clothes?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 15, 2015, 11:41:40 PM
Heh.  Phil had (has?  what the hell DID happen to most of his ironmongery?)


....ANYWAY, an honest to God 16th century 6 1/2 foot Flamberge greatsword.  The goddamn thing was just plain scary.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 15, 2015, 11:52:13 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864662
... now I'm feeling positively soggy with nostalgia.

(Remember that damn Flamberge of his?!?  No WONDER the fucking Landsknechts were so feared!)


Yeah, I hear you. It was heartbreaking to pack up all that stuff for it to be sold, but at least I got photos of everything before it went. The two Fabrica swords were not part of what was to be sent off; I got those as a gift for my help. I also salvaged a chunk of Klaeber Court, from Phil's old office, when they tore that down.

Oh, sigh.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on November 16, 2015, 08:03:36 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;864674
It was heartbreaking to pack up all that stuff for it to be sold,...


That is one of the reasons why it is so important to get your book written.
While it may not fade from your mind, the context is fading from the world.

Keeping interest alive keeps this part of his life's work relevant,
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on November 16, 2015, 08:07:05 AM
As cities are built of the ruins of those before, how much was the terracing or change in height of the street taken into account?
Was the rise in street level of the older sections of the city important to the placement of clan houses and other buildings?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 16, 2015, 10:16:38 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;864674
Yeah, I hear you. It was heartbreaking to pack up all that stuff for it to be sold, but at least I got photos of everything before it went. The two Fabrica swords were not part of what was to be sent off; I got those as a gift for my help. I also salvaged a chunk of Klaeber Court, from Phil's old office, when they tore that down.

Oh, sigh.


Damn, they tore down Klaeber Court?  Son of a bitch!

If his collection was auctioned, may I hope that it was through a legitimate antiquitaries auction house, and that Umber got the proceeds?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 16, 2015, 11:01:01 AM
I'm positive that you may hope.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 16, 2015, 02:38:51 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864721
Damn, they tore down Klaeber Court?  Son of a bitch!

If his collection was auctioned, may I hope that it was through a legitimate antiquitaries auction house, and that Umber got the proceeds?


Yep. Klaeber is now our flat lot C-59.

All of Phil's vast collection of arms and armor went on sale through Chris Poor and his company, 'Arms and Armor'; he'd built up a world-wide netowrk of collectors (He also does film and television work, in addition to his 'retail' trade), and has been slowly getting the collection sold off for Ambereen. I helped with the restoration and cleaning a bit, as well as the photography, but Chris and his guys did all the heavy lifting. He'd been getting fair market prices for her; the 1600's suit of armor that used to fit me went for $10,000.

I got the Fabricas because they have no value in today's market; I wanted them for the associations and memories.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 16, 2015, 10:43:03 PM
Well, I'm glad Umbreen got a decent broker... I was worried that somebody like The Tekumel Foundation would sling it up on Ebay.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 17, 2015, 02:30:14 AM
Quote from: Bren;864666
You don't think it was the poofy clothes?


Or the huge codpieces?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 17, 2015, 02:33:19 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;864711
That is one of the reasons why it is so important to get your book written.
While it may not fade from your mind, the context is fading from the world.

Keeping interest alive keeps this part of his life's work relevant,
=


Agreed! Which is why I made sure to document everything as it passed by me. I started doing it in 1976, and kept at it. I'm still indexing and annotating Phil's work, and collating it with my own collections; it'll be my life's work, but I think it's worth it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 17, 2015, 02:36:04 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;864712
As cities are built of the ruins of those before, how much was the terracing or change in height of the street taken into account?
Was the rise in street level of the older sections of the city important to the placement of clan houses and other buildings?
=


A lot. It was 'built in' to the planning. As for placement, you bet - everybody made sure that their portion of the below-new-street-level areas kept their areas intact. People tended to build right over the old site, getting the Imperium to pay for the new buildings as part of the Ditlana.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 17, 2015, 02:52:15 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864820
Well, I'm glad Umbreen got a decent broker... I was worried that somebody like The Tekumel Foundation would sling it up on Ebay.


Well, Ambreen called Sothelby's in London - Phil bought a lot of his stuff there - and they advised her to call Chris Poor: "He's the gentleman we use, madam." So she did, and Chris and his guys dealt with it all.

What we're carrying on here, for the benefit of our readers, is the huge collection of medieval arms and armor that Phil used to have. if you were lucky enough to be allowed into the dining and living rooms, it was like stepping back in time to an English manor house or the British Raj. The walls were lined, and I do mean literally lined - he used the plate rails - with all sorts of Indo-Persian weapons and armor, with a lot of European stuff mixed in. It was incredible to see and touch it... !!!

And it always amazed me when we'd get complaints from gamers that Tekumel weapons were "unrealistic", "bizarre", etc.; a lot weirder stuff was hanging on the walls! Phil had gotten most of his collection 'in the field'; he'd go down to the police station, when he was living in South Asia, after a riot and have tea with the police. He'd make a donation to their benefits fund, and they'd haul out all the stuff that they'd taken off the rioters the previous day. Tulwars, daggers, knives, throwing axes, maces, bucklers, helmets, mail, katars, you name it, it was in there. he would choose the best, and that was the basis of his collection.

Like the night where Arneson is navigating our ship, so Phil asked him if he had the 'astronomer-navigator' skill and could use an astrolabe. "Of course," says Arneson, and Phil pulls out an 1500's Arabic astrolabe and asked him where we were. Arneson doesn't even blink - he really does know how to use the thing, and gives an impromptu lesson in medieval navigation to us...

It was an awesome collection, and I'm sad that it's been broken up.

Rest easy; the Foundation didn't want any of it. Chris took care of it all.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on November 19, 2015, 03:51:47 PM
Since you touched on Ditlana, can you explain that a bit more? Was it a matter of every building being torn down and starting fresh or just fill in your basement, first floor becomes the new basement? How long did it take? Where did everybody stay while it was going on?

Would a city's map change dramatically, meaning even if Clan A has their clan house over top of the old site, would it still be on the corner of Main St and Martin Luther King Blvd or would the street locations all change but Clan A's clan house just still be on the West Side of town?

How long before everybody started tunneling down into the old sections?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 20, 2015, 01:52:54 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;865284
Since you touched on Ditlana, can you explain that a bit more? Was it a matter of every building being torn down and starting fresh or just fill in your basement, first floor becomes the new basement? How long did it take? Where did everybody stay while it was going on?

Would a city's map change dramatically, meaning even if Clan A has their clan house over top of the old site, would it still be on the corner of Main St and Martin Luther King Blvd or would the street locations all change but Clan A's clan house just still be on the West Side of town?

How long before everybody started tunneling down into the old sections?


'Ditlana', the ritual renewal process for cities, is supposed to be a totally new start for a city; in reality, of course, it's a lot less then total replacement of everything. Clans and temples will often raze what they have and start over, but they'll usually keep 'the basement' intact so as to not disturb what ever secrets they have down there. Normally, the 'top level' of a city's Underworld is made up of a layer of these 'basements, connected by illicit branches off the sewer systems It's very badly documented, in most cases, and a real maze to try and explore to find the entrances to the level underneath. A lot of temples and clan houses have multiple layers of 'basements' underneath them, which can get more then a little tricky to explore.

The process can take a few years, or decades, depending on how much money s being thrown at the project. People normally stay in tent cities outside the city walls (if any), or with local relatives on the family estates. The 'city folk' move in with the 'country bumpkins', allowing for all sorts of hijinks.

The city map usually doesn't change much, due to property lines being so fixed - and ancient. As an example, some of my friends in the UK have a farm in Wiltshire where the surveyed property lines date back to the Norman Conquest; the records only go back that far, but the property lines may go back even further to the Bronze Age. People do 'move house', but they often maintain ' ground rights' to the sub-surface levels; it can get very complicated, so I'd advise hiring some player-characters to go down there and explore the thing.

(Which is what Phil had in mind; he would regale us with stories of his adventures wandering through various places in India, like the Red Fort, and tell us about all the different levels and periods that he'd looked through.)

About five minutes. :) Many of the 'renewed' ares have the access tunnels built right in as part of the reconstruction process.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 21, 2015, 02:12:02 AM
I just noticed that this thread has 1,345 posts! Wow! Who would have thought it - that so many people would have such great questions about such an obscure topic, much less have the patience to listed to some old fart natter on and on.

The book's up to 115,328 words tonight; I'm home sick, with a nasty cold and a flare-up of me gout - both big toes are afflicted- so I'm steaming away typing in between sneezes and hot water with Epsom salts.

I am now on vacation for a week, and I hope to get the Affair of the Malchairan Emerald written up for book four; it's the closest thing that Phil ever came to in regards a 'module' for Tekumel.

It was all about saving the Imperial dynasty from The Ultimate Peril, and once again the Seal Imperium's Chief Errand Boy got stuck with the job.

(Edit: If I may I'd like to mention how often music played a part in our games. We fought Third Mar while a tape of martial music played softly in the background (The First Maryland Volunteers on parade at Versailles for the anniversay of the battle of Yorktown), and we still have 'swashbuckling' music going in the game room when we play. My players are amused that the music uslaly manages to fit in with what they are doing. So, if you'll permit, here's my book in something like three minutes - and my apologies is this is a repeat of an earlier post:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqPgbwHdn0A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqPgbwHdn0A)

And for the 'end credits':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSvnxv_Mh2A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSvnxv_Mh2A)

Every time I hear the latter piece, I think of the scene in "The Right Stuff" where the seven Mercury astronauts are walking down the hallway towards the viewer in their silver pressure suits, and the "Right Stuff" march theme is playing. I keep seeing in my mind's eye all of us player-characters, whose adventures you've been reading about, in a similar group walking towards you. As the camera angle widens out, you see all of us, in all our finery and glory - and with Phil in the middle of the group...)

Thank you all, once again - I'm really enjoying your questions! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on November 21, 2015, 05:40:03 AM
I recommend Colchicine for a gout flare up myself and take Allopurinol as a preventative measure against its ravages.

Nigel
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on November 21, 2015, 08:45:08 AM
This is the latest update in my game by a character:
"Seems the only thing being validated here is slavery, poverty, and squalor. A man can not dream or become what he dreams of being, because his station will not allow it. Being a victim of circumstance is not a privilege."

"I am surprised that things continue to function in this city. The impoverished, destitute, distraught, and discarded, easily outnumber the opposition 10 to 1. Maybe I need a change of vocation."

"It is a heavy weight to bear the death of a friend, I could have lost you to the Chaskeri. More importantly, the deaths of those I didn't know. I mean the porters, did their jobs well, but seriously they risked their lives and for what, to set on the steps of a shrine and watch another man die? Our actions aren't enabling or empowering them, they are entitled. How can we continue to improve society, if that is the mentality we encourage?"


Have I portrayed the world correctly or am I doing it wrong?

Is this how you envisioned it and were able to overcome/thrive?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 21, 2015, 11:23:54 AM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;865528
I recommend Colchicine for a gout flare up myself and take Allopurinol as a preventative measure against its ravages.

Nigel


Ah! Thank you for this! I will run this past my doctors to see if these are workable in conjunction with array of medications I am taking post my brian bleed - there are six of these, currently, and I have to be careful about adverse interactions.

The really annoying thing, today, is that I have a massive head cold at one end, and pain in both big toes at the other. Everything in between is just tired, but that's why I'm on vacation! A lot of rest is indicated, says the Lady of the House.

And good news, today! My new laptop that was ordered for my birthday has arrived, so we'll be getting that into service this weekend. Massively faster then the old G5 'billboard' that I write on, and it even has the Intel chip set so I can get back on Skype and other video sites. PBM, here I come! :)

Thanks for the advice - it's very welcome!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 21, 2015, 11:32:29 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;865534
This is the latest update in my game by a character:
"Seems the only thing being validated here is slavery, poverty, and squalor. A man can not dream or become what he dreams of being, because his station will not allow it. Being a victim of circumstance is not a privilege."

"I am surprised that things continue to function in this city. The impoverished, destitute, distraught, and discarded, easily outnumber the opposition 10 to 1. Maybe I need a change of vocation."

"It is a heavy weight to bear the death of a friend, I could have lost you to the Chaskeri. More importantly, the deaths of those I didn't know. I mean the porters, did their jobs well, but seriously they risked their lives and for what, to set on the steps of a shrine and watch another man die? Our actions aren't enabling or empowering them, they are entitled. How can we continue to improve society, if that is the mentality we encourage?"


Have I portrayed the world correctly or am I doing it wrong?

Is this how you envisioned it and were able to overcome/thrive?
=


I like this; I think so, myself. It sounds like something I would have said, standing in the ruins of the Palace of the Realm in Hekellu after we'd had to fight our way into the city in order to govern it.

I can echo the sentiment. A lot of the locals got killed as we fought our way in; I had 600 Vriddi clan-guards, all armed to the teeth, and I wasn't particularly worried about killing anyone who attacked us. The rest of the table was held back in the train, and I went in with just Narkhodlan and the Vriddi. We hit very hard, and very strongly, and after some we crushed some initial resistance everybody just got out of our way and ran for it. My major concern was not getting any of my people dead or injured, cut up by the mob.

Yeah, I think I could have said these very words. Good job; I think you 'get' Tekumel.

For background:

http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/2013/11/problems-in-governing-or-storming.html (http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/2013/11/problems-in-governing-or-storming.html)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 21, 2015, 01:01:29 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;865534
This is the latest update in my game by a character:
"Seems the only thing being validated here is slavery, poverty, and squalor. A man can not dream or become what he dreams of being, because his station will not allow it. Being a victim of circumstance is not a privilege."

"I am surprised that things continue to function in this city. The impoverished, destitute, distraught, and discarded, easily outnumber the opposition 10 to 1. Maybe I need a change of vocation."

"It is a heavy weight to bear the death of a friend, I could have lost you to the Chaskeri. More importantly, the deaths of those I didn't know. I mean the porters, did their jobs well, but seriously they risked their lives and for what, to set on the steps of a shrine and watch another man die? Our actions aren't enabling or empowering them, they are entitled. How can we continue to improve society, if that is the mentality we encourage?"


Have I portrayed the world correctly or am I doing it wrong?

Is this how you envisioned it and were able to overcome/thrive?
=


Sounds like the Glorious General after third Mar, or yet another battle around Sunraya.  "It's not my place to question the Emperor, but this shithole isn't worth dying for."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 23, 2015, 11:33:22 PM
Hello,

I've a question concerning chlen hide weapons and armor. Barring being worn out from use and battle, does chlen hide deteriorate or lose any of its integrity over time? I was doing a bit of reading and it mentioned stores of ancient arms being show to those curious. Even a few instances of ancient armor and weapons being given to new troops. I would imagine that it holds up pretty well. But I wanted to hear from an authority on the subject as I've not come across any references in any volumes I have read.

Thanks,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on November 24, 2015, 12:49:53 AM
The secret is acid free backing boards and evacuated mylar bags.  Otherwise your sword will start drooping in your late forties.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2015, 01:22:04 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;865795
Hello,

I've a question concerning chlen hide weapons and armor. Barring being worn out from use and battle, does chlen hide deteriorate or lose any of its integrity over time? I was doing a bit of reading and it mentioned stores of ancient arms being show to those curious. Even a few instances of ancient armor and weapons being given to new troops. I would imagine that it holds up pretty well. But I wanted to hear from an authority on the subject as I've not come across any references in any volumes I have read.

Thanks,

H :0)


Well, the way that Phil played it, it didn't 'go bad' over time. From what he said, both in the game room and in the various books, if the armor or weapon hadn't gotten broken, it stayed in usable shape. It's 'pickled', in the curing process that also molds it to shape, so it tended to stay pretty good. It's not forever, by any means, but if it had been stored properly it usually was pretty pristine.

Metal armor and weapons, if they'd also been stored and maintained properly, also tended to last - Phil was quite familiar with the Styrian Armory at Graz, which has an incredible collection of military stuff. (Think National Guard Armory, but for the Spanish Armada.)

Chlen hide does not rust or decay much, and there were a lot of times we'd pick up stuff on our adventures. One of our adventures, in Hekellu, revolved around two corrupt Tsolyani officials selling Yan Koryani "military surplus" weapons and armor to the hill tribes - which were in rebellion against the Tsolyani, at the time - and which caused quite the scandal. Basically, if you didn't break it, it was usually still pretty good.

Everybody has stocks of 'heirloom' stuff that they keep in storage, which is why adventurers can be outfitted in short order - and why local politics can get so very interesting for Imperial officials...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2015, 01:27:26 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;865799
The secret is acid free backing boards and evacuated mylar bags.  Otherwise your sword will start drooping in your late forties.


Yeah, pretty much; maintenance is the key. See also the websites on the Styrian Armoury; the stuff there has been lovingly looked after for centuries, just in case they need to issue it to the troops. My favorite are the armor racks with the soldiers' names over each set of armor, so Georg or Hans can get into his gear in the quickest possible time; the place used to be laid out so that the trooper would go in one door on the one side in his underwear, and leave out the other side all ready to march. They have literally everything in stock - when the St. Mary's City Project asked what a particular object that they'd found in their dig site was, the Armoury replied that it was a musket worm (used to remove balls and charges from the gun barrel) and how many did they need as the Armory had something like five hundred in stock...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on November 28, 2015, 08:45:09 AM
I realize that you enjoy using the great minatures and the wonderful scenery that you have made but, were there times when everything was only in your imagination?

How important were the physical game pieces?

Do you think things that happened flowed from the models that you had?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 28, 2015, 01:46:30 PM
Thank you for your very good questions! I am going to answer them in three parts - I'm afraid that this is going to be a bit of an essay...

Quote from: Greentongue;866225
I realize that you enjoy using the great minatures and the wonderful scenery that you have made but, were there times when everything was only in your imagination?

The 'short answer' to this is "Yes, most of the time.". I've addressed this a number of times, but let me be more clear about it; the use of miniatures in games was, for us, yet another tool for 'telling the story'. They existed to facilitate what we were doing in our adventures. We used miniatures when it felt appropriate to the action in the game, as a sort of 'tactical display' to indicate the relationships of the PCs to their environment in space-time.

Miniatures, for us, were and still are part of what's been described as 'immersion' in our games. Their use was part of a spectrum of gaming that we moved freely back and forth along; there were times we'd play 'straight wargames' such as miniatures and board games, and there were times we'd play 'straight RPGs', when it was all about 'theater of the mind'. I like to describe it as 'watching the radio' - or using our imaginations to fill in all the details.

We didn't much worry if the miniatures we had weren't perfect replicas of what we were encountering; we filled in the details in our minds, and got on with the playing of the roles that we had assumed. Couple of cases in point: Over the years, I did four different figures to represent the character Princess Vrisa. Her player, Kathy Marshall, would select amongst the figures in my carrying case to show what mood or mode Vrisa was in at the moment, from ruthless mercenary bodyguard to elegant lady at a social function. When we needed a figure for her brother, Mridan, I dug around in the spares box and painted up a Ral Partha Greek Hoplite to represent him on the table. Was it an exact replica? No, not by a long shot. Did we care? No, as we simply filled in the details of his armor in our minds.

Can I give you a percentage of what games did and did not use miniatures? No. We didn't worry about it; we just played. One does not need miniatures to play RPGs; in my biased opinion, one needs imagination.

Figures, dice, coins, whatever - all of these are simply aids to the imagination.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 28, 2015, 01:52:04 PM
Part two...
Quote from: Greentongue;866225

How important were the physical game pieces?


In reality? Not very. Both Phil and I happened to like making stuff, so we tended to want to make stuff for the games and show them off. Everybody else tolerated this, as one did get to see some really cool stuff.

But...

The cool stuff was never allowed to impede the flow of the game. It added a lot to the games, providing details and humor, but it never was the be-all and end-all of our gaming.

Having said that, I do admit that I like to run 'skirmish' games with my stuff. But, as my players can tell you, there have been months and months of gaming where there has been nothing but sodas and chips on the table. If the lead isn't needed for the game play, it doesn't come off the shelf.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 28, 2015, 02:25:22 PM
And part three...
Quote from: Greentongue;866225

Do you think things that happened flowed from the models that you had?
=


Yes, but it was a two-way street. Stuff got made from the needs of the game play, and on occasion game play would take a cue from what was on the table. We fought the melee at the Palace of Bassa, King of the Black Ssu, in no small part because Phil had just gotten his sample Black Ssu in from Ral Partha. However, we were doing it in the first place because we had to pay off Thomar the Wizard for turning Eyloa back into a human (Well, as human as Eyloa ever got; he was a cranky old fart, most of the time, the snob) from his condition as the semi-divine Blue Fish.

I have had, over the years, games that simply cried out for models and figures to be made for them - which is where more then a few of my ships and boats come from - and I have had models that demand that game sessions be created for them.

If I may be permitted to use an analogy from my model railway:

A number of years ago, I had the good fortune to be traveling on the Severn Valley Railway, one of the oldest and best preserved railway lines in the UK. I was in the sales stall of the local model railway club, on the station plaftorm, when I saw a kit for the immortal "Lion", the star of films like my favorite "The Titfield Thunderbolt". My railway is set in the just post-war Grouping period, so I have no real use for such a model; I got it anyway, and when I got back home I cut a turnout into the line for a new branch line for "Lion" to pull some period coaches. She makes an appearance, collects her passengers and freight, and goes back to her branch station. (Art imitates life, in this case.)

Both Phil and I created models for games, and we both created games for our models. No rhyme or reason to it; it just was the way we did (and I still do) things.

The important thing is the game...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: djhyland on November 30, 2015, 11:49:17 AM
Thank you, Chirine and Gronan, for this thread. It's been a fascinating read, and I'm glad I found it while it's still active because I have questions to ask, too!

I've been fascinated by the Pariah gods (and the gods in general) since my introduction to Tekumel via the Man of Gold. What difference, if any, is there between the Pariah gods and the Twenty? Is it just that Pavar created an "orthodox" pantheon of the Twenty for "official" worship and left out the Pariahs, or are the Pariahs somehow intrinsically different?

On a different tack, what do you think the best thing that we, as fans, can do to increase Tekumel's popularity other than running games and introducing new people to it? From everything that's been said, helping out the Foundation doesn't seem likely to help Tekumel itself very much.

Completely unrelatedly, Chirine, are you a Gophers fan? I gather from what you say of your work that you do a lot of facilities engineering work for the U of M. Do you enjoy working the football games as a fan, or is it just another job for you?

Thanks in advance!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on November 30, 2015, 01:44:08 PM
Quote from: djhyland;866398
On a different tack, what do you think the best thing that we, as fans, can do to increase Tekumel's popularity other than running games and introducing new people to it? From everything that's been said, helping out the Foundation doesn't seem likely to help Tekumel itself very much.


I think supporting a current release of the game rules like:
Originally Posted by CardinalXimenes  
"And for interested parties,  beta 0.4 of Swords of the Petal Throne (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4qCWY8UnLrcM3VVX2c2WlhVU3M/view?usp=sharing)."

This would go a long way towards drawing more people into Tekumel.
So many people will not even consider "OLD" games.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: djhyland on November 30, 2015, 01:54:00 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;866407
I think supporting a current release of the game rules like:
Originally Posted by CardinalXimenes  
"And for interested parties,  beta 0.4 of Swords of the Petal Throne (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4qCWY8UnLrcM3VVX2c2WlhVU3M/view?usp=sharing)."


I have seen this. If anything comes of it, I'm purchasing/kickstarting it immediately. I also like the Heroic Age of Tekumel retroclone that's now in beta, and intend on buying it when it's released too.

Quote
This would go a long way towards drawing more people into Tekumel.
So many people will not even consider "OLD" games.
=


Tell me about it. Getting my group to play in the AD&D 2e game I'm running was a bit like pulling teeth, and that's not nearly as old-school or hard-to-find as, say, the original Empire of the Petal Throne rules.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 30, 2015, 02:45:04 PM
Quote from: djhyland;866398
Thank you, Chirine and Gronan, for this thread. It's been a fascinating read, and I'm glad I found it while it's still active because I have questions to ask, too!

I've been fascinated by the Pariah gods (and the gods in general) since my introduction to Tekumel via the Man of Gold. What difference, if any, is there between the Pariah gods and the Twenty? Is it just that Pavar created an "orthodox" pantheon of the Twenty for "official" worship and left out the Pariahs, or are the Pariahs somehow intrinsically different?

On a different tack, what do you think the best thing that we, as fans, can do to increase Tekumel's popularity other than running games and introducing new people to it? From everything that's been said, helping out the Foundation doesn't seem likely to help Tekumel itself very much.

Completely unrelatedly, Chirine, are you a Gophers fan? I gather from what you say of your work that you do a lot of facilities engineering work for the U of M. Do you enjoy working the football games as a fan, or is it just another job for you?

Thanks in advance!


Thank you for your questions - this thread will stay active as long as you and people like you want it too. I really enjoy answering questions about my time with Phil and about his world; I've been doing it since late 1976, and I think I have a few years left in me... :)

1.  Very broadly put, the Twenty want to keep Tekumel and the other 772 worlds in their current pocket dimensions, as part of their 'war' against the Lords of Humanspace. The Three want to return Tekumel to normal space, hence the background conflict of universe-spanning empires that Phil enjoyed - the Three are similar to Arisia, the Twenty to Boskone. Now, there are a lot more side issues and details to the whole subject, and I could go on forever about it - if you're local to me, then coffee and pastries would be in order. :)

In game terms, it's not a lot of detail that most campaigns go into - we didn't, in our time, as we had our own more immediate problems to deal with. That may be entirely different in your games, of course, depending on what you want to do.

2.  Besides running games and talking about Tekumel? Not much, due to the legal and IP issues involved. However, I don't think that's a major issue at the moment - Tekumel, as a world setting, has slipped so far off people's radar that any exposure is going to be a help. Back when I worked for The Mouse, the mantra was "Perception is more important that reality." That thread that Mr. G mentions is a good example of that; so is this one. The Tekumel that we played in with Phil seems to be a very different environment that people assume it to be - the 'urban legend' that we had to learn Tsolyani to play in our games is typical of that kind of nonsense. Get out there and play the word setting - use any set of rules that you like - and then tell people how it went.

The Tekumel Foundation has said. repeatedly, that it is not responsible for 'marketing' Tekumel; their policy is that this is the job of their various licencees. If you like those products, buy them; it'll keep those folks going. I'm also told that the Foundation has also been turning down direct help from people; why, I have no idea. They, based on their actions, seem to be taking the pages out of Gail Gygax's playbook and using them as their policies.

Not my problem. I'm much more interested in talking about Phil and Tekumel, and how one can have a great time with his gift of a world-setting, then I am about the 'politics around the throne' and 'prestige'.

And re football, I do not follow sports much at all. I am not really much of a fan, so the game days are pretty much just another day at the office for me.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 30, 2015, 02:46:46 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;866407
I think supporting a current release of the game rules like:
Originally Posted by CardinalXimenes  
"And for interested parties,  beta 0.4 of Swords of the Petal Throne (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4qCWY8UnLrcM3VVX2c2WlhVU3M/view?usp=sharing)."

This would go a long way towards drawing more people into Tekumel.
So many people will not even consider "OLD" games.
=


Agreed. Recycling old material is a really good way to put people off; new material using the setting information Phil left us is, in my opinion, A Very good Thing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: nDervish on December 01, 2015, 06:20:19 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;866407
I think supporting a current release of the game rules like:
Originally Posted by CardinalXimenes  
"And for interested parties,  beta 0.4 of Swords of the Petal Throne (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4qCWY8UnLrcM3VVX2c2WlhVU3M/view?usp=sharing)."

This would go a long way towards drawing more people into Tekumel.
So many people will not even consider "OLD" games.
=


Yep.  People like me.  I've been vaguely aware of Tekumel since it was first advertised in gaming mags, whenever that was.  Mid-to-late 80s, maybe?  Never really took any notice of it until Cardinal X posted his first public draft, at which point I took a look at it purely because I'm a big fan of his work.  Saw enough interesting there that I started following this and the Glorious General thread, where I saw a passing reference to "ditlana", which sparked an idea in my head for a city-based campaign which brought together several things I'd been trying to reconcile for the last 8 months or so.

Then I was reading the latest Swords of the Petal Throne draft in more detail last night and discovered that I'm basically reinventing Jakalla from first principles.

So now I have to decide whether to continue work on my own world or to scrap it and just play Tekumel instead.  *sigh*
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on December 01, 2015, 07:47:16 AM
Quote from: nDervish;866499


Then I was reading the latest Swords of the Petal Throne draft in more detail last night and discovered that I'm basically reinventing Jakalla from first principles.

So now I have to decide whether to continue work on my own world or to scrap it and just play Tekumel instead.  *sigh*


It would probably depend on if you are comfortable with the social aspects of Tekumel - the slavery, the stratified society and the class/clan system. If you can see those as just a way of setting the limits for the society in a planet thousands of years in the future and locked away in a pocket universe to make it a much more interesting place to play in then that's fine.

I've been aware of EPT since the first publication but could never raise any interest in playing there - too complex was a frequent cry, but I just picked up the POD of S&G vol 1 and ran a game at a UK con and started a one-shot on-line and after a little pushing got some players from the G+ tekumel community who are enjoying it so far. It's easy to run if you have a little understanding of  the background and the S&G Source book does just that.

Nigel
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 01, 2015, 02:29:15 PM
Quote from: nDervish;866499
Yep.  People like me.  I've been vaguely aware of Tekumel since it was first advertised in gaming mags, whenever that was.  Mid-to-late 80s, maybe?  Never really took any notice of it until Cardinal X posted his first public draft, at which point I took a look at it purely because I'm a big fan of his work.  Saw enough interesting there that I started following this and the Glorious General thread, where I saw a passing reference to "ditlana", which sparked an idea in my head for a city-based campaign which brought together several things I'd been trying to reconcile for the last 8 months or so.

Then I was reading the latest Swords of the Petal Throne draft in more detail last night and discovered that I'm basically reinventing Jakalla from first principles.

So now I have to decide whether to continue work on my own world or to scrap it and just play Tekumel instead.  *sigh*


My advice - do what you find fun. "We made stuff up, and we had fun." - Dave Arneson

What we're doing here, in this thread and in what I do in the game room, is try to provide inspiration - either for the world-setting we've been enjoying for so  long, or one of your own. Either way, please feel free to take away whatever you need for your games! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 01, 2015, 02:30:45 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;866500
It would probably depend on if you are comfortable with the social aspects of Tekumel - the slavery, the stratified society and the class/clan system. If you can see those as just a way of setting the limits for the society in a planet thousands of years in the future and locked away in a pocket universe to make it a much more interesting place to play in then that's fine.

I've been aware of EPT since the first publication but could never raise any interest in playing there - too complex was a frequent cry, but I just picked up the POD of S&G vol 1 and ran a game at a UK con and started a one-shot on-line and after a little pushing got some players from the G+ tekumel community who are enjoying it so far. It's easy to run if you have a little understanding of  the background and the S&G Source book does just that.

Nigel

Precisely. And you've put it very well, too! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: djhyland on December 01, 2015, 04:42:51 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;866500
It would probably depend on if you are comfortable with the social aspects of Tekumel - the slavery, the stratified society and the class/clan system. If you can see those as just a way of setting the limits for the society in a planet thousands of years in the future and locked away in a pocket universe to make it a much more interesting place to play in then that's fine.


Moreover, if you have problems with some of the social aspects but still like Tekumel as a whole, change things to your liking. If you and your group have fun with the result, that's what matters--who cares if you're Tekumel doesn't match with that of others?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 01, 2015, 08:07:55 PM
Quote from: djhyland;866549
--who cares if you're Tekumel doesn't match with that of others?


SACRILEGE!!
You must bow before the One True Vision of Tekumel and feel unworthy if you are not able to match it exactly.
:D

(If only more people didn't actually feel, "You must buy a professionally made product because only it is the True Way.")
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 02, 2015, 02:23:00 AM
Quote from: djhyland;866549
Moreover, if you have problems with some of the social aspects but still like Tekumel as a whole, change things to your liking. If you and your group have fun with the result, that's what matters--who cares if you're Tekumel doesn't match with that of others?


Well, yeah! In Phil's games, we certainly did a lot of social stuff, but Phil never let it get in the way of The Adventure. It served as a springboard, a gloss, and a way to get us involved with the people we met along the way - just like his languages.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 02, 2015, 02:26:00 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;866579
SACRILEGE!!
You must bow before the One True Vision of Tekumel and feel unworthy if you are not able to match it exactly.
:D

(If only more people didn't actually feel, "You must buy a professionally made product because only it is the True Way.")
=


Well, okay, but can you fill me in on what's The One True Vision? :) Phil has been quoted as saying that his games with us were not 'real Tekumel'; he was taking liberties with his own world setting - let alone his own rules! - so as to have an Adventure.

Oh, I'm just sooo confused by it all. Back to the painting, for me... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: nDervish on December 02, 2015, 05:15:16 AM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;866500
It would probably depend on if you are comfortable with the social aspects of Tekumel - the slavery, the stratified society and the class/clan system.


Nope, I don't have any problems with those.  On the contrary, when I first looked at SotPT and character creation started with creating your clan and lineage, my mind immediately jumped to how I might steal that.  :D

Really, at this point, my reluctance about Tekumel is mostly just a mix of NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome and sunk cost fallacy.  I like running homebrew over published settings and I've already put a fair bit of effort into my own city, which makes it hard to set that aside.  It's nothing to do with Tekumel itself - if I'd known as much about Tekumel a month ago as I do today, I would have taken it up without hesitation.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;866536
My advice - do what you find fun. "We made stuff up, and we had fun." - Dave Arneson

What we're doing here, in this thread and in what I do in the game room, is try to provide inspiration - either for the world-setting we've been enjoying for so  long, or one of your own. Either way, please feel free to take away whatever you need for your games! :)


Good advice!  And thanks for sharing your experiences and keeping this thread running.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 02, 2015, 02:47:31 PM
Quote from: nDervish;866612
Nope, I don't have any problems with those.  On the contrary, when I first looked at SotPT and character creation started with creating your clan and lineage, my mind immediately jumped to how I might steal that.  :D

Really, at this point, my reluctance about Tekumel is mostly just a mix of NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome and sunk cost fallacy.  I like running homebrew over published settings and I've already put a fair bit of effort into my own city, which makes it hard to set that aside.  It's nothing to do with Tekumel itself - if I'd known as much about Tekumel a month ago as I do today, I would have taken it up without hesitation.

Good advice!  And thanks for sharing your experiences and keeping this thread running.


Agreed - Tekumel is a setting, not a set of rules.

And your work? Use it! There are plenty of places that Phil never 'developed' - we only explored maybe a quarter of the planet. For all I know, you're the guy who Knows All about that empire over on the other side...

And there's precedent, too; "City State of the Invincible Overlord" got used as a 'default' or 'stand in' a lot for our games. People would write in about what was happening in their campaign, and if Phil thought it was interesting he' often send them a map he'd draw of that place and tell then to send in their reports. We'd include those in our 'zines, and they'd become part of his campaign.

Just wade right in. The water's fine! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Phillip on December 02, 2015, 06:42:16 PM
I made Pechano more of a familiar feudal kind of society.  

But here's something for "sunk cost" people: If it's not where you want to live, Tekumel can still be a great place to visit. Don't D&D-ish campaigns feature gates to other worlds and such any more? Heck, back in the day the cover of the DMG featured an Efreet in the City of Brass on the Plane of Fire.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: djhyland on December 02, 2015, 09:15:04 PM
I've another (well, a bunch more, but I'll ask 'em one at a time!) question on the gods of Tekumel. Each of the gods has a number of aspects--are these merely different forms that the gods use for different situations, or are they separate entities? Is, say, Hrihayal a "composite" of 34 individual entities, or does she have 34 different avatars that she uses as she needs? My original theory was that a god's aspects are just different "avatars" of one being, but after reading about Salarvyya's goddess Shiringgayi being a combination between Avanthe and Dlamilesh, I'm leaning towards the "composite" theory.

Back to real life, how much, if at all, was Ambereen involved in Tekumel? I've never heard of her playing or anything, but I can't imagine that she wasn't involved in any way.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;866412
T1.  Very broadly put, the Twenty want to keep Tekumel and the other 772 worlds in their current pocket dimensions, as part of their 'war' against the Lords of Humanspace. The Three want to return Tekumel to normal space, hence the background conflict of universe-spanning empires that Phil enjoyed - the Three are similar to Arisia, the Twenty to Boskone.


That sounds like the Twenty could have been responsible for casting Tekumel into the pocket dimension in the first place...

Quote
Now, there are a lot more side issues and details to the whole subject, and I could go on forever about it - if you're local to me, then coffee and pastries would be in order. :)


Wow, really? Hot damn! Given that my schedule is pretty ridiculous with work and kids and all that, I can't say name the time...but if we can figure out a time that works, name the place and I'll buy the coffee and pastries!

Quote from: Greentongue;866579
SACRILEGE!!
You must bow before the One True Vision of Tekumel and feel unworthy if you are not able to match it exactly.


Uh oh, I'd better go on the run lest the Tekumel Police come for me!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 02, 2015, 10:08:45 PM
Quote from: djhyland;866720

Uh oh, I'd better go on the run lest the Tekumel Police come for me!


We prefer "Omnipotent Azure Legion," nakome.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 03, 2015, 02:45:11 AM
Quote from: nDervish;866612
Nope, I don't have any problems with those.  On the contrary, when I first looked at SotPT and character creation started with creating your clan and lineage, my mind immediately jumped to how I might steal that.  :D

Really, at this point, my reluctance about Tekumel is mostly just a mix of NIH (Not Invented Here) syndrome and sunk cost fallacy.  I like running homebrew over published settings and I've already put a fair bit of effort into my own city, which makes it hard to set that aside.  It's nothing to do with Tekumel itself - if I'd known as much about Tekumel a month ago as I do today, I would have taken it up without hesitation.



Good advice!  And thanks for sharing your experiences and keeping this thread running.


Happy to be of help! Ask away! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 03, 2015, 02:47:45 AM
Quote from: Phillip;866701
I made Pechano more of a familiar feudal kind of society.  

But here's something for "sunk cost" people: If it's not where you want to live, Tekumel can still be a great place to visit. Don't D&D-ish campaigns feature gates to other worlds and such any more? Heck, back in the day the cover of the DMG featured an Efreet in the City of Brass on the Plane of Fire.


And there you go - Barsoom was great, Greyhawk was all right, Blackmoor was fun; Phil never took us to Lankhmar, that we knew - but you never knew with him... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 03, 2015, 02:58:55 AM
Quote from: djhyland;866720
I've another (well, a bunch more, but I'll ask 'em one at a time!) question on the gods of Tekumel. Each of the gods has a number of aspects--are these merely different forms that the gods use for different situations, or are they separate entities? Is, say, Hrihayal a "composite" of 34 individual entities, or does she have 34 different avatars that she uses as she needs? My original theory was that a god's aspects are just different "avatars" of one being, but after reading about Salarvyya's goddess Shiringgayi being a combination between Avanthe and Dlamilesh, I'm leaning towards the "composite" theory.

Back to real life, how much, if at all, was Ambereen involved in Tekumel? I've never heard of her playing or anything, but I can't imagine that she wasn't involved in any way.

That sounds like the Twenty could have been responsible for casting Tekumel into the pocket dimension in the first place...

Wow, really? Hot damn! Given that my schedule is pretty ridiculous with work and kids and all that, I can't say name the time...but if we can figure out a time that works, name the place and I'll buy the coffee and pastries!

Uh oh, I'd better go on the run lest the Tekumel Police come for me!


1. They are avatars, not colony beings. The 'combination' for Shiringgyi was a description to make it easier for people to understand that she's a real party girl. See also the infamous 'Elixir of Shiringgayi', one of the most terrifying perils we ever came up against.

2. Ambereen was never interested in Tekumel; it was 'Phil's Poker Night With The Boys'. Her concern was that we'd get the place dirty or steal the silverware or something like that. She's count us in, and count us out, like any good warden in a high security prison. Do not trifle with her; she wields the Broom Of Doom. (+5 +5, in EPT)

3. Yep. it's supposed to be One Of The Big Secrets of Tekumel, but we worked in out pretty early on.

4. I am normally available on weekends; football season is almost over, so I should have all of them clear for the next six months. Tours of the basement are also available; we're not coffee drinkers, but we do have lots of tea - do try the tea collection, we're having a special; we have enough you could bathe in the stuff... - and pastries are close by. There are also several good little 'diners' that I can suggest as well. We're down by the VA hospital, if that's any help. Give me a shout; always happy to have guests! :)

5. I'm still baffled by 'the right way to play', for anything. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 04, 2015, 08:15:38 AM
Please explain the Meshqu and their impact on the game from your experience.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 04, 2015, 08:51:46 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;867019
Please explain the Meshqu and their impact on the game from your experience.


You beat me to it!!! I was going to ask too. I remember it being mentioned in The Professor's books at least in The Man of Gold. Otherwise not sure if it is discussed elsewhere.

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 05, 2015, 03:15:32 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;867019
Please explain the Meshqu and their impact on the game from your experience.

Quote from: Hrugga;867139
You beat me to it!!! I was going to ask too. I remember it being mentioned in The Professor's books at least in The Man of Gold. Otherwise not sure if it is discussed elsewhere.)

Well, all right, if you both insist. You're sure, now? :)

Meshqu are a manifestation of the Tsolyani love of visual display; the plaques that make up one's broad collar, for example, which show one's clan, temple, and status are another. High-class people - or those with pretensions to same - have sets of these square plaques which they display by the door of their personal rooms; these are in various colors and designs, and are intended to depict to visitors the mood, emotions, status, or activities of the person within. They have rather elaborate names, like "The Plaque of Serene Alimentation" (the resident is having a quiet dinner) and are quite often used to display all sorts of things. (In houses where these are not used, a visitor would ask the major-domo for this kind of information.) There are something like 26 plaques in the 'basic set', and while there are may obscure ones, these are the most common - and of these, perhaps 12 to 18 are usually to be seen.

Phil first wrote about these in "The Tekumel Journal", back in 1977 or so, and used them as 'local color' in his novels. The 'zine article had drawings of the most common plaques, and I made a set for myself which got some use at my apartment. Visitors could see if they were welcome or not. We also did sets for Carl Brodt, back some years ago, but you'd have to ask him if he has any left.

In our games at Phil's, these would occasionally come up in the game play; we would, as a matter of politeness, always check to see if these were displayed before we tried to go into somebody's private quarters. It's a matter of politeness; we'd also ask the servants or the major-domo, as we thought appropriate.

They would also come up as part of the 'table talk'; when somebody wanted to indicate their status, they would say "I'm displaying the Plaque of (insert name here)." As we were also terrible comedians and ham actors, we'd also come up with very imaginary plaques to amuse Phil; we'd use the same flowery and elaborate words, but they'd be pretty silly - like the time Vrisa set out on her first ocean voyage, and announced that she was displaying The Plaque Of Upset Tummies next to her spot at the ship's rail.

And they also provided some of the very best moments in our games, too. We were being besieged in Castle Tilketl by the Yan Koryani, and they summoned us to surrender; The Glorious General gave them a suitable reply, all soldierly, dignified, and defiant, and then I unrolled a green tarp freshly painted with six white ovals over the battlements of the gatehouse in their faces. This is 'The Plaque Of One Being Unavailable', and which indicates that the resident is at home, but not seeing or entertaining visitors. In short, they could get stuffed.

Phil was so astonished that his jaw dropped to his chest, his cigar fell to the table (I think Kathy had to put it out before it set the table's carpet on fire), and after a few moments he started laughing. He laughed so hard, he actually had to put his head down on the table and gasp for breath. The other players seemed to think it was funny, too; Gronan was laughing so hard his face turned bright red...

We were very serious people back in those far-off days... :)

(By the way, you can see a replay of this game in miniature on my Photobucket page. Just saying.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: nDervish on December 05, 2015, 07:30:30 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;866782
3. Yep. it's supposed to be One Of The Big Secrets of Tekumel, but we worked in out pretty early on.


What gave it away?  In-game information or out-of-game knowledge of Phil and how his mind worked?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 05, 2015, 02:27:20 PM
Quote from: nDervish;867225
What gave it away?  In-game information or out-of-game knowledge of Phil and how his mind worked?


Well, it all got pretty well aired when Eyloa fussed around with the Egg of the World and brought Tekumel back into Humanspace. After the Space Marines landed and took over, the players mutinied and told Phil that if they wanted to play 'Traveller', they'd go and play at the Fifth Precinct. Phil grumped about it a lot, but faced with the prospect of no players 'reset' the campaign and things were off and running again.

It was a combination of both sources of information; over the years we found out a lot about the gods, as well as talking to Phil about Tekumel and his time in F/SF fandom in the late 1940s and early 1950s. We just absorbed it, as it really was fascinating, but we mainly just got on with the business of surviving on Tekumel and furthering our careers.

Out of game, we did know a lot more about the world-setting then our PCs did in game; we always tried to play as out PCs, and not let our knowing about the meta-game affect what we did.

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 05, 2015, 03:20:26 PM
Quote from: nDervish;867225
What gave it away?  In-game information or out-of-game knowledge of Phil and how his mind worked?


Lord of Light was published in 1968 and most of us read it in the early 70s.  If you've read it, the "Twenty" of Tekumel are pretty obvious.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 05, 2015, 03:27:52 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;867204

And they also provided some of the very best moments in our games, too. We were being besieged in Castle Tilketl by the Yan Koryani, and they summoned us to surrender; The Glorious General gave them a suitable reply, all soldierly, dignified, and defiant, and then I unrolled a green tarp freshly painted with six white ovals over the battlements of the gatehouse in their faces. This is 'The Plaque Of One Being Unavailable', and which indicates that the resident is at home, but not seeing or entertaining visitors. In short, they could get stuffed.

Phil was so astonished that his jaw dropped to his chest, his cigar fell to the table (I think Kathy had to put it out before it set the table's carpet on fire), and after a few moments he started laughing. He laughed so hard, he actually had to put his head down on the table and gasp for breath. The other players seemed to think it was funny, too; Gronan was laughing so hard his face turned bright red...

We were very serious people back in those far-off days... :)

(By the way, you can see a replay of this game in miniature on my Photobucket page. Just saying.)


Phil usually reacted to our jokes with a "very funny."  ( Often our jokes were more "winceworthy" than funny.)

Once in a while he'd chuckle, or let out a brief "Ha!"

That's the only time I saw him totally lose it.  And I thought they were going to have to give me oxygen.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on December 05, 2015, 03:32:30 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867294
And I thought they were going to have to give me oxygen.
Oxygen deprivation. That explains so much... :p
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 05, 2015, 04:54:37 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867291
Lord of Light was published in 1968 and most of us read it in the early 70s.  If you've read it, the "Twenty" of Tekumel are pretty obvious.

Wait...:D

Yeah, that explains a lot. I'd read it years before Tekumel and didn't register more than a casual connection.
(Besides, to me Lord of Light was published in the 90ies, because I remember the Bulgarian edition, of course!)

Also, it makes me better-inclined towards the Ten of Change, and kinda explains why a lot of you seemed to favour them;). Or maybe it doesn't. But at least it explains to me why I would want to follow any god but those of Stasis!

(I should've paid more attention to the part where the gods of stasis aim for absolute stasis. But I was going for the Creation-Existence-Destruction cycle of the ancient Hindu myths, and the Twenty don't fit well there).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 05, 2015, 05:06:36 PM
Well, humans being humans the Lords of Stability on Tekumel did not represent absolute statis.  I was a follower of Karakan, for instance, which fit well with my career as a soldier and my lack of political ambition.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 05, 2015, 09:24:27 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867291
Lord of Light was published in 1968 and most of us read it in the early 70s.  If you've read it, the "Twenty" of Tekumel are pretty obvious.


Agreed! This is part of the shared world / mental map that you and I inhabit(ed) and apply to our gaming, and one which I think may be largely forgotten or unknown today. I think all of us at Phil's table, at least in the original Thursday Night Group, had read this book - I don't remember if Phil said that he had, but I would not be surprised if he did. (Maybe Ken Fletcher would know.) He did really like the "Lord of Light" aircar model that I did, with you as Sam and me as Yama...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 05, 2015, 09:27:54 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867294
Phil usually reacted to our jokes with a "very funny."  ( Often our jokes were more "winceworthy" than funny.)

Once in a while he'd chuckle, or let out a brief "Ha!"

That's the only time I saw him totally lose it.  And I thought they were going to have to give me oxygen.


We did manage to 'get' him, once in a very great while. This was one, if not the best, of the very very best 'gotchas' we ever managed to pull off... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 05, 2015, 09:30:43 PM
Quote from: Bren;867296
Oxygen deprivation. That explains so much... :p


Yep. Too much laughter in our games; "We made stuff up, and we had fun."

Ask Gronan about The Pink Tree Of Death. C'mon; I dare you!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 05, 2015, 09:54:08 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;867374
Yep. Too much laughter in our games; "We made stuff up, and we had fun."

Ask Gronan about The Pink Tree Of Death. C'mon; I dare you!


BWAAAAAAAA HA HA HA HAAAAAA HA HA HAHAHAHA HAHAHA HAAAAAAA HAHAHAHAHAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAAAAA HA HA * SNORRRRK * AHAAAA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAA HA HA HA HA  HAAA  ha ha ha ha heee heee heee heee heee heee hoo hoo hoo hoo * giggle *
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 05, 2015, 09:56:58 PM
QUICK!!! THE OXYGEN BOTTLE!!!

*snicker*... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 05, 2015, 10:59:00 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;867386
QUICK!!! THE OXYGEN BOTTLE!!!

*snicker*... :)


My wife thought I'd lost the tiny fragments that remain of my mind, because I literally burst out into raucous laughter.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 05, 2015, 11:02:21 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867398
My wife thought I'd lost the tiny fragments that remain of my mind, because I literally burst out into raucous laughter.


Well, I do try to bring a little happiness into our dull, drab lives. :)

Could we even get away with that sort of thing, these days? Or are things just too 'serious', 'artistic', and 'academic' for the likes of us and the happy anarchy we had?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 05, 2015, 11:07:41 PM
Well, as Qui-Gon Jinn said, "Your focus determines your reality."  When I was in the cities I was still gaming with David T., and GaryCon very, very much feels like an old-timey gaming convention.

And once you get away from the "leading lights" of almost ANY trend, there are still a lot of gamers who just want to play games.

I had a LOVELY time with a bunch of chaps in New York, for instance.

http://blogofholding.com/?series=mornard

Telling the story of how Gary used to pull out his filing cabinet drawers to run the game so all we had was his voice, is a useful anecdote.  Some people hate the idea; some think it's awesome.

Game with the latter.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 05, 2015, 11:30:03 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867401
Well, as Qui-Gon Jinn said, "Your focus determines your reality."  When I was in the cities I was still gaming with David T., and GaryCon very, very much feels like an old-timey gaming convention.

And once you get away from the "leading lights" of almost ANY trend, there are still a lot of gamers who just want to play games.

I had a LOVELY time with a bunch of chaps in New York, for instance.

http://blogofholding.com/?series=mornard

Telling the story of how Gary used to pull out his filing cabinet drawers to run the game so all we had was his voice, is a useful anecdote.  Some people hate the idea; some think it's awesome.

Game with the latter.

Oh, I agree. And the series of blog posts really should be on everybody's reading list for the flavor of what used to go on at the game table. I like Gary's 'radio theater approach', too - wonderful!!!

I also agree with you about Gary Con - it's a great convention, and a wonderful opportunity to get the feel of what Gen Con used to be like back in the day. I've enjoyed your own posts on this past one - it was a lot of fun, if a lot of work. I'm looking forward to your post on my EPT game in the Jakalla underworld - you guys gave me the fight of my life down there, and I didn't think I'd be able to stay ahead of you for much longer. Wow; incredible game play - and by a 'scratch crew', too.

I will miss things like that; I will not be at Gary Con in the future. Luke had asked me to run an all-Tekumel room this coming year, with lots of displays about Phil and our games back in the day. What he had in mind was an all-Tekumel show like what Paul Stormberg does with the 'Legends of Wargaming' area; Luke specifically asked me  to include the Tekumel Foundation in my programming, so as to give them some exposure, so I did.

The Foundation came back with all sorts of objections to my being allowed to appear at the convention and speak in public about our times with Phil. After six months of increasingly bizarre goings-on and threats being made, I simply pulled the plug on the thing; the 'terms and conditions' that were being imposed by the Foundation were such that Gary Con would have had some very real problems; and once the people who had volunteered to help me with running games, setting up displays, and general logistics found out that the Foundation was involved, they all refused to participate - too many of them had gotten burned by the Foundation over and at Phil's memorial event, and simply refused to have anything to do with them.

I couldn't do it all by myself, and after I'd invested the six months worth of work and over $800 in technology assets (remember how the little LCD projector tried to cope? I got some large LCD screens to solve the problem) we just had to cut our losses and give up.

So it goes. I hope Gary Con does well - Luke and Ernie deserve a few good breaks.

So, when you go to write up the story of your adventure, be aware that it's my last - and quite possibly best - time out at a convention. I am not willing to put anyone through what Luke went through at the hands of the Foundation; this is supposed to be a fun hobby, after all...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 05, 2015, 11:42:48 PM
Double plus ungood.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 05, 2015, 11:43:56 PM
You know, you could always go to GaryCon and just PLAY.

I for one would gladly join you in a game of Herbert George's "Little Wars," complete with Authentic-By-Gad BRITAINS' 4.7 inch naval rifles.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 05, 2015, 11:52:02 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867407
Double plus ungood.

Yeah, that's a good summary of the past months since March's convention. I wasted a lot for time and energy, as well as lot of blood pressure and money. Things just kept getting more and more bizarre, and it was just too much for a lot of people. The Foundation didn't make any friends, sorry to say.

Sigh.

What really made it sad was that during the research into the files for the lawyers, I found a letter from Tadashi to Phil, telling Phil why Tekumel needed me to be involved with the thing - as you pointed out, over the years I've done a lot to promote Tekumel as a world setting and as a place where we had a lot of fun. He pointed this out to Phil in quite explicit terms, and predicted what was going to happen in the future to Tekumel as a product line. Sadly, all of his predictions came true in the middle to late 1990s, which is why we're where we are today.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2015, 12:05:58 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867408
You know, you could always go to GaryCon and just PLAY.

I for one would gladly join you in a game of Herbert George's "Little Wars," complete with Authentic-By-Gad BRITAINS' 4.7 inch naval rifles.

Much as I'd love to, I simply can't afford it. I managed to bring in the last one for just under $500 - gas, food, hotel, convention badge - and that was before my department got reorganized and I had to take a pay cut. It's all of my disposable income for a year, and most of my disposable vacation time as well. The copays for The Missus' health care are what's killing us; while she seems to have beaten the cancer for a year, we have to pay for continued screening and monitoring. What with all of her other health issues, we just don't have the money available to do much of anything over and above the normal course of life.

And I'm not getting any younger. Last time around, I only took a few days off, and worked both weeks as 'bookends' around the convention. Huge mistake - I should have taken a full two weeks off, and given myself time to recover. I got very badly dehydrated on Saturday - which was stupid of me, because I had a case of bottled water out in the van - and it took the better part of a month just to get back on an even keel. The after-effects of the brain bleed and the related surgery also are part of this. I just don't have the stamina and energy that I used to; I get tired pretty quickly these days. I have to really be careful with how I budget my time.

And I can't accept any anything like somebody giving me some help with gas money or hotel rooms, because the Tekumel Foundation regards that as "unauthorized use of the Tekumel IP for compensation"; I am tired of threats. I can't afford to have a lawyer at my elbow all the time, to tell me what I can and can't do.

So, I game here at the house, on my own table, and let the world go by.

Fuck 'em.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 06, 2015, 12:37:49 AM
I understand the whole time and money thing.  David and I staggered through last GaryCon like a couple of zombies, and I ended up sleeping till noon on Saturday.

And I should have paid more attention on Saturday and made you eat before the game; self care never WAS your strong point, montressor.

And I understand the whole notion of having to count your days off like your last six rounds of ammo when the Fuzzy Wuzzies are attacking.  We never thought that we'd still be leading what Conan called a "starveling existence" at our age, did we?  To quote you, "To get a good job, get a good education, and other lies of our times."

I, Rudolph, will topple this sick society.

And yes, playing your own damn games in your own damn basement and having fun is indeed the best revenge.

Meanwhile, the downbound goods train has just arrived.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: yosemitemike on December 06, 2015, 01:04:01 AM
I'm getting too damn old for cons myself.  I'm definitely too old to share a room with 5 other guys to make it cheaper.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 06, 2015, 08:49:34 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867415

And I understand the whole notion of having to count your days off like your last six rounds of ammo when the Fuzzy Wuzzies are attacking.  We never thought that we'd still be leading what Conan called a "starveling existence" at our age, did we?  To quote you, "To get a good job, get a good education, and other lies of our times."

To not get WAY off topic, I'll just +1.

Here's hoping that some time is reserved for recording "ancient times" for posterity.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2015, 02:15:44 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;867475
To not get WAY off topic, I'll just +1.

Here's hoping that some time is reserved for recording "ancient times" for posterity.
=


Agreed; let's get back to the questions and answers.

Yes; a lot of time is being dedicated to that, and I'm getting a lot of writing done. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron Opal on December 06, 2015, 04:43:15 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;866412
Very broadly put, the Twenty want to keep Tekumel and the other 772 worlds in their current pocket dimensions, as part of their 'war' against the Lords of Humanspace. The Three want to return Tekumel to normal space, hence the background conflict of universe-spanning empires that Phil enjoyed - the Three are similar to Arisia, the Twenty to Boskone.


That sounds vaguely familiar, and you make it sound like the Three aren't as sinister as they are made out? (Heresy!)

So, are the Shadow Gods just other entities that are watching the strife?

Arisia? Boskone? That sounds familiar, too, but I can't place them. Do they involve the Lensmen?

Quote
Now, there are a lot more side issues and details to the whole subject, and I could go on forever about it - if you're local to me, then coffee and pastries would be in order. :)


I just may have to arrange that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on December 06, 2015, 05:48:29 PM
Quote from: Baron Opal;867531
Arisia? Boskone? That sounds familiar, too, but I can't place them. Do they involve the Lensmen?
Bingo.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2015, 06:20:04 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867415
I understand the whole time and money thing.  David and I staggered through last GaryCon like a couple of zombies, and I ended up sleeping till noon on Saturday.

And I should have paid more attention on Saturday and made you eat before the game; self care never WAS your strong point, montressor.

And I understand the whole notion of having to count your days off like your last six rounds of ammo when the Fuzzy Wuzzies are attacking.  We never thought that we'd still be leading what Conan called a "starveling existence" at our age, did we?  To quote you, "To get a good job, get a good education, and other lies of our times."

I, Rudolph, will topple this sick society.

And yes, playing your own damn games in your own damn basement and having fun is indeed the best revenge.

Meanwhile, the downbound goods train has just arrived.


Yep; that's life, in a nutshell. This is all very true, and I'm feeling it today - it's my 59th birthday.

Gaming here at the house will continue, and visitors may be amused. I had a 'tour group; in a while back, and it was great fun. That may be the way forward, although the patient Missus - She Who Is Queen Of The Internet - managed to get me a super-duper modern Mac laptop for a $100, and a friends got me a very nice HP laptop; I ay yet realize my dream of being able to host games on-line! I like my gaming style, and I will continue to include anyone who likes it as well.

Where's my shunters' pole? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2015, 06:21:18 PM
Quote from: yosemitemike;867422
I'm getting too damn old for cons myself.  I'm definitely too old to share a room with 5 other guys to make it cheaper.


Agreed. I have trouble making it to the local con, let alone travel...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2015, 06:23:11 PM
Quote from: Baron Opal;867531
That sounds vaguely familiar, and you make it sound like the Three aren't as sinister as they are made out? (Heresy!)

So, are the Shadow Gods just other entities that are watching the strife?

Arisia? Boskone? That sounds familiar, too, but I can't place them. Do they involve the Lensmen?

I just may have to arrange that.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

(This thread has not been in vain.)

No problem; I am home all the time on weekends, and the game room is a pretty decent little place; see the photos on my Photobucket page. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 06, 2015, 06:24:36 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867407
Double plus ungood.

+1 to that.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;867412
Much as I'd love to, I simply can't afford it. I managed to bring in the last one for just under $500 - gas, food, hotel, convention badge - and that was before my department got reorganized and I had to take a pay cut. It's all of my disposable income for a year, and most of my disposable vacation time as well. The copays for The Missus' health care are what's killing us; while she seems to have beaten the cancer for a year, we have to pay for continued screening and monitoring. What with all of her other health issues, we just don't have the money available to do much of anything over and above the normal course of life.

And I'm not getting any younger. Last time around, I only took a few days off, and worked both weeks as 'bookends' around the convention. Huge mistake - I should have taken a full two weeks off, and given myself time to recover. I got very badly dehydrated on Saturday - which was stupid of me, because I had a case of bottled water out in the van - and it took the better part of a month just to get back on an even keel. The after-effects of the brain bleed and the related surgery also are part of this. I just don't have the stamina and energy that I used to; I get tired pretty quickly these days. I have to really be careful with how I budget my time.

And I can't accept any anything like somebody giving me some help with gas money or hotel rooms, because the Tekumel Foundation regards that as "unauthorized use of the Tekumel IP for compensation"; I am tired of threats. I can't afford to have a lawyer at my elbow all the time, to tell me what I can and can't do.

So, I game here at the house, on my own table, and let the world go by.

Fuck 'em.

I'm sure that this simple fact, i brought up in a bigger forum, would really hurt the public image they're trying to project... The Foundation was definitely trying to project a friendlier attitude in the RPG.net thread.
Either way, sorry to hear about your troubles. I couldn't make it to your cons anyway, and never was able to, but that's because I'm on the other side of the globe. Still, sorry to hear you can't get there, either.

Ah well, forums are the second best replacement...

To bring it back to more cheerful topics, I get the impression that prison and death sentences on Tekumel are generally of the "prison only before process, or after process before execution, exile or slavery are enacted" variety. Longer sentences would exist only if you're important enough we want neither to just brand you as a criminal, nor release you with a whipping, nor execute you. And then how much disposable income you have to bribe guards might lead to the prison conditions varying wildly.
Am I right?

Also, is the Hirilakte Arena used as punishment, or for the settling of court cases in the absence of proof?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2015, 06:24:42 PM
Quote from: Bren;867545
Bingo.


It does seem we have a winner, doesn't it! Hurrah!!! :)

Nobody's asking about The Pink Tree Of Death, though; I'm a little disappointed. (sniff.)

:)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2015, 06:43:36 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;867553
+1 to that.

I'm sure that this simple fact, i brought up in a bigger forum, would really hurt the public image they're trying to project... The Foundation was definitely trying to project a friendlier attitude in the RPG.net thread.
Either way, sorry to hear about your troubles. I couldn't make it to your cons anyway, and never was able to, but that's because I'm on the other side of the globe. Still, sorry to hear you can't get there, either.

Ah well, forums are the second best replacement...

To bring it back to more cheerful topics, I get the impression that prison and death sentences on Tekumel are generally of the "prison only before process, or after process before execution, exile or slavery are enacted" variety. Longer sentences would exist only if you're important enough we want neither to just brand you as a criminal, nor release you with a whipping, nor execute you. And then how much disposable income you have to bribe guards might lead to the prison conditions varying wildly.
Am I right?

Also, is the Hirilakte Arena used as punishment, or for the settling of court cases in the absence of proof?


Well, let me address both points.

First, I happen to strongly support the concept of a foundation to manage Phil's legacy. I am not forever; neither was Phil. I have already made plans for what will happen to my Tekumel collection after I pass away; Phil had not, leaving Ambereen stuck with a horrible mess. Ambereen was actually quite up front about it to me: "The Tekumel Foundation would not have these problems if you were in charge." That's because I'm an 'activist' and 'populist', and not an 'elitist'. What's been the issue, even before the Foundation got it's license from the Barker Estate, was the vast divergence of the private face of the organization from the published stated purpose. They went into the thing with no plan, no funding, no organization, and no revenue stream to pay for what they wanted to do. I paid for most of what the Foundation was doing in their early days, and it got to the point where I was all tapped out.

I have no idea why they took their decades long-feud with me into the public arena. They would have had a wonderful room full of goodies at Gary Con (see also the photos of my game room), and they could have had all of the credit and publicity; I do this for the love of the thing, not to 'assume the mantle of the storyteller' and make myself more important or look better. Quite a few people can't get their heads around that - this has been going on for some thirty-five years, and there are folks who still can't figure me out.

Moving on:

Yes, you have it right. Prisons are for people awaiting processing, or for political prisoners who we might need to have around later. And yes, disposable income from one's own purse or that of the clan does make a difference, especially in the local jails where things are usually a lot looser. "Bribing your way out of the cell' is an ancient and established custom.

You do see executions in the arenas on occasion, when the guilty party can be sent out to fight another condemned prisoner. Usually, executions are done outside of town, for ritual reasons. (Check with the Temple of Chiteng for times, places, and who's for the High Ride.)

'Honor duels' happen all the time in the arena, and are a big draw for the crowds. Judicial matters are not an arena thing; if the disputants can't get a court to adjudicate, then they can go off to the arena to settle the matter. This is always a popular event, as it's normally the high-status folks getting dead - usually a real crowd pleaser, especially when the people involved are not very well thought of by the locals.

Need odds for the betting? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 06, 2015, 08:13:51 PM
Oh, I fully support the mission of the Tekumel Foundation to bring as much of Tekumel as possible on my hard drive. What leaves me perplexed at times are their methods:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;867556

Need odds for the betting? :)

1:1 for complete newbies who are about the same reputation-wise? I suspect it might get to 1:20 or more for a condemned prisoner against a dedicated Chiteng follower.
So yeah, I suspect I might need some help with the bets. Especially since I'm not into betting IRL, it would be nice.
I can see some PCs manipulating the betting system, especially if the fights aren't always to the death. And even then, what are Revivification spells for:D?

I wonder also whether there would be precedent for asking your exile to be replaced by a given number of "judicial duels", and whether courts would agree;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 06, 2015, 08:19:47 PM
Quote from: Baron Opal;867531

Arisia? Boskone? That sounds familiar, too, but I can't place them. Do they involve the Lensmen?


 "beams, rods, cones, stilettos, icepicks, corkscrews, knives, forks, and spoons of energy raved against the screens of the Dentless."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 06, 2015, 09:03:46 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867577
"beams, rods, cones, stilettos, icepicks, corkscrews, knives, forks, and spoons of energy raved against the screens of the Dentless."


We have been here before in our dauntless thirst for greater knowledge of Tekumel to bring it from the backstage to the forefront...Thanks again for the reminder. I've been outbid lately on EBay for some great deals on some pulp history(I wasn't about to spend more than $20. My time will come).

Oh, since Chirine has been a tad disappointed...What the heck is The Pink Tree of Death????
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2015, 09:08:54 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;867576
Oh, I fully support the mission of the Tekumel Foundation to bring as much of Tekumel as possible on my hard drive. What leaves me perplexed at times are their methods:).


1:1 for complete newbies who are about the same reputation-wise? I suspect it might get to 1:20 or more for a condemned prisoner against a dedicated Chiteng follower.
So yeah, I suspect I might need some help with the bets. Especially since I'm not into betting IRL, it would be nice.
I can see some PCs manipulating the betting system, especially if the fights aren't always to the death. And even then, what are Revivification spells for:D?

I wonder also whether there would be precedent for asking your exile to be replaced by a given number of "judicial duels", and whether courts would agree;).


Same here. They have some very odd ways of doing things...

Anyway:

No Revivification in judicial matters. Dead is dead, permanently. Your odds are right on, actually, so I think you're fine. Do feel free to ask, though; Cousin Woofle is always happy to be of service.

The courts will agree to anything, if the right palms are greased. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2015, 09:11:11 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867577
"beams, rods, cones, stilettos, icepicks, corkscrews, knives, forks, and spoons of energy raved against the screens of the Dentless."


You do realize you're just making it worse for yourself, here; you know what I could do with this, a bit of Plexiglass, some styrene rod, and some LEDs? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on December 06, 2015, 09:27:35 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;867589
You do realize you're just making it worse for yourself, here; you know what I could do with this, a bit of Plexiglass, some styrene rod, and some LEDs? :)

His heart is pure and his quest for parody remains undaunted.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on December 06, 2015, 09:28:56 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;867587
Oh, since Chirine has been a tad disappointed...What the heck is The Pink Tree of Death????
Indeed oh wise one, tell us of the sartorial, arboreal, funereal Pink Tree of Death.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2015, 09:29:42 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;867587
We have been here before in our dauntless thirst for greater knowledge of Tekumel to bring it from the backstage to the forefront...Thanks again for the reminder. I've been outbid lately on EBay for some great deals on some pulp history(I wasn't about to spend more than $20. My time will come).

Oh, since Chirine has been a tad disappointed...What the heck is The Pink Tree of Death????


1. Stuff ebay; Uncle Hugo's SF Bookstore is on-line, and will ship. Buy there; you won't be sorry.

2. Well, finally; thank you. :)

The Pink Tree Of Death was a stock fixture in all of our games for a very long time. Back in those far-off days of yesteryear, nobody made wargame scenery worth discussing. So, seeing as Woodcraft Hobby was right across the street (and later on, right next door) to The Little Tin Soldier Shoppe, we raided their stocks of model railroad suppiles. A company called 'Life-Like' made sets of 'train set' trees that weren't very good, but were cheap and practically indestructable - the two biggest and most important factors in gaming, at that time. One of the sets was supposed to be "Spring Trees", and featured a shockingly pink tree in the set. Being cheap, we put it on the table.

We had a player who, in every single game where the pink tree was on the table, would put his most powerful and deadly thing under that tree. He did this no matter the period, the rules, the genre, whatever; he always put his best unit/PC/whatever under the pink tree. Every single game. Period.

So, we not being entirely stupid, on the very first turn/move/combat round of the game, would cut loose with everything and anything we had. Arrows, energy bolts, cannon shells, spitwads, you name it - the Pink Tree took it. The tree would be instantly destroyed, of course, being only a tree, and this guy's very bestest Thing Of Doom would be revealed to all of the players - who would then cut loose on the next possible moment, and eradicate the Thing of Doom. After about a year of this - the tree became known as The Pink Tree Of Death, and anything put underneath it was instantly wiped out.

And the guy kept on doing it for years; he never could figure out why we were all laughing so hard every time we had this tree on the table... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2015, 09:32:01 PM
Quote from: Bren;867592
His heart is pure and his quest for parody remains undaunted.


And I can get transparent tableware, too. Just saying. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2015, 09:41:25 PM
Quote from: Bren;867595
Indeed oh wise one, tell us of the sartorial, arboreal, funereal Pink Tree of Death.


To hear is to obey.

And I think you can still get these trees in the cheaper sorts of toy stores, too, so as to be able to have that 'period' feel to your game table. A real Tekumel gamer would light those horrible Swisher Sweets mini-cigars, so as to get that authentic 'Barker's basement stench'; a really devoted Tekumel gamer would also get an elderly Black Labridor, get him all wet, and then set him down in front of the electric space heater alongside some used socks for that really authentic fug. There were some nights where we could not see the ceiling in the game room, and the single 100 watt bulb was hard put to light the action.

Oxygen? What? You're kidding, right?

And you wonder where Phil got the "Creeping Fog Of Doom" spell? Wait until you find out what the elderly Black Labridor had for his dinner. (Honestly, poor old Anubis ate better then we did. Guess how he got his name?)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2015, 09:45:50 PM
Quote from: Bren;867595
Indeed oh wise one, tell us of the sartorial, arboreal, funereal Pink Tree of Death.


And being a nasty, nasty, nasty man, I would never, ever put anything under that same tree, and would let the opposition blast away to their hearts' content - and then drop the rock on their thusly revealed heroes, 'cause all the blasting away would reveal their positions.

"Think tactically", we always said, even at parties and in the Garden of the Weeping Snows... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on December 06, 2015, 09:46:18 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;867602
A real Tekumel gamer would light those horrible Swisher Sweets mini-cigars, so as to get that authentic 'Barker's basement stench'; a really devoted Tekumel gamer would also get an elderly Black Labridor, get him all wet, and then set him down in front of the electric space heater alongside some used socks for that really authentic fug.
Gives a different connotation to "increasing in rank" doesn't it?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;867598
And I can get transparent tableware, too. Just saying. :)
I don't fear your transparent tableware. I hold the Spork of Doom.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2015, 09:56:09 PM
Quote from: Bren;867604
Gives a different connotation to "increasing in rank" doesn't it?


I don't fear your transparent tableware. I hold the Spork of Doom.


Well, it sure wasn't 'going up a level'; if you stood up and took a breath there was a pretty good chance you would pass out. Most of us crawled across the floor to get to the bathroom. It was safer.

Pfui. I am to be laugh, Soft One. Your Spork of Doom holds no fear for me; I have the Four Bowls of the Apocalypse (which I got at the local IKEA along with the Four Plates of Holding and the Four Spoons of the Elements; they all came in a nice bamboo holder that goes nicely into a backpack) and I know how to use them!

Pity stayed his hand. ("It's a pity I've run out of bullets/ bad jokes...")
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on December 06, 2015, 10:49:28 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;867611
Pfui. I am to be laugh, Soft One. Your Spork of Doom holds no fear for me; I have the Four Bowls of the Apocalypse (which I got at the local IKEA along with the Four Plates of Holding and the Four Spoons of the Elements; they all came in a nice bamboo holder that goes nicely into a backpack) and I know how to use them!

Pity stayed his hand. ("It's a pity I've run out of bullets/ bad jokes...")
Running out of bad jokes (or bullets) is a portent of evil to come.

The earth splits and the entrails of a goat were found tied in square knots. The face of the sun blackens and the skies have rained down soggy potato chips.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 06, 2015, 11:17:54 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;867596
1. Stuff ebay; Uncle Hugo's SF Bookstore is on-line, and will ship. Buy there; you won't be sorry.

2. Well, finally; thank you. :)

The Pink Tree Of Death was a stock fixture in all of our games for a very long time. Back in those far-off days of yesteryear, nobody made wargame scenery worth discussing. So, seeing as Woodcraft Hobby was right across the street (and later on, right next door) to The Little Tin Soldier Shoppe, we raided their stocks of model railroad suppiles. A company called 'Life-Like' made sets of 'train set' trees that weren't very good, but were cheap and practically indestructable - the two biggest and most important factors in gaming, at that time. One of the sets was supposed to be "Spring Trees", and featured a shockingly pink tree in the set. Being cheap, we put it on the table.

We had a player who, in every single game where the pink tree was on the table, would put his most powerful and deadly thing under that tree. He did this no matter the period, the rules, the genre, whatever; he always put his best unit/PC/whatever under the pink tree. Every single game. Period.

So, we not being entirely stupid, on the very first turn/move/combat round of the game, would cut loose with everything and anything we had. Arrows, energy bolts, cannon shells, spitwads, you name it - the Pink Tree took it. The tree would be instantly destroyed, of course, being only a tree, and this guy's very bestest Thing Of Doom would be revealed to all of the players - who would then cut loose on the next possible moment, and eradicate the Thing of Doom. After about a year of this - the tree became known as The Pink Tree Of Death, and anything put underneath it was instantly wiped out.

And the guy kept on doing it for years; he never could figure out why we were all laughing so hard every time we had this tree on the table... :)


I checked Hugo's. You mentioned them before...My Dauntless search continues. Alas, they are not to be found there. :0(

As far as Pink Trees of Death go, funny how we are creatures of habit and don't even realize it!!! Good stuff. Isn't The Food of The Suu pink too...

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2015, 11:29:45 PM
Quote from: Bren;867629
Running out of bad jokes (or bullets) is a portent of evil to come.

The earth splits and the entrails of a goat were found tied in square knots. The face of the sun blackens and the skies have rained down soggy potato chips.


 "Wazoo, wazoo! Alas, alackaday!" :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2015, 11:36:05 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;867638
I checked Hugo's. You mentioned them before...My Dauntless search continues. Alas, they are not to be found there. :0(

As far as Pink Trees of Death go, funny how we are creatures of habit and don't even realize it!!! Good stuff. Isn't The Food of The Suu pink too...

H :0)


Phooey! I would have thought Hugo's would have had lots of pulp stuff. I'll see what I can dig up, for you.

Agreed. The Food of the Ssu is usually purple, in the most tasteless colors that phil could find. Luckily for us, the "Life-Like" brand also used to have boxes of dyed lichen that we used in a lot of games, and one of the sets has a fist full of dire purple stuff that got used all the time for Food of the Ssu. I think I may yet have some; the stuff tends to dry out and get brittle over time, and I think my hoard may have crumbled away...

And, of course, if one is doing the Garden of the Weeping Snows, where everything is white on white on white, this is the perfect time of year for picking up the required scenery; it does get cheaper at the after-Christmas sales, of course. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: yosemitemike on December 06, 2015, 11:42:26 PM
You guys really went all out on the props and models.  That's something that has kind of been lost at least where I live.  I know a few people who do that sort of thing but they are all miniatures wargamers.  Most of the play 40k because that has been the dominant miniatures game around here since it came out.  My usual paper maps and cardboard standup pawns seems kind of (very) lame and janky in comparison.  

Do you know of any good resources for someone who isn't very good at that sort of thing?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on December 06, 2015, 11:46:04 PM
Happy birthday Chirine! :)

I hope you enjoy your cake...I mean

"Cry Havoc! And let slip the dogs of war! That cake shall not survive this day!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 07, 2015, 12:38:38 AM
Quote from: yosemitemike;867648
You guys really went all out on the props and models.  That's something that has kind of been lost at least where I live.  I know a few people who do that sort of thing but they are all miniatures wargamers.  Most of the play 40k because that has been the dominant miniatures game around here since it came out.  My usual paper maps and cardboard standup pawns seems kind of (very) lame and janky in comparison.  

Do you know of any good resources for someone who isn't very good at that sort of thing?


Well, thank you! We enjoyed doing stuff like this, as we felt that this sort of thing added to our enjoyment of games. (Gronan can tell you more about his adventures at the hands of my little creations, of course!) I think it's because we all pretty much came out of the 'miniatures' / 'wargaming'  tradition (this was about 1974 - 1976, remember) where it was considered to be a 'Custom of the House' for the person hosting the game to put on a good show. Because I'm pretty handy with an Exacto knife, I tended to build stuff for games - to the point where an announcement of one of my games was greeted with antcipation, fear, and dread. I just like building stuff. :)

Props were something I got from Phil, who loved to show off his collections of the odd and wonderful. I've tried to continue that in my own games, which is why I have so much stuff in the game rooms... :)

Quote from: yosemitemike;867648
My usual paper maps and cardboard standup pawns seems kind of (very) lame and janky in comparison.


I'm sorry; please don't take this the wrong way, but I wince a little every time I read something like this. Paper maps and cardboard standups are a vital part of our hobby and it's history - remember that the fearsome Golden Dragon of Blackmoor, the redoubtable Gertie herself, is a lump of grey Plasticine clay. If what you and your game group does is what you like, then your game table is not lame and janky; the important thing is that you are playing. Everything else is set dressing in our little productions. If it works for you, then play!!! I happen to love what I make, and if that is something that amuses and inspires you then I'll be happy to help you out.

Sources? Pet shops, garage sales, rummage sales, little out of the way shops, dealers' tables at conventions, and of course - the Internet. The important thing is what's in your imagination; with a little practice, you'll be just like me - looking at a Mayan temple in the pet store, intended for hermit crabs, and I start to think how I can use this in a game. Or the dragon's head big enough to walk into (if you happen to be 25mm tall) just like in one of the Conan movies.

Think about what you do in your games, and then have a look around you. You'd be amazed at what you can find.

Let me do a list for you, too. Must go and rescue Daughter #2; she's gotten stranded... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 07, 2015, 01:00:37 AM
The other thing about the Pink Tree of Death is that since it was always easy to spot it became the central "reference point" for everything too.  "My Tiger I is hull down behind the hill 10 inches to the East of the Pink Tree of Death."  "The artillery barrage will start 15 inches North and 6 inches West of the Pink Tree of Death and walk one inch North per salvo."   "The MI retrieval boat will land 34 inches South and 11 inches East of the Pink Tree of Death."  "The Mongol horse archers will move straight East until they are directly north of the Pink Tree of Death and then halt to fire."

You get the idea.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: yosemitemike on December 07, 2015, 01:06:24 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;867665
Well, thank you!


You have done some really cool stuff.


Quote from: chirine ba kal;867665

I'm sorry; please don't take this the wrong way, but I wince a little every time I read something like this. Paper maps and cardboard standups are a vital part of our hobby and it's history - remember that the fearsome Golden Dragon of Blackmoor, the redoubtable Gertie herself, is a lump of grey Plasticine clay. If what you and your game group does is what you like, then your game table is not lame and janky; the important thing is that you are playing. Everything else is set dressing in our little productions. If it works for you, then play!!! I happen to love what I make, and if that is something that amuses and inspires you then I'll be happy to help you out.


It works for us and my players have fun or at least they keep coming back and joining my games.  It doesn't help on that front that I am kind of a vagabond DM.  My user name isn't just a name.  I actually live in Yosemite.  One of my games takes place at a player's house, two take place at a store and one pretty much takes place at McDonald's.  I have to cart everything with me.  A little more visual oomph would be nice though.  

Quote from: chirine ba kal;867665

Think about what you do in your games, and then have a look around you. You'd be amazed at what you can find.

Let me do a list for you, too. Must go and rescue Daughter #2; she's gotten stranded... :)


I will have to start consciously doing that.  Thanks for the help.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 07, 2015, 01:55:54 AM
Quote from: yosemitemike;867648
Do you know of any good resources for someone who isn't very good at that sort of thing?

Right! Back in after rescue!

First off, your biggest resource is your gamers and your games. What happens in your games is what drives what you need. Your imagination runs a very close second.

Cool scenery: Pet stores, in the aquarium and terrarium sections. The shops go through phases, so you'll see times when there's Mayan, Asian, Tiki, and other stuff cycles through. Vegetation is also in this section - look for stuff on clearance. Crafts stores also sell vegetation, in their 'floral' sections. Most of the stuff I use is from there. Crafts stores will also often have 'seasonal' stuff like 'Christmas villages'; there's a lot of useful stuff, on sale after the holidays.

Cool playing pieces: Miniatures, if you like that kind of thing like I do, but also pre-painted stuff is very useful. Game shops, usually, but keep your eyes open - I've gotten some very handy items at 'dollar stores'. Think outside the box; the lines of specifically Tekumel miniatures are a little sparse in some ways, so look at other lines;  this applies to any world setting.

Props: Flea markets, rummage sales, small shops. Here in the Twin Cities, as have a number of communities like the Tibetans, and you can find some of the most amazing stuff. I got my infamous scroll case this way - it's a real Tibetan scroll case, so why not? Or my very best prop: a Chinese combination lock. It's an antique, I think; it looks old. So, the party is trying to loot a temple treasury, and one of the players says "I want to open the chest. What do I roll?". I smiled, handed them the lock, and said "Have at it". Near panic erupted. While the would be lock-picker went to work on the lock, I kept going around the table, having everyone roll to see if the Temple guards showed up. Ten people were sweating buckets in seconds, as everybody kept listening at the door and urging the lock-picker to get a move on in strangled whispers. Eight minutes and thirty seconds of real time later, she had the lock open and the party was grabbing handfuls of loot just so they could get out of there.

The lock cost me $20. Was it worth it? Oh, yes, you bet it was.

Check out surplus places; you can often get things like whiteboards cheap. I got thirty Gelatinous Cubes from one of my favorite surplus places; they were originally sold as 'glass ice cubes', and were priced at a quarter a piece. So...

Imagine, when you see something; "Can I use this in a game?"

EDIT: oh, and IKEA! They have the oddest stuff in the back corners, and I got the LED lights we use in night games there.

Is this helping? Would you like something more specific?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 07, 2015, 01:57:43 AM
Quote from: Bren;867651
Happy birthday Chirine! :)

I hope you enjoy your cake...I mean

"Cry Havoc! And let slip the dogs of war! That cake shall not survive this day!"


Thank you!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 07, 2015, 02:00:28 AM
Quote from: yosemitemike;867675
You have done some really cool stuff.

It works for us and my players have fun or at least they keep coming back and joining my games.  It doesn't help on that front that I am kind of a vagabond DM.  My user name isn't just a name.  I actually live in Yosemite.  One of my games takes place at a player's house, two take place at a store and one pretty much takes place at McDonald's.  I have to cart everything with me.  A little more visual oomph would be nice though.  

I will have to start consciously doing that.  Thanks for the help.


Thank you again; I am a very visual person, and I just like making things for people's amusement.

Ah! Check out surplus places - I found a lot of very good carrying cases that way, that I used for years to move back and forth from my house to Phil's basement. it's possible to be totally mobile - you just have to think it through.

And happy to help; it's what I'm here for... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: yosemitemike on December 07, 2015, 02:27:26 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;867680

Cool scenery: Pet stores, in the aquarium and terrarium sections. The shops go through phases, so you'll see times when there's Mayan, Asian, Tiki, and other stuff cycles through. Vegetation is also in this section - look for stuff on clearance. Crafts stores also sell vegetation, in their 'floral' sections. Most of the stuff I use is from there. Crafts stores will also often have 'seasonal' stuff like 'Christmas villages'; there's a lot of useful stuff, on sale after the holidays.


These are all really good ideas especially the aquarium one.  I don't know why I didn't think of that myself.  

Quote from: chirine ba kal;867680

Props: Flea markets, rummage sales, small shops. Here in the Twin Cities, as have a number of communities like the Tibetans, and you can find some of the most amazing stuff.


Pickings are a little slim in the Central Valley and getting to things on the weekend is difficult because of my schedule but there are thrift shops and such around.


Quote from: chirine ba kal;867680

Is this helping? Would you like something more specific?


This is great stuff.  I'm sure I'm not the only one reading it and getting ideas.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 07, 2015, 03:20:36 AM
First, Happy Birthday, Chirine ba Kal!
May your cake never cause you holesterol problems, daughters never cause you undue distress, and may wives be in a gentle mood and not inclined to argue!

(I imagine people on Tekumel would say more or less this, too...)
Quote from: chirine ba kal;867588
Same here. They have some very odd ways of doing things...

Anyway:

No Revivification in judicial matters. Dead is dead, permanently. Your odds are right on, actually, so I think you're fine. Do feel free to ask, though; Cousin Woofle is always happy to be of service.

Well, the arena isn't that big on the Tsolei Islands, and we're still there, so that's more a theory.
Revivification wouldn't apply in judicial matters, but I imagine it might well apply in a less formal set-up where debts are cleaned via the arena.

Quote
The courts will agree to anything, if the right palms are greased. :)

Right. How did I forget the Rule Zero of all courts everywhere:D?


Quote from: chirine ba kal;867589
You do realize you're just making it worse for yourself, here; you know what I could do with this, a bit of Plexiglass, some styrene rod, and some LEDs? :)

What can you do with it;)?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;867602
To hear is to obey.

And I think you can still get these trees in the cheaper sorts of toy stores, too, so as to be able to have that 'period' feel to your game table. A real Tekumel gamer would light those horrible Swisher Sweets mini-cigars, so as to get that authentic 'Barker's basement stench'; a really devoted Tekumel gamer would also get an elderly Black Labridor, get him all wet, and then set him down in front of the electric space heater alongside some used socks for that really authentic fug. There were some nights where we could not see the ceiling in the game room, and the single 100 watt bulb was hard put to light the action.

Oxygen? What? You're kidding, right?

And you wonder where Phil got the "Creeping Fog Of Doom" spell? Wait until you find out what the elderly Black Labridor had for his dinner. (Honestly, poor old Anubis ate better then we did. Guess how he got his name?)

I guess I'm not a Real Tekumel Gamer.
If I decide to strive, what colour were Phil's clothes when he was running:D?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;867603

"Think tactically", we always said, even at parties and in the Garden of the Weeping Snows... :)

Shhht, you risk being suspected in pro-socialcombat leanings;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on December 07, 2015, 05:49:06 AM
As a long time minis gamer I can tell you that imagination works wonders when it comes to repurposing all manner of junk into stuff useful on a game table. Polystyrene packaging covered in filler (to avoid the melting issue) and then painted using a cheap spray paint can from Walmart does duty as a hill or fortification. The pet store has loads of marvellous resin or plaster creations designed for fish but perfectly usable as statues or idols. Plastic flowers/leaves/foliage can be turned into dense jungle by being inserted into a base and placed on the tabletop. Trot along to a minis gaming convention for plenty of ideas on recycling household junk into usable terrain features.

Michael's discount offers are your best friend when it comes to looking for stuff - you don't even need to play close to full price and the stuff is cheap anyway.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 07, 2015, 07:50:59 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;867681
Thank you!!!


Otuléngba(my extent in Bethorm linguistics)!!! Many more Bringer of Flame!!!
All the best always.

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron Opal on December 07, 2015, 02:49:29 PM
Okay, having never read any of the Lensmen stories it looks like that's the next order of business.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 07, 2015, 06:05:07 PM
Oh, and happy birthday, Montressor.  Congratulations on surviving yet one more year of slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 07, 2015, 08:48:51 PM
Also, I hope you ate and drank until you were about to be sick, gorging yourself on such delicacies as chocolate cake, tater salad, and Ormloo-burgers.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: djhyland on December 07, 2015, 09:04:14 PM
Allow me to add to the chorus of birthday wishes. Happy birthday, Chirine!

While browsing around on Tekumel-related searches, I came across the Spiegel Online article for the Professor's memorial. Firing up Google Translate and reading it was pretty cool, but the pictures they included were the coolest. This one, in particular-- http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fantasy-welt-so-erfand-professor-barker-tekumel-fotostrecke-46663-7.html --is awesome. (Your armor is excellent, by the way!) Costuming differences aside, it looks much like some of my best memories from playing in live-action Vampire games.

Never fear, I'm getting to my question: it looks like a ton of work went into costuming for this picture, and that said costumes were not just a one-off thing. How often did you all get into costume? I mean, I imagine that getting into costume for every Thursday night would have been impractical, especially with how cramped the gaming space is described as. Was it just for special occasions, or conventions, or what?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;867602
And I think you can still get these trees in the cheaper sorts of toy stores, too, so as to be able to have that 'period' feel to your game table. A real Tekumel gamer would light those horrible Swisher Sweets mini-cigars, so as to get that authentic 'Barker's basement stench'; a really devoted Tekumel gamer would also get an elderly Black Labridor, get him all wet, and then set him down in front of the electric space heater alongside some used socks for that really authentic fug. There were some nights where we could not see the ceiling in the game room, and the single 100 watt bulb was hard put to light the action.


My wife looked at me very strangely when I started laughing at this description, and I must have lost the effect when explaining it to her second-hand. Still, this is hilarious, especially since I've gamed in similar dismal circumstances. Had I known then that I was playing in a true Phil-approved environment, I would have been more enthusiastic about it though!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 08, 2015, 02:59:16 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867672
The other thing about the Pink Tree of Death is that since it was always easy to spot it became the central "reference point" for everything too.  "My Tiger I is hull down behind the hill 10 inches to the East of the Pink Tree of Death."  "The artillery barrage will start 15 inches North and 6 inches West of the Pink Tree of Death and walk one inch North per salvo."   "The MI retrieval boat will land 34 inches South and 11 inches East of the Pink Tree of Death."  "The Mongol horse archers will move straight East until they are directly north of the Pink Tree of Death and then halt to fire."

You get the idea.


Yep. And that poor tree stood there and took it. For years. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 08, 2015, 03:00:51 AM
Quote from: yosemitemike;867686
These are all really good ideas especially the aquarium one.  I don't know why I didn't think of that myself.  

Pickings are a little slim in the Central Valley and getting to things on the weekend is difficult because of my schedule but there are thrift shops and such around.

This is great stuff.  I'm sure I'm not the only one reading it and getting ideas.


Understood; keep your eyes open, and imagine... :)

And I hope others find this useful too! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 08, 2015, 03:05:54 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;867696
First, Happy Birthday, Chirine ba Kal!
May your cake never cause you holesterol problems, daughters never cause you undue distress, and may wives be in a gentle mood and not inclined to argue!

(I imagine people on Tekumel would say more or less this, too...)

I guess I'm not a Real Tekumel Gamer.
If I decide to strive, what colour were Phil's clothes when he was running:D?


Thank you! I feel that I have been really blessed; five adopted daughters over the years, and now several grandchildren - we have our own lineage / clan going. And The Missus, who has been with me and supporting Tekumel for over 25 years.

Yes, they would ! :)

A white t-shirt and khaki slacks in the summer; a pull over sweater on top of this in the winter. (Ask Gronan about the night Phil set himself on fire.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 08, 2015, 03:07:47 AM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;867715
As a long time minis gamer I can tell you that imagination works wonders when it comes to repurposing all manner of junk into stuff useful on a game table. Polystyrene packaging covered in filler (to avoid the melting issue) and then painted using a cheap spray paint can from Walmart does duty as a hill or fortification. The pet store has loads of marvellous resin or plaster creations designed for fish but perfectly usable as statues or idols. Plastic flowers/leaves/foliage can be turned into dense jungle by being inserted into a base and placed on the tabletop. Trot along to a minis gaming convention for plenty of ideas on recycling household junk into usable terrain features.

Michael's discount offers are your best friend when it comes to looking for stuff - you don't even need to play close to full price and the stuff is cheap anyway.


Agreed! 'mis-mixed' paint at the DIY or hardware / ironmongers is your friend - cheap, and in the colors you need if you are patient.

Secrets of gaming revealed here for you, no extra charge... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 08, 2015, 03:11:40 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;867723
Otuléngba(my extent in Bethorm linguistics)!!! Many more Bringer of Flame!!!
All the best always.

H :0)


Thank you! I am getting a lot written, too; the stories are really flowing, these days! I am currently thrashing through Chirine's most recent wedding night; as usual, nothing went according to plan. Everybody did have a good time, though, and we managed not to burn down the place. Kind of. Well, all right, but just a little. And Harchar didn't get all the tableware; we locked most of it up. And he said he was just staying in form. Yep. Right. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 08, 2015, 03:12:35 AM
Quote from: Baron Opal;867783
Okay, having never read any of the Lensmen stories it looks like that's the next order of business.


Wonderful! I think you'll get some ideas, too...:)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 08, 2015, 03:13:25 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867824
Oh, and happy birthday, Montressor.  Congratulations on surviving yet one more year of slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.


Thank you! Not dead, yet! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 08, 2015, 03:19:53 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867847
Also, I hope you ate and drank until you were about to be sick, gorging yourself on such delicacies as chocolate cake, tater salad, and Ormloo-burgers.


Oh, I did; steak and eggs for breakfast, shrimp for lunch, Crystal Garden goodies for dinner, and large doses of chocolate to ballast it all down. I had a grand day; I feel quite pleased with myself, actually... :)

And I have my own mithril-plate table spoon too! And a lovely tiffin-box to be carried by the dabba-wallah on our next adventure! We'll travel in style, exploring Tekumel, courtesy of IKEA and World Market - where I get all my adventuring gear!

(Seriously - IKEA has tents, 10' poles, lanterns, a 100' coil of rope, and all the other stuff you need for dungeon crawls in comfort!)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 08, 2015, 03:48:44 AM
Quote from: djhyland;867849
Allow me to add to the chorus of birthday wishes. Happy birthday, Chirine!

While browsing around on Tekumel-related searches, I came across the Spiegel Online article for the Professor's memorial. Firing up Google Translate and reading it was pretty cool, but the pictures they included were the coolest. This one, in particular-- http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fantasy-welt-so-erfand-professor-barker-tekumel-fotostrecke-46663-7.html --is awesome. (Your armor is excellent, by the way!) Costuming differences aside, it looks much like some of my best memories from playing in live-action Vampire games.

Never fear, I'm getting to my question: it looks like a ton of work went into costuming for this picture, and that said costumes were not just a one-off thing. How often did you all get into costume? I mean, I imagine that getting into costume for every Thursday night would have been impractical, especially with how cramped the gaming space is described as. Was it just for special occasions, or conventions, or what?



My wife looked at me very strangely when I started laughing at this description, and I must have lost the effect when explaining it to her second-hand. Still, this is hilarious, especially since I've gamed in similar dismal circumstances. Had I known then that I was playing in a true Phil-approved environment, I would have been more enthusiastic about it though!

Thank you! And thank you for looking at our photos!

That particular one is from Minicon in 1987, where we surprised Phil by most of us shpwing up as our PCs in costume. (Tony used to ruin my good towels with his skull make-up, but he was such a good Priest of Sarku) We just liked to have fun, and when we built Chirine's armor, we all thought that we were on to A Good Thing. I should note that while I made the mail, my lovely molded breastplate was done by none other then Gronan himself. We made something like twenty or so costumes, and about half of them survive in my collection - I have mannequins to display them with, as you can see on my Photobucket page.

Thank you for the compliment - Tekumel costumes are actually pretty easy to make, once you break them down into their components. My armor is kind of an exception, as it's a pretty ornate thing, but even there it's not hard to build something like that if you have the right tools and the time; my suit got started in 1982, and you can see what we got to by 1987. I still have to make the kilt of plaques to finish the armor - that's a summer project.

For most everybody else, it's T-tunics and kilts for men and skirts and choli-style tops for women. Very easy to make, and we always built 'street-legal' versions of costumes so that there would be no problems at conventions and parties. we did have one Priestess of Thumis who did a 'proper' costume; it was at this convention, and Phil made the mistake of daring her to leave the choli top off and be "a proper Tsolyani lady". She did, for the rest of the night, and Phil was speechless - he nearly swallowed his cigar. Ambereen simply snorted and told him he should have kept his mouth shut: "That'll teach you!" (By the way, that's her and Phil at my 25th birthday party. They came dressed to the nines, and we all stood there in awe. Phil's robes were the ones he'd worn on pilgrimage to Mecca.)

Tekumel costumes are all about accessories. Collars of plaques, belts, weapons, and jewelry are all easy to find, and really make the costumes. I can fill you in on all the details, and I think we still have all the patterns that The Missus did; she was our cutter.

We wore our costumes for parties and conventions - LARPs hadn't been invented yet, formally. We did have parties where we showed up as our PCs; the 'custome of the house' was that you were you while in 'regular' clothes, and as PCs when in costume.  It was all great fun - we even tried Tsolyani cooking.

We also did a lot of convention shows, as this was all great fun and good advertising. This is how I managed to trade Dave Arneson for three dancing girls at an Origins convention. (The photo was taken on the Sunday of the convention by Dave Arneson.) Viz, back when I had hair and a dumb look on my face - I was not expecting this:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BQ_6mG9m9bQ/TXpBiFk_LnI/AAAAAAAAAII/J0P9AOOOYKo/s1600/Origins82-1.jpg)

We didn't wear these costumes for regular gaming - we went for comfort, for that. My armor is 38 punds all up, and while I have worn it for 12 to 16 hours at conevntions, it's a little confining. And, as you point out, we didn't want to get our fancy duds all smelly... :)

Does this help? Am I even starting to answer your questions?

(Foot note: I am sorry about the huge size of the photo - I had no idea it would be so big. Is there a way to keep photos down to a reasonable size? I am not very web- or computer-literate, so any advice would be welcome!)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 08, 2015, 03:35:20 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;867896
Thank you! And thank you for looking at our photos!

That particular one is from Minicon in 1987, where we surprised Phil by most of us shpwing up as our PCs in costume. (Tony used to ruin my good towels with his skull make-up, but he was such a good Priest of Sarku) We just liked to have fun, and when we built Chirine's armor, we all thought that we were on to A Good Thing. I should note that while I made the mail, my lovely molded breastplate was done by none other then Gronan himself. We made something like twenty or so costumes, and about half of them survive in my collection - I have mannequins to display them with, as you can see on my Photobucket page.

Thank you for the compliment - Tekumel costumes are actually pretty easy to make, once you break them down into their components. My armor is kind of an exception, as it's a pretty ornate thing, but even there it's not hard to build something like that if you have the right tools and the time; my suit got started in 1982, and you can see what we got to by 1987. I still have to make the kilt of plaques to finish the armor - that's a summer project.

For most everybody else, it's T-tunics and kilts for men and skirts and choli-style tops for women. Very easy to make, and we always built 'street-legal' versions of costumes so that there would be no problems at conventions and parties. we did have one Priestess of Thumis who did a 'proper' costume; it was at this convention, and Phil made the mistake of daring her to leave the choli top off and be "a proper Tsolyani lady". She did, for the rest of the night, and Phil was speechless - he nearly swallowed his cigar. Ambereen simply snorted and told him he should have kept his mouth shut: "That'll teach you!" (By the way, that's her and Phil at my 25th birthday party. They came dressed to the nines, and we all stood there in awe. Phil's robes were the ones he'd worn on pilgrimage to Mecca.)

Tekumel costumes are all about accessories. Collars of plaques, belts, weapons, and jewelry are all easy to find, and really make the costumes. I can fill you in on all the details, and I think we still have all the patterns that The Missus did; she was our cutter.

We wore our costumes for parties and conventions - LARPs hadn't been invented yet, formally. We did have parties where we showed up as our PCs; the 'custome of the house' was that you were you while in 'regular' clothes, and as PCs when in costume.  It was all great fun - we even tried Tsolyani cooking.

We also did a lot of convention shows, as this was all great fun and good advertising. This is how I managed to trade Dave Arneson for three dancing girls at an Origins convention. (The photo was taken on the Sunday of the convention by Dave Arneson.) Viz, back when I had hair and a dumb look on my face - I was not expecting this:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BQ_6mG9m9bQ/TXpBiFk_LnI/AAAAAAAAAII/J0P9AOOOYKo/s1600/Origins82-1.jpg)

We didn't wear these costumes for regular gaming - we went for comfort, for that. My armor is 38 punds all up, and while I have worn it for 12 to 16 hours at conevntions, it's a little confining. And, as you point out, we didn't want to get our fancy duds all smelly... :)

Does this help? Am I even starting to answer your questions?

(Foot note: I am sorry about the huge size of the photo - I had no idea it would be so big. Is there a way to keep photos down to a reasonable size? I am not very web- or computer-literate, so any advice would be welcome!)


Nice,

Chirine baKal was ever the Ladies Man...!!!

H ;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 08, 2015, 11:20:17 PM
As far as miniatures.. never underestimate the value of "Close Enough" (tm) (pat pend) (c) (reg us pat off)

Like when WOTC discontinued their Star Wars collectable figures.  The "Ordinary Stormtroopers" and "Ordinary Battle Droids" were like $0.35 each.  Need a special weapons unit or officer?  That's what a triangle of paper glued to a shoulder and a dab of 79 cent craft paint are for.

And the same leftover WOTC monster figure can be orcs, kobolds, goblins, gnolls, bandits, brigands, whatever.  Short figure is Dwarf.  Shorter figure is Hobbit.  Never mind if it doesn't have exactly what the character is supposed to have... PLAY THE DAMN GAME.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 09, 2015, 02:02:55 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;867978
Nice, Chirine baKal was ever the Ladies Man...!!!
H ;0)


Well, ya know, if one is polite and respectful, one often is very fortunate.

In this case, we set up our booth at Origins in Dallas, and two guys were set up right across from us. They were selling adventure packs and game aids, sort of like Judges Guild, and one of them had persuaded his girlfriend (the one in white) to dress up as the classic 'D&D dancing girl' to try and attract attention to their booth. She wasn't going to do it by herself, so she got her two friends to come along as well.

The three of them shimmied and undulated like the dickens all day Friday and Saturday - both to get gamers to look at the products, and to keep warm; the air conditioning was set to 'Winter Wonderland' and we all froze. I, on my side of the aisle, looked all manly and heroic in my armor and showed off our Tekumel stuff and the Temple of Vimuhla model. I had them packed three deep in front of our booth; they got no business at all. I am dead serious about this - all the gamers just walked right past them.

The problem, you see, was that there was a demo area next to their booth, where somebody was demonstrating a hunk of PVC pipe with some LEDs and buttons - you pushed the right button, and the thing blinked for a bit and then displayed a random number that the electronics had generated. Yes, that's right, these three were being ignored in favor of the "Dragon Bone Dice Simulator".

So, Saturday morning before the doors opened, they marched over to us and asked if they could work for me at my booth, as I was getting all the attention. I put the question to Dave, who went over and took a look at the guys' stuff and liked it. So, they got Dave Arneson to shill for them, and I got three very cute ladies to shill for me. Everybody was happy, and we sold out of everything after word got around that "Hey! That guy in the weird armor traded Dave Arneson for three dancing girls!!!"

Sunday, Dave wants a picture, so he tells us to bunch up nice and tight. Right before he snaps the shutter, the two ladies on either side of me each grabs one of my hands and puts them on their hips. I froze, as I was worried what Dave might think - he simply laughed, and took two photos to make sure he got the sight recorded.

(Honest to God, I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried.)

The postscript came at Gen Con, later that summer; I'm getting a hot dog (this was at MECC) while in me armor, and somebody gets my attention by rapping on my shoulder plate like it's a door knocker. It's Gary (yes, that Gary) who fixes me with a steely eye, and asks me in a severe tone "Young man, I understand that you traded Dave Arneson for three dancing girls!" I started sweating, and replied "Yes, sir." Gary guffawed, and told me that I'd gotten the better of the deal and that he should have hired me instead of Duke Siegfried.

(My life in gaming has been rather eventful, I guess.)

By the way, Hrugga me lad, you should recognize these three young ladies.

May I introduce Menwe, Sitre, and Ten'er? :) :) :)

You should be able to tell which is which, too... :) :) :)

I love surprises, I do... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 09, 2015, 02:06:46 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;868024
As far as miniatures.. never underestimate the value of "Close Enough" (tm) (pat pend) (c) (reg us pat off)

Like when WOTC discontinued their Star Wars collectable figures.  The "Ordinary Stormtroopers" and "Ordinary Battle Droids" were like $0.35 each.  Need a special weapons unit or officer?  That's what a triangle of paper glued to a shoulder and a dab of 79 cent craft paint are for.

And the same leftover WOTC monster figure can be orcs, kobolds, goblins, gnolls, bandits, brigands, whatever.  Short figure is Dwarf.  Shorter figure is Hobbit.  Never mind if it doesn't have exactly what the character is supposed to have... PLAY THE DAMN GAME.


Well, yeah! Corporate mistakes are your friend, like the 'broken figure' box at the old Little Tin Soldier Shoppe.

I've gotten most of my pet store stuff on clearance, too; patience and imagination, those are my watch words! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 09, 2015, 09:55:46 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;867896
Thank you! And thank you for looking at our photos!

That particular one is from Minicon in 1987, where we surprised Phil by most of us shpwing up as our PCs in costume. (Tony used to ruin my good towels with his skull make-up, but he was such a good Priest of Sarku) We just liked to have fun, and when we built Chirine's armor, we all thought that we were on to A Good Thing. I should note that while I made the mail, my lovely molded breastplate was done by none other then Gronan himself. We made something like twenty or so costumes, and about half of them survive in my collection - I have mannequins to display them with, as you can see on my Photobucket page.

Thank you for the compliment - Tekumel costumes are actually pretty easy to make, once you break them down into their components. My armor is kind of an exception, as it's a pretty ornate thing, but even there it's not hard to build something like that if you have the right tools and the time; my suit got started in 1982, and you can see what we got to by 1987. I still have to make the kilt of plaques to finish the armor - that's a summer project.

For most everybody else, it's T-tunics and kilts for men and skirts and choli-style tops for women. Very easy to make, and we always built 'street-legal' versions of costumes so that there would be no problems at conventions and parties. we did have one Priestess of Thumis who did a 'proper' costume; it was at this convention, and Phil made the mistake of daring her to leave the choli top off and be "a proper Tsolyani lady". She did, for the rest of the night, and Phil was speechless - he nearly swallowed his cigar. Ambereen simply snorted and told him he should have kept his mouth shut: "That'll teach you!" (By the way, that's her and Phil at my 25th birthday party. They came dressed to the nines, and we all stood there in awe. Phil's robes were the ones he'd worn on pilgrimage to Mecca.)

Tekumel costumes are all about accessories. Collars of plaques, belts, weapons, and jewelry are all easy to find, and really make the costumes. I can fill you in on all the details, and I think we still have all the patterns that The Missus did; she was our cutter.

We wore our costumes for parties and conventions - LARPs hadn't been invented yet, formally. We did have parties where we showed up as our PCs; the 'custome of the house' was that you were you while in 'regular' clothes, and as PCs when in costume.  It was all great fun - we even tried Tsolyani cooking.

We also did a lot of convention shows, as this was all great fun and good advertising. This is how I managed to trade Dave Arneson for three dancing girls at an Origins convention. (The photo was taken on the Sunday of the convention by Dave Arneson.) Viz, back when I had hair and a dumb look on my face - I was not expecting this:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BQ_6mG9m9bQ/TXpBiFk_LnI/AAAAAAAAAII/J0P9AOOOYKo/s1600/Origins82-1.jpg)

We didn't wear these costumes for regular gaming - we went for comfort, for that. My armor is 38 punds all up, and while I have worn it for 12 to 16 hours at conevntions, it's a little confining. And, as you point out, we didn't want to get our fancy duds all smelly... :)

Does this help? Am I even starting to answer your questions?

(Foot note: I am sorry about the huge size of the photo - I had no idea it would be so big. Is there a way to keep photos down to a reasonable size? I am not very web- or computer-literate, so any advice would be welcome!)


Quote from: chirine ba kal;868039
Well, ya know, if one is polite and respectful, one often is very fortunate.

In this case, we set up our booth at Origins in Dallas, and two guys were set up right across from us. They were selling adventure packs and game aids, sort of like Judges Guild, and one of them had persuaded his girlfriend (the one in white) to dress up as the classic 'D&D dancing girl' to try and attract attention to their booth. She wasn't going to do it by herself, so she got her two friends to come along as well.

The three of them shimmied and undulated like the dickens all day Friday and Saturday - both to get gamers to look at the products, and to keep warm; the air conditioning was set to 'Winter Wonderland' and we all froze. I, on my side of the aisle, looked all manly and heroic in my armor and showed off our Tekumel stuff and the Temple of Vimuhla model. I had them packed three deep in front of our booth; they got no business at all. I am dead serious about this - all the gamers just walked right past them.

The problem, you see, was that there was a demo area next to their booth, where somebody was demonstrating a hunk of PVC pipe with some LEDs and buttons - you pushed the right button, and the thing blinked for a bit and then displayed a random number that the electronics had generated. Yes, that's right, these three were being ignored in favor of the "Dragon Bone Dice Simulator".

So, Saturday morning before the doors opened, they marched over to us and asked if they could work for me at my booth, as I was getting all the attention. I put the question to Dave, who went over and took a look at the guys' stuff and liked it. So, they got Dave Arneson to shill for them, and I got three very cute ladies to shill for me. Everybody was happy, and we sold out of everything after word got around that "Hey! That guy in the weird armor traded Dave Arneson for three dancing girls!!!"

Sunday, Dave wants a picture, so he tells us to bunch up nice and tight. Right before he snaps the shutter, the two ladies on either side of me each grabs one of my hands and puts them on their hips. I froze, as I was worried what Dave might think - he simply laughed, and took two photos to make sure he got the sight recorded.

(Honest to God, I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried.)

The postscript came at Gen Con, later that summer; I'm getting a hot dog (this was at MECC) while in me armor, and somebody gets my attention by rapping on my shoulder plate like it's a door knocker. It's Gary (yes, that Gary) who fixes me with a steely eye, and asks me in a severe tone "Young man, I understand that you traded Dave Arneson for three dancing girls!" I started sweating, and replied "Yes, sir." Gary guffawed, and told me that I'd gotten the better of the deal and that he should have hired me instead of Duke Siegfried.

(My life in gaming has been rather eventful, I guess.)

By the way, Hrugga me lad, you should recognize these three young ladies.

May I introduce Menwe, Sitre, and Ten'er? :) :) :)

You should be able to tell which is which, too... :) :) :)

I love surprises, I do... :)

I believe you, but I don't get that:).
Who would ignore three dancing girls for some dice?
And who would sell you three dancing girls for Dave Arneson, and not even have him run a session?
You definitely got to meet some weird people during this time, I'm with Gary's assessment on the matter, and Dave might have thought the same...

And do you mean that they picked up playing Tekumel?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;868024
As far as miniatures.. never underestimate the value of "Close Enough" (tm) (pat pend) (c) (reg us pat off)

Like when WOTC discontinued their Star Wars collectable figures.  The "Ordinary Stormtroopers" and "Ordinary Battle Droids" were like $0.35 each.  Need a special weapons unit or officer?  That's what a triangle of paper glued to a shoulder and a dab of 79 cent craft paint are for.

And the same leftover WOTC monster figure can be orcs, kobolds, goblins, gnolls, bandits, brigands, whatever.  Short figure is Dwarf.  Shorter figure is Hobbit.  Never mind if it doesn't have exactly what the character is supposed to have... PLAY THE DAMN GAME.

I tried that path once, but it turned out my players at the time preferred using coins and counters rather than inexact figures.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on December 09, 2015, 11:57:30 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;868081
I tried that path once, but it turned out my players at the time preferred using coins and counters rather than inexact figures.
For important figures, inexact figures are a stop gap until one can find or modify to get a more exact figure. Or at least that's my view.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 09, 2015, 02:14:45 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;868081
I believe you, but I don't get that:).
Who would ignore three dancing girls for some dice?
And who would sell you three dancing girls for Dave Arneson, and not even have him run a session?
You definitely got to meet some weird people during this time, I'm with Gary's assessment on the matter, and Dave might have thought the same...

And do you mean that they picked up playing Tekumel?


I tried that path once, but it turned out my players at the time preferred using coins and counters rather than inexact figures.

 
1) About 4,000 male gamers attending the convention. They walked by these three and went to the Dragon Bone demo.
2) Two guys trying to sell their products. You could say that they were very focused.
3) Agreed. I've met something like 100,000 people over the past thirty-some years, and I would agree with you - a lot of them have been weird, even by my standards.
4) I don't know; I never saw them again. We did have a good time, though, which is why they're in my book - I like to remember people who have been in my life.
5) Understood. Different game styles for different people. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 09, 2015, 02:15:27 PM
Quote from: Bren;868093
For important figures, inexact figures are a stop gap until one can find or modify to get a more exact figure. Or at least that's my view.


Oh, sure. Understood. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 09, 2015, 04:26:10 PM
(My life in gaming has been rather eventful, I guess.)

By the way, Hrugga me lad, you should recognize these three young ladies.

May I introduce Menwe, Sitre, and Ten'er? :) :) :)

You should be able to tell which is which, too... :) :) :)

I love surprises, I do... :)[/QUOTE]

Well, I have been wracking my brain. At first I thought it was your three lovely outerplanar accountants...I checked some notes, nope. Next, I was thinking of The Salarvyani Princess...but my computer is on the fritz and I can't look into my archives. I am drawing a blank. So Uncle, if you would please enlighten me, it would be greatly appreciated...I know once I hear the answer, I will shake my head(thinking to myself, duh, oh yea, that's right). Thank you.

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 09, 2015, 09:16:47 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868039
It's Gary (yes, that Gary) who fixes me with a steely eye, and asks me in a severe tone "Young man, I understand that you traded Dave Arneson for three dancing girls!" I started sweating, and replied "Yes, sir." Gary guffawed, and told me that I'd gotten the better of the deal and that he should have hired me instead of Duke Siegfried.

(My life in gaming has been rather eventful, I guess.)


Individually and collectively we've been through some of the damnedest stuff, haven't we.

And let's not even START with "Minnesota Campaign" and "U-Con".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 10, 2015, 03:12:28 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;868130

Well, I have been wracking my brain. At first I thought it was your three lovely outerplanar accountants...I checked some notes, nope. Next, I was thinking of The Salarvyani Princess...but my computer is on the fritz and I can't look into my archives. I am drawing a blank. So Uncle, if you would please enlighten me, it would be greatly appreciated...I know once I hear the answer, I will shake my head(thinking to myself, duh, oh yea, that's right). Thank you.


No problem. "Would the three of you mind taking a moment and saying hello to that nice man I was telling you about?"

"Why, yes, Lord -"
"- we'd be happy to as you -"
"- always have the nicest guests!"
"And he's very gallant to compare us -"
"- to our friends in Accounting - "
"- or to Djel, too!"

(in chorus:) "Hello, Lord Hrugga!"

I love these moments, I do... :)

By the by, there are now four clerks in Accounting, thanks to a kind gift from Dr. Mike Burns of Dark Fable Miniatures. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 10, 2015, 03:13:21 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;868168
Individually and collectively we've been through some of the damnedest stuff, haven't we.

And let's not even START with "Minnesota Campaign" and "U-Con".


Or "Winter Campaign" or "Dragon Days", either!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 10, 2015, 10:10:18 AM
Thank you, Ladies. The pleasure is all mine. And 1000 Thank yous, Oh great Lord, Servitor of the Flame. It is now time to take my place in service of The Petal Throne...

H ;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 10, 2015, 02:28:54 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;868274
Thank you, Ladies. The pleasure is all mine. And 1000 Thank yous, Oh great Lord, Servitor of the Flame. It is now time to take my place in service of The Petal Throne...

H ;0)


Thought you might be amused! :)

Phil's NPCs (my bearers and chlen-cart driver) were telling me all along the trip from Meku to Fasiltum, when I was travelling to take up my appointment as the Military Governor of Hekellu and Chaigari, that "it was a scandal, it really was!" that such a fine and noble lady such as Si N'te was traveling with no maids or servants. I had to hear about it for months, so eventually, once we got to Fasiltum, I challenged Phil to come up with some handmaidens. The three of them were the result, as Phil thought that the story of what had happened at Origins with the gamers ignoring the girls was just too funny.

I'm still not sure where their habit of speaking in tandem came from. They always did that, and we got used to it. Eventually. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 10, 2015, 06:02:10 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868316
Thought you might be amused! :)

Phil's NPCs (my bearers and chlen-cart driver) were telling me all along the trip from Meku to Fasiltum, when I was travelling to take up my appointment as the Military Governor of Hekellu and Chaigari, that "it was a scandal, it really was!" that such a fine and noble lady such as Si N'te was traveling with no maids or servants. I had to hear about it for months, so eventually, once we got to Fasiltum, I challenged Phil to come up with some handmaidens. The three of them were the result, as Phil thought that the story of what had happened at Origins with the gamers ignoring the girls was just too funny.

I'm still not sure where their habit of speaking in tandem came from. They always did that, and we got used to it. Eventually. :)


Yes, when I realized!!! I love the fact that they can handle themselves in a tight spot. Beautiful and deadly, a real asset to your house. Also a good way for Wife number one to make sure you stay out of trouble too. Not that you can't handle yourself o'mighty sorcerer...

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 11, 2015, 12:11:19 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868221
Or "Winter Campaign" or "Dragon Days", either!


Some days I'm astonished we survived.

Fortunately, we both speak Squeak Bear.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 11, 2015, 02:24:44 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;868340
Yes, when I realized!!! I love the fact that they can handle themselves in a tight spot. Beautiful and deadly, a real asset to your house. Also a good way for Wife number one to make sure you stay out of trouble too. Not that you can't handle yourself o'mighty sorcerer...

H :0)


I thought you might be able to recognize them. :)

They actually look after Si N'te and the twins; I, in theory, have a half-dozen troopers to look after me. While, yes, I am a pretty hot-poop magic-user the big spells do take some time and effort to cast. In the early days, Vrisa used to make sure that nobody snuck up behind me and bashed me over the head with a rock; once she got called back to Saa Alliqui, because of the Tsolyani invasion, I had to be a lot more careful. Luckily for me, the party had added some more solid fighters at that point.

Which is an interesting point; we always played as if we were a 'combined arms combat team', with a healthy mix of fighters and magic-users in the party. (I am leaving out 'Priests', as they can be either.) And I was, for most of my time in Phil's campaign, not used to any great extent as a magic-user; the 'military sorcerer-priest' is just not all that useful in your usual adventuring party. I spent most of my career hitting people over the head with my mace, and providing 'lore and wisdom' to the newer players.

The 'younger generation' of NPC's, like Vrisa's brother Mridan, were mostly all rolled up in full stats, and then 'went along for the ride' most of the time. They did get played a lot; we developed a need, over the years, to have decent 'stock' characters for guests and visitors to play. Phil had had some very poor experiences with guests bringing their own PCs from their campaigns to the table; a lot of them just didn't mesh well with any of us who were there and our play style, let alone mesh in with any of Phil's current plot lines. Having these 'stock' characters gave visitors something fun and survivable to play, and which also got them included in whatever adventure we were on at that particular point in time.

One of my jobs as scribe/archivist/recorder was to keep accurate records of these people, and have a sheet - basically a 'stat sheet' with the character's back story - handy for the guest to pick and choose from our selection.

So, that's where a lot of these folks come from. They adventured with us, and we appreciated the help.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 11, 2015, 02:29:47 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;868392
Some days I'm astonished we survived.

Fortunately, we both speak Squeak Bear.


Agreed; this may be from what you call 'thinking tactically'. Looking back on it, I think we managed to dodge a lot of bullets that caught other people, and often caught them pretty badly. We tended to cut our losses and get clear, over the years, where other folks would ride the thing down in flames...

Will anyone out there in Internet-land catch that latest obscure reference? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 11, 2015, 07:42:47 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868396
Agreed; this may be from what you call 'thinking tactically'. Looking back on it, I think we managed to dodge a lot of bullets that caught other people, and often caught them pretty badly. We tended to cut our losses and get clear, over the years, where other folks would ride the thing down in flames...

Will anyone out there in Internet-land catch that latest obscure reference? :)


Well, I'm sure it may involve wargaming(safe bet) and pink trees of death. Maybe even morse code, tanks, and Russians. I've led a secluded life in Do Chaka.I'm here for the education...

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 11, 2015, 01:27:24 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;868419
Well, I'm sure it may involve wargaming(safe bet) and pink trees of death. Maybe even morse code, tanks, and Russians. I've led a secluded life in Do Chaka.I'm here for the education...


Then you're in for a good time. The reference is to none of the above, actually. Think Gronan's name, squeak bears, and the 1976 World Con in Kansas City. That's the convention where a film student / fan who got a job directing movies was talking about his new film - which he hoped might be popular...

I'll have to check the archives; I may still have my copy of the then-brand new 3/4" U-matic tapes we made of the performance. We laughed so hard we had to get off the camera riser.

Fasten your safety belts. We're in for a wild ride. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 11, 2015, 03:23:01 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868452
Then you're in for a good time. The reference is to none of the above, actually. Think Gronan's name, squeak bears, and the 1976 World Con in Kansas City. That's the convention where a film student / fan who got a job directing movies was talking about his new film - which he hoped might be popular...

I'll have to check the archives; I may still have my copy of the then-brand new 3/4" U-matic tapes we made of the performance. We laughed so hard we had to get off the camera riser.

Fasten your safety belts. We're in for a wild ride. :)


Thank goodness I'm not really a betting man. I owe you...the only thing that I can come up with is George Lucas...maybe John Milius talking about Star Wars...Squeaky bears...??? In 1976, I was but four years old...!!!
I'll try to hang on!!!

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 11, 2015, 05:07:01 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868115
1) About 4,000 male gamers attending the convention. They walked by these three and went to the Dragon Bone demo.
2) Two guys trying to sell their products. You could say that they were very focused.
3) Agreed. I've met something like 100,000 people over the past thirty-some years, and I would agree with you - a lot of them have been weird, even by my standards.
4) I don't know; I never saw them again. We did have a good time, though, which is why they're in my book - I like to remember people who have been in my life.
5) Understood. Different game styles for different people. :)

1) I'm even more amazed now:).
2) I'd say, forgive me for my frankness,  that they were focused on the wrong thing.
3) About 3800 of those visitors included...
4) They seem fun, I'll grant that;).
5) I guess so. Thinking of it, the group has changed completely. Maybe I should give some suggestions to the current roaster of players.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;868220
No problem. "Would the three of you mind taking a moment and saying hello to that nice man I was telling you about?"

"Why, yes, Lord -"
"- we'd be happy to as you -"
"- always have the nicest guests!"
"And he's very gallant to compare us -"
"- to our friends in Accounting - "
"- or to Djel, too!"

(in chorus:) "Hello, Lord Hrugga!"

I love these moments, I do... :)

By the by, there are now four clerks in Accounting, thanks to a kind gift from Dr. Mike Burns of Dark Fable Miniatures. :)


:D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 12, 2015, 02:00:22 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868452
1976 World Con in Kansas City. That's the convention where a film student / fan who got a job directing movies was talking about his new film - which he hoped might be popular...


And I met this young guy named Mark who had some really funny stories.

.... you know, you and I may be the only ones left who remember
"The Journal of the Whills"...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 12, 2015, 02:12:00 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;868461
Thank goodness I'm not really a betting man. I owe you...the only thing that I can come up with is George Lucas...maybe John Milius talking about Star Wars...Squeaky bears...??? In 1976, I was but four years old...!!!
I'll try to hang on!!!

H :0)


No problem - not all of us are as old as the hills. :)

It was the incredible performance by Firesign Theater of "The Adventures Of Gronan The Barbarian', a totally wonderful and wacky send up of the entire Sword and Sorcery genre. With just four guys, they did all of the characters from all of the Conan series, with a healthy dose of everything else under the sun thrown in. There were maybe a couple of hundred people in the room, and we all lost it in the first sixty seconds.

Fanfare (on kazoos):
"The Mighty-sinewed Gronan, wandering the land in a time when men were men and sheep were careful!"

And so on, for the next forty-five minutes. Gronan wore a colander on his head - yes, in the very best radio theater tradition, they acted out all of the parts and actions. Gronan had, sadly, been orphaned as a wee child, but had been raised in the forest by - you guessed it! - squeak bears. The toy bear had a lot of dialog, too. (I own both a squeak octopus and a squeak squid, obtained from what might just be the world's finest toy store, in Winnepeg, which make regular appearances in games.) Firesign Theater was almost the flagship of F/SF fandom back in those days, and Dave Arneson was one of their fans. You can see their influence in Blackmoor. Quite a lot of influence, actually.

I think you can find them on the web; you might want to have a listen... :)

I did get to talk to George Lucas, by the way; he had a little room off one of the stairwells, where there was all the Ralph McQuarrie art (that was later stolen) and some of the costumes - I got to wear both the Stormtrooper and Darth Vader costumes. Lots of the prop weapons, and I seemed to impress the nice man when I could rattle off all the weapons and weapon parts used to make them. It was a wonderful three hours! And I got to read all nine scripts, too... :cool:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 12, 2015, 02:22:06 AM
And I had been adventuring with Gronan for almost five years by that time.  Great minds think alike.

"Squeak Bear says he doesn't know where the Kitchen Magician is."
* WHAP! *
"Squeak Bear says he just remembered."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 12, 2015, 02:31:01 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;868468
1) I'm even more amazed now:).
2) I'd say, forgive me for my frankness,  that they were focused on the wrong thing.
3) About 3800 of those visitors included...
4) They seem fun, I'll grant that;).
5) I guess so. Thinking of it, the group has changed completely. Maybe I should give some suggestions to the current roaster of players.

:D/QUOTE]

a. Yes, and so was I. All day Friday, and we all watched in stricken awe as the three of them did everything but bash the passing gamers over the hard to get their attention. It was one of the most surreal moments in my oft-times surreal life. I simply couldn't get my head around the situation. Three pretty young ladies in wisps of lame, vs. a dice simulator? Really?

b. I think you're right, but these two guys were gamers, and had a gamer's focus. Air Force people call it things like 'target fixation' and 'going head down in the cockpit', and these guys - as well as the passing gamers - had it in bucket loads. Arneson thought that it was hilarious that once he was standing at their booth, they got all sorts of traffic - Dave kept chortling about him being 'prettier' and 'more attractive' for two days, and kept on laughing about the situation for months.

c. :) Agreed!

d. Oh, they were; we had a lot of laughs all the rest of the weekend, we had a lot of fun doing some 'role-playing' at the booth. It was a very good time, and the icing on the cake was the Adventure Games guys being totally unable to figure out why my Tekumel merchandise was screaming off the table at supersonic speeds.

e. Well, play what you want to, and how you want to - it's all about you and your friends having fun! :)

"Lord Chirine, you -"
"- really should introduce us -"
"- to your friend, because -"
"- you're telling him -"
"- our story!"

Ah. They're right, as usual. "Lord Asen, may I introduce Menwe, Sitre, and Ten'er? Ladies, Lord Asen, of whom I have spoken..."

(in chorus) "Hello, Lord Asen!" :) :) :)  [Well, there are three of them...]

And yes, I have loved the figures from Dark Fable - after some three decades, I finally have all of the 'palace people' that we met in our adventure, and I can put faces (albeit 28mm ones) to all of these people. One of the real joys of gaming with Phil was watching him playing the NPCs; he could, and did, have conversations amongst them, doing all the parts by himself, and it left you sitting there in astonishment. He really was good - and it was very obvious that quite a few of the people that we'd meet were real people he'd met on his travels. It was part of the wonder... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on December 12, 2015, 10:27:49 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;868533
.... you know, you and I may be the only ones left who remember
"The Journal of the Whills"...
Nah. But this is the wrong forum for that sort of Star Wars trivia.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 12, 2015, 10:35:49 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;868533
And I met this young guy named Mark who had some really funny stories.

.... you know, you and I may be the only ones left who remember
"The Journal of the Whills"...


Yep. A long time ago, at a convention far, far away... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 12, 2015, 10:40:58 PM
Quote from: Bren;868594
Nah. But this is the wrong forum for that sort of Star Wars trivia.


Gotcha.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 12, 2015, 11:01:15 PM
Uncle,

Just wondering how your player's fared underneath The Pyramid of Doom? What kind of nasties did the encounter? Hlutrgu...? Did they find any treasure? Or did they just find their demise...Any particular way you determine who or what's in the cards(besides random tables, or whim)?

H :0)

PS Questions to follow...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 12, 2015, 11:43:08 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;868675
Uncle,

Just wondering how your player's fared underneath The Pyramid of Doom? What kind of nasties did the encounter? Hlutrgu...? Did they find any treasure? Or did they just find their demise...Any particular way you determine who or what's in the cards(besides random tables, or whim)?

PS Questions to follow...

Right. First, there will be a short rant that you should feel free to ignore, and then I'll talk about how I set up a game like this.

[Rant follows.]
Well, yes, it is the second Saturday of the month, and normally we'd have played out this second half of the adventure. However, the players were all busy, and I doubt we'll be back to this game until January. It's been very difficult, over the past couple of years, to be able to get people together for gaming any any sort of regular basis; people have lives, and things like school do get in the way. It has not helped the group that we took a lot of hassle from various organizations, legal and otherwise, trying to get control of what's in my head. My memories (and my collections) are regarded by some people as 'collectable' and 'valuable as investments', and my book also seems to be seen as 'the pot of gold at the end of the Tekumel rainbow' for anyone who can get control of the property. All of this has had a very negative effect on my younger players, who all have better (and more fun!) things to do with their time then be served legal papers when gaming here at the house by the very people - the 'senior gamers, also called "Barker's Own", by some Tekumel fans - that they looked up to and respected. It's the same sort of mindless and ultimately pointless 'politics around the Petal Throne' that has dogged Tekumel for years.

To summarize thirty-some years in a nutshell, there are people out there who firmly believe that it's better to have no Tekumel then a Tekumel that's outside their control. I'm sick and tired of the feuding factions all kicking me, just 'cause "Chirine has all the good stuff, and we want it for ourselves." It's gotten old.
[Rant ends. Thank you for your patience. :) ]

Okay; back to the game. In this case, I made sure to have two possible entrances to the presumed Underworld on the table. This will be a true three-dimensional game, as you can go up inside the pyramid - it has four levels and does come apart for access - as well as the below-ground level. In past games, the creatures of the Underworld have managed to come up one of the unguarded shafts and surprise the players. It's much more entertaining, they way.

I like to make some quick sketches of the levels, and then I'll lay them out on the table with my set of modular Underworld tiles; I use wooden blocks (from IKEA, actually) to do walls, as these allow for better access and visibility for the players. I like to steal my floor plans from historical sources, either something that Phil did or something that he liked - I use Ancient Egyptian tomb plans a lot, as this was something that Phil did. Generally, I design 'one-off' complexes like this so that the closer and closer one gets to the center, the richer the rewards - and the more dangerous and risky the adventure. The 'gaming well' of my table is 48" x 48", and this allows for some pretty extensive Underworlds; you might want to have a look at the videos I have on You Tube of a similar game.

Generally, I don't use random tables to stock the Underworld. I think about what the rooms would be used for, in their historical contexts both in the real world and in Phil's; his Jakalla Underworld is full of closets and storeroom for the use of the people who live and work down there. I do the same thing; I then stock the rooms with all sorts of goodies, using my collection of 'detail' stuff. Barrels, weapons racks, thrones, statues, you name it - I got it. I also always make sure to make notes and take photos of whatever I've built, so that if we ever need to go back there, I can recreate the entire underworld as need be.

Next, I work up who's already there; no Hlutrgu, as you would really not be finding them in much of any situation other then along their nasty swamplands. However, this is not an issue, as Tekumel is very well-stocked with Dire Perils, and I have a lot of them on the shelves. Since this is a tomb complex, I would expect to find a lot of Undead, so out come the boxes of Undead and I play the role of the Ancient High Priest who originally stocked the place up with hordes of Tomb guardians. Each group is given a specific set of instructions, unless there will be a 'live' player to run them - this is a great job to give guests and visitors! - and they will act as per those instructions. This is as per Phil's practice; he used to note that the Undead are not the smartest beings around, and usually have to be directed by a live intelligence for maximum havoc. Luckily for me, I have some of those, too.

I can't say that I work all this out by whim; I go from what I saw and encountered in Phil's campaign, and his usual practices when he did stuff like this. I do keep careful notes, though, and I refer to these when the players find something. I should also note that the players can't see into anything unless they actually look through the doorway or go into a room; I use black paper to cover the rooms until they do this.

And I should also say that one does not need miniatures for all this; big sheets of paper, or the modern battle mats, will work just as well. Once the play starts, it pretty much runs itself, and all I do is facilitate what the players are doing.

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 13, 2015, 12:04:29 AM
This is a continuation of the previous post, but I'd like to step back for a moment and talk gaming philosophy, as it was practiced back in the 'pre-school' days. (I like to think of myself as a 'pre-school gamer'.)

It was the custom, back then, for the GM/referee to be the one to design and stock the particular scenario; a lot of this may have been because it was also usually the person running the game was also the one hosting it at their house or at the shop/club. The GM would draw up all the rooms or buildings, then devise what was in them. The players, in their exploration of the venue, would then find or not find things, and run into whatever Dire Perils had been set in place for them to find.

We played - and we're talking in my games and in Phil's - what would be called 'sandbox play' these days; the players made their own adventures, and it was up to the GM to stay ahead of them. It was more or less what Gronan's described as 'Free Kriegspiel', where the GM/referee ran things and was a very neutral party - my job is as a GM is to facilitate the players' adventure, and to let them do their thing. This does have some perils for the GM; a very active group can get way ahead of you, and a very passive group can bore you to tears. I've had both, over the years, and I tend to select my home gamers for the former; staying ahead of them is just as much for for me, really!

I, as GM, always knew what was in the chest in the room. It was up to the players to look in it or not, as they chose; it wasn't my issue. It was also my job to maintain the 'meta-campaign', the larger world-setting that the players moved about in and lived in as members of their society; I did all the backstage stuff, as we've mentioned in this thread, based on all the parameters that Phil had set out in his works. The players did what they wanted to, and had to deal with the consequences.

I've been told that this is not what's been described to me as "true player character agency", and that I'm "too railroady"; I've even been accused of being a "story gamer" because of the meta game running in the background. I'm both baffled an confused by all this, especially when people tell me that my gaming is not 'proper RPG play'. Well, okay, but this is what we did, back in the day.

It kind of makes me want to post a warning sign on the door, or something.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 13, 2015, 12:09:19 AM
That's a great post, and "Real Soon Now" I want to expand on something Chirine said.

One major difference between Tekumel and what came earlier is that Phil built Tekumel FIRST, and then the idea of the game came along.  However, Blackmoor and Greyhawk both came out of games first; there was CHAINMAIL, and the Castle and Crusade Society, and Dave started Blackmoor RPG type adventuring in the "Great Kingdom" of the Castle and Crusade Society, and still had wargame elements in it.  And Gary played, and fell in love with the "Fun House from Hell" aspect and turned the game into something more centered on that.

But still first and foremost a game, and the world came later to support the game.  That's why in the OD&D rules monsters can see in the dark, and if hired by players they lose that ability (yes, the rules do say that.)  It makes no FUCKING sense at all in a "world building" sense, but perfect sense in "This is a game in a pseudomedieval fantasy world about exploring THE FUN HOUSE FROM HELL".  It's why, when Phil gave me guff about "what do these monsters eat" I put a McDonald's on the 6th level.  In "THE FUN HOUSE FROM HELL" nobody cares about stuff like ecology.

Both approaches, I feel, are valid, but they can give you very different outcomes.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 13, 2015, 12:11:04 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868676
Right. First, there will be a short rant that you should feel free to ignore, and then I'll talk about how I set up a game like this.

[Rant follows.]
Well, yes, it is the second Saturday of the month, and normally we'd have played out this second half of the adventure. However, the players were all busy, and I doubt we'll be back to this game until January. It's been very difficult, over the past couple of years, to be able to get people together for gaming any any sort of regular basis; people have lives, and things like school do get in the way. It has not helped the group that we took a lot of hassle from various organizations, legal and otherwise, trying to get control of what's in my head. My memories (and my collections) are regarded by some people as 'collectable' and 'valuable as investments', and my book also seems to be seen as 'the pot of gold at the end of the Tekumel rainbow' for anyone who can get control of the property. All of this has had a very negative effect on my younger players, who all have better (and more fun!) things to do with their time then be served legal papers when gaming here at the house by the very people - the 'senior gamers, also called "Barker's Own", by some Tekumel fans - that they looked up to and respected. It's the same sort of mindless and ultimately pointless 'politics around the Petal Throne' that has dogged Tekumel for years.

To summarize thirty-some years in a nutshell, there are people out there who firmly believe that it's better to have no Tekumel then a Tekumel that's outside their control. I'm sick and tired of the feuding factions all kicking me, just 'cause "Chirine has all the good stuff, and we want it for ourselves." It's gotten old.
[Rant ends. Thank you for your patience. :) ]


Jesus H. Christ.

I know it's wrong to blaspheme, but honestly, I don't know what else to say.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 13, 2015, 12:12:18 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868678


I've been told that this is not what's been described to me as "true player character agency", and that I'm "too railroady"; I've even been accused of being a "story gamer" because of the meta game running in the background. I'm both baffled an confused by all this, especially when people tell me that my gaming is not 'proper RPG play'. Well, okay, but this is what we did, back in the day.

It kind of makes me want to post a warning sign on the door, or something.


To suggest in the spirit of eternal chumship that you ignore the banal screelings of the littermates of drones.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on December 13, 2015, 12:22:06 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;868679
It's why, when Phil gave me guff about "what do these monsters eat" I put a McDonald's on the 6th level.  In "THE FUN HOUSE FROM HELL" nobody cares about stuff like ecology.


Whereas I introduced "breadrock" in my current D&D 5e campaign.  It's edible rock if you didn't guess.  It's tough and dry if spongy if less so than iron rations and more nutritious than a big mac.  Rolemaster had Gabbits that bred insanely fast, were about the size of a schnauzer, slow moving, and mostly meat.

As to the legal stuff, I hope there's a special place in hell for people who having no capacity to create anything of worth themselves grasp hold of someone else's intellectual property and claim it for their own.  I'm not talking about work for hire in particular.  But as David Sims said of doing work for hire "They will never pay you more than the lawyers will cost them."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on December 13, 2015, 01:08:37 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868676
To summarize thirty-some years in a nutshell, there are people out there who firmly believe that it's better to have no Tekumel then a Tekumel that's outside their control.
That's a battle they've already lost. People can run Tekumel based on what is already out there in the wild.

What the pin-headed, controlling, nit wits can do is limit what resources are easily made available and limit the number of people who are exposed to the cool things its creator invented. It's tragic that they won't let the information out there so that Phil's legacy can get the widest possible exposure.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 13, 2015, 01:23:55 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868676
Right. First, there will be a short rant that you should feel free to ignore, and then I'll talk about how I set up a game like this.

[Rant follows.]
Well, yes, it is the second Saturday of the month, and normally we'd have played out this second half of the adventure. However, the players were all busy, and I doubt we'll be back to this game until January. It's been very difficult, over the past couple of years, to be able to get people together for gaming any any sort of regular basis; people have lives, and things like school do get in the way. It has not helped the group that we took a lot of hassle from various organizations, legal and otherwise, trying to get control of what's in my head. My memories (and my collections) are regarded by some people as 'collectable' and 'valuable as investments', and my book also seems to be seen as 'the pot of gold at the end of the Tekumel rainbow' for anyone who can get control of the property. All of this has had a very negative effect on my younger players, who all have better (and more fun!) things to do with their time then be served legal papers when gaming here at the house by the very people - the 'senior gamers, also called "Barker's Own", by some Tekumel fans - that they looked up to and respected. It's the same sort of mindless and ultimately pointless 'politics around the Petal Throne' that has dogged Tekumel for years.

To summarize thirty-some years in a nutshell, there are people out there who firmly believe that it's better to have no Tekumel then a Tekumel that's outside their control. I'm sick and tired of the feuding factions all kicking me, just 'cause "Chirine has all the good stuff, and we want it for ourselves." It's gotten old.
[Rant ends. Thank you for your patience. :) ]

Okay; back to the game. In this case, I made sure to have two possible entrances to the presumed Underworld on the table. This will be a true three-dimensional game, as you can go up inside the pyramid - it has four levels and does come apart for access - as well as the below-ground level. In past games, the creatures of the Underworld have managed to come up one of the unguarded shafts and surprise the players. It's much more entertaining, they way.

I like to make some quick sketches of the levels, and then I'll lay them out on the table with my set of modular Underworld tiles; I use wooden blocks (from IKEA, actually) to do walls, as these allow for better access and visibility for the players. I like to steal my floor plans from historical sources, either something that Phil did or something that he liked - I use Ancient Egyptian tomb plans a lot, as this was something that Phil did. Generally, I design 'one-off' complexes like this so that the closer and closer one gets to the center, the richer the rewards - and the more dangerous and risky the adventure. The 'gaming well' of my table is 48" x 48", and this allows for some pretty extensive Underworlds; you might want to have a look at the videos I have on You Tube of a similar game.

Generally, I don't use random tables to stock the Underworld. I think about what the rooms would be used for, in their historical contexts both in the real world and in Phil's; his Jakalla Underworld is full of closets and storeroom for the use of the people who live and work down there. I do the same thing; I then stock the rooms with all sorts of goodies, using my collection of 'detail' stuff. Barrels, weapons racks, thrones, statues, you name it - I got it. I also always make sure to make notes and take photos of whatever I've built, so that if we ever need to go back there, I can recreate the entire underworld as need be.

Next, I work up who's already there; no Hlutrgu, as you would really not be finding them in much of any situation other then along their nasty swamplands. However, this is not an issue, as Tekumel is very well-stocked with Dire Perils, and I have a lot of them on the shelves. Since this is a tomb complex, I would expect to find a lot of Undead, so out come the boxes of Undead and I play the role of the Ancient High Priest who originally stocked the place up with hordes of Tomb guardians. Each group is given a specific set of instructions, unless there will be a 'live' player to run them - this is a great job to give guests and visitors! - and they will act as per those instructions. This is as per Phil's practice; he used to note that the Undead are not the smartest beings around, and usually have to be directed by a live intelligence for maximum havoc. Luckily for me, I have some of those, too.

I can't say that I work all this out by whim; I go from what I saw and encountered in Phil's campaign, and his usual practices when he did stuff like this. I do keep careful notes, though, and I refer to these when the players find something. I should also note that the players can't see into anything unless they actually look through the doorway or go into a room; I use black paper to cover the rooms until they do this.

And I should also say that one does not need miniatures for all this; big sheets of paper, or the modern battle mats, will work just as well. Once the play starts, it pretty much runs itself, and all I do is facilitate what the players are doing.

Does this help?


Thank you. It always helps!!! Sorry to hear that you and yours are being pestered. We all know how you feel about The Professor and his creation. I know what you do is in good faith. Keep up the good work. The Emperor may change, but the story must be told. Keep writing... ;0)

I know that you were named after a great hero in Tekumel's past. Any family history that we don't know about? I keep thinking to myself, baKal is quite similar to Pakal...Talk to you soon.

H :0)

PS Rant and rave all you want. I'm strapped in...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 13, 2015, 02:53:49 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;868680
Jesus H. Christ.

I know it's wrong to blaspheme, but honestly, I don't know what else to say.


Understood. look at it from the point of the dozen twenty-something college students and high-school students I had in my game group. One would think that one would like to encourage young people to get into the hobby in general, and to learn about and enjoy Tekumel in particular. They had a lot of fun in Phil's world, and picked up on how it worked a while lot faster then you and I did - they have a lot more cross cultural knowledge then we did at their age, and were able to 'get' Tekumel very quickly and easily.

Sadly, the 'older and more experienced' people saw them as both a resource to be shamelessly exploited, and as a threat to their own position and prestige. These kids busted their butts to make Phil's memorial event happen, to cite just one example, and got tromped on as a result. What makes it even sadder were the contributions they were making to Tekumel as a whole - several of the new miniatures were their creations, after running into the creatures in our games.

And the various factions are still at it; too. I was taken out for breakfast last Sunday, my 59th birthday, by one of them as they wanted to 'kiss and make up' with me for all their legal threats - yes these are the same folks who cost me $800 in legal fees to get rid of them. I went, mostly because several of them had been friends for some thirty years.

Five hours later - but really good steak and eggs - I had gotten nothing from them besides all sorts of pressure to let them have my work and my book. No apologies, no excuses, no nothing; not even any remorse for the RICO conviction one of them had managed to rack up. (They have a fascinating legal history; the Internet is your friend. And my Missus is the Queen of the Internet.) They gave me the same old same old that they had given me the last time around, and I simply smiled sweetly and ate my breakfast. (Eggs over hard, please.) And with that, I got up, and several thirty-plus year friendships ended in a wet, rainy parking lot in South Minneapolis.

So it goes.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 13, 2015, 02:58:39 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;868681
To suggest in the spirit of eternal chumship that you ignore the banal screelings of the littermates of drones.


Agreed. This thread, on this forum, is the only place where I'm active these days. I'll probably get my blog going again, now that I have a more regular work schedule, but I don't know how often I'll be posting or what about.

I've given up on 'outreach' to local gamers; I've been trying for several years to let people know about what I do, like the Braunsteins I run, and I have gotten no effective responses. I've been told that I need to be using a popular set of rules, that I need to run my games at specific times at specific locations, and that I need to change what I do so as to be more in step with modern gaming.

Well, all right, I can understand all that, but that's not something I can do and still be the gamer that I am, and have been since those hot summer nights in Coffmann Union.

So, once again, it goes.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 13, 2015, 03:02:14 AM
Quote
As to the legal stuff, I hope there's a special place in hell for people who having no capacity to create anything of worth themselves grasp hold of someone else's intellectual property and claim it for their own. I'm not talking about work for hire in particular. But as David Sims said of doing work for hire "They will never pay you more than the lawyers will cost them."

David, I'm sorry; I did the 'quote thing' wrong. here's my response to you:

Agreed. My problem has always been that I'm a 'populist', with the exact same attitude that you have. And, as I demonstrated, it does sell the merchandise; I seem to be the only person who ever made decent sales with Tekumel stuff.

Everybody in these factions seems to think that there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and a ton of money for the one who can get the IP under lock and key. Getting my brain under their control is seen as a vital part of this; I seem to simply know too much for my own good.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 13, 2015, 03:03:12 AM
Quote from: Bren;868687
That's a battle they've already lost. People can run Tekumel based on what is already out there in the wild.

What the pin-headed, controlling, nit wits can do is limit what resources are easily made available and limit the number of people who are exposed to the cool things its creator invented. It's tragic that they won't let the information out there so that Phil's legacy can get the widest possible exposure.


Agreed. The truth is out there, and people like you are Tekumel's future.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 13, 2015, 03:21:59 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;868690
Thank you. It always helps!!! Sorry to hear that you and yours are being pestered. We all know how you feel about The Professor and his creation. I know what you do is in good faith. Keep up the good work. The Emperor may change, but the story must be told. Keep writing... ;0)

I know that you were named after a great hero in Tekumel's past. Any family history that we don't know about? I keep thinking to myself, baKal is quite similar to Pakal...Talk to you soon.

PS Rant and rave all you want. I'm strapped in...



Always happy to help! Ask away - I really enjoy it! :)

First off, I'm sorry about the griping; all I'm trying to do is tell people about Phil and our games with him. That's it; no 'Secret Plan', no nothing.

Sigh. Anyway:

Yes, there is. You'll get more in the book, but Chirine is indeed named after the legend of the Dark Times, Chirene the Dragon-Headed Warrior of Nlyss. Chirine himself is not a Nylss; he is, however, descended from a long line of sorcerer-priest-soldiers of the Temple of Vimhula. The Clan of the Eye of the Flame has certainly fallen on hard times, but they are very, very old and very, very 'connected'. I'll be talking a lot about this in Book Four, where Our Heroes travel to Malchairan and deal with the Affair of the Malchairan Emerald. This was maybe the most 'D&D'-like adventure Phil ever did for us, and was the only really classic 'quest' / 'mission' adventure we ever went on. You'll learn about why Chirine knows as much as he does, and why the Vriddi / Ebbridda are his allies a lot of the time.

 Chirene himself also puts in a 'guest star' appearance, in Book Five. Gertie the Great Golden Dragon herself also appears in Four, as well as in Six. Hmm. Dragon-headed warriors? Dragons? The Dragon Lords of old? Chirine's standard, with the device of The Dragon and The Flame, drawn by some guy named Phil? Could there be a connection? That's for me to know, and for you to find out...)

So, yes, there's a lot of family history, but we're now getting into 'spoiler' territory, and I don't want to wreck any of the fun for you. I am now at 115,325 words, and starting to really pick up the pace. The stories are flowing faster then my dyslexic fingers can type them... :)

Much more to come; keep asking those questions!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: yosemitemike on December 13, 2015, 03:58:45 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868678

I've been told that this is not what's been described to me as "true player character agency", and that I'm "too railroady"; I've even been accused of being a "story gamer" because of the meta game running in the background. I'm both baffled an confused by all this, especially when people tell me that my gaming is not 'proper RPG play'. Well, okay, but this is what we did, back in the day.


What the hell does any of that even mean?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 13, 2015, 02:45:36 PM
Quote from: yosemitemike;868705
What the hell does any of that even mean?


Hell if I know; this is coming from gamers I've spoken with over the past eight years, and these seem to be popular buzz words and phrases - just like "maintaining the brand identity" in regards to Tekumel publishing gets bandied about. Or like "Gamist"? "Narrativist"? "Simulationist"? for that matter. (Phil was all three, often in the same game session. Just saying.)

I get this kind of thing from self-identified 'OSR' people, and from equally self-identified 'indie' people. Both ends of the gaming spectrum have also told me that we were also "too loosey-goosey" and "too handwavy" as well, when I describe the way Gary, Dave, and Phil played - heck, for that matter, I've been told that Dave Wesely ran the Braunsteins 'the wrong way'. From what I understand, those old guys didn't 'get' the right way to play, back in the day, and have had to be 'corrected' on their errant ways through the use of "proper interpretation" and "enhanced game mechanics".

Well, all right, I'm cool with whatever one wants to play in one's own campaign. I play the way I've always played, and I'm not likely to change that anytime soon. There seem to be some people who have an issue with that; sorry, but I am what I am; they can play their games, and I will play mine.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on December 13, 2015, 03:10:00 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868697
David, I'm sorry; I did the 'quote thing' wrong. here's my response to you:

Agreed. My problem has always been that I'm a 'populist', with the exact same attitude that you have. And, as I demonstrated, it does sell the merchandise; I seem to be the only person who ever made decent sales with Tekumel stuff.

Everybody in these factions seems to think that there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and a ton of money for the one who can get the IP under lock and key. Getting my brain under their control is seen as a vital part of this; I seem to simply know too much for my own good.


Money changes everything.  Sadly properties like Tekumel and Traveller will never achieve that status.  They have obsessive fan bases but they don't have the ability to move beyond their niche and there just isn't that much money in that niche.  I've always wished Traveller could have reached the heights Warhammer 40000 did.  It's much more to my tastes and I believe a more grounded Star Wars with a grittier edge (don't get me started on T5 making psionics into the force) would do well in other media like comics and movies.  But even at its peak the roleplaying industry isn't making people rich.  I think it's because people don't have the frame of reference to understand how little money a million dollars really is.  They don't see the costs when they think of the sales figures.  And if the people in control won't let anyone else can make a buck on the property creative people are more likely to follow their own vision than have their work owned and controlled by people who don't have their best interests at heart.

It's the sad lesson of Jack Kirby's legacy.  You can almost single handedly create multimillion dollar properties for people and they'll never love you enough to give you a fair cut.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 13, 2015, 03:43:19 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;868766
Money changes everything.  Sadly properties like Tekumel and Traveller will never achieve that status.  They have obsessive fan bases but they don't have the ability to move beyond their niche and there just isn't that much money in that niche.  I've always wished Traveller could have reached the heights Warhammer 40000 did.  It's much more to my tastes and I believe a more grounded Star Wars with a grittier edge (don't get me started on T5 making psionics into the force) would do well in other media like comics and movies.  But even at its peak the roleplaying industry isn't making people rich.  I think it's because people don't have the frame of reference to understand how little money a million dollars really is.  They don't see the costs when they think of the sales figures.  And if the people in control won't let anyone else can make a buck on the property creative people are more likely to follow their own vision than have their work owned and controlled by people who don't have their best interests at heart.

It's the sad lesson of Jack Kirby's legacy.  You can almost single handedly create multimillion dollar properties for people and they'll never love you enough to give you a fair cut.


I'd say that this is a fair summary of the situation. The game industry is tiny - even back when we were stumping the hustings, we kept our 'day jobs' to pay the bills. Even GW, the titan of the game hobby, is a very small player in the toy industry Their entire sales volume for a year is about what a company like Hasbro would take in for one single product. It's an entirely different economy. Look at the number of miniatures Kickstarters that have failed, as well-intentioned people drastically underestimate the costs of production and distribution of their products.

The idea that a particular IP is worth tons and tons of money in today's game industry is - at best - wishful thinking. The money just isn't there, from what I've seen over the years. Wanting it to be so isn't going to cut the mustard.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on December 13, 2015, 06:06:25 PM
I really think there's room for the industry to grow these days.  I've gotten at least a dozen kids into roleplaying and wargaming in my store, but what it's taken has been a lot of patience and hard work and patience.  Mmporgs are a terrible training ground for even D&D.  Right now one of those kids is DMing and I'm playing, I always feel that good players are the greater need these days.  Everyone has a story to tell and everyone wants to be the star, but what's needed is a passing of the techniques required to survive outside a padded cell, and not just in games but in life.

Planning, caution, resource management, and problem solving skills are hardly in evidence among these refuges from the land of easy solutions spooned out like pabulum from flickering screens.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 13, 2015, 09:28:59 PM
And don't forget, in a game like WoW when a new dungeon or raid comes out, the solution is posted online within a few days.  They do not even pretend to teach figuring out what to do, they are all about following directions.

I know I've told the story of Gary in his last years commenting about how young players at conventions would roll characters, charge headfirst into Greyhawk castle, get wiped out by the kobolds because they knew nothing about positioning or flanks or even looking behind you, and then roll up new characters and to it all over again.

He never could figure out what was going on, but to anybody who's heard the "Tonight our guild made its fifth attempt to blah blah blah," it makes perfect sense.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: yosemitemike on December 13, 2015, 09:33:00 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868772

The idea that a particular IP is worth tons and tons of money in today's game industry is - at best - wishful thinking. The money just isn't there, from what I've seen over the years. Wanting it to be so isn't going to cut the mustard.


People who think that they are going to get piles of money out of an RPG IP in 2015 are just plain delusional.  Companies are cagey about sales numbers but people who are in a position to know are talking about print copy sales in the hundreds and pdf sales in the tens with a book that sells in the thousands of copies being considered quite successful.  WotC has drastically reduced the resources going into to D&D because even though it's one of the top two best selling RPGs it makes a pittance compared to what they make on Magic.

If they think they will make tons and tons of money if they can just get control of that IP, they are kidding themselves.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 13, 2015, 09:38:16 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868695

And the various factions are still at it; too. I was taken out for breakfast last Sunday, my 59th birthday, by one of them as they wanted to 'kiss and make up' with me for all their legal threats - yes these are the same folks who cost me $800 in legal fees to get rid of them. I went, mostly because several of them had been friends for some thirty years.

Five hours later - but really good steak and eggs - I had gotten nothing from them besides all sorts of pressure to let them have my work and my book. No apologies, no excuses, no nothing; not even any remorse for the RICO conviction one of them had managed to rack up. (They have a fascinating legal history; the Internet is your friend. And my Missus is the Queen of the Internet.) They gave me the same old same old that they had given me the last time around, and I simply smiled sweetly and ate my breakfast. (Eggs over hard, please.) And with that, I got up, and several thirty-plus year friendships ended in a wet, rainy parking lot in South Minneapolis.

So it goes.


Oh, my, they HAVE been busy!

You know, besides the sheer shitheadedness of this all, the other thing that amazes me is that the myth of "big money in the RPG world" still persists.  D&D hit its zenith in 1982 when it was featured in "E.T. the Extraterrestrial."  It's been downhill ever since.  Even though it's a good size niche hobby it's nowhere near what it was at its height.  The fad is OVER; the bubble has burst, the craze has passed, the Third Age has ended.

Reminds me of a train show I visited in Milwaukee a few years back.  I was at the Soundtraxx booth (computer chips to put inside engines that make sound) and some bozo was bitching out one of the VPs for how high prices were.  After bozo left she just slumped, and I said "If it makes you feel any better, some of us really do understand how thin your margins really are."  She said "If I wanted to make money I'd still be in investment banking, not model trains."

How do you make a million dollars with an RPG company?  Start with two million.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: yosemitemike on December 13, 2015, 10:46:54 PM
I remember His Skarka-ness  bitching and moaning about how he deserved to make a living as a full time RPG writer and couldn't.  That was back when the market was larger and healthier than it is now.  White Wolf has gone from selling 30,000+ copies of a WoD core book to relying on crowdfunding to get them out at all.  The only real money to be made is in tie-in novels that mostly sell to people who don't play the game.  Even then only the Forgotten Realms tie-in novels made any money and that's because people like the authors that write them rather than caring about the Forgotten Realms as an RPG setting.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 13, 2015, 11:17:50 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;868798
I really think there's room for the industry to grow these days.  I've gotten at least a dozen kids into roleplaying and wargaming in my store, but what it's taken has been a lot of patience and hard work and patience.  Mmporgs are a terrible training ground for even D&D.  Right now one of those kids is DMing and I'm playing, I always feel that good players are the greater need these days.  Everyone has a story to tell and everyone wants to be the star, but what's needed is a passing of the techniques required to survive outside a padded cell, and not just in games but in life.

Planning, caution, resource management, and problem solving skills are hardly in evidence among these refuges from the land of easy solutions spooned out like pabulum from flickering screens.


Agreed. What you are doing in your store is a pretty big portion of what keep this hobby going. I'm delighted to say that after drifting away from this over the past few years, here in town The Source is coming back to this approach. Which is why I buy stuff from them, a half hour drive away, then from the game store that's five minutes away and where the store staff is way too busy looking at their laptops behind the counter...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 13, 2015, 11:26:33 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;868827
And don't forget, in a game like WoW when a new dungeon or raid comes out, the solution is posted online within a few days.  They do not even pretend to teach figuring out what to do, they are all about following directions.

I know I've told the story of Gary in his last years commenting about how young players at conventions would roll characters, charge headfirst into Greyhawk castle, get wiped out by the kobolds because they knew nothing about positioning or flanks or even looking behind you, and then roll up new characters and to it all over again.

He never could figure out what was going on, but to anybody who's heard the "Tonight our guild made its fifth attempt to blah blah blah," it makes perfect sense.


Agreed.

The famous convention story:
Player: "What edition of D & D will we be playing in this session?"
GM: "Hello, I'm Dave Arneson! Nice to meet you!"

And it works both ways, too; had a guest GM in for a game session in the game room a while back, and it was grim. He'd written murder mystery scenario for Tekumel, which was actually pretty good. He' a huge fan of 4.0, and he'd written the adventure in the form of a series of descriptive pages. He'd read the page, and the players would react to what they'd been read. The catch was that unless and until the players gave the only correct response, the game could not proceed to the next page of the scenario. It was like watching somebody read through a computer program; one of the players actually fell asleep at the table.

I had to intervene a couple of times, otherwise we'd still be in the basement yet. Unnerving, it was.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 13, 2015, 11:30:19 PM
Quote from: yosemitemike;868829
People who think that they are going to get piles of money out of an RPG IP in 2015 are just plain delusional.  Companies are cagey about sales numbers but people who are in a position to know are talking about print copy sales in the hundreds and pdf sales in the tens with a book that sells in the thousands of copies being considered quite successful.  WotC has drastically reduced the resources going into to D&D because even though it's one of the top two best selling RPGs it makes a pittance compared to what they make on Magic.

If they think they will make tons and tons of money if they can just get control of that IP, they are kidding themselves.


Could not agree more; there are a lot of very pragmatic realists in the business, who are fully aware of what is happening - and since they love the game, they create for the love of the thing.

And there are some people who are convinced, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that there are millions of dollars out there just waiting to be plucked by them. I've been having to deal with too many of the latter; I wish I'd been able to deal with more of the former.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 13, 2015, 11:34:04 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;868832
Oh, my, they HAVE been busy!

You know, besides the sheer shitheadedness of this all, the other thing that amazes me is that the myth of "big money in the RPG world" still persists.  D&D hit its zenith in 1982 when it was featured in "E.T. the Extraterrestrial."  It's been downhill ever since.  Even though it's a good size niche hobby it's nowhere near what it was at its height.  The fad is OVER; the bubble has burst, the craze has passed, the Third Age has ended.

Reminds me of a train show I visited in Milwaukee a few years back.  I was at the Soundtraxx booth (computer chips to put inside engines that make sound) and some bozo was bitching out one of the VPs for how high prices were.  After bozo left she just slumped, and I said "If it makes you feel any better, some of us really do understand how thin your margins really are."  She said "If I wanted to make money I'd still be in investment banking, not model trains."

How do you make a million dollars with an RPG company?  Start with two million.

*Snort* I've had the same thing said about the miniatures business, too.

Yep; agree with you about the reality of the situation. There are some folks out there, that you and I both know, who are convinced otherwise. They're still waiting for the money to come rolling in, too.

I really feel for the Soundtraxx person; how many times did we have to listen to the same tirades at Origins and Gen Con?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 13, 2015, 11:45:39 PM
Quote from: yosemitemike;868847
I remember His Skarka-ness  bitching and moaning about how he deserved to make a living as a full time RPG writer and couldn't.  That was back when the market was larger and healthier than it is now.  White Wolf has gone from selling 30,000+ copies of a WoD core book to relying on crowdfunding to get them out at all.  The only real money to be made is in tie-in novels that mostly sell to people who don't play the game.  Even then only the Forgotten Realms tie-in novels made any money and that's because people like the authors that write them rather than caring about the Forgotten Realms as an RPG setting.

Yep; there are quite a few people who are utterly convinced that the RPG business owes them a living - they are so obviously head and shoulders above the rest of us that it should be obvious that we need to send them our money.

Your comments about 'tie-in' novels are very, very accurate. When I started writing "To Serve The Petal Throne" I assumed from the beginning that there would be no money in it for me. I assumed, again from the beginning, that I'd post it up on a website somewhere and people could simply read the thing. We'll see what happens - but I do not have 'great expectations' of being able to retire on the thing. The market is just too small. And I'm not expecting to 'break through' into the mass market, either; I suspect I'm far too out of fashion with my sword and planet tales...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on December 13, 2015, 11:55:34 PM
Though actually, the various humorous rpg videos are pretty bad for new players too.  When they think the fun of the game is wrecking it for everyone or just being an idiot for laughs.  The number of these kids that push away from the table in a rage any time their actions have consequences is tragic.

But they do grow.  I've done absolutely everything wrong with my store.  I've committed every retail and business sin known to man and indeed it's been costly but I've been at it four years, building a community and a culture.  And it's my belief that it's coming along.  Slowly to be sure but where I relied on a trio of big spenders in the first three years, I've now got a much broader base and many of them are in their first jobs and the shine of liquor and cars is wearing thin and they're trickling back in.

If we want our hobby to thrive we have to stop marginalizing each other and hiding in our select little non-inclusive groups.  We have to get out and teach and let the new kids make their own mistakes.  While roleplaying has some limitations that make it a hard sell to mainstream folks who have trouble fitting 3 hours of D&D into their 20 hours a week of television watching, I believe we can grow beyond the shackles of the past.  The hottest show on television is a medieval fantasy and the big ticket movies are about Marvel superheroes.  This could be our finest hour if we could just get our heads out of our asses.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 14, 2015, 12:34:09 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;868859
Though actually, the various humorous rpg videos are pretty bad for new players too.  When they think the fun of the game is wrecking it for everyone or just being an idiot for laughs.  The number of these kids that push away from the table in a rage any time their actions have consequences is tragic.

But they do grow.  I've done absolutely everything wrong with my store.  I've committed every retail and business sin known to man and indeed it's been costly but I've been at it four years, building a community and a culture.  And it's my belief that it's coming along.  Slowly to be sure but where I relied on a trio of big spenders in the first three years, I've now got a much broader base and many of them are in their first jobs and the shine of liquor and cars is wearing thin and they're trickling back in.

If we want our hobby to thrive we have to stop marginalizing each other and hiding in our select little non-inclusive groups.  We have to get out and teach and let the new kids make their own mistakes.  While roleplaying has some limitations that make it a hard sell to mainstream folks who have trouble fitting 3 hours of D&D into their 20 hours a week of television watching, I believe we can grow beyond the shackles of the past.  The hottest show on television is a medieval fantasy and the big ticket movies are about Marvel superheroes.  This could be our finest hour if we could just get our heads out of our asses.


Agreed. The look of absolute wonder on the faces of the 'kids' - the 'younger people' - I had as they discovered actual role-playing was incredible. That' what made it all worthwhile for me, for literally decades.

And, unlike a lot of retail people, you have the sense to learn from your experiences. That's vital.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on December 14, 2015, 01:31:05 AM
One suspicion I have is that glossy hard backs are killing us.  I think I've got a pretty good handle on how we got there.  With a declining market place manufacturers decided that they needed to wring the maximum dollar value out of each customer.  The problem is that after fifteen years of that, the old guard have entire basements full of the things and the new kids see the prices as a serious barrier.  It's why Palladium, for all its faults, keeps trucking along.  If you're a hungry student, $30 for a complete game looks more appealing than $150 for a three book core set with a dozen $50 supplements.

Never mind the endless churn of new editions every two or three years at that same price, deliberately incompatible with the previous to prevent any recycling of material.

Admittedly, the kids at my store are mostly what you'd call disadvantaged or middle lower class or something, the one kid's dad drops a fair bit from time to time but most of them just don't have the money it takes to keep up with console gaming.

It isn't that I don't like pretty books.  But I think we're drowning in them and the sheer number of them drives down the sales figures across the board.  I think the OGL actually lights the road ahead here.  I think there's too many game systems held by companies that in aggressively defending their IP drive people to go into competition with them instead of supporting them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 14, 2015, 02:02:10 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;868866
One suspicion I have is that glossy hard backs are killing us.  I think I've got a pretty good handle on how we got there.  With a declining market place manufacturers decided that they needed to wring the maximum dollar value out of each customer.  The problem is that after fifteen years of that, the old guard have entire basements full of the things and the new kids see the prices as a serious barrier.  It's why Palladium, for all its faults, keeps trucking along.  If you're a hungry student, $30 for a complete game looks more appealing than $150 for a three book core set with a dozen $50 supplements.

Never mind the endless churn of new editions every two or three years at that same price, deliberately incompatible with the previous to prevent any recycling of material.

Admittedly, the kids at my store are mostly what you'd call disadvantaged or middle lower class or something, the one kid's dad drops a fair bit from time to time but most of them just don't have the money it takes to keep up with console gaming.

It isn't that I don't like pretty books.  But I think we're drowning in them and the sheer number of them drives down the sales figures across the board.  I think the OGL actually lights the road ahead here.  I think there's too many game systems held by companies that in aggressively defending their IP drive people to go into competition with them instead of supporting them.


Oh, yes, very much so. I see the same issue with miniatures, where the relatively high cost-per-figure for a lot of the models is a very serious barrier to new players. It does not help that several companies have made the most of this strategy by pricing the most powerful miniatures (in their proprietary rules)  at the top of the range. I've looked at a number of RPGs over the past few years, and the 'sticker shock' from looking at the prices to get the needed books has made me put the books back on the shelf. I've had the same issue with some of the miniatures I've looked at recently - I just can't justify the cost.

What I did with my 'younger players' was have them look at / borrow books, and then invest if they liked what they saw. Ditto with miniatures, too. That 'trial run' approach seemed to help a lot - got some sales for the FLGS, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: yosemitemike on December 14, 2015, 02:20:03 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868858
Yep; there are quite a few people who are utterly convinced that the RPG business owes them a living - they are so obviously head and shoulders above the rest of us that it should be obvious that we need to send them our money.


He was utterly convinced that he was entitled to make a living writing RPGs.  The sense of entitlement he displayed was mind-boggling to me.  As icing on the entitlement cake, I seem to remember that he was living in New York, New York at the time which is one of the most expensive places to live in the US.
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868858
When I started writing "To Serve The Petal Throne" I assumed from the beginning that there would be no money in it for me. I assumed, again from the beginning, that I'd post it up on a website somewhere and people could simply read the thing. We'll see what happens - but I am do not have 'great expectations' of being able to retire on the thing.


Given the reality of book publishing today, that's a wise assumption.
http://timgrahl.com/the-10-awful-truths-about-book-publishing/
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 14, 2015, 02:52:25 AM
Quote from: yosemitemike;868870
He was utterly convinced that he was entitled to make a living writing RPGs.  The sense of entitlement he displayed was mind-boggling to me.  As icing on the entitlement cake, I seem to remember that he was living in New York, New York at the time which is one of the most expensive places to live in the US.


Given the reality of book publishing today, that's a wise assumption.
http://timgrahl.com/the-10-awful-truths-about-book-publishing/


Understood. It all reminds me of the time in the early 1980s when everybody thought that they could write the new D&D: "If those two idiots could do it, then I can do a lot better." Lots and lots of people, whom we had to listen to at conventions, were very full of themselves and their wonderful new RPGs that were going to take the world by storm and put TSR out of business.

These days, of course, we have 'desktop publishing', as it used to be called, and the Internet to distribute the product. It's about the only way the second edition of my miniatures rules will ever see the light of day - and I expect to have maybe 100 'views'/'downloads'/'etc.' for it.

"To Serve The Petal Throne" started out as a series of stories for my kids, my grandkids, my nieces,  and my nephews. Anybody else is certainly welcome to come along for the ride, of course... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: yosemitemike on December 14, 2015, 03:56:49 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;868866
 It's why Palladium, for all its faults, keeps trucking along.  If you're a hungry student, $30 for a complete game looks more appealing than $150 for a three book core set with a dozen $50 supplements.


Palladium has done an excellent job of keeping everything inexpensive, in print and readily available.  I can hop over there, pick up a copy of Palladium fantasy for ~$27 and be good to go.  There hasn't been a new edition since 1996 so the old books are still compatible.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;868869
. I've looked at a number of RPGs over the past few years, and the 'sticker shock' from looking at the prices to get the needed books has made me put the books back on the shelf. I've had the same issue with some of the miniatures I've looked at recently - I just can't justify the cost..


$50-60 core books are pretty normal now.  It's looking like $45 will be the new standard price for major Pathfinder sourcebooks from now on.  I doubt if the margins on the $60 core books for, say, The Strange are very high considering that's a full color hardback printed on all glossy paper with some really nice art throughout but it's still $60 to get the core book.

I guess they figure that since sales volumes won't be high anyway they might as well get as what they can for each sale.  If margins are the same, you get twice as much by selling a $60 book as you do selling a $30 book after all.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: nDervish on December 14, 2015, 05:52:19 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868854

The famous convention story:
Player: "What edition of D & D will we be playing in this session?"
GM: "Hello, I'm Dave Arneson! Nice to meet you!"


Did that clarify anything for the player?  It just reminds me of a "feeling my age" moment I had last year, when I was talking to a D&D5 DM and I started comparing recent D&D editions to the early versions, only to discover that he had no idea what a "Gygax" or a "TSR" were.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 14, 2015, 08:14:15 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868858
Yep; there are quite a few people who are utterly convinced that the RPG business owes them a living - they are so obviously head and shoulders above the rest of us that it should be obvious that we need to send them our money.

Your comments about 'tie-in' novels are very, very accurate. When I started writing "To Serve The Petal Throne" I assumed from the beginning that there would be no money in it for me. I assumed, again from the beginning, that I'd post it up on a website somewhere and people could simply read the thing. We'll see what happens - but I do not have 'great expectations' of being able to retire on the thing. The market is just too small. And I'm not expecting to 'break through' into the mass market, either; I suspect I'm far too out of fashion with my sword and planet tales...


Well, I can't wait for TStPT to be finished. Even though it's only "fan fiction" and not official...I will some how have a hardcover copy made for my enjoyment. Old Chirine is still ruffling Khéshchal feathers(some things never change)...

And Uncle you are a rich man. By virtue of the life you have lived thus far, you are far richer than any prince or emperor. You command and have the respect of your family, clan, and legion. May the blessings of The Lord of the Flame be with you.

Be well.

H ;0)

PS Questions forthcoming
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on December 14, 2015, 10:08:35 AM
As just a single point of comparison average 2015 movie price in the US is $8.34. When D&D came out in 1974 the average movie price was $1.87. Buying a copy of D&D cost $10.00 plus shipping and handling. (It took a while before D&D showed up in stores.) If games increased at the same rate as movies (no particular reason they should, but both are leisure entertainment and to some extent are economic substitutes) the OD&D rules would cost $44.46. And OD&D was many things, but a glossy, hardcover it was not.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 14, 2015, 01:18:57 PM
Quote from: yosemitemike;868878
$50-60 core books are pretty normal now.  It's looking like $45 will be the new standard price for major Pathfinder sourcebooks from now on.  I doubt if the margins on the $60 core books for, say, The Strange are very high considering that's a full color hardback printed on all glossy paper with some really nice art throughout but it's still $60 to get the core book.

I guess they figure that since sales volumes won't be high anyway they might as well get as what they can for each sale.  If margins are the same, you get twice as much by selling a $60 book as you do selling a $30 book after all.


Understood. In the old model of publishing, larger print runs reduced unit costs dramatically, which is why one would see pallets of product sitting in the warehouse; printing 5000 copies and pulping 2500 could actually increase the profits on a title. These days, I'd hazard a guess that a $30 retail book is barely breaking even, while a $60 one is showing a profit.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 14, 2015, 01:23:32 PM
Quote from: nDervish;868889
Did that clarify anything for the player?  It just reminds me of a "feeling my age" moment I had last year, when I was talking to a D&D5 DM and I started comparing recent D&D editions to the early versions, only to discover that he had no idea what a "Gygax" or a "TSR" were.


Gotcha; very good point. The game session was listed in the program book as "Blackmoor with Dave Arneson", and the GM was listed as Dave Arneson. To me, that would have told me that it was going to be as close to the original games as one was likely to get.

However, you do raise a very good point - I've had the same thing happen to me, when I've mentioned all three of The Big Three, and Dave Wesely. Heck, I've run into people who don't know what Braunsteins are, but that's not all that surprising.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 14, 2015, 01:37:06 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;868906
Well, I can't wait for TStPT to be finished. Even though it's only "fan fiction" and not official...I will some how have a hardcover copy made for my enjoyment. Old Chirine is still ruffling Khéshchal feathers(some things never change)...

And Uncle you are a rich man. By virtue of the life you have lived thus far, you are far richer than any prince or emperor. You command and have the respect of your family, clan, and legion. May the blessings of The Lord of the Flame be with you.

Thank you for those kind words. I do agree with you about the 'fan fiction' / 'official' dichotomy; I prefer to be the former, despite this type of writing being looked down upon by 'serious' writers. The book is a series of recollections, telling the story of our games with Phil from the perspective of one of the players; there are no rules, no charts, no stats, no tables - if somebody wants to use it as a source of adventures, then they'll have to do their own take on the rules they'll use. In some ways, it's a very considered hearkening back to the days it comes from, when GMs created their own rules for running their creations.

I'm also not planning on doing anything like footnotes; this is not a 'academic' or 'scholarly' study of Phil's gaming. I'll leave that to somebody like Jon Peterson, who's qualified to do it. This is a book about the adventures we had, the people we met, and the world we explored. Nothing more, nothing less. I will include some things like a timeline of events, so the reader can follow things - it does get a little complex - and some 'backstory' material to explain some things. But, I'll keep this to a minimum, and refer the reader to Phil's own works.

We are looking at all options for publication; that will be the job of the publisher and his production team, with my help in rewrites and any material that they think they need. I'm just the storyteller, really.

I'd agree that I've been very, very blessed, both in my gaming career and in real life. I've had the very good fortune to meet and become friends with some truly gifted and amazing people - and picked up an equally amazing and gifted family along the way. Both in the book and out of it... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 14, 2015, 01:40:59 PM
Quote from: Bren;868921
As just a single point of comparison average 2015 movie price in the US is $8.34. When D&D came out in 1974 the average movie price was $1.87. Buying a copy of D&D cost $10.00 plus shipping and handling. (It took a while before D&D showed up in stores.) If games increased at the same rate as movies (no particular reason they should, but both are leisure entertainment and to some extent are economic substitutes) the OD&D rules would cost $44.46. And OD&D was many things, but a glossy, hardcover it was not.


Very good point! Inflation has hit everybody; I'd love to see what a comparison of household income looks like against these numbers. I may be making the most money I've ever had, but my buying power seems to be much smaller then is used to be.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: RPGPundit on December 14, 2015, 03:00:59 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868764
Hell if I know; this is coming from gamers I've spoken with over the past eight years, and these seem to be popular buzz words and phrases - just like "maintaining the brand identity" in regards to Tekumel publishing gets bandied about. Or like "Gamist"? "Narrativist"? "Simulationist"? for that matter. (Phil was all three, often in the same game session. Just saying.)


Almost all gamers are all three. The Forge claimed that any game that used more than one was "incoherent" and "inferior". But every single successful RPG does ALL THREE.
And, moreso, NONE of the three are actually the most important thing(s) in the gaming experience. Immersion and versimilitude are.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 14, 2015, 08:16:23 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868958
I'm just the storyteller, really.


Another example of where that can lead.
http://podiobooks.com/title/trader-tales-1-quarter-share/

Nathan Lowell started by telling a story the old fashioned way (audio).
Then when there was interest generated from that, he converted the stories into books.

A good Storyteller is a wonderful find, even if it takes a little practice to get this "new media" stuff to come out the way they want.

With a good speaking voice, you could actually "tell" your stories.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 14, 2015, 10:13:31 PM
Quote from: Bren;868921
As just a single point of comparison average 2015 movie price in the US is $8.34. When D&D came out in 1974 the average movie price was $1.87. Buying a copy of D&D cost $10.00 plus shipping and handling. (It took a while before D&D showed up in stores.) If games increased at the same rate as movies (no particular reason they should, but both are leisure entertainment and to some extent are economic substitutes) the OD&D rules would cost $44.46. And OD&D was many things, but a glossy, hardcover it was not.


On the other hand, it was the whole game, not just the "Players' Handbook" for $35.

The original WEG Star Wars game first edition was also a marvel of brevity.

Honestly, more than price these days I'm likely to get turned off by page count.  I don't WANT a game that's multiples of fucking 350 page books.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 15, 2015, 02:15:16 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;868975
Almost all gamers are all three. The Forge claimed that any game that used more than one was "incoherent" and "inferior". But every single successful RPG does ALL THREE.
And, moreso, NONE of the three are actually the most important thing(s) in the gaming experience. Immersion and versimilitude are.


Gotcha. I never really understood GNS theory; I thought it felt like 'over-thinking' the subject.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 15, 2015, 02:18:37 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;869042
Another example of where that can lead.
http://podiobooks.com/title/trader-tales-1-quarter-share/

Nathan Lowell started by telling a story the old fashioned way (audio).
Then when there was interest generated from that, he converted the stories into books.

A good Storyteller is a wonderful find, even if it takes a little practice to get this "new media" stuff to come out the way they want.

With a good speaking voice, you could actually "tell" your stories.
=


Well, you'd have to listen to my YouTube videos to see if I have a decent speaking voice.

We have thought about an audio book version of the thing. I am very lucky, in that I have friends who are some really incredible voice-over artists; if I do an audio version, I'll be having them do the voices - it'll sound a lot better with these professionals doing it! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 15, 2015, 02:22:27 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;869057
On the other hand, it was the whole game, not just the "Players' Handbook" for $35.

The original WEG Star Wars game first edition was also a marvel of brevity.

Honestly, more than price these days I'm likely to get turned off by page count.  I don't WANT a game that's multiples of fucking 350 page books.


I'd agree with that. A friend brought over his copy of FATE to run a game here, and I nearly fainted at the sheer size of the thing. And what startled me was how much of the core book was devoted to explaining what I had thought were very basic and fundamental information about what a role-playing game was and how it's played. Kind of unsettling, actually...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 15, 2015, 12:58:39 PM
I've been thinking about clans again. Just wondering what features a clanhouse would have. For example, any self respecting clan in Jakalla has...a garden, bathing pool, library, exercise hall. How this differs from low status to high status clans? Also what kinds of servants can be found toiling away. And as far as slaves go in general, are they more personal, or can they serve/belong to the clan as well? So back to business Great Lord. Many thanks in advance.

I have some more questions, but this is good for starters...

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 15, 2015, 02:00:21 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;869121
I've been thinking about clans again. Just wondering what features a clanhouse would have. For example, any self respecting clan in Jakalla has...a garden, bathing pool, library, exercise hall. How this differs from low status to high status clans? Also what kinds of servants can be found toiling away. And as far as slaves go in general, are they more personal, or can they serve/belong to the clan as well? So back to business Great Lord. Many thanks in advance.

I have some more questions, but this is good for starters...

H :0)


Great question! Let's have a go at it!

Yes, a good medium to high clan will have all the features you mentioned. The 'clan house' is often a series of buildings - a complex of halls, dormitories, and service facilities. For an example of this, may I suggest a place that Phil mentioned he'd visited: Padmanabhapuram Palace. Do a Google search, and you'll find all sorts of useful information on this wonderful complex. Lower - and usually poorer - clans will have a lot less of anything, but will still have housing and service buildings in a much smaller compound. Normally, all of these compounds are walled, with a 'formal' gate at the front - the side facing the main street that the clan house is on - and service entrances at the rear, off of the smaller 'back streets'.

The wealthier the clan, the better and more 'swanky' (Phil's word) the place will be. The reverse is true, of course. Note that this is not connected with status - while normally, higher status clans will also be more wealthy, there are examples of relatively poor clans also being of very high status - the Clan of the Striding Incantation, the very small and very secretive clan of puppeteers, has small but decent clan houses - often just a building or two - but almost absurdly high status; they have no political power, but very, very great prestige. (Having them perform at your party is considered to be a huge social coup!)

So, facility-wise, you'll find everything you'd expect in an Edwardian great house or in a large hotel all the way on down to a set of shacks in the bad part of town. It all depends on the money, and on the age and status.

Servant-wise, may I suggest a wonderful little book on the subject? Have a look at: "The Duties of Servants: A Practical Guide to the Routine of Domestic Service", by Jan Barnes. This is an Edwardian guide to the subject, and very useful to the GM. Think "Downton Abbey"; there are a lot of servants running around the clan house, keeping the place going and the residents more-or-less happy. You'll have maids, porters, bearers, cooks, stable men, gardeners, and everything else that a wealthy clan will be able to have. A lot of the time, the 'servants' will also be members of their own clans, and the two (or more) clans have been allies for generations. Sea Blue, for example, will have Turning Wheel bearers and carters, and this is true for other clans as well.

The Tsolyani thrive on these kinds of relationships; it's all about connection and tradition. One certainly can hire personal servants, but the clan will be a bit scandalized and their allied clans will be a bit insulted; you will hear about it, from your chamberlain in your quarters: "My Lord, my family has been drawing your bath for twelve generations; perhaps you could find a place in your household for my nephew?" and so on. A 'hired' servant faces a number of difficulties when trying to 'fit in' to an established household, and needs to tread carefully so as not to upset people. I should note that a personally-hired servant will have to be paid for personally; the clan will not help. If the servant is 'hired' through the clan's alliances, then there's a very good chance that the clan will provide a small stipend to help pay the servant's wages.

Servants are not slaves; slaves are not all that common, at the higher levels of society, in anything except exotic or menial jobs. It's like a pyramid; the vast majority of slaves are owned by the Imperium, the Temples, or the clans, and are pretty much unskilled and unpaid labor on farms, building sites, or other such things. Slaves in clan houses, are more high-status - as much as a slave can be - and are usually treated much better then the vast majority of slaves. You can find them in just about any position in the clan house, from garden sweepers to cooks to valets. The clan's slaves, whose families may have been in the clan's ownership for generations, will occupy the better positions, while slaves owned personally will normally be in either personal attendance or in very low-status positions. Like with hired servants, they will need to be diplomatic in their relationships with the established staff of the clan house.

As is mentioned in The Sourcebook, buying slaves is not considered to be a 'socially proper' affair. Slavers are pretty much considered to be the lowest of the low, and very - very, very! - low class and low status. Owning slaves is considered to show off one's wealth, just like fine clothes.

Does this help? Am I getting you what you're looking for?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 16, 2015, 01:56:48 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;869132
Great question! Let's have a go at it!

Yes, a good medium to high clan will have all the features you mentioned. The 'clan house' is often a series of buildings - a complex of halls, dormitories, and service facilities. For an example of this, may I suggest a place that Phil mentioned he'd visited: Padmanabhapuram Palace. Do a Google search, and you'll find all sorts of useful information on this wonderful complex. Lower - and usually poorer - clans will have a lot less of anything, but will still have housing and service buildings in a much smaller compound. Normally, all of these compounds are walled, with a 'formal' gate at the front - the side facing the main street that the clan house is on - and service entrances at the rear, off of the smaller 'back streets'.

The wealthier the clan, the better and more 'swanky' (Phil's word) the place will be. The reverse is true, of course. Note that this is not connected with status - while normally, higher status clans will also be more wealthy, there are examples of relatively poor clans also being of very high status - the Clan of the Striding Incantation, the very small and very secretive clan of puppeteers, has small but decent clan houses - often just a building or two - but almost absurdly high status; they have no political power, but very, very great prestige. (Having them perform at your party is considered to be a huge social coup!)

So, facility-wise, you'll find everything you'd expect in an Edwardian great house or in a large hotel all the way on down to a set of shacks in the bad part of town. It all depends on the money, and on the age and status.

Servant-wise, may I suggest a wonderful little book on the subject? Have a look at: "The Duties of Servants: A Practical Guide to the Routine of Domestic Service", by Jan Barnes. This is an Edwardian guide to the subject, and very useful to the GM. Think "Downton Abbey"; there are a lot of servants running around the clan house, keeping the place going and the residents more-or-less happy. You'll have maids, porters, bearers, cooks, stable men, gardeners, and everything else that a wealthy clan will be able to have. A lot of the time, the 'servants' will also be members of their own clans, and the two (or more) clans have been allies for generations. Sea Blue, for example, will have Turning Wheel bearers and carters, and this is true for other clans as well.

The Tsolyani thrive on these kinds of relationships; it's all about connection and tradition. One certainly can hire personal servants, but the clan will be a bit scandalized and their allied clans will be a bit insulted; you will hear about it, from your chamberlain in your quarters: "My Lord, my family has been drawing your bath for twelve generations; perhaps you could find a place in your household for my nephew?" and so on. A 'hired' servant faces a number of difficulties when trying to 'fit in' to an established household, and needs to tread carefully so as not to upset people. I should note that a personally-hired servant will have to be paid for personally; the clan will not help. If the servant is 'hired' through the clan's alliances, then there's a very good chance that the clan will provide a small stipend to help pay the servant's wages.

Servants are not slaves; slaves are not all that common, at the higher levels of society, in anything except exotic or menial jobs. It's like a pyramid; the vast majority of slaves are owned by the Imperium, the Temples, or the clans, and are pretty much unskilled and unpaid labor on farms, building sites, or other such things. Slaves in clan houses, are more high-status - as much as a slave can be - and are usually treated much better then the vast majority of slaves. You can find them in just about any position in the clan house, from garden sweepers to cooks to valets. The clan's slaves, whose families may have been in the clan's ownership for generations, will occupy the better positions, while slaves owned personally will normally be in either personal attendance or in very low-status positions. Like with hired servants, they will need to be diplomatic in their relationships with the established staff of the clan house.

As is mentioned in The Sourcebook, buying slaves is not considered to be a 'socially proper' affair. Slavers are pretty much considered to be the lowest of the low, and very - very, very! - low class and low status. Owning slaves is considered to show off one's wealth, just like fine clothes.

Does this help? Am I getting you what you're looking for?


Great, thank you. As far as the clan making decisions, is it by a group of elders or is there one prominent member who calls the shots, or a combination of both?

Could you please expand on slavery a bit more? Since it has such a stigma attached with it, if for example I wanted to purchase slaves, I would send servants to the market to do so? Or go through a third party(a kind of broker)?

The ways of becoming a slave? Being born into it, punishment, captured durning war,...any other ways?

I would think that there are many Kaitars to be had trading slaves. Do the well to do invest discretely, or how might they be involved in it?

Thanks,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 16, 2015, 02:37:39 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;869252
Great, thank you. As far as the clan making decisions, is it by a group of elders or is there one prominent member who calls the shots, or a combination of both?

Could you please expand on slavery a bit more? Since it has such a stigma attached with it, if for example I wanted to purchase slaves, I would send servants to the market to do so? Or go through a third party(a kind of broker)?

The ways of becoming a slave? Being born into it, punishment, captured durning war,...any other ways?

I would think that there are many Kaitars to be had trading slaves. Do the well to do invest discretely, or how might they be involved in it?


You're welcome! Let me try to answer your questions in order, if I may...

Both; it varies to what degree amongst clans and 'chapters' in the various locations, but there's usually a 'council of elders' who make decisions - and this is normally led by one or more important members of the clan who make all of the executive decisions. Think 'legislature' confirming 'executive. The temples also work much the same way, with the senior officials making the day to day decisions, and those decisions reviewed and confirmed (or not) by the temple's 'council of prelates'.

Buying slaves. Well, you'd never socialize with a slaver; they do not get invited to anyone's parties. One would not normally send 'servants' to buy a slave; your clan would have a designated 'official' who would do this, and would accompany you if you were doing the buying yourself. This would be for the purchase of 'exotics', where there are private 'showings of the merchandise', and are very strictly formal - see also The Sourcebook on how these are run. Unskilled slaves are simply bought by the clan's 'over-seer', as a 'bulk commodity'. I'm not aware of any formal 'brokers', but you do see 'friend of a friend' sorts of things. Slavers don't publicaly advertise; they pass the word quietly to the people that they know, who pas it along to interested parties.

Yes, to all three. People are condemned to slavery for debt, and not for 'crimes'; criminals are usually simply executed, to put a very permanent stop to their careers. Ordinary people who get captured as a result of wars or rebellions are treated as for people born or condemned into slavery. Captured soldiers, unless exchanged, are either sacrificed or maimed so they can't use weapons; having trained warriors as slaves is pretty risky, as Gary Rudolph found out when he was the fief-holder in Ferenara. The rebellion that broke out after he armed his slave army was a very nasty one, and took quite a lot of effort to crush. (Mercenaries are a whole different matter, and subject to different rules.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 16, 2015, 05:39:41 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;868536
Quote from: AsenRG;868468
1) I'm even more amazed now:).
2) I'd say, forgive me for my frankness,  that they were focused on the wrong thing.
3) About 3800 of those visitors included...
4) They seem fun, I'll grant that;).
5) I guess so. Thinking of it, the group has changed completely. Maybe I should give some suggestions to the current roaster of players.

/QUOTE]

a. Yes, and so was I. All day Friday, and we all watched in stricken awe as the three of them did everything but bash the passing gamers over the hard to get their attention. It was one of the most surreal moments in my oft-times surreal life. I simply couldn't get my head around the situation. Three pretty young ladies in wisps of lame, vs. a dice simulator? Really?

b. I think you're right, but these two guys were gamers, and had a gamer's focus. Air Force people call it things like 'target fixation' and 'going head down in the cockpit', and these guys - as well as the passing gamers - had it in bucket loads. Arneson thought that it was hilarious that once he was standing at their booth, they got all sorts of traffic - Dave kept chortling about him being 'prettier' and 'more attractive' for two days, and kept on laughing about the situation for months.

c. :) Agreed!

d. Oh, they were; we had a lot of laughs all the rest of the weekend, we had a lot of fun doing some 'role-playing' at the booth. It was a very good time, and the icing on the cake was the Adventure Games guys being totally unable to figure out why my Tekumel merchandise was screaming off the table at supersonic speeds.

e. Well, play what you want to, and how you want to - it's all about you and your friends having fun!

A through D: Indeed.
E: I always do. I just might try and see whether the new group would like some miniatures.
The nice part is that either result would work for me;).


Quote
"Lord Chirine, you -"
"- really should introduce us -"
"- to your friend, because -"
"- you're telling him -"
"- our story!"

Ah. They're right, as usual. "Lord Asen, may I introduce Menwe, Sitre, and Ten'er? Ladies, Lord Asen, of whom I have spoken..."

(in chorus) "Hello, Lord Asen!" :) :) :)  [Well, there are three of them...]

Ah, sounds mildly familiar:)!

Quote
And yes, I have loved the figures from Dark Fable - after some three decades, I finally have all of the 'palace people' that we met in our adventure, and I can put faces (albeit 28mm ones) to all of these people. One of the real joys of gaming with Phil was watching him playing the NPCs; he could, and did, have conversations amongst them, doing all the parts by himself, and it left you sitting there in astonishment. He really was good - and it was very obvious that quite a few of the people that we'd meet were real people he'd met on his travels. It was part of the wonder...

I can and do conversations between NPCs. It's one of my favourite ways to drop hints, and most GMs I know are using it to a degree, too.

Fun fact: up until 3 years ago, I had no idea I'm doing a different voice for every NPC, or that I'm doing voices, at all. I was reading the people that spoke about troubles doing voices, and was scratching my head. "Why would anyone do that? I don't need to do it at all..."
And it turned out, I've been doing it all along (at least an year and a half previously - that's how long said players have been at my table, so they couldn't confirm about earlier). It was a surprise!

Now, doing the voices for the trio might be a challenge...:D

Quote from: chirine ba kal;868676
Right. First, there will be a short rant that you should feel free to ignore, and then I'll talk about how I set up a game like this.

[Rant follows.]
Well, yes, it is the second Saturday of the month, and normally we'd have played out this second half of the adventure. However, the players were all busy, and I doubt we'll be back to this game until January. It's been very difficult, over the past couple of years, to be able to get people together for gaming any any sort of regular basis; people have lives, and things like school do get in the way. It has not helped the group that we took a lot of hassle from various organizations, legal and otherwise, trying to get control of what's in my head. My memories (and my collections) are regarded by some people as 'collectable' and 'valuable as investments', and my book also seems to be seen as 'the pot of gold at the end of the Tekumel rainbow' for anyone who can get control of the property. All of this has had a very negative effect on my younger players, who all have better (and more fun!) things to do with their time then be served legal papers when gaming here at the house by the very people - the 'senior gamers, also called "Barker's Own", by some Tekumel fans - that they looked up to and respected. It's the same sort of mindless and ultimately pointless 'politics around the Petal Throne' that has dogged Tekumel for years.

To summarize thirty-some years in a nutshell, there are people out there who firmly believe that it's better to have no Tekumel then a Tekumel that's outside their control. I'm sick and tired of the feuding factions all kicking me, just 'cause "Chirine has all the good stuff, and we want it for ourselves." It's gotten old.
[Rant ends. Thank you for your patience. :) ]

Okay; back to the game. In this case, I made sure to have two possible entrances to the presumed Underworld on the table. This will be a true three-dimensional game, as you can go up inside the pyramid - it has four levels and does come apart for access - as well as the below-ground level. In past games, the creatures of the Underworld have managed to come up one of the unguarded shafts and surprise the players. It's much more entertaining, they way.

I like to make some quick sketches of the levels, and then I'll lay them out on the table with my set of modular Underworld tiles; I use wooden blocks (from IKEA, actually) to do walls, as these allow for better access and visibility for the players. I like to steal my floor plans from historical sources, either something that Phil did or something that he liked - I use Ancient Egyptian tomb plans a lot, as this was something that Phil did. Generally, I design 'one-off' complexes like this so that the closer and closer one gets to the center, the richer the rewards - and the more dangerous and risky the adventure. The 'gaming well' of my table is 48" x 48", and this allows for some pretty extensive Underworlds; you might want to have a look at the videos I have on You Tube of a similar game.

Generally, I don't use random tables to stock the Underworld. I think about what the rooms would be used for, in their historical contexts both in the real world and in Phil's; his Jakalla Underworld is full of closets and storeroom for the use of the people who live and work down there. I do the same thing; I then stock the rooms with all sorts of goodies, using my collection of 'detail' stuff. Barrels, weapons racks, thrones, statues, you name it - I got it. I also always make sure to make notes and take photos of whatever I've built, so that if we ever need to go back there, I can recreate the entire underworld as need be.

Next, I work up who's already there; no Hlutrgu, as you would really not be finding them in much of any situation other then along their nasty swamplands. However, this is not an issue, as Tekumel is very well-stocked with Dire Perils, and I have a lot of them on the shelves. Since this is a tomb complex, I would expect to find a lot of Undead, so out come the boxes of Undead and I play the role of the Ancient High Priest who originally stocked the place up with hordes of Tomb guardians. Each group is given a specific set of instructions, unless there will be a 'live' player to run them - this is a great job to give guests and visitors! - and they will act as per those instructions. This is as per Phil's practice; he used to note that the Undead are not the smartest beings around, and usually have to be directed by a live intelligence for maximum havoc. Luckily for me, I have some of those, too.

I can't say that I work all this out by whim; I go from what I saw and encountered in Phil's campaign, and his usual practices when he did stuff like this. I do keep careful notes, though, and I refer to these when the players find something. I should also note that the players can't see into anything unless they actually look through the doorway or go into a room; I use black paper to cover the rooms until they do this.

And I should also say that one does not need miniatures for all this; big sheets of paper, or the modern battle mats, will work just as well. Once the play starts, it pretty much runs itself, and all I do is facilitate what the players are doing.

Does this help?

That's just terrible. I'm sorry to read you were subjected to so much pressure.
And, might I add, for no reason at all. The spirit is out of the bottle, has been so since EPT was published.

Back to the game: If you were working that out during the game, just before the players reach the destination, that's what I'd call "Lazy GMing".
I must admit that I've recently warmed up to random tables. I mostly use those in Atomic Highway - a post-apocalyptic game - for "stuff that's just here for no particular reason". Of course, players are bound to find some use even for junk from time to time...
And Tekumel is a post-apocalyptic Swords and Planet setting. That's what the Eyes are, after all: remains from an ancient civilisation. It's just that the apocalypse was long enough ago most people don't take it as an apocalypse any longer...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;868678
This is a continuation of the previous post, but I'd like to step back for a moment and talk gaming philosophy, as it was practiced back in the 'pre-school' days. (I like to think of myself as a 'pre-school gamer'.)

It was the custom, back then, for the GM/referee to be the one to design and stock the particular scenario; a lot of this may have been because it was also usually the person running the game was also the one hosting it at their house or at the shop/club. The GM would draw up all the rooms or buildings, then devise what was in them. The players, in their exploration of the venue, would then find or not find things, and run into whatever Dire Perils had been set in place for them to find.

We played - and we're talking in my games and in Phil's - what would be called 'sandbox play' these days; the players made their own adventures, and it was up to the GM to stay ahead of them. It was more or less what Gronan's described as 'Free Kriegspiel', where the GM/referee ran things and was a very neutral party - my job is as a GM is to facilitate the players' adventure, and to let them do their thing. This does have some perils for the GM; a very active group can get way ahead of you, and a very passive group can bore you to tears. I've had both, over the years, and I tend to select my home gamers for the former; staying ahead of them is just as much for for me, really!

I, as GM, always knew what was in the chest in the room. It was up to the players to look in it or not, as they chose; it wasn't my issue. It was also my job to maintain the 'meta-campaign', the larger world-setting that the players moved about in and lived in as members of their society; I did all the backstage stuff, as we've mentioned in this thread, based on all the parameters that Phil had set out in his works. The players did what they wanted to, and had to deal with the consequences.

Check. That's what I had to re-invent (and then people on some other forums - Gronan, yourself, and Bren very much included! - helped me to fine-tune it).
Also, having done this helps you to really have a laugh while reading Ancient Wargaming...

Quote
I've been told that this is not what's been described to me as "true player character agency", and that I'm "too railroady"; I've even been accused of being a "story gamer" because of the meta game running in the background. I'm both baffled an confused by all this, especially when people tell me that my gaming is not 'proper RPG play'. Well, okay, but this is what we did, back in the day.

OK, the guy who accused you of railroading is smoking something really strong. I'm curious where he finds these halucinogens - I assume FBI would be curious as well.
The one with "true player agency" probably just means "you don't allow players narrative control, how could you..." seen that a couple times.
The one who accused you of being a story gamer is just funny. Your game is only as much a story game as OD&D and EPT are story games!
And, might I add, OD&D is (almost) a story game. A story game puts you in a given framework and makes sure that actions are processed according to a given set of cinematic laws (HP are that, when treated as something that only exists to allow a cool cinematic duel at the end of the movie - not the best mechanic for that goal, might I add, but it works).
Then, since the behaviour of characters in this kind of movies, novels or whatever is actually optimal, it emerges naturally.
Then the GM can just start setting up situations where you have to pick what you're going to fight for, and how much you're going to risk for any given value.


Quote
It kind of makes me want to post a warning sign on the door, or something.

Do it!
"Warning: Games Here Don't Conform To Theory Expectations!"
It should give some people fits, so it's worth it.

Quote from: David Johansen;868682

As to the legal stuff, I hope there's a special place in hell for people who having no capacity to create anything of worth themselves grasp hold of someone else's intellectual property and claim it for their own.  I'm not talking about work for hire in particular.  But as David Sims said of doing work for hire "They will never pay you more than the lawyers will cost them."

I hope you're right on the hell part.

Quote from: Bren;868687
That's a battle they've already lost. People can run Tekumel based on what is already out there in the wild.

What the pin-headed, controlling, nit wits can do is limit what resources are easily made available and limit the number of people who are exposed to the cool things its creator invented. It's tragic that they won't let the information out there so that Phil's legacy can get the widest possible exposure.

Yes.
I can run Tekumel on EPT alone. I've got EPT, Bethorm, and Swords and Glory 1: more than I'd need any time soon. I'd keep buying, because I like the setting, not because I need it.
And the slower the release, the more they risk "the metaplot effect": when you give GMs information slower than their campaigns need it, often some people would have come up with an alternative explanation!
And from that moment on, this explanation is the campaign's canon. If your info contradicts what is going on in my campaign, does anyone expect me to replay the last 15 sessions? Or would you bet on me re-evaluating whether I need more of your information?
Hint, it's going to be the latter.

So, as cyberpunk stories say (and I'm of the opinion that we're living in a cyberpunk world): Information Wants To Be Free!
The Street Finds Its Own Use For Things.
The latter includes deciding that what you're offering is useless - possibly due to you not releasing the info.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;868695
Understood. look at it from the point of the dozen twenty-something college students and high-school students I had in my game group. One would think that one would like to encourage young people to get into the hobby in general, and to learn about and enjoy Tekumel in particular. They had a lot of fun in Phil's world, and picked up on how it worked a while lot faster then you and I did - they have a lot more cross cultural knowledge then we did at their age, and were able to 'get' Tekumel very quickly and easily.

Sadly, the 'older and more experienced' people saw them as both a resource to be shamelessly exploited, and as a threat to their own position and prestige. These kids busted their butts to make Phil's memorial event happen, to cite just one example, and got tromped on as a result. What makes it even sadder were the contributions they were making to Tekumel as a whole - several of the new miniatures were their creations, after running into the creatures in our games.

And the various factions are still at it; too. I was taken out for breakfast last Sunday, my 59th birthday, by one of them as they wanted to 'kiss and make up' with me for all their legal threats - yes these are the same folks who cost me $800 in legal fees to get rid of them. I went, mostly because several of them had been friends for some thirty years.

Five hours later - but really good steak and eggs - I had gotten nothing from them besides all sorts of pressure to let them have my work and my book. No apologies, no excuses, no nothing; not even any remorse for the RICO conviction one of them had managed to rack up. (They have a fascinating legal history; the Internet is your friend. And my Missus is the Queen of the Internet.) They gave me the same old same old that they had given me the last time around, and I simply smiled sweetly and ate my breakfast. (Eggs over hard, please.) And with that, I got up, and several thirty-plus year friendships ended in a wet, rainy parking lot in South Minneapolis.

So it goes.

Well, you got a nice breakfast out of it. That's more than I'd have expected.
Sorry if that sounds heartless, but well - anyone who can walk to you and ask you to give over a book that's written as a kind of autobiography is someone I wouldn't expect much from.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;868696
Agreed. This thread, on this forum, is the only place where I'm active these days. I'll probably get my blog going again, now that I have a more regular work schedule, but I don't know how often I'll be posting or what about.

I'm suddenly very glad that I got fed up with another forum's unwritten and written rules and registered on this site. This thread has been actually useful for my own games - a rarity, might I add!

Quote
I've given up on 'outreach' to local gamers; I've been trying for several years to let people know about what I do, like the Braunsteins I run, and I have gotten no effective responses. I've been told that I need to be using a popular set of rules, that I need to run my games at specific times at specific locations, and that I need to change what I do so as to be more in step with modern gaming.

You can discard the rules argument and the "changing what you do" parts. As for specific times and specific locations, I don't even understand that. Don't you have a specific location at your home, and a specific time?

Quote
Well, all right, I can understand all that, but that's not something I can do and still be the gamer that I am, and have been since those hot summer nights in Coffmann Union.

So, once again, it goes.

That's the right approach!
I wish more people were taking it.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;868697
David, I'm sorry; I did the 'quote thing' wrong. here's my response to you:

Agreed. My problem has always been that I'm a 'populist', with the exact same attitude that you have. And, as I demonstrated, it does sell the merchandise; I seem to be the only person who ever made decent sales with Tekumel stuff.

Hmm, what's with this? I've helped organise a local semi-regular "game day" which accepts people new to RPGs as well... right now, it's one of my friends that's running it (he organises it roughly at 2d2-1 months).

I might actually run Tekumel next time. Or the time after that. I'm still deciding how to set it up, mostly.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;868764
Hell if I know; this is coming from gamers I've spoken with over the past eight years, and these seem to be popular buzz words and phrases - just like "maintaining the brand identity" in regards to Tekumel publishing gets bandied about. Or like "Gamist"? "Narrativist"? "Simulationist"? for that matter. (Phil was all three, often in the same game session. Just saying.)

I get this kind of thing from self-identified 'OSR' people, and from equally self-identified 'indie' people. Both ends of the gaming spectrum have also told me that we were also "too loosey-goosey" and "too handwavy" as well, when I describe the way Gary, Dave, and Phil played - heck, for that matter, I've been told that Dave Wesely ran the Braunsteins 'the wrong way'. From what I understand, those old guys didn't 'get' the right way to play, back in the day, and have had to be 'corrected' on their errant ways through the use of "proper interpretation" and "enhanced game mechanics".

Well, all right, I'm cool with whatever one wants to play in one's own campaign. I play the way I've always played, and I'm not likely to change that anytime soon. There seem to be some people who have an issue with that; sorry, but I am what I am; they can play their games, and I will play mine.

I think your last paragraph sums it up nicely.

Quote from: David Johansen;868766
Money changes everything.  Sadly properties like Tekumel and Traveller will never achieve that status.  They have obsessive fan bases but they don't have the ability to move beyond their niche and there just isn't that much money in that niche.  I've always wished Traveller could have reached the heights Warhammer 40000 did.  It's much more to my tastes and I believe a more grounded Star Wars with a grittier edge (don't get me started on T5 making psionics into the force) would do well in other media like comics and movies.  But even at its peak the roleplaying industry isn't making people rich.  I think it's because people don't have the frame of reference to understand how little money a million dollars really is.  They don't see the costs when they think of the sales figures.  And if the people in control won't let anyone else can make a buck on the property creative people are more likely to follow their own vision than have their work owned and controlled by people who don't have their best interests at heart.

It's the sad lesson of Jack Kirby's legacy.  You can almost single handedly create multimillion dollar properties for people and they'll never love you enough to give you a fair cut.

Traveller, probably no - though the money from Kickstarters allow for a bit of dough to be made, I believe. But I also happen to believe it's due to the fact that the game is billed as "hard SF", which a lot of people aren't too keen about.

Tekumel is another matter entirely. I'd expect there to be some resurgence of the genre in 5-10 years. It might yet become popular.
And I wish good luck to the Tekumel Foundation in contributing to that! I mean, I like the genre, and they're named after one of the best examples of it.

Quote from: David Johansen;868798
I really think there's room for the industry to grow these days.  I've gotten at least a dozen kids into roleplaying and wargaming in my store, but what it's taken has been a lot of patience and hard work and patience.  Mmporgs are a terrible training ground for even D&D.  Right now one of those kids is DMing and I'm playing, I always feel that good players are the greater need these days.  Everyone has a story to tell and everyone wants to be the star, but what's needed is a passing of the techniques required to survive outside a padded cell, and not just in games but in life.

Planning, caution, resource management, and problem solving skills are hardly in evidence among these refuges from the land of easy solutions spooned out like pabulum from flickering screens.

Agreed on MMORPGs, I'm still beating out the last "mmorpg lessons" out of some of my players.
I would add to the list of bad ideas "encounter levels" in some popular games, though. Some people are so used to it, they'd expect me to run "fair fights that the PCs can win".
I tell them how, after one of my earliest campaigns concluded, one of the players observed that 100% of the fights in it have started with a surprise round - for one side or for the other...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;868827
And don't forget, in a game like WoW when a new dungeon or raid comes out, the solution is posted online within a few days.  They do not even pretend to teach figuring out what to do, they are all about following directions.

I know I've told the story of Gary in his last years commenting about how young players at conventions would roll characters, charge headfirst into Greyhawk castle, get wiped out by the kobolds because they knew nothing about positioning or flanks or even looking behind you, and then roll up new characters and to it all over again.

He never could figure out what was going on, but to anybody who's heard the "Tonight our guild made its fifth attempt to blah blah blah," it makes perfect sense.

I remember being in an old school game with some presumably experienced gamers, and one of them telling me that "tactics never work in D&D". His reasoning is that when fights start, everyone charges anyway.
I kept trying to organise shieldwalls with polearms. Things changed when it became evident that this actually worked better.
That's in a nutshell what I do with my players. If they don't learn tactics, they get beaten by any remotely serious threat. And I tell them so, and even point out mistakes after the session.
Eventually, they learn.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;868854
Agreed.

The famous convention story:
Player: "What edition of D & D will we be playing in this session?"
GM: "Hello, I'm Dave Arneson! Nice to meet you!"

And it works both ways, too; had a guest GM in for a game session in the game room a while back, and it was grim. He'd written murder mystery scenario for Tekumel, which was actually pretty good. He' a huge fan of 4.0, and he'd written the adventure in the form of a series of descriptive pages. He'd read the page, and the players would react to what they'd been read. The catch was that unless and until the players gave the only correct response, the game could not proceed to the next page of the scenario. It was like watching somebody read through a computer program; one of the players actually fell asleep at the table.

I had to intervene a couple of times, otherwise we'd still be in the basement yet. Unnerving, it was.

BTW, that's just bad mystery design, according to most people that like mysteries.

Quote from: David Johansen;868866
One suspicion I have is that glossy hard backs are killing us.  I think I've got a pretty good handle on how we got there.  With a declining market place manufacturers decided that they needed to wring the maximum dollar value out of each customer.  The problem is that after fifteen years of that, the old guard have entire basements full of the things and the new kids see the prices as a serious barrier.  It's why Palladium, for all its faults, keeps trucking along.  If you're a hungry student, $30 for a complete game looks more appealing than $150 for a three book core set with a dozen $50 supplements.

Never mind the endless churn of new editions every two or three years at that same price, deliberately incompatible with the previous to prevent any recycling of material.

Admittedly, the kids at my store are mostly what you'd call disadvantaged or middle lower class or something, the one kid's dad drops a fair bit from time to time but most of them just don't have the money it takes to keep up with console gaming.

It isn't that I don't like pretty books.  But I think we're drowning in them and the sheer number of them drives down the sales figures across the board.  I think the OGL actually lights the road ahead here.  I think there's too many game systems held by companies that in aggressively defending their IP drive people to go into competition with them instead of supporting them.

I can confirm, more or less. The three obstacles I have to face when trying to get someone new into RPGs are:
"What is it?"
"But this is expensive!" (When it comes up after the session and I'm not in the mood, I answer "it's about two movie tickets, and we just played longer than two movies would be". I mean PDFs, though).
"Too much reading!" (My answer is usually "right, let me explain you the rules").
The last two might be in reverse order...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;869069
Gotcha. I never really understood GNS theory; I thought it felt like 'over-thinking' the subject.

It might be somewhat guilty of that, indeed. But at least the guy that came up with it was trying to think.
I suspect he just didn't communicate it all that well, but I'm too lazy to try and find out whether I'm right.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;869071
I'd agree with that. A friend brought over his copy of FATE to run a game here, and I nearly fainted at the sheer size of the thing. And what startled me was how much of the core book was devoted to explaining what I had thought were very basic and fundamental information about what a role-playing game was and how it's played. Kind of unsettling, actually...

Interesting - what Fate game was it? And what "basic and fundamental information" you think was being explained?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;869132
Great question! Let's have a go at it!

Yes, a good medium to high clan will have all the features you mentioned. The 'clan house' is often a series of buildings - a complex of halls, dormitories, and service facilities. For an example of this, may I suggest a place that Phil mentioned he'd visited: Padmanabhapuram Palace. Do a Google search, and you'll find all sorts of useful information on this wonderful complex. Lower - and usually poorer - clans will have a lot less of anything, but will still have housing and service buildings in a much smaller compound. Normally, all of these compounds are walled, with a 'formal' gate at the front - the side facing the main street that the clan house is on - and service entrances at the rear, off of the smaller 'back streets'.

The wealthier the clan, the better and more 'swanky' (Phil's word) the place will be. The reverse is true, of course. Note that this is not connected with status - while normally, higher status clans will also be more wealthy, there are examples of relatively poor clans also being of very high status - the Clan of the Striding Incantation, the very small and very secretive clan of puppeteers, has small but decent clan houses - often just a building or two - but almost absurdly high status; they have no political power, but very, very great prestige. (Having them perform at your party is considered to be a huge social coup!)

So, facility-wise, you'll find everything you'd expect in an Edwardian great house or in a large hotel all the way on down to a set of shacks in the bad part of town. It all depends on the money, and on the age and status.

Servant-wise, may I suggest a wonderful little book on the subject? Have a look at: "The Duties of Servants: A Practical Guide to the Routine of Domestic Service", by Jan Barnes. This is an Edwardian guide to the subject, and very useful to the GM. Think "Downton Abbey"; there are a lot of servants running around the clan house, keeping the place going and the residents more-or-less happy. You'll have maids, porters, bearers, cooks, stable men, gardeners, and everything else that a wealthy clan will be able to have. A lot of the time, the 'servants' will also be members of their own clans, and the two (or more) clans have been allies for generations. Sea Blue, for example, will have Turning Wheel bearers and carters, and this is true for other clans as well.

The Tsolyani thrive on these kinds of relationships; it's all about connection and tradition. One certainly can hire personal servants, but the clan will be a bit scandalized and their allied clans will be a bit insulted; you will hear about it, from your chamberlain in your quarters: "My Lord, my family has been drawing your bath for twelve generations; perhaps you could find a place in your household for my nephew?" and so on. A 'hired' servant faces a number of difficulties when trying to 'fit in' to an established household, and needs to tread carefully so as not to upset people. I should note that a personally-hired servant will have to be paid for personally; the clan will not help. If the servant is 'hired' through the clan's alliances, then there's a very good chance that the clan will provide a small stipend to help pay the servant's wages.

Servants are not slaves; slaves are not all that common, at the higher levels of society, in anything except exotic or menial jobs. It's like a pyramid; the vast majority of slaves are owned by the Imperium, the Temples, or the clans, and are pretty much unskilled and unpaid labor on farms, building sites, or other such things. Slaves in clan houses, are more high-status - as much as a slave can be - and are usually treated much better then the vast majority of slaves. You can find them in just about any position in the clan house, from garden sweepers to cooks to valets. The clan's slaves, whose families may have been in the clan's ownership for generations, will occupy the better positions, while slaves owned personally will normally be in either personal attendance or in very low-status positions. Like with hired servants, they will need to be diplomatic in their relationships with the established staff of the clan house.

As is mentioned in The Sourcebook, buying slaves is not considered to be a 'socially proper' affair. Slavers are pretty much considered to be the lowest of the low, and very - very, very! - low class and low status. Owning slaves is considered to show off one's wealth, just like fine clothes.

Does this help? Am I getting you what you're looking for?

These last two bits in bold actually kinda perplex me. Showing off wealth is almost what Tekumeli high society is about.
Why is showing off your wealth in another way frowned upon?
(I'd understand it if it was because Phil wanted to avoid associations with John Norman! But I suspect it's something else and that's something I'm missing).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 17, 2015, 02:39:18 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;869268


That's just terrible. I'm sorry to read you were subjected to so much pressure.
And, might I add, for no reason at all. The spirit is out of the bottle, has been so since EPT was published.

Back to the game: If you were working that out during the game, just before the players reach the destination, that's what I'd call "Lazy GMing".

OK, the guy who accused you of railroading is smoking something really strong. I'm curious where he finds these halucinogens - I assume FBI would be curious as well.
The one with "true player agency" probably just means "you don't allow players narrative control, how could you..." seen that a couple times.
The one who accused you of being a story gamer is just funny. Your game is only as much a story game as OD&D and EPT are story games!
And, might I add, OD&D is (almost) a story game. A story game puts you in a given framework and makes sure that actions are processed according to a given set of cinematic laws (HP are that, when treated as something that only exists to allow a cool cinematic duel at the end of the movie - not the best mechanic for that goal, might I add, but it works).
Then, since the behaviour of characters in this kind of movies, novels or whatever is actually optimal, it emerges naturally.
Then the GM can just start setting up situations where you have to pick what you're going to fight for, and how much you're going to risk for any given value.

Do it!
"Warning: Games Here Don't Conform To Theory Expectations!"
It should give some people fits, so it's worth it.

Yes.
I can run Tekumel on EPT alone. I've got EPT, Bethorm, and Swords and Glory 1: more than I'd need any time soon. I'd keep buying, because I like the setting, not because I need it.
And the slower the release, the more they risk "the metaplot effect": when you give GMs information slower than their campaigns need it, often some people would have come up with an alternative explanation!
And from that moment on, this explanation is the campaign's canon. If your info contradicts what is going on in my campaign, does anyone expect me to replay the last 15 sessions? Or would you bet on me re-evaluating whether I need more of your information?
Hint, it's going to be the latter.

So, as cyberpunk stories say (and I'm of the opinion that we're living in a cyberpunk world): Information Wants To Be Free!
The Street Finds Its Own Use For Things.
The latter includes deciding that what you're offering is useless - possibly due to you not releasing the info.


Well, you got a nice breakfast out of it. That's more than I'd have expected.
Sorry if that sounds heartless, but well - anyone who can walk to you and ask you to give over a book that's written as a kind of autobiography is someone I wouldn't expect much from.


I'm suddenly very glad that I got fed up with another forum's unwritten and written rules and registered on this site. This thread has been actually useful for my own games - a rarity, might I add!


You can discard the rules argument and the "changing what you do" parts. As for specific times and specific locations, I don't even understand that. Don't you have a specific location at your home, and a specific time?

That's the right approach!
I wish more people were taking it.

Hmm, what's with this? I've helped organise a local semi-regular "game day" which accepts people new to RPGs as well... right now, it's one of my friends that's running it (he organises it roughly at 2d2-1 months).

I might actually run Tekumel next time. Or the time after that. I'm still deciding how to set it up, mostly.

I think your last paragraph sums it up nicely.


Traveller, probably no - though the money from Kickstarters allow for a bit of dough to be made, I believe. But I also happen to believe it's due to the fact that the game is billed as "hard SF", which a lot of people aren't too keen about.
Tekumel is another matter entirely. I'd expect there to be some resurgence of the genre in 5-10 years. It might yet become popular.
And I wish good luck to the Tekumel Foundation in contributing to that! I mean, I like the genre, and they're named after one of the best examples of it.

BTW, that's just bad mystery design, according to most people that like mysteries.

Interesting - what Fate game was it? And what "basic and fundamental information" you think was being explained?

These last two bits in bold actually kinda perplex me. Showing off wealth is almost what Tekumeli high society is about.
Why is showing off your wealth in another way frowned upon?
(I'd understand it if it was because Phil wanted to avoid associations with John Norman! But I suspect it's something else and that's something I'm missing).


Right - let me try this in sections... :)

1. Pressure - The problem is that, over the years, I've been the lynchpin of getting Tekumel out to the world. These factions have the idea that if only they - and they alone - can get control of me, I'll continue to produce for them and they can have all the money and prestige - but without the work.
And yes, once EPT was published, this became nonsense. In the summer of 1975, to be exact.

2. 'Lazy GMing' - Nope, I don't work this out during the game. I do everything in advance, and have it all on note cards. I keep the note cards handy, but with my memory I usually don't need them.

3. Railroading - this is based on an assumption; this came from a local 'indie' gamer, who's of the opinion that any game that predates the OSR has got to be 'railroady' and without 'full player agency'. I've noticed that a lot of OSR and indie people have a lot of assumptions about the way I game, and won't game with me based on those assumptions. And, then, as you might expect, if they actually do watch a game I run, then they want to play...

And your points about OD&D being almost a story game are right on. At least, that's the way I saw it being played.

4. Information release - Yep. I said the same thing, many times over the years, and got blown off. Which is why we are where we are today.

5. Breakfast - I expected nothing, got nothing, and now we're done with them. And they still can't figure out why.

6. Usefullness - I try; keep asking questions!

7. Outreach - Well, I was told that I needed to move everything to the local game shop for the game, to suit their schedule. I pointed out that this was going to be a pretty big effort, and they looked at me blankly. So, no Braunstein for them.

8. Game design - Yeah, I thought so to, but this 'flowchart' approach is the way this person does all of his games. It's very ponderous, and take forever to get anywhere on the flowchart.

9. FATE - Basic FATE, or whatever the core rules are called. Huge rules book, I thought.

10. Buying slaves / owning slaves - You are right; owning slaves is considered to be a display of wealth and status. It's the act of buying of the slaves that's considered sordid and less then noble. People who buy lots of slaves are often considered 'new rich' and not all that classy; it's sort of assumed that a really proper clan has had slaves for generations, and so their slaves are better then some new ones bought by a newly rich person. So,  having slaves is a good thing, while buying them is a bad thing. (Maybe the stork brings them, or something.) I think it has a lot to do with the very low social status of the slavers, more then anything else.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 17, 2015, 03:07:15 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;869380


10. Buying slaves / owning slaves - You are right; owning slaves is considered to be a display of wealth and status. It's the act of buying of the slaves that's considered sordid and less then noble. People who buy lots of slaves are often considered 'new rich' and not all that classy; it's sort of assumed that a really proper clan has had slaves for generations, and so their slaves are better then some new ones bought by a newly rich person. So,  having slaves is a good thing, while buying them is a bad thing. (Maybe the stork brings them, or something.) I think it has a lot to do with the very low social status of the slavers, more then anything else.


Like many societies on this world, social rules in Tsolyanu aren't always logical!

Wine, slaves, and money are obviously best when they've mellowed in the family vaults for a few generations.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on December 17, 2015, 05:29:30 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;869383
Like many societies on this world, social rules in Tsolyanu aren't always logical!

Wine, slaves, and money are obviously best when they've mellowed in the family vaults for a few generations.
Why oaky tasting slaves and money are best must be another one of those illogical things.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: yosemitemike on December 17, 2015, 09:34:04 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;869380
It's the act of buying of the slaves that's considered sordid and less then noble. People who buy lots of slaves are often considered 'new rich' and not all that classy; it's sort of assumed that a really proper clan has had slaves for generations, and so their slaves are better then some new ones bought by a newly rich person. So,  having slaves is a good thing, while buying them is a bad thing. (Maybe the stork brings them, or something.) I think it has a lot to do with the very low social status of the slavers, more then anything else.


That sounds like a golden opportunity for some enterprising person to set up an agency to discretely acquire slaves and slave clothing for the nouveau riche so that they don't have to be seen doing so themselves.  

Disdain for new money has been pretty widespread among the aristocracy for a long time.  Aristocrats were bitching about the nouveau riche (though not by that term) in 8th century Greece.  New money becomes old money and therefore respectable in a few generations though.

New money is seen as vulgar, ostentatious and low class.  Such people are seen to be peasants pretending to nobility.  Proper nobles are born to nobility with good noble breeding and a proper noble upbringing not low blood and a peasant upbringing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 18, 2015, 01:19:59 AM
Okay, moving right along...I've just returned from the underworld with some treasures from the Latter Days. I bring my finds to my temple to see what I have. After being shown, they aren't very interested, nor is my clan. How would I go about selling what I do not want?

Now if I happened to be the ignoble sort, and I just want to make as much coin as possible with the least amount of attention. How might I go about that? How does the black market work?

Also just wondering if there are any organized crime groups moving behind the scenes of the Empire making things happen?

Thanks,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 18, 2015, 01:55:41 AM
Quote from: yosemitemike;869421
That sounds like a golden opportunity for some enterprising person to set up an agency to discretely acquire slaves and slave clothing for the nouveau riche so that they don't have to be seen doing so themselves.  

Disdain for new money has been pretty widespread among the aristocracy for a long time.  Aristocrats were bitching about the nouveau riche (though not by that term) in 8th century Greece.  New money becomes old money and therefore respectable in a few generations though.

New money is seen as vulgar, ostentatious and low class.  Such people are seen to be peasants pretending to nobility.  Proper nobles are born to nobility with good noble breeding and a proper noble upbringing not low blood and a peasant upbringing.


Agreed. The old Bednjallan clans look down on the old Engsvanyali clans, who look down on the modern Tsolyani clans. The Vriddi look down on everybody, including the Tlakotani, which is why the Imperium turns Fasiltum into a parking lot every few generations.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 18, 2015, 02:21:21 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;869453
Okay, moving right along...I've just returned from the underworld with some treasures from the Latter Days. I bring my finds to my temple to see what I have. After being shown, they aren't very interested, nor is my clan. How would I go about selling what I do not want?

Now if I happened to be the ignoble sort, and I just want to make as much coin as possible with the least amount of attention. How might I go about that? How does the black market work?

Also just wondering if there are any organized crime groups moving behind the scenes of the Empire making things happen?

Thanks,

H :0)


Your clan will have in a person from a clan that they deal with in these matters, who will look over your loot and then offer you a fair price for them. They will then turn around and find buyers for the loot, and sell it to them for whatever profit that they can make.

There is a sort of 'black market', but it's mostly to evade Imperial taxes - which is probably the leading sport in Tsolyanu. Keep in mind that anything and everything is available, for a price; what everybody wants to do is keep the Imperium from getting involved and getting their sticky fingers in the money pouch.

As for 'organized crime', keep in mind that a lot of the things we'd call crime these days is considered normal business activity in the Five Empires. (It's much worse in places like Haida Pakalla.) About the only real 'crime' is treason and rebellion, which is sure to get the unwelcome attentions of the Imperium. (There are all sorts of people working behind the scenes, too. The OAL, for example.)

(Murder and violent crimes are a different story; the perpetrators usually are found dead in short order, after their subject's clan finds them.)

Now, 'income tax evasion', 'not paying customs dues', and similar things are what really constitutes the 'black market', just as it did in Colonial America. The Founding Fathers were annoyed with the British East India Company for importing tea and selling it for less then they could make by smuggling it into the colonies. So, in the best 'organized crime' style, they hired dear old Harchar and his "honest seafaring merchants" to dress up in costume and toss the goods into the drink.

There is very little traffic in 'ordinary hot goods'; thieves certainly do exist, but there aren't any 'Thieves' Guilds' in the Five Empires. (Some would say that they are called 'tax collectors', however.) If, say, you wanted something stolen, you'd contact the clan that handles such things; same thing with smuggling. If you want something done - as the Russians say, "on the left" - then you contact the clans that handles such things in your town. The best place to start looking for them is always the Market Police or Customs and Excise officers. They'll put you in touch with who you need to speak to - for a small fee, of course. The smuggler clan will then make sure that they get a donation to their old age, pension, and retirement funds, and everybody is happy.

Avanthar might get cranky, but, well, that's the way things work. As an Imperial Governor, I had several occasions where I made sure to look the other way, as it was the only way to keep the Imperium running. As long as people kept it down to the customary levels, and nobody got hurt or any riots or rebellions got started, things were fine. When people got stupid, that's when I'd have to pay them a little visit. My little galley's crew are all 'retired' smugglers, for example, and I make sure to 'suggest' to the Customs and Excise officers that they really don't need to look in the luggage bins. (Rubs thumb and forefinger together, in the ancient gesture.)

What? Arrest Harchar and his merry crew? Are you nuts? Think of all that paperwork!!!  :)

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 18, 2015, 07:45:56 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;869453
Okay, moving right along...I've just returned from the underworld with some treasures from the Latter Days. I bring my finds to my temple to see what I have.


Now it so happens that these items are notable and previously owned.
How do I avoid the living owners from find out until after I've sold them OR get them to give me a worthwhile reward for "returning" them?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 18, 2015, 07:46:35 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;869463
Your clan will have in a person from a clan that they deal with in these matters, who will look over your loot and then offer you a fair price for them. They will then turn around and find buyers for the loot, and sell it to them for whatever profit that they can make.

There is a sort of 'black market', but it's mostly to evade Imperial taxes - which is probably the leading sport in Tsolyanu. Keep in mind that anything and everything is available, for a price; what everybody wants to do is keep the Imperium from getting involved and getting their sticky fingers in the money pouch.

As for 'organized crime', keep in mind that a lot of the things we'd call crime these days is considered normal business activity in the Five Empires. (It's much worse in places like Haida Pakalla.) About the only real 'crime' is treason and rebellion, which is sure to get the unwelcome attentions of the Imperium. (There are all sorts of people working behind the scenes, too. The OAL, for example.)

(Murder and violent crimes are a different story; the perpetrators usually are found dead in short order, after their subject's clan finds them.)

Now, 'income tax evasion', 'not paying customs dues', and similar things are what really constitutes the 'black market', just as it did in Colonial America. The Founding Fathers were annoyed with the British East India Company for importing tea and selling it for less then they could make by smuggling it into the colonies. So, in the best 'organized crime' style, they hired dear old Harchar and his "honest seafaring merchants" to dress up in costume and toss the goods into the drink.

There is very little traffic in 'ordinary hot goods'; thieves certainly do exist, but there aren't any 'Thieves' Guilds' in the Five Empires. (Some would say that they are called 'tax collectors', however.) If, say, you wanted something stolen, you'd contact the clan that handles such things; same thing with smuggling. If you want something done - as the Russians say, "on the left" - then you contact the clans that handles such things in your town. The best place to start looking for them is always the Market Police or Customs and Excise officers. They'll put you in touch with who you need to speak to - for a small fee, of course. The smuggler clan will then make sure that they get a donation to their old age, pension, and retirement funds, and everybody is happy.

Avanthar might get cranky, but, well, that's the way things work. As an Imperial Governor, I had several occasions where I made sure to look the other way, as it was the only way to keep the Imperium running. As long as people kept it down to the customary levels, and nobody got hurt or any riots or rebellions got started, things were fine. When people got stupid, that's when I'd have to pay them a little visit. My little galley's crew are all 'retired' smugglers, for example, and I make sure to 'suggest' to the Customs and Excise officers that they really don't need to look in the luggage bins. (Rubs thumb and forefinger together, in the ancient gesture.)

What? Arrest Harchar and his merry crew? Are you nuts? Think of all that paperwork!!!  :)

Does this help?


Yes. It helps. If you could expand on which clans historically deal in these kinds of matters...Thanks.

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 18, 2015, 08:06:28 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;869500
Now it so happens that these items are notable and previously owned.
How do I avoid the living owners from find out until after I've sold them OR get them to give me a worthwhile reward for "returning" them?
=

I guess you would have to be discreet...depending on the power you weild. You make them "an offer they can't refuse"(understand your limits, Vitu hiKorleone understands). "Finders fees" for getting items to the rightful owners. Magic can make people forget too. Sounds like a great opportunity to get creative. Adventures galore!!!

And of course avoid "Imperial entanglements"... ;0)

H :0)

PS Keep yourself off the High Road, and the Blood Money to a minimum...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 18, 2015, 01:52:38 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;869500
Now it so happens that these items are notable and previously owned.
How do I avoid the living owners from find out until after I've sold them OR get them to give me a worthwhile reward for "returning" them?
=


Oh! Great question! There's actual legal precedent on this, from a court case we once heard from Dave Morris.

First off, unless the owners saw you lift the stuff, they aren't going to know. There is no 'mass media' or 'social media', so unless you tell them it's going to be kept quiet in your clan house. Unless somebody bribes somebody, but you can watch out for that. Unless you have announcements made in the public squares, it's highly unlikely anybody will ever find out. Especially if you don't tell any one.

The Engsvanyali legal precedent, "The Doctrine of the Present Hand", is very clear on this; if you got it in the Underworld, then it's yours. "Finders' Keepers, Losers' Weepers", as a big-name Tsolyani scholar (Firu ba Yeker, actually) once said to me. (Above ground, where the Great Concordat holds sway, it's theft, and you may be in for a lot of trouble. Anyway...) The custom, if you happen to know the owner, is to have your clan make an approach to the owner's clan. "Say, my nephew happened to be in the Underworld, and he thinks he's found something belonging to your cousin."

Negotiations ensue. You'll get a fair price, a 'finders' fee', and expenses. They will get their stuff back, and a severe talking to about losing valuable clan property. If they decline to buy their stuff back, then you are at liberty to sell the items on the open market - they had their chance, and passed it up.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 18, 2015, 01:54:41 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;869501
Yes. It helps. If you could expand on which clans historically deal in these kinds of matters...Thanks.

H :0)


Right. I'll have to look this up - I usually don't deal with them, myself. It varies from city to city, too. Both the Sourcebook and the Butrus Gazetteer have these lists, too. Back as soon as I can. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 18, 2015, 01:55:57 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;869503
I guess you would have to be discreet...depending on the power you weild. You make them "an offer they can't refuse"(understand your limits, Vitu hiKorleone understands). "Finders fees" for getting items to the rightful owners. Magic can make people forget too. Sounds like a great opportunity to get creative. Adventures galore!!!

And of course avoid "Imperial entanglements"... ;0)

H :0)

PS Keep yourself off the High Road, and the Blood Money to a minimum...


Precisely! That's the spirit! See - you too can 'get' Tekumel! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on December 18, 2015, 03:42:56 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;869544
"Finders' Keepers, Losers' Weepers", as a big-name Tsolyani scholar (Firu ba Yeker, actually) once said to me.
So much more straightforward than "uti possidetis" or even "possession is nine-tenths of the law." ;) Firu ba Yeker sounds like an anagram. I can get "Barker" out of it, but I can't figure out how to decipher "Fiu Ye".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 18, 2015, 07:32:42 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;869380
Right - let me try this in sections... :)

1. Pressure - The problem is that, over the years, I've been the lynchpin of getting Tekumel out to the world. These factions have the idea that if only they - and they alone - can get control of me, I'll continue to produce for them and they can have all the money and prestige - but without the work.
And yes, once EPT was published, this became nonsense. In the summer of 1975, to be exact.

Yeah, that's why it's kinda surprising me. But then I remember all the RPG fans that know more all kinds of trivia about Star Wars or some other movies, and I think I see their logic, too.

Quote
2. 'Lazy GMing' - Nope, I don't work this out during the game. I do everything in advance, and have it all on note cards. I keep the note cards handy, but with my memory I usually don't need them.

Well, I think Bren is like you. I'm lazy:).

Quote
3. Railroading - this is based on an assumption; this came from a local 'indie' gamer, who's of the opinion that any game that predates the OSR has got to be 'railroady' and without 'full player agency'.

And I'd like to point out that indie gamers are exactly as likely as anyone to be using recreational drugs. So my theory still stands until disproven;).

Quote
I've noticed that a lot of OSR and indie people have a lot of assumptions about the way I game, and won't game with me based on those assumptions. And, then, as you might expect, if they actually do watch a game I run, then they want to play...

That happens a lot, I'm sure.

Quote
And your points about OD&D being almost a story game are right on. At least, that's the way I saw it being played.

Nothing wrong with that in my book. It just contributes to making me mildly amused when I hear a D&D player criticising "those awful story games that aren't real RPGs":D!

Quote
4. Information release - Yep. I said the same thing, many times over the years, and got blown off. Which is why we are where we are today.

Yeah...people that would blow that off might want to look in the experience of, I don't know, Tribe 8. Which had a great metaplot, by all accounts...

Quote
5. Breakfast - I expected nothing, got nothing, and now we're done with them. And they still can't figure out why.

Understood, and no more needs be said.

Quote
6. Usefullness - I try; keep asking questions!

I am asking, whenever I reach a moment I have to ask. Too bad my Tekumel group didn't have time for RPGs during the holidays.

Quote
7. Outreach - Well, I was told that I needed to move everything to the local game shop for the game, to suit their schedule. I pointed out that this was going to be a pretty big effort, and they looked at me blankly. So, no Braunstein for them.

Oh, not just a specific time and location, but the specific time and location they specified?
Yeah, that's unreasonable to ask, unless they were paying you.

Quote
8. Game design - Yeah, I thought so to, but this 'flowchart' approach is the way this person does all of his games. It's very ponderous, and take forever to get anywhere on the flowchart.

You talking about Ron Edwards? Well, he makes some nice games (and some that seem fun, though I have no desire to play them). If it works for him, and gives results, I would assume he has a working idea that he cannot communicate to me.
Or maybe it's just an idea I disagree with, but it still works for him, and I can use the end results - his games - though maybe I'm using them in ways he didn't anticipate. No way to tell until I see the guy in person and play a game with him - which is unlikely to happen.

Quote
9. FATE - Basic FATE, or whatever the core rules are called. Huge rules book, I thought.

Fate Core is 308 pages, which is a medium rules book in my opinion. Longer than it needs to be, but the same rules can be explained in 3 pages...some fans did so in order to give handouts to their players. You just lose the rule examples and condense them a whole lot, which might lead to misunderstanding, but it's not like you need the book for reference
Now, something like Pathfinder is triple that, and I suspect it can stop a bullet. What's worse is, any attempt to condense it would require the book for reference. That's huge for me as well.

Quote
10. Buying slaves / owning slaves - You are right; owning slaves is considered to be a display of wealth and status. It's the act of buying of the slaves that's considered sordid and less then noble. People who buy lots of slaves are often considered 'new rich' and not all that classy; it's sort of assumed that a really proper clan has had slaves for generations, and so their slaves are better then some new ones bought by a newly rich person. So,  having slaves is a good thing, while buying them is a bad thing. (Maybe the stork brings them, or something.) I think it has a lot to do with the very low social status of the slavers, more then anything else.

I guess you don't want to associate with people that would treat you as cattle if you could avoid it. Sounds reasonable.
Also, sounds like if you can buy slaves secretly, it's all good.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;869383
Like many societies on this world, social rules in Tsolyanu aren't always logical!

Wine, slaves, and money are obviously best when they've mellowed in the family vaults for a few generations.

I'd contend that it's logical for rich people to avoid those that got rich this generation or the previous!
They would know how their ancestors got rich, and what their kids were like, and might not be looking forward to drinking with that kind of people:D!

Quote from: Bren;869556
So much more straightforward than "uti possidetis" or even "possession is nine-tenths of the law." ;) Firu ba Yeker sounds like an anagram. I can get "Barker" out of it, but I can't figure out how to decipher "Fiu Ye".

I'd guess it's just Phil, written as "Fil", Barker;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: yosemitemike on December 18, 2015, 08:27:30 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;869069
Gotcha. I never really understood GNS theory; I thought it felt like 'over-thinking' the subject.


Part of the problem is that most of what is said about the subject is just hot air.  It's pompous gasbags gassing at one another on the internet to show everyone how terribly clever they and how terribly deep their deep thinking is.  It's just a lot of ego stroking and wankery.

Also, It's very jargon heavy but none of the jargon actually means anything.  I remember a thread at rpg.net that went on and on for page after page with people arguing about what makes a game a narrative game.  It went nowhere because they all used the same jargon but no two of them neat the same thing by it.    

In the end, it just doesn't have much to do with how most successful games are written or what most people actually do at the tabletop.  They just have very little to do with what most of the people in the hobby are doing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 19, 2015, 02:48:14 AM
Quote from: Bren;869556
So much more straightforward than "uti possidetis" or even "possession is nine-tenths of the law." ;) Firu ba Yeker sounds like an anagram. I can get "Barker" out of it, but I can't figure out how to decipher "Fiu Ye".


:)

You actually have it - 'phil' / 'firu' - 'barker' / 'ba' 'yeker'.

It's one of Phil's very first 'in-jokes' for Tekumel; it's on some of the 1950s artwork that latter appeared in EPT.  Phil loved literary and linguistic jokes, and this is one of them; it's his original PC, the retired scribe from the Temple of Sarku: Firu ba Yeker, of the Clan of the Uttermost Secret. No matter where we'd go on Tekumel, there would be Firu, sitting in the market place, telling stories to the passer-by for a few coppers. He always knew all the local gossip and scandals, and his 'tips' provided us with all sorts of adventures and sheer fun.

Say it aloud, sort of fast, and you'll do Phil a great honor - he was an unreconstructed Ancient Egyptian, and to speak the name of the dead is to make then live again...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 19, 2015, 02:54:10 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;869597
Yeah, that's why it's kinda surprising me. But then I remember all the RPG fans that know more all kinds of trivia about Star Wars or some other movies, and I think I see their logic, too.


Well, I think Bren is like you. I'm lazy:).


And I'd like to point out that indie gamers are exactly as likely as anyone to be using recreational drugs. So my theory still stands until disproven;).


That happens a lot, I'm sure.


Nothing wrong with that in my book. It just contributes to making me mildly amused when I hear a D&D player criticising "those awful story games that aren't real RPGs":D!


Yeah...people that would blow that off might want to look in the experience of, I don't know, Tribe 8. Which had a great metaplot, by all accounts...


Understood, and no more needs be said.


I am asking, whenever I reach a moment I have to ask. Too bad my Tekumel group didn't have time for RPGs during the holidays.


Oh, not just a specific time and location, but the specific time and location they specified?
Yeah, that's unreasonable to ask, unless they were paying you.


You talking about Ron Edwards? Well, he makes some nice games (and some that seem fun, though I have no desire to play them). If it works for him, and gives results, I would assume he has a working idea that he cannot communicate to me.
Or maybe it's just an idea I disagree with, but it still works for him, and I can use the end results - his games - though maybe I'm using them in ways he didn't anticipate. No way to tell until I see the guy in person and play a game with him - which is unlikely to happen.


Fate Core is 308 pages, which is a medium rules book in my opinion. Longer than it needs to be, but the same rules can be explained in 3 pages...some fans did so in order to give handouts to their players. You just lose the rule examples and condense them a whole lot, which might lead to misunderstanding, but it's not like you need the book for reference
Now, something like Pathfinder is triple that, and I suspect it can stop a bullet. What's worse is, any attempt to condense it would require the book for reference. That's huge for me as well.


I guess you don't want to associate with people that would treat you as cattle if you could avoid it. Sounds reasonable.
Also, sounds like if you can buy slaves secretly, it's all good.


I'd contend that it's logical for rich people to avoid those that got rich this generation or the previous!
They would know how their ancestors got rich, and what their kids were like, and might not be looking forward to drinking with that kind of people:D!


I'd guess it's just Phil, written as "Fil", Barker;).


You are a constant source of illumination, as always. I'll have that reply to your e-mail for you this weekend - life has finally slowed down, hereabouts.

You're making sense on all fronts, here, and I'm really enjoying this thread as a result. Thank you!!! :)

(And yes, the group that wanted me to do a Braunstien for them insisted that I had to do it in their specific date and time, and no, they weren't paying me. Nor were they willing to help load and unload all the stuff, either. Sigh.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 19, 2015, 02:56:01 AM
Quote from: yosemitemike;869603
Part of the problem is that most of what is said about the subject is just hot air.  It's pompous gasbags gassing at one another on the internet to show everyone how terribly clever they and how terribly deep their deep thinking is.  It's just a lot of ego stroking and wankery.

Also, It's very jargon heavy but none of the jargon actually means anything.  I remember a thread at rpg.net that went on and on for page after page with people arguing about what makes a game a narrative game.  It went nowhere because they all used the same jargon but no two of them neat the same thing by it.    

In the end, it just doesn't have much to do with how most successful games are written or what most people actually do at the tabletop.  They just have very little to do with what most of the people in the hobby are doing.


Gotcha; very informative, as I came into the 'mainstream' of gaming after all this happened. I'd been sitting in my basement, fooling around with dice and lead, and came up for air to find all this stuff.

There are days when I think I shoulda stayed in the cellar... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: yosemitemike on December 19, 2015, 03:09:04 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;869640
(And yes, the group that wanted me to do a Braunstien for them insisted that I had to do it in their specific date and time, and no, they weren't paying me. Nor were they willing to help load and unload all the stuff, either. Sigh.)

I have met people like this.  Their sense of entitlement always astonishes me.  They always think that you are the one being unreasonable if you don't cater entirely to them and what they want as well.  Luckily, I don't have any players like that these days.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;869641
There are days when I think I shoulda stayed in the cellar... :)

This is just internet stuff.  Don't take it too seriously.  I have never heard anyone utter the terms gamist, narrativist or simulationist in real life.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 19, 2015, 04:11:38 AM
Quote from: yosemitemike;869642
I have met people like this.  Their sense of entitlement always astonishes me.  They always think that you are the one being unreasonable if you don't cater entirely to them and what they want as well.  Luckily, I don't have any players like that these days.

This is just internet stuff.  Don't take it too seriously.  I have never heard anyone utter the terms gamist, narrativist or simulationist in real life.


Ditto. I may be playing a lot less games, these days, but they are a much more fun time... :)

Understood. I'm just baffled when people throw them at me.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: yosemitemike on December 19, 2015, 04:58:37 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;869649
Ditto. I may be playing a lot less games, these days, but they are a much more fun time... :)


I keep adding more.  I am running four different campaigns now and people want me to add a fifth.  It looks pretty cool and I wouldn't mind but I have no idea when I would even be able to fit it in.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 19, 2015, 12:18:12 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;869503
I guess you would have to be discreet...depending on the power you weild. You make them "an offer they can't refuse"(understand your limits, Vitu hiKorleone understands). "Finders fees" for getting items to the rightful owners. Magic can make people forget too. Sounds like a great opportunity to get creative. Adventures galore!!!

And of course avoid "Imperial entanglements"... ;0)

H :0)

PS Keep yourself off the High Road, and the Blood Money to a minimum...


Right.  Don't be like Peter Venckman in Ghostbusters, where he walks into the hotel and says "Hey, anybody see a ghost?"

You would visit the marketplaces, and you would find a "dealer in antiquities."  You would compliment his/her merchandise, the selection, the seller's obvious good taste, etc.  After a few minutes the conversation would "just happen" to get to the point where you mention that you might know someone who has found a few trinkets, or the seller would mention they're always eager to "admire other collections."

You get the idea.  In this sort of bargaining, USA-style "Here's what I'm selling, what will you pay" forthrightness is not done.  It's missing out on the fun; it's not playing the game.

And as Lord Downey said to Mister Teatime, "It...lacked elegance."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 19, 2015, 12:19:30 PM
Quote from: Bren;869400
Why oaky tasting slaves and money are best must be another one of those illogical things.


The truly cultured are able to appreciate such nuances. :p
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 19, 2015, 12:25:32 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;869640

(And yes, the group that wanted me to do a Braunstien for them insisted that I had to do it in their specific date and time, and no, they weren't paying me. Nor were they willing to help load and unload all the stuff, either. Sigh.)


Sweet Avanthe's tits, at least the Akbar & Jeff Traveling Tekumel Show sold a bit of product and got to hang around in the bar after with such characters as Butch Leeper!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 19, 2015, 12:27:13 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;869641
Gotcha; very informative, as I came into the 'mainstream' of gaming after all this happened. I'd been sitting in my basement, fooling around with dice and lead, and came up for air to find all this stuff.

There are days when I think I shoulda stayed in the cellar... :)


I know the feeling.  I pretty much dropped out of gaming until the early 21st Century, and still wonder what the hell happened while I was napping.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 19, 2015, 07:35:26 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;869640
You are a constant source of illumination, as always. I'll have that reply to your e-mail for you this weekend - life has finally slowed down, hereabouts.

You're making sense on all fronts, here, and I'm really enjoying this thread as a result. Thank you!!! :)

Glad I might be helping:). I'm trying to be a positive influence. (It's likely that I'm not always successful, though).

Quote
(And yes, the group that wanted me to do a Braunstien for them insisted that I had to do it in their specific date and time, and no, they weren't paying me. Nor were they willing to help load and unload all the stuff, either. Sigh.)

That just went to "beyond the pale". Ah well, they missed on a Braunstein;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;869649
Ditto. I may be playing a lot less games, these days, but they are a much more fun time... :)

Understood. I'm just baffled when people throw them at me.

Eh, you're mostly Simulationist, from what I can tell, but have healthy doses of influence from the other styles as well:D.
Really, it doesn't matter. The most help I have got out of the whole theory was in screening players that wouldn't enjoy my style and picking the right game for whatever I'm planning.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;869679
Right.  Don't be like Peter Venckman in Ghostbusters, where he walks into the hotel and says "Hey, anybody see a ghost?"

You would visit the marketplaces, and you would find a "dealer in antiquities."  You would compliment his/her merchandise, the selection, the seller's obvious good taste, etc.  After a few minutes the conversation would "just happen" to get to the point where you mention that you might know someone who has found a few trinkets, or the seller would mention they're always eager to "admire other collections."

You get the idea.  In this sort of bargaining, USA-style "Here's what I'm selling, what will you pay" forthrightness is not done.  It's missing out on the fun; it's not playing the game.

And as Lord Downey said to Mister Teatime, "It...lacked elegance."

Just so you know, I'm going to read that to one of my players;).
Not that she needs it so much, but I find reminders helpful.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;869683
I know the feeling.  I pretty much dropped out of gaming until the early 21st Century, and still wonder what the hell happened while I was napping.

Same as everywhere. People tried thinking about stuff they were doing. Some reached wrong conclusions, others reached the right ones...
You can guess which are which by trying one of their games with a decent GM and seeing whether you enjoy playing it;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 19, 2015, 09:23:30 PM
Quote from: yosemitemike;869652
I keep adding more.  I am running four different campaigns now and people want me to add a fifth.  It looks pretty cool and I wouldn't mind but I have no idea when I would even be able to fit it in.


Very, very cool - congrats!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 19, 2015, 09:24:42 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;869679
Right.  Don't be like Peter Venckman in Ghostbusters, where he walks into the hotel and says "Hey, anybody see a ghost?"

You would visit the marketplaces, and you would find a "dealer in antiquities."  You would compliment his/her merchandise, the selection, the seller's obvious good taste, etc.  After a few minutes the conversation would "just happen" to get to the point where you mention that you might know someone who has found a few trinkets, or the seller would mention they're always eager to "admire other collections."

You get the idea.  In this sort of bargaining, USA-style "Here's what I'm selling, what will you pay" forthrightness is not done.  It's missing out on the fun; it's not playing the game.

And as Lord Downey said to Mister Teatime, "It...lacked elegance."


Very true! 'Shopping trips' with Phil were some of our very best sessions... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 19, 2015, 09:35:23 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;869682
Sweet Avanthe's tits, at least the Akbar & Jeff Traveling Tekumel Show sold a bit of product and got to hang around in the bar after with such characters as Butch Leeper!


Yep, at least back then we had some fun after the heavy lifting.

I ran my last big Braunstein at FFG's original Event Center back in 2013, and it was a nightmare. I wanted to load Friday for a Saturday game, and then unload Sunday - this was the 'big table' game with all the swamps and Hlutrgu, and is on my YouTube channel. A friend from Milwaukee came for the fun, and he was the one who helped me load out and load in, as helped with everything at FFG. The downside was that he's had triple bypass surgery; I have this hole in the back of my head. And, it was just the two of us doing all the heavy lifting. Eldest Daughter came over and helped by holding the door - it was all she could do, as she was having to heft the new First Grandson on her hip the whole time. (The baby was more help then a lot of people; he thinks I'm funnier then all hell, and laughs his little head off any time I have into view. That's worth it.)

I would up exhausted, and managed to run the game despite being totally wiped out. And, of course, all of the able-bodied people, who'd offered to help out, just weren't there for the effort.

Haven't run such a game since, which is too bad; the new FFG Event Center is just perfect for games like the ones I run - and they have a very nice cafe on-site, too. They invited me to run games there any time, like for the Dave Arneson Memorial Games I used to do, but I don't think I'd get any help.

Sigh. So it goes, I guess.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 19, 2015, 09:36:15 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;869683
I know the feeling.  I pretty much dropped out of gaming until the early 21st Century, and still wonder what the hell happened while I was napping.


Yep. I'm still sitting here with my mouth hanging open at some of the goings-on.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 19, 2015, 09:42:33 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;869738
Glad I might be helping:). I'm trying to be a positive influence. (It's likely that I'm not always successful, though).

That just went to "beyond the pale". Ah well, they missed on a Braunstein;).

Eh, you're mostly Simulationist, from what I can tell, but have healthy doses of influence from the other styles as well:D..


Well, it does help me, and it's very kind of you to take the time to explain things to this ancient duffer. :)

See my comment to Gronan. While yes, I do own a nice little cargo van with 64 cubic feet worth of internal space, the big issue is hauling stuff in and out of the house and the venue. (Although space can get tight; I had to put my suit of armor in the passenger seat to get it down to gary Con this past March, which got me a lot of strange looks from passer-by.) It's moving the miniatures - they are fragile, heavy, and take up lots of space. The scenery and terrain, not so much; all that stuff lives out in the garden shed, in plastic tubs, and it very easy and fast to load and unload. (Carts are your friends.) People don't realize the amount of sheer hard work and time that big games entail, I think, and so I don't get any help 'cause everybody's busy.

Hmmm. I think you're right. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 19, 2015, 11:26:55 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;869766
Yep, at least back then we had some fun after the heavy lifting.

I ran my last big Braunstein at FFG's original Event Center back in 2013, and it was a nightmare. I wanted to load Friday for a Saturday game, and then unload Sunday - this was the 'big table' game with all the swamps and Hlutrgu, and is on my YouTube channel. A friend from Milwaukee came for the fun, and he was the one who helped me load out and load in, as helped with everything at FFG. The downside was that he's had triple bypass surgery; I have this hole in the back of my head. And, it was just the two of us doing all the heavy lifting. Eldest Daughter came over and helped by holding the door - it was all she could do, as she was having to heft the new First Grandson on her hip the whole time. (The baby was more help then a lot of people; he thinks I'm funnier then all hell, and laughs his little head off any time I have into view. That's worth it.)

I would up exhausted, and managed to run the game despite being totally wiped out. And, of course, all of the able-bodied people, who'd offered to help out, just weren't there for the effort.

Haven't run such a game since, which is too bad; the new FFG Event Center is just perfect for games like the ones I run - and they have a very nice cafe on-site, too. They invited me to run games there any time, like for the Dave Arneson Memorial Games I used to do, but I don't think I'd get any help.

Sigh. So it goes, I guess.


In your case, "I must have a hole in my head" is more literally true than for most of us...  :D

(damn, I'm a smartass)

Also... what's FFG?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 19, 2015, 11:29:16 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;869770
Well, it does help me, and it's very kind of you to take the time to explain things to this ancient duffer. :)

See my comment to Gronan. While yes, I do own a nice little cargo van with 64 cubic feet worth of internal space, the big issue is hauling stuff in and out of the house and the venue. (Although space can get tight; I had to put my suit of armor in the passenger seat to get it down to gary Con this past March, which got me a lot of strange looks from passer-by.) It's moving the miniatures - they are fragile, heavy, and take up lots of space. The scenery and terrain, not so much; all that stuff lives out in the garden shed, in plastic tubs, and it very easy and fast to load and unload. (Carts are your friends.) People don't realize the amount of sheer hard work and time that big games entail, I think, and so I don't get any help 'cause everybody's busy.

Hmmm. I think you're right. :)


Gods, yes.  The sheer amount of backbreaking labor that we expended sometimes makes me want to weep.

It's one of the reasons I bought a few baubles and trinkets from the dealers in keevas and trilium at last GaryCon; I know what it's like to haul all that crap in and desperately pray I won't have to haul it out again come Sunday.  As I've said before, by Gen Con Sunday we were ready to pile it up in a heap and torch it as an offering to the Lord of Red Devistation.  And I'm a Karakan worshiper!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 19, 2015, 11:37:58 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;869790
In your case, "I must have a hole in my head" is more literally true than for most of us...  :D

(damn, I'm a smartass)

Also... what's FFG?

Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk! :)

The damn scar still itches, and in cold weather it contracts, pulling the skin tight over my skull and making me look like one of those old 'Martian Eye Popper' toys. I have to wear a special hat that makes me look like something out of "Sgt. Preston of the Yukon". And I get tired out pretty easliy; no stamina, any more.

The FFG Event Center is Fantasy Flight Games' huge game facility in Rosedale. See here:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/more/fantasy-flight-games-center/ (https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/more/fantasy-flight-games-center/)

The place has a roughly 100; x 100' game room, very nicely appointed, with table and chairs; there's a retail outlet attached as well as a cafe that serves food and drink - literally; they have good beers on tap. There's also a second 100' x 100' room, which is a nicely carpeted aircraft hangar of a space, and that's where they run special events and tournaments. It's a really great facility, with great staffing, and I have a standing invitation to come and run games there.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 19, 2015, 11:44:06 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;869795
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk! :)

The damn scar still itches, and in cold weather it contracts, pulling the skin tight over my skull and making me look like one of those old 'Martian Eye Popper' toys. I have to wear a special hat that makes me look like something out of "Sgt. Preston of the Yukon". And I get tired out pretty easliy; no stamina, any more.

The FFG Event Center is Fantasy Flight Games' huge game facility in Rosedale. See here:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/more/fantasy-flight-games-center/ (https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/more/fantasy-flight-games-center/)

The place has a roughly 100; x 100' game room, very nicely appointed, with table and chairs; there's a retail outlet attached as well as a cafe that serves food and drink - literally; they have good beers on tap. There's also a second 100' x 100' room, which is a nicely carpeted aircraft hangar of a space, and that's where they run special events and tournaments. It's a really great facility, with great staffing, and I have a standing invitation to come and run games there.


Holy.... :eek:

Where the hell did the money for THAT come from?  I may have to reevaluate my aphorism that there is no money in gaming!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: yosemitemike on December 19, 2015, 11:44:48 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;869770
See my comment to Gronan. While yes, I do own a nice little cargo van with 64 cubic feet worth of internal space, the big issue is hauling stuff in and out of the house and the venue. (Although space can get tight; I had to put my suit of armor in the passenger seat to get it down to gary Con this past March, which got me a lot of strange looks from passer-by.) It's moving the miniatures - they are fragile, heavy, and take up lots of space. The scenery and terrain, not so much; all that stuff lives out in the garden shed, in plastic tubs, and it very easy and fast to load and unload. (Carts are your friends.) People don't realize the amount of sheer hard work and time that big games entail, I think, and so I don't get any help 'cause everybody's busy.

Wow.  My players help me haul stuff in and out and everything I bring fits in the back seat of my not very big pickup with room to spare.  All I bring is

A tacklebox with pawns.  Sometimes.
My laptop
My backpack with pens and dice and such
Some poster maps.  Sometimes
A small stack of books.
My small collection of terrain.  Sometimes.  A 5 year old could carry this without straining a bit.

and my players help me carry stuff.  You have all that stuff and no one offers to help you carry it?  Must be a different culture where you are.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;869796
Holy.... :eek:

Where the hell did the money for THAT come from?  I may have to reevaluate my aphorism that there is no money in gaming!

FFG is mostly a board game company.  There's a lot more money in that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 19, 2015, 11:47:38 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;869791
Gods, yes.  The sheer amount of backbreaking labor that we expended sometimes makes me want to weep.

It's one of the reasons I bought a few baubles and trinkets from the dealers in keevas and trilium at last GaryCon; I know what it's like to haul all that crap in and desperately pray I won't have to haul it out again come Sunday.  As I've said before, by Gen Con Sunday we were ready to pile it up in a heap and torch it as an offering to the Lord of Red Devistation.  And I'm a Karakan worshiper!


Agreed. And same here; I got a very nice Ral Partha 'Sea Elf with Pike' all painted up from one of the dealers, as a memento and in memory of Phil.

And all that work we put in; we did have fun doing it all at the time, but these days it just doesn't seem worth the effort given the issues that some people seem to have. Driving down to Lake Geneva this past March wasn't too bad, but getting my teeth kicked down my throat afterwards made the trip seem like a waste of time. Ah, well; saves me $800 or so and a lot of effort.

These days, the 'smaller' game table in the game room - 4' x 4' just seems small, given what we used to do back in Ye Olden Dayes - lets me play nice skirmish games that move along right smartly. If I feel the need for a 'big table' game - 60" x 90", or the biggest at 60" x 120" - then I can set up the lawn tent in the back yard and run what I want when I want. Sure, 'big table miniatures' are limited to the spring and summer, but I can still do RPG any time in the warmth.

And, I have to admit, these days I'm a lot more focussed on my writing and my painting. Small games seem to suit my outlook,and still give me lots of room for fun - and photo opportunities!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 19, 2015, 11:50:54 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;869796
Holy.... :eek:

Where the hell did the money for THAT come from?  I may have to reevaluate my aphorism that there is no money in gaming!


FFG is a 'mass-market game company'. They sell stuff on the order of WotC and Piazo, and have a huge budget to play with. The Event Center is 'marketing', as it's like having a game convention in-house every weekend. The place is usually packed, and both the local game con and FLGSs are more then a little worried, as FFG promotes the place as a 'destination' venue. And it seems to be working just fine, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 19, 2015, 11:56:15 PM
Quote from: yosemitemike;869797
Wow.  My players help me haul stuff in and out and everything I bring fits in the back seat of my not very big pickup with room to spare.  All I bring is

A tacklebox with pawns.  Sometimes.
My laptop
My backpack with pens and dice and such
Some poster maps.  Sometimes
A small stack of books.
My small collection of terrain.  Sometimes.  A 5 year old could carry this without straining a bit.

and my players help me carry stuff.  You have all that stuff and no one offers to help you carry it?  Must be a different culture where you are.


Nope; my friend from Milwaukee commented on this. Now, for RPGs, the baggage is a lot less, but for 'big table' miniatures I can fill the van. See also the photos of games on my Photobucket page.

I don't know if it's culture, or just being taken from granted. Phil's letter files are full of his annoyance of being treated as "Phil TV" by his players in the middle to late 1990s, where they assumed that he was there to entertain them. I get all sorts of people making all sorts of noises about "Yes! Yes! I'll help!" and then they don't show up at all or show up very late. It feels very very much like a 'consumer society', rather then a 'producer society'.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 20, 2015, 12:08:14 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;869679
Right.  Don't be like Peter Venckman in Ghostbusters, where he walks into the hotel and says "Hey, anybody see a ghost?"

You would visit the marketplaces, and you would find a "dealer in antiquities."  You would compliment his/her merchandise, the selection, the seller's obvious good taste, etc.  After a few minutes the conversation would "just happen" to get to the point where you mention that you might know someone who has found a few trinkets, or the seller would mention they're always eager to "admire other collections."

You get the idea.  In this sort of bargaining, USA-style "Here's what I'm selling, what will you pay" forthrightness is not done.  It's missing out on the fun; it's not playing the game.

And as Lord Downey said to Mister Teatime, "It...lacked elegance."


I'm learning...On Tekumel, more brains, less brawns(if you can). You live longer...On the road, the right amount of Kaigars can cause blindness and forgetfulness too!!!

I ain't afraid of no ghost(on Tekumel they only make noise and won't turn my hair white).

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 20, 2015, 12:16:23 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;869811
I'm learning...On Tekumel, more brains, less brawns(if you can). You live longer...On the road, the right amount of Kaigars can cause blindness and forgetfulness too!!!


And there you are - it took us several years to learn this lesson, and rather painfully at that. "Think it through!" was out mantra, and I think it helped that we were all pretty smart and clever as players. There is always something deadlier then you are, so thinking becomes a really useful survival skill.

Work within the culture; you get what you want, a lot less painfully. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 20, 2015, 12:20:48 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;869798
Agreed. And same here; I got a very nice Ral Partha 'Sea Elf with Pike' all painted up from one of the dealers, as a memento and in memory of Phil.

And all that work we put in; we did have fun doing it all at the time, but these days it just doesn't seem worth the effort given the issues that some people seem to have. Driving down to Lake Geneva this past March wasn't too bad, but getting my teeth kicked down my throat afterwards made the trip seem like a waste of time. Ah, well; saves me $800 or so and a lot of effort.


Yeah, GaryCon was great, and I feel bad for you for what happened after.

Not to mention, as Obi-Wan said, "I'm getting too old for this sort of thing."  I'm 60 years old, and frankly half a dozen trips from the Coffman parking garage to the third floor isn't as easy as it used to be.  Paul Stormberg brings the miniatures for the CHAINMAIL battles -- 40 mm Elastolins, no less! -- so all I have to do is show up.

For that matter I wouldn't mind buying some of Phil's medieval 25s, but the notion of getting them for the prices I'd be willing to pay seems pretty nugatory.  I want them to WARGAME with, not worship.  Or have sex with.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 20, 2015, 12:32:15 AM
For the most part it seems that when you played with The Professor, most of you played human characters. I seem to remember one player was a nonhuman? Is this for the most part the way it was(mostly humans)?

If so, why? Easier to be humans?

Thanks,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 20, 2015, 01:11:07 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;869820
Yeah, GaryCon was great, and I feel bad for you for what happened after.

Not to mention, as Obi-Wan said, "I'm getting too old for this sort of thing."  I'm 60 years old, and frankly half a dozen trips from the Coffman parking garage to the third floor isn't as easy as it used to be.  Paul Stormberg brings the miniatures for the CHAINMAIL battles -- 40 mm Elastolins, no less! -- so all I have to do is show up.

For that matter I wouldn't mind buying some of Phil's medieval 25s, but the notion of getting them for the prices I'd be willing to pay seems pretty nugatory.  I want them to WARGAME with, not worship.  Or have sex with.


Agreed. I just turned 59, and I feel the same way you do - and this is with the multitude of carts that I own.

Ask the Foundation for the miniatures; at one point, they were asking me who to give them to, as they didn't want to be responsible for them. They told me that they have no idea what to do with them, and they don't want to have to deal with the storage and conservation issues.

(I have some of your old figures, by the way, including Polidor.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 20, 2015, 01:21:43 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;869825
For the most part it seems that when you played with The Professor, most of you played human characters. I seem to remember one player was a nonhuman? Is this for the most part the way it was(mostly humans)?

If so, why? Easier to be humans?

Thanks,

H :0)


It takes good acting on the part of the 'non-human' player, if they're not going to do a bad job for the other players. In our group, Dave Romm played a Tinaliya - he was the only non-human player we ever had - and did a winderful job of it; he even drove Phil crazy, as he never, ever broke character in any of the game sessions. Brilliant role playing, and brilliant acting.

Aside from that example, we all played humans - but all of our PCs were 'old hands' from the late 1970s and early 1980s, so we started out at humans and stayed that way.

In my own RPG groups, I've had one player be a Pe Choi, and that's pretty much it. I try to discourage playing non-humans, as the 'mind set' is usually just too different for most gamers to try and deal with. There's a tremendous need to be able to actually 'role play', and this usually involves a lot of pre-game prep and coaching with the player. If they can act, and they'll put in the work, then they can certainly play a non-human.

In the one RPG group that came over here for a 'tour of the museum', the players are mostly non-human, because they apparently rolled for it on some sort of random table that their GM uses. Most of them didn't have a good idea of what they were, hence the visit to the basement.

I don't like the concept of 'you roll on these random tables' for gender, religion, species, and that kind of thing. What we used to do at Phil's was that Phil would have a talk with the player, discuss the world-setting, and then find something that the player would feel comfortable with. I think this was because we were such a long-term campaign - we thought in years, instead of weeks or even months for the duration of the campaign. (No 'one-shots' for us.) I still do it what way, as it worked for me and my players for years.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: yosemitemike on December 20, 2015, 01:54:50 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;869834

Ask the Foundation for the miniatures; at one point, they were asking me who to give them to, as they didn't want to be responsible for them. They told me that they have no idea what to do with them, and they don't want to have to deal with the storage and conservation issues.


So you took charge of this stuff and looked after it when no one else could be bothered but now that it's valuable people expect you to just hand it over?  If so, I wish I could be surprised but I'm not.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 20, 2015, 02:19:20 AM
Quote from: yosemitemike;869838
So you took charge of this stuff and looked after it when no one else could be bothered but now that it's valuable people expect you to just hand it over?  If so, I wish I could be surprised but I'm not.


Yeah, that's pretty much the story in a nutshell. It has been my experience that a lot of 'game collection stuff' is considered worthless and gets tossed in the trash until somebody makes an effort to save and preserve such bits of history. Then, it becomes 'collectable' and worth lots and lots of money. Stuff I published in the early 1980s for Tekumel, and which was declared 'worthless' by 'people in the know', is now going for absurd amounts on e-bay.

"Sure to increase in value now that Prof. Barker has passed away!" and "An excellent investment opportunity for the collector of RPG materials!". Etc.

One of the various factions surrounding Tekumel got the bright idea that it could simply seize my collections as "I was not fit to hold the materials" because I wasn't "a real collector" and because I had "inappropriate shelving" in my game room. Wasted the better part of a year and almost a grand in lawyer's fees to get rid of them.

The fundamental premise behind a lot of this is that my knowledge and expertise is worth lots of money, but only for "the right kind of people". Hearing this sort of thing from friends of over thirty years got really old, as did the orgy of looting that wen on while the Professor was in his last illness. I used to have to bring boxes of personal stuff - like Phil and Ambereen's wedding photographs, for mercy's sake! - to them after they'd been dropped off with me "for the collection".

It was insane, it's still insane, and I am very glad not to have to associate with any of these people any more.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: yosemitemike on December 20, 2015, 03:31:32 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;869842

The fundamental premise behind a lot of this is that my knowledge and expertise is worth lots of money, but only for "the right kind of people". Hearing this sort of thing from friends of over thirty years got really old, as did the orgy of looting that wen on while the Professor was in his last illness. I used to have to bring boxes of personal stuff - like Phil and Ambereen's wedding photographs, for mercy's sake! - to them after they'd been dropped off with me "for the collection".


Wait...hold on.  You had to return his wedding photos because someone pilfered them and then dumped them on you?  Am I reading that right?  Holy fucking shit.  That's might be the biggest dick move I have ever heard of.  It's such an absurdly dickish thing to do that I keep thinking I must have read it wrong.  That's bad enough to make me not want to buy the stuff on Drivethru RPG if any of these people are involved with it.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;869842

It was insane, it's still insane, and I am very glad not to have to associate with any of these people any more.


These people are completely nuts.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: nDervish on December 20, 2015, 05:18:47 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;869764
Very true! 'Shopping trips' with Phil were some of our very best sessions... :)


Can you impart any wisdom on that front?  I've often wanted to play out shopping trips, but invariably get stuck with groups of players who want to treat the rulebook like a Sears catalog and just buy everything at list price between game sessions.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;869835
In our group, Dave Romm played a Tinaliya


I think that just made my day.

Although I'm in Europe now, I grew up in the Twin Cities, played a couple times in Coffman around 1990, etc., so, as I've been reading this thread, I've always had the question in the back of my head, "Do I know anyone they gamed with?"  Now I know that the answer is at least a sort-of-yes.  :D  (I doubt the Baron remembers me, but he's a friend of several of my friends and we've talked briefly at cons a few times.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 20, 2015, 08:57:00 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;869835
It takes good acting on the part of the 'non-human' player, if they're not going to do a bad job for the other players. In our group, Dave Romm played a Tinaliya - he was the only non-human player we ever had - and did a winderful job of it; he even drove Phil crazy, as he never, ever broke character in any of the game sessions. Brilliant role playing, and brilliant acting.

Aside from that example, we all played humans - but all of our PCs were 'old hands' from the late 1970s and early 1980s, so we started out at humans and stayed that way.

In my own RPG groups, I've had one player be a Pe Choi, and that's pretty much it. I try to discourage playing non-humans, as the 'mind set' is usually just too different for most gamers to try and deal with. There's a tremendous need to be able to actually 'role play', and this usually involves a lot of pre-game prep and coaching with the player. If they can act, and they'll put in the work, then they can certainly play a non-human.

In the one RPG group that came over here for a 'tour of the museum', the players are mostly non-human, because they apparently rolled for it on some sort of random table that their GM uses. Most of them didn't have a good idea of what they were, hence the visit to the basement.

I don't like the concept of 'you roll on these random tables' for gender, religion, species, and that kind of thing. What we used to do at Phil's was that Phil would have a talk with the player, discuss the world-setting, and then find something that the player would feel comfortable with. I think this was because we were such a long-term campaign - we thought in years, instead of weeks or even months for the duration of the campaign. (No 'one-shots' for us.) I still do it what way, as it worked for me and my players for years.

If you may could you give us an idea about what was the "mind set" of the nonhuman races on Tekumel during your adventures. Some of the stereotypes I know. Such as the Tinaliya are very literal. Shen will eat your children and you if you don't pay attention(do not mess with their eggs). Ninínyal will sell you your own stuff for double the price. The Knobbed Ones are an uncuth lot that smell and would pee on your walls without thinking twice...etc.

I especially like the Pachi Lei. For whatever reason, I love The Professor's illustration of them. I do know they have a tendency to lose control now and again.

Any insight into nonhumans would be helpful. So when the time comes, I can give the kids a good idea of what they are like.

Thanks,

H :0)

PS Please let me know if these sorts of questions are too elementary(I have not read the S&G sourcebook cover to cover yet).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 21, 2015, 11:25:29 AM
Quote from: yosemitemike;869853
Wait...hold on.  You had to return his wedding photos because someone pilfered them and then dumped them on you?  Am I reading that right?  Holy fucking shit.  That's might be the biggest dick move I have ever heard of.  It's such an absurdly dickish thing to do that I keep thinking I must have read it wrong.  That's bad enough to make me not want to buy the stuff on Drivethru RPG if any of these people are involved with it.

These people are completely nuts.


Yes, you read that right. The back ground to this is that over the years, I have built up a collection of artifacts and costumes to show off and explain ('make accessible', as it were) Tekumel and what we used to do in our gaming groups. (There's also a miniatures collection and a documents collection, begun in the late 1970s.) I was following in Phil's footsteps; he loved to pull stuff out for games, like the night Arneson was describing how to navigate his ship - Phil pulled out an astrolabe, and challenged Dave to use it. It turned out Dave did know how to use the thing, and great fun was had by all.

So, in the summer of 2011, my gaming group moved all of Phil's Tekumel collection into storage for the Tekumel Foundation; as the unoffcial archivist for Tekumel, I did all the legwork forthe move, including providing boxes and the cargo van. There was, at that time, about 500 cubic feet worth of materials, and we did inventories and back-up copies of everything s a lot of the papers were in pretty bad shape from mold and mildew. I was then 'hired', for a dollar a year, by the Foundation to be the Official Authorized Approved archivist for Tekumel. I was offered quite a lot of Phil's stuff by his wife, both personal and gaming, and I made sure that the Foundation got all of the Tekumel stuff. (I go a few personal items, that had personal meaning for me; his old desk calendar, a betel-nut spittoon, a couple of cheap swords, things like that.)

There has always been a huge amount of interpersonal rivalry between Phil's old players, and the ones who were there in the 1990s; these latter are now the bulk of the board of the Tekumel Foundation. There was, and still is, a lot of what Gronan used to describe as "I have a bigger pee-pee then you do!", and over Phil's last summer one of my players - and now former friend / player - got the bright idea of visiting the invalid Phil once a week to keep him company. Another old gamer went with her, and it turned out that he was the one sitting up with Phil - she would spend a little time with him, and then start going through the house to see what she could pick up for my collection before the Tekumel Foundation could get to it. (1)

She went through the place like a vacuum cleaner, picking up anything and everything that she thought might be worth something. She's a devotee of flea markets and rummage sales, and she'd bring literally boxes of stuff that had little or no relationship to Tekumel over to my house and dump it off 'for the collection'. I checked back with Ambereen, and no, she hadn't authorized - or known about - what was going on, so I returned all the stuff promptly. This went on for the better part of a year, before this person finally wore out her welcome everywhere by her antics the day Phil passed away. (2)

It caused an immense number of problems, both personal and professional, and really poured a lot of salt on old wounds; she made a tense situation much worse, with repercussions that continue to this day - see also my being 'banned' from Gary Con by the Tekumel Foundation. A lot of paranoia got fed, and a lot of insecurities made a lot worse.

It got so bad that I finally had my brain bleed, and after some more goofy stuff on the part of the Foundation regarding Phil's legacy I simply refused to renew my contract with them.

And she later on became a stalwart member of the faction that tried to 'collect' my collections.

So, yes,  there are a lot of really bad nut cases in the mix, and I try very hard to stay away from all of them.

Re the Foundation, well, you've read this thread and others, I presume. Make up your own mind and make your own decisions.

(1) And, yes, this material included Phil and Ambreen's wedding photos. I was, and still am, genuinely shocked by that.

(2) This person also used to take my wife out to these things, and she'd come back with all sorts of junk that this person would claim was 'for the collection'; she'd pick the stuff out, and sell it to my wife. She used to get about $1,500 a year out of the Missus until I put a stop to it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 21, 2015, 11:30:41 AM
Quote from: nDervish;869862
Can you impart any wisdom on that front?  I've often wanted to play out shopping trips, but invariably get stuck with groups of players who want to treat the rulebook like a Sears catalog and just buy everything at list price between game sessions.

I think that just made my day.

Although I'm in Europe now, I grew up in the Twin Cities, played a couple times in Coffman around 1990, etc., so, as I've been reading this thread, I've always had the question in the back of my head, "Do I know anyone they gamed with?"  Now I know that the answer is at least a sort-of-yes.  :D  (I doubt the Baron remembers me, but he's a friend of several of my friends and we've talked briefly at cons a few times.)


It's like a trip through the market in any city in India; you'd wander about, and visit the merchants' shops; they'd invite you in, you'd have refreshments and discuss the weather, your families, and everything else under the sun. Eventually, the merchant would just happen to mention that he had something to sell, and would the noble person deign to look at the goods? Bargaining would occur, and the sale eventually made. See also the scene in "Casablanca", where Rick and Ilsa are in the market place.

Yes, Dave was a genius, and really set the tone for the Tinaliya. It was great fun to watch Phil get more and more put out by his own creation taking form.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 21, 2015, 11:42:33 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;869884
If you may could you give us an idea about what was the "mind set" of the nonhuman races on Tekumel during your adventures. Some of the stereotypes I know. Such as the Tinaliya are very literal. Shen will eat your children and you if you don't pay attention(do not mess with their eggs). Ninínyal will sell you your own stuff for double the price. The Knobbed Ones are an uncuth lot that smell and would pee on your walls without thinking twice...etc.

I especially like the Pachi Lei. For whatever reason, I love The Professor's illustration of them. I do know they have a tendency to lose control now and again.

Any insight into nonhumans would be helpful. So when the time comes, I can give the kids a good idea of what they are like.

Thanks,

H :0)

PS Please let me know if these sorts of questions are too elementary(I have not read the S&G sourcebook cover to cover yet).


No, they are not too elementary - if they are helping you enjoy Phil's creation, then they are very important to me.

You have the non-humans down pretty well. Use your favorite rules for NPC reactions to suit, and over time you'll develop individuals in each of the races - keep notes on their index cards. :)

Phil played this same way; he set the broad outlines of what the various non-humans were like, and then would let the dice develop them further.

The Pachi Lei are pretty decent folks, and pretty 'normal'; the Pe Choi are the 'most human', and tend to have a dry sense of humor - especially where we humans are concerned!

Have you got more specific / detailed questions?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: nDervish on December 21, 2015, 05:51:50 PM
Here's a somewhat bigger, though sadly less specific, question that's been coming to me over the last few days, then leaving as soon as I got near a keyboard:

In practice, how similar were Tekumel, Blackmoor, and Greyhawk?  I don't mean surface details like English vs. Tsolyani names or elaborate titles or the basic geography, but rather the mood and the atmosphere of the games.  But that still sounds like "Tekumel was Indian- and Meso-American-flavored while the others were European-flavored" would be the obvious answer...  I don't feel like I'm explaining my question at all well.

Looking at Bethorm and the latest Swords of the Petal Throne draft, I get the impression of Tekumel being a setting where status and politics are everything and that this makes it something very different than "just another D&D setting".  But, reading this thread, I see that you did a lot of the same kind of things in Phil's game as you did in Dave's or Gary's, and you've mentioned that you frequently ignored Prestige, which makes me question whether Tekumel might not have been as different as I thought or if it might in fact been different, but in a completely different way than I thought.

Is that any clearer than mud?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 21, 2015, 10:46:35 PM
Quote from: nDervish;870150
Here's a somewhat bigger, though sadly less specific, question that's been coming to me over the last few days, then leaving as soon as I got near a keyboard:

In practice, how similar were Tekumel, Blackmoor, and Greyhawk?  I don't mean surface details like English vs. Tsolyani names or elaborate titles or the basic geography, but rather the mood and the atmosphere of the games.  But that still sounds like "Tekumel was Indian- and Meso-American-flavored while the others were European-flavored" would be the obvious answer...  I don't feel like I'm explaining my question at all well.

Looking at Bethorm and the latest Swords of the Petal Throne draft, I get the impression of Tekumel being a setting where status and politics are everything and that this makes it something very different than "just another D&D setting".  But, reading this thread, I see that you did a lot of the same kind of things in Phil's game as you did in Dave's or Gary's, and you've mentioned that you frequently ignored Prestige, which makes me question whether Tekumel might not have been as different as I thought or if it might in fact been different, but in a completely different way than I thought.

Is that any clearer than mud?

It may be the weekend before I address this, but I've got a fair bit to say on the subject.  In the meantime, you can get a hint by rereading post 1490.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 22, 2015, 02:40:22 AM
Quote from: nDervish;870150
Here's a somewhat bigger, though sadly less specific, question that's been coming to me over the last few days, then leaving as soon as I got near a keyboard:

In practice, how similar were Tekumel, Blackmoor, and Greyhawk?  I don't mean surface details like English vs. Tsolyani names or elaborate titles or the basic geography, but rather the mood and the atmosphere of the games.  But that still sounds like "Tekumel was Indian- and Meso-American-flavored while the others were European-flavored" would be the obvious answer...  I don't feel like I'm explaining my question at all well.

Looking at Bethorm and the latest Swords of the Petal Throne draft, I get the impression of Tekumel being a setting where status and politics are everything and that this makes it something very different than "just another D&D setting".  But, reading this thread, I see that you did a lot of the same kind of things in Phil's game as you did in Dave's or Gary's, and you've mentioned that you frequently ignored Prestige, which makes me question whether Tekumel might not have been as different as I thought or if it might in fact been different, but in a completely different way than I thought.

Is that any clearer than mud?


I think so, at least from my standpoint. I agree with Gronan - have a look at #1490 as a lead-in for this.

First off, "Bethorm" is, in my opinion, just about the best 'simulation' of the way Phil looked at rules; simple combat system, complicated magic system. I had the chance to play a pre-publication game with Jeff and Amanda Dee, and it felt like one of Phil's old games.

I think what we're looking at here is something I'd call 'style'. (I'll come back to 'prestige', which was never a game thing for us, but has become a very real 'real-world' issue and thing for some folks.) Gronan pointed out that with Phil, the game world came first - he started working on it in his teens, and first started 'serious' work on it in the 1940s. Despite what some Tekumel fans have claimed, that Gary and Dave stole the idea for the concept of the RPG from Phil, all the evidence we have is that when Dave and Phil started gaming at CSA, both Bill Hoyt, Gronan, and Dave all suggested that he take his pre-existing world setting and write a game set in it. EPT was the result.

I'll let Gronan talk about Greyhawk, but he's right that both Blackmoor and Greyhawk were created as settings for games - see also the old C&C Society newsletters, which Jon Peterson summarized in his book. Tekumel was an existing world-setting that was used as the settings for games; Greyhawk and Blackmoor were evolved as settings for games into world-settings. When we played with Dave, there was no over-arching timeline or history of Blackmoor that existed like one did for Tekumel. The Blackmoor timeline grew and evolved as a result of the games played there, while in Tekumel our games were set within the over-all timeline and 'future history' that Phil had created in the '40s and '50s. I have a lot of his very early work in my archives, and there is very - and mean very - little drift between the early material and the stuff we published in the 1980s. You could run a Tekumel campaign with just the 1950s material, and nobody would notice any difference between it and the later material.

(I am not talking about rules systems - I am talking about the world-setting.)

'Early' Blackmoor, as published, is very different from 'late' Blackmoor, as published.

Our games in Phil's campaign were quite similar to the ones that Dave ran, with the very strong difference being that we had a lot more cultural material to work with. Originally, Blackmoor was pretty basic historical medieval, and you were pretty familiar with the tropes involved. With Tekumel, we had to feel our way into a very different culture - Mughal India. All of the tropes were very different, and our personal status and power made all the difference to the way we had out adventures. As I've remarked, Phil stopped handing out XP after a while, and instead gave us cultural rewards - offices, stipends, spells, etc.

Unlike in Blackmoor, we were part of the society we lived in, and we had to live in that society according to it's rules and customs or we'd suffer badly. We didn't have rules or game mechanics for how to do this in the game; we had to learn, both in game and from talking to Phil 'on the side'. Dave didn't really get into world-setting development until much later on, and Phil helped him a lot with this.

It's a 'style of gaming' thing; we assumed that we had to play the parts of our PCs, and so we did what a lot of people would call 'immersion' or 'play acting'; at the table, you could always tell when you were speaking to Kathy, and when you were speaking to Vrisa. Two very different people, and two very different voices.

So, yes, our adventures do look and sound like those in Blackmoor and Grehawk, but the setting against which they were played out was very different. No 'murderhobos', running around killing things; we had to have a good reason for it when we did things.

'Prestige' was never a game thing with Phil. We had reputations, based on our histories, but no 'prestige' stat or mechanic. Chirine had a reputation as a very reliable officer and soldier, as well as a ruthless killer. Which was true, actually.

Does any of this help? Am I even beginning to answer you? Let me pause, and give you a chance to weigh in... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 22, 2015, 02:57:17 AM
I've split this off, as it may not be all that useful to the discussion.

'Prestige', in Tekumel gaming circles, has over the past two decades come to mean the prestige that some folks feel that they are due as old-hand gamers out at Phil's. Some fans refer to these people as "Barker's Own", and they do consider themselves to be an elite of the elite, and as such enjoy great and powerful prestige - or at least feel that this is their just due.

I had a player - Gronan knows who - who routinely told the younger players in my gaming group that as one of Phil's 1974 players, they were entitled to first pick of anything the group / party picked up in their adventures, and that as a 'senior' player they should automatically be in charge and in command of everything. Everything revolved around this person - and it had nothing to due with the PC they was playing. It made for some very 'sub-optimal' game sessions, and eventually most of the younger players got tired of it and dropped out of the group.

As a game mechanic, though,  'Prestige' is pretty useful - didn't "Flashing Blades" (shows how old I am!) have this?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: nDervish on December 22, 2015, 07:56:52 AM
I think you've got the general idea of what I was asking, yes, but I think I'd like to hear a bit more at this point about how you saw the setting influencing the style.  What I'm getting from what you (and Gronan in #1490) have said so far is that the main difference in how the settings affected the games was that Phil actually had a fully-developed setting on day 1, while in Dave's game "there was no there there" - the setting didn't influence the game much because, for the most part, the setting didn't exist to have an influence.

But I'm also very interested in the differences in style, even apart from the influences of their respective settings.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;870209

'Prestige' was never a game thing with Phil. We had reputations, based on our histories, but no 'prestige' stat or mechanic.


Just to clarify (although I think you'd already sussed this), that's what I meant by the reference to "Prestige" - the Bethorm definition of Prestige as the average of Clan Influence and Professional Influence which determines your social standing, along with the general notes that a group of PCs should all have similar levels of Prestige and the description in section 3.4.4 Role-Playing Social Status that, if characters have a difference of 4 or more in their status, it's not considered appropriate for them to even speak to each other directly outside of exceptional circumstances.  But it's sounding like that's something which has been built up over the years (possibly in the same way as the "you must learn Tsolyani" perception?) rather than something that Phil did himself.

I wasn't aware of the other "prestige" you mentioned in the second post.  It seems that there are a disappointingly large number of dysfunctional elements clinging to the Tekumel community.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 22, 2015, 09:16:06 AM
Quote from: nDervish;870222
It seems that there are a disappointingly large number of dysfunctional elements clinging to humanity.


Fixed yer typo.  :D

Also, a quick thought before I dash off to work... Blackmoor and Greyhawk, at least at first, were about as 'medieval' as a Hollywood costume drama with a CHAIMAIL-like combat system (i.e. plate protects more than leather but you move slower, etc).  Gary even used to say his inspiration for the "alternate combat system" was the fight between Errol Flynn and Basil Rathbone at the end of "Robin Hood."

"The Middle Ages just as they were in Hollywood."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on December 22, 2015, 10:51:02 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;870210
As a game mechanic, though,  'Prestige' is pretty useful - didn't "Flashing Blades" (shows how old I am!) have this?
FB uses Social Rank (SR) which is a statistic based primarily on the character's birth and current rank and position in society. One's combat abilities, while crucial in surviving a duel, are nearly irrelevant in increasing one's Social Rank.

Some examples of Social Rank from my game.

   Guy de Bourges: born an untitled noble (SR 8); he was made a Knight of the Order of the Holy Ghost, giving him the title of the Chevalier de Sainte-Marie-du-Bois (SR 9) which supersedes his birth rank.
Hypothetically, if Guy was made a Baron (SR 10) that would be his new rank.

Seigneur de Chambre: born a manorial lord or seigneur (SR 9) he possesses great wealth which gives him +1 SR for a total (SR 10).

Father Signoret: born an untitled noble (SR 8), he is a priest (SR 4) and a secretary to Cardinal Richelieu (SR 6), neither of which increases his social rank above that of an untitled noble.
Hypothetically, if Father Signoret was appointed to a Bishop’s Curia (SR 8) having two ranks at SR 8 would count as the next higher rank, i.e. (SR 9).

Captain Gaston Thibeault: born the son of a wealthy merchant; he is an accredited Fencing Master (SR 6) and the Captain-Lieutenant of the Cardinal’s Guard, which counts as a Guards company, giving him (SR 9).
Hypothetically, if Gaston loses his position as the head of the Cardinal’s Guard he would drop back to (SR 6) unless he could find another position e.g. in the army. Not surprisingly, Richelieu believes this social rank gap is a good incentive for maintaining Gaston's loyalty.


Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 23, 2015, 02:13:42 AM
Quote from: nDervish;870222
I think you've got the general idea of what I was asking, yes, but I think I'd like to hear a bit more at this point about how you saw the setting influencing the style.  What I'm getting from what you (and Gronan in #1490) have said so far is that the main difference in how the settings affected the games was that Phil actually had a fully-developed setting on day 1, while in Dave's game "there was no there there" - the setting didn't influence the game much because, for the most part, the setting didn't exist to have an influence.

But I'm also very interested in the differences in style, even apart from the influences of their respective settings.

Just to clarify (although I think you'd already sussed this), that's what I meant by the reference to "Prestige" - the Bethorm definition of Prestige as the average of Clan Influence and Professional Influence which determines your social standing, along with the general notes that a group of PCs should all have similar levels of Prestige and the description in section 3.4.4 Role-Playing Social Status that, if characters have a difference of 4 or more in their status, it's not considered appropriate for them to even speak to each other directly outside of exceptional circumstances.  But it's sounding like that's something which has been built up over the years (possibly in the same way as the "you must learn Tsolyani" perception?) rather than something that Phil did himself.

I wasn't aware of the other "prestige" you mentioned in the second post.  It seems that there are a disappointingly large number of dysfunctional elements clinging to the Tekumel community.


I think were getting there. Let me have another run at this, if I could.

I think we're onto something when we talk about 'style'; one of the things I get puzzled by in a lot of forum discussions is the talk about 'game mechanics for social interactions'. I am not denigrating this, not at all; I can see a real need for this, as Bren was kind enough to point out. When Gronan and I played with Phil, we had no such mechanics; the 'custom of the house' was that you, the player, did this yourself in the game by your words and deeds; Phil would roll percentile dice for the NPCs' reactions to your actions, and we'd play from there. There was, as I've mentioned, a lot of 'play-acting' at the game table; Gronan in his 'real person' was a very different guy then Korunme was, for example.

And, of course, Phil would play the NPCs - every time he'd roll the d100, he'd note down what the NPC thought on their index card, so he had it for the next time we talked to that person. Style-wise, there wasn't a whole lot of 'separation' between a lot of Dave's players and their PCs; Fred was Fred, King of the Orcs, and so on. In our original Thursday Night Group, the style of play was very different, both in tone and in mechanics. We very rarely looked at the rules - EPT, at that time - and simply went with the flow of the action; the usual need for a 'game mechanic decision' was to roll d100, and go from there.

Bethorm's 'prestige' mechanic - I've now re-read that section - is a pretty good way to simulate the play style out at Phil's; normally, in our day, we'd be doing pretty much the exact same thing by the seat of our pants. Yes, one notmally does not speak directly with someone much higher or lower then one's self, unless there are special circumstances involved. Gronan would normally not be talking directly to his soldiers; he'd give an order to their officer, who would translate that into orders for the troops. I got into trouble once, at the Battle of Anch'ke, for presuming to give some troops orders directly - their senior officer quite rightly nailed me for it, and then had the troops do what we needed them to do by giving the orders himself.

Likewise, in a 'civil' situation, one would normally talk to people close to or the same as one's own social level. This was a feature of Phil's Tekumel from the beginning, and it was one of the ways he'd get it across to us that we weren't in Kansas anymore. If I wanted a bath, say, I'd let the person who was running my quarters know about it, and they would make it happen; because we are not out in public, we can converse pretty freely. If we were out in public, i.e., in front of other people, I'd make sure to go through the 'chain of command; me to the chamberlain, that worthy to the head chambermaid or groom of the chambers, and that worthy to the servant responsible for my room. If I was a better Lord, I'd have my own valet, and this person would see to everything. (I never got around to hiring one. Sorry.)

Phil's style was to have the classic 'Action! Adventure! Romance!', but set in and amongst this world-setting he'd been creating for some forty years before he started gaming in it. I think he had an advantage over both Gary and Dave in that he knew how Tekumel was supposed to work, in his view, and so could simply let a lot of stuff run 'on autopilot' in the background while he got on with the story-telling and adventuring.

Playing in Phil's Tekumel was very, very different from what playing in Dave's and Gary's games were like; in my experience, the two of them were a lot more focused on the action, and a lot more - and this is relative - 'casual' about how that world-setting worked or was supposed to work. Phil, on the other had, was relatively less focussed on the 'game aspects', and a lot more focussed on the society and social side of the thing.

We learned, pretty early on, how to judge our relative social status vis a vis the people we were dealing with. One did not insult a peasant farmer; to do so marked us as 'ignoble' people, and thus not worth cooperating with. Likewise, one was polite to one's social superiors, it worked much better then being rude or annoying.

Phil never addressed this in any of his rules sets - I don't think it ever occurred to him to do so, as it simply wasn't the way he played. I think that "Bethorm" helps to address this, as a way to try and bring what Phil did more or less naturally into a form that can be used in a game.

Is any of this helping you? I'm trying to compress a lot of years in the basement into something useful... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 23, 2015, 02:14:59 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;870230
Fixed yer typo.  :D

Also, a quick thought before I dash off to work... Blackmoor and Greyhawk, at least at first, were about as 'medieval' as a Hollywood costume drama with a CHAINMAIL-like combat system (i.e. plate protects more than leather but you move slower, etc).  Gary even used to say his inspiration for the "alternate combat system" was the fight between Errol Flynn and Basil Rathbone at the end of "Robin Hood."

"The Middle Ages just as they were in Hollywood."


Agreed! Looking forward to your thoughts on all this!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 23, 2015, 02:16:57 AM
Quote from: Bren;870279
FB uses Social Rank (SR) which is a statistic based primarily on the character's birth and current rank and position in society. One's combat abilities, while crucial in surviving a duel, are nearly irrelevant in increasing one's Social Rank.

Some examples of Social Rank from my game.

   Guy de Bourges: born an untitled noble (SR 8); he was made a Knight of the Order of the Holy Ghost, giving him the title of the Chevalier de Sainte-Marie-du-Bois (SR 9) which supersedes his birth rank.
Hypothetically, if Guy was made a Baron (SR 10) that would be his new rank.

Seigneur de Chambre: born a manorial lord or seigneur (SR 9) he possesses great wealth which gives him +1 SR for a total (SR 10).

Father Signoret: born an untitled noble (SR 8), he is a priest (SR 4) and a secretary to Cardinal Richelieu (SR 6), neither of which increases his social rank above that of an untitled noble.
Hypothetically, if Father Signoret was appointed to a Bishop’s Curia (SR 8) having two ranks at SR 8 would count as the next higher rank, i.e. (SR 9).

Captain Gaston Thibeault: born the son of a wealthy merchant; he is an accredited Fencing Master (SR 6) and the Captain-Lieutenant of the Cardinal’s Guard, which counts as a Guards company, giving him (SR 9).
Hypothetically, if Gaston loses his position as the head of the Cardinal’s Guard he would drop back to (SR 6) unless he could find another position e.g. in the army. Not surprisingly, Richelieu believes this social rank gap is a good incentive for maintaining Gaston's loyalty.




Thank you for posting this!!! This is an excellent example; Phil would do this 'in his head', from his index cards, and we learned to do the same when we lived in his world.

Wonderful Thank you! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 23, 2015, 02:37:29 AM
Quote from: Bren;870279
FB uses Social Rank (SR) which is a statistic based primarily on the character's birth and current rank and position in society. One's combat abilities, while crucial in surviving a duel, are nearly irrelevant in increasing one's Social Rank.


Let me elaborate on this a little bit, if I may.

Chirine is a Fifth Level Priest. He's also a Tenth Level Military Sorcerer. He thus has a pretty middling social position as a priest, but when he's in a military situation, he's got a lot more status.

He's also a Kasi, or 'captain', nominally in command of a 400-soldier cohort. However, he's a staff officer without an actual command, so he's got less status - line officers always have greater status then staff officers. Again, however, he's General Korunme's 'aide-de-camp', which is how it's put in English; a better translation would be "He's the General's personal hatchet-man, so do what he says." So, when he's on the General's business, he's as high status as the General himself; when not doing so, he's of lower status then the line officers.

He is a member of a sort of lower-middle clan, Eye of Flame, but got 'adopted' into the very high-status Iron Helm due to then-Prince Mirusiya. It also does not hurt when it comes to getting invitations to fancy parties that Chirine is also the guy who saved Mirusiya - the current Seal Emperor! - from an assassination attempt. There is an intangible status in being the known Imperial errand-boy, and known hatchet-man for the Tlakotani.

This is the kind of thing we learned to assess in a moment in Phil's games. The social situation and the niceties of one position played a very important role in our games, and I don't have a clue how you could 'quantify' it for games - but your example does! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 23, 2015, 04:41:50 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;870210
I've split this off, as it may not be all that useful to the discussion.

'Prestige', in Tekumel gaming circles, has over the past two decades come to mean the prestige that some folks feel that they are due as old-hand gamers out at Phil's. Some fans refer to these people as "Barker's Own", and they do consider themselves to be an elite of the elite, and as such enjoy great and powerful prestige - or at least feel that this is their just due.

I had a player - Gronan knows who - who routinely told the younger players in my gaming group that as one of Phil's 1974 players, they were entitled to first pick of anything the group / party picked up in their adventures, and that as a 'senior' player they should automatically be in charge and in command of everything. Everything revolved around this person - and it had nothing to due with the PC they was playing. It made for some very 'sub-optimal' game sessions, and eventually most of the younger players got tired of it and dropped out of the group.

As a game mechanic, though,  'Prestige' is pretty useful - didn't "Flashing Blades" (shows how old I am!) have this?
Why didn't you talk to him sternly, being the Referee? I mean, that goes against the setting's principles.
I had an experienced player attempt similar stuff. It ended up quickly.
"Now you should listen to me, 'cause I'm the most experienced RPG player..."
"Wrong, I'm the most experienced RPG player at this table, and it wouldn't fly even if you were. Now drop it OOC and stop trying to play their characters for them. You want them to do something, persuade them IC."
Since it wasn't the only case, I guess I need a viking hat and am a bad GM:p.

Also, I've ran Flashing Blades, too. Unlike Bren, who took the social rank system and used Honor+Intrigue, I even ran it RAW.
Good games are good games, whether you're born in the 60ies or in the 80ies;).

Quote from: nDervish;870222
I think you've got the general idea of what I was asking, yes, but I think I'd like to hear a bit more at this point about how you saw the setting influencing the style.  What I'm getting from what you (and Gronan in #1490) have said so far is that the main difference in how the settings affected the games was that Phil actually had a fully-developed setting on day 1, while in Dave's game "there was no there there" - the setting didn't influence the game much because, for the most part, the setting didn't exist to have an influence.
It will be interesting to hear what Gronan has to say. I'm reading him to mean that both Dave and Gary had a pre-existing setting, so there was a there there. It just paid as little attention to "can it exist on its own" question as Hollywood does.

Quote
Just to clarify (although I think you'd already sussed this), that's what I meant by the reference to "Prestige" - the Bethorm definition of Prestige as the average of Clan Influence and Professional Influence which determines your social standing, along with the general notes that a group of PCs should all have similar levels of Prestige and the description in section 3.4.4 Role-Playing Social Status that, if characters have a difference of 4 or more in their status, it's not considered appropriate for them to even speak to each other directly outside of exceptional circumstances.  But it's sounding like that's something which has been built up over the years (possibly in the same way as the "you must learn Tsolyani" perception?) rather than something that Phil did himself.
Nah, man, that's not remotely the same:). There are people that wouldn't talk to you unless you're recommended or cleared by their minions, always have been. They exist even today, and there's no indications the future would be any different.
Any criminal asking a US governor or president for clemency isn't likely to even see the man in question, just talk to some clerk who passes the petition to the guy with the power.
I'm glad Chirine cleared that out.

It worked likewise in Europe. As Flashing Blades noted in the 80ies, you can make any halfway reasonable demand if there is a 6-points difference in your Social Ranks. So, a free peasant will give food and shelter to the Baron who walked to his house. Since it's about being reasonable, some arguing can let you get away with a whole lot regarding people you outclass socially;).

Quote
I wasn't aware of the other "prestige" you mentioned in the second post.  It seems that there are a disappointingly large number of dysfunctional elements clinging to the Tekumel community.
As in all geek communities, the more info there is about the setting, any setting, the likelier it is to attract "setting purists" that know the canon forwards and backwards. Some of them try to get OOC benefits out of it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: nDervish on December 23, 2015, 07:23:19 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;870292

Gronan would normally not be talking directly to his soldiers; he'd give an order to their officer, who would translate that into orders for the troops. I got into trouble once, at the Battle of Anch'ke, for presuming to give some troops orders directly - their senior officer quite rightly nailed me for it, and then had the troops do what we needed them to do by giving the orders himself.
...
If we were out in public, i.e., in front of other people, I'd make sure to go through the 'chain of command; me to the chamberlain, that worthy to the head chambermaid or groom of the chambers, and that worthy to the servant responsible for my room.


So something like in naval (including "space navy") TV shows/movies, then, where the captain says, "hard to port", then the first officer says, "hard to port", and then a couple other guys say, "hard to port", and then the helmsman finally actually does something, even though they're all on the same bridge and every one of them could hear everyone else?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;870292

Phil's style was to have the classic 'Action! Adventure! Romance!', but set in and amongst this world-setting he'd been creating for some forty years before he started gaming in it.  I think he had an advantage over both Gary and Dave in that he knew how Tekumel was supposed to work, in his view, and so could simply let a lot of stuff run 'on autopilot' in the background while he got on with the story-telling and adventuring.


I'm extremely jealous of Phil's having been able to continue working with a single world long enough to reach that point.  I still hope to one day have a world that I've been running in for multiple decades, but, with the general culture of "gamer ADD", it seems unlikely to come to pass, even if I can avoid having my own gamer ADD ruin it for me.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;870292

We learned, pretty early on, how to judge our relative social status vis a vis the people we were dealing with.


What were some of the cues you'd rely on?  The way that other NPCs treated them?  Rumors (or recon) heard about the characters prior to meeting them?  Player knowledge of Tekumeli heraldry?

I'm assuming from your phrasing that it wasn't just a matter of Phil directly stating, "You can tell from his dress that he belongs to a high-status clan, but comes from a low lineage, and has these accomplishments..."

Quote from: chirine ba kal;870292

Is any of this helping you? I'm trying to compress a lot of years in the basement into something useful... :)


Yes, definitely!  I feel like I'm at least starting to get it, and perhaps there may not be as much to get as I'd expected.  :)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;870295

Chirine is a Fifth Level Priest. He's also a Tenth Level Military Sorcerer. He thus has a pretty middling social position as a priest, but when he's in a military situation, he's got a lot more status.

He's also a Kasi, or 'captain', nominally in command of a 400-soldier cohort. However, he's a staff officer without an actual command, so he's got less status - line officers always have greater status then staff officers. Again, however, he's General Korunme's 'aide-de-camp', which is how it's put in English; a better translation would be "He's the General's personal hatchet-man, so do what he says." So, when he's on the General's business, he's as high status as the General himself; when not doing so, he's of lower status then the line officers.

He is a member of a sort of lower-middle clan, Eye of Flame, but got 'adopted' into the very high-status Iron Helm due to then-Prince Mirusiya. It also does not hurt when it comes to getting invitations to fancy parties that Chirine is also the guy who saved Mirusiya - the current Seal Emperor! - from an assassination attempt. There is an intangible status in being the known Imperial errand-boy, and known hatchet-man for the Tlakotani.

This is the kind of thing we learned to assess in a moment in Phil's games. The social situation and the niceties of one position played a very important role in our games, and I don't have a clue how you could 'quantify' it for games - but your example does! :)


Oof!  Yeah...  I don't see how you could reasonably pack all that into a single number, or even three numbers (Bethorm's Clan Status/Professional Status/Prestige).

Quote from: AsenRG;870300

Since it wasn't the only case, I guess I need a viking hat and am a bad GM:p.


Skål!

Quote from: AsenRG;870300

Nah, man, that's not remotely the same:). There are people that wouldn't talk to you unless you're recommended or cleared by their minions, always have been. They exist even today, and there's no indications the future would be any different.
Any criminal asking a US governor or president for clemency isn't likely to even see the man in question, just talk to some clerk who passes the petition to the guy with the power.


All true, but what I keep reading is that it's much more rigid and stratified in Tekumel than in the modern world or in typical RPG settings.  In the real world, the prisoner can try to make an appointment with the governor, or call out to either governor or president if they happen to walk by.  In Tekumel, I get the impression that even attempting to speak directly to someone that far above his station might lead to impalement, or at least having his tongue cut out.

(And, just to be clear, I'm not saying it's a bad thing if my impression is accurate.  That would be a fairly major way in which the setting impacted the style of actual play, which is precisely the sort of thing I'm trying to identify here.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 23, 2015, 10:10:10 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;870293
Agreed! Looking forward to your thoughts on all this!!! :)


Thanks!

And in terms of social interactions with NPCs, remember we were also ALL "Diplomacy" players, and thus used to doing negotiations.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on December 23, 2015, 10:28:12 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;870295
He's also a Kasi, or 'captain', nominally in command of a 400-soldier cohort. However, he's a staff officer without an actual command, so he's got less status - line officers always have greater status then staff officers. Again, however, he's General Korunme's 'aide-de-camp', which is how it's put in English; a better translation would be "He's the General's personal hatchet-man, so do what he says." So, when he's on the General's business, he's as high status as the General himself; when not doing so, he's of lower status then the line officers.

Good point. FB (and my campaign) does something similar. When acting for someone else one may be able to use the social rank of the superior instead of one's own social rank. Typically, a difference of 6 social ranks is sufficient for the higher ranked person to compel a favor from the lower ranked person (bribes, gifts, tips, or return favors are still in order).

Example: Guy de Bourges (SR 9) tells the servant acting as the porter (SR 3) at the Hotel of the Duke de Bellegarde that Guy urgently needs to see the Duke. Ordinarily Guy should be able to compel the porter to help him (since there is a 6 point difference in their respective social ranks), but because the Duke has told his staff that he is "not at home" to callers, the porter resists Guy with Bellegarde's (SR 15) and easily puts Guy off. If Guy was acting on the orders of King Louis XIII, say to arrest the Duke, Guy could demand entry in the King's name and use the King's (SR 20) and would probably (though not automatically) gain access.

Though strictly speaking one can sometimes compel behavior and social rank acts as modifier to persuasion and other social interactions, the target may resent the usage, demand or expect a favor in return, or even become an enemy.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 24, 2015, 07:16:06 PM
I'm trying something new, for this reply; your'e in italics, I'm in plain text.

Why didn't you talk to him sternly, being the Referee? I mean, that goes against the setting's principles.

I did; three times. My normal rule is 'three times and you're out', but the players quit right about the same time I cut them from the group.

Also, I've ran Flashing Blades, too. Unlike Bren, who took the social rank system and used Honor+Intrigue, I even ran it RAW.
Good games are good games, whether you're born in the 60ies or in the 80ies;).


Well, I think so too. Mark Pettigrew did a lot of stuff for us, over the years, and I still use it in my games.

It will be interesting to hear what Gronan has to say. I'm reading him to mean that both Dave and Gary had a pre-existing setting, so there was a there there. It just paid as little attention to "can it exist on its own" question as Hollywood does.

Yes, I'd say that that was true. We did a lot of 'Hollywood history', back then, as it was about as much background as we needed for games. I did 'Humphrey-Bogart-defends-the-oasis', for example, in a WWII game. Phil was particularly fond of those 'Hollywood Aegyptus' potboilers, where the hapless slaves building the pyramid were trapped inside by the fiendishly clever pitfalls and secret doors. All wonderfully lurid and complicated, but lots of fun to play.

It worked likewise in Europe. As Flashing Blades noted in the 80ies, you can make any halfway reasonable demand if there is a 6-points difference in your Social Ranks. So, a free peasant will give food and shelter to the Baron who walked to his house. Since it's about being reasonable, some arguing can let you get away with a whole lot regarding people you outclass socially;).

Agreed! :)

As in all geek communities, the more info there is about the setting, any setting, the likelier it is to attract "setting purists" that know the canon forwards and backwards. Some of them try to get OOC benefits out of it.

Oh, mercy, yes. I'd never seen 'setting snobs' until this point, but Tekumel certainly has them in droves.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 24, 2015, 07:39:43 PM
We'lll try that again. Comments? It does make it easlier for me.

So something like in naval (including "space navy") TV shows/movies, then, where the captain says, "hard to port", then the first officer says, "hard to port", and then a couple other guys say, "hard to port", and then the helmsman finally actually does something, even though they're all on the same bridge and every one of them could hear everyone else?

Yes, with a short note. On ships, the captain and first officer may not be actually steering the ship; there's usually an 'officer of the watch' who's actually in command of the ship, and quite often a second officer - 'officer of the deck' who's actually driving the boat. (The actual terms vary quite a bit, though.) The watch officer controls everything up to the rails of the ship, and the deck officer is in charge of getting the boat from place to place. This officer 'has the conn', and you'll often hear the phrase "I have the conn" when somebody takes command. When the officer in command gives a rudder or engine order, the watch-stander running that control repeats the order back to let the officer know that it's been done.

This is all from our man in the Navy, who used to game with Gronan and I: Lt. Cdr. Lawrence Bond, USN (Ret.), usually known in gaming circles as Larry Bond. (Things like "Harpoon"; he also used to collaborate with Tom Clancy.)

As an example, when I'm afloat on my little galley, I never order the steersman to do something. I mention to the captain that I'd like to do something, and they tell the bo'sun, who tells the steersman. Now, I own the galley, but I do not command her; that's the captain's job.

"Kiya, I'd like to have a look at that island off to our left."
"Yes, sir. Bo'sun, take us inshore, please."
"Yes, Captain! Steersman, three points to port!"
"Three points to port, aye, aye!"

And as you point out, we're all standing within ten feet of each other. It's all about chain of command.

I'm extremely jealous of Phil's having been able to continue working with a single world long enough to reach that point.  I still hope to one day have a world that I've been running in for multiple decades, but, with the general culture of "gamer ADD", it seems unlikely to come to pass, even if I can avoid having my own gamer ADD ruin it for me.

Understood. It's all about sticking with it, and taking notes. Phil always wrote things down, for 'later'

What were some of the cues you'd rely on?  The way that other NPCs treated them?  Rumors (or recon) heard about the characters prior to meeting them?  Player knowledge of Tekumeli heraldry?

Yes, to all of the above. It also helped that we had literally dozens of drawings to hand; Phil had been drawing his world since the 1940s, and then again in 1974 for the miniatures line. All this stuff was to hand in the game room - my job was to organize it, and pull it out for people to look at as needed. In many cases, we knew what somebody looked like and now they dressed, and as time went on and more artwork was created for our publications, we had even more information to hand. People wear 'broad collars', similar to the Ancient Egyptian ones, and this has all sorts of useful information in the colors, trims, insignia, and glyphs. You can pretty much tell everything you need to know about somebody by simply looking at them, and then when you start talking to them is becomes very clear who everyone is and their relative status.

I'm assuming from your phrasing that it wasn't just a matter of Phil directly stating, "You can tell from his dress that he belongs to a high-status clan, but comes from a low lineage, and has these accomplishments..."

Correct. Phil very rarely, if ever, did this. You, the player, were supposed to be able to see from how they dressed and acted who they were - he'd give you a very full and correct description of them, but only if you asked. We learned to ask. Very, very quickly.

Yes, definitely!  I feel like I'm at least starting to get it, and perhaps there may not be as much to get as I'd expected.  :)

Understood - it's all about the play style, I think. We usually just 'role-played', and didn't worry too much about game mechanics.

Oof!  Yeah...  I don't see how you could reasonably pack all that into a single number, or even three numbers (Bethorm's Clan Status/Professional Status/Prestige).

Agreed. I do think Bethorm's system does help, though.

All true, but what I keep reading is that it's much more rigid and stratified in Tekumel than in the modern world or in typical RPG settings.  In the real world, the prisoner can try to make an appointment with the governor, or call out to either governor or president if they happen to walk by.  In Tekumel, I get the impression that even attempting to speak directly to someone that far above his station might lead to impalement, or at least having his tongue cut out.

Agreed. It's Mughal India all over, as Phil said on several occasions, and the place works in a very different manner to what we 'Westerners' are used to.

(And, just to be clear, I'm not saying it's a bad thing if my impression is accurate.  That would be a fairly major way in which the setting impacted the style of actual play, which is precisely the sort of thing I'm trying to identify here.)

Yes, very much so; Tekumel is a world-setting, not a set of rules. You, the GM, are the one who is working up the rules for how to play in that world-setting. That, I think, is the crucial difference.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 24, 2015, 07:43:22 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;870312
Thanks!

And in terms of social interactions with NPCs, remember we were also ALL "Diplomacy" players, and thus used to doing negotiations.


You're welcome!

I don't think I personally played much "Diplomacy", but I and we played a whole lot of "Kingmaker" - with just as much negotiation needed. (I had a bad habit of getting the Captaincy of Calais, and then 'inviting' as many heirs from both sides as I could to reside in the town. One then was able to play all sides of the fence. One should also get control of the fleet, to really make this work.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 24, 2015, 07:50:41 PM
Quote from: Bren;870315
Good point. FB (and my campaign) does something similar. When acting for someone else one may be able to use the social rank of the superior instead of one's own social rank. Typically, a difference of 6 social ranks is sufficient for the higher ranked person to compel a favor from the lower ranked person (bribes, gifts, tips, or return favors are still in order).

Though strictly speaking one can sometimes compel behavior and social rank acts as modifier to persuasion and other social interactions, the target may resent the usage, demand or expect a favor in return, or even become an enemy.


Oh, yes, very much so!

I forgot to mention the 'civil' aspect - posting after I get home from work, sorry. In my post as a Governor, I had civil control of the city and province (and the Chaigari Protectorate, but let's keep it simple) but not any Imperial forces in the area. I could make 'suggestions' to the general commanding, but their chain of command went straight back to Bey Sy and Avanthar. I commanded my own city guards, and that was about it.

Our time in Hekellu was a bit of an oddity; I was originally appointed Deputy Governor for Military Affairs, which was a rare office that goes back to Engsvanyali times. This was to make up for a very nasty lack of troops on the ground - "Send ba Kal; he'll fix it." And, to be polite about it, Governor Takodai was not known for his military skills.

Functionally, I commanded our little army; Takodai would tell me what he wanted us to do, and I'd try to make it happen.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 26, 2015, 06:32:59 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;870300

It will be interesting to hear what Gronan has to say. I'm reading him to mean that both Dave and Gary had a pre-existing setting, so there was a there there. It just paid as little attention to "can it exist on its own" question as Hollywood does.


Actually, just the opposite.  Once they both had a bit of space to play in the game started, and they scrambled madly to keep up with the players.  For a while when we needed healing we'd go to "the lawful temple."  I was the one who coined "First Church of Crom, Scientist" and "Mitra's Witnesses."  These were soon joined by "St. Cuthbert of the Cudgel" and "Church of Latter Day Great Old Ones."

This is a huge contrast to Phil's fully developed world and twenty temples.

Here's an article by Gary that talks more about him making it up madly.

http://gygaxslegendarium.blogspot.com/2012/04/to-forge-fantasy-world-greyhawks.html
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 26, 2015, 07:23:27 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;870658
Actually, just the opposite.  Once they both had a bit of space to play in the game started, and they scrambled madly to keep up with the players.  For a while when we needed healing we'd go to "the lawful temple."  I was the one who coined "First Church of Crom, Scientist" and "Mitra's Witnesses."  These were soon joined by "St. Cuthbert of the Cudgel" and "Church of Latter Day Great Old Ones."

This is a huge contrast to Phil's fully developed world and twenty temples.

Here's an article by Gary that talks more about him making it up madly.

http://gygaxslegendarium.blogspot.com/2012/04/to-forge-fantasy-world-greyhawks.html


Yep. This was also Dave's approach; I don;t know if there's anything like this essay up on the web anywhere, but this is pretty much the same kind of thing that Dave had said to me and others about the way he had to create Blackmoor - always trying to stay one step ahead of the players.

Phil, on the other hand, had This Thing pretty well developed from the first times out in 1973-4. From comments by Gary and Dave, over the years, they were floored when they first encountered Tekumel and played in it. (Yes, they both played in the pre-production campaign; I have copies of Phil's 'attendance sheets'.) Dave was the primary 'game influence' on Phil, with Gary somewhat less so, and I think it's safe to say that he was an influence on them from the 'world-building' side of the house.

For us, as players, the difference in the campaigns was very marked; in the 'D&D' campaigns, there was always a certain sense of making it up as you went along. In Phil's, we very early moved / evolved from 'playing EPT' to 'playing Tekumel'; we swam in a sea of already-developed cultural and social information, and we learned to adapt to that world and how it worked very early on.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 26, 2015, 11:16:33 PM
And Blackmoor and Greyhawk were very much influenced by the Conanesque mindset... we were there to "tread the jeweled thrones of Earth beneath our sandaled feet."  It took a while to realize that the thrust of Phil's Tekumel was becoming part of the society, not conquering it.  There is no EPT equivalent of the D&D trope of going out into the wilderness, clearing an area of monsters, building a castle, and becoming the Lord of Swamp Castle ("Some day, son, all this will be yours!")
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 26, 2015, 11:52:57 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;870689
And Blackmoor and Greyhawk were very much influenced by the Conanesque mindset... we were there to "tread the jeweled thrones of Earth beneath our sandaled feet."  It took a while to realize that the thrust of Phil's Tekumel was becoming part of the society, not conquering it.  There is no EPT equivalent of the D&D trope of going out into the wilderness, clearing an area of monsters, building a castle, and becoming the Lord of Swamp Castle ("Some day, son, all this will be yours!")



"What? The curtains?" :)

Very much so. The 'domain game' in Phil's Tekumel was being given one of the small two-hex fiefs, like Craig Smith in Tu'umnra or Gary Rudolph in Ferenara, and trying to run it. Gary's ended badly, with a very nasty slave revolt, and Craig's with him getting into too much Imperial politics. The idea was, as you say, a part of society and not outside of it.

It took a decade before Phil tried again, with Vrisa in the Nyemesel Isles and Chirine in Hekellu.

(Archival footnote: I have a copy of Craig's original map of his fief, from 1975.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 27, 2015, 07:37:34 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;870658
Actually, just the opposite.  Once they both had a bit of space to play in the game started, and they scrambled madly to keep up with the players.  For a while when we needed healing we'd go to "the lawful temple."  I was the one who coined "First Church of Crom, Scientist" and "Mitra's Witnesses."  These were soon joined by "St. Cuthbert of the Cudgel" and "Church of Latter Day Great Old Ones."

This is a huge contrast to Phil's fully developed world and twenty temples.

Here's an article by Gary that talks more about him making it up madly.

http://gygaxslegendarium.blogspot.com/2012/04/to-forge-fantasy-world-greyhawks.html

Quote from: chirine ba kal;870663
Yep. This was also Dave's approach; I don;t know if there's anything like this essay up on the web anywhere, but this is pretty much the same kind of thing that Dave had said to me and others about the way he had to create Blackmoor - always trying to stay one step ahead of the players.

Phil, on the other hand, had This Thing pretty well developed from the first times out in 1973-4. From comments by Gary and Dave, over the years, they were floored when they first encountered Tekumel and played in it. (Yes, they both played in the pre-production campaign; I have copies of Phil's 'attendance sheets'.) Dave was the primary 'game influence' on Phil, with Gary somewhat less so, and I think it's safe to say that he was an influence on them from the 'world-building' side of the house.

For us, as players, the difference in the campaigns was very marked; in the 'D&D' campaigns, there was always a certain sense of making it up as you went along. In Phil's, we very early moved / evolved from 'playing EPT' to 'playing Tekumel'; we swam in a sea of already-developed cultural and social information, and we learned to adapt to that world and how it worked very early on.

Okay, I obviously wasn't clear, if you both misunderstood me. But the link Gronan posted basically says what I meant:).

My point was, Gary and Dave (from what I've been told, mostly by you two...so I might be missing something), had a detailed map of the dungeon, a sketch of the city, and...well, the word "setting here" (or "here there be stuff") written around the city. It was there, them two just didn't bother detailing it.
The Lawful temple was still Lawful even after it became the Lawful temple of "St. Cuthbert of the Cudgel", too. It didn't change, you just got more details on it. And sometimes, those details on different temples would make sense, when you examined them with anthropology, economics and other instruments in mind - sometimes not.
Phil's world had most important details pre-written, though. And his details would make sense when combined, too - which was his greatest strength.
The difference would be like the difference between a heavy preparation GM and an improvisational GM, I suspect.

Still, no matter whether they had a pre-written setting, or the outlines of one and some means for adding details on the fly - they weren't changing stuff behind the scenes. These would be a third kind of GMs, which from what I gather wouldn't be popular in the "early scene".

Again, that's purely my conclusions based on what Gronan and Chirine had mentioned. I might well be wrong. Such is life;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;870689
And Blackmoor and Greyhawk were very much influenced by the Conanesque mindset... we were there to "tread the jeweled thrones of Earth beneath our sandaled feet."  It took a while to realize that the thrust of Phil's Tekumel was becoming part of the society, not conquering it.  There is no EPT equivalent of the D&D trope of going out into the wilderness, clearing an area of monsters, building a castle, and becoming the Lord of Swamp Castle ("Some day, son, all this will be yours!")
I pitched once "classical fantasy game" to some players, meaning "swords and sorcery in a magical steampunk world". To me, that's the classical feel. (After all, REH lived before LotR was written).

You're right that the trick in some games is to act as a conqueror, and in others, the trick is becoming part of things. But curiously, even in the early sources both kinds are represented. I mean, John Carter is trying to become part of Barsoom's society, while Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser are acting as conquerors, and Conan arguably changes his mode of action at some point:D!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;870693
"What? The curtains?" :)

Very much so. The 'domain game' in Phil's Tekumel was being given one of the small two-hex fiefs, like Craig Smith in Tu'umnra or Gary Rudolph in Ferenara, and trying to run it. Gary's ended badly, with a very nasty slave revolt, and Craig's with him getting into too much Imperial politics. The idea was, as you say, a part of society and not outside of it.

It took a decade before Phil tried again, with Vrisa in the Nyemesel Isles and Chirine in Hekellu.

(Archival footnote: I have a copy of Craig's original map of his fief, from 1975.)
What? Gary Gygax? That slave revolt;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 27, 2015, 09:13:26 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;870663
For us, as players, the difference in the campaigns was very marked; in the 'D&D' campaigns, there was always a certain sense of making it up as you went along. In Phil's, we very early moved / evolved from 'playing EPT' to 'playing Tekumel'; we swam in a sea of already-developed cultural and social information, and we learned to adapt to that world and how it worked very early on.


This may be IT.
Where the feeling that you have to have a masters degree in Tekumel to play it, or at least run it.
This giving the sense of "making it up as you went along" being antithetical to the play style.

There is some call to "make it your own" which implies that you would "make things up" in your own version of your game.
How do you reconcile this?

What is WRONG with taking the bones of the setting and adding your own meat?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on December 27, 2015, 11:21:22 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;870727
What is WRONG with taking the bones of the setting and adding your own meat?
Nothing.

But it will piss off some subset of the people who either don't like the new you added, who do like some old that you left out, just generally can't deal with change or the unexpected, or really don't like the world that you created and that it has the same name as some other world they liked better.

You see the same sort of thing in any RPG setting based on an existent canon (e.g. Star Wars, LotR, Star Trek) or with any movie adaptation of a beloved book.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 27, 2015, 07:31:56 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;870727
This may be IT.
Where the feeling that you have to have a masters degree in Tekumel to play it, or at least run it.
This giving the sense of "making it up as you went along" being antithetical to the play style.

There is some call to "make it your own" which implies that you would "make things up" in your own version of your game.
How do you reconcile this?

What is WRONG with taking the bones of the setting and adding your own meat?
=


Nothing.  What Chirine and I are doing is attempting to report as best we can how Phil's actual Tekumel felt different from Blackmoor and Greyhawk.

It is not possible for anybody but Phil to run "Phil's actual Tekumel," because even if you had 100% of Phil's information and knowledge, you still wouldn't be Phil.  So don't try!  Run YOUR Tekumel.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 27, 2015, 07:36:15 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;870718
Okay, I obviously wasn't clear, if you both misunderstood me. But the link Gronan posted basically says what I meant:).

My point was, Gary and Dave (from what I've been told, mostly by you two...so I might be missing something), had a detailed map of the dungeon, a sketch of the city, and...well, the word "setting here" (or "here there be stuff") written around the city. It was there, them two just didn't bother detailing it.
The Lawful temple was still Lawful even after it became the Lawful temple of "St. Cuthbert of the Cudgel", too. It didn't change, you just got more details on it. And sometimes, those details on different temples would make sense, when you examined them with anthropology, economics and other instruments in mind - sometimes not.
Phil's world had most important details pre-written, though. And his details would make sense when combined, too - which was his greatest strength.
The difference would be like the difference between a heavy preparation GM and an improvisational GM, I suspect.

Still, no matter whether they had a pre-written setting, or the outlines of one and some means for adding details on the fly - they weren't changing stuff behind the scenes. These would be a third kind of GMs, which from what I gather wouldn't be popular in the "early scene".


Ah, gotcha.  Yeah, that's pretty accurate.  "Here there be stuff" indeed, where "stuff" is a soup of everything from every book and movie Dave and or Gary ever liked.  And frankly I laughed out loud at Gary talking about how he eventually closed the slide to China because bringing people back was such a pain.  I've run into a lot of that myself as referee... "Crom dammit, this seemed like a good idea at the time..."

Sending the players to China or Barsoom (or Bazoom, the planet of busty horny Amazons) sounds great as a scribbled note while you're keying the dungeon.  And then one day "no shit, there we were."

As somebody said to Beowulf, "now is the time to make good on your boast."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 27, 2015, 11:04:04 PM
Okay, I obviously wasn't clear, if you both misunderstood me. But the link Gronan posted basically says what I meant:).

Understood. I think we're all on the same page, as it were.

My point was, Gary and Dave (from what I've been told, mostly by you two...so I might be missing something), had a detailed map of the dungeon, a sketch of the city, and...well, the word "setting here" (or "here there be stuff") written around the city. It was there, them two just didn't bother detailing it.
The Lawful temple was still Lawful even after it became the Lawful temple of "St. Cuthbert of the Cudgel", too. It didn't change, you just got more details on it. And sometimes, those details on different temples would make sense, when you examined them with anthropology, economics and other instruments in mind - sometimes not.
Phil's world had most important details pre-written, though. And his details would make sense when combined, too - which was his greatest strength.
The difference would be like the difference between a heavy preparation GM and an improvisational GM, I suspect.


I'd agree with this.

Still, no matter whether they had a pre-written setting, or the outlines of one and some means for adding details on the fly - they weren't changing stuff behind the scenes. These would be a third kind of GMs, which from what I gather wouldn't be popular in the "early scene".

True. Doing it 'on the fly' wasn't something we did, to the bast if my experience. It seemed a little dishonest, for some reason. It was also a lot more work, as you have to take a lot more notes.

Again, that's purely my conclusions based on what Gronan and Chirine had mentioned. I might well be wrong. Such is life;).

No, I think you're right on target, here.

I pitched once "classical fantasy game" to some players, meaning "swords and sorcery in a magical steampunk world". To me, that's the classical feel. (After all, REH lived before LotR was written).

Sounds cool!!! :)

You're right that the trick in some games is to act as a conqueror, and in others, the trick is becoming part of things. But curiously, even in the early sources both kinds are represented. I mean, John Carter is trying to become part of Barsoom's society, while Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser are acting as conquerors, and Conan arguably changes his mode of action at some point:D!

Very much so, and this was the source material not only for the games being written, but for the style of play.

What? Gary Gygax? That slave revolt;)?

:)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 27, 2015, 11:19:28 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;870727
This may be IT.
Where the feeling that you have to have a masters degree in Tekumel to play it, or at least run it.
This giving the sense of "making it up as you went along" being antithetical to the play style.

There is some call to "make it your own" which implies that you would "make things up" in your own version of your game.
How do you reconcile this?

What is WRONG with taking the bones of the setting and adding your own meat?
=


Well, I think you have it, here. I reconcile 'making it up' with 'having the details' the same way Phil did. He was very up-front about the fact that nobody, even himself, knew everything that there was to know about Tekumel and that he 'made stuff up' as needed in the course of the game campaign. As he put it "I can't think of everything!" and he was right up front that he very often would include something into his world setting when somebody asked him a question about that subject. For example, we didn't know a lot about the Nyemesel Isles until we went there; Phil used us a lot to explore his world, so that he could incorporate that information into his novels and texts.

Phil sad, over and over and over, that taking the world-setting that he had created and published and giving it to one for their use was what the game was all about. He assumed, from the beginning, that people would diverge from his timelines and story arcs; he also encouraged them to tell him about these digressions, as he loved to hear stories about his world just as much as the next fellow. If he thought that the diversion was any good, or of any use, he'd introduce it into his campaign and we'd have to deal with it. (See also Lord Gamalu, from upstate New York.)

Where Phil got very cranky was when people abused this, sending him unsolicited materials that they insisted that he include in 'Official' Tekumel - and then getting very upset when he'd say no or offer some advice on their work. (Gary had the same problem, over the years, and developed a stock reply.) People would tell Phil, to his face, why he was not doing Tekumel right, and why their material would fix it for him.

This syndrome got especially bad in the middle 1990s, when 'canon' became the buzzword. To the 'canonistas', doing anything aside from what The Great God said in The Sacred Scrolls is a violation of The One True Faith. I don't understand these folks, frankly; there's what Phil did, there's what I do, there's what you do. It's all equally valid. Unless, of course, you're trying to be the TSR of the late 1980s and into the 1990s.

Do I make stuff up? Yes, and so did Phil. (And so did Gary and Dave.) What we do is then write the stuff down, so we have it for later. Do that for forty years, and you get a lot of data built up. As Phil said, use as much or as little of that as you want - it's your campaign.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 27, 2015, 11:20:16 PM
Quote from: Bren;870732
Nothing.

But it will piss off some subset of the people who either don't like the new you added, who do like some old that you left out, just generally can't deal with change or the unexpected, or really don't like the world that you created and that it has the same name as some other world they liked better.

You see the same sort of thing in any RPG setting based on an existent canon (e.g. Star Wars, LotR, Star Trek) or with any movie adaptation of a beloved book.


Oh, true. How very, very true.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 27, 2015, 11:21:47 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;870760
Nothing.  What Chirine and I are doing is attempting to report as best we can how Phil's actual Tekumel felt different from Blackmoor and Greyhawk.

It is not possible for anybody but Phil to run "Phil's actual Tekumel," because even if you had 100% of Phil's information and knowledge, you still wouldn't be Phil.  So don't try!  Run YOUR Tekumel.


Agreed. I can't run 'Phil's Tekumel'; I've never been to South Asia. I can run something that is pretty close, according to the people who have played in my games and in Phil's, but that's the best I can do.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 27, 2015, 11:22:47 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;870762
Ah, gotcha.  Yeah, that's pretty accurate.  "Here there be stuff" indeed, where "stuff" is a soup of everything from every book and movie Dave and or Gary ever liked.  And frankly I laughed out loud at Gary talking about how he eventually closed the slide to China because bringing people back was such a pain.  I've run into a lot of that myself as referee... "Crom dammit, this seemed like a good idea at the time..."

Sending the players to China or Barsoom (or Bazoom, the planet of busty horny Amazons) sounds great as a scribbled note while you're keying the dungeon.  And then one day "no shit, there we were."

As somebody said to Beowulf, "now is the time to make good on your boast."


Agreed; ain't it the truth... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 30, 2015, 10:09:39 AM
How do dowries work?
Are they only for women?
Are there traditional items included in them?
What is the difference in value between clans of different status?
What happens if a dowry is stolen before a wedding? after one?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 30, 2015, 05:11:14 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;871176
How do dowries work?
Are they only for women?
Are there traditional items included in them?
What is the difference in value between clans of different status?
What happens if a dowry is stolen before a wedding? after one?
=


Wonderful question - Phil didn't talk too much about this in the Sourcebook, so we'll have to fall back on game sessions.

What we call 'dowries' are a part of the whole process of getting 'married'; this is usually negotiated by the various lineage and clan elders. People wanting to get formally married go through their clan(s), as it's a very 'civil' process and not a religious one. (One always invites the Temple officials to the wedding, though; it's considered polite.) The parties negotiate who is going to give what; normally a wealthier clan or lineage will provide more of the 'wedding gifts', but in a respectable proportion to what the less-wealthier cal can afford - it is considered very rude to 'over give'.

The idea it to set up the newlyweds with what they will need to get started in life, and to demonstrate the wealth and status of the clan(s). Both woman and men get this kind of thing, so yes, a man can be provided with a 'dowery'. The wedding agreement will spell out where the newlyweds will live - in which clan house, usually - and what clan and lineage any children will belong to. It will also specify who owns what property, making a distinction between personal property owned by the newlyweds, and any clan property that might be involved.

Yes, there are traditional items given! Bedding, furniture, tableware - and chests to store all of it in - are all very common gifts, and the wedding contract will specify who is responsible for giving them and owning them. And inheriting them, too. The actual festivities are held in the clan house, usually the larger and more wealthier one, and there is much feasting and party-giving. The 'dowery gifts' are normally presented at that time, as well as gifts from the relatives, friends, and associates of the newlyweds; baskets of fruit, fine wines, bolts of cloth, you name it; everybody confers beforehand, to make sure that everyone gives the right gift - and that there are no duplications.

As you mentioned, there can be differences between the status and wealth of the clans involved - sometimes really huge ones. A young lady from Sea Blue might happen to fall in love with a young man from Woven Mat; if they want to get formally married - and the clans will both suggest that they simply see each other and even live together instead, due to the difference in social status - then the clan elders will get together and figure out what they'll do to allow this to happen - and not make either clan look bad. In this case, the lower status clan will provide one class of gifts, like sleeping mats and furniture, and the higher status clan the metal gifts like lamps and such.

Cash gifts are sometimes given, if the newlyweds are affluent in their own right, but are not as popular with the relatives; friends and associates would be correct in doing this, as they may not know what the newlyweds need - distant relatives will also do this. Cash gifts are always given discreetly, and not flaunted - it would be considered rude and uncultured to do so.

The wedding gifts being stolen, either before or after the wedding festivities, would be a major scandal and would incite the clans involved to major efforts - and very likely violence - to get them back. Not only would it be rude to the newlyweds, it's an insult to the clans, and will result in some real excitement. The clans will do everything that they can to keep this scandal from becoming known, and will spare no expense - read hire player characters - to 'solve the crime' and recover the goods.

Does this help? I can go into more detail, having been a bystander to the negotiations over Chirine's wedding contracts. I should note that in an existing family setting, the Senior Wife (also called the Lady of the House) will be the one making the decisions and negotiating the contract. A smart husband(s) will keep his mouth shut and keep his hands out of this process, and let Herself run things.

[It works for me. I run the legion, and Si N'te runs the family. I say "Yes, dear" a lot, smile a lot, and sleep where I'm told to. - Chirine]

["Thank you, my husband. The Adjunant would like to see you in your office. Now."  "Yes, dear." "Thank you, my husband." (smiles) In my husband's culture, being able to support a number of wives and concubines denotes one's wealth and status, and since my husband is a great lord it is my responsibility to make sure that he has the proper household for that position. Happily, I am blessed by the goddess Mretten with some very kind and wonderful friends who are also my husband's friends. They needed places, I needed help managing things and taking care of the children - which is really what it is all about, after all - and everyone gets what they want and the kind of relationship that they want. We let him run the military, and we run everything else (smiles) - Si N'te]
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 30, 2015, 08:19:35 PM
If it was cash gifts given discreetly that was hijacked, would the clans still do everything that they can to keep this scandal from becoming known, and spare no expense to 'solve the crime' and recover the goods?

I ask because in my game the hijackers got hijacked themselves and wonder just how much effort would have been/being spent locating the lost dowry?

I assume there would be a reward for its recovery by a third party.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 30, 2015, 10:37:41 PM
Clap!STOMP!Clap!STOMP!

"And the validity of my statement is further proven by the fact that the Archbishop has fallen off his table."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 30, 2015, 11:15:56 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;871272
If it was cash gifts given discreetly that was hijacked, would the clans still do everything that they can to keep this scandal from becoming known, and spare no expense to 'solve the crime' and recover the goods?

I ask because in my game the hijackers got hijacked themselves and wonder just how much effort would have been/being spent locating the lost dowry?

I assume there would be a reward for its recovery by a third party.
=


Yes, they would. Aside from the value of the cash, it's a huge insult to both clans and an embarrassment to everyone. The clan elders will pretty much go berserk over this.

Oh, dear. One of those incidents. :eek:  If I were the hijackers, I would seek out and hijack the hijackers who hijacked them, and get the loot back. I would, if I were in this situation, bring back some body parts from the hijackers of your hijackers, and tell the clan involved that I'd managed to recover their stolen property. Because...

Why, yes, there will be a reward, and the clan will not cut off useful parts of my personal body and feed them to me in various rude ways.

My, oh, my; your players - I presume it's the players - are deep in the soup this time. Have they considered a trip to the Southern Continent or the Nyemsel Isles in the very near future? I know this sea captain who offers package tours...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 30, 2015, 11:19:34 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;871309
Clap!STOMP!Clap!STOMP!

"And the validity of my statement is further proven by the fact that the Archbishop has fallen off his table."

(Psst! What are we talking about, here, Your Generalship Sir? :confused: If this is in regard to falling off the table in the 'eroticism' thread, I don't want to know. Was it the baby-eating Bishop of Bath and Wells, perchance?)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 31, 2015, 09:50:14 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;871315
(Psst! What are we talking about, here, Your Generalship Sir? :confused: If this is in regard to falling off the table in the 'eroticism' thread, I don't want to know. Was it the baby-eating Bishop of Bath and Wells, perchance?)


Naw, just a non-sequitor for your amusement.  Well, and to see if anybody else recognizes it.

"What did you do with the OSHA inspector, Chittibob?"

Although that thread did make me want to get out the brain bleach and wire brush when remembering some of The Other Group's antics.  * shudder *  Anka'a and Kadarsha playing splishy splashy in a mud puddle is one thing; by the time I left that crew they'd gone all the way to "how sick and twisted can we be?"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 31, 2015, 03:17:13 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;871361
Naw, just a non-sequitor for your amusement.  Well, and to see if anybody else recognizes it.

"What did you do with the OSHA inspector, Chittibob?"

Although that thread did make me want to get out the brain bleach and wire brush when remembering some of The Other Group's antics.  * shudder *  Anka'a and Kadarsha playing splishy splashy in a mud puddle is one thing; by the time I left that crew they'd gone all the way to "how sick and twisted can we be?"


Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk! We are amused.

Yeah, I hear you. I talked to some of them when I was doing a bit of research for my book, and they are still pretty proud of being the 'edgy' and 'extreme' group.

Anka'a has gotten much more obsessed with this kind of thing over the years. Her current GM panders to this, as part of his being 'edgy' and 'inclusive'; they took a trip to the South Pole military base, and visited the base's shopping area - the PX, actually - and one of The Big Features of this formerly rather generic establishment is a very detailed sex-toy shop. Frm what I've seen, it's all part of this group's rivalry, wanting to be THE LGBT-friendly Tekumel group.

Sigh. Count me out of that, if you would...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 01, 2016, 04:39:21 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;870762
Ah, gotcha.  Yeah, that's pretty accurate.  "Here there be stuff" indeed, where "stuff" is a soup of everything from every book and movie Dave and or Gary ever liked.  And frankly I laughed out loud at Gary talking about how he eventually closed the slide to China because bringing people back was such a pain.  I've run into a lot of that myself as referee... "Crom dammit, this seemed like a good idea at the time..."

Sending the players to China or Barsoom (or Bazoom, the planet of busty horny Amazons) sounds great as a scribbled note while you're keying the dungeon.  And then one day "no shit, there we were."

As somebody said to Beowulf, "now is the time to make good on your boast."

Sign me up for Bazoom...:p
And my rule for "interdimensional jumping" is "give me more:)". Then again, that's how my current group got to Tekumel in the first place...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;870783
Okay, I obviously wasn't clear, if you both misunderstood me. But the link Gronan posted basically says what I meant:).

Understood. I think we're all on the same page, as it were.

My point was, Gary and Dave (from what I've been told, mostly by you two...so I might be missing something), had a detailed map of the dungeon, a sketch of the city, and...well, the word "setting here" (or "here there be stuff") written around the city. It was there, them two just didn't bother detailing it.
The Lawful temple was still Lawful even after it became the Lawful temple of "St. Cuthbert of the Cudgel", too. It didn't change, you just got more details on it. And sometimes, those details on different temples would make sense, when you examined them with anthropology, economics and other instruments in mind - sometimes not.
Phil's world had most important details pre-written, though. And his details would make sense when combined, too - which was his greatest strength.
The difference would be like the difference between a heavy preparation GM and an improvisational GM, I suspect.


I'd agree with this.

Well, glad both of you confirm I'm not wide off the mark.

Quote
Still, no matter whether they had a pre-written setting, or the outlines of one and some means for adding details on the fly - they weren't changing stuff behind the scenes. These would be a third kind of GMs, which from what I gather wouldn't be popular in the "early scene".

True. Doing it 'on the fly' wasn't something we did, to the bast if my experience. It seemed a little dishonest, for some reason. It was also a lot more work, as you have to take a lot more notes.

Well, I used to see it as dishonest. Then I realised not even the most complete campaign notes would include everything. You need to make up details. And the point where one counts as "on the fly" and the other as "preprepared" is, frankly, arbitrary.
IMO, YMMV and all that jazz, of course;).

Quote
Again, that's purely my conclusions based on what Gronan and Chirine had mentioned. I might well be wrong. Such is life.

No, I think you're right on target, here.

It's good to be right for things you've never seen!

Quote
I pitched once "classical fantasy game" to some players, meaning "swords and sorcery in a magical steampunk world". To me, that's the classical feel. (After all, REH lived before LotR was written).

Sounds cool!!! :)

Oh, they thought it's cool, too. But they were kinda confused at the "classical" part, since to them, "classical" meant "like Forgotten realms".

Quote
You're right that the trick in some games is to act as a conqueror, and in others, the trick is becoming part of things. But curiously, even in the early sources both kinds are represented. I mean, John Carter is trying to become part of Barsoom's society, while Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser are acting as conquerors, and Conan arguably changes his mode of action at some point:D!

Very much so, and this was the source material not only for the games being written, but for the style of play.

Yeah, the trouble is when they try to mix. You should see the faces of GMs expecting murderhobos when the players start making a power base since day one:D!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;870787
Well, I think you have it, here. I reconcile 'making it up' with 'having the details' the same way Phil did. He was very up-front about the fact that nobody, even himself, knew everything that there was to know about Tekumel and that he 'made stuff up' as needed in the course of the game campaign. As he put it "I can't think of everything!" and he was right up front that he very often would include something into his world setting when somebody asked him a question about that subject. For example, we didn't know a lot about the Nyemesel Isles until we went there; Phil used us a lot to explore his world, so that he could incorporate that information into his novels and texts.

Exactly. That's why I stopped seeing "on the fly GMing" as dishonest.
As a bonus, I can run almost any game with 15 minutes of preparation. It helps me with pick-up games.

Quote
Phil sad, over and over and over, that taking the world-setting that he had created and published and giving it to one for their use was what the game was all about. He assumed, from the beginning, that people would diverge from his timelines and story arcs; he also encouraged them to tell him about these digressions, as he loved to hear stories about his world just as much as the next fellow. If he thought that the diversion was any good, or of any use, he'd introduce it into his campaign and we'd have to deal with it. (See also Lord Gamalu, from upstate New York.)

Well, I learned that lesson in Talislanta and Exalted. Glad to hear it existed since the beginning, though.

Quote
Where Phil got very cranky was when people abused this, sending him unsolicited materials that they insisted that he include in 'Official' Tekumel - and then getting very upset when he'd say no or offer some advice on their work. (Gary had the same problem, over the years, and developed a stock reply.) People would tell Phil, to his face, why he was not doing Tekumel right, and why their material would fix it for him.

Well, of course he wasn't doing Tekumel the way their group would see as right. That's the point of being a GM, Referee, Seneschal, Wulin Sage, Dragon Master, Director, Loremaster or whatever you want to call it... you play what would be fun for you and your friends.

Quote
This syndrome got especially bad in the middle 1990s, when 'canon' became the buzzword. To the 'canonistas', doing anything aside from what The Great God said in The Sacred Scrolls is a violation of The One True Faith. I don't understand these folks, frankly; there's what Phil did, there's what I do, there's what you do. It's all equally valid. Unless, of course, you're trying to be the TSR of the late 1980s and into the 1990s.

Well, I guess to them the setting-as-written is like history, and setting-as-edited is like fantasy. And they're there to play a "historical" game.
Me? I don't think this attitude holds well even for historical games. There's way too much stuff we don't know, and I'm constructing my first reenactment set between posts in this forum;).

Quote
Do I make stuff up? Yes, and so did Phil. (And so did Gary and Dave.) What we do is then write the stuff down, so we have it for later. Do that for forty years, and you get a lot of data built up. As Phil said, use as much or as little of that as you want - it's your campaign.

Yeah, but if you then offload that to a new GM...
The new GM might need to scratch parts of it and start from there.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;870790
Agreed. I can't run 'Phil's Tekumel'; I've never been to South Asia. I can run something that is pretty close, according to the people who have played in my games and in Phil's, but that's the best I can do.

I admit I prefer going for Souteastern Asia for inspiration instead of South Asia. It still seems to work.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;871223
Wonderful question - Phil didn't talk too much about this in the Sourcebook, so we'll have to fall back on game sessions.

What we call 'dowries' are a part of the whole process of getting 'married'; this is usually negotiated by the various lineage and clan elders. People wanting to get formally married go through their clan(s), as it's a very 'civil' process and not a religious one. (One always invites the Temple officials to the wedding, though; it's considered polite.) The parties negotiate who is going to give what; normally a wealthier clan or lineage will provide more of the 'wedding gifts', but in a respectable proportion to what the less-wealthier cal can afford - it is considered very rude to 'over give'.

The idea it to set up the newlyweds with what they will need to get started in life, and to demonstrate the wealth and status of the clan(s). Both woman and men get this kind of thing, so yes, a man can be provided with a 'dowery'. The wedding agreement will spell out where the newlyweds will live - in which clan house, usually - and what clan and lineage any children will belong to. It will also specify who owns what property, making a distinction between personal property owned by the newlyweds, and any clan property that might be involved.

Yes, there are traditional items given! Bedding, furniture, tableware - and chests to store all of it in - are all very common gifts, and the wedding contract will specify who is responsible for giving them and owning them. And inheriting them, too. The actual festivities are held in the clan house, usually the larger and more wealthier one, and there is much feasting and party-giving. The 'dowery gifts' are normally presented at that time, as well as gifts from the relatives, friends, and associates of the newlyweds; baskets of fruit, fine wines, bolts of cloth, you name it; everybody confers beforehand, to make sure that everyone gives the right gift - and that there are no duplications.

As you mentioned, there can be differences between the status and wealth of the clans involved - sometimes really huge ones. A young lady from Sea Blue might happen to fall in love with a young man from Woven Mat; if they want to get formally married - and the clans will both suggest that they simply see each other and even live together instead, due to the difference in social status - then the clan elders will get together and figure out what they'll do to allow this to happen - and not make either clan look bad. In this case, the lower status clan will provide one class of gifts, like sleeping mats and furniture, and the higher status clan the metal gifts like lamps and such.

Cash gifts are sometimes given, if the newlyweds are affluent in their own right, but are not as popular with the relatives; friends and associates would be correct in doing this, as they may not know what the newlyweds need - distant relatives will also do this. Cash gifts are always given discreetly, and not flaunted - it would be considered rude and uncultured to do so.

The wedding gifts being stolen, either before or after the wedding festivities, would be a major scandal and would incite the clans involved to major efforts - and very likely violence - to get them back. Not only would it be rude to the newlyweds, it's an insult to the clans, and will result in some real excitement. The clans will do everything that they can to keep this scandal from becoming known, and will spare no expense - read hire player characters - to 'solve the crime' and recover the goods.

Does this help? I can go into more detail, having been a bystander to the negotiations over Chirine's wedding contracts. I should note that in an existing family setting, the Senior Wife (also called the Lady of the House) will be the one making the decisions and negotiating the contract. A smart husband(s) will keep his mouth shut and keep his hands out of this process, and let Herself run things.

[It works for me. I run the legion, and Si N'te runs the family. I say "Yes, dear" a lot, smile a lot, and sleep where I'm told to. - Chirine]

["Thank you, my husband. The Adjunant would like to see you in your office. Now."  "Yes, dear." "Thank you, my husband." (smiles) In my husband's culture, being able to support a number of wives and concubines denotes one's wealth and status, and since my husband is a great lord it is my responsibility to make sure that he has the proper household for that position. Happily, I am blessed by the goddess Mretten with some very kind and wonderful friends who are also my husband's friends. They needed places, I needed help managing things and taking care of the children - which is really what it is all about, after all - and everyone gets what they want and the kind of relationship that they want. We let him run the military, and we run everything else[/B] (smiles) - Si N'te]

Might I add, that's the smart approach...:D

Quote from: chirine ba kal;871390

Anka'a has gotten much more obsessed with this kind of thing over the years. Her current GM panders to this, as part of his being 'edgy' and 'inclusive'; they took a trip to the South Pole military base, and visited the base's shopping area - the PX, actually - and one of The Big Features of this formerly rather generic establishment is a very detailed sex-toy shop. Frm what I've seen, it's all part of this group's rivalry, wanting to be THE LGBT-friendly Tekumel group.

Sigh. Count me out of that, if you would...

Well, it seems to me that Tekumel wouldn't care much about stuff like orientation (the very concept of which as a trait and not as something you do, being a rather new one). I mean, clan elders would ask you to have scions of the clan.
As soon as you have that - and seriously, with Tekumel's sexuality, that shouldn't be an issue even for gay couples - you can do what you want.
I guess that either makes me progressive, or a patriarchal, entitled cis hetero guy, depending on who you ask. I'm fine with either title, and frankly, I consider such titles to be telling much...for the person that bestowed them;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 03, 2016, 05:08:58 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;871594

Well, it seems to me that Tekumel wouldn't care much about stuff like orientation (the very concept of which as a trait and not as something you do, being a rather new one). I mean, clan elders would ask you to have scions of the clan.
As soon as you have that - and seriously, with Tekumel's sexuality, that shouldn't be an issue even for gay couples - you can do what you want.
I guess that either makes me progressive, or a patriarchal, entitled cis hetero guy, depending on who you ask. I'm fine with either title, and frankly, I consider such titles to be telling much...for the person that bestowed them;).


As an issue on Tekumel, it's a not starter. Nobody much cares about it, and the Imperium takes the position that if you pay your taxes and don't start a rebellion, it's just not their problem. (The Imperium has lots of other, more serious, problems to worry about.)

It's become a hot-button issue due to some of the personalities involved. One of these people played a gay character in my campaigns for years, and came up with this long and involved back-story about how badly they had been persecuted for being gay. After a few sessions where it came up, I pointed out that there had been nothing of the sort in the decades they'd been playing with me, and I asked point-blank where the persecution had come from. Thy told me that they'd made it all up, as it fit in better with the narrative they were espousing in their real-world activites as a LGBT activist. They were pretty upset that I would not change things to suit their political agenda, in the game, so that they could further their LGBT political activities.

Another member of the group said it all reminded him of gay bath house politics and intrigues, and I have to say that I think he was right.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 03, 2016, 07:09:04 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;871843
As an issue on Tekumel, it's a not starter. Nobody much cares about it, and the Imperium takes the position that if you pay your taxes and don't start a rebellion, it's just not their problem. (The Imperium has lots of other, more serious, problems to worry about.)

It's become a hot-button issue due to some of the personalities involved. One of these people played a gay character in my campaigns for years, and came up with this long and involved back-story about how badly they had been persecuted for being gay. After a few sessions where it came up, I pointed out that there had been nothing of the sort in the decades they'd been playing with me, and I asked point-blank where the persecution had come from. Thy told me that they'd made it all up, as it fit in better with the narrative they were espousing in their real-world activites as a LGBT activist. They were pretty upset that I would not change things to suit their political agenda, in the game, so that they could further their LGBT political activities.

Another member of the group said it all reminded him of gay bath house politics and intrigues, and I have to say that I think he was right.


Is this my cue to say "Mr. Brunel, you have a railroad to build?"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 03, 2016, 11:52:44 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;871857
Is this my cue to say "Mr. Brunel, you have a railroad to build?"


Probably. I'm in the process of tossing out all the stuff we've been stuck with ove the decades, like the sets for the now-abandoned Klingon fans' local-access TV show. (Need the interior of a D-7? Have I got deal for you!) I'm looking forward to gettine a lot of space back here at the house, and the Sandcastle-on-Sea Railway will live again.

(http://members.bitstream.net/~minetyoo/ (http://members.bitstream.net/~minetyoo/) he said modestly. I got to visit the Weymouth Quay Tramway and Minety, once upon a time, and touched the broad-gauge rail that's still in place.)

The new regime seems to suit me; I got my set of scale furniture built, and a little orrery of Tekumel's solar system built this past week. I also added a bit to my book; I am now up to 120,574 words, and I'm off on the adventure of the Affair of the Malchairan Emerald.

It's been a very good week... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: TheShadow on January 04, 2016, 03:57:29 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;871873
Need the interior of a D-7? Have I got deal for you!


If only it had been a K't'inga perhaps we could have talked...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 04, 2016, 12:04:46 PM
Quote from: The_Shadow;871891
If only it had been a K't'inga perhaps we could have talked...


Sorry. What they wanted was the 'classic Trek' look to their sets; the actual sets were the usual set corridors redressed. So that's what I gave them, built to be moved into and out of the public access studios that they were using. They lost interest after a while, when they found out just how much grinding work television production really is - they didn't know anything about editing and post production, for example - they sort of faded away and left me with a bunch of set elements in storage.

>shrug<
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on January 04, 2016, 01:48:02 PM
30,000+ views. I guess if this was Twitter you would be a world wide celeb.
Hopefully it indicates that your book will at least attract a few eyes and may spark off a few more games.

I think an important factor that has been brushed over is the TIME that was spent playing. A lot of the details we hear of sound as if they leaped full cloth into existence where as there was mention the game days and real days were mostly in sync.
Plus the later days when so much had been established, are the one more clearly recalled.
It would be nice to have a "Prequel" that gave an insight to the first few levels of character (and setting) development.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 04, 2016, 02:35:56 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;871940
30,000+ views. I guess if this was Twitter you would be a world wide celeb.
Hopefully it indicates that your book will at least attract a few eyes and may spark off a few more games.

I think an important factor that has been brushed over is the TIME that was spent playing. A lot of the details we hear of sound as if they leaped full cloth into existence where as there was mention the game days and real days were mostly in sync.
Plus the later days when so much had been established, are the one more clearly recalled.
It would be nice to have a "Prequel" that gave an insight to the first few levels of character (and setting) development.
=


Oh; you're right! I guess I'm a little surprised that so many people drop by and have a look here; my random musings are really driven by all of you, I'd like to think... :)

I hope that the account of our adventures inspires people to get out there and play, in any world and in any set of rules. We had a lot of fun, and I think that's what's the important thing.

I agree with you about the time factor. I have the impression that most campaigns (as we called them) these days last for a relatively short time; we went on and on and on for literally decades. I agree with you about the 'prequel' idea, which will be what Book One will be. That's proving the hardest one to write, actually, as a lot of our adventures were not all that easy to describe - a lot of them were more or less 'dungeon crawls', set against the background of the world setting, and were frankly - plot-wise - kind of run of the mill. we had an immense amount of fun doing them, as we were 'learning the ropes', as it were, and my biggest challenge is making that process interesting and hopefully useful to the reader (and gamer, of course.) We had a front-row seat as Phil's 1940s - 1950s creation evolved and grew under the impetus of our being there and asking all sorts of questions.

"Those pesky player-characters!" as Phil said on occasion... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on January 04, 2016, 04:02:13 PM
You mentioned that after playing for a while, the game sort of "drifted" from using a game system as written, dropping xp for "in world" rewards, using  % rolls with rules of thumb, etc., while holding closer to the rules for things like combat. Given this, why was there never an effort to create a system-less source book/world , maybe with conversion guides to major systems in it? I know that you and the Glorious General had already made millions of dollars at Adventure Games selling Tekumel stuff ;) so you were probably jet setting around the world but I would have thought that would have been the most natural way to get Tekumel out there, especially in the late 80's and early 90's. You probably would not have gotten any richer but it might have spread the world around more.
On a side thought to this, do you think there are any rpg systems that couldn't handle Tekumel well?

When an adventurer or group brings something new and unseen before back from wherever and the Empire/Temple/Clans claims it, what happens to it? Does it go into a museum where they show it off? An R&D department? The big giant warehouse full of boxes from the end of Indiana Jones, never to be seen again? Can you ever borrow from the stockpile?

It is funny that you mention canonistas. It seemed that was very common in the 90s, which was odd. Seemed like a lot of people wanted to play in museums instead of in living worlds.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 05, 2016, 02:29:16 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;871954
You mentioned that after playing for a while, the game sort of "drifted" from using a game system as written, dropping xp for "in world" rewards, using  % rolls with rules of thumb, etc., while holding closer to the rules for things like combat. Given this, why was there never an effort to create a system-less source book/world , maybe with conversion guides to major systems in it? I know that you and the Glorious General had already made millions of dollars at Adventure Games selling Tekumel stuff ;) so you were probably jet setting around the world but I would have thought that would have been the most natural way to get Tekumel out there, especially in the late 80's and early 90's. You probably would not have gotten any richer but it might have spread the world around more.
On a side thought to this, do you think there are any rpg systems that couldn't handle Tekumel well?

When an adventurer or group brings something new and unseen before back from wherever and the Empire/Temple/Clans claims it, what happens to it? Does it go into a museum where they show it off? An R&D department? The big giant warehouse full of boxes from the end of Indiana Jones, never to be seen again? Can you ever borrow from the stockpile?

It is funny that you mention canonistas. It seemed that was very common in the 90s, which was odd. Seemed like a lot of people wanted to play in museums instead of in living worlds.

Great questions - let me hit them in order, if I may.

System-less - The concept didn't exist, back then, in the early 1980s. The S&G Sourcebook was systemless, as there were no rules in it at all - that was for Volumes II and III. Everybody, back then, wanted to be the next biggest thing in the industry - after all, if those two idiots could be a success, then MY system will make millions. Lots and lots of people all thought that they could write the perfect RPG, and use Tekumel as the point-of-purchase display to sell their systems.

And when we did tell people about Phil's preferred 'you roll, I roll' method, they tended to freak out. "Too simple", "Too loosey-goosey", "Too handwavy" are the current terms of art that I've been hearing for the past several years. If you have a look at the videos I have up on YouTube, you'll see this style of play in action; I still run things this way, and it seems to work.

I do agree with your points, too; Tekumel is a world-setting, not a system, and it can be used with any RPG you want to. I don't know much about RPGs; I have never played anything newer then AD&D, and I didn't play much OD&D - Gary and Dave were not 'rules lawyers'. I think you'd be better able to answer the question then I could , or other folks could - I simply have no data, as I have never played anything; people have always asked to run games for them! Well, one exception: we had Kyrinn Eis in for a weekend, and he ran her world for us. Wonderful time, and I really enjoyed myself.

Stuff - Yes, to all of the above. It all depends on one's connections. As a PC, I routinely 'borrowed' stuff from the Imperial museums, storehouses, Temple treasuries, you name it. You make sure that it's understood that you're not liable if you lose it in the course of your adventure, but beyond that it's considered 'noble' to properly equip your agents. Ask your clan or Temple to help you; You'd be amazed at what you can get if you ask nicely.

I once got issued a tubeway car by the Imperium, for example. One owner, good paint, and I could borrow it for as long as I wanted to.

'Museum' / 'living' - Agreed. Phil's campaign was a living, breathing thing that sometimes ran off in directions he didn't expect it to. We extended that in our fanzines, including dispatches from campaigns all over the world.

Does any of this help? I worry... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on January 05, 2016, 10:30:51 AM
Very helpful and fascinating, don't worry!

I understand why in the early 80's there was no system-less (gonna strike gold in them thar rules!) but after that glow faded I figured that an updated S&G Sourcebook would have worked, especially with all the generic systems that were in vogue (GURPS, HERO, BRP) at the time. Plus it seems to fit the Good Professor's personality, as you and others described it, with regards to his stance on system vs setting, which seems to have been use whatever you want and just enjoy the world.

As for the "Too simple", "Too loosey-goosey", "Too handwavy" I can see that driving some people crazy but hitting the sweet spot for others.  There was a time when I wanted lots of rules, lots of crunch, while now that seems shackling to me and "Too simple", "Too loosey-goosey", "Too handwavy" would be much preferred to a rule for everything and everything has a rule.

I asked about the whether Tekumel wouldn't work with certain systems because one of the things that you hear whenever you talk Tekumel is that there is only One Way to play it, which is something you and others combat (thank you, btw). It can only run with this and only this system and if you have your PhD in one of the languages and you played at least x times with the Good Professor, etc.. I think it could be played with pretty much anything. I have found myself playing all sorts of games over the years, thinking- I could use this in a Tekumel game. Admittedly, I came into gaming in Tekumel backwards. I started gaming in the mid 80's and never heard of it when I started. Not long after I started gaming, I stumbled across a book in a used book store called Man of Gold that blew me away and made me think while I was reading it- I really want to game in this world. Only later did I find out that gaming in Tekumel happened before the novel!

Another thing that has stood out to me is the amount of female players in the  Professor's games. It seems like a higher % than in most other groups I have ever seen. Do you think that is because of Professor Barker or the setting? Both? maybe I am just misreading the gender balance in some of the stories you have told

I know that this is a real-world-butting-in question, but during any game, did anybody ever go "screw ! it is too damn hot! Let's move to Nluss or northern Yan Kor!" I had a couple of players who struggled with Tekumel because of climate and the culture it spawns. They were old D&D hands and the idea of not walking around in full armor because of 110 F heat just drove them crazy! Not that they hated the game but it really threw them off of their game! One actually said "I feel naked walking around naked". We all died laughing but understood what he meant- that he felt vulnerable without a full suit of armor.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on January 05, 2016, 01:29:13 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;872065
They were old D&D hands and the idea of not walking around in full armor because of 110 F heat just drove them crazy! Not that they hated the game but it really threw them off of their game! One actually said "I feel naked walking around naked". We all died laughing but understood what he meant- that he felt vulnerable without a full suit of armor.


As far as the original TSR version of the rules, fighting can get you killed!
It may go against the grain but I suspect that coming to blows was a Last Resort and that maybe being naked helps to stimulate non-combat solutions.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 05, 2016, 02:12:55 PM
Very helpful and fascinating, don't worry!

Thanks! That's a relief! :)

I understand why in the early 80's there was no system-less (gonna strike gold in them thar rules!) but after that glow faded I figured that an updated S&G Sourcebook would have worked, especially with all the generic systems that were in vogue (GURPS, HERO, BRP) at the time. Plus it seems to fit the Good Professor's personality, as you and others described it, with regards to his stance on system vs setting, which seems to have been use whatever you want and just enjoy the world.

Agreed. Phil's attitude was that he wanted to see people "playing Tekumel", and didn't care a whole lot about what set of rules that they used. We never said "We're playing EPT (or whatever)," we always said "we're playing Tekumel - or Blackmoor, or Ram's Horn, or Mos Eisley." It's a huge difference in approach, I think. Brett Slocum has done a lot of rules adaptations, for example, that seem to work quite well.

Part of the issue is that once Phil did something, he usually never went back to it. He did the Sourcebook the way he wanted to, and never really looked back. Keep in mind that there was never any money being invested, never any 'professional' help, and never any huge profits to anything done for Tekumel. The one product that did well was the TSR EPT, with 11,000 copies sold (info from Kevin Blume), and after that it was all 250 to 500 copy print runs or far, far smaller. (The novels did not sell well; DAW printed 15,000 of the first one, sold about 5,000, and eventually pulped the rest. "Flamesong" had a 5,000 copy print run, and about half of those were unsold and pulped.) Tekumel, between 1980 and 1988, was pretty much entirely funded out of my back pocket.

And, as Dave Arneson once told Phil, "You can't design games in a vacuum." Phil was, by the middle 1980s, pretty isolated in his gaming; all he had was the two groups at the house, and very occasional trips to the FLGS to play some miniatures. We simply had no exposure to what was happening in the game industry, when the time and need you talk about came along. Interest in Tekumel was dropping pretty fast in the late 1980s, and so there was even less interest in doing much of anything.

As for the "Too simple", "Too loosey-goosey", "Too handwavy" I can see that driving some people crazy but hitting the sweet spot for others.  There was a time when I wanted lots of rules, lots of crunch, while now that seems shackling to me and "Too simple", "Too loosey-goosey", "Too handwavy" would be much preferred to a rule for everything and everything has a rule.

Understood. I got a lot of this from OSR people, who kept telling me that the key to better RPGS was having more and more comprehensive rules sets. When I pointed out what we did back in the times that they were trying to emulate / simulate, then tended to get upset.

I asked about the whether Tekumel wouldn't work with certain systems because one of the things that you hear whenever you talk Tekumel is that there is only One Way to play it, which is something you and others combat (thank you, btw). It can only run with this and only this system and if you have your PhD in one of the languages and you played at least x times with the Good Professor, etc.. I think it could be played with pretty much anything. I have found myself playing all sorts of games over the years, thinking- I could use this in a Tekumel game. Admittedly, I came into gaming in Tekumel backwards. I started gaming in the mid 80's and never heard of it when I started. Not long after I started gaming, I stumbled across a book in a used book store called Man of Gold that blew me away and made me think while I was reading it- I really want to game in this world. Only later did I find out that gaming in Tekumel happened before the novel!

I agree; you can use anything to play in the world setting. Phil did; I can remember when we used HotT and WRG for battles. It's what works for you and your game group.

The 'One True Way' approach came about because some of Phil's 1990s players were trying to position themselves as Very Important People in the game hobby - that's where they got the not very flattering nickname of "Barker's Own", and their reputations as elitists. The Official Party Line for much of the later 1990s and well into the 2000's was that "You must learn from me, and have no other play style, because I Am Important!" I don't worry about My Position In Gaming; if you can take away anything useful from my ramblings, then I'm happy.

Another thing that has stood out to me is the amount of female players in the  Professor's games. It seems like a higher % than in most other groups I have ever seen. Do you think that is because of Professor Barker or the setting? Both? maybe I am just misreading the gender balance in some of the stories you have told

It's all true. We were considered freaks in gaming because we normally had about half the group at any given time was female. We got a lot of rude comments about it, too, which may have enhanced our feeling of being out of the 'mainstream' of gaming. We had some very talented and clever people, amd some of them happened to be women - we never looked at that, or really cared; we just played. About the only 'rule' was a guideline from Phil that men should pay men, and women women, but that was because he thought it was much easier to remember at the table. It very, very rarely even came up at the table or in play, and about the only time it did come up was when one of the artists asked Phil what somebody was wearing.

Quite of the lot of the leading personalities in Phil's Tekumel happened to be female, and we met quite a few of them.

I know that this is a real-world-butting-in question, but during any game, did anybody ever go "screw ! it is too damn hot! Let's move to Nluss or northern Yan Kor!" I had a couple of players who struggled with Tekumel because of climate and the culture it spawns. They were old D&D hands and the idea of not walking around in full armor because of 110 F heat just drove them crazy! Not that they hated the game but it really threw them off of their game! One actually said "I feel naked walking around naked". We all died laughing but understood what he meant- that he felt vulnerable without a full suit of armor.

I don't think this ever came up; Gronan, did it ever come up for you? The in-setting assumption was since we were natives, we'd be used to the situation. If anything, if we did go north we'd complain about the cold.

I think that part of this was that some of us (like Gronan and myself) were used to wearing armor, and had done so in the heat of summer for extended periods of time. We knew, from very practical experience, just how much we could take, and how much we needed to drink water to stay functional. It's why Tekumelyani armor is not often fully-articulated, and has a lot of open areas to help with cooling.

It's Ancient Egypt. People managed to build the pyramids, in all that heat, so we figured that we could bash a few heads... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 05, 2016, 02:14:05 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;872086
As far as the original TSR version of the rules, fighting can get you killed!
It may go against the grain but I suspect that coming to blows was a Last Resort and that maybe being naked helps to stimulate non-combat solutions.
=


Precisely! This adventuring lark is a good way to get dead, so we spent a lot of time trying not to get dead. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on January 05, 2016, 04:08:16 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;872086
As far as the original TSR version of the rules, fighting can get you killed!
It may go against the grain but I suspect that coming to blows was a Last Resort and that maybe being naked helps to stimulate non-combat solutions.
=

Quote from: chirine ba kal;872092
Precisely! This adventuring lark is a good way to get dead, so we spent a lot of time trying not to get dead. :)


All true, but for many who started playing after OD&D, especially AD&D and beyond, it was nothing but fight fight fight. I am reminded of the scene in the comedy film Gamers: Dorkness Rising when the new player suggests negotiating as a useful way to handle encounters and the old hands look at her in speechless horror. "Negotiation isn't your style?" she asks and they reply "Not exactly, no. Our philosophy is: beat it until it stops moving ...and then shoot it... ...and then step on its 'nads."

It is my understanding that in many games now, all fights are level appropriate, meaning characters have at least a punchers chance in every encounter so I doubt if negotiation is every mentioned at most tables. And dropping something completely out of a parties league would be considered bad form from many I have talked to. Kind of a shame.

On to questions, did anybody ever play a member of the OAL? All through the novels and various other sources, it strongly implied that the OAL doesn't mess around, like they are more organized and unified in purpose, overall generally more on the ball than all the clans, temples and secret societies. Almost like they were the only group that could sort of almost step outside of the rigid cultural rules that bound everybody else when they were on the job. I always thought you could run some neat spy/caper/mystery games using OAL members but haven't had the chance yet.

This is a little esoteric but how does the worship of Ksarul work? He is asleep and locked up, so how can his followers get anything from him? All the other Temples worship a being that can, in theory, give them things or punish them or interact with them in some way but it would seem that Ksarul would not be able to do anything for his followers. Is it kind of like Cthulhu where he can somehow send dreams and portents or whatever out? How did the Ssu end up with one of the keys? I wouldn't think it would have been entrusted to them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 05, 2016, 05:01:39 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;872040
Great questions - let me hit them in order, if I may.

System-less - The concept didn't exist, back then, in the early 1980s. The S&G Sourcebook was systemless, as there were no rules in it at all - that was for Volumes II and III. Everybody, back then, wanted to be the next biggest thing in the industry - after all, if those two idiots could be a success, then MY system will make millions. Lots and lots of people all thought that they could write the perfect RPG, and use Tekumel as the point-of-purchase display to sell their systems.

And when we did tell people about Phil's preferred 'you roll, I roll' method, they tended to freak out. "Too simple", "Too loosey-goosey", "Too handwavy" are the current terms of art that I've been hearing for the past several years. If you have a look at the videos I have up on YouTube, you'll see this style of play in action; I still run things this way, and it seems to work.

I do agree with your points, too; Tekumel is a world-setting, not a system, and it can be used with any RPG you want to. I don't know much about RPGs; I have never played anything newer then AD&D, and I didn't play much OD&D - Gary and Dave were not 'rules lawyers'. I think you'd be better able to answer the question then I could , or other folks could - I simply have no data, as I have never played anything; people have always asked to run games for them! Well, one exception: we had Kyrinn Eis in for a weekend, and he ran her world for us. Wonderful time, and I really enjoyed myself.

Stuff - Yes, to all of the above. It all depends on one's connections. As a PC, I routinely 'borrowed' stuff from the Imperial museums, storehouses, Temple treasuries, you name it. You make sure that it's understood that you're not liable if you lose it in the course of your adventure, but beyond that it's considered 'noble' to properly equip your agents. Ask your clan or Temple to help you; You'd be amazed at what you can get if you ask nicely.

I once got issued a tubeway car by the Imperium, for example. One owner, good paint, and I could borrow it for as long as I wanted to.

'Museum' / 'living' - Agreed. Phil's campaign was a living, breathing thing that sometimes ran off in directions he didn't expect it to. We extended that in our fanzines, including dispatches from campaigns all over the world.

Does any of this help? I worry... :)


Hello,

Just a follow up question about Tubeway cars...I think I have been thinking about them in the wrong way. I have been thinking of them as being similar to trains. For example, they go only on "their line". But it just dawned on me that as long as you have the right "Tubeway Car disk"(or coordinates), you can take any Tubeway car to that location. Is this the way it is? Thanks much.

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 06, 2016, 02:09:11 AM
[From Big Andy:] All true, but for many who started playing after OD&D, especially AD&D and beyond, it was nothing but fight fight fight. I am reminded of the scene in the comedy film Gamers: Dorkness Rising when the new player suggests negotiating as a useful way to handle encounters and the old hands look at her in speechless horror. "Negotiation isn't your style?" she asks and they reply "Not exactly, no. Our philosophy is: beat it until it stops moving ...and then shoot it... ...and then step on its 'nads."

Understood. That's not the way Phil ran his Tekumel; we often ran into things that would kill us stone cold dead if we didn't start talking really quickly - or run the other way. We killed stuff when and if we had to - melees were just too deadly, if we hadn't been prepared for them, and we all had a real desire to keep our PCs alive - no matter what Phil threw at us. We didn't spend a lot of our game time fighting, over the years.

It is my understanding that in many games now, all fights are level appropriate, meaning characters have at least a punchers chance in every encounter so I doubt if negotiation is every mentioned at most tables. And dropping something completely out of a parties league would be considered bad form from many I have talked to. Kind of a shame.

Wow. Is this what's being talked about concerning a 'balanced game'? It's like the WWII game where I sent a jeep down a road on recon, just like they did in Normandy. Sure enough, somebody took a shot at them, with a tank gun that was 'way above their level'. We played a lot of Tekumel the same way - everything was 'scenario-based', where we'd kick down the door and find ourselves barging into some Temple's ceremony; all the temple guards in the world would then descend on us, and it would all be due to the player doing the mapping making a mistake - "I think we shoulda turned left, back there..."

For us, part of the challenge of the game was playing way out of our league, and still surviving to tell about it. Phil was always happy to oblige, too.

On to questions, did anybody ever play a member of the OAL? All through the novels and various other sources, it strongly implied that the OAL doesn't mess around, like they are more organized and unified in purpose, overall generally more on the ball than all the clans, temples and secret societies. Almost like they were the only group that could sort of almost step outside of the rigid cultural rules that bound everybody else when they were on the job. I always thought you could run some neat spy/caper/mystery games using OAL members but haven't had the chance yet.

Not in our original group, but we'd never know - it's the secret police, after all. As for playing them, yes, it's a great way for people to run mysteries and capers - I'd certainly let one of my players try it, if they asked.

This is a little esoteric but how does the worship of Ksarul work? He is asleep and locked up, so how can his followers get anything from him? All the other Temples worship a being that can, in theory, give them things or punish them or interact with them in some way but it would seem that Ksarul would not be able to do anything for his followers. Is it kind of like Cthulhu where he can somehow send dreams and portents or whatever out? How did the Ssu end up with one of the keys? I wouldn't think it would have been entrusted to them.

The answer we saw is that he manages to extend his influence throughout the Planes of Reality, despite being confined. He certainly does answer his worshipper's prayers - I've seen it in action. And yes, dreams and portents happen all the time.

As to how the Black Ssu got one of the dang Keys / Wards, ya got me; we never found out. And they could keep the thing, as far as I am concerned...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 06, 2016, 02:19:13 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;872122
Hello,

Just a follow up question about Tubeway cars...I think I have been thinking about them in the wrong way. I have been thinking of them as being similar to trains. For example, they go only on "their line". But it just dawned on me that as long as you have the right "Tubeway Car disk"(or coordinates), you can take any Tubeway car to that location. Is this the way it is? Thanks much.

H :0)


Yes; all the standard - spherical - cars can go to any station. It's only the longer 'pill-shaped' transports that have to go to specific stations, as these are the ancients' troop and cargo carriers. The standard cars are all the same shape and diameter, so they can go anywhere on the system, but do differ in their internal details as they were often personal property of the ancients.

The 'memory discs' have ten preselected destinations on them, and the car will go to them when you press the 'pre-selected' button; otherwise, you get the last ten destinations that were programmed into the car; the destinations from the last disc used stay in the car's memory until a new disc is inserted, or some 'helpful' person reprograms the car. It is possible to wipe the car's memory, which is really annoying as the car will then just sit there and do nothing. It's also possible to reprogram the discs, but one has to be a pretty high-level wizard to do it.

The tubes are on a sort of 'hub and spoke' system; the cars will travel through the tubes, and often change over to a different tube in one of the huge interchange and repair areas. I do not advise getting out and looking around - many of the machines still work, as do the robotic guards.

All of this is why one should always take one's disc out of the console, and take it with when disembarking from the car. It's really bad to lose your disc, too.

Does this help? More? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 06, 2016, 10:02:32 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;872117
All true, but for many who started playing after OD&D, especially AD&D and beyond, it was nothing but fight fight fight. I am reminded of the scene in the comedy film Gamers: Dorkness Rising when the new player suggests negotiating as a useful way to handle encounters and the old hands look at her in speechless horror. "Negotiation isn't your style?" she asks and they reply "Not exactly, no. Our philosophy is: beat it until it stops moving ...and then shoot it... ...and then step on its 'nads."


That has nothing to do with rules or setting, and everything to do with poor play and bad refereeing.

In Greyhawk and Blackmoor we negotiated a LOT.  Then the game got into the hands of adolescent non wargamers who ignored the morale and negotiation rules.  This is not conjecture; I've been told "Oh, we just ignored that" countless times.

Sigh.  Take away gold for XP, don't raise monster XP levels, eliminate negotiation and morale, and then bitch that the game is a bloodbath at low levels.

In OD&D, CHARISMA has a writeup several times larger than any other stat.

The rules can't fix stupid.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 06, 2016, 10:06:19 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;872208

Wow. Is this what's being talked about concerning a 'balanced game'? It's like the WWII game where I sent a jeep down a road on recon, just like they did in Normandy. Sure enough, somebody took a shot at them, with a tank gun that was 'way above their level'.


Ah, yes, the game where "Trigger Happy Thompson" earned his sobriquet...

If memory serves the firing gun was actually an 88mm FlaK 36.  I seemed to remember he missed, but the shock wave from the shell took the driver's helmet off...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 06, 2016, 01:44:50 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;872230
Ah, yes, the game where "Trigger Happy Thompson" earned his sobriquet...

If memory serves the firing gun was actually an 88mm FlaK 36.  I seemed to remember he missed, but the shock wave from the shell took the driver's helmet off...


Your memory does serve; the GI's drove the jeep into the ditch, and got on their radio. And as predicted, the 88 was under - wait for it! - The Pink Tree Of Death... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on January 06, 2016, 02:02:05 PM
Since we're talking tubeways...
Did anyone ever map them, even a part? I understand that the whole system is interconnected but did anyone ever chart which places were directly connected, where certain switching stations (you and the General are train guys so I hope I am using that term correctly. If not, I willingly accept your mockery!) are, etc? I know a tubeway rutter was an important plot point in A Death of Kings I believe. I figure since you guys sailed around, working a sextant or whatever would make it possible,

Did you guys ever go inside one of the sealed cities of the Shunned Ones? I know they occasionally venture out of them so I assume there is a way back in, ala Logan's Run or something similar.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;872229

In Greyhawk and Blackmoor we negotiated a LOT.  Then the game got into the hands of adolescent non wargamers who ignored the morale and negotiation rules.  This is not conjecture; I've been told "Oh, we just ignored that" countless times.

Sigh.  Take away gold for XP, don't raise monster XP levels, eliminate negotiation and morale, and then bitch that the game is a bloodbath at low levels.

I have asked many players who only want combat when they play an rpg why they don't wargame instead and have never got an answer that makes sense. But then again, many of the most popular wargames have little or no morale or CnC rules in them, just little metal/plastic soldiers who willingly march wherever and whenever the player wants, no matter what horrible death awaits them there. Also, doesn't seem like there are as many people that play both rpgs and wargames as there used to be. Seems like a lot of people sit in one camp or the other.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on January 06, 2016, 02:07:00 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;872264

I have asked many players who only want combat when they play an rpg why they don't wargame instead and have never got an answer that makes sense. But then again, many of the most popular wargames have little or no morale or CnC rules in them, just little metal/plastic soldiers who willingly march wherever and whenever the player wants, no matter what horrible death awaits them there. Also, doesn't seem like there are as many people that play both rpgs and wargames as there used to be. Seems like a lot of people sit in one camp or the other.


I put the blame on computer games :-) I don't believe any of them have any morale rules and so it's a kill fest of epic proportions and that translates to the table top. With no experience or someone to guide them players will do what the computer teaches them to do which is kill! kill! KILL! to get the XP and then take their stuff.

Nigel
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 06, 2016, 02:32:44 PM
[From: Big Andy]

Since we're talking tubeways...
Did anyone ever map them, even a part? I understand that the whole system is interconnected but did anyone ever chart which places were directly connected, where certain switching stations (you and the General are train guys so I hope I am using that term correctly. If not, I willingly accept your mockery!) are, etc? I know a tubeway rutter was an important plot point in A Death of Kings I believe. I figure since you guys sailed around, working a sextant or whatever would make it possible,



I don't know about anyone else, but I did take notes on our travels. The Tsolyani really don't use maps per se but rutters are very common so I did that. I have a sort of schematic diagram showing what connects to what, and through what switching station, but as a flat map it really needs to be redone as a three-dimensional one.

Not a sextant, used an astrolabe. Same difference, really, so we could tell how far north or south we were; east and west took being in a location for a while so I could make observations and calculations - see also the 'lunar distance method' for working out longitude.

Did you guys ever go inside one of the sealed cities of the Shunned Ones? I know they occasionally venture out of them so I assume there is a way back in, ala Logan's Run or something similar.

Yes. You can get into them via a tubeway or the airlocks that lead into them, but you can't stay long - very different (and fatal) atmosphere. And they don't like visitors, either.

I have asked many players who only want combat when they play an rpg why they don't wargame instead and have never got an answer that makes sense. But then again, many of the most popular wargames have little or no morale or CnC rules in them, just little metal/plastic soldiers who willingly march wherever and whenever the player wants, no matter what horrible death awaits them there. Also, doesn't seem like there are as many people that play both rpgs and wargames as there used to be. Seems like a lot of people sit in one camp or the other.

Agreed. I don't know when the deep chasm opened, but I've found it very difficult to get people to think outside their specific genre.

And yes, a lot of wargames are very much in the mold of the first-person shooter. It sells more product, that way - see also the GW 'market demographic', which is short on morale factors and very long on shoot 'em up.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 06, 2016, 02:34:59 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;872265
I put the blame on computer games :-) I don't believe any of them have any morale rules and so it's a kill fest of epic proportions and that translates to the table top. With no experience or someone to guide them players will do what the computer teaches them to do which is kill! kill! KILL! to get the XP and then take their stuff.

Nigel


Agreed. I've seen this all too many times at the local FLGS. It gets old to watch, and I like miniatures...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on January 06, 2016, 06:45:47 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;872229
That has nothing to do with rules or setting, and everything to do with poor play and bad refereeing.

In Greyhawk and Blackmoor we negotiated a LOT. Then the game got into the hands of adolescent non wargamers who ignored the morale and negotiation rules.  This is not conjecture; I've been told "Oh, we just ignored that" countless times.

Sigh.  Take away gold for XP, don't raise monster XP levels, eliminate negotiation and morale, and then bitch that the game is a bloodbath at low levels.

In OD&D, CHARISMA has a writeup several times larger than any other stat.

The rules can't fix stupid.


image with example?
https://scontent.ftpa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/12510254_10208415197288050_6408120974162011106_n.jpg?oh=ab8d611dce88f8926c0a377adc8253cb&oe=57195FFD
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 06, 2016, 06:52:33 PM
Since my personal ur-wargame is historical miniatures, the notion of " wargames without morale" is oxymoronic to me.

Of course on this very site people have told me that historical miniatures aren't wargames, so what the hell do I know.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 06, 2016, 08:46:26 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;872210
Yes; all the standard - spherical - cars can go to any station. It's only the longer 'pill-shaped' transports that have to go to specific stations, as these are the ancients' troop and cargo carriers. The standard cars are all the same shape and diameter, so they can go anywhere on the system, but do differ in their internal details as they were often personal property of the ancients.

The 'memory discs' have ten preselected destinations on them, and the car will go to them when you press the 'pre-selected' button; otherwise, you get the last ten destinations that were programmed into the car; the destinations from the last disc used stay in the car's memory until a new disc is inserted, or some 'helpful' person reprograms the car. It is possible to wipe the car's memory, which is really annoying as the car will then just sit there and do nothing. It's also possible to reprogram the discs, but one has to be a pretty high-level wizard to do it.

The tubes are on a sort of 'hub and spoke' system; the cars will travel through the tubes, and often change over to a different tube in one of the huge interchange and repair areas. I do not advise getting out and looking around - many of the machines still work, as do the robotic guards.

All of this is why one should always take one's disc out of the console, and take it with when disembarking from the car. It's really bad to lose your disc, too.

Does this help? More? :)

Helps? Yes!!! More, if you must...I am waiting for the storming of King Bassa's Palace. Speaking of Suu...

Just some quick questions in regard to those sweet smelling menaces. How many types are there? We have the big black ones and the grey ones(maybe rumors of green Suu?). Did you ever encounter any other varieties?

Also I've heard that they have a chirping-sing-song way of speaking. Is their language intelligable to any of the friendly races and humans? Is there ever any comunication between Suu and Humans(I could see comunicating by telepathy)? So is there ever any parlaying? Or is it always to the death(or I need to get my ... out of there depending on circumstances)?

Thanks

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 06, 2016, 10:12:16 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;872262
Your memory does serve; the GI's drove the jeep into the ditch, and got on their radio. And as predicted, the 88 was under - wait for it! - The Pink Tree Of Death... :)


God, I'd forgotten that...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 07, 2016, 01:52:30 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;872305
Since my personal ur-wargame is historical miniatures, the notion of " wargames without morale" is oxymoronic to me.

Of course on this very site people have told me that historical miniatures aren't wargames, so what the hell do I know.


Say what? Run that one past me again, Glorious General? I think I just boggled. :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 07, 2016, 02:04:14 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;872318
Helps? Yes!!! More, if you must...I am waiting for the storming of King Bassa's Palace. Speaking of Suu...

Just some quick questions in regard to those sweet smelling menaces. How many types are there? We have the big black ones and the grey ones(maybe rumors of green Suu?). Did you ever encounter any other varieties?

Also I've heard that they have a chirping-sing-song way of speaking. Is their language intelligable to any of the friendly races and humans? Is there ever any comunication between Suu and Humans(I could see comunicating by telepathy)? So is there ever any parlaying? Or is it always to the death(or I need to get my ... out of there depending on circumstances)?

Thanks

H :0)


I'm working on it; right now, I'm just starting the Affair of the Malcahiran Emerald. :)

All we ever saw was hordes and hordes of Grey Ssu; we'd encounter small parties of them in the Underworlds, and then larger groups in remote areas. The Black Ssu showed up later, about 1977, mostly as parties of explorers and adventurers; our first big fight with them happened right after Phil got his first samples from Ral Partha.

The 'green' Ssu happened because the artist who did the cover art for "Flamesong" got the color wrong. Phil was mightily upset, especially as he'd had me send Don Wohlheim a complete set of all the then-available miniatures and a copy of the Painting Guide for Don to send out to all the artists - this came about because of the Whelan cover to "Man of Gold", which Phil Did Not Like. as soom as the book came out, Phil was inundated with anguished letters and phone calls asking about these 'new' Ssu.

Eventually, the other group ran into some of them, over on the far side of the world,  but there's very little documentation from that period and from that group. You pays your money and you takes your chances. We never encountered them, anyway.

The Ssu speak in what sounds like wind-chimes, and humans do not understand it. There was no communication between the two species over the years, as the thought processes are too different - this was Phil's reason why the 'Telepathy' spell didn't work on them. No parleys with them; they hate us, we hate them, and usually if anybody hung around to fight it was to the bitter end. There were also times when one or both sides would run off and bring back help, and those nights got pretty hairy.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 07, 2016, 02:32:00 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;872324
God, I'd forgotten that...


The background to this is perhaps a good cautionary tale, with even a moral at the end. So, on with Story Time With Uncle Chirine!

This game was one of the bigger ones we did at the Conflict Simulation Association meetings (The U of Mn club) on a Saturday; Gronan had gotten a huge pile of 1/72 Minitanks together, and a huge table for the game; this was going to be one of the really Big Shows, and he wanted to do it up right. I was the yanks, and Tom was the Krauts. One added wrinkle was that there would be an air battle fought over the table, so there were extra players at a seperate table in another room.

My objective was to relieve the paratroopers at Bastonge; this was set during the Battle of the Bulge, and I was Patton and his Third Army come to save the day. Tom's objective was to stop me. I had to get most of my force off the table, or I'd have failed; I had a full, and I do mean fully modeled, armored regimental combat team to work with. Gronan set up the table as a nasty killing field, with all sorts of lovely spots for ambushes. The Pink Tree was off in the 'upper right' corner of the table.

First turn, my recon jeep drives up the road, and Tom lets loose with his 88 - waaay overkill, and he misses. Second turn of the game, 60 (sixty) Sherman tanks roll onto the board, and I cut loose with a rolling barrage that cleans off all of the cover and camo from the Krauts. Sure, they shoot back, but I have a platoon of tank destroyers up on a hill that wipes out anything that is shooting at us. The Luftwaffe attacks, and Gronan gets writer's cramp counting all the .50 cal heavy machine guns firing at them - every US vehicle had one, and I am using them the way that they were intended to be used. The Luftwaffe gets turned into metal confetti, and that's that.

Eventually, the battle winds down because there are no more Germans with weapons shooting at us. Gronan announces that I've won the battle, but lost the game, because I have lost more then half my force during the fight. All true, I observed; legend has it that a sneer crossed my lips and a cruel laugh interrupted Tom's victory dance, as...

I brought in from the other room the reserves I had kept out of the battle, which amounted to twice the force I had fought the battle with.

The 'victory conditions' had been to get 2/3rds of my force off the table at the end of the game; a US  combat team had three combat units, so I fought the fight with just the one. The other two rolled on to Bastonge, and that was that. The look on Gronan's face was priceless; it was one of the very few times I have ever seen him struck speechless.

Later, at the pizza place, one of the gamers asked why this was such a big deal, as I had a poor reputation as a miniatures gamer because I rarely fought battles out to the bitter end. Gronan looked at the guy over his beer, and said...

"Listen and learn. Chirine doesn't fight battles as if they are one-offs; he fights all of his games as if they are part of a campaign. Sure, you can win today's battle, but what about tomorrow? He may have left the battlefield when things weren't going his way, but he and his army will be back tomorrow to hit you again. And he'll keep doing that, over and over, until you haven't got anything left. He's lost his share of battles, but he's never lost a war. In the time you'd take to take a pee, today, he looked over the tactical situation, made both a winning tactical plan and a winnning operational plan, and carried them out to win both the game and the battle."

True. I'm not Bobby Lee; I'm Sam Grant. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 07, 2016, 10:12:25 AM
I have only one thing to add to Chirine's tale.

I'm the bugger what organized all our Minitank forces, and as a model builder I had at the very least painted and decaled all the tanks.  With correct markings.  We had enough of the damn things to have three or four different German paint schemes from Panzer Grey to ambush camoflage and US tanks with and without sandbags, etc.  Plus entire forces in whitewash for winter.

So I **KNEW** that he had really held out 2/3 of his force, because the regimental and company markings matched.  I know Chirine wouldn't cheat, but the Internet is full of skeptics.

He did it honestly, my children.

Read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest, as we said in Seminary.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on January 07, 2016, 11:08:15 AM
How many Ssu are there? Could the Ancients communicate with them? If they couldn't and the Ssu were always hostile, why did they leave them alive? How do they communicate with the Hluss? If they can't communicate with humans, how does the Zu'ur trade work?

With regards to Temples, internationally speaking are the foreign branches of a Temple independent? For example, does a Temple of Vimuhla in N'luss acknowledge the High Priest back in Avanthar as their leader or are they, to borrow the Glorious General's style, The Vimuhla Temple of N'Luss- Reformed, or some such thing? Given that so many Temples appear to be tied so close to the Petal Throne, it would seem that foreign pulpits would be in danger of being politicized against the local government.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;872337
Say what? Run that one past me again, Glorious General? I think I just boggled. :eek:

I have seen many people be dismissive of historicals but to say that they are not wargames? My gast is flabbered.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: TheShadow on January 07, 2016, 11:15:46 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;872338

The Ssu speak in what sounds like wind-chimes, and humans do not understand it.


The "chimes" (and the "odour of musty cinnamon") are genius touches of imagination. Can you imagine something like that in the mind of a Hollywood scriptwriter? No way. The Ssu would just roar and growl like any other "scary" screen creature.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 07, 2016, 02:29:30 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;872362
I have only one thing to add to Chirine's tale.

So I **KNEW** that he had really held out 2/3 of his force, because the regimental and company markings matched.  I know Chirine wouldn't cheat, but the Internet is full of skeptics.

He did it honestly, my children.

Read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest, as we said in Seminary.


Agreed; you could see it in his face throughout the entire game - he did indeed know that I was fighting the battle short-handed. He kept giving me funny looks, waiting to see me pull the rabbit out of the hat.

What got him was the difference between knowing something intellectually, and feeling it emotionally. He knew something was going to happen, and it happened when I plopped the boxes full of stuff in front of him at the end of the game. That golden moment, which I was - and still am very happy to have given him - was one of the instances when the referee / GM sees that the whole thing has been worth it and all the hard work and effort has paid off.

We were lucky. We had a lot of those moments.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 07, 2016, 02:34:16 PM
Yep.

:eek:

:D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 07, 2016, 02:41:48 PM
[From Big Andy:]How many Ssu are there? Could the Ancients communicate with them? If they couldn't and the Ssu were always hostile, why did they leave them alive? How do they communicate with the Hluss? If they can't communicate with humans, how does the Zu'ur trade work?

We don't know, really. Enough to survive all this time, but not enough to wipe us humans out.

Not that I am aware of, but I'm sure that they could (machines, etc.) They were kept as 'curiosities' on their reservations, to amuse the Lords of Humanspace. "Oh, look! See the quaint natives, honey! Aren't they cute!"

No idea. They do seem to, though.

The Hlyss run the Zu'ur traffic, through silent trade. Humans leave stuff the Hlyss want on the beach, and the Hlyss leave the drugs in trade.


With regards to Temples, internationally speaking are the foreign branches of a Temple independent? For example, does a Temple of Vimuhla in N'luss acknowledge the High Priest back in Avanthar as their leader or are they, to borrow the Glorious General's style, The Vimuhla Temple of N'Luss- Reformed, or some such thing? Given that so many Temples appear to be tied so close to the Petal Throne, it would seem that foreign pulpits would be in danger of being politicized against the local government.

Each of the Temples is 'loyal' to the nearest government, usually to the one with the most troops nearest the temple. Keep in mind that the Temples are independent from the governments - there is no 'leader back in Avanthar'. (The Temple of Vimuhla holds that the High Priest of the First Temple out in the Chakas is 'first amongst equals', and is the head of the Council when and if it meets.) In this particular case, the temples in Mu'uglavya make sure to support the state there, just like the ones in Tsolyanu support the Imperium. However, the central governments are quite aware that all of the temples have their own political agendas, and would be more then willing to start up their own theocratic states if they had the chance. Hence the secret police agencies all over the place; everybody is watched, all the time.

[Edit: I'm going to add a little bit, here. None of the various organizations on Tekumel are monolithic. All of them have factions, sects, secret societies, and power groups all seeking to advance a particular agenda. This interplay makes for a lot of adventures...]

Only the Nyemesel Isles has a 'state religion', as the place is a true theocracy.

I have seen many people be dismissive of historicals but to say that they are not wargames? My gast is flabbered.

Me, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 07, 2016, 02:43:47 PM
Quote from: The_Shadow;872370
The "chimes" (and the "odour of musty cinnamon") are genius touches of imagination. Can you imagine something like that in the mind of a Hollywood scriptwriter? No way. The Ssu would just roar and growl like any other "scary" screen creature.


Agreed. See Phil's love of the common tropes in 1940s and 1950s pulp and F/SF; I think that's where he got a lot of his inspirations... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 07, 2016, 02:50:36 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;872395
Yep.

:eek:

:D


Precisely. And that's why we games the way we did. And had the fun we did. IMHO, of course... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 07, 2016, 04:15:55 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;872397
Agreed. See Phil's love of the common tropes in 1940s and 1950s pulp and F/SF; I think that's where he got a lot of his inspirations... :)


This morning around 4:35am before heading out to work, I listened to wind chimes(metal and bamboo) on Youtube. That combined with a nice mixture of 3parts cinnamon/1part nutmeg(used to flavor my coffee made in an Italian Coffee Pot)creeped me out(it was still dark outside)!!!

It's going to be fun one day to use props(wind chimes and my cinnamon mixture) to mess with my kids!!!

H ;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 07, 2016, 04:34:18 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;872396
[From Big Andy:]How many Ssu are there? Could the Ancients communicate with them? If they couldn't and the Ssu were always hostile, why did they leave them alive? How do they communicate with the Hluss? If they can't communicate with humans, how does the Zu'ur trade work?

We don't know, really. Enough to survive all this time, but not enough to wipe us humans out.

Not that I am aware of, but I'm sure that they could (machines, etc.) They were kept as 'curiosities' on their reservations, to amuse the Lords of Humanspace. "Oh, look! See the quaint natives, honey! Aren't they cute!"

No idea. They do seem to, though.

The Hlyss run the Zu'ur traffic, through silent trade. Humans leave stuff the Hlyss want on the beach, and the Hlyss leave the drugs in trade.


With regards to Temples, internationally speaking are the foreign branches of a Temple independent? For example, does a Temple of Vimuhla in N'luss acknowledge the High Priest back in Avanthar as their leader or are they, to borrow the Glorious General's style, The Vimuhla Temple of N'Luss- Reformed, or some such thing? Given that so many Temples appear to be tied so close to the Petal Throne, it would seem that foreign pulpits would be in danger of being politicized against the local government.

Each of the Temples is 'loyal' to the nearest government, usually to the one with the most troops nearest the temple. Keep in mind that the Temples are independent from the governments - there is no 'leader back in Avanthar'. (The Temple of Vimuhla holds that the High Priest of the First Temple out in the Chakas is 'first amongst equals', and is the head of the Council when and if it meets.) In this particular case, the temples in Mu'uglavya make sure to support the state there, just like the ones in Tsolyanu support the Imperium. However, the central governments are quite aware that all of the temples have their own political agendas, and would be more then willing to start up their own theocratic states if they had the chance. Hence the secret police agencies all over the place; everybody is watched, all the time.

[Edit: I'm going to add a little bit, here. None of the various organizations on Tekumel are monolithic. All of them have factions, sects, secret societies, and power groups all seeking to advance a particular agenda. This interplay makes for a lot of adventures...]

Only the Nyemesel Isles has a 'state religion', as the place is a true theocracy.

I have seen many people be dismissive of historicals but to say that they are not wargames? My gast is flabbered.

Me, too.


Question about Hluss Hive ships...How big are they? Are there different types/classes of ship? How many Hluss can they carry? Are they always armed with lightning bringers? What makes those suckers move? When you hear that low humming sound pay attention...

Thanks,

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on January 07, 2016, 09:42:01 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;872396

The Hlyss run the Zu'ur traffic, through silent trade. Humans leave stuff the Hlyss want on the beach, and the Hlyss leave the drugs in trade?

Each of the Temples is 'loyal' to the nearest government, usually to the one with the most troops nearest the temple. Keep in mind that the Temples are independent from the governments - there is no 'leader back in Avanthar'. (The Temple of Vimuhla holds that the High Priest of the First Temple out in the Chakas is 'first amongst equals', and is the head of the Council when and if it meets.) In this particular case, the temples in Mu'uglavya make sure to support the state there, just like the ones in Tsolyanu support the Imperium. However, the central governments are quite aware that all of the temples have their own political agendas, and would be more then willing to start up their own theocratic states if they had the chance. Hence the secret police agencies all over the place; everybody is watched, all the time.

How did they start the Zu'ur trade to begin with? And how do you know what a Hlyss wants?

The Temple hierarchy you describe really opens my eyes. My mistaken notion of the High Priest acting almost like a Tekumel Pope with leadership reaching across borders I got from the novels, where personages like Misenla seemed to be treated as such. Being more like Patriarchs makes things more complicated, and interesting.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 07, 2016, 11:40:41 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;872492
How did they start the Zu'ur trade to begin with? And how do you know what a Hlyss wants?

The Temple hierarchy you describe really opens my eyes. My mistaken notion of the High Priest acting almost like a Tekumel Pope with leadership reaching across borders I got from the novels, where personages like Misenla seemed to be treated as such. Being more like Patriarchs makes things more complicated, and interesting.

I was just reading a bit of the Blue Room Archives. It was a discussion about Ssu, Hluss, Hokun. All three are able to communicate with ease. Hokun are able to communicate with humans. Hokun seem to be trouble makers and behind many of the woes on Tekumel. I would not be suprised to see the Hokun playing both sides(Ssu/Hluss and Humans)against each other to suit their own needs.

Besides nobody likes those bugs...There are rumors about what they are doing to Humankind on the other side of the world.

Just some food for thought.

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 08, 2016, 12:19:46 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;872337
Say what? Run that one past me again, Glorious General? I think I just boggled. :eek:


As the saying goes, Montressor, "I can't make this shit up."

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=29455

And another place

http://odd74.proboards.com/thread/11503/definition-war-game

in which we discover a "war game" is different from a "strategy game."  Apparently, war does not have strategy in it.

Hmm, much suddenly becomes clear...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 08, 2016, 12:32:35 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;872393
Agreed; you could see it in his face throughout the entire game - he did indeed know that I was fighting the battle short-handed. He kept giving me funny looks, waiting to see me pull the rabbit out of the hat.

What got him was the difference between knowing something intellectually, and feeling it emotionally. He knew something was going to happen, and it happened when I plopped the boxes full of stuff in front of him at the end of the game. That golden moment, which I was - and still am very happy to have given him - was one of the instances when the referee / GM sees that the whole thing has been worth it and all the hard work and effort has paid off.

We were lucky. We had a lot of those moments.


Reluctantly, I must confess that I was caught totally flat footed.

You see, it was a BIG battle.  A HUGE battle.  We had moved together either four or six standard schoolroom folding tables, so we had something like a 7 x 12 foot battlefield.

Now, other than the overeager Germans using an 88 from a mile and a half away to shoot at a jeep (the single worst possible choice; even worse the woods were CRAWLING with German infantry, and every damn squad has an MG34!  One short burst and the poor lads in the jeep would have been done for.)  Anyway, other than that, the Germans were playing compentently... perhaps even well.

But Chirine, honestly, is a fucking brilliant tactician.

He excels at reading the terrain from the ENEMY point of view.  As in, "If I were the Germans and wanted to give me a nasty surprise, where would I put my weapons?"

Chirine is also the man who taught me about "bounding overwatch."  That is, while Element A moves Element B is watching likely attack zones, and vice versa.  So 3rd Platoon of Easy 8s is watching that woods there as one tank... ONLY one tank... from 1st Platoon zips out to those abandoned buildings.  If the lead tank makes it, the rest of 1 Platoon follows.  Et cetera.

So when 2 platoon moves its lead unit, 1 Platoon is watching the abandoned factory, and when the German tank pegs the lead tank of 2 Platoon, all 5 of 1 Platoon's Easy 8s open fire.

And because Chirine is very good indeed, 2 Platoon's tank moved in a way that made the Panther expose its turret side to 1 Platoon.  And at 400 yards an Easy 8s' 76 will punch through the side of a Panther's turret.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

The net effect, to summarize, is that Chirine and his subcommanders were giving the Germans one hell of a shellacking.  As in, the Germans were losing a tank for virtually every American tank they knocked out.  I've never seen anything like it, and I had simply subconsciously assumed that the Americans were taking the usual 3:1 or so losses.

So when Chirine said "That's why I've kept my reserves over here" and popped the boxes open, my jaw hit the floor.  Too bad digital cameras weren't around yet, my expression must have been pretty choice.

On the other hand, I'm happy to know that the memory of the look on my face still keeps you warm at night.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on January 08, 2016, 04:02:25 AM
It's been interesting reading the asides about miniatures gaming in the old days from the General and Chirine. As a long time miniatures gamer (as well as RPG'er) I can empathise with their points.

I was once playing in a Vietnam wargame in the early 80's being run by Paddy Griffiths (that Paddy Griffiths) and was accused of being a ringer who had taken the Platoon Commanders course at Sandhurst (British West Point) due to my tactical handling of the US Grunts. I pointed out to Paddy that I'd learned my tactics from the WW2 Infantry manuals available to my Cadet Force at school (sort of OTC for teens) in the later 60's and not from being in the British Army. So even professionals (Paddy was then a lecturer at Sandhurst) can be fooled by applying hard won knowledge learned from books.

Nigel
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 08, 2016, 10:21:59 AM
Well done, that lad!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 08, 2016, 01:46:40 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;872414
This morning around 4:35am before heading out to work, I listened to wind chimes(metal and bamboo) on Youtube. That combined with a nice mixture of 3parts cinnamon/1part nutmeg(used to flavor my coffee made in an Italian Coffee Pot)creeped me out(it was still dark outside)!!!

It's going to be fun one day to use props(wind chimes and my cinnamon mixture) to mess with my kids!!!

H ;0)


:) Welcome to the universe I've inhabited for forty years. :)

Out on my front steps, I have a set of metal wind chimes hanging up next to a set of bamboo ones a friend brought back from Bali. When the wind blows, as can hear what it's like in Fasiltum, The City Of The Chiming Skulls... :)

(Jaisalmer, in the Thar desert. It's been a delight, following Phil's footsteps...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 08, 2016, 01:56:20 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;872419
Question about Hluss Hive ships...How big are they? Are there different types/classes of ship? How many Hluss can they carry? Are they always armed with lightning bringers? What makes those suckers move? When you hear that low humming sound pay attention...

Thanks,

H :0)


They do come in different sizes, ranging from the 'small' ones with about 75 Hlyss - these are not nest-ships, from what we saw - to the big ones with 200 - 250 Hlyss on board. These are nest ships, with a 'queen' aboard, and are massive confections like sea-going forts. There are usually a high proportion of the 'warrior caste', with smaller numbers of the 'neuter worker caste' as the 'deck crew'.

Only the really big ones have lightning bringers, thankfully. The vast majority of them have torsion artillery, both a few big stone-throwers for dealing with the sea life of Tekumel, and lots of bolt-throwers as lighter weapons for dealing with lesser threats.

Remember, their goal is to board your ship and take you alive, so they can implant the hive queen's eggs in you. The eggs hatch, and you get to be the living lunch while the little dears grow and eat you from the inside out.

As near as anybody can tell, they are moved around by sorcery; it's a form of the 'lifting' spells and the Eyes that do the same thing. You need live Hlyss sorcerers to do it, though; nothing that we can use.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 08, 2016, 02:06:50 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;872492
How did they start the Zu'ur trade to begin with? And how do you know what a Hlyss wants?

The Temple hierarchy you describe really opens my eyes. My mistaken notion of the High Priest acting almost like a Tekumel Pope with leadership reaching across borders I got from the novels, where personages like Misenla seemed to be treated as such. Being more like Patriarchs makes things more complicated, and interesting.


No idea; it was first reported in "The Dragon" in 1975. As for trade, you put a variety of stuff out on the beach, and they select what they want; you put out more, they put out more, and you work out what each wants.

Did this up on Lake Parunal, with the Nyagga; it does work.

You have it; some of the High Priests and Priestesses, like Lady Misenla, have a higher status due to their place / appointment, but none of the Twenty has a 'supreme high pontiff' who commands the entire temple. It's very much more like the Eastern Orthodox system, where each of the associated churches have a Patriarch in charge of that church - some of them have a high status, dating back to both apostolic succession and closeness to the Byzantine Imperium. As an example, the current Patriarch of Constantinople has a very high status, but no real power; the Patriarch of Moscow has a slightly lower status, but much more power.

In practice, the temples of the Twenty are pretty unified in external matters, but very un-unified internally. It does make for a lot more adventures, of course, which is the whole idea... :)

You always treat people like Misenla with great respect, of course. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 08, 2016, 02:09:48 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;872513
I was just reading a bit of the Blue Room Archives. It was a discussion about Ssu, Hluss, Hokun. All three are able to communicate with ease. Hokun are able to communicate with humans. Hokun seem to be trouble makers and behind many of the woes on Tekumel. I would not be suprised to see the Hokun playing both sides(Ssu/Hluss and Humans)against each other to suit their own needs.

Besides nobody likes those bugs...There are rumors about what they are doing to Humankind on the other side of the world.

Just some food for thought.

H :0)


Yep; they can all talk to each other, but only the Hokun talk to us humans. And you can't trust the glass praying mantis crowd as far as you can throw them. Not surprising; the Hokun paid for the planet to be terra-formed (I have a copy of the receipt for the work) and so they think it's all theirs...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 08, 2016, 02:13:57 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;872516
As the saying goes, Montressor, "I can't make this shit up."

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=29455

And another place

http://odd74.proboards.com/thread/11503/definition-war-game

in which we discover a "war game" is different from a "strategy game."  Apparently, war does not have strategy in it.

Hmm, much suddenly becomes clear...


I read through these last night when I got home, and had to lie down. I mean, everybody has a different play style and preferences, but what I saw was a world totally alien to my own, and nothing like the gaming we did, back in the day.

As I've remarked before, there wasn't the huge 'genre chasm' back then. We tended to play everything, and didn't have such marked divisions between 'wargames' and other forms of gaming.

Wow. Amazing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 08, 2016, 02:17:09 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;872517
Reluctantly, I must confess that I was caught totally flat footed.

You see, it was a BIG battle.  A HUGE battle.  We had moved together either four or six standard schoolroom folding tables, so we had something like a 7 x 12 foot battlefield.

Now, other than the overeager Germans using an 88 from a mile and a half away to shoot at a jeep (the single worst possible choice; even worse the woods were CRAWLING with German infantry, and every damn squad has an MG34!  One short burst and the poor lads in the jeep would have been done for.)  Anyway, other than that, the Germans were playing compentently... perhaps even well.

But Chirine, honestly, is a fucking brilliant tactician.

He excels at reading the terrain from the ENEMY point of view.  As in, "If I were the Germans and wanted to give me a nasty surprise, where would I put my weapons?"

Chirine is also the man who taught me about "bounding overwatch."  That is, while Element A moves Element B is watching likely attack zones, and vice versa.  So 3rd Platoon of Easy 8s is watching that woods there as one tank... ONLY one tank... from 1st Platoon zips out to those abandoned buildings.  If the lead tank makes it, the rest of 1 Platoon follows.  Et cetera.

So when 2 platoon moves its lead unit, 1 Platoon is watching the abandoned factory, and when the German tank pegs the lead tank of 2 Platoon, all 5 of 1 Platoon's Easy 8s open fire.

And because Chirine is very good indeed, 2 Platoon's tank moved in a way that made the Panther expose its turret side to 1 Platoon.  And at 400 yards an Easy 8s' 76 will punch through the side of a Panther's turret.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

The net effect, to summarize, is that Chirine and his subcommanders were giving the Germans one hell of a shellacking.  As in, the Germans were losing a tank for virtually every American tank they knocked out.  I've never seen anything like it, and I had simply subconsciously assumed that the Americans were taking the usual 3:1 or so losses.

So when Chirine said "That's why I've kept my reserves over here" and popped the boxes open, my jaw hit the floor.  Too bad digital cameras weren't around yet, my expression must have been pretty choice.

On the other hand, I'm happy to know that the memory of the look on my face still keeps you warm at night.


Thank you for the kind words! I just think before I do.

We did the same kind of tactics in Phil's campaign. Look, think, act. It saved out butts on a regular basis.

And yes, I am still very pleased that I could give you a surprise; it made for a truly great game! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 08, 2016, 02:19:30 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;872533
It's been interesting reading the asides about miniatures gaming in the old days from the General and Chirine. As a long time miniatures gamer (as well as RPG'er) I can empathise with their points.

I was once playing in a Vietnam wargame in the early 80's being run by Paddy Griffiths (that Paddy Griffiths) and was accused of being a ringer who had taken the Platoon Commanders course at Sandhurst (British West Point) due to my tactical handling of the US Grunts. I pointed out to Paddy that I'd learned my tactics from the WW2 Infantry manuals available to my Cadet Force at school (sort of OTC for teens) in the later 60's and not from being in the British Army. So even professionals (Paddy was then a lecturer at Sandhurst) can be fooled by applying hard won knowledge learned from books.

Nigel


Agreed. I learned my lessons at Ft. Knox, in the summer of 1976. "Aint't nobody ever snuck up on nobody with a tank platoon..." :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 09, 2016, 01:19:29 AM
Chirine is being modest.

Notice the account; he had to exit with 2/3 of his forces intact.  So, he set 2/3 of his force aside as a reserve.

That means he fought the battle with 1/3 of his force.

And had enough of it left that I was wondering if he had 2/3 of it left... 2/3 of the 1/3 he fought the battle with!

He went up against German armor in a prepared defensive position, and inflicted casualties as heavy as he took; in other words, he destroyed a German tank for every American tank lost.

Against a German army in a prepared defensive position.

You simply don't DO that.

Your Uncle Chirine is one of the best, my children.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 09, 2016, 02:02:50 AM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;872533
It's been interesting reading the asides about miniatures gaming in the old days from the General and Chirine. As a long time miniatures gamer (as well as RPG'er) I can empathise with their points.

I was once playing in a Vietnam wargame in the early 80's being run by Paddy Griffiths (that Paddy Griffiths) and was accused of being a ringer who had taken the Platoon Commanders course at Sandhurst (British West Point) due to my tactical handling of the US Grunts. I pointed out to Paddy that I'd learned my tactics from the WW2 Infantry manuals available to my Cadet Force at school (sort of OTC for teens) in the later 60's and not from being in the British Army. So even professionals (Paddy was then a lecturer at Sandhurst) can be fooled by applying hard won knowledge learned from books.

Nigel


I wanted to revisit this, if that's all right. I think there's a very, very good point made here about learning from books and texts. Back when I first started playing pike-and-shot games, I got a facsimile copy of "Pallas armata, Military essayes of the ancient Grecian, Roman, and modern art of war vvritten in the years 1670 and 1671" by Sir James Turner, Knight. I learned from that volume how to handle troops in period - and it also was my guidebook for being the Glorious General's staff officer. Likewise all of the other periods I've played in - and for Tekumel, too. I built up my library to provide the best possible information I could, and I think paid off over the years.

Great point - thank you!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 09, 2016, 02:08:46 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;872671
Chirine is being modest.

Notice the account; he had to exit with 2/3 of his forces intact.  So, he set 2/3 of his force aside as a reserve.

That means he fought the battle with 1/3 of his force.

And had enough of it left that I was wondering if he had 2/3 of it left... 2/3 of the 1/3 he fought the battle with!

He went up against German armor in a prepared defensive position, and inflicted casualties as heavy as he took; in other words, he destroyed a German tank for every American tank lost.

Against a German army in a prepared defensive position.

You simply don't DO that.

Your Uncle Chirine is one of the best, my children.


Well, all right, if you say so. It's very kind of you to say all this, Glorious General; I think I just do what needs to be done.

You gave me a pretty clear mission and objective for this game, and I set my forces up to carry out that mission. I fought my battle with what I had; I think that this has always been my gift, whether in a miniatures game or keeping Tekumel afloat for so many years. I take what resources we have available, assemble them into a useable format, and then just get on with it. I don't sit on my hands, moaning about how somebody should do it for me.

I have to say you are probably right; I am pretty good at what I do, I guess. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on January 09, 2016, 04:28:41 AM
Another thing that helps if you are doing a lot of miniatures gaming is the equivalent to the Staff Ride of the German Staff. Visit and walk over all the battlefields you can with a description of the battle in hand. That way you can usually understand why decision were made from the options available. Through the 70's I did most of the English Civil War battles that happened in the south of England on that basis plus Waterloo. Going further back is not necessarily useful as fields and woods can have changed over the years very easily. The Enclosure Acts after 1604 did much to put previously Common Land into private ownership thus changing some aspects of the battlefields of England. When I lived in Virginia I tried to do as many of the ACW battlefields on the same basis as I could. I didn't manage very many of the Revolutionary War battlefields as I would have liked but dragging the wife around fields was not always appreciated by her.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 09, 2016, 11:58:17 AM
The thread got far without me, and I'm not going to go back for once and comment on everything. Besides, other people have already said what I would have said:).

BTW, Gronan, that story tells of an impressive win. I assume the German tanks had at least some stat advantage against US tanks under the rules?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;872674
I wanted to revisit this, if that's all right. I think there's a very, very good point made here about learning from books and texts. Back when I first started playing pike-and-shot games, I got a facsimile copy of "Pallas armata, Military essayes of the ancient Grecian, Roman, and modern art of war vvritten in the years 1670 and 1671" by Sir James Turner, Knight. I learned from that volume how to handle troops in period - and it also was my guidebook for being the Glorious General's staff officer. Likewise all of the other periods I've played in - and for Tekumel, too. I built up my library to provide the best possible information I could, and I think paid off over the years.

Great point - thank you!!! :)
Heh, congratulations on that!

(In the spirit of sharing sources, I'll note that my own tactics have always been based on what little I've been able to understand and apply by the treaties of Sir Basil Liddle-Hart, Sun Tzu, Wu Tzu, Sun Bing, Von Klausewitz, and whatever I've been able to find translated from Bansenshukai. I don't think I have nearly as impressive wins, though).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;872675
Well, all right, if you say so. It's very kind of you to say all this, Glorious General; I think I just do what needs to be done.

You gave me a pretty clear mission and objective for this game, and I set my forces up to carry out that mission. I fought my battle with what I had; I think that this has always been my gift, whether in a miniatures game or keeping Tekumel afloat for so many years. I take what resources we have available, assemble them into a useable format, and then just get on with it. I don't sit on my hands, moaning about how somebody should do it for me.

I have to say you are probably right; I am pretty good at what I do, I guess. :)

If only more players could learn that;)!


Me, I want to ask you something about climate. What would "winter" be in Tekumel? Is there a non-active part of the year? (I'd expect people not working in the hottest months, instead, and only going out at night, unless it can't be helped).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 09, 2016, 12:16:24 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;872722
The thread got far without me, and I'm not going to go back for once and comment on everything. Besides, other people have already said what I would have said:).

BTW, Gronan, that story tells of an impressive win. I assume the German tanks had at least some stat advantage against US tanks under the rules?


Good question, Eager Young Space Cadet.

First, as a general rule of thumb, the defense has approximately a 3:1 advantage in most circumstances in most periods.

Secondly, yes, the German tanks had a substantial technical advantage.  By this time even Mark IVs had a long 75 mm gun; though they weren't heavily armored by any means, this means that they could knock out a Sherman with a 75mm gun at a range farther away than the Sherman could counter, and they were pretty much even-up with Sherman with the improved 76mm gun.

The Panther is just plain nasty; sloped armor makes it tough to kill from the front even for the Sherman 76mm, and the Panther's 75/L70 actually had better penetration than the Tiger I's 88; the Panther will open a Sherman up like a can of sardines at any range it can see it, and even a 76mm gun Sherman needs to get fairly close to have a chance from the front.  A 75mm Sherman ain't doing squat from the front and needs to be within 500 yards or so from the flank, which is getting pretty darn close.

One on one the German tanks were better, and when you add in the advantage of prepared defensive positions the usual kill ratio is about 2:1 or 3:1.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/405605510169170013/

And Chirine's point about "stop whining and fight the battle" is dead on too.

EDIT:  To clarify, the rules reflect this.  ANY historical war game should reflect the capabilities of the units involved.  Treating the Sherman and the Panther identically would be like treating a guy in leather armor and hand axe the same as a guy in plate armor and bastard sword.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 09, 2016, 06:39:28 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;872685
Another thing that helps if you are doing a lot of miniatures gaming is the equivalent to the Staff Ride of the German Staff. Visit and walk over all the battlefields you can with a description of the battle in hand. That way you can usually understand why decision were made from the options available. Through the 70's I did most of the English Civil War battles that happened in the south of England on that basis plus Waterloo. Going further back is not necessarily useful as fields and woods can have changed over the years very easily. The Enclosure Acts after 1604 did much to put previously Common Land into private ownership thus changing some aspects of the battlefields of England. When I lived in Virginia I tried to do as many of the ACW battlefields on the same basis as I could. I didn't manage very many of the Revolutionary War battlefields as I would have liked but dragging the wife around fields was not always appreciated by her.


Agreed - very strongly! Wandering around Harlech Castle was one such moment; standing at the foot of that long, long slope and looking up at the Union position at The Angle was another - and it was a hot summer day, as well, so I got a very strong feeling of 'place'. Fort Ticonderoga, and the Castilio de San Marcos, too. Walking through Cirencester, in the footsteps of Prince Rupert, I got a real lesson in how much of a pain in the tush it must have been moving formed bodies of troops through those narrow streets.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 09, 2016, 06:50:13 PM
[From AsenRG:]
BTW, Gronan, that story tells of an impressive win. I assume the German tanks had at least some stat advantage against US tanks under the rules?

The rules didn't enter into it, although "Tractics" is a very good set indeed. Historically, WWII German armor and weapons systems enjoyed a normal 5:1 advantage over Allied equipment; in Normandy, for example, it was considered 'normal wastage' for Allied tank formations to lose a platoon of four or five tanks for every one German tank destroyed. The infantry was just as good; see also Dupuy and Dupuy, where they came to the very unpleasant conclusion (based on the evidence) that each German soldier three times more combat-effective then one US or UK soldier - and almost 200 time more effective then a Soviet soldier.

So, yeah, I guess that was a pretty impressive win to that fight.

In the spirit of sharing sources, I'll note that my own tactics have always been based on what little I've been able to understand and apply by the treaties of Sir Basil Liddle-Hart, Sun Tzu, Wu Tzu, Sun Bing, Von Klausewitz, and whatever I've been able to find translated from Bansenshukai. I don't think I have nearly as impressive wins, though.

Try the Griffith translation and commentary of the Sun Tzu Ping Fa; he's a US Marine general, and has a fascinating perspective on the book.

Practice. Just practice. I've been at this for a while. :)

Me, I want to ask you something about climate. What would "winter" be in Tekumel? Is there a non-active part of the year? (I'd expect people not working in the hottest months, instead, and only going out at night, unless it can't be helped).

You have it quite well, actually. Summers are torrid, and nobody really tries to do much of anything - it's the dry season, in most areas. Winters are much nicer and cooler, and are also often the 'wet' or 'monsoon' season. Think India or Southeast Asia, and you can't go far wrong.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 09, 2016, 07:09:46 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;872725

And Chirine's point about "stop whining and fight the battle" is dead on too.

EDIT:  To clarify, the rules reflect this.  ANY historical war game should reflect the capabilities of the units involved.  Treating the Sherman and the Panther identically would be like treating a guy in leather armor and hand axe the same as a guy in plate armor and bastard sword.


Yep. I fought the battle - not that I don;t say, 'played the game', at what at best was a 3:1 disadvantage, and at worst maybe a 9:1 to 15:1 disadvantage. It all depended on how you crunched the numbers.

I didn't crunch the numbers. I was a US armored regiment commander, given the task of getting help to the besieged paratroopers up the road. Give that mission, I fought the battle the bast way I knew how, with what I had to hand. I used my forces the way Lesey McNair had designed them to fight the Germans, and the enemy was kind enough to stand there with their mouths hanging open while I did what the American Army did best in WWII - smother them in massive amounts of firepower, and kill them.

Please read that second sentence again, if you would:

"I was a US armored regiment commander"

Yes, you guessed it. I was role-playing. I had 'immersion'; I was standing on a crummy little road in Belgium, freezing my butt off, and up to my ankles in cold wet mud. So, yes, I had 'immersion', all right; that's what we all did, back in those days - we got into our roles as the people we were playing, no matter what the game and setting might be. My two air commanders, who fought the air combat side of this game, were your typical swaggering 'fifty-mission crush' types and did their jobs with speed and dispatch; the Luftwaffe never know what hit them.

We did this out at Phil's too. After the Castle Tilketl campaign, Gronan mourned the loss of each and every one of his troopers that had gotten killed carrying out the mission he'd been given. The campaign had been a howling success, restoring strategic fluidity to the stalled Northwest Frontier campaign, and he got a medal and a promotion. He still felt terrible about the casualties he'd taken, and it took him several weeks - both in real time and in game time - to get over the losses.

That's what we thought was 'wargaming', and 'role-playing', back then.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 09, 2016, 07:49:41 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;872675

I have to say you are probably right; I am pretty good at what I do, I guess. :)

Let me say that from what I've read of To Serve The Petal Throne really gave me insight into Chirine baKal. Those adventures really impressed me. I felt like I was reading a pulp era Sword and Sorcery tale. Ingenious solutions to problems. Sometimes so simple it blew me away. The humor and smoothness of Lord Chirine is classic. A true Hero of the Age worthy of having songs sung in his honor. Uncle a hundred thanks for an eye opening experience.



More questions coming...Thanks.

H :0)

PS Thanks to The Glorious General and all who have helped make this thread a pleasure to read. So much to learn, so little time.

PSS Keep writing Uncle...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 09, 2016, 07:54:55 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;872768
[From AsenRG:]
BTW, Gronan, that story tells of an impressive win. I assume the German tanks had at least some stat advantage against US tanks under the rules?

The rules didn't enter into it, although "Tractics" is a very good set indeed.


I think for Asen's sake, not being familiar with the game, I'd add that TRACTICS uses historical gun and armor data.  Thus if the Sherman gun "using the M62 APC round, the 76mm gun penetrated 109 mm (4.3 in) of armor at 1,000 m (3,300 ft)," that was incorporated into Tractics.  Cumbersome I admit; there were 5 range bands from Point Blank to Extreme, and three sub bands within each band, each with a penetration number.  And EVERY tank had a full set of armor data.  Suspension armor and hull flank armor were not necessarily the same, never mind the turret and which way is the turret facing!  And is the tank angled to you so that there is some horizontal slope to the armor as well as the vertical?

That's why I was so busy during the game as referee.  But the good news is it gives you a damn good simulation of what happens when the tungsten hits the steel.

It also shows why, at Gary Con, Tractics author Mike Reese runs a game where there are fewer than 10 vehicles total on the board.  No dummy, he.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 10, 2016, 02:02:38 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;872782
Let me say that from what I've read of To Serve The Petal Throne really gave me insight into Chirine baKal. Those adventures really impressed me. I felt like I was reading a pulp era Sword and Sorcery tale. Ingenious solutions to problems. Sometimes so simple it blew me away. The humor and smoothness of Lord Chirine is classic. A true Hero of the Age worthy of having songs sung in his honor. Uncle a hundred thanks for an eye opening experience.

More questions coming...Thanks.

PS Thanks to The Glorious General and all who have helped make this thread a pleasure to read. So much to learn, so little time.

PSS Keep writing Uncle...


Thank you for your very kind words! What I'm trying to do with my book is take you to a time and place that we inhabited for a while, and what we did while we were there. Playing with those 'first generation guys' was a heck of an introduction to a style and method like nothing I'd ever seen before - you had to get really good really fast!

And thank you for the shout-out to the pulps. Phil grew up with them, and they really influenced his creation and the writing he did set in it. He did a lot of 'pulp stuff' in his games, and they were some of the very best adventures we ever had - I'm trying to capture that feel for you, and give you some sense of the sheer fun we had.

Chirine is, all things considered, a decent guy who's trying to do the best job he can in a difficult world. He's been a friend, for some forty years, and I'm very glad to have the chance to be able to tell you about him and the people he has in his life.

And yes, I have added some 4,000 words this past week, I am now up to something like 122,000... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 10, 2016, 02:08:00 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;872784
I think for Asen's sake, not being familiar with the game, I'd add that TRACTICS uses historical gun and armor data.  Thus if the Sherman gun "using the M62 APC round, the 76mm gun penetrated 109 mm (4.3 in) of armor at 1,000 m (3,300 ft)," that was incorporated into Tractics.  Cumbersome I admit; there were 5 range bands from Point Blank to Extreme, and three sub bands within each band, each with a penetration number.  And EVERY tank had a full set of armor data.  Suspension armor and hull flank armor were not necessarily the same, never mind the turret and which way is the turret facing!  And is the tank angled to you so that there is some horizontal slope to the armor as well as the vertical?

That's why I was so busy during the game as referee.  But the good news is it gives you a damn good simulation of what happens when the tungsten hits the steel.

It also shows why, at Gary Con, Tractics author Mike Reese runs a game where there are fewer than 10 vehicles total on the board.  No dummy, he.


This - what he said. "Tractics" is a very, very good simulation of WWII armored combat, and still holds up as well today as it did back then. For all I know, somebody has ported it over to a computer, which does all the number-crunching for the GM.

What I am hoping to be able to say is that all through this game, I never looked at the rules. After I got the movement rates off the reference sheet, I simply got on with the mission. That's why I think there's a difference between 'playing the game', which I was not doing, and 'fighting my battle', which I was.

We had, back then, a very different approach to our gaming, and I don't know if there's a good way to demonstrate or show that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 10, 2016, 02:55:49 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;872808
This - what he said. "Tractics" is a very, very good simulation of WWII armored combat, and still holds up as well today as it did back then. For all I know, somebody has ported it over to a computer, which does all the number-crunching for the GM.

What I am hoping to be able to say is that all through this game, I never looked at the rules. After I got the movement rates off the reference sheet, I simply got on with the mission. That's why I think there's a difference between 'playing the game', which I was not doing, and 'fighting my battle', which I was.

We had, back then, a very different approach to our gaming, and I don't know if there's a good way to demonstrate or show that.


Of course it helped that you'd also studied the period fairly extensively, including the books that Resse and Tucker used to create the rules, and gave the rest of us those books as well.

You didn't NEED to look at the rules, you knew damn well that a Panther was going to laugh at a 75mm gun Sherman.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 10, 2016, 03:18:27 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;872814
Of course it helped that you'd also studied the period fairly extensively, including the books that Resse and Tucker used to create the rules, and gave the rest of us those books as well.

You didn't NEED to look at the rules, you knew damn well that a Panther was going to laugh at a 75mm gun Sherman.


All very true, of course. I thought that if we were going to put in all that time and effort to run these games, it might be useful for us to know something about the thing. See also your extensive researches and practical work in medieval subjects - your work was every bit as thorough and detailed as Dave Arneson's was for his Age of Sail and ACW gaming. I did the same thing for my "Star Wars" campaign, and I think a lot of us did the same for particular game scenarios and settings that interested us.

Yeah, I knew from the set-up that I was in for it. I just rose to the occasion, I think.

You know, something that was said at the last Gary Con just struck me, when it was suggested that I put on another version of The Great Mos Eisley Spaceport Raid. You remarked, quite accurately, that that game was five years in the making, what with the collection and painting of all the miniatures I used; we both thought aloud that games like that might not be possible to stage, any more, due to the effort involved. And, quite frankly, from what I perceive to be a lack of interest in that kind of thing, anymore.

I'm not talking about a lack of miniatures - I can still supply a major game for a major battle set in Tekumel out of stock, for example - but a lack of interested players. I had a heck of a time getting anyone to come to the last (and it may very well be the last) Braunstein I did at FFG; people commented afterwards that while the game itself took over five hours to play, this wasn't a big problem as I told all sorts of entertaining stories about the early days of gaming.

My perception, based on what I see at the FLGS and the occasional convention, is that people seem to want short, fast games; a four-hour game is considered long, but then it also seems to be expected that the GM will use about a half-hour to brief in the players on the world setting and hand out the fact sheets and 'pre-gen' PC sheets.

I have a suspicion, Glorious General, that the days of the kind of 'generalist' gaming that you and I did are over and done with. I dunno; I hear lots of talk about 'recapturing the spirit' of the old days, but I haven't seen a lot of it on the ground...

Ah, well; we did have fun, didn't we? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 10, 2016, 05:17:43 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;872820
All very true, of course. I thought that if we were going to put in all that time and effort to run these games, it might be useful for us to know something about the thing. See also your extensive researches and practical work in medieval subjects - your work was every bit as thorough and detailed as Dave Arneson's was for his Age of Sail and ACW gaming. I did the same thing for my "Star Wars" campaign, and I think a lot of us did the same for particular game scenarios and settings that interested us.

Yeah, I knew from the set-up that I was in for it. I just rose to the occasion, I think.

You know, something that was said at the last Gary Con just struck me, when it was suggested that I put on another version of The Great Mos Eisley Spaceport Raid. You remarked, quite accurately, that that game was five years in the making, what with the collection and painting of all the miniatures I used; we both thought aloud that games like that might not be possible to stage, any more, due to the effort involved. And, quite frankly, from what I perceive to be a lack of interest in that kind of thing, anymore.

I'm not talking about a lack of miniatures - I can still supply a major game for a major battle set in Tekumel out of stock, for example - but a lack of interested players. I had a heck of a time getting anyone to come to the last (and it may very well be the last) Braunstein I did at FFG; people commented afterwards that while the game itself took over five hours to play, this wasn't a big problem as I told all sorts of entertaining stories about the early days of gaming.

My perception, based on what I see at the FLGS and the occasional convention, is that people seem to want short, fast games; a four-hour game is considered long, but then it also seems to be expected that the GM will use about a half-hour to brief in the players on the world setting and hand out the fact sheets and 'pre-gen' PC sheets.

I have a suspicion, Glorious General, that the days of the kind of 'generalist' gaming that you and I did are over and done with. I dunno; I hear lots of talk about 'recapturing the spirit' of the old days, but I haven't seen a lot of it on the ground...

Ah, well; we did have fun, didn't we? :)
Yes, there are games aimed specifically at one-shots, these days. Some of them are pretty good.
Then again, there are games aimed specifically at longer campaigns. The demand hasn't gone away. It's just that the market tries to accommodate both groups, because you know, it's a market. It wants everyone's money:D!
(Fun fact: one-shot RPGs are, from what I know, the rule in places like Japan. I think it says much more about the schedules of Japanese gamers being hard to coordinate, and/or about them consuming more "episode-based media" that they want to emulate, than it says about their dedication to the games).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;872725
Good question, Eager Young Space Cadet.

First, as a general rule of thumb, the defense has approximately a 3:1 advantage in most circumstances in most periods.

Secondly, yes, the German tanks had a substantial technical advantage.  By this time even Mark IVs had a long 75 mm gun; though they weren't heavily armored by any means, this means that they could knock out a Sherman with a 75mm gun at a range farther away than the Sherman could counter, and they were pretty much even-up with Sherman with the improved 76mm gun.

The Panther is just plain nasty; sloped armor makes it tough to kill from the front even for the Sherman 76mm, and the Panther's 75/L70 actually had better penetration than the Tiger I's 88; the Panther will open a Sherman up like a can of sardines at any range it can see it, and even a 76mm gun Sherman needs to get fairly close to have a chance from the front.  A 75mm Sherman ain't doing squat from the front and needs to be within 500 yards or so from the flank, which is getting pretty darn close.

One on one the German tanks were better, and when you add in the advantage of prepared defensive positions the usual kill ratio is about 2:1 or 3:1.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/405605510169170013/

And Chirine's point about "stop whining and fight the battle" is dead on too.

EDIT:  To clarify, the rules reflect this.  ANY historical war game should reflect the capabilities of the units involved.  Treating the Sherman and the Panther identically would be like treating a guy in leather armor and hand axe the same as a guy in plate armor and bastard sword.
Just a propos to your edit, there are games that treat those the same...:)
No, I don't understand the logic either.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;872784
I think for Asen's sake, not being familiar with the game, I'd add that TRACTICS uses historical gun and armor data.  Thus if the Sherman gun "using the M62 APC round, the 76mm gun penetrated 109 mm (4.3 in) of armor at 1,000 m (3,300 ft)," that was incorporated into Tractics.  Cumbersome I admit; there were 5 range bands from Point Blank to Extreme, and three sub bands within each band, each with a penetration number.  And EVERY tank had a full set of armor data.  Suspension armor and hull flank armor were not necessarily the same, never mind the turret and which way is the turret facing!  And is the tank angled to you so that there is some horizontal slope to the armor as well as the vertical?

That's why I was so busy during the game as referee.  But the good news is it gives you a damn good simulation of what happens when the tungsten hits the steel.

It also shows why, at Gary Con, Tractics author Mike Reese runs a game where there are fewer than 10 vehicles total on the board.  No dummy, he.
Wait. Wait. Wait!
So the first post was the mechanics?
...yeah, great. Now you made me want to play that. Or something similar for battles in Antiquity, if I'm dreaming anyway.
And I don't know anyone who has heard of it, even among wargamers...
(I suspect I might end up like I do with less-known systems: First I run them, and people play because it's on offer. Then I run them, and people want to play. Then people are running them, and if I'm lucky, I still want to play them).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;872774
Yep. I fought the battle - not that I don;t say, 'played the game', at what at best was a 3:1 disadvantage, and at worst maybe a 9:1 to 15:1 disadvantage. It all depended on how you crunched the numbers.

I didn't crunch the numbers. I was a US armored regiment commander, given the task of getting help to the besieged paratroopers up the road. Give that mission, I fought the battle the bast way I knew how, with what I had to hand. I used my forces the way Lesey McNair had designed them to fight the Germans, and the enemy was kind enough to stand there with their mouths hanging open while I did what the American Army did best in WWII - smother them in massive amounts of firepower, and kill them.

Please read that second sentence again, if you would:

"I was a US armored regiment commander"

Yes, you guessed it. I was role-playing. I had 'immersion'; I was standing on a crummy little road in Belgium, freezing my butt off, and up to my ankles in cold wet mud. So, yes, I had 'immersion', all right; that's what we all did, back in those days - we got into our roles as the people we were playing, no matter what the game and setting might be. My two air commanders, who fought the air combat side of this game, were your typical swaggering 'fifty-mission crush' types and did their jobs with speed and dispatch; the Luftwaffe never know what hit them.

We did this out at Phil's too. After the Castle Tilketl campaign, Gronan mourned the loss of each and every one of his troopers that had gotten killed carrying out the mission he'd been given. The campaign had been a howling success, restoring strategic fluidity to the stalled Northwest Frontier campaign, and he got a medal and a promotion. He still felt terrible about the casualties he'd taken, and it took him several weeks - both in real time and in game time - to get over the losses.

That's what we thought was 'wargaming', and 'role-playing', back then.
Well, I approve of your wargaming.
I can only say that I've never even seen it on a wargaming table around here. Well, that's actually wrong, I've seen it - the guy who did that was getting mocked by the other players for lamenting his troops, though.
It probably didn't help that this was a Warhammer game.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;872768
[From AsenRG:]
BTW, Gronan, that story tells of an impressive win. I assume the German tanks had at least some stat advantage against US tanks under the rules?

The rules didn't enter into it, although "Tractics" is a very good set indeed. Historically, WWII German armor and weapons systems enjoyed a normal 5:1 advantage over Allied equipment; in Normandy, for example, it was considered 'normal wastage' for Allied tank formations to lose a platoon of four or five tanks for every one German tank destroyed. The infantry was just as good; see also Dupuy and Dupuy, where they came to the very unpleasant conclusion (based on the evidence) that each German soldier three times more combat-effective then one US or UK soldier - and almost 200 time more effective then a Soviet soldier.

So, yeah, I guess that was a pretty impressive win to that fight.

In the spirit of sharing sources, I'll note that my own tactics have always been based on what little I've been able to understand and apply by the treaties of Sir Basil Liddle-Hart, Sun Tzu, Wu Tzu, Sun Bing, Von Klausewitz, and whatever I've been able to find translated from Bansenshukai. I don't think I have nearly as impressive wins, though.

Try the Griffith translation and commentary of the Sun Tzu Ping Fa; he's a US Marine general, and has a fascinating perspective on the book.

Practice. Just practice. I've been at this for a while. :)

Me, I want to ask you something about climate. What would "winter" be in Tekumel? Is there a non-active part of the year? (I'd expect people not working in the hottest months, instead, and only going out at night, unless it can't be helped).

You have it quite well, actually. Summers are torrid, and nobody really tries to do much of anything - it's the dry season, in most areas. Winters are much nicer and cooler, and are also often the 'wet' or 'monsoon' season. Think India or Southeast Asia, and you can't go far wrong.
Didn't Dupuy and Dupuy get to the conclusion that it was the German General Staff that was the deciding factor in that superiority, especially at infantry level? Sure, superior armour helped, but when you put instead of the German General Staff a wargamer, that's an advantage you should expect to suddenly evaporate (unless the other wargamer is a German General Staffer, but that's a particular, and I believe, not really popular case :)).

Now, defeating those tanks is still really impressive! I'm just wondering about Dupuy and Dupuy (which I admit I haven't read, just found a synopsis - and it didn't help making me interested, especially since he seems to base his research at individual level on comparing the German to the Swiss mercenaries...in battles where the German mercenaries were equipped according to the Swiss model. And based on this he proceeds to discard the individual level, which I find an unsupported conclusion).

I promise to practice, too! But it's hard to find opponents. Maybe I should look on Internet.

And lately, it might amuse you that this month's Open RPG Day in Sofia (it's a bi/tri-monthly event) has a "theme" for the games. The theme is "winter tales".
I'm planning to run Tekumel. "Winter tales" in Tekumel are going to be different from those in other places. Much busier time of the year, for one...



Both Gronan and Chirine: what do you think about that book?
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/139125/Barons-of-Braunstein

Quote from: Hrugga;872782
Let me say that from what I've read of To Serve The Petal Throne really gave me insight into Chirine baKal. Those adventures really impressed me. I felt like I was reading a pulp era Sword and Sorcery tale. Ingenious solutions to problems. Sometimes so simple it blew me away. The humor and smoothness of Lord Chirine is classic. A true Hero of the Age worthy of having songs sung in his honor. Uncle a hundred thanks for an eye opening experience.



More questions coming...Thanks.

H :0)

PS Thanks to The Glorious General and all who have helped make this thread a pleasure to read. So much to learn, so little time.

PSS Keep writing Uncle...
Yeah, that was my first reaction to the TStPT as well. "Much like other Sword and Planet stories, better written than most of them."
And I like the character better, he seems to combine brains and brawn without sliding in nihilism;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 10, 2016, 11:24:34 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;872826



Yeah, that was my first reaction to the TStPT as well. "Much like other Sword and Planet stories, better written than most of them."
And I like the character better, he seems to combine brains and brawn without sliding in nihilism;).


Agreed. Chirine baKal is Lan(khomoyi) personified!!! A true pleasure to read. Just plain fun!!!

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 11, 2016, 02:25:55 AM
[From AsenRG:]Yes, there are games aimed specifically at one-shots, these days. Some of them are pretty good.
Then again, there are games aimed specifically at longer campaigns. The demand hasn't gone away. It's just that the market tries to accommodate both groups, because you know, it's a market. It wants everyone's money:D!
(Fun fact: one-shot RPGs are, from what I know, the rule in places like Japan. I think it says much more about the schedules of Japanese gamers being hard to coordinate, and/or about them consuming more "episode-based media" that they want to emulate, than it says about their dedication to the games).


Fascinating! I could never get into one-shots; it always had to be a continuing campaign for it to hold my attention.

Well, I approve of your wargaming.
I can only say that I've never even seen it on a wargaming table around here. Well, that's actually wrong, I've seen it - the guy who did that was getting mocked by the other players for lamenting his troops, though.
It probably didn't help that this was a Warhammer game.


Agreed. I've always played that way; never did get into Warhammer, really. Nice figures, some of them, but the setting and the antics of some of the players put me off.

Didn't Dupuy and Dupuy get to the conclusion that it was the German General Staff that was the deciding factor in that superiority, especially at infantry level? Sure, superior armour helped, but when you put instead of the German General Staff a wargamer, that's an advantage you should expect to suddenly evaporate (unless the other wargamer is a German General Staffer, but that's a particular, and I believe, not really popular case :)).

I don't know about the General Staff aspect of it, but what I was thinking of was the German small-unit training and esprit that was built up. And frankly, most of the wargamers I've faced over the years have spent too much time reading rules sets and not enough time reading history.

Now, defeating those tanks is still really impressive! I'm just wondering about Dupuy and Dupuy (which I admit I haven't read, just found a synopsis - and it didn't help making me interested, especially since he seems to base his research at individual level on comparing the German to the Swiss mercenaries...in battles where the German mercenaries were equipped according to the Swiss model. And based on this he proceeds to discard the individual level, which I find an unsupported conclusion).

I think I'd agree with that. Their analysis is best when they stick to WWI and the plethora of research materials. Earlier periods, I'm doubtful.

I promise to practice, too! But it's hard to find opponents. Maybe I should look on Internet.
And lately, it might amuse you that this month's Open RPG Day in Sofia (it's a bi/tri-monthly event) has a "theme" for the games. The theme is "winter tales".
I'm planning to run Tekumel. "Winter tales" in Tekumel are going to be different from those in other places. Much busier time of the year, for one...


Oh, what fun - let me know if you need anything! :)


Both Gronan and Chirine: what do you think about that book?
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/139125/Barons-of-Braunstein

Ah, it's a sore point with me. The authors had heard of the Braunsteins, but didn't know that Dave is still alive - or how to spell his name. A few of us mentioned this to him, and he got in touch with them and worked something out. I don't know if the thing is any good; I;ve been told that there's very little 'Braunstein' in it, but that it is a good little set of medieval rules.

You can use any set of rules you want to play a Braunstein - I've talked about this quite a lot on both my blog and a couple of Intenet forums. It's a play style, not a set of rules. I learned from the good Major - he's suggested that I write something for him on how to play Tekumel-based Braunsteins...


Yeah, that was my first reaction to the TStPT as well. "Much like other Sword and Planet stories, better written than most of them."
And I like the character better, he seems to combine brains and brawn without sliding in nihilism;).


Thank you! My alter-ego does have very firm beliefs, ethics, and morals, and tries very hard to live by them. And, I've mentioned, thinks his way out of the situation a often as he can... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 11, 2016, 02:27:56 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;872848
Agreed. Chirine baKal is Lan(khomoyi) personified!!! A true pleasure to read. Just plain fun!!!

H :0)


Thank you! This, in a nutshell, is what I'm trying to do. Provide a little light reading, with heaps of fun; not a 'serious work', not an 'academic paper'. This is a bunch of friends in a basement having some fun... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on January 11, 2016, 04:49:09 AM
The veering off into wargaming in recent posts has me reminescensing over past glories. Here in the UK there is a group that does Megagames which are basically large scale wargames, mostly without figures as they are based at a higher command level.

They usually accommodate 50 plus gamers spread across multiple command levels with the newer, less experienced gamers taking lower level command positions.  There are a large number of umpires to handle all the interactions.

I've played in a Battle of Britain game, a Capt Morgan Attack on Panama game, a Great War game in the past and they were extreme fun and very different from the usual one-on-one miniatures wargame.

http://www.megagame-makers.org.uk/ (http://www.megagame-makers.org.uk/)

They are a lot like a one day Braunstein game it seems.

Nigel
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 11, 2016, 09:41:28 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;872950

Fascinating! I could never get into one-shots; it always had to be a continuing campaign for it to hold my attention.

Well, it's not that you can't play a campaign with those games. You just make each session self-contained.

Quote
Agreed. I've always played that way; never did get into Warhammer, really. Nice figures, some of them, but the setting and the antics of some of the players put me off.

Funny, those were my reasons not to get into it as well. Well, that, and I don't actually like painting.

Quote
I don't know about the General Staff aspect of it, but what I was thinking of was the German small-unit training and esprit that was built up. And frankly, most of the wargamers I've faced over the years have spent too much time reading rules sets and not enough time reading history.

Make that "most gamers" to include RPG players, and I'd agree fully:D!

Quote
I think I'd agree with that. Their analysis is best when they stick to WWI and the plethora of research materials. Earlier periods, I'm doubtful.

Glad to see my gut instinct was, in all likelyhood, right. I'd try to get his WWI book(s), then.

Quote
Oh, what fun - let me know if you need anything! :)

Well, I've been thinking to ask you about it...:)
Can you think of a superstition that has to do with the winter period (or conversely - the summer...), or the Year's End?

Quote
Ah, it's a sore point with me. The authors had heard of the Braunsteins, but didn't know that Dave is still alive - or how to spell his name. A few of us mentioned this to him, and he got in touch with them and worked something out. I don't know if the thing is any good; I;ve been told that there's very little 'Braunstein' in it, but that it is a good little set of medieval rules.

I might buy it at the reduced price, and we'll see...

Quote
You can use any set of rules you want to play a Braunstein - I've talked about this quite a lot on both my blog and a couple of Intenet forums. It's a play style, not a set of rules. I learned from the good Major - he's suggested that I write something for him on how to play Tekumel-based Braunsteins...

I'd fully support the idea of a Road Map To Tekumel Braunsteins As Practiced By Chirine baKal;)!

Quote
Thank you! My alter-ego does have very firm beliefs, ethics, and morals, and tries very hard to live by them. And, I've mentioned, thinks his way out of the situation a often as he can... :)

That's the best way to a good, mostly healthy life!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on January 11, 2016, 02:07:07 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;872986
Make that "most gamers" to include RPG players, and I'd agree fully:D!
Everyone (that hasn't read any good books on it) KNOWS history is boring. They all took years of it in high school and barely stayed awake!
:p

I think the rather involved "back story" that people create for their characters now is supposed to substitute for Play Time.
That way they can play a "fully realized" character in a short game or One Shot.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 11, 2016, 02:23:32 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;872986

Well, I've been thinking to ask you about it...:)
Can you think of a superstition that has to do with the winter period (or conversely - the summer...), or the Year's End?

I'd fully support the idea of a Road Map To Tekumel Braunsteins As Practiced By Chirine baKal;)!


Ask away! Let me think - there's the Circle Dance in the Nyemesel Isles, and a lot more, so I'll look.

I'll talk to Dave... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 11, 2016, 02:27:47 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;873002
Everyone (that hasn't read any good books on it) KNOWS history is boring. They all took years of it in high school and barely stayed awake!
:p

I think the rather involved "back story" that people create for their characters now is supposed to substitute for Play Time.
That way they can play a "fully realized" character in a short game or One Shot.
=


I'd agree with that; history, as taught in my high school, was agonizingly boring. I hate every minute of it, as I was pretty widely read, and knew better. I also knew a lot more about the subject then the athletics coaches who were made to teach the subject - due to the rules on 'amateur athletics' - and they hated it just as much as I did.

I think you're right about the back stories - we developed ours over a very long time of play...

Fascinating!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 12, 2016, 01:56:42 AM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;872962
The veering off into wargaming in recent posts has me reminescensing over past glories. Here in the UK there is a group that does Megagames which are basically large scale wargames, mostly without figures as they are based at a higher command level.

They usually accommodate 50 plus gamers spread across multiple command levels with the newer, less experienced gamers taking lower level command positions.  There are a large number of umpires to handle all the interactions.

I've played in a Battle of Britain game, a Capt Morgan Attack on Panama game, a Great War game in the past and they were extreme fun and very different from the usual one-on-one miniatures wargame.

http://www.megagame-makers.org.uk/ (http://www.megagame-makers.org.uk/)

They are a lot like a one day Braunstein game it seems.

Nigel


I'm sorry not to have replied to you earlier this afternoon; First Granddaughter Naomi was just coming into the world, and we were a bit distracted.

What you're describing is the kind of gaming that we did on a regular basis. Our miniatures games were very rarely 'one-on-one', and there were normally as many people on a side as wanted to play. 'Mr. Trigger-happy', in the game we've been talking about, was an exception; he felt that as he was such a clever, smart, intelligent stud-muffin of a gamer, he never needed mere minions such as the rest of us to help him run his side in a game. He lost a lot of games that way, as he simply could not keep track of everything in the games we played and usually had 'lost the picture' about game turn two.

We did the exact same thing - the less experienced players would play subordinate commanders, and if they did well they'd get 'promoted' / 'go up a level' to a higher command. We did the same for our RPGs; less experienced players would be helped by the more experienced ones, until they learned enough about the world setting to be survivable.

For a lot of Chirine's career, he was not the 'party leader'; he was 'the designated expert' that the party relied on to advise them and give them pointers. There were several instances, like Vrisa's lineage, where Phil very specifically told me to keep quiet and let the players figure it out for themselves. To Phil's credit, he never did this when the 'secret' would be fatal to any of the players - it was always a droll surprise or recondite in-joke that he wanted to spring on people.

The only times that I was 'in charge' was normally in a military or naval situation, where it was pretty obvious to the party that I should be in command - and they should shut up and listen.

From the beginning, Phil always went around the table to make sure that everybody got some 'face time' with him; I normally kept my mouth shut and 'yielded my time' to somebody less experienced then I was.

Great comments - thank you!!! :)

I hope that the 'veering off' isn't discouraging people from asking questions, though. We simply didn't see much - if any - difference between that now seem to be very separate genres and types of gaming.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 12, 2016, 10:19:16 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;873002
Everyone (that hasn't read any good books on it) KNOWS history is boring. They all took years of it in high school and barely stayed awake!
:p

I think the rather involved "back story" that people create for their characters now is supposed to substitute for Play Time.
That way they can play a "fully realized" character in a short game or One Shot.
=

They should have tried to learn something, instead:). Or maybe I was blessed with better history teachers.

Actually, many of the one-shot games don't assume a big backstory.
The way to go
Quote from: chirine ba kal;873006
Ask away! Let me think - there's the Circle Dance in the Nyemesel Isles, and a lot more, so I'll look.

I'll talk to Dave... :)

The Circle Dance sounds good, indeed, and I think I remember having read something about it;).

Anything from the mountain clans, though? And/or from the Tsolei isles? Jakalla? Those are the three locations I can see myself delving in most readily.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;873008
I'd agree with that; history, as taught in my high school, was agonizingly boring. I hate every minute of it, as I was pretty widely read, and knew better. I also knew a lot more about the subject then the athletics coaches who were made to teach the subject - due to the rules on 'amateur athletics' - and they hated it just as much as I did.

I think you're right about the back stories - we developed ours over a very long time of play...

Fascinating!

Athletics coaches?
That would be unthinkable around here. There are enough professional historians going around...
That might explain some of the dislike some US gamers seem to have for history in RPGs, then!

Not really.
More often, the way they do that is by skipping details that connect scenes. The scenes during the session can be some time apart, during which what you did in the previous scene comes to fruition.
Think of it as writing a session report for several sessions at once. You'd hit the points of interest, right?
Now imagine the GM makes you play out only those scenes.
That's, in a nutshell, how you should play, for example, Tenra Bansho Zero (a Japanese game which assumes one-shot games).
Next session, you can play another set of scenes with them, or get new characters and explore how what you did reflected on the lives of people 1000 km from there. You did play big, right:D?
Granted, there are other differences, but this is actually one of the most important, and most neglected ones, IMO;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;873086
I'm sorry not to have replied to you earlier this afternoon; First Granddaughter Naomi was just coming into the world, and we were a bit distracted.

What you're describing is the kind of gaming that we did on a regular basis. Our miniatures games were very rarely 'one-on-one', and there were normally as many people on a side as wanted to play. 'Mr. Trigger-happy', in the game we've been talking about, was an exception; he felt that as he was such a clever, smart, intelligent stud-muffin of a gamer, he never needed mere minions such as the rest of us to help him run his side in a game. He lost a lot of games that way, as he simply could not keep track of everything in the games we played and usually had 'lost the picture' about game turn two.

We did the exact same thing - the less experienced players would play subordinate commanders, and if they did well they'd get 'promoted' / 'go up a level' to a higher command. We did the same for our RPGs; less experienced players would be helped by the more experienced ones, until they learned enough about the world setting to be survivable.

For a lot of Chirine's career, he was not the 'party leader'; he was 'the designated expert' that the party relied on to advise them and give them pointers. There were several instances, like Vrisa's lineage, where Phil very specifically told me to keep quiet and let the players figure it out for themselves. To Phil's credit, he never did this when the 'secret' would be fatal to any of the players - it was always a droll surprise or recondite in-joke that he wanted to spring on people.

The only times that I was 'in charge' was normally in a military or naval situation, where it was pretty obvious to the party that I should be in command - and they should shut up and listen.

From the beginning, Phil always went around the table to make sure that everybody got some 'face time' with him; I normally kept my mouth shut and 'yielded my time' to somebody less experienced then I was.

I wonder - are those Mega-games a separate invention, or have people running them heard about MAR Barker's group, or a similar one?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on January 12, 2016, 10:50:05 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;873115

I wonder - are those Mega-games a separate invention, or have people running them heard about MAR Barker's group, or a similar one?


I was playing those Megagames originally in the early eighties so I doubt that the style of the Professor's home games had been heard of on the other side of the Atlantic by that time. The games are more in line with military wargames that have been going since the early nineteenth century and games played by a lot of the wargamers in the fifties.

I suspect that if anything the Braunstein style games being mentioned in the early wargame fanzines by folks like Jack Scruby might have influenced some of the early MegaGamers, but the use of these games by military officers and possibly the influence of some of the professional staff at Sandhurst may be more influential.

I played in a weekend game of the 1812 Russian Campaign just after the film of Waterloo (around 1971 or 1972)  was released with David Chandler and some of the other staff from Sandhurst and, although this wasn't a Braunstein style game, it did have some of the features of that style of game so that's why I don't think the style of the Professor's games have anything to do with the Megagames.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 12, 2016, 01:49:29 PM
[From AsenRG:]
The Circle Dance sounds good, indeed, and I think I remember having read something about it;).

Anything from the mountain clans, though? And/or from the Tsolei isles? Jakalla? Those are the three locations I can see myself delving in most readily.


Right. Here's where the Sourcebook is so handy; Phil did a huge multi-page list of festivals all over the Known World, and I'd go there. Let me see what I can do for you.

Athletics coaches?
That would be unthinkable around here. There are enough professional historians going around...
That might explain some of the dislike some US gamers seem to have for history in RPGs, then!


Yep. The rules for high school athletics , at that time, stated that all coaches had to be teachers and not paid professionals. They were to 'volunteer' their time coaching. Of course, the schools then hired professional coaches - who were very good, actually - and got them teachers' credentials. They were then placed as history teachers, where they could do no harm and get on with their coaching duties.

Not really.
More often, the way they do that is by skipping details that connect scenes. The scenes during the session can be some time apart, during which what you did in the previous scene comes to fruition.
Think of it as writing a session report for several sessions at once. You'd hit the points of interest, right?
Now imagine the GM makes you play out only those scenes.
That's, in a nutshell, how you should play, for example, Tenra Bansho Zero (a Japanese game which assumes one-shot games).
Next session, you can play another set of scenes with them, or get new characters and explore how what you did reflected on the lives of people 1000 km from there. You did play big, right:D?
Granted, there are other differences, but this is actually one of the most important, and most neglected ones, IMO;).


Oh, okay; understood.


I wonder - are those Mega-games a separate invention, or have people running them heard about MAR Barker's group, or a similar one?

They are a much older tradition, dating back as far as the invention of Free Kriegspiel, and got started with the beginnings of military simulations - what the UK called TEWT, Tactical Exercises Without Troops. It cost a huge pile of money to run live exercises on the ground, and running the same exercise on a game table was both cheaper and easier. Much the same level of simulation, but minus the cost.

Phil's gaming had very little influence on the mainstream of gaming, I suspect. While he was a founding member of the Society of Ancients, he was far too much over on what became the RPG side of things and got sort of sidelined.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 12, 2016, 01:52:01 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;873118
I was playing those Megagames originally in the early eighties so I doubt that the style of the Professor's home games had been heard of on the other side of the Atlantic by that time. The games are more in line with military wargames that have been going since the early nineteenth century and games played by a lot of the wargamers in the fifties.

I suspect that if anything the Braunstein style games being mentioned in the early wargame fanzines by folks like Jack Scruby might have influenced some of the early MegaGamers, but the use of these games by military officers and possibly the influence of some of the professional staff at Sandhurst may be more influential.

I played in a weekend game of the 1812 Russian Campaign just after the film of Waterloo (around 1971 or 1972)  was released with David Chandler and some of the other staff from Sandhurst and, although this wasn't a Braunstein style game, it did have some of the features of that style of game so that's why I don't think the style of the Professor's games have anything to do with the Megagames.


Agreed; see my reply to AsenRG, above. The British Army has always been right up in the front of simulation-running, and this is part of that tradition. The US Army was a lot slower to catch on, but for a while every unit had a set of rules and miniatures for modern combat to use in training exercises.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 12, 2016, 05:20:37 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;873144
Agreed; see my reply to AsenRG, above. The British Army has always been right up in the front of simulation-running, and this is part of that tradition. The US Army was a lot slower to catch on, but for a while every unit had a set of rules and miniatures for modern combat to use in training exercises.


Now if we could only teach a good chunk of gamers that the correct response to an ambush is NOT "That's not fair!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on January 12, 2016, 08:12:35 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;873183
Now if we could only teach a good chunk of gamers that the correct response to an ambush is NOT "That's not fair!"


Especially when they had to push aside the "warning flags" to get into the trap.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 13, 2016, 01:52:37 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;873183
Now if we could only teach a good chunk of gamers that the correct response to an ambush is NOT "That's not fair!"


Oh, yeah. How many times have we heard that line, before? Remember the first Minnesota Campaign, where I ran that big Tekumel siege game using Phil's wonderful modular city wall set, and one of the defending players whined and moaned that the game "wasn't fair" because he didn't have as many figures to defend the town walls as the attacking army had...

And he was still whining about it some thirty years later, too... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 13, 2016, 01:56:43 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;873209
Especially when they had to push aside the "warning flags" to get into the trap.
=


Oh, mercy me, yes! The players approach a sealed door liberally festooned with signs in half the known languages of Tekumel, all saying "DANGER! KEEP OUT! YOU WILL ALL DIE!"

So, of course, they crash the door; no precautions, no posting a sentry, no nothing. And the usually cheesy half-dozen undead behind the door slaughter the first four players through the rubble, and manage to seriously maim the rest. Never mind the undead magic-user they were guarding; she never got a shot in...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 13, 2016, 10:30:32 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;873247
Oh, yeah. How many times have we heard that line, before? Remember the first Minnesota Campaign, where I ran that big Tekumel siege game using Phil's wonderful modular city wall set, and one of the defending players whined and moaned that the game "wasn't fair" because he didn't have as many figures to defend the town walls as the attacking army had...

And he was still whining about it some thirty years later, too... :)


And when you say "Next time try tactics..."

"WAAAH!  CHIRINE'S BEING MEAN TO MEEEEEEEE!!!"

I wish I were exaggerating, folks.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on January 13, 2016, 11:25:06 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;873142
Yep. The rules for high school athletics , at that time, stated that all coaches had to be teachers and not paid professionals. They were to 'volunteer' their time coaching. Of course, the schools then hired professional coaches - who were very good, actually - and got them teachers' credentials. They were then placed as history teachers, where they could do no harm and get on with their coaching duties.
Coaches were not always history teachers.

My High School teacher for Trigonometry was a coach and so was my Statistics teacher. The trig coach taught the advanced math trig classes. He knew his stuff. I think my cross country coach taught history, but none of the history teachers I had were coaches. I can't speak to that coach's knowledge of history, but he was a successful coach with multiple state championships in X-Country and Track.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on January 13, 2016, 11:28:43 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;873247
Oh, yeah. How many times have we heard that line, before? Remember the first Minnesota Campaign, where I ran that big Tekumel siege game using Phil's wonderful modular city wall set, and one of the defending players whined and moaned that the game "wasn't fair" because he didn't have as many figures to defend the town walls as the attacking army had
Next time give him more figures. Make them 95% militia. Then turn the siege as an actual siege and make him break out before the food runs out. Alesia anyone?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 13, 2016, 11:32:06 PM
Hello,

I was reading a bit of The Blue Room Archive. I came across the names of some beings that I have not heard of before. I looked through my archives. I could not find any references to them. I'm wondering if you can help. The names are:

Heheganu and Hehecharu

A gentleman was sharing his theory of where the creatures of Tekumel descend from. Part of his theory was saying that the Heheganu and Hehecharu are descended from Humanity.

Any help is appreciated. Thank you.

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 14, 2016, 12:33:06 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;873427
Hello,

I was reading a bit of The Blue Room Archive. I came across the names of some beings that I have not heard of before. I looked through my archives. I could not find any references to them. I'm wondering if you can help. The names are:

Heheganu and Hehecharu

A gentleman was sharing his theory of where the creatures of Tekumel descend from. Part of his theory was saying that the Heheganu and Hehecharu are descended from Humanity.

Any help is appreciated. Thank you.

H :0)

 
Ahh!!! I might have found the answer to my own question in The Man of Gold...but just to be sure, I await your answer...

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 14, 2016, 02:12:40 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;873285
And when you say "Next time try tactics..."

"WAAAH!  CHIRINE'S BEING MEAN TO MEEEEEEEE!!!"

I wish I were exaggerating, folks.


He's not. It's why I only taped Phil's RPG sessions, 'cause the players there were a lot more, er, 'mature'. When I taped my stuff that's on YouTube, I made sure to warn all the players that any tantrums would be immortalized on the Internet forever.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 14, 2016, 02:14:52 AM
Quote from: Bren;873422
Coaches were not always history teachers.

My High School teacher for Trigonometry was a coach and so was my Statistics teacher. The trig coach taught the advanced math trig classes. He knew his stuff. I think my cross country coach taught history, but none of the history teachers I had were coaches. I can't speak to that coach's knowledge of history, but he was a successful coach with multiple state championships in X-Country and Track.


That's actually a relief to hear. My experience was in southern Minnesota in the early 1970s. What got to me was that the coaches were actually really good coaches; they hated being stuck in the history classes as much as we did.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 14, 2016, 02:17:56 AM
Quote from: Bren;873424
Next time give him more figures. Make them 95% militia. Then turn the siege as an actual siege and make him break out before the food runs out. Alesia anyone?


Agreed. I had thought about this, but simply wanted to get on with the game for the dozen other players. I refuse to play with this person, and haven't since the late 1970s. Luckily, he's never been much of a game person, so I've been able to avoid playing games with him pretty easily.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 14, 2016, 02:36:54 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;873427
Hello,

I was reading a bit of The Blue Room Archive. I came across the names of some beings that I have not heard of before. I looked through my archives. I could not find any references to them. I'm wondering if you can help. The names are:

Heheganu and Hehecharu

A gentleman was sharing his theory of where the creatures of Tekumel descend from. Part of his theory was saying that the Heheganu and Hehecharu are descended from Humanity.

Any help is appreciated. Thank you.


And:

Quote from: Hrugga;873427
Ahh!!! I might have found the answer to my own question in The Man of Gold...but just to be sure, I await your answer...


Yes, these peoples are discussed in "Man of Gold"; they are part of 'The Brotherhood Of The Half-Human' a loose association of various sentient peoples. Their populations are small and limited in location, and they tend to shy away from any sort of 'large-scale' contact with 'mainstream' humanity. Most people are unaware of their existence, and they kind of like to keep it that way. Seasoned adventurers do know about then and try to stay on their good sides, as they will provide some help to folks who treat them properly and respect their cultures.

As for where they come from, keep in mind that the Lords of Humanspace were not 'nice people'. They had a habit of selectively breeding their human - and other! - subjects to enhance traits that they needed. The tall Nlyss, for example, are thought to be the descendants of the original military garrison of Tekumel; the Nom, with their special pigmentation, are thought to be the descendants of the 'deckhands' of the Ancients' starships. Similarly, the two populations of 'natural' telepaths - in Lost Bayarsha and in the Nyemesel Isles, are also considered to be products of an ancient breeding program - both share the same 'markers'.

So, these are either the results of breeding programs, or populations of stranded tourists - it's one of the mysteries, quite honestly.

One thing to remember - as this does get forgotten by quite a few fans - Phil was writing about this before DNA was discovered. So, you get the 'life vats' and the very long-term breeding programs (and other such pulp tropes) as the reason for these kinds of beings.

See also the nasty, nasty research project done by Empress Dashiluna The Green-Eyed to combine the Pe Choi with humans. I did the miniatures, as we were dealing with these in the campaign, and it was one of the very, very few times I ever stopped Phil dead in his tracks; he hadn't considered what the final product of the program might be...

(I still have them, too, and they still give me the creeps.)

Does this help? This is the very short version of the discussion we had about this...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 14, 2016, 07:10:40 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;873448
And:



Yes, these peoples are discussed in "Man of Gold"; they are part of 'The Brotherhood Of The Half-Human' a loose association of various sentient peoples. Their populations are small and limited in location, and they tend to shy away from any sort of 'large-scale' contact with 'mainstream' humanity. Most people are unaware of their existence, and they kind of like to keep it that way. Seasoned adventurers do know about then and try to stay on their good sides, as they will provide some help to folks who treat them properly and respect their cultures.

As for where they come from, keep in mind that the Lords of Humanspace were not 'nice people'. They had a habit of selectively breeding their human - and other! - subjects to enhance traits that they needed. The tall Nlyss, for example, are thought to be the descendants of the original military garrison of Tekumel; the Nom, with their special pigmentation, are thought to be the descendants of the 'deckhands' of the Ancients' starships. Similarly, the two populations of 'natural' telepaths - in Lost Bayarsha and in the Nyemesel Isles, are also considered to be products of an ancient breeding program - both share the same 'markers'.

So, these are either the results of breeding programs, or populations of stranded tourists - it's one of the mysteries, quite honestly.

One thing to remember - as this does get forgotten by quite a few fans - Phil was writing about this before DNA was discovered. So, you get the 'life vats' and the very long-term breeding programs (and other such pulp tropes) as the reason for these kinds of beings.

See also the nasty, nasty research project done by Empress Dashiluna The Green-Eyed to combine the Pe Choi with humans. I did the miniatures, as we were dealing with these in the campaign, and it was one of the very, very few times I ever stopped Phil dead in his tracks; he hadn't considered what the final product of the program might be...

(I still have them, too, and they still give me the creeps.)

Does this help? This is the very short version of the discussion we had about this...

Chirine,

Good, yes. I was on the right track...

Since you mention it, The Nom(Humanspace deckhands) "special" pigmentation is for what reason? I do not recall that as being one the past discussion(I might have forgotten).

Also could you expand a bit about the Human/Phe Choi abominations. Could you actually describe them...

Thanks,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 14, 2016, 07:15:48 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;873448
And:



Yes, these peoples are discussed in "Man of Gold"; they are part of 'The Brotherhood Of The Half-Human' a loose association of various sentient peoples. Their populations are small and limited in location, and they tend to shy away from any sort of 'large-scale' contact with 'mainstream' humanity. Most people are unaware of their existence, and they kind of like to keep it that way. Seasoned adventurers do know about then and try to stay on their good sides, as they will provide some help to folks who treat them properly and respect their cultures.

As for where they come from, keep in mind that the Lords of Humanspace were not 'nice people'. They had a habit of selectively breeding their human - and other! - subjects to enhance traits that they needed. The tall Nlyss, for example, are thought to be the descendants of the original military garrison of Tekumel; the Nom, with their special pigmentation, are thought to be the descendants of the 'deckhands' of the Ancients' starships. Similarly, the two populations of 'natural' telepaths - in Lost Bayarsha and in the Nyemesel Isles, are also considered to be products of an ancient breeding program - both share the same 'markers'.

So, these are either the results of breeding programs, or populations of stranded tourists - it's one of the mysteries, quite honestly.

One thing to remember - as this does get forgotten by quite a few fans - Phil was writing about this before DNA was discovered. So, you get the 'life vats' and the very long-term breeding programs (and other such pulp tropes) as the reason for these kinds of beings.

See also the nasty, nasty research project done by Empress Dashiluna The Green-Eyed to combine the Pe Choi with humans. I did the miniatures, as we were dealing with these in the campaign, and it was one of the very, very few times I ever stopped Phil dead in his tracks; he hadn't considered what the final product of the program might be...

(I still have them, too, and they still give me the creeps.)

Does this help? This is the very short version of the discussion we had about this...

Chirine,

Good, yes. I was on the right track...

Since you mention it, The Nom(Humanspace deckhands) "special" pigmentation is for what reason? I do not recall that as being one the past discussion(I might have forgotten).

Also could you expand a bit about the Human/Phe Choi abominations. Could you actually describe them...

Thanks,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on January 14, 2016, 10:42:46 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;873446
That's actually a relief to hear. My experience was in southern Minnesota in the early 1970s. What got to me was that the coaches were actually really good coaches; they hated being stuck in the history classes as much as we did.
Mine was in Eastern Kansas in the early to mid 1970s. And to be fair, my High School was big (my graduating classes had around 800 kids) so we had a lot of teachers and our school district was wealthy so we were unlikely to be typical of much of anything.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;873448
See also the nasty, nasty research project done by Empress Dashiluna The Green-Eyed to combine the Pe Choi with humans. I did the miniatures, as we were dealing with these in the campaign, and it was one of the very, very few times I ever stopped Phil dead in his tracks; he hadn't considered what the final product of the program might be...

(I still have them, too, and they still give me the creeps.)
You say this and then you don't give us pictures? You big tease. ;) I want pictures of creepy minis.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 14, 2016, 02:10:57 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;873461
Chirine,

Good, yes. I was on the right track...

Since you mention it, The Nom(Humanspace deckhands) "special" pigmentation is for what reason? I do not recall that as being one the past discussion(I might have forgotten).

Also could you expand a bit about the Human/Phe Choi abominations. Could you actually describe them...

Thanks,

H:0)


The Nom are human, but have jet-black skin. It protects them from radiation. When they are out in the sun, on their big sea-going ships, they do not suffer from the effects of Tekumel's sun - and they sail around the seas on the equator.

No. I'll post a picture. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 14, 2016, 02:20:28 PM
Quote from: Bren;873475
Mine was in Eastern Kansas in the early to mid 1970s. And to be fair, my High School was big (my graduating classes had around 800 kids) so we had a lot of teachers and our school district was wealthy so we were unlikely to be typical of much of anything.

You say this and then you don't give us pictures? You big tease. ;) I want pictures of creepy minis.


Cool.

To hear it to obey:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 14, 2016, 02:33:06 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;873463
Again, to hear is to obey...

Also could you expand a bit about the Human/Phe Choi abominations. Could you actually describe them...


Please refer to the photos. We literally tripped over these in the underworld in Hmekuyal, and had a very nasty time.

To generate: roll as for Pe Choi, except for INT and PSY; roll for these on the human tables. They have the same chitin exoskeletons as Pe Choi, as well as the usual four arms and two legs. DEX as for Pe Choi; also have the Pe Choi ability to see in the dark and sense 'wrongness' as in EPT. They do not have the Pe Choi fear of water, as they breathe through their noses and mouth; these are also mammals, not insectoids.

We do not know if these beings are immortal or not, or if they have survived in enough numbers to be a viable population. They seem to be employed by the Temple of Dlamelish as guardians. They do very well at that, as we found out - the hard way.

Empress Dashiluna The Green-Eyed was not a nice person, if you want my opinion, and her antics while Seal Empress caused us a lot of trouble - and led directly to The Affair Of The Malchairan Emerald.

Phil scared the crap out of us, once again... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 14, 2016, 05:08:41 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;873490
Please refer to the photos. We literally tripped over these in the underworld in Hmekuyal, and had a very nasty time.

To generate: roll as for Pe Choi, except for INT and PSY; roll for these on the human tables. They have the same chitin exoskeletons as Pe Choi, as well as the usual four arms and two legs. DEX as for Pe Choi; also have the Pe Choi ability to see in the dark and sense 'wrongness' as in EPT. They do not have the Pe Choi fear of water, as they breathe through their noses and mouth; these are also mammals, not insectoids.

We do not know if these beings are immortal or not, or if they have survived in enough numbers to be a viable population. They seem to be employed by the Temple of Dlamelish as guardians. They do very well at that, as we found out - the hard way.

Empress Dashiluna The Green-Eyed was not a nice person, if you want my opinion, and her antics while Seal Empress caused us a lot of trouble - and led directly to The Affair Of The Malchairan Emerald.

Phil scared the crap out of us, once again... :)


Gross...They don't seem like they like to talk much...I'm sure the temple has other uses for them as well. Are there both females and males?

Thanks,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 14, 2016, 06:52:26 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;873142
[From AsenRG:]
The Circle Dance sounds good, indeed, and I think I remember having read something about it;).

Anything from the mountain clans, though? And/or from the Tsolei isles? Jakalla? Those are the three locations I can see myself delving in most readily.


Right. Here's where the Sourcebook is so handy; Phil did a huge multi-page list of festivals all over the Known World, and I'd go there. Let me see what I can do for you.

I'd be really grateful:)!

Quote
I wonder - are those Mega-games a separate invention, or have people running them heard about MAR Barker's group, or a similar one?

They are a much older tradition, dating back as far as the invention of Free Kriegspiel, and got started with the beginnings of military simulations - what the UK called TEWT, Tactical Exercises Without Troops. It cost a huge pile of money to run live exercises on the ground, and running the same exercise on a game table was both cheaper and easier. Much the same level of simulation, but minus the cost.

Phil's gaming had very little influence on the mainstream of gaming, I suspect. While he was a founding member of the Society of Ancients, he was far too much over on what became the RPG side of things and got sort of sidelined.

Right, it sounds unlikely, then.
Then again, we know (from his blog, too) that Dave Morris was playing Tekumel in the 80ies. And he was an influential figure in the 80ies FRP scene in the UK, due to having published "Dragon Warriors"...he was even writing to Phil, leading to the Court Case of the Sold Steel Sword;).
So there might be some crossover, but it's not really likely.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;873183
Now if we could only teach a good chunk of gamers that the correct response to an ambush is NOT "That's not fair!"

My players learned that.
It helps that my default answer to "that's not fair" is "life isn't fair", coupled with total lack of empathy to the objection.

Quote from: Greentongue;873209
Especially when they had to push aside the "warning flags" to get into the trap.
=

This makes it so much more fun for the GM...:D
Quote from: chirine ba kal;873247
Oh, yeah. How many times have we heard that line, before? Remember the first Minnesota Campaign, where I ran that big Tekumel siege game using Phil's wonderful modular city wall set, and one of the defending players whined and moaned that the game "wasn't fair" because he didn't have as many figures to defend the town walls as the attacking army had...

And he was still whining about it some thirty years later, too... :)

Well, if he wanted fair, he should have got three times less figures...
Quote from: chirine ba kal;873248
Oh, mercy me, yes! The players approach a sealed door liberally festooned with signs in half the known languages of Tekumel, all saying "DANGER! KEEP OUT! YOU WILL ALL DIE!"

So, of course, they crash the door; no precautions, no posting a sentry, no nothing. And the usually cheesy half-dozen undead behind the door slaughter the first four players through the rubble, and manage to seriously maim the rest. Never mind the undead magic-user they were guarding; she never got a shot in...

:D

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;873285
And when you say "Next time try tactics..."

"WAAAH!  CHIRINE'S BEING MEAN TO MEEEEEEEE!!!"

I wish I were exaggerating, folks.

Same objection here.
Complainer: "Waah! Asen's being mean to meeee!"
Asen: "No, I'm mocking you. If I start getting mean, everybody would notice the difference."
Bonus: it's a new player and everybody else in the group looks at him or her and nods. "He's saying the truth, you would have noticed!"

(Variant: "You're abusing your GM powers."
Asen: "If I wanted a PC dead, I'd declare you got sudden cardiac arrest. And it's what would happen. Now can we play this scene where you actually would have had a chance, if you weren't trying to play me instead of the game?")

Quote from: Bren;873422
Coaches were not always history teachers.

My High School teacher for Trigonometry was a coach and so was my Statistics teacher. The trig coach taught the advanced math trig classes. He knew his stuff. I think my cross country coach taught history, but none of the history teachers I had were coaches. I can't speak to that coach's knowledge of history, but he was a successful coach with multiple state championships in X-Country and Track.

I guess that's the difference between a coach that's also a teacher and a teacher that's also a coach;)?

Quote from: Bren;873424
Next time give him more figures. Make them 95% militia. Then turn the siege as an actual siege and make him break out before the food runs out. Alesia anyone?

Now Bren, you are being mean to the poor soul:D!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;873447
Agreed. I had thought about this, but simply wanted to get on with the game for the dozen other players. I refuse to play with this person, and haven't since the late 1970s. Luckily, he's never been much of a game person, so I've been able to avoid playing games with him pretty easily.

It's the best solution for some players, alas.
Quote from: chirine ba kal;873448

One thing to remember - as this does get forgotten by quite a few fans - Phil was writing about this before DNA was discovered. So, you get the 'life vats' and the very long-term breeding programs (and other such pulp tropes) as the reason for these kinds of beings.

See also the nasty, nasty research project done by Empress Dashiluna The Green-Eyed to combine the Pe Choi with humans. I did the miniatures, as we were dealing with these in the campaign, and it was one of the very, very few times I ever stopped Phil dead in his tracks; he hadn't considered what the final product of the program might be...

(I still have them, too, and they still give me the creeps.)

Does this help? This is the very short version of the discussion we had about this...

Well, you get a breeding program and life vats even in Dune...

And I'm sure it was a nice moment when you managed to creep Phil:D!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;873488
Cool.

To hear it to obey:

I like them. They seem like something some nasty people would use as a honour guard.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;873490
Please refer to the photos. We literally tripped over these in the underworld in Hmekuyal, and had a very nasty time.

To generate: roll as for Pe Choi, except for INT and PSY; roll for these on the human tables. They have the same chitin exoskeletons as Pe Choi, as well as the usual four arms and two legs. DEX as for Pe Choi; also have the Pe Choi ability to see in the dark and sense 'wrongness' as in EPT. They do not have the Pe Choi fear of water, as they breathe through their noses and mouth; these are also mammals, not insectoids.

We do not know if these beings are immortal or not, or if they have survived in enough numbers to be a viable population. They seem to be employed by the Temple of Dlamelish as guardians. They do very well at that, as we found out - the hard way.

Empress Dashiluna The Green-Eyed was not a nice person, if you want my opinion, and her antics while Seal Empress caused us a lot of trouble - and led directly to The Affair Of The Malchairan Emerald.

Phil scared the crap out of us, once again... :)

Brilliant!

Quote from: Hrugga;873509
Gross...They don't seem like they like to talk much...I'm sure the temple has other uses for them as well. Are there both females and males?

Thanks,

H:0)

If they're used by the temple of Dlamelish and a population is possible, you can bet there would be both males and females!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on January 14, 2016, 06:56:41 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;873488
Cool.

To hear it to obey:
Those are a bit unsettling. Very nice.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 14, 2016, 09:21:19 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;873488
Cool.

To hear it to obey:


Sweet Karakan I'd forgotten how horrific those damn things are.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on January 15, 2016, 01:17:07 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;873514


Well, you get a breeding program and life vats even in Dune...



In the later books it turns out that the "vats" are actually Telexiu females.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 15, 2016, 01:34:50 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;873556
In the later books it turns out that the "vats" are actually Telexiu females.

I know,  but my head canon is that the Telexiu vats are replacing the females;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 15, 2016, 01:50:15 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;873509
Gross...They don't seem like they like to talk much...I'm sure the temple has other uses for them as well. Are there both females and males?

Thanks,

H:0)


Nope, they were pretty aggressive when we met them; not much talk at all, but lots and lots of sharp pointy things. Phil's description was creepy enough... :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 15, 2016, 01:53:28 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;873509
Gross...They don't seem like they like to talk much...I'm sure the temple has other uses for them as well. Are there both females and males?

Thanks,

H:0)


Forgot to add; yes, there are males, from what we saw in the darkness, and they have the usual glossy black chitin of the Pe Choi males. We did not stay around to get more information, however... :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 15, 2016, 02:00:05 AM
[From AsenRG:]I'd be really grateful:)!

I'll see what I can do for you! :)

Right, it sounds unlikely, then.
Then again, we know (from his blog, too) that Dave Morris was playing Tekumel in the 80ies. And he was an influential figure in the 80ies FRP scene in the UK, due to having published "Dragon Warriors"...he was even writing to Phil, leading to the Court Case of the Sold Steel Sword;).
So there might be some crossover, but it's not really likely.


I'd agree with this; it's what the data says...

Same objection here.
Complainer: "Waah! Asen's being mean to meeee!"
Asen: "No, I'm mocking you. If I start getting mean, everybody would notice the difference."
Bonus: it's a new player and everybody else in the group looks at him or her and nods. "He's saying the truth, you would have noticed!"

(Variant: "You're abusing your GM powers."
Asen: "If I wanted a PC dead, I'd declare you got sudden cardiac arrest. And it's what would happen. Now can we play this scene where you actually would have had a chance, if you weren't trying to play me instead of the game?")


Yeah; I'd agree with this approach. Clear and to the point!

Well, you get a breeding program and life vats even in Dune...

Phil really enjoyed Dune, he said; it was the kind of 'hard SF' he liked.

And I'm sure it was a nice moment when you managed to creep Phil:D!

It was, really; it was always very hard to surprise him, as he'd been there and done that all over the world - there wasn;t a lot that fazed him. These did... :)

I like them. They seem like something some nasty people would use as a honour guard.

Like some of the people in the Temple of Dlamelish that I know... :rolleyes:

If they're used by the temple of Dlamelish and a population is possible, you can bet there would be both males and females!

Either that, or they grow more in the vats. Either way, I really don't want to know...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 15, 2016, 02:03:32 AM
Quote from: Bren;873516
Those are a bit unsettling. Very nice.


Thank you! I try. :)

A modern substitute is made by RAFM, I believe...

(I have the males, too...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 15, 2016, 02:06:15 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;873531
Sweet Karakan I'd forgotten how horrific those damn things are.


Yep; that was one of Phil's creepier nights, wasn't it?

I'm not sure if these could be considered a 'Saturday Night Special'. Phil had salted his world with lots and lots of little surprises like this, and they all lay in wait for us to come by and trip over them...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 15, 2016, 02:07:12 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;873556
In the later books it turns out that the "vats" are actually Telexiu females.


Really! Off to the bookshelf, then... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 15, 2016, 02:08:59 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;873560
I know,  but my head canon is that the Telexiu vats are replacing the females;).


Um; could be. The 'life vats' were a pretty stock item in the Fifties, so I think that's where they came from. The hospital at the South Pole R&R center has them, which is always good for laughs as the players panic... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 15, 2016, 06:54:58 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;873556
In the later books it turns out that the "vats" are actually Telexiu females.


Which book? It's been 15 years or so...The only one I didn't read all the way through was Chapter House...At the time I remember thinking, Honred Matres, huh...but we all ready have witches. I never finished it(maybe I need to). Anyhow I really liked the first two the most. Thanks.

H:0)

PS I'm the only one of out of my friends who likes Lynch's masterpiece!!! I also loved Jodorowsky's Dune it was an excellent documentry. Wonder how things would have changed if it was made...oh well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on January 15, 2016, 07:14:16 AM
I can't recall if the big reveal was at the end of Heretics or the beginning of Chapterhouse.  The other big spoiler would be that the Honored Matres are the descendants of Leto II's Fish Speakers, which makes a lot of sense.  They were already an offshoot of the Bene Geseret methods that was more focused on sex as diplomacy.  The last two books aren't bad but the setting changes a great deal over 10000 years with human optimization in conjunction with computers and computerized FTL drives.  But the broader setting never seems as rich.  I'd argue it all makes sense but I'm a bit disappointed we never saw the genocidal sentient robots that Leto II's "Golden Path" was supposed to deflect.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 16, 2016, 07:57:47 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;873566
[From AsenRG:]I'd be really grateful:)!

I'll see what I can do for you! :)

Thank you in advance, Uncle:)!

Quote
Same objection here.
Complainer: "Waah! Asen's being mean to meeee!"
Asen: "No, I'm mocking you. If I start getting mean, everybody would notice the difference."
Bonus: it's a new player and everybody else in the group looks at him or her and nods. "He's saying the truth, you would have noticed!"

(Variant: "You're abusing your GM powers."
Asen: "If I wanted a PC dead, I'd declare you got sudden cardiac arrest. And it's what would happen. Now can we play this scene where you actually would have had a chance, if you weren't trying to play me instead of the game?")


Yeah; I'd agree with this approach. Clear and to the point!

Thank you. I try to be clear and to the point-glad that it works most of the time.

Quote
Well, you get a breeding program and life vats even in Dune...

Phil really enjoyed Dune, he said; it was the kind of 'hard SF' he liked.

Yeah, same here...


Quote
I like them. They seem like something some nasty people would use as a honour guard.

Like some of the people in the Temple of Dlamelish that I know... :rolleyes:

Like those.
And who says they aren't subcontracting?

Quote
If they're used by the temple of Dlamelish and a population is possible, you can bet there would be both males and females!

Either that, or they grow more in the vats. Either way, I really don't want to know...

I just thought of something that might give you the creeps...;)
They're  neither eternal, nor really born in a vat. The temple of Dlamelish, however, knows the process that was used to create them, and recreates it every generation for a new batch of servitors.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;873572
Um; could be. The 'life vats' were a pretty stock item in the Fifties, so I think that's where they came from. The hospital at the South Pole R&R center has them, which is always good for laughs as the players panic... :)

Even I remember seeing "life vats" in a movie.
Hospital, South Pole, you say...
Scribbling in progress.


Also, my players are going to hate this thread unless I botch it all;)!

Quote from: David Johansen;873594
I can't recall if the big reveal was at the end of Heretics or the beginning of Chapterhouse.  The other big spoiler would be that the Honored Matres are the descendants of Leto II's Fish Speakers, which makes a lot of sense.  They were already an offshoot of the Bene Geseret methods that was more focused on sex as diplomacy.  The last two books aren't bad but the setting changes a great deal over 10000 years with human optimization in conjunction with computers and computerized FTL drives.  But the broader setting never seems as rich.  I'd argue it all makes sense but I'm a bit disappointed we never saw the genocidal sentient robots that Leto II's "Golden Path" was supposed to deflect.

Well, if we saw them, the Golden Path would have failed, right:D?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 16, 2016, 09:38:19 PM
A few pages back somebody was asking about promoting Tekumel during the 80s and 90s.  Not feeling energetic enough to see who.

In the 70s and 80s at least, Phil was actually genuinely worried about his professional peers finding out about Tekumel for fear it would damage his credibility.  Even his historical wargame figures were too outre.  I think this might have played into why he listened to those who wanted to make RPGS A SERIOUS NARTFORM; it's OK to say "I'm doing research on group improvisational storytelling," but not to say "we play a game about pretending to be heroes in an alien world."

And considering what I've learned in the intervening years about what a fucking snake pit professional academia is, he may well have been right.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 16, 2016, 11:26:37 PM
[From AsenRG:]Thank you in advance, Uncle:)!

You're welcome! :)

Like those.
And who says they aren't subcontracting?


Wouldn't surprise me; Lady Misenla was always very 'political'...

I just thought of something that might give you the creeps...;)
They're  neither eternal, nor really born in a vat. The temple of Dlamelish, however, knows the process that was used to create them, and recreates it every generation for a new batch of servitors.


Yeah, probably, or they just order up a new batch every now the then from the Temple of Ksarul to replace losses, like the way the Temple of Ksarul orders up new Qol...

Happy thought, this... :eek:

Even I remember seeing "life vats" in a movie.
Hospital, South Pole, you say...

Scribbling in progress.

Cool. The base at the South Pole is run by an AI, which in turn acts through a staff of what amount to Yeleth / androids and a pretty good sized staff of repair and security robots like the Ru'un. One normally arrives by tubeway car at the smaller station, and in you go. One time, we arrived via one of the larger troop carriers, and were greeted by very polite Yeleth on the station platform.

Once in, you get assigned barracks, and turned loose to pretty much do what you want - the place is like any large military base, with all the usual installations. There's a pretty nice 'shopping plaza', where the replicators will produce anything you might want - but it all gets debited to your payroll account and you can wind up getting your enlistment time in the Space Marines extended by quite a bit. Which leads us to the hospital...

So my players are poking around in the base, and get themselves into the hospital complex. The AI senses that one of them is injured in some way, so the medical 'bots' collect her and separate her from the rest of the party; they get ushered into the 'famly / friends waiting room', and they look through the transparent wall as she gets placed in a transparent tube by the 'bots.

Panic erupts as the tube slowly fills with a viscous pink fluid; neither she or the party can do anything but have screaming fits as the fluid climbs higher and higher in the tube. I had a good half-hour of really panicking players, before the fluid finally closed over her head. In desperation, she took a deep breath, and found out she could breath quite easliy.

The rest of the party got dosed with tranquilizers by the 'bots. She came out of the vat feeling quite good, and missing the old injuries and scars she'd gone into the vat with...

All good F/SF tropes, and a great game!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on January 16, 2016, 11:34:38 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;873823
Thank you in advance, Uncle:)!

Well, if we saw them, the Golden Path would have failed, right:D?


No, the Golden Path made humans that could survive the inevitable genocidal presentient robots but the robots remained an inevitable outcome of developing thinking machines.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 16, 2016, 11:44:28 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;873832
A few pages back somebody was asking about promoting Tekumel during the 80s and 90s.  Not feeling energetic enough to see who.

In the 70s and 80s at least, Phil was actually genuinely worried about his professional peers finding out about Tekumel for fear it would damage his credibility.  Even his historical wargame figures were too outre.  I think this might have played into why he listened to those who wanted to make RPGS A SERIOUS NARTFORM; it's OK to say "I'm doing research on group improvisational storytelling," but not to say "we play a game about pretending to be heroes in an alien world."

And considering what I've learned in the intervening years about what a fucking snake pit professional academia is, he may well have been right.


Well, you can contrast this with Hy Berman, who was a long-time miniatures wargamer as well as a very popular history professor. In Hy's case, though, because it was historical gaming it may have been seen as acceptable - eccentric, but acceptable.

With Phil, of course, he'd gotten started in early F/SF fandom, which tended to breed a certain cultural paranoia amongst the fan population; getting involved with RPGs early on - before he'd gotten tenure - would have been a career problem with the administration as it would have been seen as a certain lack of gravity and dignity befitting a full Professor and a Department Chairman.

The 'Serious Nartform' stuff came in with the needs of several of his later players for the enhancement of their own professional and artistic reputations. Quite a few of them wanted - and still want - to be seen as serious and respectable 'players in their fields'. (See also the Big Name Player who posted a sign on his office door with his name followed by the titles "Writer - Poet - Performer", or the one who insisted that "only a Bi-sexual Person Of Color can properly interpret Tekumel!")

And since a lot of these same people are very worried about their status, dignity, prestige, and position you get a lot of emphasis on just how serious 'interpreting Tekumel' is for these people and how much it has to be seen as a Serious Nartform in the process.

>Shrug.< Me, I push little toy soldiers around, just like I play with toy trains... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 16, 2016, 11:45:58 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;873859
No, the Golden Path made humans that could survive the inevitable genocidal presentient robots but the robots remained an inevitable outcome of developing thinking machines.


I knew I shouldn't have put away my slide rule. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 17, 2016, 12:07:18 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;873856

Panic erupts as the tube slowly fills with a viscous pink fluid; neither she or the party can do anything but have screaming fits as the fluid climbs higher and higher in the tube. I had a good half-hour of really panicking players, before the fluid finally closed over her head. In desperation, she took a deep breath, and found out she could breath quite easliy.

The rest of the party got dosed with tranquilizers by the 'bots. She came out of the vat feeling quite good, and missing the old injuries and scars she'd gone into the vat with...

All good F/SF tropes, and a great game!


Jeez, hadn't any of them seen "The Empire Strikes Back?"  :D

"Do not take carts past this sign..."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 17, 2016, 12:12:10 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;873865
Jeez, hadn't any of them seen "The Empire Strikes Back?"  :D

"Do not take carts past this sign..."


Apparently, not. Or they'd forgotten. Or something. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on January 17, 2016, 12:37:09 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;873866
Apparently, not. Or they'd forgotten. Or something. :)
I bet you put safety railings in your med center. ;) A building with safety railings immediately tells any savvy Star Wars aficionado that they are not in a galaxy far, far away.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on January 17, 2016, 01:01:18 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;873862
I knew I shouldn't have put away my slide rule. :)


You mean you haven't reduced it to hyper cognitive mmemonic structures in your mentat awareness yet?

For shame!

That sucker's gonna hunt you down and kill you one day.

Though actually, the society in Dune is a rational, intelligent, machine using society  that has put tight social controls on a range of technologies from nuclear weapons to genetic engineering to permit the continuation of a cohesive society.  It's a much better thought out setting than its inbred descendant Warhammer 40000 which is a construct of absurd extremes and the rule of cool.

Quote from: Bren;873869
I bet you put safety railings in your med center. ;) A building with safety railings immediately tells any savvy Star Wars aficionado that they are not in a galaxy far, far away.


The new movie shows that railings have been invented in the years after Return of the Jedi.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 17, 2016, 01:24:22 AM
Just a quick question on "ordering" vat creatures from The Temple of Ksarul. How much would one spend on let's say a dozen Qol? How long would it take for the Temple to create them(unless of course they have stock ready to go)? Would such an order be pick-up, delivery, or by arrangement? Would you happen to have a price list of creatures available...?

I could see PCs making a pick-up, delivery, or collecting strays that somehow made it loose...Or all three(your kind of mischief and mayhem)!!! Thanks

H:0)

PS Hope I'm not being too lazy(I didn't check any of the books)...It just came to me as I caught up on the thread.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 17, 2016, 01:30:15 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;873876
Just a quick question on "ordering" vat creatures from The Temple of Ksarul. How much would one spend on let's say a dozen Qol? How long would it take for the Temple to create them(unless of course they have stock ready to go)? Would such an order be pick-up, delivery, or by arrangement? Would you happen to have a price list of creatures available...?

I could see PCs making a pick-up, delivery, or collecting strays that somehow made it loose...Or all three(your kind of mischief and mayhem)!!! Thanks

H:0)


"The Temple of Ksarul officially denies any knowledge of the mythical creatures known as Qol.  Such things obviously do not exist."

"The first rule of Qol Club is that you do not talk about Qol Club."

This sort of thing would be handled at VERY high levels.  "Drop Dead Before Reading," sort of thing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 17, 2016, 01:48:28 AM
Quote from: Bren;873869
I bet you put safety railings in your med center. ;) A building with safety railings immediately tells any savvy Star Wars aficionado that they are not in a galaxy far, far away.


Of course there are railings - how safe they are, I couldn't say. I mean, we know what the world of the Ancients looked like - Phil was right up front about it, on multiple occasions. I even have copies of the movies that were made by visitors to The Future. Plenty of photos, too.

And what never, ever, ceases to amaze me about Tekumel fans here locally, is that they can still visit The Future in person and see the artifacts of the Ancients close up and personal and don't seem to even know that they can. Admission free on Sundays, too!

(And yes, this is a tease!)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 17, 2016, 01:54:22 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;873875
You mean you haven't reduced it to hyper cognitive mmemonic structures in your mentat awareness yet?

For shame!

That sucker's gonna hunt you down and kill you one day.

Though actually, the society in Dune is a rational, intelligent, machine using society  that has put tight social controls on a range of technologies from nuclear weapons to genetic engineering to permit the continuation of a cohesive society.  It's a much better thought out setting than its inbred descendant Warhammer 40000 which is a construct of absurd extremes and the rule of cool.

The new movie shows that railings have been invented in the years after Return of the Jedi.


No, I just reach into the desk drawer and pull it out - it's a K+M Log Log, the top of the line aluminum one , and still in the belt scabbard. Still works, and I still know how to use it. it was a gift from my dad, who was an engineer of the old school - I still have his slide rule, the one that took us to the moon when he worked on the Apollo program.

Warhammer, as a world-setting, is designed to sell stuff. Viz:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 17, 2016, 02:02:57 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;873876
Just a quick question on "ordering" vat creatures from The Temple of Ksarul. How much would one spend on let's say a dozen Qol? How long would it take for the Temple to create them(unless of course they have stock ready to go)? Would such an order be pick-up, delivery, or by arrangement? Would you happen to have a price list of creatures available...?

I could see PCs making a pick-up, delivery, or collecting strays that somehow made it loose...Or all three(your kind of mischief and mayhem)!!! Thanks

H:0)

PS Hope I'm not being too lazy(I didn't check any of the books)...It just came to me as I caught up on the thread.


Oh, dear... Now you've really opened up the vat of serpents... :)

First off, an average PC is not going to be able to order up any of these artificial life-forms; you'd have to persuade your clan to persuade the temple, and you'd all want very, very much to keep the Imperium from finding out. I'm not saying that it does not happen, but you are going to have to be at a pretty high-powered level to try something like this. It's going to cost a lot of very high-value favors for somebody!

Now, having said that, yes, it's entirely too likely that you and your fellow PCs will be 'volunteered' for any of the three little jobs that you named - pick-ups, carry-outs, and the strays... And yes, it will be very, very dangerous, as the strays are just as powerful and smart as you are.

Think "Blade Runner", for an idea of what's afoot...

As for availability, there seems to be a constant of about thirty days between an order being placed and PCs getting killed in the Underworlds - draw your own conclusions.

We, here at the Temple of Vimuhla, do not dabble in these arcane technologies. We have our own solutions, thank you, and much nicer ones they are, too. Warmer, as well. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 17, 2016, 02:04:28 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;873877
"The Temple of Ksarul officially denies any knowledge of the mythical creatures known as Qol.  Such things obviously do not exist."

"The first rule of Qol Club is that you do not talk about Qol Club."

This sort of thing would be handled at VERY high levels.  "Drop Dead Before Reading," sort of thing.


What he said. In bucket-sized loads. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 17, 2016, 05:17:50 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;873856

Like those.
And who says they aren't subcontracting?


Wouldn't surprise me; Lady Misenla was always very 'political'...

Now imagine: Trying to beat those creatures in a chase to the South Pole...:D
It's called "winter tales, AsenRG edition".

Quote
I just thought of something that might give you the creeps...;)
They're  neither eternal, nor really born in a vat. The temple of Dlamelish, however, knows the process that was used to create them, and recreates it every generation for a new batch of servitors.


Yeah, probably, or they just order up a new batch every now the then from the Temple of Ksarul to replace losses, like the way the Temple of Ksarul orders up new Qol...

Happy thought, this... :eek:

I'm glad it pleases you:)!

Quote
Even I remember seeing "life vats" in a movie.
Hospital, South Pole, you say...

Scribbling in progress.

Cool. The base at the South Pole is run by an AI, which in turn acts through a staff of what amount to Yeleth / androids and a pretty good sized staff of repair and security robots like the Ru'un. One normally arrives by tubeway car at the smaller station, and in you go. One time, we arrived via one of the larger troop carriers, and were greeted by very polite Yeleth on the station platform.

Once in, you get assigned barracks, and turned loose to pretty much do what you want - the place is like any large military base, with all the usual installations. There's a pretty nice 'shopping plaza', where the replicators will produce anything you might want - but it all gets debited to your payroll account and you can wind up getting your enlistment time in the Space Marines extended by quite a bit. Which leads us to the hospital...

So my players are poking around in the base, and get themselves into the hospital complex. The AI senses that one of them is injured in some way, so the medical 'bots' collect her and separate her from the rest of the party; they get ushered into the 'famly / friends waiting room', and they look through the transparent wall as she gets placed in a transparent tube by the 'bots.

Panic erupts as the tube slowly fills with a viscous pink fluid; neither she or the party can do anything but have screaming fits as the fluid climbs higher and higher in the tube. I had a good half-hour of really panicking players, before the fluid finally closed over her head. In desperation, she took a deep breath, and found out she could breath quite easliy.

The rest of the party got dosed with tranquilizers by the 'bots. She came out of the vat feeling quite good, and missing the old injuries and scars she'd gone into the vat with...

All good F/SF tropes, and a great game!

Heh. We'll see how they'd deal with the AI when they get there.
How is the AI going to react to some enlisted Space Marines leaving with some piece of medical supplies?

Quote from: David Johansen;873859
No, the Golden Path made humans that could survive the inevitable genocidal presentient robots but the robots remained an inevitable outcome of developing thinking machines.

Well yes, but they weren't nearly as genocidal;).

Quote from: Hrugga;873876
Just a quick question on "ordering" vat creatures from The Temple of Ksarul. How much would one spend on let's say a dozen Qol? How long would it take for the Temple to create them(unless of course they have stock ready to go)? Would such an order be pick-up, delivery, or by arrangement? Would you happen to have a price list of creatures available...?

I could see PCs making a pick-up, delivery, or collecting strays that somehow made it loose...Or all three(your kind of mischief and mayhem)!!! Thanks

H:0)

PS Hope I'm not being too lazy(I didn't check any of the books)...It just came to me as I caught up on the thread.

I see we're thinking among similar lines;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;873881
Of course there are railings - how safe they are, I couldn't say. I mean, we know what the world of the Ancients looked like - Phil was right up front about it, on multiple occasions. I even have copies of the movies that were made by visitors to The Future. Plenty of photos, too.

And what never, ever, ceases to amaze me about Tekumel fans here locally, is that they can still visit The Future in person and see the artifacts of the Ancients close up and personal and don't seem to even know that they can. Admission free on Sundays, too!

(And yes, this is a tease!)

But...but...but what about us non-local fans?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;873885
Oh, dear... Now you've really opened up the vat of serpents... :)

First off, an average PC is not going to be able to order up any of these artificial life-forms; you'd have to persuade your clan to persuade the temple, and you'd all want very, very much to keep the Imperium from finding out. I'm not saying that it does not happen, but you are going to have to be at a pretty high-powered level to try something like this. It's going to cost a lot of very high-value favors for somebody!

Now, having said that, yes, it's entirely too likely that you and your fellow PCs will be 'volunteered' for any of the three little jobs that you named - pick-ups, carry-outs, and the strays... And yes, it will be very, very dangerous, as the strays are just as powerful and smart as you are.

Think "Blade Runner", for an idea of what's afoot...

As for availability, there seems to be a constant of about thirty days between an order being placed and PCs getting killed in the Underworlds - draw your own conclusions.

We, here at the Temple of Vimuhla, do not dabble in these arcane technologies. We have our own solutions, thank you, and much nicer ones they are, too. Warmer, as well. :)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;873877
"The Temple of Ksarul officially denies any knowledge of the mythical creatures known as Qol.  Such things obviously do not exist."

"The first rule of Qol Club is that you do not talk about Qol Club."

This sort of thing would be handled at VERY high levels.  "Drop Dead Before Reading," sort of thing.


Quote from: chirine ba kal;873886
What he said. In bucket-sized loads. :)


Heh, sounds like lots of fun:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 17, 2016, 08:39:58 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;873877
"The Temple of Ksarul officially denies any knowledge of the mythical creatures known as Qol.  Such things obviously do not exist."

"The first rule of Qol Club is that you do not talk about Qol Club."

This sort of thing would be handled at VERY high levels.  "Drop Dead Before Reading," sort of thing.


Gottcha...!!! The last message will self-destruct!!!

H ;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 17, 2016, 08:42:28 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;873885
Oh, dear... Now you've really opened up the vat of serpents... :)

First off, an average PC is not going to be able to order up any of these artificial life-forms; you'd have to persuade your clan to persuade the temple, and you'd all want very, very much to keep the Imperium from finding out. I'm not saying that it does not happen, but you are going to have to be at a pretty high-powered level to try something like this. It's going to cost a lot of very high-value favors for somebody!

Now, having said that, yes, it's entirely too likely that you and your fellow PCs will be 'volunteered' for any of the three little jobs that you named - pick-ups, carry-outs, and the strays... And yes, it will be very, very dangerous, as the strays are just as powerful and smart as you are.

Think "Blade Runner", for an idea of what's afoot...

As for availability, there seems to be a constant of about thirty days between an order being placed and PCs getting killed in the Underworlds - draw your own conclusions.

We, here at the Temple of Vimuhla, do not dabble in these arcane technologies. We have our own solutions, thank you, and much nicer ones they are, too. Warmer, as well. :)


Uncle, May The Flame Be With Always...!!!

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on January 17, 2016, 09:58:43 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;873875
The new movie shows that railings have been invented in the years after Return of the Jedi.

I didn't think the bridge that Han fell from had railings though. But I've only seen the movie once so I may be remembering. Maybe there are a few prototype railings? ;)

Odd things about safety in space. No railings in Star Wars...seat belt technology being lost in Star Trek's Eugenics Wars and never rediscovered.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 17, 2016, 12:28:25 PM
Quote from: Bren;873939
Odd things about safety in space. No railings in Star Wars...seat belt technology being lost in Star Trek's Eugenics Wars and never rediscovered.


To quote Chirine, "Camera tilts left, everybody falls out of their chairs."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 17, 2016, 07:38:47 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;873906

Heh. We'll see how they'd deal with the AI when they get there.
How is the AI going to react to some enlisted Space Marines leaving with some piece of medical supplies?

But...but...but what about us non-local fans?


You naughty man... :)

The AI won't mind at all, as long as they fill out the right requisition forms and get them signed by their commanding officers. After all, it's simply issuing new equipment to the unit, and as long as the paperwork - electronic tablets, of course - if it's all correctly done, it's not an issue. Of course, if the AI finds out that the paperwork is not correctly filled out, then the mechanoid gendarmes will be sent out to collect the illegally issued gear. And that, of course, leads to further adventures... :)

Happy to help! May I suggest looking at the Minneapolis Institute of Arts collections of 'Streamline Moderne' artifacts? Also, have a look at The Future itself - the 1939 World's Fair in New York, and the Pacific Exhibition held the same year in San Francisco. Phil grew up looking at these events and this design style, and they were seen as what 'the future' would look like. This was also seen in the Korda brothers' film "Shape of Things to Come", with the world of the future depicted in the last portion being what Phil was inspired by for his Humanspace civilization.

We had a lot of adventures where we'd find some artifact of the Ancients, and had no idea what the thing was or what it did. Ordinary household appliances and devices were completely unknown objects to us, and Phil had great fun surprising us with what they did, and what they were. You can still see a lot of these in the Institute's exhibits, too.

And for extra fun, have a look at F/SF fan Forrest J. Ackeman in his costume at the 1939 WorldCon, sort of held in conjunction with the Fair, or at one Phillip Barker, winning the costume competition with his 'Ts urani' (his original word for 'Tsolyani') costume group at the 1950 World Con.

We costumers have been at this for a long while... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 17, 2016, 07:39:56 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;873929
Uncle, May The Flame Be With Always...!!!

H :0)


Thank you! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 17, 2016, 07:44:31 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;873957
To quote Chirine, "Camera tilts left, everybody falls out of their chairs."


Or even bolted down, because a lot of the bridge chairs were rentals from the furniture place up the street. Which is why the big fight in "Trouble with Tribbles" had to be so carefully staged - the director couldn't break any of the rental chairs, 'cause it would be too expensive.

Tubeway cars don't have safety belts either, but if the gravity compensators fail you'd never notice when the car goes splat in the collapsed tunnel... :eek:

(There are a lot of ways to get dead on Tekumel; this is one of the quickest, and surest...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 17, 2016, 10:26:32 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;874007
Thank you! :)


Sorry...

May The Flame Be With YOU Always!!!

H ;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 18, 2016, 02:30:39 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;874005
You naughty man... :)

The AI won't mind at all, as long as they fill out the right requisition forms and get them signed by their commanding officers. After all, it's simply issuing new equipment to the unit, and as long as the paperwork - electronic tablets, of course - if it's all correctly done, it's not an issue. Of course, if the AI finds out that the paperwork is not correctly filled out, then the mechanoid gendarmes will be sent out to collect the illegally issued gear. And that, of course, leads to further adventures... :)

Well, if they manage to fill it right...
Yeah, I doubt it as well:).

Quote
Happy to help! May I suggest looking at the Minneapolis Institute of Arts collections of 'Streamline Moderne' artifacts? Also, have a look at The Future itself - the 1939 World's Fair in New York, and the Pacific Exhibition held the same year in San Francisco. Phil grew up looking at these events and this design style, and they were seen as what 'the future' would look like. This was also seen in the Korda brothers' film "Shape of Things to Come", with the world of the future depicted in the last portion being what Phil was inspired by for his Humanspace civilization.

We had a lot of adventures where we'd find some artifact of the Ancients, and had no idea what the thing was or what it did. Ordinary household appliances and devices were completely unknown objects to us, and Phil had great fun surprising us with what they did, and what they were. You can still see a lot of these in the Institute's exhibits, too.

And for extra fun, have a look at F/SF fan Forrest J. Ackeman in his costume at the 1939 WorldCon, sort of held in conjunction with the Fair, or at one Phillip Barker, winning the costume competition with his 'Ts urani' (his original word for 'Tsolyani') costume group at the 1950 World Con.

We costumers have been at this for a long while... :)

Thank you for the tips, Uncle! I'm going to track those down.
I'm wondering what the tablets of the future would use as OS. What I'm sure is, they wouldn't have auto-fill, because what's the point of a form everyone can fill;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 18, 2016, 03:45:52 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;874117
Well, if they manage to fill it right...
Yeah, I doubt it as well:).


Thank you for the tips, Uncle! I'm going to track those down.
I'm wondering what the tablets of the future would use as OS. What I'm sure is, they wouldn't have auto-fill, because what's the point of a form everyone can fill;)?


Remember, when Phil first started working on Tekumel, Bobby Heinlein's heroes were in their spaceship machine shops cutting cams for the "robot pilot" for course changes.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 18, 2016, 05:32:51 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;874125
Remember, when Phil first started working on Tekumel, Bobby Heinlein's heroes were in their spaceship machine shops cutting cams for the "robot pilot" for course changes.


Well, that part might get slightly updated. I've been considering a Linux-Android hybrid;).

Maybe not having to deal with actual commands, but I'm totally going to borrow inputting through a console, for example:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 18, 2016, 06:23:45 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;874030
Sorry...

May The Flame Be With YOU Always!!!

H ;0)


No problem - I knew what you meant! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 18, 2016, 06:25:21 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;874117
Well, if they manage to fill it right...
Yeah, I doubt it as well:).

Thank you for the tips, Uncle! I'm going to track those down.
I'm wondering what the tablets of the future would use as OS. What I'm sure is, they wouldn't have auto-fill, because what's the point of a form everyone can fill;)?


Dealing with the military AI was good for literally months of fun!

No idea - I'm not a computer guy, and neither was Phil. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 18, 2016, 06:31:08 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;874125
Remember, when Phil first started working on Tekumel, Bobby Heinlein's heroes were in their spaceship machine shops cutting cams for the "robot pilot" for course changes.


Or the fire control computer on my first M48 - analog all the way, with different cams for each type of ammunition. Losing the cams on the turret floor was A Very Bad Thing...

Glad to hear you are running a "Legions of the Petal Throne" miniatures game at Gary Con this year! While I think an 8:00 am start time (on Thursday, I was told) is a bit mad, all the best - let us know how it comes out, eh? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 18, 2016, 06:31:11 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;874169
Dealing with the military AI was good for literally months of fun!

No idea - I'm not a computer guy, and neither was Phil. :)


It's not about computers, and I'm not a computer guy either, Uncle!
To me, it's about how to use the most expensive software and hardware possible to get the least effect in ease of use for the end user, thus requiring a bureaucrat's help:).
In other words, I doubt the Lords of Humanspace's bureaucrats were nicer than ours, especially given the evidence from other fields;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 18, 2016, 06:33:28 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;874151
Well, that part might get slightly updated. I've been considering a Linux-Android hybrid;).

Maybe not having to deal with actual commands, but I'm totally going to borrow inputting through a console, for example:D!


Yep. Voice commands, consoles, you name it - Phil had rung the changes on every 1940s and 1950s computer trope. Holograms, vision panels, flat screens, all sorts of displays and androids. You name it, he had it... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 18, 2016, 06:40:31 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;874171
It's not about computers. It's about how to use the most expensive software and hardware possible to get the least effect in ease of use for the end user, thus requiring a bureaucrat's help:).
In other words, I doubt the Lords of Humanspace's bureaucrats were nicer than ours, especially given the evidence from other fields;).


I'd tend to agree with this, based on what we saw in the campaign! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 18, 2016, 06:47:21 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;874176
I'd tend to agree with this, based on what we saw in the campaign! :)


Well, then obviously clear voice commands are out. You need to input the correct command in bureaucratic style via a console, and access to the console is not on the main menu:).

And of course, while the system adapts, the official language is Old Tsolyani, obviously, because legal documents need to be standardized;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 18, 2016, 07:17:09 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;874179
Well, then obviously clear voice commands are out. You need to input the correct command in bureaucratic style via a console, and access to the console is not on the main menu:).

And of course, while the system adapts, the official language is Old Tsolyani, obviously, because legal documents need to be standardized;)!


Well, yes - unless you have one of the 'translator marbles' that you put in your mouth, the system(s) will not accept voice commands in any of the usual languages.

Unless you happen to speak the forbidden language of Sunuz, that is. It's the language of the Ancients, apparently, and it's what the AIs think and speak in.

Makes trying to find one of the 'marbles' a really high priority... :)

Unless you happen to have a high-class/level Livyani sorcerer handy, that is. They tend to know this kind of recondite thing, which makes their snobbery more tolerable. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 18, 2016, 07:19:34 PM
Since I'm handling them pre-gens, why would I include a Lyviani sorcerer:D?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 18, 2016, 07:31:55 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;874170
Or the fire control computer on my first M48 - analog all the way, with different cams for each type of ammunition. Losing the cams on the turret floor was A Very Bad Thing...


Okay, that's both horrifying and hilarious.  Hilarious on maneuvers, not so much in battle...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;874170
Glad to hear you are running a "Legions of the Petal Throne" miniatures game at Gary Con this year! While I think an 8:00 am start time (on Thursday, I was told) is a bit mad, all the best - let us know how it comes out, eh? :)


Yeah, I will rise but I refuse to shine.

I remember playing a game of that with Dave S. himself as ref.  You had a certain pool of "magic points" and could put 1-10 into "attack" and "defense" each turn.

I asked Dave if the enemy knew HOW MUCH I put into each.  He said no... if the spell didn't get through you knew your defense was at least equal to his attack but that's it.

So I started putting up 10 point defense, and 1 point attacks until my sorcerers detected the enemy's shield collapsing.

The look on the enemy commander's face when the first DOOMKILL landed squarely on his legion of Shen mercenaries holding his center still keeps me warm at night.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 18, 2016, 09:50:21 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;874187
Since I'm handling them pre-gens, why would I include a Lyviani sorcerer:D?


Oh, I don't know. Maybe you have one sitting around spare, or something... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 18, 2016, 09:54:41 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;874190
Okay, that's both horrifying and hilarious.  Hilarious on maneuvers, not so much in battle...



Yeah, I will rise but I refuse to shine.

I remember playing a game of that with Dave S. himself as ref.  You had a certain pool of "magic points" and could put 1-10 into "attack" and "defense" each turn.

I asked Dave if the enemy knew HOW MUCH I put into each.  He said no... if the spell didn't get through you knew your defense was at least equal to his attack but that's it.

So I started putting up 10 point defense, and 1 point attacks until my sorcerers detected the enemy's shield collapsing.

The look on the enemy commander's face when the first DOOMKILL landed squarely on his legion of Shen mercenaries holding his center still keeps me warm at night.


Yep. And this was in 1976, too. You had to make your ammunition choices in good time, or you'd have to use the gun tube to fire over open sights. Worked with AP and APHE, but not with HE or squashheads. You didn't care, with beehives, as for those we just looked through the bore.

"Legions" is a fun game; I still use it for Qadarni battles, as it's quick and fast. The bases sizes are a little off, but I never worry about that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 18, 2016, 10:40:52 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;874186
Well, yes - unless you have one of the 'translator marbles' that you put in your mouth, the system(s) will not accept voice commands in any of the usual languages.

Unless you happen to speak the forbidden language of Sunuz, that is. It's the language of the Ancients, apparently, and it's what the AIs think and speak in.

Makes trying to find one of the 'marbles' a really high priority... :)

Unless you happen to have a high-class/level Livyani sorcerer handy, that is. They tend to know this kind of recondite thing, which makes their snobbery more tolerable. :)


Is this where the term "marble mouth" comes from...?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 18, 2016, 10:44:03 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;874213
Is this where the term "marble mouth" comes from...?


Nyuk! Nyuk! Nyuk! :)

We'll be here all week, folks; try the veal, the chef has a special dinner on...

Are the Kurt Hills the Catskills of Tekumel? The mind boggles... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 18, 2016, 11:27:10 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;874215
Nyuk! Nyuk! Nyuk! :)

We'll be here all week, folks; try the veal, the chef has a special dinner on...

Are the Kurt Hills the Catskills of Tekumel? The mind boggles... :)


Henny hi Youngman?

(not to mention Fozzie hi Bear.  Fozzie is the last of the Borscht Belt comics.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 19, 2016, 12:02:31 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;874204

"Legions" is a fun game; I still use it for Qadarni battles, as it's quick and fast. The bases sizes are a little off, but I never worry about that.


The story above also shows something you and I have discussed for decades; that is, how many gamers seem to be unable to think past "bloody obvious."  My opponent in the above game was absolutely astonished that I hadn't just put maximum attack and defense magic up every turn until I ran out of juice, like he did.

The obvious thing is rarely, if ever, the right choice.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 19, 2016, 12:06:27 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;874218
Henny hi Youngman?

(not to mention Fozzie hi Bear.  Fozzie is the last of the Borscht Belt comics.)


Given the level of humor around Phil's table, that's about right... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 19, 2016, 12:09:17 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;874229
Given the level of humor around Phil's table, that's about right... :)


And Phil the perpetual straight man.

I was too young for a while to realize how he was playing us...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on January 19, 2016, 09:47:53 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;872596
Not surprising; the Hokun paid for the planet to be terra-formed (I have a copy of the receipt for the work) and so they think it's all theirs...


Ok, have to ask. Is this a document the Good Professor created that you have in your archive or one that Chirine has in game?

And was it explained why they paid for it? I seem to recall that it was a crossroads on the good ol' interstellar highway that became a pleasure planet.

Only five parsecs until Tekumel! Visit the Mystery Spot!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 19, 2016, 10:26:42 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;874203
Oh, I don't know. Maybe you have one sitting around spare, or something... :)

Sure, I could...or I could give them a list of languages and let them pick...:D

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;874227
The story above also shows something you and I have discussed for decades; that is, how many gamers seem to be unable to think past "bloody obvious."  My opponent in the above game was absolutely astonished that I hadn't just put maximum attack and defense magic up every turn until I ran out of juice, like he did.

The obvious thing is rarely, if ever, the right choice.

Well, Occam says that it often is, but not always;).

Quote from: Big Andy;874280
Ok, have to ask. Is this a document the Good Professor created that you have in your archive or one that Chirine has in game?

And was it explained why they paid for it? I seem to recall that it was a crossroads on the good ol' interstellar highway that became a pleasure planet.

Only five parsecs until Tekumel! Visit the Mystery Spot!

In my version of Humanspace, they were adding "Don't miss out on the Milky Way's Bangkok!", FWIW:p!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 19, 2016, 02:16:20 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;874227
The story above also shows something you and I have discussed for decades; that is, how many gamers seem to be unable to think past "bloody obvious."  My opponent in the above game was absolutely astonished that I hadn't just put maximum attack and defense magic up every turn until I ran out of juice, like he did.

The obvious thing is rarely, if ever, the right choice.


Agreed. I've sen it all the time, no matter what the game or the setting.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 19, 2016, 02:16:59 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;874230
And Phil the perpetual straight man.

I was too young for a while to realize how he was playing us...


Yep... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 19, 2016, 02:26:11 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;874280
Ok, have to ask. Is this a document the Good Professor created that you have in your archive or one that Chirine has in game?

And was it explained why they paid for it? I seem to recall that it was a crossroads on the good ol' interstellar highway that became a pleasure planet.

Only five parsecs until Tekumel! Visit the Mystery Spot!


1. The document should still be in Phil's files; that's where I last saw it. I have a scan of it in my archives. Chirine does not have it 'in game', nor does he know it exists.

The deal I made with Phil, way back in 1976, was that when he did something for Tekumel, I would make a copy for the archives - the 'back-up copy', as it were - and he'd keep the original. (I have done this ever since; it's what I always wanted to do, be an archivist - nothing more.) Over the decades, I would supply him with copies as things would 'go missing', 'get borrowed and not returned', 'lost', and other fates. That's what the archives are for - heck, when Jeff and Amanda Dee lost their artwork files for their lovely cardboard miniatures due to a server crash, we were able to replace the files for them.

2. No. Phil was always very cagey about this, and kept suggesting that we go have a look. we declined; nobody, but nobody, wanted to mess with the Hokun. I's suspect it had something to do with the lack of iron, myself; the Hokun may have granted the mineral rights, and been upset that they got handed a strip-mined planet. And yes, it happens to be on a good node in the trade routes, which is why you have such a diverse set of peoples on the planet; turning it into a resort world may have been the Hokun's way of making lemonade out of a lemon...

Wall Drug of Humanspace! Free Ice Water! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 19, 2016, 02:27:23 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;874283
Sure, I could...or I could give them a list of languages and let them pick...:D


Well, Occam says that it often is, but not always;).


In my version of Humanspace, they were adding "Don't miss out on the Milky Way's Bangkok!", FWIW:p!


Agreed! Given the way the Lords of Humanspace acted, it wouldn't surprise me...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Atsuku Nare on January 21, 2016, 06:05:28 PM
A few questions about the galaxy that Tekumel was formerly a part of...

Was the Humanspace empire the dominant force in known space, or were there other non-human races who had similar holdings? The Humanspace people sound somewhat like a bunch o' bastards (considering what you said they'd do if Tekumel reappeared in regular space), and I'm curious if they had/have any opposition, either human or not.

Did Phil ever give an "Earth year" for when Tekumel disappeared? I'd be curious how far into his future this happened, and (approximately) what the Earth date would be "now" - currently on Tekumel.

Do you think the Lords of Humanspace miss Tekumel, and have been/are looking into what happened? You've mentioned how it was important to stop the ones on Tekumel from moving the planet back into real-space, I was just wondering if there was any pull going on the other way. Some kind of incursion of forces from real-space, if they could make a stable gate or dimensional portal, could spell real trouble!

Thanks for your answers! This thread continues to be an awesome look into some wonderful games and fascinating players - I'm really enjoying it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 21, 2016, 11:20:08 PM
Quote from: Atsuku Nare;874690
A few questions about the galaxy that Tekumel was formerly a part of...

Was the Humanspace empire the dominant force in known space, or were there other non-human races who had similar holdings? The Humanspace people sound somewhat like a bunch o' bastards (considering what you said they'd do if Tekumel reappeared in regular space), and I'm curious if they had/have any opposition, either human or not.

Did Phil ever give an "Earth year" for when Tekumel disappeared? I'd be curious how far into his future this happened, and (approximately) what the Earth date would be "now" - currently on Tekumel.

Do you think the Lords of Humanspace miss Tekumel, and have been/are looking into what happened? You've mentioned how it was important to stop the ones on Tekumel from moving the planet back into real-space, I was just wondering if there was any pull going on the other way. Some kind of incursion of forces from real-space, if they could make a stable gate or dimensional portal, could spell real trouble!

Thanks for your answers! This thread continues to be an awesome look into some wonderful games and fascinating players - I'm really enjoying it.


If you have never seen this...enjoy!!! It is not official, but I think you will like it. I do...https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B45OdT6sx2_cODhkZGE0MzYtMWQ1Yi00NGQ4LWJkZTEtMTVlZmY2OWExZDg3/edit?hl=en&pli=1

H :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 22, 2016, 02:19:14 AM
[From Atsuku Nare:]A few questions about the galaxy that Tekumel was formerly a part of...

Was the Humanspace empire the dominant force in known space, or were there other non-human races who had similar holdings? The Humanspace people sound somewhat like a bunch o' bastards (considering what you said they'd do if Tekumel reappeared in regular space), and I'm curious if they had/have any opposition, either human or not.

Yes, they did; both the Shunned Ones and the Hlutrgu were enemies. The H Mihalli were considered 'dangergrous', and there was a no contact rule in force about them. The Hokun were sort of allies, and the Nyagga very neutral.

And yes; the Lords of Humanspace were not nice people...

Did Phil ever give an "Earth year" for when Tekumel disappeared? I'd be curious how far into his future this happened, and (approximately) what the Earth date would be "now" - currently on Tekumel.

60,000 years from now, he said. Earth has been long forgotten, away across the galaxy. So, you could say 62,016 AD /CE, if you wanted to, although I'd plump for 69,946 AD / CE based on the date when Phil did his very first Tekumel writing.

Do you think the Lords of Humanspace miss Tekumel, and have been/are looking into what happened? You've mentioned how it was important to stop the ones on Tekumel from moving the planet back into real-space, I was just wondering if there was any pull going on the other way. Some kind of incursion of forces from real-space, if they could make a stable gate or dimensional portal, could spell real trouble!

They seem to, as we occasionally ran into parties of 'spies' and 'adventurers' who seemed to be working for somebody entirely besides The Usual Suspects, and who seemed to have entirely too much in the way of supposedly Ancient Technology. They also tended not to hang around long enough for us to ask any really interesting questions, too, and tended to leave via Nexus Points in a hurry. (Again, keep in mind Phil's long connection with the classic SF themes!)

Yes, we always kept a very close guard on any stable Nexus Points as well as on the tubeway car stations - unwelcome visitors were always a possibility!

Thanks for your answers! This thread continues to be an awesome look into some wonderful games and fascinating players - I'm really enjoying it.

You're very welcome; this is your thread, not mine, really. I'm here to answer your questions... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 22, 2016, 02:20:29 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;874733
If you have never seen this...enjoy!!! It is not official, but I think you will like it. I do...https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B45OdT6sx2_cODhkZGE0MzYtMWQ1Yi00NGQ4LWJkZTEtMTVlZmY2OWExZDg3/edit?hl=en&pli=1

H :0)


Agreed! I thought that this was a really nice bit of work, and was quite saddened when it all stopped dead. There used to be a website, too, but I don;t know if it's still up.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 22, 2016, 05:53:58 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;874315
Agreed! Given the way the Lords of Humanspace acted, it wouldn't surprise me...

:D
Well, they had power over energy and matter. And with absolute power comes absolute irresponsibility, more often than not:).

Quote from: Hrugga;874733
If you have never seen this...enjoy!!! It is not official, but I think you will like it. I do...https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B45OdT6sx2_cODhkZGE0MzYtMWQ1Yi00NGQ4LWJkZTEtMTVlZmY2OWExZDg3/edit?hl=en&pli=1

H :0)

FWIW, I hadn't seen it, and I like it.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;874756
[From Atsuku Nare:]A few questions about the galaxy that Tekumel was formerly a part of...

Was the Humanspace empire the dominant force in known space, or were there other non-human races who had similar holdings? The Humanspace people sound somewhat like a bunch o' bastards (considering what you said they'd do if Tekumel reappeared in regular space), and I'm curious if they had/have any opposition, either human or not.

Yes, they did; both the Shunned Ones and the Hlutrgu were enemies. The H Mihalli were considered 'dangergrous', and there was a no contact rule in force about them. The Hokun were sort of allies, and the Nyagga very neutral.

And yes; the Lords of Humanspace were not nice people...

Did Phil ever give an "Earth year" for when Tekumel disappeared? I'd be curious how far into his future this happened, and (approximately) what the Earth date would be "now" - currently on Tekumel.

60,000 years from now, he said. Earth has been long forgotten, away across the galaxy. So, you could say 62,016 AD /CE, if you wanted to, although I'd plump for 69,946 AD / CE based on the date when Phil did his very first Tekumel writing.

Do you think the Lords of Humanspace miss Tekumel, and have been/are looking into what happened? You've mentioned how it was important to stop the ones on Tekumel from moving the planet back into real-space, I was just wondering if there was any pull going on the other way. Some kind of incursion of forces from real-space, if they could make a stable gate or dimensional portal, could spell real trouble!

They seem to, as we occasionally ran into parties of 'spies' and 'adventurers' who seemed to be working for somebody entirely besides The Usual Suspects, and who seemed to have entirely too much in the way of supposedly Ancient Technology. They also tended not to hang around long enough for us to ask any really interesting questions, too, and tended to leave via Nexus Points in a hurry. (Again, keep in mind Phil's long connection with the classic SF themes!)

Yes, we always kept a very close guard on any stable Nexus Points as well as on the tubeway car stations - unwelcome visitors were always a possibility!

Thanks for your answers! This thread continues to be an awesome look into some wonderful games and fascinating players - I'm really enjoying it.

You're very welcome; this is your thread, not mine, really. I'm here to answer your questions... :)

*Sound of Asen scribbling notes*.
Yes, my players are totally going to love that;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 22, 2016, 07:02:09 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;874757
Agreed! I thought that this was a really nice bit of work, and was quite saddened when it all stopped dead. There used to be a website, too, but I don;t know if it's still up.


The websites are still there. Plenty of stuff to run games(some cool SNS):

http://ixians.blogspot.com/?m=0

This too...http://odd74.proboards.com/board/46/humanspace-empires-pbp-game Plenty to keep one busy!!!

Enjoy,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 22, 2016, 10:02:26 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;874733
If you have never seen this...enjoy!!! It is not official, but I think you will like it. I do...https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B45OdT6sx2_cODhkZGE0MzYtMWQ1Yi00NGQ4LWJkZTEtMTVlZmY2OWExZDg3/edit?hl=en&pli=1

H :0)


Cool.

Historical note:  Phil called his FTL drive "The Three-Light Drive".  Sort of reminds one of the Eighth Ray, doesn't it?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 22, 2016, 11:17:04 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;874811
Cool.

Historical note:  Phil called his FTL drive "The Three-Light Drive".  Sort of reminds one of the Eighth Ray, doesn't it?


I actually recently accuired all of the Lensman books for about $3.46 each. I'm very happy!!! :0)
So I started with Galactic Patrol, since it was the technically the first Lensman
story written(I believe Doc rewrote Triplanetary to fit the Lensman saga. It has
spoilers...from what I understand). I should be done reading GP by tomorrow. My plan is to move onto A Princess of Mars next. I'm getting there!!!

Isn't The Three-Light Drive mentioned in the S&G sourcebook? I think they also mention it in the Humanspace doc I posted. I do have notes on it I found somewhere...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 22, 2016, 02:19:03 PM
Well, I think we've taken a delightful turn! Wonderful!

The reason the 'Three-Light Drive' is called that is because - according to Phil - every time a ship goes into it you get three flashes of light, and the same when they come out. Nobody knows why - it just is.

There's been a lot of fan speculation that this is because the drive moves the ship three times faster then light, but nobody knows for sure. Like I say, it just is.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 22, 2016, 05:36:03 PM
I wanted to ask this before, but it slipped my mind. So here goes...What form, or apperance are "Books" on Tekumel? Western like, folded(accordion style, like an Aztec Codex), or like scrolls? Or all of the above...? I also seem to remember something about "metal" plates as well...? Thanks

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 22, 2016, 06:43:26 PM
This is a handy-dandy link to The Humanspace RPG resource page...I forgot to post this before. Some of my favorite haunts are here...Enjoy!!!


http://ixians.blogspot.com/p/humanspace-resources.html?m=1


H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: rawma on January 22, 2016, 07:10:49 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;874844
The reason the 'Three-Light Drive' is called that is because - according to Phil - every time a ship goes into it you get three flashes of light, and the same when they come out. Nobody knows why - it just is.


I dunno. Jean-Luc Picard says there are four lights, and he's traveled faster than the speed of light enough that he ought to know.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: yosemitemike on January 22, 2016, 08:35:34 PM
I can't find part 2 of this series.
http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/2014/07/essay-on-braunstein-part-third-july.html
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 22, 2016, 08:39:52 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;874844
Well, I think we've taken a delightful turn! Wonderful!

The reason the 'Three-Light Drive' is called that is because - according to Phil - every time a ship goes into it you get three flashes of light, and the same when they come out. Nobody knows why - it just is.

There's been a lot of fan speculation that this is because the drive moves the ship three times faster then light, but nobody knows for sure. Like I say, it just is.


As to the latter part, at 3C the ships are going nowhere.  Space is big.  Sigh.  When you and I were in Starfleet Academy they made us learn basic math.

I had hypothesized that there were three "drive emitters" at the rear of the ship and each gives off a different wavelength of harmonic visible light, but I'm glad to hear what Phil's idea was.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on January 22, 2016, 09:26:32 PM
There are four lights!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 23, 2016, 02:22:56 AM
Quote from: yosemitemike;874884
I can't find part 2 of this series.
http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/2014/07/essay-on-braunstein-part-third-july.html


It's there; I just checked. Either click on the 'older posts' button when you're looking at the 'Braunstein' label search results, or go to the list of years / posts in the left-hand column and click on 2014 - this was in July of 2014, and you'll see all the posts on this. Please let me know if you have problems, too!

More answers in the morning - long night at work, and I'm off to bed as I have to work a game tomorrow night... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on January 23, 2016, 10:43:57 AM
How far off of the main Tekumel main trunk would it be to merge in
Chitin:I for the Hlyss?
Meaning that for the Hlyss you have all the physical types from Chitin and not just the single type in the original game rules?

https://www.blackgate.com/2014/12/28/the-classic-games-of-metagaming-chitin-i-the-harvest-wars/

Is there enough known about the Hlyss (in the original rules) that this would break the setting?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on January 23, 2016, 11:01:58 AM
How far off of the Tekumel setting main trunk would it be to merge in Chitin:I for the Hlyss?
Meaning that for the Hlyss you have all the physical types from Chitin and not just the single type in the original game rules?

https://www.blackgate.com/2014/12/28/the-classic-games-of-metagaming-chitin-i-the-harvest-wars/

Is there enough known about the Hlyss (in the original rules) that this would break the setting?

I think an invasion from the sea by a "harvest" army of Hylss, with all sub-types, would be an exciting game idea.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 23, 2016, 11:04:34 AM
And I must report with deep regret that due to a medical emergency in the family, happening at the last moment, I had to cancel running Tekumel on the local mini-con.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 23, 2016, 01:41:58 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;874864
I wanted to ask this before, but it slipped my mind. So here goes...What form, or apperance are "Books" on Tekumel? Western like, folded(accordion style, like an Aztec Codex), or like scrolls? Or all of the above...? I also seem to remember something about "metal" plates as well...? Thanks

H:0)


All of the above, plus some. Really important documents are engraved on metal plates, parchment is used, and paper very common. You'll also see stacks of wood, leaves, and every imaginable material put together and written on. There is no use of moveable type, however. Block printing is used for cheap and nasty things for which a huge number are needed, because the scribes turn up their noses at these as being unworthy of their time.

One of the very coolest and most wonderful moments of my life came when we were up in the 'attic' - Phil's third floor home office. He had a huge - over 8,000 item - personal library, and he was showing some of us around. He told me to hold out my hands, palms up, and he put a small - about the size of the usual paperback - book in them. The cover was ornately carven, and he then opened the book very carefully and began to turn the pages.

I had everything I could do to not drop the book. The pages were covered with deep black in calligraphy in Urdu; it was a copy of the Qu'uran, written in the ink of squids on pages not of paper, but of paper-thin ivory. About 700 years old, Phil said. He also had examples of everything you mentioned, as well as Japanese 'accordian books', Chinese bamboo books, Persian miniature paintings, and Tibetan leaf books.

So, yes, you get everything... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 23, 2016, 01:42:43 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;874868
This is a handy-dandy link to The Humanspace RPG resource page...I forgot to post this before. Some of my favorite haunts are here...Enjoy!!!


http://ixians.blogspot.com/p/humanspace-resources.html?m=1


H:0)


Thank you for posting this!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 23, 2016, 01:44:21 PM
Quote from: rawma;874873
I dunno. Jean-Luc Picard says there are four lights, and he's traveled faster than the speed of light enough that he ought to know.


Yep; and Phil was doing his writing when the good Captain's ancestor was taking a little trip in his bathyscape - little bit o' trivia there... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 23, 2016, 01:45:06 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;874811
Cool.

Historical note:  Phil called his FTL drive "The Three-Light Drive".  Sort of reminds one of the Eighth Ray, doesn't it?


Why... Why... How could you say that... ? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 23, 2016, 01:46:39 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;874885
As to the latter part, at 3C the ships are going nowhere.  Space is big.  Sigh.  When you and I were in Starfleet Academy they made us learn basic math.

I had hypothesized that there were three "drive emitters" at the rear of the ship and each gives off a different wavelength of harmonic visible light, but I'm glad to hear what Phil's idea was.


Yep; it's one of those 'who knows?' things. All Phil cared about was that you could go from planet to planet really quickly.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 23, 2016, 01:50:58 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;874986
How far off of the main Tekumel main trunk would it be to merge in
Chitin:I for the Hlyss?
Meaning that for the Hlyss you have all the physical types from Chitin and not just the single type in the original game rules?

https://www.blackgate.com/2014/12/28/the-classic-games-of-metagaming-chitin-i-the-harvest-wars/

Is there enough known about the Hlyss (in the original rules) that this would break the setting?
=


I don't see where there'd be a problem. Phil had one 'chitin' to make things easier in the game, but I don't see where this kind of distinction would be an issue. In our time gaming with him, Pe Choi tended to have a little bit 'thinner' chitin then Hlyss, so you could easily use this handy set of rules to show this. Hlyss are supposed to be very tough and feared, so I think you're fine. One could even make the difference between Hlyss 'workers', which were pretty easy to kill, and the 'warriors', which were very tough for a human to take on.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 23, 2016, 01:51:55 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;874989
And I must report with deep regret that due to a medical emergency in the family, happening at the last moment, I had to cancel running Tekumel on the local mini-con.


Oh, dear... You take care, and all out very best!!! :(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 23, 2016, 01:54:19 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;874989
And I must report with deep regret that due to a medical emergency in the family, happening at the last moment, I had to cancel running Tekumel on the local mini-con.


Hope everything turns out ok.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 23, 2016, 01:55:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;875013
Yep; it's one of those 'who knows?' things. All Phil cared about was that you could go from planet to planet really quickly.


You and I understand this, of course, but the notion seems to get lost in some places.

Sometimes, the amount of time it takes the Starship Enterprise to get from Gamma Hydra III to Rigel VII is "however long the plot needs it to take."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 23, 2016, 02:16:23 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;875019
You and I understand this, of course, but the notion seems to get lost in some places.

Sometimes, the amount of time it takes the Starship Enterprise to get from Gamma Hydra III to Rigel VII is "however long the plot needs it to take."


Too 'handwavy'. Too 'loosy-goosy'. Needs more rules to be an accurate simulation of reality. Not realistic. Etc., Etc., Etc. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: rawma on January 23, 2016, 02:22:11 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;875011
Yep; and Phil was doing his writing when the good Captain's ancestor was taking a little trip in his bathyscape - little bit o' trivia there... :)


But that was Piccard; I always figured Jean-Luc was descended from the mathematician. It does make sense that someone would add a fourth light over the centuries; people just have to mess with stuff (including the spelling of family names), but especially so when it's something they don't understand.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 23, 2016, 02:38:23 PM
Quote from: rawma;875024
But that was Piccard; I always figured Jean-Luc was descended from the mathematician. It does make sense that someone would add a fourth light over the centuries; people just have to mess with stuff (including the spelling of family names), but especially so when it's something they don't understand.


Agreed about the spelling; Gene Roddenberry said he'd gotten it wrong in an interview we did with him at a convention, as part of the first season of ST:TNG marketing, and that the Captain was descended from the scientist - I think this had a lot to do with Gene's career in aviation; he may not have known about the mathematician. I think it's a very cool idea!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 23, 2016, 03:15:14 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;875009
All of the above, plus some. Really important documents are engraved on metal plates, parchment is used, and paper very common. You'll also see stacks of wood, leaves, and every imaginable material put together and written on. There is no use of moveable type, however. Block printing is used for cheap and nasty things for which a huge number are needed, because the scribes turn up their noses at these as being unworthy of their time.

One of the very coolest and most wonderful moments of my life came when we were up in the 'attic' - Phil's third floor home office. He had a huge - over 8,000 item - personal library, and he was showing some of us around. He told me to hold out my hands, palms up, and he put a small - about the size of the usual paperback - book in them. The cover was ornately carven, and he then opened the book very carefully and began to turn the pages.

I had everything I could do to not drop the book. The pages were covered with deep black in calligraphy in Urdu; it was a copy of the Qu'uran, written in the ink of squids on pages not of paper, but of paper-thin ivory. About 700 years old, Phil said. He also had examples of everything you mentioned, as well as Japanese 'accordian books', Chinese bamboo books, Persian miniature paintings, and Tibetan leaf books.

So, yes, you get everything... :)

My respect for Phil Barker just went up yet another notch.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;875016
Oh, dear... You take care, and all out very best!!! :(


Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;875018
Hope everything turns out ok.


Thank you, the immediate problem was taken care of. We should learn only tomorrow what has actually happened, though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 23, 2016, 03:32:44 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;875009
All of the above, plus some. Really important documents are engraved on metal plates, parchment is used, and paper very common. You'll also see stacks of wood, leaves, and every imaginable material put together and written on. There is no use of moveable type, however. Block printing is used for cheap and nasty things for which a huge number are needed, because the scribes turn up their noses at these as being unworthy of their time.

One of the very coolest and most wonderful moments of my life came when we were up in the 'attic' - Phil's third floor home office. He had a huge - over 8,000 item - personal library, and he was showing some of us around. He told me to hold out my hands, palms up, and he put a small - about the size of the usual paperback - book in them. The cover was ornately carven, and he then opened the book very carefully and began to turn the pages.

I had everything I could do to not drop the book. The pages were covered with deep black in calligraphy in Urdu; it was a copy of the Qu'uran, written in the ink of squids on pages not of paper, but of paper-thin ivory. About 700 years old, Phil said. He also had examples of everything you mentioned, as well as Japanese 'accordian books', Chinese bamboo books, Persian miniature paintings, and Tibetan leaf books.

So, yes, you get everything... :)


Treasures indeed!!! An extraordinary man, who led an extaordinary life!!! I can see why you value the time you spent with him so(an education unto itself). Thank you once again for sharing. What could be better...? Armor, swords, and books...!!! Excellent

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 23, 2016, 05:16:05 PM
That... third floor study of Phil's was amazing.  I only got to go up there once or twice.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 23, 2016, 09:48:17 PM
Sorry Guys, I just realized that this is the most up to date version of The Humanspace RPG...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/83058579/HUMANSPACE%20EMPIRES%20II.pdf

Enjoy,

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 24, 2016, 04:29:30 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;875074
Sorry Guys, I just realized that this is the most up to date version of The Humanspace RPG...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/83058579/HUMANSPACE%20EMPIRES%20II.pdf

Enjoy,

H;0)

Thanks!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 24, 2016, 06:48:27 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;875032
My respect for Phil Barker just went up yet another notch.

Thank you, the immediate problem was taken care of. We should learn only tomorrow what has actually happened, though.


Working for Phil was incredible; I got to know an entire civilization from his stories about South Asia. And the library! Oh, my! It was a really sad time. getting it all packed up and sold after he passed away. The Islamic collection, including the little ivory Qu'uran, had gone years before; it was bought by a Maylasian businessman to be the foundation of a university library, just like when Phil had helped establish the Ames Asian library at the University of Minnesota.

And thank you for the update; keep us posted, when you can, and all our best!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 24, 2016, 06:52:28 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;875036
Treasures indeed!!! An extraordinary man, who led an extaordinary life!!! I can see why you value the time you spent with him so(an education unto itself). Thank you once again for sharing. What could be better...? Armor, swords, and books...!!! Excellent

H:0)


It was a truly amazing time. I made sure to document everything before it went out the door after he passed away, so that Phil the scholar and savant would not be forgotten. As a F/SF fan, it was truly astounding to be able to touch the foundations of the genre, as well as be part of the foundations of this hobby. My goal, when I first started out with Phil back in '76, was to document it all as best I could - nothing more, and nothing less. I've achieved that; it'll take me the rest of my life to index and catalog it all, but that's what I've always wanted to do. My book is part of that - telling you of a time and a place where we did amazing things with and for an amazing man... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 24, 2016, 06:57:46 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;875047
That... third floor study of Phil's was amazing.  I only got to go up there once or twice.


Yep. it was a very rare instance when we were allowed up into the main part of the house, let alone the third floor. I think I got up there about once a year, maybe twice a year, over all the years we were out there. Pretty much everything 'gaming' stayed in the basement; Phil still had his childhood toy soldiers, and I finally - after over thirty years!!! - got to photograph them after he passed away. And made safety copies of all the ancient photos of him playing out in the yard with his original models of temples and castles that were taken by his dad - the Marmon-Herrington light tanks escorting the mounted knights, with High Priests in command, were wonderful to see... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 24, 2016, 11:31:06 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;875237
Working for Phil was incredible; I got to know an entire civilization from his stories about South Asia. And the library! Oh, my! It was a really sad time. getting it all packed up and sold after he passed away. The Islamic collection, including the little ivory Qu'uran, had gone years before; it was bought by a Maylasian businessman to be the foundation of a university library, just like when Phil had helped establish the Ames Asian library at the University of Minnesota.

And thank you for the update; keep us posted, when you can, and all our best!!!

That was a great man, indeed, though not much else could be said.

As for the update, everybody should be fine in a week. But the medical scare could be foreboding future health issues for the wife. Doctors can't tell, yet, and we hope that wouldn't be the case.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;875238
It was a truly amazing time. I made sure to document everything before it went out the door after he passed away, so that Phil the scholar and savant would not be forgotten. As a F/SF fan, it was truly astounding to be able to touch the foundations of the genre, as well as be part of the foundations of this hobby. My goal, when I first started out with Phil back in '76, was to document it all as best I could - nothing more, and nothing less. I've achieved that; it'll take me the rest of my life to index and catalog it all, but that's what I've always wanted to do. My book is part of that - telling you of a time and a place where we did amazing things with and for an amazing man... :)

I've never been a very good archivist, but I appreciate good archives and am glad that they exist:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;875240
Yep. it was a very rare instance when we were allowed up into the main part of the house, let alone the third floor. I think I got up there about once a year, maybe twice a year, over all the years we were out there. Pretty much everything 'gaming' stayed in the basement; Phil still had his childhood toy soldiers, and I finally - after over thirty years!!! - got to photograph them after he passed away. And made safety copies of all the ancient photos of him playing out in the yard with his original models of temples and castles that were taken by his dad - the Marmon-Herrington light tanks escorting the mounted knights, with High Priests in command, were wonderful to see... :)

I see he knew how to combine different classes of armour;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 24, 2016, 11:53:49 PM
[From AsenRG:]That was a great man, indeed, though not much else could be said.

I'd agree; at some point, you simply run out of superlatives to describe Phil and all his talents and interests. 47 languages, fluent in over half of them; a gifted sculptor and craftsman; an artist and painter; and the creator of a fascinating world.

As for the update, everybody should be fine in a week. But the medical scare could be foreboding future health issues for the wife. Doctors can't tell, yet, and we hope that wouldn't be the case.

And we'll hope so, too! Been here, done this... :(

I've never been a very good archivist, but I appreciate good archives and am glad that they exist:).

Well, I've tried. It's all I really ever wanted to do for Tekumel - document is as it was being created and developed. I'm continuing to move along with the work I started in 1976, and we'll see where we wind up... :)

I see he knew how to combine different classes of armour;)!

:) It's all very Sword and Planet - the little tankettes are in a wedge formation, with the warriors in the middle, and the temples and palaces in the background. I thought that it was all wonderfully fun! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 27, 2016, 01:48:24 PM
Chirine,

A couple of quick questions...In your home games you mentioned you like to combine The EPT rules with the S&G magic rules. Could you please elaborate a bit about it? Also since in the EPT rules the non-humans are really a strong lot. How do Humans add up as far magic/mental power resistance goes to a non-human? Thanks

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 28, 2016, 02:04:20 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;875703
Chirine,

A couple of quick questions...In your home games you mentioned you like to combine The EPT rules with the S&G magic rules. Could you please elaborate a bit about it? Also since in the EPT rules the non-humans are really a strong lot. How do Humans add up as far magic/mental power resistance goes to a non-human? Thanks

H:0)


Hm. Well, let's take a run at this.

Phil did EPT more or less 'on spec' for Bill Hoyt, who sold the option to TSR, and so there was a very strong emphasis on EPT being as much like / as compatible as possible with OD&D/WhiteBox/whatever it's called these days. Phil got his original impetus from Dave, and the polish on the cannonball was from Gary. So, EPT is basicially OD&D, but with some wrinkles - as both Gary and Dave told me, at various times and much later on, "EPT was the game they'd wished they'd written."

At the same time, Phil also did a neat little board game called "War of Wizards", which was all about sorcerers doing magical duels in the arena. (Always a crowd-pleaser, these.) It had a huge spell corpora of really cool stuff, and was a real eye-opener for how a magic system could be done - and keep in mind, D&D fans, when you talk about 'Vancian magic', Phil was a friend of Jack Vance and drew the first maps of the Dying Earth for him. WoW is a very good way to learn about how Phil thought magic should work in Tekumel, and was kind of unhappy with having to "dumb it down" in EPT.

In the very late 1970s, and very early 1980s, he started to write a new RPG, which he thought would be a more faithful reflection of how he thought Tekumel worked. He abandoned it about half-way through, as the thing was looking to go over a thousand pages in manuscript; he used the same material in a new RPG, which became "Swords and Glory"; he basically did a cut-and-paste to move all the world setting stuff into what became the Sourcebook (vol. I), the playing rules into the Player's Guide (vol. II), and the uncompleted Referee's Guide (vol. III).

S&G's magic system is very much the same as WoW's, with many of the same spells. Phil liked to use the S&G/WoW spells in his campaign, and when he used any rules at all, used the EPT rules for melee's and such. I think we used S&G's combat system maybe a half-dozen times, and then Phil just sort of gave up on it. The magic system, on the other hand, worked out fine and we all liked it.

So, I thought that if it was good enough for Phil to use, that's what I'd do. As my two campaigns had to interface with his two in his meta-game, it all worked out well for the players as well as for us GMs.

This is why I can suggest Jeff Dee's "Bethorm" as a good way to play the way Phil played in his campaigns. It's a very good reflection of how games out at Phil's were played, all in one package.

Does this help? Moving on...

Humans are more 'magical' then most of the non-human races, but again there are differences. I'd hate to run up against a Pe Choi or Tinaliya magic-user, for example. Other non-humans don't use magic at all, and you have to consider all of them on a case by case basis. Likewise, the non-human vary in 'toughness' in combat terms, with some (like the Shen and Ahoggya) being very, very tough opponents, and some (like the Swamp Folk) much less so. Phil rolled up a batch of non-humans, same as for humans, for his NPCs, so they were all individuals; he very rarely used 'batch' NPCs, unless they were something like a half-dozen undead or something like that>

Again, am I being helpful here?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 28, 2016, 02:45:02 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;875822
Hm. Well, let's take a run at this.

Phil did EPT more or less 'on spec' for Bill Hoyt, who sold the option to TSR, and so there was a very strong emphasis on EPT being as much like / as compatible as possible with OD&D/WhiteBox/whatever it's called these days. Phil got his original impetus from Dave, and the polish on the cannonball was from Gary. So, EPT is basicially OD&D, but with some wrinkles - as both Gary and Dave told me, at various times and much later on, "EPT was the game they'd wished they'd written."

At the same time, Phil also did a neat little board game called "War of Wizards", which was all about sorcerers doing magical duels in the arena. (Always a crowd-pleaser, these.) It had a huge spell corpora of really cool stuff, and was a real eye-opener for how a magic system could be done - and keep in mind, D&D fans, when you talk about 'Vancian magic', Phil was a friend of Jack Vance and drew the first maps of the Dying Earth for him. WoW is a very good way to learn about how Phil thought magic should work in Tekumel, and was kind of unhappy with having to "dumb it down" in EPT.

In the very late 1970s, and very early 1980s, he started to write a new RPG, which he thought would be a more faithful reflection of how he thought Tekumel worked. He abandoned it about half-way through, as the thing was looking to go over a thousand pages in manuscript; he used the same material in a new RPG, which became "Swords and Glory"; he basically did a cut-and-paste to move all the world setting stuff into what became the Sourcebook (vol. I), the playing rules into the Player's Guide (vol. II), and the uncompleted Referee's Guide (vol. III).

S&G's magic system is very much the same as WoW's, with many of the same spells. Phil liked to use the S&G/WoW spells in his campaign, and when he used any rules at all, used the EPT rules for melee's and such. I think we used S&G's combat system maybe a half-dozen times, and then Phil just sort of gave up on it. The magic system, on the other hand, worked out fine and we all liked it.

So, I thought that if it was good enough for Phil to use, that's what I'd do. As my two campaigns had to interface with his two in his meta-game, it all worked out well for the players as well as for us GMs.

This is why I can suggest Jeff Dee's "Bethorm" as a good way to play the way Phil played in his campaigns. It's a very good reflection of how games out at Phil's were played, all in one package.

Does this help? Moving on...

Humans are more 'magical' then most of the non-human races, but again there are differences. I'd hate to run up against a Pe Choi or Tinaliya magic-user, for example. Other non-humans don't use magic at all, and you have to consider all of them on a case by case basis. Likewise, the non-human vary in 'toughness' in combat terms, with some (like the Shen and Ahoggya) being very, very tough opponents, and some (like the Swamp Folk) much less so. Phil rolled up a batch of non-humans, same as for humans, for his NPCs, so they were all individuals; he very rarely used 'batch' NPCs, unless they were something like a half-dozen undead or something like that>

Again, am I being helpful here?


Good, thank you. After reading your response, I think I made you repeat the same thing twice...I may have to reread the thread!!! So just a follow-up...Which beings on Tekumel are the most resistant to magic/mind attacks? Thanks again

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 29, 2016, 01:51:06 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;875947
Good, thank you. After reading your response, I think I made you repeat the same thing twice...I may have to reread the thread!!! So just a follow-up...Which beings on Tekumel are the most resistant to magic/mind attacks? Thanks again

H:0)

 Not a problem; it's what I'm here for. :)

Based on personal experience? Ahoggya, followed by Shen. I would consider Mihalli very hard to deal with, but we saw them to rarely that I don't have enough data to offer an opinion. We also tended to ask them first, as their even showing up was such an exceptional event that we tried to find out what they were up to. Sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn't. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 29, 2016, 07:37:46 AM
So at The Professor's table was it for the most part "rules light"? Also did he have any "house rules"? How was your gaming experience different than with Mr Arneson. Thanks

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 29, 2016, 02:04:50 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;876040
So at The Professor's table was it for the most part "rules light"? Also did he have any "house rules"? How was your gaming experience different than with Mr Arneson. Thanks

H:0)


'Rules light' - Phil was very, very 'rules light' most of the time - and I'm talking years, here, not over several months. As Gronan mentioned, Phil used EPT right out of the book for the first couple of years; when I started in '76, we used EPT 'straight' for a couple of years, until Phil knew we weren't going to 'rules lawyer' him or try to wreck the world. I was the last 'straight' EPT character rolled up in his campaign; Vrisa (Kathy Marsall) and Vidlakte (Ken Fletcher), were just about the first ones rolled up on S&G. Phil used S&G 'as is' for about six months, and then faded into his 'you roll dice, I roll dice' method; we'd have to know our stats, abilities, and skills, give him the numbers, and then roll d100. We played that way for something like a decade.

'House rules' - I think that there were very, very few. "What you see is what you get" on your miniature, and "Chirine will make you your miniature" - everybody was represented by a miniature for the 'tactical display'. And I think that may have been it. I'll look at my notes.

Arneson/Barker - Very different!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcSWsdTdYGI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcSWsdTdYGI)

This is what an Arneson game was like; very fast-paced, lots of utter chaos, and you never were very sure what was actually happening. You really had to stay on your toes, and keep very alert, as Dave would keep right on going without you if you didn't pay attention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-E5J6LNUBU&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-E5J6LNUBU&feature=related)

This is what a Barker game was like. Very detailed, very action-adventure, very well-thought out. His pace was much slower, but then you didn't mind because you were getting a lot of information about a totally alien world. With Dave, we already knew most all of the tropes; with Phil, we didn't.

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 29, 2016, 03:17:26 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;876078
'Rules light' - Phil was very, very 'rules light' most of the time - and I'm talking years, here, not over several months. As Gronan mentioned, Phil used EPT right out of the book for the first couple of years; when I started in '76, we used EPT 'straight' for a couple of years, until Phil knew we weren't going to 'rules lawyer' him or try to wreck the world. I was the last 'straight' EPT character rolled up in his campaign; Vrisa (Kathy Marsall) and Vidlakte (Ken Fletcher), were just about the first ones rolled up on S&G. Phil used S&G 'as is' for about six months, and then faded into his 'you roll dice, I roll dice' method; we'd have to know our stats, abilities, and skills, give him the numbers, and then roll d100. We played that way for something like a decade.

'House rules' - I think that there were very, very few. "What you see is what you get" on your miniature, and "Chirine will make you your miniature" - everybody was represented by a miniature for the 'tactical display'. And I think that may have been it. I'll look at my notes.

Arneson/Barker - Very different!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcSWsdTdYGI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcSWsdTdYGI)

This is what an Arneson game was like; very fast-paced, lots of utter chaos, and you never were very sure what was actually happening. You really had to stay on your toes, and keep very alert, as Dave would keep right on going without you if you didn't pay attention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-E5J6LNUBU&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-E5J6LNUBU&feature=related)

This is what a Barker game was like. Very detailed, very action-adventure, very well-thought out. His pace was much slower, but then you didn't mind because you were getting a lot of information about a totally alien world. With Dave, we already knew most all of the tropes; with Phil, we didn't.

Does this help?


Help...??? Most enlightening!!! Excellent, thank you.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: RunningLaser on January 29, 2016, 03:21:07 PM
That duel video was great, thanks for posting it:)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 30, 2016, 01:39:30 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;876082
Help...??? Most enlightening!!! Excellent, thank you.

H:0)


You're welcome! I worry that I'm not getting you the information you're looking for, so this is a relief! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 30, 2016, 01:48:59 AM
Quote from: RunningLaser;876083
That duel video was great, thanks for posting it:)


You're welcome! That's what Dave's games always seemed to be like; very chaotic, lots of lovely 'period detail', and a plot line that just never quit - with a surprise twist, too.

I have one for the games I got to play with Gary, in the 1980s:

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXET1kvEOAY (http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXET1kvEOAY)

Gary's games always seemed just as detailed, just as much madcap fun, but he always seemed more 'organized' then Dave did. Phil in contrast to the two of them, was always more 'meta-plot' / 'meta-game' driven, as he had this world-setting and the history of same to work in.  Both Dave and Gary had their world-settings, of course, but the two of them both seemed to have a more 'whmsical' attitude to the thing then Phil did.

I don't know if it'll ever be possible to put this into works, hence the video clips...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 31, 2016, 03:39:56 AM
May I solicit people's opinions? Here's a photo from today's blog update, and I'd be interested in hearing what RPG players think of the lighting and if I should ink the tiles with a stonework pattern...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 31, 2016, 05:33:58 AM
The lighting is great, sufficiently creepy to make it clear it's the Underworld:).

Stonework pattern is highly unnecessary, IMO. You don't see stuff all that clearly, and for details of similar scale, you'd count on the Referee's information anyway;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 31, 2016, 11:39:34 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;876237
May I solicit people's opinions? Here's a photo from today's blog update, and I'd be interested in hearing what RPG players think of the lighting and if I should ink the tiles with a stonework pattern...


The lighting is good. Once you put up your "block" walls, I don't think it will be necessary for the floor to have a stonework pattern...Unless, your need for detail calls for it!!!😉 I envy your crew. They are really given a treat everytime they come to game. I love it. Those Chlen carts...awesome!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on January 31, 2016, 12:11:18 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;876237
May I solicit people's opinions? Here's a photo from today's blog update, and I'd be interested in hearing what RPG players think of the lighting and if I should ink the tiles with a stonework pattern...

Well that is fucking cool!

I lean towards adding a simple stonework pattern. If it is not too much trouble it might be worth seeing a small section with a pattern to see how it compares.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: yosemitemike on January 31, 2016, 07:46:22 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;876237
May I solicit people's opinions? Here's a photo from today's blog update, and I'd be interested in hearing what RPG players think of the lighting and if I should ink the tiles with a stonework pattern...


The lighting makes the stonework look a bit flat and two dimensional in that picture.  I think a stonework pattern would make it more visually interesting.  It's hard to say without seeing it in person though.  Things look different in photos.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 31, 2016, 09:25:31 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;876239
The lighting is great, sufficiently creepy to make it clear it's the Underworld:).

Stonework pattern is highly unnecessary, IMO. You don't see stuff all that clearly, and for details of similar scale, you'd count on the Referee's information anyway;).


Thank you!

Very good point, too. I am always having to deal with this issue in my railway modeling, where things like brickwork get a lot of attention paid to them in order that they don't look over-scale. What I'm thinking of is something to help hide the figures' bases; I normally ink flagstones over a light stone-colored paint for these, as it helps a lot to hide the 'lead pillows' that a lot of figures are standing on.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 31, 2016, 09:30:57 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;876261
The lighting is good. Once you put up your "block" walls, I don't think it will be necessary for the floor to have a stonework pattern...Unless, your need for detail calls for it!!!😉 I envy your crew. They are really given a treat everytime they come to game. I love it. Those Chlen carts...awesome!!!

H:0)


Thank you!

Agreed about the blocks. They are all 'blank', being varnished wood - IKEA again, their 'FUNDERA' sets of a 100 each - and so I''d like to keep the same look to the thing.

I am trying not to be as obsessive-compulsive here as I am in my railway modelling. When I was last in Wiltshire, I did a photo survey of the surviving Brunel station at Culham, which is the twin to the demolished station building at Minety, which I am modeling. I did color-matching for the individual bricks... :o

This what I like to give my players, and it's worth it when they gasp... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 31, 2016, 09:32:44 PM
Quote from: Bren;876264
Well that is fucking cool!

I lean towards adding a simple stonework pattern. If it is not too much trouble it might be worth seeing a small section with a pattern to see how it compares.


Thank you!

Great advice, too. I usually use a fine-point Sharpie to make the flagstone patterns that I do on the miniature's bases, but I agree with you - it is not simple, and looks very 'busy'. I think you're right - sample time!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 31, 2016, 09:38:09 PM
Quote from: yosemitemike;876322
The lighting makes the stonework look a bit flat and two dimensional in that picture.  I think a stonework pattern would make it more visually interesting.  It's hard to say without seeing it in person though.  Things look different in photos.


Nope, you have it exactly! The tiles are very flat and two-dimensional; all they are at the moment are flat MDF with a coat of light stone colored paint. I'd like to do something to make them look a little 'cooler', but I'm not jumping up and down with glee at the thought of doing my usual hand-drawn-with-a-Sharpie flagstones - there's like a square meter or so of MDF to do.

I thought, this afternoon, that I might try an old theater trick; lightly dab on a slightly darker shade of paint with a coarse sponge, to add some 'visual texture' to the flats. It'd add some visual interest, but not be as overpowering as some of the treatments and textures I've used in the past...

Sample time, as the man said... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 31, 2016, 10:27:04 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;876349
Nope, you have it exactly! The tiles are very flat and two-dimensional; all they are at the moment are flat MDF with a coat of light stone colored paint. I'd like to do something to make them look a little 'cooler', but I'm not jumping up and down with glee at the thought of doing my usual hand-drawn-with-a-Sharpie flagstones - there's like a square meter or so of MDF to do.

I thought, this afternoon, that I might try an old theater trick; lightly dab on a slightly darker shade of paint with a coarse sponge, to add some 'visual texture' to the flats. It'd add some visual interest, but not be as overpowering as some of the treatments and textures I've used in the past...

Sample time, as the man said... :)


Your teaching me the "three foot standard" has made my model railroading considerably less stressful.

Although my finest moment was my response to somebody detailing the underside of his gondola car:

"If somebody can see the underside of one of my gons, things have gone seriously wrong."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on January 31, 2016, 10:32:04 PM
I always want more cover for Bolt Action (Warhammer 1940k as the grognards call it).  I was so looking forward to Mantic's modular brick terrain for Mars Attacks but sadly it's got peg holes, and solid windows with modern looking metal frames.  

One thing I've contemplated doing would be to roll out a thin layer of plasticine on a thick board and impress brick or stonework into it in negative with a small tool.  Then clamp battens around the sides, seal the corners, and pour plaster into the resulting tray.  It's a combination of a technique I saw in an old doll house book and one Mongoose showed in Battle Field evolution where they were making thin sheets of plaster and then scoring and breaking them to make walls for buildings.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 31, 2016, 11:11:56 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;876364
Your teaching me the "three foot standard" has made my model railroading considerably less stressful.

Although my finest moment was my response to somebody detailing the underside of his gondola car:

"If somebody can see the underside of one of my gons, things have gone seriously wrong."


Well, it's a sad but true fact that most of the time, a viewer is never going to get closer then three feet to most of one's model railway. I also liked John Allen's trick of super-detailing one or two cars, and putting them on a siding right up front where people could see them. The running stock was less detailed, so they didn't get broken and have to be repaired.

On the other hand, there's always Pendon:

http://www.pendonmuseum.com/ (http://www.pendonmuseum.com/)

I face in the direction of Long Wittenham three times daily, and wish that I could ever be that good. I got to visit the place, and I literally had to sit down with me head between my legs to stop swooning. The shop is even better; I took home a suitcase of stuff from there!

(So, wadda ya think of the table? It's one of the games I was going to be taking to Lake Geneva, next month.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 31, 2016, 11:16:26 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;876365
I always want more cover for Bolt Action (Warhammer 1940k as the grognards call it).  I was so looking forward to Mantic's modular brick terrain for Mars Attacks but sadly it's got peg holes, and solid windows with modern looking metal frames.  

One thing I've contemplated doing would be to roll out a thin layer of plasticine on a thick board and impress brick or stonework into it in negative with a small tool.  Then clamp battens around the sides, seal the corners, and pour plaster into the resulting tray.  It's a combination of a technique I saw in an old doll house book and one Mongoose showed in Battle Field evolution where they were making thin sheets of plaster and then scoring and breaking them to make walls for buildings.


Great ideas, here. I have a pile of the old 'Linka' molds that I've used a lot, as well as the plastic kits that are sold in the 1/35th market. My only thought about the plaster castings is if they'd survive the 'enthusiastic; hands of some of my players - I have to think a lot about survivability. I used to use dental paster in my molds, as it's a lot tougher then the Hydrocal I use on the railway...

I also looked at the classic 'building papers' that I love to use in my railway models - however, with a square meter to cover, it's just too expensive...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on February 01, 2016, 05:34:21 AM
What I've done when modelling stuff for wargaming is photograph or scan an original of the surface I was going to be needing and upload it as a JPEG file. You can then print it out on to multiple sheets of paper and using thin glue paste it down on to a firm surface (the mdf sheets you are using) to give a realistic look to the surface. It works for posters and brick walls as well and can be cheaper than railway modelling paper sheets.

Nigel
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on February 01, 2016, 09:10:56 AM
Did you have to special order the albino chlen in your picture from Gidj and Sons? :D

Since I mentioned them, did you ever meet Gidj or any of the Sons?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 01, 2016, 12:53:49 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;876404
What I've done when modelling stuff for wargaming is photograph or scan an original of the surface I was going to be needing and upload it as a JPEG file. You can then print it out on to multiple sheets of paper and using thin glue paste it down on to a firm surface (the mdf sheets you are using) to give a realistic look to the surface. It works for posters and brick walls as well and can be cheaper than railway modelling paper sheets.

Nigel


Agreed! I'm hoarding the last of my building papers after a trip to the local hobby shop, where the stuff is going for silly prices. Much, much cheaper on your side of the pond!!! The plastic sheets from Evergreen are cheaper, but too regular for what I'm thinking of. The Missus, Queen of the Internet, took a look at your suggestion and has been wallowing in downloaded textures. We have a 27" color roll printer, so this might be the way to go. I think I'd want to coat the paper, though, for durability.

Time to experiment, and thank you! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 01, 2016, 12:58:23 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;876423
Did you have to special order the albino chlen in your picture from Gidj and Sons? :D

Since I mentioned them, did you ever meet Gidj or any of the Sons?


Not really; it's just in the flat white I use to primer everything. It gives the colors a nice little 'bounce', as Phil said that the colors on Tekumel are a little mode intense due to the way people like to decorate and to the brighter sunlight.

Yes, we did, on a number of occasions. We did some business back and forth, every now and then, when we had something to trade that they liked. And we dealt with them on other issues and matters, as well; something about having a device for visiting other worlds...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on February 01, 2016, 03:45:42 PM
I'd seal the printed out texture sheets with a matt varnish (WalMart did very cheap cans in Virginia) to make sure it stayed in good condition.

Nigel
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 02, 2016, 01:39:54 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;876473
I'd seal the printed out texture sheets with a matt varnish (WalMart did very cheap cans in Virginia) to make sure it stayed in good condition.

Nigel


Agreed! I have a laminator, but I don't think I can get matt finish sheets for it. Varnish, on the other hand, I have by the gallon can... :)

I'm more worried about durability then anything else; these MDF sections get stored like a deck of cards on the shelves, so they're going to get more wear from being taken out and put back then from actual game play. I think.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on February 02, 2016, 07:28:06 PM
What about pouring latex or something into a plasticine mould.  That would be stronger than plaster but not cheaper.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 03, 2016, 02:25:51 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;876679
What about pouring latex or something into a plasticine mould.  That would be stronger than plaster but not cheaper.


Thank you for the idea! I've done this kind of molding, with various materials including resin, so It's worth a try. Expense is not really an issue; I do a lot of model building, so I have a lot of this kind of thing in stock in the workshop. I'm doing this 'out of inventory', as it were.

What I'm trying to balance is the time factor in detailing the tiles, the durability in play, and how much storage room they'd take when done. I think some experiments are in order... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on February 03, 2016, 08:56:08 PM
Okay, so, put balls of plasticine down to make a stonework pattern and pour an inch of latex into it.  When it cures use the latex as a mould for thinner layers of a cheaper material.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 03, 2016, 09:24:50 PM
Re building papers getting to silly prices...

There's a software package called "Model Builder" for $40 that can be used to make paper buildings in about a dozen different wargame and model railroad scales, or it can be used to just make sheets of brick or stone (or whatever) paper.  The included textures are great, and you can import other textures as well (including photographs if you like).

I think it's better for making texture sheets that you put on a gatorboard core building and finish off with Grandt Line windows and doors, myself.

A bit of initial outlay, yes, but if you have the large printer already, might be worth it.

http://www.modeltrainsoftware.com/model-builder.html
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 04, 2016, 02:23:38 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;876848
Okay, so, put balls of plasticine down to make a stonework pattern and pour an inch of latex into it.  When it cures use the latex as a mould for thinner layers of a cheaper material.


Quite so; I've used this to make my cobblestone streets for the railway, where I have to inset rails into the paving.

What I'm after with the underworld tiles is something simpler and more 'playable', and maybe a lot less detailed. Chirine's First Law Of Miniatures is in full play here, as it's hard to kill flat sections of MDF. The final result has to look good in photos, be easy to store, and be very durable.

Experiments on the weekend; photos to follow...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on February 04, 2016, 02:28:11 PM
Man, tough audience :D

Okay, have you ever seen what happens to the surface of medium density fiber board when you soak it a bit?  I'm not sure the 1/4 inch stuff would bubble up like that, its got a harder, shinier surface.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 04, 2016, 02:37:23 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;876853
Re building papers getting to silly prices...

There's a software package called "Model Builder" for $40 that can be used to make paper buildings in about a dozen different wargame and model railroad scales, or it can be used to just make sheets of brick or stone (or whatever) paper.  The included textures are great, and you can import other textures as well (including photographs if you like).

I think it's better for making texture sheets that you put on a gatorboard core building and finish off with Grandt Line windows and doors, myself.

A bit of initial outlay, yes, but if you have the large printer already, might be worth it.

http://www.modeltrainsoftware.com/model-builder.html


It's the same stack of building papers in Hub Hobby - Richfield that have been thre since you and I were going there; they just up the price as the years go by. Nobody buys the stuff - old technology, as laser-cut MDF is now all the rage.

(Which may be an option - must talk to TRE Games about this; already on Tim about doing me doors...)

I'll look at the software - great suggestion, thank you! - and see if we like it. I have a couple of programs intended for gaming, like "Dunjinni", which have similar features. The mammoth printer will do 27" wide by 12' long, so doing textures will be relatively easy; I have an Exacto knife, and I know how to use it.

The dilemma, for me, is how much detail do I want to put in to this project. My time and energy is very limited these days, and I don't like to waste either on projects that will make no real difference to what I do. For example, I scrapped the Barsoomian flyers that Paul Stormberg wanted me to make for this year's Gary Con, as I realized that "Warlords of Mars" - while a good game - is not the kind of game that I am interested in building for or for running. I had started to make flyers for a man-to-man / being to being style of skirmish play, and then reread the rules; it's a mass combat and very abstract game, which is not what I like to play. ("Warriors of the Red Planet" would have been better, but would have fallen outside the remit of "Legends of Wargaming" and not been allowed.)

My problem, as I see it, is that I am not a 'gamer', as the term of art seems to be presently defined. I am, and have always been, a model builder who likes to put on games to show off his work. I don't know if that's viable, any more; I had a very, very bad moment a while back when one of my long-time gamers blandly assured me that "anyone who does miniatures is a nut-case" and "weird". Well, okay, I thought, then why are you here?

>Shrug<
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on February 04, 2016, 07:45:09 PM
Yeah, that sounds a bit like me.  That was the appeal of Warhammer for a number of years.  It gave me stuff to build and paint.  I'd have done just about anything else if anyone around here would have been willing.  Hell, in many ways my store is about trying to create that kind of community that wants to do something that isn't ridiculously over-priced and designed to milk every dime out of you that it can.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 04, 2016, 07:50:03 PM
Uncle since you are here, let me keep you occupied if I may...I was doing a bit of reading...I came across some writings about some of the other deities of the other empires of Tekumel. Now some of these foriegn nations do worship Pavar's Twenty. Some also have other deities that exhibit similar aspects of the Twenty.

For example in Mu'ugalavya, they have temples dedicated to Vhimula(May His Flame Burn Ever Bright) and the others of Pavar's Pantheon. They also worship Hrsh(who seems to be an amalgam of Vhimula, Karakan, and Ksarul).

In Salarvya, we have The Twenty. Also Shiringgayi(said to be a mixture of Avanthe and Dlamelish).

Lastly in Livyanu, there are The Shadow Gods.

Are these amalgams actually seperate beings, or actually one of the Twenty that have decided to be seen in these lands one way or the other?

Also would you have any intresting tidbits about The Shadow Gods...Thank you

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 04, 2016, 08:31:20 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;876944
It's the same stack of building papers in Hub Hobby - Richfield that have been thre since you and I were going there; they just up the price as the years go by.


And I thought Stale Model Supplies was the only place that pulled that routine.  Heck, SMS has old McKean kits from the 80s priced like new Red Caboose kits.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;876944
The dilemma, for me, is how much detail do I want to put in to this project. My time and energy is very limited these days, and I don't like to waste either on projects that will make no real difference to what I do.


I find myself in a similar situation.  That's why if you use it a good bit, I think the Model Builder software is worth it... click on a scale, click on a brick/stone/siding/etc pattern, drag the white corner square to fill the screen, and print.  Hey nonny nonny.  We don't have time to fart around, us.


Quote from: chirine ba kal;876944
I had a very, very bad moment a while back when one of my long-time gamers blandly assured me that "anyone who does miniatures is a nut-case" and "weird".


I have the answer for people like that.  Here, shoots a little to the left.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: yosemitemike on February 05, 2016, 01:27:11 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;876349
Nope, you have it exactly! The tiles are very flat and two-dimensional; all they are at the moment are flat MDF with a coat of light stone colored paint. I'd like to do something to make them look a little 'cooler', but I'm not jumping up and down with glee at the thought of doing my usual hand-drawn-with-a-Sharpie flagstones - there's like a square meter or so of MDF to do.


You could add a sand texture and then dry brush it to give it depth.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 05, 2016, 01:57:24 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;876967
Yeah, that sounds a bit like me.  That was the appeal of Warhammer for a number of years.  It gave me stuff to build and paint.  I'd have done just about anything else if anyone around here would have been willing.  Hell, in many ways my store is about trying to create that kind of community that wants to do something that isn't ridiculously over-priced and designed to milk every dime out of you that it can.


I'd agree with that philosophy. I've gotten really tired by NEW! LATEST! products where all the stuff the company sold you last year is now obsolete and NOT APPROVED FOR OFFICIALLY SANCTIONED PLAY! A fair bit of stuff in the basement is now pushing forty, and still gets used in games.

Sigh.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 05, 2016, 02:08:55 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;876968
Uncle since you are here, let me keep you occupied if I may...I was doing a bit of reading...I came across some writings about some of the other deities of the other empires of Tekumel. Now some of these foriegn nations do worship Pavar's Twenty. Some also have other deities that exhibit similar aspects of the Twenty.

For example in Mu'ugalavya, they have temples dedicated to Vhimula(May His Flame Burn Ever Bright) and the others of Pavar's Pantheon. They also worship Hrsh(who seems to be an amalgam of Vhimula, Karakan, and Ksarul).

In Salarvya, we have The Twenty. Also Shiringgayi(said to be a mixture of Avanthe and Dlamelish).

Lastly in Livyanu, there are The Shadow Gods.

Are these amalgams actually seperate beings, or actually one of the Twenty that have decided to be seen in these lands one way or the other?

Also would you have any intresting tidbits about The Shadow Gods...Thank you

H:0)


Well, I'd look in both 'Ebon Bindings' (if you can find it) and S&G I where Phil talks about it pretty extensively. There are two ways to approach this - besides calling me on the phone and me talking your ear off for an hour or two...

Philosophically, the gods are the gods; we have no real idea what they are, although it's been made pretty clear over the year that they are very advanced beings to like to amuse themselves with the affairs of us mortals. There are all sorts of variations on the themes of the Twenty in other empires, and the way that we approached them was like Lord Hrsh - who was, in Phil's campaign, mainly a mix of Vimuhla and Hru'u with a dash of Karakan and Ksarul thrown in to keep it interesting. Same thing for all four of Pavar's Ladies -in Salarvaya she's all in one, and a real party girl.

Phil was very upfront about keeping the gods mysterious; he felt that since they didn't have any of the same concerns or goals s humanity did, they should always be like either Lovecraft's or Howard's - there as plot devices.

Now, in game terms, all that we know for sure is that when we scream in panic for Divine Intervention, Something shows up and rolls a reaction check and we see what happens. We have no idea what the Something is, nor do we have any idea why it's taking an interest in what we're doing. The gods, are there to provide excuses for adventures, based on the intrigues and meddlesome doings of their worshippers.

As for details, S&G I has the list of the Livyani Shadow Gods; Phil also did a monograph on the Yan Koryani gods, and there are individual articles on the various temples. If you can't get any of those - and they may be very hard to find, we can talk about this some more. Let me know what you have, and we'll go from there...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 05, 2016, 02:14:27 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;876979
And I thought Stale Model Supplies was the only place that pulled that routine.  Heck, SMS has old McKean kits from the 80s priced like new Red Caboose kits.

I find myself in a similar situation.  That's why if you use it a good bit, I think the Model Builder software is worth it... click on a scale, click on a brick/stone/siding/etc pattern, drag the white corner square to fill the screen, and print.  Hey nonny nonny.  We don't have time to fart around, us.

I have the answer for people like that.  Here, shoots a little to the left.


1. And they still do it, too; it makes the inventory worth more money, I guess...

2. We looked at the software, and of course it only runs on newer PCs. We're Mac based, so only the 'brickyard' add-on will run on our machines. Sample time! :)

3. Yep. And he was sitting in the game room playing in one of my games at the time, too. He's had a few 'social gaffes' like that, of late; my personal favorite was when I had to wear an orthopedic boot for a while for my attack of gout, and he told me that he thought that I was "milking it". Well, thank you, I thought; I can't take painkillers due to possible adverse interactions with my other medications, so I have to admit that I was not amused...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 05, 2016, 02:16:26 AM
Quote from: yosemitemike;877011
You could add a sand texture and then dry brush it to give it depth.


Oh! Hadn't thought of this; I do use this technique on the bases I use for my miniatures, and it looks pretty good.

My only concern would be having the sand texture rub off when the tiles get stacked and put away. Hmmm. Experiment time, I think... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: yosemitemike on February 05, 2016, 04:28:02 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;877015
Oh! Hadn't thought of this; I do use this technique on the bases I use for my miniatures, and it looks pretty good.

My only concern would be having the sand texture rub off when the tiles get stacked and put away. Hmmm. Experiment time, I think... :)


It holds up a lot better if you put a few coats of matte varnish on it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 05, 2016, 06:32:43 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;877013
Well, I'd look in both 'Ebon Bindings' (if you can find it) and S&G I where Phil talks about it pretty extensively. There are two ways to approach this - besides calling me on the phone and me talking your ear off for an hour or two...

Philosophically, the gods are the gods; we have no real idea what they are, although it's been made pretty clear over the year that they are very advanced beings to like to amuse themselves with the affairs of us mortals. There are all sorts of variations on the themes of the Twenty in other empires, and the way that we approached them was like Lord Hrsh - who was, in Phil's campaign, mainly a mix of Vimuhla and Hru'u with a dash of Karakan and Ksarul thrown in to keep it interesting. Same thing for all four of Pavar's Ladies -in Salarvaya she's all in one, and a real party girl.

Phil was very upfront about keeping the gods mysterious; he felt that since they didn't have any of the same concerns or goals s humanity did, they should always be like either Lovecraft's or Howard's - there as plot devices.

Now, in game terms, all that we know for sure is that when we scream in panic for Divine Intervention, Something shows up and rolls a reaction check and we see what happens. We have no idea what the Something is, nor do we have any idea why it's taking an interest in what we're doing. The gods, are there to provide excuses for adventures, based on the intrigues and meddlesome doings of their worshippers.

As for details, S&G I has the list of the Livyani Shadow Gods; Phil also did a monograph on the Yan Koryani gods, and there are individual articles on the various temples. If you can't get any of those - and they may be very hard to find, we can talk about this some more. Let me know what you have, and we'll go from there...


BTW, I am really glad that Bethorm had a list of the foreign gods, and which of the Twenty are mixed into them:D! Without it, my campaign, which started in Livyanu, might have strayed further from the original setting than I would have liked. That was really handy, and now I'm slowly digesting the S&G1 contents;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 05, 2016, 11:42:18 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;877013
Well, I'd look in both 'Ebon Bindings' (if you can find it) and S&G I where Phil talks about it pretty extensively. There are two ways to approach this - besides calling me on the phone and me talking your ear off for an hour or two...

Philosophically, the gods are the gods; we have no real idea what they are, although it's been made pretty clear over the year that they are very advanced beings to like to amuse themselves with the affairs of us mortals. There are all sorts of variations on the themes of the Twenty in other empires, and the way that we approached them was like Lord Hrsh - who was, in Phil's campaign, mainly a mix of Vimuhla and Hru'u with a dash of Karakan and Ksarul thrown in to keep it interesting. Same thing for all four of Pavar's Ladies -in Salarvaya she's all in one, and a real party girl.

Phil was very upfront about keeping the gods mysterious; he felt that since they didn't have any of the same concerns or goals s humanity did, they should always be like either Lovecraft's or Howard's - there as plot devices.

Now, in game terms, all that we know for sure is that when we scream in panic for Divine Intervention, Something shows up and rolls a reaction check and we see what happens. We have no idea what the Something is, nor do we have any idea why it's taking an interest in what we're doing. The gods, are there to provide excuses for adventures, based on the intrigues and meddlesome doings of their worshippers.

As for details, S&G I has the list of the Livyani Shadow Gods; Phil also did a monograph on the Yan Koryani gods, and there are individual articles on the various temples. If you can't get any of those - and they may be very hard to find, we can talk about this some more. Let me know what you have, and we'll go from there...


Thank you. I will plague you with questions as needed. I was thinking about it. Who am I, to question The Gods? They do as they please. Appear to me as they wish...My only job is to honor them nobly...!!!

In game terms, I had been wondering. Your answer clears things up. I will delve deeper into my archives for the needed lists, etc. I will hound you as questions arise good Sir.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 05, 2016, 01:38:26 PM
Quote from: yosemitemike;877022
It holds up a lot better if you put a few coats of matte varnish on it.


Agreed; as I mentioned, I do this on figure bases. The issue comes under Chirine's First Law Of Miniatures (which I should have spelled out, earlier):

"No matter how good the paint job on the figure, or how good the detail, there will always be somebody there to drop the thing on the floor for you."

Hence my worries about durability.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 05, 2016, 01:40:00 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;877035
BTW, I am really glad that Bethorm had a list of the foreign gods, and which of the Twenty are mixed into them:D! Without it, my campaign, which started in Livyanu, might have strayed further from the original setting than I would have liked. That was really handy, and now I'm slowly digesting the S&G1 contents;).


And there you go - yet another reason why "Bethorm" is a handy book! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 05, 2016, 01:42:57 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;877061
Thank you. I will plague you with questions as needed. I was thinking about it. Who am I, to question The Gods? They do as they please. Appear to me as they wish...My only job is to honor them nobly...!!!

In game terms, I had been wondering. Your answer clears things up. I will delve deeper into my archives for the needed lists, etc. I will hound you as questions arise good Sir.

H:0)


As always, you're very welcome; I just thought that you should get the information straight from Phil. We very rarely dealt with the gods in the campaign; we spent a lot more time fooling around with the various greater and lesser 'demons', as we had a meddlesome Livyani wizard (Eyloa) around a lot in the beginning... :rolleyes:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 05, 2016, 02:09:46 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;877080
As always, you're very welcome; I just thought that you should get the information straight from Phil. We very rarely dealt with the gods in the campaign; we spent a lot more time fooling around with the various greater and lesser 'demons', as we had a meddlesome Livyani wizard (Eyloa) around a lot in the beginning... :rolleyes:


Yes, you have mentioned that troublesome Wizard(blue and "wet"'behind the ears), always getting into things. I've also read about his "submarine" and house in The Blue Room Archives...Eyloa seems to have been of high circle and at the same time bumbling!!! What ever became of him? He is part of The College?
Thanks

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on February 05, 2016, 03:29:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;877077
"No matter how good the paint job on the figure, or how good the detail, there will always be somebody there to drop the thing on the floor for you."
My pet peeve is people who tap the minis on the head and pick them up for emphasis...or something.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 05, 2016, 06:19:55 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;877078
And there you go - yet another reason why "Bethorm" is a handy book! :)


Yeah, I hoped it would be back when joining the Kickstarter, and wasn't disappointed!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on February 06, 2016, 01:04:17 AM
The worst is when people pick up two figures and wiggle them between their fingers to make them "fight".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on February 06, 2016, 01:09:52 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;877187
The worst is when people pick up two figures and wiggle them between their fingers to make them "fight".
Ooh. Or clash their weapons together. :mad:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 06, 2016, 01:49:01 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;877087
Yes, you have mentioned that troublesome Wizard(blue and "wet"'behind the ears), always getting into things. I've also read about his "submarine" and house in The Blue Room Archives...Eyloa seems to have been of high circle and at the same time bumbling!!! What ever became of him? He is part of The College?
Thanks

H;0)


Eyloa wasn't so much troublesome as meddling in things he really should not have been. Mike Callahagn got him up to a pretty high level indeed, but never know when to let well enough along - which could be said of lots of powerful PCs, I suppose.

Last time I hard, he was still 'at home', doing his arcane researches and dipping his fingers in other people's pies. I'm on the opposite side (more or less) of the planet from him, and I like it that way... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 06, 2016, 01:53:17 AM
Or the 'helpful fan' who, at an Origins demo game, helped pick up afterwards and dropped a box of figures - Gronan's old oufit, the Legion of Serqu, Sword of the Empire - managing to get all eighty figures of heavy infantry onto the concrete floor. I salvaged about thirty.

Or the guy at a game who kept picking up bunches of figures like they were grapes by grabbing the pikes and spears, and not even keeping them over the table...

And people wonder why I'm not all that keen on open games, any more... :(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 06, 2016, 09:31:01 AM
That sounds like something where paper figures would have a definite advantage, as is my plan:).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on February 06, 2016, 10:57:30 AM
Then there's the people who do a crappy-ass job on their assembly and painting and scoop them up by the handful and toss them into a shoe box who then turn about and do the same to your figures "just trying to help jeezz."

I'd cut off their fingers if I could.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on February 06, 2016, 03:50:06 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;877252
I'd cut off their fingers if I could.
I'm certain there's a tool that will do that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: yosemitemike on February 06, 2016, 09:50:25 PM
I use pawns or plastic pre-painted miniature for open games.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 07, 2016, 12:53:10 AM
Quote from: Bren;877292
I'm certain there's a tool that will do that.


There is. It's normally used to cut betel nuts open, but it works just fine for this. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 07, 2016, 12:59:46 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;877252
Then there's the people who do a crappy-ass job on their assembly and painting and scoop them up by the handful and toss them into a shoe box who then turn about and do the same to your figures "just trying to help jeezz."

I'd cut off their fingers if I could.


My personal favorite in the "just trying to help, jeezz!" category was the guy who was at a lot of my games at big conventions in the 1980s, and who was always really glad to help put the figures away after the games.

I noticed, when I did the post-show inventory, that I was always missing a few figures afterwards. In later years, this same guy posted pictures of all my missing figures on the Internet - as part of his Tekumel collection. (I could identify the figures by the paint schemes, and from the inventory lists.) Funny thing; I didn't sell him any of the figures, and I wasn't giving any away. Hmmm.

Now that I strictly control access to the collections, we don't seem to have an issue with 'loss prevention and control' any more...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 07, 2016, 01:05:42 AM
Quote from: yosemitemike;877342
I use pawns or plastic pre-painted miniature for open games.


Same here, for games where I will not be physically present. Unfortunately, I had issues getting them back, so I don"t do loan-outs any more.

I don't do open games, anymore, and I very closely control access to the collection; seems to have solved a lot of problems...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 07, 2016, 01:09:37 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;877246
That sounds like something where paper figures would have a definite advantage, as is my plan:).


They really are the way to go, unless you really want to get into miniatures as a hobby - I'm into is as an obsession, really. Paper really is handy, and there are also all sorts of nice paper model buildings out there that will do just fine.

I think I forgot to answer you about the cards - no, Phil didn't do 'card tricks'; he was a really good player. I did stage magic for quite a while, and that's where I learned the skill of the conjurer.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on February 07, 2016, 01:20:41 AM
heh...last night we were playing Savage Worlds in Victorian London and I was looking at my figures and thinking about what I needed to get to make it more functional for the period.  The session was probably a one off but I really need to get Foundry's hoodlums and bobbys on penny farthing bicycles some day and run a down hill chase to the Benny Hill show music.

Anyhow, it's a funny thing, I've been running a gaming store for 4 years now and outside of the shenanigans when I tried to sell it last year I don't think I've had a dime of shrinkage.  I used to tell one of the other store owners that I if he didn't have anything I thought was worth buying then he certainly didn't have anything worth stealing.  Some how I feel those words have come  back to haunt me.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 07, 2016, 01:31:11 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;877370
heh...last night we were playing Savage Worlds in Victorian London and I was looking at my figures and thinking about what I needed to get to make it more functional for the period.  The session was probably a one off but I really need to get Foundry's hoodlums and bobbys on penny farthing bicycles some day and run a down hill chase to the Benny Hill show music.

Anyhow, it's a funny thing, I've been running a gaming store for 4 years now and outside of the shenanigans when I tried to sell it last year I don't think I've had a dime of shrinkage.  I used to tell one of the other store owners that I if he didn't have anything I thought was worth buying then he certainly didn't have anything worth stealing.  Some how I feel those words have come  back to haunt me.


You should also have a look at Eureka's line of Victorian stuff - very good prices, and some real gems.

Understood about your situation, too. My problem is that because of my close association with Prof. Barker I've always been a 'High Value Target", with people thinking that it's open season. Phil used to have the same issues with his miniatures and papers; people would 'borrow' things, and they'd never come back. I got my starting painting figures for him because, he said, "Chirine is the only one who isn't stealing me blind." He'd give me 50 - 100 figures, I'd paint all of them to his specifications, and he'd keep the half that he liked the most; I got the rest as my 'fee'.

It's why I started my archival back-up work all those years ago; it got to the point where Phil would ask me for copies of his own works, as all his copies had been 'borrowed' - and this was still happening three years before he passed away, much to my surprise...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 07, 2016, 01:36:49 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;877370
bobbys on penny farthing bicycles


We want..... information.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 07, 2016, 01:48:12 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;877376
We want..... information.


Hee, hee! :)

I still have my 25mm Rover, too; that ping-pong ball is still scaring people... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 07, 2016, 04:15:55 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;877365
They really are the way to go, unless you really want to get into miniatures as a hobby - I'm into is as an obsession, really. Paper really is handy, and there are also all sorts of nice paper model buildings out there that will do just fine.

Well, miniatures are a hobby I like on an intuitive level. They're a hobby I have to skip on a practical level, though, due to space constraints;).

Quote
I think I forgot to answer you about the cards - no, Phil didn't do 'card tricks'; he was a really good player. I did stage magic for quite a while, and that's where I learned the skill of the conjurer.

Did you two ever play, and did you two ever consider financing Tekumel with a trip to Atlantic city or Las Vegas:D?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on February 07, 2016, 12:24:41 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;877376
We want..... information.


Here you go: http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/our-ranges/castingroomminiatures/victorians/victorian-policemen-bcvc002/

I'd have sworn they had some ne'r do well's on penny farthings as well.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;877373
You should also have a look at Eureka's line of Victorian stuff - very good prices, and some real gems.


I think they had some bobbys on unicycles.  I have the winged monkeys with blunderbusses and flintlocks that were used for Fantacide.  Alien Dungeon was a fun company that became a cautionary tale about small companies and highly successful kickstarter campaigns.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on February 07, 2016, 03:54:02 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;877451
Here you go: http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/our-ranges/castingroomminiatures/victorians/victorian-policemen-bcvc002/

I'd have sworn they had some ne'r do well's on penny farthings as well.
Those are great!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 07, 2016, 11:49:58 PM
Hello All,

I just came across this today. If you haven't seen it yet, it deserves your attention. This study is another fine example of someone's fondness for The Professor's creation. I'm sure would bring a smile to his face. Enjoy!!!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hisw0ijt03nysys/Naval%20Warfare%20on%20Tekumel.pdf?dl=0

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 08, 2016, 12:27:39 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;877388
Well, miniatures are a hobby I like on an intuitive level. They're a hobby I have to skip on a practical level, though, due to space constraints;).


Did you two ever play, and did you two ever consider financing Tekumel with a trip to Atlantic city or Las Vegas:D?


Understood - stick with paper, or you get a house like mine... :)

No. I know my limitations, and playing Phil would have been just plain dumb. He really was that good. Never thought about the professional angle; I think he knew what the odds are like in the casinos... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 08, 2016, 12:37:52 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;877451
Here you go: http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/our-ranges/castingroomminiatures/victorians/victorian-policemen-bcvc002/

I'd have sworn they had some ne'r do well's on penny farthings as well.



I think they had some bobbys on unicycles.  I have the winged monkeys with blunderbusses and flintlocks that were used for Fantacide.  Alien Dungeon was a fun company that became a cautionary tale about small companies and highly successful kickstarter campaigns.


Somebody out there does them. I could have sworn I saw them on the Eureka site - maybe in the 'Pax Limpopo' line?

I hear you about AD; I had wondered about the line when I saw it in the local FLGS. It's an example of one of the issues in the game industry today, very few companies can get the finding to finance the means of production - too much overhead for a small company - and thus have to rely on third-party manufacturers for their products. This can really badly backfire, if something goes wrong in the supply chain.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 08, 2016, 12:40:37 AM
Quote from: Bren;877488
Those are great!


Foundry's vast range has some real gems in it; I love their Assyrian siege troops, myself, as they make perfect Salarvyani.

But, as I have learned the hard way over the years, look at the lead before you buy - some of their offerings are kinda grim...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 08, 2016, 12:42:03 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;877618
Hello All,

I just came across this today. If you haven't seen it yet, it deserves your attention. This study is another fine example of someone's fondness for The Professor's creation. I'm sure would bring a smile to his face. Enjoy!!!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hisw0ijt03nysys/Naval%20Warfare%20on%20Tekumel.pdf?dl=0

H:0)


Great find - it's a wonderful look at the subject, and well worth downloading for your Tekumel library!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 08, 2016, 11:56:12 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;877632
Understood - stick with paper, or you get a house like mine... :)

No. I know my limitations, and playing Phil would have been just plain dumb. He really was that good. Never thought about the professional angle; I think he knew what the odds are like in the casinos... :)

No, Uncle, I'm afraid that even if I don't stick with paper, I still couldn't afford a house like yours:). So I'm avoiding getting stuff I couldn't keep.

So, Phil was good enough to play as a pro, but would avoid casinos? I think my portrayals of them might be even more accurate than I expected;).

Which brings us to the games of hazard, and I want to ask you, would there be casino-like structures in Tekumel, apart from the Hirilakte arena? I would expect backroom games of chance, wondering [strike]cheaters[/strike] professional players, betting on the equivalent of cock fights and dog fights, betting on races and (non-Hirilakte) Kushti matches, but is there anything I'm missing?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 08, 2016, 02:13:13 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;877725
No, Uncle, I'm afraid that even if I don't stick with paper, I still couldn't afford a house like yours:). So I'm avoiding getting stuff I couldn't keep.

So, Phil was good enough to play as a pro, but would avoid casinos? I think my portrayals of them might be even more accurate than I expected;).

Which brings us to the games of hazard, and I want to ask you, would there be casino-like structures in Tekumel, apart from the Hirilakte arena? I would expect backroom games of chance, wondering [strike]cheaters[/strike] professional players, betting on the equivalent of cock fights and dog fights, betting on races and (non-Hirilakte) Kushti matches, but is there anything I'm missing?


Understood - makes sense to me! :)

Phil knew the odds very well; the house is always going to make more then the player will, no matter how good the player. They enforce their rules quite efficiently, and will simply ban really successful players.

There aren't 'casinos', in any kind of formal sense, but you do get lower-status clans who specialize in gambling; and there are 'professionals', who are usually pretty honest players. Normally, the gambling is social, and take place in the middle- and upper-status clan-houses, with the host / hostess providing the professionals as a sort of party entertainment for the bored and jaded 'upper crust'. Betting occurs on everything, and is considered a 'noble hobby'.

Now, having said that, you do get 'gambling dens', run by those lower-status clans, and these are usually in or near the Foreigners' Quarters of a city, and normally cater to foreigners and other low-status persons - the kind who don't get invited to the better class of parties. These places are in their clan-houses, and are not the kind of place one would visit unless one had their guards along. And brought their own dice, too... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 08, 2016, 09:43:34 PM
Hey,  look, it's the trainer for Sapphire Kirtle!

http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/defying-age-sword-meenakshi-gurrukkal-kerala%E2%80%99s-grand-old-kalaripayattu-dame-38620
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on February 08, 2016, 10:08:06 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;877817
Hey,  look, it's the trainer for Sapphire Kirtle!

http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/defying-age-sword-meenakshi-gurrukkal-kerala%E2%80%99s-grand-old-kalaripayattu-dame-38620
That's a cool article.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 09, 2016, 01:49:29 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;877817
Hey,  look, it's the trainer for Sapphire Kirtle!

http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/defying-age-sword-meenakshi-gurrukkal-kerala%E2%80%99s-grand-old-kalaripayattu-dame-38620


I hope you realize there, Glorious General, that by posting that link and exposing people to this kind of thing you're going to cause some heads to explode in anguish.

How many times, over the years, did we have to sit there and listen to people griping about how stupid Tekumel was, "because stuff like that isn't realistic" and so on and so on, and so on?

People like dear old Granny Meenakshi are out there in the world, and provided Phil with a lot of 'local color' in his Tekumel. How many times did we run into rural villages and meet up with people like this dear old lady and her family - and got our asses kicked all the way back to Bey Sy, if we didn't be polite and respectful?

Great find, of course - I like the look on her sparring partner's face, and the vast array of weapons on the wall behind them - reminds you of Phil's living room, don't it?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 09, 2016, 01:50:22 AM
Quote from: Bren;877823
That's a cool article.


Agreed! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 09, 2016, 04:08:32 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;877846
I hope you realize there, Glorious General, that by posting that link and exposing people to this kind of thing you're going to cause some heads to explode in anguish.

How many times, over the years, did we have to sit there and listen to people griping about how stupid Tekumel was, "because stuff like that isn't realistic" and so on and so on, and so on?

Well, we should publicize that link, then! Let those head explode:)!
Although, given the lack of content, it looks more likely for them to implode under athmospheric pressure, so I'd say that's natural reasons;).

Quote
People like dear old Granny Meenakshi are out there in the world, and provided Phil with a lot of 'local color' in his Tekumel. How many times did we run into rural villages and meet up with people like this dear old lady and her family - and got our asses kicked all the way back to Bey Sy, if we didn't be polite and respectful?

There's enough people like that in most campaigns.

Quote
Great find, of course - I like the look on her sparring partner's face, and the vast array of weapons on the wall behind them - reminds you of Phil's living room, don't it?

The wall reminds me of the wall in our training gym:p.

But that's interesting, what look was there on Phil's sparring partners' faces:D?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 09, 2016, 09:50:39 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;877846
I hope you realize there, Glorious General, that by posting that link and exposing people to this kind of thing you're going to cause some heads to explode in anguish.

How many times, over the years, did we have to sit there and listen to people griping about how stupid Tekumel was, "because stuff like that isn't realistic" and so on and so on, and so on?

People like dear old Granny Meenakshi are out there in the world, and provided Phil with a lot of 'local color' in his Tekumel. How many times did we run into rural villages and meet up with people like this dear old lady and her family - and got our asses kicked all the way back to Bey Sy, if we didn't be polite and respectful?

Great find, of course - I like the look on her sparring partner's face, and the vast array of weapons on the wall behind them - reminds you of Phil's living room, don't it?


Lovely, top to bottom, isn't it.

By the way, all, as a spiritual discipline I'm giving up the Internet for Lent, partially for discipline and partially to catch up on my theological reading.  See you all after Easter.  Have fun!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on February 09, 2016, 07:47:07 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;877915
Lovely, top to bottom, isn't it.

By the way, all, as a spiritual discipline I'm giving up the Internet for Lent, partially for discipline and partially to catch up on my theological reading.  See you all after Easter.  Have fun!
Shouldn't today have been a binge Internet day then? Internet and paczkis.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 10, 2016, 08:11:20 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;877915
Lovely, top to bottom, isn't it.

By the way, all, as a spiritual discipline I'm giving up the Internet for Lent, partially for discipline and partially to catch up on my theological reading.  See you all after Easter.  Have fun!


I can only envy your self-discipline, and wish you good luck in your studies:)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on February 10, 2016, 07:12:19 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;877520

I would never do that now; I understand that Tekumel for Phil was about "experiencing life in the world," not "treading the jeweled thrones of earth beneath our sandaled feet."  


Is it WRONG to want to "tread the jeweled thrones"?
To go all Sword & Planet on Tekumel?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 11, 2016, 02:13:22 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;878257
Is it WRONG to want to "tread the jeweled thrones"?
To go all Sword & Planet on Tekumel?
=


No, I don't think it is. I think what Gronan is trying to articulate are the differences in nuance and emphasis between 'classic' RPG's and their world settings and what Phil was doing in his. Both Gronan and I come out of those formative years where the concept of an RPG 'campaign' was still new and largely not 'thought through'. The 'domain game' portion of the original D&D rules assumed that the PC would rise in level and resources until they could venture forth out into 'the wilderness' and carve out their own political entity. In Blackmoor, for example, a lot of the original group wound up becoming barons of their own small territories, and then spent a lot of game time defending them against each other and whatever Dave could throw at them.

Phil, on the other hand, had a different viewpoint - one adventured, certainly, and rose in rank and power, but one did it in the context of the society that one was a part of. Gronan himself is a good example of how it worked; he's what I'd consider a great success in and on Tekumel. In that society, one could indeed play 'the domain game', by advancing to the point where one was granted a fief by the Imperium, and then having to govern that fief successfully. The first known fief-holder is William Shipley, who got Kerunan Province some time around 1950 in the very first Tekumel campaign (a map-based board game) and then had to defend it from the Salrvyani - played by another of the first generation of Tekumel players. Later, Craig Smith and Gary Rudolph got the 'starter' two-hex fiefs, and tried to govern them. (Not all that successfully.)

Having said that, it's certainly possible to 'go all Sword and Planet' on Tekumel; my career is perhaps the best example of that kind of thing. I spent most of my career being an Imperial officer in charge of dealing with stupid people, which (of course) involved a lot of adventures along the way. Yes, I finally got a fief, but I had to fight for it - and for the Imperium.

Look at Phil's maps of Tekumel. Look at them from a GM's standpoint. Tsolyanu is centrally located, and around it are the other major empires. However, in between the borders of the Five Empires are a lot of little buffer states, wilderness areas, high mountains, and other areas that are not part of the empires and which provide the GM with a ready-made locale for High Adventure. Phil left a whole lot of blank space on the maps, as well as a lot of 'fringes' built into the societies of the Five Empires, and means whereby people could play the kind of game that ACKS - or OD&D, for that matter - encourages.

I think it's the difference between the Conan of the books, who eventually 'settles down' and becomes King of Aquilonia (and thus has very different adventures then he had in his younger days) and the Conan of the movies, where it's a lot more like the kind of life your basic adventurer leads.

Is it possible to be a John Carter, Kimball Kinnison, or even Conan of Hyboria on Phil's Tekumel? Yes; Phil left enough room for it, in all sorts of places. he did it with us, in our games; we moved out of the central empire a lot, and lived out on the edges of The Known World being legends.

Is this any more clear? I know I'm getting a little abstract and philosophical, mostly 'cause I'm just in from a very cold night at work and pretty tired.

Thoughts? Comments?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 11, 2016, 02:15:42 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;877867

But that's interesting, what look was there on Phil's sparring partners' faces:D?


Sheer panic, most of the time.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on February 11, 2016, 08:30:32 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;878351
I think it's the difference between the Conan of the books, who eventually 'settles down' and becomes King of Aquilonia (and thus has very different adventures then he had in his younger days) and the Conan of the movies, where it's a lot more like the kind of life your basic adventurer leads.

Is it possible to be a John Carter, Kimball Kinnison, or even Conan of Hyboria on Phil's Tekumel? Yes; Phil left enough room for it, in all sorts of places. he did it with us, in our games; we moved out of the central empire a lot, and lived out on the edges of The Known World being legends.


Baron Ald kind of reads like that. Young man from Saa Allaqi wanders out of that backward country, has adventures, becomes a mercenary, rises to General but is betrayed, starts own country.



Another question, when you found unknown devices of the ancients, how did the Good Professor describe them? Did you ever find a device where his description baffled you but that was dead on in retrospect after you had a eureka moment?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 11, 2016, 08:44:10 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;878351
No, I don't think it is. I think what Gronan is trying to articulate are the differences in nuance and emphasis between 'classic' RPG's and their world settings and what Phil was doing in his. Both Gronan and I come out of those formative years where the concept of an RPG 'campaign' was still new and largely not 'thought through'. The 'domain game' portion of the original D&D rules assumed that the PC would rise in level and resources until they could venture forth out into 'the wilderness' and carve out their own political entity. In Blackmoor, for example, a lot of the original group wound up becoming barons of their own small territories, and then spent a lot of game time defending them against each other and whatever Dave could throw at them.

Phil, on the other hand, had a different viewpoint - one adventured, certainly, and rose in rank and power, but one did it in the context of the society that one was a part of. Gronan himself is a good example of how it worked; he's what I'd consider a great success in and on Tekumel. In that society, one could indeed play 'the domain game', by advancing to the point where one was granted a fief by the Imperium, and then having to govern that fief successfully. The first known fief-holder is William Shipley, who got Kerunan Province some time around 1950 in the very first Tekumel campaign (a map-based board game) and then had to defend it from the Salrvyani - played by another of the first generation of Tekumel players. Later, Craig Smith and Gary Rudolph got the 'starter' two-hex fiefs, and tried to govern them. (Not all that successfully.)

Having said that, it's certainly possible to 'go all Sword and Planet' on Tekumel; my career is perhaps the best example of that kind of thing. I spent most of my career being an Imperial officer in charge of dealing with stupid people, which (of course) involved a lot of adventures along the way. Yes, I finally got a fief, but I had to fight for it - and for the Imperium.

Look at Phil's maps of Tekumel. Look at them from a GM's standpoint. Tsolyanu is centrally located, and around it are the other major empires. However, in between the borders of the Five Empires are a lot of little buffer states, wilderness areas, high mountains, and other areas that are not part of the empires and which provide the GM with a ready-made locale for High Adventure. Phil left a whole lot of blank space on the maps, as well as a lot of 'fringes' built into the societies of the Five Empires, and means whereby people could play the kind of game that ACKS - or OD&D, for that matter - encourages.

I think it's the difference between the Conan of the books, who eventually 'settles down' and becomes King of Aquilonia (and thus has very different adventures then he had in his younger days) and the Conan of the movies, where it's a lot more like the kind of life your basic adventurer leads.

Is it possible to be a John Carter, Kimball Kinnison, or even Conan of Hyboria on Phil's Tekumel? Yes; Phil left enough room for it, in all sorts of places. he did it with us, in our games; we moved out of the central empire a lot, and lived out on the edges of The Known World being legends.

Is this any more clear? I know I'm getting a little abstract and philosophical, mostly 'cause I'm just in from a very cold night at work and pretty tired.

Thoughts? Comments?


"It is I, his chronicler, who alone can tell thee of his saga.
Let me tell you of the days of high adventure..."

It is very clear. I think it all goes back to The Professor's, "make Tekumel yours". Sky is the limit, if that is what you want. Be the humble priest or soldier going about his duties, travel the planes, battle demons, it is all good. Enjoy!!! One thing that I have learned (here and reading The Blue Room Archives) is that there is a difference between "real" Tekumel and "game" Tekumel(just like on Earth). In "game" Tekumel there is more magic, fantastical elements, and death...In "real" Tekumel there is work, more taxes, and death...So by Klono's tungsten teeth make Tekumel your own...So have fun, or pay taxes(or both). The choice is yours.

Uncle, what is best in life...???

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 11, 2016, 02:29:10 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;878398
Baron Ald kind of reads like that. Young man from Saa Allaqi wanders out of that backward country, has adventures, becomes a mercenary, rises to General but is betrayed, starts own country.

Another question, when you found unknown devices of the ancients, how did the Good Professor describe them? Did you ever find a device where his description baffled you but that was dead on in retrospect after you had a eureka moment?


Precisely! We always had to wonder, over the years, if Baron Ald was actually one of Phil's players from his college years' game...

He would describe them quite literally and accurately, and we had no idea what they did except from what they did when we pushed the buttons. We had a lot of times where we had what you described. Here's an example:

"You find a metal device, about knee-high tall about about as big around as your body. It's cylindrical, with a domed top; there are two jewels on the top of the dome, one green and one red; the red one is glowing red. There is a metallic tube coming out of one side of the object, and this ends in a broad, fan-shaped metal piece with slots in the end."

What is it? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 11, 2016, 02:32:55 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;878401
"It is I, his chronicler, who alone can tell thee of his saga.
Let me tell you of the days of high adventure..."

It is very clear. I think it all goes back to The Professor's, "make Tekumel yours". Sky is the limit, if that is what you want. Be the humble priest or soldier going about his duties, travel the planes, battle demons, it is all good. Enjoy!!! One thing that I have learned (here and reading The Blue Room Archives) is that there is a difference between "real" Tekumel and "game" Tekumel(just like on Earth). In "game" Tekumel there is more magic, fantastical elements, and death...In "real" Tekumel there is work, more taxes, and death...So by Klono's tungsten teeth make Tekumel your own...So have fun, or pay taxes(or both). The choice is yours.

Uncle, what is best in life...???

H;0)


Exactly. Tekumel, at least the way Phil described it and played it, is a pretty big tent that will shelter a lot of play styles. Make of it what you will!


What is best in life? For Chirine? A quiet night at home with the family, when he's not out leading his little army and his friends in yet another adventure... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 13, 2016, 08:51:21 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;878352
Sheer panic, most of the time.


Interesting! So he was as good with fists, swords, or whatever you practiced with, as he was with cards:)?
That man has indeed lead a very interesting life;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 13, 2016, 11:00:07 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;878817
Interesting! So he was as good with fists, swords, or whatever you practiced with, as he was with cards:)?
That man has indeed lead a very interesting life;).


In my experience with him, he was good at anything he wanted to be good at. He'd study something, and learn - and remember.

From some of the ways he handled his collection of Indo-Persian weapons, he'd gotten some sort of formal instruction in their use at some point in his life; I'd bet on his time as a Fulbright Scholar, studying there, and being out in rural South Asia.

None of us practiced with him, in any sort of formal sense, but he was very fond of us bringing our stuff over - like Gronan, in his armor - and going out onto the lawn (much to the amusement of the neighbors!) to fool around with various things to see how they worked. You could tell from how Phil moved that if hadn't been for the terrible vision and the arthritis, he would have given you a very rough time - and I dare say that he would have been able to give Gronan a run for his money, if he'd been younger and better health.

I do not say this lightly; Gronan, at time, was a pretty durn skilled man-at-arms, and was A Pretty Serious Contender. Phil also had a height and weight advantage, and only the gods know what kind of experience to call upon.

I took my set of shinai out to his house once, and we had lots and lots of fun sparring - his wife was away, so we got away with it. He knew all the basics, and was reasonably quick - not mobile, due to the arthritis, but quick. I made sure not to bring the bokken out there... :)

No, Phil had a fascinating life, and I am very glad that we got the chance to share part of it with him.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 15, 2016, 02:57:55 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;878843
In my experience with him, he was good at anything he wanted to be good at. He'd study something, and learn - and remember.

From some of the ways he handled his collection of Indo-Persian weapons, he'd gotten some sort of formal instruction in their use at some point in his life; I'd bet on his time as a Fulbright Scholar, studying there, and being out in rural South Asia.

None of us practiced with him, in any sort of formal sense, but he was very fond of us bringing our stuff over - like Gronan, in his armor - and going out onto the lawn (much to the amusement of the neighbors!) to fool around with various things to see how they worked. You could tell from how Phil moved that if hadn't been for the terrible vision and the arthritis, he would have given you a very rough time - and I dare say that he would have been able to give Gronan a run for his money, if he'd been younger and better health.

I do not say this lightly; Gronan, at time, was a pretty durn skilled man-at-arms, and was A Pretty Serious Contender. Phil also had a height and weight advantage, and only the gods know what kind of experience to call upon.

I took my set of shinai out to his house once, and we had lots and lots of fun sparring - his wife was away, so we got away with it. He knew all the basics, and was reasonably quick - not mobile, due to the arthritis, but quick. I made sure not to bring the bokken out there... :)

No, Phil had a fascinating life, and I am very glad that we got the chance to share part of it with him.


Ah well, after I was told in another thread that Gary Gygax was also testing polearms, I can only conclude that I'm moving in the right direction, myself;)! Seems to be something of an unspoken tradition for Referees.
Gary and Phil were among the first Referees, right:D?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 15, 2016, 01:58:41 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;879034
Ah well, after I was told in another thread that Gary Gygax was also testing polearms, I can only conclude that I'm moving in the right direction, myself;)! Seems to be something of an unspoken tradition for Referees.
Gary and Phil were among the first Referees, right:D?


Yes, Gary was, and he was doing it with Gronan - the latter did this immense table that showed every known pole arm, and assigned it a value in "Chainmail". We used to make notes on just what weapon our figures had, so we could get the numbers right in games; he used to hang the poster-sized chart on the wall for games.

This sort of thing was pretty common, back then; Dave was a founding member of the First Minnesota Volunteer Infantry, which set very high standards for ACW re-enactment. Everybody did a lot of 'practical experiments', like the ones that Phil did with 'flasks of oil' and 'torches' out in his yard, or we did in our suits of armor. We did a lot of research into primary sources, too.

Re 'first referees', depends on whose mythology you believe. I'd suggest "Playing at the World", myself... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 15, 2016, 02:14:13 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;879105
Yes, Gary was, and he was doing it with Gronan - the latter did this immense table that showed every known pole arm, and assigned it a value in "Chainmail". We used to make notes on just what weapon our figures had, so we could get the numbers right in games; he used to hang the poster-sized chart on the wall for games.

This sort of thing was pretty common, back then; Dave was a founding member of the First Minnesota Volunteer Infantry, which set very high standards for ACW re-enactment. Everybody did a lot of 'practical experiments', like the ones that Phil did with 'flasks of oil' and 'torches' out in his yard, or we did in our suits of armor. We did a lot of research into primary sources, too.

Re 'first referees', depends on whose mythology you believe. I'd suggest "Playing at the World", myself... :)

Well, that's a good thing to know:). I have been thinking lately that way too few RPG authors these days go to primary sources and make experiments. I guess that makes me a grognard who was born too late;).

On a more practical matter, here are three incredibly arcane questions.

Can you make a guess where one should look if looking to find such a complete tome?
[/LIST]
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on February 15, 2016, 03:13:56 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;878451

"You find a metal device, about knee-high tall about about as big around as your body. It's cylindrical, with a domed top; there are two jewels on the top of the dome, one green and one red; the red one is glowing red. There is a metallic tube coming out of one side of the object, and this ends in a broad, fan-shaped metal piece with slots in the end."

What is it? :)


AS the tree said to the lumberjack, I'm stumped.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 15, 2016, 03:36:44 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;879120
AS the tree said to the lumberjack, I'm stumped.

I've been thinking about it too...Uncle do you think you could describe it a little bit more? Which way is the "fan", vertical or horizontal? How big are the slots?Where is the tube connected on the cylinder, towards the top or the bottom?
I don't know if it will help, but maybe we can figure it out...What happens when my slave pushes the green button(don't worry, I'm a member of the Temple of Ksarul)...???

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 15, 2016, 04:01:00 PM
If it's a horizontal fan, it might well be a flying machine:).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on February 15, 2016, 05:12:52 PM
Is the metallic tube flexible? If so, it sounds a bit like a vacuum cleaner to me.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 16, 2016, 02:00:45 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;879108
Well, that's a good thing to know:). I have been thinking lately that way too few RPG authors these days go to primary sources and make experiments. I guess that makes me a grognard who was born too late;).

On a more practical matter, here are three incredibly arcane questions.
  • Do you have any idea who erected the last wall around Ksarul's prison:D?
  • What would happen if anyone was to tear a wall down?
  • It is known that the Priest-Kings of Engsvan hla Ganga have compiled tomes listing the flora and fauna of Tekumel. While the flora set is relatively preserved, there is a distinct lack of full copies of the one detailing the fauna of Tekumel.

Can you make a guess where one should look if looking to find such a complete tome?
[/LIST]


You're never to late to learn - I'm still learning, even at my advanced age! :)

1. The One Other. (I have the seating plan for the meeting of the gods.)
2. Really, really, really bad things; I'd expect the gods to show up and really do nasty things to you.
3. The Imperial Library in Bey Sy, or in the library in Prince Rereshquala's palace outside Jakalla. You might get lucky in a temple library in one of the big cities, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 16, 2016, 02:01:29 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;879120
AS the tree said to the lumberjack, I'm stumped.


More clues to follow... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 16, 2016, 02:10:20 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;879128
I've been thinking about it too...Uncle do you think you could describe it a little bit more? Which way is the "fan", vertical or horizontal? How big are the slots?Where is the tube connected on the cylinder, towards the top or the bottom?
I don't know if it will help, but maybe we can figure it out...What happens when my slave pushes the green button(don't worry, I'm a member of the Temple of Ksarul)...???

H;0)


The fan-shaped metal thing at the end of the flexible metal hose is 'horizontal', i.e., parallel to the ground when laid down. The slots are vertical, on the end face of the fan thing. The tube is attached to the cylindrical main body just below where the cylinder curves into the domed top. The whole thing is about knee-high to a normal human, with the metallic flexible tube being about the height of a normal human. The tube is not detachable.

Your slave asks you, quite politely, to simply slit his throat and have done with it. Several of your fellow squareheads (sorry, but they call us 'matchheads') suggest that as you are a noble person - and a player-character - it's your job to touch the jewels to see what they might do. They are more then willing to pick the pieces afterwards, of course, in the spirit of scientific inquiry.

[This actually did come up in Phil's campaign very early on. PCs would try to get NPCs to do really risky things, and the NPCs would comment quite adversely on the PCs' lack of nobility and courage.]
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 16, 2016, 02:12:47 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;879132
If it's a horizontal fan, it might well be a flying machine:).


There is no fan under the cylindrical main body, but when you tip the thing to one side you do feel a sort of 'push' downward on your hand from the base of the thing. When you put it back upright, it does seem to float a finger's breadth above the ground.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 16, 2016, 02:14:43 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;879141
Is the metallic tube flexible? If so, it sounds a bit like a vacuum cleaner to me.


Yes, the metallic tube is flexible. It will take a position and stay in that position, if you move it or bend it.

See! You, too, can play in one of Phil's games!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 16, 2016, 05:13:24 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;879261
You're never to late to learn - I'm still learning, even at my advanced age! :)

1. The One Other. (I have the seating plan for the meeting of the gods.)
2. Really, really, really bad things; I'd expect the gods to show up and really do nasty things to you.
3. The Imperial Library in Bey Sy, or in the library in Prince Rereshquala's palace outside Jakalla. You might get lucky in a temple library in one of the big cities, too.

1. The Pariah god? Oh-la-la, as they say in Lyvianu:)!
2. That's fine, it's an NPC's plan. Said NPC is hoping to gain some measure of power boost from Ksarul in exchange, of course!
3. Understood, but how about a smaller, less visited temple in the middle of nowhere?


Quote from: chirine ba kal;879268
There is no fan under the cylindrical main body, but when you tip the thing to one side you do feel a sort of 'push' downward on your hand from the base of the thing. When you put it back upright, it does seem to float a finger's breadth above the ground.

I push the green button and jump back;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 16, 2016, 11:34:11 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;879141
Is the metallic tube flexible? If so, it sounds a bit like a vacuum cleaner to me.


Yes, this thing sounds like some sort or slave Ru'un of the Ancients(an automated vaccum cleaner). In the interest of personal knowledge, I push the green button...

H;0)

PS On second thought, I watch closely as Lord Asen pushes the button...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron Opal on February 16, 2016, 11:43:44 AM
It's a vacuum cleaner.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on February 16, 2016, 12:21:58 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;879270
See! You, too, can play in one of Phil's games!!! :)


Thanks! Only, that isn't really possible any more...except perhaps vicariously, through your work
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 16, 2016, 12:23:08 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;879295
1. The Pariah god? Oh-la-la, as they say in Lyvianu:)!
2. That's fine, it's an NPC's plan. Said NPC is hoping to gain some measure of power boost from Ksarul in exchange, of course!
3. Understood, but how about a smaller, less visited temple in the middle of nowhere?

I push the green button and jump back;).


Could be - you'd have to go and look, of course; you find all sorts of odd stuff in backwater temples.

You touch the green gem on the top of the thing's dome. It glows green, and after a moment a warm vapor starts to come out of the end of the tube, out through the fan-shaped metal part.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 16, 2016, 12:27:48 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;879334
Yes, this thing sounds like some sort or slave Ru'un of the Ancients(an automated vaccum cleaner). In the interest of personal knowledge, I push the green button...

H;0)

PS On second thought, I watch closely as Lord Asen pushes the button...


He does, and all the NPCs in the room suddenly remember that they have pressing social engagements elsewhere and depart in some haste. You see the green gem glow, after he touches it, and after a moment a greyish vapor begins to be emitted from the end of the tube, through the device on the end of the tube.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 16, 2016, 12:30:38 PM
Quote from: Baron Opal;879338
It's a vacuum cleaner.


One of the Ro'omba? No; they re very different little machines, and are usually found on the Ancients' intra-system spaceships. They collect all of the dust and debris, and feed it into the ships' matter-converters to provide extra energy sources. They love player-characters, who are usually very messy, sloppy, and bad housekeepers in general.

Excellent try, though! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 16, 2016, 12:37:49 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;879345
Thanks! Only, that isn't really possible any more...except perhaps vicariously, through your work


Um. Understood; we're going into deep philosophical waters, here.

Just like with Dave and Gary, I hold that it's possible to get very close to the play style that Phil had in his home campaign. I think that it's more of a mindset then a set of rules; it's a way of looking at the world-setting and being immersed in it on it's own terms. We didn't so much play in Phil's world as live in it; we accepted it more or less at face value, and worried a lot more about simply staying alive then getting XP or other 'game' stuff.

Phil was an unreconstructed Ancient Egyptian (New Kingdom) at heart; when we did his memorial event slide show, we pointed out their belief "that to speak the name of the dead is to make them live again", which is why I'm writing my book, doing my blog, and being here on this thread. I'm hoping that by my tales I can give you an idea of what exploring Tekumel with Phil was like, and hoping that you can take that - any of it that you like! - and go and explore the place yourself.

One can only try... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 16, 2016, 12:55:34 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;879347
Could be - you'd have to go and look, of course; you find all sorts of odd stuff in backwater temples.

You touch the green gem on the top of the thing's dome. It glows green, and after a moment a warm vapor starts to come out of the end of the tube, out through the fan-shaped metal part.

I touch the red gem from a distance, with the tip of my mace:)!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;879348
He does, and all the NPCs in the room suddenly remember that they have pressing social engagements elsewhere and depart in some haste.

Excellent details! They wouldn't like to be absent from the birthday of Third Mother, which is coming in three weeks, right;)?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;879355
Um. Understood; we're going into deep philosophical waters, here.

Just like with Dave and Gary, I hold that it's possible to get very close to the play style that Phil had in his home campaign. I think that it's more of a mindset then a set of rules; it's a way of looking at the world-setting and being immersed in it on it's own terms. We didn't so much play in Phil's world as live in it; we accepted it more or less at face value, and worried a lot more about simply staying alive then getting XP or other 'game' stuff.

And that's the mindset I'm trying to achieve, too.
(Which is also part of the reason why the modern ideas that one should look for the author's reasons to include something from an OOC perspective are grating for me. But let's not digress).

Quote
Phil was an unreconstructed Ancient Egyptian (New Kingdom) at heart; when we did his memorial event slide show, we pointed out their belief "that to speak the name of the dead is to make them live again", which is why I'm writing my book, doing my blog, and being here on this thread. I'm hoping that by my tales I can give you an idea of what exploring Tekumel with Phil was like, and hoping that you can take that - any of it that you like! - and go and explore the place yourself.

One can only try... :)

May the gods smile upon the soul of M.A.R "Phil" Barker, a.k.a. "Firu ba Yeker"!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 16, 2016, 01:33:00 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;879361
I touch the red gem from a distance, with the tip of my mace:)!


Excellent details! They wouldn't like to be absent from the birthday of Third Mother, which is coming in three weeks, right;)?


And that's the mindset I'm trying to achieve, too.
(Which is also part of the reason why the modern ideas that one should look for the author's reasons to include something from an OOC perspective are grating for me. But let's not digress).

May the gods smile upon the soul of M.A.R "Phil" Barker, a.k.a. "Firu ba Yeker"!


Roll percentile dice; let me know if you're under your dexterity or over, please.

Why, yes, they are... :)

Understood... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 16, 2016, 01:55:06 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;879367
Roll percentile dice; let me know if you're under your dexterity or over, please.

Why, yes, they are... :)

Understood... :)

It's under! I rolled 49 for Dexterity and 37 on the check.

What does the "understood" line refer to, the mindset or the call to the gods.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 16, 2016, 03:07:08 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;879372
It's under! I rolled 49 for Dexterity and 37 on the check.

What does the "understood" line refer to, the mindset or the call to the gods.


Great! The green gem stops glowing, the vapor stops being emitted, and the red gem starts glowing. If you do nothing, after a while the red gem stops glowing and all is as before.

Both, I think. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 16, 2016, 03:33:10 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;879389
Great! The green gem stops glowing, the vapor stops being emitted, and the red gem starts glowing. If you do nothing, after a while the red gem stops glowing and all is as before.

Both, I think. :)

I push it gently forward from the side with the fan, using the mace as before:).


I hope the salutation didn't offend;). My personal philosophy about death is sometimes hardly palatable to people for reasons (part of which might be genetic) so I'm actually worried about it sometimes.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 16, 2016, 03:39:11 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;879389
Great! The green gem stops glowing, the vapor stops being emitted, and the red gem starts glowing. If you do nothing, after a while the red gem stops glowing and all is as before.

Both, I think. :)


Do I smell anything strange...?

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on February 16, 2016, 05:03:00 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;879261


1. The One Other. (I have the seating plan for the meeting of the gods.)


Got to ask how the seating arrangement went. I would ask if they argued over who sat where but that goes without saying. Did Ksarul get a seat? Did all of them try to avoid sitting next to the One Other or is he actually a nice fellow?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on February 16, 2016, 05:07:27 PM
It is amazing how mysterious a clothes steamer can be when described by only its appearance and effects.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 16, 2016, 05:14:36 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;879435
It is amazing how mysterious a clothes steamer can be when described by only its appearance and effects.
=


Indeed, but one should also account for the possibility that the same design was used by the Lords of the Humanspace for other things. And we know they weren't Nice People.
So, caution and experimentation were advised, despite suspecting that it's a steam cleaning machine of some sort, and because I didn't get that it's trying to clean clothes.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 17, 2016, 01:59:44 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;879398
I push it gently forward from the side with the fan, using the mace as before:).


I hope the salutation didn't offend;). My personal philosophy about death is sometimes hardly palatable to people for reasons (part of which might be genetic) so I'm actually worried about it sometimes.


Nothing happens. The thing is sitting on the floor.

No offense taken or assumed. Having been dead for a bit, some years back, I have my own opinions on the subject. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 17, 2016, 02:00:39 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;879399
Do I smell anything strange...?

H:0)


No, not really. You do smell - roll percentile dice, please.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 17, 2016, 02:02:27 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;879432
Got to ask how the seating arrangement went. I would ask if they argued over who sat where but that goes without saying. Did Ksarul get a seat? Did all of them try to avoid sitting next to the One Other or is he actually a nice fellow?


The table was a shallow triangle. Ksarul did not get a seat. No, they all sat around and were sort of nice to each other - Ksarul really did cheese the lot of them off...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 17, 2016, 02:04:11 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;879435
It is amazing how mysterious a clothes steamer can be when described by only its appearance and effects.
=


Very good! Yes, this is a Streamline Moderne clothes steamer that Phil used to have.

Wanna hear how it worked on the Ssu? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 17, 2016, 02:07:22 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;879437
Indeed, but one should also account for the possibility that the same design was used by the Lords of the Humanspace for other things. And we know they weren't Nice People.
So, caution and experimentation were advised, despite suspecting that it's a steam cleaning machine of some sort, and because I didn't get that it's trying to clean clothes.


(Sighs happily.) I may have to think abut doing some gaming on-line or something - this is really fun!

Your caution is not misplaced; we came to grief a number of times from assuming we know how a device worked. Like the time Gronan pulled the safety pin out of the metallic sphere and threw the device at the Black Ssu who was chasing him at the time...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 17, 2016, 03:30:00 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;879506
Nothing happens. The thing is sitting on the floor.

No offense taken or assumed. Having been dead for a bit, some years back, I have my own opinions on the subject. :)

Well, after the guess of Lord Green hi Tongue, I think we can all relax and think of how to use it best:). Or, we can seek the answer in the stories of heroes that came before us!

That makes two of us;). We should compare notes some time.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;879510
(Sighs happily.) I may have to think abut doing some gaming on-line or something - this is really fun!

Your caution is not misplaced; we came to grief a number of times from assuming we know how a device worked. Like the time Gronan pulled the safety pin out of the metallic sphere and threw the device at the Black Ssu who was chasing him at the time...

You totally should.

What happened? Was it a bottle of perfume:D?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;879509
Very good! Yes, this is a Streamline Moderne clothes steamer that Phil used to have.

Wanna hear how it worked on the Ssu? :)

I want to hear that. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: nDervish on February 17, 2016, 07:10:05 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;879514
You totally should.

Agreed!

Quote from: AsenRG;879514

I want to hear that. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one!


You are most definitely not alone.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 17, 2016, 09:54:40 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;879514

What happened? Was it a bottle of perfume:D?


Bearing grease.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 17, 2016, 10:35:59 AM
Quote from: nDervish;879539
Agreed!



You are most definitely not alone.

Well, it's good to have company;)!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;879557
Bearing grease.

I hope you didn't spill it in front of yourself, then?

And I totally understand you, man, it does sound like a grenade:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on February 17, 2016, 11:48:44 AM
Chirine, I had a question about something you mentioned a while back. Empress Dashiluna. You said her antics caused you a lot of trouble. Was that just referring to her legacy of nasties, or did you actually go back and meet her at some point?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 17, 2016, 01:44:05 PM
I can't wait to hear how the Ssu react to these relics of the Ancients...I'm go for some type of online game too!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 17, 2016, 01:56:42 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;879514
Well, after the guess of Lord Green hi Tongue, I think we can all relax and think of how to use it best:). Or, we can seek the answer in the stories of heroes that came before us!

That makes two of us;). We should compare notes some time.


You totally should.

What happened? Was it a bottle of perfume:D?


I want to hear that. And I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one!


Agreed; I'll fill everyone in.

I still owe you some e-mails, too! Life at work is still being bizarrely crazy, but it's getting better.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 17, 2016, 02:08:11 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;879557
Bearing grease.


I actually found the real thing in the attic out at Phil's when we were cleaning out the house after he passed away. It was hanging on the wall of the little room off the attic office, and scared the crap out of me when I read the label.

It was a fire extinguisher! It was a metal sphere, just the right size for throwing, with a safety bad around it with a pin with a big pull ring, just like the one you found all those years ago. The idea, according to the label, is that when you have a fire, you grab this thing, pull the pin, and toss it into the heart of the fire.

It's full of a carbon tetrachloride compound. The sphere falls into two halves, the thick black goop inside gets heated up by the fire and more or less explodes, and supposedly puts out the fire.

Phil was still surprising us, months after he passed away!

And I thought of you, and all those nights so long ago... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 17, 2016, 02:21:48 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;879577
Chirine, I had a question about something you mentioned a while back. Empress Dashiluna. You said her antics caused you a lot of trouble. Was that just referring to her legacy of nasties, or did you actually go back and meet her at some point?


It was a lot more complicated then simply dealing with her 'friends'. I'm currently writing about this in my book - volume IV, "Across the Sea of Worlds" - and telling the full story. In short, the Empress had left behind an artifact - three of them, actually - that threatened the Tlakotani dynasty and the Seal Imperium itself. As usual, when the apocalypse impends, the Imperial family (a pretty dysfunctional bunch of siblings, if there ever were!) sent for Yours Truly and told me to Deal With The Problem.

I did, in what could be described as spectacular fashion, in what became known as The Affair Of The Malchairan Emerald.

And yes, I did meet her. (shudders)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 17, 2016, 02:32:19 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;879615
I can't wait to hear how the Ssu react to these relics of the Ancients...I'm go for some type of online game too!!!

H:0)


The steamer: So, the party finds the thing, and gets to the point where the greyish vapor is coming out. It gets shut off, and hauled around the underworld until the group sets an ambush for the pursuing Ssu. The device is set up in a room that the Ssu have to pass through, and started up. (The idea was to do what I usually did, which was cast 'Creeping Fog of Doom" as a sort of 'land mine' to deter pursuit.) The room fills with fog, the party runs for it, and the Ssu come crashing in to the fog. They came out unharmed, but with their wrinkled loose skins all neatly un-wrinkled and looking very sharp.

And they took the machine, too. Ssu zoot-suiters. Who would have thought?

The bomb: Well, it looked like a grenade, hefted like a grenade, and had a pin like a grenade, so why not? Gronan soon put it to the test, nailing a Black Ssu with the thing right between the Ssu's eyes in an absolutely perfect throw. To everyone's annoyance, it didn't explode, but covered the Ssu with a thick black goop that we assumed was some sort of bearing grease - we thought that this was a set of axle cups, rather neatly packaged for use. Once again, the party runs like hell. (See note above, for what this thing might really have been...)

We laughed our fool heads off, too. Both times.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 17, 2016, 03:58:24 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;879629
The steamer: So, the party finds the thing, and gets to the point where the greyish vapor is coming out. It gets shut off, and hauled around the underworld until the group sets an ambush for the pursuing Ssu. The device is set up in a room that the Ssu have to pass through, and started up. (The idea was to do what I usually did, which was cast 'Creeping Fog of Doom" as a sort of 'land mine' to deter pursuit.) The room fills with fog, the party runs for it, and the Ssu come crashing in to the fog. They came out unharmed, but with their wrinkled loose skins all neatly un-wrinkled and looking very sharp.

And they took the machine, too. Ssu zoot-suiters. Who would have thought?

The bomb: Well, it looked like a grenade, hefted like a grenade, and had a pin like a grenade, so why not? Gronan soon put it to the test, nailing a Black Ssu with the thing right between the Ssu's eyes in an absolutely perfect throw. To everyone's annoyance, it didn't explode, but covered the Ssu with a thick black goop that we assumed was some sort of bearing grease - we thought that this was a set of axle cups, rather neatly packaged for use. Once again, the party runs like hell. (See note above, for what this thing might really have been...)

We laughed our fool heads off, too. Both times.


Excellent!!!

I was actually going through my spell list looking for something suitable to protect us...Alas, Lord Asen did the deed.

On a different note, question...

Would you have any more information on the Tomb of the Lord of the Black Mould(The Book of Ebon Bindings Pg15)? Who or what he is and any details of his great treasures?

Thanks,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 17, 2016, 09:06:44 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;879624
I actually found the real thing in the attic out at Phil's when we were cleaning out the house after he passed away. It was hanging on the wall of the little room off the attic office, and scared the crap out of me when I read the label.

It was a fire extinguisher! It was a metal sphere, just the right size for throwing, with a safety bad around it with a pin with a big pull ring, just like the one you found all those years ago. The idea, according to the label, is that when you have a fire, you grab this thing, pull the pin, and toss it into the heart of the fire.

It's full of a carbon tetrachloride compound. The sphere falls into two halves, the thick black goop inside gets heated up by the fire and more or less explodes, and supposedly puts out the fire.

Phil was still surprising us, months after he passed away!

And I thought of you, and all those nights so long ago... :)


Still surprising us indeed.

And cheer up, at least we didn't try to eat it like those clowns in FLAMESONG.

Carbon Tet was also used in "fire grenades" in liquid form too.  In 1963 the barn in Lake Geneva had them in the hayloft, along with post and tube wiring (in a HAYLOFT?).  Both were replaced quickly.

And a few years ago at a Chicago and NorthWestern Railroad Historical Society meet, somebody put some in the auction... complete with the railroad name and "Ball and Bar" herald molded into the glass!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 17, 2016, 09:11:20 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;878257
Is it WRONG to want to "tread the jeweled thrones"?
To go all Sword & Planet on Tekumel?
=


Let me rephrase it.

The real problem was that I had a "special snowflake" character; everybody else was a mainstream Tekumel character, and my Flemish knight was a very, very odd "odd man out."  The problem with that is that the odd character becomes the focus of the game in a way unfair to other players.  That's the problem with "special snowflakes."  I would never do that now.

See, Dave ran multiple times a week, and Gary at one point was running Greyhawk literally seven days a week.  So if your character was an oddball, you'd just play solo.  For that matter, Greyhawk was rather gonzo as a town; if a Balrog, a Shoggoth, and a Rabbi walked down the street together, the locals would hardly notice except to say "Looks like one of those stupid Incredible Journey movies."

But Phil had trouble squeezing out two nights a week for gaming, and he didn't really have time to deal with "special snowflakes."

Clearer?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 17, 2016, 11:01:16 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;879637
Excellent!!!

I was actually going through my spell list looking for something suitable to protect us...Alas, Lord Asen did the deed.

On a different note, question...

Would you have any more information on the Tomb of the Lord of the Black Mould(The Book of Ebon Bindings Pg15)? Who or what he is and any details of his great treasures?

Thanks,

H:0)


I actually just came across to another reference to the tomb elsewhere. Something about it being located in the secret city of Schyak in far away Nluss. Any more information would be appreciated and welcome. Thanks again.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 17, 2016, 11:23:28 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;878843


From some of the ways he handled his collection of Indo-Persian weapons, he'd gotten some sort of formal instruction in their use at some point in his life; I'd bet on his time as a Fulbright Scholar, studying there, and being out in rural South Asia.


Phil was at least two or three inches taller than me, with shoulders to match, and I'm a six-footer.  By the time I met him he not only had the arthritis, but he told me early on he was nearly legally blind even WITH his glasses.  I saw him walking across the University mall one day and as he approached a stair he slowed down and groped for the handrail.

IN his 20s I'd bet he was fairly a robust lad.

And I was too enamored of the ironmongery at the time to notice, but yeah, he handled his various artifacts like he was comfortable with them.

The one that goggled me was the damn flamberge.  I was in my mid 20s, about 180 pounds, and definitely fit; not "Big 10 College All Star" level, perhaps, but pretty solid.  The real one handed swords I've handled, both Phil's and others, are much easier to handle than an SCA rattan replica.  Phil's flamberge, however, was quite simply a motherfucker.  I'd have needed to spend some serious time doing weight work if I'd wanted to wield that thing for any amount of time.  I can also see why they were called Dopplensoldaten and paid double; if you got that thing moving, it would be virtually impossible to stop.

Though I never DID figure out how to use that damn Balochustani camel rifle, and Phil never was able to explain.  I conjecture -- and it is ONLY a conjecture -- that you pointed it rather than aimed it, a la some schools of "quick point" short range pistol combat shooting.

http://www.armscollectors.com/darra/afghanold.htm  Two examples, bottom of page.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on February 17, 2016, 11:36:00 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;879728
Though I never DID figure out how to use that damn Balochustani camel rifle, and Phil never was able to explain.  I conjecture -- and it is ONLY a conjecture -- that you pointed it rather than aimed it, a la some schools of "quick point" short range pistol combat shooting.

http://www.armscollectors.com/darra/afghanold.htm  Two examples, bottom of page.
But what does the gun stock rest against? The shooter's stomach, his saddle, the camel's hump?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 17, 2016, 11:44:26 PM
Quote from: Bren;879733
But what does the gun stock rest against? The shooter's stomach, his saddle, the camel's hump?


Part of the confusion!

Near as I remember, it tucks under your armpit!  You fire the damn thing from the chest, not nestled up to the cheek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on February 17, 2016, 11:47:35 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;879737
Part of the confusion!

Near as I remember, it tucks under your armpit!  You fire the damn thing from the chest, not nestled up to the cheek.
Yeah, that just seems dumb. But I was watching a weapon countdown on the Military channel and some guy mentioned that musket's often had less recoil than a more modern military rifle. So maybe the camel gun musket didn't kick as much. Still seems like a good way to bruise a rib though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on February 18, 2016, 05:19:37 AM
Regarding weapon kick/recoil and positioning I'd point out that in the 1879 Anglo-Zulu War a lot of Zulus had rifles of varying sorts but mostly fired them held under their arms rather than aimed as they weren't taught any different and many at Rourkes Drift had only recently acquired then from the British and allied native forces dead at Isandlwana to boot.

I'm going to guess that sighting along a barrel only comes with a relatively accurate weapon. Early handgunners held their weapons under arm and fired that way as the noise and smoke effect was larger than the missile effect of the smallish lead ball.

Nigel
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 18, 2016, 02:23:57 PM
Just as an aside, I'd like to point out that this has turned into pretty much one of the game sessions out at Phil's; lots of fun and interesting discussion, with dice being rolled very now and then...

:)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 18, 2016, 02:24:44 PM
And, I see we're up to 200 pages; astonishing! Who'd have thought it? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 18, 2016, 02:37:09 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;879721
I actually just came across to another reference to the tomb elsewhere. Something about it being located in the secret city of Schyak in far away Nluss. Any more information would be appreciated and welcome. Thanks again.

H:0)


Well, been there; it's no tourist spot, and the locals don't like visitors. The Tomb itself is crammed full of goodies looted by the Dragon Lords from their conquests, and which have been sitting for literally ages in the vaults due to the place being full of - you guessed it! - the really nasty 'black mold' of the title. This stuff isn't the usual 'black mold', familiar to OD&D players, but a semi-sentient lifeform; it's like a huge black carpet made up of fungus, and the spores are simply deadly - you inhale them, they grow, and you get eaten from the inside out, all in a matter of minutes. No revivify, either; your corpse gets absorbed by the parent being or the new 'offspring', and that's that. (Roll up new PC, please.)

Other then that, nice building / vaults, typical of the local pre-Nluss architecture, and a great place not to go to if you want to stay alive. May I suggest Phil's 1948 short story about the origins of the Petal Throne for more?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 18, 2016, 02:40:17 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;879728
Phil was at least two or three inches taller than me, with shoulders to match, and I'm a six-footer.  By the time I met him he not only had the arthritis, but he told me early on he was nearly legally blind even WITH his glasses.  I saw him walking across the University mall one day and as he approached a stair he slowed down and groped for the handrail.

IN his 20s I'd bet he was fairly a robust lad.

And I was too enamored of the ironmongery at the time to notice, but yeah, he handled his various artifacts like he was comfortable with them.

The one that goggled me was the damn flamberge.  I was in my mid 20s, about 180 pounds, and definitely fit; not "Big 10 College All Star" level, perhaps, but pretty solid.  The real one handed swords I've handled, both Phil's and others, are much easier to handle than an SCA rattan replica.  Phil's flamberge, however, was quite simply a motherfucker.  I'd have needed to spend some serious time doing weight work if I'd wanted to wield that thing for any amount of time.  I can also see why they were called Dopplensoldaten and paid double; if you got that thing moving, it would be virtually impossible to stop.

Though I never DID figure out how to use that damn Balochustani camel rifle, and Phil never was able to explain.  I conjecture -- and it is ONLY a conjecture -- that you pointed it rather than aimed it, a la some schools of "quick point" short range pistol combat shooting.

http://www.armscollectors.com/darra/afghanold.htm  Two examples, bottom of page.


He was, Glorious General; have a look at the slide show we did for his memorial event that I have up on YouTube, and you can see him back in his prime. I can see why he was such a commanding presence!

The rifle was gone by 2011; no idea what happened to it, sad to say. I did get  photos of everything else, though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 18, 2016, 03:51:47 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;879835
Well, been there; it's no tourist spot, and the locals don't like visitors. The Tomb itself is crammed full of goodies looted by the Dragon Lords from their conquests, and which have been sitting for literally ages in the vaults due to the place being full of - you guessed it! - the really nasty 'black mold' of the title. This stuff isn't the usual 'black mold', familiar to OD&D players, but a semi-sentient lifeform; it's like a huge black carpet made up of fungus, and the spores are simply deadly - you inhale them, they grow, and you get eaten from the inside out, all in a matter of minutes. No revivify, either; your corpse gets absorbed by the parent being or the new 'offspring', and that's that. (Roll up new PC, please.)

Other then that, nice building / vaults, typical of the local pre-Nluss architecture, and a great place not to go to if you want to stay alive. May I suggest Phil's 1948 short story about the origins of the Petal Throne for more?


Uncle do you speak of the tale of Kharsa of Tsamra-Laris perchance...?

Fantastic.

It reminds me that the moons often times bring doom to those who strive for power and ignore tradition!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 18, 2016, 03:55:31 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;879728
Phil was at least two or three inches taller than me, with shoulders to match, and I'm a six-footer.  By the time I met him he not only had the arthritis, but he told me early on he was nearly legally blind even WITH his glasses.  I saw him walking across the University mall one day and as he approached a stair he slowed down and groped for the handrail.

IN his 20s I'd bet he was fairly a robust lad.

And I was too enamored of the ironmongery at the time to notice, but yeah, he handled his various artifacts like he was comfortable with them.

The one that goggled me was the damn flamberge.  I was in my mid 20s, about 180 pounds, and definitely fit; not "Big 10 College All Star" level, perhaps, but pretty solid.  The real one handed swords I've handled, both Phil's and others, are much easier to handle than an SCA rattan replica.  Phil's flamberge, however, was quite simply a motherfucker.  I'd have needed to spend some serious time doing weight work if I'd wanted to wield that thing for any amount of time.  I can also see why they were called Dopplensoldaten and paid double; if you got that thing moving, it would be virtually impossible to stop.

Though I never DID figure out how to use that damn Balochustani camel rifle, and Phil never was able to explain.  I conjecture -- and it is ONLY a conjecture -- that you pointed it rather than aimed it, a la some schools of "quick point" short range pistol combat shooting.

http://www.armscollectors.com/darra/afghanold.htm  Two examples, bottom of page.


Quote from: chirine ba kal;878843
In my experience with him, he was good at anything he wanted to be good at. He'd study something, and learn - and remember.

From some of the ways he handled his collection of Indo-Persian weapons, he'd gotten some sort of formal instruction in their use at some point in his life; I'd bet on his time as a Fulbright Scholar, studying there, and being out in rural South Asia.

None of us practiced with him, in any sort of formal sense, but he was very fond of us bringing our stuff over - like Gronan, in his armor - and going out onto the lawn (much to the amusement of the neighbors!) to fool around with various things to see how they worked. You could tell from how Phil moved that if hadn't been for the terrible vision and the arthritis, he would have given you a very rough time - and I dare say that he would have been able to give Gronan a run for his money, if he'd been younger and better health.

I do not say this lightly; Gronan, at time, was a pretty durn skilled man-at-arms, and was A Pretty Serious Contender.
Phil also had a height and weight advantage, and only the gods know what kind of experience to call upon.

I took my set of shinai out to his house once, and we had lots and lots of fun sparring - his wife was away, so we got away with it. He knew all the basics, and was reasonably quick - not mobile, due to the arthritis, but quick. I made sure not to bring the bokken out there... :)

No, Phil had a fascinating life, and I am very glad that we got the chance to share part of it with him.

I'm not sure what they used to teach Fulbright scholars, but combining your accounts: if we remove his handicaps, that man would have felt secure flashing some bills in the bad parts of South Asia...:)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;879835
Well, been there; it's no tourist spot, and the locals don't like visitors. The Tomb itself is crammed full of goodies looted by the Dragon Lords from their conquests, and which have been sitting for literally ages in the vaults due to the place being full of - you guessed it! - the really nasty 'black mold' of the title. This stuff isn't the usual 'black mold', familiar to OD&D players, but a semi-sentient lifeform; it's like a huge black carpet made up of fungus, and the spores are simply deadly - you inhale them, they grow, and you get eaten from the inside out, all in a matter of minutes. No revivify, either; your corpse gets absorbed by the parent being or the new 'offspring', and that's that. (Roll up new PC, please.)

Other then that, nice building / vaults, typical of the local pre-Nluss architecture, and a great place not to go to if you want to stay alive. May I suggest Phil's 1948 short story about the origins of the Petal Throne for more?

Note taken: I'm going to avoid that place;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;879832
And, I see we're up to 200 pages; astonishing! Who'd have thought it? :)

Guess I've always been an optimist:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on February 18, 2016, 06:31:49 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;879684
Let me rephrase it.

...

But Phil had trouble squeezing out two nights a week for gaming, and he didn't really have time to deal with "special snowflakes."

Clearer?


Much, thanks.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 19, 2016, 02:03:51 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;879847
Uncle do you speak of the tale of Kharsa of Tsamra-Laris perchance...?

Fantastic.

It reminds me that the moons often times bring doom to those who strive for power and ignore tradition!!!

H:0)


I do, indeed. I first read that story, in the original, on the original paper (!) out at Phil's while helping him sort his TSR paperwork. I can truly say that that was the moment when I realized that I was hooked... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 19, 2016, 02:06:05 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;879848
I'm not sure what they used to teach Fulbright scholars, but combining your accounts: if we remove his handicaps, that man would have felt secure flashing some bills in the bad parts of South Asia...:)

Note taken: I'm going to avoid that place;).

Guess I've always been an optimist:D!


1. I don't know either, but he did once tell us about his adventures with the tongs in Hong Kong...

2. Agreed. I wish I'd avoided it, myself, but I didn't have any choice.

3. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 19, 2016, 02:58:50 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;879929
1. I don't know either, but he did once tell us about his adventures with the tongs in Hong Kong...

2. Agreed. I wish I'd avoided it, myself, but I didn't have any choice.

3. :)

1. And now I think you should tell us about this story, or I can predict a rebellion of your readers:D!
(The more I listen to your tales, the more Phil Barker starts reminding me of a R.E. Howard, except enjoying the benefits of a much better education and life abroad).

2. I'll try to find the other choice, just in case it's possible;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron Opal on February 19, 2016, 09:54:14 AM
In your experience, Chirine, was there any interaction with demons of Stability? There's an entire book on the demons of Change, but are the ones allied to Stability just boring, or what?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 19, 2016, 11:49:26 AM
Quote from: Baron Opal;879994
In your experience, Chirine, was there any interaction with demons of Stability? There's an entire book on the demons of Change, but are the ones allied to Stability just boring, or what?


I was also wondering about the 39 Circles ruled by the minions of Stability...Reading The Book of Ebon Bindings really gives one the sense that we are truly like dri-flies!!! Would you have any knowledge of any of these demons of Stability(greater and lesser)? Thank you.

H:0)

PS My good Baron, if you haven't read The Book of Ebon Bindings(I have a feeling you have)please do so. It is mind-blowing in scope and detail!!! Enjoy
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron Opal on February 19, 2016, 12:11:28 PM
Oh, yes. It is one of the few gaming books that I have that could be home on my antiquarian shelf rather than the gaming shelf. It's just that pretty.

("Shelf" being a vague geographical term in this instance, you understand.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 19, 2016, 12:49:49 PM
Quote from: Baron Opal;880019
Oh, yes. It is one of the few gaming books that I have that could be home on my antiquarian shelf rather than the gaming shelf. It's just that pretty.

("Shelf" being a vague geographical term in this instance, you understand.)


I must admit; I have a(censored)"reading" copy and another pristine copy locked away(to keep the dabblers and world safe)in my horde as well...!!! Kranuontio Mishatlnea Uroshanal is not to be taken lightly, dangerous stuff...

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 19, 2016, 02:55:27 PM
Well, let me take a short run at this for you gents...

There are indeed lots and lots of 'demons' that are allied / aligned with the worshippers of Stability, and I've run into / dealt with more then a few. For a list of the most common / useful ones, I'd suggest S&G II, which has long list of them as part of the 'demon summoning' spell. It's in the Temple level spells, as I recall. "Mitlanyal" might have more - again, I'd have to look.

(I've done models of most of them; yes, I'm an obsessive-compulsive that way...)

The emphasis in the published texts on the Change side of the house is due mostly to the fact that we had no Stability people in Phil's campaigns until the very late 1980s. Everybody, with one exception, played Change, and usually Vimulha or Ksarul. So, we had a pretty strong 'bias' to the sample.

In addition, when we founded the original TNG we had a very strong aversion to the kind of 'power gaming' that the old group liked; one of those players had a habit of summoning demons to do the work at the drop of a hat, and we got kinda tired of it - we were there to play, not to watch some NPC from another plane have all the fun. Summoning demons got to be a crutch in the game play, not A Big Event / SNS, and we (and Phil himself, to be fair) got kind of tired of it.

I do not remember a single incident of a 'demon' being summoned by the group from 1977 to 1987; it wasn't until we got a Stability player in the group that this occurred, and even then it was a pretty minor and low-powered way to get some information. (I did have fun making the golden dragonflies, though.)

So, my play experience didn't feature demons, except as a Very Big Deal / Maximum SNS; I didn't summon any, nor did the other players; we were off exploring the world, almost all the time, and didn't get involved with this kind of thing except in very exceptional circumstances. We were, in many people's opinions, considered pretty lame as players as we didn't play the PvP and power politics around the game table that a lot of gamers seemed to - and still seem to - like.

So, all I can do is direct you to the published sources; it's all I had, myself...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 19, 2016, 03:19:00 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;880039
Well, let me take a short run at this for you gents...

There are indeed lots and lots of 'demons' that are allied / aligned with the worshippers of Stability, and I've run into / dealt with more then a few. For a list of the most common / useful ones, I'd suggest S&G II, which has long list of them as part of the 'demon summoning' spell. It's in the Temple level spells, as I recall. "Mitlanyal" might have more - again, I'd have to look.

(I've done models of most of them; yes, I'm an obsessive-compulsive that way...)

The emphasis in the published texts on the Change side of the house is due mostly to the fact that we had no Stability people in Phil's campaigns until the very late 1980s. Everybody, with one exception, played Change, and usually Vimulha or Ksarul. So, we had a pretty strong 'bias' to the sample.

In addition, when we founded the original TNG we had a very strong aversion to the kind of 'power gaming' that the old group liked; one of those players had a habit of summoning demons to do the work at the drop of a hat, and we got kinda tired of it - we were there to play, not to watch some NPC from another plane have all the fun. Summoning demons got to be a crutch in the game play, not A Big Event / SNS, and we (and Phil himself, to be fair) got kind of tired of it.

I do not remember a single incident of a 'demon' being summoned by the group from 1977 to 1987; it wasn't until we got a Stability player in the group that this occurred, and even then it was a pretty minor and low-powered way to get some information. (I did have fun making the golden dragonflies, though.)

So, my play experience didn't feature demons, except as a Very Big Deal / Maximum SNS; I didn't summon any, nor did the other players; we were off exploring the world, almost all the time, and didn't get involved with this kind of thing except in very exceptional circumstances. We were, in many people's opinions, considered pretty lame as players as we didn't play the PvP and power politics around the game table that a lot of gamers seemed to - and still seem to - like.

So, all I can do is direct you to the published sources; it's all I had, myself...


Lord, since you have let the tiuni out of the bag...could you show us some of your handy work...a few of your favorites models...a glimpse would be fantastic!!!

I will check the reference material sited. Thank you much.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron Opal on February 19, 2016, 03:35:04 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;880039
There are indeed lots and lots of 'demons' that are allied / aligned with the worshippers of Stability, and I've run into / dealt with more then a few. For a list of the most common / useful ones, I'd suggest S&G II, which has long list of them as part of the 'demon summoning' spell. It's in the Temple level spells, as I recall. "Mitlanyal" might have more - again, I'd have to look.


Ah, drat. While I do have a Mitlanyal I do not have S&G II. While there is an amazing amount of information in Mitlanyal, the demonology is lacking.

There must be a Ksarul priest somewhere I can knife, err... I mean barter with to get a copy.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 19, 2016, 04:33:45 PM
Quote from: Baron Opal;880045
Ah, drat. While I do have a Mitlanyal I do not have S&G II. While there is an amazing amount of information in Mitlanyal, the demonology is lacking.

There must be a Ksarul priest somewhere I can knife, err... I mean barter with to get a copy.

 
Ouch!!! If you have Bethorm, spell #74.Demonology(pg102)is the same. It seems that the demons listed are the same as those in S&GII. As for the Demon Princes of Stability that rule the 39 Circles, I will do some more looking. If Mitlanyal has none, then I guess we are out of luck... :0(

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 19, 2016, 06:21:32 PM
Just remember that "Stability" does not equal "nice."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 19, 2016, 06:47:25 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;880067
Just remember that "Stability" does not equal "nice."


Yes...!!!

I could imagine The Lord of Glorious War on Dormoron Plain asking his Miyusal, "What is best in life?". In a cocaphany that shook the mountains, they anwsered their Master, "To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women...!!!".

Handsome creatures indeed!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on February 19, 2016, 09:04:42 PM
Okay. People have been clamouring for "Stability Demons" as long as I can remember.

You can see a few in the "Book of Crystal Bindings" in the old Visitations of Glory fanzine.

Mitlanyal tries to list Stability Demons as well. Mitlanyal is mostly a compilation of pre-existing information (and includes the non-canon but obviously accepted demons in VoG), so I suspect it includes the demons in SoGII, perhaps with a little more text elaboration. Not positive about that, since I do not have a copy of SoGII, but chances are, there is little more about the subject than you will find in Mitlanyal. Mitlanyal's stability demons may be slim pickings, but I doubt there is a whole lot more out there, so my solution would be: make stuff up!!!!

That's what the writers in VoG did, and turned out there was little else to go on, so their stuff became canon!

Funny how often things seemed to work out that way.

You know, Tekumel's published canon is great, and I do care about it, but it is often sparse, lacking, inconsistent, or simply unlikely to be available in a timely manner. So if you really want a bunch of Stability Demons, don't wait for some canon truth that may never come. Just make stuff up. Write your own "Book of Crystal Bindings." You have bought Tekumel, now make it yours.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 19, 2016, 09:19:43 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;880112
Okay. People have been clamouring for "Stability Demons" as long as I can remember.

You can see a few in the "Book of Crystal Bindings" in the old Visitations of Glory fanzine.

Mitlanyal tries to list Stability Demons as well. Mitlanyal is mostly a compilation of pre-existing information (and includes the non-canon but obviously accepted demons in VoG), so I suspect it includes the demons in SoGII, perhaps with a little more text elaboration. Not positive about that, since I do not have a copy of SoGII, but chances are, there is little more about the subject than you will find in Mitlanyal. Mitlanyal's stability demons may be slim pickings, but I doubt there is a whole lot more out there, so my solution would be: make stuff up!!!!

That's what the writers in VoG did, and turned out there was little else to go on, so their stuff became canon!

Funny how often things seemed to work out that way.

You know, Tekumel canon is great, and I do care about it, but it is often sparse, lacking, inconsistent, or simply unlikely to be available. So if you really want a bunch of Stability Demons, don't wait for some canon truth that may never come. Just make stuff up. Write your own "Book of Crystal Bindings." You have bought Tekumel, now make it yours.


Thanks. I will check it out. Somehow The Twenty do listen(I don't know how...). The Foundation has announced that some time in the future...There is a Stability Companion Volume to The Book of Ebon Bindings in the works...!!! Thanks again.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on February 19, 2016, 09:38:11 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;880115
Thanks. I will check it out. Somehow The Twenty do listen(I don't know how...). The Foundation has announced that some time in the future...There is a Stability Companion Volume to The Book of Ebon Bindings in the works...!!! Thanks again.

H:0)


I noticed that too, the other day. Looks like the Foundation's blog expired yesterday, so I can't confirm right now, but as I recall, the stability demons piece is projected for the relatively distant "College at the End of Time" segment of the publication timeline, so again I would suggest, if you want it, make stuff up...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 20, 2016, 02:55:33 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;879936
1. And now I think you should tell us about this story, or I can predict a rebellion of your readers:D!
(The more I listen to your tales, the more Phil Barker starts reminding me of a R.E. Howard, except enjoying the benefits of a much better education and life abroad).

2. I'll try to find the other choice, just in case it's possible;).


Well, all right. This is how Phil told me the story...

So he's traveling through Hong Kong, and his passport gets lost. He goes to the US Consulate, and they start the process of getting him a new one. He doesn't have much money, and the Consulate gives him a little bit to tide him over until he can get going again. It's not a lot of money, so Phil stops and thinks.

He leaves the Consulate, and asks a policeman - in the policeman's native Urdu - for directions to the nearest office of the 'Benevolent Society' that controls this part of town. The officer, after doing a double-take, gives him the directions and Phil heads over to the office where he introduces himself as a Fulbright scholar down on his luck, explaining the situation. The society officials confer with him, over much tea and cakes, and a solution is agreed on.

Phil checks into the society's closest brothel, where (for a very nominal sum, he said) he got room and board for a week. (He said that the food was excellent, by the way.) The US Consulate was a little perturbed, he told me, but everybody else was happy; he got a place to stay that was comfortable and clean, the Chinese society got much 'face', and the British police were happy to be of service. The girls of the house were also happy, as they rotated in and out of his room - he had to have one of them there, in order for the place not to be raided and closed down for running an unlicensed hotel. As Phil put it, "I got to learn several more languages, the girls got a lot of time off, and we all gained weight."

And people wonder where he got it all... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 20, 2016, 02:58:01 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;880042
Lord, since you have let the tiuni out of the bag...could you show us some of your handy work...a few of your favorites models...a glimpse would be fantastic!!!

I will check the reference material sited. Thank you much.

H:0)


Well, all right; let me shoot some photos, and I'll be back to you on this. :)

In the meantime, have a look at the various 'demons' that David Allan has done, over on the Tekumel Yahoo group run by Brett Slocum.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 20, 2016, 02:59:38 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;880055
Ouch!!! If you have Bethorm, spell #74.Demonology(pg102)is the same. It seems that the demons listed are the same as those in S&GII. As for the Demon Princes of Stability that rule the 39 Circles, I will do some more looking. If Mitlanyal has none, then I guess we are out of luck... :0(

H:0)


Oh! Good catch! It's one of the reasons I like "Bethorm"; it's S&G the way it should have been, I think...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 20, 2016, 03:00:28 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;880067
Just remember that "Stability" does not equal "nice."


Ain't that the truth! :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 20, 2016, 03:02:06 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;880112
Okay. People have been clamouring for "Stability Demons" as long as I can remember.

You can see a few in the "Book of Crystal Bindings" in the old Visitations of Glory fanzine.

Mitlanyal tries to list Stability Demons as well. Mitlanyal is mostly a compilation of pre-existing information (and includes the non-canon but obviously accepted demons in VoG), so I suspect it includes the demons in SoGII, perhaps with a little more text elaboration. Not positive about that, since I do not have a copy of SoGII, but chances are, there is little more about the subject than you will find in Mitlanyal. Mitlanyal's stability demons may be slim pickings, but I doubt there is a whole lot more out there, so my solution would be: make stuff up!!!!

That's what the writers in VoG did, and turned out there was little else to go on, so their stuff became canon!

Funny how often things seemed to work out that way.

You know, Tekumel's published canon is great, and I do care about it, but it is often sparse, lacking, inconsistent, or simply unlikely to be available in a timely manner. So if you really want a bunch of Stability Demons, don't wait for some canon truth that may never come. Just make stuff up. Write your own "Book of Crystal Bindings." You have bought Tekumel, now make it yours.


Agreed; there just isn't much on a lot of topics. Unless it came up in the campaign, or from somebody contacting Phil, a lot of things were just never touched on - even in passing, a lot of the time.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 20, 2016, 03:03:36 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;880118
I noticed that too, the other day. Looks like the Foundation's blog expired yesterday, so I can't confirm right now, but as I recall, the stability demons piece is projected for the relatively distant "College at the End of Time" segment of the publication timeline, so again I would suggest, if you want it, make stuff up...


I'm sure it'll be back up, now that you mentioned it. :)

And I do agree with you, too; it's this kind of interaction that keeps Tekumel alive...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 20, 2016, 08:04:32 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;880163
Well, all right. This is how Phil told me the story...

So he's traveling through Hong Kong, and his passport gets lost. He goes to the US Consulate, and they start the process of getting him a new one. He doesn't have much money, and the Consulate gives him a little bit to tide him over until he can get going again. It's not a lot of money, so Phil stops and thinks.

He leaves the Consulate, and asks a policeman - in the policeman's native Urdu - for directions to the nearest office of the 'Benevolent Society' that controls this part of town. The officer, after doing a double-take, gives him the directions and Phil heads over to the office where he introduces himself as a Fulbright scholar down on his luck, explaining the situation. The society officials confer with him, over much tea and cakes, and a solution is agreed on.

Phil checks into the society's closest brothel, where (for a very nominal sum, he said) he got room and board for a week. (He said that the food was excellent, by the way.) The US Consulate was a little perturbed, he told me, but everybody else was happy; he got a place to stay that was comfortable and clean, the Chinese society got much 'face', and the British police were happy to be of service. The girls of the house were also happy, as they rotated in and out of his room - he had to have one of them there, in order for the place not to be raided and closed down for running an unlicensed hotel. As Phil put it, "I got to learn several more languages, the girls got a lot of time off, and we all gained weight."

And people wonder where he got it all... :)

Well, that's a good method of gaining weight, and a fully understandable reason:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;880165
Oh! Good catch! It's one of the reasons I like "Bethorm"; it's S&G the way it should have been, I think...

Yeah, Demonology is on p.102 and lists the kinds of spirits favoured by different temples...
Seriously, guys, why would you want more guidance than that?
Karakan's and Chegarra's spirits are warriors - Heroes of Glory and Warrior in Scarlet, respectively. Hnalla has the Entities of Light. And so on, and so forth...you can easily get a theme. Yes, these are merely the servitors of the greater demons - but why do you think they would/need to be that different:D?
My personal rule is, "Stability - simple majestic humanoids, birds or animal-like forms", "Change - mixes of at least two of the above, preferably corpseaters (which you never use for Stability), and/or South Asian/South American mythical creatures, insects, fishes, reptiles and single-cell creatures". Mix and match to your heart's content:p.
Add more of these to make new Greater Demons for Change, or make them even more majestic, and possibly cross them with usually inanimate, but precious materials, and you can make Greater Demons for Stability;)!

There, you now have material to write your own Tekumel demonology books. Are they written by MAR Barker? No. Would he approve of them?
In all likelyhood, yes. I believe he would very much approve of them.
Now, the Tekumel Foundation might disapprove, but I didn't say you need to publish them...:)

Here is a Greater Demon of Avanthe I made after reading the above and thinking for all of 15 seconds.
"Tehanul, the Sky Snake
Tehanul is a great blue-eyed snake made entirely of air. It appears as a simmering form of yellow air which also carries droplets of rain and fertile soil. Where it passes, the flora blooms and starts growing, which means you're better off invoking it in more civilised areas. Indeed, it has been invoked just for its blessings to agriculture, or to give its blessing to barren women or barren prize animals, to calm storms that would threaten a caster's life, or to restore to life and health people afflicted by a seemingly invincible disease.
The being needs to be invoked in a fertile soil ready to be sown, or in the wilderness. If it's invoked on infertile soil, its wrath shall be great, and it might shoot lightning from its glowing blue eyes, which is powerful enough to destroy the caster.
The being likes pearls, and perfect specimens of different kinds of animals, and especially pairs of the above. A caster that wants its blessings, should prepare himself or herself by purifying his or her body, copulating with at least one of his or her legal husbands/wives in a way that might produce offspring, and then intoning the words provided herein while dancing around in a circle with a 60-steps diameter. If the being is pleased, it would appear and you'd be able to negotiate".

Chirine can tell us whether that seems like a suitable demon for Avanthe;). I think there should be a bigger price to invoking it, but didn't come with anything suitable in the time allotment I gave myself. It's simply an example, after all.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;880166
Ain't that the truth! :eek:

Well, remembering what people are able to do in pursuit of or protection of stability is a good way to make yourself shudder;). So yeah, I would not expect them to be nice, at all.
"People can be nice. Supernateral creatures just are, like rivers and storms aren't nice" to quote two of my own PCs in different settings (Glorantha and Exalted, if anyone cares). I feel the same would apply to Tekumel as well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on February 20, 2016, 10:58:21 AM
I think that is a major problem these days.
There seems to be an unwritten rule that you can't "Make Things Up" for your Own Game in a published setting.

I don't feel bad at all to use the base Hlyss from the book and derive a selection of alternate versions.

Am I WRONG to do this? Is it a sin??
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 20, 2016, 11:13:47 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;880219
I think that is a major problem these days.
There seems to be an unwritten rule that you can't "Make Things Up" for your Own Game in a published setting.

I don't feel bad at all to use the base Hlyss from the book and derive a selection of alternate versions.

Am I WRONG to do this? Is it a sin??
=

I suppose it should be a sin. But you know what they say, you go to Heavens for the climate, but to Hell for the company:).
If all the good GMs are in Hell, that would definitely help explain the quote;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on February 20, 2016, 01:23:18 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;880219
I think that is a major problem these days.
There seems to be an unwritten rule that you can't "Make Things Up" for your Own Game in a published setting.

I don't feel bad at all to use the base Hlyss from the book and derive a selection of alternate versions.

Am I WRONG to do this? Is it a sin??
=


Of course you aren't wrong. Isn't rpging supposed to be a creative pastime? The sin is to NOT create.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 20, 2016, 01:31:29 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;880244
Of course you aren't wrong. Isn't rpging supposed to be a creative pastime? The sin is to NOT create.


I approve your anti-consumerism stance;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on February 20, 2016, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;880192
Well, that's a good method of gaining weight, and a fully understandable reason:).


Yeah, Demonology is on p.102 and lists the kinds of spirits favoured by different temples...
Seriously, guys, why would you want more guidance than that?
Karakan's and Chegarra's spirits are warriors - Heroes of Glory and Warrior in Scarlet, respectively. Hnalla has the Entities of Light. And so on, and so forth...you can easily get a theme. Yes, these are merely the servitors of the greater demons - but why do you think they would/need to be that different:D?
My personal rule is, "Stability - simple majestic humanoids, birds or animal-like forms", "Change - mixes of at least two of the above, preferably corpseaters (which you never use for Stability), and/or South Asian/South American mythical creatures, insects, fishes, reptiles and single-cell creatures". Mix and match to your heart's content:p.
Add more of these to make new Greater Demons for Change, or make them even more majestic, and possibly cross them with usually inanimate, but precious materials, and you can make Greater Demons for Stability;)!

There, you now have material to write your own Tekumel demonology books. Are they written by MAR Barker? No. Would he approve of them?
In all likelyhood, yes. I believe he would very much approve of them.
Now, the Tekumel Foundation might disapprove, but I didn't say you need to publish them...:)

Here is a Greater Demon of Avanthe I made after reading the above and thinking for all of 15 seconds.
"Tehanul, the Sky Snake
Tehanul is a great blue-eyed snake made entirely of air. It appears as a simmering form of yellow air which also carries droplets of rain and fertile soil. Where it passes, the flora blooms and starts growing, which means you're better off invoking it in more civilised areas. Indeed, it has been invoked just for its blessings to agriculture, or to give its blessing to barren women or barren prize animals, to calm storms that would threaten a caster's life, or to restore to life and health people afflicted by a seemingly invincible disease.
The being needs to be invoked in a fertile soil ready to be sown, or in the wilderness. If it's invoked on infertile soil, its wrath shall be great, and it might shoot lightning from its glowing blue eyes, which is powerful enough to destroy the caster.
The being likes pearls, and perfect specimens of different kinds of animals, and especially pairs of the above. A caster that wants its blessings, should prepare himself or herself by purifying his or her body, copulating with at least one of his or her legal husbands/wives in a way that might produce offspring, and then intoning the words provided herein while dancing around in a circle with a 60-steps diameter. If the being is pleased, it would appear and you'd be able to negotiate".

Chirine can tell us whether that seems like a suitable demon for Avanthe;). I think there should be a bigger price to invoking it, but didn't come with anything suitable in the time allotment I gave myself. It's simply an example, after all.


Well, remembering what people are able to do in pursuit of or protection of stability is a good way to make yourself shudder;). So yeah, I would not expect them to be nice, at all.
"People can be nice. Supernateral creatures just are, like rivers and storms aren't nice" to quote two of my own PCs in different settings (Glorantha and Exalted, if anyone cares). I feel the same would apply to Tekumel as well.


I'm no authority, but Tehanul works for me. Based on the demons in Mitlanyal, I would also agree with your formula for generating stability demons, but with the proviso that at least some stability demons should have qualities every bit as grotesque, or even repulsive, as those of Change. Good to mix it up a bit.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on February 20, 2016, 01:57:26 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;880245
I approve your anti-consumerism stance;).


Hey! I'm not anti-consuming, just... pro-creating. Well, not right at this moment, of course!

I realize the industry's ideal gaming community is one that just passively consumes product and then waits patiently for the next feeding time. I don' t mind consuming a little product now and then, but for that to be the be-all and end-all? no thanks.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 20, 2016, 02:10:59 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;880246
I'm no authority, but Tehanul works for me. Based on the demons in Mitlanyal, I would also agree with your formula for generating stability demons, but with the proviso that at least some stability demons should have qualities every bit as grotesque, or even repulsive, as those of Change. Good to mix it up a bit.

I've never seen a copy of Mitlanyal, unless I'm gravely mistaken about the name, and have the PDF of it under a different name.
Still, I'm just applying first principles. Some traits are simply associated with different things. The two pantheons are also associated with different traits. Checking the traits, you get what things are going to be seen as fitting for a god.
That's why Vimuhla faithful shouldn't eat fish, for example, so we know MAR Barker was keenly aware of this fact as well:D.

Quote from: Zirunel;880249
Hey! I'm not anti-consuming, just... pro-creating. Well, not right at this moment, of course!

I realize the industry's ideal gaming community is one that just passively consumes product and then waits patiently for the next feeding time. I don' t mind consuming a little product now and then, but for that to be the be-all and end-all? no thanks.

"The sin is to  NOT create", you said:). And your last paragraph in this post is also an anti-consumerism stance.
Mind, I'm not talking about anti-consuming, which is an act, but anti-consumerism, which is an attitude;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 20, 2016, 02:18:44 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;880163
Well, all right. This is how Phil told me the story...

So he's traveling through Hong Kong, and his passport gets lost. He goes to the US Consulate, and they start the process of getting him a new one. He doesn't have much money, and the Consulate gives him a little bit to tide him over until he can get going again. It's not a lot of money, so Phil stops and thinks.

He leaves the Consulate, and asks a policeman - in the policeman's native Urdu - for directions to the nearest office of the 'Benevolent Society' that controls this part of town. The officer, after doing a double-take, gives him the directions and Phil heads over to the office where he introduces himself as a Fulbright scholar down on his luck, explaining the situation. The society officials confer with him, over much tea and cakes, and a solution is agreed on.

Phil checks into the society's closest brothel, where (for a very nominal sum, he said) he got room and board for a week. (He said that the food was excellent, by the way.) The US Consulate was a little perturbed, he told me, but everybody else was happy; he got a place to stay that was comfortable and clean, the Chinese society got much 'face', and the British police were happy to be of service. The girls of the house were also happy, as they rotated in and out of his room - he had to have one of them there, in order for the place not to be raided and closed down for running an unlicensed hotel. As Phil put it, "I got to learn several more languages, the girls got a lot of time off, and we all gained weight."

And people wonder where he got it all... :)


Hell of a story, isn't it.

You know, I sometimes think that modern technology is a two edged sword.  Nowadays if I were stranded in Hong Kong I could probably have money from a relative ... likely in the form of a limited fund debit card... in a matter of a few hours, and all done by phone, since long distance phone calls are now a trivial expense.

The world may be safer and more certain, but less adventuresome.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 20, 2016, 02:25:02 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;880255
Hell of a story, isn't it.

You know, I sometimes think that modern technology is a two edged sword.  Nowadays if I were stranded in Hong Kong I could probably have money from a relative ... likely in the form of a limited fund debit card... in a matter of a few hours, and all done by phone, since long distance phone calls are now a trivial expense.

The world may be safer and more certain, but less adventuresome.


Technology is changing society since the first monkey noticed he can beat bigger monkeys that used to boss him around, when he uses that fun device called a "stick";).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 20, 2016, 02:33:03 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;880192
Well, that's a good method of gaining weight, and a fully understandable reason:).


Yeah, Demonology is on p.102 and lists the kinds of spirits favoured by different temples...
Seriously, guys, why would you want more guidance than that?
Karakan's and Chegarra's spirits are warriors - Heroes of Glory and Warrior in Scarlet, respectively. Hnalla has the Entities of Light. And so on, and so forth...you can easily get a theme. Yes, these are merely the servitors of the greater demons - but why do you think they would/need to be that different:D?
My personal rule is, "Stability - simple majestic humanoids, birds or animal-like forms", "Change - mixes of at least two of the above, preferably corpseaters (which you never use for Stability), and/or South Asian/South American mythical creatures, insects, fishes, reptiles and single-cell creatures". Mix and match to your heart's content:p.
Add more of these to make new Greater Demons for Change, or make them even more majestic, and possibly cross them with usually inanimate, but precious materials, and you can make Greater Demons for Stability;)!

There, you now have material to write your own Tekumel demonology books. Are they written by MAR Barker? No. Would he approve of them?
In all likelyhood, yes. I believe he would very much approve of them.
Now, the Tekumel Foundation might disapprove, but I didn't say you need to publish them...:)

Here is a Greater Demon of Avanthe I made after reading the above and thinking for all of 15 seconds.
"Tehanul, the Sky Snake
Tehanul is a great blue-eyed snake made entirely of air. It appears as a simmering form of yellow air which also carries droplets of rain and fertile soil. Where it passes, the flora blooms and starts growing, which means you're better off invoking it in more civilised areas. Indeed, it has been invoked just for its blessings to agriculture, or to give its blessing to barren women or barren prize animals, to calm storms that would threaten a caster's life, or to restore to life and health people afflicted by a seemingly invincible disease.
The being needs to be invoked in a fertile soil ready to be sown, or in the wilderness. If it's invoked on infertile soil, its wrath shall be great, and it might shoot lightning from its glowing blue eyes, which is powerful enough to destroy the caster.
The being likes pearls, and perfect specimens of different kinds of animals, and especially pairs of the above. A caster that wants its blessings, should prepare himself or herself by purifying his or her body, copulating with at least one of his or her legal husbands/wives in a way that might produce offspring, and then intoning the words provided herein while dancing around in a circle with a 60-steps diameter. If the being is pleased, it would appear and you'd be able to negotiate".

Chirine can tell us whether that seems like a suitable demon for Avanthe;). I think there should be a bigger price to invoking it, but didn't come with anything suitable in the time allotment I gave myself. It's simply an example, after all.


Well, remembering what people are able to do in pursuit of or protection of stability is a good way to make yourself shudder;). So yeah, I would not expect them to be nice, at all.
"People can be nice. Supernateral creatures just are, like rivers and storms aren't nice" to quote two of my own PCs in different settings (Glorantha and Exalted, if anyone cares). I feel the same would apply to Tekumel as well.


I like. I had just been wondering if there were any Stability Demons out there on par with let's say Origob. But I see that I would have to come up with such a being as needed...Thanks for the tips.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 20, 2016, 04:04:58 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;880261
I like. I had just been wondering if there were any Stability Demons out there on par with let's say Origob. But I see that I would have to come up with such a being as needed...Thanks for the tips.

H:0)


You're welcome, glad it's helpful:).

Of course, Chirine might well have objections, and in this case, I'd recommend you to keep them in mind. But either way, it was meant merely as a starting point for other Tekumel Referees;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on February 20, 2016, 06:04:38 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;880219
I think that is a major problem these days.
There seems to be an unwritten rule that you can't "Make Things Up" for your Own Game in a published setting.
This is like one of those brain teasers.

The unwritten rule is supposed to prevent "Making Things Up." So in other words the unwritten rule is to prevent people from adding unwritten elements to a published, i.e. written, setting.

I don't think that an unwritten rule should be allowed to do that. The unwritten rule would first have to be written down. And then published.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 20, 2016, 06:06:34 PM
Quote from: Bren;880300
This is like one of those brain teasers.

The unwritten rule is supposed to prevent "Making Things Up." So in other words the unwritten rule is to prevent people from adding unwritten elements to a published, i.e. written, setting.

I don't think that an unwritten rule should be allowed to do that. The unwritten rule would first have to be written down. And then published.


And then it would be mocked mercilessly;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 20, 2016, 11:31:20 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;879929
1. I don't know either, but he did once tell us about his adventures with the tongs in Hong Kong...


"Hong Kong Mah Johngg and Ping Pong club, meets Tuesdays"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 21, 2016, 05:30:08 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;880351
"Hong Kong Mah Johngg and Ping Pong club, meets Tuesdays"


Something like that, but with a brothel and native food;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: nDervish on February 21, 2016, 07:47:41 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;880067
Just remember that "Stability" does not equal "nice."


Would have been late 80s that I got a space empire-building computer game specifically because of the text on the back, which began:

Quote

Pax Galactum
There's nothing so peaceful as a dead alien.


Similarly, lying in a grave is a very stable position.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on February 21, 2016, 08:13:37 AM
Quote from: nDervish;880424
Similarly, lying in a grave is a very stable position.
All localized plate tectonics being equal.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on February 21, 2016, 09:25:38 AM
Quote from: Bren;880300
This is like one of those brain teasers.

The unwritten rule is supposed to prevent "Making Things Up." So in other words the unwritten rule is to prevent people from adding unwritten elements to a published, i.e. written, setting.

I don't think that an unwritten rule should be allowed to do that. The unwritten rule would first have to be written down. And then published.


There is a lot of money to be made by promoting that only "Officially Published" is correct for play.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 21, 2016, 11:46:04 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;880164
Well, all right; let me shoot some photos, and I'll be back to you on this. :)

In the meantime, have a look at the various 'demons' that David Allan has done, over on the Tekumel Yahoo group run by Brett Slocum.


Uncle, I will need help with this one. I scoured the boards...post by post. I must have missed it...A bit of help would be great. Thanks

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 21, 2016, 11:52:48 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;880276
You're welcome, glad it's helpful:).

Of course, Chirine might well have objections, and in this case, I'd recommend you to keep them in mind. But either way, it was meant merely as a starting point for other Tekumel Referees;).

 
Somehow I don't thing Lord Chirine would mind. It is in the spirit of the original...I all ready stored away Tehanul for a rainy day(to be released sometime in the future).Thank you!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 21, 2016, 02:58:04 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;880449
Uncle, I will need help with this one. I scoured the boards...post by post. I must have missed it...A bit of help would be great. Thanks

H:0)


I am currently in the middle of working back-to-back National hockey League games this weekend, as well as getting the main sewer drain unclogged (maple tree roots) and will be back as soon as I can. In the meantime:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/tekumel/photos/albums/948739548/lightbox/664609940#zax/664609940 (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/tekumel/photos/albums/948739548/lightbox/664609940#zax/664609940)

This is a sample of David Allen's work in 3-D printing. I think if you trim down the URL, you can see more and get the group itself; I think you have to be a member, though.

More to come - 5:30 pm call for a 6:30 pm - 12:00 am show, then I'm off to rescue Second Daughter at midnight...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 21, 2016, 03:22:03 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;880460
I am currently in the middle of working back-to-back National hockey League games this weekend, as well as getting the main sewer drain unclogged (maple tree roots) and will be back as soon as I can. In the meantime:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/tekumel/photos/albums/948739548/lightbox/664609940#zax/664609940 (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/tekumel/photos/albums/948739548/lightbox/664609940#zax/664609940)

This is a sample of David Allen's work in 3-D printing. I think if you trim down the URL, you can see more and get the group itself; I think you have to be a member, though.

More to come - 5:30 pm call for a 6:30 pm - 12:00 am show, then I'm off to rescue Second Daughter at midnight...


Thank you!!! May your rescue be successful!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 21, 2016, 05:04:56 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;880460
as well as getting the main sewer drain unclogged (maple tree roots)


They're a real pisser, aren't they!  For those of you who've never owned a house, you cannot IMAGINE what a pain this is.  Like coming home and finding a foot of raw sewage in the basement, in a worse case scenario.  Never happened to me personally but I know folks for whom it has.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: rawma on February 21, 2016, 08:27:15 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;880472
Like coming home and finding a foot of raw sewage in the basement, in a worse case scenario.  Never happened to me personally but I know folks for whom it has.


I experienced a mild case of that 20 years ago. Followed by annual preventive efforts for several years. I believe it was caused by the birch; after it fell on the car in the driveway (very little damage, fortunately), there were no further problems with the sewer drain. I still hate that tree. :mad:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 22, 2016, 12:51:40 PM
And I'm back. Upwards of 95,000 people, and a ball of tree roots as big as your head. At least I got some sleep, last night...

And watching all the productions crews wrestling all the road boxes in the universe and freezing their butts off in the process reminded me, yet again, how glad I am that I am retired from the show production business - we used to come into a convention center, unload, set up, do the show, tear down, and load up to go home. Wonderful way to spend a week in say, San Francisco, where the only thing we'd see wold be the main ballroom of the Moscone Center...

Been really enjoying the conversation. More in a moment... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 22, 2016, 12:52:55 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;880433
There is a lot of money to be made by promoting that only "Officially Published" is correct for play.
=


And a lot of insecure ego to be massaged, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 22, 2016, 12:59:53 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;880450
Somehow I don't thing Lord Chirine would mind. It is in the spirit of the original...I all ready stored away Tehanul for a rainy day(to be released sometime in the future).Thank you!!!

H:0)


I had to stop and take a deep breath over the idea that I might have some sort of objections to what Hrugga was talking about.

As I think I've mentioned, I am a 'populist', I strongly support the help, assistance, and support of fans, as I think Gronan has also mentioned; they are what keep Tekumel alive and kicking. And that's not my original thought - Phil said so himself, way back when.

Ideas and contributions like Hrugga's would have made it right into our old 'zines, about ten seconds after Phil saw and liked them. Mind you, we'd be then up to our butts in Stability demons for the next six months, but them's the breaks.

I am, and have always been, an archivist (and a model builder, but that's beside the point.) who records, preserves, and responds. I do not object to things; all I can point out is what Phil did and did not do in the time I had with him...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 22, 2016, 01:05:35 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;880463
Thank you!!! May your rescue be successful!!!

H:0)


It was, thank you; she gets off work at midnight, out in an area where there is no bus service. She can't drive, due to the head injuries her mother gave her over the years, so I try to make sure that she gets home safely.

I'm maybe a little over-protective of her, but then I never expected to have to deal with kids who had such things done to them by their parents. All five of the daughters have had 'issues' (and we'll leave out the horrid details, thank you), which is why they came to us in the first place.

It's been a long, sordid, decade.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on February 22, 2016, 02:01:05 PM
Do these Hlyss versions from "Chitin" seem reasonable?
I envision raiding parties of Hlyss as good opponents of Heros and don't want just clones of the original.

The original version of Hlyss:
Damage: D6
Armor Class: 4
Movement: 9"
Hit Dice: 2

== Gantua: (Heavies)
Damage: D6
Armor Class: 2
Movement: 6"
Hit Dice: 4

== Phlanx: (Lance)
Damage: D6+2
Armor Class: 4
Movement: 9"
Hit Dice: 3

== Termagant: (Polearm)
Damage: D6 x3
Armor Class: 6
Movement: 120"
Hit Dice: 2

== Low Render: (Sword)
Damage: D6 x2
Armor Class: 6
Movement: 120"
Hit Dice: 2

== Low Hacker: ("Predator")
Damage: D6 x2
Armor Class: 4
Movement: 90"
Hit Dice: 2

== Arch Reaper: (Javelin throwers)
Damage: D6 x2 (+D6 x4 missle)
Armor Class: 4
Movement: 90"
Hit Dice: 2

== Plunge: (Aerial Divers)
Damage: D6+2
Armor Class: 9
Movement: 60 / 240"
Hit Dice: 1

== Workers and Basics:
Damage: D4
Armor Class: 7
Movement: 120"
Hit Dice: 2

** Basics: Telepathic command units that control all but the Low Hackers.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 22, 2016, 02:25:56 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;880607
I had to stop and take a deep breath over the idea that I might have some sort of objections to what Hrugga was talking about.

As I think I've mentioned, I am a 'populist', I strongly support the help, assistance, and support of fans, as I think Gronan has also mentioned; they are what keep Tekumel alive and kicking. And that's not my original thought - Phil said so himself, way back when.

Ideas and contributions like Hrugga's would have made it right into our old 'zines, about ten seconds after Phil saw and liked them. Mind you, we'd be then up to our butts in Stability demons for the next six months, but them's the breaks.

I am, and have always been, an archivist (and a model builder, but that's beside the point.) who records, preserves, and responds. I do not object to things; all I can point out is what Phil did and did not do in the time I had with him...


You mean Lord Asen's contribution...I am just an aficionado. Enjoying the discussion!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 22, 2016, 02:36:18 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;880607
I had to stop and take a deep breath over the idea that I might have some sort of objections to what Hrugga was talking about.

As I think I've mentioned, I am a 'populist', I strongly support the help, assistance, and support of fans, as I think Gronan has also mentioned; they are what keep Tekumel alive and kicking. And that's not my original thought - Phil said so himself, way back when.

Ideas and contributions like Hrugga's would have made it right into our old 'zines, about ten seconds after Phil saw and liked them. Mind you, we'd be then up to our butts in Stability demons for the next six months, but them's the breaks.

I am, and have always been, an archivist (and a model builder, but that's beside the point.) who records, preserves, and responds. I do not object to things; all I can point out is what Phil did and did not do in the time I had with him...

I know you're a populist, Uncle. So am I, so I didn't expect you to object because Only Phil Can* Create Tekumel Content, or something:).

My point by letting you an opportunity to object was to let you tell us whether Phil had guidelines like this, and whether something in them contradicted my system. Say, if there's an ant kind on Tekumel that's associated with Avanthe**, that would require adding an exception for ants...;)
I'm simply not familiar with such details in the setting, so couldn't include them in the original guideline.

But overall, if you think it works well enough for now, it's probably time to make a random generator out of it:p!
I'll see what I can do...;)

*Obviously, even Phil can't create Tekumel content. He wasn't a person of colour, to begin with, not to mention that we don't have data whether he was bi enough:D.

**Say, because they understand that said insect helps the fertlization of the soil. Or it might be scarabs sacred for the Lord of Dead if you have to have at least part of your body be eaten by them post-mortem to get in the right Heavens. If you don't, you end up instead in the Hells of whichever god's or goddess' servants you had offended the most in your life;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 22, 2016, 03:47:16 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;880628
I know you're a populist, Uncle. So am I, so I didn't expect you to object because Only Phil Can* Create Tekumel Content, or something:).

My point by letting you an opportunity to object was to let you tell us whether Phil had guidelines like this, and whether something in them contradicted my system. Say, if there's an ant kind on Tekumel that's associated with Avanthe**, that would require adding an exception for ants...;)
I'm simply not familiar with such details in the setting, so couldn't include them in the original guideline.

But overall, if you think it works well enough for now, it's probably time to make a random generator out of it:p!
I'll see what I can do...;)

*Obviously, even Phil can't create Tekumel content. He wasn't a person of colour, to begin with, not to mention that we don't have data whether he was bi enough:D.

**Say, because they understand that said insect helps the fertlization of the soil.


I was thinking the same thing. Random generator using the demon powers pdf, taking parts of different creatures(from Tekumel and other "planes")and seeing what happens. Kind of like A Hundred Hellish Hordings...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 22, 2016, 03:55:30 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;880625
You mean Lord Asen's contribution...I am just an aficionado. Enjoying the discussion!!!

H:0)

Thanks, man, but I'm just an afficionado as well:).

Quote from: Hrugga;880641
I was thinking the same thing. Random generator using the demon powers pdf, taking parts of different creatures(from Tekumel and other "planes")and seeing what happens. Kind of like A Hundred Hellish Hordings...

H:0)

I was thinking of creating a "One-Roll Demon", but I realised I'd need a d30 dicepool, and gave up:D.
Thank you for reminding me I have purchased the Demon Powers PDF;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on February 22, 2016, 06:01:25 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;880621
Do these Hlyss versions from "Chitin" seem reasonable?
I envision raiding parties of Hlyss as good opponents of Heros and don't want just clones of the original.

The original version of Hlyss:
Damage: D6
Armor Class: 4
Movement: 9"
Hit Dice: 2

== Gantua: (Heavies)
Damage: D6
Armor Class: 2
Movement: 6"
Hit Dice: 4

== Phlanx: (Lance)
Damage: D6+2
Armor Class: 4
Movement: 9"
Hit Dice: 3

== Termagant: (Polearm)
Damage: D6 x3
Armor Class: 6
Movement: 120"
Hit Dice: 2

== Low Render: (Sword)
Damage: D6 x2
Armor Class: 6
Movement: 120"
Hit Dice: 2

== Low Hacker: ("Predator")
Damage: D6 x2
Armor Class: 4
Movement: 90"
Hit Dice: 2

== Arch Reaper: (Javelin throwers)
Damage: D6 x2 (+D6 x4 missle)
Armor Class: 4
Movement: 90"
Hit Dice: 2

== Plunge: (Aerial Divers)
Damage: D6+2
Armor Class: 9
Movement: 60 / 240"
Hit Dice: 1

== Workers and Basics:
Damage: D4
Armor Class: 7
Movement: 120"
Hit Dice: 2

** Basics: Telepathic command units that control all but the Low Hackers.
=



somehow this reminds me of the beasts deployed by Vance's DragonMasters.

Personally, I've never looked that closely at the Hluss, so i don't know what the "official" stance on these would be, but why not? You could have differentiation of specialists within each hive, which I think is what you have in mind. But also, who says all Hluss hives have to be alike? I've always had the vague sense that individual hives were more or less independent, why not genetically as well?

The only thing I might suggest is you need a class of jewel-encrusted elite types, presumably with some magical ability...perhaps like your basics but a step above basic....oh yeah, and "queens"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on February 22, 2016, 07:03:18 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;880667
somehow this reminds me of the beasts deployed by Vance's DragonMasters.

Personally, I've never looked that closely at the Hluss, so i don't know what the "official" stance on these would be, but why not? You could have differentiation of specialists within each hive, which I think is what you have in mind. But also, who says all Hluss hives have to be alike? I've always had the vague sense that individual hives were more or less independent, why not genetically as well?

The only thing I might suggest is you need a class of jewel-encrusted elite types, presumably with some magical ability...perhaps like your basics but a step above basic....oh yeah, and "queens"


I was envisioning them as creating tech "organically" instead of with manufacturing.
Their biggest downside is that they need a living human sized body to grow a new baby Hlyss on.
This restricts population growth.
So instead of cranking out endless clones the individuals get better at what they were "designed" to do.
I'm sure that they can progress as well as players do and as you say, some classic jewel-encrusted elites would exist.

(A little "Starship Troopers" vibe too.)
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 22, 2016, 07:07:17 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;880667
somehow this reminds me of the beasts deployed by Vance's DragonMasters.

Personally, I've never looked that closely at the Hluss, so i don't know what the "official" stance on these would be, but why not? You could have differentiation of specialists within each hive, which I think is what you have in mind. But also, who says all Hluss hives have to be alike? I've always had the vague sense that individual hives were more or less independent, why not genetically as well?

The only thing I might suggest is you need a class of jewel-encrusted elite types, presumably with some magical ability...perhaps like your basics but a step above basic....oh yeah, and "queens"


Wow!!! I thought they were tuff enough as is. A Queen and some jewel-encrusted duelist/bodyguards may be too much for anyone, but some Hero's of the Age to handle!!! Dangerous...not to mention their great Hive Ship too. Good stuff.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 22, 2016, 07:09:40 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;880689
I was envisioning them as creating tech "organically" instead of with manufacturing.
Their biggest downside is that they need a living human sized body to grow a new baby Hlyss on.
This restricts population growth.
So instead of cranking out endless clones the individuals get better at what they were "designed" to do.
I'm sure that they can progress as well as players do and as you say, some classic jewel-encrusted elites would exist.

(A little "Starship Troopers" vibe too.)
=

 
Slow birth/grow rate is a good thing. At least from the human point of view...

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 22, 2016, 08:56:42 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;880690
Wow!!! I thought they were tuff enough as is. A Queen and some jewel-encrusted duelist/bodyguards may be too much for anyone, but some Hero's of the Age to handle!!! Dangerous...not to mention their great Hive Ship too. Good stuff.

H:0)


Chirine, my compliments to the commander of the Lightning Bringer cohort, and she may commence fire at her pleasure...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 23, 2016, 12:48:25 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;880621
Do these Hlyss versions from "Chitin" seem reasonable?
I envision raiding parties of Hlyss as good opponents of Heros and don't want just clones of the original.

The original version of Hlyss:
Damage: D6
Armor Class: 4
Movement: 9"
Hit Dice: 2


Well, they should be, frankly. They were fearsome opponents, and the stakes were always very, very high when we encountered them.

These look good. In our encounters with them, we saw a number of different 'castes': workers, who did all the basic lifting and carrying and which were not any good at fighting; warriors, who were more optimized for combat - very fast and skilled; magic-users, not all that good in combat but very expert with devices and spells; 'lords', leaders who were usually very good warriors or magic-users, and - as Zirunel points out, usually pretty encrusted with gems set into their chitin; 'drones', who were anything but passive, and were the 'breeder males' that served the 'queens' as mates, servants, and elite guards; 'techs', who seemed to be a sub-caste of magic-users and who did the hive ship propulsion and manned the really heavy weapons.

Finally, you have the immobile and gargantuan 'queens' who do nothing by produce eggs for the hive. David Allan has done a very good model of one, that gives me the creeps any time I look at it.

So, yes, I'd have different stats for each caste, and they do look different when you see them. We didn't encounter Hlyss very much, and when we did it was normally at sea. The one fight we had with a nest ship was enough for all of us, thank you...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 23, 2016, 12:51:08 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;880628
I know you're a populist, Uncle. So am I, so I didn't expect you to object because Only Phil Can* Create Tekumel Content, or something:).

My point by letting you an opportunity to object was to let you tell us whether Phil had guidelines like this, and whether something in them contradicted my system. Say, if there's an ant kind on Tekumel that's associated with Avanthe**, that would require adding an exception for ants...;)
I'm simply not familiar with such details in the setting, so couldn't include them in the original guideline.

But overall, if you think it works well enough for now, it's probably time to make a random generator out of it:p!
I'll see what I can do...;)

*Obviously, even Phil can't create Tekumel content. He wasn't a person of colour, to begin with, not to mention that we don't have data whether he was bi enough:D.

**Say, because they understand that said insect helps the fertlization of the soil. Or it might be scarabs sacred for the Lord of Dead if you have to have at least part of your body be eaten by them post-mortem to get in the right Heavens. If you don't, you end up instead in the Hells of whichever god's or goddess' servants you had offended the most in your life;).


Phil never had any formal guidelines for anything. If he liked it, and thought that it fitted in with his view of how the place worked, then it was 'in' and he'd use it. Over the time that I was his publisher, we got to know what he liked, and so we could screen things out that came in the door and were simply not going to fly with him.

Both your approaches are fine. He'd have liked this.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 23, 2016, 12:52:38 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;880667
somehow this reminds me of the beasts deployed by Vance's DragonMasters.

Personally, I've never looked that closely at the Hluss, so i don't know what the "official" stance on these would be, but why not? You could have differentiation of specialists within each hive, which I think is what you have in mind. But also, who says all Hluss hives have to be alike? I've always had the vague sense that individual hives were more or less independent, why not genetically as well?

The only thing I might suggest is you need a class of jewel-encrusted elite types, presumably with some magical ability...perhaps like your basics but a step above basic....oh yeah, and "queens"


What you said. yes, the hives don't seem all that 'well-connected', which is just fine by me...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 23, 2016, 12:54:17 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;880689
I was envisioning them as creating tech "organically" instead of with manufacturing.
Their biggest downside is that they need a living human sized body to grow a new baby Hlyss on.
This restricts population growth.
So instead of cranking out endless clones the individuals get better at what they were "designed" to do.
I'm sure that they can progress as well as players do and as you say, some classic jewel-encrusted elites would exist.

(A little "Starship Troopers" vibe too.)
=


I'd agree with this. They use their chitin to make their ships, for example. And the slow growth rate is about the only reason we're all still alive; we humans breed so much faster, and it's about our only real advantage on the planet...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 23, 2016, 12:55:51 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;880690
Wow!!! I thought they were tuff enough as is. A Queen and some jewel-encrusted duelist/bodyguards may be too much for anyone, but some Hero's of the Age to handle!!! Dangerous...not to mention their great Hive Ship too. Good stuff.

H:0)


They are very, very tough. One does not go up against a party of them with casual distain. They are why nobody, except Harchar, goes out into the great deeps...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 23, 2016, 12:57:46 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;880704
Chirine, my compliments to the commander of the Lightning Bringer cohort, and she may commence fire at her pleasure...


I wish. The one time we had to fight a nest ship, it was only my knowledge of hydrodynamics that saved us.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 23, 2016, 01:03:18 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;880853
Phil never had any formal guidelines for anything. If he liked it, and thought that it fitted in with his view of how the place worked, then it was 'in' and he'd use it. Over the time that I was his publisher, we got to know what he liked, and so we could screen things out that came in the door and were simply not going to fly with him.

Both your approaches are fine. He'd have liked this.


I'll get to work on that random table, then. Or should I say "that set of linked random tables"?
Either way, I'm having some progress, and we'll soon be up to the ears in demons of both pantheons!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on February 24, 2016, 06:30:50 PM
You know, a compendium of stability demons, or a more detailed work-up of Hluss variants are both things that would surely interest Tekumelophiles in general. I would encourage you each to work something up and share it with everyone, whether on a blog, or an upload to the Yahoo discussion group. I would understand of course if you wanted to keep such things a surprise for your gaming group, but if not, I know I would be interested to see what you come up with!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on February 24, 2016, 08:18:47 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;880858
I wish. The one time we had to fight a nest ship, it was only my knowledge of hydrodynamics that saved us.
Do Hluss float? And can they swim?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 25, 2016, 01:40:50 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;881169
You know, a compendium of stability demons, or a more detailed work-up of Hluss variants are both things that would surely interest Tekumelophiles in general. I would encourage you each to work something up and share it with everyone, whether on a blog, or an upload to the Yahoo discussion group. I would understand of course if you wanted to keep such things a surprise for your gaming group, but if not, I know I would be interested to see what you come up with!


Seconded!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 25, 2016, 01:44:16 AM
Quote from: Bren;881197
Do Hluss float? And can they swim?


Not that I ever saw; they are heavier then water, as near as I can tell.

Yes, sort of; they can do a kind of 'dog paddle' with their legs, and their heads and arms stay upright. It looks weird, and they don't seem to be able to keep it up for any length of time. Not that we were going to stay around and watch, as the local sea life had heard the dinner gong and were lining up at the buffet...

Exit Our Heroes, stage right.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 25, 2016, 02:40:03 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;881169
You know, a compendium of stability demons, or a more detailed work-up of Hluss variants are both things that would surely interest Tekumelophiles in general. I would encourage you each to work something up and share it with everyone, whether on a blog, or an upload to the Yahoo discussion group. I would understand of course if you wanted to keep such things a surprise for your gaming group, but if not, I know I would be interested to see what you come up with!


Quote from: chirine ba kal;881244
Seconded!!! :)


Thirded!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on February 25, 2016, 05:53:20 PM
Quote from: Bren;881197
Do Hluss float? And can they swim?


I would expect them to be able to float but holding their breath may be a challenge.
Depends if you think they can close their spiracles or not.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;881246
Not that I ever saw; they are heavier then water, as near as I can tell.


Sounds like no, they can't hold their breath.

I would expect people to take my idea and apply it how best fit their game not copy it whole cloth from mine.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 25, 2016, 07:08:37 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;881394
I would expect them to be able to float but holding their breath may be a challenge.
Depends if you think they can close their spiracles or not.



Sounds like no, they can't hold their breath.

I would expect people to take my idea and apply it how best fit their game not copy it whole cloth from mine.
=

 
I have heard tales of Hluss that glide along the top of water...But thank the Twenty, they are rare. From what I was told by some Nom sailors, they come from the other side of Bethorm...!!!

H:0)

PS You can think of them as man-sized Gerridae...not nice.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on February 25, 2016, 09:18:54 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;881394

I would expect people to take my idea and apply it how best fit their game not copy it whole cloth from mine.
=


Fair enough, I would expect (or hope?) the same. But still, I think it is a cool idea that not everybody may have thought of, and it is worth developing. And the more you develop it, the more there is for others to pick and choose from!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 26, 2016, 01:52:16 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;881394
I would expect them to be able to float but holding their breath may be a challenge.
Depends if you think they can close their spiracles or not.

Sounds like no, they can't hold their breath.

I would expect people to take my idea and apply it how best fit their game not copy it whole cloth from mine.
=


Well, I don't have any really definitive information, just observation; the only time we ever saw Hlyss in the water was when I sank the nest ship. Every other time we saw Hlyss, it was on land, and they were doing their best to try and kill us.

I don't know if they even have spiracles, like the Pe Choi do; we simply never got close enough to tell So, I kinda think that the topic would seem to be open to a definitive answer - requiring some pretty brave PCs, of course...

I agree with your point, too. All I can do is report what I saw, and people should feel free to take it and run with it.

And the notion of a bunch of young Hlyss in the neighborhood pool, in swimming class, send me into transports of delight... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 26, 2016, 01:56:42 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;881410
I have heard tales of Hluss that glide along the top of water...But thank the Twenty, they are rare. From what I was told by some Nom sailors, they come from the other side of Bethorm...!!!

H:0)

PS You can think of them as man-sized Gerridae...not nice.


Lovely, just lovely. I can see them doing this; both sorcery and devices would help reduce the weight factor to the point where they could use the surface tension.

I'm thinking big rocks, or Doomkills, here. Must talk to the Nom I know...

And remember that we never saw a full three-quarters of the planet's surface...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 26, 2016, 01:57:21 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;881426
Fair enough, I would expect (or hope?) the same. But still, I think it is a cool idea that not everybody may have thought of, and it is worth developing. And the more you develop it, the more there is for others to pick and choose from!


Agreed!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 26, 2016, 10:05:51 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;881246
Not that I ever saw; they are heavier then water, as near as I can tell.

Yes, sort of; they can do a kind of 'dog paddle' with their legs, and their heads and arms stay upright. It looks weird, and they don't seem to be able to keep it up for any length of time. Not that we were going to stay around and watch, as the local sea life had heard the dinner gong and were lining up at the buffet...

Exit Our Heroes, stage right.


"As we saw they Hlyss floundering around in the water we were going to finish them off, but Pity stayed our hands..."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on February 26, 2016, 02:33:22 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;881507
"As we saw they Hlyss floundering around in the water we were going to finish them off, but Pity stayed our hands..."

...pity Chirine had run out of spells.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 26, 2016, 08:39:26 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;881507
"As we saw they Hlyss floundering around in the water we were going to finish them off, but Pity stayed our hands..."


You were busy stabbing Pity hi Someone instead?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 27, 2016, 01:48:52 AM
Quote from: Bren;881570
...pity Chirine had run out of spells.


:)

Actually, the big Doomkill was the opener; I still had Energy Bolt, Hands of Kra the Mighty, and that delightful old standby Creeping Fog of Doom as the last resort when the bugs boarded us. We had no intention of being taken alive, and every intention of killing as many of them as we could. It was, as they say, time to put up or shut up. (If I'd blown us all up with the Doomkill, we'd still be ahead of the situation by being quite dead.)

The Doomkill was aimed not at the milling masses of warriors or their Lighting Bringer (mounted in the super-firing topside 'B' turret, firing over the port and starboard 'A' wing turrets - very 'pre-dreadnought', I thought) but rather at the bow of the ship - right at the stem curve. I figured that since the nest-ships are made of chitin, a good solid hit to the point of the bow curve might start a crack, and the ship's own speed in the water would do the rest.

It did, which is why I'm around to tell the tale.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 27, 2016, 01:56:48 AM
Of COURSE the hive ships are designed to pre-Dreadnaught standards.

As you are fond of saying, "It's much funnier that way." :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 27, 2016, 02:06:18 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;881671
:)

Actually, the big Doomkill was the opener; I still had Energy Bolt, Hands of Kra the Mighty, and that delightful old standby Creeping Fog of Doom as the last resort when the bugs boarded us. We had no intention of being taken alive, and every intention of killing as many of them as we could. It was, as they say, time to put up or shut up. (If I'd blown us all up with the Doomkill, we'd still be ahead of the situation by being quite dead.)

The Doomkill was aimed not at the milling masses of warriors or their Lighting Bringer (mounted in the super-firing topside 'B' turret, firing over the port and starboard 'A' wing turrets - very 'pre-dreadnought', I thought) but rather at the bow of the ship - right at the stem curve. I figured that since the nest-ships are made of chitin, a good solid hit to the point of the bow curve might start a crack, and the ship's own speed in the water would do the rest.

It did, which is why I'm around to tell the tale.


Uncle, would happen to have a model or deck plans for a hive-ship that we may see? Thank you

H:0)

PS Did we ask this already...? Seems like we might have.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 27, 2016, 11:34:03 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;881675
Uncle, would happen to have a model or deck plans for a hive-ship that we may see? Thank you

H:0)

PS Did we ask this already...? Seems like we might have.


Yes, we did...This thread is getting long...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 27, 2016, 09:25:22 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;881673
Of COURSE the hive ships are designed to pre-Dreadnaught standards.

As you are fond of saying, "It's much funnier that way." :D


True. When I was planning this game - the Dave Arneson Memorial one in 2010 - I wanted to re-stage this particular fight. I re-read Phil's description of the hive-ships, and they sounded like a domed base with a lot of nautical frou-frou stuck on. I instantly thought of Ken Fletcher, and his wonderful drawings, and I was off looking at pre-dreadnoughts for inspiration. Here's what they looked like in the pink foam...

(And the Lighting Bringer did work, by the way; I was very proud of that.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 27, 2016, 09:28:35 PM
Here's Marmaduke, the Hlyss expert, at the controls:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 27, 2016, 09:52:36 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;881847
True. When I was planning this game - the Dave Arneson Memorial one in 2010 - I wanted to re-stage this particular fight. I re-read Phil's description of the hive-ships, and they sounded like a domed base with a lot of nautical frou-frou stuck on. I instantly thought of Ken Fletcher, and his wonderful drawings, and I was off looking at pre-dreadnoughts for inspiration. Here's what they looked like in the pink foam...

(And the Lighting Bringer did work, by the way; I was very proud of that.)


Love it.  It has that "demented wedding cake" look that a lot of pre-Dreadnaught ships seem to have.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 27, 2016, 09:54:18 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;881675
Uncle, would happen to have a model or deck plans for a hive-ship that we may see? Thank you

H:0)

PS Did we ask this already...? Seems like we might have.


Yep; see attached. This is a big hunk of foam; the thing is about two foot by three foot, oval, and with lots of flat space for fighting - the real things are a little more domed, which makes them hard to stage fights on. So, we compromise. There are two main barbettes, forward to port and starboard of the main sally port, four small open turrets - a pair on either side - and another barbette aft. All of these have bolt-throwers, the larger ones in the larger barbettes. The super-firing barbette forward has the lighting bringer. The boarding ramp and hatches all work.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 27, 2016, 10:48:39 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;881854
Yep; see attached. This is a big hunk of foam; the thing is about two foot by three foot, oval, and with lots of flat space for fighting - the real things are a little more domed, which makes them hard to stage fights on. So, we compromise. There are two main barbettes, forward to port and starboard of the main sally port, four small open turrets - a pair on either side - and another barbette aft. All of these have bolt-throwers, the larger ones in the larger barbettes. The super-firing barbette forward has the lighting bringer. The boarding ramp and hatches all work.


Fantastic!!! I'm impressed. You never cease to amaze...You really make me want to try my hand at some modeling or maybe just some miniature painting. Very nice. Thank you for sharing.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 28, 2016, 02:06:31 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;881853
Love it.  It has that "demented wedding cake" look that a lot of pre-Dreadnaught ships seem to have.


Thank you! I had some of the French ships of the 1880s in mind, but I think it came out looking more like some of the British 'casemate' / 'citadel' ironclads with their barbettes. One of my favorite quotes from this period in naval architecture is from the captain of one of the French battleships, who when asked if he thought his ship was too top heavy, replied that it was, but it made his ship a very comfortable hotel. My big worry was having enough room for the Hlyss crew to mass on deck for the boarding action. (See attached, for the Hlyss.)

I put a sign under the ramp, visible only to the human players on the other ship, that said: "Hello, lunch!"

Just trying to be friendly, you know... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 28, 2016, 02:10:43 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;881863
Fantastic!!! I'm impressed. You never cease to amaze...You really make me want to try my hand at some modeling or maybe just some miniature painting. Very nice. Thank you for sharing.

H:0)


Thank you! You're very welcome!

Do try! It can be a lot of fun, and can inspire your games - or, your games can inspire you to do something! It works both ways, I've found... :)

I'm glad you find things like this amazing, too. I like to say that I'm a throwback to an earlier time in gaming, where we didn't take ourselves (or our games) really, really seriously - as the Arneson quote goes, "We made stuff up, and we had fun!" I'm still doing that, and still having fun in the process... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 01, 2016, 01:43:07 AM
Thought people might like to see this; saw Dave Wesely on Sunday, and he sold me the very first printed copy of this edition...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 01, 2016, 07:45:47 PM
Is there a problem with having the priest of an "opposing" religion officiate at a battlefield burial?

Would it have any effect on the dead or cause discontent among the living?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 02, 2016, 07:27:45 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;882669
Is there a problem with having the priest of an "opposing" religion officiate at a battlefield burial?

Would it have any effect on the dead or cause discontent among the living?
=


No, not really. One would prefer to have a cleric of one's own temple say a few nice words over the body, but one takes what one can get in situations like this. One usually tried to have a 'similar' cleric do the rites - a Thumis / Ksarul combination, or Vimuhla / Karakan, for example, but one is not choosy. It's always considered 'proper' to have somebody invoke the gods, and avoid being rolled into a nameless grave somewhere.

(Personal observation from my 25mm tall alter-ego: "Having rolled a lot of corpses or parts of corpses into nameless graves over the years, I have some experience with this kind of thing. Better any priest then no priest.")

Normally, the officiating cleric, on their return to civilization, visit the late lamented's family / clan and report that everything possible was done, and done in  decent and proper manner. The family / clan would give the cleric their thanks, and a nice thank-you gift. The cleric would then repair to the late lamented's temple, give them pretty much the same report, and make a donation to the temple for the proper rituals to be done by the 'correct' cleric. The temple normally also thanks the cleric, and also provides them with a nice thank-you gift.

The dead are honored and sent on their way to the Isles of Teretane, and everybody is reasonably satisfied. Things have been done properly, and the temples have been respected along with the dearly departed.

Not doing all this would, as you might expect, cause problems for both the living and the dead; adventures for PCs ensue.

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on March 03, 2016, 12:20:29 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;882922
No, not really. One would prefer to have a cleric of one's own temple say a few nice words over the body, but one takes what one can get in situations like this. One usually tried to have a 'similar' cleric do the rites - a Thumis / Ksarul combination, or Vimuhla / Karakan, for example, but one is not choosy. It's always considered 'proper' to have somebody invoke the gods, and avoid being rolled into a nameless grave somewhere.

(Personal observation from my 25mm tall alter-ego: "Having rolled a lot of corpses or parts of corpses into nameless graves over the years, I have some experience with this kind of thing. Better any priest then no priest.")

Normally, the officiating cleric, on their return to civilization, visit the late lamented's family / clan and report that everything possible was done, and done in  decent and proper manner. The family / clan would give the cleric their thanks, and a nice thank-you gift. The cleric would then repair to the late lamented's temple, give them pretty much the same report, and make a donation to the temple for the proper rituals to be done by the 'correct' cleric. The temple normally also thanks the cleric, and also provides them with a nice thank-you gift.

The dead are honored and sent on their way to the Isles of Teretane, and everybody is reasonably satisfied. Things have been done properly, and the temples have been respected along with the dearly departed.

Not doing all this would, as you might expect, cause problems for both the living and the dead; adventures for PCs ensue.

Does this help?


I love the fact that "adventures ensue" almost always!!!

Uncle, I have a question concerning The Book of Ebon Bindings. Do you have any background information concerning the illustration on pg 40. Is it indeed the true form of Lord Marassu, ruler of the Fourteenth Circle(I'm sure I just answered my own question)? I find it one of the more disturbing ones...

Also, did The Professor ever talk about writing TBoEB? As far as influences or inspiration in writing it goes? Thank you.

H:0)

PS That book stands alone. I can not think of one book that I own, that I can compare it to. Scary stuff. You would have to be a madman to want to envoke most of those beings.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 03, 2016, 01:14:40 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;882969
I love the fact that "adventures ensue" almost always!!!

Uncle, I have a question concerning The Book of Ebon Bindings. Do you have any background information concerning the illustration on pg 40. Is it indeed the true form of Lord Marassu, ruler of the Fourteenth Circle(I'm sure I just answered my own question)? I find it one of the more disturbing ones...

Also, did The Professor ever talk about writing TBoEB? As far as influences or inspiration in writing it goes? Thank you.

H:0)

PS That book stands alone. I can not think of one book that I own, that I can compare it to. Scary stuff. You would have to be a madman to want to envoke most of those beings.


Well, it's why it's there; there is no problem on Tekumel that cannot be solved by hiring enough PCs to go and deal with it. The nature of the thing is to inspire adventures; it's what we do...

Lord Marassu is actually pretty tame, when you look at that art in the context of Hindu temple art. The 'demons' of Tekumel are modelled on the Rakshasa, and Phil was happy to provide Craig Smith with lots of samples from his collection of Hindu art. And yes, that is the being's true form, at least as manifested on Tekumel's plane of existence.

Phil really enjoyed doing "Ebon Bindings"; at the time, the late 1970s, grimoires and books of magic were all the rage in RPG and other circles - this was the time when Avalon Hill did their "Black Magic" (Summon demons in your living room! Fun for the whole family!) and "Witchcraft" (I liked the pop-up cardboard coven included in the box)board games. Some of the people in the original gaming group brought some of this sort of thing over to Phil's, and he snorted a lot and rolled his eyes. (This kind of thing was one of the reasons for the great Satanic Panic, by the way.)

It turned out that he had a number of the real thing in his collection of Indo-Persian manuscripts (which are now in the library of a university in Malaysia), and he - fortified by multiple cups of strong Darjeeling tea (the real stuff, imported from India) - sat down and wrote "Ebon Bindings" and did all the glyphs for the book in proper 'grimoire style'. That's why it seems to real; Phil did his research. He even did a page from the Llyani edition, to add to the fun.

Some years later, when I was working at AGI, we heard that a LDS church had burned a copy of the book as part of their anti-D&D / anti-Satanic campaign; I wrote them a nice letter, telling them about the actual literary history of the work, and they wrote me back a very nice letter apologizing for burning it - "Whoops!" they said, "Sorry about that!"

Phil laughed until he cried, when I told him about it...

And yes, you'd have to be either nuts or Eyloa... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 03, 2016, 02:08:55 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;882975
Well, it's why it's there; there is no problem on Tekumel that cannot be solved by hiring enough PCs to go and deal with it. The nature of the thing is to inspire adventures; it's what we do...

(snipped)

And yes, you'd have to be either nuts or Eyloa... :)

Uncle, I admit to liking your story about the occult. But these two passages are a nice bonus...:)

And I wish more Referees understood the simple concept you express in that. "Hiring adventurers, or becoming one yourself, is a way to either get ahead, or to grease the wheels of social mechanisms when they've come to a halt." Once they do, they could just look at the setting and never be in a shortage of adventures;).

And now that the series of interlinked tables is done, I have to type it out:D.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 03, 2016, 02:29:11 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;882979
Uncle, I admit to liking your story about the occult. But these two passages are a nice bonus...:)

And I wish more Referees understood the simple concept you express in that. "Hiring adventurers, or becoming one yourself, is a way to either get ahead, or to grease the wheels of social mechanisms when they've come to a halt." Once they do, they could just look at the setting and never be in a shortage of adventures;).

And now that the series of interlinked tables is done, I have to type it out:D.


You're welcome! The world-setting should, in my opinion, provide many and diverse reasons for having 'adventures' - we're following in the footsteps of the Grey Mouser and his tall friend, or Flash Gordon. Phil's creation does that, and we had a lot of adventures with him in exploring his world.

Looking forward to seeing it, too! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on March 03, 2016, 08:14:15 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;882975
Well, it's why it's there; there is no problem on Tekumel that cannot be solved by hiring enough PCs to go and deal with it. The nature of the thing is to inspire adventures; it's what we do...

Lord Marassu is actually pretty tame, when you look at that art in the context of Hindu temple art. The 'demons' of Tekumel are modelled on the Rakshasa, and Phil was happy to provide Craig Smith with lots of samples from his collection of Hindu art. And yes, that is the being's true form, at least as manifested on Tekumel's plane of existence.

Phil really enjoyed doing "Ebon Bindings"; at the time, the late 1970s, grimoires and books of magic were all the rage in RPG and other circles - this was the time when Avalon Hill did their "Black Magic" (Summon demons in your living room! Fun for the whole family!) and "Witchcraft" (I liked the pop-up cardboard coven included in the box)board games. Some of the people in the original gaming group brought some of this sort of thing over to Phil's, and he snorted a lot and rolled his eyes. (This kind of thing was one of the reasons for the great Satanic Panic, by the way.)

It turned out that he had a number of the real thing in his collection of Indo-Persian manuscripts (which are now in the library of a university in Malaysia), and he - fortified by multiple cups of strong Darjeeling tea (the real stuff, imported from India) - sat down and wrote "Ebon Bindings" and did all the glyphs for the book in proper 'grimoire style'. That's why it seems to real; Phil did his research. He even did a page from the Llyani edition, to add to the fun.

Some years later, when I was working at AGI, we heard that a LDS church had burned a copy of the book as part of their anti-D&D / anti-Satanic campaign; I wrote them a nice letter, telling them about the actual literary history of the work, and they wrote me back a very nice letter apologizing for burning it - "Whoops!" they said, "Sorry about that!"

Phil laughed until he cried, when I told him about it...

And yes, you'd have to be either nuts or Eyloa... :)

 
Thank you. These stories never cease to amaze me. I have never seen "Black Magic" or "Witchcraft", but I have a feeling they are not as indepth as TBoEB. It really has so much in there(even about my namesake). I really loved reading about those arrogant wizards sealing their doom by envoking those beings. Even with all the precautions taken, "Adventures Ensue"...!!! Fantastic stuff.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on March 03, 2016, 08:17:58 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;882979
Uncle, I admit to liking your story about the occult. But these two passages are a nice bonus...:)

And I wish more Referees understood the simple concept you express in that. "Hiring adventurers, or becoming one yourself, is a way to either get ahead, or to grease the wheels of social mechanisms when they've come to a halt." Once they do, they could just look at the setting and never be in a shortage of adventures;).

And now that the series of interlinked tables is done, I have to type it out:D.


This is getting good!!! I was hoping to read something similar!!! I know I can't wait to check it out...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on March 03, 2016, 08:24:46 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;882984
You're welcome! The world-setting should, in my opinion, provide many and diverse reasons for having 'adventures' - we're following in the footsteps of the Grey Mouser and his tall friend, or Flash Gordon. Phil's creation does that, and we had a lot of adventures with him in exploring his world.

Looking forward to seeing it, too! :)


Here, Here!!! Funny as I was reading TSTPT, I found the antics very "Mouser"ish.
My kind of humor. Still waiting for more...

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 03, 2016, 08:57:54 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;882984
You're welcome! The world-setting should, in my opinion, provide many and diverse reasons for having 'adventures' - we're following in the footsteps of the Grey Mouser and his tall friend, or Flash Gordon. Phil's creation does that, and we had a lot of adventures with him in exploring his world.

Looking forward to seeing it, too! :)

I'm doing my best, Uncle. After tonight's night shift I should have the time to finish it:).

I'm looking at a set of 9-10 tables, though I've been considering to expand those in the 11-13 range (though I probably won't). Depends on whether you count table 0: roll 1d2, Stability or Change...that determines which tables you use after that:D!

Then again, the longest table so far has 36 entries (alternative methods: roll d100 or roll a d66), so table 0 isn't representative of the whole thing;)!

Quote from: Hrugga;883019
This is getting good!!! I was hoping to read something similar!!! I know I can't wait to check it out...

H:0)

To be honest, most of it is done, and all tables actually have at least two ways to roll on them, one of them being 1d100. I'm just slow to make the list of qualities I need for the first two tables - they all go in pairs.
Amusingly, because it/they are the ones you might actually decide to skip. There are at least two different ways to use the series of tables, maybe three...so it's a sandbox approach to which random table to roll on:p!

I'll try to finish it tomorrow after I sleep off the night shift;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 04, 2016, 01:44:38 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;883018
Thank you. These stories never cease to amaze me. I have never seen "Black Magic" or "Witchcraft", but I have a feeling they are not as indepth as TBoEB. It really has so much in there(even about my namesake). I really loved reading about those arrogant wizards sealing their doom by envoking those beings. Even with all the precautions taken, "Adventures Ensue"...!!! Fantastic stuff.

H:0)


You're welcome. We have a lot of history to draw on... :)

Neither of the two AH games have any depth at all. They were intended to cash in on the popular culture tropes of the time, and were roundly laughed at by anyone with any knowledge of the subject.

Yep, I agree with you - the book is a fascinating read on a number of different levels, and I think we had a number of adventures based in the incidents from the book; I don't know how many times we got sent off on 'side trips' to look into some obscure detail from the book...

"Oh? You do adventures? Great! I have this little problem..." and we'd be off looking for a copy of the book as some new Dire Peril ensued.

Adventures; that's what it was all about... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 04, 2016, 01:45:11 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;883019
This is getting good!!! I was hoping to read something similar!!! I know I can't wait to check it out...

H:0)


Same here! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 04, 2016, 01:47:53 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;883021
Here, Here!!! Funny as I was reading TSTPT, I found the antics very "Mouser"ish.
My kind of humor. Still waiting for more...

H;0)


Thank you for the kind words! I'm typing as fast as I can... :)

Yes, we generally had a fun time in Phil's Tekumel, even when he was sacring the kilts off of us. The antics were often more slapstick then farce, and more often farce then 'serious business'. We were heroes, in the romantic sense of the word, and did our best to survive and still laugh a bit in the process.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 04, 2016, 01:48:54 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;883026
I'm doing my best, Uncle. After tonight's night shift I should have the time to finish it:).

I'm looking at a set of 9-10 tables, though I've been considering to expand those in the 11-13 range (though I probably won't). Depends on whether you count table 0: roll 1d2, Stability or Change...that determines which tables you use after that:D!

Then again, the longest table so far has 36 entries (alternative methods: roll d100 or roll a d66), so table 0 isn't representative of the whole thing;)!


To be honest, most of it is done, and all tables actually have at least two ways to roll on them, one of them being 1d100. I'm just slow to make the list of qualities I need for the first two tables - they all go in pairs.
Amusingly, because it/they are the ones you might actually decide to skip. There are at least two different ways to use the series of tables, maybe three...so it's a sandbox approach to which random table to roll on:p!

I'll try to finish it tomorrow after I sleep off the night shift;).


Very, very cool! Really looking forward to this!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron Opal on March 04, 2016, 09:49:18 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;883187
Very, very cool! Really looking forward to this!!! :)


I am as well. My opportunities for loosing myself in gamesmithing are far too few these days. Things that save me time are eagerly anticipated and gratefully accepted from the community.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 04, 2016, 04:46:30 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;883187
Very, very cool! Really looking forward to this!!! :)


Quote from: Baron Opal;883262
I am as well. My opportunities for loosing myself in gamesmithing are far too few these days. Things that save me time are eagerly anticipated and gratefully accepted from the community.



I aim to help:)!

http://storiescharactersandsystemsinrpgs.blogspot.bg/2016/03/binding-books-for-tekumelcreate-your.html

Hope you have fun! And if you make a cool demon, you can post it in a spoilerblock here.

As you can note, the tables for Change and Stability are different. That is intentional.
Admittedly, I decided not to write a list of the qualities of the 20 gods, but there's always room for a part 2 of the post;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on March 05, 2016, 12:02:56 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;883332
I aim to help:)!

http://storiescharactersandsystemsinrpgs.blogspot.bg/2016/03/binding-books-for-tekumelcreate-your.html

Hope you have fun! And if you make a cool demon, you can post it in a spoilerblock here.

As you can note, the tables for Change and Stability are different. That is intentional.
Admittedly, I decided not to write a list of the qualities of the 20 gods, but there's always room for a part 2 of the post;).


Very cool. Thank you. Doing something like this takes more than you would think. I'm going to see what kind of Demon I come up with. I don't know how to do the spoiler block though. I'm at the science is magic level...Thanks again.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 05, 2016, 12:36:34 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;883424
Very cool. Thank you. Doing something like this takes more than you would think. I'm going to see what kind of Demon I come up with. I don't know how to do the spoiler block though. I'm at the science is magic level...Thanks again.

H:0)


It was a pleasure. Do you feel like I must add a list of qualities of the gods and goddesses, and maybe make some details tie back to those?

You do the spoiler thing by selecting the text you have written or part of it, and pressing the rightmost icon that looks like a sheet of paper on a plastic table.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on March 05, 2016, 02:36:41 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;883429
It was a pleasure. Do you feel like I must add a list of qualities of the gods and goddesses, and maybe make some details tie back to those?

You do the spoiler thing by selecting the text you have written or part of it, and pressing the rightmost icon that looks like a sheet of paper on a plastic table.


I didn't think there is a need. But when I attempt some demon creation,I will let you know.

You give a very good base. From there you can add what you want to suit your needs. For example, I mentioned the Demonic Powers pdf. You can make a table or pick what you want depending on how powerful you want your demon to be. Tweek as you mentioned as far as rituals go,etc. Good stuff.

Thanks,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 05, 2016, 06:34:27 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;883440
I didn't think there is a need. But when I attempt some demon creation,I will let you know.

You give a very good base. From there you can add what you want to suit your needs. For example, I mentioned the Demonic Powers pdf. You can make a table or pick what you want depending on how powerful you want your demon to be. Tweek as you mentioned as far as rituals go,etc. Good stuff.

Thanks,

H:0)


Yeah, I decided to leave the link with the Demonic Powers for the follow-up, if and when I decide to write it. My main goal was instead to get the themes of Change and Stability right.

Glad you like it, and I admit I might actually use Plant Girl in my next couple of sessions!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on March 05, 2016, 08:53:36 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;883332
I aim to help:)!

http://storiescharactersandsystemsinrpgs.blogspot.bg/2016/03/binding-books-for-tekumelcreate-your.html

Hope you have fun! And if you make a cool demon, you can post it in a spoilerblock here.

As you can note, the tables for Change and Stability are different. That is intentional.
Admittedly, I decided not to write a list of the qualities of the 20 gods, but there's always room for a part 2 of the post;).


This looks like fun! Thank you  for working it up!

Couple of other elements you could add are Substance/Essence (demons may be of the Substance of one deity but the Essence of another), and also a table of demonic powers, as previously discussed.

Lastly, never rule out the seemingly incongruous results! "Sarku" and "courtesan": might be an icky combination, but before ignoring it, give some thought to how it might possibly work. I find with random generators it is often the seemingly implausible combinations that give the most dramatic results...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on March 05, 2016, 09:15:05 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;883495
This looks like fun! Thank you  for working it up!

Couple of other elements you could add are Substance/Essence (demons may be of the Substance of one deity but the Essence of another), and also a table of demonic powers, as previously discussed.

Lastly, never rule out the seemingly incongruous results! "Sarku" and "courtesan": might be an icky combination, but before ignoring it, give some thought to how it might possibly work. I find with random generators it is often the seemingly implausible combinations that give the most dramatic results...

 
True. The unholy congresses in the bowels of the Temples of Sarku are the stuff of nightmares, or so I am told...

H:0)

PS It's been mentioned before, but here is a reminder...See, The Man of Gold for some of the more horrid rites of the Temple of Sarku(some of The Professor's best writing)...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on March 05, 2016, 09:39:15 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;883501
True. The unholy congresses in the bowels of the Temples of Sarku are the stuff of nightmares, or so I am told...


Yes, and perhaps such a demon is summoned to participate in such rituals.

Or perhaps her interests are rather different. Perhaps  she delights in recruiting for Lord Srykarum's Legions of the Despairing Dead. In her own special way.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 05, 2016, 09:43:27 PM
We had a player for a while out at Phil's who played a Sarku-worshipping courtesan. No idea why; she said that it sounded interesting to her, and we all left it at that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on March 05, 2016, 11:00:44 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;883505
Yes, and perhaps such a demon is summoned to participate in such rituals.

Or perhaps her interests are rather different. Perhaps  she delights in recruiting for Lord Srykarum's Legions of the Despairing Dead. In her own special way.


+1...Hopefully, she doesn't go to pieces...!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 06, 2016, 07:59:41 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;883495
This looks like fun! Thank you  for working it up!

You're welcome.

Quote
Couple of other elements you could add are Substance/Essence (demons may be of the Substance of one deity but the Essence of another), and also a table of demonic powers, as previously discussed.

Yes, they could, but I'm afraid that would be repeating table 1:). I mean, the list of gods and goddesses hasn't changed if you roll on it twice for Substance and for Essence.
I'll make sure to mention the possibility in the follow-up, though.

Quote
Lastly, never rule out the seemingly incongruous results! "Sarku" and "courtesan": might be an icky combination, but before ignoring it, give some thought to how it might possibly work. I find with random generators it is often the seemingly implausible combinations that give the most dramatic results...

Agreed on random generators. But "Sarku" and "courtesan" isn't incongruous - it's more of a "no way any of my players is going to summon that, and I don't see how their paths might intersect". It's useless (to me and my group), and I needed an example for "keep mostly in theme".

Other than that? In Exalted's setting, there are undead courtesans in the West. They're not even demons, just undead bound to the real menace. I know the option exists, I've just never seen it as even remotely useful.
Of course, you might use them as bait for priests of Sarku that you want to lure, but that's about it;).

Quote from: Hrugga;883501
True. The unholy congresses in the bowels of the Temples of Sarku are the stuff of nightmares, or so I am told...

H:0)

PS It's been mentioned before, but here is a reminder...See, The Man of Gold for some of the more horrid rites of the Temple of Sarku(some of The Professor's best writing)...

I'm waiting for Man of Gold to be released in PDF, as always;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;883506
We had a player for a while out at Phil's who played a Sarku-worshipping courtesan. No idea why; she said that it sounded interesting to her, and we all left it at that.

I'm sure the character was popular at parties:p! It's basically a requirement.
Then again, I also guess she was mostly invited at the kind of parties my PCs wouldn't care to attend, unless it was to off someone. With so many priests of Sarku around, you could pass it off as "natural causes":D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 07, 2016, 04:06:16 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;882975


And yes, you'd have to be either nuts or Eyloa... :)


Why not both? :D

Also, I'd forgotten about the Avalon Hill Black Magic Kit.  Crom's hairy nutsack.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 08, 2016, 02:01:23 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;883883
Why not both? :D

Also, I'd forgotten about the Avalon Hill Black Magic Kit.  Crom's hairy nutsack.


True; with him, there was a difference? :rolleyes: Sheesh!!!

What?!? How could you forget the demon cards, and the fold up portable magic circle, and the offering counters, and the d6 for demonic reactions to being summoned? Fun for the whole family!

Or the other kit / game, with the fold-up cardboard coven - with what looked like the guy from Shipping, and one of the office secretaries in her nightie - and the cardboard dagger, and the cardboard chalice, and all the rest of what an aspiring - but cheap - spell-caster might need...

:)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 09, 2016, 05:47:18 PM
The rules say that Qol run away unless they outnumber their opponents.
Is this still true even when trapped? If they had nowhere to run would they fight back as hard as possible or just surrender?  
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 09, 2016, 06:54:16 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;884243
The rules say that Qol run away unless they outnumber their opponents.
Is this still true even when trapped? If they had nowhere to run would they fight back as hard as possible or just surrender?  
=


Wouldn'tthat depend simply on whether they expect to be executed if they surrender?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 10, 2016, 02:06:13 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;884243
The rules say that Qol run away unless they outnumber their opponents.
Is this still true even when trapped? If they had nowhere to run would they fight back as hard as possible or just surrender?  
=


I'm sorry; which set of rules? RPG or miniatures? As I recall, in our encounters with them, they tended to not want to engage us unless they had a distinct advantage in either sheer numbers of warriors or in magic-users - or both. Dry-gulching player-characters was one thing that they did very well, and they also have some pretty good / nasty magic-users. My guess is, since they are artificial life-forms made by those wonderful people in the Temple of Ksarul, they had had their sorcerous abilities enhanced by the Temple.

(Oh, gee whiz, Phil, thank you for that... :rolleyes: )

Not that we blamed them; we were just as careful to make sure that we were either better, or had more numbers, or had more high-powered weaponry then the people or creatures that we were encountering; we ran for it quite a lot, as the Jakalla Underworld is pretty deadly in spots.

As for them fighting to the end if they got trapped somehow, yes, it happened all the time. Which was why we kind of tried to leave them - or anything else, for that matter, an escape route. Better a fleeing enemy then one that would fight to the death and do some real damage to us. I'll be right up front about it; we were really risk-averse in the Underworlds. We didn't have a lot of 'revivify' spells handy, and we had a lot invested on our PCs.

Sorry to be so long-winded; was this any help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 10, 2016, 02:12:03 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;884246
Wouldn'tthat depend simply on whether they expect to be executed if they surrender?


Hmmm. Possibly. Normally, in the Underworlds, the Great Concordat doesn't apply, so it gets a little rough when there's a fight. Qol are not Undead, so they tended to be a lot smarter then the usual foes and guardians we faced, and tended to either attack us if they thought that they had the advantage - by a pretty good margin, usually - or they'd avoid us like the proverbial plague.

We normally destroyed any Undead we encountered, but the couple times we managed to actually capture a few Qol we ransomed them back to their masters in the Temple of Ksarul.

Heroic last stands are also historically very popular in Tekumel's cultures; see also "Deeds of the Ever-Glorious" for this kind of thing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 10, 2016, 10:08:42 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;884315


As for them fighting to the end if they got trapped somehow, yes, it happened all the time. Which was why we kind of tried to leave them - or anything else, for that matter, an escape route. Better a fleeing enemy then one that would fight to the death and do some real damage to us.


Ah, Sun Tzu, my old master.  :D

Take Chirine's advice, kids; always, ALWAYS leave your enemy an escape route unless you've got at least 4:1 odds in your favor and have an overwhelming need for those buggers to be well and truly dead.  "Death Ground" is so named for a reason.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 10, 2016, 01:57:15 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;884315
I'm sorry; which set of rules? RPG or miniatures?

The TSR Empire of the Petal Throne.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;884315
Sorry to be so long-winded; was this any help?

That was very helpful.
I'd like to stick to "the conventions" when I can and wanted a feel for the mess they may be getting themselves into.

I my case, Hlyss predation has likely left them in a bad mood as well.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 10, 2016, 02:13:55 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;884340
Ah, Sun Tzu, my old master.  :D

Take Chirine's advice, kids; always, ALWAYS leave your enemy an escape route unless you've got at least 4:1 odds in your favor and have an overwhelming need for those buggers to be well and truly dead.  "Death Ground" is so named for a reason.


I prefer the Griffiths translation, myself. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 10, 2016, 02:17:00 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;884377
The TSR Empire of the Petal Throne.

That was very helpful.
I'd like to stick to "the conventions" when I can and wanted a feel for the mess they may be getting themselves into.

I my case, Hlyss predation has likely left them in a bad mood as well.
=


Right; gotcha. There have been so many rules sets, over the years...

Well, all I can do is say that "Phil did it this way" and "in the period 1976 - 1988" because that's what I saw. I still do it the same way, simply because I don;t know anything else; in effect, I am trapped in time and place.

Oh, my; that's a combination, for you...:eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 10, 2016, 04:09:41 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;884316

Heroic last stands are also historically very popular in Tekumel's cultures; see also "Deeds of the Ever-Glorious" for this kind of thing.

Sometimes, they even work;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;884340
Ah, Sun Tzu, my old master.  :D

Take Chirine's advice, kids; always, ALWAYS leave your enemy an escape route unless you've got at least 4:1 odds in your favor and have an overwhelming need for those buggers to be well and truly dead.  "Death Ground" is so named for a reason.

It's probably no surprise that my favourite chapter is number 13, I guess:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;884381
I prefer the Griffiths translation, myself. :)

I don't know the name of the translator offhand, but I can tell you that the big green edition which includes Wu Tzu's treaty as well is probably the best one you could find in Bulgarian:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 10, 2016, 10:07:54 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;884381
I prefer the Griffiths translation, myself. :)


Me too.

... wait, you're the one who lent me that translation.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 10, 2016, 10:09:06 PM
And a brief digression...

Keep your eyeballs peeled for Jim Ward's "World War Tesla," coming soon.

What's not to like about gigantic WWI style tanks with huge electrofrandibulizers bolted to the top?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 11, 2016, 01:54:59 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;884402
Sometimes, they even work;).

It's probably no surprise that my favourite chapter is number 13, I guess:).

I don't know the name of the translator offhand, but I can tell you that the big green edition which includes Wu Tzu's treaty as well is probably the best one you could find in Bulgarian:D!


Yep; see us at the Storming of Castle Tilketl, or the Mighty Molkar's Last Stand. The Baron paid in blood for every one of these wretched mud bricks.

Agreed! :)

Samuel B. Griffiths, as I recall; U. S. Marine Corp officer, and decorated combat veteran. His translation has a soldier's viewpoint, and is very interesting.

I shall look and see... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 11, 2016, 01:56:09 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;884450
Me too.

... wait, you're the one who lent me that translation.


< chortles > :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 11, 2016, 01:59:19 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;884451
And a brief digression...

Keep your eyeballs peeled for Jim Ward's "World War Tesla," coming soon.

What's not to like about gigantic WWI style tanks with huge electrofrandibulizers bolted to the top?


Oh? Well, both Little Willie and Mother have enough room inside for the working bits of the Tesla coils, and the top deck will easily support the cone for the coil windings. If you don't mind the little tanks trailing power cables - this was actually proposed in WWI for electrically powered tanks, by the way - we'll have a fun little game.

Mind how you pick up the models, though... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 11, 2016, 10:17:36 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;884484
Oh? Well, both Little Willie and Mother have enough room inside for the working bits of the Tesla coils, and the top deck will easily support the cone for the coil windings. If you don't mind the little tanks trailing power cables - this was actually proposed in WWI for electrically powered tanks, by the way - we'll have a fun little game.

Mind how you pick up the models, though... :)


Chirine's pikes have real points and his halberds have real blades.  So his World War Tesla tanks will have real high voltage cables.

You have been officially warned. :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 11, 2016, 02:19:39 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;884550
Chirine's pikes have real points and his halberds have real blades.  So his World War Tesla tanks will have real high voltage cables.

You have been officially warned. :D


It's part of what we'll diplomatically call my "loss prevention policy". Over the years, I have been astounded by the number of people who pick up my figures in clumps, and handle them like they were lumps of gravel. This habit is, quite frankly, why I don't jump up and down with unbridled glee at the notion of running games at the FLGS or similar venues...

And the First of the First - the First Legion of the First Palace, Victorious in Vimuhla - looks pretty damn impressive when all fifty figures are on the table in their phalanx of pikes. (They've also never, ever, failed a morale check on the table, either. Think about that, for a moment.)

In any case:

http://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=537 (http://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=537)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron Opal on March 11, 2016, 03:26:08 PM
Wow, those are long; pikes indeed.

Any commentary on a place to get miniature armies on the cheap? I'm mostly looking for your generic spearmen, sword and shield, cavalry, &c.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 11, 2016, 06:45:52 PM
40,000+
A lot of excellent information in this thread.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 11, 2016, 11:36:50 PM
Quote from: Baron Opal;884592
Wow, those are long; pikes indeed.

Any commentary on a place to get miniature armies on the cheap? I'm mostly looking for your generic spearmen, sword and shield, cavalry, &c.


Define "cheap."  Older generation D&D figures can be cheap at some dealers, and in the mid 2000s I was able to get "common" Star Wars figures at about a buck apiece.

But you're going to have to be prepared to sink a few hundred dollars if you want more than a couple of handsful of figures.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 11, 2016, 11:41:32 PM
As Chirine and I were discussing among ourselves, miniatures are both an expense and a logistical problem if you want to travel with them.  Be prepared.  "Come run a game at a convention" sounds easy until you're the one humping the boxes of lead across the parking ramp, up the stairs, over to the freight elevator, up to the fourth floor, across the exhibit hall, and over to the table.

And repeat in reverse on Sunday evening.

It's one reason I'm grateful to Paul Stormberg at GaryCon; I can run a CHAINMAIL historical battle using a sand table and 40mm Elastolin figures, and all I have to do is drag my sorry carcass to the room.  And thanks to him I've been able to start playing TRACTICS, "Don't Give Up The Ship," and "Fight in the Skies" again.

And this year I played "Cavaliers and Roundheads" for the first time, with none other than Jeff Perren as referee.

NOW I know why Chirine is so enthused about that period!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 12, 2016, 12:36:54 AM
Quote from: Baron Opal;884592
Wow, those are long; pikes indeed.

Any commentary on a place to get miniature armies on the cheap? I'm mostly looking for your generic spearmen, sword and shield, cavalry, &c.


They are indeed, but they look great on the table; Craig Smith did a cover illustration for one of the army lists that has the soldiers at one end, and the entire rest of the width of the cover is nothing but pikes. That's the look that I wanted.

Um. Well, here's my thoughts on the subject.

At present, your best bet is the re-issued Ral Parthe line; they are bringing back the Tom Meier (and others) sculpts, and for a pretty reasonable price.

http://www.ralpartha.com/ (http://www.ralpartha.com/)

They are also going back into the molds and finding all the figures that were sculpted but never released, so there's some very familiar figures and some totally new ones there. Best value for money, in my opinion, just like they were back in 1978.

My other suggestion for less expensive miniatures would be Old Glory. These are not always the finest of sculpts, but quite a few of them do have what I call 'charm'. I have a lot of them, and I enjoyed painting them up, as these are "painters' figures" where you make all the difference in how they look. Not for the beginner, maybe - the Ral Partha figures are easler to paint because they do have better detail - but as an inexpensive way to get some troops on the table this is a good line. And they do have a lot of stuff - have a look, and see what you need.

Moving away from metal to plastics, there are a lot of companies out there doing sets of historical figures that can be repurposed. Quite a lot of these are reasonably priced, and you do get quite a  few figures in the packages. I've done more then a few, myself, and I'm generally pretty pleased with the sets I've gotten.

There is a downside; lot of little fiddly parts, and the assembly time can be very long. Look before you buy, if I may make that observation.

Having said all that, I usually use the less-expensive figures for the large units, and the more expensive ones for the personality figures that command them. Photos on my Photobucket page, of all this... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 12, 2016, 12:39:36 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;884656
Define "cheap."  Older generation D&D figures can be cheap at some dealers, and in the mid 2000s I was able to get "common" Star Wars figures at about a buck apiece.

But you're going to have to be prepared to sink a few hundred dollars if you want more than a couple of handsful of figures.


Agreed. It all depends on what you want, what you like, and what you play. I am very much a specialist - and have been so since the middle 1980s.

Play miniatures with somebody else's figures, for a while, I tell people, and then make a decision as to what you want to do. And then stick with it. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on March 12, 2016, 12:43:48 AM
Pike and Shotte battles are a lot of fun.

Cheap miniatures aren't too hard to come by these days.  Wargames Factory has ceased distribution and while Warlord and Dreamforge Games both carry them, the prices aren't as insanely good as they had been.  They had republican Romans, Celts, Germanic Tribes, Numedians, Saxons, Vikings, Hopolites, Amazons, Orcs, Skeletons, War of Spanish Succession, Post Apocalyptic Survivors and Zombies, and futuristic Shock Troopers.  I've got a fair bit of stock on the shelf that I purchased when the Canadian Dollar was stronger, so that's one possible source anyhow.

Mantic Games Horde units of zombies, skeletons, orcs, goblins, and men at arms come in at about a dollar a figure.

Beyond that it gets hard to find three dollar metal figures, though the late nineties Fantasy Armies from Ral Partha can be had from Iron Wind Metals at reasonably cheaply.

Old Glory has cheap metal historical figures but they're packaged in bags of thirty with the same gear for mass wargaming purposes.

RAFM has decently priced metal stuff though their range is mostly pretty old but they're worth a look for a variety of things including the original Citadel Traveller 15mm figures.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 12, 2016, 12:46:52 AM
If you're into 20mm historicals, you have a lot of choices.  I'm given to understand they've solved the Airfix "unpaintable" problem.  Plus, of course, in this age of R/C cars, flexible paint for model bumpers is readily available.

http://www.hobbylinc.com/italeri-teutonic-knights-xii-xiii-century-plastic-model-military-figure-kit-1:72-scale-556019?source=froogle&gclid=CLfu7_O4ussCFdg6gQodabMFXA
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 12, 2016, 12:54:51 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;884660
As Chirine and I were discussing among ourselves, miniatures are both an expense and a logistical problem if you want to travel with them.  Be prepared.  "Come run a game at a convention" sounds easy until you're the one humping the boxes of lead across the parking ramp, up the stairs, over to the freight elevator, up to the fourth floor, across the exhibit hall, and over to the table.

And repeat in reverse on Sunday evening.

It's one reason I'm grateful to Paul Stormberg at GaryCon; I can run a CHAINMAIL historical battle using a sand table and 40mm Elastolin figures, and all I have to do is drag my sorry carcass to the room.  And thanks to him I've been able to start playing TRACTICS, "Don't Give Up The Ship," and "Fight in the Skies" again.

And this year I played "Cavaliers and Roundheads" for the first time, with none other than Jeff Perren as referee.

NOW I know why Chirine is so enthused about that period!


I could not agree more with this. It's not the painting of the figures that's the pain, it's the logistics of running a big game like the ones you see on my Photobucket page. Most of those games are about 30 cubic feet of scenery and figures; my van holds 64 cubic feet, so it's a challenge to pack everything up to go to an event. And then it's the drive to the venue, and then the set-show-strike sequence for the duration; it's why I insist on being given a table or space entirely for the event.

The nasty, nasty part of this are any moves around the venue because the event organizers have no idea what it takes to run the games that they want one to. I've had event organizers schedule me to run big games on different tables on opposite sides of the exhibit hall every four hours, with no time allowed for tear-down and set-up, let alone the time it takes to move across the hall. And I keep a fleet of carts for this - which, in turn, take up more shipping space and have to be kept chained up; they do tend to get 'borrowed' by people.

So, I have a pretty strict policy in place about this; if somebody wants to have me at their event to run games, I'll be happy to do it - but we work by my conditions. I've lost count of the number of times where I was promised the sun, the moon, and the stars (help unloading, meals brought to me, etc.) by event organizers, and it always seems to be me and one or two close friends doing all the work at two in the morning.

I feel sorry for Paul - I keep thinking of those eight buckets, with the forty gallons of wet sand that he has to haul.

Muskets, pikes, and flouncy shirts - gadzooks, prithee, what's not to like? It's why I did my Tangier Garrison campaign - Charles II and his son vs. the Sultan of Morocco, of all things...

(Truth really is stranger then fiction. Look it up.)

And off to pills and bed; I'm nursing a nasty sinus infection, at the moment. had it ever since the brain surgery, and occasionally it gets to be more then an annoyance... :(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 12, 2016, 12:56:57 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;884676
Pike and Shotte battles are a lot of fun.

Cheap miniatures aren't too hard to come by these days.  Wargames Factory has ceased distribution and while Warlord and Dreamforge Games both carry them, the prices aren't as insanely good as they had been.  They had republican Romans, Celts, Germanic Tribes, Numedians, Saxons, Vikings, Hopolites, Amazons, Orcs, Skeletons, War of Spanish Succession, Post Apocalyptic Survivors and Zombies, and futuristic Shock Troopers.  I've got a fair bit of stock on the shelf that I purchased when the Canadian Dollar was stronger, so that's one possible source anyhow.

Mantic Games Horde units of zombies, skeletons, orcs, goblins, and men at arms come in at about a dollar a figure.

Beyond that it gets hard to find three dollar metal figures, though the late nineties Fantasy Armies from Ral Partha can be had from Iron Wind Metals at reasonably cheaply.

Old Glory has cheap metal historical figures but they're packaged in bags of thirty with the same gear for mass wargaming purposes.

RAFM has decently priced metal stuff though their range is mostly pretty old but they're worth a look for a variety of things including the original Citadel Traveller 15mm figures.


Agreed; all very true, and you make a lot of sense. I didn't know that the Wargames Factory figures are out of distribution; that's a pain.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 12, 2016, 12:59:36 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;884679
If you're into 20mm historicals, you have a lot of choices.  I'm given to understand they've solved the Airfix "unpaintable" problem.  Plus, of course, in this age of R/C cars, flexible paint for model bumpers is readily available.

http://www.hobbylinc.com/italeri-teutonic-knights-xii-xiii-century-plastic-model-military-figure-kit-1:72-scale-556019?source=froogle&gclid=CLfu7_O4ussCFdg6gQodabMFXA


Yep. the old polyethylene that Airfix used has been superseded by a much more rigid plastic, and it holds acrylics much better then the older enamels we had to use.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on March 12, 2016, 01:04:43 AM
You can basecoat airfix bendy plastic with Krylon for Plastic and paint it reasonably well these days.  People always think that washing off the mould release agent helps but my Dad's a chemical engineer and he explained the problem to me years ago.  Poly Ethelene plastic has just about the same surface energy (I think that was it) as Teflon.  In essence the figures are made of no stick coating.  Krylon for Plastic actually chemically bonds with the figure.  Don't use it on Reaper Bones though, they're vinyl and it never quite sets up properly.

Fortunately Vinyl takes paint pretty well, though Reaper's range is big, over the top and a bit silly.  They are a great source for monster miniatures and the prices make me feel young again.  You can bend vinyl and some resin figures back into shape by immersing them in hot water until they soften up a little, making the bend and plunging them into cold water.

One other good source of dirt cheap plastic figures is EM-4 who have the old Grenadier Fantasy Warriors (yeah I know "old" new fangled European style figures) Dwarves and Orcs at around $0.50 a piece.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 12, 2016, 01:07:14 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;884687
You can basecoat airfix bendy plastic with Krylon for Plastic and paint it reasonably well these days.  People always think that washing off the mould release agent helps but my Dad's a chemical engineer and he explained the problem to me years ago.  Poly Ethelene plastic has just about the same surface energy (I think that was it) as Teflon.  In essence the figures are made of no stick coating.  Krylon for Plastic actually chemically bonds with the figure.  Don't use it on Reaper Bones though, they're vinyl and it never quite sets up properly.

Fortunately Vinyl takes paint pretty well, though Reaper's range is big, over the top and a bit silly.  They are a great source for monster miniatures and the prices make me feel young again.


Good points!!! Thank you!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 12, 2016, 01:07:26 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;884682


So, I have a pretty strict policy in place about this; if somebody wants to have me at their event to run games, I'll be happy to do it - but we work by my conditions. I've lost count of the number of times where I was promised the sun, the moon, and the stars (help unloading, meals brought to me, etc.) by event organizers, and it always seems to be me and one or two close friends doing all the work at two in the morning.


One reason at last GaryCon I made sure you at least got a chicken sandwich before the EPT game.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;884682
I feel sorry for Paul - I keep thinking of those eight buckets, with the forty gallons of wet sand that he has to haul.


Terry Kuntz got a little overenthusiastic with wetting down the sand... we very nearly had actual quicksand on the table.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;884682
Muskets, pikes, and flouncy shirts - gadzooks, prithee, what's not to like? It's why I did my Tangier Garrison campaign - Charles II and his son vs. the Sultan of Morocco, of all things...

(Truth really is stranger then fiction. Look it up.)


A lesson you taught us many, many times over the years...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;884682
And off to pills and bed; I'm nursing a nasty sinus infection, at the moment. had it ever since the brain surgery, and occasionally it gets to be more then an annoyance... :(


Very, very sorry to hear that.  I hope you can get some rest.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on March 12, 2016, 01:10:41 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;884683
Agreed; all very true, and you make a lot of sense. I didn't know that the Wargames Factory figures are out of distribution; that's a pain.


At present Warlord has the American War of Independence Line and is bringing out a game with the Zombies and Survivors including a new Biker Gang set and American Special Forces.  Other sets will be returning if they don't conflict with Warlord's existing ranges.

For which reason, Dream Forge Games has the World War 2 sets and the Shock Troopers.  Though, as far as I can tell, neither company plans to release anything at lower prices than their regular ranges.

I suspect a big part of Wargames Factory's problems stemmed from under pricing their figures.  For the first few sets, which were quite crude it made sense but once they hit their stride, I think the low low prices business model just didn't make enough money.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 12, 2016, 01:51:11 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;884618
40,000+
A lot of excellent information in this thread.
=


I'm sorry, I missed this last night. Thank you for pointing it out! :)

Wow. You'd think I had something interesting to say, wouldn't you? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 12, 2016, 01:58:23 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;884689
One reason at last GaryCon I made sure you at least got a chicken sandwich before the EPT game.

Terry Kuntz got a little overenthusiastic with wetting down the sand... we very nearly had actual quicksand on the table.

A lesson you taught us many, many times over the years...

Very, very sorry to hear that.  I hope you can get some rest.


And thank you again for that! Remember how many times we'd have to demand meal breaks? This is why I needed the staffing for what had been planned for this year, and why I had to cancel it all when people dropped out. I simply can't do it all by myself, and people seem to have a problem with that concept.

Oh; dear - and there's no good way to get the water back out, either!!! :eek:

That's the cool thing about these modern days - no having to look in books, you just ask Google... :)

Thank you. It's the right orbital sinus, and the pressure builds up so that the eye starts to lose function. It showed up after the brain bleed, and they're not sure what the problem is - no response to the usual antibiotics. I just have to go to bed and stay down for couple of days. The annoying thing is what with the current set of meds I'm on, all the usual pain killers are right out as well. It gets old.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 12, 2016, 02:03:03 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;884691
At present Warlord has the American War of Independence Line and is bringing out a game with the Zombies and Survivors including a new Biker Gang set and American Special Forces.  Other sets will be returning if they don't conflict with Warlord's existing ranges.

For which reason, Dream Forge Games has the World War 2 sets and the Shock Troopers.  Though, as far as I can tell, neither company plans to release anything at lower prices than their regular ranges.

I suspect a big part of Wargames Factory's problems stemmed from under pricing their figures.  For the first few sets, which were quite crude it made sense but once they hit their stride, I think the low low prices business model just didn't make enough money.


Good points; I think you are probably right. Dave Arneson did the same thing at Adventure Games; when we shipped product to, say, Balboa Distributing, we were taking a $1.22 loss on all of the items with a retail price of $4.95. What he was doing was having us cost out products as if they were going to have a 5,000 copy print run, and then only print 250 to 500 of anything. No economy of scale, there. Never did understand the logic, really.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 12, 2016, 03:18:13 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;884788


Thank you. It's the right orbital sinus, and the pressure builds up so that the eye starts to lose function. It showed up after the brain bleed, and they're not sure what the problem is - no response to the usual antibiotics. I just have to go to bed and stay down for couple of days. The annoying thing is what with the current set of meds I'm on, all the usual pain killers are right out as well. It gets old.


Sigh.  Sorry to hear that.  This "getting older" shit ain't for sissies.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 12, 2016, 03:19:09 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;884789
Good points; I think you are probably right. Dave Arneson did the same thing at Adventure Games; when we shipped product to, say, Balboa Distributing, we were taking a $1.22 loss on all of the items with a retail price of $4.95. What he was doing was having us cost out products as if they were going to have a 5,000 copy print run, and then only print 250 to 500 of anything. No economy of scale, there. Never did understand the logic, really.


I loved Dave dearly, and I miss him extremely, but on some subjects I never DID figure out what was going on in that little punkin haid of his.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on March 13, 2016, 12:11:15 AM
I've got a competitor who figures on losing money until everyone else goes under and then jacking up his prices.  It's probably something like that.  Well, it's 3 years in and I'm still standing :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 13, 2016, 01:05:20 AM
As they beat into us at the U of MN graduate school of business, "The only time you compete on price is if you're selling a commodity."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on March 13, 2016, 01:52:26 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;884892
As they beat into us at the U of MN graduate school of business, "The only time you compete on price is if you're selling a commodity."


If I've learned anything in the last four years it's that I know nothing about business and have no business trying to run one.  Even so, I keep trying to make a go of it.  I'm ridiculously obstinate and opinionated and I hate admitting I was wrong about things.  I never can accept the way things rather than the way I think they should be.  Even so, I think I'm building following.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 15, 2016, 02:18:04 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;884799
Sigh.  Sorry to hear that.  This "getting older" shit ain't for sissies.


Thanks for the kind words - I'm better today, after gallons of juice and several days of enforced rest. The medics say less stress, more sleep, and get my sorry ass back to writing. (Got another 1,000 words done, in little slices, so I'm happy.) The sinus drained late Sunday,with a noise like a clogged toilet finally flushing, and the fever broke. So, I'm back in the saddle... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 15, 2016, 02:20:20 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;884800
I loved Dave dearly, and I miss him extremely, but on some subjects I never DID figure out what was going on in that little punkin haid of his.


Agreed. I lost count of the number of times we'd be sitting around the office or in the bar after a day at a convention, asking the same question.

Sigh. I do miss him, despite having gone on too many 'little trips around the harbor' with Harchar...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 15, 2016, 02:24:08 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;884883
I've got a competitor who figures on losing money until everyone else goes under and then jacking up his prices.  It's probably something like that.  Well, it's 3 years in and I'm still standing :D


I don't think it was, actually. I think he thought that they'd make their money back when something took off, and they'd print the actual 5,000 copies. Most of the time, it felt like we were doing prototypes in order to have something for the photos of the trade show booth.

And that's another story, Dave was very proud of it, and it did get him awards at HIAA, but the costs... :eek:

(I did salvage the track lights, though. They are now in service in the game room, illuminating the game table.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 15, 2016, 02:26:01 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;884896
If I've learned anything in the last four years it's that I know nothing about business and have no business trying to run one.  Even so, I keep trying to make a go of it.  I'm ridiculously obstinate and opinionated and I hate admitting I was wrong about things.  I never can accept the way things rather than the way I think they should be.  Even so, I think I'm building following.


And that's more important then anything else, in the retail reputation game. I don't spend my money at retailers who don't take the time to say hello when I walk in the store.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on March 16, 2016, 08:54:46 AM
Magic question- All of the races that use magic use the same spells as the humans. Is this a matter of simple expedience (not wanting to make spell lists for everyone of them)? Or was it matter of "this spell they're casting is kind of-sort of-a little like Doomkill so that is what we will use"? Or is it that all magic works pretty much the same for everybody?

Or are there any spells that humans (or Pavar pantheon humans) don't have? Some Ssu magics that are dark and strange and reek of cinnamon?

Also, who was Kra and why was his hand so mighty?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 16, 2016, 12:51:53 PM
I hate to hear about your health issues, Uncle! Glad you're better now:)!

And the above is an interesting question;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 16, 2016, 02:19:04 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;885402
Magic question- All of the races that use magic use the same spells as the humans. Is this a matter of simple expedience (not wanting to make spell lists for everyone of them)? Or was it matter of "this spell they're casting is kind of-sort of-a little like Doomkill so that is what we will use"? Or is it that all magic works pretty much the same for everybody?

Or are there any spells that humans (or Pavar pantheon humans) don't have? Some Ssu magics that are dark and strange and reek of cinnamon?

Also, who was Kra and why was his hand so mighty?


Great questions!

Yes, to all three. S&G is over 1,000 pages of rules in manuscript; doing separate spell lists for all the various races would have pushed it to over 2,000 pages. And yes, since the vast majority of spells do the same things no matter who the caster might be, Phil just didn't go there. Remember that our 'magic' is simply technology with different 'hardware'; the reason why 'Buran' looks like 'Endeavor' is that they are built to do the same things.

We didn't see any 'special' spells in game with Phil, but he'd have done them as SNS items if he'd needed to.

Kra the Mighty was one of the heroes of the Latter Times, like my namesake Chirene the Dragon-headed, Warrior of Nlyss. He was one of the people who founded the 'magic' arts, harnessing the technological powers of the time in a way that didn't require devices.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 16, 2016, 02:19:56 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;885439
I hate to hear about your health issues, Uncle! Glad you're better now:)!

And the above is an interesting question;).


Thank you! I am managing to stagger around, and looking forward to the weekend... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 16, 2016, 02:55:06 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;885451
Thank you! I am managing to stagger around, and looking forward to the weekend... :)


Sometimes the weekend is the best thing one can hope for:).
Title: Greetings From Pechano!
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 16, 2016, 07:45:37 PM
Hi Chirine,

Having recently returned to Tekumel after about a  10 year absence, or so, I just came across this thread over the weekend, and I'm about halfway through! Reading yours and Gronan's anecdotes is nostalgically fantastic. Really reminds me of the games my friends and I used to play in High School.
As someone who has been "exploring" Tekumel since the mid 80's (almost exclusively in Pechano) it's great to get an inside view on Phil's group and on some of his games. A lot of mysteries have also become unravelled and I think that, as a DM, is great. The inside baseball on Tekumel is amazing, and I can tell that you guys had a blast. No wonder Phil's campaigns lasted for decades.  Can't wait for TStPT to be finished. Any chance of posting a snippet or two?
I sent you a couple of messages on your blog email a while back regarding specific questions on Tekumel, but maybe I should post them here?  

Here goes:
Did the group ever make it to my personal favourite part of Tekumel, Pechano, or encounter any Pechani?
As someone who has always used miniatures in their games, I was wondering what colour did you or Phil use to paint Pechani troops? The Armies of Tekumel vol. iv calls for dun, but I'm not really sure what this colour is. I traditionally used a desert tan colour (the old little square Testors' bottles) for my Pechani, and as I slowly rebuild my armies I am faced with repainting and painting. May as well do it right this time.
Also, what colour would be a good match for Tsolyani blue? I have always thought of it as being a type of dark sky blue, kind of like the hue used for the underside of WW2 VVS aircraft. Is this colour too light?
 

Regards,

Shemek hiTankolel.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 16, 2016, 10:33:11 PM
Phil used 3 or 4 different shades of blue.  Serqu, Sword of the Empire was based on Royal blue, a bit brighter than Navy blue, with two lighter tones for trim, plus metallic blue, and a darker blue on the demon face on the shield as shading.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 16, 2016, 10:34:05 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;885189
I don't think it was, actually. I think he thought that they'd make their money back when something took off, and they'd print the actual 5,000 copies. Most of the time, it felt like we were doing prototypes in order to have something for the photos of the trade show booth.


Ooooh, yeah.  That's right, a LOT of AGI stuff felt that way.

Would have worked great in 1979.  In 1984 it was the kiss of death.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 17, 2016, 01:56:21 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;885456
Sometimes the weekend is the best thing one can hope for:).


It's Spring Break - I have all day Friday off, so I can write and answer e-mails!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 17, 2016, 02:26:56 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;885485
Hi Chirine,

Having recently returned to Tekumel after about a  10 year absence, or so, I just came across this thread over the weekend, and I'm about halfway through! Reading yours and Gronan's anecdotes is nostalgically fantastic. Really reminds me of the games my friends and I used to play in High School.
As someone who has been "exploring" Tekumel since the mid 80's (almost exclusively in Pechano) it's great to get an inside view on Phil's group and on some of his games. A lot of mysteries have also become unravelled and I think that, as a DM, is great. The inside baseball on Tekumel is amazing, and I can tell that you guys had a blast. No wonder Phil's campaigns lasted for decades.  Can't wait for TStPT to be finished. Any chance of posting a snippet or two?
I sent you a couple of messages on your blog email a while back regarding specific questions on Tekumel, but maybe I should post them here?  

Here goes:
Did the group ever make it to my personal favourite part of Tekumel, Pechano, or encounter any Pechani?
As someone who has always used miniatures in their games, I was wondering what colour did you or Phil use to paint Pechani troops? The Armies of Tekumel vol. iv calls for dun, but I'm not really sure what this colour is. I traditionally used a desert tan colour (the old little square Testors' bottles) for my Pechani, and as I slowly rebuild my armies I am faced with repainting and painting. May as well do it right this time.
Also, what colour would be a good match for Tsolyani blue? I have always thought of it as being a type of dark sky blue, kind of like the hue used for the underside of WW2 VVS aircraft. Is this colour too light?
 

Regards,

Shemek hiTankolel.


First off, no, I haven't forgotten your e-mails. My department is being shut down, and I'm being transferred to a different one; life has been crazy busy! I have two 'slots' where I can look at messages, one right before I go to work and one right after, so I have to be quick. You are in the stack for this weekend - I have Friday off - and I'll have much longer answers - with color samples!!! - for you this weekend.

I am really happy you found this thread, too! I'm happy to answer questions, and this thread has been a great time for me - and more people get to be involved, too! :)

Right - some short answers:

I have posted some bits of the book in various places; I'll get those listed here for everyone to have a look at, if they want to. What I'm trying to do is tell our stories from our perspectives, as we adventured in Phil's world.

We went to Pechano three times, according to my notes; first after the NW Frontier campaign, again as part of the Second Voyage, and once more as part of the Hekellu micro-campaign. It's a great place to adventure in - just nice enough to have a comfortable place to stay, but very 'frontier' and very 'Conanesque'. The people are glad to see you, mostly 'cause they have the Ssu as next-door neighbors, and the locals can use all the help that they can get.

I will send you paint samples. Phil used the Humbrol line of war-gaming enamels and the similar Floquil line, and I tended to use the Testor's enamels; later on, we both went to acrylics, and I painted a lot of his figures that way. 'Dun' is one of those sort of vague colors, and the Testor's 'Desert Brown' was what I used - I still have all of these bottles (!), and I'll check for you. I should note that Phil repeatedly said that dye lots for clothing and uniforms did vary between batches, so you needn't get too fussy - get the look, and you're there. I'll also look in the collection - I don"t think I had call to paint anybody from Pechano, but I should look before I say for sure!

I had a look at the VVS blue; I think it's a little too light, and a little too green, but that's going to be a tough call - I'll send you come color samples. I used to use shades of blue from a navy blue (Ksarul legions) up through a light blue (Avanthe and Dilinala), but I am now using a Vallejo color, #23 'Electric Blue' as my basic Tsolyani color. It's halfway between the darker shades that Phil used, and the lighter shades I used. (Please see my next reply, to Gronan, as well.) Please have alook on my Photobucket page, in the 'Castle Tilketl' album, to see how this looks on figures.

Next! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 17, 2016, 02:44:34 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;885498
Phil used 3 or 4 different shades of blue.  Serqu, Sword of the Empire was based on Royal blue, a bit brighter than Navy blue, with two lighter tones for trim, plus metallic blue, and a darker blue on the demon face on the shield as shading.


Agreed! I made a list of all his paints when I did the inventory, and I'd better get it put together. I think all of the Serqu colors came out of the Floquil range, with only a few being the Humbrols. I've managed to duplicate the old Floquil 'Samoa' he used for skintones - Testor's Model Master Acrylic 'Red Earth', #4747, I think - and it looks quite good.

One thing I have to remember is just how dark it used to be in the game room out at Phil's; he painted under several desk lamps with 75 watt lamps in them, but that single 100 watter over the game table did him no justice. Ditto the dang tubes in the FLGS - shifts the colors way over into the lighter shades...

Have a look at the 'Castle Tilketl' album, by the way, and you can see our lead alter egos in full cry... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 17, 2016, 02:46:18 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;885499
Ooooh, yeah.  That's right, a LOT of AGI stuff felt that way.

Would have worked great in 1979.  In 1984 it was the kiss of death.


Yep. Remember "Johnny Reb"?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 17, 2016, 09:35:45 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;885517
It's Spring Break - I have all day Friday off, so I can write and answer e-mails!!! :)


Free Fridays are nice even if one sleeps them off. Sometimes those are even the best:)!

I can't find it at the moment, but do they make paint from mollusques in Tsolyanu;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 17, 2016, 10:22:34 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;885523
Yep. Remember "Johnny Reb"?


Great game by all accounts, award winning... do I want to know the print run?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 17, 2016, 09:42:53 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;885521
First off, no, I haven't forgotten your e-mails. My department is being shut down, and I'm being transferred to a different one; life has been crazy busy! I have two 'slots' where I can look at messages, one right before I go to work and one right after, so I have to be quick. You are in the stack for this weekend - I have Friday off - and I'll have much longer answers - with color samples!!! - for you this weekend.[/I]

Ah, thank you. I'm not trying to rush you for an answer I just wasn't sure if they got lost in the aether. :o I appreciate your responding, and look forward to
the complete reply.

I am really happy you found this thread, too! I'm happy to answer questions, and this thread has been a great time for me - and more people get to be involved, too! :)

Man, this is the best place to be when it comes to finding out about and exploring Tekumel. Having gone over a big chunk of the posts in this thread, I cannot understand why the Tekumel Foundation: those self appointed doyens, arbiters and "protectors of  Tekumel" would hoard information on what was so obviously a labour of love by Phil. This is just my 2 Nzuggesh worth but I feel they are doing a disservice to the late Professor's memory and legacy.  

Right - some short answers:

I have posted some bits of the book in various places; I'll get those listed here for everyone to have a look at, if they want to. What I'm trying to do is tell our stories from our perspectives, as we adventured in Phil's world.

I for one would love this.

We went to Pechano three times, according to my notes; first after the NW Frontier campaign, again as part of the Second Voyage, and once more as part of the Hekellu micro-campaign. It's a great place to adventure in - just nice enough to have a comfortable place to stay, but very 'frontier' and very 'Conanesque'. The people are glad to see you, mostly 'cause they have the Ssu as next-door neighbors, and the locals can use all the help that they can get.

I always saw it as being somewhat "rough and tumble". The reason that I initially chose Pechano is because it gave me a lot more lee way when it came to the game environ. This was especially true when I first started adventuring on Tekumel all those years ago. The brief description in the Sourcebook which described a nation and people locked in perpetual warfare with the foes of man sold me on it. The fact that it is a feudal society made it that much easier to integrate the group whose historical point of reference was for the most part medieval Western Europe and Japan.  

I will send you paint samples. Phil used the Humbrol line of war-gaming enamels and the similar Floquil line, and I tended to use the Testor's enamels; later on, we both went to acrylics, and I painted a lot of his figures that way. 'Dun' is one of those sort of vague colors, and the Testor's 'Desert Brown' was what I used - I still have all of these bottles (!), and I'll check for you. I should note that Phil repeatedly said that dye lots for clothing and uniforms did vary between batches, so you needn't get too fussy - get the look, and you're there. I'll also look in the collection - I don"t think I had call to paint anybody from Pechano, but I should look before I say for sure!

That's awesome! Even though I switched over to acrylics ages ago (primarily Vallejo and a mish-mash of other brands like MM, Citadel, and even Floquil) I still use Humbrols exclusively (augmented with artists oils) when I paint my Chota Sahib or Andrea 54mm minis. I probably have the Humbrol tin already if they still make the colour.


I had a look at the VVS blue; I think it's a little too light, and a little too green, but that's going to be a tough call - I'll send you come color samples. I used to use shades of blue from a navy blue (Ksarul legions) up through a light blue (Avanthe and Dilinala), but I am now using a Vallejo color, #23 'Electric Blue' as my basic Tsolyani color. It's halfway between the darker shades that Phil used, and the lighter shades I used. (Please see my next reply, to Gronan, as well.) Please have alook on my Photobucket page, in the 'Castle Tilketl' album, to see how this looks on figures.


That Tsolyani Blue match has bugged me for some time. I remember using the the old Testors Sky Blue with a wash of Navy Blue, and a dry brush of Sky Blue gradually lightened with flat white.  I'll have to take a look at your photobucket page when I start to gather some Tsolyani troops.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 17, 2016, 09:51:51 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;885498
Phil used 3 or 4 different shades of blue.  Serqu, Sword of the Empire was based on Royal blue, a bit brighter than Navy blue, with two lighter tones for trim, plus metallic blue, and a darker blue on the demon face on the shield as shading.
[/I]

Cool. Like I said to Chirine in my earlier post Tsolyani blue has bugged me forever. :banghead:    I had a hard time visualising it in my mind's eye for some reason, and when I was painting Tsolyani troops, some 30+ years ago, there was no internet, as I'm sure you remember. Getting that info was just not as easy as it is today. So I looked at my paints, thought Sky Blue looked nice and away I went.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 17, 2016, 10:09:31 PM
Crom's hairy nutsack, I miss Humbrol enamels.  They seemed to change their formula in the late 70s or early 80s, but the early 70s stuff I got from "La Belle Alliance," before there even WAS a "Little Tin Soldier Shop" -- man, that was some of the nicest paint I EVER used.  Excellent coverage, even light over dark, smooth finish, went on like a dream, uniform color from tin to tin, excellent consistency...  sigh.

My dear wife made me promise to stick to acrylics some years ago.  They've gotten much better, though.  Some of the Badger model railroad colors are astounding... you can airbrush them and then hand brush them and not tell where the spray stops and the brush starts.
Title: Sarku Toops
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 17, 2016, 10:14:31 PM
So, I recently was at a game store and I picked up some GW miniatures (Vampire Counts Grave Guard) which looked perfect for the Temple of Sarku's undead troops. :eek:    The armour and weaponry have a real Tekumel aesthetic to me.  I also had some ancient GW Tomb Kings bits that I found in the shed and between the two I came up with a result that I am quite happy with.
Now, I know that the Temple of Sarku and its clergy tend to favour brown, black and copper colours, but would any of these undead be wearing Tsolyani blue armour? Actually, where do the temple get their undead from? Are they dawn exclusively from Sarku worshippers, or would any corpse be used? I am referring to lesser undead like Mr'ur, as I can't see Jajgi being anything but devotees of the Worm Lord.
Also, what colour was Engsvanyali armour? Was there a national colour, or did each legion have a unique scheme?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 17, 2016, 10:38:31 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;885658
Crom's hairy nutsack, I miss Humbrol enamels.  They seemed to change their formula in the late 70s or early 80s, but the early 70s stuff I got from "La Belle Alliance," before there even WAS a "Little Tin Soldier Shop" -- man, that was some of the nicest paint I EVER used.  Excellent coverage, even light over dark, smooth finish, went on like a dream, uniform color from tin to tin, excellent consistency...  sigh.

My dear wife made me promise to stick to acrylics some years ago.  They've gotten much better, though.  Some of the Badger model railroad colors are astounding... you can airbrush them and then hand brush them and not tell where the spray stops and the brush starts.
[/I]

Those old Humbrol enamels were the bees knees for sure. I think it was all the Toluene they used:thanx:I still get unexpected neural twitches from time to time. I remember there being a noxious atmosphere in the basement with the Humbrol, Testors (square bottle all the way), and the MEK (lacquer thinner) I used to clean the brushes and thin the paint. I know my dad regretted giving me that stuff. I recently bought a bottle of Testors enamel, they still make the square bottles, and it was shit. Crappy coverage, and streaking. I remember their flat colours were some of the best covering paints when I was a kid.
It's amazing how much paint technology has advanced. The acrylics are absolutely amazing. I started using the the Vallejo Colour and Model Air paints about 18 years ago (at the behest of She who must not be named) and never looked back. I remember the wags at my local hobby store giving me a hard time  about switching from Tamiya and Model Master for some reason. To be honest there is no smell at all with the Vallejo and sucking in fumes when I airbrush is no longer my idea of fun. Besides, a bit of Windex is all I need to clean it between colours! I can't say that about the Tamiya, MM, or Gunze paints and their alcohol base.
I've heard a lot of good things about the new Badger paints. I seem to remember that they first launched them back in the 1990's and they were junk. The new ones are obviously much better.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on March 17, 2016, 11:01:56 PM
I used Testors back in the eighties.  I've got a friend who swears by them.  I managed to find some old bottles for him in a small town hardware store about five years ago.  Being enamels they were still good.

Personally I miss Ral Partha's acrylic paints.  Other people felt they were too thick and gloppy but they were highly pigmented and thinned out beautifully.  The Iron Wind Metals stuff was never as good but at least I could still match my color palette.  Nowadays I mostly use Army Painter.  It's a bit crappy but it's fairly cheap and I can get it for my store.  The distribution issues you have to face these days I tell you!

Anyhow, I miss Ral Partha in general.  In a couple weeks I'm going to Calgary for Easter and I'm hoping The Sentry Box still has some packs of the late nineties Fantasy Armies orcs I'm looking for.  Otherwise I'll have to get them at modern prices and pay shipping.

I spend entirely too much time wishing for old products that I can't get anymore.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on March 18, 2016, 12:07:28 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;885659
So, I recently was at a game store and I picked up some GW miniatures (Vampire Counts Grave Guard) which looked perfect for the Temple of Sarku's undead troops. :eek:    The armour and weaponry have a real Tekumel aesthetic to me.  I also had some ancient GW Tomb Kings bits that I found in the shed and between the two I came up with a result that I am quite happy with.
Now, I know that the Temple of Sarku and its clergy tend to favour brown, black and copper colours, but would any of these undead be wearing Tsolyani blue armour? Actually, where do the temple get their undead from? Are they dawn exclusively from Sarku worshippers, or would any corpse be used? I am referring to lesser undead like Mr'ur, as I can't see Jajgi being anything but devotees of the Worm Lord.
Also, what colour was Engsvanyali armour? Was there a national colour, or did each legion have a unique scheme?


Those Vampire Count's Grave Guard look like a good proxy for The Legion of Despairing Dead...Srukarum would be proud!!!

Welcome by the way!!! Keep those questions coming, it's Uncle's lifeblood!!! I myself will be traveling the planes. I will be away till late Trantor(a hero's work is never done). So please keep this thread alive. I shall return...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 18, 2016, 12:31:02 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;881847
True. When I was planning this game - the Dave Arneson Memorial one in 2010 - I wanted to re-stage this particular fight. I re-read Phil's description of the hive-ships, and they sounded like a domed base with a lot of nautical frou-frou stuck on. I instantly thought of Ken Fletcher, and his wonderful drawings, and I was off looking at pre-dreadnoughts for inspiration. Here's what they looked like in the pink foam...

(And the Lighting Bringer did work, by the way; I was very proud of that.)


This post was from a little while ago, but I always thought they looked like some kind of angular ziggurat, not so rounded. Who knew?:idunno:

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 18, 2016, 12:33:06 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;885669
Those Vampire Count's Grave Guard look like a good proxy for The Legion of Despairing Dead...Srukarum would be proud!!!

Welcome by the way!!! Keep those questions coming, it's Uncle's lifeblood!!! I myself will be traveling the planes. I will be away till late Trantor(a hero's work is never done). So please keep this thread alive. I shall return...

H:0)


Thank you for the welcome. That's what I was thinking of using them as, or as casualties from some forgotten legion or other.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 18, 2016, 01:00:28 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;885662
I used Testors back in the eighties.  I've got a friend who swears by them.  I managed to find some old bottles for him in a small town hardware store about five years ago.  Being enamels they were still good.

Personally I miss Ral Partha's acrylic paints.  Other people felt they were too thick and gloppy but they were highly pigmented and thinned out beautifully.  The Iron Wind Metals stuff was never as good but at least I could still match my color palette.  Nowadays I mostly use Army Painter.  It's a bit crappy but it's fairly cheap and I can get it for my store.  The distribution issues you have to face these days I tell you!

Anyhow, I miss Ral Partha in general.  In a couple weeks I'm going to Calgary for Easter and I'm hoping The Sentry Box still has some packs of the late nineties Fantasy Armies orcs I'm looking for.  Otherwise I'll have to get them at modern prices and pay shipping.

I spend entirely too much time wishing for old products that I can't get anymore.


Believe it or not I have a couple of  bottles of Testors from the 70's, copper and gold. Still good. In fact, I'll probably use the copper on my Sarku troops. You can still get them at many hobby stores, at least the ones here. I know they used to make them in Ontario, but since they moved production down to the States the formulation changed and I find that they are not as good as they were before. They just don't want to mix with other colours. As an aside, the Testors OD Green, Olive Green, and Flat Black is an exact match to the CF camo on the old Leos, Cougars, Grizzlies, Deuces/Deuce and a Halfs, (ML's), HL's, Iltis', etc... In fact, I'm pretty sure that the newer kit uses the same camo colours.
I remember the Ral Partha paints. I had a few of them. They were my first attempt at using acrylics. Unfortunately, they all dried up rather quickly, and I found them too chalky. Probably because I was so used to the Testors and didn't know how to properly use the acrylics. I went back to enamels until at  least the mid 90's or so when started using Vallejo and Citadel. My two favourite colour names from RP were Bullywug Belly Green, and Mindflayer Mauve.  Don't think I have used Army Painters, but I may have an Ink from them. Wow, if the Sentry has them in stock surely they must be ancient? Were they purchased by the Lords of the Latter Times and forgotten about? ;) Are you sure you're not going to Gidj and Sons? When did Ral Partha stop making paints?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 18, 2016, 09:29:32 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;885660

I remember there being a noxious atmosphere in the basement with the Humbrol, Testors (square bottle all the way), and the MEK (lacquer thinner) I used to clean the brushes and thin the paint.


Phil once reamed my ass out royally for using lacquer thinner on Humbrol instead of turpentine or mineral spirits; Humbrol is an enamel, not a lacquer.  Not the same thing.

Floquil paints are(were?) lacquers and they're even worse.  I was painting with Floquil in high school once and my older brother, who was taking organic chem, walked in, picked up the can of Dio-Sol, and read the label.  Tolulene and xylene.  He put the can down and said "Little brother, you do not want this shit anywhere near you."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 18, 2016, 09:30:58 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;885672
Thank you for the welcome. That's what I was thinking of using them as, or as casualties from some forgotten legion or other.

Shemek


What Undead are made from also depends on if it's one of the big temples in a big city or someplace out in the boonies.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 18, 2016, 11:53:12 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;885735
What Undead are made from also depends on if it's one of the big temples in a big city or someplace out in the boonies.


Makes sense. Just out of curiosity, would they use the remains of another temple's followers? Would the Worm Lord's priest reanimate a dead warrior of Lord Karakan? I'm sure that would cheese off some folks if it got out that they were doing this.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 01:08:08 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;885658
Crom's hairy nutsack, I miss Humbrol enamels.  They seemed to change their formula in the late 70s or early 80s, but the early 70s stuff I got from "La Belle Alliance," before there even WAS a "Little Tin Soldier Shop" -- man, that was some of the nicest paint I EVER used.  Excellent coverage, even light over dark, smooth finish, went on like a dream, uniform color from tin to tin, excellent consistency...  sigh.

My dear wife made me promise to stick to acrylics some years ago.  They've gotten much better, though.  Some of the Badger model railroad colors are astounding... you can airbrush them and then hand brush them and not tell where the spray stops and the brush starts.


Agreed. That wonderful velvety 'Ancient Purple' in their wargame line was exquisite; Phil used it for his Priests of Hry'y. I finally found an acrylic that matches it.

Hey - maybe I should do a paint chart or something, that gives phil's old coors and the modern paints that match them... ?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 01:16:56 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;885659
So, I recently was at a game store and I picked up some GW miniatures (Vampire Counts Grave Guard) which looked perfect for the Temple of Sarku's undead troops. :eek:    The armour and weaponry have a real Tekumel aesthetic to me.  I also had some ancient GW Tomb Kings bits that I found in the shed and between the two I came up with a result that I am quite happy with.
Now, I know that the Temple of Sarku and its clergy tend to favour brown, black and copper colours, but would any of these undead be wearing Tsolyani blue armour? Actually, where do the temple get their undead from? Are they dawn exclusively from Sarku worshippers, or would any corpse be used? I am referring to lesser undead like Mr'ur, as I can't see Jajgi being anything but devotees of the Worm Lord.
Also, what colour was Engsvanyali armour? Was there a national colour, or did each legion have a unique scheme?


A lot of the GW figures have that 'Phil' look to them; design-wise, you can trace the design elements from the Ral Partha - Citadel connection on through the earlier plastics. I use a lot of these - the one-part with maybe a separate shield - in my models; the Glorious General's Legion, Mnashu of Thri'il, is a block of eighty GW elves with different (Foundry) shields. The Tomb Kings are also very, very useful - they have that 'Hollywood Aegyptian' look to them that Phil loved.

Crocodile Games is also a very good source of figures for Tekumel, too. The various Asar figures are useful, as are their mummys. can't ever have enough Undead, says I s a GM... :)

Yes - you would see Tsolyani undead with some blue on them - it's a national thing.

They get them from the 'in-house' sources; they generally don't even think of   'outsourcing the supply', as the consequences would be pretty dire if they got caught.

White and gold, with trims for individual units and temples. Individual units had individual uniforms - Phil did some drawings for me - but were usually in the white and gold scheme. For example, Nyelmu's Pale Legion is in white and steel, with purple trim - I did some for Phil.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 01:18:06 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;885669
Those Vampire Count's Grave Guard look like a good proxy for The Legion of Despairing Dead...Srukarum would be proud!!!

Welcome by the way!!! Keep those questions coming, it's Uncle's lifeblood!!! I myself will be traveling the planes. I will be away till late Trantor(a hero's work is never done). So please keep this thread alive. I shall return...

H:0)


We'll be here! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 01:19:17 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;885671
This post was from a little while ago, but I always thought they looked like some kind of angular ziggurat, not so rounded. Who knew?:idunno:

Shemek


Oh, right; I had to go back and look in the Sourcebook, myself.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 01:23:30 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;885673
Believe it or not I have a couple of  bottles of Testors from the 70's, copper and gold. Still good. In fact, I'll probably use the copper on my Sarku troops. You can still get them at many hobby stores, at least the ones here. I know they used to make them in Ontario, but since they moved production down to the States the formulation changed and I find that they are not as good as they were before. They just don't want to mix with other colours. As an aside, the Testors OD Green, Olive Green, and Flat Black is an exact match to the CF camo on the old Leos, Cougars, Grizzlies, Deuces/Deuce and a Halfs, (ML's), HL's, Iltis', etc... In fact, I'm pretty sure that the newer kit uses the same camo colours.
I remember the Ral Partha paints. I had a few of them. They were my first attempt at using acrylics. Unfortunately, they all dried up rather quickly, and I found them too chalky. Probably because I was so used to the Testors and didn't know how to properly use the acrylics. I went back to enamels until at  least the mid 90's or so when started using Vallejo and Citadel. My two favourite colour names from RP were Bullywug Belly Green, and Mindflayer Mauve.  Don't think I have used Army Painters, but I may have an Ink from them. Wow, if the Sentry has them in stock surely they must be ancient? Were they purchased by the Lords of the Latter Times and forgotten about? ;) Are you sure you're not going to Gidj and Sons? When did Ral Partha stop making paints?

Shemek


Same here - a lot of mine just needed a drop of paint thinner to get them to come back to life. Kinda scary to see bottles marked with 25 cents on them!

I got started with Liquitex acrylics; they are great, especially in the older lines. I use the 'Basics' tubes for scenery, and the 'artists colors' for the miniatures.

Still got some Parthas, too; I use an eye dropper to put a bit of water in them when I use them, and it seems to keep them going pretty well.

Sentry box is wonderful - take a look at their website, and marvel...!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 01:24:55 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;885734
Phil once reamed my ass out royally for using lacquer thinner on Humbrol instead of turpentine or mineral spirits; Humbrol is an enamel, not a lacquer.  Not the same thing.

Floquil paints are(were?) lacquers and they're even worse.  I was painting with Floquil in high school once and my older brother, who was taking organic chem, walked in, picked up the can of Dio-Sol, and read the label.  Tolulene and xylene.  He put the can down and said "Little brother, you do not want this shit anywhere near you."


Agreed! I still think that this is what hastened the passing of so many of the people we knew - especially the Napoleonics guys.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 01:25:51 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;885735
What Undead are made from also depends on if it's one of the big temples in a big city or someplace out in the boonies.


Yep; clan, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 01:28:19 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;885757
Makes sense. Just out of curiosity, would they use the remains of another temple's followers? Would the Worm Lord's priest reanimate a dead warrior of Lord Karakan? I'm sure that would cheese off some folks if it got out that they were doing this.


I very strongly doubt it. It'd be a violation of the Great Concordat, and the Imperium - as well as the higher-up in both temples - would come down really, really hard on whomever was doing this. Player-characters would be hired to go out and exterminate the culprit...

(Says the Imperium's usual hatchet-man...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 01:31:30 AM
I think I'm all caught up... :thanx:

All this talk about miniatures has reminded me to get back into the shop and get the paints & brushes out. I have a huge backlog of stuff to do; would there be any interest in my commenting on useful figures for Tekumel someplace?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 01:39:10 AM
Ooops! Almost forgot! Here's a selection of the First of the First for you; this is some of the figures that have been produced by first Ral Partha, then by me and Gronan, and then by PHD. The darker red tunics on the left are the first Mu'uglavyani that I painted with Phil, long before the 'official' color scheme was published, and the rank on the right is in the "Armies" color scheme. The pikes are from North Star, and I think they really look great!

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UJBcd7jdh-c/VE-T2vs9UmI/AAAAAAAABSg/AHmcP-yguFQ/s1600/DSC00117.JPG)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 19, 2016, 06:24:24 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;885882
Ooops! Almost forgot! Here's a selection of the First of the First for you; this is some of the figures that have been produced by first Ral Partha, then by me and Gronan, and then by PHD. The darker red tunics on the left are the first Mu'uglavyani that I painted with Phil, long before the 'official' color scheme was published, and the rank on the right is in the "Armies" color scheme. The pikes are from North Star, and I think they really look great!
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UJBcd7jdh-c/VE-T2vs9UmI/AAAAAAAABSg/AHmcP-yguFQ/s1600/DSC00117.JPG


These are some long pikes:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 19, 2016, 12:14:13 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;885880
I very strongly doubt it. It'd be a violation of the Great Concordat, and the Imperium - as well as the higher-up in both temples - would come down really, really hard on whomever was doing this. Player-characters would be hired to go out and exterminate the culprit...

(Says the Imperium's usual hatchet-man...)


Hence my comment about "out in the boonies".  A small temple of Sarku somewhere in a city with few followers, some bandits actually dare to rob the place and get away, the local priests need some Mrur for guards, worshippers are in short supply, who will ever know...

..."Chirine, we've been ordered to take three cohorts and investigate a rumor.  I cannot give details of course, and it is only a rumor, but I would esteem it a favor if you'd ask my batman to pack my worm-proof kilt."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 19, 2016, 12:18:42 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;885901
These are some long pikes:D!


That's because they're pikes and not spears.  In ancient Greek times the pike was a response to long spears.  First they started at sixteen feet (I think), then eighteen, then twenty, then twenty-two.  Seriously, they did.  Twenty two feet was the maximum length used.

This was as long as the pike got, also known as the pike's peak.




(shamelessly stolen from "It All Started with Stones and Clubs" by Richard Armour.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 19, 2016, 12:20:36 PM
Truth to tell, I honestly prefer the more muted red of Chirine's earlier Mu'uglavani troops.

And notice the colored and lettered spots on the bases, class; each stand is clearly identified as to nation, legion, cohort, and I think place in the cohort.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 19, 2016, 03:48:06 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;885872

Hey - maybe I should do a paint chart or something, that gives phil's old coors and the modern paints that match them... ?


I for one would greatly appreciate this, as I use mini's in my games. Since I am rebuilding/creating my collection I know that it would be of tremendous help to get the correct colours from one of the guys who first painted Tekumel miniatures. A suitable miniature list would also be of benefit, and truly appreciated!:D

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 04:16:59 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;885901
These are some long pikes:D!


They are indeed, and they scare the crap out of the people I play. Gamesmanship, as we say...

And they do look the part, I think...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 04:19:39 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;885935
That's because they're pikes and not spears.  In ancient Greek times the pike was a response to long spears.  First they started at sixteen feet (I think), then eighteen, then twenty, then twenty-two.  Seriously, they did.  Twenty two feet was the maximum length used.

This was as long as the pike got, also known as the pike's peak.

(shamelessly stolen from "It All Started with Stones and Clubs" by Richard Armour.)


Nyuk! Nyuk! We're here all week, folks! Try the veal!

Seriously, I do try to model the different lengths of pole arms on the table; it helps the players, and looks cooler. I shudder to think how much piano wire has gone over the workbench in the past forty years...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 19, 2016, 04:24:37 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;885935
That's because they're pikes and not spears.  In ancient Greek times the pike was a response to long spears.  First they started at sixteen feet (I think), then eighteen, then twenty, then twenty-two.  Seriously, they did.  Twenty two feet was the maximum length used.

This was as long as the pike got, also known as the pike's peak.




(shamelessly stolen from "It All Started with Stones and Clubs" by Richard Armour.)

Didn't they reach something like 27 feet under Alexander? I'm not sure about the exact number, and it was a historical novel that mentioned it, using meters (8m) at that. But I seem to remember longer than 22 feet.
Either way, you were following a good historical example:). My exclamation was because most people that make models seem to assume pikes are about as long as a spear, and it's always nice to see people that didn't do that.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;885968
They are indeed, and they scare the crap out of the people I play. Gamesmanship, as we say...

And they do look the part, I think...

They sure look the part, and I can't help but think that I'd treat them with utmost caution, if I ever was to touch them;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 04:30:48 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;885937
Truth to tell, I honestly prefer the more muted red of Chirine's earlier Mu'uglavani troops.

And notice the colored and lettered spots on the bases, class; each stand is clearly identified as to nation, legion, cohort, and I think place in the cohort.


Thank you! The guys never did any 'test shots' of their color schemes in the "Armies" series, and they got a little odd-looking by the end of each troop list. (Which is why I have so many individual 'orphan' cohorts floating around the collection.) Phil told me 'red', so I airbrushed all of the original Mu'uglavyani with a Polly S 'Boxcar Red', which is what you see here. Details to suit.

(If I may be immodest for a moment, I have five airbrushes in the arsenal. Two are vintage Thayer and Chandlers, a 'AA' and an 'E'. Both are older then I am, and still work just fine. Yes, I am an airbrush snob.)

The dots arose out ot he use of my troops as the 'demo armies' for the games we ran at conventions. The dots help new players identify the units, and really speed up play. (Not my I idea, either; I used the concept first used by the Egg of Coot for his miniatures.) In my system, they read from front to back:

Dot color: (unit type) (nation) (armor type)
Letters/ numbers: (unit) (region / palace) (cohort)

I had originally noted the stand's place in the individual cohort, as Gronan notes, but gave it up after a few games - the information wasn't needed in actual game play, so I dropped it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 19, 2016, 04:34:28 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;885877


Yes - you would see Tsolyani undead with some blue on them - it's a national thing.

I kind of thought so. Even though they may be Sarku troops it would make sense that they had Tsolyani kit if they originated from that land.
BTW, what colour scheme would troopers from the Battalions of the Seal of the Worm, or the Phalanx of Lord Durritlamish of the Rotted Face have? Would their armour be a combo of browns and blues, or primarily blue?

They get them from the 'in-house' sources; they generally don't even think of 'outsourcing the supply', as the consequences would be pretty dire if they got caught.

Makes sense.  Although I tend to agree what Gronan said regarding a temple in the boonies. "Don't ask, don't tell"?:rolleyes:


White and gold, with trims for individual units and temples. Individual units had individual uniforms - Phil did some drawings for me - but were usually in the white and gold scheme. For example, Nyelmu's Pale Legion is in white and steel, with purple trim - I did some for Phil.

That would look great on a table top!! 30 or 40 of these guys would provide an amazing visual. Out of curiosity what minis did you use for them? Do you have any pics that you could post?


Same here - a lot of mine just needed a drop of paint thinner to get them to come back to life. Kinda scary to see bottles marked with 25 cents on them!

Tell me about it. I recently found some old Polly S paints that are still good, and they've got to be 20 years old at least.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 04:35:08 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;885965
I for one would greatly appreciate this, as I use mini's in my games. Since I am rebuilding/creating my collection I know that it would be of tremendous help to get the correct colours from one of the guys who first painted Tekumel miniatures. A suitable miniature list would also be of benefit, and truly appreciated!:D

Shemek


Right, then! I'll get to work!

In general, there's Howard Fielding and The Tekumel Project for the specifically Tekumel figures. Ral Partha is re-releasing all of the classic figures that we used, so you can get those and really have what we had. I also suggest the Crocodile Games and Dark Fable lines, as they have all the 'palace people', 'townspeople', and 'adventurers' one might need for games.

Lots more to come! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 04:37:36 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;885934
Hence my comment about "out in the boonies".  A small temple of Sarku somewhere in a city with few followers, some bandits actually dare to rob the place and get away, the local priests need some Mrur for guards, worshippers are in short supply, who will ever know...

..."Chirine, we've been ordered to take three cohorts and investigate a rumor.  I cannot give details of course, and it is only a rumor, but I would esteem it a favor if you'd ask my batman to pack my worm-proof kilt."


Precisely. People out in the boonies get up to the most annoying things, and we had to get out there and put some boots on the ground on a regular basis. But then, that is what we adventurers do, isn't  it?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 04:48:39 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;885972
Didn't they reach something like 27 feet under Alexander? I'm not sure about the exact number, and it was a historical novel that mentioned it, using meters (8m) at that. But I seem to remember longer than 22 feet.
Either way, you were following a good historical example:). My exclamation was because most people that make models seem to assume pikes are about as long as a spear, and it's always nice to see people that didn't do that.

They sure look the part, and I can't help but think that I'd treat them with utmost caution, if I ever was to touch them;).


The sarissa. I think it got to about 24 feet. One of the reasons why I watched Stone's "Alexander", actually; nothing like some phalanx warfare to spend a Saturday afternoon with. Most of the movie was not all that great, but Angelina Jolie as Olympias stole the show. You can understand why they killed Olympias the moment they found out that Alexander was dead; she was a definite menace to navigation, all the way around...

First of the First may be my favorite Tekumel unit; they have, as I've mentioned, never failed a morale check and tend to grimly grind their way over anything that gets in their way. I've never run a game where they faced the Tsolyani legion, Serqu, Swords of the Empire, or the Tsolyani First Legion of Ever-Present Glory. Both are excessively tough units, and Serqu has also had a tremendous record on the table top.

I simply do not want to be there for that game... :eek:

Had a player who made the mistake of leaning over too close to my pikemen (Serqu, actually) and stood back up with her chest full of infantry. Had a hysterical ten minutes pulling them all out... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 04:55:06 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;885976
Quote from: chirine ba kal;885877


Yes - you would see Tsolyani undead with some blue on them - it's a national thing.

I kind of thought so. Even though they may be Sarku troops it would make sense that they had Tsolyani kit if they originated from that land.
BTW, what colour scheme would troopers from the Battalions of the Seal of the Worm, or the Phalanx of Lord Durritlamish of the Rotted Face have? Would their armour be a combo of browns and blues, or primarily blue?

They get them from the 'in-house' sources; they generally don't even think of 'outsourcing the supply', as the consequences would be pretty dire if they got caught.

Makes sense.  Although I tend to agree what Gronan said regarding a temple in the boonies. "Don't ask, don't tell"?:rolleyes:


White and gold, with trims for individual units and temples. Individual units had individual uniforms - Phil did some drawings for me - but were usually in the white and gold scheme. For example, Nyelmu's Pale Legion is in white and steel, with purple trim - I did some for Phil.

That would look great on a table top!! 30 or 40 of these guys would provide an amazing visual. Out of curiosity what minis did you use for them? Do you have any pics that you could post?


Same here - a lot of mine just needed a drop of paint thinner to get them to come back to life. Kinda scary to see bottles marked with 25 cents on them!

Tell me about it. I recently found some old Polly S paints that are still good, and they've got to be 20 years old at least.


Yep, Sarku troops are primarily browns, blacks, some white and purple, and lots and lots of copper. Blue trims for Tsolyani.

Agreed; that's what PCs are for... :)

I used a batch of loose figures that I had left-over from Ral Partha blister-packs; Mu'uglavyani, mostly, with some of the odd 'Sons of Set' humans that Phil had been sent by a guy in Scotland. I can shoot some photos for you. I'm not sure what I'd use today; I'll have to think about this for a bit.

Same here. I like to put a drop of denatured alcohol in my remaining Polly S bottles every now and then; it seems to help, along with the water.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 19, 2016, 04:57:52 PM
How DOES one politely ask "May I remove my soldiers from your boobies, mademoiselle?"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 19, 2016, 04:58:36 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;885977
Right, then! I'll get to work!

In general, there's Howard Fielding and The Tekumel Project for the specifically Tekumel figures. Ral Partha is re-releasing all of the classic figures that we used, so you can get those and really have what we had. I also suggest the Crocodile Games and Dark Fable lines, as they have all the 'palace people', 'townspeople', and 'adventurers' one might need for games.

Lots more to come! :)



That's brilliant! Thank you. I can't wait to see those lists.
I really like the look of Howard's miniatures. I just wish that I had learnt about them earlier.  A lot of the ones I want don't seem to be available. However, he does have some Tsolyani troops still in stock, including some of the Glorious General's Own. I plan to pick up some of them, and some 1st Legion guys and use them to start rebuilding my Nchesh  of  the Splendid Slayers of Ssu. :D I used to use Assyrian troops (I think Ral Partha?) for my Pechani, but I have no idea where they ended up. Probably with some neighbour's kid:(
I recently fired off an email to Howard and he mentioned that the Legion of Red Devastation was the next lot that he was going to have available. I will get some of them for sure. I just wish he had some Yan Koryanis. The Crossbow troops look really good.
Those Crocodile Games and Dark Fable miniatures are great. That's something that is hard to get right: suitable "civilians".


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 19, 2016, 05:02:01 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;885988
How DOES one politely ask "May I remove my soldiers from your boobies, mademoiselle?"


Badump Bump!

Take my legion, please.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 19, 2016, 05:03:45 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;885983
The sarissa. I think it got to about 24 feet.

All I find online was about something like 25 feet. Guess I might have rounded them up:).

Quote
One of the reasons why I watched Stone's "Alexander", actually; nothing like some phalanx warfare to spend a Saturday afternoon with. Most of the movie was not all that great, but Angelina Jolie as Olympias stole the show. You can understand why they killed Olympias the moment they found out that Alexander was dead; she was a definite menace to navigation, all the way around...

I'm still considering whether to watch it. Hollywood tends not to make decent historical movies, in my estimations.

Quote
First of the First may be my favorite Tekumel unit; they have, as I've mentioned, never failed a morale check and tend to grimly grind their way over anything that gets in their way. I've never run a game where they faced the Tsolyani legion, Serqu, Swords of the Empire, or the Tsolyani First Legion of Ever-Present Glory. Both are excessively tough units, and Serqu has also had a tremendous record on the table top.

I simply do not want to be there for that game... :eek:

Interesting. Why not?
Personally, I'd want a video:D!

Quote
Had a player who made the mistake of leaning over too close to my pikemen (Serqu, actually) and stood back up with her chest full of infantry. Had a hysterical ten minutes pulling them all out... :)

Well, that's why I said "utmost caution";). I get enough chances to break my fingers during a typical week, I don't need to stab them on top of that!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 19, 2016, 05:03:45 PM
For Polly S, do NOT use Isopropyl alcohol, but denatured ethanol.  Sadly, isopropyl makes Polly S curdle, as my Federation Starships discovered to my sorrow.

And I'm going to go on a "Damn kids" rant now.  Back in the early 80s we were mad for the FASA Star Trek starship combat game, and Chirine and I had a heap of the miniatures.  We enlisted an artist friend to take the old AMT decal sheets and do up artwork for suitable decals in a scale for the minis, but never actually produced the decals because 3 color decals with registration precise enough (black, red, yellow) was prohibitively expensive.

Nowadays we could just scan it, shrink it, and use inkjet-compatible decal paper and Bob's yer uncle.

And I'll bet none of you little snots have ever had to paste up hunks of typeset using rubber cement, either.  ("Somebody get the acetone, the Glorious General has webbed himself to the desk again.")(There's a reason I usually cast the figures instead of doing the pasteup.)

And git offa my lawn.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 05:06:07 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;885988
How DOES one politely ask "May I remove my soldiers from your boobies, mademoiselle?"


Well, first I laughed until I cried, and then told her to look down - she was unaware that she had four cohorts on board. After she picked her jaw up off the floor, I said "Let a man in here!" and simply got on with plucking the troopers out of her cleavage. No wounds, on either side; her sweater protected her quite well.

She was much more careful, after that... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 05:12:25 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;885989
That's brilliant! Thank you. I can't wait to see those lists.
I really like the look of Howard's miniatures. I just wish that I had learnt about them earlier.  A lot of the ones I want don't seem to be available. However, he does have some Tsolyani troops still in stock, including some of the Glorious General's Own. I plan to pick up some of them, and some 1st Legion guys and use them to start rebuilding my Nchesh  of  the Splendid Slayers of Ssu. :D I used to use Assyrian troops (I think Ral Partha?) for my Pechani, but I have no idea where they ended up. Probably with some neighbour's kid:(
I recently fired off an email to Howard and he mentioned that the Legion of Red Devastation was the next lot that he was going to have available. I will get some of them for sure. I just wish he had some Yan Koryanis. The Crossbow troops look really good.
Those Crocodile Games and Dark Fable miniatures are great. That's something that is hard to get right: suitable "civilians".

Shemek


Agreed! He moved production from Eureka (Australia) to RAFM (Canada) due to the logistics. I'd look at Foundry Assyrians for your Pechani, myself. You can get them for reasonable prices, and you may be able to get the nice guys at Iron Wind to cast you up some of the Ral Partha Assyrians.

Howard's Yan Koryani are exquisite. You get three different helmets, three different armor styles, and both male and female troopers and officers. I have done both Gureks of Tleku Miriya, I and II, and they look great. We faced them at Castle Tiketl.

Agreed; and they're fun to paint, too! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 19, 2016, 05:13:47 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;885992
For Polly S, do NOT use Isopropyl alcohol, but denatured ethanol.  Sadly, isopropyl makes Polly S curdle,


Been there, done that. I got so pissed off that the battle mech I was painting somehow managed to become embedded into the nearest wall:hmm: Who would have known that a Battlemaster was so aerodynamic?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 05:14:16 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;885990
Badump Bump!

Take my legion, please.


Like I say, we're here all week. :)

"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends
We're so glad you could attend, come inside, come inside!
"
-E,L,&P
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 05:25:46 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;885992
For Polly S, do NOT use Isopropyl alcohol, but denatured ethanol.  Sadly, isopropyl makes Polly S curdle, as my Federation Starships discovered to my sorrow.

And I'm going to go on a "Damn kids" rant now.  Back in the early 80s we were mad for the FASA Star Trek starship combat game, and Chirine and I had a heap of the miniatures.  We enlisted an artist friend to take the old AMT decal sheets and do up artwork for suitable decals in a scale for the minis, but never actually produced the decals because 3 color decals with registration precise enough (black, red, yellow) was prohibitively expensive.

Nowadays we could just scan it, shrink it, and use inkjet-compatible decal paper and Bob's yer uncle.

And I'll bet none of you little snots have ever had to paste up hunks of typeset using rubber cement, either.  ("Somebody get the acetone, the Glorious General has webbed himself to the desk again.")(There's a reason I usually cast the figures instead of doing the pasteup.)

And git offa my lawn.


Yep. Important tip there, folks.

Ah, all those little Zocchi ships from the Franz Joseph "Technical Manual", and then the cast metal FASA ships. Oh, those were the days! Five- and ten-ought brushes, permanent inks, and you do not want to know about the belly paint on the Romulan Warbird. (Drove me nuts, it did.) Somebody actually make decals sets for all of these, and of course now FFG has done it all in prepainted poly / vinyl for you. No challenge left.

Stuff the damn rubber cement - remember the awful hot waxer that we had at AGI? Arneson was so happy to have it, as all the 'professionals' used one; he never touched it; I did get a lot of nice burns, though.

These kids, these days. Never suffered for their art, I'll betcha... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 19, 2016, 05:28:02 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;885996 I'd look at Foundry Assyrians for your Pechani, myself.
[/QUOTE


Just out of curiosity, are there any North American distributors for these guys? I took a quick peek on their website and they look really good. My experience with purchases from the UK has been super long waits, and mucho $$$.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 05:28:03 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;885998
Been there, done that. I got so pissed off that the battle mech I was painting somehow managed to become embedded into the nearest wall:hmm: Who would have known that a Battlemaster was so aerodynamic?


What areodynamics? It's the weight of the lead that give it the range and penetration.

Use Simple Green, if you can still find it. A bath of this product will remove any paint from any model, and ill not harm either metal or plastic. Works like a charm; I get the gallon jugs from Home Depot, 'cause I is lazy.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 05:32:35 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886004
Just out of curiosity, are there any North American distributors for these guys? I took a quick peek on their website and they look really good. My experience with purchases from the UK has been super long waits, and mucho $$$.


Well, I'd ask around in the HMGS, or ask Sentry Box in Calgary; if they don't have some, you'll have to be patient.

And, he offered, you could always nose about the historicals people to see if anybody is getting rid of an Assyrian army. For that matter, look around the GW aftermarket for the older Elves, which tend to have the tall pointed helmets and look really good with different shields - Howard now has a line of shields that are just wonderful, by the way - and keep an eye open. I've seen a lot of older GW stuff go for next to nothing...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 19, 2016, 05:47:27 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886003
Yep. Important tip there, folks.

Ah, all those little Zocchi ships from the Franz Joseph "Technical Manual", and then the cast metal FASA ships. Oh, those were the days! Five- and ten-ought brushes, permanent inks, and you do not want to know about the belly paint on the Romulan Warbird. (Drove me nuts, it did.) Somebody actually make decals sets for all of these, and of course now FFG has done it all in prepainted poly / vinyl for you. No challenge left.

Stuff the damn rubber cement - remember the awful hot waxer that we had at AGI? Arneson was so happy to have it, as all the 'professionals' used one; he never touched it; I did get a lot of nice burns, though.

These kids, these days. Never suffered for their art, I'll betcha... :)


And don't get me started on scratch building. I was at my local hobby store today showing off a 1/35 KV2 I have just finished and one of the "lads" was shocked to hear that I actually didn't use any after market resin products, or photo etch. "Why did you do it like that? Why didn't you just buy some aftermarket stuff?" My friend and I just looked at each other. To each his own I guess.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 19, 2016, 05:54:41 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886006
Well, I'd ask around in the HMGS, or ask Sentry Box in Calgary; if they don't have some, you'll have to be patient.

And, he offered, you could always nose about the historicals people to see if anybody is getting rid of an Assyrian army. For that matter, look around the GW aftermarket for the older Elves, which tend to have the tall pointed helmets and look really good with different shields - Howard now has a line of shields that are just wonderful, by the way - and keep an eye open. I've seen a lot of older GW stuff go for next to nothing...


I'll drop the Sentry Box a line. I'll have to start checking out eBay. I've gotten some good stuff there in the past.  BTW, what is HMGS?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 06:25:15 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886009
And don't get me started on scratch building. I was at my local hobby store today showing off a 1/35 KV2 I have just finished and one of the "lads" was shocked to hear that I actually didn't use any after market resin products, or photo etch. "Why did you do it like that? Why didn't you just buy some aftermarket stuff?" My friend and I just looked at each other. To each his own I guess.


Tell me about it. Let's face it - modeling Tekumel means that there's going to be a lot of scratch-building that's going to get done. I used to run big open games at the biggest local game shop, but there were a couple of incidents with the staff that really put me off.

One was one of the guys telling me that I needed to bring my work up to the standard of the GW 'Eavy Metal' crew, because the store wanted to use my games as a way to promote miniatures - which don't sell all that well, for them, as they are in a local market dominated by RPGs. Well, all right, I said, but you do know that the pictures you see in the GW magazines are usually by their professional and well-paid in-house crew? God as my witness, he didn't know that - he thought that it was done by 'local gamers', or something. I told them that I would be happy to paint to the GW standard, if I was getting GW rates. Never heard anything back about it.

Second 'Great Moment In Retailing' came when I was buying some Reaper Pathfinder figures for use as PCs in my campaign, and the nice young man behind the counter was kind enough to point out that the store was running an Officially Sanctioned And Authorized Pathfinder Tournament in the game area. I thought this was fine, but made the mistake of mentioning that I didn't play the game. The lad asked me why I was buying the miniatures, then? if I wasn't playing the game; the other bright young lad behind the counter, at the other register, told the first one that I was famous for not playing any games, which he said was pretty weird. I just stood there and looked at the two of them for a bit, and asked if they would simply ring up the purchase for me. I felt like I needed a letter from the shop's owner, who I know, allowing me to buy figures I like for a game that I don't play, so that I can use them in a game I do like.

The third 'Great Moment' came when I was standing next to the miniatures racks, and a guy shows his friend a pack of generic Sherman tanks. The friend says "We can't use those! They aren't made by the company that did the rules that we play!" These were, I gathered, not the Official, Authorized, Sanctioned Sherman tanks allowed in game play.

Scratch-building in gaming may just be extinct. I don't think I'd be allowed to use my Airfix models - let alone my Tamiya ones! - in a game, any more...:(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 06:27:23 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886011
I'll drop the Sentry Box a line. I'll have to start checking out eBay. I've gotten some good stuff there in the past.  BTW, what is HMGS?

Shemek


Yeah, I think that's the best place to start. I used to get really good deals on e-bay, haven't looked in ages.

Sorry! HMGS is the Historical Miniatures Gaming Society; they have chapters and meetings all over the place, I'm told.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 19, 2016, 06:46:27 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886014
Tell me about it. Let's face it - modeling Tekumel means that there's going to be a lot of scratch-building that's going to get done. I used to run big open games at the biggest local game shop, but there were a couple of incidents with the staff that really put me off.

One was one of the guys telling me that I needed to bring my work up to the standard of the GW 'Eavy Metal' crew, because the store wanted to use my games as a way to promote miniatures - which don't sell all that well, for them, as they are in a local market dominated by RPGs. Well, all right, I said, but you do know that the pictures you see in the GW magazines are usually by their professional and well-paid in-house crew? God as my witness, he didn't know that - he thought that it was done by 'local gamers', or something. I told them that I would be happy to paint to the GW standard, if I was getting GW rates. Never heard anything back about it.

Second 'Great Moment In Retailing' came when I was buying some Reaper Pathfinder figures for use as PCs in my campaign, and the nice young man behind the counter was kind enough to point out that the store was running an Officially Sanctioned And Authorized Pathfinder Tournament in the game area. I thought this was fine, but made the mistake of mentioning that I didn't play the game. The lad asked me why I was buying the miniatures, then? if I wasn't playing the game; the other bright young lad behind the counter, at the other register, told the first one that I was famous for not playing any games, which he said was pretty weird. I just stood there and looked at the two of them for a bit, and asked if they would simply ring up the purchase for me. I felt like I needed a letter from the shop's owner, who I know, allowing me to buy figures I like for a game that I don't play, so that I can use them in a game I do like.

The third 'Great Moment' came when I was standing next to the miniatures racks, and a guy shows his friend a pack of generic Sherman tanks. The friend says "We can't use those! They aren't made by the company that did the rules that we play!" These were, I gathered, not the Official, Authorized, Sanctioned Sherman tanks allowed in game play.

Scratch-building in gaming may just be extinct. I don't think I'd be allowed to use my Airfix models - let alone my Tamiya ones! - in a game, any more...:(


And people say a Cyberpunk future didn't happen;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 07:22:01 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;886020
And people say a Cyberpunk future didn't happen;)?


I think it did, from where I'm sitting...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 19, 2016, 08:27:24 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886014
The third 'Great Moment' came when I was standing next to the miniatures racks, and a guy shows his friend a pack of generic Sherman tanks. The friend says "We can't use those! They aren't made by the company that did the rules that we play!" These were, I gathered, not the Official, Authorized, Sanctioned Sherman tanks allowed in game play.


* cries *
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 19, 2016, 08:28:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886003

Stuff the damn rubber cement - remember the awful hot waxer that we had at AGI? Arneson was so happy to have it, as all the 'professionals' used one; he never touched it; I did get a lot of nice burns, though.


Aw, JEEZ, I'd forgotten about that monster!  Sarah Prince, bless her, actually could use it without total self-immolation, but it scared the whey out of me!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on March 19, 2016, 09:25:47 PM
I can understand being fussy about scale.  But the zombie consumer gamer makes me cry.  Had another kid in asking for help assembling his brand new Warhammer 40k models that he bought at another store today.  I can't even carry them because that store has an exclusive contract with Games Workshop.

And I smile and help them out because I want them to come into my store and be comfortable in my store but damnit!  Sixty bucks for a ten man, two drone, one pillbox thingie squad.

I'm despairing of the competitors ever competing though.  Warlord is damn good, they should be, they're the guys who created Warhammer and made it huge.  Beyond the Gates of Antares looks fantastic, but it's pretty rigid and non-inclusive.  I don't think you can just bring your own figures.  And while Bolt Action is one of my favorite games that's because I'm not a big World War II guy and reducing it to a minimal level of complexity permits me to focus on other things.  I have tons of Warlord and Bolt Action on my shelves and it doesn't move.  This makes me fearful of ordering their new zombie game and BtGoA.

Prodos is pretty cool but Mutant Chronicles is a three time loser already and frankly they've made some scary mistakes.  Even so, if I learned anything from the Alien Dungeon / All's Quiet on the Martian Front fiasco it's that the on-line fans will buy up my remaining stock in a frenzy if Prodos is sucked under by the Alien vs Predator kickstarter fiasco.

Mantic is very hit and miss.  Kings of War is fast and fun and has a surprising amount of depth for such a small ruleset.  But I miss the simulationist aspects of Warhammer, in particular I miss charge responses.  But I also miss the sense of detail and individual casualty removal.  I suspect one day Mantic will surpass Games Workshop solely on the strength of ideas they swiped when GW abandoned them, but a week later they'll vanish due to their first and last failed kickstarter.  Mantic's running on a kickstarter a quarter and I fear it can't end well.

Privateer Press is more anal retentive and gamist than GW and their fans hate three dimensional terrain.  Honestly the only thing that appeals to me in their entire line is the press gang set with the tramp and the sack of recruits, that's a fun diorama piece there.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 19, 2016, 09:39:27 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886014
Tell me about it. Let's face it - modeling Tekumel means that there's going to be a lot of scratch-building that's going to get done. I used to run big open games at the biggest local game shop, but there were a couple of incidents with the staff that really put me off.

One was one of the guys telling me that I needed to bring my work up to the standard of the GW 'Eavy Metal' crew, because the store wanted to use my games as a way to promote miniatures - which don't sell all that well, for them, as they are in a local market dominated by RPGs. Well, all right, I said, but you do know that the pictures you see in the GW magazines are usually by their professional and well-paid in-house crew? God as my witness, he didn't know that - he thought that it was done by 'local gamers', or something. I told them that I would be happy to paint to the GW standard, if I was getting GW rates. Never heard anything back about it.

Jackass! Even if it were done by local gamers the amount of work involved takes time, not to mention supplies. I would have said no problem, but either pay me by the hour for my painting or  I'm sending you an invoice for a cut of all sales generated from my miniatures. Wow.


Second 'Great Moment In Retailing' came when I was buying some Reaper Pathfinder figures for use as PCs in my campaign, and the nice young man behind the counter was kind enough to point out that the store was running an Officially Sanctioned And Authorized Pathfinder Tournament in the game area. I thought this was fine, but made the mistake of mentioning that I didn't play the game. The lad asked me why I was buying the miniatures, then? if I wasn't playing the game; the other bright young lad behind the counter, at the other register, told the first one that I was famous for not playing any games, which he said was pretty weird. I just stood there and looked at the two of them for a bit, and asked if they would simply ring up the purchase for me. I felt like I needed a letter from the shop's owner, who I know, allowing me to buy figures I like for a game that I don't play, so that I can use them in a game I do like.



Really? Inconceivable! Customer Disservice 101.at its best. Unfortunately this happens a lot. My buddy used to own a model shop and he couldn't figure why sales were so erratic. When he and the missus were there business was good, but when only the staff were there not so good. It turned out that his employee was spending most of his just time sitting on his ass behind the counter, and primarily getting into arguments with the customers and bad mouthing the owner.


The third 'Great Moment' came when I was standing next to the miniatures racks, and a guy shows his friend a pack of generic Sherman tanks. The friend says "We can't use those! They aren't made by the company that did the rules that we play!" These were, I gathered, not the Official, Authorized, Sanctioned Sherman tanks allowed in game play.
Scratch-building in gaming may just be extinct. I don't think I'd be allowed to use my Airfix models - let alone my Tamiya ones! - in a game, any more...:(



This is the GW brainwashing that has spilt over into other games. Let me guess were they playing Bolt Action?  All they are doing is ruining it for themselves. The sad thing is that the detail on the  Airfix, and Tamiya kits are probably a 1000 times better than the official ones. I still build the old Tamiya and Italeri armour from the 70's. They go together like a charm, are painless to put together, provide an amazing platform for super detailing should you so desire, and when done right can often even fool the so-called "experts" and "rivet counters". Like the time I entered an Italeri model kit from 1974 into a local model show and won gold. All it took was about an hour of minor corrections, a hatch here, some screens there... Nobody would believe that it was the "crumby old Italeri" until I took the turret off and showed them the company logo inside the hull. A lot of red faces and grumbles from these self important so and so's. That was the last show I ever entered. :p




Some people's kids:rolleyes: It's funny how things have changed in this and other hobbies.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on March 19, 2016, 10:08:33 PM
Warlord and Italeri have a deal and some Bolt Action stuff like stone walls and sandbags are just repackaged and repriced Italeri 1/72 stuff.  But I'll put in an argument for Bolt Action's kits, they're plain but they're gaming kits with very few pieces those lovely Airfix tanks require the assembly of individual bogeys and I'm afraid that's more effort than I want to put into a wargaming unit.  Plain kits are also easier to dress up with stowage.

Even so, I often feel the gaming industry has some ridiculous pricing expectations.  I can understand why a hand injected resin Warzone tank is a hundred bucks, but if they went to injection moulded plastic I'd be wondering why it didn't drop to 25.  If they weren't making enough of them to sustain that price and profit why did they move to plastic in the first place?

It's a problem I see across the industry.  The expectation that people will pay whatever you ask for that full color rulebook.  The cost of entry for D&D these days is absurd.  They wonder why people aren't getting into roleplaying games and assume it's because video games siphon off the customer base.  But video games only really affect the more affluent end of the customer base.

I've had a few schemes in mind over the years but with the store soaking up all my time and money they've fallen by the wayside.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 10:40:13 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886038
* cries *


Yeah. What you said. Welcome to what our hobby has become.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 10:42:25 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886039
Aw, JEEZ, I'd forgotten about that monster!  Sarah Prince, bless her, actually could use it without total self-immolation, but it scared the whey out of me!


It was very good at raising blisters, and sometimes the photo prints from the typesetting machine would stay stuck to the page. When I recovered a lot of the keylines from the wreckage of AGI, quite a few of the pages had come loose; good thing I made photocopies of everything, back in the day...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 10:45:34 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;886048
I can understand being fussy about scale.  But the zombie consumer gamer makes me cry.  Had another kid in asking for help assembling his brand new Warhammer 40k models that he bought at another store today.  I can't even carry them because that store has an exclusive contract with Games Workshop.

And I smile and help them out because I want them to come into my store and be comfortable in my store but damnit!  Sixty bucks for a ten man, two drone, one pillbox thingie squad.

I'm despairing of the competitors ever competing though.  Warlord is damn good, they should be, they're the guys who created Warhammer and made it huge.  Beyond the Gates of Antares looks fantastic, but it's pretty rigid and non-inclusive.  I don't think you can just bring your own figures.  And while Bolt Action is one of my favorite games that's because I'm not a big World War II guy and reducing it to a minimal level of complexity permits me to focus on other things.  I have tons of Warlord and Bolt Action on my shelves and it doesn't move.  This makes me fearful of ordering their new zombie game and BtGoA.

Prodos is pretty cool but Mutant Chronicles is a three time loser already and frankly they've made some scary mistakes.  Even so, if I learned anything from the Alien Dungeon / All's Quiet on the Martian Front fiasco it's that the on-line fans will buy up my remaining stock in a frenzy if Prodos is sucked under by the Alien vs Predator kickstarter fiasco.

Mantic is very hit and miss.  Kings of War is fast and fun and has a surprising amount of depth for such a small ruleset.  But I miss the simulationist aspects of Warhammer, in particular I miss charge responses.  But I also miss the sense of detail and individual casualty removal.  I suspect one day Mantic will surpass Games Workshop solely on the strength of ideas they swiped when GW abandoned them, but a week later they'll vanish due to their first and last failed kickstarter.  Mantic's running on a kickstarter a quarter and I fear it can't end well.

Privateer Press is more anal retentive and gamist than GW and their fans hate three dimensional terrain.  Honestly the only thing that appeals to me in their entire line is the press gang set with the tramp and the sack of recruits, that's a fun diorama piece there.


Agreed - that's a pretty good summary of the state of the industry at this point in time. I just keep looking on, shaking my head, and going back down into the basement.

Okay - I'm baffled. Why do PP fans hate 3-D terrain? I'm honestly curious.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 10:52:59 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886050

Jackass! Even if it were done by local gamers the amount of work involved takes time, not to mention supplies. I would have said no problem, but either pay me by the hour for my painting or I'm sending you an invoice for a cut of all sales generated from my miniatures. Wow.

Yep. Stopped running games there for quite a while, and they are now asking me to come back - it seems I'm good for over $1,500 to $2,000 in miniatures sales when I run a game...

Really? Inconceivable! Customer Disservice 101.at its best. Unfortunately this happens a lot. My buddy used to own a model shop and he couldn't figure why sales were so erratic. When he and the missus were there business was good, but when only the staff were there not so good. It turned out that his employee was spending most of his just time sitting on his ass behind the counter, and primarily getting into arguments with the customers and bad mouthing the owner.

Same here. Went into the game store that's five minutes away from my house; the guys behind the counter were on their laptops, playing an online game, and it was literally twenty minutes before one of them spoke to me - the other customers, in the back game area, didn't get any attention at all, from what I could tell. Haven't been back since, either.

This is the GW brainwashing that has spilt over into other games. Let me guess were they playing Bolt Action? All they are doing is ruining it for themselves. The sad thing is that the detail on the Airfix, and Tamiya kits are probably a 1000 times better than the official ones. I still build the old Tamiya and Italeri armour from the 70's. They go together like a charm, are painless to put together, provide an amazing platform for super detailing should you so desire, and when done right can often even fool the so-called "experts" and "rivet counters". Like the time I entered an Italeri model kit from 1974 into a local model show and won gold. All it took was about an hour of minor corrections, a hatch here, some screens there... Nobody would believe that it was the "crumby old Italeri" until I took the turret off and showed them the company logo inside the hull. A lot of red faces and grumbles from these self important so and so's. That was the last show I ever entered.

Yeah, I think so. I agree about the kits, too. Had the same thing happen to me, and I don't go to those shows anymore either.

Some people's kids:rolleyes: It's funny how things have changed in this and other hobbies.


Sigh. I'll be on the workbench, if you need me... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2016, 11:28:16 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;886057
Warlord and Italeri have a deal and some Bolt Action stuff like stone walls and sandbags are just repackaged and repriced Italeri 1/72 stuff.  But I'll put in an argument for Bolt Action's kits, they're plain but they're gaming kits with very few pieces those lovely Airfix tanks require the assembly of individual bogeys and I'm afraid that's more effort than I want to put into a wargaming unit.  Plain kits are also easier to dress up with stowage.

Even so, I often feel the gaming industry has some ridiculous pricing expectations.  I can understand why a hand injected resin Warzone tank is a hundred bucks, but if they went to injection moulded plastic I'd be wondering why it didn't drop to 25.  If they weren't making enough of them to sustain that price and profit why did they move to plastic in the first place?

It's a problem I see across the industry.  The expectation that people will pay whatever you ask for that full color rulebook.  The cost of entry for D&D these days is absurd.  They wonder why people aren't getting into roleplaying games and assume it's because video games siphon off the customer base.  But video games only really affect the more affluent end of the customer base.

I've had a few schemes in mind over the years but with the store soaking up all my time and money they've fallen by the wayside.


Agreed. The basic issue with the economics is that the game hobby is simply not large enough to give the game industry economy of scale. Trying to do injection molding is a good example of this; Lou Zocchi made money with his injection molding plant, but it was of the most basic kind. Anything more then what Lou did makes for much higher tooling costs, and that means higher retail costs unless one can sell a whole lot of units. Or one simply charges more money, in order to pay for the tooling and run time on the machines. There's a reason why the 1930's cast metal technology has survived this long...

Ditto in RPG's; high production values = more costs, so the prices go up. Anybody seen the news about the "City State of the Invincible Overlord" project?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 19, 2016, 11:30:57 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886064
Sigh. I'll be on the workbench, if you need me... :)


That's where I'm at now. The Sarku troops are coming along just fine. Went with a brown overall as a base/prime coat. Just finished the robes that they have under their armour used black and Terra cotta. I think I'll keep the armour dark brown with copper trim. Not sure what colour to do the shield's. Any suggestions?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on March 19, 2016, 11:38:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886063
Agreed - that's a pretty good summary of the state of the industry at this point in time. I just keep looking on, shaking my head, and going back down into the basement.

Okay - I'm baffled. Why do PP fans hate 3-D terrain? I'm honestly curious.


So, Warmachine's official motto is "Play like you've got a pair!"  What they mean by that is that measurement to the last sixteenth of an inch is fair game.  There's none of the give and take and "You're a grown man playing with toy soldiers so don't be a dick!" which has been GW's motto for a long time.  Heck I think they even subscribe to that now.

But in Warmachine three dimensional terrain introduces questions about line of sight because "true line of sight" isn't precise enough and "toe on" terrain hijinks so you absolutely have to be able to put a tiny bit of a miniature onto a terrain piece to indicate it has cover.

I should probably start carrying Warmachine.  The other three stores fight over it almost as hard as Magic so there's not much point financially beyond the hope of sales of other related products and pop.  I like Victorian science fiction just fine but Steam Punk goes too far for my tastes and I'm not overly fond of their miniatures or their game.

The problem with the hobby is that nobody can make a living at it.  If you get into that place where you're making a few bucks and growing you eventually hit the point where you either need to expand or give up because you can't keep up with it anymore and training someone to do what you're doing is even harder and more time consuming so all companies which are doing things right eventually have to face the reality of needing to make more money.  That's when they hit the realities of the wider market and distribution systems and they really have to grow.

The reality is that the entire market model is regressive.  Growing means dumbing down to reach a broader customer base.  Growing means critical market distinctions.  Growing means endlessly churning out more of the same because anything new has to start at square one and looks like a failure out of the gate.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 19, 2016, 11:55:50 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;886057
Warlord and Italeri have a deal and some Bolt Action stuff like stone walls and sandbags are just repackaged and repriced Italeri 1/72 stuff.  But I'll put in an argument for Bolt Action's kits, they're plain but they're gaming kits with very few pieces those lovely Airfix tanks require the assembly of individual bogeys and I'm afraid that's more effort than I want to put into a wargaming unit.  Plain kits are also easier to dress up with stowage.

Even so, I often feel the gaming industry has some ridiculous pricing expectations.  I can understand why a hand injected resin Warzone tank is a hundred bucks, but if they went to injection moulded plastic I'd be wondering why it didn't drop to 25.  If they weren't making enough of them to sustain that price and profit why did they move to plastic in the first place?

It's a problem I see across the industry.  The expectation that people will pay whatever you ask for that full color rulebook.  The cost of entry for D&D these days is absurd.  They wonder why people aren't getting into roleplaying games and assume it's because video games siphon off the customer base.  But video games only really affect the more affluent end of the customer base.

I've had a few schemes in mind over the years but with the store soaking up all my time and money they've fallen by the wayside.


Well, gaming is a luxury good, and the rule of thumb for luxury goods is "raise prices until your total revenue curve levels off."  (Oh, that Chirine and I could have done so...)  That, plus the 80/20 principle in sales ... 80 % of your sales come from 20% of your customers... will tend to continue to drive prices up until your high end customers start to drop off.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 12:11:47 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886067
That's where I'm at now. The Sarku troops are coming along just fine. Went with a brown overall as a base/prime coat. Just finished the robes that they have under their armour used black and Terra cotta. I think I'll keep the armour dark brown with copper trim. Not sure what colour to do the shield's. Any suggestions?

Shemek


Sounding really good! Some of the units have red shields, Sarku only knows why, otherwise browns with black and copper trims would be my suggestion.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 12:18:59 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;886069
So, Warmachine's official motto is "Play like you've got a pair!"  What they mean by that is that measurement to the last sixteenth of an inch is fair game.  There's none of the give and take and "You're a grown man playing with toy soldiers so don't be a dick!" which has been GW's motto for a long time.  Heck I think they even subscribe to that now.

But in Warmachine three dimensional terrain introduces questions about line of sight because "true line of sight" isn't precise enough and "toe on" terrain hijinks so you absolutely have to be able to put a tiny bit of a miniature onto a terrain piece to indicate it has cover.

I should probably start carrying Warmachine.  The other three stores fight over it almost as hard as Magic so there's not much point financially beyond the hope of sales of other related products and pop.  I like Victorian science fiction just fine but Steam Punk goes too far for my tastes and I'm not overly fond of their miniatures or their game.

The problem with the hobby is that nobody can make a living at it.  If you get into that place where you're making a few bucks and growing you eventually hit the point where you either need to expand or give up because you can't keep up with it anymore and training someone to do what you're doing is even harder and more time consuming so all companies which are doing things right eventually have to face the reality of needing to make more money.  That's when they hit the realities of the wider market and distribution systems and they really have to grow.

The reality is that the entire market model is regressive.  Growing means dumbing down to reach a broader customer base.  Growing means critical market distinctions.  Growing means endlessly churning out more of the same because anything new has to start at square one and looks like a failure out of the gate.


Yeah, I'd agree with you on the economics. All too true.

About that terrain...

Glurk. I think my brain just stopped working... Lemme hit the restart...

I read your reply, and I can vouch for what you're saying. I see a lot of this kind of gaming locally, and I simply walk away. A 1/16th measurement is simply silly, at least in the games we used to play, and we used to resolve LOS issues by just leaning over or squatting down and looking at the table. These days, simply because it's more fun, I use lovely reverse periscopes to see what my little lead troopers can see, and cheap laser pointers to see what they can hit.

I simply can't imagine that style of play. No sale for that company, here...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 12:24:27 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886072
Well, gaming is a luxury good, and the rule of thumb for luxury goods is "raise prices until your total revenue curve levels off."  (Oh, that Chirine and I could have done so...)  That, plus the 80/20 principle in sales ... 80 % of your sales come from 20% of your customers... will tend to continue to drive prices up until your high end customers start to drop off.


Well, Dave and Phil wanted low prices, so we gave them to them...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on March 20, 2016, 12:26:52 AM
It's the hard core competitive tournament mind set.  Some people are primarily concerned with whether they win or not and they want to know that if they lost it was fair.

Fair enough, I suppose.  Really, I got to watch two of the worst players around massively improve because they went to Games Workshop tournaments and saw their scores dive on grounds of painting and sportsmanship :D  You never saw such repentant sinners.

Say what you will about GW, in the late nineties to mid noughties they really pushed the hobby aspect and the playing for fun aspect and sixth edition Warhammer was heavily focused on troops and maneuver not sticking the most absurd magic item combos on characters.  It held over into mid seventh edition when most of the old guys like Priestly and Chambers moved on, then it was all just spam, spam, spamity, spam.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 20, 2016, 01:15:33 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;886078
It's the hard core competitive tournament mind set.  Some people are primarily concerned with whether they win or not and they want to know that if they lost it was fair.

Fair enough, I suppose.  Really, I got to watch two of the worst players around massively improve because they went to Games Workshop tournaments and saw their scores dive on grounds of painting and sportsmanship :D  You never saw such repentant sinners.

Say what you will about GW, in the late nineties to mid noughties they really pushed the hobby aspect and the playing for fun aspect and sixth edition Warhammer was heavily focused on troops and maneuver not sticking the most absurd magic item combos on characters.  It held over into mid seventh edition when most of the old guys like Priestly and Chambers moved on, then it was all just spam, spam, spamity, spam.


I've never played Warhamburger because the design style never appealed.

But back in the day we had our own way to deal with the worst players... "You're a buttmunch and I won't play with you."  Works.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 20, 2016, 02:42:49 PM
Well, Uncle, I agree a cyberpunk setting is what we've got today. But some people love to deny it.
I blame Shadowrun. It seems they're not going to admit it until they see elves walking the streets. Though there are people that mod their ears already...:D

Quote from: David Johansen;886078
It's the hard core competitive tournament mind set.  Some people are primarily concerned with whether they win or not and they want to know that if they lost it was fair.

When it comes to RPGs, my answer to that tends to be "we're simulating* living in a setting, and life ain't fair, deal with it". People that can't or don't want to (the latter of which I respect) are welcome to find another table.
I'm suddenly interested what would be the wargaming variant of the same statement.

*Though I seem to be considered a "narrativist" player on this board. Probably because I think some of the dreaded story-games had good ideas that work better for simulations;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on March 20, 2016, 05:20:11 PM
Well, there's dirty hippy wargames too, where you don't measure distances or movement or worse still where there's no elaborate points system to balance games out.  There's also stuff like Chaos in Cairo which comes very close to crossing the line into roleplaying.

"But how will I know if it's a fair game?" one of my young customers wailed when told that Tomorrow's War didn't use a points system.  "Some times war isn't fair," I replied.  He bought the book but never played it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 20, 2016, 05:29:08 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;886162
Well, there's dirty hippy wargames too, where you don't measure distances or movement or worse still where there's no elaborate points system to balance games out.  There's also stuff like Chaos in Cairo which comes very close to crossing the line into roleplaying.

"But how will I know if it's a fair game?" one of my young customers wailed when told that Tomorrow's War didn't use a points system.  "Some times war isn't fair," I replied.  He bought the book but never played it.


The first time I played the Fletcher Pratt Naval Wargame, Dave Arneson was the ref.

I had four British destroyers and a Destroyer Leader (a slightly glorified tin can, not even CLOSE to a light cruiser.)

The Japanese had one or two heavy cruisers, four light cruisers, and a mess of destroyers.

I won.

Because my victory conditions were "Escape mostly intact," not "sink all the enemy."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 20, 2016, 05:32:40 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886076

I read your reply, and I can vouch for what you're saying. I see a lot of this kind of gaming locally, and I simply walk away. A 1/16th measurement is simply silly, at least in the games we used to play, and we used to resolve LOS issues by just leaning over or squatting down and looking at the table. These days, simply because it's more fun, I use lovely reverse periscopes to see what my little lead troopers can see, and cheap laser pointers to see what they can hit.



But you must admit, Montressor, that there are a lot of Tin Soldier Shop types that we wouldn't play with for just that very reason.  The English Phil Barker was on a tour of various wargame venues in the US once and went to the Tin, and then up to Winnipeg.  He told my Canadian wargamer friends that "those people in Minneapolis would rather argue than play the game."

I always figured myself that if I won or lost the game because of 1/16 of an inch, I'd botched my command so badly that I deserved to be taken out and shot anyway.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 20, 2016, 06:06:01 PM
Gods of Tekumel.  On another forum I just saw this:  (bolding mine)

"For those that may be interested but missed the announcement.
http://www.choiceofgames.com/petal-throne/#utm_medium=web&utm_source=ourgames

Choice of the Petal Throne
by Danielle Goudeau

In the Empire of the Petal Throne™, will you find glory, or a knife in your back?

"Choice of the Petal Throne" is a 124,000-word interactive fantasy novel by Danielle Goudeau, where your choices control the story. It's entirely text-based--without graphics or sound effects--and fueled by the vast, unstoppable power of your imagination.

M.A.R. Barker's world of Tékumel™ is a fantasy universe like no other, where South American, Middle Eastern, and Indian cultures collide. The princes and princesses of the Tsolyáni empire vie for their father's mystical Petal Throne, tearing the nation apart with civil war and political intrigues.

As a captain in one of their armies, will you play as male or female, gay straight or bi? A brave and forthright soldier, a hedonistic intriguer with a heart of gold, or scheming double agent? "

To quote my response, who gives a fuck?

Is THAT what's happening to Phil's world?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 20, 2016, 06:22:17 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886168

Is THAT what's happening to Phil's world?

May explain why it's not as popular as it could be.
On the other hand, maybe that is what sells now.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 20, 2016, 07:02:53 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886165
The first time I played the Fletcher Pratt Naval Wargame, Dave Arneson was the ref.

I had four British destroyers and a Destroyer Leader (a slightly glorified tin can, not even CLOSE to a light cruiser.)

The Japanese had one or two heavy cruisers, four light cruisers, and a mess of destroyers.

I won.

Because my victory conditions were "Escape mostly intact," not "sink all the enemy."


Exactly! I used to love playing Panzer Leader and Panzerblitz by AH back in the 80's. I seem to remember that both games had some scenarios whose victory conditions were basically get as many guys off the board as you can. Which I would try and do, often, much to the consternation of some of  my opponents. I remember one guy dismissing the result of a game by saying the Germans would never have missed an opportunity to attack, so my refusing to engage in combat was bull, and should result in a disqualification. When I pointed out that the victory conditions didn't call for me to attack my opponent, and that this avoidance of strong points was a fundamental element of Blitzkrieg,  he simply muttered stuff under his breath and walked away. When I played war games I always played to win. I used and exploited every opportunity and piece of terrain that I could to achieve my victory. I didn't try and win by claiming a 16th, or a 64th of an inch provided complete cover, or that fragment of ink in a corner of a hex meant that the entire hex provided cover.
I remember once spending 4 turns of an 8 turn game simply moving units in such a way that they would be constantly and completely hidden behind terrain until I could develop a "schwerpunkt"  and launch my attack. This was also seen, by another player, as being a "cowardly" way to play. The fact that I ultimately pounded him and won the game was irrelevant to him. I believe he told my buddy "the Wehrmacht didn't go around cowering in the bushes". I always used to look at what the real generals did and went from there.  
I just don't get why some people even try and war game when they have this kind of "2 dimensional thinking" when developing tactics.:confused: I personally think it's largely because the notion of "trying" is seen as being as good as or better than achieving, and that this has become the mantra for a large segment of society. This is why I no longer have any interest in going to my FLGS and war gaming.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 20, 2016, 07:06:41 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;886172
May explain why it's not as popular as it could be.
On the other hand, maybe that is what sells now.
=


Political Correctness strikes again! Funny, I would have thought that Tekumel was already "inclusive" enough (to use the PC jargon). I didn't think that such things needed to be a primary selling point.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 20, 2016, 07:08:26 PM
Some people are simply shitty tacticians and try to cover it up by badmouthing the people who hand them their ass in a bucket.
Title: Lords of Tsarma
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 20, 2016, 07:15:06 PM
I am currently re-reading the Lords of Tsarma and I was wondering if any of the main characters in the novels were one time player characters? Also, did Chirine, the Glorious General, et alia, ever meet Harsan, or Trinesh, or Naru? If so, any interesting stories?
BTW, just out of curiosity why is the Glorious General referred to as being greedy in Flamesong?:hmm:

 Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 07:17:34 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;886078
It's the hard core competitive tournament mind set.  Some people are primarily concerned with whether they win or not and they want to know that if they lost it was fair.

Fair enough, I suppose.  Really, I got to watch two of the worst players around massively improve because they went to Games Workshop tournaments and saw their scores dive on grounds of painting and sportsmanship :D  You never saw such repentant sinners.

Say what you will about GW, in the late nineties to mid noughties they really pushed the hobby aspect and the playing for fun aspect and sixth edition Warhammer was heavily focused on troops and maneuver not sticking the most absurd magic item combos on characters.  It held over into mid seventh edition when most of the old guys like Priestly and Chambers moved on, then it was all just spam, spam, spamity, spam.


Amazing. This is right in line with the observations I've had at both the FLGSs I've been to and the few times I've dropped in to conventions / events. I usually stand and watch the game for a while, and eventually one of the players notices me and asks me if I play THAT PARTICULAR game / set of rules. When I say that I don't they turn right back around and ignore me from then on. It doesn't sell me on the rules, or on the miniatures.

Which is why I try to have hand-outs to give to people at all my games, and have a designated 'host' or 'hostess' - I even have hats for them to wear - to make people feel welcome. It sold a lot of lead, over the year, but these days I feel like I'm pissing in the wind.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 07:19:29 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886081
I've never played Warhamburger because the design style never appealed.

But back in the day we had our own way to deal with the worst players... "You're a buttmunch and I won't play with you."  Works.


Loved some of the figures, avoided the players screaming "WAUUUUGH!" at the table.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 20, 2016, 07:20:27 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886184
Loved some of the figures, avoided the players screaming "WAUUUUGH!" at the table.


:rotfl: No kidding!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 07:21:33 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;886140
Well, Uncle, I agree a cyberpunk setting is what we've got today. But some people love to deny it.
I blame Shadowrun. It seems they're not going to admit it until they see elves walking the streets. Though there are people that mod their ears already...:D


When it comes to RPGs, my answer to that tends to be "we're simulating* living in a setting, and life ain't fair, deal with it". People that can't or don't want to (the latter of which I respect) are welcome to find another table.
I'm suddenly interested what would be the wargaming variant of the same statement.

*Though I seem to be considered a "narrativist" player on this board. Probably because I think some of the dreaded story-games had good ideas that work better for simulations;).


All true, I think. I still don't understand this 'story-games' or 'narrativist' thing. I'm too old, probably.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 20, 2016, 07:24:29 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886168
Gods of Tekumel.  On another forum I just saw this:  (bolding mine)

"For those that may be interested but missed the announcement.
http://www.choiceofgames.com/petal-throne/#utm_medium=web&utm_source=ourgames

Choice of the Petal Throne
by Danielle Goudeau

In the Empire of the Petal Throne™, will you find glory, or a knife in your back?

"Choice of the Petal Throne" is a 124,000-word interactive fantasy novel by Danielle Goudeau, where your choices control the story. It's entirely text-based--without graphics or sound effects--and fueled by the vast, unstoppable power of your imagination.

M.A.R. Barker's world of Tékumel™ is a fantasy universe like no other, where South American, Middle Eastern, and Indian cultures collide. The princes and princesses of the Tsolyáni empire vie for their father's mystical Petal Throne, tearing the nation apart with civil war and political intrigues.

As a captain in one of their armies, will you play as male or female, gay straight or bi? A brave and forthright soldier, a hedonistic intriguer with a heart of gold, or scheming double agent? "

To quote my response, who gives a fuck?

Is THAT what's happening to Phil's world?

Even better, do Tekumeli think in such notions? Or is sexuality what you do, and not who you are?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886165
The first time I played the Fletcher Pratt Naval Wargame, Dave Arneson was the ref.

I had four British destroyers and a Destroyer Leader (a slightly glorified tin can, not even CLOSE to a light cruiser.)

The Japanese had one or two heavy cruisers, four light cruisers, and a mess of destroyers.

I won.

Because my victory conditions were "Escape mostly intact," not "sink all the enemy."

You, dirty hippy storygamer, Gronan:D!
(That's a basic tenet of storygames using the dreaded conflict resolution. I just found it funny:)).

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886178
I believe he told my buddy "the Wehrmacht didn't go around cowering in the bushes". I always used to look at what the real generals did and went from there.  
I just don't get why some people even try and war game when they have this kind of "2 dimensional thinking" when developing tactics.:confused: I personally think it's largely because the notion of "trying" is seen as being as good as or better than achieving, and that this has become the mantra for a large segment of society. This is why I no longer have any interest in going to my FLGS and war gaming.

The guy knew nothing about history, period.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886180
Some people are simply shitty tacticians and try to cover it up by badmouthing the people who hand them their ass in a bucket.

That's a thing, too;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 07:26:51 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;886162
Well, there's dirty hippy wargames too, where you don't measure distances or movement or worse still where there's no elaborate points system to balance games out.  There's also stuff like Chaos in Cairo which comes very close to crossing the line into roleplaying.

"But how will I know if it's a fair game?" one of my young customers wailed when told that Tomorrow's War didn't use a points system.  "Some times war isn't fair," I replied.  He bought the book but never played it.


Agreed. Back when I wrote "Qadardalikoi", I got a lot of grief from people who thought that I should have included a points value table so they they could use it for 'fair games' and tournaments. I strongly object to the latter; if I found out that my work was being used for one, there would be strong words exchanged.

A long time ago, and far, far away...

I was running a demo game at the first Minnesota Campaign game convention that I ran for Arneson, and the Yan Koryani were defending a walled town. The Tsolyani were attacking, and had about three times more troops then the defenders - which is considered normal. One of the YK players whined to high heaven that I wasn't being fair to him, and demanded that he get as many figures as the attackers so that the game would be a fair one. Haven't played with him since, and won't.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 07:29:27 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886165
The first time I played the Fletcher Pratt Naval Wargame, Dave Arneson was the ref.

I had four British destroyers and a Destroyer Leader (a slightly glorified tin can, not even CLOSE to a light cruiser.)

The Japanese had one or two heavy cruisers, four light cruisers, and a mess of destroyers.

I won.

Because my victory conditions were "Escape mostly intact," not "sink all the enemy."


Yep. Did the same thing at the Tin Soldier - Battle of the Java Sea, where I had the invasion convoy - and got all sorts of grief for not attacking like a real man. I pointed out that I was attacking like a real man - it was just that I had invaded Java, and that the real men no longer had a base to operate from. Lots of dead silence, after that...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 07:31:51 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886167
But you must admit, Montressor, that there are a lot of Tin Soldier Shop types that we wouldn't play with for just that very reason.  The English Phil Barker was on a tour of various wargame venues in the US once and went to the Tin, and then up to Winnipeg.  He told my Canadian wargamer friends that "those people in Minneapolis would rather argue than play the game."

I always figured myself that if I won or lost the game because of 1/16 of an inch, I'd botched my command so badly that I deserved to be taken out and shot anyway.


Oh, I agree with you. I used to run games at The Source, and gave uo on it for this very reason. A lot of the old 'Shop Rats" migrated from Lake Street to the new location, and were just as argumentative. And careless with the figures, too. We called them 'rules lawyers' back in the day... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 20, 2016, 07:40:42 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886192
Oh, I agree with you. I used to run games at The Source, and gave uo on it for this very reason. A lot of the old 'Shop Rats" migrated from Lake Street to the new location, and were just as argumentative. And careless with the figures, too. We called them 'rules lawyers' back in the day... :)


We used to use that term as well. I knew a lot of guys like that back in the day. I remember one guy who so got on my nerves that I grabbed him by the scruff of his neck and belt, and bum rushed him out of the shop, opening the front door with his head. He never bugged me again.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 07:46:03 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886168
Gods of Tekumel.  On another forum I just saw this:  (bolding mine)

"For those that may be interested but missed the announcement.
http://www.choiceofgames.com/petal-throne/#utm_medium=web&utm_source=ourgames

Choice of the Petal Throne
by Danielle Goudeau

In the Empire of the Petal Throne™, will you find glory, or a knife in your back?

"Choice of the Petal Throne" is a 124,000-word interactive fantasy novel by Danielle Goudeau, where your choices control the story. It's entirely text-based--without graphics or sound effects--and fueled by the vast, unstoppable power of your imagination.

M.A.R. Barker's world of Tékumel™ is a fantasy universe like no other, where South American, Middle Eastern, and Indian cultures collide. The princes and princesses of the Tsolyáni empire vie for their father's mystical Petal Throne, tearing the nation apart with civil war and political intrigues.

As a captain in one of their armies, will you play as male or female, gay straight or bi? A brave and forthright soldier, a hedonistic intriguer with a heart of gold, or scheming double agent? "

To quote my response, who gives a fuck?

Is THAT what's happening to Phil's world?


This is an example of why people like you are not welcome in the new Sanctioned, Authorized, and Officially Approved Tekumel; you are a cismalecaucasan, and thus guilty of all sorts of things. You need to embrace your inner LGBT self, and support the new Tekumel. I am genuinely surprised that you were allowed to run that "Legions" game, as you don't have the proper credentials for it; were you able to get some sort of dispensation to do it?

It's actually a pretty good game, if you like text-based RPGs; you pay your $5.00, and select one of the six options.

It's all part of the new LGBT Tekumel that several of the Big Wheels need to bolster their real-world political positions as LGBT activists. There's quite the competition between them to prove who's the LGBT-est of them all; see also the internal politics of North Country Gaylaxians and Wis Con.

I used to think that 'inclusveness in gaming' was what Phil did - everybody gets to play. That's no longer how the world world works, I have been assured. See also my rant on my blog:

http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/2015/11/appendix-n-torcom-and-political.html (http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/2015/11/appendix-n-torcom-and-political.html)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 07:48:34 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886179
Political Correctness strikes again! Funny, I would have thought that Tekumel was already "inclusive" enough (to use the PC jargon). I didn't think that such things needed to be a primary selling point.

Shemek


It is, I'm told. I do have to wonder what Phil would have said.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 07:49:40 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;886172
May explain why it's not as popular as it could be.
On the other hand, maybe that is what sells now.
=


He shoots! He scores!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 07:52:45 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886178
Exactly! I used to love playing Panzer Leader and Panzerblitz by AH back in the 80's. I seem to remember that both games had some scenarios whose victory conditions were basically get as many guys off the board as you can. Which I would try and do, often, much to the consternation of some of  my opponents. I remember one guy dismissing the result of a game by saying the Germans would never have missed an opportunity to attack, so my refusing to engage in combat was bull, and should result in a disqualification. When I pointed out that the victory conditions didn't call for me to attack my opponent, and that this avoidance of strong points was a fundamental element of Blitzkrieg,  he simply muttered stuff under his breath and walked away. When I played war games I always played to win. I used and exploited every opportunity and piece of terrain that I could to achieve my victory. I didn't try and win by claiming a 16th, or a 64th of an inch provided complete cover, or that fragment of ink in a corner of a hex meant that the entire hex provided cover.
I remember once spending 4 turns of an 8 turn game simply moving units in such a way that they would be constantly and completely hidden behind terrain until I could develop a "schwerpunkt"  and launch my attack. This was also seen, by another player, as being a "cowardly" way to play. The fact that I ultimately pounded him and won the game was irrelevant to him. I believe he told my buddy "the Wehrmacht didn't go around cowering in the bushes". I always used to look at what the real generals did and went from there.  
I just don't get why some people even try and war game when they have this kind of "2 dimensional thinking" when developing tactics.:confused: I personally think it's largely because the notion of "trying" is seen as being as good as or better than achieving, and that this has become the mantra for a large segment of society. This is why I no longer have any interest in going to my FLGS and war gaming.


You are in good company. The use of 'real-world' tactics has been viewed as cheating for decades. Refuse a flank? Cheating. Refuse the center? Cheating. Use the terrain? Cheating. Reading and using military history? Cheating.

Guess who doesn't game outside the basement either?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 07:54:07 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886180
Some people are simply shitty tacticians and try to cover it up by badmouthing the people who hand them their ass in a bucket.


Bring on The Holy Soup Can Award!!! :)

(In-joke in Twin Cities gaming.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 20, 2016, 07:54:41 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886200
you are in good company. The use of 'real-world' tactics has been viewed as cheating for decades. Refuse a flank? Cheating. Refuse the center? Cheating. Use the terrain? Cheating. Reading and using military history? Cheating.

Guess who doesn't game outside the basement either?


big sigh....
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 07:59:37 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886181
I am currently re-reading the Lords of Tsarma and I was wondering if any of the main characters in the novels were one time player characters? Also, did Chirine, the Glorious General, et alia, ever meet Harsan, or Trinesh, or Naru? If so, any interesting stories?
BTW, just out of curiosity why is the Glorious General referred to as being greedy in Flamesong?:hmm:

 Shemek


Generally not. We were the 'bit players' who would come on, provide comic relief, and get off stage. The PCs were not included in Phil's over-arching main plot line.

Nope. Phil kept us well away from his novels.

Phil was having a hissy fit with Gronan at the time; the Glorious General had just waxed Phil's ass at miniatures - Third Battle of Mar - and The Saintly Old Professor was pretty cheesed off. I didn't get half the grief Gronan did, and I killed three cohorts of Phil's heavy infantry by myself. Phil, I fear, assumed that we were as incompetent as his usual opponents at the Little Tin, and - it has to be said - we were anything but...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 20, 2016, 08:03:13 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886203


Phil was having a hissy fit with Gronan at the time; the Glorious General had just waxed Phil's ass at miniatures - Third Battle of Mar - and The Saintly Old Professor was pretty cheesed off. I didn't get half the grief Gronan did, and I killed three cohorts of Phil's heavy infantry by myself. Phil, I fear, assumed that we were as incompetent as his usual opponents at the Little Tin, and - it has to be said - we were anything but...


That's brilliant. I love that. Poor Glorious General. As we all know, never underestimate one's enemies.
Title: Qadardalikoi
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 20, 2016, 08:07:00 PM
Chirine,

Where can one get a copy of Qadardalikoi? Is it still in print somewhere?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 08:08:37 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;886187
Even better, do Tekumeli think in such notions? Or is sexuality what you do, and not who you are?


In Phil's Tekumel, no. You are what you are, and society respects that - it's actually formalized that way.

I had a very sad little series of incidents that killed my game group back at the turn of the year. One of my players, who is a Very Big Wheel in the local F/SF LGBT fan group, ran a couple of game sessions using the very nice murder mystery he'd written up. He, however, had made sure to include a lot of LGBT elements in the scenario, and it didn't mesh very well with the high-school-age players - if they'd all been middle-aged gay guys, they probably would have liked it more. The 13-year old girl liked it even less, and all of my warning comments to the GM got blown off - he was going to run his age-inappropriate adventure, no matter what the audience reaction was.

Later on, he brought over his new LGBT game group for a tour of the place, and everything was going quite well (I thought) until he started carrying on about how his PC had been "persecuted" for being gay. I just stood there with me mouth hanging open - I ran those same games, and nothing of the sort had happened. (I have the audio tapes, as well as my journals) He was taking this line to increase his standing with his LGBT people.

*Sigh*.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 08:10:18 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886195
We used to use that term as well. I knew a lot of guys like that back in the day. I remember one guy who so got on my nerves that I grabbed him by the scruff of his neck and belt, and bum rushed him out of the shop, opening the front door with his head. He never bugged me again.


Gods, you guys type fast!

I wish...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 20, 2016, 08:11:23 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886207
In Phil's Tekumel, no. You are what you are, and society respects that - it's actually formalized that way.

I had a very sad little series of incidents that killed my game group back at the turn of the year. One of my players, who is a Very Big Wheel in the local F/SF LGBT fan group, ran a couple of game sessions using the very nice murder mystery he'd written up. He, however, had made sure to include a lot of LGBT elements in the scenario, and it didn't mesh very well with the high-school-age players - if they'd all been middle-aged gay guys, they probably would have liked it more. The 13-year old girl liked it even less, and all of my warning comments to the GM got blown off - he was going to run his age-inappropriate adventure, no matter what the audience reaction was.

Later on, he brought over his new LGBT game group for a tour of the place, and everything was going quite well (I thought) until he started carrying on about how his PC had been "persecuted" for being gay. I just stood there with me mouth hanging open - I ran those same games, and nothing of the sort had happened. (I have the audio tapes, as well as my journals) He was taking this line to increase his standing with his LGBT people.

*Sigh*.


Chirine,

You have the patience of Job.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 08:13:23 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886205
That's brilliant. I love that. Poor Glorious General. As we all know, never underestimate one's enemies.


It was one heck of a fight; Gronan pulled it out of what phil had set up as a hopeless situation, and phil spent most of the game sitting there with his mouth hanging open at the sheer tactical brilliance of Gronan's battle.

Me, I just killed anybody who menaced our center. I has Big Boom, I does.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 08:15:28 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886206
Chirine,

Where can one get a copy of Qadardalikoi? Is it still in print somewhere?

Shemek


You might ask Carl Brodt at Tita's House of Games; he still might have a copy or two about the place. Otherwise, it's out of print. I am working on a second edition - the thing is older then my oldest daughter, for gosh sakes! If he doesnt have one, let me know; I can use playtesters.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 20, 2016, 08:18:08 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886211
You might ask Carl Brodt at Tita's House of Games; he still might have a copy or two about the place. Otherwise, it's out of print. I am working on a second edition - the thing is older then my oldest daughter, for gosh sakes! If he doesnt have one, let me know; I can use playtesters.


Will do. I'll see what he has on his site. Thank you.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 08:21:42 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886209
Chirine,

You have the patience of Job.

Shemek


Well, I wasn't going to call out the guy in front of his game group; that's just not done, at least in the Arneson-Wesley-Maker-Gaylord-etc. gaming crowd that I got started in.

I just smiled, took care of his guests for him - he left early, as he's a very busy guy - and made sure that they had a good time learning about Phil and Tekumel.

I then simply announced that guest GMs here at the house had to provide their own players, as I was spending more time and energy on the logistics that I was on the games. Solved the problem right there. The vast majority of people can't organize their way out of a paper bag.

Shrug. A lot less work and stress for me, and a lot less wear and tear on the miniatures. I play what I like, when I like, with whom I like, and I'm very happy with that state of affairs.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 08:22:30 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886212
Will do. I'll see what he has on his site. Thank you.


Sounds good! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on March 20, 2016, 08:33:08 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886200
You are in good company. The use of 'real-world' tactics has been viewed as cheating for decades. Refuse a flank? Cheating. Refuse the center? Cheating. Use the terrain? Cheating. Reading and using military history? Cheating.

Guess who doesn't game outside the basement either?


In the real world the best generals win by finding ways to cheat so I suppose it's apt.

On the other hand there are guys who come up with ways to cheat by setting the terrain up in their favor or building the scenario to cripple their opponent.  There's the story of the guy who brought a four foot long hill to his Warhammer games and placed it in his deployment zone so all his missile troops could shoot in two ranks right over his front line troops and his enemies automatically had to suffer the penalty for charging up hill.  Of course, GW being GW, they now sell terrain and you pay points to have it in your army list :D

But I think part of it is just where mainstream society has drifted to.  Kids don't just go play ball at the park anymore, they have to be organized into leagues and those are generally hyper competitive.  Then you've got the rolling backlash against any competition or grading, especially in schools.  There's also the lack of background, I sure spend a lot of time explaining that Games Workshop didn't invent miniatures games, nor indeed Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 20, 2016, 08:36:32 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;886218
In the real world the best generals win by finding ways to cheat so I suppose it's apt.

On the other hand there are guys who come up with ways to cheat by setting the terrain up in their favor or building the scenario to cripple their opponent.  There's the story of the guy who brought a four foot long hill to his Warhammer games and placed it in his deployment zone so all his missile troops could shoot in two ranks right over his front line troops and his enemies automatically had to suffer the penalty for charging up hill.  Of course, GW being GW, they now sell terrain and you pay points to have it in your army list :D

But I think part of it is just where mainstream society has drifted to.  Kids don't just go play ball at the park anymore, they have to be organized into leagues and those are generally hyper competitive.  Then you've got the rolling backlash against any competition or grading, especially in schools.  There's also the lack of background, I sure spend a lot of time explaining that Games Workshop didn't invent miniatures games, nor indeed Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs.


That's it in a nutshell. It's too bad.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 20, 2016, 08:39:42 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886211
You might ask Carl Brodt at Tita's House of Games; he still might have a copy or two about the place. Otherwise, it's out of print. I am working on a second edition - the thing is older then my oldest daughter, for gosh sakes! If he doesnt have one, let me know; I can use playtesters.


Just fired off an email to him. He has it listed on his website, but that that list is from Sept 2015 so we'll see.
BTW, what are you planning with the 2nd edition? Will it have the same basic mechanics and what not?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 20, 2016, 08:42:22 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886205
That's brilliant. I love that. Poor Glorious General. As we all know, never underestimate one's enemies.


All I wanted to do was be a  loyal soldier, serve the Imperium, and smite the perfidious Yan Koryani.  And then when I do it Phil gets his bra in a twist...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 20, 2016, 08:48:10 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886210
It was one heck of a fight; Gronan pulled it out of what phil had set up as a hopeless situation, and phil spent most of the game sitting there with his mouth hanging open at the sheer tactical brilliance of Gronan's battle.

Me, I just killed anybody who menaced our center. I has Big Boom, I does.


I said "Chrine, hold the center," and Chirine held the center.

It's nice to have a command staff you can trust.

I played in one campaign where I was the overall commander and I deliberately chose three new nervous players as my subcommanders.

We were playing Starfleet Battles.  It was a 4 scenario tourney, "win best of 4."

I simply didn't allocate any force at all to Scenario 4, figuring that would give my other 3 commanders an instant 1.3:1 advantage.

I crunched numbers mightily (Starfleet Battles is a VERY mathematically rigid game) and told my subcommanders, with great care to show why, "You will win this battle if you simply 'get close and hurt them.'  We have the shields and we have the photon torpedoes.  You WILL win."

One of the three followed my plan and waxed her opponent royally.  The other two decided they "wanted to try something more fun" and got their asses royally waxed and then handed to them in a bucket.

More than once I've thought, in a variety of games, "I wish this was a real war so I could have you taken out and shot."

Like I said, it's nice to have a command staff you can rely on.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 20, 2016, 08:52:53 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;886187
Even better, do Tekumeli think in such notions? Or is sexuality what you do, and not who you are?


More to the point, why do I as a player care?

I game to pretend-do things I can't do in real life, whether that is lead my lads bravely in the siege of Sunraya or fire up my lightsabre, Force-jump thirty feet straight up, and start lustily smiting battledroids.

Sex is something I can do in real life.

Now, COURTSHIP is interesting.  The whole "accidental seducing of Lady Nlel" is marvellous in retrospect.  But the actual sex part of it was simply assumed and not played out.  Until she told me she was expecting a Little General...

(Sadly, grad school devoured my life shortly thereafter.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 20, 2016, 08:58:04 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886227
More to the point, why do I as a player care?

I game to pretend-do things I can't do in real life, whether that is lead my lads bravely in the siege of Sunraya or fire up my lightsabre, Force-jump thirty feet straight up, and start lustily smiting battledroids.

Sex is something I can do in real life.

Now, COURTSHIP is interesting.  The whole "accidental seducing of Lady Nlel" is marvellous in retrospect.  But the actual sex part of it was simply assumed and not played out.  Until she told me she was expecting a Little General...

(Sadly, grad school devoured my life shortly thereafter.)


Did you ever get to play in Phil's game again once grad school was done, and you settled into "real life".
As an aside, what is the current situation on Tekumel. Presumably things did not come to an end with the passing of Firu BaYaker?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 20, 2016, 09:00:27 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886228
Did you ever get to play in Phil's game again once grad school was done, and you settled into "real life".


Not much, really... life takes twists and turns.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886228
As an aside, what is the current situation on Tekumel. Presumably things did not come to an end with the passing of Firu BaYaker?

Shemek


As I understand it, messy. :banghead:  I don't know a lot, though, and that's on purpose.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 20, 2016, 09:08:36 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886230
Not much, really... life takes twists and turns.



As I understand it, messy. :banghead:  I don't know a lot, though, and that's on purpose.


Sometimes ignorance is bliss.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 09:40:13 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;886218
In the real world the best generals win by finding ways to cheat so I suppose it's apt.

On the other hand there are guys who come up with ways to cheat by setting the terrain up in their favor or building the scenario to cripple their opponent.  There's the story of the guy who brought a four foot long hill to his Warhammer games and placed it in his deployment zone so all his missile troops could shoot in two ranks right over his front line troops and his enemies automatically had to suffer the penalty for charging up hill.  Of course, GW being GW, they now sell terrain and you pay points to have it in your army list :D

But I think part of it is just where mainstream society has drifted to.  Kids don't just go play ball at the park anymore, they have to be organized into leagues and those are generally hyper competitive.  Then you've got the rolling backlash against any competition or grading, especially in schools.  There's also the lack of background, I sure spend a lot of time explaining that Games Workshop didn't invent miniatures games, nor indeed Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs.


Agreed! Somebody once said that the side that wins is the one that makes the least number of mistakes.

Liked the story about the guy with his own personal hill. I've gotten my ass chewed out by people who tell me that my battlefields are 'unrealistic' and 'don't follow the rules'. So, I pull out the map I used; the looks on their faces when they realize we're fighting in places like Hastings or Arsuf are priceless - assuming, of course, that they have heard of Harold of Wessex or Richard the Lion-heart. Quite often, they haven't. :eek:

And yes, I've seen this myself. The kids are usually miserable, and the parents get pretty rabid. A couple of my cousins are teachers, and they won't go anywhere near these kinds of things after a teacher was assaulted by a parent.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 09:48:20 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886221
Just fired off an email to him. He has it listed on his website, but that that list is from Sept 2015 so we'll see.
BTW, what are you planning with the 2nd edition? Will it have the same basic mechanics and what not?


Great! He's a pretty darn decent guy.

The second edition will mostly update the technology of gaming; we've come a long way since then. The basic game mechanics and stats will all stay the same - this new edition will be fully backwards compatible to the original. I am putting in a new armor class, though; back in the day, almost all our battles were inside the Five Empires, armored troops against armored troops. Later on, in Phil's campaign, we started doing a lot more 'frontier' battles, and I need to allow for this in the new rules.

Newer and better naval rules, newer and better siege rules; these were pretty sketchy in the original, as we didn't do much of that and it was sort of assumed that the referee would be able to make snap decisions in game play. We tended to play these kinds of games more as RPGs, actually.

For me, the biggest thing is that with the 'new' publishing technology, I can illustrate the rules with color photos - something we could only dream of, back in Ye Olden Dayes. And all the new figures too! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 09:50:22 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886222
All I wanted to do was be a  loyal soldier, serve the Imperium, and smite the perfidious Yan Koryani.  And then when I do it Phil gets his bra in a twist...


Oh, he was cranky! You turned a sure thing into a rout. He was grumpy for weeks - about the way he usually was when his beloved New Kingdom Egyptians got thrashed by anybody in any sort of armor...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 09:52:47 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886226
I said "Chrine, hold the center," and Chirine held the center.

It's nice to have a command staff you can trust.

I played in one campaign where I was the overall commander and I deliberately chose three new nervous players as my subcommanders.

We were playing Starfleet Battles.  It was a 4 scenario tourney, "win best of 4."

I simply didn't allocate any force at all to Scenario 4, figuring that would give my other 3 commanders an instant 1.3:1 advantage.

I crunched numbers mightily (Starfleet Battles is a VERY mathematically rigid game) and told my subcommanders, with great care to show why, "You will win this battle if you simply 'get close and hurt them.'  We have the shields and we have the photon torpedoes.  You WILL win."

One of the three followed my plan and waxed her opponent royally.  The other two decided they "wanted to try something more fun" and got their asses royally waxed and then handed to them in a bucket.

More than once I've thought, in a variety of games, "I wish this was a real war so I could have you taken out and shot."

Like I said, it's nice to have a command staff you can rely on.


Thank you, Glorious General! It did get a little lonely out there, but that's why I'm a ranking military magic user. The looks on the faces of the surviving Vridu troops after I vaporized their buddies was worth it.

Ah, those were the days...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 09:54:19 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886227
More to the point, why do I as a player care?

I game to pretend-do things I can't do in real life, whether that is lead my lads bravely in the siege of Sunraya or fire up my lightsabre, Force-jump thirty feet straight up, and start lustily smiting battledroids.

Sex is something I can do in real life.

Now, COURTSHIP is interesting.  The whole "accidental seducing of Lady Nlel" is marvellous in retrospect.  But the actual sex part of it was simply assumed and not played out.  Until she told me she was expecting a Little General...

(Sadly, grad school devoured my life shortly thereafter.)


Exactly. We're here to adventure, thank you. "Action! Adventure! Romance!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 10:04:38 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886232
Sometimes ignorance is bliss.


Well, funny you should ask about this. Today is the first of the new year: One Hasanpor, of the year 2,395 A. S. in the Long Count Of Years that Phil kept. (The game year / date varies by campaign, of course.)

The Tsolyani Civil War is over, and the Five Empires are all trying to figure out what to do next. There's a lot of messy loose ends leftover from the 2370s and 2380s, and player-characters will have to be hired in droves to clean it all up.

Firu ba Yeker may be gone, but the game continues.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: SapaInca on March 20, 2016, 10:10:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886189
One of the YK players whined to high heaven that I wasn't being fair to him, and demanded that he get as many figures as the attackers so that the game would be a fair one. Haven't played with him since, and won't.


I wonder if he would refuse to play chess with the black pieces :)

Also, a question: have you seen someone foolish enough to summon Demons? If so, what was it like? More specifically, was it always a lenghty process (as I assume it is to summon the more powerful demons, as described in the Book of Ebon Bindings), or a sorcerer could do it in the heat of battle?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2016, 11:04:18 PM
Quote from: SapaInca;886248
I wonder if he would refuse to play chess with the black pieces :)

Also, a question: have you seen someone foolish enough to summon Demons? If so, what was it like? More specifically, was it always a lenghty process (as I assume it is to summon the more powerful demons, as described in the Book of Ebon Bindings), or a sorcerer could do it in the heat of battle?


No idea; I didn't game with him, after that incident.

Yes. Eyloa, the Livyani wizard and perpetual menace to navigation, did it all the time in the early days of Phil's campaign when you simply picked the spell / skill from the list and just rolled dice to see who or what showed up. At that point, you just rolled. Phil did "Ebon Bindings" to try to rein him in, as it simply got silly; he'd summon demons like we'd change our underwear, and for the most trivial reasons. It did get him into a lot of trouble, both with the demons and with any interested bystanders.

After Phil did "Ebon Bindings", we all stayed well away from summoning demons as a general practice - it was just too risky and dangerous. Didn't stop Elyoa, and we got a lot of laughs - from a safe distance, of course.

Summoning a demon during a battle was tried (by Guess Who?) exactly once, during the battle for Jumre's Ladder. It didn't work, in very spectacular fashon, and nobody ever tried it again. It's too much ritual, too much stuff, and the enemy light infantry has a great time killing the sorcerer while they're doing all the dancing around. It just doesn't work, at least the way Phil played it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 21, 2016, 08:50:02 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886186
All true, I think. I still don't understand this 'story-games' or 'narrativist' thing. I'm too old, probably.

It's not worth the bother. And even if you did understand it, someone will tell you you understand it wrong:).
Save your time for better things. I can list few things less useful for one's enjoyment, so you have quite the choice...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;886191
Yep. Did the same thing at the Tin Soldier - Battle of the Java Sea, where I had the invasion convoy - and got all sorts of grief for not attacking like a real man. I pointed out that I was attacking like a real man - it was just that I had invaded Java, and that the real men no longer had a base to operate from. Lots of dead silence, after that...

"I won because you're acting like a stereotype instead of like a human - since humans have brains" usually gets that reaction:p.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886195
We used to use that term as well. I knew a lot of guys like that back in the day. I remember one guy who so got on my nerves that I grabbed him by the scruff of his neck and belt, and bum rushed him out of the shop, opening the front door with his head. He never bugged me again.

Well, I think you shopuld have opened the door first...but I can understand the frustration:D.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;886200
You are in good company. The use of 'real-world' tactics has been viewed as cheating for decades. Refuse a flank? Cheating. Refuse the center? Cheating. Use the terrain? Cheating. Reading and using military history? Cheating.

Guess who doesn't game outside the basement either?

I need to add "cheater" in my title, then.
Last year, when we were playing a game based on "Romance of Three Kingdoms" - read "lots of army action against religious fanatics" - my xiongnu diplomat got bored. And he went to show some of his immediate diplomacy to a reinforced place we had to take.
Day first, nothing. Night first, they lost exactly one guy, and got a new recruit disguised as him.
Day second, third, and fourth, information gathering, silence.
Night fifth, Mao Tun weakens the wooden constructions they used to protect their front ranks from the stones our machines were lobbing at them. The things suddenly giving probably didn't have their morale.
Night sixth, Mao Tun attacks their food supply. After slaying the guards with surprise and overwhelming skill, he set fire on it and jumped out through a window. People tried to rush and save the food, but alas, the guards seemed to have blocked the doors...
(At least I gave the poor guys such a funeral pyre, the Gods of Cooking were sure to have admitted them in Chinese Heavens!)
That, however, managed to lower the spirit of the fanatics, and we managed to rout them.

Later on, we needed a guy on our own side removed. That was achieved, and the best part? They accused his doctor, who wasn't part of the plot!

So yeah, call me on when there's cheating to be done...;)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;886207
In Phil's Tekumel, no. You are what you are, and society respects that - it's actually formalized that way.

Then why...oh right, for self-promotion. Gotcha.
I think we've heard about this guy in the thread already. Is this the "bisexual people of colour only" guy?

Quote
I had a very sad little series of incidents that killed my game group back at the turn of the year. One of my players, who is a Very Big Wheel in the local F/SF LGBT fan group, ran a couple of game sessions using the very nice murder mystery he'd written up. He, however, had made sure to include a lot of LGBT elements in the scenario, and it didn't mesh very well with the high-school-age players - if they'd all been middle-aged gay guys, they probably would have liked it more. The 13-year old girl liked it even less, and all of my warning comments to the GM got blown off - he was going to run his age-inappropriate adventure, no matter what the audience reaction was.

...LGBT relationships are a thing in settings I run, because really, I'm sure we can all name rulers that were LGBT. But there's also a "16+" age requirement for getting into my groups, and most of the time, I insist on prospective players being 18+ instead.
Presenting any sexual materials to a 13 yo player might well get you bashed by a parent, around here.

Quote
Later on, he brought over his new LGBT game group for a tour of the place, and everything was going quite well (I thought) until he started carrying on about how his PC had been "persecuted" for being gay. I just stood there with me mouth hanging open - I ran those same games, and nothing of the sort had happened. (I have the audio tapes, as well as my journals) He was taking this line to increase his standing with his LGBT people.

*Sigh*.

Why didn't you ask him politely something like "which group was that? Because I'm sure it wasn't in any game I ran, and Phil didn't include such elements in Tekumel"?

I admit it, I would have done that.
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886208
Gods, you guys type fast!

I wish...

We simply outnumber you. Karakan and Vimuhla both favour the bigger legions, most of the time...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;886210
It was one heck of a fight; Gronan pulled it out of what phil had set up as a hopeless situation, and phil spent most of the game sitting there with his mouth hanging open at the sheer tactical brilliance of Gronan's battle.

Me, I just killed anybody who menaced our center. I has Big Boom, I does.

It was probably worth seeing, then!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;886214
Well, I wasn't going to call out the guy in front of his game group; that's just not done, at least in the Arneson-Wesley-Maker-Gaylord-etc. gaming crowd that I got started in.

Different expectations, I see.

Quote
I just smiled, took care of his guests for him - he left early, as he's a very busy guy - and made sure that they had a good time learning about Phil and Tekumel.

I then simply announced that guest GMs here at the house had to provide their own players, as I was spending more time and energy on the logistics that I was on the games. Solved the problem right there. The vast majority of people can't organize their way out of a paper bag.

I admit, that was sneakier. Bonus points if you also mentioned that LGBT discrimination isn't part of the setting as conceived by MAR Barker.

Quote
Shrug. A lot less work and stress for me, and a lot less wear and tear on the miniatures. I play what I like, when I like, with whom I like, and I'm very happy with that state of affairs.

"That is good! That is good!"
/Warlord from Conan movie.

Quote from: David Johansen;886218
In the real world the best generals win by finding ways to cheat so I suppose it's apt.

Indeed.

Quote
On the other hand there are guys who come up with ways to cheat by setting the terrain up in their favor or building the scenario to cripple their opponent.  There's the story of the guy who brought a four foot long hill to his Warhammer games and placed it in his deployment zone so all his missile troops could shoot in two ranks right over his front line troops and his enemies automatically had to suffer the penalty for charging up hill.  Of course, GW being GW, they now sell terrain and you pay points to have it in your army list

Well, "you are the defenders, but get 3 times less forces" leads to the same result, right?

Quote
But I think part of it is just where mainstream society has drifted to.  Kids don't just go play ball at the park anymore, they have to be organized into leagues and those are generally hyper competitive.  Then you've got the rolling backlash against any competition or grading, especially in schools.  There's also the lack of background, I sure spend a lot of time explaining that Games Workshop didn't invent miniatures games, nor indeed Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs.

The lack of background is a problem even with adults, alas.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886222
All I wanted to do was be a  loyal soldier, serve the Imperium, and smite the perfidious Yan Koryani.  And then when I do it Phil gets his bra in a twist...

So you got the same prize as most loyal soldiers that served the Imperium?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886226
I said "Chrine, hold the center," and Chirine held the center.

It's nice to have a command staff you can trust.

I played in one campaign where I was the overall commander and I deliberately chose three new nervous players as my subcommanders.

We were playing Starfleet Battles.  It was a 4 scenario tourney, "win best of 4."

I simply didn't allocate any force at all to Scenario 4, figuring that would give my other 3 commanders an instant 1.3:1 advantage.

I crunched numbers mightily (Starfleet Battles is a VERY mathematically rigid game) and told my subcommanders, with great care to show why, "You will win this battle if you simply 'get close and hurt them.'  We have the shields and we have the photon torpedoes.  You WILL win."

One of the three followed my plan and waxed her opponent royally.  The other two decided they "wanted to try something more fun" and got their asses royally waxed and then handed to them in a bucket.

More than once I've thought, in a variety of games, "I wish this was a real war so I could have you taken out and shot."

Like I said, it's nice to have a command staff you can rely on.

I'm ahead of you. I did try to hang other PCs for insubordination!
The GM didn't allow it, but I tried...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886227
More to the point, why do I as a player care?

I game to pretend-do things I can't do in real life, whether that is lead my lads bravely in the siege of Sunraya or fire up my lightsabre, Force-jump thirty feet straight up, and start lustily smiting battledroids.

Sex is something I can do in real life.

Now, COURTSHIP is interesting.  The whole "accidental seducing of Lady Nlel" is marvellous in retrospect.  But the actual sex part of it was simply assumed and not played out.  Until she told me she was expecting a Little General...

(Sadly, grad school devoured my life shortly thereafter.)

Well, I've always assumed it's about the courtship, when I say "romance". Or to quote a Referee I deeply respect and trust (myself:p!), "in the game, it's about how you get (or not) in bed and what you do to achieve that. If you want to roleplay what you do after that, I'm not against that, but I'd advise you to do so in private, or the other players might start looking at you funny".

Never had a problem with people being unable to follow;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;886239

And yes, I've seen this myself. The kids are usually miserable, and the parents get pretty rabid. A couple of my cousins are teachers, and they won't go anywhere near these kinds of things after a teacher was assaulted by a parent.

I really hope the parent got his ass handed to him.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;886242
Great! He's a pretty darn decent guy.

The second edition will mostly update the technology of gaming; we've come a long way since then. The basic game mechanics and stats will all stay the same - this new edition will be fully backwards compatible to the original. I am putting in a new armor class, though; back in the day, almost all our battles were inside the Five Empires, armored troops against armored troops. Later on, in Phil's campaign, we started doing a lot more 'frontier' battles, and I need to allow for this in the new rules.

Newer and better naval rules, newer and better siege rules; these were pretty sketchy in the original, as we didn't do much of that and it was sort of assumed that the referee would be able to make snap decisions in game play. We tended to play these kinds of games more as RPGs, actually.

For me, the biggest thing is that with the 'new' publishing technology, I can illustrate the rules with color photos - something we could only dream of, back in Ye Olden Dayes. And all the new figures too! :)

OK, now I have a question. How does one get a hold of those rules;)?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;886243
Oh, he was cranky! You turned a sure thing into a rout. He was grumpy for weeks - about the way he usually was when his beloved New Kingdom Egyptians got thrashed by anybody in any sort of armor...

Did that happen often?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;886245
Exactly. We're here to adventure, thank you. "Action! Adventure! Romance!"

"And a hard-boiled egg!"

Quote from: chirine ba kal;886253
Yes. Eyloa, the Livyani wizard and perpetual menace to navigation, did it all the time in the early days of Phil's campaign when you simply picked the spell / skill from the list and just rolled dice to see who or what showed up. At that point, you just rolled. Phil did "Ebon Bindings" to try to rein him in, as it simply got silly; he'd summon demons like we'd change our underwear, and for the most trivial reasons. It did get him into a lot of trouble, both with the demons and with any interested bystanders.

How did he even survive? I mean, you summon a demon without having prepared anything to pay for his services, you might reach for the character generation rules!

Quote
After Phil did "Ebon Bindings", we all stayed well away from summoning demons as a general practice - it was just too risky and dangerous. Didn't stop Elyoa, and we got a lot of laughs - from a safe distance, of course.

I bet you did. I've got players like this, it never gets old, especially if the Referee is like those guys mentioned in Harn. "It has been observed that there is a slight streak of sadism in some GMs", or something like this. I'm quoting from memory here, but the observation is valid;).

I like multi-quote posts.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 21, 2016, 12:54:56 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;886302



Well, I think you should have opened the door first...but I can understand the frustration:D.




Well I did open the door first, by using his head. Theoretically I could have thrown him through the door, but that wouldn't have ended good for me or him. ;)
Besides, as we say in the old country: "Tој беше голем будала" :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 21, 2016, 01:56:08 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886348
Well I did open the door first, by using his head. Theoretically I could have thrown him through the door, but that wouldn't have ended good for me or him. ;)
Besides, as we say in the old country: "Tој беше голем будала" :D

:D
Sounds better. Not much better, but slightly better.

And as we say in a neighbouring country, "Глупаците требе да се бият, докато поумнеят;)!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 21, 2016, 02:34:28 PM
From AsenRG: It's not worth the bother. And even if you did understand it, someone will tell you you understand it wrong:).
Save your time for better things. I can list few things less useful for one's enjoyment, so you have quite the choice...


Agreed. We just got out there and played. These days, there seems to be so much 'baggage' involved.

"I won because you're acting like a stereotype instead of like a human - since humans have brains" usually gets that reaction:p.

Agreed. I've had a pretty good time in gaming, over the years, and I treasure the good games. I would be less then honest if I didn't admit that there have been some pretty bad ones, some right here in the game room.

I need to add "cheater" in my title, then.

Great story - reads like an account of some feudal Japanese epic! :)

Then why...oh right, for self-promotion. Gotcha.
I think we've heard about this guy in the thread already. Is this the "bisexual people of colour only" guy?


Yep. One gay friend of mine who knows all about the situation has described it all as being just like gay bath-house politics from the West Coast. I have to agree.

...LGBT relationships are a thing in settings I run, because really, I'm sure we can all name rulers that were LGBT. But there's also a "16+" age requirement for getting into my groups, and most of the time, I insist on prospective players being 18+ instead.
Presenting any sexual materials to a 13 yo player might well get you bashed by a parent, around here.


I have no issues with LGBT relationships; two of my numerous daughters are LGBT activists with Amnesty International. The guest GM had known in advance - he'd been e-mailed before the game - that we would be having the young lady as a player, and it got blown off. She got handled one of his pre-gen PC sheets that she was very uncomfortable with, and he blew her off; he was going to play his adventure as he'd written it, no matter what anyone thought. (He dad was also there, I should add, so we were legal under local laws.) I felt that the material being presented was age-inappropriate, but I got blown off as well even after I discussed it with the GM.

So, now I also have an '18+' rule.

It also may not have helped that the guest GM was also one of those GMs where unless and until the party generates the exact specific response needed by the written adventure, the game stalls until they do and the party can't advance to the next paragraph of the adventure. Basically, the GM would read the text, then sit back and wait until the players had guessed the correct response. One of the players, an old friend of the GM, actually fell asleep during the game session.

It was everything I don't like in gaming, all rolled into one.

Why didn't you ask him politely something like "which group was that? Because I'm sure it wasn't in any game I ran, and Phil didn't include such elements in Tekumel"?

Because I was standing there with my mouth hanging open in astonishment at the sheer effrontery of it all.

I admit it, I would have done that.

 I just gave up, myself. I've had over thirty-five years of this sort of thing happen to me, and I'm told that I should just shut up and sit down.

I admit, that was sneakier. Bonus points if you also mentioned that LGBT discrimination isn't part of the setting as conceived by MAR Barker.

I did, several times during the visit, and that's when he started in on his tale of brutal repression. I was not following the current party line, or being a good supporter of his political position.

I really hope the parent got his ass handed to him.

Nope. It was all hushed up, and the teacher told not to say anything. The local police, had other ideas, though; one of the other parents reported it. The offender got fined and a restraining order.

OK, now I have a question. How does one get a hold of those rules;)?

If carl doesn't have a set, let me know. I have spares. Or I can scan it for you, what with you being in foreign parts and all that... (I do own the thing, the Copyright Office says; Phil did the paperwork himself...)

How did he even survive? I mean, you summon a demon without having prepared anything to pay for his services, you might reach for the character generation rules!

No idea. The player involved could talk a duck off a lake, though.

I bet you did. I've got players like this, it never gets old, especially if the Referee is like those guys mentioned in Harn. "It has been observed that there is a slight streak of sadism in some GMs", or something like this. I'm quoting from memory here, but the observation is valid;).

I'd agree with that!!! Eyloa was a never-ending source of laughs... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 21, 2016, 04:05:11 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886376
From AsenRG: It's not worth the bother. And even if you did understand it, someone will tell you you understand it wrong:).
Save your time for better things. I can list few things less useful for one's enjoyment, so you have quite the choice...


Agreed. We just got out there and played. These days, there seems to be so much 'baggage' involved.

The players brought it:).

Quote
"I won because you're acting like a stereotype instead of like a human - since humans have brains" usually gets that reaction:p.

Agreed. I've had a pretty good time in gaming, over the years, and I treasure the good games. I would be less then honest if I didn't admit that there have been some pretty bad ones, some right here in the game room.

Well, I'd rank "showing people a variant of a famous WWII strategy" as being a good game. Too bad the players didn't get it in time, but you did effectively bypass and encircle him, didn't you:D?

Quote
I need to add "cheater" in my title, then.

Great story - reads like an account of some feudal Japanese epic! :)

It was somewhat inspired by Chapter 13 of a famous book.

Quote
Then why...oh right, for self-promotion. Gotcha.
I think we've heard about this guy in the thread already. Is this the "bisexual people of colour only" guy?


Yep. One gay friend of mine who knows all about the situation has described it all as being just like gay bath-house politics from the West Coast. I have to agree.

Your friend has a sense of gallows humour, or it's really bad.
Or both.

Quote
...LGBT relationships are a thing in settings I run, because really, I'm sure we can all name rulers that were LGBT. But there's also a "16+" age requirement for getting into my groups, and most of the time, I insist on prospective players being 18+ instead.
Presenting any sexual materials to a 13 yo player might well get you bashed by a parent, around here.


I have no issues with LGBT relationships; two of my numerous daughters are LGBT activists with Amnesty International. The guest GM had known in advance - he'd been e-mailed before the game - that we would be having the young lady as a player, and it got blown off. She got handled one of his pre-gen PC sheets that she was very uncomfortable with, and he blew her off; he was going to play his adventure as he'd written it, no matter what anyone thought. (He dad was also there, I should add, so we were legal under local laws.) I felt that the material being presented was age-inappropriate, but I got blown off as well even after I discussed it with the GM.

So, now I also have an '18+' rule.

Ahem, I didn't mean I wouldn't present 18- players with LGBT materials. I wouldn't present them with much material involving any adult relationships, hetero or not - unless I knew them in person.

Quote
It also may not have helped that the guest GM was also one of those GMs where unless and until the party generates the exact specific response needed by the written adventure, the game stalls until they do and the party can't advance to the next paragraph of the adventure. Basically, the GM would read the text, then sit back and wait until the players had guessed the correct response. One of the players, an old friend of the GM, actually fell asleep during the game session.

It was everything I don't like in gaming, all rolled into one.

I call those GMs simply "bad";).

Quote
Why didn't you ask him politely something like "which group was that? Because I'm sure it wasn't in any game I ran, and Phil didn't include such elements in Tekumel"?

Because I was standing there with my mouth hanging open in astonishment at the sheer effrontery of it all.

:D
OK, I can understand that.

Quote
I admit it, I would have done that.

 I just gave up, myself. I've had over thirty-five years of this sort of thing happen to me, and I'm told that I should just shut up and sit down.

It's better for the nerves when you do, indeed. I tend to skip it more and more often, myself.

Quote
I admit, that was sneakier. Bonus points if you also mentioned that LGBT discrimination isn't part of the setting as conceived by MAR Barker.

I did, several times during the visit, and that's when he started in on his tale of brutal repression. I was not following the current party line, or being a good supporter of his political position.

"Get your politics out of my gaming" seems to be gaining momentum as a slogan.

Quote
I really hope the parent got his ass handed to him.

Nope. It was all hushed up, and the teacher told not to say anything. The local police, had other ideas, though; one of the other parents reported it. The offender got fined and a restraining order.

Well, it's better than nothing.

Quote
OK, now I have a question. How does one get a hold of those rules;)?

If carl doesn't have a set, let me know. I have spares. Or I can scan it for you, what with you being in foreign parts and all that... (I do own the thing, the Copyright Office says; Phil did the paperwork himself...)

Ahem, I was talking about the new edition. Would Carl (of Tita's HoG, I guess) have copies of that?

Quote
How did he even survive? I mean, you summon a demon without having prepared anything to pay for his services, you might reach for the character generation rules!

No idea. The player involved could talk a duck off a lake, though.

That was probably entertaining, then.

Quote
I bet you did. I've got players like this, it never gets old, especially if the Referee is like those guys mentioned in Harn. "It has been observed that there is a slight streak of sadism in some GMs", or something like this. I'm quoting from memory here, but the observation is valid;).

I'd agree with that!!! Eyloa was a never-ending source of laughs... :)

Isn't this Blue Fish guy? Yeah, he does sound funny!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 21, 2016, 04:07:58 PM
When Eyola was on, he could be immensely entertaining.

The player playing him could be rather a pill.  "Roleplaying is a NARTFORM!"
Title: Reading Material
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 21, 2016, 06:08:35 PM
Just as an FYI, I'm currently reading Britain's Forgotten Wars: Colonial Campaigns of the 19th Century by Ian Hernon. Some really good motifs that could be used in long term games. Just replace GB with Tsolyanu and you're on your way. The Campaigns and maps are perfect resources for use in games.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on March 21, 2016, 10:56:42 PM
You guys have been busy typing.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;885872
Hey - maybe I should do a paint chart or something, that gives phil's old coors and the modern paints that match them... ?
That would be a very useful resource. You should add that as a page or something on your blog.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;885881
I have a huge backlog of stuff to do; would there be any interest in my commenting on useful figures for Tekumel someplace?
And this also.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;886189
I was running a demo game at the first Minnesota Campaign game convention that I ran for Arneson, and the Yan Koryani were defending a walled town. The Tsolyani were attacking, and had about three times more troops then the defenders - which is considered normal. One of the YK players whined to high heaven that I wasn't being fair to him, and demanded that he get as many figures as the attackers so that the game would be a fair one. Haven't played with him since, and won't.
Makes one wonder if these guys are aware that there's this game called Chess...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;886200
You are in good company. The use of 'real-world' tactics has been viewed as cheating for decades. Refuse a flank? Cheating. Refuse the center? Cheating. Use the terrain? Cheating. Reading and using military history? Cheating.

Guess who doesn't game outside the basement either?
More than a couple of real world generals have tried to rationalize losing a battle due to the ignoble and dishonorable tactics employed by of their enemies. So in that sense the whiners are doing a first class job roleplaying a dumb general in defeat. Extra XPs for the dumb general.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886226
More than once I've thought, in a variety of games, "I wish this was a real war so I could have you taken out and shot."
One of the first things we learned in business school was that “fire all the incompetent managers” was not allowed as a case study  solution. Near as I can tell from history, commanders were seldom allowed to have all the incompetent commanders taken out and shot. In unstable regimes, too much military competence could be grounds for a general's execution.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 21, 2016, 11:06:19 PM
Well then how about "I wish this were a real war so the enemy would do me the courtesy of doing away with you."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on March 21, 2016, 11:27:04 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886467
Well then how about "I wish this were a real war so the enemy would do me the courtesy of doing away with you."

That was one virtue of the lead from the front style of warfare practiced by a lot of the Classical Greek city states and by Philip and Alexander of Macedon. There was a decent chance that any dumb general was in the front rank of the phalanx or the point of a cavalry wedge and so would get croaked in any given disaster he authored.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 22, 2016, 02:01:08 AM
For Asen:

Yeah, Eyloa was the one who got turned into a blue fish by Lord Fu Shi. We all laughed. I scooped him up and put him my helmet with some water, and eventually got him a nice glass fishbowl. Carried it around for ages, until we got him turned back.

Understood about the 18+ rule. I like to ask players what their 'hot buttons' might be, and I try really hard to avoid them. In this case, the guest GM didn't even try.

I also didn't clarify why Phil's beloved Egyptians were such a weak army, sorry. They are basically guys in a loincloth with stone clubs, pointy sticks, and shields. The chariots are nice, but are pretty much very mobile archers, and the same ground that favors them is a real disadvantage for the infantry, Up against local tribes, they're great, or in a defensive position. As an offensive force, they usually get hammered by anybody in any kind of armor, and tend to head back to the Nile at top speed.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 22, 2016, 02:03:30 AM
For Bren:

Yeah, ok, I can do this; it's a matter of gathering my scattered notes that I've done over the years. I'll have to update the miniatures list, as several of the companies have stopped trading sine I first did the list about a decade ago.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 22, 2016, 02:04:37 AM
For Asen:

I'll send you a copy of the draft - Carl is no longer publishing Tekumel materials, but he is selling off the old stock.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on March 22, 2016, 02:33:11 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886532
For Bren:

Yeah, ok, I can do this; it's a matter of gathering my scattered notes that I've done over the years. I'll have to update the miniatures list, as several of the companies have stopped trading sine I first did the list about a decade ago.
Hey, we aren't paying you. So SOP for pretty much all of your work on Tekumel ever. ;) So don't kill yourself.* Do it when and as it entertains you.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;886530
I also didn't clarify why Phil's beloved Egyptians were such a weak army...
Five millennium ago or so ago chariot archers were a cutting edge and revolutionary combat system. They widely kicked the ass of pre-chariot forces. One of my regrets in RPG gaming is the dearth of true Bronze Age settings with actual chariot battles.



* And just for Gronan, "Yes literally."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 22, 2016, 03:39:44 AM
Quote from: Bren;886537
Hey, we aren't paying you. So SOP for pretty much all of your work on Tekumel ever. ;) So don't kill yourself.* Do it when and as it entertains you.

Five millennium ago or so ago chariot archers were a cutting edge and revolutionary combat system. They widely kicked the ass of pre-chariot forces. One of my regrets in RPG gaming is the dearth of true Bronze Age settings with actual chariot battles.

* And just for Gronan, "Yes literally."


I will do what I an, when I can... :)

Agreed; if Phil had been up against the Egyptian's historical foes, he would have been just fine. But, those were the days of WRG 6th and lots of historical mismatches; everybody else had Assyrians, Greek hoplites, or - to Phil's disgust - Roman Imperials. Phil's guys just couldn't stand up to them, sorry to say.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 22, 2016, 09:30:39 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886530
For Asen:

Yeah, Eyloa was the one who got turned into a blue fish by Lord Fu Shi. We all laughed. I scooped him up and put him my helmet with some water, and eventually got him a nice glass fishbowl. Carried it around for ages, until we got him turned back.

Understood about the 18+ rule. I like to ask players what their 'hot buttons' might be, and I try really hard to avoid them. In this case, the guest GM didn't even try.

I prefer to ask what their "hot buttons" are, but people with too many of those are simply not a good fit for the group. Luckily, I haven't met many people that have that problem.

Quote
I also didn't clarify why Phil's beloved Egyptians were such a weak army, sorry. They are basically guys in a loincloth with stone clubs, pointy sticks, and shields. The chariots are nice, but are pretty much very mobile archers, and the same ground that favors them is a real disadvantage for the infantry, Up against local tribes, they're great, or in a defensive position. As an offensive force, they usually get hammered by anybody in any kind of armor, and tend to head back to the Nile at top speed.

Ouch. Didn't he have Egyptian Archers? A detachment of Nubians behind the spearmen might have helped:).
Especially if he could just carry his own sand dunes:D!
But armour makes a huge difference, regardless of training and weapons. Loincloths ain't cutting it, in the absence of big shields, and even then leather might be quite the life-saving protection...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;886533
For Asen:

I'll send you a copy of the draft - Carl is no longer publishing Tekumel materials, but he is selling off the old stock.

That would be very kind of you!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;886547

Agreed; if Phil had been up against the Egyptian's historical foes, he would have been just fine. But, those were the days of WRG 6th and lots of historical mismatches; everybody else had Assyrians, Greek hoplites, or - to Phil's disgust - Roman Imperials. Phil's guys just couldn't stand up to them, sorry to say.

Didn't he think to just announce victory against the Vikings (and am I right somebody always has troops in horned helmets he calls Vikings;))?
"We march against your lightly armoured troops".
"We run, and you die from the heat of chasing us in chain!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on March 22, 2016, 11:23:55 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886547
Agreed; if Phil had been up against the Egyptian's historical foes, he would have been just fine. But, those were the days of WRG 6th and lots of historical mismatches; everybody else had Assyrians, Greek hoplites, or - to Phil's disgust - Roman Imperials. Phil's guys just couldn't stand up to them, sorry to say.
Which is why we the Ptolemies were Greek (well Macedonian) and Imperial Rome ruled Egypt.

Maybe Phil would have been better off playing Stygians. Black Magic might have balanced out crap armor.
SPOILER (Hover over section below to view.)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-McPjulkLU2k/UJNNN-D5z8I/AAAAAAAAB40/AlDLiME8RIE/s1600/pic187288_lg.jpg)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 22, 2016, 11:51:21 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886533
For Asen:

I'll send you a copy of the draft - Carl is no longer publishing Tekumel materials, but he is selling off the old stock.


I emailed Carl the other day and he said he still had copies of the rules in stock.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 22, 2016, 11:53:49 AM
Quote from: Bren;886607
Which is why we the Ptolemies were Greek (well Macedonian) and Imperial Rome ruled Egypt.

Maybe Phil would have been better off playing Stygians. Black Magic might have balanced out crap armor.
SPOILER (Hover over section below to view.)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-McPjulkLU2k/UJNNN-D5z8I/AAAAAAAAB40/AlDLiME8RIE/s1600/pic187288_lg.jpg)


With Thoth Amon leading the army.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on March 22, 2016, 11:58:59 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886612
With Thoth Amon leading the army.
I'd put him more towards the rear. Or maybe the middle. In any case, he should have a good bodyguard corps to avoid any distractions caused by mighty thewed heroes. ;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 22, 2016, 12:25:34 PM
Quote from: Bren;886607
Which is why we the Ptolemies were Greek (well Macedonian) and Imperial Rome ruled Egypt.

Maybe Phil would have been better off playing Stygians. Black Magic might have balanced out crap armor.
SPOILER (Hover over section below to view.)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-McPjulkLU2k/UJNNN-D5z8I/AAAAAAAAB40/AlDLiME8RIE/s1600/pic187288_lg.jpg)

"Black magic, the last refuge of incompetent armoursmiths:D!"
Title: Armies in the Five Empires
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 22, 2016, 07:43:25 PM
Lord Chirine and Glorious General,

I have quite a few military related questions, but I’m not sure how interested the others on this thread would be. So, I’ll post a couple, and if necessary I can take it offline and ask the rest of the questions via PM, if you’re up for it, or start a new thread elsewhere.

How big are typical battles in the Five Empires? What size formations are typically employed by the Five Empires during a Qadárdàlikoi (or “Great War”)? Are we looking at several legions being deployed to a given theatre, or are Cohorts typically the largest type of unit used, combined as required. If memory serves, there are almost 90 Legions in the Tsolyáni Army. How probable would it be to have say 10 or 20 of them in a large campaign directed against a similarly sized enemy force, such as during  the war with Yán Kór, or during the Mu’ugalavyáni invasion of the Chákas?

I know that individual combat between Champions is often a precursor before the Qadárnikoi (or “Little War”), but what about the Qadárdàlikoi (or “Great War”). Is a set piece normal before a major battle, or are such rituals reserved for lesser conflicts?



Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on March 22, 2016, 09:14:16 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886733
I have quite a few military related questions, but I’m not sure how interested the others on this thread would be.
For what it's worth, I'm interested.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 22, 2016, 11:53:23 PM
I never did see full strategic info on how the Glorious Seal Emperor was conducting the war.  Sometimes it was just my legion, sometimes, like at Sunraya there would be an amazingly large number of legions, and it seemed like we spent a lot of time marching here, there, and everywhere to confuse the enemy as to the Tsolyani army's true intent.

All I know is the Emperor said "General Mnasu, go here" and we went there.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 23, 2016, 02:24:54 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886733

How big are typical battles in the Five Empires? What size formations are typically employed by the Five Empires during a Qadárdàlikoi (or “Great War”)? Are we looking at several legions being deployed to a given theatre, or are Cohorts typically the largest type of unit used, combined as required. If memory serves, there are almost 90 Legions in the Tsolyáni Army. How probable would it be to have say 10 or 20 of them in a large campaign directed against a similarly sized enemy force, such as during  the war with Yán Kór, or during the Mu’ugalavyáni invasion of the Chákas?

I know that individual combat between Champions is often a precursor before the Qadárnikoi (or “Little War”), but what about the Qadárdàlikoi (or “Great War”). Is a set piece normal before a major battle, or are such rituals reserved for lesser conflicts?


I think that this kind of question is part of why this thread exists... :)

Let me take a quick first pass at this, and I'll have more tomorrow; very cold night tonight, just ahead of the storm we're supposed to get, and I need to be in bed pretty quick. So...

The size of battles depends entirely on the strategic situation on that particular front. Chanis, for example, which was fought as part of the 2020 War, had two full legions of Mu'uglavyani and detachments of several more. The Tsolyani had one full legion, and assorted detachments. Ry, on the other hand, was a slugfest with a single legion on each side.

Usually, multiple legions are deployed to a front; Tsolyani legions are specialists, so you'll see 'battle groups' of usually two or three heavy legions, the same number of mediums, and detachements of specialists like lights or missile troops. The Mu'uglavyani and Livyani tend to do the same thing, while the Yan Koryani and Salarvyani - having mixed legions - tend to go for numbers.

In our own battles, Tilketl saw us fighting two full Gureks (Tleku Miriya I and II) with three cohorts of heavies. Third Mar had the GG with his one legion, some Shen, and me all facing something like four or five full legions' worth of Yan Koryani. Anch'ke saw me facing down something like 15,000 tribesmen with one legion plus four cohorts. Our big battle with the Ssu had us with four cohorts - my personal troops - facing Vimuhla only knows how many Ssu.

So, a large campaign, such as NW Frontier or NE Frontier, would see a force like you describe - but they would be divided into battle groups, under a Kerdudali, and advance on different route due to the supply issues. (Even a small legion can eat everything out of an area...) Non-human mercenaries are rare; they are a strategic-level asset, and get parceled out to commanders based on perceived need and the commander's 'pull' with Avanthar.

(Try Steve Pisani's "Missumdalikoi" wargame; it's a strategic-level board game, and it is a great way to generate battle scenarios.)

Warfare in the Five Empires is pretty formal; the 'champion duels' are almost required for the 'little wars', and considered good form for the 'great wars'> Third Mar was considered a huge 'social gaffe' on the part of the Yan Koryani, as their commander opened the battle with a general onslaught and no formalities - too new at the business, and too impatient, and it cost him the battle and his life.

Does this help? I can say a lot more on this, of course... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 23, 2016, 02:45:05 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;886733
Lord Chirine and Glorious General,

I have quite a few military related questions, but I’m not sure how interested the others on this thread would be. So, I’ll post a couple, and if necessary I can take it offline and ask the rest of the questions via PM, if you’re up for it, or start a new thread elsewhere.

How big are typical battles in the Five Empires? What size formations are typically employed by the Five Empires during a Qadárdàlikoi (or “Great War”)? Are we looking at several legions being deployed to a given theatre, or are Cohorts typically the largest type of unit used, combined as required. If memory serves, there are almost 90 Legions in the Tsolyáni Army. How probable would it be to have say 10 or 20 of them in a large campaign directed against a similarly sized enemy force, such as during  the war with Yán Kór, or during the Mu’ugalavyáni invasion of the Chákas?

I know that individual combat between Champions is often a precursor before the Qadárnikoi (or “Little War”), but what about the Qadárdàlikoi (or “Great War”). Is a set piece normal before a major battle, or are such rituals reserved for lesser conflicts?



Shemek


As another questions asking fellow on this thread, I'd say you should ask any and all things that interest you. Yes, sometimes I wouldn't care about the answer, happened already! But Chirine would answer my questions, too! So it's not a zero sum game.
And sometimes I'd get valuable information from the answer to a question I wouldn't have bothered to ask. This has happened already, too.
So it's definitely not a zero sum game!

Ask away.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 23, 2016, 06:18:24 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;886802

1. I think that this kind of question is part of why this thread exists... :)


2. The size of battles depends entirely on the strategic situation on that particular front. Chanis, for example, which was fought as part of the 2020 War, had two full legions of Mu'uglavyani and detachments of several more. The Tsolyani had one full legion, and assorted detachments. Ry, on the other hand, was a slugfest with a single legion on each side.

Usually, multiple legions are deployed to a front; Tsolyani legions are specialists, so you'll see 'battle groups' of usually two or three heavy legions, the same number of mediums, and detachements of specialists like lights or missile troops. The Mu'uglavyani and Livyani tend to do the same thing, while the Yan Koryani and Salarvyani - having mixed legions - tend to go for numbers.

In our own battles, Tilketl saw us fighting two full Gureks (Tleku Miriya I and II) with three cohorts of heavies. Third Mar had the GG with his one legion, some Shen, and me all facing something like four or five full legions' worth of Yan Koryani. Anch'ke saw me facing down something like 15,000 tribesmen with one legion plus four cohorts.

3. Our big battle with the Ssu had us with four cohorts - my personal troops - facing Vimuhla only knows how many Ssu.

4. So, a large campaign, such as NW Frontier or NE Frontier, would see a force like you describe - but they would be divided into battle groups, under a Kerdudali, and advance on different route due to the supply issues. (Even a small legion can eat everything out of an area...) Non-human mercenaries are rare; they are a strategic-level asset, and get parceled out to commanders based on perceived need and the commander's 'pull' with Avanthar.


5. (Try Steve Pisani's "Missumdalikoi" wargame; it's a strategic-level board game, and it is a great way to generate battle scenarios.)

6. Warfare in the Five Empires is pretty formal; the 'champion duels' are almost required for the 'little wars', and considered good form for the 'great wars'> Third Mar was considered a huge 'social gaffe' on the part of the Yan Koryani, as their commander opened the battle with a general onslaught and no formalities - too new at the business, and too impatient, and it cost him the battle and his life.

Does this help? I can say a lot more on this, of course... :)


A lot of useful information Chirine. I have broken down your reply to my earlier post.

1. I agree, but I don't think everyone shares our interest and or enthusiasm in military things. So better safe that sorry.

2. What you describe above is kind of what I thought. Even though there may be more legions present in the ToO, the logistics involved and the terrain may not necessarily conducive to employing a  larger formation than a cohort or gurek for most battles, although several cohorts or gureks may be engaged in specific battles. To actually employ many full legions a side in a single battle would be atypical. Is this about right?  

I guess that these detachments (cohorts & gureks) would be considered the "typical" size when it came to battles?

3. In your experience with the Ssu have you seen them formed up in some kind formation that would be recognizable? I presume that when they emerge in force, as they are want to do in Pechano, the numbers of troops employed by the "Foes of Man" are quite significant. Several hundred perhaps?
Also, when you faced the Shunned Ones, as I believe you mentioned in an earlier post, did you see them using military formations, or were the numbers too small?

4. As in modern warfare logistics are the ultimate key to victory. If your troops are too hungry or thirsty to consolidate a gain, then what kind of victory has been achieved? A lot of people forget that it was due to his logistical acumen that Eisenhower was appointed overall Supreme Allied Commander by Marshall and Roosevelt. Many don't realize that he had never seen battle first hand, as a junior officer or otherwise. Unless of course you take into account his actions in Washington DC during the Bonus March.;)

5. Never heard of this work until you mentioned it. I took a look for it on line, but I only found really expensive copies of Seal of the Imperium where it was initially published. I would like to get a hold of these rules as I am interested in exploring large scale strategic level battles with my gaming group, but not at the prices I found. I'll have to keep my eyes open for them.

6. I am not surprised at this, and in fact would not have expected any less.  

I have some follow up questions, but I'll wait to post them until I read your answers to some of the new questions I posted above. BTW, We're getting that same weather system up here as lots of freezing rain, ice pellets and snow. Oh joy! Oh bliss! I wouldn't mind some of the weather in Jakalla right about now. :)

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 23, 2016, 06:26:09 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;886807
As another questions asking fellow on this thread, I'd say you should ask any and all things that interest you. Yes, sometimes I wouldn't care about the answer, happened already! But Chirine would answer my questions, too! So it's not a zero sum game.
And sometimes I'd get valuable information from the answer to a question I wouldn't have bothered to ask. This has happened already, too.
So it's definitely not a zero sum game!

Ask away.


I get it, but I don't want to make the thread boring for everyone else. I am really interested in very specific things: miniatures, painting, and military topics. Not everyone shares these interests. In fact, judging from the posts on this thread, most probably don't. However, if Chirine doesn't mind talking about these kind of things will continue to pester him.  :D

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 23, 2016, 07:47:27 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;887003
I get it, but I don't want to make the thread boring for everyone else. I am really interested in very specific things: miniatures, painting, and military topics. Not everyone shares these interests. In fact, judging from the posts on this thread, most probably don't. However, if Chirine doesn't mind talking about these kind of things will continue to pester him.  :D

Shemek


Well, I do share an interest in the military topics. As for the rest of it, I really can skip what I don't want to read:)!

And I'm pretty sure Chirine doesn't mind talking about this sort of things, given his experience of wargaming and using miniatures;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 23, 2016, 09:01:51 PM
A quick question about the OAL. Are they a combat legion as well as a ceremonial legion/secret police? How good are they as a combat unit? Would they be considered the best unit in the Imperium, or does that honour go to the 1st LoEPG?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on March 23, 2016, 11:22:44 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;887034
A quick question about the OAL. Are they a combat legion as well as a ceremonial legion/secret police? How good are they as a combat unit? Would they be considered the best unit in the Imperium, or does that honour go to the 1st LoEPG?
One request. Please don't use acronyms for the first reference in a post. It's makes it hard to follow for those of us without Eidetic memory.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 23, 2016, 11:57:26 PM
Omnipotent Azure Legion.

Phil used them as bogeymen early on in the Days of the Psychopaths, but things got a lot quieter among those of us who wanted to live on Tekumel, not burn it down and piss in the ashes.

Phil also came up with the "Jade Arch," an artifact that made you 100% permanently loyal to the Petal Throne and used to threaten players with it.  Then one night I volunteered to march through it at the head of my cohort.

Funny, I never heard about "The Jade Arch" again.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 23, 2016, 11:58:41 PM
Quote from: Bren;887057
One request. Please don't use acronyms for the first reference in a post. It's makes it hard to follow for those of us without Eidetic memory.


Oops, will do. Omnipotent Azure Legion (OAL), and the Legion of Ever Present Glory (LoEPG).

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 24, 2016, 12:03:04 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;887062


Phil also came up with the "Jade Arch," an artifact that made you 100% permanently loyal to the Petal Throne and used to threaten players with it.  Then one night I volunteered to march through it at the head of my cohort.

Funny, I never heard about "The Jade Arch" again.


Interesting how that works out, isn't it?😁
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on March 24, 2016, 12:05:41 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;887062
Phil also came up with the "Jade Arch," an artifact that made you 100% permanently loyal to the Petal Throne and used to threaten players with it.  Then one night I volunteered to march through it at the head of my cohort.

Funny, I never heard about "The Jade Arch" again.
Anybody ask the cohort what they thought about that?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 24, 2016, 01:01:29 AM
"Ask?"

"The king says, 'Porthos, fight,' and you fight."
"Oh, I do, I do."
"Then let us go be killed where we are ordered.  Is life worth so many questions?"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 24, 2016, 02:03:17 AM
From Shemek hiTankolel:A lot of useful information Chirine. I have broken down your reply to my earlier post.

Sounds good; replies interleaved, if that's all right...

1. I agree, but I don't think everyone shares our interest and or enthusiasm in military things. So better safe that sorry.

And that's very thoughtful of you. I am getting the impression that whatever information I can provide folks is useful in some way, so here we go...

2. What you describe above is kind of what I thought. Even though there may be more legions present in the ToO, the logistics involved and the terrain may not necessarily conducive to employing a  larger formation than a cohort or gurek for most battles, although several cohorts or gureks may be engaged in specific battles. To actually employ many full legions a side in a single battle would be atypical. Is this about right?

It would be; Chanis is one of the bigger ones, and was pretty decisive. Usually, the general commanding the campaign would send multiple cohort detachments as the battle groups that I mentioned, trying to match forces to missions. Big campaigns are a logistic nightmare, and most of the countries of Tekumel aren't very good at it. The Mu'uglavyani have specific 'logistics legions', but nobody else does.

I guess that these detachments (cohorts & gureks) would be considered the "typical" size when it came to battles?

Gureks are the Yan Koryani version of legions; they too are made up of cohorts, so you'd often see that as the basic building blocks of a battle group. Usually, the battlegroup is formed around one legion, usually a heavy if one is handy, with lots and lots of 'attachments'.
 
3. In your experience with the Ssu have you seen them formed up in some kind formation that would be recognizable? I presume that when they emerge in force, as they are want to do in Pechano, the numbers of troops employed by the "Foes of Man" are quite significant. Several hundred perhaps?
Also, when you faced the Shunned Ones, as I believe you mentioned in an earlier post, did you see them using military formations, or were the numbers too small?


Not really- they don't seem to use much of any formations at all - just a really big block, if they are out in any large numbers. Yes, you can expect to see several hundred - a cohort-sized bunch - normally, but for a really big push there can be a couple of thousand of them. Our battle in the Hekellu - Sirsum microcampaign had us fighting a force this big; it was a little scary.

Never saw Shunned Ones in any force; usually as skirmishing parties of maybe fifty to seventy-five. No formations to peak of; it was all skirmish warfare.

4. As in modern warfare logistics are the ultimate key to victory. If your troops are too hungry or thirsty to consolidate a gain, then what kind of victory has been achieved? A lot of people forget that it was due to his logistical acumen that Eisenhower was appointed overall Supreme Allied Commander by Marshall and Roosevelt. Many don't realize that he had never seen battle first hand, as a junior officer or otherwise. Unless of course you take into account his actions in Washington DC during the Bonus March.;)

Very true, which is why the Glorious General keeps me around. I was, up until very late in our time with Phil, much more of a staff officer then a line officer or sorcerer.

5. Never heard of this work until you mentioned it. I took a look for it on line, but I only found really expensive copies of Seal of the Imperium where it was initially published. I would like to get a hold of these rules as I am interested in exploring large scale strategic level battles with my gaming group, but not at the prices I found. I'll have to keep my eyes open for them.

Oh. That's too bad; it's a great game... :(

6. I am not surprised at this, and in fact would not have expected any less.

 The guy messed up, and didn't take some pretty basic precautions - he got hit hard, and got killed in the scrum.

I have some follow up questions, but I'll wait to post them until I read your answers to some of the new questions I posted above. BTW, We're getting that same weather system up here as lots of freezing rain, ice pellets and snow. Oh joy! Oh bliss! I wouldn't mind some of the weather in Jakalla right about now. :)

I did get through the night; I was the only one on, so it got a little hectic.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 24, 2016, 02:10:13 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;887034
A quick question about the OAL. Are they a combat legion as well as a ceremonial legion/secret police? How good are they as a combat unit? Would they be considered the best unit in the Imperium, or does that honour go to the 1st LoEPG?

Shemek


Yes; they have twenty cohorts (8,000 troops total) in steel armor, and are normally in garrison in Bey Su to make sure that everyone understands the benefits of being loyal In 2,354, they had so many recruits on the waiting list they re-established another legion of heavies, the Legion of Potent Destiny as I recall. So, they have something like forty cohorts of intensely loyal infantry to hand.

They are all right as a combat unit, but - if you asked for my professional opinion - they could use some time in the field to get them into shape. They're a garrison unit, and need a little boots on the ground time.

And yes, First Legion of Ever-Present Glory is - hands down - the very best combat unit in the Imperium. They have the field experience, and the skill behind them. On a scale of one to ten, they are about a fifteen.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 24, 2016, 02:17:17 AM
Quote from: Bren;887068
Anybody ask the cohort what they thought about that?


I was there when they heard about this. First, they were insulted that they might be thought disloyal, and then they formed behind their commander to prove that they were afraid of nothing. The Imperium, as well as General Serqu, were very impressed. Which is how the cohort commander became a field-grade officer, and then got his own legion. Gronan is one of the very - and I do mean very - few foreign-born people to be given command of an Imperial legion.

I am not, in contrast, an Imperial general. My little legion, All-Consuming Flame, is actually Engsvanyali in origin, and was never on the Imperial rolls. They are my personal troops, and I have to admit that I am just as proud of them as Gronan is of his legion, the Legion of Mnashu of Thri'il. He's got a good, tough medium infantry legion, and he deserves it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on March 24, 2016, 08:06:30 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;887097
Yes; they have twenty cohorts (8,000 troops total) in steel armor, and are normally in garrison in Bey Su to make sure that everyone understands the benefits of being loyal In 2,354, they had so many recruits on the waiting list they re-established another legion of heavies, the Legion of Potent Destiny as I recall. So, they have something like forty cohorts of intensely loyal infantry to hand.

They are all right as a combat unit, but - if you asked for my professional opinion - they could use some time in the field to get them into shape. They're a garrison unit, and need a little boots on the ground time.

And yes, First Legion of Ever-Present Glory is - hands down - the very best combat unit in the Imperium. They have the field experience, and the skill behind them. On a scale of one to ten, they are about a fifteen.


Hello Uncle,

I just dropped in to say hello. Also I could not resist. I have a question now as well(thanks guys)...

Since you are discussing individual Legions. As per the needs of the Imperium, if they had let's say a special mission that a whole Legion would be just too much big to get the job done; where a smaller group would be more practical. Who would the Imperium call upon(I know you have gone on special missions...)? Is there a "special forces" unit(like our modern day Navy Seals or Army Rangers)used to get the job done behind the scenes, or is it that certain individuals are called up to get the job done? Thanks.

Hope to hear from you soon...Now, I must get back through my nexus point and back to work...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on March 24, 2016, 08:20:15 AM
Lord Shemek,

I would not worry too much about the kinds of questions asked. Whether it be about minis, painting, or armies...You would be suprised. I'm sure there are many out there reading and taking it all in. And yet not posting. All of you have sparked my interest in painting and minis. So much that in the near future even I will try my hand at it. Alas, not till early Lesdrim...Sparks many times cause Infernos(that we all know Uncle loves)!!!

So ask away...!!!

Take care,

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 24, 2016, 10:24:31 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;887098
I was there when they heard about this. First, they were insulted that they might be thought disloyal, and then they formed behind their commander to prove that they were afraid of nothing. The Imperium, as well as General Serqu, were very impressed. Which is how the cohort commander became a field-grade officer, and then got his own legion. Gronan is one of the very - and I do mean very - few foreign-born people to be given command of an Imperial legion.

I am not, in contrast, an Imperial general. My little legion, All-Consuming Flame, is actually Engsvanyali in origin, and was never on the Imperial rolls. They are my personal troops, and I have to admit that I am just as proud of them as Gronan is of his legion, the Legion of Mnashu of Thri'il. He's got a good, tough medium infantry legion, and he deserves it.


Chirine speaks truth.  We got where we got by hard work and blood, not by political chicanery.

But it really was fun watching Phil backpetal about the Jade Arch.

There, I think, may be the best demonstration of the difference between groups; the "skullduggers" had The Jade Arch waved at them as a possible punishment, we were all for marching through.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 24, 2016, 02:23:01 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;887143
Hello Uncle,

I just dropped in to say hello. Also I could not resist. I have a question now as well(thanks guys)...

Since you are discussing individual Legions. As per the needs of the Imperium, if they had let's say a special mission that a whole Legion would be just too much big to get the job done; where a smaller group would be more practical. Who would the Imperium call upon(I know you have gone on special missions...)? Is there a "special forces" unit(like our modern day Navy Seals or Army Rangers)used to get the job done behind the scenes, or is it that certain individuals are called up to get the job done? Thanks.

Hope to hear from you soon...Now, I must get back through my nexus point and back to work...

H:0)


Normally, player-characters. None of the Five Empires has anything like 'special ops' troops. PCs are easy to hire, send out with whatever resources they might need - like a pouch full of Eyes - and then be 'deniable' if need by. I got sent on a number of 'special ops' over the years, in between formal military campaigns.

Line troops just are not trained or equipped for this kind of thing, and are usually needed where they are to keep order or watch the border. So, it's PCs. which, after all, is why Phil created the thing in the first place; it's all about 'adventure'... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 24, 2016, 02:25:41 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;887167
Chirine speaks truth.  We got where we got by hard work and blood, not by political chicanery.

But it really was fun watching Phil backpetal about the Jade Arch.

There, I think, may be the best demonstration of the difference between groups; the "skullduggers" had The Jade Arch waved at them as a possible punishment, we were all for marching through.


Yeah, I think so, too. We, both as a group and as individuals, were always much more interested in cooperation in play and simply getting on with living in Phil's world. We were, I think, 'very immersed' in it, and that for years and years... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 26, 2016, 10:45:38 AM
How closely do Qol work with other creations or allies of Ksarul?
Can they summon any using spells or devices and then control them?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 26, 2016, 05:23:11 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;887516
How closely do Qol work with other creations or allies of Ksarul?
Can they summon any using spells or devices and then control them?
=


Very closely, from what we saw. In quite a few encounters with them in the various Underworlds, there might be one or two humans from the Temple of Ksarul, and the rest of the party would be anywhere from six to twenty Qol. We did see some Gruganu priests with them on several occasions, as well as all sorts of the 'the usual' Temple of Ksarul creatures. In several encounters, it looked like there was a 'senior Qol' who was in charge and giving the orders.

Yes; they seem to have the full set of spells and abilities that humans do; I don't know if they have the S&G 'temple' spells, as we tried really hard not to hang around long enough to find out. So, yes, we saw them bring up just about anything and everything that we'd see that the Temple of Ksarul had to offer, which often got pretty annoying.

Looking back on this, and thinking about it in game terms, I sort of surprised that they didn't get the kind of 'rolling up' treatment that other non-human races did. I would have liked to have something to roll them up with as NPCs - I strongly doubt that they'd be viable as PCs, to be honest - that had a little more 'flavor'; I normally just roll them up as humans, shading them slightly downwards (-10%) on Dexterity 'cause they don't have fingers. And I'm open to discussion on that, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on March 26, 2016, 09:12:28 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;887558
Very closely, from what we saw. In quite a few encounters with them in the various Underworlds, there might be one or two humans from the Temple of Ksarul, and the rest of the party would be anywhere from six to twenty Qol. We did see some Gruganu priests with them on several occasions, as well as all sorts of the 'the usual' Temple of Ksarul creatures. In several encounters, it looked like there was a 'senior Qol' who was in charge and giving the orders.

Yes; they seem to have the full set of spells and abilities that humans do; I don't know if they have the S&G 'temple' spells, as we tried really hard not to hang around long enough to find out. So, yes, we saw them bring up just about anything and everything that we'd see that the Temple of Ksarul had to offer, which often got pretty annoying.

Looking back on this, and thinking about it in game terms, I sort of surprised that they didn't get the kind of 'rolling up' treatment that other non-human races did. I would have liked to have something to roll them up with as NPCs - I strongly doubt that they'd be viable as PCs, to be honest - that had a little more 'flavor'; I normally just roll them up as humans, shading them slightly downwards (-10%) on Dexterity 'cause they don't have fingers. And I'm open to discussion on that, too.


Uncle,

So the Qol speak "The Not-So-Secret Language of Ksarul"? Can they easily communicate with humans and the other races of Tekumel? Where there any limit to how advanced the Qol could be in the Professor's game? Where there any other creatures that could be advanced as well?

Also, If you please any interesting stories involving Hra...?

If we discussed this already forgive. The thread is getting long...

Thanks,

H:0)
Title: Ssu "Army"
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 26, 2016, 09:20:28 PM
Chirine,

Going back to an earlier point I raised. You said that Ssu typically weren't organized in the same way that troops in the Five Empires would be, but that there could be hundreds, or even  thousands of them deployed on the field. Just out of curiosity, how would you rate the Ssu? When they formed up and took on a cohort of Tsolyanu's best, assuming equal numbers on both sides, who would you think would be the stronger unit (at least on paper)?
Do Ssu employ more "mundane" artillery like onagers, ballista, etc, or do they exclusively use devices of the ancients, like lightning bringers?
Battle magic is not uncommon in the Five Empires, and I presume all nations essentially employ the same types of spells with, perhaps, some regional differences being present. What about the Ssu? I know that Phil has described them as being fearsome spell casters, but is their battle magic, as far as you know, the same as human battle magic?  
How obviously noticeable and effective are Ssu leaders/commanders. Do they tramp on to the battlefield with some type of retinue, or under Standards/Battle Flags? Do they lead from the front, or do they look just like one of the rank and file. In fact do they even have someone (thing?) that we would be able to even recognize as a commander?  


Shemek.
Title: Tsolyani Podcast
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 26, 2016, 09:25:19 PM
Recently came across this. Kind of interesting, especially if linguistics is your thing. Some nice anecdotes as well. I thought it was good background noise while I was painting miniatures. Here's the link:

http://conlangery.com/2015/12/01/conlangery-115-tsolyani/

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 26, 2016, 10:06:38 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;887593
Uncle,
So the Qol speak "The Not-So-Secret Language of Ksarul"? Can they easily communicate with humans and the other races of Tekumel? Where there any limit to how advanced the Qol could be in the Professor's game? Where there any other creatures that could be advanced as well?

Also, If you please any interesting stories involving Hra...?

If we discussed this already forgive. The thread is getting long...


Yes, and Yes. They were perfectly understandable, and since we all pretty much had "The Secret Tongue" - it was just too obvious not to pick it - we never had any problems talking to them.

Not that we saw. In all our encounters with them, they were just as good, just as fast, and just as smart as we were. They were always a real challenge, and we were very careful around them.

Any of the sapient life forms could be just as good as humans. We just breed faster then they do, which is why we more or less control the planet. A lot of the things we met were not sapient, and we didn't expect them to be very advanced.

However, there were some nasty surprises. The Nygga, of Lake Parunal, are the only truly aquatic race - that we know about - and are only limited by their living underwater; which is why they do come up onto the shores for things. We found that 'creatures' like the Serudla, Feshenga, and the Sro could all use tools and speak; there are also the small populations that form the loose alliance of the Brotherhood of the Half-Human. The big difference is in language - if it can talk to you, it's what Phil defined as 'sapient'. (Phil considered that some of his players - all in the other group - did not meet this definition.)

Hra are not sapient. The Temple of Ksarul makes them for themselves and the Temple of Sarku, and they are dangerous if the party gets sloppy. They are used as guardians, and pretty effective; we've been ambushed by them on more then a few occasions, and had to fight our way out of the trap. (There'll be more about them in Book One, by the way.)

No problem; always happy to answer questions! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 26, 2016, 10:21:34 PM
From Shemek hiTankolel:

Going back to an earlier point I raised. You said that Ssu typically weren't organized in the same way that troops in the Five Empires would be, but that there could be hundreds, or even  thousands of them deployed on the field. Just out of curiosity, how would you rate the Ssu? When they formed up and took on a cohort of Tsolyanu's best, assuming equal numbers on both sides, who would you think would be the stronger unit (at least on paper)?

They are usually very decent light infantry, at least in our fights with them. If it was down to equal numbers, the human infantry would kill them hands down. They just don;t have the numbers or the weaponry to take on one of the Five Empires, but they are a very real threat to the small states like Pechano where the humans simply don;t have the resources to overwhelm the Ssu.

Do Ssu employ more "mundane" artillery like onagers, ballista, etc, or do they exclusively use devices of the ancients, like lightning bringers?

Yes, but not very much; they are not skilled at sieges, for example. The lighting-bringers are rare - and have a habit of exploding at the most inopportune moments, too. Nobody uses them in 'serious' warfare; they are too precious, and too dangerous.

Battle magic is not uncommon in the Five Empires, and I presume all nations essentially employ the same types of spells with, perhaps, some regional differences being present. What about the Ssu? I know that Phil has described them as being fearsome spell casters, but is their battle magic, as far as you know, the same as human battle magic?  

Yep, you are right. We never saw any 'military' magic users with the Ssu. It was individual sorcerers doing their own thing, and these usually got smothered pretty fast by either our own magic-users or by our missile troops. The normal way to deal with them was to kill them quick, using ranged weapons, and then get on with the fight.

How obviously noticeable and effective are Ssu leaders/commanders. Do they tramp on to the battlefield with some type of retinue, or under Standards/Battle Flags? Do they lead from the front, or do they look just like one of the rank and file. In fact do they even have someone (thing?) that we would be able to even recognize as a commander?  

They do have leaders, who can be distinguished (and targeted!) by their wearing armor or other decoration. They do have standards - not battle flags - and can be picked out by these as well. Lower-level 'officers' do fight from the front, as we saw, and more 'senior' ones tend to command from the back. Their chiming voices do carry well on battlefields, especially smaller ones, and they seem to be able to do a pretty good job of command and control - which is why we tried very, very hard to kill them as quickly as possible.

The nearest analogy that I can think of is the Zulu impi; they hit fast and hard, and about all you can do is kill them as fast as you can. We had one fight that was, for all intents and purposes, Rourke's Drift with Tsolyani and Ssu, which was really interesting because Phil knew little, if anything, about the actual battle - long past his period.

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 26, 2016, 10:23:19 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;887595
Recently came across this. Kind of interesting, especially if linguistics is your thing. Some nice anecdotes as well. I thought it was good background noise while I was painting miniatures. Here's the link:

http://conlangery.com/2015/12/01/conlangery-115-tsolyani/

Shemek


This is a very good interview, really, and shows what Dr. Raymond is capable of when he's not having issues over 'control' and 'prestige'. And I'll just leave it at that, thank you.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 26, 2016, 10:41:53 PM
Speaking of standards and 'battle flags'...

Each of the Five Empires has a particular style of standard, usually based on ancient examples. The Tsolyani, for example, use poles with plumes and devices; the Yan Kor sculpted clan emblems and totems; the Salarvyani cloth banners that hang from cross-pieces, like the Italian gonfalon; The Mu'uglavyani long trailing cloth banners like medieval standards; the Livyani - as might be expected - all sorts of mysterious glyphs and emblems of the Shadow Gods.

The small states tend to copy their nearest neighbor, which makes sense. Even in Tsolyanu, the location of the legion's base will affect their choices; 'western' legions tend to look a lot more Mu'uglavyani, while 'eastern' ones a lot more Salarvyani. My own legion has banners, as their primary standard - showing the device of the Ancient Nluss, the Dragon and the Flame -  and also staffs with devices for the lower echelons of command.

What we don't have is any sort of 'system' to the subject. We had a guy write in to Phil along about 1978, who insisted that we had to use 'proper' battle flags for our units. And, by the strangest of happenstances, he was kind enough to include a detailed set of artwork for these 'proper' battle flags that he insisted we should adopt and publish in order to make Tekumel "more acceptable to the historical miniatures player".

If I had been Napoleon, I would have sued for copyright violations, plagarism, or IP abuse. The gent's system was the same - and I do mean the same! - as what the French Army under the First Empire used. I think his idea was that since the French and Tsolyani armies wear blue, then they should have the same flags. Same for the Mu'uglavyani - they wear red, so they got period British standards, two to a unit, and to the exact same pattern.

Phil wrote the guy back, explaining in very kind a polite terms that things on Tekumel were not done that way. He got very huffy, and told us that he was going to boycott the miniatures line. We got stuff like this in all the time, which is one of the big reasons why I am delighted not to be on the 'commercial' side of the house...

Oh, sigh...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 26, 2016, 10:53:22 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;887605
From Shemek hiTankolel:

1. Yes, but not very much; they are not skilled at sieges, for example. The lighting-bringers are rare - and have a habit of exploding at the most inopportune moments, too. Nobody uses them in 'serious' warfare; they are too precious, and too dangerous.

2. They do have leaders, who can be distinguished (and targeted!) by their wearing armor or other decoration. They do have standards - not battle flags - and can be picked out by these as well. Lower-level 'officers' do fight from the front, as we saw, and more 'senior' ones tend to command from the back. Their chiming voices do carry well on battlefields, especially smaller ones, and they seem to be able to do a pretty good job of command and control - which is why we tried very, very hard to kill them as quickly as possible.

3. The nearest analogy that I can think of is the Zulu impi; they hit fast and hard, and about all you can do is kill them as fast as you can. We had one fight that was, for all intents and purposes, Rourke's Drift with Tsolyani and Ssu, which was really interesting because Phil knew little, if anything, about the actual battle - long past his period.

Does this help?


Chirine,

Thank you for the responses:D Incredibly helpful as usual!
I've got this bee in my bonnet recently to do some large scale (strategic level) war gaming on Tekumel. I'm developing and adjusting an old rule set so that I can have my group do some "generalship" in the future. Although the rules are for some type of generic fantasy hex and chit war game they really lend themselves to Tekumel IMO. I just got my copy of Tony Bath's book and I am feverishly working on a campaign. Doing the orbat for the Tsolyani legions was a huge undertaking. I was able to find an excel spreadsheet somewhere on line that lists every legion, its equipment, number of cohorts, commander, etc.. and this made it somewhat easier. I've started on the Salarvayani and Pechani Nchesh's, but once that's done I've got to find the Yan Koryani (and allies), Mu'ugalavyani, and Livyani orbats. This may pose a problem:(    

1. I think the lightning bringers are one of those "cool" weapons. Look great on the table top but don't do too much. As is often the case, just like in life, they're good from afar, but far from good.

2. That makes sense, and is kind of how I pictured it for some reason. Like in the Pink Floyd song:" 'Forward' he cried from, the rear,
And the front rank died."

3. Let's hope a Ssu Shaka doesn't arise:jaw-dropping:

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on March 26, 2016, 10:54:28 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;887600
Yes, and Yes. They were perfectly understandable, and since we all pretty much had "The Secret Tongue" - it was just too obvious not to pick it - we never had any problems talking to them.

Not that we saw. In all our encounters with them, they were just as good, just as fast, and just as smart as we were. They were always a real challenge, and we were very careful around them.

Any of the sapient life forms could be just as good as humans. We just breed faster then they do, which is why we more or less control the planet. A lot of the things we met were not sapient, and we didn't expect them to be very advanced.

However, there were some nasty surprises. The Nygga, of Lake Parunal, are the only truly aquatic race - that we know about - and are only limited by their living underwater; which is why they do come up onto the shores for things. We found that 'creatures' like the Serudla, Feshenga, and the Sro could all use tools and speak; there are also the small populations that form the loose alliance of the Brotherhood of the Half-Human. The big difference is in language - if it can talk to you, it's what Phil defined as 'sapient'. (Phil considered that some of his players - all in the other group - did not meet this definition.)

Hra are not sapient. The Temple of Ksarul makes them for themselves and the Temple of Sarku, and they are dangerous if the party gets sloppy. They are used as guardians, and pretty effective; we've been ambushed by them on more then a few occasions, and had to fight our way out of the trap. (There'll be more about them in Book One, by the way.)

No problem; always happy to answer questions! :)


The Nyagga can interbreed with humans(I think I read that somewhere)? If that is the case, what the heck would be the outcome...???

Maybe it's a good thing that Humanspace technolgy is scarce. Nygga in suits that allow them to move over land. Scary thought. Kinda like War of the Worlds.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 26, 2016, 10:56:02 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;887606
This is a very good interview, really, and shows what Dr. Raymond is capable of when he's not having issues over 'control' and 'prestige'. And I'll just leave it at that, thank you.


Seemed pretty even-keeled to me. I liked the story about the Shipali family.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 26, 2016, 11:14:15 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;887609
Speaking of standards and 'battle flags'...

1. Each of the Five Empires has a particular style of standard, usually based on ancient examples. The Tsolyani, for example, use poles with plumes and devices; the Yan Kor sculpted clan emblems and totems; the Salarvyani cloth banners that hang from cross-pieces, like the Italian gonfalon; The Mu'uglavyani long trailing cloth banners like medieval standards; the Livyani - as might be expected - all sorts of mysterious glyphs and emblems of the Shadow Gods.

2. The small states tend to copy their nearest neighbor, which makes sense. Even in Tsolyanu, the location of the legion's base will affect their choices; 'western' legions tend to look a lot more Mu'uglavyani, while 'eastern' ones a lot more Salarvyani.

3. My own legion has banners, as their primary standard - showing the device of the Ancient Nluss, the Dragon and the Flame -  and also staffs with devices for the lower echelons of command.


4. If I had been Napoleon, I would have sued for copyright violations, plagarism, or IP abuse. The gent's system was the same - and I do mean the same! - as what the French Army under the First Empire used. I think his idea was that since the French and Tsolyani armies wear blue, then they should have the same flags. Same for the Mu'uglavyani - they wear red, so they got period British standards, two to a unit, and to the exact same pattern.

5. Phil wrote the guy back, explaining in very kind a polite terms that things on Tekumel were not done that way. He got very huffy, and told us that he was going to boycott the miniatures line. We got stuff like this in all the time, which is one of the big reasons why I am delighted not to be on the 'commercial' side of the house...

Oh, sigh...


1. That's very interesting. I knew about the Tsolyani banners, but not about the other nations. You wouldn't have any examples that you could post?

2. They borrow so much from their neighbours that I'm not surprised that there is a similarity in heraldic conventions, or a shared vexillological corpus (must be channelling Phil tonight;))

3. Any chance of posting this or directing us where can see it? Sounds really interesting.

4. Certainement! What else would one use for Tsolyani and Mu'ugalavyani standards? :idunno:  


5. I don't doubt it. From what you have posted here I think that it was a big pain in the butt that you are glad to be rid of.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 26, 2016, 11:15:56 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;887613
The Nyagga can interbreed with humans(I think I read that somewhere)? If that is the case, what the heck would be the outcome...???

Maybe it's a good thing that Humanspace technolgy is scarce. Nygga in suits that allow them to move over land. Scary thought. Kinda like War of the Worlds.

H:0)


No kidding Mighty Hrugga of the Epics. The Ssu and Shunned Ones are bad enough.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 27, 2016, 12:29:55 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;887611
Chirine,

Thank you for the responses:D Incredibly helpful as usual!
I've got this bee in my bonnet recently to do some large scale (strategic level) war gaming on Tekumel. I'm developing and adjusting an old rule set so that I can have my group do some "generalship" in the future. Although the rules are for some type of generic fantasy hex and chit war game they really lend themselves to Tekumel IMO. I just got my copy of Tony Bath's book and I am feverishly working on a campaign. Doing the orbat for the Tsolyani legions was a huge undertaking. I was able to find an excel spreadsheet somewhere on line that lists every legion, its equipment, number of cohorts, commander, etc.. and this made it somewhat easier. I've started on the Salarvayani and Pechani Nchesh's, but once that's done I've got to find the Yan Koryani (and allies), Mu'ugalavyani, and Livyani orbats. This may pose a problem:(    

1. I think the lightning bringers are one of those "cool" weapons. Look great on the table top but don't do too much. As is often the case, just like in life, they're good from afar, but far from good.

2. That makes sense, and is kind of how I pictured it for some reason. Like in the Pink Floyd song:" 'Forward' he cried from, the rear,
And the front rank died."

3. Let's hope a Ssu Shaka doesn't arise:jaw-dropping:

Shemek


You're welcome!

I'm surprised that you are having to recreate the "Armies" series, which has all the information you are looking for - legions, hex number locations, arms and armor, etc. Last I heard, the Tekumel Foundation had republishing these as a high priority project; they were supposed to have been re-done and out several years ago. The editions I did are going for silly prices in the collectibles market; I've often thought of selling off my paper copies and working from my digital versions.

Well, I like the lightning-bringers myself; they're a great excuse for some cool models - I have three different ones in the arsenal - and a lot of fun on the game table. They usually fail, and at the worse possible time. :)

Yep; the Zulus were noted for having very good command and control, which is one of the many reasons that they are fun to game.

Agreed, which is why we try really, really hard to kill any of them thet even look competent.

Strategic campaigns are what we used to do all the time, as a way to generate battles on the table. I do miss that style of gaming; people don;t seem to have time for it, any more...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 27, 2016, 12:36:45 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;887613
The Nyagga can interbreed with humans(I think I read that somewhere)? If that is the case, what the heck would be the outcome...???

Maybe it's a good thing that Humanspace technolgy is scarce. Nygga in suits that allow them to move over land. Scary thought. Kinda like War of the Worlds.

H:0)


Yes, they can; it's in the Sourcebook. The outcome are the Pallid Ones who live on the shores of Lake Parunal; these are the ones who do not go back to the underwater civilization, and live on land. They have vestigial gills.

They are also the ones who provide the Gurek of Ngakku - I first modeled these for Phil in 1977, or so. The Ral Partha 'Sea Elf Advancing With Pike" is a dead ringer for the illustration that Craig did. They are now back in production by Ral Partha, too, so you can have the same figures that we did, back in the day... :)

And they may have powered exoskeletons in their treasure vaults, for all we know; nobody ever did much exploring, up that way...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 27, 2016, 12:39:56 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;887614
Seemed pretty even-keeled to me. I liked the story about the Shipali family.

Shemek


Yep; that's Dr. William Shipley, of USC Berkeley, who was one of Phil's original players back in the Fifties. (I have a list of all of them, by the way.) Phil did both the Shipali lang grand document and an exploration permit for him. After Phil passed away, we contacted his family and his son Michael still has the original document, and we got copies.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 27, 2016, 12:51:15 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;887617
1. That's very interesting. I knew about the Tsolyani banners, but not about the other nations. You wouldn't have any examples that you could post?

2. They borrow so much from their neighbours that I'm not surprised that there is a similarity in heraldic conventions, or a shared vexillological corpus (must be channelling Phil tonight;))

3. Any chance of posting this or directing us where can see it? Sounds really interesting.

4. Certainement! What else would one use for Tsolyani and Mu'ugalavyani standards? :idunno:  


5. I don't doubt it. From what you have posted here I think that it was a big pain in the butt that you are glad to be rid of.

Shemek


1.I do, and I'll look for the files when I have a chance. See #3, though.

2. Exactly. The US Army did this, as well; see also the uniforms that the boys wore before and after the Franco-Prussian War in 1870.

3. You should be asking the Tekumel Foundation for this kind of thing, really. They are very insistent that any and all such requests for information must go through them, and I am trying to respect their wishes; I was told after this year's Gary Con that they are very hurt - their words - that people talk to me and not to them about things like this.

4. Agreed! And with Harchar supplying the 'magic Elven bang sticks' that we got in Blackmoor, we could do some really serious gaming and not this fantasy crap!!! :)

5. It was a screaming pain in the ass. There was never any money, so I had to fund pretty much everything out of my back pocket. A lot of people owe their present prestige and position to the hard work that I - and Gronan - put in over the years, and they ruined my relationship with Phil trying to get control of what we'd built. Now, they're in the hot seat, and not having a very good time from what I'm told. Tough. Welcome to the real world, people.

And let's drop that thought, if we may; it only gets me blood pressure up...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 27, 2016, 12:52:21 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;887618
No kidding Mighty Hrugga of the Epics. The Ssu and Shunned Ones are bad enough.

Shemek


Oh, I'd agree with that. In bunches... :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 27, 2016, 01:23:35 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;887600
Yes, and Yes. They were perfectly understandable, and since we all pretty much had "The Secret Tongue" - it was just too obvious not to pick it - we never had any problems talking to them.


I think poor Phil was kind of chagrined for a while that the Secret Tongue became the "Lingua Franca" of Tekumel, but he got over it. :D

Quote from: chirine ba kal;887609
We got stuff like this in all the time, which is one of the big reasons why I am delighted not to be on the 'commercial' side of the house...

Oh, sigh...


* hands Chirine the industrial-sized drum of Excedrin *
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 27, 2016, 01:47:53 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;887629
I think poor Phil was kind of chagrined for a while that the Secret Tongue became the "Lingua Franca" of Tekumel, but he got over it. :D

* hands Chirine the industrial-sized drum of Excedrin *


Agreed; I think his only regret with the TSR edition of EPT was including The Secret Tongue as an 'open source' item in the languages list. So, Phil being Phil, he then came up with The Even More Secret Tongue of the Temple of Ksarul, which all the Ksarul-worshipping players then learned. This then led to The Really Secret Tongue of the Temple of Ksaurl, and one had to be very high-level to learn it. Nobody ever got that high, so the problem was solved.

Thank you; it's one of the very few pain-killers I can take these days, due to interactions with my other medications. I'm particularly cranky this evening, due to a three-day-long flare-up of the gout I came down with after Gary Con in 2015 - I got very badly dehydrated, and gout was the result. I couldn't walk at all on Thursday, and didn't get much of any sleep overnight Friday to Saturday. It hurts, and I'm tired of hurting.

Nope, I just get cranky at what has happened to Tekumel, especially since Phil passed away. A lot of good will and opportunity has been squandered, and I'm sorry to see it happen this way.

I'll be happy to keep talking about Tekumel and Phil, and the times we had with him, but I am extremely glad not to have anything to do with the commercial side of the house.

Onward!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on March 27, 2016, 08:28:32 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;887618
No kidding Mighty Hrugga of the Epics. The Ssu and Shunned Ones are bad enough.

Shemek


Ahh Lord Shemek,

The thought of Shaka Ssulu and his mighty horde surrounding Beneshchan's Drift is enough to give me the creeps...musty cinnamon, piping chimes and all!!!
I only hope I can make it in time. I'm no friend of the Ssu...

H;0)

PS Shunned Ones, Freshenga, and Sro oh my!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 27, 2016, 11:53:48 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;887623
You're welcome!

1. I'm surprised that you are having to recreate the "Armies" series, which has all the information you are looking for - legions, hex number locations, arms and armor, etc. Last I heard, the Tekumel Foundation had republishing these as a high priority project; they were supposed to have been re-done and out several years ago. The editions I did are going for silly prices in the collectibles market; I've often thought of selling off my paper copies and working from my digital versions.

2. Well, I like the lightning-bringers myself; they're a great excuse for some cool models - I have three different ones in the arsenal - and a lot of fun on the game table. They usually fail, and at the worse possible time. :)



3. Strategic campaigns are what we used to do all the time, as a way to generate battles on the table. I do miss that style of gaming; people don;t seem to have time for it, any more...


1. Unfortunately, there are no digital copies online that I can find. I checked Drivethru RPG and they had some great stuff, but no army lists. Too bad, I really wanted to do something between Tsolyanu and Mu'ugalavya.  I guess have to restrict myself to just Tsolyani, Salarvyani, and Pechani lists for now. I can at least make up some Ssu units. Since there are no "official" listings the sky's the limit. The trouble is that even a strategic level campaign against the Ssu would be quite limited in scope given their numbers, and the lack of concerted effort by the Five Empires to utterly eradicate them.  Then again, if I do a campaign set in Gamulu's time there's a lot more breadth available, and everything can be made from scratch...

2. My experience has been that these type of things are often more memorable than the majority of battles fought. The guys in my group still bring up events that took place 30+ years ago, and are remembered because they were catastrophic fails. The best laid plans of mice...

3. This must be an "age thing". When I started playing D&D the notion of single unrelated scenarios was unthought of by me and my gaming circle. If anyone had suggested this the universal responsive would have been what's the point of playing a series of unlinked games? How boring! A campaign mindset was intuitive for us. After all, we played D&D primarily because we wanted to make our own fantasy epic like the Amber, or Elric, or Hawkmoon, or Conan stories. Damn, I feel old!

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 27, 2016, 12:22:56 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;887626
1.I do, and I'll look for the files when I have a chance. See #3, though.

2. Exactly. The US Army did this, as well; see also the uniforms that the boys wore before and after the Franco-Prussian War in 1870.

3. You should be asking the Tekumel Foundation for this kind of thing, really. They are very insistent that any and all such requests for information must go through them, and I am trying to respect their wishes; I was told after this year's Gary Con that they are very hurt - their words - that people talk to me and not to them about things like this.

4. Agreed! And with Harchar supplying the 'magic Elven bang sticks' that we got in Blackmoor, we could do some really serious gaming and not this fantasy crap!!! :)

5. It was a screaming pain in the ass. There was never any money, so I had to fund pretty much everything out of my back pocket. A lot of people owe their present prestige and position to the hard work that I - and Gronan - put in over the years, and they ruined my relationship with Phil trying to get control of what we'd built. Now, they're in the hot seat, and not having a very good time from what I'm told. Tough. Welcome to the real world, people.

And let's drop that thought, if we may; it only gets me blood pressure up...


1. Cool, and thank you. If you can get this posted I'm sure it would be helpful to a lot of people, even those not prmarily interested in  miniatures.

3. I get it and I'm not trying to stir the pot, but I have to ask, at the risk of sounding belligerent or obtuse, why bother?  You and Gronan are the experts on the subject at hand. You are willing to share your knowledge. No one is trying to profit at Phil's expense. This forum, to me at least, is like sitting around at the local pub or hobby shop and shooting the bull. I wouldn't write Mr Tamiya and ask him if I can talk about his 1/35 JS2  with my fellow modellers. Why should I have to ask others if I can talk about Tekumel? No offence, but stroking people's egos is not something that I really worry about these days. I'm kind of getting to appreciate what you've had to go through. One final point: I agree with you let's drop it and not cause any unnecessary aggravation. Here endeth the rant. :rant:

4. Hear! Hear! Kind of like when my old group found some Gamma World energy weapons and inadvertently blew a hole in the city wall, causing the visiting vizier from a neighbouring kingdom to be dropped in the street from his palanquin, when his panicked slave bearers hit the dirt. A Benny Hill chase ensued much to everyone's amusement.
 
Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 27, 2016, 12:28:23 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;887656
Ahh Lord Shemek,

The thought of Shaka Ssulu and his mighty horde surrounding Beneshchan's Drift is enough to give me the creeps...musty cinnamon, piping chimes and all!!!
I only hope I can make it in time. I'm no friend of the Ssu...

H;0)

PS Shunned Ones, Freshenga, and Sro oh my!!!


That's a good one Mighty Hrugga of the Epics! I have to remember to use Beneschan's Drift next time I visit Teshkoa. I'm sure King Beneschan would find that amusing.;)

Shaka Ssulu!:p You know that I'm stealing that one don't you?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 27, 2016, 12:31:16 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;887631
Agreed; I think his only regret with the TSR edition of EPT was including The Secret Tongue as an 'open source' item in the languages list. So, Phil being Phil, he then came up with The Even More Secret Tongue of the Temple of Ksarul, which all the Ksarul-worshipping players then learned. This then led to The Really Secret Tongue of the Temple of Ksaurl, and one had to be very high-level to learn it. Nobody ever got that high, so the problem was solved.


This totally sounds like something I would have done as well.:D

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 27, 2016, 12:36:15 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;887624
Yes, they can; it's in the Sourcebook. The outcome are the Pallid Ones who live on the shores of Lake Parunal; these are the ones who do not go back to the underwater civilization, and live on land. They have vestigial gills.

They are also the ones who provide the Gurek of Ngakku - I first modeled these for Phil in 1977, or so. The Ral Partha 'Sea Elf Advancing With Pike" is a dead ringer for the illustration that Craig did. They are now back in production by Ral Partha, too, so you can have the same figures that we did, back in the day... :)

And they may have powered exoskeletons in their treasure vaults, for all we know; nobody ever did much exploring, up that way...


Just out of curiosity what colour scheme does the Gurek of Ngakku  sport? What colour did you use to represent  their flesh?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 27, 2016, 01:53:11 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;887656

The thought of Shaka Ssulu and his mighty horde surrounding Beneshchan's Drift is enough to give me the creeps...musty cinnamon, piping chimes and all!!!

I can predict there shall be many antagonists in different Tekumel games named Shaka Ssulu:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 27, 2016, 02:01:53 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;887698
I can predict there shall be many antagonists in different Tekumel games named Shaka Ssulu:D!


...you have no shame at all, do you.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on March 27, 2016, 02:05:03 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;887686
That's a good one Mighty Hrugga of the Epics! I have to remember to use Beneschan's Drift next time I visit Teshkoa. I'm sure King Beneschan would find that amusing.;)

Shaka Ssulu!:p You know that I'm stealing that one don't you?

Shemek


Enjoy!!! At your service.

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 27, 2016, 03:46:17 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;887700
...you have no shame at all, do you.


...Shame from what?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 27, 2016, 05:33:23 PM
From Shemek hiTankolel:

1. Unfortunately, there are no digital copies online that I can find. I checked Drivethru RPG and they had some great stuff, but no army lists. Too bad, I really wanted to do something between Tsolyanu and Mu'ugalavya.  I guess have to restrict myself to just Tsolyani, Salarvyani, and Pechani lists for now. I can at least make up some Ssu units. Since there are no "official" listings the sky's the limit. The trouble is that even a strategic level campaign against the Ssu would be quite limited in scope given their numbers, and the lack of concerted effort by the Five Empires to utterly eradicate them.  Then again, if I do a campaign set in Gamulu's time there's a lot more breadth available, and everything can be made from scratch...

Well, that's odd. I was assured that they had their very best people working on it, as that the troop lists had valuable information that was vital for doing RPGs. Wonder what happened?

2. My experience has been that these type of things are often more memorable than the majority of battles fought. The guys in my group still bring up events that took place 30+ years ago, and are remembered because they were catastrophic fails. The best laid plans of mice...

Very true - I'm still laughing over things like this, forty years on, and enjoying them still.

3. This must be an "age thing". When I started playing D&D the notion of single unrelated scenarios was unthought of by me and my gaming circle. If anyone had suggested this the universal responsive would have been what's the point of playing a series of unlinked games? How boring! A campaign mindset was intuitive for us. After all, we played D&D primarily because we wanted to make our own fantasy epic like the Amber, or Elric, or Hawkmoon, or Conan stories. Damn, I feel old!

Same here. These days, it seems to be all about one-shots, modules, pre-gens, and get-it-get-out-with-the-XP.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 27, 2016, 05:39:16 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;887683

2. My experience has been that these type of things are often more memorable than the majority of battles fought. The guys in my group still bring up events that took place 30+ years ago, and are remembered because they were catastrophic fails. The best laid plans of mice...


That's been a major problem for me in my reminiscences about playing D&D with Gary back in the early 70s.  I didn't keep notes (hell, I was a high school kid) so when people ask "what was it like" about all I can say is "fun."  Except, as you say, for the disasters.

To paraphrase Tolstoy, "Successful dungeon adventures are all alike, but unsuccessful ones each go wrong in their own uniquely horrible way."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 27, 2016, 05:50:39 PM
From Shemek hiTankolel:1. Cool, and thank you. If you can get this posted I'm sure it would be helpful to a lot of people, even those not prmarily interested in  miniatures.

I'm still surprised that this series still isn't out. The digital versions have exisited for at least five years, and it doesn;t seem like it would take much to simply upload the files to the web.

3. I get it and I'm not trying to stir the pot, but I have to ask, at the risk of sounding belligerent or obtuse, why bother?  You and Gronan are the experts on the subject at hand. You are willing to share your knowledge. No one is trying to profit at Phil's expense. This forum, to me at least, is like sitting around at the local pub or hobby shop and shooting the bull. I wouldn't write Mr Tamiya and ask him if I can talk about his 1/35 JS2  with my fellow modellers. Why should I have to ask others if I can talk about Tekumel? No offence, but stroking people's egos is not something that I really worry about these days. I'm kind of getting to appreciate what you've had to go through. One final point: I agree with you let's drop it and not cause any unnecessary aggravation. Here endeth the rant. :rant:

Agreed; I have a lot of fun doing this - I had a lot of wonderful conversations, like this one, over the excellent fish and chips in the Union Pub in Wakefield, across from my railway club's exhibition venue. It simply floored me that the guy next to me had been a driver for the Gresley A4s - it was like talking to Phil about Tekumel, to hear him tell me what it was like of the footplate of those incredible machines.

People talking about and exchanging information about their hobby has been a basic foundation block from the beginning - see also the "Domesday Book", where Gary and Dave first began to share their adventures. I believe in that kind of thing, and I'll keep doing it. To quote Phil: "Here's my Tekumel, now make it yours."

4. Hear! Hear! Kind of like when my old group found some Gamma World energy weapons and inadvertently blew a hole in the city wall, causing the visiting vizier from a neighbouring kingdom to be dropped in the street from his palanquin, when his panicked slave bearers hit the dirt. A Benny Hill chase ensued much to everyone's amusement.

And there you go - welcome to Phil's Tekumel, where thing like that happened quite a lot... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 27, 2016, 05:53:42 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;887689
Just out of curiosity what colour scheme does the Gurek of Ngakku  sport? What colour did you use to represent  their flesh?

Shemek


Bronze mail and helmet, green cloaks, linen tunics; brown leather boots, belts, and other such bits. For their pallid look, use what you would use for Caucasians - it's light enough to be seen on the table, and stands out against the darker 'Samoa' / 'Red Earth' of everybody else.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 27, 2016, 05:58:15 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;887701
Enjoy!!! At your service.

H;0)


And watch the movies, too. Shot pretty much on location, the attacking Zulus are the attacking Zulus - the people making the movies were always hearing from the extras, saying, "Well, my grandfather said that..." and having the Zulu king played by his great-grandson...

They said that is made a heck of difference in how they approached the film-making...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 27, 2016, 06:19:12 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;887720
That's been a major problem for me in my reminiscences about playing D&D with Gary back in the early 70s.  I didn't keep notes (hell, I was a high school kid) so when people ask "what was it like" about all I can say is "fun."  Except, as you say, for the disasters.

To paraphrase Tolstoy, "Successful dungeon adventures are all alike, but unsuccessful ones each go wrong in their own uniquely horrible way."


Me too. I don't remember a lot of the minutiae, and my attempts at note keeping were complete disasters back then. I remember major encounters (especially the disastrous ones :D) and the fact that it took the guys several years to to get to 5th level. I have always loved low to mid level adventures, and so that's were they stayed. Didn't seem to be an issue with the guys as we played at least once a week back then and everyone religiously showed up to every game session. Now a days I could care less about XP, and what not. We play a few game sessions, and if the player wants to go up "a level" he demonstrates what he has done in game to warrant this increase, and I make a role. Sometimes progression is fast, and sometimes it aint. I also started using G Drive as a means of centralizing party docs, images, etc and this has made keeping track of things easier.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 27, 2016, 06:31:19 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;887719


1. Well, that's odd. I was assured that they had their very best people working on it, as that the troop lists had valuable information that was vital for doing RPGs. Wonder what happened?


2. Same here. These days, it seems to be all about one-shots, modules, pre-gens, and get-it-get-out-with-the-XP.


1. I checked the usual spots: Tekumel.com, Drive thru RPG, RPGNow, and no dice. I guess these were seen as being primarily for miniatures, which is probably seen by many as being not "real Tekumel".

2. Pardon me while I let out a big yawn, and try to stay awake. To each is own, and if that's what turns their crank then more power to them. None for me thank you. I'd sooner watch paint dry.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 27, 2016, 07:09:07 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;887723


1. I'm still surprised that this series still isn't out. The digital versions have exisited for at least five years, and it doesn;t seem like it would take much to simply upload the files to the web.

2. Agreed; I have a lot of fun doing this - I had a lot of wonderful conversations, like this one, over the excellent fish and chips in the Union Pub in Wakefield, across from my railway club's exhibition venue. It simply floored me that the guy next to me had been a driver for the Gresley A4s - it was like talking to Phil about Tekumel, to hear him tell me what it was like of the footplate of those incredible machines.

People talking about and exchanging information about their hobby has been a basic foundation block from the beginning - see also the "Domesday Book", where Gary and Dave first began to share their adventures. I believe in that kind of thing, and I'll keep doing it. To quote Phil: "Here's my Tekumel, now make it yours."


3. And there you go - welcome to Phil's Tekumel, where thing like that happened quite a lot... :)


1. Like I said in my previous post.

2. No kidding. I can tell you enjoy it, just like I do, and everyone else on this thread does. This is what the hobby is ultimately about, and this is kind of what I think Phil's primary motivation for using an RPG environment, to develop what started out as "an intellectual exercise", into a fully fledged world. If he were starting this today he would probably be using software, and such.
I felt the same way when I was talking to Shep Paine a few years back. He was doing things in the 60's and 70's that guys still can't achieve today. Some of his dioramas may look dated, but other ones are top shelf. These could still go toe-to-toe with dioramas from today's top modellers, IMO.

3. But Chirine, everybody knows that this can't be the "Real Tekumel".
"Real Tekumel" is about labial-dentals, and alveo-palatals, and ignoble endings, not about such base things as guns and energy weapons, and silly Benny Hill style chases.  Are you trying to trick us?:rolleyes:


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 27, 2016, 07:13:32 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;887724
Bronze mail and helmet, green cloaks, linen tunics; brown leather boots, belts, and other such bits. For their pallid look, use what you would use for Caucasians - it's light enough to be seen on the table, and stands out against the darker 'Samoa' / 'Red Earth' of everybody else.


That sounds interesting. I think I have some of those miniatures still kicking around in drawer somewhere. I'll have to take a look.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 27, 2016, 08:07:10 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;887719

3. This must be an "age thing". When I started playing D&D the notion of single unrelated scenarios was unthought of by me and my gaming circle. If anyone had suggested this the universal responsive would have been what's the point of playing a series of unlinked games? How boring! A campaign mindset was intuitive for us. After all, we played D&D primarily because we wanted to make our own fantasy epic like the Amber, or Elric, or Hawkmoon, or Conan stories. Damn, I feel old!

Same here. These days, it seems to be all about one-shots, modules, pre-gens, and get-it-get-out-with-the-XP.

Uncle, I must disagree that it's an "age thing". It's what I call "gaming ADHD", I suspect;).
I mean, I wasn't born when you started playing with Phil. That kinda disqualifies me from the age stuff, right:)?

And yet, while I'll do one-shots, these are used between campaigns, as "palate cleaners", to test what we're in mood to play next.
I only create pre-gens at player request, when some of my players don't want to be bothered with mechanics.
In my view, modules are harder to follow than a normal campaign, so I don't use them. Won't bore you with a lengthy blog post I wrote on it...:D
And I don't even know what "get-in-get-out-with-the-XP" is supposed to mean;). I'd guess it's special forces operations, but your PCs were doing that, too, so it's not that...
Oh, and I recently calculated that my average campaign, excluding the one-shots mentioned above, is the equivalent of over 100 normal-length sessions:D!

OTOH, what you're talking about seems to be the modus operandi of people that either don't get to play often, don't stay long at one game, or are just used to following modules.  Seems like there were many of those in your time, too, or Gary Gygax wouldn't have started writing modules at all.

So yeah, these are different playstyles, but not really age-dependent;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on March 27, 2016, 11:26:00 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;887725
And watch the movies, too. Shot pretty much on location, the attacking Zulus are the attacking Zulus - the people making the movies were always hearing from the extras, saying, "Well, my grandfather said that..." and having the Zulu king played by his great-grandson...

They said that is made a heck of difference in how they approached the film-making...


Agreed!!! Oh have I...

Hearing the yell of, "ZU LUU"!!! Off in the distance. The vistas and impi pouring over the hills gave me goosebumps as a kid. Great movie.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 29, 2016, 02:33:34 PM
Sorry about being quiet, lately; I'm suffering from from a flare-up of the gout that I had after last year's Gary Con - it happens when I get dehydrated - and just now getting back in shape.

It could be worse; got into work yesterday and found out that of my co-workers had had his foot amputated. Put my troubles in perspective, it did.

More later...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 29, 2016, 05:37:54 PM
I assume that raiding parties of Hlyss would work as a well trained team but not in any formal ordered ranks?
Is that a correct guess?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 29, 2016, 07:58:39 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;888104
Sorry about being quiet, lately; I'm suffering from from a flare-up of the gout that I had after last year's Gary Con - it happens when I get dehydrated - and just now getting back in shape.

It could be worse; got into work yesterday and found out that of my co-workers had had his foot amputated. Put my troubles in perspective, it did.

More later...


It sure does. There but for the grace... Take it easy and "see" you back here soon.

Shemek
Title: Army colours
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 29, 2016, 08:09:27 PM
Just out of curiosity. If the Tsolyani army wears blue armour, then are the following colours typically associated with the other armies of the Five Empires.

Mu'ugalavya: Red?
Salarvya: Black?
Yan Kor: Green.
Livyanu: Yellow?

For the Smaller States.

Pechano: Dun
Ghaton: ?
Saa Allaqiya: ?
N'luss: ?
Jannu: ?
Kilalammu: ?
Milumanaya: ?


Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 30, 2016, 01:45:43 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;887752
Uncle, I must disagree that it's an "age thing". It's what I call "gaming ADHD", I suspect;).
I mean, I wasn't born when you started playing with Phil. That kinda disqualifies me from the age stuff, right:)?

And yet, while I'll do one-shots, these are used between campaigns, as "palate cleaners", to test what we're in mood to play next.
I only create pre-gens at player request, when some of my players don't want to be bothered with mechanics.
In my view, modules are harder to follow than a normal campaign, so I don't use them. Won't bore you with a lengthy blog post I wrote on it...:D
And I don't even know what "get-in-get-out-with-the-XP" is supposed to mean;). I'd guess it's special forces operations, but your PCs were doing that, too, so it's not that...
Oh, and I recently calculated that my average campaign, excluding the one-shots mentioned above, is the equivalent of over 100 normal-length sessions:D!

OTOH, what you're talking about seems to be the modus operandi of people that either don't get to play often, don't stay long at one game, or are just used to following modules.  Seems like there were many of those in your time, too, or Gary Gygax wouldn't have started writing modules at all.

So yeah, these are different playstyles, but not really age-dependent;).


I think you are probably right. My problem is that I'm so much older then most of the people I meet in gaming; we don;t have much in common.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 30, 2016, 01:51:24 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;887794
Agreed!!! Oh have I...

Hearing the yell of, "ZU LUU"!!! Off in the distance. The vistas and impi pouring over the hills gave me goosebumps as a kid. Great movie.

H:0)


Done right on a big game table, it's just as terrifying. And, if you have a good set of rules that take into account the time intervals of volley fire and limited ammunition supplies, it gets quite nail-biting; the Quartermaster returns showed 19,100 rounds fired, 900 rounds left when the relief showed up. That's about nine rounds left per man...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 30, 2016, 01:55:08 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;888135
I assume that raiding parties of Hlyss would work as a well trained team but not in any formal ordered ranks?
Is that a correct guess?
=


Yes, very much so. We met them both as parties in the Underworlds, and at sea; we never fought them in a land battle, and I don't think there's any record of such in historical times.

They tended to fight a lot like commandos in the Underworlds; warriors front, magic-users providing support from the rear. One favorite tactic was to ambush us in larger rooms, where they could spread out and come at us from all sides.

Afloat, it was naval boarding parties, and they were pretty good at that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 30, 2016, 01:57:31 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;888169
It sure does. There but for the grace... Take it easy and "see" you back here soon.

Shemek


Thanks! I am doing better tonight, due to an infusion of lead from Bronze Age Miniatures. Stayed off the foot as much as I could, too, and got lots of water and Vitamin C. My colleague is doing pretty well; several of the day shift went to see him.

I'll try to keep up; I really enjoy this, and it helps keep me going. :)

EDIT: Okay, I had to add this... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 30, 2016, 02:04:26 AM
From Shemek hiTankolel:

Just out of curiosity. If the Tsolyani army wears blue armour, then are the following colours typically associated with the other armies of the Five Empires.

I edited your list; I'll follow up as this is from memory:

Mu'ugalavya: Red
Salarvya: Black
Yan Kor: Green.
Livyanu: Yellow; does vary, as they don't have a 'national color', but yellow is pretty common.

For the Smaller States.

Pechano: Dun
Ghaton: yellow and green
Saa Allaqiya: orange and white
N'luss: various, differs for each petty warlord. I've seen black, red, blue, and linen kilts, and armor in various shades - usually, the gaudier, the better. Mercenaries have trim in the national colors of their current employers.
Jannu: ? I'll have to look...
Kilalammu: None, really; a lot like the Nlyss, with each of the tribes having different colors. I'll look it up for you, of course...
Milumanaya: Varies by faction; browns, with some yellows; trims for whatever nation they get bribes from to be their 'loyal allies'.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 30, 2016, 11:24:07 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;888104
Sorry about being quiet, lately; I'm suffering from from a flare-up of the gout that I had after last year's Gary Con - it happens when I get dehydrated - and just now getting back in shape.

It could be worse; got into work yesterday and found out that of my co-workers had had his foot amputated. Put my troubles in perspective, it did.

More later...

I think I can only join Shemek hiTankolel's advice on taking it easy, Uncle...:)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;888228
I think you are probably right. My problem is that I'm so much older then most of the people I meet in gaming; we don;t have much in common.

Heh, even I've got the same issue at times:D!

My solution? I make them read the works I'm inspired by. I'll give them a synopsis for especially important ones. They're free to not bother, and suffer, too:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;888237
Livyanu: Yellow; does vary, as they don't have a 'national color', but yellow is pretty common.

With the Lyviani following "Hidden gods", this actually gives me an idea;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 30, 2016, 01:10:09 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;888361
With the Lyviani following "Hidden gods", this actually gives me an idea;)!


Something about "The King in Yellow" maybe?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 30, 2016, 01:19:56 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;888407
Something about "The King in Yellow" maybe?
=

Maybe:).
Or rather, I was imagining the Chthulhu gods getting to Tekumel, where impending doom doesn't impress nearly as much and equally powerful entities have said that doom isn't going to happen now. That should be a shock to them;)!
What bigger shocks they might suffer is up to the Referee's sick sense of humour.


BTW, there's a (semi-official) list with the comparative standings of legions (http://www.tekumel.com/eoasw1_04.html) that I just dug up. Uncle, do you see any old friends in there, and what do you think of their rankings?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 30, 2016, 08:52:34 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;888234


EDIT: Okay, I had to add this... :)


Barsoom! Who made the minis?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 30, 2016, 09:15:40 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;888361
I think I can only join Shemek hiTankolel's advice on taking it easy, Uncle...:)

Heh, even I've got the same issue at times:D!

My solution? I make them read the works I'm inspired by. I'll give them a synopsis for especially important ones. They're free to not bother, and suffer, too:).

With the Lyviani following "Hidden gods", this actually gives me an idea;)!


Thank you; I am. Another day today of bed rest and fluids, and as much sleep as I can manage. Doctor tomorrow, which will be interesting. Up for a bit to get some food, and answers... :)

Good solution - I wish I could get people here to do that. It seems that if it's not on the net, they can't be bothered. Makes for some lousy gaming, sad to say.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 30, 2016, 09:16:31 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;888407
Something about "The King in Yellow" maybe?
=


Precisely! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 30, 2016, 09:20:18 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;888410

BTW, there's a (semi-official) list with the comparative standings of legions (http://www.tekumel.com/eoasw1_04.html) that I just dug up. Uncle, do you see any old friends in there, and what do you think of their rankings?


It's not a bad list, actually; my copy is in my copy of the UK 'zine that it was originally published in. ("Eye of All-Seeing Wonder")

I do see a lot of old friends - and a lot of old enemies - and it's pretty accurate. It does not have any of the new legions that were established in Phil's campaigns, though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 30, 2016, 09:38:20 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;888541
Barsoom! Who made the minis?

Shemek


Yes, indeed!!! :) These are by David Soderberg, who runs Bronze Age Miniatures and I really like them. His site is:

http://www.bronzeagemin.com/ (http://www.bronzeagemin.com/)

And the specific line is here:

http://www.bronzeagemin.com/miniatures_html/32MM/SCI-FI/sci-fi28mm.htm (http://www.bronzeagemin.com/miniatures_html/32MM/SCI-FI/sci-fi28mm.htm)

Both his 'humans' and 'mutants' - you can use them as you like; I use the humans as Tekumelyani adventurers and other people - are really fun figures. Very, very dynamically posed, when they are in base-to-base contact, it really looks like there's a fight to the finish being staged. Most figures have at least one open hand, and are supplied with a variety of weapons. (And a lot of them, too!) Casting is crisp and clean, and they assemble with a very small amount of work.

I've built entire games around these figures. The 'Loshomon Canal' Braunstein is one, and I've made a complete set of Barsoom terrain tiles and scenery for the game table for skirmish games. I have a line on some flyers, both 'classic Michael Whelan illustration' and the recent movie. (It helps to have friends with connections.)

As you might gather, I really like these figures. They are everything I want in miniatures: dynamic action, reasonable detail, and the ability to tell stories on the game table. I good use of my birthday money, I thought... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 30, 2016, 10:02:35 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;888562
Yes, indeed!!! :) These are by David Soderberg, who runs Bronze Age Miniatures and I really like them. His site is:

http://www.bronzeagemin.com/ (http://www.bronzeagemin.com/)

And the specific line is here:

http://www.bronzeagemin.com/miniatures_html/32MM/SCI-FI/sci-fi28mm.htm (http://www.bronzeagemin.com/miniatures_html/32MM/SCI-FI/sci-fi28mm.htm)

Both his 'humans' and 'mutants' - you can use them as you like; I use the humans as Tekumelyani adventurers and other people - are really fun figures. Very, very dynamically posed, when they are in base-to-base contact, it really looks like there's a fight to the finish being staged. Most figures have at least one open hand, and are supplied with a variety of weapons. (And a lot of them, too!) Casting is crisp and clean, and they assemble with a very small amount of work.

I've built entire games around these figures. The 'Loshomon Canal' Braunstein is one, and I've made a complete set of Barsoom terrain tiles and scenery for the game table for skirmish games. I have a line on some flyers, both 'classic Michael Whelan illustration' and the recent movie. (It helps to have friends with connections.)

As you might gather, I really like these figures. They are everything I want in miniatures: dynamic action, reasonable detail, and the ability to tell stories on the game table. I good use of my birthday money, I thought... :)


Those are nice. What scale are they, 32mm? Do they look ok next to 25mm figures?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 31, 2016, 03:47:19 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;888548
Thank you; I am. Another day today of bed rest and fluids, and as much sleep as I can manage. Doctor tomorrow, which will be interesting. Up for a bit to get some food, and answers... :)

Good solution - I wish I could get people here to do that. It seems that if it's not on the net, they can't be bothered. Makes for some lousy gaming, sad to say.

Glad to hear you're recovering:)! Not much more one can tell on this matter.

And I must add that much, if not most or all of, say, Barsoom is on the Net. Not that I care how my players are going to find those books - if necessary, I can loan the first couple of them in translation. My players also seem to prefer reading them from the net, though;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;888551
It's not a bad list, actually; my copy is in my copy of the UK 'zine that it was originally published in. ("Eye of All-Seeing Wonder")

I do see a lot of old friends - and a lot of old enemies - and it's pretty accurate. It does not have any of the new legions that were established in Phil's campaigns, though.

Interesting - can you add some of them in the right ranks?
And could you add some funny notes on the "old friends and enemies" that aren't obvious from the descriptions, like command staff personalities?
Keep it short, of course. Only those legions that move more are of particular interest, and just knowing the names and allegiance of the legions of Phil's campaign would probably be enough!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 31, 2016, 10:38:59 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;888569
Those are nice. What scale are they, 32mm? Do they look ok next to 25mm figures?

Shemek


Yes, they are 32mm. I think they look fine next to modern 28mm figures, since there's a lot of variation in these; they look fine next to  the Wargods of Aegyptus or Tekumel Project figures that I have. They do look bigger on the table then the true 25mm Old Glory / Ral Partha figures I have - not surprising, considering that there's forty years' difference between them!

In general, I don't have a problem with the size; I think that my Barsoomians would be taller anyway, so it's not an issue. In practice, I've found that since my 25's are the line troops, they come out for the big battles, and the 28's get used for skirmish and RPG games - so there's no practical difference for me.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 31, 2016, 10:43:53 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;888633
Glad to hear you're recovering:)! Not much more one can tell on this matter.

And I must add that much, if not most or all of, say, Barsoom is on the Net. Not that I care how my players are going to find those books - if necessary, I can loan the first couple of them in translation. My players also seem to prefer reading them from the net, though;).


Interesting - can you add some of them in the right ranks?
And could you add some funny notes on the "old friends and enemies" that aren't obvious from the descriptions, like command staff personalities?
Keep it short, of course. Only those legions that move more are of particular interest, and just knowing the names and allegiance of the legions of Phil's campaign would probably be enough!


Thank you! I think it's the enforced bed rest; I'm off to see the doctor in an hour, and I suspect I'll get told to keep doing what I'm doing and stay on my back. I hate the 'down time', even though I really need it. :)

Agreed. The 'Net is a wonderful resource; I should have been more clear - most of the people I've met over the past decade will go as far as a Wiki article, but not much further then 250 - 750 words. If I can get them to look at an e-book or net page, then they kind of seem to rediscover the joys of simply reading.

Oh! Great idea! Let me see what I can do; I'm not going to get this done very quickly, but I'll see what I can do.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 31, 2016, 07:54:19 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;888703
Yes, they are 32mm. I think they look fine next to modern 28mm figures, since there's a lot of variation in these; they look fine next to  the Wargods of Aegyptus or Tekumel Project figures that I have. They do look bigger on the table then the true 25mm Old Glory / Ral Partha figures I have - not surprising, considering that there's forty years' difference between them!

In general, I don't have a problem with the size; I think that my Barsoomians would be taller anyway, so it's not an issue. In practice, I've found that since my 25's are the line troops, they come out for the big battles, and the 28's get used for skirmish and RPG games - so there's no practical difference for me.


Chirine,

I totally get what you're saying. I was just curious from an aesthetic point of view. Since, I no longer have a lot of the 25mm minis left, I have been slowly rebuilding with 28mm, as I don't see many 25mm ones being produced these days. The Ral Partha "revivification" is good news as there were quite a few good casts amongst them. I recently found some of my old hobbit miniatures (dated 1978), and I feel that they can hold up against anything cast today. They even have sculpted eyes, which is amazing given their age and size!  
What I have been doing for massed battles is using Phil's rules in EPT, where one mini will represent 10 or 20 men, and take it from there. It work's fine, and as far as I'm concerned the occasional epic underworld horde style battles can be painlessly portrayed without a large initial investment in time, miniatures, painting, etc. Any who, this is the way I have been doing for ages and have yet to get a complaint from my players.
BTW, what  current (or vintage RP) figure range would you suggest as good proxies for Mu'ugalavyani troops?  

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 31, 2016, 07:57:36 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;888706
Thank you! I think it's the enforced bed rest; I'm off to see the doctor in an hour, and I suspect I'll get told to keep doing what I'm doing and stay on my back. I hate the 'down time', even though I really need it. :)

Agreed. The 'Net is a wonderful resource; I should have been more clear - most of the people I've met over the past decade will go as far as a Wiki article, but not much further then 250 - 750 words. If I can get them to look at an e-book or net page, then they kind of seem to rediscover the joys of simply reading.

Oh! Great idea! Let me see what I can do; I'm not going to get this done very quickly, but I'll see what I can do.


Enjoy the rest while you can. Judging from your posts you seem to lead a somewhat hectic work life. Lie back, and catch up on your reading. :)

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 02, 2016, 12:25:18 AM
From Shemek hiTankolel:
Chirine,
I totally get what you're saying. I was just curious from an aesthetic point of view. Since, I no longer have a lot of the 25mm minis left, I have been slowly rebuilding with 28mm, as I don't see many 25mm ones being produced these days. The Ral Partha "revivification" is good news as there were quite a few good casts amongst them. I recently found some of my old hobbit miniatures (dated 1978), and I feel that they can hold up against anything cast today. They even have sculpted eyes, which is amazing given their age and size!
 

Agreed. I don't really see much a visual difference between, say, Reaper 28s and Bronze Age 32s, let along the Tekumel Project 28s. 25s, especially in 'true 25mm', are very few and hard to come by; I admit to having a huge 'installed base' of them due to my very early interest in the Old Guard figures, but we very early on standardized out at Phil's with the then-new Tom Meier sculpts from  Ral Partha as they were simply the best figures on the market at the time. A lot of the older Grenadier - let along the Hinchcliffe and Heritage USA lines - just didn't come close to what RP was doing.

Having the RP lines back is a wonderful thing - so many old friends are there!

What I have been doing for massed battles is using Phil's rules in EPT, where one mini will represent 10 or 20 men, and take it from there. It work's fine, and as far as I'm concerned the occasional epic underworld horde style battles can be painlessly portrayed without a large initial investment in time, miniatures, painting, etc. Any who, this is the way I have been doing for ages and have yet to get a complaint from my players.

Yes, exactly! That's how we got started out at Phil's, with using miniatures in the RPG sessions as needed. Back in the day, 'fantasy wargaming' was all about the big battles from Middle Earth or Hyboria, and the very few lines of 'fantasy' figures available were all geared to that market. We 'branched out' very quickly into raiding the historicals lines for suitable figures for RPGs - an awful lot of Lamming medievals met horrible fates in dungeons, over the years.

This kind of 'skirmish' gaming in RPGs was our bread and butter 'go to' mode for years, and I still play that way. It's fast, it's fun, and you can knock off a tight little fight in an afternoon or evening of play.

BTW, what  current (or vintage RP) figure range would you suggest as good proxies for Mu'ugalavyani troops?

There's a bunch of them; I'll need to have a look in the catalog, as they are in the throes of reorganizing the line - they have over 1,500 figures in their lines, and they are trying to put things in logical places. In general, look in the 'elves'; you'll see a lot of 'cook pot' helmets and big pauldrons, and these usually look pretty good as Tekumel figures. Many of the humans also work well; look for the classic Tsolyani burgonet helmet - Persians were Phil's first Yan Koryani, too. I'll see about getting you my lists... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 02, 2016, 12:30:30 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;888784
Enjoy the rest while you can. Judging from your posts you seem to lead a somewhat hectic work life. Lie back, and catch up on your reading. :)

Shemek


Thank you! What makes my work life hectic is not the job itself, but all the administrative changes that have been going on for the past year. These are now more or less done, and life is getting much nicer.

I am doing a lot better, tonight. My visit to the doctor was a good one; I have been taken off several medications, and put on a powerful anti-inflammatory that has reversed the situation. Two more days of rest, lots and lots of fluids, and things should be almost normal. I will have to be very careful in the future, but it's a known quantity and one I can deal with.

Read "The Stainless Steel Rat Joins The Circus", last night; still as much fun as ever! Keith Laumer is good for the soul - and the funny bone! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on April 02, 2016, 09:38:31 AM
Can I assume that to the untrained ear, "The Tongue of the Priests of Ksarul" is a ‎sibilant speech?

Are other languages also distinct to those that don't understand them?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 02, 2016, 01:15:18 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;889009
Can I assume that to the untrained ear, "The Tongue of the Priests of Ksarul" is a ‎sibilant speech?

Are other languages also distinct to those that don't understand them?
=


I would think so; the 'voice' he used when speaking as a Qol was always very sssibilant; they ssspeak with what might have been called a lisssp, I suppossse. But only on the 's'/sss sounds in the wordsss; unlike Thomar's Thunru'u major-domo, who's lisp was only in the 'th', as in 'eyethpoons' - "I packed the good eyethpoons, Mathter." Very distinct voices - Phil was a gifted actor, and had different accents for everyone; listening to him do conversations between NPCs was like listening to a radio drama from the Golden Age of radio, which is where I think he got it - there ain't much else to do, growing up in rural Idaho.

Yes. They do sound different, at least on the tapes I have of Phil pronouncing them, even to my non-linguist's ear. Yan Koryani sounds very different then Tsolyani, and so do all of the languages he created - even the 'related' ones have  different sound to them, so that a local is always able to tell that "Not from around here, eh?"

Game-wise, anyone would be able to tell what language somebody is speaking, especially if the eaves-dropper has had a decent upper-class education. Otherwise, I'd expect that they'd be able to identify the nearest foreign language and not much else.

Does this help, at all? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 02, 2016, 02:35:47 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;888978
From Shemek hiTankolel:


In general, look in the 'elves'; you'll see a lot of 'cook pot' helmets and big pauldrons, and these usually look pretty good as Tekumel figures. Many of the humans also work well; look for the classic Tsolyani burgonet helmet - Persians were Phil's first Yan Koryani, too. I'll see about getting you my lists... :)


I really need to go through the iron wind catalogue and see what they have. I figured what I want from the Tekumel Project and I'll send my order off soon. Decided to get a bunch of minis that I can use for regular encounters and NPC's. Monsters and what not can be improvised but  I want some actual Tsolyani figures that represent everyday situations.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 02, 2016, 02:44:22 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;888979
Thank you! What makes my work life hectic is not the job itself, but all the administrative changes that have been going on for the past year. These are now more or less done, and life is getting much nicer.

I am doing a lot better, tonight. My visit to the doctor was a good one; I have been taken off several medications, and put on a powerful anti-inflammatory that has reversed the situation. Two more days of rest, lots and lots of fluids, and things should be almost normal. I will have to be very careful in the future, but it's a known quantity and one I can deal with.

Read "The Stainless Steel Rat Joins The Circus", last night; still as much fun as ever! Keith Laumer is good for the soul - and the funny bone! :)


Good to hear everything is getting better. Admin has always been the bane of my working life.

Slippery Jim DiGriz, one of my favourite all time fictional characters right up there with Prospero, and not the one you're thinking of. ;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on April 02, 2016, 04:08:40 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;889022
Does this help, at all? :)


Very much thanks. Good to know that non-speakers can easily guess what the language is even if they don't speak it.
I wouldn't expect this to be true for ancient languages that only priests are familiar with. Would I be right?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 02, 2016, 06:41:09 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;889025
I really need to go through the iron wind catalogue and see what they have. I figured what I want from the Tekumel Project and I'll send my order off soon. Decided to get a bunch of minis that I can use for regular encounters and NPC's. Monsters and what not can be improvised but  I want some actual Tsolyani figures that represent everyday situations.


I'd suggest the 'Sokatis Regional Infantry with Halberd' from The Tekumel Project - it's a trooper leaning on a halberd looking bored, and it's the perfect figure for Sakbe road guards, market police, temple guards, city militia, and anybody else in that line of work. Really nice figures, and they paint up really well.

Re improvisation, I have something like 35 Nshe / Gelwhatever Cubes; fake ice cubes made of glass that I got for a whole 15 cents each at my usual surplus place...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 02, 2016, 06:43:33 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;889027
Good to hear everything is getting better. Admin has always been the bane of my working life.

Slippery Jim DiGriz, one of my favourite all time fictional characters right up there with Prospero, and not the one you're thinking of. ;)


Agreed, and I got a shoe on my right foot today for the first time in over a week. Life is much better, thank you.

The 'Retief' series is also a scream, made all that much funnier knowing that Keith Laumer was in the diplomatic service for most of his official career... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 02, 2016, 06:45:14 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;889038
Very much thanks. Good to know that non-speakers can easily guess what the language is even if they don't speak it.
I wouldn't expect this to be true for ancient languages that only priests are familiar with. Would I be right?
=


Happy to be of help!

Yes, you are right; it'd take somebody with a priestly education to be able to tell what ancient language was what.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 02, 2016, 10:40:52 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;889052

1. I'd suggest the 'Sokatis Regional Infantry with Halberd' from The Tekumel Project - it's a trooper leaning on a halberd looking bored, and it's the perfect figure for Sakbe road guards, market police, temple guards, city militia, and anybody else in that line of work. Really nice figures, and they paint up really well.

2. Re improvisation, I have something like 35 Nshe / Gelwhatever Cubes; fake ice cubes made of glass that I got for a whole 15 cents each at my usual surplus place...


1. That's what I was thinking. I plan on ordering about five or so of these guys, along with one or two of the other character miniatures. Seeing as how Shemek is a follower of Karakan I plan on converting the warrior priest of Karakan into a representation of my alter-ego. My original mini is a really old Citadel warrior of chaos (circa 1980's) with some kind of a "mace-axe", a spiky helmet, a shield and wearing chain mail and plate. He's really showing his age.  

2. Someone after my own heart. :D I've used everything and anything as proxies over the years, including beer caps for Battletech ground vehicles, and a piece of glass I found in Lake Ontario for a Nshe. The current or waves had worn it down into a really neat and smooth shape and I liked the way it felt. I also have used a river stone for an Eye. It just happened to be the right shape and size, in my opinion, and fit perfectly in my hand. I wish I knew what happened to these two items. :(  

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 02, 2016, 11:34:46 PM
From Shemek hiTankolel:

1. That's what I was thinking. I plan on ordering about five or so of these guys, along with one or two of the other character miniatures. Seeing as how Shemek is a follower of Karakan I plan on converting the warrior priest of Karakan into a representation of my alter-ego. My original mini is a really old Citadel warrior of chaos (circa 1980's) with some kind of a "mace-axe", a spiky helmet, a shield and wearing chain mail and plate. He's really showing his age.  

Had a few of the old Citadels - had to get them at Gen Con or Origins as they were not stocked hereabouts. You'll like the new Karakan priest - very nice casting! (I call it 'the new one' because I have a bunch of the Dave Sutherland sculpts...)

2. Someone after my own heart. :D I've used everything and anything as proxies over the years, including beer caps for Battletech ground vehicles, and a piece of glass I found in Lake Ontario for a Nshe. The current or waves had worn it down into a really neat and smooth shape and I liked the way it felt. I also have used a river stone for an Eye. It just happened to be the right shape and size, in my opinion, and fit perfectly in my hand. I wish I knew what happened to these two items. :(  

Well, yeah. Back then, we all had to improvise as we went along. My Mu'uglavyani logistics bearers are still lugging around the bags and tarps I lifted from a monogram Sherman tank kit, for example. I check out my local surplus places regularly - and IKEA has a lot of stuff useful for gaming, too.

Look in the old box in the back of the garage. Phil used to keep all of his stuff there, and you might have too... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 03, 2016, 08:44:13 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;889091


Look in the old box in the back of the garage. Phil used to keep all of his stuff there, and you might have too... :)


It's funny you say that. There actually is an old box in the back of the garage, in the bottom of my tool cabinet...

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 03, 2016, 10:05:05 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;889259
It's funny you say that. There actually is an old box in the back of the garage, in the bottom of my tool cabinet...

Shemek


And there you go. You find the most amazing things, this way. :)
Title: looking back at something Gronan was talking about...
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 03, 2016, 10:14:40 PM
Rewinding back a little bit in the thread, Gronan was talking about our play style. Back in the day, we were facing extermination at Third Mar; Phil had us in a really - and I do mean really - bad tactical situation with us being absurdly out-numbered and over-matched. We set up the figures, and I asked Gronan what tactical formation he wanted. he picked one that was very risky for the situation that we were in, but that did offer some great possibilities. Phil saw that I was not happy with his choice, but then was astonished that I went out there and did my best to carry out my general's orders.

It really threw him; in the vast majority of wargames like this, the differences between the players on one side could be used by the other side to win the battle. We, however, functioned as a unit; Phil couldn't get anything off us.

And Gronan pulled off a miracle - again. It was one of the very few times we trounced Phil.

Here's how it played out:

3.1401  The Might Of The Flame, And The Sharp Edge Of The Sword;

Summer, 2361 A. S.; A Dusty Plain Near The Town Of Mar


   The two men looked down from the low rise at the enemy formation. There was just enough wind to blow the dust away from them and off the empty plain in front of them. Empty of any buildings or large vegetation, that is; aside from the road north, the plain was full of an army of Yan Koryani and their allies.

   Chirine shaded his eyes against the facing sun. “My, my,” he observed mildly, “somebody sure has a lot of spare troops that seem to need to have something to do.”

   Korunme nodded.”and they’re across our line of march – and across the army’s supply road, too. I suppose it’s our duty to do something about that.”

   “Mmmm. With one legion of medium infantry, and a bunch of mercenary Shen replacements for the Shen legions with Prince Mirusiya? Kind of a tall order, there, Glorious General.”

   The Glorious General shrugged. “We have what we have. Stone soup, and all that. Any ideas?”

   Chirine thought for a moment, turned, and looked at their little force. It didn’t look like much, in comparison to what was out there awaiting them on the open plain. They were is a very, very bad position; just coming up the road, and with far too few troops for the job at hand. It looked to become a very bad day for the Tsolyani.

   “If you offer battle at all, ‘Inexorable Sea’.”

“Ah.” The formation known as ‘The Inexorable Sea’ consisted of a strong central phalanx with two smaller phalanxes on either flank. “Solid and steady. You always did like to play a conservative game.” Korunme looked out again at the enemy. “I think we’ll use the ‘Bow of Hrugga’, this time.”

Chirine eyed him. “Well, you are the general.” Korunme gave him a long look. “I’d best get into my fighting armor, eh, Glorious General?”

“Yes. If you would, please.”

Chirine saluted, turned, and left for his tent. Korunme followed him with his eyes, and was interrupted by a polite cough from one of his officers.

“Sir,” the young officer started, “Sir, I know he’s your friend and all that, but… He’s a Vimuhla priest, and… Well, sir, I thought he was being insubordinate, there…” He trailed off into an uncomfortable silence, as his general turned his gaze on the young officer.

After a long moment, Korunme started talking – slowly, and in a very restrained tone of voice. “That priest is not my friend. He’s my staff officer. Later on, assuming that we both survive today and have time to go off duty, then he’ll be my friend. In the meantime, he’s being a good soldier – and a better staff officer, by giving me his best professional opinion on what course of action I should be taking. He thinks I’ve picked a bad formation to deploy into; he may very well be right, and I’ve made the mistake of my career – which may just get us all killed.” Korunme paused, and gave his officer a long, hard look.

“And because he’s a very good soldier, he’s taking my decision and carrying it out, no matter just how stupid he thinks it is, because I’m in command. That priest is going to go down onto that plain and hold our center, all by himself, and he’ll follow my orders and attack into the mass of our enemy all by himself – and kill just as many of them as he can before they can kill him, so that as many of us as possible will survive this battle. Because he’s a very good soldier, he’s going to die so that you and me and this legion will live to serve the Seal Imperium and fight another day.”

Korumne took a deep breath. “So. Think on that, young man, and deploy the legion. We have a battle to fight.”

- from "To Serve The Petal Throne", Book Three - "Advance Standards!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 04, 2016, 12:02:38 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;889265
Rewinding back a little bit in the thread, Gronan was talking about our play style. Back in the day, we were facing extermination at Third Mar; Phil had us in a really - and I do mean really - bad tactical situation with us being absurdly out-numbered and over-matched. We set up the figures, and I asked Gronan what tactical formation he wanted. he picked one that was very risky for the situation that we were in, but that did offer some great possibilities. Phil saw that I was not happy with his choice, but then was astonished that I went out there and did my best to carry out my general's orders.

It really threw him; in the bast majority of wargames like this, the differences between the players on one side could be used by the other side to win the battle. We, however, functioned as a unit; Phil couldn't get anything off us.

And Gronan pulled off a miracle - again. It was one of the very few times we trounced Phil.

Here's how it played out:

3.1401  The Might Of The Flame, And The Sharp Edge Of The Sword;

Summer, 2361 A. S.; A Dusty Plain Near The Town Of Mar


   The two men looked down from the low rise at the enemy formation. There was just enough wind to blow the dust away from them and off the empty plain in front of them. Empty of any buildings or large vegetation, that is; aside from the road north, the plain was full of an army of Yan Koryani and their allies.

   Chirine shaded his eyes against the facing sun. “My, my,” he observed mildly, “somebody sure has a lot of spare troops that seem to need to have something to do.”

   Korunme nodded.”and they’re across our line of march – and across the army’s supply road, too. I suppose it’s our duty to do something about that.”

   “Mmmm. With one legion of medium infantry, and a bunch of mercenary Shen replacements for the Shen legions with Prince Mirusiya? Kind of a tall order, there, Glorious General.”

   The Glorious General shrugged. “We have what we have. Stone soup, and all that. Any ideas?”

   Chirine thought for a moment, turned, and looked at their little force. It didn’t look like much, in comparison to what was out there awaiting them on the open plain. They were is a very, very bad position; just coming up the road, and with far too few troops for the job at hand. It looked to become a very bad day for the Tsolyani.

   “If you offer battle at all, ‘Inexorable Sea’.”

“Ah.” The formation known as ‘The Inexorable Sea’ consisted of a strong central phalanx with two smaller phalanxes on either flank. “Solid and steady. You always did like to play a conservative game.” Korunme looked out again at the enemy. “I think we’ll use the ‘Bow of Hrugga’, this time.”

Chirine eyed him. “Well, you are the general.” Korunme gave him a long look. “I’d best get into my fighting armor, eh, Glorious General?”

“Yes. If you would, please.”

Chirine saluted, turned, and left for his tent. Korunme followed him with his eyes, and was interrupted by a polite cough from one of his officers.

“Sir,” the young officer started, “Sir, I know he’s your friend and all that, but… He’s a Vimuhla priest, and… Well, sir, I thought he was being insubordinate, there…” He trailed off into an uncomfortable silence, as his general turned his gaze on the young officer.

After a long moment, Korunme started talking – slowly, and in a very restrained tone of voice. “That priest is not my friend. He’s my staff officer. Later on, assuming that we both survive today and have time to go off duty, then he’ll be my friend. In the meantime, he’s being a good soldier – and a better staff officer, by giving me his best professional opinion on what course of action I should be taking. He thinks I’ve picked a bad formation to deploy into; he may very well be right, and I’ve made the mistake of my career – which may just get us all killed.” Korunme paused, and gave his officer a long, hard look.

“And because he’s a very good soldier, he’s taking my decision and carrying it out, no matter just how stupid he thinks it is, because I’m in command. That priest is going to go down onto that plain and hold our center, all by himself, and he’ll follow my orders and attack into the mass of our enemy all by himself – and kill just as many of them as he can before they can kill him, so that as many of us as possible will survive this battle. Because he’s a very good soldier, he’s going to die so that you and me and this legion will live to serve the Seal Imperium and fight another day.”

Korumne took a deep breath. “So. Think on that, young man, and deploy the legion. We have a battle to fight.”

- from "To Serve The Petal Throne", Book Three - "Advance Standards!"


Uncle,

Thank you for pulling back into Bethorm for awhile. Travelling the circles can be tiring. However, it always a pleasure to share in the adventures of the Glorious General and yourself. Hrugga's Bow indeed...Cliffhangers!!! They have been pulling my heartstrings lately.

I'm glad to hear you are back on your toes. I hope you are making the progress you want in your writing. I will be waiting for more...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 04, 2016, 12:28:12 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;889281
Uncle,

Thank you for pulling back into Bethorm for awhile. Travelling the circles can be tiring. However, it always a pleasure to share in the adventures of the Glorious General and yourself. Hrugga's Bow indeed...Cliffhangers!!! They have been pulling my heartstrings lately.

I'm glad to hear you are back on your toes. I hope you are making the progress you want in your writing. I will be waiting for more...

H:0)


Thank you! It's simply grand to be able to move my foot, again; I nearly jumped out of bed from the shock, last night, when I could do this without any pain.

Getting back into the swing of things; got some tharks in, and some thoats. I'm a happy camper... :)

I'm glad you like our adventures - we did have fun... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 04, 2016, 12:18:52 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;889265
Rewinding back a little bit in the thread, Gronan was talking about our play style. Back in the day, we were facing extermination at Third Mar; Phil had us in a really - and I do mean really - bad tactical situation with us being absurdly out-numbered and over-matched. We set up the figures, and I asked Gronan what tactical formation he wanted. he picked one that was very risky for the situation that we were in, but that did offer some great possibilities. Phil saw that I was not happy with his choice, but then was astonished that I went out there and did my best to carry out my general's orders.

It really threw him; in the vast majority of wargames like this, the differences between the players on one side could be used by the other side to win the battle. We, however, functioned as a unit; Phil couldn't get anything off us.

And Gronan pulled off a miracle - again. It was one of the very few times we trounced Phil.

Here's how it played out:

3.1401  The Might Of The Flame, And The Sharp Edge Of The Sword;

Summer, 2361 A. S.; A Dusty Plain Near The Town Of Mar


   The two men looked down from the low rise at the enemy formation. There was just enough wind to blow the dust away from them and off the empty plain in front of them. Empty of any buildings or large vegetation, that is; aside from the road north, the plain was full of an army of Yan Koryani and their allies.

   Chirine shaded his eyes against the facing sun. “My, my,” he observed mildly, “somebody sure has a lot of spare troops that seem to need to have something to do.”

   Korunme nodded.”and they’re across our line of march – and across the army’s supply road, too. I suppose it’s our duty to do something about that.”

   “Mmmm. With one legion of medium infantry, and a bunch of mercenary Shen replacements for the Shen legions with Prince Mirusiya? Kind of a tall order, there, Glorious General.”

   The Glorious General shrugged. “We have what we have. Stone soup, and all that. Any ideas?”

   Chirine thought for a moment, turned, and looked at their little force. It didn’t look like much, in comparison to what was out there awaiting them on the open plain. They were is a very, very bad position; just coming up the road, and with far too few troops for the job at hand. It looked to become a very bad day for the Tsolyani.

   “If you offer battle at all, ‘Inexorable Sea’.”

“Ah.” The formation known as ‘The Inexorable Sea’ consisted of a strong central phalanx with two smaller phalanxes on either flank. “Solid and steady. You always did like to play a conservative game.” Korunme looked out again at the enemy. “I think we’ll use the ‘Bow of Hrugga’, this time.”

Chirine eyed him. “Well, you are the general.” Korunme gave him a long look. “I’d best get into my fighting armor, eh, Glorious General?”

“Yes. If you would, please.”

Chirine saluted, turned, and left for his tent. Korunme followed him with his eyes, and was interrupted by a polite cough from one of his officers.

“Sir,” the young officer started, “Sir, I know he’s your friend and all that, but… He’s a Vimuhla priest, and… Well, sir, I thought he was being insubordinate, there…” He trailed off into an uncomfortable silence, as his general turned his gaze on the young officer.

After a long moment, Korunme started talking – slowly, and in a very restrained tone of voice. “That priest is not my friend. He’s my staff officer. Later on, assuming that we both survive today and have time to go off duty, then he’ll be my friend. In the meantime, he’s being a good soldier – and a better staff officer, by giving me his best professional opinion on what course of action I should be taking. He thinks I’ve picked a bad formation to deploy into; he may very well be right, and I’ve made the mistake of my career – which may just get us all killed.” Korunme paused, and gave his officer a long, hard look.

“And because he’s a very good soldier, he’s taking my decision and carrying it out, no matter just how stupid he thinks it is, because I’m in command. That priest is going to go down onto that plain and hold our center, all by himself, and he’ll follow my orders and attack into the mass of our enemy all by himself – and kill just as many of them as he can before they can kill him, so that as many of us as possible will survive this battle. Because he’s a very good soldier, he’s going to die so that you and me and this legion will live to serve the Seal Imperium and fight another day.”

Korumne took a deep breath. “So. Think on that, young man, and deploy the legion. We have a battle to fight.”

- from "To Serve The Petal Throne", Book Three - "Advance Standards!"


Uncle, in relation to another thread, what were the actual odds of you dying in a fight like that? A missed roll away, several missed rolls away:)?
I suspect there were some odds for it, knowing you, but correct me if I'm wrong;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 04, 2016, 01:11:16 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;888703
In general, I don't have a problem with the size; I think that my Barsoomians would be taller anyway, so it's not an issue.
Taller is a reasonable effect of the lower gravity on Barsoom. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 04, 2016, 01:26:50 PM
Quote from: Bren;889360
Taller is a reasonable effect of the lower gravity on Barsoom. :)


It can go either way. They're obviously marsupials, since they lay eggs:D!
So, maybe the Barsoomians are marsupials that wouldn't be tall enough if it wasn't for the gravity;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 04, 2016, 02:22:28 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;889365
It can go either way. They're obviously marsupials, since they lay eggs:D!
So, maybe the Barsoomians are marsupials that wouldn't be tall enough if it wasn't for the gravity;).
But our perspective is that of John Carter who is a (more or less) normal earth man. On Barsoom, with it's lower gravity, he will be taller than he will be on Earth. Similarly, the Barsoomians will be taller on Barsoom than they would be on earth. (And all of them are shorter than they would be in zero gravity.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 04, 2016, 02:22:45 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;889345
Uncle, in relation to another thread, what were the actual odds of you dying in a fight like that? A missed roll away, several missed rolls away:)?
I suspect there were some odds for it, knowing you, but correct me if I'm wrong;).


Well, in a normal fight it usually took a 16 or better on a d20 to hit me, and then you'd have the damage - usually a d6. I'd normally be good for about four rounds of combat, say in an Underworld, before I'd have to lay down and bleed for a while.

In a mass fight like this, with most likely four to eight opponents attacking at once - and at a range where I can't get to them, them having spears - Phil had four to eight chances at a +16 or better on a d20 per turn. At that point, and given that once I'm down in a melee, I'm already behind the odds simply by being swamped by vastly superior numbers. About all Phil's missing dice rolls can do is give me another turn in which to kill more of them, and hope that they break and run.

(These were Vriddi. Not bloody likely.)

I didn't even bother crunching the numbers for this fight. We figured that is was survival at stake, pure and simple, and we went into this assuming that we weren't going to make it. At that point, the goal was to hit them as hard as we could and kill as many of them as possible, so s to break their hold on our army's supply line. Lose a legion and some Shen, save the army up at Sunraya. Pretty straightforward, if somewhat ruthless.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 04, 2016, 05:22:34 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;889265
Korunme looked out again at the enemy. “I think we’ll use the ‘Bow of Hrugga’, this time.”


Damn, I was a ballsy little fucker.

Of course, if we failed I wouldn't have to worry about a court martial.  "Audace, audace, tojours l'audace!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 04, 2016, 06:31:49 PM
Also, I don't have Chirine's memory... I don't remember if I was thinking "I have a cunning plan," or "If we're going to die anyway, let's do it in a way that hurts them as much as possible."

The latter, I very much suspect.

I HATED the Eastern Desert campaign.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 04, 2016, 09:08:21 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;889421
Also, I don't have Chirine's memory... I don't remember if I was thinking "I have a cunning plan," or "If we're going to die anyway, let's do it in a way that hurts them as much as possible."

The latter, I very much suspect.

I HATED the Eastern Desert campaign.


I'm just plugging through Flamesong, and I had to laugh at how you are described Most Glorious General. Both the terms "parsimonious" and "miserly" are attributed to you. :D You must have really pissed off Phil with your exploits in the game.:p Didn't you mention in an earlier post that you trounced him on the battlefield? Would your victory at Mar also be part of the reason for Phil's wrath?
BTW, I also noticed that Captain Harchar is mentioned quite a few times. Were the Glorious General and Lord Chirine part of Captain Harchar's scheme to become the Governor of Mihallu?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 04, 2016, 10:31:47 PM
I thought Kutume was the parsimonious one.  He'd squeeze a Hlash until it dripped molten copper.

General Korunme never got involved with Harchar.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 04, 2016, 10:33:43 PM
PCs in Flamesong inlcude Kadarsha, Korunme, Kutume, and Qutmu (pronounced Kutmu).

Can't tell the K-name PCs without a scorecard...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 05, 2016, 01:43:56 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;889412
Damn, I was a ballsy little fucker.

Of course, if we failed I wouldn't have to worry about a court martial.  "Audace, audace, tojours l'audace!"


Court martial? We would have been lucky to get graves.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 05, 2016, 01:50:48 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;889421
Also, I don't have Chirine's memory... I don't remember if I was thinking "I have a cunning plan," or "If we're going to die anyway, let's do it in a way that hurts them as much as possible."

The latter, I very much suspect.

I HATED the Eastern Desert campaign.


It was very much the latter.

The back story on all this is that the other group had managed to get their invasion on the NE Frontier going, and Phil had managed to out-think them and get behind them with a pretty huge force. They were good tactically, but tended to lose sight of the big picture. Phil had them dead to rights; we came swanning up the road and blew his ambush, and he had the perfect opportunity to exterminate all of his players in both groups in one fell swoop. It would have ended the invasion, which would have ended the war, and we'd all have to roll up new PCs. In effect, a double TPK.

The only survivor would have been Kathy / Vrisa, who still had to survive the politics in Yan Kor.

The stakes were absurdly high, the odds against us absurdly high, and Gronan let Phil have it right between the eyes. The Saintly Old Professor was grouchy for weeks afterwards...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 05, 2016, 01:53:42 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;889437
I'm just plugging through Flamesong, and I had to laugh at how you are described Most Glorious General. Both the terms "parsimonious" and "miserly" are attributed to you. :D You must have really pissed off Phil with your exploits in the game.:p Didn't you mention in an earlier post that you trounced him on the battlefield? Would your victory at Mar also be part of the reason for Phil's wrath?

BTW, I also noticed that Captain Harchar is mentioned quite a few times. Were the Glorious General and Lord Chirine part of Captain Harchar's scheme to become the Governor of Mihallu?


Yes. Phil was very annoyed that Gronan had pulled it off in the face of overwhelming odds - he was also miffed that Gronan was also not spending his clan's money like the other group was.

The General wasn't on that little trip to Mihallu; the rest of us were. Dave would get the most off-the-wall ideas...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 05, 2016, 01:55:14 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;889444
I thought Kutume was the parsimonious one.  He'd squeeze a Hlash until it dripped molten copper.

General Korunme never got involved with Harchar.


Kutume was both cheap and greedy. Korunme was thrifty, both in money and lives.

And was damn grateful, too....
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 05, 2016, 01:56:25 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;889445
PCs in Flamesong inlcude Kadarsha, Korunme, Kutume, and Qutmu (pronounced Kutmu).

Can't tell the K-name PCs without a scorecard...


Is this why I need to have a 'cast of characters' in the book? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on April 05, 2016, 04:02:41 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;889470
Phil was also miffed that Gronan was also not spending his clan's money like the other group was.

Why would this bother him?

Also, did the other group ever thank you for saving their bacon?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 05, 2016, 05:07:38 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;889575
Why would this bother him?

This way, he wasn't racking up a list of favours to return;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 05, 2016, 07:25:49 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;889444
I thought Kutume was the parsimonious one.  He'd squeeze a Hlash until it dripped molten copper.

General Korunme never got involved with Harchar.


I looked back in the book, and you're right. I think I was getting confused by all of those "K's". Maybe Chirine should include a cast of characters listing for his book.
BTW, speaking of K characters, wasn't Karin Missum a PC as well? Judging how he's described in the novels, the player must have really enjoyed playing him over the top in Phil's games.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 05, 2016, 10:19:50 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;889642
I looked back in the book, and you're right. I think I was getting confused by all of those "K's". Maybe Chirine should include a cast of characters listing for his book.
BTW, speaking of K characters, wasn't Karin Missum a PC as well? Judging how he's described in the novels, the player must have really enjoyed playing him over the top in Phil's games.

Shemek


Missum was indeed a PC.

One OTHER day out in the desert I had a cohort of Legion of Red Devistation attached.  We were guarding a small fortress.  When the Milumanayani tribes attacked the attached NPC magic user stood outside the gates and threw a Doomkill... and Phil promptly rolled snake eyes out in the open, meaning the magic user dropped the Doomkill on his own feet, vaporizing himself... and the gates of the fortress.

Whereupon I turned to Karin Missum and said "Now I know why they gave me a cohort of Red Devistation."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 05, 2016, 10:23:27 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;889688
Missum was indeed a PC.

One OTHER day out in the desert I had a cohort of Legion of Red Devistation attached.  We were guarding a small fortress.  When the Milumanayani tribes attacked the attached NPC magic user stood outside the gates and threw a Doomkill... and Phil promptly rolled snake eyes out in the open, meaning the magic user dropped the Doomkill on his own feet, vaporizing himself... and the gates of the fortress.

Whereupon I turned to Karin Missum and said "Now I know why they gave me a cohort of Red Devistation."


Perfect. Gotta love double ones, when the opposition rolls them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 05, 2016, 10:26:48 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;889468
Court martial? We would have been lucky to get graves.


We would have been lucky to have pieces left big enough to put into graves.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 05, 2016, 10:32:40 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;889470
Yes. Phil was very annoyed that Gronan had pulled it off in the face of overwhelming odds - he was also miffed that Gronan was also not spending his clan's money like the other group was.

The General wasn't on that little trip to Mihallu; the rest of us were. Dave would get the most off-the-wall ideas...


Quote from: Big Andy;889575
Why would this bother him?

Also, did the other group ever thank you for saving their bacon?


Quote from: AsenRG;889595
This way, he wasn't racking up a list of favours to return;).


Well, part of it was that Phil liked gauds, trinkets, luxuries, and sybaritic living, especially in his fiction (Dying Earth and all that) and Chirine and I... pretty much ALL the PCs in our group, in fact... were of the mindset of "Pretty good is good enough."  To use a modern analogy, if somebody offered us a week at the Savoy with carte blanche in the dining room (bang chomp whimper!) we'd take it, but we'd be just as happy with Holiday Inn... the beds are horizontal, the sheets are clean, and nobody's trying to kill us in rude ways in our sleep.

Also, honestly, I don't think Phil ever really did understand that Korunme really did just want to be a good loyal soldier, follow orders, serve the Emperor loyally, and fight bravely.  I had no aspirations to political office, no desire to line my own nest, no hidden agenda.  Again, remember Phil's love for Dying Earth and Jack Vance in general.  And he never really got that if an officer shares the hardships and hazards of his men, they will follow him to Hell.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 05, 2016, 10:34:59 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;889473
Kutume was both cheap and greedy. Korunme was thrifty, both in money and lives.

And was damn grateful, too....


Yep.  Korunme realized that you couldn't win a battle without risking troops, and if you risked your troops you would lose some.

But way back in 1972 I got involved in a WW2 campaign, my very first.  And I was told 'if you lose all your tanks in the first battle, you won't have any for the second."  I never forgot that very trenchant little bit of advice.  We were in the middle of the bloody Milumanayani desert; there were no reinforcements or replacements, there was only us.
Title: Tsolayani legions
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 05, 2016, 10:37:51 PM
Chirine,

Given the fact that both you and the Glorious General spent a lot of time in military situations I have some technical questions concerning the Legions of Tsolyanu. With Phil’s keen understanding of classical warfare and his attention to details I figured you would have gamed out some these things over the years. The post is kind of kind of long, but enquiring minds want to know. So, here goes.
The Tsolyani Army is a well disciplined professional army, and I think that I am correct in presuming that there are probably quite a lot of similarities to the Roman (i.e. Marian) Army. From what we can see from Roman artwork, martial depictions are filled with images of close combat, which would indicate that they conducted their battles “up close and personal”.
The Romans fought in an institutionally prescribed manner, and given the nature of their military, close order drill was effectively implemented. For example, a stance employed that was common to the armatura practiced by soldiers consisted of the legionary standing with his left leg advanced behind the shield, and with the sword held horizontally by his side, ready to strike. Typically, the classic attack involved a body-slam with the shield to knock the opponent off-balance, and then a quick thrust to the belly with the gladius. Although a downward over the shield thrust, or one from beneath the shield was also probably used, as opportunities presented themselves. Even though Vegetus tells us in De Rei Militari, that this form of attack was preferred to slashing or cutting attacks, I should note that the latter attacks were also employed. This was particularly true when Rome was up against well armoured and trained enemies, where cuts and slashes on the legs, arms, or other exposed areas, were used to bring down or distract the foe so that the lethal thrust could be utilized. If we take a look at the daily martial training regime of the legionary which, among other things, consisted of slashes and cuts being practiced on a pell, it becomes evident that this form of attack was certainly employed, and taught.  
What type of tactics do the Tsolyani legions employ for close combat? Do they favour the Roman style of warfare or do they use a more “medieval style”? Are up close thrusting attacks preferred, or are slashing attacks more common? What is the typical Tsolyani sword like; do they use a short sword or a long sword?  Are they as well trained to fight in formation, use their swords and work together as a team like the Romans were?
I know that many of the legions are pike and spear formations. I would guess that these units probably employ the usual Macedonian or Hellenic “pushing” tactics, vis-à-vis pikes, shields, etc. Are the Tsolyani as tightly organised and disciplined as say Alexander’s troops were? Do these formations work in conjunction with skirmishers, heavy (non pike), medium, and light infantry in order to turn an enemy’s flanks?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 05, 2016, 10:45:03 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;889469
It was very much the latter.

The back story on all this is that the other group had managed to get their invasion on the NE Frontier going, and Phil had managed to out-think them and get behind them with a pretty huge force. They were good tactically, but tended to lose sight of the big picture. Phil had them dead to rights; we came swanning up the road and blew his ambush, and he had the perfect opportunity to exterminate all of his players in both groups in one fell swoop. It would have ended the invasion, which would have ended the war, and we'd all have to roll up new PCs. In effect, a double TPK.

The only survivor would have been Kathy / Vrisa, who still had to survive the politics in Yan Kor.

The stakes were absurdly high, the odds against us absurdly high, and Gronan let Phil have it right between the eyes. The Saintly Old Professor was grouchy for weeks afterwards...


I'm starting to remember a bit more of this, though I still will accept correction if I'm wrong.

Now, the rest of you need to realize that a major battle group like the enemy had would have organized military magic using contingents, and flying Hlaka scouts, and light infantry, et al.

We were a single legion on the march with no support.  We had no light troops so our only scouts were our own mediums, and we had only a few PC magic users.  We were simply in "transport mode," and frankly I was a tiny bit piqued when in Flamesong Phil refered to me "getting caught with my thumb up my arse."  I think we did pretty damn well.

I vaguely remember getting hemmed in at one point.  Sun Tzu always said never put your enemy on "death ground" where they cannot retreat, and we showed why; with "do or die" being the only choice, we did.

Also, though Phil was a pretty good tactician and quite knowledgeable about the ancient and medieval periods, much after the death of Richard III he lost all interest.  I, however, had been thoroughly schooled in Blitzkrieg by several people including Chirine... sometimes as a teammate, sometimes an observer, and sometimes recipient of his gentle attentions ( :eek: ).  So Blitzkrieg concepts were second nature to me.  I think I recall that I decided to punch through the enemy on a small front and follow up closely in classic armored attack style, hoping to get through the gap before the "shaft" of the "spear" was cut off.

I think, anyway.  Part of the reason I'm not sure is that it was 30 plus years ago, but also to paraphrase Tolstoy, "Successful battles are all alike, but each failed battle fails in its own horrific and usually painful way."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 05, 2016, 10:54:38 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;889697
Chirine,

Given the fact that both you and the Glorious General spent a lot of time in military situations I have some technical questions concerning the Legions of Tsolyanu. With Phil’s keen understanding of classical warfare and his attention to details I figured you would have gamed out some these things over the years. The post is kind of kind of long, but enquiring minds want to know. So, here goes.
The Tsolyani Army is a well disciplined professional army, and I think that I am correct in presuming that there are probably quite a lot of similarities to the Roman (i.e. Marian) Army. From what we can see from Roman artwork, martial depictions are filled with images of close combat, which would indicate that they conducted their battles “up close and personal”.
The Romans fought in an institutionally prescribed manner, and given the nature of their military, close order drill was effectively implemented. For example, a stance employed that was common to the armatura practiced by soldiers consisted of the legionary standing with his left leg advanced behind the shield, and with the sword held horizontally by his side, ready to strike. Typically, the classic attack involved a body-slam with the shield to knock the opponent off-balance, and then a quick thrust to the belly with the gladius. Although a downward over the shield thrust, or one from beneath the shield was also probably used, as opportunities presented themselves. Even though Vegetus tells us in De Rei Militari, that this form of attack was preferred to slashing or cutting attacks, I should note that the latter attacks were also employed. This was particularly true when Rome was up against well armoured and trained enemies, where cuts and slashes on the legs, arms, or other exposed areas, were used to bring down or distract the foe so that the lethal thrust could be utilized. If we take a look at the daily martial training regime of the legionary which, among other things, consisted of slashes and cuts being practiced on a pell, it becomes evident that this form of attack was certainly employed, and taught.  
What type of tactics do the Tsolyani legions employ for close combat? Do they favour the Roman style of warfare or do they use a more “medieval style”? Are up close thrusting attacks preferred, or are slashing attacks more common? What is the typical Tsolyani sword like; do they use a short sword or a long sword?  Are they as well trained to fight in formation, use their swords and work together as a team like the Romans were?
I know that many of the legions are pike and spear formations. I would guess that these units probably employ the usual Macedonian or Hellenic “pushing” tactics, vis-à-vis pikes, shields, etc. Are the Tsolyani as tightly organised and disciplined as say Alexander’s troops were? Do these formations work in conjunction with skirmishers, heavy (non pike), medium, and light infantry in order to turn an enemy’s flanks?


Chirine will be able to answer this more fully.  Tekumelyani legions are highly disciplined.  Their weapons tend to be on the short-ish side and often cut and thrust.  I conjecture that since so many of the best legions used pikes that Phil liked the Greek and Macedonian era better than the Roman.

When I saw Richard Lester's "Three Musketeers" I was taken with Richard Chamberlain's Aramis fighting Florentine, so I eventually prevailed on Phil to let Korunme study "Arruche," the Tsolyani two-weapon style.  It was good for duels or individual adventuring, but considered a rather effite "fancy boy" way of fighting for most soldiers.  To quote Cerebus the Aardvark, "give me a half dozen Panrovian dueling masters and I could conquer this backwater of a country."  But when my cohort, then wing, then legion, got down to serous slaughter I was capable and willing to pick up our unit's shield and weapon and get down and dirty with the best of them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 05, 2016, 11:39:08 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;889702
Chirine will be able to answer this more fully.  Tekumelyani legions are highly disciplined.  Their weapons tend to be on the short-ish side and often cut and thrust.  I conjecture that since so many of the best legions used pikes that Phil liked the Greek and Macedonian era better than the Roman.
You mean their backup weapons are on the short side, right? Pikes being notably not-short as weapons go.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 06, 2016, 02:55:44 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;889575
Why would this bother him?

Also, did the other group ever thank you for saving their bacon?


Because getting PCs to spend money on their legions was a quick and easy way to get them poor. Which meant that they'd have to go on adventures, to get more money.

Of course not. See also Gary Fine's book, "Shared Fantasy" for the way they played. These are the folks who brought you things like the slave revolt in Ferenara...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 06, 2016, 02:56:24 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;889595
This way, he wasn't racking up a list of favours to return;).


And that, too! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 06, 2016, 02:59:03 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;889642
I looked back in the book, and you're right. I think I was getting confused by all of those "K's". Maybe Chirine should include a cast of characters listing for his book.
BTW, speaking of K characters, wasn't Karin Missum a PC as well? Judging how he's described in the novels, the player must have really enjoyed playing him over the top in Phil's games.

Shemek


Karuim Missum was played by 'Fighting Bob' Brynaldsen, whose the owner of the biggest FLGS here in the Twin Cities. Bob went through USMC basic training twice; he liked it so much the first time that when he had the opportunity he did it again. Bob was, and still is, an elemental force of nature.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 06, 2016, 03:02:18 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;889688
Missum was indeed a PC.

One OTHER day out in the desert I had a cohort of Legion of Red Devistation attached.  We were guarding a small fortress.  When the Milumanayani tribes attacked the attached NPC magic user stood outside the gates and threw a Doomkill... and Phil promptly rolled snake eyes out in the open, meaning the magic user dropped the Doomkill on his own feet, vaporizing himself... and the gates of the fortress.

Whereupon I turned to Karin Missum and said "Now I know why they gave me a cohort of Red Devistation."


Karim Missum believed that frontal assaults were for sissies. A real warrior had himself launched by trebuchet into the midst of the foe.

The Red Devastators are all like that. :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 06, 2016, 03:04:52 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;889694
Well, part of it was that Phil liked gauds, trinkets, luxuries, and sybaritic living, especially in his fiction (Dying Earth and all that) and Chirine and I... pretty much ALL the PCs in our group, in fact... were of the mindset of "Pretty good is good enough."  To use a modern analogy, if somebody offered us a week at the Savoy with carte blanche in the dining room (bang chomp whimper!) we'd take it, but we'd be just as happy with Holiday Inn... the beds are horizontal, the sheets are clean, and nobody's trying to kill us in rude ways in our sleep.

Also, honestly, I don't think Phil ever really did understand that Korunme really did just want to be a good loyal soldier, follow orders, serve the Emperor loyally, and fight bravely.  I had no aspirations to political office, no desire to line my own nest, no hidden agenda.  Again, remember Phil's love for Dying Earth and Jack Vance in general.  And he never really got that if an officer shares the hardships and hazards of his men, they will follow him to Hell.


I think that this is very true. All we wanted to do was explore and adventure; we weren't worried about getting rich and famous. Same when we went on military campaigns; all we wanted to do was get the job done.

See also his comments about us in Fine's book. His views didn't change over the next decade - hence his bemused "Chirine, you've gone native."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 06, 2016, 03:05:37 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;889696
Yep.  Korunme realized that you couldn't win a battle without risking troops, and if you risked your troops you would lose some.

But way back in 1972 I got involved in a WW2 campaign, my very first.  And I was told 'if you lose all your tanks in the first battle, you won't have any for the second."  I never forgot that very trenchant little bit of advice.  We were in the middle of the bloody Milumanayani desert; there were no reinforcements or replacements, there was only us.


Agreed. And there were damn few of 'us', too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 06, 2016, 03:06:29 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;889698
I'm starting to remember a bit more of this, though I still will accept correction if I'm wrong.

Now, the rest of you need to realize that a major battle group like the enemy had would have organized military magic using contingents, and flying Hlaka scouts, and light infantry, et al.

We were a single legion on the march with no support.  We had no light troops so our only scouts were our own mediums, and we had only a few PC magic users.  We were simply in "transport mode," and frankly I was a tiny bit piqued when in Flamesong Phil refered to me "getting caught with my thumb up my arse."  I think we did pretty damn well.

I vaguely remember getting hemmed in at one point.  Sun Tzu always said never put your enemy on "death ground" where they cannot retreat, and we showed why; with "do or die" being the only choice, we did.

Also, though Phil was a pretty good tactician and quite knowledgeable about the ancient and medieval periods, much after the death of Richard III he lost all interest.  I, however, had been thoroughly schooled in Blitzkrieg by several people including Chirine... sometimes as a teammate, sometimes an observer, and sometimes recipient of his gentle attentions ( :eek: ).  So Blitzkrieg concepts were second nature to me.  I think I recall that I decided to punch through the enemy on a small front and follow up closely in classic armored attack style, hoping to get through the gap before the "shaft" of the "spear" was cut off.

I think, anyway.  Part of the reason I'm not sure is that it was 30 plus years ago, but also to paraphrase Tolstoy, "Successful battles are all alike, but each failed battle fails in its own horrific and usually painful way."


Nope; you got it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 06, 2016, 03:07:30 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;889702
Chirine will be able to answer this more fully.  Tekumelyani legions are highly disciplined.  Their weapons tend to be on the short-ish side and often cut and thrust.  I conjecture that since so many of the best legions used pikes that Phil liked the Greek and Macedonian era better than the Roman.

When I saw Richard Lester's "Three Musketeers" I was taken with Richard Chamberlain's Aramis fighting Florentine, so I eventually prevailed on Phil to let Korunme study "Arruche," the Tsolyani two-weapon style.  It was good for duels or individual adventuring, but considered a rather effite "fancy boy" way of fighting for most soldiers.  To quote Cerebus the Aardvark, "give me a half dozen Panrovian dueling masters and I could conquer this backwater of a country."  But when my cohort, then wing, then legion, got down to serous slaughter I was capable and willing to pick up our unit's shield and weapon and get down and dirty with the best of them.


Agreed with all this; I'll have a longer reply after I get some sleep.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 06, 2016, 03:10:08 AM
Quote from: Bren;889710
You mean their backup weapons are on the short side, right? Pikes being notably not-short as weapons go.


Yep. Secondary weapons include maces, axes, short swords, that kind of thing; it's going to be handy in a melee, it'll get used as a back-up to the long arm.

I personally like a short-sword and dagger combination, with a mace substituted for the short sword when I'm fighting anything in chitin. Small round buckler, too, in place of the dagger; I like to 'multi-task'... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 06, 2016, 03:11:02 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;889698
I'm starting to remember a bit more of this, though I still will accept correction if I'm wrong.

Now, the rest of you need to realize that a major battle group like the enemy had would have organized military magic using contingents, and flying Hlaka scouts, and light infantry, et al.

We were a single legion on the march with no support.  We had no light troops so our only scouts were our own mediums, and we had only a few PC magic users.  We were simply in "transport mode," and frankly I was a tiny bit piqued when in Flamesong Phil refered to me "getting caught with my thumb up my arse."  I think we did pretty damn well.

I vaguely remember getting hemmed in at one point.  Sun Tzu always said never put your enemy on "death ground" where they cannot retreat, and we showed why; with "do or die" being the only choice, we did.

Also, though Phil was a pretty good tactician and quite knowledgeable about the ancient and medieval periods, much after the death of Richard III he lost all interest.  I, however, had been thoroughly schooled in Blitzkrieg by several people including Chirine... sometimes as a teammate, sometimes an observer, and sometimes recipient of his gentle attentions ( :eek: ).  So Blitzkrieg concepts were second nature to me.  I think I recall that I decided to punch through the enemy on a small front and follow up closely in classic armored attack style, hoping to get through the gap before the "shaft" of the "spear" was cut off.

I think, anyway.  Part of the reason I'm not sure is that it was 30 plus years ago, but also to paraphrase Tolstoy, "Successful battles are all alike, but each failed battle fails in its own horrific and usually painful way."


Again, long answer on the way... :)
Title: I almost forgot to say...
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 06, 2016, 03:18:35 AM
I haz tharks!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 06, 2016, 10:17:38 AM
Quote from: Bren;889710
You mean their backup weapons are on the short side, right? Pikes being notably not-short as weapons go.


I didn't think I needed to state something that was...

...as plain as a pikestaff.:p
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 06, 2016, 10:31:02 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;889800
I didn't think I needed to state something that was...

...as plain as a pikestaff.:p
Point to the old(er) man.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 06, 2016, 02:33:34 PM
From Shemek hiTankolel: [I may have to break this into sections, sorry]

The Tsolyani Army is a well disciplined professional army, and I think that I am correct in presuming that there are probably quite a lot of similarities to the Roman (i.e. Marian) Army. From what we can see from Roman artwork, martial depictions are filled with images of close combat, which would indicate that they conducted their battles “up close and personal”.

Agreed. For some of Phil's source material, may I suggest "Spartacus", 1960; the final big battle was something Phil often quoted. Also "Alexander", 2004, "Gladiator, 2000, and HBO's "Rome" series; there are some great battle scenes in these.

The Romans fought in an institutionally prescribed manner, and given the nature of their military, close order drill was effectively implemented. For example, a stance employed that was common to the armatura practiced by soldiers consisted of the legionary standing with his left leg advanced behind the shield, and with the sword held horizontally by his side, ready to strike. Typically, the classic attack involved a body-slam with the shield to knock the opponent off-balance, and then a quick thrust to the belly with the gladius. Although a downward over the shield thrust, or one from beneath the shield was also probably used, as opportunities presented themselves. Even though Vegetus tells us in De Rei Militari, that this form of attack was preferred to slashing or cutting attacks, I should note that the latter attacks were also employed. This was particularly true when Rome was up against well armoured and trained enemies, where cuts and slashes on the legs, arms, or other exposed areas, were used to bring down or distract the foe so that the lethal thrust could be utilized. If we take a look at the daily martial training regime of the legionary which, among other things, consisted of slashes and cuts being practiced on a pell, it becomes evident that this form of attack was certainly employed, and taught.

Again, agreed. Phil was a very well-read Ancients scholar; he read a lot of the works you mention in the original.

He did not game the Roman 'imperial' period. He was very familiar with it, but I think he didn't game it mostly because a legion - at that time in gaming - just didn't look all that cool on the table. Phil was very much into 'spectacle', of the De Mille kind.

What type of tactics do the Tsolyani legions employ for close combat? Do they favour the Roman style of warfare or do they use a more “medieval style”? Are up close thrusting attacks preferred, or are slashing attacks more common? What is the typical Tsolyani sword like; do they use a short sword or a long sword?  Are they as well trained to fight in formation, use their swords and work together as a team like the Romans were?

Well, this gets complicated. Each legion has somewhat different weapon 'load-outs' - you need a copy of the "Armies' books. Some legions have long swords as their primary weapons, and would be considered to fight in a more 'medieval' way then the long-arm legions would fight. In general, I'd say 'yes' to all of the above, depending on the units involved. Long arm units will fight like the Macedonians in "Alexander"; shorter-arm units more like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zGjex6qDtM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zGjex6qDtM)

I know that many of the legions are pike and spear formations. I would guess that these units probably employ the usual Macedonian or Hellenic “pushing” tactics, vis-à-vis pikes, shields, etc. Are the Tsolyani as tightly organised and disciplined as say Alexander’s troops were? Do these formations work in conjunction with skirmishers, heavy (non pike), medium, and light infantry in order to turn an enemy’s flanks?

Agreed. Phil was an expert in the wars of the Diodachi, and loved to game them. His view of the way that the Tekumelyani fought is very much in line with that. The Legions are much more disciplined; most of them have been around for a very long time, and have a lot of 'regimental' tradition and spirit.

And yes, there are a lot of formations - Phil did an article on this for either 'The Dragon' or 'The Strategic Review'. All sorts of troop types are used, and in various unit and group formations.

I guess that the best way to summarize this is that what we do is phalanx warfare, but with no cavalry.

Does any of this help? A lot of your questions would be immediately answered if you had access to the references like my miniatures rules and the "Armies" series...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 06, 2016, 03:26:34 PM
Uncle, for a change that's not a question. But Chlen hide reminds of bronze, and I suspect some players might come to underestimate non-metalic weapons:).
So I'll just letave this link (http://www.ancient-origins.net/artifacts-other-artifacts/goujian-ancient-chinese-sword-defied-time-003279) here and let people come up with their own unrusting bronze and copper swords, sharp obsidian mace-picks and shearing Chlen hide axes;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 06, 2016, 03:41:04 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;889866
So I'll just letave this link (http://www.ancient-origins.net/artifacts-other-artifacts/goujian-ancient-chinese-sword-defied-time-003279)
Very nice.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 06, 2016, 07:40:41 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;889845
From Shemek hiTankolel: [I may have to break this into sections, sorry]


1. Agreed. For some of Phil's source material, may I suggest "Spartacus", 1960; the final big battle was something Phil often quoted. Also "Alexander", 2004, "Gladiator, 2000, and HBO's "Rome" series; there are some great battle scenes in these.

2. He did not game the Roman 'imperial' period. He was very familiar with it, but I think he didn't game it mostly because a legion - at that time in gaming - just didn't look all that cool on the table. Phil was very much into 'spectacle', of the De Mille kind.

3. Well, this gets complicated. Each legion has somewhat different weapon 'load-outs' - you need a copy of the "Armies' books.

Agreed. Phil was an expert in the wars of the Diodachi, and loved to game them. His view of the way that the Tekumelyani fought is very much in line with that. The Legions are much more disciplined;

4. And yes, there are a lot of formations - Phil did an article on this for either 'The Dragon' or 'The Strategic Review'. All sorts of troop types are used, and in various unit and group formations.


5. Does any of this help? A lot of your questions would be immediately answered if you had access to the references like my miniatures rules and the "Armies" series...


Thank you for your reply. What you said is kind of what I thought when I first read the sourcebooks and background in EPT all those years ago. It would seem that this has become a recurring theme for me in this thread.:D   You have really given me, and if I can take the liberty - us, a great insight into how Phil ran things. It really brings his games and novels to life when we find out what his motivation behind a certain action, or the creation of a thing was.

1. Have seen all of these films and shows many times, except for Alexander. The film was just too much for me to sit through. I'll have to give it another go sometime soon. HBO's Rome was the best series  never finished, IMO. That first battle scene in episode 1 was bang on for accuracy, right down to the whistle being employed by Centurion Lucius Vorenus. Although liberties were taken with historical characters and events, I really wish they had gone further on in the series.

2. From what I've learnt about Phil on this thread that does not surprise me at all. Although I think he probably liked HBO's Rome, especially Season 2...

3/5. I have Book iv - Salarvya, and although the load out is provided for each Nchesh, as I'm sure is the case for each Tsolyani Niqomi, or Yan Koryani Gurek, the actual specifics of how a unit or formation fights are not. The notes for each unit are quite sparse. I also don't recall the Sourcebook having this information either, but I could be wrong. Perhaps the rule sets do?
I can certainly see the Baron Ald as being one of the Diadochi. Not much of a stretch there.

4. I have this article printed out, and I really like it. In fact it is this article which gotten me interested in the minutiae of Tekumelyani military matters.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 06, 2016, 07:44:01 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;889866
Uncle, for a change that's not a question. But Chlen hide reminds of bronze, and I suspect some players might come to underestimate non-metalic weapons:).
So I'll just letave this link (http://www.ancient-origins.net/artifacts-other-artifacts/goujian-ancient-chinese-sword-defied-time-003279) here and let people come up with their own unrusting bronze and copper swords, sharp obsidian mace-picks and shearing Chlen hide axes;).


Very interesting article. I will have to incorporate a sword like this into my current campaign. Now if this sword was made of Chlen hide.... :idunno:

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 07, 2016, 01:41:45 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;889866
Uncle, for a change that's not a question. But Chlen hide reminds of bronze, and I suspect some players might come to underestimate non-metalic weapons:).
So I'll just letave this link (http://www.ancient-origins.net/artifacts-other-artifacts/goujian-ancient-chinese-sword-defied-time-003279) here and let people come up with their own unrusting bronze and copper swords, sharp obsidian mace-picks and shearing Chlen hide axes;).


Agreed; wonderful link, too!

Phil was pretty clear that chlen-hide was as tough as bronze, but as light as Delrin - an engineering plastic. My dad, a production engineer, gave me a pile of samples of various high-end engineering plastics to show Phil as samples of what Chlen-hide might weigh.

One of the very coolest things I've ever done was to hold a Bronze Age bronze sword, one of the many wonderful items in the Oakshott Collection here in the Twin Cities. Very light, superbly balanced, and simply deadly in the hand.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 07, 2016, 01:54:17 AM
From Shemek hiTankolel:Thank you for your reply. What you said is kind of what I thought when I first read the sourcebooks and background in EPT all those years ago. It would seem that this has become a recurring theme for me in this thread.:D   You have really given me, and if I can take the liberty - us, a great insight into how Phil ran things. It really brings his games and novels to life when we find out what his motivation behind a certain action, or the creation of a thing was.

You're very welcome! What's happening here in this thread is that you - and everyone else, of course - are drilling down through time to when we did all these things. We all shared a common set of information; we'd all see the same films, come out of the same fandoms, and had a lot in common in terms of the way we did things. Phil was very upfront in his early works about how he felt that Tekumel worked; the further back one can go, the more one learns.

1. Have seen all of these films and shows many times, except for Alexander. The film was just too much for me to sit through. I'll have to give it another go sometime soon. HBO's Rome was the best series  never finished, IMO. That first battle scene in episode 1 was bang on for accuracy, right down to the whistle being employed by Centurion Lucius Vorenus. Although liberties were taken with historical characters and events, I really wish they had gone further on in the series.

Agreed. I wound up fast-forwarding through "Alexander" to get to the good bits; there are some great individual scenes, but they feel like they're embedded in a lot of 'over-burden'.

"Rome" is good, because you get a lot of 'player-character' flavor; back in the day, Phil stuck us with a wagon full of gold - nine tons of coins, and laughed his head off as we tried to deal with it. I'll bet he laughed all over again when he saw the "Rome" episode... :)

2. From what I've learnt about Phil on this thread that does not surprise me at all. Although I think he probably liked HBO's Rome, especially Season 2...

He loved it; he owned the boxed set of all the episodes. He just wasn't into them on the table. Once the Roman Empire fell, he was into medievals in a very big way.

3/5. I have Book iv - Salarvya, and although the load out is provided for each Nchesh, as I'm sure is the case for each Tsolyani Niqomi, or Yan Koryani Gurek, the actual specifics of how a unit or formation fights are not. The notes for each unit are quite sparse. I also don't recall the Sourcebook having this information either, but I could be wrong. Perhaps the rule sets do?
I can certainly see the Baron Ald as being one of the Diadochi. Not much of a stretch there.


Yep; the information is there, but scattered around in the various texts. You get the weapons lists in "Armies", the formations in both "Legions" and my rules, and some notes on fighting styles in the Sourcebook. The problem here is that we knew all this stuff - Phil had Gronan and some of the other people in the group suit up and fight a melee in the back yard, for example.

Agreed!

4. I have this article printed out, and I really like it. In fact it is this article which gotten me interested in the minutiae of Tekumelyani military matters.

I'm glad to hear that you have it - it's what I consider one of the very basic texts for military action in the Five Empires.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 07, 2016, 01:55:32 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;889910
Very interesting article. I will have to incorporate a sword like this into my current campaign. Now if this sword was made of Chlen hide.... :idunno:

Shemek


Try it - and let us know what happens! :)
Title: Inserting a happy note...
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 07, 2016, 02:02:59 AM
If I may be permitted a personal observation, my blood work came back from my visit to the doctor's office. Gout can be a symptom of lead poisoning, and so I had it tested; I am happy to report that even after forty years of doing miniatures, I have no detectable amounts of lead in my system. My gout is plain old gout, nothing special... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 07, 2016, 02:35:51 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;889975
If I may be permitted a personal observation, my blood work came back from my visit to the doctor's office. Gout can be a symptom of lead poisoning, and so I had it tested; I am happy to report that even after forty years of doing miniatures, I have no detectable amounts of lead in my system. My gout is plain old gout, nothing special... :)


That's happy news, and I'm glad you always taking the appropriate precautions has worked out:).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 07, 2016, 07:57:36 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;889742
Karim Missum believed that frontal assaults were for sissies. A real warrior had himself launched by trebuchet into the midst of the foe.

The Red Devastators are all like that. :eek:


Hello Uncle,

Quick follow-up question. Could you give us a bit of history in regard to Fighting Bob's character? Was Karim a native, or a barbarian akin to the Glorious General? If you could say a bit about some of his exploits...?

Thanks,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 07, 2016, 10:12:28 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;889975
If I may be permitted a personal observation, my blood work came back from my visit to the doctor's office. Gout can be a symptom of lead poisoning, and so I had it tested; I am happy to report that even after forty years of doing miniatures, I have no detectable amounts of lead in my system. My gout is plain old gout, nothing special... :)


I'm happy for you to hear that.

Considering the conditions we used to work under at a certain place, I'm glad for MY sake as well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 07, 2016, 02:19:33 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;889990
That's happy news, and I'm glad you always taking the appropriate precautions has worked out:).


Thank you! I have always been very careful, and it looks like it's paid off... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 07, 2016, 02:27:42 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;890034
Hello Uncle,

Quick follow-up question. Could you give us a bit of history in regard to Fighting Bob's character? Was Karim a native, or a barbarian akin to the Glorious General? If you could say a bit about some of his exploits...?

Thanks,

H:0)


He was one of the 'washed up in Jakalla' Haida Pakallans from the 1973-74 group. I'm told that when Phil went around the table and asked everyone what they wanted to be, Bob announced that he wanted to be Emperor. This, as you might guess, left Phil speechless, Phil having just done his introduction to Tekumel and Tsolyanu.

Bob went up through the ranks like an artillery barrage, as casualties in Red Devastation are usually pretty high - and welcomed, as a sign of devotion to Lord Vimuhla. Bob was, and still is, very dangerous on the table because he's both ruthless, brave, honorable, and smart.

My all-time favorite story is when the Tsolyani want to know if Baron Ald is in Ke'er; Bob volunteers to find out. Phil expected the usual PC sneak in and out, but Bob simply marched Red Devastation north, panicking everyone on both sides, banged on the gates of the city, asked if the baron was in, and on being told "no" simply marched back home again. Everybody was astonished, and more then a little aghast at the genie that they'd let out of the bottle.

He's like that in real life, too; an unstoppable force of nature... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 07, 2016, 02:30:00 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;890048
I'm happy for you to hear that.

Considering the conditions we used to work under at a certain place, I'm glad for MY sake as well.


True, true. I'm amazed that we're still alive, after that particular gig. I think of it every time I run across a tire weight.

looking back on it, I'm still amazed that we managed to survive the best and the worst that the game industry and the hobby has thrown at us, over the decades, and still managed to have a little fun along the way.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 07, 2016, 03:41:18 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;889975
My gout is plain old gout, nothing special... :)
While I like to think I am special, my doctor assures me that unremarkable results are what one really wants on a medical test. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 07, 2016, 04:32:15 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;890111
He was one of the 'washed up in Jakalla' Haida Pakallans from the 1973-74 group. I'm told that when Phil went around the table and asked everyone what they wanted to be, Bob announced that he wanted to be Emperor. This, as you might guess, left Phil speechless, Phil having just done his introduction to Tekumel and Tsolyanu.

Bob went up through the ranks like an artillery barrage, as casualties in Red Devastation are usually pretty high - and welcomed, as a sign of devotion to Lord Vimuhla. Bob was, and still is, very dangerous on the table because he's both ruthless, brave, honorable, and smart.

My all-time favorite story is when the Tsolyani want to know if Baron Ald is in Ke'er; Bob volunteers to find out. Phil expected the usual PC sneak in and out, but Bob simply marched Red Devastation north, panicking everyone on both sides, banged on the gates of the city, asked if the baron was in, and on being told "no" simply marched back home again. Everybody was astonished, and more then a little aghast at the genie that they'd let out of the bottle.

He's like that in real life, too; an unstoppable force of nature... :)

I think we should ask for special emphasis on his PC:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;890112
True, true. I'm amazed that we're still alive, after that particular gig. I think of it every time I run across a tire weight.

looking back on it, I'm still amazed that we managed to survive the best and the worst that the game industry and the hobby has thrown at us, over the decades, and still managed to have a little fun along the way.

Was the best or the worst harder to survive, Uncle:p?

Quote from: Bren;890126
While I like to think I am special, my doctor assures me that unremarkable results are what one really wants on a medical test. :)

Your doctor is Rincewind;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 07, 2016, 04:59:56 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;890137
Your doctor is Rincewind;)?
I don't get the joke, but no, not that I know of.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 07, 2016, 05:09:34 PM
Quote from: Bren;890140
I don't get the joke, but no, not that I know of.


Rincewind is the guy who says that boredom is underrated:).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 08, 2016, 07:49:14 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;890111
He was one of the 'washed up in Jakalla' Haida Pakallans from the 1973-74 group. I'm told that when Phil went around the table and asked everyone what they wanted to be, Bob announced that he wanted to be Emperor. This, as you might guess, left Phil speechless, Phil having just done his introduction to Tekumel and Tsolyanu.

Bob went up through the ranks like an artillery barrage, as casualties in Red Devastation are usually pretty high - and welcomed, as a sign of devotion to Lord Vimuhla. Bob was, and still is, very dangerous on the table because he's both ruthless, brave, honorable, and smart.

My all-time favorite story is when the Tsolyani want to know if Baron Ald is in Ke'er; Bob volunteers to find out. Phil expected the usual PC sneak in and out, but Bob simply marched Red Devastation north, panicking everyone on both sides, banged on the gates of the city, asked if the baron was in, and on being told "no" simply marched back home again. Everybody was astonished, and more then a little aghast at the genie that they'd let out of the bottle.

He's like that in real life, too; an unstoppable force of nature... :)


Thanks!!! Good stuff!!! Was there anytime, when the Professor really caught caught you guys with your kilts down?

You guys seem to have gotten the best of the Professor quite a bit...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Rincewind1 on April 08, 2016, 07:51:06 AM
I verify Bren's claims - I am definitely not his doctor.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 08, 2016, 10:03:30 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;890111

He's like that in real life, too; an unstoppable force of nature... :)


An excellent description of both the player and the character.

In real life that's why, when comic book stores, game stores, and other 'nerd hobby' retailers close shop on a daily basis, "The Source" is still going strong after all these years.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 08, 2016, 02:21:09 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;890137

Was the best or the worst harder to survive, Uncle:p?


The 'worst'. Several times, it was nearly fatal. As in 'real life fatal'.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 08, 2016, 02:27:43 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;890260
Thanks!!! Good stuff!!! Was there anytime, when the Professor really caught caught you guys with your kilts down?

You guys seem to have gotten the best of the Professor quite a bit...

H:0)


The slave revolt in Ferenara.

Tu'umnra. How not to run a fief. In a very big way.

Temple of Sarku in Bey Su; it was so bad he reused the scene in "Man of Gold".

The shipwreck that ended our first voyage with Harchar. It was the one and only time I used 'Divine Intervention' in the campaign.

Invading Mihallu. A train wreck of the first order.

Third Battle of Mar.

Our second shipwreck, near Sunraya. Yes, that's right, a shipwreck in the middle of a stinking desert.

The Sirsum micro-campaign.

These are the ones that come instantly to mind. They were bad enough, thank you.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 08, 2016, 02:41:34 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;890335
The slave revolt in Ferenara.

Tu'umnra. How not to run a fief. In a very big way.

Temple of Sarku in Bey Su; it was so bad he reused the scene in "Man of Gold".

The shipwreck that ended our first voyage with Harchar. It was the one and only time I used 'Divine Intervention' in the campaign.

Invading Mihallu. A train wreck of the first order.

Third Battle of Mar.

Our second shipwreck, near Sunraya. Yes, that's right, a shipwreck in the middle of a stinking desert.

The Sirsum micro-campaign.

These are the ones that come instantly to mind. They were bad enough, thank you.


Oh my...!!! Sorry to bring up bad times. Will the above be include in TStPT? Since you mention it though. Could you say a bit more about the Temple of Sarku and the desert shipwreck incidents...

Thanks a bunch!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 09, 2016, 10:35:05 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;890340
Oh my...!!! Sorry to bring up bad times. Will the above be include in TStPT? Since you mention it though. Could you say a bit more about the Temple of Sarku and the desert shipwreck incidents...

Thanks a bunch!!!

H:0)


Well, these were not 'bad times'; these were nights / game sessions where Phil was at his very best, and simply carried us away on the wings of his imagination. We had what I think it 'immersion' in bucket loads, as Phil grew up in the Golden Age of Radio - between the serials and the dramas, he learned at a very young age how to grab and hold an audience.

(The bad times I've had stemmed from the treachery, back-stabbing, lying, rumor-mongering, thefts, frauds, slanders, and similar such activities that have been - and still are - one of the least positive aspects of gaming culture here in the Twin Cities. Anyway...)

All of these incidents will be in TStPT; I am telling you what happened, or discussing it if and when it affects what we did in the campaign. Back in my day, the referee / GM was assumed to be intellectually honest, and a neutral party. Yes, the opposing NPCs had to be played, but it was always - at least by the people that I played with - a basic tenet that the NPCs would be played as beings just as tough and just as smart as we were. There was none of the "GM has power over the players" or "the players must be protected from the GM' that I see being discussed; the players made their own way in the world, and had what I think is being called 'player agency'; we called it 'you made the bed, now lie in it'. It was always assumed that we were responsible for our actions, and ready to face any consequences that arose as a result.

In TStPT, you meet a lot of people, most of whom are simply trying to make a life for themselves in a hostile world and in a particular society. Tekumel, as played by Phil, is not a 'nice' place; it is not Disneyland. Lots of very bad things happen to a lot of decent people, and so my books is more the story of how they cope and survive then anything else. That's the way we played, for all those nights in Phil's basement, and I'd be lying to you if I 'spun' the book any other way.

Without doing too much of a 'spoiler', Eyloa got us lost (again) and we wound up in the lower levels of the Temple of Sarku in Bey Sy - when the Worm Prince was there. So, we got his guards, the temple guards, hordes of skull-faced priests and priestesses, and all the stinking shambling Undead you can imagine. We got chased all over the place, including one absolutely harrowing bit where we had to cross a very narrow ledge while fighting off the Vorodla, the flying Undead. (Ral Partha 01-028, "Winged Gremlin War Party", which I had painted up and which Phil just loved. So, of course, he sent them off to fight us...) It was a very scary night, and Phil was at the top of his form. We survived, but we had to change our kilts. Several times.

Phil loved the scene so much, he used it in "Man of Gold" but with Harsan and Co. as the hapless targets.

Our shipwreck in the Dry Bay of Su'um came right after our little jaunt to Blackmoor. Arneson / Harchar simply could not keep his hands off the stupid dimension hopper, and had a habit of not checking the settings before he pushed the 'go' button. Typical player-character, really. The big galley wound up being dropped in the Tsolyani Army's lap, and I had a heck of a time getting Harchar and his merry crew out of trouble. Luckily for me, I had confiscated one of the other PC's 3,000,000 kaitars / GP - I gave him a writ on the Imperium for the cash, so he didn't actually lose anything - and bought up all the iron and steel stuff that Blackmoor was entirely too well-stocked with.

So, as our 'honest sea-faring merchants' are about to take the high ride, I just happened to casually mention to Prince Mirusiya that all these loyal subjects of the Imperium are friends of mine, and that I just happen to have enough iron and steel to hand to equip four Imperial legions, and would the Highborn be willing to accept same as a personal gift from my humble self? The Highborn allowed that he would be delighted to accept such a magnanimous gift, tore up the documents, and inquired if I had any thoughts about my career - why, there just happened to be a Deputy Imperial Governorship open in Hekellu! - and also casually mentioned that his good friend, the Disposer of Meku, had a place in his clan all ready for me and that - by another wonderful coincidence! - the Highborn just happened to have a Patent of Nobility with my name on it with his Imperial Self.

Harchar and his crew vanished into the desert, never to be seen again - we met up with him in Jakalla, later on; he'd bought a new ship with the insurance money - and I got a nice 'career motivational enhancement opportunity'.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 10, 2016, 01:44:06 AM
Apropos of "sword and planet" I'm currently rereading Llana of Gathol.  Makes me want to find some cheap plastic boats between 3" and a foot long, some tinsel and trim, and some gun looking things, and have a Barsoomian fleet action at next GaryCon.

I know somebody who still has a copy of TSR's "Warriors of Mars".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 10, 2016, 03:58:56 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;890576
Apropos of "sword and planet" I'm currently rereading Llana of Gathol.  Makes me want to find some cheap plastic boats between 3" and a foot long, some tinsel and trim, and some gun looking things, and have a Barsoomian fleet action at next GaryCon.

I know somebody who still has a copy of TSR's "Warriors of Mars".


How many copies of the rules do you need? This was one of the games that Paul Stormberg wanted me to run in his 'Legends of Wargaming Area' at this past Gary Con; as he didn't have any copies of the rules for me to use, I put The Missus, Queen of the Internet, on the case to get me some. She found this:

https://archive.org/details/WarriorsOfMarsTheWarfareOfBarsoomInMiniature1974 (https://archive.org/details/WarriorsOfMarsTheWarfareOfBarsoomInMiniature1974)

And we ran off half a dozen copies for the game. These are now, of course, surplus to requirements; I scrapped the flyers I was scratch-building, as my heart just wasn't in it after all the screaming and shouting that went on. Paul also insisted that I use my bucket load of original Heritage figures, in order to fit within his rules for his area. I'm scrapping out these as well - the Bronze Age figures are so much nicer! I had also bought a heap of dowels to make flying stands, and give them that '70s look; not sure what I'll do with those.

Boats from the dollar store; decoration from the same source. Radium cannon from dowels - easy to build, quick to paint - with steel bases and magnets to hold them on the decks until they get shot off.

I love Barsoom; I hate 'gamer politics'...
Title: Milestone on the Sakbe road!
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 10, 2016, 04:03:26 AM
Look at this! 250 pages! 2,500 posts and replies! 45,614 views! Who would have thought? :)

Keep those questions and comments coming in, everyone - this is your thread, not mine!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 10, 2016, 01:24:17 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;890584
Look at this! 250 pages! 2,500 posts and replies! 45,614 views! Who would have thought? :)

Keep those questions and comments coming in, everyone - this is your thread, not mine!


Huzzah! Keep it coming. This thread is an amazing resource for primary information, and can easily be used as a springboard for our own Tekumel games. This thread has cleared up a lot things for me regarding Tekumel. Nice to see how and why things were done a certain way in Phil's games. Even though I didn't know Phil personally,having only carried on a brief email correspondence with him, judging from what you and the Glorious General have told us he probably would have enjoyed this thread as well (especially when you two guys tell us about pulling the professor's beard;)). Thank you for sharing your memories Chirine.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 10, 2016, 01:54:22 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;890556


1(The bad times I've had stemmed from the treachery, back-stabbing, lying, rumor-mongering, thefts, frauds, slanders, and similar such activities that have been - and still are - one of the least positive aspects of gaming culture here in the Twin Cities. Anyway...)



2Without doing too much of a 'spoiler', Eyloa got us lost (again) and we wound up in the lower levels of the Temple of Sarku in Bey Sy - when the Worm Prince was there. So, we got his guards, the temple guards, hordes of skull-faced priests and priestesses, and all the stinking shambling Undead you can imagine. We got chased all over the place, including one absolutely harrowing bit where we had to cross a very narrow ledge while fighting off the Vorodla, the flying Undead. (Ral Partha 01-028, "Winged Gremlin War Party", which I had painted up and which Phil just loved. So, of course, he sent them off to fight us...) It was a very scary night, and Phil was at the top of his form. We survived, but we had to change our kilts. Several times.

Phil loved the scene so much, he used it in "Man of Gold" but with Harsan and Co. as the hapless targets.


1. A lot of that still goes on. This is why I stick with the same guys that I've gamed with for the last 30+ years. Even though this means I GM a group of 3, the lack of aggro is worth the trade off.

2. That is one of my favourite parts in the book, along with the Tolek Kana pits. BTW, am I correct in presuming that the events in A Death of Kings are accounts of your adventures with Harchar to Tsolie and Salarvya, with Harsan "replacing" Chirine?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 10, 2016, 06:05:35 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;890698
Huzzah! Keep it coming. This thread is an amazing resource for primary information, and can easily be used as a springboard for our own Tekumel games. This thread has cleared up a lot things for me regarding Tekumel. Nice to see how and why things were done a certain way in Phil's games. Even though I didn't know Phil personally,having only carried on a brief email correspondence with him, judging from what you and the Glorious General have told us he probably would have enjoyed this thread as well (especially when you two guys tell us about pulling the professor's beard;)). Thank you for sharing your memories Chirine.


You're welcome! Happy to be of help! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 10, 2016, 06:12:02 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;890709
1. A lot of that still goes on. This is why I stick with the same guys that I've gamed with for the last 30+ years. Even though this means I GM a group of 3, the lack of aggro is worth the trade off.

2. That is one of my favourite parts in the book, along with the Tolek Kana pits. BTW, am I correct in presuming that the events in A Death of Kings are accounts of your adventures with Harchar to Tsolie and Salarvya, with Harsan "replacing" Chirine?

Shemek.


1. Yep. As recently as a couple of weeks ago, even. So, I let people do their own organizing, and simply sit back and watch the fracas. I don;t do much actual gaming, as a result, but life is both much quieter and more peaceful.

2. No, not really. What Phil used to do is use us as his 'pathfinders' - in the military sense, not the game - and let us explore areas of Tekumel that he hadn't really given much thought to. We'd go out there, ask him questions, and he'd make very detailed notes after the game session. These would get used both as 'local color' in the novels, and in future game sessions - had one of the 1990s gamers tell me about an island that they'd visited, and I told them everything I knew about the place. They were astonished - what Phil was doing was taking the notes he'd made a decade before and consulting them when the next group of players dropped by.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 10, 2016, 08:39:10 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;890584
Look at this! 250 pages! 2,500 posts and replies! 45,614 views! Who would have thought? :)

Keep those questions and comments coming in, everyone - this is your thread, not mine!

Glad to see the thread being a success:)!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;890768
1. Yep. As recently as a couple of weeks ago, even. So, I let people do their own organizing, and simply sit back and watch the fracas. I don;t do much actual gaming, as a result, but life is both much quieter and more peaceful.

2. No, not really. What Phil used to do is use us as his 'pathfinders' - in the military sense, not the game - and let us explore areas of Tekumel that he hadn't really given much thought to. We'd go out there, ask him questions, and he'd make very detailed notes after the game session. These would get used both as 'local color' in the novels, and in future game sessions - had one of the 1990s gamers tell me about an island that they'd visited, and I told them everything I knew about the place. They were astonished - what Phil was doing was taking the notes he'd made a decade before and consulting them when the next group of players dropped by.

The Professor was a cagey man. Scouting areas is exactly what PCs are best at;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 10, 2016, 08:53:58 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;890808
Glad to see the thread being a success:)!

The Professor was a cagey man. Scouting areas is exactly what PCs are best at;)!


Well, I do hope people find it useful. I've been around for a while, and I thought that folks might find it useful to learn from my mistakes... :)

He was indeed. He'd get us out there, to where he thought it might be fun to go, and then we'd spark his imagination with our questions and observations. I think it bears mentioning again that the right side of the table, from Phil's chair, was Artists' Row - Kathy, Chris, and Ken all drawing as we went along; the left side of the table was the very inquisitive players - usually Jean, Mike, Mike, Greg, and Erica; the end of the table was my little corner, where I took notes of the passing scene and painted like a maniac, trying to keep up with the action. Phil would have to literally 'create on the fly', as we went along. It was an astonishing performance.

The next day, Phil would retire to his home office, type up the notes from the previous night's game, and work them into the current novel. One of the joys I had, when I made all the back-up copies of his papers, was finding all these notes and seeing our adventures from his perspective. Fascinating; utterly fascinating!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 10, 2016, 09:26:35 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;890814


The next day, Phil would retire to his home office, type up the notes from the previous night's game, and work them into the current novel. One of the joys I had, when I made all the back-up copies of his papers, was finding all these notes and seeing our adventures from his perspective. Fascinating; utterly fascinating!


It would be nice if you could somehow do a side by side, so to speak, comparing what you experienced in your own words, and what Phil saw in his own words. Where someone is sitting in relation to the Screen can sometimes skew perceptions.
Although this would probably get someone, or something all hot and bothered.:rolleyes:

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 10, 2016, 10:26:24 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;890822
It would be nice if you could somehow do a side by side, so to speak, comparing what you experienced in your own words, and what Phil saw in his own words. Where someone is sitting in relation to the Screen can sometimes skew perceptions.
Although this would probably get someone, or something all hot and bothered.:rolleyes:

Shemek


I could; I think it would be a useful thing for potential GMs. The 'after game' talks with Phil on the weekends we were down there were always fascinating. My position is that I'm simply an archivist; I simply report the data, as it is, and point out connections and correlations to other data in the archives. From there, I take take the position that you, the end user, have to make your own interpretations and decisions. Some people, however, feel that you need to have the data interpreted for you.

Missed the little fracas on the Official Tekumel Facebook Page between the two Directors over this kind of thing, did you? And people wonder why I don't want to work for them... :eek:

I could be very catty about this, but I'm having a grand night building boats for the Missuma River Yacht Club and I don't want to spoil my good mood. (River / harbor lighters, actually but let's not get technical.) Photo on my blog in today's post. Shall we just cast off for adventure, then?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 10, 2016, 10:44:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;890835


I could be very catty about this, but I'm having a grand night building boats for the Missuma River Yacht Club and I don't want to spoil my good mood. (River / harbor lighters, actually but let's not get technical.) Photo on my blog in today's post. Shall we just cast off for adventure, then?


Why do I think last years' GaryCon Jakallan Underworld Adventure just got potentially much sillier?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 10, 2016, 11:19:34 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;890835
I could; I think it would be a useful thing for potential GMs. The 'after game' talks with Phil on the weekends we were down there were always fascinating. My position is that I'm simply an archivist; I simply report the data, as it is, and point out connections and correlations to other data in the archives. From there, I take take the position that you, the end user, have to make your own interpretations and decisions. Some people, however, feel that you need to have the data interpreted for you.

Missed the little fracas on the Official Tekumel Facebook Page between the two Directors over this kind of thing, did you? And people wonder why I don't want to work for them... :eek:

I could be very catty about this, but I'm having a grand night building boats for the Missuma River Yacht Club and I don't want to spoil my good mood. (River / harbor lighters, actually but let's not get technical.) Photo on my blog in today's post. Shall we just cast off for adventure, then?


I know from my experience, both in gaming and at work, that it's often quite funny how two people involved in the exact same situation, contemporaneously, can have such different recollections of what happened. IMO, it would be great to see something like this from Phil's game.

I'm not sure what happened at the "official" page, as I don't ever go there. I don't even have a facebook account. :o No doubt it was something petty and ultimately silly, judging from your experiences. I think what you are doing on this thread is more useful and interesting than some sanctioned body.
BTW, who made the current folks over there the ultimate authority on what Tekumel is, and how much of it can be shared? Was this Phil's wish? It would seem like he made a pact with the Pariah Gods, and didn't fully appreciate what this entailed.:jaw-dropping:

Building is always great. I am currently doing the finishing touches on my module for this month's game, which is this week.:cheerleader: It is a long forgotten and buried shrine dedicated to the Pariah Gods, from the Latter Times. It is unique because it is not dedicated to a single deity, but to many. Not only are the three main ones there, but some new ones as well. This should cause some major head scratching amongst the group. :teehee: Like Phil said in one of the Sourcebooks, the three known Pariah Gods are... I anticipate much gnashing of teeth, pulling of hair, and rending of garments; not necessarily in that order.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 10, 2016, 11:37:50 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;890837
Why do I think last years' GaryCon Jakallan Underworld Adventure just got potentially much sillier?


Nope; ain't gonna happen. I play Jakalla 'straight', right out of the book, as it's funny enough that way.

The Missuma River Yacht Club is the name given to my players to my little fleet of ships and boats that figure in some of our adventures. They range in size from a simple log raft about the size of an index card to the mighty 'Nemesis', the big 2' long galley that's a former dispatch galley from Jakalla. And there's always the Hlyss nest ship, and Harchar's big Tnek; I just like building things.:)

Nonoe of this stuff is ever likely to be seen in public again; you probably missed the latest antics where the latest game publisher who wanted to work with me got threatened with the loss of their potential license to publish Tekumel stuff. They were told to "shut Chirine up", or else. Quite the scene at Gary Con on Sunday, I gather:D. Somebody really does hate me, I was told.:rolleyes:

>shrug< Not my problem, any more, and my blood pressure is half what it used to be as a result.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 10, 2016, 11:58:36 PM
From Shemek hiTankolel:
I know from my experience, both in gaming and at work, that it's often quite funny how two people involved in the exact same situation, contemporaneously, can have such different recollections of what happened. IMO, it would be great to see something like this from Phil's game.

Agreed. I think people would be fascinated.

I'm not sure what happened at the "official" page, as I don't ever go there. I don't even have a facebook account. :o No doubt it was something petty and ultimately silly, judging from your experiences. I think what you are doing on this thread is more useful and interesting than some sanctioned body.
BTW, who made the current folks over there the ultimate authority on what Tekumel is, and how much of it can be shared? Was this Phil's wish? It would seem like he made a pact with the Pariah Gods, and didn't fully appreciate what this entailed.:jaw-dropping:


One of the Directors finally read a letter of Phil's from 1976 to a friend where he spelled out what he wanted to do and where he wanted to go with Tekumel in the future. I read this letter in 2012, and pointed it out to them. I was told not to say anything about it, as Phil may have said something which contradicts the Officially Approved and Authorized Interpretation currently being promoted. One of the other Directors told him to shut up about it, as material by Phil has to be "properly interpreted" by the right people.

Same thing with the tapes I have of Phil being interviewed about things like the Temple of Belkhanu or the city of Thraya; I offered copies of these to the same people, but was told that there is no interest in them as they are "not officlal" and "would need to be properly interpreted".

>shrug< Not my issue / problem, any more; the stuff will be preserved in my files like it has been for decades.

I will not comment on the formation of the organization; suffice it to say that they made a mistake when they started in on my family - who were the ones who witnessed their license when it was signed. Bad idea, if you ask me.

Building is always great. I am currently doing the finishing touches on my module for this month's game, which is this week.:cheerleader: It is a long forgotten and buried shrine dedicated to the Pariah Gods, from the Latter Times. It is unique because it is not dedicated to a single deity, but to many. Not only are the three main ones there, but some new ones as well. This should cause some major head scratching amongst the group. :teehee: Like Phil said in one of the Sourcebooks, the three known Pariah Gods are... I anticipate much gnashing of teeth, pulling of hair, and rending of garments; not necessarily in that order.

Oh, I agree; building stuff is what keeps me sane. Let's get back to the fun, and leave all the crap behind...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 11, 2016, 12:16:13 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;890848
From Shemek hiTankolel:
I know from my experience, both in gaming and at work, that it's often quite funny how two people involved in the exact same situation, contemporaneously, can have such different recollections of what happened. IMO, it would be great to see something like this from Phil's game.

Agreed. I think people would be fascinated.

I'm not sure what happened at the "official" page, as I don't ever go there. I don't even have a facebook account. :o No doubt it was something petty and ultimately silly, judging from your experiences. I think what you are doing on this thread is more useful and interesting than some sanctioned body.
BTW, who made the current folks over there the ultimate authority on what Tekumel is, and how much of it can be shared? Was this Phil's wish? It would seem like he made a pact with the Pariah Gods, and didn't fully appreciate what this entailed.:jaw-dropping:


One of the Directors finally read a letter of Phil's from 1976 to a friend where he spelled out what he wanted to do and where he wanted to go with Tekumel in the future. I read this letter in 2012, and pointed it out to them. I was told not to say anything about it, as Phil may have said something which contradicts the Officially Approved and Authorized Interpretation currently being promoted. One of the other Directors told him to shut up about it, as material by Phil has to be "properly interpreted" by the right people.

Same thing with the tapes I have of Phil being interviewed about things like the Temple of Belkhanu or the city of Thraya; I offered copies of these to the same people, but was told that there is no interest in them as they are "not officlal" and "would need to be properly interpreted".

>shrug< Not my issue / problem, any more; the stuff will be preserved in my files like it has been for decades.

I will not comment on the formation of the organization; suffice it to say that they made a mistake when they started in on my family - who were the ones who witnessed their license when it was signed. Bad idea, if you ask me.

Building is always great. I am currently doing the finishing touches on my module for this month's game, which is this week.:cheerleader: It is a long forgotten and buried shrine dedicated to the Pariah Gods, from the Latter Times. It is unique because it is not dedicated to a single deity, but to many. Not only are the three main ones there, but some new ones as well. This should cause some major head scratching amongst the group. :teehee: Like Phil said in one of the Sourcebooks, the three known Pariah Gods are... I anticipate much gnashing of teeth, pulling of hair, and rending of garments; not necessarily in that order.

Oh, I agree; building stuff is what keeps me sane. Let's get back to the fun, and leave all the crap behind...


What a waste! It's because of these types of attitudes that Tekumel will continue to languish, and lie in obscurity. They are not doing either Phil or themselves any favours. Bunch of bullshit. You are right let's get back to the fun.
Some questions on traps, as I have a long corridor that is crying out for some attention.
What were the kinds of mechanical traps that Phil would throw at you guys?
What was the worst trap you encountered in the Underworld? Does one stand out?
Did you guys have much dealings with the Pariah Gods or their  agents/followers? When I think of those who follow say, the Goddess, I picture some mad Cthulhu cultist type. Was this the case with the Pariah followers you met?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 11, 2016, 02:00:16 AM
From Shemek hiTankolel:What a waste! It's because of these types of attitudes that Tekumel will continue to languish, and lie in obscurity. They are not doing either Phil or themselves any favours. Bunch of bullshit.

Ah, but the important thing is to enhance the prestige and status of these people. Making Tekumel popular isn't their concern - they said so.

It only gets my blood pressure up.

You are right let's get back to the fun.
Some questions on traps, as I have a long corridor that is crying out for some attention.
What were the kinds of mechanical traps that Phil would throw at you guys?


Floors that would pivot down, dropping you onto a bed of spikes; deadfalls where stepping on a tile or something would drop a stone weight onto you and seal the corridor as well; walls on pivots that would swing out and crush you; fake 'secret doors' that dropped you into a sewer; in short, keep it simple but deadly.

And back up the traps with live guardians; Phil always had some Undead or something waiting for us to get distracted saving the casualties.

What was the worst trap you encountered in the Underworld? Does one stand out?

The juggernaut tomb car of Rekmelish III, in the Jakalla Underworld. The thing slides around the outer passage and can either crush you or trap you - or both, depending on when you get caught in the cycle.

Did you guys have much dealings with the Pariah Gods or their  agents/followers?

Not really; we tried to avoid them as much as we could.

When I think of those who follow say, the Goddess, I picture some mad Cthulhu cultist type. Was this the case with the Pariah followers you met?

Nope; they were all perfectly reasonable people, aside from being just as fanatical and devoted to their religion as we were. They'd try to kill us, we'd try to kill them, and it was all just the normal 'day at the office' for both; nothing personal about it. Now, fighting the Hlyss or Ssu, on the other hand...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 11, 2016, 06:59:49 AM
Uncle, I'm not going to ask about past dark ages:).
Instead, here's a link for Bethorm, for everyone (else) that prefers those rules, or just wants an atlas of Kurt Hills.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jeffdee/1039135390

The Kickstarter begins on April 13th;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 11, 2016, 09:27:50 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;890848
One of the Directors finally read a letter of Phil's from 1976 to a friend where he spelled out what he wanted to do and where he wanted to go with Tekumel in the future. I read this letter in 2012, and pointed it out to them. I was told not to say anything about it, as Phil may have said something which contradicts the Officially Approved and Authorized Interpretation currently being promoted. One of the other Directors told him to shut up about it, as material by Phil has to be "properly interpreted" by the right people.

Same thing with the tapes I have of Phil being interviewed about things like the Temple of Belkhanu or the city of Thraya; I offered copies of these to the same people, but was told that there is no interest in them as they are "not officlal" and "would need to be properly interpreted".
So these folks are want to turn “Official Tekumel” into the one holy, not so catholic, but apostolic church of Phil? Weird!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 11, 2016, 11:55:13 AM
Bren, the comparison is closer than it seems at first glance, I suspect.
Quote from: chirine ba kal;890814
Well, I do hope people find it useful. I've been around for a while, and I thought that folks might find it useful to learn from my mistakes... :)

He was indeed. He'd get us out there, to where he thought it might be fun to go, and then we'd spark his imagination with our questions and observations. I think it bears mentioning again that the right side of the table, from Phil's chair, was Artists' Row - Kathy, Chris, and Ken all drawing as we went along; the left side of the table was the very inquisitive players - usually Jean, Mike, Mike, Greg, and Erica; the end of the table was my little corner, where I took notes of the passing scene and painted like a maniac, trying to keep up with the action. Phil would have to literally 'create on the fly', as we went along. It was an astonishing performance.

The next day, Phil would retire to his home office, type up the notes from the previous night's game, and work them into the current novel. One of the joys I had, when I made all the back-up copies of his papers, was finding all these notes and seeing our adventures from his perspective. Fascinating; utterly fascinating!

Excellent organization you had there! And a rather talented team, I might add.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 11, 2016, 01:50:39 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;890861
From Shemek hiTankolel:What a waste! It's because of these types of attitudes that Tekumel will continue to languish, and lie in obscurity. They are not doing either Phil or themselves any favours. Bunch of bullshit.

Ah, but the important thing is to enhance the prestige and status of these people. Making Tekumel popular isn't their concern - they said so.

It only gets my blood pressure up.

You are right let's get back to the fun.
Some questions on traps, as I have a long corridor that is crying out for some attention.
What were the kinds of mechanical traps that Phil would throw at you guys?


Floors that would pivot down, dropping you onto a bed of spikes; deadfalls where stepping on a tile or something would drop a stone weight onto you and seal the corridor as well; walls on pivots that would swing out and crush you; fake 'secret doors' that dropped you into a sewer; in short, keep it simple but deadly.

And back up the traps with live guardians; Phil always had some Undead or something waiting for us to get distracted saving the casualties.

What was the worst trap you encountered in the Underworld? Does one stand out?

The juggernaut tomb car of Rekmelish III, in the Jakalla Underworld. The thing slides around the outer passage and can either crush you or trap you - or both, depending on when you get caught in the cycle.

Did you guys have much dealings with the Pariah Gods or their  agents/followers?

Not really; we tried to avoid them as much as we could.

When I think of those who follow say, the Goddess, I picture some mad Cthulhu cultist type. Was this the case with the Pariah followers you met?

Nope; they were all perfectly reasonable people, aside from being just as fanatical and devoted to their religion as we were. They'd try to kill us, we'd try to kill them, and it was all just the normal 'day at the office' for both; nothing personal about it. Now, fighting the Hlyss or Ssu, on the other hand...


Uncle,

If possible could you elaborate a bit in regard to the juggernaut tomb car of Rekmelish III? Maybe a handdrawn diagram or a bit more detail on how it works? It sounds dreadfully cool!!!

Also could you give us a bit advice in creative campagining such as "dressing" encounters, the underworld, and "our Tekumel"?

Thanks

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 11, 2016, 02:18:23 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;890911
Uncle, I'm not going to ask about past dark ages:).
Instead, here's a link for Bethorm, for everyone (else) that prefers those rules, or just wants an atlas of Kurt Hills.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jeffdee/1039135390

The Kickstarter begins on April 13th;).


Thanks!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 11, 2016, 02:22:14 PM
Quote from: Bren;890933
So these folks are want to turn “Official Tekumel” into the one holy, not so catholic, but apostolic church of Phil? Weird!


Not really; it's the cult of The Saintly Old Professor, with His True Prophets who - being, quote, "bi-sexual persons of color" - are the only ones intelligent enough and indoctrinated enough to properly interpret the Holy Words for you. Raw data from Phil is not acceptable; it must be reworked to suit the needs of the Holy Ones.

And it's the blood pressure meds for me...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 11, 2016, 02:26:42 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;890959
Bren, the comparison is closer than it seems at first glance, I suspect.

Excellent organization you had there! And a rather talented team, I might add.


That's why they all had to be expelled from the Holy Church by the Holy Ones. A lot of very talented people got driven away from Phil's table; the night that Kathy showed up and handed me a copy of her letter telling them where to stuff it was traumatic. It was also in the middle of the production of the "Adventures on Tekumel" books, which is why her artwork suddenly stops being used.

If I was going to be catty, I'd do a web search and see how much stuff was produced by us in the 1980s, and how much was produced by them in the 1990s, 2000s, and 2010s...

OOO! Chirine is being rude again! I want my pills, dang it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 11, 2016, 02:32:45 PM
Blood pressure, Montressor, blood pressure.

The best revenge is to live happily.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 11, 2016, 02:37:57 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;890993
Uncle,

If possible could you elaborate a bit in regard to the juggernaut tomb car of Rekmelish III? Maybe a handdrawn diagram or a bit more detail on how it works? It sounds dreadfully cool!!!

Also could you give us a bit advice in creative campagining such as "dressing" encounters, the underworld, and "our Tekumel"?

Thanks

H:0)


It's part of the Jakalla Underworld; there's a diamond-shaped corridor that this dang big block on what amount to massive hidden castors slides around. It looks like just a big block, and it seals off the passage from top to bottom. Unfortunately, this 'perimeter' passage is also the only way to get into the tomb area proper, as all the internal passages lead off of the surrounding corridor.

Get a copy of the Sourcebook. It's full of this kind of 'local color'. Use Google. I've always used Phil's Meso-American imagery for the Bednjallan period, Phil's Ancient Egyptian for Engsvanyali, and Asian for the modern period. It gives a visual style to the historical periods, and you can get it all at the pet shops and dollar stores. Build your locations like you yourself were going to live there, work there, or be buried there; lots of servants, lots of dire perils, lots of undead guardians to serve you in the afterlife.

However, do not let the detail overwhelm the action. This makes for deadly dull game sessions. Offer as much detail as the players are willing to look at, and then shut up and bring on the action.

Do your research, in whatever period or setting you like; Dave and Gary did this when they created D&D, and Phil did it for Tekumel. Know your setting, and you can't go wrong.

That's all general stuff - if you need more detailed stuff, give me specific situations and I can probably be more helpful.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 11, 2016, 02:40:56 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;891013
Blood pressure, Montressor, blood pressure.

The best revenge is to live happily.


Agreed. I am living happily, these days, and am simply watching the train wreck happen.

Tharks!!! I haz tharks!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 11, 2016, 03:06:12 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;891008
And it's the blood pressure meds for me...
Sorry to have reminded you of a stressful topic.

How about those nice doors and the flat bottomed barge?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 11, 2016, 03:19:27 PM
Chirine,

I was working on this month's adventure and the next thing you know I got it in my head to have a tubeway car worked in to the adventure, as I can't for the life of me think how to get them back to civilisation. Did a Google search and not much luck there.
So, how big are tubeway cars? What would the diameter of say a typical one used for personal transportation be? I know they hold about 8 people,  so  would 20' be about right? Are there internal compartments or is it a large sitting area with motors and what not underneath?
I believe that you mentioned in a previous post that there are also military ones shaped like tubes or cigars. How big are these ones? How many men would they hold? Would they be multi level? Do they have cargo room? Are they armed?
Would you have any drawings that you would be willing to share with us?
Many of the stories talk about destination disks. About how big are they; would 3-4" be about right? I want to make some props for the game and a disk would be nice.
Also, about how big would an Eye be? Are they all the same size, or do they vary?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 11, 2016, 03:27:28 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;891009
That's why they all had to be expelled from the Holy Church by the Holy Ones. A lot of very talented people got driven away from Phil's table; the night that Kathy showed up and handed me a copy of her letter telling them where to stuff it was traumatic. It was also in the middle of the production of the "Adventures on Tekumel" books, which is why her artwork suddenly stops being used.

If I was going to be catty, I'd do a web search and see how much stuff was produced by us in the 1980s, and how much was produced by them in the 1990s, 2000s, and 2010s...

OOO! Chirine is being rude again! I want my pills, dang it.


Right, and that's exactly why I said the parallels with organised religions,and with some "schools", are strong.
Also, what makes you think I haven't done my research? But enough of that topic. If the best this is going to achieve is raise your blood pressure, what is the point? Better to show an example, which is what TStPT is doing!

My players managed to avoid my trap corridors so far, but right now are on their way to the most heavily trapped part of the area, with dropping roofs, false doors and rooms turning around their axis, so I'm taking notes!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 11, 2016, 03:44:23 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;890861

     

The juggernaut tomb car of Rekmelish III, in the Jakalla Underworld. The thing slides around the outer passage and can either crush you or trap you - or both, depending on when you get caught in the cycle..


Aiee!  Aiee!  Aiee!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 11, 2016, 04:10:38 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;891028
So, how big are tubeway cars? What would the diameter of say a typical one used for personal transportation be? I know they hold about 8 people,  so  would 20' be about right? Are there internal compartments or is it a large sitting area with motors and what not underneath?

I'd guess they look like this only bigger.
(http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/flashgordon/images/9/9f/Subway2.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/200?cb=20150510160114)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 11, 2016, 05:04:14 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;891028
Chirine,

I was working on this month's adventure and the next thing you know I got it in my head to have a tubeway car worked in to the adventure, as I can't for the life of me think how to get them back to civilisation. Did a Google search and not much luck there.
So, how big are tubeway cars? What would the diameter of say a typical one used for personal transportation be? I know they hold about 8 people,  so  would 20' be about right? Are there internal compartments or is it a large sitting area with motors and what not underneath?
I believe that you mentioned in a previous post that there are also military ones shaped like tubes or cigars. How big are these ones? How many men would they hold? Would they be multi level? Do they have cargo room? Are they armed?
Would you have any drawings that you would be willing to share with us?
Many of the stories talk about destination disks. About how big are they; would 3-4" be about right? I want to make some props for the game and a disk would be nice.
Also, about how big would an Eye be? Are they all the same size, or do they vary?

Shemek


Hello,

Here are some of my notes regarding Tubeway Cars(taken from this thread and other places)...Not mine.

Hope it helps...

H:0)

Tekumel Tubeway System/Tubeway Cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrugga  
One more question for now. Can you please talk a bit about the tubeway system. Are there different size tubeway cars? As far as the tunnels go are there separate tunnels for different directions, or is there one big tunnel allowing cars to go in both directions? Have you ever explored the tubeways without a car(on foot)?
Yes. There are your usual cars, which are spheres with (usually) an upper passenger compartment, and a lower machinery space. (Do not mess with the machinery. It's bad.) The hatch is normally round or oval, about the 'waistline' of the car, but they do vary; think all the models of automobiles, and you get the idea.

There are the larger 'troop carrier' cars, which are the same diameter as the personal cars, but longer - like long 'pills' or medicine capsules. These can go anywhere in the system, but will only stop at the stations with the long platforms - they will not go to the usual stations, as they won't fit. They go to the main stations at the old installations of the Ancients, where they pull up at dual level platforms; the upper is for passengers, the lower for cargo, and there are often automated cargo-handling machines present.

The tubes are single tubes, and all of them operate bi-directionally under the control of the AI that runs the system. It's one car per tube; no 'multi-lane' affairs. There are huge interchange points, basically big chambers with lots of holes in the walls, where the cars transfer from tube to tube. There are also repair and service stations, where the cars are held for use and maintained - and there are also 'private stations' where personal cars are stored, waiting for their long-dead owners.

You can't go in the tubes and survive; there's no air in them. They are maintained at a very low pressure, almost a vacuum, and there's also usually a very, very long drop to get past at the station opening. There is also only very faint, very dim lighting in the tunnels, so it's very hard to see. And you can't use magic, either; the tubeways are lined with metal plates. And the cars move at supersonic speeds, so you can get squished really easily.

The cars all have their own internal gravity engines, so you get no feel of motion when you are zipping along. You want to test that this feature is working, before you get into the car and go on a trip...

There is normally a sort of control panel at the 'front' of the compartment; this normally has ten destination selector buttons, which can be custom-programmed by inserting a memory disk into the slot on the panel, Unfortunately, the disc programming machines are long lost, you if you do find one of these, you have to use trial and erro to find out where they lead to. Do Not Lose Your Notes; This Is A Bad Thing.

The cars, are, of course, a great way to find adventure...

[The tubeways were all underground; no monorails whizzing over the countryside. There were viewscreens, but good luck on getting them pointing where you wanted. The tubeways themselves were featureless metal shafts with little or no lights.

The tubeways' existence was known to all "educated" people of Tekumel. I use "educated" in the 15th century sense; that is, anybody in 15th century Europe who could read Latin and knew who Aristotle was, would have known of the tubeways. Most of them frankly didn't CARE.
Glorious General]


Originally Posted by Atsuku Nare  
What's going to live in the temple and the ruins?

Also, your tubeway adventures - were the tubeways always underground? Was there anything you could see from the tube car, to give you an idea of where you'd end up?

And did you (or the Glorious General) ever disclose the existence of this mass-transit system to anyone? Clan, temple, or army? Or did you keep it secret?

Lastly, did the tubeway go through the core of the planet, or did it just run under the crust?

Thanks!
As a player, I have no idea; the players will have to go look. As a GM, I have lists and lists of what's down there.

Yes, the tubeways are all underground. The three viewscreens sometimes work, and you can see what there is to see. The tubes are pretty dark, with only dim little purple lights, and about the only time you can see anything is on the surface / in a station. The screens also can be used to tap into the communications network, which is usually a bad idea as it lets folks know you are coming, so they can get a hot welcome all ready for you.

Yes. We always filed reports, so we could get paid. Getting believed was another issue, though.

Nope, runs down to the core; that's how the technicians got to the gravity engines that are at the core and which provide both the orbital stability and gravity equalization. Please do not touch any buttons. Thank you.

Chirine
__________________________

Originally Posted by AsenRG  
If they're metal, how comes nobody has broken them down and reused?
Several reasons. First, the metal used is the same as in the hulls of the starships and spacecraft sitting on the Plain of Towers. Nobody knows how to work it, or even what the alloy might be. We're at about the same level of technology as the Greeks and Romans (and yes, I'm over simplifying, here) and we just don't have the means to use the stuff.

Second, too many people use the tubeway car system; start messing with it, and they'll get upset and do nasty things to you. Third, the system is maintained at a near vacuum, so it's more or less inaccessible.

Fourth, the maintenance crews are still active in some sections of the system, and they - being entirely inhuman, and mostly inorganic - take a dim view of people messing about with the infrastructure. They react very badly, and tend to be quite forceful about getting one to not do things. They don't do nasty things to you; they simply vaporize you - or worse. Much, much worse.
__________________________

Yes; all the standard - spherical - cars can go to any station. It's only the longer 'pill-shaped' transports that have to go to specific stations, as these are the ancients' troop and cargo carriers. The standard cars are all the same shape and diameter, so they can go anywhere on the system, but do differ in their internal details as they were often personal property of the ancients.

The 'memory discs' have ten preselected destinations on them, and the car will go to them when you press the 'pre-selected' button; otherwise, you get the last ten destinations that were programmed into the car; the destinations from the last disc used stay in the car's memory until a new disc is inserted, or some 'helpful' person reprograms the car. It is possible to wipe the car's memory, which is really annoying as the car will then just sit there and do nothing. It's also possible to reprogram the discs, but one has to be a pretty high-level wizard to do it.

The tubes are on a sort of 'hub and spoke' system; the cars will travel through the tubes, and often change over to a different tube in one of the huge interchange and repair areas. I do not advise getting out and looking around - many of the machines still work, as do the robotic guards.

All of this is why one should always take one's disc out of the console, and take it with when disembarking from the car. It's really bad to lose your disc, too.

Chirine

Tubeway cars don't have safety belts either, but if the gravity compensators fail you'd never notice when the car goes splat in the collapsed tunnel...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 11, 2016, 05:04:40 PM
Quote from: Bren;891049
I'd guess they look like this only bigger.
(http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/flashgordon/images/9/9f/Subway2.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/200?cb=20150510160114)


Well that's just crazy!:rotfl:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 11, 2016, 05:05:31 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;891014
It's part of the Jakalla Underworld; there's a diamond-shaped corridor that this dang big block on what amount to massive hidden castors slides around. It looks like just a big block, and it seals off the passage from top to bottom. Unfortunately, this 'perimeter' passage is also the only way to get into the tomb area proper, as all the internal passages lead off of the surrounding corridor.

Get a copy of the Sourcebook. It's full of this kind of 'local color'. Use Google. I've always used Phil's Meso-American imagery for the Bednjallan period, Phil's Ancient Egyptian for Engsvanyali, and Asian for the modern period. It gives a visual style to the historical periods, and you can get it all at the pet shops and dollar stores. Build your locations like you yourself were going to live there, work there, or be buried there; lots of servants, lots of dire perils, lots of undead guardians to serve you in the afterlife.

However, do not let the detail overwhelm the action. This makes for deadly dull game sessions. Offer as much detail as the players are willing to look at, and then shut up and bring on the action.

Do your research, in whatever period or setting you like; Dave and Gary did this when they created D&D, and Phil did it for Tekumel. Know your setting, and you can't go wrong.

That's all general stuff - if you need more detailed stuff, give me specific situations and I can probably be more helpful.


Uncle,

Perfect!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 11, 2016, 05:15:11 PM
(http://tf3dm.com/imgd/l18287-flash-gordon-ship-42562.jpeg)

And this would probably be a ship of the ancients. Maybe something we could find on the Plain of Towers?;)

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 11, 2016, 05:18:38 PM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3d/be/25/3dbe25cfd837cc2b0653308d3c4fb0ef.jpg)

Or maybe this one, with out the wires of course.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 11, 2016, 05:25:18 PM
(http://allthingsmike.com/CulturalBlender/robots/flashmechanical.jpg)

Ok, last one. These would probably make some good Silver Suits. Gotta love 1930's and 1940's Sci-Fi. I use this kind of stuff in my games when ever I can. Go Flash!


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 11, 2016, 08:18:54 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;890851
What a waste! It's because of these types of attitudes that Tekumel will continue to languish, and lie in obscurity. They are not doing either Phil or themselves any favours. Bunch of bullshit. You are right let's get back to the fun.


It is no accident that this is literally my only involvement with Tekumel.  I look upon it as spending a quiet weekend at Chrine's summer villa and reminiscing about old campaigns... as Barbara Ninde Byfield said in the Book of Weird, "their memories grow vivid, and their eyes grow dim."

Fortunately, I am not my Legion's official historian.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 11, 2016, 09:02:58 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;891064
Hello,

Here are some of my notes regarding Tubeway Cars(taken from this thread and other places)...Not mine.

Hope it helps...

H:0)

...


Thank you Mighty Hrugga of the Epics! I couldn't remember where I had seen this info, and was too lazy to look back. This will come in handy...:hmm:

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 11, 2016, 09:07:45 PM
Don't forget that about half the sphere is machinery, and if the damn things have toilets we never figured them out.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 11, 2016, 09:13:40 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;891113
Don't forget that about half the sphere is machinery, and if the damn things have toilets we never figured them out.
For the sake of the travelers who followed in your footsteps, I hope you brought your own buckets. Because there are some kinds of footprints even Chief Seattle doesn't want you to leave behind.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 11, 2016, 11:41:32 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;890583
How many copies of the rules do you need? This was one of the games that Paul Stormberg wanted me to run in his 'Legends of Wargaming Area' at this past Gary Con; as he didn't have any copies of the rules for me to use, I put The Missus, Queen of the Internet, on the case to get me some. She found this:

https://archive.org/details/WarriorsOfMarsTheWarfareOfBarsoomInMiniature1974 (https://archive.org/details/WarriorsOfMarsTheWarfareOfBarsoomInMiniature1974)

And we ran off half a dozen copies for the game. These are now, of course, surplus to requirements; I scrapped the flyers I was scratch-building, as my heart just wasn't in it after all the screaming and shouting that went on. Paul also insisted that I use my bucket load of original Heritage figures, in order to fit within his rules for his area. I'm scrapping out these as well - the Bronze Age figures are so much nicer! I had also bought a heap of dowels to make flying stands, and give them that '70s look; not sure what I'll do with those.

Boats from the dollar store; decoration from the same source. Radium cannon from dowels - easy to build, quick to paint - with steel bases and magnets to hold them on the decks until they get shot off.

I love Barsoom; I hate 'gamer politics'...


Jeez.  I was just trying to be a bit lighthearted, not open old wounds.  Sorry.

Actually, the only thing wrong with this year's GaryCon for me was that I was overbooked.  Six events, three running and three playing, is too much.

Actually, seven.  Saturday night Dave Wesley begged me to come into his Braunstein game.

Yes, I did, and yes, I will be writing it up, and yes, I believe you will be amused.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 11, 2016, 11:42:36 PM
Quote from: Bren;891115
For the sake of the travelers who followed in your footsteps, I hope you brought your own buckets. Because there are some kinds of footprints even Chief Seattle doesn't want you to leave behind.


No, we pretty much shat as far away from the control console as we could and called it good.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 12, 2016, 12:47:41 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;891110
Thank you Mighty Hrugga of the Epics! I couldn't remember where I had seen this info, and was too lazy to look back. This will come in handy...:hmm:

Shemek


Good, Good...

H;0)
Title: Place holder, for now...
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 12, 2016, 01:59:50 AM
Gentlemen, I hope that this will suffice for the nonce; I just got in from work - it's just 0100 hours, here - and I have to be back in for an awards ceremony at 0830; I am getting some sort of award for something. I need to get to bed, so I will have longer answers for everyone tomorrow. In the meantime, here's a graphic I did some thirty years ago on tubeway cars for Phil; I don't have this scanned yet, so I just photographed the poster for all of you. The top one is the usual tubeway car station with the usual car. The lower is more on the plan of the usual car.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 12, 2016, 02:18:45 AM
Amusingly, that means my design was pretty close. Well, apart from the fact that I made them rectangular, I guess, but my inspiration was the metro/underground railways:).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;891130

Actually, seven.  Saturday night Dave Wesley begged me to come into his Braunstein game.

Yes, I did, and yes, I will be writing it up, and yes, I believe you will be amused.

I sure hope you'd share;)!
Title: More on tubeways
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 12, 2016, 02:24:56 AM
This is the cover art from "Flamesong": I can't get the troop carrier to upload, so I'll try tomorrow...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 12, 2016, 07:44:52 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;891159
Gentlemen, I hope that this will suffice for the nonce; I just got in from work - it's just 0100 hours, here - and I have to be back in for an awards ceremony at 0830; I am getting some sort of award for something. I need to get to bed, so I will have longer answers for everyone tomorrow. In the meantime, here's a graphic I did some thirty years ago on tubeway cars for Phil; I don't have this scanned yet, so I just photographed the poster for all of you. The top one is the usual tubeway car station with the usual car. The lower is more on the plan of the usual car.


Congratulations!!! Also thank you for the glimpse into your extraordinary archives!!!
Very nice.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on April 12, 2016, 10:13:35 AM
I know that in the early days of our hobby, almost everybody started as (and I suspect continued to be) wargamers. I know you, the Glorious General, and the Good Professor were and I think you mentioned that pretty much all the other group at least played Diplomacy (most misleading name for a game ever. no game starts more fights than Diplo) but it seems like there was a wider mix in your group. How did the Professor round them up? Students of his? Also, what did the non-military characters do when the game shifted to military engagements? Did the non-wargamers have problems (become unhappy) when the game tilted that way? Did you guys run big battles on "off" days? Did the groups that played later, after you guys left, lose or ever have that war game connection?

Some military questions. In the Army book 1, Missum is listed as leading the Storm of Fire  and not the Red Devastation. When did he switch? Was it a reward of some type? I know the book came out in 78 and was reprinted in 81 (and later).

It also lists that the Glorious General's Legion is "good not outstanding." Was this before or after Third Mar?

You mention that your Legion is Engsvanyali. How does that work? I know they are your personal troops but how did you get a "dead" Legion? Was there a body of troops carrying on old traditions, unpaid and uncontrolled by Imperial command? Did you get some dormant "charter" to start your own legion?

Which also reminds me- you mentioned earlier that you have the invoice/bill of sale for the terraforming of Tekumel for the Hokun. Is that something the Professor made that you have in your Great Archive or was it something you found in game? If it was in game, where did you find it and how did anyone read it?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 12, 2016, 07:24:11 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;891159
Gentlemen, I hope that this will suffice for the nonce; I just got in from work - it's just 0100 hours, here - and I have to be back in for an awards ceremony at 0830; I am getting some sort of award for something. I need to get to bed, so I will have longer answers for everyone tomorrow. In the meantime, here's a graphic I did some thirty years ago on tubeway cars for Phil; I don't have this scanned yet, so I just photographed the poster for all of you. The top one is the usual tubeway car station with the usual car. The lower is more on the plan of the usual car.


Congratulations on the award!
Those drawings are great. Looks like the "Flamesong" tubeway car is about 25' in diameter or so; that kind of jives with what I pictured. Judging by the seats the interior of the cabin seems to be about 10' or so. They are pretty darn big inside. I didn't realize that so little of the car protruded from the shaft. That troop transport is massive from what I can see from the picture. Thanks for the posts.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2016, 01:45:33 AM
Quote from: Bren;891023
Sorry to have reminded you of a stressful topic.

How about those nice doors and the flat bottomed barge?


Ah! Thank you for looking in at my little blog!

I have tried a great many dungeon systems over the years, and I've finally settled on flat tiles; however, having the doors in three dimensions is much more satisfying - and players have a habit of pulling the doors off their hinges and using them in all sorts of ways that one did not expect.

These doors stand up nicely without being glued into the thresholds, and I really like the fact that they are etched on both sides. At fifty cents each, I don't think one can go wrong...

The 'bateau' kits are a treat. They make up into smaller barges for 25mm, but this is fine - we have to move them by wind or muscle, and we also have to keep them small enough so that they won't get caught in narrow canals. I really like the planked look on the visible surfaces - the added detail of the internal bracing hides the blank inner sides quite well.

I like doing games on the water; it adds a lot to the fun, I've found! :)
Title: troop carrier
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2016, 01:47:22 AM
Before I try to catch up on all the messages, I'll try to upload the troop carrier version of the tubeway cars...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2016, 02:07:01 AM
From Shemek hiTankolel:
I was working on this month's adventure and the next thing you know I got it in my head to have a tubeway car worked in to the adventure, as I can't for the life of me think how to get them back to civilisation. Did a Google search and not much luck there.
So, how big are tubeway cars? What would the diameter of say a typical one used for personal transportation be? I know they hold about 8 people,  so  would 20' be about right? Are there internal compartments or is it a large sitting area with motors and what not underneath?


Which is the purpose of them in the first place; Tekumel is a big world, and you need to have something to get the players around quickly. Same thing with the Nexus points, for that matter.

About 20 to 25 feet across; we actually never had the chance to measure one. The majority of them have the seating in the upper half of the sphere, as I've shown, with the machinery in the lower half. This lower space is accessed by a sliding panel, and is pretty cramped. There is also often a 'baggage compartment' in the rear of the seating area, and this also had a sliding door; not all cars have this feature, though. There are also some variants where the door / hatch is on the lower portion of the sphere, and there is normally a little ramp that folds out to allow easier access to the door. Unfortunately, sometimes this is not entirely working, and you use it at your own risk. It's a very, very long way down...

I believe that you mentioned in a previous post that there are also military ones shaped like tubes or cigars. How big are these ones? How many men would they hold? Would they be multi level? Do they have cargo room? Are they armed?

See also the illustration. These do not go to the usual stations; they only go to the military bases or the interchanges. They normally use bi-level 'platforms', where the passengers use the upper level and the cargo handlers the lower. The fore and aft ends are where the machinery is located. I think these are about 150' long, and will carry maybe 50 to 75 passengers - depending on seating configuration. They are not armed; we never saw a tubeway car that was.

Would you have any drawings that you would be willing to share with us?
Done for you... :)

Many of the stories talk about destination disks. About how big are they; would 3-4" be about right? I want to make some props for the game and a disk would be nice.

About the size of a CD. Get one of the clear blanks you get in one of those spinde packs, paint bright gold, and Bob's your uncle.

Also, about how big would an Eye be? Are they all the same size, or do they vary?

Eyes are all about the size of a Ping-pong ball, and are spherical with the 'lens' on one side and the 'button' on the opposite side. I've made some as props, for a guy doing a LARP; I hollowed out a wooden sphere of the right size, added an LED, battery, and switch, and there it was.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2016, 02:11:10 AM
From AsenRG:
Right, and that's exactly why I said the parallels with organised religions,and with some "schools", are strong.

Some observers of the situation have also described it as "Stalinist". I'm just trying to avoid it all...

Also, what makes you think I haven't done my research? But enough of that topic. If the best this is going to achieve is raise your blood pressure, what is the point? Better to show an example, which is what TStPT is doing!

Huh? I was speaking rhetorically; I did not mean you personally, and I am sorry of you thought that I was.

My players managed to avoid my trap corridors so far, but right now are on their way to the most heavily trapped part of the area, with dropping roofs, false doors and rooms turning around their axis, so I'm taking notes!

Very cool! Phil was very find of rotating rooms - he even had an entire section of the Jakalla underworld that would rotate randomly, which really confused us - for several years, actually!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2016, 02:12:13 AM
Quote from: Bren;891049
I'd guess they look like this only bigger.
(http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/flashgordon/images/9/9f/Subway2.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/200?cb=20150510160114)


Don't let Phil see this; he'll be all over it... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2016, 02:14:19 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;891070
(http://tf3dm.com/imgd/l18287-flash-gordon-ship-42562.jpeg)

And this would probably be a ship of the ancients. Maybe something we could find on the Plain of Towers?;)

Shemek


Could be - needs more Art Deco Streamline Moderne. See also the 1939 World's Fair, which is what Phil held that the future would look like.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2016, 02:16:28 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;891072
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3d/be/25/3dbe25cfd837cc2b0653308d3c4fb0ef.jpg)

Or maybe this one, with out the wires of course.

Shemek


Better, better... :)

Phil's smaller in-system ships tended to be simple spheres, ala H. Beam Piper's "Space Viking". Not a lot of 'techno' stuff hanging out; Phil like his stuff clean and smooth, with a lot of bare metal finishes.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2016, 02:18:03 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;891075
(http://allthingsmike.com/CulturalBlender/robots/flashmechanical.jpg)

Ok, last one. These would probably make some good Silver Suits. Gotta love 1930's and 1940's Sci-Fi. I use this kind of stuff in my games when ever I can. Go Flash!


Shemek


I actually have three of these guys - they were issued as little toys, presumably as robots of some sort. They make very good Ru'un... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2016, 02:19:11 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;891103
It is no accident that this is literally my only involvement with Tekumel.  I look upon it as spending a quiet weekend at Chrine's summer villa and reminiscing about old campaigns... as Barbara Ninde Byfield said in the Book of Weird, "their memories grow vivid, and their eyes grow dim."

Fortunately, I am not my Legion's official historian.


Agreed. I have very nice plumbing, too, courtesy of the Tinaliya.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2016, 02:20:37 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;891113
Don't forget that about half the sphere is machinery, and if the damn things have toilets we never figured them out.


You know, I don't recall ever seeing anything that even vaguely resembled a toilet in any tubeway car, but then I don't think we ever asked...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2016, 02:25:57 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;891130
Jeez.  I was just trying to be a bit lighthearted, not open old wounds.  Sorry.

Actually, the only thing wrong with this year's GaryCon for me was that I was overbooked.  Six events, three running and three playing, is too much.

Actually, seven.  Saturday night Dave Wesley begged me to come into his Braunstein game.

Yes, I did, and yes, I will be writing it up, and yes, I believe you will be amused.


Not your fault. It's not an old wound, it's a running, festering open one. I wasted the better part of a year of my life and the better part of a grand trying to do this event, and it all pretty much was a waste. I've had quite a few groups / factions / cliques come through the basement over the past five years, just chock full of how they are my 'special friends' and 'biggest fans', and all puffed up with grand plans for their businesses. It seems, though, that the prerequisite for their success is for them to get control of what's in my head and in my collections; I've had to fight off several 'hostile takeovers', and it's gotten old.

Love to hear how the game went, though!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2016, 02:27:16 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;891201
Congratulations!!! Also thank you for the glimpse into your extraordinary archives!!!
Very nice.

H:0)


Thnak you, and you're very welcome. I have a basement full of this kind of thing...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 13, 2016, 02:27:41 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;891383
From AsenRG:
Also, what makes you think I haven't done my research? But enough of that topic. If the best this is going to achieve is raise your blood pressure, what is the point? Better to show an example, which is what TStPT is doing!

Huh? I was speaking rhetorically; I did not mean you personally, and I am sorry of you thought that I was.

No, Uncle, I didn't think you think that. I was just trying to make my point in a more elaborate manner than usual. Sorry for the misunderstanding!

Quote
Very cool! Phil was very find of rotating rooms - he even had an entire section of the Jakalla underworld that would rotate randomly, which really confused us - for several years, actually!

It's quite possibly the same inspiration source. I was thinking of the ending of Gods of Mars!

Would any of the inimical races have stasis fields?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2016, 02:48:19 AM
From Big Andy:
I know that in the early days of our hobby, almost everybody started as (and I suspect continued to be) wargamers. I know you, the Glorious General, and the Good Professor were and I think you mentioned that pretty much all the other group at least played Diplomacy (most misleading name for a game ever. no game starts more fights than Diplo) but it seems like there was a wider mix in your group. How did the Professor round them up? Students of his?

It was all 'friends of friends' in our group. Phil never, ever had any of his language students in for a game, even as observers. He kept his gaming life very, very separate from his academic life.

Also, what did the non-military characters do when the game shifted to military engagements? Did the non-wargamers have problems (become unhappy) when the game tilted that way? Did you guys run big battles on "off" days?

Most of the time, they were just as much in the thick of things as the troops were. Tiketl was an example of this - everybody fought. Third Mar, they were all in the baggage train, to try and keep them as safe as possible. It all depended on the tactical situation.

No. Everybody had their turn; we military types would sit back and watch them play, and they'd do the same for us. Phil made sure that everyone got face time, and had something to do - no matter how dangerous...

Depended on how long we thought that the game would take. We had about five hours to game on Thursdays, so anything longer got played on the Saturday immediately following.


Did the groups that played later, after you guys left, lose or ever have that war game connection?

Yes. They were power gamers, and wanted personal adventures that would benefit them personally.

Some military questions. In the Army book 1, Missum is listed as leading the Storm of Fire  and not the Red Devastation. When did he switch? Was it a reward of some type? I know the book came out in 78 and was reprinted in 81 (and later).

After the stalemate in the NW Frontier campaign. The general in command of the Devastators was getting too close to retirement, so Karim Missum got the post as a reward for his service.

I did the '81 edition; Carl's later edition is a reprint of that.

It also lists that the Glorious General's Legion is "good not outstanding." Was this before or after Third Mar?

Before.

You mention that your Legion is Engsvanyali. How does that work? I know they are your personal troops but how did you get a "dead" Legion? Was there a body of troops carrying on old traditions, unpaid and uncontrolled by Imperial command? Did you get some dormant "charter" to start your own legion?

Yes. Tekumel is littered with 'lost' legions and units; see also "Deeds of the Ever-Glorious". In this case, All-Consuming Flame was a garrison unit that got forgotten when the Priest-kings' empire collapsed. They stayed in place near Hekllu, and were not on the rolls like Translucent Emerald was. When I got sent out to Hekellu as military head, I was given a 'form letter' to post calling all legions back into service. I posted this, and reactivated the 32nd Mediums, Translucent Emerald. My aide pointed out that there were also several cohorts of heavy pike in flame-red, and it turned out that they were All-Consuming Flame, rallying to the colors. As they were not Imperials, I wound up paying for them, and so they became my personal army; not an unusual thing, in Tsolyanu. They don't exist in the Imperial army list, but they were authorized by Prince Mirusiya. (I always do my paperwork.) I also got two cohorts worth of Vriddi mediums - clan troops, also not Imperials - so I have a nice little army to work with. I even have a photo of the legion's troops...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3jvXCqf5B_U/VE-T2rb2rNI/AAAAAAAABSs/RCI7HLGnLJs/s1600/DSC00116.JPG (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3jvXCqf5B_U/VE-T2rb2rNI/AAAAAAAABSs/RCI7HLGnLJs/s1600/DSC00116.JPG)

Which also reminds me- you mentioned earlier that you have the invoice/bill of sale for the terraforming of Tekumel for the Hokun. Is that something the Professor made that you have in your Great Archive or was it something you found in game? If it was in game, where did you find it and how did anyone read it?

Found it in Phil's files, and made a copy for my archives.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2016, 02:50:09 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;891313
Congratulations on the award!
Those drawings are great. Looks like the "Flamesong" tubeway car is about 25' in diameter or so; that kind of jives with what I pictured. Judging by the seats the interior of the cabin seems to be about 10' or so. They are pretty darn big inside. I didn't realize that so little of the car protruded from the shaft. That troop transport is massive from what I can see from the picture. Thanks for the posts.

Shemek


You're welcome! Yeah, they are pretty big. I'm working on a model of one; I'll do a second with an interior. Maybe a station, too...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2016, 02:52:20 AM
I think I'm all caught up. Did I miss anyone?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 13, 2016, 10:36:22 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;891398
You're welcome! Yeah, they are pretty big. I'm working on a model of one; I'll do a second with an interior. Maybe a station, too...


Ohhh Boy!!! A few examples of some stations would be great!!! Maybe a hub...?
Thanks in advance.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 13, 2016, 11:44:45 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;891399
I think I'm all caught up. Did I miss anyone?


I think I posted while you were posting, too, but now I can add a follow-up question, too:).
Do any of the inimical races have stasis fields?
And do they have access to at least limited precognition, not necessarily an easy one;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 13, 2016, 11:50:53 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;891378
I like doing games on the water; it adds a lot to the fun, I've found! :)
I'm jealous. I wish my current players were more interested in military style adventures.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;891385
Don't let Phil see this; he'll be all over it... :)

I never met Phil, but from your descriptions of what he enjoyed, I'm certain he was already familiar with the Saturnian tube cars. I had forgotten how small they were.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 13, 2016, 02:04:51 PM
I think you'll be very amused by my Braunstein adventure.  At one point I literally had Dave Wesley sitting at a table cradling his head in his hands.

:D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 13, 2016, 02:06:00 PM
Also, what in Sarku's Hells ever happened to "we're playing some games to have fun?"

Rhetorical question, truly.  But Crom almighty, it wearies.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 13, 2016, 02:09:49 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;891033
Right, and that's exactly why I said the parallels with organised religions,and with some "schools", are strong.
Also, what makes you think I haven't done my research? But enough of that topic.


Last comment... sometimes it seems like Tekumel was born under an ill-favored star.  Ever since TSR bought the license from Bill Hoyt it seems like there has been one kerfluffle after another.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2016, 02:26:40 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;891442
Ohhh Boy!!! A few examples of some stations would be great!!! Maybe a hub...?
Thanks in advance.

H:0)


The bulk of the stations are the 'private' ones; a chamber with a hole, and the three plates that you step on to summon the cars and which also indicate the station's status. These are also above ground, in some ancient locations, but the basic layout is the same. Stations that can take the big cars are laid out a lot like our train stations, with a horizontal platform - the spherical cars can line up at these. The hubs are huge underground chambers, multi-story, generally circular with a huge open floor and walls with many tube openings in them. Repair machines, cargo handling robots, and security androids are all over, and come to life when a car arrives. I do not advise getting out, but if you must... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2016, 02:29:04 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;891464
I think I posted while you were posting, too, but now I can add a follow-up question, too:).
Do any of the inimical races have stasis fields?
And do they have access to at least limited precognition, not necessarily an easy one;)?


Yes; I've seen Hlyss, Ssu, Shunned Ones, and Mihalli with them. I did not see Nyagga with them, but then we didn't see much of them at all.

Yes; The Mihalli certainly do, and the Hlyss and Ssu don't seem to. Again, the Nyagga may have - not enough data...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2016, 02:30:45 PM
Quote from: Bren;891466
I'm jealous. I wish my current players were more interested in military style adventures.

I never met Phil, but from your descriptions of what he enjoyed, I'm certain he was already familiar with the Saturnian tube cars. I had forgotten how small they were.


I don;t know what to tell you. I've never had any problems getting people to play in this kind of thing, but I think it's the models and props that 'sell' the game.

Agreed; he would have loved this! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2016, 02:31:28 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;891504
I think you'll be very amused by my Braunstein adventure.  At one point I literally had Dave Wesley sitting at a table cradling his head in his hands.

:D


Great - let's hear!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2016, 02:35:19 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;891505
Also, what in Sarku's Hells ever happened to "we're playing some games to have fun?"

Rhetorical question, truly.  But Crom almighty, it wearies.


I hear you. I am completely baffled by this, myself. the notion of the kind of 'fun' that we had seems to have gotten buried somewhere along the way.

I'll admit it; I've pretty much given up, after the events of this past year. I've tried all kinds of 'out'reach' to people, but everyone hereabouts seems to be all so wrapped up in their 'SEROIUS GAMING' that they don't seem to have any time for people like us and our games. Dave can't get anybody interested in a Braunstein locally, I gather; he has to go to Gary Con or Gen Con to get players.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2016, 02:38:13 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;891506
Last comment... sometimes it seems like Tekumel was born under an ill-favored star.  Ever since TSR bought the license from Bill Hoyt it seems like there has been one kerfluffle after another.


Agreed. After I read Phil's letter files, as well as the TSR and AGI files, a lot of the 'back story' about Tekumel publishing became all too clear. I discovered things that I had suspected, but didn't have the documentation for. And stuff that I hadn't known about, but which explained some of the odder moments I'd had in my career.

Oh, my. :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on April 13, 2016, 02:41:46 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;890911
Instead, here's a link for Bethorm, for everyone that wants an atlas of Kurt Hills.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jeffdee/1039135390


This is up and running now.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 13, 2016, 03:01:04 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;891511
Yes; I've seen Hlyss, Ssu, Shunned Ones, and Mihalli with them. I did not see Nyagga with them, but then we didn't see much of them at all.

Yes; The Mihalli certainly do, and the Hlyss and Ssu don't seem to. Again, the Nyagga may have - not enough data...

Interesting. Are they using old Humanspace tech? Or do they have their own, and what it looks like?
Same question for the Mihalli precognition, how do you suspect it works?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;891504
I think you'll be very amused by my Braunstein adventure.  At one point I literally had Dave Wesley sitting at a table cradling his head in his hands.

:D

I'd certainly like to hear more:).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;891505
Also, what in Sarku's Hells ever happened to "we're playing some games to have fun?"

Rhetorical question, truly.  But Crom almighty, it wearies.


Quote from: chirine ba kal;891515
I hear you. I am completely baffled by this, myself. the notion of the kind of 'fun' that we had seems to have gotten buried somewhere along the way.

I'll admit it; I've pretty much given up, after the events of this past year. I've tried all kinds of 'out'reach' to people, but everyone hereabouts seems to be all so wrapped up in their 'SEROIUS GAMING' that they don't seem to have any time for people like us and our games. Dave can't get anybody interested in a Braunstein locally, I gather; he has to go to Gary Con or Gen Con to get players.

I don't know, either.
I mean, I like to say you should treat games "seriously". But what I actually mean is, you should pay attention to the details and base them off actual research instead of on "we're PCs, of course it works in our favour"!
From your stories, you guys were playing in what I'd call "fully serious" manner. I wouldn't say the same about many of the people that claim that title today.

Quote from: Big Andy;891519
This is up and running now.

And it's already at $1731 with just 25 backers;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on April 13, 2016, 04:12:30 PM
Ok, so I have a couple questions for Gronan and Chirine.

Assume the following:


1. What in the name of Thúmis the Seeker should I start with?

2. It seems like all your campaign history got put into novels and wargame supplements.  Is there a master list of these?

3. What relation does the Jeff Dee stuff have to Tékumel?  Is it some off-screen part he took to make his own?

4. I haven't learned any fantasy languages, and probably won't, but is there a good guide to Tsolyáni?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 13, 2016, 05:03:34 PM
Well, the answer to #1 is that the original "Empire of the Petal Throne" is available out there somewhere.  I don't remember if it's print or PDF.  Google should help.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 13, 2016, 05:42:03 PM
Chirine,

Thank you for the uploads and information the tubeways. I will certainly put that to good use in my game!

Don't know who made this awesome piece (found it on line). I thought it appropriate considering all of this talk about tubeway cars.

(https://wiki.rpg.net/images/3/34/MPost186-Tubeways.jpg)


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 13, 2016, 06:38:11 PM
Kathy Marschall/Lady Vrisa
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 13, 2016, 06:39:51 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;891009
the night that Kathy showed up and handed me a copy of her letter telling them where to stuff it was traumatic.


...buh?

Kathy as in Lady Vrisa?  Kathy as on one of two or three artists who actually worked with Phil to DEFINE the look of Tekumel?

THAT Kathy?

My gob, he is smacked.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on April 13, 2016, 06:58:25 PM
what Gronan said.


wtf? I never heard anything about that.

don't get me started on how much she has defined (for me) the graphic look of Tekumel. Colour me floored.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 13, 2016, 07:27:33 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;891571
Kathy Marschall/Lady Vrisa


Oh, OK. Very nice work.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 13, 2016, 10:12:25 PM
Chirine,

I was recently on the old Blue Room Archive and I came across this snippet from Phil. It's from a larger paragraph.

"I don't mind talking about it -- it's common knowledge in the ports of Yan Kor and Pijjena. ...The Black Ships come from over the Pole --apparently there are ways around the ice cap that lies about 30 hexes north of the northernmost hex you can see on the Zocchi map. The Black Ships contain leather-clad traders and warriors who seek gold, furs, fancy goods, etc. in Yan Kor and the south. They do not often disembark, and they never leave their ships to travel southward by land. Some seem to have sorcerous powers, like Fu Shi'i, while others are reputed to be fine warriors and sailors. They have not been a major problem, which is why they are not much mentioned in any of my books. I suppose one could take passage on one of these ships and go across the pole. But rumour has it that those kingdoms are ruled by Hokun, who use humans as slaves."

Out of curiosity, is there anything else that you could tell us about these Black Ships, and their crew? According to Phil, in the same post, he states that  "Fu Shi claims to have come over the North Pole, via the "Black Ships" that sometimes appear in the northern seas." I guess that they are somehow related to the Brown and Purple Empire you mentioned a while back?
I checked the previous posts, but didn't find any mention of these ships, or the human allies (slaves?) of the Hokun that crew them, if that's who these "men" are?. If you already covered it, please point me in the right direction and I'll see what you said.:D

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 14, 2016, 01:47:43 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;891519
This is up and running now.


Very cool! I like what Jeff Dee is doing; it's what we've all had to do, over the decades, taking Phil's 'sketches' and fleshing them out.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 14, 2016, 01:54:33 AM
From Asen RG:
Interesting. Are they using old Humanspace tech? Or do they have their own, and what it looks like?
Same question for the Mihalli precognition, how do you suspect it works?


Yes, to both. They get the stuff the same way we do, by sending out parties of 'adventurers' to see what they can find. They also had their own stuff, but we saw very, very little of it; I think I have a drawing or two in the files, and I'll have a look for you...

We don't know for sure, but the prevailing theory is that it is tied in with their  seeming to exist on several planes of reality at once, and that their 'future selves' can communicate with their 'present selves', depending on how well the planes of reality are meshing at that point in space-time.

I don't know, either.
I mean, I like to say you should treat games "seriously". But what I actually mean is, you should pay attention to the details and base them off actual research instead of on "we're PCs, of course it works in our favour"!


Well, that makes sense.

From your stories, you guys were playing in what I'd call "fully serious" manner. I wouldn't say the same about many of the people that claim that title today.

Oh, I'd agree with that. Very much, actually.

And it's already at $1731 with just 25 backers;).

Which is a good thing, if you ask me...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 14, 2016, 02:08:10 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;891543
Ok, so I have a couple questions for Gronan and Chirine.

Assume the following:
  • I know nothing about Tékumel
  • I have no problem with "acquiring" out of print material.
  • I'm not really tied to any one system.
  • I realize that like Prof. Barker himself, I'm not a transgendered person of color and so, naturally, have no business even thinking about Tékumel. :p


1. What in the name of Thúmis the Seeker should I start with?

2. It seems like all your campaign history got put into novels and wargame supplements.  Is there a master list of these?

3. What relation does the Jeff Dee stuff have to Tékumel?  Is it some off-screen part he took to make his own?

4. I haven't learned any fantasy languages, and probably won't, but is there a good guide to Tsolyáni?


1. I agree with Gronan - start with EPT. It's the best introduction yet, I think, and does not have a lot of complication to it. If and when you think you're ready, a copy of the Sourcebook - but be aware that it is a very dense read, as it's more an ethnographic study then an RPG. But it is Phil's world, all laid out for you.

2. Brett Slocum has a very good bibliography over on his Tekumel Yahoo group; it's very complete, and about the best list out there. Look in his 'FAQ file'.

3. What Jeff is doing is what we all used to do; take Phil's little 'sketches' and monographs and fill them out when gaming. Phil used to do the exact same thing - he knew in general terms what a particular area was like, but if more detailed information was needed he'd send a party of players in there to find things out for him. He'd them write is all up, and we'd publish it. Lather, rinse, and repeat for the better part of fifty years, and that's why there is this huge mass of data about Tekumel. Jeff's doing the same thing, but you get the information in a handy format for your use.

Likewise, "Bethorm" is about the closest we'll ever get to what Phil's S&G RPG would have been, as well as being the best approximation of the way Phil played in the middle to late 1980s - when he used any rules at all. Simple combat system, more complex magic system - I think it's about the best we'll ever get, frankly.

4. "The Tsolyani Language", by M. A. R. Barker. The Tsolyani-English / English-Tsolyani dictionary and 'handy phrases' are the best part - some of the latter tell little stories that are gems of their own. We did a CD version of the language tape that Phil did for me, and Carl Brodt might still have some. We still have the master tapes; Phil said that his copy got lost or mislaid in the middle 1990s.

(And it's 'bisexual', not 'transgendered', I have been told. Sorry to be fussy...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 14, 2016, 02:11:06 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;891571
Kathy Marschall/Lady Vrisa


What he said. The wonderful Kathy Marschall, The Highborn Lady Princess Vrisa Vishetru, 23rd child of the Ssao of Saa Alliqui, and clan-cousin to Baron Ald Vishetru...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 14, 2016, 02:38:25 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;891572
...buh?

Kathy as in Lady Vrisa?  Kathy as on one of two or three artists who actually worked with Phil to DEFINE the look of Tekumel?

THAT Kathy?

My gob, he is smacked.


Ah, Glorious General, I hope you have a bucket handy.:eek:

Yes. The very same. The talented artist and wonderful player. Our mutual friend. Our stalwart companion for a decade. Read and weep, my General...

So one fine Thursday night in the middling 1990s, the Missus is watching the telly in the living room when the front doorbell rings. She comes and gets me in the home office; Kathy's at the front door, and she hands me a copy of a typed letter that she's just handed to Phil before she'd walked out. She'd told Phil and the cronies - guess who? - that's she'd had enough of their antics and that she was quitting the Thursday Night Group. Permanently. To drive the point home, she'd done one of her great bits of art telling them just exactly what she thought of them.

As you are, I was - and still am - gobsmacked. Then she told me, in short pithy words, on my doorstep, why she was quitting.

The continuing and graphic in-game 'PvP' sexual harassment, sexual abuse, torture, and rape that she had had to put up with as Vrisa was made the object of hatred by the very people that she was then currently doing the artwork for - she was in the middle of the "Adventures on Tekumel" series - and that night had had the final straw when Vrisa was drugged and abducted by one of the players - guess who, my General! - who then had her stripped and sold to Gij and Sons for sale as a slave. The player - guess who, my General! - not only pocketed the sale money but sold all of her possessions and pocketed that money as well; remember the suit of steel armor that we got her as a gift? Gone, my General. Her enchanted sword, that she used to save our sorry asses on so many desperate occasions? Gone, my General.

"Oh, and by the way, could you hurry up on that artwork?" she was told. That's when she walked out.

And with that explanation, she turned and left. Never came back to Tekumel, either. I had the shakes for the next two days.

Sad little postscript: When I called to let her know about Phil's memorial event, her husband gave me a polite brush-off. Can't say as I blame them, my General.

Does this put my rage in perspective for you, my General?

Kathy and her amazing talent for illustrating Phil's imagination. Gone, my General.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 14, 2016, 02:41:33 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;891573
what Gronan said.


wtf? I never heard anything about that.

don't get me started on how much she has defined (for me) the graphic look of Tekumel. Colour me floored.


Yep. Please see post #2592. And people wonder why, after thirty-five years of this sort of thing, I get into these 'cranky old man' moods.

My talent - and my curse is not to know what the future will be; it's knowing what the future can be. I mourn for all the lost opportunities that have been passed by, the talents squandered, and relationships ruined. I know the Tekumel that could have been...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 14, 2016, 02:42:37 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;891576
Oh, OK. Very nice work.

Shemek.


You should see her other stuff... :jaw-dropping:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 14, 2016, 02:51:34 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;891594
Chirine,

I was recently on the old Blue Room Archive and I came across this snippet from Phil. It's from a larger paragraph.

"I don't mind talking about it -- it's common knowledge in the ports of Yan Kor and Pijjena. ...The Black Ships come from over the Pole --apparently there are ways around the ice cap that lies about 30 hexes north of the northernmost hex you can see on the Zocchi map. The Black Ships contain leather-clad traders and warriors who seek gold, furs, fancy goods, etc. in Yan Kor and the south. They do not often disembark, and they never leave their ships to travel southward by land. Some seem to have sorcerous powers, like Fu Shi'i, while others are reputed to be fine warriors and sailors. They have not been a major problem, which is why they are not much mentioned in any of my books. I suppose one could take passage on one of these ships and go across the pole. But rumour has it that those kingdoms are ruled by Hokun, who use humans as slaves."

Out of curiosity, is there anything else that you could tell us about these Black Ships, and their crew? According to Phil, in the same post, he states that  "Fu Shi claims to have come over the North Pole, via the "Black Ships" that sometimes appear in the northern seas." I guess that they are somehow related to the Brown and Purple Empire you mentioned a while back?
I checked the previous posts, but didn't find any mention of these ships, or the human allies (slaves?) of the Hokun that crew them, if that's who these "men" are?. If you already covered it, please point me in the right direction and I'll see what you said.:D

Shemek


Yep, that's them. These are the ships from the Brown and Purple Empire. They seemed to be allied in some way to the Hokun, which was enough - along with their having Lord Fu Hsi hanging around - more then enough reason to avoid them. They showed up very infrequently, and it was always very bad news when they did. We knew about them through Vrisa, who'd get the rumors and gossip from her father the Ssao, the Baron's ally. It's one of the reasons she went back home, to try and keep these people out of local politics. It got messy; she was also being considered as a possible wife for Ald, and so we had to intervene on a number of occasions to keep her from getting murdered.

As I recall, these ships are very similar to the ones that we use, but look 'different' in some way that Phil had a hard time describing. The black color is paint, he did say.

This is also a good point that you need to be kind of specific to trigger my memory banks. Think of my brain as the warehouse at the end of "Raiders of the Lost Ark", and you get the idea.

Maybe I need to have an index for TStPT...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 14, 2016, 04:15:45 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;891634
Ah, Glorious General, I hope you have a bucket handy.:eek:

Yes. The very same. The talented artist and wonderful player. Our mutual friend. Our stalwart companion for a decade. Read and weep, my General...

So one fine Thursday night in the middling 1990s, the Missus is watching the telly in the living room when the front doorbell rings. She comes and gets me in the home office; Kathy's at the front door, and she hands me a copy of a typed letter that she's just handed to Phil before she'd walked out. She'd told Phil and the cronies - guess who? - that's she'd had enough of their antics and that she was quitting the Thursday Night Group. Permanently. To drive the point home, she'd done one of her great bits of art telling them just exactly what she thought of them.

As you are, I was - and still am - gobsmacked. Then she told me, in short pithy words, on my doorstep, why she was quitting.

The continuing and graphic in-game 'PvP' sexual harassment, sexual abuse, torture, and rape that she had had to put up with as Vrisa was made the object of hatred by the very people that she was then currently doing the artwork for - she was in the middle of the "Adventures on Tekumel" series - and that night had had the final straw when Vrisa was drugged and abducted by one of the players - guess who, my General! - who then had her stripped and sold to Gij and Sons for sale as a slave. The player - guess who, my General! - not only pocketed the sale money but sold all of her possessions and pocketed that money as well; remember the suit of steel armor that we got her as a gift? Gone, my General. Her enchanted sword, that she used to save our sorry asses on so many desperate occasions? Gone, my General.

"Oh, and by the way, could you hurry up on that artwork?" she was told. That's when she walked out.

And with that explanation, she turned and left. Never came back to Tekumel, either. I had the shakes for the next two days.

Sad little postscript: When I called to let her know about Phil's memorial event, her husband gave me a polite brush-off. Can't say as I blame them, my General.

Does this put my rage in perspective for you, my General?

Kathy and her amazing talent for illustrating Phil's imagination. Gone, my General.

What a sad story...

But wait, isn't it "associating with slavers"? What happened to the PC's prestige afterwards:)?

Also, selling Vrisa as a common slave? That's like hacking a new computer prototype and selling the precious metals in it:D!

I wonder whether to laugh at the IC ineptitude, or at the OOC ineptitude displayed in that story.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;891640
Yep, that's them. These are the ships from the Brown and Purple Empire. They seemed to be allied in some way to the Hokun, which was enough - along with their having Lord Fu Hsi hanging around - more then enough reason to avoid them. They showed up very infrequently, and it was always very bad news when they did. We knew about them through Vrisa, who'd get the rumors and gossip from her father the Ssao, the Baron's ally. It's one of the reasons she went back home, to try and keep these people out of local politics. It got messy; she was also being considered as a possible wife for Ald, and so we had to intervene on a number of occasions to keep her from getting murdered.

As I recall, these ships are very similar to the ones that we use, but look 'different' in some way that Phil had a hard time describing. The black color is paint, he did say.

This is also a good point that you need to be kind of specific to trigger my memory banks. Think of my brain as the warehouse at the end of "Raiders of the Lost Ark", and you get the idea.

Maybe I need to have an index for TStPT...

Might it be the ships were of a different model?
(On my version of Tekumel, the main ships are praus and junks, followed by cogs, galeras, giant pseudo-balsa wood rafts and reed boats. If anyone has a brig, it would be a great asset!
I get it Phil was using different ones, but it's a topic where I've chosen to diverge from canon. Nothing says "you're not in Kansas any more" to players better than embarking a wooden ship and then having a reed boat being faster and less susceptible to storms).

An index of TStPT would definitely be a great idea;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on April 14, 2016, 04:37:04 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;891634
Ah, Glorious General, I hope you have a bucket handy.:eek:

Yes. The very same. The talented artist and wonderful player. Our mutual friend. Our stalwart companion for a decade. Read and weep, my General...

So one fine Thursday night in the middling 1990s, the Missus is watching the telly in the living room when the front doorbell rings. She comes and gets me in the home office; Kathy's at the front door, and she hands me a copy of a typed letter that she's just handed to Phil before she'd walked out. She'd told Phil and the cronies - guess who? - that's she'd had enough of their antics and that she was quitting the Thursday Night Group. Permanently. To drive the point home, she'd done one of her great bits of art telling them just exactly what she thought of them.

As you are, I was - and still am - gobsmacked. Then she told me, in short pithy words, on my doorstep, why she was quitting.

The continuing and graphic in-game 'PvP' sexual harassment, sexual abuse, torture, and rape that she had had to put up with as Vrisa was made the object of hatred by the very people that she was then currently doing the artwork for - she was in the middle of the "Adventures on Tekumel" series - and that night had had the final straw when Vrisa was drugged and abducted by one of the players - guess who, my General! - who then had her stripped and sold to Gij and Sons for sale as a slave. The player - guess who, my General! - not only pocketed the sale money but sold all of her possessions and pocketed that money as well; remember the suit of steel armor that we got her as a gift? Gone, my General. Her enchanted sword, that she used to save our sorry asses on so many desperate occasions? Gone, my General.

"Oh, and by the way, could you hurry up on that artwork?" she was told. That's when she walked out.

And with that explanation, she turned and left. Never came back to Tekumel, either. I had the shakes for the next two days.

Sad little postscript: When I called to let her know about Phil's memorial event, her husband gave me a polite brush-off. Can't say as I blame them, my General.

Does this put my rage in perspective for you, my General?

Kathy and her amazing talent for illustrating Phil's imagination. Gone, my General.


Was Phil the GM of that Thursday Group?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 14, 2016, 10:23:31 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;891634
Ah, Glorious General, I hope you have a bucket handy.:eek:

Yes. The very same. The talented artist and wonderful player. Our mutual friend. Our stalwart companion for a decade. Read and weep, my General...

So one fine Thursday night in the middling 1990s, the Missus is watching the telly in the living room when the front doorbell rings. She comes and gets me in the home office; Kathy's at the front door, and she hands me a copy of a typed letter that she's just handed to Phil before she'd walked out. She'd told Phil and the cronies - guess who? - that's she'd had enough of their antics and that she was quitting the Thursday Night Group. Permanently. To drive the point home, she'd done one of her great bits of art telling them just exactly what she thought of them.

As you are, I was - and still am - gobsmacked. Then she told me, in short pithy words, on my doorstep, why she was quitting.

The continuing and graphic in-game 'PvP' sexual harassment, sexual abuse, torture, and rape that she had had to put up with as Vrisa was made the object of hatred by the very people that she was then currently doing the artwork for - she was in the middle of the "Adventures on Tekumel" series - and that night had had the final straw when Vrisa was drugged and abducted by one of the players - guess who, my General! - who then had her stripped and sold to Gij and Sons for sale as a slave. The player - guess who, my General! - not only pocketed the sale money but sold all of her possessions and pocketed that money as well; remember the suit of steel armor that we got her as a gift? Gone, my General. Her enchanted sword, that she used to save our sorry asses on so many desperate occasions? Gone, my General.

"Oh, and by the way, could you hurry up on that artwork?" she was told. That's when she walked out.

And with that explanation, she turned and left. Never came back to Tekumel, either. I had the shakes for the next two days.

Sad little postscript: When I called to let her know about Phil's memorial event, her husband gave me a polite brush-off. Can't say as I blame them, my General.

Does this put my rage in perspective for you, my General?

Kathy and her amazing talent for illustrating Phil's imagination. Gone, my General.


Jesus wept.

I'm too busy being heartbroken to be angry.  For now.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 14, 2016, 11:23:53 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;891636
Yep. Please see post #2592. And people wonder why, after thirty-five years of this sort of thing, I get into these 'cranky old man' moods.

My talent - and my curse! is not to know what the future will be; it's knowing what the future can be. I mourn for all the lost opportunities that have been passed by, the talents squandered, and relationships ruined. I know the Tekumel that could have been...


That is what breaks my heart...Tekumel has so much great stuff, but thinking about what it could have been. Seems the same old stuff is still happening today with prospective projects...

The Professor's, Dave S's, and Kathy's illustrations really do define Tekumel for me...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 14, 2016, 02:16:01 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;891653
What a sad story...

But wait, isn't it "associating with slavers"? What happened to the PC's prestige afterwards:)?

Also, selling Vrisa as a common slave? That's like hacking a new computer prototype and selling the precious metals in it:D!

I wonder whether to laugh at the IC ineptitude, or at the OOC ineptitude displayed in that story.


Might it be the ships were of a different model?
(On my version of Tekumel, the main ships are praus and junks, followed by cogs, galeras, giant pseudo-balsa wood rafts and reed boats. If anyone has a brig, it would be a great asset!
I get it Phil was using different ones, but it's a topic where I've chosen to diverge from canon. Nothing says "you're not in Kansas any more" to players better than embarking a wooden ship and then having a reed boat being faster and less susceptible to storms).

An index of TStPT would definitely be a great idea;)!


It is indeed one of the very saddest of stories. I'm still heartbroken about it to this day - what could have been...

In that group, getting the better of Vrisa was a big prestige item; they have the philosophy of 'the bigger my enemy, the more important I am!'. Which may be why gaming out at Phil's pretty much died, under their reign.

I would like to submit that your views on ships are still well within 'canon', whatever the heck that is. If it floated, we saw it in Phil's campaign, and I've sailed on all the types you describe. Most of them are in my basement as models to. May I commend to you this excellent blog, and an even more excellent work by the author:

http://dualdais.blogspot.com/ (http://dualdais.blogspot.com/)

I will take your advice, and start on that index! Thank you!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 14, 2016, 02:24:02 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;891654
Was Phil the GM of that Thursday Group?


Yes, he was. His philosophy was that the players had 'full player agency', as I think it's called these days, and we could do anything we wanted to - the only area of the campaign that we could not affect were the plot lines for his novels. Otherwise, there were no real limits. The 1990s group was a return to the kind of very nasty power gaming that the original group - later, the Monday Night Group - enjoyed, and which we did not like; that's why we split in the first place.

The downside of this philosophy is that things can get really, really toxic. I had the same situation develop in my own game group, with one of the original 1974 players demanding that she be given first choice of anything in game and out simply because of her prestige and seniority as one of the 1974 players. She eventually drove all my younger players away, and was one of the primary causes I closed down the group.

Repeated warnings had no effect. She was simply perfect, in every way, in her view and the rest of us didn't matter.

I frankly don't miss her.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 14, 2016, 02:26:54 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;891685
Jesus wept.

I'm too busy being heartbroken to be angry.  For now.


Welcome to the last twenty-five years of my life, my General. (Now do you get an idea of why I didn't go to Gary Con?)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 14, 2016, 02:28:19 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;891696
That is what breaks my heart...Tekumel has so much great stuff, but thinking about what it could have been. Seems the same old stuff is still happening today with prospective projects...

The Professor's, Dave S's, and Kathy's illustrations really do define Tekumel for me...

H:0)


Agreed. That was the Tekumel that was, and the Tekumel I lived in. All I can do now is tell you about it, and hope...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 14, 2016, 02:56:42 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;891634
"Oh, and by the way, could you hurry up on that artwork?" she was told. That's when she walked out.

And with that explanation, she turned and left. Never came back to Tekumel, either. I had the shakes for the next two days.

Sad little postscript: When I called to let her know about Phil's memorial event, her husband gave me a polite brush-off. Can't say as I blame them, my General.

Does this put my rage in perspective for you, my General?

Kathy and her amazing talent for illustrating Phil's imagination. Gone, my General.

Words fail. :eek: :( :mad:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 14, 2016, 02:57:46 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;891736
It is indeed one of the very saddest of stories. I'm still heartbroken about it to this day - what could have been...

In that group, getting the better of Vrisa was a big prestige item; they have the philosophy of 'the bigger my enemy, the more important I am!'. Which may be why gaming out at Phil's pretty much died, under their reign.

Great, except this isn't about them* anymore. I'm talking about the way the NPCs reacted (probably more sensibly than the PCs, too). I suspect such an act might make them outcasts at any kind of good society there is in Tsolyanu.
Just how long can a PC live this way? Not too long, in my experience.

*Much as they'd probably prefer everything to be about them:).

Quote
I would like to submit that your views on ships are still well within 'canon', whatever the heck that is. If it floated, we saw it in Phil's campaign, and I've sailed on all the types you describe. Most of them are in my basement as models to. May I commend to you this excellent blog, and an even more excellent work by the author:

http://dualdais.blogspot.com/ (http://dualdais.blogspot.com/)

OK, that surprises me - in a good way. I just picked the most ancient types I know of, and mixed them with some newer but archaic-looking designs;).


Quote
I will take your advice, and start on that index! Thank you!

May Ctrl+F guide you:D!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;891745
Agreed. That was the Tekumel that was, and the Tekumel I lived in. All I can do now is tell you about it, and hope...

Well, it's enough for me. We can make it this way again, at least on our tables;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 14, 2016, 08:24:33 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;891738

1. Yes, he was. His philosophy was that the players had 'full player agency', as I think it's called these days, and we could do anything we wanted to - the only area of the campaign that we could not affect were the plot lines for his novels. Otherwise, there were no real limits. The 1990s group was a return to the kind of very nasty power gaming that the original group - later, the Monday Night Group - enjoyed, and which we did not like; that's why we split in the first place.

2.The downside of this philosophy is that things can get really, really toxic. I had the same situation develop in my own game group, with one of the original 1974 players demanding that she be given first choice of anything in game and out simply because of her prestige and seniority as one of the 1974 players. She eventually drove all my younger players away, and was one of the primary causes I closed down the group.

Repeated warnings had no effect. She was simply perfect, in every way, in her view and the rest of us didn't matter.

I frankly don't miss her.


Chirine,

Wow! Well, how about that?
I didn't mean to open up a can of worms by posting that pic. What a shitty thing to do to a player's character. Especially one into which she had invested so much time.

1. I understand Phil's rationale behind allowing this type of game play, but I have to say I have never allowed this in my games. Very early on I made a conscious decision that certain things were just not going to be played out. Rape, extreme (graphic) sexuality, human sacrifices, demonic/diabolic rituals, torture, and wanton sadism were (and still are) completely out. Even though these things certainly happened in the game world, normally, they were the things the bad guys did. I told my players the reason behind my decision and if they wanted me to DM they would have to respect my wishes. I have stuck to my guns ever since.  Well that was 34+ years ago and the campaign is still going, and two of the original six are still showing up. Of the other four, three are physically not able to attend or they would, and the last one fell off the face of the earth a long time ago.  
When situations arose that  forced the party into more "questionable" behaviour I would, and still do, typically gloss over this part of the game.
The extremely slow killing of a pimp in the Foreign Quarter of a certain city comes to mind... The player said he wanted to send a message, and he did.

2. I have zero patience for the type of behaviour you describe. If any of my players behaved this way they would certainly get the boot! It's supposed to be a gaming group. That means everyone gets to have fun, and participate, and get the loot. If she wants to be the precious snowflake then she should find a DM who will run a solo game for her. Or, maybe, she could try the new interactive Tekumel novel. UFB.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 14, 2016, 08:40:34 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;891636
Yep. Please see post #2592. And people wonder why, after thirty-five years of this sort of thing, I get into these 'cranky old man' moods.


Get off my Sakbe Road! :)

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 14, 2016, 08:56:32 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;891753


Originally Posted by chirine ba kal View Post

Agreed. That was the Tekumel that was, and the Tekumel I lived in. All I can do now is tell you about it, and hope...

Well, it's enough for me. We can make it this way again, at least on our tables;).


Yes sir. You've got that right. This thread is kind of like a nexus point. It has helped to get me "back" to the old Tekumel (at least my version of it).

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 14, 2016, 09:12:42 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;891736
It is indeed one of the very saddest of stories. I'm still heartbroken about it to this day - what could have been...

In that group, getting the better of Vrisa was a big prestige item; they have the philosophy of 'the bigger my enemy, the more important I am!'. Which may be why gaming out at Phil's pretty much died, under their reign.



I wonder how much of this was actually due to envy, or outright jealousy. To me it sounds like they were manipulating the situation created by Phil (regarding player freedom) in order to purge any trace of the "original Thursday Night Group". Judging by the insecurity many of them seem to have, with regards to yourself, I can see this as a motivator (at least subconsciously). Was Lady Vrisa the only original one left from yours and the Glorious General's  playing days? Did any of the old Monday Night Group swing over to Thursday? What I find especially disheartening is that Phil allowed this to take place. Just spit-balling here.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 14, 2016, 09:30:03 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;891742
Welcome to the last twenty-five years of my life, my General. (Now do you get an idea of why I didn't go to Gary Con?)


Well, I can see why you wouldn't run anything.  Perhaps one day you'll be able to simply come and play historical miniatures.  (Now I know why you like Pike and Shot era so much!)

But as we've discussed, I have to confess it ain't cheap.  Last GaryCon cost me about $500 just for travel, bread, and board, not including the time off from work without pay.

Worth it, but very definitely "a major vacation expense."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 14, 2016, 09:56:53 PM
Phil's most serious failing as a game master was that he let the "reality" of Tekumel override the players' fun.  Not in the sense of "this game is too hard," but in the example of Vrisa, for instance, not putting his foot down and saying "No.  You do NOT have the right to ruin somebody else's fun."

As I said above, if everybody is OK with it, what X number of consenting adults do at their gaming table is their business.

But NOBODY has the right to ruin anybody else's fun.  If somebody says "But that's what the world is like" or "but that's what my character would do," punch them in the nadgers so hard their nose bleeds.

If your character is an asshole it's because you CHOSE to make them an asshole.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 14, 2016, 09:58:02 PM
On a lighter note... the Russian Tea Shop in St. Paul is still open, and their piroshki are as good as ever!

But their hours are VERY limited.  I think it's now Noon to 3 on Fridays only.

But... PIROSHKI!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 15, 2016, 02:44:45 AM
From AsenRG:Great, except this isn't about them* anymore. I'm talking about the way the NPCs reacted (probably more sensibly than the PCs, too). I suspect such an act might make them outcasts at any kind of good society there is in Tsolyanu.
Just how long can a PC live this way? Not too long, in my experience.

*Much as they'd probably prefer everything to be about them:).


Oh, understood. There was no in-game reaction, I have been told by the people who were there that night. Phil, in what I thought was a real black mark against his career as a GM, simply let it stand and ignored it. A lot of people who knew him and had gamed with him were very shocked, for just the reasons you give; we thought better of him then that, and we expected a very negative reaction from the NPCs. Instead, nothing.

[On ships] OK, that surprises me - in a good way. I just picked the most ancient types I know of, and mixed them with some newer but archaic-looking designs;).

Phil did the same thing. You're in good company. :)

May Ctrl+F guide you:D!

I'm sorry; I'm not very good with computers. What does 'control F' do? I'm also Mac-based, if that's any help.

Well, it's enough for me. We can make it this way again, at least on our tables;).

Agreed; there will be better days. These things happen in cycles, if the past thirty years are any indication.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 15, 2016, 02:51:22 AM
From Shemek hiTankolel:

Wow! Well, how about that?
I didn't mean to open up a can of worms by posting that pic. What a shitty thing to do to a player's character. Especially one into which she had invested so much time.


No problem; you didn;t know. What you are seeing is the endless politics and intrigues around Phil's game table that resulted in successive cliques coming in to try to run things 'their way' over the years. Tekumel's present situation is the result of that.

1. I understand Phil's rationale behind allowing this type of game play, but I have to say I have never allowed this in my games. Very early on I made a conscious decision that certain things were just not going to be played out. Rape, extreme (graphic) sexuality, human sacrifices, demonic/diabolic rituals, torture, and wanton sadism were (and still are) completely out. Even though these things certainly happened in the game world, normally, they were the things the bad guys did. I told my players the reason behind my decision and if they wanted me to DM they would have to respect my wishes. I have stuck to my guns ever since.  Well that was 34+ years ago and the campaign is still going, and two of the original six are still showing up. Of the other four, three are physically not able to attend or they would, and the last one fell off the face of the earth a long time ago.  
When situations arose that  forced the party into more "questionable" behaviour I would, and still do, typically gloss over this part of the game.
The extremely slow killing of a pimp in the Foreign Quarter of a certain city comes to mind... The player said he wanted to send a message, and he did.


I strongly agree with this; it's the way we played, and we took endless amounts of crap for it from the other group; they acted this kind of thing out regularly - see also Gary Fine's "Shared Fantasy" - and it was like kides being naughty behind the barn. Gronan can speak to this as well, but I think we were a more 'mature' and 'adult' group; all we wanted to do was explore the place, ad have some adventures.

2. I have zero patience for the type of behaviour you describe. If any of my players behaved this way they would certainly get the boot! It's supposed to be a gaming group. That means everyone gets to have fun, and participate, and get the loot. If she wants to be the precious snowflake then she should find a DM who will run a solo game for her. Or, maybe, she could try the new interactive Tekumel novel. UFB.

Which is why she got the boot. Likewise, I dropped her now-current GM, the guy who was pushing the age-inappropriate adventure; their group lasted for a couple of sessions, and is now on 'hiatus'. Good riddance, is my feeling.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 15, 2016, 02:53:52 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;891816
Get off my Sakbe Road! :)

Shemek


Which one? I have two. One for the central empire, 14' in the model,  and one for the decrepit one out past Hekellu where we fought the Battle of Anch'ke. That one is sized for a 140" game table.

Two Sakbe roads? The man is a lunatic, folks... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 15, 2016, 02:54:59 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;891817
Yes sir. You've got that right. This thread is kind of like a nexus point. It has helped to get me "back" to the old Tekumel (at least my version of it).

Shemek


For which, I am delighted! I much prefer those early years; they were a lot more fun.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 15, 2016, 02:59:43 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;891820
I wonder how much of this was actually due to envy, or outright jealousy. To me it sounds like they were manipulating the situation created by Phil (regarding player freedom) in order to purge any trace of the "original Thursday Night Group". Judging by the insecurity many of them seem to have, with regards to yourself, I can see this as a motivator (at least subconsciously). Was Lady Vrisa the only original one left from yours and the Glorious General's  playing days? Did any of the old Monday Night Group swing over to Thursday? What I find especially disheartening is that Phil allowed this to take place. Just spit-balling here.

Shemek


Most of it was both envy and jealousy; Kathy was replaced as 'house artist' by one of their clique. And yes, I think she was just about the last one out the door.

No. The original MNG group had all quit by the middle 1980s, and had been replaced by a new group; one or two of them did translate over, when both groups collapsed shortly after this incident. The half-dozen people left took the name of our group, for the 'prestige' they told me. (These guys cannot keep their mouths shut.)

Agreed A lot of people were very hurt and disappointed, and Phil's 'social standing dropped like a rock. A lot of very good and talented people dropped away, and the situation never recovered.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 15, 2016, 03:06:16 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;891827
Well, I can see why you wouldn't run anything.  Perhaps one day you'll be able to simply come and play historical miniatures.  (Now I know why you like Pike and Shot era so much!)

But as we've discussed, I have to confess it ain't cheap.  Last GaryCon cost me about $500 just for travel, bread, and board, not including the time off from work without pay.

Worth it, but very definitely "a major vacation expense."


Understood. I lost about all my interest in historical miniatures at the hands of the 'real gamers', and haven't been back since the late 1980s. Did play a fun game at Dave Wesely's about three years ago, though.

Agreed about the cost. I do get paid vacations - I'm taking one in four weeks - but they are hard to accrue. Costs are also a major factor; I could pay you to come and game, and still come out ahead. Factor in my health and all the horrible hotel / motel rooms I've had to stay in over the decades, and I just can't see it. If I am not having fun, why am I paying for it?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 15, 2016, 03:07:44 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;891832
Phil's most serious failing as a game master was that he let the "reality" of Tekumel override the players' fun.  Not in the sense of "this game is too hard," but in the example of Vrisa, for instance, not putting his foot down and saying "No.  You do NOT have the right to ruin somebody else's fun."

As I said above, if everybody is OK with it, what X number of consenting adults do at their gaming table is their business.

But NOBODY has the right to ruin anybody else's fun.  If somebody says "But that's what the world is like" or "but that's what my character would do," punch them in the nadgers so hard their nose bleeds.

If your character is an asshole it's because you CHOSE to make them an asshole.


I think that this is the best summary of the situation that I've ever seen; you're right on the money, here. And I agree; it was Phil's major failing as a GM.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 15, 2016, 03:10:08 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;891833
On a lighter note... the Russian Tea Shop in St. Paul is still open, and their piroshki are as good as ever!

But their hours are VERY limited.  I think it's now Noon to 3 on Fridays only.

But... PIROSHKI!


Agreed! We used to gorge on these at AGI, after we moved to 1278 Selby.

Served hot, sliced in half with a dollop of sour cream in each half; you can't go wrong, here... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 15, 2016, 04:22:40 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;891817
Yes sir. You've got that right. This thread is kind of like a nexus point. It has helped to get me "back" to the old Tekumel (at least my version of it).

Shemek

The "old" Tekumel is impressively like almost all the good games I've seen. So that can only be a good thing:).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;891832
Phil's most serious failing as a game master was that he let the "reality" of Tekumel override the players' fun.  Not in the sense of "this game is too hard," but in the example of Vrisa, for instance, not putting his foot down and saying "No.  You do NOT have the right to ruin somebody else's fun."

As I said above, if everybody is OK with it, what X number of consenting adults do at their gaming table is their business.

But NOBODY has the right to ruin anybody else's fun.  If somebody says "But that's what the world is like" or "but that's what my character would do," punch them in the nadgers so hard their nose bleeds.

If your character is an asshole it's because you CHOSE to make them an asshole.

Well, I admit that this might be my biggest failing when Refereeing as well (and I've got other failings, too;)!)
Though I usually tend to address it, it's just not by "not letting it happen". OOC problems are best solved OOC, after all.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;891859
From AsenRG:Great, except this isn't about them* anymore. I'm talking about the way the NPCs reacted (probably more sensibly than the PCs, too). I suspect such an act might make them outcasts at any kind of good society there is in Tsolyanu.
Just how long can a PC live this way? Not too long, in my experience.

*Much as they'd probably prefer everything to be about them:).


Oh, understood. There was no in-game reaction, I have been told by the people who were there that night. Phil, in what I thought was a real black mark against his career as a GM, simply let it stand and ignored it. A lot of people who knew him and had gamed with him were very shocked, for just the reasons you give; we thought better of him then that, and we expected a very negative reaction from the NPCs. Instead, nothing.

Count me with those that were shocked, please;).
I might let it happen, in the same situation, after an OOC chat...but even if both players agreed, there's no way I'd let the consequences slide.

Quote
[On ships] OK, that surprises me - in a good way. I just picked the most ancient types I know of, and mixed them with some newer but archaic-looking designs;).

Phil did the same thing. You're in good company. :)

That's definitely good company!
Wasn't Harchar's ship a later model, though?

Quote
May Ctrl+F guide you:D!

I'm sorry; I'm not very good with computers. What does 'control F' do? I'm also Mac-based, if that's any help.

CTRL+F, pressed together, activate your "find" function. You just type, say, a name in the window that opens, and when you press "Enter", it finds all places in the text where this name is located (or takes you to the closest one of them in turn and highlights it in the text-depends on what program you're using). It can also look for a phrase, or for parts of a word. If you suspect having made a typo in a long word, look for part of it.
Basically, just take a sheet of paper, and you can make an index in a couple hours. It's also very useful for referencing PDFs during play. In fact, with a fast machine, it's faster than searching for a page in a physical book.

Never had a Mac myself, but Internet just told me that they have the same command. They don't use "CTRL+F", though.
Instead, it seems the same command in Mac is "command F".

Quote
Well, it's enough for me. We can make it this way again, at least on our tables;).

Agreed; there will be better days. These things happen in cycles, if the past thirty years are any indication.

My observations confirm this:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 15, 2016, 11:37:49 AM
So, out of curiosity, how many people on this thread are currently running a Tekumel game or campaign? Lord Chirine, are you running anything you can share with us? How about you Glorious General?
If so, what era, and what location? I'm currently adventuring in the Three States of the Triangle/early Dragon Warriors era. The party is exploring to the far Northeast, in what will be Northern Pechano/Kilalammu in a few thousand years or so. That bastard demon really screwed them over:D

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on April 15, 2016, 01:08:51 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;891945
So, out of curiosity, how many people on this thread are currently running a Tekumel game or campaign?


Timidly raises hand.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on April 15, 2016, 01:34:04 PM
Not a pure Tekumel campaign exactly but heavily heavily heavily inspired by. The DNA is probably 75% Tekumel, or greater.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 15, 2016, 01:35:01 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;891945
So, out of curiosity, how many people on this thread are currently running a Tekumel game or campaign? Lord Chirine, are you running anything you can share with us? How about you Glorious General?
If so, what era, and what location? I'm currently adventuring in the Three States of the Triangle/early Dragon Warriors era. The party is exploring to the far Northeast, in what will be Northern Pechano/Kilalammu in a few thousand years or so. That bastard demon really screwed them over:D

Shemek.


I have played. Had a great time. Big plans for campagins...not yet happened!!!

Exit(nexus point)...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 15, 2016, 01:38:18 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;891945
So, out of curiosity, how many people on this thread are currently running a Tekumel game or campaign? Lord Chirine, are you running anything you can share with us? How about you Glorious General?
If so, what era, and what location? I'm currently adventuring in the Three States of the Triangle/early Dragon Warriors era. The party is exploring to the far Northeast, in what will be Northern Pechano/Kilalammu in a few thousand years or so. That bastard demon really screwed them over:D

Shemek.

Me too, roughly "contemporary" era, but set in Lyvianu. A character even briefly glimpsed lord Chirine ba Kal during one of his visits.
During this time, a PC unwittingly helped a surge in the Lyviani campaign for "pacification" of the Tsolei isles, and the sending of Tsolyani "advisors" (by chasing away a spy). Then there was a timeskip of almost 20 years, because visiting other dimensions might do that to you. As a bonus, now the same character's son is a grown-up and got in the Navy:)!
Now they are in the midst of a war campaign, with the usual chaos. And a friend has recently been kidnapped by an inimical race. They might have to mount a raid to extract her;).
All in all, it's much fun, just don't ask me what system I'm using, because I suspect the answer will make for a huge off-topic discussion:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 15, 2016, 02:05:29 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;891986
Me too, roughly "contemporary" era, but set in Lyvianu. A character even briefly glimpsed lord Chirine ba Kal during one of his visits.
During this time, a PC unwittingly helped a surge in the Lyviani campaign for "pacification" of the Tsolei isles, and the sending of Tsolyani "advisors" (by chasing away a spy). Then there was a timeskip of almost 20 years, because visiting other dimensions might do that to you. As a bonus, now the same character's son is a grown-up and got in the Navy:)!
Now they are in the midst of a war campaign, with the usual chaos. And a friend has recently been kidnapped by an inimical race. They might have to mount a raid to extract her;).
All in all, it's much fun, just don't ask me what system I'm using, because I suspect the answer will make for a huge off-topic discussion:D!


Cool!!! I envy all of you!!! I guess I will need to make a campagin happen for me!!! No regular Tekumel gaming groups that I know of close by...

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 15, 2016, 02:13:49 PM
From AsenRG:
That's definitely good company!
Wasn't Harchar's ship a later model, though
?

Harchar's big merchant ship is basically an early 1500's version of a galleon; Phil's cut-off was, like his land-based gaming, the introduction of gunpowder. ("It stains the carpet on the game table," he said.) So, pretty much anything that would float, up to the Mary Rose, is fair game.

CTRL+F, pressed together, activate your "find" function. You just type, say, a name in the window that opens, and when you press "Enter", it finds all places in the text where this name is located (or takes you to the closest one of them in turn and highlights it in the text-depends on what program you're using). It can also look for a phrase, or for parts of a word. If you suspect having made a typo in a long word, look for part of it.
Basically, just take a sheet of paper, and you can make an index in a couple hours. It's also very useful for referencing PDFs during play. In fact, with a fast machine, it's faster than searching for a page in a physical book.

Never had a Mac myself, but Internet just told me that they have the same command. They don't use "CTRL+F", though.
Instead, it seems the same command in Mac is "command F".


Oh! Very, very cool! I did not know this, and I shall try it out this weekend!!! Thank you!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 15, 2016, 02:21:59 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;891945
So, out of curiosity, how many people on this thread are currently running a Tekumel game or campaign? Lord Chirine, are you running anything you can share with us? How about you Glorious General?
If so, what era, and what location? I'm currently adventuring in the Three States of the Triangle/early Dragon Warriors era. The party is exploring to the far Northeast, in what will be Northern Pechano/Kilalammu in a few thousand years or so. That bastard demon really screwed them over:D

Shemek.


No, I am not. The game campaign that I started in 2002 has been shut down, due to the surge in political factions amongst the players - one of these factions were the people I had to pay $800 in legal fees to get rid of. The last few years, I found that I was spending far more time chasing people down to play then I was actually doing the games; so, what I've done is to pass that job over to all the people who told me that a) I was doing it all wrong, b) that I was including the wrong kind of people, and c) I was not fit to represent their Tekumel - I am not 'metrosexual' enough, I was told.

So, the game room sits quietly, awaiting the next group of adventurers. If somebody wanted to organize up a game group, I'll be delighted to run a campaign for them. I paint and I write, and am enjoying being alive. I'm patient; I've been here before... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 15, 2016, 02:23:17 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;891974
Timidly raises hand.
=


Wonderful!!! Let me know if you need anything! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 15, 2016, 02:39:35 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;892006
No, I am not. The game campaign that I started in 2002 has been shut down, due to the surge in political factions amongst the players - one of these factions were the people I had to pay $800 in legal fees to get rid of. The last few years, I found that I was spending far more time chasing people down to play then I was actually doing the games; so, what I've done is to pass that job over to all the people who told me that a) I was doing it all wrong, b) that I was including the wrong kind of people, and c) I was not fit to represent their Tekumel - I am not 'metrosexual' enough, I was told.

So, the game room sits quietly, awaiting the next group of adventurers. If somebody wanted to organize up a game group, I'll be delighted to run a campaign for them. I paint and I write, and am enjoying being alive. I'm patient; I've been here before... :)


We should plan a field trip to the Workbench for a weekend tour and game!!! That would be a dream come true!!! With Uncle's permission of course...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 15, 2016, 04:46:11 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;892000
Cool!!! I envy all of you!!! I guess I will need to make a campagin happen for me!!! No regular Tekumel gaming groups that I know of close by...

H;0)

That's why I learned to be a Referee. Nobody else wanted to run the games I wanted to play:).
And, though I prefer playing, my attitude always has been that it's better to run a game I want than play a game I don't care about;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;892003
From AsenRG:
That's definitely good company!
Wasn't Harchar's ship a later model, though
?

Harchar's big merchant ship is basically an early 1500's version of a galleon; Phil's cut-off was, like his land-based gaming, the introduction of gunpowder. ("It stains the carpet on the game table," he said.) So, pretty much anything that would float, up to the Mary Rose, is fair game.

That's very interesting! I thought it's a brigandine or similar, for some reason.

Quote
Oh! Very, very cool! I did not know this, and I shall try it out this weekend!!! Thank you!!! :)

You're welcome, Uncle! Usually, the same option allow you to replace words, and similar stuff...but I've never even seen a Mac:D.
So I found you a couple articles that should be useful, instead.
Key combinations for Mac. (http://help.filemaker.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/6493/~/text-keyboard-shortcuts-(mac-os))
If you're using Word for Mac 2011. (https://support.office.com/en-us/article/Find-and-replace-text-or-formatting-4225674b-4e08-46a2-b0fa-2d3b217d2611)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;892006
No, I am not. The game campaign that I started in 2002 has been shut down, due to the surge in political factions amongst the players - one of these factions were the people I had to pay $800 in legal fees to get rid of. The last few years, I found that I was spending far more time chasing people down to play then I was actually doing the games; so, what I've done is to pass that job over to all the people who told me that a) I was doing it all wrong, b) that I was including the wrong kind of people, and c) I was not fit to represent their Tekumel - I am not 'metrosexual' enough, I was told.

So, the game room sits quietly, awaiting the next group of adventurers. If somebody wanted to organize up a game group, I'll be delighted to run a campaign for them. I paint and I write, and am enjoying being alive. I'm patient; I've been here before... :)

I'm quite the opposite of "metrosexual", myself. If anyone wants me to shave in order to run a game for them, he or she is free to leave and find another group.

Quote from: Hrugga;892013
We should plan a field trip to the Workbench for a weekend tour and game!!! That would be a dream come true!!! With Uncle's permission of course...

H:0)

If I wasn't on a different continent, I'd totally do that! But as it is, my ticket is more expansive than Gronan's stay on a con;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 15, 2016, 04:55:11 PM
It's good to see that we have a few games on the go here.

Greentongue    
Quote:
Timidly raises hand.


When's it set? Are you keeping to the "official" story line?

Quote:
Big Andy    Not a pure Tekumel campaign exactly but heavily heavily heavily inspired by. The DNA is probably 75% Tekumel, or greater.


Cool. That's how the current incarnation of  my game initially started out.

AsenRG    
Quote:

Me too, roughly "contemporary" era, but set in Lyvianu. A character even briefly glimpsed lord Chirine ba Kal during one of his visits.
During this time, a PC unwittingly helped a surge in the Lyviani campaign for "pacification" of the Tsolei isles, and the sending of Tsolyani "advisors" (by chasing away a spy). Then there was a timeskip of almost 20 years, because visiting other dimensions might do that to you. As a bonus, now the same character's son is a grown-up and got in the Navy!
Now they are in the midst of a war campaign, with the usual chaos. And a friend has recently been kidnapped by an inimical race. They might have to mount a raid to extract her.
All in all, it's much fun, just don't ask me what system I'm using, because I suspect the answer will make for a huge off-topic discussion!


That sounds great! I plan on having the group catching a glimpse of Lord Chirine, and the Glorious General, if they ever get to that time line:p
System, Shmystem. I use what ever works to fairly resolve what is being portrayed. I guess my core rules are a combination of EPT, and AD&D 1st ed. (with a little bit of 2nd thrown in). I have been gradually trying to get away from rule systems for at least the last 5 years or so, but still encounter resistance from they guys. Ideally I would like to use the type of system Phil employed in his game, as described on the Tekumel website, supplemented with EPT/AD&D for larger battles, or other very specific encounter types as needed.

Hrugga    
Quote:
Cool!!! I envy all of you!!! I guess I will need to make a campagin happen for me!!! No regular Tekumel gaming groups that I know of close by...


Set up a "regular" game, and work in Tekumel gradually if the players are adverse to it initially, or unfamiliar with the world. My group fought me tooth and nail when I first started to bring in large elements of Tekumel into my gaming world. They were more comfortable with the Tolkienesque, REH, and Moorcock universes. Tekumel was too weird and hard for them to "properly" enjoy. "The names are unpronounceable" one of my old players once said. Well, instead of making the game a linguistics or anthropology course I played it like I wanted it to be: a good old fashioned sword and sorcery romp. The players have not adventured on my original game world for decades! Those original characters are now fully integrated into Tsolyani society, having worked their way up into senior and respectable positions and clans, respectively, within the Imperium.
You, or perhaps someone on this thread, could also set up a PBEM game. I would certainly be in for that.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 15, 2016, 05:09:20 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;892006
No, I am not. The game campaign that I started in 2002 has been shut down, due to the surge in political factions amongst the players - one of these factions were the people I had to pay $800 in legal fees to get rid of. The last few years, I found that I was spending far more time chasing people down to play then I was actually doing the games; so, what I've done is to pass that job over to all the people who told me that a) I was doing it all wrong, b) that I was including the wrong kind of people, and c) I was not fit to represent their Tekumel - I am not 'metrosexual' enough, I was told.

So, the game room sits quietly, awaiting the next group of adventurers. If somebody wanted to organize up a game group, I'll be delighted to run a campaign for them. I paint and I write, and am enjoying being alive. I'm patient; I've been here before... :)



Now that's a tragic waste. But, as I am sure you well know, you are better off rid of them. $800 is a good chunk of cash, but a small amount to have pay for peace of mind, and freedom from stupidity.
This PC monkey business wears thin after a second or two. My response to these type of people is: "Go and f*** yourselves, and leave me the f*** alone! The store is now closed and don't let the door knob hit you on the way out".
If I were even close to Minni I would take you up on that offer. A 14+ hour drive is not something I feel like doing anymore. Did you consider, trying to get a new group together, or maybe some type of PBEM game? Like I said to Hrugga, I would be in for something like that. Maybe we could get the Glorious General involved as well ;)

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 15, 2016, 05:11:34 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;892013
We should plan a field trip to the Workbench for a weekend tour and game!!! That would be a dream come true!!! With Uncle's permission of course...

H:0)


With advanced planning, and Lord Chirine's acquiescence, maybe...

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 15, 2016, 05:18:23 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;892044

I'm quite the opposite of "metrosexual", myself. If anyone wants me to shave in order to run a game for them, he or she is free to leave and find another group.


I have been called many things in my life, but I can honestly say that no one has ever accused me of this. :rotfl::rotfl: As I told my wife long ago, the beard is not negotiable. Although, as a concession to peace and prosperity, etc, etc, I did shave it down to a goatee.

Shemek
(The somewhat bearded)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Opaopajr on April 15, 2016, 05:21:36 PM
Wow, that's some ugly, and personal, PvP power gaming.

As GM I would pause and ask if they really want to go that far, because that's just asking for a massive shift in table mood. That should have been an OOC talk way before. Stables of alternate characters and general setting turbulence should have nipped the potential for this level of coup de grace in the bud.

I dig PvP if it works for the campaign premise and table, but I don't let vicious total victories occur. (Because mostly I don't believe in total victories, as "circumstance" is normally so ingenious to thwart best layed plans and all.) With random events and plentiful NPC antagonists most PvP campagins should never feel so controlled and malleable so as to get to that point.

I'll flat out say it, bad and lazy GMing -- particulary being led by the nose by more domineering players -- had to be a factor at that point.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on April 15, 2016, 06:37:14 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;892008
Wonderful!!! Let me know if you need anything! :)


I have and you have answered.
Thanks.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 15, 2016, 07:41:37 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;892050
With advanced planning, and Lord Chirine's acquiescence, maybe...

Shemek


No problem. I don't mind sending Uncle any and all pertinent information in regard to myself. Alas, I'm not free till late October...But as you say with the proper refrences and introductions, those able should meet for a weekend of Tekumel fun!!!

As far as a PBEM game goes...I'm in. It may end up a snail game, but you gotta do, what you gotta do for Tekumel!!!

H:0)

PS I'm like a Tekumel junky, I need it. Crave it...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on April 15, 2016, 07:52:36 PM
I only recently discovered this thread, and I have now registered here as a result (been reading the forum for a while but never got round to registering).

I have run a few Tekumel games, using a hacked version of Sandy Petersen's RuneQuest rules, for our group, but nothing much recently alas. No-one else knew anything about Tekumel, but it was no problem for them to pick it up. I did do the "barbarians off the boat" start.

Great thread.

I do have a question though, if I may: I seem to remember reading (and I think it's in one of the Adventures on Tekumel books), that in a ritual somewhere under Jakalla, there were priests of some of the Pariah Gods present (The Only Old One, perhaps?). Certainly there were obvious symbols of the PGs being held up. Is there any information on this, or on what was going on?

thanks,

Mark
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 15, 2016, 09:33:26 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;891832
Phil's most serious failing as a game master was that he let the "reality" of Tekumel override the players' fun.  Not in the sense of "this game is too hard," but in the example of Vrisa, for instance, not putting his foot down and saying "No.  You do NOT have the right to ruin somebody else's fun."

As I said above, if everybody is OK with it, what X number of consenting adults do at their gaming table is their business.

But NOBODY has the right to ruin anybody else's fun.  If somebody says "But that's what the world is like" or "but that's what my character would do," punch them in the nadgers so hard their nose bleeds.

If your character is an asshole it's because you CHOSE to make them an asshole.


You know what?  I have to unsay the entire message above.

You see, I have been guilty of "anachronistic thinking."  I am evaluating Phil's reffing of TWENTY YEARS AGO by the standards of today.

Let me put it in perspective for you.  I played in Tekumel from 1974 until 1985.  1985 is ELEVEN YEARS AFTER THE FIRST PUBLICATION OF D&D.

The events with Kathy that Chirine described are "mid 1990s."  That's 20 YEARS AGO.  And twenty years after D&D first appeared.

Gaming was still in its adolescence, if not infancy.  Most of the terms we've been bandying about simply didn't exist as ideas.  Shit on toast almighty, this is when "Internet' meant using a dialup modem to access America Onlline.

Phil was reffing by the standard wisdom of the day:  the referee is a neutral arbiter, and the players can do what the players want.  If that results in player vs player conflict, it is up to the referee to be neutral.  If some of the players don't like it, it is for the players to sort out among themselves.

Hell, it's only the last five years or so that I've seen the notion of "Be as explicit as possible about expectations" get any traction.  It's twenty years after these events, and people are STILL trying to figure out how it all works.

We are simply being very unfair, and indulging in sloppy thinking.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on April 15, 2016, 11:47:06 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;892091
You know what?  I have to unsay the entire message above.

You see, I have been guilty of "anachronistic thinking."  I am evaluating Phil's reffing of TWENTY YEARS AGO by the standards of today.

Let me put it in perspective for you.  I played in Tekumel from 1974 until 1985.  1985 is ELEVEN YEARS AFTER THE FIRST PUBLICATION OF D&D.

The events with Kathy that Chirine described are "mid 1990s."  That's 20 YEARS AGO.  And twenty years after D&D first appeared.

Gaming was still in its adolescence, if not infancy.  Most of the terms we've been bandying about simply didn't exist as ideas.  Shit on toast almighty, this is when "Internet' meant using a dialup modem to access America Onlline.

Phil was reffing by the standard wisdom of the day:  the referee is a neutral arbiter, and the players can do what the players want.  If that results in player vs player conflict, it is up to the referee to be neutral.  If some of the players don't like it, it is for the players to sort out among themselves.

Hell, it's only the last five years or so that I've seen the notion of "Be as explicit as possible about expectations" get any traction.  It's twenty years after these events, and people are STILL trying to figure out how it all works.

We are simply being very unfair, and indulging in sloppy thinking.


I dunno, was "'PvP' sexual harassment, sexual abuse, torture, and rape" ok in 1980?  I'm not sure exactly what Chirine was talking about when he said The continuing and graphic in-game 'PvP' sexual harassment, sexual abuse, torture, and rape that she had had to put up with as Vrisa.  I don't know if that meant all that was something the player witnessed the party due to others or was some of that an ongoing attack on Vrisa?

In any case, being drugged and sold as a slave isn't the worst thing you can do to a PC by far, but what else was involved there?

This has nothing to do with "setting player expectations" and all the new-fangled panty-bunching for the fainting couch crowd, this is Rule Zero of all gaming - "Don't use the game as an excuse to be a dick".

This doesn't sound like friends fucking eachother over gleefully while playing Diplomacy or Paranoia, or even the Thief deciding he needs a little kicker for all the poison traps he faces.  This sounds Real Life Personal.

You were right the first time.  Phil, being human, fucked up royally.  If those types of players were coming to dominate his groups, then more of his friends needed to call him out on that bullshit back then.

I don't know the situation, so forgive me for pulling something out of my ass, but this sounds a little bit like a really popular famous figure attracting a group of sycophants and starting to believe their bullshit.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 16, 2016, 12:38:34 AM
Ever read Bimbos of the Death Sun?  In the in-game D&D game a teenaged couple is going to have their characters get married and the rest of the group conspires to secretly have his character killed and a double inserted.

1988.  It was a common enough trope to be satirized.

Good gaming?  Fuck no.  Functional?  Of course not.

Common?  A different question.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 16, 2016, 01:48:45 AM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));892077

I do have a question though, if I may: I seem to remember reading (and I think it's in one of the Adventures on Tekumel books), that in a ritual somewhere under Jakalla, there were priests of some of the Pariah Gods present (The Only Old One, perhaps?). Certainly there were obvious symbols of the PGs being held up. Is there any information on this, or on what was going on?


Thank you, and welcome aboard!

It's the 'circle and dot' emblem of The One Other, if I recall. They do participate in certain ancient rituals - they figure in the Kolumeljalim, the Choosing of the Seal Emperor. The Goddess of the Pale Bone usually has a bone of some sort with little leaping and dancing figures, and you don't see it very often. The One Who Is has no symbol that I know of.

Now you've gotten me curious - I'll have to go back and look! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Opaopajr on April 16, 2016, 01:54:06 AM
Please, by mid-1990s WoD was old hat, everyone already threw their grittier than thou PvP into the ring (oh, such a contrast from the zany PvP of Paranoia), and arcade video game etiquette already had well established "don't exploit the known bullshit version glitches to shit on everyone else's fun, or else we reset the cabinet and threaten to knock your teeth in."

And by mid-1990s I just finished being a snot-nosed angsty teenager in the age of grunge self-indulgence -- and still my peers and I knew better.

Sorry, no pass. Not being a spiteful, vindictive asshole, inside and outside the game, was already well established protocol by the 1990s. Bad, spineless GMing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 16, 2016, 02:01:31 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;892091
You know what?  I have to unsay the entire message above.

You see, I have been guilty of "anachronistic thinking."  I am evaluating Phil's reffing of TWENTY YEARS AGO by the standards of today.

Let me put it in perspective for you.  I played in Tekumel from 1974 until 1985.  1985 is ELEVEN YEARS AFTER THE FIRST PUBLICATION OF D&D.

The events with Kathy that Chirine described are "mid 1990s."  That's 20 YEARS AGO.  And twenty years after D&D first appeared.

Gaming was still in its adolescence, if not infancy.  Most of the terms we've been bandying about simply didn't exist as ideas.  Shit on toast almighty, this is when "Internet' meant using a dialup modem to access America Onlline.

Phil was reffing by the standard wisdom of the day:  the referee is a neutral arbiter, and the players can do what the players want.  If that results in player vs player conflict, it is up to the referee to be neutral.  If some of the players don't like it, it is for the players to sort out among themselves.

Hell, it's only the last five years or so that I've seen the notion of "Be as explicit as possible about expectations" get any traction.  It's twenty years after these events, and people are STILL trying to figure out how it all works.

We are simply being very unfair, and indulging in sloppy thinking.


Um, I see your point, and I do agree with you. However, you are also correct in your first post on this, and I think you're right in both posts. I put in bold italics your comment because it's very, very true; you and I both GM'd and refereed games the exact same way as Phil did.

In this case, it blew up on Phil very badly, just as Lady Anka'a and her antics blew up on me. However, and here's where your comments above are so very much on the mark, I had an extra twenty years of gaming under my belt when the crisis hit. If I had not had that additional time in the barrel, I don't think I would have handled my situation any better then Phil had had to handle his - I submit that you are right; Phil simply didn't have the tools that we have now to deal with the situation, in game, and certainly the out-of-game real world issues that he was facing at the time played a very large and very negative part in what happened.

And, I will also be clear about this, I also had the advantage of being able to read Phil's letters to his old friend that he'd written at the time that this all went down. The letters span the time from early 1974 to late in 2005 or so, and were never meant to be seen or read by any of us. The sense of isolation, despair, and unhappiness at the way things went in the early 1990s in both his personal, professional, and gaming life is heartbreaking.

To be blunt, if I hadn't had that posthumous guidance from Phil, my situation would have been much worse, and just as bad as what he faced. Because of his letters, I knew when to pull the plug on both the Gary Con trip and the game group.

Thank you, Phil, where ever you are...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 16, 2016, 02:13:18 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;892107
I dunno, was "'PvP' sexual harassment, sexual abuse, torture, and rape" ok in 1980?  I'm not sure exactly what Chirine was talking about when he said The continuing and graphic in-game 'PvP' sexual harassment, sexual abuse, torture, and rape that she had had to put up with as Vrisa.  I don't know if that meant all that was something the player witnessed the party due to others or was some of that an ongoing attack on Vrisa?

In any case, being drugged and sold as a slave isn't the worst thing you can do to a PC by far, but what else was involved there?

This has nothing to do with "setting player expectations" and all the new-fangled panty-bunching for the fainting couch crowd, this is Rule Zero of all gaming - "Don't use the game as an excuse to be a dick".

This doesn't sound like friends fucking eachother over gleefully while playing Diplomacy or Paranoia, or even the Thief deciding he needs a little kicker for all the poison traps he faces.  This sounds Real Life Personal.

You were right the first time.  Phil, being human, fucked up royally.  If those types of players were coming to dominate his groups, then more of his friends needed to call him out on that bullshit back then.

I don't know the situation, so forgive me for pulling something out of my ass, but this sounds a little bit like a really popular famous figure attracting a group of sycophants and starting to believe their bullshit.


It was as bad as it sounds; I got it from both Kathy and her various tormentors.

It was all about the politics around the table, and getting rid of Kathy to advance the career of one of the people who came in in the 1990s with these folks.

As I think I said, the single biggest roadblock that Tekumel ever faced was the politics around the table. Phil was never comfortable with dealing with 'external' publishers; he ran afoul of the locals' tendency for feuds with the 'internal' ones.

I personally did not like those days; my single biggest regret in my long and very busy life is that I agreed to be hired by Dave Arneson to be the Tekumel person at AGI. If I have known what was going to happen in the coming decades, I would have stayed well away from the commercial side of the house.

Now, it's been said by a number of people that if I hadn't spent the last thirty-some years of my life promoting Tekumel, it would have been dead and forgotten a long time ago. Maybe; I don't know, as I'm too close to the subject.

As I'm writing "To Serve The Petal Throne", I am making a very up-front decision to skirt all these issues; I want people to get to know the Phil Barker that we enjoyed playing with, and the wonderful times we had with him. I could certainly write a book about all the things that went wrong and/or badly, but I'll leave that for someone else to pursue.
Title: Visitors - a general reply...
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 16, 2016, 02:24:30 AM
First off, I am doing a sort of general reply to everyone on this subject; I want to be as clear as possible on this for everyone.

I've talked to The Missus about this, and we have no problems with this. There is precedent; about four years ago, we had an 'open-house' weekend and had some fourteen guests in for three days. About half were from out of town, and some from quite far afield. I thought it was great fun; we had miniatures games, RPGs, and even a guest RPG GM. Everyone said that they really enjoyed the chance to come and game, and see all the stuff I've accumulated over the years.

If people wanted to do something like this, talk to each other. I have an absurd number of vacation hours 'in the bank', so I would take a full week off around the (I presume) weekend that everyone agreed on. This would give everyone as much 'time on target' as possible, which I think is the idea. Both the game room and the game lounge would be open, and my workshop as well. (Two toilets, too; we try to be prepared.)

I would be at your disposal for the entire time, and we'd have to discuss what people wanted to do and see. I would need a month's notice of the actual date, if not a wee bit more, so I can file the vacation request, but that's about it. (Oh, and no smoking in the house, due to The Missus' asthma.) We can also see about a Skype connection, too; we';; need to work on that...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Opaopajr on April 16, 2016, 05:05:54 AM
That's an extraordinarily generous offer and makes me regret the distance we live apart. I hope genuinely kind and appreciative people take you up on your offer.
:)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Rincewind1 on April 16, 2016, 05:15:33 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;892128

As I'm writing "To Serve The Petal Throne", I am making a very up-front decision to skirt all these issues; I want people to get to know the Phil Barker that we enjoyed playing with, and the wonderful times we had with him. I could certainly write a book about all the things that went wrong and/or badly, but I'll leave that for someone else to pursue.


You shouldn't. Good comes with the bad, bad comes with the good. It's important for people to know that the gaming legends weren't just merry grognards with vikings hats, and everyone always played the best, the lost golden pioneer days of gaming, but that they also had issues and fuck ups at the table all too reminiscent to us.

Reading this thread, I enjoyed both the descriptions of great moments in gaming, as well as taking a look at the absurd, but all too human, screw ups.

And sorry, but I agree with Opa on the issue of GMing. 20 years old is past adolescence. If this happened in first 3 - 4 years, it'd be understandable.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on April 16, 2016, 06:26:32 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;892125
Thank you, and welcome aboard!

It's the 'circle and dot' emblem of The One Other, if I recall. They do participate in certain ancient rituals - they figure in the Kolumeljalim, the Choosing of the Seal Emperor. The Goddess of the Pale Bone usually has a bone of some sort with little leaping and dancing figures, and you don't see it very often. The One Who Is has no symbol that I know of.

Now you've gotten me curious - I'll have to go back and look! :)


Thank you too!

I think you are right it is The One Other. The thing that confuses me is that I thought these guys were completely "deity non grata", so how do they participate in the rituals without being instantly whacked by the OAL or other temples? Or are they "stand-in" representatives there to represent the bad guys and show how they were defeated etc(*)? I'm guessing that it's something to do with one of the secrets of Tekumel? Maybe there is no definite answer. I'll have a look and see if I can find the reference.

(*) The parallel here would be in a Gloranthan Heroquest, if you know  Glorantha, where members of cults re-enact the stories of their god, and others stand in as the opposition in the story, sometimes willingly, sometimes not.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on April 16, 2016, 07:20:28 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;892125
Thank you, and welcome aboard!

It's the 'circle and dot' emblem of The One Other, if I recall. They do participate in certain ancient rituals - they figure in the Kolumeljalim, the Choosing of the Seal Emperor. The Goddess of the Pale Bone usually has a bone of some sort with little leaping and dancing figures, and you don't see it very often. The One Who Is has no symbol that I know of.

Now you've gotten me curious - I'll have to go back and look! :)


Ok, found it, it's in Part 2/Vol 1 Coming of Age in Tekumel, section B13 "Peek-a-boo, I see you!", p71, left column near the bottom, concerning the interment of Hirkane Tlakotani:

"At the mouth of a semi circular passage more priests await. These are attired in vestments of silver brocade, and upon the breast of each is a black circle with a central round dot that flickers and changes colours as you look at it. Who these people are is a mystery to you. Lord Hnalla's delegation recites words in unison in an unknown tongue, and the strange priests silently retreat into their corridor."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on April 16, 2016, 08:19:38 AM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));892152
These are attired in vestments of silver brocade, and upon the breast of each is a black circle with a central round dot


So, the One Other is Dr. Manhattan? I wondered where he went after he left Earth. Also helps explain why he helped in the fight against Ksarul (and my fascination with the One Other). :D

Sort of on the subject, I recall on one of the city maps (don't remember which one and don't have my stuff at hand) that there us a Temple of the One Other standing near the normal temples but is listed as Sealed. Why would it be sealed instead of leveled/destroyed?

Found it. Bethorm, map of Katalal, location 98
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on April 16, 2016, 08:39:27 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;892155
So, the One Other is Dr. Manhatten? I wondered where he went after he left Earth. Also helps explain why he helped in the fight against Ksarul (and my fascination with the One Other). :D

Sort of on the subject, I recall on one of the city maps (don't remember which one and don't have my stuff at hand) that there us a Temple of the One Other standing near the normal temples but is listed as Sealed. Why would it be sealed instead of leveled/destroyed?


Well the dot and circle is a pretty old symbol (apparently it's called a "circumpunct"). Dr Manhattan has a hydrogen atom on his forehead, so he's got an extra dot...

It did occur to me (probably irrelevantly) that the symbol could be a reference to the Tubeways - it's a bit like looking down a long tunnel, with either a light at the end, or an oncoming vehicle(?).

Interesting point about the Sealed temple.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 16, 2016, 10:40:20 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;892091
You know what?  I have to unsay the entire message above.

You see, I have been guilty of "anachronistic thinking."  I am evaluating Phil's reffing of TWENTY YEARS AGO by the standards of today.

Let me put it in perspective for you.  I played in Tekumel from 1974 until 1985.  1985 is ELEVEN YEARS AFTER THE FIRST PUBLICATION OF D&D.

The events with Kathy that Chirine described are "mid 1990s."  That's 20 YEARS AGO.  And twenty years after D&D first appeared.

Gaming was still in its adolescence, if not infancy.  Most of the terms we've been bandying about simply didn't exist as ideas.  Shit on toast almighty, this is when "Internet' meant using a dialup modem to access America Onlline.

Phil was reffing by the standard wisdom of the day:  the referee is a neutral arbiter, and the players can do what the players want.  If that results in player vs player conflict, it is up to the referee to be neutral.  If some of the players don't like it, it is for the players to sort out among themselves.

Hell, it's only the last five years or so that I've seen the notion of "Be as explicit as possible about expectations" get any traction.  It's twenty years after these events, and people are STILL trying to figure out how it all works.

We are simply being very unfair, and indulging in sloppy thinking.

Gronan, I haven't played or refereed RPGs for 20 years yet:).

But I agree, the Referee's job is to be a neutral arbiter in game. That's...not even up for discussion, as far as I'm concerned. In fact, that's why I switched to using the word "Referee".

What is very easy to lose sight of, however, is that the Referee isn't supposed to be always neutral when it comes to out of game actions. Instead, Referee needs to help everyone have fun - while kicking the crap out of their characters for in-game mistakes, which admittedly can be a thin red line to follow...:D
And this means taking sides when someone is getting (undeservedly) dogpiled - after waiting to see whether the player can deal with it himself or herself. Referee intervention is best used sparingly, after all. (Now, if he or she is deservedly dogpiled, the Referee best stay neutral, or exercise only damage control if things go too far - but that wasn't the case here).

So, in short, MAR Barker did "drop the ball", but it happened in a situation where it's easy to drop the ball because of contradictory requirements.
Was the right way "common wisdom" by then? Can't say, I started playing in 1999 AD, years after those events had taken place. The thing above is what a friend explained to me circa 2000 AD. (He also warned me I am going to fail it occasionally and that I shouldn't kick myself too much over it). Been following that advice since then.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;892129
We can also see about a Skype connection, too; we';; need to work on that...

Sigh.
It sounds more and more tempting, and I'm a non-smoker, but I doubt I could spare the money this year. I'll take you up on the Skype offer, though, if you don't mind;).

Quote from: Big Andy;892155
So, the One Other is Dr. Manhattan? I wondered where he went after he left Earth. Also helps explain why he helped in the fight against Ksarul (and my fascination with the One Other). :D

OK, after much thinking...I suspect that's not a worse idea than any other:D!

Quote
Sort of on the subject, I recall on one of the city maps (don't remember which one and don't have my stuff at hand) that there us a Temple of the One Other standing near the normal temples but is listed as Sealed. Why would it be sealed instead of leveled/destroyed?

Found it. Bethorm, map of Katalal, location 98

You sure you want to see what could crawl out of that temple if we start breaking its walls,  noble lord? Of course, you and your regiment would stay nearby and ensure the safety of the workers, I presume:p? And you'll conduct a ritual to inform the One Other and his demons that it's your decision and your responsibility, so they wouldn't torment the workers;)?

(Or, as Chirine might say, it's time to call in the adventurers!)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 16, 2016, 11:34:21 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;892129
First off, I am doing a sort of general reply to everyone on this subject; I want to be as clear as possible on this for everyone.

I've talked to The Missus about this, and we have no problems with this. There is precedent; about four years ago, we had an 'open-house' weekend and had some fourteen guests in for three days. About half were from out of town, and some from quite far afield. I thought it was great fun; we had miniatures games, RPGs, and even a guest RPG GM. Everyone said that they really enjoyed the chance to come and game, and see all the stuff I've accumulated over the years.

If people wanted to do something like this, talk to each other. I have an absurd number of vacation hours 'in the bank', so I would take a full week off around the (I presume) weekend that everyone agreed on. This would give everyone as much 'time on target' as possible, which I think is the idea. Both the game room and the game lounge would be open, and my workshop as well. (Two toilets, too; we try to be prepared.)

I would be at your disposal for the entire time, and we'd have to discuss what people wanted to do and see. I would need a month's notice of the actual date, if not a wee bit more, so I can file the vacation request, but that's about it. (Oh, and no smoking in the house, due to The Missus' asthma.) We can also see about a Skype connection, too; we';; need to work on that...


A thousand thanks Great Lord!!! I would be an honor and great pleasure!!! May your generosity reflect upon you and yours a thousand times over!!! Your love of Tekumel truely shows through.

I'm sure one day, I will try to make the trek up north. Of course Great Lord, I will make a request well in advance. Be well.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 16, 2016, 12:49:24 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;892163


So, in short, MAR Barker did "drop the ball", but it happened in a situation where it's easy to drop the ball because of contradictory requirements.
Was the right way "common wisdom" by then?


Good question.

The real pivot on this (and Chirine will back me, I believe) is that in the mid 80s after the D&D bubble popped and AGI ground to a halt, Phil pretty much retreated to his basement and stopped paying attention to what "the rest of the gaming world" was doing.

Actually, that's been very common for a LOT of us "first generation"; having re-established contact with Dave Wesley, Mike Carr, Tim Kask, Jim Ward, et al over the last few years at GaryCon, a hell of a lot of us old grognards just retired to our country villas in the mid to late 80s and said 'arseholes to the lot of 'em.'  I'm not the only one who pretty much dropped out from 1985 to 2005 or so.

Hell, I go to GaryCon because I can play the games I used to play with the people I used to play with.  Yes, I have played some newer stuff, but I just don't like it as much.

Also, all four of the events I played in were historical (counting Brauntstein.)  I reffed one D&D session, ran one Tekumel miniatures battle to celebrate Dave Sutherland, and ran a CHAINMAIL battle.  I played TRACTICS, Don't Give Up The Ship, Braunstein, and Cavaliers and Roundheads.

I can see why Chirine likes the ECW so much. :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 16, 2016, 12:55:47 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;892128


As I think I said, the single biggest roadblock that Tekumel ever faced was the politics around the table. Phil was never comfortable with dealing with 'external' publishers; he ran afoul of the locals' tendency for feuds with the 'internal' ones.


I was never 100% sure just what it was Phil wanted, and truthfully, I'm starting to think he was never 100% sure either.

Also, and forgive me if I've mentioned this before, but in the early 80s the British Phil Barker did a US and Canada tour.  After gaming at the Little Tin Soldier Shop in Minneapolis he went to Winnipeg, where he said to my Canadian gamer/SCA friends "Those people in Minneapolis would rather argue than play the game."

It has always been a splintered and fractious community.  Imperium Publishing, anybody?


Quote from: chirine ba kal;892128
I personally did not like those days; my single biggest regret in my long and very busy life is that I agreed to be hired by Dave Arneson to be the Tekumel person at AGI. If I have known what was going to happen in the coming decades, I would have stayed well away from the commercial side of the house.


I cannot think of an adequate way to express my agreement with this.  I regret that I didn't know then what I know about business, about pricing, about gaming, and about the "gaming industry."  Adventure Games really WAS born under an ill-favored star; it was the worst possible time to start a game company... just months before the D&D bubble popped.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 16, 2016, 12:57:48 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;892163

You sure you want to see what could crawl out of that temple if we start breaking its walls,  noble lord? Of course, you and your regiment would stay nearby and ensure the safety of the workers, I presume:p? And you'll conduct a ritual to inform the One Other and his demons that it's your decision and your responsibility, so they wouldn't torment the workers;)?



Ummm, I think the Emperor just ordered my legion to march to Kashi, gotta go...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 16, 2016, 01:00:02 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;892128


As I'm writing "To Serve The Petal Throne", I am making a very up-front decision to skirt all these issues; I want people to get to know the Phil Barker that we enjoyed playing with, and the wonderful times we had with him. I could certainly write a book about all the things that went wrong and/or badly, but I'll leave that for someone else to pursue.


I heartily support you in this.  Much like my memories of the early years of D&D, I see no reason to dwell on the unpleasant.  Shakespeare may have said "the evil that men do lives on, the good is oft interred with their bones," but there's no reason we have to participate in that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 16, 2016, 01:01:30 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr;892126
Please, by mid-1990s WoD was old hat, everyone already threw their grittier than thou PvP into the ring (oh, such a contrast from the zany PvP of Paranoia), and arcade video game etiquette already had well established "don't exploit the known bullshit version glitches to shit on everyone else's fun, or else we reset the cabinet and threaten to knock your teeth in."


And I heard of none of those things until 10 to 15 years later.  As I said, many of us Great Old Ones simply disconnected from the "gaming community" for years.  But I think that's probably enough digression.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Opaopajr on April 16, 2016, 01:10:40 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;892182
And I heard of none of those things until 10 to 15 years later.  As I said, many of us Great Old Ones simply disconnected from the "gaming community" for years.  But I think that's probably enough digression.


Hmm... I watched what good practice from referees were even during all those childhood sports I was forcibly shlepped to. Outside collusion, coordionated hazing and abuse, and obscene blowouts were considered bad form. And the referee not only did, but was expected to, go against bad behavior, even if it came from psychotic Little League parents.

That didn't stop vindictive assholes from being themselves. But it often dragged in other authorities before they could get away with being the big shits they are. Non-confrontationalism is as bad as capitulation; when you're the GM (referee) you gotta step up to the plate and make assholes stand back down.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on April 16, 2016, 01:53:30 PM
To diverge this discussion ...
It is practical to try to run a game in the style of days gone by if the players didn't play in those times?

Are there just too many "modern" expectations to overcome?
Is a 'hostile world" no longer acceptable to modern players?
Do the player characters always have to be given a "pass" when they don't assume things will go against them? The assumption being...
"We are the Heroes. Of course we will Win in the End."
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 16, 2016, 02:04:08 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;892198
To diverge this discussion ...
It is practical to try to run a game in the style of days gone by if the players didn't play in those times?

Are there just too many "modern" expectations to overcome?
Is a 'hostile world" no longer acceptable to modern players?
Do the player characters always have to be given a "pass" when they don't assume things will go against them? The assumption being...
"We are the Heroes. Of course we will Win in the End."
=


MMmmmmmaybe....

Paul Hughes in his "Blog of Holding" says that my OD&D New York game was a "Hard Mode" game.

http://blogofholding.com/?p=7002

If you read his whole series on that game, I tried to play pretty much "by the book."  Interestingly, he says the game was "hard mode" but I felt it was more like "medium."

The key to success is careful management of expectations.  I'm still working on a really good survey/quiz for this sort of thing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 16, 2016, 03:04:34 PM
I am going to throw in my 2 Qirgals worth. I get the feeling that this was a conscious decision by Phil to allow this behaviour because he felt that the “integrity” of the game milieu was, more important than the gaming milieu.  Because, as I believe Chirine has said in earlier posts, gaming on Tékumel was primarily about helping to develop the world, and ultimately develop plot lines for Phil’s novels. Did unscrupulous individuals manipulate the situation? Probably. Should Phil have stepped in? Most certainly.
Even though I haven’t been gaming as long as the Glorious General or Lord Chirine, I have been gaming for about 36 years. I first “discovered” D&D in 1980-81, and started my campaign in 1982-83. As I mentioned in an earlier post I didn’t allow this type of PvP behaviour almost right from the get go. Even as a “freshman” in High School it quickly became evident to me that this type of game play could only lead to bad feelings or open animosity. I think, from what the Glorious General and Chirine have said, this type of mind set seems to have been (still is?) especially prevalent in the Minneapolis area. I can say with certainty that amongst my gaming group, and the circles of other gamers that we knew back in the early 80’s, this style of gaming quickly disappeared. Usually after a couple of games the DM’s who allowed or encouraged this type of game would find their groups getting smaller and smaller as players gravitated towards groups where this behaviour was not present. Now don’t get me wrong, there have been numerous cases over the years in my games when characters were pitted against each other. This however, was due to specific in-game reasons, as a means of developing or advancing the plot, not because of some outside vendetta. Furthermore, I made sure that it stayed at the level of rivalry, and not antagonism. Fortunately, the guys liked this style of play over the "constantly having to watch your back" style. Besides, as one of my veteran players said last night when I mentioned what happened to Vrisa: “We have enough to worry about with the monsters, and your NPC’s.  Who needs the other bullshit thrown in?”  
Although being a totally neutral arbiter is of paramount importance when DMing you sometimes have to be the dictator as well. As I said, just my 2 Qirgals worth.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 16, 2016, 03:05:44 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;892198
To diverge this discussion ...
It is practical to try to run a game in the style of days gone by if the players didn't play in those times?

IMO, yes. I wasn't even born at the time, nor any of my players.

Quote
Are there just too many "modern" expectations to overcome?

Depends on the player. I find the "modern" expectations unintuitive.

Quote
Is a 'hostile world" no longer acceptable to modern players?

Probably it is to some. Probably it was to some others in the past, too.
Screw that. Make it clear what kind of game you're running, and make it clear that anyone who doesn't want to play, doesn't need to join.

Quote
Do the player characters always have to be given a "pass" when they don't assume things will go against them? The assumption being...
"We are the Heroes. Of course we will Win in the End."

...no "dirty hippy indie narrativist game" assumes this, to my knowledge. Why would you assume it in a regular RPG?
If that's the assumption, why even have rules for success and failure? Just roll about success, success with complication and success with a bonus. You can do that with a d6,  1 and 6 being complication and bonus, respectively. Or use 1-3 complication, 18-20 gives you a bonus on top of [STRIKE]your fries[/STRIKE] success!

Sweet Tits of Dlamelish, I sound like a grognard:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 16, 2016, 03:16:30 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;892198
To diverge this discussion ...
It is practical to try to run a game in the style of days gone by if the players didn't play in those times?

Are there just too many "modern" expectations to overcome?
Is a 'hostile world" no longer acceptable to modern players?
Do the player characters always have to be given a "pass" when they don't assume things will go against them? The assumption being...
"We are the Heroes. Of course we will Win in the End."
=


I hope that this is never the case. All I can say is that anyone who assumes they "will Win in the End", because they are the heroes, will be rolling up a lot characters in on one of my games. I never go out of my way to "get" the players. Now I have been known to  fudge a roll once in a Blue Moon in favour of the characters,  but man they better be sharp the other 99.9% of the time. For me being a hero is not something that someone "just is", it's something that someone becomes. Getting there aint easy.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 16, 2016, 03:53:47 PM
Another thing to consider is that Dave Wesley, Dave Arneson, Gary Gygax, Phil Barker, and many of us original players, were wargamers first.

Wargames ARE PVP.  That's what they ARE.  And a lot of those expectations carried through.  Not that they always should have, but they did.  Wargame referees absolutely do not intervene except in questions of rules interpretation.

"The past is a different place."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 16, 2016, 04:28:57 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;892218
Wargame referees absolutely do not intervene except in questions of rules interpretation.
True. However unlike wargame referees, DMs/GMs both create and control the vast majority of the enemy forces arrayed against the PCs. The role of DM/GM requires a different type of fairness than the role of a simple wargame referee.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 16, 2016, 04:36:36 PM
Quote from: Bren;892224
True. However unlike wargame referees, DMs/GMs both create and control the vast majority of the enemy forces arrayed against the PCs. The role of DM/GM requires a different type of fairness than the role of a simple wargame referee.


Yeah, and it took quite some time for some people to figure that out, and some never did.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Opaopajr on April 16, 2016, 07:21:40 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;892218
Another thing to consider is that Dave Wesley, Dave Arneson, Gary Gygax, Phil Barker, and many of us original players, were wargamers first.

Wargames ARE PVP.  That's what they ARE.  And a lot of those expectations carried through.  Not that they always should have, but they did.  Wargame referees absolutely do not intervene except in questions of rules interpretation.

"The past is a different place."


Really? The 40k, WarmaHordes, historical, et al wargame tournaments I sa5 at still had some decorum rules about sportsmanship and out of game collusion/cheating. How much of a free for all melee was wargaming back then?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 16, 2016, 07:54:38 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr;892146
That's an extraordinarily generous offer and makes me regret the distance we live apart. I hope genuinely kind and appreciative people take you up on your offer.
:)


You're welcome! Do feel free to drop by, if you ever make it up this way. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 16, 2016, 07:59:16 PM
Quote from: Rincewind1;892148
You shouldn't. Good comes with the bad, bad comes with the good. It's important for people to know that the gaming legends weren't just merry grognards with vikings hats, and everyone always played the best, the lost golden pioneer days of gaming, but that they also had issues and fuck ups at the table all too reminiscent to us.

Reading this thread, I enjoyed both the descriptions of great moments in gaming, as well as taking a look at the absurd, but all too human, screw ups.

And sorry, but I agree with Opa on the issue of GMing. 20 years old is past adolescence. If this happened in first 3 - 4 years, it'd be understandable.


Thanks for your comments! I'm trying to tell our story from our perspective as our characters - we played these people for so long, they felt like our alter egos.

I'll let somebody else do the 'Secret History'; I lived those events, and I would intensely prefer not to have to live through them again. I was interviewed a while back by one of the documentary filmmakers who are doing films on the early days of D&D and gaming; he was genuinely astonished that nobody's bothered to wander through my brain and my archives. Me, I thought that it was a little traumatic; I had a high pressure event during the shoot.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 16, 2016, 08:02:46 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));892152
Ok, found it, it's in Part 2/Vol 1 Coming of Age in Tekumel, section B13 "Peek-a-boo, I see you!", p71, left column near the bottom, concerning the interment of Hirkane Tlakotani:

"At the mouth of a semi circular passage more priests await. These are attired in vestments of silver brocade, and upon the breast of each is a black circle with a central round dot that flickers and changes colours as you look at it. Who these people are is a mystery to you. Lord Hnalla's delegation recites words in unison in an unknown tongue, and the strange priests silently retreat into their corridor."


And there you are; there are a lot of mysteries floating around, especially around the Petal Throne. Listening to the tape, I was flabberghasted to hear that the clerics of The One Other are part of the rituals surrounding the enthronement. Phil can still surprise, even when you think you know 'for sure'...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 16, 2016, 08:04:32 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;892155
So, the One Other is Dr. Manhattan? I wondered where he went after he left Earth. Also helps explain why he helped in the fight against Ksarul (and my fascination with the One Other). :D

Sort of on the subject, I recall on one of the city maps (don't remember which one and don't have my stuff at hand) that there us a Temple of the One Other standing near the normal temples but is listed as Sealed. Why would it be sealed instead of leveled/destroyed?

Found it. Bethorm, map of Katalal, location 98


Good question; I suspect that the Great Concordat is in play here. It's like the difference between the Gods In Lankhmar, and the Gods Of Lankhmar...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 16, 2016, 08:06:37 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));892156
Well the dot and circle is a pretty old symbol (apparently it's called a "circumpunct"). Dr Manhattan has a hydrogen atom on his forehead, so he's got an extra dot...

It did occur to me (probably irrelevantly) that the symbol could be a reference to the Tubeways - it's a bit like looking down a long tunnel, with either a light at the end, or an oncoming vehicle(?).

Interesting point about the Sealed temple.


Funny you should mention that; When we first encountered The One Other in person, the being was down a long, dark, tunnel; we simply spoke up, not wanting to see what was at the other end of the tunnel.

A Target store, maybe? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 16, 2016, 08:07:41 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;892172
A thousand thanks Great Lord!!! I would be an honor and great pleasure!!! May your generosity reflect upon you and yours a thousand times over!!! Your love of Tekumel truely shows through.

I'm sure one day, I will try to make the trek up north. Of course Great Lord, I will make a request well in advance. Be well.

H:0)


You're very welcome. We'll be here... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 16, 2016, 08:14:18 PM
From Gronan of Simmerya:

The real pivot on this (and Chirine will back me, I believe) is that in the mid 80s after the D&D bubble popped and AGI ground to a halt, Phil pretty much retreated to his basement and stopped paying attention to what "the rest of the gaming world" was doing.

Yep. He became pretty isolated, even from the locals. It's why I would up doing my two campaigns; there was enough demand for Tekumel gaming here in the Twin Cities to support the two large (8 to 12 people) groups that I ran. About the only 'outside contact' Phil really had was with his friends in the Society of Ancients; he kept up a pretty lively conversation with them.

Actually, that's been very common for a LOT of us "first generation"; having re-established contact with Dave Wesley, Mike Carr, Tim Kask, Jim Ward, et al over the last few years at GaryCon, a hell of a lot of us old grognards just retired to our country villas in the mid to late 80s and said 'arseholes to the lot of 'em.'  I'm not the only one who pretty much dropped out from 1985 to 2005 or so.

Very true.

Hell, I go to GaryCon because I can play the games I used to play with the people I used to play with.  Yes, I have played some newer stuff, but I just don't like it as much.

Agreed. It seems to be lacking something for me, as well. No idea why.

Also, all four of the events I played in were historical (counting Brauntstein.)  I reffed one D&D session, ran one Tekumel miniatures battle to celebrate Dave Sutherland, and ran a CHAINMAIL battle.  I played TRACTICS, Don't Give Up The Ship, Braunstein, and Cavaliers and Roundheads.

I can see why Chirine likes the ECW so much. :D


If one is gaming with experts in the period, and not with experts in the rules, you can get a really fun time - the historical periods are full of the kind of thing that Dave and Gary tapped into with their Greyhawk and Blackmoor.

Ah, the great agony when the cry was heard over the game table:

"THE PUCKLE GUN IS JAMMED!!!"

:)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 16, 2016, 08:21:15 PM
From Gronan of Simmerya:I was never 100% sure just what it was Phil wanted, and truthfully, I'm starting to think he was never 100% sure either.

I'd agree with that. It made our lives at AGI difficult. Personally, I think if he'd stayed with the novels, and stayed out of RPGs, he'd have been a lot happier.

Also, and forgive me if I've mentioned this before, but in the early 80s the British Phil Barker did a US and Canada tour.  After gaming at the Little Tin Soldier Shop in Minneapolis he went to Winnipeg, where he said to my Canadian gamer/SCA friends "Those people in Minneapolis would rather argue than play the game."

It was amazing to watch the culture shock, on both sides. UK Phil thought that the idea was to push lead, and the locals thought he'd written his rules so they could argue over them.

It has always been a splintered and fractious community.  Imperium Publishing, anybody?

And then some. The Twin Cities are littered with the corpses of Bright Ideas In Gaming that have gone horribly wrong.

I cannot think of an adequate way to express my agreement with this.  I regret that I didn't know then what I know about business, about pricing, about gaming, and about the "gaming industry."  Adventure Games really WAS born under an ill-favored star; it was the worst possible time to start a game company... just months before the D&D bubble popped.

The looks on their faces the day the TSR royalty check didn't come told that story all too well. I had followed Gordy's advice: Rule #3 Of Being A Successful Author - "Don't quit your day job." Which may be why I wound up doing better then most of the AGI crowd...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 16, 2016, 08:24:41 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;892180
Ummm, I think the Emperor just ordered my legion to march to Kashi, gotta go...


The Nyemesel Islands are lovely, this time of year. Nice sandy beaches, warm breezes, cool drinks, and hardly any Akho around. Harchar's at the dock, and can offer a nice package deal for you, Nlel, and the troops.

Whoops! Look at the time! Gotta go! (Exits Katalal in a hurry, Stage Right...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 16, 2016, 08:28:07 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;892181
I heartily support you in this.  Much like my memories of the early years of D&D, I see no reason to dwell on the unpleasant.  Shakespeare may have said "the evil that men do lives on, the good is oft interred with their bones," but there's no reason we have to participate in that.


Agreed. I've got over 123,000 words done, another 177, 000 to go, and I've barely scratched the surface. And I've got lots of other stuff on tap; lovely day here, with +77F and a nice breeze, and I got to cut stock for several projects - including my greatest and very bestest game, which will surpass anything I have ever done. Period.

I love my table saw. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 16, 2016, 08:31:04 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;892198
To diverge this discussion ...
It is practical to try to run a game in the style of days gone by if the players didn't play in those times?

Are there just too many "modern" expectations to overcome?
Is a 'hostile world" no longer acceptable to modern players?
Do the player characters always have to be given a "pass" when they don't assume things will go against them? The assumption being...
"We are the Heroes. Of course we will Win in the End."
=


I think it is; I still run my games the way I did year ago, jjst with better technology. When people play in them, they love the play style - because it's like nothing that they've ever seen before. Never had to deal with any of the things you mentioned, either; I think I've been lucky.

Getting people to show up on time for games, though... :mad:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 16, 2016, 08:33:01 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;892218
Another thing to consider is that Dave Wesley, Dave Arneson, Gary Gygax, Phil Barker, and many of us original players, were wargamers first.

Wargames ARE PVP.  That's what they ARE.  And a lot of those expectations carried through.  Not that they always should have, but they did.  Wargame referees absolutely do not intervene except in questions of rules interpretation.

"The past is a different place."


It is - or at least, it was - a very different style of PvP then what we saw. At least it was in our crowd; we may have been spoiled.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 16, 2016, 08:35:37 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;892258
I think it is; I still run my games the way I did year ago, jjst with better technology. When people play in them, they love the play style - because it's like nothing that they've ever seen before. Never had to deal with any of the things you mentioned, either; I think I've been lucky.


I've never had anything but positive feedback either.  And one young man who grew up on D&D 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder has tossed it over and bought the reprint PTFs of original D&D after playing in my game.  As he put it, "I like the way that if I want to sneak up behind somebody and knock them out, I just say that, you roll dice, it either happens or it doesn't, and we get on with the damn game."  Direct quote.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;892258
Getting people to show up on time for games, though... :mad:


Gamers seem particularly sloppy about that in general as a community.  My model railroad friends don't tolerate that; if the trains start running at 7:30 PM they start running at 7:30 PM.  If you arrive late you may not get a train at all, and if you arrive late too many times without advance notice you will likely get taken off the invitation list.

As one modeler says, "The way to start on time is to start on time."
Title: A very good day, indeed!
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 16, 2016, 08:36:55 PM
The weather here is fine, and I got out into the game supplies shed in the back yard for the first time, this year. Cleaned out a bunch of stuff, got some projects restarted, and visited some old friends in their storage tubs. It's where I store dreams... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on April 16, 2016, 09:49:41 PM
my gaming period was 1978-1984. Later than some, earlier than most. And I was a teenaged boy playing in what, despite the participation of some girls, was basically teenaged boy culture. We were all wargamers previously, and yeah it was pretty competitive. After the first 3 years or so we were playing the domain game, so a campaign in the Tony Bath sense. The DM was no longer even the antagonist really, we were fighting each other (through proxy allies and armies, not actually swinging swords at each other) and he just managed the chaos. Sure, we could do some brutal stuff, "all in good fun" of course. But I am pretty confident that using the "game" to play out overt, ongoing sexual aggression, if it had ever happened (which it didn't) would have been uncomfortable for everyone. First awkward, second uncool, third go away you are creeping everyone out. Even if the sexual aggression were directed against NPCs it would be awkward. But directed against the girl (or boy) sitting next to you at the table? I honestly cannot imagine that. Not even in that ancient time, not even at our immature age. Never mind the times or the age of the participants, something went very very wrong there in the TNG. Gronan, I think your first gut reaction was the right one.


Quote from: chirine ba kal;891736
May I commend to you this excellent blog, and an even more excellent work by the author:

http://dualdais.blogspot.com/ (http://dualdais.blogspot.com/)


Thanks for the shout-out!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 16, 2016, 10:10:18 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;892264

Thanks for the shout-out!


You're very welcome! What you're doing is exactly the kind of thing we loved, and Phil would have adopted for his own campaign. Great stuff, and it took me back nearly forty years... :)

By the way, saw the old movie "Helen of Troy" today, and there was a galley very much like one of yours - wonderful to see, and I thought of you instantly! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on April 16, 2016, 11:19:39 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;892268
You're very welcome! What you're doing is exactly the kind of thing we loved, and Phil would have adopted for his own campaign. Great stuff, and it took me back nearly forty years... :)

By the way, saw the old movie "Helen of Troy" today, and there was a galley very much like one of yours - wonderful to see, and I thought of you instantly! :)


The 1956 version? I don't remember it, but I will definitely keep an eye out for it.... I do remember that one time way back you mentioned the Claudette Colbert version of Cleopatra once as something that influenced the Professor ... perhaps as the basis for his drawing of Nayari having her husband hauled off to be hurled into the sealed temple of the Goddess of the Pale Bone? Maybe I'm wrong about how exactly it inspired him, but I kept an eye out for it, and coincidentally, not long after you mentioned it, it was shown on TCM and I recorded it but sadly my wife accidentally deleted it before I could watch. Doh. I hope to have another chance. Unfortunately, its not a version you see shown very often. More often its Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton.


In any case, genre movies from the silent era to the 50s are always good Tekumel inspiration. "Thief of Baghdad" genre in particular....
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 16, 2016, 11:33:53 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;892260
Gamers seem particularly sloppy about that in general as a community.  My model railroad friends don't tolerate that; if the trains start running at 7:30 PM they start running at 7:30 PM.  If you arrive late you may not get a train at all, and if you arrive late too many times without advance notice you will likely get taken off the invitation list.

As one modeler says, "The way to start on time is to start on time."
So you are saying the folks who run the trains start on time? Who'd have guessed. :)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;892268
By the way, saw the old movie "Helen of Troy" today, and there was a galley very much like one of yours - wonderful to see, and I thought of you instantly! :)
I just recorded that. I'll have to watch for the galley.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 16, 2016, 11:44:45 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;892272
The 1956 version? I don't remember it, but I will definitely keep an eye out for it.... I do remember that one time way back you mentioned the Claudette Colbert version of Cleopatra once as something that influenced the Professor ... perhaps as the basis for his drawing of Nayari having her husband hauled off to be hurled into the sealed temple of the Goddess of the Pale Bone? Maybe I'm wrong about how exactly it inspired him, but I kept an eye out for it, and coincidentally, not long after you mentioned it, it was shown on TCM and I recorded it but sadly my wife accidentally deleted it before I could watch. Doh. I hope to have another chance. Unfortunately, its not a version you see shown very often. More often its Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton.


In any case, genre movies from the silent era to the 50s are always good Tekumel inspiration. "Thief of Baghdad" genre in particular....


That's the one. It's the ship that appears in the first part of the film, where Paris of Troy gets shipwrecked.

Ms Colbert in her costume looks just like Nayari. The face is even the same. Princess Ma'in is the actress from the color version of "Thief of Baghdad", even to the hair. He also suggested "Sign of the Cross", as well as the silent "Thief of Baghdad".

Phil actually liked the Taylor-Burton version; the sea battle, in both this and the "Ben-Hur" movies (silent and sound) where what he thought that sea battles on Tekumel should look like. Dave Arneson's love of pirate swashbucklers was An Unfortunate Influence on Phil. Dramamine is indicated.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 17, 2016, 12:01:06 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;892278
Dave Arneson's love of pirate swashbucklers was An Unfortunate Influence on Phil. Dramamine is indicated.


"Are you alright, Glorious General?"

"BLURRRRRGCHHH!!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 17, 2016, 12:07:18 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;892279
"Are you alright, Glorious General?"

"BLURRRRRGCHHH!!"


Ships, carts, aircars, spacecraft, palanquins. It was all the same to Phil; "Roll percentile dice, please..."

And people wondered why I preferred to walk...:hmm:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on April 17, 2016, 04:36:30 AM
Interesting speculation last night about play styles. The expectations of players now seems to be very different to those we had back in the Seventies. Like many others from the time I came from wargaming (since '68) but the role playing environment didn't have any sort of competitive interaction between the players (the GM and the players most certainly) except once one got a high enough level that one was running a fief. I don't remember any examples of inter-player fighting unless due to possession etc.

Nowadays there's much more of a GM being a 'fan of the players' and a 'social contract to make a story together' vibe. I've got no issue with that but when you take a modern player and their expectations and put them into the same situation we faced in 1974 things go south very quickly.

I recently ran a game based on OD&D but set in the Elizabethan period and when his character died in the first fight the 15 yo player didn't want to play any more. In the past we would have either negotiated from a position of weakness as low level characters or rolled another character and learnt the lesson.

The Dungeon Crawl Classics game style of level-0 funnel where everyone gets 4 level 0 characters and runs them through an adventure with a level 1 PC coming out the end or getting all the characters killed is going to be a bit of a shock if you aren't fully in the picture and your expectations managed.

Games where chargen takes a long time or where it takes a long time to get a character to a position where they can participate fully in the game tend to have a lot of in-game 'armour' for PC's (e.g. huge stacks of hit points, multiple ways to cheat death with long periods of 'bleeding out') purely so the player can continue to play and not have to generate another character. These players are far less cautious in dealing with the unexpected because they fully expect either the GM to not play too hard or to survive any traps or ambushes. Players have conditioned to expect the 'zero to hero' play progression with added plot armour for PC's whereas we entered the dungeon with a dozen PC's and henchmen each and came out with a lot less but unfazed by the result.

The look on a players face recently when his carefully crafted elf who always stood at the back and shot arrows got leapt on and badly chewed by the Werewolf of Mirkwood, putting him down to zero Endurance in a single attack, was a thing of beauty. The look of shock and horror brought back some great memories of gaming in years past.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on April 17, 2016, 05:01:33 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;892248
And there you are; there are a lot of mysteries floating around, especially around the Petal Throne. Listening to the tape, I was flabberghasted to hear that the clerics of The One Other are part of the rituals surrounding the enthronement. Phil can still surprise, even when you think you know 'for sure'...


Oooo, sorry but I have to ask - what tape would that be? I'd love to hear some of the original games going on.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on April 17, 2016, 12:38:49 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;892250
we first encountered The One Other in person, the being was down a long, dark, tunnel; we simply spoke up, not wanting to see what was at the other end of the tunnel.


How many of the gods did you guys meet? Funniest/most comical meet and greet? Scariest, not including the Goddess of the Pale Bone?

I assume the run in with the One Other and any others will be in your book.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 17, 2016, 01:15:00 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;892250
Funny you should mention that; When we first encountered The One Other in person, the being was down a long, dark, tunnel; we simply spoke up, not wanting to see what was at the other end of the tunnel.

A Target store, maybe? :)

Makes total sense!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;892256
Agreed. I've got over 123,000 words done, another 177, 000 to go, and I've barely scratched the surface. And I've got lots of other stuff on tap; lovely day here, with +77F and a nice breeze, and I got to cut stock for several projects - including my greatest and very bestest game, which will surpass anything I have ever done. Period.

I love my table saw. :)

You know we'll ask for pictures from said game, right:)?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;892258

Getting people to show up on time for games, though... :mad:

I know that feeling. In general, I tell everybody we're starting one hour earlier than I want them to arrive;).

Quote from: Zirunel;892264
my gaming period was 1978-1984. Later than some, earlier than most. And I was a teenaged boy playing in what, despite the participation of some girls, was basically teenaged boy culture. We were all wargamers previously, and yeah it was pretty competitive. After the first 3 years or so we were playing the domain game, so a campaign in the Tony Bath sense. The DM was no longer even the antagonist really, we were fighting each other (through proxy allies and armies, not actually swinging swords at each other) and he just managed the chaos. Sure, we could do some brutal stuff, "all in good fun" of course. But I am pretty confident that using the "game" to play out overt, ongoing sexual aggression, if it had ever happened (which it didn't) would have been uncomfortable for everyone. First awkward, second uncool, third go away you are creeping everyone out. Even if the sexual aggression were directed against NPCs it would be awkward. But directed against the girl (or boy) sitting next to you at the table? I honestly cannot imagine that. Not even in that ancient time, not even at our immature age. Never mind the times or the age of the participants, something went very very wrong there in the TNG. Gronan, I think your first gut reaction was the right one.

Well, I think you're all forgetting something. We know Phil allowed it to stand, which is admittedly a mistake, but an understandable one.
But what should we say about the player that executed that plan? Seriously?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;892281
Ships, carts, aircars, spacecraft, palanquins. It was all the same to Phil; "Roll percentile dice, please..."

And people wondered why I preferred to walk...:hmm:

Wasn't that what he was doing with fights, too? And with negotiations?

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;892302

Nowadays there's much more of a GM being a 'fan of the players' and a 'social contract to make a story together' vibe. I've got no issue with that but when you take a modern player and their expectations and put them into the same situation we faced in 1974 things go south very quickly.

"Fan of the characters". The distinction is really important: being a fan of the characters, the referee pushes them in a meatgrinder to see how they'd get out (and if). Being a fan of the players...well, then we get [STRIKE]the modern abomination of a playstyle[/STRIKE] players that expect to win in the end;)!

Quote
I recently ran a game based on OD&D but set in the Elizabethan period and when his character died in the first fight the 15 yo player didn't want to play any more. In the past we would have either negotiated from a position of weakness as low level characters or rolled another character and learnt the lesson.

You mean "Backswords and Bucklers"? I ran it for my group, couple of years ago. I think only one player didn't go through a couple of characters...:D
Nobody complained, although nobody at the table has been born in the 70ies. In fact, some had missed the 80ies as well.
 
Quote
The Dungeon Crawl Classics game style of level-0 funnel where everyone gets 4 level 0 characters and runs them through an adventure with a level 1 PC coming out the end or getting all the characters killed is going to be a bit of a shock if you aren't fully in the picture and your expectations managed.

Or you know, you might just tell them "don't worry, you're unlikely to end up with more than one character, if that much".

Quote
Games where chargen takes a long time or where it takes a long time to get a character to a position where they can participate fully in the game tend to have a lot of in-game 'armour' for PC's (e.g. huge stacks of hit points, multiple ways to cheat death with long periods of 'bleeding out') purely so the player can continue to play and not have to generate another character.

Well, yes, you don't want to spend a couple hours generating a character that might get killed in a single swing. Those games that have long chargen and lethal combat actually see the players being even more cautious than some players in fast-chargen scenarios, IME!

Quote
These players are far less cautious in dealing with the unexpected because they fully expect either the GM to not play too hard or to survive any traps or ambushes.

Not in my experience, unless the system features "long chargen and not particularly gritty combat". It's a combination I personally find almost useless.

Quote
Players have conditioned to expect the 'zero to hero' play progression with added plot armour for PC's whereas we entered the dungeon with a dozen PC's and henchmen each and came out with a lot less but unfazed by the result.

I tend to explain that plot armour is something I abstain from before we start a campaign. If anyone is surprised after that, they get to be reminded of what I said.

Quote
The look on a players face recently when his carefully crafted elf who always stood at the back and shot arrows got leapt on and badly chewed by the Werewolf of Mirkwood, putting him down to zero Endurance in a single attack, was a thing of beauty. The look of shock and horror brought back some great memories of gaming in years past.

Indeed. Let me tell you about the time when I cut off the hand of a martial artist in a wuxia game:p!
He was fighting students of the guy who was fighting the whole group in another location. One of them scored a lucky hit in a hand and almost got killed. Then both of them realised they're no match for him, and the guy that was hurt started trying to intercept all his attacks. The other one focused on getting a targetted shot in the wounded but not yet disabled hand.
Two rounds later, the NPC managed it. The player failed the roll and lost consciousness.
He never saw how the NPC ally who had remained behind got him and the hand out of this, and was later surprised to learn that said NPC has studied martial arts under the same teacher as the teacher of those two. (I think he never realised that this is why the NPC remained behind).

That's me running a game in the vein of "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon", BTW. High power used stupidly and irresponsibly gets you in the deepest...problems;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 17, 2016, 04:35:33 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;892302
Interesting speculation last night about play styles. The expectations of players now seems to be very different to those we had back in the Seventies. Like many others from the time I came from wargaming (since '68) but the role playing environment didn't have any sort of competitive interaction between the players (the GM and the players most certainly) except once one got a high enough level that one was running a fief. I don't remember any examples of inter-player fighting unless due to possession etc.


Add to this, though, the fact that Phil was a big fan of Dying Earth (Our Motto:  EVERYBODY is an asshole) and also consciously trying to make Tekumel not a "nice" place.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 17, 2016, 04:40:18 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;892302
I've got no issue with that but when you take a modern player and their expectations and put them into the same situation we faced in 1974 things go south very quickly.


For me the most frustrating part for both me and the players is my notion that "the players must go find adventure."  Even when I SAY that, players don't seem to grasp what I mean, or how to do it.  I actually had one person (the young man I mentioned before) say "I have no idea what you mean when you say that."

Part of it I blame on the "Gather Information" skill roll.  I've seen PLENTY of players roll dice and say "I got a (whatever,) what do I learn."  The notion that when I say "you have to visit bars and taverns and buy drinks and ask for rumors" they actually have to DO so, and listen, and sort things out themselves, doesn't even occur to them.

Nor, it seems, does simple logic:  "Look, there's a waterfront, with ships, and warehouses.  Therefore, goods are being shipped by water.  Therefore, there ARE pirates.  And smugglers.  Do we want to fight them or join them?"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 17, 2016, 07:58:11 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;892361
For me the most frustrating part for both me and the players is my notion that "the players must go find adventure."  Even when I SAY that, players don't seem to grasp what I mean, or how to do it.  I actually had one person (the young man I mentioned before) say "I have no idea what you mean when you say that."

Part of it I blame on the "Gather Information" skill roll.  I've seen PLENTY of players roll dice and say "I got a (whatever,) what do I learn."  The notion that when I say "you have to visit bars and taverns and buy drinks and ask for rumors" they actually have to DO so, and listen, and sort things out themselves, doesn't even occur to them.

Nor, it seems, does simple logic:  "Look, there's a waterfront, with ships, and warehouses.  Therefore, goods are being shipped by water.  Therefore, there ARE pirates.  And smugglers.  Do we want to fight them or join them?"


Some people's kids:rolleyes:
 I run into this all the time when I play " Papers & Paychecks". ;)
I think this is something that is endemic with people of a certain age demographic. I'm sure that it's a societal thing. Although, everyone I regularly adventure with is 40+,and they know rumours/information is kind of like gold in a river; it needs to be panned if you want it.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 17, 2016, 09:14:26 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));892304
Oooo, sorry but I have to ask - what tape would that be? I'd love to hear some of the original games going on.


Back in the late 1980s, we did a series of interviews with Phil about various subjects that interested people. We have a pile of tape on Malchairan, Thraya, the Temple of Belkhanu, the Kolumeljalim, stuff like that. All background / source materials, but with a few references to the situation in the meta-game.

We also have a lot of hours of game sessions; these are, I have to say, deadly dull and boring. We did a lot of socializing over the game table, and there are literally hours where there is no gaming going on whatsoever.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 17, 2016, 09:17:14 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;892334
How many of the gods did you guys meet? Funniest/most comical meet and greet? Scariest, not including the Goddess of the Pale Bone?

I assume the run in with the One Other and any others will be in your book.


All o them, at one time or another. None of them were 'funny'; they didn't have much of a sense of humor, at all.

Scariest, hands down, was The One Who Is. Totally alien, and we had nothing in common with him/her/it.

Yes, of course! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 17, 2016, 09:21:59 PM
From AsenRG:
You know we'll ask for pictures from said game, right:)?

And you'll get them. This is going to be good.

Wasn't that what he was doing with fights, too? And with negotiations?

Yep. That was his standard way of doing things.

Very good points about game play, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 17, 2016, 09:25:46 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;892361
For me the most frustrating part for both me and the players is my notion that "the players must go find adventure."  Even when I SAY that, players don't seem to grasp what I mean, or how to do it.  I actually had one person (the young man I mentioned before) say "I have no idea what you mean when you say that."

Part of it I blame on the "Gather Information" skill roll.  I've seen PLENTY of players roll dice and say "I got a (whatever,) what do I learn."  The notion that when I say "you have to visit bars and taverns and buy drinks and ask for rumors" they actually have to DO so, and listen, and sort things out themselves, doesn't even occur to them.

Nor, it seems, does simple logic:  "Look, there's a waterfront, with ships, and warehouses.  Therefore, goods are being shipped by water.  Therefore, there ARE pirates.  And smugglers.  Do we want to fight them or join them?"


Yaeh, I'd say that this is often the case. No matter how many times I say it, I used to get blank looks from the players when I'd ask the question, "What do you want to do today?", followed by "I am not going to run this adventure for you - this is not 'directed play'."

One of the myriad joys of Tekumel is that there's always Something To Do, if only the players will look around them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 18, 2016, 04:31:39 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;892358
Add to this, though, the fact that Phil was a big fan of Dying Earth (Our Motto:  EVERYBODY is an asshole) and also consciously trying to make Tekumel not a "nice" place.

It's a thin line to walk, between not nice for the platers and not nice for characters:). And there's no universal metric, at all.
I've had PCs sold in slavery before, captured and made slaves, and worse. But all my players know that nothing is off the table, so there are fewer complaints;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;892361
For me the most frustrating part for both me and the players is my notion that "the players must go find adventure."  Even when I SAY that, players don't seem to grasp what I mean, or how to do it.  I actually had one person (the young man I mentioned before) say "I have no idea what you mean when you say that."

I do it by example. We either play with another GM, with me as a player, or I invite a player who's used to that to join, at least for a few sessions.
Either way, they see how a PCs goes and finds adventures, and gets rich and influential as a result.

Quote
Part of it I blame on the "Gather Information" skill roll.  I've seen PLENTY of players roll dice and say "I got a (whatever,) what do I learn."  The notion that when I say "you have to visit bars and taverns and buy drinks and ask for rumors" they actually have to DO so, and listen, and sort things out themselves, doesn't even occur to them.

"There's no such skill in my game, you roleplay it out".

Quote
Nor, it seems, does simple logic:  "Look, there's a waterfront, with ships, and warehouses.  Therefore, goods are being shipped by water.  Therefore, there ARE pirates.  And smugglers.  Do we want to fight them or join them?"

There's always "or ignore them", unless they've expressed interest in nautical adventures.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;892394
From AsenRG:
You know we'll ask for pictures from said game, right:)?

And you'll get them. This is going to be good.


Quote
Wasn't that what he was doing with fights, too? And with negotiations?

Yep. That was his standard way of doing things.

That really puts into perspective all the ranting against unified resolution mechanics from OSR guys:p!

Quote
Very good points about game play, too.

Thank you, I'm doing my best to learn. This thread has been really helpful;)!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;892396
Yaeh, I'd say that this is often the case. No matter how many times I say it, I used to get blank looks from the players when I'd ask the question, "What do you want to do today?", followed by "I am not going to run this adventure for you - this is not 'directed play'."

One of the myriad joys of Tekumel is that there's always Something To Do, if only the players will look around them.

That's why I make the write goals on their character sheets:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 18, 2016, 10:30:27 AM
Chirine,

I was wondering if you ever made it over to Mu'ugalavya. It seems to me that of the Five Empires this nation is the least detailed. Each of the others got some attention in Phil's novels. Had he planned on doing something with Mu'ugalavya in a future work? Also I seem to recall that this is one of the earliest nations developed for Tekumel by Phil. Didn't his childhood friend create it in counter to Tsolyanu?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on April 18, 2016, 01:19:19 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;892458
... Mu'ugalavya. It seems to me that of the Five Empires this nation is the least detailed. Each of the others got some attention in Phil's novels. Had he planned on doing something with Mu'ugalavya in a future work?


Was this "intentionally left blank" for other people to use in their games maybe?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 18, 2016, 02:22:31 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;892473
Was this "intentionally left blank" for other people to use in their games maybe?
=


That's a good point. I never thought of that. Just enough to get someone started, but with a lot of freedom left over to customise.:hmm:

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on April 18, 2016, 06:58:44 PM
Shemek,

I private messaged you the link(s) to my game.
It not a secret but I didn't want to make it look like I was recruiting by posting again here.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 18, 2016, 07:48:33 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;892542
Shemek,

I private messaged you the link(s) to my game.
It not a secret but I didn't want to make it look like I was recruiting by posting again here.
=


Cool. I'll check it out.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 18, 2016, 11:07:23 PM
Gentlemen,

Just a fyi, The Excellent Travelling Volume number 5 is available...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 19, 2016, 01:49:38 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;892437

That really puts into perspective all the ranting against unified resolution mechanics from OSR guys:p!

Thank you, I'm doing my best to learn. This thread has been really helpful;)!


Oh. Well, what Phil used to do in most situations we simply tell us to roll percentile dice, and he'd roll against us. This was the foundation of his:

Each of us rolls percentile dice.
If you role high, your view of reality prevails.
If I role high, my view of reality prevails.
If we're close, we negotiate.


It seemed to work for us.

And you're welcome; I'm just happy to be able to be helpful! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 19, 2016, 02:01:35 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;892458
Chirine,

I was wondering if you ever made it over to Mu'ugalavya. It seems to me that of the Five Empires this nation is the least detailed. Each of the others got some attention in Phil's novels. Had he planned on doing something with Mu'ugalavya in a future work? Also I seem to recall that this is one of the earliest nations developed for Tekumel by Phil. Didn't his childhood friend create it in counter to Tsolyanu?

Shemek.


Yes, we did, many times over the years. We got out as far as Gaschine, with is right up there with Penom in the running for the armpit of the planet. Penom is wet, Gaschine is dry; the latter has the Churstalli, and the creatures that eat them.

The action of Phil's novels never went there, mostly because neither of his protagonists had a good reason to be there. The place is actually pretty well developed in game terms in the Sourcebook, as well as some posts and articles. Phil just never particularly liked like the place.

It was one of the original Five Empires, and appears on both his high school map of Tekumel and his college ones when he played with the other four in his circle. I have the list of their names, and one of my favorite guessing games over the years has been to try and match up who which player ran which empire in the original map campaign that they played in the early 1950s. Beyond that, all I have are the childhood photos and fragments of texts in my collection.

I don;t know if he ever planned to do more; the thirteen chapters of the draft of his unfinished last novel, "Beside The Dark Pool Of Memory", don't seem to have the clear plot arc that the earlier novels do. One of these days, when I get some spare time, I'll look at it in more detail.

I don't know if that helps, at all...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 19, 2016, 02:02:47 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;892473
Was this "intentionally left blank" for other people to use in their games maybe?
=


Could be; it just seemed to us that he wasn't all that interested in the place.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 19, 2016, 02:05:17 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;892487
That's a good point. I never thought of that. Just enough to get someone started, but with a lot of freedom left over to customise.:hmm:

Shemek.


Basically, yes. Phil's habit was to sketch out areas and peoples in broad detail, so that he could have a source of rumors and adventures, and then go back and fill in the details when he got us out there - it seemed to get his creative juices going to have us asking questions.

And keep in mind that the rest of the globe is blank; we only know a lot about one quarter of the planet's surface...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 19, 2016, 02:06:10 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;892600
Gentlemen,

Just a fyi, The Excellent Travelling Volume number 5 is available...

H:0)


Great! We'll contact the man... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 19, 2016, 03:37:37 AM
Shemek, could you PM me the same link(s), please:)?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;892639
Oh. Well, what Phil used to do in most situations we simply tell us to roll percentile dice, and he'd roll against us. This was the foundation of his:

Each of us rolls percentile dice.
If you role high, your view of reality prevails.
If I role high, my view of reality prevails.
If we're close, we negotiate.


It seemed to work for us.

And you're welcome; I'm just happy to be able to be helpful! :)

On a system level, that's beautiful in its simplicity.
(I'd make it "roll under attribute and compare the margins of success or failure", but that's all;)).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;892646
Basically, yes. Phil's habit was to sketch out areas and peoples in broad detail, so that he could have a source of rumors and adventures, and then go back and fill in the details when he got us out there - it seemed to get his creative juices going to have us asking questions.

And keep in mind that the rest of the globe is blank; we only know a lot about one quarter of the planet's surface...

That's hardly surprising to anyone, I'd hope. A lot of people develop their characters the same way. Starting with what the system requires, than filling in the blanks as the game goes on.
It's also an informal trick for writers that getting people to read it and ask questions acts as a brainstorm. Phil was probably familiar with that advice, what with him writing novels and knowing Gordon Dickson:D!

The line that dissuades me from purchasing the Excellent travelling volumes is simply the one that says "print-only".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 19, 2016, 10:53:43 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;892659
Shemek, could you PM me the same link(.


Done. Check your inbox.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 19, 2016, 11:16:10 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;892707
Done. Check your inbox.

Shemek.


Thank you! Though I suspect I should have asked Greentongue...:D
Ah well, hope he wouldn't mind it;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on April 19, 2016, 02:31:11 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;892717
Thank you! Though I suspect I should have asked Greentongue...:D
Ah well, hope he wouldn't mind it;).


I don't mind.  
Certainly not a shining example of "How To Play EPT".
Just my dusting off of old memories with Actual Play.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 20, 2016, 10:01:01 PM
From AsenRG:
On a system level, that's beautiful in its simplicity.
(I'd make it "roll under attribute and compare the margins of success or failure", but that's all;)).


Agreed. Phil would, on occasion, ask what our stats for our PCs might be, and then use that number as the number to roll against. It's why EPT uses a d100 roll for stats. Most of the time, we'd be the ones expected to do the number crunching; we'd look at our stat, roll, and tell Phil if we'd made it or not. It was the custom of the house to tell the table what we'd rolled, so everybody could laugh and see what Phil would come up with. The custom of the house was that a drastically missed roll resulted in a comic failure, and a drastically made roll was a dramatic success. Phil loved to improvise bits of business, based on this; I think he would have been happy on the stage...

Phil strongly believed in 'keep it simple'; and keeping the game flowing around the table.

That's hardly surprising to anyone, I'd hope. A lot of people develop their characters the same way. Starting with what the system requires, than filling in the blanks as the game goes on.
It's also an informal trick for writers that getting people to read it and ask questions acts as a brainstorm. Phil was probably familiar with that advice, what with him writing novels and knowing Gordon Dickson:D!


It seems to be; there's the mythology that Tekumel sprang from Phil's head fully formed, and is a rigid inflexible mass. It was pretty well developed, from what I can see in the 1940s and 1950s documents, but the game play in the late 1970s and early 1980s caused him to develop areas that he'd only broadly sketched out. Tekumel, in the mass, was about 90% fully formed by the middle 1950s, and about all we did was fill in the spaces around the edges.
Title: An observation
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 20, 2016, 10:05:01 PM
I've been asked, every now and then, where I get my inspiration for the games I build. Well, all I can do is mention how some people do things over the water, and point folks here...

http://shedwars.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/2016-salute-pictures.html (http://shedwars.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/2016-salute-pictures.html)

This is from the UK show Salute, run this past weekend. I suspect that I am more of a 'British' sort of gamer, then an 'American' one... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 20, 2016, 10:41:57 PM
Or perhaps we just go back far enough that we still participate in the common roots.

EDIT:  I just realized I'm using "participate" in the Platonic sense here.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 20, 2016, 10:45:29 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893193
I've been asked, every now and then, where I get my inspiration for the games I build. Well, all I can do is mention how some people do things over the water, and point folks here...

http://shedwars.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/2016-salute-pictures.html (http://shedwars.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/2016-salute-pictures.html)

This is from the UK show Salute, run this past weekend. I suspect that I am more of a 'British' sort of gamer, then an 'American' one... :)


Thanks for the link. I am envious. There are a lot of great tables set up there; I really wish I was in the UK! I think I recognize a few of the games being played. A couple of the tables would be great for Tekumel.


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 20, 2016, 11:57:50 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;893202
Or perhaps we just go back far enough that we still participate in the common roots.

EDIT:  I just realized I'm using "participate" in the Platonic sense here.


I think you're right about this. It does seem that we're doing an older, more trans-Atlantic style of gaming, doesn't it? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 20, 2016, 11:59:01 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;893203
Thanks for the link. I am envious. There are a lot of great tables set up there; I really wish I was in the UK! I think I recognize a few of the games being played. A couple of the tables would be great for Tekumel.

Shemek


You're welcome! I look at things like this to get ideas from - the vertical extender on my game table was inspired by this sort of thing...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on April 21, 2016, 04:02:26 AM
If you enjoyed those pictures from Salute then I suspect that some of you would enjoy a trip to Historicon in Virginia and being able to game with Howard Whitehouse a Brit living in NY who runs amazing pulp games with very impressive scenery

For example:
https://i1.wp.com/static.flickr.com/69/196352112_712e24857d.jpg (https://i1.wp.com/static.flickr.com/69/196352112_712e24857d.jpg)

or
http://http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-26z1gsi6QEI/VL_Y_uv8cVI/AAAAAAAANJs/CSRayBJ8ROw/s1600/DSCF8553.JPG (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-26z1gsi6QEI/VL_Y_uv8cVI/AAAAAAAANJs/CSRayBJ8ROw/s1600/DSCF8553.JPG)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 21, 2016, 07:25:42 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893192
From AsenRG:
On a system level, that's beautiful in its simplicity.
(I'd make it "roll under attribute and compare the margins of success or failure", but that's all;)).


Agreed. Phil would, on occasion, ask what our stats for our PCs might be, and then use that number as the number to roll against. It's why EPT uses a d100 roll for stats. Most of the time, we'd be the ones expected to do the number crunching; we'd look at our stat, roll, and tell Phil if we'd made it or not. It was the custom of the house to tell the table what we'd rolled, so everybody could laugh and see what Phil would come up with. The custom of the house was that a drastically missed roll resulted in a comic failure, and a drastically made roll was a dramatic success. Phil loved to improvise bits of business, based on this; I think he would have been happy on the stage...

Phil strongly believed in 'keep it simple'; and keeping the game flowing around the table.

That's exactly how "roll under, compare how much you made it by" should work, and entire systems like Pendragon are based on it:D.

Quote
That's hardly surprising to anyone, I'd hope. A lot of people develop their characters the same way. Starting with what the system requires, than filling in the blanks as the game goes on.
It's also an informal trick for writers that getting people to read it and ask questions acts as a brainstorm. Phil was probably familiar with that advice, what with him writing novels and knowing Gordon Dickson:D!


It seems to be; there's the mythology that Tekumel sprang from Phil's head fully formed, and is a rigid inflexible mass. It was pretty well developed, from what I can see in the 1940s and 1950s documents, but the game play in the late 1970s and early 1980s caused him to develop areas that he'd only broadly sketched out. Tekumel, in the mass, was about 90% fully formed by the middle 1950s, and about all we did was fill in the spaces around the edges.

Well, yeah, getting inspiration for stuff that leaves you not-so-inspired is the point of the whole exercise with the questions. And by getting your PCs into the fray, he could ensure you were obligated to ask loads of questions;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on April 21, 2016, 11:47:33 AM
How did you guys first find your way into the Underworld? I know there are entrances all over the place in Jakalla but where did you guys first go in? Did you go in on your own or were you sent in?

Did you always carry a mace or did you start when you found a steel one?

What was the Glorious General's weapon of choice?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 21, 2016, 02:02:00 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;893235
If you enjoyed those pictures from Salute then I suspect that some of you would enjoy a trip to Historicon in Virginia and being able to game with Howard Whitehouse a Brit living in NY who runs amazing pulp games with very impressive scenery

For example:
https://i1.wp.com/static.flickr.com/69/196352112_712e24857d.jpg (https://i1.wp.com/static.flickr.com/69/196352112_712e24857d.jpg)

or
http://http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-26z1gsi6QEI/VL_Y_uv8cVI/AAAAAAAANJs/CSRayBJ8ROw/s1600/DSCF8553.JPG (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-26z1gsi6QEI/VL_Y_uv8cVI/AAAAAAAANJs/CSRayBJ8ROw/s1600/DSCF8553.JPG)


Oh, yes, very much so! Howard runs some really cool games! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 21, 2016, 02:04:01 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;893257
That's exactly how "roll under, compare how much you made it by" should work, and entire systems like Pendragon are based on it:D.


Well, yeah, getting inspiration for stuff that leaves you not-so-inspired is the point of the whole exercise with the questions. And by getting your PCs into the fray, he could ensure you were obligated to ask loads of questions;)!


Interesting! I've never really looked at games like "Pendragon", so this is fascinating.

And we did, too. Phil realy enjoyed the questions, and it was amazing to watch him be creative on the spot.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 21, 2016, 02:32:40 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;893314
How did you guys first find your way into the Underworld? I know there are entrances all over the place in Jakalla but where did you guys first go in? Did you go in on your own or were you sent in?

Did you always carry a mace or did you start when you found a steel one?

What was the Glorious General's weapon of choice?


We had 'local guides' who would show us the entrances, and who were representatives of the surface property owner. I'd have to go back and look in my notes, but I'm pretty sure we went down through the necropolis the first time I went down there. As usual, it was on some errand for somebody - Lady Mnella, I think.

The Glorious General is a swordsman, and a noted one at that.

I started out with a mace; a I recall, there's a rule in EPT that 'Priests' - the EPT version of the D&D 'Cleric' - are required to use maces for doctrinal reasons. (Me, I think it was because Gary asked him to do it that way, so that EPT was more compatible with and for D&D.) So, I rolled for 'special stuff', which Phil did for all of the new players at that time, and I rolled a '00'; the net result was that I had a +4+5 steel mace from the beginning. We later came up with the 'back story' reason why an obscure priest from the Chakas had such a powerful weapon - I still have to write that bit for the book. :)

Later on, Phil relaxed this rule, and we carried whatever we liked. Maces still stayed very popular, with everybody, but I think I was the only 'real' priest in the party for many years - everybody else was a fighter or a magic-user. After I got commissioned into my first legion, I had a lot more options for weapons. By the time we got to Hekellu, the usual 'load-out' was:

Two knives, in hidden sheath on belt pouch, left side, rear
Short dagger, on belt, left side
Long dagger, on belt, right side
Short sword, on belt, left side
Mace, on belt, right side
Round steel buckler, left arm
Steel two-handed sword, slung over back on baldric

and:

Linen undertunic, padded over tunic, leather jerkin, steel mail hauberk and neck guard, steel breast and back, steel shoulder pauldrons, steel helmet, leather wristlets, greaves over leather boots.

If one is looking at encumbrance, the answer is yes, I can carry all this stuff. The armor weighs 38 pounds all up, and the weapons add another fifteen pounds. (The total weight is less then half the weight I carried in my Army basic training, by the way.) It's all in the time you spend practicing; you do get used to it.

And how do I know how much it all weighs? Because I own it. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 21, 2016, 03:05:04 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;893202
Or perhaps we just go back far enough that we still participate in the common roots.
Dude you're old, but you are hardly pre-Revolutionary.

Quote
EDIT:  I just realized I'm using "participate" in the Platonic sense here.
I blame the seminary.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;893192
Agreed. Phil would, on occasion, ask what our stats for our PCs might be, and then use that number as the number to roll against. It's why EPT uses a d100 roll for stats.
The FASA version of Star Trek used d100 stats. I don't like stats on d100, but for some reason it didn't bother me for Star Trek.

Quote from: AsenRG;893257
That's exactly how "roll under, compare how much you made it by" should work, and entire systems like Pendragon are based on it
Well, except for Pendragon using stats on (more or less) 3d6 and rolls using D20 instead of a D100.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 21, 2016, 03:42:19 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893357
Interesting! I've never really looked at games like "Pendragon", so this is fascinating.

It's basically THE game for King Arthur stories. The Glorious General would fit right in!

Quote
And we did, too. Phil realy enjoyed the questions, and it was amazing to watch him be creative on the spot.

Oh yes, it is lots of fun for everyone. It's also my preferred way to run games, because then you actually do less preparation.

Quote from: Bren;893380

Well, except for Pendragon using stats on (more or less) 3d6 and rolls using D20 instead of a D100.

Yes, Bren, so? That's not a systemic difference, it's a difference in presentation, and nothing that can't be rectified by multiplying by 5 or dividing by the same number.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on April 21, 2016, 04:48:58 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893365
We had 'local guides' who would show us the entrances, and who were representatives of the surface property owner. I'd have to go back and look in my notes, but I'm pretty sure we went down through the necropolis the first time I went down there. As usual, it was on some errand for somebody - Lady Mnella, I think.

Do you have to pay the owners for access? Like buying a ticket?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;893365
The Glorious General is a swordsman, and a noted one at that.

I remembered you guys mentioning that but was curious if he had one sword that he carried all over the globe like you did with your mace.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;893365
And how do I know how much it all weighs? Because I own it. :)

I've seen your armor (really cool, btw) but don't recall seeing the other suit. Is the Ksarul outfit for the Missus?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 21, 2016, 06:19:53 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;893390
Yes, Bren, so?
So Runequest/CoC/BRP with their use of D100 rolls would be a closer comparison to the die rolling used in the Swords and Glory version of EPT that Chirine mentioned than is Pendragon. I like Pendragon, but once you are using a D20 you are more or less back to the original EPT type of die rolling or to any roll under your stat version of D&D.

IIR, the most recent version of Call of Cthulhu actually switched from 3d6 ish stats to percentile based stats, which would be just about the same mechanic as Swords and Glory. Which is similar to the mechanic in FASA Star Trek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on April 21, 2016, 06:29:18 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;892250
Funny you should mention that; When we first encountered The One Other in person, the being was down a long, dark, tunnel; we simply spoke up, not wanting to see what was at the other end of the tunnel.

A Target store, maybe? :)


I happened to be reading through the Blue Room Archives tonight, and I came aross a section with a discussion of Pariah Gods, where it is strongly suggested that they are to some extent connected with the 20 deities.

Anyway, there was a passing comment that The One Other's objective is to return Tekumel to Humanspace. Which made me think that the dot and circle is possibly representative of Tekumel in its pocket dimension...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 21, 2016, 09:36:49 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893211
I think you're right about this. It does seem that we're doing an older, more trans-Atlantic style of gaming, doesn't it? :)


I seem to remember that when the hobby was much smaller folks ranged further afield.  I remember the Little Tin had at least a couple of British wargame magazines on a regular basis.  When Gary knew everybody at Gen Con (for instance), gaming was rather more homogeneous.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 21, 2016, 09:39:35 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;893314
How did you guys first find your way into the Underworld? I know there are entrances all over the place in Jakalla but where did you guys first go in? Did you go in on your own or were you sent in?


We were hired out of the Foreigners' Quarter to do some tomb robbing.  Our contact provided us with the entrance location.

Quote from: Big Andy;893314
What was the Glorious General's weapon of choice?


Sword.  Once I became a Molkar I hired a swordmaster as a tutor and learned the Arruche (two sword) style and became quite proficient at it.  However, I also kept up with the shield so I could join the troops when, as Johnny Cash said, "we were kickin' and gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 21, 2016, 09:42:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893357
Interesting! I've never really looked at games like "Pendragon", so this is fascinating.


"Pendragon" is Greg Stafford's love letter to Malory's "Le Morte d'Arthur."  For those of us who are enthusiastic about the source material it is breathtaking.

As the years passed it started to lose its way, and by 4th Edition it was on the verge of becoming a "generic fantasy role playing game."  But Greg decided in 5th edition to refocus on his core concept, eliminating over 100 pages of rules in the process.

His essay on his editing process in Pendragon 5th Edition should be required reading for anybody who wants to design a tightly focused RPG.  And it's fascinating in its own right.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 21, 2016, 09:45:46 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893365

The Glorious General is a swordsman, and a noted one at that.


Why, thank you.  That's very kind.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;893365
I started out with a mace; a I recall, there's a rule in EPT that 'Priests' - the EPT version of the D&D 'Cleric' - are required to use maces for doctrinal reasons. (Me, I think it was because Gary asked him to do it that way, so that EPT was more compatible with and for D&D.)


I'd give that about a 85% probability.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;893365

And how do I know how much it all weighs? Because I own it. :)


"It ain't braggin' if you can really do it." :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 21, 2016, 09:49:15 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;893408

I remembered you guys mentioning that but was curious if he had one sword that he carried all over the globe like you did with your mace.


Nope.  I started out as a barbarian with a Chlenhide dagger, then as a legion trooper, then as a Kasi and I finally got a steel weapon.

Much like Fafhrd, I got and lost swords all over the globe.  Before the desert campaign we did a lot more oddball missions and I wound up fighting with everything from a mace to a trident to a chidok (similar to the Shen axe-sword) to a log from the fire to a sharp pointy stick.

I think I bashed somebody over the head with a rock once, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 21, 2016, 10:42:44 PM
Chirine,

Most Tsolyani lineages begin with the prefix hi. There are exceptions, like your last name. I was wondering if you could tell us of any other lineages that do not use the hi prefix.
Also, does the Ito lineage use the hi?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 21, 2016, 10:47:09 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893365

By the time we got to Hekellu, the usual 'load-out' was:

Two knives, in hidden sheath on belt pouch, left side, rear
Short dagger, on belt, left side
Long dagger, on belt, right side
Short sword, on belt, left side
Mace, on belt, right side
Round steel buckler, left arm
Steel two-handed sword, slung over back on baldric

and:

Linen undertunic, padded over tunic, leather jerkin, steel mail hauberk and neck guard, steel breast and back, steel shoulder pauldrons, steel helmet, leather wristlets, greaves over leather boots.

If one is looking at encumbrance, the answer is yes, I can carry all this stuff. The armor weighs 38 pounds all up, and the weapons add another fifteen pounds. (The total weight is less then half the weight I carried in my Army basic training, by the way.) It's all in the time you spend practicing; you do get used to it.

And how do I know how much it all weighs? Because I own it. :)

First, it's obvious the rule on bladed weapons was relaxed:).
Second, no better proof for how things work than being able to show;)!

Quote from: Bren;893429
So Runequest/CoC/BRP with their use of D100 rolls would be a closer comparison to the die rolling used in the Swords and Glory version of EPT that Chirine mentioned than is Pendragon. I like Pendragon, but once you are using a D20 you are more or less back to the original EPT type of die rolling or to any roll under your stat version of D&D.

IIR, the most recent version of Call of Cthulhu actually switched from 3d6 ish stats to percentile based stats, which would be just about the same mechanic as Swords and Glory. Which is similar to the mechanic in FASA Star Trek.

Bren,
That's true, but none of it matters! I'm talking about the principle of "roll under stat, compare to another roll under stat". Whether you're rolling a d20 or a d100 is profoundly unimportant (assuming the stats cover the same range).
Runequest, on the other hand, doesn't use the same principle for combat (just for non-combat skills). So it's further away from the idea than Pendragon!

Why did I use Pendragon as an example? Because I suspected Chirine might be familiar with it (turns out I was wrong, but there you go). And because I know Gronan respects the game (as evidenced by his later post).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;893465
"Pendragon" is Greg Stafford's love letter to Malory's "Le Morte d'Arthur."  For those of us who are enthusiastic about the source material it is breathtaking.

As the years passed it started to lose its way, and by 4th Edition it was on the verge of becoming a "generic fantasy role playing game."  But Greg decided in 5th edition to refocus on his core concept, eliminating over 100 pages of rules in the process.

His essay on his editing process in Pendragon 5th Edition should be required reading for anybody who wants to design a tightly focused RPG.  And it's fascinating in its own right.

+1 to all of that, BTW:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 21, 2016, 10:53:22 PM
Chirine,

I have recently been rereading the Tekumel novels. I am currently finishing Man of Gold. You said that the Temple of  Sarku scene was lifted from a session of the Thursday Night Group's game. Exactly which parts were Chirine and the Glorious General involved in? That part where Hele'a of Ghaton was sacrificed to the One of Mouths was especially evocative. Did you guys witness that in the game, or something similar?  
Also, unless I'm mistaken weren't you part of the "Secret Thumis Mission"?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 21, 2016, 11:26:29 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;893481
Bren,
That's true, but none of it matters! I'm talking about the principle of "roll under stat, compare to another roll under stat". Whether you're rolling a d20 or a d100 is profoundly unimportant (assuming the stats cover the same range).
Runequest, on the other hand, doesn't use the same principle for combat (just for non-combat skills). So it's further away from the idea than Pendragon!
Runequest is at least as close. It uses opposed attack and defense rolls in combat. It's true it uses degrees of success rather than a simple linear amount of difference, but Pendragon doesn't use a linear degree of success at all.

Pendragon uses a Blackjack Roll Under method which is unlike what Chirine described. Let's look at an example.

In the version of Swords and Glory Chrine described, he and his opponent both roll and then they look at who exceeded their roll by the most amount to figure out who wins. So if Chirine succeeds by 20% he beats his opponent who succeeded by only 10%.

Pendragon doesn't work that way. You want to roll as close to the exact number you need to succeed as possible, but we don't compare the difference between the needed roll and the actual roll. So if I have a skill of 12 and you have a skill of 9 and you roll 8 while I roll 10, I win even though my degree of success is 2 away from my to hit number and your degree of success is only 1 away from your to hit number because although we both succeeded, I rolled a higher number than you did.

In fact any roll I make between 9 and 12 will beat any roll you can make other than you obtaining a critical success by rolling exactly 9, which would then beat any roll I could make except a critical hit (for which I would need to roll 12 exactly).

Pendragon is a cool system and the roll under Black Jack method it uses is rather elegant*, but it isn't any closer than Runequest to what I understand Chirine to have been describing as the method they used for comparing opposed d100 rolls.



* Elegant in that arithmetic is not required to figure out which roll wins. Not elegant in that it uses a flat 5% chance for a critical for any skills between 1 and 20.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 21, 2016, 11:38:24 PM
Was that "Gamalu's Secret Mission," Chirine?  :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 22, 2016, 02:00:25 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;893408
Do you have to pay the owners for access? Like buying a ticket?

I remembered you guys mentioning that but was curious if he had one sword that he carried all over the globe like you did with your mace.

I've seen your armor (really cool, btw) but don't recall seeing the other suit. Is the Ksarul outfit for the Missus?


It's considered polite to give the owners a little present, mostly 'cause you want to be on good terms with them - and also to make sure that they will open the door when you come running back in panic... :)

You know, you'd have to ask him - I think he talks about this in a reply...

Yes! That's my Missus' suit. She looks sooooo cute in it - like a little tank (or tankette, if you prefer) all armored up in stainless steel. The scales are actually Navy surplus lifeboat mirrors we picked up for cheap at the scrap yard. I made the helmet and mask; she did everything else. You should see her Temple sword!

She had a Horokangai PC, one of the guards at the Temple of Ksarul out past Hekellu. The black-and-silver triangular trim and the orange trim shows that she's a worshipper of Lord Vimuhla. Phil got to see this suit, and was pretty amazed.

The Missus (Queen of the Internet) bought me ten mannequins, so we have a number of costumes on display in the game lounge.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 22, 2016, 02:03:06 AM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));893434
I happened to be reading through the Blue Room Archives tonight, and I came aross a section with a discussion of Pariah Gods, where it is strongly suggested that they are to some extent connected with the 20 deities.

Anyway, there was a passing comment that The One Other's objective is to return Tekumel to Humanspace. Which made me think that the dot and circle is possibly representative of Tekumel in its pocket dimension...


They are; it's a thread that runs all through Phil's texts. I do know that The One Other was part of imprisoning Lord Ksarul, and seems to be very quietly tolerated in official circles. Still tried very hard to stay away from them, though.

Oh! I think you have something, there! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 22, 2016, 02:04:21 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;893461
I seem to remember that when the hobby was much smaller folks ranged further afield.  I remember the Little Tin had at least a couple of British wargame magazines on a regular basis.  When Gary knew everybody at Gen Con (for instance), gaming was rather more homogeneous.


Oh, yes, very much so. A lot of the books we had were by British gamers, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 22, 2016, 02:09:43 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;893467
Why, thank you.  That's very kind.

I'd give that about a 85% probability.

"It ain't braggin' if you can really do it." :D


You're welcome; I'm just reporting what I know. :)

I'd agree with that estimate. There is literally nothing in the files about the process that led to EPT; the first thing we have is the green-cover playtest edition, although I have heard rumors of a typed manuscript being out there somewhere that was mooted as being part of the box of papers that "Beyond This Point Be Dragons" was found in. The three of them were very close-mouthed about how EPT came to be, but then I was asking after The Great Lawsuit had gotten underway, and they were just not in a talkative mood. Can't blame them, really...

I have a bathroom scale, and I know how to use it... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 22, 2016, 02:11:10 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;893468
Nope.  I started out as a barbarian with a Chlenhide dagger, then as a legion trooper, then as a Kasi and I finally got a steel weapon.

Much like Fafhrd, I got and lost swords all over the globe.  Before the desert campaign we did a lot more oddball missions and I wound up fighting with everything from a mace to a trident to a chidok (similar to the Shen axe-sword) to a log from the fire to a sharp pointy stick.

I think I bashed somebody over the head with a rock once, too.


Don't forget the Pe Choi poop! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 22, 2016, 02:14:41 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;893479
Chirine,

Most Tsolyani lineages begin with the prefix hi. There are exceptions, like your last name. I was wondering if you could tell us of any other lineages that do not use the hi prefix.
Also, does the Ito lineage use the hi?

Shemek.


'hi' is mostly found in the central parts of the Imperium. 'vu' is from the island of Vra, and 'ba' is from the Chakas.

The Itos are a clan, first and foremost, and they don't seem to use lineages much - I'll look in the database for you and see what I can find. I do not recall ever hearing anyone called 'hi Ito' or 'ba Ito', though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 22, 2016, 02:18:17 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;893481
First, it's obvious the rule on bladed weapons was relaxed:).
Second, no better proof for how things work than being able to show;)!


Well, it was in my case, anyway. I learned the hard way to have spare weapons handy; on more then one occasion I'd toss one of the spares to another member of the party who was in trouble. "All for one, one for all!"

I love 'visual aids'! It makes the game a lot more fun, and the players seem to like being able to hold something like a sword or astrolabe; makes it more 'immediate', somehow...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 22, 2016, 02:20:28 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;893483
Chirine,

I have recently been rereading the Tekumel novels. I am currently finishing Man of Gold. You said that the Temple of  Sarku scene was lifted from a session of the Thursday Night Group's game. Exactly which parts were Chirine and the Glorious General involved in? That part where Hele'a of Ghaton was sacrificed to the One of Mouths was especially evocative. Did you guys witness that in the game, or something similar?  
Also, unless I'm mistaken weren't you part of the "Secret Thumis Mission"?

Shemek.


It was the bit where the protagonists are being chased around the place, before they're captured. And yes, we got en eyeful of sacrifices to the Worm Lord; not that particular one, though.

Yes; we're the fabled 'Secret Mission'! See next reply... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 22, 2016, 02:31:14 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;893492
Was that "Gamalu's Secret Mission," Chirine?  :D


It was, indeed. Lord Gamalu is, if you wanted my personal opinion, a fathead.

Being a player, one of the upstate New York crowd, he got the bright idea that he should help the Livyani invade the Tsolei Isles. The Imperium was not as enthusiastic, but to keep him happy (and keep his money coming in) we got 'volunteered' to wander out there and 'advise' the Livyani on how to do things.

The whole thing was supposed to be a big secret, so of course everybody on the planet was in on it. We'd show up in Mu'uglavya, for example, and get the run-around until they figured out that we were The Secret Mission, and after that is all smooth sailing.

It got to the point where I used some spare figures to make a set of banners, done in my best 'circus' typefonts, that said "HERE COMES LORD GAMALU'S SECRET MISSION!" to lead the party, and "THERE GOES LORD GAMALU'S SECRET MISSION!" to be the last thing you saw of us. I added flower-flingers, trumpeters, fan-bearers, drummers, lackeys throwing coins to the crowd, and all the usual stuff you'd expect to see in a Very Important And Very Secret Mission. (These days, you can get a marching band and cheerleaders. Yes, I would have.)

TAAA TAAA TAAARRAAA! ZING! BANG! BOOM! and so on...

Once he got over the initial shock, Phil laughed so hard I thought he was going to puke his Mountain Dew / Old Ahoggya Piss. ("It's what's in the Ahoggya that makes it yellow!") No shame; no shame at all, that's us. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 22, 2016, 05:13:22 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893515
They are; it's a thread that runs all through Phil's texts. I do know that The One Other was part of imprisoning Lord Ksarul, and seems to be very quietly tolerated in official circles. Still tried very hard to stay away from them, though.

Oh! I think you have something, there! :)

*scribbling notes*

Quote from: chirine ba kal;893520
Well, it was in my case, anyway. I learned the hard way to have spare weapons handy; on more then one occasion I'd toss one of the spares to another member of the party who was in trouble. "All for one, one for all!"

I love 'visual aids'! It makes the game a lot more fun, and the players seem to like being able to hold something like a sword or astrolabe; makes it more 'immediate', somehow...

If doctrinal reasons don't apply to Chirine ba Kal, they probably don't to others, either. They might be just deluded by, ahem, misinterpretations of the holy texts:)!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;893525
It was, indeed. Lord Gamalu is, if you wanted my personal opinion, a fathead.

Being a player, one of the upstate New York crowd, he got the bright idea that he should help the Livyani invade the Tsolei Isles. The Imperium was not as enthusiastic, but to keep him happy (and keep his money coming in) we got 'volunteered' to wander out there and 'advise' the Livyani on how to do things.

The whole thing was supposed to be a big secret, so of course everybody on the planet was in on it. We'd show up in Mu'uglavya, for example, and get the run-around until they figured out that we were The Secret Mission, and after that is all smooth sailing.

It got to the point where I used some spare figures to make a set of banners, done in my best 'circus' typefonts, that said "HERE COMES LORD GAMALU'S SECRET MISSION!" to lead the party, and "THERE GOES LORD GAMALU'S SECRET MISSION!" to be the last thing you saw of us. I added flower-flingers, trumpeters, fan-bearers, drummers, lackeys throwing coins to the crowd, and all the usual stuff you'd expect to see in a Very Important And Very Secret Mission. (These days, you can get a marching band and cheerleaders. Yes, I would have.)

TAAA TAAA TAAARRAAA! ZING! BANG! BOOM! and so on...

Once he got over the initial shock, Phil laughed so hard I thought he was going to puke his Mountain Dew / Old Ahoggya Piss. ("It's what's in the Ahoggya that makes it yellow!") No shame; no shame at all, that's us. :)

That's an excellent way of cutting through red tape. And of course, secrets in front of everybody is so very Lyviani!
Did that get you prestige, as it should;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 22, 2016, 11:53:10 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893519
'hi' is mostly found in the central parts of the Imperium. 'vu' is from the island of Vra, and 'ba' is from the Chakas.

The Itos are a clan, first and foremost, and they don't seem to use lineages much - I'll look in the database for you and see what I can find. I do not recall ever hearing anyone called 'hi Ito' or 'ba Ito', though.


Oh OK. I thought the Ito were like the Vriddi, ancient, arrogant, and self important. Not using lineages and such makes perfect sense.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 22, 2016, 12:31:06 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893520
Well, it was in my case, anyway. I learned the hard way to have spare weapons handy; on more then one occasion I'd toss one of the spares to another member of the party who was in trouble. "All for one, one for all!"

I love 'visual aids'! It makes the game a lot more fun, and the players seem to like being able to hold something like a sword or astrolabe; makes it more 'immediate', somehow...


Me too. I have been using props forever. I agree with what say about it being "immediate". I recently picked up a toy from the Dollar Store called "Finger Lasers".
They are perfect replicas for Eyes, and they have a bright little LED to provide an   "action effect":D They come 5 to a pack, sacrificed one to my granddaughter, for the greater good,  and was left with four for game use.
Props can also clarify any in game discrepancies, or doubts. I once had a player, who was 6' 2", adamantly maintain that he should get to roll full damage with a falchion while fighting in a 7' high x 5' wide corridor. I explained that it was a slashing/chopping weapon and that he didn't have enough space for a swing, and that a stab was all he could manage,which means less damage. He argued and wouldn't let it go. I finally got my sabre, brought him into the basement, which had a 7' ceiling near the furnace room, and told him to try and slash with it. Needless to say that the ceiling prevented any slash from connecting. Props to the rescue.:cheerleader:

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 22, 2016, 12:36:53 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893521
It was the bit where the protagonists are being chased around the place, before they're captured. And yes, we got en eyeful of sacrifices to the Worm Lord; not that particular one, though.


Cool. I bet that was fun and scary at the same time. Those sacrifices must have been very graphic judging from what you have told us about Phil's story telling ability. Any anecdotal reports that you can share?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 22, 2016, 12:55:43 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893514


1It's considered polite to give the owners a little present, mostly 'cause you want to be on good terms with them - and also to make sure that they will open the door when you come running back in panic... :)

2Yes! That's my Missus' suit. She looks sooooo cute in it - like a little tank (or tankette, if you prefer) all armored up in stainless steel. The scales are actually Navy surplus lifeboat mirrors we picked up for cheap at the scrap yard. I made the helmet and mask; she did everything else. You should see her Temple sword!

3She had a Horokangai PC, one of the guards at the Temple of Ksarul out past Hekellu. The black-and-silver triangular trim and the orange trim shows that she's a worshipper of Lord Vimuhla. Phil got to see this suit, and was pretty amazed.
.


1. Players often forget that they have to get out with the loot, or their lives. A locked door in front of you when being chased by baddies sucks.

2. Tremendous job on both suits.:hatsoff: I just don't see enough of this stuff, as I'm not a convention goer.

3. I'm not sure I follow you. Was she a worshiper of Vihmuhla and Ksaral? Is this possible for a Temple guard, or people in general? :confused:
A Horokangai?  I'm not familiar with this term.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 22, 2016, 01:03:34 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893517
You're welcome; I'm just reporting what I know. :)

1. I'd agree with that estimate. There is literally nothing in the files about the process that led to EPT; the first thing we have is the green-cover playtest edition, although I have heard rumors of a typed manuscript being out there somewhere that was mooted as being part of the box of papers that "Beyond This Point Be Dragons" was found in. The three of them were very close-mouthed about how EPT came to be, but then I was asking after The Great Lawsuit had gotten underway, and they were just not in a talkative mood. Can't blame them, really...

2. I have a bathroom scale, and I know how to use it... :)


1. Bah! Humbug! Grumble, grumble, grumble...

2. Badum Bum. Take my scale, please!  I take it everywhere, but it finds its way back.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 22, 2016, 01:15:20 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893525
It was, indeed. Lord Gamalu is, if you wanted my personal opinion, a fathead.

Being a player, one of the upstate New York crowd, he got the bright idea that he should help the Livyani invade the Tsolei Isles. The Imperium was not as enthusiastic, but to keep him happy (and keep his money coming in) we got 'volunteered' to wander out there and 'advise' the Livyani on how to do things.

The whole thing was supposed to be a big secret, so of course everybody on the planet was in on it. We'd show up in Mu'uglavya, for example, and get the run-around until they figured out that we were The Secret Mission, and after that is all smooth sailing.

It got to the point where I used some spare figures to make a set of banners, done in my best 'circus' typefonts, that said "HERE COMES LORD GAMALU'S SECRET MISSION!" to lead the party, and "THERE GOES LORD GAMALU'S SECRET MISSION!" to be the last thing you saw of us. I added flower-flingers, trumpeters, fan-bearers, drummers, lackeys throwing coins to the crowd, and all the usual stuff you'd expect to see in a Very Important And Very Secret Mission. (These days, you can get a marching band and cheerleaders. Yes, I would have.)

TAAA TAAA TAAARRAAA! ZING! BANG! BOOM! and so on...

Once he got over the initial shock, Phil laughed so hard I thought he was going to puke his Mountain Dew / Old Ahoggya Piss. ("It's what's in the Ahoggya that makes it yellow!") No shame; no shame at all, that's us. :)


This is perfect! I really get the feeling from your accounts that you had as much fun getting one over on Phil as you did adventuring. In fact it seems that often they were part and parcel of the same thing.
I like the circus atmosphere you arranged. A marching band would have been priceless.
Go way boy ya bother me. There's no secret mission. Ignore the man behind the curtain.:)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 22, 2016, 01:52:22 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;893560
*scribbling notes*

If doctrinal reasons don't apply to Chirine ba Kal, they probably don't to others, either. They might be just deluded by, ahem, misinterpretations of the holy texts:)!

That's an excellent way of cutting through red tape. And of course, secrets in front of everybody is so very Lyviani!
Did that get you prestige, as it should;)?


I don't know if it was doctrinal; Phil tended to get farther and farther from any D&D tropes as time went on. I think that as he got more and more confident with the way we respected his world, he felt more and more comfortable with simply letting us get on with living there.

Oh, yes. Discounts from merchants, all the best places to stay, you name it. It got pretty funny, actually.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 22, 2016, 01:53:52 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;893622
Oh OK. I thought the Ito were like the Vriddi, ancient, arrogant, and self important. Not using lineages and such makes perfect sense.

Shemek.


Yep; that's the Itos for you. Vriddi, Itos, they're pretty much just alike. Pains in the ass, for the rest of us... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 22, 2016, 01:56:05 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;893640
Me too. I have been using props forever. I agree with what say about it being "immediate". I recently picked up a toy from the Dollar Store called "Finger Lasers".
They are perfect replicas for Eyes, and they have a bright little LED to provide an   "action effect":D They come 5 to a pack, sacrificed one to my granddaughter, for the greater good,  and was left with four for game use.
Props can also clarify any in game discrepancies, or doubts. I once had a player, who was 6' 2", adamantly maintain that he should get to roll full damage with a falchion while fighting in a 7' high x 5' wide corridor. I explained that it was a slashing/chopping weapon and that he didn't have enough space for a swing, and that a stab was all he could manage,which means less damage. He argued and wouldn't let it go. I finally got my sabre, brought him into the basement, which had a 7' ceiling near the furnace room, and told him to try and slash with it. Needless to say that the ceiling prevented any slash from connecting. Props to the rescue.:cheerleader:

Shemek.


Very cool! Got some of those myself; I have to saw the wooden beads open, strip the guts out of the Led toys, and there we are.

Very familiar with the situation, and the resolution! Wonderful!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 22, 2016, 01:57:48 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;893641
Cool. I bet that was fun and scary at the same time. Those sacrifices must have been very graphic judging from what you have told us about Phil's story telling ability. Any anecdotal reports that you can share?

Shemek.


They were; Phil was also running his Sarku tape. Very, very scary.

I can, and I will; I just have to write them up. I'll get on it, as it's a longer story then will fit here at the moment.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 22, 2016, 02:07:40 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;893648
1. Players often forget that they have to get out with the loot, or their lives. A locked door in front of you when being chased by baddies sucks.

2. Tremendous job on both suits.:hatsoff: I just don't see enough of this stuff, as I'm not a convention goer.

3. I'm not sure I follow you. Was she a worshiper of Vihmuhla and Ksaral? Is this possible for a Temple guard, or people in general? :confused:
A Horokangai?  I'm not familiar with this term.

Shemek


Gronan once set up at the entrance to somebody's dungeon, and collected a toll for leaving the place from passing players. Also offered healing, money-changing, food, and drink. Like a rest stop on the highway, actually... :)

Thank you! We have four 'historical' and two 'new' costumes on the mannequins. Back in the day, there were about twenty of us who built costumes. Just for the fun of it, really; this was back before LARPs had been thought of.

The Horokaingai were worshippers of Lord Vimuhla who were assigned as Lord Ksarul's standard-bearers at the Battle of the Gods on Doromon Plain. When Lord Vimuhla joined the rest of the gods to defeat Ksarul, the Horokaingai stayed true to their salt and continued to fight for Ksarul. So, she's a worshipper of Vimuhla who serves Ksarul. (Lord Vimuhla is considered to be a bit of a 'short-hitter' and a 'party-pooper'. We don't discuss it around the dinner table.)

They still live out east of Hekellu; we found then when we were marching out to Sirsum. My Vriddi troops were a little taken aback to find somebody more fanatically devoted to Vimuhla then they are; it was a culture shock moment.

Since I fought at Dormoron Plain alongside their ancestors, I enjoy a certain prestige with them. Killing a whole lot of Ssu for them didn't hurt relations, either.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 22, 2016, 02:09:42 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;893652
1. Bah! Humbug! Grumble, grumble, grumble...

2. Badum Bum. Take my scale, please!  I take it everywhere, but it finds its way back.

Shemek.


I know the feeling. Getting information about the very early days is hard, especially after the legal stuff happened.

:)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 22, 2016, 02:14:08 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;893660
This is perfect! I really get the feeling from your accounts that you had as much fun getting one over on Phil as you did adventuring. In fact it seems that often they were part and parcel of the same thing.
I like the circus atmosphere you arranged. A marching band would have been priceless.
Go way boy ya bother me. There's no secret mission. Ignore the man behind the curtain.:)


We did - and it worked both ways, as Phil enjoyed getting one over on us. That was how we gamed, back in those days, and a big part of the fun - surprising each other was something we liked doing, and we got a lot of laughs out of it. We did it in our other games, as well; I enjoyed Gronan surprising me with issuing a Panzer I for a game. Lovely little model, and totally useless in North Africa in 1942. Great fun dodging the British, though!

Games are, I thought, supposed to be fun. Maybe I'm just used to a different kind of fun... :confused:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on April 22, 2016, 03:31:40 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893681
Gronan once set up at the entrance to somebody's dungeon, and collected a toll for leaving the place from passing players. Also offered healing, money-changing, food, and drink. Like a rest stop on the highway, actually... :)

That is comically brilliant!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;893681
Since I fought at Dormoron Plain alongside their ancestors, I enjoy a certain prestige with them.


Whaaat?

You fought at Dormoron Plain. On the side of the Doomed Prince.

You can't throw that out without following up!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 22, 2016, 03:32:34 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893675
I don't know if it was doctrinal; Phil tended to get farther and farther from any D&D tropes as time went on. I think that as he got more and more confident with the way we respected his world, he felt more and more comfortable with simply letting us get on with living there.

Oh, yes. Discounts from merchants, all the best places to stay, you name it. It got pretty funny, actually.

Yeah, my point was exactly that the reason was adhering to tropes to begin with. Nothing wrong if you enjoy this trope, but I don't.

"My best room for this...delegation of people who are totally not on a secret mission!"
There was a similar moment from my game, too. And a player wondered how she got to slip out of clan house "unnoticed":).

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;893640

Props can also clarify any in game discrepancies, or doubts. I once had a player, who was 6' 2", adamantly maintain that he should get to roll full damage with a falchion while fighting in a 7' high x 5' wide corridor. I explained that it was a slashing/chopping weapon and that he didn't have enough space for a swing, and that a stab was all he could manage,which means less damage. He argued and wouldn't let it go. I finally got my sabre, brought him into the basement, which had a 7' ceiling near the furnace room, and told him to try and slash with it. Needless to say that the ceiling prevented any slash from connecting. Props to the rescue.:cheerleader:

Shemek.


Quote from: chirine ba kal;893678

Very familiar with the situation, and the resolution! Wonderful!!!


Props are useful, but in this case, I'd allow it.
I'm what would be 6 feet one inch, to use the same measures. When I fence, I am in such a deep crouch, I sometimes look from below in the eyes of a shorter friend. She's five feet tall.
A falchion has a blade that's about two feet more, and in the "tallest" stance, the handle should be below my hairline, angled back. Most of the time, I don't use said stance for cutting from above.
The five feet wide is more of an issue, but most cutting stances the blade is across my body, where I want it to be.
In total, this might be worth a penalty, or a damage reduction, his choice. Though the idea that stabbing is less damage has some bearing, but isn't exactly right.
Of course, I'm not a professional adventurer, thank you very much, maybe they can fight from higher positions efficiently;)!

As for props, one of my first players later told how he thought he can "go wild and tease me freely" when he saw me first. Then, upon arriving in my home, he decided against it. This change of mind coincided with me pulling out a sword and a fighting staff as props:D.
He was a good kid, just liked to tease people.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 22, 2016, 09:19:52 PM
Quote from: Bren;893380

I blame the seminary.



As well you should.  And Archbishop Peter Carnley in particular.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 23, 2016, 07:21:39 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;893703
That is comically brilliant!

Whaaat?

You fought at Dormoron Plain. On the side of the Doomed Prince.

You can't throw that out without following up!


Location, location, location. It's all part of the business plan.

Sorry. Stuff like this gets thrown up by my brain when we mention things. It's like that big warehouse in that movie...

So, anyway, Eyloa the wizard is convinced that he's just as great a sorcerer when a blue fish as he is when human. He wasn't; his lovely long blue fins just didn't work the same. We wind up in a hollow, in what looks like open grassland. While the party breaks out in the usual Fingerpointing and Jeering Committee argument as to who did what wrong, I amble to the crest of the hill to see what might be about. What's about is this huge open plain, covered with masses of everything you can imagine fighting it out. The closest folks look human, and Vimuhla people at that, so I wander on over. They are gathered around a big standard with the emblem of Ksarul on it, and are fighting off literally hordes of things. I lend the good folks of the Flame a hand, bashing and thumping nameless horrors and anything else that gets close. In between inhuman wave attacks, I ask a few polite questions, and find out that I'm with the Horokaingai at Dormoron Plane. After a while, Eyloa tries again, and we're off and running through the Planes of Reality.

A decade later, we run into these folks' descendants, and it's old home week at the temple. Phil was, if nothing else, a devoted taker of notes...

Just another day in the life... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 23, 2016, 07:33:03 AM
From AsenRG:
Yeah, my point was exactly that the reason was adhering to tropes to begin with. Nothing wrong if you enjoy this trope, but I don't.

Understood. It was more fun, the more we got away from the typical 'D&D' play styles that were common at the time.

"My best room for this...delegation of people who are totally not on a secret mission!"
There was a similar moment from my game, too. And a player wondered how she got to slip out of clan house "unnoticed":).


Very much so; and once we got used to the idea, we used it to get the best in everything - once I realized we were on an expense account, things became much more understandable... :)

Props are useful, but in this case, I'd allow it.
I'm what would be 6 feet one inch, to use the same measures. When I fence, I am in such a deep crouch, I sometimes look from below in the eyes of a shorter friend. She's five feet tall.
A falchion has a blade that's about two feet more, and in the "tallest" stance, the handle should be below my hairline, angled back. Most of the time, I don't use said stance for cutting from above.
The five feet wide is more of an issue, but most cutting stances the blade is across my body, where I want it to be.
In total, this might be worth a penalty, or a damage reduction, his choice. Though the idea that stabbing is less damage has some bearing, but isn't exactly right.
Of course, I'm not a professional adventurer, thank you very much, maybe they can fight from higher positions efficiently;)!


Understood. I'm of the opinion that overhand / overhead moves with a falchion are an invitation to somebody like me to give one a quick thrust to the groin; it's a weapon that works well with the usual pivot-from-the-hips broadsword move. Gronan could speak to this better then I can, probably. Same thing with a mace; the 'over the head' pose you see on a lot of miniatures drives me nuts. Keep it moving, and let the mass of the hard do the work.

Stabbing may cause less actual damage, but it's often more fatal. (The Missus used to fence saber; I'm an epee and foil fencer, myself.)

As for props, one of my first players later told how he thought he can "go wild and tease me freely" when he saw me first. Then, upon arriving in my home, he decided against it. This change of mind coincided with me pulling out a sword and a fighting staff as props:D.
He was a good kid, just liked to tease people.


Now, that's funny! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 23, 2016, 07:34:19 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;893747
As well you should.  And Archbishop Peter Carnley in particular.


Chortle. Off to play "Close Action" with Dave Wesely in a bit. I'll let you know how it goes.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on April 23, 2016, 09:21:19 AM
Since various other movies and what not have been mentioned in this thread for inspiration, check out the Pixar short Sanjay's Super Team. I love the Temple imagery and the way the weapons are drawn. I like to think that Warding spells look like when Vishnu blocks blocks all the missiles.

Which reminds me, did anyone ever carry or use a chakram (other than the Silver Halo of Soul Stealing  ;) )?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 23, 2016, 12:58:59 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893679
They were; Phil was also running his Sarku tape. Very, very scary.


That scared the living hell out of us, and I still get goosebumps every time I think of it.

"They come!  They come!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 23, 2016, 01:02:16 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893525

It got to the point where I used some spare figures to make a set of banners, done in my best 'circus' typefonts, that said "HERE COMES LORD GAMALU'S SECRET MISSION!" to lead the party, and "THERE GOES LORD GAMALU'S SECRET MISSION!" to be the last thing you saw of us. I added flower-flingers, trumpeters, fan-bearers, drummers, lackeys throwing coins to the crowd, and all the usual stuff you'd expect to see in a Very Important And Very Secret Mission. (These days, you can get a marching band and cheerleaders. Yes, I would have.)


He really did, folks.  Really and truly, Eagle Scout's Honor.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;893525

TAAA TAAA TAAARRAAA! ZING! BANG! BOOM! and so on...

Once he got over the initial shock, Phil laughed so hard I thought he was going to puke his Mountain Dew / Old Ahoggya Piss. ("It's what's in the Ahoggya that makes it yellow!") No shame; no shame at all, that's us. :)


Gods, we downed a lakeful of that stuff, didn't we.  That and dognuts and ice cream and chocolate sauce and cookies.

Nothing like ten people on a mile-a-minute sugar and caffeine high to make for some wild gaming.
Title: placeholder for now...
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 24, 2016, 02:05:57 AM
I'm just in from an incredible 13 hours with the likes of Dave Wesely and a lot of the old Conflict Simulation Crowd. Longer report tomorrow; it's been one of the very best days in gaming and friendship that I've ever had in my long and adventurous life. :jaw-dropping:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 24, 2016, 09:24:15 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893973
I'm just in from an incredible 13 hours with the likes of Dave Wesely and a lot of the old Conflict Simulation Crowd. Longer report tomorrow; it's been one of the very best days in gaming and friendship that I've ever had in my long and adventurous life. :jaw-dropping:
We can be happy for you, while still being envious, can't we.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 24, 2016, 09:30:38 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893973
I'm just in from an incredible 13 hours with the likes of Dave Wesely and a lot of the old Conflict Simulation Crowd. Longer report tomorrow; it's been one of the very best days in gaming and friendship that I've ever had in my long and adventurous life. :jaw-dropping:


Glad you had fun, Uncle:)!

I'm sure you'd share the report on your blog, right? After yesterday, I feel I need more tips on Refereeing;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 24, 2016, 09:33:42 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893973
I'm just in from an incredible 13 hours with the likes of Dave Wesely and a lot of the old Conflict Simulation Crowd. Longer report tomorrow; it's been one of the very best days in gaming and friendship that I've ever had in my long and adventurous life. :jaw-dropping:


Uncle,

Fantastic!!! It is always good to hear, when one enjoys themself doing what one loves!!! Looking forward to the report...Be well.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 24, 2016, 10:04:52 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;893973
I'm just in from an incredible 13 hours with the likes of Dave Wesely and a lot of the old Conflict Simulation Crowd. Longer report tomorrow; it's been one of the very best days in gaming and friendship that I've ever had in my long and adventurous life. :jaw-dropping:


Sounds fun. Looking forward to the debriefing. Hopefully you were victorious, and did the  Imperium and the Flame Lord proud.:)

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 24, 2016, 04:00:31 PM
Quote from: Bren;894022
We can be happy for you, while still being envious, can't we.


Two words:  GaryCon.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 24, 2016, 04:15:14 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;894101
Two words:  GaryCon.
Gary Con would be two words. :p  And that's almost a whole year away.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 24, 2016, 04:31:05 PM
Three beers, dammit.

And if you come to GaryCon you can collect.  Yes it's almost a year away, but alas, it's not cheap, so start saving now.  The total for the trip was just about $500 and I didn't need to fly.  Room and board for the con itself, my share, was about $330, and $65 for a badge (but as a referee I didn't need to pay for that).

But if you want that sort of Old School wargaming with those Old School wargamers, that would be the place.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 24, 2016, 10:42:20 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;893841
Since various other movies and what not have been mentioned in this thread for inspiration, check out the Pixar short Sanjay's Super Team. I love the Temple imagery and the way the weapons are drawn. I like to think that Warding spells look like when Vishnu blocks blocks all the missiles.

Which reminds me, did anyone ever carry or use a chakram (other than the Silver Halo of Soul Stealing  ;) )?


Great film choice! :) It's fun, and I think you're right about the 'warding' spell.

Nope. Nothing that exotic. The "Xena" series hadn't been done yet, more's the pity, as I would have liked to see what Phil could have done with it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 24, 2016, 11:02:49 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;894101
Two words:  GaryCon.


Two words: Victor Raymond

For what it would cost me to go down to Lake Geneva for the weekend, I could pay you to come to Minneapolis and kick my balls down my throat for a week. I'd certainly enjoy that a lot more and Luke, Ernie, and the girls wouldn't have to deal the nonsense from that little carbuncle.

And there are a whole lot of new micro-breweries around here, too! :)

Now, having gotten that out of my system, I do agree with you about Gary Con - for anybody who wants to learn about the fun we managed to have all those years ago, it's the place to go. Worth it? You betcha. Just not for me, sorry to have to say.

Now, on to the good stuff... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 24, 2016, 11:06:43 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;894025
Glad you had fun, Uncle:)!

I'm sure you'd share the report on your blog, right? After yesterday, I feel I need more tips on Refereeing;).


Well, I did, and you can ask away; I'm having issues with Blogger, tonight, due to the weather here, so the full report may get posted tomorrow...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 24, 2016, 11:12:47 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;894108
Three beers, dammit.

And if you come to GaryCon you can collect.  Yes it's almost a year away, but alas, it's not cheap, so start saving now.  The total for the trip was just about $500 and I didn't need to fly.  Room and board for the con itself, my share, was about $330, and $65 for a badge (but as a referee I didn't need to pay for that).

But if you want that sort of Old School wargaming with those Old School wargamers, that would be the place.


If I may, I'd like to strongly second this. It's a good, solid convention, and I think that it is probably the only place where you can get a feel for the bubbling stew of creativity that was our gaming life in the 1970s and early 1980s. The events are a wonder and a joy.

Is it worth the cost? Yes, it is. If it weren't for the stupid people tricks, I'd be down there like a shot every year and running the very best games that I could muster,  three times a day. I'd have to be cosseted like a prize race horse, but I can do it - I have the games, the gear, and the attitude.
Title: A Short Report
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 24, 2016, 11:58:43 PM
So, anyway, yesterday was a exquisite day. Right up there with July 22nd, 1990, the day I married the Missus.

I had been feeling pretty cranky, as I had a very bad flare-up of the current attack of gout mid-week; I woke up at five in the morning in agony, and had to crawl down the stairs from our bedroom on the second floor to the medicine cabinet on the first - doing on my hands and knees was no treat, but I managed. Couldn't go into work that night, but that is what paid sick leave is for.

Got an invite from a local gent who runs the naval game "Close Action" to play in his game at the local miniature game club's quarterly micro-convention, which was seconded by none other then the redoubtable Dave Wesely - yes, that Dave Wesely. The good Major applied all of his forceful personality to persuade me to come and play, so I did. Had to get up at a silly hour to make the nine a. m. opening, but we got to playing on time.

The basic scenario was that the two of us French players had to get a captured ship back from the British player and his ship. Set in the mouth of Boston harbor during the American Revolution, it would be a challenge to play out, especially as we had two 32-gun frigates, and he had a 50-gun ship; it was like two destroyers going up against a heavy cruiser. The only good news was that we had a 50-gunner of our own, that the British had badly shot up but that was available as support.

I'd never played this game before, so my experienced colleague was our senior captain, and ran both his frigate and the 50. I had my frigate, and the Major had both the British 50 and the prize ship that we were supposed to recapture. (Oh, yeah, right, Your French Majesty, and what other miracles do you want us to come up with today?) We got out our packs of Galoises, bottles of Pernod, bags of baguettes, and prepared to die like men.

We waded in, and managed to get the weather gauge on the British; since he had to get to the open seas with the prize, and we were blocking the channel, we had him cold. A very tight little battle ensued, with my commander getting stuck in at close quarters and me using my faster and more nimble ship to dart in and out of the British guns' range and get in some nasty hits. My commander lost his frigate to the British 50, but his 50 recaptured the prize. My frigate was still in good shape, and I got a lot of praise for my ability to handle my ship: "Are you sure you've never played this game?"

At the end of the game, the GM asked me why I hadn't closed in to the melee; most players would have. The Major interrupted, and told the GM that as far as the Royal Navy was concerned, I had won the game for the French; yes, he'd lost the prize ship, and captured one of our frigates, but as I was still blocking the channel and had the weather gauge, it would be impossible for him to keep the new prize and it'd be very tough for him to get his 50 out to open sea.

It was a great game; well run, lots of fun, and a wonderful chance to talk with the Major - my fellow captain said he'd learned more about the Age of Sail in this one game then he'd ever been able to before.

Lots of other cool games running; I took lots of photos and I'll have them on the blog. One guy was running a game using 54mm figures!!!

The best part of the day came when I gave my commander a ride, and got invited in for water and a sandwich.I was there for the next six hours, as a lot of my old gaming friends were there, and I got to tell all sorts of stories. It was simply wonderful. I felt like I'd gone back in time some thirty years, to all those Saturday game sessions and the dinners afterwards.

It was glorious. And amazing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 25, 2016, 10:17:07 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;894191


It was glorious. And amazing.


Sounds like a great time was had by all. I'm envious.;)

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 25, 2016, 10:21:28 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;894191
So, anyway, yesterday was a exquisite day. Right up there with July 22nd, 1990, the day I married the Missus.

I had been feeling pretty cranky, as I had a very bad flare-up of the current attack of gout mid-week; I woke up at five in the morning in agony, and had to crawl down the stairs from our bedroom on the second floor to the medicine cabinet on the first - doing on my hands and knees was no treat, but I managed. Couldn't go into work that night, but that is what paid sick leave is for.

Got an invite from a local gent who runs the naval game "Close Action" to play in his game at the local miniature game club's quarterly micro-convention, which was seconded by none other then the redoubtable Dave Wesely - yes, that Dave Wesely. The good Major applied all of his forceful personality to persuade me to come and play, so I did. Had to get up at a silly hour to make the nine a. m. opening, but we got to playing on time.

The basic scenario was that the two of us French players had to get a captured ship back from the British player and his ship. Set in the mouth of Boston harbor during the American Revolution, it would be a challenge to play out, especially as we had two 32-gun frigates, and he had a 50-gun ship; it was like two destroyers going up against a heavy cruiser. The only good news was that we had a 50-gunner of our own, that the British had badly shot up but that was available as support.

I'd never played this game before, so my experienced colleague was our senior captain, and ran both his frigate and the 50. I had my frigate, and the Major had both the British 50 and the prize ship that we were supposed to recapture. (Oh, yeah, right, Your French Majesty, and what other miracles do you want us to come up with today?) We got out our packs of Galoises, bottles of Pernod, bags of baguettes, and prepared to die like men.

We waded in, and managed to get the weather gauge on the British; since he had to get to the open seas with the prize, and we were blocking the channel, we had him cold. A very tight little battle ensued, with my commander getting stuck in at close quarters and me using my faster and more nimble ship to dart in and out of the British guns' range and get in some nasty hits. My commander lost his frigate to the British 50, but his 50 recaptured the prize. My frigate was still in good shape, and I got a lot of praise for my ability to handle my ship: "Are you sure you've never played this game?"

At the end of the game, the GM asked me why I hadn't closed in to the melee; most players would have. The Major interrupted, and told the GM that as far as the Royal Navy was concerned, I had won the game for the French; yes, he'd lost the prize ship, and captured one of our frigates, but as I was still blocking the channel and had the weather gauge, it would be impossible for him to keep the new prize and it'd be very tough for him to get his 50 out to open sea.

It was a great game; well run, lots of fun, and a wonderful chance to talk with the Major - my fellow captain said he'd learned more about the Age of Sail in this one game then he'd ever been able to before.

Lots of other cool games running; I took lots of photos and I'll have them on the blog. One guy was running a game using 54mm figures!!!

The best part of the day came when I gave my commander a ride, and got invited in for water and a sandwich.I was there for the next six hours, as a lot of my old gaming friends were there, and I got to tell all sorts of stories. It was simply wonderful. I felt like I'd gone back in time some thirty years, to all those Saturday game sessions and the dinners afterwards.

It was glorious. And amazing.


Was this ReCon, by any chance?  Attendance had dropped rather badly a couple of years ago, I'd be delighted if it were healthy again.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 25, 2016, 02:20:59 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;894257
Sounds like a great time was had by all. I'm envious.;)

Shemek.


It was. I haven't had a day like this in literally decades. The only thing that compares with it was my wedding day and the EPT game I ran last year at Gary Con with Gronan as a player. That game was right up there with the Great Mos Eisley Spaceport Raid and the more recent When Darkness Fell.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 25, 2016, 02:41:46 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;894261
Was this ReCon, by any chance?  Attendance had dropped rather badly a couple of years ago, I'd be delighted if it were healthy again.


It was. The Minnesota Miniature Gaming Society folks had moved the event to the Geek Partnership Society rooms (the same people who run Convergence) a while back - maybe at the time you mention - and from what I can tell stopped doing a lot of advertising and promotion of the event. They also went to a quarterly schedule.

The venue, I have to say, is not ideal. The building is the same one we looked at about five years ago for our gaming, back when the Geek Partnership was getting started, as a way to support both them and us. (Sadly, our relationship with the group was ruined when one of the 'senior' people in my group went to the building and made a total pest of herself; she objected to the place on religious grounds, and got herself thrown out for being rude to the other tenants.) We had a rock band next to us for part of the morning; the sheet-rock walls didn't stop the noise at all.

However, there are plenty of good things; the place is clean, well-lit, and plenty of tables and chairs. The event is very informally run, and there are some truly wonderful games on offer. The MMGS is also interested in running 'family games'; the WWII game in back of us has an eight-year old who would turn cartwheels when not moving her Shermans. The kids playing the Star Wars X-wing game were also having a lot of fun.

I was asked if I was still doing miniatures, and when I allowed that I was, was invited to run a little something at future events. This was very strongly seconded by Maj. Wesely and others, who remember my games with a lot of fondness (and trepidation!) and would love to see what I've managed to come up with after thirty years of practice. We'll have to see; this is not the only invitation I've gotten; several other venues have asked me to run games in their establishments. I'll have to think about it; I'm just not in very good shape, these days.

The French and Indian Wars game with the 54 mm figures and the dense forest was a joy to behold. And it also points out that for some of us, there is no 'gap' between 'wargaming' and 'rpgs'...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 25, 2016, 02:51:34 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;894108
Three beers, dammit.
OK. It's on my radar. I'm not certain where I'll be next March, but I'll try to get there. Hopefully you will talk it up again when signups for the event is closer.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;894183
For what it would cost me to go down to Lake Geneva for the weekend, I could pay you to come to Minneapolis and kick my balls down my throat for a week.
Which just proves that there certainly is no accounting for taste.

Allow me to share an idea you might enjoy. For my 50th birthday my wife hosted Mark-Con: a weekend roleplaying game event where we invited a bunch of friends including my surviving gaming buddies from the 1970s to come stay at our house and play. We even arranged airport pickups and drop-offs for the out of state folks. My wife went around to some local game stores and they donated stuff for some goody prize bags and rather than expecting gifts for my birthday (other than people coming) we gave out black polo-shirts with the Mark-Con dragon logo in a shiny red. It was great fun, I got to see some friends I hadn't seen in years, we played some great games, and it probably didn't cost me more than going to a con.

Chirine-Con 2017!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 25, 2016, 02:57:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;894191
So, anyway, yesterday was a exquisite day. Right up there with July 22nd, 1990, the day I married the Missus.

I had been feeling pretty cranky, as I had a very bad flare-up of the current attack of gout mid-week; I woke up at five in the morning in agony, and had to crawl down the stairs from our bedroom on the second floor to the medicine cabinet on the first - doing on my hands and knees was no treat, but I managed. Couldn't go into work that night, but that is what paid sick leave is for.

Got an invite from a local gent who runs the naval game "Close Action" to play in his game at the local miniature game club's quarterly micro-convention, which was seconded by none other then the redoubtable Dave Wesely - yes, that Dave Wesely. The good Major applied all of his forceful personality to persuade me to come and play, so I did. Had to get up at a silly hour to make the nine a. m. opening, but we got to playing on time.

The basic scenario was that the two of us French players had to get a captured ship back from the British player and his ship. Set in the mouth of Boston harbor during the American Revolution, it would be a challenge to play out, especially as we had two 32-gun frigates, and he had a 50-gun ship; it was like two destroyers going up against a heavy cruiser. The only good news was that we had a 50-gunner of our own, that the British had badly shot up but that was available as support.

I'd never played this game before, so my experienced colleague was our senior captain, and ran both his frigate and the 50. I had my frigate, and the Major had both the British 50 and the prize ship that we were supposed to recapture. (Oh, yeah, right, Your French Majesty, and what other miracles do you want us to come up with today?) We got out our packs of Galoises, bottles of Pernod, bags of baguettes, and prepared to die like men.

We waded in, and managed to get the weather gauge on the British; since he had to get to the open seas with the prize, and we were blocking the channel, we had him cold. A very tight little battle ensued, with my commander getting stuck in at close quarters and me using my faster and more nimble ship to dart in and out of the British guns' range and get in some nasty hits. My commander lost his frigate to the British 50, but his 50 recaptured the prize. My frigate was still in good shape, and I got a lot of praise for my ability to handle my ship: "Are you sure you've never played this game?"

At the end of the game, the GM asked me why I hadn't closed in to the melee; most players would have. The Major interrupted, and told the GM that as far as the Royal Navy was concerned, I had won the game for the French; yes, he'd lost the prize ship, and captured one of our frigates, but as I was still blocking the channel and had the weather gauge, it would be impossible for him to keep the new prize and it'd be very tough for him to get his 50 out to open sea.

It was a great game; well run, lots of fun, and a wonderful chance to talk with the Major - my fellow captain said he'd learned more about the Age of Sail in this one game then he'd ever been able to before.

Lots of other cool games running; I took lots of photos and I'll have them on the blog. One guy was running a game using 54mm figures!!!

The best part of the day came when I gave my commander a ride, and got invited in for water and a sandwich.I was there for the next six hours, as a lot of my old gaming friends were there, and I got to tell all sorts of stories. It was simply wonderful. I felt like I'd gone back in time some thirty years, to all those Saturday game sessions and the dinners afterwards.

It was glorious. And amazing.


That's a great day, Uncle:)! Glad you had so much fun, and taught the new guard a few things.

Also, Bren's idea deserves attention, IMO;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 25, 2016, 05:12:12 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;894325


The French and Indian Wars game with the 54 mm figures and the dense forest was a joy to behold. And it also points out that for some of us, there is no 'gap' between 'wargaming' and 'rpgs'...


Wow. :eek: That's an amazing game board. I'd love to do something like that, but set in Tekumel. Some Ssu creeping through a forest...

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 25, 2016, 05:53:47 PM
Not sure if this is the right place to post this. I recently came across this in another thread on this forum. After having read Chirine's account of his most excellent weekend of gaming I thought I would share it here.

"That's why I don't play with gamers anymore. I've got my good friends that I played D&D with in school...and I've got whatever nongamers I recruit. If I can't pull a group together, then I just don'tplay. No gaming is better than bad gaming in my book."

The quote was in reference to 3rd ed being, essentially, the game of choice for assholes. Now I have no opinion about 3rd ed.D&D, have never played or even looked at the books, but I like the sentiment expressed about gaming in general. This is exactly where I'm at these days, and unless I'm mistaken so are a lot of other people. Anybody else feel this way?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 25, 2016, 07:06:43 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;894383
Not sure if this is the right place to post this. I recently came across this in another thread on this forum. After having read Chirine's account of his most excellent weekend of gaming I thought I would share it here.

"That's why I don't play with gamers anymore. I've got my good friends that I played D&D with in school...and I've got whatever nongamers I recruit. If I can't pull a group together, then I just don'tplay. No gaming is better than bad gaming in my book."

The quote was in reference to 3rd ed being, essentially, the game of choice for assholes. Now I have no opinion about 3rd ed.D&D, have never played or even looked at the books, but I like the sentiment expressed about gaming in general. This is exactly where I'm at these days, and unless I'm mistaken so are a lot of other people. Anybody else feel this way?

Shemek.

That's more or less what I do, too. Though I've also got non-gamers* that I introduced to RPGs and still like to play with, on top of the complete non-gamers and the gamers I've known for a while.
*Using "Gamer" as a personality type, here.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 25, 2016, 08:13:41 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;894383
Not sure if this is the right place to post this. I recently came across this in another thread on this forum. After having read Chirine's account of his most excellent weekend of gaming I thought I would share it here.

"That's why I don't play with gamers anymore. I've got my good friends that I played D&D with in school...and I've got whatever nongamers I recruit. If I can't pull a group together, then I just don'tplay. No gaming is better than bad gaming in my book."

The quote was in reference to 3rd ed being, essentially, the game of choice for assholes. Now I have no opinion about 3rd ed.D&D, have never played or even looked at the books, but I like the sentiment expressed about gaming in general. This is exactly where I'm at these days, and unless I'm mistaken so are a lot of other people. Anybody else feel this way?

Shemek.


Well, Chirine and I have LONG been advocates of "don't play with assholes."

Some gamers are assholes, some nongamers are assholes.  GaryCon is loaded with old grognard gamers, which is why it's fun.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 25, 2016, 08:17:39 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;894320
It was. I haven't had a day like this in literally decades. The only thing that compares with it was my wedding day and the EPT game I ran last year at Gary Con with Gronan as a player. That game was right up there with the Great Mos Eisley Spaceport Raid and the more recent When Darkness Fell.


I'm truly glad to hear that.  Have they gotten more space?  Last time I went there they only had four games going and it was still a bit crowded.

I really, really hope one day (soon, neither one of us is getting any younger) you can just come to GaryCon and PLAY.  To hell with running anything.  Play TRACTICS with Mike Reese, author and retired USA treadhead.  Play "Cavaliers and Roundheads" with Jeff Perren, author and unabashed Royalist.  Play "Don't Give Up The Ship" with Mike Carr, co-author and all around good guy.  And if we're lucky we can get Bill Hoyt and Dave Wesley playing DGUTS too!  :D

As my brother Tim said some years ago, "If Tim's not getting rich and Tim's not having fun, Tim's not going to do it!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 28, 2016, 10:32:11 AM
I just wanted to ask, since I noticed that Phil has mentioned not only Tekumel is inhabitable, and planets are associated with gods...
What are the odds of the "paradises" of the gods being physical places that can be located via, say, space travel? What are the odds of (some of ) them being in the same dimension?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 28, 2016, 02:12:19 PM
Quote from: Bren;894328
OK. It's on my radar. I'm not certain where I'll be next March, but I'll try to get there. Hopefully you will talk it up again when signups for the event is closer.

Which just proves that there certainly is no accounting for taste.

Allow me to share an idea you might enjoy. For my 50th birthday my wife hosted Mark-Con: a weekend roleplaying game event where we invited a bunch of friends including my surviving gaming buddies from the 1970s to come stay at our house and play. We even arranged airport pickups and drop-offs for the out of state folks. My wife went around to some local game stores and they donated stuff for some goody prize bags and rather than expecting gifts for my birthday (other than people coming) we gave out black polo-shirts with the Mark-Con dragon logo in a shiny red. It was great fun, I got to see some friends I hadn't seen in years, we played some great games, and it probably didn't cost me more than going to a con.

Chirine-Con 2017!


Oh, yes! We did something like this back a few years ago, where we had a house full of guests in a sort of micro-convention. There are a number of these, here in the Twin Cities, and it's kind of an established tradition.

Being a good staff officer, I have contingency plans for this kind of event on file. Case One assumes up to twenty-five people attending, Case Two twenty-five to seventy-five, and Case Three seventy-five to over a hundred. One assumes being held here at the house, and is based on our successful micro-con; Two and Three are based on my decades of event production, and use (in the 'a' variants) the FFG Event Center or (in the 'b' variants) a local hotel - depends on what kind of deal could be negotiated with the hotel and the number of people needing hotel space. I update the files annually, to reflect changes on what I have available in terms of pre-built games and show production assets.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 28, 2016, 02:23:09 PM
Yes. Geek Partnership got the large room next door back, so we had eight tables going with plenty of room.

Understood - and I do agree with you! Gary Con is a great convention, with lots of great games. In my case, though, there are the numbers:

Hotel @ $160 / night = $800
Fuel for van = $200
Food for one = $200
Badge = $100
Health care aide for one week for disabled wife @ $75 / day = $375
Rental car for disabled wife for one week = $150
Total cost:     $2,300

That, unfortunately, is my disposable income for an entire year. Vacation time I get, so no issue there. Bottom line is that for this kind of money, I need to have a lot of reason to go.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 28, 2016, 02:24:31 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;894534
I just wanted to ask, since I noticed that Phil has mentioned not only Tekumel is inhabitable, and planets are associated with gods...
What are the odds of the "paradises" of the gods being physical places that can be located via, say, space travel? What are the odds of (some of ) them being in the same dimension?

I don;t know about getting there by ship, but you can get there by Nexus point. So, yes, they are locations, but just not in Tekumel's dimension.
Title: Lost post and reply
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 28, 2016, 02:33:53 PM
I think we lost a post by Big Andy in the update; he asked about LCD projectors and how I used one at Gary Con, and if Phil ever did that.

Phil never used anything like that; it hadn't been invented, yet. I used it, as I have other large display devices, to keep game play moving. I've watched all too many games at conventions where the very unhappy GM was trying to help the party's mapper do the mapping, and everybody else was left sitting around for hours. I used first a huge CRT in the game room, then a projection display, and now a 40 LCD display to simply show the players where they are - it's then up to them to work up any maps or anything. It's a lot faster and easier on everyone, and keeps the game moving at the Arnesonian break-neck pace that people seem to like.

I actually had four LCD projectors at Gary Con; one primary, one back-up, and two utter desperation units. Having worked in the show production business for decades, I have a lot of this kind of thing lying around, and I figure that I might as well get some use out of it. Projectors are a little hard to use, being dependent on the amount of ambient room light, and I really had wanted an active display like an LCD screen. I am very lucky; the Missus found me a 40" LCD and a 32" LCD that I had planned to take to Gary Con this year, as well as the stands we needed at the convention. And for dirt cheap, too! :) She really is the Queen of the Internet!!! :) Industrial surplus is your friend!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 28, 2016, 02:53:12 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;894183
Two words: Victor Raymond

Now, on to the good stuff... :)


Chirine,

I have to say this, and I'm not stirring the pot, but I think this guy is your personal Pariah God. It seems that he just keeps getting in your hair, and wants nothing more than to destroy Chirine's personal Bethorm. Or, maybe, just make it uninhabitable. :p

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on April 28, 2016, 02:54:27 PM
I kept waiting for my post to show back up. Guess it was swallowed by an Akho.

Part of my question about the projection: Do you share underworld/dungeon maps normally (ie non-convention games) or is that only something you do for cons? Or just for the biggies like Jakalla? Did the Professor do this? I have always seen it done where the gm had the map and the party made their own but have wondered if this would be a better system.

Did the Professor map any other Underworlds? Maybe not as extensively but some. How many did you guys hit? Was there one that was mentioned with fear/awe that you didn't get around to visiting?

I know the Foundation is supposed to be releasing the Jakkallan Underworld this year, so I guess this is semi pertinent.

And kudos to the Missus. Too many people don't look hard enough but there are plenty of places to find good stuff for gaming, and home for that matter.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 28, 2016, 09:59:59 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;894565
Yes. Geek Partnership got the large room next door back, so we had eight tables going with plenty of room.

Understood - and I do agree with you! Gary Con is a great convention, with lots of great games. In my case, though, there are the numbers:

Hotel @ $160 / night = $800
Fuel for van = $200
Food for one = $200
Badge = $100
Health care aide for one week for disabled wife @ $75 / day = $375
Rental car for disabled wife for one week = $150
Total cost:     $2,300

That, unfortunately, is my disposable income for an entire year. Vacation time I get, so no issue there. Bottom line is that for this kind of money, I need to have a lot of reason to go.

Well, I can certainly understand your reasoning.  For that matter, ALL events are getting expensive.  I just mailed a check for slightly over $400 for a railroad historical society convention, and that's just the registration fees!  (insurance for touring rail sites has gone astronomical.)  The NMRA convention is now a full week, and the hotels ain't cheap.

I have to wonder, could somebody even RUN something like Minnesota Campaign or even U-Con any more?  For those who weren't there, they were pretty much 'Here are some rooms where folks are running games, and some other rooms where we have open gaming."  Hotels, food, travel, etc, were all up to the individuals and we felt no real obligation to do more than provide the venue and games.  It seems like people expect a lot more dogs and ponies these days.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 28, 2016, 10:01:39 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;894566
I don;t know about getting there by ship, but you can get there by Nexus point. So, yes, they are locations, but just not in Tekumel's dimension.

You can get there by spaceship -- sorry, "rocket ship" -- only if it's funny.

(Gary Gygax later said that Robilar's giant trebuchet built by his sage, Herb, would have worked to get him to Barsoom.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 28, 2016, 10:41:21 PM
Chirine,

I was recently reading an interview with Phil in one of the old Eye of all Seeing Wonders, and he mentioned an era on Tekumel called the Age of the Magicians. I don't recall coming across this period before. Any info that you could share with us?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 28, 2016, 11:14:11 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;894566
I don;t know about getting there by ship, but you can get there by Nexus point. So, yes, they are locations, but just not in Tekumel's dimension.
I'd always thought the Nexus points are for "spiritual travel". Guess the "Notes from the TNG" tales have mislead me there:)
Ah well, but then would they be accessible from the ancient Humanspace? Or would you need to travel to yet another dimension?

Follow-up question, can you make an educated guess what would be the treatment of foreign people with pale skin and blond hair in Tsolyanu? What would happen to a small group of such, apart from probably meeting people from a certain profession that's not invited to the good parties;)?
I'm wondering what would happen to NPCs that stumble into a portal...:D

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;894657
You can get there by spaceship -- sorry, "rocket ship" -- only if it's funny.

(Gary Gygax later said that Robilar's giant trebuchet built by his sage, Herb, would have worked to get him to Barsoom.)
I understand that logic, but I'm not sure whether I share it entirely;).
Besides, it's not about the PCs getting there. Not yet, at least, though I kinda know how my players think:p.
However, it's about what they would find there if and when they reach it. And for NPC travel, I believe "whether it's funny" shouldn't be a factor in the decision:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 29, 2016, 02:31:01 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;894573
Chirine,

I have to say this, and I'm not stirring the pot, but I think this guy is your personal Pariah God. It seems that he just keeps getting in your hair, and wants nothing more than to destroy Chirine's personal Bethorm. Or, maybe, just make it uninhabitable. :p

Shemek.


It's funny you put it that way; he's often referred to me as "the Fourth Pariah God". He's my personal boil on my buttocks; I've had to swallow his lies, slanders, and innuendos for decades, all "for the good of Tekumel". I once asked him why he keeps badmouthing me to people, and he replied, quite honestly, that "It's what we'd do if you were in our position." When I reminded him that I don;t play those sorts of political intrigues, he told me that his reason for hating me so much was that "Everything you choose to do, you do really well; you make me look bad, when you do this." He's got some really difficult issues of personal insecurity, sense of self-worth, and self esteem; he tries to compensate for them by running down and ruining anyone who he feels is a threat to him. I'm not the only one he's done this to; I'm just more up-front about it.

And I used to be pretty tolerant and laid-back about his antics, too; it was after he started in on my wife and daughters - non-combatants, in all of this - that the gloves came off and it became bare-knuckle. His problem is basically that he can't keep his mouth shut, and will say anything to anyone that he thinks they will want to hear. It's gotten him into an awful lot of trouble over the years.

I do feel sorry for the guy. It's been pretty sad to watch, over the decades.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 29, 2016, 02:53:53 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;894576
I kept waiting for my post to show back up. Guess it was swallowed by an Akho.

Part of my question about the projection: Do you share underworld/dungeon maps normally (ie non-convention games) or is that only something you do for cons? Or just for the biggies like Jakalla? Did the Professor do this? I have always seen it done where the gm had the map and the party made their own but have wondered if this would be a better system.

Did the Professor map any other Underworlds? Maybe not as extensively but some. How many did you guys hit? Was there one that was mentioned with fear/awe that you didn't get around to visiting?

I know the Foundation is supposed to be releasing the Jakkallan Underworld this year, so I guess this is semi pertinent.

And kudos to the Missus. Too many people don't look hard enough but there are plenty of places to find good stuff for gaming, and home for that matter.


Right, then! I normally share maps at convention games, as it saves a lot of time and energy. In-house campaign games, not so much, although I do it if the party has gotten hopelessly lost. Again, this is supposed to be a fun pastime. Phil, in common with most of the GMs of his time, did not share the map - assuming he had one. If we wanted a map, we had to make it, ad do it in real time; he would not stop to let the mapper catch up, so the party had to buy time when needed. It's a play style, more then anything else.

Not really, no. He did a map for one location that we visited out past Sirsum, but other then that he didn't seem to need them. I wondered about this for several years, and then finally divined his method in a glorious game session. The party had gotten lost again, and were just starting the usual PC 'discussion' about which way to go, when I spoke up and said "Passageway ends in a 'T', left one goes out to the first floor of a tower, right out to a courtyard." Phil gave me this really, really filthy look, and we got going again; things were exactly as I had described them. Much mystification in the party, until Phil finally told me to "Pass it up here, please." The rest of the party was even more mystified as the sheet of paper went up the table to him and there was much weeping and wailing - until Phil opened the folded sheet, and showed them the map of the Red Fort in Delhi I'd copied from one in the collection of the Ames South Asian Library.

The Secret was that I'd guessed that since Phil never seemed to need maps, and always knew so much about the places he was describing,  he was using his memories of places he'd been in South Asia. I recognized the description of where we were, and knew which way to go... :)

Nope. We saw them all, at various times, and they were usually pretty nasty. Hekellu was maybe the worst, as the water table is pretty high what with the city being right on the lake. Soggy. Soggy, and infested with really odd inhabitants...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 29, 2016, 03:02:54 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;894655
Well, I can certainly understand your reasoning.  For that matter, ALL events are getting expensive.  I just mailed a check for slightly over $400 for a railroad historical society convention, and that's just the registration fees!  (insurance for touring rail sites has gone astronomical.)  The NMRA convention is now a full week, and the hotels ain't cheap.

I have to wonder, could somebody even RUN something like Minnesota Campaign or even U-Con any more?  For those who weren't there, they were pretty much 'Here are some rooms where folks are running games, and some other rooms where we have open gaming."  Hotels, food, travel, etc, were all up to the individuals and we felt no real obligation to do more than provide the venue and games.  It seems like people expect a lot more dogs and ponies these days.


Oh, I can sympathize with that! You would faint at the cost of the insurance cover my model railway club has to pay for our annual exhibition! :(

Um, I don't know. The big limiting factor is the cost of exhibition space; there is precious little of that left here in the Twin Cities. Most spaces are attached to hotels, which will be more then happy to give you the space for free - if you agree to book 'X' number of hotel room nights. That's where they make their money - as well as on food functions - so that's what they want to see out of anybody booking floor space. It's why FFG's Event Center is so attractive; a 100' x 100' room, with attached cafe (with micro-brewery beer on tap, four kinds) and clean restrooms at a moderate cost. The costs of running an event, of any kind, have gone through the roof - the overheads are what drive entry costs, to be honest.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 29, 2016, 03:04:31 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;894576

And kudos to the Missus. Too many people don't look hard enough but there are plenty of places to find good stuff for gaming, and home for that matter.


Thank you! She really is the best - giver her a mission, and she keeps worrying away at the problem until she can solve it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 29, 2016, 03:07:42 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;894665
Chirine,

I was recently reading an interview with Phil in one of the old Eye of all Seeing Wonders, and he mentioned an era on Tekumel called the Age of the Magicians. I don't recall coming across this period before. Any info that you could share with us?

Shemek.

It's the historical period overlapping the end of the Latter Times and the beginning of the Empire of Llyan of Tsamra. It's the time when most of the Undying Wizards got their start, and when magic-users - 'magic' having been invented - could do pretty much anything that they wanted to. Think the Wild West with energy bolts and fireballs.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 29, 2016, 03:18:41 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;894668
I'd always thought the Nexus points are for "spiritual travel". Guess the "Notes from the TNG" tales have mislead me there:)
Ah well, but then would they be accessible from the ancient Humanspace? Or would you need to travel to yet another dimension?

Follow-up question, can you make an educated guess what would be the treatment of foreign people with pale skin and blond hair in Tsolyanu? What would happen to a small group of such, apart from probably meeting people from a certain profession that's not invited to the good parties;)?
I'm wondering what would happen to NPCs that stumble into a portal...:D

Well, in our time they were a handy - if very, very unreliable!!! - way to get from Point A to point B without walking. It was Phil's way of telescoping travel time, and of getting us into new adventures, Which is why, usually, I preferred to walk or take a ship.

Well, it's like the two hobbits in Bey Su. (They got really cushy jobs, the little twerps.) Depending on where you drop in, the locals will have wildly different reactions. In a temple complex, the guards will surround the party and they'll be invited to stay for quit a while while the temple gets all the information that they can out of the party. Imperial area, off to the park to go on exhibition - it's what the two hobbits do. Usual city or rural area, probably be taken for demons, and shown the door as fast as possible, provided that nobody gets stupid and violence breaks out. In some enlightened parts of the world, they'll be recognized as adventures and be offered jobs as mercenaries. It's what I did when Captain Harchar showed up with a bunch of Amazons on his ship. (No rude jokes, please; they had their own weapons and armor, so we hired them on the spot.) They were unemployed warriors from this Blackmoor place he kept visiting, and needed the work. Same thing with this guy from someplace called Flanders. he works for the Temple of Avanthe as hired muscle. Nice armor, though; never seen anything like it, myself... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 29, 2016, 03:19:45 AM
There! I think we're all caught up - have I missed anyone?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 29, 2016, 08:51:36 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;894691
I do feel sorry for the guy. It's been pretty sad to watch, over the decades.
If it makes you feel any better, chirine ba kal, I have no idea who that guy is and his name has already been forgotten.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 29, 2016, 10:11:59 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;894695
Oh, I can sympathize with that! You would faint at the cost of the insurance cover my model railway club has to pay for our annual exhibition! :(

Um, I don't know. The big limiting factor is the cost of exhibition space; there is precious little of that left here in the Twin Cities. Most spaces are attached to hotels, which will be more then happy to give you the space for free - if you agree to book 'X' number of hotel room nights. That's where they make their money - as well as on food functions - so that's what they want to see out of anybody booking floor space. It's why FFG's Event Center is so attractive; a 100' x 100' room, with attached cafe (with micro-brewery beer on tap, four kinds) and clean restrooms at a moderate cost. The costs of running an event, of any kind, have gone through the roof - the overheads are what drive entry costs, to be honest.

Yeah, all this is true.  It's why tickets to ride behind CMST&P 261 start at $100 on a 15 car train; their insurance carrier demands they carry something like $100M in liability.  Many many millions, at least.

I don't even know if the University of Minnesota HAS a gaming group any more, but the ability to reserve the entire third floor of Coffman Union for free was sure a boon to running U-Con there.  All those rooms for free, and the first floor Great Hall for $100.

But even if anybody did do that, would the gamers come to such a "minimalist" convention?

The world wags on.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 29, 2016, 10:42:05 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;894699
Well, in our time they were a handy - if very, very unreliable!!! - way to get from Point A to point B without walking. It was Phil's way of telescoping travel time, and of getting us into new adventures, Which is why, usually, I preferred to walk or take a ship.

Well, it's like the two hobbits in Bey Su. (They got really cushy jobs, the little twerps.) Depending on where you drop in, the locals will have wildly different reactions. In a temple complex, the guards will surround the party and they'll be invited to stay for quit a while while the temple gets all the information that they can out of the party. Imperial area, off to the park to go on exhibition - it's what the two hobbits do. Usual city or rural area, probably be taken for demons, and shown the door as fast as possible, provided that nobody gets stupid and violence breaks out. In some enlightened parts of the world, they'll be recognized as adventures and be offered jobs as mercenaries. It's what I did when Captain Harchar showed up with a bunch of Amazons on his ship. (No rude jokes, please; they had their own weapons and armor, so we hired them on the spot.) They were unemployed warriors from this Blackmoor place he kept visiting, and needed the work. Same thing with this guy from someplace called Flanders. he works for the Temple of Avanthe as hired muscle. Nice armor, though; never seen anything like it, myself... :)
You chose smart:).
And that's duly noted, but I'm thinking a relatively minor number of people appearing separated - as servants, slaves or guards. But for some reason, they get left behind, often with a rudimentary understanding of the language, if that. Their employers communicated with them in their native tongues, mostly.

If they're taken for demons, can a smart one leverage that;)? A PC did exactly that trick, but it wasn't exactly easy, and it was in Lyvianu (and let's add to this, she proved she can deal with pretty much any task they could set). Would that stand a chance to work in, say, Jakalla?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;894775
Yeah, all this is true.  It's why tickets to ride behind CMST&P 261 start at $100 on a 15 car train; their insurance carrier demands they carry something like $100M in liability.  Many many millions, at least.

I don't even know if the University of Minnesota HAS a gaming group any more, but the ability to reserve the entire third floor of Coffman Union for free was sure a boon to running U-Con there.  All those rooms for free, and the first floor Great Hall for $100.

But even if anybody did do that, would the gamers come to such a "minimalist" convention?

The world wags on.
Weird. Most people here are completely happy to pay their ticket, which admittedly has only a nominal price - we gather in a boardgame cafe, so this is actually their entry fee - and in exchange, they get a place where there are just some tables to play, and people willing to run a game.
Maybe it's just that we have never had a "maximalist" convention, so they don't know they could expect more;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 29, 2016, 02:21:56 PM
Quote from: Bren;894749
If it makes you feel any better, chirine ba kal, I have no idea who that guy is and his name has already been forgotten.


Understood; I feel the same way. It doesn't have any influence on what I do; for all intents and purposes, they're irrelevant. So, let's go forward, shall we? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 29, 2016, 02:28:53 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;894775
Yeah, all this is true.  It's why tickets to ride behind CMST&P 261 start at $100 on a 15 car train; their insurance carrier demands they carry something like $100M in liability.  Many many millions, at least.

I don't even know if the University of Minnesota HAS a gaming group any more, but the ability to reserve the entire third floor of Coffman Union for free was sure a boon to running U-Con there.  All those rooms for free, and the first floor Great Hall for $100.

But even if anybody did do that, would the gamers come to such a "minimalist" convention?

The world wags on.

True. All too true.

There isn't a 'generalist' game group like what we had; there's a computer gaming group and I think a board gaming group, but that seems to be it. And the third floor of Coffman has been very changed, so that there isn't much space for meetings like what we had.

I don't know; not enough data. the local game con, Con of the North, has finally broken 500 people, after several decades of trying to get more then the 350 - 400 that they had for years. It's a pretty 'minimalist' convention of the kind we used to run, but the market seems to want Official, Authorized, Approved, Sponsored Events With Premium Game Play. That kind of event brings them out in droves, I've seen.

As a general observation, game cons look like F/SF cons, which look like anime cons, which look like game cons. Aside from the proportions in the program book of the types of events, it's gotten pretty hard to tell them apart from each other.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 29, 2016, 02:32:46 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;894777
You chose smart:).
And that's duly noted, but I'm thinking a relatively minor number of people appearing separated - as servants, slaves or guards. But for some reason, they get left behind, often with a rudimentary understanding of the language, if that. Their employers communicated with them in their native tongues, mostly.

If they're taken for demons, can a smart one leverage that;)? A PC did exactly that trick, but it wasn't exactly easy, and it was in Lyvianu (and let's add to this, she proved she can deal with pretty much any task they could set). Would that stand a chance to work in, say, Jakalla?


Weird. Most people here are completely happy to pay their ticket, which admittedly has only a nominal price - we gather in a boardgame cafe, so this is actually their entry fee - and in exchange, they get a place where there are just some tables to play, and people willing to run a game.
Maybe it's just that we have never had a "maximalist" convention, so they don't know they could expect more;).

Oh, right. Understood. The lower the social level of the stranded people, the worse off they are going to be.

Oh, yes, very much so - as long as one can deliver the goods as a demon, of course. Your player would certainly be able to get away with it in Jakalla - the Livyani are a lot harder sell on this kind of thing, so if they got away with it in Tsamra, Jakalla would be a snap.

Agreed. See my previous reply; cons here in the US now have a lot of 'bells and whistles', as con committees try to out to their competition. Me, all I want is a big room with tables and chairs - the game's the thing! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 29, 2016, 04:51:56 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;894697
It's the historical period overlapping the end of the Latter Times and the beginning of the Empire of Llyan of Tsamra. It's the time when most of the Undying Wizards got their start, and when magic-users - 'magic' having been invented - could do pretty much anything that they wanted to. Think the Wild West with energy bolts and fireballs.


Oh, well that sounds interesting. I don't remember having read this before. Cool. I think I can use this to solve some continuity issues in my game. :cool:

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 29, 2016, 05:01:30 PM
Chirine,

In the same issue where the interview with Phil was, I saw there was a module in which you are mentioned. It says that one of Dhichune's political appointees, some Ito woman, denounced you and tried to have you deposed/impaled. Was this something that happened in game or was it "artistic licence" by the module designer?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 29, 2016, 05:30:29 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;894822

As a general observation, game cons look like F/SF cons, which look like anime cons, which look like game cons. Aside from the proportions in the program book of the types of events, it's gotten pretty hard to tell them apart from each other.

That's a very good observation, indeed. I'm almost tempted to go to the next anime convention and run a Japanese game...:)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;894824
Oh, right. Understood. The lower the social level of the stranded people, the worse off they are going to be.

Isn't that always the case;)?

Quote
Oh, yes, very much so - as long as one can deliver the goods as a demon, of course. Your player would certainly be able to get away with it in Jakalla - the Livyani are a lot harder sell on this kind of thing, so if they got away with it in Tsamra, Jakalla would be a snap.

Interesting; why would it be harder in Livyanu? I had assumed the exact opposite, because of the many disparate gods and goddesses who keep what demons serve them in secret. Maybe I was wrong, and thus went too easy on the player?

Quote
Agreed. See my previous reply; cons here in the US now have a lot of 'bells and whistles', as con committees try to out to their competition. Me, all I want is a big room with tables and chairs - the game's the thing! :)

I'd settle for the big room as well. Obviously other people want different things for reasons unknown to me:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 29, 2016, 08:11:08 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;894822
As a general observation, game cons look like F/SF cons, which look like anime cons, which look like game cons. Aside from the proportions in the program book of the types of events, it's gotten pretty hard to tell them apart from each other.

Truth.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 29, 2016, 08:15:37 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;894777
Weird. Most people here are completely happy to pay their ticket, which admittedly has only a nominal price - we gather in a boardgame cafe, so this is actually their entry fee - and in exchange, they get a place where there are just some tables to play, and people willing to run a game.
Maybe it's just that we have never had a "maximalist" convention, so they don't know they could expect more;).

Well, I'm not sure what a "boardgame cafe" is other than what is implied by the simple meaning of the words, but I've never seen one here in the USA.  There might be some somewhere in this land of a third of a billion people.

In the US there has been an increasing trend towards decreasing socialization (see "Bowling Alone,") so a US "convention" has to be more than "let's meet up at someplace we have to pay money for."  If friends are going to gather to play games they'll simply do it in somebody's house.  Conventions offer a chance to meet new gamers and try new games, as well as the "dealers' room" where you can buy everything from dice to swords.

The smallest convention I know of is the one-day "ReCon" of Minneapolis, which basically provides a big room with big tables for miniatures gamers.  But miniatures gamers are odd ducks even in the gaming world.  Quack.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 29, 2016, 08:17:00 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;894864
Interesting; why would it be harder in Livyanu? I had assumed the exact opposite, because of the many disparate gods and goddesses who keep what demons serve them in secret. Maybe I was wrong, and thus went too easy on the player?

"I know what a demon smells like, and you aren't one!"  Tough to fool folks who have magic coming out of their ears.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 30, 2016, 01:37:54 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;894857
Oh, well that sounds interesting. I don't remember having read this before. Cool. I think I can use this to solve some continuity issues in my game. :cool:

Shemek.


Yep; it's so far back in the past, there are no reliable historical records, so all we have are legends. Which, of course, are the stuff of adventures. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 30, 2016, 02:09:44 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;894859
Chirine,

In the same issue where the interview with Phil was, I saw there was a module in which you are mentioned. It says that one of Dhichune's political appointees, some Ito woman, denounced you and tried to have you deposed/impaled. Was this something that happened in game or was it "artistic licence" by the module designer?

Shemek

This was Phil having one of his periodic throw-his-toys-out-of-the-pram temper tantrums. He'd sold us down the river to Different Worlds, effectively killing his own publishing company Tekumel Games. All of us, who were doing the work of keeping the thing (and Tekumel itself) afloat, handed in our resignations. We still gamed with him, but all the creative work stopped dead. Different Worlds soon found out that without us, there was nothing in the pipeline, and the money stopped coming in. Phil, as usual, blamed me for this and killed Chirine, his wife, and infant twins in a fit of pique. I simply laughed, and reminded him that this was a game and not real life. I got on with my life, kept running my own campaign for another five years, and when we started the new group in 2002 we just picked up where we'd left off.

As Gronan mentioned, Phil could confuse the game room with real life on occasion, and this was one of them. There was a very strong backlash from Tekumel fans who knew me and what I'd been doing for Tekumel, and we lost a lot of very good people as a result; Phil backtracked pretty quickly, but the damage had been done. Phil had a habit of cutting off his nose to spite his face, and it made for some very poorly thought-out decisions.

So, Chirine and his family continue to live comfortably, and he now sends a new generation of adventurers off on new adventures. It's all in the book... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 30, 2016, 02:13:54 AM
From AsenRG:
Interesting; why would it be harder in Livyanu? I had assumed the exact opposite, because of the many disparate gods and goddesses who keep what demons serve them in secret. Maybe I was wrong, and thus went too easy on the player?

Because the Livyani as so steeped in sorcery, they tend to be a little harder to fool on these subjects. If one can pass as a demon in Livyanu, they can do it anywhere. Except around Lord Fu Shi, I'd expect.

I'd settle for the big room as well. Obviously other people want different things for reasons unknown to me:D!

Agreed. These days, here in the US, you need to have a dealers' room, maybe a costume show, and stuff like that to attract any attention.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 30, 2016, 05:32:59 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;894887
Well, I'm not sure what a "boardgame cafe" is other than what is implied by the simple meaning of the words, but I've never seen one here in the USA.  There might be some somewhere in this land of a third of a billion people.

In the US there has been an increasing trend towards decreasing socialization (see "Bowling Alone,") so a US "convention" has to be more than "let's meet up at someplace we have to pay money for."  If friends are going to gather to play games they'll simply do it in somebody's house.  Conventions offer a chance to meet new gamers and try new games, as well as the "dealers' room" where you can buy everything from dice to swords.

The smallest convention I know of is the one-day "ReCon" of Minneapolis, which basically provides a big room with big tables for miniatures gamers.  But miniatures gamers are odd ducks even in the gaming world.  Quack.
A boardgame cafe is a place where you go, pay an entry tax (I read in another thread it's $5 in the USA, often is 5 BGN here - which amounts to slightly less than $3 by current forex rates) and get access to the games they have, and a table to play. You usually go in a group, everyone pays, and you get to play any game that you haven't purchased. Some people use them for RPG sessions, because as long as you're there and playing, they don't care what you're playing (though strip poker is right out, I suspect, but we haven't tried to see :p).
Of course, they're also selling refreshments and sometimes, food. So don't bring your sandwiches; but apart from the entry fee, it's just as expensive as spending a day with friends in a coffee shop. So I consider it a good deal - houses here are not as big as they are in the USA, sometimes there just isn't a spare room (and kids tend to lose your dice:D).
You often can buy boardgames and dice in boardgame cafes, too. So in a way, that's a dealer room, just no RPG dealers (and no sword dealers).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;894919
This was Phil having one of his periodic throw-his-toys-out-of-the-pram temper tantrums. He'd sold us down the river to Different Worlds, effectively killing his own publishing company Tekumel Games. All of us, who were doing the work of keeping the thing (and Tekumel itself) afloat, handed in our resignations. We still gamed with him, but all the creative work stopped dead. Different Worlds soon found out that without us, there was nothing in the pipeline, and the money stopped coming in. Phil, as usual, blamed me for this and killed Chirine, his wife, and infant twins in a fit of pique. I simply laughed, and reminded him that this was a game and not real life. I got on with my life, kept running my own campaign for another five years, and when we started the new group in 2002 we just picked up where we'd left off.

As Gronan mentioned, Phil could confuse the game room with real life on occasion, and this was one of them. There was a very strong backlash from Tekumel fans who knew me and what I'd been doing for Tekumel, and we lost a lot of very good people as a result; Phil backtracked pretty quickly, but the damage had been done. Phil had a habit of cutting off his nose to spite his face, and it made for some very poorly thought-out decisions.

So, Chirine and his family continue to live comfortably, and he now sends a new generation of adventurers off on new adventures. It's all in the book... :)
Interesting - which book details these events, and the subsequent (I suspect) revivification? I suspect I remember it, but I'd like to have confirmation.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;894920
From AsenRG:
Interesting; why would it be harder in Livyanu? I had assumed the exact opposite, because of the many disparate gods and goddesses who keep what demons serve them in secret. Maybe I was wrong, and thus went too easy on the player?

Because the Livyani as so steeped in sorcery, they tend to be a little harder to fool on these subjects. If one can pass as a demon in Livyanu, they can do it anywhere. Except around Lord Fu Shi, I'd expect.
Oh, that.
She didn't fool those closest to her. They pronounced her a demon in order to explain why a non-Livyani is getting the special treatment and respect. And I guess that's a difference between my Tekumel and the Original Tekumel: I'm incorporated the Tibetan saying that "If there's faith, a dog's tooth will start producing miracles" as an universal law.

Why? Because, as far as I can say, magic on Tekumel depends on interacting with the nano-sphere. The nano-entities/AIs will react to actions that resemble those they've been taught to care about - after all, they were created - and react to intent, too. That's why rituals work for believers better, and require exacting repetition; furthermore, some theories say that it's why rituals even work - they just produce the required uniform reactions in the observers...

Is that how Original Tekumel works? I suspect not, but that was the best approximation I was able to come up with for why technology allows spellcasting:D! So, I guess it's actually following Phil's advice on Making Tekumel Your Own.

Quote
I'd settle for the big room as well. Obviously other people want different things for reasons unknown to me:D!

Agreed. These days, here in the US, you need to have a dealers' room, maybe a costume show, and stuff like that to attract any attention.
Well, only anime cons have all of these around here; and they feature no RPGs, or just a session or two if you're lucky. Different situation, I guess.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 30, 2016, 12:28:41 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;894933
A boardgame cafe is a place where you go, pay an entry tax (I read in another thread it's $5 in the USA, often is 5 BGN here - which amounts to slightly less than $3 by current forex rates) and get access to the games they have, and a table to play. You usually go in a group, everyone pays, and you get to play any game that you haven't purchased. Some people use them for RPG sessions, because as long as you're there and playing, they don't care what you're playing (though strip poker is right out, I suspect, but we haven't tried to see :p).
Of course, they're also selling refreshments and sometimes, food. So don't bring your sandwiches; but apart from the entry fee, it's just as expensive as spending a day with friends in a coffee shop. So I consider it a good deal - houses here are not as big as they are in the USA, sometimes there just isn't a spare room (and kids tend to lose your dice:D).
You often can buy boardgames and dice in boardgame cafes, too. So in a way, that's a dealer room, just no RPG dealers (and no sword dealers).


Sounds interesting.  It would be a great way to try games.  I wonder if the US has many?  This part of it sure doesn't.

House size would be a fascinating issue to do a sociology project on.  Here in the US of A, a 2000 square foot house with 3 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms or bathroom/half bath (toilet and sink) plus kitchen, living room, dining room, is considered "moderate size."  Then you get the Baby Boomer "empty nesters" in their late 50s -- the house is paid off, the kids are married and on their own, the dog is dead, and you've never made more money... building "retirement homes" of 2500 or 3000 square feet.

It's had a noticeable effect on model railroad clubs in some parts of the country, too; why join a club when you've got 2000 square feet of basement to do as you please with?  Just invite your friends over to help you build.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 30, 2016, 01:29:59 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;894933
A boardgame cafe is a place where you go, pay an entry tax (I read in another thread it's $5 in the USA, often is 5 BGN here - which amounts to slightly less than $3 by current forex rates) and get access to the games they have, and a table to play.
I've never seen of one of these cafes - nor an ad for same. I suspect they are either a really new thing in the US or a very rare thing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 30, 2016, 03:17:33 PM
My info (http://www.thehexcafe.com) for the boardgame cafés in the USA is necessarily second hand. That said, they were mentioned in another thread on this forum, the same where someone accused Gronan of not having disposable income to buy newer games:D!

All I know is that here even boardgame shops are adopting this model;).

And yes, your moderate house is twice the size of an above average house here. Fascinating topic indeed.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 30, 2016, 03:37:30 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;895002
And yes, your moderate house is twice the size of an above average house here. Fascinating topic indeed.
I'm certainly guilty as charged. But I need a bigger house because my refrigerator is twice the size of the one I had in England and the washer and dryer take up 5-6 times the space of the single unit in my flat there. And tiny houses have tiny driveways and my wife owns a big, red, Ford pickup truck and of course we have cars, because you get anywhere outside a major city without one. :)

Also Edmonton is in Canada. Technically, Canada is still a separate country. More so now, in some ways, since 9-11. ;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 30, 2016, 04:53:11 PM
From AsenRG:
Interesting - which book details these events, and the subsequent (I suspect) revivification? I suspect I remember it, but I'd like to have confirmation.

"To Serve The Petal Throne", end of Book Five. The incident is part of the historical record, so it's in the book.

Oh, that.
She didn't fool those closest to her. They pronounced her a demon in order to explain why a non-Livyani is getting the special treatment and respect. And I guess that's a difference between my Tekumel and the Original Tekumel: I'm incorporated the Tibetan saying that "If there's faith, a dog's tooth will start producing miracles" as an universal law.

Why? Because, as far as I can say, magic on Tekumel depends on interacting with the nano-sphere. The nano-entities/AIs will react to actions that resemble those they've been taught to care about - after all, they were created - and react to intent, too. That's why rituals work for believers better, and require exacting repetition; furthermore, some theories say that it's why rituals even work - they just produce the required uniform reactions in the observers...

Is that how Original Tekumel works? I suspect not, but that was the best approximation I was able to come up with for why technology allows spellcasting:D! So, I guess it's actually following Phil's advice on Making Tekumel Your Own.


Well, I think it actually follows what Phil set forth. Rituals are part of the 'wetware' that makes the technology work; if one does 'this', then 'that' happens. Nobody really knows why magic works, and - aside from scholars - only cares that it does.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 30, 2016, 04:56:03 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;894968
Sounds interesting.  It would be a great way to try games.  I wonder if the US has many?  This part of it sure doesn't.

House size would be a fascinating issue to do a sociology project on.  Here in the US of A, a 2000 square foot house with 3 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms or bathroom/half bath (toilet and sink) plus kitchen, living room, dining room, is considered "moderate size."  Then you get the Baby Boomer "empty nesters" in their late 50s -- the house is paid off, the kids are married and on their own, the dog is dead, and you've never made more money... building "retirement homes" of 2500 or 3000 square feet.

It's had a noticeable effect on model railroad clubs in some parts of the country, too; why join a club when you've got 2000 square feet of basement to do as you please with?  Just invite your friends over to help you build.

Out of the 2300 total square feet on three levels, I have 450 square feet devoted to gaming and there used to be 225 devoted to the railway. I did invite my friends, but nobody came. Most UK layouts are portable, and get set up down the clubrooms.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 30, 2016, 05:00:26 PM
Quote from: Bren;894980
I've never seen of one of these cafes - nor an ad for same. I suspect they are either a really new thing in the US or a very rare thing.

FFG's Event Center is just like this, but you don't have to pay a fee. They have a huge library of games that can be played, and free WiFi as well as a big room full of tables - with miniatures and scenery for rent, at very cheap rates; they charge to make sure the figures stay in-house. They make their money with the food and drink, and also through the free advertising for their products. It's usually pretty full, as it has become a destination for people to go to - including couples and families, as well. See also:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/more/fantasy-flight-games-center/ (https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/more/fantasy-flight-games-center/)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 30, 2016, 06:46:00 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;895002
another thread on this forum, the same where someone accused Gronan of not having disposable income to buy newer games:D!


Amazing how many people confuse "won't" with "can't," isn't it?

Right up there with the number of people who don't understand that the company has to prove to me that I should spend money, not that I have to prove why I should not.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 30, 2016, 07:39:32 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895043
Right up there with the number of people who don't understand that the company has to prove to me that I should spend money, not that I have to prove why I should not.
What are you some kind of quasi-capitalist?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 30, 2016, 07:59:41 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895043
Amazing how many people confuse "won't" with "can't," isn't it?

Right up there with the number of people who don't understand that the company has to prove to me that I should spend money, not that I have to prove why I should not.

Huh? I guess I'm missing something here. Any money I spend on my hobbies I regard as an investment - not in money, 'cause there is very (read none) resale value in either old lead or old British trains - in present and future enjoyment. I don't see a reason why I need to spend money on something I don't think I'm going to enjoy for some time to come. I freely admit that I am an oddity in today's gaming hobby; I've seen a lot of miniature armies that never get painted or even get a coat of primer, as they've been bought to allow the player to enter a tournament or other event. When the event closes, the miniatures go right back into the 'used' bin, and the player moves on to their next army. In contrast to that approach, a lot of the lead in the basement is older then my oldest daughter. I'm not saying that either - or other - approaches are 'correct' or 'better'; if it works for you, it's fine by me.

I look before I buy. I was in the FLGS last Sunday, checking to see if TRE Games had more of their wonderful laser-cut furniture, and looked at a set of miniatures rules for a period that I had some interest in. 238 pages, beautifully illustrated with color photos, and dense with rules. I didn't even consider the price of the book; if I have to either memorize or reference 238 pages of rules for a period that's pretty simple in practice, then I am not going to buy the book. Same thing with a lot of RPGs that I've looked at over the years. Of course, there are players who like that kind of thing, and more power to them if that's what they like. I had a guy tell me what he wasn't going to play in my Tekumel campaign because there weren't enough rules; I pointed out that S&G has over 950 pages' worth of rules, and he thought that wasn't enough...

Miniatures, I look before I buy, and usually buy from people that I know or have samples of their work in the collection. Like:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/temple-of-set-miniatures (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/temple-of-set-miniatures) or

http://www.cast-in-stone.co.uk/html/home.html (http://www.cast-in-stone.co.uk/html/home.html)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 30, 2016, 08:18:42 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895055
Huh? I guess I'm missing something here.

I was responding to Asen's speaking of some other thread where somebody said I don't have the financial means to buy new games.

And to a notion I've seen in a lot of places that one is somehow obliged to always buy the next best thing/newest shiny/latest edition.  The notion that I still play OD&D or CHAINMAIL because I actually prefer the play experience they give is quite beyond some people.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 30, 2016, 08:19:17 PM
Quote from: Bren;895052
What are you some kind of quasi-capitalist?

I'm an autonomous collective.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 30, 2016, 08:30:46 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895060
I was responding to Asen's speaking of some other thread where somebody said I don't have the financial means to buy new games.

And to a notion I've seen in a lot of places that one is somehow obliged to always buy the next best thing/newest shiny/latest edition.  The notion that I still play OD&D or CHAINMAIL because I actually prefer the play experience they give is quite beyond some people.

Right, understood; what I'm missing here is the 'why' I have to buy something that I don't think will meet my needs (or yours - you know what I mean, here) for what I do.

I are baffled.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 30, 2016, 08:49:58 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895061
I'm an autonomous collective.


I'm an autonomous polity, the last hold-out of a forgotten imperial heritage. (Ten points if you get the obscure reference.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on April 30, 2016, 09:26:24 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895061
I'm an autonomous collective.
Yeah, that's what all you Borg say.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;895067
I'm an autonomous polity, the last hold-out of a forgotten imperial heritage. (Ten points if you get the obscure reference.)
Stumped me. When I think of autonomous polities I think of Poleis which are usually considered pre rather than post Imperial.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 30, 2016, 09:54:43 PM
Quote from: Bren;895068
Yeah, that's what all you Borg say.

We're an anarcho-syndaclist commune.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 30, 2016, 10:10:27 PM
Quote from: Bren;895068

Stumped me. When I think of autonomous polities I think of Poleis which are usually considered pre rather than post Imperial.


Close. Very close. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 30, 2016, 10:11:08 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895072
We're an anarcho-syndaclist commune.

Aux barricades!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 30, 2016, 10:21:44 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;894968
Sounds interesting.  It would be a great way to try games.  I wonder if the US has many?  This part of it sure doesn't.

House size would be a fascinating issue to do a sociology project on.  Here in the US of A, a 2000 square foot house with 3 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms or bathroom/half bath (toilet and sink) plus kitchen, living room, dining room, is considered "moderate size."  Then you get the Baby Boomer "empty nesters" in their late 50s -- the house is paid off, the kids are married and on their own, the dog is dead, and you've never made more money... building "retirement homes" of 2500 or 3000 square feet.

It's had a noticeable effect on model railroad clubs in some parts of the country, too; why join a club when you've got 2000 square feet of basement to do as you please with?  Just invite your friends over to help you build.


There are a tonne of these cafes in Toronto, in fact it's lousy with them. Here's a link to a blog that goes into the details, and lists the 21 "best ones" in the city.

http://www.blogto.com/city/2016/04/the_top_21_board_game_bars_and_cafes_in_toronto_by_neighbourhood/

I have never been to one, but I know people who have, and they like them.

I was guilty of this too. I had a 3000 sq ft house with four bedrooms, a den, finished basement, etc, etc... Down sizing to my post war 1000 sq ft bungalow on its massive lot was the best thing I ever did. It's on a nice quite tree lined street, walking distance to the lake. I'm currently renovating the basement and when I am done I will have my perfect game room/rec room.  :cool:

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 30, 2016, 10:42:00 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;894919
This was Phil having one of his periodic throw-his-toys-out-of-the-pram temper tantrums. He'd sold us down the river to Different Worlds, effectively killing his own publishing company Tekumel Games. All of us, who were doing the work of keeping the thing (and Tekumel itself) afloat, handed in our resignations. We still gamed with him, but all the creative work stopped dead. Different Worlds soon found out that without us, there was nothing in the pipeline, and the money stopped coming in. Phil, as usual, blamed me for this and killed Chirine, his wife, and infant twins in a fit of pique. I simply laughed, and reminded him that this was a game and not real life. I got on with my life, kept running my own campaign for another five years, and when we started the new group in 2002 we just picked up where we'd left off.

As Gronan mentioned, Phil could confuse the game room with real life on occasion, and this was one of them. There was a very strong backlash from Tekumel fans who knew me and what I'd been doing for Tekumel, and we lost a lot of very good people as a result; Phil backtracked pretty quickly, but the damage had been done. Phil had a habit of cutting off his nose to spite his face, and it made for some very poorly thought-out decisions.

So, Chirine and his family continue to live comfortably, and he now sends a new generation of adventurers off on new adventures. It's all in the book... :)


That's too bad that he got so upset. From what you say it was of his own doing in the first place. No reason to take it out on you.

I always tried to keep the personal stuff out the game, and if I couldn't I would ask the player I was pissed off at to skip the next session(s) until I cooled off. I know this was "sucky" on my part, but as a teenager I could be petulant at times back then. Funny how three years in the army cured me of this...:p Nowadays, sometimes, I could care less if we even play. I love the interaction at the RPG table, but it's not as important as it was once. Life is too short to get all worked up, and as you said "it's a game".

I'm glad Chirine didn't take the high ride after all, although I'm sure some players didn't feel the same way.

Did you start playing in Phil's game again in 2002?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 30, 2016, 10:43:31 PM
To any fellow Eastern Orthodox thread readers: Happy Easter!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 30, 2016, 11:03:04 PM
Chirine,

How goes the book? Can we get a status update. Any chance of some pages/stories you could share with us?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 30, 2016, 11:13:31 PM
Chirine,

One more question. Phil mentions that the city of Ssuganar was the old Ssu capital, and that during the fall of the Dragon Warriors Empire the Ssu reoccupied it before being driven out by Gamulu. Is Ssuganar an area in Pecháno that still gets a lot of attention from the Ssu. Do they still raid into it, even though it is so far in Pechani territory?
Also, looking at the Tekumel maps I notice that there is a city in Ssuyal called Ssu. Do you have any information on this city that you could share with us?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 30, 2016, 11:20:42 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895024
I did invite my friends, but nobody came.

Well, that's a shame.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 01, 2016, 12:16:51 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895072
We're an anarcho-syndaclist commune.
I'm having Bakunin flashbacks. Well to be precise flashbacks to the The Hostile Takeover Trilogy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_Takeover_Trilogy).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 12:26:40 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;895078
That's too bad that he got so upset. From what you say it was of his own doing in the first place. No reason to take it out on you.

I always tried to keep the personal stuff out the game, and if I couldn't I would ask the player I was pissed off at to skip the next session(s) until I cooled off. I know this was "sucky" on my part, but as a teenager I could be petulant at times back then. Funny how three years in the army cured me of this...:p Nowadays, sometimes, I could care less if we even play. I love the interaction at the RPG table, but it's not as important as it was once. Life is too short to get all worked up, and as you said "it's a game".

I'm glad Chirine didn't take the high ride after all, although I'm sure some players didn't feel the same way.

Did you start playing in Phil's game again in 2002?

Shemek.

Well, so it went. It was the price we paid for getting to visit Tekumel. Was it worth it? Well, I'm still here, ain't I... :)

I don't think we ever understood a lot of why Phil did what he did. I'd prefer to remember the good times that we had with him which were very good indeed.

No; Tekumel gaming out at his house had pretty much ended, by then. I was asked, back in 2002, to run a Tekumel campaign for one of the founders of the original Thursday Night Group - Rick Bjugen - to take his mind off his chemotherapy sessions. When he passed away a few years later, he willed me his extensive Tekumel collection on the condition that I continue to run games for the group. Phil kept track of what I was doing, as he read my little blog, and asked me for copies of his works that he no longer had and which I was happy to provide from my archives. And he did apologize, about three months before he passed away.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 12:27:46 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;895079
To any fellow Eastern Orthodox thread readers: Happy Easter!

Yep; never mind that new-fangled Gregorian calendar!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 12:29:28 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;895083
Chirine,

How goes the book? Can we get a status update. Any chance of some pages/stories you could share with us?

Shemek.

It's going pretty well; I have two full weeks of vacation coming up, and I am expecting to get a lot done. I'm getting a little leery of sharing small bits; I would like people to see thing in their campaign context. I'll see what I can do...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 12:30:16 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;895086
Chirine,

One more question. Phil mentions that the city of Ssuganar was the old Ssu capital, and that during the fall of the Dragon Warriors Empire the Ssu reoccupied it before being driven out by Gamulu. Is Ssuganar an area in Pecháno that still gets a lot of attention from the Ssu. Do they still raid into it, even though it is so far in Pechani territory?
Also, looking at the Tekumel maps I notice that there is a city in Ssuyal called Ssu. Do you have any information on this city that you could share with us?

Shemek.

Longer answer in an hour - off to rescue Second Daughter from work! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 01, 2016, 01:35:13 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895096
I don't think we ever understood a lot of why Phil did what he did.


"The politics of the university are so intense because the stakes are so low."
Wallace Stanley Sayre


I'm thinking Sayre's thoughts might be applicable to a lot of the furor in gaming in general and to problems among the aficionados of Tekumel in particular.

Quote
I'd prefer to remember the good times that we had with him which were very good indeed.
Then you should.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 02:01:04 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;895086
Chirine,

One more question. Phil mentions that the city of Ssuganar was the old Ssu capital, and that during the fall of the Dragon Warriors Empire the Ssu reoccupied it before being driven out by Gamulu. Is Ssuganar an area in Pecháno that still gets a lot of attention from the Ssu. Do they still raid into it, even though it is so far in Pechani territory?
Also, looking at the Tekumel maps I notice that there is a city in Ssuyal called Ssu. Do you have any information on this city that you could share with us?

Shemek.


The forum just burped, and I lost my first try at a reply...

The old capital is pretty much abandoned; it was badly trashed by the Lords of Humanspace and then again by Lord Gamalu. About all that's left are waist- and knee-high concrete rubble piles; there is a tubeway car station, one of the ones that will take a troop carrier, and evidence that the Lords of Humanspace had had a garrison there. The Ssu regularly send parties into the ruins to see what they can find; supposedly, the underground levels have some pretty rich pickings, but you're likely to run into a lot of Ssu.

The new capital is all mostly underground. There are some 'warehouse' buildings on the surface, and the triangular pyramids that cover the tops of the lift shafts that lead downwards. Some of these are mechanical elevators, and some are real honest-to-Heinlein Sword and Planet drop shafts. The city is mostly tunnels; laid out in 30 and 60 degree patterns; they seem to like triangles and hexes in their planning. There is supposedly a aircar 'hanger', but we didn't see it; likewise, there's a rumor that they have an in-system space ship in a hidden dock. We did find some Lightning Bringers, and these had a nasty accident, on the theory that it's often better to spike the other guy's guns before he can use them on you...

Does this help any?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 02:06:43 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895087
Well, that's a shame.


Yep. Had the thing pretty much up and running, and when I called around and told everybody who'd wanted to run trains that it was time to come on over - and maybe help out a bit - there was this resounding dead silence. The layout eventually got demolished, to make room for the first two daughters. You can see what was at:

http://members.bitstream.net/minetyoo/ (http://members.bitstream.net/minetyoo/)

Had a lot of fun building this; took a trip to Weymouth to see the Quay Tramway, and several visits to be with friends in Minety. The pride and joy of the layout were the working semaphores from Ratio, in the UK; these have miniature lever frames, and work just like the real thing in mechanical signaling - no electrics at all! It's now all in storage, awaiting better days...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 02:13:17 AM
Quote from: Bren;895112
"The politics of the university are so intense because the stakes are so low."
Wallace Stanley Sayre

I'm thinking Sayre's thoughts might be applicable to a lot of the furor in gaming in general and to problems among the aficionados of Tekumel in particular.

Then you should.

Precisely. And Agreed, too. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on May 01, 2016, 09:06:41 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895063
Right, understood; what I'm missing here is the 'why' I have to buy something that I don't think will meet my needs (or yours - you know what I mean, here) for what I do.

I are baffled.


"Supporting the Product Line" I think is the justification.
If you support it there will be more and it will stay "current".
The herd will move on the the next "new thing" and refuse to play your "old stuff" if it isn't "current".
Then all your investment will be "wasted".

This forces companies to produce _something_, just to stay "current".
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 01, 2016, 10:15:44 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895099
It's going pretty well; I have two full weeks of vacation coming up, and I am expecting to get a lot done. I'm getting a little leery of sharing small bits; I would like people to see thing in their campaign context. I'll see what I can do...


Greetings Uncle,

I hope all is well. Sorry to be a pest(I know you understand), but how long more or less till the tome is finished(estmates are fine)...?😊
Hope to hear from you soon.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 01, 2016, 10:18:42 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;895161
This forces companies to produce _something_, just to stay "current".
Companies that make money by selling products are forced to produce some kind of product so that they can have products to sell.





Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 01, 2016, 10:30:33 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895119
Yep. Had the thing pretty much up and running, and when I called around and told everybody who'd wanted to run trains that it was time to come on over - and maybe help out a bit - there was this resounding dead silence. The layout eventually got demolished, to make room for the first two daughters. You can see what was at:

http://members.bitstream.net/minetyoo/ (http://members.bitstream.net/minetyoo/)

Had a lot of fun building this; took a trip to Weymouth to see the Quay Tramway, and several visits to be with friends in Minety. The pride and joy of the layout were the working semaphores from Ratio, in the UK; these have miniature lever frames, and work just like the real thing in mechanical signaling - no electrics at all! It's now all in storage, awaiting better days...

Wow!!! You never cease to amaze!!! Good stuff.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 01, 2016, 10:41:30 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895098
Yep; never mind that new-fangled Gregorian calendar!!! :)


Ave Julius!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 01, 2016, 10:41:58 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895117
The forum just burped, and I lost my first try at a reply...

The old capital is pretty much abandoned; it was badly trashed by the Lords of Humanspace and then again by Lord Gamalu. About all that's left are waist- and knee-high concrete rubble piles; there is a tubeway car station, one of the ones that will take a troop carrier, and evidence that the Lords of Humanspace had had a garrison there. The Ssu regularly send parties into the ruins to see what they can find; supposedly, the underground levels have some pretty rich pickings, but you're likely to run into a lot of Ssu.

The new capital is all mostly underground. There are some 'warehouse' buildings on the surface, and the triangular pyramids that cover the tops of the lift shafts that lead downwards. Some of these are mechanical elevators, and some are real honest-to-Heinlein Sword and Planet drop shafts. The city is mostly tunnels; laid out in 30 and 60 degree patterns; they seem to like triangles and hexes in their planning. There is supposedly a aircar 'hanger', but we didn't see it; likewise, there's a rumor that they have an in-system space ship in a hidden dock. We did find some Lightning Bringers, and these had a nasty accident, on the theory that it's often better to spike the other guy's guns before he can use them on you...

Does this help any?


A few quick follow-up questions, if I may...Uncle, how far down did you delve? We are talking only Grey Ssu (there)? It makes me nervous just thinking about going there...Thanks.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 01, 2016, 10:49:43 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895117
The forum just burped, and I lost my first try at a reply...

The old capital is pretty much abandoned; it was badly trashed by the Lords of Humanspace and then again by Lord Gamalu. About all that's left are waist- and knee-high concrete rubble piles; there is a tubeway car station, one of the ones that will take a troop carrier, and evidence that the Lords of Humanspace had had a garrison there. The Ssu regularly send parties into the ruins to see what they can find; supposedly, the underground levels have some pretty rich pickings, but you're likely to run into a lot of Ssu.

The new capital is all mostly underground. There are some 'warehouse' buildings on the surface, and the triangular pyramids that cover the tops of the lift shafts that lead downwards. Some of these are mechanical elevators, and some are real honest-to-Heinlein Sword and Planet drop shafts. The city is mostly tunnels; laid out in 30 and 60 degree patterns; they seem to like triangles and hexes in their planning. There is supposedly a aircar 'hanger', but we didn't see it; likewise, there's a rumor that they have an in-system space ship in a hidden dock. We did find some Lightning Bringers, and these had a nasty accident, on the theory that it's often better to spike the other guy's guns before he can use them on you...

Does this help any?


A tremendous help indeed. I was looking at my old notes the other day and I realised that I never actually sent a group to the city of Ssu. I'll have to remedy that soon. I've had parties roam over large parts of Ssuyal, I've even had a group explore a bit of Ssuganar, but not the city of Ssu. Nice to know what's there.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 01, 2016, 05:17:00 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895098
Yep; never mind that new-fangled Gregorian calendar!!! :)

Happy Easter from a Western schismatic! ;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 01, 2016, 05:20:09 PM
Quote from: Bren;895177
Companies that make money by selling products are forced to produce some kind of product so that they can have products to sell.

  • Since RPG rules are durable i.e. they are not consumed in their use (in contrast to items like soda, pizza, pencils, and graph paper), once a customer has bought one copy of a set of rules they seldom need to buy a another copy of the same set of rules.

  • The market size for purchasing TT RPGs is small and doesn't grow at an appreciable rate. Arguably, it may not even grow at a rate fast enough to replace customers who exit the market. So producing more copies of the same rules doesn't provide a sufficient source of revenue in perpetuity.

  • So for companies to continue to earn money for shareholders they have to produce new game products of some kind, e.g. game supplements and rules expansions, canned adventures or scenarios, and of course, new versions of rules.

Oh, I know why COMPANIES do it.  I've just been amazed at the hostility I've encountered from fellow gamers when I say I have no interest in buying something.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 01, 2016, 05:25:40 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895254
Oh, I know why COMPANIES do it.  I've just been amazed at the hostility I've encountered from fellow gamers when I say I have no interest in buying something.
I knew you knew.


I blame the entitlement of our youth. Who should get the hell off my damn lawn. ;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 01, 2016, 06:13:12 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895119
Yep. Had the thing pretty much up and running, and when I called around and told everybody who'd wanted to run trains that it was time to come on over - and maybe help out a bit - there was this resounding dead silence. The layout eventually got demolished, to make room for the first two daughters. You can see what was at:

http://members.bitstream.net/minetyoo/ (http://members.bitstream.net/minetyoo/)

Had a lot of fun building this; took a trip to Weymouth to see the Quay Tramway, and several visits to be with friends in Minety. The pride and joy of the layout were the working semaphores from Ratio, in the UK; these have miniature lever frames, and work just like the real thing in mechanical signaling - no electrics at all! It's now all in storage, awaiting better days...

Holy CARP that's sweet!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 07:18:43 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;895176
Greetings Uncle,

I hope all is well. Sorry to be a pest(I know you understand), but how long more or less till the tome is finished(estmates are fine)...?😊
Hope to hear from you soon.

H:0)


Thank you; I had a good day yesterday, sorting my stocks of scale lumber - I have a pontoon bridge to build - and the foot is in decent shape. I try to stay off it on the weekends, and this - plus lots of water - seems to be helping.

Time estimate. Hmmm. Well, it all depends on my health and that of the Missus; as the only-able bodied person about the place, I have to do a lot more then I used to to keep things running. When I'm down, things come to a complete halt, sorry to say. Morale is also an issue, to be honest. I lost most of the past year, what with all the drama, but this thread is a large part of what keeps me going - I love to answer questions, as they let me tell stories, which in turn get me back to the writing. Same with my model building; I'm getting back onto several fun projects, scrapping out the remains of several abandoned ones, and generally having a pretty good time. Building things really recharges my batteries, which in turn feeds the writing.

So, an estimate? "God willing and the water don't rise", I'd expect some time this year for the final manuscript. Things are moving along very quickly, I am happy to be able to say.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 07:19:53 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;895180
Wow!!! You never cease to amaze!!! Good stuff.

H:0)

I try, he said modestly. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 07:21:03 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;895183
Ave Julius!


Agreed! And it's been a great day, too... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 07:23:08 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;895184
A few quick follow-up questions, if I may...Uncle, how far down did you delve? We are talking only Grey Ssu (there)? It makes me nervous just thinking about going there...Thanks.

H:0)


We only got down to the first, maybe second levels. Too many Ssu - Grey - with Black Su coming in as reinforcements. It was time to go, and we did. Fast. It's their home territory, and it showed.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 07:24:18 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;895187
A tremendous help indeed. I was looking at my old notes the other day and I realised that I never actually sent a group to the city of Ssu. I'll have to remedy that soon. I've had parties roam over large parts of Ssuyal, I've even had a group explore a bit of Ssuganar, but not the city of Ssu. Nice to know what's there.

Shemek.


Ssuganar is kind of flat as a destination, but Ssu... Whew!!! Scary!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 07:25:00 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895253
Happy Easter from a Western schismatic! ;)


Thank you! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 01, 2016, 07:26:00 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895043
Amazing how many people confuse "won't" with "can't," isn't it?

Right up there with the number of people who don't understand that the company has to prove to me that I should spend money, not that I have to prove why I should not.
I wouldn't call "being self-entitled and not willing to see another's point of view" amazing in any way.
Also, Bren called people that can't abstain from using the latest product "herd", above. I call it "consumerism", and in my language, this word is purely negative.
*shrug*

Quote from: chirine ba kal;895023
From AsenRG:
Interesting - which book details these events, and the subsequent (I suspect) revivification? I suspect I remember it, but I'd like to have confirmation.

"To Serve The Petal Throne", end of Book Five. The incident is part of the historical record, so it's in the book.

Oh, that.
She didn't fool those closest to her. They pronounced her a demon in order to explain why a non-Livyani is getting the special treatment and respect. And I guess that's a difference between my Tekumel and the Original Tekumel: I'm incorporated the Tibetan saying that "If there's faith, a dog's tooth will start producing miracles" as an universal law.

Why? Because, as far as I can say, magic on Tekumel depends on interacting with the nano-sphere. The nano-entities/AIs will react to actions that resemble those they've been taught to care about - after all, they were created - and react to intent, too. That's why rituals work for believers better, and require exacting repetition; furthermore, some theories say that it's why rituals even work - they just produce the required uniform reactions in the observers...

Is that how Original Tekumel works? I suspect not, but that was the best approximation I was able to come up with for why technology allows spellcasting:D! So, I guess it's actually following Phil's advice on Making Tekumel Your Own.


Well, I think it actually follows what Phil set forth. Rituals are part of the 'wetware' that makes the technology work; if one does 'this', then 'that' happens. Nobody really knows why magic works, and - aside from scholars - only cares that it does.
Sure, it does follow from what Phil has written. That was the idea:).
The advantage of my theory is that it actually explains, in a very roundabout way, how magic works. No actual need for that...but it helps me to think of what it can achieve, and to invent rituals on the fly when necessary.

Quote from: Bren;895014
I'm certainly guilty as charged. But I need a bigger house because my refrigerator is twice the size of the one I had in England and the washer and dryer take up 5-6 times the space of the single unit in my flat there. And tiny houses have tiny driveways and my wife owns a big, red, Ford pickup truck and of course we have cars, because you get anywhere outside a major city without one. :)

Also Edmonton is in Canada. Technically, Canada is still a separate country. More so now, in some ways, since 9-11. ;)
Yeah, we've all got our excuses;). I'd say, if you can get a big house, good for you, I don't see how it's hurting anybody.
It just means that some solutions that are practical for you, aren't going to be practical for (most) Europeans.

Also, that was just the first link that popped on the page and was on the same continent as the US. Most links were from the UK. Since I posted that from a phone, I decided not to bother looking for anything closer - after all, Edmonton might be closer to some of you than some place in Austin:p!
Anyway, that's what it looks like. And I agree, it's a good place to try new games.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;895079
To any fellow Eastern Orthodox thread readers: Happy Easter!
Happy Easter!
И освен това, Христос Воскресе!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;895096
Well, so it went. It was the price we paid for getting to visit Tekumel. Was it worth it? Well, I'm still here, ain't I... :)

I don't think we ever understood a lot of why Phil did what he did. I'd prefer to remember the good times that we had with him which were very good indeed.

No; Tekumel gaming out at his house had pretty much ended, by then. I was asked, back in 2002, to run a Tekumel campaign for one of the founders of the original Thursday Night Group - Rick Bjugen - to take his mind off his chemotherapy sessions. When he passed away a few years later, he willed me his extensive Tekumel collection on the condition that I continue to run games for the group. Phil kept track of what I was doing, as he read my little blog, and asked me for copies of his works that he no longer had and which I was happy to provide from my archives. And he did apologize, about three months before he passed away.
Good stuff, bad stuff...there's always a price.
Or maybe I'm just being needlessly philosophical. I can't really tell.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;895098
Yep; never mind that new-fangled Gregorian calendar!!! :)
Yes. I mean, who needs such new-fangled stuff?

Quote from: Bren;895112
"The politics of the university are so intense because the stakes are so low."
Wallace Stanley Sayre

I'm thinking Sayre's thoughts might be applicable to a lot of the furor in gaming in general and to problems among the aficionados of Tekumel in particular.

Then you should.
OK, I laughed at the quote at first.
Then I stopped and thought...
Then I laughed some more at the examples I'd just remembered.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895253
Happy Easter from a Western schismatic! ;)

Happy Easter, dear schismatic!
(We love you as brothers, though adding the "Filioque" was totally unnecessary...:D)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 07:28:31 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895254
Oh, I know why COMPANIES do it.  I've just been amazed at the hostility I've encountered from fellow gamers when I say I have no interest in buying something.


Same here, on both points. I get The Look from people at the FLGS all the time. The staff doesn't do it; they know better. They'd also like to go back to the days when I'd drop $300 to $400 on a visit, but I don't play the brand name games and - to be honest - I've pretty much bought them out of everything that I really want. I do find the occasional delight that I pounce on, and everyone is happy...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 07:32:30 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895258
Holy CARP that's sweet!


Thank you! It was a simple dogbone with a cut-off for the Quay, and off-board staging for more distant locations. Had done a computer network for the card-order system, as well as telephones for the stations - no idea what I'll do with the vintage switchboard I got for this - and a sound system for the layout. The Missus got me a huge collection of vintage railway noises, and mixed custom Cds for each station based on what normally went on there. Maybe someday... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 07:43:37 PM
From AsenRG:
I wouldn't call "being self-entitled and not willing to see another's point of view" amazing in any way.
Also, Bren called people that can't abstain from using the latest product "herd", above. I call it "consumerism", and in my language, this word is purely negative.
*shrug*


I think I can agree with this.

Sure, it does follow from what Phil has written. That was the idea:).
The advantage of my theory is that it actually explains, in a very roundabout way, how magic works. No actual need for that...but it helps me to think of what it can achieve, and to invent rituals on the fly when necessary.


It does, quite nicely. In our day, we just knew that it worked, and used it in practice; we didn't worry too much about how it worked, just that it did when we needed it to.

Yeah, we've all got our excuses;). I'd say, if you can get a big house, good for you, I don't see how it's hurting anybody.
It just means that some solutions that are practical for you, aren't going to be practical for (most) Europeans.


Also true, as my two daughters in Zurich have pointed out to me.

Also, that was just the first link that popped on the page and was on the same continent as the US. Most links were from the UK. Since I posted that from a phone, I decided not to bother looking for anything closer - after all, Edmonton might be closer to some of you than some place in Austin:p!
Anyway, that's what it looks like. And I agree, it's a good place to try new games.


Still a very good link, though, and it's a great concept.

Happy Easter!
И освен това, Христос Воскресе!


Thank you! If I could figure out how to tell this computer to work in Cyrllic, I would reply properly! :)

Good stuff, bad stuff...there's always a price.
Or maybe I'm just being needlessly philosophical. I can't really tell.


True, I think; I'm with you, and being philosophical about all of it. Only way to stay same, I think...

Yes. I mean, who needs such new-fangled stuff?

Phil still worked in the Sothic calendar, as well as the Mayan one. Hugely impressed by that, I was!

OK, I laughed at the quote at first.
Then I stopped and thought...
Then I laughed some more at the examples I'd just remembered.


Same here! :)

Happy Easter, dear schismatic!
(We love you as brothers, though adding the "Filioque" was totally unnecessary...:D)


I'm still cranky about the Fourth Crusade, but I'll eventually get over it. (Pardon me, while I kick a passing gondola. Thank you.)

And the historical in-jokes keep coming, folks! We'll be here all week! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 01, 2016, 08:02:44 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895274
I think I can agree with this.
Sure you can, Uncle...you don't seem to suffer from this, at all:)!

Quote
It does, quite nicely. In our day, we just knew that it worked, and used it in practice; we didn't worry too much about how it worked, just that it did when we needed it to.
Well, I'll keep using it, then. I wonder when they'll get back to Tekumel;).

Quote
Also true, as my two daughters in Zurich have pointed out to me.
Tell them to beware of Zurich chocolade...wait, they probably know that already:D!

Quote
Still a very good link, though, and it's a great concept.
Yeah, been thinking to visit one of those to try out some new games. I guess I might...

Quote
Thank you! If I could figure out how to tell this computer to work in Cyrllic, I would reply properly! :)
Not sure about that, Uncle, but here's what Google found for Mac.
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5206248?start=0&tstart=0

Quote
True, I think; I'm with you, and being philosophical about all of it. Only way to stay same, I think...
...is to change with the changes;)?

Quote
Phil still worked in the Sothic calendar, as well as the Mayan one. Hugely impressed by that, I was!
He would have needed to re-start the cycle, recently...:D

Quote
Happy Easter, dear schismatic!
(We love you as brothers, though adding the "Filioque" was totally unnecessary...:D)


I'm still cranky about the Fourth Crusade, but I'll eventually get over it. (Pardon me, while I kick a passing gondola. Thank you.)
Yeah, the gondolas-users didn't help this Crusade to become more virtuous. That said, Kaloyan did a good job in teaching humility...:D

Quote
And the historical in-jokes keep coming, folks! We'll be here all week! :)
I'm sure we can keep the historical in-jokes going much longer than a week. Let's go back to Tekumel, though.

What is the weirdest blade you've ever seen on Tekumel? Who uses it?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 01, 2016, 08:18:12 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;895269
(We love you as brothers, though adding the "Filioque" was totally unnecessary...:D)

Well, in 1987 or 1989, the Episcopal Church of the US (of which I am a member) resolved that in the next revision of the Book of Common Prayer the "filioque" would be removed.  And the discussions for the next revision are beginning.

(I don't really disagree with the theology of the filioque, but the council that added it was not ecumenical in any meaningful sense.)

Separation in the Church is a wound in the body of Christ.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 01, 2016, 08:21:35 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895272
Thank you! It was a simple dogbone with a cut-off for the Quay, and off-board staging for more distant locations. Had done a computer network for the card-order system, as well as telephones for the stations - no idea what I'll do with the vintage switchboard I got for this - and a sound system for the layout. The Missus got me a huge collection of vintage railway noises, and mixed custom Cds for each station based on what normally went on there. Maybe someday... :)

Never give up!  Never surrender!

(Pop culture references AND historical in-jokes, folks!  Best value anywhere!)

Poor Phil, may his soul be treated gently, had trouble with every publisher he ever worked with, it seems.  I wonder if that was his academia background?  Though I love studying history, every time I regret not pursuing it as a career I reflect on everything I've learned, from a LOT of people, about what a snake pit academia is.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 08:25:05 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;895276

I'm sure we can keep the historical in-jokes going much longer than a week. Let's go back to Tekumel, though.

What is the weirdest blade you've ever seen on Tekumel? Who uses it?


I think we could keep it going all week - it's the comedy circuit for us! :)

The 'weirdest' on Tekumel? Probably the Ssu 'broadsword', as it's got edges all over the place. The 'weirdest' I've ever seen? The Sudanese throwing axe Phil had up on his dining room wall (southeast corner, on the plate rail). Yes, there was a handle, and a good thing, too; you would not have known where to pick the thing up, otherwise...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 08:27:21 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895278
Well, in 1987 or 1989, the Episcopal Church of the US (of which I am a member) resolved that in the next revision of the Book of Common Prayer the "filioque" would be removed.  And the discussions for the next revision are beginning.

(I don't really disagree with the theology of the filioque, but the council that added it was not ecumenical in any meaningful sense.)

Separation in the Church is a wound in the body of Christ.

Huh! You learn something new, every day! And true point, that last.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 08:48:34 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895281
Never give up!  Never surrender!

(Pop culture references AND historical in-jokes, folks!  Best value anywhere!)

Poor Phil, may his soul be treated gently, had trouble with every publisher he ever worked with, it seems.  I wonder if that was his academia background?  Though I love studying history, every time I regret not pursuing it as a career I reflect on everything I've learned, from a LOT of people, about what a snake pit academia is.

I keep hanging in there. The layout will arise, some day. I have to do something with all that stuff... :)

Agreed about Phil's troubles with his publishers. He was voted "Most Difficult Author in the Game Industry" by GAMA; Mike Stackpole ran the 'awards' ceremony, and I got to get up and give the acceptance speech. I still have the 'Ralphie' in the basement; they'd managed to get a heap of the Ralph Cramden figures from the TSR "Honeymooners" board game, and Stackpole used those as the 'trophy'.

Phil's basic problem with 'external' publishers was that they ran their businesses as businesses, and were in business to make money. Phil had lived and worked in academia for almost all his working life, and tended to think of 'publishers' as being like the in-house press shop that most universities had. Phil had a very 'academic' approach to publishing, which - I suspect - is why most of his Tekumel publications have such a 'textbook feel' to them. He kind of got away from that with his novels, as he wrote with a very 1940s - 1950s voice in them; they do read like a lot of the texts that are from that same period in F/SF history. Phil had kind of the same issues with us 'internal' publishers; he had his ideas, and we tended to treat the thing as being a business that had to pay for itself. It never did, of course; it took about thirty years to sell off all 250 copies of "Deeds of the Ever Glorious".

Personally, I think Phil would have been delighted to have the modern version of the Internet to work with; he could have done anything he'd wanted to, put it up on his own website, and sold the PDFs or files with little or no overhead. Back in our day, the economic and production hurdles to get anything published - let alone marketed! - were why there never were any really economically viable Tekumel products. Aside from EPT itself, of course, but that was - by Brian Blume's own statement - the right product in the right place at the right time. The only other product that sold well (for the game industry, of course) was "Ebon Bindings", with about 1,000 of the four editions being sold over the decades.

Miniatures were a very different story, but that was because of the very intense marketing effort and the very low barriers to having product. Back in the day, Phil had a very hard time getting his head around the notion that the lead was what was supporting his books, not the other way around.

These days, it's a very different story; I've watched all too many Kickstarters founder over the high costs of miniatures production. It's a very different market, and a very different hobby these days.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 01, 2016, 08:54:57 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895282
The 'weirdest' I've ever seen? The Sudanese throwing axe Phil had up on his dining room wall (southeast corner, on the plate rail). Yes, there was a handle, and a good thing, too; you would not have known where to pick the thing up, otherwise...

I remember that thing.  You can't MAKE stuff like that up.  And against non-metal-armored targets it would have been very, very nasty.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 01, 2016, 09:12:53 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895253
Happy Easter from a Western schismatic! ;)


Thank you Glorious General. As we say in the old country: Навистина воскресе! (Truly, He has risen).

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 01, 2016, 09:14:30 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895254
Oh, I know why COMPANIES do it.  I've just been amazed at the hostility I've encountered from fellow gamers when I say I have no interest in buying something.


I know what you mean. You'd think that they were printing the product themselves!

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 01, 2016, 09:23:46 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895263
Thank you; I had a good day yesterday, sorting my stocks of scale lumber - I have a pontoon bridge to build - and the foot is in decent shape. I try to stay off it on the weekends, and this - plus lots of water - seems to be helping.

Time estimate. Hmmm. Well, it all depends on my health and that of the Missus; as the only-able bodied person about the place, I have to do a lot more then I used to to keep things running. When I'm down, things come to a complete halt, sorry to say. Morale is also an issue, to be honest. I lost most of the past year, what with all the drama, but this thread is a large part of what keeps me going - I love to answer questions, as they let me tell stories, which in turn get me back to the writing. Same with my model building; I'm getting back onto several fun projects, scrapping out the remains of several abandoned ones, and generally having a pretty good time. Building things really recharges my batteries, which in turn feeds the writing.

So, an estimate? "God willing and the water don't rise", I'd expect some time this year for the final manuscript. Things are moving along very quickly, I am happy to be able to say.


Chirine,

A good weekend is a wondrous thing. We finally got some nice weather up here yesterday and I was able to cut the grass, to take a good look at the yard and see what's the damage from the winter, and what's needed to get it it up to speed. The Spring just won't come this year. Today barely reached 11, and it was a rainy, misty, damp cold day. Terrible day to grill, unless you have a steady supply of wine and beer on hand of course.:p
Stay the course. I for one find this thread great. Where else can you get TWO great contemporary sources? If you are willing to keep providing the answers, I am willing to keep asking the questions! I know that I am not the only one on this thread that feels this way.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 01, 2016, 09:24:19 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895271
Same here, on both points. I get The Look from people at the FLGS all the time. The staff doesn't do it; they know better. They'd also like to go back to the days when I'd drop $300 to $400 on a visit, but I don't play the brand name games and - to be honest - I've pretty much bought them out of everything that I really want. I do find the occasional delight that I pounce on, and everyone is happy...

Last time I spent a wad was when WoTC came out with the "Star Wars Spaceship Game" with some really nice, but expensive, miniatures.

I knew they were "collectible" miniatures (an idea I hate) but they were still nice Star Wars spaceships.  So one day over at Chez Thornley four of us, all long-time miniatures gamers, sat down for a game.

Worst excuse for a rule set I ever saw.  Range didn't matter, maneuver didn't matter, and there was only one ship in something like six sets I bought where facing mattered.  The combat system was "Roll this number (usually 14 to 16) on a d20."  Your ship had a bonus of +2 or +3, usually.

In other words, the entire game system was "Roll high numbers on a d20."

After about an hour I actually said, "Is it just my imagination, or does "tactics" in this game amount to "roll big numbers?" "  My compatriots agreed unanimously.

Haven't bought any gaming stuff since.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 01, 2016, 09:32:35 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895265
Agreed! And it's been a great day, too... :)


Today was wonderful, even though I drank too much wine and beer, ate too many kebobs, and had too much pecan pie (my all time favourite pie, right up there with apple pie), and scoffed one too many baclavas. :rolleyes: It's only once a year that I eat too much,  well actually twice if you include Christmas.:o She who must be feared was not impressed. Fortunately I'm not working tomorrow (rank doth have its privileges and all that rot) so I can finish off that last bottle of wine that is looking at me so mournfully as I type this reply. Ahh, one more dead soldier.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 01, 2016, 09:44:19 PM
Quote from: Bren;895112
"The politics of the university are so intense because the stakes are so low."
Wallace Stanley Sayre




Bren,


Never has a truer statement been said. Like the Glorious General, it was the "filth" in the Ivory Tower of Academics that kept me from making academia my career. Never in all my years have I met so many hypocritical, perfidious, snivelling, back-biting and down right nasty sods as when I was finishing my Masters. Even though I got accepted into a doctoral program I walked away from it. Some times I regret it, but then when I hear the stories some of my university professor friends tell me I feel vindicated.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 01, 2016, 09:56:02 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;895269


Happy Easter!
И освен това, Христос Воскресе!

OK, I laughed at the quote at first.
Then I stopped and thought...
Then I laughed some more at the examples I'd just remembered.


Ви благодарам. Навистина воскресна!

My response to the quote from Bren was exactly the same as yours :D

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 01, 2016, 10:06:30 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895292
Last time I spent a wad was when WoTC came out with the "Star Wars Spaceship Game" with some really nice, but expensive, miniatures.

I knew they were "collectible" miniatures (an idea I hate) but they were still nice Star Wars spaceships.  So one day over at Chez Thornley four of us, all long-time miniatures gamers, sat down for a game.

Worst excuse for a rule set I ever saw.  Range didn't matter, maneuver didn't matter, and there was only one ship in something like six sets I bought where facing mattered.  The combat system was "Roll this number (usually 14 to 16) on a d20."  Your ship had a bonus of +2 or +3, usually.

In other words, the entire game system was "Roll high numbers on a d20."

After about an hour I actually said, "Is it just my imagination, or does "tactics" in this game amount to "roll big numbers?" "  My compatriots agreed unanimously.

Haven't bought any gaming stuff since.


I have never heard of this game, but Star Wars: X-Wing, and Star Trek: Attack Wing, both by Wiz Kids, are quite good. They're the closest I get to actual miniature wargaming these days, and the minis are pre-painted and pretty detailed. Really good beer and pretzel games IMO, but still not as fun as Battletech. Those old lead miniatures sure fly when you give them a little help :rolleyes:.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 01, 2016, 11:00:21 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;895269
... after all, Edmonton might be closer to some of you than some place in Austin
35 hours of driving to Edmonton; 22.5 hours driving to Austin...Austin is closer. Not close. But closer.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 01, 2016, 11:06:41 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895284
Miniatures were a very different story, but that was because of the very intense marketing effort and the very low barriers to having product.
Plus the miniatures were cool looking. I modified one for a favored PC in Glorantha and often have fun pulling out my squad of Ssu. They've occasionally substituted as centaurs in a Mythic Greek game and most recently one was  used as a multi-armed bartender in my Star Wars campaign.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 01, 2016, 11:07:48 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895278
(I don't really disagree with the theology of the filioque, but the council that added it was not ecumenical in any meaningful sense.)

Separation in the Church is a wound in the body of Christ.
Zounds that's terrible.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 11:07:58 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895285
I remember that thing.  You can't MAKE stuff like that up.  And against non-metal-armored targets it would have been very, very nasty.


And since most of the people in that part of the world didn't have armor - well, metal armor, although leather was unusual - it made sense. He had some really weird stuff, he did... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 11:10:16 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;895291
Chirine,

A good weekend is a wondrous thing. We finally got some nice weather up here yesterday and I was able to cut the grass, to take a good look at the yard and see what's the damage from the winter, and what's needed to get it it up to speed. The Spring just won't come this year. Today barely reached 11, and it was a rainy, misty, damp cold day. Terrible day to grill, unless you have a steady supply of wine and beer on hand of course.:p
Stay the course. I for one find this thread great. Where else can you get TWO great contemporary sources? If you are willing to keep providing the answers, I am willing to keep asking the questions! I know that I am not the only one on this thread that feels this way.

Shemek


Thank you for the vote of confidence! I keep trying to be useful, that's all.

Great weather here, today; got out on a little excursion and got groceries bought. Very quiet, and that's the way I like it. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 01, 2016, 11:12:35 PM
Well, take care of yourself, nobody else is going to.  Glad it's been a good weekend for you.  Keep drinking water; I think "enough sleep" and "enough water" are probably the two greatest health care shortages in US society today.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 11:13:42 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895292
Last time I spent a wad was when WoTC came out with the "Star Wars Spaceship Game" with some really nice, but expensive, miniatures.

I knew they were "collectible" miniatures (an idea I hate) but they were still nice Star Wars spaceships.  So one day over at Chez Thornley four of us, all long-time miniatures gamers, sat down for a game.

Worst excuse for a rule set I ever saw.  Range didn't matter, maneuver didn't matter, and there was only one ship in something like six sets I bought where facing mattered.  The combat system was "Roll this number (usually 14 to 16) on a d20."  Your ship had a bonus of +2 or +3, usually.

In other words, the entire game system was "Roll high numbers on a d20."

After about an hour I actually said, "Is it just my imagination, or does "tactics" in this game amount to "roll big numbers?" "  My compatriots agreed unanimously.

Haven't bought any gaming stuff since.


'Scuse me while me eyes bulge out. No ranges, no maneuvers, no facing? And this is a 'miniatures game'?

I have come to hate 'collectable', 'premium', and other such marketing hype words. just sell me the bleeding figure, will you?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 11:14:48 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;895294
Today was wonderful, even though I drank too much wine and beer, ate too many kebobs, and had too much pecan pie (my all time favourite pie, right up there with apple pie), and scoffed one too many baclavas. :rolleyes: It's only once a year that I eat too much,  well actually twice if you include Christmas.:o She who must be feared was not impressed. Fortunately I'm not working tomorrow (rank doth have its privileges and all that rot) so I can finish off that last bottle of wine that is looking at me so mournfully as I type this reply. Ahh, one more dead soldier.

Shemek


And what else are holidays for, if I may ask... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 01, 2016, 11:16:49 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;895297
Never has a truer statement been said. Like the Glorious General, it was the "filth" in the Ivory Tower of Academics that kept me from making academia my career. Never in all my years have I met so many hypocritical, perfidious, snivelling, back-biting and down right nasty sods as when I was finishing my Masters. Even though I got accepted into a doctoral program I walked away from it. Some times I regret it, but then when I hear the stories some of my university professor friends tell me I feel vindicated.
I like academics in the singular, but in departmental groups....:rolleyes: Now I'd like to say I left due to ethical concerns with the academic snakepit, but I didn't. Walking across campus while talking to myself (a thing I almost never, ever do) about some proof for abstract algebra or topology or some esoteric thing, I realized/admitted that I didn't particularly want to do research so getting a PhD was a poor career goal for me. Never have much regretted that decision.

Nice to hear from those who enjoyed Greek/Orthodox/Other date Easter. I was originally scheduled to join some friends, but they had to cancel. So I missed some really great Greek food and a day with fun friends and their fun family.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 11:17:20 PM
Quote from: Bren;895311
Plus the miniatures were cool looking. I modified one for a favored PC in Glorantha and often have fun pulling out my squad of Ssu. They've occasionally substituted as centaurs in a Mythic Greek game and most recently one was  used as a multi-armed bartender in my Star Wars campaign.


Agreed; that's why I love them, and have so much fun with them. Have you seen the new Dark Fable 'Temple of Set' figures? The Missus has allowed that she likes them, and may commit my bonus money to them...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 01, 2016, 11:19:36 PM
Hey All,

Just going back to a topic mentioned the other day. I found this link. Might be useful.
http://www.meetup.com/boardgames-316/ (http://)

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 01, 2016, 11:20:13 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895315
Well, take care of yourself, nobody else is going to.  Glad it's been a good weekend for you.  Keep drinking water; I think "enough sleep" and "enough water" are probably the two greatest health care shortages in US society today.


I'd agree with this. I'll be in bed right after I rescue Second Daughter - I do this every Saturday and Sunday - and I keep chugging fluids. It's been made clear to me that if I ever do go off on a convention trip again, no matter where, I'm going to have a Production Assistant with me to make sure that I eat, drink, and sleep. And keeping the stress down is a given... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 01, 2016, 11:21:46 PM
Quote from: Bren;895318
I like academics in the singular, but in departmental groups....:rolleyes: Now I'd like to say I left due to ethical concerns with the academic snakepit, but I didn't. Walking across campus while talking to myself (a thing I almost never, ever do) about some proof for abstract algebra or topology or some esoteric thing, I realized/admitted that I didn't particularly want to do research so getting a PhD was a poor career goal for me. Never have much regretted that decision.

Nice to hear from those who enjoyed Greek/Orthodox/Other date Easter. I was originally scheduled to join some friends, but they had to cancel. So I missed some really great Greek food and a day with fun friends and their fun family.

There's always next year.:)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 01, 2016, 11:24:12 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895317
And what else are holidays for, if I may ask... :)


True, most Noble Chirine, true indeed. Now if only I could convince others that...:confused:

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 01, 2016, 11:28:23 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895321
It's been made clear to me that if I ever do go off on a convention trip again, no matter where, I'm going to have a Production Assistant with me to make sure that I eat, drink, and sleep. And keeping the stress down is a given... :)

If you can get them to keep calling you sahib, or maybe effendi, boy you're in business then. BTW, what would the Tsolyani equivalent to effendi and sahib be?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 02, 2016, 12:08:51 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;895325
If you can get them to keep calling you sahib, or maybe effendi, boy you're in business then. BTW, what would the Tsolyani equivalent to effendi and sahib be?

Shemek

Well, I'd have to look it up; if they were talking to me, it's something like 'Gospodin'; to my alter ego, it'd be 'Lord'. If Kathy was there, it'd be 'Ma'am'; Vrisa would be 'Highborn'. If Gronan was there, it'd be 'sir' maybe, and 'Glorious General' otherwise. We did this kind of thing all the time at Phil's; you knew instantly who you were talking to, with no pause in the flow of the game.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 02, 2016, 12:30:38 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895316
'Scuse me while me eyes bulge out. No ranges, no maneuvers, no facing? And this is a 'miniatures game'?

I have come to hate 'collectable', 'premium', and other such marketing hype words. just sell me the bleeding figure, will you?

As as gamer, I loathe the idea of "collectible card games" like Magic the Gathering.  The more cards I buy, the better the chance of getting a rare powerful card?  Sod that.

As a marketer, I only wish I'd thought of it.  A license to coin Khaitars.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 02, 2016, 12:59:16 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895263
Thank you; I had a good day yesterday, sorting my stocks of scale lumber - I have a pontoon bridge to build - and the foot is in decent shape. I try to stay off it on the weekends, and this - plus lots of water - seems to be helping.

Time estimate. Hmmm. Well, it all depends on my health and that of the Missus; as the only-able bodied person about the place, I have to do a lot more then I used to to keep things running. When I'm down, things come to a complete halt, sorry to say. Morale is also an issue, to be honest. I lost most of the past year, what with all the drama, but this thread is a large part of what keeps me going - I love to answer questions, as they let me tell stories, which in turn get me back to the writing. Same with my model building; I'm getting back onto several fun projects, scrapping out the remains of several abandoned ones, and generally having a pretty good time. Building things really recharges my batteries, which in turn feeds the writing.

So, an estimate? "God willing and the water don't rise", I'd expect some time this year for the final manuscript. Things are moving along very quickly, I am happy to be able to say.


Well may the Lord keep the water low, and help the words of Uncle Chirine flow...

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 02, 2016, 01:03:39 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895319
Agreed; that's why I love them, and have so much fun with them. Have you seen the new Dark Fable 'Temple of Set' figures? The Missus has allowed that she likes them, and may commit my bonus money to them...
I think so. Didn't you have a link to them either here or on your blog? But feel free to post it again. They were cool. Assuming I'm remembering the right minis.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;895322
There's always next year.:)
Hope so, though we might not be in the same location then. I've been fortunate to have gotten several Greek Easter feasts over the last 6 years with two different sets of friends (one set in England and one here in Maryland, USA).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 02, 2016, 09:03:28 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895267
Ssuganar is kind of flat as a destination, but Ssu... Whew!!! Scary!!!

Is "Ssuganar" the long form of "Ssu city"?
 
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895278
Well, in 1987 or 1989, the Episcopal Church of the US (of which I am a member) resolved that in the next revision of the Book of Common Prayer the "filioque" would be removed.  And the discussions for the next revision are beginning.

(I don't really disagree with the theology of the filioque, but the council that added it was not ecumenical in any meaningful sense.)

Separation in the Church is a wound in the body of Christ.

What do you know? Maybe there is hope for removing the separation some day.
And I do agree on it being harmful:). Though, amusingly, it might have been helpful for our societies, too.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895281

Poor Phil, may his soul be treated gently, had trouble with every publisher he ever worked with, it seems.  I wonder if that was his academia background?  Though I love studying history, every time I regret not pursuing it as a career I reflect on everything I've learned, from a LOT of people, about what a snake pit academia is.

Agreed on the snake pit, and on studying history;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;895282
I think we could keep it going all week - it's the comedy circuit for us!

The 'weirdest' on Tekumel? Probably the Ssu 'broadsword', as it's got edges all over the place. The 'weirdest' I've ever seen? The Sudanese throwing axe Phil had up on his dining room wall (southeast corner, on the plate rail). Yes, there was a handle, and a good thing, too; you would not have known where to pick the thing up, otherwise...

I have one word on this axe, Uncle...
Pictures;)?

I found this.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]13[/ATTACH]
Though that one is from the British Museum, so I doubt it would have the exact same replica.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;895284
I keep hanging in there. The layout will arise, some day. I have to do something with all that stuff...

Agreed about Phil's troubles with his publishers. He was voted "Most Difficult Author in the Game Industry" by GAMA; Mike Stackpole ran the 'awards' ceremony, and I got to get up and give the acceptance speech. I still have the 'Ralphie' in the basement; they'd managed to get a heap of the Ralph Cramden figures from the TSR "Honeymooners" board game, and Stackpole used those as the 'trophy'.

Phil's basic problem with 'external' publishers was that they ran their businesses as businesses, and were in business to make money. Phil had lived and worked in academia for almost all his working life, and tended to think of 'publishers' as being like the in-house press shop that most universities had.

I kinda suspected that much.

Quote
Personally, I think Phil would have been delighted to have the modern version of the Internet to work with; he could have done anything he'd wanted to, put it up on his own website, and sold the PDFs or files with little or no overhead. Back in our day, the economic and production hurdles to get anything published - let alone marketed! - were why there never were any really economically viable Tekumel products. Aside from EPT itself, of course, but that was - by Brian Blume's own statement - the right product in the right place at the right time. The only other product that sold well (for the game industry, of course) was "Ebon Bindings", with about 1,000 of the four editions being sold over the decades.

It would have saved us so much issues!
Though it also might have precluded Tekumel ever getting as widespread as it did.

Quote
Miniatures were a very different story, but that was because of the very intense marketing effort and the very low barriers to having product. Back in the day, Phil had a very hard time getting his head around the notion that the lead was what was supporting his books, not the other way around.

To be honest, I don't understand it, either. It sounds to me like Star Wars miniatures netting more than the Star Wars movies.
I know how the books sold; but it doesn't make sense to me.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895285
I remember that thing.  You can't MAKE stuff like that up.  And against non-metal-armored targets it would have been very, very nasty.

How do you estimate it would fare against leather?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895292
Last time I spent a wad was when WoTC came out with the "Star Wars Spaceship Game" with some really nice, but expensive, miniatures.

I knew they were "collectible" miniatures (an idea I hate) but they were still nice Star Wars spaceships.  So one day over at Chez Thornley four of us, all long-time miniatures gamers, sat down for a game.

Worst excuse for a rule set I ever saw.  Range didn't matter, maneuver didn't matter, and there was only one ship in something like six sets I bought where facing mattered.  The combat system was "Roll this number (usually 14 to 16) on a d20."  Your ship had a bonus of +2 or +3, usually.

In other words, the entire game system was "Roll high numbers on a d20."

After about an hour I actually said, "Is it just my imagination, or does "tactics" in this game amount to "roll big numbers?" "  My compatriots agreed unanimously.

Haven't bought any gaming stuff since.

OK, it's funny, but I've actually seen a couple miniature games like this. They're actually what got me to give up on miniatures.
But these are different games, because I've never seen Star Wars miniatures in the real world...

I'm afraid it's more widespread than you think.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;895294
Today was wonderful, even though I drank too much wine and beer, ate too many kebobs, and had too much pecan pie (my all time favourite pie, right up there with apple pie), and scoffed one too many baclavas. :rolleyes: It's only once a year that I eat too much,  well actually twice if you include Christmas.:o She who must be feared was not impressed. Fortunately I'm not working tomorrow (rank doth have its privileges and all that rot) so I can finish off that last bottle of wine that is looking at me so mournfully as I type this reply. Ahh, one more dead soldier.

Shemek

Well...I calculated the family has eaten 5 Cozonacs in 20 hours, the lion share being on me, and there were something like 72 Easter eggs, but we're down to something like less than 20 remaining.
I'm going to need strict diet after Gergyovden (St. George's Day).

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;895297
Bren,

Never has a truer statement been said. Like the Glorious General, it was the "filth" in the Ivory Tower of Academics that kept me from making academia my career. Never in all my years have I met so many hypocritical, perfidious, snivelling, back-biting and down right nasty sods as when I was finishing my Masters. Even though I got accepted into a doctoral program I walked away from it. Some times I regret it, but then when I hear the stories some of my university professor friends tell me I feel vindicated.

Shemek

That's also what prevented me; I admit I'm sometimes wondering whether I wasn't wrong.
I might still go for a PhD, if I decide to move abroad.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;895298
Ви благодарам. Навистина воскресна!

My response to the quote from Bren was exactly the same as yours :D

Shemek

Няма защо!
Not surprised about your reaction. It makes sense.

Quote from: Bren;895308
35 hours of driving to Edmonton; 22.5 hours driving to Austin...Austin is closer. Not close. But closer.

I actually don't know your location, Bren. You can google it along with "boardgame cafe", and find one within the area.
Again, that was an example for everyone in the thread.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;895313
And since most of the people in that part of the world didn't have armor - well, metal armor, although leather was unusual - it made sense. He had some really weird stuff, he did... :)

Don't you mean "wasn't unusual"?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895315
Well, take care of yourself, nobody else is going to.  Glad it's been a good weekend for you.  Keep drinking water; I think "enough sleep" and "enough water" are probably the two greatest health care shortages in US society today.

Probably true in all societies today...

Quote from: Bren;895318
I like academics in the singular, but in departmental groups....:rolleyes: Now I'd like to say I left due to ethical concerns with the academic snakepit, but I didn't. Walking across campus while talking to myself (a thing I almost never, ever do) about some proof for abstract algebra or topology or some esoteric thing, I realized/admitted that I didn't particularly want to do research so getting a PhD was a poor career goal for me. Never have much regretted that decision.

Nice to hear from those who enjoyed Greek/Orthodox/Other date Easter. I was originally scheduled to join some friends, but they had to cancel. So I missed some really great Greek food and a day with fun friends and their fun family.

Well, glad you found out it doesn't make you happy.

And the food from our region is fun. I've lately adopted a Greek recipe which I called "Tonight, we eat Chthulhu"!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;895339
Well, I'd have to look it up; if they were talking to me, it's something like 'Gospodin'; to my alter ego, it'd be 'Lord'. If Kathy was there, it'd be 'Ma'am'; Vrisa would be 'Highborn'. If Gronan was there, it'd be 'sir' maybe, and 'Glorious General' otherwise. We did this kind of thing all the time at Phil's; you knew instantly who you were talking to, with no pause in the flow of the game.

You'd be "gospodin" here as well, among non-gamers. It's how we translate "mister", or any other polite title for a male:p!
(Yes, it has a different meaning in Russian, but the same word means different things. Then again, there are more striking examples of words changing their meaning).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895347
As as gamer, I loathe the idea of "collectible card games" like Magic the Gathering.  The more cards I buy, the better the chance of getting a rare powerful card?  Sod that.

As a marketer, I only wish I'd thought of it.  A license to coin Khaitars.

Well, there are precedents in poker. After all, if I can raise enough that you can't cover my bet, you don't even get to use your cards, right;)?
CCGs are like this. If I've thrown enough money on the counter, you're just going to be splattered by all the cards I've got.
(Or you're going to destroy me with a cheap blue deck, in Magic. Fun fact: the blue cards make me thing of Ksarul, the Blue Room's Prince!)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 02, 2016, 12:46:16 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;895388
But these are different games, because I've never seen Star Wars miniatures in the real world...
You poor deprived man. ;-)
   
Quote
I actually don't know your location, Bren.
Maryland, USA. It says so beneath my avatar.

Quote
You can google it along with "boardgame cafe", and find one within the area.
There’s one called the Board and Brew that’s less than an hour away. I started to get excited, then I realized that “Brew” mean coffee. So sad now. So sad.
 
Quote
And the food from our region is fun. I've lately adopted a Greek recipe which I called "Tonight, we eat Chthulhu"!
Squid or octopus?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 02, 2016, 04:01:23 PM
Quote from: Bren;895425
You poor deprived man. ;-)
From Gronan's description, I don't feel like I missed anything:).

Quote
Maryland, USA. It says so beneath my avatar.
It does, it's just easy to miss when you're on a phone.

Quote
There’s one called the Board and Brew that’s less than an hour away. I started to get excited, then I realized that “Brew” mean coffee. So sad now. So sad.
What do you think "cafe" means, if not "coffee":D?

Anyway, they say they offer "gourmet cappuccino, homemade treats or our small plates menu. Whatever you're in the mood for, we have just the thing!"

Quote
Squid or octopus?
Octopus, you got that one right:D.

And here's an article that might be relevant.
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2014/11/board-game-bars/382828/
And from me, drinking coffee and playing tabletp[op games obviously go well together. The most classical thing to play in a coffee shop is, of course, backgammon;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on May 02, 2016, 04:41:03 PM
What happened to all the N'luss/Dragon Warriors who lived in the lands they conquered? They conquered a huge swath of land and then got overthrown and all that is left is the country of N'luss. Were they all slaughtered in every land they conquered or did they all pack it up and retreat when their armies were defeated? Are there any enclaves of Nluss descendants in odd places here or there, whose ancestors liked where they lived and decided not to move "home"? Given their physical differences they would certainly stand out. Did they interbreed with the inhabitants of the lands they conquered at all? If any stayed behind in any way, seems like there should be some towns or provinces with large numbers of NBA sized folks wandering about but I haven't seen any reference to the fact.

Do each of the Gods have a favorite weapon? If so what?

I know you are a military sorcerer and that your spell list was never released. Does this mean you are one of the casters who work in teams to cast spells or are you more of an independent operator on the battlefield? If you were not one of the team guys can you explain the difference? Can you give a rough run down of your spell corpus compared to a normal spell caster? How about a rough power comparison between a normal pc caster and a combat team? Is it sort of linear? Exponential? I know you started out as a military sorcerer but how would one (both the combat team types or an independent one if they are different) become one as opposed to being a normal caster? Do you have to be a certain circle or do they just put you on that path to begin with?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 02, 2016, 04:59:49 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;895451
From Gronan's description, I don't feel like I missed anything:).
I read that as the game sucked. There are lots of nice Star Wars minis and figures. I have a moderate sized collection.

Quote
What do you think "cafe" means, if not "coffee":D?
Brew in English could indicate beer or coffee. I'm don't drink coffee. But on checking further, they do serve beer. So I'm happy again. They even have twice weekly happy hours with specials on craft beers.

Quote
Octopus, you got that one right:D.
Is it easy to get fresh seafood in Sofia?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 02, 2016, 05:38:41 PM
Quote from: Bren;895459


Brew in English could indicate beer or coffee.



Or tea...:)

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 02, 2016, 06:06:38 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;895468
Or tea...:)

Shemek
True. I had not considered that since coffee and beer drinking each dominate tea drinking here in the USA and I did not notice brewed tea highlighted on their web site.

Annual consumption
146 billion cups of coffee
50 billion pints of beer (note for metric users, 1 pint = 2 cups)
43 billion cups of tea (a lot of this tea will be iced, not hot and 19 billion of those cups are ready to drink tea which is not "fresh brewed")

Of course things probably are different in Pechano.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 02, 2016, 07:37:45 PM
Quote from: Bren;895469
True. I had not considered that since coffee and beer drinking each dominate tea drinking here in the USA and I did not notice brewed tea highlighted on their web site.

Annual consumption
146 billion cups of coffee
50 billion pints of beer (note for metric users, 1 pint = 2 cups)
43 billion cups of tea (a lot of this tea will be iced, not hot and 19 billion of those cups are ready to drink tea which is not "fresh brewed")

Of course things probably are different in Pechano.


[ATTACH=CONFIG]15[/ATTACH]

So, how many billion cups of Chumetl do you reckon they consume in Tsolyanu per annum?

Shemek?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 02, 2016, 07:38:37 PM
Quote from: Bren;895469


Of course things probably are different in Pechano.


Could be......:rolleyes:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 02, 2016, 07:42:01 PM
Quote from: Bren;895459
I read that as the game sucked. There are lots of nice Star Wars minis and figures. I have a moderate sized collection.
Maybe there are. But I'm not really interested in the setting (due to talking a bit too much with setting purists:)).
Hence, these are at best "just minis" to me.

Quote
Brew in English could indicate beer or coffee. I'm don't drink coffee. But on checking further, they do serve beer. So I'm happy again. They even have twice weekly happy hours with specials on craft beers.
Well, the real question is, what tea do you prefer:D?

Quote
Is it easy to get fresh seafood in Sofia?
I admit Chthulhu was frozen when I bought him:p!
But yeah, getting fresh anything is certainly possible - there are "fish shops" where they're only selling nothing but fish and seafood;).

Quote from: Bren;895469
True. I had not considered that since coffee and beer drinking each dominate tea drinking here in the USA.
:eek:
Drinking more of anything than you drink tea? That's, like, barbaric, man:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 02, 2016, 08:37:00 PM
Quote from: Bren;895459
I read that as the game sucked. There are lots of nice Star Wars minis and figures. I have a moderate sized collection.

Precisely.  The miniatures are lovely, the rules stink worse than three feet up Jabba the Hutt's ass.  (Many Bothans died to bring us this information.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 02, 2016, 10:04:03 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;895481
Well, the real question is, what tea do you prefer:D?
That depends. I like a lot of different teas. The tea that I drink the most of is Yorkshire Red (or the decaffeinated version if I have tea at night).

Quote
But yeah, getting fresh anything is certainly possible - there are "fish shops" where they're only selling nothing but fish and seafood;).
Good seafood is one of Maryland's attractions. Good crabcakes are heavenly.

Quote
Drinking more of anything than you drink tea? That's, like, barbaric, man:D!
I do drink more beer than I do tea. My wife makes up though so as a household Tea > Beer > > > Coffee.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 02, 2016, 10:05:49 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;895490
Precisely.  The miniatures are lovely, the rules stink worse than three feet up Jabba the Hutt's ass.  (Many Bothans died to bring us this information.)
West End Games had an add on for D6 for minis and for ships (I think the ship version was Star Warriors). Never played either, but they seemed akin to greatly simplified versions of the D6 rules.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 03, 2016, 06:49:54 AM
Quote from: Bren;895503
That depends. I like a lot of different teas. The tea that I drink the most of is Yorkshire Red (or the decaffeinated version if I have tea at night).
It's a good brew. I prefer White tea with cinnamon flavour, though.

Quote
Good seafood is one of Maryland's attractions. Good crabcakes are heavenly.
I'm not a big lover of seafood, but I agree. Give me fish, though:)!

Quote
I do drink more beer than I do tea. My wife makes up though so as a household Tea > Beer > > > Coffee.
Compliments to your wife! She's saving your household from the depths of barbarism;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 03, 2016, 12:58:58 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;895551
Compliments to your wife! She's saving your household from the depths of barbarism;)!
Undoubtedly.
Title: inimical races
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 03, 2016, 07:02:11 PM
Chirine,

I was on the old Blue Room forum recently looking for some last minute info on Ssu to use in my upcoming game, and I came upon this interesting post by Phil. I have only included part of it:

"The Pechani have always had a sort of "honourable enemy" relationship with the Grey Ssu, ...Communication between Ssu and humans was done, as it is today, with gestures. Neither side speaks the other's language. The Pechani are adept at this. They still fight the Ssu regularly but have occasional non-hostile contacts as well."

Out of curiosity, did the OTNG ever encounter any of the inimical races and "talk" instead of fight?
How common of an adversary were the Ssu in Phil's campaign(s)?  
You mentioned that you once briefly adventured in a sealed city of the Shunned Ones. What were they like to play against? Did you have mass battles with them? What was the architecture like in this city? The Shunned Ones for me were always my favourite baddies on Tekumel and, surprisingly, if memory serves I don't think that I have ever used them in an encounter. I'll have to check my notes to make sure, but if that's right I better rectify that soon.... Any further info on them you could share would be appreciated.


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 04, 2016, 02:27:30 AM
Quote from: Bren;895355
I think so. Didn't you have a link to them either here or on your blog? But feel free to post it again. They were cool. Assuming I'm remembering the right minis.


To hear is to obey...

http://www.darkfableminiatures.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html (http://www.darkfableminiatures.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 04, 2016, 02:33:20 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;895388
Is "Ssuganar" the long form of "Ssu city"?
 
I have one word on this axe, Uncle...
Pictures;)?

I found this.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]13[/ATTACH]
Though that one is from the British Museum, so I doubt it would have the exact same replica.

Don't you mean "wasn't unusual"?


Don't know; never stayed around the Su long enough to ask... :)

Yes; I'll dig it out for you.

The one in the center of the picture is pretty close to the one hat Phil had.

No. Leather armor was unusual in the Sudan; mail was used, but usually by wealthy cavalry types. The ordinary guy usually had a spear, a rhino-hide small shield or buckler, and maybe a broadsword.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 04, 2016, 02:40:20 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;895455
What happened to all the N'luss/Dragon Warriors who lived in the lands they conquered? They conquered a huge swath of land and then got overthrown and all that is left is the country of N'luss. Were they all slaughtered in every land they conquered or did they all pack it up and retreat when their armies were defeated? Are there any enclaves of Nluss descendants in odd places here or there, whose ancestors liked where they lived and decided not to move "home"? Given their physical differences they would certainly stand out. Did they interbreed with the inhabitants of the lands they conquered at all? If any stayed behind in any way, seems like there should be some towns or provinces with large numbers of NBA sized folks wandering about but I haven't seen any reference to the fact.


Two replies for two big questions!

The 'empire' of the Dragon Lords was less an empire then a bunch of warbands occupying somebody's land. When the tide of conquest ebbed, a lot of them did indeed pack up and move back to the mountains where they could continue feuding and squabbling; think the Scottish Highlands. However, there are enclaves - Fasiltum, for example. This is inhabited by the Vriddi, who used to be the Ebbrida of the Dragon Lords. They are still noticeably taller them most Tsolyani, too. There is also an enclave on the northern island of Vridu, too, and they are also taller then your usual Yan Koryani.

And yes, they did interbreed with the locals; anyone taller then usual is said to have 'northern blood'.

I think Phil did touch on this in his novels, but it's pretty buried in the text.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 04, 2016, 02:58:30 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;895455

Do each of the Gods have a favorite weapon? If so what?

I know you are a military sorcerer and that your spell list was never released. Does this mean you are one of the casters who work in teams to cast spells or are you more of an independent operator on the battlefield? If you were not one of the team guys can you explain the difference? Can you give a rough run down of your spell corpus compared to a normal spell caster? How about a rough power comparison between a normal pc caster and a combat team? Is it sort of linear? Exponential? I know you started out as a military sorcerer but how would one (both the combat team types or an independent one if they are different) become one as opposed to being a normal caster? Do you have to be a certain circle or do they just put you on that path to begin with?


No idea, actually; you'd have to look in the literature. Never got the gods cheesed off enough at us that they'd haul out the weapons, so we didn't run into this issue.

This gets a little complicated. My stats in EPT are: STR 86 INT 98 CON 97 PSY 00 DEX 89 Com 12 and Phil told me that I was a magic-user or else. Since I picked Lord Vimuhla, Phil suggested that I be a military priest. (I wish that John Tiehen's "Art of Tactical Sorcery" was still in print - it's the best thing on the subject.) Phil just kind of turned me loose on this, and I worked up the spell list and stuff; basically, I have the usual third to fifth level spells, but after that it's all the Big Boom stuff; it's a career track in the temple, and if you have good enough skills then the Temple will give you the training. From there, you'll be sent off to one of the legions that the Temple supports - there are Hnalla military priests, for example.

All of the military priests share the same basic military spells. There are something like five each of attacking and defending spells. Look at any of the miniatures rules, or I can get them for you. Normally, most military priests are part of a team, as you mention, as they can then get better and bigger booms on target. For the Doomkill, for example, the military team ups the results by a factor of ten; normal range is 240 inches on the table in EPT, and that really doesn't change - the usual military range is 1 Km on the ground, or 1m in my rules. My spells, when I'm doing my thing and assuming that I'm in my battle armor (which serves as a focus for my spells, and takes the place of the full team), have effects halfway between the usual MUs and the military ones - so my Big Doomkill is about 30" range in EPT, with a factor of five as the multiplier. I didn't work in a team, in any of our games; I was always off on 'special duties' or being a staff officer. The one battle where I had to be the Big Boom Delivery System, I was working on my own.

Two things: Use of military magic, of any kind, drains all of the other-planar energy in a 1 Km circle centered on the team or the individual; once you run through what power points the rules give you, that's it - no magic at all, until the next day. Secondly, as a member of the Incandescent Blaze Society of the Temple of Vimuhla, I do have a spell that could best be described as a GM's Special - The Eye of the Flame. I used it at Third Mar, as we really needed the help.

Does any of this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 04, 2016, 03:08:54 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;895678

I was on the old Blue Room forum recently looking for some last minute info on Ssu to use in my upcoming game, and I came upon this interesting post by Phil. I have only included part of it:

"The Pechani have always had a sort of "honourable enemy" relationship with the Grey Ssu, ...Communication between Ssu and humans was done, as it is today, with gestures. Neither side speaks the other's language. The Pechani are adept at this. They still fight the Ssu regularly but have occasional non-hostile contacts as well."

Out of curiosity, did the OTNG ever encounter any of the inimical races and "talk" instead of fight?
How common of an adversary were the Ssu in Phil's campaign(s)?  
You mentioned that you once briefly adventured in a sealed city of the Shunned Ones. What were they like to play against? Did you have mass battles with them? What was the architecture like in this city? The Shunned Ones for me were always my favourite baddies on Tekumel and, surprisingly, if memory serves I don't think that I have ever used them in an encounter. I'll have to check my notes to make sure, but if that's right I better rectify that soon.... Any further info on them you could share would be appreciated.

Shemek


This is why the Blue Room Archive is so useful - it's Phil answering questions post-Sourcebook. Long-time fan Alva Hardison took the time to collate all of Phil's posts into the S&G Sourcebook, making an 'Extended Sourcebook' that I use all the time.

No, we did not. It was always a tactically 'fight or flight' situation, in the Underwords, tubeway car stations, or other such areas. We never had the time for any sort of non-violent interaction with any of them, as it was normally a 'them or us' situation.

We ran into Ssu about 30% of the time in the Underworlds, Hlyss about 10 to 15%, and Shunned Ones about 5%. We had mass battles with the Ssu and Hlyss, but never with the Shunned Ones; that was usually 'skirmish' or 'party' fighting. The domes are domes, and the buildings are open topped so that their atmosphere circulates. I'd describe the 'decor' as sort of 'early space station', with lots of fabricated walls and doors. No wood; it's all either concrete or plastic material. Very little metal, but no surprise there. Playing against them was the usual - they were just as smart and fast as we were, especially on their home grounds.

Does this help, any?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 04, 2016, 09:50:20 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895718
Don't know; never stayed around the Su long enough to ask... :)

Understandable, that...:)

Quote
Yes; I'll dig it out for you.

Thank you, Uncle!

Quote
The one in the center of the picture is pretty close to the one hat Phil had.

It's as Gronan said - good thing the iron piece has a handle...;)

Quote
No. Leather armor was unusual in the Sudan; mail was used, but usually by wealthy cavalry types. The ordinary guy usually had a spear, a rhino-hide small shield or buckler, and maybe a broadsword.

Interesting, that. What I remembered was that Kaskara (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaskara) broadswords were really popular in Sudan.
One would have thought that a society that has arms as this one would like some light armour, too, I wonder why that wasn't the case!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 04, 2016, 05:58:00 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895717
To hear is to obey...

http://www.darkfableminiatures.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html (http://www.darkfableminiatures.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html)
Yes. That was what I remembered. Thanks! :cool: Those minis are cool.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 04, 2016, 08:43:31 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895728
This is why the Blue Room Archive is so useful - it's Phil answering questions post-Sourcebook. Long-time fan Alva Hardison took the time to collate all of Phil's posts into the S&G Sourcebook, making an 'Extended Sourcebook' that I use all the time.

No, we did not. It was always a tactically 'fight or flight' situation, in the Underwords, tubeway car stations, or other such areas. We never had the time for any sort of non-violent interaction with any of them, as it was normally a 'them or us' situation.

We ran into Ssu about 30% of the time in the Underworlds, Hlyss about 10 to 15%, and Shunned Ones about 5%. We had mass battles with the Ssu and Hlyss, but never with the Shunned Ones; that was usually 'skirmish' or 'party' fighting. The domes are domes, and the buildings are open topped so that their atmosphere circulates. I'd describe the 'decor' as sort of 'early space station', with lots of fabricated walls and doors. No wood; it's all either concrete or plastic material. Very little metal, but no surprise there. Playing against them was the usual - they were just as smart and fast as we were, especially on their home grounds.

Does this help, any?

Thank you for the info. I kind of had the same image in my mind's eye regarding the Shunned Ones "decor. " I'll probably use 1930's and 1940's "retro futuristic" motifs for my inspiration.
Any DM running a Tekumel campaign has to use the Blue Room to fill in the gaps and get ideas. It's a font of information right from the horse's mouth (the Chlen's mouth?), so to speak. I use it all the time. Super resource.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 05, 2016, 02:27:49 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;895944
Thank you for the info. I kind of had the same image in my mind's eye regarding the Shunned Ones "decor. " I'll probably use 1930's and 1940's "retro futuristic" motifs for my inspiration.

Shemek


Oh, yes; good idea! Phil's vision of what Humanspace looked like was pretty much the 1939 World's Fair; Streamline Art Deco Moderne. I've collected a lot of images - amd stuff! - from that era, so as to be able to show people what he talked about. Movies, too!

I do like using 'period' decor in games. I use Ancient Egyptian, like Phil did, for the Engsvanyali period, as it has that timeless look of an eternal empire - as well as the formalism that the Priest-kings loved. Bednjallan as always been Meso-American in style for me, as the 'earlier' and more dynamic look seems to fit them better. I like to have 'decor' from these period for the game table - I certainly do understand the "Theater of the Mind' approach that Gronan mentioned in the thread on Virtual Table Tops, but that's not an approach I would use in my play. Having the visual cues for players is a very important part of my game, as it both tells them what's going on and encourages looking things up, is a lot of fun for me.

I will admit that I am aided and abetted by the Missus in this. Back when she could still walk for more then short distances, she went through the International Marketplace at the Minnesota State Fair, and came home with a huge bag of goodies. She'd gone on the last day of the event, and she was able get stuff at silly discounts as vendors didn't want to pack up all the left-overs; me, I can use little reed boats, assorted bits from Egyptian chess sets, leather dispatch bags, and papyrus documents. All part of the stuff I use to entertain and amaze.

And, he said with an air of quiet pride, it all will see fruition in the project I am now embarking on. I have now some fifty years of model-building, forty years of gaming, and more then a decade of show production and theatrical experience  to call upon. Strong men will faint; brave women will tremble; the OSR will develop a rash. My enemies, even unto the uttermost generations yet unborn, will curse even as they are cast into the pits of despair. When Gronan looks upon what what I have wrought, an agonized cry will be summoned forth from the very depths of his soul and rent from every fiber of his being - the ancient cry that, in days of yore, used to resound across the third floor of Coffman Union at meetings of the Conflict Simulation Association and which struck fear into the stout hearts of the gamers there as it announced that I was running another game: "YOOOOUUUU BASTAAAARD!!!" And behold! As this cry echoes across the universe, the very heavens will open, and the Great Gods (in alphabetical order) Dave, Gary, and Phil will speak unto the players and say, "Your goose is well and truly cooked."

And I - I, in this the moment of my greatest and penultimate triumph - will modestly acknowledge the the fame and ovation of the people, and with a shy and modest smile playing across my lips in the very best Boys' Own Paper tradition of manliness in the face of peril, will turn over the sand glass and speak the incantation that will shake the very foundations of reality and sunder the fabric of Time and Space: "Roll percentile dice for for Turn One, please."

Yes, it's going to be one of those games... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 05, 2016, 02:29:31 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;895944
Any DM running a Tekumel campaign has to use the Blue Room to fill in the gaps and get ideas. It's a font of information right from the horse's mouth (the Chlen's mouth?), so to speak. I use it all the time. Super resource.

Shemek[/QUOTE

Exactly! It's a very good way to go back in time and 'talk to' Phil directly, and get his personal take on why and how his world worked.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 05, 2016, 02:36:21 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;895795
Interesting, that. What I remembered was that Kaskara (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaskara) broadswords were really popular in Sudan.
One would have thought that a society that has arms as this one would like some light armour, too, I wonder why that wasn't the case!

Oh, yes, agreed! Phil had one of these, as as well as a rhino-hide buckler, and it give one pause to think about facing a horde of what amounted to 'sword and buckler' men. (He had a drop-dead beautiful steel Indo-Persian buckler too; it was al; chased and gilded.) You could tell that it had an effect on phil - a lot of people wore similar swords to this on over their shoulders - I certainly did, once I got into a legion that had them.

No idea why the Sudanese didn't use leather armor; I know that the Ancient Egyptians did, and there was a lot of contact i antiquity.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 05, 2016, 10:02:06 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;896012
Oh, yes; good idea! Phil's vision of what Humanspace looked like was pretty much the 1939 World's Fair; Streamline Art Deco Moderne. I've collected a lot of images - amd stuff! - from that era, so as to be able to show people what he talked about. Movies, too!

I do like using 'period' decor in games. I use Ancient Egyptian, like Phil did, for the Engsvanyali period, as it has that timeless look of an eternal empire - as well as the formalism that the Priest-kings loved. Bednjallan as always been Meso-American in style for me, as the 'earlier' and more dynamic look seems to fit them better. I like to have 'decor' from these period for the game table - I certainly do understand the "Theater of the Mind' approach that Gronan mentioned in the thread on Virtual Table Tops, but that's not an approach I would use in my play. Having the visual cues for players is a very important part of my game, as it both tells them what's going on and encourages looking things up, is a lot of fun for me.
You're much better at it than most of us ever will be, Uncle, and you're playing to your strengths. As well you should!

Quote
I will admit that I am aided and abetted by the Missus in this. Back when she could still walk for more then short distances, she went through the International Marketplace at the Minnesota State Fair, and came home with a huge bag of goodies. She'd gone on the last day of the event, and she was able get stuff at silly discounts as vendors didn't want to pack up all the left-overs; me, I can use little reed boats, assorted bits from Egyptian chess sets, leather dispatch bags, and papyrus documents. All part of the stuff I use to entertain and amaze.

And, he said with an air of quiet pride, it all will see fruition in the project I am now embarking on. I have now some fifty years of model-building, forty years of gaming, and more then a decade of show production and theatrical experience  to call upon. Strong men will faint; brave women will tremble; the OSR will develop a rash. My enemies, even unto the uttermost generations yet unborn, will curse even as they are cast into the pits of despair. When Gronan looks upon what what I have wrought, an agonized cry will be summoned forth from the very depths of his soul and rent from every fiber of his being - the ancient cry that, in days of yore, used to resound across the third floor of Coffman Union at meetings of the Conflict Simulation Association and which struck fear into the stout hearts of the gamers there as it announced that I was running another game: "YOOOOUUUU BASTAAAARD!!!" And behold! As this cry echoes across the universe, the very heavens will open, and the Great Gods (in alphabetical order) Dave, Gary, and Phil will speak unto the players and say, "Your goose is well and truly cooked."

And I - I, in this the moment of my greatest and penultimate triumph - will modestly acknowledge the the fame and ovation of the people, and with a shy and modest smile playing across my lips in the very best Boys' Own Paper tradition of manliness in the face of peril, will turn over the sand glass and speak the incantation that will shake the very foundations of reality and sunder the fabric of Time and Space: "Roll percentile dice for for Turn One, please."

Yes, it's going to be one of those games... :)
I can only say, the picture looked glorious:D!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;896015
Oh, yes, agreed! Phil had one of these, as as well as a rhino-hide buckler, and it give one pause to think about facing a horde of what amounted to 'sword and buckler' men. (He had a drop-dead beautiful steel Indo-Persian buckler too; it was al; chased and gilded.) You could tell that it had an effect on phil - a lot of people wore similar swords to this on over their shoulders - I certainly did, once I got into a legion that had them.

No idea why the Sudanese didn't use leather armor; I know that the Ancient Egyptians did, and there was a lot of contact i antiquity.
Phil certainly had props we can't hope to match:).
The part about the Sudanese is interesting. I might have to look into that, and it might spark an idea that the players will hate me for;).
I'll report any progress here, of course!

(Yes, I know, weird stuff inspires me. I ran a one-year campaign by making a note about a trade discount in the price of armour, and a group that would have interest in increasing said discount).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 05, 2016, 10:07:43 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;896012

Yes, it's going to be one of those games... :)

:D


(Also, I remember doing the "It's Sunday, buy this for less than cost so I don't have to pack it up again PLEASE!!!" at wargames cons...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 05, 2016, 10:10:55 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896093
:D


(Also, I remember doing the "It's Sunday, buy this for less than cost so I don't have to pack it up again PLEASE!!!" at wargames cons...)

I'm also taking notes to visit all cons at the last day, if possible.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 05, 2016, 11:36:00 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;896012

1.Oh, yes; good idea! Phil's vision of what Humanspace looked like was pretty much the 1939 World's Fair; Streamline Art Deco Moderne. I've collected a lot of images - amd stuff! - from that era, so as to be able to show people what he talked about. Movies, too!

2.I do like using 'period' decor in games. I use Ancient Egyptian, like Phil did, for the Engsvanyali period, as it has that timeless look of an eternal empire - as well as the formalism that the Priest-kings loved. Bednjallan as always been Meso-American in style for me, as the 'earlier' and more dynamic look seems to fit them better. I like to have 'decor' from these period for the game table - I certainly do understand the "Theater of the Mind' approach that Gronan mentioned in the thread on Virtual Table Tops, but that's not an approach I would use in my play. Having the visual cues for players is a very important part of my game, as it both tells them what's going on and encourages looking things up, is a lot of fun for me.

3.I will admit that I am aided and abetted by the Missus in this. Back when she could still walk for more then short distances, she went through the International Marketplace at the Minnesota State Fair, and came home with a huge bag of goodies. She'd gone on the last day of the event, and she was able get stuff at silly discounts as vendors didn't want to pack up all the left-overs; me, I can use little reed boats, assorted bits from Egyptian chess sets, leather dispatch bags, and papyrus documents. All part of the stuff I use to entertain and amaze.

4.And, he said with an air of quiet pride, it all will see fruition in the project I am now embarking on. I have now some fifty years of model-building, forty years of gaming, and more then a decade of show production and theatrical experience  to call upon. Strong men will faint; brave women will tremble; the OSR will develop a rash. My enemies, even unto the uttermost generations yet unborn, will curse even as they are cast into the pits of despair. When Gronan looks upon what what I have wrought, an agonized cry will be summoned forth from the very depths of his soul and rent from every fiber of his being - the ancient cry that, in days of yore, used to resound across the third floor of Coffman Union at meetings of the Conflict Simulation Association and which struck fear into the stout hearts of the gamers there as it announced that I was running another game: "YOOOOUUUU BASTAAAARD!!!" And behold! As this cry echoes across the universe, the very heavens will open, and the Great Gods (in alphabetical order) Dave, Gary, and Phil will speak unto the players and say, "Your goose is well and truly cooked."

And I - I, in this the moment of my greatest and penultimate triumph - will modestly acknowledge the the fame and ovation of the people, and with a shy and modest smile playing across my lips in the very best Boys' Own Paper tradition of manliness in the face of peril, will turn over the sand glass and speak the incantation that will shake the very foundations of reality and sunder the fabric of Time and Space: "Roll percentile dice for for Turn One, please."

Yes, it's going to be one of those games... :)


1. The beauty of the interweb! See, it does have some uses other than being a repository of porn, and mindless memes.;) Before discovering this thread I wouldn't have known that a large part of Tekumel's early roots came from the world of 1930's and 1940's sci-fi. Personally, I love the art-deco retro futurism of that period. I'm also always on the look out for suitable images to use. BTW, did you ever see the "Human Space Empires" web page? There is also a really nice set of Beta form rules which can be downloaded. I have been using the weapon stats for energy weapons, and what not, in my Tekumel campaign for some time now. Very easy to integrate into an EPT/1e AD&D based game.  

2. Me too. Currently, I am using a Mayan/Aztec fusion to represent the minions of the Pariah God worshipping city state that the party is up against. For the good guys I am using a medieval Burmese/Nepalese fusion. As this chapter of my Tekumel Campaign is set in the period of the Three States of the Triangle I figure that I've pretty well got free rein. Even created some new gods, as I figured the normal ones either wouldn't be present, or be in forms quite different than in a traditional Tekumel game.

I'm not sure what you mean by a " 'Theatre of the Mind' approach". I am familiar with the old radio program, which I used to listen to repeats of on a local radio station in the early 80's, on Sunday evenings.:confused:

3. I envy you! A second set of eyes is fantastic, especially when it comes to getting some of the "oddball" stuff that can really make a memorable gaming session. Love using props in the game. I really hope the missus is doing well.  

4.                        " Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends
                            We're so glad you could attend, come inside, come inside
                            There behind a glass stands a real blade of grass
                            Be careful as you pass, move along, move along...  
                            ...Come inside, the show's about to start
                            Guaranteed to blow your head apart..."



Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 05, 2016, 11:40:19 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;896096
I'm also taking notes to visit all cons at the last day, if possible.

Me too... I have only ever been to one con in my life, and the experience so turned me off of them that I never went back. However, I might have to re-evaluate my position and just go on the last day for all of the discounted goodies.:p

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 05, 2016, 09:08:42 PM
Last time I went to Dragon Con, in the dealers' room some gaming stuff about two years old was 2 for $15 on Thursday, 3 for $5 on Sunday.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 05, 2016, 09:10:06 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;896122

4.                        " Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends
                            We're so glad you could attend, come inside, come inside
                            There behind a glass stands a real blade of grass
                            Be careful as you pass, move along, move along...  
                            ...Come inside, the show's about to start
                            Guaranteed to blow your head apart..."



Shemek.

If I had a dollar for every time Chirine sang that during our years with Akbar and Jeff's Traveling Tekumel Road Show, we'd ALL be rich.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 05, 2016, 10:36:23 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896238
If I had a dollar for every time Chirine sang that during our years with Akbar and Jeff's Traveling Tekumel Road Show, we'd ALL be rich.


Really? That's scary. Must be a generational thing, or something. Like the man said: "great minds think alike, and fools seldom differ", I guess. :p

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 05, 2016, 10:40:09 PM
Huzzah! Looks like we are slowly getting our old emoticons back. I for one am a huge fan of the head banging on the wall emoji. Such an accurate portrayal of my working life... I hope that one comes back soon.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 06, 2016, 02:24:20 AM
From AsenRG:
I can only say, the picture looked glorious:D!

Thank you - the Missus found this in a gift shop and thought of me.


Phil certainly had props we can't hope to match:).
The part about the Sudanese is interesting. I might have to look into that, and it might spark an idea that the players will hate me for;).
I'll report any progress here, of course!

(Yes, I know, weird stuff inspires me. I ran a one-year campaign by making a note about a trade discount in the price of armour, and a group that would have interest in increasing said discount).


We can get close, but I do agree - he was in the right places at the right times. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 06, 2016, 02:29:36 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896093
:D


(Also, I remember doing the "It's Sunday, buy this for less than cost so I don't have to pack it up again PLEASE!!!" at wargames cons...)

Ain't it the truth. Although, we did get a lot of very useful stuff that way from some very nice people. The guys at Armory, RAFM, and Ral Partha always seemed to be happy to see us on Sunday mornings... :)

And, frankly, after a certain point when the merchandise has been sitting on the shelf for a long time, you've paid more to store and inventory the item(s) then they will ever bring back in a sale. One of the things that I admire about Fighting Bob of The Source is that he's got the sheer courage to pull stuff off the shelves after it's 'aged'. It does take a certain amount of nerve to do it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 06, 2016, 02:30:10 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;896096
I'm also taking notes to visit all cons at the last day, if possible.

Good plan!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 06, 2016, 02:38:54 AM
From Shemek hiTankolel:
1. The beauty of the interweb! See, it does have some uses other than being a repository of porn, and mindless memes.;) Before discovering this thread I wouldn't have known that a large part of Tekumel's early roots came from the world of 1930's and 1940's sci-fi. Personally, I love the art-deco retro futurism of that period. I'm also always on the look out for suitable images to use. BTW, did you ever see the "Human Space Empires" web page? There is also a really nice set of Beta form rules which can be downloaded. I have been using the weapon stats for energy weapons, and what not, in my Tekumel campaign for some time now. Very easy to integrate into an EPT/1e AD&D based game.  

I have a copy - fun game, and I have the miniatures for it... Ahoggya space marines, anyone? :)

2. Me too. Currently, I am using a Mayan/Aztec fusion to represent the minions of the Pariah God worshipping city state that the party is up against. For the good guys I am using a medieval Burmese/Nepalese fusion. As this chapter of my Tekumel Campaign is set in the period of the Three States of the Triangle I figure that I've pretty well got free rein. Even created some new gods, as I figured the normal ones either wouldn't be present, or be in forms quite different than in a traditional Tekumel game.

Sounds good to me - if it works, it works. Nothing like a practical approach, I say...

I'm not sure what you mean by a " 'Theatre of the Mind' approach". I am familiar with the old radio program, which I used to listen to repeats of on a local radio station in the early 80's, on Sunday evenings.:confused:

It's 'watching the radio'; the words create the pictures in your mind. Phil used to do this a lot, as we just didn't have the resources to do what we can do today. I can do this, and often do, but when I can I like to have stuff on the table or (in the case of props) in hand for people to marvel at. It seems to increase that 'sense of wonder', somehow.

3. I envy you! A second set of eyes is fantastic, especially when it comes to getting some of the "oddball" stuff that can really make a memorable gaming session. Love using props in the game. I really hope the missus is doing well.  

She's surviving, and pretty much stable. She's been with me for twenty-five years, so she's got a pretty good idea what I'm looking for; likewise, she knew Phil back in the day, and was the one who cataloged his books after he passed away and also helped sort out his stuff at the time. So, yeah, she's got the eye.

4.                        " Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends
                            We're so glad you could attend, come inside, come inside
                            There behind a glass stands a real blade of grass
                            Be careful as you pass, move along, move along...  
                            ...Come inside, the show's about to start
                            Guaranteed to blow your head apart..."


I tend to get that reaction a lot from modern gamers who have no idea what we used to get up to back in Ye Olden Dayes. The Gary Con EPT game last year was a good example of this; I just did what I would normally do for an RPG, and people seemed to be blown away by the play style.

Speed and Spectacle. That's me! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 06, 2016, 02:42:15 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;896125
Me too... I have only ever been to one con in my life, and the experience so turned me off of them that I never went back. However, I might have to re-evaluate my position and just go on the last day for all of the discounted goodies.:p

Shemek.

I can really understand this. I generally do not have a good time at conventions, of any sort, and I have to be pretty actively doing something in order to have a decent time. I don't like a lot of noise and pandemonium, and most convention organizers are forced to stuff as many tables into the space as possible in order to make the costs of doing the event. I've gotten choosy about how I spend my time and money, especially as I get older and more cranky... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 06, 2016, 02:43:07 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896237
Last time I went to Dragon Con, in the dealers' room some gaming stuff about two years old was 2 for $15 on Thursday, 3 for $5 on Sunday.

Ha! And how many years have we been seeing this, my General? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 06, 2016, 02:45:28 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896238
If I had a dollar for every time Chirine sang that during our years with Akbar and Jeff's Traveling Tekumel Road Show, we'd ALL be rich.

Luckliy for us, I could carry a tune back then. These days, it'd be the little clamshell CD player and the miniature sound system. It's all true, too. I still have nightmares where I'm trapped in some convention center or hotel pushing a cart full of boxes around the corridors for all eternity...:eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 06, 2016, 02:46:21 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;896250
Really? That's scary. Must be a generational thing, or something. Like the man said: "great minds think alike, and fools seldom differ", I guess. :p

Shemek

Should I hide the vinyl...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 06, 2016, 09:31:45 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;896283
From AsenRG:
I can only say, the picture looked glorious:D!

Thank you - the Missus found this in a gift shop and thought of me.

She's certainly thoughtful:). I hope she'd be well, and get better!


Quote
We can get close, but I do agree - he was in the right places at the right times. :)

Well, Uncle, maybe you can even reach his levels, but you've been gathering props like this your whole life - it's the rest of us who couldn't compare;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 06, 2016, 10:13:11 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;896290
I still have nightmares where I'm trapped in some convention center or hotel pushing a cart full of boxes around the corridors for all eternity...:eek:

NAR!  Here, shoots a little to the left.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: thomsonX on May 06, 2016, 03:12:38 PM
chirine ba kal:

I assume that when playing, a character succeeds at something that is their Original Skills or Professional Skills unless something specifically says a roll is required.
Is this correct? Someone once said that the "likelihood of a spell working" should be used for Skills as well.
This seems not fun to me but, is it the way you use the rules?

The EPT rules say spells, some Eyes, and other magical devices attacks
are "automatic hits" and the only defensive possible against them is a successful saving throw.

I always assumed that if there was a serious question of a Skill being successful then a Saving Throw could be used.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 06, 2016, 08:27:42 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;896291
Should I hide the vinyl...


Gadzooks! Vinyl! Love my LP collection, a lot of goodies in there. Hendrix, Jethro Tull, all the Who albums... I'm going to have to go and fire up the Victrola. :D Ya, you better hide it.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 07, 2016, 01:46:17 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;896353
She's certainly thoughtful:). I hope she'd be well, and get better!

Well, Uncle, maybe you can even reach his levels, but you've been gathering props like this your whole life - it's the rest of us who couldn't compare;).


She is, which is one of the many, many reasons we've been together for over twenty-five years. She's stable, right now, and we're trying to keep it that way. She had a nice little outing today, going out to play the ponies - it's the Kentucky Derby this weekend, one of the High Holy Days in my horsey wife's calendar - and so far she's done quite well; she placed bets on the pre-Derby races, and made back all of her monty and then some.

Well, collecting props and stuff for gaming comes - I think - from my time in theater and show production. Phil did this, of course, and that was what got me started. Anybody can do it, in my opinion, if it suits their play style. The game's the thing, to mangle a quote, and my 'education' in gaming, gamesmanship, and games presentation came from two master showmen named Dave and Phil. I'm always reminded of that lump of two pounds of grey Plasticine, Gertie... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 07, 2016, 01:48:28 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896359
NAR!  Here, shoots a little to the left.


Everything is in tubs and ready to launch, I have a fleet of sturdy carts, and a cargo van to load it all into. I've found that I can either do the games or the logistics, not both; just not enough stamina or energy, these days. Somebody else will have to organize things, these days...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 07, 2016, 02:07:37 AM
Quote from: thomsonX;896412
chirine ba kal:

I assume that when playing, a character succeeds at something that is their Original Skills or Professional Skills unless something specifically says a roll is required.
Is this correct? Someone once said that the "likelihood of a spell working" should be used for Skills as well.
This seems not fun to me but, is it the way you use the rules?

The EPT rules say spells, some Eyes, and other magical devices attacks
are "automatic hits" and the only defensive possible against them is a successful saving throw.

I always assumed that if there was a serious question of a Skill being successful then a Saving Throw could be used.


Thank you for the great question, and welcome to our little corner of the forum! :)

I'm assuming that you're looking at EPT; Phil's usual practice was to assume that if you had the particular skill you more or less knew what you were doing, and usually did not have us roll for success on something unless he thought it was a particularly hard 'test'. At that point, he's ask us to roll percentile dice, and use our stats for the roll we had to make. In my case, if it was a skill like 'lock-picking', I'd have to roll under my DEX of 89 to succeed. I don't recall him ever using the same mechanic as the spell-casting roll for skills; he held that casting spells or fighting in a melee was inherently more difficult then something like 'Astonomer-Navigator' - "Chirine, roll." "I'm a 98 Intelligence, and I rolled a thirty-five." "Great! You're near the Tsolei Islands!" "Crap." And so on.

I am sort of genuinely surprised to hear about the idea of using the spell roll for skills; Phil just didn't do it that way, in both EPT and S&G. Which also leads into the 'automatic hits'; again, this is how Phil envisioned his world worked - but he also felt that it made for better adventures is the targets could have the chance to make a saving throw. It's like in melee or other combat, where if you killed something it still got a 'dying blow' in against you - which tended to make us very, very careful about combat. I think the only time he didn't allow this was when we had total surprise on something, and were hitting it from behind in a sneak attack.

I think your assumption is pretty accurate, and certainly well within what Phil used to do. I play the same way, and it seems to keep the action moving along.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 07, 2016, 02:09:45 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;896465
Gadzooks! Vinyl! Love my LP collection, a lot of goodies in there. Hendrix, Jethro Tull, all the Who albums... I'm going to have to go and fire up the Victrola. :D Ya, you better hide it.

Shemek.

ELO is about as new as I get; lots of Gregorian and Byzantine chant, early music, and a very treasured recording of Mozart's glass harmonica compositions.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 07, 2016, 06:23:33 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;896500
She is, which is one of the many, many reasons we've been together for over twenty-five years. She's stable, right now, and we're trying to keep it that way. She had a nice little outing today, going out to play the ponies - it's the Kentucky Derby this weekend, one of the High Holy Days in my horsey wife's calendar - and so far she's done quite well; she placed bets on the pre-Derby races, and made back all of her monty and then some.
Expert knowledge might help betting. Who knew?

Quote
Well, collecting props and stuff for gaming comes - I think - from my time in theater and show production. Phil did this, of course, and that was what got me started. Anybody can do it, in my opinion, if it suits their play style. The game's the thing, to mangle a quote, and my 'education' in gaming, gamesmanship, and games presentation came from two master showmen named Dave and Phil.
Again, anyone that can store the props. I barely have room for my training implements;).
But I get it that most people in the USA would have the space. And this is good advice for them:).

Quote
I'm always reminded of that lump of two pounds of grey Plasticine, Gertie... :)
...a doggie, I guess?
Quote from: chirine ba kal;896503
Thank you for the great question, and welcome to our little corner of the forum! :)

I'm assuming that you're looking at EPT; Phil's usual practice was to assume that if you had the particular skill you more or less knew what you were doing, and usually did not have us roll for success on something unless he thought it was a particularly hard 'test'. At that point, he's ask us to roll percentile dice, and use our stats for the roll we had to make. In my case, if it was a skill like 'lock-picking', I'd have to roll under my DEX of 89 to succeed. I don't recall him ever using the same mechanic as the spell-casting roll for skills; he held that casting spells or fighting in a melee was inherently more difficult then something like 'Astonomer-Navigator' - "Chirine, roll." "I'm a 98 Intelligence, and I rolled a thirty-five." "Great! You're near the Tsolei Islands!" "Crap." And so on.
That's a lot how Runequest tends to work:D!

BTW, if you didn't have the skill, how did Phil proceed?

Also, I assume you can deflect dying blows? Or are they autosuccesful?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 07, 2016, 12:56:05 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;896501
Everything is in tubs and ready to launch, I have a fleet of sturdy carts, and a cargo van to load it all into. I've found that I can either do the games or the logistics, not both; just not enough stamina or energy, these days. Somebody else will have to organize things, these days...

Yeah, I understand that.  The logistics are incredible.  I remember some of the games at conventions where there'd be three of four of us hauling equipment until we were all pooped, and we were much younger then.  It's just not something one person can do at our age, sadly.

And it remains a problem.  I got into a TRACTICS game Thursday morning at GaryCon and it was lovely, but by the time the ref got ALL the stuff there from his car and got the game ready to go, he'd burned his hour of setup time and two hours of game time, so we only got to play two turns.  :(  Pity, really; it was a truly lovely board, and looked like a great game.  Mike Reese, TRACTICS author, was on the other team.  After the end I peeked at the board from HIS point of view.  Oh, had he prepared a nasty surprise for us...


Actually, my "shoots a little to the left" comment was a response to "You have been doomed to spend eternity pushing an overloaded cart full of unsold gaming stuff endlessly through the access tunnels underneath Cobo Hall."  To which my thought was "I'd shoot myself."  "But you're already dead," replies Lord Missum.  "Drat," says I.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 07, 2016, 12:57:19 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;896289
Ha! And how many years have we been seeing this, my General? :)

Heh.  "A long time ago, in a convention venue far, far away..."

Really, folks, if you've never done it, you have no idea how gut-wrenchingly weary one gets by the end of the last wargame convention of the summer.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 07, 2016, 08:19:03 PM
From AsenRG:
Expert knowledge might help betting. Who knew?

She's written a book on the subject, and can recite the heritage of any race horse back to the turn of the last century. She factors in weather, track surface and conditions, the jockeys, and everything else. The Allies went into Normandy with less information then she has at her fingertips, and when she gets out to the track it's hysterically funny to watch all the grizzled old experts shut up and try to look over her shoulder. The Derby went well for her today, and she's showing a very clear profit this evening.

Again, anyone that can store the props. I barely have room for my training implements;).
But I get it that most people in the USA would have the space. And this is good advice for them:).


Oh I agree! Paper card models, stuff that collapses down for storage, cloth sheeting for terrain, anything that will save space. I run into the same issues, even with my spaces; I try to use as many things in a multi-purpose way, for the same reasons. Storage is always an issue, even for me... :)

...a doggie, I guess?
Nope; Gertie, the Great Golden Dragon, and terror of Blackmoor for decades. That lump of clay terrified us, let me tell you!

BTW, if you didn't have the skill, how did Phil proceed?
Also, I assume you can deflect dying blows? Or are they autosuccesful?


He'd have you roll percentile dice, with the roll being under whatever stat seemed the most applicable. And yes, and no; dying blows were rolled for just like regular ones; they just had more panache.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 07, 2016, 08:22:56 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896570
Yeah, I understand that.  The logistics are incredible.  I remember some of the games at conventions where there'd be three of four of us hauling equipment until we were all pooped, and we were much younger then.  It's just not something one person can do at our age, sadly.

And it remains a problem.  I got into a TRACTICS game Thursday morning at GaryCon and it was lovely, but by the time the ref got ALL the stuff there from his car and got the game ready to go, he'd burned his hour of setup time and two hours of game time, so we only got to play two turns.  :(  Pity, really; it was a truly lovely board, and looked like a great game.  Mike Reese, TRACTICS author, was on the other team.  After the end I peeked at the board from HIS point of view.  Oh, had he prepared a nasty surprise for us...

Actually, my "shoots a little to the left" comment was a response to "You have been doomed to spend eternity pushing an overloaded cart full of unsold gaming stuff endlessly through the access tunnels underneath Cobo Hall."  To which my thought was "I'd shoot myself."  "But you're already dead," replies Lord Missum.  "Drat," says I.

There's the argument for six a.m. setup times. I can see the three hours of setup, but not the taking of two hours of game time. That's just 'not on' for a GM at a convention. Which is why I specify in my 'show kit instructions for event organizers' that I need to be stationed in one place, with one table set, for all my events. I can do four hour long games with a one hour turn, but not if I have to do logistics moves around the venue.

Oh, right, gotcha. Yeah, that did get old, didn't it?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 07, 2016, 08:24:13 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896571
Heh.  "A long time ago, in a convention venue far, far away..."

Really, folks, if you've never done it, you have no idea how gut-wrenchingly weary one gets by the end of the last wargame convention of the summer.

Agreed. It's a job, and not very fun one at that. The worst part, for me, was the scarcity of provisions; we'd have been better off sending out foragers to the local farms.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 07, 2016, 11:24:20 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;896644
Agreed. It's a job, and not very fun one at that. The worst part, for me, was the scarcity of provisions; we'd have been better off sending out foragers to the local farms.

Crom, yes.  That, I must say, Luke and GaryCon have taken care of to a treat; there are volunteers with carts of water and snacks serving the GMs, and the venue has a sandwich menu for the con available til 10 PM.  A hotel chicken cutlet sandwich may not be five star dining, but the fact they will bring the damn thing to your game table and let you put it on your room is a lifesaver.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 08, 2016, 12:03:42 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896658
Crom, yes.  That, I must say, Luke and GaryCon have taken care of to a treat; there are volunteers with carts of water and snacks serving the GMs, and the venue has a sandwich menu for the con available til 10 PM.  A hotel chicken cutlet sandwich may not be five star dining, but the fact they will bring the damn thing to your game table and let you put it on your room is a lifesaver.

Oh, agreed! The water cart didn't make it around to me at last year's Gary Con, but that was because they were short on volunteers. The hotel was great - I ate all of my meals at the game table, and it was a real lifesaver - as were the comp'ed sodas, which I thought was a nice touch.

This is, again, why Gary Con is a cut above a lot of conventions - of all types. I keep getting asked if I will come to so-and-so's convention, and I keep pointing out that it's going to have to be of the same 'quality of life' as Gary Con; I simply can't do anything less, given my shortages in stamina and energy levels. Now, admittedly it's also wanting me to run games - my kind of spectacle is apparently seen as a marketing advantage for conventions - but it does come with a cost in 'installed technology' and logistics. When I bring all this up, the conversation always stops dead as most event organizers are simply not aware of the magnitude of the effort needed to run a trade show booth or demo games like we used to do at AGI, or even just putting on The Big Game for the attendees.

I don't really have a good answer to any of this, either. I've done all I can on my end, by building 'pre-packed' games that require a minimal footprint and logistics, and by making everything I own as multi-purpose and as durable as possible - but there almost seems to be a sort of culture shock when people contemplate what goes into the show production. Had the same issues in doing masquerades at F/SF cons, which is why Costumers' Guild West did "The Masquerade Manual".

On the other had, made sixteen square feet of Underworld / 'dungeon' tiles done this evening in a couple of hours. Used up all the off-cuts from the modular terrain tiles and some paper from the crafts store - total cost, $12.00. It's been a very fun day! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 08, 2016, 12:42:07 AM
Yeah, it's just easier to work in your own home.  A home model railroad is a lot less logistical nightmare than trying to take a portable around to malls too.

For that matter, I remember trip after trip from the Coffman garage to the third floor with boxes of tanks, trees, hills...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 08, 2016, 02:37:34 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896668
Yeah, it's just easier to work in your own home.  A home model railroad is a lot less logistical nightmare than trying to take a portable around to malls too.

For that matter, I remember trip after trip from the Coffman garage to the third floor with boxes of tanks, trees, hills...

Agreed about the modular layout - remember the 'portable' down the club? :eek: I had looked at redoing my layout as a modular one, but there was no demand - there are no more mall shows like the ones we used to do. No show, no portable.

The garage is gone, by the way; it got taken over by the bookstore. Our old route is gone, too, and I (for one) am not heartbroken. This, our readers, was back before the days of affordable carts to move things with, and so any large game had to have a caravan of bearers to meet you at your over-stuff car and carry everything up. If you were really lucky, the elevator would be a) working, and b) unlocked. This, I suspect, is why we settled in for those long afternoons of gaming - once we were in, we really didn't feel like hauling it all out again! Opening the windows and standing out on the terrace with a net was not an option, although we did think of it on a number of occasions...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on May 08, 2016, 05:42:09 AM
Having done games at Cold Wars, Historicon and Fall in on the East Coast for quite a few years in the early 2000's I can sympathise with the 'hauling scenery' thing. I had everything in plastic tubs and used a flatbed hand cart to drag all the stuff about too. The water stands always seemed to run out without replenishment at least once a day every day for four days. The food at The Lancaster Host was never of the best quality but decent woul have been nice. I do remember people on occasion getting food poisoning from the often overpriced concessions. I do however have fond memories of Lapp's Amish Restaurant and the breakfasts there. Alas long gone now with another hotel scheduled to be built on the site.

Now at least I don't do all the wargaming cons back in the UK or I'd be spending  many weekends dealing with overcrowded roads and indifferent accommodation. At least for Games Expo I get to stay in the Hilton Metropole at the National Exhibition Centre and can take the game material down to the room where I'm running my games very easily. The trade hall this year is in one of the centres main halls a large area by usual UK con standards.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 08, 2016, 11:40:20 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;896642
From AsenRG:
Expert knowledge might help betting. Who knew?

She's written a book on the subject, and can recite the heritage of any race horse back to the turn of the last century. She factors in weather, track surface and conditions, the jockeys, and everything else. The Allies went into Normandy with less information then she has at her fingertips, and when she gets out to the track it's hysterically funny to watch all the grizzled old experts shut up and try to look over her shoulder. The Derby went well for her today, and she's showing a very clear profit this evening.
My respect for your wife only grows, Uncle:). And she'd make a terrifying spymistress!

For some reason, this reminds me of going to a kick-boxing match with a friend who has been good enough to be the sparring partner of the Republican champion at the time. He would look at the fighters approaching the ring and predict which one would win. I had learned to do the same, for a while, but I was still lucky there was no betting involved.


Quote
...a doggie, I guess?
Nope; Gertie, the Great Golden Dragon, and terror of Blackmoor for decades. That lump of clay terrified us, let me tell you!
Ah, Gertie, the figure of the Great Golden Dragon?
Uh, weren't you on her side?

Quote
BTW, if you didn't have the skill, how did Phil proceed?
Also, I assume you can deflect dying blows? Or are they autosuccesful?


He'd have you roll percentile dice, with the roll being under whatever stat seemed the most applicable.
Excellent!

And fun fact of RPG trivia: that structure is present in Unknown Armies 2, down to the percentile dice.
(Checks are minor, significant and major, depending on how hard the task is. Minor ones succeed if you have the skill at a minumum level; significant let you roll under the stat. Major ones, like combat or magic use, require you to roll under the skill, which can at best meet the stat level).

Quote
And yes, and no; dying blows were rolled for just like regular ones; they just had more panache.
Makes sense. And makes fighting so much fun...:D

(Which reminds me of the same game - Unknown Armies actually begins its combat chapter by "Six Ways To Avoid A Fight". And then proceeds to give you a very lethal combat chapter. I think Phil, and your group in general, would have approved).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;896644
Agreed. It's a job, and not very fun one at that. The worst part, for me, was the scarcity of provisions; we'd have been better off sending out foragers to the local farms.
...which brings us to the next question. When you do foraging on a Tsolyani campaign, what happens?
A) Inside Tsolyanu, is it even necessary? Or would you get food in exchange for "Clan favour"?
B) Outside The Empire, how would you go about procuring supplies for the men and Chlen? How about the Tsolei Isles? Pechano?

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;896695
Having done games at Cold Wars, Historicon and Fall in on the East Coast for quite a few years in the early 2000's I can sympathise with the 'hauling scenery' thing. I had everything in plastic tubs and used a flatbed hand cart to drag all the stuff about too. The water stands always seemed to run out without replenishment at least once a day every day for four days. The food at The Lancaster Host was never of the best quality but decent woul have been nice. I do remember people on occasion getting food poisoning from the often overpriced concessions. I do however have fond memories of Lapp's Amish Restaurant and the breakfasts there. Alas long gone now with another hotel scheduled to be built on the site.

Now at least I don't do all the wargaming cons back in the UK or I'd be spending  many weekends dealing with overcrowded roads and indifferent accommodation. At least for Games Expo I get to stay in the Hilton Metropole at the National Exhibition Centre and can take the game material down to the room where I'm running my games very easily. The trade hall this year is in one of the centres main halls a large area by usual UK con standards.
Heh, I've never been to an Amish restaurant. Now I'm trying to picture what's different to a regular one;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on May 08, 2016, 01:37:25 PM
Amish restaurants. The Amish are Pennsylvania Dutch (Deutsch) of a very religious persuasion. Many wear 19th century style clothing with no modern fastenings (no zips for example) and often can be seen driving a horse and buggy on the roads of Pennsylvania. They do home style cooking and are well regarded for the quality of the food they serve.

http://www.discoverlancaster.com/dining/pennsylvania-dutch-dining.asp
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 08, 2016, 01:43:14 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;896680
Agreed about the modular layout - remember the 'portable' down the club? :eek: I had looked at redoing my layout as a modular one, but there was no demand - there are no more mall shows like the ones we used to do. No show, no portable.

The garage is gone, by the way; it got taken over by the bookstore. Our old route is gone, too, and I (for one) am not heartbroken. This, our readers, was back before the days of affordable carts to move things with, and so any large game had to have a caravan of bearers to meet you at your over-stuff car and carry everything up. If you were really lucky, the elevator would be a) working, and b) unlocked. This, I suspect, is why we settled in for those long afternoons of gaming - once we were in, we really didn't feel like hauling it all out again! Opening the windows and standing out on the terrace with a net was not an option, although we did think of it on a number of occasions...

Heck, I don't even think plastic tubs had been invented yet, so was battered cardboard boxes and a train of bearers.  HUGGA bugga HUGGA bugga....
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 08, 2016, 07:10:09 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;896695
Having done games at Cold Wars, Historicon and Fall in on the East Coast for quite a few years in the early 2000's I can sympathise with the 'hauling scenery' thing. I had everything in plastic tubs and used a flatbed hand cart to drag all the stuff about too. The water stands always seemed to run out without replenishment at least once a day every day for four days. The food at The Lancaster Host was never of the best quality but decent woul have been nice. I do remember people on occasion getting food poisoning from the often overpriced concessions. I do however have fond memories of Lapp's Amish Restaurant and the breakfasts there. Alas long gone now with another hotel scheduled to be built on the site.

Now at least I don't do all the wargaming cons back in the UK or I'd be spending  many weekends dealing with overcrowded roads and indifferent accommodation. At least for Games Expo I get to stay in the Hilton Metropole at the National Exhibition Centre and can take the game material down to the room where I'm running my games very easily. The trade hall this year is in one of the centres main halls a large area by usual UK con standards.

Agreed!!! I used to hear all of the stories from the HMGS East shows, and it really put me off going.

And having driven in the UK - my model railway club is in Wakefield, and we have friends in Wiltshire - I know exactly what you mean. Getting from Minety to Toddington to visit the Glos and Warwicks stam railway was, without a doubt, the most terrifying thing I have ever done in my life. The uphill blind curve leading to the car park at Belas Knap was my undoing; I still get the shakes at the thought of finding the car park was full of people as I rounded the turn. On the other hand, the Missus asking me on the return trip - we went by a different route - why the road was suddenly straight as an arrow for miles was worth the terror;  I told her to look at the note on the map for the A-419 (I think), and the look on her face when she realized we were going home via the 'Roman Road' was priceless... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 08, 2016, 07:29:02 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;896721
My respect for your wife only grows, Uncle:). And she'd make a terrifying spymistress!

Ah, Gertie, the figure of the Great Golden Dragon?
Uh, weren't you on her side?

...which brings us to the next question. When you do foraging on a Tsolyani campaign, what happens?
A) Inside Tsolyanu, is it even necessary? Or would you get food in exchange for "Clan favour"?
B) Outside The Empire, how would you go about procuring supplies for the men and Chlen? How about the Tsolei Isles? Pechano?

She makes Walsingham look like an amateur, she does. She does the research, and thinks before she does.

Yep. Very, very lucky dice roll by Yours Truly, otherwise we'd all have been charcoal.

Ah, the subject of foraging. I've gotten to be an expert, on this...

a) Inside the central empire, it's usually pretty easy; you pay for what you get, either in writs or favors - however, once the local surpluses are eaten out, then it's hard cash; and after that, you're out of luck. Normally, a garrison relies on the local suppliers, just like anybody else, but troops in transit can eat out a locale in no time flat. So, you keep moving, and head to the next town wher you can get supplies. One has to keep the troops very firmly in line, as their natural tendancy to 'help themselves' will land the legion - and the supply officer! - in a lot of very hot water with the locals. The farmer will complain to the fief-holder, the fief-holder to the governor, the governor to Bey Su, Bey Su to Avanthar, and Avanthar to you.

b) 'Civlized' places like Pechano are like the Imperium, but you pay for what you get - usually at inflated prices, too. Isolated spots like the Tsolei Isles are a big problem, as they don't have enough of a local infrastructure to deal with large bodies of hungry troops, so you pay through the nose and starve after a couple of weeks. The absolute worst is Milumaniya, where there is nothing locally, and  the locals are quite hostile. So, you live off your carts, carry your own fodder and water, and become very road-bound and very slow-moving. Which, in turn, means that you spend a lot of time and energy keeping the locals away from your carts, where the sack of grain represent - to them - vast wealth. And, that, of course, is why Phil did it that way - all this leads to adventures and fights of various sizes - 'locate the lost supply column', anyone? - which is the whole purpose for having the game / campaign in the first place.

Me, being a good staff officer, always made sure that we had a month's worth of rations on the carts, and hopefully a week's wort of fodder. The problem is that after a while, you wind up having the chlen eating all the cargo capacity of the carts in the supply train, so you want to have as much good grazing available as possible. Which, of course, gets us back to the adventures - guarding the baggage and supply train was always the absolute fastest way to get into trouble there ever was in Phil's campaign. Second fastest way was going out with a foraging party to see where the nearest well was.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 08, 2016, 07:31:00 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896741
Heck, I don't even think plastic tubs had been invented yet, so was battered cardboard boxes and a train of bearers.  HUGGA bugga HUGGA bugga....

No, they hadn't, Bwana / Sahib, which is why we always looked like the explorers in "Source of the Nile" before we even played the game. And a diabolical little game it was, too... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 08, 2016, 07:55:37 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;896794
Which, of course, gets us back to the adventures - guarding the baggage and supply train was always the absolute fastest way to get into trouble there ever was in Phil's campaign. Second fastest way was going out with a foraging party to see where the nearest well was.

I'm taking notes again;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 08, 2016, 08:54:34 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;896794
Which, of course, gets us back to the adventures - guarding the baggage and supply train was always the absolute fastest way to get into trouble there ever was in Phil's campaign. Second fastest way was going out with a foraging party to see where the nearest well was.


Do tell.... Please!  Any yarns that you can share with us? :)

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 08, 2016, 09:12:51 PM
Ah, keeping the Legion fed.  What a joy.  On the Sakbe roads have your marching orders ready and sign for everything in the Legion's name.  And that's a good reason to start the day's march early, first legion to the campsite gets the dry places to sleep and the best grub.

Milumanaya?  Gods.  A nightmare.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 08, 2016, 11:04:59 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;896797
I'm taking notes again;).

Excellent! Adventures can happen right outside the front door, and start with the most simple things. Phil's wonderful gift to us is a world fully stocked with people, places, and things that almost demand that you go and have a look. He came out of a time when 'Action! Adventure! Romance!' was a commonplace, and adventurers set out on epic and not-so-epic journeys in their worlds. I've often heard the word 'epic' used in describing RPG campaigns, and these seem to be sprawling, universe-spanning, 'wide-screen' campaigns; I don't mind that concept at all - if it fits your play style, then more power to you - but I've had a whole lot of fun for multiple game sessions by simply going out into the marketplace in search of a name-day gift. From small seeds, great deeds can grow, and Phil did that in bucket-loads. I simply emulate his style, with a dash of Arneson and Gygax thrown in for seasoning.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 08, 2016, 11:15:26 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;896802
Do tell.... Please!  Any yarns that you can share with us? :)

Shemek

 (Yes, and I'm writing them up.)

Well, in general, having player-characters in the trains was always good for laughs and the Glorious General pulling his hair out. They'd scamper off to investigate anything along the way, and any of the scout parties we'd send out would get tangled up in the mayhem. We'd send a squad-equivalent out to look for a well - or a good place to dig a latrine - and the PCs would find some trouble to get into. Local tribes, for whom the PCs represented unheard of wealth as well as a good meal - cannibalism is common, in Milumaniya; Mysterious ruins, just chock full of nameless horrors from beyond time and space or simply a collapsing floor; Other PCs, dropping in for an unannounced visit; you name it. Locals trying to raid the baggage train, opposing forces trying to do the same, our 'loyal allies' doing it, other legions trying to get away with 'midnight requisitions'.

May I suggest George Macdonald Frasier's "Private McAuslan" series, or his autobiographical "Quartered All Safe Out Here" for sources of adventures? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 08, 2016, 11:17:59 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896805
Ah, keeping the Legion fed.  What a joy.  On the Sakbe roads have your marching orders ready and sign for everything in the Legion's name.  And that's a good reason to start the day's march early, first legion to the campsite gets the dry places to sleep and the best grub.

Milumanaya?  Gods.  A nightmare.

Yep. Remember the night Phil attacked, and we pulled the Arsuf formation on him? You'd have thought that he'd remember what happened to Saladin, but noooo...

We never lost a chlen or a cart, or ever went hungry or thirsty. I am still pretty dang proud of that, my General.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 08, 2016, 11:23:54 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;896816
We never lost a chlen or a cart, or ever went hungry or thirsty. I am still pretty dang proud of that, my General.

As well you should be.  In that aspect, Phil had met his match.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: rawma on May 08, 2016, 11:24:11 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;896814
I've often heard the word 'epic' used in describing RPG campaigns, and these seem to be sprawling, universe-spanning, 'wide-screen' campaigns; I don't mind that concept at all - if it fits your play style, then more poser to you


Sometimes, from typo, truth. ;) The epic needs some not-so-epic concerns and events in the game world, or it's likely to be just an empty special effects blockbuster.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 08, 2016, 11:36:40 PM
Quote from: rawma;896818
Sometimes, from typo, truth. ;) The epic needs some not-so-epic concerns and events in the game world, or it's likely to be just an empty special effects blockbuster.

Whoops! Thanks for pointing this out!

I guess I'm not sure what 'epic' is supposed to be like; Phil's campaign went into a very 'epic' style - as I think the word is being used - in the 1990s where a lot of the world-setting got pushed into the background in favor of the personal advancement of the power-players of the day. Hearing the accounts of the game sessions of that time was a little odd, as the play reminded me of a lot of the gaming that had gone on in the very early days of D&D, with 300th level mages and such. It wasn't what I had liked about his campaign, the nitty-gritty of the world-setting and the ongoing background of his meta-game, and I have stayed away from that style of game-play ever since.

Early Blackmoor, in comparison, wasn't very 'epic' either. The campaign, at least into the late 1980s, was all about the adventures and mis-adventures of a bunch of people trying to keep the lid on the various perils that confronted the little seacoast town. I read the later d20 Blackmoor book, and put it back on the FLGS shelf; too much battles-with-the-gods and that kind of thing, and really far from what I'd played with Dave. Not saying right or wrong, or good or bad; just not the play style and settings that I had been playing in.

You do make a good point, I think... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 08, 2016, 11:38:59 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896805
Ah, keeping the Legion fed.  What a joy.  On the Sakbe roads have your marching orders ready and sign for everything in the Legion's name.  And that's a good reason to start the day's march early, first legion to the campsite gets the dry places to sleep and the best grub.

Milumanaya?  Gods.  A nightmare.


Well, as Napoleon or Frederick the Great said (depending on whom you believe): an army marches on its stomach.
I can tell you from personal experience when I was in the army, if you want to quickly piss off a bunch of Troopies either don't feed them, or bring them cold chow after promising them a hot meal, or withhold their rum rations when they are out in the field on extended ex in the middle of winter ( the good old days). Funny how things suddenly start slowing down, and all the radios suddenly don't work...

"Two this is One. Over"
"Say again. Over".  
"Two this One. Over!"
"Say Again. Over" followed by a squelch....:D

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 08, 2016, 11:49:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;896816
Yep. Remember the night Phil attacked, and we pulled the Arsuf formation on him? You'd have thought that he'd remember what happened to Saladin, but noooo...

We never lost a chlen or a cart, or ever went hungry or thirsty. I am still pretty dang proud of that, my General.


Ahh, Richard coeur de lion.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 09, 2016, 12:16:05 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;896820
Well, as Napoleon or Frederick the Great said (depending on whom you believe): an army marches on its stomach.
I can tell you from personal experience when I was in the army, if you want to quickly piss off a bunch of Troopies either don't feed them, or bring them cold chow after promising them a hot meal, or withhold their rum rations when they are out in the field on extended ex in the middle of winter ( the good old days). Funny how things suddenly start slowing down, and all the radios suddenly don't work...

"Two this is One. Over"
"Say again. Over".  
"Two this One. Over!"
"Say Again. Over" followed by a squelch....:D

Shemek.


Oh, how very, very true!!! :) I had the good (?) fortune to be in when C-rations were still being issued; a lot of ours were Korean War issue, according to the dates on the boxes. It did make one think, it did. I never knew that cold C-rats were the cause of radio batteries going dead all of a sudden, but there you are. I am very, very sure that at some point the optio told the centurion that the pila were out of alignment, but that this would be fixed the next time the cookhouse was open...

Some things never, ever change. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 09, 2016, 12:17:56 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;896821
Ahh, Richard coeur de lion.

Shemek

Given Phil's continually demonstrated expertise in Crusading period warfare, I'd have never thought he'd fall for something as obvious as this. We did get him pretty well, though... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 09, 2016, 01:46:01 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;896814
Excellent! Adventures can happen right outside the front door, and start with the most simple things. Phil's wonderful gift to us is a world fully stocked with people, places, and things that almost demand that you go and have a look. He came out of a time when 'Action! Adventure! Romance!' was a commonplace, and adventurers set out on epic and not-so-epic journeys in their worlds. I've often heard the word 'epic' used in describing RPG campaigns, and these seem to be sprawling, universe-spanning, 'wide-screen' campaigns; I don't mind that concept at all - if it fits your play style, then more power to you - but I've had a whole lot of fun for multiple game sessions by simply going out into the marketplace in search of a name-day gift. From small seeds, great deeds can grow, and Phil did that in bucket-loads. I simply emulate his style, with a dash of Arneson and Gygax thrown in for seasoning.

Heh, Uncle, I was thinking of doing a blog post on this just last night...so here's the basics of it:).

There are two meanings of "epic" among fantasy fans of today.
The word "epic" used by fans of classical fantasy means said fans expect the protagonist will fall in love, the love interest will get kidnapped by a prince, and the protagonist is going to gather an army and defeat the prince's army (or alternately, lead a rebellion, or alternately, spearhead a palace plot and perform an assassination), and then get the love interest back. (Other differences include that she'll probably be grateful).

The word "epic" used by fans of today's...let's call it fantasy, means said fans expect the protagonist will fall in love, the love interest will get kidnapped by a foreign prince, and the protagonist is going to defeat the prince's army by killing them personally, then kill the prince in personal combat, and then get the love interest back. (Other differences include that he or she'll probably meet the protagonist with "what the hell took you so long", and a snide remark on his swordplay).

Please note: it's not a "kids these days" issue. I like the former style and laugh at the latter. People older than me do the opposite.
Both kinds of fans think "the other protagonist" is not epic.
"Who is he? He couldn't save her without his army", they might say, and have said.
"Who is your guy? He's a nobody that has no connections to the setting", I have replied on occasion;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;896819
Whoops! Thanks for pointing this out!

I guess I'm not sure what 'epic' is supposed to be like; Phil's campaign went into a very 'epic' style - as I think the word is being used - in the 1990s where a lot of the world-setting got pushed into the background in favor of the personal advancement of the power-players of the day. Hearing the accounts of the game sessions of that time was a little odd, as the play reminded me of a lot of the gaming that had gone on in the very early days of D&D, with 300th level mages and such. It wasn't what I had liked about his campaign, the nitty-gritty of the world-setting and the ongoing background of his meta-game, and I have stayed away from that style of game-play ever since.

Early Blackmoor, in comparison, wasn't very 'epic' either. The campaign, at least into the late 1980s, was all about the adventures and mis-adventures of a bunch of people trying to keep the lid on the various perils that confronted the little seacoast town. I read the later d20 Blackmoor book, and put it back on the FLGS shelf; too much battles-with-the-gods and that kind of thing, and really far from what I'd played with Dave. Not saying right or wrong, or good or bad; just not the play style and settings that I had been playing in.

You do make a good point, I think... :)

That surprises me about Phil. I guess we all want to try different stuff:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 09, 2016, 02:07:35 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;896830
Heh, Uncle, I was thinking of doing a blog post on this just last night...so here's the basics of it:).

There are two meanings of "epic" among fantasy fans of today.
The word "epic" used by fans of classical fantasy means said fans expect the protagonist will fall in love, the love interest will get kidnapped by a prince, and the protagonist is going to gather an army and defeat the prince's army (or alternately, lead a rebellion, or alternately, spearhead a palace plot and perform an assassination), and then get the love interest back. (Other differences include that she'll probably be grateful).

The word "epic" used by fans of today's...let's call it fantasy, means said fans expect the protagonist will fall in love, the love interest will get kidnapped by a foreign prince, and the protagonist is going to defeat the prince's army by killing them personally, then kill the prince in personal combat, and then get the love interest back. (Other differences include that he or she'll probably meet the protagonist with "what the hell took you so long", and a snide remark on his swordplay).

Please note: it's not a "kids these days" issue. I like the former style and laugh at the latter. People older than me do the opposite.
Both kinds of fans think "the other protagonist" is not epic.
"Who is he? He couldn't save her without his army", they might say, and have said.
"Who is your guy? He's a nobody that has no connections to the setting", I have replied on occasion;).


That surprises me about Phil. I guess we all want to try different stuff:D!

Oh. Okay. I guess I think of it terms of a more 'low-level' game ' 'high-level game' difference. In the original Thursday Night Group campaign, we were relatively low-level people doing the business of empire, with a lot of engagement / 'immersion' in the setting. In the latter decades of the campaign, it was all about super-heroes saving the universe, with very little engagement with the actual world-setting.

Fro his letters, he wasn't all that keen on it. He mostly wanted to keep the players from meddling with the timelines and story arcs he was writing about in his novels. By and large, he did succeed in that, and I think he was helped in this by the very different play style of that period.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on May 09, 2016, 04:27:35 AM
Driving in the UK is something I warn US friends about. Driving down a country lane only one car wide and being faced by a flock of sheep and seeing the look on their face is in the words of the advert 'priceless'. I live at the edge of the New Forest in Hampshire and coming across a horse/pony, cow or a pig roaming freely about on the roads is always possible as the roads are not fenced in the National Park.

Roundabouts are the other road feature that foxes many a US tourist along with most, if not all, rentals cars having a stick shift.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 09, 2016, 02:22:07 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;896838
Driving in the UK is something I warn US friends about. Driving down a country lane only one car wide and being faced by a flock of sheep and seeing the look on their face is in the words of the advert 'priceless'. I live at the edge of the New Forest in Hampshire and coming across a horse/pony, cow or a pig roaming freely about on the roads is always possible as the roads are not fenced in the National Park.

Roundabouts are the other road feature that foxes many a US tourist along with most, if not all, rentals cars having a stick shift.

It's all true, too! :)

I really did enjoy driving on the country roads; it gave me a real feel for the landscape, especially as I really like the Pike and Shot period. Walking through Cirencester's narrow streets reminded me of when Prince Rupert of the Rhine came to town; same sort of thing, standing in the dar park at Harlech and looking up at the mass of the castle looming over me. Or walking up that long, long slope uphill to the top of the ridge at Gettysburg on a hot summer day. It did get me thinking... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 09, 2016, 02:55:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;896815
(Yes, and I'm writing them up.)

Well, in general, having player-characters in the trains was always good for laughs and the Glorious General pulling his hair out. They'd scamper off to investigate anything along the way, and any of the scout parties we'd send out would get tangled up in the mayhem. We'd send a squad-equivalent out to look for a well - or a good place to dig a latrine - and the PCs would find some trouble to get into. Local tribes, for whom the PCs represented unheard of wealth as well as a good meal - cannibalism is common, in Milumaniya; Mysterious ruins, just chock full of nameless horrors from beyond time and space or simply a collapsing floor; Other PCs, dropping in for an unannounced visit; you name it. Locals trying to raid the baggage train, opposing forces trying to do the same, our 'loyal allies' doing it, other legions trying to get away with 'midnight requisitions'.

May I suggest George Macdonald Frasier's "Private McAuslan" series, or his autobiographical "Quartered All Safe Out Here" for sources of adventures? :)


I wasn't able to find those particular stories...However, I did pick up a few volumes of Frasier's "Flashman" books at my local second hand book shop...!!! Uncle thank you for the tip!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 09, 2016, 04:59:29 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;896833
Oh. Okay. I guess I think of it terms of a more 'low-level' game ' 'high-level game' difference. In the original Thursday Night Group campaign, we were relatively low-level people doing the business of empire, with a lot of engagement / 'immersion' in the setting. In the latter decades of the campaign, it was all about super-heroes saving the universe, with very little engagement with the actual world-setting.

Fro his letters, he wasn't all that keen on it. He mostly wanted to keep the players from meddling with the timelines and story arcs he was writing about in his novels. By and large, he did succeed in that, and I think he was helped in this by the very different play style of that period.
That's just my take on it, Uncle. It's not the ultimate truth, nor do I ever pretend it is:).

And yes, funny enough, high-power characters are easier to drive away from stuff you don't want them to meddle with, just show them a shiny;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 10, 2016, 02:23:14 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;896898
I wasn't able to find those particular stories...However, I did pick up a few volumes of Frasier's "Flashman" books at my local second hand book shop...!!! Uncle thank you for the tip!!!

H:0)


Cool! The McAuslan series, which was recently published in a single volume that had all three books in it, is one of those things that I think should be on every GM's book shelf. Worst comes to worst:

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-McAuslan-George-MacDonald-Fraser/dp/1602396566 (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-McAuslan-George-MacDonald-Fraser/dp/1602396566)

And there are also his two best other books - "Quartered Safe Out Here" and "The Steel Bonnets" - as well. All three have lots of things that a GM can use either 'as is' or adapt to their campaign. Flashy's mis-adventures are also a treat; low comedy, perhaps, but fun nonetheless.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 10, 2016, 02:24:26 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;896924
That's just my take on it, Uncle. It's not the ultimate truth, nor do I ever pretend it is:).

And yes, funny enough, high-power characters are easier to drive away from stuff you don't want them to meddle with, just show them a shiny;).

Understood; very accurate,though! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 10, 2016, 02:25:01 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;896924
That's just my take on it, Uncle. It's not the ultimate truth, nor do I ever pretend it is:).

And yes, funny enough, high-power characters are easier to drive away from stuff you don't want them to meddle with, just show them a shiny;).


Understood; very accurate,though! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 10, 2016, 09:03:17 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;897004
Cool! The McAuslan series, which was recently published in a single volume that had all three books in it, is one of those things that I think should be on every GM's book shelf. Worst comes to worst:

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-McAuslan-George-MacDonald-Fraser/dp/1602396566 (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-McAuslan-George-MacDonald-Fraser/dp/1602396566)

And there are also his two best other books - "Quartered Safe Out Here" and "The Steel Bonnets" - as well. All three have lots of things that a GM can use either 'as is' or adapt to their campaign. Flashy's mis-adventures are also a treat; low comedy, perhaps, but fun nonetheless.


Uncle,

I saw the McAuslan book for a great price somewhere. I just have to find it again. As for the "Flashman" books, I'm a sucker for great cover art! Thanks again. Back to my travels...Take care.

H:0)

PS I love the way your Tsu'urum's floors turned out! Great job. I can't wait to see what you fill it with...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 11, 2016, 01:59:30 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;897029
Uncle,

I saw the McAuslan book for a great price somewhere. I just have to find it again. As for the "Flashman" books, I'm a sucker for great cover art! Thanks again. Back to my travels...Take care.

H:0)
PS I love the way your Tsu'urum's floors turned out! Great job. I can't wait to see what you fill it with...

Great! Keep looking - it's worth it.

Thank you for the compliment! This was a fun little project, and I really enjoyed getting it done. I'm still dithering over varnishing the paper with a matte varnish or not - I'll see what I have in stock, and go from there. This is the kind of thing that can add a lot of a game, if it suits your play style, and is quick and easy to make. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 11, 2016, 01:11:13 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;897138
Great! Keep looking - it's worth it.

Thank you for the compliment! This was a fun little project, and I really enjoyed getting it done. I'm still dithering over varnishing the paper with a matte varnish or not - I'll see what I have in stock, and go from there. This is the kind of thing that can add a lot of a game, if it suits your play style, and is quick and easy to make. :)

At $2.44 for the complete McAuslan stories, I think I made a good deal!!! Thanks

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on May 11, 2016, 07:56:44 PM
What is the consensus about using NPCs to "guide" players actions.
Providing correct options and answers to the situations and puzzles that confront the players?

Should an effort be made to "save the game" by NPC intervention?

Are the days of "win or lose on your own merit"  long past?

How do you feel playing in a game that if you really get in over your head the GM will save you?

EPT's "Save or Die" type of rules make random chance deadly.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 11, 2016, 08:21:17 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;897264
What is the consensus about using NPCs to "guide" players actions.
Providing correct options and answers to the situations and puzzles that confront the players?
The consensus seems to be that players don't enjoy that sort of game. And the more guiding and solving is done by NPCs the less players tend to like it.

Quote
Should an effort be made to "save the game" by NPC intervention?
(1) No.

(2) Save the game from what?

Quote
Are the days of "win or lose on your own merit"  long past?
(1) A lot of things in an RPG aren't a simple case of win or lose.

(2) No.

Quote
How do you feel playing in a game that if you really get in over your head the GM will save you?
Somewhere in the neighborhood of annoyed and/or bored.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 11, 2016, 09:50:21 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;897264
What is the consensus about using NPCs to "guide" players actions.
Providing correct options and answers to the situations and puzzles that confront the players?

Should an effort be made to "save the game" by NPC intervention?

Are the days of "win or lose on your own merit"  long past?

How do you feel playing in a game that if you really get in over your head the GM will save you?

EPT's "Save or Die" type of rules make random chance deadly.
=


I think that you bring up some valid questions, and here is a very long reply.

In my personal experience any one who has DM'ed a long running campaign has had, on occasion, to rely upon an NPC to advance the plot and sometimes this may be a subtle nudge to guide the party on to the right path. Unless I am mistaken the role of Firu baYeker, in Phil’s game, served this purpose. Now I don’t advocate having an NPC standing in the wings ready to provide the answer to the riddle that will save the day, or show them where all the traps are in the corridor. This is pointless, and one would have to ask themselves what’s the point of having a gaming group if the DM is going present both the challenge and solution without giving the players the chance try and solve the problem on their own? However, in my opinion I think that subtle, and I mean really subtle (read minimal), clues and directions are an integral part of any game, but just like cake a piece is great, but eating a whole cake at one sitting is not so great.

Yes and no. The only way that I could conceive of “‘save(ing) the game’ by NPC intervention” would be if the game were going to be destroyed due to my actions, either intentionally or as a result of my ignorance. For example, if the party are entitled a Saving Throw and I either refuse to let them have one or I don’t know that they are supposed to get one, and this leads to them being destroyed, then in all conscience, and in the spirit of fair play I would have to have some kind of intervention. However, if they are destroyed as a result of their own actions, stupidity, inattention, etc., well, then so be it. Shit happens.    

Win or lose, I guess depends on how you want to define these terms within the context of the game. For me, personally, everything that the party achieves is down to their own merits. My role is and has always been to be an impartial presenter of the story, and controller of the antagonists.  Any success enjoyed or loss suffered has been due to the actions of the players.  

Again, like I mentioned above, I present the situation in an unbiased manner, and if a player gets into a situation where they are over their heads well so be it. I will never maliciously place them there.  I remember once I had a very experienced player who was new to Tekumel. His character was a foreigner in Jakalla (kind of a barbarian in a boat), and I and the rest of the group spent some time giving him an overview of what Tsolyanu was like, the type of society, etc., He refused to accept the notion that in such a well ordered society one cannot walk around like it’s a typical D&D frontier town. He left the foreigner’s quarter (without permission), robbed and assaulted some wealthy individuals, publicly defaced a temple of Vimuhla, slandered the religious institutions as whole, and tried to take on the city guard. He was quickly subdued, and summarily impaled by the local captain of the city guard. He complained bitterly about how stupid the situation was that I “presented” him with, and that there was no way that his character had even a slight chance of survival. The fact that his character’s demise was totally of his own doing, and that he intentionally put himself into the situation where his guy was going to executed, after being warned by the other players that what he was doing was not a good idea was irrelevant to the player.

I am not sure what type of random chance you are specifically referring to. Do you mean Saving Throws, or are you referring to random encounters in general? I personally think that there should always be a chance of a character dieing in a game. After all, the same rules apply to the NPC’s and monsters. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 11, 2016, 11:24:16 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;897264
What is the consensus about using NPCs to "guide" players actions.
Providing correct options and answers to the situations and puzzles that confront the players?

Should an effort be made to "save the game" by NPC intervention?

Are the days of "win or lose on your own merit"  long past?

How do you feel playing in a game that if you really get in over your head the GM will save you?

EPT's "Save or Die" type of rules make random chance deadly.
=

Funny I was taking a break today and read this...GM's Guide To Adventure Writing by James Raggi,


http://roleplayingtips.com/readissue.php?number=489

It seems the way to go would be as nuetral as possible. Lord Asen and Lord Shemek bring up good points as well. Good luck.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 12, 2016, 12:10:57 AM
Absolutely not should NPC's "save" the "game."

The game is whatever happens.  If the players make a bad choice and all the PCs die, so be it.

And like Bren said, "save" it from what?  Once you start talking like that you are nearing the idea of the referee deciding how things "should" go, which notion should be consigned to the corrupted, worm-ridden filth of Sarku's lowest hells.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 12, 2016, 02:29:16 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;897199
At $2.44 for the complete McAuslan stories, I think I made a good deal!!! Thanks

H;0)


And there you go! :) And what's even better was that the author got bunches of letters from veterans all over the world, who told him that they had had the same things happen to them. I would venture to say that this kind of thing has been going on since the first Sumerian NCO had to deal with his very own Dirtiest Soldier In The World... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 12, 2016, 02:36:58 AM
From Greentongue:
What is the consensus about using NPCs to "guide" players actions.
Providing correct options and answers to the situations and puzzles that confront the players?


I'm assuming that you're asking what I saw in my time. The short answer is 'no'; NPCs were there to provide information and rumors, not to show us the 'right way' or the 'correct answer'. It was out jobs as players to do this.

Should an effort be made to "save the game" by NPC intervention?

No, I don't think so. I've seen games like this, and people got bored and walked away. I hate to say it, but if the game blows up then the game blows up. Learn from the disaster, and don;t do it again, if you can help it.

Are the days of "win or lose on your own merit"  long past?

If they are, then I'm getting out of gaming. I can build one hack of a railway in all that space in the basement.

How do you feel playing in a game that if you really get in over your head the GM will save you?

I never played in a game like this; Phil and Dave were quite up front that if you did something stupid, you had to deal with what happened. I run my games the same way, and I think I would politely leave any game like this that I found myself in. It's not what I'm there for.

EPT's "Save or Die" type of rules make random chance deadly.

Exactly. When we did something in Phil's campaign, we had to deal with that and what happened.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 12, 2016, 02:37:49 AM
Quote from: Bren;897269
The consensus seems to be that players don't enjoy that sort of game. And the more guiding and solving is done by NPCs the less players tend to like it.


(1) No.

(2) Save the game from what?

(1) A lot of things in an RPG aren't a simple case of win or lose.

(2) No.

Somewhere in the neighborhood of annoyed and/or bored.


I'd agree with all of this.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 12, 2016, 02:40:51 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;897276
I think that you bring up some valid questions, and here is a very long reply.

In my personal experience any one who has DM'ed a long running campaign has had, on occasion, to rely upon an NPC to advance the plot and sometimes this may be a subtle nudge to guide the party on to the right path. Unless I am mistaken the role of Firu baYeker, in Phil’s game, served this purpose. Now I don’t advocate having an NPC standing in the wings ready to provide the answer to the riddle that will save the day, or show them where all the traps are in the corridor. This is pointless, and one would have to ask themselves what’s the point of having a gaming group if the DM is going present both the challenge and solution without giving the players the chance try and solve the problem on their own? However, in my opinion I think that subtle, and I mean really subtle (read minimal), clues and directions are an integral part of any game, but just like cake a piece is great, but eating a whole cake at one sitting is not so great.

Yes and no. The only way that I could conceive of “‘save(ing) the game’ by NPC intervention” would be if the game were going to be destroyed due to my actions, either intentionally or as a result of my ignorance. For example, if the party are entitled a Saving Throw and I either refuse to let them have one or I don’t know that they are supposed to get one, and this leads to them being destroyed, then in all conscience, and in the spirit of fair play I would have to have some kind of intervention. However, if they are destroyed as a result of their own actions, stupidity, inattention, etc., well, then so be it. Shit happens.    

Win or lose, I guess depends on how you want to define these terms within the context of the game. For me, personally, everything that the party achieves is down to their own merits. My role is and has always been to be an impartial presenter of the story, and controller of the antagonists.  Any success enjoyed or loss suffered has been due to the actions of the players.  

Again, like I mentioned above, I present the situation in an unbiased manner, and if a player gets into a situation where they are over their heads well so be it. I will never maliciously place them there.  I remember once I had a very experienced player who was new to Tekumel. His character was a foreigner in Jakalla (kind of a barbarian in a boat), and I and the rest of the group spent some time giving him an overview of what Tsolyanu was like, the type of society, etc., He refused to accept the notion that in such a well ordered society one cannot walk around like it’s a typical D&D frontier town. He left the foreigner’s quarter (without permission), robbed and assaulted some wealthy individuals, publicly defaced a temple of Vimuhla, slandered the religious institutions as whole, and tried to take on the city guard. He was quickly subdued, and summarily impaled by the local captain of the city guard. He complained bitterly about how stupid the situation was that I “presented” him with, and that there was no way that his character had even a slight chance of survival. The fact that his character’s demise was totally of his own doing, and that he intentionally put himself into the situation where his guy was going to executed, after being warned by the other players that what he was doing was not a good idea was irrelevant to the player.

I am not sure what type of random chance you are specifically referring to. Do you mean Saving Throws, or are you referring to random encounters in general? I personally think that there should always be a chance of a character dieing in a game. After all, the same rules apply to the NPC’s and monsters. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

Shemek.


Agreed, with one note. Firu ba Yeker only gave us information, in the form or rumors or gossip. It was always up to us to do the legwork to find out what was really happening. After that, is was then up to us to make the decision to follow up and go off on an adventure. Phil always had a handful of plot lines handy for us to pick and choose from; I'm still finding out about the ones that we didn't look into!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 12, 2016, 02:43:26 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;897291
Funny I was taking a break today and read this...GM's Guide To Adventure Writing by James Raggi,


http://roleplayingtips.com/readissue.php?number=489

It seems the way to go would be as nuetral as possible. Lord Asen and Lord Shemek bring up good points as well. Good luck.

H:0)


I'd agree with that; it's the way Phil played, and I still do it that way. I think, and players I've had seem to confirm, that it's more of a challenge that way.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 12, 2016, 02:44:05 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;897305
Absolutely not should NPC's "save" the "game."

The game is whatever happens.  If the players make a bad choice and all the PCs die, so be it.

And like Bren said, "save" it from what?  Once you start talking like that you are nearing the idea of the referee deciding how things "should" go, which notion should be consigned to the corrupted, worm-ridden filth of Sarku's lowest hells.

Agreed. In no uncertain terms.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on May 12, 2016, 01:43:21 PM
Well, that is my method of play but was wondering if, since I don't play all that much, maybe I wasn't "doing it right".

The real challenge is making games with lower level characters fun.
If you start them higher, it is assumed they know more, when they don't.
Then you get the crash and burn from bumbling.
Leaves a bad taste IMHO.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 12, 2016, 01:56:37 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;897391
Well, that is my method of play but was wondering if, since I don't play all that much, maybe I wasn't "doing it right".

The real challenge is making games with lower level characters fun.
If you start them higher, it is assumed they know more, when they don't.
Then you get the crash and burn from bumbling.
Leaves a bad taste IMHO.
=

The very, very, very first time EVER I ran D&D at the University of Minnesota in October 1973... before I'd even met Phil, before I'd met Chirine... the first level adventurers were totally wiped out by a gang of 4 kobolds.

After five seconds of silence, one of the players... either Moose or Olav, I no longer remember which... said "Let's roll new characters and get those little fuckers!"

If that is not the reaction of your players to a TPK, get different players.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 12, 2016, 01:58:10 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;897328

If they are, then I'm getting out of gaming. I can build one hack of a railway in all that space in the basement.

You and me both.  Do I need to bring any tools over or do you have it covered?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 12, 2016, 06:19:51 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;897276
He left the foreigner’s quarter (without permission), robbed and assaulted some wealthy individuals, publicly defaced a temple of Vimuhla, slandered the religious institutions as whole, and tried to take on the city guard.
The only area of possible confusion to one new to Tekumel should be in regards to what the form of execution would be, not the fact of an execution.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on May 12, 2016, 06:28:46 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;897394
The very, very, very first time EVER I ran D&D at the University of Minnesota in October 1973... before I'd even met Phil, before I'd met Chirine... the first level adventurers were totally wiped out by a gang of 4 kobolds.

After five seconds of silence, one of the players... either Moose or Olav, I no longer remember which... said "Let's roll new characters and get those little fuckers!"

If that is not the reaction of your players to a TPK, get different players.


That type of players seem to be in short supply these days.
I've found the more common reaction is, "Lets play something else."
Having a million other choices makes doing something else much easier.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 12, 2016, 07:21:59 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;897264
What is the consensus about using NPCs to "guide" players actions.
I have plenty of those! Savants, sages, sorcerers, sacerdots, slayers-for-hire...patrons, clients and servants more demanding than some patrons,
The players just have to ask for advice, you know.
If you mean someone who keeps the PCs in line, though: No. They can get a wealthy patron that demands they do some things a certain way, but that's different. They can hire city guides, too. Again, not the same thing.

Quote
Providing correct options and answers to the situations and puzzles that confront the players?
What is "correct"?
I mean, is it good to avoid a fight with a duelist from a rival clan? Yes. Is it good to run so people would notice you chasing him, then kill him and then ask for shamtla because you were attacked without provocation? Again, yes. But if you had the "correct" answers to the first question, you wouldn't get to do that!
So, which one was the correct action? What would such an NPC advise?

Quote
Should an effort be made to "save the game" by NPC intervention?

Save...from what? Even a TPK is just the beginning of a new game.
Like, here's (http://www.metrolyrics.com/billy-the-kid-lyrics-marty-robbins.html) the story of a game that ended in a TPK.

Quote from: MetroLyrics
"Billy The Kid"

I'll sing you a true song of Billy the Kid
I'll sing of some desperate deeds that he did
'Way out in New Mexico long long ago
When a man's only chance was his own forty-four
When Billy the Kid was a very young lad
In old Silver City he went to the bad
'Way out in the West with a gun in his hand
At the age of twelve years he did kill his first man

There's Mexican maidens play guitars and sing
Songs about Billy, their boy bandit king
'Ere his young manhood has reached his sad end
With a notch an his pistol for twenty one men
Was on a sad night when poor Billy died
He said to his friend, "I'm not satisfied
There's twenty one men I have put bullets through
Sheriff Pat Garrett must make twenty two!"

I'll sing you how Billy the Kid met his fate
The bright moon was shinin', the hour was late
Shot down by Pat Garrett who once was his friend
The young outlaw's life is now come to an end
There's many a man with a face fine and fair
Who start out in life with a chance to be square
Just like poor Billy they wander astray
They'll lose their lives in the very same way

Marty Robbins - Billy The Kid Lyrics (MetroLyrics)
:D
So, what happens after this?
Well, easy: you play a character who hears the song and decides to top his idol's prowess-and maybe put it to better ends. Who says this is worse than playing Billie the Kid;)?

Quote
Are the days of "win or lose on your own merit"  long past?

Not just no, but (swear-of-your-choice) no! It's the natural way to play, and nothing natural can be suppressed for long (for good or ill:p).

This Saturday we're going on a session with a new GM. He has played a grand total of two session before, with me and has never GMed. During those, the guy also gave a run for our money to me (17 years of playing and Refereeing - Gronan, Chirine and Bren, please remember that I'm among the first generation/start of the second generation of Bulgarian players who actually had access to RPG books:)), another player who has started maybe a couple years after me, and totally eclipsed the guy who "only" had about 10 years of experience with RPGs.
I've asked him how he thinks people should run games. In response, he told me more or less that that they should be Referees, and present clues and opportunities if the players seem to wonder what to do next...:D

I'm confident he would do well;).

Quote
How do you feel playing in a game that if you really get in over your head the GM will save you?
I wonder why we're using those dice and rules.

Quote
EPT's "Save or Die" type of rules make random chance deadly.
True that. But first, that applies to your enemies as well. And second and more important...you don't have to use EPT if you don't like those rules. Bethorm is right there as an available alternative. 10 minutes of Internet searching will avail you a no small number of conversions to other systems if you prefer something different.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;897276
I am not sure what type of random chance you are specifically referring to. Do you mean Saving Throws, or are you referring to random encounters in general? I personally think that there should always be a chance of a character dieing in a game. After all, the same rules apply to the NPC’s and monsters. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

Shemek.
One of the reasons I like old school players is that they don't find such statements controversial:). They shouldn't be, IMO, but there you go...

Quote from: Hrugga;897291
Funny I was taking a break today and read this...GM's Guide To Adventure Writing by James Raggi,


http://roleplayingtips.com/readissue.php?number=489

It seems the way to go would be as nuetral as possible. Lord Asen and Lord Shemek bring up good points as well. Good luck.

H:0)
I believe you mean Lord Bren and Lord Shemek, since I hadn't posted yet,  but otherwise, I agree with your message. Neutral is best, IMNSHO. (Even if you have to join either a Stability or a Change temple, you can still remain Neutral...;))

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;897305
Absolutely not should NPC's "save" the "game."

The game is whatever happens.  If the players make a bad choice and all the PCs die, so be it.

And like Bren said, "save" it from what?  Once you start talking like that you are nearing the idea of the referee deciding how things "should" go, which notion should be consigned to the corrupted, worm-ridden filth of Sarku's lowest hells.
I'm sure you meant "the corrupted, worm-ridden filth of Sarku's lowest bowels", right:D?
(I'm also sure you'll get why I think it's a better way to put it).


Quote from: Greentongue;897391
Well, that is my method of play but was wondering if, since I don't play all that much, maybe I wasn't "doing it right".
Since we don't play with you, it's hard to tell.

Quote
The real challenge is making games with lower level characters fun.
Step 1: give them opportunities.
Step 2: profit.

Quote
If you start them higher, it is assumed they know more, when they don't.
Then you get the crash and burn from bumbling.
Leaves a bad taste IMHO.
Then don't use levels.
Yes, I'm serious. If you don't want them to be bumbling incompetents, start them at higher point totals, representing young prodigies.

Quote from: Bren;897430
The only area of possible confusion to one new to Tekumel should be in regards to what the form of execution would be, not the fact of an execution.
Some people, I've found, refuse to understand setting-related causal relationships. And then they complain that they got what they've brought on their heads.

Quote from: Greentongue;897431
That type of players seem to be in short supply these days.
I've found the more common reaction is, "Lets play something else."
Having a million other choices makes doing something else much easier.
=
Challenge them. Tell them Gronan's story and challenge them.
If they don't even react to that...well, yes, they're past saving. Recruit better ones!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 12, 2016, 10:22:28 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;897436
I have plenty of those! Savants, sages, sorcerers, sacerdots, slayers-for-hire...patrons, clients and servants more demanding than some patrons,
The players just have to ask for advice, you know.
If you mean someone who keeps the PCs in line, though: No. They can get a wealthy patron that demands they do some things a certain way, but that's different. They can hire city guides, too. Again, not the same thing.


What is "correct"?
I mean, is it good to avoid a fight with a duelist from a rival clan? Yes. Is it good to run so people would notice you chasing him, then kill him and then ask for shamtla because you were attacked without provocation? Again, yes. But if you had the "correct" answers to the first question, you wouldn't get to do that!
So, which one was the correct action? What would such an NPC advise?

 
Save...from what? Even a TPK is just the beginning of a new game.
Like, here's (http://www.metrolyrics.com/billy-the-kid-lyrics-marty-robbins.html) the story of a game that ended in a TPK.


:D
So, what happens after this?
Well, easy: you play a character who hears the song and decides to top his idol's prowess-and maybe put it to better ends. Who says this is worse than playing Billie the Kid;)?

 
Not just no, but (swear-of-your-choice) no! It's the natural way to play, and nothing natural can be suppressed for long (for good or ill:p).

This Saturday we're going on a session with a new GM. He has played a grand total of two session before, with me and has never GMed. During those, the guy also gave a run for our money to me (17 years of playing and Refereeing - Gronan, Chirine and Bren, please remember that I'm among the first generation/start of the second generation of Bulgarian players who actually had access to RPG books:)), another player who has started maybe a couple years after me, and totally eclipsed the guy who "only" had about 10 years of experience with RPGs.
I've asked him how he thinks people should run games. In response, he told me more or less that that they should be Referees, and present clues and opportunities if the players seem to wonder what to do next...:D

I'm confident he would do well;).


I wonder why we're using those dice and rules.


True that. But first, that applies to your enemies as well. And second and more important...you don't have to use EPT if you don't like those rules. Bethorm is right there as an available alternative. 10 minutes of Internet searching will avail you a no small number of conversions to other systems if you prefer something different.


One of the reasons I like old school players is that they don't find such statements controversial:). They shouldn't be, IMO, but there you go...


I believe you mean Lord Bren and Lord Shemek, since I hadn't posted yet,  but otherwise, I agree with your message. Neutral is best, IMNSHO. (Even if you have to join either a Stability or a Change temple, you can still remain Neutral...;))


I'm sure you meant "the corrupted, worm-ridden filth of Sarku's lowest bowels", right:D?
(I'm also sure you'll get why I think it's a better way to put it).



Since we don't play with you, it's hard to tell.


Step 1: give them opportunities.
Step 2: profit.


Then don't use levels.
Yes, I'm serious. If you don't want them to be bumbling incompetents, start them at higher point totals, representing young prodigies.


Some people, I've found, refuse to understand setting-related causal relationships. And then they complain that they got what they've brought on their heads.


Challenge them. Tell them Gronan's story and challenge them.
If they don't even react to that...well, yes, they're past saving. Recruit better ones!


Ha!!! Forgive. My humblest apologies to Lord Bren...I hope there will be no need to take this matter any further!!! Somehow Firu told me you would be posting Lord Asen...I sometimes get ahead of myself(I can never remember which nexus points I use to come and go...)!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 13, 2016, 01:52:43 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;897276

Again, like I mentioned above, I present the situation in an unbiased manner, and if a player gets into a situation where they are over their heads well so be it. I will never maliciously place them there.  I remember once I had a very experienced player who was new to Tekumel. His character was a foreigner in Jakalla (kind of a barbarian in a boat), and I and the rest of the group spent some time giving him an overview of what Tsolyanu was like, the type of society, etc., He refused to accept the notion that in such a well ordered society one cannot walk around like it’s a typical D&D frontier town. He left the foreigner’s quarter (without permission), robbed and assaulted some wealthy individuals, publicly defaced a temple of Vimuhla, slandered the religious institutions as whole, and tried to take on the city guard. He was quickly subdued, and summarily impaled by the local captain of the city guard. He complained bitterly about how stupid the situation was that I “presented” him with, and that there was no way that his character had even a slight chance of survival. The fact that his character’s demise was totally of his own doing, and that he intentionally put himself into the situation where his guy was going to executed, after being warned by the other players that what he was doing was not a good idea was irrelevant to the player.

Shemek.


I'd like to revisit this, if I may; Bren is right - this guy is up for the high ride, assuming that the city guard gets to him before the outraged clans, outraged temple guards, and the Imperium itself do. This is an incredible catalog of bad decisions, and what I find astounding is that he chose to ignore the other members of the group and their advice. I would expect that the party told the raging mob that came to get him that they'd never seen the guy before in their lives.

I will admit; if I had a player like this, I would have run the game session out - mostly for the rest of the group - and then once I'd said "Game Over" I'd have to tell him that he'd been a jerk to his fellow players and that he/she/it was no longer welcome in my house or game group. I have no patience for this kind of thing, and I will admit to having a very short fuse.

Incredible. Simply incredible.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 13, 2016, 01:54:30 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;897391
Well, that is my method of play but was wondering if, since I don't play all that much, maybe I wasn't "doing it right".

The real challenge is making games with lower level characters fun.
If you start them higher, it is assumed they know more, when they don't.
Then you get the crash and burn from bumbling.
Leaves a bad taste IMHO.
=


Very true. I start them lower, and dangle plots that they can handle. Seems to work.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 13, 2016, 02:00:05 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;897395
You and me both.  Do I need to bring any tools over or do you have it covered?


Let me look in the workshop. Table saw, two band saws, two circular saws, one sawz-all, three jigsaws, one Rotozip saw, four Dremels, four corded drills, three cordless drills, bench sander, orbital sander, four 50' triple tap mains leads, four 25' hex tap mains leads, three chests full of hand-tools, and a garage full of lumber.

I think I got it covered.

(And it's all left-overs from my time in theater and event production. I have enough to fully equip a huge crew...) :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 13, 2016, 10:20:57 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;897467
Let me look in the workshop. Table saw, two band saws, two circular saws, one sawz-all, three jigsaws, one Rotozip saw, four Dremels, four corded drills, three cordless drills, bench sander, orbital sander, four 50' triple tap mains leads, four 25' hex tap mains leads, three chests full of hand-tools, and a garage full of lumber.

I think I got it covered.

(And it's all left-overs from my time in theater and event production. I have enough to fully equip a huge crew...) :)

I'm not sure. It'll be close, but I think you'll be able to pull it off.:D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 13, 2016, 12:57:53 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;897464
I'd like to revisit this, if I may; Bren is right - this guy is up for the high ride, assuming that the city guard gets to him before the outraged clans, outraged temple guards, and the Imperium itself do. This is an incredible catalog of bad decisions, and what I find astounding is that he chose to ignore the other members of the group and their advice. I would expect that the party told the raging mob that came to get him that they'd never seen the guy before in their lives.

I will admit; if I had a player like this, I would have run the game session out - mostly for the rest of the group - and then once I'd said "Game Over" I'd have to tell him that he'd been a jerk to his fellow players and that he/she/it was no longer welcome in my house or game group. I have no patience for this kind of thing, and I will admit to having a very short fuse.

Incredible. Simply incredible.


This was a strange situation. To me it seemed as if he were intentionally trying to sabotage the game, although I have no proof of this. For some reason he just couldn’t wrap his head around the fact that he was adventuring in a very old, very traditional society with well established laws and institutions. I tried to explain it to him after the fact by comparing Tsolyanu to our modern society. As I said to him: “What do you think would happen to you if you went downtown, robbed and assaulted some people, broke the windows of some churches, or synagogues, or mosques, ran into a religious service and told the worshippers that they were wrong in their beliefs and their God didn’t exist, then decided to take on some cops while carrying a big knife or gun in your hand? The end result would be the same: a dead idiot.” He tried to justify his actions by claiming that he was playing “in character”, and as a “hero” he and the party should always be given the benefit of the doubt. When I asked him what doubt he was specifically referring to there was only silence. When I asked him in what world is robbing and beating up an innocent man considered heroic there was even more silence. Like one of the original players from my group told him: “Play like a retard. That’s what you get.”
By this stage of the game the core of the group had been playing together with the same characters for 13 years, and they knew that there were always consequences if they acted foolishly in the game. Furthermore, the party was in Tsolyanu secretly and magically disguised, on a mission, undertaken at the behest of the Temple of Ksarul that was never sanctioned, let alone commissioned. They weren’t going to risk exposure and the corresponding repercussions by sticking their necks out for an obviously insane miscreant (from the characters’ perspective). The group considered quietly trying to offer some inducements, but in the end they realised that it was a lost cause, and quietly slipped away after vociferously baying for the blood of the offending character, and ensuring that he was silenced.
 As the above mentioned player shouted to the City Watchmen "Stick three poles up his arse without any grease!" While  another one of the original players so eloquently said to the local Captain after the offending character had been apprehended:  “Somethin’s gotta be done about these disgraceful forner rabble. Comin’ in the Empire an doin’ whatever they wants (noisily spitting on the ground).” While a third player/NPC surreptitiously cast a spell ensuring that the apprehended couldn't talk if interrogated. Amazingly, a magistrate who just happened to be in the area at the time of the arrest (and a follower of Ksarul;)) was able, after hearing the facts, to quickly and "legally" pronounce judgment: "Captain, have your men deal with this immediately" he officiously commanded. "I will not have it be said that we Tsolyani do not  follow the laws of our land even when dealing with barbarians".  Funny thing though, later no one could seem to recall who this magistrate was, but all were in agreement who witnessed the events that the accused's silence, when questioned by this most efficient and wise arbiter of the law, obviously indicated his guilt. :p
Back then my players were heavily involved with certain unknown  societies in the Doomed Prince's Temple. Looking back at it now it's actually "funny" how quickly the group adopted the mind set of people whose very lives were a deception. Some of the game sessions from this period of the campaign are very dark indeed. Even though the above mentioned incident was an absolute absurdity, the party's reaction to the event was handled brilliantly.  
That was the first and last time that this guy played in one of my games.  

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 13, 2016, 02:12:05 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;897548
This was a strange situation. To me it seemed as if he were intentionally trying to sabotage the game, although I have no proof of this. For some reason he just couldn’t wrap his head around the fact that he was adventuring in a very old, very traditional society with well established laws and institutions. I tried to explain it to him after the fact by comparing Tsolyanu to our modern society. As I said to him: “What do you think would happen to you if you went downtown, robbed and assaulted some people, broke the windows of some churches, or synagogues, or mosques, ran into a religious service and told the worshippers that they were wrong in their beliefs and their God didn’t exist, then decided to take on some cops while carrying a big knife or gun in your hand? The end result would be the same: a dead idiot.” He tried to justify his actions by claiming that he was playing “in character”, and as a “hero” he and the party should always be given the benefit of the doubt. When I asked him what doubt he was specifically referring to there was only silence. When I asked him in what world is robbing and beating up an innocent man considered heroic there was even more silence. Like one of the original players from my group told him: “Play like a retard. That’s what you get.”

[snipped, if that's all right...]

That was the first and last time that this guy played in one of my games.  

Shemek.

What you said to the guy. There's, to me anyway, a huge difference between a player not fitting in with the group, and this kind of thing. In the former case, we'd all simply agree that things were not working out, and we'd part ways pretty friendly.

What this guy sounds like is just what happened in the very early days of Phil's campaign; see also Gary Fine's book "Shared Fantasy" for an account. Some of the original players in Phil's group played things just this way, which is why we split off from them in the middle of '76. Back at that time, there was a play style that Gronan's mentioned, trying to deliberately 'break the campaign'; this sounds just like it. I don't know how many times over the years that I have heard "I'm just playing in character" used as an excuse for very bad playing. Likewise "I'm a hero" as a reason to escape the consequences of his own actions.

I'm still utterly astonished that this guy didn't seem to want to listen to the other players. I mean, in the circles in which I travelled, if you were the new guy in the group is was always considered polite to pay attention to 'the regulars'; and it was also smarter, as they usually knew what not to do in the world-setting.

I keep a list of people I will not game with. This guy is typical of the people on that list.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 13, 2016, 04:24:09 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;897571
What you said to the guy. There's, to me anyway, a huge difference between a player not fitting in with the group, and this kind of thing. In the former case, we'd all simply agree that things were not working out, and we'd part ways pretty friendly.

What this guy sounds like is just what happened in the very early days of Phil's campaign; see also Gary Fine's book "Shared Fantasy" for an account. Some of the original players in Phil's group played things just this way, which is why we split off from them in the middle of '76. Back at that time, there was a play style that Gronan's mentioned, trying to deliberately 'break the campaign'; this sounds just like it. I don't know how many times over the years that I have heard "I'm just playing in character" used as an excuse for very bad playing. Likewise "I'm a hero" as a reason to escape the consequences of his own actions.

I'm still utterly astonished that this guy didn't seem to want to listen to the other players. I mean, in the circles in which I travelled, if you were the new guy in the group is was always considered polite to pay attention to 'the regulars'; and it was also smarter, as they usually knew what not to do in the world-setting.

I keep a list of people I will not game with. This guy is typical of the people on that list.


He was an odd fellow in many respects. Although he may have been a poor player he sure was a pretty good DM. One thing though, I know for a fact that he would not have allowed those shenanigans in his game. This is why I think his behaviour was a deliberate attempt at wrecking my game. Perhaps it was an attempt to dominate the group and the steer the story in another direction, or maybe he was hoping to get some new players for his group? Maybe he was just being a prick? Sometimes the easiest explanation is the closest to the truth. He definitely was not invited to any future games after this little episode.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 14, 2016, 01:28:50 AM
"Most people are booger-eating morons" explains an amazing number of situations.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 14, 2016, 01:41:28 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;897605
He was an odd fellow in many respects. Although he may have been a poor player he sure was a pretty good DM. One thing though, I know for a fact that he would not have allowed those shenanigans in his game. This is why I think his behaviour was a deliberate attempt at wrecking my game. Perhaps it was an attempt to dominate the group and the steer the story in another direction, or maybe he was hoping to get some new players for his group? Maybe he was just being a prick? Sometimes the easiest explanation is the closest to the truth. He definitely was not invited to any future games after this little episode.

Shemek.

I'm still boggled by this guy's actions. I think your possible reasons are accurate - I've seen this kind of thing myself, over time, and I make notes...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 14, 2016, 01:42:14 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;897687
"Most people are booger-eating morons" explains an amazing number of situations.

Oh, very true! I'm still boggled, though... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 14, 2016, 05:26:11 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;897548
This was a strange situation. To me it seemed as if he were intentionally trying to sabotage the game, although I have no proof of this. For some reason he just couldn’t wrap his head around the fact that he was adventuring in a very old, very traditional society with well established laws and institutions.

That's all the explanation you need, really:).
Seriously, I've seen it time and time again. Some people that have played "murderhobos in the great D&D tradition" (not always D&D, but most often), seem to have some kind of "culture shock" when the setting's wheels turn, and grind their characters to dust for behaving like murderhobos.
If they've played with a fudging GM, too, you often hear the line about "them being the heroes", too. Again, speaking from experience:D!


Quote
As the above mentioned player shouted to the City Watchmen "Stick three poles up his arse without any grease!" While  another one of the original players so eloquently said to the local Captain after the offending character had been apprehended:  “Somethin’s gotta be done about these disgraceful forner rabble. Comin’ in the Empire an doin’ whatever they wants (noisily spitting on the ground).” While a third player/NPC surreptitiously cast a spell ensuring that the apprehended couldn't talk if interrogated. Amazingly, a magistrate who just happened to be in the area at the time of the arrest (and a follower of Ksarul;)) was able, after hearing the facts, to quickly and "legally" pronounce judgment: "Captain, have your men deal with this immediately" he officiously commanded. "I will not have it be said that we Tsolyani do not  follow the laws of our land even when dealing with barbarians".  Funny thing though, later no one could seem to recall who this magistrate was, but all were in agreement who witnessed the events that the accused's silence, when questioned by this most efficient and wise arbiter of the law, obviously indicated his guilt. :p
Back then my players were heavily involved with certain unknown  societies in the Doomed Prince's Temple. Looking back at it now it's actually "funny" how quickly the group adopted the mind set of people whose very lives were a deception. Some of the game sessions from this period of the campaign are very dark indeed. Even though the above mentioned incident was an absolute absurdity, the party's reaction to the event was handled brilliantly.

BTW, your players dealt with it excellently and in-character:D.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;897571
I don't know how many times over the years that I have heard "I'm just playing in character" used as an excuse for very bad playing. Likewise "I'm a hero" as a reason to escape the consequences of his own actions.

Over the years, people have come up with the truism that "I'm playing my character" is no excuse for being obnoxious. It's generally true, but I don't think that's the right reaction.
The right reaction in my book is "no, you're not, unless your character is a homicidal something-pathic idiot...apologies to any genuine idiots that don't share those traits". Then you can give him a version of Shemek hiTankolel's explanation...:D

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;897605
He was an odd fellow in many respects. Although he may have been a poor player he sure was a pretty good DM. One thing though, I know for a fact that he would not have allowed those shenanigans in his game.

Amazingly, some people are just THAT good at compartmentalization...especially if it has worked with other GMs in the past;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;897687
"Most people are booger-eating morons" explains an amazing number of situations.

+1 and it's also easiest explanation.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 14, 2016, 08:54:39 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;897716

Over the years, people have come up with the truism that "I'm playing my character" is no excuse for being obnoxious. It's generally true, but I don't think that's the right reaction.
The right reaction in my book is "no, you're not, unless your character is a homicidal something-pathic idiot...apologies to any genuine idiots that don't share those traits". Then you can give him a version of Shemek hiTankolel's explanation...:D


You know, I think you've really articulated the truism, here. I think we're all agreed on what counts as the kind of antics that Shemek and his players had to endure, and the kind of really good role-playing that can be pretty obnoxious. I've seen both the former and the latter, and the latter - while it might be annoying at the time - comes to be a treasure to behold. Gronan, for example, has done some truly obnoxious stuff in character, and it was very, very obvious that it was the character - not him. He did a wonderful send-up of the character 'Miles Gloriosus' from "A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum" (see YouTube) and we all just roared with laughter as his character dug himself in deeper and deeper. For us, back in the day, that was all part of 'role-playing'; just as 'don't be a dick' was as well... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 14, 2016, 10:21:08 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;897716


1.BTW, your players dealt with it excellently and in-character:D.

2.Amazingly, some people are just THAT good at compartmentalization...especially if it has worked with other GMs in the past;).



1. I'll tell you Asen, those guys when they were on their game, I had to run to keep a step ahead of them. They were all a bunch of extremely smart, very competitive, and well read people. They tried, and used, every trick and  tactic in the book to try and "beat me". To them "winning" in D&D was handily defeating everything that I threw at them, in as short a period of time as they could. When we talk about those days they always say do you remember when we defeated that demon in 2 rounds, or when we did this in 3 rounds. :D

2. I see it at work all of the time. To me it's just strange when people behave this way. :confused: I once had another "one session player" who accused me fudging die rolls, because "he always got hit" in combat, which of course, was complete bullshit. Or the other time a player called me a "killer DM" because characters actually died in my game. To which I replied:
"I don't kill the characters. It's the dice that kills the characters". :p  

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 14, 2016, 10:35:23 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;897862
You know, I think you've really articulated the truism, here. I think we're all agreed on what counts as the kind of antics that Shemek and his players had to endure, and the kind of really good role-playing that can be pretty obnoxious. I've seen both the former and the latter, and the latter - while it might be annoying at the time - comes to be a treasure to behold. Gronan, for example, has done some truly obnoxious stuff in character, and it was very, very obvious that it was the character - not him. He did a wonderful send-up of the character 'Miles Gloriosus' from "A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum" (see YouTube) and we all just roared with laughter as his character dug himself in deeper and deeper. For us, back in the day, that was all part of 'role-playing'; just as 'don't be a dick' was as well... :)


Chirine,

Even though as gamers and DM’s we have to occasionally deal with pests, sometimes there’s light in the darkness. The storm clouds part and an absolutely brilliant session is played out by folks who, for a brief moment, become their characters. Like your recent grand gaming session, and the Glorious General’s channelling of Miles Gloriosus, something happened last night that truly demonstrated to me why I like this hobby. Recently I started a new campaign. I think that it’s been about 3 or 4 years since I last tried to run a game. I’ve tried gaming with different individuals, and new groups, but the results have always been the same: a couple of game sessions, and the campaign is quietly folded away never again to see the light of day. This time I was determined to set up a regular campaign. I decided to go back to basics, and a major part of that was getting as many of the original members of my old group together as I could, and going back to Tekumel. It took me about half a year to lay the groundwork, and get the commitments from the players. All this work and persistence finally paid off! Yesterday the group clicked, and it was like I was transported back to 1985.  Although only two of the original players are playing they really tapped into the old vibe that was such a basic component of all those sessions we gamed 30+ years ago. The slipping into character and staying there was a joy to behold. One of the “old guys’ ” characters got deafened after coming out the worst for wear in a combat with a Hli’ir. I told the player that he had become deaf, and without missing a beat he turned to the rest of the party and at the top of his voice said “WHAT! WHAT DID YOU SAY? SPEAK UP, I CAN’T HEAR YOU!” I almost fell off my chair laughing, to which he replied: “WHAT’S SO FUNNY? I THINK THAT THING DEAFENED ME!  He kept this up for another three hours, always in character. Sneaking up on things wasn’t really an option until they managed to keep him quite. :D These are the kind of games I remember having “back in the day”. Everyone played their character the way it was supposed to be played, and there was a tonne of laughter at the table most of the time.

Similar to what you used to experience with Phil and the Thursday Night Group.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 15, 2016, 12:29:30 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;897868
Chirine,

Even though as gamers and DM’s we have to occasionally deal with pests, sometimes there’s light in the darkness. The storm clouds part and an absolutely brilliant session is played out by folks who, for a brief moment, become their characters. Like your recent grand gaming session, and the Glorious General’s channelling of Miles Gloriosus, something happened last night that truly demonstrated to me why I like this hobby. Recently I started a new campaign. I think that it’s been about 3 or 4 years since I last tried to run a game. I’ve tried gaming with different individuals, and new groups, but the results have always been the same: a couple of game sessions, and the campaign is quietly folded away never again to see the light of day. This time I was determined to set up a regular campaign. I decided to go back to basics, and a major part of that was getting as many of the original members of my old group together as I could, and going back to Tekumel. It took me about half a year to lay the groundwork, and get the commitments from the players. All this work and persistence finally paid off! Yesterday the group clicked, and it was like I was transported back to 1985.  Although only two of the original players are playing they really tapped into the old vibe that was such a basic component of all those sessions we gamed 30+ years ago. The slipping into character and staying there was a joy to behold. One of the “old guys’ ” characters got deafened after coming out the worst for wear in a combat with a Hli’ir. I told the player that he had become deaf, and without missing a beat he turned to the rest of the party and at the top of his voice said “WHAT! WHAT DID YOU SAY? SPEAK UP, I CAN’T HEAR YOU!” I almost fell off my chair laughing, to which he replied: “WHAT’S SO FUNNY? I THINK THAT THING DEAFENED ME!  He kept this up for another three hours, always in character. Sneaking up on things wasn’t really an option until they managed to keep him quite. :D These are the kind of games I remember having “back in the day”. Everyone played their character the way it was supposed to be played, and there was a tonne of laughter at the table most of the time.

Similar to what you used to experience with Phil and the Thursday Night Group.

Shemek

This. This is what I live for, in my gaming, and why I have all this crap in the basement (and out in the shed). This is when the magic works, and everybody slips the bonds of their present reality and we step forth on the path of wonder.

Laughter at the table. Does this ruin immersion? No, in my aged opinion; it tell me that we're having fun.

I've been invited out to a game with the original Blackmoor players, and I'm debating going. It's all the early 1970s guys, and I don't really know many of them. And, I don't want 'serious art form'; I want to laugh a lot, and enjoy my time with my friends. We'll see, I guess...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 15, 2016, 01:20:29 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;897451
Ha!!! Forgive. My humblest apologies to Lord Bren...I hope there will be no need to take this matter any further!!!
No need. We're cool. :)

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;897548
This was a strange situation. To me it seemed as if he were intentionally trying to sabotage the game, although I have no proof of this.
Sometimes the simplest solution is correct. This may have been one of those times.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 15, 2016, 09:01:27 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;897886
This. This is what I live for, in my gaming, and why I have all this crap in the basement (and out in the shed). This is when the magic works, and everybody slips the bonds of their present reality and we step forth on the path of wonder.

Laughter at the table. Does this ruin immersion? No, in my aged opinion; it tell me that we're having fun.

I've been invited out to a game with the original Blackmoor players, and I'm debating going. It's all the early 1970s guys, and I don't really know many of them. And, I don't want 'serious art form'; I want to laugh a lot, and enjoy my time with my friends. We'll see, I guess...


Do it Chirine, what have you got to lose? If it's not fun then you can always bugger off at any time. Besides, this could be the beginning of a regular game with a group of like-minded individuals. Will the Glorious General be attending? Anyway, I'd go if presented with a similar opportunity.
(Clink - the sound of two Qirgals being dropped on the table.:) )

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 15, 2016, 12:18:04 PM
You know, memory is funny.  I remember doing my portrayal of Miles Gloriosus, but I DON'T remember what I did or why.  Usually some event happens that triggers the explanation.

And, honestly, despite what some would say, experience has taught me that MOST people think I have good comedic skills (there's always one...).  So, when I try to be funny, I AM funny.  I also have a quite good sense of comedic timing.

What makes a character like Miles Gloriosus funny is the disconnect between reality; even as the situation goes further and further into the soup, he is more and more convinced that he is charming the women, awing the men, routing the foe, and frightening the sheep.  And the greater the disconnect between his words and actions and the actual situation, the funnier it is.

Dang, I wish I could remember the details!  Fortunately I'm sure Chirine took notes and we'll see it in his book.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 15, 2016, 01:40:53 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;897862
You know, I think you've really articulated the truism, here. I think we're all agreed on what counts as the kind of antics that Shemek and his players had to endure, and the kind of really good role-playing that can be pretty obnoxious. I've seen both the former and the latter, and the latter - while it might be annoying at the time - comes to be a treasure to behold. Gronan, for example, has done some truly obnoxious stuff in character, and it was very, very obvious that it was the character - not him. He did a wonderful send-up of the character 'Miles Gloriosus' from "A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum" (see YouTube) and we all just roared with laughter as his character dug himself in deeper and deeper. For us, back in the day, that was all part of 'role-playing'; just as 'don't be a dick' was as well... :)

Yes.
And since it wasn't a treasure to behold, I suspect it wasn't that. Just a nonsensical routine that worked before...:)

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;897866
1. I'll tell you Asen, those guys when they were on their game, I had to run to keep a step ahead of them. They were all a bunch of extremely smart, very competitive, and well read people. They tried, and used, every trick and  tactic in the book to try and "beat me". To them "winning" in D&D was handily defeating everything that I threw at them, in as short a period of time as they could. When we talk about those days they always say do you remember when we defeated that demon in 2 rounds, or when we did this in 3 rounds. :D

2. I see it at work all of the time. To me it's just strange when people behave this way. :confused: I once had another "one session player" who accused me fudging die rolls, because "he always got hit" in combat, which of course, was complete bullshit. Or the other time a player called me a "killer DM" because characters actually died in my game. To which I replied:
"I don't kill the characters. It's the dice that kills the characters". :p  

Shemek

I like those kind of players as well. I hope more of my players will eventually learn how to be like that, too.

And I've had to make both of these statements as well. Only my answer was "why are you even surprised when you chose to accept a fight that would normally be difficult, but fight under conditions where you're at extreme disadvantage?"
It was a jaw-dropping moment for the guy, I'll tell you, seems like his previous GM didn't account for the environment and stuff like slippery terrain didn't screw over people that depend on manoeuvre to keep alive...:D

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;897868
Chirine,

Even though as gamers and DM’s we have to occasionally deal with pests, sometimes there’s light in the darkness. The storm clouds part and an absolutely brilliant session is played out by folks who, for a brief moment, become their characters. Like your recent grand gaming session, and the Glorious General’s channelling of Miles Gloriosus, something happened last night that truly demonstrated to me why I like this hobby. Recently I started a new campaign. I think that it’s been about 3 or 4 years since I last tried to run a game. I’ve tried gaming with different individuals, and new groups, but the results have always been the same: a couple of game sessions, and the campaign is quietly folded away never again to see the light of day. This time I was determined to set up a regular campaign. I decided to go back to basics, and a major part of that was getting as many of the original members of my old group together as I could, and going back to Tekumel. It took me about half a year to lay the groundwork, and get the commitments from the players. All this work and persistence finally paid off! Yesterday the group clicked, and it was like I was transported back to 1985.  Although only two of the original players are playing they really tapped into the old vibe that was such a basic component of all those sessions we gamed 30+ years ago. The slipping into character and staying there was a joy to behold. One of the “old guys’ ” characters got deafened after coming out the worst for wear in a combat with a Hli’ir. I told the player that he had become deaf, and without missing a beat he turned to the rest of the party and at the top of his voice said “WHAT! WHAT DID YOU SAY? SPEAK UP, I CAN’T HEAR YOU!” I almost fell off my chair laughing, to which he replied: “WHAT’S SO FUNNY? I THINK THAT THING DEAFENED ME!  He kept this up for another three hours, always in character. Sneaking up on things wasn’t really an option until they managed to keep him quite. :D These are the kind of games I remember having “back in the day”. Everyone played their character the way it was supposed to be played, and there was a tonne of laughter at the table most of the time.

Similar to what you used to experience with Phil and the Thursday Night Group.

Shemek

I'm really glad for you:)!

And it was obviously a very good game for gamers worldwide, since yesterday I played in a very good session, too. Details at the end of this post:p!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;897886
This. This is what I live for, in my gaming, and why I have all this crap in the basement (and out in the shed). This is when the magic works, and everybody slips the bonds of their present reality and we step forth on the path of wonder.

Laughter at the table. Does this ruin immersion? No, in my aged opinion; it tell me that we're having fun.

I've been invited out to a game with the original Blackmoor players, and I'm debating going. It's all the early 1970s guys, and I don't really know many of them. And, I don't want 'serious art form'; I want to laugh a lot, and enjoy my time with my friends. We'll see, I guess...

I suspect you'll either have the time of your life, or be disappointed. What I don't see is a middle option...
Try it, I'd say. If you don't get the good option, politely decline the next session.

Quote from: AsenRG;897436

This Saturday we're going on a session with a new GM. He has played a grand total of two session before, with me and has never GMed. During those, the guy also gave a run for our money to me (17 years of playing and Refereeing - Gronan, Chirine and Bren, please remember that I'm among the first generation/start of the second generation of Bulgarian players who actually had access to RPG books:)), another player who has started maybe a couple years after me, and totally eclipsed the guy who "only" had about 10 years of experience with RPGs.
I've asked him how he thinks people should run games. In response, he told me more or less that that they should be Referees, and present clues and opportunities if the players seem to wonder what to do next...

And that was a great session!
Yes, it was the Referee's 3rd session, ever. There was also a guy that we didn't know, but who was new to RPGs - some of my sister's Facebook friends, I think - and by the end of the night, he was hooked, too
I'd call that a success.
Gronan and Chirine would have definitely recognised the "system" being used. We had five stats, though we just got to spread 100 points among them. Then it was mostly "roll this die as indicated by the GM, add the stat or stats the GM tells you to, tell me the result" (sometimes the die was d20, sometimes d100, sometimes we added one stat, sometimes 2 stats).
Everything depended on player skill, because your description determines what happens. That applies in combat as well.

You'd all recognize the set-up, too. We started as villagers who decided to go to the big city, and try to join a guild or temple, or something...
The only guy in the group stronger than my character? I saved his ass, literally, after he brawled with some recidivist when we spent a night in prison. He lost, or course. I said I'll pull him aside and make sure nobody touches him, but not challenge anyone (despite playing a rather large guy, too).
Now I'm training for a temple mystic, my wife is training to be an assassin, the new guy is training for a marine, and my sister is training for a foreign trader. Well, she'll be sure to start at lower level, as we all do.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 15, 2016, 02:06:04 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;897916
Do it Chirine, what have you got to lose? If it's not fun then you can always bugger off at any time. Besides, this could be the beginning of a regular game with a group of like-minded individuals. Will the Glorious General be attending? Anyway, I'd go if presented with a similar opportunity.
(Clink - the sound of two Qirgals being dropped on the table.:) )

Shemek.


Good advice. I'm not being invited to play; it's another 'Chirine the Performing Monkey' dances for the crowd gig. Since word got out that I have this huge collection of artifacts and documents, I've had a steady stream of guests and visitors who want me to put on a show for them to use in their projects. I had a particularly nasty one back right before this past Gary Con, and I'm not big on repeating the experience. I also don't like just dropping in on somebody's house that I don't know; I don't take 'cold calls', and I don't expect that others will. We'll see, I guess.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 15, 2016, 02:08:06 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;897955
You know, memory is funny.  I remember doing my portrayal of Miles Gloriosus, but I DON'T remember what I did or why.  Usually some event happens that triggers the explanation.

And, honestly, despite what some would say, experience has taught me that MOST people think I have good comedic skills (there's always one...).  So, when I try to be funny, I AM funny.  I also have a quite good sense of comedic timing.

What makes a character like Miles Gloriosus funny is the disconnect between reality; even as the situation goes further and further into the soup, he is more and more convinced that he is charming the women, awing the men, routing the foe, and frightening the sheep.  And the greater the disconnect between his words and actions and the actual situation, the funnier it is.

Dang, I wish I could remember the details!  Fortunately I'm sure Chirine took notes and we'll see it in his book.

Well, it was really funny; the entry into Khirgar was right out of the movie. It was brilliant role-playing, and wonderful to have even a small part in. Yeah, it's all in the book... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 15, 2016, 02:11:15 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;897959
I suspect you'll either have the time of your life, or be disappointed. What I don't see is a middle option...
Try it, I'd say. If you don't get the good option, politely decline the next session.

Good points, and a great game session! Wonderful!!!

As I mentioned, I'm not being invited to game, nor is this a regular game group. This is a one-off, and all I'm being invited for is to be a 'props guy'. I have an invitation to something else, that evening, and I'd rather be going to that, frankly...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 15, 2016, 04:03:19 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;897963
Good points, and a great game session! Wonderful!!!

As I mentioned, I'm not being invited to game, nor is this a regular game group. This is a one-off, and all I'm being invited for is to be a 'props guy'. I have an invitation to something else, that evening, and I'd rather be going to that, frankly...

Well, I am another one that thought "invitation" means "invitation to play". "Invitation to be props guy" doesn't sound even 10% as appealing, to me, so let me reverse the previous advice, and say you seem to already have a better option...:)

And yeah, it was fun, especially after a misunderstanding with my teacher lead to my character having a test that would have killed me if I'd failed;). And especially the fact that I got there after the character failed a test involving pigs, or I'd have joined my sister in the marine merchants.
The fighting being based on description and skill checks determining what happens next was also a nice touch, and I'm sure many of you remember it.
Anyway, seems like that was a good day, and we both should write Actual Plays of those sessions:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Spinachcat on May 15, 2016, 06:26:51 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;897961
Since word got out that I have this huge collection of artifacts and documents, I've had a steady stream of guests and visitors who want me to put on a show for them to use in their projects.


Have you done YouTube videos showing off your artifacts / documents collection and discussing them? I am sure many hobbyists would be interested, and then you could point people at the videos instead of being asked to perform.

I saw bits of your minis events online. Your temples look good. My buddy did a set up like yours for his Warhammer Lizardmen and its a fun difference from the usual faux-Europe terrain.  

Chirine the Performing Monkey isn't the worst tag line :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 15, 2016, 08:06:33 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;897961
Good advice. I'm not being invited to play; it's another 'Chirine the Performing Monkey' dances for the crowd gig. Since word got out that I have this huge collection of artifacts and documents, I've had a steady stream of guests and visitors who want me to put on a show for them to use in their projects. I had a particularly nasty one back right before this past Gary Con, and I'm not big on repeating the experience. I also don't like just dropping in on somebody's house that I don't know; I don't take 'cold calls', and I don't expect that others will. We'll see, I guess.


Ah, ok, I see now. I, like Asen, misconstrued what was meant by "invited out". Well, to go to a game because they only want 'Chirine the Performing Monkey' is bullshit IMO. I also would walk away from something like that. No thank you! In fact, what I would do in your situation is bring only myself, a pad of paper, some pencils, some dice, and see what happens. You'll certainly know if you're wanted, or if they really only wanted the  smoke and mirrors and Chirine. If the former happens you may have a new group to game with, if the latter happens well, lesson learnt. As my nephew used to say when he was a little kid: "See ya, wouldn't wanna be ya."
I'm not surprised that you're hesitant. Just from what little you have relayed on this this thread regarding these types of people it's a miracle that you don't had a vicious hound on standby for just such contingencies. Maybe a vicious Zrne'e would be better.  

Chirine: "Unleash the hounds forthwith!":p

I get what you mean by just dropping in on someone you don't know. I'm the same way, even with friends I've known for most of my life. I would never think of going to someone's place without calling first and letting them know.  Probably has to do with how we were raised.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 15, 2016, 08:13:52 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;897963
Good points, and a great game session! Wonderful!!!

As I mentioned, I'm not being invited to game, nor is this a regular game group. This is a one-off, and all I'm being invited for is to be a 'props guy'. I have an invitation to something else, that evening, and I'd rather be going to that, frankly...


Saw this after I posted the previous message. In light of this ignore what I wrote earlier, and stick with your gut instinct. I also would probably prefer to go to the other thing instead, especially if I were being invited only to serve as the "help". Again, just my 2 bits.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 15, 2016, 08:26:20 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;897959


I'm really glad for you:)!

Thank you. It really was great. I find myself eagerly looking forward to future gaming sessions. Let's hope the group's creative energy keeps flowing.

And it was obviously a very good game for gamers worldwide, since yesterday I played in a very good session, too. Details at the end of this post:p!

Maybe there's something in the air? Are May 13 or May 14 auspicious days on the  Tsolyani Calendar?  

And that was a great session!
Yes, it was the Referee's 3rd session, ever. There was also a guy that we didn't know, but who was new to RPGs - some of my sister's Facebook friends, I think - and by the end of the night, he was hooked, too
I'd call that a success.
Gronan and Chirine would have definitely recognised the "system" being used. We had five stats, though we just got to spread 100 points among them. Then it was mostly "roll this die as indicated by the GM, add the stat or stats the GM tells you to, tell me the result" (sometimes the die was d20, sometimes d100, sometimes we added one stat, sometimes 2 stats).
Everything depended on player skill, because your description determines what happens. That applies in combat as well.

You'd all recognize the set-up, too. We started as villagers who decided to go to the big city, and try to join a guild or temple, or something...
The only guy in the group stronger than my character? I saved his ass, literally, after he brawled with some recidivist when we spent a night in prison. He lost, or course. I said I'll pull him aside and make sure nobody touches him, but not challenge anyone (despite playing a rather large guy, too).
Now I'm training for a temple mystic, my wife is training to be an assassin, the new guy is training for a marine, and my sister is training for a foreign trader. Well, she'll be sure to start at lower level, as we all do.

This sounds like the beginning of some great adventures. Can't wait to hear more!



Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 15, 2016, 10:37:34 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;897968
Well, I am another one that thought "invitation" means "invitation to play". "Invitation to be props guy" doesn't sound even 10% as appealing, to me, so let me reverse the previous advice, and say you seem to already have a better option...:)

And yeah, it was fun, especially after a misunderstanding with my teacher lead to my character having a test that would have killed me if I'd failed;). And especially the fact that I got there after the character failed a test involving pigs, or I'd have joined my sister in the marine merchants.
The fighting being based on description and skill checks determining what happens next was also a nice touch, and I'm sure many of you remember it.
Anyway, seems like that was a good day, and we both should write Actual Plays of those sessions:D!


I'm sorry about the confusion; I should have been more clear. The people doing the game session have no idea that I'm supposed to show up, and most (if not all) have no idea who I am. I'm being booked by an 'outside third party' to bring one of Dave's original plastic toy monsters that he used in the original Blackmoor games to show the group. It got mixed in with my miniatures when AGI folded, but I was able to get the rust monster and the pterodactyl back to Dave about a year before he passed away. I have no idea what happened to them after that. Other then the show and tell, I have no part in the thing.

Very good game, from the sound of it! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 15, 2016, 10:44:40 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;897989
Have you done YouTube videos showing off your artifacts / documents collection and discussing them? I am sure many hobbyists would be interested, and then you could point people at the videos instead of being asked to perform.

I saw bits of your minis events online. Your temples look good. My buddy did a set up like yours for his Warhammer Lizardmen and its a fun difference from the usual faux-Europe terrain.  

Chirine the Performing Monkey isn't the worst tag line :)


I have, but I didn't know if there would be any interest. I'm not sure that my play style, which is admittedly heavy on miniatures and props to hand players, is at all of interest to people; I've gotten enough negative comments over the years that I kinda want to keep a lower profile. The performances are all about the enhancement of the various peoples' prestige, I've found, and are very little about the actual collections or myself. It's all about 'enhancing the brand identity', and I am a marketing ploy.

Thank you! I try; this is all easily available or makable stuff, and all I do is think a little outside the box to do the games.

Could be, unless you're the one spending the money and vacation time (and the legal bills) to serve the people who are entitled to my time and house. I lost two days of overtime, worth over three hundred bucks, to a guy who insisted that he could only bring his friends over for a tour on a very specific day. It gets old.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 15, 2016, 10:48:31 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;898008
Saw this after I posted the previous message. In light of this ignore what I wrote earlier, and stick with your gut instinct. I also would probably prefer to go to the other thing instead, especially if I were being invited only to serve as the "help". Again, just my 2 bits.

Shemek.


Yep. And again, sorry about the confusion; this is one of those deals where I can't be too specific, in order to protect someone's business interests. My other option is seeing some very old friends, and playing in a guest star role as the bandit chieftain they are trying to arrest. The GM in the campaign had a great laugh telling the players - all very old friend of mine - who he'd gotten to play the bandits, and pandemonium broke out.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 15, 2016, 11:59:30 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;897962
Well, it was really funny; the entry into Khirgar was right out of the movie. It was brilliant role-playing, and wonderful to have even a small part in. Yeah, it's all in the book... :)

"STAND ASIDE, EVERYONE, I TAKE LARGE STEPS!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN-ttCBHyx8
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 16, 2016, 12:25:16 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898049
"STAND ASIDE, EVERYONE, I TAKE LARGE STEPS!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN-ttCBHyx8

"I, Miles Gloriosus,
I, slaughterer of thousands,
I, oppressor of the meek,
Subduer of the weak,
Degrader of the Greek,
Destroyer of the Turk,
Must hurry back to work." :p

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 16, 2016, 04:17:07 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898049
"STAND ASIDE, EVERYONE, I TAKE LARGE STEPS!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN-ttCBHyx8

The look on Phil's face when you did this line - in the right voice and all! - was truly priceless, and set the tone for the next decade plus of our games. This was back long before VHS or DVD, and it took Phil simply ages to finally see the movie. He said he laughed his head off, and I noticed bits like "I am saying the sooth!" creeping in over time... :)

It was wonderful... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 16, 2016, 04:19:00 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;898056
"I, Miles Gloriosus,
I, slaughterer of thousands,
I, oppressor of the meek,
Subduer of the weak,
Degrader of the Greek,
Destroyer of the Turk,
Must hurry back to work." :p

Shemek.

Yes! Yes! :) Blue tunics and all!!! :)

I played the officer waving to the adoring crowds, he said modestly... :)

Phil's parades where never quite the same, after this... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 16, 2016, 02:09:20 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;898011
Thank you. It really was great. I find myself eagerly looking forward to future gaming sessions. Let's hope the group's creative energy keeps flowing.
We all hope for the same, don't we:)?

Quote
Maybe there's something in the air? Are May 13 or May 14 auspicious days on the Tsolyani Calendar?
Good question!
Chirine, can we work out which days correspond to May 13-14?

Quote
This sounds like the beginning of some great adventures. Can't wait to hear more!
I really am going to write an actual play;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;898035
I'm sorry about the confusion; I should have been more clear. The people doing the game session have no idea that I'm supposed to show up, and most (if not all) have no idea who I am. I'm being booked by an 'outside third party' to bring one of Dave's original plastic toy monsters that he used in the original Blackmoor games to show the group. It got mixed in with my miniatures when AGI folded, but I was able to get the rust monster and the pterodactyl back to Dave about a year before he passed away. I have no idea what happened to them after that. Other then the show and tell, I have no part in the thing.

Very good game, from the sound of it! :)
OK, the most straightforward option is to cut them off.
The other option is to ask the guy to speak with the GM, and ask the GM whether they're looking for a player with some experience - only 40 years or so...:D
Your call which one to use. The most straightforward option might well be better!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;898036
I have, but I didn't know if there would be any interest. I'm not sure that my play style, which is admittedly heavy on miniatures and props to hand players, is at all of interest to people; I've gotten enough negative comments over the years that I kinda want to keep a lower profile.
We have a proverb about negative comments in my country. It translates roughly as "dogs might be barking, yet the caravan is still going its way".

Quote
The performances are all about the enhancement of the various peoples' prestige, I've found, and are very little about the actual collections or myself. It's all about 'enhancing the brand identity', and I am a marketing ploy.
Unless that people that get prestige is you... just cut them off.

Quote
Thank you! I try; this is all easily available or makable stuff, and all I do is think a little outside the box to do the games.
Yeah, right, nothing more;).

Quote
Could be, unless you're the one spending the money and vacation time (and the legal bills) to serve the people who are entitled to my time and house. I lost two days of overtime, worth over three hundred bucks, to a guy who insisted that he could only bring his friends over for a tour on a very specific day. It gets old.
Well, if he was bringing friends, they surely could have gathered $300 between them, right?
I'm not sure you should make paid tours...but it might be worth considering;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 16, 2016, 11:12:41 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898081
The look on Phil's face when you did this line - in the right voice and all! - was truly priceless, and set the tone for the next decade plus of our games. This was back long before VHS or DVD, and it took Phil simply ages to finally see the movie. He said he laughed his head off, and I noticed bits like "I am saying the sooth!" creeping in over time... :)

It was wonderful... :)

And with his knowledge of the classics I'm sure he recognized the old Roman era farces that they threw into a large pot and stirred, which would tickle him even more.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on May 17, 2016, 01:39:53 PM
Do/did you "punish" your player's characters when the player didn't conform to your vision of the setting, or do/did you warp the world to accommodate the player's vision.

By "punish" I mean to have the world "push back" when their character didn't do what would be expected by the setting.

Considering that when EPT was first released there were few if any examples, how much "euro" is acceptable in a game played as if it was The 1st Time?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 17, 2016, 02:30:21 PM
From AsenRG:
Good question!
Chirine, can we work out which days correspond to May 13-14?


I'll look it up, and crunch the numbers. I'll be bask as fast as I an; our Internet provider is having issues.

OK, the most straightforward option is to cut them off.
The other option is to ask the guy to speak with the GM, and ask the GM whether they're looking for a player with some experience - only 40 years or so...:D
Your call which one to use. The most straightforward option might well be better!


Understood. This is not a regular game group, though; this is a one shot, and not likely to repeat.

We have a proverb about negative comments in my country. It translates roughly as "dogs might be barking, yet the caravan is still going its way".

I like that - and I can guess what it stems from, too... :)

Unless that people that get prestige is you... just cut them off.

Which is what I've been doing. A lot of thirty-year friendships ended this past spring, and I expect we'll see a lot fewer people in the coming decades. But, on the other hand, I also expect that the people we do see, will be a lot better people...

Well, if he was bringing friends, they surely could have gathered $300 between them, right?
I'm not sure you should make paid tours...but it might be worth considering;).


The guy who scheduled me for his events on the two working days simply didn't care. He's so wrapped up in the wonderfulness of being him that any 'external' concerns simply don't register. This is the guy who left his guests with me, as he had his own appointments to keep, which I thought was kind of rude to both myself and to his friends. In both cases, I would up entertaining both sets of his guests for another couple of hours, each time. And I'd warned him about all this the first time, and he went and did it again. The only reason why I've put up with this kind of thing over the years is from a desire to promote Tekumel, and encourage people to discover Phil's amazing creation.

However, as a lot of these guests to my home have been part of one faction or another - people convinced that there's millions to be made in the game hobby - they've been at pains to inform me just why I am not suitable to be part of or represent 'their' Tekumel. Bad hair, unsuitable shelving, being a straight white male, all sorts of very important business concerns like that; I am not 'metrosexual' enough for them. However, if I would only give them my collections and work, however...

So, while I don't charge for entry, I do toss the ball back in any potential tour organizers' court by letting them organize their own package tours. And, since gamers usually can;t organize their way out of a wet paper bag, the problem solves itself. Unless I get a call or e-mail from this weekend's booking, I'm going to proceed with my original plans.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 17, 2016, 02:40:57 PM
From Greentongue:
Do/did you "punish" your player's characters when the player didn't conform to your vision of the setting, or do/did you warp the world to accommodate the player's vision.

No, to both. Tekumel is Tekumel, at least the way I learned it from Phil, and I don't change or modify it. As for players 'not conforming', I have yet to see that in any of my games over the decades. It may be that people who play with me are coming for that 'authentic Tekumel experience', but while I've seen some pretty eccentric stuff, it's all been well 'within the lines' of what Phil did in his campaign.

By "punish" I mean to have the world "push back" when their character didn't do what would be expected by the setting.

No. Not ever. The world works the way that the world works - at least, how Phil thought that it works - and as I do the same 'free Kriegspiel' / 'open sandbox' style of play that he did the world simply goes on running; I continue the meta-campaign, no matter what the players do, and they serve in the same roles that we did - odd eccentrics who provide humor and local color to the rest of the campaign.

I do have conversations with players in which we talk about how the world works - like the conversations we have in this thread - but once the game sessions starts, I am completely neutral and let the players do their thing. I have yet to have a situation where players insist on doing something utterly 'out of bounds.'

Considering that when EPT was first released there were few if any examples, how much "euro" is acceptable in a game played as if it was The 1st Time?

I'm sorry, I don't understand the use of the word 'euro' in this context. Can you explain it, please? Thanks! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 17, 2016, 02:43:37 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898237
And with his knowledge of the classics I'm sure he recognized the old Roman era farces that they threw into a large pot and stirred, which would tickle him even more.


Oh, very much so!!! I had a good laugh, many years later, when I got a book on Ancient Egyptian folk tales; I recognized more then a few of the stories I'd heard from various peasants and villagers, over the years.

That was one of the great bits about gaming with Phil. He was simply so educated, you learned simply by sitting at the table and listening.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 17, 2016, 03:06:48 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898049
"STAND ASIDE, EVERYONE, I TAKE LARGE STEPS!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN-ttCBHyx8
Man that was beautiful. I'm going to have to re-watch that the next time I think the PCs are likely to run into an important NPC with the Arrogant and/or Braggart flaws. And since this is swashbuckling historical-fictional 1624 France that's likely to be at least every other session. :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 17, 2016, 03:16:17 PM
Quote from: Bren;898336
Man that was beautiful. I'm going to have to re-watch that the next time I think the PCs are likely to run into an important NPC with the Arrogant and/or Braggart flaws. And since this is swashbuckling historical-fictional 1624 France that's likely to be at least every other session. :D

Wonderful! This film was part of our shared world-view, back in those far-off days, and we'd all seen it. Ditto for "Ben Hur"; we all knew what ancient sea combat looked like. Or how we all knew how underworld traps worked from seeing "Land of the Pharaohs". Phil had seen all of these 'sword and sandal epics', and so we had a solid base of information to work from. I'd get them from Netflicks, and settle in with a big bag of popcorn... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 17, 2016, 04:14:35 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898338
Wonderful! This film was part of our shared world-view, back in those far-off days, and we'd all seen it. Ditto for "Ben Hur"; we all knew what ancient sea combat looked like. Or how we all knew how underworld traps worked from seeing "Land of the Pharaohs". Phil had seen all of these 'sword and sandal epics', and so we had a solid base of information to work from. I'd get them from Netflicks, and settle in with a big bag of popcorn... :)
I remember watching Ben Hur on network TV. My parents let me stay up late on a school night to watch it. Though I had to first go to bed until my little brother went to sleep. Fortunately we were in the Eastern time zone so programming didn't start until 8PM, this was the 1960s so little kids went to be early, and my brother was a good sleeper.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 17, 2016, 04:26:22 PM
Hi Chrine,

The question of intersecting parties came up on another thread. I know you guys experienced some of that in Tekumel, Blackmoor, etc.

Quote from: Bren;898352
This was discussed on the Chrine thread maybe 1000 posts ago. As I understand it, they played weekly and a session covered 1 week of game time, so real time to game time was effectively 1-to-1. I don't know for sure how they synched up different parties, but the idea was if you played on Tuesday and looted a tomb and the next group played after Tuesday they'd find a looted tomb. So I assume that the week was counted from play date through play date + six days. And at least for Tekumel there was some correlation between real world dates and game dates.

I suppose things could still become problematic if say your group played on Tuesday. In game they walked 3 days to the Tomb of Undying Death and looted it the next day, so on Game Day 4. And on Wednesday (equal to your Game Day 2) another play group teleported or flew to the Tomb of Undying so they could loot it on your Game Day 3. What would they see? How would that get resolved?

I'll toss the question over to Chirine and see what he says.
How did Phil, Dave, Gary, you, Gronan, et al handle such temporal issues?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 17, 2016, 06:01:27 PM
Quote from: Bren;898348
I remember watching Ben Hur on network TV. My parents let me stay up late on a school night to watch it. Though I had to first go to bed until my little brother went to sleep. Fortunately we were in the Eastern time zone so programming didn't start until 8PM, this was the 1960s so little kids went to be early, and my brother was a good sleeper.


Me too, and  The Ten Commandments, and Spartacus. Loved all of them, and if I see that they're on TV I still watch them, eventhough I've seen them a dozen times. These movies, and Wizard of Oz, were also the only ones I could stay up late for when I was a kid. Brings back a tonne of memories. Yul Brenner's "Pharaoh" is the quintessential Tsolyani nobleman for me.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 17, 2016, 06:09:45 PM
Quote from: Bren;898354
Hi Chrine,

The question of intersecting parties came up on another thread. I know you guys experienced some of that in Tekumel, Blackmoor, etc.

How did Phil, Dave, Gary, you, Gronan, et al handle such temporal issues?

I'd also love to know how this was handled. In the past I've always stayed  away from these situations, as DM.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on May 17, 2016, 06:49:32 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898331
Considering that when EPT was first released there were few if any examples, how much "euro" is acceptable in a game played as if it was The 1st Time?

I'm sorry, I don't understand the use of the word 'euro' in this context. Can you explain it, please? Thanks! :)

Acting like it is a generic fantasy European setting, with the usual Kings and Knights, just without Elves and Dwarves.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 17, 2016, 07:34:24 PM
Quote from: Bren;898348
I remember watching Ben Hur on network TV. My parents let me stay up late on a school night to watch it. Though I had to first go to bed until my little brother went to sleep. Fortunately we were in the Eastern time zone so programming didn't start until 8PM, this was the 1960s so little kids went to be early, and my brother was a good sleeper.


Me, too! "Ten Commandments", same thing. Remember when "Johnny Quest" was on ABC in prime time at 9:00 pm Thursdays, as a one-hour episode right after the one-hour "Flintstones". My word, did I have to use all my powers of charm and tact  to be allowed to stay up to watch it!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 17, 2016, 07:39:18 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898392
Me, too! "Ten Commandments", same thing. Remember when "Johnny Quest" was on ABC in prime time at 9:00 pm Thursdays, as a one-hour episode right after the one-hour "Flintstones". My word, did I have to use all my powers of charm and tact  to be allowed to stay up to watch it!!!
I don't remember Jonny Quest from primetime, just from Saturday mornings. I do wish we had seen the adventures that showed up in the opening credits. They were really exciting.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 17, 2016, 07:53:35 PM
Quote from: Bren;898354
Hi Chrine,

The question of intersecting parties came up on another thread. I know you guys experienced some of that in Tekumel, Blackmoor, etc.

How did Phil, Dave, Gary, you, Gronan, et al handle such temporal issues?

In a word, record-keeping. We all treated our campaigns as we did our wargaming campaigns - which makes some of the comments on the thread about what RPGs can learn from wargames seem very odd indeed to me. We usually did calendars, and we'd keep track of how the various parties moved around in order to keep everything straight. It was often very, very difficult to get the opposing forces into the same point in space-time in order to have battles - and we're talking big armies with supply trains, here. What usually happened was that one side would get to the proposed battlefield too late, and wind up mugging the other side's supply column and trains. Which is why it seems that a lot of battles in the historical record feel like they were fought by appointment; since both sides usually wanted to force a decision, you see a lot of feeling your way into contact so you can fight the battle. See also Tony Bath's book on setting up a wargames campaign; Phil used it verbatum, and it bled over into a great many wargame campaigns.

This practice, in turn, bled over into the early RPG campaigns as Dave, Gary and Phil had all gotten their start in classic wargame campaigns. For example, Phil synched what happened in each game session by day, so that if the Monday group did something that happened on a Tuesday, it happened on our Tuesday as well. It was very, very rare to get both groups in the same city at the same time, let alone getting them into the same location at the same point in time. If this did happen, the 'custom of the house' was to have everybody show up on a Friday night or a Saturday afternoon and have one big combined game session.

If we had shown up on Day 3 (in your example of the two parties looting the same tomb), we would have looted the tomb, and gotten away. The other group would have arrived on Day 4, and looted the tomb all over again. And, this being Tekumel the way Phil played it, they then would have gone looking for the party of clerics, guards, and bearers who had just gotten through restocking and resealing the tomb  to see what other goodies might be had. We met up with all sorts of parties like this over time, as Phil ran his world as a living entity - he based this on the misadventures of the cadre of priests and guards who looked after the Valley of the Kings, who left us all sorts of rather plaintive records of how many times they had had to deal with parties of tomb-robbers. (Tutankhamun got robbed twice, for example.) Remember that Phil had this meta-game going on all the time in the background, and that the NPCs were just as active as we were.

If I may offer a comment / historical perspective, the question on both of the other threads seems to be that the one about "intersecting parties" is answered by the other one on "what can RPGs' learn"; a lot of the issues discussed in that thread were solved in practice by wargamers quite a while back, but that historical knowledge / experience of game play /game running seems to have gotten lost over time. (I suppose I shouldn't be surprised; stopped in at the FLGS near my house, and nobody there - who were playing D&D - knew who Dave Arneson or Gary Gygax were.) It's why I was a little startled by the comment Pundit made in the "what can RPGs learn thread" that there is nothing that RPGs can learn from wargames; different play styles and different history I would venture to guess...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 17, 2016, 08:03:41 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;898373
Me too, and  The Ten Commandments, and Spartacus. Loved all of them, and if I see that they're on TV I still watch them, eventhough I've seen them a dozen times. These movies, and Wizard of Oz, were also the only ones I could stay up late for when I was a kid. Brings back a tonne of memories. Yul Brenner's "Pharaoh" is the quintessential Tsolyani nobleman for me.

Shemek.


Oh, yes, very true. The legions advancing in "Spartacus" were how we all thought our legions should work in Tekumel, and we actually did it in several battles we fought. When the guard changes in the entry hall of the palace, it's the Winkies at the castle all over again. "Wizard of Oz" is, in my biased opinion, a movie that all RPG players should watch as an example of how a party works when on an adventure.

And Yul Brenner as Rameses is perfect - every Vriddi I've ever met is like him! I even have the figure! Wargods of Aegyptus WGE-114, "Priest of Horus". -140, the Aten Priest, is good as well...

The first time I dictated something to a scribe, and he responded "So it is written, so it shall be!" I nearly fell out of my chair... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 17, 2016, 08:19:20 PM
Quote from: Bren;898394
I don't remember Jonny Quest from primetime, just from Saturday mornings. I do wish we had seen the adventures that showed up in the opening credits. They were really exciting.

Some of them were from the never-shown pilot, but a lot of them were in the one-hour episodes. The half-hour Saturday episodes were just butchered!!! :(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 17, 2016, 08:20:06 PM
Quote from: Bren;898394
I don't remember Jonny Quest from primetime, just from Saturday mornings. I do wish we had seen the adventures that showed up in the opening credits. They were really exciting.


Some of them were from the never-shown pilot, but a lot of them were in the one-hour episodes. The half-hour Saturday episodes were just butchered!!! :(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 17, 2016, 08:27:28 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;898377
Acting like it is a generic fantasy European setting, with the usual Kings and Knights, just without Elves and Dwarves.
=

Oh; gotcha. I was thinking of the 'euro games' genre, which was not what you meant; I've never heard this use of the word, but it does make sense.

I never saw or heard of it, back in the day; everybody seemed to go with a modified feudal Japan style, or a Meso-American style. Very, very rarely, an Ancient Egyptian style. No horses on Tekumel, so I think that these made the most sense to people. Although we do have elf and dwarf types - Pe Choi and Tinaliya. I know people who played them that way, along with Ahoggya as orc-equivalents and Shen as dragon-born or lizard-men. Hlutrgu as sahagun, of course.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 17, 2016, 08:57:45 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;898317
Do/did you "punish" your player's characters when the player didn't conform to your vision of the setting, or do/did you warp the world to accommodate the player's vision.

By "punish" I mean to have the world "push back" when their character didn't do what would be expected by the setting.

Considering that when EPT was first released there were few if any examples, how much "euro" is acceptable in a game played as if it was The 1st Time?
=


As Chirine said; the world is the world.  You are told in advance what to watch out for.  If you wander out of the foreigners' quarters and start spitting on well dressed people, you will be quickly impaled.  That's not "punishing" or "pushing back," that's "consistency."

I don't play with people who want to act like utter rampaging fuckmortons.

And I don't understand your third sentence at all.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 17, 2016, 08:58:13 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898406
Oh; gotcha. I was thinking of the 'euro games' genre, which was not what you meant; I've never heard this use of the word, but it does make sense.

 ...(snipped)Although we do have elf and dwarf types - Pe Choi and Tinaliya. I know people who played them that way, along with Ahoggya as orc-equivalents and Shen as dragon-born or lizard-men. Hlutrgu as sahagun, of course.


Until this post I really did not make the above connections, and I've been gaming on Tekumel for decades! Wow, you learn something new everyday. Amazing:eek:

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 17, 2016, 08:59:37 PM
Quote from: Bren;898354
Hi Chrine,

The question of intersecting parties came up on another thread. I know you guys experienced some of that in Tekumel, Blackmoor, etc.

How did Phil, Dave, Gary, you, Gronan, et al handle such temporal issues?


Remember all the heckling Gary has taken over his "IT IS VITAL TO KEEP STRICT TRACK OF TIME"?  This is why he made that assertion.

And if you really DID both get there at the same time, I'd get both groups together and make THEM work it out.  I'm just the referee.  :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 17, 2016, 09:05:00 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898397
If I may offer a comment / historical perspective, the question on both of the other threads seems to be that the one about "intersecting parties" is answered by the other one on "what can RPGs' learn"; a lot of the issues discussed in that thread were solved in practice by wargamers quite a while back, but that historical knowledge / experience of game play /game running seems to have gotten lost over time. (I suppose I shouldn't be surprised; stopped in at the FLGS near my house, and nobody there - who were playing D&D - knew who Dave Arneson or Gary Gygax were.) It's why I was a little startled by the comment Pundit made in the "what can RPGs learn thread" that there is nothing that RPGs can learn from wargames; different play styles and different history I would venture to guess...

As I've commented elsewhere, RPG groups are now "ONE BAND OF HEROES TRIED AND TRUE WELDED TOGETHER AT THE HIPS" rather than "A motley assortment of sellswords, treasure hunters, opportunists, minor nobility, and mad wizards who occasionally band together in an infinite variety of combinations to combine their strengths for a nut too tough to crack alone."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 17, 2016, 09:36:35 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898410
As Chirine said; the world is the world.  You are told in advance what to watch out for.  If you wander out of the foreigners' quarters and start spitting on well dressed people, you will be quickly impaled.  That's not "punishing" or "pushing back," that's "consistency."

I don't play with people who want to act like utter rampaging fuckmortons.

And I don't understand your third sentence at all.


This. I've always explained the world to players in advance, often long before they get to the actual game session. If they are going to me miserable, I am going to be miserable, and I don't like that.

I didn't get it either; see the succeeding messages...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 17, 2016, 09:38:56 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;898411
Until this post I really did not make the above connections, and I've been gaming on Tekumel for decades! Wow, you learn something new everyday. Amazing:eek:

Shemek


Really? I was first told this by one of the gamers at the Fifth Precinct along about 1977. Shows you how slowly information can travel - I need a signal pyre on the roof, or something... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 17, 2016, 09:41:38 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898412
Remember all the heckling Gary has taken over his "IT IS VITAL TO KEEP STRICT TRACK OF TIME"?  This is why he made that assertion.

And if you really DID both get there at the same time, I'd get both groups together and make THEM work it out.  I'm just the referee.  :D


This; ditto.

By the way, talked to some D&D players this afternoon at the FLGs near the house (I'm on vacation - two weeks off, hurrah!) and none of them knew who this Gygax fellow was. I've now been invited to the regular mid-week D&D meet-up to tell them who these old guys were...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 17, 2016, 09:51:19 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898413
As I've commented elsewhere, RPG groups are now "ONE BAND OF HEROES TRIED AND TRUE WELDED TOGETHER AT THE HIPS" rather than "A motley assortment of sellswords, treasure hunters, opportunists, minor nobility, and mad wizards who occasionally band together in an infinite variety of combinations to combine their strengths for a nut too tough to crack alone."

Well, yes. Even at the height of our time a a game group out at Phil's, we all were 'rugged individualists' with our own goals and agendas. What made us functional as a 'party' was that we all recognized this, and made sure that everybody got a little something all the time - I can think of more then a few occasions where we'd band together to make sure that one person carried out their particular mission and cooperated to make sure that they could make their goals. If we had differing objectives, we'd make sure that we would all 'succeed' and be able to show our bosses in the temples, legions, clans, or government what stout lads and lasses we all were and deserving of promotions and favors. We'd make sure to bring home the goods, and keep everybody happy.

Except Phil, of course, whose devious plots and dire perils were thwarted on a pretty regular basis by our thinking first and then bopping people over the head if they needed a thumping. It made him think a lot harder, and it made a better Tekumel as a result.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 17, 2016, 09:53:11 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898413
As I've commented elsewhere, RPG groups are now "ONE BAND OF HEROES TRIED AND TRUE WELDED TOGETHER AT THE HIPS" rather than "A motley assortment of sellswords, treasure hunters, opportunists, minor nobility, and mad wizards who occasionally band together in an infinite variety of combinations to combine their strengths for a nut too tough to crack alone."


Funny thing is that every group I have ever DM'd and played in has been of the latter persuasion. I only encountered the first kind of group once. Must be a generational thing.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 17, 2016, 09:57:06 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898419
Really? I was first told this by one of the gamers at the Fifth Precinct along about 1977. Shows you how slowly information can travel - I need a signal pyre on the roof, or something... :)


Must be a "forest for the trees" thing.:confused: Maybe some signal pyres along the Sakbe Road, or local interstate. What's the main one down there I35?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 17, 2016, 10:05:35 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898412
Remember all the heckling Gary has taken over his "IT IS VITAL TO KEEP STRICT TRACK OF TIME"?  This is why he made that assertion.
I limit my heckling to his fetish for pole-arms.

Kidding aside though, the problem is that unless you restrict time in the game world to real time i.e. if you play on Tuesday (game world and real world) you can't find out what happened on Wednesday in the game world until Wednesday in the real world which would make playing out wilderness travel, research, or training both excruciatingly tedious and a logistical nightmare. Even in my most fanatical gaming periods, I did not game every single day for hours at a time. Not quite.

Quote
And if you really DID both get there at the same time, I'd get both groups together and make THEM work it out.  I'm just the referee.  :D
That's great if you know ahead of time that two (or more) groups are likely to be in the same place at the same time. The problem is what to do when the referee doesn't know that until after one of the groups has acted. While written movement and orders and simultaneous turns works in war games, it would be hideously tedious to do that all the time in an RPG.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 17, 2016, 10:09:36 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898422
Well, yes. Even at the height of our time a a game group out at Phil's, we all were 'rugged individualists' with our own goals and agendas. What made us functional as a 'party' was that we all recognized this, and made sure that everybody got a little something all the time - I can think of more then a few occasions where we'd band together to make sure that one person carried out their particular mission and cooperated to make sure that they could make their goals. If we had differing objectives, we'd make sure that we would all 'succeed' and be able to show our bosses in the temples, legions, clans, or government what stout lads and lasses we all were and deserving of promotions and favors. We'd make sure to bring home the goods, and keep everybody happy.



This really sums up the type of play I am used to as well. As a DM this made for great sport as I was often able to play one off against the other. But at the end of the day the group would always band together to achieve a "universal goal" that would ultimately benefit all.  In the circumstances when a character potentially threatened the survival of the whole group they would be "eliminated" as one player was fond of saying. Kind of like what happened in the example I provided the other day.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Spinachcat on May 17, 2016, 10:37:42 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898036
I'm not sure that my play style, which is admittedly heavy on miniatures and props to hand players, is at all of interest to people; I've gotten enough negative comments over the years that I kinda want to keep a lower profile.


I'm gonna borrow Gronan's colorful term here. Please ignore the fuckmortons who put down your playstyle ESPECIALLY since lots and lots of RPGers are big fans of minis and props. Hell, the Savage Worlds RPG system is very popular because its specifically built to be friendly to gamers who love tables full of toys. The joke is that Savage Worlds Tekumel would probably get lots of attention and the fuckmortons be thrice damned.

I've played a ton of RPGs both "theater of the mind" and "table full of toys" and both are great fun in their own right. I would definitely love to learn more about Tekumel gameplay and the views on this thread tell me I'm not alone.

So I'm sure MANY gamers would be interested in your videos showing all your decades of props and Tekumel goodies.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 17, 2016, 11:01:09 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;898424
Must be a "forest for the trees" thing.:confused: Maybe some signal pyres along the Sakbe Road, or local interstate. What's the main one down there I35?

Shemek.

I think you're right. I keep having to remember that I know a whole lot more about the thing, and the history of the thing, then most other people. Which is why asking me questions is, in my mind, A Good Thing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 17, 2016, 11:03:03 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;898426
This really sums up the type of play I am used to as well. As a DM this made for great sport as I was often able to play one off against the other. But at the end of the day the group would always band together to achieve a "universal goal" that would ultimately benefit all.  In the circumstances when a character potentially threatened the survival of the whole group they would be "eliminated" as one player was fond of saying. Kind of like what happened in the example I provided the other day.

Shemek.

I'd agree with this. I've had a few people, over the years, who had 'issues', and we couldn't work them out out of game, we'd part ways. Better all round.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: rawma on May 17, 2016, 11:11:49 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898421
By the way, talked to some D&D players this afternoon at the FLGs near the house (I'm on vacation - two weeks off, hurrah!) and none of them knew who this Gygax fellow was. I've now been invited to the regular mid-week D&D meet-up to tell them who these old guys were...


I feel bad that you don't seem to get invited to gaming groups and meet-ups to actually play. Maybe you should make all these people who want museum curator lectures pre-order your book.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 17, 2016, 11:17:43 PM
Quote from: Bren;898425
I limit my heckling to his fetish for pole-arms.

Kidding aside though, the problem is that unless you restrict time in the game world to real time i.e. if you play on Tuesday (game world and real world) you can't find out what happened on Wednesday in the game world until Wednesday in the real world which would make playing out wilderness travel, research, or training both excruciatingly tedious and a logistical nightmare. Even in my most fanatical gaming periods, I did not game every single day for hours at a time. Not quite.

That's great if you know ahead of time that two (or more) groups are likely to be in the same place at the same time. The problem is what to do when the referee doesn't know that until after one of the groups has acted. While written movement and orders and simultaneous turns works in war games, it would be hideously tedious to do that all the time in an RPG.

Understood. Phil's campaign was a very long-term one, and he got to the point where he could pretty much predict what the two parties would get up to, and plan things accordingly. I've done the same, and stopped play and hit the 'pause' button until I could get everybody in the same room. Then the fun really starts, as the two (or more) groups interact - it becomes a Braunstein, in all reality... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 17, 2016, 11:20:17 PM
Quote from: Bren;898425
I limit my heckling to his fetish for pole-arms.

Kidding aside though, the problem is that unless you restrict time in the game world to real time i.e. if you play on Tuesday (game world and real world) you can't find out what happened on Wednesday in the game world until Wednesday in the real world which would make playing out wilderness travel, research, or training both excruciatingly tedious and a logistical nightmare. Even in my most fanatical gaming periods, I did not game every single day for hours at a time. Not quite.

That's great if you know ahead of time that two (or more) groups are likely to be in the same place at the same time. The problem is what to do when the referee doesn't know that until after one of the groups has acted. While written movement and orders and simultaneous turns works in war games, it would be hideously tedious to do that all the time in an RPG.


Understood. Phil's campaign was a very long-term one, and he got to the point where he could pretty much predict what the two parties would get up to, and plan things accordingly. I've done the same, and stopped play and hit the 'pause' button until I could get everybody in the same room. Then the fun really starts, as the two (or more) groups interact - it becomes a Braunstein, in all reality... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 17, 2016, 11:56:01 PM
Quote from: Bren;898425
I limit my heckling to his fetish for pole-arms.

Small children should not be allowed near copies of Stone's 'Glossary'.


Quote from: Bren;898425
Kidding aside though, the problem is that unless you restrict time in the game world to real time i.e. if you play on Tuesday (game world and real world) you can't find out what happened on Wednesday in the game world until Wednesday in the real world which would make playing out wilderness travel, research, or training both excruciatingly tedious and a logistical nightmare. Even in my most fanatical gaming periods, I did not game every single day for hours at a time. Not quite.

That's great if you know ahead of time that two (or more) groups are likely to be in the same place at the same time. The problem is what to do when the referee doesn't know that until after one of the groups has acted. While written movement and orders and simultaneous turns works in war games, it would be hideously tedious to do that all the time in an RPG.

Well, Phil is the only case I know of "real time equals game time."  Gary figured a dungeon crawl was a week; prep, resting, the adventure, recovery.  If we got beat up and went back to the surface and rested up and went back down, we burned two weeks that night.  If we did that and then travelled overland, we ate up more time.  Outdoor adventures were such that you could burn a month or more in a single night.

It wasn't very long before we were scattered all over the time line, and all over the world.  Since there was no single overarching plot, it worked a treat.  Most people didn't know what one another were doing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 17, 2016, 11:57:39 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898333
Oh, very much so!!! I had a good laugh, many years later, when I got a book on Ancient Egyptian folk tales; I recognized more then a few of the stories I'd heard from various peasants and villagers, over the years.

That was one of the great bits about gaming with Phil. He was simply so educated, you learned simply by sitting at the table and listening.


Chirine,

Here's one for you. I first read this story in university while taking an elective in Ancient Egyptian History. This story always reminds me of the scene in Man of Gold when Harsan had to flee from the Sarku troops into the sewers of  Purdimal with the tomb robber et.al. I'm not sure if Firu baYeker told this one. Enjoy.

The Tale of King Rhampsinitus

(A folk tale regarding the king who reigned in Egypt before Khufu was relayed by a priest to Herodotus, the Greek historian.)

The monarch was called Rhampsinitus. He built the western portion of the temple of Ptah. He also erected two statues — one to Summer, which faced the north and was worshipped, and the other to Winter, which faced the south but was never honoured.

The king possessed great wealth, and he caused to be constructed beside the palace a strong stone chamber in which he kept his riches. One of the builders, however, contrived to place a stone in such a manner that it could be removed from the outside.

It chanced that, after the king had deposited his treasure in the chamber, this builder was stricken with illness and knew his end was nigh. He had two sons, and he told them his secret regarding the stone, and gave them the measurements, so that they might locate it.

After the man died the sons went forth in the darkness of night, and when they found the stone they removed it. Then they entered the chamber, and carried away much treasure, and ere they departed they closed up the wall again.

The king marvelled greatly when he discovered that his riches had been plundered, for the seals of the door were unbroken, and he knew not whom to suspect. Again and again the robbers returned, and the treasure diminished greatly. At length the king caused traps to be laid in the chamber, for his guards, who kept watch at the entrances, were unable to prevent the mysterious robberies.

Soon after the brothers returned. They removed the stone, and one of them entered stealthily. He went towards the treasure, as was his custom, but was suddenly caught in a trap. In a moment he realized that escape was impossible, and he reflected that he would be put to death on the morrow, while his brother would be seized and similarly punished. So he said to himself: "I alone will die."

When he had thus resolved to save his brother, he called to him softly in the darkness, bidding him to enter cautiously. He made known his great misfortune, and said: "I cannot escape, nor dare you tarry long lest you be discovered, When they find me here I will be recognized, and they will seize you and put you to death. Cut off my head at once so that they may not know who I am, and thus save your own life."

With a sad heart, the brother did as he was desired and carried away the head. Ere he escaped in the darkness, he replaced the stone, and no man saw him.

When morning came the king was more astounded than ever to find a headless body entrapped in the treasure chamber, for the door had not been opened, and yet two men had entered and one had escaped. He commanded that the corpse should be hung on the palace wall and stationed guards at the place, bidding them to keep strict watch so that they might discover if anyone came to sorrow for the dead man. But no one came nigh.

Meanwhile the mother grieved in secret. Her heart was filled with anger because the body was exposed in such a manner, and she threatened to inform the king regarding all that had happened if her other son would not contrive to carry away the corpse. The young man attempted to dissuade her, but she only repeated her threat, and that firmly. He therefore made preparations to obtain possession of the corpse.

He hired several asses, and on their backs he put many skins of wine. In the evening he drove them towards the palace. When he drew near to the guards who kept watch over his brother's body, he removed the stoppers of some of the skins. The wine ran forth upon the highway, and he began to lament aloud and beat his head as if he were in sore distress. The soldiers ran towards the asses and seized them, and caught the wine in vessels, claiming it for themselves. At first the brother pretended to be angry and abused the men, but when they had pacified him, as they thought, he spoke to them pleasantly and began to make secure the stoppers of all the skins.

In a short time he was chatting with the guards, and pretended to be much amused when they bantered him over the accident. Then he invited them to drink, and they filled their flasks readily. So they began, and the young man poured out wine until they were all made very drunk.

When they fell asleep, the cunning fellow took down his brother's body, and laid it upon the back of one of the asses. Ere he went away he shaved the right cheeks of the soldiers. His mother welcomed him on his return in the darkness and was well pleased.

The king was very angry when he discovered how the robber had tricked the guards, but he was still determined to have him taken. He sent forth his daughter in disguise, and she waited for the criminal.

She spoke to several men, and at length she found him because he came to know that he was sought and desired to deal cunningly with her. So he addressed her, and she offered to be his bride if he would tell her the most artful thing and also the most wicked thing he had ever done.

He answered readily: "The most wicked thing I ever did was to cut off my brother's head when he was caught in a trap in the royal treasure chamber, and the most artful was to deceive the king's guards and carry away the body."

The princess tried to seize him, but he thrust forth his brother's arm, which he carried under his robe, and when she clutched it he made speedy escape.

Great was then the astonishment of the king at the cunning and daring of the robber. He caused a proclamation to be made, offering him a free pardon and a generous reward if he would appear at the palace before him.

The man went readily, and His Majesty was so delighted with his speeches and great ingenuity that he gave him his daughter in marriage.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 18, 2016, 12:05:16 AM
"Table Full O' Toys" and "Theater of the Mind" both work great.  If you've been paying attention to Chirine's commentary on logistics, there's a hint as to one reason I lean towards "Theater of the Mind."

It also depends on the situation.  Miniatures et al are great for illustrating things like exactly what the hell an Ahoggya is, or for the pomp and panoply of legions deployed for combat.  Otherworldly things I think work better with a "theater of the mind" approach; no miniature, painting, movie image, et al, has ever evoked to my mind the sheer terror of

"Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it...Its streaming mane kindled and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs....His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadows about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked."

Now THAT's a Balrog.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 18, 2016, 01:14:17 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;898429
I'm gonna borrow Gronan's colorful term here. Please ignore the fuckmortons who put down your playstyle ESPECIALLY since lots and lots of RPGers are big fans of minis and props. Hell, the Savage Worlds RPG system is very popular because its specifically built to be friendly to gamers who love tables full of toys. The joke is that Savage Worlds Tekumel would probably get lots of attention and the fuckmortons be thrice damned.

I've played a ton of RPGs both "theater of the mind" and "table full of toys" and both are great fun in their own right. I would definitely love to learn more about Tekumel gameplay and the views on this thread tell me I'm not alone.

So I'm sure MANY gamers would be interested in your videos showing all your decades of props and Tekumel goodies.


Thank you for the encouragement! It gets old, sometimes, when I mention what we did back in the day, and what I still do now.

Ran across a set of audio CDs of some of my game sessions from the middle 2000s, and the videotapes from last year's Gary Con. We'll see about uploading them, so you can see and hear the kind of things that I do. And we'll see about some new video, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 18, 2016, 01:19:13 AM
Quote from: rawma;898434
I feel bad that you don't seem to get invited to gaming groups and meet-ups to actually play. Maybe you should make all these people who want museum curator lectures pre-order your book.

Yeah, this gets old, too. I've found that I get two sorts of people; gamers who want to know what it was like 'back then', and who then have brain stalls over the "everything not forbidden by the rules is permitted" / "everything not permitted by the rules is forbidden" thing. Free Kriegspiel seems to confuse them, as while they really know the game mechanics, they have trouble with a gamer where the rules are 'invisible'. The other kind, sorry to say, are simply greedy - and I have to be careful and worry about 'loss prevention'...

I don't know where my gaming will be going in the future. We'll have to see.

Good idea - we'll think about this... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 18, 2016, 01:25:22 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898438
Small children should not be allowed near copies of Stone's 'Glossary'.

Well, Phil is the only case I know of "real time equals game time."  Gary figured a dungeon crawl was a week; prep, resting, the adventure, recovery.  If we got beat up and went back to the surface and rested up and went back down, we burned two weeks that night.  If we did that and then travelled overland, we ate up more time.  Outdoor adventures were such that you could burn a month or more in a single night.

It wasn't very long before we were scattered all over the time line, and all over the world.  Since there was no single overarching plot, it worked a treat.  Most people didn't know what one another were doing.

Very true - which is why I keep my copy handy in the game room... :)

Agreed. Phil's campaign style was different then Dave and Gary's, and I'd be willing to bet that is was because of his long-standing relationship with Tony Bath - he had sent Phil a manuscript copy of his book, for Phil's use and comments. I don't think that the Dynamic Duo were as 'tight' in their campaigns, from what I saw, and I'd suspect that their campaign style was a lot 'looser' then the Society of Ancients method.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 18, 2016, 01:27:48 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;898439
Chirine,

Here's one for you. I first read this story in university while taking an elective in Ancient Egyptian History. This story always reminds me of the scene in Man of Gold when Harsan had to flee from the Sarku troops into the sewers of  Purdimal with the tomb robber et.al. I'm not sure if Firu baYeker told this one. Enjoy.

The Tale of King Rhampsinitus

(A folk tale regarding the king who reigned in Egypt before Khufu was relayed by a priest to Herodotus, the Greek historian.)

The monarch was called Rhampsinitus. He built the western portion of the temple of Ptah. He also erected two statues — one to Summer, which faced the north and was worshipped, and the other to Winter, which faced the south but was never honoured.

The king possessed great wealth, and he caused to be constructed beside the palace a strong stone chamber in which he kept his riches. One of the builders, however, contrived to place a stone in such a manner that it could be removed from the outside.

It chanced that, after the king had deposited his treasure in the chamber, this builder was stricken with illness and knew his end was nigh. He had two sons, and he told them his secret regarding the stone, and gave them the measurements, so that they might locate it.

After the man died the sons went forth in the darkness of night, and when they found the stone they removed it. Then they entered the chamber, and carried away much treasure, and ere they departed they closed up the wall again.

The king marvelled greatly when he discovered that his riches had been plundered, for the seals of the door were unbroken, and he knew not whom to suspect. Again and again the robbers returned, and the treasure diminished greatly. At length the king caused traps to be laid in the chamber, for his guards, who kept watch at the entrances, were unable to prevent the mysterious robberies.

Soon after the brothers returned. They removed the stone, and one of them entered stealthily. He went towards the treasure, as was his custom, but was suddenly caught in a trap. In a moment he realized that escape was impossible, and he reflected that he would be put to death on the morrow, while his brother would be seized and similarly punished. So he said to himself: "I alone will die."

When he had thus resolved to save his brother, he called to him softly in the darkness, bidding him to enter cautiously. He made known his great misfortune, and said: "I cannot escape, nor dare you tarry long lest you be discovered, When they find me here I will be recognized, and they will seize you and put you to death. Cut off my head at once so that they may not know who I am, and thus save your own life."

With a sad heart, the brother did as he was desired and carried away the head. Ere he escaped in the darkness, he replaced the stone, and no man saw him.

When morning came the king was more astounded than ever to find a headless body entrapped in the treasure chamber, for the door had not been opened, and yet two men had entered and one had escaped. He commanded that the corpse should be hung on the palace wall and stationed guards at the place, bidding them to keep strict watch so that they might discover if anyone came to sorrow for the dead man. But no one came nigh.

Meanwhile the mother grieved in secret. Her heart was filled with anger because the body was exposed in such a manner, and she threatened to inform the king regarding all that had happened if her other son would not contrive to carry away the corpse. The young man attempted to dissuade her, but she only repeated her threat, and that firmly. He therefore made preparations to obtain possession of the corpse.

He hired several asses, and on their backs he put many skins of wine. In the evening he drove them towards the palace. When he drew near to the guards who kept watch over his brother's body, he removed the stoppers of some of the skins. The wine ran forth upon the highway, and he began to lament aloud and beat his head as if he were in sore distress. The soldiers ran towards the asses and seized them, and caught the wine in vessels, claiming it for themselves. At first the brother pretended to be angry and abused the men, but when they had pacified him, as they thought, he spoke to them pleasantly and began to make secure the stoppers of all the skins.

In a short time he was chatting with the guards, and pretended to be much amused when they bantered him over the accident. Then he invited them to drink, and they filled their flasks readily. So they began, and the young man poured out wine until they were all made very drunk.

When they fell asleep, the cunning fellow took down his brother's body, and laid it upon the back of one of the asses. Ere he went away he shaved the right cheeks of the soldiers. His mother welcomed him on his return in the darkness and was well pleased.

The king was very angry when he discovered how the robber had tricked the guards, but he was still determined to have him taken. He sent forth his daughter in disguise, and she waited for the criminal.

She spoke to several men, and at length she found him because he came to know that he was sought and desired to deal cunningly with her. So he addressed her, and she offered to be his bride if he would tell her the most artful thing and also the most wicked thing he had ever done.

He answered readily: "The most wicked thing I ever did was to cut off my brother's head when he was caught in a trap in the royal treasure chamber, and the most artful was to deceive the king's guards and carry away the body."

The princess tried to seize him, but he thrust forth his brother's arm, which he carried under his robe, and when she clutched it he made speedy escape.

Great was then the astonishment of the king at the cunning and daring of the robber. He caused a proclamation to be made, offering him a free pardon and a generous reward if he would appear at the palace before him.

The man went readily, and His Majesty was so delighted with his speeches and great ingenuity that he gave him his daughter in marriage.

Shemek

Yes, he did, and I have a copy in my little book of folk tales. Still bears repeating here, as I think a lot of folks might find it useful! Thank you!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 18, 2016, 01:28:28 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;898439
Chirine,

Here's one for you. I first read this story in university while taking an elective in Ancient Egyptian History. This story always reminds me of the scene in Man of Gold when Harsan had to flee from the Sarku troops into the sewers of  Purdimal with the tomb robber et.al. I'm not sure if Firu baYeker told this one. Enjoy.

The Tale of King Rhampsinitus

(A folk tale regarding the king who reigned in Egypt before Khufu was relayed by a priest to Herodotus, the Greek historian.)

The monarch was called Rhampsinitus. He built the western portion of the temple of Ptah. He also erected two statues — one to Summer, which faced the north and was worshipped, and the other to Winter, which faced the south but was never honoured.

The king possessed great wealth, and he caused to be constructed beside the palace a strong stone chamber in which he kept his riches. One of the builders, however, contrived to place a stone in such a manner that it could be removed from the outside.

It chanced that, after the king had deposited his treasure in the chamber, this builder was stricken with illness and knew his end was nigh. He had two sons, and he told them his secret regarding the stone, and gave them the measurements, so that they might locate it.

After the man died the sons went forth in the darkness of night, and when they found the stone they removed it. Then they entered the chamber, and carried away much treasure, and ere they departed they closed up the wall again.

The king marvelled greatly when he discovered that his riches had been plundered, for the seals of the door were unbroken, and he knew not whom to suspect. Again and again the robbers returned, and the treasure diminished greatly. At length the king caused traps to be laid in the chamber, for his guards, who kept watch at the entrances, were unable to prevent the mysterious robberies.

Soon after the brothers returned. They removed the stone, and one of them entered stealthily. He went towards the treasure, as was his custom, but was suddenly caught in a trap. In a moment he realized that escape was impossible, and he reflected that he would be put to death on the morrow, while his brother would be seized and similarly punished. So he said to himself: "I alone will die."

When he had thus resolved to save his brother, he called to him softly in the darkness, bidding him to enter cautiously. He made known his great misfortune, and said: "I cannot escape, nor dare you tarry long lest you be discovered, When they find me here I will be recognized, and they will seize you and put you to death. Cut off my head at once so that they may not know who I am, and thus save your own life."

With a sad heart, the brother did as he was desired and carried away the head. Ere he escaped in the darkness, he replaced the stone, and no man saw him.

When morning came the king was more astounded than ever to find a headless body entrapped in the treasure chamber, for the door had not been opened, and yet two men had entered and one had escaped. He commanded that the corpse should be hung on the palace wall and stationed guards at the place, bidding them to keep strict watch so that they might discover if anyone came to sorrow for the dead man. But no one came nigh.

Meanwhile the mother grieved in secret. Her heart was filled with anger because the body was exposed in such a manner, and she threatened to inform the king regarding all that had happened if her other son would not contrive to carry away the corpse. The young man attempted to dissuade her, but she only repeated her threat, and that firmly. He therefore made preparations to obtain possession of the corpse.

He hired several asses, and on their backs he put many skins of wine. In the evening he drove them towards the palace. When he drew near to the guards who kept watch over his brother's body, he removed the stoppers of some of the skins. The wine ran forth upon the highway, and he began to lament aloud and beat his head as if he were in sore distress. The soldiers ran towards the asses and seized them, and caught the wine in vessels, claiming it for themselves. At first the brother pretended to be angry and abused the men, but when they had pacified him, as they thought, he spoke to them pleasantly and began to make secure the stoppers of all the skins.

In a short time he was chatting with the guards, and pretended to be much amused when they bantered him over the accident. Then he invited them to drink, and they filled their flasks readily. So they began, and the young man poured out wine until they were all made very drunk.

When they fell asleep, the cunning fellow took down his brother's body, and laid it upon the back of one of the asses. Ere he went away he shaved the right cheeks of the soldiers. His mother welcomed him on his return in the darkness and was well pleased.

The king was very angry when he discovered how the robber had tricked the guards, but he was still determined to have him taken. He sent forth his daughter in disguise, and she waited for the criminal.

She spoke to several men, and at length she found him because he came to know that he was sought and desired to deal cunningly with her. So he addressed her, and she offered to be his bride if he would tell her the most artful thing and also the most wicked thing he had ever done.

He answered readily: "The most wicked thing I ever did was to cut off my brother's head when he was caught in a trap in the royal treasure chamber, and the most artful was to deceive the king's guards and carry away the body."

The princess tried to seize him, but he thrust forth his brother's arm, which he carried under his robe, and when she clutched it he made speedy escape.

Great was then the astonishment of the king at the cunning and daring of the robber. He caused a proclamation to be made, offering him a free pardon and a generous reward if he would appear at the palace before him.

The man went readily, and His Majesty was so delighted with his speeches and great ingenuity that he gave him his daughter in marriage.

Shemek


Yes, he did, and I have a copy in my little book of folk tales. Still bears repeating here, as I think a lot of folks might find it useful! Thank you!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 18, 2016, 01:53:07 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898442
"Table Full O' Toys" and "Theater of the Mind" both work great.  If you've been paying attention to Chirine's commentary on logistics, there's a hint as to one reason I lean towards "Theater of the Mind."

It also depends on the situation.  Miniatures et al are great for illustrating things like exactly what the hell an Ahoggya is, or for the pomp and panoply of legions deployed for combat.  Otherworldly things I think work better with a "theater of the mind" approach; no miniature, painting, movie image, et al, has ever evoked to my mind the sheer terror of

"Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it...Its streaming mane kindled and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs....His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadows about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked."

Now THAT's a Balrog.


Oh, I do agree; if you can do it, then it's a great way to run a game. Like I think we've said a few times on this thread, it's all a spectrum of game play. Me, I can do this myself, and I enjoy doing it; I do like the little actors on the stage and the props - but it's something that may not be for everyone.

I think a lot of the negative comments I've gotten over the past years are more a reaction to the way D&D 4th edition used miniatures, and how much of a 'backlash' there was to it. When I explain how I still do 'free kriegspiel' in RPG game sessions, and don't use a grid of squares, or hexes, I seem to loose people who are not at all familiar with the concept. A form of culture shock, if you will.

It does make it feel a little lonely hereabouts, though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 18, 2016, 12:34:52 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;898317
Do/did you "punish" your player's characters when the player didn't conform to your vision of the setting, or do/did you warp the world to accommodate the player's vision.

By "punish" I mean to have the world "push back" when their character didn't do what would be expected by the setting.

Considering that when EPT was first released there were few if any examples, how much "euro" is acceptable in a game played as if it was The 1st Time?
=

Well, what the old guard said, applies for me as well...:D

Quote from: chirine ba kal;898327
From AsenRG:
Good question!
Chirine, can we work out which days correspond to May 13-14?


I'll look it up, and crunch the numbers. I'll be bask as fast as I an; our Internet provider is having issues.

Thank you:)!

Quote
OK, the most straightforward option is to cut them off.
The other option is to ask the guy to speak with the GM, and ask the GM whether they're looking for a player with some experience - only 40 years or so...:D
Your call which one to use. The most straightforward option might well be better!


Understood. This is not a regular game group, though; this is a one shot, and not likely to repeat.

Oh, well, then simply cancel it and have fun elsewhere!

Quote
We have a proverb about negative comments in my country. It translates roughly as "dogs might be barking, yet the caravan is still going its way".

I like that - and I can guess what it stems from, too... :)

We've had an abundance of traders and dogs since the earliest recorded history...;)

Quote
Unless that people that get prestige is you... just cut them off.

Which is what I've been doing. A lot of thirty-year friendships ended this past spring, and I expect we'll see a lot fewer people in the coming decades. But, on the other hand, I also expect that the people we do see, will be a lot better people...

That's why I +1ed your post;).

Quote
The guy who scheduled me for his events on the two working days simply didn't care. He's so wrapped up in the wonderfulness of being him that any 'external' concerns simply don't register. This is the guy who left his guests with me, as he had his own appointments to keep, which I thought was kind of rude to both myself and to his friends. In both cases, I would up entertaining both sets of his guests for another couple of hours, each time. And I'd warned him about all this the first time, and he went and did it again. The only reason why I've put up with this kind of thing over the years is from a desire to promote Tekumel, and encourage people to discover Phil's amazing creation.

Amazing.
Not in the good sense.

Quote
However, as a lot of these guests to my home have been part of one faction or another - people convinced that there's millions to be made in the game hobby - they've been at pains to inform me just why I am not suitable to be part of or represent 'their' Tekumel. Bad hair, unsuitable shelving, being a straight white male, all sorts of very important business concerns like that; I am not 'metrosexual' enough for them. However, if I would only give them my collections and work, however...

Of all the stupid reasons out there...
Not to mention, they're forgetting that you get as much as you give. If they want to only receive, they should try boxing and keep their guard down...:D

Quote
So, while I don't charge for entry, I do toss the ball back in any potential tour organizers' court by letting them organize their own package tours. And, since gamers usually can;t organize their way out of a wet paper bag, the problem solves itself. Unless I get a call or e-mail from this weekend's booking, I'm going to proceed with my original plans.

That's a good one. I approve strongly.

Quote from: Greentongue;898377
Acting like it is a generic fantasy European setting, with the usual Kings and Knights, just without Elves and Dwarves.
=

That, I have lots of experience with, since I've been running Chinese campaigns...
And my answer is: the setting trumps you, even if we're playing Exalted - you can work to change how it works, but you can't ignore it and hope for success. Even Ivan the Stupid worked exactly according to his setting. If you strive to be dumber, do it elsewhere.
And meanwhile, if you act like you would in a generic fantasy setting, expect people to react like they would to any other potentially dangerous individual with inadequate behaviour. Because that's what you're playing.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898413
As I've commented elsewhere, RPG groups are now "ONE BAND OF HEROES TRIED AND TRUE WELDED TOGETHER AT THE HIPS" rather than "A motley assortment of sellswords, treasure hunters, opportunists, minor nobility, and mad wizards who occasionally band together in an infinite variety of combinations to combine their strengths for a nut too tough to crack alone."

I call it the MMO influence, because not everyone plays MMOs.
In the last session, we didn't even try to remain together for long, and instead joined as many organisations as there were PCs. I was the oldest at the table, apart from the GM;).
Or maybe it was because only two of us had any significant experience with RPGs, and I was probably the only one who had experience with the thing D&D has turned into.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;898422
Well, yes. Even at the height of our time a a game group out at Phil's, we all were 'rugged individualists' with our own goals and agendas. What made us functional as a 'party' was that we all recognized this, and made sure that everybody got a little something all the time - I can think of more then a few occasions where we'd band together to make sure that one person carried out their particular mission and cooperated to make sure that they could make their goals. If we had differing objectives, we'd make sure that we would all 'succeed' and be able to show our bosses in the temples, legions, clans, or government what stout lads and lasses we all were and deserving of promotions and favors. We'd make sure to bring home the goods, and keep everybody happy.

Except Phil, of course, whose devious plots and dire perils were thwarted on a pretty regular basis by our thinking first and then bopping people over the head if they needed a thumping. It made him think a lot harder, and it made a better Tekumel as a result.

And that's how I imagine games should go.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;898423
Funny thing is that every group I have ever DM'd and played in has been of the latter persuasion. I only encountered the first kind of group once. Must be a generational thing.

Shemek

Maybe. I think it's more of a local thing.
Or maybe it's about game experience. There is "the wrong kind" of game experience, and some are unwilling to try another way.

Quote from: Spinachcat;898429
I'm gonna borrow Gronan's colorful term here. Please ignore the fuckmortons who put down your playstyle ESPECIALLY since lots and lots of RPGers are big fans of minis and props. Hell, the Savage Worlds RPG system is very popular because its specifically built to be friendly to gamers who love tables full of toys. The joke is that Savage Worlds Tekumel would probably get lots of attention and the fuckmortons be thrice damned.

I've played a ton of RPGs both "theater of the mind" and "table full of toys" and both are great fun in their own right. I would definitely love to learn more about Tekumel gameplay and the views on this thread tell me I'm not alone.

So I'm sure MANY gamers would be interested in your videos showing all your decades of props and Tekumel goodies.

Good advice.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;898433
I'd agree with this. I've had a few people, over the years, who had 'issues', and we couldn't work them out out of game, we'd part ways. Better all round.

Indeed.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898442
"Table Full O' Toys" and "Theater of the Mind" both work great.  If you've been paying attention to Chirine's commentary on logistics, there's a hint as to one reason I lean towards "Theater of the Mind."

It also depends on the situation.  Miniatures et al are great for illustrating things like exactly what the hell an Ahoggya is, or for the pomp and panoply of legions deployed for combat.  Otherworldly things I think work better with a "theater of the mind" approach; no miniature, painting, movie image, et al, has ever evoked to my mind the sheer terror of

"Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and go before it...Its streaming mane kindled and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs....His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadows about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked."

Now THAT's a Balrog.

That.
That is exactly why I prefer the "theatre of the mind" approach. I couldn't gather a collection like Chirine's if I tried for decades, and if I could, I'd have nowhere to store it.
But I can use my own advice: when describing something that's supposed to impress, talk until you see they've formed an impression, then stop.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;898450
Yeah, this gets old, too. I've found that I get two sorts of people; gamers who want to know what it was like 'back then', and who then have brain stalls over the "everything not forbidden by the rules is permitted" / "everything not permitted by the rules is forbidden" thing. Free Kriegspiel seems to confuse them, as while they really know the game mechanics, they have trouble with a gamer where the rules are 'invisible'. The other kind, sorry to say, are simply greedy - and I have to be careful and worry about 'loss prevention'...

I don't know where my gaming will be going in the future. We'll have to see.

Good idea - we'll think about this... :)

Last Saturday, we played without knowing the rules. We just trusted the GM to account for whatever we do, whenever it should matter! I'm pretty sure the NPCs didn't have stats, for example, and the target numbers were being set according to whatever we were doing. No proof, though, since we didn't know the target numbers.

And what do you know? Everybody had fun, from the guy with 17 years of play experience, to the one who was playing his first session. Only objections were when there was miscommunication - and not always even then...I didn't even mention when I had misunderstood what the GM asked.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;898457
Oh, I do agree; if you can do it, then it's a great way to run a game. Like I think we've said a few times on this thread, it's all a spectrum of game play. Me, I can do this myself, and I enjoy doing it; I do like the little actors on the stage and the props - but it's something that may not be for everyone.

I think a lot of the negative comments I've gotten over the past years are more a reaction to the way D&D 4th edition used miniatures, and how much of a 'backlash' there was to it. When I explain how I still do 'free kriegspiel' in RPG game sessions, and don't use a grid of squares, or hexes, I seem to loose people who are not at all familiar with the concept. A form of culture shock, if you will.

It does make it feel a little lonely hereabouts, though.

That might be true.
But if you want to not lose those people, just show them. Our newest player also admitted he had begun the session with doubt, after the session ended. In the same sentence, he also declared himself hooked on RPGs now;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Omega on May 18, 2016, 01:39:05 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898413
As I've commented elsewhere, RPG groups are now "ONE BAND OF HEROES TRIED AND TRUE WELDED TOGETHER AT THE HIPS" rather than "A motley assortment of sellswords, treasure hunters, opportunists, minor nobility, and mad wizards who occasionally band together in an infinite variety of combinations to combine their strengths for a nut too tough to crack alone."


To date I've never had a group of unified characters. Not even in Albedo. Its ever been for me as player and DM the motly assortment. I do though think that over time as players get more comfortable with eachother their characters mesh better. Simple survival tactic too. These are the people your life may depend on at any given moment and the member you screwed over yesterday may not be so inclined to stop you bleeding out on the cold stone tiles today. Thats even more important in Tekumel where everything and its nest siblings wants to end you horribly. Sure you have your own agenda for whatever faction or scheme. But chronic back-stabbings likely to end with a messily ended back-stabber at some point.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on May 18, 2016, 01:55:14 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898417
This. I've always explained the world to players in advance, often long before they get to the actual game session. If they are going to me miserable, I am going to be miserable, and I don't like that.

I didn't get it either; see the succeeding messages...


Maybe that is the disconnect.
Since the original start was as barbarians coming ashore in Jakalla, it is not clear that it is required for the characters to know more than that they have arrived at a city that the Player can think of as ancient Bombay India.

The perceived need to do a study of the background before play never seemed required, to me anyway.
In fact, to me, it turned away a lot of people that otherwise might have been interested in "something different".
Now, the implication is that, to play you need to take advanced courses in Tekumel and if you don't you can't avoid Playing It Wrong.  
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 18, 2016, 09:00:37 PM
Where is this implication?  What is its provenience, and its niche.

For I wish to hunt it down and kill it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 18, 2016, 10:46:06 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;898529

The perceived need to do a study of the background before play never seemed required, to me anyway.
In fact, to me, it turned away a lot of people that otherwise might have been interested in "something different".
Now, the implication is that, to play you need to take advanced courses in Tekumel and if you don't you can't avoid Playing It Wrong.  
=


For me this is the crux of the problem when it comes to creating a wider appeal for Tekumel. The thought that someone is playing it wrong is beyond absurd to me. Play it however the F**K you want! Who cares if there’s a glottal stop, or post labial inflection in the word? I guarantee you that I have been pronouncing pretty well everything wrong over the last 20 years. If I wanted to could I figure out how it should be pronounced? Sure, why not? Am I going to? F**K No! Does it really matter in the grand scheme of things whether I play the OAL exactly the same way Phil did?
This type of attitude reminds of the type of mindset amongst a group of people I avoid like plague in my other hobby: The Dreaded Rivet Counters. These are the guys who will sit and bash a new model kit because it’s a scale 1mm short, or because the glacis plate on the model has a slope that is 1 degree off the real one. The thing is though, they are experts on every kit’s shortcomings, but do not actually ever build any models. What is the point of this? While they wag their fingers and bitch about the errors in the newest Tamiya kit, I go to my workbench and start gluing some plastic together. I’ve got a display case of finished models to show. They have only a stack of unbuilt kits to show. In the end whose “better off?”  It’s the same with playing Tékumel. Just roll some dice and don’t worry if it’s Ahoggya or Ahoggyá.  Damn, this attitude really cheeses me off sometimes! :mad:
Here endeth the nerd rage. And there was great rejoicing!
Unfortunately, as Gronan mentioned in a previous post (#120):  “Sadly, Phil fell into villainous company who thought RPGs were "ART!" and that "ART!" meant grim and dark and nihilistic, and who knew how to manipulate Phil. Tekumel has been the worse for it in my opinion.” These villainous people still seem to hold all of the “power”, so to speak, and they are too arrogant or stupid, to see that their way will only lead to the extinction of Tekumel. It’s sad really.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 18, 2016, 10:56:14 PM
Finally have a few minutes and don't have to type on a phone...

First, the "BAND OF HEROES."  D&D 2nd Edition really gave this a big push, explicitly so.  This is the edition that eliminated demons and assassins, after all.  PCs were supposed to be Nicely Handsome Good Persons doing Nicely Handsome Good Person things.  D&D is and has always been The Big Dog, so it's no surprise this took off.  Combine this with the fantasy book explosion of the 80s being almost exclusively of the "Good Guys Save The World" style, and it's no wonder that many people default to a band of heroes joined at the hip.

Miniatures.  Well, for well over a hundred years wargames have been on a continuum of free to rigid.  CHAINMAIL is fairly close to the "free" end, whereas WRG is more "rigid."  Board games, from Parcheesi to Advanced Squad Leader, tend to be more "rigid."

My experience seems to show that rigid games are easier for the players to pick up cold with no knowledge of war, or gaming, or anything else, in terms of "sit down, read, and go", whereas free games work better if there is a fair bit of knowledge by the referee at least.  The first RPG I saw that required miniatures was "The Fantasy Trip," which grew out of a couple of hex-and-chit skirmish wargames.  TFT combat is quite rigid.  I remember the first time I played D&D with some people who had cut their teeth on TFT; I'd been using miniatures in a "show the approximate situation" way, and they wanted a much more fixed representation of what was going on.

Add to this that around 79 or 80 TSR switched its marketing to teenaged boys who would most likely not have been familiar with miniatures wargames, and you get a more rigid version of the rules.  Then with 3rd Edition and the addition of miniatures they created a very rigid, rules intensive way of using miniatures.

Chirine and I both cut our teeth more on the free end of the spectrum, and he runs his extravaganzas that way.  I think that's one reason he often has more success with neos or non gamers; they don't have things to unlearn.  Rigid games seem too confining and complicated to me, and people used to more rigid games find free games unformed and vague.  It influences a lot of stuff; for instance, if we're in a chamber and Chirine says "You hear a faint chiming sound and see a bluish white glare approaching," I will not say, "What is in the chamber;" rather, I will say "Is there something in here that I can take cover behind?"  See the difference... I pose the question in a way that makes my intentions into part of the question.

Actually, I'd love to game more with miniatures, but the first problem as above is that I want to use them to set the stage and spark the imagination, not build a to-the-picoangstrom scale model of the combat.

And secondly, as Chirine has so eloquently described, the logistics of gaming anywhere other than lair sweet lair can be a major nightmare.  To get to GaryCon last, I first had to take an 8 hour bus ride to GET to Minneapolis, and THEN get my sorry carcass down to Lake Geneva.  I don't have Passepartout to load my packages, parcels, and portmanteaux, just me; so I limited myself to one medium large suitcase to carry a week's worth of clothes PLUS everything I needed for gaming.  If Paul Stormberg wasn't supplying so much, I wouldn't be able to play miniatures or run CHAINMAIL.

I mean, I'd love to do a "Guns of Naboo" style Braunstein; the paper model SF stuff out there is lovely and fun to assemble, and I know little cheats like using 36" lengths of music wire to make tall spindly structures that are sturdy enough to use.  I'd love to have Jedi fighting on an inch-wide railless walkway four feet above the table.

But I have no way to CARRY all that jazz. :(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 18, 2016, 10:58:55 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;898619

This type of attitude reminds of the type of mindset amongst a group of people I avoid like plague in my other hobby: The Dreaded Rivet Counters. These are the guys who will sit and bash a new model kit because it’s a scale 1mm short, or because the glacis plate on the model has a slope that is 1 degree off the real one. The thing is though, they are experts on every kit’s shortcomings, but do not actually ever build any models. What is the point of this? While they wag their fingers and bitch about the errors in the newest Tamiya kit, I go to my workbench and start gluing some plastic together. I’ve got a display case of finished models to show. They have only a stack of unbuilt kits to show.
Shemek.

They occur in model railroading too.  There are ways to describe how a kit can be improved without being an utter dickweevil about it, but these people seem unable to comprehend that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 18, 2016, 11:25:08 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898622
They occur in model railroading too.  There are ways to describe how a kit can be improved without being an utter dickweevil about it, but these people seem unable to comprehend that.

I just don't understand it. I really think that they get off on trying to ruin things for people, or as you put it they're just "utter dickweevils".

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 18, 2016, 11:48:43 PM
Chirine,

I found this on line, and thought I would share it here. Not sure if you've seen it before.

-and the
STRONG Shall INHERIT
by PHILLIP BARKER

Illustrated by PHILLIP BARKER

[ATTACH=CONFIG]51[/ATTACH]

PHARUN THE DARK had always had a passion for the beautiful things of life. And when the great lords of Malchairan rode forth in quest of glory, Pharun remained in his chambers engrossed in some scholarly pursuit. With his thin, pale hands he was wont to turn the pages of his beloved tomes and peer nearsightedly into all manner of bookish wisdom. Unlike his brothers was he, and whereas the other four sons of Chaga wore their mail to table and fought amongst themselves and made false promises to the kitchen maidens and spent their time at less savory pursuits, Pharun simply smiled and padded about in a comfortable robe and slippers, with book in hand.

Yet there was one thing else which Pharun loved aside from his books. And that was a woman. Oh, no, not one of the feline, painted, half-naked flirts of Malchairan; a simple, shy maiden from Phrantos who wore her robes ample and unadorned. A hostage was she, a daughter of the doddering king of her island home. Not half the fierce warriors of Chaga's stronghold knew she existed, and the other women of the place were wont to snap their pretty fingers and jeer at her provincial ways.

So she was lonely, a frail white little mist of a girl, alone in a nest of enemies. Which is probably why Pharun met her. He had heard her singing one night and had stopped to listen. In this way they had become friends, and Pharun went often to her chambers bearing his books and his writings. To her also he brought his problems, his frustrations and his dreams, and she soothed him, placing her slender fingers upon his brow and singing to him in the sibilant tongue of her own Phrantos.

"Indeed," he used to whisper, "It was your singing which first led me to you, and still do I love it best of all your charms."

Then she would smile and shyly close off his lips with her own. And in this way a bond was made between the two lonely ones, making the cold walls take on greater warmth and carpeting the marble floor with rosy clouds.

Chaga the bloody-handed, upon the throne of gold, looked with disfavor upon this strange and unintelligible being that was given him as a son. Chaga carressed his jeweled sword hilt and pondered mightily upon it. In vain did he prevail upon Pharun to put aside these senseless books and take up the sword and go forth to slay monsters and such indiscriminate enemies as could be found. Also in vain did Chaga offer Pharun wines and gold and the charms of pretty wenches. And when the king grew angry and expostulated at the top of his lusty lungs, as was his habit, Pharun simply paid no attention, his mind fixed on distant wisdom.

At first his brothers were in favor of letting him be. They jeered and teased, as will most intolerant youths, but that got them nothing but a gentle smile. They invited him to join them and got the same gentle smile and a shake of the head.

"Nay now, father," said Goran the eldest, "For long have we permitted this foolishness, and finally something must be done. There lies but one thing to do and that is to snatch away his toys. Only then will he realize that he is not yet a woolgathering graybeard. 'Twill serve to bring him to his senses."

"But that would be a most unfatherly thing to do. There must be other ways."

Goran shifted his brawny shoulders beneath his armor. "What matters it? Know you that the house of Chaga is laughed at by other great princes? Simply because of that jackass son of yours. They call us now 'the gentle lambs' and 'the Bookish Kings' and even more unpleasant things. He is the disgrace of our family."

"'Tis not as bad as you say, but the underlying truth is there. Pharun is a disgrace to my name and to the names of our glorious and warlike ancestors. How he came about here is beyond my understanding. A little mouse in a house of lions!"

"Then as I say, sire. A little swift work and it's done." Goran chuckled throatily. "Without his precious toys his mind will turn to more manly arts. 'Twill do him infinite good."

Chaga looked at his son from under the beetling eaves of his eyes and smiled. After all, it was for the boy's own good.

Goran waited patiently, knowing full well that his time would come. It was all he could manage not to mention the plan to Pharun just to watch the look on his face. It would be good.

Indeed, the proper moment came. the bronze-bound portals rumbled open, and Pharun was off to study the beauties of a summer afternoon. His chamber lay empty and unlocked. Swiftly Goran was inside.

His strong brown hands made short work of sweeping the parchments into the smouldering fireplace. Goran watched the hungry flames lash at the dusty sheets for a moment and then turned to the cabinets lining the wall. The ancient tomes, the lengthy writings, the astrolabes and other instruments of grammarie, the little cases of specimens and the delicate bottles of drugs -- all he hurled into the fireplace. He stamped into the sleeping alcove and tore the hangings from the walls and trampled them beneath booted feet, wild with sheer destructive lust. He did not hear the door open behind him.

It was the captive princess. Her eyes widened in horror, and a single sob of breath left her lips.

Goran whirled. "What in blazes do you want? Who --?"

"What have you done? Pharun will be --"

With one swift stride Goran was at her side, his heavy hand over her lips. He kicked the door shut with one powerful foot and dragged the girl back into the room.

"Never mind what Pharun will do!" Goran jeered down into her face. "He'll probably just moan a bit and then forget this foolishness."

For a silent moment she looked up at him, and then divining the look in his eyes, she struggled, panting wildly in his calm embrace, flailing wildly with her small fists and kicking the metal greaves with her soft slippers. Goran grinned and eyed her appreciatively. Perhaps Pharun had a better eye for wenches than he had thought.

Why struggle so? See, I hold you easily enough." Deliberately he tightened his grip so that she was pressed hard against his silvery breastplate. Goran bent and kissed her, fiercely, bruising her lips with his. "Isn't that better than a weakling?" He kissed her again.

Goran moved, still holding her, to Pharun's ornate bed. He threw her on it brutally and began to divest himself of his armor. "Lie still now and be a good girl and don't cry out." he jeered, "You're going to see what a real lover is like."

All this time she had lain motionless. Now she moved like a frightened deer and snatched a bodkin from her waist. Goran eyed her warily, but kept on removing his armor. Too late he saw what she intended. With a frustrated cry Goran leaped for her, but he was too late by seconds. She had plunged the dagger home into her own breast.

Goran stood a moment, his mind dwelling with horrid certainty on what his father would do to him for thus causing the death of a valuable hostage. He drew one sobbing breath and turned to flee.

Pharun stood in the doorway.

He did not seem to see Goran where he stood in the center of the rubbish-littered floor. His eyes flicked to the bright red splotch upon the breast of his beloved and a grimace of pain passed across his set features. Then silently he turned from Goran to stand, staring, into the fireplace.

For a moment he stood thus, then leaned down. When he rose in his hand was the scorched remnant of a parchment, tightly rolled and tied with a bit of cloth of gold. Quickly his fingers untied the knot and with infinite tenderness unrolled the charred fragment of the scroll.

The characters inscribed on the parchment meant nothing to Goran's staring eyes, but he recognized, close by the charred edge, a representation of the castle of Chaga. A moment to glance at that and then Goran realized that Pharun's eyes were upon him. His rose to meet them.

In Pharun's eyes there was hatred; but more than hatred, sorrow; and more than sorrow, pity.

"You fool ...." Pharun whispered, but his eyes spoke volumes as they turned to the window. Hypnotized, Goran's eyes followed his brother's to see, not the rich fields and fertile valleys of his father's kingdom, but ...... nothing.

Understanding awakening in his mind, Goran turned again to his brother.

Once again Pharun's eyes were on the pale, cold breast of his loved one; then his hand was over the fire. Deliberately the fingers opened and, with deceptive slowness, the fragment of parchment drifted down toward the consuming flames.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 19, 2016, 02:05:23 AM
From AsenRG:

Still having connection issues - I hope this works...

We've had an abundance of traders and dogs since the earliest recorded history...;)

Understood. This proverb may go bask as far as ancient times... :)

That's why I +1ed your post;).

Thank you!

Amazing. Not in the good sense.

It was a very traumatic game session, both for the players and for myself. I think of the players who come to my house as my guests, and I like to make them welcome and feel that they are 'at home'. This guy was the same one with the age-inappropriate murder mystery , who was so wrapped up in his writing and his presentation that he ignored the players increasing discomfort, and my own. He then capped it off with this pair of 'royal visits', and did a great job of killing off the game group and my interest in gaming.

Of all the stupid reasons out there...
Not to mention, they're forgetting that you get as much as you give. If they want to only receive, they should try boxing and keep their guard down...:D


But to them these are very important things - it's all about their brand identity, and how they can exploit Tekumel for their own personal reasons. Phil and his creation have been largely lost in the rush; when I was told that Phil's vision of how his creation must be 'properly interpreted' - and that Phil himself was excluded from the category of 'proper interpreters', I knew that it was time to go...

And that's how I imagine games should go.

Me, too!

Last Saturday, we played without knowing the rules. We just trusted the GM to account for whatever we do, whenever it should matter! I'm pretty sure the NPCs didn't have stats, for example, and the target numbers were being set according to whatever we were doing. No proof, though, since we didn't know the target numbers.
And what do you know? Everybody had fun, from the guy with 17 years of play experience, to the one who was playing his first session. Only objections were when there was miscommunication - and not always even then...I didn't even mention when I had misunderstood what the GM asked.


I've had games like this; they are wonderful!

That might be true.But if you want to not lose those people, just show them. Our newest player also admitted he had begun the session with doubt, after the session ended. In the same sentence, he also declared himself hooked on RPGs now;).

Good advice, here! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 19, 2016, 02:16:24 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;898529
Maybe that is the disconnect.
Since the original start was as barbarians coming ashore in Jakalla, it is not clear that it is required for the characters to know more than that they have arrived at a city that the Player can think of as ancient Bombay India.

The perceived need to do a study of the background before play never seemed required, to me anyway.
In fact, to me, it turned away a lot of people that otherwise might have been interested in "something different".
Now, the implication is that, to play you need to take advanced courses in Tekumel and if you don't you can't avoid Playing It Wrong.  
=


Agreed. What I do is give a very concise overview of the world, and I do not talk for more then about fifteen minutes on this. My notion is that the players will be able to find about all this cultural stuff as they play - the way we did, back in the day. When we got started, all we had were a few copies of EPT - the thing was expensive, after all - and we had to listen to Phil drop casual side notes as we played. We must have liked it; we stayed for a few years, and did a little publishing stuff for him and for Tekumel along the way.

I keep saying that you don;t need to know the whole thing before you play or GM; work into it, and you'll have the same sense of wonder that we did.

Yes, the 'academic' / 'graduate studies' approach has turned a lot of potential players off - if I had a dollar for the number of people who have played in one of my games, talked to me over the phone, visited my house, or e-mailed me and told me that they wished that they'd talked to me before visiting 'official Tekumel fandom' - because, as a noted arr-pee-gee pundit once remarked "You make Tekumel sound like fun - I'd be well able to retire.

The 'Official, Authorized, Approved' Way To Play that got started in the 1990s by several of Barker's Own is a lot more about a few people trying to bolster their position as The Sole Authority for Tekumel, and that's when the Right Way To Play Tekumel Nonsense got started; they told me, in as many words, that they wanted to be the TSR of the late 1980s and early 1990s - lots of centraized control, lots of One True Way, and lots of money in it for them.

< shrug > I'm here to play games and have a good time.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 19, 2016, 02:28:20 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898611
Where is this implication?  What is its provenience, and its niche.

For I wish to hunt it down and kill it.


It's your gaming buddy, starting in the 1990s. The one who drove Kathy out of the group. The one who runs his How To Play Tekumel The Right Way lectures at game conventions. The one who insists that GMs and players have to learn Phil's languages to be able to play in Tekumel. The one who says that, quote, "only a bisexual person of color can properly interpret Tekumel". The one who told me that is was my duty to him to locate the information that would prove his contention that Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson stole the idea for RPGs from Phil Barker, so he could publish his book and prove Jon Peterson wrong. The one who told Ambereen that the only reason that my daughters, son-in-law, wife, and I spent six months taking care of Phil before he passed away was so that we could get control of the Tekumel IP. The one who told Luke Gygax that I wasn't fit to run games at Gary Con. The one who recently had a spat on the Official Facebook page with one of his fellow Directors, telling the latter that Phil's texts needed to be "properly interpreted" in order for them to be allowed in The Canon.

Look at the videos, my General. They put up one of his 'Tekumel Language Camps' on You Tube for you.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 19, 2016, 02:29:34 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;898619
For me this is the crux of the problem when it comes to creating a wider appeal for Tekumel. The thought that someone is playing it wrong is beyond absurd to me. Play it however the F**K you want! Who cares if there’s a glottal stop, or post labial inflection in the word? I guarantee you that I have been pronouncing pretty well everything wrong over the last 20 years. If I wanted to could I figure out how it should be pronounced? Sure, why not? Am I going to? F**K No! Does it really matter in the grand scheme of things whether I play the OAL exactly the same way Phil did?
This type of attitude reminds of the type of mindset amongst a group of people I avoid like plague in my other hobby: The Dreaded Rivet Counters. These are the guys who will sit and bash a new model kit because it’s a scale 1mm short, or because the glacis plate on the model has a slope that is 1 degree off the real one. The thing is though, they are experts on every kit’s shortcomings, but do not actually ever build any models. What is the point of this? While they wag their fingers and bitch about the errors in the newest Tamiya kit, I go to my workbench and start gluing some plastic together. I’ve got a display case of finished models to show. They have only a stack of unbuilt kits to show. In the end whose “better off?”  It’s the same with playing Tékumel. Just roll some dice and don’t worry if it’s Ahoggya or Ahoggyá.  Damn, this attitude really cheeses me off sometimes! :mad:
Here endeth the nerd rage. And there was great rejoicing!
Unfortunately, as Gronan mentioned in a previous post (#120):  “Sadly, Phil fell into villainous company who thought RPGs were "ART!" and that "ART!" meant grim and dark and nihilistic, and who knew how to manipulate Phil. Tekumel has been the worse for it in my opinion.” These villainous people still seem to hold all of the “power”, so to speak, and they are too arrogant or stupid, to see that their way will only lead to the extinction of Tekumel. It’s sad really.

Shemek.


Precisely. And it's pathetic, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 19, 2016, 02:34:33 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898621
Finally have a few minutes and don't have to type on a phone...

First, the "BAND OF HEROES."  D&D 2nd Edition really gave this a big push, explicitly so.  This is the edition that eliminated demons and assassins, after all.  PCs were supposed to be Nicely Handsome Good Persons doing Nicely Handsome Good Person things.  D&D is and has always been The Big Dog, so it's no surprise this took off.  Combine this with the fantasy book explosion of the 80s being almost exclusively of the "Good Guys Save The World" style, and it's no wonder that many people default to a band of heroes joined at the hip.

Miniatures.  Well, for well over a hundred years wargames have been on a continuum of free to rigid.  CHAINMAIL is fairly close to the "free" end, whereas WRG is more "rigid."  Board games, from Parcheesi to Advanced Squad Leader, tend to be more "rigid."

My experience seems to show that rigid games are easier for the players to pick up cold with no knowledge of war, or gaming, or anything else, in terms of "sit down, read, and go", whereas free games work better if there is a fair bit of knowledge by the referee at least.  The first RPG I saw that required miniatures was "The Fantasy Trip," which grew out of a couple of hex-and-chit skirmish wargames.  TFT combat is quite rigid.  I remember the first time I played D&D with some people who had cut their teeth on TFT; I'd been using miniatures in a "show the approximate situation" way, and they wanted a much more fixed representation of what was going on.

Add to this that around 79 or 80 TSR switched its marketing to teenaged boys who would most likely not have been familiar with miniatures wargames, and you get a more rigid version of the rules.  Then with 3rd Edition and the addition of miniatures they created a very rigid, rules intensive way of using miniatures.

Chirine and I both cut our teeth more on the free end of the spectrum, and he runs his extravaganzas that way.  I think that's one reason he often has more success with neos or non gamers; they don't have things to unlearn.  Rigid games seem too confining and complicated to me, and people used to more rigid games find free games unformed and vague.  It influences a lot of stuff; for instance, if we're in a chamber and Chirine says "You hear a faint chiming sound and see a bluish white glare approaching," I will not say, "What is in the chamber;" rather, I will say "Is there something in here that I can take cover behind?"  See the difference... I pose the question in a way that makes my intentions into part of the question.

Actually, I'd love to game more with miniatures, but the first problem as above is that I want to use them to set the stage and spark the imagination, not build a to-the-picoangstrom scale model of the combat.

And secondly, as Chirine has so eloquently described, the logistics of gaming anywhere other than lair sweet lair can be a major nightmare.  To get to GaryCon last, I first had to take an 8 hour bus ride to GET to Minneapolis, and THEN get my sorry carcass down to Lake Geneva.  I don't have Passepartout to load my packages, parcels, and portmanteaux, just me; so I limited myself to one medium large suitcase to carry a week's worth of clothes PLUS everything I needed for gaming.  If Paul Stormberg wasn't supplying so much, I wouldn't be able to play miniatures or run CHAINMAIL.

I mean, I'd love to do a "Guns of Naboo" style Braunstein; the paper model SF stuff out there is lovely and fun to assemble, and I know little cheats like using 36" lengths of music wire to make tall spindly structures that are sturdy enough to use.  I'd love to have Jedi fighting on an inch-wide railless walkway four feet above the table.

But I have no way to CARRY all that jazz. :(


Well, yes; this. Much as I love games and models, they are an issue to transport. What I have found interesting in my 'outreach' to games is that the idea of getting together at somebody's house for an afternoon or evening of fun is just not there any more. It's either at a convention or the local FLGs, or nothing. So, for me, it's nothing. Add in the WRONG WAY TO PLAY nonsense - for any game or setting - and any interest I can muster goes right out the window. Might do something at the next Recon, though; been asked to by some old friends who go.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 19, 2016, 02:46:44 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;898629
Chirine,

I found this on line, and thought I would share it here. Not sure if you've seen it before.

Shemek.


Yes, I have. About the beginning of 1977, when I was sorting and organizing Phil's files. I found this and the short story about the Petal Throne, along with the artwork he'd done at the time for this fanzine. I thought that they were both really cool, and suggested that he republish them. A lot of his other early work got reused in EPT, as well. I think Phil's early works are fascinating, and it's one of the reasons that I got involved with Tekumel in the first place.

My gut feeling - and for this I am a heretic - is that the closer you get to Phil himself, the better you will be able to understand his creation. An archivist is helpful, to find everything in the library, but an 'interpreter' should not be needed for an intelligent and /or educated person.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 19, 2016, 08:43:17 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898641
It's your gaming buddy, starting in the 1990s. The one who drove Kathy out of the group. The one who runs his How To Play Tekumel The Right Way lectures at game conventions. The one who insists that GMs and players have to learn Phil's languages to be able to play in Tekumel. The one who says that, quote, "only a bisexual person of color can properly interpret Tekumel". The one who told me that is was my duty to him to locate the information that would prove his contention that Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson stole the idea for RPGs from Phil Barker, so he could publish his book and prove Jon Peterson wrong. The one who told Ambereen that the only reason that my daughters, son-in-law, wife, and I spent six months taking care of Phil before he passed away was so that we could get control of the Tekumel IP. The one who told Luke Gygax that I wasn't fit to run games at Gary Con. The one who recently had a spat on the Official Facebook page with one of his fellow Directors, telling the latter that Phil's texts needed to be "properly interpreted" in order for them to be allowed in The Canon.

Look at the videos, my General. They put up one of his 'Tekumel Language Camps' on You Tube for you.


My Lord Chirine, MADNESS!!! That is like saying, The Lord Creator can not understand his own creation...!!! Madness

H;0)

PS Sad on so many levels. That monster should be put into a room full of mirrors. For if The Creator can not interpret his own creation, how can the monster...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 19, 2016, 10:02:59 AM
Back in 1976 some numbnuts in a fanzine said "D&D is TOO IMPORTANT to entrust to Gary Gygax!"  No, I'm not kidding.

Gary's response was "it's not entrusted to anybody, everyone can do what they want with it."  Personally, I think he should have said "You want to be in charge of OFFICIAL D&D?  Okay, for $20 Million it's all yours, Sparky!"

Gods.  What part of "commercial product for sale" do they not understand?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 19, 2016, 10:09:58 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898640
Yes, the 'academic' / 'graduate studies' approach has turned a lot of potential players off -

As a percentage, the number of Americans with college degrees has gone up 300% since 1970.  Combine this with a comment made by my Old Testament prof and advisor that "over the last twenty years incoming students no longer know how to read different types of literature differently" and you have a recipe for subjecting everything to ridiculous levels of pseudointellectual scrutiny.

Just look at some of the OSR/Original D&D forums; they are overanalyzing the game and its mechanics to a ridiculous degree and coming up with an incredibly complex system of mythology to explain it.  For instance, in OD&D the magic user's XP per level is not a smooth progression.  THOUSANDS of words have been spent on this.  The fact is, Gary drew up a chart and then diddled around with the numbers for a year or so until the game played the way he wanted.  Rules weren't created in this atmosphere of intense analysis.

Sort of like how a cheapie little space opera movie filmed in 1975-1976 has been subjected to forty years of frame-by-frame analysis by weenie-heads who seem to be unable to just shut the hell up and watch the movie.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 19, 2016, 10:19:01 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898621
Finally have a few minutes and don't have to type on a phone...

First, the "BAND OF HEROES."  D&D 2nd Edition really gave this a big push, explicitly so.  This is the edition that eliminated demons and assassins, after all.  PCs were supposed to be Nicely Handsome Good Persons doing Nicely Handsome Good Person things.  D&D is and has always been The Big Dog, so it's no surprise this took off.  Combine this with the fantasy book explosion of the 80s being almost exclusively of the "Good Guys Save The World" style, and it's no wonder that many people default to a band of heroes joined at the hip.

I see. Did those changes lead to the Explosion, or did they just become popular because of it?


Quote
Chirine and I both cut our teeth more on the free end of the spectrum, and he runs his extravaganzas that way.  I think that's one reason he often has more success with neos or non gamers; they don't have things to unlearn.  Rigid games seem too confining and complicated to me, and people used to more rigid games find free games unformed and vague.  It influences a lot of stuff; for instance, if we're in a chamber and Chirine says "You hear a faint chiming sound and see a bluish white glare approaching," I will not say, "What is in the chamber;" rather, I will say "Is there something in here that I can take cover behind?"  See the difference... I pose the question in a way that makes my intentions into part of the question.

Fun fact, some people would deem that too storygamey!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;898638
From AsenRG:

Still having connection issues - I hope this works...

Hope your "Net1" resolves them soon:)!

Quote
We've had an abundance of traders and dogs since the earliest recorded history...;)

Understood. This proverb may go bask as far as ancient times... :)

It is possible. I simply didn't know.

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Amazing. Not in the good sense.

It was a very traumatic game session, both for the players and for myself. I think of the players who come to my house as my guests, and I like to make them welcome and feel that they are 'at home'. This guy was the same one with the age-inappropriate murder mystery , who was so wrapped up in his writing and his presentation that he ignored the players increasing discomfort, and my own. He then capped it off with this pair of 'royal visits', and did a great job of killing off the game group and my interest in gaming.

You have the patience of a saint (a saint that's not Boris I Mihail).
Which is to say, I'd have probably booted him earlier.

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Of all the stupid reasons out there...
Not to mention, they're forgetting that you get as much as you give. If they want to only receive, they should try boxing and keep their guard down...


But to them these are very important things - it's all about their brand identity, and how they can exploit Tekumel for their own personal reasons. Phil and his creation have been largely lost in the rush; when I was told that Phil's vision of how his creation must be 'properly interpreted' - and that Phil himself was excluded from the category of 'proper interpreters', I knew that it was time to go...

I concur.

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And that's how I imagine games should go.

Me, too!

No surprise. I learned quite a bit about "how games should go" from Gronan, back when he was Old Geezer, Bren, you yourself, Raggi (yes, the Lamentations of the Flame Princess's guy) and old-school Runequest/Traveller fans that aren't present on this forum. I'm still learning, too, but in a way, I'm following the same school.

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Last Saturday, we played without knowing the rules. We just trusted the GM to account for whatever we do, whenever it should matter! I'm pretty sure the NPCs didn't have stats, for example, and the target numbers were being set according to whatever we were doing. No proof, though, since we didn't know the target numbers.
And what do you know? Everybody had fun, from the guy with 17 years of play experience, to the one who was playing his first session. Only objections were when there was miscommunication - and not always even then...I didn't even mention when I had misunderstood what the GM asked.


I've had games like this; they are wonderful!

Indeed.

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That might be true.But if you want to not lose those people, just show them. Our newest player also admitted he had begun the session with doubt, after the session ended. In the same sentence, he also declared himself hooked on RPGs now.

Good advice, here! :)

Well, the trick is to make them want to try...:D

Quote from: chirine ba kal;898640
Agreed. What I do is give a very concise overview of the world, and I do not talk for more then about fifteen minutes on this.

Can you make a youtube video of your overview? Pretty please? It might be helpful...:)

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Yes, the 'academic' / 'graduate studies' approach has turned a lot of potential players off - if I had a dollar for the number of people who have played in one of my games, talked to me over the phone, visited my house, or e-mailed me and told me that they wished that they'd talked to me before visiting 'official Tekumel fandom' - because, as a noted arr-pee-gee pundit once remarked "You make Tekumel sound like fun - I'd be well able to retire.

Well, I like "academic" approach...but that's because to me, that equates to well-researched. And I can use that to make a fun game; poorly-researched stuff needs me to lay it a finishing paint.

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The 'Official, Authorized, Approved' Way To Play that got started in the 1990s by several of Barker's Own is a lot more about a few people trying to bolster their position as The Sole Authority for Tekumel, and that's when the Right Way To Play Tekumel Nonsense got started; they told me, in as many words, that they wanted to be the TSR of the late 1980s and early 1990s - lots of centraized control, lots of One True Way, and lots of money in it for them.

There's no One True Way to run any setting. Those people fail at Refereeing 101 and at Game Development 101;).
Refereeing: Since none of them is MAR Barker, obviously they're running it wrong.
Game development: Don't tell me how I should play. You might make polite suggestions. Then give me the setting and system material, and "unleash the Referees of War"!

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< shrug > I'm here to play games and have a good time.

Me too! And one of my players just told me "Tekumel sounds like fun, from what you've described to me".
I guess I also commit the crime of using well-researched settings in a fun way...:p

Quote from: chirine ba kal;898641
It's your gaming buddy, starting in the 1990s. The one who drove Kathy out of the group. The one who runs his How To Play Tekumel The Right Way lectures at game conventions. The one who insists that GMs and players have to learn Phil's languages to be able to play in Tekumel. The one who says that, quote, "only a bisexual person of color can properly interpret Tekumel". The one who told me that is was my duty to him to locate the information that would prove his contention that Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson stole the idea for RPGs from Phil Barker, so he could publish his book and prove Jon Peterson wrong. The one who told Ambereen that the only reason that my daughters, son-in-law, wife, and I spent six months taking care of Phil before he passed away was so that we could get control of the Tekumel IP. The one who told Luke Gygax that I wasn't fit to run games at Gary Con. The one who recently had a spat on the Official Facebook page with one of his fellow Directors, telling the latter that Phil's texts needed to be "properly interpreted" in order for them to be allowed in The Canon.

Look at the videos, my General. They put up one of his 'Tekumel Language Camps' on You Tube for you.

Note taken.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;898647
Yes, I have. About the beginning of 1977, when I was sorting and organizing Phil's files. I found this and the short story about the Petal Throne, along with the artwork he'd done at the time for this fanzine. I thought that they were both really cool, and suggested that he republish them. A lot of his other early work got reused in EPT, as well. I think Phil's early works are fascinating, and it's one of the reasons that I got involved with Tekumel in the first place.

My gut feeling - and for this I am a heretic - is that the closer you get to Phil himself, the better you will be able to understand his creation. An archivist is helpful, to find everything in the library, but an 'interpreter' should not be needed for an intelligent and /or educated person.

But what are supposed to do the people that don't fit said description;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 19, 2016, 12:39:49 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;898689
My Lord Chirine, MADNESS!!! That is like saying, The Lord Creator can not understand his own creation...!!! Madness

H;0)

PS Sad on so many levels. That monster should be put into a room full of mirrors. For if The Creator can not interpret his own creation, how can the monster...


Well, then you're a heretic too. As Gen. George Pickett remarked when somebody asked him why his attack that hot summer day at Gettysburg had failed, "I always thought that the Yankees had something to do with it." It is indeed madness, and where we are today with Tekumel is a direct byproduct of the groundwork laid by these people in the middle 1990s. Elitism has been their 'business
model' for something like twenty years, and we've seen the results.  Which, I think, is a pity; Phil's astounding creation deserves better.

Anybody got a question about Tekumel? This is getting me blood pressure up, again... :( Sorry...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 19, 2016, 12:49:48 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898704
Back in 1976 some numbnuts in a fanzine said "D&D is TOO IMPORTANT to entrust to Gary Gygax!"  No, I'm not kidding.

Gary's response was "it's not entrusted to anybody, everyone can do what they want with it."  Personally, I think he should have said "You want to be in charge of OFFICIAL D&D?  Okay, for $20 Million it's all yours, Sparky!"

Gods.  What part of "commercial product for sale" do they not understand?


None of it. Their belief - and this is from one of the meetings I sat through - is that purchasing a Tekumel product is simply a lease or something, and that they retain "creative jurisdiction" over the IP at all times; individual games and campaigns are subject to their oversight and review. This is the same crowd who thought that a monthly fee for people to play would be a good thing; pay your $10 - $25 a month fee, and you would be given "Official, Authorized, and Approved" status from them. This may be why they were so hot to make sure that Gary Con had to post Official Notices at the convention that any games we were running in the aborted Tekumel room were "Unoffical, Unauthorized, and Unapproved" by them.

Now, my General, last time I looked you had a few brain cells that rubbed together in your noggin. Use your innate business sense and tell me, what effect these poster-sized notices at the convention would have had on the gaming public? And on the reputation of Tekumel? And, for that matter, on them?

If I was truly the horrible ogre I've been made out to be (along with the wife and daughters), I would have gone and done the convention and made damn sure that these posters were very obviously displayed, in total compliance with their orders. What do you think the result would have been, my General?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 19, 2016, 12:54:47 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898708
As a percentage, the number of Americans with college degrees has gone up 300% since 1970.  Combine this with a comment made by my Old Testament prof and advisor that "over the last twenty years incoming students no longer know how to read different types of literature differently" and you have a recipe for subjecting everything to ridiculous levels of pseudointellectual scrutiny.

Just look at some of the OSR/Original D&D forums; they are overanalyzing the game and its mechanics to a ridiculous degree and coming up with an incredibly complex system of mythology to explain it.  For instance, in OD&D the magic user's XP per level is not a smooth progression.  THOUSANDS of words have been spent on this.  The fact is, Gary drew up a chart and then diddled around with the numbers for a year or so until the game played the way he wanted.  Rules weren't created in this atmosphere of intense analysis.

Sort of like how a cheapie little space opera movie filmed in 1975-1976 has been subjected to forty years of frame-by-frame analysis by weenie-heads who seem to be unable to just shut the hell up and watch the movie.


Very true, just like that late 1960's TV show about those people in funny shirts wandering around in a spaceship.

True story: When I asked a friend and fellow Tekumel player to come up with a one sheet, two-sided introduction to Tekumel that I could hand out at conventions to new gamers, he came back to me with a sixty-three page Readers' Digest edition of the Tekumel Sourcebook. His idea was that people would read this at the table, before the game session, as that way they would get all the information they needed to truly understand Tekumel.

I said no thank you, and kept my remarks down to fifteen minutes.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 19, 2016, 01:06:41 PM
From AsenRG:
Hope your "Net1" resolves them soon:)!


The problem seems to be on the service provider's end; our connection is not delivering the full rate we're paying for. I'm limited to posts and e-mails in off-peak periods, as the 'pipe' doesn;t seem big enough for the traffic volume on offer. There's an apartment building next door that may share the node, so that may be the issue...

You have the patience of a saint (a saint that's not Boris I Mihail).
Which is to say, I'd have probably booted him earlier.


You're not the only one who's said that; Eldest Daughter said the same - right about the time she showed off her version of 'club wear' for the first time. I suggested that she take a jacket; she refused on fashion grounds, and I got a call very late that night asking if I could being a wrap or something to her at the club, as it was indeed a cold night. I brought her the mighty and powerfully warm boat cloak that the Missus had made me, so Eldest looked quite dramatic and was quite warm... :)

No surprise. I learned quite a bit about "how games should go" from Gronan, back when he was Old Geezer, Bren, you yourself, Raggi (yes, the Lamentations of the Flame Princess's guy) and old-school Runequest/Traveller fans that aren't present on this forum. I'm still learning, too, but in a way, I'm following the same school.

And that, in my book, is what makes a good gamer - the ability to learn...
Indeed.

Well, the trick is to make them want to try...:D

Oh, agreed! Very much so!!! :)

Can you make a youtube video of your overview? Pretty please? It might be helpful...:)

Oh! Never thought of that! I'll see what we can do...

Well, I like "academic" approach...but that's because to me, that equates to well-researched. And I can use that to make a fun game; poorly-researched stuff needs me to lay it a finishing paint.

Your definition of 'academic' is the same as mine; the approach I'm talking about is to take up play time with lectures, such as at a recent convention where the Tekumel Expert GM lectured the players for one hour of a four hour time slot. Does this all the time, I'm told.

There's no One True Way to run any setting. Those people fail at Refereeing 101 and at Game Development 101;).
Refereeing: Since none of them is MAR Barker, obviously they're running it wrong.
Game development: Don't tell me how I should play. You might make polite suggestions. Then give me the setting and system material, and "unleash the Referees of War"!


I think this is very true, as well. It's what works for a GM and the players.

Me too! And one of my players just told me "Tekumel sounds like fun, from what you've described to me".
I guess I also commit the crime of using well-researched settings in a fun way...:p


Heresy!!! Heresy!!! :)

But what are supposed to do the people that don't fit said description;)?

No idea. No idea at all.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 19, 2016, 04:32:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898744
None of it. Their belief - and this is from one of the meetings I sat through - is that purchasing a Tekumel product is simply a lease or something, and that they retain "creative jurisdiction" over the IP at all times; individual games and campaigns are subject to their oversight and review. This is the same crowd who thought that a monthly fee for people to play would be a good thing; pay your $10 - $25 a month fee, and you would be given "Official, Authorized, and Approved" status from them. This may be why they were so hot to make sure that Gary Con had to post Official Notices at the convention that any games we were running in the aborted Tekumel room were "Unoffical, Unauthorized, and Unapproved" by them.

Now, my General, last time I looked you had a few brain cells that rubbed together in your noggin. Use your innate business sense and tell me, what effect these poster-sized notices at the convention would have had on the gaming public? And on the reputation of Tekumel? And, for that matter, on them?

If I was truly the horrible ogre I've been made out to be (along with the wife and daughters), I would have gone and done the convention and made damn sure that these posters were very obviously displayed, in total compliance with their orders. What do you think the result would have been, my General?
I'm almost sorry you didn't do exactly that;).
Business sense has nothing to do with that.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;898748
From AsenRG:
Hope your "Net1" resolves them soon:)!


The problem seems to be on the service provider's end; our connection is not delivering the full rate we're paying for. I'm limited to posts and e-mails in off-peak periods, as the 'pipe' doesn;t seem big enough for the traffic volume on offer. There's an apartment building next door that may share the node, so that may be the issue...
Yeah, I just used the name of my service provider:).

Quote
You have the patience of a saint (a saint that's not Boris I Mihail).
Which is to say, I'd have probably booted him earlier.


You're not the only one who's said that; Eldest Daughter said the same - right about the time she showed off her version of 'club wear' for the first time. I suggested that she take a jacket; she refused on fashion grounds, and I got a call very late that night asking if I could being a wrap or something to her at the club, as it was indeed a cold night. I brought her the mighty and powerfully warm boat cloak that the Missus had made me, so Eldest looked quite dramatic and was quite warm... :)
OK, that is a great story:D!

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No surprise. I learned quite a bit about "how games should go" from Gronan, back when he was Old Geezer, Bren, you yourself, Raggi (yes, the Lamentations of the Flame Princess's guy) and old-school Runequest/Traveller fans that aren't present on this forum. I'm still learning, too, but in a way, I'm following the same school.

And that, in my book, is what makes a good gamer - the ability to learn...
Indeed.
I'd say "a decent human being", instead of "gamer", but yeah.
Alas, the ability is conspicuously absent from some people.

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Can you make a youtube video of your overview? Pretty please? It might be helpful...

Oh! Never thought of that! I'll see what we can do...
We'll be waiting;).

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Well, I like "academic" approach...but that's because to me, that equates to well-researched. And I can use that to make a fun game; poorly-researched stuff needs me to lay it a finishing paint.

Your definition of 'academic' is the same as mine; the approach I'm talking about is to take up play time with lectures, such as at a recent convention where the Tekumel Expert GM lectured the players for one hour of a four hour time slot. Does this all the time, I'm told.
Academic explanation isn't supposed to be worse than no explanation at all...and wasting 25% of the session is exactly that.

Quote
Me too! And one of my players just told me "Tekumel sounds like fun, from what you've described to me".
I guess I also commit the crime of using well-researched settings in a fun way...:p


Heresy!!! Heresy!!! :)
I've always been less than conventional.

Quote
But what are supposed to do the people that don't fit said description;)?

No idea. No idea at all.
Well, after some deliberation - they could form a clique, study the matter, and then try to explain it to others, in order to get some payoff for the time spent studying;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 19, 2016, 05:54:13 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898742
Well, then you're a heretic too. As Gen. George Pickett remarked when somebody asked him why his attack that hot summer day at Gettysburg had failed, "I always thought that the Yankees had something to do with it." It is indeed madness, and where we are today with Tekumel is a direct byproduct of the groundwork laid by these people in the middle 1990s. Elitism has been their 'business
model' for something like twenty years, and we've seen the results.  Which, I think, is a pity; Phil's astounding creation deserves better.

Anybody got a question about Tekumel? This is getting me blood pressure up, again... :( Sorry...


On my honor Lord Chirine, I will never mention that "monster" again...I will try to submit some new questions, but I have been unable to do any Tekumel related reading as of late.

Be well uncle.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on May 19, 2016, 07:22:53 PM
What other underground structures besides tubeways (hyperloops) were constructed by the ancients, or others, that characters might stumble across?

How wrong would it be to play EPT in a Sword & Blaster style?
In other words, how common could you make high tech toys be for the characters without breaking the setting?

What about inter-dimensional beings?
Would adventures focusing on plugging the "leaks" of such beings into the world be reasonable?
In other words, Man of God on steroids.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Spinachcat on May 19, 2016, 08:56:53 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898621
I know little cheats like using 36" lengths of music wire to make tall spindly structures that are sturdy enough to use.  I'd love to have Jedi fighting on an inch-wide railless walkway four feet above the table.


That sounds awesome. I'd love for you to start a thread about your "little cheats"!


Quote from: chirine ba kal;898641
The one who runs his How To Play Tekumel The Right Way lectures at game conventions. The one who insists that GMs and players have to learn Phil's languages to be able to play in Tekumel.


Gonna borrow Shemek's colorful term here. I met a few of these "utter dickweevils" at West Coast cons way back when and they completely turned me off Tekumel which had seemed really interesting.


Quote from: chirine ba kal;898644
Well, yes; this. Much as I love games and models, they are an issue to transport. What I have found interesting in my 'outreach' to games is that the idea of getting together at somebody's house for an afternoon or evening of fun is just not there any more. It's either at a convention or the local FLGs, or nothing. So, for me, it's nothing.


Its very worth it to cultivate a good gaming crew, but its an effort to find good people.


Quote from: chirine ba kal;898742
Anybody got a question about Tekumel? This is getting me blood pressure up, again... :( Sorry...


Clearly the "official" Tekumel IP has been compromised by the fuckmortons and dickweevils. However, do you believe there is value in a "knock off" setting or new setting "inspired by" the same original sources that MAR Barker enjoyed?

AKA, do you think there is a market for a new, Not-Tekumel Tekumel that scratches the same gaming itch? And if so, would that be something you would enjoy creating?  

Also, have you checked out RPGPundit's Arrows of Indra? I'd be interested to hear how his setting compares to Tekumel as they are both "non-medieval European fantasy" settings.


Quote from: AsenRG;898712
Can you make a youtube video of your overview? Pretty please? It might be helpful...:)


I'd be very interested too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 19, 2016, 09:58:02 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;898813
How wrong would it be to play EPT in a Sword & Blaster style?
In other words, how common could you make high tech toys be for the characters without breaking the setting?

THERE IS NO WRONG!  * whap whap whap whap whap whap whap *

"Eyes" are high tech toys.  Change the casing and the "Eye of Raging Power" becomes a Klingon disruptor.  Simple, n'est ce pas?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 19, 2016, 09:59:07 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;898828

Gonna borrow Shemek's colorful term here. I met a few of these "utter dickweevils" at West Coast cons way back when and they completely turned me off Tekumel which had seemed really interesting.


Actually I "borrowed" it  from Gronan. ;) It really does describe these miscreants quite well.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 19, 2016, 10:01:51 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898742

Anybody got a question about Tekumel? This is getting me blood pressure up, again... :( Sorry...


Tell the story of how Qutmu got impaled.  That always cheers you up!
:D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 19, 2016, 10:08:48 PM
Chirine,

Some questions for you so we can get back to more pleasant subjects, and forget the antics of the Tekumel Weenies.
A. What else can you tell us about some of your more exotic or “remote areas” encounters in Phil’s game? For example, I understand that you visited the Palace of Bassa, King of the Black Ssu, and the City of The Red Tiled Roofs, and the military installation at the South Pole to name just a few. Also, do I remember you saying that a group of Phil’s players traveled to one of the automated stations in orbit around Tekumel? Are there any other places that you may not have journeyed to, but have some inside information on? Any details would be appreciated, such as architecture, unique inhabitants, etc.
B. As far as “game canon” goes what is the current status of Captain Harchar, et.al.,  The Glorious General,  Karin Missum, Baron Ald and Lord Fu Shi’I, etc? Are they still alive in the Tékumel universe? Have they retired and made way for the next generation?
C. Did you ever encounter any of the characters from Phil’s first gaming group from the 50’s as NPC’s? Was the Baron Ald one such former PC turned NPC?
D. If Tsolyanu is like Moghul India, or Ancient Egypt,  what would you recommend as a good source of inspiration for Mu'ugalavya? What type of images would be suitable to show to new players in order to establish the feel of the place?


Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 19, 2016, 10:17:03 PM
Chirine,

Here's another one the Firu baYeker may have told.

 The Wax Crocodile

(KING KHUFU sat to hear tales told by his sons regarding the wonders of other days and the doings of magicians. The Prince Khafra stood before him and related the ancient story of the wax crocodile.)

Once upon a time a Pharaoh went towards the temple of the god Ptah. His counsellors and servants accompanied him. It chanced that he paid a visit to the villa of the chief scribe, behind which there was a garden with a stately summer house and a broad artificial lake.

Among those who followed Pharaoh was a handsome youth, and the scribe's wife beheld him with love. Soon afterwards she sent gifts unto him, and they had secret meetings. They spent a day in the summer house and feasted there, and in the evening the youth bathed in the lake.

The chief butler then went to his master the scribe and informed him what had come to pass. The scribe bade the servant to bring a certain magic box, and when he received it he made a small wax crocodile, over which he muttered a spell. He placed it in the hands of the butler, saying: "Cast this image into the lake behind the youth when next he bathes himself "

On another day when the scribe dwelt with Pharaoh, the lovers were together in the summer house, and at eventide the youth went into the lake. The butler stole through the garden, and stealthily he cast into the water the wax image, which was immediately given life. It became a great crocodile that seized the youth suddenly and took him away.

Seven days passed, and then the scribe spoke to the Pharaoh regarding the wonder which had been done, and made request that His Majesty should accompany him to his villa. The Pharaoh did so, and when they both stood beside the lake in the garden the scribe spoke magic words, bidding the crocodile to appear.

As he commanded, so did it do. The great reptile came out of the water carrying the youth in its jaws.

The scribe said: "Lo! it shall do whatever I command to be done."

Said the Pharaoh: "Bid the crocodile to return at once to the lake."

Ere he did that, the scribe touched it, and immediately it became a small image of wax again. The Pharaoh was filled with wonder, and the scribe related unto him all that had happened, while the youth stood waiting.

Said His Majesty unto the crocodile: "Seize the wrongdoer." The wax image was again given life and, clutching the youth, leaped into the lake and disappeared. Nor was it ever seen after that.

Then Pharaoh gave command that the wife of the scribe should be seized. On the north side of the house she was bound to a stake and burned alive, and what remained of her was thrown into the Nile.

Such was the tale told by Khafra. Khufu was well pleased and caused offerings of food and refreshment to be placed in the tombs of the Pharaoh and his wise servant.


Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 20, 2016, 12:09:24 AM
This isn't a Tekumel question, but it was funny at the time.

We were playing Tractics.  I was one of the Americans and Tom was one of the Germans.  I'm pretty sure you were the referee, because we had a boatload of infantry... like, a company each.

(In Tractics, if you have time you can set up "ranging stakes" for artillery and then direct your fire by calling range off the stakes.)

We had set up range stakes, and as Americans in late 44 we had God's own lot of 60mm mortars.  For those not familiar with Tractics, the 60mm mortar has a 1/2" burst radius.  You have to be very accurate or very lucky.

Well, Tom advances a company of German infantry well dispersed, but still close enough to support each other.  A really nice advance, frankly.

But, you see, I'm very, very good at estimating ranges.

At the end of Tom's movement I opened up with all my 60mm mortars.  And even though his infantry were 2 or 3 inches apart, I proceed to slaughter them.  I was so accurate in my fire that I was literally dropping rounds onto individual German soldiers' little punkin haids.  I could have been firing 60mm round stones and I would have been braining the troops; I didn't even need the shell fragments.

At the end one turn of fire as poor Tom stood there with his mouth open, there was one squad left out of an entire German infantry company.  ( I miswrote one number.)

Good times, good times.

Anyway, do you remember any more about that battle?  My memory ain't what it usedta was.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 01:30:03 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;898791
I'm almost sorry you didn't do exactly that;).
Business sense has nothing to do with that.


Yeah, I just used the name of my service provider:).


OK, that is a great story:D!


I'd say "a decent human being", instead of "gamer", but yeah.
Alas, the ability is conspicuously absent from some people.


We'll be waiting;).


Academic explanation isn't supposed to be worse than no explanation at all...and wasting 25% of the session is exactly that.


I've always been less than conventional.


Well, after some deliberation - they could form a clique, study the matter, and then try to explain it to others, in order to get some payoff for the time spent studying;).


Agreed, on all points!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 01:34:25 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;898803
On my honor Lord Chirine, I will never mention that "monster" again...I will try to submit some new questions, but I have been unable to do any Tekumel related reading as of late.

Be well uncle.

H:0)


Thank you! I love to talk about Phil's creation, but I am not keen on discussing all of the utter crap that has been pulled over the decades. I promised my eldest, when we got her, that we would never, ever lie to her if she would not lie to us; we made the same deal with the following daughters as well. I promised Tekumel fans the same thing when I got back into gaming, and I've tried very hard to keep to that ever since. I will try to answer any and all questions as honestly as I can, based on what I know, but some of the answers are not very 'comfortable'; I had the same issue when I was interviewed for a documentary. The truth is what I believ in, no matter how painful it might be to me personally.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 01:48:08 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;898813
What other underground structures besides tubeways (hyperloops) were constructed by the ancients, or others, that characters might stumble across?

How wrong would it be to play EPT in a Sword & Blaster style?
In other words, how common could you make high tech toys be for the characters without breaking the setting?

What about inter-dimensional beings?
Would adventures focusing on plugging the "leaks" of such beings into the world be reasonable?
In other words, Man of God on steroids.
=


Right. We saw all sorts of complexes; command and control bunkers, weapons emplacements - the huge battleship-sized ones that defend Avanthar still work, and are still programmed to shoot at air- or spaceships that fly too close and don't have the correct identification codes - spaceports, repair facilties, and just about anything else you might need to keep a space-faring civilization running.

Okay, I'll bite. what's the difference between "Sword and Blaster" and "Sword and Planet"? I hold that Tekumel was not, and never really has been, a 'fantasy' setting; Gary insisted on calling it that because he felt that doing any different would confuse the then-new D&D audience. based on Phil's own works for Tekumel, I'd call it the same as his inspiration: "Sword and Planet". I'm asking because I am no familiar with "Sword and Blaster" as a term or game style.

Having said that, we usually carried quite a lot of ancient devices around with us, but we were always off on adventures on the edges of the world. We had a lot more opportunity to aquire and keep theses things; once we'd get back to the central empire, we'd often 'donate' stuff to our clans and temples to keep them happy. This was, in game terms, a way to keep things down to a dull roar, and the game play more enjoyable as it created the need for more adventures. Me, I'd keep the party to an Eye or two each, with the very occasional 'special' as a goodie. It makes the players think, not just 'push the button', and is more of a challenge to them. And, of course, (like Phil did) I tailor the threats to their skills and weapons - more goodies, more deadly peril!

major ones, rarely; minor ones, all the time.

Yes. Did several of them myself; Blackmoor had a habit of leaking through, both ways, and required constant attention to the inter-planar fabric. Some very odd visitors, over the years.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 02:00:00 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;898828

Gonna borrow Shemek's colorful term here. I met a few of these "utter dickweevils" at West Coast cons way back when and they completely turned me off Tekumel which had seemed really interesting.
 
Clearly the "official" Tekumel IP has been compromised by the fuckmortons and dickweevils. However, do you believe there is value in a "knock off" setting or new setting "inspired by" the same original sources that MAR Barker enjoyed?

AKA, do you think there is a market for a new, Not-Tekumel Tekumel that scratches the same gaming itch? And if so, would that be something you would enjoy creating?  

Also, have you checked out RPGPundit's Arrows of Indra? I'd be interested to hear how his setting compares to Tekumel as they are both "non-medieval European fantasy" settings.

I'd be very interested too.


In order:

Yep. I've heard this kind of thing from a lot of people, over the years. Tekumel's more devout fans are one of it's biggest problems.

No. See also Harn and Jorune, which their creators told me that they'd specifically based on Tekumel. Neither had a lot of popular appeal; the vast majority of gamers simply don't want to have to deal with a 'complicated' and/or 'difficult' world setting. Somebody could do it, but they'd loose their shirts in the process. The one and only exception that I would make to this statement would be a Barsoom-based game, an that's not going to happen because of the IP fees involved. There are several very nice not-Barsoom sets of rules out there, and I'd look in that direction.

No. I think it would be a huge mistake, myself, for the reasons I just mentioned. The gamers will not buy it. And no, absolutely not; I will not make the mistake of getting involved in the business side of the house that I did in 1978 - much as I liked Dave and Phil, it was simply the one and only choice in my long and busy life that I truly regret.

Yes; I bought a copy when it came out - see also the weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth when I told Pundit that I thought that "Arrows" would have been something Phil would have liked, and that it could be used pretty much 'as is' for running Tekumel. They are both 'India', and have a lot of the very same assumptions and basic world-setting attributes.

I'll see what I can do. Suffering a lower back injury at the moment, which has made my vacation a misery.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 02:20:36 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898848
Tell the story of how Qutmu got impaled.  That always cheers you up!
:D


Well, all right. And it still brings a smile to my cherubic little face, too... :)

So, we're stitting around at the Siege of Sunraya, when we notice that dear old General Qutmu hi Tizena has a supply convoy passing by. A lot of the carts have boxes of crossbow quarrels in them, the labels say, address to his Legion of the Scales of Brown. Big boxes, too. About six foot long, and about three feet wide and tall. Lots of nervous Sarku priests in the escort, too. The Glorious General looks over at me and asks "What's so interesting , there, Chirine?" and I points out to my general that Scales of Brown are a heavy infantry legion, not crossbowmen. The Glorious General picks yet another sand-flea off his armor, and we amble over to the road to have a gander at the boxes. The Wormy Boys are all twitchy, and the Glorious General invites one of them to open one of the boxes for him. The priest starts making excuses, so the Glorious General has his guards open it. There's an Undead trooper of the legion inside, and we wind up arresting everybody for violation of the Great Concordat. Off we go to Prince Mirusiya, to report all this, and pandemonium breaks out; all and sundry drop in on Qutmu for a friendly visit, and we all arrive just in time to see him using Undead in open battle. Lots more arresting followed by sundry and summary impalements.

It's all in "Flamesong", if I recall, and our part will be in my book. Volume Four, if I recall.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 02:30:52 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;898850
Chirine,

Some questions for you so we can get back to more pleasant subjects, and forget the antics of the Tekumel Weenies.
A. What else can you tell us about some of your more exotic or “remote areas” encounters in Phil’s game? For example, I understand that you visited the Palace of Bassa, King of the Black Ssu, and the City of The Red Tiled Roofs, and the military installation at the South Pole to name just a few. Also, do I remember you saying that a group of Phil’s players traveled to one of the automated stations in orbit around Tekumel? Are there any other places that you may not have journeyed to, but have some inside information on? Any details would be appreciated, such as architecture, unique inhabitants, etc.
B. As far as “game canon” goes what is the current status of Captain Harchar, et.al.,  The Glorious General,  Karin Missum, Baron Ald and Lord Fu Shi’I, etc? Are they still alive in the Tékumel universe? Have they retired and made way for the next generation?
C. Did you ever encounter any of the characters from Phil’s first gaming group from the 50’s as NPC’s? Was the Baron Ald one such former PC turned NPC?
D. If Tsolyanu is like Moghul India, or Ancient Egypt,  what would you recommend as a good source of inspiration for Mu'ugalavya? What type of images would be suitable to show to new players in order to establish the feel of the place?


Shemek.

A. Way too long for a post here; you'll have to be patient, as I will Reveal All. There's just a lot of detail... :)
Yes, we did go to Kashi, Do not punch any buttons. Thank you.

B. Some are, some are not. Tis current time on Tekumel is some forty years after we started playing - old age is a major issue, these days! :) Again, this is going to be a very long subject to try to tackle.

C. No. They were not a role-playing group; it was much more like 'Risk', then anything else, if the copy of their rules that I have is any indication. Having said that, we did meet a number of their descendants in our adventures. The Shipali clan of Kerunan is still very active, and still pretty powerful. Maybe. There are still a few secrets left... :)

D. Ming or Qing China. Lots of officials, and everything gets done in quadruplicate - one copy for each of the Four Palaces. Images? Let me think about this, and get back to you; I lean to classical China, myself, as they are pretty formal and 'disciplined' in their architecture. I'd do a Google search for 'classical Chinese architecture', myself.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 02:31:43 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;898851
Chirine,

Here's another one the Firu baYeker may have told.

 The Wax Crocodile

(KING KHUFU sat to hear tales told by his sons regarding the wonders of other days and the doings of magicians. The Prince Khafra stood before him and related the ancient story of the wax crocodile.)

Once upon a time a Pharaoh went towards the temple of the god Ptah. His counsellors and servants accompanied him. It chanced that he paid a visit to the villa of the chief scribe, behind which there was a garden with a stately summer house and a broad artificial lake.

Among those who followed Pharaoh was a handsome youth, and the scribe's wife beheld him with love. Soon afterwards she sent gifts unto him, and they had secret meetings. They spent a day in the summer house and feasted there, and in the evening the youth bathed in the lake.

The chief butler then went to his master the scribe and informed him what had come to pass. The scribe bade the servant to bring a certain magic box, and when he received it he made a small wax crocodile, over which he muttered a spell. He placed it in the hands of the butler, saying: "Cast this image into the lake behind the youth when next he bathes himself "

On another day when the scribe dwelt with Pharaoh, the lovers were together in the summer house, and at eventide the youth went into the lake. The butler stole through the garden, and stealthily he cast into the water the wax image, which was immediately given life. It became a great crocodile that seized the youth suddenly and took him away.

Seven days passed, and then the scribe spoke to the Pharaoh regarding the wonder which had been done, and made request that His Majesty should accompany him to his villa. The Pharaoh did so, and when they both stood beside the lake in the garden the scribe spoke magic words, bidding the crocodile to appear.

As he commanded, so did it do. The great reptile came out of the water carrying the youth in its jaws.

The scribe said: "Lo! it shall do whatever I command to be done."

Said the Pharaoh: "Bid the crocodile to return at once to the lake."

Ere he did that, the scribe touched it, and immediately it became a small image of wax again. The Pharaoh was filled with wonder, and the scribe related unto him all that had happened, while the youth stood waiting.

Said His Majesty unto the crocodile: "Seize the wrongdoer." The wax image was again given life and, clutching the youth, leaped into the lake and disappeared. Nor was it ever seen after that.

Then Pharaoh gave command that the wife of the scribe should be seized. On the north side of the house she was bound to a stake and burned alive, and what remained of her was thrown into the Nile.

Such was the tale told by Khafra. Khufu was well pleased and caused offerings of food and refreshment to be placed in the tombs of the Pharaoh and his wise servant.


Shemek.

Yes!!! Wonderful!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 02:45:17 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898859
This isn't a Tekumel question, but it was funny at the time.

We were playing Tractics.  I was one of the Americans and Tom was one of the Germans.  I'm pretty sure you were the referee, because we had a boatload of infantry... like, a company each.

(In Tractics, if you have time you can set up "ranging stakes" for artillery and then direct your fire by calling range off the stakes.)

We had set up range stakes, and as Americans in late 44 we had God's own lot of 60mm mortars.  For those not familiar with Tractics, the 60mm mortar has a 1/2" burst radius.  You have to be very accurate or very lucky.

Well, Tom advances a company of German infantry well dispersed, but still close enough to support each other.  A really nice advance, frankly.

But, you see, I'm very, very good at estimating ranges.

At the end of Tom's movement I opened up with all my 60mm mortars.  And even though his infantry were 2 or 3 inches apart, I proceed to slaughter them.  I was so accurate in my fire that I was literally dropping rounds onto individual German soldiers' little punkin haids.  I could have been firing 60mm round stones and I would have been braining the troops; I didn't even need the shell fragments.

At the end one turn of fire as poor Tom stood there with his mouth open, there was one squad left out of an entire German infantry company.  ( I miswrote one number.)

Good times, good times.

Anyway, do you remember any more about that battle?  My memory ain't what it usedta was.

Very late '44, Hurtgern Forest. Tom was being his usual self, i.e. an I'm better then you snob, and wanted to prove that he could beat the great Gronan in any game possible. So, I set up a very straight infantry meets infantry in the forest game, with a couple of vehicles in support. Nothing too heavy; this is going to be a straightforward infantry fight, which was a little unusual for us at that time. In theory Tom has a huge edge, due to each German squad having an MG34 or MG42, so he has a really good chance of winning if he fights a historical battle and defends his position and lets the Yanks come to him. The Americans have less firepower in the squads, but the US company does have all it's organic support units - like the mortars. The Germans also have theirs, but Tom was famous for using them as line infantry and getting them killed off for no good reason. The Germans had 81s, I think, vs. the US 60s, so Tom should have had an easy time of it.

But, then, there's me. I set up the game so that Tom had the better troops and gear, to make up for his - shall we say, - lack of tactical ability, and Gronan had the weaker troops to compensate for his greater tactical abilities. I also wanted to keep him from getting bored - making sure that everyone, including the GM / Referee, stays engaged and challenged.

As Gronan said, Tom got et for lunch. Nice advance, right out of the book, but he never got his mortar section set up and into action, or his machine guns. he walked his company right into the kill zone, and Gronan politely killed them for him. I ran out of cotton balls to mark the explosions with.

All of this - and here's the Tekumel connection! - is why I included estimating ranges in my miniatures rules for the artillery. It made for much more fun games, especially when the player missed and the rock / bolt went 'elsewhere'... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on May 20, 2016, 06:44:59 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898892
All of this - and here's the Tekumel connection! - is why I included estimating ranges in my miniatures rules for the artillery. It made for much more fun games, especially when the player missed and the rock / bolt went 'elsewhere'... :)

Like the Glorious General I have the knack of estimating ranges very well indeed. No-one used to like playing age of sail games involving ranges with me and similarly space battles (that often play like naval battles) went the same way. I love those plot and move games as they always work to my advantage. It might be the fact that I trained as a mechanical engineer in my youth that helped that skill.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 20, 2016, 07:00:49 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898889

D. Ming or Qing China. Lots of officials, and everything gets done in quadruplicate - one copy for each of the Four Palaces. Images? Let me think about this, and get back to you; I lean to classical China, myself, as they are pretty formal and 'disciplined' in their architecture. I'd do a Google search for 'classical Chinese architecture', myself.

Uncle,

Might you be so kind as to make recomendations for the other Empires...? We may have gone into it in the past, but my skull is thick. Besides, we must keep our elders busy...

Much Thanks,

H;0)

PS These kinds of posts, I find most helpful!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on May 20, 2016, 07:18:58 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898882
Okay, I'll bite. what's the difference between "Sword and Blaster" and "Sword and Planet"? I hold that Tekumel was not, and never really has been, a 'fantasy' setting; Gary insisted on calling it that because he felt that doing any different would confuse the then-new D&D audience. based on Phil's own works for Tekumel, I'd call it the same as his inspiration: "Sword and Planet". I'm asking because I am no familiar with "Sword and Blaster" as a term or game style.


I'm not good with these genre names it seems.
I meant games with a mix of ancient and future tech (like Gama World for example).
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 20, 2016, 09:57:22 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898892
All of this - and here's the Tekumel connection! - is why I included estimating ranges in my miniatures rules for the artillery. It made for much more fun games, especially when the player missed and the rock / bolt went 'elsewhere'... :)

Oh, ain't it the truth!

I sometimes worried that it wasn't realistic.  A chap here in town is a former US Marine, and he was telling me about one of the guys in his squad who was a dead shot with the modern 60mm mortar with the trigger.  As in, first round on the target every time, at 1000 to 1500 yard ranges.

So estimating ranges by naked eye is more important than I thought!

Comes in handy in "Don't Give up the Ship," too; Mike Carr has complimented me more than once at GaryCon for my ship handling.  
(For those not familiar with DGUTS, range estimation is used in movement, not fire.  But when I tuck my frigate in behind the enemy at point blank range for a rake, it pays off.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Omega on May 20, 2016, 12:51:39 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898742
Anybody got a question about Tekumel? This is getting me blood pressure up, again... :( Sorry...


If you know. What was the genesis of the Adventures on Tekumel series? How did it end up being a Fighting Fantasy style paragraph/storybook game?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 20, 2016, 01:37:07 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898704
Gods.  What part of "commercial product for sale" do they not understand?
Three parts: the front part, the back part, and the part in between.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;898742
As Gen. George Pickett remarked when somebody asked him why his attack that hot summer day at Gettysburg had failed, "I always thought that the Yankees had something to do with it."
That quote must annoy the heck out of the romance of the lost cause guys.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 03:34:53 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;898917
Uncle,

Might you be so kind as to make recomendations for the other Empires...? We may have gone into it in the past, but my skull is thick. Besides, we must keep our elders busy...

Much Thanks,

H;0)

PS These kinds of posts, I find most helpful!!!

So do I.

Tsolyanu - Mughal India, with a strong dash of the Byzantine Empire;
Yan Kor - Powerful clans, many city-states: Scotland or Afghanistan;
Salarvya - Many feudal families that have trouble getting anything done: Medieval France, Italy, or Germany
Mu'uglavya - Powerful officials, very formal: Ming or Qing Imperial China
Livyanu - Powerful temples, theocracy: Ancient Egypt - see also R. E. Howard's Stygia, which may have inspired Phil.

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 03:39:02 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;898920
I'm not good with these genre names it seems.
I meant games with a mix of ancient and future tech (like Gama World for example).
=

Ah, gotcha! I'd rate "Gamma World" at the 'high end' of the genre, as the emphasis is on the hard SF elements. Barsoom would be next, with high tech but with a less strong emphasis on same; Tekumel is a lot softer on the hard science - it's there, but not something that the common people would see or deal with. That's the job of the people adventuring, which is why the clans / temples/ etc. send them out in the first place. If you hand out with the Undying Wizards, like we did on occasion, you wind up using a lot of high tech like spaceships, aircars, and energy weapons. We have no idea how the stuff worlks, or how to fix it when it breaks, but that's the way it is.

Does this help, at all?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 03:53:06 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;898942
Oh, ain't it the truth!

I sometimes worried that it wasn't realistic.  A chap here in town is a former US Marine, and he was telling me about one of the guys in his squad who was a dead shot with the modern 60mm mortar with the trigger.  As in, first round on the target every time, at 1000 to 1500 yard ranges.

So estimating ranges by naked eye is more important than I thought!

Comes in handy in "Don't Give up the Ship," too; Mike Carr has complimented me more than once at GaryCon for my ship handling.  
(For those not familiar with DGUTS, range estimation is used in movement, not fire.  But when I tuck my frigate in behind the enemy at point blank range for a rake, it pays off.)

Same here; I knew an artillery Lieutenant who was a dead shot with a 105 howitzer, at anything from 2500 to 7500 meters. If she could see it, she could hit it, and hit it with all the guns in the battery - she could do the offsets and corrections in her head, call the numbers to the guns, and you'd see six rounds all land in a group that was maybe ten meters in diameter. Her gunners adored her, and she and they never got thirsty. They were the preferred battery of choice in the brigade, and were always being requested by other units.

So - how do you simulate this in a game? More rules? Or just let the players learn how to do it?

Back in Ye Olden Dayes, we just learned how to do it. These days? My perception is that you'd have to have a 200+ page rules set, with lots of supplements and special dice. And yes, I'm in cranky old man mode, today.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on May 20, 2016, 04:57:43 PM
You say tech stuff is something that the common folk would see. Are they even aware of it? Or is it quasi mythical to them? How about magic? The basic healing spells.The spells listed in various editions that could really be a boon to a farmer. Do most common folk ever see even basic stuff like that?
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899046
I'm in cranky old man mode, today.
I don't want your blood pressure to go up, but I actually enjoy cranky old man mode. It is cathartic.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 04:59:59 PM
Quote from: Omega;899003
If you know. What was the genesis of the Adventures on Tekumel series? How did it end up being a Fighting Fantasy style paragraph/storybook game?

Well! Let's kick open this can of worms, shall we?

Oddly enough, I was just talking to Neal Cauley about this yesterday; I was visiting Phoenix games, and Neal happened to be in. (He's sold the shop to some friends and retired.)

They say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Gaming here in the Twin Cities, back before the Internet, used to lag about a decade behind the rest of the game industry. Very few local gamers would travel to game conventions like Gen Con or Origins, so gamers would be exposed to new ideas only through the various local retail outlets - bookstores, mostly. On top of this, Phil's game group of the time was even more isolated, with very few of the players being connected to the local game scene or the hobby in general. (Keep in mind that they viewed themselves as a social and gaming elite, and experts in everything.) Dave Arneson once told Phil that this was not a good thing: "Phil, you can't design games in a vacuum." Also about his time, Dave had left Different Worlds, and Phil had severed his connection with them as well, both because Dave wasn't out on the West Coast and because Tadashi-san had learned (the hard way) that Phil's back list of old publications simply didn't sell without a very strong and active marketing effort or active fan base. Sitting in Phil's basement and complaining didn't move the merchandise.

So, one of the courtiers showed Phil some of the Steve Jackson books, and Phil's eyes lit up with dollar signs - if that jerk in Texas could make loads and loads of money with this kind of crap, then so could he. What we had all been asking him for was very different; 'Adventures on Tekumel' as just that; introductory adventures that could be picked up by anybody and played as a way to get players and GMs interested in the world-setting. Instead, the books' format was copied and in Phil's idea of what the game hobby should be like. By this time, Dave Arneson had gotten connected with the parent company of what would become TOME, who then became the publisher. TOME had no experience whatsoever in the RPG hobby and industry, and relied entirely on Dave's advice and Phil's reputation with EPT.

It wasn't a happy thing. Phil, as usual, didn't have any editing or playtesting done by 'outsiders'; it was all done internally, by the people who had a vested interest in the thing getting published, and the series also fell afoul of the 'politics around the Petal Throne' as to who Phil's 'favorite of the month' was gong to be. The books duly came out, with nice production values and decently-sized print runs, and didn't sell at all well; The lack of editing had produced a set of books that had rules that didn't mesh very well with each other, and Neal was called in to write something that would tie the books together and produce a viable RPG for Tekumel. The result was "Gardasiyal", which TOME thought was a complete in the box RPG - which it wasn't; one had to find and buy all of the other books in order to actually play the game. No amount of good production values will paper over a badly thought-out specification; the 'installed base' of the Adventures books mitigated against what should have been done, scrap the books and reuse the material in a decently edited set of RPG rules. And, of course, by this time TOME was running out of money for Tekumel stuff, so the actual product quality - which would have looked good in 1980 - was not up to the standards of the middle 1990s.

In a nutshell; the Adventures books and their follow on boxed set was the last gasp of the 'internal production system' out at Phil's, often referred to by the technical term 'Anything you can do, we can do better!'

The reviews were not kind.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 05:03:13 PM
Quote from: Bren;899016
Three parts: the front part, the back part, and the part in between.

That quote must annoy the heck out of the romance of the lost cause guys.

True! :)

It did, it still does, and it's all Longstreet's fault anyway.

Personally, I agree with what he said he told Lee, at the time: "Ain't no fifteen thousand men arrayed for battle gonna take that position." He was right.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 20, 2016, 05:28:52 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899046
So - how do you simulate this in a game? More rules? Or just let the players learn how to do it?
Well it depends on who it is that is supposed to be good at estimating ranges.

If it's the character, in Honor+Intrigue it would be easy to mimic. I'd make a Boon: Estimate Range by Sight or maybe Boon: God's Gift to Gunners. The boon gives a bonus die to hit with direct and indirect artillery. The rest of the uncanny accuracy would be decent scores in Savvy the Ranged combat ability, and, points in one's career as a gunner/artilleryman.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 20, 2016, 05:29:44 PM
Quote from: Bren;899065
It depends who is supposed to be good at estimating ranges. The player or their character?

If the latter, in Honor+Intrigue it would be easy to mimic. I'd make a Boon: Estimate Range by Sight or maybe Boon: God's Gift to Gunners. The boon gives a bonus die to hit with direct and indirect artillery. The rest of the uncanny accuracy would be decent scores in Savvy the Ranged combat ability, and, points in one's career as a gunner/artilleryman.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 20, 2016, 05:33:10 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899040
So do I.

Tsolyanu - Mughal India, with a strong dash of the Byzantine Empire;
Yan Kor - Powerful clans, many city-states: Scotland or Afghanistan;
Salarvya - Many feudal families that have trouble getting anything done: Medieval France, Italy, or Germany
Mu'uglavya - Powerful officials, very formal: Ming or Qing Imperial China
Livyanu - Powerful temples, theocracy: Ancient Egypt - see also R. E. Howard's Stygia, which may have inspired Phil.

Does this help?


Yes, as always!!! Thank you.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 05:54:23 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;899055
You say tech stuff is something that the common folk would see. Are they even aware of it? Or is it quasi mythical to them? How about magic? The basic healing spells.The spells listed in various editions that could really be a boon to a farmer. Do most common folk ever see even basic stuff like that?

I don't want your blood pressure to go up, but I actually enjoy cranky old man mode. It is cathartic.

They'd see it in the hands of us noble folk, and maybe as a relic in the local temple. Yes, they're aware of it, just like we're aware of the Shroud of Turin. 'Magic', on the other hand, they'd see every day down the temple. You have it - a lot of the 'low level' spells would be seen in use by the local clergy in the annual round of seasonal rituals. "Blessing the crops" would involve a lot of ritual and ceremony, with the high point being the actual 'casting of a spell' by the local cleric. Done it myself, a number of times. The worshippers love it, and the round of the seasons goes on. (Ma'at, anyone?) As for a local healing spell, yes, you do see it happening, but it's not all that much of a 'high-level' spell and may or may not do the patient any good. It's all part of the expected 'bedside manner', though, and the actual healing is in the hands of the gods.

Thanks for the kind words! The injury to my lower back that I've been dealing with all week is much better, and I still have more then a week of vacation left! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 05:55:34 PM
Quote from: Bren;899065
Well it depends on who it is that is supposed to be good at estimating ranges.

If it's the character, in Honor+Intrigue it would be easy to mimic. I'd make a Boon: Estimate Range by Sight or maybe Boon: God's Gift to Gunners. The boon gives a bonus die to hit with direct and indirect artillery. The rest of the uncanny accuracy would be decent scores in Savvy the Ranged combat ability, and, points in one's career as a gunner/artilleryman.

Sounds good to me - just enough mechanics to get the job done, but not enough to bog down the game! Thank you!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 05:56:06 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;899069
Yes, as always!!! Thank you.

H:0)

You're welcome! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on May 20, 2016, 06:12:56 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899041
Ah, gotcha! I'd rate "Gamma World" at the 'high end' of the genre, as the emphasis is on the hard SF elements. Barsoom would be next, with high tech but with a less strong emphasis on same; Tekumel is a lot softer on the hard science - it's there, but not something that the common people would see or deal with. That's the job of the people adventuring, which is why the clans / temples/ etc. send them out in the first place. If you hand out with the Undying Wizards, like we did on occasion, you wind up using a lot of high tech like spaceships, aircars, and energy weapons. We have no idea how the stuff worlks, or how to fix it when it breaks, but that's the way it is.

Does this help, at all?

I was thinking closer to Barsoom than to Gama World but I would think "In My Tekumel" that you could move the needle either way and still be good.

I guess the taking the stuff off their hands would need to be handled carefully?
How did that work (or not work) for the games you know about?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 06:14:34 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;899055
You say tech stuff is something that the common folk would see. Are they even aware of it? Or is it quasi mythical to them? How about magic? The basic healing spells.The spells listed in various editions that could really be a boon to a farmer. Do most common folk ever see even basic stuff like that?

Thought about this some more, and I'd like to elaborate on it if I may.

So we arrive in this little village out in rural Tsolyanu, get the usual decent reception from the headman, and he mentions that there's a person sick in the village. First thing I do is inquire if there's a local priest, and if there is I call on them to get their local information. Then, we all go pay the patient a visit; the noble person makes sure to respect the local cleric, no matter how low their level they might be; you have been called into the case as a consultant, and to give your 'expert advice' - not to throw your weight around and look like an idiot. You do what you can, in consultation with the local cleric, and see if you can help. Phil's usual rule on healing spells was that you had to do it within 24 hours of the original injury, otherwise it didn't 'take'. This, we felt, was a really good bit of play balance, because if we didn't have the 'first aid kit' in the party, it would go badly; this limit is how my leaden alter ego got his bashed-up nose - it got broken in a fight, and he didn't get to a healer in time.

So, you'd come in and allow as how you'd seen a very similar and equally as rare case in Bey Su, discuss the case in detail, and help out the first-level village cleric with your fourth or fifth level spell; it'll maybe do some good for the patient, and the villagers would be talking about it for the next decade about how the mighty wizard fixed Chagresh's broken shoulder. A noble person would also make sure to give the local cleric a donation - like a couple of silver pieces; remember that is is out in the sticks, and the locals may never have seen a gold kaitar! - 'for their prayers' and for the further care of the patient. One may never see this village again, but it's the noble thing to do.

And it's all based on Phil's travels in rural India; he loved to tell about the time he was called upon as the great scholar, Barker Sahib, to look in on a patient by the local cleric and offer his learned opinion. Great amounts of incense, lots and lots of very learned discussions, much citing of the classic medical texts, and Phil suggested a new miracle drug that might help - the local cleric agreed, and Phil provided some of his aspirins. The patient felt a lot better, the local cleric was much enhanced in his prestige by his consulting the famous scholar, Phil got the royal treatment in all the villages, and all was good.

Does any of this help explain things for you? Wonderful question!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 06:26:25 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;899078
I was thinking closer to Barsoom than to Gama World but I would think "In My Tekumel" that you could move the needle either way and still be good.

I guess the taking the stuff off their hands would need to be handled carefully?
How did that work (or not work) for the games you know about?
=

Oh, right; good point. Barsoom is indeed very close to Tekumel; we don't usually have the tech stuff as much to hand as they do in Helium, but in some spots we do.

If you needed to get the stuff away from the players for in-game reasons, there are all sorts of 'low-impact' ways to do it. First and most common was that the thing simply stops working, and you wind up donating it to a temple or clan as a gift. It's really old stuff, after all, and is occasionally going to fail. Usually at the worst possible moment, too. Secondly, they sell it for the money; PCs always need money, and this is a good way to get it. Ditto for patrons, too; Lady Mnella in Jakalla regularly sends PCs off on adventures, and she collects part of the loot as her return on her investment. Other nobles and the Tlakotani do it as well. Fourth, government requisition; the owner does get compensated, so they don't lose any money. Fifth; other parties of PCs - yes, this does happen - hear about the goodie and steal it from you. (Which can lead to more adventures, as you try to steal it back). Fifth, you just plain lose the thing on an adventure. (Had a player drop an Eye once; missed a Dexterity roll, and dropped it down the tubeway shaft.) Sixth, it malfunctions and blows up. I've had this happen, several times; see #1, above.

All of the above has happened to us in Phil's games, and to my players. It's a pain when it happens, but it does happen. Give a good sound reason that makes sense in the setting, and I think you'll be all right.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 20, 2016, 07:30:03 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;898742
Anybody got a question about Tekumel? This is getting me blood pressure up, again... :( Sorry...


Ok - how about Eyes? I've always wondered why they are the shape that they are, not really a practical shape for someone to use, so I figure that they were originally part of something else - robots, Ru'un, or the like? But if so why have a stud to work them and not electrical connections?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 20, 2016, 07:38:42 PM
As an aside, we just started playing though Jeff Dee's "High & Dry" scenario.  The party have been sent off by their clan to find out why their client clan has not sent the expected dna grain delivery and extract shamtla. The party consists of a herdsman with a kuni-bird and some bolas, an Aridani farmer who is short-sighted and has a bad temper, a junior priest-sorceror of Belkhanu, a follower of Karakan, a follower of Vimuhla who has hennaed his hair to make it fiery red and is also good at giving out fashion tips(!), and a priest of Ksarul who is partially deaf from a lab explosion, with high lineage, addicted to hnequ weed, and his own litter with two teams of bearers and a couple of floozies (the player decided to blow his money on the litter and his erm, "companions").

I'm expecting things to go badly...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Omega on May 20, 2016, 08:39:22 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899057

In a nutshell; the Adventures books and their follow on boxed set was the last gasp of the 'internal production system' out at Phil's, often referred to by the technical term 'Anything you can do, we can do better!'

The reviews were not kind.


That is a strange genesis. Thanks.

I picked up a copy of the chargen book at either MiniCon or NovaCon. Thought it was interesting. But for years could never find the other books in the set. Currently have one book left to acquire and that will leave the boxed set and beastiary to track down some day.

Have a review pending eventually. Great production, looks great even by 90s standards. Only low points were that the rules are a little scattershot, and the section titles were too punny and detracted a little. Brutally fun though. If occasionally a fraction heavy handed.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 08:40:31 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));899089
Ok - how about Eyes? I've always wondered why they are the shape that they are, not really a practical shape for someone to use, so I figure that they were originally part of something else - robots, Ru'un, or the like? But if so why have a stud to work them and not electrical connections?

Great question! I've made sample Eyes to Phil's specifications, with LEDs and batteries so that they do something when you push the stud. You do have to hold them in the tips of your fingers to use them; our assumption was that they were originally not made for humans with opposable thumbs to hold. The Tinalya, on the other hand can hold Eyes very well, and we got the impression that they were the ones who'd invented the format - they are the most 'technic' people on the planet.

And, truth be told, I have tools in my tool cabinets that are just as hard to hold. They were all made for a specific purpose, and I have other tools that do the same thing but are better fitted to my hands. Some of the 'antique' tools that I own are useless to me, as I simply do not know how to pick them up and use them.

Objects intended for use by the machine beings do indeed have contact pads and fittings, and are pretty much just scrap metal. I can use an Eye, as the push stud works well enough.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 09:12:00 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));899092
As an aside, we just started playing though Jeff Dee's "High & Dry" scenario.  The party have been sent off by their clan to find out why their client clan has not sent the expected dna grain delivery and extract shamtla. The party consists of a herdsman with a kuni-bird and some bolas, an Aridani farmer who is short-sighted and has a bad temper, a junior priest-sorceror of Belkhanu, a follower of Karakan, a follower of Vimuhla who has hennaed his hair to make it fiery red and is also good at giving out fashion tips(!), and a priest of Ksarul who is partially deaf from a lab explosion, with high lineage, addicted to hnequ weed, and his own litter with two teams of bearers and a couple of floozies (the player decided to blow his money on the litter and his erm, "companions").

I'm expecting things to go badly...

And they will, too! Sounds like lots of fun, all round!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 09:18:42 PM
Quote from: Omega;899101
That is a strange genesis. Thanks.

I picked up a copy of the chargen book at either MiniCon or NovaCon. Thought it was interesting. But for years could never find the other books in the set. Currently have one book left to acquire and that will leave the boxed set and beastiary to track down some day.

Have a review pending eventually. Great production, looks great even by 90s standards. Only low points were that the rules are a little scattershot, and the section titles were too punny and detracted a little. Brutally fun though. If occasionally a fraction heavy handed.

You're welcome! The books are good, as is the beastiary - although the stats given seem to be for EPT, which is a little annoying. The boxed set, while still looking good from a graphics sense (1), is of lesser quality in terms of physical production; the pages are not on as nice a paper. The UK fans were particularly vocal about this, as they were paying very high prices for the game and didn't feel that they were getting their money's worth.

(1) I found the 'archetypes' artwork really delightfully funny; somebody had taken Phil's copies of the photos of my Tekumel players in their costumes from a local convention, and sent them to the artist for him to use as source materials for the drawings.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 20, 2016, 09:21:22 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899057
Well! Let's kick open this can of worms, shall we?

Oddly enough, I was just talking to Neal Cauley about this yesterday; I was visiting Phoenix games, and Neal happened to be in. (He's sold the shop to some friends and retired.)

They say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Gaming here in the Twin Cities, back before the Internet, used to lag about a decade behind the rest of the game industry. Very few local gamers would travel to game conventions like Gen Con or Origins, so gamers would be exposed to new ideas only through the various local retail outlets - bookstores, mostly. On top of this, Phil's game group of the time was even more isolated, with very few of the players being connected to the local game scene or the hobby in general. (Keep in mind that they viewed themselves as a social and gaming elite, and experts in everything.) Dave Arneson once told Phil that this was not a good thing: "Phil, you can't design games in a vacuum." Also about his time, Dave had left Different Worlds, and Phil had severed his connection with them as well, both because Dave wasn't out on the West Coast and because Tadashi-san had learned (the hard way) that Phil's back list of old publications simply didn't sell without a very strong and active marketing effort or active fan base. Sitting in Phil's basement and complaining didn't move the merchandise.

So, one of the courtiers showed Phil some of the Steve Jackson books, and Phil's eyes lit up with dollar signs - if that jerk in Texas could make loads and loads of money with this kind of crap, then so could he. What we had all been asking him for was very different; 'Adventures on Tekumel' as just that; introductory adventures that could be picked up by anybody and played as a way to get players and GMs interested in the world-setting. Instead, the books' format was copied and in Phil's idea of what the game hobby should be like. By this time, Dave Arneson had gotten connected with the parent company of what would become TOME, who then became the publisher. TOME had no experience whatsoever in the RPG hobby and industry, and relied entirely on Dave's advice and Phil's reputation with EPT.

It wasn't a happy thing. Phil, as usual, didn't have any editing or playtesting done by 'outsiders'; it was all done internally, by the people who had a vested interest in the thing getting published, and the series also fell afoul of the 'politics around the Petal Throne' as to who Phil's 'favorite of the month' was gong to be. The books duly came out, with nice production values and decently-sized print runs, and didn't sell at all well; The lack of editing had produced a set of books that had rules that didn't mesh very well with each other, and Neal was called in to write something that would tie the books together and produce a viable RPG for Tekumel. The result was "Gardasiyal", which TOME thought was a complete in the box RPG - which it wasn't; one had to find and buy all of the other books in order to actually play the game. No amount of good production values will paper over a badly thought-out specification; the 'installed base' of the Adventures books mitigated against what should have been done, scrap the books and reuse the material in a decently edited set of RPG rules. And, of course, by this time TOME was running out of money for Tekumel stuff, so the actual product quality - which would have looked good in 1980 - was not up to the standards of the middle 1990s.

In a nutshell; the Adventures books and their follow on boxed set was the last gasp of the 'internal production system' out at Phil's, often referred to by the technical term 'Anything you can do, we can do better!'

The reviews were not kind.


This explains a lot. I've always liked Gardasiyal as a resource, the spell lists are great, but I would never use the rules to actually run a game with. They always felt somehow cobbled together. Now I know why.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 20, 2016, 09:27:31 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;899110
This explains a lot. I've always liked Gardasiyal as a resource, the spell lists are great, but I would never use the rules to actually run a game with. They always felt somehow cobbled together. Now I know why.

Shemek

Sigh.  We can't make this shit up.  Combined with my utter naivite about business (and a lot of other people's too) we ended up losing a good chunk of the original seed money when Tekumel Games incorporated.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Omega on May 20, 2016, 09:30:37 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));899089
Ok - how about Eyes? I've always wondered why they are the shape that they are, not really a practical shape for someone to use, so I figure that they were originally part of something else - robots, Ru'un, or the like? But if so why have a stud to work them and not electrical connections?

Its actually a fairly ergonomic shape as it fits in the hand so readily. but in Adventures it described the eye as about, well, eye sized with the stud in back. After some experimentation it seemed easiest to hold it partially between the index and secondary finger and depress the stud with the thumb. At GenCom met someone in a Tekumel costume and they held it in the same manner after experimentation proved that the easiest position after losing a few under the couch to other methods.

But I too would like to know how it was intended to be held.

addendum: and it got answered in the interim. Holding it by the fingertips seems odd as it would make depressing the stud awkward. I'll have to see about working up a illustration or get a photo now.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 20, 2016, 09:58:13 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;899112
Sigh.  We can't make this shit up.  Combined with my utter naivite about business (and a lot of other people's too) we ended up losing a good chunk of the original seed money when Tekumel Games incorporated.


Too bad, really.:( Live and learn I guess. After getting a really good run down from Asen about the game mechanics and what not, I recently ordered Bethorm. It looks and sounds very promising. I seem to also remember Chirine saying that it was pretty good in some regards, particularly the Spell mechanics. Just waiting for it to arrive. For once, Amazon has disappointed me. Usually they're super fast, but it looks like I won't get it until after the long weekend.
BTW, Happy May Two-Four, for any other Canadians on the thread. This is the official beginning of Summer up here, and the weekend looks lovely in my neck of the woods. I've got a case of beer getting real frosty in the "beer fridge", the BBQ is cleaned and ready to go, the "regular fridge" is loaded up with victuals, the steaks and chops are waiting to be eaten, and I've got a back up of five bottles of wine for dinners and other miscellaneous purposes. Don't need to leave the house all weekend!  And, unless I am mistaken, I believe it's Memorial Day down in your neck of the woods Glorious General. Enjoy and have a few cold ones for Bren:D

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 10:03:56 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;899110
This explains a lot. I've always liked Gardasiyal as a resource, the spell lists are great, but I would never use the rules to actually run a game with. They always felt somehow cobbled together. Now I know why.

Shemek


And it probably didn't help that Neal said that he was about half done with the thing when Phil unilaterally sent the incomplete manuscript off to TOME. The latter had been told that they were getting a complete, ready to go to print set of RPG rules, and not having any experience in the business printed what they got.

The biggest single reason I was so delighted to turn my little DBA over to Tekumel Games was the simple stark fact that the hardest thing about doing Tekumel publishing was Phil's very real lack of patience with the publishing process. He'd gotten so used to the academic publishing process, where one simply turns the manuscript over to the print shop and they do what you tell them to, that he genuinely did not understand the need to edit, proof, and play-test a product. (My particular field of interest was and still are the miniatures, where it was a whole lot easier to simply do the figure - Phil very, very rarely did a 'yea or nay' on any miniatures, as he assumed that I'd be able to get that right the first time.) Phil just could not sit still long enough to really be an effective publisher, and he never had the patience to let an external publisher do their job.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 20, 2016, 10:13:53 PM
Quote from: Omega;899114
Its actually a fairly ergonomic shape as it fits in the hand so readily. but in Adventures it described the eye as about, well, eye sized with the stud in back. After some experimentation it seemed easiest to hold it partially between the index and secondary finger and depress the stud with the thumb. At GenCom met someone in a Tekumel costume and they held it in the same manner after experimentation proved that the easiest position after losing a few under the couch to other methods.

But I too would like to know how it was intended to be held.

addendum: and it got answered in the interim. Holding it by the fingertips seems odd as it would make depressing the stud awkward. I'll have to see about working up a illustration or get a photo now.

Here's how I do it...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 20, 2016, 10:49:50 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;899120
And, unless I am mistaken, I believe it's Memorial Day down in your neck of the woods Glorious General. Enjoy and have a few cold ones for Bren:D
It's next weekend, but any weekend is a good weekend for a few cold ones.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 20, 2016, 11:23:25 PM
Quote from: Bren;899134
It's next weekend, but any weekend is a good weekend for a few cold ones.

Oops, my mistake.:o What the heck, make both weekends long weekends. More beer, and BBQ is always good!

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 20, 2016, 11:29:13 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899124
And it probably didn't help that Neal said that he was about half done with the thing when Phil unilaterally sent the incomplete manuscript off to TOME. The latter had been told that they were getting a complete, ready to go to print set of RPG rules, and not having any experience in the business printed what they got.

The biggest single reason I was so delighted to turn my little DBA over to Tekumel Games was the simple stark fact that the hardest thing about doing Tekumel publishing was Phil's very real lack of patience with the publishing process. He'd gotten so used to the academic publishing process, where one simply turns the manuscript over to the print shop and they do what you tell them to, that he genuinely did not understand the need to edit, proof, and play-test a product. (My particular field of interest was and still are the miniatures, where it was a whole lot easier to simply do the figure - Phil very, very rarely did a 'yea or nay' on any miniatures, as he assumed that I'd be able to get that right the first time.) Phil just could not sit still long enough to really be an effective publisher, and he never had the patience to let an external publisher do their job.

Well, as you know, Academia is a whole other world that caters to some, while ignoring others. If Phil's primary experience with publishing comes from this arena, then I'm not surprised that mistakes were made. It's really too bad because I think the effects are still being felt today when it comes to a wider audience appeal for Tekumel. Hopefully Bethorm will rectify this somewhat.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 21, 2016, 12:26:09 AM
I may have to let my players discover the Olde Phoenix Inn just so I can easily get them to Tekumel for a while.  Perhaps by way of Barsoom, or, if I'm feeling really sadistic, Amtor. :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 21, 2016, 12:40:46 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;899162
I may have to let my players discover the Olde Phoenix Inn just so I can easily get them to Tekumel for a while.  Perhaps by way of Barsoom, or, if I'm feeling really sadistic, Amtor. :D

Make sure they bring their bathing suits! For what it's worth if I were in your group I would be endlessly pestering you to take the group to Tekumel, or maybe Blackmoor.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 21, 2016, 02:28:11 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;899110
This explains a lot. I've always liked Gardasiyal as a resource, the spell lists are great, but I would never use the rules to actually run a game with. They always felt somehow cobbled together. Now I know why.

Shemek


Yep. As it stands, it's pretty much where S&G III, the unpublished Referee's Guide, was going. So, it's a very useful reference as you say.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 21, 2016, 02:29:28 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;899112
Sigh.  We can't make this shit up.  Combined with my utter naivite about business (and a lot of other people's too) we ended up losing a good chunk of the original seed money when Tekumel Games incorporated.

Next time you're in town, I'll buy you a beer and fill you in on what was going on behind your back, my General.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 21, 2016, 02:34:51 AM
Quote from: Omega;899114
Its actually a fairly ergonomic shape as it fits in the hand so readily. but in Adventures it described the eye as about, well, eye sized with the stud in back. After some experimentation it seemed easiest to hold it partially between the index and secondary finger and depress the stud with the thumb. At GenCom met someone in a Tekumel costume and they held it in the same manner after experimentation proved that the easiest position after losing a few under the couch to other methods.

But I too would like to know how it was intended to be held.

addendum: and it got answered in the interim. Holding it by the fingertips seems odd as it would make depressing the stud awkward. I'll have to see about working up a illustration or get a photo now.

Agreed. Have a look at this, if I can get it to load...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]74[/ATTACH]
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 21, 2016, 02:54:14 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;899145
Well, as you know, Academia is a whole other world that caters to some, while ignoring others. If Phil's primary experience with publishing comes from this arena, then I'm not surprised that mistakes were made. It's really too bad because I think the effects are still being felt today when it comes to a wider audience appeal for Tekumel. Hopefully Bethorm will rectify this somewhat.

Shemek.

I'd agree with this. And yeah, I hope so too... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 21, 2016, 02:57:07 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;899162
I may have to let my players discover the Olde Phoenix Inn just so I can easily get them to Tekumel for a while.  Perhaps by way of Barsoom, or, if I'm feeling really sadistic, Amtor. :D

And have them say hello to Holger and Valeria, on their way through! :) If they are lucky, then maybe they'll meet Rupert and his lady there as well! :)

(Poul's trilogy was wonderful, wasn't it?)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 21, 2016, 03:00:51 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;899170
Make sure they bring their bathing suits! For what it's worth if I were in your group I would be endlessly pestering you to take the group to Tekumel, or maybe Blackmoor.

Shemek.

Bathing suits? Bathing suits? You might want to check with the raffish gent over in the corner, sitting and having a beer with his two redheaded daughters and their twin husbands about this...

Mercy me! What would the Hamadryad think!!!

Or Dejah Thoris and Si N'te, for that matter?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 21, 2016, 03:03:31 AM
And it's obscure literary reference night, here at the RPG site!

Try the veal, folks; we're having a special, and we'll be here all week for your amusement!

Shaboom! Shaboom! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 21, 2016, 03:45:01 AM
Quote from: Omega;899114
Its actually a fairly ergonomic shape as it fits in the hand so readily. but in Adventures it described the eye as about, well, eye sized with the stud in back. After some experimentation it seemed easiest to hold it partially between the index and secondary finger and depress the stud with the thumb. At GenCom met someone in a Tekumel costume and they held it in the same manner after experimentation proved that the easiest position after losing a few under the couch to other methods.

But I too would like to know how it was intended to be held.

addendum: and it got answered in the interim. Holding it by the fingertips seems odd as it would make depressing the stud awkward. I'll have to see about working up a illustration or get a photo now.



I always thought that people would mount them into rings if possible...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 21, 2016, 03:46:46 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;899120
Too bad, really.:( Live and learn I guess. After getting a really good run down from Asen about the game mechanics and what not, I recently ordered Bethorm. It looks and sounds very promising. I seem to also remember Chirine saying that it was pretty good in some regards, particularly the Spell mechanics. Just waiting for it to arrive. For once, Amazon has disappointed me. Usually they're super fast, but it looks like I won't get it until after the long weekend.
BTW, Happy May Two-Four, for any other Canadians on the thread. This is the official beginning of Summer up here, and the weekend looks lovely in my neck of the woods. I've got a case of beer getting real frosty in the "beer fridge", the BBQ is cleaned and ready to go, the "regular fridge" is loaded up with victuals, the steaks and chops are waiting to be eaten, and I've got a back up of five bottles of wine for dinners and other miscellaneous purposes. Don't need to leave the house all weekend!  And, unless I am mistaken, I believe it's Memorial Day down in your neck of the woods Glorious General. Enjoy and have a few cold ones for Bren:D

Shemek.


I've been quizzing Jeff Dee on the Bethorm forums about rules interpretations and errata - he's probably got fed up with me by now! But it's a good set of rules. BTW the Kurt Hills Gazetter just funded on KS a few weeks ago...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 21, 2016, 03:48:59 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899182
Yep. As it stands, it's pretty much where S&G III, the unpublished Referee's Guide, was going. So, it's a very useful reference as you say.


Are there any notes, manuscripts etc for S&G 3? I've got Vol 1 & 2 (Tita's for the latter) but I'd like to see Vol 3
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 21, 2016, 03:51:43 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899186
Agreed. Have a look at this, if I can get it to load...


I just bought one of these from Amazon: Energy Cosmic Ball (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00J5LWPTO/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) which I think might serve. I've got some similar ones somewhere but the batteries may have run out by now
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 21, 2016, 07:13:09 AM
Glad to hear your back injury is getting better, Uncle:). That description of healing made me laugh...

I'm also glad that we reached an agreement. But as my Improv teacher said, there's not much to talk about when there's agreement:D!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;899124
And it probably didn't help that Neal said that he was about half done with the thing when Phil unilaterally sent the incomplete manuscript off to TOME. The latter had been told that they were getting a complete, ready to go to print set of RPG rules, and not having any experience in the business printed what they got.

The biggest single reason I was so delighted to turn my little DBA over to Tekumel Games was the simple stark fact that the hardest thing about doing Tekumel publishing was Phil's very real lack of patience with the publishing process. He'd gotten so used to the academic publishing process, where one simply turns the manuscript over to the print shop and they do what you tell them to, that he genuinely did not understand the need to edit, proof, and play-test a product. (My particular field of interest was and still are the miniatures, where it was a whole lot easier to simply do the figure - Phil very, very rarely did a 'yea or nay' on any miniatures, as he assumed that I'd be able to get that right the first time.) Phil just could not sit still long enough to really be an effective publisher, and he never had the patience to let an external publisher do their job.
Well, I guess the Professor, like all humans, had his flaws...too bad publishing was one of them, but then, if it was exchanged, he might have published and promoted brilliantly one of the many settings I call simply "not worth the attention"...
I'd rather have the current situation, if it was a choice between those two;).

Gasp! I'm now a total heretic, I know:D!

Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));899198
I've been quizzing Jeff Dee on the Bethorm forums about rules interpretations and errata - he's probably got fed up with me by now! But it's a good set of rules. BTW the Kurt Hills Gazetter just funded on KS a few weeks ago...
Yeah, I need to check what materials Kurt Hills backers have received already;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;898887
Well, all right. And it still brings a smile to my cherubic little face, too... :)

So, we're stitting around at the Siege of Sunraya, when we notice that dear old General Qutmu hi Tizena has a supply convoy passing by. A lot of the carts have boxes of crossbow quarrels in them, the labels say, address to his Legion of the Scales of Brown. Big boxes, too. About six foot long, and about three feet wide and tall. Lots of nervous Sarku priests in the escort, too. The Glorious General looks over at me and asks "What's so interesting , there, Chirine?" and I points out to my general that Scales of Brown are a heavy infantry legion, not crossbowmen. The Glorious General picks yet another sand-flea off his armor, and we amble over to the road to have a gander at the boxes. The Wormy Boys are all twitchy, and the Glorious General invites one of them to open one of the boxes for him. The priest starts making excuses, so the Glorious General has his guards open it. There's an Undead trooper of the legion inside, and we wind up arresting everybody for violation of the Great Concordat. Off we go to Prince Mirusiya, to report all this, and pandemonium breaks out; all and sundry drop in on Qutmu for a friendly visit, and we all arrive just in time to see him using Undead in open battle. Lots more arresting followed by sundry and summary impalements.

It's all in "Flamesong", if I recall, and our part will be in my book. Volume Four, if I recall.
Bwahahaha!
Who was playing the General, BTW;)? That's totally a plan some PC had concocted!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;898884
In order:

Yep. I've heard this kind of thing from a lot of people, over the years. Tekumel's more devout fans are one of it's biggest problems.
True for most settings, BTW. It's just even truer for Tekumel.

Quote
No. See also Harn and Jorune, which their creators told me that they'd specifically based on Tekumel. Neither had a lot of popular appeal; the vast majority of gamers simply don't want to have to deal with a 'complicated' and/or 'difficult' world setting. Somebody could do it, but they'd loose their shirts in the process. The one and only exception that I would make to this statement would be a Barsoom-based game, an that's not going to happen because of the IP fees involved. There are several very nice not-Barsoom sets of rules out there, and I'd look in that direction.

No. I think it would be a huge mistake, myself, for the reasons I just mentioned. The gamers will not buy it. And no, absolutely not; I will not make the mistake of getting involved in the business side of the house that I did in 1978 - much as I liked Dave and Phil, it was simply the one and only choice in my long and busy life that I truly regret.
I must point out that a lot of settings that came lately are about as much "swords and planet" as Tekumel. One of them, namely Exalted, was in the top 5 of the most popular games at some point, and maybe still rates in the top 10...

Quote
Yes; I bought a copy when it came out - see also the weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth when I told Pundit that I thought that "Arrows" would have been something Phil would have liked, and that it could be used pretty much 'as is' for running Tekumel. They are both 'India', and have a lot of the very same assumptions and basic world-setting attributes.
Again, and contrary to popular opinions apart from having the list of canonical spells, running Tekumel really doesn't necessitate a very specialized system. Lots and lots of systems (all the effect-based ones, for starters) can do the spells on the fly, too. Even some retroclones would be able to do that.
If anything, getting the social aspects of the setting right - like Flashing Blades does with 17th century France - would be the much greater challenge. Again, almost all systems would be equally successful at that.
So yeah, I'm sure Arrows of Indra could be used almost "out of the box". Then again, Honor+Intrigue would be, in all likelyhood, even easier. And Bethorm is already what I'd use if I hadn't started by adapting a different system;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 21, 2016, 03:17:17 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899183
Next time you're in town, I'll buy you a beer and fill you in on what was going on behind your back, my General.


Sigh again.

For those not familiar with the story; at some point somebody (no, I don't know who) decided Tekumel stuff needed to be put on a more "professional" basis and a corporation was formed.  Yours Truly was prez, and I even negotiated a princely $5 an hour wage.  Living the Dream!

Chirine, may he be forever blessed, continued faithfully soldiering on, despite the fact that if anybody actually deserved to get paid for promoting Tekumel it was him.

Or maybe he was too smart to fall for it.  Hey, wait a minute...

Anyhoo, we raised about $6000 in seed capital.  A year later I resigned, exhausted and demoralized, and went to grad school.  At that point the company had about $3000.

The good news is that we made enough in sales to pay me for a year and pay for various things (see below) without using up all the starting funds.

The bad news:

1)  Making Tekumel "more professional" was NOT what was needed.  I felt bad for years about "did I kill the company by insisting on being paid", but then realized that the merchandise I was making sold for far more than my wage.  (Yes, I cast and shipped the miniatures, printed and mailed the modules, etc.  I was pretty much it except for conventons.)

2)  We -- and I think ALL of us involved -- totally underestimated the amount of "labor of love" that went into "Fan Tekumel," and that suddenly had to be PAID for in the world of "Professional Tekumel".

3)  NONE of us knew a damn thing about business.  Including, honestly, Phil and Dave.  But including me, to the point where "If you sell out, raise the price" was a principle unknown to me.  As discussed up thread I probably woudn't have been allowed to, but I never even THOUGHT of it.

4)  Nobody realized -- and by "nobody," I mean "not even GAMA" -- that the D&D bubble had burst but good, and wasn't coming back.  It wouldn't be until the late 80s or early 90s that people really figured it out.  1983 was about the WORST time in the world to start a RPG company.

5)  We still had "Gold Rush Fever".  This is closely connected to #4.  "This crummy little D&D game made Gary Gygax rich, our BETTER game will make US rich!"  Nobody at ALL had figured out yet that D&D was "lightning striking" and was a once in a lifetime phenomenon.

6)  We didn't really have any idea of what we wanted to accomplish.  "Make Tekumel the new D&D" sounds all very exciting, but what's your action plan?

The result was as you might expect.  A huge part of the problem is that I was a rudderless ship.  Now, going to the game conventions wasn't too bad; we often piggybacked with Adventure Games.  Back then you could get more dealer badges for cons just for the asking, so it didn't cost Dave any more than he was already paying to include the "Tekumel Boat People," and we only had to pay for an extra table in the dealers' hall, and not admission.  So for food and board we could get "Akbar and Jeff's Traveling Tekumel Road Show" going, and I got to say, boy howdy did we sell!  So conventions, thanks to a lot of "donated for food and a place to sleep" labor, made a modest profit.

But the worst decision we ever made was going to the 1984 World Science Fiction Convention in Los Angeles, towing the Temple of Vimuhla in its trailer behind Perfect Mikey's car.  The trip cost us a BOMB, between gas, lodging, food, convention admission, convention HOTEL (:eek: !!), the traffic ticket we got in California for not having extra wide mirrors on the car, and the cost of strap-on mirrors, etc, etc..

And not a damn one of us had any real idea why we were going.  Man of Gold had just come out, and Phil and I had a day long meeting with Donald Wollheim about MoG and Tekumel in general.  Some idea of how far divorced from reality we were may be gained by considering that Phil, with an entirely straight face, was talking about movie rights and Hugo awards.  Our general plan, however, seemed to be

1.  Go to Worldcon
2.  ???
3.  Profit!

At the end of it all I was so exhausted and demoralized I not only stopped playing Tekumel, I stopped gaming completely for 15 years.  Maybe it's a good thing it was me and not Chirine after all; I wouldn't wish that whole experience on anybody.  "No reward is worth this."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 21, 2016, 03:22:00 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899191
And it's obscure literary reference night, here at the RPG site!

Try the veal, folks; we're having a special, and we'll be here all week for your amusement!

Shaboom! Shaboom! :)


Thanks for making this old man feel young again! :D  And I'm glad your back is starting to feel better.

You know, I honestly think D&D is at its best when you let go of pretension and let the universe be a pastiche of whatever tickles you.  And Tekumel too; Phil was just building his pastiche out of what he happened to know from his travels!  So for the rest of us, go ahead and wallow in Cecil B DeMille epics, old Mummy movies, Arabian Nights stories, the various Sinbad movies and TV shows, and anything else "exotic" you can think of!

It's a GAME, dammit!  Games are supposed to be FUN!

And tip your servers.  Those kids work hard.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 22, 2016, 12:44:39 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;899313
Sigh again.


4)  Nobody realized -- and by "nobody," I mean "not even GAMA" -- that the D&D bubble had burst but good, and wasn't coming back.  It wouldn't be until the late 80s or early 90s that people really figured it out.  1983 was about the WORST time in the world to start a RPG company.

5)  We still had "Gold Rush Fever".  This is closely connected to #4.  "This crummy little D&D game made Gary Gygax rich, our BETTER game will make US rich!"  Nobody at ALL had figured out yet that D&D was "lightning striking" and was a once in a lifetime phenomenon.

6)  We didn't really have any idea of what we wanted to accomplish.  "Make Tekumel the new D&D" sounds all very exciting, but what's your action plan?

... And not a damn one of us had any real idea why we were going.  Man of Gold had just come out, and Phil and I had a day long meeting with Donald Wollheim about MoG and Tekumel in general.  Some idea of how far divorced from reality we were may be gained by considering that Phil, with an entirely straight face, was talking about movie rights and Hugo awards.  Our general plan, however, seemed to be

1.  Go to Worldcon
2.  ???
3.  Profit!

At the end of it all I was so exhausted and demoralized I not only stopped playing Tekumel, I stopped gaming completely for 15 years.  Maybe it's a good thing it was me and not Chirine after all; I wouldn't wish that whole experience on anybody.  "No reward is worth this."


Gronan, your analysis is absolutely bang on. This is the thing that many people, who were not gaming in 70's and 80's, don't realize: D&D was huge. I remember reading an article about it and Gygax in Time Magazine, but the whole D&D phenomenon was an anomaly. The planets and stars were aligned just right, or something, and for that brief period everyone was playing the game. However, just as quickly as the stars aligned everything started to unwind and it was pretty well all over. We're talking only a few years. When I started high school everyone was playing, I mean there were 10 groups just in the 9th grade demographics of my school. By the time I finished high school I knew of only one other group of players in the whole school.  

Look all of the companies that sprung up during the late 70's and  80's also hoping to do what you guys wanted to do. This was the best time, IMO, for war gamers and role players. The variety was amazing, and I'm not surprised that people thought that Tekumel could and should have a place as well.

Sometimes when we create something and a modicum of success is achieved it's easy to start pipe dreaming. After all, this is the best thing I've ever done. Everyone will love it and want more...
Well I for one am glad you returned to gaming. Have you run any Tekumel games since your return?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 22, 2016, 12:51:22 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;899315
Thanks for making this old man feel young again! :D  And I'm glad your back is starting to feel better.

You know, I honestly think D&D is at its best when you let go of pretension and let the universe be a pastiche of whatever tickles you.  And Tekumel too; Phil was just building his pastiche out of what he happened to know from his travels!  So for the rest of us, go ahead and wallow in Cecil B DeMille epics, old Mummy movies, Arabian Nights stories, the various Sinbad movies and TV shows, and anything else "exotic" you can think of!

It's a GAME, dammit!  Games are supposed to be FUN!

And tip your servers.  Those kids work hard.

I couldn't agree with you more! If people would follow this advice, and stop worrying about nonsense I think that Tekumel would greatly benefit. Even Phil said  make it your Tekumel. Why the hell does my game have to be exactly like somebody else's game? How boring!

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 22, 2016, 01:24:34 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;899387
Gronan, your analysis is absolutely bang on. This is the thing that many people, who were not gaming in 70's and 80's, don't realize: D&D was huge. I remember reading an article about it and Gygax in Time Magazine, but the whole D&D phenomenon was an anomaly. The planets and stars were aligned just right, or something, and for that brief period everyone was playing the game. However, just as quickly as the stars aligned everything started to unwind and it was pretty well all over. We're talking only a few years. When I started high school everyone was playing, I mean there were 10 groups just in the 9th grade demographics of my school. By the time I finished high school I knew of only one other group of players in the whole school.  

Look all of the companies that sprung up during the late 70's and  80's also hoping to do what you guys wanted to do. This was the best time, IMO, for war gamers and role players. The variety was amazing, and I'm not surprised that people thought that Tekumel could and should have a place as well.

Sometimes when we create something and a modicum of success is achieved it's easy to start pipe dreaming. After all, this is the best thing I've ever done. Everyone will love it and want more...
Well I for one am glad you returned to gaming. Have you run any Tekumel games since your return?

Shemek


1)  Yes.  D&D was a "bubble."  Like every bubble from the 17th century Dutch tulip bubble to the US real estate bubble of the early 21st century, rational people did things that make us later say "what the hell were they thinking?"  Like banks writing mortgages without ever pulling a credit report, or empty nest couples in their late 50s selling their paid for houses and buying million dollar mansions with a 30 year mortgage.  And the banks writing them.

2)  I didn't run anything until a couple years ago, when I started running OD&D as a lark.  I have since realized it works best if you take it on its own terms, and always remember that first and foremost it is a game.  When I finished the first draft of my book that was the revelation that hit me like five pounds of cold mashed potatoes; D&D is completely, totally coherent if you think of it as a game first of all.  Like, monsters can see in the dark, but lose that ability once players hire them.  It makes no damn sense... except in terms of playing the game.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 22, 2016, 01:27:19 AM
"D&D was huge."

Indeed... SO huge the kids were playing it in "E.T. the Extra Terrestrial" ... the highest grossing movie in HISTORY from 1982 to 1993.

That's huge.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 22, 2016, 05:22:48 AM
This is a sort of placeholder of a message until later today - just back in after a long day, at 0400 local time. The evening went very, very well. I can talk about some of it, other parts are under embargo for a while.

Saw a whole lot of people that Gronan and I have in common, and their kids (!). I had to list all of my daughters; must bring photos, next time. Got to talk to Malia, and get the little plastic guy I had found in my collection to her - she has the rust monster and the pterodactyl, I am happy to report! - so I'm happy. (I may still have the bullette, so I'll look for it for her.) Got to talk to her daughter and the daughter's friend, who is interested in RPGs and had never seen one being played; I, being some sort of 'expert / explainer', filled them in on what was happening. All told, things went very well, and I came home about a half hour ago exhausted but a very happy camper. The 'Adventure of the Ancient Pot-roast' was discussed; I was trying to sell your book, my General.

More to come; I'll try and get caught up with the discussion... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 22, 2016, 09:38:58 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));899197
I always thought that people would mount them into rings if possible...


Huh! I've heard of them being mounted in the heads of staffs and in standards, but never rings! The closest we got was when I threatened to do Temple of Ksarul Secret Decoder Rings - send in two box tops, and... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 22, 2016, 09:41:33 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));899198
I've been quizzing Jeff Dee on the Bethorm forums about rules interpretations and errata - he's probably got fed up with me by now! But it's a good set of rules. BTW the Kurt Hills Gazetter just funded on KS a few weeks ago...


Agreed. It's the best analogue to what Phil was doing with S&G, but in a simpler to use form.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 22, 2016, 09:48:48 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));899199
Are there any notes, manuscripts etc for S&G 3? I've got Vol 1 & 2 (Tita's for the latter) but I'd like to see Vol 3


I have a copy of the manuscript in my archives, but the book was never finished; Phil got up at about 150 pages and then stopped; my copy has all the notes that Gronan made when he was stuck trying to make something of it, so I've got about 200 - 235 pages in loose leaf format. I do not have any loose notes for this book, which would be normal practice for Phil in his writing. It wasn't until he really started using computers that he'd bother with drafts.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 22, 2016, 09:50:42 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));899200
I just bought one of these from Amazon: Energy Cosmic Ball (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00J5LWPTO/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) which I think might serve. I've got some similar ones somewhere but the batteries may have run out by now


I've got a couple myself, bought before the import restrictions. They work pretty well in the role, I think, although they do tend to rip right through batteries. Fun, though! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 22, 2016, 10:03:13 PM
From AsenRG:
Glad to hear your back injury is getting better, Uncle:). That description of healing made me laugh...

Thank you! I lifted something the wrong way last Friday, and couldn't walk much at all last Saturday. Spent a lot of time flat on my back, and I'm pretty much back to normal a week later.

Well, that was our 'rule of thumb'. It worked well in practice, over the years.

Well, I guess the Professor, like all humans, had his flaws...too bad publishing was one of them, but then, if it was exchanged, he might have published and promoted brilliantly one of the many settings I call simply "not worth the attention"...
I'd rather have the current situation, if it was a choice between those two;).


Agreed; Phil's wonderful creation was worth it, though. :)

Bwahahaha!
Who was playing the General, BTW;)? That's totally a plan some PC had concocted!


Dave Houtla, in the Monday Night Group.

True for most settings, BTW. It's just even truer for Tekumel.
I must point out that a lot of settings that came lately are about as much "swords and planet" as Tekumel. One of them, namely Exalted, was in the top 5 of the most popular games at some point, and maybe still rates in the top 10...


Agreed; I've never seen the game, aside from copies on the shelf at the FLGS.

Again, and contrary to popular opinions apart from having the list of canonical spells, running Tekumel really doesn't necessitate a very specialized system. Lots and lots of systems (all the effect-based ones, for starters) can do the spells on the fly, too. Even some retroclones would be able to do that.
If anything, getting the social aspects of the setting right - like Flashing Blades does with 17th century France - would be the much greater challenge. Again, almost all systems would be equally successful at that.
So yeah, I'm sure Arrows of Indra could be used almost "out of the box". Then again, Honor+Intrigue would be, in all likelyhood, even easier. And Bethorm is already what I'd use if I hadn't started by adapting a different system;).


This. I think so too, as it's a world-setting and not tied to any particular set of rules. Bit of work, and you're there... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 22, 2016, 10:14:33 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;899313
Sigh again.

For those not familiar with the story; at some point somebody (no, I don't know who) decided Tekumel stuff needed to be put on a more "professional" basis and a corporation was formed.  Yours Truly was prez, and I even negotiated a princely $5 an hour wage.  Living the Dream!

Chirine, may he be forever blessed, continued faithfully soldiering on, despite the fact that if anybody actually deserved to get paid for promoting Tekumel it was him.

Or maybe he was too smart to fall for it.  Hey, wait a minute...

 [snipped]

At the end of it all I was so exhausted and demoralized I not only stopped playing Tekumel, I stopped gaming completely for 15 years.  Maybe it's a good thing it was me and not Chirine after all; I wouldn't wish that whole experience on anybody.  "No reward is worth this."


Well, yeah. Tekumel simply did not work in a 'professional' setting; it thrived in a 'fan' setting, where we did it for the love of the thing and for the fun of it. My problem with my little fan operation was getting pneumonia on one of the AGI Gen Con trips, where to save money AGI had everybody stay in tents in a cheap campground. I nearly died, and since everything was in my name at that point there would have been all sorts of issues. When Tekumel Games was formed, I frankly jumped at the chance to off-load the hassle and issues (and the 'politics around the throne'!) and get back to what I love to do - build, paint, write, run games - and I ran, not walked, to the nearest exit. I got handed the hot potato back again after Gronan resigned; Phil then gave it to Tom after I got it rolling again as a fan operation, Tom tried to do it again as a professional operation, it failed again, Phil handed it back to me again, I got it running again as a fan operation, and then handed it right back. It failed yet again, and I refused to take it over yet another time. Which is when I finally quit.

And I stopped playing at all from 1988 to 2002, which is when I was asked to run some games for poor Rick. I have shied away from the business side of things ever since, and am now avoiding the 'politically correct' side of things. Better no gaming then miserable gaming, is my thought.

And, my General, you left out the car shedding the transmission in Provo, Utah, on the way back. That was another $1,500 out of pocket.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 22, 2016, 10:21:07 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899551
Huh! I've heard of them being mounted in the heads of staffs and in standards, but never rings! The closest we got was when I threatened to do Temple of Ksarul Secret Decoder Rings - send in two box tops, and... :)


Tune in next week kids and remember to drink your Ovaltine. :D 10 xp if anyone gets the reference.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 22, 2016, 10:31:58 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899553
I have a copy of the manuscript in my archives, but the book was never finished; Phil got up at about 150 pages and then stopped; my copy has all the notes that Gronan made when he was stuck trying to make something of it, so I've got about 200 - 235 pages in loose leaf format. I do not have any loose notes for this book, which would be normal practice for Phil in his writing. It wasn't until he really started using computers that he'd bother with drafts.

Too bad we can't get this cleaned up and published, even as is. Would be nice. Correct if I'm wrong but didn't Tita publish a version of the Sourcebook that not only  included the contents of the Different Worlds Vol 1., and Vol 2., but also these 150 pages? I seem to remember that Tita's Sourcebook had a bunch of extra stuff that wasn't in the Different World Volumes. I'll have to check my gaming book shelf later...:confused:

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 22, 2016, 10:41:12 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899558


And I stopped playing at all from 1988 to 2002, which is when I was asked to run some games for poor Rick. I have shied away from the business side of things ever since, and am now avoiding the 'politically correct' side of things. Better no gaming then miserable gaming, is my thought.
.


Glad that both you and the Glorious General found your way back to Tekumel. It's nice to be able to converse with people who were "on the ground", so to speak.
A long interval or break between gaming appears to be quite common for long term gamers on Tekumel. I know that I didn't do any real gaming for many years.  

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 22, 2016, 11:03:51 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899558
My problem with my little fan operation was getting pneumonia on one of the AGI Gen Con trips, where to save money AGI had everybody stay in tents in a cheap campground. I nearly died

Damn, I had forgotten about that.  He's not exaggerating, folks; he was sicker than a son of a bitch for a month or more.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;899558
Better no gaming then miserable gaming.
AMEN!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;899558
And, my General, you left out the car shedding the transmission in Provo, Utah, on the way back. That was another $1,500 out of pocket.

Oh son of a BITCH!  DAMMIT.  Okay, technically it was the timing belt, and it was Wamsutter, Wyoming.  Which is right at the Continental Divide.  And is in the middle of the "Red Desert" of Wyoming, which fucking looks like Mars.  And there's nothing there but a cheap motel, a horrific greasy spoon diner (I actually like the classic greasy spoon like Mickey's; this was more of a "ptomaine ptrap.")  and the BIGGEST service and repair station I've ever seen.  They had a fleet of tow trucks, including at least two that were big enough to use as ARVs.

And we sat and cooled our heels for something like eight or ten hours as they sent for parts to be delivered by courier.  Which cost, of course, they passed on to us.  Yikes and owie.

We were in good company, though; if your car is gonna shit the bed driving cross country, the Continental Divide is the place it's gonna happen.  The tow trucks never sat still.  The big ones were big enough to haul an entire semi rig, trailer and all, in; the "small" ones still had more than enough beef to drag the cab unit up the hill after cutting the trailer off.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 23, 2016, 12:02:31 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;899559
Tune in next week kids and remember to drink your Ovaltine. :D 10 xp if anyone gets the reference.

Shemek

It's a crummy commercial!  Son of a bitch!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on May 23, 2016, 12:21:37 AM
I actually sent in something like 40 box tops for a 12" GI Joe type thing when I was 5 or 6 years old.  Man was that ever a cheap piece of crap.

What always gets me, with running the store, is the sense of entitlement some people have.

It's like you owe them for that $40 book you gave a 20% discount on and have to put up with their crap for eternity.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 23, 2016, 12:51:36 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;899568
It's a crummy commercial!  Son of a bitch!


You'll put your eye out kid.:D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 23, 2016, 02:30:52 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;899315
Thanks for making this old man feel young again! :D  And I'm glad your back is starting to feel better.

You know, I honestly think D&D is at its best when you let go of pretension and let the universe be a pastiche of whatever tickles you.  And Tekumel too; Phil was just building his pastiche out of what he happened to know from his travels!  So for the rest of us, go ahead and wallow in Cecil B DeMille epics, old Mummy movies, Arabian Nights stories, the various Sinbad movies and TV shows, and anything else "exotic" you can think of!

It's a GAME, dammit!  Games are supposed to be FUN!

And tip your servers.  Those kids work hard.

You're welcome! I had to pause while the hamsters in our Internet connection had a rest; we're having a tech from our IP come by tomorrow to try and diagnose our connectivity issues.

I don't know what I did to myself; I got through the shift, last Friday night, but then had trouble walking last Saturday morning. I'm doing a whole lot better, and you can bet I'm going to be a lot more careful; I am having to come to grips with my old age, and it's taking  a while! :)

Agreed; Dave loved Toho monster movies. "We made stuff up, and we had fun!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 23, 2016, 02:35:21 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;899559
Tune in next week kids and remember to drink your Ovaltine. :D 10 xp if anyone gets the reference.

Shemek


"Return with us now to those thrilling days of yesteryear, when a bunch of guys wandered about the countryside dispensing truth, justice, and the Tsolyani way of life!" :)

I could do a podcast radio show about our life in the biz, but nobody would believe us and we'd be denounced for making it all up. Truth, at least in our case, is indeed much stranger then fiction...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 23, 2016, 02:40:06 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;899560
Too bad we can't get this cleaned up and published, even as is. Would be nice. Correct if I'm wrong but didn't Tita publish a version of the Sourcebook that not only  included the contents of the Different Worlds Vol 1., and Vol 2., but also these 150 pages? I seem to remember that Tita's Sourcebook had a bunch of extra stuff that wasn't in the Different World Volumes. I'll have to check my gaming book shelf later...:confused:

Shemek


Agreed. I'm of the opinion that anything Phil did is worth publishing, as is, so that people can see what he did and make their own informed choices.

No. Tita's edition was a follow-up to the two DW volumes, which were incomplete; Tadashi-san got the first two-thirds of the Gamescience book republished, but then ran out of money. Carl Brodt finally got the rest of the book done with his volume - he was, as the authorized agent for Different Worlds, also republishing the DW volumes.

No portion of S&G III has ever been published, to the best of my information.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 23, 2016, 02:41:35 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;899561
Glad that both you and the Glorious General found your way back to Tekumel. It's nice to be able to converse with people who were "on the ground", so to speak.
A long interval or break between gaming appears to be quite common for long term gamers on Tekumel. I know that I didn't do any real gaming for many years.  

Shemek


Yep. It may be part of the nature of the beast, I don't know. I've enjoyed being back 'home' again, though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 23, 2016, 02:43:40 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;899564
Damn, I had forgotten about that.  He's not exaggerating, folks; he was sicker than a son of a bitch for a month or more.

 AMEN!

Oh son of a BITCH!  DAMMIT.  Okay, technically it was the timing belt, and it was Wamsutter, Wyoming.  Which is right at the Continental Divide.  And is in the middle of the "Red Desert" of Wyoming, which fucking looks like Mars.  And there's nothing there but a cheap motel, a horrific greasy spoon diner (I actually like the classic greasy spoon like Mickey's; this was more of a "ptomaine ptrap.")  and the BIGGEST service and repair station I've ever seen.  They had a fleet of tow trucks, including at least two that were big enough to use as ARVs.

And we sat and cooled our heels for something like eight or ten hours as they sent for parts to be delivered by courier.  Which cost, of course, they passed on to us.  Yikes and owie.

We were in good company, though; if your car is gonna shit the bed driving cross country, the Continental Divide is the place it's gonna happen.  The tow trucks never sat still.  The big ones were big enough to haul an entire semi rig, trailer and all, in; the "small" ones still had more than enough beef to drag the cab unit up the hill after cutting the trailer off.


Like when my van inhaled all that fine snow and had to be dried out, also in Wyoming?

Ah, the life of a gaming company man; living the dream, folks, living the dream!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 23, 2016, 02:46:14 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;899569
I actually sent in something like 40 box tops for a 12" GI Joe type thing when I was 5 or 6 years old.  Man was that ever a cheap piece of crap.

What always gets me, with running the store, is the sense of entitlement some people have.

It's like you owe them for that $40 book you gave a 20% discount on and have to put up with their crap for eternity.


Very, very true!!! We used to see this kind of thing all the time over the table at conventions. And I've seen it at the FLGS, too; I always buy something when I drop by any of them, even if it's just a soda or a couple bags of candy. Just seems right, which may make me really old-fashioned. Which I don't mind being, actually...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 23, 2016, 02:51:10 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;899571
You'll put your eye out kid.:D

I am very happy and very proud to be able to report that I still have my Daisy Shure-Shot Lever Action air gun, given to me by my father when I was at the tender age of ten, and it's still in full working order. It used to see service at the theater I worked at, sniping at balloons up in the heights of the lobby so they didn't get sucked into the air handlers and clog up the system. I am, if I may say in all modesty, death on drifting balloons. I am waiting with bated breath to hand the thing over to grandson #!, little Ian; his doting parents are less enthused, however.
Title: All caught up?
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 23, 2016, 03:30:13 AM
I think, at this point, that I am all caught up with the thread. The annoying connectivity issues mean that the web is very slow-loading, when we do have a connection at all, and unreliable at best. I am having to post at 'off-peak' times, when the condominium behind the house is not on Netflix. I've seen the last of the weekend visitors to their car, and it's quiet again hereabouts.

It has been a very good weekend. I had to be in multiple paces at once, as is sort of usual for me, and I was very dubious about the Blackmoor game (as I had mentioned) as I don't know a lot of the first generation Blackmoor guys personally and I don't like 'going where I haven't been invited'. And I had to leave the meeting / 'reunion' of most of the leading lights of the old Conflict Simulation Association people, which I was really enjoying.

In the event, the Blackmoor game was something really and truly special; I did not play, and if you understand  my reasons you may get some insight into me and the way I think. Everybody was there, except for Pete (in the ICU) and John (in hospice), and it was a roll call of the early days of the hobby; the Great Svenny had come in from out of town, Dave Megarry was there, and Dave Wesely was actually playing - which is pretty awesome, as he's not an RPG player. When I got there, the game was in full swing, and I did not want to interrupt the flow of play so I took lots of photos and soaked up the sheer fun that the room was full of.

Why didn't I play?

Because, O My Children, they'd gotten Malia to come, along with her husband and daughter, and they put her in charge of this huge party of some twenty guys. They weren't playing the game for themselves; they were playing for her. You got it - the Twin Cities founders of this hobby, all around Dave Megarry's huge map of Blackmoor, and all doing their best for her - Dave Arneson's daughter. I was not, for anything, going to interrupt this. So, I shot my photos for the archives, and had the little plastic guy of Dave's slipped to her. She didn't know what it was, so I had to tell her. And that, O My Children, was when your old Uncle Chirine had one of those utterly stunning moments in his long and all too-exciting life - to see her light up like that made it all quite worth it.

And then, the icing on the cake. I got to be the 'expert' / 'explainer' to her daughter and the daughter's friend (who was interested in D&D, but had no idea what was going on) about who all us old guys were and are, and showed them all of the 1970s figures I had with me. Telling her and her friend all about that rascal, Captain Harchar of the Clan of the Blazoned Sail. Another moment - not of my personal glory or prestige, but of the awakening of wonder and the imaginations of the two young ladies. Dave Arneson's granddaughter. Contemplate that, O My Children...

It was what I live for, and continue to live for.

Got back to the CSA reunion, and talked until 3:30 in the morning, telling the kids of all my old friends just what sort of gaming antics their parents had gotten up to, back in the day. More wonder. More laughter. More blossoming of imagination. And I even got to shout "KAOR, MY PRINCESS! HELIUM, NOW AND FOREVER!" and had the utter joy of seeing all their heads nod in understanding; I seem to have sold a lot of copies of "A Princess of Mars" to a lot of young people, this weekend.

It's what I do. And why I'm writing this massive tome, the size of the telephone directory. To tell everyone and anyone that once upon a time, dragons spread their wings, brave deeds were done, and little girls grew up to be pirate princesses.

**********

Kiya: "A princess, my Lord? Of what land?"
Chirine: "Of the Land of Legend, Captain; The Land of Legend"

- from "To Serve the Petal Throne", Book Five
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 23, 2016, 07:00:41 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899593
I think, at this point, that I am all caught up with the thread. The annoying connectivity issues mean that the web is very slow-loading, when we do have a connection at all, and unreliable at best. I am having to post at 'off-peak' times, when the condominium behind the house is not on Netflix. I've seen the last of the weekend visitors to their car, and it's quiet again hereabouts.

It has been a very good weekend. I had to be in multiple paces at once, as is sort of usual for me, and I was very dubious about the Blackmoor game (as I had mentioned) as I don't know a lot of the first generation Blackmoor guys personally and I don't like 'going where I haven't been invited'. And I had to leave the meeting / 'reunion' of most of the leading lights of the old Conflict Simulation Association people, which I was really enjoying.

In the event, the Blackmoor game was something really and truly special; I did not play, and if you understand  my reasons you may get some insight into me and the way I think. Everybody was there, except for Pete (in the ICU) and John (in hospice), and it was a roll call of the early days of the hobby; the Great Svenny had come in from out of town, Dave Megarry was there, and Dave Wesely was actually playing - which is pretty awesome, as he's not an RPG player. When I got there, the game was in full swing, and I did not want to interrupt the flow of play so I took lots of photos and soaked up the sheer fun that the room was full of.

Why didn't I play?

Because, O My Children, they'd gotten Malia to come, along with her husband and daughter, and they put her in charge of this huge party of some twenty guys. They weren't playing the game for themselves; they were playing for her. You got it - the Twin Cities founders of this hobby, all around Dave Megarry's huge map of Blackmoor, and all doing their best for her - Dave Arneson's daughter. I was not, for anything, going to interrupt this. So, I shot my photos for the archives, and had the little plastic guy of Dave's slipped to her. She didn't know what it was, so I had to tell her. And that, O My Children, was when your old Uncle Chirine had one of those utterly stunning moments in his long and all too-exciting life - to see her light up like that made it all quite worth it.

And then, the icing on the cake. I got to be the 'expert' / 'explainer' to her daughter and the daughter's friend (who was interested in D&D, but had no idea what was going on) about who all us old guys were and are, and showed them all of the 1970s figures I had with me. Telling her and her friend all about that rascal, Captain Harchar of the Clan of the Blazoned Sail. Another moment - not of my personal glory or prestige, but of the awakening of wonder and the imaginations of the two young ladies. Dave Arneson's granddaughter. Contemplate that, O My Children...

It was what I live for, and continue to live for.

Got back to the CSA reunion, and talked until 3:30 in the morning, telling the kids of all my old friends just what sort of gaming antics their parents had gotten up to, back in the day. More wonder. More laughter. More blossoming of imagination. And I even got to shout "KAOR, MY PRINCESS! HELIUM, NOW AND FOREVER!" and had the utter joy of seeing all their heads nod in understanding; I seem to have sold a lot of copies of "A Princess of Mars" to a lot of young people, this weekend.

It's what I do. And why I'm writing this massive tome, the size of the telephone directory. To tell everyone and anyone that once upon a time, dragons spread their wings, brave deeds were done, and little girls grew up to be pirate princesses.

**********

Kiya: "A princess, my Lord? Of what land?"
Chirine: "Of the Land of Legend, Captain; The Land of Legend"

- from "To Serve the Petal Throne", Book Five


Uncle,

Fantastic! Sounds like fun! I'm glad you enjoyed and were able to bring joy to those present. Meet old acquaintances and make new ones...Now my most noble Lord, I have a request. Would it be too much to do an ABCs of Tekumel? Not your run of the mill, A is for Ako...But something more obscure, off the normally treaded sakbe road. Maybe like Q is for Qutmu, who took the high road for playing with the undead, etc. Something to help fuel our imaginations. Kind of like what The Professor did in his writings. It is totally up to you. Let me know if it too much.

Like many here, I have been making my own Chirine baKal's Guide to Tekumel. Taking notes on a daily basis for future use. Great stuff here. I just want to thank you again for your dedication. If you choose to "bite", it's up to you how you want to handle it. One letter a day, a sentence or two to spark our minds...Thanks.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 23, 2016, 08:33:42 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899584
Agreed. I'm of the opinion that anything Phil did is worth publishing, as is, so that people can see what he did and make their own informed choices.

No. Tita's edition was a follow-up to the two DW volumes, which were incomplete; Tadashi-san got the first two-thirds of the Gamescience book republished, but then ran out of money. Carl Brodt finally got the rest of the book done with his volume - he was, as the authorized agent for Different Worlds, also republishing the DW volumes.

No portion of S&G III has ever been published, to the best of my information.

I do have the Tita's Vol 1 Part 3 printing, as well as the DW Parts 1 & 2. However a while ago I also picked up a copy of the S&G printed by Gamescience (1983) that does indeed have all three parts of Volume 1  in it - blue and white cover, stapled pages. I'd not come across it before as I'd only seen the DW copies.

The Tita's Vol 2 is a mighty tome, later stripped down a bit for Gardasiyal I think (?)

Vol 3 would be really interesting to see.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 23, 2016, 09:58:32 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899556
From AsenRG:
Glad to hear your back injury is getting better, Uncle. That description of healing made me laugh... (to clarify-that's for how Tekumeli healing works).

Thank you! I lifted something the wrong way last Friday, and couldn't walk much at all last Saturday. Spent a lot of time flat on my back, and I'm pretty much back to normal a week later.

Well, that was our 'rule of thumb'. It worked well in practice, over the years.

Well, I guess the Professor, like all humans, had his flaws...too bad publishing was one of them, but then, if it was exchanged, he might have published and promoted brilliantly one of the many settings I call simply "not worth the attention"...
I'd rather have the current situation, if it was a choice between those two.


Agreed; Phil's wonderful creation was worth it, though.

Bwahahaha!
Who was playing the General, BTW;)? That's totally a plan some PC had concocted!


Dave Houtla, in the Monday Night Group.

True for most settings, BTW. It's just even truer for Tekumel.
I must point out that a lot of settings that came lately are about as much "swords and planet" as Tekumel. One of them, namely Exalted, was in the top 5 of the most popular games at some point, and maybe still rates in the top 10...


Agreed; I've never seen the game, aside from copies on the shelf at the FLGS.

Again, and contrary to popular opinions apart from having the list of canonical spells, running Tekumel really doesn't necessitate a very specialized system. Lots and lots of systems (all the effect-based ones, for starters) can do the spells on the fly, too. Even some retroclones would be able to do that.
If anything, getting the social aspects of the setting right - like Flashing Blades does with 17th century France - would be the much greater challenge. Again, almost all systems would be equally successful at that.
So yeah, I'm sure Arrows of Indra could be used almost "out of the box". Then again, Honor+Intrigue would be, in all likelyhood, even easier. And Bethorm is already what I'd use if I hadn't started by adapting a different system.


This. I think so too, as it's a world-setting and not tied to any particular set of rules. Bit of work, and you're there... :)

I +1ed/thumbupped your post, but don't have much to add:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;899558
Well, yeah. Tekumel simply did not work in a 'professional' setting; it thrived in a 'fan' setting, where we did it for the love of the thing and for the fun of it.

My problem with my little fan operation was getting pneumonia on one of the AGI Gen Con trips, where to save money AGI had everybody stay in tents in a cheap campground. I nearly died, and since everything was in my name at that point there would have been all sorts of issues. When Tekumel Games was formed, I frankly jumped at the chance to off-load the hassle and issues (and the 'politics around the throne'!) and get back to what I love to do - build, paint, write, run games - and I ran, not walked, to the nearest exit. I got handed the hot potato back again after Gronan resigned; Phil then gave it to Tom after I got it rolling again as a fan operation, Tom tried to do it again as a professional operation, it failed again, Phil handed it back to me again, I got it running again as a fan operation, and then handed it right back. It failed yet again, and I refused to take it over yet another time. Which is when I finally quit.

If I may observe it...doesn't that mean that we're back at the point where Tekumel works? That is, it is a fan operation now (I don't mean the Tekumel Foundation). We can just use the materials that are available, but learning or teaching the setting is...well, it mostly depends on contact with fans.

And that pneumonia story sounds just awful.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;899561
Glad that both you and the Glorious General found your way back to Tekumel. It's nice to be able to converse with people who were "on the ground", so to speak.
A long interval or break between gaming appears to be quite common for long term gamers on Tekumel. I know that I didn't do any real gaming for many years.  

Shemek

I wonder why. Were the stars just that wrong?
Anyway, better not to dwell on this. What was, was. On to the future, now...;)

I mean, yes, I'm probably going to take a break from Tekumel at some point...but that's going to be a pause while running some fairly similar settings with slightly different basic assumptions.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;899315
Thanks for making this old man feel young again! :D  And I'm glad your back is starting to feel better.

You know, I honestly think D&D is at its best when you let go of pretension and let the universe be a pastiche of whatever tickles you.  And Tekumel too; Phil was just building his pastiche out of what he happened to know from his travels!  So for the rest of us, go ahead and wallow in Cecil B DeMille epics, old Mummy movies, Arabian Nights stories, the various Sinbad movies and TV shows, and anything else "exotic" you can think of!

It's a GAME, dammit!  Games are supposed to be FUN!

And tip your servers.  Those kids work hard.

Yes...and no.

Yes, D&D certainly works better that way. But D&D is its own beast (some would say it's an 800-pounds gorilla:p) even among RPGs. It just has people with different expectations...

No, I don't think the same logic should be exported to Tekumel, or to a host of other settings for that matter. Part of what makes Tekumel unique is that it's both made for adventuring, and well-researched. The fact that you can get a scene out of some earlier movies is at least in part due to the fact that the people writing those often had read books written by people like MAR Barker!
Try replicating the stuff one finds in new movies and make it seem plausible. I haven't managed to, and I was using a system and setting made in homage of those (Feng Shui 2). My players laughed, let me know they're not buying it, but played along for the sake of the game...after making sure that I'm not going to think they buy into those assumptions, other than for genre emulation:D.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;899582
"Return with us now to those thrilling days of yesteryear, when a bunch of guys wandered about the countryside dispensing truth, justice, and the Tsolyani way of life!" :)

I could do a podcast radio show about our life in the biz, but nobody would believe us and we'd be denounced for making it all up. Truth, at least in our case, is indeed much stranger then fiction...

It would probably be worth it for the 20 or so people that believe it; but int he same vein, there are much better uses of your time and energy;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;899593
I think, at this point, that I am all caught up with the thread. The annoying connectivity issues mean that the web is very slow-loading, when we do have a connection at all, and unreliable at best. I am having to post at 'off-peak' times, when the condominium behind the house is not on Netflix. I've seen the last of the weekend visitors to their car, and it's quiet again hereabouts.

It has been a very good weekend. I had to be in multiple paces at once, as is sort of usual for me, and I was very dubious about the Blackmoor game (as I had mentioned) as I don't know a lot of the first generation Blackmoor guys personally and I don't like 'going where I haven't been invited'. And I had to leave the meeting / 'reunion' of most of the leading lights of the old Conflict Simulation Association people, which I was really enjoying.

In the event, the Blackmoor game was something really and truly special; I did not play, and if you understand  my reasons you may get some insight into me and the way I think. Everybody was there, except for Pete (in the ICU) and John (in hospice), and it was a roll call of the early days of the hobby; the Great Svenny had come in from out of town, Dave Megarry was there, and Dave Wesely was actually playing - which is pretty awesome, as he's not an RPG player. When I got there, the game was in full swing, and I did not want to interrupt the flow of play so I took lots of photos and soaked up the sheer fun that the room was full of.

Why didn't I play?

Because, O My Children, they'd gotten Malia to come, along with her husband and daughter, and they put her in charge of this huge party of some twenty guys. They weren't playing the game for themselves; they were playing for her. You got it - the Twin Cities founders of this hobby, all around Dave Megarry's huge map of Blackmoor, and all doing their best for her - Dave Arneson's daughter. I was not, for anything, going to interrupt this. So, I shot my photos for the archives, and had the little plastic guy of Dave's slipped to her. She didn't know what it was, so I had to tell her. And that, O My Children, was when your old Uncle Chirine had one of those utterly stunning moments in his long and all too-exciting life - to see her light up like that made it all quite worth it.

And then, the icing on the cake. I got to be the 'expert' / 'explainer' to her daughter and the daughter's friend (who was interested in D&D, but had no idea what was going on) about who all us old guys were and are, and showed them all of the 1970s figures I had with me. Telling her and her friend all about that rascal, Captain Harchar of the Clan of the Blazoned Sail. Another moment - not of my personal glory or prestige, but of the awakening of wonder and the imaginations of the two young ladies. Dave Arneson's granddaughter. Contemplate that, O My Children...

It was what I live for, and continue to live for.

Got back to the CSA reunion, and talked until 3:30 in the morning, telling the kids of all my old friends just what sort of gaming antics their parents had gotten up to, back in the day. More wonder. More laughter. More blossoming of imagination. And I even got to shout "KAOR, MY PRINCESS! HELIUM, NOW AND FOREVER!" and had the utter joy of seeing all their heads nod in understanding; I seem to have sold a lot of copies of "A Princess of Mars" to a lot of young people, this weekend.

It's what I do. And why I'm writing this massive tome, the size of the telephone directory. To tell everyone and anyone that once upon a time, dragons spread their wings, brave deeds were done, and little girls grew up to be pirate princesses.

**********

Kiya: "A princess, my Lord? Of what land?"
Chirine: "Of the Land of Legend, Captain; The Land of Legend"

- from "To Serve the Petal Throne", Book Five

Great story, Uncle! Glad you witnessed it, and had a good time watching the game!
After all, you're The Archivist, are you not;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 23, 2016, 08:09:34 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;899599
Uncle,

Fantastic! Sounds like fun! I'm glad you enjoyed and were able to bring joy to those present. Meet old acquaintances and make new ones...Now my most noble Lord, I have a request. Would it be too much to do an ABCs of Tekumel? Not your run of the mill, A is for Ako...But something more obscure, off the normally treaded sakbe road. Maybe like Q is for Qutmu, who took the high road for playing with the undead, etc. Something to help fuel our imaginations. Kind of like what The Professor did in his writings. It is totally up to you. Let me know if it too much.

Like many here, I have been making my own Chirine baKal's Guide to Tekumel. Taking notes on a daily basis for future use. Great stuff here. I just want to thank you again for your dedication. If you choose to "bite", it's up to you how you want to handle it. One letter a day, a sentence or two to spark our minds...Thanks.

H:0)


Thank you! It was indeed a lot of fun - I hadn't met a lot of these guys before, so it was nice to be able to put faces to names. These were the 'first generation' guys, playing for the 'third generation' daughter, while the 'second generation' guy (me!) was telling stories to the 'fourth generation'. I love this kind of thing, and then to go back and hang out with all my 'second generation' friends and tell more 'fourth generation' people (their kids) what we got up to was a real joy.

I like your idea! May I make a suggestion? If you and everyone else would like, all of you propose the 'ABC' topic, and i'll do my best to answer. Would that work?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 23, 2016, 08:29:15 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));899601
I do have the Tita's Vol 1 Part 3 printing, as well as the DW Parts 1 & 2. However a while ago I also picked up a copy of the S&G printed by Gamescience (1983) that does indeed have all three parts of Volume 1  in it - blue and white cover, stapled pages. I'd not come across it before as I'd only seen the DW copies.

The Tita's Vol 2 is a mighty tome, later stripped down a bit for Gardasiyal I think (?)

Vol 3 would be really interesting to see.

There you go! The Gamescience edition is the original S&G I, and Phil was not at all pleased with it. Lou Zocchi's first run at the book was his usual nine point type with one point leading, in three columns, and it was simply unreadable. After a lot of back and forth, and a pretty hefty bit of arm-twisting by Dave Arneson, Lou redid the book in the published two columns with larger type. He did leave out the accent marks, as well as the black plate from the cover artwork - and poor Chris Davis sat in Lou's un-air-conditioned warehouse putting in all the accent marks by hand. he had a nasty cardiac condition, and died shortly after getting the work done - as an unpaid volunteer, I might add. (I still think it killed him, but I don't know for sure, and I am certainly not accusing anybody of anything.) A section was also left out on page thirty-two, leaving a space and no errata page was ever published. Phil was very upsent over the lack of artwork, as well as having other issues with the edition.

The DW version is next; Tadashi-san redid all the text, put the missing section back, and did what he could. He did what I call S&G Ia.1 and Ib.1, and after he closed out his warehouse Tita's was asked to sell all the remaining stock. Which is where we get Tita's S&G Ia.2, Ib.2, and then Ic - there being no DW edition of this. The Tekumel Foundation, after saying that a new and cleaned up version of S&GI would be released, did a reprint of S&G I, complete with missing pages. You do get Krista Donnelly's (I think it's hers) index, the Tekumel Games "Index to S&G I" being long out of print.

Phil was so upset with what had happened with S&G I, I wound up doing S&G II at AGI; Sarah Prince, the brilliant typesetter - she was hired by the company that made the machines, as she could get the machines to do things that the manufacturer's engineers said was impossible - did the typesetting and I did the page layouts and keylining. I commissioned the new artwork, and Sarah and I used a lot of the 'stock art' we had on file. Phil did the summary booklets; we just printed those. Phil also did the wonderful maps, going back to his original 1950s maps to get everything in. Tita's reprinted S&G II, which I call S&G IIa, and it is indeed a huge chunk of paper.

Phil gave up on S&G III, and it exists only in an unfinished manuscript and attached notes. I have what is probably the most complete version, as I have all of the other peoples' work in my collectiona s well as Phil's stuff. I also have copies of the cover art, which is up on the http://www.tekumel.com site.

S&G III was the starting point, as you say, for "Gardasiyal", and I use that as my 'working copy' of S&G III.

I agree; why not let the fans have a look?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 23, 2016, 08:49:54 PM
From AsenRG:
If I may observe it...doesn't that mean that we're back at the point where Tekumel works? That is, it is a fan operation now (I don't mean the Tekumel Foundation). We can just use the materials that are available, but learning or teaching the setting is...well, it mostly depends on contact with fans.

Yes, I think you're right. One of the Foundation's basic issues with itself is that it does not know what it wants to be; one wants to be a 'professional' and 'academic' organization, one wants to be simply a 'literary agent' (which actually makes sense), and one wants to have Tekumel out there being enjoyed. Nowhere in there is any plan to foster the fans and the fan base - there are "issues with creative control", as it was put to me, and "severe concerns about the fans causing a dilution of the brand identity". I kept citing the way that ERB, Inc. manages to maintain their control of the commercial side of the Barsoom IP quite well, and also encourages a very active fan community at the same time. I was told that that business model didn't fit in with the Foundation's mission and business plan; I asked to see those documents, and was told that I could see them when they were ready. That was some four years ago.

So, yes, I do think that an active fan community that is actively encouraged to participate in the world would be a very good thing; it's the model that I used in my time, 1978 to 1988, as 'the publisher', and we built up a very strong and active fan base that was literally two orders of magnitude larger then what we have today. And that was without e-mail and the Internet. Yes, I do understand that the  times have changed - but, I would submit, this thread is the kind of thing that will keep Tekumel alive; it is exactly what we used to do with the letter columns in our 'zines, and now through this thread. I'm not keeping Tekumel alive; all of you are.

And that pneumonia story sounds just awful.

It was, and just grim. I had no health insurance at the time, and could not afford medical care. So, I just had to tough it out, and live or die as it happened.

I wonder why. Were the stars just that wrong?
Anyway, better not to dwell on this. What was, was. On to the future, now...;)


See my comments above. The basic issue was Phil's perception that 'uncontrolled' fan activity was somehow going to ruin his world for him; as Gronan has pointed out earlier, Phil often had a hard time separating what was happening around his game table from the business reality / model of publishing his creation. As the fan base got more and more active, we handled more and more of the 'staff work', and while we always ran everything past Phil, he got tired of the paperwork needed to run the thing.

I mean, yes, I'm probably going to take a break from Tekumel at some point...but that's going to be a pause while running some fairly similar settings with slightly different basic assumptions.

Oh, yes, like me and my vacations to Barsoom! :)

Yes...and no.

Yes, D&D certainly works better that way. But D&D is its own beast (some would say it's an 800-pounds gorilla:p) even among RPGs. It just has people with different expectations...


No, I don't think the same logic should be exported to Tekumel, or to a host of other settings for that matter. Part of what makes Tekumel unique is that it's both made for adventuring, and well-researched. The fact that you can get a scene out of some earlier movies is at least in part due to the fact that the people writing those often had read books written by people like MAR Barker!
Try replicating the stuff one finds in new movies and make it seem plausible. I haven't managed to, and I was using a system and setting made in homage of those (Feng Shui 2). My players laughed, let me know they're not buying it, but played along for the sake of the game...after making sure that I'm not going to think they buy into those assumptions, other than for genre emulation:D.


Very, very interesting!!! My gut feeling is that you are right about this - and what can I do to help?

It would probably be worth it for the 20 or so people that believe it; but int he same vein, there are much better uses of your time and energy;).

Agreed! I have a lot on my plate, but it's all worthwhile stuff. At least, I think so... :)

Great story, Uncle! Glad you witnessed it, and had a good time watching the game!
After all, you're The Archivist, are you not;)?


Oh, very, very much so!!! I did what I love to do, and have been doing since 1975, and enjoyed myself hugely. Seeing Malia is always a treat - she was about eight, when she was running around the AGI office at 1278 Selby Avenue, and we all adored her. I think it says something about Dave Arneson that when he and Maila's mother divorced, Maila chose to stay with Dave.
Title: Interlude
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 23, 2016, 08:55:43 PM
We had the ISP tech in today, and he upgraded the firmware in the modem and moved the antenna to get a better signal. We used to get maybe 35 to 40 Db of signal, and now we're getting 58 to 65 Db - the fact that I'm posting in 'prime time' here localy, should indicate that things are much better.

Working in the tharks - 'Green Martians', to be strictly accurate - and their thoats today while doing the laundry...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 23, 2016, 09:59:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899743
Thank you! It was indeed a lot of fun - I hadn't met a lot of these guys before, so it was nice to be able to put faces to names. These were the 'first generation' guys, playing for the 'third generation' daughter, while the 'second generation' guy (me!) was telling stories to the 'fourth generation'. I love this kind of thing, and then to go back and hang out with all my 'second generation' friends and tell more 'fourth generation' people (their kids) what we got up to was a real joy.

I like your idea! May I make a suggestion? If you and everyone else would like, all of you propose the 'ABC' topic, and i'll do my best to answer. Would that work?


Lord Chirine, so let it be written, so let it be done. I would love it. If my peers agree. Great. If not, well I will plague you eventually with many questions!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 23, 2016, 10:29:43 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;899762
Lord Chirine, so let it be written, so let it be done. I would love it. If my peers agree. Great. If not, well I will plague you eventually with many questions!!!

H;0)

Sounds good; this is, in my view, your thread and not mine. If people want to ask me questions, then I'm happy to answer as best I can. If there's something that people can take away from all this that helps them in their gaming, then I'm a very happy camper! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Omega on May 24, 2016, 02:16:51 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;899387
Gronan, your analysis is absolutely bang on. This is the thing that many people, who were not gaming in 70's and 80's, don't realize: D&D was huge. I remember reading an article about it and Gygax in Time Magazine, but the whole D&D phenomenon was an anomaly. The planets and stars were aligned just right, or something, and for that brief period everyone was playing the game. However, just as quickly as the stars aligned everything started to unwind and it was pretty well all over. We're talking only a few years. When I started high school everyone was playing, I mean there were 10 groups just in the 9th grade demographics of my school. By the time I finished high school I knew of only one other group of players in the whole school.  


Same thing with CCGs. Magic was that same lightning in a bottle and everyone and their damn brother wanted to catch some too. But 99% hadnt a clue and so you ended up with about ten thousand "giant growth" games and alot of very dead companies in very short order. And still do to this day. Retailers despise the things and its nigh impossible to drum into the heads of new designers that No. Copying MTG is not going to make you rich and heres the riot act list of why. For the umpteenth time. And even Magic is failing. In part because WOTC cant manage themselves worth a damn.

But I do think that Tekumel fills a need in certain players much like Call of Cthulhu does for others. And so its allways going to have fans dedicated to it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 24, 2016, 02:32:39 AM
Quote from: Omega;899789
Same thing with CCGs. Magic was that same lightning in a bottle and everyone and their damn brother wanted to catch some too. But 99% hadnt a clue and so you ended up with about ten thousand "giant growth" games and alot of very dead companies in very short order. And still do to this day. Retailers despise the things and its nigh impossible to drum into the heads of new designers that No. Copying MTG is not going to make you rich and heres the riot act list of why. For the umpteenth time. And even Magic is failing. In part because WOTC cant manage themselves worth a damn.

But I do think that Tekumel fills a need in certain players much like Call of Cthulhu does for others. And so its allways going to have fans dedicated to it.

Another good analysis of the industry! :) I don;t know how many CCGs I've seen go by that start big and then just die away.

I think you're very right about what Tekumel does for some players and GMs; it's been that way for probably the last forty years, I think. Accepting that, like Gronan and I did, is the sticking point for a few people. No, it is never going to be 'big', nor will it ever be 'popular'. Let's enjoy it, on whatever level, and get back to the game table... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Omega on May 24, 2016, 05:22:37 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899582
"Return with us now to those thrilling days of yesteryear, when a bunch of guys wandered about the countryside dispensing truth, justice, and the Tsolyani way of life!" :)

I could do a podcast radio show about our life in the biz, but nobody would believe us and we'd be denounced for making it all up. Truth, at least in our case, is indeed much stranger then fiction...


Speaking of.

At one con. Think was Nova or Neo in MN. Someone ran a session where they used EPT to recreate the old Republic serial Undersea Kingdom with Crash Corrigan.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 24, 2016, 05:29:10 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899744

Phil was so upset with what had happened with S&G I, I wound up doing S&G II at AGI; Sarah Prince, the brilliant typesetter - she was hired by the company that made the machines, as she could get the machines to do things that the manufacturer's engineers said was impossible - did the typesetting and I did the page layouts and keylining. I commissioned the new artwork, and Sarah and I used a lot of the 'stock art' we had on file. Phil did the summary booklets; we just printed those. Phil also did the wonderful maps, going back to his original 1950s maps to get everything in. Tita's reprinted S&G II, which I call S&G IIa, and it is indeed a huge chunk of paper.

Excuse me if I've got the wrong idea - does that mean that there was a printing of S&G 2 before the Tita's version? I've never seen one, but I guess they might be rare in the UK!
 
Quote
Phil gave up on S&G III, and it exists only in an unfinished manuscript and attached notes. I have what is probably the most complete version, as I have all of the other peoples' work in my collectiona s well as Phil's stuff. I also have copies of the cover art, which is up on the http://www.tekumel.com site.

S&G III was the starting point, as you say, for "Gardasiyal", and I use that as my 'working copy' of S&G III.

I agree; why not let the fans have a look?

Is there any realistic way that could happen though? I would guess between the Foundation and the amount of work it would take to get anywhere it might be very difficult(?)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 24, 2016, 05:35:41 AM
A completely random thought: I'll be at Continuum in Leicester, UK in August - anyone on this thread also going? If nothing else it would be interesting to meet other UK aficionados, and find out how little I know!  http://continuumconvention.co.uk/ (http://continuumconvention.co.uk/)

(Continuum has been going for some years under various names, originally set up for Chasosium games, but anything goes really now, although there is still a strong Glorantha, Runequest, Cthulhu, Pendragon etc contingent).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 24, 2016, 06:09:35 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899744

I agree; why not let the fans have a look?

I don't know:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;899747
From AsenRG:
If I may observe it...doesn't that mean that we're back at the point where Tekumel works? That is, it is a fan operation now (I don't mean the Tekumel Foundation). We can just use the materials that are available, but learning or teaching the setting is...well, it mostly depends on contact with fans.

Yes, I think you're right. One of the Foundation's basic issues with itself is that it does not know what it wants to be; one wants to be a 'professional' and 'academic' organization, one wants to be simply a 'literary agent' (which actually makes sense), and one wants to have Tekumel out there being enjoyed. Nowhere in there is any plan to foster the fans and the fan base - there are "issues with creative control", as it was put to me, and "severe concerns about the fans causing a dilution of the brand identity". I kept citing the way that ERB, Inc. manages to maintain their control of the commercial side of the Barsoom IP quite well, and also encourages a very active fan community at the same time. I was told that that business model didn't fit in with the Foundation's mission and business plan; I asked to see those documents, and was told that I could see them when they were ready. That was some four years ago.

So, yes, I do think that an active fan community that is actively encouraged to participate in the world would be a very good thing; it's the model that I used in my time, 1978 to 1988, as 'the publisher', and we built up a very strong and active fan base that was literally two orders of magnitude larger then what we have today. And that was without e-mail and the Internet. Yes, I do understand that the  times have changed - but, I would submit, this thread is the kind of thing that will keep Tekumel alive; it is exactly what we used to do with the letter columns in our 'zines, and now through this thread. I'm not keeping Tekumel alive; all of you are.

Sounds like a good plan to me. Supplement it with social media and forums...

Quote
And that pneumonia story sounds just awful.

It was, and just grim. I had no health insurance at the time, and could not afford medical care. So, I just had to tough it out, and live or die as it happened.

You lived at a very different place from me.

Quote
I wonder why. Were the stars just that wrong?
Anyway, better not to dwell on this. What was, was. On to the future, now...


See my comments above. The basic issue was Phil's perception that 'uncontrolled' fan activity was somehow going to ruin his world for him; as Gronan has pointed out earlier, Phil often had a hard time separating what was happening around his game table from the business reality / model of publishing his creation. As the fan base got more and more active, we handled more and more of the 'staff work', and while we always ran everything past Phil, he got tired of the paperwork needed to run the thing.

I heard once that someone involved with Glorantha said to a fan "I don't want to hear about your Glorantha", though it's an unconfirmed event. But despite not being sure that it has happened, I'd say that it is an attitude that might have helped Phil.
There are many parallel Tekumels, and many parallel Gloranthas, and many parallel Creations, and...you get the idea.

Quote

I mean, yes, I'm probably going to take a break from Tekumel at some point...but that's going to be a pause while running some fairly similar settings with slightly different basic assumptions.

Oh, yes, like me and my vacations to Barsoom! :)

Say "hi" to my group next time you're there. Or, if they've moved out of there, go to the homes of the Threns and the First Born, and witness the devastation they left in their wake. Or should I say, "where the Therns used to be".

Quote
Yes...and no.

Yes, D&D certainly works better that way. But D&D is its own beast (some would say it's an 800-pounds gorilla:p) even among RPGs. It just has people with different expectations...


No, I don't think the same logic should be exported to Tekumel, or to a host of other settings for that matter. Part of what makes Tekumel unique is that it's both made for adventuring, and well-researched. The fact that you can get a scene out of some earlier movies is at least in part due to the fact that the people writing those often had read books written by people like MAR Barker!
Try replicating the stuff one finds in new movies and make it seem plausible. I haven't managed to, and I was using a system and setting made in homage of those (Feng Shui 2). My players laughed, let me know they're not buying it, but played along for the sake of the game...after making sure that I'm not going to think they buy into those assumptions, other than for genre emulation:D.


Very, very interesting!!! My gut feeling is that you are right about this - and what can I do to help?

You, Uncle? Just keep doing what you're doing!

(That was a comment to Gronan; while I agree with his favourite thesis that we do all of it for fun, I think it important to emphasize that "fun" can be increased by doing the research. Many people seem to miss that part when they hear his message. And from what I hear, he himself (and all of you) were doing some research into the things that amused you - cue Gronan fighting with swords, and testing armours, and Gygax having had fun with polearms, and that's just the wargaming part of it!
Like many things, this part seem to have remained unexplained, or the fans might have missed the memo. Cue also Gronan's explanation of what "scale sheer walls" means, as opposed to some DMs interpretation of "only Thieves can climb in D&D").

Quote
It would probably be worth it for the 20 or so people that believe it; but int he same vein, there are much better uses of your time and energy.

Agreed! I have a lot on my plate, but it's all worthwhile stuff. At least, I think so... :)

I certainly happen to agree, for all that my opinion is worth.

Quote
Great story, Uncle! Glad you witnessed it, and had a good time watching the game!
After all, you're The Archivist, are you not;)?


Oh, very, very much so!!! I did what I love to do, and have been doing since 1975, and enjoyed myself hugely. Seeing Malia is always a treat - she was about eight, when she was running around the AGI office at 1278 Selby Avenue, and we all adored her. I think it says something about Dave Arneson that when he and Maila's mother divorced, Maila chose to stay with Dave.

It certainly says a lot about both Dave and Malia.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;899791
Another good analysis of the industry! :) I don;t know how many CCGs I've seen go by that start big and then just die away.

I think you're very right about what Tekumel does for some players and GMs; it's been that way for probably the last forty years, I think. Accepting that, like Gronan and I did, is the sticking point for a few people. No, it is never going to be 'big', nor will it ever be 'popular'. Let's enjoy it, on whatever level, and get back to the game table... :)

That's the spirit. Also, the Mark Twaine quote in Lord Shemek's sig is quite good...

Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));899801

Is there any realistic way that could happen though? I would guess between the Foundation and the amount of work it would take to get anywhere it might be very difficult(?)

Well, I guess we could run a KS to pay off the Foundation to let us release the text-only file Chirine has as a free downloads for the fans, maybe with free artwork. The cost of the KS would be scanning his document (at standard rates for scanning), making a PDF out of it (or two PDFs-one with pictures of the original documents, another with the text compiled).
Everything else that doesn't go to Kickstarter, would go to the Tekumel foundation, basically paying it off to autorize  the release of the document to the public domain for free reading and creation of derivative works, that is, games;).

And here's the kicker: do you fancy running a KS according to the above:D?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on May 24, 2016, 06:17:58 AM
d(sqrt(-1)), Yeah, I'll be there running One Ring in a couple of slots and hopefully playing a session of Luther Arkwright with Andrew Jones.

You going to Expo next week? I'll be running a load of Cthulhu based stuff and a Sword and Sorcery RQ 6 game.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on May 24, 2016, 10:28:35 AM
Throughout the various editions there is reference to selling things like eyes, magical amulets, various other devices of the ancients. Where is this done? In the marketplace? Are there shops run by certain clans? Or is it more of a "you have to know a guy" (whether at a temple or legion or clan or whatever) kind of a thing?

Did you ever find something that was worth a bazillion kaitars but there was no way to get it out of wherever it was that you guys spent an inordinate amount of time trying to anyway? Like a some huge thing in an underworld that wouldn't fit through a doorway, with you guys trying to figure out how much it would cost to excavate it out?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;899744
I agree; why not let the fans have a look?
This is one of the most frustrating things to me about Tekumel. So much stuff has been created that is now out of print but it is not a matter of it being a defunct company. I accept companies going out of business. I accept that things go out of print. And I accept that sometime rights get all tangled up. That stuff happens. But when it is just sitting there doing nothing it is frustrating, especially when it is/was actively listed for sale. They are things that have been printed, there are proofs available to e-publish, which costs next to nothing. I know some of the older stuff may not be in the best typeset or layout but if it was ok to sell through Tita , it should be ok as a pdf. If it is being converted as a new project and will be coming out soon, cool, I can wait, but the volume of stuff that no one can get to, arrggh! I have been trying to get the Best of Journal articles from Mark Pettigrew to get the Underworld creation stuff for a while. Carl is out of stock, no pdf is available for me to buy, and second hand market is $120 and up for a 20 page booklet. The Art of Tactical Sorcery that Chirine mentioned up thread, not available. And so many others.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 24, 2016, 11:06:33 AM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;899804
d(sqrt(-1)), Yeah, I'll be there running One Ring in a couple of slots and hopefully playing a session of Luther Arkwright with Andrew Jones.

You going to Expo next week? I'll be running a load of Cthulhu based stuff and a Sword and Sorcery RQ 6 game.

I'm not at Expo - we have our own small convention running in our village so I will be at that. Some friends of mine are going though.

I'll PM you, if you want to meet up at Continuum for an unofficial Tekumel chat that would be good. I may post on a few other forums to see if anyone would be interested.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 24, 2016, 11:11:40 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;899803
Well, I guess we could run a KS to pay off the Foundation to let us release the text-only file Chirine has as a free downloads for the fans, maybe with free artwork. The cost of the KS would be scanning his document (at standard rates for scanning), making a PDF out of it (or two PDFs-one with pictures of the original documents, another with the text compiled).
Everything else that doesn't go to Kickstarter, would go to the Tekumel foundation, basically paying it off to autorize  the release of the document to the public domain for free reading and creation of derivative works, that is, games;).

And here's the kicker: do you fancy running a KS according to the above:D?

Well, I don't have any experience of running a KS, so probably not! You'd really have to know what the Foundation wanted, how long the processing would take and the hourly rate for that, plus all the proof reading, corrections etc, which I'm guessing would add up to a fair bit, all of which would mitigate against a successful KS in the first place. However, I would be up for contributing something towards it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 24, 2016, 11:20:30 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;899830

This is one of the most frustrating things to me about Tekumel. So much stuff has been created that is now out of print but it is not a matter of it being a defunct company. I accept companies going out of business. I accept that things go out of print. And I accept that sometime rights get all tangled up. That stuff happens. But when it is just sitting there doing nothing it is frustrating, especially when it is/was actively listed for sale. They are things that have been printed, there are proofs available to e-publish, which costs next to nothing. I know some of the older stuff may not be in the best typeset or layout but if it was ok to sell through Tita , it should be ok as a pdf. If it is being converted as a new project and will be coming out soon, cool, I can wait, but the volume of stuff that no one can get to, arrggh! I have been trying to get the Best of Journal articles from Mark Pettigrew to get the Underworld creation stuff for a while. Carl is out of stock, no pdf is available for me to buy, and second hand market is $120 and up for a 20 page booklet. The Art of Tactical Sorcery that Chirine mentioned up thread, not available. And so many others.

This is all sadly very true. I was lucky enough to be working in California for a bit shortly after Tita's first started up (mid to late 1990's) so I ordered everything I could from them then while I had the chance.

I do wonder what proportion of the Professor's notes are out there with as yet unknown stuff in them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 24, 2016, 01:11:26 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;899830
Throughout the various editions there is reference to selling things like eyes, magical amulets, various other devices of the ancients. Where is this done? In the marketplace? Are there shops run by certain clans? Or is it more of a "you have to know a guy" (whether at a temple or legion or clan or whatever) kind of a thing?

Did you ever find something that was worth a bazillion kaitars but there was no way to get it out of wherever it was that you guys spent an inordinate amount of time trying to anyway? Like a some huge thing in an underworld that wouldn't fit through a doorway, with you guys trying to figure out how much it would cost to excavate it out?


This is one of the most frustrating things to me about Tekumel. So much stuff has been created that is now out of print but it is not a matter of it being a defunct company. I accept companies going out of business. I accept that things go out of print. And I accept that sometime rights get all tangled up. That stuff happens. But when it is just sitting there doing nothing it is frustrating, especially when it is/was actively listed for sale. They are things that have been printed, there are proofs available to e-publish, which costs next to nothing. I know some of the older stuff may not be in the best typeset or layout but if it was ok to sell through Tita , it should be ok as a pdf. If it is being converted as a new project and will be coming out soon, cool, I can wait, but the volume of stuff that no one can get to, arrggh! I have been trying to get the Best of Journal articles from Mark Pettigrew to get the Underworld creation stuff for a while. Carl is out of stock, no pdf is available for me to buy, and second hand market is $120 and up for a 20 page booklet. The Art of Tactical Sorcery that Chirine mentioned up thread, not available. And so many others.

Yes.
And it's more or less a repeat of "the metaplot mistake":).
(Namely, the authors of the metaplot assume that by withholding information of "stuff that is going to happen in the setting", they're going to make me more likely to buy their new books...
What happens is that I'm increasingly less likely. Because if something happened in a different way in my campaign, due to me as a Referee not knowing about relevant factors that might have prevented it? I'm not going to retrace my steps back and replay the last events. Instead, it means our actions are no longer covered by the metaplot, and anything about it in their books is useless for my campaign. Too bad guys, guess I need no more books from ya...)
Except in this case, it's not even metaplot info, it's setting info. But that's even worse: I actually build settings for fun, not even profit...
And if I haven't been able to find information on Demons of the Stability, what do you think is going to happen? A) I'm going to postpone my campaign until I can find the relevant sourcebook at an exhorbitant price, or B) I'm going to go to the sources MAR Barker has been using, and construct my own demons, possibly even generalising them to a random table that other people can use as well?
The answer is actually in this thread...:D
And in the end, if I assumed that a place is influenced by Filipino culture, while it was meant to be a stand-in for Indian seaside? I'm not going to re-write my setting, either. It's just going to be less like the Official Tekumel. And it means I'd be less likely to buy more Tekumel stuff even if it becomes available...
So yeah, it's the same mistake in my book:p.

Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));899833
Well, I don't have any experience of running a KS, so probably not! You'd really have to know what the Foundation wanted, how long the processing would take and the hourly rate for that, plus all the proof reading, corrections etc, which I'm guessing would add up to a fair bit, all of which would mitigate against a successful KS in the first place. However, I would be up for contributing something towards it.


Well, I have entertained the idea, but I'd have an even harder time running it, since I'm not even on the same continent as the Tekumel Foundation;).
And that's more or less the answer.


But, here's something for your use in your games, people. I mean, everyone can google the swords typology of straight swords.
Here's something for Tekumeli blades.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]84[/ATTACH]

Have fun with it:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on May 24, 2016, 01:49:49 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899764
Sounds good; this is, in my view, your thread and not mine. If people want to ask me questions, then I'm happy to answer as best I can. If there's something that people can take away from all this that helps them in their gaming, then I'm a very happy camper! :)

Welp, my game is still going so you certainly haven't hurt it.  ;)
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 24, 2016, 03:09:00 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;899830
But when it is just sitting there doing nothing it is frustrating, especially when it is/was actively listed for sale. They are things that have been printed, there are proofs available to e-publish, which costs next to nothing. I know some of the older stuff may not be in the best typeset or layout but if it was ok to sell through Tita , it should be ok as a pdf. If it is being converted as a new project and will be coming out soon, cool, I can wait, but the volume of stuff that no one can get to, arrggh! I have been trying to get the Best of Journal articles from Mark Pettigrew to get the Underworld creation stuff for a while. Carl is out of stock, no pdf is available for me to buy, and second hand market is $120 and up for a 20 page booklet. The Art of Tactical Sorcery that Chirine mentioned up thread, not available. And so many others.
I wonder if $120 prices for used books have gone to the heads of the the Foundation folks making them think they can turn Tekumel into the RPG version of DeBeers Diamonds.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 24, 2016, 03:20:16 PM
I just noticed that Dyson's map post today is an octagonal Tekumel tube station map (https://rpgcharacters.wordpress.com/2016/05/24/the-octagonal-station/).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 24, 2016, 06:05:07 PM
Quote from: Bren;899855
I wonder if $120 prices for used books have gone to the heads of the the Foundation folks making them think they can turn Tekumel into the RPG version of DeBeers Diamonds.


It makes me crazy. I must admit. I have paid a pretty price for some books that I "needed"...And have lost many a bidding war on items that were available on ebay(turning out to be a big name company on the net). As a personal rule, I will not pay let's say within $20 the asking price on books available there. I have even tried contacting some seller's to see if I could make a deal on multiple books to no avail. Hence, those same books have been there for years...Silly if you ask me. Oh well...Make my own Tekumel!!! 😉

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 24, 2016, 09:05:19 PM
Quote from: Bren;899855
I wonder if $120 prices for used books have gone to the heads of the the Foundation folks making them think they can turn Tekumel into the RPG version of DeBeers Diamonds.

Based on what Chirine has told us on this thread I wouldn't be surprised.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 24, 2016, 09:11:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899764
Sounds good; this is, in my view, your thread and not mine. If people want to ask me questions, then I'm happy to answer as best I can. If there's something that people can take away from all this that helps them in their gaming, then I'm a very happy camper! :)


Its clarified a tonne of stuff for me. I think it's a great resource, as I mentioned earlier.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 24, 2016, 10:32:55 PM
Quote from: Omega;899799
Speaking of.

At one con. Think was Nova or Neo in MN. Someone ran a session where they used EPT to recreate the old Republic serial Undersea Kingdom with Crash Corrigan.


Haven't heard of either; sounds like it would be a very cool game, though!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 24, 2016, 10:43:37 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));899801
Excuse me if I've got the wrong idea - does that mean that there was a printing of S&G 2 before the Tita's version? I've never seen one, but I guess they might be rare in the UK!
 


Is there any realistic way that could happen though? I would guess between the Foundation and the amount of work it would take to get anywhere it might be very difficult(?)


Yes; Gamescience did S&G I and II as boxed set volumes, and then ran out of money - which was one of the reasons that Phil stopped working on it.

Well, I don;t know. I have everything that Phil ever did for Tekumel, as well as all of the publications that were done by all of the various companies, in digital format. The Foundation asked me, in the summer of 2012, how long it would take to post all of the publications up on DriveThruRPG for them, and I said that we could get the first half dozen large books up in a week, and the entire back list in under three months. It would take less then six months to get all of the remaining publications, like my 'zines and the other stuff we did - like the "Best of the Journals" books - up for people.

Never heard anything back on this; they did take some of the files, like the digital version of the Jakalla Underworld that my Missus did, in order to give them to some of their favorites in the OSR butt that was it. I also offered the entire digital collections, both mine and Phil's, to them again in the spring of 2015 but I was blown off. A friend of mine, who's a software guy, also did a database of all the collections in order to provide us with an index; I offered that to them as well, and got the same non-reply.

So, I don't know what to tell you about all this. I am, and have always been, an archivist; I collect and store the data. Anything else, that's for other people.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 24, 2016, 11:14:43 PM
From AsenR:
Sounds like a good plan to me. Supplement it with social media and forums...

Exactly. It's a variation on what we did in the pre-Internet days, but it plays to Tekumel's strengths and avoids a lot of the pitfalls. We also now have what used to be called 'desk-top publishing', so a lot of barriers to getting a strong publication base up and running are no longer the issue that they were for us.

You lived at a very different place from me.
Very true. AGI paid me nothing on a daily basis; I got a per diem of $35 a day on convention trips, and that was it. I worked my 'regular job' to pay the bills, and all of my spare cash went to fund the Tekumel stuff. Most of the expenses for the first five years, when it was me and my little DBA, came out of my pocket. The miniatures paid for themselves, as our costs were absurdly low, but the paper products were always done at a loss. The AGI edition of "Deeds of the Ever-Glorious", for example, took thirty years to sell off the print run of 250 copies. The paper goods were a huge drain, as they required a lot more in the way of 'overhead' then the miniatures production did.

I heard once that someone involved with Glorantha said to a fan "I don't want to hear about your Glorantha", though it's an unconfirmed event. But despite not being sure that it has happened, I'd say that it is an attitude that might have helped Phil.
There are many parallel Tekumels, and many parallel Gloranthas, and many parallel Creations, and...you get the idea.

It would have, and he should have, but he had some real issues over the perception that he was going to 'lose control' over the world. The Foundation still has that, and a number of proposed projects that I knew about died as a result.

Say "hi" to my group next time you're there. Or, if they've moved out of there, go to the homes of the Threns and the First Born, and witness the devastation they left in their wake. Or should I say, "where the Therns used to be".

I will; got the tharks, thoats, and the new Helium troopers done today. Very, very pleased, as I also chaged out the bases from the old browish texture to a nice Barsoomian fine red clay. makes them look a whole lot better!!! :)

You, Uncle? Just keep doing what you're doing!

Thank you! I shall try!

(That was a comment to Gronan; while I agree with his favourite thesis that we do all of it for fun, I think it important to emphasize that "fun" can be increased by doing the research. Many people seem to miss that part when they hear his message. And from what I hear, he himself (and all of you) were doing some research into the things that amused you - cue Gronan fighting with swords, and testing armours, and Gygax having had fun with polearms, and that's just the wargaming part of it!
Like many things, this part seem to have remained unexplained, or the fans might have missed the memo. Cue also Gronan's explanation of what "scale sheer walls" means, as opposed to some DMs interpretation of "only Thieves can climb in D&D").


Yeah! What you said! We had a lot of fun doing stuff like this, back in the day, and that seems to have gotten a little lost over the years. I see a lot of people looking at 'secondary' and 'tertiary' sources, these days, but a lot of the 'primary' sources we used - along with Gary, Dave, et al - seem to have been forgotten about or lost. Payne-Gallway's "The Crossbow" is, for me, a good example of this.

It certainly says a lot about both Dave and Malia.

It does, doesn't it? :)

Well, I guess we could run a KS to pay off the Foundation to let us release the text-only file Chirine has as a free downloads for the fans, maybe with free artwork. The cost of the KS would be scanning his document (at standard rates for scanning), making a PDF out of it (or two PDFs-one with pictures of the original documents, another with the text compiled).

Could be. The Missus is the one who did the side-by-side version of the original play-test edition of EPT (the 'mimeo' version with the green cover) for the Foundation, so the technology and procedure is well-established . As I said in a previous reply, we already have everything in digital format, so the work is pretty much done.

Everything else that doesn't go to Kickstarter, would go to the Tekumel foundation, basically paying it off to autorize  the release of the document to the public domain for free reading and creation of derivative works, that is, games;).

That's a business decision, not an archival one.

And here's the kicker: do you fancy running a KS according to the above:D?

No. Absolutely not. I have had thirty years of abuse, my wife twenty-five, my daughters five, and my friends another twenty-five for our efforts to publicize and promote Tekumel. I'm happy to be the archive, but I want nothing to do with the business side of the house. I want to paint my figures, write my account of our adventures, run some games, and tell people about Phil's creation. Anything else, you'll have to find somebody else.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 24, 2016, 11:25:04 PM
From Big Andy:
Throughout the various editions there is reference to selling things like eyes, magical amulets, various other devices of the ancients. Where is this done? In the marketplace? Are there shops run by certain clans? Or is it more of a "you have to know a guy" (whether at a temple or legion or clan or whatever) kind of a thing?

Yes, to all of the above.I would not buy items like this in the market place, though; they are most likely fakes, defective, or very 'hot'. I / we always asked round in the clan or temple if anybody knew somebody reliable, so it was always closer to a you know somebody who knows somebody kind of thing. Safer, cheaper, and more fun to role-play.

Did you ever find something that was worth a bazillion kaitars but there was no way to get it out of wherever it was that you guys spent an inordinate amount of time trying to anyway? Like a some huge thing in an underworld that wouldn't fit through a doorway, with you guys trying to figure out how much it would cost to excavate it out?

Gods, yes, regularly and often. Found a perfectly good air car once, and no way to get it out of the underground chamber that it was in - the access tunnel had been collapsed by an earth quake (we even found somebody who got buried, like the Roman soldier in the tunnel at Dura Europos) and we'd have needed a year and a huge crew just to get the tunnel cleared. No way could we have kept it quiet, so we simply marked down the location and figured we'd come back 'later'...

This is one of the most frustrating things to me about Tekumel. So much stuff has been created that is now out of print but it is not a matter of it being a defunct company. I accept companies going out of business. I accept that things go out of print. And I accept that sometime rights get all tangled up. That stuff happens. But when it is just sitting there doing nothing it is frustrating, especially when it is/was actively listed for sale. They are things that have been printed, there are proofs available to e-publish, which costs next to nothing. I know some of the older stuff may not be in the best typeset or layout but if it was ok to sell through Tita , it should be ok as a pdf. If it is being converted as a new project and will be coming out soon, cool, I can wait, but the volume of stuff that no one can get to, arrggh! I have been trying to get the Best of Journal articles from Mark Pettigrew to get the Underworld creation stuff for a while. Carl is out of stock, no pdf is available for me to buy, and second hand market is $120 and up for a 20 page booklet. The Art of Tactical Sorcery that Chirine mentioned up thread, not available. And so many others.

I agree with you, said the guy with the basement full of this stuff. And it all ready to go, in digital form. I was then, and am now, completely baffled with the current regime. In the meantime, I'll keep everything 'in the deep freeze', waiting for other times.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 24, 2016, 11:27:05 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));899833
Well, I don't have any experience of running a KS, so probably not! You'd really have to know what the Foundation wanted, how long the processing would take and the hourly rate for that, plus all the proof reading, corrections etc, which I'm guessing would add up to a fair bit, all of which would mitigate against a successful KS in the first place. However, I would be up for contributing something towards it.


Most of the work needed has already been done, mostly by my Missus, who donated her time. So, most of the expense is already taken care of, as well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 24, 2016, 11:28:20 PM
Speaking of wealth we couldn't carry, I remember Kadarsha wetting his pants over a sheet of "red gold" about 5 x 10 feet by a couple of inches thick.  It was some sort of relic, covered with sigils and other etcetera.  And do you know how much that much gold WEIGHS?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 24, 2016, 11:30:39 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));899834
This is all sadly very true. I was lucky enough to be working in California for a bit shortly after Tita's first started up (mid to late 1990's) so I ordered everything I could from them then while I had the chance.

I do wonder what proportion of the Professor's notes are out there with as yet unknown stuff in them.


Best thing you could have done, really.

Well, we think we have about 28,000 page-equivalents of his files; about a third of that has never been published. Only about a quarter of it was material that I had never seen before. This is all raw text and artwork, of course.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 24, 2016, 11:33:15 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;899845

But, here's something for your use in your games, people. I mean, everyone can google the swords typology of straight swords.
Here's something for Tekumeli blades.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]84[/ATTACH]

Have fun with it:D!


Agreed with you about the 'meta-plot' issue.

The picture is great - Phil had about half of these in his dining room. You would have loved to see Gronan nd I trying to figure out how to use them! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 24, 2016, 11:34:21 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;899848
Welp, my game is still going so you certainly haven't hurt it.  ;)
=


That's kind of a relief, actually... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 24, 2016, 11:38:24 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;899902
Its clarified a tonne of stuff for me. I think it's a great resource, as I mentioned earlier.

Shemek.


It's what I'm here for, and why I've stayed with Tekumel for all these years despite the negative things. Happy to help!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 24, 2016, 11:40:57 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;899923
Speaking of wealth we couldn't carry, I remember Kadarsha wetting his pants over a sheet of "red gold" about 5 x 10 feet by a couple of inches thick.  It was some sort of relic, covered with sigils and other etcetera.  And do you know how much that much gold WEIGHS?

Oh, yeah - the Temple of Vimhula slab done in Chakan red gold. Gods, we wasted about a month of game time while he tried to work out how to move the damn thing. Something like three tons worth, and it had to go around several hairpin turns to get it out of the Underworld where he'd found it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 24, 2016, 11:44:39 PM
All caught up, again - or, at least I think so.

Migrating over to the MacBook laptop for the next few days, so blog posts may not have any photos. The giant 'billboard' I've been using for most of the last decade is having over-heating issues in the new hot weather, to the Missus will be doing the full back up thing and then moving both e-mail, browser, and "To Serve The Petal Throne"over here. The screen is smallr, but I can take it with me and it's faster all around. Very happy with it! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 25, 2016, 01:25:09 AM
And we're back. The Mac book is now the primary computer here in the home office. All the Missus has to do is move The One True Manuscript over, as well as the e-mail address book, and we're in business.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 25, 2016, 02:25:21 AM
Glad to hear your computer issues seem to be resolving themselves, Uncle:)!

Quote from: Hrugga;899884
It makes me crazy. I must admit. I have paid a pretty price for some books that I "needed"...And have lost many a bidding war on items that were available on ebay(turning out to be a big name company on the net). As a personal rule, I will not pay let's say within $20 the asking price on books available there. I have even tried contacting some seller's to see if I could make a deal on multiple books to no avail. Hence, those same books have been there for years...Silly if you ask me. Oh well...Make my own Tekumel!!! 😉

H;0)

And that reaction, ladies and gentlemen?
That's what you get when you try to withhold information. Whether it's for metaplot or setting, and regardless of your own motives. And frankly, that's part of why I love RPGs so much...:p

Information wants to be free.
The street finds its own use for things.
Stuff that cannot be found, is replaced.

Yes, I am saying we're living in a cyberpunk world already. Been saying that for years, I have...:D

Quote from: chirine ba kal;899919
From AsenR:
Sounds like a good plan to me. Supplement it with social media and forums...

Exactly. It's a variation on what we did in the pre-Internet days, but it plays to Tekumel's strengths and avoids a lot of the pitfalls. We also now have what used to be called 'desk-top publishing', so a lot of barriers to getting a strong publication base up and running are no longer the issue that they were for us.

That's my point, yes.

Quote
You lived at a very different place from me.
Very true. AGI paid me nothing on a daily basis; I got a per diem of $35 a day on convention trips, and that was it. I worked my 'regular job' to pay the bills, and all of my spare cash went to fund the Tekumel stuff. Most of the expenses for the first five years, when it was me and my little DBA, came out of my pocket. The miniatures paid for themselves, as our costs were absurdly low, but the paper products were always done at a loss. The AGI edition of "Deeds of the Ever-Glorious", for example, took thirty years to sell off the print run of 250 copies. The paper goods were a huge drain, as they required a lot more in the way of 'overhead' then the miniatures production did.

Oh, I simply meant that "working for an editing house and not having health insurance" would be outright illegal here (and in the 70ies, it would have been impossible even if you weren't working, period...I wasn't around back then, but I've studied the Bulgarian laws of the time).
The fact that paper products sold less is a waste, really...

Quote
I heard once that someone involved with Glorantha said to a fan "I don't want to hear about your Glorantha", though it's an unconfirmed event. But despite not being sure that it has happened, I'd say that it is an attitude that might have helped Phil.
There are many parallel Tekumels, and many parallel Gloranthas, and many parallel Creations, and...you get the idea.


It would have, and he should have, but he had some real issues over the perception that he was going to 'lose control' over the world. The Foundation still has that, and a number of proposed projects that I knew about died as a result.

Yeah, my point is that he wouldn't have. His group would still be the only one he has to care about in his books...

Quote
I will; got the tharks, thoats, and the new Helium troopers done today. Very, very pleased, as I also chaged out the bases from the old browish texture to a nice Barsoomian fine red clay. makes them look a whole lot better!!! :)

Keep up the good work!

Quote
You, Uncle? Just keep doing what you're doing!

Thank you! I shall try!

Good. We have a deal.

Quote
(That was a comment to Gronan; while I agree with his favourite thesis that we do all of it for fun, I think it important to emphasize that "fun" can be increased by doing the research. Many people seem to miss that part when they hear his message. And from what I hear, he himself (and all of you) were doing some research into the things that amused you - cue Gronan fighting with swords, and testing armours, and Gygax having had fun with polearms, and that's just the wargaming part of it!
Like many things, this part seem to have remained unexplained, or the fans might have missed the memo. Cue also Gronan's explanation of what "scale sheer walls" means, as opposed to some DMs interpretation of "only Thieves can climb in D&D").


Yeah! What you said! We had a lot of fun doing stuff like this, back in the day, and that seems to have gotten a little lost over the years. I see a lot of people looking at 'secondary' and 'tertiary' sources, these days, but a lot of the 'primary' sources we used - along with Gary, Dave, et al - seem to have been forgotten about or lost. Payne-Gallway's "The Crossbow" is, for me, a good example of this.

Yes. That's why I make it a point to add "but research helps, too", whenever Gronan says "it's all about the fun". Not that I disagree, quite the contrary...

Quote
Well, I guess we could run a KS to pay off the Foundation to let us release the text-only file Chirine has as a free downloads for the fans, maybe with free artwork. The cost of the KS would be scanning his document (at standard rates for scanning), making a PDF out of it (or two PDFs-one with pictures of the original documents, another with the text compiled).

Could be. The Missus is the one who did the side-by-side version of the original play-test edition of EPT (the 'mimeo' version with the green cover) for the Foundation, so the technology and procedure is well-established . As I said in a previous reply, we already have everything in digital format, so the work is pretty much done.

Well, that would make it even easier.

Quote
Everything else that doesn't go to Kickstarter, would go to the Tekumel foundation, basically paying it off to autorize  the release of the document to the public domain for free reading and creation of derivative works, that is, games;).

That's a business decision, not an archival one.


Quote
And here's the kicker: do you fancy running a KS according to the above:D?

No. Absolutely not. I have had thirty years of abuse, my wife twenty-five, my daughters five, and my friends another twenty-five for our efforts to publicize and promote Tekumel. I'm happy to be the archive, but I want nothing to do with the business side of the house. I want to paint my figures, write my account of our adventures, run some games, and tell people about Phil's creation. Anything else, you'll have to find somebody else.

Yeah, Uncle...you've paid your dues. The question was for other new fans. Myself included, for that matter, though I'm at a real disadvantage...
Because it won't happen unless someone does something like this. Or at least, it won't happen in time to not get caught in the "hidden setting info/metaplot issue"

Quote from: chirine ba kal;899922
Most of the work needed has already been done, mostly by my Missus, who donated her time. So, most of the expense is already taken care of, as well.

You are tempting me to try and negotiate a deal with the Foundation...;)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;899926
Agreed with you about the 'meta-plot' issue.

The picture is great - Phil had about half of these in his dining room. You would have loved to see Gronan nd I trying to figure out how to use them! :)

About half of those? Well, now we do know these are used on Tekumel:D!
And well...about half of those are blades I can imagine how to use. The other half, I'd need more experimenting for, though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 25, 2016, 06:43:09 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;899923
Speaking of wealth we couldn't carry, I remember Kadarsha wetting his pants over a sheet of "red gold" about 5 x 10 feet by a couple of inches thick.  It was some sort of relic, covered with sigils and other etcetera.  And do you know how much that much gold WEIGHS?
Less than 10,000 pounds. How much less would depend on how much copper was added create the alloy.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 25, 2016, 06:58:15 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899922
Most of the work needed has already been done, mostly by my Missus, who donated her time. So, most of the expense is already taken care of, as well.


Wow, I didn't realise it was so advanced in preparation. So does it just sit in limbo if the Foundation don't want to/get round to doing anything with it? Or is it feasible that something could be done with it? I don't know the legal situation obviously.

(BTW, if any of this sort of discussion is too annoying for you or winds you up, please feel free to tell us to drop it.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 25, 2016, 12:35:35 PM
From AsenRG:
Glad to hear your computer issues seem to be resolving themselves, Uncle:)!

Thank you! I'm not a computer person, so it's been a bit of a trial. I'm getting used to the new keyboard and track ball, and the smaller display. The big Mac is still working, but we're not relying on it. All the data was backed up a long time ago, so everything is safe.

Oh, I simply meant that "working for an editing house and not having health insurance" would be outright illegal here (and in the 70ies, it would have been impossible even if you weren't working, period...I wasn't around back then, but I've studied the Bulgarian laws of the time).
The fact that paper products sold less is a waste, really...


Oh, sorry; I misunderstood. Here in the US, health care is a recent invention, and it's really not for the poor. If one isn't rich, or employed by someplace with a good plan, one is in bad shape. Back in the late 1970s and early 1980s, my time with AGI, getting health care was next to impossible.

[IYeah, my point is that he wouldn't have. His group would still be the only one he has to care about in his books...


Understood. Things would have been a lot different.

Yes. That's why I make it a point to add "but research helps, too", whenever Gronan says "it's all about the fun". Not that I disagree, quite the contrary.

Makes sense to me!!! :)

Yeah, Uncle...you've paid your dues. The question was for other new fans. Myself included, for that matter, though I'm at a real disadvantage...
Because it won't happen unless someone does something like this. Or at least, it won't happen in time to not get caught in the "hidden setting info/metaplot issue"
 are tempting me to try and negotiate a deal with the Foundation...;)


Well, best of luck. I've been saying for years that all I wanted to do was collect the data, so people would have it in the future. I've done that, and gotten it into a useable format. Beyond that, we're outside what I can do, and what I started out to do back in 1976.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 25, 2016, 02:39:48 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900009
From AsenRG:
Glad to hear your computer issues seem to be resolving themselves, Uncle:)!

Thank you! I'm not a computer person, so it's been a bit of a trial. I'm getting used to the new keyboard and track ball, and the smaller display. The big Mac is still working, but we're not relying on it. All the data was backed up a long time ago, so everything is safe.

Oh, I simply meant that "working for an editing house and not having health insurance" would be outright illegal here (and in the 70ies, it would have been impossible even if you weren't working, period...I wasn't around back then, but I've studied the Bulgarian laws of the time).
The fact that paper products sold less is a waste, really...


Oh, sorry; I misunderstood. Here in the US, health care is a recent invention, and it's really not for the poor. If one isn't rich, or employed by someplace with a good plan, one is in bad shape. Back in the late 1970s and early 1980s, my time with AGI, getting health care was next to impossible.

[IYeah, my point is that he wouldn't have. His group would still be the only one he has to care about in his books...


Understood. Things would have been a lot different.

Yes. That's why I make it a point to add "but research helps, too", whenever Gronan says "it's all about the fun". Not that I disagree, quite the contrary.

Makes sense to me!!! :)

Yeah, Uncle...you've paid your dues. The question was for other new fans. Myself included, for that matter, though I'm at a real disadvantage...
Because it won't happen unless someone does something like this. Or at least, it won't happen in time to not get caught in the "hidden setting info/metaplot issue"
 are tempting me to try and negotiate a deal with the Foundation...;)


Well, best of luck. I've been saying for years that all I wanted to do was collect the data, so people would have it in the future. I've done that, and gotten it into a useable format. Beyond that, we're outside what I can do, and what I started out to do back in 1976.

Agreed on all points, here:).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 25, 2016, 03:47:53 PM
Quote from: Bren;899964
Less than 10,000 pounds. How much less would depend on how much copper was added create the alloy.


That little? I would have thought it would be more, which shows you the limits of my scientific knowledge. I think it was the hairpin turns that finally defeated them... :)

I would'a stood the thing up on end, but what do I know? I ain't a super-duper Livyani wizard, like Eyloa... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 25, 2016, 03:55:21 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900028
That little? I would have thought it would be more, which shows you the limits of my scientific knowledge. I think it was the hairpin turns that finally defeated them... :)

I would'a stood the thing up on end, but what do I know? I ain't a super-duper Livyani wizard, like Eyloa... :)

Just a super duper Chakan priest of Vimuhla:p

"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends..."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 25, 2016, 04:03:33 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));899967
Wow, I didn't realise it was so advanced in preparation. So does it just sit in limbo if the Foundation don't want to/get round to doing anything with it? Or is it feasible that something could be done with it? I don't know the legal situation obviously.

(BTW, if any of this sort of discussion is too annoying for you or winds you up, please feel free to tell us to drop it.)


Basically, yes, it just sits here in my home office and up in cloud storage - I have multiple back-ups, in different parts of the world, 'cause I is paranoid - and waits for the next change in regime. The historical model is that every few years, somebody comes swooping in, loudly announces that they are just what Tekumel needs, makes lots of noise for a few years, and then fades away with very little actually getting done. Each time, the swoopers come to me and ask me to work for them, as I am - supposedly; I am dubious - the one who knows the most about Tekumel in the whole big wide wonderful world. I am, of course, going to stay in the background and do all the actual grunt work while the current batch of swoopers promote themselves as The New And Improved One True Interpreters Of Tekumel with their version of The Official Authorized Approved Tekumel.

This has been happening for the past thirty-five years, and about all that really happens is that I add some new stuff to my collections. People come, and people go, but I still seem to be here. As I remark in my Book Six, I seem to be just too useful to leave moldering in some sarcophagus somewhere. We'll see what the future brings; I'll continue to house the data, keeping it safe as I have for all these years, and wait until somebody does something.

I leave the legal situation for the lawyers. It's not my department - I just keep the documents on file, and let the professionals deal with the issues.

And no, this particular aspect of the situation does not get my blood pressure up. What does that are the personal issues, not the professional ones. I am like the archivists at Harland and Wolff; I keep the blueprints on file, preserving them. I do not build the ship, or run it at speed into the ice field. That's for those who feel that they know better then I, and after years of this I'm just too seasoned an old trouper to get worried about it. I just don't book the tickets.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 25, 2016, 04:09:47 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;899743


I like your idea! May I make a suggestion? If you and everyone else would like, all of you propose the 'ABC' topic, and i'll do my best to answer. Would that work?


"A" is for Ahoggya, which smell bad and eat carrion.
"A" is for Ald a Saa Allaqiyani barbarian.


Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 25, 2016, 04:14:39 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;900018
Agreed on all points, here:).


And I still owe you some e-mails, too. The Missus is working on getting all the e-mails over to this machine from the billboard - a G5, desktop, actually - and I'll be able to get this done here on the vacation.

We blew out the G5's cooling vets, have applied a powerful fan, the the poor old veteran keeps on working. This machine is the newer Intel processor chip set, which we can upgrade in the future. The Mac G5 chips were, to be honest, a dead end as you can't do any really effective upgrades to them. Same with the G3 laptops we have in the reserve fleet; the pair of matched Wall Streets are now my gaming display drivers. I used one at Gary Con last year, as it's permanently loaded with our digital version of the Jakalla Underworld. (The HP laptop is the Internet 'terminal' in the game room, and is what runs the 40" LCD screen.)

So, advancement on all fronts. The Tharks look really good, I think, and I'm going back into the source texts for eye and tusk colors. Same thing for the thoats; I have to paint their toungues, for heaven's sake! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 25, 2016, 04:20:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900033
Basically, yes, it just sits here in my home office and up in cloud storage - I have multiple back-ups, in different parts of the world, 'cause I is paranoid - and waits for the next change in regime. The historical model is that every few years, somebody comes swooping in, loudly announces that they are just what Tekumel needs, makes lots of noise for a few years, and then fades away with very little actually getting done. Each time, the swoopers come to me and ask me to work for them, as I am - supposedly; I am dubious - the one who knows the most about Tekumel in the whole big wide wonderful world. I am, of course, going to stay in the background and do all the actual grunt work while the current batch of swoopers promote themselves as The New And Improved One True Interpreters Of Tekumel with their version of The Official Authorized Approved Tekumel.

This has been happening for the past thirty-five years, and about all that really happens is that I add some new stuff to my collections. People come, and people go, but I still seem to be here. As I remark in my Book Six, I seem to be just too useful to leave moldering in some sarcophagus somewhere. We'll see what the future brings; I'll continue to house the data, keeping it safe as I have for all these years, and wait until somebody does something.

I leave the legal situation for the lawyers. It's not my department - I just keep the documents on file, and let the professionals deal with the issues.

And no, this particular aspect of the situation does not get my blood pressure up. What does that are the personal issues, not the professional ones. I am like the archivists at Harland and Wolff; I keep the blueprints on file, preserving them. I do not build the ship, or run it at speed into the ice field. That's for those who feel that they know better then I, and after years of this I'm just too seasoned an old trouper to get worried about it. I just don't book the tickets.

Chirine,

This is why Tekumel is doomed to fade into obscurity, IMO. The so called guardians of Tekumel would sooner see it die than get over their insecurities and personal "butt hurt". What I don't understand is why Phil's widow doesn't step in and toss those Tekuweenies on their ears. Does she not have ultimate control of the Tekumel Foundation, or does she not care? Tragic, really.


Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 25, 2016, 04:37:22 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;900035
"A" is for Ahoggya, which smell bad and eat carrion.
"A" is for Ald a Saa Allaqiyani barbarian.

Shemek.

Ahoggya - Not so much carrion as anything they can get their hands on. Which is why they are forbidden to go anywhere near Temples of Belkhanu, for example.

Ald - Oi! That's Vrisa's clan cousin you're talking about there, mate! The Vishetru clan is about as civilized as you can get, being descended from the Engsvanyali governors of what was then a province of the Priest-kings' empire. In person, he's quite a decent person - at least, he was to Vrisa and I - but there are just some things best not brought up in the conversation. He's quite occupied with forging an empire, and doing a pretty good job of it. Not a person to be taken lightly, or trifled with.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 25, 2016, 04:45:48 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900028
I think it was the hairpin turns that finally defeated them... :)

I would'a stood the thing up on end, but what do I know? I ain't a super-duper Livyani wizard, like Eyloa... :)
If you just wanted the metal, melting and/or hammering it into less awkward shape(s) would have helped. Maybe chop it up and fold it into some bars. Or turn it into a bunch of wheels so you could roll it down the hall. Stairs would have been a problem for wheels though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 25, 2016, 04:49:16 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;900038
Chirine,

This is why Tekumel is doomed to fade into obscurity, IMO. The so called guardians of Tekumel would sooner see it die than get over their insecurities and personal "butt hurt". What I don't understand is why Phil's widow doesn't step in and toss those Tekuweenies on their ears. Does she not have ultimate control of the Tekumel Foundation, or does she not care? Tragic, really.


Shemek.

Well, yes about the butt-hurt and the effect it has; I don't know about the obscurity part. It all depends on the fans - there' a lot of 'underground' stuff going on, and more then a little activity 'under the radar'. We'll see, I guess; I prefer to be hopeful and optimistic, myself.

Ambereen doesn't much worry about the problems of the Foundation. She's just one of the six Directors of the thing, and her only real power would be to cancel the Foundation's license to publish and retrieve Phill's collection (her property, last time I heard) from them. Tekumel was Phil's 'poker night with the boys', and she just wasn't all that interested in the thing over the years. She was pretty happy to be able to dump the whole thng off on them and move out of state to be with her family, and I don't really blame her. She's tried very hard to distance herself from all the screaming and shouting, and I respect that. I'm in the same boat; I, quite frankly, got what I came for back in 1976 when I made the digital back-up of all Phil's data, and I'm more then happy to let somebody else sit in the hot-seat. Being Phil's publisher was not a lot of fun, and soured me on games, gaming, gamers, and Tekumel itself for decades. I much prefer being the abbot of the remote citadel of scholars, quite frankly; this thread is the equivalent of the pilgrims coming to the Holy Mountain, ringing the bell, and the monks let down the basket. The pilgrims put their questions and such into the basket, it gets hauled up, and after a pause the replies come beck down.

I don;t know where it's all going to go, in the future. All I can do is keep talking about Tekumel with people and preserving the data for those who come after me.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 25, 2016, 04:51:06 PM
Quote from: Bren;900042
If you just wanted the metal, melting and/or hammering it into less awkward shape(s) would have helped. Maybe chop it up and fold it into some bars. Or turn it into a bunch of wheels so you could roll it down the hall. Stairs would have been a problem for wheels though.

That's what was being muttered down my end of the table, but Eyloa wanted the thing for the magical glyphs and inscriptions to it had to be kept intact. It's still down there, as far as I know.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 25, 2016, 09:18:07 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900040
Ahoggya - Not so much carrion as anything they can get their hands on. Which is why they are forbidden to go anywhere near Temples of Belkhanu, for example.

Ald - Oi! That's Vrisa's clan cousin you're talking about there, mate! The Vishetru clan is about as civilized as you can get, being descended from the Engsvanyali governors of what was then a province of the Priest-kings' empire. In person, he's quite a decent person - at least, he was to Vrisa and I - but there are just some things best not brought up in the conversation. He's quite occupied with forging an empire, and doing a pretty good job of it. Not a person to be taken lightly, or trifled with.


Poetic licence is all. I have no doubt the Baron is fine upstanding and noble person. No offence was intended.
Alas, carrion is easier to rhyme than "anything they can get their hands on".

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 25, 2016, 09:23:01 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900044
Well, yes about the butt-hurt and the effect it has; I don't know about the obscurity part. It all depends on the fans - there' a lot of 'underground' stuff going on, and more then a little activity 'under the radar'. We'll see, I guess; I prefer to be hopeful and optimistic, myself.

Ambereen doesn't much worry about the problems of the Foundation. She's just one of the six Directors of the thing, and her only real power would be to cancel the Foundation's license to publish and retrieve Phill's collection (her property, last time I heard) from them. Tekumel was Phil's 'poker night with the boys', and she just wasn't all that interested in the thing over the years. She was pretty happy to be able to dump the whole thng off on them and move out of state to be with her family, and I don't really blame her. She's tried very hard to distance herself from all the screaming and shouting, and I respect that. I'm in the same boat; I, quite frankly, got what I came for back in 1976 when I made the digital back-up of all Phil's data, and I'm more then happy to let somebody else sit in the hot-seat. Being Phil's publisher was not a lot of fun, and soured me on games, gaming, gamers, and Tekumel itself for decades. I much prefer being the abbot of the remote citadel of scholars, quite frankly; this thread is the equivalent of the pilgrims coming to the Holy Mountain, ringing the bell, and the monks let down the basket. The pilgrims put their questions and such into the basket, it gets hauled up, and after a pause the replies come beck down.

I don;t know where it's all going to go, in the future. All I can do is keep talking about Tekumel with people and preserving the data for those who come after me.

 Let's hope saner heads will eventually prevail and we start seeing some stuff. In the meantime I'll keep sending things up in the basket and hope for the best.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 25, 2016, 09:23:48 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;899803
That was a comment to Gronan; while I agree with his favourite thesis that we do all of it for fun, I think it important to emphasize that "fun" can be increased by doing the research.


I'm not quite sure where you got the idea that I don't do research, lad, or that "fun" and "research" are somehow opposed, but it wasn't from me.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 25, 2016, 09:27:58 PM
Quote from: Bren;899964
Less than 10,000 pounds. How much less would depend on how much copper was added create the alloy.


10,000 pounds?  For six or eight pre industrial people in robes or armor, with no tools other than some ropes, pitons, and hammers?  Down in a chamber deep in a labyrinthine underworld?

Oh, and Tekumelyani magic is HIGHLY allergic to metal.  Which reminds me of the time the apprentice sorceror blew himself up, killed half his companions, and deafened the rest...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 25, 2016, 09:30:00 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900033
The historical model is that every few years, somebody comes swooping in, loudly announces that they are just what Tekumel needs, makes lots of noise for a few years, and then fades away with very little actually getting done.


"Seagull" management.  They swoop in, flap around, squawk loudly, shit all over everything and everybody, and swoop out again.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 25, 2016, 09:36:05 PM
Quote from: Bren;900042
If you just wanted the metal, melting

No forge.  No fuel, for that matter.

Quote from: Bren;900042
and/or hammering it into less awkward shape(s)

No hammers, except light mountaineer-style hammers.  Actually, with metal being SO rare on Tekumel, the pitons were bronze and I believe the "hammers" were actually old style wooden mallets with brass faces.

Quote from: Bren;900042
would have helped. Maybe chop it up and fold it into some bars.


No chisels.  No bending brake, either.  Or anything much heavier than a mace.

Quote from: Bren;900042
Or turn it into a bunch of wheels so you could roll it down the hall.

I assume you mean by magic.  Metal makes magic backfire catastrophically, not just iron.  That's why military magic is such a specialized subset.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 25, 2016, 09:37:38 PM
My point (and I do have one) is that this was a seasoned bunch of adventurers, but we had adventuring gear, not something to extract a five ton object.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 26, 2016, 03:04:09 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;900083
Poetic licence is all. I have no doubt the Baron is fine upstanding and noble person. No offence was intended.
Alas, carrion is easier to rhyme than "anything they can get their hands on".

Shemek.


My fault!!! I didn't catch the rhyme!!! (I feel like a fool, tonight...) :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 26, 2016, 03:05:07 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;900085
Let's hope saner heads will eventually prevail and we start seeing some stuff. In the meantime I'll keep sending things up in the basket and hope for the best.

Shemek.


Best we can do in the long run, I think...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 26, 2016, 03:10:37 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900089
"Seagull" management.  They swoop in, flap around, squawk loudly, shit all over everything and everybody, and swoop out again.


Oh, tell me about it. I've had five years of gonzo visitors like this, all of whom have yet to come up with anything solid. It's getting to the point where I'm requiring references on 'cold calls'.

I think that the "inappropriate shelving" comment made by a first-time visitor was my favorite; I was a trifle nettled by it, as the shelves in the game lounge were one of the very first projects that Third Daughter and I did together. I was also a little startled; most first-time visitors to somebody's house don't kick off their visit by insulting their host. But hey; what do I know, eh? :rolleyes:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 26, 2016, 03:12:12 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900092

I assume you mean by magic.  Metal makes magic backfire catastrophically, not just iron.  That's why military magic is such a specialized subset.


Chirine! Chirine make BOOM! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 26, 2016, 03:38:25 AM
The poor old G5 died again, just as I was starting this, so I'll try again. I'm looking for input on something, here... :)

The tharks and thoats are done, and I did all of my Barsoomian figures' bases in real red Martian soil; I am very pleased with how it all turned out, and now we need flyers.

The books and the movie have very different ideas of what these look like, and I'm going to stay away from that for now; a big ship, like the ones in the film, are going to be about a meter long in 28mm scale, and while great for big floor games are not so great for table-top skirmishes. What I'm looking at doing are 'skiffs', like ship's boats, that landing parties would use to drop in on something. I'd also like these to be as useful as possible as Tekumelyani aircars, as I'd like to have as few single-use models in the inventory as I can.

My thought is to have as much open deck as possible, with the idea of five to ten figures being able to stand on the open decks. ERB says that seats are not that big an issue, as the warriors clip their harnesses to the flyer, and I'll go with that. I'm experimenting with flat plywood ovals, with details glued to the bottom to hide the sockets for the stands - these will be dowels - and minimal stuff on the top deck so it does not get in the way. Working searchlights are an option; I have this kind of stuff in stock.

So, what would any and all of you like to see, if you were playing in one of my games?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 26, 2016, 03:49:56 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900036
And I still owe you some e-mails, too. The Missus is working on getting all the e-mails over to this machine from the billboard - a G5, desktop, actually - and I'll be able to get this done here on the vacation.

No need to spend your vacation on that, Uncle:). It's nothing urgent.

Quote
We blew out the G5's cooling vets, have applied a powerful fan, the the poor old veteran keeps on working. This machine is the newer Intel processor chip set, which we can upgrade in the future. The Mac G5 chips were, to be honest, a dead end as you can't do any really effective upgrades to them. Same with the G3 laptops we have in the reserve fleet; the pair of matched Wall Streets are now my gaming display drivers. I used one at Gary Con last year, as it's permanently loaded with our digital version of the Jakalla Underworld. (The HP laptop is the Internet 'terminal' in the game room, and is what runs the 40" LCD screen.)

So, advancement on all fronts. The Tharks look really good, I think, and I'm going back into the source texts for eye and tusk colors. Same thing for the thoats; I have to paint their toungues, for heaven's sake! :)

Glad there's technical progress...
But now you're making me wonder what is the colour of a thoat's tongue:D!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;900044
Well, yes about the butt-hurt and the effect it has; I don't know about the obscurity part. It all depends on the fans - there' a lot of 'underground' stuff going on, and more then a little activity 'under the radar'. We'll see, I guess; I prefer to be hopeful and optimistic, myself.

Ambereen doesn't much worry about the problems of the Foundation. She's just one of the six Directors of the thing, and her only real power would be to cancel the Foundation's license to publish and retrieve Phill's collection (her property, last time I heard) from them. Tekumel was Phil's 'poker night with the boys', and she just wasn't all that interested in the thing over the years. She was pretty happy to be able to dump the whole thng off on them and move out of state to be with her family, and I don't really blame her. She's tried very hard to distance herself from all the screaming and shouting, and I respect that. I'm in the same boat; I, quite frankly, got what I came for back in 1976 when I made the digital back-up of all Phil's data, and I'm more then happy to let somebody else sit in the hot-seat. Being Phil's publisher was not a lot of fun, and soured me on games, gaming, gamers, and Tekumel itself for decades. I much prefer being the abbot of the remote citadel of scholars, quite frankly; this thread is the equivalent of the pilgrims coming to the Holy Mountain, ringing the bell, and the monks let down the basket. The pilgrims put their questions and such into the basket, it gets hauled up, and after a pause the replies come beck down.

I don;t know where it's all going to go, in the future. All I can do is keep talking about Tekumel with people and preserving the data for those who come after me.

I can totally relate to Ambereen's position, too, especially after reading your memories of being a Tekumeli editor and publisher:p. It's too bad it doesn't work for some of us, but that's simply our problem, and we should solve it ourselves.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900086
I'm not quite sure where you got the idea that I don't do research, lad, or that "fun" and "research" are somehow opposed, but it wasn't from me.

...please, Gronan, re-read my post. If it's not clear that I don't mean "Gronan said that", rewrite my text in a way that would make it sufficiently clear - and I'll edit the text and replace it with whatever you suggest:).

My point, to clarify, isn't that "Gronan says fun doesn't need research". The point was, and is, that quite a few people did take your words (the story with the McMonster on the 6th level especially) to mean exactly that. Much to your chagrin, I suppose - but I know I had misunderstood you in this exact way, too, and we can reasonably* assume I wasn't the only one.

*Based on the threads where you mentioned it;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900093
My point (and I do have one) is that this was a seasoned bunch of adventurers, but we had adventuring gear, not something to extract a five ton object.

Didn't you say it was gold? Gold ain't a hard metal. Why didn't you just use a big rock?
At least, that's what I would have tried.
Now, if you wanted the magical inscriptions, that would have been harder. But it's not impossible to copy them if you had, say, clay or gesso in sufficient quantities (gesso is useful for broken bones, so I'd assume you to have it - but the quantity might not have been sufficient for something equaling 4,5 square meters).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 26, 2016, 05:47:45 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900133
The poor old G5 died again, just as I was starting this, so I'll try again. I'm looking for input on something, here... :)

The tharks and thoats are done, and I did all of my Barsoomian figures' bases in real red Martian soil; I am very pleased with how it all turned out, and now we need flyers.

The books and the movie have very different ideas of what these look like, and I'm going to stay away from that for now; a big ship, like the ones in the film, are going to be about a meter long in 28mm scale, and while great for big floor games are not so great for table-top skirmishes. What I'm looking at doing are 'skiffs', like ship's boats, that landing parties would use to drop in on something. I'd also like these to be as useful as possible as Tekumelyani aircars, as I'd like to have as few single-use models in the inventory as I can.

My thought is to have as much open deck as possible, with the idea of five to ten figures being able to stand on the open decks. ERB says that seats are not that big an issue, as the warriors clip their harnesses to the flyer, and I'll go with that. I'm experimenting with flat plywood ovals, with details glued to the bottom to hide the sockets for the stands - these will be dowels - and minimal stuff on the top deck so it does not get in the way. Working searchlights are an option; I have this kind of stuff in stock.

So, what would any and all of you like to see, if you were playing in one of my games?


Uncle,

What would I like to see? I would love to go to Barsoom, a mission into the Jakallan Underworld, exploring the under-the-temple scenario, or even being in command of my own Legion in a battle, you also mentioned the sakbe road, an adventure/battle on or around that would be neat!!! I could go on...!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 26, 2016, 10:00:56 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;900135

My point, to clarify, isn't that "Gronan says fun doesn't need research". The point was, and is, that quite a few people did take your words (the story with the McMonster on the 6th level especially) to mean exactly that. Much to your chagrin, I suppose - but I know I had misunderstood you in this exact way, too, and we can reasonably* assume I wasn't the only one.

*Based on the threads where you mentioned it;).

Thank you for the clarification.

I guess I didn't worry much about making the distinction clear because I thought it was clear, or that people would ask.  I frankly never dreamed that talking about one piss take would be enough to convince people that I had spent forty years running a game that was nothing but a collection of stupid jokes.

Quote from: AsenRG;900135
Didn't you say it was gold? Gold ain't a hard metal. Why didn't you just use a big rock?
At least, that's what I would have tried.

And where, my bright young lad, were we to find a big rock?  The Ancients left a noticeable scarcity of loose debris in their structures.

Or in other words, we're Godsdamned player characters, don't you think we THOUGHT of all that?  That's what made the farting, fainting, and falling down so much fun.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 26, 2016, 10:45:01 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900133
The poor old G5 died again, just as I was starting this, so I'll try again. I'm looking for input on something, here... :)

The tharks and thoats are done, and I did all of my Barsoomian figures' bases in real red Martian soil; I am very pleased with how it all turned out, and now we need flyers.

The books and the movie have very different ideas of what these look like, and I'm going to stay away from that for now; a big ship, like the ones in the film, are going to be about a meter long in 28mm scale, and while great for big floor games are not so great for table-top skirmishes. What I'm looking at doing are 'skiffs', like ship's boats, that landing parties would use to drop in on something. I'd also like these to be as useful as possible as Tekumelyani aircars, as I'd like to have as few single-use models in the inventory as I can.

My thought is to have as much open deck as possible, with the idea of five to ten figures being able to stand on the open decks. ERB says that seats are not that big an issue, as the warriors clip their harnesses to the flyer, and I'll go with that. I'm experimenting with flat plywood ovals, with details glued to the bottom to hide the sockets for the stands - these will be dowels - and minimal stuff on the top deck so it does not get in the way. Working searchlights are an option; I have this kind of stuff in stock.

So, what would any and all of you like to see, if you were playing in one of my games?


Well for me, I would love to see the skiffs all tricked out with LED's and what not. As for the terrain, something rugged such as, lots of hills, and debris, maybe some type "cliffs and canyons" with lots of corners and hidey- holes.


Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 26, 2016, 11:56:48 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900088
10,000 pounds?
Yes, that's what I said. Want to see the math? ;)

Quote
For six or eight pre industrial people in robes or armor, with no tools other than some ropes, pitons, and hammers?
If it was easy, someone else would have already done it.

Quote
Down in a chamber deep in a labyrinthine underworld?
If it was conveniently situated you wouldn't need to move it.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900092
No forge.  No fuel, for that matter.
I was thinking that maybe, just maybe you might have known a fire mage.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900088
Oh, and Tekumelyani magic is HIGHLY allergic to metal.  Which reminds me of the time the apprentice sorceror blew himself up, killed half his companions, and deafened the rest...
Not being a mage and not having played anyone on Tekumel wealthy enough to have metal, I either didn't know or forgot that. What does metal do to magic? Also, I thought Chrine and the General both wore iron armor and ran about surrounded by a bunch of soldiers armed with iron quarrels. How did that effect his magic?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900092
I assume you mean by magic.  Metal makes magic backfire catastrophically, not just iron.  That's why military magic is such a specialized subset.
Magic would be one way, but I was thinking that if you only had some tools, you could cut it into strips and bend them in a rough circle.

Of course if only you had had a mage with you who knew some of that specialized military magic maybe he could have done something to melt or otherwise change the shape.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900092
No hammers, except light mountaineer-style hammers.  Actually, with metal being SO rare on Tekumel, the pitons were bronze and I believe the "hammers" were actually old style wooden mallets with brass faces.
Copper and gold are soft metals. Much softer than bronze or brass.

Quote
No chisels.  No bending brake, either.  Or anything much heavier than a mace.
What an unprepared bunch of gits you all turned out to be. Next time, maybe you'll know better.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900093
My point (and I do have one) is that this was a seasoned bunch of adventurers, but we had adventuring gear, not something to extract a five ton object.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda…all I hear, soldier, is a bunch of excuses for why you didn't get the job done.  :p

Quote from: chirine ba kal;900130
Chirine! Chirine make BOOM! :)
That's the spirit! No pain, no gain, I always say. Though it's happier if you can make the pain someone else's.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900093
My point (and I do have one) is that this was a seasoned bunch of adventurers, but we had adventuring gear, not something to extract a five ton object.
You sound a tad touchy on this subject oh Glorious General. If you think you weren’t going to get people taking the piss out of you and second guessing you, why then you’re a lot more naïve than you have any right to be at your age.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 26, 2016, 01:17:56 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900172
Thank you for the clarification.

I guess I didn't worry much about making the distinction clear because I thought it was clear, or that people would ask.  I frankly never dreamed that talking about one piss take would be enough to convince people that I had spent forty years running a game that was nothing but a collection of stupid jokes.

Well, it doesn't make much sense indeed, when you put it like that, and with everything in this thread...:)
But this thread is not that thread;).

Remember: Internet communication necessarily suffers from scarcity of available information. You've said one, two, or N things about yourself. What do those things say about you, when all you know is that?
That's the conclusion people are likely to make...
Remember again, some people might be even new to the site (I know I was at the time of reading that thread, or at least hadn't registered you much due to us posting in different threads).
What else would I base my observations on, other than what was in the thread? Oh yes: the fact that you waved away the objections of MAR Barker, known for writing one of the (Google said) most internally consistent settings out there...
Look at it from the bright side: I think I learned from that thread the name Tekumel, or at least improved my opinion on its creator:D!

Quote
And where, my bright young lad, were we to find a big rock?  The Ancients left a noticeable scarcity of loose debris in their structures.

...oh right. I was thinking an Underworld with more of the later structures. Well, Glorious General, then it's just too bad you didn't have someone with a warhammer!

Quote
Or in other words, we're Godsdamned player characters, don't you think we THOUGHT of all that?  That's what made the farting, fainting, and falling down so much fun.

I concede the point;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;900133

So, what would any and all of you like to see, if you were playing in one of my games?


I might be weird, but what I'd like to see is Barsoomian chess - complete with the rules, and the society of other chess-players.

It's however really unlikely to randomly have someone whose preferences match mine. So you might want to check it with your players;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 26, 2016, 02:50:52 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900124
My fault!!! I didn't catch the rhyme!!! (I feel like a fool, tonight...) :)


Not at all! Not one of my better compositions.:rolleyes: I don't think I got what was meant by a Tekumel ABC.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 26, 2016, 02:55:23 PM
Quote from: Bren;900190
Yes, that's what I said. Want to see the math? ;)

If it was easy, someone else would have already done it.

If it was conveniently situated you wouldn't need to move it.

I was thinking that maybe, just maybe you might have known a fire mage.

Not being a mage and not having played anyone on Tekumel wealthy enough to have metal, I either didn't know or forgot that. What does metal do to magic? Also, I thought Chrine and the General both wore iron armor and ran about surrounded by a bunch of soldiers armed with iron quarrels. How did that effect his magic?

Magic would be one way, but I was thinking that if you only had some tools, you could cut it into strips and bend them in a rough circle.

Of course if only you had had a mage with you who knew some of that specialized military magic maybe he could have done something to melt or otherwise change the shape.

Copper and gold are soft metals. Much softer than bronze or brass.

What an unprepared bunch of gits you all turned out to be. Next time, maybe you'll know better.


Coulda, woulda, shoulda…all I hear, soldier, is a bunch of excuses for why you didn't get the job done.  :p

That's the spirit! No pain, no gain, I always say. Though it's happier if you can make the pain someone else's.

You sound a tad touchy on this subject oh Glorious General. If you think you weren’t going to get people taking the piss out of you and second guessing you, why then you’re a lot more naïve than you have any right to be at your age.



;):D:D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 26, 2016, 02:59:18 PM
From AsenRG:No need to spend your vacation on that, Uncle:). It's nothing urgent.

I will be back to you - we're having issues with the e-mail transfer.

Glad there's technical progress...
But now you're making me wonder what is the colour of a thoat's tongue:D!


Same here; I'm going back and looking through all the books to see if I can't find anything/

I can totally relate to Ambereen's position, too, especially after reading your memories of being a Tekumeli editor and publisher:p. It's too bad it doesn't work for some of us, but that's simply our problem, and we should solve it ourselves.

Same here. She's pretty disconnected from the thing. We'll have to see what happens in the future.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 26, 2016, 03:00:38 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;900151
Uncle,

What would I like to see? I would love to go to Barsoom, a mission into the Jakallan Underworld, exploring the under-the-temple scenario, or even being in command of my own Legion in a battle, you also mentioned the sakbe road, an adventure/battle on or around that would be neat!!! I could go on...!!!

H;0)


This, we can do. And out of inventory, too...:)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 26, 2016, 03:04:00 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900128
Oh, tell me about it. I've had five years of gonzo visitors like this, all of whom have yet to come up with anything solid. It's getting to the point where I'm requiring references on 'cold calls'.

I think that the "inappropriate shelving" comment made by a first-time visitor was my favorite; I was a trifle nettled by it, as the shelves in the game lounge were one of the very first projects that Third Daughter and I did together. I was also a little startled; most first-time visitors to somebody's house don't kick off their visit by insulting their host. But hey; what do I know, eh? :rolleyes:


Well I hope you immediately showed him the door. What an arse hole. I don't understand what happened to manners? Who does this kind of thing and think that it's OK? Chirine, as I've said before, you have the patience of Job. I would not not have appreciated that type of comment at all.:mad:

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 26, 2016, 03:05:02 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;900178
Well for me, I would love to see the skiffs all tricked out with LED's and what not. As for the terrain, something rugged such as, lots of hills, and debris, maybe some type "cliffs and canyons" with lots of corners and hidey- holes.


Shemek.


Right. The Helium skiffs will have working beacons, and I'll see what else I have in stock. I have got a bunch of tiny laser pointers, and the notion of putting them on swivel mounts comes to mind. I have some laser-cut parts that were originally intended for a project that got abandoned, and I might use those as well.

Agreed about the scenery and terrain. I have a pretty good inventory of cast resin rocks that were intended for hermit crabs, and these have all the nooks and crannies you could ask for - as well as Mysterious Caves, laden with Secret Treasures and Dire Perils. And a few Ancient Ruins, too, for you to explore... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 26, 2016, 03:11:21 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900130
Chirine! Chirine make BOOM! :)


I don't know why but this  reminds of a scene and line from one my favourite movies:

" ... I like big fat men like you. When they fall down they make a lot of noise. And sometimes they don't get up". 10 xp for anyone who gets the reference.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 26, 2016, 03:14:31 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900230
Right. The Helium skiffs will have working beacons, and I'll see what else I have in stock. I have got a bunch of tiny laser pointers, and the notion of putting them on swivel mounts comes to mind. I have some laser-cut parts that were originally intended for a project that got abandoned, and I might use those as well.

Agreed about the scenery and terrain. I have a pretty good inventory of cast resin rocks that were intended for hermit crabs, and these have all the nooks and crannies you could ask for - as well as Mysterious Caves, laden with Secret Treasures and Dire Perils. And a few Ancient Ruins, too, for you to explore... :)

Way cool!!! I can't wait to see what you come up with.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: JesterRaiin on May 26, 2016, 03:18:16 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;900231
I don't know why but this  reminds of a scene and line from one my favourite movies:

" ... I like big fat men like you. When they fall down they make a lot of noise. And sometimes they don't get up". 10 xp for anyone who gets the reference.

Shemek.

:cool:

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/52/26/c4/5226c402b678ef3852dc0a44f4ab5d21.jpg)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 26, 2016, 03:20:42 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;900206
I might be weird, but what I'd like to see is Barsoomian chess - complete with the rules, and the society of other chess-players.

It's however really unlikely to randomly have someone whose preferences match mine. So you might want to check it with your players;).

I'll dig around; I don't think that there is a complete set of rules for jetan. I'll check the ERBzine webste...

Understood; I don't have any players, these days. The group foundered on the insistence of the 'older' / 'more senior' players of interjecting their LGBT - heavy on the G, as the Ls, Bs, and Ts are not part of their clique - politics into every aspect of the game group. There was even talk of having quotas of 'certified LGBT people', so that the group was "properly inclusive". My definition of 'inclusive' is 'anybody who wants to play is welcome', but that allows the wrong kind of people into the group. I'm also not an elitist, but a populist, which is also apparently anathema to the politically correct. This attitude drove out he 'younger' / 'less senior players'; they got tired of the "All Gay, All the time" and stopped showing up for games.

What I've done, since the whole thing blew up back in late December, is simply let those who want to game here organize up their own group - "If you don't like what I do in my own house, organize up your own game group and I'll run something." Since the vast majority of gamers couldn't organize their way out of a wet paper bag, it's been very quiet hereabouts.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 26, 2016, 03:23:27 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900045
That's what was being muttered down my end of the table,
but Eyloa wanted the thing for the magical glyphs and inscriptions to it had to be kept intact.
It's still down there, as far as I know.


I can totally see that.
Whatever became of Eyloa? "E" is for Eyloa who was turned into a wee blue fishy by the Lord Fu Shi'i.
Might a good adventure for Lord Chirine to send low level guys on?

Shemek.

(Take my fish, please!)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 26, 2016, 03:25:37 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;900229
Well I hope you immediately showed him the door. What an arse hole. I don't understand what happened to manners? Who does this kind of thing and think that it's OK? Chirine, as I've said before, you have the patience of Job. I would not not have appreciated that type of comment at all.:mad:

Shemek.

I put up with it for a while longer, on their later visits. I did eventually drop them, after yet more provocations. I take the position that laughter is the bane of tyrants (I forget who originally said that) so I had my revenge; I did a set of miniatures of the four of them, my chief tormentors. They now appear as a random encounter for players to boggle at. Figures by Reaper, paint and satire by me... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 26, 2016, 03:26:23 PM
Quote from: JesterRaiin;900234
:cool:

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/52/26/c4/5226c402b678ef3852dc0a44f4ab5d21.jpg)


Indeed!!! And an extra 10 points for such a fine picture.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 26, 2016, 03:28:58 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;900231
I don't know why but this  reminds of a scene and line from one my favourite movies:

" ... I like big fat men like you. When they fall down they make a lot of noise. And sometimes they don't get up". 10 xp for anyone who gets the reference.

Shemek.

"A Fist Full Of Kaitars"?

"For A Few Kaitars More"?

"The Good, The Bad, And The Ahoggya"?

I've run all three as adventures, and I've worn my serape while doing it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 26, 2016, 03:31:03 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;900236
I can totally see that.
Whatever became of Eyloa? "E" is for Eyloa who was turned into a wee blue fishy by the Lord Fu Shi'i.
Might a good adventure for Lord Chirine to send low level guys on?

Shemek.

(Take my fish, please!)

He's lurking around the Tlashte Heights in Livyanu, being am eccentric recluse wizard. (No change, there.) Still the same grumpy look too, and the same erratic sorcery.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 26, 2016, 03:38:41 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900241
"A Fist Full Of Kaitars"?

"For A Few Kaitars More"?

"The Good, The Bad, And The Ahoggya"?

I've run all three as adventures, and I've worn my serape while doing it.


Hot Damn! I would have loved to have played in those games. I don't know what it is about this film but as soon as I hear the music I've just got to sit and watch it. Would you mind if I stole your idea for my group? I know they would get a kick out of " The Good, The Bad, And The Ahoggya ":D

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 26, 2016, 04:47:57 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;900247
Hot Damn! I would have loved to have played in those games. I don't know what it is about this film but as soon as I hear the music I've just got to sit and watch it. Would you mind if I stole your idea for my group? I know they would get a kick out of " The Good, The Bad, And The Ahoggya ":D

Shemek.



They were quite good games, if I do say so myself. I used to watch a lot of spaghetti Westerns, so I had the plots down cold. The players I had, at that time, had never seen any of them - too 'low brow', I was told. So, it was a great time.

Fell free to lift all three! I used them entirely according to the script, so they are easy to run. Add Tekumelyani details to suit, of course. If you are really feeling cinematic, I hear that two Tsolyani couriers near Sunraya have been murdered, and the OAL is sending a senior officer to investigate. The locals are rounding up the usual suspects. Everybody goes to Ri'ick's Muglavyani Canversarai, of course, where the local prefect is shocked - shocked, I tell you! - to discover that gambling is going on there. Much derring-do occurs. In the climactic scene at the tubeway car station, Molkar hi Strasser is killed, and the prefect orders more of the usual suspects arrested. Ri'ick and the prefect leave, intending to fight with the Yan Koryani against the Tsolyani. It's the start of a beautiful friendship.

What was utterly hysterical about this adventure was that the players just didn't get it, and just didn't get it for weeks. I was finally reduced to having the guy playing the harp in the place do "As Time Goes By" to let them know what was happening. I laughed my fool head off for over a month. I played the script as is, and even had the bit with the 'very special friend of Ri'ick' scene.

I do a very good Ri'ick and the prefect, I am told.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 26, 2016, 05:16:40 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900227
From AsenRG:No need to spend your vacation on that, Uncle:). It's nothing urgent.

I will be back to you - we're having issues with the e-mail transfer.

Glad there's technical progress...
But now you're making me wonder what is the colour of a thoat's tongue:D!


Same here; I'm going back and looking through all the books to see if I can't find anything/

I can totally relate to Ambereen's position, too, especially after reading your memories of being a Tekumeli editor and publisher:p. It's too bad it doesn't work for some of us, but that's simply our problem, and we should solve it ourselves.

Same here. She's pretty disconnected from the thing. We'll have to see what happens in the future.

I'd just paint them white.
Why white? Well, why not:D?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;900235
I'll dig around; I don't think that there is a complete set of rules for jetan. I'll check the ERBzine webste...

It's in the Chessmen of Mars.
Quote

Following the meal Dejah Thoris and The Warlord played at jetan, the Barsoomian game of chess, which is played upon a board of a hundred alternate black and orange squares. One player has twenty black pieces, the other, twenty orange pieces. A brief description of the game may interest those Earth readers who care for chess, and will not be lost upon those who pursue this narrative to its conclusion, since before they are done they will find that a knowledge of jetan will add to the interest and the thrills that are in store for them.

The men are placed upon the board as in chess upon the first two rows next the players. In order from left to right on the line of squares nearest the players, the jetan pieces are Warrior, Padwar, Dwar, Flier, Chief, Princess, Flier, Dwar, Padwar, Warrior. In the next line all are Panthans except the end pieces, which are called Thoats, and represent mounted warriors.

The Panthans, which are represented as warriors with one feather, may move one space in any direction except backward; the Thoats, mounted warriors with three feathers, may move one straight and one diagonal, and may jump intervening pieces; Warriors, foot soldiers with two feathers, straight in any direction, or diagonally, two spaces; Padwars, lieutenants wearing two feathers, two diagonal in any direction, or combination; Dwars, captains wearing three feathers, three spaces straight in any direction, or combination; Fliers, represented by a propellor with three blades, three spaces in any direction, or combination, diagonally, and may jump intervening pieces; the Chief, indicated by a diadem with ten jewels, three spaces in any direction, straight, or diagonal; Princess, diadem with a single jewel, same as Chief, and can jump intervening pieces.

The game is won when a player places any of his pieces on the same square with his opponent's Princess, or when a Chief takes a Chief. It is drawn when a Chief is taken by any opposing piece other than the opposing Chief; or when both sides have been reduced to three pieces, or less, of equal value, and the game is not terminated in the following ten moves, five apiece. This is but a general outline of the game, briefly stated.


Quote
Understood; I don't have any players, these days. The group foundered on the insistence of the 'older' / 'more senior' players of interjecting their LGBT - heavy on the G, as the Ls, Bs, and Ts are not part of their clique - politics into every aspect of the game group. There was even talk of having quotas of 'certified LGBT people', so that the group was "properly inclusive". My definition of 'inclusive' is 'anybody who wants to play is welcome', but that allows the wrong kind of people into the group. I'm also not an elitist, but a populist, which is also apparently anathema to the politically correct. This attitude drove out he 'younger' / 'less senior players'; they got tired of the "All Gay, All the time" and stopped showing up for games.

What I've done, since the whole thing blew up back in late December, is simply let those who want to game here organize up their own group - "If you don't like what I do in my own house, organize up your own game group and I'll run something." Since the vast majority of gamers couldn't organize their way out of a wet paper bag, it's been very quiet hereabouts.

Yeah, those player sucked, from what I've heard. Now you just need to start another group...:)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;900238
I put up with it for a while longer, on their later visits. I did eventually drop them, after yet more provocations. I take the position that laughter is the bane of tyrants (I forget who originally said that) so I had my revenge; I did a set of miniatures of the four of them, my chief tormentors. They now appear as a random encounter for players to boggle at. Figures by Reaper, paint and satire by me... :)

Excellent!
I admit I've put annoying former bosses a few times in my games, but my players usually don't pay them attention, it's as if they knew...:D

Quote from: chirine ba kal;900258
They were quite good games, if I do say so myself. I used to watch a lot of spaghetti Westerns, so I had the plots down cold. The player I had, at that time, had never seen any of them - too 'low brow', I was told. So, it was a great time.

Fell free to lift all three! I used them entirely according to the script, so they are easy to run. Add Tekumelyani details to suit, of course. If you are really feeling cinematic, I hear that two Tsolyani couriers near Sunraya have been murdered, and the OAL is sending a senior officer to investigate. The locals are rounding up the usual suspects. Everybody goes to Ri'ick's Muglavyani Canversarai, of course, where the local prefect is shocked - shocked, I tell you! - to discover that gambling is going on there. Much derring-do occurs. In the climactic scene at the tubeway car station, Molkar hi Strasser is killed, and the prefect orders more of the usual suspects arrested. Ri'ick and the prefect leave, intending to fight with the Yan Koryani against the Tsolyani. It's the start of a beautiful friendship.

What was utterly hysterical about this adventure was that the players just didn't get it, and just didn't get it for weeks. I was finally reduced to having the guy playing the harp in the place do "As Time Goes By" to let them know what was happening. I laughed my fool head off for over a month. I played the script as is, and even had the bit with the 'very special friend of Ri'ick' scene.

I do a very good Ri'ick and the prefect, I am told.

That's...that's...I need to run something like this now:D!
We'll see how it would go;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 26, 2016, 08:19:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900228
This, we can do. And out of inventory, too...:)


One of these days, I will give notice of an impending visit...!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 26, 2016, 10:36:17 PM
Quote from: Bren;900190

You sound a tad touchy on this subject oh Glorious General. If you think you weren’t going to get people taking the piss out of you and second guessing you, why then you’re a lot more naïve than you have any right to be at your age.


Why, not a bit of it, Bunky old chum!*

My original post was a bit terse, I admit.  Perhaps if I fill in some details it will make it clearer why this is a source of endless amusement to me.

This was some years back.  It was even before I became the Glorious General; I was merely the Mighty Molkar at the time, and Chirine and I were still with the PVP loving/"Roleplaying is a SERIOUS NARTFORM" group when we played.

So we were headed north on some mission or the other.  We were travelling as military officers; this is important because it meant that what we had with us is what Tsolyani military officers had with them, and none of us were part of a sappers' or engineers' legion.

Someplace between our origination point and our destination, we learned of some old something or other that seemed for some reason good to explore.  In the process of exploring we eventually found deep underground some shrine to Vimuhla.  In it we found an immense lead slab.  Investigation proved that it was the aforementioned red gold slab with an inch or two of lead covering it.  Not only that, but red gold is specially precious to Vimuhla... no idea why, probably he likes the colors.  The gods act like spoiled six year olds sometimes.

Not only is this a slab of Vimuhla red gold, but it's in a shrine of Vimuhla, and the slab is covered with Vimuhla glyphs, Vimuhla hieroglypics, Vimuhla sigils, Vimuhla icons, Vimuhla runes, etc, etc, etc.

All the characters worshipped Vimuhla except Eyola the crazy wizard, and me.  This group of PCs (except Chirine and me) were Prince Mirusiya's "New Men," who were rising through the ranks by dint of sycophancy.  So every step up the ladder and every gift they got, they rubbed in my face.  Repeatedly.  A little joshing among friends was one thing, but this had long since become tiresome (and was, in fact, a major reason for me leaving that group.)  Although Chrine did indeed worship Vimuhla, he was politically of the "Imperial Party," as was I.  (Our motto: "We serve the Petal Throne, whoever sits on it.")  That, plus he had this very old fashioned notion that advancement should come from merit and achievement rather than arse-kissing; thus, he was also scorned and derided by the "New Men."

Well, Kardarsha was incredibly politically ambitious, and he saw this huge Sacred Relic of Vimuhla (tm) to be a great opportunity to get close to some prime asses to kiss.  Between he and Eyola kyoodling about how it was a marvelous magic item, cutting the thing up was Right Out.  Now, Kutume agreed with me that we should try to break it up; he only wanted the gold.  But it was made clear that was not going to happen.  At that point I spoke up and made clear that I had a part interest in this artifact.  I had no clan yet and was a medium level field officer (captain or major.)  I still stayed at the barracks in our home city because I had noplace else, so the gold meant a lot to me.  Kadarsha agreed to buy off my interest.

Now, remember, I worship Karanan... the rival god to Vimuhla.  I had less than no interest in helping carry a five ton decorative trivet for somebody else's aggrandizement.  They had made it clear to me many times that I had no part in what they were doing, so I decided to sit back and relax.  Further, Chirine, though of the same temple, thought quite rightly that this huge clumsy slab of uselessness had exactly fuckall to do with our mission and orders.

Payback may ride a slow Chlen cart, but she's a real bitch when she arrives.

See, as I said before, we were traveling as a military entourage, not a combat engineer battalion.

Also, at least back then, remember that RPGs were a game of wits between the referee and players, both trying to outsmart the other.  Sure, you can throw a thousand orcs at your first level PCs and kill them, but ANYBODY can do that.  As Lord Downey said to Mister Teatime, "It..... lacked elegance."  And once in a while, you get a situation where you just know that one of the players is WAY ahead of the others.  In this case, it was the ref.  I could see by the look in his eyes that Phil was WAY ahead of every idea the "New Men" had.

So, I sit back and relax, and Chirine the Ever-Prepared breaks out the bread substitute, the gribble-grub flavored icky-wax, and the fresh-squeezed  Hoob-melon juice and we proceed to make a light tiffin.

Because I know damn well that this enormous metal slab sitting on top a stone platform weighs multiple tons, and we have no tools.

So the entire dialogue above went pretty much as written, with the "New Men" on one side and Phil on the other.

"Can we cut it up!"
Kadarsha:  "ABSOLUTELY not."
New Men:  "Can we pry it off?"
Me:  "Who brought crowbars?"
Chirine:  "Phil, is a crowbar standard equipment for any of our legions?"
Phil:  (rolling dice) "No crowbars."
New Men: (to me) "ASSHOLE!"
New Men:  "Let's lift it up!"
Phil:  "Okay, you can try."
* roll * "You lift it about an inch by one corner.  Then it slips and you drop it."
Me:  "Does anybody lose a finger?"
New Men: (to me) "ASSHOLE!"
New Men:  "If we stand it up on end we can roll it out."
Me: "Roll it on what?"
Phil:  "Yes, who brought rollers?  Anyone?"
New Men: (to me) "ASSHOLE!"

Et cetera.

So, all the things people mentioned upstream happened... and like I said, no logs, no chisels, no wheels, no nothin', no shit, no foolin'.  After all, only "D&D thugs" carry dungeoneering gear, not Nartistic ROLE PLAYERS!

This went on for several hours as Chirine and I laughed our tonkers off, watching the "New Men" get more and more frustrated, and their ideas get more and more Rube Goldberg-esque.  Eventually, one of them realized like Bren said, "it's been here for 10,000 years, it'll keep for a week."

It still amuses the hell out of me.





*10,000 XP to the first one who can identify this reference without looking it up!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 26, 2016, 10:38:10 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900258

What was utterly hysterical about this adventure was that the players just didn't get it, and just didn't get it for weeks. I was finally reduced to having the guy playing the harp in the place do "As Time Goes By" to let them know what was happening. I laughed my fool head off for over a month. I played the script as is, and even had the bit with the 'very special friend of Ri'ick' scene.

I do a very good Ri'ick and the prefect, I am told.


This is one of the things that never ceases to amaze me.  People just don't think!  I have lost count of the number of allusions in Chirine's games that have gone right by everybody there.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 26, 2016, 11:10:19 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900305
Why, not a bit of it, Bunky old chum!
You seem in much better humor now. Perhaps because it is now after Beer o'clock?

That is an amusing story. Did they ever actually fork over real money for your "share" of the red gold wall decoration? Even after they figured out they weren't getting out with it?

Quote
*
Well it's not Bored of the Rings or Monty Python and it doesn't sound like Retief, so I'm guessing it's from that satirical books series about the grandiloquent British twit you two periodically mention.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900306
This is one of the things that never ceases to amaze me.  People just don't think!  I have lost count of the number of allusions in Chirine's games that have gone right by everybody there.
It's not like he was being at all subtle. He named the NPC Rick and the casino bar Rick's Place. Does no one in that group actually pronounce the NPCs' names? :rolleyes:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 26, 2016, 11:16:48 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900241
"A Fist Full Of Kaitars"?

"For A Few Kaitars More"?

"The Good, The Bad, And The Ahoggya"?

I've run all three as adventures, and I've worn my serape while doing it.


Excellent!!! Dear old Dad taught me to enjoy spaghetti at an early age. Later on I found out about "the man with no name" swords and all on my own. Such good stuff. It's been awhile, but I'm about due for the good old, please kind Lords, help us protect our poor village from the bandits...swords or guns, what the heck, I'll have to watch both!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 26, 2016, 11:57:39 PM
I think my terseness must have come across as grumpiness when I didn't intend it to.

They came back later and finally got out Vimuhla's Collector Plate, and yeah, I got about 5000 Khiatars.  Way undervalued, but clanless barbarians can't be choosers.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 27, 2016, 12:52:59 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;900265
I'd just paint them white.
Why white? Well, why not:D?

It's in the Chessmen of Mars.

Yeah, those player sucked, from what I've heard. Now you just need to start another group...:)

Excellent!
I admit I've put annoying former bosses a few times in my games, but my players usually don't pay them attention, it's as if they knew...:D

That's...that's...I need to run something like this now:D!
We'll see how it would go;).


Oh! I'll try is, and see how they look.

Thank you - would be easy to make a set, too... :)

Agreed. I'll see what happens in the future; I'm a little disenchanted, right now.

And you should. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 27, 2016, 12:56:19 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;900287
One of these days, I will give notice of an impending visit...!!!

H;0)

Sounds good; give me a couple of weeks' notice, so I can get the vacation time off. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 27, 2016, 12:59:13 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900305
So, I sit back and relax, and Chirine the Ever-Prepared breaks out the bread substitute, the gribble-grub flavored icky-wax, and the fresh-squeezed  Hoob-melon juice and we proceed to make a light tiffin.

And I even have a tiffin box, too. Not that I would ever be unprepared, of course. Table for four? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 27, 2016, 01:01:39 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900314
I think my terseness must have come across as grumpiness when I didn't intend it to.

They came back later and finally got out Vimuhla's Collector Plate, and yeah, I got about 5000 Khiatars.  Way undervalued, but clanless barbarians can't be choosers.

Quite whining; at least you got some cash. I got poisoned with Zu'ur, because they thought that it would be funny. Had to have very stern words with Phil over that one, but there were advantages to the plot. Tsahul and Nyssa, to name two; their barge, to name another. Lovely trip down the Missuma to Jakalla, where we picked up the boat (and Vrisa) and went off to the Southern Continent.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 27, 2016, 01:06:05 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;900310
Excellent!!! Dear old Dad taught me to enjoy spaghetti at an early age. Later on I found out about "the man with no name" swords and all on my own. Such good stuff. It's been awhile, but I'm about due for the good old, please kind Lords, help us protect our poor village from the bandits...swords or guns, what the heck, I'll have to watch both!!!

H:0)


And don't forget Kurusawa's "Hidden Fortress", either. Especially today, thirty-nine years ago, when the film student released his homage to the master... :)

What's not to like? Retired general living in seclusion, disguised princess on the run, two comic sidekicks, action, adventure, and romance. With some fancy sword fighting thrown in for the fun of it, too...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 27, 2016, 01:08:00 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900306
This is one of the things that never ceases to amaze me.  People just don't think!  I have lost count of the number of allusions in Chirine's games that have gone right by everybody there.


Oh, I'd have to agree with this. I've had so much go right by people - who keep telling me how culturally savvy and hip they are, too.

Ah. me. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 27, 2016, 01:13:38 AM
Quote from: Bren;900309

It's not like he was being at all subtle. He named the NPC Rick and the casino bar Rick's Place. Does no one in that group actually pronounce the NPCs' names? :rolleyes:


Subtle? What subtle? I did everything except do a miniature billboard saying "Welcome To Morocco!", hoist a Tricolor (they gave a fictional one, but still), and wore a fez. I did do all the NPCs voices, and pretty well at that, and they still didn't get it over several weeks of game sessions. I used all the film's dialog, too. Word for word.

You got me as to why they didn't catch it. I'm still baffled, decades later.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 27, 2016, 01:23:08 AM
I've had a very pleasant afternoon; got the window air conditioners in, so I could say I was doing something useful, but the real fun of the day is pictured below. Got the ovals at the crafts store for a whole $4, everything else came out of stock. The arched brackets were salvaged from a project that never got off the ground, and the brass rod for the railings were left over from a project we did for Prince a lot time ago. Everything else is from the parts bins.

Control stands and weapons mounts are on, and the supports with the steel plates for the magnets for the flight stands are all on and coat of black primer on the top side. I still have to add the lower detail, flagstaffs, and build some accessories - these, things like radium cannon and such, will be on steel / magnets so I can trade them out for different games. The two large skiffs can carry up to 12, the four small ones up to six based figures. No railings for the bows, so the weapons can be traversed and the players can jump off more quickly.

Grappling hooks? Do I need grappling hooks?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 27, 2016, 01:24:53 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900324
And don't forget Kurusawa's "Hidden Fortress", either. Especially today, thirty-nine years ago, when the film student released his homage to the master... :)

What's not to like? Retired general living in seclusion, disguised princess on the run, two comic sidekicks, action, adventure, and romance. With some fancy sword fighting thrown in for the fun of it, too...


Sounds familiar...too bad he couldn't keep it up!!! What came later, was a big disappointmet to me...☹️ I had such grand visions as a young lad! Instead, I got a silly alien(among other things). Very different from "comic sidekicks". But that's for another thread and my opinion.

H:0)

PS Akira is fantastic. Yojimbo is one of my all time favorites!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 27, 2016, 01:28:05 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900323
Quite whining; at least you got some cash. I got poisoned with Zu'ur, because they thought that it would be funny. Had to have very stern words with Phil over that one, but there were advantages to the plot. Tsahul and Nyssa, to name two; their barge, to name another. Lovely trip down the Missuma to Jakalla, where we picked up the boat (and Vrisa) and went off to the Southern Continent.

SHIT!  I'd forgotten about that.

For those of you not up on Tekumelyani pharmaceuticals this is roughly like injecting somebody with pure heroin "as a joke."

We left that group soon after, as I recall.

I mean, shortening one of the legs on your war merino is one thing; what those clowns did wasn't even close to funny, though.

Folks, now you know why Chirine and I responded with undisguised glee when Qutmu took the high ride.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 27, 2016, 01:29:21 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900327
I've had a very pleasant afternoon; got the window air conditioners in, so I could say I was doing something useful, but the real fun of the day is pictured below. Got the ovals at the crafts store for a whole $4, everything else came out of stock. The arched brackets were salvaged from a project that never got off the ground, and the brass rod for the railings were left over from a project we did for Prince a lot time ago. Everything else is from the parts bins.

Control stands and weapons mounts are on, and the supports with the steel plates for the magnets for the flight stands are all on and coat of black primer on the top side. I still have to add the lower detail, flagstaffs, and build some accessories - these, things like radium cannon and such, will be on steel / magnets so I can trade them out for different games. The two large skiffs can carry up to 12, the four small ones up to six based figures. No railings for the bows, so the weapons can be traversed and the players can jump off more quickly.

Grappling hooks? Do I need grappling hooks?

You've not lost your skill, Montressor.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 27, 2016, 01:32:20 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;900328
Sounds familiar...too bad he couldn't keep it up!!! What came later, was a big disappointmet to me...☹️ I had such grand visions as a young lad! Instead, I got a silly alien(among other things). Very different from "comic sidekicks". But that's for another thread and my opinion.

H:0)

PS Akira is fantastic. Yojimbo is one of my all time favorites!!!

"Ran". "Kagumusha". And of, course, "Seven Samurai". :) All my favorites! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 27, 2016, 01:35:15 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900329
SHIT!  I'd forgotten about that.

For those of you not up on Tekumelyani pharmaceuticals this is roughly like injecting somebody with pure heroin "as a joke."

We left that group soon after, as I recall.

I mean, shortening one of the legs on your war merino is one thing; what those clowns did wasn't even close to funny, though.

Folks, now you know why Chirine and I responded with undisguised glee when Qutmu took the high ride.

Yep. It was, as they say, the last straw. Jim Danielson and Rick Bjugen kind of read Phil the Riot Act, and we all moved away from the 'New Men' and let them stew in their own juices. Gaming was a lot more fun, the room was nicer, and we laughed a lot more.

They still think they're really funny, too. :rolleyes:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 27, 2016, 01:36:33 AM
And now for something completely different.

About ten miles away is a small hamlet called Cavour.  Sadly, they do not mine Cavourite there.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 27, 2016, 01:39:10 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900330
You've not lost your skill, Montressor.

(Bows to audience)

Thank you, thank you! This is bit of fun, like all the game stuff I do; the heroes have to be able to jump from deck to deck in mid-air, otherwise it just isn't Barsoom. I think they are both generic and Art Deco enough to get by in Tekumel, as well, considering the number of times we went hither and thither by air. I mean, I have really good Tekumelyani ships - they even light up and wobble around, just like the real thing!

We aim to please, and run fun games. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 27, 2016, 01:54:18 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900334
And now for something completely different.

About ten miles away is a small hamlet called Cavour.  Sadly, they do not mine Cavourite there.


Straight out US 14 from Rochester, too. And you can't fool us; you don't mine Cavourite, you catch it in nets as it is released. Luckliy, we use the eighth ray to support our flyers. Other-planar energy for the air cars, of course. Nothing like modern science, I say! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 27, 2016, 07:20:22 AM
Aha, a Tekumel question:

Our somewhat disparate party are likely soon to "acquire" some copper swords from some Shedra who won't be having any further use for them. If they wanted to sell them, who would give the best price without being offended? Would the temple of Sarku like them, without bearing a grudge, or would they be better off selling them to someone else? These swords will be from ancient Shedra that have been buried for many years, so not someone's recent pet project.

(Current game is set around Katalal, if that matters)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 27, 2016, 07:53:59 AM
Lord Chirine,

Just a few quick questions. I understand that the shiny kaitar greases tha palm and gets things done on Tekumel. Is corruption more of an induvidual thing, or are certain groups more likely to be corrupt(poor tomb police,etc)?

Is that seen as corruption? If not what kinds of acts would be corrupt, besides having an undead army and taking the high ride...?

The Tomb Police answer to the OAL?

One last question, was the tubeway car system used by the elite and military primarily in Tekumel's past? The size of the cars got me thinking about this. And it seems to me many of the stations were private...

Thank you in advance,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 27, 2016, 01:43:12 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900337
Straight out US 14 from Rochester, too. And you can't fool us; you don't mine Cavourite, you catch it in nets as it is released. Luckliy, we use the eighth ray to support our flyers. Other-planar energy for the air cars, of course. Nothing like modern science, I say! :)


Silly me.  It's Upsy-Daisyum that's mined, not Cavourite.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on May 27, 2016, 01:46:32 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900364
Aha, a Tekumel question:

Our somewhat disparate party are likely soon to "acquire" some copper swords from some Shedra who won't be having any further use for them. If they wanted to sell them, who would give the best price without being offended? Would the temple of Sarku like them, without bearing a grudge, or would they be better off selling them to someone else? These swords will be from ancient Shedra that have been buried for many years, so not someone's recent pet project.

(Current game is set around Katalal, if that matters)


High and Dry I take it? Just ran my players through it last weekend. First time I have run a prepared scenario in about 30 years. My players loved it. And for some reason, they loved the copper swords, even though none of them are followers of Sarku.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 27, 2016, 01:53:41 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;900405
High and Dry I take it? Just ran my players through it last weekend. First time I have run a prepared scenario in about 30 years. My players loved it. And for some reason, they loved the copper swords, even though none of them are followers of Sarku.

Yup, that's the one. I was thinking that they might want to sell them off as we have one PC with a debt problem, and another with a hnequ weed addiction...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 27, 2016, 02:10:01 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900364
Aha, a Tekumel question:

Our somewhat disparate party are likely soon to "acquire" some copper swords from some Shedra who won't be having any further use for them. If they wanted to sell them, who would give the best price without being offended? Would the temple of Sarku like them, without bearing a grudge, or would they be better off selling them to someone else? These swords will be from ancient Shedra that have been buried for many years, so not someone's recent pet project.

(Current game is set around Katalal, if that matters)

I'd start off with the Temple of Sarku; ask somebody in the clan - the players should ask each of theirs - who to talk to in the Temple. It's highly likely that one of their clans knows somebody who knows somebody. Assuming that the swords were picked up in the Underworld, and nobody from the Temple - a living nobody, of course - got hurt, then it's 'lost and found' and the players are being good citizens by restoring lost property to the most likely owner. The Temple will, unless the players botch the discussion, coo happily and offer these fine, upstanding young people who have such a fine sense of decency a nice finder's fee in order to recompense them for their trouble. The players will get cash, and store up some favors and goodwill with the Temple. The Temple might also want to know where this forgotten shrine or tomb might be, but that's a separate negotiation.

If the Temple isn't interested - hardly likely - then it's the clans to see who's who on the local antiquities market, and if nobody bites there it's the local scrap metal dealers. Although the clan will buy the metal as metal, most likely.

Generally, unless there's a major incident or scandal, it's considered that 'What goes on in the Underworld, stays in the Underworld'. So, no grudges, and they'd just be happy to get the swords back down the Temple.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 27, 2016, 02:32:38 PM
From Hrugga:Lord Chirine,

Just a few quick questions. I understand that the shiny kaitar greases tha palm and gets things done on Tekumel. Is corruption more of an induvidual thing, or are certain groups more likely to be corrupt(poor tomb police,etc)?

We talked about this quite a while back, but it'll take you all day to scroll that far back, I think. Soooo...

The Western concept of 'corruption' is not what the Tekumelyani consider it to be. Gifts, donations, favors, and 'inducements' are the norm, where one does something nice for somebody and they do something nice for you. There is a line between this and out-and-out bribery, and it's a fine distinction; making a ten kaitar gift to the court to speed up the process is considered normal practice, trying to pay off the judges with a ten thousand kaitar bribe is not. Small gifts are part of the social process, like doing somebody a favor.

Everybody does this. Foe example, if I'm going down into the Underworld, I make sure to leave the tomb police commander an 'inducement', large enough so that he or she can share it with the troops, so that they'll remember to let me back up again - I might be in a hurry. Or like when I killed off some 'unlicensed' bandits; I gave the reward to my 'guide' and bearers as a gift for their good service, over and above what I was paying them. I routinely accept small gifts and favors from people who want something from me; I am considered a very honest and fair official because I do not misuse my position or authority and take advantage of people. It's well known that if, say, a very poor fisherman brings me a very nice fish as a gift, I make sure to compensate him or her for their trouble - that's their dinner for a day for their whole family, remember. A wealthy merchant, on the other hand, might give Their Ladyships some nice jewelry, as the merchant can afford it. Will I then remember the merchant? Yes. Will I do what he wants? Maybe. It depends on what he wants - anything like treason or tax evasion, is out.

Is that seen as corruption? If not what kinds of acts would be corrupt, besides having an undead army and taking the high ride...?

Treason, rebellion, tax evasion, and such are the really big crimes, and trying to bribe somebody to do these is right out. Remember that the concept of 'Noble Action' rules; one does one's duty without being 'induced' to do so - but any gifts are a nice perk. Think of it as tipping the waiter; it just happens at all levels of society. And intent makes a difference, too.

Does any of this help, or have I confused the issue?

The Tomb Police answer to the OAL?

Everybody answers to the OAL. In the normal run of things, the tomb police report to the city prefect, who answers to the city governor, who answers to bey Su, who answers to Avanthar, who answers to the Kolumel. If there's something going on that Avanthar is interested in the OAL will drop by the police post - which is something that the police will try to avoid!

One last question, was the tubeway car system used by the elite and military primarily in Tekumel's past? The size of the cars got me thinking about this. And it seems to me many of the stations were private...

Yes, to both. It was not 'public' transportation. That's what aircars and the intra-system space ships were used for.

Thank you in advance,

H:0)


You're welcome, as always! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 27, 2016, 02:33:31 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900404
Silly me.  It's Upsy-Daisyum that's mined, not Cavourite.

See, folks? You can learn something every day, here in this thread! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 27, 2016, 02:37:22 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;900405
High and Dry I take it? Just ran my players through it last weekend. First time I have run a prepared scenario in about 30 years. My players loved it. And for some reason, they loved the copper swords, even though none of them are followers of Sarku.

And this is why I like Jeff Dee's work. He's been in the game industry long enough that he can write a good adventure - and then fit the adventure into Tekumel and not the other way around. The thing plays well, moves along nicely, and gives the players a lot of local color without turning into a lecture on bilabial phoneme fricatives. Mark Pettigrew did much the same thing with "Tomb Complex of Nereshanbo", although that is not what I'd call or use as an introductory adventure.

Shows you what can happen when a professional gets involved.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 27, 2016, 02:38:04 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900406
Yup, that's the one. I was thinking that they might want to sell them off as we have one PC with a debt problem, and another with a hnequ weed addiction...

Player characters never seem to change, do they? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 27, 2016, 02:51:01 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900408
From Hrugga:Lord Chirine,

Just a few quick questions. I understand that the shiny kaitar greases tha palm and gets things done on Tekumel. Is corruption more of an induvidual thing, or are certain groups more likely to be corrupt(poor tomb police,etc)?

We talked about this quite a while back, but it'll take you all day to scroll that far back, I think. Soooo...

The Western concept of 'corruption' is not what the Tekumelyani consider it to be. Gifts, donations, favors, and 'inducements' are the norm, where one does something nice for somebody and they do something nice for you. There is a line between this and out-and-out bribery, and it's a fine distinction; making a ten kaitar gift to the court to speed up the process is considered normal practice, trying to pay off the judges with a ten thousand kaitar bribe is not. Small gifts are part of the social process, like doing somebody a favor.

Everybody does this. Foe example, if I'm going down into the Underworld, I make sure to leave the tomb police commander an 'inducement', large enough so that he or she can share it with the troops, so that they'll remember to let me back up again - I might be in a hurry. Or like when I killed off some 'unlicensed' bandits; I gave the reward to my 'guide' and bearers as a gift for their good service, over and above what I was paying them. I routinely accept small gifts and favors from people who want something from me; I am considered a very honest and fair official because I do not misuse my position or authority and take advantage of people. It's well known that if, say, a very poor fisherman brings me a very nice fish as a gift, I make sure to compensate him or her for their trouble - that's their dinner for a day for their whole family, remember. A wealthy merchant, on the other hand, might give Their Ladyships some nice jewelry, as the merchant can afford it. Will I then remember the merchant? Yes. Will I do what he wants? Maybe. It depends on what he wants - anything like treason or tax evasion, is out.

Is that seen as corruption? If not what kinds of acts would be corrupt, besides having an undead army and taking the high ride...?

Treason, rebellion, tax evasion, and such are the really big crimes, and trying to bribe somebody to do these is right out. Remember that the concept of 'Noble Action' rules; one does one's duty without being 'induced' to do so - but any gifts are a nice perk. Think of it as tipping the waiter; it just happens at all levels of society. And intent makes a difference, too.

Does any of this help, or have I confused the issue?

The Tomb Police answer to the OAL?

Everybody answers to the OAL. In the normal run of things, the tomb police report to the city prefect, who answers to the city governor, who answers to bey Su, who answers to Avanthar, who answers to the Kolumel. If there's something going on that Avanthar is interested in the OAL will drop by the police post - which is something that the police will try to avoid!

One last question, was the tubeway car system used by the elite and military primarily in Tekumel's past? The size of the cars got me thinking about this. And it seems to me many of the stations were private...

Yes, to both. It was not 'public' transportation. That's what aircars and the intra-system space ships were used for.

Thank you in advance,

H:0)


You're welcome, as always! :)


Very good thanks. I just wanted to make sure that my thoughts were in the right direction. I will be sure to pester you when something else enters my mind!!! Lucky I don't live next door!!! I'm sure the Misses would complain about that Hrugga boy never in his own home...Be well.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 27, 2016, 03:04:37 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;900412
Very good thanks. I just wanted to make sure that my thoughts were in the right direction. I will be sure to pester you when something else enters my mind!!! Lucky I don't live next door!!! I'm sure the Misses would complain about that Hrugga boy never in his own home...Be well.

H:0)

Great! Happy to help!

And no, the Missus would not mind; it would keep me occupied and out of mischief. Shall I put the kettle on? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 27, 2016, 04:17:11 PM
Ok, so, the OAL. How tough would a typical member be? What sort of gear would they have? If they came to a bunch of PCs and said "Hand over (X) in the name of the Emperor", how would they back it up (apart from people being expelled/impaled etc)? If the party did hand over (X), might they get a reward or the like (depends on X, I guess).

If someone does get something of great power I would imagine that Avanthar's response is to offer that person a large "inducement" (cash, land, title, dancing girls) in return for handing it over. If they don't then there is a problem...a messy problem.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 27, 2016, 04:18:31 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900411
Player characters never seem to change, do they? :)

What I like about Bethorm is that it encourages people to take these traits in a good way.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 27, 2016, 05:34:27 PM
From d(sqrt(-1)):
Ok, so, the OAL. How tough would a typical member be? What sort of gear would they have? If they came to a bunch of PCs and said "Hand over (X) in the name of the Emperor", how would they back it up (apart from people being expelled/impaled etc)? If the party did hand over (X), might they get a reward or the like (depends on X, I guess).

Right. Let's look at how the OAL is organized. Bear in mind that they do not do 'local policing'; that's the job of the city guards, tomb police, and the Governor's guards.

1) Military arm: 20 cohorts of heavy infantry, normally based in Bey Su, spear and shield, swords. Rarely seen outside the central empire- if on the frontiers, somebody's been stupid. Also 20 cohorts of the Legion of Potent Destiny, reformed to use the surplus of recruits available. Same details. Generally are above average soldiers.

2) Uniformed officers: stationed in every city of any size, they are in the usual OAL military-style uniform, swords as side-arms. Treat as FBI or CID types; do the public investigations. Generally as smart or smarter then PCs and most people. A cut above the usual 'beat cop' in the city forces.

3) Non-uniformed officers: generally, the people / detectives who do the covert investigations and watching people who need watching. Usually dressed in blue and gold, or regular clan colors depending on mission. Usually pretty tough; think senior FBI or the Sweeny -  from The Sweeny Todd, aka, The Heavy Mob, aka Scotland Yard's Flying Squad; famous for getting unwilling criminals to 'assist the police in their enquiries'. Inspector Morse with heavy weapons.

4) Covert officers: undercover operatives, who are assigned to keep an eye on troublesome people or trouble spots. Very, very tough and skilled; James Bond - Sean Connery or Daniel Craig, maybe Timothy Dalton - types with pretty wide powers. I know for a fact that there are three of these in my staff, and I am sure that there are more. equipped with anything needed for their roles, and personal weapons as needed.

In your example, the OAL can simply seize anything legally, but they really try hard not to - unless one has been caught red-handed, and it's needed for evidence. Normally, the OAL will make one a generous offer, and if that doesn't work, they make the offer to your clan or Temple, and they put the arm on you. It's always better to accept the offer - you get more, and you get on the list of cooperative people who can be trusted.

Ultimately, of course, they have the full power of the Imprium to call on, up to and including flattening the entire city with all the inhabitants still in it. They do try really hard not to be nasty, but do appreciate a good attitude and helpfulness.

If someone does get something of great power I would imagine that Avanthar's response is to offer that person a large "inducement" (cash, land, title, dancing girls) in return for handing it over. If they don't then there is a problem...a messy problem.

Yes, very much so. And it's usually the case that people take the goodies and do what the Imperium wants. However, the dancing girls are most likely going to be either reporting back to the OAL, or if one is a person of interest they will be a covert OAL operative.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 27, 2016, 05:36:53 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900425
What I like about Bethorm is that it encourages people to take these traits in a good way.

Yes, very much so, like the way Phil looked at it. he held that the player-characters are going to be the best and the brightest that the clan has available, and these are going to be given good training and skills to be the people that the clan send out to explore and have adventures. The high end of the bell curve, as it were. You want player-characters to think like player-characters, otherwise they are not going to come back alive.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 27, 2016, 05:47:10 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900408
The Western concept of 'corruption' is not what the Tekumelyani consider it to be. Gifts, donations, favors, and 'inducements' are the norm, where one does something nice for somebody and they do something nice for you. There is a line between this and out-and-out bribery, and it's a fine distinction; making a ten kaitar gift to the court to speed up the process is considered normal practice, trying to pay off the judges with a ten thousand kaitar bribe is not. Small gifts are part of the social process, like doing somebody a favor.

As a 19 year old kid from a small Midwestern farm town, it took me a LONG time to figure this out.  I'd never even HEARD the word "baksheesh".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on May 27, 2016, 07:04:49 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900364
Aha, a Tekumel question:

Our somewhat disparate party are likely soon to "acquire" some copper swords from some Shedra who won't be having any further use for them. If they wanted to sell them, who would give the best price without being offended? Would the temple of Sarku like them, without bearing a grudge, or would they be better off selling them to someone else? These swords will be from ancient Shedra that have been buried for many years, so not someone's recent pet project.

(Current game is set around Katalal, if that matters)

Color me confused. According to the copy of EPT rules that I have the Shedra have steel swords.
Now I had thought that the nano-bots used the iron from the corpse to extrude a thin film of steel over the composite blade following the ancient instructions coded in them.
There was even a possibility of "farming" Shedra for steel since it is so valuable but the Shedra swords themselves were not useful without the nano-bots.
It also explained how someone killed by one became one.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 27, 2016, 07:06:24 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900438
From d(sqrt(-1)):
Ok, so, the OAL. How tough would a typical member be? What sort of gear would they have? If they came to a bunch of PCs and said "Hand over (X) in the name of the Emperor", how would they back it up (apart from people being expelled/impaled etc)? If the party did hand over (X), might they get a reward or the like (depends on X, I guess).

Right. Let's look at how the OAL is organized. Bear in mind that they do not do 'local policing'; that's the job of the city guards, tomb police, and the Governor's guards.

1) Military arm: 20 cohorts of heavy infantry, normally based in Bey Su, spear and shield, swords. Rarely seen outside the central empire- if on the frontiers, somebody's been stupid. Also 20 cohorts of the Legion of Potent Destiny, reformed to use the surplus of recruits available. Same details. Generally are above average soldiers.

2) Uniformed officers: stationed in every city of any size, they are in the usual OAL military-style uniform, swords as side-arms. Treat as FBI or CID types; do the public investigations. Generally as smart or smarter then PCs and most people. A cut above the usual 'beat cop' in the city forces.

3) Non-uniformed officers: generally, the people / detectives who do the covert investigations and watching people who need watching. Usually dressed in blue and gold, or regular clan colors depending on mission. Usually pretty tough; think senior FBI or the Sweeny -  from The Sweeny Todd, aka, The Heavy Mob, aka Scotland Yard's Flying Squad; famous for getting unwilling criminals to 'assist the police in their enquiries'. Inspector Morse with heavy weapons.

4) Covert officers: undercover operatives, who are assigned to keep an eye on troublesome people or trouble spots. Very, very tough and skilled; James Bond - Sean Connery or Daniel Craig, maybe Timothy Dalton - types with pretty wide powers. I know for a fact that there are three of these in my staff, and I am sure that there are more. equipped with anything needed for their roles, and personal weapons as needed.

In your example, the OAL can simply seize anything legally, but they really try hard not to - unless one has been caught red-handed, and it's needed for evidence. Normally, the OAL will make one a generous offer, and if that doesn't work, they make the offer to your clan or Temple, and they put the arm on you. It's always better to accept the offer - you get more, and you get on the list of cooperative people who can be trusted.

Ultimately, of course, they have the full power of the Imprium to call on, up to and including flattening the entire city with all the inhabitants still in it. They do try really hard not to be nasty, but do appreciate a good attitude and helpfulness.

If someone does get something of great power I would imagine that Avanthar's response is to offer that person a large "inducement" (cash, land, title, dancing girls) in return for handing it over. If they don't then there is a problem...a messy problem.

Yes, very much so. And it's usually the case that people take the goodies and do what the Imperium wants. However, the dancing girls are most likely going to be either reporting back to the OAL, or if one is a person of interest they will be a covert OAL operative.

Great stuff, thank you.

In terms of gear, how about Eyes, Amulets, etc? Would they be reasonably common in, say ranks 3 & 4 in your list? Any other interesting magic/tech? Trying to gauge the level of power of some of these guys.

I'm now really tempted to give one of the PCs something REALLY good, and see what offers come in and what they will take. Your comment about dancing girls makes me think of an episode in the recent BBC series of Sherlock where Watson gets married, and his wife turns out to be some sort of super-agent sent to keep an eye on Holmes.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 27, 2016, 07:15:29 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;900446
Color me confused. According to the copy of EPT rules that I have the Shedra have steel swords.
Now I had thought that the nano-bots used the iron from the corpse to extrude a thin film of steel over the composite blade following the ancient instructions coded in them.
There was even a possibility of "farming" Shedra for steel since it is so valuable but the Shedra swords themselves were not useful without the nano-bots.
It also explained how someone killed by one became one.
=

The copper swords come from Jeff Dee's scenario. I guess it's partly because these are ancient Shedra 2000+ years old, and also perhaps because he didn't want to give out steel swords to starting characters.

I did wonder where Shedra got their steel swords from, but maybe it's a bit like the way Mrur changed. In EPT they must be burned to stop regeneration, but later on this was explained as necessary in order to prevent their controller from re-animating them.

I always assumed that newly created Shedra didn't really have anything though. Maybe there's a scenario there, where the PCs are newly created Shedra and they have to go and find some steel swords...perhaps Shedra can sense metals in some way so they can home in on steel stuff?

Like the idea of the nano-bots though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 27, 2016, 07:41:39 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;900446
Color me confused. According to the copy of EPT rules that I have the Shedra have steel swords.
Now I had thought that the nano-bots used the iron from the corpse to extrude a thin film of steel over the composite blade following the ancient instructions coded in them.
There was even a possibility of "farming" Shedra for steel since it is so valuable but the Shedra swords themselves were not useful without the nano-bots.
It also explained how someone killed by one became one.
=


What rules are those?  When Phil wrote EPT in 1974 "nano-bot" wasn't even a term.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 27, 2016, 07:51:52 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900305
Why, not a bit of it, Bunky old chum!*

My original post was a bit terse, I admit.  Perhaps if I fill in some details it will make it clearer why this is a source of endless amusement to me.

This was some years back.  It was even before I became the Glorious General; I was merely the Mighty Molkar at the time, and Chirine and I were still with the PVP loving/"Roleplaying is a SERIOUS NARTFORM" group when we played.

So we were headed north on some mission or the other.  We were travelling as military officers; this is important because it meant that what we had with us is what Tsolyani military officers had with them, and none of us were part of a sappers' or engineers' legion.

Someplace between our origination point and our destination, we learned of some old something or other that seemed for some reason good to explore.  In the process of exploring we eventually found deep underground some shrine to Vimuhla.  In it we found an immense lead slab.  Investigation proved that it was the aforementioned red gold slab with an inch or two of lead covering it.  Not only that, but red gold is specially precious to Vimuhla... no idea why, probably he likes the colors.  The gods act like spoiled six year olds sometimes.

Not only is this a slab of Vimuhla red gold, but it's in a shrine of Vimuhla, and the slab is covered with Vimuhla glyphs, Vimuhla hieroglypics, Vimuhla sigils, Vimuhla icons, Vimuhla runes, etc, etc, etc.

All the characters worshipped Vimuhla except Eyola the crazy wizard, and me.  This group of PCs (except Chirine and me) were Prince Mirusiya's "New Men," who were rising through the ranks by dint of sycophancy.  So every step up the ladder and every gift they got, they rubbed in my face.  Repeatedly.  A little joshing among friends was one thing, but this had long since become tiresome (and was, in fact, a major reason for me leaving that group.)  Although Chrine did indeed worship Vimuhla, he was politically of the "Imperial Party," as was I.  (Our motto: "We serve the Petal Throne, whoever sits on it.")  That, plus he had this very old fashioned notion that advancement should come from merit and achievement rather than arse-kissing; thus, he was also scorned and derided by the "New Men."

Well, Kardarsha was incredibly politically ambitious, and he saw this huge Sacred Relic of Vimuhla (tm) to be a great opportunity to get close to some prime asses to kiss.  Between he and Eyola kyoodling about how it was a marvelous magic item, cutting the thing up was Right Out.  Now, Kutume agreed with me that we should try to break it up; he only wanted the gold.  But it was made clear that was not going to happen.  At that point I spoke up and made clear that I had a part interest in this artifact.  I had no clan yet and was a medium level field officer (captain or major.)  I still stayed at the barracks in our home city because I had noplace else, so the gold meant a lot to me.  Kadarsha agreed to buy off my interest.

Now, remember, I worship Karanan... the rival god to Vimuhla.  I had less than no interest in helping carry a five ton decorative trivet for somebody else's aggrandizement.  They had made it clear to me many times that I had no part in what they were doing, so I decided to sit back and relax.  Further, Chirine, though of the same temple, thought quite rightly that this huge clumsy slab of uselessness had exactly fuckall to do with our mission and orders.

Payback may ride a slow Chlen cart, but she's a real bitch when she arrives.

See, as I said before, we were traveling as a military entourage, not a combat engineer battalion.

Also, at least back then, remember that RPGs were a game of wits between the referee and players, both trying to outsmart the other.  Sure, you can throw a thousand orcs at your first level PCs and kill them, but ANYBODY can do that.  As Lord Downey said to Mister Teatime, "It..... lacked elegance."  And once in a while, you get a situation where you just know that one of the players is WAY ahead of the others.  In this case, it was the ref.  I could see by the look in his eyes that Phil was WAY ahead of every idea the "New Men" had.

So, I sit back and relax, and Chirine the Ever-Prepared breaks out the bread substitute, the gribble-grub flavored icky-wax, and the fresh-squeezed  Hoob-melon juice and we proceed to make a light tiffin.

Because I know damn well that this enormous metal slab sitting on top a stone platform weighs multiple tons, and we have no tools.

So the entire dialogue above went pretty much as written, with the "New Men" on one side and Phil on the other.

"Can we cut it up!"
Kadarsha:  "ABSOLUTELY not."
New Men:  "Can we pry it off?"
Me:  "Who brought crowbars?"
Chirine:  "Phil, is a crowbar standard equipment for any of our legions?"
Phil:  (rolling dice) "No crowbars."
New Men: (to me) "ASSHOLE!"
New Men:  "Let's lift it up!"
Phil:  "Okay, you can try."
* roll * "You lift it about an inch by one corner.  Then it slips and you drop it."
Me:  "Does anybody lose a finger?"
New Men: (to me) "ASSHOLE!"
New Men:  "If we stand it up on end we can roll it out."
Me: "Roll it on what?"
Phil:  "Yes, who brought rollers?  Anyone?"
New Men: (to me) "ASSHOLE!"

Et cetera.

So, all the things people mentioned upstream happened... and like I said, no logs, no chisels, no wheels, no nothin', no shit, no foolin'.  After all, only "D&D thugs" carry dungeoneering gear, not Nartistic ROLE PLAYERS!

This went on for several hours as Chirine and I laughed our tonkers off, watching the "New Men" get more and more frustrated, and their ideas get more and more Rube Goldberg-esque.  Eventually, one of them realized like Bren said, "it's been here for 10,000 years, it'll keep for a week."

It still amuses the hell out of me.





*10,000 XP to the first one who can identify this reference without looking it up!


This is great, oh Glorious General.  Any more anecdotes you can share with us?
Damnit, I know that quote! I can't think of it right now, but I seem to recall the speaker has a glass of whisky in hand? It'll come to me. The little grey cells, they do not completely fail yet.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 27, 2016, 07:56:40 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900452
What rules are those?  When Phil wrote EPT in 1974 "nano-bot" wasn't even a term.


I was wondering what a "nano-bot" is too...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 27, 2016, 07:57:07 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900327
I've had a very pleasant afternoon; got the window air conditioners in, so I could say I was doing something useful, but the real fun of the day is pictured below. Got the ovals at the crafts store for a whole $4, everything else came out of stock. The arched brackets were salvaged from a project that never got off the ground, and the brass rod for the railings were left over from a project we did for Prince a lot time ago. Everything else is from the parts bins.

Control stands and weapons mounts are on, and the supports with the steel plates for the magnets for the flight stands are all on and coat of black primer on the top side. I still have to add the lower detail, flagstaffs, and build some accessories - these, things like radium cannon and such, will be on steel / magnets so I can trade them out for different games. The two large skiffs can carry up to 12, the four small ones up to six based figures. No railings for the bows, so the weapons can be traversed and the players can jump off more quickly.

Grappling hooks? Do I need grappling hooks?


Wow, most impressive sir! I like it. Grappling hooks are always a good thing for adventures, and for adventurers to have.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 27, 2016, 07:59:22 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900406
Yup, that's the one. I was thinking that they might want to sell them off as we have one PC with a debt problem, and another with a hnequ weed addiction...


What else is new? There's always a debt problem, and the addict is nice twist.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 27, 2016, 08:03:10 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900438
From d(sqrt(-1)):
Ok, so, the OAL. How tough would a typical member be? What sort of gear would they have? If they came to a bunch of PCs and said "Hand over (X) in the name of the Emperor", how would they back it up (apart from people being expelled/impaled etc)? If the party did hand over (X), might they get a reward or the like (depends on X, I guess).

Right. Let's look at how the OAL is organized. Bear in mind that they do not do 'local policing'; that's the job of the city guards, tomb police, and the Governor's guards.

1) Military arm: 20 cohorts of heavy infantry, normally based in Bey Su, spear and shield, swords. Rarely seen outside the central empire- if on the frontiers, somebody's been stupid. Also 20 cohorts of the Legion of Potent Destiny, reformed to use the surplus of recruits available. Same details. Generally are above average soldiers.

2) Uniformed officers: stationed in every city of any size, they are in the usual OAL military-style uniform, swords as side-arms. Treat as FBI or CID types; do the public investigations. Generally as smart or smarter then PCs and most people. A cut above the usual 'beat cop' in the city forces.

3) Non-uniformed officers: generally, the people / detectives who do the covert investigations and watching people who need watching. Usually dressed in blue and gold, or regular clan colors depending on mission. Usually pretty tough; think senior FBI or the Sweeny -  from The Sweeny Todd, aka, The Heavy Mob, aka Scotland Yard's Flying Squad; famous for getting unwilling criminals to 'assist the police in their enquiries'. Inspector Morse with heavy weapons.

4) Covert officers: undercover operatives, who are assigned to keep an eye on troublesome people or trouble spots. Very, very tough and skilled; James Bond - Sean Connery or Daniel Craig, maybe Timothy Dalton - types with pretty wide powers. I know for a fact that there are three of these in my staff, and I am sure that there are more. equipped with anything needed for their roles, and personal weapons as needed.

In your example, the OAL can simply seize anything legally, but they really try hard not to - unless one has been caught red-handed, and it's needed for evidence. Normally, the OAL will make one a generous offer, and if that doesn't work, they make the offer to your clan or Temple, and they put the arm on you. It's always better to accept the offer - you get more, and you get on the list of cooperative people who can be trusted.

Ultimately, of course, they have the full power of the Imprium to call on, up to and including flattening the entire city with all the inhabitants still in it. They do try really hard not to be nasty, but do appreciate a good attitude and helpfulness.

If someone does get something of great power I would imagine that Avanthar's response is to offer that person a large "inducement" (cash, land, title, dancing girls) in return for handing it over. If they don't then there is a problem...a messy problem.

Yes, very much so. And it's usually the case that people take the goodies and do what the Imperium wants. However, the dancing girls are most likely going to be either reporting back to the OAL, or if one is a person of interest they will be a covert OAL operative.


Could you tell us a bit more about #4. I would be interested in hearing about those 4 on your staff. First wife one of them...? Thanks.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 27, 2016, 08:16:45 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900438

3) Non-uniformed officers: generally, the people / detectives who do the covert investigations and watching people who need watching. Usually dressed in blue and gold, or regular clan colors depending on mission. Usually pretty tough; think senior FBI or the Sweeny -  from The Sweeny Todd, aka, The Heavy Mob, aka Scotland Yard's Flying Squad; famous for getting unwilling criminals to 'assist the police in their enquiries'. Inspector Morse with heavy weapons.




"We're The Sweeney, son, and we haven't had any dinner. You've kept us waiting, so unless you want a kicking you tell us where those photographs are."

Love this series! When I was a kid I used to secretly watch this show on Saturday nights, as me old dad would have given me a kicking if he caught me watching it back then :p Funny thing was I had no idea what the hell they were talking about half the time. Just loved the car chases. Well you brought a smile to my face tonight that's for sure!:D

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on May 27, 2016, 08:19:13 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900452
What rules are those?  When Phil wrote EPT in 1974 "nano-bot" wasn't even a term.

Copyright © 1975, 1987 by M.A.R. Barker

(20) Shedra "the Eater of the Dead"
These are flesh-eating undead. Grey and shrivelled almost beyond human form, they wander ceaselessly in the Underworld seeking food. They fight with steel swords, and a person slain by one of them will himself become a Shedra unless a Remove Curse spell is applied within two rounds. Once a victim has become a Shedra only a Wish spell or Divine Intervention will return him to living form.

"Nano-bot" is just a name for what would have been "magic" back then.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 27, 2016, 08:24:22 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;900461
Copyright © 1975, 1987 by M.A.R. Barker

(20) Shedra "the Eater of the Dead"
These are flesh-eating undead. Grey and shrivelled almost beyond human form, they wander ceaselessly in the Underworld seeking food. They fight with steel swords, and a person slain by one of them will himself become a Shedra unless a Remove Curse spell is applied within two rounds. Once a victim has become a Shedra only a Wish spell or Divine Intervention will return him to living
form.
=

This is how I've  always played them. It's funny when the party doesn't realize that they are Shedra and an NPC or PC gets slain. "Guess who's coming to dinner?"

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 27, 2016, 08:40:25 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;900461
"Nano-bot" is just a name for what would have been "magic" back then.
=

In other words no, that phrase does not appear in the EPT rules.

And I know what a "shedra" is.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 27, 2016, 08:46:21 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900424
Ok, so, the OAL. How tough would a typical member be? What sort of gear would they have? If they came to a bunch of PCs and said "Hand over (X) in the name of the Emperor", how would they back it up (apart from people being expelled/impaled etc)?


You need to look at this in terms of "you are living in a society," not "you are adventurers in a D&D game where brute force rules."  Or to phrase your question differently,

"How tough would a typical member of US Army intelligence be?  What sort of gear would they have?  If they came to a bunch of people and said "The US Government is requisitioning this," how would they back it up?"

For that matter, when the IRS says "Pay your income taxes," how do they back it up?  A typical IRS auditor probably isn't more than 2nd or 3rd level, after all.

My point is to look at the problem differently to reflect the ways that Tekumel can be played differently from the usual pseudo-medieval D&Desque fantasy.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 27, 2016, 08:54:20 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900469
You need to look at this in terms of "you are living in a society," not "you are adventurers in a D&D game where brute force rules."  Or to phrase your question differently,

"How tough would a typical member of US Army intelligence be?  What sort of gear would they have?  If they came to a bunch of people and said "The US Government is requisitioning this," how would they back it up?"

For that matter, when the IRS says "Pay your income taxes," how do they back it up?  A typical IRS auditor probably isn't more than 2nd or 3rd level, after all.

My point is to look at the problem differently to reflect the ways that Tekumel can be played differently from the usual pseudo-medieval D&Desque fantasy.

Oh sure, a large part of the game is the cultural side of the way things are done. In fact I tend to see it as a cross between the investigation (and nasty gribblies) of Call of Cthulhu with some D&D dungeons and other adventures thrown in, which makes an interesting mix.

OTOH it's always nice to know what the tax inspectors might be packing!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 27, 2016, 10:38:56 PM
The tax inspectors will not be packing anything, that's not their job.

If you give them trouble verbally, they will speak to your clan elders, who will sort you out in a hurry.

If you actually attack an Imperial servant, you have committed treason against the Petal Throne.  If the local prefect has a sense of humor, he may simply post a bounty on your head and sit back and watch the amusement.  Otherwise, they have tools at their disposal; I'm sure the OAL has operatives skilled in assassination.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 28, 2016, 02:13:49 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900440
As a 19 year old kid from a small Midwestern farm town, it took me a LONG time to figure this out.  I'd never even HEARD the word "baksheesh".


Gaming with Phil was most certainly an education, wasn't it? Wouldn't have missed it for the world... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 28, 2016, 02:20:40 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;900446
Color me confused. According to the copy of EPT rules that I have the Shedra have steel swords.
Now I had thought that the nano-bots used the iron from the corpse to extrude a thin film of steel over the composite blade following the ancient instructions coded in them.
There was even a possibility of "farming" Shedra for steel since it is so valuable but the Shedra swords themselves were not useful without the nano-bots.
It also explained how someone killed by one became one.
=


It's an artifact of thirty years of publishing. EPT has Shedra with steel swords because it gave a reason to attack them, a reason for players to get nice weapons, and gave the Shedra a bit of an advantage against PCs with chlen-hide weapons. Over time, Phil noted that certain temples have metals that are sacred to them, and which enhance the temple's sorcery. For Sarku it's copper, Ksarul and Dlamelish l silver, and Vimuhla the red gold of the Chakas.

You can play it any way you want to, of need to for the scenario.

About the nano-bots; this comes from the need on some folks' part to have everything explained in terms that they can relate to. If there are nano-bots, we don't know about them as PCs. Me, I don't worry about the mechanics of the thing; I play it as it lies.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 28, 2016, 02:27:01 AM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900448
The copper swords come from Jeff Dee's scenario. I guess it's partly because these are ancient Shedra 2000+ years old, and also perhaps because he didn't want to give out steel swords to starting characters.

I did wonder where Shedra got their steel swords from, but maybe it's a bit like the way Mrur changed. In EPT they must be burned to stop regeneration, but later on this was explained as necessary in order to prevent their controller from re-animating them.

I always assumed that newly created Shedra didn't really have anything though. Maybe there's a scenario there, where the PCs are newly created Shedra and they have to go and find some steel swords...perhaps Shedra can sense metals in some way so they can home in on steel stuff?

Like the idea of the nano-bots though.


See my previous response. I didn't much care if their swords were steel or copper; either way, I'm going to have to kill the little creeps. Either one works as it's 'inside the lines' of Phil's own game play. And, the Temple of Sarku is loaded with this kind of stuff, so they can issue either to the Shedra/

Always burned Mr'ur no matter what. If you don't, the bits and pieces continue to try to attack you, and the controlling Sarku people can keep them coming at you - maybe in bits, but they do keep coming. I was once chased for what seemed like ages by a skeletal hand, until I could get far enough away from it to strike a light off my lantern.

I hate Undead. Love to paint them up - I have lots and lots of them, as a GM never has enough Undead to menace the players - but I hate dealing with the cursed things.

I'd agree with new Shedra not having anything good. Which, of course, is why they attack the players... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 28, 2016, 02:33:01 AM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900447
Great stuff, thank you.

In terms of gear, how about Eyes, Amulets, etc? Would they be reasonably common in, say ranks 3 & 4 in your list? Any other interesting magic/tech? Trying to gauge the level of power of some of these guys.

I'm now really tempted to give one of the PCs something REALLY good, and see what offers come in and what they will take. Your comment about dancing girls makes me think of an episode in the recent BBC series of Sherlock where Watson gets married, and his wife turns out to be some sort of super-agent sent to keep an eye on Holmes.


You're welcome!

Daggers, like everybody else, and whatever stuff they thought they needed to get the job done. 'Detectives' usually don;t carry anything special, but the 'secret agents' might very well do so. How common? Depends on the threat level of what they are investigating, really. Could be anything from an Eye to the full assassin's kit.

Level? Pretty good. The uniformed and plainclothes type are about the same as most people, but the secret agents have to be good or they'd get dead. A lot depends on the level of your campaign; I'd make them a little better for the 'average' OAL person, and higher for the top people.

I'd love to see this, myself; had it happen a couple of times out at Phil's, with amusing and enriching consequences. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 28, 2016, 02:36:22 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;900456
Wow, most impressive sir! I like it. Grappling hooks are always a good thing for adventures, and for adventurers to have.

Shemek.


Thank you! Got the flags and flagstaffs done tonight, and started the weapons mounts. I didn't detail the decks with tread plate or anything like that, as they're mostly invisible under the figures' bases. I'll give it a dry-brushed bit of weathering and wear, and that'll be about it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 28, 2016, 02:47:17 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;900458
Could you tell us a bit more about #4. I would be interested in hearing about those 4 on your staff. First wife one of them...? Thanks.

H:0)


It's an intelligence agency, as well as a police agency. Spies, assassins, and whatever else the Imperium needs to keep itself in power. Sort of like me; I'm the military side of the thing.

As for the three in my household... Uh, oh. You've done it now.

- He's forgotten us already, and -
- that after our big dramatic entrance -
- in Book Five, too. And then the part -
- we play in the rest of that book, and -
- then going into Book Six. At least -
- the twins love us. -

Three farm girls from around Bey Su, who's lineage is the same as their clans, and who wear mysterious amulets around their necks. And one of them is a very good sorceress and her two friends are very good warriors - at least, Vrisa thinks so! And while I am not trying to tell you how to run your life, I'd suggest doing something nice for the girls next time you're in town; when they get cranky, my life gets difficult.

No, Si N'te is not an OAL person. She's the First Dancer of the Temple of Mretten, in the Nyemesel Isles, and I have no idea why she puts up with me.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 28, 2016, 02:50:20 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;900460
"We're The Sweeney, son, and we haven't had any dinner. You've kept us waiting, so unless you want a kicking you tell us where those photographs are."

Love this series! When I was a kid I used to secretly watch this show on Saturday nights, as me old dad would have given me a kicking if he caught me watching it back then :p Funny thing was I had no idea what the hell they were talking about half the time. Just loved the car chases. Well you brought a smile to my face tonight that's for sure!:D

Shemek


Wonderful! I never did get to see the series, as it never was shown here in the US. My model railway club in Wakefield has our annual dinner at the West Yorkshire Police Academy, and a bunch of our members are on the force. So, I get all the slang over the food... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 28, 2016, 02:54:14 AM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900470
Oh sure, a large part of the game is the cultural side of the way things are done. In fact I tend to see it as a cross between the investigation (and nasty gribblies) of Call of Cthulhu with some D&D dungeons and other adventures thrown in, which makes an interesting mix.

OTOH it's always nice to know what the tax inspectors might be packing!


Oh, sure. Daggers, bodkins, maybe a spring knife - but the infantry escort is just outside the door, and they can call for back-up from the garrison. If they have their suspicions, you might face an Excellent Ruby Eye and a trip downtown in the back of a cart with a tarp over your head. They have very little, if any, sense of humor.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 28, 2016, 02:56:38 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900476
The tax inspectors will not be packing anything, that's not their job.

If you give them trouble verbally, they will speak to your clan elders, who will sort you out in a hurry.

If you actually attack an Imperial servant, you have committed treason against the Petal Throne.  If the local prefect has a sense of humor, he may simply post a bounty on your head and sit back and watch the amusement.  Otherwise, they have tools at their disposal; I'm sure the OAL has operatives skilled in assassination.


This. The individual officer probably is not packing serious stuff, but they always have their escorts and the rest of the city garrison as back up. Assuming that you just don't wake up dead, some morning. The Seal Imperium plays for keeps, with no mucking around.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 28, 2016, 04:22:22 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900319
Oh! I'll try is, and see how they look.

Well, the most important part would be not to tell the players that you painted them "just because". The watch as they start shuffling books...:D

Quote
Thank you - would be easy to make a set, too... :)

I'd like to see a picture if you do:).

Quote
Agreed. I'll see what happens in the future; I'm a little disenchanted, right now.

I know the feeling. It's happened before; eventually, we come over it.

Quote
And you should.

Thinking about it more and more.
I think I've ran "A Fistful of Jade Coins" in Exalted, but the PCs just dealt with the issues at hand with judicious application of social power...and in the end, probably gained more than any of the other parties.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;900325
Oh, I'd have to agree with this. I've had so much go right by people - who keep telling me how culturally savvy and hip they are, too.

Ah. me. :)

Always fun when that happens:p!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;900326
Subtle? What subtle? I did everything except do a miniature billboard saying "Welcome To Morocco!", hoist a Tricolor (they gave a fictional one, but still), and wore a fez. I did do all the NPCs voices, and pretty well at that, and they still didn't get it over several weeks of game sessions. I used all the film's dialog, too. Word for word.

You got me as to why they didn't catch it. I'm still baffled, decades later.

Excellent:D!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;900327
I've had a very pleasant afternoon; got the window air conditioners in, so I could say I was doing something useful, but the real fun of the day is pictured below. Got the ovals at the crafts store for a whole $4, everything else came out of stock. The arched brackets were salvaged from a project that never got off the ground, and the brass rod for the railings were left over from a project we did for Prince a lot time ago. Everything else is from the parts bins.

Control stands and weapons mounts are on, and the supports with the steel plates for the magnets for the flight stands are all on and coat of black primer on the top side. I still have to add the lower detail, flagstaffs, and build some accessories - these, things like radium cannon and such, will be on steel / magnets so I can trade them out for different games. The two large skiffs can carry up to 12, the four small ones up to six based figures. No railings for the bows, so the weapons can be traversed and the players can jump off more quickly.

Grappling hooks? Do I need grappling hooks?

Excellent model, Uncle! Even I can see that.
Grappling hooks are nice to have, but not mandatory.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900329
SHIT!  I'd forgotten about that.

For those of you not up on Tekumelyani pharmaceuticals this is roughly like injecting somebody with pure heroin "as a joke."

We left that group soon after, as I recall.

I mean, shortening one of the legs on your war merino is one thing; what those clowns did wasn't even close to funny, though.

Folks, now you know why Chirine and I responded with undisguised glee when Qutmu took the high ride.

Yeah, I can think of a guy who liked that playstyle, too...
Except I can outmatch him on that.
His PC is the reason I've said that PCs I played have sold other PCs in slavery. "Payback is a bitch", as I told him. I maintain that it was what he earned.
The people over at another forum never ask me for the context, though, and just say it's an awful thing to do;). Which is why they get the polite variant of "fuck you, too".

And yes, I got the idea about Qutmu when I heard he's from that other group.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;900333
Yep. It was, as they say, the last straw. Jim Danielson and Rick Bjugen kind of read Phil the Riot Act, and we all moved away from the 'New Men' and let them stew in their own juices. Gaming was a lot more fun, the room was nicer, and we laughed a lot more.

They still think they're really funny, too. :rolleyes:

Liberal Applications of Boots to Asses: Improving your gaming since the first setting was developed!

Quote from: Hrugga;900370
Lord Chirine,

Just a few quick questions. I understand that the shiny kaitar greases tha palm and gets things done on Tekumel. Is corruption more of an induvidual thing, or are certain groups more likely to be corrupt(poor tomb police,etc)?

Is that seen as corruption? If not what kinds of acts would be corrupt, besides having an undead army and taking the high ride...?

Let me try and help you here...
Gronan mentioned the word "baksheesh".
This is a word that we use as a loanword in Bulgaria. It means 1) a tip to an waiter or the like, 2) an inducement to an official to go "above and beyond the call of duty", and give you priority (not to commit a crime - just to, say, be faster, or present it in more favourable light to People That Matter), and 3) a curseword meaning "taxi driver with dangerous ways to drive and highly mercantile attitude" (admittedly, that's the most common use).
That's not seen as corruption, mind. Demanding a backsheesh would be; giving it, as long as there's no reason to suspect it had deciding influence, is usually overlooked.

Don't know if that helps, but thought it might;). Because the three things that many contemporary people seem to have trouble grasping in settings like this* is 1) how much nuance matters, 2) how much scarcity of resources influences even the top, and 3) how important is giving, and that this is often a bigger honour than receiving.
Nuance: you're a ruler without "democratic checks and balances". Contrary to whatever contemporary people think, that doesn't mean you can do whatever you wish! If you trample the desires of people close to your rank one too many times, they're going to unite against you - and your superior is going to listen. If you have no superior, they might send you to a superior power for judging, merely by withdrawing their support whenever you're dealing with a bigger problem...
And of course, you can't just build everything you want by merely ordering "make me a road". Who provides workers, specialists, and materials? You can't just round up people and send them to work on your project. They're living in scarcity, too - and they can't afford to lose a few months' wages, possibly not even a day's wages. That's a sure-fire way to get yourself a rebellion.

So yeah, nuance matters. Giving money as a tip? Fine, as long as it's not too little (you'll get lesser treatment next time, or you might lose standing among your peers if that's out of the question), and it's not too much.
Giving money to an official for faster processing? Fine. Giving money for presenting your case favourably? Starting to get dubious, but no repercussions yet. Giving money to throw a case against you away? If you get caught, it's a serious offence. If it becomes known but there's no proof, or there's nobody high enough to prosecute you - you paid off the governor, say - you lose standing, except among criminals, but people kinda fear you because you got away with the thing you'd committed. Remember, respect might be due to obligation, genuine respect, and/or fear, and these are different kinds of respect.
So yeah, nuance FTW.
Let me clarify something else. You give a too big baksheesh to an official or even a waitress? It might be refused (unless they need the money), as you're seen as trying to indebt the official, or the waitress - for goals criminal or carnal, might be presumed, regardless of your actual intentions...
Because, and here we come to receiving and giving, giving creates an obligation in the other people. If you renege on it? In the East, they talk about "face". The phrase my grandmother used - and she was a master of this game - was "you couldn't look people in the eyes".
And the reason for this is shame is a powerful motivator, and measures your standing.

Again, nuance matters.

All of the above isn't based on my superior setting knowledge. It's based on what I've been taught since my childhood - including in order to deal with people who live in the same country, but have had stronger influence by our neighbours south of the borders.
I gather that this is much less common knowledge in the USA, though.

*I mean "Exalted, Tekumel, and almost everything based on real-world history".

Quote from: chirine ba kal;900410
And this is why I like Jeff Dee's work. He's been in the game industry long enough that he can write a good adventure - and then fit the adventure into Tekumel and not the other way around. The thing plays well, moves along nicely, and gives the players a lot of local color without turning into a lecture on bilabial phoneme fricatives. Mark Pettigrew did much the same thing with "Tomb Complex of Nereshanbo", although that is not what I'd call or use as an introductory adventure.

Shows you what can happen when a professional gets involved.

Indeed!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;900411
Player characters never seem to change, do they? :)

They've been the same in the history of our world, too - why would they need to change?

Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900424
Ok, so, the OAL. How tough would a typical member be? What sort of gear would they have? If they came to a bunch of PCs and said "Hand over (X) in the name of the Emperor", how would they back it up (apart from people being expelled/impaled etc)? If the party did hand over (X), might they get a reward or the like (depends on X, I guess).

If someone does get something of great power I would imagine that Avanthar's response is to offer that person a large "inducement" (cash, land, title, dancing girls) in return for handing it over. If they don't then there is a problem...a messy problem.

They're infinitely tough: if you kill one of them, the OAL will not rest until they have your head. First they're going to find you, of course, or determine whether it was you, but they're resourceful...
Still think you want to try them on?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900469
You need to look at this in terms of "you are living in a society," not "you are adventurers in a D&D game where brute force rules."  Or to phrase your question differently,

"How tough would a typical member of US Army intelligence be?  What sort of gear would they have?  If they came to a bunch of people and said "The US Government is requisitioning this," how would they back it up?"

For that matter, when the IRS says "Pay your income taxes," how do they back it up?  A typical IRS auditor probably isn't more than 2nd or 3rd level, after all.

My point is to look at the problem differently to reflect the ways that Tekumel can be played differently from the usual pseudo-medieval D&Desque fantasy.

I seriously need a "+10 000" button for posts like this!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 28, 2016, 06:21:33 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900488
It's an artifact of thirty years of publishing. EPT has Shedra with steel swords because it gave a reason to attack them, a reason for players to get nice weapons, and gave the Shedra a bit of an advantage against PCs with chlen-hide weapons. Over time, Phil noted that certain temples have metals that are sacred to them, and which enhance the temple's sorcery. For Sarku it's copper, Ksarul and Dlamelish l silver, and Vimuhla the red gold of the Chakas.

You can play it any way you want to, of need to for the scenario.

About the nano-bots; this comes from the need on some folks' part to have everything explained in terms that they can relate to. If there are nano-bots, we don't know about them as PCs. Me, I don't worry about the mechanics of the thing; I play it as it lies.

Given the way I think Tekumel often works (which may be incorrect), I'd maybe go with some sort of gene-engineered/other-planar powered virus/bacteria that is what animates the Shedra (a la many zombie films), and is therefore also present on their equipment. The Necrofacture spell probably just provides the other-planar power to allow the virus to do its stuff.

Or no reason, and that's just how it is...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 28, 2016, 06:23:16 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900497
This. The individual officer probably is not packing serious stuff, but they always have their escorts and the rest of the city garrison as back up. Assuming that you just don't wake up dead, some morning. The Seal Imperium plays for keeps, with no mucking around.

Well, in terms of packing, a bunch of soldiers counts just as much, if not more.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 28, 2016, 06:27:28 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900491

I'd love to see this, myself; had it happen a couple of times out at Phil's, with amusing and enriching consequences. :)


Yes, I think it would be fun for the players to be pleased with themselves to have some powerful artefact, only to realise that it's really a dreadful curse in that everyone wants it, and whoever you let have it, all the others will be pissed off at you because you didn't give it to them
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 28, 2016, 06:31:28 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900407
I'd start off with the Temple of Sarku; ask somebody in the clan - the players should ask each of theirs - who to talk to in the Temple. It's highly likely that one of their clans knows somebody who knows somebody. Assuming that the swords were picked up in the Underworld, and nobody from the Temple - a living nobody, of course - got hurt, then it's 'lost and found' and the players are being good citizens by restoring lost property to the most likely owner. The Temple will, unless the players botch the discussion, coo happily and offer these fine, upstanding young people who have such a fine sense of decency a nice finder's fee in order to recompense them for their trouble. The players will get cash, and store up some favors and goodwill with the Temple. The Temple might also want to know where this forgotten shrine or tomb might be, but that's a separate negotiation.

I'm thinking of a nice trip to the scary Sarku temple in Katalal to flog off the swords, where they have a civilised conversation (and the equivalent of tea and biscuits) with a priest-appraiser who is very polite and offers them a good price, gets a scribe to write out a receipt for the transaction (with Imperial taxes deducted, of course) and sends them on their way. Of course, if they find any more he would be very interested to have first option on buying them, and any further information would be useful too.

I think the PCs could be quite worried about it afterwards...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 28, 2016, 10:11:05 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900493
It's an intelligence agency, as well as a police agency. Spies, assassins, and whatever else the Imperium needs to keep itself in power. Sort of like me; I'm the military side of the thing.

As for the three in my household... Uh, oh. You've done it now.

- He's forgotten us already, and -
- that after our big dramatic entrance -
- in Book Five, too. And then the part -
- we play in the rest of that book, and -
- then going into Book Six. At least -
- the twins love us. -

Three farm girls from around Bey Su, who's lineage is the same as their clans, and who wear mysterious amulets around their necks. And one of them is a very good sorceress and her two friends are very good warriors - at least, Vrisa thinks so! And while I am not trying to tell you how to run your life, I'd suggest doing something nice for the girls next time you're in town; when they get cranky, my life gets difficult.

No, Si N'te is not an OAL person. She's the First Dancer of the Temple of Mretten, in the Nyemesel Isles, and I have no idea why she puts up with me.


Gottcha!!! It's been awhile. Now I know I need to reread again. I was kinda waiting for the whole manuscript, book form and all, special edition hardcover with slipcase and silk book mark... ;0) By Late October I should get back on the Tekumel track full time. Hopefully I will have some intelligent questions for you then. Sometimes it's hard to juggle real world and what keeps us sane and entertained. Thank you as always.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 28, 2016, 10:49:15 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;900509


Let me try and help you here...
Gronan mentioned the word "baksheesh".
This is a word that we use as a loanword in Bulgaria. It means 1) a tip to an waiter or the like, 2) an inducement to an official to go "above and beyond the call of duty", and give you priority (not to commit a crime - just to, say, be faster, or present it in more favourable light to People That Matter), and 3) a curseword meaning "taxi driver with dangerous ways to drive and highly mercantile attitude" (admittedly, that's the most common use).
That's not seen as corruption, mind. Demanding a backsheesh would be; giving it, as long as there's no reason to suspect it had deciding influence, is usually overlooked.

Don't know if that helps, but thought it might;). Because the three things that many contemporary people seem to have trouble grasping in settings like this* is 1) how much nuance matters, 2) how much scarcity of resources influences even the top, and 3) how important is giving, and that this is often a bigger honour than receiving.
Nuance: you're a ruler without "democratic checks and balances". Contrary to whatever contemporary people think, that doesn't mean you can do whatever you wish! If you trample the desires of people close to your rank one too many times, they're going to unite against you - and your superior is going to listen. If you have no superior, they might send you to a superior power for judging, merely by withdrawing their support whenever you're dealing with a bigger problem...
And of course, you can't just build everything you want by merely ordering "make me a road". Who provides workers, specialists, and materials? You can't just round up people and send them to work on your project. They're living in scarcity, too - and they can't afford to lose a few months' wages, possibly not even a day's wages. That's a sure-fire way to get yourself a rebellion.

So yeah, nuance matters. Giving money as a tip? Fine, as long as it's not too little (you'll get lesser treatment next time, or you might lose standing among your peers if that's out of the question), and it's not too much.
Giving money to an official for faster processing? Fine. Giving money for presenting your case favourably? Starting to get dubious, but no repercussions yet. Giving money to throw a case against you away? If you get caught, it's a serious offence. If it becomes known but there's no proof, or there's nobody high enough to prosecute you - you paid off the governor, say - you lose standing, except among criminals, but people kinda fear you because you got away with the thing you'd committed. Remember, respect might be due to obligation, genuine respect, and/or fear, and these are different kinds of respect.
So yeah, nuance FTW.
Let me clarify something else. You give a too big baksheesh to an official or even a waitress? It might be refused (unless they need the money), as you're seen as trying to indebt the official, or the waitress - for goals criminal or carnal, might be presumed, regardless of your actual intentions...
Because, and here we come to receiving and giving, giving creates an obligation in the other people. If you renege on it? In the East, they talk about "face". The phrase my grandmother used - and she was a master of this game - was "you couldn't look people in the eyes".
And the reason for this is shame is a powerful motivator, and measures your standing.

Again, nuance matters.

All of the above isn't based on my superior setting knowledge. It's based on what I've been taught since my childhood - including in order to deal with people who live in the same country, but have had stronger influence by our neighbours south of the borders.
I gather that this is much less common knowledge in the USA, though.

*I mean "Exalted, Tekumel, and almost everything based on real-world history".





I seriously need a "+10 000" button for posts like this!


Thanks. Nuance is a good way to put it. I will say that this thread has been an education for me thus far. I see gaming with The Professor was really a valuable experience for both Lord Chirine and Glorious General. Thanks for the insight Lord Asen. I am at heart a country bumpkin...Baksheesh in the dictionary runs the whole gambit from alms to bribes!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 28, 2016, 11:00:19 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;900509
Let me try and help you here...
Gronan mentioned the word "baksheesh".
This is a word that we use as a loanword in Bulgaria. It means 1) a tip to an waiter or the like, 2) an inducement to an official to go "above and beyond the call of duty", and give you priority (not to commit a crime - just to, say, be faster, or present it in more favourable light to People That Matter), and 3) a curseword meaning "taxi driver with dangerous ways to drive and highly mercantile attitude" (admittedly, that's the most common use).
That's not seen as corruption, mind. Demanding a backsheesh would be; giving it, as long as there's no reason to suspect it had deciding influence, is usually overlooked.

Don't know if that helps, but thought it might;). Because the three things that many contemporary people seem to have trouble grasping in settings like this* is 1) how much nuance matters, 2) how much scarcity of resources influences even the top, and 3) how important is giving, and that this is often a bigger honour than receiving.
Nuance: you're a ruler without "democratic checks and balances". Contrary to whatever contemporary people think, that doesn't mean you can do whatever you wish! If you trample the desires of people close to your rank one too many times, they're going to unite against you - and your superior is going to listen. If you have no superior, they might send you to a superior power for judging, merely by withdrawing their support whenever you're dealing with a bigger problem...
And of course, you can't just build everything you want by merely ordering "make me a road". Who provides workers, specialists, and materials? You can't just round up people and send them to work on your project. They're living in scarcity, too - and they can't afford to lose a few months' wages, possibly not even a day's wages. That's a sure-fire way to get yourself a rebellion.

So yeah, nuance matters. Giving money as a tip? Fine, as long as it's not too little (you'll get lesser treatment next time, or you might lose standing among your peers if that's out of the question), and it's not too much.
Giving money to an official for faster processing? Fine. Giving money for presenting your case favourably? Starting to get dubious, but no repercussions yet. Giving money to throw a case against you away? If you get caught, it's a serious offence. If it becomes known but there's no proof, or there's nobody high enough to prosecute you - you paid off the governor, say - you lose standing, except among criminals, but people kinda fear you because you got away with the thing you'd committed. Remember, respect might be due to obligation, genuine respect, and/or fear, and these are different kinds of respect.
So yeah, nuance FTW.
Let me clarify something else. You give a too big baksheesh to an official or even a waitress? It might be refused (unless they need the money), as you're seen as trying to indebt the official, or the waitress - for goals criminal or carnal, might be presumed, regardless of your actual intentions...
Because, and here we come to receiving and giving, giving creates an obligation in the other people. If you renege on it? In the East, they talk about "face". The phrase my grandmother used - and she was a master of this game - was "you couldn't look people in the eyes".
And the reason for this is shame is a powerful motivator, and measures your standing.

Again, nuance matters.

All of the above isn't based on my superior setting knowledge. It's based on what I've been taught since my childhood - including in order to deal with people who live in the same country, but have had stronger influence by our neighbours south of the borders.
I gather that this is much less common knowledge in the USA, though.


This is a really, really excellent summation.  And Asen's right that the US just does not WORK like that.  Certain professions like concierges and taxi drivers are usually tipped; restaurant wait staff have, by law, a lower minimum wage so they depend on tips; but other than that, it just Is Not Done.  Hell, I don't think most people would even know what to do if offered a "gift."  The fact is, though most people don't know it, the US Constitution spends a LOT of ink regulating commerce; that's why we have a different culture.

I've been told that in ancient China the term they used translated as "squeeze," and that it was a legitimate business expense that was tax deductable.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 28, 2016, 11:03:31 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900491
I'd love to see this, myself; had it happen a couple of times out at Phil's, with amusing and enriching consequences. :)

I always tried really, really hard to make sure the OAL had no interest in me.  Once Phil realized that I really didn't have any nefarious plans other than "be a good and loyal soldier" it wasn't much of an issue.

For me, that is.  There's always SOME player character who thinks he can outsmart the Secret Police.  "When we return to Be Sy you will be pulled apart by wild Feshenga, for the plaudits of the troops and the amusement of the children."



*2500 XP to identify THAT without checking
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 28, 2016, 11:50:50 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;900509



1.Yeah, I can think of a guy who liked that playstyle, too...
Except I can outmatch him on that.
His PC is the reason I've said that PCs I played have sold other PCs in slavery. "Payback is a bitch", as I told him. I maintain that it was what he earned.
The people over at another forum never ask me for the context, though, and just say it's an awful thing to do;). Which is why they get the polite variant of "fuck you, too".

And yes, I got the idea about Qutmu when I heard he's from that other group.


Liberal Applications of Boots to Asses: Improving your gaming since the first setting was developed!


2.Let me try and help you here...
Gronan mentioned the word "baksheesh".
This is a word that we use as a loanword in Bulgaria. It means 1) a tip to an waiter or the like, 2) an inducement to an official to go "above and beyond the call of duty", and give you priority (not to commit a crime - just to, say, be faster, or present it in more favourable light to People That Matter), and 3) a curseword meaning "taxi driver with dangerous ways to drive and highly mercantile attitude" (admittedly, that's the most common use).
That's not seen as corruption, mind. Demanding a backsheesh would be; giving it, as long as there's no reason to suspect it had deciding influence, is usually overlooked.

Don't know if that helps, but thought it might;). Because the three things that many contemporary people seem to have trouble grasping in settings like this* is 1) how much nuance matters, 2) how much scarcity of resources influences even the top, and 3) how important is giving, and that this is often a bigger honour than receiving.
Nuance: you're a ruler without "democratic checks and balances". Contrary to whatever contemporary people think, that doesn't mean you can do whatever you wish! If you trample the desires of people close to your rank one too many times, they're going to unite against you - and your superior is going to listen. If you have no superior, they might send you to a superior power for judging, merely by withdrawing their support whenever you're dealing with a bigger problem...
And of course, you can't just build everything you want by merely ordering "make me a road". Who provides workers, specialists, and materials? You can't just round up people and send them to work on your project. They're living in scarcity, too - and they can't afford to lose a few months' wages, possibly not even a day's wages. That's a sure-fire way to get yourself a rebellion.

So yeah, nuance matters. Giving money as a tip? Fine, as long as it's not too little (you'll get lesser treatment next time, or you might lose standing among your peers if that's out of the question), and it's not too much.
Giving money to an official for faster processing? Fine. Giving money for presenting your case favourably? Starting to get dubious, but no repercussions yet. Giving money to throw a case against you away? If you get caught, it's a serious offence. If it becomes known but there's no proof, or there's nobody high enough to prosecute you - you paid off the governor, say - you lose standing, except among criminals, but people kinda fear you because you got away with the thing you'd committed. Remember, respect might be due to obligation, genuine respect, and/or fear, and these are different kinds of respect.
So yeah, nuance FTW.
Let me clarify something else. You give a too big baksheesh to an official or even a waitress? It might be refused (unless they need the money), as you're seen as trying to indebt the official, or the waitress - for goals criminal or carnal, might be presumed, regardless of your actual intentions...
Because, and here we come to receiving and giving, giving creates an obligation in the other people. If you renege on it? In the East, they talk about "face". The phrase my grandmother used - and she was a master of this game - was "you couldn't look people in the eyes".
And the reason for this is shame is a powerful motivator, and measures your standing.

Again, nuance matters.

All of the above isn't based on my superior setting knowledge. It's based on what I've been taught since my childhood - including in order to deal with people who live in the same country, but have had stronger influence by our neighbours south of the borders.
I gather that this is much less common knowledge in the USA, though.



Asen,

1.  I wonder, did he start to cry when you gave him some of his own medicine? This style of play may be great for ambience, or setting integrity, or what ever, but it is not conducive to friendly and smooth gameplay. At the end of the day "Somebody gonna get a hurt real bad", to paraphrase a local comedian. I never understood the enjoyment that certain  people derive from spoiling someone else's fun. This is why I put an end to this nonsense in my group very early on. If one PC decides that he needs to destroy another PC, for legitimate in game reasons well that's another thing. However, if he's doing to be a dick head that's another. You're reaction to his action is perfect.:D
"машала";)

2. You beat me to this point. Excellent definition and illustrations of what baksheesh in action is like. If we had our old emoticons :mad: I would take my hat off to you. I, like you, grew up knowing what this concept entailed; I would like to say almost intuitively.
Although I must admit I have never heard it used as a curse word. Must be a local Sofia idiom. I have been trying to explain to my players for years what this concept is all about, and they still mess it up. This institution just does not exist, not only in the USA, but in Canada, and, probably, Western Europe. I think I might print out a copy of what you posted (if you don't mind) and include it as part of my "introduction to Tekumel" guided tour.
One case comes to mind of how baksheesh was  f*****d up in a game session. One of my original players in the "Old Game", as they referred to it, needed to quickly get some documents signed. It  became evident that he was not going to get them as quickly he wanted so he decided to grease the wheels and openly drop a  pouch of gems in the scribe's lap, in front of everyone present in the Palace of the Realm. To further induce the recalcitrant "scribblers", as he called them, he proclaimed in a clear speaking voice: "This should speed up the process. Buy your self a nice house with what's left over. Now Hurry up!" The scribe was mortified and somewhat indignant. Given the fact that the PC was a relatively high ranking warrior within the Ito clan, "possessed" by an avatar of one of Mighty Lord Sarku's aspects, the situation was quickly smoothed over and he was politely told by the local clan elders that in the future they would arrange for any official documents that may be needed  to be personally  delivered to him. The player just didn't get how baksheesh works. He associates it solely with bribery and corruption, which of course is not the case.
I am at the stage now that if my players play locals I kind of gloss over it (assumed knowledge), but if they play foreigners I ham it up for all it's worth.

Another thing that my group has never gotten, is the notion of haggling. They just can't or wont do it. In my games the locals love it when they see the PC's coming into the market. It will most certainly be a good day for some lucky merchant! I play this up all the time, and I have fleeced the players for thousands of GP/Kaitars over the years that we have been gaming.;)

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 28, 2016, 11:52:38 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;900522
Gottcha!!! It's been awhile. Now I know I need to reread again. I was kinda waiting for the whole manuscript, book form and all, special edition hardcover with slipcase and silk book mark... ;0) By Late October I should get back on the Tekumel track full time. Hopefully I will have some intelligent questions for you then. Sometimes it's hard to juggle real world and what keeps us sane and entertained. Thank you as always.

H:0)


Mighty Hrugga of the Epics, hurry back to Tekumel! The real world can be over-rated at times;)

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 28, 2016, 11:58:05 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900532
This is a really, really excellent summation.  And Asen's right that the US just does not WORK like that.  Certain professions like concierges and taxi drivers are usually tipped; restaurant wait staff have, by law, a lower minimum wage so they depend on tips; but other than that, it just Is Not Done.  Hell, I don't think most people would even know what to do if offered a "gift."  The fact is, though most people don't know it, the US Constitution spends a LOT of ink regulating commerce; that's why we have a different culture.

I've been told that in ancient China the term they used translated as "squeeze," and that it was a legitimate business expense that was tax deductable.

Same in Canada. I think that people up here, who were not from a culture that employed this practice, would probably try and return it, or give it to the police.:confused:
 Squeeze, I like that term. Only in China would a form of institutionalized "bribery" be considered tax deductible.  :D

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 28, 2016, 01:18:41 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;900539
Mighty Hrugga of the Epics, hurry back to Tekumel! The real world can be over-rated at times;)

Shemek


Ah Good Lord Shemek, if all goes well in the long run, I will have more Kaitars at my disposal to travel Tekumel and planes beyond!!! I might just drop in a few places. Beer and BBQ I love. If I can figure out how to use those tubeway car disks the right way...!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 28, 2016, 01:50:02 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;900537
Another thing that my group has never gotten, is the notion of haggling. They just can't or wont do it. In my games the locals love it when they see the PC's coming into the market. It will most certainly be a good day for some lucky merchant! I play this up all the time, and I have fleeced the players for thousands of GP/Kaitars over the years that we have been gaming.;)

Shemek.

I hate haggling, always have.  It was one of the advantages of being a soldier of the Empire; somebody ELSE dealt with it, I merely signed the requisition orders.  Same with clan membership.

Excluding little things like trinkets for my lady wife, of course.  But by that time when you are a high clan member and career soldier of some fame haggling becomes a whole different style of thing, with the "guest" (customer) being served tea or fruit juice and tiny cakes, and much fulsome complimenting of the guest's taste and great enthusiasm over the quality of the "host's" "collection," etc., and such a crude thing as "commerce" never takes place.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 28, 2016, 01:54:47 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900511
Given the way I think Tekumel often works (which may be incorrect), I'd maybe go with some sort of gene-engineered/other-planar powered virus/bacteria that is what animates the Shedra (a la many zombie films), and is therefore also present on their equipment. The Necrofacture spell probably just provides the other-planar power to allow the virus to do its stuff.

Or no reason, and that's just how it is...

Or how about this:

If you want to make Tekumel REALLY REALLY exotic... as Chirine has mentioned before, Phil cut his SF and fantasy teeth reading pre-WW2 works.  Tekumelyani bioengineering predates the discovery of DNA so it's all about mysterious "life vats" where "vital matrices" are experimented with.  Likewise, it's pre-computer science fiction!  So go read some George Herbert, and some ERB, perhaps reread Frankenstein, and then brush up on your pulp SF.  So your Tekumel technology isn't based on nanobots, but it's based on "dimensional vortices" and "allotropic iron*" and "the eighth ray" and "nutrient mixes".  And such like.


*500 XP
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 28, 2016, 03:22:15 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900551
Or how about this:

If you want to make Tekumel REALLY REALLY exotic... as Chirine has mentioned before, Phil cut his SF and fantasy teeth reading pre-WW2 works.  Tekumelyani bioengineering predates the discovery of DNA so it's all about mysterious "life vats" where "vital matrices" are experimented with.  Likewise, it's pre-computer science fiction!  So go read some George Herbert, and some ERB, perhaps reread Frankenstein, and then brush up on your pulp SF.  So your Tekumel technology isn't based on nanobots, but it's based on "dimensional vortices" and "allotropic iron*" and "the eighth ray" and "nutrient mixes".  And such like.


*500 XP

Have read all those though, so can use all suggestions, and then choose an explanation. As Prof Barker said I believe it up to us to make Tekumel our own, as we can't run it the same way as he did, especially as a lot of underlying rationales are unstated. Also I was suggesting a non-DNA based reason!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 29, 2016, 12:35:09 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;900509

Let me try and help you here...
Gronan mentioned the word "baksheesh".
This is a word that we use as a loanword in Bulgaria. It means 1) a tip to an waiter or the like, 2) an inducement to an official to go "above and beyond the call of duty", and give you priority (not to commit a crime - just to, say, be faster, or present it in more favourable light to People That Matter), and 3) a curseword meaning "taxi driver with dangerous ways to drive and highly mercantile attitude" (admittedly, that's the most common use).
That's not seen as corruption, mind. Demanding a backsheesh would be; giving it, as long as there's no reason to suspect it had deciding influence, is usually overlooked.

Don't know if that helps, but thought it might;). Because the three things that many contemporary people seem to have trouble grasping in settings like this* is 1) how much nuance matters, 2) how much scarcity of resources influences even the top, and 3) how important is giving, and that this is often a bigger honour than receiving.
Nuance: you're a ruler without "democratic checks and balances". Contrary to whatever contemporary people think, that doesn't mean you can do whatever you wish! If you trample the desires of people close to your rank one too many times, they're going to unite against you - and your superior is going to listen. If you have no superior, they might send you to a superior power for judging, merely by withdrawing their support whenever you're dealing with a bigger problem...
And of course, you can't just build everything you want by merely ordering "make me a road". Who provides workers, specialists, and materials? You can't just round up people and send them to work on your project. They're living in scarcity, too - and they can't afford to lose a few months' wages, possibly not even a day's wages. That's a sure-fire way to get yourself a rebellion.

So yeah, nuance matters. Giving money as a tip? Fine, as long as it's not too little (you'll get lesser treatment next time, or you might lose standing among your peers if that's out of the question), and it's not too much.
Giving money to an official for faster processing? Fine. Giving money for presenting your case favourably? Starting to get dubious, but no repercussions yet. Giving money to throw a case against you away? If you get caught, it's a serious offence. If it becomes known but there's no proof, or there's nobody high enough to prosecute you - you paid off the governor, say - you lose standing, except among criminals, but people kinda fear you because you got away with the thing you'd committed. Remember, respect might be due to obligation, genuine respect, and/or fear, and these are different kinds of respect.
So yeah, nuance FTW.
Let me clarify something else. You give a too big baksheesh to an official or even a waitress? It might be refused (unless they need the money), as you're seen as trying to indebt the official, or the waitress - for goals criminal or carnal, might be presumed, regardless of your actual intentions...
Because, and here we come to receiving and giving, giving creates an obligation in the other people. If you renege on it? In the East, they talk about "face". The phrase my grandmother used - and she was a master of this game - was "you couldn't look people in the eyes".
And the reason for this is shame is a powerful motivator, and measures your standing.

Again, nuance matters.

All of the above isn't based on my superior setting knowledge. It's based on what I've been taught since my childhood - including in order to deal with people who live in the same country, but have had stronger influence by our neighbours south of the borders.
I gather that this is much less common knowledge in the USA, though.

*I mean "Exalted, Tekumel, and almost everything based on real-world history".


All great points in your post, and this bit should be engraved on stone tablets someplace. Very, very well done, sir!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 29, 2016, 05:22:36 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;900530
Thanks. Nuance is a good way to put it. I will say that this thread has been an education for me thus far. I see gaming with The Professor was really a valuable experience for both Lord Chirine and Glorious General. Thanks for the insight Lord Asen. I am at heart a country bumpkin...Baksheesh in the dictionary runs the whole gambit from alms to bribes!!!

H:0)

Oh, I'm sure any of us would have learned a lot by playing with Phil!

Glad you found it helpful.
And baksheesh does run the whole gambit from alms to bribes. The nuance of the situation and the context is what makes the difference...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900532
This is a really, really excellent summation.  And Asen's right that the US just does not WORK like that.  Certain professions like concierges and taxi drivers are usually tipped; restaurant wait staff have, by law, a lower minimum wage so they depend on tips; but other than that, it just Is Not Done.  Hell, I don't think most people would even know what to do if offered a "gift."  The fact is, though most people don't know it, the US Constitution spends a LOT of ink regulating commerce; that's why we have a different culture.

I've been told that in ancient China the term they used translated as "squeeze," and that it was a legitimate business expense that was tax deductable.

Seems like that, indeed.

And I don't know what the term in Ancient China translated to, but I'm almost sure I've read in some explorer's work that it was, indeed, tax deductable. Don't quote me on that, since I've read said explorer's notes about 18 years ago...but it sure seemed the Chinese merchant he had as an intermediary was treating them as tax deductable.
Or I might be misremembering.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900533
I always tried really, really hard to make sure the OAL had no interest in me.  Once Phil realized that I really didn't have any nefarious plans other than "be a good and loyal soldier" it wasn't much of an issue.

For me, that is.  There's always SOME player character who thinks he can outsmart the Secret Police.  "When we return to Be Sy you will be pulled apart by wild Feshenga, for the plaudits of the troops and the amusement of the children."

*2500 XP to identify THAT without checking

:D
I'm sure I read the line you used in history class. Not sure when, though.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;900537
Asen,

1.  I wonder, did he start to cry when you gave him some of his own medicine? This style of play may be great for ambience, or setting integrity, or what ever, but it is not conducive to friendly and smooth gameplay. At the end of the day "Somebody gonna get a hurt real bad", to paraphrase a local comedian. I never understood the enjoyment that certain  people derive from spoiling someone else's fun. This is why I put an end to this nonsense in my group very early on. If one PC decides that he needs to destroy another PC, for legitimate in game reasons well that's another thing. However, if he's doing to be a dick head that's another. You're reaction to his action is perfect.:D
"машала"

He didn't, and the GM shrugged and said "ah well, you can use the money to offset part of the debt he saddled your temple with - you make a new character". He took quite a bit to do that, though.
He didn't come to next session, though I'm not sure whether the GM even informed him on the time and location.

"Благодаря"

Quote
2. You beat me to this point. Excellent definition and illustrations of what baksheesh in action is like. If we had our old emoticons :mad: I would take my hat off to you. I, like you, grew up knowing what this concept entailed; I would like to say almost intuitively.

Thank you, Lord Shemek:)!

Quote
Although I must admit I have never heard it used as a curse word. Must be a local Sofia idiom.

I think it's just a recent Bulgarian idiom, appeared in the last 15 years or so.

Quote
I have been trying to explain to my players for years what this concept is all about, and they still mess it up. This institution just does not exist, not only in the USA, but in Canada, and, probably, Western Europe. I think I might print out a copy of what you posted (if you don't mind) and include it as part of my "introduction to Tekumel" guided tour.
One case comes to mind of how baksheesh was  f*****d up in a game session. One of my original players in the "Old Game", as they referred to it, needed to quickly get some documents signed. It  became evident that he was not going to get them as quickly he wanted so he decided to grease the wheels and openly drop a  pouch of gems in the scribe's lap, in front of everyone present in the Palace of the Realm. To further induce the recalcitrant "scribblers", as he called them, he proclaimed in a clear speaking voice: "This should speed up the process. Buy your self a nice house with what's left over. Now Hurry up!" The scribe was mortified and somewhat indignant. Given the fact that the PC was a relatively high ranking warrior within the Ito clan, "possessed" by an avatar of one of Mighty Lord Sarku's aspects, the situation was quickly smoothed over and he was politely told by the local clan elders that in the future they would arrange for any official documents that may be needed  to be personally  delivered to him. The player just didn't get how baksheesh works. He associates it solely with bribery and corruption, which of course is not the case.
I am at the stage now that if my players play locals I kind of gloss over it (assumed knowledge), but if they play foreigners I ham it up for all it's worth.

That's a really funny story, gotta admit it:D.

Quote
Another thing that my group has never gotten, is the notion of haggling. They just can't or wont do it. In my games the locals love it when they see the PC's coming into the market. It will most certainly be a good day for some lucky merchant! I play this up all the time, and I have fleeced the players for thousands of GP/Kaitars over the years that we have been gaming.

Shemek.

"You mean you don't see the doubtless qualities of this excellent clay pot, my Lord? Why, the form is perfect for its function, and the craftsman made sure to etch a scene at the bottom that's sure to attract the favourable scene of Avanthe! No doubt 3 Kaitars would be but a modest price for it?"
I have enjoyed it greatly as well. Seems like I'm a better haggler than at least some people in my group:p!

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;900540
Same in Canada. I think that people up here, who were not from a culture that employed this practice, would probably try and return it, or give it to the police.:confused:
 Squeeze, I like that term. Only in China would a form of institutionalized "bribery" be considered tax deductible.

Shemek.

Why only in China? I remember some multinational companies were recently caught trying to pass institutionalized bribes as tax deductible expanses:D!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900550
I hate haggling, always have.  It was one of the advantages of being a soldier of the Empire; somebody ELSE dealt with it, I merely signed the requisition orders.  Same with clan membership.

Excluding little things like trinkets for my lady wife, of course.  But by that time when you are a high clan member and career soldier of some fame haggling becomes a whole different style of thing, with the "guest" (customer) being served tea or fruit juice and tiny cakes, and much fulsome complimenting of the guest's taste and great enthusiasm over the quality of the "host's" "collection," etc., and such a crude thing as "commerce" never takes place.

"Excellent taste, Glorious General! I must note that my Third Wife says she noticed your Lady First Wife last spring at the reception at he Governor's Second Wife. She made me craft those moon-like earrings specifically because she thought they'd complement nicely the set she was wearing..."

Something like that, I'd think;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 29, 2016, 08:10:29 AM
Ok, another Tekumel question, this time regarding tubeways. If you summon a tubeway car, and you don't have a golden disc of advancing to glory, does the car have pre-programmed destinations anyway? i.e. does the disc over-ride the normal settings? Or do you need the disc for it to do anything? Presumably if you summon a car and don't do anything with it, after a while it will disappear off somewhere else, depending on what the central system thinks needs doing somewhere.

Did you ever have an journeys interrupted or redirected because someone/thing somewhere else had called a car?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 29, 2016, 09:38:55 AM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900511
Given the way I think Tekumel often works (which may be incorrect), I'd maybe go with some sort of gene-engineered/other-planar powered virus/bacteria that is what animates the Shedra (a la many zombie films), and is therefore also present on their equipment. The Necrofacture spell probably just provides the other-planar power to allow the virus to do its stuff.

Or no reason, and that's just how it is...


I tried to answer this last night, but the reply got lost in a connection burp. So...

Um, I don't think that there's a 'correct' or 'incorrect' to this. Phil could change a light bulb, but he was very hazy on how it produced light. One of the more unpleasant conversations at a convention was when a fan asked him how the Eyes work. He said he didn't know, just that they did, and the fan berated him for not having thought out his world setting in enough detail. Whatever you come up with to explain how stuff works may very well be how it works - we have no idea, just that is does. See also Clarke's Law... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 29, 2016, 09:40:29 AM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900514
I'm thinking of a nice trip to the scary Sarku temple in Katalal to flog off the swords, where they have a civilised conversation (and the equivalent of tea and biscuits) with a priest-appraiser who is very polite and offers them a good price, gets a scribe to write out a receipt for the transaction (with Imperial taxes deducted, of course) and sends them on their way. Of course, if they find any more he would be very interested to have first option on buying them, and any further information would be useful too.

I think the PCs could be quite worried about it afterwards...


Sounds like  a lot of fun - I know I'd be worried!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 29, 2016, 09:42:06 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;900522
Gottcha!!! It's been awhile. Now I know I need to reread again. I was kinda waiting for the whole manuscript, book form and all, special edition hardcover with slipcase and silk book mark... ;0) By Late October I should get back on the Tekumel track full time. Hopefully I will have some intelligent questions for you then. Sometimes it's hard to juggle real world and what keeps us sane and entertained. Thank you as always.

H:0)


No problem! :) You're very welcome! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 29, 2016, 09:43:37 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900533
I always tried really, really hard to make sure the OAL had no interest in me.  Once Phil realized that I really didn't have any nefarious plans other than "be a good and loyal soldier" it wasn't much of an issue.

For me, that is.  There's always SOME player character who thinks he can outsmart the Secret Police.  "When we return to Be Sy you will be pulled apart by wild Feshenga, for the plaudits of the troops and the amusement of the children."



*2500 XP to identify THAT without checking


All very true. We made sure not to get officially noticed.

(Raises had) I know! I know! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 29, 2016, 09:58:40 AM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900610
Ok, another Tekumel question, this time regarding tubeways. If you summon a tubeway car, and you don't have a golden disc of advancing to glory, does the car have pre-programmed destinations anyway? i.e. does the disc over-ride the normal settings? Or do you need the disc for it to do anything? Presumably if you summon a car and don't do anything with it, after a while it will disappear off somewhere else, depending on what the central system thinks needs doing somewhere.

Did you ever have an journeys interrupted or redirected because someone/thing somewhere else had called a car?


If you don;t have a disc, then you still have the ten destination buttons on the control console. These hold the last ten destinations programmed by the last person who loaded their disc - which could have been before the Time of Darkness! Pushing these will take you places, but you have no real control over the choice of destinations. Loading the disc seems to 'wipe the memory', and substitutes your destinations for any existing ones.

If you summon a car and don't use it, in our experience it just sits there in the station until you do use it. But, I should also say that we always opened the hatch, to see what might be inside, and the cars will not move - we hope! - with the hatch open. I would assume, like you, that a closed car would be 're-used' by the system to meet traffic demands; we just never did leave a car unused, as we usually needed to get out of the station in a hurry...

Yes, we had a few very bad moments when the car stopped and then went off again; we didn't know if somebody was calling for a car, or what. From what we could tell, once you start a journey the car will finish it - but - if you don't get the hatch open when you arrive, your car can indeed be 're-dispatched' to a different station. At this point, an adventure ensues, as you try to keep the car in the face of whomever has called for one. Same for cars stopping in the 'junction' and repair stations; if you don't hit a destination button, the car goes back into the pool and you can be off to some other station willy-nilly.

It's one of the reasons that we had qualms about using the system - while it's very reliable, most of the time, we really didn't have much control over it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 29, 2016, 10:02:03 AM
I think I'm all caught up, again. We were out yesterday getting one of my nieces married off, and I had connection issues last night. Up early to give #2 Daughter a ride home, and now off to get a snack. The air skiffs look nice, I think; the weapons mounts are coming along nicely. Still have to add the detachable motors and props, once I find my stash of rare-earth magnets.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 29, 2016, 05:11:54 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900618
(Raises had) I know! I know! :)

Of course you know! :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 29, 2016, 05:14:38 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900556
Have read all those though, so can use all suggestions, and then choose an explanation. As Prof Barker said I believe it up to us to make Tekumel our own, as we can't run it the same way as he did, especially as a lot of underlying rationales are unstated. Also I was suggesting a non-DNA based reason!

Well, sure.  But my point is that to most gamers nowadays, the tropes of 30s science fiction and fantasy will feel far more exotic and alien than the tropes of modern science fiction and fantasy.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 29, 2016, 05:22:33 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900661
Of course you know! :D


< chortle > :)

It's because I have powers beyond the ken of mortal men! Pick a card, any card... :)

(One can learn so much about playing the NPCs from that film...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 29, 2016, 05:25:26 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900663
Well, sure.  But my point is that to most gamers nowadays, the tropes of 30s science fiction and fantasy will feel far more exotic and alien than the tropes of modern science fiction and fantasy.

I think I'd have to agree with this, based on my experiences. So many people I've known over the years who seem to believe that F/SF started with Lucas or Jackson. There's all this rich history and publication that led up to this point, and that's worth mining for ideas. At least I think so, anyway.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 29, 2016, 06:08:51 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900663
Well, sure.  But my point is that to most gamers nowadays, the tropes of 30s science fiction and fantasy will feel far more exotic and alien than the tropes of modern science fiction and fantasy.

You're quite right - I suspect that a lot of older stuff is now unknown and out of print, which is a great pity. Even my favourite author, Jack Vance, seems unknown these days, but then I guess that he's relatively ancient history now...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 29, 2016, 06:14:12 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900615
I tried to answer this last night, but the reply got lost in a connection burp. So...

Um, I don't think that there's a 'correct' or 'incorrect' to this. Phil could change a light bulb, but he was very hazy on how it produced light. One of the more unpleasant conversations at a convention was when a fan asked him how the Eyes work. He said he didn't know, just that they did, and the fan berated him for not having thought out his world setting in enough detail. Whatever you come up with to explain how stuff works may very well be how it works - we have no idea, just that is does. See also Clarke's Law... :)

That's very interesting. For me as a GM I always like to know how stuff works to some extent, even if it is mysterious to the PCs. For many years I felt unable to run Glorantha because after reading Cults of Prax etc  it seemed like there was a huge detailed world out there that I didn't know enough about to do justice. It was only after several conventions and meeting Greg Stafford that I realised that he didn't know a lot of the details either, because they had just never been made up at the time...

The thing about great settings like Tekumel, Glorantha or Middle Earth is that they "feel" right and make it seem that there is a lot more to them than is necessarily actually there...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 29, 2016, 06:18:43 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900621
If you don;t have a disc, then you still have the ten destination buttons on the control console. These hold the last ten destinations programmed by the last person who loaded their disc - which could have been before the Time of Darkness! Pushing these will take you places, but you have no real control over the choice of destinations. Loading the disc seems to 'wipe the memory', and substitutes your destinations for any existing ones.

If you summon a car and don't use it, in our experience it just sits there in the station until you do use it. But, I should also say that we always opened the hatch, to see what might be inside, and the cars will not move - we hope! - with the hatch open. I would assume, like you, that a closed car would be 're-used' by the system to meet traffic demands; we just never did leave a car unused, as we usually needed to get out of the station in a hurry...

Yes, we had a few very bad moments when the car stopped and then went off again; we didn't know if somebody was calling for a car, or what. From what we could tell, once you start a journey the car will finish it - but - if you don't get the hatch open when you arrive, your car can indeed be 're-dispatched' to a different station. At this point, an adventure ensues, as you try to keep the car in the face of whomever has called for one. Same for cars stopping in the 'junction' and repair stations; if you don't hit a destination button, the car goes back into the pool and you can be off to some other station willy-nilly.

It's one of the reasons that we had qualms about using the system - while it's very reliable, most of the time, we really didn't have much control over it.

Ok, that's great, and does fit in with how it seemed to me. So using a disc loads the ten buttons with the data from the disc, which becomes the new settings until they in turn are overwritten.

Hm, I wonder what happens if you leave a car in the station with the door open? Does the system notice after a bit and dispatch something to sort out the problem? Otherwise it would be a good way to disable a tubeway station...there are maintenance tunnels etc right? So something could come along to sort it out...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 29, 2016, 06:33:16 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900668
You're quite right - I suspect that a lot of older stuff is now unknown and out of print, which is a great pity. Even my favourite author, Jack Vance, seems unknown these days, but then I guess that he's relatively ancient history now...

I think so, too, and I'm wondering if any of this material is up on the web or available as e-books? Jack Vance is a great example - Phil drew the first maps of the Dying Earth for him, way back when - and a lot of RPG people talk about 'Vancian magic'. Cabn one still get his books outside of the specialist shops?

And a quick plug, if that's all right: Uncle Hugo's SF Bookstore: http://www.unclehugo.com/ (http://www.unclehugo.com/)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 29, 2016, 06:35:26 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900669
That's very interesting. For me as a GM I always like to know how stuff works to some extent, even if it is mysterious to the PCs. For many years I felt unable to run Glorantha because after reading Cults of Prax etc  it seemed like there was a huge detailed world out there that I didn't know enough about to do justice. It was only after several conventions and meeting Greg Stafford that I realised that he didn't know a lot of the details either, because they had just never been made up at the time...

The thing about great settings like Tekumel, Glorantha or Middle Earth is that they "feel" right and make it seem that there is a lot more to them than is necessarily actually there...

Very, very good point!!! Yes, there's a lot that simply isn't known about Tekumel - in addition to the specifics we've been talking about - and Phil kept saying as much. He wanted people to get out there and adventure to find out what was what, and that's what we did for all of our time with him. Well, as best we could, anyway... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 29, 2016, 06:50:04 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900670
Ok, that's great, and does fit in with how it seemed to me. So using a disc loads the ten buttons with the data from the disc, which becomes the new settings until they in turn are overwritten.

Hm, I wonder what happens if you leave a car in the station with the door open? Does the system notice after a bit and dispatch something to sort out the problem? Otherwise it would be a good way to disable a tubeway station...there are maintenance tunnels etc right? So something could come along to sort it out...

Yes, you have it. That was our 'get out of town in a hurry trick', leaving the hatch open. It did entail leaving a guard with the car, just to make sure, but then we had learned the hard way to be very, very careful.

I don't know; we never left a tubeway car alone with the hatch open long enough to get a response from the system. However, we did find cars sitting in stations with no occupants, but with the hatch closed. My guess, and it's a guess as I didn't program the system, is that after a certain period the central control sends an over-ride command to the car with the hatch open to close the hatch and so make the car available to the system. I'd agree with you - after a long enough string of 'malfunction reports', a repair robot (or worse) would be sent.

As for maintenance tunnels, yes, there are some, but we only saw them in the big stations and junctions and they were for man-sized beings or robots. Everything normally comes through the normal tunnels - once had a 'tow truck' show up, slap what we assumed was a tractor beam on the car, and tow it off. Also saw cars pull all the way up out of the tunnel, if there was enough head room, and a repair machine float up out of the tunnel. Scared the kilts right off us, I tell you. The system is to some extent self-healing, after accidents, but it just takes it time to react and repair itself.

And it's not all machine-based, either; the tunnels in the upper crust of the planet seem to be dug by very large 'worms', which are sentient, that digest the rock as they go. Deeper down, like in the core tunnels that lead to the gravity engines that control the planet's orbit and rotation, it's all machine 'life-forms'.

One thing to remember is that there are truly 'private stations', like used to be on the UK railways - 'private halts', as it were - and some cars were indeed privately owned. This is why there are different 'models' of the cars; they all have the same basic features, but there are differences in detail amongst them.

Might get back to my model of one tomorrow; one-man scout flyers on the workbench today... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 29, 2016, 07:52:40 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900673
And it's not all machine-based, either; the tunnels in the upper crust of the planet seem to be dug by very large 'worms', which are sentient, that digest the rock as they go. Deeper down, like in the core tunnels that lead to the gravity engines that control the planet's orbit and rotation, it's all machine 'life-forms'.

Ooo, never heard of this before - any more like this? Are these worms still controlled from somewhere or are they basically now loose creatures?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 29, 2016, 08:07:06 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900678
Ooo, never heard of this before - any more like this? Are these worms still controlled from somewhere or are they basically now loose creatures?

To quote Gary Gygax, "Decide how you would like it to be, and then make it just that way!"

Honestly, I don't know.  I'm not sure if Phil knew.  From the game standpoint, my opinion would be the best answer is "Some are, some aren't...."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 29, 2016, 08:20:03 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900663
Well, sure.  But my point is that to most gamers nowadays, the tropes of 30s science fiction and fantasy will feel far more exotic and alien than the tropes of modern science fiction and fantasy.

Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900668
You're quite right - I suspect that a lot of older stuff is now unknown and out of print, which is a great pity. Even my favourite author, Jack Vance, seems unknown these days, but then I guess that he's relatively ancient history now...


Quote from: chirine ba kal;900671
I think so, too, and I'm wondering if any of this material is up on the web or available as e-books? Jack Vance is a great example - Phil drew the first maps of the Dying Earth for him, way back when - and a lot of RPG people talk about 'Vancian magic'. Cabn one still get his books outside of the specialist shops?

And a quick plug, if that's all right: Uncle Hugo's SF Bookstore: http://www.unclehugo.com/ (http://www.unclehugo.com/)
Guys, unless Project Gutenberg is somehow illegal in your country*, there's a lot of these, and more are getting released every day. The text of Barsoom novels is long since in the public domain; which is A Good Thing (TM), or I would never have been able to read as many of them as I have...:)

Jack Vance has less works on Project Gutenberg - only "Sjambak", it seems - but there are a few short stories you can find (legally) on other sites. Why they aren't on Project Gutenberg is beyond me, frankly.
In all honesty, I'm mixing my explanations of different sources, including some from early Russian sources. They had a thing for biotechnologies, those early writers - though the technology is almost never the point of the tale (with some notable exceptions:p)!

*And then: what kind of corporations-owned hellhole do you live in:D?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;900615
I tried to answer this last night, but the reply got lost in a connection burp. So...

Um, I don't think that there's a 'correct' or 'incorrect' to this. Phil could change a light bulb, but he was very hazy on how it produced light. One of the more unpleasant conversations at a convention was when a fan asked him how the Eyes work. He said he didn't know, just that they did, and the fan berated him for not having thought out his world setting in enough detail. Whatever you come up with to explain how stuff works may very well be how it works - we have no idea, just that is does. See also Clarke's Law... :)

Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900669
That's very interesting. For me as a GM I always like to know how stuff works to some extent, even if it is mysterious to the PCs. For many years I felt unable to run Glorantha because after reading Cults of Prax etc  it seemed like there was a huge detailed world out there that I didn't know enough about to do justice. It was only after several conventions and meeting Greg Stafford that I realised that he didn't know a lot of the details either, because they had just never been made up at the time...

The thing about great settings like Tekumel, Glorantha or Middle Earth is that they "feel" right and make it seem that there is a lot more to them than is necessarily actually there...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;900672
Very, very good point!!! Yes, there's a lot that simply isn't known about Tekumel - in addition to the specifics we've been talking about - and Phil kept saying as much. He wanted people to get out there and adventure to find out what was what, and that's what we did for all of our time with him. Well, as best we could, anyway... :)
Thing is...if we can imagine it, it's all right.
If we can't imagine how it works, it's all right, too. I was unable to imagine smartscreens before they existed; now there's three of those so close I can reach them with my hand. We can't always imagine what future technology would be like, not even in general. Yes, Jules Verne prophesied submarines and helicopters before they existed...but not every Referee is Jules Verne. And he had technology that was just off, too.
And of course, some of the technology on Tekumel doesn't fit with modern scientific concepts. Which is alright, it doesn't need to. Before airplanes appeared, some people were trying to prove that there cannot be a heavier-than-air flying apparatus, or that helicopters are impossible...up until some inventors proved them wrong;).

It just so happens that I can explain how stuff on Tekumel works, and have it make enough sense that my science-educated players mostly accept it. But it is a heady mix of nanotechnology and Tibetan mysticism, so might not be appropriate for all campaigns.
And you can have your own explanations as well. That would be totally normal;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;900673
And it's not all machine-based, either; the tunnels in the upper crust of the planet seem to be dug by very large 'worms', which are sentient, that digest the rock as they go. Deeper down, like in the core tunnels that lead to the gravity engines that control the planet's orbit and rotation, it's all machine 'life-forms'.

One thing to remember is that there are truly 'private stations', like used to be on the UK railways - 'private halts', as it were - and some cars were indeed privately owned. This is why there are different 'models' of the cars; they all have the same basic features, but there are differences in detail amongst them.

Might get back to my model of one tomorrow; one-man scout flyers on the workbench today... :)

Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900678
Ooo, never heard of this before - any more like this? Are these worms still controlled from somewhere or are they basically now loose creatures?
Worth remembering, and I'm taking notes;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 29, 2016, 11:37:22 PM
If I remember correctly "worms" are met in the Professor's third book. Not sure if these are the same worms...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 30, 2016, 12:27:25 AM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900678
Ooo, never heard of this before - any more like this? Are these worms still controlled from somewhere or are they basically now loose creatures?


Yes, there are a lot of beings like the Ngoro - which are actually colony creatures - who are descended from the contract employees of the First Founder, the (presumably human) Lord of Humanspace who got the contract to terra-form Tekumel. The Ngoro are security guards, basically; the giant 'worms' the tunneling engineers who digest the spoil from the tunnels. I would presume that the latter still get work orders from the central system for repairs and such, but I doubt that any new tunnels are being dug. They do have a contract, and they're carrying out their side of the bargain.

What with the residents, garrison troops, spaceship crews, stranded tourists, contract workers, uninvited trespassers, disgruntled locals, and the usual odds and ends you see in any spaceport I'd be willing to bet that the population of Tekumel is pretty much what the average population of Humanspace was like.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 30, 2016, 12:28:53 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900679
To quote Gary Gygax, "Decide how you would like it to be, and then make it just that way!"

Honestly, I don't know.  I'm not sure if Phil knew.  From the game standpoint, my opinion would be the best answer is "Some are, some aren't...."

Yeah, I'd agree with this. he just didn't worry about nailing down all the details all that much, and preferred that somebody go and have a look - so he could take notes on their fate, of course... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 30, 2016, 12:33:45 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;900684
Guys, unless Project Gutenberg is somehow illegal in your country*, there's a lot of these, and more are getting released every day. The text of Barsoom novels is long since in the public domain; which is A Good Thing (TM), or I would never have been able to read as many of them as I have...:)

Jack Vance has less works on Project Gutenberg - only "Sjambak", it seems - but there are a few short stories you can find (legally) on other sites. Why they aren't on Project Gutenberg is beyond me, frankly.
In all honesty, I'm mixing my explanations of different sources, including some from early Russian sources. They had a thing for biotechnologies, those early writers - though the technology is almost never the point of the tale (with some notable exceptions:p)!

*And then: what kind of corporations-owned hellhole do you live in:D?

Thing is...if we can imagine it, it's all right.
If we can't imagine how it works, it's all right, too. I was unable to imagine smartscreens before they existed; now there's three of those so close I can reach them with my hand. We can't always imagine what future technology would be like, not even in general. Yes, Jules Verne prophesied submarines and helicopters before they existed...but not every Referee is Jules Verne. And he had technology that was just off, too.
And of course, some of the technology on Tekumel doesn't fit with modern scientific concepts. Which is alright, it doesn't need to. Before airplanes appeared, some people were trying to prove that there cannot be a heavier-than-air flying apparatus, or that helicopters are impossible...up until some inventors proved them wrong;).

It just so happens that I can explain how stuff on Tekumel works, and have it make enough sense that my science-educated players mostly accept it. But it is a heady mix of nanotechnology and Tibetan mysticism, so might not be appropriate for all campaigns.
And you can have your own explanations as well. That would be totally normal;).

Worth remembering, and I'm taking notes;).

Thank you for the mention of the on-line books! I keep forgetting about them, mostly (I think) because I like to have a book in my hands when I read it... :)

Very good points about explaining about the technology, too. Phil was very good with a table saw, but didn't know the first thing about how the electricity made the blade spin - or where the electricity came from, for that matter. It was all about how the story needed to be told, or the plot advanced.

The thing is what it is, and it's up to us to make of it what we will... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 30, 2016, 12:36:43 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;900705
If I remember correctly "worms" are met in the Professor's third book. Not sure if these are the same worms...

H:0)

I'm pretty sure you're right; they do a lot of junketing around the technology and the Pylons in the second half of "Lords of Tsamra".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 30, 2016, 12:44:12 AM
Work in progress update:
4 scout flyers built and in primer, drying out on the back porch;
175+ old figures stripped and sorted for disposal;
50 figures salvaged from the above and rebuilt for use, on the workbench while the glue cures.
1 tubeway car coated with filler, and curing before sanding.

It's been a good day, if I may say so. Wedding photos look good, too. Life moves ahead! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 30, 2016, 01:23:05 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900708
What with the residents, garrison troops, spaceship crews, stranded tourists, contract workers, uninvited trespassers, disgruntled locals, and the usual odds and ends you see in any spaceport I'd be willing to bet that the population of Tekumel is pretty much what the average population of Humanspace was like.

"You get a pretty mixed bag in any convention burg."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 30, 2016, 01:36:59 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900715
"You get a pretty mixed bag in any convention burg."

Agreed - and we haven't even touched upon the folks who drop in through singularities, rifts in the fabric of space-time. nexus points, stupid dimension-hopper thingies, divine interventions, shipwrecks, and other such plot devices.

It gets busy around here, some days...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 30, 2016, 01:40:04 AM
And here's an intriguing thought for GMs:

There has to be a 'lost luggage' section at the spaceport. I do wonder what might be there - assuming we can find the spaceport, in the first place... :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 30, 2016, 05:22:47 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900679
To quote Gary Gygax, "Decide how you would like it to be, and then make it just that way!"

Honestly, I don't know.  I'm not sure if Phil knew.  From the game standpoint, my opinion would be the best answer is "Some are, some aren't...."


Yup, this is a time honoured GM tool - resolve as necessary (sometimes by listening in to your players' speculations as they may have better ideas than you do)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 30, 2016, 05:23:55 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900711
I'm pretty sure you're right; they do a lot of junketing around the technology and the Pylons in the second half of "Lords of Tsamra".

Hm, I need to reread that...I don't suppose there is any sign of the remaining book(s) ever coming out?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on May 30, 2016, 01:12:26 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900710

The thing is what it is, and it's up to us to make of it what we will... :)

Indeed.
As long as it is what it is and not what it feels convenient to be.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;900712
Work in progress update:
4 scout flyers built and in primer, drying out on the back porch;
175+ old figures stripped and sorted for disposal;
50 figures salvaged from the above and rebuilt for use, on the workbench while the glue cures.
1 tubeway car coated with filler, and curing before sanding.

It's been a good day, if I may say so. Wedding photos look good, too. Life moves ahead! :)

Sounds like a lot was done for a single day of work!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;900717
And here's an intriguing thought for GMs:

There has to be a 'lost luggage' section at the spaceport. I do wonder what might be there - assuming we can find the spaceport, in the first place... :eek:

:D
That's a good one! And a good excuse to use the tables for found items from post-apocalyptic games...;)

Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900731
Yup, this is a time honoured GM tool - resolve as necessary (sometimes by listening in to your players' speculations as they may have better ideas than you do)

I agree resolving stuff as necessary is a time-honoured tradition. I'll also admit that I'm less persuaded about the "listening to players' speculations" part, though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 30, 2016, 02:43:06 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900732
Hm, I need to reread that...I don't suppose there is any sign of the remaining book(s) ever coming out?


Which books do you mean?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 30, 2016, 02:48:40 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900731
Yup, this is a time honoured GM tool - resolve as necessary (sometimes by listening in to your players' speculations as they may have better ideas than you do)


Yes I agree with this for the most part. Although I must admit that I rarely allow players to guide or influence   the game these days. In the past I was far more likely to run with PC's idea.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 30, 2016, 02:59:41 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900717
And here's an intriguing thought for GMs:

There has to be a 'lost luggage' section at the spaceport. I do wonder what might be there - assuming we can find the spaceport, in the first place... :eek:


Many Interspacial Interfogulated Radium powered umbrellas of course. As well as hundreds left hand gloves made of the finest Corinthian Leather. Perhaps we might also find a bunch of various sized Ahoggya ear muffs.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 30, 2016, 06:39:17 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;900774
Which books do you mean?

Shemek.

I believe that there was at least another book planned after "Lords of Tsamra". Can't remember where I saw that though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 30, 2016, 06:47:35 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900731
Yup, this is a time honoured GM tool - resolve as necessary (sometimes by listening in to your players' speculations as they may have better ideas than you do)

I would think so; one of the lessons I learned from both Dave and Phil was to be flexible and adaptive in the game - one just had to roll with the punches. as it were.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 30, 2016, 06:50:36 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900732
Hm, I need to reread that...I don't suppose there is any sign of the remaining book(s) ever coming out?

That's a question that you'll have to address to the Tekumel Foundation. All five of Phil's published novels exist in electronic format, so it should be fairly easy to get them up onto the net. However, it took some four years to get "Man of Gold" up, as they don;t do much of anything in-house; it's all farmed out to people who are part of their circle. Their usual answer is "we're working on it" and "real soon now".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 30, 2016, 06:57:10 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;900763
Indeed.
As long as it is what it is and not what it feels convenient to be.

Sounds like a lot was done for a single day of work!

That's a good one! And a good excuse to use the tables for found items from post-apocalyptic games...;)

I agree resolving stuff as necessary is a time-honoured tradition. I'll also admit that I'm less persuaded about the "listening to players' speculations" part, though.

Thank you! I have been getting a lot done; the stripping and salvaging is the end game in a project that I had to leave sit while other things impended. I used to buy bulk lots of figures on e-bay, sorting out what I can use from what I can't, and this was a lot that just didn't work out. So, they went into my favorite Secret Ingredient to remove my ham-fisted paint jobs, and the bulk of them will go to a friend who can use them. Using Phil's mantra that "A guy in a loincloth is a guy in a loincloth", the useful figures have been cleaned up and are now letting their primer dry out on the back steps.

The scout flyers were a quick bit of whimsey, and done out of the parts bins. I still have to make their clear plastic windscreens, but that's easy. The tubeway car just got a second coat of filler, and once that's done I'll sand it down and paint it.

I think that listening and using ideas from the players does have a place, but has to be done very carefully. Otherwise, it can and sometimes does get out of hand.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 30, 2016, 06:58:20 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;900774
Which books do you mean?

Shemek.

I'm assuming "Lords of Tsamra", "Prince of Skulls", and "Death of Kings".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 30, 2016, 06:59:09 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;900778
Many Interspacial Interfogulated Radium powered umbrellas of course. As well as hundreds left hand gloves made of the finest Corinthian Leather. Perhaps we might also find a bunch of various sized Ahoggya ear muffs.

Shemek.

Probably, and highly likely!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 30, 2016, 07:02:22 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900801
I believe that there was at least another book planned after "Lords of Tsamra". Can't remember where I saw that though.

The complete list of novels includes the 1950s unfinished one, "Man of Gold", "Flamesong", "Lords of Tsamra", "Prince of Skulls", "Death of Kings", and the last one "Beside the Dark Pool of Memory" which exists as a draft of thirteen chapters and was both unfinished and unpublished.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 30, 2016, 07:28:36 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900801
I believe that there was at least another book planned after "Lords of Tsamra". Can't remember where I saw that though.


Oh, I see. OK.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 30, 2016, 07:34:12 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900810
I'm assuming "Lords of Tsamra", "Prince of Skulls", and "Death of Kings".

You can still find these on line, and in second hand bookstores. I recently saw MoG for the princely sum of $2.00, and PoS for $5.00 at a bookstore. However, I don't know what they go for on line at the moment.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 30, 2016, 07:36:39 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900812
.... and the last one "Beside the Dark Pool of Memory" which exists as a draft of thirteen chapters and was both unfinished and unpublished.

I wouldn't mind seeing this, even unfinished. Do you recall what the basic premise of the novel was? Perhaps a thumbnail sketch?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 30, 2016, 08:15:33 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900717
And here's an intriguing thought for GMs:

There has to be a 'lost luggage' section at the spaceport. I do wonder what might be there - assuming we can find the spaceport, in the first place... :eek:


"Something just moved past my leg!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 30, 2016, 10:01:17 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;900816
You can still find these on line, and in second hand bookstores. I recently saw MoG for the princely sum of $2.00, and PoS for $5.00 at a bookstore. However, I don't know what they go for on line at the moment.

Shemek.

On used book site, for next to nothing. On gamer collectables site, absurdly high prices. Since they're scarce - the print runs totaled maybe 250 copies across the years - they're 'collectable'.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 30, 2016, 10:05:46 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;900817
I wouldn't mind seeing this, even unfinished. Do you recall what the basic premise of the novel was? Perhaps a thumbnail sketch?

Shemek.

What we have opens some years after the end of "Death of Kings", and sort of tries to continue the history of the world. It's got a very tentative feel, as Phil had finished his huge over-arching plot line of Elara and Mirusiya, and these chapters are a way for him to try and start moving on from there. He did multiple drafts of the existing texts, and just didn't feel comfortable with any of them. Some of the individual scenes are very good, but the work as a whole doesn't seem to 'gel'. I'd suspect that if he'd finished it, and then gone back over it, it would have been pretty coherent.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 30, 2016, 10:07:38 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900819
"Something just moved past my leg!"


And just how many times did these immortal words follow Phil's "Roll percentile dice, please" over the years? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on May 30, 2016, 10:23:03 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900438
Inspector Morse with heavy weapons.
I saw what you did there.
 
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900551
*500 XP
What is Triplanetary, by E.E. "Doc" Smith?

Quote from: AsenRG;900603
And I don't know what the term in Ancient China translated to, but I'm almost sure I've read in some explorer's work that it was, indeed, tax deductable. Don't quote me on that, since I've read said explorer's notes about 18 years ago...but it sure seemed the Chinese merchant he had as an intermediary was treating them as tax deductable.
Modern China has an underground industry in creating fake expense receipts for government and other uses. I had to explain to one local consultant that no, he couldn't use fake receipts to justify his expenses to my US-based Accounting Department. Bureaucrats and bureaucracy  regulate and control, entrepreneurs find new ways to make the bureaucracy pay.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 30, 2016, 11:14:03 PM
Quote from: Bren;900839
What is Triplanetary, by E.E. "Doc" Smith?

Ding!  Winner!  :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 30, 2016, 11:17:07 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900533
 "When we return to Be Sy you will be pulled apart by wild Feshenga, for the plaudits of the troops and the amusement of the children."



*2500 XP to identify THAT without checking



Miles Gloriosus: You, slave, will be torn apart by horses, to the plaudits of the troops and the amusement of the children.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 30, 2016, 11:24:43 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900305
Why, not a bit of it, Bunky old chum!*

*10,000 XP to the first one who can identify this reference without looking it up!


"Cerebus the Aardvark" #21

About halfway down the page

http://mindlessones.com/2014/05/06/cerebus/
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 31, 2016, 01:23:50 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900842
Ding!  Winner!  :D


Hmmm. Inertialess space drives, millennia-long breeding programs, aliens contending for control of entire universes, etc., etc.; where, oh where, have we heard this before... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 31, 2016, 01:37:42 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900843
Miles Gloriosus: You, slave, will be torn apart by horses, to the plaudits of the troops and the amusement of the children.

I still think that this film should be watched and notes taken by anybody who wants to GM in the style of Dave Arneson.

And for that matter, TCM Classic movies is supposedly broadcasting the Burton-Taylor "Cleopatra" at 7:00 pm Eastern this coming Sunday. I'd like to suggest giving this a look, as it was one of Phil's "guilty pleasures", as he put it. Pack a lunch; it's over 230 minutes long, but the battle scene in Alexandria, the sea battle at Actium, and the costumes are all worth it. The cast works very hard at chewing the scenery, in what was an agonizingly long shoot due to the lack of a finished shooting script; Hume Cronyn (who I met at the theater I was working at, back in the day) told me that he threw himself off of Cleoptara's golden barge at the end of the scene where he was  trying to get Mark Anthony to board the thing - it was his last contracted scene, and he was so giddy at being done with the filming he went over the side when the director yelled cut and swam to shore hollering "I'm free! I'm free!". Costume and all.

Lots of stuff worth quoting; Phil's problem was that he held the Romans personally responsible for Egypt's decline.

And my favorite story from the shooting of this film comes from the little boy who played Caesarion: He was sitting next to Ms. Taylor during the big entry into Rome scene, when she asked him how he was doing (she was always very kind to him, he said.) He told her he was fine, and she whisper "That's good, because Auntie Elizabeth is about to barf!"...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 31, 2016, 01:40:02 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900846
"Cerebus the Aardvark" #21

About halfway down the page

http://mindlessones.com/2014/05/06/cerebus/


And I still have the miniature, too... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 31, 2016, 04:47:16 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900810
I'm assuming "Lords of Tsamra", "Prince of Skulls", and "Death of Kings".


Actually I though (and could be misremembering) that there were others after those (I have the Zottola prints of those three)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on May 31, 2016, 04:47:59 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900812
The complete list of novels includes the 1950s unfinished one, "Man of Gold", "Flamesong", "Lords of Tsamra", "Prince of Skulls", "Death of Kings", and the last one "Beside the Dark Pool of Memory" which exists as a draft of thirteen chapters and was both unfinished and unpublished.


Aha - the last one is the one I was thinking of.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on May 31, 2016, 02:13:52 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));900871
Aha - the last one is the one I was thinking of.

Yep; that's the lot.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 31, 2016, 03:18:24 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900859
And my favorite story from the shooting of this film comes from the little boy who played Caesarion: He was sitting next to Ms. Taylor during the big entry into Rome scene, when she asked him how he was doing (she was always very kind to him, he said.) He told her he was fine, and she whisper "That's good, because Auntie Elizabeth is about to barf!"...

It's very sweet that she was kind to him.  And that is a GREAT quip.


"Boom!  Zing!  Tantantaraa!  BLURRCH!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on May 31, 2016, 03:29:04 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900859
I still think that this film should be watched and notes taken by anybody who wants to GM in the style of Dave Arneson.

HAR!  Ain't it the truth!

You know, ("you" more referring in plural to our Gentle Readers rather than Chirine,) I've said before that people really underestimate the effect of "Hollywood costume dramas" on D&D and its two main originators.  And I'm not talking about the modern "guts and gore pseudohistorical dramas," I mean the old classics.  And there are a TON of them.  There are more versions of "The Three Musketeers" than I can count.  Not only are there multiple versions of "Richard III," but the story was rebranded as "The Tower of London."  Besides "Henry IV," there is also Orson Welles' "The Chimes of Midnight."  Errol Flynn's "Robin Hood" was Gary's model for D&D combat and why hit points work the way they do, as I've said many times before.  Don't forget "The Vikings" with Ernest Borgnine as Ragnar, "Black Shield of Falworth" where Tony Curtis does NOT, in fact, say "Yonda lies da castle of my fadda," "The Long Ships," "The Warlord," the excellent "El Cid", "The Warriors,"... and I'm not even getting into all the Sinbad movies and the great classic "Jason and the Argonauts" with Peter Ustinov as Zeus!

Oh, and a personal favorite... Alexander Nevsky, which I just received as a birthday gift from my dear friend David!  In the Korean version... so I could use the English subtitles to teach myself execrable Russian, and then use the Koren subtitles to teach myself abominable Korean...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 31, 2016, 08:08:19 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900951
HAR!  Ain't it the truth!

You know, ("you" more referring in plural to our Gentle Readers rather than Chirine,) I've said before that people really underestimate the effect of "Hollywood costume dramas" on D&D and its two main originators.  And I'm not talking about the modern "guts and gore pseudohistorical dramas," I mean the old classics.  And there are a TON of them.  There are more versions of "The Three Musketeers" than I can count.  Not only are there multiple versions of "Richard III," but the story was rebranded as "The Tower of London."  Besides "Henry IV," there is also Orson Welles' "The Chimes of Midnight."  Errol Flynn's "Robin Hood" was Gary's model for D&D combat and why hit points work the way they do, as I've said many times before.  Don't forget "The Vikings" with Ernest Borgnine as Ragnar, "Black Shield of Falworth" where Tony Curtis does NOT, in fact, say "Yonda lies da castle of my fadda," "The Long Ships," "The Warlord," the excellent "El Cid", "The Warriors,"... and I'm not even getting into all the Sinbad movies and the great classic "Jason and the Argonauts" with Peter Ustinov as Zeus!

Oh, and a personal favorite... Alexander Nevsky, which I just received as a birthday gift from my dear friend David!  In the Korean version... so I could use the English subtitles to teach myself execrable Russian, and then use the Koren subtitles to teach myself abominable Korean...

All fantastically inspirational films. Although some what later than the ones you mentioned Lion in Winter ( one of my all time favourites), Polanski's Macbeth, and The Name of the Rose are also great to draw from. I based a "Matriarch" of the Ito clan on Hepburn's Eleanor. Also did Name of the Rose, set in a Pechani keep/shrine of Nyesst on the Frontier of the Ssu lands, with a Pariah Gods twist to it. Really worked out well. Kind of like Chirine's Casablanca inspired adventure nobody got it until near the climax of the scenario when the main NPC, Villa'am of Bashakkarruvilla monk of Quoth, and one time heretic, put on his "hoops of glass" to read a scroll in Sunuz. The lights went on all at once and the players started bombarding my DM Screens with BBQ chips and pretzels, in total disgust and embarrassment.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 31, 2016, 08:30:49 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;900859
I still think that this film should be watched and notes taken by anybody who wants to GM in the style of Dave Arneson.

And for that matter, TCM Classic movies is supposedly broadcasting the Burton-Taylor "Cleopatra" at 7:00 pm Eastern this coming Sunday. I'd like to suggest giving this a look, as it was one of Phil's "guilty pleasures", as he put it. Pack a lunch; it's over 230 minutes long, but the battle scene in Alexandria, the sea battle at Actium, and the costumes are all worth it. The cast works very hard at chewing the scenery, in what was an agonizingly long shoot due to the lack of a finished shooting script; Hume Cronyn (who I met at the theater I was working at, back in the day) told me that he threw himself off of Cleoptara's golden barge at the end of the scene where he was  trying to get Mark Anthony to board the thing - it was his last contracted scene, and he was so giddy at being done with the filming he went over the side when the director yelled cut and swam to shore hollering "I'm free! I'm free!". Costume and all.

Lots of stuff worth quoting; Phil's problem was that he held the Romans personally responsible for Egypt's decline.

And my favorite story from the shooting of this film comes from the little boy who played Caesarion: He was sitting next to Ms. Taylor during the big entry into Rome scene, when she asked him how he was doing (she was always very kind to him, he said.) He told her he was fine, and she whisper "That's good, because Auntie Elizabeth is about to barf!"...

All of those Hollywood historical epics really had a big impact on me as a child. I really loved El Cid(Sophia Lauren❤️), The Fall of the Roman Empire(SL again), Cleopatra, Land of the Pharoahs, The Egyptian among others. I would also lay on the floor in my home paging through my families World Book encyclopedias(precurser to surfing the web) reading about ancient times enjoying the illustrations. Making my parents order those Time Life books about history that used to b advertised in the TV Guide. Great times!!! I guess my love of those things drew me to Tekumel like a moth to the flame(may Vhimula's flame burn ever bright!!!).

Oh my do I need to see those movies. It has been awhile...

H:0)

PS I post without reading the whole thread and I get to The Glorious General's post...I'm sloooow...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on May 31, 2016, 08:37:11 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901002
All fantastically inspirational films. Although some what later than the ones you mentioned Lion in Winter ( one of my all time favourites), Polanski's Macbeth, and The Name of the Rose are also great to draw from. I based a "Matriarch" of the Ito clan on Hepburn's Eleanor. Also did Name of the Rose, set in a Pechani keep/shrine of Nyesst on the Frontier of the Ssu lands, with a Pariah Gods twist to it. Really worked out well. Kind of like Chirine's Casablanca inspired adventure nobody got it until near the climax of the scenario when the main NPC, Villa'am of Bashakkarruvilla monk of Quoth, and one time heretic, put on his "hoops of glass" to read a scroll in Sunuz. The lights went on all at once and the players started bombarding my DM Screens with BBQ chips and pretzels, in total disgust and embarrassment.

Shemek


I really need to travel!!! Sounds awesome!!! I'm sure your games would be most entertaining!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 31, 2016, 08:48:50 PM
Had a bit of fun today at work. I was on a job site checking some installations when an old English woman came up to me and of the senior techs, who happens to be a member of my "Old Group", a member of the current Friday Night Game, and on of my best and oldest friends, and asks us in a loud and demanding voice: " What are you doing? What are you fellows looking at?" I told her, with a straight face, we're checking the veracity of the interfogulator, to which my friend piped in without missing a beat "Ya, it looks the polarity of the phase modulator is off spec, but we forgot to bring the hydro-spanners." She looked at us and said: "Oh, I see. That doesn't sound too bad. Carry on then." Now what I can't figure out is who was taking the piss out of whom? Also, what the hell was she doing on a major construction site?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on May 31, 2016, 10:01:50 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;901004
I really need to travel!!! Sounds awesome!!! I'm sure your games would be most entertaining!!!

H:0)

Mighty Hrugga of the Epics, if you ever make it Pechano let me know. My villa is about half a tsan outside of Teshkoa and I can be found in the archery yard most days. I have a stuffed Black Ssu that makes a wonderful target, although I have to admit that he's getting long in the tooth and a bit tatty. I'll have to replace him soon with a new one. Now unless I'm mistaken I think Lord Chirine mentioned that there were also Green and Brown Ssu. I'll have to get me one. The gates are always open for friends. If you give me enough notice I'll have the local priest of Vihar come over. He's a nice enough fellow and makes great beverages with alcohol, which I believe he calls mixed drinks. After a few of these he becomes the life of the party. Keeps me in stitches he does. :p

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 01, 2016, 03:12:21 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;900950
It's very sweet that she was kind to him.  And that is a GREAT quip.

"Boom!  Zing!  Tantantaraa!  BLURRCH!"


He got the part because his dad was one of the art directors, and he had a website where he told some wonderful stories about his very short career in films. He said that, despite being the Big Name Star, Ms. Taylor was always very kind and concerned about not only him but any of the kids on the set.

Do we dare show the panel from "Asterix and Cleoptara"?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 01, 2016, 03:22:29 AM
I've really enjoyed everyone's comments on all those wonderful films! They, along with more then a few books, were the 'cultural background' for us when we were gaming back in Ye Olden Days. We'd all seen these same movies, read a lot of the same books, and so we 'knew' how to be adventurers and heros - and heroines! - when the game got started. I've always wanted to do a sort of 'film festival' with all these movies for people; I have a lot of them in my collection, and big screens are available. So's a popcorn machine, too... :)

Let me add one more, that I highly doubt that anyone besides me has seen - the very rare and very elusive "The Adventures of Hajji Baba". It's possibly the best 'player-character movie' I have ever seen, as it provides a great guide to how to outsmart the bad guys and stay alive under unfortunate circumstances.

The downside is that it's very hard to find, but is very occasionally shown on Turner Classic Movies.

Wonderful stuff, people! Keep it coming! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on June 01, 2016, 04:49:58 AM
The Adventures of Hajji Baba is available on Youtube for those who are willing to take the time. I'm going to 'cast it on my TV some time in the future as I'm up to my neck in prep for a major con this weekend. Running five games (none of which are Tekumel based I'm afraid as I don't think I'd get the player signup. I have enough trouble trying to get 6 players for a RQ6 Clark Ashton Smith based scenario out of some 11,000 attendees.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwkpe2ykN6E
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 01, 2016, 06:54:32 AM
Not sure if this has been asked before, but I was just wondering if there are any specific gestures or movements associated with greetings or as physical signs of deference/respect such as bowing or handshakes etc.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Opaopajr on June 01, 2016, 10:52:30 AM
Ahh, fashion and pageantry... it does wonders in conveying mood and wonder. Studio Hollywood knew what it was doing back in the days lighting the screen afire with heart clutching budgets and casts of thousands. Now if only we can sell lush narrative description to the young 'uns as well as player-side "gotcha, GM!" power widgets in the age of '101 More Spells & Class Features to Domin8 Your Table'...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on June 01, 2016, 11:07:50 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901028
Mighty Hrugga of the Epics, if you ever make it Pechano let me know. My villa is about half a tsan outside of Teshkoa and I can be found in the archery yard most days. I have a stuffed Black Ssu that makes a wonderful target, although I have to admit that he's getting long in the tooth and a bit tatty. I'll have to replace him soon with a new one. Now unless I'm mistaken I think Lord Chirine mentioned that there were also Green and Brown Ssu. I'll have to get me one. The gates are always open for friends. If you give me enough notice I'll have the local priest of Vihar come over. He's a nice enough fellow and makes great beverages with alcohol, which I believe he calls mixed drinks. After a few of these he becomes the life of the party. Keeps me in stitches he does. :p

Shemek.


The pleasure would be all mine. I will have to check my trophy room. I may have a sutible stuffed baddie ready for archery practice. I even have a nice four-bolt steel crossbow not seen to often in the Empires(quite compact). Practice makes perfect my clan-mothers always used to say...Be well my friend.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 01, 2016, 02:25:10 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;901056
The Adventures of Hajji Baba is available on Youtube for those who are willing to take the time. I'm going to 'cast it on my TV some time in the future as I'm up to my neck in prep for a major con this weekend. Running five games (none of which are Tekumel based I'm afraid as I don't think I'd get the player signup. I have enough trouble trying to get 6 players for a RQ6 Clark Ashton Smith based scenario out of some 11,000 attendees.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwkpe2ykN6E

Wonderful! Thank you!!!

Best of luck at the convention - I hear you about getting people, too...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 01, 2016, 02:36:37 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901059
Not sure if this has been asked before, but I was just wondering if there are any specific gestures or movements associated with greetings or as physical signs of deference/respect such as bowing or handshakes etc.

Shemek.

No, I don't think it has.

Generally, juniors salute seniors. A lower-ranking clan will salute a higher one, and the higher one will return the greeting as a mark of respect and politeness. Temples have specific greetings, like the Temple of Vimuhla's three-fingers (index, middle, ring) laid across the opposite upper arm. The military is usually right fist to left chest, and this is true for all legions - in a military context. The general rule on seniority holds, with the added consideration of the status of the legions involved. Generally, a light legions salutes a medium, salutes a heavy, with date of foundation taken into effect.

Bows are also used, with the depth of the bow dependent on the formality of the occasion and the relative status of the people involved. I don't recall handshakes ever being used, in Phil's games.

Inside the family / clan, the convention seems to be that the junior greets the senior, with 'rank' being by age and generation. "The Junior Wife greets the Senior Wife", is returned in reverse, but this is a very formal usage that generally is seen out in public and very rarely 'in the family'. (If it's being used in the family quarters, it may indicate trouble.) Use of the formal family terms is a mark of respect to one's siblings, elders, and parents; as we've commented here, a lot depends on context and situation.

Does this help, at all?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 01, 2016, 02:38:54 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr;901076
Ahh, fashion and pageantry... it does wonders in conveying mood and wonder. Studio Hollywood knew what it was doing back in the days lighting the screen afire with heart clutching budgets and casts of thousands. Now if only we can sell lush narrative description to the young 'uns as well as player-side "gotcha, GM!" power widgets in the age of '101 More Spells & Class Features to Domin8 Your Table'...

I'd agree with this. From my admittedly aged perspective, a lot of gaming these days seems to be all about number-crunching and very little about character and setting. 'Roll-playing', compared to 'role-playing'. Not saying what's good or bad, but a comparison between the two styles over time.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 01, 2016, 03:46:19 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;901110
No, I don't think it has.

Generally, juniors salute seniors. A lower-ranking clan will salute a higher one, and the higher one will return the greeting as a mark of respect and politeness. Temples have specific greetings, like the Temple of Vimuhla's three-fingers (index, middle, ring) laid across the opposite upper arm. The military is usually right fist to left chest, and this is true for all legions - in a military context. The general rule on seniority holds, with the added consideration of the status of the legions involved. Generally, a light legions salutes a medium, salutes a heavy, with date of foundation taken into effect.

Bows are also used, with the depth of the bow dependent on the formality of the occasion and the relative status of the people involved. I don't recall handshakes ever being used, in Phil's games.

Inside the family / clan, the convention seems to be that the junior greets the senior, with 'rank' being by age and generation. "The Junior Wife greets the Senior Wife", is returned in reverse, but this is a very formal usage that generally is seen out in public and very rarely 'in the family'. (If it's being used in the family quarters, it may indicate trouble.) Use of the formal family terms is a mark of respect to one's siblings, elders, and parents; as we've commented here, a lot depends on context and situation.

Does this help, at all?

Oh yes very much so. One thing, when you mentioned juniors saluting seniors, etc. Is this a physical salute, ie hand to head or more of a verbal salute? " Ave Caesar ", or something similar in Tsolyani. Would you be able to share some other Temple salutes like Karajan's or Ksarul. I believe Phil describes the Sarku Temple Salute as a sketch of his worm symbol in the air.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 01, 2016, 03:48:11 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;901112
I'd agree with this. From my admittedly aged perspective, a lot of gaming these days seems to be all about number-crunching and very little about character and setting. 'Roll-playing', compared to 'role-playing'. Not saying what's good or bad, but a comparison between the two styles over time.

I feel the same way sometimes. When did numbers usurp imagination? I didn't get that memo.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 01, 2016, 05:28:33 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901114
I feel the same way sometimes. When did numbers usurp imagination? I didn't get that memo.

Shemek.

When they started marketing to 13 year old non wargamers.  Take a bunch of 13 year old boys, remove adult supervision, give one of them the tiny shred of nugatory authority of being a DM, and... well, we've all read "Lord of the Flies," right?  So more rules became "necessary" for their target audience.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 02, 2016, 02:34:22 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901113
Oh yes very much so. One thing, when you mentioned juniors saluting seniors, etc. Is this a physical salute, ie hand to head or more of a verbal salute? " Ave Caesar ", or something similar in Tsolyani. Would you be able to share some other Temple salutes like Karajan's or Ksarul. I believe Phil describes the Sarku Temple Salute as a sketch of his worm symbol in the air.

Shemek.


Salutes are sometimes formal gestures, like the fist to chest of soldiers, but are usually less elaborate. Anything from a nod of the head between equals, to a deep bow and even kneeling before an Imperial Prince or Princess, or a polite bow between different people. The Vimuhla gesture is usually shared between Vimuhla people, as is the Sarku gesture of the Five-Headed Worm. You will also see the 'fingers to one's own lips, then to the other person's lips' but that is very much a lovers' or spouses' gesture. I'll have a look and see what others there are - it's been a while.

Usually, it's verbal, with the most formal greeting being the first one of the day upon meeting someone, and then a 'sir', title, or polite phrase showing respect afterwards. For example, Si N'te is usually addressed as 'Mistress', a polite translation of the Tsolyani word; a little more formal will be 'Lady', short for 'Lady of the House', her formal title as head of the household. (I am not 'Lord of the House'; that's a title and position reserved for the lady of the house, usually the senior wife.) If it's a formal occasion, it's 'Lady' as in 'Your Ladyship', and a temple occasion as 'First Dancer', which is her title and rank in the Temple of Mretten.

I am usually addressed as 'Sir', as most of the time I'm in military situations, and 'Lord' the rest of the time if people need to be formal. At home, it's 'Husband', which may be the title I'm proudest of. Also a family title is 'Poppa', from the kids, as in "Poppa, can I have the palanquin tonight?" If it's a formal temple occasion, then 'Master of the Energies' can be used. If I'm being official when at home, then I might use Their Ladyship's formal titles, as in, "Senior Wife, would you please ask the twins not to practice their sorcery indoors?" Going the other way, the Glorious General would normally address me as 'Kasi', my rank in his legion; I would salute him, and address him by 'my General'. On the other hand, if I was acting in the capacity of an Imperial official that ranked him, he would salute me and use 'Lord'. It can lead to moments where I would give the General an order as a Imperial official, he'd salute, and then he would turn around and give me the same order back again in my 'persona' as his staff Kasi and I'd salute him.

Social inferiors are always treated with respect. (As are superiors, obviously!) One does not make rude remarks to them, as that would show that one is ignoble. I address the household by their first names, when we are 'at home' in the family wing of the house, and by a more formal title like 'Chief Assassin' or 'Mistress' for the Ladies-In-Waiting.

It all depends on the social situation at the moment, and knowing what to say when to whom is a very important part of one's education. In general, be polite and respectful, and you'll do fine. The words show in very accurate manner what the social relationships are, and are how society functions.

Is this helping, at all?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 02, 2016, 02:35:33 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901118
When they started marketing to 13 year old non wargamers.  Take a bunch of 13 year old boys, remove adult supervision, give one of them the tiny shred of nugatory authority of being a DM, and... well, we've all read "Lord of the Flies," right?  So more rules became "necessary" for their target audience.


Oh, dear. That would explain a few things...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 02, 2016, 04:53:28 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;901183
Salutes are sometimes formal gestures, like the fist to chest of soldiers, but are usually less elaborate. Anything from a nod of the head between equals, to a deep bow and even kneeling before an Imperial Prince or Princess, or a polite bow between different people. The Vimuhla gesture is usually shared between Vimuhla people, as is the Sarku gesture of the Five-Headed Worm. You will also see the 'fingers to one's own lips, then to the other person's lips' but that is very much a lovers' or spouses' gesture. I'll have a look and see what others there are - it's been a while.

Usually, it's verbal, with the most formal greeting being the first one of the day upon meeting someone, and then a 'sir', title, or polite phrase showing respect afterwards. For example, Si N'te is usually addressed as 'Mistress', a polite translation of the Tsolyani word; a little more formal will be 'Lady', short for 'Lady of the House', her formal title as head of the household. (I am not 'Lord of the House'; that's a title and position reserved for the lady of the house, usually the senior wife.) If it's a formal occasion, it's 'Lady' as in 'Your Ladyship', and a temple occasion as 'First Dancer', which is her title and rank in the Temple of Mretten.

I am usually addressed as 'Sir', as most of the time I'm in military situations, and 'Lord' the rest of the time if people need to be formal. At home, it's 'Husband', which may be the title I'm proudest of. Also a family title is 'Poppa', from the kids, as in "Poppa, can I have the palanquin tonight?" If it's a formal temple occasion, then 'Master of the Energies' can be used. If I'm being official when at home, then I might use Their Ladyship's formal titles, as in, "Senior Wife, would you please ask the twins not to practice their sorcery indoors?" Going the other way, the Glorious General would normally address me as 'Kasi', my rank in his legion; I would salute him, and address him by 'my General'. On the other hand, if I was acting in the capacity of an Imperial official that ranked him, he would salute me and use 'Lord'. It can lead to moments where I would give the General an order as a Imperial official, he'd salute, and then he would turn around and give me the same order back again in my 'persona' as his staff Kasi and I'd salute him.

Social inferiors are always treated with respect. (As are superiors, obviously!) One does not make rude remarks to them, as that would show that one is ignoble. I address the household by their first names, when we are 'at home' in the family wing of the house, and by a more formal title like 'Chief Assassin' or 'Mistress' for the Ladies-In-Waiting.

It all depends on the social situation at the moment, and knowing what to say when to whom is a very important part of one's education. In general, be polite and respectful, and you'll do fine. The words show in very accurate manner what the social relationships are, and are how society functions.

Is this helping, at all?


Perfect. Thank you. We're going to be doing a lot more "societal interaction" in the upcoming game sessions and I want to get it right.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 02, 2016, 02:49:00 PM
On a COMPLETELY different subject, Chirine, have you read Terry Pratchett's delightful Raising Steam?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 03, 2016, 02:33:12 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901201
Perfect. Thank you. We're going to be doing a lot more "societal interaction" in the upcoming game sessions and I want to get it right.

Shemek.

Great! I'm not going to worry too much about 'proper' terms, as this is supposed to be a game and not a class. The language books do have a Tsolyani-English dictionary, and I have tried to give the flavor of the conversations over pedantic accuracy. Phil never worried about it all that much, so why should we? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 03, 2016, 02:50:20 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901260
On a COMPLETELY different subject, Chirine, have you read Terry Pratchett's delightful Raising Steam?

Short answer: No, I have not.

Long answer: I pretty much gave up on modern / current F/SF in the middle 1990s, mostly because of all the politics and gargling that was going on in both local and national F/SF fandom at the time. I got very tired of all the 'political correctness' that was being bandied about, and after being told that myself and my fellow gamers, costumers, media fans, etc., etc. were not welcome in their version of fandom I took all the very strident advice to heart and took me and my money elsewhere. Of course, once I did that, and stopped buying people's products / paying for their fun, there was an amazing amount of weeping and wailing that went on.

(I've had the same thing happen in gaming; people have told me that my particular style of miniatures-heavy role-playing games are not welcome 'round here, dang it! and I said fine, no problem, and took my money elsewhere. There are, it seems, plenty of miniatures firms who are more then willing to do business with me, in the 'plenty of other fish in the sea' vein. And, of course, the question does come up, "Why aren't you spending money in here, like you used to?" Sigh.  Anyway... )

I kept (and keep) reading the genre, but it's been mostly revisiting and rediscovering the 'classics' and some very fun and obscure stuff that I'd never heard of back in the day. I was sort of getting my feet wet in the genre again when the Tor Books series on Gary's Appendix N came out, and that put me right off my feed. No sale here for Tor; but then they seem to be more worried about being politically correct then selling me books.

Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 03, 2016, 02:55:48 AM
Tor Book series on Appendix N?  You mean that list of books Gary happened to like that somehow became holy writ?  Somebody did a series on that?  Do I want to know?

And as far as Terry Pratchett ... You'll like his stuff.  Trust me.  A vicious satirical wit... the "Campaign for Equal Heights" trying to convince the dwarfs they're oppressed...  

And as for Raising Steam, I tell my friends and relations "If you want to know why I have a 61 year long fascination for trains, just read this book."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 03, 2016, 03:10:56 AM
Okay, I went to Tor.Com and read the first two "Advanced Readings on Dungeons and Dragons", the ones on Robert E. Howard and Poul Anderson.

I don't know who the fuck the two wankers who wrote that are, but I want to punch them both in the face so hard they shit their own livers.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 03, 2016, 03:17:36 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901332
Tor Book series on Appendix N?  You mean that list of books Gary happened to like that somehow became holy writ?  Somebody did a series on that?  Do I want to know?

And as far as Terry Pratchett ... You'll like his stuff.  Trust me.  A vicious satirical wit... the "Campaign for Equal Heights" trying to convince the dwarfs they're oppressed...  

And as for Raising Steam, I tell my friends and relations "If you want to know why I have a 61 year long fascination for trains, just read this book."
**********
Yep. Please see http://www.tor.com/features/series/advanced-readings-in-dungeons--dragons/ (http://www.tor.com/features/series/advanced-readings-in-dungeons--dragons/)

After I read all the articles, I wrote this: http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/2015/11/appendix-n-torcom-and-political.html (http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/2015/11/appendix-n-torcom-and-political.html)
**********
I'll have a look.
**********
Try "Steam Bird", for the same thing. This hearkens back to the days when me dear old dad worked for the AEC, when the solution to everything was to put a nuclear reactor in it. His stories of the AAR's reaction to the proposal for open-cycle reactors for steam locomotives were hysterically funny. Read this book, and I'll be willing to bet that you'll laugh so hard you'll cry... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 03, 2016, 03:19:23 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901334
Okay, I went to Tor.Com and read the first two "Advanced Readings on Dungeons and Dragons", the ones on Robert E. Howard and Poul Anderson.

I don't know who the fuck the two wankers who wrote that are, but I want to punch them both in the face so hard they shit their own livers.

Oops; you beat me to the keyboard. The rest of the series is even more, well, um,... :rolleyes:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 03, 2016, 03:29:45 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;901335
**********
Yep. Please see http://www.tor.com/features/series/advanced-readings-in-dungeons--dragons/ (http://www.tor.com/features/series/advanced-readings-in-dungeons--dragons/)

After I read all the articles, I wrote this: http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/2015/11/appendix-n-torcom-and-political.html (http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/2015/11/appendix-n-torcom-and-political.html)
**********
I'll have a look.
**********
Try "Steam Bird", for the same thing. This hearkens back to the days when me dear old dad worked for the AEC, when the solution to everything was to put a nuclear reactor in it. His stories of the AAR's reaction to the proposal for open-cycle reactors for steam locomotives were hysterically funny. Read this book, and I'll be willing to bet that you'll laugh so hard you'll cry... :)

Remember the proposal for the nuclear ramjet bomber that used liquid sodium sprayed onto an atomic pile?  Weehawken!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 03, 2016, 03:33:47 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;901336
Oops; you beat me to the keyboard. The rest of the series is even more, well, um,... :rolleyes:

I found them both utterly inane; Episode I, Robert E. Howard, is "Somebody writing in 1930 didn't have 21st century sensibilities!"

No shit, Sherlock.

The second, on Poul Anderson, is even worse.  "I've seen all this stuff before!"  This one is right up there with people saying that Shakespeare is full of cliches.

Really, it was absurd.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 03, 2016, 03:41:18 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901338
Remember the proposal for the nuclear ramjet bomber that used liquid sodium sprayed onto an atomic pile?  Weehawken!

That'll teach them Rooshins!!! Or, if you will, the proposal to dig the sea-level canal from the Pacific to the Caribbean across Nicaragua with nuclear explosions? Or Project Orion, which involved launching very large payloads into orbit with a series of nuclear detonations?

Ah. me' Those where the days, weren't they? And we haven't even touched on the "Davy Crockett", yet... :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 03, 2016, 03:43:34 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901339
I found them both utterly inane; Episode I, Robert E. Howard, is "Somebody writing in 1930 didn't have 21st century sensibilities!"

No shit, Sherlock.

The second, on Poul Anderson, is even worse.  "I've seen all this stuff before!"  This one is right up there with people saying that Shakespeare is full of cliches.

Really, it was absurd.

Shame on you. This is currently the state of the art in advanced thought in F/SF circles, you know...

Sort of like the complaints from people that John Carter copied a lot of stuff from Star Wars...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 03, 2016, 06:56:46 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;901330
Great! I'm not going to worry too much about 'proper' terms, as this is supposed to be a game and not a class. The language books do have a Tsolyani-English dictionary, and I have tried to give the flavor of the conversations over pedantic accuracy. Phil never worried about it all that much, so why should we? :)


Oh, hell no! Who needs all that? I just want to be able to describe to the players what they see, and tell them what they should be doing in a particular situation if they even ask. In the past I normally glossed over this or said something like: " They greet you formally". I figured since you were able to tell us how it was in ye olden tymes, why not incorporate some "authenticity" into the game. If the guys were going to be in the presence of the Chaegosh then I might super detail it, but normally I don't sweat it. Thanks again.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on June 03, 2016, 07:55:42 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;901342
Shame on you. This is currently the state of the art in advanced thought in F/SF circles, you know...

Sort of like the complaints from people that John Carter copied a lot of stuff from Star Wars...


At first I was going to chime in from the peanut gallery. Then I says to myself, don't bother. Now I thinks, thank you Gentlemen. You both have pretty much said what needed to be said. At least I KNOW THAT I AM IN THE RIGHT PLACE...
Gents be well and keep reading!!!

H;0)

PS I also wanted to get your opinions on Tolkien's well known allegory of Middle-Earth and Democratic Socialism during WWII. I expect prompt answers you "OF"s. Oh did I mention , I am an artiste...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 03, 2016, 12:57:13 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901332
Tor Book series on Appendix N?  You mean that list of books Gary happened to like that somehow became holy writ?  Somebody did a series on that?  Do I want to know?

And as far as Terry Pratchett ... You'll like his stuff.  Trust me.  A vicious satirical wit... the "Campaign for Equal Heights" trying to convince the dwarfs they're oppressed...  

And as for Raising Steam, I tell my friends and relations "If you want to know why I have a 61 year long fascination for trains, just read this book."
I'll join Gronan's recommendation...sir Terry Pratchett is very, very good!


Quote from: chirine ba kal;901335
**********
Yep. Please see http://www.tor.com/features/series/advanced-readings-in-dungeons--dragons/ (http://www.tor.com/features/series/advanced-readings-in-dungeons--dragons/)

After I read all the articles, I wrote this: http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/2015/11/appendix-n-torcom-and-political.html (http://chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/2015/11/appendix-n-torcom-and-political.html)
**********
I'll have a look.
**********
Try "Steam Bird", for the same thing. This hearkens back to the days when me dear old dad worked for the AEC, when the solution to everything was to put a nuclear reactor in it. His stories of the AAR's reaction to the proposal for open-cycle reactors for steam locomotives were hysterically funny. Read this book, and I'll be willing to bet that you'll laugh so hard you'll cry... :)
Oh, that's hilarious!
Quote from: TOR writers
But in talking about The Lord of the Rings—and I do certainly want to talk about this book, because I love the heck out of it, and I didn’t realize how much I loved it until I reread it recently—we also have to talk about the other oliphant in the room: that Gary Gygax didn’t much like Tolkien’s stuff.

Maybe “didn’t much like” is too strong of a description when you’re talking about a book that Gygax himself specifically listed as an influence on Dungeons and Dragons, but it’s certainly true that Gygax consistently tried to distance himself from the Tolkien influence and, more importantly, from the perception of the Tolkien influence.
That one is spot-on. But really, people, I didn't read this to learn what you two think of JRRT...And this one just gets the stupid award.
Quote
It’s impossible to deny that Tolkien is great at world-building—is anyone better?—but that’s not the only thing that makes The Lord of the Rings so remarkable.
Is anyone better? Let me think, Sherlock... Zelazni, MAR Barker, Geoffrey C. Grabowski, Greg Stafford, Jack Vance? And those are just those off the top of my head, which have published RPG settings - like Tolkien. I can probably find others without much effort.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901338
Remember the proposal for the nuclear ramjet bomber that used liquid sodium sprayed onto an atomic pile?  Weehawken!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;901341
That'll teach them Rooshins!!! Or, if you will, the proposal to dig the sea-level canal from the Pacific to the Caribbean across Nicaragua with nuclear explosions? Or Project Orion, which involved launching very large payloads into orbit with a series of nuclear detonations?

Ah. me' Those where the days, weren't they? And we haven't even touched on the "Davy Crockett", yet... :eek:
These two help me understand where the obsession with unusual machinery came from in pulps;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;901342
Shame on you. This is currently the state of the art in advanced thought in F/SF circles, you know...

Sort of like the complaints from people that John Carter copied a lot of stuff from Star Wars...
When advanced thought isn't good for anything apart from politics, I'd question how correct is the "advanced" qualifier. Or maybe I should question the "thought" part;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 03, 2016, 01:29:20 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;901356
PS I also wanted to get your opinions on Tolkien's well known allegory of Middle-Earth and Democratic Socialism during WWII.

* takes drink *

The only problem with a "Dumbshit in F&SF Fandom" drinking game is that my liver isn't young enough to stand it any more.

To quote Saccharista Crisplock in The Truth, by Sir Terry Pratchett:  "They look sort of like a man's, um, you know.  But you really have to want to see a man's um, you know there."

Or to quote Tom Lehrer:
"When correctly viewed, everything is lewd!"  Or 'politically incorrect'.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 03, 2016, 01:35:03 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;901341
Or, if you will, the proposal to dig the sea-level canal from the Pacific to the Caribbean across Nicaragua with nuclear explosions? Or Project Orion, which involved launching very large payloads into orbit with a series of nuclear detonations?

Great suffering Fnord, I'd forgotten about those!

Kids, the 50s were incredible; we were suspended between believing that the Perfidious Bolsheviks were going to destroy the world in a cataclysm of Mutually Assured Destruction, and the belief that Mister Happy Atom would solve all the world's problems.


And, of course, as Chirine mentioned, the "Davy Crockett."  "Let's give an atomic weapon to a second lieutenant!  What could possibly go wrong?"

Besides of course the obvious questions of "What's the range on this thing, and what did you say the blast radius was?"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 03, 2016, 01:39:38 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901392
* takes drink *

The only problem with a "Dumbshit in F&SF Fandom" drinking game is that my liver isn't young enough to stand it any more.

To quote Saccharista Crisplock in The Truth, by Sir Terry Pratchett:  "They look sort of like a man's, um, you know.  But you really have to want to see a man's um, you know there."

Or to quote Tom Lehrer:
"When correctly viewed, everything is lewd!"  Or 'politically incorrect'.

This, and I'm not going to play that drinking game - I suspect there might be alcohol poisoning waiting for both of us there... :D

(I'm surprised the TOR authors didn't say a word about female representation in Jack Vance stories. Maybe they're just Vance fans;)).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 03, 2016, 02:20:16 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901349
Oh, hell no! Who needs all that? I just want to be able to describe to the players what they see, and tell them what they should be doing in a particular situation if they even ask. In the past I normally glossed over this or said something like: " They greet you formally". I figured since you were able to tell us how it was in ye olden tymes, why not incorporate some "authenticity" into the game. If the guys were going to be in the presence of the Chaegosh then I might super detail it, but normally I don't sweat it. Thanks again.

Shemek.

You're very welcome! About all Phil usually did was use a more formal form of address; titles were used when needed in the appropriate situations. He often remarked that the kind of rude badinage that he saw amongst the gamers at the table would never have been tolerated in Tsolyani society; one just does not use the kind of 'American' idioms that he used to see. Which may be why he tended to like the conversation in our group - we didn't do that kind of thing either.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 03, 2016, 02:24:58 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;901356
At first I was going to chime in from the peanut gallery. Then I says to myself, don't bother. Now I thinks, thank you Gentlemen. You both have pretty much said what needed to be said. At least I KNOW THAT I AM IN THE RIGHT PLACE...
Gents be well and keep reading!!!

H;0)

PS I also wanted to get your opinions on Tolkien's well known allegory of Middle-Earth and Democratic Socialism during WWII. I expect prompt answers you "OF"s. Oh did I mention , I am an artiste...


I think it had a lot more to do with the British Union of Fascists and the Mitford sisters, myself. It's been a very 'understated' part of UK history just how popular the Blackshirts were, when he was writing, and how much people feared a fascist coup. There's now a cottage industry in gaming based off it, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 03, 2016, 02:26:23 PM
Off to work; more later. First coat of satin black as an undercoat on the tubeway car; metallic silver yet to come! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on June 03, 2016, 03:30:03 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;901401
Off to work; more later. First coat of satin black as an undercoat on the tubeway car; metallic silver yet to come! :)

Uncle, I can't wait to see how it turns out!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 04, 2016, 02:13:21 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;901387
I'll join Gronan's recommendation...sir Terry Pratchett is very, very good!

Oh, that's hilarious!

That one is spot-on. But really, people, I didn't read this to learn what you two think of JRRT...And this one just gets the stupid award.

Is anyone better? Let me think, Sherlock... Zelazni, MAR Barker, Geoffrey C. Grabowski, Greg Stafford, Jack Vance? And those are just those off the top of my head, which have published RPG settings - like Tolkien. I can probably find others without much effort.

These two help me understand where the obsession with unusual machinery came from in pulps;).

When advanced thought isn't good for anything apart from politics, I'd question how correct is the "advanced" qualifier. Or maybe I should question the "thought" part;).


All very good points - you are a delight, you know.

And yes, the fascination with 'super-science' gadgets goes back a long way, and while Phil was not a big expert on technology, he did have more then a few of these things lying around. And when we found them, we usually regretted it... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 04, 2016, 02:15:41 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901394
Great suffering Fnord, I'd forgotten about those!

Kids, the 50s were incredible; we were suspended between believing that the Perfidious Bolsheviks were going to destroy the world in a cataclysm of Mutually Assured Destruction, and the belief that Mister Happy Atom would solve all the world's problems.

And, of course, as Chirine mentioned, the "Davy Crockett."  "Let's give an atomic weapon to a second lieutenant!  What could possibly go wrong?"

Besides of course the obvious questions of "What's the range on this thing, and what did you say the blast radius was?"


Like the - I kid you not! - nuclear satchel charge? Set the timer, and run like the dickens... :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 04, 2016, 02:18:27 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;901396
This, and I'm not going to play that drinking game - I suspect there might be alcohol poisoning waiting for both of us there... :D

(I'm surprised the TOR authors didn't say a word about female representation in Jack Vance stories. Maybe they're just Vance fans;)).


I think we'd all be in liver failure in less then fifteen minutes, frankly.

Same here - I could be a cynic, and ask if Tor has the rights to the series. It also may be that Tor is a little sensitive on the subject of women, given the issues they've had in the recent past.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 04, 2016, 02:36:29 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;901512
Like the - I kid you not! - nuclear satchel charge? Set the timer, and run like the dickens... :eek:

The Gullivernians would have loved it!

(Oh my Lord, the things they dreamed up!)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 04, 2016, 02:37:19 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;901407
Uncle, I can't wait to see how it turns out!!!

H:0)

There will be photos. Got the first coat of metallic silver on the thing, over three coats of acrylic filler, two coats of cobalt blue acrylic as a sealer, and one coat of satin black enamel as the undercoat. Both the satin black and the metallic silver are spray enamels, which will dissolve the open-cell polystyrene foam sphere I used as the basis for this model quicker then you can say "Whoops!" and you try to clean the sticky glue out of the carpet. So, two coats of acrylic over the filler, and everything is fine - so far.

Now, here's one for all of you. The car is a 6" sphere; I am mounting it on a clear Plexiglass base, as there will be times when I will need it as a free-floating model - like when the players wind up in one of the junction stations or the repair yards. My question is: we never ahd a model of either the cars or the stations, so what should I do for a tubeway car station? The opening in the floor for the tubeway will be the same size as the car, with a little 'windage', and as I'm doing this car as a 'midships' model with the door on the greatest diameter, the car will be 'floating about halfway in / out of the tubeway.

I am leaning in the general direction of a pretty 'generic' station, one that takes these cars and not the big ones, as I think this would get more use in games over time. The base, will have to be about three inches thick, to make the car float at the right level, and I'm wondering if I should try to do a little 'forced perspective' modeling and install the "dim purple lights" that Phil said are in the tunnels. My other option would be to rebate the underlayment for the floor, and have valence lights with purple filters to give a nice glow to the thing as it sits in the station. I am also sort of assuming that I am going to want to do the three colored 'tiles' in the floor that are the panels that summon the cars and indicate status. (LEDs, no problem.) Walls? The service rooms off the corridor that leads to the actual station?

My thought is that this will be about a foot wide and deep, so that I can use it as a 'super tile' in Underworld adventures. I'll have to make the stairs that lead 'up' from the base level of the game board to the station entrance, but that I can due in my sleep. Same thing with stairs down from the surface, if that's how the players get into the station.

Comments? Thoughts?

Hey - would there be any interest in a model of the Underworld in "Tomb Complex of Nereshanbo"? Working water feature is possible - one of the layouts I saw at one of my club's shows had a working canal with canal boats; what knocked the socks off me were the scale swans and cygnets that came along behind the narrowboats... - but to make the thing easier to transport I'd just use poured resin or something.

I love to build stuff - you think it shows? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 04, 2016, 02:39:33 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901521
The Gullivernians would have loved it!

(Oh my Lord, the things they dreamed up!)

I do miss Fred; he passed away a few years ago, and nobody really noticed except on the Blackmoor forum.

Fredrick P. Funk III, better known as Funk the First, King of the Orcs under Blackmoor and creator of the Orcian Way. God rest him.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 04, 2016, 02:42:10 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;901523
I do miss Fred; he passed away a few years ago, and nobody really noticed except on the Blackmoor forum.

Fredrick P. Funk III, better known as Funk the First, King of the Orcs under Blackmoor and creator of the Orcian Way. God rest him.

Yes, I  heard some time later.  Too young.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 04, 2016, 02:53:48 AM
Photo, as the thing dries on the workbench...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]107[/ATTACH]
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 04, 2016, 05:45:30 AM
Uncle, that's an amazing amount of work you did there, says the guy that couldn't finish the same stuff even if he sacrificed all his paid leave:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;901514
I think we'd all be in liver failure in less then fifteen minutes, frankly.

Same here - I could be a cynic, and ask if Tor has the rights to the series. It also may be that Tor is a little sensitive on the subject of women, given the issues they've had in the recent past.
I suspect you might be right, alas. On both counts;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Kellri on June 04, 2016, 07:11:04 AM
Three hundred and fifty two pages of this shit? Seriously?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on June 04, 2016, 08:33:32 AM
Some underworld questions:

Roughly how many entrances are there? How well known are they? And how many would the average citizen of (Jakalla/whatever city) know about? Could they go oh sure go to blank and talk to so and so, they'll hook you up.

Physically how big is Jakalla's Underworld? The city has like 45,000 citizens and we know roughly how big the city itself is. Seeing the pictures of it both gives a good indication of scale and a bad one at the same time if that makes any sense. I always assumed most were roughly the size and shape of the city above.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on June 04, 2016, 10:25:50 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;901522
There will be photos. Got the first coat of metallic silver on the thing, over three coats of acrylic filler, two coats of cobalt blue acrylic as a sealer, and one coat of satin black enamel as the undercoat. Both the satin black and the metallic silver are spray enamels, which will dissolve the open-cell polystyrene foam sphere I used as the basis for this model quicker then you can say "Whoops!" and you try to clean the sticky glue out of the carpet. So, two coats of acrylic over the filler, and everything is fine - so far.

Now, here's one for all of you. The car is a 6" sphere; I am mounting it on a clear Plexiglass base, as there will be times when I will need it as a free-floating model - like when the players wind up in one of the junction stations or the repair yards. My question is: we never ahd a model of either the cars or the stations, so what should I do for a tubeway car station? The opening in the floor for the tubeway will be the same size as the car, with a little 'windage', and as I'm doing this car as a 'midships' model with the door on the greatest diameter, the car will be 'floating about halfway in / out of the tubeway.

I am leaning in the general direction of a pretty 'generic' station, one that takes these cars and not the big ones, as I think this would get more use in games over time. The base, will have to be about three inches thick, to make the car float at the right level, and I'm wondering if I should try to do a little 'forced perspective' modeling and install the "dim purple lights" that Phil said are in the tunnels. My other option would be to rebate the underlayment for the floor, and have valence lights with purple filters to give a nice glow to the thing as it sits in the station. I am also sort of assuming that I am going to want to do the three colored 'tiles' in the floor that are the panels that summon the cars and indicate status. (LEDs, no problem.) Walls? The service rooms off the corridor that leads to the actual station?

My thought is that this will be about a foot wide and deep, so that I can use it as a 'super tile' in Underworld adventures. I'll have to make the stairs that lead 'up' from the base level of the game board to the station entrance, but that I can due in my sleep. Same thing with stairs down from the surface, if that's how the players get into the station.

Comments? Thoughts?

Hey - would there be any interest in a model of the Underworld in "Tomb Complex of Nereshanbo"? Working water feature is possible - one of the layouts I saw at one of my club's shows had a working canal with canal boats; what knocked the socks off me were the scale swans and cygnets that came along behind the narrowboats... - but to make the thing easier to transport I'd just use poured resin or something.

I love to build stuff - you think it shows? :)


Uncle, a generic station is a good idea. It would be good for me to have a reference point and an idea of the types of rooms/features needed in a station to maintain it. As far as the extras, well purple tube-lights, floor control panel(leds), that all sounds exciting. The only thing that comes to mind is COOL!!! So a generic station would be nice. What time period will your station be from? It might be fun to have a Humanspace era station and then one from maybe Engsvanyali or Bednjallan times(though it may be unneccessary). This could become a major project...

As far as Nareshanbo goes, Uncle you really tempt me!!! I have the book. I still need to read through it. If any of this is not too much trouble, I say go for it. I for one will always be happy to see what you are up to. I know you want to us to keep you busy...Now it is just a matter of getting there to play!!! Be well Uncle.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on June 04, 2016, 10:41:44 AM
Quote from: Kellri;901561
Three hundred and fifty two pages of this shit? Seriously?


Yep! Join the party. Otherwise we'll be seeing you on the Ho Chi Minh trail...Take care either way.

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on June 04, 2016, 11:57:26 AM
Well there is this example to work from when making the station.
http://d.gr-assets.com/books/1298785940l/1770864.jpg (http://d.gr-assets.com/books/1298785940l/1770864.jpg)
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 04, 2016, 12:00:46 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;901514
I think we'd all be in liver failure in less then fifteen minutes, frankly.

Same here - I could be a cynic, and ask if Tor has the rights to the series. It also may be that Tor is a little sensitive on the subject of women, given the issues they've had in the recent past.

I followed the link you posted and I randomly chose three authors whose work I like: Howard, Bellairs, and Wellman. Wow, not much of a PC agenda there. This guy has either not read and comprehended what was written, or is so blinded by ideological bias that he is no longer capable of rational thought. His "misogynistic" this, or "racist" that when talking about the Conan stories raised my blood pressure. God almighty, why do people insist on looking at things through a PC 21st Century lens? Howard wrote in the 30's. Societal norms and values were different then, this does NOt make them wrong within that context.
His dismissal of Face in the Frost tells me the humour was way over his head. It is meant to be a sarcastic, cliché, parody of the Gandalf motif in Fantasy literature. Of course the main characters called Prospero and Roger Bacon are not the two from Shakespeare and history, respectively. In the first few sentences Bellairs clearly says this: "...Prospero, and not the one your thinking of!", but for some reason this guy needs to make a point of telling us that Prospero is a Shakespearian construct and Roger Bacon was an Eleventh Century monk. "Crom's hairy nut sack!", to quote the Glorious General. As an aside, the scene in the village and forest is one of the most evocative and scary scenes ever written in Fantasy Literature, IMO.
 I will bet good money that he didn't actually read very many, if any, of Manley Wade Wellman's stories. His stuff is as old school "Weird" as anything Lovecraft, C.A. Smith, or Howard ever did. The author dismisses the stories as being merely  "old fashioned" as if this is somehow bad. I'm afraid to see what they/he wrote about some of my other favourite authors like Burroughs, or Zelazny.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 04, 2016, 12:33:46 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;901550
Uncle, that's an amazing amount of work you did there, says the guy that couldn't finish the same stuff even if he sacrificed all his paid leave:).

I suspect you might be right, alas. On both counts;).

Thank you! For me, what's on the workbench is a pretty normal stack of stuff. There's the tubeway car, the three types of Barsoomian flyers (10, total; the little scout flyers are off to the left, and the medium and large ones under the car), and the fifty figures that I managed to salvage from the big lot I got stripped. I like to keep busy, and to make things. :)

Sadly, I have to agree. I've seen a lot of this kind of thing go by in the forty-some years I've been involved with F/SF fandom, but it seems to be a lot worse and a lot more strident these days - the past couple of years or so, it's really been ramping up. Not sure why... :(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on June 04, 2016, 12:41:03 PM
We have always been at war with Eastasia.

In 1984 George Orwell postulated that war is necessary to destroy excess production and justify totalitarian measures.

There are people who need a war to fight.

If we overcome every evil of society they'll just have to create a new one.

It's really that simple.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 04, 2016, 12:41:27 PM
Quote from: Kellri;901561
Three hundred and fifty two pages of this shit? Seriously?

Yep, seems to be. You'd think that people had some interest in Phil's creation, and / or talking to somebody who's still gaming like it's 1978. Me, I'm still more then a little bit surprised that our antics all those years ago still have some interest for people, but hey; as long as people have questions, I'll try to answer them.

352 pages, 3,519 posts, 61,605 views, as of a few moments ago. I'm just as surprised as you are, actually, but it is what it is. Pull up a pew. Have a cold one. Make yourself at home.

Ever been to Drinkwater, Texas, podner? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 04, 2016, 01:01:04 PM
From Big Andy: Some underworld questions:
Sure; I assume we're talking about Jakalla, here...

Roughly how many entrances are there? How well known are they? And how many would the average citizen of (Jakalla/whatever city) know about? Could they go oh sure go to blank and talk to so and so, they'll hook you up.

I know of about eight, and there are that many on the map that Phil did. Very few are known 'on the street', but the 'man on the street' assumes that most of the Temples - especially the Change ones - all have their own 'secret' entrances. And everybody knows that if you go to the necropolis, you can get in through the various entrances there. Yes, everybody assumes that if you go to the Tomb Police (formally, the Death Battalions of the Temple of Durritlamish) and make a gift to their Old Age Pension and Retirement Fund, they'll let you use any of the entrances in the necropolis.  Otherwise, it's pretty widely held that going to a Change Temple, like Sarku or Durritlamish, and paying them will get you in - assuming, of course, that they know you. All of this is on the same order of 'sure knowledge' like in the Middle Ages, where we all knew dragons were real because my wife's second cousin's sister-in-law's uncle's nephew had a friend who got eaten by one. So it's all true.

Physically how big is Jakalla's Underworld? The city has like 45,000 citizens and we know roughly how big the city itself is. Seeing the pictures of it both gives a good indication of scale and a bad one at the same time if that makes any sense. I always assumed most were roughly the size and shape of the city above.

You know, I never sat down and counted the squares on Phil's huge map. It's 17" x 22", at ten squares to the inch, at ten foot to the square; so... 1,700' x  2,200' on the map itself, for about 3,740,000 square feet of underworld to explore. The actual underworld is more spread out then the map is; there are something like eight or nine 'sections' on the big map that he showed directly connected to each other, but which in 'real life' are separated from each other by additional tunnels and passageways - and these are also on somewhat differing levels, as well, so while there are only three map sheets, the Underworld has something like seven levels - grouped into three sets, with most of the levels / half levels on the big sheet.

All told, I guess that the whole thing is a good couple of miles on a side for the actual underworld areas, and that you could assume that the things spreads over a good five mile by five mile area. So, from what I know, your estimate is pretty much right on the money - it's about as big as the city. It may be shifted one way or the other, however; I've never really sat down and tried to match up the known entrances with the surface locations, but I think it's more or less centered on the necropolis area.

Does this help, any?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 04, 2016, 01:05:05 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;901572
Uncle, a generic station is a good idea. It would be good for me to have a reference point and an idea of the types of rooms/features needed in a station to maintain it. As far as the extras, well purple tube-lights, floor control panel(leds), that all sounds exciting. The only thing that comes to mind is COOL!!! So a generic station would be nice. What time period will your station be from? It might be fun to have a Humanspace era station and then one from maybe Engsvanyali or Bednjallan times(though it may be unneccessary). This could become a major project...

As far as Nareshanbo goes, Uncle you really tempt me!!! I have the book. I still need to read through it. If any of this is not too much trouble, I say go for it. I for one will always be happy to see what you are up to. I know you want to us to keep you busy...Now it is just a matter of getting there to play!!! Be well Uncle.

H:0)

Thank you for the input! What I'm trying to do, here, is balance my addictions in modeling with what players would actually like to see in games.

The stations don;t 'age', by the way; they're all the same, and made of 'imperishable' metal. You do get signs, like Bednjallan or Engsvanyali, telling you things. I'll have to make some! :)

Nereshanbo's little underworld would be really easy to make; it's pretty fun, and I've enjoyed running it over the years. Miniatures would be easy, too! :)

We'll be here... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 04, 2016, 01:09:18 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;901584
Well there is this example to work from when making the station.
http://d.gr-assets.com/books/1298785940l/1770864.jpg (http://d.gr-assets.com/books/1298785940l/1770864.jpg)
=

True. Phil wasn't very happy with the artwork, but it was much better then that for "Man of Gold". I had had to supply Don Wohlheim a compete set of all the Tekumel miniatures I was casting at the time, as well as a copy of my "Miniatures for Tekumel"; he circulated both around to various artists - Don Maitz had got a copy, I'm told - and that's why you see what you see.

This is a pretty good idea of what one of the very rare above-ground stations looks like. I saw one in the Tsolei Isles that was just like this, and the one at the Egg of the World looks a lot like it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 04, 2016, 01:11:06 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901585
I followed the link you posted and I randomly chose three authors whose work I like: Howard, Bellairs, and Wellman. Wow, not much of a PC agenda there. This guy has either not read and comprehended what was written, or is so blinded by ideological bias that he is no longer capable of rational thought. His "misogynistic" this, or "racist" that when talking about the Conan stories raised my blood pressure. God almighty, why do people insist on looking at things through a PC 21st Century lens? Howard wrote in the 30's. Societal norms and values were different then, this does NOt make them wrong within that context.
His dismissal of Face in the Frost tells me the humour was way over his head. It is meant to be a sarcastic, cliché, parody of the Gandalf motif in Fantasy literature. Of course the main characters called Prospero and Roger Bacon are not the two from Shakespeare and history, respectively. In the first few sentences Bellairs clearly says this: "...Prospero, and not the one your thinking of!", but for some reason this guy needs to make a point of telling us that Prospero is a Shakespearian construct and Roger Bacon was an Eleventh Century monk. "Crom's hairy nut sack!", to quote the Glorious General. As an aside, the scene in the village and forest is one of the most evocative and scary scenes ever written in Fantasy Literature, IMO.
 I will bet good money that he didn't actually read very many, if any, of Manley Wade Wellman's stories. His stuff is as old school "Weird" as anything Lovecraft, C.A. Smith, or Howard ever did. The author dismisses the stories as being merely  "old fashioned" as if this is somehow bad. I'm afraid to see what they/he wrote about some of my other favourite authors like Burroughs, or Zelazny.

Shemek.

Same here. I was more then a little boggled by the Tor series; it really did put me off my feed for a while, and still rankles a little with the heavy-handed moralizing.

Sigh.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 04, 2016, 01:11:54 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;901591
We have always been at war with Eastasia.

In 1984 George Orwell postulated that war is necessary to destroy excess production and justify totalitarian measures.

There are people who need a war to fight.

If we overcome every evil of society they'll just have to create a new one.

It's really that simple.

Agreed. I'd like to sit this one out, though... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 04, 2016, 01:18:25 PM
Quote from: Kellri;901561
Three hundred and fifty two pages of this shit? Seriously?


OK. And...?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 04, 2016, 02:10:04 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;901575
Yep! Join the party. Otherwise we'll be seeing you on the Ho Chi Minh trail...Take care either way.

H;0)

He's a stupid piece of shit as he has demonstrated repeatedly; just put him on your ignore list like I did ages ago.

And as Chirine would tell you, yes, I WOULD say that to his face.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 04, 2016, 03:03:14 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901629
He's a stupid piece of shit as he has demonstrated repeatedly; just put him on your ignore list like I did ages ago.

And as Chirine would tell you, yes, I WOULD say that to his face.


Ah, I see. As you command Glorious General;). Well if he's not interested in the thread, then he doesn't have to read it does he? I'll never understand why some people have to poke their nose in, make f*****g stupid comments and try and stir the shit. I'm sure you know what they say about opinions.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 04, 2016, 03:12:43 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;901530
Photo, as the thing dries on the workbench...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]107[/ATTACH]


Chirine,

That looks amazing. Until you gave me the dimensions of a tubeway car I really had no idea how big they were. This model really makes a visual impact when you see the minis in the bottom left of the picture.
Are you going for internal lighting, or some type of external lights?
What brand of acrylic filler did you use to prep the surface?
I'm not sure how feasible this is, but would you consider making a tubeway car with a detailed internal passenger compartment?
I can't wait to see this model in a station.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 04, 2016, 03:50:38 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901634
Ah, I see. As you command Glorious General;). Well if he's not interested in the thread, then he doesn't have to read it does he? I'll never understand why some people have to poke their nose in, make f*****g stupid comments and try and stir the shit. I'm sure you know what they say about opinions.

Shemek.

As my wife says, "Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one ant they're all full of shit except your own."

And that imbecile frequently strolls into threads dealing with older games, publicly shits himself, and leaves.

I attribute it to not having anything in the real world to do.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 04, 2016, 03:53:02 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901636
Chirine,

That looks amazing. Until you gave me the dimensions of a tubeway car I really had no idea how big they were. This model really makes a visual impact when you see the minis in the bottom left of the picture.
Are you going for internal lighting, or some type of external lights?
What brand of acrylic filler did you use to prep the surface?
I'm not sure how feasible this is, but would you consider making a tubeway car with a detailed internal passenger compartment?
I can't wait to see this model in a station.

Shemek

Well, I know you can get hollow plastic spheres.  The trick would be to get one about the right size that was sturdy enough to be worked on (something that's only four or five mils thick simply wouldn't stand up to ordinary handling), and also make sure that it is a sort of plastic that takes glue.  Styrene is the easiest to work with and ABS next, and both are readily available in the hobby market.  But there are a shitload of different plastics, some of which styrene or ABS can't be glued to.  Yes, you could use hotmelt glue, but for delicate work it has its problems.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on June 04, 2016, 04:51:27 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901629
He's a stupid piece of shit as he has demonstrated repeatedly; just put him on your ignore list like I did ages ago.

And as Chirine would tell you, yes, I WOULD say that to his face.



Trolls...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on June 04, 2016, 04:58:40 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901634
Ah, I see. As you command Glorious General;). Well if he's not interested in the thread, then he doesn't have to read it does he? I'll never understand why some people have to poke their nose in, make f*****g stupid comments and try and stir the shit. I'm sure you know what they say about opinions.

Shemek.


Ah Good Lord Shemek, I think it has to do with something about looking in the mirror and not liking what one sees...

H:0)

PS The last post in regard to the Eastasian...Unless he throws down the gauntlet.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on June 04, 2016, 05:08:40 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901642
Well, I know you can get hollow plastic spheres.  The trick would be to get one about the right size that was sturdy enough to be worked on (something that's only four or five mils thick simply wouldn't stand up to ordinary handling), ...
Wouldn't a styro-foam ball cut in half work well? You could carve out shapes of seating and consoles.
All the parts that were not accessible could be solid.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 04, 2016, 07:58:15 PM
Quote from: Kellri;901561
Three hundred and fifty two pages of this shit? Seriously?

That's the first shitty post I remember in the thread. That's over 354 pages already.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901585
I followed the link you posted and I randomly chose three authors whose work I like: Howard, Bellairs, and Wellman. Wow, not much of a PC agenda there. This guy has either not read and comprehended what was written, or is so blinded by ideological bias that he is no longer capable of rational thought. His "misogynistic" this, or "racist" that when talking about the Conan stories raised my blood pressure. God almighty, why do people insist on looking at things through a PC 21st Century lens? Howard wrote in the 30's. Societal norms and values were different then, this does NOt make them wrong within that context.
His dismissal of Face in the Frost tells me the humour was way over his head. It is meant to be a sarcastic, cliché, parody of the Gandalf motif in Fantasy literature. Of course the main characters called Prospero and Roger Bacon are not the two from Shakespeare and history, respectively. In the first few sentences Bellairs clearly says this: "...Prospero, and not the one your thinking of!", but for some reason this guy needs to make a point of telling us that Prospero is a Shakespearian construct and Roger Bacon was an Eleventh Century monk. "Crom's hairy nut sack!", to quote the Glorious General. As an aside, the scene in the village and forest is one of the most evocative and scary scenes ever written in Fantasy Literature, IMO.
 I will bet good money that he didn't actually read very many, if any, of Manley Wade Wellman's stories. His stuff is as old school "Weird" as anything Lovecraft, C.A. Smith, or Howard ever did. The author dismisses the stories as being merely  "old fashioned" as if this is somehow bad. I'm afraid to see what they/he wrote about some of my other favourite authors like Burroughs, or Zelazny.

Shemek.

You're lucky. You didn't read the Zelazny part...:D

Quote from: chirine ba kal;901588
Thank you! For me, what's on the workbench is a pretty normal stack of stuff. There's the tubeway car, the three types of Barsoomian flyers (10, total; the little scout flyers are off to the left, and the medium and large ones under the car), and the fifty figures that I managed to salvage from the big lot I got stripped. I like to keep busy, and to make things. :)

Sadly, I have to agree. I've seen a lot of this kind of thing go by in the forty-some years I've been involved with F/SF fandom, but it seems to be a lot worse and a lot more strident these days - the past couple of years or so, it's really been ramping up. Not sure why... :(

Your ideas of "normal stacks" and mine differ, Uncle; we've established that much repeatedly.

And, well, this kind of stuff helps us to actually think about the books ourselves. After all, when the "critics" are full of shit, you simply have to.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901629
He's a stupid piece of shit as he has demonstrated repeatedly; just put him on your ignore list like I did ages ago.

And as Chirine would tell you, yes, I WOULD say that to his face.


Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901641
As my wife says, "Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one ant they're all full of shit except your own."

And that imbecile frequently strolls into threads dealing with older games, publicly shits himself, and leaves.

I attribute it to not having anything in the real world to do.

I think, Glorious General, that you might be paying it a tad too much attention.
If anything, you should send copies of such posts to the temple of Avanthe for the edification of the kids studying there, and for the entertainment of the priestesses.
So it is written, and so it shall be!

Quote from: Hrugga;901652
Trolls...

Are you missing a bonfire in this picture;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on June 04, 2016, 08:50:14 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;901599

Sure; I assume we're talking about Jakalla, here...


Actually, trying to gin up an underworld. Got a new crop of Tekumel fans, all about 12-13, that just realized that there are creepy crawlies right under their feet and they are itching to get down there!

Eight surprises me, though having nothing to compare against, I don't know why.  Is that counting all of those in the necropolis as 1? Are they kind of like the weird manhole covered fire pole in Egg Shen's basement in Big Trouble in Little China? Are there any clanhouse's with basement doors that you should not open?

All told, I guess that the whole thing is a good couple of miles on a side for the actual underworld areas, and that you could assume that the things spreads over a good five mile by five mile area. So, from what I know, your estimate is pretty much right on the money - it's about as big as the city. It may be shifted one way or the other, however; I've never really sat down and tried to match up the known entrances with the surface locations, but I think it's more or less centered on the necropolis area.

I am trying to "size" the underworld I am building properly. I was guessing that the underworld would be a bit smaller than the city above. 5x5 miles is really big!

Does this help, any?
As always you are a fountain of knowledge! And much appreciated!

Love the new models! They are sharp! The young uns I have playing say you should do a stop action movie for your YouTube channel using your minis and models!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 04, 2016, 09:58:07 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901641
As my wife says, "Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one ant they're all full of shit except your own."

And that imbecile frequently strolls into threads dealing with older games, publicly shits himself, and leaves.

I attribute it to not having anything in the real world to do.


That's the one:p
Well I guess everyone needs a hobby. Like I said earlier he should keep the f**k off the thread if he's not interested in Tekumel. "We" don't need him here, unless it's for baiting Ssu, then there might be a use...

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 04, 2016, 10:01:26 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;901655
Ah Good Lord Shemek, I think it has to do with something about looking in the mirror and not liking what one sees...

H:0)

PS The last post in regard to the Eastasian...Unless he throws down the gauntlet.

You might have a point there about not liking what he sees.
Mighty Hrugga of the Epics! Will you defeat him soundly like you did the demon Qu’u? :p
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 04, 2016, 10:06:01 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;901657
Wouldn't a styro-foam ball cut in half work well? You could carve out shapes of seating and consoles.
All the parts that were not accessible could be solid.
=

That sounds interesting, and might work. You certainly could put the LED's in quite easily. Even if you didn't want to to carve out the seats or consoles adding scratch built ones would be easy enough a well.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 04, 2016, 10:23:02 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;901690

1.That's the first shitty post I remember in the thread. That's over 354 pages already.

2.You're lucky. You didn't read the Zelazny part...:D


3. And, well, this kind of stuff helps us to actually think about the books ourselves. After all, when the "critics" are full of shit, you simply have to.



1. Not bad really. Like I said earlier...

2. I don't think I will now. Amber holds a special place for me, and is something that has provided countless hours of enjoyment for me. I have tried to incorporate elements of Amber into nearly every campaign I have run over the years. Sometimes blatant elements, and some times subltle ones. It's kind of the same with Leguin's Earthsea trilogy. I have incorporated a lot of her stuff into my games. I guess this is why I don't read "new" fantasy novels these days. The most recent or modern fantasy I have read is G.R.R. Martin's stuff. He's got some good story ideas, and I do enjoy watching Game of Thrones, but IMO he really is a shit writer. His prose is nothing special, just easy to read quickly.  The only other author I can think of who is as repetitive in vocabulary and imagery is Moorcock from 40 years ago when he was in his "sardonic" phase. In fact, Martin kind of reminds me of Moorcock, although I think that Moorcock was more inspired and sometimes rougher that Martin is, if you know what I mean?  Kind of like Chirine I tend to re-read the old ones I have enjoyed for years. I just recently finished reading Phil's novels, which when coupled with this thread has really inspired me as a DM. The guys are really into the game.

3. I agree. I just wish I could find more stuff that holds my attention.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 04, 2016, 10:30:40 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901642
Well, I know you can get hollow plastic spheres.  The trick would be to get one about the right size that was sturdy enough to be worked on (something that's only four or five mils thick simply wouldn't stand up to ordinary handling), and also make sure that it is a sort of plastic that takes glue.  Styrene is the easiest to work with and ABS next, and both are readily available in the hobby market.  But there are a shitload of different plastics, some of which styrene or ABS can't be glued to.  Yes, you could use hotmelt glue, but for delicate work it has its problems.


I'm not even sure where you would find a sphere the right size. I did a quick search and the only 6" spheres I could find were made of polypro, and this crap is impossible to glue properly. ABS is not easy to blow-mould, as these spheres would have to be out of necessity, and if you could get one it would probably be really expensive. I just picked up a hot melt glue gun a few weeks ago and I'm still trying to get used to it, so that's out as well, for now.:eek:

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on June 04, 2016, 10:41:47 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901715
You might have a point there about not liking what he sees.
Mighty Hrugga of the Epics! Will you defeat him soundly like you did the demon Qu’u? :p


Yes, Lord Shemek. I could soundly trounce him...Though I feel I would be doing my namesake little honor...Not too much of a challenge!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 04, 2016, 11:02:42 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;901726
Yes, Lord Shemek. I could soundly trounce him...Though I feel I would be doing my namesake little honor...Not too much of a challenge!!!

H;0)


:D

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 05, 2016, 12:05:39 AM
From Shemek hiTankolel:

That looks amazing. Until you gave me the dimensions of a tubeway car I really had no idea how big they were. This model really makes a visual impact when you see the minis in the bottom left of the picture.

Thank you! They have to hold a party of player characters in 25 - 28mm, so this is a decent size that isn't too crowded for those long trips. I used my notes from Phil's games, where we spent a lot of time in these things, and also his texts about them.

Are you going for internal lighting, or some type of external lights?

No. This is a very basic 'solid body' model, intended to be as easy to use in games as possible. I usually do not do interiors in models, unless the game scenario requires them; taking the models apart during the game is usually kind of disruptive, so I normally provide separate paper plans to players when they go into a building or something else with an interior. It keep the game moving smartly, and also forces the other players to send somebody in to see what's there - adventures ensue. If I was doing a display model, I would indeed put in all the lights; it's pretty easy to do, these days.

What brand of acrylic filler did you use to prep the surface?

Elmer's Carpenters' Wood Filler, available in any hardware store. I love this stuff; it thins with water, and can be mixed down to be applied with a brush. I use it a lot - Castle Tiketl's adobe walls were done with this stuff, over an extruded polystyrene foam base.

I'm not sure how feasible this is, but would you consider making a tubeway car with a detailed internal passenger compartment?
I can't wait to see this model in a station.


Sure; it's doable, if there was a need for it. This model is a simple open-cell styrene foam sphere from the crafts store - a whopping $3.00, if I recall - and a little work. If I was going to one with an interior - see more replies as this topic is discussed - I'd do it in any number of several ways, depending on the 'job specs' for what was needed. I tend to do models based on the needs of the game campaign, and there has been a need for one of these cars for literally decades - we just never got around to making one, when we were out at Phil's.

I'm looking forward to seeing it in action, too! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 05, 2016, 12:08:02 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901642
Well, I know you can get hollow plastic spheres.  The trick would be to get one about the right size that was sturdy enough to be worked on (something that's only four or five mils thick simply wouldn't stand up to ordinary handling), and also make sure that it is a sort of plastic that takes glue.  Styrene is the easiest to work with and ABS next, and both are readily available in the hobby market.  But there are a shitload of different plastics, some of which styrene or ABS can't be glued to.  Yes, you could use hotmelt glue, but for delicate work it has its problems.


This. Getting something sturdy enough to be handled would be my biggest worry. I'll have more about this in a minute, too. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 05, 2016, 12:20:08 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;901657
Wouldn't a styro-foam ball cut in half work well? You could carve out shapes of seating and consoles.
All the parts that were not accessible could be solid.
=

Styrofoam is really hard to work with, actually.  It's easy to mold in shape, but once molded it's very fragile if you try to cut on it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 05, 2016, 12:28:28 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;901657
Wouldn't a styro-foam ball cut in half work well? You could carve out shapes of seating and consoles.
All the parts that were not accessible could be solid.
=


Lost my first pass at a reply to a 'time-out request'...

I did this for the Pe Choi domes I did for my little Pe Choi village. Open-cell foam spheres like this one - crafts store, $3.00 - cut in half, glued to thin plywood for a base, slathered with filler and painted to look like the chitin that they use for their homes. The car is the same thing. This foam, as well as the expanded foam spheres - the white 'beadboard' stuff - is not very string, and the beadboard is a royal pain to work. If I was going to use foam, I'd use extruded foam - the pink or blue stuff - and rough out a sphere on the bandsaw, then turn it to true on the lathe. Cut in half, then mount it on the XZY table in the milling stand, and mill out the compartments - and room for the lights and stuff, of course. Glue the seats and console to a styrene deck plate, screw it all together, and there you are.

I'd also seriously consider doing a wood sphere, basswood most likely, as it'd be stronger. And there's getting a plastic sphere - two domes, really, from a specialist plastics fabricator.

These days, there's an even better way - see a later reply... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 05, 2016, 12:37:34 AM
From Big Andy:
Actually, trying to gin up an underworld. Got a new crop of Tekumel fans, all about 12-13, that just realized that there are creepy crawlies right under their feet and they are itching to get down there!

Very cool! :)

Eight surprises me, though having nothing to compare against, I don't know why.  Is that counting all of those in the necropolis as 1? Are they kind of like the weird manhole covered fire pole in Egg Shen's basement in Big Trouble in Little China? Are there any clanhouse's with basement doors that you should not open?

Sorry; should have been more clear. There are eight that I know of in the city proper; I didn't count the ones in the necropolis. There's maybe six to nine there, that I know of and have used over the years.

Yes!!! Yes!!! Rick Bjugen introduced Phil to this wonderful movie, and Phil loved it as he thought that Underworld adventures would be like this.
And yes, you do find sealed doorways in basements; it's a byproduct of the Ditlana ritual.

I am trying to "size" the underworld I am building properly. I was guessing that the underworld would be a bit smaller than the city above. 5x5 miles is really big!

Understood, but the big one is Jakalla - the City Half As Old As The World. I think you have a good grasp of the size of your 'usual' Underworld.

As always you are a fountain of knowledge! And much appreciated!

Always happy to help! :)

Love the new models! They are sharp! The young uns I have playing say you should do a stop action movie for your YouTube channel using your minis and models!

Thank you! Never thought of that - I'll see what we can do. Bought the chassis for the aircar today; with tax, $2.17. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 05, 2016, 12:41:45 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901716
That sounds interesting, and might work. You certainly could put the LED's in quite easily. Even if you didn't want to to carve out the seats or consoles adding scratch built ones would be easy enough a well.

Shemek

The cool way to do this:

Contact Howard Fielding, he of The Tekumel Project. Ask him very nicely to contact his and my friend, who is a long-time Tekumel fan who does three-dee printing; he works for a prototyping company, and has been doing some very - and I mean very!!! - cool models for Tekumel. he is one of Howard's suppliers, and maybe they'd be able to do something. (I'd do the design for free, in trade for one of the models!)

The process is amazing; it can do hollow objects, and the resin is quite strong.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 05, 2016, 12:43:10 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901723
I'm not even sure where you would find a sphere the right size. I did a quick search and the only 6" spheres I could find were made of polypro, and this crap is impossible to glue properly. ABS is not easy to blow-mould, as these spheres would have to be out of necessity, and if you could get one it would probably be really expensive. I just picked up a hot melt glue gun a few weeks ago and I'm still trying to get used to it, so that's out as well, for now.:eek:

Shemek

Specialist plastics fabricators. You'll pay for it; this is not cheap.

I like my hot-melt guns, but you do have to be very careful!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 05, 2016, 12:44:49 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901747
Styrofoam is really hard to work with, actually.  It's easy to mold in shape, but once molded it's very fragile if you try to cut on it.

Gods, yes. See later response! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 05, 2016, 12:50:20 AM
I think we're all caught up. Got the second coat of silver on the car; got the wood form for the aircar, inspected and approved new granddaughter Naomi, wished Middle / Third Daughter a Happy Birthday, talked to Fourth and Fifth Daughters in Zurich, took Second Daughter to work,found out that Fifth Daughter will be moving in with us later this year while she goes to classes here in the US. It's been a busy day.

Oh, also got a platoon of Silver Suits prepped for basing and painting; I need to give my Ssu and Ahoggya space marines something to shoot at. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 05, 2016, 01:11:12 AM
Ahoggya space marines?  Hmm... Nadrek, his name was?

"Then poison breathing, frigid blooded Nadrek came to town,
And said that we should have a drink to wet our whistles down,
King's Ransom wasn't Aqua Regia, which he drank with vim,
But all we Earthmen cooled our beers by setting them on him.

All clear and on green, QX, QX..."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 05, 2016, 01:25:43 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901758
Ahoggya space marines?  Hmm... Nadrek, his name was?

"Then poison breathing, frigid blooded Nadrek came to town,
And said that we should have a drink to wet our whistles down,
King's Ransom wasn't Aqua Regia, which he drank with vim,
But all we Earthmen cooled our beers by setting them on him.

All clear and on green, QX, QX..."

:)

Ah, what fun!

I'll have to get some photos of the Ahoggya in their suits; they're made with flight stands in the form of the reaction jets' blast, and look the business! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 05, 2016, 01:33:57 AM
I wanted to comment on all of your very kind posts, earlier today.

I guess that I view this little corner of the Internet as that corner booth in the pub where the regulars congregate to have a drink or three and swap tall stories. ("Tales from the White Hart", anyone?) People come and people go, and sometimes there's somebody who drops by and makes noises and then leaves. That's fine, by me; this is not my thread, I think, but all of yours. I'm here to be asked about what we did, back in the dawn of time, and what I'm doing these days in that same style. If there's anything you can take away from this thread, and use in your games, please feel free - it's why I'm here. :)

And I think I'd like to leave it at that. I've been baited a lot of times, over the years, and I've found that simply being as kind as I can and inviting the person into the discussion seems to work best for me. I will freely admit that I have some very strong opinions, and that I freely express them; I just hope that I can do so and still be helpful and hopefully civil in the process.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 05, 2016, 05:46:24 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901720
1. Not bad really. Like I said earlier...

2. I don't think I will now. Amber holds a special place for me, and is something that has provided countless hours of enjoyment for me. I have tried to incorporate elements of Amber into nearly every campaign I have run over the years. Sometimes blatant elements, and some times subltle ones. It's kind of the same with Leguin's Earthsea trilogy. I have incorporated a lot of her stuff into my games. I guess this is why I don't read "new" fantasy novels these days. The most recent or modern fantasy I have read is G.R.R. Martin's stuff. He's got some good story ideas, and I do enjoy watching Game of Thrones, but IMO he really is a shit writer. His prose is nothing special, just easy to read quickly.  The only other author I can think of who is as repetitive in vocabulary and imagery is Moorcock from 40 years ago when he was in his "sardonic" phase. In fact, Martin kind of reminds me of Moorcock, although I think that Moorcock was more inspired and sometimes rougher that Martin is, if you know what I mean?  Kind of like Chirine I tend to re-read the old ones I have enjoyed for years. I just recently finished reading Phil's novels, which when coupled with this thread has really inspired me as a DM. The guys are really into the game.

3. I agree. I just wish I could find more stuff that holds my attention.

Shemek

Agreed on the first two counts, as for the third, I'd recommend John Brunner and K.J.Parker:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;901757
I think we're all caught up. Got the second coat of silver on the car; got the wood form for the aircar, inspected and approved new granddaughter Naomi, wished Middle / Third Daughter a Happy Birthday, talked to Fourth and Fifth Daughters in Zurich, took Second Daughter to work,found out that Fifth Daughter will be moving in with us later this year while she goes to classes here in the US. It's been a busy day.

Oh, also got a platoon of Silver Suits prepped for basing and painting; I need to give my Ssu and Ahoggya space marines something to shoot at. :)


It seems like a rather busy day, full of family matters. Maybe we should use it for inspiration for "a day of the family life of a Tekumeli scholar";)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 05, 2016, 12:31:30 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;901753
The cool way to do this:

Contact Howard Fielding, he of The Tekumel Project. Ask him very nicely to contact his and my friend, who is a long-time Tekumel fan who does three-dee printing; he works for a prototyping company, and has been doing some very - and I mean very!!! - cool models for Tekumel. he is one of Howard's suppliers, and maybe they'd be able to do something. (I'd do the design for free, in trade for one of the models!)

The process is amazing; it can do hollow objects, and the resin is quite strong.

That sounds very interesting... He wouldn't even have to completely hollow it out, only the passenger/crew compartment. What diameter sphere would be required for this? I believe you used a 6" one for your model.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 05, 2016, 12:35:29 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;901766
I wanted to comment on all of your very kind posts, earlier today.

I guess that I view this little corner of the Internet as that corner booth in the pub where the regulars congregate to have a drink or three and swap tall stories. ("Tales from the White Hart", anyone?) People come and people go, and sometimes there's somebody who drops by and makes noises and then leaves. That's fine, by me; this is not my thread, I think, but all of yours. I'm here to be asked about what we did, back in the dawn of time, and what I'm doing these days in that same style. If there's anything you can take away from this thread, and use in your games, please feel free - it's why I'm here. :)

And I think I'd like to leave it at that. I've been baited a lot of times, over the years, and I've found that simply being as kind as I can and inviting the person into the discussion seems to work best for me. I will freely admit that I have some very strong opinions, and that I freely express them; I just hope that I can do so and still be helpful and hopefully civil in the process.

I have never understood the motivation behind trying to stir something up for no reason. If you don't find the topic interesting then just, pardon my French, fuck off! People like this...

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 05, 2016, 12:37:59 PM
I have never heard of John Brunner and K.J.Parker. I'll have to look for them next time I go to my local used bookstore. Thank you for the recommendations.:)

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 05, 2016, 01:16:58 PM
With the moronic Tor articles and what not, I got to thinking. What are some of the favourite books or series of the regulars on this thread?
I originally was going to make this post  "If you could only take 5 F/SF series or books, which authors' works would you choose?", but this became too limiting for me.

I know for me, and in no particular order, they are:

U.K. Leguin, The Earthsea trilogy.   (Didn't really care for the later books added to the original three).
R.E. Howard: The Complete Chronicles of Conan.
M.A.R. Barker: All five books. (No surprise here I guess. Even though Phil may have not been "the best" writer out there I like Tekumel!)
J. Bellairs: The Face in the Frost.
R. Zelazny: The Chronicles of Amber.
J. Crowley: The Deep,
C.A. Smith: Eidolon and Other Tales,
 H.P.Lovecraft (any of the Cthulhu stories, although my favourites are: The Dunwich Horror, At the Mountains of Madness, and The Whisperer in Darkness),
J.R.R. Tolkien: The Silmarillion (Not too fussy on LOTR these days).
M. W. Wellman: any compilation of his Silver John stories.
H. Harrison: either the Stainless Steel Rat, or The Stainless Steel Rat Gets Drafted.

The funny thing is I've incorporated elements from all of  these books into all of my campaigns over the years. Cthulhu works just fine on Tekumel, especially if you make him (it?) one of the Pariah Gods.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on June 05, 2016, 02:07:04 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901903
With the moronic Tor articles and what not, I got to thinking. What are some of the favourite books or series of the regulars on this thread?
I originally was going to make this post  "If you could only take 5 F/SF series or books, which authors' works would you choose?", but this became too limiting for me.

I know for me, and in no particular order, they are:

U.K. Leguin, The Earthsea trilogy.   (Didn't really care for the later books added to the original three).
R.E. Howard: The Complete Chronicles of Conan.
M.A.R. Barker: All five books. (No surprise here I guess. Even though Phil may have not been "the best" writer out there I like Tekumel!)
J. Bellairs: The Face in the Frost.
R. Zelazny: The Chronicles of Amber.
J. Crowley: The Deep,
C.A. Smith: Eidolon and Other Tales,
 H.P.Lovecraft (any of the Cthulhu stories, although my favourites are: The Dunwich Horror, At the Mountains of Madness, and The Whisperer in Darkness),
J.R.R. Tolkien: The Silmarillion (Not too fussy on LOTR these days).
M. W. Wellman: any compilation of his Silver John stories.
H. Harrison: either the Stainless Steel Rat, or The Stainless Steel Rat Gets Drafted.

The funny thing is I've incorporated elements from all of  these books into all of my campaigns over the years. Cthulhu works just fine on Tekumel, especially if you make him (it?) one of the Pariah Gods.

Shemek.


I like your list. For me:

Jack Vance - Dying Earth, Demon Princes...I have others that need reading.
EE Doc Smith - I have only read Galactic Patrol and Grey Lensman so far.
The big three, CAS, REH, HPL; I have multiple books and stories.
Fritz Lieber; Fafrd and Mouser, and others.
Manley Wade Wellman; Silver John, so good. I have some others too.
ERB, Mars, so many to read, Venus, Tarzan. More to get.
Moorcock; Elric, Corum, Hawkmoon. Dragon in the sword(Erekose)?. And others.
Heinlen; Starship Troopers
Phillip Jose Farmer; Hadon of Opar, Tier books, others I have that need reading.
Karl Edward Wagner; Kane
Tolkien; Hobbit(for a quick adventure fix), LotR, Silmarillian

I have so many others that need reading. I'm sure, I will get to them soon. I do also find myself going back to the books I liked and rereading as well.

I left off MAR Barker. He goes without saying. The Book of Ebon Bindings has some really great stories(the pitfalls of demon summoning)...

H:0)

PS Those are just the Sci-Fi/Fantasy/Horror/Pulp stuff...Wolfram Von Eshenbach, Mallory, Troyes, Homer...Off to Battle(work)!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 05, 2016, 05:32:19 PM
I'm going to add Lois Mcmaster Bujold's fantasy.  There's not a lot of it, but it's excellent.  I cannot recommend The Curse of Chalion highly enough; it truly is a Chanson de Geste, and I put it up there with Three Hearts and Three Lions.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 05, 2016, 07:31:37 PM
Wonderful suggestions from everyone!!! You've covered all my favorites as well - in the fiction field, but that's going to be another conversation - and I'm delighted to see so many great settings named.

May I ask what will probably seem to be a really dumb and naive question? In a lot of the self-described OSR forums and blogs, there seems - to my eye, anyway - a lot more emphasis on game mechanics and what I think it called 'crunch' then there seems to be on world-settings and what I think is referred to as 'fluff'. Is this my misperception, or the result of the way I'm sampling the data?

And an observation, if I may. When I read the Tor series, I got the impression that the authors were working from the assumption that potential readers of any of these books were not able to make up their own minds about the books - and their authors - on their own, and needed to have an 'interpreter' to make sure that readers were properly informed. Color me confused; I had always assumed in my reading and gaming that the people I was talking to had the intelligence and wit to look at the material and make up their own minds. I still assume this, which may be an obsolete way to look at the world...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 05, 2016, 08:31:56 PM
Well, firstly, I've lost count of the number of times I've said that Dave and Gary's fundamental mistake was assuming that the players were smart enough to shit unassisted.  Then again, my disdain for my fellow man is my besetting sin.  I'm getting better but I still have SO very far to go.

Secondly, the 13 year old kids TSR started marketing to in the late 70s DID need a lot explained to them, and that has carried on in rules ever since.

Thirdly, I think an unforseen side effect in the increase of secondary education is that people overanalyze stuff, and expect everything to be subjected to academic style analysis.

Fourth and lastly, and perhaps most important, after letting the parts of the TOR series that I read percolate a while, my chief impression of them is "We have a deadline and need to write something."  Honestly, I see a LOT of that all OVER the web.

Of course, that's an old problem... Robert E. Howard, in his letters to friends, used to complain about how in order to pay the rent he would take his own stories, rework them a bit, and resell them, and that people just wanted more of the same, not anything new or different.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 05, 2016, 08:49:03 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901948
I'm going to add Lois Mcmaster Bujold's fantasy.  There's not a lot of it, but it's excellent.  I cannot recommend The Curse of Chalion highly enough; it truly is a Chanson de Geste, and I put it up there with Three Hearts and Three Lions.
Its funny, I love her space stories and I loved The Spirit Ring, but Chalion did not appeal to me at all.

I'd add Glen Cook's serious fantasy e.g. the Dread Empire and Black Company series. His stand alone novels The Swordbearer (1982) and The Tower of Fear (1989) are really good. I think the hero and the blade in The Swordbearer out Elric's and out Stormbringer's Moorcock. And I like Moorcock's Elric. His new series (Instrumentalities of the Night) is a bit harder going (no map doesn't help). But it has a late Renaissance European feel that I find especially entertaining since fantasy with gunpowder is rare and rarely done well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 05, 2016, 08:49:53 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;901965

May I ask what will probably seem to be a really dumb and naive question? In a lot of the self-described OSP forums and blogs, there seems - to my eye, anyway - a lot more emphasis on game mechanics and what I think it called 'crunch' then there seems to be on world-settings and what I think is referred to as 'fluff'. Is this my misperception, or the result of the way I'm sampling the data?

And an observation, if I may. When I read the Tor series, I got the impression that the authors were working from the assumption that potential readers of any of these books were not able to make up their own minds about the books - and their authors - on their own, and needed to have an 'interpreter' to make sure that readers were properly informed. Color me confused; I had always assumed in my reading and gaming that the people I was talking to had the intelligence and wit to look at the material and make up their own minds. I still assume this, which may be an obsolete way to look at the world...


I've got a "dumb" question as well: what's OSP?
Seeing as this is the only forum I'm on I can't say that I've noticed this trend, but I sincerely hope that this is not the case. For what it's worth the mechanics have always come second for me, but a couple of my guys have, in the past, been strong mechanics advocates. I largely use "official rules" to appease them, but to be honest 99% is resolved behind my screens on a d20 or d100 roll vs an assigned difficulty rating. I just go through the motions as far as rulesets are concerned to make it look like I'm using a rule book.

I think this might be endemic of the current generations approach to life in general. I hate sounding like the old man, but I'm used to seeing this at work everyday with recent grads and co-op students. They really need to be spoon fed, and getting them to "think creatively" is like pulling teeth sometimes. I know I'm generalising, but your observation seems to support this view. Now in all fairness the youngest member of my group is 44 so I don't know if younger gamers as a whole are like this. I really hope not.:( I don't think your perspective or world view is obsolete in the slightest. I wish more people had this mind set.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 05, 2016, 08:56:34 PM
Quote from: Bren;901976
Its funny, I love her space stories and I loved The Spirit Ring, but Chalion did not appeal to me at all.

I'd add Glen Cook's serious fantasy e.g. the Dread Empire and Black Company series. His stand alone novels The Swordbearer (1982) and The Tower of Fear (1989) are really good. I think the hero and the blade in The Swordbearer out Elric's and out Stormbringer's Moorcock. And I like Moorcock's Elric. His new series (Instrumentalities of the Night) is a bit harder going (no map doesn't help). But it has a late Renaissance European feel that I find especially entertaining since fantasy with gunpowder is rare and rarely done well.

I forget about Cook's Dread Empire and Black Company. Haven't read those in ages. I did like Moorcock, especially his Hawkmoon/Runestaff stories. Unfortunately I "overdosed" on him a few years back and just can't bring myself to read his stuff again. I didn't know he had a new series out.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 05, 2016, 08:58:32 PM
THE SECOND COMING

    Turning and turning in the widening gyre
    The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

    Surely some revelation is at hand;
    Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
    The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
    When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
    Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
    A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
    A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
    Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
    Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

    The darkness drops again but now I know
    That twenty centuries of stony sleep
    Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
    And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
    Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

    William Butler Yeats (1865-1939)

The feeling that "Things fall apart" or that "the centre cannot hold" is not by any means new or unusual. Written records of the old despairing over the young go back at least to the ancient Greeks. And if we don't have Babylonian and Egyptian examples, it's only because we haven't found the right clay tablet or papyrus.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 05, 2016, 08:59:57 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901973
Well, firstly, I've lost count of the number of times I've said that Dave and Gary's fundamental mistake was assuming that the players were smart enough to shit unassisted.  Then again, my disdain for my fellow man is my besetting sin.  I'm getting better but I still have SO very far to go.

Secondly, the 13 year old kids TSR started marketing to in the late 70s DID need a lot explained to them, and that has carried on in rules ever since.

Thirdly, I think an unforseen side effect in the increase of secondary education is that people overanalyze stuff, and expect everything to be subjected to academic style analysis.

Fourth and lastly, and perhaps most important, after letting the parts of the TOR series that I read percolate a while, my chief impression of them is "We have a deadline and need to write something."  Honestly, I see a LOT of that all OVER the web.

Of course, that's an old problem... Robert E. Howard, in his letters to friends, used to complain about how in order to pay the rent he would take his own stories, rework them a bit, and resell them, and that people just wanted more of the same, not anything new or different.

You've got some good points there, but I don't know... My experience at work has made me far more pessimistic.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 05, 2016, 09:00:09 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901978
I didn't know he had a new series out.
The new series (https://www.goodreads.com/series/53831-instrumentalities-of-the-night) is by Glen Cook.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 05, 2016, 09:06:15 PM
If you like flawed, sometimes seriously flawed, protagonists, Joe Abercrombie is good. I discovered The Blade Itself (2006), Before They Are Hanged (2007), and Last Argument of Kings (2008) at the Lower Early Public Library in England. Best Served Cold, set in the same world, may be my favorite. My wife really enjoyed it BSC as well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 05, 2016, 09:11:46 PM
Quote from: Bren;901979
THE SECOND COMING

    Turning and turning in the widening gyre
    The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

    Surely some revelation is at hand;
    Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
    The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
    When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
    Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
    A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
    A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
    Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
    Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

    The darkness drops again but now I know
    That twenty centuries of stony sleep
    Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
    And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
    Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

    William Butler Yeats (1865-1939)

The feeling that "Things fall apart" or that "the centre cannot hold" is not by any means new or unusual. Written records of the old despairing over the young go back at least to the ancient Greeks. And if we don't have Babylonian and Egyptian examples, it's only because we haven't found the right clay tablet or papyrus.


Beautiful. I like Yeats. I used to read him at university. I should go back and revisit him.
BTW, the ancient Egyptians also complained about this. I remember as an undergrad reading an account from an 18th Dynasty scribe bemoaning the young. I was floored about what his complaints were. It could have been written today. The young are rude, they drink too much beer, they are not dignified in dress, they stay out too late and don't concentrate at work. :D I wish I could remember which book it was in or what the scribe's name was!

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 05, 2016, 09:14:04 PM
Quote from: Bren;901981
The new series (https://www.goodreads.com/series/53831-instrumentalities-of-the-night) is by Glen Cook.

I'll have to check these out on my next trip to the used book store. Thanks for the tips.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 05, 2016, 11:28:51 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901894
That sounds very interesting... He wouldn't even have to completely hollow it out, only the passenger/crew compartment. What diameter sphere would be required for this? I believe you used a 6" one for your model.

Shemek.

Sorry I missed this the first time around! Wouldn't need a sphere; it'd be part of the design, and the machine would make it - in two half-domes, but everything would be 3-D printed. It's amazing to see the models - the way the machine works is liquid resin goes into a tank, and then three lasers on the XYZ axis converge where the programming indicates; where the lasers converge, and only where they do, the resin cures. The liquid is drained away, and there you are. I've gotten several hollow buildings, done as shells, and the process will allow for things like locking pins and moving parts. You'd probably get a kit of two 'domes' and a deck with details that would lock together as a model and which could come apart for play.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 05, 2016, 11:30:16 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;901822

It seems like a rather busy day, full of family matters. Maybe we should use it for inspiration for "a day of the family life of a Tekumeli scholar";)?


Oh! Right! Should I do something like this - my 'daily diary', or something similar?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 05, 2016, 11:32:41 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;901973
Well, firstly, I've lost count of the number of times I've said that Dave and Gary's fundamental mistake was assuming that the players were smart enough to shit unassisted.  Then again, my disdain for my fellow man is my besetting sin.  I'm getting better but I still have SO very far to go.

Secondly, the 13 year old kids TSR started marketing to in the late 70s DID need a lot explained to them, and that has carried on in rules ever since.

Thirdly, I think an unforseen side effect in the increase of secondary education is that people overanalyze stuff, and expect everything to be subjected to academic style analysis.

Fourth and lastly, and perhaps most important, after letting the parts of the TOR series that I read percolate a while, my chief impression of them is "We have a deadline and need to write something."  Honestly, I see a LOT of that all OVER the web.

Of course, that's an old problem... Robert E. Howard, in his letters to friends, used to complain about how in order to pay the rent he would take his own stories, rework them a bit, and resell them, and that people just wanted more of the same, not anything new or different.


Um, okay, understood. It just seems to me that we used to do things rather differently; could be just that we were different as a game group...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 05, 2016, 11:59:48 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901977
I've got a "dumb" question as well: what's OSP?
Seeing as this is the only forum I'm on I can't say that I've noticed this trend, but I sincerely hope that this is not the case. For what it's worth the mechanics have always come second for me, but a couple of my guys have, in the past, been strong mechanics advocates. I largely use "official rules" to appease them, but to be honest 99% is resolved behind my screens on a d20 or d100 roll vs an assigned difficulty rating. I just go through the motions as far as rulesets are concerned to make it look like I'm using a rule book.

I think this might be endemic of the current generations approach to life in general. I hate sounding like the old man, but I'm used to seeing this at work everyday with recent grads and co-op students. They really need to be spoon fed, and getting them to "think creatively" is like pulling teeth sometimes. I know I'm generalising, but your observation seems to support this view. Now in all fairness the youngest member of my group is 44 so I don't know if younger gamers as a whole are like this. I really hope not.:( I don't think your perspective or world view is obsolete in the slightest. I wish more people had this mind set.

Shemek


My fault or being in a hurry and not proofreading. It's 'OSR', as in 'old school rules' or 'old school renaissance'; I've heard it both ways. I'm not trying to start a fight or anything - what I'm trying to do is get a feel for what modern gaming is like, and how people play. I've gotten the impression from quite a few people that more rules are the best way to simulate what is assumed / presumed to have been what game play in RPGs was like back in the beginning of the hobby, and I'm trying to get more of a grip on this. It's like the quote we often make hereabouts: 'anything not explicitly allowed by the rule is forbidden' vs. 'anything not explicitly forbidden by the rules is permitted'.

(It's like the 'Gygax didn't use miniatures / Arneson did use miniatures' thing; equally valid play styles, as far as I'm concerned, so what's the issue with my using miniatures and models? I've had some very negative reactions to them, over the years, and I think it's mostly a reaction to their handling in D&D 4th Edition.)

No idea if this is a 'generational thing' or not; I've never come across this in my younger gamers, but then that sample might be skewed because none of them were what could be described as serious or experienced gamers. I've found that when people like them try what I do in my games, they really enjoy then and go on to other games and rules. Like the EPT game at Gary Con, last year. I thought that it went really well, and people seemed to enjoy themselves.

Think of this as a 'market research' question, if you will.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 06, 2016, 12:01:50 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901985
Beautiful. I like Yeats. I used to read him at university. I should go back and revisit him.
BTW, the ancient Egyptians also complained about this. I remember as an undergrad reading an account from an 18th Dynasty scribe bemoaning the young. I was floored about what his complaints were. It could have been written today. The young are rude, they drink too much beer, they are not dignified in dress, they stay out too late and don't concentrate at work. :D I wish I could remember which book it was in or what the scribe's name was!

Shemek.

I have a copy of this papyrus! Somethings never change, I guess... :)

I'll look it up for you. Watching Cleo at the moment. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 06, 2016, 01:18:38 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;901997
Um, okay, understood. It just seems to me that we used to do things rather differently; could be just that we were different as a game group...

No, I think there have been cultural shifts that go beyond gaming and some of these trends in gaming reflect those cultural shifts.

Like Star Wars, for instance (the first original one.)  5 years after the film first came out, VCRs became fairly cheap and readily available... and a subset of fans proceeded to subject the film, a ten million dollar cheapie, to a bloody frame by frame analysis.  It can't stand up to that.  NO film can stand up to years of detailed frame by frame analysis, there are technical and continuity flaws in every film.  But whereas in our day we'd chuckle quietly about the red R2 unit being seen by the sandcrawler between shots of it being over by Luke, nowadays you see web articles with titiles like "15 Unforgiveably Huge Errors in the Star Wars movies!"  Yeah, it's real, and most of them were "In this shot, if you freeze it and blow this tiny corner up to fill your entire screen, you see a jagged edge on the matte for 3 frames."

Nothing can stand up to year after year of that sort of obsessive examination.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 06, 2016, 01:44:31 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;902003
No, I think there have been cultural shifts that go beyond gaming and some of these trends in gaming reflect those cultural shifts.

Like Star Wars, for instance (the first original one.)  5 years after the film first came out, VCRs became fairly cheap and readily available... and a subset of fans proceeded to subject the film, a ten million dollar cheapie, to a bloody frame by frame analysis.  It can't stand up to that.  NO film can stand up to years of detailed frame by frame analysis, there are technical and continuity flaws in every film.  But whereas in our day we'd chuckle quietly about the red R2 unit being seen by the sandcrawler between shots of it being over by Luke, nowadays you see web articles with titiles like "15 Unforgiveably Huge Errors in the Star Wars movies!"  Yeah, it's real, and most of them were "In this shot, if you freeze it and blow this tiny corner up to fill your entire screen, you see a jagged edge on the matte for 3 frames."

Nothing can stand up to year after year of that sort of obsessive examination.

Ah. I think I understand this; I was taken out to see Episode I, back when it came out, and people were doing it in the theater during the movie, much to my amazement. Not frame by frame, but the detailed analysis part. And what I thought was funny was that they were missing all of the jokes that Lucas had put in - went right by these people. I just sat there and wallowed in the fun, and had a big bucket of popcorn. It was a very good night, and I enjoyed myself. Like we did at the Bell Museum, the night we first watched Alex save Great Lord Novgorod from the evil Teutonic Knights.

(At this point, it's usual for everyone in the room watching the movie to stand up, salute, and toast Great Lord Novgorod.)

I think this has been around a bit, too; remember when Phil used to get letters and phone calls with stuff like this? I have to admit being baffled by it; we just used to accept Blackmoor or Grayhawk or Tekumel for what it was, started playing, and generally got on with the adventure. I've seen discussions go by on the Tekumel Yahoo group where they'd spend days having debates over the productivity of farming areas, because they think Phil's estimates of population density didn't fit the proper historical models.

I dunno. Back to the workbench, I think...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 06, 2016, 09:08:05 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;901999
I have a copy of this papyrus! Somethings never change, I guess... :)

I'll look it up for you. Watching Cleo at the moment. :)
And let's not forget that Chinese philosophers were complaining about the old days being better at least since Kun Tzu, better known as Confucius...:)

(Also, Uncle, sorry - it was me who gave the "thumb down" on this post of yours. I was trying to hit the "thumb up", see - but I was on the road, and my phone shook in the wrong moment:)).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;901996
Oh! Right! Should I do something like this - my 'daily diary', or something similar?
Yes, definitely - if you have the time, that is.
I know it would be of help to me, at least. When players go to look for someone I didn't expect, I know the hour of the day, but what is he doing right now;)?
I can improvise, but a diary like this is a better base for improvisation.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;901977
Seeing as this is the only forum I'm on I can't say that I've noticed this trend, but I sincerely hope that this is not the case. For what it's worth the mechanics have always come second for me, but a couple of my guys have, in the past, been strong mechanics advocates. I largely use "official rules" to appease them, but to be honest 99% is resolved behind my screens on a d20 or d100 roll vs an assigned difficulty rating. I just go through the motions as far as rulesets are concerned to make it look like I'm using a rule book.

I think this might be endemic of the current generations approach to life in general. I hate sounding like the old man, but I'm used to seeing this at work everyday with recent grads and co-op students. They really need to be spoon fed, and getting them to "think creatively" is like pulling teeth sometimes. I know I'm generalising, but your observation seems to support this view. Now in all fairness the youngest member of my group is 44 so I don't know if younger gamers as a whole are like this. I really hope not.:( I don't think your perspective or world view is obsolete in the slightest. I wish more people had this mind set.

Shemek
Let me weigh for those of us who like to use the "right mechanics".
See, it's about the setting and the feel you want for the game. There's nothing wrong with using a "d100 roll higher" mechanic. I'm still enjoying the campaign we're playing which mostly uses the "roll d110*, add modifiers" with a list of attributes that actually changes* according to what the GM feels is appropriate for the character.
But sometimes, the right mechanics gives ideas to the players - ideas they might not get otherwise.
Let me give you the example with the best OSR game I know, DCC (or at least it's the one with the best representation of the Warrior class). In it, Warriors (and only Warriors) don't have a static number bonus to hit. They roll d20 and another die, the die changing with level (it starts at d3 at first level, but the higher the roll, the better the effect). You add them together, add attribute bonus as is standard for most D&D editions.
However, when the number on the "bonus die" is 3+ and you succeed at the attack, you get to make a Mighty Deed in addition to damage. Disarm, trip, return to better guard to ward off the counter, whatever. I've used it to inflict unbearable pain on a regenerating giant, allowing me to run from it (fire didn't stop the regeneration, so it wasn't exactly a troll, and killing it was a long and bloody process).
Thing is...that's me. A lot of other players seem stumped what warriors do apart from hitting people, and frequently forget about this kind of stuff. So a hint "you can think of something fun now" seems like a good idea for most people.
In the same game, you have mechanics that tempt wizards to sacrifice their blood and to make pacts with spirit patrons...:D
In short, it's about the setting for me as well. But I find that good mechanics help in emulating the setting, and bad mechanics hinder this.
(For example of "bad mechanics hindering immersion" see the "setting" where no Fighter, no matter how athletic, can climb a wall...because obviously the Climb Sheer Walls skill is Thief-only skill, and the GM just doesn't know that it only applies to sheer walls with no handholds.
Those same 18 Dexterity fighters can't sneak or hide, either, because Hide in Shadows and Move Silently aren't on their class list...I remember Gronan being exasperated at the idea, too.
But the game logic in interpreting the rules is sound: if only one class has a skill, obviously other classes can't do this! Those GMs have merely misunderstood what the skill means).

*No, that's not a mistake. Roll d100, but replace the digits die with a d20, and you have it.
*Only acrobats and martial artists have Agility. Only priests have "(Element) Control". And so on, and so forth.

So...there's two "levels" of mechanics. "Mechanics as reflection of what happens", and "mechanics as guidelines". The more you know about what happens OOC, the less you need mechanics to give you IC guidance, and vice versa. The "vice versa" clause is why wizardry rules are usually longer than rules for fighting, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 06, 2016, 01:17:39 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;902006
Ah. I think I understand this; I was taken out to see Episode I, back when it came out, and people were doing it in the theater during the movie, much to my amazement. Not frame by frame, but the detailed analysis part. And what I thought was funny was that they were missing all of the jokes that Lucas had put in - went right by these people. I just sat there and wallowed in the fun, and had a big bucket of popcorn. It was a very good night, and I enjoyed myself.

Yes!  YES!!!  Great Zot, Yes!  Now, for the rest of you, Chirine knows that since 1977, the thing I wanted to see more than anything else in a Star Wars movie is what a mature, fully trained Jedi Knight was like.  And in the first 15 minutes of Phantom Menace I got all I wanted, as the renowned Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn proceeded to kick butt and take names through a Trade Federation battle cruiser.  The movie could have ended when Obi-Wan Kenobi said "You were right about one thing, Master -- the negotiations were short!"

It's okay to not like a movie, but then just say "I didn't like it."


Quote from: chirine ba kal;902006
Like we did at the Bell Museum, the night we first watched Alex save Great Lord Novgorod from the evil Teutonic Knights.

(At this point, it's usual for everyone in the room watching the movie to stand up, salute, and toast Great Lord Novgorod.)

David T. gave me a copy of Alexander Nevsky for my last birthday.  Subtitles in English and Korean.:D

Quote from: chirine ba kal;902006
I think this has been around a bit, too; remember when Phil used to get letters and phone calls with stuff like this? I have to admit being baffled by it; we just used to accept Blackmoor or Grayhawk or Tekumel for what it was, started playing, and generally got on with the adventure. I've seen discussions go by on the Tekumel Yahoo group where they'd spend days having debates over the productivity of farming areas, because they think Phil's estimates of population density didn't fit the proper historical models.

I dunno. Back to the workbench, I think...

I honestly think it may be a case of "too much education and not enough place to use it."  People are overeducated in terms of "how much education does their job need."  So much like a person with excess physical energy may go out "looking for trouble" while the person working 14 hour shifts as a pipefitter just wants a big meal and a soft bed, somebody with "excess education" has more intellectual energy than they know what to do with.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 06, 2016, 01:23:12 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;902068
Let me give you the example with the best OSR game I know, DCC (or at least it's the one with the best representation of the Warrior class). In it, Warriors (and only Warriors) don't have a static number bonus to hit. They roll d20 and another die, the die changing with level (it starts at d3 at first level, but the higher the roll, the better the effect). You add them together, add attribute bonus as is standard for most D&D editions.
However, when the number on the "bonus die" is 3+ and you succeed at the attack, you get to make a Mighty Deed in addition to damage. Disarm, trip, return to better guard to ward off the counter, whatever. I've used it to inflict unbearable pain on a regenerating giant, allowing me to run from it (fire didn't stop the regeneration, so it wasn't exactly a troll, and killing it was a long and bloody process).
Thing is...that's me. A lot of other players seem stumped what warriors do apart from hitting people, and frequently forget about this kind of stuff. So a hint "you can think of something fun now" seems like a good idea for most people.

Whereas to me, "tactics" means something different.  I'm not interested in "mighty deeds" or "dazzling swordplay" (mileage, vary, etc).  In my mind the world is based still on the middle ages where every freeman was part of the levy and basic formation fighting was as important as basic sword training.  I want a game where I'm using fighters and clerics to hold the line, thieves or light armored fighters as flanking and exploit troops, magic users as my missile contingents, etc.

Now, the OTHER payoff for me is how quick an old style D&D combat goes.  I'm currently playing in a Pathfinder game, and if 5 PCs complete more than one combat in a night we're doing good; combat takes for fucking ever.  In my OD&D game we can easily have six or seven combats in a single session, plus all the attendant exploration.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 06, 2016, 02:13:09 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;902068
And let's not forget that Chinese philosophers were complaining about the old days being better at least since Kun Tzu, better known as Confucius...:)

(Also, Uncle, sorry - it was me who gave the "thumb down" on this post of yours. I was trying to hit the "thumb up", see - but I was on the road, and my phone shook in the wrong moment:)).


Yes, definitely - if you have the time, that is.
I know it would be of help to me, at least. When players go to look for someone I didn't expect, I know the hour of the day, but what is he doing right now;)?
I can improvise, but a diary like this is a better base for improvisation.


Let me weigh for those of us who like to use the "right mechanics".
See, it's about the setting and the feel you want for the game. There's nothing wrong with using a "d100 roll higher" mechanic. I'm still enjoying the campaign we're playing which mostly uses the "roll d110*, add modifiers" with a list of attributes that actually changes* according to what the GM feels is appropriate for the character.
But sometimes, the right mechanics gives ideas to the players - ideas they might not get otherwise.
Let me give you the example with the best OSR game I know, DCC (or at least it's the one with the best representation of the Warrior class). In it, Warriors (and only Warriors) don't have a static number bonus to hit. They roll d20 and another die, the die changing with level (it starts at d3 at first level, but the higher the roll, the better the effect). You add them together, add attribute bonus as is standard for most D&D editions.
However, when the number on the "bonus die" is 3+ and you succeed at the attack, you get to make a Mighty Deed in addition to damage. Disarm, trip, return to better guard to ward off the counter, whatever. I've used it to inflict unbearable pain on a regenerating giant, allowing me to run from it (fire didn't stop the regeneration, so it wasn't exactly a troll, and killing it was a long and bloody process).
Thing is...that's me. A lot of other players seem stumped what warriors do apart from hitting people, and frequently forget about this kind of stuff. So a hint "you can think of something fun now" seems like a good idea for most people.
In the same game, you have mechanics that tempt wizards to sacrifice their blood and to make pacts with spirit patrons...:D
In short, it's about the setting for me as well. But I find that good mechanics help in emulating the setting, and bad mechanics hinder this.
(For example of "bad mechanics hindering immersion" see the "setting" where no Fighter, no matter how athletic, can climb a wall...because obviously the Climb Sheer Walls skill is Thief-only skill, and the GM just doesn't know that it only applies to sheer walls with no handholds.
Those same 18 Dexterity fighters can't sneak or hide, either, because Hide in Shadows and Move Silently aren't on their class list...I remember Gronan being exasperated at the idea, too.
But the game logic in interpreting the rules is sound: if only one class has a skill, obviously other classes can't do this! Those GMs have merely misunderstood what the skill means).

*No, that's not a mistake. Roll d100, but replace the digits die with a d20, and you have it.
*Only acrobats and martial artists have Agility. Only priests have "(Element) Control". And so on, and so forth.

So...there's two "levels" of mechanics. "Mechanics as reflection of what happens", and "mechanics as guidelines". The more you know about what happens OOC, the less you need mechanics to give you IC guidance, and vice versa. The "vice versa" clause is why wizardry rules are usually longer than rules for fighting, too.

No problem.

I'll get the 'diary of a sorcerer' written up and posted here. :)

Loved your post. This is really good, and is what I'd call 'mechanics to help run the game'; I like this, and it's really a good - in my opinion - design philosophy. (I used it in my own "Qadardalikoi".) What I've been startled by is the philosophy of 'the game is there to help run the mechanics' that I've been seeing when looking over peoples' shoulders at the FLGS and events. I mean, 'Tractics' is very mechanics heavy for example, but we managed to run games pretty smartly.

Fascinating, on several levels.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 06, 2016, 02:15:43 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;902118
Yes!  YES!!!  Great Zot, Yes!  Now, for the rest of you, Chirine knows that since 1977, the thing I wanted to see more than anything else in a Star Wars movie is what a mature, fully trained Jedi Knight was like.  And in the first 15 minutes of Phantom Menace I got all I wanted, as the renowned Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn proceeded to kick butt and take names through a Trade Federation battle cruiser.  The movie could have ended when Obi-Wan Kenobi said "You were right about one thing, Master -- the negotiations were short!"

It's okay to not like a movie, but then just say "I didn't like it."

David T. gave me a copy of Alexander Nevsky for my last birthday.  Subtitles in English and Korean.:D

I honestly think it may be a case of "too much education and not enough place to use it."  People are overeducated in terms of "how much education does their job need."  So much like a person with excess physical energy may go out "looking for trouble" while the person working 14 hour shifts as a pipefitter just wants a big meal and a soft bed, somebody with "excess education" has more intellectual energy than they know what to do with.

Agreed. I just like the fun, not the 'over-thinking' and 'detailed analysis' that I keep seeing.

They've asked me to do my 'play by play' translation of the dialog.

I think you may have hit on something, here. Fascinating, like I said to Asen.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 06, 2016, 02:28:47 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;902123
Whereas to me, "tactics" means something different.  I'm not interested in "mighty deeds" or "dazzling swordplay" (mileage, vary, etc).  In my mind the world is based still on the middle ages where every freeman was part of the levy and basic formation fighting was as important as basic sword training.  I want a game where I'm using fighters and clerics to hold the line, thieves or light armored fighters as flanking and exploit troops, magic users as my missile contingents, etc.

Now, the OTHER payoff for me is how quick an old style D&D combat goes.  I'm currently playing in a Pathfinder game, and if 5 PCs complete more than one combat in a night we're doing good; combat takes for fucking ever.  In my OD&D game we can easily have six or seven combats in a single session, plus all the attendant exploration.

Which is what Phil did in his games, and what I still do in mine; individual tactics for individuals, group tactics for groups. We'd flow back and forth between the two all the time; I see it is a spectrum, not a dichotomy.

I read that second paragraph and just cringed. I've looked over the shoulders of a lot of Pathfinder games at the FLGS and at events, with an eye towards using it for Tekumel and Barsoom, with the notion that if I use a 'name brand game', then maybe I might be able to attract some players to a game or two - mentioning either Tekumel or Barsoom earns me blank looks, as just about all of the people I've talked to in these locations have no idea what I'm on about. I've found that I have to speak the name of a Big Name Brand Game before comprehension dawns, and using a 'non-standard' setting seems to confuse and bring on anxiety. FATE seemed to be just like Pathfinder, when I saw it run here at the house..

There are days when I despair, I really do. Once people try my ancient style of games, they seem to enjoy themselves, but getting them to try 'something different' is a major hurdle. Add in the continued condition that everything has to take place at the FLGS during normal business hours, or at conventions here and there, and it gets pretty discouraging. At this point, I'll keep building stuff because I like to do it, but I am expecting a very quiet future for the game room.

So it goes; I've had these 'dry spells' before, and they do pass. Patience seems to be indicated.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 06, 2016, 02:52:23 PM
As C.S. Lewis said in The Screwtape Letters, humans are subject to the Law of Undulation; everything in our lives has peaks and troughs.

My biggest quarrel with games these days is, to quote the late Dave Arneson, "Games nowadays have too many rules."  I recently saw an ad for a new RPG "complete in one volume" -- 457 pages!  CROM!  If you took the original brown box D&D and made it full sized pages, it would fit in 64 pages with room to spare.

I must admit it warmed the cockles of my black withered old heart when a young friend of mine tossed over his modern games and bought a reprint of OD&D and started running that after playing in my OD&D game.  To quote him, "I just like that I can say I want to sneak up behind the guard and knock him out, you roll dice, it happens or it doesn't, and we get on with the damn game."

All hope is not lost. :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 06, 2016, 04:40:02 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;902118
Yes!  YES!!!  Great Zot, Yes!  Now, for the rest of you, Chirine knows that since 1977, the thing I wanted to see more than anything else in a Star Wars movie is what a mature, fully trained Jedi Knight was like.  And in the first 15 minutes of Phantom Menace I got all I wanted, as the renowned Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn proceeded to kick butt and take names through a Trade Federation battle cruiser.  The movie could have ended when Obi-Wan Kenobi said "You were right about one thing, Master -- the negotiations were short!"

Isn't that "New Hope"? I mean, Obi-Wan Kenobi was a fully trained, mature Jedi, right?

Quote
I honestly think it may be a case of "too much education and not enough place to use it."  People are overeducated in terms of "how much education does their job need."  So much like a person with excess physical energy may go out "looking for trouble" while the person working 14 hour shifts as a pipefitter just wants a big meal and a soft bed, somebody with "excess education" has more intellectual energy than they know what to do with.

Not a bad analogy:).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;902123
Whereas to me, "tactics" means something different.  I'm not interested in "mighty deeds" or "dazzling swordplay" (mileage, vary, etc).  In my mind the world is based still on the middle ages where every freeman was part of the levy and basic formation fighting was as important as basic sword training.  I want a game where I'm using fighters and clerics to hold the line, thieves or light armored fighters as flanking and exploit troops, magic users as my missile contingents, etc.

...sure, but how exactly this contradicts anything I said?
For a start, Gronan, I didn't say "tactics". I just used an example with tactics. But in the same post, I gave the example with the sorcerers being able to sacrifice their lifeblood to succeed, too. That's also in-genre for S&S games, and is a hint to the players: Yes, you can do that. You can summon your patron when in dire straits. He might want payment, though.

Quote
Now, the OTHER payoff for me is how quick an old style D&D combat goes.  I'm currently playing in a Pathfinder game, and if 5 PCs complete more than one combat in a night we're doing good; combat takes for fucking ever.  In my OD&D game we can easily have six or seven combats in a single session, plus all the attendant exploration.

PF combat is too long for me as well:). Length of combat has nothing to do with what I was talking about, however.
In fact, Pathfinder is an example of a game that helps you imagine, run, and play in a coherent setting less than OD&D or DCC. O

You know which game has probably one of the top 5 best "guides for playing baked in the mechanics"? Pendragon. Is combat in Pendragon long? We both know it's not. Opposed rolls, compare degrees of success, roll damage, maybe roll a check if you rolled damage and if it was a major wound. Next round!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;902129
No problem.

I'll get the 'diary of a sorcerer' written up and posted here. :)

Great!

Quote
Loved your post. This is really good, and is what I'd call 'mechanics to help run the game'; I like this, and it's really a good - in my opinion - design philosophy. (I used it in my own "Qadardalikoi".)

Indeed, it's nice. And the thing is, you don't need this philosophy...if your group reads the same books, like you did. They might still help, because the mechanics tell you "that's how things work in this setting: prepare a resting place, sacrifice lots of your own blood, and you're going to impress the spirit patron you want to strike a deal with". This helps people to be clear at least on two accounts: all magic in this setting is a force of chaos and can be supercharged by blood, and patrons draw power from your suffering. At this point anyone who was thinking to play a good-natured sorcerer, is probably aware that this isn't going to fly.

So no, you don't need them. But they help.

And if one of us thinks "fantasy" means vampires in an urban setting, another thinks it's Conan, another thinks it's about a group of elves, dwarves, hobbits and men on an epic quest, another thinks it's about an inspector on the toxicity of industrial magic, and yet another believes it's about hunting werewolves with silver bullets and throwing grains behind you when chased by a vampire...well, we'd better hope the game gives us some guidance.
 
Quote
What I've been startled by is the philosophy of 'the game is there to help run the mechanics' that I've been seeing when looking over peoples' shoulders at the FLGS and events. I mean, 'Tractics' is very mechanics heavy for example, but we managed to run games pretty smartly.

That's an attitude that's not even related to how mechanics-heavy the thing is.
Though I admit it's more prevalent between "followers" of D&D 3-5 and Pathfinder.

Quote
Fascinating, on several levels.

Sometimes, yes.
Quote from: chirine ba kal;902134
Which is what Phil did in his games, and what I still do in mine; individual tactics for individuals, group tactics for groups. We'd flow back and forth between the two all the time; I see it is a spectrum, not a dichotomy.

+1
And lots and lots of game do that. Mass combat mechanics are a standard part of many systems.

Quote
I read that second paragraph and just cringed. I've looked over the shoulders of a lot of Pathfinder games at the FLGS and at events, with an eye towards using it for Tekumel and Barsoom, with the notion that if I use a 'name brand game', then maybe I might be able to attract some players to a game or two - mentioning either Tekumel or Barsoom earns me blank looks, as just about all of the people I've talked to in these locations have no idea what I'm on about. I've found that I have to speak the name of a Big Name Brand Game before comprehension dawns, and using a 'non-standard' setting seems to confuse and bring on anxiety. FATE seemed to be just like Pathfinder, when I saw it run here at the house..

...I wonder what those Fate games were like, but whatever. No, wait, I can imagine.

Quote

There are days when I despair, I really do. Once people try my ancient style of games, they seem to enjoy themselves, but getting them to try 'something different' is a major hurdle.

"You can bring the horse to the water, but you can't make it drink".

Quote
Add in the continued condition that everything has to take place at the FLGS during normal business hours, or at conventions here and there, and it gets pretty discouraging. At this point, I'll keep building stuff because I like to do it, but I am expecting a very quiet future for the game room.

So it goes; I've had these 'dry spells' before, and they do pass. Patience seems to be indicated.

Totally agree with the patience suggestion;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 06, 2016, 04:50:02 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;902159

And if one of us thinks "fantasy" means vampires in an urban setting, another thinks it's Conan, another thinks it's about a group of elves, dwarves, hobbits and men on an epic quest, another thinks it's about an inspector on the toxicity of industrial magic, and yet another believes it's about hunting werewolves with silver bullets and throwing grains behind you when chased by a vampire...well, we'd better hope the game gives us some guidance.
 

That's why I do this outrageous thing called "talking."

As in so many things, the key to success is careful management of expectations.  Which is why when I pitch a game I try to make it as explicit as I can in about half a page what the game is about and what kind of characters will work best.  And I ask questions of the referee before I play.

Of course, consistent terminology helps.  I remember one game where a friend said she wanted to play in an "evil" campaign.  After a year or so the campaign ended, and she talked afterward about how disappointed she was.  Turned out she didn't want "evil," she wanted "anti-heroes" in the mold of Flashman, Han Solo, and The Three Musketeers.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 06, 2016, 05:08:03 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;902160
That's why I do this outrageous thing called "talking."
How dare you:)!

Also, talking risks missing something important. A system often grants you the answers to questions you didn't remember to ask;).

Quote
As in so many things, the key to success is careful management of expectations.  Which is why when I pitch a game I try to make it as explicit as I can in about half a page what the game is about and what kind of characters will work best.  And I ask questions of the referee before I play.
Which means you're doing the same, just in non-rules codified ways.
But let's take your example of "Middle Ages where all peasants are part of a levy". What's the difference between this and saying "all peasants have a basic minimum of Fight and Formation skills"? Except that one gives clear indications of what that means, understandable even to people that don't know what a peasant levy is and what it does apart from being slaughtered by evil knights?

Quote
Of course, consistent terminology helps.  I remember one game where a friend said she wanted to play in an "evil" campaign.  After a year or so the campaign ended, and she talked afterward about how disappointed she was.  Turned out she didn't want "evil," she wanted "anti-heroes" in the mold of Flashman, Han Solo, and The Three Musketeers.
Well, that's her fault, or rather the fault of whoever taught her that all PCs that aren't walking do-gooders with a violent streak are "evil":p.
But that's just an example of how "natural language" often trips us without meaning to, and why people in a common hobby often use slang. It just so happens that in RPGs, said slang might well include mechanics;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 06, 2016, 05:12:28 PM
It can but it doesn't have to.

And as far as "all freemen are part of a levy," if somebody doesn't understand that I rather expect them to ask.

Of course, I ALSO prefer to play in the mode of "Don't worry about the rules, just tell me what you want to do."  That's become, in my particular case, an absolute, in fact; I will not play in a game where I have to read the rules first, period.  If I have to read more than two 8 1/2 x 11 inch pieces of paper about ANYTHING before I play, I simply will not do it.

Mileage, et cetera.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on June 06, 2016, 05:19:36 PM
Funny thing, I think if you can get to people before the rule-for-everything-everything-has-a-rule mentality sets in, you are good to go. I recently kicked off a Tekumel game for a bunch of kids, all under 13, a 15 year old and one of their dads (who I gamed with back when we were their age) running it on a stripped down Runequest 2 with the spells from Bethorm and it has been nothing short of awesome. The 15 year old had played a lot of Pathfinder and he struggled at first with the lack of rules (you mean if I want to sneak up behind the guard and knock him out, you roll dice, it happens or it doesn't, and we get on with the damn game? YES!) but by the end of the first session, he was going "this is great! I always wanted to play like this but couldn't figure out how!" Now as Gronan said, without an older hand it may have devolved into Lord of the Flies without more rules and structure in places. But all these kids like the openness of the game.And the dad looked at them and said, that is how we always did it back in the day.

Also, they have internalized the Tekumel stuff so fast! Clan more important than individual. No lawless murderhobo stuff. And as was said up thread, the "old" sci-fi tropes from the 40's are new to them! And completely exotic! The first eye they came into contact elicited so many "COOOLs" and "WOWs" it would have made Gronan's black withered old heart grow three sizes that day and give him the strength of ten Gronans plus two!

Everyone has talked about some the books/media that they consumed that has helped form their gaming. I wonder how many folks are just too young to remember UHF stations. They were you saw all the old movies. Usually not the expensive high end movies but many of the ones mentioned in this thread. Cable and movie channels that came along after (and killed UHF) showed all the new movies, never old Sinbad/Jason and the Argonauts/sword and sandal stuff or things with Errol Flynn. My wife was blown away when she saw me watching Tony Curtis in the Vikings not long ago, as she couldn't picture him swinging a sword, so I showed her Taras Bulba (Yul Brynner had hair in it!). She wanted to know where I had heard about them. I told her I remembered watching them as a kid on UHF. I have heard Gronan and Chirine talk about the things that formed the DNA, not only of Tekumel, but of rpgs in general and sadly most younger people have never been exposed to it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 06, 2016, 05:33:19 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;902169
It can but it doesn't have to.
Well, Gronan, I started with the same statement, didn't I?

Quote
There's nothing wrong with using a "d100 roll higher" mechanic.

But sometimes, the right mechanics gives ideas to the players - ideas they might not get otherwise.

So...there's two "levels" of mechanics. "Mechanics as reflection of what happens", and "mechanics as guidelines". The more you know about what happens OOC, the less you need mechanics to give you IC guidance, and vice versa. The "vice versa" clause is why wizardry rules are usually longer than rules for fighting, too.
Nobody says you need the second "level" - or rather, mechanics of the "other school". You can just use three sentences of rules (though that's "not an RPG" to some people, obviously - I'm still amused by that statement), and run an Arthurian romance with them.
Or you can use Pendragon.

Quote
And as far as "all freemen are part of a levy," if somebody doesn't understand that I rather expect them to ask.
Ask who? The rulebook? I'm talking about what is in a rulebook. Of course a good GM would be able to explain it, even to players who haven't read the book.
The problem with communicating this kind of info without rules is that sometimes people don't know what to do with it, or miss some relevant info that was in the text. OTOH, when you write it as rules, you can formalize the info you expect to be most relevant.

Quote
Of course, I ALSO prefer to play in the mode of "Don't worry about the rules, just tell me what you want to do."  That's become, in my particular case, an absolute, in fact; I will not play in a game where I have to read the rules first, period.  If I have to read more than two 8 1/2 x 11 inch pieces of paper about ANYTHING before I play, I simply will not do it.

Mileage, et cetera.
Sure, but not all people are like you. Some hear "you're Arthurian knights in a Britain taken from Malory", and say "cool setting, but what do you DO in it?" (Some even keep asking you pointed questions until you identify a dungeon-like structure for them).
Do you want me to give you links to threads asking that same question about different settings:D?
Same people tend to be happy with Adventure Paths, though...


Quote from: Big Andy;902172
Funny thing, I think if you can get to people before the rule-for-everything-everything-has-a-rule mentality sets in, you are good to go.
I can confirm. And I always try to do exactly that.


Quote
I recently kicked off a Tekumel game for a bunch of kids, all under 13, a 15 year old and one of their dads (who I gamed with back when we were their age) running it on a stripped down Runequest 2 with the spells from Bethorm and it has been nothing short of awesome. The 15 year old had played a lot of Pathfinder and he struggled at first with the lack of rules (you mean if I want to sneak up behind the guard and knock him out, you roll dice, it happens or it doesn't, and we get on with the damn game? YES!) but by the end of the first session, he was going "this is great! I always wanted to play like this but couldn't figure out how!" Now as Gronan said, without an older hand it may have devolved into Lord of the Flies without more rules and structure in places. But all these kids like the openness of the game.And the dad looked at them and said, that is how we always did it back in the day.
Good job!

Quote
Also, they have internalized the Tekumel stuff so fast! Clan more important than individual. No lawless murderhobo stuff. And as was said up thread, the "old" sci-fi tropes from the 40's are new to them! And completely exotic! The first eye they came into contact elicited so many "COOOLs" and "WOWs" it would have made Gronan's black withered old heart grow three sizes that day and give him the strength of ten Gronans plus two!
:D

Quote
Everyone has talked about some the books/media that they consumed that has helped form their gaming. I wonder how many folks are just too young to remember UHF stations. They were you saw all the old movies. Usually not the expensive high end movies but many of the ones mentioned in this thread. Cable and movie channels that came along after (and killed UHF) showed all the new movies, never old Sinbad/Jason and the Argonauts/sword and sandal stuff or things with Errol Flynn. My wife was blown away when she saw me watching Tony Curtis in the Vikings not long ago, as she couldn't picture him swinging a sword, so I showed her Taras Bulba (Yul Brynner had hair in it!). She wanted to know where I had heard about them. I told her I remembered watching them as a kid on UHF. I have heard Gronan and Chirine talk about the things that formed the DNA, not only of Tekumel, but of rpgs in general and sadly most younger people have never been exposed to it.
And I have only one answer to that...
"Long Live Project Gutenberg!"
Or, for a more ominous version.
"It cannot disappear that which has been digitalized, and in long aeons to come, even the notion of disappearing may yet die. And when the wind blows, the chaff flies away. In the end, that which has been old, might be new again":D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on June 06, 2016, 05:50:17 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;902134
At this point, I'll keep building stuff because I like to do it, but I am expecting a very quiet future for the game room.

So it goes; I've had these 'dry spells' before, and they do pass. Patience seems to be indicated.


You should look closely at the "Mythic GM Emulator" (http://www.mythic.wordpr.com/page14/page9/page9.html) as a way to play with your stuff in a way that is fun and surprising.
It works surprising well as a way to add either a GM or a Player when you don't have one or enough.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 06, 2016, 06:23:16 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;902160
Turned out she didn't want "evil," she wanted "anti-heroes" in the mold of Flashman, Han Solo, and The Three Musketeers.
That would be the shoots Greedo before Greedo can shoot him Han Solo.

I had the opposite problem of a player who heard "Three Musketeers" and expected the Musketeers to be good guy heroes instead of the sort of roguish heroes Dumas wrote about and Lester filmed.

Quote from: Greentongue;902184
You should look closely at the "Mythic GM Emulator" (http://www.mythic.wordpr.com/page14/page9/page9.html) as a way to play with your stuff in a way that is fun and surprising.
I endorse this statement. I've used the Mythic GME to good effect for both solo play and as a tool when I GM for others.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 06, 2016, 06:55:02 PM
UHF was indeed a loss because of all the cheezy old movies.  Not only Taras Bulba with Yul Brinner, but don't forget John Wayne as Gengiz Khan!

And the Italian studios cranked out "Sword and Sandal" movies like Hollywood cranked out Westerns.  And with a bit of redubbing they reached this country as the "Sons of Hercules!" movies.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on June 06, 2016, 07:32:59 PM
I'd like to note that there's a broad spectrum of a rule for everything where there's a consistent and systematic method to the thing and the book doesn't turn into a million pages of special case rules.  The modern tendency towards talent trees and special moves drives me nuts.  I want the rules to work the way they work, not a list of stupid names for ways you can break the rules.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 06, 2016, 09:39:33 PM
Everything I was going to say about mechanics has pretty well been addressed. The only point I want to make is that, for me at least, the mechanics of the game are only there to help advance the story. I can honestly say I could care less whether something is clearly spelled out in a rules corpus or not. If a fighter needs to climb a cliff or wall in order to escape well let him try. If it's an easy slope then so be it. Maybe I'll roll once just to see if something flukey happens. Then again I may not roll. If the fighter wants to climb Thulsa Doom's Tower, well he better give me a detailed breakdown on how he plans to do it. I guess my point is that you don't need rules for every eventuality or possibility. When I was in my final year of high school, and while in the army, I got it in my head that D&D was too loosey goosey and more detailed rule sets were needed. I honestly thought that Rolemaster was the ticket. My friends and I spent an afternoon rolling up characters. Our first game session we spent the entire evening resolving  a combat. We went back to D&D, and similar game systems, after a couple of attempts at Rolemaster. Ultimately I guess one should RPG in a manner that works for them. As I said in an earlier I have been fighting my guys for years in an attempt to simplify game mechanics. I guess that's the way it goes.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 06, 2016, 09:46:05 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;902200
UHF was indeed a loss because of all the cheezy old movies.  Not only Taras Bulba with Yul Brinner, but don't forget John Wayne as Gengiz Khan!

And the Italian studios cranked out "Sword and Sandal" movies like Hollywood cranked out Westerns.  And with a bit of redubbing they reached this country as the "Sons of Hercules!" movies.


Don't forget the great Hong Kong, Kung fu films. When I was a kid there was a station out of Rochester that showed these films every Saturday afternoon. The Five Deadly Venoms and David Carradine's Kung Fu inspired hours of jumping and kicking in little Shemek and his friends (as well as countless bruises and a broken finger):p

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on June 07, 2016, 01:59:00 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;902237
Don't forget the great Hong Kong, Kung fu films. When I was a kid there was a station out of Rochester that showed these films every Saturday afternoon. The Five Deadly Venoms and David Carradine's Kung Fu inspired hours of jumping and kicking in little Shemek and his friends (as well as countless bruises and a broken finger):p

Shemek.


Saturday Drive-in Movie, channel 5 for me at 3pm...This is where I first saw Avenging Eagle!!! One saturday I was watching and there was a big storm. Needless to say, they were showing Crippled Avengers. The power went out at last fight scene!!! I went nuts!!! I own a copy on dvd now. Along with many of my Shaw Brothers favorites...!!! Good stuff. Lord Fu Shi eat your heart out(even if you are Mihalli).

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 07, 2016, 03:39:53 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;902172
Funny thing, I think if you can get to people before the rule-for-everything-everything-has-a-rule mentality sets in, you are good to go. I recently kicked off a Tekumel game for a bunch of kids, all under 13, a 15 year old and one of their dads (who I gamed with back when we were their age) running it on a stripped down Runequest 2 with the spells from Bethorm and it has been nothing short of awesome. The 15 year old had played a lot of Pathfinder and he struggled at first with the lack of rules (you mean if I want to sneak up behind the guard and knock him out, you roll dice, it happens or it doesn't, and we get on with the damn game? YES!) but by the end of the first session, he was going "this is great! I always wanted to play like this but couldn't figure out how!" Now as Gronan said, without an older hand it may have devolved into Lord of the Flies without more rules and structure in places. But all these kids like the openness of the game.And the dad looked at them and said, that is how we always did it back in the day.

Also, they have internalized the Tekumel stuff so fast! Clan more important than individual. No lawless murderhobo stuff. And as was said up thread, the "old" sci-fi tropes from the 40's are new to them! And completely exotic! The first eye they came into contact elicited so many "COOOLs" and "WOWs" it would have made Gronan's black withered old heart grow three sizes that day and give him the strength of ten Gronans plus two!


Wonderful! Simply wonderful! Congratulations! :)

Quote from: Big Andy;902172
Everyone has talked about some the books/media that they consumed that has helped form their gaming. I wonder how many folks are just too young to remember UHF stations. They were you saw all the old movies. Usually not the expensive high end movies but many of the ones mentioned in this thread. Cable and movie channels that came along after (and killed UHF) showed all the new movies, never old Sinbad/Jason and the Argonauts/sword and sandal stuff or things with Errol Flynn. My wife was blown away when she saw me watching Tony Curtis in the Vikings not long ago, as she couldn't picture him swinging a sword, so I showed her Taras Bulba (Yul Brynner had hair in it!). She wanted to know where I had heard about them. I told her I remembered watching them as a kid on UHF. I have heard Gronan and Chirine talk about the things that formed the DNA, not only of Tekumel, but of rpgs in general and sadly most younger people have never been exposed to it.


I've tried running 'film festivals', but people don;t seem to have time for that kind of thing anymore. Maybe YouTube lists?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 07, 2016, 03:44:15 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;902184
You should look closely at the "Mythic GM Emulator" (http://www.mythic.wordpr.com/page14/page9/page9.html) as a way to play with your stuff in a way that is fun and surprising.
It works surprising well as a way to add either a GM or a Player when you don't have one or enough.
=


I did, and thank you for the link. I've been using Mr. Grant's and Mr. Featherstone's ideas for this, as well as Mr. Bath's. It's how I have been running the extension of Phil's meta-game, the same way he did - solo gaming, as it were.

My problem, and perhaps it's unsolvable, is that attracting new gamers seems to be very difficult. I've tried advertising, being open what amounts to retail hours, and other ploys. It all seems to come down to "What set of rules?", from what people have told me.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 07, 2016, 03:45:17 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;902200
UHF was indeed a loss because of all the cheezy old movies.  Not only Taras Bulba with Yul Brinner, but don't forget John Wayne as Gengiz Khan!

And the Italian studios cranked out "Sword and Sandal" movies like Hollywood cranked out Westerns.  And with a bit of redubbing they reached this country as the "Sons of Hercules!" movies.


Got fifty (!) of these on DVD, in a nice boxed set. Break out the popcorn!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 07, 2016, 09:15:50 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;902200
UHF was indeed a loss because of all the cheezy old movies.  Not only Taras Bulba with Yul Brinner, but don't forget John Wayne as Gengiz Khan!

And the Italian studios cranked out "Sword and Sandal" movies like Hollywood cranked out Westerns.  And with a bit of redubbing they reached this country as the "Sons of Hercules!" movies.
*scribbles notes for Youtube searches*

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;902233
Everything I was going to say about mechanics has pretty well been addressed. The only point I want to make is that, for me at least, the mechanics of the game are only there to help advance the story. I can honestly say I could care less whether something is clearly spelled out in a rules corpus or not. If a fighter needs to climb a cliff or wall in order to escape well let him try. If it's an easy slope then so be it. Maybe I'll roll once just to see if something flukey happens. Then again I may not roll. If the fighter wants to climb Thulsa Doom's Tower, well he better give me a detailed breakdown on how he plans to do it. I guess my point is that you don't need rules for every eventuality or possibility. When I was in my final year of high school, and while in the army, I got it in my head that D&D was too loosey goosey and more detailed rule sets were needed. I honestly thought that Rolemaster was the ticket. My friends and I spent an afternoon rolling up characters. Our first game session we spent the entire evening resolving  a combat. We went back to D&D, and similar game systems, after a couple of attempts at Rolemaster. Ultimately I guess one should RPG in a manner that works for them. As I said in an earlier I have been fighting my guys for years in an attempt to simplify game mechanics. I guess that's the way it goes.

Shemek.
Nobody says you need rules for every possibility, Lord Shemek. Some people might feel differently, though, or simply want a rule they can employ in every situation - the latter exists at least since Traveller and Runequest, too.

BTW, "roll 1d100, see who got more, in case of doubt compare to attribute" is exactly an unified mechanic you can employ in every situation - and a rather good one, at that. That's what RuneQuest6/Mythras would look like if all rolls were opposed (and most are:)).

Quote from: David Johansen
I'd like to note that there's a broad spectrum of a rule for everything where there's a consistent and systematic method to the thing and the book doesn't turn into a million pages of special case rules. The modern tendency towards talent trees and special moves drives me nuts. I want the rules to work the way they work, not a list of stupid names for ways you can break the rules.
Calling exception-based mechanics "modern" is simply untrue, but I agree. That's my preference as well;).

And now, I believe we've cleared the mechanics question, so can we get to the important stuff? I mean books, of course:D!

So, here's my list. Apologies, try as I might, I didn't manage to constrict it to SF/F only, and some items might be counted as non-fiction. Ah well, you can pick and choose, obviously...;)

H.L. Oldie (http://oldie-worlds.com/news.html) Everything is great, IME. But for RPG players, I recommend "The Hero Must Be (Al)One". No idea if it's translated, yet, and under what title.
Andrzej Sapkowski, "The Witcher" series and "The Hussite trilogy" (and some short stories).
Shi Nai'an and Luo Guanzhong: The Water Margin
Loius Cha, Return of the Condor Heroes
Fritz Leiber, Lankhmar series
M.Moorcock, "The Eternal Champion" (though I like Hawkmoon best).
Lu Gong's "Sentimental Swordsman, Ruthless Sword" (and the follow-up, though it's not nearly as good).
REHoward, all books and novels and short stories
Jack London. Everything is worth reading, again, but "The Sea Wolf" is nearly mandatory.
ERB, the Amtor and Barsoom series
Frank Herbert's Dune. There's a reason I said "Frank Herbert", the others are more hit-and-miss.
JRRT's Silmarilion, and "Bilbo Baggins".
Roger Zelazni, "Amber", "Lord of the Light", "Crackerjack", "That Immortal", and "Lord Demon", plus his short stories (undeservedly left without attention, IMO).
John Brunner, "The Traveller In Black" stories.
David Gemmell, pretty much everything
K.J. Parker, The Fencer Trilogy (and his short stories).
Steven Brust, "Vlad Taltos".
P.J. Farmer, Image oft he Beast and Riverworld
Robert A. Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land
Mike Resnick, Santiago, The Widowmaker series, the Prophetess (?) series and the "Paradise","Purgatory" and "Inferno" books. Advice: only after reading those, read "Birthright: The Book of Man", too.
The Mabinogion, the Journey to the West, and the Icelandic Sagas, best read together.
Tetsuo Hara and Yoshiyuki Okamura, "Fist of the Blue Sky". (I find "Fist of the North Star" to be a bit too incoherent, but you might try it as well). Yes, I just recommended a manga! If the odds were better than 1:10^9 of you finding it, I'd have recommended the E.L.O. comic...which only ever appeared in Bulgarian, though (AFAIK).
Krali Marko's story (though you're unlikely to find that translated).
Sheherezada (?), "1001 Nights". Find the original translations.
Mahabharata
Ramayana
Beowulf
Gilgamesh
Ma Wing-shing: Chinese Hero stories (Yes, manhua).
Emilio Salgary, pretty much anything, but especially the "Malay Tiger"/"Sandokan" series.
Rafael Sabatini, "Scaramouche" and "Captian Blood".
Arturo-Perez Reverte, the Alatriste series and "The Fencing Teacher" (?).
"Fierabras", anonymous French "chanson de geste"
The Tale of the Heike
Abu ʾl-Qasim Ferdowsi Tusi, "Shahnameh" (and if you find it all translated, you're lucky bastards:D)
Homer, "the Iliad" and "the Odyssey"
"Hikayat Hang Tuah", though what goes for Shahnameh, goes for it as well.
Zahari Stoyanov, "Notes on the Bulgarian uprisings" (and if you find that one translated, then probably Shahnameh and Hikayat Hang Tuah have been translated a few years earlier;)).
L.N. Tolstoy, "War and Peace".
Sir Mallory, "Le Morte d'Arthur"

At least, these are the RPG-relevant ones, and again, I'm skipping the "pure non-fiction" here;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 07, 2016, 01:17:51 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;902308
Got fifty (!) of these on DVD, in a nice boxed set. Break out the popcorn!

Oh, my! :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 07, 2016, 01:21:18 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;902306
My problem, and perhaps it's unsolvable, is that attracting new gamers seems to be very difficult. I've tried advertising, being open what amounts to retail hours, and other ploys. It all seems to come down to "What set of rules?", from what people have told me.

Honestly, I don't even try any more.  But I do offer to run games once I get to know people a bit, and they almost always agree.  I found a group playing Star Wars d20 at the Source, joined them, and after a year or two offered to run D&D, once I'd got to know them.  And my NYC D&D group started when I showed up at an art gallery in Tribeca where there was an exhibition of art inspired by AD&D first edition (seriously).  So that was an easy score also.  GaryCon is also an easy place to find gamers.

Mostly, I just game with my friends.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 07, 2016, 01:23:25 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;902350
*scribbles notes for Youtube searches*


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IknX3XEcPAQ
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 07, 2016, 02:24:23 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;902387
Oh, my! :D

Boxed set of Sinbads, both Ben-hur's, both Thief of Baghdads, first two Mummys, the Hornblower series, and singles like Gladiator and Kingdom of Heaven. And Alex, of course. :)

And a popcorn maker. 40" in the game room.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 07, 2016, 02:40:25 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;902388
Honestly, I don't even try any more.  But I do offer to run games once I get to know people a bit, and they almost always agree.  I found a group playing Star Wars d20 at the Source, joined them, and after a year or two offered to run D&D, once I'd got to know them.  And my NYC D&D group started when I showed up at an art gallery in Tribeca where there was an exhibition of art inspired by AD&D first edition (seriously).  So that was an easy score also.  GaryCon is also an easy place to find gamers.

Mostly, I just game with my friends.

All good advice; tried several of these gambits. Problem I've found is that nobody seems to recognize the word 'Barsoom', let alone Tekumel, but then this is a locale where the names 'Gygax' and 'Arneson' draw equally blank looks. What I really need to do, I would venture to say, is abandon what I like and go with the flow of popular games. And, yes, I'm fully aware that I could easly get players at Gary Con; we had a great time, last year. However, I'm looking for a continuing campaign situation, not a special event sort of thing; I'm not fond of one-offs.

Gaming with friends is an option, assuming I had any I could trust not to rip me off. Had a great gaming group going since 2002, until people got visions of sugar plums dancing in their heads. I've had a succession of 'friends', especially over the last five years, try to use me for their own purposes and damn me, the Missus, the game group, and the other gamers - especially the younger ones - in the process. It's all about their 'prestige', 'position', and their dreams of The Big Money; the last - and literally the last - visitors who were my 'friends' were the ones who offered me all-expense trips to Gary Con and North Texas RPG Con if only I would censor myself both in my blog and in this thread, as my comments were a 'detriment to their business interests'. Which is why I now screen guests very carefully, and am very careful about who is and is not a 'friend'. I've been burned too many times by people who talk very big, but turn out to be promising other people's money. Vaporware merchants, if you will, and greedy ones at that.

We'll see; the wheel will turn. It always has.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on June 07, 2016, 03:22:30 PM
I've never done it but lots of folks play online. I know that may not jibe entirely with your awesome models and minis but it could be done.

And I think a few people in this thread recognize the words Barsoom and Tekumel...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on June 07, 2016, 05:35:08 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;902421
I've never done it but lots of folks play online. I know that may not jibe entirely with your awesome models and minis but it could be done.

And I think a few people in this thread recognize the words Barsoom and Tekumel...

Yes, while playing online does work it is a lot harder to pull out then you might imagine.
(From my experience anyway.)
While I've had games run for a year, and my current one has almost reached a year, the smallest thing can kill one.

Barsoom and Tekumel do ring bells for some.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 08, 2016, 01:54:26 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;902421
I've never done it but lots of folks play online. I know that may not jibe entirely with your awesome models and minis but it could be done.

And I think a few people in this thread recognize the words Barsoom and Tekumel...

Good idea! We've looked into this; we have bandwidth issues as well as hardware/software obsolescence issues, and the cost of the upgrades would be about the same as a trip to Gary Con - albeit in comfort, I'll admit.

The crux of the matter, as you point out, is my very object-heavy gaming style. I got into this habit a very long time ago, and I don't see myself breaking it any time soon. So, I dunno. We'll see what happens.

And yes, people in this forum do recognize the two; it's the people at the FLGS who don't - which astonishes me, in re Barsoom.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 08, 2016, 02:00:07 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;902455
Yes, while playing online does work it is a lot harder to pull out then you might imagine.
(From my experience anyway.)
While I've had games run for a year, and my current one has almost reached a year, the smallest thing can kill one.

Barsoom and Tekumel do ring bells for some.
=

Yep. Played in an online game of "Bethorm" with Jeff Dee, on a virtual tabletop set-up. Great game - he did a good job - but the VTT required the ministrations of a separate assistant GM t keep the game moving. If I was going have ti do this, I'd have the technician running the computer and having an open mike at the table with a webcam positioned over the table for a view that everyone could see.

They do, just not here at the FLGS. Much to my astonishment.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 08, 2016, 03:46:43 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;902388
Honestly, I don't even try any more.  But I do offer to run games once I get to know people a bit, and they almost always agree.  I found a group playing Star Wars d20 at the Source, joined them, and after a year or two offered to run D&D, once I'd got to know them.  And my NYC D&D group started when I showed up at an art gallery in Tribeca where there was an exhibition of art inspired by AD&D first edition (seriously).  So that was an easy score also.  GaryCon is also an easy place to find gamers.

Mostly, I just game with my friends.
Here, here, heed the words of the Glorious General!

Play what you like, with people you know, Uncle! Not necessarily with friends, acquaintances are actually better (hint: it's harder to boot out a friend if he or she turns out to be a bad fit).

If at all possible, try it with people new to the hobby. Way too many "experienced* gamers" have firmly set ideas "how RPGs should be". Just look at almost any thread...:D
But in all seriousness, this cannot be overstated: If at all possible, try to get new people interested in the hobby. As Jester Raiin would say, "the stars are right for that"...or in other words, "nerd is the new cool, as far as Hollywood trends are concerned" (which is what I would say, instead).

Also, try to get at least one or two women to try. The difference IME is, if women get interested in your game, they bring a friend to try it, too, and sometimes help with the snacks. If men get interested, at best they bring beer:D!
One of these is more favourable to growing your players network.
(Some people would say the above makes me a sexist. I would say that there's a reason why night clubs have "girl nights" where women don't pay entry tax, and possibly get other bonuses:p. If it works for businesses that aim to gather people for social interactions, and obviously works well enough that they're ready to make expenses...:p)

*Most of them are actually "mildly experienced" even by my metrics, and you and Gronan have been playing for 2.5 times as long as I have.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;902391
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IknX3XEcPAQ
Thanks, man!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;902416
All good advice; tried several of these gambits. Problem I've found is that nobody seems to recognize the word 'Barsoom', let alone Tekumel, but then this is a locale where the names 'Gygax' and 'Arneson' draw equally blank looks. What I really need to do, I would venture to say, is abandon what I like and go with the flow of popular games. And, yes, I'm fully aware that I could easly get players at Gary Con; we had a great time, last year. However, I'm looking for a continuing campaign situation, not a special event sort of thing; I'm not fond of one-offs.
Despite your dislike...start with a one-off, like a convention scenario. Then hint you might continue it. But at first, the codeword is "no obligations", and you have to mean it.

Also, adopt the "we play with whoever shows up" model. It actually leads to improving the attendance, my empiric experience says;).
It seems many people are more likely to shaft the session when they know you'd cancel it, then when they know the other players would get to do stuff without them, and their character is going to pass that time in drunken stupor or fever due to an wound infection, or the like. It's important: no playing over what happened when they come for the next session-you just wake with a hangover, no memories, but the hangover passes quickly. The time that passed for everyone, passed for everyone. Period. The Referee has set his foot down, and won't budge:).

Quote
Gaming with friends is an option, assuming I had any I could trust not to rip me off. Had a great gaming group going since 2002, until people got visions of sugar plums dancing in their heads. I've had a succession of 'friends', especially over the last five years, try to use me for their own purposes and damn me, the Missus, the game group, and the other gamers - especially the younger ones - in the process. It's all about their 'prestige', 'position', and their dreams of The Big Money; the last - and literally the last - visitors who were my 'friends' were the ones who offered me all-expense trips to Gary Con and North Texas RPG Con if only I would censor myself both in my blog and in this thread, as my comments were a 'detriment to their business interests'. Which is why I now screen guests very carefully, and am very careful about who is and is not a 'friend'. I've been burned too many times by people who talk very big, but turn out to be promising other people's money. Vaporware merchants, if you will, and greedy ones at that.
That's just sad...and I don't mean for you, I mean for society.
My solution would be to get acquintances to try. Don't talk about business prospects to them.

Quote
We'll see; the wheel will turn. It always has.
Indeed.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;902515
Good idea! We've looked into this; we have bandwidth issues as well as hardware/software obsolescence issues, and the cost of the upgrades would be about the same as a trip to Gary Con - albeit in comfort, I'll admit.

The crux of the matter, as you point out, is my very object-heavy gaming style. I got into this habit a very long time ago, and I don't see myself breaking it any time soon. So, I dunno. We'll see what happens.

And yes, people in this forum do recognize the two; it's the people at the FLGS who don't - which astonishes me, in re Barsoom.
Pictures, Uncle. You don't need to scan your props.
Just tell them you use props, and make sure to upload them pictures.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;902517
Yep. Played in an online game of "Bethorm" with Jeff Dee, on a virtual tabletop set-up. Great game - he did a good job - but the VTT required the ministrations of a separate assistant GM t keep the game moving. If I was going have ti do this, I'd have the technician running the computer and having an open mike at the table with a webcam positioned over the table for a view that everyone could see.

They do, just not here at the FLGS. Much to my astonishment.
...VTT is actually heavy. That's why I play online, but not in VTT;). There are also forum games, which you can run from, more or less, any mobile device (if you can deal with the slow pace, and get a keyboard - otherwise the writing would be a chore).
With a laptop, this should be easy.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 08, 2016, 08:54:00 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;902350
*scribbles notes for Youtube searches*


Nobody says you need rules for every possibility, Lord Shemek. Some people might feel differently, though, or simply want a rule they can employ in every situation - the latter exists at least since Traveller and Runequest, too.

BTW, "roll 1d100, see who got more, in case of doubt compare to attribute" is exactly an unified mechanic you can employ in every situation - and a rather good one, at that. That's what RuneQuest6/Mythras would look like if all rolls were opposed (and most are:)).


Calling exception-based mechanics "modern" is simply untrue, but I agree. That's my preference as well;).

And now, I believe we've cleared the mechanics question, so can we get to the important stuff? I mean books, of course:D!

So, here's my list. Apologies, try as I might, I didn't manage to constrict it to SF/F only, and some items might be counted as non-fiction. Ah well, you can pick and choose, obviously...;)

H.L. Oldie (http://oldie-worlds.com/news.html) Everything is great, IME. But for RPG players, I recommend "The Hero Must Be (Al)One". No idea if it's translated, yet, and under what title.
Andrzej Sapkowski, "The Witcher" series and "The Hussite trilogy" (and some short stories).
Shi Nai'an and Luo Guanzhong: The Water Margin
Loius Cha, Return of the Condor Heroes
Fritz Leiber, Lankhmar series
M.Moorcock, "The Eternal Champion" (though I like Hawkmoon best).
Lu Gong's "Sentimental Swordsman, Ruthless Sword" (and the follow-up, though it's not nearly as good).
REHoward, all books and novels and short stories
Jack London. Everything is worth reading, again, but "The Sea Wolf" is nearly mandatory.
ERB, the Amtor and Barsoom series
Frank Herbert's Dune. There's a reason I said "Frank Herbert", the others are more hit-and-miss.
JRRT's Silmarilion, and "Bilbo Baggins".
Roger Zelazni, "Amber", "Lord of the Light", "Crackerjack", "That Immortal", and "Lord Demon", plus his short stories (undeservedly left without attention, IMO).
John Brunner, "The Traveller In Black" stories.
David Gemmell, pretty much everything
K.J. Parker, The Fencer Trilogy (and his short stories).
Steven Brust, "Vlad Taltos".
P.J. Farmer, Image oft he Beast and Riverworld
Robert A. Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land
Mike Resnick, Santiago, The Widowmaker series, the Prophetess (?) series and the "Paradise","Purgatory" and "Inferno" books. Advice: only after reading those, read "Birthright: The Book of Man", too.
The Mabinogion, the Journey to the West, and the Icelandic Sagas, best read together.
Tetsuo Hara and Yoshiyuki Okamura, "Fist of the Blue Sky". (I find "Fist of the North Star" to be a bit too incoherent, but you might try it as well). Yes, I just recommended a manga! If the odds were better than 1:10^9 of you finding it, I'd have recommended the E.L.O. comic...which only ever appeared in Bulgarian, though (AFAIK).
Krali Marko's story (though you're unlikely to find that translated).
Sheherezada (?), "1001 Nights". Find the original translations.
Mahabharata
Ramayana
Beowulf
Gilgamesh
Ma Wing-shing: Chinese Hero stories (Yes, manhua).
Emilio Salgary, pretty much anything, but especially the "Malay Tiger"/"Sandokan" series.
Rafael Sabatini, "Scaramouche" and "Captian Blood".
Arturo-Perez Reverte, the Alatriste series and "The Fencing Teacher" (?).
"Fierabras", anonymous French "chanson de geste"
The Tale of the Heike
Abu ʾl-Qasim Ferdowsi Tusi, "Shahnameh" (and if you find it all translated, you're lucky bastards:D)
Homer, "the Iliad" and "the Odyssey"
"Hikayat Hang Tuah", though what goes for Shahnameh, goes for it as well.
Zahari Stoyanov, "Notes on the Bulgarian uprisings" (and if you find that one translated, then probably Shahnameh and Hikayat Hang Tuah have been translated a few years earlier;)).
L.N. Tolstoy, "War and Peace".
Sir Mallory, "Le Morte d'Arthur"

At least, these are the RPG-relevant ones, and again, I'm skipping the "pure non-fiction" here;).


Asen my friend, I agree with you about not needing rules for every situation. As you rightly pointed out there are some people who like this type of rules heavy environment. Not me though. My biggest beef with too many mechanics ( ie rules) is that it bogs things down and causes game sessions to degenerate into dice rolling sessions. Any way, IME at least. Your comment on opposed d100 roles is bang on, and where I would like my games to move towards, but my group is just too familiar and comfortable with D&D. We have been using it for so long that it's second nature for all, and time being such a premium for all of us I don't see us switching any time soon. Ultimately I would sooner have regular game sessions than "perfect" game mechanics.

I like your list a lot! There are many old favourites on it like Gilgamesh and ERB, and many new ones to look at.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 08, 2016, 01:28:29 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;902553
Asen my friend, I agree with you about not needing rules for every situation. As you rightly pointed out there are some people who like this type of rules heavy environment. Not me though. My biggest beef with too many mechanics ( ie rules) is that it bogs things down and causes game sessions to degenerate into dice rolling sessions. Any way, IME at least. Your comment on opposed d100 roles is bang on, and where I would like my games to move towards, but my group is just too familiar and comfortable with D&D. We have been using it for so long that it's second nature for all, and time being such a premium for all of us I don't see us switching any time soon. Ultimately I would sooner have regular game sessions than "perfect" game mechanics.
Glad we agree on the matter:).

Quote
I like your list a lot! There are many old favourites on it like Gilgamesh and ERB, and many new ones to look at.

Shemek.
Yeah, you totally should. You're actually among the few people that can get easy access to the sources in Bulgarian, as we've established;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 08, 2016, 02:57:01 PM
Quote from: asenrg;902620


yeah, you totally should. You're actually among the few people that can get easy access to the sources in bulgarian, as we've established;).



:D

Слава богу!

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 09, 2016, 02:04:18 AM
Breaking this down into sections, as I have some kind of long responses...

Quote from: AsenRG;902526
Here, here, heed the words of the Glorious General!

Play what you like, with people you know, Uncle! Not necessarily with friends, acquaintances are actually better (hint: it's harder to boot out a friend if he or she turns out to be a bad fit).

If at all possible, try it with people new to the hobby. Way too many "experienced* gamers" have firmly set ideas "how RPGs should be". Just look at almost any thread...:D
But in all seriousness, this cannot be overstated: If at all possible, try to get new people interested in the hobby. As Jester Raiin would say, "the stars are right for that"...or in other words, "nerd is the new cool, as far as Hollywood trends are concerned" (which is what I would say, instead).

Also, try to get at least one or two women to try. The difference IME is, if women get interested in your game, they bring a friend to try it, too, and sometimes help with the snacks. If men get interested, at best they bring beer:D!
One of these is more favourable to growing your players network.
(Some people would say the above makes me a sexist. I would say that there's a reason why night clubs have "girl nights" where women don't pay entry tax, and possibly get other bonuses:p. If it works for businesses that aim to gather people for social interactions, and obviously works well enough that they're ready to make expenses...:p)

*Most of them are actually "mildly experienced" even by my metrics, and you and Gronan have been playing for 2.5 times as long as I have.

Agreed. This is the basis that I've invited people into my games over the years, and in the past it's worked very well. Currently, the issue is one of 'outreach'; because I work from 3:30 p.m. to midnight, Monday through Friday, I have very little opportunity to meet and talk to people. I've been out to the local gaming shops, but several of them are very, very specialized and are in effect private clubhouses for their regular players. Had no luck in them, as all the residents want to talk about is the set of rules that 'the house' plays. Anything other then that gets no traction; example, Tower Games in South Minneapolis, where it's Warmachine and Warhammer 40K and nothing else. I've even had issues with trying to get them to order stuff for me from their suppliers - if it's not something for the two sets of rules, they won't even do a special order.

The other two possible venues are the game rooms at The Source and FFG's Event Center. The Source requires a booking ninety days in advance of the proposed date to reserve a table, and the reservation can be cancelled at any point if the store is running a promotion, tournament, or other store-related event. FFG prefers thirty days on bookings, but requires a $50 table fee to hold the table; they do not cancel, once they get the fee. Both places will certainly allow 'drop in' / 'pick-up games', but there is no certainty that there will be a table available when one arrives.

So, I am limited to Saturdays and Sundays. Maybe I should put up an ad:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]147[/ATTACH]
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 09, 2016, 02:24:01 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;902526
Despite your dislike...start with a one-off, like a convention scenario. Then hint you might continue it. But at first, the codeword is "no obligations", and you have to mean it.

Also, adopt the "we play with whoever shows up" model. It actually leads to improving the attendance, my empiric experience says;).
It seems many people are more likely to shaft the session when they know you'd cancel it, then when they know the other players would get to do stuff without them, and their character is going to pass that time in drunken stupor or fever due to an wound infection, or the like. It's important: no playing over what happened when they come for the next session-you just wake with a hangover, no memories, but the hangover passes quickly. The time that passed for everyone, passed for everyone. Period. The Referee has set his foot down, and won't budge:).

Agreed; it's how I run all my non-campaign games.

Part of my problem with conventions is the logistics involved. If I take anything more then my personal luggage, I have to drive - miniatures and scenery do not travel well - and my options are limited:

Con of the North - Twin Cities
Annual; 1 hour drive time; 2-3 hotel room nights; 400-500 attendees

Mage Con - Sioux Falls, South Dakota
Annual; 4 hour drive time; 3 hotel room nights; 300-400 attendees

GameHoleCon - Madison, Wisconsin
Annual; 4-5 hours drive time; 3 hotel room nights; 300-400 attendees

Gary Con - Lake Geneva, Wisconsin
Annual; 6 hours drive time; 5 hotel room nights; 900-1000 attendees

HMGS Great Lakes - Chicago, Illinois
Annual; 8 hours drive time; 3-4 hotel room nights; 400-500 attendees

I have a library of 'stock' games that are all packed up and ready to go; since I have limited room in the basement, I've got most of my scenery and terrain all packed up in plastic tubs - for any particular game scenario, pull tubs ABC and XYZ and you're all ready to load the van - instead of loading things into the house, it's out into the truck. The problem that I'm facing is that I can either do the logistics of setting up  and running the game / event or actually run the game itself; I just don't have the energy or stamina to do both. I found this out the hard way at a game I did at FFG's Event Center in June of 2013, and again at Gary Con in 2015.

If I had reliable and responsible help with the logistics, doing conventions would be quite possible. I don't have that help, and so doing conventions would be problematic.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 09, 2016, 02:26:59 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;902526
Pictures, Uncle. You don't need to scan your props.
Just tell them you use props, and make sure to upload them pictures.

Yes, very much so; when I was looking at doing a play-by-(e)mail campaign, I was assuming that all the Hlaka scouts had little digital cameras - like the two we actually have - and would be brining back photos of the areas that they were tasked to be looking at by the players. And I have lots of file photos of the collection, too, so this would be very doable.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 09, 2016, 02:34:43 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;902526
...VTT is actually heavy. That's why I play online, but not in VTT;). There are also forum games, which you can run from, more or less, any mobile device (if you can deal with the slow pace, and get a keyboard - otherwise the writing would be a chore).
With a laptop, this should be easy.

I don't have any mobile devices, sorry. My little Coby 'tablet' allows me to look at the web, but that's about it - I look at this thread over my lunch with it, for an example of how I use it. The laptop I have is my main computer here in the home office, and again I am limited to about a half-hour in my 'morning' before I go to work and then as long as I can stay awake after I get home after work - which is why my posts here usually get done between 1:00 p.m. and 1:30 p.m. local time, and then between 1:00 am and 2:00 am - 3:00 am on the weekdays.

I don't mind the pace of forum games; since I can only get online at certain times, it's not an issue.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 09, 2016, 04:59:45 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;902729
Breaking this down into sections, as I have some kind of long responses...



Agreed. This is the basis that I've invited people into my games over the years, and in the past it's worked very well. Currently, the issue is one of 'outreach'; because I work from 3:30 p.m. to midnight, Monday through Friday, I have very little opportunity to meet and talk to people. I've been out to the local gaming shops, but several of them are very, very specialized and are in effect private clubhouses for their regular players. Had no luck in them, as all the residents want to talk about is the set of rules that 'the house' plays. Anything other then that gets no traction; example, Tower Games in South Minneapolis, where it's Warmachine and Warhammer 40K and nothing else. I've even had issues with trying to get them to order stuff for me from their suppliers - if it's not something for the two sets of rules, they won't even do a special order.

The other two possible venues are the game rooms at The Source and FFG's Event Center. The Source requires a booking ninety days in advance of the proposed date to reserve a table, and the reservation can be cancelled at any point if the store is running a promotion, tournament, or other store-related event. FFG prefers thirty days on bookings, but requires a $50 table fee to hold the table; they do not cancel, once they get the fee. Both places will certainly allow 'drop in' / 'pick-up games', but there is no certainty that there will be a table available when one arrives.

So, I am limited to Saturdays and Sundays. Maybe I should put up an ad:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]147[/ATTACH]

Well, it might be harder then, though I must note that the sign is probably misleading, unless you're planning to run a Western....:)

Clubs where they only play two systems sound self-limiting, and a prime example of why I think non-gamers are your better bet.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;902733
Agreed; it's how I run all my non-campaign games.

Yes, but I was suggesting using one (orseveral) of those non-campaign games in your house, as an "open invitation" event. You don't need to transport your props, because they're already there. And if people like your style, they might try a campaign game, too, or they might recommend it to friends...:D

Quote from: chirine ba kal;902734
Yes, very much so; when I was looking at doing a play-by-(e)mail campaign, I was assuming that all the Hlaka scouts had little digital cameras - like the two we actually have - and would be brining back photos of the areas that they were tasked to be looking at by the players. And I have lots of file photos of the collection, too, so this would be very doable.

That's one problem solved, then.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;902735
I don't have any mobile devices, sorry. My little Coby 'tablet' allows me to look at the web, but that's about it - I look at this thread over my lunch with it, for an example of how I use it. The laptop I have is my main computer here in the home office, and again I am limited to about a half-hour in my 'morning' before I go to work and then as long as I can stay awake after I get home after work - which is why my posts here usually get done between 1:00 p.m. and 1:30 p.m. local time, and then between 1:00 am and 2:00 am - 3:00 am on the weekdays.

I don't mind the pace of forum games; since I can only get online at certain times, it's not an issue.

You don't need mobile devices - they're actually the absolute worst choice, and my point was merely that even the absolute worst choice is sufficient.
If you don't mind the pace, you're halfway there;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 09, 2016, 07:52:52 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;902735
I don't have any mobile devices, sorry. My little Coby 'tablet' allows me to look at the web, but that's about it - I look at this thread over my lunch with it, for an example of how I use it. The laptop I have is my main computer here in the home office, and again I am limited to about a half-hour in my 'morning' before I go to work and then as long as I can stay awake after I get home after work - which is why my posts here usually get done between 1:00 p.m. and 1:30 p.m. local time, and then between 1:00 am and 2:00 am - 3:00 am on the weekdays.

I don't mind the pace of forum games; since I can only get online at certain times, it's not an issue.


Chirine,

Well, I'm going to throw it out. If you're willing to run a PBEM game, or some other type of electronic game, I'm onboard if you want players. In fact I'm sure there are a few others on this thread who would probably be interested as well. What do you think?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on June 09, 2016, 12:59:33 PM
I've had good luck using http://rpol.net/ however they have limited direct support for graphics.
You need an off site storage address if you are going to use a lot of images.

Since most games there are text based that is not usually a problem however, with your wealth of miniatures and possible pictures it may be a concern.
(If you don't have a photo share site you can link to.)

It has the advantage over an open forum of controlling viewing and limiting unsolicited posts.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 09, 2016, 03:31:15 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;902729

[ATTACH=CONFIG]147[/ATTACH]

Sounds great!  Where do I sign up?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 09, 2016, 05:24:01 PM
Just out curiosity, how big would a typical N'she get? I know that they are 10 HD in EPT stats, but I'm not sure if they would be considered M or L sized. I was thinking of sculpting one or two as the party will be coming up against them soon.
I've used the old Ral Partha Slimes and Puddings miniatures in the past, but these are really only good for representing N'she which are forming, IMO, and honestly they are somewhat old hat for the guys who've seen them before. What proxies did you use for these critters in Ye Olden Tymes?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 09, 2016, 05:33:42 PM
One more miniatures question. Seeing as how it's almost impossible to get Ssu or Hluss minis, how big would they be in 25 or 28mm: i.e., height and width? Are then any contemporary miniatures, say from Reaper or GW, that would be good for size comparison? I've decided to give these a go as well as the N'she. I created some wire armatures for my Ssu, but I'm not sure if these are too small or big, and I'd like to get the size right before applying any epoxy putty to them.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 10, 2016, 02:35:35 AM
From AsenRG:
Well, it might be harder then, though I must note that the sign is probably misleading, unless you're planning to run a Western....:)

It was intended as humor; I'd use very different copy for the real thing. :)

Clubs where they only play two systems sound self-limiting, and a prime example of why I think non-gamers are your better bet.

Agreed. Wholeheartedly!

Yes, but I was suggesting using one (or several) of those non-campaign games in your house, as an "open invitation" event. You don't need to transport your props, because they're already there. And if people like your style, they might try a campaign game, too, or they might recommend it to friends...:D

Good thought; we're tried that. Nobody has shown any interest. It's either game at the FLGS or the local convention, or nothing.

That's one problem solved, then.

My thought was to run the thing in classic Tony Bath fashion, with the players sending me their instructions and me sending back the what happens along with photos; there would be the option of live games, done via the Missus' smart phone, with players from all over and possibly a 'house team'.

You don't need mobile devices - they're actually the absolute worst choice, and my point was merely that even the absolute worst choice is sufficient.
If you don't mind the pace, you're halfway there;).


Understood. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 10, 2016, 02:40:39 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;902752
Chirine,

Well, I'm going to throw it out. If you're willing to run a PBEM game, or some other type of electronic game, I'm onboard if you want players. In fact I'm sure there are a few others on this thread who would probably be interested as well. What do you think?

Shemek.

Sure, understood. My thought was to run a classic Tony Bath-style meta game, just like Phil did, with the players all having roles in the various groups in the area - this would be based around the Fortress Chalukolumel micro-campaign that Phil had worked up for us but never got the chance to run. I have all of my notes from that, as well as the expanded map, so running it would be a snap and I think a lot of fun.

Here's a view of the map:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-O6iPfbjw1yo/VZIdN8qoxyI/AAAAAAAABmY/suutO6IMXpk/s1600/DSC00033.JPG (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-O6iPfbjw1yo/VZIdN8qoxyI/AAAAAAAABmY/suutO6IMXpk/s1600/DSC00033.JPG)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 10, 2016, 02:42:30 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;902815
Sounds great!  Where do I sign up?

Right her, me lad; a shilling a day and all the penguins you can eat. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 10, 2016, 02:46:54 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;902828
Just out curiosity, how big would a typical N'she get? I know that they are 10 HD in EPT stats, but I'm not sure if they would be considered M or L sized. I was thinking of sculpting one or two as the party will be coming up against them soon.
I've used the old Ral Partha Slimes and Puddings miniatures in the past, but these are really only good for representing N'she which are forming, IMO, and honestly they are somewhat old hat for the guys who've seen them before. What proxies did you use for these critters in Ye Olden Tymes?

Shemek.

Depends on the size of the miniature. I'd lean to the 'Large' size, as these are pretty fearsome critters to have to face. I think Reaper has a 'Water Elemental' done in translucent vinyl in their Bones line, and I'd use that to give the players a scare.

Back in the day? A bit of Saran Wrap, if I recall. We really didn't have much else.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 10, 2016, 02:52:00 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;902832
One more miniatures question. Seeing as how it's almost impossible to get Ssu or Hluss minis, how big would they be in 25 or 28mm: i.e., height and width? Are then any contemporary miniatures, say from Reaper or GW, that would be good for size comparison? I've decided to give these a go as well as the N'she. I created some wire armatures for my Ssu, but I'm not sure if these are too small or big, and I'd like to get the size right before applying any epoxy putty to them.

Shemek.

Grey Ssu are human-sized; Black Ssu a little bigger. (I use a 25mm x 25mm base size for both.) Scale to your figures, as they do vary. Hlyss are Ahoggya-sized on the ground, but as tall as a human. 40mm base for them. Reaper makes a number of 'giant insects', and these are pretty good for comparison purposes.

Have you tried a web search for the lovely paper miniatures that Amanda Dee (as 'Talisanta') posted as free downloads a while back? Likewise, have you tried Howard Fielding of The Tekumel Project? He might have something going.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 10, 2016, 06:45:20 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;902910
Sure, understood. My thought was to run a classic Tony Bath-style meta game, just like Phil did, with the players all having roles in the various groups in the area - this would be based around the Fortress Chalukolumel micro-campaign that Phil had worked up for us but never got the chance to run. I have all of my notes from that, as well as the expanded map, so running it would be a snap and I think a lot of fun.

Here's a view of the map:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-O6iPfbjw1yo/VZIdN8qoxyI/AAAAAAAABmY/suutO6IMXpk/s1600/DSC00033.JPG (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-O6iPfbjw1yo/VZIdN8qoxyI/AAAAAAAABmY/suutO6IMXpk/s1600/DSC00033.JPG)


When do we start?:p

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 10, 2016, 06:53:31 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;902913
Depends on the size of the miniature. I'd lean to the 'Large' size, as these are pretty fearsome critters to have to face. I think Reaper has a 'Water Elemental' done in translucent vinyl in their Bones line, and I'd use that to give the players a scare.

Back in the day? A bit of Saran Wrap, if I recall. We really didn't have much else.


Cool. Never thought of using Saran Wrap. That would would probably be the best choice with my group. I know we used to use beer caps, pop cans and anything else we could find as proxies, when needed, back in "our day".  I'll take a look at that Reaper Water Elemental.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 10, 2016, 07:02:49 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;902914
Grey Ssu are human-sized; Black Ssu a little bigger. (I use a 25mm x 25mm base size for both.) Scale to your figures, as they do vary. Hlyss are Ahoggya-sized on the ground, but as tall as a human. 40mm base for them. Reaper makes a number of 'giant insects', and these are pretty good for comparison purposes.

Have you tried a web search for the lovely paper miniatures that Amanda Dee (as 'Talisanta') posted as free downloads a while back? Likewise, have you tried Howard Fielding of The Tekumel Project? He might have something going.

Good to know. Looks like I'm on the right track. I built the armatures to scale with the dimensions given in the Sourcebook, but they seemed kind of small to my eyes. Unfortunately, Howard doesn't have any Ssu or Hlyss. If memory serves, the only baddies he has are the Hlutrgu (sp?). I think I remember Reaper selling a giant scorpion which might be a good fit for a Hlyss. Will have to check that out as well. I plan to go to a game store downtown that has a huge selection of minis, including tonnes of fantasy stuff. We'll see if they have what I need.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on June 10, 2016, 09:00:08 AM
They don't have enough legs but you could use Alien Xenomorphs for Hlyss. Prodos games has a line of them I think.

I actually described the Hlyss to the young group I have as Aliens that use weapons and magic. That scared them plenty.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on June 10, 2016, 01:17:50 PM
You could try Rapier miniatures: http://www.rapierminiatures.co.uk/page/Range/28mm_Beastmen.html

They do some "not Runequest" scorpion men that might serve.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 10, 2016, 02:55:52 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));902960
You could try Rapier miniatures: http://www.rapierminiatures.co.uk/page/Range/28mm_Beastmen.html

They do some "not Runequest" scorpion men that might serve.


Thanks for the suggestions. Those Scorpion men look quite good I'll have to see about getting some.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 11, 2016, 02:15:02 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;902933
When do we start?:p

Shemek

Let me get organized, and I'll do an announcement. Pete's funeral and my niece's graduation are at the top of the list, right now, but things should calm down in a couple of days... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 11, 2016, 02:18:22 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;902934
Cool. Never thought of using Saran Wrap. That would would probably be the best choice with my group. I know we used to use beer caps, pop cans and anything else we could find as proxies, when needed, back in "our day".  I'll take a look at that Reaper Water Elemental.

Shemek.

Saran Wrap was nice, as it could be flat to represent a Nshe travelling, and then balled up to represent it when standing upright. And these days, you can even get the stuff in colors, too.

I do like the 'water elemental'; I have the flame one - no surprise there, I suppose - and I'll probably get the water one shortly. While I'm not fond of the vinyl that the Bones line uses, I do really like the translucent figures.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 11, 2016, 02:19:20 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;902936
Good to know. Looks like I'm on the right track. I built the armatures to scale with the dimensions given in the Sourcebook, but they seemed kind of small to my eyes. Unfortunately, Howard doesn't have any Ssu or Hlyss. If memory serves, the only baddies he has are the Hlutrgu (sp?). I think I remember Reaper selling a giant scorpion which might be a good fit for a Hlyss. Will have to check that out as well. I plan to go to a game store downtown that has a huge selection of minis, including tonnes of fantasy stuff. We'll see if they have what I need.

Shemek.

Also look for cheap plastic / rubber scorpions - big insects are the key to this.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 11, 2016, 02:19:51 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;902947
They don't have enough legs but you could use Alien Xenomorphs for Hlyss. Prodos games has a line of them I think.

I actually described the Hlyss to the young group I have as Aliens that use weapons and magic. That scared them plenty.

Very good!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 11, 2016, 02:21:29 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;902967
Thanks for the suggestions. Those Scorpion men look quite good I'll have to see about getting some.

Shemek.

Agreed! I like these. I think Eureka also sells something similar, in a line that they produced that was originally from Shadowforge - I think...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on June 11, 2016, 07:32:54 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;903030
Agreed! I like these. I think Eureka also sells something similar, in a line that they produced that was originally from Shadowforge - I think...

Not so useful for Tekumel, but their Ducks are also quite nice...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 11, 2016, 08:58:27 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;903026
Let me get organized, and I'll do an announcement. Pete's funeral and my niece's graduation are at the top of the list, right now, but things should calm down in a couple of days... :)

Understood.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 11, 2016, 09:00:40 AM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));903061
Not so useful for Tekumel, but their Ducks are also quite nice...

"Why a duck?" *

Shemek.


*1 xp for the reference.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 11, 2016, 11:27:16 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;902752
Chirine,

Well, I'm going to throw it out. If you're willing to run a PBEM game, or some other type of electronic game, I'm onboard if you want players. In fact I'm sure there are a few others on this thread who would probably be interested as well. What do you think?

Shemek.
You wouldn't be the only one, too...:)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;902909
From AsenRG:
Well, it might be harder then, though I must note that the sign is probably misleading, unless you're planning to run a Western....:)

It was intended as humor; I'd use very different copy for the real thing. :)
Ah OK, I thought it's something you have considered and prepared the thing...

Quote
Clubs where they only play two systems sound self-limiting, and a prime example of why I think non-gamers are your better bet.

Agreed. Wholeheartedly!
Someone recently asked me how many settings and systems I would consider "allowing" in my home games. What does that even mean, I'm not sure. I don't allow systems and settings, I pick them according to the campaign I want to have...
Persuade me that a system that I hate would improve the game, and I'd consider running it; persuade me that a setting I hate would make the best locale for a campaign I want to run, and I'd learn it. Neither of these things is a religion, or a political stance.
Alas, some people seem to swear by their d20, or something;). I know people like that in real life, and they still seem weird.
Ah well, sorry you clashed with this kind of people.


Quote
Yes, but I was suggesting using one (or several) of those non-campaign games in your house, as an "open invitation" event. You don't need to transport your props, because they're already there. And if people like your style, they might try a campaign game, too, or they might recommend it to friends...:D

Good thought; we're tried that. Nobody has shown any interest. It's either game at the FLGS or the local convention, or nothing.
...you're still talking about gamers, right?
I've found it easier to teach non-gamers to play, or non-RPG gamers to try RPGs, than to get some RPG gamers to try something new. Why is that, is beyond me.
But I know I've changed my recruiting strategy to appeal to non-gamers as much as possible.

As an example of how that works, the campaign we started recently has paused due to the GM needing to leave the city this week-end.
So of course, I'm running a one-shot. And we'll have two new players who have never played RPGs, courtesy of my younger sister. One of them comes with her boyfriend, who has played RPGs, and claims to know me, though I honestly don't remember him by name. Anyway, he's requested help in trying to "convert" her over to RPGs, I guess he'd like to play with her more often...:D
Of course, I'm always glad to help:p.

Thing is, something like that is a situation that would be beneficial to you, as well. The problem is at the beginning.
Once you create a network of people that know "an afternoon at Chirine's house" will be fun, you have a big pool of potential players. And you're the spider in the center of the network.
The work is until you manage to weave the big net... I can only wish you luck in passing the initial hurdle.
Maybe Facebook could help? Much as I dislike the asocial media, sometimes a page for gaming meet-ups in your home city would have a person or two who don't like the games that are being most commonly played, and might look into your games.
Then you report about the games you're having. And see whether other people would be interested...

...or, if all else fails, run a Pathfinder game at your home, and see how that goes:D. Kingmaker has the reputation that it's almost like a hexcrawl (never tried it, so can't confirm).

Quote
That's one problem solved, then.

My thought was to run the thing in classic Tony Bath fashion, with the players sending me their instructions and me sending back the what happens along with photos; there would be the option of live games, done via the Missus' smart phone, with players from all over and possibly a 'house team'.
I've played something like that before Internet. We used to send them by post, and the thing was being run by local gamebook authors.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;902910
Sure, understood. My thought was to run a classic Tony Bath-style meta game, just like Phil did, with the players all having roles in the various groups in the area - this would be based around the Fortress Chalukolumel micro-campaign that Phil had worked up for us but never got the chance to run. I have all of my notes from that, as well as the expanded map, so running it would be a snap and I think a lot of fun.

Here's a view of the map:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-O6iPfbjw1yo/VZIdN8qoxyI/AAAAAAAABmY/suutO6IMXpk/s1600/DSC00033.JPG (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-O6iPfbjw1yo/VZIdN8qoxyI/AAAAAAAABmY/suutO6IMXpk/s1600/DSC00033.JPG)
Sign me up, please;)!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;903026
Let me get organized, and I'll do an announcement. Pete's funeral and my niece's graduation are at the top of the list, right now, but things should calm down in a couple of days... :)
Sure thing, real life always comes first!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 11, 2016, 02:02:05 PM
I found this online. A good image for a Ssu?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]164[/ATTACH]


Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 11, 2016, 02:37:33 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;903070
"Why a duck?" *

Shemek.


*1 xp for the reference.

"There's my argument... restrict immigration!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on June 11, 2016, 02:52:42 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;903105
I found this online. A good image for a Ssu?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]164[/ATTACH]


Shemek.


Even worse, what you get from the unholy rites of the Ssu gods in their fowl temples...or from one of the more obsure rituals of the Society of the Emerald Radiance...

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 11, 2016, 02:55:31 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;902910
Sure, understood. My thought was to run a classic Tony Bath-style meta game, just like Phil did, with the players all having roles in the various groups in the area - this would be based around the Fortress Chalukolumel micro-campaign that Phil had worked up for us but never got the chance to run. I have all of my notes from that, as well as the expanded map, so running it would be a snap and I think a lot of fun.

Here's a view of the map:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-O6iPfbjw1yo/VZIdN8qoxyI/AAAAAAAABmY/suutO6IMXpk/s1600/DSC00033.JPG (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-O6iPfbjw1yo/VZIdN8qoxyI/AAAAAAAABmY/suutO6IMXpk/s1600/DSC00033.JPG)


Sounds great.  I'm assuming you'd be doing your old standard of "orders on one index card."  Amazing how that clarifies the mind and forces one to get to the point...

(Also, what's the "Legion of Farty Persons?")
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 12, 2016, 12:17:40 AM
I thought I would share some pics.

I finished sculpting my Nshe. I'm pretty happy with the results, although the picture is not the best. The Nshe is more translucent in person, but to be honest I don't mind if the critter has a little opacity. Now to get on with the Shunned Ones and the Ssu.
In the second picture I've included a recently finished miniature as a size comparison. This one is an old Ral Partha Chaos Warrior. I decided to make him a Warrior-Priest of Vihar, although I'm sure he would be fine as a Priest of Nyesset as well.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]169[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]168[/ATTACH]

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 12, 2016, 12:25:33 AM
Here's a detailed shot of the Warrior-Priest. Not a good pic. The shading and colour modulation is not really visible. Still need to base him, as he tends to fall over quite easily. I'll probably put him on a 20mm base. He's huge for a 25mm miniature, probably close to 7 scale feet. Although he doesn't "look" Pechani the armour has a Tekumel feel to it IMO. Maybe I'll use him as a Nluss?


[ATTACH=CONFIG]170[/ATTACH]

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 12, 2016, 12:39:47 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;903113
Sounds great.  I'm assuming you'd be doing your old standard of "orders on one index card."  Amazing how that clarifies the mind and forces one to get to the point...

(Also, what's the "Legion of Farty Persons?")

Yep. Keep it simple, keep it flowing.

I dunno; ask Bill Hoyt. That's his box of old Tekumel miniatures - I assume that it's the "Legion of Foreign Persons".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 12, 2016, 12:43:13 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;903169
Here's a detailed shot of the Warrior-Priest. Not a good pic. The shading and colour modulation is not really visible. Still need to base him, as he tends to fall over quite easily. I'll probably put him on a 20mm base. He's huge for a 25mm miniature, probably close to 7 scale feet. Although he doesn't "look" Pechani the armour has a Tekumel feel to it IMO. Maybe I'll use him as a Nluss?


[ATTACH=CONFIG]170[/ATTACH]

Shemek.

I like them both. The Bob Charette 'Chaos Warrior' figures do have that feel to them; I have a full legion of the pikemen, and additional units of the bowman, crossbowmen, and axemen. Very nice figures, and I'm delighted to se that they are back in production at the reborn Ral Partha!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 12, 2016, 02:34:57 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;903174
I like them both. The Bob Charette 'Chaos Warrior' figures do have that feel to them; I have a full legion of the pikemen, and additional units of the bowman, crossbowmen, and axemen. Very nice figures, and I'm delighted to se that they are back in production at the reborn Ral Partha!


Thank you. I didn't see them the last time I was looking at the "new" Ral Partha releases. I'll have to revisit the site.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on June 12, 2016, 02:51:35 PM
Iron Wind Metals has done two kickstarters to bring back old figures in new moulds.  The first one has delivered but the second hasn't.  Look on the online store under Chaos Wars not Fantasy Armies.  For me it's a really mixed bag.  I love the old figures and the old style but I let my collection go when I was getting into Warhammer and moving my collection up to 28mm.  On the other hand, outside of Reaper who are way too large, stylized and, exaggerated for my tastes the rpg figure options have always been a bit limited.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 13, 2016, 12:36:40 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;903070
"Why a duck?" *

Shemek.


*1 xp for the reference.


Hooray for Captain Spauding, the African Explorer!

(Both Ross Maker and Dave Wesely were there, today, and we discussed cannibalism in "Search for the Nile".)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 13, 2016, 12:38:03 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;903105
I found this online. A good image for a Ssu?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]164[/ATTACH]


Shemek.


Yeah, not bad. There's more on http://www.tekumel.com, too, I think.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 13, 2016, 12:39:58 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;903113
Sounds great.  I'm assuming you'd be doing your old standard of "orders on one index card."  Amazing how that clarifies the mind and forces one to get to the point...

(Also, what's the "Legion of Farty Persons?")

Yep. Just like in Ye Olden Dayes.

It's Bill Hoyt's box of miniatures; I'm assuming that it's supposed to be "Legion of Foreign Persons", but with Bill you never know.

EDIT: Whoops, sorry; I'd already replied to you.

It's been a very long and very tough day. Got up to the news from Orlando; all of our friends there have checked and are safe. Still waiting to hear about the friends of friends; some of them have not checked in. Went to Pete's visitation, and wound up talking to his family and friends for some three hours about him and his influence on gaming - and on me.

Pete was actually the first 'gamer' that I met here in the Twin Cites, at the Little Tin Soldier Shoppe back in the summer of '75, and he introduced me to people like Dave Arneson, Ross Maker, Dave Wesely, Fred Funk, and bunch of other people who were part of the local gaming crowd back then. I learned a lot about how to run games from Pete, and I can say that I still do it that way: fast, fun, and furious, with a lot of laughs along the way.

More tomorrow - I need to reply to Asen, for example, but I'm off to bed. Going to be a longish day tomorrow, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 13, 2016, 02:21:08 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;903307
Yeah, not bad. There's more on http://www.tekumel.com, too, I think.


Only a drawing of a Ssu's head. Unfortunately that site has become moribund. Nothing new on it for years. Too bad really. I remember when it was a fantastic interactive website, with lots of Phil's old articles and what not. Now the only substantive thing you can find are two fanzines, whose names escape me, and some old adventures/adventure ideas. It's at best a thumbnail sketch of Tekumel.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 14, 2016, 01:54:21 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;903361
Only a drawing of a Ssu's head. Unfortunately that site has become moribund. Nothing new on it for years. Too bad really. I remember when it was a fantastic interactive website, with lots of Phil's old articles and what not. Now the only substantive thing you can find are two fanzines, whose names escape me, and some old adventures/adventure ideas. It's at best a thumbnail sketch of Tekumel.

Shemek.

I think the site went quiet when the fan running it stopped being involved in the day to day running of the thing; in effect, it lost it's full-time curator. There was a transition off his server, I was told, and a lot of stuff that was on the old version of the site didn't seem to make it to the new one.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 14, 2016, 01:59:38 AM
Back home after a very long day. The actual funeral today was a lot tougher on everybody then the visitation yesterday was, for what are probably obvious reasons.

Pete was this amazing bundle of energy, and his passing has left a pretty big hole in a lot of lives.

Had lunch with everybody, and it kinda turned into 'Storytime With Uncle Chirine', about how we did things back in the day and how our antics shaped an industry. Talked to a lot of his gamers, and explained how we didn't worry all that much about 'The Rules' and made it up as we went along - and then took our notes and turned them into 'the rules'.

All in all, a good day, but a tough one. I'm exhausted, so it'll be tomorrow before I'm back with our regularly scheduled programming... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 16, 2016, 02:38:57 AM
From AsenRG:
Someone recently asked me how many settings and systems I would consider "allowing" in my home games. What does that even mean, I'm not sure. I don't allow systems and settings, I pick them according to the campaign I want to have...
Persuade me that a system that I hate would improve the game, and I'd consider running it; persuade me that a setting I hate would make the best locale for a campaign I want to run, and I'd learn it. Neither of these things is a religion, or a political stance.
Alas, some people seem to swear by their d20, or something;). I know people like that in real life, and they still seem weird.
Ah well, sorry you clashed with this kind of people.


Interesting. I tend to be focused on the setting, doing what I like, and then seeing if a set of rules will work with that setting.
Yeah; some of the OSR people I've dealt with are like this.

...you're still talking about gamers, right?
I've found it easier to teach non-gamers to play, or non-RPG gamers to try RPGs, than to get some RPG gamers to try something new. Why is that, is beyond me.
But I know I've changed my recruiting strategy to appeal to non-gamers as much as possible.


Yes. My problem is my work schedule, which pretty much isolates me from the rest of the world. Seeing non-gamers is actually pretty rare for me.

As an example of how that works, the campaign we started recently has paused due to the GM needing to leave the city this week-end.
So of course, I'm running a one-shot. And we'll have two new players who have never played RPGs, courtesy of my younger sister. One of them comes with her boyfriend, who has played RPGs, and claims to know me, though I honestly don't remember him by name. Anyway, he's requested help in trying to "convert" her over to RPGs, I guess he'd like to play with her more often...:D
Of course, I'm always glad to help:p.


Makes sense to me; what I need is a circle of people I can see socially.

Thing is, something like that is a situation that would be beneficial to you, as well. The problem is at the beginning.
Once you create a network of people that know "an afternoon at Chirine's house" will be fun, you have a big pool of potential players. And you're the spider in the center of the network.
The work is until you manage to weave the big net... I can only wish you luck in passing the initial hurdle.
Maybe Facebook could help? Much as I dislike the asocial media, sometimes a page for gaming meet-ups in your home city would have a person or two who don't like the games that are being most commonly played, and might look into your games.
Then you report about the games you're having. And see whether other people would be interested...


Good advice, here. I'll see what we can do.

...or, if all else fails, run a Pathfinder game at your home, and see how that goes:D. Kingmaker has the reputation that it's almost like a hexcrawl (never tried it, so can't confirm).

Ouch. I'm not sure I'd want to game under those conditions.

I've played something like that before Internet. We used to send them by post, and the thing was being run by local gamebook authors.

Same here' used to go through a lot of postcards for turn orders... :)

Sign me up, please;)!

Right; gotcha. :)

Sure thing, real life always comes first!

Thanks! It's been pretty intense, and pretty tough.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 16, 2016, 02:46:36 AM
Back in the saddle, as it were.

Finally got my platoon of Silver Suits onto bases and given their primer and silver, as a way to recover. Still have to do the ink wash to bring out the details, but that's easy. Got a big batch of lights and militia fixed up with base texture, too, and they look very nice - if I do say so myself. Also got the hatch inked onto the tubeway car, and now debating if I should do plating lines on the thing. Phil said that they were basically featureless spheres, as pr his fondness for Streamline Art Deco Moderne, but that looks more then a little off to our modern eyes; I've noticed that in the post-Star Wars generations people seem to expect seeing the plate joints and weathering/distressing that they saw in Episode IV. Back in the serials, the ships didn't have that kind of detailing, and Phil never really got into it himself with his scientifictional creations.

I dunno; it's an esthetic decision, and I don't make those either very often or with any degree of comfort. What do all of you think?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 16, 2016, 07:00:35 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;903645
Back in the saddle, as it were.

Finally got my platoon of Silver Suits onto bases and given their primer and silver, as a way to recover. Still have to do the ink wash to bring out the details, but that's easy. Got a big batch of lights and militia fixed up with base texture, too, and they look very nice - if I do say so myself. Also got the hatch inked onto the tubeway car, and now debating if I should do plating lines on the thing. Phil said that they were basically featureless spheres, as pr his fondness for Streamline Art Deco Moderne, but that looks more then a little off to our modern eyes; I've noticed that in the post-Star Wars generations people seem to expect seeing the plate joints and weathering/distressing that they saw in Episode IV. Back in the serials, the ships didn't have that kind of detailing, and Phil never really got into it himself with his scientifictional creations.

I dunno; it's an esthetic decision, and I don't make those either very often or with any degree of comfort. What do all of you think?

Good to see you back.
Personally, I would leave it smooth, like the "real" ones. If you want plating on it why don't you do what the air plane modellers do? On NFM planes, like the Cold War delta wings. They use different shades of silver and mask the panel lines with post it notes. Gives a very nice effect when done. Really subtle but noticeable, if that makes sense? You could also use Bare Metal Foil, like car guys use to chrome bumpers and do trim. They make a lot of different sheens, and by laying them parallel or tangentially you can get some nice results. You can pick this stuff up at any model store. Or as an alternative use kitchen aluminum foil and an adhesive, and a burnishing tool.
What type of paint did you use to finish the tubeway car? If it was enamel based you could try buffing and polishing it.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on June 16, 2016, 10:15:42 AM
You gotta show us your Silver Suits!

Another question: in Man of Gold, Harsan et al. are running around under Purdimal (is that city as much of a dump as it seems?) when they come across warrior standing  in the passage that turns out to be a mold covered skeleton and the mold is really deadly. Is that a naturally occurring mold or did that poor soul meet his end at the hand of a Ksarul priest? It is described as an ancient warrior and I thought that Ksarul's various Spells of Nasty Fungi died off in a couple of hours. Did you guys ever run into patches of stuff like that?

Also, as I have mentioned I have started a Tekumel game with a young group. My son read all the samples you have given of your book and in the grand tradition of 12 year olds everywhere, made his character as close to you as possible, even to the name. He claims his mace carrying flame worshipping priest named Chirine is named after his clan uncle, a famous hero of the Empire. You have a fan club!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 16, 2016, 10:35:50 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;903673
My son read all the samples you have given of your book and in the grand tradition of 12 year olds everywhere, made his character as close to you as possible, even to the name. He claims his mace carrying flame worshipping priest named Chirine is named after his clan uncle, a famous hero of the Empire. You have a fan club!
Awwww....
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on June 16, 2016, 12:26:29 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;903645
Back in the saddle, as it were.

Finally got my platoon of Silver Suits onto bases and given their primer and silver, as a way to recover. Still have to do the ink wash to bring out the details, but that's easy. Got a big batch of lights and militia fixed up with base texture, too, and they look very nice - if I do say so myself. Also got the hatch inked onto the tubeway car, and now debating if I should do plating lines on the thing. Phil said that they were basically featureless spheres, as pr his fondness for Streamline Art Deco Moderne, but that looks more then a little off to our modern eyes; I've noticed that in the post-Star Wars generations people seem to expect seeing the plate joints and weathering/distressing that they saw in Episode IV. Back in the serials, the ships didn't have that kind of detailing, and Phil never really got into it himself with his scientifictional creations.

I dunno; it's an esthetic decision, and I don't make those either very often or with any degree of comfort. What do all of you think?


Uncle,

Traditional of course. I'm old fashioned!!! I second seeing those Silver Suits.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 16, 2016, 02:31:42 PM
Quick shot from the bench - more tonight! :)

I'm having trouble loading the photo - I'll try something else, later on...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]184[/ATTACH]

Oooo! It worked!

Sorry about the mess on the workbench - I'm trying to sort out all of the figures that I'm never going to use (and thus will not get painted) as well as trying to get a few things done.

These troopers are plastic toy soldiers that an old friend gave me years ago, and which have been sitting in a work tray for far too long. Now, I have something for my Ssu with blasters to shoot at...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 16, 2016, 07:23:00 PM
I'd go with the smooth, featureless sphere.  Firstly, "stick with the source material," and secondly, "what's old is new again," it will wow everyone with how far out and futuristic it is.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 17, 2016, 02:19:58 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;903658
Good to see you back.
Personally, I would leave it smooth, like the "real" ones. If you want plating on it why don't you do what the air plane modellers do? On NFM planes, like the Cold War delta wings. They use different shades of silver and mask the panel lines with post it notes. Gives a very nice effect when done. Really subtle but noticeable, if that makes sense? You could also use Bare Metal Foil, like car guys use to chrome bumpers and do trim. They make a lot of different sheens, and by laying them parallel or tangentially you can get some nice results. You can pick this stuff up at any model store. Or as an alternative use kitchen aluminum foil and an adhesive, and a burnishing tool.
What type of paint did you use to finish the tubeway car? If it was enamel based you could try buffing and polishing it.

Shemek.


Good points, here. I am leaning in the direction of simply letting the thing speak for itself - it's the way Phil described it, which is good enough for me. It has enough dings and dents to give it some surface detail, as well as a look of some antiquity.

I love the Bare Metal stuff! Very easy to apply, and the results when you use the 'grain' in different directions are spectacular. I keep a pile of it 'in stock', as it's just way too useful! My gut feeling is that to use this stuff to best effect I need to get a second sphere, fill it, undercoat it, and then make templates with which to cut the foil to shape. I think it'd be a really nice model, but I'm also thinking that it would spend all of it's lifetime on the shelf unless I made Dire Warnings to players about handling the thing.

The current car is done with my last remaining can of very vintage Testor's 'Metallic Silver' spray paint. I kind of wanted to do this car with only what we would have had available back in the day (in the late 1970s and early 1980s) so as to give that 'period' look; I dunno - I have been kind of getting into a mindset of 'What would we have done if we'd done this back in..." and doing more and more 'vintage'-looking projects in the same style that Phil liked to do. It's like the Underworld tiles I recently did; Phil used to regale us with stories of how when he was a mere child, he'd beg cigarette papers off of all the adults so that he could use them in his model temples and palaces that he made. Hence my using the paper, glued to the MDF flats.

I think I'll leave this first car the way it is; sort of 'used', but 'vintage'. Does any of that make sense?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 17, 2016, 02:46:15 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;903673
You gotta show us your Silver Suits!

Another question: in Man of Gold, Harsan et al. are running around under Purdimal (is that city as much of a dump as it seems?) when they come across warrior standing  in the passage that turns out to be a mold covered skeleton and the mold is really deadly. Is that a naturally occurring mold or did that poor soul meet his end at the hand of a Ksarul priest? It is described as an ancient warrior and I thought that Ksarul's various Spells of Nasty Fungi died off in a couple of hours. Did you guys ever run into patches of stuff like that?

Also, as I have mentioned I have started a Tekumel game with a young group. My son read all the samples you have given of your book and in the grand tradition of 12 year olds everywhere, made his character as close to you as possible, even to the name. He claims his mace carrying flame worshipping priest named Chirine is named after his clan uncle, a famous hero of the Empire. You have a fan club!

I got the photo to load. :)

Yes; the Underworlds are full of horrible stuff like this, with a galaxy's worth of molds, fungus, and other horrors just waiting for an adventurer to trip over them or fall into it or breath in the spores or something. We learned the very hard way to look before we touched, as it's easy to avoid if you see it in time.

Oh. Wow. I had to read this twice, and started hyper-ventilating. My first thought was 'You let a twelve-year-old read "To Serve The Petal Throne"?!?!?' :eek: and I nearly fainted at the very idea. Then, my second thought was 'You let a twelve-year-old read "To Serve The Petal Throne..." and :cool: he didn't fall asleep instantly? I gather he liked my account of our adventures, and I guess I'd better get cracking on the rest of them. I am genuinely astonished, delighted, and amazed; I have no idea if the thing has any appeal or interest - and then I remembered what I'd written as the 'usual notes on the back cover':

"Tales for the Edification of Young Persons who wish to Embark on a Life of Adventure and Excitement, written down (in a fine scribal hand) by Lord Chirine ba Kal from his own experiences..."

Well. There we are. I am hugely touched by your son's enjoyment of the book, and I am delighted - and very deeply honored! - that he's following in the family traditions.

Wonderful; this is simply wonderful. I am very glad he's been able to enjoy Phil's creation as we did, and still do.

Luckily, he won't have my nose. Depending on what he wants to do for a career, I can have a few words with some people I know. What else are clan-uncles for, anyway? :)

Quick footnote: While the book is still very much a work-in-progress, I am getting there...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 17, 2016, 02:49:35 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;903644

Interesting. I tend to be focused on the setting, doing what I like, and then seeing if a set of rules will work with that setting.

Well, I consider it a balancing act between system, setting and style of play/genre the group wants. Think of a certain Indiana Jones movie where he meets a machine that depends on three points being in precise balance...

Quote
Yeah; some of the OSR people I've dealt with are like this.

Not just OSR. There are people like that everywhere.

Quote
Yes. My problem is my work schedule, which pretty much isolates me from the rest of the world. Seeing non-gamers is actually pretty rare for me.

Yeah, that's a problem with night shifts. I've been on such a regime 3 years, and didn't meet many people, either...

Quote
Good advice, here. I'll see what we can do.

Do it - if the game part fails, you still get a social circle out of it...:)

Quote
...or, if all else fails, run a Pathfinder game at your home, and see how that goes:D. Kingmaker has the reputation that it's almost like a hexcrawl (never tried it, so can't confirm).

Ouch. I'm not sure I'd want to game under those conditions.

I can understand why. I've said more than once that I'd probably choose to stop running games instead of adopting a system and/or setting that I dislike;).

Quote
Same here' used to go through a lot of postcards for turn orders... :)

We just sent letters.
It was a good thing we knew the authors, because the one who was doing the replies to my moves sometimes had trouble with my writing...

Quote

Thanks! It's been pretty intense, and pretty tough.

Sorry to hear that...

Quote from: Big Andy;903673
Also, as I have mentioned I have started a Tekumel game with a young group. My son read all the samples you have given of your book and in the grand tradition of 12 year olds everywhere, made his character as close to you as possible, even to the name. He claims his mace carrying flame worshipping priest named Chirine is named after his clan uncle, a famous hero of the Empire. You have a fan club!

That's so cute:D!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;903753
I'd go with the smooth, featureless sphere.  Firstly, "stick with the source material," and secondly, "what's old is new again," it will wow everyone with how far out and futuristic it is.

Let's listen to the good advice, Uncle - both counts of it are true, IMO.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 17, 2016, 02:50:02 AM
Quote from: Bren;903679
Awwww....


Yeah. What else can somebody say about this?

Although, we do still have those fifty blank T-shirts  in stock, and the Missus does have the stuff to do silk-screening with...

Maybe I should do a fan club. With Secret Handshakes, of course... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 17, 2016, 02:52:06 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;903697
Uncle,

Traditional of course. I'm old fashioned!!! I second seeing those Silver Suits.

H:0)

Same here. :) Photo of the very messy workbench in the next post... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 17, 2016, 03:00:07 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;903753
I'd go with the smooth, featureless sphere.  Firstly, "stick with the source material," and secondly, "what's old is new again," it will wow everyone with how far out and futuristic it is.

Yeah, I think so too. I'm starting to get into a mindset where I'm doing things with 'period' materials, so as to try to give people an impression of what we used to do 'back in the day', where everything was 'homemade' because all we had was imagination and basic modeling techniques. Going back into the parts bins and supply shelves has been a lot of fun - simply getting the workshop cleared out enough to do it was also a treat. (We had to move a lot of stuff in there when we got First and Second Daughters; had to make room for them to live in.) I am enjoying this, in the same way I enjoy my vintage Triang stuff.

And, I will admit, when I go to to the FLGS and see the huge display of the new 'Star Wars' and 'Star Trek' games and their attendant models, I'm left a little cold. Back in the day, we had to make all that - like my Death Star trench where most of us got vaporized - and we had a a lot of fun doing it. Now, just throw money at it, and you're done.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 17, 2016, 03:14:18 AM
From AsenRG:
Well, I consider it a balancing act between system, setting and style of play/genre the group wants. Think of a certain Indiana Jones movie where he meets a machine that depends on three points being in precise balance...

Oh, yes, very much so. Couldn't agree more.

Not just OSR. There are people like that everywhere.

I'd agree. It just seemed that there was a higher percentage of them in the OSR, back a few years ago when I first started to be active on the web. I was more then a little put off by it, but then I assumed that it was something in the water supply that made them do it.

Yeah, that's a problem with night shifts. I've been on such a regime 3 years, and didn't meet many people, either...

True. I was on a overnight shift from 2008 to 2015, and it was actually easier to deal with. I'm now on the 3:30 to midnight, and it's gotten a lot harder to have a life outside work.

Do it - if the game part fails, you still get a social circle out of it...:)

Good advice! I'm working on it! :)

I can understand why. I've said more than once that I'd probably choose to stop running games instead of adopting a system and/or setting that I dislike;).

Agreed. I love running Barsoom as a setting, but I have yet to find a set of rules that I can get and read. So, I just run the game like I usually do... :)

We just sent letters.
It was a good thing we knew the authors, because the one who was doing the replies to my moves sometimes had trouble with my writing...


Hah! :D Now, that's funny - and I'll bet the orders for a little mixed up, too... :)

Sorry to hear that...

Thanks; I wound up being the storyteller in the marketplace to entertain everybody and try to cheer them up a little. It seemed to work, but it was a difficult 'performance'.

That's so cute:D!

It is, isn't it? Got me back on my feet, it did... :)

Let's listen to the good advice, Uncle - both counts of it are true, IMO.

I think you're quite right; make two models, I think... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on June 17, 2016, 03:21:38 AM
As a store owner I vigorously approve of people throwing money at me.

Honestly, I love do it yourself stuff, but have you seen Rendra's new castle.  'cause DANG!

My castle is hand made Styrofoam and it's okay.  but DANG it Rendra!

You can always find people to take anything you're giving away for free but you never get any real commitment from them until they've spilt blood...errr...spent money.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 17, 2016, 03:43:37 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;903826
As a store owner I vigorously approve of people throwing money at me.

Honestly, I love do it yourself stuff, but have you seen Rendra's new castle.  'cause DANG!

My castle is hand made Styrofoam and it's okay.  but DANG it Rendra!

You can always find people to take anything you're giving away for free but you never get any real commitment from them until they've spilt blood...errr...spent money.


Oh, I do agree with you; I was just in the favorite FLGS on Saturday evening - I happen to be in the locale as I give Second Daughter a ride to work - and mentioned that I was looking for some out-of-the-ordinary stuff to use as Fiendish Devices for the Barsoomian air skiffs. Lo and behold, they had three packs of robot arms intended for a steampunk game of some sort, and these are perfect for the job. So, a sale!

I do like to support them; it's just that my needs are so specialized that it's often hard to find something that I can use...

It is a very cool castle indeed. I like the LEDs for the interior lights.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 17, 2016, 08:07:07 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;903828
Oh, I do agree with you; I was just in the favorite FLGS on Saturday evening - I happen to be in the locale as I give Second Daughter a ride to work - and mentioned that I was looking for some out-of-the-ordinary stuff to use as Fiendish Devices for the Barsoomian air skiffs. Lo and behold, they had three packs of robot arms intended for a steampunk game of some sort, and these are perfect for the job. So, a sale!

I do like to support them; it's just that my needs are so specialized that it's often hard to find something that I can use...

It is a very cool castle indeed. I like the LEDs for the interior lights.


This why I started scratch building a few years ago, and now I'm trying my hand at sculpting. I simply cannot find the minis I want, and not all proxies are good alternatives. Also, the only real game stores in the city are major treks down town which I prefer not to make unless I have to.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 17, 2016, 08:09:09 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;903711
Quick shot from the bench - more tonight! :)

I'm having trouble loading the photo - I'll try something else, later on...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]184[/ATTACH]

Oooo! It worked!

Sorry about the mess on the workbench - I'm trying to sort out all of the figures that I'm never going to use (and thus will not get painted) as well as trying to get a few things done.

These troopers are plastic toy soldiers that an old friend gave me years ago, and which have been sitting in a work tray for far too long. Now, I have something for my Ssu with blasters to shoot at...


I like these guys. What scale are they?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 17, 2016, 08:25:13 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;903816
Good points, here. I am leaning in the direction of simply letting the thing speak for itself - it's the way Phil described it, which is good enough for me. It has enough dings and dents to give it some surface detail, as well as a look of some antiquity.

I love the Bare Metal stuff! Very easy to apply, and the results when you use the 'grain' in different directions are spectacular. I keep a pile of it 'in stock', as it's just way too useful! My gut feeling is that to use this stuff to best effect I need to get a second sphere, fill it, undercoat it, and then make templates with which to cut the foil to shape. I think it'd be a really nice model, but I'm also thinking that it would spend all of it's lifetime on the shelf unless I made Dire Warnings to players about handling the thing.

The current car is done with my last remaining can of very vintage Testor's 'Metallic Silver' spray paint. I kind of wanted to do this car with only what we would have had available back in the day (in the late 1970s and early 1980s) so as to give that 'period' look; I dunno - I have been kind of getting into a mindset of 'What would we have done if we'd done this back in..." and doing more and more 'vintage'-looking projects in the same style that Phil liked to do. It's like the Underworld tiles I recently did; Phil used to regale us with stories of how when he was a mere child, he'd beg cigarette papers off of all the adults so that he could use them in his model temples and palaces that he made. Hence my using the paper, glued to the MDF flats.

I think I'll leave this first car the way it is; sort of 'used', but 'vintage'. Does any of that make sense?


This makes perfect sense to me. I think I might have a can of that in my stash as well.:D I know if you use a shinier base or prime coat, like black, before you spray the silver you can really give it a good buffing with an old T-Shirt and get a good shine. If you can get some of the old Testors Metallisers in a spray can (I really like Burnt Metal, and Jet Exhaust) the achievable results with a little elbow grease and a rag are out of this world.
Can't wait to see both of them, if you do a second one. You mentioned in an earlier post that you used wood filler as base to hold the paint. How do you apply it on to the sphere? Do you find that you have to do much sanding in order to smooth it out? I haven't had much luck with this stuff in the past so I'm curious how you use it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 17, 2016, 08:33:39 AM
Just a quick general question, or two, or three;). Asen used the Term OSR in a recent post. What exactly does this mean? Also, what is meant by a sandbox adventure? I know these are stupid questions, but it would seem a lot of new terminology has crept into the RPG lexicon since "my day", and not all the terms' meanings are self explanatory.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on June 17, 2016, 09:11:53 AM
Old School Rules or Old School Renaissence are the two usual readings of OSR and relate to rulesets that are a clone of, or very similar in mechanics to, the OD&D three books set of the 1e AD&D books.

Sandbox is a term used to denote a setting where the action is driven by players who are free to roam around and pick whatever hooks take their fancy rather than a raiilroaded plot line with little or no player input..
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 17, 2016, 09:44:30 AM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;903859
Old School Rules or Old School Renaissence are the two usual readings of OSR and relate to rulesets that are a clone of, or very similar in mechanics to, the OD&D three books set of the 1e AD&D books.

Sandbox is a term used to denote a setting where the action is driven by players who are free to roam around and pick whatever hooks take their fancy rather than a raiilroaded plot line with little or no player input..


Thank you for the clarification.:) My group and I never made it past 1st Ed.AD&D, and EPT.  What would be categorised as I wonder?
I guess all of my games are Sandbox. I never understood forcing players to  follow a specific, set path, plot line. This was my biggest beef with the old Dragonlance modules. Great story/background but the modules were ruined by their dogmatic approach to how they had to be played with the pregenerated characters. Boring, IMO.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on June 17, 2016, 01:22:39 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;903865
I never understood forcing players to  follow a specific, set path, plot line. This was my biggest beef with the old Dragonlance modules. Great story/background but the modules were ruined by their dogmatic approach to how they had to be played with the pregenerated characters. Boring, IMO.

Shemek

As you invest time and money in props and the extensive details of each NPCs and items in a planned adventure, there is a urge to not let all that go to waste as characters SQUIRREL!!
and run off in a completely different direction. With some rule sets it is easier to generate the details on demand but reusing props can be a challenge.

While I like characters to drive the adventure (keeps it interesting), I can feel for the people with a lot invested in their pre-planned adventure|s.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 17, 2016, 02:34:29 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;903886
As you invest time and money in props and the extensive details of each NPCs and items in a planned adventure, there is a urge to not let all that go to waste as characters SQUIRREL!!
and run off in a completely different direction. With some rule sets it is easier to generate the details on demand but reusing props can be a challenge.

While I like characters to drive the adventure (keeps it interesting), I can feel for the people with a lot invested in their pre-planned adventure|s.
=


I get it, and I'm not saying that you are "wrong", but for me, personally, as a DM I would sooner let the characters go where they will. This is not to say I haven't resorted to the occasional" nudge" now or then, it's just that I have always had a back story in my games that will continue to develop regardless of what the characters choose to do. It just didn't ever make sense for me to game in a world, or to use modules/scenarios that were bereft of independent choice. I think this was partially discussed a while back in an earlier post so no need to rehash all over again.  Besides, NPC's and props can always be recycled and used by in an another encounter, as is or modified.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 17, 2016, 08:13:46 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;903711

These troopers are plastic toy soldiers that an old friend gave me years ago, and which have been sitting in a work tray for far too long. Now, I have something for my Ssu with blasters to shoot at...


Astonishing what's been mass produced in plastic, isn't it?

Also, THAT is the game I want to play in!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 18, 2016, 01:59:35 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;903849
This why I started scratch building a few years ago, and now I'm trying my hand at sculpting. I simply cannot find the minis I want, and not all proxies are good alternatives. Also, the only real game stores in the city are major treks down town which I prefer not to make unless I have to.

Shemek.


Agreed about not being able to find just the right figure. I've been doing a lot of conversions over the years, mixing and matching parts to get the right look for the figure. I really miss the old Lamming line of medievals - they had different heads, so you could customize your helmets and crests with no problems. Open hands, too, and I used I don't know how many of their line of weapons over the years - Chirine's mace is a Lamming miniature, with a bit of drilling on the Old Guard casting. Used to use a lot of the Tekumel figures in various ways; we didn't have very many figures that could be used for PCs, so I have to make them out of either the Old Guard or Ral Partha figures. These days, I tend to use Crocodile Games' 'Wargods' figures, when I can get them, or some of the inexpensive Old Glory 'Ancients'. It all depends on what I can find, and how well it matched the artwork I have on file. Usually, I can get pretty close.

Understood about the trip into town; The Source is a good half-hour / forty-five minutes away from the house, and a bit of a haul given the traffic.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 18, 2016, 02:00:48 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;903850
I like these guys. What scale are they?

Shemek.


About 1.5 inches tall, so between 25mm and 28mm. 30mm bases, if that helps.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 18, 2016, 02:26:20 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;903856
This makes perfect sense to me. I think I might have a can of that in my stash as well.:D I know if you use a shinier base or prime coat, like black, before you spray the silver you can really give it a good buffing with an old T-Shirt and get a good shine. If you can get some of the old Testors Metallisers in a spray can (I really like Burnt Metal, and Jet Exhaust) the achievable results with a little elbow grease and a rag are out of this world.
Can't wait to see both of them, if you do a second one. You mentioned in an earlier post that you used wood filler as base to hold the paint. How do you apply it on to the sphere? Do you find that you have to do much sanding in order to smooth it out? I haven't had much luck with this stuff in the past so I'm curious how you use it.


Yep; I did the undercoat in satin black, and I think the result was what I wanted. (Picture below, if I can get it to load.) I'm keeping my fingers off this model for a while, to see what I think of it. I like it, so far; I think the clear Plexiglass base sets it off nicely. And the dings look like this car has seen a few adventurers; I'd be worried about the backstory behind the nice neat hole just above the hatch...

Yes, I used the Borden's wood filler; I like this stuff a lot more then the older style 'Plastic Wood' filler, as that stuff uses acetone as a solvent and it will dissolve most any plastic on contact. The Borden's is a water-based acrylic, and is as neutral as you are likely to get.

I generally do not apply it with a putty knife - it gets way too thick, and tends to shrink and crack as it dries when it's applied in a thick layer. I use a cheap 'chip brush' to paint it on, as you can thin it right down with water. It makes a great adobe finish, like what I did with Castle Tilketl, and works great on the open-cell foam I used for the tubeway car. I usually don't have to do a lot of sanding when I paint the stuff on - the coats are thin enough, and they just need a little touch-up when I want a really smooth surface. If it's adobe, then you want to leave it sort of textured as it looks a lot better.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]187[/ATTACH]

Here's the final result... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 18, 2016, 02:40:34 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;903865
Thank you for the clarification.:) My group and I never made it past 1st Ed.AD&D, and EPT.  What would be categorised as I wonder?
I guess all of my games are Sandbox. I never understood forcing players to  follow a specific, set path, plot line. This was my biggest beef with the old Dragonlance modules. Great story/background but the modules were ruined by their dogmatic approach to how they had to be played with the pregenerated characters. Boring, IMO.

Shemek


Yes, that was very helpful, and I'm sorry for not being more clear.

Back when I first started to interact with OSR people (about five-six years ago, now) I kept getting told that the various set of rules coming out of the movement were intended to simulate / replicate the way it was assumed / presumed that Dave Arneson, Gary Gygax, Phil Barker, etc. ran their games; the emphasis seemed to be on rules mechanics, both as a way to do this and - from what I got from various people - as a way to 'correct' the errors that it was felt had been made over time in the various games that came after these pioneers.

What baffled me was when I shared my experiences playing in those games, and how The Big Three ran the games that I was in. I was told that "No, no, it couldn't be that way!", as the assumption was that three guys had come up with a set of rules or mechanics that could be simply adopted in order to do 'OSR'-style play. I pointed out that for all intents and purposes that their style was 'Free Kriegspiel', more then anything else, with a healthy does of Braunstein mixed in. I was pretty astonished to hear about the 'railroady' games and game style, and then to be told that Phil's meta-game that ran in the background of our adventures was 'too railroady' and 'directed play'. From where we sat at the table, yes, there was an overarching meta-plot, ut we could do anything we really wanted to - very 'open sandbox'.

Fascinating.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 18, 2016, 02:44:08 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;903886
As you invest time and money in props and the extensive details of each NPCs and items in a planned adventure, there is a urge to not let all that go to waste as characters SQUIRREL!!
and run off in a completely different direction. With some rule sets it is easier to generate the details on demand but reusing props can be a challenge.

While I like characters to drive the adventure (keeps it interesting), I can feel for the people with a lot invested in their pre-planned adventure|s.
=


Fascinating insight. Never had any 'pre-planned' adventures, back in the day, and I still play that way. Yes, the meta-plot / meta-game is still running in the background; and any props, figures, maps, etc. are all based out of that meta-game. It's up to the players to take up the adventures on offer; I can think of a dozen plots / adventures Phil dangled in front of us that we didn't take up.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 18, 2016, 02:46:02 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;903912
Astonishing what's been mass produced in plastic, isn't it?

Also, THAT is the game I want to play in!

And can be gotten cheap in the dollar store, too. :)

Well, if you want to play THAT game, get a few people together next time you are in town, and I'll run it. You'll love the Ahoggya mercenaries in their powered armor and jump jets... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 18, 2016, 08:37:00 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;903958
Yep; I did the undercoat in satin black, and I think the result was what I wanted. (Picture below, if I can get it to load.) I'm keeping my fingers off this model for a while, to see what I think of it. I like it, so far; I think the clear Plexiglass base sets it off nicely. And the dings look like this car has seen a few adventurers; I'd be worried about the backstory behind the nice neat hole just above the hatch...

Yes, I used the Borden's wood filler; I like this stuff a lot more then the older style 'Plastic Wood' filler, as that stuff uses acetone as a solvent and it will dissolve most any plastic on contact. The Borden's is a water-based acrylic, and is as neutral as you are likely to get.

I generally do not apply it with a putty knife - it gets way too thick, and tends to shrink and crack as it dries when it's applied in a thick layer. I use a cheap 'chip brush' to paint it on, as you can thin it right down with water. It makes a great adobe finish, like what I did with Castle Tilketl, and works great on the open-cell foam I used for the tubeway car. I usually don't have to do a lot of sanding when I paint the stuff on - the coats are thin enough, and they just need a little touch-up when I want a really smooth surface. If it's adobe, then you want to leave it sort of textured as it looks a lot better.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]187[/ATTACH]

Here's the final result... :)

That looks amazing. I like the dings on the car's surface, it really adds character and gives it a worn look. After all, they are tens of thousands of years old! Next time I go to Home Depot or Lowe's I pick up some Borden's filler. I've never tried this one. I've used Elmer's and Lepage's before, but both were lacquer based, stinky, and hard to use. Kind of like Squadron's Green Stuff epoxy filler/putty. Thanks for the info.:)

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 18, 2016, 08:55:11 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;903959
Yes, that was very helpful, and I'm sorry for not being more clear.

Back when I first started to interact with OSR people (about five-six years ago, now) I kept getting told that the various set of rules coming out of the movement were intended to simulate / replicate the way it was assumed / presumed that Dave Arneson, Gary Gygax, Phil Barker, etc. ran their games; the emphasis seemed to be on rules mechanics, both as a way to do this and - from what I got from various people - as a way to 'correct' the errors that it was felt had been made over time in the various games that came after these pioneers.

What baffled me was when I shared my experiences playing in those games, and how The Big Three ran the games that I was in. I was told that "No, no, it couldn't be that way!", as the assumption was that three guys had come up with a set of rules or mechanics that could be simply adopted in order to do 'OSR'-style play. I pointed out that for all intents and purposes that their style was 'Free Kriegspiel', more then anything else, with a healthy does of Braunstein mixed in. I was pretty astonished to hear about the 'railroady' games and game style, and then to be told that Phil's meta-game that ran in the background of our adventures was 'too railroady' and 'directed play'. From where we sat at the table, yes, there was an overarching meta-plot, ut we could do anything we really wanted to - very 'open sandbox'.

Fascinating.


I'm not up with the current terminology at all. I've become the "old guy" over there. Man, when did that happen, and how did it happen so fast?? I don't understand the mindset of people who refute reliable sources simply because their accounts aren't what they think they should be. You were there, you gamed with all three of them, end of story! If you or the Glorious General can't speak with authority about Phil's games or Dave Arneson's games, or Gygax's games who can? To paraphrase Gronan: you can't cure stupid.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on June 18, 2016, 10:33:08 AM
I frequently have new GMs asking me how I can be so flexible and roll with what the players want.  That's the secret of course.  There's a world out there with great events in motion but how and if it impacts the players is really up to them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 18, 2016, 10:59:50 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;904015
I frequently have new GMs asking me how I can be so flexible and roll with what the players want.  That's the secret of course.  There's a world out there with great events in motion but how and if it impacts the players is really up to them.


Exactly. This is how I have always run my games.
Years ago, in my old game, the guys got banged up pretty bad, they wanted to train, do magical research, etc. All very valid and needed actions at the time. So they decided to lay low and hole up for about six weeks. No problem. We played out the training, research and what not. After a couple of weeks they started hearing rumours about strange events, in the East. Violent raids destroying whole villages, Ssu massing in unusually high numbers... Basically, although they were taking a break, the world was not. Their enemies fully exploited the party's inactivity, to their detriment.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 18, 2016, 02:00:29 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;903963
And can be gotten cheap in the dollar store, too. :)

Well, if you want to play THAT game, get a few people together next time you are in town, and I'll run it. You'll love the Ahoggya mercenaries in their powered armor and jump jets... :)

:D

Also, love the tubeway car.  As far as the surface blemishes, well, first off, see previous comment about all the nasty spores, mold, and fungus on Tekumel -- (can you say "mutated biological weapon"? Sure you can!) -- and secondly, we've established Ssu with blasters and Hlyss with lightning bringers... maybe that car has a colorful history!

(cue a few Millenium Falcon-style "scorch marks" here)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 18, 2016, 10:03:41 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;903998
That looks amazing. I like the dings on the car's surface, it really adds character and gives it a worn look. After all, they are tens of thousands of years old! Next time I go to Home Depot or Lowe's I pick up some Borden's filler. I've never tried this one. I've used Elmer's and Lepage's before, but both were lacquer based, stinky, and hard to use. Kind of like Squadron's Green Stuff epoxy filler/putty. Thanks for the info.:)

Shemek


Thank you! The dings are all from the thing lying around for too long; the open-cell foam is cheap, but very fragile. I'll probably break down and get a new sphere and do it right away, so as to have a 'clean' one for contrast.

Squadron's 'Green Stuff' is actually styrene plastic in an acetone-based paste, which is why it's so smelly and death to any styrene foam. The blue and yellow epoxy ribbon that you knead into the green putty is actually very 'neutral' on things.

Happy to be of help!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 18, 2016, 10:07:25 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;904003
I'm not up with the current terminology at all. I've become the "old guy" over there. Man, when did that happen, and how did it happen so fast?? I don't understand the mindset of people who refute reliable sources simply because their accounts aren't what they think they should be. You were there, you gamed with all three of them, end of story! If you or the Glorious General can't speak with authority about Phil's games or Dave Arneson's games, or Gygax's games who can? To paraphrase Gronan: you can't cure stupid.

Shemek.


Neither am I, which is why I keep asking what some might think are dumb questions. I am, to be honest, just baffled by it all - and by the intensity of the discussions. I was up at the 'Free RPG Day' event at the local FLGS, after I dropped Second Daughter off at work, and was sort of bemused by it all. Didn't understand much of what I was hearing, but that's a measure of how much gaming has evolved over the decades.

Still drew a blank with 'Barsoom', though, when I asked people about a good set of RPG rules for the setting.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 18, 2016, 10:08:37 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;904015
I frequently have new GMs asking me how I can be so flexible and roll with what the players want.  That's the secret of course.  There's a world out there with great events in motion but how and if it impacts the players is really up to them.


Yes, exactly. I've had people ask me the same question - how can I possibly deal with all the chaos?

I dunno; I just do it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 18, 2016, 10:10:02 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;904018
Exactly. This is how I have always run my games.
Years ago, in my old game, the guys got banged up pretty bad, they wanted to train, do magical research, etc. All very valid and needed actions at the time. So they decided to lay low and hole up for about six weeks. No problem. We played out the training, research and what not. After a couple of weeks they started hearing rumours about strange events, in the East. Violent raids destroying whole villages, Ssu massing in unusually high numbers... Basically, although they were taking a break, the world was not. Their enemies fully exploited the party's inactivity, to their detriment.

Shemek.

Well, yeah; the world keeps moving along, no matter what the players might be doing at this moment in history. What they do, may affect what will happen, but they do have to keep up with the flow... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 18, 2016, 10:12:33 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;904040
:D

Also, love the tubeway car.  As far as the surface blemishes, well, first off, see previous comment about all the nasty spores, mold, and fungus on Tekumel -- (can you say "mutated biological weapon"? Sure you can!) -- and secondly, we've established Ssu with blasters and Hlyss with lightning bringers... maybe that car has a colorful history!

(cue a few Millenium Falcon-style "scorch marks" here)

Given the number of times we had to fight our way back to the tubeway car, I'd be surprised if they didn't look all shot up. Think of all the repair droids that player-characters have been keeping in work all these centuries.

'Scorch marks'? Air brush time, then. :)
Title: Dark Fable - Temple of Set figures arrived...
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 18, 2016, 10:20:01 PM
And a packet was in today's mail; ten packs plus reward figures from Mike Burns and the latest Dark Fable Indiegogo:

[ooops. wrong photo. will reload.]

Top to bottom, left to right:

Reward Figures, including Prophet of Set,
Temple Guards I, Cultists I with Set figure, Cultists I with Cultist figure, Heroes, Temple Guards II,
Cultists III, Female Temple Guards, Serpent Braziers, Consort of Set, Temple Characters, Cultists IV,
Nubian Queen, Nubian King and Followers

I really like these; they match his Ancient Egyptians / Hollywood Aegyptus figures very nicely, and have a lot of what I call charm. More palace people and temple folks for games!!! :)
Title: Photo
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 18, 2016, 10:27:21 PM
Well, that didn't work. Let's try this...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]189[/ATTACH]
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 19, 2016, 03:35:06 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;904108
Yes, exactly. I've had people ask me the same question - how can I possibly deal with all the chaos?

I dunno; I just do it.

That's because you actually listen to people in order to process information, not just wait for them to stop talking so you can start.

That, plus making sure you have no preconceptions of what players "should" do, is all you need.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on June 19, 2016, 05:29:08 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;903826
As a store owner I vigorously approve of people throwing money at me.

Honestly, I love do it yourself stuff, but have you seen Rendra's new castle.  'cause DANG!

My castle is hand made Styrofoam and it's okay.  but DANG it Rendra!

You can always find people to take anything you're giving away for free but you never get any real commitment from them until they've spilt blood...errr...spent money.



Gah - I wish you hadn't told me about that tower...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 19, 2016, 07:39:18 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;903820
Yeah. What else can somebody say about this?

Although, we do still have those fifty blank T-shirts  in stock, and the Missus does have the stuff to do silk-screening with...

Maybe I should do a fan club. With Secret Handshakes, of course...

Can I learn the Secret Handshakes over Internet, and start a section of the club here, Uncle:)?
I've had the temerity to include Chirine in my games* already. That should count for something:D!

*Pretty safe, since my players don't try to kill NPCs as a goal in itself - unless the NPC makes it personal, which isn't Chirine ba Kal's style at all...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;903825
From AsenRG:
Well, I consider it a balancing act between system, setting and style of play/genre the group wants. Think of a certain Indiana Jones movie where he meets a machine that depends on three points being in precise balance...

Oh, yes, very much so. Couldn't agree more.

Well, we agree.

Quote
Not just OSR. There are people like that everywhere.

I'd agree. It just seemed that there was a higher percentage of them in the OSR, back a few years ago when I first started to be active on the web. I was more then a little put off by it, but then I assumed that it was something in the water supply that made them do it.

That doesn't sound entirely implausible...how concentrated are the OSR guys geographically;)?
Me, I think it's because people that weren't fanatics of some particular mechanics are more likely to switch to a new edition when it comes out. There have been like 3 new editions of D&D since then...

Quote
Yeah, that's a problem with night shifts. I've been on such a regime 3 years, and didn't meet many people, either...

True. I was on a overnight shift from 2008 to 2015, and it was actually easier to deal with. I'm now on the 3:30 to midnight, and it's gotten a lot harder to have a life outside work.

What can I say...if there's a way to deal with that, I haven't found it.

Quote
Do it - if the game part fails, you still get a social circle out of it...

Good advice! I'm working on it! :)

I'm sure you'll make it.

Quote
I can understand why. I've said more than once that I'd probably choose to stop running games instead of adopting a system and/or setting that I dislike.

Agreed. I love running Barsoom as a setting, but I have yet to find a set of rules that I can get and read. So, I just run the game like I usually do...

I've found that Savage Worlds works just fine - it's best for emulating exactly that kind of pulp stories...;)

Quote
We just sent letters.
It was a good thing we knew the authors, because the one who was doing the replies to my moves sometimes had trouble with my writing...


Hah! :D Now, that's funny - and I'll bet the orders for a little mixed up, too... :)

Well, they weren't exactly "orders". I chose to play a spy, not a general.
Somehow, I ended up with the most points, too!

Quote
Sorry to hear that...

Thanks; I wound up being the storyteller in the marketplace to entertain everybody and try to cheer them up a little. It seemed to work, but it was a difficult 'performance'.

Well, at least you made it. Other people might not have been able to rise to the occasion...

Quote
That's so cute!

It is, isn't it? Got me back on my feet, it did... :)

It is, undeniably - and as you said, not much more one can say about it...

Quote
Let's listen to the good advice, Uncle - both counts of it are true, IMO.

I think you're quite right; make two models, I think...

I'm always amazed with the number of your models - two more aren't that much for you, it seems...

Quote from: David Johansen;903826
As a store owner I vigorously approve of people throwing money at me.

Honestly, I love do it yourself stuff, but have you seen Rendra's new castle.  'cause DANG!

My castle is hand made Styrofoam and it's okay.  but DANG it Rendra!

You can always find people to take anything you're giving away for free but you never get any real commitment from them until they've spilt blood...errr...spent money.

Well, the problem is with store owners who refuse to bring something useful even when you order it, IME.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;903857
Just a quick general question, or two, or three. Asen used the Term OSR in a recent post. What exactly does this mean? Also, what is meant by a sandbox adventure? I know these are stupid questions, but it would seem a lot of new terminology has crept into the RPG lexicon since "my day", and not all the terms' meanings are self explanatory.

Shemek

Exactly what Hermes said, with a slight addition...

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;903859
Old School Rules or Old School Renaissence are the two usual readings of OSR and relate to rulesets that are a clone of, or very similar in mechanics to, the OD&D three books set of the 1e AD&D books.

Sandbox is a term used to denote a setting where the action is driven by players who are free to roam around and pick whatever hooks take their fancy rather than a raiilroaded plot line with little or no player input..

Well, sometimes OSR is used for games where the mechanics aren't similar, but emulate the playstyle of a particular edition.

For example, Epees et Sorcellerie, despite the name, emulates the earliest days of the hobby, focusing on the swords-and-sorcerie roots of it (and on mechanics with d6, like Chainmail - although it's different in application, I gather).
DCC does the same, but mixes S&S inspiration with weird fantasy, and that's even reflected in the mechanics (which use weirdly-shaped dice and actually manage to do something worthwhile with them. Most of the time).
Lamentations of the Flame Princess, on the other hand, emulates the sandbox style of the early hobby, and mixes in weird fantasy. The mechanics of LotFP are more or less standard D&D-style stuff, though.

Of course, good sandbox actually needs a background, which can limit your options at times. Some people think that's too limiting; I think they're running games in boring settings. The two fractions shall not see eye to eye any time soon, I predict...

Quote from: Greentongue;903886
As you invest time and money in props and the extensive details of each NPCs and items in a planned adventure, there is a urge to not let all that go to waste as characters SQUIRREL!!
and run off in a completely different direction. With some rule sets it is easier to generate the details on demand but reusing props can be a challenge.

While I like characters to drive the adventure (keeps it interesting), I can feel for the people with a lot invested in their pre-planned adventure|s.
=

I think those people just need a bigger "library" of props they can adapt to different locations.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;903959
Yes, that was very helpful, and I'm sorry for not being more clear.

Back when I first started to interact with OSR people (about five-six years ago, now) I kept getting told that the various set of rules coming out of the movement were intended to simulate / replicate the way it was assumed / presumed that Dave Arneson, Gary Gygax, Phil Barker, etc. ran their games; the emphasis seemed to be on rules mechanics, both as a way to do this and - from what I got from various people - as a way to 'correct' the errors that it was felt had been made over time in the various games that came after these pioneers.

What baffled me was when I shared my experiences playing in those games, and how The Big Three ran the games that I was in. I was told that "No, no, it couldn't be that way!", as the assumption was that three guys had come up with a set of rules or mechanics that could be simply adopted in order to do 'OSR'-style play. I pointed out that for all intents and purposes that their style was 'Free Kriegspiel', more then anything else, with a healthy does of Braunstein mixed in. I was pretty astonished to hear about the 'railroady' games and game style, and then to be told that Phil's meta-game that ran in the background of our adventures was 'too railroady' and 'directed play'. From where we sat at the table, yes, there was an overarching meta-plot, ut we could do anything we really wanted to - very 'open sandbox'.

Fascinating.

I think the guys who assume a "railroady/illusionist" style of play were basing it on the adventures that got published...and the first railroads appeared relatively early, anyway (Dragonlance, anyone). So a lot of people who started before I was born began with rather railroady campaigns...
(Other sources of railroading is from people trying to emulate some gamebooks, where you could have only one correct way to solve the adventure, and/or early computer games...)

Those that thought Phil's games were "railroady", well, probably just based that on accounts of game play. When game has happened in a certain way, it only has one direction. What is not readily available is how many other directions it might have gone in...;)

Quote from: David Johansen;904015
I frequently have new GMs asking me how I can be so flexible and roll with what the players want.  That's the secret of course.  There's a world out there with great events in motion but how and if it impacts the players is really up to them.

I just think about the structure of the setting and the structure of the NPCs' personalities. Once players actually do something, they crash into one and/or the other structure. The structures react by pushing back, or bending, or breaking and calling up for emergencies...and it all moves the Refereeing mill.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;904107
Neither am I, which is why I keep asking what some might think are dumb questions. I am, to be honest, just baffled by it all - and by the intensity of the discussions. I was up at the 'Free RPG Day' event at the local FLGS, after I dropped Second Daughter off at work, and was sort of bemused by it all. Didn't understand much of what I was hearing, but that's a measure of how much gaming has evolved over the decades.

Still drew a blank with 'Barsoom', though, when I asked people about a good set of RPG rules for the setting.

...hint, Uncle - next time try with John Carter's Mars. Even a lot of people who have read a couple books don't remember the name Barsoom, and many more have just watched the abomination of a movie. I think the name Barsoom was mentioned once in it, so of course, most people don't remember it.

A few might even be familiar with Mars games in the vein of John Carter...but those games avoid the name of Barsoom for IP reasons, just like the early hobbits and balrogs in D&D became halflings and balors;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;904127
That's because you actually listen to people in order to process information, not just wait for them to stop talking so you can start.

That, plus making sure you have no preconceptions of what players "should" do, is all you need.

Some people still need more explanation than that.
Which is why I wrote a whole damn column! From then on, I was able to just paste them a link...beats explaining it again and again, I'll tell ya!
https://www.rpg.net/columns/tricksforgms/tricksforgms2.phtml

(I'd add a few things today, but the core explanation I gave several years ago still holds, which pleases me).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Xanther on June 19, 2016, 11:11:51 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;903959
...
What baffled me was when I shared my experiences playing in those games, and how The Big Three ran the games that I was in. I was told that "No, no, it couldn't be that way!", as the assumption was that three guys had come up with a set of rules or mechanics that could be simply adopted in order to do 'OSR'-style play. I pointed out that for all intents and purposes that their style was 'Free Kriegspiel', more then anything else, with a healthy does of Braunstein mixed in. I was pretty astonished to hear about the 'railroady' games and game style, and then to be told that Phil's meta-game that ran in the background of our adventures was 'too railroady' and 'directed play'. From where we sat at the table, yes, there was an overarching meta-plot, ut we could do anything we really wanted to - very 'open sandbox'.

Fascinating.


Wow, I would have thought someone who directly played with Gary and Dave would have been listened to.
I had the same experience, being told by OSR or protectors of the true way who were still in diapers when started playing D&D and Traveler that the way we played was wrong, would lead to ruin, etc.  Certain folks would get down right demeaning and nasty about it.  Didn't matter that you could say knew of three campaigns that played that way for a decade with no ill effect, nor if you could give specific examples of how it all worked in play and how it did not work.  Found these were not really discussions but people just looking for facts to support their preconceptions and personal views.

'Free Kriegspiel' says it well if I understand the term, although everyone strove mightily to be consistent on their home rulings, which then became "house rules" to maintain consistency.

We particularly laughed at the "railroad" parts of modules that said something would happen no matter what the players did.  Really?  Ignored that BS right off.  Growing up in the late 70's and surviving the vilification of D&D as Satanic in the early 80's we were going to do what made sense to us.  And these "railroad" instructions we thought were just poor writing.

Now a "meta-game" background, without it your world is just lifeless and 2D IMHO.  The world should always have something it's doing and going to do barring PCs mucking it all up.  And right with you, all the campaigns I've ever ran or played in it was open, you didn't need to engage with any of the world's plots or even go to a particular dungeon etc.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Xanther on June 19, 2016, 11:26:24 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;904139


...

Some people still need more explanation than that.
Which is why I wrote a whole damn column! From then on, I was able to just paste them a link...beats explaining it again and again, I'll tell ya!
https://www.rpg.net/columns/tricksforgms/tricksforgms2.phtml

(I'd add a few things today, but the core explanation I gave several years ago still holds, which pleases me).

Love your explanation.  I live for those moments as a player and GM when the dice go wonky.  It's that aspect of unpredictability that forces you to rise to the occasion and come up with a "story" to fit in the improbable that makes it fun.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on June 19, 2016, 11:50:58 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;904139
Well, the problem is with store owners who refuse to bring something useful even when you order it, IME.


The problem there is that gaming companies have minimum orders ranging from $300 (Battle Front) to $7000 (Games Workshop's Store Starter Bundle after that it was $500 / week last time I checked) if you want a retail discount.  Personally I mostly order direct because the distributor I have is awful when it comes to rpgs and miniatures.  But with a low volume, low overhead hole in the wall store (you know that dark and dingy store people bitch about, that's my store) I can't afford to order $500 of stuff so you can get $50 and leave me stuck with $450.  The distributors are in the same boat.  They don't want to support rpgs because they still have warehouses full of d20 boom supplements for which they can't get core books anymore.  I do try.  I eventually managed to sell off all the Alls Quiet On The Martian Front stuff I got stuck with when the company went under and the fans set up an online trading post.  But stores often lack the capital to chase special orders that they can't get from their distributors.  And if their distributor is anything like mine, you have to pre-order most rpg stuff months in advance if you ever want to see it because if it doesn't say D&D they aren't ordering it without you committing to buy it.

http://www.neutralgroundgames.com
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 19, 2016, 06:51:51 PM
Gah!  DISTRIBUTORS!  Don't talk to me about distributors!  Hate them or despise them, you can't ignore them!

In the mid 80s you didn't get direct orders enough to matter, everything was from distributors, and the bastards kept raising not only their minimum order from retailers but the percentage from manufacturers.  When the retailer gets 40% and the distributor wants 15% plus 2% if paid in 30 days an an EXTRA 2% for immediate payment, you're scraping for damn pennies.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on June 20, 2016, 12:05:15 AM
Years ago I came up with a scheme to go around the traditional distribution system.  Demo teams would sell stock to the stores and make the distributor's cut thus allowing them to actually make some money promoting games.

It got dubbed the Amway of gaming somewhere.  Recently Prodos Games started experimenting with a similar scheme.  I'll be very interested to see how it goes.

Personally it's a two way street.  Distributors need to be able to sell the products in their warehouses and I'm afraid that's going to require a very different business model.  I'm seriously considering getting a 3D printer and a good laser printer that can make booklets for the store.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 20, 2016, 01:43:04 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;904127
That's because you actually listen to people in order to process information, not just wait for them to stop talking so you can start.

That, plus making sure you have no preconceptions of what players "should" do, is all you need.


Oh. Yeah, I guess you're right. No idea how I learned to do it; maybe just experience and good teachers...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 20, 2016, 01:56:42 AM
From AsenRG:
Can I learn the Secret Handshakes over Internet, and start a section of the club here, Uncle:)?
I've had the temerity to include Chirine in my games* already. That should count for something:D!

*Pretty safe, since my players don't try to kill NPCs as a goal in itself - unless the NPC makes it personal, which isn't Chirine ba Kal's style at all...


We'll work on it. I'll think of something; I always do.

Nope, it was really never personal - at least for the major stuff - as I always tried to keep it professional.

That doesn't sound entirely implausible...how concentrated are the OSR guys geographically;)?
Me, I think it's because people that weren't fanatics of some particular mechanics are more likely to switch to a new edition when it comes out. There have been like 3 new editions of D&D since then...


No idea; they seem to mostly be an Internet thing.

Well, they weren't exactly "orders". I chose to play a spy, not a general.
Somehow, I ended up with the most points, too!


'Instructions', then... :)

I'm always amazed with the number of your models - two more aren't that much for you, it seems...
No, not really. I just like making stuff, and I guess I'm reasonably good at it.

Well, the problem is with store owners who refuse to bring something useful even when you order it, IME.

Yep. I gave up on trying to do special orders a long time ago. Now, it's all via the Internet with direct orders.

Well, sometimes OSR is used for games where the mechanics aren't similar, but emulate the playstyle of a particular edition.

For example, Epees et Sorcellerie, despite the name, emulates the earliest days of the hobby, focusing on the swords-and-sorcerie roots of it (and on mechanics with d6, like Chainmail - although it's different in application, I gather).
DCC does the same, but mixes S&S inspiration with weird fantasy, and that's even reflected in the mechanics (which use weirdly-shaped dice and actually manage to do something worthwhile with them. Most of the time).
Lamentations of the Flame Princess, on the other hand, emulates the sandbox style of the early hobby, and mixes in weird fantasy. The mechanics of LotFP are more or less standard D&D-style stuff, though.

Of course, good sandbox actually needs a background, which can limit your options at times. Some people think that's too limiting; I think they're running games in boring settings. The two fractions shall not see eye to eye any time soon, I predict...


Oh, OK; this explains a lot for me - thank you! :)

I think those people just need a bigger "library" of props they can adapt to different locations.

I think so too - more 'generic' ones, maybe...

I think the guys who assume a "railroady/illusionist" style of play were basing it on the adventures that got published...and the first railroads appeared relatively early, anyway (Dragonlance, anyone). So a lot of people who started before I was born began with rather railroady campaigns...
(Other sources of railroading is from people trying to emulate some gamebooks, where you could have only one correct way to solve the adventure, and/or early computer games...)


True; there's a lot of emphasis on texts, from what i've seen, and not much on direct experience.

Those that thought Phil's games were "railroady", well, probably just based that on accounts of game play. When game has happened in a certain way, it only has one direction. What is not readily available is how many other directions it might have gone in...;)

I think it's based off the accounts of the game play out at Phil's in the 1990s; very few people know, based on the mythology out on the Internet, about the games in the late 1970s and 1980s. Our time with Phil was very free-form, very 'open sandbox'. If that changed later, I have no really good data on the subject.

I just think about the structure of the setting and the structure of the NPCs' personalities. Once players actually do something, they crash into one and/or the other structure. The structures react by pushing back, or bending, or breaking and calling up for emergencies...and it all moves the Refereeing mill.

Exactly. The meta-game keep providing new possibilities for adventures.

...hint, Uncle - next time try with John Carter's Mars. Even a lot of people who have read a couple books don't remember the name Barsoom, and many more have just watched the abomination of a movie. I think the name Barsoom was mentioned once in it, so of course, most people don't remember it.

A few might even be familiar with Mars games in the vein of John Carter...but those games avoid the name of Barsoom for IP reasons, just like the early hobbits and balrogs in D&D became halflings and balors;).


I tried that. Got a little bit better response, but it's still much more about the 'name' games then anything else around these parts.

Some people still need more explanation than that.
Which is why I wrote a whole damn column! From then on, I was able to just paste them a link...beats explaining it again and again, I'll tell ya!
https://www.rpg.net/columns/tricksforgms/tricksforgms2.phtml

(I'd add a few things today, but the core explanation I gave several years ago still holds, which pleases me).


I'll look at this; thank you for the link, and the column! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 20, 2016, 01:59:52 AM
Quote from: Xanther;904172
Wow, I would have thought someone who directly played with Gary and Dave would have been listened to.
I had the same experience, being told by OSR or protectors of the true way who were still in diapers when started playing D&D and Traveler that the way we played was wrong, would lead to ruin, etc.  Certain folks would get down right demeaning and nasty about it.  Didn't matter that you could say knew of three campaigns that played that way for a decade with no ill effect, nor if you could give specific examples of how it all worked in play and how it did not work.  Found these were not really discussions but people just looking for facts to support their preconceptions and personal views.

'Free Kriegspiel' says it well if I understand the term, although everyone strove mightily to be consistent on their home rulings, which then became "house rules" to maintain consistency.

We particularly laughed at the "railroad" parts of modules that said something would happen no matter what the players did.  Really?  Ignored that BS right off.  Growing up in the late 70's and surviving the vilification of D&D as Satanic in the early 80's we were going to do what made sense to us.  And these "railroad" instructions we thought were just poor writing.

Now a "meta-game" background, without it your world is just lifeless and 2D IMHO.  The world should always have something it's doing and going to do barring PCs mucking it all up.  And right with you, all the campaigns I've ever ran or played in it was open, you didn't need to engage with any of the world's plots or even go to a particular dungeon etc.

From the reaction I got, the data that I was providing didn't fit the theory, and so had to be excluded. Quite a few of the self-described OSR people I've interacted with in the past have been very unhappy that my game play experiences don't fit in with their idea of how we're supposed to have played. And yes, some of then would get pretty cranky about it. So, I try to stay away from those discussions these days.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 20, 2016, 05:56:16 AM
Quote from: Xanther;904174
Love your explanation.  I live for those moments as a player and GM when the dice go wonky.  It's that aspect of unpredictability that forces you to rise to the occasion and come up with a "story" to fit in the improbable that makes it fun.

Thank you:). I'd just gotten bored of explaining the same things over and over.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;904224
Gah!  DISTRIBUTORS!  Don't talk to me about distributors!  Hate them or despise them, you can't ignore them!

In the mid 80s you didn't get direct orders enough to matter, everything was from distributors, and the bastards kept raising not only their minimum order from retailers but the percentage from manufacturers.  When the retailer gets 40% and the distributor wants 15% plus 2% if paid in 30 days an an EXTRA 2% for immediate payment, you're scraping for damn pennies.

And thus Amazon was born?

Quote from: David Johansen;904177
The problem there is that gaming companies have minimum orders ranging from $300 (Battle Front) to $7000 (Games Workshop's Store Starter Bundle after that it was $500 / week last time I checked) if you want a retail discount.  Personally I mostly order direct because the distributor I have is awful when it comes to rpgs and miniatures.  But with a low volume, low overhead hole in the wall store (you know that dark and dingy store people bitch about, that's my store) I can't afford to order $500 of stuff so you can get $50 and leave me stuck with $450.  The distributors are in the same boat.  They don't want to support rpgs because they still have warehouses full of d20 boom supplements for which they can't get core books anymore.  I do try.  I eventually managed to sell off all the Alls Quiet On The Martian Front stuff I got stuck with when the company went under and the fans set up an online trading post.  But stores often lack the capital to chase special orders that they can't get from their distributors.  And if their distributor is anything like mine, you have to pre-order most rpg stuff months in advance if you ever want to see it because if it doesn't say D&D they aren't ordering it without you committing to buy it.

http://www.neutralgroundgames.com

Yeah, but I wasn't even talking about gaming stores; my purchases of gaming stuff are PDF-only. When the local bookstore can't get me a book, and I manage to get it myself with half an hour of work, and reduce the shipping to nearly zero in the process, you could guess why I'm kinda miffed about their services...:D

Quote from: chirine ba kal;904258
From AsenRG:
We'll work on it. I'll think of something; I always do.

Nope, it was really never personal - at least for the major stuff - as I always tried to keep it professional.

Yeah, it seems I was playing Chirine right...though they've never interacted with him personally.

Quote
'Instructions', then... :)

Yes; I think the thing that netted me most points was using the fact that another faction has announced full mobilisation, and organizing a manufacture in one of their own cities, for supplies we needed.
It was faster to get them from there to the front lines, and if we were defeated, I'd have had a business in the winning country...:)

Quote
No, not really. I just like making stuff, and I guess I'm reasonably good at it.

"Reasonably good for someone with decades of experience" is "really, really good" in layman terms.

Quote
Yep. I gave up on trying to do special orders a long time ago. Now, it's all via the Internet with direct orders.

I'm tending towards the same solution, alas. It's more time-consuming.

Quote
Oh, OK; this explains a lot for me - thank you! :)

And here I thought I'm just being nitpicky;).

Quote
True; there's a lot of emphasis on texts, from what i've seen, and not much on direct experience.

That confirms my suspicions - although it doesn't make much sense, really.

Quote
I think it's based off the accounts of the game play out at Phil's in the 1990s; very few people know, based on the mythology out on the Internet, about the games in the late 1970s and 1980s. Our time with Phil was very free-form, very 'open sandbox'. If that changed later, I have no really good data on the subject.

Maybe. Or maybe people just misinterpreted what accounts there were. Both seem equally plausible to me; though from your description of the other group, that you split from? I'd have been tempted to railroad those guys, too. Though I'd probably just let them in the sandbox, and steer them towards the most self-destructive courses of action.
To paraphrase Gronan, "some PCs are only good when you watch them burn";).

Quote
Exactly. The meta-game keep providing new possibilities for adventures.

Glad I've got that right.

Quote
I tried that. Got a little bit better response, but it's still much more about the 'name' games then anything else around these parts.

Well, seems like you're in the same spot where my local community was 10 years ago or so. It has changed for the better now, but it took quite a bit of effort and side-stepping the community and building my own thing outside of it.
(Then people that have started with me in turn integrated with the local gamers and brought the outlook I'd taught them).

Quote
I'll look at this; thank you for the link, and the column! :)

No need to thank me, really; as I said, a few years ago I just got bored posting essentially the same stuff in threads, and wrote the thing so I can refer them to it...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;904259
From the reaction I got, the data that I was providing didn't fit the theory, and so had to be excluded. Quite a few of the self-described OSR people I've interacted with in the past have been very unhappy that my game play experiences don't fit in with their idea of how we're supposed to have played. And yes, some of then would get pretty cranky about it. So, I try to stay away from those discussions these days.

"How dares your experience to deviate from my theory" is sad when you encounter it in scientists, and merely funny when you encounter it in gamers, in my experience.
(It only gets scare when you encounter it in cops and judges. I'm fortunate to never had experienced that:D).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 20, 2016, 11:22:46 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;904259
From the reaction I got, the data that I was providing didn't fit the theory, and so had to be excluded. Quite a few of the self-described OSR people I've interacted with in the past have been very unhappy that my game play experiences don't fit in with their idea of how we're supposed to have played. And yes, some of then would get pretty cranky about it. So, I try to stay away from those discussions these days.


Yep.  Same with playing with Gary and Dave pre-1980.  One thing that REALLY gives people fits is when I describe how both of them just "made up some shit they thought would be fun."  RPGZ IZ SERIOUS BIDNEZZ, I guess.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: tenbones on June 20, 2016, 11:59:00 AM
I have a question! (finally) - totally unrelated to most of the topics here.

Was there any reaction to Raymond Feist's creating his world of Kelewan based off of Tekumel? His Empire series was pretty damn entertaining but it lifted *many* concepts from Tekumel. I was always curious to know what old-school Tekumel fans and creators felt about it? I'm not sure he ever publicly acknowledged it - I know he denied it at one point (but it's glaringly obvious).

Thoughts?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 20, 2016, 04:30:35 PM
Quote from: tenbones;904293
I have a question! (finally) - totally unrelated to most of the topics here.

Was there any reaction to Raymond Feist's creating his world of Kelewan based off of Tekumel? His Empire series was pretty damn entertaining but it lifted *many* concepts from Tekumel. I was always curious to know what old-school Tekumel fans and creators felt about it? I'm not sure he ever publicly acknowledged it - I know he denied it at one point (but it's glaringly obvious).

Thoughts?


I agree with you, it was entertaining but it obviously was Tekumel. I know my group saw the similarities right away. At the time we thought that he must have been a player, inspired by a  game that he was in, but his DM didn't tell him that Kelewan was actually Tekumel. I don't what the legal ramifications were, but I'm sure the Glorious General or Chirine can fill us in.
Wasn't there a Midkemia supplement out as well? I thing Judge's Guild  may have published it?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 20, 2016, 04:38:44 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;904287
Yep.  Same with playing with Gary and Dave pre-1980.  One thing that REALLY gives people fits is when I describe how both of them just "made up some shit they thought would be fun."  RPGZ IZ SERIOUS BIDNEZZ, I guess.

I just can't wrap my head around this. Ok, your preconceived notions of how it was are wrong. Deal with it, especially when an actual player who was there is telling you that this is how they did it! Holy shit Batman! You and Chirine are a hell of a lot more patient than I am. After the second time this happened I'd be swinging a bat.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: tenbones on June 20, 2016, 04:45:44 PM
Yep! Midkemia Press put out a few supplements for D&D which Feist converted into his novel world called Midkemia. He gives thanks to Steve Abrahms and the rest of his gaming crew in all his books.

I had to admit, while Kelewan is obviously a re-imagining of Tekumel, I found that series pretty damn good. I still think Tekumel deserves more credit for the 'originality' ascribed to those books. Kelewan as awesome as it is
SPOILER (Hover over section below to view.)

(or was since the whole planet got obliterated later in the Riftwar series)
would simply not exist if it weren't for Tekumel.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 21, 2016, 03:28:54 AM
Quote from: tenbones;904293
I have a question! (finally) - totally unrelated to most of the topics here.

Was there any reaction to Raymond Feist's creating his world of Kelewan based off of Tekumel? His Empire series was pretty damn entertaining but it lifted *many* concepts from Tekumel. I was always curious to know what old-school Tekumel fans and creators felt about it? I'm not sure he ever publicly acknowledged it - I know he denied it at one point (but it's glaringly obvious).

Thoughts?


Ah, me. I'll give the short version, for now, as we have to be up in six hours for the Missus' latest round of treatments. I had more then a front-row seat for this one. And now, Storytime with Uncle Chirine...

So we get a letter in from a Tekumel fan, asking about this new book by Ray Feist, and it is part of the 'Tekumel canon'? No idea what he's talking about, so I get sent out to buy a copy and read it for Phil. I do so, and Kelewan seems very familiar. So, I bring this out to Phil, and he gets on the phone to Don Wohlheim at DAW Books; Don asks Phil to provide notes on the possible copyright infringement, and (as usual) the job gets handed to me. I do the same kind of work that Dave Arneson's Very Big-name Lawyer did for all the TSR royalty lawsuits, and do side-by-side comparisons with Phil's and Ray's works. I found that the descriptions in the Feist book were close, but not identical with, Phil's descriptions of the same items, like the insect-like Choja /Pe Choi. I turned the whole pile of notes over to Phil, he sent them to DAW, DAW handed them to their lawyer, and their lawyer found that there was no copyright infringement with any of the books that DAW had published; the issue seemed to be with the TSR EPT, the lawyer said, so DAW had no legal standing in the matter. Don, trying to help Phil out,  bought Phil a membership in the Science Fiction Writers of America (SFWA), and suggested that Phil take it to the SFWA arbitration committee which had been set up specifically to deal with things like this. Phil got very upset and told Tekumel Games to sue Mr. Feist, and Tekumel Games CEO (this was after Gronan's time in the hot seat, by the way) pointed out that the company had no legal standing in the matter either, because Phil had never signed a contract with the company to publish his works - they were, in effect, a surplus dealer as all they had were the legacy products from Adventure Games and my Tekumel Journal; Phil, while majority stockholder and Chairman of the Board of Directors of Tekumel Games Inc., hadn't done any agreements for publishing anything new with the company.

Phil got very upset, cried "Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest?", and stopped doing anything for DAW - he was in the middle of "Lords of Tsamra" at the time, and put it on the shelf for over a decade. For whatever reason, Phil didn't pursue the matter any further, and griped about it for years. He didn't take to the SFWA board, either, which baffled all of us at the time. Later on, I got to talk to both Mr. Wohlheim and Mr. Feist, and they were surprised that Phil hadn't gone to SFWA. This was back in the days when the concept of 'Intellectual Property' was still being defined, and having SFWA look at this would have been a real benefit for everyone.

Back at the beginning of this, I'd had a feeling from the way things were being described that Ray was playing in somebody's D&D game, and the GM had used Tekumel as the basis for his 'other world' that you got to through the rift. Back in the day, this was a very common thing in gaming; people would wander back and forth between Blackmoor and Greyhawk pretty frequently, for example. Nobody in the D&D campaign (which was out on the West Coast) knew about Tekumel, and it wasn't until they started doing the publishing that they found out what was going on; they contacted TSR, and they got permission to use the EPT-inspired elements in the books. So, they thought that they had it covered, and why they thought that going to SFWA would have been a good idea.

This turned into a major scandal / controversy amongst a number of the die-hard fans on both sides of the fence, and you can still spark heated discussions amongst them to this day.

Me, I walked away from this one years ago. I'm an archivist, not a lawyer, and once I'd recorded the data that was it for me. I do have copies of the Feist books on my bookshelf, as well as the recent Atlas / Sourcebook; I was hugely amused to see the Ral Partha figures we'd been using out at Phil's being used as some of the models for some of the cover artwork. (But that's another tale.)

So, that's the short form of the backstory.

Kelewan is not Tekumel; there are enough differences between the two to make them separate world-settings, and I threat them that way. A Livyani sorcerer I know would say that the two are 'next to each other', and I'm satisfied with that. Yes, the one inspired the other, and beyond that it's one for the lawyers.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 21, 2016, 11:04:15 AM
Is it bad of me that I'm devoutly glad that I was no longer involved with the business part of Tekumel at that time?

Also, it's kind of interesting because the Golden Age sf/fantasy authors borrowed liberally from each other all the time; see A Midsummer Tempest by Poul Anderson and the ending of Heinlein's Number of the Beast.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: tenbones on June 21, 2016, 11:20:24 AM
Wow! That's pretty damn interesting. As a fan of Tekumel and Feist, I can totally see how that might have developed. There certainly were differences between the two - I never knew how far things went behind the scenes. Ray didn't seem, to me, the type to wholesale "steal" these ideas in some malicious way. But yeah, that explains a lot. I know a lot of old-school GM's that just stuck all kinds of stuff from books, movies, other games into their homebrew and let it fly.

Thank you so much for the inside story. I really appreciate it!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 22, 2016, 02:35:36 AM
From AsenRG:
Yeah, it seems I was playing Chirine right...though they've never interacted with him personally.

Sounds good. These days, I don't go off on adventures - adventures seem to come to me, which is nice because I get to eat at home and sleep in my own bed - but I am one of the 'patrons' that sends parties of adventurers / player-characters off on the sort of 'odd jobs' that I used to have to do. (Even have the figures for it, thanks to Dark Fable!) I was, and probably always will be, a guy who's trying to provide for the family and household, just like most people; I just happen to be a powerful sorcerer who lives on a very hostile alien world... :)

Yes; I think the thing that netted me most points was using the fact that another faction has announced full mobilisation, and organizing a manufacture in one of their own cities, for supplies we needed.
It was faster to get them from there to the front lines, and if we were defeated, I'd have had a business in the winning country...:)


Sun Tzu would be very proud of you, sir! :)

"Reasonably good for someone with decades of experience" is "really, really good" in layman terms.

Oh. Well. I have to say that I agree with you, if I may be so immodest. I just like making things; I'm good with my hands and tools, and stuff seems to flow together in most projects. No idea why, it just is...

Maybe. Or maybe people just misinterpreted what accounts there were. Both seem equally plausible to me; though from your description of the other group, that you split from? I'd have been tempted to railroad those guys, too. Though I'd probably just let them in the sandbox, and steer them towards the most self-destructive courses of action.
To paraphrase Gronan, "some PCs are only good when you watch them burn";).


There were, out at Phil's, several different generations of each of the two groups. The original Monday guys were the 'New Men', and they had faded out by the middle 1980s; they were replaced by a number of 'power gamers', who lasted until the middle to late 1990s. Out group was in it's heyday 1978 to 1988, and then the original membership was largely replaced by the 'politically correct'. Both groups closed down in the late 1990s, and our groups' name was taken up by the five or six players who remained. I think, based on all the accounts I've heard, that we were the most 'open sandbox' of the groups as well as being the most assimilated and immersed in the setting.

Well, seems like you're in the same spot where my local community was 10 years ago or so. It has changed for the better now, but it took quite a bit of effort and side-stepping the community and building my own thing outside of it.
(Then people that have started with me in turn integrated with the local gamers and brought the outlook I'd taught them).


I would not be surprised at this. I'll keep plugging away, and we'll see what happens. I start a new job in two weeks - I had a very successful interview today, at the end of which I was offered the position - with a better schedule, and we'll see if that helps.

"How dares your experience to deviate from my theory" is sad when you encounter it in scientists, and merely funny when you encounter it in gamers, in my experience.
(It only gets scare when you encounter it in cops and judges. I'm fortunate to never had experienced that:D).


Agreed; it just got old, in the gaming discussions...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 22, 2016, 02:37:52 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;904422
Is it bad of me that I'm devoutly glad that I was no longer involved with the business part of Tekumel at that time?

Also, it's kind of interesting because the Golden Age sf/fantasy authors borrowed liberally from each other all the time; see A Midsummer Tempest by Poul Anderson and the ending of Heinlein's Number of the Beast.

No, I don;t think so. You were able to get out just in time, I think, as the control rods seemed to come right out of the reactor after this affair.

Agreed. See also Lovecraft and Howard sharing their story elements back and forth, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 22, 2016, 02:38:45 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;904422
Is it bad of me that I'm devoutly glad that I was no longer involved with the business part of Tekumel at that time?

Also, it's kind of interesting because the Golden Age sf/fantasy authors borrowed liberally from each other all the time; see A Midsummer Tempest by Poul Anderson and the ending of Heinlein's Number of the Beast.


No, I don;t think so. You were able to get out just in time, I think, as the control rods seemed to come right out of the reactor after this affair.

Agreed. See also Lovecraft and Howard sharing their story elements back and forth, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 22, 2016, 02:47:13 AM
Quote from: tenbones;904426
Wow! That's pretty damn interesting. As a fan of Tekumel and Feist, I can totally see how that might have developed. There certainly were differences between the two - I never knew how far things went behind the scenes. Ray didn't seem, to me, the type to wholesale "steal" these ideas in some malicious way. But yeah, that explains a lot. I know a lot of old-school GM's that just stuck all kinds of stuff from books, movies, other games into their homebrew and let it fly.

Thank you so much for the inside story. I really appreciate it!!!


You're welcome. All I can do is report what I saw and heard.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 22, 2016, 01:53:47 PM
Chirine,

Just out of curiosity, are the names for non human species given in EPT Tsolyani terms, or is it what they refer to themselves as? For Example, do Ahoggya call themselves "Ahoggya", or do they use some other term? Could you tell us what the Mu'ugalavyani, or Salarvyani, or Yan Koryani, or Saa Alaquiyani word for Pe Choi, or Ahoggya, or Ssu is?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 22, 2016, 08:06:18 PM
I don't remember what the Shen call themselves... it may be Shen... but in the days of the Three Light Drive they called themselves "Grg-hss".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 22, 2016, 08:22:04 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;904693
I don't remember what the Shen call themselves... it may be Shen... but in the days of the Three Light Drive they called themselves "Grg-hss".


Cool, Thank you Glorious General.:cool:
They all must have some different type of self-identifier species name than those presented in the book. I can't see Phil missing something like that given his anthropological training. Now whether or not he wrote it down is another thing altogether.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 22, 2016, 10:23:16 PM
I was on the old Blue Room site, and found this post. I thought it was interesting.  Any further comments from Chirine or the Glorious General? I'm sure that they would be appreciated by all.

[Moderator's Note:  Chuck Monson shares information about Battle Magic.      ]

"My tales of battle magic are based on battles with Barker present in days
when I still had hair.  Indeed, lacking strong battle magic resources is a
near thing, but never insurmountable in my experience.  In a balanced game,
where generals are supposed to have a working knowledge of the opponent on
the field, both sides often make sure of magic resources before engaging.  
In each of three battles I was the Yan Koryani commander where I had lesser
resources in the magic field than my opponents.  In fact, I generally
discounted any effect of magics short of tactical advantage (dropping a tree
on an insidious archer with a magic bow, blowing up a bridge while an enemy
unit crossed it, and on one dire emergency, firing spells into the ranks of
oncoming armor plated Shen at short range).  The operations for most battle
magics is to keep the opponent priests from fragging your command staff and
your magic users.  
In one battle, my rolls of dice were phenomenal (three d100 1's in a row) to
have normal archers penetrate the comfort zone of the Tsolyani command
platform and succeed in nailing the General himself inspite of  magical
shields, magic armor, and a couple of  offensive spells.  (I believe that the
officer of that group was the only one to stagger back to my lines.) Battle
magics are powerful.  They are just not the only lethal effect in battle.  
Luring the enemy into his doom is always a nice touch, but don't rely on your
magics to go unheeded by the enemy priests.  Or unavenged by nasty Mad Ones
who could care less about such things.  
Field tactics are almost magical in themselves.  I learned about toe-clips
for sandals allowing a dust cloud to be raised.  At a distance safe to
manoeuvre at speed, my army reassembled for an assault by hiding behind the
obscuring dust wall and marching to the right flank. The Tsolyani had to pick
up their entire seige train to chase me.  Disrupting the enemy position on a
battlefield is more successful than simply knocking about a few hundred
troops with spells.
Magics with sound military plans and good opportunities work well, but do not
rely on the magics to stop enemy legions.  It might make your troops lack
confidence in your military skills or  question your worthiness to lead the
boyos into death's maw.  Honor is ever at the fore and success depends on who
is left standing beside you."

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 22, 2016, 10:29:05 PM
Chirine,

I also found this post from Phil:

"Yes, in "official" Tekumelani history there is a legion lost in the
Unending Grey. Arrogance on the part of its general led to a confrontation
with Other-Planar creatures, which in turn caused said general to use a
very potent Nexus Point spell, which led directly into the Unending Grey.
They're still in there..."


Do you know the name of legion, or the name of the General, or the story of the "confrontation
with Other-Planar creatures" that is being referred to?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 22, 2016, 11:05:45 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;904707
I was on the old Blue Room site, and found this post. I thought it was interesting.  Any further comments from Chirine or the Glorious General? I'm sure that they would be appreciated by all.

[Moderator's Note:  Chuck Monson shares information about Battle Magic.      ]

* snippity*

Shemek

He's right.  Magic is one arm of your strategy, not the answer to everything.  A moron with magic is still a moron.  (Write that one down, Chirine, it'll look great in the memoirs.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 22, 2016, 11:35:36 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;904714
He's right.  Magic is one arm of your strategy, not the answer to everything.  A moron with magic is still a moron.  (Write that one down, Chirine, it'll look great in the memoirs.)


Ain't that the truth. I liked his summary and tactical analysis that's why I posted it here. Was he a member of the Thursday Night Group, and do you know which battle he's referencing?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 23, 2016, 02:48:26 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;904638
Chirine,

Just out of curiosity, are the names for non human species given in EPT Tsolyani terms, or is it what they refer to themselves as? For Example, do Ahoggya call themselves "Ahoggya", or do they use some other term? Could you tell us what the Mu'ugalavyani, or Salarvyani, or Yan Koryani, or Saa Alaquiyani word for Pe Choi, or Ahoggya, or Ssu is?

Shemek.

First off, yes; I'd suggest looking at a copy of "Humanspace Empires", where the author has collated all of these names from the various texts. See it at: http://ixians.blogspot.com/2010/12/humanspace-empires.html (http://ixians.blogspot.com/2010/12/humanspace-empires.html)

Second, I'll have to look; Phil didn't do a lot of development on many of the languages. I have all of what exists, and I'll troll through them for you and see what I can find. It may be the weekend before I have anything; lots of real-world stuff going on right now. (I start a new job on July 11th, for example.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 23, 2016, 02:49:43 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;904695
Cool, Thank you Glorious General.:cool:
They all must have some different type of self-identifier species name than those presented in the book. I can't see Phil missing something like that given his anthropological training. Now whether or not he wrote it down is another thing altogether.

Shemek.

He didn't; it's in there, but we have to dig around a bit for it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 23, 2016, 02:54:17 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;904707
I was on the old Blue Room site, and found this post. I thought it was interesting.  Any further comments from Chirine or the Glorious General? I'm sure that they would be appreciated by all.

[Moderator's Note:  Chuck Monson shares information about Battle Magic.      ]

"My tales of battle magic are based on battles with Barker present in days
when I still had hair.  Indeed, lacking strong battle magic resources is a
near thing, but never insurmountable in my experience.  In a balanced game,
where generals are supposed to have a working knowledge of the opponent on
the field, both sides often make sure of magic resources before engaging.  
In each of three battles I was the Yan Koryani commander where I had lesser
resources in the magic field than my opponents.  In fact, I generally
discounted any effect of magics short of tactical advantage (dropping a tree
on an insidious archer with a magic bow, blowing up a bridge while an enemy
unit crossed it, and on one dire emergency, firing spells into the ranks of
oncoming armor plated Shen at short range).  The operations for most battle
magics is to keep the opponent priests from fragging your command staff and
your magic users.  
In one battle, my rolls of dice were phenomenal (three d100 1's in a row) to
have normal archers penetrate the comfort zone of the Tsolyani command
platform and succeed in nailing the General himself inspite of  magical
shields, magic armor, and a couple of  offensive spells.  (I believe that the
officer of that group was the only one to stagger back to my lines.) Battle
magics are powerful.  They are just not the only lethal effect in battle.  
Luring the enemy into his doom is always a nice touch, but don't rely on your
magics to go unheeded by the enemy priests.  Or unavenged by nasty Mad Ones
who could care less about such things.  
Field tactics are almost magical in themselves.  I learned about toe-clips
for sandals allowing a dust cloud to be raised.  At a distance safe to
manoeuvre at speed, my army reassembled for an assault by hiding behind the
obscuring dust wall and marching to the right flank. The Tsolyani had to pick
up their entire seige train to chase me.  Disrupting the enemy position on a
battlefield is more successful than simply knocking about a few hundred
troops with spells.
Magics with sound military plans and good opportunities work well, but do not
rely on the magics to stop enemy legions.  It might make your troops lack
confidence in your military skills or  question your worthiness to lead the
boyos into death's maw.  Honor is ever at the fore and success depends on who
is left standing beside you."

Shemek

Great find! Chuck played with Phil back in the days before there were any published rules sets, and using various historicals rules with modifications. He's dead on about how Phil viewed how military sorcery should work in his world, and it's how I functioned in it. While I am a powerful weapon, I am also a very high-value target and have to be used very carefully and tactically. See also Third Mar... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 23, 2016, 02:56:08 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;904708
Chirine,

I also found this post from Phil:

"Yes, in "official" Tekumelani history there is a legion lost in the
Unending Grey. Arrogance on the part of its general led to a confrontation
with Other-Planar creatures, which in turn caused said general to use a
very potent Nexus Point spell, which led directly into the Unending Grey.
They're still in there..."


Do you know the name of legion, or the name of the General, or the story of the "confrontation
with Other-Planar creatures" that is being referred to?

Shemek

Oh! I know this one! We encountered these people in one of our adventures - let me look it up in my notes, and I'll get back to you. It was a passing encounter - the general involved really is a jerk...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 23, 2016, 02:57:20 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;904714
He's right.  Magic is one arm of your strategy, not the answer to everything.  A moron with magic is still a moron.  (Write that one down, Chirine, it'll look great in the memoirs.)

To hear is to obey. It's all true, too. How many morons did we face, over the years... ?)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 23, 2016, 03:04:37 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;904716
Ain't that the truth. I liked his summary and tactical analysis that's why I posted it here. Was he a member of the Thursday Night Group, and do you know which battle he's referencing?

Shemek.

I replied earlier, but I'll expand a bit. Chuck was one of the 'proto-EPT' players, back in the 1973 / 1974 era, and one of the people Phil used to game with at CSA meetings and the Little Tin Soldier Shoppe. He was also in on the very first miniatures games Phil did, where there was first a lot of 'proxy' figures and then one of the first to play out at Phil's with when Phil got his new Tekumel figures from Old Guard / Bill Murray. This was back before the war with Yan Kor got started, so they had a lot of 'one-off' battles where Phil devised the sides. I think, based on the information I found in Phil's papers, that two of these games were the classic battles of Ry and Chanis. I think he's referencing the latter, which had Shen in it; Ry is a pretty straightforward human vs. human piledriver, and not a very sophisticated battle like Chanis is.

He moved away from the area a while before we started the original Thursday Night Group, as I recall him once saying.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 23, 2016, 02:34:05 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;904744
He didn't; it's in there, but we have to dig around a bit for it.


Sounds good, and thanks.:)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 23, 2016, 02:46:02 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;904743
First off, yes; I'd suggest looking at a copy of "Humanspace Empires", where the author has collated all of these names from the various texts. See it at: http://ixians.blogspot.com/2010/12/humanspace-empires.html (http://ixians.blogspot.com/2010/12/humanspace-empires.html)

Second, I'll have to look; Phil didn't do a lot of development on many of the languages. I have all of what exists, and I'll troll through them for you and see what I can find. It may be the weekend before I have anything; lots of real-world stuff going on right now. (I start a new job on July 11th, for example.)


That would be great. It's just something I have been meaning to ask about for a little while and keep forgetting to do so.:o I'll flip through the HSE rules, and check the website as well.
Congrats on the new job. Hopefully "new" is also better in this case. Will you still be on afternoons/evenings? This shift has to be the worst shift of all. I was on evenings for two years when I first got married, Mon-Fri: 3:30 to 11:30, and this schedule nearly killed me and the marriage. We used to call it the "dead man's shift" as you have no life when on it. Even mid nights was better IMO.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 23, 2016, 02:51:23 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;904746
Great find! Chuck played with Phil back in the days before there were any published rules sets, and using various historicals rules with modifications. He's dead on about how Phil viewed how military sorcery should work in his world, and it's how I functioned in it. While I am a powerful weapon, I am also a very high-value target and have to be used very carefully and tactically. See also Third Mar... :)

I also found this message from Phil as a follow up on the original Battlefield Magic post by Chuck Monson.

"Battle magic is indeed a way of slowing down and harassing an enemy army.
It also slows down your own forces. But it keeps every little would-be hero
from running out and zapping enemy leaders with his own little Eye of
Raging Power (or what have you). Can you imagine warfare in which magic is
used and in which there is *no* counter? What a mess that would be! With no
way to defend your generals and organised forces, warfare would quickly
become an incredible chaos of warring magicians."

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 23, 2016, 02:52:59 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;904747
Oh! I know this one! We encountered these people in one of our adventures - let me look it up in my notes, and I'll get back to you. It was a passing encounter - the general involved really is a jerk...


This sounds fun. Can't wait to hear the story.:D

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 23, 2016, 08:55:39 PM
Congratulations or condolences as appropriate on the new job, Chirine.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 23, 2016, 11:41:47 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;904748
To hear is to obey. It's all true, too. How many morons did we face, over the years... ?)

Congrats on the new job, if that's in order.

I've lost track.  Facing a moron isn't as much fun as you may think, folks; a game against poor opposition isn't really much fun.  However, it's far worse when the moron(s) are on YOUR side.  Wish I had a dollar for every time I've thought "I wish this were a real battle, at least then I could have you shot for incompetence."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 24, 2016, 02:18:30 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;904827
That would be great. It's just something I have been meaning to ask about for a little while and keep forgetting to do so.:o I'll flip through the HSE rules, and check the website as well.
Congrats on the new job. Hopefully "new" is also better in this case. Will you still be on afternoons/evenings? This shift has to be the worst shift of all. I was on evenings for two years when I first got married, Mon-Fri: 3:30 to 11:30, and this schedule nearly killed me and the marriage. We used to call it the "dead man's shift" as you have no life when on it. Even mid nights was better IMO.

Shemek.

Happy to help! I really need to have a look through the files to see just how many language books we have; beyond that, I really need to do a complete index of our holdings.

The new job is in a different department, doing very different things that I happen to be very qualified for; I did the interview, and they hired me on the spot. I'll be moving off the 3:30 pm - 12:00 am shift that I've been on for this past year, and moving to 7:00 am - 3:30 pm.I'd been on an overnight shift since 2008, and I liked it better - more of a life outside work. So, I think this will be a good move. The only downside is that on days when the Missus needs transportation to her medical appointments, she'll have to drop me off and pick me up. So it goes...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 24, 2016, 02:21:38 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;904829
I also found this message from Phil as a follow up on the original Battlefield Magic post by Chuck Monson.

"Battle magic is indeed a way of slowing down and harassing an enemy army.
It also slows down your own forces. But it keeps every little would-be hero
from running out and zapping enemy leaders with his own little Eye of
Raging Power (or what have you). Can you imagine warfare in which magic is
used and in which there is *no* counter? What a mess that would be! With no
way to defend your generals and organised forces, warfare would quickly
become an incredible chaos of warring magicians."

Shemek


Yep. This. And Phil was still fuming over Dutlor / Tim Cox hitting Princess Ma'in with the Eye of Changing Alignment (instantly deleted from the manuscript of EPT, by the way) back in 1974, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 24, 2016, 02:23:05 AM
Quote from: Bren;904872
Congratulations or condolences as appropriate on the new job, Chirine.


Thank you! I am looking forward to the move - better schedule, and more time to write! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 24, 2016, 02:32:47 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;904895
Congrats on the new job, if that's in order.

I've lost track.  Facing a moron isn't as much fun as you may think, folks; a game against poor opposition isn't really much fun.  However, it's far worse when the moron(s) are on YOUR side.  Wish I had a dollar for every time I've thought "I wish this were a real battle, at least then I could have you shot for incompetence."

Thank you! I think it'll be a lot better for me - a lot less stress, and that's what I really need these days.

Oh, how very true. There's a huge difference between playing with inexperienced or novice players - we did a lot of that - and players who did just plain stupid things, often just for the sake of doing something stupid. Luckily, most of the time they didn't last long in any of the groups we were in...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 24, 2016, 11:04:28 AM
Many congratulations on the shift to real hours!  Swing shift is awful, I agree; you have no life.

Yep.  Tom T. was green and sometimes over eager, but he learned as the years went on.

I honestly think the Tin Soldier Shop was one of the worst gathering places for the "too stupid to shit unassisted" players.  I remember Kadarsha teaching a young lad named Justin about "refusing the center".  This 13 year old then went on to become one of the most victorious gamers there because his idea of tactics was something more advanced then, to quote Chirine, "lining up your troops and vibrating the table top like an electric football game."  (Metaphor, but accurate in its way.  They lined 'em up and slid 'em forward.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 24, 2016, 12:10:16 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;904562
Sounds good. These days, I don't go off on adventures - adventures seem to come to me, which is nice because I get to eat at home and sleep in my own bed - but I am one of the 'patrons' that sends parties of adventurers / player-characters off on the sort of 'odd jobs' that I used to have to do.
And that's how Chirine figured in my game:). Though I did place it nearer the beginning of his career.

Quote
Sun Tzu would be very proud of you, sir! :)
Thank you, though this part was inspired more by Wu Tzu! He was of the opinion that one should be humane to people you're trying to conquer, while Old Sun was more of a proponent of "scorched earth policy". Old Wu's stance was better suited to my disposition - I was paying those people for the things they delivered, after all...
(That, and I'd recently read how British traders were selling arms to a country they were in a war with. It inspired me to find people that would be even less patriotic).

Quote
Oh. Well. I have to say that I agree with you, if I may be so immodest. I just like making things; I'm good with my hands and tools, and stuff seems to flow together in most projects. No idea why, it just is...
I think it has something to do with the letters XP...;)

Quote
There were, out at Phil's, several different generations of each of the two groups. The original Monday guys were the 'New Men', and they had faded out by the middle 1980s; they were replaced by a number of 'power gamers', who lasted until the middle to late 1990s. Out group was in it's heyday 1978 to 1988, and then the original membership was largely replaced by the 'politically correct'. Both groups closed down in the late 1990s, and our groups' name was taken up by the five or six players who remained. I think, based on all the accounts I've heard, that we were the most 'open sandbox' of the groups as well as being the most assimilated and immersed in the setting.
Makes sense. The more a group is integrated in the setting, the less a Referee needs to give them direction.

Quote
I would not be surprised at this. I'll keep plugging away, and we'll see what happens. I start a new job in two weeks - I had a very successful interview today, at the end of which I was offered the position - with a better schedule, and we'll see if that helps.
Congratulations on the new job!
It should help, we hope...

Quote
Agreed; it just got old, in the gaming discussions...
Gaming discussions sure have some weird ideas. Like niche protection - someone posted today on another forum that Gronan's idea that thieves can Hide in Shadows, but everybody can sneak in utter darkness, amounts to "lack of niche protection".
Or the idea that "if you're not using the monsters from the Monster Manual, when running a system with heavier mechanics, you're lying to your players", from another discussion.

The trick is to laugh, call BS when appropriate, and not get angry.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;904714
He's right.  Magic is one arm of your strategy, not the answer to everything.  A moron with magic is still a moron.  (Write that one down, Chirine, it'll look great in the memoirs.)
How true...


Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;904895
I've lost track.  Facing a moron isn't as much fun as you may think, folks; a game against poor opposition isn't really much fun.  However, it's far worse when the moron(s) are on YOUR side.  Wish I had a dollar for every time I've thought "I wish this were a real battle, at least then I could have you shot for incompetence."
Well, yes on the "facing a moron" part. You can make your moves interesting, but there's no way to do it for his moves...

And in game, I've shot other PCs for incompetence. Well, technically, I was going to, but the player chose to listen to reason...
The ones that didn't, in another game, I ordered to be hanged:D!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;904909
Yep. This. And Phil was still fuming over Dutlor / Tim Cox hitting Princess Ma'in with the Eye of Changing Alignment (instantly deleted from the manuscript of EPT, by the way) back in 1974, too.
Did he get impaled:p?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;904912
Oh, how very true. There's a huge difference between playing with inexperienced or novice players - we did a lot of that - and players who did just plain stupid things, often just for the sake of doing something stupid. Luckily, most of the time they didn't last long in any of the groups we were in...
Of course they wouldn't, there are dice and NPCs for that...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;905004
Yep.  Tom T. was green and sometimes over eager, but he learned as the years went on.

I honestly think the Tin Soldier Shop was one of the worst gathering places for the "too stupid to shit unassisted" players.  I remember Kadarsha teaching a young lad named Justin about "refusing the center".  This 13 year old then went on to become one of the most victorious gamers there because his idea of tactics was something more advanced then, to quote Chirine, "lining up your troops and vibrating the table top like an electric football game."  (Metaphor, but accurate in its way.  They lined 'em up and slid 'em forward.)
Yes, I remember that you were astounded when I quoted the statement "there's no tactics in D&D, because everybody charges for glory". That was the opinion of an old-school player.
But it sure seems there is always a demographic for which this statement is true;).
Tactics work especially well when you meet those kind of opponents, of course...:D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 24, 2016, 07:58:01 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;905018
Like niche protection - someone posted today on another forum that Gronan's idea that thieves can Hide in Shadows, but everybody can sneak in utter darkness, amounts to "lack of niche protection".

At some point I stopped trying to fit my game to people too stupid to shit unassisted.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 24, 2016, 07:58:14 PM
Hey All,

Found some pictures on line I thought I would share. I don't know who the artist is, but they are great. Enjoy.

First one: some Hlyss (Getting stomped by Chirine?)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]202[/ATTACH]

Second one: Ahoggya and Shen.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]203[/ATTACH]

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 24, 2016, 08:00:00 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;905106
At some point I stopped trying to fit my game to people too stupid to shit unassisted.

Yea Verily!

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 25, 2016, 05:59:59 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;905106
At some point I stopped trying to fit my game to people too stupid to shit unassisted.
:D
We've kinda noticed. The same measure improved my gaming, too...:)

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;905107
Hey All,

Found some pictures on line I thought I would share. I don't know who the artist is, but they are great. Enjoy.
They're great pictures, indeed;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 25, 2016, 01:00:54 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;905175
:


They're great pictures, indeed;)!

I really like them. I'm going to use them as visual aids in my campaign. You know what they say about the value of a picture versus words;) I think they might be some of Kathy Marshall's work.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 25, 2016, 01:21:41 PM
Chirine,

When you "officially" stopped being a member of the TNG what was the game date, and where were you in the Tekumel story arc in relation to the novels. I know you mentioned in an earlier post that Phil petulantly allowed Chirine to be impaled, but I think that was much later on. If you already covered this question please direct me to posting, if you wouldn't mind? I was recently reading a Chronology of Tekumel history, specifically during the Civil War, Dhichune's reign, and the immediate aftermath of him being "deposed", and I got to wondering where Chirine was when this was going on.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 25, 2016, 04:03:46 PM
I just heard a rumor that our own Chirine will be playing a bandit chief NPC in a game this afternoon... the ref is another old friend who likes to "subcontract his evil."

As I told the ref, 'tell him "Chirine, my compliments to the Molkars please, and no prisoners." '  :D  I wish I could be there!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 25, 2016, 04:24:05 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;905253
I just heard a rumor that our own Chirine will be playing a bandit chief NPC in a game this afternoon... the ref is another old friend who likes to "subcontract his evil."

Now that's evil, and I approve:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 25, 2016, 04:25:07 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;905004
Many congratulations on the shift to real hours!  Swing shift is awful, I agree; you have no life.

Yep.  Tom T. was green and sometimes over eager, but he learned as the years went on.

I honestly think the Tin Soldier Shop was one of the worst gathering places for the "too stupid to shit unassisted" players.  I remember Kadarsha teaching a young lad named Justin about "refusing the center".  This 13 year old then went on to become one of the most victorious gamers there because his idea of tactics was something more advanced then, to quote Chirine, "lining up your troops and vibrating the table top like an electric football game."  (Metaphor, but accurate in its way.  They lined 'em up and slid 'em forward.)


Oh, how true! The saga of the 'invention of the refused center (The Tactic), followed by the 'invention' of the refused left flank (The Other Tactic), followed by the 'invention' of the refused right flank (The Other Other Tactic) was both funny and sad; Kadarsha was loudly accused of CHEATING! because he was using tactics in a wargame. The rotter.

And you can still find some of these guys playing in pickup games at the FLGS. Which may be one of the reasons I'm kind of leery of gaming at the FLGS...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 25, 2016, 04:58:28 PM
From AsenRG:
And that's how Chirine figured in my game:). Though I did place it nearer the beginning of his career.

Well, I like it. There's a lot to choose from in my career, isn't there, and it should provide lots of ideas for adventures.

Thank you, though this part was inspired more by Wu Tzu! He was of the opinion that one should be humane to people you're trying to conquer, while Old Sun was more of a proponent of "scorched earth policy". Old Wu's stance was better suited to my disposition - I was paying those people for the things they delivered, after all...
(That, and I'd recently read how British traders were selling arms to a country they were in a war with. It inspired me to find people that would be even less patriotic).


Good point! I can also think of the time Krupp was selling artillery to the Imperial Chinese, only to have the guns used on the German gunboats. Or Vickers paying Krupp royalties throughout the First World War for the use of the Krupp 'Patent Shell Fuse' on the rounds being fired at the Germans...

I think it has something to do with the letters XP...;)

:)

Makes sense. The more a group is integrated in the setting, the less a Referee needs to give them direction.

I think that this is very true. We were very, very integrated into the setting, while the other groups were quite up-front about not being all that integrated / involved in the setting.

Congratulations on the new job! It should help, we hope...

I think it will. I'll have a lot more time for writing, as well as actually getting out of the house and seeing people. I have great hopes for stress reduction, as well! :)

Gaming discussions sure have some weird ideas. Like niche protection - someone posted today on another forum that Gronan's idea that thieves can Hide in Shadows, but everybody can sneak in utter darkness, amounts to "lack of niche protection".
Or the idea that "if you're not using the monsters from the Monster Manual, when running a system with heavier mechanics, you're lying to your players", from another discussion.


'Niche protection'? 'Lack of'? I'm frankly astonished by the notion. We assumed that we all had specialties, so the specialist did what they were good at; if the specialist wasn't available, then somebody else would try. The idea what the party would, in effect, stand around waiting for the specialist to show up and do their thing just didn't occur to us. Everybody played, and everybody got to do things.

'Lying to your players'? Not here, thank you. Didn't play like that, don't play like that, won't play like that.

The trick is to laugh, call BS when appropriate, and not get angry.

Very true. My eyes bulge out a bit, then I simply leave the area.

Well, yes on the "facing a moron" part. You can make your moves interesting, but there's no way to do it for his moves...

And in game, I've shot other PCs for incompetence. Well, technically, I was going to, but the player chose to listen to reason...
The ones that didn't, in another game, I ordered to be hanged:D!


All very appropriate, I think. Like the medieval English army commander who simply pole-axed one of his subordinates for not doing anything during a battle.

Did he get impaled:p?

Nope; the OAL hunted hiom down, out in the Tsolei Islands where he'd fled to, and wrapped him in wet Vraoz fibers and let him dry out. The stuff is as strong as steel wire, and shrinks as it dries...

Of course they wouldn't, there are dice and NPCs for that...

Yes, but usually it didn't come to that; after a few games, nobody would play with or run games with them, and they'd eventually get the message and drift off.

Yes, I remember that you were astounded when I quoted the statement "there's no tactics in D&D, because everybody charges for glory". That was the opinion of an old-school player.
But it sure seems there is always a demographic for which this statement is true;).
Tactics work especially well when you meet those kind of opponents, of course...:D


I'm still boggled by this; we always thought and fought tactically, as it just seemed like a useful survival mechanism. Arneson was what was called a 'killer referee', and Phil's Tekumel was just plain deadly.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 25, 2016, 05:01:13 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;905257
Oh, how true! The saga of the 'invention of the refused center (The Tactic), followed by the 'invention' of the refused left flank (The Other Tactic), followed by the 'invention' of the refused right flank (The Other Other Tactic) was both funny and sad; Kadarsha was loudly accused of CHEATING! because he was using tactics in a wargame. The rotter.

And you can still find some of these guys playing in pickup games at the FLGS. Which may be one of the reasons I'm kind of leery of gaming at the FLGS...

:D

I have been accused of the same for using a chokepoint in an RPG fight. Obviously I was supposed instead to charge and duke it out with the more numerous monsters, and tactics are supposed to amount to rolling higher than the other guy:).

Which is the long-winded way of saying, good on him for learning, and I hope he handed them their defeats on a silver platter many, many times;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 25, 2016, 05:01:31 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;905107
Hey All,

Found some pictures on line I thought I would share. I don't know who the artist is, but they are great. Enjoy.

First one: some Hlyss (Getting stomped by Chirine?)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]202[/ATTACH]

Second one: Ahoggya and Shen.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]203[/ATTACH]

Shemek


Both are from the AGI edition of "Deeds of the Ever-Glorious". The top one is the Givers of Sorrow in a sea battle, of all things; somebody had the bright idea of sending them out to fight the Hlyss. There are three more such drawings in the book.

Artist is Tom Artis.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 25, 2016, 05:03:08 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;905233
I really like them. I'm going to use them as visual aids in my campaign. You know what they say about the value of a picture versus words;) I think they might be some of Kathy Marshall's work.

Shemek

Kathy's style is very, very different. More precise, if I can use that word.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on June 25, 2016, 05:19:35 PM
Ooo, I have a question! Almost finished running "High & Dry" and the PCs have found the "treasure map". I think it will send them off to the north of Katalal into the forest, and a temple or two will ask them to investigate an old construction while there (tube way station). Note sure what will happen there yet.

Anyway, do you happen to know any of the relevant Tolsyani words for tube ways e.g. the stations, the cars, etc? I'd like to give them a bit of a puzzle with odd words before they set off.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 25, 2016, 05:25:20 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;905236
Chirine,

When you "officially" stopped being a member of the TNG what was the game date, and where were you in the Tekumel story arc in relation to the novels. I know you mentioned in an earlier post that Phil petulantly allowed Chirine to be impaled, but I think that was much later on. If you already covered this question please direct me to posting, if you wouldn't mind? I was recently reading a Chronology of Tekumel history, specifically during the Civil War, Dhichune's reign, and the immediate aftermath of him being "deposed", and I got to wondering where Chirine was when this was going on.

Shemek.

Oh, let's see; I'd have to look it up in the timeline I've done to see what the actual date was, but I think it was in the summer of 2364 or so. Like I say, I'd have to look it up as to the actual date. The incident falls between the end of "Lords" and the beginning of "Prince"; there's a huge gap of time between these two books. "Prince" and "Death" are a pair; they really should have been one book. This was right at the start of the coup de etat.

We were all out of the TNG by the time the civil war got going, and Phil kept his then-players away from the main flow of the time stream as much as he could so that they wouldn't have the chance to mess the time flow up. They also didn't keep very detailed notes, so that the chronology and dating get pretty loose after out time.

We sat out the civil war out in the Nyemesel Isles, as mercenaries working for the Temple of Mretten against the Haida Pakallan raiders that plagued them. We'd hear all sorts of lurid rumors, but we didn't have much interest in what was happening in Phil's campaign. We just did our thing, had our adventures, and fought our battles. The game went on, as I've said.

This affair highlighted one of the basic problems Phil had with his campaign: what to do with all of the other Tekumel campaigns that were happening. In the early days, he'd include events from other groups - like Lord Gamalu, in upstate New York - as part of the meta-game and the over-all timeline. We, in our time at AGI, encouraged this, as a way to promote and support the world-setting. By the middle to end of the 1980s. phil had gotten away from doing this - he said he didn't want to take the time to coordinate things. We started doing this for him, and it worked very well; we had GMs and players from all over the world writing in, and we managed to keep track of everything with maps and index cards. It was, maybe, the proto-'living' campaign kind of thing  that Henry Lopez did with Blackmoor and Greyhawk, decades later.

Phil's issue was his perceived 'lack of control' over his world; Dave Arneson told him bluntly, one night, that if he had issues with people playing in Tekumel then he should never have published EPT.

So, my campaign continues. Phil may be gone, but the world lives on.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 25, 2016, 06:42:07 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;905233
I really like them. I'm going to use them as visual aids in my campaign. You know what they say about the value of a picture versus words;) I think they might be some of Kathy Marshall's work.

Shemek


They are very good - have you seen the other three? See previous post re artist credit... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 25, 2016, 07:05:06 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;905253
I just heard a rumor that our own Chirine will be playing a bandit chief NPC in a game this afternoon... the ref is another old friend who likes to "subcontract his evil."

As I told the ref, 'tell him "Chirine, my compliments to the Molkars please, and no prisoners." '  :D  I wish I could be there!


You heard right. I am indeed playing The Bandit Chief, and you and your fellow would-be do-gooder player-characters in in for A Good Time if I have anything to say about the matter. I had a very nice chat on the phone with our GM this afternoon, and I'm on-call for action during the game session. At the moment, I am 'off-stage', being An Unseen Menace and A Dire Peril.

For some reason, which I can't fathom, your fellow players are all Very Worried and Very Concerned about my involvement in the game; it seems that I have a reputation, of some sort.

For my part, I am not at all pleased with the situation; we don't even have a Marketing Department, which means that we have trouble establishing and maintaining our brand identity in the catchment area. And while we do have a good retail presence on all of the trade routes locally, I feel that we need to expand and diversify our product line to include those premium services that our customer base has indicated that it wants to see in the market. (I suspect that none of you pesky player-characters knows who Modesty Blaise is, which gives me a built-in advantage.) I'll be issuing press releases on our plans shortly.

Of course, I can always make you a deal which you can not refuse... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 25, 2016, 07:16:04 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;905260
:D

I have been accused of the same for using a chokepoint in an RPG fight. Obviously I was supposed instead to charge and duke it out with the more numerous monsters, and tactics are supposed to amount to rolling higher than the other guy:).

Which is the long-winded way of saying, good on him for learning, and I hope he handed them their defeats on a silver platter many, many times;).


Well done. And where do we find these people, so I don't go there...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 25, 2016, 07:24:52 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));905264
Ooo, I have a question! Almost finished running "High & Dry" and the PCs have found the "treasure map". I think it will send them off to the north of Katalal into the forest, and a temple or two will ask them to investigate an old construction while there (tube way station). Note sure what will happen there yet.

Anyway, do you happen to know any of the relevant Tolsyani words for tube ways e.g. the stations, the cars, etc? I'd like to give them a bit of a puzzle with odd words before they set off.


I looked in the Tsolyani language books - you got me curious, too! :) - and there isn't a specific word. I'd guess that it's a compound noun, like 'viunlu', the device for the creation of the state of openess: a bottle or can opener. I think it'd be like 'tunnel carrier', or something like that. Phil always just called 'em tubeway cars.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 25, 2016, 07:54:54 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;905266
Oh, let's see; I'd have to look it up in the timeline I've done to see what the actual date was, but I think it was in the summer of 2364 or so. Like I say, I'd have to look it up as to the actual date. The incident falls between the end of "Lords" and the beginning of "Prince"; there's a huge gap of time between these two books. "Prince" and "Death" are a pair; they really should have been one book. This was right at the start of the coup de etat.

We were all out of the TNG by the time the civil war got going, and Phil kept his then-players away from the main flow of the time stream as much as he could so that they wouldn't have the chance to mess the time flow up. They also didn't keep very detailed notes, so that the chronology and dating get pretty loose after out time.

We sat out the civil war out in the Nyemesel Isles, as mercenaries working for the Temple of Mretten against the Haida Pakallan raiders that plagued them. We'd hear all sorts of lurid rumors, but we didn't have much interest in what was happening in Phil's campaign. We just did our thing, had our adventures, and fought our battles. The game went on, as I've said.

This affair highlighted one of the basic problems Phil had with his campaign: what to do with all of the other Tekumel campaigns that were happening. In the early days, he'd include events from other groups - like Lord Gamalu, in upstate New York - as part of the meta-game and the over-all timeline. We, in our time at AGI, encouraged this, as a way to promote and support the world-setting. By the middle to end of the 1980s. phil had gotten away from doing this - he said he didn't want to take the time to coordinate things. We started doing this for him, and it worked very well; we had GMs and players from all over the world writing in, and we managed to keep track of everything with maps and index cards. It was, maybe, the proto-'living' campaign kind of thing  that Henry Lopez did with Blackmoor and Greyhawk, decades later.

Phil's issue was his perceived 'lack of control' over his world; Dave Arneson told him bluntly, one night, that if he had issues with people playing in Tekumel then he should never have published EPT.

1.So, my campaign continues. Phil may be gone, but the world lives on.



1. And so it does! This is, ultimately, Phil’s true legacy. He created a world that has, and continues to entertain people even though he longer is here. Not a bad thing to leave behind.

Thank you for the detailed response.:)


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 25, 2016, 07:55:54 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;905275
They are very good - have you seen the other three? See previous post re artist credit... :)

No I haven't. I'll have to see if I can find them. If I do I'll be sure to post them here.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 25, 2016, 11:01:14 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;905281
You heard right. I am indeed playing The Bandit Chief, and you and your fellow would-be do-gooder player-characters in in for A Good Time if I have anything to say about the matter. I had a very nice chat on the phone with our GM this afternoon, and I'm on-call for action during the game session. At the moment, I am 'off-stage', being An Unseen Menace and A Dire Peril.

For some reason, which I can't fathom, your fellow players are all Very Worried and Very Concerned about my involvement in the game; it seems that I have a reputation, of some sort.

For my part, I am not at all pleased with the situation; we don't even have a Marketing Department, which means that we have trouble establishing and maintaining our brand identity in the catchment area. And while we do have a good retail presence on all of the trade routes locally, I feel that we need to expand and diversify our product line to include those premium services that our customer base has indicated that it wants to see in the market. (I suspect that none of you pesky player-characters knows who Modesty Blaise is, which gives me a built-in advantage.) I'll be issuing press releases on our plans shortly.

Of course, I can always make you a deal which you can not refuse... :)

Imagine me hopping about clapping my little paws together with glee.  My character is half a continent away. :D

Many of them are quite nice folks, but REALLY not used to old school gaming, and almost none of them are wargamers.  That's why they're scared; they think of RPG combat as a series of individual duels, and the idea of an organized body of troops scares the hell out of them.

I'm curious, of course, about what KIND of bandits we are.  Are we a gang of desperate wolf's heads, lawless men who band together for mutual protection against the world?  Are we a struggling kingdom trying to establish ourselves... one man's "bandits" are another man's "Bold King" (see Beowulf.)  Or are we a mercenary company of foot that was on the losing side and got left high and dry, because the line between "out of work mercenary" and "bandit" depends on when the lads last had a good meal...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 25, 2016, 11:25:59 PM
Hey Guys,

Has anyone heard of, or have a copy of  the Tekumel fanzine called The Excellent Travelling Volume? If so, what's the magazine's format like. Does it consist of articles from various authors? Is it a "gaming" magazine, i.e., rule sets are discussed, modules included, etc., like the old Dragon Magazine was, or is it a series of articles that are more "scholarly" in nature and deal with Tekumel's history, politics, and religions?  Apparently it's written/published by James Maliszewski, a long time fan of Tekumel. Any information would be appreciated as I was thinking of ordering a copy, but I'd like to know what's in it before I buy it.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 26, 2016, 12:09:08 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;905309
Imagine me hopping about clapping my little paws together with glee.  My character is half a continent away. :D

Many of them are quite nice folks, but REALLY not used to old school gaming, and almost none of them are wargamers.  That's why they're scared; they think of RPG combat as a series of individual duels, and the idea of an organized body of troops scares the hell out of them.


I love it when I come across guys who play RPG's but have never wargamed. I remember years ago having a game of Battletech against a couple of guys who fancied themselves "B-Tech Experts", but did not play any other wargames. Their tactics were linear, and completely predictable. The first game we played was a straight out slug fest, and I remember them mocking my buddy and I because we used terrain, and didn't stupidly march out into the open. We won the first game, and the second game was a more traditional  attack a fortified position scenario. We rolled to see who attacked and defended and we came out as the attackers. Like I said earlier these two guys had not really wargamed before, and my buddy and I had cut our teeth on ASL, Panzer Blitz/Leader, and a host of other AH games. As the attacker the scenario allowed us off board artillery: you had to target specific hexes and the strike would come in the next round. My buddy wanted to call it in on the objective hexes, feeling that the defenders would try and hold this area and concentrate their forces there. I wanted to target the hexes in front of the objective (6 away  from where they had set up). He started laughing at my choice and said "No way! No one would be that stupid". Well I prevailed, and sure enough they were that stupid. Instead of holding their ground they charged out, used their running speed and ended up smack dab in the middle of the barrage. They lost half their force in the first salvo of OBA, and vehicle mounted Long Range Missiles which we had deployed on hills directly in front of the enemy forces, and in forests to either side of their advance, creating excellent defiladed and enfiladed firing zones, respectively. The second round we split our barrage: half of the guns targeting the objective hexes, and the other half six hexes directly in front of the last barrage. They ran back to the objective and got creamed again. In two rounds they lost 85% of their force, and our mechs did not fire a shot. I believe the term you used in an earlier post was "moron"?:p In this case that fits just right. They weren't mocking us anymore when we handed them their asses after two turns. Hopefully Chirine's opponents will have more sense.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 26, 2016, 12:14:38 AM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));905264
Ooo, I have a question! Almost finished running "High & Dry" and the PCs have found the "treasure map". I think it will send them off to the north of Katalal into the forest, and a temple or two will ask them to investigate an old construction while there (tube way station). Note sure what will happen there yet.

Anyway, do you happen to know any of the relevant Tolsyani words for tube ways e.g. the stations, the cars, etc? I'd like to give them a bit of a puzzle with odd words before they set off.


Is that a Bethorm module? I recently purchased a copy of the rules, but have not tried them out. How does the game play? What are the rules like? Are they "user friendly"? Any concerns, or obvious breaks?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2016, 01:18:17 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;905292
1. And so it does! This is, ultimately, Phil’s true legacy. He created a world that has, and continues to entertain people even though he longer is here. Not a bad thing to leave behind.

Thank you for the detailed response.:)

Shemek


You're welcome. Dating is always a problem with Phil's campaign, and I've had to do a big wall chart with blocks of time to show all of his books and articles set against time and what was going on in the campaign(s).

I agree with you about his legacy; I'l like to hope that he's pleased... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2016, 01:25:10 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;905309
Imagine me hopping about clapping my little paws together with glee.  My character is half a continent away. :D

Many of them are quite nice folks, but REALLY not used to old school gaming, and almost none of them are wargamers.  That's why they're scared; they think of RPG combat as a series of individual duels, and the idea of an organized body of troops scares the hell out of them.

I'm curious, of course, about what KIND of bandits we are.  Are we a gang of desperate wolf's heads, lawless men who band together for mutual protection against the world?  Are we a struggling kingdom trying to establish ourselves... one man's "bandits" are another man's "Bold King" (see Beowulf.)  Or are we a mercenary company of foot that was on the losing side and got left high and dry, because the line between "out of work mercenary" and "bandit" depends on when the lads last had a good meal...


I though you'd be amused at the thought of all these people running smack dab into Yours Truly. I am looking forward to this, oh, I am...

I don;t know if I'd call the staff an 'organized body of troops', but they do seem to be a cut above your usual street robbers and highwaymen. Highwaypersons, actually, for all I know. Light cavalry, more or less, and organized into small troops with leaders. A very nice little operation, and so far very successful and - I daresay - profitable, to the point where the local caravan guides are paying us for our escort services in advance. The players, who seem to be nice people, are of that goody-twoshoes 'Lawful Good' type that are such pains in the butt to us business types. As I understand it, they've shown up at our steppe fort to wipe us out, not quite understanding that while there is a small garrison at home, the rest of us are out in the steppes. Behind them.

You'll forgive me if I laugh. :)

Time for another lesson from Uncle Chirine, I suppose...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2016, 01:28:07 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;905311
Hey Guys,

Has anyone heard of, or have a copy of  the Tekumel fanzine called The Excellent Travelling Volume? If so, what's the magazine's format like. Does it consist of articles from various authors? Is it a "gaming" magazine, i.e., rule sets are discussed, modules included, etc., like the old Dragon Magazine was, or is it a series of articles that are more "scholarly" in nature and deal with Tekumel's history, politics, and religions?  Apparently it's written/published by James Maliszewski, a long time fan of Tekumel. Any information would be appreciated as I was thinking of ordering a copy, but I'd like to know what's in it before I buy it.

Shemek.


(Waves hands in back of room) I have! I have!

I have all five of these, and they are very much in the vain of what we used to do. The emphasis is on EPT, with all the articles by  JM. The downside is that the publications runs are very limited, so you have to jump on them when you hear about them. All in all, I like them, which is why I bought them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2016, 01:36:06 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;905316
I love it when I come across guys who play RPG's but have never wargamed. I remember years ago having a game of Battletech against a couple of guys who fancied themselves "B-Tech Experts", but did not play any other wargames. Their tactics were linear, and completely predictable. The first game we played was a straight out slug fest, and I remember them mocking my buddy and I because we used terrain, and didn't stupidly march out into the open. We won the first game, and the second game was a more traditional  attack a fortified position scenario. We rolled to see who attacked and defended and we came out as the attackers. Like I said earlier these two guys had not really wargamed before, and my buddy and I had cut our teeth on ASL, Panzer Blitz/Leader, and a host of other AH games. As the attacker the scenario allowed us off board artillery: you had to target specific hexes and the strike would come in the next round. My buddy wanted to call it in on the objective hexes, feeling that the defenders would try and hold this area and concentrate their forces there. I wanted to target the hexes in front of the objective (6 away  from where they had set up). He started laughing at my choice and said "No way! No one would be that stupid". Well I prevailed, and sure enough they were that stupid. Instead of holding their ground they charged out, used their running speed and ended up smack dab in the middle of the barrage. They lost half their force in the first salvo of OBA, and vehicle mounted Long Range Missiles which we had deployed on hills directly in front of the enemy forces, and in forests to either side of their advance, creating excellent defiladed and enfiladed firing zones, respectively. The second round we split our barrage: half of the guns targeting the objective hexes, and the other half six hexes directly in front of the last barrage. They ran back to the objective and got creamed again. In two rounds they lost 85% of their force, and our mechs did not fire a shot. I believe the term you used in an earlier post was "moron"?:p In this case that fits just right. They weren't mocking us anymore when we handed them their asses after two turns. Hopefully Chirine's opponents will have more sense.

Shemek

You know, it never has ceased to amaze me over all these years, just how many times I've seen people walk right into an artillery barrage, archery beaten zones, and pretty much anything of the like. No matter what period, what set of rules, no nothing, it seems that one can size up "those other people" and make sure to have a little gift waiting for them when they come racing across the table at one. I think i have lost count of the times in RPGs where I've set an ambush, and "those other people" have walked right into the kill zone and gotten pasted.

I should run training courses for people on how to clear an Underworld. Wouldn't be hard; I've got those nice tiles, and this might give me enough of an excuse to build "The Tomb Complex of Nereshanbo" in miniature. The gods know I have enough miniatures to stock the thing.

["Those other people" - Gen. Robert E. Lee]
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 26, 2016, 02:29:32 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;905324
I though you'd be amused at the thought of all these people running smack dab into Yours Truly. I am looking forward to this, oh, I am...

I don;t know if I'd call the staff an 'organized body of troops', but they do seem to be a cut above your usual street robbers and highwaymen. Highwaypersons, actually, for all I know. Light cavalry, more or less, and organized into small troops with leaders. A very nice little operation, and so far very successful and - I daresay - profitable, to the point where the local caravan guides are paying us for our escort services in advance. The players, who seem to be nice people, are of that goody-twoshoes 'Lawful Good' type that are such pains in the butt to us business types. As I understand it, they've shown up at our steppe fort to wipe us out, not quite understanding that while there is a small garrison at home, the rest of us are out in the steppes. Behind them.

You'll forgive me if I laugh. :)

Time for another lesson from Uncle Chirine, I suppose...

* makes popcorn and grills a few gegresha *

If you really want to break their tiny little minds, argue from the point of view that as the authority who holds the castle, we ARE the lawful rulers.  We collect tolls just like their lord Baron de Coucy does, we escort caravans and travellers just like their lord Baron de Coucy does, we live in a castle just like their lord Baron de Coucy does...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2016, 02:37:48 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;905333
* makes popcorn and grills a few gegresha *

If you really want to break their tiny little minds, argue from the point of view that as the authority who holds the castle, we ARE the lawful rulers.  We collect tolls just like their lord Baron de Coucy does, we escort caravans and travellers just like their lord Baron de Coucy does, we live in a castle just like their lord Baron de Coucy does...

I have the impression that they aren't that sophisticated. They seem to be a bunch of people who met in a tavern and are having an adventure - I am sure I'm wrong about this, but that's the way I'm looking at this. The GM wanted to have a 'live opponent' for them, and he's certainly gotten that. So, lesson time, I suspect...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 26, 2016, 02:43:37 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;905334
I have the impression that they aren't that sophisticated. They seem to be a bunch of people who met in a tavern and are having an adventure - I am sure I'm wrong about this, but that's the way I'm looking at this. The GM wanted to have a 'live opponent' for them, and he's certainly gotten that. So, lesson time, I suspect...

:D Dibs on the Pay Per View rights.

"Being neutrals, we have no choice," he said, making a gesture of throwing something of a conciliatory nature to a shark.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 26, 2016, 02:45:19 AM
To quote John M. Ford in The Final Reflection -- "Tactics are real!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2016, 03:52:33 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;905335
:D Dibs on the Pay Per View rights.

"Being neutrals, we have no choice," he said, making a gesture of throwing something of a conciliatory nature to a shark.

Yep; it ought to be quite a bit of fun, actually... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 26, 2016, 03:53:38 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;905336
To quote John M. Ford in The Final Reflection -- "Tactics are real!"

Yes, they are, and it's never ceased to startle me just how may people and how many times it's been ignored and / or forgotten...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 26, 2016, 08:20:17 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;905258
From AsenRG:
Well, I like it. There's a lot to choose from in my career, isn't there, and it should provide lots of ideas for adventures.
Indeed there is...:)

Quote
Good point! I can also think of the time Krupp was selling artillery to the Imperial Chinese, only to have the guns used on the German gunboats. Or Vickers paying Krupp royalties throughout the First World War for the use of the Krupp 'Patent Shell Fuse' on the rounds being fired at the Germans...
"The royalties are killing us" - Germans in WWI.

Quote
I think that this is very true. We were very, very integrated into the setting, while the other groups were quite up-front about not being all that integrated / involved in the setting.
And that's why I suspect they might have received a slightly different deal including more direction...;)

Quote
I think it will. I'll have a lot more time for writing, as well as actually getting out of the house and seeing people. I have great hopes for stress reduction, as well! :)
Then it should help either way.

Quote
'Niche protection'? 'Lack of'? I'm frankly astonished by the notion.
The notion is why I refused for a long time to have anything to do with D&D...:D

Quote
Everybody played, and everybody got to do things.
Obviously that's not how some people want it, though.

Quote
'Lying to your players'? Not here, thank you. Didn't play like that, don't play like that, won't play like that.
Yeah - I don't think I'm lying, either. But according to the guy, by constructing custom stats for the opponents (in a game where each enemy combatant has his, her or its unique skills), I'm lying to the players...
Yes, I called BS already, according to my own advice;).

Quote
All very appropriate, I think. Like the medieval English army commander who simply pole-axed one of his subordinates for not doing anything during a battle.
Oh yes, I'm sure there's a long and illustrious tradition! The first time I got acquainted with it, I was 7 - when I read "The Good Soldier Švejk"...they mentioned court martial there. And there was even a mention of "that officer was a bastard, so of course he got shot in the first battle - some of the holes were in his back, reportedly"...
I'd call that "a court martial from your social inferiors".

Quote
Nope; the OAL hunted hiom down, out in the Tsolei Islands where he'd fled to, and wrapped him in wet Vraoz fibers and let him dry out. The stuff is as strong as steel wire, and shrinks as it dries...
A death of thousand cuts, then. Fits with OAL.
Didn't they confiscate the Eye and apply it again?

Quote
Yes, but usually it didn't come to that; after a few games, nobody would play with or run games with them, and they'd eventually get the message and drift off.
"A few games" is longer than such people tend to last.
One of my favourite GMs was fond of telling the story of such a player. Said player decided to go with a shirt and epee to war. Then, while sneaking around looking for recon, hidden in a swamp, he noticed a man in good, expensive armour and with a glaive. Said character had met some guy they didn't know, either. The two exchanged some words, and the guy with the glaive killed the other, seemingly in vengeance.
What did the PC decide? Why, of course, he jumped up, pulled his epee, and charged. While in waist-deep water.
They guy met him head on while he was still in knee-deep water, unarmoured and with no shield. You can guess what happened exactly two swings of the glaive later; it's not like the unarmoured guy should have counted on his mobility to even stand a chance, not at all...

The player had the gall to complain that "it's too easy to die in that system" (which they were playtesting). One of the other players looked at him and replied "the system's fine, it's you who's the moron".

Quote
I'm still boggled by this; we always thought and fought tactically, as it just seemed like a useful survival mechanism. Arneson was what was called a 'killer referee', and Phil's Tekumel was just plain deadly.
Well, it seems some people think only brute strength matters. It's a way of thinking, I guess.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;905266
This affair highlighted one of the basic problems Phil had with his campaign: what to do with all of the other Tekumel campaigns that were happening. In the early days, he'd include events from other groups - like Lord Gamalu, in upstate New York - as part of the meta-game and the over-all timeline. We, in our time at AGI, encouraged this, as a way to promote and support the world-setting. By the middle to end of the 1980s. phil had gotten away from doing this - he said he didn't want to take the time to coordinate things. We started doing this for him, and it worked very well; we had GMs and players from all over the world writing in, and we managed to keep track of everything with maps and index cards. It was, maybe, the proto-'living' campaign kind of thing  that Henry Lopez did with Blackmoor and Greyhawk, decades later.

Phil's issue was his perceived 'lack of control' over his world; Dave Arneson told him bluntly, one night, that if he had issues with people playing in Tekumel then he should never have published EPT.

So, my campaign continues. Phil may be gone, but the world lives on.
...I'm afraid I must agree with Dave Arneson. He can decide whether to accept what has happened in their games or not. But "losing control"? That's impossible.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;905283
Well done. And where do we find these people, so I don't go there...
FLGS, mostly?
(Actually, I'm afraid they're everywhere).

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;905317
Is that a Bethorm module? I recently purchased a copy of the rules, but have not tried them out. How does the game play? What are the rules like? Are they "user friendly"? Any concerns, or obvious breaks?

Shemek
It's a Bethorm module.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;905323
You're welcome. Dating is always a problem with Phil's campaign, and I've had to do a big wall chart with blocks of time to show all of his books and articles set against time and what was going on in the campaign(s).

I agree with you about his legacy; I'l like to hope that he's pleased... :)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;905324
I though you'd be amused at the thought of all these people running smack dab into Yours Truly. I am looking forward to this, oh, I am...

I don;t know if I'd call the staff an 'organized body of troops', but they do seem to be a cut above your usual street robbers and highwaymen. Highwaypersons, actually, for all I know. Light cavalry, more or less, and organized into small troops with leaders. A very nice little operation, and so far very successful and - I daresay - profitable, to the point where the local caravan guides are paying us for our escort services in advance. The players, who seem to be nice people, are of that goody-twoshoes 'Lawful Good' type that are such pains in the butt to us business types. As I understand it, they've shown up at our steppe fort to wipe us out, not quite understanding that while there is a small garrison at home, the rest of us are out in the steppes. Behind them.

You'll forgive me if I laugh. :)

Time for another lesson from Uncle Chirine, I suppose...
Surrounded and outnumbered by light cavalry in a field?
I think these guys would need their roleplaying skills for negotiating a surrender.

As for your Modesty Blaise advantage, you mean this Modesty Blaise (http://www.crimetime.co.uk/features/modestyblaise.php) right?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;905327
You know, it never has ceased to amaze me over all these years, just how many times I've seen people walk right into an artillery barrage, archery beaten zones, and pretty much anything of the like. No matter what period, what set of rules, no nothing, it seems that one can size up "those other people" and make sure to have a little gift waiting for them when they come racing across the table at one. I think i have lost count of the times in RPGs where I've set an ambush, and "those other people" have walked right into the kill zone and gotten pasted.

I should run training courses for people on how to clear an Underworld. Wouldn't be hard; I've got those nice tiles, and this might give me enough of an excuse to build "The Tomb Complex of Nereshanbo" in miniature. The gods know I have enough miniatures to stock the thing.

["Those other people" - Gen. Robert E. Lee]
I'd consider signing for those courses;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;905333
* makes popcorn and grills a few gegresha *

If you really want to break their tiny little minds, argue from the point of view that as the authority who holds the castle, we ARE the lawful rulers.  We collect tolls just like their lord Baron de Coucy does, we escort caravans and travellers just like their lord Baron de Coucy does, we live in a castle just like their lord Baron de Coucy does...
Now that would be just cruel:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 26, 2016, 02:23:42 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;905281
(I suspect that none of you pesky player-characters knows who Modesty Blaise is, which gives me a built-in advantage.)
I assume you mean the comics version, not either of the two movies.  Also, I find it difficult to believe that Gronan doesn't know who Modesty Blaise is.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 26, 2016, 05:00:07 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;905327
You know, it never has ceased to amaze me over all these years, just how many times I've seen people walk right into an artillery barrage, archery beaten zones, and pretty much anything of the like. No matter what period, what set of rules, no nothing, it seems that one can size up "those other people" and make sure to have a little gift waiting for them when they come racing across the table at one. I think i have lost count of the times in RPGs where I've set an ambush, and "those other people" have walked right into the kill zone and gotten pasted.

Tell them about the "55 MPH rolling artillery barrage," oh, do, please!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 27, 2016, 12:55:53 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;905424
Tell them about the "55 MPH rolling artillery barrage," oh, do, please!

The one on the road to Bastonge?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 27, 2016, 12:57:16 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;905424
Tell them about the "55 MPH rolling artillery barrage," oh, do, please!


The one on the road to Bastonge?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 27, 2016, 01:11:11 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;905454
The one on the road to Bastonge?

I was more thinking of the demolition of the Gullivernian Assault Force.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on June 27, 2016, 08:46:48 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;905311
Hey Guys,

Has anyone heard of, or have a copy of  the Tekumel fanzine called The Excellent Travelling Volume? If so, what's the magazine's format like. Does it consist of articles from various authors? Is it a "gaming" magazine, i.e., rule sets are discussed, modules included, etc., like the old Dragon Magazine was, or is it a series of articles that are more "scholarly" in nature and deal with Tekumel's history, politics, and religions?  Apparently it's written/published by James Maliszewski, a long time fan of Tekumel. Any information would be appreciated as I was thinking of ordering a copy, but I'd like to know what's in it before I buy it.

Shemek.


Lord Shemek, Yes. Buy it. You will not regret it. Lots of goodies that can be used in your own campaigns. I think JM has just reprinted some of the older volumes due to popular demand. So get them while they last. They are a real labor of love. TETV is an old school type fanzine. Highly recommended. Be well.

H:0)

PS I see Uncle beat me to the punch. But I second his thoughts.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 27, 2016, 11:47:00 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;905455
The one on the road to Bastonge?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;905459
I was more thinking of the demolition of the Gullivernian Assault Force.

I lodge henceforth an official request that both stories be told;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 27, 2016, 01:03:53 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;905495
Lord Shemek, Yes. Buy it. You will not regret it. Lots of goodies that can be used in your own campaigns. I think JM has just reprinted some of the older volumes due to popular demand. So get them while they last. They are a real labor of love. TETV is an old school type fanzine. Highly recommended. Be well.

H:0)

PS I see Uncle beat me to the punch. But I second his thoughts.


Mighty Hrugga of the Epics,

Long time no see;) This is good to know. After what you and Chirine have said I will pick up a copy of the latest one. I think that it's still for sale. Thank you for the heads up.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 27, 2016, 01:08:07 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;905323
1You're welcome. Dating is always a problem with Phil's campaign, and I've had to do a big wall chart with blocks of time to show all of his books and articles set against time and what was going on in the campaign(s).

2I agree with you about his legacy; I like to hope that he's pleased... :)


1. I'd love to see that chart. That would be most interesting.

2. Me too, for what it's worth.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 27, 2016, 01:16:41 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;905327
1. You know, it never has ceased to amaze me over all these years, just how many times I've seen people walk right into an artillery barrage, archery beaten zones, and pretty much anything of the like. No matter what period, what set of rules, no nothing, it seems that one can size up "those other people" and make sure to have a little gift waiting for them when they come racing across the table at one. I think i have lost count of the times in RPGs where I've set an ambush, and "those other people" have walked right into the kill zone and gotten pasted.

 2. I should run training courses for people on how to clear an Underworld. Wouldn't be hard; I've got those nice tiles, and this might give me enough of an excuse to build "The Tomb Complex of Nereshanbo" in miniature. The gods know I have enough miniatures to stock the thing.

["Those other people" - Gen. Robert E. Lee]


1. Exactly! Sometimes it's "too easy". Fortunately I have been playing with the current group for enough years that they generally sniff out any ambushes before they can be sprung. However, they do occasionally slip up, and I'm right there to "push them off the cliff".:D

2. Why not? May be you could do it via email, or skype? You can call it "Chirine's Tactics: Basic 101" The stories would be great fodder for this thread!

Shemek

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 27, 2016, 01:22:09 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;905325
(Waves hands in back of room) I have! I have!

I have all five of these, and they are very much in the vain of what we used to do. The emphasis is on EPT, with all the articles by  JM. The downside is that the publications runs are very limited, so you have to jump on them when you hear about them. All in all, I like them, which is why I bought them.


:D Pick me Mr Carter! Pick me!

Seeing as how I never got past EPT, as far as game systems go, this is right up my alley. I will check it out.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on June 27, 2016, 01:23:48 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;905518
Mighty Hrugga of the Epics,

Long time no see;) This is good to know. After what you and Chirine have said I will pick up a copy of the latest one. I think that it's still for sale. Thank you for the heads up.

Shemek

 
My Lord if you are able. Try to get all five. There is a nice ongoing underworld delve that started from volume one...
I have been travelling the planes(too many pesky demons around), but I have been trying to keep up with the thread. As I am here in spirit at all times.

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2016, 02:32:04 AM
Sorry to be away for a bit; real life has been intruding...

From AsenRG:
"The royalties are killing us" - Germans in WWI.

There was a scandal when the troops found some dud shells in their laps. The Kaiser was not happy.

Yeah - I don't think I'm lying, either. But according to the guy, by constructing custom stats for the opponents (in a game where each enemy combatant has his, her or its unique skills), I'm lying to the players...
Yes, I called BS already, according to my own advice;).


I'm still trying to wrap my head around these notions. I was taught that the referee / GM was strictly a neutral party. We made our own messes, thank you.

Oh yes, I'm sure there's a long and illustrious tradition! The first time I got acquainted with it, I was 7 - when I read "The Good Soldier Švejk"...they mentioned court martial there. And there was even a mention of "that officer was a bastard, so of course he got shot in the first battle - some of the holes were in his back, reportedly"...
I'd call that "a court martial from your social inferiors".


Lots of similar historical examples. One of my favorites is from the Lace Wars when a particularly nasty British infantry Major asked his troops not to kill him until after the battle. Once they won (Fontenoy, I'm thinking) he raised his hat and called "The victory is ours, my lads!" whereupon a bullet hit him in the forehead. Despite his facing his regiment at the moment of impact, his troops all insisted that he'd been hit by enemy fire so his widow could collect his pension.

A death of thousand cuts, then. Fits with OAL.
Didn't they confiscate the Eye and apply it again?


Yep. Nobody found the Eye, which was annoying. It was a one-off, Phil stipulated after the incident was all over.

"A few games" is longer than such people tend to last.
One of my favourite GMs was fond of telling the story of such a player. Said player decided to go with a shirt and epee to war. Then, while sneaking around looking for recon, hidden in a swamp, he noticed a man in good, expensive armour and with a glaive. Said character had met some guy they didn't know, either. The two exchanged some words, and the guy with the glaive killed the other, seemingly in vengeance.
What did the PC decide? Why, of course, he jumped up, pulled his epee, and charged. While in waist-deep water.
They guy met him head on while he was still in knee-deep water, unarmoured and with no shield. You can guess what happened exactly two swings of the glaive later; it's not like the unarmoured guy should have counted on his mobility to even stand a chance, not at all...


The player had the gall to complain that "it's too easy to die in that system" (which they were playtesting). One of the other players looked at him and replied "the system's fine, it's you who's the moron".

I feel I've been lucky; never had anybody like that in an RPG session or campaign. Miniatures games, now...

...I'm afraid I must agree with Dave Arneson. He can decide whether to accept what has happened in their games or not. But "losing control"? That's impossible.

I'd agree. I never really understood why he felt that way; we managed to run a pretty big PBM game while keeping him in the loop on all the decisions, so I'm not at all sure what his issues might have been.

FLGS, mostly?
(Actually, I'm afraid they're everywhere).


Sadly, I fear you're right.

Surrounded and outnumbered by light cavalry in a field?
I think these guys would need their roleplaying skills for negotiating a surrender.


I'm thinking of opening the negotiations with "We're the Sweeny, and we haven't had our dinner!" and go from there. We'll see if anyone gets the joke.

As for your Modesty Blaise advantage, you mean this Modesty Blaise (http://www.crimetime.co.uk/features/modestyblaise.php) right?

Why yes, I believe I do. :) Chirine and Vrisa would have gotten along with Willie and Modesty just fine, I think... :)

I'd consider signing for those courses;).

Let me see what I can work up. :)

Now that would be just cruel:D!

But funny. Really, really funny... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2016, 02:34:31 AM
Quote from: Bren;905409
I assume you mean the comics version, not either of the two movies.  Also, I find it difficult to believe that Gronan doesn't know who Modesty Blaise is.


Yes, very much so. The pop movie was fun, with lots of delightful scenes - McWhirter, the Scots accountant telling the minions to aim carefully because the rounds cost three and six each, for example - but the comics are much, much better.

We shall see, shall we? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2016, 02:36:18 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;905507
I lodge henceforth an official request that both stories be told;).


On the way, if I may use that phrase in this context...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2016, 02:37:15 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;905520
1. Exactly! Sometimes it's "too easy". Fortunately I have been playing with the current group for enough years that they generally sniff out any ambushes before they can be sprung. However, they do occasionally slip up, and I'm right there to "push them off the cliff".:D

2. Why not? May be you could do it via email, or skype? You can call it "Chirine's Tactics: Basic 101" The stories would be great fodder for this thread!

Shemek

Shemek

I'll see what I can do... :)
Title: Chirine's Tactics 101 - Case One: The Box Barrage - Bastonge, 1944
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2016, 02:48:38 AM
So, I'm a US armor commander detailed to relieve Bastonge; I have to get 2/3rds of my force to the town, or the paratroopers are lost.

I look over the board that Gronan has done, and I see right away that it's ripe for multiple ambushes. So, turn one, I seed a jeep down the road to see if anyone's home. Sure enough, dear old Tom T. shoots and misses with his biggest, baddest unit - a Flak 88mm, hidden (You guessed it!) under The Pink Tree of Death. Game turn two, thirty-six Sherman tanks roll onto the board, wheel-hub to wheel-hub, and a half dozen Wildcat tank destroyers pull onto the hill overlooking the table on my left flank. (Gronan's eyes bulge out at the massive display of armor.) Game turn three, 36 rounds of 76mm high-explosive blanket the far end of the table, blowing all the camoflage off the German units. The tank destroyers then kill them with their 90mm guns. For the next five turns, I moved the barrage back down the table, closer and closer to my front line, and kill or expose all of the ambushing Germans. Any of then shooting at me gets hit as well; yes, I did lose some tanks, but then we had a lot more back in the reserve. Somewhere about turn eight, there was nobody left to shoot at me anymore, so the remaining 2/3rd of my command has a nice quiet drive into town.

This is a 'box barrage', pure and simple.
Title: Chirine's Tactics 101 - Case Study Two; The Rolling Barrage - An Alien Planet, 2275
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 29, 2016, 03:04:36 AM
So, I'm a task force commander, and we're about to be attacked by those other people. I have three of my Scorpion tracked infantry carriers, with a squad of troopers, two energy cannon, and six multiple-warhead guided misslle; two Archer self-propelled artillery units, each with a 175mm L/150 gun and six MWGMs; one Tarantula command unit, with a 175mm L150 gun and a battle computer; the infantry squads have missile and grenade launchers as well as cone rifles. Those other people have a mass of power-armored troopers, and a dozen six-tube rocket launchers on grav-sleds.

We're using Gronan's "Planetfall" rules, his successor to the McEwan "Starguard" and "Orilla" rules. (We played a lot of these back in the day; one of the players was a guy named Larry Bond. Yes, that Larry Bond.)

I take up my defensive positions under as much cover as you can get with an armored task force, and Fred gears up for action. His gravsleds and troopers all have a maximum move speed of 55 mph, so I give Gronan my first turn fire orders - I drop a barrage on the spot where Fred will be at the end of game turn one. He duly arrives, and gets to see what lots of high-explosive does to gravsleds and power-armored troopers. Being a stout fellow, he continues the advance, and meets my second turn of fire which arrives where he does - again, he's moving at a constant rate, just like the artillery software likes.

Nothing lived long enough to get within range of my infantry.

This was a simple 'rolling barrage'; nothing fancy, and I didn't even need to use my slide rule.

Footnote: Fred, to his eternal credit, never did anything like this again; he asked us to reply the game as a training exercise, and developed a very clever attack mode that made any opponent's job a whole lot harder.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on June 29, 2016, 04:07:28 AM
Tactics is something that Jon Snow's just learning although Sansa has a better grasp of the intricacies and if episode nine was anything to go by the youngest Stark boy never got a chance to learn. I don't think that zig-zag under fire is a concept in Westeros.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 29, 2016, 07:24:57 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;905780
So, I'm a task force commander, and we're about to be attacked by those other people. I have three of my Scorpion tracked infantry carriers, with a squad of troopers, two energy cannon, and six multiple-warhead guided misslle; two Archer self-propelled artillery units, each with a 175mm L/150 gun and six MWGMs; one Tarantula command unit, with a 175mm L150 gun and a battle computer; the infantry squads have missile and grenade launchers as well as cone rifles. Those other people have a mass of power-armored troopers, and a dozen six-tube rocket launchers on grav-sleds.

We're using Gronan's "Planetfall" rules, his successor to the McEwan "Starguard" and "Orilla" rules. (We played a lot of these back in the day; one of the players was a guy named Larry Bond. Yes, that Larry Bond.)

I take up my defensive positions under as much cover as you can get with an armored task force, and Fred gears up for action. His gravsleds and troopers all have a maximum move speed of 55 mph, so I give Gronan my first turn fire orders - I drop a barrage on the spot where Fred will be at the end of game turn one. He duly arrives, and gets to see what lots of high-explosive does to gravsleds and power-armored troopers. Being a stout fellow, he continues the advance, and meets my second turn of fire which arrives where he does - again, he's moving at a constant rate, just like the artillery software likes.

Nothing lived long enough to get within range of my infantry.

This was a simple 'rolling barrage'; nothing fancy, and I didn't even need to use my slide rule.

Footnote: Fred, to his eternal credit, never did anything like this again; he asked us to reply the game as a training exercise, and developed a very clever attack mode that made any opponent's job a whole lot harder.



Ahh, he sighs with a tear in his eye, and cigar firmly clamped in between teeth. "Don't you love it when a plan comes together?"  :D

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 29, 2016, 07:26:15 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;905789
Tactics is something that Jon Snow's just learning although Sansa has a better grasp of the intricacies and if episode nine was anything to go by the youngest Stark boy never got a chance to learn. I don't think that zig-zag under fire is a concept in Westeros.

But it would seem that Ramsay learnt them well.;)

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 29, 2016, 07:28:58 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;905523
My Lord if you are able. Try to get all five. There is a nice ongoing underworld delve that started from volume one...
I have been travelling the planes(too many pesky demons around), but I have been trying to keep up with the thread. As I am here in spirit at all times.

H;0)


Hurry back Mighty Hrugga. There's no end of demon's to swat. :p

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 29, 2016, 07:59:53 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;905777
So, I'm a US armor commander detailed to relieve Bastonge; I have to get 2/3rds of my force to the town, or the paratroopers are lost.

I look over the board that Gronan has done, and I see right away that it's ripe for multiple ambushes. So, turn one, I seed a jeep down the road to see if anyone's home. Sure enough, dear old Tom T. shoots and misses with his biggest, baddest unit - a Flak 88mm, hidden (You guessed it!) under The Pink Tree of Death. Game turn two, thirty-six Sherman tanks roll onto the board, wheel-hub to wheel-hub, and a half dozen Wildcat tank destroyers pull onto the hill overlooking the table on my left flank. (Gronan's eyes bulge out at the massive display of armor.) Game turn three, 36 rounds of 76mm high-explosive blanket the far end of the table, blowing all the camoflage off the German units. The tank destroyers then kill them with their 90mm guns. For the next five turns, I moved the barrage back down the table, closer and closer to my front line, and kill or expose all of the ambushing Germans. Any of then shooting at me gets hit as well; yes, I did lose some tanks, but then we had a lot more back in the reserve. Somewhere about turn eight, there was nobody left to shoot at me anymore, so the remaining 2/3rd of my command has a nice quiet drive into town.

This is a 'box barrage', pure and simple.


So, some things come to mind, and in no particular order.
1. where was his counter-fire?
2. what was his armour orbat. How many and what mark of  Panzer IV's, STUG's, Panthers, Tigers?
3. how many 88's did he have?
4. his force was primarily what? Inf, Arm, PzGrnd, Fallsch ?
5. did he stay fixed, or did he redeploy?
6. was this a one off scenario, or was it linked to a campaign?
7. if it was a campaign, why not do what Jerry always did: fall back and redeploy?
8. what distances are we talking about vis-a-vis FEBA - FLET?
9. the wildcats were in defilade, but were the shermans as well?
10. at what odds were you at?

I would have loved to have seen this one play out. I have played similar scenarios in Panzer Leader. They are tough to do right for either side. Hoping someone will fall into your trap is a risky thing. You've got to be on your toes.  In the words of Old Blood and Guts:  “There is no such thing as luck, merely opportunity meeting preparedness."  George S. Patton Jr.
After reading this account I got a sudden hankering for some WW2 wargaming. Well it's a long weekend coming up... I might have to dig out Panzer Leader and Panzer Blitz., and find an opponent. :D

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 29, 2016, 08:22:37 PM
Don't have time for a full reply.  The Germans had a pretty sizeable force; I expected it to be a challenge for the US to get through with the full 2/3 force.  Frankly when he opened up with his sole emplaced 88 on a jeep from 3 KM away I knew it was going to be a bad day for the Wehrmacht.  If he'd opened up with one of his nearby MG34s on the jeep the US would have known nothing other than that the jeep stopped reporting back.

The battlefield had a total depth of over 3 KM.  One of the nice things about Coffman Memorial Student Union at the University of Minnesota... they had LOTS of tables.  Probably about 3.5 x 1.5-2 KM.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 29, 2016, 08:48:47 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;905892
Don't have time for a full reply.  The Germans had a pretty sizeable force; I expected it to be a challenge for the US to get through with the full 2/3 force.  Frankly when he opened up with his sole emplaced 88 on a jeep from 3 KM away I knew it was going to be a bad day for the Wehrmacht.  If he'd opened up with one of his nearby MG34s on the jeep the US would have known nothing other than that the jeep stopped reporting back.

The battlefield had a total depth of over 3 KM.  One of the nice things about Coffman Memorial Student Union at the University of Minnesota... they had LOTS of tables.  Probably about 3.5 x 1.5-2 KM.


That's the first thing I thought of. I would never have used an 88 on a jeep. I agree, this was the beginning of the end for him. Can't wait for the full break down of events  from you and Chirine.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on June 30, 2016, 12:23:22 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;905894
That's the first thing I thought of. I would never have used an 88 on a jeep. I agree, this was the beginning of the end for him. Can't wait for the full break down of events  from you and Chirine.

Shemek

Tom was young and very green at the time.  However, he wasn't stupid, and read and studied and practiced over the years.  Unfortunately, he never quite figured out what to do about the fact that Chrine had ALSO read all those books on WW2...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 30, 2016, 02:45:12 AM
From Shemek hiTankolel:

So, some things come to mind, and in no particular order.
1. where was his counter-fire?

I dunno. Every now and then a Sherman would get hit, so I knew he was out there.

2. what was his armour orbat. How many and what mark of  Panzer IV's, STUG's, Panthers, Tigers?
As I recall, a platoon or two of King Tigers, a company of Panthers, a company of infantry in half-tracks, a recon platoon of Pumas, and some Luftwaffe guys with an 88mm flak gun. We had the lovely model, and it seemed a shame not to use it.

3. how many 88's did he have?
One towed, six mobile in the King Tigers.

4. his force was primarily what? Inf, Arm, PzGrnd, Fallsch ?
I'd guess Panzer Grenadiers, form the half-tracks.

5. did he stay fixed, or did he redeploy?
He stayed fixed in place, as I recall.

6. was this a one off scenario, or was it linked to a campaign?
It was a one off, but with campaign-style victory conditions. I had to get through, and he had to stop me or kill most of my forces.

7. if it was a campaign, why not do what Jerry always did: fall back and redeploy?
I would have done this anyway when things went rotten, but then I always play as if it's a campaign battle.

8. what distances are we talking about vis-a-vis FEBA - FLET?
No real idea; see Gronan's reply. The table was something like five by nine feet, as I recall; plenty of room.

9. the wildcats were in defilade, but were the shermans as well?
Nope. The Shermans were all out in plain sight in open terrain. I did pop a lot of smoke, though, and just kept shooting.

10. at what odds were you at?
Maybe three to one in numbers, but even odds qualitatively. It was set up as a very tough fight for the Americans.

I would have loved to have seen this one play out. I have played similar scenarios in Panzer Leader. They are tough to do right for either side. Hoping someone will fall into your trap is a risky thing. You've got to be on your toes.  In the words of Old Blood and Guts:  “There is no such thing as luck, merely opportunity meeting preparedness."  George S. Patton Jr.
After reading this account I got a sudden hankering for some WW2 wargaming. Well it's a long weekend coming up... I might have to dig out Panzer Leader and Panzer Blitz., and find an opponent. :D


It was a lot of fun to play, as going into it I knew it was going to be very, very tough. I had to think very fast and on my feet, and be decisive. And it all worked out, I thought...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 30, 2016, 02:46:39 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;905892
Don't have time for a full reply.  The Germans had a pretty sizeable force; I expected it to be a challenge for the US to get through with the full 2/3 force.  Frankly when he opened up with his sole emplaced 88 on a jeep from 3 KM away I knew it was going to be a bad day for the Wehrmacht.  If he'd opened up with one of his nearby MG34s on the jeep the US would have known nothing other than that the jeep stopped reporting back.

The battlefield had a total depth of over 3 KM.  One of the nice things about Coffman Memorial Student Union at the University of Minnesota... they had LOTS of tables.  Probably about 3.5 x 1.5-2 KM.

Which is why I sent out a jeep with with a radio.

Tom was one of those gamers who, when they had a big powerful weapon to hand, just had to use it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 30, 2016, 02:49:22 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;905894
That's the first thing I thought of. I would never have used an 88 on a jeep. I agree, this was the beginning of the end for him. Can't wait for the full break down of events  from you and Chirine.

Shemek

Bounding overwatch. Traveling overwatch. Works just as well in an RPG as it does in a 'wargame'. (I don't see a difference between the two, but what do I know?) We used to do this in Underworlds and other nasty situations, and Phil found it very hard to surprise us.

Next case study: The Door
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 30, 2016, 03:02:51 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;905909
Tom was young and very green at the time.  However, he wasn't stupid, and read and studied and practiced over the years.  Unfortunately, he never quite figured out what to do about the fact that Chrine had ALSO read all those books on WW2...

Tom had a habit of buying and reading stuff that was more in the genre of campaign histories; he was very well-versed in the big picture and grand strategies, but he tended to neglect the 'less popular' in style and the more tactical. He was of the school of gaming that later saw the rise of the 'gimmick' army or the 'points value' army, where one simply bought - either in the campaign or in real life - stuff that was really powerful if you were going by the stats or numbers. He tended to rely on the numbers and gimmicks instead of the basics of tactics and terrain, and it cost him I don't know how many battles as a result.

Looking back on it over the intervening years, Tom wasn't all that much fun to play against. His massive armies usually seemed to fall right apart at the seams when he ran up against somebody (like Gronan or I) who knew something of the period or setting being played. In my experience, battles with him as the opposing side would usually be tipped one way or the other on the first or second turn, when he would 'push the button' to activate whatever special unit or weapon he had.

Fred, bless him, was always a fearsome opponent no matter what the period or setting. He never, ever made the same mistake twice; he was a very fast and astute learner, very well read, and very very serious about doing the best job that he could. In my experience, you could beat Fred once in any game or setting, normally his first game in that set of rules or world-setting. After that first game, you were always sure of a very tough and close game with him on the other side of the table.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on June 30, 2016, 03:47:34 AM
Chirine's Tactics 101 - Case Study Three: The Door

So, we'll have a look at tactics in the microcosm: Phil and the problem of The Door.

First, some basic information. Phil used a pretty much 'standard' ten-foot-wide corridor in most of his Underworlds, which allowed for the use in EPT of parties in ranks of three in line. Normally, we'd put the best fighter - often me - in the middle of the front rank, and the next-best one in the middle of the rear rank. The basic 'tactical formation we used was armored people on the outside, un-armored people on the inside for their protection. Usually, this meant that the magic-users were protected from sudden surprises. We'd use the solid walls of the passage or whatever to control our flanks, and make sure that we had some sort of protection to our rear when (never if!) we'd get jumped by Something. So, we'd be moving along with the front ranks looking ahead of us, the middle ranks looking to the sides, and the back rank keeping an eye out to the rear.

So, we come up to a door. First thing we do, is the party has people looking back the way we came and forward to the way we were going. Somebody in the middle looks the door over, and asked Phil if the hinges are on our side. Phil tells us; if the hinges are on our side, one person listens at the door while another lifts the pins if possible. We pull the door away quietly, and hope that we can get the drop on anybody who might be in the room. The middle people in the party are the ones who go in the doorway - the people on the 'front and back' detail will keep an eye out for anything attracted by the noise, and will be the last people through the door when and if the middle (now front rank) call them in.

If the hinge pins are on the other side, then we listen and then try the door; if it is locked, then we move up the escalation ladder to sterner measures and pop the door open. Same drill follows.

Yes, it takes some coordination between players, and good communication in the moment, but we managed to do it after one or two tries.

We stayed flexible and fluid, and it kept us alive for years with the best Phil could throw at us.

And speaking of Underworlds, would there be any interest in a 25mm / 28mm version of the Tomb Complex of Nereshanbo? It scales out to a 60" x 60" inch table, which I have. Got all the needed miniatures, too. Would this be something that people would like to see and maybe play in?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on June 30, 2016, 04:04:34 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;905771
Sorry to be away for a bit; real life has been intruding...

From AsenRG:
"The royalties are killing us" - Germans in WWI.

There was a scandal when the troops found some dud shells in their laps. The Kaiser was not happy.

Was there also a scandal because there shouldn't be dud shells;)?
Also, these people would probably be impaled in Tekumel...:)

Quote
I'm still trying to wrap my head around these notions. I was taught that the referee / GM was strictly a neutral party. We made our own messes, thank you.

I'm no longer trying to. I just IgnoreListed the guy after I stopped laughing. Admittedly, it took me a while to stop...:p

Quote
Lots of similar historical examples. One of my favorites is from the Lace Wars when a particularly nasty British infantry Major asked his troops not to kill him until after the battle. Once they won (Fontenoy, I'm thinking) he raised his hat and called "The victory is ours, my lads!" whereupon a bullet hit him in the forehead. Despite his facing his regiment at the moment of impact, his troops all insisted that he'd been hit by enemy fire so his widow could collect his pension.

Man, that's the real British spirit! Kill a man if you have to, don't complain if you're the one who gets the lead, don't make it a vendetta. It's something that can be admired.

Quote
Yep. Nobody found the Eye, which was annoying. It was a one-off, Phil stipulated after the incident was all over.

I can see why...

Quote
I feel I've been lucky; never had anybody like that in an RPG session or campaign. Miniatures games, now...

Fun fact: the similarly lightly armoured other PC, who was scouting with him, did kill the same guy to avenge him. But he didn't do it by charging with him and getting himself killed. He used javelins from ambush, and then a spear up-close.

Quote
I'd agree. I never really understood why he felt that way; we managed to run a pretty big PBM game while keeping him in the loop on all the decisions, so I'm not at all sure what his issues might have been.

Well, the geniuses are allowed a few quirks...that is, a few quirks more than the rest of us.

Quote
I'm thinking of opening the negotiations with "We're the Sweeny, and we haven't had our dinner!" and go from there. We'll see if anyone gets the joke.

Sweeney Todd. Even I've heard of it.

Quote
Why yes, I believe I do. :) Chirine and Vrisa would have gotten along with Willie and Modesty just fine, I think...

Yeah, I suspect they would.
I sometimes joke that half the successful PCs would have gotten along with a certain James Moriarty, Professor. Of course, the other half would kill them...

Quote
Let me see what I can work up. :)

I shall be waiting.
BTW, are you familiar with Kobold's Book of Combat?

Quote
But funny. Really, really funny... :)

True, that.
So you should do it:D!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;905777

This is a 'box barrage', pure and simple.

Man, I hate box barrages:). Don't ask me why, I just don't like them.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;905780

This was a simple 'rolling barrage'; nothing fancy, and I didn't even need to use my slide rule.

Footnote: Fred, to his eternal credit, never did anything like this again; he asked us to reply the game as a training exercise, and developed a very clever attack mode that made any opponent's job a whole lot harder.

It's amazing how often basic tactics get to people unfamiliar with them.
Fred showed the true spirit, though.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;905916

Tom was one of those gamers who, when they had a big powerful weapon to hand, just had to use it.


Quote from: chirine ba kal;905919
Tom had a habit of buying and reading stuff that was more in the genre of campaign histories; he was very well-versed in the big picture and grand strategies, but he tended to neglect the 'less popular' in style and the more tactical. He was of the school of gaming that later saw the rise of the 'gimmick' army or the 'points value' army, where one simply bought - either in the campaign or in real life - stuff that was really powerful if you were going by the stats or numbers. He tended to rely on the numbers and gimmicks instead of the basics of tactics and terrain, and it cost him I don't know how many battles as a result.

Looking back on it over the intervening years, Tom wasn't all that much fun to play against. His massive armies usually seemed to fall right apart at the seams when he ran up against somebody (like Gronan or I) who knew something of the period or setting being played. In my experience, battles with him as the opposing side would usually be tipped one way or the other on the first or second turn, when he would 'push the button' to activate whatever special unit or weapon he had.

Fred, bless him, was always a fearsome opponent no matter what the period or setting. He never, ever made the same mistake twice; he was a very fast and astute learner, very well read, and very very serious about doing the best job that he could. In my experience, you could beat Fred once in any game or setting, normally his first game in that set of rules or world-setting. After that first game, you were always sure of a very tough and close game with him on the other side of the table.

There's a name for people like that Tom in contemporary gaming. At least in my area they call them "Green-Red MtG players";). (It refers to the Green and Red colours in Magic: the Gathering, which have the biggest, expensive to play monsters...which are easily shut down by cheap to play cards in the White and Blue arsenals. Even some Black decks can do the same, albeit at greater cost. The Red deck also has some gimmicks who decide the game in the early turns, again, unless you listened to old Sun Tzu when constructing your deck, and prioritized not getting kicked to the curb over doing likewise to your enemy).

There's also a name for players like Fred. It's "worthy opponents":D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on June 30, 2016, 03:33:56 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;905920
So, we come up to a door. First thing we do, is the party has people looking back the way we came and forward to the way we were going. Somebody in the middle looks the door over, and asked Phil if the hinges are on our side. Phil tells us; if the hinges are on our side, one person listens at the door while another lifts the pins if possible. We pull the door away quietly, and hope that we can get the drop on anybody who might be in the room. The middle people in the party are the ones who go in the doorway - the people on the 'front and back' detail will keep an eye out for anything attracted by the noise, and will be the last people through the door when and if the middle (now front rank) call them in.
Good tactics, though this presumes either that your squishy magic users are banging open the door (not usually a great idea) or that you have a much larger party than I have usually seen in an underworld setting. Typically we had to rotate places to have some armored folks to open the door.

Quote
And speaking of Underworlds, would there be any interest in a 25mm / 28mm version of the Tomb Complex of Nereshanbo? It scales out to a 60" x 60" inch table, which I have. Got all the needed miniatures, too. Would this be something that people would like to see and maybe play in?
Sounds fun.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on June 30, 2016, 03:55:52 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;905920
And speaking of Underworlds, would there be any interest in a 25mm / 28mm version of the Tomb Complex of Nereshanbo? It scales out to a 60" x 60" inch table, which I have. Got all the needed miniatures, too. Would this be something that people would like to see and maybe play in?

Absolutely!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on June 30, 2016, 04:04:02 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;905920
Chirine's Tactics 101 - Case Study Three: The Door

So, we'll have a look at tactics in the microcosm: Phil and the problem of The Door.

First, some basic information. Phil used a pretty much 'standard' ten-foot-wide corridor in most of his Underworlds, which allowed for the use in EPT of parties in ranks of three in line. Normally, we'd put the best fighter - often me - in the middle of the front rank, and the next-best one in the middle of the rear rank. The basic 'tactical formation we used was armored people on the outside, un-armored people on the inside for their protection. Usually, this meant that the magic-users were protected from sudden surprises. We'd use the solid walls of the passage or whatever to control our flanks, and make sure that we had some sort of protection to our rear when (never if!) we'd get jumped by Something. So, we'd be moving along with the front ranks looking ahead of us, the middle ranks looking to the sides, and the back rank keeping an eye out to the rear.

So, we come up to a door. First thing we do, is the party has people looking back the way we came and forward to the way we were going. Somebody in the middle looks the door over, and asked Phil if the hinges are on our side. Phil tells us; if the hinges are on our side, one person listens at the door while another lifts the pins if possible. We pull the door away quietly, and hope that we can get the drop on anybody who might be in the room. The middle people in the party are the ones who go in the doorway - the people on the 'front and back' detail will keep an eye out for anything attracted by the noise, and will be the last people through the door when and if the middle (now front rank) call them in.

If the hinge pins are on the other side, then we listen and then try the door; if it is locked, then we move up the escalation ladder to sterner measures and pop the door open. Same drill follows.

Yes, it takes some coordination between players, and good communication in the moment, but we managed to do it after one or two tries.

We stayed flexible and fluid, and it kept us alive for years with the best Phil could throw at us.

And speaking of Underworlds, would there be any interest in a 25mm / 28mm version of the Tomb Complex of Nereshanbo? It scales out to a 60" x 60" inch table, which I have. Got all the needed miniatures, too. Would this be something that people would like to see and maybe play in?


Uncle, good stuff!!! What ended up being on the other side...? As far as Nereshanbo goes, I would love to play in it. But as it would not be a reality this year, if the others want to see it, I'm all for it!!! Thanks.

H:0)

PS How long until your next instalment of miniature painting 101...?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 30, 2016, 09:32:09 PM
Chirine,

Quote from: chirine ba kal;905915
From Shemek hiTankolel:

So, some things come to mind, and in no particular order.
1. where was his counter-fire?

I dunno. Every now and then a Sherman would get hit, so I knew he was out there.
OK, so he did have anti-tank capability.

2. what was his armour orbat. How many and what mark of  Panzer IV's, STUG's, Panthers, Tigers?
As I recall, a platoon or two of King Tigers, a company of Panthers, a company of infantry in half-tracks, a recon platoon of Pumas, and some Luftwaffe guys with an 88mm flak gun. We had the lovely model, and it seemed a shame not to use it.
Enough track on the board to cause you some grief. With the kill ratio of KT's and Panthers v. Shermans he should have been able to do some major damage to the US assault force. I'm not going to consider the 88, as you probably smoked it the first round when it fired at the jeep.

3. how many 88's did he have?
One towed, six mobile in the King Tigers.
As per #2 above.

4. his force was primarily what? Inf, Arm, PzGrnd, Fallsch ?
I'd guess Panzer Grenadiers, form the half-tracks.
Ok, no reason for not redeploying quickly after the initial barrage

5. did he stay fixed, or did he redeploy?
He stayed fixed in place, as I recall.
His second major mistake. The first being the use of an 88 to shoot a jeep.

6. was this a one off scenario, or was it linked to a campaign?
It was a one off, but with campaign-style victory conditions. I had to get through, and he had to stop me or kill most of my forces.
No reason why, based on what you have said about his forces, he could not have been able to achieve this.

7. if it was a campaign, why not do what Jerry always did: fall back and redeploy?
I would have done this anyway when things went rotten, but then I always play as if it's a campaign battle.
Which, I'll warrant, is why you will never be pounded so handily.

8. what distances are we talking about vis-a-vis FEBA - FLET?
No real idea; see Gronan's reply. The table was something like five by nine feet, as I recall; plenty of room.
Exactly. Tonnes of manoeuvre there should one desire it.

9. the wildcats were in defilade, but were the shermans as well?
Nope. The Shermans were all out in plain sight in open terrain. I did pop a lot of smoke, though, and just kept shooting.
Wow.:confused: There should have a lot of Tommy Cookers brewing up that day.

10. at what odds were you at?
Maybe three to one in numbers, but even odds qualitatively. It was set up as a very tough fight for the Americans.
Wow. :confused: This is exactly the type of scenario I typically don't like playing as the American side. A determined and moderately aware opponent will hand you your ass tout de suite. Having said that, when you win as the American it's a good win!

I would have loved to have seen this one play out. I have played similar scenarios in Panzer Leader. They are tough to do right for either side. Hoping someone will fall into your trap is a risky thing. You've got to be on your toes.  In the words of Old Blood and Guts:  “There is no such thing as luck, merely opportunity meeting preparedness."  George S. Patton Jr.
After reading this account I got a sudden hankering for some WW2 wargaming. Well it's a long weekend coming up... I might have to dig out Panzer Leader and Panzer Blitz., and find an opponent. :D


It was a lot of fun to play, as going into it I knew it was going to be very, very tough. I had to think very fast and on my feet, and be decisive. And it all worked out, I thought...
Worked like a charm. Judging from your account you didn't even break a sweat.



I'll bet that scenario was a good lesson for your opponent. You should call this battle "How not play an ambush, and the importance of reacting quickly to a changing situation."
As old Boney Parts said:
"The battlefield is a scene of constant chaos. The winner will be the one who controls that chaos, both his own and the enemy's." Napoleon Bonaparte


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 30, 2016, 09:33:53 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;905988

And speaking of Underworlds, would there be any interest in a 25mm / 28mm version of the Tomb Complex of Nereshanbo? It scales out to a 60" x 60" inch table, which I have. Got all the needed miniatures, too. Would this be something that people would like to see and maybe play in?


Absolutely!

Me too.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on June 30, 2016, 11:35:33 PM
I was nosing around on the Blue Room again, and I found this on the Undying Wizards written by Phil. Maybe Chirine can tell us a little more about some of the wizards mentioned, or about the College?


"There is no lengthy description of the Undying Wizards, the
College at the End of Time, and other features of the Further Planes. When
I first set out to publish "Empire of the Petal Throne," I realised that
many complexities had to be simplified -- perhaps totally dropped, perhaps
issued later as follow-up booklets, etc.

I thus put "Empire of the Petal Throne" out as "Introductory Tekumel." It
deals with the contemporary situation, particularly in Tsolyanu.
"Intermediate Tekumel" might include localised planetary developments, such
as the Undying Wizards, the College, and some of the "nearer" Planes
Beyond. "Advanced Tekumel" then could go on to treat the Further Planes,
the struggles between the Gods (and certain of the Pariah Deities), the
denizens of the Pylons, the strategems and grand planning of forces on
several sides, etc. etc. There could even be a "Post-Graduate Tekumel," but
this is best left undescribed.

Some of the Wizards of "Intermediate Tekumel" are mentioned in the various
sourcebooks: elderly, bald-pated Thomar, Subadim the Fisherman of Skeins,
Hagarr of Paranta, etc. Others are not well known outside of my personal
games: e.g. the devious Thuken; beautiful, but violent and impetuous
Sarvodaya Di'ela; Turshanmu the Klutz; Ardza the Inimical Beast of Hosts,
etc. Each of these has his or her (or its) peculiarities and personality;
each is the defender of a particular point of view, sometimes
straightforward (e.g. Thomar = Stability) and sometimes contradictory and
distorted (e.g. Sarvodaya = Change? the Goddess of the Pale Bone? Others of
the Pariah Deities? Her own selfish desires?). Each has a role and duties
on Tekumel. These "wizards" are not just free scholars, who can doze in
libraries and teach and enjoy their perogatives, as some players have
wished. They are busy people, with projects, schedules, and goals. They are
*not* there just to offer magical devices and information to the players'
characters. They may help on occasion, but at other times they refuse aid
because they can see problems further down the Road of Time. They travel up
and down time and skip from one Plane to another, as a monkey swings
through the trees of the forest.

The College is, of course, a much later form of Avanthar, built in the same
locale with much the same setting, but at the End of Time, far in the
future when the sun is always about to set, and the skies are a soft red
and dull gold. The place is called a "College," but there are no classes,
curricula, or degrees. It is a "college" in the older, mediaeval sense: a
haven for scholars. Its libraries are vast, containing the essentials of
all human history. The librarians have no idea where specific books are,
however, because, like mediaeval libraries, there is no catalogue system.

The College teems with people and creatures from many worlds, including
Tekumel itself. These students study, work under this or that tutor, and
are given projects of their own. Some of these projects are designed for
Tekumel, while others are meant to operate on the worlds of the Planes
Beyond. The system is quite complicated, involving many points of view and
conflicting objectives.

Most player characters (in my experience) are not suitable for enrollment
in the College because they are still too human, too greedy and
self-centred, and too limited in perspective to be productive in such an
environment. A yen for "magic items" and "secrets" does not make a
candidate a good student.

The Wizards and the College are widely known in my campaigns. My players
are now accomplished "Intermediate Tekumel" players. Some have moved on to
the lower stages of "Advanced Tekumel." Many have met some of the Wizards
and taken part in adventures on other Planes. Some have even allowed old
Turshanmu to cast spells affecting them -- ask Eyloa about fried eggs, or
others about Turshanmu's "Pink Goo." Ask Arumel about the whimsical
Sarvodaya Di'ela, or ask him what happened to his own daughter when he left
her alone at the College for too long. Ask Sanjesh about his lovely bride,
Ais. There are too many adventures and details here ever to record n full!

The Planes Beyond are tremendously confusing: an infinity of closely
similar Planes (e.g. on this one you sneeze, on that one you do not), with
interlinking nexus points that usually take a traveller *away* from his
goal (like putting a blind child into New York City without a map and
telling him to find his way home) and are fraught with danger. Thomar
describes the Planes as a great tree, with one central trunk (the main
time-line) and an infinity of limbs, branches, leaves, etc. Layers of the
Many Planes are like the rings in the trunk of a tree. On one "limb"
Mirusiya is Emperor; on another Hirkane is not dead; on a third, Ma'in
Kruthai rules and has turned the palace into a resort for Dlamelish
worshippers; on still another, the Hokun dominate a lonely planet of Ssu to
which humankind never came. If one wants to know more (but not all), one
must seek Waba, the author of the Periplus of the Planes. He's a pretty
good guide, though not always infallible.

I hope that this much will serve, at least temporarily. I don't usually go
into these aspects of Tekumel. There are enough complexities as it is; even
in the familiar Five Empires, even in Jakalla or Tumissa or Bey Su; no need
to wander far afield in order to find things to do, any more than one needs
to know the street plan of Tenochtitlan in order to analyse American
political campaigns. I hope I live long enough to get at least *some* of
this down in writing. My players know much about the "Intermediate" level,
however, and can act as guides. A few are experienced in certain nearer
regions of the Planes Beyond, such as Sanjesh, whose friend, Horodai, is a
demon -- but a friendly one.

Enjoy. Watch out for little old men who want to "borrow" chalk or a candle
in order to make a spell.

Phil"


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 01, 2016, 02:46:40 AM
From AsenRG:
Was there also a scandal because there shouldn't be dud shells;)?
Also, these people would probably be impaled in Tekumel...:)

Yes, but that was the British scandal. Yes, if I caught them...

Man, that's the real British spirit! Kill a man if you have to, don't complain if you're the one who gets the lead, don't make it a vendetta. It's something that can be admired.
True! :) I went back and looked it up, it was the 14th Foot at Blenheim.

Fun fact: the similarly lightly armoured other PC, who was scouting with him, did kill the same guy to avenge him. But he didn't do it by charging with him and getting himself killed. He used javelins from ambush, and then a spear up-close.
Which is thinking before doing... :)

Well, the geniuses are allowed a few quirks...that is, a few quirks more than the rest of us.
I would say so. :)

Sweeney Todd. Even I've heard of it.
even the UMNPD has heard of them; I work with them at my current about to be old job...

Yeah, I suspect they would.
I sometimes joke that half the successful PCs would have gotten along with a certain James Moriarty, Professor. Of course, the other half would kill them...

This may have to be set in stone and put up as a monument, somewhere. Very true, I think. Like the poor people at a long-ago Gen Con who had trouble wrapping their heads around the notion that Chirine really is an Evil High Priest, and even has his own Evil Army to back him up.

I shall be waiting.
BTW, are you familiar with Kobold's Book of Combat?

No, I'm not, sorry.

True, that.
So you should do it:D!

I'll put it on The List. :)

Man, I hate box barrages:). Don't ask me why, I just don't like them.
Agreed. They are no fun to be under, even under cover, and I am not find of them as a game tactic as they are pretty mechanistic - I find that kinda dull, an while it does win fights it could have been a better game with more moving about and such.

It's amazing how often basic tactics get to people unfamiliar with them.
Fred showed the true spirit, though.

Fred was a sportsman, and enjoyed the challenge of game play. Like all of those guys from that time, having a fun game was a lot more important then who won or who lost.

There's a name for people like that Tom in contemporary gaming. At least in my area they call them "Green-Red MtG players";). (It refers to the Green and Red colours in Magic: the Gathering, which have the biggest, expensive to play monsters...which are easily shut down by cheap to play cards in the White and Blue arsenals. Even some Black decks can do the same, albeit at greater cost. The Red deck also has some gimmicks who decide the game in the early turns, again, unless you listened to old Sun Tzu when constructing your deck, and prioritized not getting kicked to the curb over doing likewise to your enemy).
Agreed; we use to call them 'power gamers', and now I think they might be 'min-maxers'.

There's also a name for players like Fred. It's "worthy opponents":D!
Very, very much so; I'd play Fred any day, and I miss the guy.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 01, 2016, 02:53:49 AM
Quote from: Bren;905982
Good tactics, though this presumes either that your squishy magic users are banging open the door (not usually a great idea) or that you have a much larger party than I have usually seen in an underworld setting. Typically we had to rotate places to have some armored folks to open the door.

Sounds fun.

Very astute observations. We normally had eight to ten people in our group out at Phil's, with a mix of pure fighters, pure magic users, and 'priests' - the mixed  use class. Normally, the more experienced players would take the front and back, and the less experienced would be in the middle. This gave them a lot more to do, which was fine, and they usually had the skills to do a lot of this stuff. Which is why I get boggled at the idea of 'niche protection'; we just naturally assumed that the person with the most applicable skills would be doing the needed stuff; 'leadership of the party', such s it was, would move around between people depending on the situation.

I still run larger groups, and enjoy them more. Given the very fast pace of my games, it gives the players more time to think, and the dynamics are a lot of fun. Get a good, cooperative group (like the amazing mob - eighteen people -  I had at Gary Con, last year) and it becomes a really fun time.

My thought for doing 'Tomb Complex' is that I usually run the Jakalla Underworld, and it does get a bit old for me - I have memorized most of the map key by now, I fear. I'd like to have something quick, fast, and fun for people to play that is also visually spectacular, and I thought that this project might fit the bill...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 01, 2016, 02:54:41 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;905988
Absolutely!

To the Batcave!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 01, 2016, 02:57:02 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;905993
Uncle, good stuff!!! What ended up being on the other side...? As far as Nereshanbo goes, I would love to play in it. But as it would not be a reality this year, if the others want to see it, I'm all for it!!! Thanks.

H:0)

PS How long until your next instalment of miniature painting 101...?

Which one of a couple hundred doors? :)

The idea is to have the thing ready for play, whenever. It'll be in modules, so I can get the thing in and out of the game room...

Saturday, at this rate. I had to go to the IPMS Sweden site to get the paint conversion charts - Humbrol Authentic, Polly S, and Floquil are not made any more, and it's been decades since Phil's palette of colors was available...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 01, 2016, 02:59:46 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;906014
Chirine,



I'll bet that scenario was a good lesson for your opponent. You should call this battle "How not play an ambush, and the importance of reacting quickly to a changing situation."
As old Boney Parts said:
"The battlefield is a scene of constant chaos. The winner will be the one who controls that chaos, both his own and the enemy's." Napoleon Bonaparte


Shemek

No, it wasn't, which is why playing Tom got to be such a chore. He didn't learn a thing, and started looking for a better 'gimmick' army.

Oddly enough, one of my Braunstein players describes me as 'The Lord of Chaos'...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 01, 2016, 03:01:48 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;906015
Me too.

Shemek.

Cool! I got this notion after looking over my stocks of raw materials, and seeing that I have a lot of sheet stock and lumber just sitting around. And just the right stuff for the water feature, too! And I like boats, so... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 01, 2016, 03:07:15 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;906044
I was nosing around on the Blue Room again, and I found this on the Undying Wizards written by Phil. Maybe Chirine can tell us a little more about some of the wizards mentioned, or about the College?

Shemek

Well, what little I can add may not help much. We were, as a group, very 'grounded' in Tekumel proper, and not very interested in hopping around the planes or hob-nobbing with wizards and demons. We did have most of that motley crew of annoying sorcerers drop in and out on quite a few occasions, but it was always because they needed a favor from us or 'a little job' done. In general, we were much more interested in exploring Tekumel then the other groups where, and so they tended to go off on these mighty universe-spanning epic quests while we minded the store. They're all in the book, but if you have something specific I'll try to answer. What you found is about all Phil did, although they do appear in his novels.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 01, 2016, 04:32:50 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;906064
From AsenRG:
Was there also a scandal because there shouldn't be dud shells;)?
Also, these people would probably be impaled in Tekumel...:)

Yes, but that was the British scandal. Yes, if I caught them...

I know it wasn't in a nation that practiced impalement at the time. But shipping shells that don't explode would surely catch Chirine's ire... In fact, I suspect he would react badly no matter which side he was on.

Quote
True! :) I went back and looked it up, it was the 14th Foot at Blenheim.

Viva the spirit!

Quote
Which is thinking before doing... :)

Indeed.
The same guy told him "the game is just fine, you're just stupid", AFAIK.

Quote
Yeah, I suspect they would.
I sometimes joke that half the successful PCs would have gotten along with a certain James Moriarty, Professor. Of course, the other half would kill them...

This may have to be set in stone and put up as a monument, somewhere. Very true, I think. Like the poor people at a long-ago Gen Con who had trouble wrapping their heads around the notion that Chirine really is an Evil High Priest, and even has his own Evil Army to back him up.

Well, it was distressing for them, I guess...
I remember the first time someone offered me to play Vampire: the Masquerade. My reaction was "I killed a lot of PCs last month".

Quote
I shall be waiting.
BTW, are you familiar with Kobold's Book of Combat?

No, I'm not, sorry.

No need to be sorry, I doubt you'd learn anything new. I just think it's a good text for new players.

Quote
Man, I hate box barrages:). Don't ask me why, I just don't like them.
Agreed. They are no fun to be under, even under cover, and I am not find of them as a game tactic as they are pretty mechanistic - I find that kinda dull, an while it does win fights it could have been a better game with more moving about and such.

Oh, I'm fine with mechanistic tactics. If they let me set it up, they get what they deserve.
The reasons I don't like this one in particular are frankly unclear even to myself.

Quote
Fred was a sportsman, and enjoyed the challenge of game play. Like all of those guys from that time, having a fun game was a lot more important then who won or who lost.

Yeah, that's the spirit...

Quote
Agreed; we use to call them 'power gamers', and now I think they might be 'min-maxers'.

Well, those terms are somewhat contradictory. The way I use them, "power gamers" probably applies, but you'd have to add "stupid" in front of "min-maxer"...:D
I think that the Timmy, Johnny and Spike (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/timmy-johnny-and-spike-2013-12-03) classification* fits better in this case. In this case, we're definitely talking about a Timmy:).
Min-maxers tend to be Spike;).

*Likes to win with big cards, likes to use non-standard comboes even if they don't win often, likes to win, period.



Also, hereby we, the audience, request that you tell us of Eyloa's fried eggs, the whimsical Sarvodaya Di'ela, what happened to Arumel's daughter when he left her alone at the College for too long, and why Ais is interesting, other than being someone's bride:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on July 01, 2016, 10:09:06 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;906067
Which one of a couple hundred doors? :)

The idea is to have the thing ready for play, whenever. It'll be in modules, so I can get the thing in and out of the game room...

Saturday, at this rate. I had to go to the IPMS Sweden site to get the paint conversion charts - Humbrol Authentic, Polly S, and Floquil are not made any more, and it's been decades since Phil's palette of colors was available...


Uncle, Haha!!! I have all the time in the world!!! So you can start with your first door, and continue on from there...I'm all ears. Or If you like, hold off on this and let's get that leather bound collector's edition of TSTPT done!!! That would be a dream come true. Thanks. Be well.

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on July 01, 2016, 10:24:07 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;906044
I was nosing around on the Blue Room again, and I found this on the Undying Wizards written by Phil. Maybe Chirine can tell us a little more about some of the wizards mentioned, or about the College?


"There is no lengthy description of the Undying Wizards, the
College at the End of Time, and other features of the Further Planes. When
I first set out to publish "Empire of the Petal Throne," I realised that
many complexities had to be simplified -- perhaps totally dropped, perhaps
issued later as follow-up booklets, etc.

I thus put "Empire of the Petal Throne" out as "Introductory Tekumel." It
deals with the contemporary situation, particularly in Tsolyanu.
"Intermediate Tekumel" might include localised planetary developments, such
as the Undying Wizards, the College, and some of the "nearer" Planes
Beyond. "Advanced Tekumel" then could go on to treat the Further Planes,
the struggles between the Gods (and certain of the Pariah Deities), the
denizens of the Pylons, the strategems and grand planning of forces on
several sides, etc. etc. There could even be a "Post-Graduate Tekumel," but
this is best left undescribed.

Some of the Wizards of "Intermediate Tekumel" are mentioned in the various
sourcebooks: elderly, bald-pated Thomar, Subadim the Fisherman of Skeins,
Hagarr of Paranta, etc. Others are not well known outside of my personal
games: e.g. the devious Thuken; beautiful, but violent and impetuous
Sarvodaya Di'ela; Turshanmu the Klutz; Ardza the Inimical Beast of Hosts,
etc. Each of these has his or her (or its) peculiarities and personality;
each is the defender of a particular point of view, sometimes
straightforward (e.g. Thomar = Stability) and sometimes contradictory and
distorted (e.g. Sarvodaya = Change? the Goddess of the Pale Bone? Others of
the Pariah Deities? Her own selfish desires?). Each has a role and duties
on Tekumel. These "wizards" are not just free scholars, who can doze in
libraries and teach and enjoy their perogatives, as some players have
wished. They are busy people, with projects, schedules, and goals. They are
*not* there just to offer magical devices and information to the players'
characters. They may help on occasion, but at other times they refuse aid
because they can see problems further down the Road of Time. They travel up
and down time and skip from one Plane to another, as a monkey swings
through the trees of the forest.

The College is, of course, a much later form of Avanthar, built in the same
locale with much the same setting, but at the End of Time, far in the
future when the sun is always about to set, and the skies are a soft red
and dull gold. The place is called a "College," but there are no classes,
curricula, or degrees. It is a "college" in the older, mediaeval sense: a
haven for scholars. Its libraries are vast, containing the essentials of
all human history. The librarians have no idea where specific books are,
however, because, like mediaeval libraries, there is no catalogue system.

The College teems with people and creatures from many worlds, including
Tekumel itself. These students study, work under this or that tutor, and
are given projects of their own. Some of these projects are designed for
Tekumel, while others are meant to operate on the worlds of the Planes
Beyond. The system is quite complicated, involving many points of view and
conflicting objectives.

Most player characters (in my experience) are not suitable for enrollment
in the College because they are still too human, too greedy and
self-centred, and too limited in perspective to be productive in such an
environment. A yen for "magic items" and "secrets" does not make a
candidate a good student.

The Wizards and the College are widely known in my campaigns. My players
are now accomplished "Intermediate Tekumel" players. Some have moved on to
the lower stages of "Advanced Tekumel." Many have met some of the Wizards
and taken part in adventures on other Planes. Some have even allowed old
Turshanmu to cast spells affecting them -- ask Eyloa about fried eggs, or
others about Turshanmu's "Pink Goo." Ask Arumel about the whimsical
Sarvodaya Di'ela, or ask him what happened to his own daughter when he left
her alone at the College for too long. Ask Sanjesh about his lovely bride,
Ais. There are too many adventures and details here ever to record n full!

The Planes Beyond are tremendously confusing: an infinity of closely
similar Planes (e.g. on this one you sneeze, on that one you do not), with
interlinking nexus points that usually take a traveller *away* from his
goal (like putting a blind child into New York City without a map and
telling him to find his way home) and are fraught with danger. Thomar
describes the Planes as a great tree, with one central trunk (the main
time-line) and an infinity of limbs, branches, leaves, etc. Layers of the
Many Planes are like the rings in the trunk of a tree. On one "limb"
Mirusiya is Emperor; on another Hirkane is not dead; on a third, Ma'in
Kruthai rules and has turned the palace into a resort for Dlamelish
worshippers; on still another, the Hokun dominate a lonely planet of Ssu to
which humankind never came. If one wants to know more (but not all), one
must seek Waba, the author of the Periplus of the Planes. He's a pretty
good guide, though not always infallible.

I hope that this much will serve, at least temporarily. I don't usually go
into these aspects of Tekumel. There are enough complexities as it is; even
in the familiar Five Empires, even in Jakalla or Tumissa or Bey Su; no need
to wander far afield in order to find things to do, any more than one needs
to know the street plan of Tenochtitlan in order to analyse American
political campaigns. I hope I live long enough to get at least *some* of
this down in writing. My players know much about the "Intermediate" level,
however, and can act as guides. A few are experienced in certain nearer
regions of the Planes Beyond, such as Sanjesh, whose friend, Horodai, is a
demon -- but a friendly one.

Enjoy. Watch out for little old men who want to "borrow" chalk or a candle
in order to make a spell.

Phil"


Shemek


Lord Shemek, most excellent find. Now my mind is racing like a thousand horses[horse:a riding beast I have encountered in my travels]across a plain!!! Stop those vengeful Hokun for they are not unlike the oliphant, whose memory may span ages...Thanks for sharing!!! Be well my friend.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on July 01, 2016, 10:55:27 AM
Uncle,

Would you happen to know anything about "Intermediate Tekumel" Hokun? Or can you shed any further light on the Professor's "Intermediate Tekumel"? I know we have been here before, but Lord Shemek has rekindled some of my thoughts...Any tidbits to add?

Also if you may, can you give us a overview of Avanthar? Such as its scope above, below, and beyond? And some of its lesser known oddities(we know about the Jade arch, Petal Throne, lightning bringers, etc.). Anything that is lesser known? Thank you in advance.

H:0)

PS I ask because I'm wondering now, how far off is my branch of Bethorm from the main trunk...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 01, 2016, 11:45:15 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;906065
Very astute observations. We normally had eight to ten people in our group out at Phil's, with a mix of pure fighters, pure magic users, and 'priests' - the mixed  use class. Normally, the more experienced players would take the front and back, and the less experienced would be in the middle. This gave them a lot more to do, which was fine, and they usually had the skills to do a lot of this stuff. Which is why I get boggled at the idea of 'niche protection'; we just naturally assumed that the person with the most applicable skills would be doing the needed stuff; 'leadership of the party', such s it was, would move around between people depending on the situation.


There is this notion, I have no idea where it started, that every player must have something "fun" to do every round.  The notion that "Olav and I are going to watch forward at the head of the group while Chirine and Aelfric watch behind us in the rear, because we're the four most heavily armored types" has been judged "not fun" by a subset of modern gamers.  What they'd do with a regiment of foot in square while the artillery pounded the enemy cavalry, I have no idea.

Me, I always thought "accomplish your objective" was fun.  But what do I know.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;906065
I still run larger groups, and enjoy them more. Given the very fast pace of my games, it gives the players more time to think, and the dynamics are a lot of fun. Get a good, cooperative group (like the amazing mob - eighteen people -  I had at Gary Con, last year) and it becomes a really fun time.

My thought for doing 'Tomb Complex' is that I usually run the Jakalla Underworld, and it does get a bit old for me - I have memorized most of the map key by now, I fear. I'd like to have something quick, fast, and fun for people to play that is also visually spectacular, and I thought that this project might fit the bill...


Does the "Tomb Complex" have wandering monsters?  As referee I have found that the more things that are variable, the more surprises ** I ** can have, which helps keep it fresh and fun.  Like when the wandering bugbears decide to shake down the players for a "toll" rather than just attacking.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 01, 2016, 11:51:10 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;905919
Tom had a habit of buying and reading stuff that was more in the genre of campaign histories; he was very well-versed in the big picture and grand strategies, but he tended to neglect the 'less popular' in style and the more tactical.

Actually, you twigged onto something there.  Tom was a much, much better strategist than a tactician.  At the University there were these huge multi-year strategic campaigns of all sorts and Tom did quite well, as well as the giant high-level hex and chit games like "Drang nach Osten" and some Napoleonic era game that goes from something like 1790 to 1830.

But yeah, tactics seemed to elude his genius.  Still, no disgrace in being a better strategist and logician than tactician.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 02, 2016, 10:38:37 AM
In Chinese and Indian there is a specific word for "ten thousand" like English has "teen".
Are things like this true for Tekumel and do they add spice to the game or just confusion in your opinion?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 03, 2016, 05:14:33 PM
How interesting it is depends on relevance.

As a military officer I enjoyed learning that "Gurek" is the Yan Koryani word for "Legion."  The word for "ten thousandth" would not be as interesting as I would probably use it infrequently.

And we laughed like thirteen year olds at the fact that Kaing is the word for "standard" (as in a legion's standard) and "qeng" is the word for "penis," and with a little slurring you can pronounce them very similarly.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 03, 2016, 08:50:43 PM
Here's another inspirational pic for Tekumel I found on line. Ghatoni, and Serudla with a Yan Koryani officer. Anyone you recognize Chirine?  Enjoy.

Shemek

[ATTACH=CONFIG]231[/ATTACH]
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 03, 2016, 09:11:22 PM
From AsenRG:
I know it wasn't in a nation that practiced impalement at the time. But shipping shells that don't explode would surely catch Chirine's ire... In fact, I suspect he would react badly no matter which side he was on.
Yeah. like the time somebody tried to sell me a legion's worth of cheap and mostly defective swords.

Well, it was distressing for them, I guess...
I remember the first time someone offered me to play Vampire: the Masquerade. My reaction was "I killed a lot of PCs last month".

:)

No need to be sorry, I doubt you'd learn anything new. I just think it's a good text for new players.
Had a look at the Kobold Press website. Interesting look into 'gamer culture', but as you say, a very good text for new people.

Oh, I'm fine with mechanistic tactics. If they let me set it up, they get what they deserve.
The reasons I don't like this one in particular are frankly unclear even to myself.

I can agree with that; while very effective, it's not very satisfying somehow. Yeah, it won the fight for me, but it made for what I would have to say was one of the least exciting games I'd ever played - no fault of Gronan's, I got the feeling at the time that he was just as disappointed as I was over the opposing side's performance. I mean, he coulda just phoned it in, to use a theatrical phrase.

Well, those terms are somewhat contradictory. The way I use them, "power gamers" probably applies, but you'd have to add "stupid" in front of "min-maxer"...:D
I think that the Timmy, Johnny and Spike (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/timmy-johnny-and-spike-2013-12-03) classification* fits better in this case. In this case, we're definitely talking about a Timmy:).
Min-maxers tend to be Spike;).
*Likes to win with big cards, likes to use non-standard comboes even if they don't win often, likes to win, period.

I read the article; and I think you're right. Not people I'd like to game with, though.

Also, hereby we, the audience, request that you tell us of Eyloa's fried eggs, the whimsical Sarvodaya Di'ela, what happened to Arumel's daughter when he left her alone at the College for too long, and why Ais is interesting, other than being someone's bride:D!
No idea; this was the 1990s crowd, and they didn't publish much on their adventures. I'd suggest contacting them directly; they're the Tekumel Foundation, and I think you can reach them through their website. Sorry; just no specific data on this in my archives.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 03, 2016, 09:13:51 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;906137
Uncle, Haha!!! I have all the time in the world!!! So you can start with your first door, and continue on from there...I'm all ears. Or If you like, hold off on this and let's get that leather bound collector's edition of TSTPT done!!! That would be a dream come true. Thanks. Be well.

H;0)


Oh, right. Let me think about this; there were so many doors/gates/portals that got kicked in over the years. One of the hard parts about writing TSTPT is making the more-or-less random dungeon crawls of the first year or so into something that makes sense. I'll see what I can do...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 03, 2016, 10:10:14 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;906139
Uncle,

Would you happen to know anything about "Intermediate Tekumel" Hokun? Or can you shed any further light on the Professor's "Intermediate Tekumel"? I know we have been here before, but Lord Shemek has rekindled some of my thoughts...Any tidbits to add?

Also if you may, can you give us a overview of Avanthar? Such as its scope above, below, and beyond? And some of its lesser known oddities(we know about the Jade arch, Petal Throne, lightning bringers, etc.). Anything that is lesser known? Thank you in advance.

H:0)

PS I ask because I'm wondering now, how far off is my branch of Bethorm from the main trunk...

Well, I am a little unsure about what you're asking for. There are, as Phil points out, varying degrees - and I use that word deliberately, as Phil was an academic - of knowledge and experience with his world-setting. I've been described (by the Tekumel Foundation, of all people!) as, quote, "The Greatest Living Authority On Tekumel", unquote, and while I do know a lot about the world-setting I don't even pretend to know all of the details of the thing; which is why I devote so much time, energy, and brute-force storage space for the archives. In Phil's 'ranking system', I think I'd be classed as 'Advanced Intermediate' with only Phil himself as the only one in the top rank; other people think I'm in that same top rank, but in my opinion that's because I have access to all of his files as well as my own.

One thing to remember always about Tekumel is that Phil very deliberately never revealed everything; I got one really important bit of information from him in a casual conversation about six months before he passed away, and I'm sure that he took some of the 'deeper secrets' with him - he was always right up front about wanting people to explore his world for themselves and finding their own answers to things.

So, the Hokun. Yes, we know that they originally paid for Tekumel's terra-forming, but are not that fond of humans; my best guess, based on everything I know and have in the files,  is that they were neutral in the conflict that saw Tekumel (and the other 772 worlds) dropped into bethorms, and the surviving Hokun on Tekumel have been cheesed off ever since. Would they like to see the Five Empires ruined so that they can rule this continent as well as theirs? I'd think so, from what we saw and what we know. Besides that, we have Phil's notes in the Blue Room and the Sourcebook, and some bits in his novels - the rest, we're supposed to be able to work out from all that. (I can tell you how to paint them in miniature, though.)

Avanthar. Makes Cheyenne Mountain look like a small village; Avanthar is a good-sized city built inside the mountain, with a palace complex (the Golden Tower) situated on the flattened peak amongst the gardens there. There are no 'ground-level' gates; normally, you get in via the watergate on the western flank at river level, and the entrance channel is usually blocked off from top to bottom with a massive and enormous portcullis. There is a large, military-accessable tubeway station in the very lowest levels, built there by the Ancients, and which may be even lower then the Catacombs of Silent Waiting. (It was through this station that the forces attacked Avanthar during the late civil war.)

The mountain is honeycombed with tunnels, of all sizes, and it's really much more like a city or town. There are temples, libraries, offices, armories, halls, barracks, and residences all along the outer layers of the mountain; more secret and secure portion are located deeper inside the rock. There are, to the best of my experience, no elevators; the climb up from the watergate can take most of a day to do, so visitors tend to stop off at places (like canversarai) along the way to pause and rest; the vertical nature of the place makes moving the security troops around slow and difficult.

From the outside, the mountain is sheer as it rises from the river, and the upper sections are dotted with embrasures, balconies, windows, and openings so that it looks like a huge apartment building or hotel. Topping everything is the Golden Tower, which you can see a very long distance away when the sunlight hits it.

There is no 'map' of the place; nobody is really quite sure what's located where, and you wind up using 'local guides' to navigate inside, and you get handed off from guide to guide as you go from section to section.

What else do you want to know? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 03, 2016, 10:12:49 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;906143
There is this notion, I have no idea where it started, that every player must have something "fun" to do every round.  The notion that "Olav and I are going to watch forward at the head of the group while Chirine and Aelfric watch behind us in the rear, because we're the four most heavily armored types" has been judged "not fun" by a subset of modern gamers.  What they'd do with a regiment of foot in square while the artillery pounded the enemy cavalry, I have no idea.

Me, I always thought "accomplish your objective" was fun.  But what do I know.

Does the "Tomb Complex" have wandering monsters?  As referee I have found that the more things that are variable, the more surprises ** I ** can have, which helps keep it fresh and fun.  Like when the wandering bugbears decide to shake down the players for a "toll" rather than just attacking.

Consult some complex table to roll on what the infantry can do to pass the time, I'd suppose. More rules and tables, the better?

Yes. They are pretty nasty, and do keep the part in their toes as when they get too wrapped up in the current situation they'll get hit in the rear. It's usually pretty funny to run, if you're the GM.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 03, 2016, 10:18:18 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;906309
In Chinese and Indian there is a specific word for "ten thousand" like English has "teen".
Are things like this true for Tekumel and do they add spice to the game or just confusion in your opinion?
=

Yes, they do; it's in the language books.

Phil very rarely threw any of this kind of thing into his games, unless it was important to the plot line or the flow of the adventure. I follow his lead, and only use Tsolyani words when they are needed by the flow of the game. I think they add to the setting once the players have some experience under belts, but I think that they do get in the way of new players. Insisting that new players go through some sort of hour-long 'orientation session' or 'language camp' is a great way to turn off new players; I don't do it for any game or campaign that I run. Players get a very quick fifteen-minute briefing on 'mission' and 'objective', and we're off; if they want to learn anything more 'in-depth' then that, I'll do it outside the game session.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on July 04, 2016, 11:10:39 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;906740
Well, I am a little unsure about what you're asking for. There are, as Phil points out, varying degrees - and I use that word deliberately, as Phil was an academic - of knowledge and experience with his world-setting. I've been described (by the Tekumel Foundation, of all people!) as, quote, "The Greatest Living Authority On Tekumel", unquote, and while I do know a lot about the world-setting I don't even pretend to know all of the details of the thing; which is why I devote so much time, energy, and brute-force storage space for the archives. In Phil's 'ranking system', I think I'd be classed as 'Advanced Intermediate' with only Phil himself as the only one in the top rank; other people think I'm in that same top rank, but in my opinion that's because I have access to all of his files as well as my own.

One thing to remember always about Tekumel is that Phil very deliberately never revealed everything; I got one really important bit of information from him in a casual conversation about six months before he passed away, and I'm sure that he took some of the 'deeper secrets' with him - he was always right up front about wanting people to explore his world for themselves and finding their own answers to things.

So, the Hokun. Yes, we know that they originally paid for Tekumel's terra-forming, but are not that fond of humans; my best guess, based on everything I know and have in the files,  is that they were neutral in the conflict that saw Tekumel (and the other 772 worlds) dropped into bethorms, and the surviving Hokun on Tekumel have been cheesed off ever since. Would they like to see the Five Empires ruined so that they can rule this continent as well as theirs? I'd think so, from what we saw and what we know. Besides that, we have Phil's notes in the Blue Room and the Sourcebook, and some bits in his novels - the rest, we're supposed to be able to work out from all that. (I can tell you how to paint them in miniature, though.)

Avanthar. Makes Cheyenne Mountain look like a small village; Avanthar is a good-sized city built inside the mountain, with a palace complex (the Golden Tower) situated on the flattened peak amongst the gardens there. There are no 'ground-level' gates; normally, you get in via the watergate on the western flank at river level, and the entrance channel is usually blocked off from top to bottom with a massive and enormous portcullis. There is a large, military-accessable tubeway station in the very lowest levels, built there by the Ancients, and which may be even lower then the Catacombs of Silent Waiting. (It was through this station that the forces attacked Avanthar during the late civil war.)

The mountain is honeycombed with tunnels, of all sizes, and it's really much more like a city or town. There are temples, libraries, offices, armories, halls, barracks, and residences all along the outer layers of the mountain; more secret and secure portion are located deeper inside the rock. There are, to the best of my experience, no elevators; the climb up from the watergate can take most of a day to do, so visitors tend to stop off at places (like canversarai) along the way to pause and rest; the vertical nature of the place makes moving the security troops around slow and difficult.

From the outside, the mountain is sheer as it rises from the river, and the upper sections are dotted with embrasures, balconies, windows, and openings so that it looks like a huge apartment building or hotel. Topping everything is the Golden Tower, which you can see a very long distance away when the sunlight hits it.

There is no 'map' of the place; nobody is really quite sure what's located where, and you wind up using 'local guides' to navigate inside, and you get handed off from guide to guide as you go from section to section.

What else do you want to know? :)


Thank you Uncle!!! You have opened up a golden can of worms for me...!!! What do I want to know? Everything!!! Haha, but I will do some research first. However, can you describe the "Watergate" a bit more in detail? Thanks. One other quick question, the outer layers where one would find canversarai, outside or inside the mountain? Are they run by certain clans?

Gosh, I can't resist, Lord could you describe your trip up the mountain for us? Thank you!!!

H:0)

PS Happy 4th of July to you and all the Patriots here on the board!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 04, 2016, 12:59:49 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;906652

And we laughed like thirteen year olds at the fact that Kaing is the word for "standard" (as in a legion's standard) and "qeng" is the word for "penis," and with a little slurring you can pronounce them very similarly.

(Whispers at the staff officer:
"Was it "Kaings up" or "qengs up"? I tend to mistake them, and shouting the wrong one at the troops as we leave the city would be...embarrassing. Especially if they try to comply!")

Quote from: chirine ba kal;906727
From AsenRG:
Yeah. like the time somebody tried to sell me a legion's worth of cheap and mostly defective swords.

I guess that didn't end well for him...;)

Quote
Had a look at the Kobold Press website. Interesting look into 'gamer culture', but as you say, a very good text for new people.

That's what it's meant to be. Your stories just make me think we should recommend it more.
(I bought it because a certain Rory Miller (http://www.chirontraining.com/Site/Home.html) has penned one of the articles in it. I guess I'm something of a fan).

Quote
I can agree with that; while very effective, it's not very satisfying somehow. Yeah, it won the fight for me, but it made for what I would have to say was one of the least exciting games I'd ever played - no fault of Gronan's, I got the feeling at the time that he was just as disappointed as I was over the opposing side's performance. I mean, he coulda just phoned it in, to use a theatrical phrase.

Best kind of win: guaranteed.
Just not very entertaining to watch.

Quote
I read the article; and I think you're right. Not people I'd like to game with, though.

Well, these are gamer types, not people - depending on how they approach mechanics. They just gave them names for ease of reference.
Of course, we don't know how any of these people would approach the roleplaying aspect. There's no such thing in M:tG, as it's a card game, after all. All we know is that Spike would pull a boxed barrage whenever he could...:)

Quote
No idea; this was the 1990s crowd, and they didn't publish much on their adventures. I'd suggest contacting them directly; they're the Tekumel Foundation, and I think you can reach them through their website. Sorry; just no specific data on this in my archives.

Ah well - I might do that when I get more time.
It's not urgent, these things just sounded funny.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;906740
There is no 'map' of the place; nobody is really quite sure what's located where, and you wind up using 'local guides' to navigate inside, and you get handed off from guide to guide as you go from section to section.

Hats off to Phil's skill at world-building stuff GMs can use:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 04, 2016, 04:55:33 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;906795
Thank you Uncle!!! You have opened up a golden can of worms for me...!!! What do I want to know? Everything!!! Haha, but I will do some research first. However, can you describe the "Watergate" a bit more in detail? Thanks. One other quick question, the outer layers where one would find canversarai, outside or inside the mountain? Are they run by certain clans?

Gosh, I can't resist, Lord could you describe your trip up the mountain for us? Thank you!!!

You're very welcome! One problem with me is that with more general questions I tend to refer people to the various publications - which, I keep forgetting, are largely so far out of print they might as well be on the far side of the moon. I dunno; I'll think of something, I guess...

The watergate is on the west face of the sheer cliff at the base of the mountain, and you take one of the navy galleys to get there. They have a number of dispatch boats that run a daily service from Bey Su to Avanthar, and passengers with business get transported by these. There are merchant ships that deliver supplies to the mountain, but these are very off-limits to passengers and get searched really carefully by the OAL guards - who don't bother with all that arresting stuff, and simply enslave or execute any unauthorized persons that they find. They also control the great portcullis that blocks the passage, as well as the inner defenses that protect the access to the mountain proper. The passage leads to a small lake / pond / harbor inside the base of the mountain, and there are a number of docks where the ships load and unload; it's a little cramped, so there are rowed 'tugboats' to move the ships around - the ships on this service also unship their masts, which I forgot to mention. They get turned around and back out as quickly as is possible, so as not to clog up the limited room in the harbor chamber. There's three or four levels here, mostly warehouses and barracks, and a very strong garrison. Avanthar has been besieged in the past, most lately during the 2020 AS War, but it's always a waste of time. The place is just too strong and supplied.

The climb up take forever; at least, it feels that way. There are several set of stairways; you can hire porters and palanquins, if you have the money and status, but otherwise it's just a long slog. As you go higher, the facilities do get better; the 'inns' are run by hereditary contractors, families and clans, and there are also clanhouses, temples, and barracks where the traveller can find someplace to eat and sleep. Everything is run by the Imperium through the contractors, and everything is supervised by the OAL at every stage. Security is polite, but very tight and very no nonsense; there's always visible guards and hidden watchers - "You learn to whisper in Avanthar, if you want to live out your Skein of Destiny", as the old proverb goes. Normally, a visitor would climb up to the level appropriate to their rank and status, and make their 'base camp' with their clan, temple, legion, whatever as appropriate.

You observe the protocols; you are polite to people both higher and lower then you are, and you always defer to the OAL and the Imperial officers. Think of it as combination of the Pentagon and a grand luxury hotel, and you get the idea. Move to the back of the elevator, please; or, always give way to your betters / seniors on the stairways.

Have you read the "Quarmall" short story by Fritz Leiber, Jr.? Or seen the etchings by Pirenesi?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swords_Against_Wizardry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swords_Against_Wizardry)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Battista_Piranesi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Battista_Piranesi)

Phil said he'd read "Lords of Quarmell" when he was young; and it showed; he also used to love to dust off his copy of the book of etchings to show us what he thought his underworlds - especially the Tolek Kana Prison - would look like.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 04, 2016, 05:19:49 PM
Something seems off in your Piranesi link. When I click I get an error.

This (http://www.wikigallery.org/wiki/artist36519/Giovanni-Battista-Piranesi/page-1) might work better.

http://www.wikigallery.org/wiki/artist36519/Giovanni-Battista-Piranesi/page-1
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 04, 2016, 06:20:45 PM
So, in keeping with the Avanthar theme, is there evidence that there was an occupied settlement at Avanthar throughout the various epochs of Tekumel? Could we say travel back to Llyan's Empire, or to the Time of the Dragon Warriors, or Nayari's court and find someone living in Avanthar?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 04, 2016, 07:57:13 PM
From AsenRG:
(Whispers at the staff officer:"Was it "Kaings up" or "qengs up"? I tend to mistake them, and shouting the wrong one at the troops as we leave the city would be...embarrassing. Especially if they try to comply!")

Not if it's Kaikama of Bey Su or Translucent Emerald; both are Dlamelish legions, and so this kind of thing wouldn't surprise anybody.

That's what it's meant to be. Your stories just make me think we should recommend it more.
(I bought it because a certain Rory Miller (http://www.chirontraining.com/Site/Home.html) has penned one of the articles in it. I guess I'm something of a fan).

They look good, I thought. I can see where they'd be very handy for people.

Best kind of win: guaranteed.
Just not very entertaining to watch.

Very true; I much prefer a hard-fought and challenging game. Sure things are just not entertaining... :)

Well, these are gamer types, not people - depending on how they approach mechanics. They just gave them names for ease of reference.
Of course, we don't know how any of these people would approach the roleplaying aspect. There's no such thing in M:tG, as it's a card game, after all. All we know is that Spike would pull a boxed barrage whenever he could...:)

Understood; it's just that I've met so many people who are like this in gaming...

Ah well - I might do that when I get more time.
It's not urgent, these things just sounded funny.

They are, from what little we know of them. The 1990s-on group didn't do the kind of record-keeping that we did, so while we know a lot about what happened in the OTNG from 1976 to 1988 we have very little hard data from the Monday and later Thursday groups. What we do know is mostly in the Blue Room Archives.

Hats off to Phil's skill at world-building stuff GMs can use:D!
Oh, very much so! He applied a lot of what was being done in 'wargame' campaigns to 'rpg' campaigns, and it seemed to work fine fo him. I still use a lot of the same tools, and they do work for me. I was talking to a crowd of gamers on Saturday, and I happened to mention that I am still running the meta-game in my campaign - there was much oooh! and ahhh! from them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 04, 2016, 07:58:11 PM
Quote from: Bren;906837
Something seems off in your Piranesi link. When I click I get an error.

This (http://www.wikigallery.org/wiki/artist36519/Giovanni-Battista-Piranesi/page-1) might work better.

http://www.wikigallery.org/wiki/artist36519/Giovanni-Battista-Piranesi/page-1

Huh! All I did was a cut and paste from the header, so thanks for the help!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 04, 2016, 08:09:33 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;906852
So, in keeping with the Avanthar theme, is there evidence that there was an occupied settlement at Avanthar throughout the various epochs of Tekumel? Could we say travel back to Llyan's Empire, or to the Time of the Dragon Warriors, or Nayari's court and find someone living in Avanthar?

Shemek.

Yes, and from the time of the Lords of Humanspace. Somebody carved the mountain off the range it's nominally part of, to create the great fosse that makes the place unapproachable from the landward side; we don't have access to that kind of sheer power, and I doubt anyone but the First Founder and his terraformers did.

Avanthar is, has always been, and will always be. It has seen empires come and go, and has always been a fortress and refuge for whomever controls it. On Phil's 1950s maps, it's called 'Seal's Fort', and is one of the very few places marked with a gold dot on this and his high school maps of Tsolyanu. Nayari lived in Purdanim, the Bednjallans in Bey Su, the Engsvanyali in Ganga; but there has always been a garrison in Avanthar. Think of Table Mountain in South Africa, which guards Cape Town, or Herod the Great's refuge on top of Masada. Avanthar seems to be a fixed point in the Planes of Reality, always there and always occupied by somebody or something.

"Avanthar the Mighty". We're just transient guests, for the brief time we'll be here...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 04, 2016, 08:10:17 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;906852
So, in keeping with the Avanthar theme, is there evidence that there was an occupied settlement at Avanthar throughout the various epochs of Tekumel? Could we say travel back to Llyan's Empire, or to the Time of the Dragon Warriors, or Nayari's court and find someone living in Avanthar?

Shemek.


Yes, and from the time of the Lords of Humanspace. Somebody carved the mountain off the range it's nominally part of, to create the great fosse that makes the place unapproachable from the landward side; we don't have access to that kind of sheer power, and I doubt anyone but the First Founder and his terraformers did.

Avanthar is, has always been, and will always be. It has seen empires come and go, and has always been a fortress and refuge for whomever controls it. On Phil's 1950s maps, it's called 'Seal's Fort', and is one of the very few places marked with a gold dot on this and his high school maps of Tsolyanu. Nayari lived in Purdanim, the Bednjallans in Bey Su, the Engsvanyali in Ganga; but there has always been a garrison in Avanthar. Think of Table Mountain in South Africa, which guards Cape Town, or Herod the Great's refuge on top of Masada. Avanthar seems to be a fixed point in the Planes of Reality, always there and always occupied by somebody or something.

"Avanthar the Mighty". We're just transient guests, for the brief time we'll be here...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 04, 2016, 08:22:04 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;906795
PS Happy 4th of July to you and all the Patriots here on the board!!!

Thank you! I had a great time Saturday, with a bunch of the kind of intelligent and educated people that it's fun to game with or just be with. I had a not so fun time Sunday, when I dropped by my favorite FLGS to pick up the new working portcullis kit from TRE Games; a bunch of people from the huge F/SF convention were in the back game area pontificating about how important they are in local gaming, and it got very tiresome to listen to. I made my purchase, and got the heck out of Dodge. Today has been fun; hoisted out the Bennington flag on the household flagstaff - I have a little flag locker by the front door, and we have a custom of hoisting out the appropriate flag for various holidays, like St. Davy's Day or my (Norwegian) Missus' birthday. I have the next three days off on vacation, one day at work, then the weekend before I start the new schedule and job.

It is a good holiday, if I may say so... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 05, 2016, 02:29:39 AM
Quote from: Bren;906837
Something seems off in your Piranesi link. When I click I get an error.

This (http://www.wikigallery.org/wiki/artist36519/Giovanni-Battista-Piranesi/page-1) might work better.

http://www.wikigallery.org/wiki/artist36519/Giovanni-Battista-Piranesi/page-1

I think I found and fixed the problem. Thanks for catching this!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 05, 2016, 02:42:20 AM
Oh, and happy holiday to everyone in the USA!
(I'm not from the USA, but me can be polite, right:)?)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;906863
From AsenRG:
(Whispers at the staff officer:"Was it "Kaings up" or "qengs up"? I tend to mistake them, and shouting the wrong one at the troops as we leave the city would be...embarrassing. Especially if they try to comply!")

Not if it's Kaikama of Bey Su or Translucent Emerald; both are Dlamelish legions, and so this kind of thing wouldn't surprise anybody.
OK, but then it might be a Legion of Sarku, too...:D

Quote
Best kind of win: guaranteed.
Just not very entertaining to watch.

Very true; I much prefer a hard-fought and challenging game. Sure things are just not entertaining... :)
That's true in games, yes;).

Quote
Well, these are gamer types, not people - depending on how they approach mechanics. They just gave them names for ease of reference.
Of course, we don't know how any of these people would approach the roleplaying aspect. There's no such thing in M:tG, as it's a card game, after all. All we know is that Spike would pull a boxed barrage whenever he could...:)

Understood; it's just that I've met so many people who are like this in gaming...
Oh, I've met them, too. But then, Chirine has pulled a Timmy in his big battle when he held the centre. And he pulled a Spike on quite a few people - including on a certain nest ship...

Quote
Hats off to Phil's skill at world-building stuff GMs can use:D!
Oh, very much so! He applied a lot of what was being done in 'wargame' campaigns to 'rpg' campaigns, and it seemed to work fine fo him. I still use a lot of the same tools, and they do work for me. I was talking to a crowd of gamers on Saturday, and I happened to mention that I am still running the meta-game in my campaign - there was much oooh! and ahhh! from them.
Yes, but what I was talking about was the lack of maps and the changing place. This meant he can just give you whatever he scratched from inspiration 5 minutes before the campaign, and I'm all for reducing the amount of minimum GM prep:p!

As for the meta-game, they call this a Relationship (http://www.gnomestew.com/game-mastering/gming-advice/relationship-mapping/) map (http://sgcodex.wikidot.com/relationship-maps) today, because it's usually centered on the PCs. But I've noticed that many GMs just make relationship maps that aren't centered on the PCs, but on the main actors in the setting - and that's, more or less, the meta-game...
In 2012, I had a notebook for one of my campaigns where every page detailed 1 or 2 movers and shakers of the game world. Lately, I've been using Excel for that, but I'm not sure it's all that better than the notebook...:D
Anyway, that's similar to the meta-game. I just have to include the ships on the searoads now, and more detailed notes on the legions!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 06, 2016, 01:57:30 AM
From AsenRG:
Oh, and happy holiday to everyone in the USA!
(I'm not from the USA, but me can be polite, right:)?)

And you are, too! Thank you! :)

OK, but then it might be a Legion of Sarku, too...:D
Ha! That's funny, especially in Tekumel where you just can't seem to keep a good Undead warrior down... :D
Seriously, they do take a bit of killing as they go up in level / type. The very best ones are really nasty menaces.

That's true in games, yes;).
I'd grant that. I look for different things in games and real life, like I expect most people do, and while I usually am able to set up win-win situations in the latter, I do like a bit of a challenge in the former. Just seems more fun, that way.

Oh, I've met them, too. But then, Chirine has pulled a Timmy in his big battle when he held the centre. And he pulled a Spike on quite a few people - including on a certain nest ship...
Agreed; I did show all those archetypes in the various games - the difference is that I vary the actions in each different situation. What I've seen are gamers who play the same way in every game, no matter what the setting or situation might be.

Yes, but what I was talking about was the lack of maps and the changing place. This meant he can just give you whatever he scratched from inspiration 5 minutes before the campaign, and I'm all for reducing the amount of minimum GM prep:p!
Oh, sure, that does make sense. All three of them (Gary, Dave, and Phil) had the ability to make something up on the spot during a game session, and then make it part of the world setting in later game sessions. I don't think any of them did heaps and heaps of prep for an individual game session; yes, they did have the backgrounds and settings there, but they - at least in my experience - tended to play off of what the players came up with during the game. It took (and takes) courage; all of them were intellectually honest; there was none of the 'move the ambush into their path' sort of thing with them.

As for the meta-game, they call this a Relationship (http://www.gnomestew.com/game-mastering/gming-advice/relationship-mapping/) map (http://sgcodex.wikidot.com/relationship-maps) today, because it's usually centered on the PCs. But I've noticed that many GMs just make relationship maps that aren't centered on the PCs, but on the main actors in the setting - and that's, more or less, the meta-game...
In 2012, I had a notebook for one of my campaigns where every page detailed 1 or 2 movers and shakers of the game world. Lately, I've been using Excel for that, but I'm not sure it's all that better than the notebook...:D
Anyway, that's similar to the meta-game. I just have to include the ships on the searoads now, and more detailed notes on the legions!

Fascinating link - it almost seems that what's old is new again, But then, I doubt that the author knew about Phil's meta-game, let alone about Tony Bath's work in how to run a campaign. Very useful link - I'd suggest it to anyone! Good find!
I like the idea of the notebook, too. I think that trying to use Excel would trip me up, and the process would take more effort then the data. Just me, though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: TheShadow on July 06, 2016, 07:44:34 AM
Epic thread. Hope someone is archiving it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 06, 2016, 03:17:53 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;907040
From AsenRG:
OK, but then it might be a Legion of Sarku, too...:D
Ha! That's funny, especially in Tekumel where you just can't seem to keep a good Undead warrior down... :D
Seriously, they do take a bit of killing as they go up in level / type. The very best ones are really nasty menaces.
Err, Sarku used in the same sentence as qeng...talk about "unfortunate implications":D!

Quote
I'd grant that. I look for different things in games and real life, like I expect most people do, and while I usually am able to set up win-win situations in the latter, I do like a bit of a challenge in the former. Just seems more fun, that way.
Well, I am slightly more risk-averse in real life...though arguable, not by that much:).

Quote
Agreed; I did show all those archetypes in the various games - the difference is that I vary the actions in each different situation. What I've seen are gamers who play the same way in every game, no matter what the setting or situation might be.
Yes, some people have more varied styles. I don't object either way - as long as they're not interested solely in the mechnics;).

Quote
Yes, but what I was talking about was the lack of maps and the changing place. This meant he can just give you whatever he scratched from inspiration 5 minutes before the campaign, and I'm all for reducing the amount of minimum GM prep:p!
Oh, sure, that does make sense. All three of them (Gary, Dave, and Phil) had the ability to make something up on the spot during a game session, and then make it part of the world setting in later game sessions. I don't think any of them did heaps and heaps of prep for an individual game session; yes, they did have the backgrounds and settings there, but they - at least in my experience - tended to play off of what the players came up with during the game. It took (and takes) courage; all of them were intellectually honest; there was none of the 'move the ambush into their path' sort of thing with them.
Yeah, the lack of intellectual honesty is what gets me in some styles...

Quote
As for the meta-game, they call this a Relationship (http://www.gnomestew.com/game-mastering/gming-advice/relationship-mapping/) map (http://sgcodex.wikidot.com/relationship-maps) today, because it's usually centered on the PCs. But I've noticed that many GMs just make relationship maps that aren't centered on the PCs, but on the main actors in the setting - and that's, more or less, the meta-game...
In 2012, I had a notebook for one of my campaigns where every page detailed 1 or 2 movers and shakers of the game world. Lately, I've been using Excel for that, but I'm not sure it's all that better than the notebook...:D
Anyway, that's similar to the meta-game. I just have to include the ships on the searoads now, and more detailed notes on the legions!

Fascinating link - it almost seems that what's old is new again, But then, I doubt that the author knew about Phil's meta-game, let alone about Tony Bath's work in how to run a campaign. Very useful link - I'd suggest it to anyone! Good find!
I like the idea of the notebook, too. I think that trying to use Excel would trip me up, and the process would take more effort then the data. Just me, though.
That, or "there's a few highly useful ways of organizing your campaign that each generation re-discovers"...;)

And I'm almost prone to agree with you on the Excel:p. But it allows for using the Search option, so it saves time when you need to reference it during the game.

Quote from: The_Shadow;907061
Epic thread. Hope someone is archiving it.
I agree, preferably in searchable format;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 06, 2016, 10:55:44 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;906867
Thank you! I had a great time Saturday, with a bunch of the kind of intelligent and educated people that it's fun to game with or just be with. I had a not so fun time Sunday, when I dropped by my favorite FLGS to pick up the new working portcullis kit from TRE Games; a bunch of people from the huge F/SF convention were in the back game area pontificating about how important they are in local gaming, and it got very tiresome to listen to. I made my purchase, and got the heck out of Dodge. Today has been fun; hoisted out the Bennington flag on the household flagstaff - I have a little flag locker by the front door, and we have a custom of hoisting out the appropriate flag for various holidays, like St. Davy's Day or my (Norwegian) Missus' birthday. I have the next three days off on vacation, one day at work, then the weekend before I start the new schedule and job.

It is a good holiday, if I may say so... :)

It was absolutely delightful seeing you in person again, in a situation where there was a chance to just talk.

And you're right, the Lamb Vindaloo was wonderful.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 06, 2016, 11:44:43 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;907040
As for the meta-game, they call this a Relationship (http://www.gnomestew.com/game-mastering/gming-advice/relationship-mapping/) map (http://sgcodex.wikidot.com/relationship-maps) today, because it's usually centered on the PCs. But I've noticed that many GMs just make relationship maps that aren't centered on the PCs, but on the main actors in the setting - and that's, more or less, the meta-game...
Thanks for the link. I did a version in PowerPoint (http://honorandintrigue.blogspot.com/2016/07/relationship-maps.html) for my H+I campaign. Now to see if my players will do their homework.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 07, 2016, 01:48:24 AM
Quote from: The_Shadow;907061
Epic thread. Hope someone is archiving it.

Well, that would be cool. It's something that's outside my skill set, so I'll defer to the technologically able. Happy to help in any way I can, though... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 07, 2016, 01:59:49 AM
From AsenRG:
Err, Sarku used in the same sentence as qeng...talk about "unfortunate implications":D!
The guy who played Qutmu (the Sarku-worshipping general) did it all the time. :eek:

Well, I am slightly more risk-averse in real life...though arguable, not by that much:).
Oh, true; Chirine takes more risks then I do, but he gets paid for it. I am very risk averse, myself, and always try to set things up to it's an optimal situation.

Yes, some people have more varied styles. I don't object either way - as long as they're not interested solely in the mechnics;).
Yes! This is the problem I had with my visit to the local FLGS on Sunday, where when the denizens were not extolling their own virtues they were going on and on and on and on about the nitty-gritty of their game mechanics. Put me right off my feed, it did.

Yeah, the lack of intellectual honesty is what gets me in some styles...
I just can't get my head around the idea that the GM is not being an honest broker. There was one time that a player told one of the other players that he thought I was lying to them, and I stopped the game dead on the spot. I made the distinction between me the GM, and me doing the NPCs, and if he couldn't tell the difference we needed to have a long talk.

That, or "there's a few highly useful ways of organizing your campaign that each generation re-discovers"...;)
True, I think. It just seems to this old man that each new generation thinks that there's nothing to learn from the past.

And I'm almost prone to agree with you on the Excel:p. But it allows for using the Search option, so it saves time when you need to reference it during the game.
Understood. I keep track of things in my head, and I tend to just pull stuff off the shelf in the game room - but then, I have the luxury of being able to do so! :)

I agree, preferably in searchable format;).
If somebody can do this, I'm all for it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 07, 2016, 02:18:23 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;907148
It was absolutely delightful seeing you in person again, in a situation where there was a chance to just talk.

And you're right, the Lamb Vindaloo was wonderful.

It was fun, and the conversation educated and intelligent. I thought that the 'young folks', Ray, Todd, Bob's daughter, and the young lady who was with Todd asked us old veterans a lot of very good questions - it made for a very good time, and I'd love to have them ask me more about our antics back in Ye Olden Dayes. What I found especially delightful was the looks on their young faces as I told stories about our games and adventures and they realized that their parents were really cool people...

I have to say that Sunday's visit to the FLGS to pick up the (working!) portcullis kits was really a sharp contrast. There were a fair number of people in from Convergence (the annual 3,000 - 4,000 member F/SF convention, here in town) and the conversations were all, well, banal in comparison to those on Saturday. It really did put me off my feed; I was looking at the TRE Games 'Pteradon' skyship kit with an eye to using in Barsoom games, when I realized that all the conversations I was hearing were the exact same kind of thing we'd heard for years on the convention circuit manning the booth for Dave and AGI. I had this horrible feeling that if I ever did run a Barsoom game there, nobody would understand what I was talking about, let alone 'get' why there were miniatures being used in an RPG without a grid or battlemat. (I think the latter has a lot to do with D&D 4E, myself.)

The contrast, as I say, was startling. It's like the people on this forum or at Gary Con and the people at Con of the North or Convergence. The former are our Saturday, and the latter my Sunday.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 07, 2016, 08:59:43 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;907170
From AsenRG:
Err, Sarku used in the same sentence as qeng...talk about "unfortunate implications":D!
The guy who played Qutmu (the Sarku-worshipping general) did it all the time. :eek:
Eww!
I had the unpleasant experience of playing with people like that a few times. The last time was a guy who desperately wanted to know, in a game about dragon riders, the consistency and quantity of the dragon poop in the homebrew setting. He's now forbidden from ever applying for a session with me (or rather, people that know us both are forbidden from bringing him to play).

Quote
Well, I am slightly more risk-averse in real life...though arguable, not by that much:).
Oh, true; Chirine takes more risks then I do, but he gets paid for it. I am very risk averse, myself, and always try to set things up to it's an optimal situation.
Well, if I wanted to play myself all the time, I wouldn't need dice...:)

Quote
Yes, some people have more varied styles. I don't object either way - as long as they're not interested solely in the mechnics;).
Yes! This is the problem I had with my visit to the local FLGS on Sunday, where when the denizens were not extolling their own virtues they were going on and on and on and on about the nitty-gritty of their game mechanics. Put me right off my feed, it did.
I know the feeling.
Me: "Tell us a story of your PCs being epic".
Someone: "There was one time I rolled a critical and dealt over 100 damage..."
Me: "That's not what 'epic' means".

Quote
Yeah, the lack of intellectual honesty is what gets me in some styles...
I just can't get my head around the idea that the GM is not being an honest broker. There was one time that a player told one of the other players that he thought I was lying to them, and I stopped the game dead on the spot. I made the distinction between me the GM, and me doing the NPCs, and if he couldn't tell the difference we needed to have a long talk.
You and me both.
Watch out for the players that demand that you lie to them. "What, the GM isn't going to ensure our success? We're here to achieve epic deeds" is...disturbingly popular.
Many people don't realize that my default answer "I don't think me and you are looking for the same things in an RPG" is actually the diplomatic way of saying "get lost".

Quote
That, or "there's a few highly useful ways of organizing your campaign that each generation re-discovers"...;)
True, I think. It just seems to this old man that each new generation thinks that there's nothing to learn from the past.
Well...it might be that this is a weakness of every new generation (except ours).

Quote
And I'm almost prone to agree with you on the Excel:p. But it allows for using the Search option, so it saves time when you need to reference it during the game.
Understood. I keep track of things in my head, and I tend to just pull stuff off the shelf in the game room - but then, I have the luxury of being able to do so! :)
You're rumoured to have better memory than most of us, too;).

Quote
I agree, preferably in searchable format.
If somebody can do this, I'm all for it.
Hear, people:D?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;907171
The contrast, as I say, was startling. It's like the people on this forum or at Gary Con and the people at Con of the North or Convergence. The former are our Saturday, and the latter my Sunday.
Personally, I'm honoured to be compared to the Saturday Night Group!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 08, 2016, 02:23:28 AM
From AsenRG:
Eww!
I had the unpleasant experience of playing with people like that a few times. The last time was a guy who desperately wanted to know, in a game about dragon riders, the consistency and quantity of the dragon poop in the homebrew setting. He's now forbidden from ever applying for a session with me (or rather, people that know us both are forbidden from bringing him to play).

All righty, then; we'll just cross him off our 'welcome' list, shall we... :eek:

Well, if I wanted to play myself all the time, I wouldn't need dice...:)
Understood. :) I do it in real life; you'd be amazed at just how many people don't realize that I'm applying classic game theory to situations.

I know the feeling.
Me: "Tell us a story of your PCs being epic".
Someone: "There was one time I rolled a critical and dealt over 100 damage..."
Me: "That's not what 'epic' means".

Gods, yes! If I wanted to hear about number crunching and dice-rolling, I'd let one know; I want to hear about 'adventures'...

You and me both.
Watch out for the players that demand that you lie to them. "What, the GM isn't going to ensure our success? We're here to achieve epic deeds" is...disturbingly popular.
Many people don't realize that my default answer "I don't think me and you are looking for the same things in an RPG" is actually the diplomatic way of saying "get lost".

Agreed. There are days - like Sunday - when I really and truly despair for the hobby. I've been told over and over again - usually by OSR people - that I have no idea what 'the modern gamer' wants. Okay, I'll grant that - but it's not what I want, so parting company is probably the best option.

Well...it might be that this is a weakness of every new generation (except ours).
This could very well be true; I get the feeling that there's so little known by 'modern gamers' about the past history of the hobby that they simply don't know that a lot of these things have been looked at in the past and possible solutions devised. There are a lot of 'forgotten sages', I think...

You're rumoured to have better memory than most of us, too;).
True. I just need to write faster... :)

Hear, people:D?
Like I say, I'd support it; it's just outside my skill set.

Personally, I'm honoured to be compared to the Saturday Night Group!
You're welcome! It was a very intelligent and clever bunch of people, much like the folks around here, and it was a joy to be there.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on July 08, 2016, 03:19:08 AM
Chirine,

I can sympathise with your inability to comprehend the outlook of so many 'modern' gamers. Those of us who were adults when role-playing first started and are now in our golden years often come across people who just cannot fathom that some of us have been there and done things and they don't have a lock on working out things or making great leaps and bounds in understanding how to game. Many of us have already been there and done that and often discarded it as not working very well or possibly causing more trouble than it's worth.

There's a consistent failure to want to examine anything out of the ordinary with an uphill struggle to get players out of the 'I hit it with my axe' mindset and into a more evocative style of narrating the result of a combat. I'm not asking for full on acting just asking for a small amount of flavour to add to the game and help the story along. Their inability to even consider anything outside the regular week-in, week-out plod of the regular game even extending to a wish to play the same-old, same-old at conventions where there is a plethora of different, new and exciting games on offer amazes me. I suppose it's why we laud explorer and adventurers in real life as so many are just content to put one foot in front of another day in, day out and do the same in their leisure time as well.

I'll go and mow the lawn if the kids will get off it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 08, 2016, 11:14:24 AM
"It is the young scholar who is pedantic." -- C. S. Lewis

I have mixed feelings about the "narration of combat."  I'd rather they learned tactics, myself.  I'm kind of in the "and then the EARS, I get the POINT, get ON with it" school.

YMMV.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 09, 2016, 04:48:47 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;907354
From AsenRG:
Well, if I wanted to play myself all the time, I wouldn't need dice...:)
Understood. :) I do it in real life; you'd be amazed at just how many people don't realize that I'm applying classic game theory to situations.

So am I, though mixed with some strategy...
People are amazed, indeed.

Quote
I know the feeling.
Me: "Tell us a story of your PCs being epic".
Someone: "There was one time I rolled a critical and dealt over 100 damage..."
Me: "That's not what 'epic' means".

Gods, yes! If I wanted to hear about number crunching and dice-rolling, I'd let one know; I want to hear about 'adventures'...

Obviously a shared feeling:).

Quote
Agreed. There are days - like Sunday - when I really and truly despair for the hobby. I've been told over and over again - usually by OSR people - that I have no idea what 'the modern gamer' wants. Okay, I'll grant that - but it's not what I want, so parting company is probably the best option.

As a modern gamer, probably younger than some of the people that said this, I take exception to their claims;).

Quote
This could very well be true; I get the feeling that there's so little known by 'modern gamers' about the past history of the hobby that they simply don't know that a lot of these things have been looked at in the past and possible solutions devised. There are a lot of 'forgotten sages', I think...

That is indeed true in my observation.
You learn more with age. But by then you stop counting as a "modern gamer" - I feel I'm on the verge of that, and am actively exploiting it.

Quote
True. I just need to write faster... :)

Indeed.

Quote
Personally, I'm honoured to be compared to the Saturday Night Group!
You're welcome! It was a very intelligent and clever bunch of people, much like the folks around here, and it was a joy to be there.

That's why I'm honoured...

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;907361
Chirine,

I can sympathise with your inability to comprehend the outlook of so many 'modern' gamers. Those of us who were adults when role-playing first started and are now in our golden years often come across people who just cannot fathom that some of us have been there and done things and they don't have a lock on working out things or making great leaps and bounds in understanding how to game. Many of us have already been there and done that and often discarded it as not working very well or possibly causing more trouble than it's worth.

I wasn't born when roleplaying first started, and I can't comprehend that outlook:D!
On the other hand, I've observed the same attitude in people of presumably your age. I think being too set in your ways and having a sense of superiority are both age-independent.

Quote
There's a consistent failure to want to examine anything out of the ordinary with an uphill struggle to get players out of the 'I hit it with my axe' mindset and into a more evocative style of narrating the result of a combat. I'm not asking for full on acting just asking for a small amount of flavour to add to the game and help the story along. Their inability to even consider anything outside the regular week-in, week-out plod of the regular game even extending to a wish to play the same-old, same-old at conventions where there is a plethora of different, new and exciting games on offer amazes me. I suppose it's why we laud explorer and adventurers in real life as so many are just content to put one foot in front of another day in, day out and do the same in their leisure time as well.

I tend to do it the simple way - by offering them bonuses if they learn description. Sometimes coupled with a system that hurts them if they're being stupid:p.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;907393
"It is the young scholar who is pedantic." -- C. S. Lewis

I have mixed feelings about the "narration of combat."  I'd rather they learned tactics, myself.  I'm kind of in the "and then the EARS, I get the POINT, get ON with it" school.

YMMV.

And they should learn tactics as well no doubt about that;).
One of my online games right now almost had a PC killed because the enemy had the remote to the lamps in the cabin where they were fighting.
Title: Military Priests
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 09, 2016, 08:49:07 PM
I was on the Blue Room site again, I know I am repeating myself but what an absolute gold mine, and I found this post by Phil and thought it would be worth sharing here.
Is there anything further  that you can add to this Chirine?

"There are two categories that must be distinguished: "temple guard units"
and "military sorcerer priests" who serve in the magic-using units
assigned by certain temples to Imperial legions

The former are mostly just soldiers: individuals who have a little
priestly training and a lot of soldierly expertise. These are
assigned to guard temples, escort priestly caravans and entourages,
protect temple property (both in the temples and elsewhere), and
generally serve as "palace guards" for the religious institutions
to which they belong. These people have ranks very similar to regular
soldiers and are structured as "legions." Most Imperial army troops
do not consider "temple legions" as good as regular units, although
this is not true in all cases, certainly.

Temple guards need not rise in priestly rank in order to become
officers of their units. A temple guard unit does tend to be *led*
by "regular" priests, however: the Kerdu (general), the two
Dritlanyal, and the two Molkaryal ("colonels" and "majors," if
you like) are most often administrative or ritual priests in the
temple. A lower officer (e.g. Kasi -- "captain") may never rise
higher than that rank unless he is talented, rich, or otherwise
favoured by the administrators of his temple. Some temple guard
officers do continue to study priestly skills in their spare time
-- of which they do not have much -- and eventually go on to "rise
from the ranks" to higher officer posts, or else go on to become
"regular" priests (ritual, administrative, etc.) in the hierarchy.

The second group of "military priests" consists of the sorcerers
who belong to the magic-using contingent fielded by a temple or
legion. These people are usually full-fledged sorcerer-priests.
They may have begun as ritual or administrative priests, or as
regular scholars, but for various reasons, they gravitated away
from these roles and went into the very specialised magical
contingent. Some of these may feel that they lack the talent or
interest to go on to higher levels as academicians; others enjoy
soldiering and the outdoor life but do not want to give up their
priestly pre-requisites and become "regular troops"; still others
actually thrive on developing their group military spells and
working with comrades in combat situations. Being a "sorcerer-
military-priest" is not easy. It involves long hours of group
practice and hard work, plus all the perils of battle -- and being
a target for incoming enemy sorcery! Such priests cannot go off
adventuring because of time and training constraints; they have to
obey orders (like them or not), and they are often the first ones
to be sacrificed if captured. I thus have discouraged players from
taking on these roles, although some indeed might find them
interesting for short periods. These people have regular priestly
ranks and pre-requisites and are *not* considered to be soldiers in
any sense. They may retire from this sub-profession and go back to
being ritual or administrative priests. Sometimes they can return
to one or another scholarly profession, too, although this is less
common. The temples prefer to employ retired military sorcerer
priests in ritual or administrative roles, feeling, perhaps, that
they are temperamentally no longer suited to the "ivory-tower"
scholasticism of the temple schools and academies."


Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 10, 2016, 12:21:28 AM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;907361
Chirine,

I can sympathise with your inability to comprehend the outlook of so many 'modern' gamers. Those of us who were adults when role-playing first started and are now in our golden years often come across people who just cannot fathom that some of us have been there and done things and they don't have a lock on working out things or making great leaps and bounds in understanding how to game. Many of us have already been there and done that and often discarded it as not working very well or possibly causing more trouble than it's worth.

There's a consistent failure to want to examine anything out of the ordinary with an uphill struggle to get players out of the 'I hit it with my axe' mindset and into a more evocative style of narrating the result of a combat. I'm not asking for full on acting just asking for a small amount of flavour to add to the game and help the story along. Their inability to even consider anything outside the regular week-in, week-out plod of the regular game even extending to a wish to play the same-old, same-old at conventions where there is a plethora of different, new and exciting games on offer amazes me. I suppose it's why we laud explorer and adventurers in real life as so many are just content to put one foot in front of another day in, day out and do the same in their leisure time as well.

I'll go and mow the lawn if the kids will get off it.

Great observations! Yep, this has been my experience as well; lots of really good 'indie' games out there, but not getting any exposure outside forums like this one because they are not 'name brand'. Miniatures gamin is in the same boat; if you don't play and 'collect' - a word which, along with 'premium' (as in 'premium game experience') I have come to loathe - the current name brand you don't get any gaming in.

. So it goes. I've hung out my shingle, and if there's no business there's no business. Means a lot of time to write and paint, and a lot less damage, breakage, and 'misplacement' in the shelves.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 10, 2016, 12:28:18 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;907393
"It is the young scholar who is pedantic." -- C. S. Lewis

I have mixed feelings about the "narration of combat."  I'd rather they learned tactics, myself.  I'm kind of in the "and then the EARS, I get the POINT, get ON with it" school.

YMMV.

I'm a-thinkn' he's a-talkin 'bout what we were a-talkin' 'bout while sittin' 'round the campfire last Saturday, where you pointed out the amazement and fascination of your players with the notion that all that had to do was say "I'm holding my shield to cover the magic-user and I try to hit the goblin." and you'd say "roll". The usual thing seems to be to look on the flowchart and see what 'feats' and such can be brought into action so that my algorithm can engage your algorithm in some number-crunching. (I have computers that can do all that for me, and in a fraction of the time.)

There's some humor in there, too; "I Hit It With My Axe" podcasts caused quite the stir in the OSR, I gather. On several different levels.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on July 10, 2016, 12:33:42 AM
What I love about GURPS is that it's possible to model described combat in game terms.  "I splash acid in his eye!"  Okay, you're close enough, roll to hit at -10 if you miss by 2 you hit his face instead.  "I fast draw my short sword, and swing at his neck."  Roll fast draw, roll to hit at -5, +4 for all out attack, target rolls IQ to avoid mental stun, trys to defend, -4 if stunned.  Okay the last one was me and I took the guy's head off in a single blow.  The GM just sat there stunned for 1d6 rounds.  System mastery means understanding the implications of the rules, not just how to recite them by rote.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 10, 2016, 12:43:28 AM
From AsenRG:
So am I, though mixed with some strategy... People are amazed, indeed.
Which I find rather odd, because for a while "Art of War' and the "Book of Five Rings" were the 'required reading' of American businessmen. These days? Nobody's heard of them.

Obviously a shared feeling:).
Well, yes. I'm with Gronan, here' what ever happened to 'adventure'? Grey Mouser and his tall friend would never get any traction in gaming these days, I fear.

As a modern gamer, probably younger than some of the people that said this, I take exception to their claims;).
Understood. From conversations I've had on-line, this is a pretty common sentiment amongst 'non-connected' gamers who are not of the One True Faith. These are the people I enjoy talking to, not the latter.

That is indeed true in my observation.
You learn more with age. But by then you stop counting as a "modern gamer" - I feel I'm on the verge of that, and am actively exploiting it.

Um, true, I think. But them the more experience one has, the more one realizes that one needs to keep learning. I think.

That's why I'm honoured...
You're welcome! :)

I wasn't born when roleplaying first started, and I can't comprehend that outlook:D!
On the other hand, I've observed the same attitude in people of presumably your age. I think being too set in your ways and having a sense of superiority are both age-independent.

Yes, very much so. I don't think it's particularly 'age-related' but much more by the 'generation' of gaming when they got into the hobby. I'm continually bemused by the High Priests Of The Great God Gygax, who will quote chapter and verse from the Sacred Scrolls at the drop of a hat. The Arnesonians are less like like that, mostly because there are fewer of them and more of them actually played with Dave. (Also, Dave left behind a lot fewer of The Sacred Scrolls, too.)

I tend to do it the simple way - by offering them bonuses if they learn description. Sometimes coupled with a system that hurts them if they're being stupid:p.
Phil did the same thing; we learned to pay attention, because when Phil bothered to unlimber the details they were usually pretty relevant to what we were doing or were about to do.

And they should learn tactics as well no doubt about that;).
One of my online games right now almost had a PC killed because the enemy had the remote to the lamps in the cabin where they were fighting.

What? Really? Nobody in the party took a look at the place to get a feel for the way the cabin worked? In our day - we were just talking about this in relation to the 'Adventure of the Mummified Pot-roast', looking for stuff like this was the 'usual drill'.

We need to get out the IKEA lanterns, my General.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 10, 2016, 01:04:26 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;907609
I was on the Blue Room site again, I know I am repeating myself but what an absolute gold mine, and I found this post by Phil and thought it would be worth sharing here.
Is there anything further  that you can add to this Chirine?

"There are two categories that must be distinguished: "temple guard units"
and "military sorcerer priests" who serve in the magic-using units
assigned by certain temples to Imperial legions

The former are mostly just soldiers: individuals who have a little
priestly training and a lot of soldierly expertise. These are
assigned to guard temples, escort priestly caravans and entourages,
protect temple property (both in the temples and elsewhere), and
generally serve as "palace guards" for the religious institutions
to which they belong. These people have ranks very similar to regular
soldiers and are structured as "legions." Most Imperial army troops
do not consider "temple legions" as good as regular units, although
this is not true in all cases, certainly.

Temple guards need not rise in priestly rank in order to become
officers of their units. A temple guard unit does tend to be *led*
by "regular" priests, however: the Kerdu (general), the two
Dritlanyal, and the two Molkaryal ("colonels" and "majors," if
you like) are most often administrative or ritual priests in the
temple. A lower officer (e.g. Kasi -- "captain") may never rise
higher than that rank unless he is talented, rich, or otherwise
favoured by the administrators of his temple. Some temple guard
officers do continue to study priestly skills in their spare time
-- of which they do not have much -- and eventually go on to "rise
from the ranks" to higher officer posts, or else go on to become
"regular" priests (ritual, administrative, etc.) in the hierarchy.

Shemek.

Right; let me break this into two replies, if I may. Temple Guards are basically more like police forces then regular military; there's a lot more training for what we'd call 'crowd control' then the regulars get - different spheres of employment. They don;t get a lot of military action, unless it's a pretty dire emergency - which is why the regulars don't hold them in the highest esteem. Their 'units' are based on the size of their templas and the towns and cities that they are located in. Only the biggest cities, like Bey Su and Jakalla, with have the full sets of officers - and even then, the total guard force in those cities is cohort-sized and not a 'full' (the regulars would say 'real') legion. What you see is a lot of twenty-trooper sections, lead by a Hereksa; these are the normal-sized units in the smaller towns and cities; the larger cities have several of these, under a Kasi or two; depends on the military bent of the temple and how rich they are. The Molkars and Dritlans handle the administrative work in coordinating the activities and paperwork of the multiple small detachments - effectively, they run a province's worth of small detachments. The Kerdu is usually more of an administrative and ceremonial position, much like a Colonel-in-Chief is.

The non-military temples tend not to have actual priests in officer slots, except at the very highest levels. Normally, a lot of these people are ex-military or from clans with a strong military background. One thing to note is that the temple guards are all of the same faith as their temple; there is no 'cross-hiring' that we ever saw. They all have the very basic training that a priest gets, but not much more then that. It is, one has to admit, where a lot of the people who don't do well in their temple classes wind up.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 10, 2016, 01:40:15 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;907609
I was on the Blue Room site again, I know I am repeating myself but what an absolute gold mine, and I found this post by Phil and thought it would be worth sharing here.
Is there anything further  that you can add to this Chirine?

The second group of "military priests" consists of the sorcerers
who belong to the magic-using contingent fielded by a temple or
legion. These people are usually full-fledged sorcerer-priests.
They may have begun as ritual or administrative priests, or as
regular scholars, but for various reasons, they gravitated away
from these roles and went into the very specialised magical
contingent. Some of these may feel that they lack the talent or
interest to go on to higher levels as academicians; others enjoy
soldiering and the outdoor life but do not want to give up their
priestly pre-requisites and become "regular troops"; still others
actually thrive on developing their group military spells and
working with comrades in combat situations. Being a "sorcerer-
military-priest" is not easy. It involves long hours of group
practice and hard work, plus all the perils of battle -- and being
a target for incoming enemy sorcery! Such priests cannot go off
adventuring because of time and training constraints; they have to
obey orders (like them or not), and they are often the first ones
to be sacrificed if captured. I thus have discouraged players from
taking on these roles, although some indeed might find them
interesting for short periods. These people have regular priestly
ranks and pre-requisites and are *not* considered to be soldiers in
any sense. They may retire from this sub-profession and go back to
being ritual or administrative priests. Sometimes they can return
to one or another scholarly profession, too, although this is less
common. The temples prefer to employ retired military sorcerer
priests in ritual or administrative roles, feeling, perhaps, that
they are temperamentally no longer suited to the "ivory-tower"
scholasticism of the temple schools and academies."

Shemek.

My alter-ego started off as a student intending to be a scholar-priest - a historian, actually - when the temple looked at his test scores and shunted him over into the military sorcerer track. What pushed him over into a military career was his being sent as a newbie off to help put down the slave revolt in Ferenara; they were pretty short-handed, he had the needed skills for blasting things into oblivion, and he was expendable; no particularly good clan connections, no money to speak of, just one really good sorcerer with a talent for logistics. (More of a case of the right guy being in the wrong place at the wrong time, then anything else.) He got a reputation for getting the job done, on time and under budget, as well as a reputation for absolute loyalty to the Petal Throne and a well-deserved reputation for not minding breaking a few eggs to make an omelette. In short he killed a lot of people whom the Imperium felt needed killing, and didn't make a lot of mistakes in the process.

The back-story is that Phil took one look at my stats (STR 86, INT 98, CON 97, PSY 00, DEX 89, COM 12) and 'suggested' that I should be a magic-user. I replied that we already had plenty of those, and I had a preference for hitting people over the head with blunt objects; Phil turned to the page in EPT with the 'Priest' class/category/career track. So, I became a warrior-priest of the Temple of Vimuhla, and then spent most of my time cleaning up after the rest of the party. They tended to be a little casual about the details on their adventures, so I got to handle the metaphorical dust-pan and broom for the group.

All of this brought my alter-ego to the attention of Lord Huso, the not-so-secret head of the not-so-secret Incandescent Blaze Society, and that led to a career of 'Errand Boy to the Petal Throne' and 'Chief Exterminator Of Those Whom The Imperium Needs to Have Exterminated'.  He's nominally a Kasi with the Legion of the Searing Flame, and collects pay for that, as well as being carried on the rolls of the Legion of Mnashu of Thri'il as Kasi; this, despite it being a Karakan legion, and he's a Vimuhla priest. The Imperium commands, and we obey. I also get a temple stipend, as I'm nominally listed as being assigned to the temple at Bey Su, as well as a personal stipend from the Petal Throne for - shall we say, 'services rendered' - in Khirgar when some git tried to assassinate the newly-revealed Prince Mirusiya hi Tlakotani.

Phil is quite right when he says that the military priests don't go on adventures - they are, as he points out, too busy. I'm not in the usual career track; if anything, I am way outside it and in a very different line of work altogether.

Does any of this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 10, 2016, 02:10:40 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;907627
What I love about GURPS is that it's possible to model described combat in game terms.  "I splash acid in his eye!"  Okay, you're close enough, roll to hit at -10 if you miss by 2 you hit his face instead.  "I fast draw my short sword, and swing at his neck."  Roll fast draw, roll to hit at -5, +4 for all out attack, target rolls IQ to avoid mental stun, trys to defend, -4 if stunned.  Okay the last one was me and I took the guy's head off in a single blow.  The GM just sat there stunned for 1d6 rounds.  System mastery means understanding the implications of the rules, not just how to recite them by rote.


I have played such games, and I loathe them.  To quote Dave Arneson, "too many rules."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 10, 2016, 03:24:11 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;907635
I have played such games, and I loathe them.  To quote Dave Arneson, "too many rules."

Ah. Sorry; I misunderstood.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on July 10, 2016, 10:49:27 AM
Sure, and I'm well aware of that.  As a matter of fact I've long argued for a slimmed down core for GURPS as a way to bring in new players.  At it's core GURPS is 3d6 under stat or skill with skills being based on stats.  Hit locations are optional though combat is still pretty detailed.  But GURPS combat started as a detailed, one on one gladiatorial game, in Man to Man and carries that heritage.I'm more in love with the combat system than character creation which is so choked with options that you need to know the game pretty well even though the basic method is a simple points buy.

There's plenty of complex games that I don't like as well.  But I do prefer a detailed blow by blow to abstraction.  When I run D&D for the kids at the store I spend more time explaining that the damage roll indicates how an exchange of many blows came out than I do actually running combat.

But my original point was just that such a system can model exciting and interesting results well.  This isn't a GURPS thread after all.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 10, 2016, 11:51:49 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;907634
My alter-ego started off as a student intending to be a scholar-priest - a historian, actually - when the temple looked at his test scores and shunted him over into the military sorcerer track. What pushed him over into a military career was his being sent as a newbie off to help put down the slave revolt in Ferenara; they were pretty short-handed, he had the needed skills for blasting things into oblivion, and he was expendable; no particularly good clan connections, no money to speak of, just one really good sorcerer with a talent for logistics. (More of a case of the right guy being in the wrong place at the wrong time, then anything else.) He got a reputation for getting the job done, on time and under budget, as well as a reputation for absolute loyalty to the Petal Throne and a well-deserved reputation for not minding breaking a few eggs to make an omelette. In short he killed a lot of people whom the Imperium felt needed killing, and didn't make a lot of mistakes in the process.

The back-story is that Phil took one look at my stats (STR 86, INT 98, CON 97, PSY 00, DEX 89, COM 12) and 'suggested' that I should be a magic-user. I replied that we already had plenty of those, and I had a preference for hitting people over the head with blunt objects; Phil turned to the page in EPT with the 'Priest' class/category/career track. So, I became a warrior-priest of the Temple of Vimuhla, and then spent most of my time cleaning up after the rest of the party. They tended to be a little casual about the details on their adventures, so I got to handle the metaphorical dust-pan and broom for the group.

All of this brought my alter-ego to the attention of Lord Huso, the not-so-secret head of the not-so-secret Incandescent Blaze Society, and that led to a career of 'Errand Boy to the Petal Throne' and 'Chief Exterminator Of Those Whom The Imperium Needs to Have Exterminated'.  He's nominally a Kasi with the Legion of the Searing Flame, and collects pay for that, as well as being carried on the rolls of the Legion of Mnashu of Thri'il as Kasi; this, despite it being a Karakan legion, and he's a Vimuhla priest. The Imperium commands, and we obey. I also get a temple stipend, as I'm nominally listed as being assigned to the temple at Bey Su, as well as a personal stipend from the Petal Throne for - shall we say, 'services rendered' - in Khirgar when some git tried to assassinate the newly-revealed Prince Mirusiya hi Tlakotani.

Phil is quite right when he says that the military priests don't go on adventures - they are, as he points out, too busy. I'm not in the usual career track; if anything, I am way outside it and in a very different line of work altogether.

Does any of this help?

Thank you. :)

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 10, 2016, 12:15:26 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;907657
Sure, and I'm well aware of that.  As a matter of fact I've long argued for a slimmed down core for GURPS as a way to bring in new players.  At it's core GURPS is 3d6 under stat or skill with skills being based on stats.  Hit locations are optional though combat is still pretty detailed.  But GURPS combat started as a detailed, one on one gladiatorial game, in Man to Man and carries that heritage.I'm more in love with the combat system than character creation which is so choked with options that you need to know the game pretty well even though the basic method is a simple points buy.

There's plenty of complex games that I don't like as well.  But I do prefer a detailed blow by blow to abstraction.  When I run D&D for the kids at the store I spend more time explaining that the damage roll indicates how an exchange of many blows came out than I do actually running combat.

But my original point was just that such a system can model exciting and interesting results well.  This isn't a GURPS thread after all.

As I have been telling my group of players for years: "This is the beauty of Tekumel. You can use any rule system, or no rules at all and still adventure in it." My group has been using a combination of EPT, and AD&D for years  and it works fine, although I feel that we could be even more streamlined and reduce everything to a simple percentile roll with appropriate modifiers. Old habits die hard I guess.
 I knew someone who set up a Tekumel campaign using Rolemaster, and it worked fine for him and his group. It all comes down to what "floats your boat". I'm more in the "Gronan camp", I prefer less rules, but I do not think that a more rules intensive game is a bad thing. So long as consistency is maintained it's all good.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 10, 2016, 12:38:16 PM
Chirine,
I was recently looking at the Tekumel map, and I noticed that there are cities/towns indicated on the islands of Hlyssa and Ssru Gatl. It is my understanding that these lands are ruled by the Hlyss, but were they once controlled by man? Are these towns/cities abandoned human ruins or do the Hlyss live there?
The word Hlyss. Is this the Tsolyani name for these creatures? Do you know what the Livyani, or Salarvyani call them?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 10, 2016, 05:39:14 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;907638
Ah. Sorry; I misunderstood.

...I think the conversational thread has gotten scrambled, I thought I was replying to someone else, old bean.  I was referring to highly detailed moment-by-moment rules sets like GURPS.

Once upon a time, I must admit, I was striving for such a thing, but nowadays OD&D with its one minute combat round and "after a full minute of swording* away furiously have you done anything useful to the other bugger" die roll model appeals to me.


*in the word "swording", the "w" is not silent
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 10, 2016, 05:40:48 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;907657
Sure, and I'm well aware of that.  As a matter of fact I've long argued for a slimmed down core for GURPS as a way to bring in new players.  At it's core GURPS is 3d6 under stat or skill with skills being based on stats.  Hit locations are optional though combat is still pretty detailed.  But GURPS combat started as a detailed, one on one gladiatorial game, in Man to Man and carries that heritage.I'm more in love with the combat system than character creation which is so choked with options that you need to know the game pretty well even though the basic method is a simple points buy.

There's plenty of complex games that I don't like as well.  But I do prefer a detailed blow by blow to abstraction.  When I run D&D for the kids at the store I spend more time explaining that the damage roll indicates how an exchange of many blows came out than I do actually running combat.

But my original point was just that such a system can model exciting and interesting results well.  This isn't a GURPS thread after all.

Oh, okay, thanks for the clarification.

Actually, I must admit that a very detailed combat system is a lot of fun for one-on-one gaming; I played Fantasy Trip that way for several years.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on July 10, 2016, 06:34:25 PM
GURPS is a bit like The Fantasy Trip after years and years of a rich diet.

Even so, the core combat system is:
Move= (Dexterity + Health)/4 - Encumbrance
Initiative in order of Move ties broken by the unmodified and unrounded Move

To Hit Roll = 3d6 equal to or less than appropriate weapon skill (or Dexterity for unskilled punches)
Target may either:
Parry = Weapon Skill / 2 + 3 Shield Bonus (+1 if they retreat a hex)
Block = Shield Skill / 2 + 3 + Shield Bonus (+1 if they retreat a hex)
Dodge = Move - Encumbrance + 3

All out Attack Option (up to half move, no defense roll, either +4 to hit, +2 damage, or 2 attacks)
All out Defense move (make no attack but, make two defenses against each attack but no more than one of each type)
Dodge = Movement Rate +3 + Shield Bonus (+3 if they retreat a hex)

Damage = Swing or Thrust damage as appropriate to weapon (a 10 ST fighter with a broad sword does 1d6+1 Cutting or 1d6 Impaling)
Armor is subtracted from Damage total (some weapons have an armor divisor to represent penetration, light sabres divide armor by 10)
Remaining Damage is multiplied by 1.5 for cutting weapons and 2 for impaling weapons)

Shock and pain cause a -1 to hit for every 2 points of damage on the target's next turn.
Damage from a single blow greater than half Hit Points (which equal Strength, in 4e) stun the target, -4 to defenses, roll Health to recover on next turn or take no action.
Total Damage greater than Hit Points requires a Health roll to remain conscious each turn.
Total Damage greater than twice Hit Points requires a Health roll to remain alive each turn.

That's not so bad right?  The devil's in the details of course.  Hit locations and armor by locations get more complex as do advanced options like martial arts maneuvers and of course grappling :D  There's an entire technical grappling source book for those who want it.  This is GURPS we're talking about after all!

Oh wait!  No it's not!  I can move or delete the summary if you like. ;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 10, 2016, 08:54:48 PM
Chirine,

Out of curiosity, would you happen to know what the ancient N'luss/Dragon Warriors name for  Vimuhla is?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 11, 2016, 06:08:04 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;907659
Thank you. :)

Shemek.


You're welcome! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 11, 2016, 06:12:49 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;907664
Chirine,
I was recently looking at the Tekumel map, and I noticed that there are cities/towns indicated on the islands of Hlyssa and Ssru Gatl. It is my understanding that these lands are ruled by the Hlyss, but were they once controlled by man? Are these towns/cities abandoned human ruins or do the Hlyss live there?
The word Hlyss. Is this the Tsolyani name for these creatures? Do you know what the Livyani, or Salarvyani call them?

Shemek.


They're Hlyss cities. Been through there via tubeway car, don't want to go back, thank you. Odd architecture - a lot of extruded chitin, and just chock full of neuter workers who are more then happy to call in hordes of insectoid warriors and sorcerer. A lot like Heinlein's "Starship Troopers"; I found myself wishing that the Silver Suits would show up and make themselves useful, just for once.

It's the generic human name for them. Phil didn't do dictionaries for either Livyani or Salarvyani, and it didn't come up in games.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 11, 2016, 06:13:37 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;907682
...I think the conversational thread has gotten scrambled, I thought I was replying to someone else, old bean.  I was referring to highly detailed moment-by-moment rules sets like GURPS.

Once upon a time, I must admit, I was striving for such a thing, but nowadays OD&D with its one minute combat round and "after a full minute of swording* away furiously have you done anything useful to the other bugger" die roll model appeals to me.


*in the word "swording", the "w" is not silent


Oh, right; understood.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 11, 2016, 06:15:29 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;907697
Chirine,

Out of curiosity, would you happen to know what the ancient N'luss/Dragon Warriors name for  Vimuhla is?

Shemek
No; Phil did the script - it's one of his most elegant - but no dictionary. You might try the Blue Room; he might have mentioned it there. It didn't come up in our games.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on July 11, 2016, 07:05:42 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;907697
Chirine,

Out of curiosity, would you happen to know what the ancient N'luss/Dragon Warriors name for  Vimuhla is?

Shemek


Lord Shemek, I came across this just today in TETV number 5, pg 6, "As decendents of the legendary Dragon Warriors of old, the chief god of the Nluss is, of course, Vimuhla, whom they call Metlish Va'am, while his cohort Chiteng is know as Chatahk."

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 11, 2016, 07:31:47 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;907815
Lord Shemek, I came across this just today in TETV number 5, pg 6, "As decendents of the legendary Dragon Warriors of old, the chief god of the Nluss is, of course, Vimuhla, whom they call Metlish Va'am, while his cohort Chiteng is know as Chatahk."

H:0)


Mighty Hrugga, thank you for your help. :D I'll do a thorough search of the Blue Room as well and see what I can find. Metlish Va'am sounds familiar...

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 11, 2016, 07:35:47 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;907809
No; Phil did the script - it's one of his most elegant - but no dictionary. You might try the Blue Room; he might have mentioned it there. It didn't come up in our games.

Will do. As I said to Hrugga Metlish Va'am sounds familiar. I'm sure I've seen it somewhere before, and I seem to recall Phil giving Vimuhla's name in Nluss.
I'd love to see that script.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 11, 2016, 07:40:08 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;907807
They're Hlyss cities. Been through there via tubeway car, don't want to go back, thank you. Odd architecture - a lot of extruded chitin, and just chock full of neuter workers who are more then happy to call in hordes of insectoid warriors and sorcerer. A lot like Heinlein's "Starship Troopers"; I found myself wishing that the Silver Suits would show up and make themselves useful, just for once.

It's the generic human name for them. Phil didn't do dictionaries for either Livyani or Salarvyani, and it didn't come up in games.


Cool! Thanks for the insight. I figured that the names might be generic like Ssuganar or Ssuyal.
BTW, could you let us know a little bit more about your adventures in the Hluss lands?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 11, 2016, 07:41:33 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;907806
You're welcome! :)


How was your first day on the new job?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 12, 2016, 01:33:43 PM
When exploring the really ancient underworld, were/are there mostly human outposts or were there mostly non-humans and undead?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 12, 2016, 06:45:46 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;907815
Lord Shemek, I came across this just today in TETV number 5, pg 6, "As decendents of the legendary Dragon Warriors of old, the chief god of the Nluss is, of course, Vimuhla, whom they call Metlish Va'am, while his cohort Chiteng is know as Chatahk."

H:0)


And there you go! I really have to sit down and read my copy - it arrived, and I was so busy getting the new job I just put it on the shelf.

This also highlights the usefulness of 'secondary sources'. James and Jeff Dee are good examples of people who do look stuff up in the on-line sources, and then developing the fragments that Phil left us into very useful texts.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 12, 2016, 06:52:09 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;907821
Will do. As I said to Hrugga Metlish Va'am sounds familiar. I'm sure I've seen it somewhere before, and I seem to recall Phil giving Vimuhla's name in Nluss.
I'd love to see that script.

Shemek.


It's probably in the Blue Room; I remember a thread on the Nlyss, going on, at one point.

Phil liked to do his scripts in a specific bit map for use with his Macs; we have the original files he did, and we're working on a converter to use to display them. I can get the files to open and display on our older Macs. We kept all of our fleet from over the years, so a lot of the older and very obsolete programs are still accessible to us; it's getting them out of their original formats and into something modern that's the issue. (NASA has the same problems, I've been told.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 12, 2016, 07:08:34 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;907822
Cool! Thanks for the insight. I figured that the names might be generic like Ssuganar or Ssuyal.
BTW, could you let us know a little bit more about your adventures in the Hluss lands?

Shemek.


We got through there twice, once in the very early days on one of those marathon tubeway car trips that we sort of fell into. We'd be trying to get to some destination, and one of the group would be absolutely, positively, sure that they knew how to program the car to take us someplace.

Of course, they didn't, and we'd get to visit all the 'PC tourist traps' like the Lost City of Bayarsha or the City of the Red Tiled Roofs (which looks just like Berkeley from the air; I have my suspicions.) Given how often we'd see these places, I am pretty sure that Phil had a mental list in his head where he'd have us roll d100 and he'd mentally pick where we were were going. He was very consistent about it too, so one of the things I've been looking for is a written list; we have a copy of his personal playtest copy of EPT - one of the green cover versions - and I'm pretty sure it's in the back of that.

(One of the downsides of all the turmoil of the past several years has been the lack of time I've had to go back into the files and do all these research projects I've been wanting to do for decades. Hopefully, with the new job, I'll have the time to do it.)

There's going to be more on this in the book, as you might expect, but the gist of it was that we'd show up at the station near the place, get out, and discover that the locals were pretty nasty. We'd make a run for the station, hoping that the car was still there, and Get Out Of Dodge In A Hurry. They do keep the stations guarded, so we didn't get very far into the local area before getting jumped. We mostly got to see the Hlyss cities at a distance, just long enough to be able to admire the alien architecture - very 1930s and 1949s pulp, it was, just like the Hlyss themselves - and then we'd get hit by the local version of the welcoming committee.

Keep in mind that Phil liked to roll everybody up as if he was rolling human NPCs, and that he played them as being just as smart and just as fast as we were. (In the case of some of the party, it wasn't a stretch. Phil really was smarter and faster, most of the time, then a lot of us were - myself included.) As a result, we had to be very careful.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 12, 2016, 07:12:14 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;907823
How was your first day on the new job?

Shemek


 I thought that it has been very good. I'm still getting used to being out and about in daylight, but being around people again has been quite nice - I've been pretty isolated for the past eight years due to my work schedule.

I do a lot of work-flow management, which I am pretty good at, and a lot of mechanical work with large, noisy, and very dangerous machines. I enjoy that as well, but I am being very careful!

Lots less stress, my blood pressure is going down, and I'm enjoying being awake when other people are. It's all quite nice, actually.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 12, 2016, 07:23:07 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;907888
When exploring the really ancient underworld, were/are there mostly human outposts or were there mostly non-humans and undead?
=

Well, the upper levels are like Grand Central Station a lot of the time, with humans from the various temples, player-characters and other adventurers, and non-human 'PCs and adventurers' all over the place; undead are the particular specialty of the Temples of Ksarul and Sarku (and their cohorts, of course) so they tend to be localized to these areas at this level. Go lower down, and you get a lot less traffic; fanatic devotees and adventurers, and undead and various creatures serving more-or-less as 'minefields' for the unwary. Lower yet, it's mostly undead (again, localized to points of interest to their temples0 and wandering horrible creatures; you do tend to get a lot more of the ancient mechanical traps this far down. Usually at the very bottom, you get the tubeway car stations - traps in and of themselves, as far as I'm concerned - and lots of the biological and technological guards / traps of the ancients.

Gonzo wizards, undying or otherwise, add spice to the mix with their intrusions and whims; they tend to leave odd stuff behind to ensnare their rivals - for all I know, they sit around at the College at the End of Time laughing at each other over this sort of merry prank - but when a party find them it's usually pretty bad news for us mortals.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 12, 2016, 08:50:59 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;907935
I thought that it has been very good. I'm still getting used to being out and about in daylight, but being around people again has been quite nice - I've been pretty isolated for the past eight years due to my work schedule.

I do a lot of work-flow management, which I am pretty good at, and a lot of mechanical work with large, noisy, and very dangerous machines. I enjoy that as well, but I am being very careful!

Lots less stress, my blood pressure is going down, and I'm enjoying being awake when other people are. It's all quite nice, actually.


Welcome back to the living. :p. I'm glad you're enjoying the new gig. You couldn't pay me enough at this stage of my life for me to work the off shifts on a regular/fixed shift. No thank you. Been there done that for too long.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 12, 2016, 08:54:21 PM
Chirine,

Just wondering if you could tell us anything about the servants of the One Who Is. You know, the white reptiles, four arms, four legs, red eyes, use blow guns...;)

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 13, 2016, 12:06:01 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;907935
I thought that it has been very good. I'm still getting used to being out and about in daylight, but being around people again has been quite nice - I've been pretty isolated for the past eight years due to my work schedule.

I do a lot of work-flow management, which I am pretty good at, and a lot of mechanical work with large, noisy, and very dangerous machines. I enjoy that as well, but I am being very careful!

Lots less stress, my blood pressure is going down, and I'm enjoying being awake when other people are. It's all quite nice, actually.

Delighted to hear it.  Swing shift is a bitch, isn't it?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 13, 2016, 11:25:29 PM
Just played the FFG Star Wars X-wing miniatures game again last night.  DAMN, that's a good game.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on July 13, 2016, 11:52:25 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;908137
Just played the FFG Star Wars X-wing miniatures game again last night.  DAMN, that's a good game.

Yeah with all the different games, Fleet, Fighter, Skirmish, and RPG, it would be cool for a FLGS to put together one of those mega-crossover events like they used to do with 40k's Battlefleet Gothic, Epic, Apocalypse and 40k.  You could do the whole Battle of Endor (or whatever).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 14, 2016, 06:47:53 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;907943
Welcome back to the living. :p. I'm glad you're enjoying the new gig. You couldn't pay me enough at this stage of my life for me to work the off shifts on a regular/fixed shift. No thank you. Been there done that for too long.

Shemek.


Agreed; what's been literally driving me crazy has been all of the reorganization, downsizing, and outsourcing that's been going on as attempts are made to figure out what is we were supposed to be doing. I am very, very glad to be out of all that chaos. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 14, 2016, 06:49:03 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;907944
Chirine,

Just wondering if you could tell us anything about the servants of the One Who Is. You know, the white reptiles, four arms, four legs, red eyes, use blow guns...;)

Shemek


Yes, but it'll be later to day after I get home - off to work in a few minutes...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 14, 2016, 06:50:59 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;907966
Delighted to hear it.  Swing shift is a bitch, isn't it?


It is, and it got really old when nobody could figure out what I was supposed to have as a mission. One bit of fun with the new job - all of the student workers are gamers, and think that having me about the place is really cool. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 14, 2016, 09:49:46 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;907944
Chirine,

Just wondering if you could tell us anything about the servants of the One Who Is. You know, the white reptiles, four arms, four legs, red eyes, use blow guns...;)

Shemek


Ah! Did you see the very nice artwork Jim Garrison did from my old sketch? I think it's still there, on one one of his blogs...

Anyway, this was back about '77, maybe early '78; Kadarsha - still Ahim Basrim, at that point, had been made fief-holder of the two-hex fief of Tu'umnra; the problem, from the Imperium's point of view, was trying to convince him to get out there and stay there to govern the place and remit the tax money. Instead, he and the rest of the group had really messed up the place - causing all sorts of very nasty problems for the Impiruim, the Temple of Vimuhla, and numerous others. The party had been spending the better part of the last year or two in the campaign looting the Jakalla underworld and anything else they could get their hands on to pay for raising legions for the Imperium, which they would presumably command.

The Imperium finally ran out of patience, and sent word that it would be A Very Good Thing if Kadarsha got his butt out to his fief, and did a little 'governing' / domain game stuff. The pretext was that one of the little border forts on the edge of the Chakan forests had stopped replying to messages, and so the party was sent out there with a small escort to see what was going on. Rebel / 'wild' Pe Choi were what was going on; the fort had been taken, burned, and the guards all killed. So, in best PC fashion, they stormed the place in the usual frontal assault, and managed to kill all the Pe Choi. It was a nasty little fight, and of course the Pe Choi had summoned help fro their relatives. (Phil had just gotten and painted up his brand new Pe Choi from Ral Partha, and he was itching for a fight.) So, it's now our turn to get besieged / trapped in the place by all the Pe Choi in the world.

We're on the losing end of another nasty little fight, when somebody suggests looking for the secret postern gate / tunnel/ passage that should be there. It isn't, and we're looking to be well and truly trapped when I bethought myself of Phil's penchant for Chateau Gaillard. The place had been taken by a party sneaking up the latrine; so, since I had made the suggestion, I got lowered down the latrine shaft to see what was down there. (Pe Choi poop, mostly.) Sure enough, that was where the secret passage was - and Phil used this again, in "Flamesong", as he thought it was really a good laugh to have the PCs covered in poop - so out into the tunnel we went.

The tunnel led to a series of caverns which had their own connecting tunnels, and all too soon the blowgun darts came out of the darkness and people started going down. We finally got a look at these big lizards / saurians; four legs, four arms, and looking like something from Barsoom (Not that I would have put that past Phil; he did like his in-jokes, he did.) The medallions with the circle-and-dot of The One Who Is got our attention instantly, and we finally managed to fight out way to dead-end cavern where Eyloa did his Nexus point thing and we got out of there.

Aside from that running fight, we never saw them again. Kadarsha got replaced as fief-holder, and we never had a reason to go back. I filed a report, and that's the last we heard about it - it led to our adventure where we stormed the palace of Bassa, King of the Black Ssu, and thence to the revealing of Mirusiya - so it kinda got lost in the rush.

I assume that they're still down there, living their happy underground lives, and occasionally venturing out at night to terrorize the peasants and grab whatever they can. Sounds like a job for a party of stalwart adventurers to go an investigate, to me...

What else? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on July 14, 2016, 10:04:36 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;908320
Ah! Did you see the very nice artwork Jim Garrison did from my old sketch? I think it's still there, on one one of his blogs...

Anyway, this was back about '77, maybe early '78; Kadarsha - still Ahim Basrim, at that point, had been made fief-holder of the two-hex fief of Tu'umnra; the problem, from the Imperium's point of view, was trying to convince him to get out there and stay there to govern the place and remit the tax money. Instead, he and the rest of the group had really messed up the place - causing all sorts of very nasty problems for the Impiruim, the Temple of Vimuhla, and numerous others. The party had been spending the better part of the last year or two in the campaign looting the Jakalla underworld and anything else they could get their hands on to pay for raising legions for the Imperium, which they would presumably command.

The Imperium finally ran out of patience, and sent word that it would be A Very Good Thing if Kadarsha got his butt out to his fief, and did a little 'governing' / domain game stuff. The pretext was that one of the little border forts on the edge of the Chakan forests had stopped replying to messages, and so the party was sent out there with a small escort to see what was going on. Rebel / 'wild' Pe Choi were what was going on; the fort had been taken, burned, and the guards all killed. So, in best PC fashion, they stormed the place in the usual frontal assault, and managed to kill all the Pe Choi. It was a nasty little fight, and of course the Pe Choi had summoned help fro their relatives. (Phil had just gotten and painted up his brand new Pe Choi from Ral Partha, and he was itching for a fight.) So, it's now our turn to get besieged / trapped in the place by all the Pe Choi in the world.

We're on the losing end of another nasty little fight, when somebody suggests looking for the secret postern gate / tunnel/ passage that should be there. It isn't, and we're looking to be well and truly trapped when I bethought myself of Phil's penchant for Chateau Gaillard. The place had been taken by a party sneaking up the latrine; so, since I had made the suggestion, I got lowered down the latrine shaft to see what was down there. (Pe Choi poop, mostly.) Sure enough, that was where the secret passage was - and Phil used this again, in "Flamesong", as he thought it was really a good laugh to have the PCs covered in poop - so out into the tunnel we went.

The tunnel led to a series of caverns which had their own connecting tunnels, and all too soon the blowgun darts came out of the darkness and people started going down. We finally got a look at these big lizards / saurians; four legs, four arms, and looking like something from Barsoom (Not that I would have put that past Phil; he did like his in-jokes, he did.) The medallions with the circle-and-dot of The One Who Is got our attention instantly, and we finally managed to fight out way to dead-end cavern where Eyloa did his Nexus point thing and we got out of there.

Aside from that running fight, we never saw them again. Kadarsha got replaced as fief-holder, and we never had a reason to go back. I filed a report, and that's the last we heard about it - it led to our adventure where we stormed the palace of Bassa, King of the Black Ssu, and thence to the revealing of Mirusiya - so it kinda got lost in the rush.

I assume that they're still down there, living their happy underground lives, and occasionally venturing out at night to terrorize the peasants and grab whatever they can. Sounds like a job for a party of stalwart adventurers to go an investigate, to me...

What else? :)


Sorry...What is their proper name again...?

Thanks,

H:0)

PS Where they ever stated for EPT...?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 15, 2016, 06:03:19 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;908320
1.Ah! Did you see the very nice artwork Jim Garrison did from my old sketch? I think it's still there, on one one of his blogs...

2.Anyway, this was back about '77, maybe early '78; Kadarsha - still Ahim Basrim, .... (snip)
3.I assume that they're still down there, living their happy underground lives, and occasionally venturing out at night to terrorize the peasants and grab whatever they can. Sounds like a job for a party of stalwart adventurers to go an investigate, to me...

4.What else? :)

1. I did so! Very nice sketch indeed. I love his blog, too bad he stopped it a few years ago. From what I gather from his posts he'd had enough of the the Foundation (those other Pariah entities) and walked away. If you or any one else is interested here is a link to his blog:
http://theshenblog.blogspot.ca/2010/07/canonical-tekumel.html (http://theshenblog.blogspot.ca/2010/07/canonical-tekumel.html)
Hopefully he's lurking on this thread and will join in.
BTW, who did he play in Phil's game? I can't remember if you mentioned it before.
2. Will you be going into detail about the visit to king Bassa's castle in TSTPT? If not, could you share with us here what happened?
3. I agree. This would worth investigating indeed. I'm sure your report is gathering dust somewhere, and would provide much needed background...
4. Anything you want to share:D


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 15, 2016, 06:23:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;908171
It is, and it got really old when nobody could figure out what I was supposed to have as a mission. One bit of fun with the new job - all of the student workers are gamers, and think that having me about the place is really cool. :)


Nice! We got a new hire this week that's working on my crew. He's 19, and plays D&D 5.0 something. When I told him that I also play D&D, but never got past AD&D his response was: "AD&D? Oh ya I think my dad played that way back when." (Which of course he did with yours truly as the DM. It really is a small world after all. He didn't know that I knew his old man when I was a teenager, and still run into him once in a blue moon.:p)
He's enjoying the stories from back in the day that Uncle Shemek is telling him. "What's Tekumel?" he asked to the sound of laughter as my best friend, also on the same crew and an original player in my campaign, said to him:  "Well kid, it's like this...".  :eek:

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 17, 2016, 02:28:03 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;908322
Sorry...What is their proper name again...?

Thanks,

H:0)

PS Where they ever stated for EPT...?

They never had a proper name; we didn't hang around long enough to find out if they had one, and they didn't seem to want to engage in idle chit-chat with us. They were simply out to kill us, from what we could tell; they don't like casual drop-in guests, I suppose...

Not that I am aware of; there were no notes about them in Phil's files, and I'm guessing that he didn't have any to hand at the time. If we had needed them, I think he'd have statted them as for Shen, but with attacks per round as per what he did for Pe Choi - his rule was take the number of 'hands', divide by two, and that's the number of attacks per round the attacker gets. I'd suggest going the higher end of the scale, as these are about half again as big as Shen.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 17, 2016, 02:46:31 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;908427
1. I did so! Very nice sketch indeed. I love his blog, too bad he stopped it a few years ago. From what I gather from his posts he'd had enough of the the Foundation (those other Pariah entities) and walked away. If you or any one else is interested here is a link to his blog:
http://theshenblog.blogspot.ca/2010/07/canonical-tekumel.html (http://theshenblog.blogspot.ca/2010/07/canonical-tekumel.html)
Hopefully he's lurking on this thread and will join in.
BTW, who did he play in Phil's game? I can't remember if you mentioned it before.
2. Will you be going into detail about the visit to king Bassa's castle in TSTPT? If not, could you share with us here what happened?
3. I agree. This would worth investigating indeed. I'm sure your report is gathering dust somewhere, and would provide much needed background...
4. Anything you want to share:D

Shemek

1. Yes, Jim was a player out at Phil's with us from about 1985-6 to about 1991-2. He was purged, along with all of the other people who were my friends. He finally gave up on Tekumel after he failed to get any sort of satisfaction over the use of some of his copyrighted artwork without his permission in some of the publications that they did ("Mitlanyal" and "Gardasiyal", if I recall correctly). I very strongly doubt her's looking at this forum; he's a professional writer and artist, and I expect he's moved on to other things.

2. Yes; the attack on Bassa's palace will be a big part of Book One. It was a pretty big adventure, involving Thomar, one of the Keys that imprison Lord Ksarul, the Black Ssu - Phil had just gotten his new figures from Ral Partha, so he painted them up just for us - and the revealing of Prince Mirusiya. We did this fight in miniature, so I have a lot of notes and plans.

As an aside, Book One is proving to be the hardest one to write. My first couple of years out at Phil's saw the group doing a lot of almost random 'dungeon' crawls, and it wasn't until this adventure that Phil's campaign really gelled; so, I'm trying to set our adventures in the context of his world, and it's a tough slog...

3. I'm sure it's on file in Bey Su and Avanthar, in a folder someplace on the shelves.

4. Understood. I do seem to work better in a Q & A format, for some reason. :)

Had a wonderful "Close Action" game yesterday at the quarterly meeting of the Minnesota Miniature Gaming Society. A pair of Spanish 70s vs. three Portuguese 54s off Uruguay - I thought of you, Pundit! :) - in 1777; great game, very hard-fought and well-played by a bunch of the old CSA veterans - only one of who was actalluy pretty familiar with the rules. It was like I'd stepped back in time to Coffman Union some thirty years ago - same sportsmanship, same sense of fun, and same level of sheer brilliance.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 17, 2016, 02:48:07 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;908431
Nice! We got a new hire this week that's working on my crew. He's 19, and plays D&D 5.0 something. When I told him that I also play D&D, but never got past AD&D his response was: "AD&D? Oh ya I think my dad played that way back when." (Which of course he did with yours truly as the DM. It really is a small world after all. He didn't know that I knew his old man when I was a teenager, and still run into him once in a blue moon.:p)
He's enjoying the stories from back in the day that Uncle Shemek is telling him. "What's Tekumel?" he asked to the sound of laughter as my best friend, also on the same crew and an original player in my campaign, said to him:  "Well kid, it's like this...".  :eek:

Shemek


And there you go. This is the future for Tekumel, if only there was the wit to see it...

Sigh.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 17, 2016, 05:48:00 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;908657
Had a wonderful "Close Action" game yesterday at the quarterly meeting of the Minnesota Miniature Gaming Society. A pair of Spanish 70s vs. three Portuguese 54s off Uruguay - I thought of you, Pundit! :) - in 1777; great game, very hard-fought and well-played by a bunch of the old CSA veterans - only one of who was actalluy pretty familiar with the rules. It was like I'd stepped back in time to Coffman Union some thirty years ago - same sportsmanship, same sense of fun, and same level of sheer brilliance.

Lovely when you find a game where tactics are more important than learning the rules!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 17, 2016, 07:41:37 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;908657
1. Yes, Jim was a player out at Phil's with us from about 1985-6 to about 1991-2. He was purged, along with all of the other people who were my friends. He finally gave up on Tekumel after he failed to get any sort of satisfaction over the use of some of his copyrighted artwork without his permission in some of the publications that they did ("Mitlanyal" and "Gardasiyal", if I recall correctly). I very strongly doubt her's looking at this forum; he's a professional writer and artist, and I expect he's moved on to other things.

2. Yes; the attack on Bassa's palace will be a big part of Book One. It was a pretty big adventure, involving Thomar, one of the Keys that imprison Lord Ksarul, the Black Ssu - Phil had just gotten his new figures from Ral Partha, so he painted them up just for us - and the revealing of Prince Mirusiya. We did this fight in miniature, so I have a lot of notes and plans.

As an aside, Book One is proving to be the hardest one to write. My first couple of years out at Phil's saw the group doing a lot of almost random 'dungeon' crawls, and it wasn't until this adventure that Phil's campaign really gelled; so, I'm trying to set our adventures in the context of his world, and it's a tough slog...

3. I'm sure it's on file in Bey Su and Avanthar, in a folder someplace on the shelves.

4. Understood. I do seem to work better in a Q & A format, for some reason. :)

Had a wonderful "Close Action" game yesterday at the quarterly meeting of the Minnesota Miniature Gaming Society. A pair of Spanish 70s vs. three Portuguese 54s off Uruguay - I thought of you, Pundit! :) - in 1777; great game, very hard-fought and well-played by a bunch of the old CSA veterans - only one of who was actalluy pretty familiar with the rules. It was like I'd stepped back in time to Coffman Union some thirty years ago - same sportsmanship, same sense of fun, and same level of sheer brilliance.


1. Sigh! How many times have heard this story from you on this thread? What a damn waste is all I can say.

2. I really look forward to this. For some reason I have always been intrigued by the Ssu, and finding out what happened in Bassa's castle has really piqued my interest.

3. Lost in a bureau no doubt. ;)

4. Q & A it shall be then!


I'm not familiar with these rules but they sound fun. The only serious naval type game I played was Harpoon back in the day, and then only a couple of times. Didn't seem to be much interest in naval warfare up here back then, at least not in the circles I gamed in.
It's wonderful when you game against gentlemen (gentlepersons?). No hysterics, no "best armies money can buy", or cheating. It's been a long time since I've war gamed  under these types of conditions. :(


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 17, 2016, 09:39:20 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;908700

I'm not familiar with these rules but they sound fun. The only serious naval type game I played was Harpoon back in the day, and then only a couple of times. Didn't seem to be much interest in naval warfare up here back then, at least not in the circles I gamed in.
It's wonderful when you game against gentlemen (gentlepersons?). No hysterics, no "best armies money can buy", or cheating. It's been a long time since I've war gamed  under these types of conditions. :(


Shemek

Chirine and I both cut our teeth in (different) environments of "The referee designs the scenario."  Amazing how much that helps (though it won't cure all problems.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on July 18, 2016, 05:27:42 AM
Hello all.

I've been reading this most excellent thread for a while and am now coming out of the shadows to ask a question: Chirine, in your years of adventure, did you ever visit the Unstraightened City? I so, what do you remember?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 18, 2016, 08:30:01 AM
Welcome, Neshm hiKumala!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 18, 2016, 06:50:35 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;908691
Lovely when you find a game where tactics are more important than learning the rules!


The "Close Action!" rules are actually very easy to learn - as long as you think like a ship captain, it's all mostly about learning the 'programming language' that the rules use to sail and fight the ships. You have to think both tactically and as a resource manager - you have to keep one eye on your crew, one eye on the 'terrain', one eye on your fleet, and one eye on your opponents. It makes for a really fun and dynamic game!!!

I had an incredibly good time - one of the players was late, so I offered to give him my ship. As I was the Spanish flagship, he became the ship's captain and I became the squadron commodore. In theory, I had nothing to do for the entire rest of the game; in reality, I had to command my squadron - reading wind and tide working with my two ships' captains, and trying to divine the intentions of our opponents from their movements and actions.

I role-played, just like we used to do all those years ago, even though we were playing what is basically a board game done with miniatures. Three of the players were CSA vets - you can probably guess who - and the look on the three 'young' players as we sailed around shooting each other up and having a great time was well and truly priceless. They saw what we used to do, and they found it pretty durn cool.

Gods, it was fun. I twirled my mustachios, shouted defiance at our foes, and wrote up a decent report for Madrid as to why our pair of 70s were now matchwood.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 18, 2016, 06:56:18 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;908700
1. Sigh! How many times have heard this story from you on this thread? What a damn waste is all I can say.

2. I really look forward to this. For some reason I have always been intrigued by the Ssu, and finding out what happened in Bassa's castle has really piqued my interest.

3. Lost in a bureau no doubt. ;)

4. Q & A it shall be then!

I'm not familiar with these rules but they sound fun. The only serious naval type game I played was Harpoon back in the day, and then only a couple of times. Didn't seem to be much interest in naval warfare up here back then, at least not in the circles I gamed in.
It's wonderful when you game against gentlemen (gentlepersons?). No hysterics, no "best armies money can buy", or cheating. It's been a long time since I've war gamed  under these types of conditions. :(

Shemek


1. Yep. Breaks my heart, as well. Phil's creation deserves to be more widely known.

2. It had some interesting moments. Thomar needed some muscle to go rob the place, and he had us. (Oh, hurray. :rolleyes:)

3. Probably on a shelf, actually, or in a chest in a back room. The Tsolyani don't have file cabinets as such, for which I am truly grateful...

4. Thanks! I just seem to work better, that way. No idea why.

It was a truly wonderful game, and took me back thirty-some years to those nights at the CSA meetings. A paper time machine, if you will...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 18, 2016, 06:58:56 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;908704
Chirine and I both cut our teeth in (different) environments of "The referee designs the scenario."  Amazing how much that helps (though it won't cure all problems.)

It does, I think. Some GMs can make the most exciting world-setting dull and boring, and some can do the opposite with a mediocre setting. In this case, the GM poses us a pretty tactical problem, which was not going to end well for either side. And - LO! - it didn't. It was basically the Graf Spee Problem and in the same waters, too...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 18, 2016, 07:15:00 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;908750
Hello all.

I've been reading this most excellent thread for a while and am now coming out of the shadows to ask a question: Chirine, in your years of adventure, did you ever visit the Unstraightened City? I so, what do you remember?

Welcome aboard! Ask away - it's what I'm here for.

Yes, we did, and there's a lot of stuff on the place in one of the books. The short form is that somebody, back in the depths of history, developed a very strong dislike for a faction of the Undying Wizards called the Blasphemous Accelerators - who denied the hegemony of the Gods and wanted to bring Tekumel back into the technological world - and used one of the mighty weapons of the Ancients on the place. There was a lot of debate over whether it was a simple planet-buster or something else; one theory holds that the terraforming engines kicked in to save the planet, another holds that the Egg of the World was used on the city, and a more recent theory is that a variant of the inter-dimensional Three Light drive was used - basically, activate the star drive while still on the ground. (I favor this latter theory, myself, based on Certain Developments that happened later on in the campaign.)

The net result was the Plains of Glass, with the Crater of the Unstraightened City in the middle. We got to it by Nexus point - Eyloa, again - and left the same way after having a heck of a time getting one to open. It's kind of easy to get in, but getting out usually leads you to a random destination - which was more fun for Phil, of course. The place is just plain weird for anybody; nothing seems 'on-kilter', and you always have the feeling that Something is watching you. When Phil started using the words "non-Euclidian geometry" to describe the buildings, I got it but nobody else did. It's the one place on Tekumel where Phil had us make 'sanity' checks, like he did when humans tried to use the Mihalli Spheres of Immediate Eventuation. (That also ended badly.) Think of it as Teotihuacan meets Lovecraft, and you have it.

There is 'stuff' in the buildings, most of it completely unfamiliar. Worth a bit on the collectors' market, though. I'd be very careful, though; it's a place where you turn around and Charlie's simply vanished into thin air - the 'skin' of reality us very, very, thin in the city...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 18, 2016, 07:49:08 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;908820
Welcome aboard! Ask away - it's what I'm here for.

Yes, we did, and there's a lot of stuff on the place in one of the books. The short form is that somebody, back in the depths of history, developed a very strong dislike for a faction of the Undying Wizards called the Blasphemous Accelerators - who denied the hegemony of the Gods and wanted to bring Tekumel back into the technological world - and used one of the mighty weapons of the Ancients on the place. There was a lot of debate over whether it was a simple planet-buster or something else; one theory holds that the terraforming engines kicked in to save the planet, another holds that the Egg of the World was used on the city, and a more recent theory is that a variant of the inter-dimensional Three Light drive was used - basically, activate the star drive while still on the ground. (I favor this latter theory, myself, based on Certain Developments that happened later on in the campaign.)

The net result was the Plains of Glass, with the Crater of the Unstraightened City in the middle. We got to it by Nexus point - Eyloa, again - and left the same way after having a heck of a time getting one to open. It's kind of easy to get in, but getting out usually leads you to a random destination - which was more fun for Phil, of course. The place is just plain weird for anybody; nothing seems 'on-kilter', and you always have the feeling that Something is watching you. When Phil started using the words "non-Euclidian geometry" to describe the buildings, I got it but nobody else did. It's the one place on Tekumel where Phil had us make 'sanity' checks, like he did when humans tried to use the Mihalli Spheres of Immediate Eventuation. (That also ended badly.) Think of it as Teotihuacan meets Lovecraft, and you have it.

There is 'stuff' in the buildings, most of it completely unfamiliar. Worth a bit on the collectors' market, though. I'd be very careful, though; it's a place where you turn around and Charlie's simply vanished into thin air - the 'skin' of reality us very, very, thin in the city...


I have always described Ssuganar using the term non-Euclidian geometry. I know that the hazards one encounters are far more physical than outer-planar, but I always have my idea of  R'leyh in my mind's eye, when describing what's there. :eek:
Speaking of Plains, did you ever make it to the Plain of Towers?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 18, 2016, 07:52:04 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;908750
Hello all.

I've been reading this most excellent thread for a while and am now coming out of the shadows to ask a question: Chirine, in your years of adventure, did you ever visit the Unstraightened City? I so, what do you remember?


Welcome my friend
to the show that never ends
Step inside, step inside.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 19, 2016, 09:21:42 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;908822
I have always described Ssuganar using the term non-Euclidian geometry. I know that the hazards one encounters are far more physical than outer-planar, but I always have my idea of  R'leyh in my mind's eye, when describing what's there. :eek:
Speaking of Plains, did you ever make it to the Plain of Towers?

Shemek

Yes, we did. Gaschine, out on the northwest edge of Mu'ugalvya, makes Fort Zindeneuf look like paradise. The Plain is pretty odd; you have the occasional actual starship or intra-system ship sitting around, surrounded by the fake spaceships that some forgotten cargo cult built up out of baked bricks and stones. Timbers, too, which told us that they'd been built before this part of the continent had dried out. Most of the fake ships are simply solid 'towers' but some have interiors that can be explored. The very best preserved are actually kind of sad to explore, as they have interiors where the fittings of the ancient's ships have been faithfully duplicated - but in mud-brick or stone. Actual windows where the view-screens or possibly portholes would be. Phil's explanation was that the locals had built the fakes / replicas in the hope of bringing more god-ships back from the skies...

Local fauna as lots of teeth, and tends to the large and hungry. (Like, what else is new on Tekumel, eh?)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 19, 2016, 09:22:25 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;908823
Welcome my friend
to the show that never ends
Step inside, step inside.

Shemek

What he said. I'll be here as long as you have questions...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on July 20, 2016, 02:10:48 AM
Thank you all for the welcome.
It is a great thread!

RE: the Unstraightened City
Thanks for the details. What you describe is sort what I imagined after reading about it on the Tekumel website. Using a Nexus point might indeed be the best way of getting in. Trying it on foot ... well, unless the PCs are accompanied by a powerful sorcerer or using some clever techno-magical apparatus, I don't see how that could be possible. Madness would take its toll well before the city proper.

RE: the Plain of Towers
Love it. What else can I say. It's perfect. Cargo cult type stuff ... but stuck on the flats of the desert. One can imagine the despair of the people who came up with the idea of constructing those mud-brick replicas long ago.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 20, 2016, 09:12:03 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;909022
Yes, we did. Gaschine, out on the northwest edge of Mu'ugalvya, makes Fort Zindeneuf look like paradise. The Plain is pretty odd; you have the occasional actual starship or intra-system ship sitting around, surrounded by the fake spaceships that some forgotten cargo cult built up out of baked bricks and stones. Timbers, too, which told us that they'd been built before this part of the continent had dried out. Most of the fake ships are simply solid 'towers' but some have interiors that can be explored. The very best preserved are actually kind of sad to explore, as they have interiors where the fittings of the ancient's ships have been faithfully duplicated - but in mud-brick or stone. Actual windows where the view-screens or possibly portholes would be. Phil's explanation was that the locals had built the fakes / replicas in the hope of bringing more god-ships back from the skies...

Local fauna as lots of teeth, and tends to the large and hungry. (Like, what else is new on Tekumel, eh?)

That's interesting. Gaschine sounds like one of those towns from a Sergio Leonne (sp?) Spaghetti Western: hot, dusty, decrepit, with lots of flies buzzing around, a bunch of people with nothing to do, and a gang of local toughs ready to kill you at a moment's notice.. I seem to remember Phil talking about this region over on the Blue Room. I'll look for it after work. One thing  I recall is that it's dangerous as heck, like you said.
This is the type of setting my guys have always hated because they know that underneath the "malaise" there is something that wishes to do them harm. I've never been to the Plain of Towers, I might have to send the party in that direction and see if they make it there.


Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 20, 2016, 09:35:36 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;909051
Thank you all for the welcome.
It is a great thread!

RE: the Unstraightened City
Thanks for the details. What you describe is sort what I imagined after reading about it on the Tekumel website. Using a Nexus point might indeed be the best way of getting in. Trying it on foot ... well, unless the PCs are accompanied by a powerful sorcerer or using some clever techno-magical apparatus, I don't see how that could be possible. Madness would take its toll well before the city proper.

RE: the Plain of Towers
Love it. What else can I say. It's perfect. Cargo cult type stuff ... but stuck on the flats of the desert. One can imagine the despair of the people who came up with the idea of constructing those mud-brick replicas long ago.

Great points. Just getting to these spots would be an epic undertaking, let alone what you would find once you actually got there.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 20, 2016, 06:53:14 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;909022
Yes, we did. Gaschine, out on the northwest edge of Mu'ugalvya, makes Fort Zindeneuf look like paradise. The Plain is pretty odd; you have the occasional actual starship or intra-system ship sitting around, surrounded by the fake spaceships that some forgotten cargo cult built up out of baked bricks and stones. Timbers, too, which told us that they'd been built before this part of the continent had dried out. Most of the fake ships are simply solid 'towers' but some have interiors that can be explored. The very best preserved are actually kind of sad to explore, as they have interiors where the fittings of the ancient's ships have been faithfully duplicated - but in mud-brick or stone. Actual windows where the view-screens or possibly portholes would be. Phil's explanation was that the locals had built the fakes / replicas in the hope of bringing more god-ships back from the skies...

Local fauna as lots of teeth, and tends to the large and hungry. (Like, what else is new on Tekumel, eh?)


Chirine,

Here is the post I was thinking about earlier. It's not from Phil, but from someone called David Bailey, who I think played in Phil's game at some point. I think that it's a good description of what one can expect there.

"Ah, the Plain of Towers, I remember it as a place of shifting sands and
howling winds. 'Look on my works ye mighty and despair', and all is
shadows and sudden, looming shapes.

There are strange shaman wandering in the rocky hollows and the call of sad
beasts chills the night. many of our party simply ran in fear, and a few
were spirited away in the darkness.

My warrior companion was killed when he tried to prize open the metal door
at the foot of a baked clay tower. Alas for him the baked clay was the
dust of millennia dried onto the skin of a metal spire, and the rock of
many ages fell on him.

Inside the towers there were whispering ghosts and strange visions of no
substance. In two places we found the remains of strange inhumans, one a
desiccated hokun. In other places we found a gateway to the red moon, and
in yet another we found a strange rod that devoured the souls and minds of
sorcerers.

We left, having failed to find what we sought, and in fear of our lives,
for, on the last night we heard a rushing of air from a pit in the ground,
and a party of black Ssu had come out on us by surprise.

Go not to the plain of towers my noble friends, for all is decay and
despair."

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 20, 2016, 07:02:34 PM
Some more questions. I came across this post from Phil, and was wondering if you could shed some more light on the subject? Both of these locations sound like they would be "fun" to explore.

"Stick to the coasts for cargo and passenger travel, and hire a good pilot
for open-water voyages. Very few navigators would ever try to sail out
to the Isle of Eyes or the lost little city of Mardza on the Isles of
Ill Wind!
"

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on July 20, 2016, 09:47:49 PM
Uncle,

It has been awhile. I hope you are well. A few questions...

I know that vampirism on Tekumel does not exist as it does here. Is there lycanthropy on Tekumel(or any types of were-creatures) that you may have encountered?

What do clan mothers tell their children to be careful of besides Ssu, Hluss, or the other inimicals, when they want them to behave?

Is there any common folklore or legends(besides those of the Twenty or the epic heroes of old) common on the planet?

Thank you,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on July 20, 2016, 09:54:51 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;909171
Chirine,

Here is the post I was thinking about earlier. It's not from Phil, but from someone called David Bailey, who I think played in Phil's game at some point. I think that it's a good description of what one can expect there.

"Ah, the Plain of Towers, I remember it as a place of shifting sands and
howling winds. 'Look on my works ye mighty and despair', and all is
shadows and sudden, looming shapes.

There are strange shaman wandering in the rocky hollows and the call of sad
beasts chills the night. many of our party simply ran in fear, and a few
were spirited away in the darkness.

My warrior companion was killed when he tried to prize open the metal door
at the foot of a baked clay tower. Alas for him the baked clay was the
dust of millennia dried onto the skin of a metal spire, and the rock of
many ages fell on him.

Inside the towers there were whispering ghosts and strange visions of no
substance. In two places we found the remains of strange inhumans, one a
desiccated hokun. In other places we found a gateway to the red moon, and
in yet another we found a strange rod that devoured the souls and minds of
sorcerers.

We left, having failed to find what we sought, and in fear of our lives,
for, on the last night we heard a rushing of air from a pit in the ground,
and a party of black Ssu had come out on us by surprise.

Go not to the plain of towers my noble friends, for all is decay and
despair."

Shemek


Ahhh!!! Great Lord, you always find things that make my mind race like the horse, on the plains of that faraway land that I am in search of... Most excellent!!! Thanks for sharing.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 21, 2016, 12:41:23 AM
And after an absence due to actually having a holiday (which turned out worse for my nerves than work), I'm back:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;906741
Consult some complex table to roll on what the infantry can do to pass the time, I'd suppose. More rules and tables, the better?

Roll a d6, please;).
1. Sleeping.
2. Drinking.
3. Sleeping.
4. Drinking.
5. Whoring.
6. Sleeping.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;907628
From AsenRG:
So am I, though mixed with some strategy... People are amazed, indeed.
Which I find rather odd, because for a while "Art of War' and the "Book of Five Rings" were the 'required reading' of American businessmen. These days? Nobody's heard of them.

Knowing how "required reading" stays on the shelves...
(And I'm not talking with American businessmen, as a rule).

Quote
Well, yes. I'm with Gronan, here' what ever happened to 'adventure'? Grey Mouser and his tall friend would never get any traction in gaming these days, I fear.

They would.
Dungeon Crawl Classics is making a Lankhmar series. And I think they might be statted as NPCs in Savage Worlds Lankhmar.
Besides, both of them are the types that just create their own traction...:D

Quote
Understood. From conversations I've had on-line, this is a pretty common sentiment amongst 'non-connected' gamers who are not of the One True Faith. These are the people I enjoy talking to, not the latter.

Regardless - you not knowing what the modern gamer wants is a funny claim to make.

Quote
That is indeed true in my observation.
You learn more with age. But by then you stop counting as a "modern gamer" - I feel I'm on the verge of that, and am actively exploiting it.

Um, true, I think. But them the more experience one has, the more one realizes that one needs to keep learning. I think.

I wish it was true...
Some people treat having experience as a carte blanche for not learning anything new ever again, alas.

Quote
Yes, very much so. I don't think it's particularly 'age-related' but much more by the 'generation' of gaming when they got into the hobby. I'm continually bemused by the High Priests Of The Great God Gygax, who will quote chapter and verse from the Sacred Scrolls at the drop of a hat. The Arnesonians are less like like that, mostly because there are fewer of them and more of them actually played with Dave. (Also, Dave left behind a lot fewer of The Sacred Scrolls, too.)

I feel safe in having decided to be Wes(e)lian - Major Wesley seems to have even less Sacred Scrolls, so I can't be judged by adhering to scriptures...:p

Quote
Phil did the same thing; we learned to pay attention, because when Phil bothered to unlimber the details they were usually pretty relevant to what we were doing or were about to do.

And today's "narrative games" have re-discovered this principle, it seems. It's all about more efficient communication between Referee and players.
Of course, I am also ready to provide meaningless details if the players ask for them. And if they can make those work for them...

Quote
And they should learn tactics as well no doubt about that;).
One of my online games right now almost had a PC killed because the enemy had the remote to the lamps in the cabin where they were fighting.

What? Really? Nobody in the party took a look at the place to get a feel for the way the cabin worked? In our day - we were just talking about this in relation to the 'Adventure of the Mummified Pot-roast', looking for stuff like this was the 'usual drill'.

To be fair to the guy - he never had the time, nor the equipment. It's a cruise ship near the shores of the USA in the near future, returning on a cruise from Mexico, and he had only several hours to prepare, and only managed to arrange a gun to be smuggled on board, not any other equipment.
Besides, he entered a cabin where a dangerous criminal was transporting a kidnapping victim and worse (he didn't know about the "worse" part). He expected a gun to be popped at him. Instead, she went for the remote (and her switchblade was in a pocket). He didn't shoot when she jumped to grab the thing, and she switched off the lamps. Much crawling around in the cabin ensued, while the kidnap victim was sobbing, imagining how she'd get shot by a stray bullet if the armed man starts shooting...thus providing sound cover for their actions.
She botched a perception roll, though, and jumped over to attack the place where he has just been. He thought the sound of metal might be a grenade - not entirely unreasonable given he knew he's going against the cartels - and jumped as far away as he could. Thus she found his direction, decided to charge him, and almost stabbed him in the chest. Had he rolled one lower, he'd have a switchblade in his lung.
Instead, he avoided the first stab, and she got double-tapped.
Then, while she was bleeding on the floor, she activated the remote again, blinding him (but she knew to close her eyes), and switched it off again...
It ended with him double-tapping her again, but she might have been lucky. A less-trained enemy would have been meat for the slaughter, I suspect.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;907662
As I have been telling my group of players for years: "This is the beauty of Tekumel. You can use any rule system, or no rules at all and still adventure in it."

It applies to all settings worth exploring...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;907682
...I think the conversational thread has gotten scrambled, I thought I was replying to someone else, old bean.  I was referring to highly detailed moment-by-moment rules sets like GURPS.

Once upon a time, I must admit, I was striving for such a thing, but nowadays OD&D with its one minute combat round and "after a full minute of swording* away furiously have you done anything useful to the other bugger" die roll model appeals to me.


*in the word "swording", the "w" is not silent

I think both models have their place. Though I'd think that one minute is rather excessive.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;907683
Oh, okay, thanks for the clarification.

Actually, I must admit that a very detailed combat system is a lot of fun for one-on-one gaming; I played Fantasy Trip that way for several years.

Curiously, Gronan, the more detailed the system gets, the less I want to run it for a bigger group. With a bigger group, I've distilled heavier systems down to their basics, and went from there.
Of course, my preferred group size is something like 1-3 players. Sometimes I get more players than that, but it just happens;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;908171
It is, and it got really old when nobody could figure out what I was supposed to have as a mission. One bit of fun with the new job - all of the student workers are gamers, and think that having me about the place is really cool. :)

I can bet they would, Uncle...
Are any of them interested in trying one of your games;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 21, 2016, 12:48:17 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;909233
Roll a d6, please;).
1. Sleeping.
2. Drinking.
3. Sleeping.
4. Drinking.
5. Whoring.
6. Sleeping.
You forgot gambling.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 21, 2016, 12:56:47 AM
Quote from: Bren;909234
You forgot gambling.

Damn right, I did - I was wondering why I have a "spare" result after I started typing my initial idea...:)
Replace 6 with "gambling", then. Or alternatively, roll a d8, and add the following results:
7. Gambling.
8. Sleeping.
Any of these should do;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 21, 2016, 01:35:19 PM
It continues to amaze me how players can turn neutral non-humans or non-Players into enemies.
You would think the effort they spend doing it would be better spent gaining them as allies.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 21, 2016, 03:57:10 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;909233
And after an absence due to actually having a holiday (which turned out worse for my nerves than work), I'm back.


Welcome back. I hope you managed at least some rest. :)

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 21, 2016, 04:06:26 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;909331
It continues to amaze me how players can turn neutral non-humans or non-Players into enemies.
You would think the effort they spend doing it would be better spent gaining them as allies.
=

I know. Some of the better players have realized that, although it's not a sure-fire method:).

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;909355
Welcome back. I hope you managed at least some rest. :)

Shemek.

I did, thank you;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 21, 2016, 09:51:24 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;909051
Thank you all for the welcome.
It is a great thread!

RE: the Unstraightened City
Thanks for the details. What you describe is sort what I imagined after reading about it on the Tekumel website. Using a Nexus point might indeed be the best way of getting in. Trying it on foot ... well, unless the PCs are accompanied by a powerful sorcerer or using some clever techno-magical apparatus, I don't see how that could be possible. Madness would take its toll well before the city proper.

RE: the Plain of Towers
Love it. What else can I say. It's perfect. Cargo cult type stuff ... but stuck on the flats of the desert. One can imagine the despair of the people who came up with the idea of constructing those mud-brick replicas long ago.


Agreed, with both your points. Which is why Eyloa got roundly chastised when we'd survived these two places.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 21, 2016, 09:54:13 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;909073
That's interesting. Gaschine sounds like one of those towns from a Sergio Leonne (sp?) Spaghetti Western: hot, dusty, decrepit, with lots of flies buzzing around, a bunch of people with nothing to do, and a gang of local toughs ready to kill you at a moment's notice.. I seem to remember Phil talking about this region over on the Blue Room. I'll look for it after work. One thing  I recall is that it's dangerous as heck, like you said.
This is the type of setting my guys have always hated because they know that underneath the "malaise" there is something that wishes to do them harm. I've never been to the Plain of Towers, I might have to send the party in that direction and see if they make it there.


Shemek.


Yes, exactly! Sergio Leone meets Beau Geste - IX Legion of the Fourth Palace (?), the Dune Leapers. "March or Die!", literally.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 21, 2016, 09:56:08 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;909171
Chirine,

Here is the post I was thinking about earlier. It's not from Phil, but from someone called David Bailey, who I think played in Phil's game at some point. I think that it's a good description of what one can expect there.

"Ah, the Plain of Towers, I remember it as a place of shifting sands and
howling winds. 'Look on my works ye mighty and despair', and all is
shadows and sudden, looming shapes.

There are strange shaman wandering in the rocky hollows and the call of sad
beasts chills the night. many of our party simply ran in fear, and a few
were spirited away in the darkness.

My warrior companion was killed when he tried to prize open the metal door
at the foot of a baked clay tower. Alas for him the baked clay was the
dust of millennia dried onto the skin of a metal spire, and the rock of
many ages fell on him.

Inside the towers there were whispering ghosts and strange visions of no
substance. In two places we found the remains of strange inhumans, one a
desiccated hokun. In other places we found a gateway to the red moon, and
in yet another we found a strange rod that devoured the souls and minds of
sorcerers.

We left, having failed to find what we sought, and in fear of our lives,
for, on the last night we heard a rushing of air from a pit in the ground,
and a party of black Ssu had come out on us by surprise.

Go not to the plain of towers my noble friends, for all is decay and
despair."

Shemek


He was a guest; this was one of Phil's 'show the guy the sights' adventures, and very well done it was, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 21, 2016, 09:57:59 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;909173
Some more questions. I came across this post from Phil, and was wondering if you could shed some more light on the subject? Both of these locations sound like they would be "fun" to explore.

"Stick to the coasts for cargo and passenger travel, and hire a good pilot
for open-water voyages. Very few navigators would ever try to sail out
to the Isle of Eyes or the lost little city of Mardza on the Isles of
Ill Wind!
"

Shemek


Been to both, courtesy of dear old Harchar. What do you want to know?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 21, 2016, 10:07:56 PM
From Hrugga:

Uncle, It has been awhile. I hope you are well. A few questions...

Enjoyng the new job, sweltering in the heat, surviving. Playing a lot of "Close Action!", these days.

I know that vampirism on Tekumel does not exist as it does here. Is there lycanthropy on Tekumel(or any types of were-creatures) that you may have encountered?
On the one-quarter of the planet we have been all over, no to both. On the other hand, have a look at the lists of creatures in EPT - there are a lot of 'native' lifeforms that are functionally the same, and then you have all the 'visitors' from other Planes. So, no, we don't get Count Dracula, but we do get the lovely ladies in the Accounting Department. (Book Six, second half.)

What do clan mothers tell their children to be careful of besides Ssu, Hluss, or the other inimicals, when they want them to behave?
They use the list in EPT; it has all the nasties needed to scare the kids right out of their wits. (Unless they're my kids, then they take it all in stride. There's a reason why I have grey hairs, these days.)

Is there any common folklore or legends(besides those of the Twenty or the epic heroes of old) common on the planet?
I don;t know about 'common', per se; every region has their own local folklore and customs, and a wise traveller learns them. I assume you're speaking of things like The Strife of the Two Brothers, up in Yan Kor?

Thank you,
You're very welcome!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 21, 2016, 10:11:46 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;909331
It continues to amaze me how players can turn neutral non-humans or non-Players into enemies.
You would think the effort they spend doing it would be better spent gaining them as allies.
=

Because 30 years of gaming history have taught them to think of NPCs as vending machines; either you stick coins in and get adventuring gear out, or you stick swords in and get XP out.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on July 22, 2016, 12:55:15 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;909429
From Hrugga:

Uncle, It has been awhile. I hope you are well. A few questions...

Enjoyng the new job, sweltering in the heat, surviving. Playing a lot of "Close Action!", these days.

I know that vampirism on Tekumel does not exist as it does here. Is there lycanthropy on Tekumel(or any types of were-creatures) that you may have encountered?
On the one-quarter of the planet we have been all over, no to both. On the other hand, have a look at the lists of creatures in EPT - there are a lot of 'native' lifeforms that are functionally the same, and then you have all the 'visitors' from other Planes. So, no, we don't get Count Dracula, but we do get the lovely ladies in the Accounting Department. (Book Six, second half.)

What do clan mothers tell their children to be careful of besides Ssu, Hluss, or the other inimicals, when they want them to behave?
They use the list in EPT; it has all the nasties needed to scare the kids right out of their wits. (Unless they're my kids, then they take it all in stride. There's a reason why I have grey hairs, these days.)

Is there any common folklore or legends(besides those of the Twenty or the epic heroes of old) common on the planet?
I don;t know about 'common', per se; every region has their own local folklore and customs, and a wise traveller learns them. I assume you're speaking of things like The Strife of the Two Brothers, up in Yan Kor?

Thank you,


You're very welcome!


Ahhh Uncle, since you mention it...could you tell us a bit about The Strife of the Two Brothers...😊

Thanks,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 22, 2016, 10:05:57 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;909430
Because 30 years of gaming history have taught them to think of NPCs as vending machines; either you stick coins in and get adventuring gear out, or you stick swords in and get XP out.


Glorious General, that is the best description of the "NPC experience" I've seen. I think DM laziness and or inexperience led to this situation. Personally, I have always played the NPC's and monsters as if they were my personal character(s). Never thought to do otherwise. I guess that's why my players approach every encounter with respect. Pushing around NPC's doesn't go too far in my game, unless the has the "legal" right to do so.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 22, 2016, 10:07:29 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;909438
Ahhh Uncle, since you mention it...could you tell us a bit about The Strife of the Two Brothers...��

Thanks,

H:0)


I second that request.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 22, 2016, 10:12:57 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;909428
Been to both, courtesy of dear old Harchar. What do you want to know?


So, why is it called the Isle of Eyes, and what's up with the Lost City: does anyone/thing live there, any goodies there.  What happened to the party when you went to these places?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on July 22, 2016, 11:06:43 AM
RE: David Bailey's post on the Plain of Towers.
So great. I can totally see myself using this description as the basis for a report/bait/warning PCs would find in one the good libraries of Tsolyanu, either by chance or on purpose, after learning of the place and researching how to get there and how to survive it. I bet such a report would terrify them and make them want to go even more!

RE: NPCs as vending machines.
Excellent point. It's an issue in most games and it really takes special players to see NPCs are real people (if that's how the gamemaster sees them too, of course). The question is: how can one invite PCs to see NPCs (when it is necessary) as more than XP machines and toy stores?
In the last game I ran, I told my players that the group of NPCs they were spying on (nonhuman creatures) had children and small infants with them ... which immediately prompted one of the women as my table to say that they, the PCs, could then perhaps talk to them (the NPCs). That made me happy, as she was correct! This approach doesn't always work though as the last time I had NPC babies in my game, the players just slaughtered them without hesitation, not realizing that they could have just talked to the parents and thus avoided a lot of horrific slaughter. Sigh.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 22, 2016, 11:07:46 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;909485
Glorious General, that is the best description of the "NPC experience" I've seen. I think DM laziness and or inexperience led to this situation. Personally, I have always played the NPC's and monsters as if they were my personal character(s). Never thought to do otherwise. I guess that's why my players approach every encounter with respect. Pushing around NPC's doesn't go too far in my game, unless the has the "legal" right to do so.

Shemek.

This goes back to the boom of D&D in the early 80s.  People ignored rules on morale, ignored rules on monster reaction, ignored alignment languages, ignored any rule that didn't directly relate to "kill everything that moves," and then bitched that the game was so bloody.

I've said before that turning over the game to 13 year olds pretty much guaranteed that you'd get Lord of the Flies; but as they got older they decided to blame the game instead of the shitty way they played.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on July 22, 2016, 01:30:12 PM
I have another question - we've just finished the Bethorm scenario "High & Dry", so I'm writing a follow-up (the PCs found the hidden "treasure map"). I'm thinking of something along the lines of:

1/ go find the treasure, whatever it is.
2/ Explore an ancient building in the forest (tubeway station)
3/ have some encounters with the locals.

Now, my mind went to the fact that Ssu use the tubeways, so I was wondering, if there are some Chnehl living in the forest near the tubeway, would the Ssu interact with them, could they train them in some way to be a bit more disciplined in order to try and use the Chnehl as patsies to attack a nearby Sakbe tower? Could the Ssu build a new pyramid structure in the Chnehl village? If so, what would it be like, inside and out? Any good ideas for interesting treasures for the PCs to find?

Of course, being a forest I'm also assuming that there may be some Dzor nearby, and either Kayi or Teqeqmu...
 
thanks in advance (!) Mark
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 22, 2016, 05:40:31 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));909503

1/ go find the treasure, whatever it is.


It is funny that players will get upset when they can't recognize the treasure when they find it.
Having it be inconvenient to move causes even more issues.

Flamesong is inspiring in that way.

chirine ba kal, how many times did you have to deal with "treasure" that wasn't what a D&D player would easily accept as treasure?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 22, 2016, 06:34:51 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;909430
Because 30 years of gaming history have taught them to think of NPCs as vending machines; either you stick coins in and get adventuring gear out, or you stick swords in and get XP out.

OK, that was funny:).
I wonder what else we could stick into them to continue the analogy...
Oh. Let's just stop there:p!

Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;909489

RE: NPCs as vending machines.
Excellent point. It's an issue in most games and it really takes special players to see NPCs are real people (if that's how the gamemaster sees them too, of course). The question is: how can one invite PCs to see NPCs (when it is necessary) as more than XP machines and toy stores?
In the last game I ran, I told my players that the group of NPCs they were spying on (nonhuman creatures) had children and small infants with them ... which immediately prompted one of the women as my table to say that they, the PCs, could then perhaps talk to them (the NPCs). That made me happy, as she was correct! This approach doesn't always work though as the last time I had NPC babies in my game, the players just slaughtered them without hesitation, not realizing that they could have just talked to the parents and thus avoided a lot of horrific slaughter. Sigh.

Child-murdering is sure to go well when they retell their exploits, no doubt.
I mean, no doubt there would be no end to the number of people that would try and challenge them to test their mettle afterwards. And somehow, I also suspect if they injure one of those people, they'd have to pay shamtla at least, while if they got injured, it would be "accidents happen in training, guys";).

More seriously: have the people (NPCs) react as people. Think what they see upon seeing the PCs.

PCs that kill casually are casual killers to them. Would they be shunned? In most settings, hell no!
But the people that would seek them and extend a hand should be the kind that makes them wonder whether they want that hand. If they ever mention it, have an NPC dismiss it. "Yeah, and you killed X, Y and Z since I was around. I give them a chance to surrender and get robbed before killing them".
But even worse: have people that like what they do and imitate them. Then let them hear about those people and get sent to dispatch them. When they meet, have the NPCs greet them and acting as their fan.
"You and I aren't that different" is so 90ies..."I learned from your example", though, might have a sting to it.

(I actually gave a martial arts student to a PC in a wuxia game. She learned, in the Confucian tradition, by imitating her teacher. She was also much more observant and covert, because of natural inclinations and life experiences.
She was also capable and her teacher was sending her to do some minor jobs for her.
When the player learned how exactly she's achieving those results, she went to ask her student (about 150 sessions into the campaign, by my estimates). The student tried to avoid it, but when asked directly, dutifully reported the details.
It lead to the memorable moment of the player exclaiming "God, I created a monster!")

Of course, don't overdo it. Meaning, don't have everyone they meet be like that. Some would be normal people willing to work with them for the greater good, or because business. Some will shun them, probably covertly. Some wouldn't know about their "exploits" (and might change their attitude later).

And even better: talk to the players. Tell them that NPCs are people.
If that fails, show...the tricks above should help.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;909490
This goes back to the boom of D&D in the early 80s.  People ignored rules on morale, ignored rules on monster reaction, ignored alignment languages, ignored any rule that didn't directly relate to "kill everything that moves," and then bitched that the game was so bloody.

I've said before that turning over the game to 13 year olds pretty much guaranteed that you'd get Lord of the Flies; but as they got older they decided to blame the game instead of the shitty way they played.

Interesting observation, that. And it rings so true with the things I dislike about D&D as usually played (and their absence in many old-school games is what initially lured me to the OSR).

Hmm, I should consider that when I have more time.

Quote from: Greentongue;909524
It is funny that players will get upset when they can't recognize the treasure when they find it.
Having it be inconvenient to move causes even more issues.

Flamesong is inspiring in that way.

chirine ba kal, how many times did you have to deal with "treasure" that wasn't what a D&D player would easily accept as treasure?
=


But try to think of anything that a Traveller player wouldn't think of as treasure...or even better, a Gamma World/other post-apocalypse game player:D! I mean, I've been in games where a spare fishing hook did count as treasure.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 23, 2016, 12:05:36 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;909438
Ahhh Uncle, since you mention it...could you tell us a bit about The Strife of the Two Brothers...��

Thanks,

H:0)

This is one of Phil's 'local folklore' things; it's covered pretty well in the Sourcebook, Section 1.610. (He also did a drawing about this, back in the early 1950s.) The two brothers, who may be mythical and maybe not, fell out over their father's patrimony and one of them got dead. Depending on where you happen to be, either the good son or the bad some got killed. It's a source of adventures for PCs, who get caught in the middle of the local factions.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 23, 2016, 12:21:26 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;909487
So, why is it called the Isle of Eyes, and what's up with the Lost City: does anyone/thing live there, any goodies there.  What happened to the party when you went to these places?

Shemek.


The Isle of Eyes is covered with the circle and dot emblem of the One Other on everything, and it's a big - maybe the - center of worship of the One Other on Tekumel. The Twenty do not hold sway there; the One Other does. The locals are kind of stand-offish, but not actively hostile unless you happen to mention that you worship one of the Twenty. Then, they get cranky and get out the sharp pointy objects.

The 'Lost City' is your basic Catherwood 'ruined city', chock full of Mysterious Ruins just begging to be explored by heroic and greedy PCs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Catherwood (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Catherwood)

Phil owned all of the guy's books and drawings, so this was Phil's answer to the genre of 'lost cities'; for all practical purposes, it's Tekumel meets Tikal, with our humble selves trying to deal with the local wildlife and exploring the place. The locals, who still live around the ruins left behind by their fallen civilization, are pretty friendly and helpful - as long as you don't act like a typical D&D player - and will direct you to the Local Points Of Interest in return for trade with you. They have a small gift shop, where you can buy stuff that they have found. Prices very reasonable, but no warranty or returns on supposedly magical items; great source of excellent fake Eyes - amaze and fool your friends! - as well as excellent deals on fabric items. (I still have several of these in my collection. Little statues, too.)

This was, I think, one of Phil's very favorite places on Tekumel. It's derived from his original career path of wanting to be a Meso-American scholar, and is a very loving and detailed version of a Classical Mayan city all done up with a bow on the package for PCs to explore. I sort of wish that he'd developed it more, and done it up as a separate adventure or even a as an RPG. Phil knew and loved his Maya, and we had a lot of fun looking around the place. Got some nice goodies, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 23, 2016, 12:26:26 AM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));909503
I have another question - we've just finished the Bethorm scenario "High & Dry", so I'm writing a follow-up (the PCs found the hidden "treasure map"). I'm thinking of something along the lines of:

1/ go find the treasure, whatever it is.
2/ Explore an ancient building in the forest (tubeway station)
3/ have some encounters with the locals.

Now, my mind went to the fact that Ssu use the tubeways, so I was wondering, if there are some Chnehl living in the forest near the tubeway, would the Ssu interact with them, could they train them in some way to be a bit more disciplined in order to try and use the Chnehl as patsies to attack a nearby Sakbe tower? Could the Ssu build a new pyramid structure in the Chnehl village? If so, what would it be like, inside and out? Any good ideas for interesting treasures for the PCs to find?

Of course, being a forest I'm also assuming that there may be some Dzor nearby, and either Kayi or Teqeqmu...
 
thanks in advance (!) Mark

It's all possible, with the caveat that I doubt that the Ssu would advertise their presence with one of their very distinctive buildings. Now, having said that, keep in mind that Phil would treat all his NPCs, of any species, as PCs and think accordingly - what you describe has been done by some of the early PCs in Phil's campaign, and I think he would have used this gambit to get the party in trouble in no time flat.

Me, I'd do it in a flash. (And I have the Ssu building, too.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 23, 2016, 12:32:08 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;909524
It is funny that players will get upset when they can't recognize the treasure when they find it.
Having it be inconvenient to move causes even more issues.

Flamesong is inspiring in that way.

chirine ba kal, how many times did you have to deal with "treasure" that wasn't what a D&D player would easily accept as treasure?
=

All the time. Eyes, books, objects, people, you name it. Tom Thompson was the only one who'd walk past really cool stuff and go for the gold and gems; we, the rest of the party, would get a lot of very - and I do mean very - nice stuff out of his trash piles. But then, Tom was a classic D&D player, and we were into the world-setting; so, we had very different goals and objectives.

Syndic of Dlash:  "Absurd! You would destroy an entire city for one woman?"
Chirine ba Kal:  "Probably not, but I certainly would for a friend." "Choose."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 23, 2016, 12:37:32 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;909532
PCs that kill casually are casual killers to them. Would they be shunned? In most settings, hell no!
But the people that would seek them and extend a hand should be the kind that makes them wonder whether they want that hand. If they ever mention it, have an NPC dismiss it. "Yeah, and you killed X, Y and Z since I was around. I give them a chance to surrender and get robbed before killing them".
But even worse: have people that like what they do and imitate them. Then let them hear about those people and get sent to dispatch them. When they meet, have the NPCs greet them and acting as their fan.
"You and I aren't that different" is so 90ies..."I learned from your example", though, might have a sting to it.

Looking back on it, I've never been a casual killer. I've always been a considered and rational one; Tekumel has been full, over the years, of people who really did need killing for very practical reasons. Phil always stopped and stared when I killed somebody; it was pretty rare when I did so. On the whole, he felt, I did perform a useful and valuable service to Tekumel by exterminating those that needed extermination. (Nobody ever came back after I got to them; there was never enough left to revivify.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 23, 2016, 12:44:00 AM
From AsenRG:
They would.
Dungeon Crawl Classics is making a Lankhmar series. And I think they might be statted as NPCs in Savage Worlds Lankhmar.
Besides, both of them are the types that just create their own traction...:D

I'd like to think so, too! I've just gotten tired of the 'politically correst' denouncing all of my old favorites as 'something-ist'.

Regardless - you not knowing what the modern gamer wants is a funny claim to make.
The folks in the OSR keep telling me this.

I feel safe in having decided to be Wes(e)lian - Major Wesley seems to have even less Sacred Scrolls, so I can't be judged by adhering to scriptures...:p
Yeah. I was talking to him the other day, and he mentioned that my series of posts on my blog and in a forum are the most that has ever been written on how to do Braunsteins as games. I do wish he'd write more!

I can bet they would, Uncle... Are any of them interested in trying one of your games;)?
I don't know yet; we'll have to see...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on July 23, 2016, 05:04:52 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;909564
It's all possible, with the caveat that I doubt that the Ssu would advertise their presence with one of their very distinctive buildings. Now, having said that, keep in mind that Phil would treat all his NPCs, of any species, as PCs and think accordingly - what you describe has been done by some of the early PCs in Phil's campaign, and I think he would have used this gambit to get the party in trouble in no time flat.

Me, I'd do it in a flash. (And I have the Ssu building, too.)

Great stuff. The location is going to be fairly deep in a forest rumoured to be nasty (Soru'a, along the Chaigava river near Katalal) of which Jeff Dee's Gazetteer says:

"The trees of this forest grow high above the Sákbe road, meeting overhead to form a somber tunnel of greenery. This place teems with wild animals, and the guards stationed at the two closest Sákbe road towers are kept very busy protecting travelers from predation."

Do you have any info about Ssu buildings? I guess they build them from local stuff, or would they ship something in via tubeway? The Hyluss use bodily secretions but the Ssu don't AFAIK.

I always run scenarios as situations rather than pre-determined events, so if the PCs do something odd/interesting/clever, then the NPCs will respond according to their desires and motivations, e.g. If they don't antagonise the Dzor, then they could use them as allies or at least as distractions.

(The High and Dry sessions went well BTW. They did find copper swords, and one PC took his to the big temple of Sarku to sell it and got a very good price, plus wine and biscuits. They have asked him to bring more along if he finds them, so I'll give him a haggling bonus with them from now on. He's only slightly worried that they were so keen to keep in touch, and he's fairly sure that one of the higher up expert evaluators wasn't breathing, but that can't be right can it?)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on July 23, 2016, 08:15:09 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;909564
It's all possible, with the caveat that I doubt that the Ssu would advertise their presence with one of their very distinctive buildings. Now, having said that, keep in mind that Phil would treat all his NPCs, of any species, as PCs and think accordingly - what you describe has been done by some of the early PCs in Phil's campaign, and I think he would have used this gambit to get the party in trouble in no time flat.

Me, I'd do it in a flash. (And I have the Ssu building, too.)


Uncle,

A quick question, could you do a short list of creatures in order of intellegence and ability to communicate with PCs? I may be just a bit lazy(and dumb), but I can not seem to remember seeing intelligence scores for the creatures in EPT.
Thank you...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on July 23, 2016, 08:19:46 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;909563
The Isle of Eyes is covered with the circle and dot emblem of the One Other on everything, and it's a big - maybe the - center of worship of the One Other on Tekumel. The Twenty do not hold sway there; the One Other does. The locals are kind of stand-offish, but not actively hostile unless you happen to mention that you worship one of the Twenty. Then, they get cranky and get out the sharp pointy objects.

The 'Lost City' is your basic Catherwood 'ruined city', chock full of Mysterious Ruins just begging to be explored by heroic and greedy PCs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Catherwood (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Catherwood)

Phil owned all of the guy's books and drawings, so this was Phil's answer to the genre of 'lost cities'; for all practical purposes, it's Tekumel meets Tikal, with our humble selves trying to deal with the local wildlife and exploring the place. The locals, who still live around the ruins left behind by their fallen civilization, are pretty friendly and helpful - as long as you don't act like a typical D&D player - and will direct you to the Local Points Of Interest in return for trade with you. They have a small gift shop, where you can buy stuff that they have found. Prices very reasonable, but no warranty or returns on supposedly magical items; great source of excellent fake Eyes - amaze and fool your friends! - as well as excellent deals on fabric items. (I still have several of these in my collection. Little statues, too.)

This was, I think, one of Phil's very favorite places on Tekumel. It's derived from his original career path of wanting to be a Meso-American scholar, and is a very loving and detailed version of a Classical Mayan city all done up with a bow on the package for PCs to explore. I sort of wish that he'd developed it more, and done it up as a separate adventure or even a as an RPG. Phil knew and loved his Maya, and we had a lot of fun looking around the place. Got some nice goodies, too.


Thank you Uncle. I just found another reason to spend my hard earned money. I have seen Catherwoods drawings before, now I just looked up some of the books. Beautiful...

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on July 23, 2016, 08:29:03 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;909565
All the time. Eyes, books, objects, people, you name it. Tom Thompson was the only one who'd walk past really cool stuff and go for the gold and gems; we, the rest of the party, would get a lot of very - and I do mean very - nice stuff out of his trash piles. But then, Tom was a classic D&D player, and we were into the world-setting; so, we had very different goals and objectives.

Syndic of Dlash:  "Absurd! You would destroy an entire city for one woman?"
Chirine ba Kal:  "Probably not, but I certainly would for a friend." "Choose."


That reminds me. How goes TSTPT...?

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 23, 2016, 09:30:48 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;909566
Looking back on it, I've never been a casual killer. I've always been a considered and rational one; Tekumel has been full, over the years, of people who really did need killing for very practical reasons. Phil always stopped and stared when I killed somebody; it was pretty rare when I did so. On the whole, he felt, I did perform a useful and valuable service to Tekumel by exterminating those that needed extermination. (Nobody ever came back after I got to them; there was never enough left to revivify.)

I'm fine with that type of PCs, as you know:). The advice was for "let's kill children because NPCs are there for that" types...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;909567
From AsenRG:
I'd like to think so, too! I've just gotten tired of the 'politically correst' denouncing all of my old favorites as 'something-ist'.

Well, I just stop listening to them. Now I wonder whether they're going to achieve the same with most people;).

Quote
The folks in the OSR keep telling me this.

And I still tell you that's a funny claim to make. I'm probably younger than most of those folks, too, and I'm the eldest in my group. All of those players seem to react well to a similar style...indeed, I've been asked to add more miniatures, but couldn't for storage reasons.
Some of the most successful games out there are miniatures-based, too.
Almost all modern gamers react well to exploration-based games. Most assume without even thinking that the GM is supposed to be impartial, like in a computer game - getting used to the opposite takes years of conditioning...

So yeah, it's a funny claim.

Quote
Yeah. I was talking to him the other day, and he mentioned that my series of posts on my blog and in a forum are the most that has ever been written on how to do Braunsteins as games. I do wish he'd write more!

It might be a good idea, if he can be persuaded...
If not, we'd have to try and keep the spirit, and improvise on our own.

Quote
I don't know yet; we'll have to see...

Good luck with that!

Quote from: Hrugga;909589
Thank you Uncle. I just found another reason to spend my hard earned money. I have seen Catherwoods drawings before, now I just looked up some of the books. Beautiful...

H;0)

You and me both:D.

BTW, I think this book might be useful for some GMs, and there's a couple interesting ceremonies that can be re-purposed for Tekumel...
https://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/gutenberg.org/3/5/9/1/35915/35915-h/35915-h.html
No, it's not Catherwoods', but then no need to restrict ourselves, right;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on July 23, 2016, 10:07:19 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;909593
I'm fine with that type of PCs, as you know:). The advice was for "let's kill children because NPCs are there for that" types...


Well, I just stop listening to them. Now I wonder whether they're going to achieve the same with most people;).


And I still tell you that's a funny claim to make. I'm probably younger than most of those folks, too, and I'm the eldest in my group. All of those players seem to react well to a similar style...indeed, I've been asked to add more miniatures, but couldn't for storage reasons.
Some of the most successful games out there are miniatures-based, too.
Almost all modern gamers react well to exploration-based games. Most assume without even thinking that the GM is supposed to be impartial, like in a computer game - getting used to the opposite takes years of conditioning...

So yeah, it's a funny claim.


It might be a good idea, if he can be persuaded...
If not, we'd have to try and keep the spirit, and improvise on our own.


Good luck with that!


You and me both:D.

BTW, I think this book might be useful for some GMs, and there's a couple interesting ceremonies that can be re-purposed for Tekumel...
https://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/gutenberg.org/3/5/9/1/35915/35915-h/35915-h.html
No, it's not Catherwoods', but then no need to restrict ourselves, right;)?

Excellent resource!!! Thank you!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 24, 2016, 04:21:27 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;909597
Excellent resource!!! Thank you!!!

H:0)

You're welcome, mighty Hrugga:)!
Title: New to Tekumel
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 24, 2016, 11:00:39 AM
The other day I had the opportunity to visit a game store. I was looking around, and as is often the case, I struck up a conversation with another patron, and I believe the owner of the shop. We started talking about what we were playing and I told them that I was running a Tekumel campaign. What I found funny was, after the usual that 'it was too difficult to pronounce the names correctly' etc., they felt that what was needed in order for them, and presumably others, to "play Tekumel" was a proper rule-set, and it was this lack of rules that really limited the popularity of the game. My response was that you can use any rules that you like and modify them to suit yourself and the milieu. This, surprisingly to me, received a luke warm response. I also went on and told them that all they really needed to adventure on Tekumel were the Sourcebooks, one of the novels (probably MoG or FS were the best ones to initially pick up),some type of monster listing, maybe a listing of Tekumel spells, and some type of mechanism to resolve combat and other important situations in an impartial way. All of these things are readily available on line in some form or another.
If they absolutely wanted 'new rules', in order to play then Bethorm was in print, and from my initial impression of the game, and from what those who have played it say, it seems like a solid set of rules. I also recommended the original EPT or Arrows of Indra if the wanted a simpler set of rules, and that they check out some of the Tekumel related websites. I don't know if I convinced them, but it got me thinking.
What would you recommend if someone wanted to start adventuring on Tekumel?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: DavetheLost on July 24, 2016, 11:07:41 AM
My recommendation would be a copy of the original EPT, and either Man of Gold or Flamesong to show how the world looks to those who live in it.
Those and an open mind really make a good jumping off point. Tekumel need not be as intimidating as most people make it out to be. Unless you have the misfortune to play with a canon purist, and those can derail any RPG campaign.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on July 24, 2016, 02:58:01 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;909672
If they absolutely wanted 'new rules', in order to play then Bethorm was in print, and from my initial impression of the game, and from what those who have played it say, it seems like a solid set of rules.

Shemek

Well, as far as I'm concerned, I have neither the time nor the interest in adapting a system to Tékumel. I'd rather play! So, here are my suggestions:

I can say that Béthorm works remarkably well. The character creation is a bit involved with some back and forth to add and subtract bonuses and what not, but it covers all of the important bits, including coming up with "contacts", so that characters are not isolated sets of numbers, but people with a past, some friends, maybe a family and a social standing. Once that's done, using the rules is super easy. And, more importantly, they stay out of the way of the game and whatever happens. In other words, the action flows ... and only with 2D10, max. Very happy with and pleasantly surprised by them.
I'd recommend checking out the Béthorm website too, as Jeff Dee is responsive with good solutions to problems or questions players might have.

That's for the latest, official rules. Then you have the free, unofficial ones.
The latest (as there are others, more or less complex, like Dave Morris' excellent, battle-tested Tirikelu, available on the Tékumel website) is from Brett Slocum. It's called The Petal Hack, is based on The Black Hack sets of rules, and is available for free on the RPGnow website.

I must say, for a quick a dirty system to quickly create characters and get going, it's fantastic. Slocum's system does all the things Black Hack does but in the Tékumel context. So, characters are created in minutes, and the system (read in minutes) gives you monster stats, spells, as well as, of course, rules for fast combat and quick skill resolutions. It's not a deep system, and there's little context, but by the gods, it will get you started in no time. Run a quick dungeon crawl with some tasty Tékumel critters and treasure, and naive but curious players will be interested in continuing.

Besides that, I would, with more time, read the first two novels (Flamesong before Man of Gold perhaps, as it's the better of the two), but only after spending a lot of time on the Tékumel website, which is very well done and contains a lot of information, including very good one-shot scenarios. Plenty to get started.

Jeff Dee, him again, also did a short but very good Q&A on gaming on Tékumel at the 2015 Celesticon Game Convention. It's very good because he manages to show that playing on Tékumel is not that much more complex or difficult than playing on any other world with an interesting world and lore. I wish some of it was written down somewhere, as a sort of GM tips and advice thing.

http://www.celesticon.com/Podcasts/Podcasts2015/JeffDee_Tekumel_C2015.mp3
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: DavetheLost on July 24, 2016, 04:51:19 PM
I forgot The Petal Hack. It is quite accessible and it's free!
Jeff Dee also has considerable Tekumel art on his DeviantArt page. Including most of the major races. Nothing like a good visual.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 24, 2016, 07:07:12 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));909575
Great stuff. The location is going to be fairly deep in a forest rumoured to be nasty (Soru'a, along the Chaigava river near Katalal) of which Jeff Dee's Gazetteer says:

"The trees of this forest grow high above the Sákbe road, meeting overhead to form a somber tunnel of greenery. This place teems with wild animals, and the guards stationed at the two closest Sákbe road towers are kept very busy protecting travelers from predation."

Do you have any info about Ssu buildings? I guess they build them from local stuff, or would they ship something in via tubeway? The Hyluss use bodily secretions but the Ssu don't AFAIK.

I always run scenarios as situations rather than pre-determined events, so if the PCs do something odd/interesting/clever, then the NPCs will respond according to their desires and motivations, e.g. If they don't antagonise the Dzor, then they could use them as allies or at least as distractions.

(The High and Dry sessions went well BTW. They did find copper swords, and one PC took his to the big temple of Sarku to sell it and got a very good price, plus wine and biscuits. They have asked him to bring more along if he finds them, so I'll give him a haggling bonus with them from now on. He's only slightly worried that they were so keen to keep in touch, and he's fairly sure that one of the higher up expert evaluators wasn't breathing, but that can't be right can it?)


Well, the Ssu cities are underground, with equilateral triangular little pyramids over the entrance shafts. I think that if they were going to start a base in the area, they'd bring in a prefab 'shed' to shelter in while they started digging. They'd also prefer to use any existing holes in the ground, like caves or something, and if they found something that looked to be an entrance into a forgotten underworld or lost temple, they'd use that.

The shed would, based on an encounter we had early on out at Phil's, most likely be a geodesic dome, made of prefab panels. The panels might be wood or metal, or something else; we found a funny little dome out in the woods near Tu'umnra, which wasn't the usual Pe Choi extruded chitin (The Hlyss do the same thing) but was a geodesic dome made of the ceramic-metal alloy usually used by the ancients. It reeked of cinnamon, had the usual Ssu bits of parchment-like shed skin inside, and which convinced us to run away as fast as we could - with the notion of coming back later with a cohort or two of soldiers so we could grab the thing and live to tell about it. What was it? My guess, based on Phil's sense of humor, was that it was a military shelter kit of the Ancients that the Su had found someplace and were using.

He always played them as if they were as smart as we were; if we'd do something like this, then they certainly would.

Great game session, from the sound of it! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 24, 2016, 07:12:34 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;909588
Uncle,

A quick question, could you do a short list of creatures in order of intellegence and ability to communicate with PCs? I may be just a bit lazy(and dumb), but I can not seem to remember seeing intelligence scores for the creatures in EPT.
Thank you...

H:0)


 I can, based on what we encountered, but it'll take a bit of time while I look everything up. For the short term, I'd look in EPT; no, there are no INT stats for the creatures, but the descriptions do say things like 'semi-intelligent'. In general, creatures like the Thunru'u, Serudla, Feshenga - the ones with arms and opposable thumbs - would be more or less on a par with humans; no thumbs, but able to understand spoken languages, a little less then humans; no thumbs and no languages way below humans.

I'll try to get this done as fast as I can.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 24, 2016, 07:14:00 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;909589
Thank you Uncle. I just found another reason to spend my hard earned money. I have seen Catherwoods drawings before, now I just looked up some of the books. Beautiful...

H;0)


Yep. Phil loved the artwork that Catherwood did, and would pull it out whenever he could to remind us of what we were looking at. Which is why I have so much faux-Mayan aquarium stuff in the scenery bins... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 24, 2016, 07:15:57 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;909590
That reminds me. How goes TSTPT...?

H:0)


Not too badly, if I do say so, myself. Now that I'm back on a regular schedule in a regular work environment with a lot less stress - and the Missus has updated this computer to a much newer version of Word - I'm getting back into the groove of regular writing sessions.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 24, 2016, 07:31:58 PM
From AsenRG:
I'm fine with that type of PCs, as you know:). The advice was for "let's kill children because NPCs are there for that" types...
Understood. I've killed a lot of they type of player, over the years, and I'm about to do the same to the players in the group where I'm playing the bandit chief. The goody-two-shoes-Lawful-Good meatballs killed a bunch of our people after they'd surrendered - and offered ransoms - so I am going to have to take some action to remind them that this is a business operation and not some sort of stupid Holy Crusade. I'll make them an offer that they can't refuse, and if they don't they'll be sleeping with the fishes.

Well, I just stop listening to them. Now I wonder whether they're going to achieve the same with most people;).
Understood; I've just gotten tired of being bitched at, and my work denounced as being 'politically incorrect'. Modesty bars on one-inch tall figures? Really? I mean, I understand why a manufacturer would do it, just not the need for it.

Then again, of course, after having been married for over twenty-five years, the mystery is off.

And I still tell you that's a funny claim to make. I'm probably younger than most of those folks, too, and I'm the eldest in my group. All of those players seem to react well to a similar style...indeed, I've been asked to add more miniatures, but couldn't for storage reasons.
Some of the most successful games out there are miniatures-based, too.
Almost all modern gamers react well to exploration-based games. Most assume without even thinking that the GM is supposed to be impartial, like in a computer game - getting used to the opposite takes years of conditioning...


So yeah, it's a funny claim.
All right, it's funny. And I still get hassled for my views on gaming, which is why I don't let just any thudpucker in the door any more. I suspect it's something in the water here locally, and the usual Internet need-to-be-right on line.

It might be a good idea, if he can be persuaded...
If not, we'd have to try and keep the spirit, and improvise on our own.

Could not agree more; Braunsteins are inherently improvisational in the very nature. I just do them, and not worry about 'rules'. ("Too hand-wavy", "Too loosy-goosy", Well-Known Internet Gamer-commentators say...)

BTW, I think this book might be useful for some GMs, and there's a couple interesting ceremonies that can be re-purposed for Tekumel...
https://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/gutenberg.org/3/5/9/1/35915/35915-h/35915-h.html
No, it's not Catherwoods', but then no need to restrict ourselves, right;)?

Great resource, there!!! Very handy for when you run into local groups, as this is what Phil would have used. For all I know, he had a copy - I'll look in the inventory. I am pretty sure he'd read it - some of the chapter headings sound like things he'd said in game sessions...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 24, 2016, 07:40:51 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;909672
The other day I had the opportunity to visit a game store. I was looking around, and as is often the case, I struck up a conversation with another patron, and I believe the owner of the shop. We started talking about what we were playing and I told them that I was running a Tekumel campaign. What I found funny was, after the usual that 'it was too difficult to pronounce the names correctly' etc., they felt that what was needed in order for them, and presumably others, to "play Tekumel" was a proper rule-set, and it was this lack of rules that really limited the popularity of the game. My response was that you can use any rules that you like and modify them to suit yourself and the milieu. This, surprisingly to me, received a luke warm response. I also went on and told them that all they really needed to adventure on Tekumel were the Sourcebooks, one of the novels (probably MoG or FS were the best ones to initially pick up),some type of monster listing, maybe a listing of Tekumel spells, and some type of mechanism to resolve combat and other important situations in an impartial way. All of these things are readily available on line in some form or another.
If they absolutely wanted 'new rules', in order to play then Bethorm was in print, and from my initial impression of the game, and from what those who have played it say, it seems like a solid set of rules. I also recommended the original EPT or Arrows of Indra if the wanted a simpler set of rules, and that they check out some of the Tekumel related websites. I don't know if I convinced them, but it got me thinking.
What would you recommend if someone wanted to start adventuring on Tekumel?

Shemek


Very, very familiar story; I've been hearing this same thing from gamers now since 1978 or so.

From what I've seen and heard, over the years, gamers seem to want to have things made as simple for them as possible. All right; get a copy of EPT and use that as the introductory game. Then get "Bethorm" when and if you want something more 'crunchy', as I understand the term. I'd get the Sourcebook when I got "Bethorm", not before; EPT has all one needs for a start.

The problem, as I see it, is that we never had any sort of playable 'module' to hand to people, with the exception of "Tomb Complex of Nereshanbo". (I do not include "Nightmare Maze"; it's unplayable, in my opinion.) Jeff Dee's done a good job of providing one with his adventure, and 'backdating' that for EPT is doable.

Phil's novels are nice, but pretty dense - "Flamesong" is a better introduction to Tekumel then "Man of Gold" is. The latter ones are graduate-studies materials, not freshmen texts.

Beyond that, maybe my book, but that's still a ways out yet. The other replies are also very good, too!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 24, 2016, 09:51:48 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;909714
Understood. I've killed a lot of they type of player, over the years, and I'm about to do the same to the players in the group where I'm playing the bandit chief. The goody-two-shoes-Lawful-Good meatballs killed a bunch of our people after they'd surrendered - and offered ransoms - so I am going to have to take some action to remind them that this is a business operation and not some sort of stupid Holy Crusade.

Oh, deary me.  Killing a surrendered prisoner is very, very unchivalrous.  (also not very "goody two shoes Lawful Good," but that game doesn't use D&D style alignment.)

I do wonder what Sir Nigel Blackthorne was about, he usually is a most chivalrous and worshipful knight.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 24, 2016, 09:56:01 PM
For those wondering I know the game and the players Chirine is talking about.  Some of them (though quite nice people) have this attitude rather like they're in a slightly more violent Disney movie -- "anybody against us must be bad because we're good because we're us."

Frankly and in confidence, I'm looking forward to them getting a few short, sharp shocks, as Francis Urquhart would say.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on July 25, 2016, 03:53:10 AM
Chirine,

Any information on "The First Founder" (supposedly, the first human who ever set foot on Tékumel), his "ghostly" sons and the ruins/location of his original dwelling?

The Sourcebook mentions that his house is ruined if not completely destroyed, but it also says that some people know where it was located and that the First Founder's ghosts still haunts that area, seemingly cursed by the Ssu as "the despoiler of their world".

What do you know about it, if anything?
Thanks.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 25, 2016, 04:32:23 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;909672
The other day I had the opportunity to visit a game store. I was looking around, and as is often the case, I struck up a conversation with another patron, and I believe the owner of the shop. We started talking about what we were playing and I told them that I was running a Tekumel campaign. What I found funny was, after the usual that 'it was too difficult to pronounce the names correctly' etc., they felt that what was needed in order for them, and presumably others, to "play Tekumel" was a proper rule-set, and it was this lack of rules that really limited the popularity of the game. My response was that you can use any rules that you like and modify them to suit yourself and the milieu. This, surprisingly to me, received a luke warm response. I also went on and told them that all they really needed to adventure on Tekumel were the Sourcebooks, one of the novels (probably MoG or FS were the best ones to initially pick up),some type of monster listing, maybe a listing of Tekumel spells, and some type of mechanism to resolve combat and other important situations in an impartial way. All of these things are readily available on line in some form or another.
If they absolutely wanted 'new rules', in order to play then Bethorm was in print, and from my initial impression of the game, and from what those who have played it say, it seems like a solid set of rules. I also recommended the original EPT or Arrows of Indra if the wanted a simpler set of rules, and that they check out some of the Tekumel related websites. I don't know if I convinced them, but it got me thinking.
What would you recommend if someone wanted to start adventuring on Tekumel?

Shemek


Get Bethorm, add as much setting info as you can find online and start playing. When in doubt, consult  Swords and Glory, Zaenobia:Aegypt, or make up something that would look plausible to a Tekumel person, or barring that, to
Then start playing, right now, not waiting for the Holy Writ to be revealed unto you, for the only thing that matters with fictional settings is what you like!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on July 25, 2016, 08:09:41 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;909709
I can, based on what we encountered, but it'll take a bit of time while I look everything up. For the short term, I'd look in EPT; no, there are no INT stats for the creatures, but the descriptions do say things like 'semi-intelligent'. In general, creatures like the Thunru'u, Serudla, Feshenga - the ones with arms and opposable thumbs - would be more or less on a par with humans; no thumbs, but able to understand spoken languages, a little less then humans; no thumbs and no languages way below humans.

I'll try to get this done as fast as I can.


As far as creatures that speak go, I would think that they speak the language of the area where they are encountered...?
Of course I'm sure there are those special cases that do not fit the norm.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on July 25, 2016, 12:56:33 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;909710
Yep. Phil loved the artwork that Catherwood did, and would pull it out whenever he could to remind us of what we were looking at. Which is why I have so much faux-Mayan aquarium stuff in the scenery bins... :)

Can I just say that I'd not seen much of Catherwood's work before, so when you mentioned it the other day I went to look it up and as a result have had to buy a large expensive art-book from Amazon covering his illustrations... so thanks, sort of... (mutters into his beer glass)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on July 25, 2016, 01:00:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;909707
Well, the Ssu cities are underground, with equilateral triangular little pyramids over the entrance shafts. I think that if they were going to start a base in the area, they'd bring in a prefab 'shed' to shelter in while they started digging. They'd also prefer to use any existing holes in the ground, like caves or something, and if they found something that looked to be an entrance into a forgotten underworld or lost temple, they'd use that.

The shed would, based on an encounter we had early on out at Phil's, most likely be a geodesic dome, made of prefab panels. The panels might be wood or metal, or something else; we found a funny little dome out in the woods near Tu'umnra, which wasn't the usual Pe Choi extruded chitin (The Hlyss do the same thing) but was a geodesic dome made of the ceramic-metal alloy usually used by the ancients. It reeked of cinnamon, had the usual Ssu bits of parchment-like shed skin inside, and which convinced us to run away as fast as we could - with the notion of coming back later with a cohort or two of soldiers so we could grab the thing and live to tell about it. What was it? My guess, based on Phil's sense of humor, was that it was a military shelter kit of the Ancients that the Su had found someplace and were using.

He always played them as if they were as smart as we were; if we'd do something like this, then they certainly would.

Great game session, from the sound of it! :)

Aha, ok that sounds good, thank you for the details, I shall make good use of them.

Yes, it ran over three sessions, and we have some good characters, a hunter with a trained Kuni, who is massively in debt (the PC not the Kuni), a Ksarul priest addicted to hnequ and somewhat deaf due to a lab explosion who used all his starting cash to buy an 8 bearer palanquin (with a relief carrying team of another 8 bearers), because obviously appearing important makes you important, a warrior of Vimhula with hennaed red hair and a mystical outlook, another is a warrior of Karakan who seems to break swords regularly and an Aridani farmer follower of Avanthe who is the toughest of the lot!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 25, 2016, 01:01:05 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;909736
Then start playing, right now, not waiting for the Holy Writ to be revealed unto you, for the only thing that matters with fictional settings is what you like!


I have a Play by Post "Tekumel" game that I have done that with EPT.
This month will make one year of the game.
If I can do that in a format that drops players like flys, you should have no problem.
What's the worst that can happen?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 25, 2016, 10:49:07 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));909775
a hunter with a trained Kuni, who is massively in debt (the PC not the Kuni), a Ksarul priest addicted to hnequ and somewhat deaf due to a lab explosion who used all his starting cash to buy an 8 bearer palanquin (with a relief carrying team of another 8 bearers), because obviously appearing important makes you important, a warrior of Vimhula with hennaed red hair and a mystical outlook, another is a warrior of Karakan who seems to break swords regularly and an Aridani farmer follower of Avanthe who is the toughest of the lot!

"You get a mixed bag in any convention burg."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 26, 2016, 06:48:10 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;909776
This month will make one year of the game.
=

I just realized that this thread started at about the same time as my current set of players.
Wow
This thread is over a year old and has 70,000+ views.

I guess there is still some interest in Tekumel.  ;)
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 26, 2016, 08:13:12 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;909776
I have a Play by Post "Tekumel" game that I have done that with EPT.
This month will make one year of the game.
If I can do that in a format that drops players like flys, you should have no problem.
What's the worst that can happen?
=

Quote from: Greentongue;909854
I just realized that this thread started at about the same time as my current set of players.
Wow
This thread is over a year old and has 70,000+ views.

I guess there is still some interest in Tekumel.  ;)
=
And to this, I can only nod and say "indeed"!

(In fact, I consider Tekumel-like settings and the approach exhibited by Chirine&Co crucial for PbP games, if you want to overcome the format's weakness "drops players like flies". But that goes outside the current topic of discussion, except insofar that, as you mentioned, "there's obviously some interest in Tekumel").
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: DavetheLost on July 26, 2016, 08:31:15 AM
This thread has hit 400 pages, and is just two posts shy of four THOUSAND. That speaks of some interest in Tekumel.

BTW I would love to lurk or play in a PbeM Tekumel game.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 26, 2016, 08:41:24 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;909866
And to this, I can only nod and say "indeed"!

(In fact, I consider Tekumel-like settings and the approach exhibited by Chirine&Co crucial for PbP games, if you want to overcome the format's weakness "drops players like flies". But that goes outside the current topic of discussion, except insofar that, as you mentioned, "there's obviously some interest in Tekumel").


I think that there is a lot more interest than we think, but the erroneously preconceived notions associated with it causes a lot of people to give Tekumel a pass.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 26, 2016, 08:42:26 AM
Quote from: DavetheLost;909870
This thread has hit 400 pages, and is just two posts shy of four THOUSAND. That speaks of some interest in Tekumel.

BTW I would love to lurk or play in a PbeM Tekumel game.

A lot of interest IMO.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 26, 2016, 08:43:45 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;909874
I think that there is a lot more interest than we think, but the erroneously preconceived notions associated with it causes a lot of people to give Tekumel a pass.

Shemek.
That's my opinion as well:).

Quote from: DavetheLost;909870
This thread has hit 400 pages, and is just two posts shy of four THOUSAND. That speaks of some interest in Tekumel.

BTW I would love to lurk or play in a PbeM Tekumel game.

Greentongue is very accommodating to us lurkers, I assure you.

Also, we're now one post past four thousands;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 26, 2016, 08:54:48 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;909876
That's my opinion as well:).



Greentongue is very accommodating to us lurkers, I assure you.

Also, we're now one post past four thousands;).

He is, and we are.:p

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on July 26, 2016, 11:40:20 AM
Otuléngba!!! Keep up the good work. Ask away!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 26, 2016, 06:39:42 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;909720
Oh, deary me.  Killing a surrendered prisoner is very, very unchivalrous.  (also not very "goody two shoes Lawful Good," but that game doesn't use D&D style alignment.)

I do wonder what Sir Nigel Blackthorne was about, he usually is a most chivalrous and worshipful knight.


Yeah, I said the same thing when I heard about the incident. From what I gather, the party did discuss what to do with the prisoners, then killed them mostly because they couldn't think of anything better to do with them. About all it got them was a bad reputation and cheesed off the rest of the staff, so it's going to be hard to keep everybody from retaliating. We'll see, I suppose.

The good news is that the guy in charge of my people got killed for trying to take on heavy cavalry with light infantry, in the open with no cover. Saves me an execution for being stupid.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 26, 2016, 06:42:27 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;909721
For those wondering I know the game and the players Chirine is talking about.  Some of them (though quite nice people) have this attitude rather like they're in a slightly more violent Disney movie -- "anybody against us must be bad because we're good because we're us."

Frankly and in confidence, I'm looking forward to them getting a few short, sharp shocks, as Francis Urquhart would say.


I think you're right, from what I'm seeing. I also don't think that they've ever faced a live opponent in an RPG; but then, I survived Fred's World. Personally, I think they're in for an Old School Revival time of it, but not in the way that most people would think.

My, oh, my; I do think they're in for an education. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 26, 2016, 06:57:54 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;909735
Chirine,

Any information on "The First Founder" (supposedly, the first human who ever set foot on Tékumel), his "ghostly" sons and the ruins/location of his original dwelling?

The Sourcebook mentions that his house is ruined if not completely destroyed, but it also says that some people know where it was located and that the First Founder's ghosts still haunts that area, seemingly cursed by the Ssu as "the despoiler of their world".

What do you know about it, if anything?
Thanks.


Well, we found out about the First Founder when Phil plopped the copy of the manuscript of "Man of Gold" down on the table; he'd kept it secret until he sent it off to DAW. After that, it was all little hints here and there, over the years.

As ner as we can make out, the First Founder is the Lord of Humanspace who did the terraforming of Tekumel. He (and its only a supposition that he's a he, by the way) did all the contracts with the various races and beings to actually did the work. the Ngoro, for example, were hired as guardians - and since they are colony creatures, the Ngoro you meet may very well be a the colony that dates back to the time of the Ancients. We think that the Brotherhood of the Half-Human is also part of his legacy, along with some of the more recondite bits of ancient technology.

I have my own theory as to where his residence is located; it's one of our adventures. (Hoo, boy, and it was An Adventure.) As for the 'ghosts', what you see are manifestations of other-planar energy, not 'spirits' in the sense we use 'ghost'; people and events that involve a lot of energy create 'corona effects' where images of other places and times can be seen. There are a number of locations on Tekumel where this happens; there's a ruined Engsvanyali palace up in the Desert of Sighs where a party has been going on for centuries. Big heavy-duty 'curses' will do this thing as well; the person 'cursed' can be trapped in an infinite time loop, for example.

So, what little we do know is that this person was hired by the Hokun, he and his people fought and repressed the Ssu and Hlyss (and some others, like the Churstalli), they did the terra-forming, there was some sort of falling out with the Hokun, and he left stuff - like the Egg of the World, the planetary defense base on Kashi, and quite possibly Avanthar the Mighty herself - all over Tekumel for us to find. Think Rassilon, if you will; I can only note that Phil was a big Dr. Who fan.

I'm sorry I don't have more; have you looked in the Blue Room Archive?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 26, 2016, 07:01:34 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;909753
As far as creatures that speak go, I would think that they speak the language of the area where they are encountered...?
Of course I'm sure there are those special cases that do not fit the norm.

H:0)


Yes. And any creatures found in the Underworld usually speak the Secret Tongue of the Priests of Ksarul, too, which is why we all took it. (Phil was very annoyed, but rolled with it.) The Gachiyal, the dragons, tend to speak Irkutz, 'Ancient Nlyssa' in EPT. The dragons of Blackmoor also speak this particular language; make of that what you will...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 26, 2016, 07:24:47 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));909774
Can I just say that I'd not seen much of Catherwood's work before, so when you mentioned it the other day I went to look it up and as a result have had to buy a large expensive art-book from Amazon covering his illustrations... so thanks, sort of... (mutters into his beer glass)


Well, you're very welcome; it's one of the books that Phil would use as his own inspiration and references. At the risk of more muttering, may I also suggest the Taschen 'Icons' editions of Piranesi and Napoleon's "Description of Egypt", and Tatiana Proskuriakoff's "An Album of Maya Architecture"? Phil knew the lady, who was one of the people who finally translated the Mayan glyphs...

These books are some of the 'Ur-books' that Phil was inspired by - he owned a number of them - and which he showed to us to illustrate how he viewed his creation. (There's a lot of the Pharaohs and the Maya in Tekumel; I'd like to think they'd be pleased.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 26, 2016, 07:26:30 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));909775
Aha, ok that sounds good, thank you for the details, I shall make good use of them.

Yes, it ran over three sessions, and we have some good characters, a hunter with a trained Kuni, who is massively in debt (the PC not the Kuni), a Ksarul priest addicted to hnequ and somewhat deaf due to a lab explosion who used all his starting cash to buy an 8 bearer palanquin (with a relief carrying team of another 8 bearers), because obviously appearing important makes you important, a warrior of Vimhula with hennaed red hair and a mystical outlook, another is a warrior of Karakan who seems to break swords regularly and an Aridani farmer follower of Avanthe who is the toughest of the lot!


Wonderful! :)

We learned, the hard way, never to pick on farmers.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 26, 2016, 07:27:21 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;909776
I have a Play by Post "Tekumel" game that I have done that with EPT.
This month will make one year of the game.
If I can do that in a format that drops players like flys, you should have no problem.
What's the worst that can happen?
=


Congratulations! May I look in on the thing, if that would be all right?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 26, 2016, 07:30:32 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;909820
"You get a mixed bag in any convention burg."


Ain't that the truth!

(As an aside, I've been offered an option on Pete Galylord's Ancients. I'm pretty heartbroken over it; I don't think I can make a decent offer, but I'd love to see these figures get used again. They've been sitting in a box for ages, I guess. Scrubys, too, and I think 40mm; the infamous elephant isn't there; Pete seems to have disposed of it about twenty years ago. Advice?)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 26, 2016, 07:37:32 PM
I'd like to say that I'm both astounded and pleased at how this thread has been going; I'm very happy to be able to answer your questions. I guess that I'm a little surprised that our antics, all those years ago, still amaze and amuse; we didn't think we were creating history, or doing some sort of recondite artform - we were sitting around a Ping-Pong ball table, exploring an amazing world and having a lot of fun doing it...

Thank you all, once again, for your participation in this thread - you, and your interest in Phil's Tekumel, are what's keeping it and his memory alive.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on July 26, 2016, 07:44:57 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;909941
Well, you're very welcome; it's one of the books that Phil would use as his own inspiration and references. At the risk of more muttering, may I also suggest the Taschen 'Icons' editions of Piranesi and Napoleon's "Description of Egypt", and Tatiana Proskuriakoff's "An Album of Maya Architecture"? Phil knew the lady, who was one of the people who finally translated the Mayan glyphs...

These books are some of the 'Ur-books' that Phil was inspired by - he owned a number of them - and which he showed to us to illustrate how he viewed his creation. (There's a lot of the Pharaohs and the Maya in Tekumel; I'd like to think they'd be pleased.)

 
There is a NOVA special on the cracking of the Mayan code. Fantastic stuff!!! Not to mention A Forest of Kings.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 26, 2016, 07:46:36 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;909948
There is a NOVA special on the cracking of the Mayan code. Fantastic stuff!!! Not to mention A Forest of Kings.

H:0)

Yep! I have a copy, and it reads like one of Phil's descriptions of someone or some place... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 26, 2016, 07:47:57 PM
Chirine,

I have a question about magic weapons. In EPT there is a section on rolling up magical weapons, with special abilities, ego, intelligence, alignment, special characteristics, etc. Did Phil have any of these weapons in the game? They seem more D&D, than EPT, IMO (:D)

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 26, 2016, 07:52:53 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;909946
I'd like to say that I'm both astounded and pleased at how this thread has been going; I'm very happy to be able to answer your questions. I guess that I'm a little surprised that our antics, all those years ago, still amaze and amuse; we didn't think we were creating history, or doing some sort of recondite artform - we were sitting around a Ping-Pong ball table, exploring an amazing world and having a lot of fun doing it...

Thank you all, once again, for your participation in this thread - you, and your interest in Phil's Tekumel, are what's keeping it and his memory alive.

For me personally this thread sometimes feels like I'm at the above mentioned ping-pong table. It's a pleasure to be a part of. Thank you for taking the time to answer all the questions. I wholeheartedly agree that it's forums like this that keep Tekumel alive, and I'd like to think that were Phil alive he might even be an active member.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 26, 2016, 08:10:26 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;909950
Chirine,

I have a question about magic weapons. In EPT there is a section on rolling up magical weapons, with special abilities, ego, intelligence, alignment, special characteristics, etc. Did Phil have any of these weapons in the game? They seem more D&D, than EPT, IMO (:D)

Shemek

Yes, he did. Karim Missum had one, as I recall - no surprise, there - and Princess Vrisa'a nasty sword was one of these; it was created in S&G, rather then EPT, but it worked the same way. The thing was a sentient being - we never did figure out if it was an AI or a formerly biological entity - and the weapon wasn't actually steel; it was made up of one of the exotic alloys of the ancients. If you looked really, really carefully at the 'edge', you'd see a shimmery grey flicker; the actual edge was an energy weapon in linear form. She could cut through anything with it, and often did.

It did have an attitude; it liked killing, and we thought that it was because it was powered by absorbing the life energy of beings that Vrisa used it on. It worked anywhere, even in 'dead zones'. It was also very, very ancient, and seemed to date back to the Time of Darkeness when a lot of wizards did a lot of very risky things.

You are correct about this being a 'D&D thing', rather then an 'EPT thing'. This is one of the Gygax-Arneson artifacts in the game, as both of these worthy gentlemen insisted that such things needed to be in a fantasy role-playing game. It's been very interesting comparing "Beyond This Point Be Dragons" with EPT, as a result. Personally, I like having the option of making this kind of artifact; you do get (all too many) of the Undying (gonzo) Wizards who love to try their hands at this sort of thing to impress people at parties. (Have I mentioned how hard I try to avoid the Undying Wizards?)

You can also get 'magical' armor; my battle suit is one such, as it's actually a magical artifact that helps focus my innate abilities into something pretty powerful. (The Livyani do nice work. Expensive, but nice work.) Got a nasty mace, too; +5 +5, and it did come in handy when I had to get up close and personal. No ego or intelligence; just something to bash the foe with.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 26, 2016, 08:37:06 PM
Part of the whole "gonzo wizards making weird magic shit" comes, of course, from Dying Earth, where the "wizards" considered themselves savants who were forever experimenting and trying to regain the lost knowledge of the ancients (sound familiar?)

"Cursed" weapons and nasty magic items were the result of oopsies in the lab.  Get a syllable wrong, your sword is -1 instead of +1.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 26, 2016, 09:01:13 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;909876

Greentongue is very accommodating to us lurkers, I assure you.

It has come to my attention that Group Z is exclusive.
I had thought that everyone could see Group 0 and Z.
Opps.  
Nobody had mentioned it before.  :(
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 26, 2016, 09:52:11 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;909944
Ain't that the truth!

(As an aside, I've been offered an option on Pete Galylord's Ancients. I'm pretty heartbroken over it; I don't think I can make a decent offer, but I'd love to see these figures get used again. They've been sitting in a box for ages, I guess. Scrubys, too, and I think 40mm; the infamous elephant isn't there; Pete seems to have disposed of it about twenty years ago. Advice?)


It depends on if anybody else is interested.  But yeah, cash is hard to come by.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on July 27, 2016, 05:46:46 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;909937
RE: the First Founder
have you looked in the Blue Room Archive?


I did look it up and the only interesting note I found is from Bob Alberti. He describes what happened in one of the games he experienced. Who was GMing is unclear.

It's here: http://www.echnology.net/blueroom/blueroom.php?action=4&messid=413&srchstr=first%20founder&searchtype=

It's actually mostly about the First Founder's home, in this case a self-healing/fixing house.
Anyway, although inspiring and exciting, nothing quite official it seems.

RE: magical weapons. I too thought it not very Tekumelani, until I remembered that the entities and people who fought on Dormoron plain (to take one example) surely had amazing, terrifying, powerful weapons and devices at hand. Human and nonhuman sorcerers would then probably be interested in emulating such terrible tools of destruction, at their own level of course, out of curiosity and, yes, sheer egotism (as in "I made this, and you didn't. boo.")
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on July 27, 2016, 12:16:16 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;909941
Well, you're very welcome; it's one of the books that Phil would use as his own inspiration and references. At the risk of more muttering, may I also suggest the Taschen 'Icons' editions of Piranesi and Napoleon's "Description of Egypt", and Tatiana Proskuriakoff's "An Album of Maya Architecture"? Phil knew the lady, who was one of the people who finally translated the Mayan glyphs...

These books are some of the 'Ur-books' that Phil was inspired by - he owned a number of them - and which he showed to us to illustrate how he viewed his creation. (There's a lot of the Pharaohs and the Maya in Tekumel; I'd like to think they'd be pleased.)

I shall certainly check those out, the Catherwood book just arrived about 10 minutes ago BTW, along with Jonathan Sumption's Vol 4 of the history of the Hundred Years' War, so I have some serious reading to get on with.

EDIT: Found the Piranesi Taschen on Amazon UK for 1p + P&P. The Album of Maya Architecture is a bit more expensive but looks pretty good...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 27, 2016, 03:44:27 PM
Huh, somehow I'd missed a reply from Chirine? I wonder how that happened.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;909714
From AsenRG:
I'm fine with that type of PCs, as you know:). The advice was for "let's kill children because NPCs are there for that" types...
Understood. I've killed a lot of they type of player, over the years, and I'm about to do the same to the players in the group where I'm playing the bandit chief. The goody-two-shoes-Lawful-Good meatballs killed a bunch of our people after they'd surrendered - and offered ransoms - so I am going to have to take some action to remind them that this is a business operation and not some sort of stupid Holy Crusade. I'll make them an offer that they can't refuse, and if they don't they'll be sleeping with the fishes.

Yes, and Gronan's advice is pretty good as well. Violent Disneyland ain't an attitude that's worth pandering to, give them a lesson to remember:)!

Quote
Understood; I've just gotten tired of being bitched at, and my work denounced as being 'politically incorrect'. Modesty bars on one-inch tall figures? Really? I mean, I understand why a manufacturer would do it, just not the need for it.

Then again, of course, after having been married for over twenty-five years, the mystery is off.

My answer has lately shifted to "if it bothers you, get lost". For full-page pictures.
If it's about inch-tall figures, that would be my advice only when I'm in a good mood.

Quote
All right, it's funny. And I still get hassled for my views on gaming, which is why I don't let just any thudpucker in the door any more. I suspect it's something in the water here locally, and the usual Internet need-to-be-right on line.

I don't know, but the water explanation doesn't sound unlikely, lately...
And the "need to be right" doesn't help it, either.

Quote
Could not agree more; Braunsteins are inherently improvisational in the very nature. I just do them, and not worry about 'rules'. ("Too hand-wavy", "Too loosy-goosy", Well-Known Internet Gamer-commentators say...)

Uncle, I recently started a freeform game. The system is "describe it, it happens and the referee tell you what happens next, oh and don't be immature or a dick".
Remind the Well-Known Internet Gamer-commentators that such games exist. Also remind them that this style of play is more popular by orders of magnitude than D&D.
Watch them choke on their own bile.
Profit;).
(I call dibs on their shoes and phones, you can keep the rest! And you gain cleaner air in the bargain:p.)

Quote
Great resource, there!!! Very handy for when you run into local groups, as this is what Phil would have used. For all I know, he had a copy - I'll look in the inventory. I am pretty sure he'd read it - some of the chapter headings sound like things he'd said in game sessions...

Check the end of my post, too...;)

Quote from: Greentongue;909957
It has come to my attention that Group Z is exclusive.
I had thought that everyone could see Group 0 and Z.
Opps.  
Nobody had mentioned it before.  :(
=

I didn't know a Group Z exists.
I guess I've got more reading now?

Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));910021
I shall certainly check those out, the Catherwood book just arrived about 10 minutes ago BTW, along with Jonathan Sumption's Vol 4 of the history of the Hundred Years' War, so I have some serious reading to get on with.

EDIT: Found the Piranesi Taschen on Amazon UK for 1p + P&P. The Album of Maya Architecture is a bit more expensive but looks pretty good...

Amazon is nice, but here's some fully legal links to get you started, guys...

http://www.smith.edu/libraries/libs/rarebook/exhibitions/catherwood/index.htm
http://www.casa-catherwood.com/catherwoodinenglish.html
http://www.reed.edu/uxmal/contents.html

Enjoy:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: DavetheLost on July 27, 2016, 05:06:34 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;909714
From AsenRG:
I'm fine with that type of PCs, as you know:). The advice was for "let's kill children because NPCs are there for that" types...
Understood. I've killed a lot of they type of player, over the years, and I'm about to do the same to the players in the group where I'm playing the bandit chief. The goody-two-shoes-Lawful-Good meatballs killed a bunch of our people after they'd surrendered - and offered ransoms - so I am going to have to take some action to remind them that this is a business operation and not some sort of stupid Holy Crusade. I'll make them an offer that they can't refuse, and if they don't they'll be sleeping with the fishes.

Well, I just stop listening to them. Now I wonder whether they're going to achieve the same with most people;).
Understood; I've just gotten tired of being bitched at, and my work denounced as being 'politically incorrect'. Modesty bars on one-inch tall figures? Really? I mean, I understand why a manufacturer would do it, just not the need for it.



I have cured a few murder hoboes of the notion that all NPCs are there for the killing as walking experience point banks. Putting the players on trial for murder can be wicked fun...

As for the modesty bars, there is at least one site selling nice Egyptian type figures that has modesty bars on one picture, none on the one next to it, on the same page! I fail to see the danger to society in little lead nipples anyway. But I am sliding into middle age.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 27, 2016, 05:17:11 PM
Quote from: DavetheLost;910072
I have cured a few murder hoboes of the notion that all NPCs are there for the killing as walking experience point banks. Putting the players on trial for murder can be wicked fun...

As for the modesty bars, there is at least one site selling nice Egyptian type figures that has modesty bars on one picture, none on the one next to it, on the same page! I fail to see the danger to society in little lead nipples anyway. But I am sliding into middle age.

Indeed, are little lead nipples a danger for people who have access to Internet?
According to Forbes, depending on how internet traffic is measured, claims for the share of porn-related traffic vary from 4% to 30% from all traffic on Internet;).
I leave it to you to guess why I'm laughing really hard at modesty bars:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 27, 2016, 06:36:05 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;909951
For me personally this thread sometimes feels like I'm at the above mentioned ping-pong table. It's a pleasure to be a part of. Thank you for taking the time to answer all the questions. I wholeheartedly agree that it's forums like this that keep Tekumel alive, and I'd like to think that were Phil alive he might even be an active member.

Shemek.


You're welcome; what I'm trying to do is give you a sense of what it was like, on all those Thursday nights, when we rolled some dice and had a lot of fun. If I'm doing that for people, then I'm doing what I've loved to do for the past forty years.

(Migawd! Has it really been that long?)

And I'd like to think he'd be here, too... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 27, 2016, 06:36:54 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;909955
Part of the whole "gonzo wizards making weird magic shit" comes, of course, from Dying Earth, where the "wizards" considered themselves savants who were forever experimenting and trying to regain the lost knowledge of the ancients (sound familiar?)

"Cursed" weapons and nasty magic items were the result of oopsies in the lab.  Get a syllable wrong, your sword is -1 instead of +1.


Very true, and very good points!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 27, 2016, 06:49:12 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;909962
It depends on if anybody else is interested.  But yeah, cash is hard to come by.


From what I gather, nobody's interested as these are 40mm Scrubys from the early 1970s; there is, I am told by a Leading Local Retailer, no market whatsoever for used miniatures; he's had a box of very nice vintage Ral Partha figures in a Chessex case sitting on one of his shelves for about a year, and also several very nicely painted Warhammer armies in a display case that have been sitting for even longer. The 'collector market' might be interested, if only because of the Dave Arneson 'first fantasy game' connection, but that's about it.

My thought had been that it might be a lot of fun to replay that early 1970s Arneson game, letting people be Ken Fletcher, Dave Megarry (yes, that Dave Megarry), Cliff Olllia, and Pete; I'd need to get another elephant, but I have a Crocodile Games pachyderm that I can dress up for the occasion; I also have a phaser to slip to the Druid. But then, I got to thinking - where would I run such a game, and get any players? The local miniatures people would all recoil in horror - "Fantasy! Ick! Ick! Ptui! Ptui!" and the local RPG people would all ignore it because it wasn't pathfinder or D&D. So, the FLGS and the local game convention seem to be out, leaving Gary Con as the only likely venue to get players for which I could run such an ancient and forgotten game. (Assuming, of course, that I don't get a cease and desist from somebody in Lake Geneva for daring to speak the words "Dave Arneson" within the city limits.)

So, I dunno. I am not at all sure that having a set of unique figures for a unique game would be a good investment. And I'd be worried about sticky fingers, too... :(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 27, 2016, 06:52:12 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;909993
I did look it up and the only interesting note I found is from Bob Alberti. He describes what happened in one of the games he experienced. Who was GMing is unclear.

It's here: http://www.echnology.net/blueroom/blueroom.php?action=4&messid=413&srchstr=first%20founder&searchtype=

It's actually mostly about the First Founder's home, in this case a self-healing/fixing house.
Anyway, although inspiring and exciting, nothing quite official it seems.

RE: magical weapons. I too thought it not very Tekumelani, until I remembered that the entities and people who fought on Dormoron plain (to take one example) surely had amazing, terrifying, powerful weapons and devices at hand. Human and nonhuman sorcerers would then probably be interested in emulating such terrible tools of destruction, at their own level of course, out of curiosity and, yes, sheer egotism (as in "I made this, and you didn't. boo.")

Well, Bob was usually reporting what was going on in Phil's campaign, so I'd bet that Phil was the GM.

Agreed with you about the 'magic' weapons - good reasoning!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 27, 2016, 07:07:15 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;909993
Anyway, although inspiring and exciting, nothing quite official it seems.

I've extracted this sentence, if that's all right, as I think it's something that I'd like to speak to.

What  is - and I'm not trying to be difficult here, I'm genuinely curious as to what people think - 'official' or 'canon' in relation to Tekumel and Phil?

I've been hearing these words used in discussions for literally decades; the reason why Ken and I did the 'Seal of Approval' on our products was simply because people seemed to really need to be reassured that whatever they were looking at had been approved by Phil. Most of the time, he'd look at something, say "That's fine by me," and promptly move on. To be frank, he just wasn't all that interested in our products as they had very little relevance to 'Story Time With Uncle Phil' on Thursday nights.

I take a different approach, myself; there's what Phil wrote about, talked about, and did in his games - that's 'primary' Tekumel. Then there's us players who gamed with him, and wrote or illustrated what we saw and heard - that's 'first order' Tekumel. They you have the people who listened to us (and I include talking to Phil in this, too), and did their own publications/artwork/maps/campaigns - that's 'second order' Tekumel. I use all the Tekumel materials that I can get my hands on; I do compare things from 'third parties' to what Phil did, and govern myself accordingly.

I am, I have been told by the Tekumel Foundation, quote "The Greatest Living Authority On Tekumel"; I don't know if that's accurate or not - me, I think I just happen to have a good memory and lots of files and stuff - and I've been asked repeatedly if my book "To Serve the Petal Throne" is an Official, Canon object. I don't know if I can answer that, as the thing is (from my perspective, anyway) simply a 'tidied up' of our adventures - 'tidied up' in the sense that I try to give the backstories behind our antics - and more 'fan fiction' then anything else because it's being told from my personal perspective as a player-character. It's not a transcript of our game sessions - somebody else can to that, thank you - but a storyteller in the market place.


Thoughts? Comments? I'm genuinely curious as to what people think about this...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 27, 2016, 07:08:20 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;909993

Anyway, although inspiring and exciting, nothing quite official it seems.


I've extracted this sentence, if that's all right, as I think it's something that I'd like to speak to.

What  is - and I'm not trying to be difficult here, I'm genuinely curious as to what people think - 'official' or 'canon' in relation to Tekumel and Phil?

I've been hearing these words used in discussions for literally decades; the reason why Ken and I did the 'Seal of Approval' on our products was simply because people seemed to really need to be reassured that whatever they were looking at had been approved by Phil. Most of the time, he'd look at something, say "That's fine by me," and promptly move on. To be frank, he just wasn't all that interested in our products as they had very little relevance to 'Story Time With Uncle Phil' on Thursday nights.

I take a different approach, myself; there's what Phil wrote about, talked about, and did in his games - that's 'primary' Tekumel. Then there's us players who gamed with him, and wrote or illustrated what we saw and heard - that's 'first order' Tekumel. They you have the people who listened to us (and I include talking to Phil in this, too), and did their own publications/artwork/maps/campaigns - that's 'second order' Tekumel. I use all the Tekumel materials that I can get my hands on; I do compare things from 'third parties' to what Phil did, and govern myself accordingly.

I am, I have been told by the Tekumel Foundation, quote "The Greatest Living Authority On Tekumel"; I don't know if that's accurate or not - me, I think I just happen to have a good memory and lots of files and stuff - and I've been asked repeatedly if my book "To Serve the Petal Throne" is an Official, Canon object. I don't know if I can answer that, as the thing is (from my perspective, anyway) simply a 'tidied up' of our adventures - 'tidied up' in the sense that I try to give the backstories behind our antics - and more 'fan fiction' then anything else because it's being told from my personal perspective as a player-character. It's not a transcript of our game sessions - somebody else can to that, thank you - but a storyteller in the market place.


Thoughts? Comments? I'm genuinely curious as to what people think about this...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 27, 2016, 07:12:16 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));910021
I shall certainly check those out, the Catherwood book just arrived about 10 minutes ago BTW, along with Jonathan Sumption's Vol 4 of the history of the Hundred Years' War, so I have some serious reading to get on with.

EDIT: Found the Piranesi Taschen on Amazon UK for 1p + P&P. The Album of Maya Architecture is a bit more expensive but looks pretty good...


Wonderful!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 27, 2016, 07:22:39 PM
From AsenRG:
Huh, somehow I'd missed a reply from Chirine? I wonder how that happened.
My irregular Internet connection and equally irregular posting schedule, most likely.

Yes, and Gronan's advice is pretty good as well. Violent Disneyland ain't an attitude that's worth pandering to, give them a lesson to remember:)!Agreed. They are going to get a lesson, if I have my druthers. They may not like it, but they may learn from it.

My answer has lately shifted to "if it bothers you, get lost". For full-page pictures.
If it's about inch-tall figures, that would be my advice only when I'm in a good mood.

Understood. I'm just astounded that little lead people are so controversial.

I don't know, but the water explanation doesn't sound unlikely, lately...
And the "need to be right" doesn't help it, either.

Twin Cities fandom is famous for being riven by feuds. This is the only fan community where there was an official "Finger-pointing and Jeering" Committee that was part of the local convention committee, dedicated to bad-mouthing and sabotaging the people who were actually running the event. That group, and their convention, are now history. And largely forgotten history, at that.

Uncle, I recently started a freeform game. The system is "describe it, it happens and the referee tell you what happens next, oh and don't be immature or a dick".
Remind the Well-Known Internet Gamer-commentators that such games exist. Also remind them that this style of play is more popular by orders of magnitude than D&D.
Watch them choke on their own bile.
Profit;).
(I call dibs on their shoes and phones, you can keep the rest! And you gain cleaner air in the bargain:p.)

I don;t talk to people like that, anymore, but if I do I'll wipe off the residue before I pass along the loot.

Check the end of my post, too...;)
I did; very nice!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 27, 2016, 07:25:33 PM
Quote from: DavetheLost;910072
I have cured a few murder hoboes of the notion that all NPCs are there for the killing as walking experience point banks. Putting the players on trial for murder can be wicked fun...

As for the modesty bars, there is at least one site selling nice Egyptian type figures that has modesty bars on one picture, none on the one next to it, on the same page! I fail to see the danger to society in little lead nipples anyway. But I am sliding into middle age.


Agreed. Being an Imperial official with the powers of High, Middle, and Low Justice does indeed have some nice aspects to it... :)

Same here. These are little miniatures, and nothing else. And they're in quite well documented historical costumes, to. So, what's the outrage all about?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 27, 2016, 07:27:11 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;910075
Indeed, are little lead nipples a danger for people who have access to Internet?
According to Forbes, depending on how internet traffic is measured, claims for the share of porn-related traffic vary from 4% to 30% from all traffic on Internet;).
I leave it to you to guess why I'm laughing really hard at modesty bars:D!


Yep. There's nothing you probably can't see on any beach in Europe - or in the US, for that matter. Let alone on the easy-to-access Web.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 27, 2016, 07:40:35 PM
"Modesty Bars!  Now with 40% more outrage in every bite!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 27, 2016, 10:11:18 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;910101
"Modesty Bars!  Now with 40% more outrage in every bite!"


:D  :D

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 27, 2016, 10:26:31 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;910095
I've extracted this sentence, if that's all right, as I think it's something that I'd like to speak to.

What  is - and I'm not trying to be difficult here, I'm genuinely curious as to what people think - 'official' or 'canon' in relation to Tekumel and Phil?

I've been hearing these words used in discussions for literally decades; the reason why Ken and I did the 'Seal of Approval' on our products was simply because people seemed to really need to be reassured that whatever they were looking at had been approved by Phil. Most of the time, he'd look at something, say "That's fine by me," and promptly move on. To be frank, he just wasn't all that interested in our products as they had very little relevance to 'Story Time With Uncle Phil' on Thursday nights.

I take a different approach, myself; there's what Phil wrote about, talked about, and did in his games - that's 'primary' Tekumel. Then there's us players who gamed with him, and wrote or illustrated what we saw and heard - that's 'first order' Tekumel. They you have the people who listened to us (and I include talking to Phil in this, too), and did their own publications/artwork/maps/campaigns - that's 'second order' Tekumel. I use all the Tekumel materials that I can get my hands on; I do compare things from 'third parties' to what Phil did, and govern myself accordingly.

I am, I have been told by the Tekumel Foundation, quote "The Greatest Living Authority On Tekumel"; I don't know if that's accurate or not - me, I think I just happen to have a good memory and lots of files and stuff - and I've been asked repeatedly if my book "To Serve the Petal Throne" is an Official, Canon object. I don't know if I can answer that, as the thing is (from my perspective, anyway) simply a 'tidied up' of our adventures - 'tidied up' in the sense that I try to give the backstories behind our antics - and more 'fan fiction' then anything else because it's being told from my personal perspective as a player-character. It's not a transcript of our game sessions - somebody else can to that, thank you - but a storyteller in the market place.


Thoughts? Comments? I'm genuinely curious as to what people think about this...


Personally, I think that "canon" or "official" are only really useful if a GM wants to maintain some type continuity with his game and the published material, i.e., novels. Your breakdown of the various levels of Tekumel is great, and is a good rule of thumb when trying to fit something into the big picture. For what it's worth, I would classify your book as "Tekumel Canon." You can't get any closer to source, in my opinion.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 28, 2016, 12:39:49 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;909934
The good news is that the guy in charge of my people got killed for trying to take on heavy cavalry with light infantry, in the open with no cover. Saves me an execution for being stupid.

Didn't we used to call that 'self-correcting behavior'?


Quote from: chirine ba kal;909934
Yeah, I said the same thing when I heard about the incident. From what I gather, the party did discuss what to do with the prisoners, then killed them mostly because they couldn't think of anything better to do with them. About all it got them was a bad reputation and cheesed off the rest of the staff, so it's going to be hard to keep everybody from retaliating. We'll see, I suppose.

You know, your point about "not used to facing live opponents" is a good one.  And I have to admit I think that computer games are responsible for a lot of that.  In a computer game your choices are incredibly limited.  Usually you have to kill your way through the game.  Only rarely do you actually have a chance to parley with a hostile agent, and even then your dialog choices are very limited, usually only 3 choices or so.

So then you come into this world of the table top where you can try anything, but all you've been taught to do is stab cardboard cutouts for easy treasure and XP.

And because of the limits of computer game AI the enemies act in ways that are downright stupid in real life.  Number one example is what's called "pulling" a bad guy.  Say there's a group of guards; you get close to the one on the fringe and he will move to attack you and you can lure him away from the group and kill him to death for his stupidity.

Then players who have been trained to do this play on the tabletop, and the first guard who spots them falls back and sounds the alarm and a squad of guards appears and swords the players to death, stwikes them woughly, and thwows them to the fwoor.

Tactics are dying and I don't know what to do about it.  People get killed and they DON'T REALIZE THEY ARE DOING IT TO THEMSELVES even if I try to explain it.

See, folks, tactics are REAL.  Many moons ago I started getting more deeply into historical miniatures games.  I started borrowing books from Chirine and our mutual friend David about World War 2.  So I read and read, and after a year or so I realized something astonishing.

The Germans won most of their campaigns with Panzer IIs and a smattering of Panzer III.

All the big glitzy German stuff, the Panther, the Tigers, the Jagdpanther, etc, etc.... all that shiny neeto keeno stuff that the German players love to field... all that showed up AFTER THE GERMANS STARTED LOSING.  Now, you could argue about the Tiger I, I suppose, but the Germans had already gotten mauled by the T-34 in Russia by then.

So... the big German victories in France and the Desert had nothing to do with hardware.  It was then and there that I had the realization, to quote the late John M. Ford once again, "Tactics are real!"

That, by the way, dear ones, is why your uncle Chirine found himself buzzing around the desert like a gang of demented flies in gobs of Pz I and II while being chased by that horrible juggernaut, the M3 Lee.  Not because of sadism on my part (okay, maybe a bit) but because he was one of the best, possibly THE best, tactician I knew.  I wanted to see how the hell the Germans did it, and Chirine seemed the most likely candidate for being able to pull it off.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on July 28, 2016, 04:04:06 AM
Related to modesty bars.

One thing springs to mind is that if a web site includes pictures of figures unclothed then someone somewhere is going to label it NSFW in a blacklist and that is going to be use to block access to the said site from some work computers.

The unrelated bit.

Recently on G+ someone posted asking about a game and its suitability for playing with youngsters as it contained risque pictures. He got the usual 'Southern US prudes can't tell us what to do' from the Euro contingent. He responded that it wasn't him that was a prude but he couldn't have these kids (no age specified but probably early teens from context) exposed to non Christian religions as their parents would go gaga.

Pat Puling's fan club is alive and well living in the southern US.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on July 28, 2016, 06:18:39 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;910095
Thoughts? Comments? I'm genuinely curious as to what people think about this...

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;910123
Personally, I think that "canon" or "official" are only really useful if a GM wants to maintain some type continuity with his game and the published material, i.e., novels.

Shemek makes an excellent point.

I actually hesitated before leaving that line about this not being canon in.

That term sort of kills the possibility of Tekumel as a playable fantasy world, as it suggests that one cannot run it unless one does it the manner in which Barker did it.
I actually love the "non-canon" stuff, that is, the "'second order' stuff", as Chirine puts it. Those reports, maps, ideas, etc. show what Tekumel is and can be around an RPG table: alive, fun, full of wild situations, scary, etc. The 'second' and further orders indeed show that people outside of Barker's circle have gotten hold of the world and made it their own, thus saving it from complete excitation.

I may be wrong on this, but it seems to me that talks of what's canon or not are not common in, say, the Glorantha community, or any other deep fantasy world community. The fans of these settings seem to enjoy their world of choice and share their experiences of it. To my knowledge Tekumel is the only one where canon-talk is recurrent.

And I made the mistake of bringing it up ... again!
Bad Neshm, bad!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 28, 2016, 07:08:05 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;910135

You know, your point about "not used to facing live opponents" is a good one.  And I have to admit I think that computer games are responsible for a lot of that.  In a computer game your choices are incredibly limited.  Usually you have to kill your way through the game.  Only rarely do you actually have a chance to parley with a hostile agent, and even then your dialog choices are very limited, usually only 3 choices or so.


While I think that it is the general conditioning of people to accept "Pick from these pre-selected choices." I believe this is also the reason that people are very uncomfortable with not having "a rule for that".
These days we need to know "the rules" and "what are my choices".
Those that don't follow The Rules are ostracized.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 28, 2016, 07:13:40 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;910187
That term sort of kills the possibility of Tekumel as a playable fantasy world, as it suggests that one cannot run it unless one does it the manner in which Barker did it.

Tekumel has very diligent Canon Police ... with lawyers. There have been several examples in this very thread of encounters with them.
While not as powerful as the OAL, they do seem to think they are, in their own minds.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: DavetheLost on July 28, 2016, 07:57:59 AM
In the opinion of this heretic far too many fandoms are overly obsessed with canon and midrash. In gaming it is not unique to Tekumel. People will scour the most obscure publications to "prove" that they are the standard bearers of the One True Way and everyone else is guilty of BadWrongFun.

This has caused me to be much less active in games that have strong fandoms and a canon of resources about the background. The endless arguments about how many Orcs can defeat a legion of Klingons just cease to be fun. It's elfgames not religion.

What I find refreshing about Respected Clan Elder Chirine's thread is that he is saying "This is how we did it with Phil, and this is how I do it now," while still leaving room for us to develop our own ways of gaming on Tekumel. I hope it would not prove fatal to our cordial relationships if I were to say that on my Tekumel there are bands of raiding Tharks and Warhoons employing outsize Hlyss as mounts, Thoats being not an option due to the lack of the ochre moss of Barsoom on which they feed. Not that I am seriously proposing this, but it is the sort of fantasy I grew up with. "Do what is fun!"

The Legion of Great Stuffiness and Superiority about All Things Tekumel and Looking Down Their Noses at the Mere Idea that Unwashed and Uneducated Pond Slime such as Yourself Could Even Dream of Playing Tekumel Without Doing So Exclusively in Tsolyanu almost completely put me off this wonderful world. Pre-internet I had EPT and Swords & Glory and it was good. Then I discovered the would be OAL...

Then I found Chirine Ba Kal and discovered that Tekumel could be fun again.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on July 28, 2016, 09:12:57 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;910095
I've extracted this sentence, if that's all right, as I think it's something that I'd like to speak to.

What  is - and I'm not trying to be difficult here, I'm genuinely curious as to what people think - 'official' or 'canon' in relation to Tekumel and Phil?

I've been hearing these words used in discussions for literally decades; the reason why Ken and I did the 'Seal of Approval' on our products was simply because people seemed to really need to be reassured that whatever they were looking at had been approved by Phil. Most of the time, he'd look at something, say "That's fine by me," and promptly move on. To be frank, he just wasn't all that interested in our products as they had very little relevance to 'Story Time With Uncle Phil' on Thursday nights.

I take a different approach, myself; there's what Phil wrote about, talked about, and did in his games - that's 'primary' Tekumel. Then there's us players who gamed with him, and wrote or illustrated what we saw and heard - that's 'first order' Tekumel. They you have the people who listened to us (and I include talking to Phil in this, too), and did their own publications/artwork/maps/campaigns - that's 'second order' Tekumel. I use all the Tekumel materials that I can get my hands on; I do compare things from 'third parties' to what Phil did, and govern myself accordingly.

I am, I have been told by the Tekumel Foundation, quote "The Greatest Living Authority On Tekumel"; I don't know if that's accurate or not - me, I think I just happen to have a good memory and lots of files and stuff - and I've been asked repeatedly if my book "To Serve the Petal Throne" is an Official, Canon object. I don't know if I can answer that, as the thing is (from my perspective, anyway) simply a 'tidied up' of our adventures - 'tidied up' in the sense that I try to give the backstories behind our antics - and more 'fan fiction' then anything else because it's being told from my personal perspective as a player-character. It's not a transcript of our game sessions - somebody else can to that, thank you - but a storyteller in the market place.


Thoughts? Comments? I'm genuinely curious as to what people think about this...
For my part, all I can say about that is that I don't care which material is "official". I'm sure some people (that you can think of, I suspect) wish it mattered; but it doesn't, and I don't care whether it's official:).
In the end, we are all humans. MARB was a very talented person with rich experience and background, but not even him was the be-all end-all expert on setting building.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;910097
From AsenRG:
Huh, somehow I'd missed a reply from Chirine? I wonder how that happened.
My irregular Internet connection and equally irregular posting schedule, most likely.
I suspect it's more like "the button for checking new posts doesn't work nearly as well on a mobile device";).

Quote
Agreed. They are going to get a lesson, if I have my druthers. They may not like it, but they may learn from it.
They'd better do, or it will be just as unpleasant, but with more chances of being repeated.

Quote
Understood. I'm just astounded that little lead people are so controversial.
They're not. People are just freaking out over inconsequalities.

Quote
Twin Cities fandom is famous for being riven by feuds. This is the only fan community where there was an official "Finger-pointing and Jeering" Committee that was part of the local convention committee, dedicated to bad-mouthing and sabotaging the people who were actually running the event. That group, and their convention, are now history. And largely forgotten history, at that.
OK, you persuaded me. It should be the water:D!

Quote
I don;t talk to people like that, anymore, but if I do I'll wipe off the residue before I pass along the loot.
Thank you, Uncle! You're nice as always.

Quote
I did; very nice!
Glad you approve.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;910099
Yep. There's nothing you probably can't see on any beach in Europe - or in the US, for that matter. Let alone on the easy-to-access Web.
As I said, funny people.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;910101
"Modesty Bars!  Now with 40% more outrage in every bite!"
:D
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;910135
Tactics are dying and I don't know what to do about it.  People get killed and they DON'T REALIZE THEY ARE DOING IT TO THEMSELVES even if I try to explain it.

See, folks, tactics are REAL.  Many moons ago I started getting more deeply into historical miniatures games.  I started borrowing books from Chirine and our mutual friend David about World War 2.  So I read and read, and after a year or so I realized something astonishing.

The Germans won most of their campaigns with Panzer IIs and a smattering of Panzer III.

All the big glitzy German stuff, the Panther, the Tigers, the Jagdpanther, etc, etc.... all that shiny neeto keeno stuff that the German players love to field... all that showed up AFTER THE GERMANS STARTED LOSING.  Now, you could argue about the Tiger I, I suppose, but the Germans had already gotten mauled by the T-34 in Russia by then.

So... the big German victories in France and the Desert had nothing to do with hardware.  It was then and there that I had the realization, to quote the late John M. Ford once again, "Tactics are real!"
Well, they are. But while not all tactics are equal...a simple, not entirely decisive tactic practiced against "live" opponents trumps all the tactics practised against the air.
So, I don't know. Maybe we should just kick people in games until they realize how important tactics are?
(Non-RPG computer games are, amusingly, sometimes/often a better example. If we're facing off in a fighting game or a strategy game, say, DoA5:LR, you might play with the reflexes and rules knowledge of the highest difficulty level of the computer has - much faster than a human player. But if your tactics are predictable, and I face you with my array of tricks, you're going to learn about the usefulness of tactics real, real fast.
Of course, I kinda doubt your tactics would be predictable, Gronan - that was just an example;)).

Quote
That, by the way, dear ones, is why your uncle Chirine found himself buzzing around the desert like a gang of demented flies in gobs of Pz I and II while being chased by that horrible juggernaut, the M3 Lee.  Not because of sadism on my part (okay, maybe a bit) but because he was one of the best, possibly THE best, tactician I knew.  I wanted to see how the hell the Germans did it, and Chirine seemed the most likely candidate for being able to pull it off.
:D
OK, that was sneaky from your side.

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;910163
Recently on G+ someone posted asking about a game and its suitability for playing with youngsters as it contained risque pictures. He got the usual 'Southern US prudes can't tell us what to do' from the Euro contingent. He responded that it wasn't him that was a prude but he couldn't have these kids (no age specified but probably early teens from context) exposed to non Christian religions as their parents would go gaga.

Pat Puling's fan club is alive and well living in the southern US.
Oh, so THAT was the great uproarious laughter I heard from everywhere? It makes sense that since the EU crowd is everywhere around me, it would seem to me to be "coming from everywhere":D!

Quote from: DavetheLost;910208
In the opinion of this heretic far too many fandoms are overly obsessed with canon and midrash. In gaming it is not unique to Tekumel. People will scour the most obscure publications to "prove" that they are the standard bearers of the One True Way and everyone else is guilty of BadWrongFun.
Count me in with the heretical opinion;).

Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 28, 2016, 10:59:29 AM
Quote from: DavetheLost;910072
I fail to see the danger to society in little lead nipples anyway. But I am sliding into middle age.
Someone could lose an eye?

Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;910187
I may be wrong on this, but it seems to me that talks of what's canon or not are not common in, say, the Glorantha community, or any other deep fantasy world community.
You could not be more wrong. Lots of canon discussion about Glorantha. The Gloranthan community uses the term “Gregged” for when some item, event, or bit of mythology is later contradicted (or seems to be contradicted*) by something revealed by Greg Stafford (the creator). Sometimes Greg seems to have Gregged himself, as the controversy over Elmal and Yelmalio demonstrated. One reason I stopped paying attention to the newer material on Glorantha was because of this. Another is that the depth of reading material necessary to understand canon became too deep for me.

* I say “seems” because Stafford is a big believer in presenting subjective information about Glorantha. I get the impression he doesn’t believe there is a single truth about Glorantha. Which would align with my suspicion that he is really a follower (or avatar) of Nysalor.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;910094
What  is - and I'm not trying to be difficult here, I'm genuinely curious as to what people think - 'official' or 'canon' in relation to Tekumel and Phil?
I’m a bit intellectual or academic by temperament and a mathematician by training. So I find the question of what the creator intended interesting and I tend to treat the game world as something that exists, at least as an intellectual construct. So in one sense I think there is (or at least there could or should be) a correct answer to all questions about the customs, geography, history, and origins of a game world. Canon tells me what that answer is from the perspective of the creator (Tekumel or Glorantha) or, in some cases, the intellectual property holder (Star Wars, which has a codification of the various types and levels of canon: movies, TV shows, novels, comic books, game materials, etc.).

Since I’m not a proponent  of Live World styles of play where all GMs and players in many different gaming groups and locations are intended to all be in the same shared world (and when I say, “not a proponent” I mean that I loathe the idea) I believe the effect of canon on any given world run by a specific GM for a specific group of players is and should be limited. I also believe the effect should be most noticeable during the setup of a campaign.

If I want to run a game set on Tekumel (whether I use EPT, Swords and Glory, or Sandy Petersen’s RQ rules for Tekumel, in the set up and preparation I’m going to try to find out what the canon is as part of my preparation and I’m going to use that as is. I may decide to change something, but mostly I’m going to want to run things as is and reflective of canon. If that isn’t appealing than why the hell run something in that setting. There are hundreds of other settings available or if I want, I can make up a setting of my own. I’ve done that before more than a few times.

Once play starts, then it’s my Tekumel and I will expect it to diverge from canon. It may diverge because I invent something to fill a gap in what I know and later find it contradicted by revealed canon. It may diverge because I just don’t like some bit of canon and I think something else is more interesting for me. It may diverge because my players and your players interact with the same people, places, and events and get different outcomes. At that point, intellectually, I look at the various worlds of Tekumel as being on a continuum of variance. One way to think of this is like parallel universes, like the variance levels and worlds in H. Beam Pipers Paratime stories or the Star Trek Mirror Universe.

Now in preparing for a new area or adventure, like say the PCs are part of an embassy going to Livanyu (I may have misspelled that, but hopefully you know the place I mean) I would be likely to go back to look at what the canon is for Livanyu. But once the PCs go there, the major domo for the high muckety muck that I create and play may be quite a different person (figuratively or literally) than the major domo in Barker’s, Chirine’s, or anyone else’s world.

I encounter a similar problem running an historical fiction campaign for Honor+Intrigue. Sometimes I find out facts that contradict stuff I made up or even earlier understandings I had or facts I thought I knew. It’s always a choice whether to adjust the game world to match some new fact of our earth history or to warp history to match the game world. I recently encountered exactly that https://honorandintrigue.blogspot.com/2016/07/plan-of-hotel-dangouleme.html (http://[url)]issue regarding the location and layout of the Hôtel d'Angoulême[/URL] in Paris in my game world vs. its layout and location in the real world.

I’m currently prepping for a possible trip to Orleans by some of the PCs. In the process came across a castle near a location the PCs are likely to investigate. I thought, it might be interesting to have them interact with the owner of the castle. Afterwards I learned that the real world Château de Ferte was built and owned by the family of the Baron Henri de La Ferte-Senneterre. The Baron is an NPC (based on a real person) in my campaign who the PCs know and who knows and respects the PCs. Since that real world fact doesn’t conflict with any fact established in play, than if they go to the castle and the baron or his father is at home, then it’s they whom the PCs shall meet. On the other hand, if I hadn’t come across the information of who the owner of the castle was in the real world, I might have made up the Seigneur de Jeansaypas as the castle holder. And from then on, that would be that.

I like canon, but if I'm the GM, then it's my world, not your world, his world, her world, the world of a bunch of IP lawyers, nor the society of anything.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 28, 2016, 12:03:58 PM
Chirine,

I don't recall if this has been asked before, but could you shed any light on the Temple of the Eye of the World? I recently saw this sight on a Tekumel map and was wondering what it was. Is it related to worship of the One Other, like the Isle of Eyes?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 28, 2016, 12:23:33 PM
Here are my two cents worth on canon and official. As I mentioned in a previous post, when it comes to “canon” and “official” I think that a lot of players are just looking for some type of continuity and convergence with what has been published. For me personally when I talk about canon or official I am referring to general “facts” or “truths”. Tekumel has two moons, Tsolyanu is an empire on the Northern Continent of Tekumel, one of the Emperors of Tsolyanu was called Hirkane, etc.

However, I also realise that many of the players that dogmatically advocate, or pursue, canon and official do so as a means of personal “legitimacy” for their campaign and game. It’s as if they are striving, vicariously, to be co-creators with Phil. I think that by having a “canonical” game of Tekumel these players derive a sense of superiority, and they feel that they have become the authority, and that the game has somehow transcended into something else, and is no longer some mere RPG. It somehow gives them the “right” to be able to wag their fingers and “tut-tut” the ignorant “others” and how they are playing the game all wrong. Unfortunately, I feel that Tekumel is especially inundated with players of this mindset, and has been from the beginning, much to its detriment. The minutia that is singled out as being important in order to properly play Tekumel is quite laughable. At the end of the day is pronunciation really that big of a deal? Really, who cares if a name is pronounced this way or that way? Is it so important in the grand scheme of things? Will it result in an inferior game session if you, as a player, mispronounce Dhichune’s name? Presumably your character will know how to say it correctly and what honorific to use. When and why did it become de-rigour to have a graduate level understanding of the history, customs, and mannerisms of the nations of Tekumel? From what Chirine has told us this type of mind set was certainly not a part of the Thursday Night Game. Somehow, I don’t think Phil gave pop quizzes on the correct usage of glottal stops in Tsolyani grammar and pronunciation, unless he was trying to take the piss out of somebody. At least that’s the impression I get.

I generally just go with the flow. Should a player, for some obscure reason, insist upon an accurate pronunciation, or correct spelling, or a detailed history then I will provide it. Normally, my motto is: "Close enough is good enough" when it comes to this stuff.


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 28, 2016, 03:34:30 PM
Hey All,

Out of curiosity, how do you go about searching threads for a specific topic? For example, I'd like to know what the symbol of the Goddess of the Pale Bone is. I used the search box, but it only indicated that it was in a thread, but not where in the thread (not a specific reference). Thanks in advance.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 28, 2016, 05:27:40 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;910244
Really, who cares if a name is pronounced this way or that way? Is it so important in the grand scheme of things?
I care.

But in just about every game group I've been in or run, there has been one person who can't pronounce things correctly and who often don't remember how to spell things correctly. What they can't pronounce (or spell) may be esoteric names of people, places, and things from a game world, or it may be words in some earthly foreign language, or even words in English* that aren't part of their vernacular. So I'm used to dealing with a lot of mispronunciation.

Does it ruin the game for me? No.  Would I enjoy the game more with correct pronunciation? Without a doubt.

* I realize that English is a foreign language to some of you. If that bugs you...well then you probably are bugged a lot in real life. You can always pretend I said whatever language is native for you instead.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;910244
Really, who cares if a name is pronounced this way or that way? Is it so important in the grand scheme of things?
I care.

But in just about every game group I've been in or run, there has been one person who can't pronounce things correctly and who often don't remember how to spell things correctly. What they can't pronounce (or spell) may be esoteric names of people, places, and things from a game world, or it may be words in some earthly foreign language, or even words in English* that aren't part of their vernacular. So I'm used to dealing with a lot of mispronunciation. Does it ruin the game for me? No.

* I realize that English is a foreign language to some of you. If that bugs you...well then you probably are bugged a lot in real life. You can always pretend I said whatever language is native for you instead.


Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;910273
Out of curiosity, how do you go about searching threads for a specific topic? For example, I'd like to know what the symbol of the Goddess of the Pale Bone is. I used the search box, but it only indicated that it was in a thread, but not where in the thread (not a specific reference).
Choose Advanced Search and tell it to show “Posts” instead of "Threads."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 28, 2016, 06:18:20 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;910101
"Modesty Bars!  Now with 40% more outrage in every bite!"


:)

Memo to self: must trademark that name, and go into the candy business. I'll make a fortune.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 28, 2016, 06:25:04 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;910135
Didn't we used to call that 'self-correcting behavior'?

You know, your point about "not used to facing live opponents" is a good one.  And I have to admit I think that computer games are responsible for a lot of that.  In a computer game your choices are incredibly limited.  Usually you have to kill your way through the game.  Only rarely do you actually have a chance to parley with a hostile agent, and even then your dialog choices are very limited, usually only 3 choices or so.

So then you come into this world of the table top where you can try anything, but all you've been taught to do is stab cardboard cutouts for easy treasure and XP.

And because of the limits of computer game AI the enemies act in ways that are downright stupid in real life.  Number one example is what's called "pulling" a bad guy.  Say there's a group of guards; you get close to the one on the fringe and he will move to attack you and you can lure him away from the group and kill him to death for his stupidity.

Then players who have been trained to do this play on the tabletop, and the first guard who spots them falls back and sounds the alarm and a squad of guards appears and swords the players to death, stwikes them woughly, and thwows them to the fwoor.

Tactics are dying and I don't know what to do about it.  People get killed and they DON'T REALIZE THEY ARE DOING IT TO THEMSELVES even if I try to explain it.

See, folks, tactics are REAL.  Many moons ago I started getting more deeply into historical miniatures games.  I started borrowing books from Chirine and our mutual friend David about World War 2.  So I read and read, and after a year or so I realized something astonishing.

The Germans won most of their campaigns with Panzer IIs and a smattering of Panzer III.

All the big glitzy German stuff, the Panther, the Tigers, the Jagdpanther, etc, etc.... all that shiny neeto keeno stuff that the German players love to field... all that showed up AFTER THE GERMANS STARTED LOSING.  Now, you could argue about the Tiger I, I suppose, but the Germans had already gotten mauled by the T-34 in Russia by then.

So... the big German victories in France and the Desert had nothing to do with hardware.  It was then and there that I had the realization, to quote the late John M. Ford once again, "Tactics are real!"

That, by the way, dear ones, is why your uncle Chirine found himself buzzing around the desert like a gang of demented flies in gobs of Pz I and II while being chased by that horrible juggernaut, the M3 Lee.  Not because of sadism on my part (okay, maybe a bit) but because he was one of the best, possibly THE best, tactician I knew.  I wanted to see how the hell the Germans did it, and Chirine seemed the most likely candidate for being able to pull it off.


All very good points; we'll see if my opponents have learned anything from our conversations with them. The proof, as they say, will be in the pudding.

I thought that that particular game went pretty sell; the M3 has a MightyBoomBoomGun, so beloved of gamers, but it's in a casemate. The 37mm on top is in a turret, but when I had the Pz I tootling around raising dust storms, the British player got so wrapped up in shooting at the nimble little pest that he completely forgot to keep an eye on the ridge on his off side. The Pz IIs had a field day after they got behind the M3s; the armor isn't all that great there, and the 20mm autoguns mixed very nicely (from my point of view, of course) with all that gasoline...

As I recall, you ran out of cotton to use as smoke... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 28, 2016, 06:38:46 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;910163
Related to modesty bars.

One thing springs to mind is that if a web site includes pictures of figures unclothed then someone somewhere is going to label it NSFW in a blacklist and that is going to be use to block access to the said site from some work computers.

The unrelated bit.

Recently on G+ someone posted asking about a game and its suitability for playing with youngsters as it contained risque pictures. He got the usual 'Southern US prudes can't tell us what to do' from the Euro contingent. He responded that it wasn't him that was a prude but he couldn't have these kids (no age specified but probably early teens from context) exposed to non Christian religions as their parents would go gaga.

Pat Puling's fan club is alive and well living in the southern US.


Good points - I lived through Pat Pulling.

Interestingly, I had my brother in a while back, accompanied by my 13 year-old niece. She was fascinated by all the game stuff in the basement, and asked all sorts of very good questions about Tekumel; she asked about being able to play in a game that I'd run, and I deferred to her father - who has copies of EPT, etc. at home - and he was of the opinion that he'd suggest that she wait a couple of years. What I found fascinating was that she fully accepted that, as she trusted her dad and uncle to give her good advice; she's looking forward to a 'family game', and I'm looking forward to running it.

On a similar note, I was talking to my brother-in-law, who happens to be an evangelical Christian pastor, while visiting him, my sister, and their family. We were talking about RPGs, and some of the kids asked about playing in a game. I thought we were headed into shoal waters, but my brother-in-law let the family know that he thought that it was a great idea - he and my sister have no objections to RPGs in general, and the only stipulation that they had for me was that I respect their views on things for their kids; they especially mentioned that they thought an Ancient Egyptian game would be a lot of fun. They, and their kids, had no issues with little lead people in various states of dress - they fully endorsed the idea of historically accurate people, and their only proviso was that I had to do the research and do the various figures in the very best way I could; Moses, should he appear, had to be in proper Israelite costume, with none of this Hollywood Biblical stuff. Oh, and I'd better get all those Egyptian Gods and Goddeses right - the kids are very well educated, and will be able to spot my fudging anything a mile off...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 28, 2016, 06:50:22 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;910187
Shemek makes an excellent point.

I actually hesitated before leaving that line about this not being canon in.

That term sort of kills the possibility of Tekumel as a playable fantasy world, as it suggests that one cannot run it unless one does it the manner in which Barker did it.
I actually love the "non-canon" stuff, that is, the "'second order' stuff", as Chirine puts it. Those reports, maps, ideas, etc. show what Tekumel is and can be around an RPG table: alive, fun, full of wild situations, scary, etc. The 'second' and further orders indeed show that people outside of Barker's circle have gotten hold of the world and made it their own, thus saving it from complete excitation.

I may be wrong on this, but it seems to me that talks of what's canon or not are not common in, say, the Glorantha community, or any other deep fantasy world community. The fans of these settings seem to enjoy their world of choice and share their experiences of it. To my knowledge Tekumel is the only one where canon-talk is recurrent.

And I made the mistake of bringing it up ... again!
Bad Neshm, bad!


No problem; I'm just trying to get my head around the idea of 'canon', as all I know about the term is from my time hanging around with the Baker Street Irregulars. (I'm so old, I always thought that when people were talking about 'Holmes' I thought they meant the detective...)

I agree with you; a lot of people built on what Greentongue refers to in his post - Phil's exposition of his world - and used that common basis to add to that world. In quite a few cases over the years, phil added to his campaign what people did in theirs - the 'shared world' made for a lot of good games!

I don't know enough about Gloriantha to be able to comment; what brought this whole thing into sharp relief for me was the very negative reaction that quite a few people had to the Tekumel Foundation's very strong insistence that in order for Gary Con to have a room full of Tekumel programming, the convention had to put up big posters announcing that the games being run "were Not Official, Not Authorized, and Not Approved for use with Tekumel(TM)". Okay, so what did that really mean? In the event, all of the volunteer GMs that I had lined up quit over this (and some other similar issues) so the room got cancelled. I was, and still am, surprised that an opportunity to promote Tekumel as Phil did it - a lot of the people who had agreed to come with me had gamed with him - was passed up.

See, I always thought that Tekumel was 'a big enough tent' to accommodate anybody who wanted to explore Phil's world. Which is why I'm trying to get a grip on the seemingly very narrow parameters of what is and is not 'proper gaming'...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 28, 2016, 06:53:23 PM
Quote from: DavetheLost;910208
In the opinion of this heretic far too many fandoms are overly obsessed with canon and midrash. In gaming it is not unique to Tekumel. People will scour the most obscure publications to "prove" that they are the standard bearers of the One True Way and everyone else is guilty of BadWrongFun.

This has caused me to be much less active in games that have strong fandoms and a canon of resources about the background. The endless arguments about how many Orcs can defeat a legion of Klingons just cease to be fun. It's elfgames not religion.

What I find refreshing about Respected Clan Elder Chirine's thread is that he is saying "This is how we did it with Phil, and this is how I do it now," while still leaving room for us to develop our own ways of gaming on Tekumel. I hope it would not prove fatal to our cordial relationships if I were to say that on my Tekumel there are bands of raiding Tharks and Warhoons employing outsize Hlyss as mounts, Thoats being not an option due to the lack of the ochre moss of Barsoom on which they feed. Not that I am seriously proposing this, but it is the sort of fantasy I grew up with. "Do what is fun!"

The Legion of Great Stuffiness and Superiority about All Things Tekumel and Looking Down Their Noses at the Mere Idea that Unwashed and Uneducated Pond Slime such as Yourself Could Even Dream of Playing Tekumel Without Doing So Exclusively in Tsolyanu almost completely put me off this wonderful world. Pre-internet I had EPT and Swords & Glory and it was good. Then I discovered the would be OAL...

Then I found Chirine Ba Kal and discovered that Tekumel could be fun again.


Great points - thank you!

I have some Thoats. And lots and lots of Tharks. My players, in the future, may curse your very name. :)

I am very touched at your final sentence - it's what i've been trying to do for the past forty years, and makes it all seem very worthwhile... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 28, 2016, 07:00:23 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;910241
Chirine,

I don't recall if this has been asked before, but could you shed any light on the Temple of the Eye of the World? I recently saw this sight on a Tekumel map and was wondering what it was. Is it related to worship of the One Other, like the Isle of Eyes?

Shemek


When we went there - by tubeway car - it was where the controls for the planetary terra-forming engines had been located. Please do not touch the shards of the Egg of the World; Very Bad Things happen.

The shards still spin on their axis in the middle of the round and open temple; a circular bank of Mysterious Displays, Read-outs, and Controls surrounds the circular space - it's got a null-gravity field, by the way, with a tractor-pressor to move the shards around. Supposedly, if you can collect all the missing shards, the machines will repair the device and restore the manual controls.

Phil scared the kilts off of us with this one. No two kaitars about it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 28, 2016, 07:02:29 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;910273
Hey All,

Out of curiosity, how do you go about searching threads for a specific topic? For example, I'd like to know what the symbol of the Goddess of the Pale Bone is. I used the search box, but it only indicated that it was in a thread, but not where in the thread (not a specific reference). Thanks in advance.

Shemek


It's usually a bleached human bone - usually a femur - etched all over with little dancing figures.

As to how to do a search, you got me...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 28, 2016, 07:11:50 PM
Bren, Asen, and Shemek, thank you for your fascinating replies. I think you've all made points that Phil himself made in the course of our time with him; I think that all of your viewpoints are ones he agreed with.

Thank you for letting me listen to this discussion! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 28, 2016, 08:18:05 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;910222
:D
OK, that was sneaky from your side.

Well, the problem is that books don't generally get down to the platoon or company level.  Bob Crisp's "Brazen Chariots" is more of a memoir then a tactical study; his favorite tactic seems to have been "Pick a jerry tank and shoot at it until it stops moving."  And Hans von Luck in "Panzer Commander" rarely mentions anything lower than a battalion.

It's easy to pick up the strategy of blitzkrieg; translating that into small unit tactics is a lot harder to get good information on.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 28, 2016, 08:19:40 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;910305
When we went there - by tubeway car - it was where the controls for the planetary terra-forming engines had been located. Please do not touch the shards of the Egg of the World; Very Bad Things happen.

The shards still spin on their axis in the middle of the round and open temple; a circular bank of Mysterious Displays, Read-outs, and Controls surrounds the circular space - it's got a null-gravity field, by the way, with a tractor-pressor to move the shards around. Supposedly, if you can collect all the missing shards, the machines will repair the device and restore the manual controls.

Phil scared the kilts off of us with this one. No two kaitars about it.

I think I kind of frustrated Phil sometimes, because my response to stuff like this was "if it's not going to help us defeat the armies of Baron Ald, I really don't care about it."

And my character believed in swords and soldiers, not magic and mysterious weapons of the Ancients.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 28, 2016, 08:59:20 PM
Quote from: Bren;910282


1. I care.

But in just about every game group I've been in or run, there has been one person who can't pronounce things correctly and who often don't remember how to spell things correctly. What they can't pronounce (or spell) may be esoteric names of people, places, and things from a game world, or it may be words in some earthly foreign language, or even words in English* that aren't part of their vernacular. So I'm used to dealing with a lot of mispronunciation.

Does it ruin the game for me? No.  Would I enjoy the game more with correct pronunciation? Without a doubt.

* I realize that English is a foreign language to some of you. If that bugs you...well then you probably are bugged a lot in real life. You can always pretend I said whatever language is native for you instead.




2. Choose Advanced Search and tell it to show “Posts” instead of "Threads."


1. You see, that is the difference between players like you, and those others I was talking about. For them it would absolutely ruin the game. Would I love to have everyone pronounce everything correctly? Sure, why not?  Are they going to? No, certainly not. Will it impact on the "enjoyability" of the game? No, it wont.

2. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.



Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 28, 2016, 09:01:02 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;910308
Bren, Asen, and Shemek, thank you for your fascinating replies. I think you've all made points that Phil himself made in the course of our time with him; I think that all of your viewpoints are ones he agreed with.

Thank you for letting me listen to this discussion! :)


Your welcome. Just throwing in my opinion.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 28, 2016, 09:06:05 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;910307
It's usually a bleached human bone - usually a femur - etched all over with little dancing figures.

As to how to do a search, you got me...


Cool. For some reason I always think of Kokopelli when the Goddess' symbol is described. Kind of like this one.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]270[/ATTACH]

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on July 28, 2016, 09:08:01 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;910305
When we went there - by tubeway car - it was where the controls for the planetary terra-forming engines had been located. Please do not touch the shards of the Egg of the World; Very Bad Things happen.

The shards still spin on their axis in the middle of the round and open temple; a circular bank of Mysterious Displays, Read-outs, and Controls surrounds the circular space - it's got a null-gravity field, by the way, with a tractor-pressor to move the shards around. Supposedly, if you can collect all the missing shards, the machines will repair the device and restore the manual controls.

Phil scared the kilts off of us with this one. No two kaitars about it.


Cool! That sounds very interesting indeed. There's a tonne of potential to really screw up some characters if they're not real careful. :p

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 29, 2016, 01:50:38 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;910332
Cool! That sounds very interesting indeed. There's a tonne of potential to really screw up some characters if they're not real careful. :p

Shemek

That was why I frequently said to Origo "No, we're not going to touch it, and I'll have you impaled if you try."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 29, 2016, 06:41:30 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;910331
Cool. For some reason I always think of Kokopelli when the Goddess' symbol is described. Kind of like this one.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]270[/ATTACH]

Shemek

Same here. When I mentioned this to Phil, many years ago, he simply smiled and puffed on his cigar. I have a deep-seated suspicion that this is one of Phil's 'in-jokes'; Tekumel is stuffed full of them, waiting like the 'easter eggs' you can find in computer games.

And, in my opinion, that's what makes Tekumel so much fun - we're still discovering stuff and laughing, decades later... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 29, 2016, 06:53:13 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;910332
Cool! That sounds very interesting indeed. There's a tonne of potential to really screw up some characters if they're not real careful. :p

Shemek

It was; it was one of the very first times we really and truly understood that we were not playing in a 'fantasy' game - we were hip-deep in a science-fiction world, and one that predated what most of us knew. "Star Trek" and "Star Wars" it wasn't; when we finally got the picture and started lookin back at the Lensman series and other F/SF of that time period, we 'got' Tekumel. If you can find a book edited by Lin Carter, "Discoveries in Fantasy", read it; you'll find some works that will instantly remind you of Phil and his creation. I will not spoil the surprise by saying anything more... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 29, 2016, 06:56:05 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;910375
That was why I frequently said to Origo "No, we're not going to touch it, and I'll have you impaled if you try."

Oh, gods, how many times to you tell him that; practically reaching across the table to throttle him? I mean, I know he was a Priest of Ksarum and all that, but it wasn't until Phil revealed that he was Turshamu's nephew that all became horribly clear.

Turshamu giving Origo driving lessons while we were aboard his little intra-system space boat gave me my first grey hairs.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 29, 2016, 07:05:19 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;910317
Well, the problem is that books don't generally get down to the platoon or company level.  Bob Crisp's "Brazen Chariots" is more of a memoir then a tactical study; his favorite tactic seems to have been "Pick a jerry tank and shoot at it until it stops moving."  And Hans von Luck in "Panzer Commander" rarely mentions anything lower than a battalion.

It's easy to pick up the strategy of blitzkrieg; translating that into small unit tactics is a lot harder to get good information on.


Um. yeah; there just isn't all that much in the genre accessible to the general public. You have to go to the specialist market, and it can attract attention. Me, I got lucky; I knew where to look, and who to talk to - people who had "been to see the elephant", in the old phrase. I listened, and I learned. And quite a few of the founders of our hobby had been there and done that, too; Charles Grant comes instantly to mind.

If I may, may I suggest the movie "Gettysburg"? Besides the fine acting, there's lot of discussion about 'ground': "Is this good ground?" You get a fairly painless introduction to tactics, and how to move formed bodies of troops across terrain. A long time ago, there was a BBC program called "Connections", and one of the shows had a sequence where they got a company of actual Swiss soldiers, gave them period pikes from one of the Swiss arsenals, and put a pike formation through all of the usual evolutions. Another program, John Keegan's "Soldiers", also used troops to teach tactics for the view - nothing too hot and heavy, but it did make one think...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on July 30, 2016, 04:32:52 AM
Following up a little on the concept of using troops to manoeuver to see how it works.

I've done the equivalent of the military ride over a lot of battlefields. Basically instead of being a fresh military officer/cadet using a horse to be instructed about a battle you actually walk the ground with a map and a copy of the battle account.

It's amazing how things that seemed odd or unusual when reading the account make perfect sense when actually on the ground. I've down most of the ECW battles in my youth and a quite a few of the ACW ones when I lived Stateside. I did Waterloo but the ground there is so altered from 1815 it isn't very helpful. In the 90's I did a few of Wellington's Portuguese adventures and the terrain there is most illuminating.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 30, 2016, 05:23:54 AM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;910629
I've done the equivalent of the military ride over a lot of battlefields. Basically instead of being a fresh military officer/cadet using a horse to be instructed about a battle you actually walk the ground with a map and a copy of the battle account.

It's amazing how things that seemed odd or unusual when reading the account make perfect sense when actually on the ground. I've down most of the ECW battles in my youth and a quite a few of the ACW ones when I lived Stateside. I did Waterloo but the ground there is so altered from 1815 it isn't very helpful. In the 90's I did a few of Wellington's Portuguese adventures and the terrain there is most illuminating.
Walking the American Civil War battlefield at Antietam for the first time, I was struck by how the terrain alternately concealed and revealed the cannon that are set up to mark the sites of the batteries in the battle. Take just a few steps in one direction and suddenly one was staring down the muzzle of a cannon at a rather startlingly close range or by taking a few steps in another direction, the cannon would quickly fall below sight-line.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 30, 2016, 10:25:12 AM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;910629
Following up a little on the concept of using troops to manoeuver to see how it works.

I've done the equivalent of the military ride over a lot of battlefields. Basically instead of being a fresh military officer/cadet using a horse to be instructed about a battle you actually walk the ground with a map and a copy of the battle account.

It's amazing how things that seemed odd or unusual when reading the account make perfect sense when actually on the ground. I've down most of the ECW battles in my youth and a quite a few of the ACW ones when I lived Stateside. I did Waterloo but the ground there is so altered from 1815 it isn't very helpful. In the 90's I did a few of Wellington's Portuguese adventures and the terrain there is most illuminating.


Oh, yes, very much so. Walking through Cirencester, on a visit to see friends, I got a very illuminating view of what it must have been like during the two battles fought there. I kept thinking tactically, both in the medieval and ECW sense, and really got to thinking about how I would have managed the fight.

Same thing as you mention for the ACW, too.

(This used to be called a TEWT - Tactical Exercise Without Troops)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 30, 2016, 10:27:44 AM
Quote from: Bren;910634
Walking the American Civil War battlefield at Antietam for the first time, I was struck by how the terrain alternately concealed and revealed the cannon that are set up to mark the sites of the batteries in the battle. Take just a few steps in one direction and suddenly one was staring down the muzzle of a cannon at a rather startlingly close range or by taking a few steps in another direction, the cannon would quickly fall below sight-line.

Yes! This! Antietam is a 'messy' battlefield; if you accurately modeled the terrain, you'd be laughed at by a lot of miniatures gamers - "Nobody fights in that!"

Gives you a whole new take on "Double canister at forty paces!", I think...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: DavetheLost on July 30, 2016, 11:30:31 AM
I live out in the country. Lots of hay fields and corn fields. What most wargamers would classify as "flat open ground". It isn't. Lots of little dips and rises. It doesn't take much to hide a man.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on July 30, 2016, 02:58:43 PM
Quote from: DavetheLost;910667
I live out in the country. Lots of hay fields and corn fields. What most wargamers would classify as "flat open ground". It isn't. Lots of little dips and rises. It doesn't take much to hide a man.

Yet players with look at a obvious way to attack a flank or even rear and ignore it.
So the slight imperfections in the terrain are completely alien concepts and hardly worth the effort to describe to them.

If a player asks how or if they can outmaneuver an opponent, I'm more than happy to point one/some out.
Few bother to.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: DavetheLost on July 30, 2016, 04:00:45 PM
What are these "flank" and "rear" of which you speak? ;)

I will be the first to admit that I am a terrible tactician, but even I know to look for cover, and attack the flank or rear when possible. I also know that head on frontal assault is rarely the best way to approach a problem.

But then I started gaming before the days of "every encounter must be balanced and 'winnable'". Certainly the generals of history were never guaranteed equal points or matched forces. They did the best they could with what they had. Didn't Sun Tzu say something to the effect of if you give your opponent a fair fight you have already lost?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 31, 2016, 10:23:22 AM
Quote from: DavetheLost;910667
I live out in the country. Lots of hay fields and corn fields. What most wargamers would classify as "flat open ground". It isn't. Lots of little dips and rises. It doesn't take much to hide a man.

Yeah; this. It's food for thought, when you consider the terrain and how it can be used.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 31, 2016, 10:24:40 AM
Quote from: DavetheLost;910667
I live out in the country. Lots of hay fields and corn fields. What most wargamers would classify as "flat open ground". It isn't. Lots of little dips and rises. It doesn't take much to hide a man.


Yeah; this. It's food for thought, when you consider the terrain and how it can be used.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 31, 2016, 10:31:37 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;910694
Yet players with look at a obvious way to attack a flank or even rear and ignore it.
So the slight imperfections in the terrain are completely alien concepts and hardly worth the effort to describe to them.

If a player asks how or if they can outmaneuver an opponent, I'm more than happy to point one/some out.
Few bother to.
=

I have to agree with you on this. The frontal assault seems to be the action of choice most of the time, which I find personally very annoying after I built a game table that has lots of room for maneuver and even more places to hide. One of the people at the event I was at yesterday remarked about my games is that I always laid out minefields so that the mines were plainly visible - and that players still routinely walked / rode / sailed right into them anyway. I'm always astonished when this happens, despite having seen it happen over and over again.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 31, 2016, 10:35:43 AM
Quote from: DavetheLost;910703
What are these "flank" and "rear" of which you speak? ;)

I will be the first to admit that I am a terrible tactician, but even I know to look for cover, and attack the flank or rear when possible. I also know that head on frontal assault is rarely the best way to approach a problem.

But then I started gaming before the days of "every encounter must be balanced and 'winnable'". Certainly the generals of history were never guaranteed equal points or matched forces. They did the best they could with what they had. Didn't Sun Tzu say something to the effect of if you give your opponent a fair fight you have already lost?

Yes! I was roundly taken to task for not including this kind of scenario in my own set of miniatures rules; I pointed out that Phil had published two very asymmetrical game scenarios - Chanis and Ry - and was told that he'd done them wrong.

We neber had a 'balanced' scenario out at Phil's; it was always a fight against the odds for our survival, which Phil thought was appropriate as we were Heroes and Heroines and should be engaged in desperate struggles. So, we were, and we did. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 31, 2016, 02:01:55 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;910786
Yeah; this. It's food for thought, when you consider the terrain and how it can be used.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;910787
Yeah; this. It's food for thought, when you consider the terrain and how it can be used.
And sometimes the food is so plentiful that one needs to think twice. :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 31, 2016, 03:35:23 PM
Quote from: Bren;910816
And sometimes the food is so plentiful that one needs to think twice. :D

I have no idea why that posted twice; I tried to delete it after it happened, but my browser locked up and refused the request. The site also told me that I couldn't do it, either. So, back on now, and it seems to have been cleared. Sorry about the double post.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 31, 2016, 03:49:17 PM
Had quite a bit of fun, yesterday; went to a picnic where my opponents in the RPG campaign that I'm (playing the formerly NPC bandit chieftain) were there, and I had quite a lot of fun doing a bit of gamesmanship - in my best Don Corleone voice, of course.

There was some parsing out of "sleeping with the fishes", but I did a little role-playing and demonstrated what large barrels full of watre could be used for - we're way out in the steppes, so I understood that they were being player-characters and trying to exploit what they thought was a mistake - and then they got pretty purturbed when I showed them that the barrel also had my stock of fish for dinner.

My, oh, my, did the room get quite quiet all of a sudden... :)

It appeared, from the drift of the conversations, that I have quite the reputation as a Fearsome Adversary With Whom It Is A Bad Idea To Trifle. Well, he said modestly, I do try to make an effort. I was hugely amused; the potato salad also went over a treat.

It was a very good day. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 31, 2016, 06:38:14 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;910829
Had quite a bit of fun, yesterday; went to a picnic where my opponents in the RPG campaign that I'm (playing the formerly NPC bandit chieftain) were there, and I had quite a lot of fun doing a bit of gamesmanship - in my best Don Corleone voice, of course.

There was some parsing out of "sleeping with the fishes", but I did a little role-playing and demonstrated what large barrels full of watre could be used for - we're way out in the steppes, so I understood that they were being player-characters and trying to exploit what they thought was a mistake - and then they got pretty purturbed when I showed them that the barrel also had my stock of fish for dinner.

My, oh, my, did the room get quite quiet all of a sudden... :)

It appeared, from the drift of the conversations, that I have quite the reputation as a Fearsome Adversary With Whom It Is A Bad Idea To Trifle. Well, he said modestly, I do try to make an effort. I was hugely amused; the potato salad also went over a treat.

It was a very good day. :)

:D:D:D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on July 31, 2016, 09:07:35 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;910850
:D:D:D

Yeah. It was pretty entertaining to see all of them having very obvious second thoughts about killing my people. I think the GM made a casual off-hand comment to the effect of "I wonder what the bandit chief will think about this?" which reminded them that they are playing against a live opponent and not just some randomly-rolled NPCs. I am enjoying it all, I think I can say... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on July 31, 2016, 10:39:22 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;910827
I have no idea why that posted twice; I tried to delete it after it happened, but my browser locked up and refused the request. The site also told me that I couldn't do it, either. So, back on now, and it seems to have been cleared. Sorry about the double post.
No worries. I was happy to have an opportunity to tease you.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on July 31, 2016, 11:08:40 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;910866
Yeah. It was pretty entertaining to see all of them having very obvious second thoughts about killing my people. I think the GM made a casual off-hand comment to the effect of "I wonder what the bandit chief will think about this?" which reminded them that they are playing against a live opponent and not just some randomly-rolled NPCs. I am enjoying it all, I think I can say... :)

Good.

The late Sir Terry Pratchett coined the term "narrativium," that being an element whose existence makes stories turn out the right way.

The folks we are speaking of are used to a "high-narrativium" world; that is, "We are the players, therefore our characters are the protagonists, therefore the story will turn out in our favor."

The notion that "it ain't necessarily so" does not occur to them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on August 01, 2016, 05:18:40 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;845318
I'm trying a reboot of an EPT game on RPoL. In the thread where I am reporting it's progress...
http://odd74.proboards.com/thread/11088/oept1-jakalla-harbor=

Greentongue, any more of this fine bit of writing and budding adventure of yours?
It's very evocative and I would love reading more of it.

--

Chirine,

What would it take for a bunch of clanless out-of-towners, claiming Engsvanyali ancestry, to be made into a clan?
Assuming it happened, would a special ceremony take place to mark the creation of this new clan, or would the writing and stamping of a lot of paperwork suffice?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 01, 2016, 06:41:35 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;910874
Good.

The late Sir Terry Pratchett coined the term "narrativium," that being an element whose existence makes stories turn out the right way.

The folks we are speaking of are used to a "high-narrativium" world; that is, "We are the players, therefore our characters are the protagonists, therefore the story will turn out in our favor."

The notion that "it ain't necessarily so" does not occur to them.

Ah. That explains a few things. And makes this all the more enjoyable... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 01, 2016, 06:51:07 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;910895

What would it take for a bunch of clanless out-of-towners, claiming Engsvanyali ancestry, to be made into a clan?
Assuming it happened, would a special ceremony take place to mark the creation of this new clan, or would the writing and stamping of a lot of paperwork suffice?


Well, first off there'd be heaps and heaps of expensive research into their family tree to determine which 'extinct' clan they'd belong to; eventually, it would be determined that LO!, they were all actually members of the long-lost Clan of Such-and-such, long thought to have died out during the reign of Arglebargle IV or Somebody Else, and thus a clan ripe for rebirth - with the right palms greased, of course. As you say, much paperwork would be written and stamped, many many scribes would get fees, temples would get donations to assure the favor of the gods upon the reborn clan, and there would be literally days of elaborate ceremonies, feasting, rituals, and general carrying on to assure everybody that the clan was back in business and well and truly off to a good start. See also the stories in "Deeds of the Ever-Glorious", when a legion is reborn; done that myself, several times.

I'd plan on spending a good half million kaitars on this; they might want to try to get into an established clan, as it'd be a lot cheaper. On the other hand, you could get a good couple of month's worth of games out of this...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 01, 2016, 01:54:37 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;910895
Greentongue, any more of this fine bit of writing and budding adventure of yours?
It's very evocative and I would love reading more of it.

I'm glad you find it entertaining.
We are up to OEPT13: Behind Door Number One in the game on RPoL the reports are from (http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=58590&date=1470073156).

It may not be the Tekumel that the "professionals" are used to as I'm playing it with people that have never heard of it before and trying to play it like it is my first time.
(An exercise in nostalgia.)
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 01, 2016, 07:39:09 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;910874
Good.

The late Sir Terry Pratchett coined the term "narrativium," that being an element whose existence makes stories turn out the right way.

The folks we are speaking of are used to a "high-narrativium" world; that is, "We are the players, therefore our characters are the protagonists, therefore the story will turn out in our favor."

The notion that "it ain't necessarily so" does not occur to them.

Oh, dear. They are in for a shock or two.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 01, 2016, 07:43:46 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;910951
I'm glad you find it entertaining.
We are up to OEPT13: Behind Door Number One in the game on RPoL the reports are from (http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=58590&date=1470073156). =

I read through this, and it feels just like those nights out at Phil's. Very, very good stuff, and I really liked it! :)

Quote from: Greentongue;910951
It may not be the Tekumel that the "professionals" are used to as I'm playing it with people that have never heard of it before and trying to play it like it is my first time.
(An exercise in nostalgia.)=

I have mixed feelings about this; on the one hand, I am delighted that you and your players are having so much fun. On the other, something in me died at the notion of 'professional Tekumel'.:(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 01, 2016, 08:10:08 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;910984
I have mixed feelings about this; on the one hand, I am delighted that you and your players are having so much fun. On the other, something in me died at the notion of 'professional Tekumel'.:(
Think of it this way. One meaning of professional is you got paid. And in one sense, peanuts still counts as pay.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 01, 2016, 10:20:31 PM
Quote from: Bren;910986
Think of it this way. One meaning of professional is you got paid. And in one sense, peanuts still counts as pay.

$25 a day food allowance and a place to sleep.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 01, 2016, 10:45:32 PM
Quote from: Bren;910986
Think of it this way. One meaning of professional is you got paid. And in one sense, peanuts still counts as pay.


$35 a day for the twelve days a year I went to conventions for Dave; I had to pay for all my expenses out of that. I did get a spot on the floor to sleep on, though. (The AGI staff, Dave's friends, got beds; we 'Tekumel boat people' - as Dave referred to us - got floors, as befitted our lesser status and dignity.) On the average, I spent between $2,500 and $3,000 a year paying for everything else that had to do with Tekumel. The miniatures line broke even, and paid for the metal it took to cast the figures; we donated our labor. Everything else was pretty much a dead loss; the paper goods never paid for themselves. After the collapse of AGI, I paid for all the convention trips, and hoped to break even from sales. Never happened, thought.

I must not have been much of a professional. A sap and a chump, probably, but probably not a professional.

You should have been around for all the whining and crying when I stopped paying for other people's fun, a few years back.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 01, 2016, 10:48:07 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;911001
$25 a day food allowance and a place to sleep.

But think of the prestige! The fame! The glory! The adoration of the multitudes!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 01, 2016, 11:16:31 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;911004
But think of the prestige! The fame! The glory! The adoration of the multitudes!

Can I go back to trudging through Milumanaya with 5000 rabid tribesmen trying to do me in with their bone tipped spears, instead?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 02, 2016, 02:16:58 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;911003
You should have been around for all the whining and crying when I stopped paying for other people's fun, a few years back.
Nah, I'd probably have hurt them.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;911006
Can I go back to trudging through Milumanaya with 5000 rabid tribesmen trying to do me in with their bone tipped spears, instead?
Just like an imperialist, always whinging about how nothing is as good as the good old days out on the frontier with the regiment, surrounded by stout hearts and true, and the inevitable yet somehow comforting dirt, mud, blood, and dust and of course lots and lots of hostile natives.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 02, 2016, 06:55:21 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;910984
I read through this, and it feels just like those nights out at Phil's. Very, very good stuff, and I really liked it! :)

I am happy that if this is truly their first introduction to Tekumel, as I think it is, that I'm not giving them a wrong impression.
Your tips have helped with that.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: DavetheLost on August 02, 2016, 03:34:44 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;889742
Karim Missum believed that frontal assaults were for sissies. A real warrior had himself launched by trebuchet into the midst of the foe.

The Red Devastators are all like that. :eek:


I know a few like this...

On page 247, working my way through the thread.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on August 02, 2016, 07:29:56 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;910951
I'm glad you find it entertaining.
We are up to OEPT13: Behind Door Number One in the game on RPoL the reports are from (http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=58590&date=1470073156).=

Well, I gotta say, it's really excellent. Thanks for sharing this with us.

I've been working on setting up a series of Tekumel adventures and this fantastic thread (now with the added bonus of your session reports, Greentongue) are tremendously helpful.

As far as I'm concerned, "Questioning Chirine Ba Kal" is the most inspiring Tekumel stuff I've come across since reading the novels. Barker's word loses its academic veneer here and starts to smell, look, and sound like something very real, which makes it manageable to a GM.

So thanks every one ... and thank you especially, Chirine.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 03, 2016, 06:50:43 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;911118
Well, I gotta say, it's really excellent. Thanks for sharing this with us.

I've been working on setting up a series of Tekumel adventures and this fantastic thread (now with the added bonus of your session reports, Greentongue) are tremendously helpful.

As far as I'm concerned, "Questioning Chirine Ba Kal" is the most inspiring Tekumel stuff I've come across since reading the novels. Barker's word loses its academic veneer here and starts to smell, look, and sound like something very real, which makes it manageable to a GM.

So thanks every one ... and thank you especially, Chirine.

Thank you for your kind words! For us, it was something very real, for quite a few years. What I'm hoping to do is give a feeling of what our Tekumel with Phil was like.

You;re very welcome!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 03, 2016, 07:03:00 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;911118
Well, I gotta say, it's really excellent. Thanks for sharing this with us.

I've been working on setting up a series of Tekumel adventures and this fantastic thread (now with the added bonus of your session reports, Greentongue) are tremendously helpful.

As far as I'm concerned, "Questioning Chirine Ba Kal" is the most inspiring Tekumel stuff I've come across since reading the novels. Barker's word loses its academic veneer here and starts to smell, look, and sound like something very real, which makes it manageable to a GM.

So thanks every one ... and thank you especially, Chirine.


Thank you for your kind words! For us, it was something very real, for quite a few years. What I'm hoping to do is give a feeling of what our Tekumel with Phil was like.

You;re very welcome!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 03, 2016, 05:52:15 PM
I've been trying to think os a better answer for all of you as to why I love Tekumel. This is something I wrote a while back, which may illuminate what I'm trying to say...

[1.0001]   Preface: Saint Maries, Idaho; Summer, 1939 C.E.

   The late afternoon sun shone on a scene of carnage; on a hard, flat plain, armies marched and counter-marched in their serried formations, closing in places to engage their enemies in deadly melees. Here, a clump of armored men were trapped against some rough ground by a larger group of kilted slingers; there, a force of spearmen pressed home their advantage against an opposing force armed only with shields and swords and courage. The fighting forces were commanded by hierophants in jeweled robes and heroes in glittering armor; they led their soldiers to victory or defeat, and cried their triumphs or their defiance as the fortunes of war and the chances of battle took them. The vast plain resounded with their battle cries, their soundings of braying trumpet and thundering drum; their standards proclaimed their glory to the world. The armies fought, men died, and such as it had always been on that great plain…

   An expert observer, schooled in the niceties of warfare, would have noticed something odd about the contending forces; there were none of the cavalry formations that one might of expected of the time and the place which the garb and armor of the fighting men – and women, for there were also priestesses and queens amongst the armies’ commanders – would suggest. No armored knights in their glittering plate and mail, no chariots thundering down the field; instead, there were strange beasts of war, most unlike those which had served mankind in warfare for so many millennia. These beasts looked more like those described in the recent works of some of the authors considered to be ‘not of the best’ by more established and more conservative writers of history, and more like the illustrations done by artists for the luridly-colored covers of these new authors’ publications.

   A less expert observer, or a more casual one, would perhaps not have noticed this at first glance; a more casual look across the plain would have revealed it to be a floor in a room lit by the late afternoon sun. The mighty generals, and their equally mighty armies, would be seen as toy soldiers; some from the manufacturers of the time, and some – the hierophants and heroes, the strange beasts – carved of wood and painted. The rough ground would be seen as no more then a rug, and the low hills simply the stacked books and magazines of a library both extensive and eclectic. Many of the low ‘hills’ that edged the ‘plain’ bore the cover illustrations that had been regarded with distain by more ‘serious’ writers. Titles like “Amazing Stories” competed for space on the room’s shelves with much more scholarly tomes on the languages of long-dead civilizations such as that of the Egypt of the Pharaohs, or the feathered rulers of the Mayans of Central America.

   Scattered in amongst these books and magazines were scraps of paper, with the writings of a spidery cursive script that had no known counterpart in the historical lexicons; these seemed to be centered on a desk, which in turn bore on it’s wooden surface a large map of a land marked with the locations of cities and towns, rivers and oceans, mountains and forests. There were notations on the map in the cartographer’s own language, as well as more of the cursive script. The land bore the name “Ts Solyánu”, and the cities bore names like “Jakálla”, “Khirgár”, “Tumíssa”; marked with dot of gold ink were the names “Béy Su” and “Avanthar”, places which the cartographer must consider to be of special importance.

   The desk also bore documents and drawings; some in the relatively more familiar hieroglyphs of the scribes of Ancient Egypt, some in a blocky script that was unfamiliar and seemingly less refined then the cursive script of the map. The drawings, done some in pencil and some in ink, depicted scenes of tales and wonders that were both strange in their setting but familiar in their themes of love and war, heroes and heroines, cads and cowards; there was an obvious element of artistic imagination at work, but there was also a sensation of tales that had yet to be told.

   “Philip! Dinner!” The woman’s voice drifted up the stairs, calling the cartographer, and artist, and storyteller.

   A boy, about a decade old, looked up from the musty and ancient scroll he was holding – and had just finished inking the delicate cursive script upon – and adjusted his spectacles. He rose from the desk, picked his way through the groups of soldiers still locked in combat, and closed the door to the room behind himself. The armies would still be here on the hard flat plain, as would their stories and legends; there would be more time, later on, to tell them…

And so it begins; tales of wonder, and of people not yet born, and of lands not yet known…
Come with us; our journey is just begun…


(From "To Serve The Petal Throne", Book One - "The Chalice of the Flame", Introduction - Section 1.0001)
Title: From the Alpha to the Omega
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 03, 2016, 05:59:35 PM
And, I guess, after giving the Preface to Book One - "The Chalice of the Flame", I should give the Epilogue to Book Six - "To the Distant Shores"...

Epilogue: Minneapolis, Minnesota, 2012 C. E.

(From the blog, "Chirine’s Workbench", on Saturday, March 17th, 2012: posted at 12:05 in the morning, after a very long day…)

Well.

This is going to be a very personal post, told from a very personal point of view, and with some very personal feelings.

This post wasn’t originally going to be what you’re about to read; I had wanted to talk about going out to see “John Carter”. I had a day off, the first one in several months, and I wanted to take my very own Dejah Thoris out for a day’s excursion. As Prof. Barker’s archivist, I especially wanted to see this movie because I’d just found his childhood copy of “A Princess of Mars”, and I thought it would be fun to see a movie that Phil would (I thought) enjoy; he’d loved the various “Conan” movies as he’d read the R. E. Howard stories as they’d come out, back in the day when I taken him out to see them, and he was like a kid again watching them.

I didn’t get to see the movie.

Instead, I buried an old friend.

I got the call from the house at 11:15 this morning, and I’m just now back home at about 00:15 local time. Phil had been in slowly declining health over the past six months, and he’d taken a very marked turn for the worse over the past 36 hours. He passed away about 10:30 this morning, and the news passed like the flames of a chain of signal beacons along a Sakbe road.

In Islam, the departed are to be buried within twenty-four hours; they have gone on their final journey and it is the responsibility of the family, the friends, and the faithful to take care of what Allah the Most Merciful and Compassionate has left behind. We did. We prepared the empty husk of the brilliant, eccentric, funny, cranky, and unique man I knew for so many years, and then we carried him down his stairs in his home for the last time. Like so many Praetorians, we did what we’d promised we did for him so many years ago; we took care of him, and we took care of Ambereen.

I rode with him for the last time on the way to the mosque, and when I was asked by the brothers who were to prepare him for the prayers of the faithful why I was there, all I could respond with was something that Phil had said about me to some of his players back when I was twenty-five and he had come with Ambereen to my birthday party: “This is the son I never had.”

I stayed with him for the last time as they washed and anointed him, and I was asked about this man who had departed from us. I told them of his gifts as a linguist and as a scholar, of his writing, and of his life. I told them of his conversion to Islam, and his abiding faith. I told him of how he’d taught so many of us so many things, and I told them of his astonishing creation of an entire world.

I stayed with him while he was given the robes he would wear for his final trip in this world, and I stayed with him while the faithful offered their prayers for him. Together, we took him to the cemetery, and we returned him to the earth that he had sprung from. We took Ambereen home, and stayed with her telling stories of our times with him; there will be, I am told, an official memorial in the near future. Tonight was, though, just for us.

We’ll be back there tomorrow, as the family members fly in from all points, and we’ll do what we can to help. That’s what we came to do, all those years ago, and what we’ll do for him and for Ambereen in the future; be there for them, and to serve the Petal Throne.

And now, if it’s all right, I’ll be off to try and get some sleep. I’ll have more later, when I have the chance.

Thank you all, once again...

yours, chirine
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 03, 2016, 10:00:12 PM
Very moving and nicely told. Thanks for sharing that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 03, 2016, 10:17:11 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;911258
the brilliant, eccentric, funny, cranky, and unique man I knew for so many years

Though I follow a different one of the Children of Abraham from Phil, all I can say is, "Amen."  (Heb., "so be it," or alternatively and in this case, "truly.")
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on August 04, 2016, 09:48:32 AM
That was very moving, indeed.
Thank you for generously sharing this with us.

To Serve The Petal Throne is going to be a wonder to read and behold.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 04, 2016, 09:18:34 PM
Quote from: Bren;911286
Very moving and nicely told. Thanks for sharing that.


You're welcome!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 04, 2016, 09:31:02 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;911288
Though I follow a different one of the Children of Abraham from Phil, all I can say is, "Amen."  (Heb., "so be it," or alternatively and in this case, "truly.")

Agreed! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 04, 2016, 09:36:50 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;911288
Though I follow a different one of the Children of Abraham from Phil, all I can say is, "Amen."  (Heb., "so be it," or alternatively and in this case, "truly.")

Agreed! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 04, 2016, 09:38:37 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;911343
That was very moving, indeed.
Thank you for generously sharing this with us.

To Serve The Petal Throne is going to be a wonder to read and behold.

Thank you! You're very welcome!

I hope so; I'm too close to the thing to know... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 04, 2016, 10:47:07 PM
Sometimes you just feel like it...

"Friends all tried to warn me but I held my head up high
All the time to warn me but I only passed them by
They all tried to tell me but I guess I didn't care
I turned my back and left them standing there

All the burning bridges that are falling after me
All the lonely feelings and the burning memories
Everyone I left behind each time I closed the door
Burning bridges lost forevermore

Joey tried to help me find a job a while ago
When I finally got it I didn't want to go
The party Mary gave for me when I just walked away
Now there's nothing left for me to say

All the burning bridges that are falling after me
All the lonely feelings and the burning memories
Everyone I left behind each time I closed the door
Burning bridges lost forevermore

Years have passed and I keep thinking, what a fool I've been
I look back into the past and think of way back then
I know that I lost everything I thought that I could win
I guess I should have listened to my friends

All the burning bridges that are falling after me
All the lonely feelings and the burning memories
Everyone I left behind each time I closed the door
Burning bridges lost forevermore

Burning bridges lost forevermore"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on August 05, 2016, 01:21:42 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;911444
Sometimes you just feel like it...

Burning bridges lost forevermore"

Love that song. I hunted forever for it when I was younger after many a viewing of one of my favorite movies.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 05, 2016, 05:59:34 PM
Same here - "Kelly's Heroes" could be used to teach the kind of tactical thinking that Gronan and I are forever going on about.

"I don't like officers."
"Neither does he."
"Oh?"
"He used to be one."
"Oh."

In re the lyrics, My General; yeah, how many times did you and I try to tell Phil or Dave - or Gary, for all I know - or any of the other people we knew in the industry that what they were planning was A Bad Idea?

Sigh.

Onward! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 05, 2016, 08:04:21 PM
" 'Arf arf arf arf arf.' That's my other dog imitation."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 06, 2016, 07:27:06 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;911543
" 'Arf arf arf arf arf.' That's my other dog imitation."

The scene where they come out of the tunnel and wreck a perfectly good little railway station...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 06, 2016, 07:37:36 PM
So, here's a question for you experienced dungeon delvers...

I'm scaling out the map in "Tomb Complex of Nereshanbo"; I want it to fit on a 60" by 60" or 60" by 90" table, in modules no more then 24" wide (doors). The graph paper squares are supposed to be ten foot wide, which means Phil's usual three in the front rank - but with the one inch bases I use, it's going to triple the size of the thing. Could I get away with two inch wide corridors, and overlap the figures' bases? I'm going by Phil's rules in EPT, by the way, if that's any help...

My thought is that I don't remember any combats where we actually massed three in a rank; as I recall, it was normally two as we thought that it was more realistic, based on our own experiences, and Phil pretty much made that the house rule in his campaign.

Thoughts? Comments?

And no, this thing needs to be portable, so no running water. Although I did think about it... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on August 07, 2016, 09:27:28 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;910317
Well, the problem is that books don't generally get down to the platoon or company level.  Bob Crisp's "Brazen Chariots" is more of a memoir then a tactical study; his favorite tactic seems to have been "Pick a jerry tank and shoot at it until it stops moving."  And Hans von Luck in "Panzer Commander" rarely mentions anything lower than a battalion.

It's easy to pick up the strategy of blitzkrieg; translating that into small unit tactics is a lot harder to get good information on.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;910522
Um. yeah; there just isn't all that much in the genre accessible to the general public. You have to go to the specialist market, and it can attract attention. Me, I got lucky; I knew where to look, and who to talk to - people who had "been to see the elephant", in the old phrase. I listened, and I learned. And quite a few of the founders of our hobby had been there and done that, too; Charles Grant comes instantly to mind.

If I may, may I suggest the movie "Gettysburg"? Besides the fine acting, there's lot of discussion about 'ground': "Is this good ground?" You get a fairly painless introduction to tactics, and how to move formed bodies of troops across terrain. A long time ago, there was a BBC program called "Connections", and one of the shows had a sequence where they got a company of actual Swiss soldiers, gave them period pikes from one of the Swiss arsenals, and put a pike formation through all of the usual evolutions. Another program, John Keegan's "Soldiers", also used troops to teach tactics for the view - nothing too hot and heavy, but it did make one think...
I'm no founder of any hobby, but I've done almost the same thing with local battles, and with people who have seen more of the elephant than I'd ever want to see in person. Though I admit platoon level is often the upper level I strive for, before going into army-level strategy;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;911444
Sometimes you just feel like it...

"Friends all tried to warn me but I held my head up high
All the time to warn me but I only passed them by
They all tried to tell me but I guess I didn't care
I turned my back and left them standing there

All the burning bridges that are falling after me
All the lonely feelings and the burning memories
Everyone I left behind each time I closed the door
Burning bridges lost forevermore

Joey tried to help me find a job a while ago
When I finally got it I didn't want to go
The party Mary gave for me when I just walked away
Now there's nothing left for me to say

All the burning bridges that are falling after me
All the lonely feelings and the burning memories
Everyone I left behind each time I closed the door
Burning bridges lost forevermore

Years have passed and I keep thinking, what a fool I've been
I look back into the past and think of way back then
I know that I lost everything I thought that I could win
I guess I should have listened to my friends

All the burning bridges that are falling after me
All the lonely feelings and the burning memories
Everyone I left behind each time I closed the door
Burning bridges lost forevermore

Burning bridges lost forevermore"

Quote from: Big Andy;911494
Love that song. I hunted forever for it when I was younger after many a viewing of one of my favorite movies.

And now it's on Youtube, so here it is for the whole thread:D.

Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: DavetheLost on August 07, 2016, 09:37:02 AM
I have long been of the philosophy that little lead men are rather stiff and rigidly inflexible compared to meat men. I would have no issue with overlapping bases. I know some gamers who get out the laser pointer to determine line of sight to any part of the model, and such malarky. Never mind that the man is supposed to hugging tight to the corner and the miniature looks like he is dancing a wild tarantella!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 07, 2016, 10:33:13 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;911711
I'm no founder of any hobby, but I've done almost the same thing with local battles, and with people who have seen more of the elephant than I'd ever want to see in person. Though I admit platoon level is often the upper level I strive for, before going into army-level strategy;).


Very practical approach, this. Small unit tactics are usually more interesting - to me, anyway - then army-level; the latter is mostly arrows on a map, in most publications.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 07, 2016, 11:24:51 AM
Quote from: DavetheLost;911713
I have long been of the philosophy that little lead men are rather stiff and rigidly inflexible compared to meat men. I would have no issue with overlapping bases. I know some gamers who get out the laser pointer to determine line of sight to any part of the model, and such malarky. Never mind that the man is supposed to hugging tight to the corner and the miniature looks like he is dancing a wild tarantella!

Agreed! I laid out some sample corridors, and while the one inch square looks way too small, the 'true scale' three inch looks too big. Two inches seems to look better - I keep thinking of Phil's accounts of wandering through Ancient Egyptian tombs and temples, and the Red Fort.

Line of sight. Sigh. I do get these questions, and the inverted periscopes usually provide an answer in short order. About the only time the lasers come out is when somebody wants to shoot at somebody else through the trees, and I have to demonstrate why they have such a low chance to hit. Usually happens once or twice, then the player learns to use their eyes.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 07, 2016, 12:27:35 PM
I'm glad the egos here are not so big...The bridges allow for steady movement of information and troops. No burning bridges here!!! Nereshanbo seems like it is coming along. I can't wait to see it and hear all the reports of mayhem...

I finally read ERB's A Princess of Mars. [I had read, A Warlord of Mars out of sequence(cool dungeon delve therein)in the past]. I was overjoyed to read an old fashioned tale about a good-doing hero. I would recommend it to those who have not read it yet. Good stuff.

I am also finally reading A Prince of Skulls. Great descriptions of Pe Choi and village, the Chakas, and a tubeway car and station thus far. If you can get your hands on a copy, do so. So I'm sure questions will be forthcoming...!!!

Be well.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 08, 2016, 06:49:14 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;911744
I'm glad the egos here are not so big...The bridges allow for steady movement of information and troops. No burning bridges here!!! Nereshanbo seems like it is coming along. I can't wait to see it and hear all the reports of mayhem...

I finally read ERB's A Princess of Mars. [I had read, A Warlord of Mars out of sequence(cool dungeon delve therein)in the past]. I was overjoyed to read an old fashioned tale about a good-doing hero. I would recommend it to those who have not read it yet. Good stuff.

I am also finally reading A Prince of Skulls. Great descriptions of Pe Choi and village, the Chakas, and a tubeway car and station thus far. If you can get your hands on a copy, do so. So I'm sure questions will be forthcoming...!!!

Be well.

H:0)

I think it's because we're all interested in actually playing and having fun. :)

Wonderful - you are following in Phil's footsteps; it was quite a moving thing to be able to hold his first edition 1919 hardback. Reading it was a treat, too! :)

This shows how consistant Phil was - the descriptions were first used by him a decade earlier, when we first visited the Chakas, and he kept his notes 'for later'. Which is one of the reasons why I like Tekumel, to be honest; Phil was very much into maintaining continuity in his setting. He did the same thing with his notes on the Isle of Eyes, in adventures a decade apart.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on August 08, 2016, 08:21:41 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;911719
Very practical approach, this. Small unit tactics are usually more interesting - to me, anyway - then army-level; the latter is mostly arrows on a map, in most publications.
Well, at least it's practical enough for playing RPGs, which seldom surpass small teams:). I suspect it might not work for a wargame if I was to face a dedicated wargamer...
Alas, I know of no online forums for wargame fights, so it's unlikely I'd get to test myself in this area any time soon;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on August 08, 2016, 02:31:03 PM
OK everybody used to start off as barbarians from Haida Pakala that had no understanding of Tsolyanu culture or how everybody fits, etc., which was how the Good Professor introduced concepts that showed how Tekumel wasn't like other games. How similar is Haida Pakala like "standard" fantasy worlds? I mean, if the folks coming of the boat in Jakalla were so out of place by acting more like standard gamers, would standard gamers fit in better in Haida Pakala?

This one is a minor question.
Let's say you are put in charge of a fief. I assume you get a promotion within the clan but your clan leaders still boss you around with regard to clan stuff. Or are you elevated to a clan leader while you are running the fief so the clan can get the most benefit from the relationship?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 08, 2016, 05:36:06 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;911942
Well, at least it's practical enough for playing RPGs, which seldom surpass small teams:). I suspect it might not work for a wargame if I was to face a dedicated wargamer...
Alas, I know of no online forums for wargame fights, so it's unlikely I'd get to test myself in this area any time soon;).

Could be; I've found that it's relatively easy to apply the principles of small-unit tactics to larger conflicts.

That's kind of surprising, to me...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 08, 2016, 05:54:16 PM
From Big Andy:
OK everybody used to start off as barbarians from Haida Pakala that had no understanding of Tsolyanu culture or how everybody fits, etc., which was how the Good Professor introduced concepts that showed how Tekumel wasn't like other games. How similar is Haida Pakala like "standard" fantasy worlds? I mean, if the folks coming of the boat in Jakalla were so out of place by acting more like standard gamers, would standard gamers fit in better in Haida Pakala?

Possibly; Haida Pakalla is a nasty place, even by Tekumelyani standards. Murder, treachery, and betrayal are as common as breathing; it was, in short, exactly the kind of place where the original group of Phil's players would have and could have thrived. It's a very good simulation of the old Fifth Precinct wargaming group here in the Twin Cities in the middle to late 1970s, with much the same sort of 'uncivilized' social activity. Ask Gronan what they were like. 'Murderhobos', as PCs are sometimes referred to, would be considered normal upstanding citizens of Haida Pakalla.

As for 'standard gamers' fitting in, I would hope that they would not; Gary Fine got a whole book ("Shared Fantasy") out of the pretty over-the-top goings on at what he calls the 'Golden Brigade' group. I like to think of our old CSA group as the civilization of the Five Empires, and the Fifth Precinct as Haida Pakalla; the kind of gamers who would do well in Haida Pakalla - and I have met more then a few of them, over the years - would not be the kind of people I would want to game with.

Gronan? Comments?

This one is a minor question.
Let's say you are put in charge of a fief. I assume you get a promotion within the clan but your clan leaders still boss you around with regard to clan stuff. Or are you elevated to a clan leader while you are running the fief so the clan can get the most benefit from the relationship?


Yes, your status within the clan would be elevated; you might be made a clan elder, if it was a smaller and poorer clan, but higher status and wealthier noble clans would assume that they'd get the fief simply as their due. A lot depends on the fief; a small two-hex fief like Tu'umnra or Ferenara is not going to put you at the top of the clan - they'll give you their advice and support, but not a seat in the clan councils - but a major fief like my City-of and Province-of Hekallu dual fief (as well as being Warden of the Chaigari Marches) got me a high status clan (Iron Helm), a title (I became a Lord), and a pretty listened-to voice in both my old clan of Eye of Flame and in my new one.

And the clan assumes that they will benefit from your position; the clan will expect to get good contracts, positions, and trade opportunities (if they do that kind of thing) due to your position of influence.

Does this help, at all?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 08, 2016, 10:46:17 PM
When I washed ashore on Jakalla harbor strand in a leaky rowboat, I was "a barbarian from an uncivilized continent far to the south."  I don't think I even heard the name of Heida Pakalla for some years.  And had no desire to return, since the game as presented was about exploring the Five Empires.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on August 09, 2016, 05:57:27 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;912039
Could be; I've found that it's relatively easy to apply the principles of small-unit tactics to larger conflicts.

That's kind of surprising, to me...

https://www.amazon.com/Way-Power-Secrets-Japanese-Strategy/dp/0873644093
This book argues basically that single-man tactics, small-units and army-level tactics are the same, and so is business;). I was surprised when I first read it, but most of it made sense, assuming one has mastered the basics of both fields.

I don't think I've ever visited or had PCs visit Haida Pakalla, so I'll have to put it on my to do list:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 09, 2016, 05:16:30 PM
Uncle,

I was wondering about medicine within the five kingdoms. I know that some magic is employed in healing in some cases. What about "non-magic" medicine? At what level of advancement is medicine in your time? Any details such as surgery or such would be helpful. I know Harsan's wife has skill with herbs and such. In general what could one expect...Thanks.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 09, 2016, 06:04:27 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;912072
When I washed ashore on Jakalla harbor strand in a leaky rowboat, I was "a barbarian from an uncivilized continent far to the south."  I don't think I even heard the name of Heida Pakalla for some years.  And had no desire to return, since the game as presented was about exploring the Five Empires.


Yep; Phil hadn't named Haida Pakalla yet, as the EPT maps didn't cover that part of the world in 1975. He formally named the area when he did the next two maps - the EPT maps were 1 and 2 of the S&G set - which took us out east quite a ways on maps 3 and 4. There is also a map '0', out to the west of map 1, which covers the Tane area and the far west of Mu'uglavya.

The 'Southern Continent' - it's a great place to be from!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 09, 2016, 06:05:14 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;912090
https://www.amazon.com/Way-Power-Secrets-Japanese-Strategy/dp/0873644093
This book argues basically that single-man tactics, small-units and army-level tactics are the same, and so is business;). I was surprised when I first read it, but most of it made sense, assuming one has mastered the basics of both fields.

I don't think I've ever visited or had PCs visit Haida Pakalla, so I'll have to put it on my to do list:D!

I'll look the book up.

:)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 09, 2016, 06:22:05 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;912149
Uncle,

I was wondering about medicine within the five kingdoms. I know that some magic is employed in healing in some cases. What about "non-magic" medicine? At what level of advancement is medicine in your time? Any details such as surgery or such would be helpful. I know Harsan's wife has skill with herbs and such. In general what could one expect...Thanks.

H:0)

'Regular' medicine is actually pretty good. Phil pegged it at about the level of the Greeks and Romans, with very good surgeons and decent apothecaries. There's a lot of good herbal and chemical treatments, as the physicians have had a very long time to practice on their patients. You will see a well-equipped physician with all sorts of fearsome instruments, as there is no real distinction between surgeons, and 'doctors'. Apothecaries are a separate discipline, though, and every good physician normally has an equally good apothecary as a partner. And you do get specialists for specialist treatments of specialized ailments, too.

Sorcery is not, as we found out with Prince Eselne's death, a cure-all for everything. Healing spells are usually very specific and used as treatments for very specific illnesses and injuries; Eselne probably would have lived with a week of 500cc of saline solution and some Ringer's lactate.

There is, I will modestly mention, an upcoming bit of medical humor in Book Six where the Legion's Chief Physician visits a badly injured Chirine; I manage to get nearly killed rescuing somebody from a burning building, and the day after sees Yours Truly getting a mass visit by the local medical association to see what they can do for me. (There is much humor, as Tinaliya are involved; they like to fix things, and have many, many solutions in search of problems to be solved.) You'll get a chance to see the leading edge of modern medical technology in action, with asides from the medical people about how regular visits to one's physicians are a vital part of a multi-phasic interdisciplinary approach to health care. (I'm also having a for-real cutter look the thing over, so I can get a real medical opinion on the subject.)

Does this help? Do you need something more specific?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 09, 2016, 06:46:04 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;912158
'Regular' medicine is actually pretty good. Phil pegged it at about the level of the Greeks and Romans, with very good surgeons and decent apothecaries. There's a lot of good herbal and chemical treatments, as the physicians have had a very long time to practice on their patients. You will see a well-equipped physician with all sorts of fearsome instruments, as there is no real distinction between surgeons, and 'doctors'. Apothecaries are a separate discipline, though, and every good physician normally has an equally good apothecary as a partner. And you do get specialists for specialist treatments of specialized ailments, too.

Sorcery is not, as we found out with Prince Eselne's death, a cure-all for everything. Healing spells are usually very specific and used as treatments for very specific illnesses and injuries; Eselne probably would have lived with a week of 500cc of saline solution and some Ringer's lactate.

There is, I will modestly mention, an upcoming bit of medical humor in Book Six where the Legion's Chief Physician visits a badly injured Chirine; I manage to get nearly killed rescuing somebody from a burning building, and the day after sees Yours Truly getting a mass visit by the local medical association to see what they can do for me. (There is much humor, as Tinaliya are involved; they like to fix things, and have many, many solutions in search of problems to be solved.) You'll get a chance to see the leading edge of modern medical technology in action, with asides from the medical people about how regular visits to one's physicians are a vital part of a multi-phasic interdisciplinary approach to health care. (I'm also having a for-real cutter look the thing over, so I can get a real medical opinion on the subject.)

Does this help? Do you need something more specific?

 Excellent, thank you!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 09, 2016, 06:56:51 PM
Uncle,

Could you briefly go through the different parts of a Legion? Such as your All-Consuming Flame...What and who went along for the march on the sakbe roads with you as you served The Petal Throne? Thanks again.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 09, 2016, 08:52:57 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;912162
Uncle,

Could you briefly go through the different parts of a Legion? Such as your All-Consuming Flame...What and who went along for the march on the sakbe roads with you as you served The Petal Throne? Thanks again.

H:0)


Oh, sure. (This is Tsolyani practice, by the way.) First, you have your line cohorts; 400 men, in 20 man sections, each led by a Hereksa, for a total of  20 of these officers; each cohort has a Kasi, so you have however many of these as you have cohorts. All-Consuming Flame is not an Imperial legion; we're Engsvanyali, with a possible connection to Bednjallan times; we're still organized like a Tsolyani legion, though. Unlike a Tsolyani legion - with the exception of Storm of Fire, a mixed legion - we have the following cohorts: I and II, heavy infantry pikemen; III and IV, medium infantry (Vriddi);  V, 'guards' troops of various types; VI, archers; VII, crossbowmen. We're a mercenary legion, and I got them as personal troops from Phil when I was in Hekellu. I can give you the miniatures information, if you like; I have the legion built out to full strength.

Now, all the extras. Every legion has a headquarters, and how much money the legion has will determine what the General will have as support people; these are normally not soldiers. He does have two each of junior 'field' officers, and one to five 'staff officers' who are usually clan-cousins or friends; a very big problem with the legions is that there is no real organized staff to handle medical, logistics, and commissary needs. For my general, I hired these people for his personal staff / rtainers, and they dealt with the legion as his employees. In my legion, they are on the establishment - I used Sir John Hawkwood's 'White Company' as a model for this (Thank you, Gordy!) - and either 'enlisted' or 'officers'; the Tsolyani don't make much of a distinction between the two, as we do. So, I have on the 'establishment':

Household staff:
Lord Chamberlain and his officers (herald, accountant, master of the revels, etc.)
Bearers - move all the baggage, includes chlen carts and fodder; I have my own herd and drivers
Porters- handle internal security in the HQ
Court Ladies / Ladies-in-waiting - serve Their Ladyships, who have a habit of coming on campaign with me
Personal bodyguards
Court Pages - never play games of skill and chance with them; just sayin'...

Adjutant's staff
Adjutant and his officers (quartermaster, commissary, scribes)
Provost and section of troops
'Openers of the Way' - investigators of mysterious things
Chamber of Torments (we have ways of making you talk)
Duty sections (2) of HQ guards troops
Supply section
Sapper section

Medical staff
Physicians, apothecaries, 'nurses', 'orderlies'

Sorcery staff
Assorted priests, priestesses, and magic users

Secret staff
None of your business, thank you

Naval staff
we have a couple of small galleys for local patrol work; several officers, about 75 sailors

I think there's something like 250 people on the staff list. So there's quite a lot of baggage involved with a legion. An ordinary traveller, like I've been, would probably have something like 20 to 40 bearers and drivers when going between cities.

Does this help, at all? You can see the possiblities for adventures, too! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 09, 2016, 09:25:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;912176
Oh, sure. (This is Tsolyani practice, by the way.) First, you have your line cohorts; 400 men, in 20 man sections, each led by a Hereksa, for a total of  20 of these officers; each cohort has a Kasi, so you have however many of these as you have cohorts. All-Consuming Flame is not an Imperial legion; we're Engsvanyali, with a possible connection to Bednjallan times; we're still organized like a Tsolyani legion, though. Unlike a Tsolyani legion - with the exception of Storm of Fire, a mixed legion - we have the following cohorts: I and II, heavy infantry pikemen; III and IV, medium infantry (Vriddi);  V, 'guards' troops of various types; VI, archers; VII, crossbowmen. We're a mercenary legion, and I got them as personal troops from Phil when I was in Hekellu. I can give you the miniatures information, if you like; I have the legion built out to full strength.

Now, all the extras. Every legion has a headquarters, and how much money the legion has will determine what the General will have as support people; these are normally not soldiers. He does have two each of junior 'field' officers, and one to five 'staff officers' who are usually clan-cousins or friends; a very big problem with the legions is that there is no real organized staff to handle medical, logistics, and commissary needs. For my general, I hired these people for his personal staff / rtainers, and they dealt with the legion as his employees. In my legion, they are on the establishment - I used Sir John Hawkwood's 'White Company' as a model for this (Thank you, Gordy!) - and either 'enlisted' or 'officers'; the Tsolyani don't make much of a distinction between the two, as we do. So, I have on the 'establishment':

Household staff:
Lord Chamberlain and his officers (herald, accountant, master of the revels, etc.)
Bearers - move all the baggage, includes chlen carts and fodder; I have my own herd and drivers
Porters- handle internal security in the HQ
Court Ladies / Ladies-in-waiting - serve Their Ladyships, who have a habit of coming on campaign with me
Personal bodyguards
Court Pages - never play games of skill and chance with them; just sayin'...

Adjutant's staff
Adjutant and his officers (quartermaster, commissary, scribes)
Provost and section of troops
'Openers of the Way' - investigators of mysterious things
Chamber of Torments (we have ways of making you talk)
Duty sections (2) of HQ guards troops
Supply section
Sapper section

Medical staff
Physicians, apothecaries, 'nurses', 'orderlies'

Sorcery staff
Assorted priests, priestesses, and magic users

Secret staff
None of your business, thank you

Naval staff
we have a couple of small galleys for local patrol work; several officers, about 75 sailors

I think there's something like 250 people on the staff list. So there's quite a lot of baggage involved with a legion. An ordinary traveller, like I've been, would probably have something like 20 to 40 bearers and drivers when going between cities.

Does this help, at all? You can see the possiblities for adventures, too! :)


Fantastic!!! One more follow-up question. How long would a march take for the whole legion from lets say Jakalla to Bey Su(normal march and emergency)? Thank you much.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Erotectic on August 09, 2016, 10:16:55 PM
Hi chirine!

Can you tell us more about the writing process behind the rules in *Swords & Glory*, Vol. 2. You have told us a great deal about how professor ran his games, but did he actually design the S&G rules? Did he write the text explaining the rules? To what degree was that set of rules a collective creation on the part of people who weren't the professor?

Thanks!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 09, 2016, 11:04:25 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;912181
Fantastic!!! One more follow-up question. How long would a march take for the whole legion from lets say Jakalla to Bey Su(normal march and emergency)? Thank you much.

H:0)

From Jakalla to Bey Sy, not much.  Bey Sy to Sunraya, forever and a day.  At least it seemed that way.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 10, 2016, 06:58:47 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;912176
Secret staff
None of your business, thank you

I assume there are variations on how "Secret" societies / staff identify each other?
Can you give some examples?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on August 10, 2016, 08:13:37 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;912231
I assume there are variations on how "Secret" societies / staff identify each other?
Can you give some examples?
=

I'd bet at least one of the examples involves "who has the most elaborate dress with the Top Secret Sign (TM) of the Society Of Secretness (TM)". It wouldn't be Tsolyanu otherwise:)!

Also see: secret police in Tsolyanu and Secret Language of priests of Ksarul, earlier in this thread;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 10, 2016, 06:13:13 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;912181
Fantastic!!! One more follow-up question. How long would a march take for the whole legion from lets say Jakalla to Bey Su(normal march and emergency)? Thank you much.

H:0)

Each hex on the big maps is 100 Tsan / 133.333 across, to it takes a while. We used to figure a week to march across a hex, so Jakalla to Bey Su would take maybe three months of marching. (See also the Sourcebook, on this.) In a crisis, we'd have shipped the troops by river, and gotten there in maybe a month, all told. This is why there are the great regional military centers, and it's rare to move troops from front to front - the logistics are just too difficult to make it worthwhile. See also Edwin Luttwak's book on the grand strategy of the Roman Empire - a book that Phil introduced me to.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 10, 2016, 06:31:23 PM
Quote from: Erotectic;912186
Hi chirine!

Can you tell us more about the writing process behind the rules in *Swords & Glory*, Vol. 2. You have told us a great deal about how professor ran his games, but did he actually design the S&G rules? Did he write the text explaining the rules? To what degree was that set of rules a collective creation on the part of people who weren't the professor?

Thanks!

Oh, gods. We really liked EPT, but Phil got it into his head that he really needed to have a 'more realistic' and 'more detailed' set of RPG rules. he started an RPG called "Skein of Destiny", which had all of the information and game mechanics that later became the three volumes of S&G all in one book; he'd tell you all about chlen beasts, for example, then he'd give all the rules needed by players to deal with them, and then he'd give all the rules that the GM needed to run them in an adventure. He got up to 450+ pages of manuscript, and then realized that the thing was, for all intents and purposes, unplayable by anyone - back then, all he had was a typewriter, and so doing an index was going to be just as big a task as doing the game. So, he abandoned it (I got the manuscript out of the trash) and he redid the information and game rules as the three volumes of S&G. It comes to over 950+ pages of material; the combat and sorcery summaries, which are very playable games in and of themselves, are something like twenty and thirty pages long respectively.

Yes, he designed the whole thing by himself, which led to Dave Arneson telling him, quote, "Phil, you can't design rules in a vacuum." Phil simply dropped the manuscript on the table one night, as was his usual habit, and we used it to roll up PCs - and then never really used it again, as the number-crunching was simply too much, even for Phil. The Sourcebook is wonderful, but the RPG is a pain to use - even for me, and even after all these years.

I don't know why he did the thing. I suspect it was in reaction to Gary's various writingd in various places, and Dave's "Adventures in Fantasy"; and it may have had something to do with AD&D. Phil was always a very solitary writer, and we'd first see a book when he'd wave the manuscript around and he'd sent a copy off to a publisher. S&G was, to the best of my knowledge, never really play-tested, and not really used by Phil in his own campaign. However, the game is a monument to Phil's view of how he thought his world worked, and how it could work in the context of an RPG. There was a lot of our input into the world itself, but very rarely into any rules that he wrote.

He played a very simple game - 'you roll, I roll' - and then he'd just get on with the adventure. He would tell the tale, and run the adventure, and not look at the tables and such; he'd just do it.

Does this help, at all?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Erotectic on August 10, 2016, 06:34:50 PM
chirine,

That was precisely what I wanted to know. Thanks!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 10, 2016, 06:41:11 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;912231
I assume there are variations on how "Secret" societies / staff identify each other?
Can you give some examples?
=

Oh, yes, very much so. In the early years, the OAL used little magical tablets as identification; during the late civil wars the various factions of the OAL used rings with different symbols so you could tell who was who. (It got very complicated.) My particular secret society uses the three-fingered gesture of the Flame - a hand across an upper arm - and the Sarku people make the sign of the Worm, and so on. All sorts of code phrases, secret gestures, passwords, etc. are used. (Ninja hand signals are a good analogue to all of this.) Some of this is in the novels, and in the Sourcebook; I can try to look up more, if you need some.

My own secret section - The Department of Assassinations and Obfuscations - has their own, but they won't tell me what they are. (They take operational security very seriously.) Once a month, I get to look them over, and I have to remember their faces. Most of which, as might be expected, are very unremarkable and very forgettable. I do get the weekly password, though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 10, 2016, 06:41:42 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;912237
I'd bet at least one of the examples involves "who has the most elaborate dress with the Top Secret Sign (TM) of the Society Of Secretness (TM)". It wouldn't be Tsolyanu otherwise:)!

Also see: secret police in Tsolyanu and Secret Language of priests of Ksarul, earlier in this thread;).

Why, yes! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 10, 2016, 06:44:19 PM
Quote from: Erotectic;912313
chirine,

That was precisely what I wanted to know. Thanks!

You're welcome! S&G sort of just came out of nowhere, as far as we were concerned; I happened to find about "Skein" when I was emptying the trash in his office.

This is one of those mysteries that I suspect we'll probably never know what he had had in mind at the time; he never really talked about his creative process - he just did things that interested him, and then he drop them on us. It was always surprising...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 10, 2016, 06:46:40 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;912188
From Jakalla to Bey Sy, not much.  Bey Sy to Sunraya, forever and a day.  At least it seemed that way.


So what happened when you arrived in Sunraya...???

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 10, 2016, 06:50:57 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;912309
Each hex on the big maps is 100 Tsan / 133.333 across, to it takes a while. We used to figure a week to march across a hex, so Jakalla to Bey Su would take maybe three months of marching. (See also the Sourcebook, on this.) In a crisis, we'd have shipped the troops by river, and gotten there in maybe a month, all told. This is why there are the great regional military centers, and it's rare to move troops from front to front - the logistics are just too difficult to make it worthwhile. See also Edwin Luttwak's book on the grand strategy of the Roman Empire - a book that Phil introduced me to.


Oh boy. Luttwak...Wife will be happy for me(more packages)!!! Thank you Uncle. She will eventually want to meet you...

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 10, 2016, 06:59:31 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;912318
So what happened when you arrived in Sunraya...???

H:0)

He arrived on foot with his legion. I arrived by boat, with dear old Harchar. We had a lovely breakfast in one of the disputed bastions, catching up on old times and getting the news that some lovely young lady had the hots for him and that I'd gotten married. So had Vrisa, for that matter.

(Wait a minute; Sunraya is in the middle of a desert, thousands of miles from any ocean.)
(Yes, it is. Welcome to Tekumel, where nothing is as simple as you might think, and when you involve Dave Arneson they become very un-simple.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 10, 2016, 07:00:18 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;912319
Oh boy. Luttwak...Wife will be happy for me(more packages)!!! Thank you Uncle. She will eventually want to meet you...

H;0)

Oh, dear; I'm sorry. I'll make sure to get your Missus something nice... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 10, 2016, 07:17:10 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;912321
He arrived on foot with his legion. I arrived by boat, with dear old Harchar. We had a lovely breakfast in one of the disputed bastions, catching up on old times and getting the news that some lovely young lady had the hots for him and that I'd gotten married. So had Vrisa, for that matter.

(Wait a minute; Sunraya is in the middle of a desert, thousands of miles from any ocean.)
(Yes, it is. Welcome to Tekumel, where nothing is as simple as you might think, and when you involve Dave Arneson they become very un-simple.)


Ha ha!!! I was waiting for The Glorious General to complain of the sand. I know he loves it so...!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 10, 2016, 07:21:28 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;912322
Oh, dear; I'm sorry. I'll make sure to get your Missus something nice... :)


Good advice. I was just browsing...I saw another one by him as well on the Byzantine Empire...they seem to have retained their value!!! More than one gift in order...!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 10, 2016, 08:35:42 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;912326
Good advice. I was just browsing...I saw another one by him as well on the Byzantine Empire...they seem to have retained their value!!! More than one gift in order...!!!

H;0)

Oh, dear. I do like his books, as he brings a different viewpoint to the subject...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 11, 2016, 01:19:42 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;912312
Oh, gods. We really liked EPT, but Phil got it into his head that he really needed to have a 'more realistic' and 'more detailed' set of RPG rules. he started an RPG called "Skein of Destiny", which had all of the information and game mechanics that later became the three volumes of S&G all in one book; he'd tell you all about chlen beasts, for example, then he'd give all the rules needed by players to deal with them, and then he'd give all the rules that the GM needed to run them in an adventure. He got up to 450+ pages of manuscript, and then realized that the thing was, for all intents and purposes, unplayable by anyone - back then, all he had was a typewriter, and so doing an index was going to be just as big a task as doing the game. So, he abandoned it (I got the manuscript out of the trash) and he redid the information and game rules as the three volumes of S&G. It comes to over 950+ pages of material; the combat and sorcery summaries, which are very playable games in and of themselves, are something like twenty and thirty pages long respectively.

Yes, he designed the whole thing by himself, which led to Dave Arneson telling him, quote, "Phil, you can't design rules in a vacuum." Phil simply dropped the manuscript on the table one night, as was his usual habit, and we used it to roll up PCs - and then never really used it again, as the number-crunching was simply too much, even for Phil. The Sourcebook is wonderful, but the RPG is a pain to use - even for me, and even after all these years.

I don't know why he did the thing. I suspect it was in reaction to Gary's various writingd in various places, and Dave's "Adventures in Fantasy"; and it may have had something to do with AD&D. Phil was always a very solitary writer, and we'd first see a book when he'd wave the manuscript around and he'd sent a copy off to a publisher. S&G was, to the best of my knowledge, never really play-tested, and not really used by Phil in his own campaign. However, the game is a monument to Phil's view of how he thought his world worked, and how it could work in the context of an RPG. There was a lot of our input into the world itself, but very rarely into any rules that he wrote.

He played a very simple game - 'you roll, I roll' - and then he'd just get on with the adventure. He would tell the tale, and run the adventure, and not look at the tables and such; he'd just do it.

Does this help, at all?


I think at least a part of what led to "Sore and Gory" was that the zeitgeist of the time was very much "Rules good, more rules more gooder."  I suspect Phil was infected by some of his other players.

Here's something to reflect on... if you took the original 3 Little Brown Books of Original D&D and turned them into full size pages, assuming the same size typeface, the entire game would fit in one 64 page booklet.  With about six pages to spare, in fact, so you could even clarify some of the fuzzy points.

This is a large part of the reason why when I see modern games saying "This new RPG is only 486 pages," my reaction is "Oh my aching asshole."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 11, 2016, 06:46:15 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;912365
I think at least a part of what led to "Sore and Gory" was that the zeitgeist of the time was very much "Rules good, more rules more gooder."  I suspect Phil was infected by some of his other players.

Here's something to reflect on... if you took the original 3 Little Brown Books of Original D&D and turned them into full size pages, assuming the same size typeface, the entire game would fit in one 64 page booklet.  With about six pages to spare, in fact, so you could even clarify some of the fuzzy points.

This is a large part of the reason why when I see modern games saying "This new RPG is only 486 pages," my reaction is "Oh my aching asshole."

I think you may be right; those guys did have some odd notions about games.

Agreed - the two 'summary' booklets make a perfectly good RPG in less then fifty pages. Everything else is source material...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 11, 2016, 06:52:15 AM
chirine ba kal
Are there restriction on using undead people for normal chores around the empire?
I recall an issue with using undead troops but what about using them for jobs that just require manual labor?
If there are restrictions, as I suspect there are, how are they enforced?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 11, 2016, 06:19:44 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;912381
chirine ba kal
Are there restriction on using undead people for normal chores around the empire?
I recall an issue with using undead troops but what about using them for jobs that just require manual labor?
If there are restrictions, as I suspect there are, how are they enforced?
=

Wow! Talk about an exciting question! :)

Use of the Undead for anything, above ground and in the daylight is strictly forbidden by the Great Concordat, and is considered to be a very serious offense. This is why Qutmu got the high ride, in front of Sunraya.

Now, having said that, what the Temples of Sarku and Durritlamish do within their precincts and within the city of Sarku is up to them. Visitors of other faiths are not encouraged to drop by, so I would expect - based on our adventures with Phil and his novels, especially the pretty scary night we spent being chased by the Worm Prince and his minions around the temple of Sarku in Bey Sy - that these two temples would use their servitors for all sorts of jobs, from guards to construction crews to janitors. 'Dead men tell no tales', as they say, and I can see the priests and priestesses of these two temples delegating all the 'manual labor' to the uncomplaining and untalkative undead. (Ksarul and Gruganu prefer to use their artificial life-forms, like the Qol, for this kind of thing, so you can usually tell what temple you're dealing with by what you run into.)

Enforcement is by the Council of the Priesthoods, and then by the Imperium; the former usually brings the complaint, and the latter destroys the offenders. Normally, as long as the use of the Undead is discreet and within bounds, there's no issue - 'what happens in the Underworld stays in the underworld' - but if the local agriculture clans suddenly found Undead doing the shores on the Temple farm, they would complain about the loss of their ancient rights to the Council and the local Governor would send in the troops to wipe out the offenders.

So, while it isn't supposed to happen, Phil would simply send in the adventurers to see what was what and let the Mr'ur fall where they may. One would like to survive long enough to make one's report, but...

Does this help explain things?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 11, 2016, 06:28:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;912431
Does this help explain things?

Yes, and timely too.
I have to assume that witnesses to such a thing would be at risk themselves.
'Dead men tell no tales' applying here as well.
Discrete people of the same basic "alignment" may be at less risk to join the 'work crew'?
A wink and a nod going a long way between clans with 'an understanding'.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 12, 2016, 06:36:45 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;912433
Yes, and timely too.
I have to assume that witnesses to such a thing would be at risk themselves.
'Dead men tell no tales' applying here as well.
Discrete people of the same basic "alignment" may be at less risk to join the 'work crew'?
A wink and a nod going a long way between clans with 'an understanding'.
=

Yep, that's pretty much it.
One thing - non-worshippers of Sarku and Durritlamish woult not be made Undead; that's a reward for the faithful, not for the unbelievers. The latter are simply food for the faithful...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 12, 2016, 06:46:34 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;912483
... food for the faithful...

Oh, I Like That.
Excellent chapter title.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 12, 2016, 10:19:38 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;912483
Yep, that's pretty much it.
One thing - non-worshippers of Sarku and Durritlamish woult not be made Undead; that's a reward for the faithful, not for the unbelievers. The latter are simply food for the faithful...


Uncle,

So depending on the prestige, rank, or faithfulness of the individual that would determine the type of undead one would become?

Any case that you know of where someone was made undead against their will as punishment or a mishap maybe? [Not including those matching wits with Srukarum, or some other demon...]

Only one punishment for those that brazen to commit such crimes against the concordant...The high road!!!

Thanks,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 12, 2016, 11:44:18 AM
Not to mention even the clans whose members worship Sarku still have people in them, which equals mouths to feed, which equals employment needed.  Chirine touched on this briefly but it's worth reiterating; using undead to till fields (et al) puts people out of work.

Cf. slaves and their "right to work" in the Roman empire.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 12, 2016, 12:04:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;912483
Yep, that's pretty much it.
One thing - non-worshippers of Sarku and Durritlamish woult not be made Undead; that's a reward for the faithful, not for the unbelievers. The latter are simply food for the faithful...


Uncle,

Do the "faithful" have to eat? Or is it just a remnant of their former life?

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 12, 2016, 02:22:21 PM
Uncle,

My first question in regard to Prince of Skulls...Chapter 3, pg22. The Vleshgayal have some kind of six-legged greyish/white tracking creature. I checked the beastiary. I found no such creature. Unless I missed it...Have you ever encountered or heard of such a creature? Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 13, 2016, 09:24:22 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;912496
Uncle,

So depending on the prestige, rank, or faithfulness of the individual that would determine the type of undead one would become?

Any case that you know of where someone was made undead against their will as punishment or a mishap maybe? [Not including those matching wits with Srukarum, or some other demon...]

Only one punishment for those that brazen to commit such crimes against the concordant...The high road!!!

Thanks,

H:0)


Yes, pretty much; making Undead is a long and expensive process, which takes a lot of sorcery; the 'product' isn't used for trivial purposes.

Nope; never heard of this. One normally just got very dead when crossing the Temple of Sarku.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 13, 2016, 09:27:14 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;912505
Not to mention even the clans whose members worship Sarku still have people in them, which equals mouths to feed, which equals employment needed.  Chirine touched on this briefly but it's worth reiterating; using undead to till fields (et al) puts people out of work.

Cf. slaves and their "right to work" in the Roman empire.

This. Use of Undead out of the Underworlds will probably cause somebody to get cranky...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 13, 2016, 09:29:58 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;912508
Uncle,

Do the "faithful" have to eat? Or is it just a remnant of their former life?

H:0)

The Undead don't seem to need to eat for nourishment; they do like to kill, and they do like to use their teeth, so I think it's a 'frightfulness' thing with the temple.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 13, 2016, 09:38:38 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;912539
Uncle,

My first question in regard to Prince of Skulls...Chapter 3, pg22. The Vleshgayal have some kind of six-legged greyish/white tracking creature. I checked the beastiary. I found no such creature. Unless I missed it...Have you ever encountered or heard of such a creature? Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks.

H:0)

The Beastiary predates Prince of Skulls, so it's not in there; it's also a 'one-off', as well.

We did see these things once, when Eyloa's infallible navigational skills and in-depth expertise with ancient technology landed us in a Shunned Ones city. The things seem to hunt by a combination of infra-red sensing and being able to sense living beings. Think hunting gods with really bad attitudes. The only good news is that if they do bite you, human blood gives them very bad indigestion as the chemical basis is too different.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 13, 2016, 10:40:54 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;912661
The Beastiary predates Prince of Skulls, so it's not in there; it's also a 'one-off', as well.

We did see these things once, when Eyloa's infallible navigational skills and in-depth expertise with ancient technology landed us in a Shunned Ones city. The things seem to hunt by a combination of infra-red sensing and being able to sense living beings. Think hunting gods with really bad attitudes. The only good news is that if they do bite you, human blood gives them very bad indigestion as the chemical basis is too different.


One follow-up question...Would these creatures have the same limitations in regard to breathing as their owners? It didn't mention them with any special equipment...Thanks.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 13, 2016, 11:24:12 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;912670
One follow-up question...Would these creatures have the same limitations in regard to breathing as their owners? It didn't mention them with any special equipment...Thanks.

H:0)

They don't seem to; the six legs, Phil once said, mark beings as coming from a specific region of planets in Humanspace, and two- and four-legged from another. So, I'd guess that these hunting animals are beasts that the Shunned Ones found on Tekumel, and adapted to their needs - which is why they don't have to have the different atmosphere.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 13, 2016, 11:28:31 AM
Going to be a very busy weekend; mounted infantry and light cavalry vs. player-characters this afternoon, and ships of the line tomorrow.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 13, 2016, 12:08:15 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;912676
Going to be a very busy weekend; mounted infantry and light cavalry vs. player-characters this afternoon, and ships of the line tomorrow.


Enjoy!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 13, 2016, 08:25:10 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;912676
Going to be a very busy weekend; mounted infantry and light cavalry vs. player-characters this afternoon, and ships of the line tomorrow.

Considering that my character is friends with their characters, I'm looking forward to this far, far more than I should. :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 13, 2016, 10:09:20 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;912508
Uncle,

Do the "faithful" have to eat? Or is it just a remnant of their former life?

H:0)


Mighty Hrugga,

I found this from Phil on the subject of undead at Blue Room site.

"The Undead function much as described in the source materials. There are not many "game devices" that are there
just to make them interesting -- or to make them more like ancient Earth ideas of the "Undead." No mirrors or appearing as bats, of course, and jabbing a Mrur or a Hra with a wooden stake would probably kill it if you hit the right spot -- but would otherwise wound it or just discommode it.  

Fluids (blood, mostly, though some need other liquids to survive) are indeed needed to sustain life and energy. There is no real crucial property in blood that distinguishes it from a milkshake for a Hra. It is just convenient for keeping the creature from desiccating. It's also nutritious!...

... The Shedra are fuelled by the nutrients in their victims' flesh, just as some other inhabitants of the Underworlds. - Phil"


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 14, 2016, 12:48:04 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;912678
Enjoy!!!

H:0)

Thank you! I will, and I did. It has been a wonderful day! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 14, 2016, 12:56:27 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;912717
Considering that my character is friends with their characters, I'm looking forward to this far, far more than I should. :D


Just now back in - 1145 local time - from a wonderful day. The short form is that I won, they won, and nobody got hurt; they did learn many, many valuable lessons about how to think tactically, how to manages large groups of PCs and NPCs, and - most importantly - to ask the vital question of "what do those people over there have in mind?"

I had a really wonderful time; I did a lot of teaching, both about mounted tactics - putting out vedettes, and protecting your baggage; think Arsuf, here - and telling stories about how we gamed all those years ago at Coffmann as learning aids for the players. What I loved to see the most was the looks of comprehension on people's faces as they were able to apply the lessons I was teaching them to their situation - these are very quick, very clever, and very smart people, and I think they did a wonderful job of dealing with the threat I was posing them.

A number of very valuable lessons were learned, and they got an insight into how we managed to survive the best that Phil (and Dave, and Gary) could throw at us. It was, in short, as good a game session as the one we had at Gary Con, last year... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 14, 2016, 01:02:43 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;912721
Mighty Hrugga,

I found this from Phil on the subject of undead at Blue Room site.

"The Undead function much as described in the source materials. There are not many "game devices" that are there
just to make them interesting -- or to make them more like ancient Earth ideas of the "Undead." No mirrors or appearing as bats, of course, and jabbing a Mrur or a Hra with a wooden stake would probably kill it if you hit the right spot -- but would otherwise wound it or just discommode it.  

Fluids (blood, mostly, though some need other liquids to survive) are indeed needed to sustain life and energy. There is no real crucial property in blood that distinguishes it from a milkshake for a Hra. It is just convenient for keeping the creature from desiccating. It's also nutritious!...

... The Shedra are fuelled by the nutrients in their victims' flesh, just as some other inhabitants of the Underworlds. - Phil"


Shemek

Very, very good find; this comes from after our time gaming with Phil, and explains why the creepy little things were always trying to sink their rotting teeth into us. Makes perfect sense, and tallies with what we knew at the time - one of the big problems of being PCs in his campaign was that we were usually in too much of a rush to get away from the latest horror that we didn't think to ask a lot of questions. And Phil, being a canny GM, wasn't all that forthcoming with information - can't imagine why...:)

The nasty part about the usual Undead is that they do get slower and less agile when they 'dry out'; Shedra are a different case, 'cause they are 'less dead' then Mr'ur or similar. They tended to be a lot less intelligent, too. Really high-end Undead are a very real threat, in our experience.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 14, 2016, 01:09:37 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;912735
Very, very good find; this comes from after our time gaming with Phil, and explains why the creepy little things were always trying to sink their rotting teeth into us. Makes perfect sense, and tallies with what we knew at the time - one of the big problems of being PCs in his campaign was that we were usually in too much of a rush to get away from the latest horror that we didn't think to ask a lot of questions. And Phil, being a canny GM, wasn't all that forthcoming with information - can't imagine why...:)

The nasty part about the usual Undead is that they do get slower and less agile when they 'dry out'; Shedra are a different case, 'cause they are 'less dead' then Mr'ur or similar. They tended to be a lot less intelligent, too. Really high-end Undead are a very real threat, in our experience.

Damn straight.  The really powerful ones are almost undistinguishable from living humans except for their dryness and grey skin tone, and the bastards keep the skills they had in life.

Try fighting somebody who's had 300 years to practice Arruche.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 14, 2016, 01:51:35 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;912721
Mighty Hrugga,

I found this from Phil on the subject of undead at Blue Room site.

"The Undead function much as described in the source materials. There are not many "game devices" that are there
just to make them interesting -- or to make them more like ancient Earth ideas of the "Undead." No mirrors or appearing as bats, of course, and jabbing a Mrur or a Hra with a wooden stake would probably kill it if you hit the right spot -- but would otherwise wound it or just discommode it.  

Fluids (blood, mostly, though some need other liquids to survive) are indeed needed to sustain life and energy. There is no real crucial property in blood that distinguishes it from a milkshake for a Hra. It is just convenient for keeping the creature from desiccating. It's also nutritious!...

... The Shedra are fuelled by the nutrients in their victims' flesh, just as some other inhabitants of the Underworlds. - Phil"


Shemek


Many thanks Lord Shemek!!! I just happened to be searching the archives today as well. I did some reading about Pechano...It made mention of one Shemek hiTankolel!!! I should like to make a hunting trip there. Maybe even brave the Sideways City!!! Any advice good Lord...???

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 14, 2016, 11:14:37 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;912735
Very, very good find; this comes from after our time gaming with Phil, and explains why the creepy little things were always trying to sink their rotting teeth into us. Makes perfect sense, and tallies with what we knew at the time - one of the big problems of being PCs in his campaign was that we were usually in too much of a rush to get away from the latest horror that we didn't think to ask a lot of questions. And Phil, being a canny GM, wasn't all that forthcoming with information - can't imagine why...:)

The nasty part about the usual Undead is that they do get slower and less agile when they 'dry out'; Shedra are a different case, 'cause they are 'less dead' then Mr'ur or similar. They tended to be a lot less intelligent, too. Really high-end Undead are a very real threat, in our experience.


I saw the original posts from Hrugga and you and I was curious if Phil had any thing to say on the subject. According to what he posted on the Blue Room he had a lot more to say, but I am not sure if he ever got around to writing it down. One more thing that I forgot to mention is according to Phil the "stench of the undead" seems to be quite a "powerful" aroma. :eek:

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 14, 2016, 11:18:16 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;912736
Try fighting somebody who's had 300 years to practice Arruche.

Exactly. This is why I have always played the "greater" undead as super tough PC's, and why my players tend to give such creatures a very, very wide berth. 300 years of Arruche is bad enough, but what about 300 years of spell casting experience and research?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 14, 2016, 11:23:20 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;912740
Many thanks Lord Shemek!!! I just happened to be searching the archives today as well. I did some reading about Pechano...It made mention of one Shemek hiTankolel!!! I should like to make a hunting trip there. Maybe even brave the Sideways City!!! Any advice good Lord...???

H:0)

Mighty Hrugga of the Epics,

The only advice I can give is if you go hunting in Pechano make sure you’re well armed, don’t go alone, bring some local guides, and don’t buy any land from a local!:D

For me Ssyrayal/Ssurayal (aka "The Sideways City), and Ssuganar for that matter, have always been as much of an opponent to the group as have the Ssu. I have always pictured them as kind of like R’lyeh strewn on a hilly, grassy plain, but less “non-Euclidian geometry” being present at Ssyrayal. Lots of “Dex” rolls when climbing over the ruins; lots of saves to avoid traps left by bands of Ssu that still comb the ruins; lots of saves against scratches from plants (Food of the Ssu anyone?) and insect bites; and lots of saves versus fear/panic in order for the players to avoid running away as fast they can in blind fear. These hazards get worse the further in the party goes. Basically, I treat the ruins as if they possess an innate malevolence, as if they were “alive”, a hate manifested so to speak. Coupled with this there are the usual bands of the “foe of man” nosing around. As Phil said about Ssuganar, but it also applies to Ssyrayal: “…there is more danger than even a strong party can handle.”

(Check your PM.)

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 14, 2016, 12:30:44 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;912776
Mighty Hrugga of the Epics,

The only advice I can give is if you go hunting in Pechano make sure you’re well armed, don’t go alone, bring some local guides, and don’t buy any land from a local!:D

For me Ssyrayal/Ssurayal (aka "The Sideways City), and Ssuganar for that matter, have always been as much of an opponent to the group as have the Ssu. I have always pictured them as kind of like R’lyeh strewn on a hilly, grassy plain, but less “non-Euclidian geometry” being present at Ssyrayal. Lots of “Dex” rolls when climbing over the ruins; lots of saves to avoid traps left by bands of Ssu that still comb the ruins; lots of saves against scratches from plants (Food of the Ssu anyone?) and insect bites; and lots of saves versus fear/panic in order for the players to avoid running away as fast they can in blind fear. These hazards get worse the further in the party goes. Basically, I treat the ruins as if they possess an innate malevolence, as if they were “alive”, a hate manifested so to speak. Coupled with this there are the usual bands of the “foe of man” nosing around. As Phil said about Ssuganar, but it also applies to Ssyrayal: “…there is more danger than even a strong party can handle.”

(Check you PM.)

Shemek

A hundred Thank yous great Lord!!! Yes!!! I see what you mean. I will make sure when I pass through, that I spend my kaitars on anything but my own piece of Pechano...!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 14, 2016, 03:33:09 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;912784
A hundred Thank yous great Lord!!! Yes!!! I see what you mean. I will make sure when I pass through, that I spend my kaitars on anything but my own piece of Pechano...!!!

H;0)


You're very welcome! Good idea. Even though the Pechani are stereotypically seen as overly serious and somewhat crude, hare-brained rustics by many of their "more sophisticated" neighbours I think that a lot of this is an act they put on to scam unwary foreigners. Just ask the Salarvyani how much they like doing business in Mechaneno or Teshkoa. People locked in perpetual warfare with an enemy determined to exterminate them don't usually worry about the "frivolities" and niceties associated with more peaceful lands.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 14, 2016, 09:09:43 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;912774
I saw the original posts from Hrugga and you and I was curious if Phil had any thing to say on the subject. According to what he posted on the Blue Room he had a lot more to say, but I am not sure if he ever got around to writing it down. One more thing that I forgot to mention is according to Phil the "stench of the undead" seems to be quite a "powerful" aroma. :eek:

Shemek


Sadly, I don't think he did; there were a lot of subjects that he'd mentioned that he'd wanted to cover, over the years, but time just caught up with him

Yep; they do stink to high heaven which was often the only warning we had of their being just around the corner.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 14, 2016, 09:11:14 PM
Back in after today's action set in the aftermath of Trafalgar; great game, but I hit my stamina limit late in the afternoon. So, now I know just how far I can push myself; no more back-to-back days for me, I guess... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 14, 2016, 09:55:39 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;912872
Sadly, I don't think he did; there were a lot of subjects that he'd mentioned that he'd wanted to cover, over the years, but time just caught up with him

Yep; they do stink to high heaven which was often the only warning we had of their being just around the corner.


Stink!!! That would depend on which temple you belong to. It could be divine if you were a follower of the Worm...!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 15, 2016, 09:45:13 PM
Chirine,

My game has been chugging along full speed, and I've decided to introduce some non-humans into mix. I went on  my favourite resource looking for some info on the Pe Choi and I found this great post from Phil. I figured I would share it here. Is there any more  that you can add to what the kindly professor has said?


"... The Tsolyani consider the Pe Choi of Do Chaka to be Tsolyani citizens. They are ruled and taxed and treated much like anybody else in the Empire. The Pe Choi are smart enough to keep quiet and not make waves; the Tsolyani, in turn, are smart enough not to press too hard. The "wild" Pe Choi of the inner Chakan forests are fearsome fighters: able to strike, raid, loot, and return to their jungle fastnesses quickly. There has been a sort of understanding between the humans and this species that goes back millennia. The Pachi Lei, on the other hand, are considered regular citizens, who are treated identically with human citizens. The Mu'ugalavyani consider their Pe Choi to be regular citizens of a slightly lower quality than humans, and they thus do not appoint them to higher posts of government, etc. The Swamp Folk, on the other hand, are used by the Mu'ugalavyani in their navy and hence obtain higher positions and pay. The Pygmy Folk of Yan Kor consider themselves an autonomous enclave; they treat their human neighbours with aloof politeness and vice-versa. The Tinaliya in Livyanu are similar: their underground cities are almost completely free of Livyani control, which appeals to the Livyani too. The new conquerors after the Plague (i.e. the Mu'ugalavyani) have not had time or inclination yet to oppress the little Tinaliya, but this will almost certainly occur -- the Muu'ugalavyani are officious and blind when it comes to intercultural, interracial, inter-whatever, sensitivity.

The Ahoggya are intractable. They obey human laws when in human cities, and they remain aloof from human affairs in their own lands (right up to completely ignoring humans among them -- not even offering a bowl of water to a thirsty human visitor, but just letting the poor fellow find it for himself!). Their stilt-villages are independent even from each other, and the Salarvyani let them be.

The Shen are much more interested in political structures: they have their own governments in Shenyu, Mmatugual, and the little northern Shen states. They treat humans as foreigners who must go through considerable bureaucracy to achieve anything, and they are clever at trading and commerce. Their laws are so confusing to humans that even the Tsolyani legate in Ssorva has to ask for help in interpreting their edicts.

The inimicals (Ssu, Hluss, Hlutrgu, Shunned Ones, etc.) are treated as foes wherever they are found. Their special enclaves are theirs only because they fight ferociously to defend them, and their lands are not important enough for any of their neighbours to be willing to mount the sort of massive military force it would take to expunge them permanently from Tekumel. The Ssu, for one thing, dwell in undergorund cities where there are ancient tubeway car tunnels connecting these once-human sites to other places on Tekumel. Millennia ago the humans of Pechano and Salarvya managed to destroy the Ssu capital of Ssuganar, but the Ssu simply retreated grimly into their tunnels and nobody dared follow them. They are a very patient species."

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 15, 2016, 10:15:15 PM
Chirine,

I found this paragraph on the Blue Room as well.


'' I am dubious about fighting military campaigns on Tekumel with wargame rules. This is fine for isolated games or for "just suppose" games, but these cannot be taken as "authentic" Tekumel history without the likelihood of serious damage to Tekumel's "real" history. A gang of talented players can often beat a single, helpless referee (me -- the worst dice roller in the world!), and next thing you know the Mu'ugalavyani lose when they actually win, and the Tsolyani are sacking Ssa'atis! The players take a god-like "wargamers' viewpoint" of a battle, see everything, know everything, and cleverly use the rules to "play chess." I don't mind this, as long as it is not taken as "real Tekumelani history." I recall one wargame in which three very skilled gamers took a contingent of low-class Mu'ugalavyani troops and beat the kilts off the First Legion of Ever-Present Glory (me) by simply dancing all around and "playing rules" instead of simulating a real conflict. I think they lost 3 casualties, while I lost over 400 men! A wargamer (read: chess-player) I am admittedly not!''


I was wondering:

1.  what do you think of Phil's take on wargame rules and Tekumel.
2. if you knew anything about the battle Phil was describing.
3. was he in fact 'the  worst dice roller in the world?'' :)

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 15, 2016, 11:16:02 PM
I can answer a little bit.  First, wargamers always blame dice, but in the long run that's not true.

Second, I don't know what battle this was, but there were some tactics Phil just didn't know how to handle; cf. my use of a blitzkrieg attack at 3rd Mar.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 16, 2016, 06:32:52 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;913091
Chirine,

My game has been chugging along full speed, and I've decided to introduce some non-humans into mix. I went on  my favourite resource looking for some info on the Pe Choi and I found this great post from Phil. I figured I would share it here. Is there any more  that you can add to what the kindly professor has said?

On a macro level, no; this is a very accurate summary of the situation after the Livyani - Mu'uglavyani war. On a micro level, maybe, if you have more specific things in mind. I could do several thousand words on a macro level, none of which would be any better then what Phil said.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 16, 2016, 06:40:43 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;913102
Chirine,
I was wondering:

1.  what do you think of Phil's take on wargame rules and Tekumel.
2. if you knew anything about the battle Phil was describing.
3. was he in fact 'the  worst dice roller in the world?'' :)

Shemek

1. It's accurate. Phil didn't like trying to adapt historical rules to Tekumel; it never seemed to 'gel'. Which is why we wrote "Qadardlikoi"; he was an active participant in writing and play-testing the thing. It's what we used for all of our fights in his  campaign. His biggest issue were the rules lawyers from the Monday group and from the Little Tin; in fairness, WRG 6th was a rules lawyer's dream. He liked my rules so much that he insisted on their being copyrighted in my name, and even paid the $40 fee out of his own pocket. The Monday group didn't like it; 'too simple', they said, as the rules do not allow for clever rules lawyering and instead require tactics to win battles.

2. It was a 'one-off' played in the middle of 1975. Phil vs. what became the Monday group; not connected with the RPG campaign.

3. No. Far from it. He was a very good opponent, especially in any game that favored historical simulation over nit-picking rules.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 16, 2016, 06:42:19 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;913122
I can answer a little bit.  First, wargamers always blame dice, but in the long run that's not true.

Second, I don't know what battle this was, but there were some tactics Phil just didn't know how to handle; cf. my use of a blitzkrieg attack at 3rd Mar.

This was before your medal; they were trying out Gary Rudolph's WRG 6th modifications.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 16, 2016, 12:02:48 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;913184
This was before your medal; they were trying out Gary Rudolph's WRG 6th modifications.

Ah.

As far as the nitpicking, the other Phil Barker from England visited the Little Tin once, and then went to Winnipeg.  He said in Winnipeg "those chaps in Minneapolis would rather argue than play the game."

And yeah, Gary was a rules lawyer's rules lawyer.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 16, 2016, 07:11:06 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;913232
Ah.

As far as the nitpicking, the other Phil Barker from England visited the Little Tin once, and then went to Winnipeg.  He said in Winnipeg "those chaps in Minneapolis would rather argue than play the game."

And yeah, Gary was a rules lawyer's rules lawyer.

 What still strikes me, even after all these years, is that we didn't have this kind of rules-lawyering either at CSA meetings or on Thursday night - or in any of our games, come to think of it; while games at the Fifth Precinct or the Little Tin were always the scene of such.

Remember the night we tried to play his "Missum" out at Phil's? His combat resolution table had results out to two decimal places, so you had to keep track of percentages of a figure for casualties, and he had individual stats for the individual cohorts in a legion. You had to do twenty die rolls for your twenty cohorts to attack, and the other side had to make as many dies rolls to defend themselves. Net result was that we moved into combat on turn one, and then spent the next four hours watching the author of the game roll dice, punch numbers into a calculator, take notes, and mumble arcane incantations to himself. Eventually, Phil told me to put all the figures away and lock the place up as he was going upstairs to bed. Never played "Missum" out at Phil's again. Ever.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 16, 2016, 11:23:17 PM
Geez, I'd forgotten about that.

More than ever I appreciate Gary Gygax's maxim that "First and foremost, it is a GAME."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on August 17, 2016, 10:35:25 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;912676
Going to be a very busy weekend; mounted infantry and light cavalry vs. player-characters this afternoon, and ships of the line tomorrow.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;912733
Just now back in - 1145 local time - from a wonderful day. The short form is that I won, they won, and nobody got hurt; they did learn many, many valuable lessons about how to think tactically, how to manages large groups of PCs and NPCs, and - most importantly - to ask the vital question of "what do those people over there have in mind?"

I had a really wonderful time; I did a lot of teaching, both about mounted tactics - putting out vedettes, and protecting your baggage; think Arsuf, here - and telling stories about how we gamed all those years ago at Coffmann as learning aids for the players. What I loved to see the most was the looks of comprehension on people's faces as they were able to apply the lessons I was teaching them to their situation - these are very quick, very clever, and very smart people, and I think they did a wonderful job of dealing with the threat I was posing them.

A number of very valuable lessons were learned, and they got an insight into how we managed to survive the best that Phil (and Dave, and Gary) could throw at us. It was, in short, as good a game session as the one we had at Gary Con, last year... :)
Glad to hear the weekend was fun for you, Uncle! Here, it is all about swords, history, glory, learning and getting enough sleep.  
I'm just glad I skipped the stomach bug some people got, or it would have been a bit too much like your campaigns, but in real life.
Hope your lessonsshall be put to good use soon!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;912736
Damn straight.  The really powerful ones are almost undistinguishable from living humans except for their dryness and grey skin tone, and the bastards keep the skills they had in life.

Try fighting somebody who's had 300 years to practice Arruche.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;912775
Exactly. This is why I have always played the "greater" undead as super tough PC's, and why my players tend to give such creatures a very, very wide berth. 300 years of Arruche is bad enough, but what about 300 years of spell casting experience and research?

Shemek
OK, how do you beat someone who has had 300 years of practice?
Beating the 300 years sorcerer should be easy. The law of averagesbeing the way it is, in 300 years he's bound to botch a ritual and be destroyed!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 17, 2016, 12:17:45 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;913435
OK, how do you beat someone who has had 300 years of practice?
The way you should try to defeat anybody else, really. Preparation, surprise, overwhelming force locally applied, and never giving the sucker an even break.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on August 17, 2016, 02:31:46 PM
Quote from: Bren;913452
The way you should try to defeat anybody else, really. Preparation, surprise, overwhelming force locally applied, and never giving the sucker an even break.
Other than that;).

Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 17, 2016, 07:18:00 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;913435
Glad

1. OK, how do you beat someone who has had 300 years of practice?
2. Beating the 300 years sorcerer should be easy. The law of averagesbeing the way it is, in 300 years he's bound to botch a ritual and be destroyed!


1. Very deliberately and methodically, preferably with a mace, but barring that a hefty club should do the trick.
2. You hope!:p

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on August 18, 2016, 03:04:55 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;913562
1. Very deliberately and methodically, preferably with a mace, but barring that a hefty club should do the trick.
2. You hope!:p

Shemek.

1. That works.
2. No, I count on statistics! It's not just hoping if you can attach a more-than-two-syllables word to it!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 18, 2016, 06:38:42 AM
I hope so, too. The biggest lesson they learned was to ask the question "What do these people want?"

I sat there at the table for some three hours, watching some half-dozen players trying to organize some forty-five PCs and NPCs into some semblance of a marching order. The discussion was intelligent and very good, and was kinda going in circles, and I finally simply asked the GM is I could act as the party's tactical advisor. One player, who was convinced that I was out to kill hem all, asked why I would give them my best advice, and I made the point about being intellectually honest in games - what they were talking about was something that their PCs would know, so I would be happy to simply stipulate it as a given.

What was mesmerizing them was that that about a third of their force was injured or wounded, and effectively non-combatants. They also had two people mounted on oxen, which caused me to simply stare in astonishment; oxen are both slow and hard to care for, and they should have had a barbeque. So anyway, I set them up with a van (lights), a center for a reserve (heavies and mediums), the main body of 'baggage' and then two flanking rear guards (lights) to cover the baggage. All very simple cavalry tactics when moving in a steppe, like we were; it's open and flat, so I did what several historical commanders actually did. All through this, as it was getting to be dawn local time, my lights continued to make a lot of noise and demonstrations off at the edge of their vision. I'd already pre-set my battle plan, so all the GM had to do was set the thing in motion - I would be functioning as a dice tower, more then anything else.

My giving them my best advice seemed to precipitate a discussion about negotiation; the biggest issue seemed to be that the players assumed that all my bandits were out to do was kill them off - which, you'll remember, was what they did to my people. After some time spent by my continually suggesting (with the GM's permission, of course) that they needed to think outside the box, they finally sent out a messenger to talk to us. I was delighted - after we came to a nicely profitable agreement for me and the lads, I let them go on their way...

And then pointed out that what I was doing was what Sir John Hawkwood and his White Company, or any body of Cossacks, or what Saladin would have done - avoided a pitched battle with a heavier force, which would have gotten a lot of my people killed and wounded, and thus been very counter-productive and unprofitable for the workings of the firm. Don Corleone made did exactly what I had told them I would do, and made them a very attractive offer that was in both of our best interests. I got to make all sorts of historical references, and pointed them in the direction of all the on-line reprints of all of the manuals that I had read over the years - a Victorian cavalry officer would have instantly recognized what I was doing, and so would have Richard I (the Arsuf reference).

"Duffer's Drift" was invoked, too.

Did I win? I thought so; none of my people got hurt, they all got some nice money, and the day went well for our little business enterprise. It was wonderfully fun, I thought.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 18, 2016, 06:58:30 AM
History?
You mean long time ago? like Last Year?
:p
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 18, 2016, 10:05:15 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;913635
*snip*

What was mesmerizing them was that that about a third of their force was injured or wounded, and effectively non-combatants. They also had two people mounted on oxen, which caused me to simply stare in astonishment; oxen are both slow and hard to care for, and they should have had a barbeque. So anyway, I set them up with a van (lights), a center for a reserve (heavies and mediums), the main body of 'baggage' and then two flanking rear guards (lights) to cover the baggage. All very simple cavalry tactics when moving in a steppe, like we were; it's open and flat, so I did what several historical commanders actually did. All through this, as it was getting to be dawn local time, my lights continued to make a lot of noise and demonstrations off at the edge of their vision. I'd already pre-set my battle plan, so all the GM had to do was set the thing in motion - I would be functioning as a dice tower, more then anything else.

My giving them my best advice seemed to precipitate a discussion about negotiation; the biggest issue seemed to be that the players assumed that all my bandits were out to do was kill them off - which, you'll remember, was what they did to my people. After some time spent by my continually suggesting (with the GM's permission, of course) that they needed to think outside the box, they finally sent out a messenger to talk to us. I was delighted - after we came to a nicely profitable agreement for me and the lads, I let them go on their way...

-a Victorian cavalry officer would have instantly recognized what I was doing, and so would have Richard I (the Arsuf reference).

*snip* .


Sounds like you had a glorious weekend. What I find truly amazing, even though I really shouldn't by now, is the fact that basic cavalry, or infantry, tactics are looked upon as some type of voodoo magic by so many people involved in RPG's. It's funny when you apply real world methodology to "make-believe" and what do you know it actually works!

This has become a challenge in my game of late. I don't know what's happened but my players have been making real bone headed decisions based on assumptions and little or no analysis what so ever. I think I need to mix up the group and have some newbies augment the grognards.

As would an armoured officer.;)


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 18, 2016, 11:54:16 AM
The problem is that the non-wargamers learned their "tactics" from D&D 3rd edition, which copies heavily from online games, most especially "World of Warcraft."  To them, "tactics" means "I run up to the enemy and then at the proper moment use my Ultimate Testicle Crush maneuver."

Honestly, such things as "Open order against an area weapon and close order against melee" is exotic and esoteric for these people.  This is reinforced by a game system where you are fighting "one tough enemy" rather than organized forces.

There is one very experienced wargamer in that group, but he's not a strong personality and is reluctant to simply give orders.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 18, 2016, 11:55:47 AM
Also, the "the bandits are out to kill us" is a mindset common among non-wargamers, especially those who play a lot of computer games; in the vast majority of computer games the AI is designed so that any opponent IS simply trying to kill you.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 18, 2016, 12:33:43 PM
The Osprey rack is close by the rpg stuff in my local store...not that I've learned anything from them. I love the pretty pictures...!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 18, 2016, 01:31:26 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;913664
The problem is that the non-wargamers learned their "tactics" from D&D 3rd edition, which copies heavily from online games, most especially "World of Warcraft."  To them, "tactics" means "I run up to the enemy and then at the proper moment use my Ultimate Testicle Crush maneuver."

Honestly, such things as "Open order against an area weapon and close order against melee" is exotic and esoteric for these people.  This is reinforced by a game system where you are fighting "one tough enemy" rather than organized forces.

There is one very experienced wargamer in that group, but he's not a strong personality and is reluctant to simply give orders.


"Ultimate Testicle Crush Manuever" :D :D:D. I think, as usual Glorious General, you've gotten to the meat of the problem. Many, (perhaps most?) gamers of a certain vintage either cut their teeth on wargaming or played wargames at one point. Within my immediate circle not only did we play D&D, but BTech, ASL, and almost every other wargame that Avalon Hill and GDW made. This gave us alternatives that could be employed when playing whatever the game was. We were brutal, often replaying or refighting a particular part of a battle multiple times if we wanted to employ a different strategy or test a different hypothesis.
This is why I get frustrated with the "veterans" in my gaming group. They should know better, but have fallen into the habit of thinking that because I've done something a certain way in the past I will continue to do so in the future. The only thing that they should take as a given is: if they encounter Ssu they will be attacked.


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on August 18, 2016, 05:16:41 PM
Congratulations, Uncle! You did the best that could be expected.
Did you offer them to pay blood money and then go on a quest?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;913664
The problem is that the non-wargamers learned their "tactics" from D&D 3rd edition, which copies heavily from online games, most especially "World of Warcraft."  To them, "tactics" means "I run up to the enemy and then at the proper moment use my Ultimate Testicle Crush maneuver."

Word.
Though some old schoolers are as bad or worse. I think I did tell in thisthread about the player in an old school game who told me that there's no tactics in D&D, because everyone is rushing the enemy?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Harlock on August 18, 2016, 07:26:04 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;913666
Also, the "the bandits are out to kill us" is a mindset common among non-wargamers, especially those who play a lot of computer games; in the vast majority of computer games the AI is designed so that any opponent IS simply trying to kill you.

I find this so common among newer gamers now as to think of it as the default. When I had some younger gamers interested in my game, I made sure they understood that: there's no threat meter; there's no color code that let's you know that an enemy is too strong for you; there will be times when you are faced with an enemy you are not supposed to attack, much less insult; that problem-solving, negotiation, bribery, hiring help, and running are often valid responses to an encounter. Also, there's no three lives or respawn point. And sometimes I have to remind veteran players as well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 19, 2016, 06:51:48 AM
For any interested, there is a more "modern" take on Tekumel PbP gaming here:
Emerald Sphere of Sighs (http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=8573&date=1467336885).

I assume a more "modern" take as the person running it said:
[OCC: I used Tsolyani here even though Engsvanyali would be more appropriate--later posts will include some Engsvanyali elements as I become proficient in its formulations]

While I could be wrong, I don't remember back when it was "new" any concern with using the correct "in character" language while playing.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 19, 2016, 10:37:55 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;913965
For any interested, there is a more "modern" take on Tekumel PbP gaming here:
Emerald Sphere of Sighs (http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=8573&date=1467336885).

I assume a more "modern" take as the person running it said:
[OCC: I used Tsolyani here even though Engsvanyali would be more appropriate--later posts will include some Engsvanyali elements as I become proficient in its formulations]

While I could be wrong, I don't remember back when it was "new" any concern with using the correct "in character" language while playing.
=


I think this attitude is what Chirine refers to as the "Tekumel is art" mind set. Looks like it was an interesting campaign.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 19, 2016, 01:06:55 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;914011
I think this attitude is what Chirine refers to as the "Tekumel is art" mind set. Looks like it was an interesting campaign.

Shemek.

Yes, I thought that having an "Actual Play" would be handy to refer to when trying to explain that.

Certainly a valid style and an interesting read.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on August 19, 2016, 06:03:48 PM
Yeah there's Middle Earth fanatics who absolutely lose their shit if the ancient Dwarven inscription is using the variation of Cirth runes known as Angerthas Daeron instead of Angerthas Moria.  God forbid you use Certhas Daeron, that's a flipped table at least.  Decide to say "Fuck it" and go with Futhark, they'll mark you an enemy for life.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 19, 2016, 06:35:23 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;913638
History?
You mean long time ago? like Last Year?
:p
=


Yep. And it's even on the Internet, too... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 19, 2016, 06:47:54 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;913664

There is one very experienced wargamer in that group, but he's not a strong personality and is reluctant to simply give orders.


Yeah, I watched him out of the corner of my eye the whole time, and his smile just kept getting bigger and broader throughout. After I delivered my homily on the gospel of "Keeping Track Of And Managing Your Party Resources", he divulged the information that his PC is a "battle mage" - TFT's version of Yours Truly - and the other players had just plumb forgotten that.

He and the GM laughed for quite a while, over that one... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 19, 2016, 06:50:35 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;914011
I think this attitude is what Chirine refers to as the "Tekumel is art" mind set. Looks like it was an interesting campaign.

Gronan, actually. I don't mind it as a play style, but when it turns into 'you must use conlangs' as a marketing ploy it's usually not very successful.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 19, 2016, 09:00:43 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;914155
Gronan, actually. I don't mind it as a play style, but when it turns into 'you must use conlangs' as a marketing ploy it's usually not very successful.


Oops, my mistake. Sorry about that Glorious General.;)

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 20, 2016, 10:17:47 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;914132
Yeah there's Middle Earth fanatics who absolutely lose their shit if the ancient Dwarven inscription is using the variation of Cirth runes known as Angerthas Daeron instead of Angerthas Moria.  God forbid you use Certhas Daeron, that's a flipped table at least.  Decide to say "Fuck it" and go with Futhark, they'll mark you an enemy for life.

Yep; there's a fan group like this here in the Twin Cities. And a wide variety of groups like them, all from different genres.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 20, 2016, 10:24:22 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;914184
Oops, my mistake. Sorry about that Glorious General.;)

Shemek.

No problem, at least not for me.

I've been following this campaign for quite some time, and I like what I'm seeing. Good solid gaming, lots of 'local color', and the kind of detailing that works very well for this medium - PbP is particularly suited for having written text for detailing, as it's probably a little difficult to use the visual aids that I like to use. And it's not obtrusive, either; from what I can tell, play flow keeps moving right along.

What I find annoying is when a pedant jumps down the throat of a new player or GM, correcting their grammar. Seen it a lot, from some of the 'mainstream' Tekumel fans, and it's one of the reasons why Tekumel enjoys the reputation that is has these days. As I've mentioned in this and other places, as a marketing ploy it has been rather unsuccessful.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 20, 2016, 03:23:46 PM
But as a ploy for maintaining "Ethnic Purity," it works a treat.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 20, 2016, 04:27:36 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;914316
But as a ploy for maintaining "Ethnic Purity," it works a treat.


True, true; it does keep the riff-raff and the hoi polloi (like us) out of what really should be something that only the truly enlightened and properly indoctrinated can fully comprehend - the status and prestige, as one of the elite of 'Barker's Own', must be maintained. My favorite Official Facebook announcement was of the wine and cheese tasting party.

Ah. me. I wish I knew something about The One True Tekumel; all I had to go by was what that Barker fellow had to say...

(Heavy-handed satire, no extra charge. Drum roll, please!)

(Borscht Belt, here we come!!!)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 20, 2016, 09:41:07 PM
Try the roast Hmelu, folks, it was great Tuesday.  Tip your servers, those kids work hard.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 21, 2016, 12:11:31 PM
Chirine,

Just wondering, did Phil ever draw a map of the Northern Continent as it looked during pre-cataclysmic (ie Engsvanyali) times? If so do you have a copy that would be able to post without stepping on toes or getting certain people worked up?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 21, 2016, 01:01:50 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;914475
Chirine,

Just wondering, did Phil ever draw a map of the Northern Continent as it looked during pre-cataclysmic (ie Engsvanyali) times? If so do you have a copy that would be able to post without stepping on toes or getting certain people worked up?

Shemek.

No, he did not, but a fan did one a couple of years back - I have a copy in my files, thanks to The Missus' regular web searches, and I think it's pretty nice. I will look it up, and see if I can't direct you to the website where it's posted. 'Not Official', of course, but very much in line with Phil's descriptions.

Best way to look at this is with a copy of Craig Smith's NW Frontier maps; any depressions or the desert would be water - a shallow ocean, according to Phil - and any elevations or heights would have been islands. We're not talking very deep water, here, maybe twenty-five to thirty feet; the real depths would start off of what's the modern coastline.

EDIT: Here's the wonderful blog where the map should be found:

http://dualdais.blogspot.com/ (http://dualdais.blogspot.com/)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 21, 2016, 01:28:54 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;914480
No, he did not, but a fan did one a couple of years back - I have a copy in my files, thanks to The Missus' regular web searches, and I think it's pretty nice. I will look it up, and see if I can't direct you to the website where it's posted. 'Not Official', of course, but very much in line with Phil's descriptions.

Best way to look at this is with a copy of Craig Smith's NW Frontier maps; any depressions or the desert would be water - a shallow ocean, according to Phil - and any elevations or heights would have been islands. We're not talking very deep water, here, maybe twenty-five to thirty feet; the real depths would start off of what's the modern coastline.

EDIT: Here's the wonderful blog where the map should be found:

http://dualdais.blogspot.com/ (http://dualdais.blogspot.com/)


Thank you Chirine. You're a true gentleman and a scholar. I've been reading the game notes from the link that Greentongue posted and wanted something to follow along with, and get my bearings.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 21, 2016, 01:42:59 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;914491
Thank you Chirine. You're a true gentleman and a scholar. I've been reading the game notes from the link that Greentongue posted and wanted something to follow along with, and get my bearings.

Shemek.

You're welcome!

There is a lot of 'unofficial' stuff out there on the web being done by people who used to talk regularly with Phil in the 1980s and 1990s, and they have been very good about taking the notes from those conversations and letters and developing what Phil talked about into useful materials for games. I routinely add this kind of thing to my archives, so that I have it on file for my use in my model-building, games, and writing. This kind of 'cooperative world-building' was always Tekumel's great strength, back in the day, as it included so many fans in the creative process; Phil loved to talk about his world, and enjoyed seeing what people could do with it. He was actually pretty liberal about what constituted 'staying inside the lines' of 'his' Tekumel, and as part of my archival researches I can trace the influence of quite a few fans on what happened in his campaigns.

This is what one of the big strengths of Tekumel fandom, and what kept the thing slive and breathing for so many years. Back about five years ago, I was asked by the Tekumel Foundation for advice on how to involve the existing fan base, and I suggested the concept of a 'College of Cardinals', made up of Tekumel fans who would get together and see what could be added to the body of work that existed for Tekumel - it went hand in hand with the idea of an annual Tekumel convention here in the Twin Cities, where people could see all of the artifacts and materials what we'd accumulated in Phil's campaigns over the years. The Foundation chose a different path, a very exclusionary and elitist one of very rigid and authoritarian control of the IP; this is my basic difference from them - I believe Tekumel, as practiced by it's creator, is a pretty big tent that can include a lot of people.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 21, 2016, 05:37:59 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;914497
The Foundation chose a different path, a very exclusionary and elitist one of very rigid and authoritarian control of the IP; this is my basic difference from them - I believe Tekumel, as practiced by it's creator, is a pretty big tent that can include a lot of people.

That, and you realize that the Tekumel IP has an acutal market value that is very, very tiny; a few tens of thousands of dollars at the very most.  Middle Earth or Star Wars it ain't.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 21, 2016, 06:02:57 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;914497
You're welcome!

1. There is a lot of 'unofficial' stuff out there on the web being done by people who used to talk regularly with Phil in the 1980s and 1990s, and they have been very good about taking the notes from those conversations and letters and developing what Phil talked about into useful materials for games. I routinely add this kind of thing to my archives, so that I have it on file for my use in my model-building, games, and writing. This kind of 'cooperative world-building' was always Tekumel's great strength, back in the day, as it included so many fans in the creative process; Phil loved to talk about his world, and enjoyed seeing what people could do with it. He was actually pretty liberal about what constituted 'staying inside the lines' of 'his' Tekumel, and as part of my archival researches I can trace the influence of quite a few fans on what happened in his campaigns.

2.This is what one of the big strengths of Tekumel fandom, and what kept the thing slive and breathing for so many years. Back about five years ago, I was asked by the Tekumel Foundation for advice on how to involve the existing fan base, and I suggested the concept of a 'College of Cardinals', made up of Tekumel fans who would get together and see what could be added to the body of work that existed for Tekumel - it went hand in hand with the idea of an annual Tekumel convention here in the Twin Cities, where people could see all of the artifacts and materials what we'd accumulated in Phil's campaigns over the years. The Foundation chose a different path, a very exclusionary and elitist one of very rigid and authoritarian control of the IP; this is my basic difference from them - I believe Tekumel, as practiced by it's creator, is a pretty big tent that can include a lot of people.


1.This is exactly what I did with Pechano. I gleaned everything that I could from the Rulebooks, Sourcebooks, Armies of Tekumel, The Blue Room, and e-mails with Phil, cobbled them all together and filled in the blanks with my own stuff. My creation may not be genuine-guaranteed-certified Tekumel, but it's good enough for me, and pretty damn close to the "real thing". As Phil said to me once: "Enjoy Pechano, I don't really get out there very much", so I did and I still am all these years later.

2. This would be the ideal way to go, and I know it would ensure Tekumel's long term viability. As you know better than most, certain egos will simply not allow this to happen for, IMO, purely selfish reasons. To them being the Keepers of the Keys is more important than accessibility or greater exposure.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 21, 2016, 06:05:30 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;914529
That, and you realize that the Tekumel IP has an acutal market value that is very, very tiny; a few tens of thousands of dollars at the very most.  Middle Earth or Star Wars it ain't.

I don't even think that it's really, primarily about the money, but mostly a control thing. "My way, or the high way" so to speak.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 21, 2016, 06:23:23 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;914529
That, and you realize that the Tekumel IP has an acutal market value that is very, very tiny; a few tens of thousands of dollars at the very most.  Middle Earth or Star Wars it ain't.

I don't think it has even that much value, at this point. The last two publishers who were trying to negotiate for the use of the IP were each offering less then $5,000 for all the rights, and that was some years ago. The very last offer that I saw on paper was for $2,000 for all rights, for a term of something like five years. Getting the rights to publish would be the cheap part; the major expense would be trying to take the mass of materials that Phil created and reconfiguring it into products that would actually sell to the game hobby as it exists today. Let's face it - most of what was published was intended for support of obsolete sets of rules, and while there's a few of the old products that could be salvaged for reprinting most of the old publications need to be disassembled and rebuilt. There are also some unpublished 'crown jewels' that could be done up as products, but the bottom line is that, aside from his novels and 'Ebon Bindings', none of the old publications meet the demands for production quality that is a basic level today. All of the stuff we did was top of the line back in 1982, but not in 2016.

I have been asked how much of an investment it would take to get Tekumel going again, and my best estimate is around $100,000 to $250,000 at today's prices to go through and bring up just the existing texts to current standards for mass-market publishing. Which may be why the Foundation has been right up front about the OSR being their target demographic / market; I was told that the some 1,000 people that they believe are the OSR would accept any Tekumel products, at the same production level as we did back in the 1980s, because of the 'retro' appeal of all the old publications. I don't know if that's a realistic estimate; I never saw any market research to back that assumption up.

As you've said both here and elsewhere, Tekumel is a niche product in a niche market. It's strength is in it's fans, not in it's commercial sales.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 21, 2016, 07:03:50 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;914537
1.This is exactly what I did with Pechano. I gleaned everything that I could from the Rulebooks, Sourcebooks, Armies of Tekumel, The Blue Room, and e-mails with Phil, cobbled them all together and filled in the blanks with my own stuff. My creation may not be genuine-guaranteed-certified Tekumel, but it's good enough for me, and pretty damn close to the "real thing". As Phil said to me once: "Enjoy Pechano, I don't really get out there very much", so I did and I still am all these years later.

2. This would be the ideal way to go, and I know it would ensure Tekumel's long term viability. As you know better than most, certain egos will simply not allow this to happen for, IMO, purely selfish reasons. To them being the Keepers of the Keys is more important than accessibility or greater exposure.

Shemek

1. Exactly. You are an example of what is possible - if Phil had had access to your notes, he would have used them in his campaign.

2. Agreed. One of the reasons why my idea foundered was that while the rest of the Foundation's Board was fine with a simple table and chairs up at the  front of the meeting room, one of the Board (you can guess who) insisted that he have a more impressive chair then anyone else, to demonstrate that his personal prestige and status was higher then anyone else - including Mrs. Barker, one of the other directors.

At which point, after he delivered this statement, the Imp of the Perverse entered into me as it often does on occasions like this, and I suggested that we should have a special 'Chairman-President's Fanfare' to play as he entered the room and assumed his seat of honor. He thought I was being serious, and told me to come up with one ASAP. The rest of the Board took all of this badly, and the concept was dropped.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 21, 2016, 07:05:32 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;914538
I don't even think that it's really, primarily about the money, but mostly a control thing. "My way, or the high way" so to speak.

Shemek

Oh, very much so, as he has pointed out many times to people. "Alice in Wonderland" meets North Korea by way of "Dilbert".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 21, 2016, 07:15:22 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;914550
I suggested that we should have a special 'Chairman-President's Fanfare' to play as he entered the room and assumed his seat of honor. He thought I was being serious, and told me to come up with one ASAP. The rest of the Board took all of this badly, and the concept was dropped.
I think this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LukyMYp2noo) would have worked.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 21, 2016, 07:21:44 PM
Quote from: Bren;914555
I think this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LukyMYp2noo) would have worked.

Very, very funny! :)

He had something more like this in mind...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p1BedwyFKY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p1BedwyFKY)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 21, 2016, 07:39:12 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;914550
1. Exactly. You are an example of what is possible - if Phil had had access to your notes, he would have used them in his campaign.

2. Agreed. One of the reasons why my idea foundered was that while the rest of the Foundation's Board was fine with a simple table and chairs up at the  front of the meeting room, one of the Board (you can guess who) insisted that he have a more impressive chair then anyone else, to demonstrate that his personal prestige and status was higher then anyone else - including Mrs. Barker, one of the other directors.

At which point, after he delivered this statement, the Imp of the Perverse entered into me as it often does on occasions like this, and I suggested that we should have a special 'Chairman-President's Fanfare' to play as he entered the room and assumed his seat of honor. He thought I was being serious, and told me to come up with one ASAP. The rest of the Board took all of this badly, and the concept was dropped.


:rolleyes:Why am I not surprised, even when you tell me about the most absurd things that this guy does? That Imp you speak of has gotten me into more trouble over the years than I care to think of. Unfortunately I have, what my father used to call, "a big mouth." This characteristic coupled with "the Imp of the Perverse" can be a dangerous combination...:p Someday I'll have to tell you (off line) about some of my more memorable Waterloos. Like the time my former boss asked me what I thought of the Honda Element (1. Open Mouth --> 2. Insert Foot --> 3. Insert Other Foot --> 4. Remove Feet --> 5. Perform Procedure Again).


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 21, 2016, 07:46:34 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;914572
:rolleyes:Why am I not surprised, even when you tell me about the most absurd things that this guy does? That Imp you speak of has gotten me into more trouble over the years than I care to think of. Unfortunately I have, what my father used to call, "a big mouth." This characteristic coupled with "the Imp of the Perverse" can be a dangerous combination...:p Someday I'll have to tell you (off line) about some of my more memorable Waterloos. Like the time my former boss asked me what I thought of the Honda Element (1. Open Mouth --> 2. Insert Foot --> 3. Insert Other Foot --> 4. Remove Feet --> 5. Perform Procedure Again).


Shemek

Oh, I hear you! It used to be that my snarky comments were the only way I could keep my blood pressure down to a reasonable level, but that finally failed. So it goes... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 21, 2016, 07:46:58 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;914561
Very, very funny! :)

He had something more like this in mind...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p1BedwyFKY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p1BedwyFKY)
No. No. No. Even I know that sounds nothing at all like Tekumel. Way too Western tonal and Christian among other things. :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 21, 2016, 07:47:24 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;914561
Very, very funny! :)

He had something more like this in mind...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p1BedwyFKY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p1BedwyFKY)


I was thinking more of this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8IkbCeZ9to (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8IkbCeZ9to)


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 21, 2016, 07:49:59 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;914579
I was thinking more of this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8IkbCeZ9to (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8IkbCeZ9to)


Shemek
I think the mode of mockery would have worked. There must be a Greek or Latin word for that sort of mockery where you use unflattering words delivered in the standard flattering style of song, poem, or ode.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 21, 2016, 09:19:54 PM
Quote from: Bren;914578
No. No. No. Even I know that sounds nothing at all like Tekumel. Way too Western tonal and Christian among other things. :D


I stand corrected. Maybe this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSqHfAoE6q0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSqHfAoE6q0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 21, 2016, 09:21:39 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;914579
I was thinking more of this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8IkbCeZ9to (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8IkbCeZ9to)


Shemek

:)

I had a 3LT who used "Run Away!" as a command to the troops... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 21, 2016, 09:55:34 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;914611
I stand corrected. Maybe this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSqHfAoE6q0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSqHfAoE6q0)
Still a western scale, but not at all Christian in sound and "Gracchus, something more cheerful!" at the start is perfect for the sort of antics you and Gronan describe. I would think that Phil would have enjoyed that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 21, 2016, 10:36:16 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;914612:D
:)

I had a 3LT who used "Run Away!" as a command to the troops... :)


:D:D:D
I used to have an SSM that would shout at the top of his voice "what the fuck are you doing you horrible little man!", and threaten to "fornicate with your skull" whenever you messed up.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 21, 2016, 10:45:05 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;914611
I stand corrected. Maybe this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSqHfAoE6q0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSqHfAoE6q0)



How about this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdXQJS3Yv0Y
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 21, 2016, 10:59:46 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;914629
How about this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdXQJS3Yv0Y


Excellent!!! The Lord of the Lash has made Tekumel even more inaccessible todayyy...!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: nDervish on August 22, 2016, 05:56:17 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;914629
How about this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdXQJS3Yv0Y

Wonderful!  Yet another dim childhood memory moves from "was that real or did I just imagine it?" to "nope, I'm not the only one who remembers it".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron Opal on August 22, 2016, 06:35:01 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;914543
I don't think it has even that much value, at this point. The last two publishers who were trying to negotiate for the use of the IP were each offering less then $5,000 for all the rights, and that was some years ago. The very last offer that I saw on paper was for $2,000 for all rights, for a term of something like five years.


The more I read about this, the more my inner Loki is roused.

If I ever had more money than I knew what to do with, I would scan all of the professor's documents and then release them into the wild. Mrs. Barker would find a small box in her mailbox with $10k in cash and a note saying something like "Honorarium for the Honored Explorer".

(Of course, only with your kind blessing, Chirine.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 23, 2016, 01:08:48 AM
Uncle,

Any Kuni-Birds that you know of on Tekumel that are similar to the Myna bird?

Thanks,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 23, 2016, 06:40:58 AM
Quote from: Baron Opal;914788
The more I read about this, the more my inner Loki is roused.

If I ever had more money than I knew what to do with, I would scan all of the professor's documents and then release them into the wild. Mrs. Barker would find a small box in her mailbox with $10k in cash and a note saying something like "Honorarium for the Honored Explorer".

(Of course, only with your kind blessing, Chirine.)


The scanning part is already done; everything that Phil ever did for Tekumel exists in digital format, courtesy of my Missus who did all the work in the summer of 2011 and 2012. We have everything from the marginal doodles in Phil's college notebooks to the unfinished seventh novel, with everything in between. We did this as part of my work as archivist, due to the mold and mildew problem present in a lot of the documents. There's over 75 gigabytes of data, at the moment; we have six copies of the data, in various locations, for redundancy.

What is done with the archive is not my issue; I am an archivist, nothing more or less, which is what I set out to do in the summer of 1976 when I first started working for Phil as an unpaid 'private secretary'. Sure, I'd like to see it available for people to use; Phil was always ready to talk to people about his creation.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 23, 2016, 06:45:58 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;914839
Uncle,

Any Kuni-Birds that you know of on Tekumel that are similar to the Myna bird?

Thanks,

H:0)

Yes; the Kuni are hawk-like predators, and there are the equivalent of Myna birds - as well as all sorts of exotic avians - that are kept as pets. There's a lot of flora and fauna that exist like this, but never got mentioned in the rules as they are simply 'the background' and don't usually interact with PCs in the usual course of games.

We found out about them after we stopped doing 'dungeon crawls', which were a major feature of the early years in Phil's campaign. Once we got out out of the 'murderhobo' mindset and into the cultures, a lot of stuff like this started to emerge. We still 'adventured', of course, but they were a different kind of adventure.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 23, 2016, 10:43:14 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;914888
Yes; the Kuni are hawk-like predators, and there are the equivalent of Myna birds - as well as all sorts of exotic avians - that are kept as pets. There's a lot of flora and fauna that exist like this, but never got mentioned in the rules as they are simply 'the background' and don't usually interact with PCs in the usual course of games.

We found out about them after we stopped doing 'dungeon crawls', which were a major feature of the early years in Phil's campaign. Once we got out out of the 'murderhobo' mindset and into the cultures, a lot of stuff like this started to emerge. We still 'adventured', of course, but they were a different kind of adventure.


Thank you Uncle. Any idea what a myna type bird would be called?

Thanks,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 23, 2016, 01:01:38 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;914926
Any idea what a myna type bird would be called?

Whatever you want. It's your world version.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 23, 2016, 01:33:19 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;914951
Whatever you want. It's your world version.
=


I figured that. I was thinking simply a speaking Kereshal-bird...but, I wanted a hint to add some flavor!!!!

Thanks,

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 23, 2016, 04:52:28 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;914954
I figured that. I was thinking simply a speaking Kereshal-bird...but, I wanted a hint to add some flavor!!!!

Thanks,

H;0)


:p

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 24, 2016, 06:42:04 AM
I went through the files; I don't find a specific noun for this bird. My suggestion would be to use the Tsolyani for 'talking bird', which is the way Phil usually did things. If you like, I'll go back and get that compound word for you, if you like.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 24, 2016, 10:40:37 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;915097
I went through the files; I don't find a specific noun for this bird. My suggestion would be to use the Tsolyani for 'talking bird', which is the way Phil usually did things. If you like, I'll go back and get that compound word for you, if you like.


Uncle thank you. I will look into my library and see what I come up with. It may take a bit. I am not at all like Harsan...I will check with you when I come up with something.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on August 24, 2016, 11:23:05 AM
Just stumbled across this https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1536984495/egyptian-dungeon-game-tiles?ref=recs (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1536984495/egyptian-dungeon-game-tiles?ref=recs) and thought it might be of interest, especially to those not entirely theater of the mind folks.
Reminds me, when did the Good Professor stop wargaming? I mean he kept trying to pop out rpg rules every so often but wargaming just sort of disappears off the radar of production. I wonder what would have happened had that been the avenue he, and Tekumel, had pursued more strongly, given that Games Workshop blew up because they were the only game in town and Tekumel had a relationship with Ral Partha, who belatedly tried to hop into wargaming later. And so many people involved were wargamers, not to mention how many characters in game were military folks. GW peddled science fantasy with strange races magic, and tech wargaming which was obviously in Tekumel's wheelhouse. I can envision even Tekumel even walking a similar path, creating an out and out sci fi game like 40k ala Humanspace Empires separate from the "fantasy" Tekumel line. I know everyone still thought there was gold in them thar rpgs and no one could envision making wargames and minis being a path to success (other than GW), but it does make me wonder.

Another question, given that it seems like a lot of the Rules Are Off in the Underworld and What Happens in the Underworld Stays in the Underworld, if you robbed/looted some Underworld location and the owners found out, would they come after you in the world above? I mean, if you guys raided the Shrine/Temple of Sarku/Ksarul/Whomever in the Underworld and they found out it was Chirine and Co that did it, would they try and burgle/mug you above ground to get their stuff back? Would they confront you at your house or wherever? Could they go through the courts? Or would they just try and jump you the next time you went below ground?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 24, 2016, 01:31:08 PM
As for the "wargaming" point, remember Phil lost interest in commercially pushing Tekumel long before Warhamburger exploded.  We tried it, but at the time there just wasn't much interest.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on August 24, 2016, 02:54:39 PM
I know the timing for you guys was off but, man, it might have been a good fit. Except we would now be complaining about all the 13 year olds driving us crazy with their $400 boxed Pe Choi army for Humanspace Empires 8th edition instead of their $400 Space Elf on jet bike army for 40k.

Would you guys have been able to stomach making a rule set as, what is the proper term -non-complicated? beer and pretzel-ish? dumbed down?, as Warhammer? Even the early versions were far less complicated/realistic/whatever than most other games on the market at the time.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 24, 2016, 06:38:50 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;915128
Just stumbled across this https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1536984495/egyptian-dungeon-game-tiles?ref=recs (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1536984495/egyptian-dungeon-game-tiles?ref=recs) and thought it might be of interest, especially to those not entirely theater of the mind folks.

Reminds me, when did the Good Professor stop wargaming? I mean he kept trying to pop out rpg rules every so often but wargaming just sort of disappears off the radar of production. I wonder what would have happened had that been the avenue he, and Tekumel, had pursued more strongly, given that Games Workshop blew up because they were the only game in town and Tekumel had a relationship with Ral Partha, who belatedly tried to hop into wargaming later. And so many people involved were wargamers, not to mention how many characters in game were military folks. GW peddled science fantasy with strange races magic, and tech wargaming which was obviously in Tekumel's wheelhouse. I can envision even Tekumel even walking a similar path, creating an out and out sci fi game like 40k ala Humanspace Empires separate from the "fantasy" Tekumel line. I know everyone still thought there was gold in them thar rpgs and no one could envision making wargames and minis being a path to success (other than GW), but it does make me wonder.


I'm breaking this into two replies, if I may...

Good find! :)

Phil was still wargaming in the early 1990's; Gronan played in his Megarra fantasy setting.

The 'wargaming' aspect of Tekumel died away pretty early on, with the stalemates in both the NE and NW Frontier campaigns. Once the original players in the Monday group dropped out, there was no real reason to run any Tekumel wargames - our adventures, which were based in the style of the D&D 'domain game', had the last real 'wargame' battle in late '86' or early '87, when we fought the battle of Anch'ke. (I won.) Phil's biggest issue with wargaming in Tekumel was, I think the very real possibility that the players would generate a result from a battle that didn't fit in with the timeline / plotline that Phil was following in his novels. Gronan's win at Third Mar, which took place while Phil was writing "Flamesong", caused Phil to alter his storyline slightly - Deq Dimani's brother gets killed off.

And, as Gronan points out, Phil was just not all that interested in doing wargame rules for Tekumel. Once "Missum" and "Legions" went out of print, I had to write "Qadardalikoi" simply to have something to play at conventions - like my suit of armor, it was originally thought of as a marketing device, needed to sell figures. In the event, Phil did adopt the rules, going so far as to write the copyright documents for me to sign and then paying the fee himself. After that, feeling that we now had a reasonable set of rules to use, he pretty much just lost interest - he wasn't all that big on the nitty-gritty of gaming anyway; languages and story-telling was his prime interest, and he was perfectly content for somebody else to write useable set of rules.

And, if I may be frank, the crap that Gronan and I took from the other group for anything we tired to do for Tekumel was a very big factor in both of our finally giving up and walking away from Tekumel publishing. There is an old tradition in Twin Cities fandom and gaming culture of 'The Finger-pointing and Jeering Committee', which is a group of people who don't actually want to do any work but want to be the ones in charge and having the highest prestige. We'd get to Phil's on Thursday nights and waste an hour or so trying to defend our latest efforts at publishing and promoting Phil's world to him, as he'd spent most of Monday night hearing from those people about what a crap job we were doing and about how we were, quote, "trying to steal Tekumel" from Phil. All of the stuff we published we did in the teeth of people who were much more concerned at their positions and politics around the throne then they were about what happened to Tekumel, and it has had an effect on Tekumel that persists to this day - the current Tekumel Foundation is largely made up of the old 'Finger-pointing and Jeering Committee' for Tekumel.

There were, and are, so many opportunities that have been lost due to this kind of thing, and so many really smart and talented people who have been lost to Tekumel and to gaming because of this sort of thing. "Humanspace Empires", I have been told, was a casualty of this; which was a pity, I thought, because it was so cool and a great extrapolation from what Phil was doing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 24, 2016, 06:54:01 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;915128

Another question, given that it seems like a lot of the Rules Are Off in the Underworld and What Happens in the Underworld Stays in the Underworld, if you robbed/looted some Underworld location and the owners found out, would they come after you in the world above? I mean, if you guys raided the Shrine/Temple of Sarku/Ksarul/Whomever in the Underworld and they found out it was Chirine and Co that did it, would they try and burgle/mug you above ground to get their stuff back? Would they confront you at your house or wherever? Could they go through the courts? Or would they just try and jump you the next time you went below ground?


Generally, it is considered bad form to take 'Underworld business' above ground; it normally doesn't happen, as the attitude is 'fair is fair' and 'if we were dumb enough to not guard the treasure, it's our own damn fault'. I can think of several instances where I was fighting somebody's minions in the morning and then having dinner with them in the evening - quite often, with the minions in attendance. It is considered 'noble action' to be gracious about these sorts of things - see also D'Artangian offering Athos some of his mother's wonderful ointment, as well as the polite relations between Musketeers and Cardinal's Guards (Which must have been an interesting time when the two units were amalgamated, later on...) A small gratuity for the minions is customary, and considered the height of politeness.

Usually, assuming that the people I'd just looted found out about it, they'd send somebody around to negotiate; if I was being unreasonable, then I'd expect a very polite visit from the Black Y or Ndalu clans, asking me to reconsider. I was still being a jerk about the matter, then I would expect a visit in the small hours of the night to get the loot back - which is where PCs come into the picture, as you might expect, being useful for denial purposes - and i'd be my own damn fault for getting burgled. Mugging in the streets is rude, and Not Done; going through the courts gets the Imperium involved, which is A Bad Idea; simply dry-gulching me next time I was in the Underworld would be the normal thing. Ransom is always worth collecting, as they say in Jakalla...

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 24, 2016, 06:59:51 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;915175
I know the timing for you guys was off but, man, it might have been a good fit. Except we would now be complaining about all the 13 year olds driving us crazy with their $400 boxed Pe Choi army for Humanspace Empires 8th edition instead of their $400 Space Elf on jet bike army for 40k.

Would you guys have been able to stomach making a rule set as, what is the proper term -non-complicated? beer and pretzel-ish? dumbed down?, as Warhammer? Even the early versions were far less complicated/realistic/whatever than most other games on the market at the time.


Agreed. I'd still be casting up Pe Choi for this, too. :)

We did stomach making a beer-and-pretzels wargame; it's called "Qadardalikoi", and Gronan spent considerable amounts of his time making sure that it is just as easy and fast to play as the original "Chainmail", which played very fast and fun when you got right down to it. It's less complicated then Warhammer; when i started in on writing the second edition of my rules, I did a lot of research into modern rules sets.

"Qadardalikoi" has been roundly denounced by wargamers as being "too simplistic", and RPGers as "too wargamy". I'm told that it was the best seller that Phil's last publisher had in his line. Go figure...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 24, 2016, 07:50:08 PM
Sigh.  Qadardalikoi is indeed an eminently playable game.

Dave Sutherland's "Legions of the Petal Throne" is, too, and it's also quite simple in the basic game.  And he even explains wargaming very explicitly for non wargamers.  If you're looking at it, you can see the influence of the Minnesota "Rather Argue Than Play" brigade in the incredible detail in which Dave lays out EVERYTHING, so there is absolutely NO wiggle room in certain parts of the rules.

Of course, 'More rules is always better' is a trend that started in the 1970s and still continues in some places today, so simple isn't always popular.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on August 24, 2016, 09:39:52 PM
I have, and rather enjoy, Qardardalikoi and I think you sell it short if you put it on par with warhammer, more so if we are talking later versions of warhammer. The only problem is finding people to play but that is a far too common problem with most games.

Interesting to picture sitting there with someone you just robbed or just robbed you, eating dinner, knowing that the next time you them underground or out of town they are going to try and clobber you. Sadly, sounds like some of your real life dealings with some of the other people involved with Tekumel.

And as always, you both are a fountain of knowledge! Many thanks!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron Opal on August 25, 2016, 01:07:40 AM
Interesting. I've been looking for a simple, straight-forward set of miniature combat rules, suitable for an afternoon's diversion. I may have to investigate this.

If a copy is actually purchasable anywhere.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 25, 2016, 07:46:46 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;915231
Sigh.  Qadardalikoi is indeed an eminently playable game.

Dave Sutherland's "Legions of the Petal Throne" is, too, and it's also quite simple in the basic game.  And he even explains wargaming very explicitly for non wargamers.  If you're looking at it, you can see the influence of the Minnesota "Rather Argue Than Play" brigade in the incredible detail in which Dave lays out EVERYTHING, so there is absolutely NO wiggle room in certain parts of the rules.

Of course, 'More rules is always better' is a trend that started in the 1970s and still continues in some places today, so simple isn't always popular.

Sigh. I miss "Legions", and Dave himself for that matter. I was genuinely touched when he gave me the rights to his Tekumel sculpts as a gift; he was a gentleman, as well as a great gamer. I was heartbroken when I finally found out the terms of his contract with TSR - which was why we never had the chance to republish his rules, back in the day. Carl Brodt was able to do it, as by then the contract had expired.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 25, 2016, 07:53:33 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;915249
I have, and rather enjoy, Qardardalikoi and I think you sell it short if you put it on par with warhammer, more so if we are talking later versions of warhammer. The only problem is finding people to play but that is a far too common problem with most games.

Interesting to picture sitting there with someone you just robbed or just robbed you, eating dinner, knowing that the next time you them underground or out of town they are going to try and clobber you. Sadly, sounds like some of your real life dealings with some of the other people involved with Tekumel.

And as always, you both are a fountain of knowledge! Many thanks!

I'm delighted that you enjoy the rules! I think I'd have to agree with you, too; I got a copy of the GW rules, as well as the "General's Compendium", and never got the hang of how the rules were supposed to work - big buckets of dice, was my impression. Wound up giving the two volumes to one of my younger players - he got a lot of use out of them.

Well, it does make for interesting after-dinner conversations. It was always business, never personal, and I can think of times when my direst foes on one occasion were my staunchest allies on another. Which is one of the things that makes Tekumel as Phil practiced it so interesting; it does have an effect on politeness knowing that you might need a favor from somebody, and they might need one from you. Like when Lady Jannule plotted my murder, when I was Governor of Hekellu; one of the other factions in the Temple of Sarku sent somebody around to warn me, and we made sure to get them out of town in return.

Frankly, I'd rather be dealing with the people from Tekumel; they are, in general, more polite, more trustworthy, and have better manners. And more common sense, too, from what I've seen.

You're welcome; we try... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 25, 2016, 07:55:07 PM
Quote from: Baron Opal;915271
Interesting. I've been looking for a simple, straight-forward set of miniature combat rules, suitable for an afternoon's diversion. I may have to investigate this.

If a copy is actually purchasable anywhere.

Try Carl Brodt, of Tita's House of Games; he may still have copies left in his inventory. If he does not, and you don't mind copies that have seen action at the game table, let me know as I have spares.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 26, 2016, 12:55:23 AM
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20160824#.V7_Le6JwQ6Y

And that, class, is why we took a Tubeway Car for the first time...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 26, 2016, 01:01:36 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;915443
I'm delighted that you enjoy the rules! I think I'd have to agree with you, too; I got a copy of the GW rules, as well as the "General's Compendium", and never got the hang of how the rules were supposed to work - big buckets of dice, was my impression. Wound up giving the two volumes to one of my younger players - he got a lot of use out of them.

GW does a "burn and churn" model; they are continually coming out with new figures with capabilities that make the old figures much less powerful.

Sadly, that or some variation seems to be a big trend in miniatures gaming.  Even the new X-Wing game that I was so excited about has that; beyond the starter sets it's all about buying the uber macho new variants with all the cool added abilities and shit like that.

The notion that "all P-40C Kittyhawks are alike and the only determinant is player skill" seems to be virtually obsolete.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on August 26, 2016, 06:04:18 AM
Out of the blue question perhaps, but I've been slowly preparing a Tekumel adventure, I can already foresee that my players will ask me the following question: what does the Emperor's Seal actually look like? Representations of it are present in all clan-houses of the empire after all.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 26, 2016, 06:32:22 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;915479
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20160824#.V7_Le6JwQ6Y

And that, class, is why we took a Tubeway Car for the first time...


:) Nice to see Phil Foglio hasn't lost his touch!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 26, 2016, 06:34:26 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;915481
GW does a "burn and churn" model; they are continually coming out with new figures with capabilities that make the old figures much less powerful.

Sadly, that or some variation seems to be a big trend in miniatures gaming.  Even the new X-Wing game that I was so excited about has that; beyond the starter sets it's all about buying the uber macho new variants with all the cool added abilities and shit like that.

The notion that "all P-40C Kittyhawks are alike and the only determinant is player skill" seems to be virtually obsolete.


And which is why I don't like 'tournament play' or points value systems. I'm a campaign gamer, first last and always.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 26, 2016, 06:44:25 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;915501
Out of the blue question perhaps, but I've been slowly preparing a Tekumel adventure, I can already foresee that my players will ask me the following question: what does the Emperor's Seal actually look like? Representations of it are present in all clan-houses of the empire after all.

An artist has a copy of the Kolumel at this site:
 
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/tags/tekumel/interesting/ (http://www.flickriver.com/photos/tags/tekumel/interesting/)

And I can shoot you photos of my standard and the various other depictions we have on file. Let me know... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 26, 2016, 01:53:16 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;915481
The notion that "all P-40C Kittyhawks are alike and the only determinant is player skill" seems to be virtually obsolete.


That would imply that the target market would need to have skill to use them.
How big of a market would that leave?

One advantage of the internet is that you can have a subset of a subset and still have a lot.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 27, 2016, 08:16:04 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;915562
That would imply that the target market would need to have skill to use them.
How big of a market would that leave?

One advantage of the internet is that you can have a subset of a subset and still have a lot.
=

Which does raise an interesting question for me...

Back in Ye Olden Dayes, 'the rules' were a set of scattered notes in Dave and Gary's three-ring binders. One had to develop a particular set of skills to survive in those games, as one was sorta 'feeling out' how the world worked. Today, of course, we have a very large and very wide variety of game rule sets to choose from, and from my perspective it seems that an entirely different set of skills are needed to survive in them - what's been called, I think, the balance between 'crunch' and 'fluff'. I strongly favor detailed and deeply-textured 'fluff', and prefer simple and fast 'crunch', which is why "Qadardalikoi" had such a large proportion of campaign game material in it; I had been getting asked by people 'how do you set up a campaign', so I thought I should include the material.

These days, I'm not so sure it would be useful to include that kind of thing. My feeling, based on what I'm seeing in the local FLGS and at conventions, 'one-offs' are the usual style of gaming. So, what I'm thinking of is dropping the campaign information in the second edition and giving scenarios that people can just sit and play - and perhaps borrowing a notion from the wonderful "Complete Brigadier" and providing 'overhead view' counters the same size as the figures' bases to get the players started. I have these games already done in 'pre-packaged' form, as I've built them for my own games and have them stored ready for use, and my thought was that I could include photos of the games along with the scenario texts.

And, of course, there's the thought in the back of my mind that I am a very old-fashioned gamer, playing old-fashioned games. Should I even bother?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 27, 2016, 12:09:04 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;915672
Which does raise an interesting question for me...
...
And, of course, there's the thought in the back of my mind that I am a very old-fashioned gamer, playing old-fashioned games. Should I even bother?

The internet is a very big place. If you post them, they will come.
As for making money from it, that is a lot more nuanced.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 27, 2016, 12:26:14 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;915700
The internet is a very big place. If you post them, they will come.
As for making money from it, that is a lot more nuanced.
=

Very good point!

As I think I've mentioned here and on my blog, the idea is that the second edition would be available as a 'free-to-download' off the Internet, either as an e-book or a PDF. I very strongly doubt that the first edition sold more then 300 copies over the past thirty years, and working with that number as a base point it became very obvious very quickly that there was simply no way that I could do a 'commercial' edition that would be available at any sort of reasonable cost to the gamer due to the background production costs. I want to illustrate the 'book' with color photos of the miniatures and of actual games, so printing costs did enter into this; the other 'overhead' costs are all way to high for today's game hobby, and so price the thing out of practical production.

And, in general, Tekumel books have never made back their production costs - let alone pay for their printing - over the years. Niche of a niche, and all that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 27, 2016, 09:02:01 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;915672
Which does raise an interesting question for me...

Back in Ye Olden Dayes, 'the rules' were a set of scattered notes in Dave and Gary's three-ring binders. One had to develop a particular set of skills to survive in those games, as one was sorta 'feeling out' how the world worked. Today, of course, we have a very large and very wide variety of game rule sets to choose from, and from my perspective it seems that an entirely different set of skills are needed to survive in them - what's been called, I think, the balance between 'crunch' and 'fluff'. I strongly favor detailed and deeply-textured 'fluff', and prefer simple and fast 'crunch', which is why "Qadardalikoi" had such a large proportion of campaign game material in it; I had been getting asked by people 'how do you set up a campaign', so I thought I should include the material.

These days, I'm not so sure it would be useful to include that kind of thing. My feeling, based on what I'm seeing in the local FLGS and at conventions, 'one-offs' are the usual style of gaming. So, what I'm thinking of is dropping the campaign information in the second edition and giving scenarios that people can just sit and play - and perhaps borrowing a notion from the wonderful "Complete Brigadier" and providing 'overhead view' counters the same size as the figures' bases to get the players started. I have these games already done in 'pre-packaged' form, as I've built them for my own games and have them stored ready for use, and my thought was that I could include photos of the games along with the scenario texts.

And, of course, there's the thought in the back of my mind that I am a very old-fashioned gamer, playing old-fashioned games. Should I even bother?


I don't see why you couldn't just include this as an appendix: "Appendix A: Creating Campaigns", "Appendix B: The Tsolyani Army", etc... This way you keep it separate from the main body of rules, but it's still there for those who are interested. I just can't see how you can have a game set on Tekumel and not include fluff. This is such an integral part of what gaming on Tekumel is all about (and I'm not talking about the pedantic minutiae here either).
What level will Qadardalikoi MKII (;)) be geared for, tactical, strategic, or skirmish? It would seem that skirmish level wargaming is quite popular these days, and to have a skirmish option for the game could go a long way.  

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 28, 2016, 08:26:57 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;915788
I don't see why you couldn't just include this as an appendix: "Appendix A: Creating Campaigns", "Appendix B: The Tsolyani Army", etc... This way you keep it separate from the main body of rules, but it's still there for those who are interested. I just can't see how you can have a game set on Tekumel and not include fluff. This is such an integral part of what gaming on Tekumel is all about (and I'm not talking about the pedantic minutiae here either).

Good points! I had planned to reorganize the rules, with the games building from small to large to campaign gaming. The actual rules themselves are pretty short; most of the first edition is actually 'fluff', explaining how Phil thought that warfare worked on his world.

I agree with you about the 'fluff', which is why I was so startled when the Tekumel Foundation told me about their idea to republish EPT without the Tekumel elements of the original; I was told that such a game would be a sure-fire seller to the OSR community and that a Very Big Name OSR Author would be doing the conversion. The notion that was expounded to me was that my miniatures rules would be a great OSR product, if only I dropped all that Tekumel stuff and changed the name to something that OSR people could pronounce. I declined; if I wanted to play "Chainmail", I'd play "Chainmail".

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;915788
What level will Qadardalikoi MKII (;)) be geared for, tactical, strategic, or skirmish? It would seem that skirmish level wargaming is quite popular these days, and to have a skirmish option for the game could go a long way.  

Shemek

This goes all the way back to the dawn of time, where 'fantasy gaming' consisted of tables full of lead re-staging the battles in Tolkien. My very first exposure to such games was at the Little Tin, where the locals had lined up about sixty square feet of miniatures on the two sides of a huge table and were about to shove the vast hordes into each other. (I suggested getting the mechanism from one or more of those 'electric football' games, and simply vibrate the table to move the figures.) The experience has had an effect on me to this day.

Back in the day, we did lots of skirmish games as they'd just been invented - by the colonials players, as I recall; see also Larry Brom's "The Sword and the Flame" - and had a lot of fun doing them; it was a step up from the one-on-one play of RPGs, and a nice medium down from the big battles we were fighting. The first edition was aimed at the kind of campaign games and larger battles we were fighting out at Phil's at the time, as well as the kind of play that the existing miniatures line was intended for.

So, you'll be seeing a game that will cover skirmishes, the ritual Qadarni battles (Think the Aztec 'Flower Wars', here), the larger campaign battles of a larger war, and things like sieges and naval fights. I'll also be suggesting more detailed rules for things like strategic games - Steve Pisani's "Missumdalikoi", for example - and smaller games like "Song of the Petal Throne". My idea is to have a sort of generic introductory set of rules that will generate all sorts of games for players, and give one a foothold in Tekumel. I'm hoping that I can introduce people to the kind of gaming that we did, back in the day, and maybe give a feeling for that kind of play style.

And photos, which I could only dream of back in the day... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on August 29, 2016, 08:27:22 AM
Since you are e-publishing, photos would be a snap but another thing you could think of would be to link to videos on your youtube channel. You could show actual rules in play on the table and get to show some of your collection! I know this would be more work but it would be pretty neat. I can't speak for anyone else but I would be happy to volunteer to help!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;915853
I suggested getting the mechanism from one or more of those 'electric football' games, and simply vibrate the table to move the figures.
I recently found one of these in a closet where I work, a 1967 model no less, that still works. I am going to have to try this although I figure many "newer" sculpts will simply fall over as casualties very quickly. Then again some of the newer 32mm super duper extra heroic scale guys are so heavy they may not move at all.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on August 29, 2016, 01:11:37 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;915975
You could show actual rules in play on the table and get to show some of your collection!

This would get traffic as people are even more visually orientated now that it is common to see Actual Play videos.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 29, 2016, 05:28:54 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;915975
Since you are e-publishing, photos would be a snap but another thing you could think of would be to link to videos on your youtube channel. You could show actual rules in play on the table and get to show some of your collection! I know this would be more work but it would be pretty neat. I can't speak for anyone else but I would be happy to volunteer to help!

Thank you - I will be taking you up on this!

I agree; this is a very good way to teach people how the game works. I had been talking to Steve Pisani, the author of "Missumdalikoi", about this, and he pointed out that I needed to write the text differently because - unlike back in our convention show days - I was not going to be there to teach people. I thought for a second, and said "What about a DVD?"; I still retain the in-house capability to do three-camera shoots with graphics and titles, so we have the technology to do this. I would very much like to have 'outside' people look at what I have in mind, and YouTube is a great way to get the information out to people.

And yes, the miniatures collection is becoming more and more the 'cast of thousands' for the rules and for my book - one of the things that I'm doing is shooting photos of our adventures as I'm writing them up, and since I'm using the figures I did for them back in the day, you'll be able to see what we saw on Phil's table. The only difference is that we'll have better scenery, and not just the plain green carpet Phil had.

Quote from: Big Andy;915975
I recently found one of these in a closet where I work, a 1967 model no less, that still works. I am going to have to try this although I figure many "newer" sculpts will simply fall over as casualties very quickly. Then again some of the newer 32mm super duper extra heroic scale guys are so heavy they may not move at all.

Pre-painted plastics?

Have a look at the football figures bases; I'm told that some have brushes on the bottom to make them move better. I'd suggest stick-on felt pads, or maybe the 'carpet' part of Velcro stripping... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 29, 2016, 05:35:06 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;916013
This would get traffic as people are even more visually orientated now that it is common to see Actual Play videos.
=
I strongly agree with this, especially as the costs of going to conventions just seems to keep going up and up; I used to do all of my 'marketing' that way, as Gronan will attest, but I think you're right - the Web is the way to go, these days.

And with an electronic medium, I think I can embed the links right into the text, so that if one is reading a section one could go to the appropriate video that explains and illustrates that section.

And actual play videos would be fun to do; we'd set up the shoot and simply let the recorders run. The rules themselves would impart a certain structure to the video, and I would doubt that a 'scripted' game would be very useful. The cries of agony and joy from the players would also add to the appeal of the thing, I think... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron Opal on August 29, 2016, 05:41:04 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;916050
And actual play videos would be fun to do; we'd set up the shoot and simply let the recorders run. The rules themselves would impart a certain structure to the video, and I would doubt that a 'scripted' game would be very useful. The cries of agony and joy from the players would also add to the appeal of the thing, I think... :)

Ooohh! Maybe you could do a time-lapse kind of thing, with the cries of the players as a sound track. I would enjoy that.

Is there benefit from getting Qadikoriloi and Missumadalikoi? (I've butchered that, I'm sure.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 29, 2016, 05:42:54 PM
Speaking of actual play video, we did record the 2015 Gary Con game, but I don't think it's very good; the very high ambient noise level pretty much washes out the table talk.

Had a thought; I could set up the camera system and just run an EPT game. Wouldn't be hard to get people together for a one-off, like a Jakalla trip or "Tomb Complex", I think. The Missus would run the switcher and mixer, so we'd get really good audio and video, without me having to hop around like a demented lunatic. Must think about this...

(When's the next time you're going to be in town, there, my General? I think it'd be a scream to get a bunch of us old Tekumel vets together for a game, like all the original Blackmoor guys did a couple of months ago... ) :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on August 29, 2016, 06:14:39 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;915504
An artist has a copy of the Kolumel at this site:
 http://www.flickriver.com/photos/tags/tekumel/interesting/ (http://www.flickriver.com/photos/tags/tekumel/interesting/)
And I can shoot you photos of my standard and the various other depictions we have on file. Let me know... :)


Oh lovely. A lot of those I had never seen before ... except, ironically, the representation of the Seal of the Emperor itself! And there I was wondering if it even existed. I simply couldn't track it down any more and was wondering if I had not dreamt it. It seems to be the artist's interpretation of it, based on the Prof's descriptions, but it looks great. I shall use it. Thanks for the link.

And, yes, if you have the time, I would very much appreciate a photo of Chirine's standard, if that's not already visible on your blog (in that case, a simple link would suffice).

Quote from: Big Andy;915975
I know this would be more work but it would be pretty neat. I can't speak for anyone else but I would be happy to volunteer to help!


I'm a pro-video editor by trade. If you need help/advice about codecs, multicam editing, or anything related to video editing, let me know. I'd be happy to get involved.

--

A new question now, regarding the "Weapon Without Answer": where and by whom was it found? Anything else you know about it, besides what we get in "The Man of Gold" or the solo adventures?
Also, did Chirine himself ever come close to it? Was Chirine ever hired to sabotage its excavation or even its transport, by any chance (before the "Man of Gold" events that is)?
I've been thinking of introducing such storyline into my game (with the understanding that such a mighty adventure would take place before the war with Yan Kor has officially been declared).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 29, 2016, 07:04:57 PM
Greetings Uncle,

I hope all is well. I have a quick inquiry to make. Might you have any information or insight into the Hotékpu - A greater from of undead...??? I came across that reference the other day. I remember not where. Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 29, 2016, 10:53:24 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;916069
Greetings Uncle,

I hope all is well. I have a quick inquiry to make. Might you have any information or insight into the Hotékpu -

H:0)


Gesundheit! Are you coming down with a cold Mighty Hrugga of the Epics? Perhaps a touch of Lord Uni's Affable Blight?  :p

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on August 29, 2016, 11:30:22 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;916107
Gesundheit! Are you coming down with a cold Mighty Hrugga of the Epics? Perhaps a touch of Lord Uni's Affable Blight?  :p

Shemek


Ahh!!! I am well my friend. As I hope are you. I have been travelling the planes. Visiting a bit with the mighty servitors of The Lord of the Flame and Mrugga...As you know, I am always on the move. Expect me one day on your doorstep in Pechano for a nice long hunt and a bit of clean country air!!!

H;0)

PS Nothing like good clean air to get the Sro out of your system...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 30, 2016, 06:50:48 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;916054
Oh lovely. A lot of those I had never seen before ... except, ironically, the representation of the Seal of the Emperor itself! And there I was wondering if it even existed. I simply couldn't track it down any more and was wondering if I had not dreamt it. It seems to be the artist's interpretation of it, based on the Prof's descriptions, but it looks great. I shall use it. Thanks for the link.

And, yes, if you have the time, I would very much appreciate a photo of Chirine's standard, if that's not already visible on your blog (in that case, a simple link would suffice).



I'm a pro-video editor by trade. If you need help/advice about codecs, multicam editing, or anything related to video editing, let me know. I'd be happy to get involved.

--

A new question now, regarding the "Weapon Without Answer": where and by whom was it found? Anything else you know about it, besides what we get in "The Man of Gold" or the solo adventures?
Also, did Chirine himself ever come close to it? Was Chirine ever hired to sabotage its excavation or even its transport, by any chance (before the "Man of Gold" events that is)?
I've been thinking of introducing such storyline into my game (with the understanding that such a mighty adventure would take place before the war with Yan Kor has officially been declared).


The Kolumel; the only drawing by Phil we have of this was for my article on coins; I'll see about scanning both it and the photo for you.

I'll take you up on your very kind offer; spent last nigh digging out video gear and getting everything back in working order, as I haven't touched any of it since we did Phil's memorial event.

---

The thing is apparently a hunk of ancient Three-Light drive, taken out of a ship and made 'portable'. The black box aspect of the thing is a framework draped with cloth to hide the actual technology of the thing, and is one of Phil's oldest and funniest in-jokes - which I didn't get until we were going through his slides for the memorial event, and I saw the photos he'd taken of it. (And though "You got me again, Phil!" and laughed quite a lot in his memory.) It works by cutting off the connection to the Planes Beyond, and then moving something in time-space (Arneson's little 'dimension hopper' device is a much smaller version) and I'd guess is also some sort of 'force-field' generator. It also supposedly has a tractor-pressor beam generator, too.

The thing is absurdly well-guarded, and Lord Fu Shi is usually hanging around the thing - it's thought that he and his masters from the other side of the planet provided the device to Baron Ald. We looked in at the thing, after the war got started, and couldn't get anywhere near the thing. Looked nice on the massve cart they made for it, and it's be one heck of a model on the table. (Which I will have to make, now that we have Chlen from Howard Fielding...)

What else do you need for your adventure?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 30, 2016, 07:02:02 AM
Quote from: Baron Opal;916051
Ooohh! Maybe you could do a time-lapse kind of thing, with the cries of the players as a sound track. I would enjoy that.

Is there benefit from getting Qadikoriloi and Missumadalikoi? (I've butchered that, I'm sure.)


Oh! like stop-motion animation! That'd be fun!

If you are interested in military stuff, yes; otherwise, maybe not...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 30, 2016, 07:06:51 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;916069
Greetings Uncle,

I hope all is well. I have a quick inquiry to make. Might you have any information or insight into the Hotékpu - A greater from of undead...??? I came across that reference the other day. I remember not where. Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you,

H:0)


In our games with Phil, these were the 'medium-level' Undead; he put the Mr'ur, the bottom of the line undead in EPT 'cause you'd run into them a lot, but we started noticing that these had 'leaders' who were pretty good and could use magic. These are them, as far as I know, and the Jadgi are the top of the line Undead. As for stats, I'd double anything a Mr'ur had, or use the stats for a Qol, as they are pretty much the same in practice.

The Temple of Sarku, if you wanted my opinion, is a bizarre place even by Tekumel's standards...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 30, 2016, 07:40:41 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;915481
The notion that "all P-40C Kittyhawks are alike and the only determinant is player skill" seems to be virtually obsolete.
A company can sell a new model, mini, or collectible card. It’s difficult to sell "player skill."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 30, 2016, 12:40:54 PM
Quote from: Bren;916169
A company can sell a new model, mini, or collectible card. It’s difficult to sell "player skill."

Sigh.  I know.  I understand it as a marketing strategy.  I'm just sorry it's become the overwhelming default, to the point where "practice makes you better" is anathema to a good share of players.

Way back around 1984 or 1985 I asked Forrest Brown of FASA why the original TV show Enterprise, which was supposed to be "the mightiest ship in space," was a third-rate also-ran in the FASA game.  He said, and I quote, "We're selling to wargamers.  Guns sell, and big guns sell better."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 30, 2016, 01:11:42 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;916212
Sigh.  I know.  I understand it as a marketing strategy.  I'm just sorry it's become the overwhelming default, to the point where "practice makes you better" is anathema to a good share of players.
It's difficult sometimes not to look back fondly at yesteryear and what sometimes now seems a more innocent and pure appreciation of the hobby as a labor of love rather than a crass commercial enterprise. And there are times when I'd enjoy some more tactically minded play. But then I remember that gaming was far from perfect in my youth either.

Quote
Way back around 1984 or 1985 I asked Forrest Brown of FASA why the original TV show Enterprise, which was supposed to be "the mightiest ship in space," was a third-rate also-ran in the FASA game.  He said, and I quote, "We're selling to wargamers.  Guns sell, and big guns sell better."
Didn't Task Force Games Star Fleet Battles create more powerful ship classes well before FASA?

Which would just echo or illustrate Forrest Brown's point as Star Fleet Battles was clearly designed as a wargame for wargamers.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on August 31, 2016, 09:50:57 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;916212
Sigh.  I know.  I understand it as a marketing strategy.  I'm just sorry it's become the overwhelming default, to the point where "practice makes you better" is anathema to a good share of players.

Way back around 1984 or 1985 I asked Forrest Brown of FASA why the original TV show Enterprise, which was supposed to be "the mightiest ship in space," was a third-rate also-ran in the FASA game.  He said, and I quote, "We're selling to wargamers.  Guns sell, and big guns sell better."

All of which wouldn't bother me half as much if every company didn't insist that this not what they are doing and everything is "balanced" and is just a natural progression of the game. Sure, we just rolled out a new line that has every counter to the previous Unbeatable minis/cards/whatever, but they are all fluff based and completely balanced, not designed to make you buy more stuff to replace the stuff you already have, nor will every player that makes the Championship (another thing I don't like) have all the new stuff in it. Don't blow smoke up me captain's quarters.

And I hate hearing the word "combo" in miniature games, as in "my army is designed to set up this combo, which will give me the win." Combined arms, I get. Lining (pretend) soldiers up so this condition triggers this guy's effects, which turns on this guy's feat, which makes this guy's weapon do a jillion million damage for this turn, which ends the game, not so much.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on August 31, 2016, 01:15:41 PM
Sadly that's what the X-wing game becomes.  "I move 4 so I automatically get an Evade, and this card lets me do an extra Action, so I'm doing a Target Lock, and this card gives me an extra die, so your ship turns into a soggy pumpkin and three white mice."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 31, 2016, 04:23:12 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;916405
Sadly that's what the X-wing game becomes.  "I move 4 so I automatically get an Evade, and this card lets me do an extra Action, so I'm doing a Target Lock, and this card gives me an extra die, so your ship turns into a soggy pumpkin and three white mice."
When I want a game like that, there are a bunch of card games, like Illuminati, to choose from.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on August 31, 2016, 05:51:26 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;916054

And, yes, if you have the time, I would very much appreciate a photo of Chirine's standard, if that's not already visible on your blog (in that case, a simple link would suffice).


I'm trying to load an attachment with my standard in grey scale so you can see the design more clearly. All I did was enlarge Phil's drawing and carve it into the surface of the disc. The thing was mounted on a six foot pole with a base, and had red fabric with blue and gold ribbons; tassels in green, red, and black to indicate actions I was in. This was my standard as Governor of Hekellu, during Phil's Hekellu-Sirsum micro-campaign.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]319[/ATTACH]

You can see a color version in the "Der SpiegeL Online" article about Prof. Barker; try http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-16622-galleryV9-mdcb.jpg (http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-16622-galleryV9-mdcb.jpg) but the flash kinda wipes out the detail.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on August 31, 2016, 06:57:27 PM
Attachment 319, the BW picture, doesn't work properly.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on August 31, 2016, 10:02:15 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;916459


[ATTACH=CONFIG]319[/ATTACH]

You can see a color version in the "Der SpiegeL Online" article about Prof. Barker; try http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-16622-galleryV9-mdcb.jpg (http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-16622-galleryV9-mdcb.jpg) but the flash kinda wipes out the detail.


Hey Chirine,

Out of curiosity is that Phil's office, where the picture's taken? Is that the Glorious General to your right? :D

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on September 01, 2016, 07:54:59 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;916161
The Kolumel; the only drawing by Phil we have of this was for my article on coins; I'll see about scanning both it and the photo for you.

I'll take you up on your very kind offer; spent last nigh digging out video gear and getting everything back in working order, as I haven't touched any of it since we did Phil's memorial event.

---

The thing is apparently a hunk of ancient Three-Light drive, taken out of a ship and made 'portable'. The black box aspect of the thing is a framework draped with cloth to hide the actual technology of the thing, and is one of Phil's oldest and funniest in-jokes - which I didn't get until we were going through his slides for the memorial event, and I saw the photos he'd taken of it. (And though "You got me again, Phil!" and laughed quite a lot in his memory.) It works by cutting off the connection to the Planes Beyond, and then moving something in time-space (Arneson's little 'dimension hopper' device is a much smaller version) and I'd guess is also some sort of 'force-field' generator. It also supposedly has a tractor-pressor beam generator, too.

The thing is absurdly well-guarded, and Lord Fu Shi is usually hanging around the thing - it's thought that he and his masters from the other side of the planet provided the device to Baron Ald. We looked in at the thing, after the war got started, and couldn't get anywhere near the thing. Looked nice on the massve cart they made for it, and it's be one heck of a model on the table. (Which I will have to make, now that we have Chlen from Howard Fielding...)

What else do you need for your adventure?


Can you explain the in-joke?

Also, sawing out a hunk out a hunk of Three Light drive sounds absurdly dangerous and makes me think of the Vietnamese going out and sawing apart dud bombs to get the HE out of them. One wrong move and your future weapon activates on you. Did the Weapon ever get used? In the novels and sourcebooks it just seems to roll around slowly as a threat, with no one really knowing what it does.

And, yes, you need to model it. And then show us the pictures. Sorry to throw more work on you ;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 01, 2016, 01:37:18 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;916555
Did the Weapon ever get used?

In "Man of Gold" at the end, it said that it was but most didn't know because of what it actually did.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron Opal on September 01, 2016, 02:34:25 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;916555
Can you explain the in-joke?

And, yes, you need to model it. And then show us the pictures. Sorry to throw more work on you ;)

I think it was expected to be a caged demon of some sort, rather than an ultra-tech device.

How big would it be? It's been ages since I read the book, but would a 5" cube under the canvas be on scale?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on September 01, 2016, 02:59:03 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;916161
What else do you need for your adventure?

So far ... more time to think about them! I'll get back to you when I have further questions (and I will have more of them!)
In the mean time, thanks for the details on the Weapon Without Answer.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;916459
You can see a color version in the "Der SpiegeL Online" article about Prof. Barker; try http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-16622-galleryV9-mdcb.jpg (http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-16622-galleryV9-mdcb.jpg) but the flash kinda wipes out the detail.

Yes, the details are washed out. I had seen that picture before without realizing that the Emperor's Seal was hanging there. Very cool.

As for you attachment: as mentioned already, for some reason, the one you posted failed to take digital root, so to speak.
I've attempted to post my own attachment, the Spiegel's photo:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]323[/ATTACH]

... and it worked.
The Spiegel image, as downloaded on my computer, is a JPG. Perhaps is the picture you attempted to post saved in some other format, one not recognized by the RPGSite? Try a JPG or a PNG if you can.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on September 01, 2016, 06:59:25 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;916599
In "Man of Gold" at the end, it said that it was but most didn't know because of what it actually did.
=

I know the Man of Gold was used but no one knew what it did but, as I remember, the Weapon seemed to burn out, electrically speaking, with black smoke pouring out of the cube, and the Baron's army retreating because of its malfunction. I will have to go back and check.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 02, 2016, 06:19:58 AM
Let's try this...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]325[/ATTACH]
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 02, 2016, 06:22:07 AM
Quote from: Bren;916466
Attachment 319, the BW picture, doesn't work properly.

Thanks for letting me know; I tested it after I posted, and it worked the first time. However, then all I got was an 'invalid attachment' notice. I tried something different - see post #4308... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 02, 2016, 06:24:59 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;916493
Hey Chirine,

Out of curiosity is that Phil's office, where the picture's taken? Is that the Glorious General to your right? :D

Shemek

It's the mezzanine gaming area at the original Source Games, where I was doing a gaming session trying to promote Tekumel; this was back when we were still trying to keep Tekumel Games afloat.

No, it is not. For a photo of me and the Glorious General (with Dave Wesely as a bonus!) see my recent blog posts... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 02, 2016, 06:36:49 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;916555
Can you explain the in-joke?

Also, sawing out a hunk out a hunk of Three Light drive sounds absurdly dangerous and makes me think of the Vietnamese going out and sawing apart dud bombs to get the HE out of them. One wrong move and your future weapon activates on you. Did the Weapon ever get used? In the novels and sourcebooks it just seems to roll around slowly as a threat, with no one really knowing what it does.

And, yes, you need to model it. And then show us the pictures. Sorry to throw more work on you ;)

We never saw or heard of the thing actually being used as a weapon, so nobody had a clear idea of what it did. Al of us being SF fans, we assumed the worst in technological devices. The news that activating the Man of Gold had popped it's fuses was the first 'hard information' we had on the damn thing.

Phil's joke on all of us Midwestern cultural illiterates? What's a big cubical object, covered in black cloth which has got gold calligraphy around the top, and is 'The Weapon Without Answer"?

After Phil passed away, we were helping get the house ready to be sold, and there on the bedroom windowsill was a 6" cube that matched Phil's description of the thing. And I sat down and laughed, thinking Phil had gotten me again, even after all these years.

In the Holy City of Mecca, in the Al-Masjid Al-Haram, is the first temple where the Prophet - Blessed be his Name! - cast down the idols and established the first mosque. Phil's description of his mighty Black Box is that of Islam's holiest site, the Qaaba (or Kaaba, depending on how you translate the Arabic word.)

Ah. me. Ah, Phil... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 02, 2016, 06:38:23 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;916599
In "Man of Gold" at the end, it said that it was but most didn't know because of what it actually did.
=

Exactly. We still really don't know what the thing was / is; as far as I know, it's still sitting out there someplace in Yan Kor in storage.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 02, 2016, 06:42:22 AM
Quote from: Baron Opal;916609
I think it was expected to be a caged demon of some sort, rather than an ultra-tech device.

How big would it be? It's been ages since I read the book, but would a 5" cube under the canvas be on scale?

Agreed! The fantasy fans in the group all thought this as well, so you're right on track.

Yes; I was going to get one of those 5" - 6" open-cell foam cubes that they sell in crafts stores for floral decorations, fill it with my usual acrylic wood filler, add the cloth cover (and do the Yan Koryani glyphs, of course) and put the the whole thing on a scratch-built wagon. Chlen from Howard Fielding, on harnesses made from crafts chain.

I thought that it would make a cool game scenario, where the players have to sneak up on the thing and the guards to see what they could find out... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 02, 2016, 06:44:19 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;916622
So far ... more time to think about them! I'll get back to you when I have further questions (and I will have more of them!)
In the mean time, thanks for the details on the Weapon Without Answer.



Yes, the details are washed out. I had seen that picture before without realizing that the Emperor's Seal was hanging there. Very cool.

As for you attachment: as mentioned already, for some reason, the one you posted failed to take digital root, so to speak.
I've attempted to post my own attachment, the Spiegel's photo:

... and it worked.
The Spiegel image, as downloaded on my computer, is a JPG. Perhaps is the picture you attempted to post saved in some other format, one not recognized by the RPGSite? Try a JPG or a PNG if you can.

You're welcome! I had a much better connection this morning, and I managed to get the photo posted for you.

Glad you thought the thing was cool; w loved to build this sort of thing, as it seemed to amuse and delight people. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 02, 2016, 06:45:31 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;916671
I know the Man of Gold was used but no one knew what it did but, as I remember, the Weapon seemed to burn out, electrically speaking, with black smoke pouring out of the cube, and the Baron's army retreating because of its malfunction. I will have to go back and check.

Yep; popped all of it's fuses, as it were. Lord Fu Shi was not amused. :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 02, 2016, 12:11:53 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;916733
Let's try this...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]325[/ATTACH]


That's much better. That really is a nice design. I've always liked its symmetry.
I think that this might be another one of Phil's "in jokes", as the Imperial Seal is very much in the spirit of the Arabic Calligraphers, specifically those who use the Muhaqqaq style. If you compare the above image with the ornately stylized examples of the Basmala I think you can really see the similarities, and inspiration. Not too surprising really as this type of calligraphy was especially popular during the Mameluke period, and the Mamelukes could be found in India: the "Mameluke Dynasty" (1206-1290), and in Egypt: "Mameluke Sultante" (1250-1517). I don't know how much these two institutions inspired Phil during the creation of Tekumel, but I'm sure there are elements that can be found somewhere in Tsolyanu or the Five Empires.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 02, 2016, 12:32:12 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;916733
Let's try this...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]325[/ATTACH]
Much better. Thanks.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 02, 2016, 01:38:22 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;916737
Exactly. We still really don't know what the thing was / is; as far as I know, it's still sitting out there someplace in Yan Kor in storage.

Uncle,

Oh, I was confusing myself(it has been some time since I read MoG)!!! The Man of Gold and The Weapon Without Answer...The Man of Gold prevented the Goddess from entering Tekumel. Also "killed" her minions(a He'essa?)on Tekumel(unless I'm wrong)!?!? Any hints that The Professor left behind, as to what The Weapon Without Answer does?

Also, I remember reading about a device/artifact that creates a kind of forcefield(was that the WWA)???

Thanks,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on September 02, 2016, 05:53:01 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;916736
In the Holy City of Mecca, in the Al-Masjid Al-Haram, is the first temple where the Prophet - Blessed be his Name! - cast down the idols and established the first mosque. Phil's description of his mighty Black Box is that of Islam's holiest site, the Qaaba (or Kaaba, depending on how you translate the Arabic word.)


I love that parallel, between the WwA and the Kaaba. At the very least, one inspired the appearance of the other.
I remember this academic who contacted the Tékumel Yahoo group a little while back. She was interested in finding out how the Professor's faith had influenced or at the very least seeped into the world of Tékumel.
I hope we get to read the result of her investigation one of these days as I find the subject fascinating.

In any event, thanks very much for posting the Kólumel. The design is very clear now.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 02, 2016, 09:45:30 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;916736
In the Holy City of Mecca, in the Al-Masjid Al-Haram, is the first temple where the Prophet - Blessed be his Name! - cast down the idols and established the first mosque. Phil's description of his mighty Black Box is that of Islam's holiest site, the Qaaba (or Kaaba, depending on how you translate the Arabic word.)

Ah. me. Ah, Phil... :)

* headdesk *

41 years.  41... bloody ... years.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 03, 2016, 07:14:46 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;916779
That's much better. That really is a nice design. I've always liked its symmetry.
I think that this might be another one of Phil's "in jokes", as the Imperial Seal is very much in the spirit of the Arabic Calligraphers, specifically those who use the Muhaqqaq style. If you compare the above image with the ornately stylized examples of the Basmala I think you can really see the similarities, and inspiration. Not too surprising really as this type of calligraphy was especially popular during the Mameluke period, and the Mamelukes could be found in India: the "Mameluke Dynasty" (1206-1290), and in Egypt: "Mameluke Sultante" (1250-1517). I don't know how much these two institutions inspired Phil during the creation of Tekumel, but I'm sure there are elements that can be found somewhere in Tsolyanu or the Five Empires.

Shemek

Agreed! There were a lot of samples of Mughal calligrapy in Phil's collection, as well as examples of what you mentioned. Prince Mirusiya's 'cartouche' / 'seal' at the top of Princess Vrisa's arrest warrant is a Tsolyani example. Gronan can tell you what it was like, walking into Phil's dining room, and seeing all the little Indo-Persian manuscripts and paintings lined up along the dish rail alongside the weapons collection. Phil had a personal seal like this as well, which he used as a bookplate in his books - I have samples of this.

In keeping with this tradition, I have some of my own, as well as a couple of jasper seals set into massive seal rings in my collection of artifacts. The Missus also found me a wooden boxed set of rubber stamps ("Arabic Words and Patterns", by Jennifer Larson, Chronicle Books) that I use like any good Tekumelyani official - Phil mentioned that woodblock and other materials are used to make these seals, and used by officials with great gusto on official documents.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 03, 2016, 07:15:18 AM
Quote from: Bren;916783
Much better. Thanks.

You're welcome! Thanks for pointing this out, too! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 03, 2016, 07:18:30 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;916793
Uncle,

Oh, I was confusing myself(it has been some time since I read MoG)!!! The Man of Gold and The Weapon Without Answer...The Man of Gold prevented the Goddess from entering Tekumel. Also "killed" her minions(a He'essa?)on Tekumel(unless I'm wrong)!?!? Any hints that The Professor left behind, as to what The Weapon Without Answer does?

Also, I remember reading about a device/artifact that creates a kind of forcefield(was that the WWA)???

Thanks,

H:0)

See above; Phil dropped all sorts of heavy-handed hints about the thing, but refused to be pinned down with specifics. All we know for sure is that the Man of Gold cut off the connection that the thing had to She Who Cannot Be Named's bethorm.  Me, I'd send somebody up there to take a look, but I hear that the Baron discourages casual visitors... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 03, 2016, 07:22:15 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;916829
I love that parallel, between the WwA and the Kaaba. At the very least, one inspired the appearance of the other.
I remember this academic who contacted the Tékumel Yahoo group a little while back. She was interested in finding out how the Professor's faith had influenced or at the very least seeped into the world of Tékumel.
I hope we get to read the result of her investigation one of these days as I find the subject fascinating.

In any event, thanks very much for posting the Kólumel. The design is very clear now.

You're welcome; sorry about the delay.

Phil loved to put this kind of very clever in-jokes into his work. For example: The name of the ruling dynasty in Tsolyanu? Tlakotani, of course. The in-joke, from Phil the linguist:

*Tlatoani (Classical Nahuatl: tlahtoāni [t͡ɬaʔtoˈaːni], "one who speaks, ruler" plural tlahtohqueh [t͡ɬaʔˈtoʔkeʔ]) is the Classical Nahuatl term for the ruler of an altepetl, a pre-Hispanic state. It may be translated into English as "king"." - Wikipedia

Phil would lay these little gags with great glee, and then wait for us to get them patiently - sometimes for years. The more you know, the funnier it gets... :)

EDIT: Forgot to add; yes, I'm looking forward to seeing what she comes up with as well; we had a chance to exchange e-mails on the subject.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 03, 2016, 07:23:47 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;916873
* headdesk *

41 years.  41... bloody ... years.

You can hear him laughing, can't you, as we finally get the joke... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 03, 2016, 02:04:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;916927
You can hear him laughing, can't you, as we finally get the joke... :)

Indeed so. * salutes * Well done, Phil.

That's his sense of humor, folks.  "Dry" does not BEGIN to describe it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 03, 2016, 02:09:01 PM
The guards at a Sakbe road tower are they Imperial, local, locals in the Imperial military or some one else?
How trustworthy are they for road traffic?
Do they get involved in anything that happens off the road?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 03, 2016, 05:15:25 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;916985
Indeed so. * salutes * Well done, Phil.

That's his sense of humor, folks.  "Dry" does not BEGIN to describe it.

Ain't that the truth! Part of the fun in writing "To Serve The Petal Throne" is continuing the in-jokes, as well as adding some of my own in the same style. Phil- wherever he is, and I'd like to think he's arguing dice rolls with Gary and Dave - will get them... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 03, 2016, 05:38:45 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;916986
The guards at a Sakbe road tower are they Imperial, local, locals in the Imperial military or some one else?
How trustworthy are they for road traffic?
Do they get involved in anything that happens off the road?
=


They are nominally Imperial troops, but not part of any legion. They are the same type of troops as the city guards or market police that you find in cities and towns. (Temple guards are the same kind of thing, but report to the temples.) They report to, and are supposed to be paid by, the provincial governor who has a specific officer who's supposed to be in charge of the road guards. The Imperium allows the governor a percentage of his tax revenues for the guards' pay and upkeep, and the governor in turn takes a percentage of the taxes due from the various fief-holders in his province. As a result, the guard are usually underpaid and under-staffed. Generally, the guards are locals to their area; officers might be 'imports', but this is pretty rare - the 'outsider' is either somebody's relative who needs a place and a position, or somebody's problem who needs to be stashed away someplace quiet. Either way they are people of some status in the local community.

Pretty trustworthy; they'll give the traveler advice on food and lodging - since they usually have a relationship with the providers of same - and will look after one's goods; the prudent traveler or merchant will always make sure to 'tip' the guards for their good service, and may expect to get it. The guards have a pretty easy job, and it's in their best interest to make sure that everything on the road goes smoothly; contented travelers are better tippers, after all. Trouble, like the incident in "Man of Gold", usually means that Somebody Important has bribed the guard to look the other way when something 'political' is happening.

Generally, they leave 'off-road' stuff to the local fief-holder and his/her guards, but they will get involved if they see something that is a major issue - Ssu, invaders, stuff like that - happening within sight of the roads. They will not normally leave the road, however.

Bandits and brigands are not welcome; normally, travelers hire a 'local guide' / 'fixer' to prevent such unworthy persons from being a bother; Should such people appear, the guards will deal with them if they are around; if not, the traveler may deal with the miscreants themselves and collect the reward money for the heads. I had to do this on the road from Meku to Fasiltum; I had a half-dozen bandits try to rob our little caravan, and since they were 'unlicensed' brigands - unallied with the local clans - I dealt with them in my usual direct manner and had the bearers collect the heads after the smoke cleared. Turned in the hard at the next large tower to the officer in command, collected the reward money, and handed it out to my retainers and made sure to tip the guards so that they didn't lose any money. Also paid for the damage to the roadway, too; a little patching and resurfacing was in order, although I'm told you can still see the glassy spot on the road when you go by...

I had a very, very quite trip after word went up the road that I was a noble person who looked after his people.

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 03, 2016, 11:29:41 PM
Chirine,

In your opinion, how likely do you think it would be that some settlements of the ancients would have continued to survive up to the time of Llyan's Empire? I know that the epoch spanning from the Time of Darkness to the Lords of the Latter Times is not really well documented, but were there pockets (other than the Undying Wizards) that "kept the torches burning," and tried to maintain as much of the technological lore are they could?
Were there any indications of this from what Phil said or wrote?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 04, 2016, 01:19:39 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;917029
They are nominally Imperial troops, but not part of any legion. They are the same type of troops as the city guards or market police that you find in cities and towns. (Temple guards are the same kind of thing, but report to the temples.) They report to, and are supposed to be paid by, the provincial governor who has a specific officer who's supposed to be in charge of the road guards. The Imperium allows the governor a percentage of his tax revenues for the guards' pay and upkeep, and the governor in turn takes a percentage of the taxes due from the various fief-holders in his province. As a result, the guard are usually underpaid and under-staffed. Generally, the guards are locals to their area; officers might be 'imports', but this is pretty rare - the 'outsider' is either somebody's relative who needs a place and a position, or somebody's problem who needs to be stashed away someplace quiet. Either way they are people of some status in the local community.

Pretty trustworthy; they'll give the traveler advice on food and lodging - since they usually have a relationship with the providers of same - and will look after one's goods; the prudent traveler or merchant will always make sure to 'tip' the guards for their good service, and may expect to get it. The guards have a pretty easy job, and it's in their best interest to make sure that everything on the road goes smoothly; contented travelers are better tippers, after all. Trouble, like the incident in "Man of Gold", usually means that Somebody Important has bribed the guard to look the other way when something 'political' is happening.

Generally, they leave 'off-road' stuff to the local fief-holder and his/her guards, but they will get involved if they see something that is a major issue - Ssu, invaders, stuff like that - happening within sight of the roads. They will not normally leave the road, however.

Bandits and brigands are not welcome; normally, travelers hire a 'local guide' / 'fixer' to prevent such unworthy persons from being a bother; Should such people appear, the guards will deal with them if they are around; if not, the traveler may deal with the miscreants themselves and collect the reward money for the heads. I had to do this on the road from Meku to Fasiltum; I had a half-dozen bandits try to rob our little caravan, and since they were 'unlicensed' brigands - unallied with the local clans - I dealt with them in my usual direct manner and had the bearers collect the heads after the smoke cleared. Turned in the hard at the next large tower to the officer in command, collected the reward money, and handed it out to my retainers and made sure to tip the guards so that they didn't lose any money. Also paid for the damage to the roadway, too; a little patching and resurfacing was in order, although I'm told you can still see the glassy spot on the road when you go by...

I had a very, very quite trip after word went up the road that I was a noble person who looked after his people.

Does this help?


Uncle,

Could you say a bit more about "licensed" and "unlicensed" brigands and how they may relate to local clans...As far as tower guards go, I could imagine all sorts of adventures. A warrior trying to escape his/her past and somehow being thrust back into the thick of things(old West style)!!! As Someone dear loves to say,"Mayhem ensues...!!!".

Thanks,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 04, 2016, 07:34:26 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;917053
Chirine,

In your opinion, how likely do you think it would be that some settlements of the ancients would have continued to survive up to the time of Llyan's Empire? I know that the epoch spanning from the Time of Darkness to the Lords of the Latter Times is not really well documented, but were there pockets (other than the Undying Wizards) that "kept the torches burning," and tried to maintain as much of the technological lore are they could?
Were there any indications of this from what Phil said or wrote?

Shemek


I'd think it would be a pretty good chance; the cataclysm was pretty sudden, so I'd think that the more remote villas, settlements, and garrisons would tend to hold on for as long as they could. It'd be a long, slow decline over time, I would think, based on what Phil said about this.

One of the factors in this was - and still is, for that matter - just how 'survivable' the technology of the Ancients can be. A lot of it is still working today, so it must have stayed working for them then. Phil remarked that the biggest problem was preserving the knowledge of how things worked; I see this myself, every day, where people retire or pass away and their knowledge of how a particular machine works is lost. Even if the information is preserved in some form, how does one access that information? (The 5.5" floppy drive we had to get to read his old floppies is an example of this.) Oral traditions are useful, but you do get a lot of 'drift' over time, and Phil was very aware of this from his own field work - and I thought that it was sad that nobody wanted to deal with his huge archive of audio tapes that he made in South Asia in the early 1950s, which meant that all that information on how things had worked for generations has gotten lost. The flashlight may still work, but nobody may know how to change the focus...

For written documentation about this, I'd suggest the Blue Room, as Phil didn't write much about it in the time we were with him. We did talk a lot about this kind of thing in our 'after-game' conversations, and there might be something on this in the audio-taped interviews I have of him. My advice would be to follow his practice, and go in the direction of having adventures - as he put it, "it's the whole purpose of the thing..."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 04, 2016, 07:55:27 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;917060
Uncle,

Could you say a bit more about "licensed" and "unlicensed" brigands and how they may relate to local clans...As far as tower guards go, I could imagine all sorts of adventures. A warrior trying to escape his/her past and somehow being thrust back into the thick of things(old West style)!!! As Someone dear loves to say,"Mayhem ensues...!!!".

Thanks,

H:0)

The 'licensed bandits' are the local clans, usually. The usual thing is for a clan to hire out their people as 'guides' to travelers, and in return for a small fee they make sure that one does not get robbed or bothered. (I had to explain this concept in detail in the TFT campaign I'm in, playing a 'bandit chieftain'.) It's what I think would be described as a 'protection racket', in 1920s Chicago. The clans also serve as informal police, as they like to either co-opt or exterminate interlopers - 'unlicensed' bandits and brigands - as these are bad for business and cut into the profits. They all have working agreements with the road guards, to whom they pay a percentage in return for getting a segment of the road to work on; in return, the guards refer travelers to them as guides as the locals will know where to stay, where to get supplies, get the cart wheel fixed, and where to buy things. The local clans are also the vendors of all these things, so for them it's vital to get the customers to their wares with their money pouches intact. Lots of robberies are bad publicity, and so are dealt with promptly. The guards will help with this, as the local clans are all taxpayers, and so can call on 'the cops' if there's a problem. The clans all have districts where they are active, and will pass travelers along from one to the other in order to make sure that everybody gets a chance at the money.

Think of a combination of Stuckey's, the mob, Border reivers, Howard Johnson's (shows how old I am!), and the auto club all rolled into one. The Holiday Inn courtesy van, full of armed commandos... :)

'Unlicensed bandits' may very well be down-on-their luck poor people, or equally desperate player-characters. Either way, if they don't have the local connections they will be hunted down and wiped out - if they don't pay their fees, that is...

I would indeed think that one could run all sorts of fun adventures based on the roads; see also Sergio Leone. (Watched "A Fistful of Kaitars", last night.) Or Morse might pull up in his maroon and black palanquin, for that matter... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 04, 2016, 09:25:25 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;917029
...Generally, the guards are locals to their area; officers might be 'imports', but this is pretty rare - the 'outsider' is either somebody's relative who needs a place and a position, or somebody's problem who needs to be stashed away someplace quiet. Either way they are people of some status in the local community.

Pretty trustworthy; they'll give the traveler advice on food and lodging - since they usually have a relationship with the providers of same - and will look after one's goods; the prudent traveler or merchant will always make sure to 'tip' the guards for their good service, and may expect to get it. The guards have a pretty easy job, and it's in their best interest to make sure that everything on the road goes smoothly; contented travelers are better tippers, after all. Trouble, like the incident in "Man of Gold", usually means that Somebody Important has bribed the guard to look the other way when something 'political' is happening.

Generally, they leave 'off-road' stuff to the local fief-holder and his/her guards, but they will get involved if they see something that is a major issue - Ssu, invaders, stuff like that - happening within sight of the roads. They will not normally leave the road, however.


So, it would not be unthinkable for them to be in cahoots with a local organization.
Like say the locals needed some warm bodies to feed a Saturday Night Special.
The guards would not "remember" that the group had come that way.
Maybe even prefer it was strangers from the road and not locals.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 04, 2016, 12:04:35 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;917078
I'd think it would be a pretty good chance; the cataclysm was pretty sudden, so I'd think that the more remote villas, settlements, and garrisons would tend to hold on for as long as they could. It'd be a long, slow decline over time, I would think, based on what Phil said about this.

One of the factors in this was - and still is, for that matter - just how 'survivable' the technology of the Ancients can be. A lot of it is still working today, so it must have stayed working for them then. Phil remarked that the biggest problem was preserving the knowledge of how things worked; I see this myself, every day, where people retire or pass away and their knowledge of how a particular machine works is lost. Even if the information is preserved in some form, how does one access that information? (The 5.5" floppy drive we had to get to read his old floppies is an example of this.) Oral traditions are useful, but you do get a lot of 'drift' over time, and Phil was very aware of this from his own field work - and I thought that it was sad that nobody wanted to deal with his huge archive of audio tapes that he made in South Asia in the early 1950s, which meant that all that information on how things had worked for generations has gotten lost. The flashlight may still work, but nobody may know how to change the focus...

For written documentation about this, I'd suggest the Blue Room, as Phil didn't write much about it in the time we were with him. We did talk a lot about this kind of thing in our 'after-game' conversations, and there might be something on this in the audio-taped interviews I have of him. My advice would be to follow his practice, and go in the direction of having adventures - as he put it, "it's the whole purpose of the thing..."


Thank you for the info! This is exactly what I suspected, and I'll continue along this path for my current campaign. The Blue Room has some stuff. Although Phil's posts regarding the LotLT are mostly focused on Ru'un, Yeleth, Qon, etc there are some very useful kernels that I've managed to find and incorporate into my game narrative. As an aside, I found this while on the Blue Room, and thought it quite interesting. What a great adventure one could have by using elements of this story, in another location (or time) on Tekumel.

"I played in Craig Smith's (the artist from Swords and Glory as well
as other publications) semi-official offshoot of the Professor's
campaign in the 70's. On one adventure at sea, we ran into an island
that had once been an R&R facility for the military during the Latter
Times (or some such ancient period). There was a class of Ru'un
there that was much more intelligent than the run-of-the-mill
tomb guardian type (yes, I know they really aren't run-of-the-mill).
These had some kind of energy blaster instead of the usual bolt
caster, and seemed better armored as well (drawing in Tekumel Journal
#1, p. 17). They thought we were soldiers on R&R and treated us
accordingly. They could interact, answer questions, etc. They knew
Tsolyani, which was remarkable in its own sense. The problem was
that we didn't have any orders that said we could leave, so they
attempted to prevent our departure in a rather non-violent manner, at
least at first (they didn't want us to go AWOL). We did manage to
escape (with three energy pistols) and only losing one party member.
(We later lost the energy pistols to the Vru'uneb in Tsamra, but
that's another story.) An Imperial Dispatch in The Imperial Military
Journal (Vol. II, #5, Winter 2360 - mislabelled #4) appeared
describing these events."

Phil's response to the initial post

"Craig Smith took some of his campaign
ideas directly from mine, and the "lost islands: in the southern seas
was one of them. The Ru'un there are much more sophisticated than
the run-of-the-mill storeroom guard or or service robot. The problem
is that the R-n-R base is absolutely unalterable and fixed by any
methods the Tsolyani have today (think of Amazonian jungle tribesmen
in an American underground missile base for a comparison). The R-n-R
Ru'un are programmed to serve, entertain, and help soldiers and space
pilots relax. They cannot provide information (that a Tsolyani could
understoand), and they do NOT offer technology, weapons, or the like.
As for the language, Craig neglected to mention to Brett and his
party that the Ru'uns' lips do not move in sync with the Tsolyani
words they seem to be uttering. They use a form of "technological
telepathy." The base dates not from the Latter Times (it was known
but not used -- after all nobody who got there could get off without
identification and authorisation, and few of the ancient military ID
cards were available -- and they had the wrong pictures, dates,
eye-prints, etc. The Lords of the Latter Times at first tried to
move a couple of the sophisticated pleasure robots to their own
installations, but this kind of meddling is resisted with force by
the island "brain centre," and these attempts failed or led to disaster.

By the bye, do most of you know about the "little golden translation
balls?" These are highly treasured by players in my games. They are
creations of the early (and more technological Latter Times) and are
found here and there in ancient installations. They are about the
size of a small marble and are made of golden metal. Put one inside
your cheek, and it connects with your brain waves to translate
audible foreign speech into your own tongue -- and your words into
something understandable by your hearers. They won't work on Ru'un,
Yeleth, or the nonhuman languages, but they are very useful for most
modern human languages. You can thus "speak" to a person whose
language you don't know at all. They work by some sort of gimmicky
computer chip circuitry, I suppose. They do short out or go dead --
rarely harming the user -- but they are extremely useful for long
distance travellers. They are bulky in one's cheek, however, and I
have known persons to swallow one accidently -- and then have to wait
for its eventual emergence..."


Did you ever get a chance to travel to these islands, or to a similar R&R facility. while adventuring?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 04, 2016, 01:12:15 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;917090
So, it would not be unthinkable for them to be in cahoots with a local organization.
Like say the locals needed some warm bodies to feed a Saturday Night Special.
The guards would not "remember" that the group had come that way.
Maybe even prefer it was strangers from the road and not locals.
=


Oh, yes, I think this to be quite possible! Tekumel is full of little pockets of odd things, and locals feeding the unwary to Something would not be unknown - remember Phil's mantra about having adventures.

Eventually, somebody would get suspicious about the non-arrivals, and send out a party of player-characters to investigate. Mayhem ensues.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 04, 2016, 01:22:20 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;917100
Thank you for the info! This is exactly what I suspected, and I'll continue along this path for my current campaign. The Blue Room has some stuff. Although Phil's posts regarding the LotLT are mostly focused on Ru'un, Yeleth, Qon, etc there are some very useful kernels that I've managed to find and incorporate into my game narrative. As an aside, I found this while on the Blue Room, and thought it quite interesting. What a great adventure one could have by using elements of this story, in another location (or time) on Tekumel.

[snipped for space]

Did you ever get a chance to travel to these islands, or to a similar R&R facility. while adventuring?

Shemek

Yes. We eventually worked out that this base is in the south polar area, and went there several times with varying degrees of success. You get there by tubeway car, and this was the first time we saw the large stations that will dock the large pill-shaped cars. The 'greeters' at the station are Yeleth, both 'male' and 'female', and the powerful Ru'un are the Military Police who keep things on the base down to a dull roar.

The place is one of the ten to twelve 'tourist traps' on the tubeway system, and sooner or later any users of the system wind up there. (My players finally worked how to get in and out about a decade ago.) It's a lot of fun - I caused a panic amongst the PCs with the medical facility, as they thought that one of the PCs was about to be drowned in a tube full of liquid, and it's just chock full of useful 1940s 'hard SF' tropes all just waiting to befuddle the players. Star Wars fans seem to get particularly confused, for some reason, as nothing is like what they expect the future to be like.

Trylon and Perisphere, anyone? :)

The little translator marbles are a plot device of Phil's, just like Nexus points and tubeway cars, to speed up the action. See also Phil's excellent little article on "The Language Problem", from many, many years ago.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 04, 2016, 06:05:10 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;917080
The 'licensed bandits' are the local clans, usually. The usual thing is for a clan to hire out their people as 'guides' to travelers, and in return for a small fee they make sure that one does not get robbed or bothered. (I had to explain this concept in detail in the TFT campaign I'm in, playing a 'bandit chieftain'.) It's what I think would be described as a 'protection racket', in 1920s Chicago. The clans also serve as informal police, as they like to either co-opt or exterminate interlopers - 'unlicensed' bandits and brigands - as these are bad for business and cut into the profits.

This model would also be thoroughly familiar to Merovingian-era Franks (500 - 750 AD in round numbers) when the lord was known as "magnus" - "big man" and referred to his retainers as "mis puerii" - "my boys".  Bernie Bachrach read us a small chunk translated this way; some monk complaining "the Big Man and his boys came into town today" and the monk didn't approve of their behavior.  It casts a whole different light on the age of pre-feudalism.

I tried to explain to the same folks about John Hawkwood and how if an armed force controlled a castle in unclaimed land you now had a new king/duke/baron/whatever, but I didn't do as good a job.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 04, 2016, 08:56:41 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;917133
This model would also be thoroughly familiar to Merovingian-era Franks (500 - 750 AD in round numbers) when the lord was known as "magnus" - "big man" and referred to his retainers as "mis puerii" - "my boys".  Bernie Bachrach read us a small chunk translated this way; some monk complaining "the Big Man and his boys came into town today" and the monk didn't approve of their behavior.  It casts a whole different light on the age of pre-feudalism.

I tried to explain to the same folks about John Hawkwood and how if an armed force controlled a castle in unclaimed land you now had a new king/duke/baron/whatever, but I didn't do as good a job.

Well, yes, this. I had gotten the idea that this kind of thing was what the 'domain game' was all about, way back when, which is why in Phil's campaign he was so big on players getting the little two-hex fiefs in his games. (Not that it worked out very well; the problem was keeping the players on the fiefs and not gallivanting off on adventures.)

Great minds, same gutters. I used Sir John and his merry men quite a bit, that day, and it did seem to help once I went through all the accountants, clerks, and lawyers that the fearsome White Company has on the payroll. It's a business, purveying the threat of mayhem in return for social order.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 04, 2016, 09:03:44 PM
For Big Andy...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]339[/ATTACH]
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 05, 2016, 10:20:09 PM
Chirine,

Was Captain Harchar a Tsolyani, or a barbarian in a boat who landed in Jakalla from some unknown land?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 05, 2016, 10:20:36 PM
Uncle,

What type of musical instrument is a miyalun? I found some references to it in a few places. No description. Nothing in the sourcebook. The index I have was no help...

Thank you,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on September 06, 2016, 07:33:49 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;916926
You're welcome; sorry about the delay.

Phil loved to put this kind of very clever in-jokes into his work. For example: The name of the ruling dynasty in Tsolyanu? Tlakotani, of course. The in-joke, from Phil the linguist:

*Tlatoani (Classical Nahuatl: tlahtoāni [t͡ɬaʔtoˈaːni], "one who speaks, ruler" plural tlahtohqueh [t͡ɬaʔˈtoʔkeʔ]) is the Classical Nahuatl term for the ruler of an altepetl, a pre-Hispanic state. It may be translated into English as "king"." - Wikipedia

Phil would lay these little gags with great glee, and then wait for us to get them patiently - sometimes for years. The more you know, the funnier it gets... :)

EDIT: Forgot to add; yes, I'm looking forward to seeing what she comes up with as well; we had a chance to exchange e-mails on the subject.


I wonder if the Tlakotani/ Tlatoani thing was ever a "joke" really. I imagine it as being like "Sakbe" and "Kheshchal". Just a teenaged Phil Barker drawing on Mesoamerica as inspiration for his own fantasy world
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on September 06, 2016, 07:52:55 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;917150
For Big Andy...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]339[/ATTACH]


Sweet!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 06, 2016, 12:56:13 PM
Chirine,

One thing I was wondering about is the local fauna of Tekumel. We have listings of the exotic species and such, but what about more mundane items like frogs, rats, mice, snakes, scorpions, mosquitoes, dragon flies, and other Terran bugs? Did these things make it to Tekumel with the Human settlers, or are there other non-Terran equivalents that Phil used?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 06, 2016, 01:13:04 PM
I was Tekumel.com recently and I came across this editorial from The Eye of All-Seeing Wonder (e-mag), Issue 6, Winter 1996. It's quite a long piece but I would like to put it out here and hopefully generate some discussion. Twenty years have passed since he (Steve Foster) wrote this. Do you think that his argument is valid?

On the Death of Tékumel

Your editor, in his final Issue, makes a plea to save Tékumel

"It’s not often that you get the opportunity to do things over; to make good the mistakes you’ve made in the past. I often think that’s because we often don’t realise that the mistake has been made, or we are not willing to admit to it because of the investment we’ve already made in the mistake itself. Maybe it needs someone to come along and say, "Hey, I think you’re on the wrong track!" I intend to do that for Tékumel, whether my opinion is welcome or not. It’s the prerogative of an editor writing his last Issue.

I’ve been playing on Tékumel for 20 years now since, on a dull June afternoon, I ventured into Nyelmu’s garden with a group of fellow adventurers who were hell bent on internecine strife. We spent nearly 6 hours battling each other at a T-junction. After that I became Ghulfang, who wielded the black scimitar Thanaphon; Qolyemu, who became something other human; Purudesh; Ahanbasrim; Kanmi’yel, who became two separate Nlüss; Khepfrish, the archer who wounded Mirusiya during the civil war; Yaksibi the lawyer; Ssúdussanu, the hired thug; Zaklengu, the gigantic freak; Shorun and many others. All-in-all it’s been a fun 20 years, but the good times look like they’re coming to an end.

They’re coming to an end because Tékumel is dying. Yes, there is a core of devoted fans amongst whom I number myself, but the number isn’t growing too fast. Most of the players I know are over 30 and many are very close to the big 4-0. New players appear now and again, but I don’t hear too many stories about the good Professor’s yacht or his private Lear jet, so I guess they’re not appearing in vast numbers. I don’t think there are enough new players coming along even to maintain a critical mass and without that the end of Tékumel is only a matter of time.

The problem, you see, is the fixation that the RPG industry has on rules. You can’t sell a new game without rules. You can’t sell an old game without changing the rules trivially so that you can call then "advanced" or "new" or "realistic". Tékumel has suffered from this more than any game world. The original EPT rules weren’t the greatest, but they worked well enough for the time. Swords and Glory were a vast improvement, but you still needed to interpret them to make scenarios work and to get around little inconsistencies. GURPS Tékumel was a good idea, but you still needed to keep your wits about you to stop rules Issues from becoming scenario Issues. Gardásiyal, leaving aside my well known opinion of the production quality, was OK but no improvement over S&G. Now, if you stand back, you can see the problem: Too much effort wasted on the rules and not enough on the world.

It’s an interesting point that comes clear with hindsight. Even while all these different game systems were being published, some player groups were still producing their own. Yet no-one has rewritten the source book. They all want to keep the setting faithful to "real" Tékumel. After all, it’s the painstaking detail, the exotic world, the coherence and vision that attract most people to Tékumel. Being Tsolyáni is a real role-player’s challenge, especially for those of us brought up in an egalitarian Western society. There’s a mythology and a history that actually make sense, not just some bastardised, third-class Middle Earth. There’s a language primer that got even me interested in linguistics. There are even two half-way decent novels.

So, do I think saying "kill the rules, keep the world" will bring Tékumel role-playing back to where it should be? No. I still think it should be done, though. I think Gardásiyal, Swords and Glory, Adventures on Tékumel, whatever else. should be let quietly slip away, but unfortunately that’s only half the solution. There’s still the problem of getting that critical mass of new players. That’s not easy to do and I think it can only be done with a sacrifice. It’s a sacrifice that I don’t think will be popular in some quarters and I have the most selfish reason of all for proposing it. In 20 years time, I still want to be able to sell my little boat in Jakálla harbour and head off for a life of adventure.

I guess the idea that inspired me was the Browser Wars. If you’re not into computers that mightn’t mean anything to you, so I’ll explain it. Two multi-billion dollar corporations, Microsoft and Netscape, are fighting for market share by giving stuff away for free. They’re happy because they know you’ll be so impressed with the product that you’ll want to actually pay for some of their other stuff. You’re happy because you got some first-rate software for free (even if it is only yet another "beta"). I think the same thing has to happen to Tékumel. Put part (not all) of it into the public domain or license it for free. Put the Source Book onto the Internet. Encourage new players to read it and use it. It sounds weird, but maybe then there’ll be ten thousand or a hundred thousand people who prefer Tékumel to any other gaming world, who may actually pay for follow-up material from the Professor himself.

Maybe you’re sceptical. Maybe you think this is doing a disservice to Phil. Maybe you think it’s none of my business. Maybe you think I have some ulterior motive. All I can do is point out the facts. If the strategy hasn’t worked for the last 20 years it’s not going to suddenly start working now. Without change, Tékumel is dead."


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron Opal on September 06, 2016, 03:34:40 PM
I think a 20-24 page primer would do nicely. Follow that up with the hard data from S&G and Mitlaniyal for the geography, cultures, and the supernatural. You could probably make 5-6 good sourcebooks out of that data alone. For critters, adapting the old bestiary and simply referencing check points (strong as orc, ogre, owlbear, &c.) would be sufficient.

With a properly planned kickstarter, you could do well enough to make your money back, and perhaps a profit as well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on September 06, 2016, 04:43:27 PM
well, you can't argue with Stephen Foster's prognosis. Twenty years on, Tekumel may not be dead, but it is about as "alive" as he imagined it would be.

His diagnosis? I think he captured some of the problems, obviously there were and are more.

Then the prescription. I don 't know that giving away content will raise Tekumel from the grave, but I do believe it is part of a healthy lifestyle, so I am very sympathetic to his suggestion!

I do think Tekumel needs a big, meaningful free giveaway to build market share. Where I disagree is that the big free giveaway should be the Sourcebook. I just don't think it is a big hook. The Sourcebook is the net that lands you when you are already hooked, but I don't think it is the thing that gets you to bite in the first place.

I'm not sure a primer is either. People have been debating (and circulating drafts of) the "perfect Tekumel primer" for 20 years or more. Presumably as a way to give away free content without giving away too much. And I think a brief factsheet is a great thing to have, especially for conventions, but I don't think it is any way to build wide appeal for a product that doesnt have that yet.

No, the giveaway has to be bigger than that. It has to be a complete, but very basic game with all the fluff of original EPT, and enough allusions to the vast detail to make people feel they got something real for free, but make them hungry for more. Tekumel Basic. My opinion.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 06, 2016, 05:23:53 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;917348
Chirine,

Was Captain Harchar a Tsolyani, or a barbarian in a boat who landed in Jakalla from some unknown land?

Shemek.


He's a Tsolyani, even though the Imperium hates the idea, and a member of the Blazoned Sail clan of Jakalla, which would really prefer that you not mention that to people. He's the Sable Hmelu of the clan, and his officers are just as disowned by their clans as he is. I forget his lineage; I'd have to look it up, but I think it's hi Virshenya. The night Dave rolled up this lot was One Of Those Evenings... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 06, 2016, 05:24:33 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;917348
Chirine,

Was Captain Harchar a Tsolyani, or a barbarian in a boat who landed in Jakalla from some unknown land?

Shemek.

He's a Tsolyani, even though the Imperium hates the idea, and a member of the Blazoned Sail clan of Jakalla, which would really prefer that you not mention that to people. He's the Sable Hmelu of the clan, and his officers are just as disowned by their clans as he is. I forget his lineage; I'd have to look it up, but I think it's hi Virshenya. The night Dave rolled up this lot was One Of Those Evenings... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 06, 2016, 05:26:24 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;917349
Uncle,

What type of musical instrument is a miyalun? I found some references to it in a few places. No description. Nothing in the sourcebook. The index I have was no help...

Thank you,

H:0)

Say the word aloud, and you'll hear Phil laughing as you get the joke. Miyalun, violin... :)

This one came after we heard a koto player doing Mozart...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 06, 2016, 05:29:08 PM
Well my silly opinion for what it is worth is to give away stand alone adventures with pre-made characters.
If they are good enough, people will want more and will want to create their own characters.
People are always looking for fun adventures, after a few they will be vested.

You can then sell what is needed for people to make their own.  
How you divide up what to sell and for how much I leave to professionals.

I don't doubt being compatible with D20 would help though I personally would prefer Savage Worlds.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 06, 2016, 05:30:36 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;917387
I wonder if the Tlakotani/ Tlatoani thing was ever a "joke" really. I imagine it as being like "Sakbe" and "Kheshchal". Just a teenaged Phil Barker drawing on Mesoamerica as inspiration for his own fantasy world

Well, that was a joke in terms of Phil's sense of humor. He loved linguistic in-jokes like this; to us midwest illiterates, they weren't 'jokes' in the sense that we knew the word. Phil was a little older when he learned Nahuatl; he got his first degree in Anthropology, and then switched to Languages for his doctorate.

As Gronan has remarked, Phil's sense of humor was very different from ours.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 06, 2016, 05:32:07 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;917388
Sweet!

We aim to please. Sanding the cube tonight, and then slapping on the second coat of filler after I get the dust off... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 06, 2016, 05:38:19 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;917453
Chirine,

One thing I was wondering about is the local fauna of Tekumel. We have listings of the exotic species and such, but what about more mundane items like frogs, rats, mice, snakes, scorpions, mosquitoes, dragon flies, and other Terran bugs? Did these things make it to Tekumel with the Human settlers, or are there other non-Terran equivalents that Phil used?

Shemek

Yes, all of the above, plus all their off-world equivalents. We killed, trapped, swatted, and tried to exterminate as much of this sort of thing as possible, but it's an impossible task. These kinds of creatures was a sort of 'background radiation' that went on when there wasn't a Dire Peril to have to deal with. Have a look through 1930s and 1940s scientifiction, and you'll see what we had to deal with. Without bug repellent, either.

Phil loved this kind of thing, drawing on his time in South Asia, and would wax poetic describing the creepy-crawlies that infested the place. He'd been there, done that, and was more then happy to draw on it for our 'benefit'. It's one of the reasons why he was very strictly forbidden to give blood by the Red Cross - a pint of his blood would have infected a herd of elephants.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 06, 2016, 05:56:20 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;917458
I was Tekumel.com recently and I came across this editorial from The Eye of All-Seeing Wonder (e-mag), Issue 6, Winter 1996. It's quite a long piece but I would like to put it out here and hopefully generate some discussion. Twenty years have passed since he (Steve Foster) wrote this. Do you think that his argument is valid?
 
Shemek

Um. Well, I'd like to have the chance to think about this for a bit, as this article came at a time when things were going very, very badly in Tekumel fandom; the context was that a guy had announced that he was going to run a Tekumel convention here in the Twin Cities, and then had it killed by "Barker's Own" - they told me that they had killed the convention because, and I quote, "we were afraid that you'd show up with all your cool miniatures and costumes and friends, and steal the spotlight from us..." We lost an immense amount of momentum then, like we did after Phil passed away, and I don't think Tekumel ever recovered from not having an event of some sort of to promote the world-setting. This also came after the publication of "Gardasiyal", which didn't go over all that well, and this time also saw the end of the 'Eye' 'zine and the loss of a lot of UK Tekumel fans. It was, for me personally, pretty agonizing to watch as all the work we'd done in the 1970s and 1980s was flushed down the drain.

I think Mr. Foster made some very good points. We asked Phil repeatedly for his help in doing an introductory level adventure or series of adventures for people to use in playing and enjoying Tekumel. We tried very hard to let people know that they could use any set of rules to play - Tekumel is a world-setting, more then anything else. I made many of these same points to the Tekumel Foundation at their first strategic planning meeting, back in 2012 - Phil left us a huge amount of information about his world, but it needs to be taken out of the 1980s game industry setting and recast for the current and future game hobby. (I got pretty much blown off.)

Can Tekumel be 'revived'? Yes, I think so, but it'll be a lot of work and effort to make happen.

And with that, I'll beg all of you for your patience and kind indulgence while I try to frame a reply that is polite and doesn't degenerate into a rant. Thanks.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 06, 2016, 09:38:17 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;917526
Say the word aloud, and you'll hear Phil laughing as you get the joke. Miyalun, violin... :)

This one came after we heard a koto player doing Mozart...


After you said it. It is obvious!!! The Professor laughs again...!!! Haha!!! In jokes everywhere...

Thanks,

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 07, 2016, 06:38:25 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;917578
After you said it. It is obvious!!! The Professor laughs again...!!! Haha!!! In jokes everywhere...

Thanks,

H;0)

Yep. Phil was very literate, and his sense of humor reflected this. Very dry, as Gronan said. :)
Title: Response to Editorial
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 07, 2016, 06:50:32 AM
I am working on this; I'm trying very hard to be a dispassionate observer, but I will freely admit that it's pretty hard. I've now had a half-dozen groups and organizations come through the house over the past five years, all with sure-fire plans to revive Tekumel and make it the new D&D. All of these plans seem to require my signing on with that particular group with an exclusive contract which would lock up all of my efforts as their property - including any gaming that I might want to do, even in my own home. I was told by one group of vapor merchants that I was allowed to game in my basement, but that anything I created belonged to them and that I had to pay them a licensing fee for each game. ('Public' games were Right Out, and any such were only to be done at their behest.)

The common threads in all of these 'businesses' is that they require my approval (for some reason I can't fathom), sole and exclusive ownership of any and all information in my brain, sole and exclusive ownership of my collections and archives, and for me to fund their schemes in some way or another. The other common thread is an almost complete lack of understanding of their proposed markets, their proposed fans, and in several cases of Tekumel itself.

So, yes, I do have a response, based on the four decades I've been at this. More to come.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Opaopajr on September 07, 2016, 08:06:31 AM
Sounds like death by exclusivity factionalism. Not much you can do about that except live your life and enjoy doing what you love. Power games over reduced stakes, all the more bitter for how small the prize. It is best to walk away from that sort of cliquishness.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on September 07, 2016, 08:11:30 AM
I recall that you have a copy of the npc note cards the Professor used. Where did everyone end up when the Professor stopped playing? Not everyone everyone (that would be too many everyones) but some of the more notable folks, like some of the characters from the novels, etc. Was there any indication of what the Next Big Thing that Tekumel was going to face?

Also, when Dave passed, did Captain Harchar?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 07, 2016, 02:07:27 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;917662
The common threads in all of these 'businesses' is that they require my approval (for some reason I can't fathom), sole and exclusive ownership of any and all information in my brain, sole and exclusive ownership of my collections and archives, and for me to fund their schemes in some way or another.
At first glance that sounds wonderful.

...for them.




And their model makes a lot of business sense since we all know how the proprietary source code of Betamax and Apple allowed them to gain and maintain the dominant market share for video cassette recorders and personal computers.



...or maybe not "dominant market share" but that other thing.
Title: Outreach and Rebuilding
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 07, 2016, 06:37:49 PM
Um. well then. I'm going to try to respond to the editorial as best I can; what follows are excerpts from a ten page document that I did some years ago in response to a request for a 'way forward' for Tekumel.  It's what I've been telling all of the people who have been beating a pathway to my doorstep for the last decade, and especially in the last five years.

Supposedly, I am "The Greatest Living Authority On Tekumel" and "The Only Person Who Was Ever Successful At It"' personally. I'm not at all sure about either, and i'd suggest asking Gronan to comment - he was there, and in the Very Hot Seat, for much of the period when our current situation started to develop.

Right.

Over the past thirty-five years, there has been little or no attempt by the 'mainstream' of Tekumel gamers to do much in the way of 'outreach' to the larger game and fannish community. As has been noted many, many times by the hobby and the industry, 'mainstream' Tekumel fandom is insular, isolated, and inward-looking. In order for Tekumel to survive, this has to be reversed. It must be noted that this viewpoint was fought tooth and nail by the players in the original Thursday Night gaming group of Prof. Barker; these people produced large number of fanzines, outreach materials, and 'public relations' materials such as the costumes that won many prizes in costume competitions at conventions for over two decades. (In my own personal experience, over the past thirty-five years, this latter activity has drawn more new people to the Tekumel world setting then the small-scale activities of the 'mainstream' gamers.) This should be added to with a very strong Internet presence, such as through blogs, websites, and participation in forum threads.

The former model in the game hobby / industry is changing at a very fast pace due to the rise of Internet publishing. The old publishing model of author-publisher-printer-distributor-wholesaler-retailer-consumer is falling apart, with companies at all levels in the old chain / model going out of business every day. The new model has become author-internet web site-consumer, as the start-up and overhead costs for the latter model are almost non-existent. In addition, where the old model reached relatively few consumers in a relatively small hobby industry, the new model has both a global reach and a global market. It is now far less cost effective to attend large trade shows, such as Gen Con, where the cost per consumer is rapidly approaching $1,000 per capita per event. (Based on industry sources; I asked companies I know.) It is time to 'disassemble' the rich archive of materials we have for Tekumel, and recast them in ways and in products that can be used by the modern gamer and fan.

What is being referred to informally as the 'Legacy Line" of Tekumel publications and products should be renamed the "Heritage Line" to avoid confusion, and to distinguish these publications and products from other works by Prof. M. A. R. Barker such as his series of novels, which are not and have never been considered part of the gaming and game-related series of publications and products. (The novels will be referred to briefly, as they remain a cornerstone of future publishing and marketing.) Prior publishing efforts have been fatally crippled by lack of direction, lack of planning, and lack of funding; most products produced by these efforts are neither up to current industry standards in presentation or ease of use by the end consumers. In short, while we feel that it would be useful for a segment of the game market to have these products available through electronic publishing and Internet distribution, they are not viable in today's game hobby or in today's game industry.

What would seem to be required for the continued survival of Tekumel in the game hobby and industry are introductory adventures that will bring the world-setting and the potential for adventures in it to the gaming public. This will need to be accompanied by a concerted and determined effort to restart the 'meta-campaign' that Prof. Barker ran; this has been demonstrated to be much more feasible in this Internet Age - doing a 'Living Tekumel' campaign, as was done as a 'play-by-mail' campaign in the late 1980s, would be an effective 'marketing tool' and get players and fans involved in the continued creation and demonstration of both old and new content. This continued involvement is vital, and will require considerable amounts of time and energy to be invested in the work.

Promoting Tekumel is, as has been noted by a number of people, a 'full-time job' - and it still is.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 07, 2016, 06:41:15 PM
Quote from: Baron Opal;917494
I think a 20-24 page primer would do nicely. Follow that up with the hard data from S&G and Mitlaniyal for the geography, cultures, and the supernatural. You could probably make 5-6 good sourcebooks out of that data alone. For critters, adapting the old bestiary and simply referencing check points (strong as orc, ogre, owlbear, &c.) would be sufficient.

With a properly planned kickstarter, you could do well enough to make your money back, and perhaps a profit as well.


Agreed; this is largely what I proposed, some years back; regional and urban sourcebooks, to make the information more accessible, was one of my suggestions.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 07, 2016, 06:42:56 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;917512
well, you can't argue with Stephen Foster's prognosis. Twenty years on, Tekumel may not be dead, but it is about as "alive" as he imagined it would be.

His diagnosis? I think he captured some of the problems, obviously there were and are more.

Then the prescription. I don 't know that giving away content will raise Tekumel from the grave, but I do believe it is part of a healthy lifestyle, so I am very sympathetic to his suggestion!

I do think Tekumel needs a big, meaningful free giveaway to build market share. Where I disagree is that the big free giveaway should be the Sourcebook. I just don't think it is a big hook. The Sourcebook is the net that lands you when you are already hooked, but I don't think it is the thing that gets you to bite in the first place.

I'm not sure a primer is either. People have been debating (and circulating drafts of) the "perfect Tekumel primer" for 20 years or more. Presumably as a way to give away free content without giving away too much. And I think a brief factsheet is a great thing to have, especially for conventions, but I don't think it is any way to build wide appeal for a product that doesnt have that yet.

No, the giveaway has to be bigger than that. It has to be a complete, but very basic game with all the fluff of original EPT, and enough allusions to the vast detail to make people feel they got something real for free, but make them hungry for more. Tekumel Basic. My opinion.


And a very good opinion it is, too. Input like yours is what's really needed and should be sought out and heeded.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 07, 2016, 06:47:07 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;917527
Well my silly opinion for what it is worth is to give away stand alone adventures with pre-made characters.
If they are good enough, people will want more and will want to create their own characters.
People are always looking for fun adventures, after a few they will be vested.

You can then sell what is needed for people to make their own.  
How you divide up what to sell and for how much I leave to professionals.

I don't doubt being compatible with D20 would help though I personally would prefer Savage Worlds.
=


Yep. Get 'em playing, and it gets them hooked I've found.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 07, 2016, 06:50:16 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr;917681
Sounds like death by exclusivity factionalism. Not much you can do about that except live your life and enjoy doing what you love. Power games over reduced stakes, all the more bitter for how small the prize. It is best to walk away from that sort of cliquishness.


Yes, it is, which is why when the crap hit the fan over Luke Gygax wanting a Tekumel room at Gary Con this past spring, I finally gave up and walked away. I happen to like Luke and his family, and they run a great convention; no need to put them through the wringer and controversy.

And yet another opportunity to make Tekumel 'more accessible' was lost, through no fault of Luke or Gary Con.

Sigh.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 07, 2016, 06:56:05 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;917685
I recall that you have a copy of the npc note cards the Professor used. Where did everyone end up when the Professor stopped playing? Not everyone everyone (that would be too many everyones) but some of the more notable folks, like some of the characters from the novels, etc. Was there any indication of what the Next Big Thing that Tekumel was going to face?

Also, when Dave passed, did Captain Harchar?


There are over 1,800 answers to that question; basically, the meta-game froze in place and simply stopped where where everybody was at the end of the late civil wars. A short list would take a lot of space, but it is doable with the database.

No, not really. Phil left some notes and hints in "Beyond The Dark Pool of Memory" but it's hard to determine a direction from the dozen plus chapters we found.

No; Harchar is a little older, a little slower, and a little more grey, but he's still up to his usual 'business ventures'. He now has several ships, and his mates have been promoted to command them. He has a daughter as well, and she commands her own ship - it's become a family firm, as they say.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 07, 2016, 06:57:32 PM
Quote from: Bren;917775
At first glance that sounds wonderful.

...for them.


And their model makes a lot of business sense since we all know how the proprietary source code of Betamax and Apple allowed them to gain and maintain the dominant market share for video cassette recorders and personal computers.



...or maybe not "dominant market share" but that other thing.

And all true, too! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on September 07, 2016, 08:39:09 PM
one thing that occurs to me when you talk about disassembling and recasting Tekumel is the difference between the Professors text, and the packaging it comes in. For me, at least, the Professors texts are quite timeless. Yes, the Professors writing can have a dry, academic quality, but there is also an authority and a real-world quality there that I have rarely seen. It may not quite immerse you in a "real, tangible" world, but it is almost as though you are listening to your grandfather describe a "real, tangible" world. I find it quite magical and rather timeless.

In contrast, art, production design and game mechanics all get dated distressingly quickly. That is what the Professors text is wrapped up in, and however timeless the text, the packaging no longer has much currency
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 07, 2016, 08:55:09 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;917832
one thing that occurs to me when you talk about disassembling and recasting Tekumel is the difference between the Professors text, and the packaging it comes in. For me, at least, the Professors texts are quite timeless. Yes, the Professors writing can have a dry, academic quality, but there is also an authority and a real-world quality there that I have rarely seen. It may not quite immerse you in a "real, tangible" world, but it is almost as though you are listening to your grandfather describe a "real, tangible" world. I find it quite magical and rather timeless.

In contrast, art, production design and game mechanics all get dated distressingly quickly. That is what the Professors text is wrapped up in, and however timeless the text, the packaging no longer has much currency


I very, very strongly agree with you on this! One of the very first things I said to the Foundation was "Take my dead hands off the marketing controls" as I thought that what we did at AGI in the late 1970s and early 1980s was fine - for the time - but what was needed was to let Phil's voice be heard. My feeling is that taking Phil's texts and setting them out - preferably on-line - so that people can look at them and make their own decisions will be a better course then taking the position that all of his work must be 'properly interpreted' by a 'proper interpreter' in order for it to be heard. Give people the raw data, I've found over the years, and they'll be back for more...

The 'properly interpreted' attitude kind of assumes that the audience is stupid, and unable to read or think for themselves. Over the years, I have found that people who are interested in Tekumel are the exact opposite; one of the main reasons why I've stuck it out so long is the chance to talk about the place with people like you and the other folks on this thread.

The Sourcebook, for example, is fine as a stand-alone book; it has nothing that specifically ties it to S&G except for the title. Same thing with Deeds or Ebon Bindings. It's the 'tied' stuff, originally intended for use with a game that never took off, that I think needs to be left on the 'back list' and offered as PDFs or print-on-demand and not made the flagships of the line.

Let Phil speak. He did create the place, after all...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 07, 2016, 10:03:58 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;917834
I very, very strongly agree with you on this! One of the very first things I said to the Foundation was "Take my dead hands off the marketing controls" as I thought that what we did at AGI in the late 1970s and early 1980s was fine - for the time - but what was needed was to let Phil's voice be heard. My feeling is that taking Phil's texts and setting them out - preferably on-line - so that people can look at them and make their own decisions will be a better course then taking the position that all of his work must be 'properly interpreted' by a 'proper interpreter' in order for it to be heard. Give people the raw data, I've found over the years, and they'll be back for more...

The 'properly interpreted' attitude kind of assumes that the audience is stupid, and unable to read or think for themselves. Over the years, I have found that people who are interested in Tekumel are the exact opposite; one of the main reasons why I've stuck it out so long is the chance to talk about the place with people like you and the other folks on this thread.

The Sourcebook, for example, is fine as a stand-alone book; it has nothing that specifically ties it to S&G except for the title. Same thing with Deeds or Ebon Bindings. It's the 'tied' stuff, originally intended for use with a game that never took off, that I think needs to be left on the 'back list' and offered as PDFs or print-on-demand and not made the flagships of the line.

Let Phil speak. He did create the place, after all...



Chirine,

I think that ultimately this is the crux of the matter. Tekumel needs to simplified and spiced up. Drop all the bloody accent marks, and simplify the names of the critters and what not. Hell, spell them phonetically if needs be! There are already a lot of good game systems out there that can be used, and a new set of rules is not really needed. As you said, let Phil do the talking, but let others freely add to the story. Also, I think Zirunel hit it on the head as well. The art in particular really needs to be updated.  I think that a more realistic look would go a long way in selling it. Case in point. My group recently encountered a powerful and old undead in my game. I used this as the visual aid to describe what they saw (I believe the artist is "Tatarski Skandal"):

[ATTACH=CONFIG]356[/ATTACH]
 
Something like this instantly presents a much stronger impact than the majority of the standard black and white line drawings we get with Tekumel. I know that it ultimately comes down to cost, but an initial larger layout may result in a heck of a lot more attention and interest being generated. Why is the Warhammer universe so popular? Is it due to the great rule sets, or is it due to the "fluff", and a particular specific aesthetic? I personally think the latter two reasons are why.
Anyway, all of this wishful thinking. Until either the control of the IP is wrested away from the Foundation, or the current regime is purged Tekumel will, in my opinion, continue to languish and ultimately disappear altogether.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 08, 2016, 12:56:12 AM
C.S. Lewis frequently condemned the human urge to be part of the "inner circle" or "secret coterie."  Tekumel is a good example of what happens when this urge runs wild.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Opaopajr on September 08, 2016, 02:13:36 AM
Little good will come from being in between these competing priesthoods. Let them war amongst themselves and finish each other off. Eventually creative commons rights will snatch their sacred texts from them and render their heavenly kingdoms ground to dust.

And then we can play Siouxsie & the Banshees in celebration!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 08, 2016, 07:04:35 AM
I doubt that you will ever attract the Euro-Fantasy crowd that want "the usual but with a twist".
You may attract the anime crowd with a Swords & Planet vibe.

Exploring the truly unknown is work and not what most people seem to want to do as entertainment.
So you need something that draws them in that is somewhat familiar and mostly easy.

While the "barbarian just arrived in a boat" can be hard if ran in Full Metal Jacket mode, it is still the best way to introduce a new player if done smoothly.
Same with "You open your pod and see where you have landed for the first time".
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 08, 2016, 07:09:25 AM
What would happen to the survivors if an emergency escape pod ended up on Tekumel?
Starting with the equipment that is included in the pod and the typical skills of a starship crew.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 08, 2016, 08:33:25 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;917902
What would happen to the survivors if an emergency escape pod ended up on Tekumel?
Starting with the equipment that is included in the pod and the typical skills of a starship crew.
=


Wow!!! I would think depended on where they crashed, which age of Tekumel, and the players. Mayhem ensues...!!!

H;0)

PS I'm sure you have some good ideas. Imagine they crash on the other side of Tekumel. You could have yourself a "Planet of the Hokun" campagin!!! Kidnapped by a temple...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on September 08, 2016, 11:00:27 AM
Surely a watch of Planets of the Apes for inspiration would help with a campaign involving a crashed spaceship/pod. Substitute enraged locals for the titular Apes.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 08, 2016, 04:17:50 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr;917874
Little good will come from being in between these competing priesthoods. Let them war amongst themselves and finish each other off. Eventually creative commons rights will snatch their sacred texts from them and render their heavenly kingdoms ground to dust.

And then we can play Siouxsie & the Banshees in celebration!


I prefer Ssúxsie & the Banshees myself. I hear that their tour of Chaigari Protectorate is doing quite well ;)

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 08, 2016, 04:21:48 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;917922
Surely a watch of Planets of the Apes for inspiration would help with a campaign involving a crashed spaceship/pod. Substitute enraged locals for the titular Apes.

That would be a fun campaign and a great story arc to develop. You could have the characters be from pre Time of Darkness Tekumel.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 08, 2016, 04:45:12 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;917991
That would be a fun campaign and a great story arc to develop. You could have the characters be from pre Time of Darkness Tekumel.

Shemek


Planet of the, Beneath the Planet, Escape from the Planet of the...Chnélh!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 08, 2016, 05:33:35 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;917841
Chirine,

I think that ultimately this is the crux of the matter. Tekumel needs to simplified and spiced up. Drop all the bloody accent marks, and simplify the names of the critters and what not. Hell, spell them phonetically if needs be! There are already a lot of good game systems out there that can be used, and a new set of rules is not really needed. As you said, let Phil do the talking, but let others freely add to the story. Also, I think Zirunel hit it on the head as well. The art in particular really needs to be updated.  I think that a more realistic look would go a long way in selling it. Case in point. My group recently encountered a powerful and old undead in my game. I used this as the visual aid to describe what they saw (I believe the artist is "Tatarski Skandal"):

[ATTACH=CONFIG]356[/ATTACH]
 
Something like this instantly presents a much stronger impact than the majority of the standard black and white line drawings we get with Tekumel. I know that it ultimately comes down to cost, but an initial larger layout may result in a heck of a lot more attention and interest being generated. Why is the Warhammer universe so popular? Is it due to the great rule sets, or is it due to the "fluff", and a particular specific aesthetic? I personally think the latter two reasons are why.
Anyway, all of this wishful thinking. Until either the control of the IP is wrested away from the Foundation, or the current regime is purged Tekumel will, in my opinion, continue to languish and ultimately disappear altogether.

Shemek

I'd tend to agree with your points; simply republishing the old books simply because it's the easy way out may make somebody feel good, but doesn't cut the mustard in today's market. Yes we did a lot of very good line art back in the day - but that was because anything else would have been absurdly expensive. With e-publishing, this cost barrier is a lot lower - about the most money would be the artist.

(Warhammer is a sucess due to vertical integration, economy of scale, aggressive marketing, and tailoring the fluff and artwork to the market demographic.)

Could this be done for Tekumel? Yes. Will it happen? Dunno; I gave up trying to predict the future some years ago. It's saved me quite a bit of money I didn't have to spend, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 08, 2016, 05:36:07 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;917865
C.S. Lewis frequently condemned the human urge to be part of the "inner circle" or "secret coterie."  Tekumel is a good example of what happens when this urge runs wild.

All too true. Which makes me wonder why getting into my basement is such a big deal with some people; I get the feeling that there are a lot of folks who derive a lot of 'status' and 'prestige' from being on some sort of 'VIP' list that I supposedly keep. Kind of like announcing that one is someone's 'special friend'.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 08, 2016, 05:42:34 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;917902
What would happen to the survivors if an emergency escape pod ended up on Tekumel?
Starting with the equipment that is included in the pod and the typical skills of a starship crew.
=

It sorta depends on where and when they are from, and how they treat the locals where they land. See also the article "The Language Problem" (by one Philip Barker in one of his fanzines), and also the occasional 'drop in' from other planes like the two hobbits in Bey Su and that Flemish man-at-arms in Jakalla from Phil's own campaign. We had people drop in from the various other Bethorms, for example; they usually dropped back out after a while, but a few got stranded and wound up being guests of either the Imperium or one of the temples and living a pretty good life. Once they learn the local language, they are going to be treated like very valuable rare books and guarded like any high-value treasure. What's in their heads is both valuable and dangerous.

I'd love to run this, given the fun we had with Phil running his own version of it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 08, 2016, 05:59:18 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;917991
That would be a fun campaign and a great story arc to develop. You could have the characters be from pre Time of Darkness Tekumel.

Shemek


Personally, I'd laugh my fool head off if the new arrivals were a bunch of: a) your typical Traveller players; b) your typical Star Wars players; c) your typical Star Trek players; and for the ultimate delight and laughs, your typical D&D players - Phil did this a couple of times, and the results were simply hilarious as the newbies tried to figure out where they were and what they could do about it. And why screwing with us was unhealthy for them.

My all time favorite was having a bunch of your typical PCs hauled in by the Provost and his troopers for being rude to the market merchants. Much hilarity ensued, as we poor dumb backwards locals educated the smart-ass know-it-alls in how the local justice system worked, and how we poor dumb backwards locals had the sheer firepower and numbers to enforce our actions. Some of the best gaming we ever had, I thought.

They thought Tekumel was your typical fantasy world. They were very startled to discover that it's Sword and Planet, and we poor dumb backwards locals got ray guns too. (Much preferred over the pair of .45 Colt Navy revolvers the elves in Blackmoor sold me, by the way; the latter make too much noise, and the clouds of smoke stain the drapes and Her Ladyship gets really annoyed. Never mind the fit the Chief Housekeeper has...:eek: )

[Footnote:Yes, I know that the Colt Navy was normally produced in .36, with rare variations like .40. I think the upgrade in caliber came because Dave loved shooting my .455 Webley Mk VI, what with the three-foot muzzle blast and round slow enough you could correct for fall-of-shot by eye. I also think it was Dave putting one over on Phil - as he was wont to do - as the things were always referred to in Phil's presence as 'magic elvish bang sticks'; Phil was adamantly against black-powder weapons, as he felt that the smoke stained the green carpet on his game table. All of which became a running joke for a good many years; Phil went ballistic (sorry about the pun) when Dave let slip that I had a pair of revolvers and a dozen three-band Enfields for my guards to use in emergencies.]
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 08, 2016, 08:44:22 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;918006
Planet of the, Beneath the Planet, Escape from the Planet of the...Chnélh!!!

H:0)


Mighty Hrugga,


I can just hear it now: "Get your cinnamon stinking paws off me you damn dirty Ssu!" I think I'll have to work old Chuck into one of my games as a Pechani veteran of the northern border.  :p

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 08, 2016, 08:44:27 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;918030
See also the article "The Language Problem" (by one Philip Barker in one of his fanzines), ...

There was mention of the translator balls that fit in your mouth. May be these visitors are another source of those?
(Don't lose it whatever you do.)
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 08, 2016, 08:46:57 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;918028
All too true. Which makes me wonder why getting into my basement is such a big deal with some people; I get the feeling that there are a lot of folks who derive a lot of 'status' and 'prestige' from being on some sort of 'VIP' list that I supposedly keep. Kind of like announcing that one is someone's 'special friend'.

People do the darndest things for the darndest reasons. I keep away from the "special friend" types whenever I can. No thank you sir!

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 08, 2016, 08:47:49 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;918028
All too true. Which makes me wonder why getting into my basement is such a big deal with some people; I get the feeling that there are a lot of folks who derive a lot of 'status' and 'prestige' from being on some sort of 'VIP' list that I supposedly keep. Kind of like announcing that one is someone's 'special friend'.
You know, when I say that "one is someone's 'special friend'" I'm thinking something a bit different than that they are a friend for whom you will open up your basement and let them in to play with your toys...open up your basement and let them in...we'll maybe not so different that what you meant after all.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 08, 2016, 08:55:55 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;918030
It sorta depends on where and when they are from, and how they treat the locals where they land. See also the article "The Language Problem" (by one Philip Barker in one of his fanzines), and also the occasional 'drop in' from other planes like the two hobbits in Bey Su and that Flemish man-at-arms in Jakalla from Phil's own campaign. We had people drop in from the various other Bethorms, for example; they usually dropped back out after a while, but a few got stranded and wound up being guests of either the Imperium or one of the temples and living a pretty good life. Once they learn the local language, they are going to be treated like very valuable rare books and guarded like any high-value treasure. What's in their heads is both valuable and dangerous.

I'd love to run this, given the fun we had with Phil running his own version of it.


It is a blast for sure. I'm currently using this motif (other Bethorms) in my game and we are having a great time. The best part is that I managed to fool my players for 5 sessions before they finally realized that they were on Tekumel! Not easily done as I have been gaming with the same guys for decades. Old Shemek has still got a few tricks up his sleeve. :cool:

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 09, 2016, 12:08:16 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;918070
There was mention of the translator balls that fit in your mouth. May be these visitors are another source of those?
(Don't lose it whatever you do.)
=

You have the translator's balls in your mouth? :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 09, 2016, 12:31:29 AM
I do have some thoughts on the whole issue of Tekumel in the marketplace, but I'm on the night shift at work and I'm beat.

Essentially, as Rob Kuntz says, RPGs have become a consumption item rather than support for imaginative creativity, at least in terms of where the dollars go.  Way more people buy Pathfinder Adventure Paths than make up their own worlds.

So Tekumel is now a niche within a niche.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 09, 2016, 07:07:11 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;918096
I do have some thoughts on the whole issue of Tekumel in the marketplace, but I'm on the night shift at work and I'm beat.

Essentially, as Rob Kuntz says, RPGs have become a consumption item rather than support for imaginative creativity, at least in terms of where the dollars go.  Way more people buy Pathfinder Adventure Paths than make up their own worlds.

So Tekumel is now a niche within a niche.

This is why I think that "Tekumel Adventure Paths" would be consumed if made available.

As for "balls"... he will make sure the conversation works in my favor if he wants them back. ;)
=
Title: Vox Populi, Vox Dei
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 10, 2016, 11:16:10 AM
Originally Posted by Kellri (in the Gloriantha thread):  
A 'let's talk about EPT or RQ' thread instead of another 400 pages of let's ask Chirine ba Kal what he thinks.

Greentongue has very kindly started such a thread; long may it prosper!

If people find this thread useful, and wish to ask me questions about my time with Phil and Tekumel (or about my miniatures, models, and gaming), I have set things up so that I get an e-mail notification that there has been activity here and I will try to respond to that as fast as I can. I check emails twice a day during the week, and about the same on weekends, and I will try to get back to people as fast as I can.

People should also feel free to contact me directly, either through my little blog (see the signature block) or by the e-mail address that I use for my Tekumel activities: chirine@aethervox.net

Thank you all once again for your time and interest; I'll be around, like I have always been.

(Off to the basement to get the Great Black Box done, and glue superstructures to the two Barsoomian sky ships. :))
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on September 10, 2016, 12:40:14 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;918384
Originally Posted by Kellri (in the Gloriantha thread):  
A 'let's talk about EPT or RQ' thread instead of another 400 pages of let's ask Chirine ba Kal what he thinks.

Greentongue has very kindly started such a thread; long may it prosper!

If people find this thread useful, and wish to ask me questions about my time with Phil and Tekumel (or about my miniatures, models, and gaming), I have set things up so that I get an e-mail notification that there has been activity here and I will try to respond to that as fast as I can. I check emails twice a day during the week, and about the same on weekends, and I will try to get back to people as fast as I can.

People should also feel free to contact me directly, either through my little blog (see the signature block) or by the e-mail address that I use for my Tekumel activities: chirine@aethervox.net

Thank you all once again for your time and interest; I'll be around, like I have always been.

(Off to the basement to get the Great Black Box done, and glue superstructures to the two Barsoomian sky ships. :))

Now, now, a 4,392 post thread that's been on the front page for over a year doesn't exactly point to you not being welcome, does it?  If everyone took off when someone threw an elbow there'd be no one here.

Last time I checked, what the OP of a thread actually wants in their thread is of very little importance to put it mildly.  You want to post a Tsolyani Primer in the other EPT thread, or post pictures of Barker's basement, go ahead, no one has to read it if they don't want to. :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 10, 2016, 02:56:46 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;918403
Now, now, a 4,392 post thread that's been on the front page for over a year doesn't exactly point to you not being welcome, does it?  If everyone took off when someone threw an elbow there'd be no one here.

Last time I checked, what the OP of a thread actually wants in their thread is of very little importance to put it mildly.  You want to post a Tsolyani Primer in the other EPT thread, or post pictures of Barker's basement, go ahead, no one has to read it if they don't want to. :D

My intent is not to denigrate this thread, of which I am very thankful, but to provide a place where people are welcome to post NON-Standard versions of Tekumel that interest them.

This thread seems to be (correctly) focused on The Professor's version and may intimidate people that want to go off in a wild tangent from that.

chirine is more than welcome to post about variants that he has encountered in his long and prolific gaming experience.
Especially if he can remember and share his initial Off the Boat impressions of the setting.
I'm sure the experience of players from Blackmoor arriving in Tekumel would be entertaining to all.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 10, 2016, 03:00:23 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;918403
Now, now, a 4,392 post thread that's been on the front page for over a year doesn't exactly point to you not being welcome, does it?  If everyone took off when someone threw an elbow there'd be no one here.

Last time I checked, what the OP of a thread actually wants in their thread is of very little importance to put it mildly.  You want to post a Tsolyani Primer in the other EPT thread, or post pictures of Barker's basement, go ahead, no one has to read it if they don't want to. :D

Thanks for your comments! I'm in a holding pattern at the moment - I've run out of beam clamps for gluing the superstructure of the first ship together - and the e-mail pinged.

I think you may be reading a bit much into my last post - which is not at all your fault, as e-communications are not very good at sharing nuance and tone. Let me see if I can't be more clear...

I don't feel unwelcome at all, which is why I said I had set up the ping to let me know of activity. It's much more a matter of time management; I have very limited free time, especially during my work week, and especially at this point in the academic year - for example, there's a football game today, and in my old job I'd have been out there baking my brains out making sure the asphalt hadn't been stolen by the drunks - and I've found that I can either sit in front of the computer looking through the forums to see if there's anything I'm interested in, or do some writing and painting. The vast majority of discussions on-line - and I include the 'how-many-angels-can-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin' discussions on the Tekumel Yahoo group - are about things I know nothing about or have any interest in. While I read some 2,000 words a minute, I am very dyslexic, and typing anything takes forever and gives me headaches; the same dyslexia also enables me to be the kind of model-builder that I am, so there is a positive side to it.

(Add in the very spotty Internet service we have here at the house, and I wind up having to look in on things at odd times. This will get better, once Fifth Daughter moves in with us; we'll have to massively upgrade our connection and bandwidth for her school studies.)

What I am interested in, and what I'm willing to commit time and energy to, is talking about the world-setting that Phil created, and our time playing in that setting. (I am not interested in discussions of rules mechanics; I've had to sit through too many of those over the decades I've been doing this.) As I said, if people want to ask me about that kind of thing, then I'll do the best I can to answer those questions. I happen to agree with a lot of what's been said, like 'fuck Barker's players', because it's what I've been saying for years - and what Phil himself said, which is "Make Tekumel your own". What we did isn't the Sacred Scrolls - what we did was sit around and have some fun. If you can use any of our stories to make your games more fun and interesting for your players, then feel free to use them. Otherwise, it's your game and you should do what you want to.

What I'm doing is looking at where I put my time and energy, and concentrating on the things that I find fun. As I said, please do feel free to ask me questions, either here or on my blog; I'll be around, but just not as intensively as I used to be.

Does this help explain my position?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 10, 2016, 03:12:38 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;918439
My intent is not to denigrate this thread, of which I am very thankful, but to provide a place where people are welcome to post NON-Standard versions of Tekumel that interest them.

This thread seems to be (correctly) focused on The Professor's version and may intimidate people that want to go off in a wild tangent from that.

chirine is more than welcome to post about variants that he has encountered in his long and prolific gaming experience.
Especially if he can remember and share his initial Off the Boat impressions of the setting.
I'm sure the experience of players from Blackmoor arriving in Tekumel would be entertaining to all.
=

Thank you for your post!!!

I did not, and do not, take your creation of the EPT thread as any kind of negative comment on this one; the kind of discussions that you mention are the very same kind that we used to have - and which Phil was always amused and delighted by.

I go kind of berserk over the idea of a 'standard Tekumel'; Phil used to say right up front that his games were different from his novels, and that he himself picked and chose from the former to provide 'local color' in the latter. Phil used what I think are called 'mash-ups' quite a bit, and usually managed to slip them in on all of us without anybody getting the idea - his wild tangents were a lot wilder then anything I've ever seen gamers come up with! And he used the stuff from other campaigns, too; see also Lord Gamalu, from upstate New York, and the various tourists we had over the years from Blackmoor, Barsoom, Greyhawk, Arisia, and points beyond. This whole notion of 'canon' Tekumel got started in the 1990s as a way to promote some people's self-interest, and it's been a pretty constraining attitude ever since.

If there's something you want me to talk about, ask away, and then feel free to move the information where you want it. I work better with a Q & A format, and with more specific types of questions; the broader the question, the less likely I'll be able to give you a useful answer.

Does this help, at all?

(Uh, oh! Glue timer just went off; 'scuse, please!)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 10, 2016, 07:14:45 PM
My participation is hemmed by school sports too... I've been working til 10 or so Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday nights covering high school sports for the newspaper.

Weather is still nice here so model building has to wait a bit. I've become very fond of Tenax 7R cement and the "Touch and Flow" applicator for plastics. I also read something a while ago from a chemist saying that cyanoacrylate should be discarded a few weeks or so after it's opened.  Since then I've switched to the tiny little cheap tubes from the drugstore; they work just as good when they're fresh. Makes it easier to avoid gluing oneself to one's work too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 11, 2016, 08:34:46 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;918444
If there's something you want me to talk about, ask away, and then feel free to move the information where you want it. I work better with a Q & A format, and with more specific types of questions; the broader the question, the less likely I'll be able to give you a useful answer.

Well, if you remember your initial "We're NOT in Kansas Anymore" moment and could post that in the other thread, that would be nice.
If you don't remember, you can make something up, who's to know?
May even promote your book. ;)

My goal in that thread, as much as there is one, is to break the "Canon" mindset with ideas and examples that clearly are NOT.
Initially, there was no "Canon" so first impression are interesting.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 11, 2016, 08:51:07 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;918483
My participation is hemmed by school sports too... I've been working til 10 or so Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday nights covering high school sports for the newspaper.

Weather is still nice here so model building has to wait a bit. I've become very fond of Tenax 7R cement and the "Touch and Flow" applicator for plastics. I also read something a while ago from a chemist saying that cyanoacrylate should be discarded a few weeks or so after it's opened.  Since then I've switched to the tiny little cheap tubes from the drugstore; they work just as good when they're fresh. Makes it easier to avoid gluing oneself to one's work too.


Yep; I'm really glad not to lose all my Saturdays between August and January, anymore, which is one of the big reasons why I changed jobs. The issue is time and energy - I'm finding that I'm having to take a really close look at where I budget what I have of both, and (in effect) maximizing the 'return on investment' in both.

And, I will freely admit, there have been some pretty negative things going on that have really soured me on dealing with gamers and agming. As an example of this, one of the players in your Gary Con "Legions" game was the one who tried to bribe me; I was offered all-expense trips to Gary Con and North Texas RPG Con, but in return I had to 'edit' everything I said on my blog and the rest of the Internet to reflect his views and support his business - including saying only very positive and supporting things about the Foundation, quote "because you hurt their feelings" unquote. Idiot never bothered to ask if I wanted to go to conventions and run games for him; he just assumed that I did, because it's his idea of heaven to do that kind of thing. Cut that connection pretty quickly. So, I look very hard at what I do, and who I interact with, and if I'm not having fun I tend to lave the room. This is why I left a lot of the Internet sites that I'd been looking at, a couple of years ago; I was putting in a lot of time and getting very little back.

I'm finding the 'Talk about EPT thread' pretty entertaining - Kelleri's especially fun to read, even though he'd probably shit a brick at the idea, as he's saying a lot of the same things that I say and have been saying for forty years. New generation, and all that; it's a delight to see people actually talking about EPT. What I find really amusing are the preconceptions about what I'm supposed to have said and done; I do get the impression that I'm preaching some sort of orthodoxy, which is news to me.

I'll try the Tenax. I have some of their older stuff in stock, but haven't done any plastic modeling for ages; last project in plastics was building your legion, actually. Current project is using good old fashioned wood glue...

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Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 11, 2016, 09:16:01 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;918125
This is why I think that "Tekumel Adventure Paths" would be consumed if made available.

I missed this, first time through - sorry!

Yes, very much so. 'Basic' adventures that set up the world and inspire that 'sense of wonder' that we had back in '75 - '76 would go a long way to introducing Tekumel to players. I'm not very good at writing such things - I'm not much of a 'gamer', after all - but I'm doing what I can with "To Serve The Petal Throne". I'm staying away from the 'game mechanics' aspect of our adventures (for which I have been roundly criticized by gamers, who seem to want a new set of RPG rules) and providing an account of what we did for people to use and adapt to their games.

If I may make an observation, hard-core Tekumel fans who have looked at the drafts haven't liked it; soft-core Tekumel fans who have looked at the drafts like it. Personally, I think I'm going in the right direction; I'm not writing this for the people who agonize over glottal stops and bilabial phoneme fricatives - I'm writing this for people who want to explore the unknown and have adventures. And maybe a little fun mixed in with the sense of wonder.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 11, 2016, 09:24:16 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;918096
I do have some thoughts on the whole issue of Tekumel in the marketplace, but I'm on the night shift at work and I'm beat.

Essentially, as Rob Kuntz says, RPGs have become a consumption item rather than support for imaginative creativity, at least in terms of where the dollars go.  Way more people buy Pathfinder Adventure Paths than make up their own worlds.

So Tekumel is now a niche within a niche.

Agreed. Which is why Piazo is making money - if that's what the market wants, you give it to them if you want to stay in business.

And what struck me about all of the people trooping through the basement over the past five years with their Big Plans and Wonderful Schemes is that none of them seem to have absorbed this lesson. Everybody is looking at capturing some small niche of the small RPG hobby, like being 'Properly OSR' or 'Politically Correct'. None of them seemed to have any really good grasp of the hobby, the industry, or of basic business in general. And following their subsequent careers hasn't dissuaded me of this opinion...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on September 11, 2016, 09:58:27 AM
Chirine, I have a few questions for you!

a - Which factions would be interested in getting their hands on one of the supposed Keys to Ksarul' Blue Room? The semi-secret sects within the temple of Ksarul would be in on the action, of course (some of them might actually be in conflict with each other, over how best to handle the "Key" or "Keys"). I also suspect that the Temple of Thumis might be interested in acquiring such "object", if only to thwart anything the Ksarul crew might try to pull off. Maybe the AOL too, to keep things in check for the Empire. What do you say?

b - One of the solo Gardasiyal adventures sees the PC take part in a hunt on some high clan's fief. How are such fiefs organized and maintained? Who takes care of the grounds when there is no hunt? How do the clans that maintain the fief on a day-to-day basis sustain themselves? Are they basically agrarian clans that cultivate and whatever else they do as a regular activity? Where does the money needed to maintain the fief come from? Assuming we're talking about a large fief, are there medium clans in charge of lower clans, all of which work together on the fief?

c - Let's say members of a temple's secret faction (say, a bunch of priests of Ksarul) decide to kidnap the member of another temple (say, from the temple of Thumis or some other clan) on the assumption that that other priest/priestess has information they need to track one of the Keys. Obviously, this would breach the Concordat and would therefore be highly interesting to the Empire and even, why not, to any of these two temples' leadership which might actually not be aware of the Concordat-breaking plot. What sort of people would get hired to conduct such risky operation? Mercenaries of some sort (local/foreign humans and/or non-humans)? Any other suggestion?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 11, 2016, 10:08:58 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;918624
Quote from: Greentongue;918125
This is why I think that "Tekumel Adventure Paths" would be consumed if made available.

I missed this, first time through - sorry!

Yes, very much so. 'Basic' adventures that set up the world and inspire that 'sense of wonder' that we had back in '75 - '76 would go a long way to introducing Tekumel to players. I'm not very good at writing such things - I'm not much of a 'gamer', after all - but I'm doing what I can with "To Serve The Petal Throne". I'm staying away from the 'game mechanics' aspect of our adventures (for which I have been roundly criticized by gamers, who seem to want a new set of RPG rules) and providing an account of what we did for people to use and adapt to their games.

If I may make an observation, hard-core Tekumel fans who have looked at the drafts haven't liked it; soft-core Tekumel fans who have looked at the drafts like it. Personally, I think I'm going in the right direction; I'm not writing this for the people who agonize over glottal stops and bilabial phoneme fricatives - I'm writing this for people who want to explore the unknown and have adventures. And maybe a little fun mixed in with the sense of wonder.


Adventurous and fun it is!!! So how much more do you have to go till we can consume the complete
Saga...??? So Uncle please stop your blabbering and get on with it(bilabial phoneme fractives and proper honorifics used)!!!
Truth be told, I don't care who doesn't like it. I do. I will some how (if I have to make one myself)have a hard bound copy...Fan fiction indeed!!! I find it not so different from what the Professor wrote(maybe a bit more humorous).

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 11, 2016, 11:27:20 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;918633
Chirine, I have a few questions for you!

a - Which factions would be interested in getting their hands on one of the supposed Keys to Ksarul' Blue Room? The semi-secret sects within the temple of Ksarul would be in on the action, of course (some of them might actually be in conflict with each other, over how best to handle the "Key" or "Keys"). I also suspect that the Temple of Thumis might be interested in acquiring such "object", if only to thwart anything the Ksarul crew might try to pull off. Maybe the AOL too, to keep things in check for the Empire. What do you say?

I'm going to break this into three replies, If I may.

Everybody, and I do mean everybody, in and out of the Five Empires - all the various power blocs, the temples, the factions within the temples, the clans, the factions inside the clans, non-humans like the 'wild' Pe Choi and the Shen, the Undying Wizards, the Gods themselves, the Pariah Deities, the Imperium, the various factions in the Tlakotani family, the Hokun with their sticky glass fingers, you name it. (Me too, for that matter.) The Keys and Wards that they fit into are supremely high-value 'poker-chips' in the game of politics, and mere possession of one would confer a huge advantage to the holder. It's like having an 'Eye' or a steel sword, but on the cosmic scale.

Mayhem always did and always will ensue, when one of these things shows up. They are just too valuable to ignore, and keeping the things out of the hands of everybody else is a powerful objective.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 11, 2016, 11:41:58 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;918633
Chirine, I have a few questions for you!

b - One of the solo Gardasiyal adventures sees the PC take part in a hunt on some high clan's fief. How are such fiefs organized and maintained? Who takes care of the grounds when there is no hunt? How do the clans that maintain the fief on a day-to-day basis sustain themselves? Are they basically agrarian clans that cultivate and whatever else they do as a regular activity? Where does the money needed to maintain the fief come from? Assuming we're talking about a large fief, are there medium clans in charge of lower clans, all of which work together on the fief?

The two-hex fiefs are miniature versions of the provinces and cities. You have a fief-holder, named by the Imperium, who supposedly is the absolute ruler of the fief in the name of the Seal Imperium; normally, the governor is one of the local worthies from one of the local high clans, and by an odd coincidence his 'advisory counsel' is all made up of the local notables from the local clans. On occasion, somebody from 'outside' gets nominated as a reward for service to the Imperium (or for a suitable 'inducement) and they either work with the locals to keep the place running and the taxes paid to the Imperium or they get dead or removed from office - usually, the former. All the Imperium wants to see are the tax revenues and nice quite reports saying that everything is quiet; a smart governor makes sure to keep the locals happy and the Imperium paid. All of the clans have relationships with each other; low defers to medium, medium defers to high, and occasionally the high defers to the governor. Everybody does indeed work together, up to and including removing an unpopular or incompetent or just plain nasty governor.

It's all about place, position, and the steady flow of things in society.

Yes, the local farming clans grow the crops, and the local merchant clans use their connections with the larger and more up-status clans to bring the crops to market and so generate the revenue that keep the whole Imperium going. Usually, a smart governor uses just the fief's revenue for upkeep, and lives within their means. The governor is, however, expected by the Imperium to invest their own money for anything major, and then to make back their investment from the local revenues. (You can see where this can lead.) This is why local governors love to see the arrival of player-characters in their fief; these can be hired or persuaded to go have a look at Something that the locals have been pestering the governor about. Since it might be treasure or something good, one sends in the PCs, and collects a percentage if they come back. Otherwise, talk to the clans, and get them to send more PCs. (Mayhem ensues.)

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 11, 2016, 11:57:04 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;918633
Chirine, I have a few questions for you!

c - Let's say members of a temple's secret faction (say, a bunch of priests of Ksarul) decide to kidnap the member of another temple (say, from the temple of Thumis or some other clan) on the assumption that that other priest/priestess has information they need to track one of the Keys. Obviously, this would breach the Concordat and would therefore be highly interesting to the Empire and even, why not, to any of these two temples' leadership which might actually not be aware of the Concordat-breaking plot. What sort of people would get hired to conduct such risky operation? Mercenaries of some sort (local/foreign humans and/or non-humans)? Any other suggestion?

Player-characters. They're cheap, deniable, and expendable. They night be mercenaries, in which case they'd get a trifle more consideration as you might need to hire them again or need to hire more mercenaries, but usually they'd be the kind of clan members that the clan needs to find something useful for them to do. One is usually pretty careful about hiring the people from one's own temple or clan, as if they get caught they can talk too much. One can have the temple of clan send somebody from 'out of town', which has a big advantage in that they are unknown and don't have any (one hopes!) secrets that they can spill. One can also hire the Ndalu Clan or the Black Y Society, but that's just asking for trouble in matters like this. Put the word out that you need some likely young heroes for an adventure, and they'll be banging on your door.

It's how I got my start, doing this kind of 'odd job' for the Imperium. Luckily, I happened to be very, very good at it.

Kidnapping somebody is not done above ground in the daylight; it's done in the Underworlds or under some sort of Imperial writ. (See also "Man of Gold", where the various Imperial siblings have their henchbeings doing various nefarious deeds.) If your target happens to be in the Underworld, they are fair game; if walking down the street, they are not and the Concordat (and the Imperium) comes into play. With a writ, it's like arresting somebody, but then their patrons contact their Imperial sibling and get a release order. Much better to grab them when they are on an adventure, and 'invite' them to come home to meet the family and stay for a while. Ransoms are usually offered and accepted, too. Always keep in mind that you may need a favor from this person or their clan or temple in the future, and be polite...

Again, does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 11, 2016, 12:19:51 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;918637
Quote from: chirine ba kal;918624

Adventurous and fun it is!!! So how much more do you have to go till we can consume the complete
Saga...??? So Uncle please stop your blabbering and get on with it(bilabial phoneme fractives and proper honorifics used)!!!
Truth be told, I don't care who doesn't like it. I do. I will some how (if I have to make one myself)have a hard bound copy...Fan fiction indeed!!! I find it not so different from what the Professor wrote(maybe a bit more humorous).

H;0)

Well, I had set myself a limit / goal of 300,000 words for the whole thing, with a limit of 50,000 words for each volume. I am now up past 126,000+; the breakdown is like this, at the moment:

I - 10,549; II- 21,018; III - 8,528; IV - 10,895; V - 42,785; VI - 32,590

These are not 'hard' limits; I'm a lot more concerned with telling the stories, then anything else.

Breaking through 125,000 words was a great feeling, and the typing on the new laptop is working better and better with practice; losing the big 'billboard' Mac G5 was a terrible shock and a bad scare, as we nearly lost the digital version of the entire book. We had a hard-copy backup from March of 2015 (the three-ring binder I took to show to people at Gary Con that year) but there was no digital backup; this is now fixed, and we make backups regularly.  I am still learning the version of Word that the laptop is loaded with, but it is coming.

I am doing a lot of 'translation' as I write, as we just didn't use a lot of the Tsolyani terms at the game table, like people seem to think we did; Phil was always happy to discourse on them on cue, but didn't let them get in the way of game play. We'd use the same 'shorthand' terms when our PCs were talking, and that's waht I'm trying to do in the book; I'm trying to portray the flow of our game play, and stay away from the 'nuts and bolts' as Phil just didn't use The Rules all that much. (Big, and I do mean BIG, miniatures games were the exception.) What I'm trying to do is tell our story, and Phil's, and about the sheer fun we had on our adventures.

A lot of the dialog is humorous because it was - Phil would spend quite a bit of effort to set up a situation where he could then drop a funny line, and he also appreciated things like our doing the 'Breakfast in the Bastion' scene from "Four Musketeers"; he got a good laugh from Gronan asking "Why do we always have to attack uphill?"

One thing to remember is that we gamed with Phil from 1974 (Gronan and company) to 1988 (Chirine and company), one night a week, 52 weeks a year; we have a lot of notes and recordings to go through. I'm going as fast as I can manage; projects like the Barsoomian flyers or painting up the Ladies-in-Waiting helps get me going, as I remember stuff and get it written up. The recent tubeway car model is helping me do Book IV's 'Malchairan Emerald', for example. Your questions also help, as they keep things fresh in my mind.

Completion date? I don't know, really. Sooner, rather then later, as I ramp up my production, I think; I'll just have to keep plugging away on the thing...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 11, 2016, 01:47:53 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;918646
Player-characters. They're cheap, deniable, and expendable. They night be mercenaries, in which case they'd get a trifle more consideration as you might need to hire them again or need to hire more mercenaries, but usually they'd be the kind of clan members that the clan needs to find something useful for them to do. One is usually pretty careful about hiring the people from one's own temple or clan, as if they get caught they can talk too much. One can have the temple of clan send somebody from 'out of town', which has a big advantage in that they are unknown and don't have any (one hopes!) secrets that they can spill. One can also hire the Ndalu Clan or the Black Y Society, but that's just asking for trouble in matters like this. Put the word out that you need some likely young heroes for an adventure, and they'll be banging on your door.

It's how I got my start, doing this kind of 'odd job' for the Imperium. Luckily, I happened to be very, very good at it.

Kidnapping somebody is not done above ground in the daylight; it's done in the Underworlds or under some sort of Imperial writ. (See also "Man of Gold", where the various Imperial siblings have their henchbeings doing various nefarious deeds.) If your target happens to be in the Underworld, they are fair game; if walking down the street, they are not and the Concordat (and the Imperium) comes into play. With a writ, it's like arresting somebody, but then their patrons contact their Imperial sibling and get a release order. Much better to grab them when they are on an adventure, and 'invite' them to come home to meet the family and stay for a while. Ransoms are usually offered and accepted, too. Always keep in mind that you may need a favor from this person or their clan or temple in the future, and be polite...

Again, does this help?


Uncle since we are on the subject...Let's say a spurned lover kidnaps/tries to kidnap his would be love. His love was on the way to Bey Su to be out of reach of the crazed lover(sent off by the clan elders), or to be married off like a good clan girl should. PCs are hired to safely guard the Lady on her trip. Mayhem ensues. Would be lover's plot to kidnap lady and flee foiled by PCs. Kidnapper captured. Who handles punishment and what would most likely happen to our would be kiddnapper? Oh, I forgot to mention the would be lovers are from the same clan...Thanks.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 11, 2016, 01:50:16 PM
Hand 'em back to the clan, collect the reward, and get the hell out of town.  The clan will sort it out.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on September 11, 2016, 02:12:45 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;918643
(...) It's like having an 'Eye' or a steel sword, but on the cosmic scale.

Mayhem always did and always will ensue, when one of these things shows up. They are just too valuable to ignore, and keeping the things out of the hands of everybody else is a powerful objective.

I had a feeling that theses objects would indeed be of interest to many factions (including other-planar and non-human ones). But the way you put it ("cosmic scale") brings it home.

Hmm ... I'm gonna scale back my ambitions a tad and start my adventures super slowly! Wouldn't want to throw the players (and myself) in at the deep end right form the start!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on September 11, 2016, 02:16:49 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;918644
The two-hex fiefs are miniature versions of the provinces and cities. You have a fief-holder, named by the Imperium, who supposedly is the absolute ruler of the fief in the name of the Seal Imperium (...)

Thank you for the details.

So then, for a hunt, does the following sound right to you?

The "owners" (keeping in mind that only the Seal Emperor/Empress owns things in Tsolyanu), so, the owners of a piece of property located on some fief would contact the medium and lower clans maintaining the grounds and order them to get ready to welcome a party of hunters and their entourage. Such preparations would entail (1) hiring local trackers and beaters (capable members of the local agrarian clans, I presume) to make sure that game is plentiful and well accounted for (speaking of the local rare and high-value animals here), (2) prepping the equivalent of the hunting lodge belonging to the high-clan bringing in friends and guests to welcome a large group of revelers (only a few of which will actually hunt), etc. Invitations to the hunt would probably be sent out to the neighboring high-clans too, including to the fief's governor, but more as a mark of respect and proper decorum than as an actual invitation, etc.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on September 11, 2016, 02:21:37 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;918646
Player-characters. They're cheap, deniable, and expendable. They night be mercenaries, in which case they'd get a trifle more consideration as you might need to hire them again (...)

Actually, the way I have it, the players start as the trackers and the behind-the-scenes organizers of a hunt. While on a hunting expedition to a local ruin, they end up witnessing a kidnapping attempt. Whether it succeeds or not, the PCs would then find themselves hired by the faction (clan or temple) targeted in the attack to protect the target, and/or find out what happened and/or who was behind the perfidious act, etc.

In other words, in my little adventures, the PCs would be the mercenaries hired to track the mercenaries.

Anyway, I'm still working on it, but this is the basic early premise, one that would hopefully lead to further (pulpish) adventures.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on September 11, 2016, 03:42:30 PM
And another query, on giving away loot.

When PCs find loot, the local lords (if/when applicable), their clans and their temples get a share. That's a lot of parties to satisfy, which may leave the PCs with little of their hard-won treasures.

On these occasions, would the Professor let the players decide what they wanted to give, or would he simply say, So-and-so hiSo-and-so takes your gem, or your sword, or your Eye?

I'm sure there were moment when players (or their characters) would sort of revolt a little, either by arguing with the Prof., or by "not declaring" a particular object.  Inducements were also probably an option: "I'll give you that amount of money if I can keep the Eye, the sword, the gem, etc".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 11, 2016, 09:42:57 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;918659
Uncle since we are on the subject...Let's say a spurned lover kidnaps/tries to kidnap his would be love. His love was on the way to Bey Su to be out of reach of the crazed lover(sent off by the clan elders), or to be married off like a good clan girl should. PCs are hired to safely guard the Lady on her trip. Mayhem ensues. Would be lover's plot to kidnap lady and flee foiled by PCs. Kidnapper captured. Who handles punishment and what would most likely happen to our would be kiddnapper? Oh, I forgot to mention the would be lovers are from the same clan...Thanks.

H:0)


What Gronan said; this is an internal clan matter, and unless the PCs are members of the clan it's none of their business. The clan elders will deal with this.

My gut feeling is that said elders will marry the two of them off to each other, and then give the couple a wedding present of a two-hex fief waaay out in the boondocks where the two of them can be very happy and not disturb the clan.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 11, 2016, 09:44:17 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;918663
I had a feeling that theses objects would indeed be of interest to many factions (including other-planar and non-human ones). But the way you put it ("cosmic scale") brings it home.

Hmm ... I'm gonna scale back my ambitions a tad and start my adventures super slowly! Wouldn't want to throw the players (and myself) in at the deep end right form the start!

Probably a good idea; I like to ease players in easily, too. More fun for them, and it's easier to pick on things that way.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 11, 2016, 09:51:46 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;918664
Thank you for the details.

So then, for a hunt, does the following sound right to you?

The "owners" (keeping in mind that only the Seal Emperor/Empress owns things in Tsolyanu), so, the owners of a piece of property located on some fief would contact the medium and lower clans maintaining the grounds and order them to get ready to welcome a party of hunters and their entourage. Such preparations would entail (1) hiring local trackers and beaters (capable members of the local agrarian clans, I presume) to make sure that game is plentiful and well accounted for (speaking of the local rare and high-value animals here), (2) prepping the equivalent of the hunting lodge belonging to the high-clan bringing in friends and guests to welcome a large group of revelers (only a few of which will actually hunt), etc. Invitations to the hunt would probably be sent out to the neighboring high-clans too, including to the fief's governor, but more as a mark of respect and proper decorum than as an actual invitation, etc.

Oh, yes, I like this a lot! Think big Edwardian house party, with all sorts of great and noble people and their hordes of retainers. Lots of intrigue, gossip, politics, and animals with sharp teeth in the bushes.

Yes, of course all the local worthies would be invited - it would be a scandal not to! And most of them would not dream of coming - it would be a scandal! So, everybody would tender very polite regrets, saying that they had temple business or something, and send back tokens of their esteem - like a sheaf of nice arrows for the hunt. The inviter would send back their own regrets, saying what a pity it was that one could not be at the party, and include a small gift of their own as a token of their esteem. Keep in mind the economy of favors - you might need a favor from them, someday.

And the polite formal invitations would be backed up by very private messages like "Would you please come?" as you owe them a favor; they might also come back with "I can't make it, but cousin Gronan is visiting from Bey Su; could you show him a good time and demonstrate that we're not country bumpkins?"

So I think you have gotten it down just right - mayhem will no doubt ensue... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 11, 2016, 09:53:52 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;918666
Actually, the way I have it, the players start as the trackers and the behind-the-scenes organizers of a hunt. While on a hunting expedition to a local ruin, they end up witnessing a kidnapping attempt. Whether it succeeds or not, the PCs would then find themselves hired by the faction (clan or temple) targeted in the attack to protect the target, and/or find out what happened and/or who was behind the perfidious act, etc.

In other words, in my little adventures, the PCs would be the mercenaries hired to track the mercenaries.

Anyway, I'm still working on it, but this is the basic early premise, one that would hopefully lead to further (pulpish) adventures.

Perfect! It sounds like what Phil used to run with us... :)

(Gronan could always be counted on for two-fisted action, being Korunme, the All Tsolyani Boy. Me, I just held the bags and cleaned up the blood.) :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 11, 2016, 10:09:49 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;918673
And another query, on giving away loot.

When PCs find loot, the local lords (if/when applicable), their clans and their temples get a share. That's a lot of parties to satisfy, which may leave the PCs with little of their hard-won treasures.

On these occasions, would the Professor let the players decide what they wanted to give, or would he simply say, So-and-so hiSo-and-so takes your gem, or your sword, or your Eye?

I'm sure there were moment when players (or their characters) would sort of revolt a little, either by arguing with the Prof., or by "not declaring" a particular object.  Inducements were also probably an option: "I'll give you that amount of money if I can keep the Eye, the sword, the gem, etc".

Nver had anything like what you describe happen out at Phil's; it never came up, actually. (Gronan, can you remember anything like this?) Usually, we got to keep anything and everything we found, with the very rare exceptions like a working air-car or lighting bringer; we normally donated that kind of thing to the Imperium straight away, to avoid tax troubles. (What's 1% of the value of a lighting bringer? We take cash, thanks.)

Normally, percentages would be set out by all parties in advance, so that there would be no disagreements when the adventurers got back. (If they got back, of course.) Items would be valued by a good appraiser, and the values split by the party and the others according to the prior agreement. As you say, inducements to allow for keeping a favored item were common, and always honored - you don't get people to work for you if you screw them over. We'd pay out the percentages to our patrons as a matter of 'overhead' for the party.

When items were wanted by somebody powerful, the owning PC was always compensated for the value of the item; this is why I had over three million in cash or in steel on several occasions. Lord So-and-Sp might say "I want that item!", but it would then be up to him and his clan / temple / Imperial office to negotiate a fair settlement. One never cheeses off the minions, as they can always simply refuse to work for one; being fair pays off, as you may need something form them in the future. Tsolyani society runs on the basis of 'enlightened self-interest', and trying to enforce the latter of the law usually backfires - much better (and for the game, too) to work out some sort of mutually agreeable solution.

Prince Mirusiya: "This ship is full of steel and iron, Chirine."
Me: "Yes it is, Highborn, and I thought you might see your way to accepting it as my contribution to the war effort."
Prince Mirusiya: "My old friend, have you considered a career in the Imperial government? I hear there's a vacancy in Hekellu, and I'd like to see the position filled by somebody who knows how to run things, Lord Chirine."
Me: "I serve the Petal Throne, Highborn."

- "To Serve The Petal Throne", Book IV
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on September 12, 2016, 04:48:08 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;918712
Prince Mirusiya: "This ship is full of steel and iron, Chirine."
Me: "Yes it is, Highborn, and I thought you might see your way to accepting it as my contribution to the war effort."
Prince Mirusiya: "My old friend, have you considered a career in the Imperial government? I hear there's a vacancy in Hekellu, and I'd like to see the position filled by somebody who knows how to run things, Lord Chirine."
Me: "I serve the Petal Throne, Highborn."
- "To Serve The Petal Throne", Book IV

This, right there, is why I very much look forward to your book. It is entertaining to read (and well written, I might add - I'm thinking here of the other excerpts I've read), and it is doubly informative: on Tsolyani society and on how to run the world, as a GM. The best of both worlds.
Can't wait.

And thank you for the other replies (and encouragements).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 12, 2016, 07:23:19 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;918766
This, right there, is why I very much look forward to your book. It is entertaining to read (and well written, I might add - I'm thinking here of the other excerpts I've read), and it is doubly informative: on Tsolyani society and on how to run the world, as a GM. The best of both worlds.
Can't wait.

And thank you for the other replies (and encouragements).

Thank you for the very kind words!!! I started the thing to tell friends and family about our adventures, and the thing seems to be useful to people.

And you're very welcome; running Tekumel never seemed to be a problem, back in the day, as we like to emphasize the 'action-adventure' style of play; we never worried about getting all the details right, out at Phil's and so I've never been a stickler for following 'the canon'. The game's the thing, and you follow it where the play takes you.

Phil never worried about the details; he expected that if he missed something or made a mistake, I'd keep my trap shut and send him a note down the table if I thought that he thought it might be important. Sometimes he's 'fix' it; more often then not, he'd just keep right on going and worry about it later. If Phil wasn't a 'canonista', then how could I be was my guiding thought.

All I can do is tell you what we did, way back when, and if that has any resonance for you in your games then you are welcome to what we learned. Go out, play games, and have adventures; that's what this is all about, I think... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 12, 2016, 07:27:35 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;918766
This, right there, is why I very much look forward to your book. It is entertaining to read (and well written, I might add - I'm thinking here of the other excerpts I've read), and it is doubly informative: on Tsolyani society and on how to run the world, as a GM. The best of both worlds.
Can't wait.

And thank you for the other replies (and encouragements).


Thank you for the very kind words!!! I started the thing to tell friends and family about our adventures, and the thing seems to be useful to people.

And you're very welcome; running Tekumel never seemed to be a problem, back in the day, as we like to emphasize the 'action-adventure' style of play; we never worried about getting all the details right, out at Phil's and so I've never been a stickler for following 'the canon'. The game's the thing, and you follow it where the play takes you.

Phil never worried about the details; he expected that if he missed something or made a mistake, I'd keep my trap shut and send him a note down the table if I thought that he thought it might be important. Sometimes he's 'fix' it; more often then not, he'd just keep right on going and worry about it later. If Phil wasn't a 'canonista', then how could I be was my guiding thought.

All I can do is tell you what we did, way back when, and if that has any resonance for you in your games then you are welcome to what we learned. Go out, play games, and have adventures; that's what this is all about, I think... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 12, 2016, 07:41:54 PM
I would have to guess that with more than 80 thousand views, a few other people have found it useful or at least interesting.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 12, 2016, 07:46:47 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;918895
I would have to guess that with more than 80 thousand views, a few other people have found it useful or at least interesting.
=

And not all of them had secret Tekumel forum names. :rolleyes:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 12, 2016, 08:25:46 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;918892
Thank you for the very kind words!!! I started the thing to tell friends and family about our adventures, and the thing seems to be useful to people.

And you're very welcome; running Tekumel never seemed to be a problem, back in the day, as we like to emphasize the 'action-adventure' style of play; we never worried about getting all the details right, out at Phil's and so I've never been a stickler for following 'the canon'. The game's the thing, and you follow it where the play takes you.

Phil never worried about the details; he expected that if he missed something or made a mistake, I'd keep my trap shut and send him a note down the table if I thought that he thought it might be important. Sometimes he's 'fix' it; more often then not, he'd just keep right on going and worry about it later. If Phil wasn't a 'canonista', then how could I be was my guiding thought.

All I can do is tell you what we did, way back when, and if that has any resonance for you in your games then you are welcome to what we learned. Go out, play games, and have adventures; that's what this is all about, I think... :)


I had a new player join the group last game session. Although familiar with D&D he had never heard of Tekumel before, or gamed with my group before. Took to it like a duck to water. So much for Tekumel being too difficult, or "artsy-fartsy." A few days before the game I sent him the link to Tekumel.com and told him to check out the site, see what the world was like, and "NOT TO WORRY ABOUT ABOUT PRONUNCIATION". He had a few questions about clans and how they worked. Wanted to know if he could choose which clan he belonged to, based on his character description, instead of rolling randomly. BTW, chose a low "dodgy" clan which was perfectly suited to the type of character he was playing. He gave the old hands in the group a run for their money. After about 40 minutes he was interacting with the game environment like an old hand at Tekumel. Offering and withholding  inducements whenever necessary, bullying and sucking up, and generally being an excellent example of someone from a poor part of town that was determined to enhance his clan's and his status at any reasonable cost. It really was like watching the Tekumel version of Goodfellas. I kind of wish I had set the game in Jakalla.
I really have to call BS on "strict-canonical" Tekumel. My game session went exactly as your description above. Any game setting details were answered by the other players or myself, the game was not stopped for the sake of minutiae, and it was non-stop "mayhem";)  
As you say we followed the game and had some of the best 6 hours of gaming that we've enjoyed in 30+ plus years of rolling dice together. The world has always been the backdrop for me, not the main focus. Of course I want to get the details right, but not to the point where they get in the way of the action.  This is why this thread is important to me as a DM. You help to explain what all the parts are, and we can choose what we like in order to build our own Tekumel. Does this make sense?
Thanks again Chirine, and those that don't care for this thread can ignore it, instead of sniping from the side lines!

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on September 13, 2016, 04:44:27 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;918900
This is why this thread is important to me as a DM. You help to explain what all the parts are, and we can choose what we like in order to build our own Tekumel. Does this make sense?
Thanks again Chirine, and those that don't care for this thread can ignore it, instead of sniping from the side lines!

Shemek

100%
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 13, 2016, 06:22:03 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;918895
I would have to guess that with more than 80 thousand views, a few other people have found it useful or at least interesting.
=

I would like to think so; I worry about being boring and tedious.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 13, 2016, 06:24:44 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;918896
And not all of them had secret Tekumel forum names. :rolleyes:

It's no secret who I am in real life: Jeff Berry, author of a few little things. I just go by 'chirine' as that's what Phil did and it's stuck over the years. Even old friends use it; I think that's because at the time, we had a few 'Jeffs' in local gaming.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 13, 2016, 06:38:19 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;918900
I had a new player join the group last game session. Although familiar with D&D he had never heard of Tekumel before, or gamed with my group before. Took to it like a duck to water. So much for Tekumel being too difficult, or "artsy-fartsy." A few days before the game I sent him the link to Tekumel.com and told him to check out the site, see what the world was like, and "NOT TO WORRY ABOUT ABOUT PRONUNCIATION". He had a few questions about clans and how they worked. Wanted to know if he could choose which clan he belonged to, based on his character description, instead of rolling randomly. BTW, chose a low "dodgy" clan which was perfectly suited to the type of character he was playing. He gave the old hands in the group a run for their money. After about 40 minutes he was interacting with the game environment like an old hand at Tekumel. Offering and withholding  inducements whenever necessary, bullying and sucking up, and generally being an excellent example of someone from a poor part of town that was determined to enhance his clan's and his status at any reasonable cost. It really was like watching the Tekumel version of Goodfellas. I kind of wish I had set the game in Jakalla.
I really have to call BS on "strict-canonical" Tekumel. My game session went exactly as your description above. Any game setting details were answered by the other players or myself, the game was not stopped for the sake of minutiae, and it was non-stop "mayhem";)  
As you say we followed the game and had some of the best 6 hours of gaming that we've enjoyed in 30+ plus years of rolling dice together. The world has always been the backdrop for me, not the main focus. Of course I want to get the details right, but not to the point where they get in the way of the action.  This is why this thread is important to me as a DM. You help to explain what all the parts are, and we can choose what we like in order to build our own Tekumel. Does this make sense?
Thanks again Chirine, and those that don't care for this thread can ignore it, instead of sniping from the side lines!

Shemek

You're very welcome! Stories like this do a lot to keep me going - and keep the Tekumel that I knew and loved for so many memorable game sessions with Phil alive.

Tekumel has always been, for me and the other members of the original group, a never-ending source of adventure and excitement. Phil was a superb story-teller, and knew his action-adventure / 'pulps' to a 'T'.

You're making perfect sense! As I've said before, all I can do is describe what we did - and if you can take anything away from it, for any kind of gaming that you do, then I'm very pleased that you find it useful. I'm baffled by the strict canonistas, but then I've lost count of the times I''ve been contacted by people who tell me that they wished that they'd met me before they'd looked at 'mainstream' Tekumel fandom: "You make Tekumel fun!". I still find that kind of heartbreaking, in a way.

By the same token, I find Greentongue's thread about EPT to be a very healthy sign! Active and open discussions like that are the lifeblood of gaming, I think, and a very good thing. If somebody has an issue with me personally, then they can talk to me personally; this is all about gaming, and not about me - or so I think, anyway. Speaking as an archivist and historian, all I can do is provide the data; how you use it is up to you...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 13, 2016, 06:39:34 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;918983
100%

Agreed!

(Did my message get through to you? I never know, given my wonky Internet connections...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 13, 2016, 12:00:17 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;918989
I would like to think so; I worry about being boring and tedious.


I wouldn't worry about that...!!! Thank you for indulging my questions. I worry about being too lazy. Instead of looking things up, just ask Uncle Jeff!!! I mean Uncle Chirine...!!!! Be well.

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron on September 13, 2016, 12:14:34 PM
Hi Chirine!

An off-hand comment from you a month or so ago led me to this thread. I've only read up to around page 75 so far, but I have about six pages of new notes for my campaigns now! I'm glad you're here on the RPG site (although I stopped reading it a good long while ago), and hope you will continue. I'm sure you'll shrug off any negative vibes.

Be well!
Baron Greystone
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: ArrozConLeche on September 13, 2016, 01:10:54 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;918900
Thanks again Chirine, and those that don't care for this thread can ignore it, instead of sniping from the side lines!

Shemek

Don't worry about the trolls jealous about the positive attention someone else is receiving. ;)

I don't game in Tekumel, but this thread has been a treasure trove in many respects, including game history. Back to lurking...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 13, 2016, 04:11:55 PM
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;919060
Don't worry about the trolls jealous about the positive attention someone else is receiving. ;)

I don't game in Tekumel, but this thread has been a treasure trove in many respects, including game history. Back to lurking...


:cool:

No worries. I guess some have got nothing better to do with their time than bug people who are minding their own business, and getting on with the purpose of the thread. It's just that particular idiot has made a few unwarranted disparaging remarks about a thread that he is not even really a part of. I guess Gronan is right about him. This thread is great even for non Tekumel related stuff. Besides, it's interesting to see how things were done back in the day by other groups, and by some of the creators of this hobby. Cheers!

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 13, 2016, 05:46:39 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;919042
I wouldn't worry about that...!!! Thank you for indulging my questions. I worry about being too lazy. Instead of looking things up, just ask Uncle Jeff!!! I mean Uncle Chirine...!!!! Be well.

H;0)


You're very welcome! Please do feel free to ask your questions, too; they are a lot of fun to answer, as I remember things that we did that have (usually!) some bearing on the subject.

'Uncle Chirine' was actually my nickname, in the local community; I'm a bit older then a lot of the people I know, and one friend referred to be as this at a party and it stuck like glue. I've been asked for advice on all sorts of things, over the years, and I am told that this is because of the varied and rich life I've led. Heck, it's what got me my five daughters, for that matter! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 13, 2016, 05:51:03 PM
Quote from: Baron;919047
Hi Chirine!

An off-hand comment from you a month or so ago led me to this thread. I've only read up to around page 75 so far, but I have about six pages of new notes for my campaigns now! I'm glad you're here on the RPG site (although I stopped reading it a good long while ago), and hope you will continue. I'm sure you'll shrug off any negative vibes.

Be well!
Baron Greystone

Thank you, and welcome aboard! There are  a lot of very interesting discussions going on, and I hope you'll have a look around the place; I'm just the booth over in the corner, as it were.

I'm not too worried about 'negative vibes' I've had to deal with a lot worse in gaming, over the decades, especially when I used to run the booth at shows. I just pretty much shrug, and go on about my business; I am here because I find the conversation fun and interesting, and not out of a sense of obligation. If people are not interested in what I might have to say, then they are certainly able to have their own discussions - and should!!!

I'm very glad to hear that you've gotten some useful ideas from this thread - it's what it's for, I think. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 13, 2016, 05:55:32 PM
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;919060
Don't worry about the trolls jealous about the positive attention someone else is receiving. ;)

I don't game in Tekumel, but this thread has been a treasure trove in many respects, including game history. Back to lurking...

I don't, but thank you for the kind words. As I've mentioned, I've had worse; sitting the booth meant that I had to smile sweetly when somebody kicked me in the balls, but that's not something I have to deal with any more.

More then anything, else, I'm a window into the past and our shared history. I was very lucky, in that I was there at a time when creativity and imagination were just starting to realize the potential of this new genre; I got my lessons from some pretty amazing people, I think.

Pick my brain, if you like; I spent a lot of money to save it, a while back, and you might as well get some use out of it... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 13, 2016, 06:04:59 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;919125
I'm not too worried about 'negative vibes' I've had to deal with a lot worse in gaming,

I been thinkin' nothing but good thoughts about that bridge for the last two days!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on September 14, 2016, 09:01:38 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;919129
I been thinkin' nothing but good thoughts about that bridge for the last two days!

Always with the negative waves, Moriarty. Always with the negative waves.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 14, 2016, 06:16:53 PM
That whole movie felt like it was taken from somebody's notes from a campaign using Mike Korns'  WWII 'miniatures'/'proto-RPG' rules.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on September 14, 2016, 10:28:03 PM
Okay you mentioned taxes. I know that, in theory, everything is subject to being taxed but how do they know what everything is? If you find 1000 kaitars in the lost tomb of Lord Autumn Bottom, can you get away with saying you found 500? Or nothing at all? I know you risk taking a long ride on a long pole but how would they find out? I know if you rolled a literal wagonload into town it would be hard to conceal but a small bag or some valuable jewelry could be carried in.
What about more personal items? If you snagged a snazzy sword, is it taxed on its value as property or only if you sell it? What about eyes and other magical/lost tech items?  If an items is seized by someone, excuse me I mean if you donate an item to them and they give you a nice honorarium is that taxed?

I am curious as to how be bureaucratic the bureaucracy actually is and how informed the OAL is on such things. And I have one player who is the classic hoarder of gold who would find parting with 2 kaitars out every 100 as akin to being reduced to poverty.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on September 14, 2016, 10:44:02 PM
Another question, if everyone on a clan farm is wiped out, could you buy it? Or claim it if it has been abandoned for a while? Do clans ever just bail on an area or city, if it just isnt't profitable for them?

And given how dangerous Tekumel is, how many farmers and what not, out away from towns, disappear or are eaten? I know that gives lots to do for us adventurers but I do feel sorry for the poor saps that get gobbled up or turned into egg incubators or are melted by some old tech devices. :(

Knowing what I (and a lot of others) was like as a kid, I know that if I found some old hole or there was an area that was off limits according to my elders, I would plunge right in asap like a dumbass, where I would end up as dinner. I figure there are probably lots of "Cause of Death - Tekumel" on people's death certificates.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 15, 2016, 05:25:35 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;919426
I figure there are probably lots of "Cause of Death - Tekumel" on people's death certificates.
Good point. Also that made me chuckle.

   "Tell me uncle, why are are all the filing cabinets the same size except for that one over there that takes up the entire wall from floor to ceiling? "

"Oh that? We file the death certificates alphabetically by cause of death. That's the "Te" cabinet."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 15, 2016, 06:40:53 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;919425
Okay you mentioned taxes. I know that, in theory, everything is subject to being taxed but how do they know what everything is? If you find 1000 kaitars in the lost tomb of Lord Autumn Bottom, can you get away with saying you found 500? Or nothing at all? I know you risk taking a long ride on a long pole but how would they find out? I know if you rolled a literal wagonload into town it would be hard to conceal but a small bag or some valuable jewelry could be carried in.
What about more personal items? If you snagged a snazzy sword, is it taxed on its value as property or only if you sell it? What about eyes and other magical/lost tech items?  If an items is seized by someone, excuse me I mean if you donate an item to them and they give you a nice honorarium is that taxed?

I am curious as to how be bureaucratic the bureaucracy actually is and how informed the OAL is on such things. And I have one player who is the classic hoarder of gold who would find parting with 2 kaitars out every 100 as akin to being reduced to poverty.


The Tsolyani tax laws are pretty simple: Property, of any kind, is not taxable; income, of any kind, is. If you found a steel sword, it's value is not taxable until you sell it. If you found a pile of kaitars, they are taxable; 'collector coins', like Engsvanyali ones, are not - until you sell them, then it's the value you got for them. Jewelry, same thing.

Which is why we sometimes left hoards of coins alone - first off, they are heavy and hard to carry, and secondly they are taxable.

As for reporting, small amounts - like maybe a couple of hundred or less - will get politely ignored, especially if you don't flash the money around. Small gifts to the tax people do help with this, of course. The biggest issue is actually your clan and temple; they can get big rewards for turning in tax evaders - your clan can get dunned for your taxes, remember - so they have every reason to turn you in if you have a lot of unreported income lying around the clan house. And it's also a case of the goose that lays the golden eggs; Imperial taxes are often remitted or repaid as payments to the clan, etc.

It's mostly about keeping the paperwork straight; money need not change hands. There's always a 'deduction'... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 15, 2016, 06:45:40 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;919426
Another question, if everyone on a clan farm is wiped out, could you buy it? Or claim it if it has been abandoned for a while? Do clans ever just bail on an area or city, if it just isnt't profitable for them?

And given how dangerous Tekumel is, how many farmers and what not, out away from towns, disappear or are eaten? I know that gives lots to do for us adventurers but I do feel sorry for the poor saps that get gobbled up or turned into egg incubators or are melted by some old tech devices. :(

Knowing what I (and a lot of others) was like as a kid, I know that if I found some old hole or there was an area that was off limits according to my elders, I would plunge right in asap like a dumbass, where I would end up as dinner. I figure there are probably lots of "Cause of Death - Tekumel" on people's death certificates.


Yes, to all of the above - the clans will be happy to unload an cursed/unprofitable property, and collect the cash. No sense throwing good kaitars after bad. Pay for a title search; you buy the property's obligations as well as the title.

This is why most people are very incurious; it's safer to let the professional adventurers handle the problem... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 17, 2016, 08:18:17 AM
Uncle,

Greetings. On your adventures did you ever encounter any pc or npc, who did not worship any deity? On the oppsite side of the spectrum, did you ever encounter any pc or npc that worshiped all the gods? How where these situations handled and how did it play out during the game? I know you have mentioned that sometimes people would leave offerings to other deities depending on the situation. Thanks.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 17, 2016, 08:46:08 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;920027
Uncle,

Greetings. On your adventures did you ever encounter any pc or npc, who did not worship any deity? On the oppsite side of the spectrum, did you ever encounter any pc or npc that worshiped all the gods? How where these situations handled and how did it play out during the game? I know you have mentioned that sometimes people would leave offerings to other deities depending on the situation. Thanks.

H:0)

Well, we never met any 'atheists', as we'd understand the word. Plenty of cynics, like the majority of the Undying Wizards, who seem to be 'aligned' or 'allied' to one of the gods, but don't 'worship' them. Again, it's a huge difference in education - the UW are aware that 'the Gods' are simply more advanced beings, unlike most of the population. On the other hand, there were also no 'pantheists', either. One worshipped one of the gods, more then anything else from clan and family traditions, but nobody that we ever met had multiple deities that they worshipped. It just didn't come up for us - except when the UWs would show up, and then we'd nod politely and get away from them as fast as possible as they were always a pain in the ass.

Having said that, one does leave offerings and make donations at other temples then one's own; we'd routinely make offerings across the Change-Stability difference to Avanthe, for example, despite being Vimuhla or Ksarul worshippers. Religion was a spectrum, not a series of non-cooperative sects like most real-world religions seem to be.

Does this help, any?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 17, 2016, 10:26:53 AM
Chirine,

Just wondering. During your travels on Tekumel did you ever encounter Hlyss outside of a maritime environment, say in the hinterlands of Tsolyanu, or in some remote corner of the Five Empires?
Also, did you ever make it Jannu, or Kilalammu? If so is there anything interesting about the culture or locals that you could share with us?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 17, 2016, 01:13:06 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;920036
Chirine,

Just wondering. During your travels on Tekumel did you ever encounter Hlyss outside of a maritime environment, say in the hinterlands of Tsolyanu, or in some remote corner of the Five Empires?
Also, did you ever make it Jannu, or Kilalammu? If so is there anything interesting about the culture or locals that you could share with us?

Shemek

Yes; Underworlds and the tubeway system - they were 'player-characters' looking for an adventure, same as us. And they were usually a very nasty surprise, as we were (If I may say so myself) pretty good at this adventuring lark. Of course, as they were also the best that their culture had to offer, they were a pretty nasty surprise for us, as they were usually pretty good at it as well. As might be expected, mayhem ensued.

Yes - The Hekellu-Sirsum micro-campaign was fought by us out this way. We fought our way out to Sirsum (Book V), and I'll have to go back and look at my notes and campaign logs; I have a sneaking suspicion that we have indeed been through there, on our way through our second adventure with Harchar (Book IV), but I'm going to have to look.

The locals are usually pretty decent folk, if you respect their customs and traditions. Lots of small villages up in the valleys. Lots of small clans who are usually feuding with each other. Very, very, very independently-minded, with no love of any kind of imposed central authority. About the only thing they agree on is fighting the Ssu when they need to, and keeping the humans in Mihallu - the old 'Engsvanyali province' - on their side of the lake. When Phil played this with us, the place felt like Sogdia, Bactria, and the Afghan tribes; all of which Phil knew from first hand, so it was very realistic. By the way, Nyssa's maid, Aliyah, is from Kilalammu; her name is a little in-joke, too, alluding to Phil's love of the "Dune" series. (And her handiness with knives, for which the local tribeswomen are famous. Of infamous, if you get on their bad side.) She's from the Clan of the Barren Peaks.

Basic information on the region is in the Sourcebook, of course, but I can also highly commend this site:

http://tekumel.skaran.net/tekumel/kilalammu.html (http://tekumel.skaran.net/tekumel/kilalammu.html)

This person was in contact with Phil for quite a while, and did his maps and information from his conversations with Phil. The site is a great example of what can be done with Tekumel - "Make Tekumel your own!", as Phil said - and I use it myself as a reference.

I'm sorry to be so vague - I sound like a travelogue, don't I? - so is there something more specific you want to know?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 17, 2016, 02:20:37 PM
Chirine.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;920060
Yes; Underworlds and the tubeway system - they were 'player-characters' looking for an adventure, same as us. And they were usually a very nasty surprise, as we were (If I may say so myself) pretty good at this adventuring lark. Of course, as they were also the best that their culture had to offer, they were a pretty nasty surprise for us, as they were usually pretty good at it as well. As might be expected, mayhem ensued.


Good to know. I seem to remember reading that the Hlyss could be found in all types of places, other than the ocean, but I couldn't remember if I was recalling it correctly. My players will not be too happy...:)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;920060
Yes - The Hekellu-Sirsum micro-campaign was fought by us out this way. We fought our way out to Sirsum (Book V), and I'll have to go back and look at my notes and campaign logs; I have a sneaking suspicion that we have indeed been through there, on our way through our second adventure with Harchar (Book IV), but I'm going to have to look.


Can't wait to learn more about this. We know so little about that part of Tekumel, other than what was in Flamesong, and any new information should be welcomed by players and GM's. Besides, Harchar's adventures are always good for a laugh or two.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;920060
The locals are usually pretty decent folk, if you respect their customs and traditions. Lots of small villages up in the valleys. Lots of small clans who are usually feuding with each other. Very, very, very independently-minded, with no love of any kind of imposed central authority. About the only thing they agree on is fighting the Ssu when they need to, and keeping the humans in Mihallu - the old 'Engsvanyali province' - on their side of the lake. When Phil played this with us, the place felt like Sogdia, Bactria, and the Afghan tribes; all of which Phil knew from first hand, so it was very realistic. By the way, Nyssa's maid, Aliyah, is from Kilalammu; her name is a little in-joke, too, alluding to Phil's love of the "Dune" series. (And her handiness with knives, for which the local tribeswomen are famous. Of infamous, if you get on their bad side.) She's from the Clan of the Barren Peaks.


That's great, this is exactly what I was after. Gives me a better feel for the area. So perhaps Phil had this mind when running the game:
 
"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains."

Quote from: chirine ba kal;920060
Basic information on the region is in the Sourcebook, of course, but I can also highly commend this site:

http://tekumel.skaran.net/tekumel/kilalammu.html (http://tekumel.skaran.net/tekumel/kilalammu.html)

This person was in contact with Phil for quite a while, and did his maps and information from his conversations with Phil. The site is a great example of what can be done with Tekumel - "Make Tekumel your own!", as Phil said - and I use it myself as a reference.


I know this site very well. Extremely well done maps which I have used quite a bit in my game, especially the areas bordering Pechano and Ssuyal.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;920060
I'm sorry to be so vague - I sound like a travelogue, don't I? - so is there something more specific you want to know?


Perfect, not at all vague for what I wanted to know. Travels with Chirine. This might be a good name for a blog site. Thanks again for the info.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 17, 2016, 03:32:54 PM
Chirine,

One more question. How did Phil handle character level advancement, or did he not use levels, in the D&D/EPT sense in his game? If he ignored the traditional concept of levels, which I seem to recall you saying he did, how then did he handle character skill development? Would Phil decide that Chirine has been in a heck of a lot of combat over the last few game sessions and, based upon a roll, that your weapon skills have improved to such a degree that you are now more effective in combat? Similarly, did Chirine acquire more/new spells as the campaign progressed, and if so how was this handled in the game? Were the players required to go and train as is the case in EPT or D&D?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 18, 2016, 01:58:56 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;920085
Chirine,

One more question. How did Phil handle character level advancement, or did he not use levels, in the D&D/EPT sense in his game? If he ignored the traditional concept of levels, which I seem to recall you saying he did, how then did he handle character skill development? Would Phil decide that Chirine has been in a heck of a lot of combat over the last few game sessions and, based upon a roll, that your weapon skills have improved to such a degree that you are now more effective in combat? Similarly, did Chirine acquire more/new spells as the campaign progressed, and if so how was this handled in the game? Were the players required to go and train as is the case in EPT or D&D?

Shemek


I think you're right; we did discuss this early on in this thread, but I'm not sure where. I can try and page back and look, if you like.

Phil didn't really worry about how our PCs advanced, once he felt that we were viable characters, able to survive in his world. This was about two years into our time as the original Thursday Night Group, as I recall; he had gotten much more into 'story-teller' mode then 'GM mode' by then, as he felt that he could trust us not to bust the place up and treat Tekumel with respect. His basic play style was to have all of us do the 'crunch' and 'book-keeping', as he was much more interested in the 'fluff' of his world-setting. 'The Rules' usually came out when we had to look at some question or point of order; we'd pretty much memorized EPT, by then. So, he'd hand out / confirm XP for the first couple of years, and then assumed that we'd do it - one would keep track of what one killed, and then 'award' oneself the relevant XP; once the totals were done, one would hand Phil the information and he'd usually confirm it - intellectual honesty was assumed to be the norm at that game table, and 'cheating' was just something that never happened - keep in mind that none of us we what would be called 'gamers', today; we were all F/SF fans, perhaps first and formost, and we just happened too be 'gaming' to explore the world. (See also Jon Peterson's "Playing At The World", and things like our costuming and such - we had a very different world-view and style, which quite a few of what have been termed the 'superfans' of Tekumel didn;t like or understand. We were very much outliers, waaaay off the 'mainstream' of gaming.)

So, Phil didn't really worry about The Rules; yes, we had stats sheets, and we were expected to have the numbers ready of Phil to use; he'd roll %D - we didn't say D100, in those days - and adjudicate the results according to the dice rolls. (This drove the visiting gamers simply mad, and made for some very unhappy visits as they got all cranky about this style of play.)

Once one had enough XP totted up on one's index card, one told Phil that one would like to 'level up' (I think that's how it's said, today) and then 'buy' skills or spells as one wished, 'spending' the accumulated points and crossing them off the card. One then noted down all of the new skills and abilities, and Phil would review the results and file the card back in the boxes. (One also kept a copy, of course.) And that was it, game mechanics wise. After a certain point, I don't think we even did that - our advancement was usually in the form of posts, positions, awards, fiefs, and titles; EPT only went up to '10th level', and anything after that was simply off the charts and Phil didn't worry about it. His play style was all about his word, telling storys, and having adventures - it was not about game mechanics.

In-game, we sometimes 'took leave', and 'went back to school' and took courses in skills and spells; the usual convention was that if a player wasn't going to be playing for a while, then they were off doing this and would have 'leveled up' during their absence. One could also hire tutors to do the same thing, and we'd do this in between adventures' we did not 'level up' during adventures / story arcs. So, yes, they'd 'go and train', but only when the player would not be at the table. If Gronan was off doing his MBA, then he'd come back to play with some new skills.

One of the things that I think I need to mention about all this was that we eight to ten people played with Phil every Thursday night, about four hours a night , 52 weeks a year, for over a dozen years. (No exceptions for holidays; Thanksgiving had a big dinner cooked by Mrs. Barker, and then we'd clean up and play for a while.) That's about 2,500 hours of game time, and Phil's adventures and plot lines would span literally years of real time. We had people drop in and out of the game sessions, and that's when the number-crunching would normally occur; we didn't worry about in in terms of game time, and 'going back to the temple academy' or 'going off on a course' happened a lot.

Does this help, any? 'Levelling up' was not a feature of Phil's game play' we advanced in world-setting terms, more then anything else, which is why it takes the Chief Herald so long to recite all my varied titles and offices... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on September 18, 2016, 02:47:16 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;920226
Religion was a spectrum, not a series of non-cooperative sects like most real-world religions seem to be.


A very enlightening sentence indeed.

----

Question time:

It is known that Tsolyanis can change religious affiliation. They might be raised as worshipers of Avanthe for instance, but later choose to switch to some other temple, as they mature, or discover the world beyond the walls of their clan-houses, or meet worshipers from some other exciting sect, marriage perhaps, etc.

This would then suggest that baptisms of adult Tsolyanis are not unheard of (after the candidate's clan has approved the switch, etc.).
Did Chirine ever participate or witness such ceremonies? Did the professor ever discussed such ceremonies with you or the rest of the players?

I assume here that switching from one deity to another is easier if the new deity belongs to the original deity's pantheon, Change or Stability.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 18, 2016, 07:35:13 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;920237
Question time:

It is known that Tsolyanis can change religious affiliation. They might be raised as worshipers of Avanthe for instance, but later choose to switch to some other temple, as they mature, or discover the world beyond the walls of their clan-houses, or meet worshipers from some other exciting sect, marriage perhaps, etc.

This would then suggest that baptisms of adult Tsolyanis are not unheard of (after the candidate's clan has approved the switch, etc.).
Did Chirine ever participate or witness such ceremonies? Did the professor ever discussed such ceremonies with you or the rest of the players?

I assume here that switching from one deity to another is easier if the new deity belongs to the original deity's pantheon, Change or Stability.

Yes, but it's pretty rare as there are all sorts of reasons to follow the traditions of family and clan. It does happen, and it's normally handled very politely and respectfully. One makes a gift to the temple one is 'leaving', and another to the temple that one is 'joining'; the appropriate paperwork with the Imperium is filled out, and that's pretty much it. One pretty much starts simply attending the new temple rituals, and it's also normal to attend 'basic classes' so one gets what information one needs to comport themselves in society. One also normally offers a gift to one's clan; it's polite to do so. Both temples have ceremonies, one for the 'departure' and one for the 'arrival'. One is expected to offer donations, of course.

No. We never saw this at Phil's, mostly because we were out adventuring in far corners of the world most of the time. We did hear about such events from time to time, but they were people that we didn't know. The exception was Princess Ma'in, but that was a 'forced' conversion with Tim Cox / Dutlor zapping her with an Eye - which got removed from the list before EPT was published - and as such caused a major scandal in polite society. The temples involved kinda just collectively rolled their eyes and got on with things.

Yes; also if the temples involved are of similar outlook - going from Avanthe to Dilinala and back is normal for those worshippers - and if it's between Gods and Cohorts. Belkhanu to Sarku (or the reverse), or Vimuhla to Karakan, etc. would be the usual, rather then anything 'radical'. Cross-alignment is less rare then going from one temple to a completely different one - Ksarul to Dra, for ezample. it does happen, but it's pretty rare from what we saw.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 18, 2016, 08:48:30 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;920226
I think you're right; we did discuss this early on in this thread, but I'm not sure where. I can try and page back and look, if you like.

Phil didn't really worry about how our PCs advanced, once he felt that we were viable characters, able to survive in his world. This was about two years into our time as the original Thursday Night Group, as I recall; he had gotten much more into 'story-teller' mode then 'GM mode' by then, as he felt that he could trust us not to bust the place up and treat Tekumel with respect. His basic play style was to have all of us do the 'crunch' and 'book-keeping', as he was much more interested in the 'fluff' of his world-setting. 'The Rules' usually came out when we had to look at some question or point of order; we'd pretty much memorized EPT, by then. So, he'd hand out / confirm XP for the first couple of years, and then assumed that we'd do it - one would keep track of what one killed, and then 'award' oneself the relevant XP; once the totals were done, one would hand Phil the information and he'd usually confirm it - intellectual honesty was assumed to be the norm at that game table, and 'cheating' was just something that never happened - keep in mind that none of us we what would be called 'gamers', today; we were all F/SF fans, perhaps first and formost, and we just happened too be 'gaming' to explore the world. (See also Jon Peterson's "Playing At The World", and things like our costuming and such - we had a very different world-view and style, which quite a few of what have been termed the 'superfans' of Tekumel didn;t like or understand. We were very much outliers, waaaay off the 'mainstream' of gaming.)

So, Phil didn't really worry about The Rules; yes, we had stats sheets, and we were expected to have the numbers ready of Phil to use; he'd roll %D - we didn't say D100, in those days - and adjudicate the results according to the dice rolls. (This drove the visiting gamers simply mad, and made for some very unhappy visits as they got all cranky about this style of play.)

Once one had enough XP totted up on one's index card, one told Phil that one would like to 'level up' (I think that's how it's said, today) and then 'buy' skills or spells as one wished, 'spending' the accumulated points and crossing them off the card. One then noted down all of the new skills and abilities, and Phil would review the results and file the card back in the boxes. (One also kept a copy, of course.) And that was it, game mechanics wise. After a certain point, I don't think we even did that - our advancement was usually in the form of posts, positions, awards, fiefs, and titles; EPT only went up to '10th level', and anything after that was simply off the charts and Phil didn't worry about it. His play style was all about his word, telling storys, and having adventures - it was not about game mechanics.

In-game, we sometimes 'took leave', and 'went back to school' and took courses in skills and spells; the usual convention was that if a player wasn't going to be playing for a while, then they were off doing this and would have 'leveled up' during their absence. One could also hire tutors to do the same thing, and we'd do this in between adventures' we did not 'level up' during adventures / story arcs. So, yes, they'd 'go and train', but only when the player would not be at the table. If Gronan was off doing his MBA, then he'd come back to play with some new skill
Does this help, any? 'Levelling up' was not a feature of Phil's game play' we advanced in world-setting terms, more then anything else, which is why it takes the Chief Herald so long to recite all my varied titles and offices... :)


Perfect. Thank you, again.:)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on September 19, 2016, 04:23:01 PM
Uncle, I have a question that came up lately, and well, while I have ideas, I'd hope you have something I haven't thought about:).

How would the clans proceed if someone got killed during friendly combat practice, but his parents refused to accept the shamtla, suspecting foul play?
And how would the answer change, if the presumably involuntary murderer was from a slightly lower clan;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 19, 2016, 06:22:25 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;920518
Uncle, I have a question that came up lately, and well, while I have ideas, I'd hope you have something I haven't thought about:).

How would the clans proceed if someone got killed during friendly combat practice, but his parents refused to accept the shamtla, suspecting foul play?
And how would the answer change, if the presumably involuntary murderer was from a slightly lower clan;)?

Oh! This is a very good question, and what our British cousins would call 'a very sticky wicket'.

First off, the possibility of getting killed in a practice bout is always there, so normally the guy who got killed would have to agree to the kind of weapons being used and how risky the practice bouts could be. If they did get hurt or killed, then it would be considered their problem, not the person doing the damage. There is no 'manslaughter' charge in the Tekumel lawbooks - it's either straight up murder or it's not. The parents saying that it was 'foul play' is basically accusing somebody of murder, and the clans involved would do everything possible to try and arbitrate the matter privately. They would both try very hard to keep the Imperium, as represented by the local government officials, out of the matter and settle 'out of court'. The clan of the person who killed the guy would be hugely insulted by the accusation, and may very well ask for shmatla of their own in return for the slight to their honor. The clan of the dead person would put a lot of pressure on the parents  to accept the payment, and not insult anybody. My guess is that if the parents persisted in saying that it was foul play, a neutral third party would be brought in by both clans to investigate the matter and render a judgement. This is one of those situations where the Ndalu Clan gets called in, as they are about as neutral as it gets.

Both clans would have a fit if the parents filed a lawsuit in the courts, as this would bring in the Imperials to investigate, and nobody wants the OAL or even the locals poking around in the odd corners of the clan houses. The Imperium would also likely ask the clans to pay for the investigation and the court hearing, too. The official verdict, I'd venture to say, would be the same one that British courts have delivered for years - if not centuries! - in identical circumstances of 'death by misadventure', and get everyone to pay up. (This is a part of 'case law that happens to be well-know to Groan and I, due to our time in the re-enactment movement.)

The relative status of the clans involved would not change the situation; if anything, the higher status clan would be more discomfited by any scandal such as this and more eager to settle, as they would want to appear to be acting nobly. The parents would have to really prove their case, that it really was foul play, and probably get into trouble with the clan if they didn't.

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on September 19, 2016, 06:40:07 PM
Uncle,

Just wondering if Harsan's "around the corner" spell is on any of the spell lists? I was looking, but I didn't find it. Thank you.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 19, 2016, 08:03:31 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;920085
Chirine,

One more question. How did Phil handle character level advancement, or did he not use levels, in the D&D/EPT sense in his game? If he ignored the traditional concept of levels, which I seem to recall you saying he did, how then did he handle character skill development? Would Phil decide that Chirine has been in a heck of a lot of combat over the last few game sessions and, based upon a roll, that your weapon skills have improved to such a degree that you are now more effective in combat? Similarly, did Chirine acquire more/new spells as the campaign progressed, and if so how was this handled in the game? Were the players required to go and train as is the case in EPT or D&D?

Shemek

At first it was quite important when Phil used the "barbarian on a boat" entrance; you didn't dare leave the Foreigner's Quarters alone before 3rd level, and you couldn't be a citizen till 6th level.

Later on after he started having new players start as citizens it became less important.  By the time of the Eastern Front campaign when my character was a General and our legion was marching to Sunraya (there's a song in there) we stopped tracking XP and level altogether, at least for the military characters; what "level" I was was far less important than behaving like a General, obeying orders, and acting nobly.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 19, 2016, 08:07:47 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;920237
A very enlightening sentence indeed.

----

Question time:

It is known that Tsolyanis can change religious affiliation. They might be raised as worshipers of Avanthe for instance, but later choose to switch to some other temple, as they mature, or discover the world beyond the walls of their clan-houses, or meet worshipers from some other exciting sect, marriage perhaps, etc.

This would then suggest that baptisms of adult Tsolyanis are not unheard of (after the candidate's clan has approved the switch, etc.).
Did Chirine ever participate or witness such ceremonies? Did the professor ever discussed such ceremonies with you or the rest of the players?

I assume here that switching from one deity to another is easier if the new deity belongs to the original deity's pantheon, Change or Stability.

When I changed over to the Temple of Karakan, there was very little folderol.  The Imperial office said something like "This is fitting."  At the time I was playing with Mirusiya's "New Men" and just didn't fit in.  We started in 1974 with most PCs worshipping Dlamelish because of course a bunch of horny 19 year olds are going to worship the goddess of tits and wine.

But several years later it just didn't fit for my character any more.  Kadarsha used to twit me about Korunme being a "nicely handsome good guy."  But to me the difference was that my character was much more concerned about being a good soldier and following the precepts of "Noble Action" than he was interested in being PERCEIVED as a good soldier and PERCEIVED as following the precepts of "Noble Action."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 20, 2016, 05:39:42 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;920537
Uncle,

Just wondering if Harsan's "around the corner" spell is on any of the spell lists? I was looking, but I didn't find it. Thank you.

H:0)


It is, but I don't remember what it's called. Phil was writing "Man of Gold" and S&G at the same time, and I recall looking myself in the spall lists for this. I think it's in the Thumis section, and it may be a Temple-specific spell. I seem to recall that it was one of the mid-level 'gerneric' spells, so you may have to read all the levels of each spell as there are variants of each spell at the different levels. It's a huge list, and you really have to look at the fine print.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 20, 2016, 05:41:19 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;920550
At first it was quite important when Phil used the "barbarian on a boat" entrance; you didn't dare leave the Foreigner's Quarters alone before 3rd level, and you couldn't be a citizen till 6th level.

Later on after he started having new players start as citizens it became less important.  By the time of the Eastern Front campaign when my character was a General and our legion was marching to Sunraya (there's a song in there) we stopped tracking XP and level altogether, at least for the military characters; what "level" I was was far less important than behaving like a General, obeying orders, and acting nobly.

What he said; remember that he started with Phil in '74, and I started with Phil in '76. Phil had modified his play style a bit by the time I got there, and he continued to do so for quite a while afterwards.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 20, 2016, 05:42:31 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;920551
When I changed over to the Temple of Karakan, there was very little folderol.  The Imperial office said something like "This is fitting."  At the time I was playing with Mirusiya's "New Men" and just didn't fit in.  We started in 1974 with most PCs worshipping Dlamelish because of course a bunch of horny 19 year olds are going to worship the goddess of tits and wine.

But several years later it just didn't fit for my character any more.  Kadarsha used to twit me about Korunme being a "nicely handsome good guy."  But to me the difference was that my character was much more concerned about being a good soldier and following the precepts of "Noble Action" than he was interested in being PERCEIVED as a good soldier and PERCEIVED as following the precepts of "Noble Action."

Yes, very much so, you went from being 'one of the boys' (as it were) to being very much a part of the culture; I don't think they ever did, really...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on September 21, 2016, 03:09:30 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;920536
Oh! This is a very good question, and what our British cousins would call 'a very sticky wicket'.

First off, the possibility of getting killed in a practice bout is always there, so normally the guy who got killed would have to agree to the kind of weapons being used and how risky the practice bouts could be. If they did get hurt or killed, then it would be considered their problem, not the person doing the damage. There is no 'manslaughter' charge in the Tekumel lawbooks - it's either straight up murder or it's not. The parents saying that it was 'foul play' is basically accusing somebody of murder, and the clans involved would do everything possible to try and arbitrate the matter privately. They would both try very hard to keep the Imperium, as represented by the local government officials, out of the matter and settle 'out of court'. The clan of the person who killed the guy would be hugely insulted by the accusation, and may very well ask for shmatla of their own in return for the slight to their honor. The clan of the dead person would put a lot of pressure on the parents  to accept the payment, and not insult anybody. My guess is that if the parents persisted in saying that it was foul play, a neutral third party would be brought in by both clans to investigate the matter and render a judgement. This is one of those situations where the Ndalu Clan gets called in, as they are about as neutral as it gets.

Both clans would have a fit if the parents filed a lawsuit in the courts, as this would bring in the Imperials to investigate, and nobody wants the OAL or even the locals poking around in the odd corners of the clan houses. The Imperium would also likely ask the clans to pay for the investigation and the court hearing, too. The official verdict, I'd venture to say, would be the same one that British courts have delivered for years - if not centuries! - in identical circumstances of 'death by misadventure', and get everyone to pay up. (This is a part of 'case law that happens to be well-know to Groan and I, due to our time in the re-enactment movement.)

The relative status of the clans involved would not change the situation; if anything, the higher status clan would be more discomfited by any scandal such as this and more eager to settle, as they would want to appear to be acting nobly. The parents would have to really prove their case, that it really was foul play, and probably get into trouble with the clan if they didn't.

Does this help?

Thank you, Uncle! If nothing else, the idea of inviting the assassins as arbiters because they're impartial, has never occurred to me before:D!
Admittedly, the basis of the accusation is kinda blurry. I feel I must provide some context here.

See, the boy's uncle had sent a note "don't let the boy practice with Favreng hi vuMakkochaqu", sealed with his personal seal. It arrived shortly before the practice, but Cheggucal hi Nakkolel argued that much as he respects his uncle, cancelling the scheduled practice bout, which was to be held under not really dangerous rules, might well be seen as an affront.
The problem is, Favreng slipped during a grapple, when he was holding Cheggucal's head, and the latter's neck broke. The family immediately suspected foul play and told the clan elders not to accept the Shamtla.
However, they went to see the uncle and enquire, he was found dead from overdose of Zu'ur. This is in itself troubling, as said person has been involved in breaking not one, but two rings of smugglers. All evidence spoke of him hating the drug!
It might be relevant that after the incident, another note with the same content and seal from the late uncle arrived as well. The street urchin who delivered it stated that he has been delayed by a gang that had a score against him, calculations show it has been sent almost at the same time as the first note;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 21, 2016, 06:49:52 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;920824
Thank you, Uncle! If nothing else, the idea of inviting the assassins as arbiters because they're impartial, has never occurred to me before:D!
Admittedly, the basis of the accusation is kinda blurry. I feel I must provide some context here.

See, the boy's uncle had sent a note "don't let the boy practice with Favreng hi vuMakkochaqu", sealed with his personal seal. It arrived shortly before the practice, but Cheggucal hi Nakkolel argued that much as he respects his uncle, cancelling the scheduled practice bout, which was to be held under not really dangerous rules, might well be seen as an affront.
The problem is, Favreng slipped during a grapple, when he was holding Cheggucal's head, and the latter's neck broke. The family immediately suspected foul play and told the clan elders not to accept the Shamtla.
However, they went to see the uncle and enquire, he was found dead from overdose of Zu'ur. This is in itself troubling, as said person has been involved in breaking not one, but two rings of smugglers. All evidence spoke of him hating the drug!
It might be relevant that after the incident, another note with the same content and seal from the late uncle arrived as well. The street urchin who delivered it stated that he has been delayed by a gang that had a score against him, calculations show it has been sent almost at the same time as the first note;).


Uh-oh. If there's Zu'ur involved, you're going to have to report this to the Imperium; this is a very, very serious problem. I'd still run the 'private' investigation, to show the Imperium that I was doing something about this, but things have taken a very, very serious turn. Expect a visit from the OAL, in the very near future...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on September 21, 2016, 04:13:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;920842
Uh-oh. If there's Zu'ur involved, you're going to have to report this to the Imperium; this is a very, very serious problem. I'd still run the 'private' investigation, to show the Imperium that I was doing something about this, but things have taken a very, very serious turn. Expect a visit from the OAL, in the very near future...
But Uncle, surely that's only if you report it as Zuur instead of a simple overdose on another substance, or cardiac arrest. Right?
Besides, he didn't die in his clan's property, but in an caravansarai, so plausible deniability would exist.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 21, 2016, 08:23:21 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;920910
But Uncle, surely that's only if you report it as Zuur instead of a simple overdose on another substance, or cardiac arrest. Right?
Besides, he didn't die in his clan's property, but in an caravansarai, so plausible deniability would exist.

If you're sure you can get away with it, okay.  But if the OAL even THINKS you lied, they will invent whole new ways of slow death by torture just to try them out on you.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on September 22, 2016, 06:02:15 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;920949
If you're sure you can get away with it, okay.  But if the OAL even THINKS you lied, they will invent whole new ways of slow death by torture just to try them out on you.

Point taken. But still, what does his death have to do with the clan?
We're very sorry he slipped away to indulge in this vice, too bad his death prevents him being questioned, but there's nobody else who does that here, and can we talk about the fund for retired officials we mentioned we're planning to set up?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 22, 2016, 05:33:59 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;921014
Point taken. But still, what does his death have to do with the clan?
We're very sorry he slipped away to indulge in this vice, too bad his death prevents him being questioned, but there's nobody else who does that here, and can we talk about the fund for retired officials we mentioned we're planning to set up?

Oh, ho!!! Another kettle of fish entirely, and an exceedingly juicy scandal that all parties concerned will want to deal with very, very quietly!!!

As Mr. Laurel used to say to Mr. Hardy, "Here's another fine mess you've gotten us into." Mayhem will ensue, I can tell you!!!

Wonderful!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on September 23, 2016, 04:04:56 AM
I hate to be pedantic but wasn't it the other way around?

Stan Laurel (the thin one) was always being berated for getting things wrong and causing the mess.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 23, 2016, 04:16:55 AM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;921173
I hate to be pedantic but wasn't it the other way around?

Stan Laurel (the thin one) was always being berated for getting things wrong and causing the mess.
It was the other way round.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 23, 2016, 06:45:20 AM
You are both quite correct, which will teach me to post in a hurry and distracted; I had guests over last night, gamers who are interested in my running a Tekumel campaign for them, and I was quite distracted. I'm also trying to handle the preparations for the Dave Arneson Day event at the FLGS, where I'll be on display and answering questions about Dave and the early days of gaming.

Sorry about that!

Last night was quite fun; I talked to the group for a very little bit about things, they took The Tour, we had a nice little buffet dinner, and then we watched one of the movies on my 'Tekumel movies' list: "Thief of Baghdad" - 1924, with Douglas Fairbanks, Sr. in the title role. A very good time was had by all, and they'll be back for "Thief of Baghdad" - 1940, next time.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on September 23, 2016, 06:46:19 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;921086
Oh, ho!!! Another kettle of fish entirely, and an exceedingly juicy scandal that all parties concerned will want to deal with very, very quietly!!!

As Mr. Laurel used to say to Mr. Hardy, "Here's another fine mess you've gotten us into." Mayhem will ensue, I can tell you!!!

Wonderful!!! :)

 Yeah, I suspect at some point in resolving said mess,adventurers shall be needed;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;921182
You are both quite correct, which will teach me to post in a hurry and distracted; I had guests over last night, gamers who are interested in my running a Tekumel campaign for them, and I was quite distracted. I'm also trying to handle the preparations for the Dave Arneson Day event at the FLGS, where I'll be on display and answering questions about Dave and the early days of gaming.

Sorry about that!

Last night was quite fun; I talked to the group for a very little bit about things, they took The Tour, we had a nice little buffet dinner, and then we watched one of the movies on my 'Tekumel movies' list: "Thief of Baghdad" - 1924, with Douglas Fairbanks, Sr. in the title role. A very good time was had by all, and they'll be back for "Thief of Baghdad" - 1940, next time.
Glad you had a great time, Uncle! And I'm also glad you have found people that would appreciate your style, I just knew it was bound to happen.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on September 23, 2016, 06:57:33 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;921183
Yeah, I suspect at some point in resolving said mess,adventurers shall be needed;).


Quote from: chirine ba kal;921182
You are both quite correct, which will teach me to post in a hurry and distracted; I had guests over last night, gamers who are interested in my running a Tekumel campaign for them, and I was quite distracted. I'm also trying to handle the preparations for the Dave Arneson Day event at the FLGS, where I'll be on display and answering questions about Dave and the early days of gaming.

Sorry about that!

Last night was quite fun; I talked to the group for a very little bit about things, they took The Tour, we had a nice little buffet dinner, and then we watched one of the movies on my 'Tekumel movies' list: "Thief of Baghdad" - 1924, with Douglas Fairbanks, Sr. in the title role. A very good time was had by all, and they'll be back for "Thief of Baghdad" - 1940, next time.

Glad you had a great time, Uncle! And I'm also glad you have found people that would appreciate your style, I just knew it was bound to happen.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 24, 2016, 05:46:29 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;921183
Yeah, I suspect at some point in resolving said mess,adventurers shall be needed;).


Glad you had a great time, Uncle! And I'm also glad you have found people that would appreciate your style, I just knew it was bound to happen.

Oh, yes, very much so; this is the kind of complicated situation that Phil loved to pose, and we'd have to deal with it. Some of his best nights came from these situations.

It's been pretty busy around here, lately. I'm getting interest from several groups of people. One is interested in a Ye Olde Style Tekumel campaign. the other in a Ye Olde Style Barsoom campaign. Games will be infrequent, due to people's very busy schedules, but that's fine by me.

It's going to be a very interesting mix; both groups have very experienced gamers and complete novices. (For one person, this will be her first time gaming at all.) It'll be nice to have the game room full of friends, again, instead of the vaporware merchants we've been seeing for far too long.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 24, 2016, 09:38:33 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;921454
Oh, yes, very much so; this is the kind of complicated situation that Phil loved to pose, and we'd have to deal with it. Some of his best nights came from these situations.

It's been pretty busy around here, lately. I'm getting interest from several groups of people. One is interested in a Ye Olde Style Tekumel campaign. the other in a Ye Olde Style Barsoom campaign. Games will be infrequent, due to people's very busy schedules, but that's fine by me.

It's going to be a very interesting mix; both groups have very experienced gamers and complete novices. (For one person, this will be her first time gaming at all.) It'll be nice to have the game room full of friends, again, instead of the vaporware merchants we've been seeing for far too long.


This is great news. Hopefully you'll keep us updated on the campaign details either here or on your blog. Too bad you couldn't get a big dog and train him to sniff out and attack all "vapourware merchants" on sight.:D
 
Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 24, 2016, 12:10:56 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;921474
This is great news. Hopefully you'll keep us updated on the campaign details either here or on your blog. Too bad you couldn't get a big dog and train him to sniff out and attack all "vapourware merchants" on sight.:D
 
Shemek

I can do updates and accounts either way; I'm concerned that they'd be too boring for people. And, I don't seem to game the same way most folks do, so I'd also be concerned about being irrelevant for gamers. We'll see, I guess.

The Tekumel group will choose how they want to start off - the classic 'boat people' introduction or the 'start in the society' gambit. Or a mixture of both, maybe; I did a mixture for the old game group, and that worked well for the time we had (2002 - 2014) playing. I think the rules set that they picked was original EPT; I'm leaving it up to them, but it would be handy as I have half a dozen copies and could 'issue' everybody their own copy for their use. The Barsoom group will have to make the same decision about rules, but they'll be starting out 'in the setting' as a band of mercenaries for hire.

The Missus would love a big dog - Giant Schnauzer, for choice - but we took the easy route and simply don't let anyone in the door anymore unless we've interviewed them in advance in an outside venue. Then the Missus, Queen of the Internet, does the background check on them. Gamers and fans in general usually pass the barriers, but anyone working for or connected with a game company (of any kind)  automatically fails due to the antics of several people who fall into this category. It does help us a lot that the Tekumel Foundation has threatened such people in the industry with "severe consequences" if they even talk to me, so I just quote that to people and it works like insect repellent.

What I think surprises people is that we've learned the hard way that we have to do this. These antics seem to be part and parcel of a certain part of today's hobby and industry, sorry to say - my favorite is the guy from A Very Big Video Game Company who blandly assured me that his latest attempt at fraud was "simply standard business practice in the video game industry". (The lawyer enjoyed letting him have it, right between the eyes.) My other favorite was the guy from A Very Small Game Company who offered me all-expense-paid trips to Gary Con and North Texas RPG Con  in return for my turning over my blog and forum threads for him for editing. Without asking if I was interested in going to conventions, either. (The lawyer liked him, too; it's not everyday that the defendant e-mails the plaintiff the evidence and makes the lawyer's job so much easier.)

So, unless we know you and like you, you don't get in the door. The vast majority of people have no trouble getting to see the basement, but some folks just can't seem to 'get' the concept that I am not a public utility.



Let's roll some dice!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on September 24, 2016, 05:28:02 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;920030
Well, we never met any 'atheists', as we'd understand the word. Plenty of cynics, like the majority of the Undying Wizards, who seem to be 'aligned' or 'allied' to one of the gods, but don't 'worship' them. Again, it's a huge difference in education - the UW are aware that 'the Gods' are simply more advanced beings, unlike most of the population. On the other hand, there were also no 'pantheists', either. One worshipped one of the gods, more then anything else from clan and family traditions, but nobody that we ever met had multiple deities that they worshipped. It just didn't come up for us - except when the UWs would show up, and then we'd nod politely and get away from them as fast as possible as they were always a pain in the ass.

Having said that, one does leave offerings and make donations at other temples then one's own; we'd routinely make offerings across the Change-Stability difference to Avanthe, for example, despite being Vimuhla or Ksarul worshippers. Religion was a spectrum, not a series of non-cooperative sects like most real-world religions seem to be.

Does this help, any?

Could people change temple? Obviously more difficult if you've learnt any relevant spells.

EDIT: Oops, I see you answered this later on...carry on, don't mind me
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 24, 2016, 08:41:26 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));921521
Could people change temple? Obviously more difficult if you've learnt any relevant spells.

EDIT: Oops, I see you answered this later on...carry on, don't mind me

No problem; it's what I'm here for. :)

Still a good question, though. Generally, people who do this are pretty low level, and usually don't have any really nifty secrets or high level spells so it's usually not a big problem. (High-ranking people can expect a suggestion that they have a Mind Bar imposed by the temple that they are leaving, which can be an interesting plot point as well as a powerful inducement to not change temples.) I think all of this may a factor in why Phil had (in S&G; EPT is a lot more generic) 'universal' spells that every sorcerer probably knows, 'generic' spells that most sorcerers have access to, and 'temple' spells that are unique to a particular temple.

I'm an example of the difference between EPT and S&G; I know 'The Grey Hand', which is available to anybody of high enough level in EPT, and is a temple-specific (Gruganu, I think) one in S&G. Phil hand-waved my having this spell away by saying that you do get 'renegade' sorcerers who will sell their information and skills to the highest bidders, which got a reaction from one of the other people at the table of "Ah, player-characters then, eh Phil?" Mayhem ensued, as you might have expected. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 24, 2016, 11:17:34 PM
Could the clan competency be mapped with venn diagrams?

Say the Red Axe is a clan that focuses on wood harvesting.
Are lineages sub-skills like carving, furniture making, building lumber, charcoal maker and other things wood related?
Would they have accountants, warehousing and logistic or would there be other clans that partnered for that?

How about the Blue Palm (Avanthe) that grow trees of various types for fruits and nuts.
Would the Red Axe (Vimuhla) work with them for sustainable forestry or would they be philosophically opposed to each other?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 25, 2016, 07:41:48 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;921560
Could the clan competency be mapped with venn diagrams?

Say the Red Axe is a clan that focuses on wood harvesting.
Are lineages sub-skills like carving, furniture making, building lumber, charcoal maker and other things wood related?
Would they have accountants, warehousing and logistic or would there be other clans that partnered for that?

How about the Blue Palm (Avanthe) that grow trees of various types for fruits and nuts.
Would the Red Axe (Vimuhla) work with them for sustainable forestry or would they be philosophically opposed to each other?
=

Yes, I think so too. It'd make it a lot easier to show what a clan is and what it does.

Yes; a clan will have a number of these 'specialists' in-house, to do the basics. Anything more advanced will be sent out to an allied clan for their more specialist treatments. If my clan-cousin the cabinet-maker doesn't think he can do a job for me, he'll contact his friend next door in the clan that's known for their cabinet-makers. He'll superintend the project for me, on behalf of our clan, but the actual woodwork will be done by the friends.

Yes. The 'alignment barrier' in Phil's games were pretty loose; the clans are very practical organizations, and this kind of cooperation is very common.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 25, 2016, 08:39:30 PM
Someone, on another thread on this forum, posted that part of the problem with "selling" Tekumel to a wider audience was that social interaction between classes and clans was so alien to the Western experience, that it often turned off prospective players (paraphrasing one of his arguments). He specifically referenced the relationship with Highborn and Lowborn persons. One of the things he mentioned was that, essentially a Highborn person could do whatever they wanted to someone "beneath" them, and so long as restitution was offered they could always get  away with it.  Although I realize that strict adherence to "one's place" is the norm, and that one "knows their place" in Tsolyani society, and money talks, and all that, I still found it kind of hard to accept that this would be common every day behaviour: to get beaten up or killed because a person of lower status addressed a person of higher status (the example used). A Vriddi may be top dog in Fasiltum, but if one of their clansmen  goes around continuously stepping on, and beating up everyone beneath them they're going to eventually stir up a hornet's nest and probably get a knife in their back. I'm not so sure that this would lead to a viable long term game.
This got me wondering. During the time that you played in Phil's game did this come up very often; i.e., were people of higher social class continuously bullying and kicking those lower on the social totem pole? How important (from 1 to 10 with 10 being the most :) ) was social etiquette in the game? Was this relationship maintained even amongst party members?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 25, 2016, 09:20:51 PM
Bullying a lower status person would be ignoble.  The clan would stop it because it makes them look bad.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on September 26, 2016, 05:01:01 AM
This social status problem is a mystery to me. As an older gamer from the UK (roughly contemporary with Chirine) I have very little difficulty in understanding how this works as it's very much the norm in class-ridden British society prior to the Great War. Even up till the Fifties when I was born there was very much a social stratification of the population. Having been married to a Californian and lived in the US for a number of years I can see that the social structure of the US is very much a determinant in people not understanding how this sort of thing works. The insularity of most Americans works against them when it comes to understanding a lot of things like very different social structures that are outside their normal frame of reference. People that travel outside their cultural norm are much more likely to have some experience of different situations that allows them to see things in a different way.

A recent comment elsewhere about an issue with Chinese tourists in America brings this home. The Chinese government had a program some years  ago that tried to bring an understanding of how to be a tourist to the people likely to be travelling overseas. It doesn't seem to have reached some people found as tourists in the US nowadays.

When I first went overseas to work I took the trouble to read up on social and cultural norms for the country I was travelling to to make sure I didn't fall foul of local laws or make any social faux pas's. It paid off I only got locked up in jail once.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 26, 2016, 06:48:20 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;921737
Someone, on another thread on this forum, posted that part of the problem with "selling" Tekumel to a wider audience was that social interaction between classes and clans was so alien to the Western experience, that it often turned off prospective players (paraphrasing one of his arguments). He specifically referenced the relationship with Highborn and Lowborn persons. One of the things he mentioned was that, essentially a Highborn person could do whatever they wanted to someone "beneath" them, and so long as restitution was offered they could always get  away with it.  Although I realize that strict adherence to "one's place" is the norm, and that one "knows their place" in Tsolyani society, and money talks, and all that, I still found it kind of hard to accept that this would be common every day behaviour: to get beaten up or killed because a person of lower status addressed a person of higher status (the example used). A Vriddi may be top dog in Fasiltum, but if one of their clansmen  goes around continuously stepping on, and beating up everyone beneath them they're going to eventually stir up a hornet's nest and probably get a knife in their back. I'm not so sure that this would lead to a viable long term game.
This got me wondering. During the time that you played in Phil's game did this come up very often; i.e., were people of higher social class continuously bullying and kicking those lower on the social totem pole? How important (from 1 to 10 with 10 being the most :) ) was social etiquette in the game? Was this relationship maintained even amongst party members?

Shemek


Interesting; Gary said the same thing to Phil back in '74, and had Phil change the 'Stability/Change' thing to 'Good /Evil', as Gary didn't think that gamers would be able to understand the nuances of the former - too many shades of grey - and would be more comfortable with the simpler black and white divisions of the latter.

The kind of thing that you're describing - I haven't seen the particular post, sorry - where a higher person can bully a lower person is the kind of simplistic thing that people seem to like. The concept that a higher person would not do this, and take advantage of their social position, seems to be very difficult for gamers - American gamers, in particular - to grasp. It's the good guys vs. bad guys concept, and a very common stereotype that's easy to play and easy to comprehend. What I've found very interesting, over the decades I've been doing this, is that non-American gamers don't seem to have this issue; see the previous post, for example. I have also not had this issue in my own game groups, but then the gamers I normally play with have a different viewpoint then most. See also Gronan's comments on learning this in Phil's campaign.

As for your questions:

No. It was not 'noble action', and was considered rude and unsophisticated. People who did it, like player-characters in the Monday group, faced all sorts of social sanctions for doing it. We learned not to in short order, and did very well as a result.

Maybe a four or five; like the supposed use of languages, it didn't figure in play except where it was needed in the course of a particular game session. Once we'd learned the ropes, as it were, it was assumed that we were being polite.

No. In the culture, once people establish their friendship, they are normally more 'informal'. Same thing inside the family circle, as well. See also Chirine's relationship with Vrisa; he's a relative nobody, and she's royalty. In a normal social situation, they'd never really interact, but because they are friends they are very informal with each other. There's also the facet of their relationship that she's his hired mercenary, of course. Socially, she usually stayed in the mercenary role, and used her vastly higher social status when it helped the two of them out, like in the Nyemsel Isles.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 26, 2016, 02:28:21 PM
Based on what I've seen in gaming since I hit the University of Minnesota in 1973, a significant number of American players want to hit "high level" specifically so that they CAN bully the peasants.

As Bill Hoyt says, "Don't play with psychopaths."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 26, 2016, 02:50:41 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;921872
Based on what I've seen in gaming since I hit the University of Minnesota in 1973, a significant number of American players want to hit "high level" specifically so that they CAN bully the peasants.

As Bill Hoyt says, "Don't play with psychopaths."

Same here, on reflection. I thought about this (plenty of time for reflection, as I'm home with a very sick Missus, doing massive amounts of clean-up; it's been a very bad day, starting at six a.m.) and I think I have to agree with you. Maybe it's a cultural thing? Looking back on it, we didn't have this issue with the Aussies, Europeans, and UK people that we talked to; it seems to be US players who seem to have the big issues with clans and social conduct. We learned very early on from Phil's time in South Asia, I think, and it made a huge difference in how we integrated into his world setting. We were all pretty successful at this; the Monday group was not, and it showed.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 26, 2016, 06:44:46 PM
When playing to an American audience, isn't that kind of required?
Are we back to the need to study in detail before we can play?

On a completely separate note. Can lineages be across clans?
Are they ever more important than the clan they are members of?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 26, 2016, 07:08:56 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;921922
When playing to an American audience, isn't that kind of required?
Are we back to the need to study in detail before we can play?

On a completely separate note. Can lineages be across clans?
Are they ever more important than the clan they are members of?
=

Well, I don't think so, myself; I think it's more a matter of play style in a group. The Monday guys, and most of the gamers I saw in action over the years, really liked this kind of thing and it was a regular part of their games. In EPT, this sort of thing is not (as I recall) expressly talked about or forbidden; our group learned it from the way Phil play-style with our group, so anything Gronan or I might say about it may very well be 'non-canon' unless Phil commented on it on-line in the Blue Room. If a group wanted to play 'kick-the-peasant' as part of their play style, that's fine by me. I don't play that way, in any of the world-settings that I game in, and that's my choice of play style. I choose not to play in that kind of environment, which was what led to Phil's original group splitting in the first place.

I still don't think one needs to study in detail before one can play; I still think that a copy of EPT and some imagination will do just fine. I should note that I feel that way about all the rules and world-settings I've played in, from Ancients to Science-fiction. I still think it helps facilitate the game if one knows something about the genre one wants to play in, though, as it might save one from later 'buyer remorse'.

Questions...

Yes. it's pretty common, actually.

No; the clan is more important. The only exception to this is the 'Imperial' lineage of the Tlakotani, which is more important then the rest of the clan - a lot of whom are peasant farmers around Bey Su, which can be a little unnerving. The Vriddi also have something similar, where to be a Vriddi of the Vriddi is to be of a higher status; this is only inside the clan, though, and goes back to their being the Ebbridda lineage of the Dragon Lords. Non-Vriddi are usually a little more formal and polite to such - we humor them, really.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 26, 2016, 09:55:14 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;921922
When playing to an American audience, isn't that kind of required?
Are we back to the need to study in detail before we can play?



Not really.  "Don't be a dick" is easy to teach.  Nobles of a high clan beating up peasants is being a dick, just like knights beating up serfs is being a dick.  Some people like to play being a dick.  I don't.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 26, 2016, 09:58:38 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;921950
Not really.  "Don't be a dick" is easy to teach.  Nobles of a high clan beating up peasants is being a dick, just like knights beating up serfs is being a dick.  Some people like to play being a dick.  I don't.

What you said. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 27, 2016, 07:04:03 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;921950
Not really.  "Don't be a dick" is easy to teach.  Nobles of a high clan beating up peasants is being a dick, just like knights beating up serfs is being a dick.  Some people like to play being a dick.  I don't.

With the original presentation of Good & Evil, wouldn't that be expected from "Evil"?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 27, 2016, 11:34:29 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;921745
Bullying a lower status person would be ignoble.  The clan would stop it because it makes them look bad.


This is kind of how I feel about it, but the same attitude also prevails in the games that I've run in other campaign settings. As I tell my players they can do whatever they like in the game, I won't mandate a particular behavioural pattern, but  there are always repercussions, both bad and good. This is why I never bought the notion of the absolutely rigid and inflexible social strata for Tekumel. You and Chirine are prime examples that this is B.S. Detractors of, and those reluctant to play in Tekumel often point to this, along with a perceived dogmatic requirement that one must be fluent in the background minutiae in order to successfully "play Tekumel,"  or even start a game. Why should such a developed background setting be so inflexible that it would take an anthropologist or linguist to run it, when this runs contrary to the intention of the creator of the world, and contradicts his admonition that one should make Tekumel their own? I don't get it, and this is why i usually don't get into discussions about the ease or viability of running a campaign in Tekumel. All I know is that I have run campaigns on Tekumel for a long time, and there has never been an issue introducing players into the setting who have never heard of it before.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron Opal on September 27, 2016, 11:45:37 AM
Inept evil, perhaps.

What struck me most about the cults of Stability and Change, is that they both want / need a functioning society. The mortals need it, at the least. And the gods are willing to tolerate it as it is the chessboard upon which their game is played.

Certainly, there are grim rituals of the Dark. And, there are fewer consequences in using a random peasant when enacting the Second Appeasment of the Cupric Sentinel. Really, who will miss them? But, if they are not slaves or clanless, you have a lot of bother that can be distracting; paperwork, weregild, and the like. And, you really don't want a band of adventurers breaking into your sanctum while invoking the Cacophanous Harmony of Vourhana. I mean, tentacles everywhere. That isn't good for anybody.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 27, 2016, 11:53:04 AM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;921818
This social status problem is a mystery to me. As an older gamer from the UK (roughly contemporary with Chirine) I have very little difficulty in understanding how this works as it's very much the norm in class-ridden British society prior to the Great War. Even up till the Fifties when I was born there was very much a social stratification of the population. Having been married to a Californian and lived in the US for a number of years I can see that the social structure of the US is very much a determinant in people not understanding how this sort of thing works. The insularity of most Americans works against them when it comes to understanding a lot of things like very different social structures that are outside their normal frame of reference. People that travel outside their cultural norm are much more likely to have some experience of different situations that allows them to see things in a different way.  -snip-


With me as well. Even though I was not raised in such a society, and really have no first hand experience with one, it doesn't require much to imagine what living in one must be like. I think if a prospective player or GM took a few minutes to look at the Tekumel website, and read  a cursory explanation of caste based societies, such as this wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste), they would have more than enough background information for a general understanding of how Tekumel works.
Beisdes, no one says that games must specifically be set in Jakalla or some other Tsolyani city. There is a lot of wilderness where you could set a game and not have to worry about any societal proscriptions regarding interaction or advancement. I've done this quite successfully in the past in my game.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 27, 2016, 11:57:48 AM
Quote from: Baron Opal;922024
Inept evil, perhaps.

What struck me most about the cults of Stability and Change, is that they both want / need a functioning society. The mortals need it, at the least. And the gods are willing to tolerate it as it is the chessboard upon which their game is played.

Certainly, there are grim rituals of the Dark. And, there are fewer consequences in using a random peasant when enacting the Second Appeasment of the Cupric Sentinel. Really, who will miss them? But, if they are not slaves or clanless, you have a lot of bother that can be distracting; paperwork, weregild, and the like. And, you really don't want a band of adventurers breaking into your sanctum while invoking the Cacophanous Harmony of Vourhana. I mean, tentacles everywhere. That isn't good for anybody.


:D Indeed! Besides, I'm sure you can appreciate how difficult it is to clean up all the spilled ichor... For some reason the slaves really have an aversion to the stuff. :D

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 27, 2016, 12:03:27 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;921878
Same here, on reflection.-(snip)- Maybe it's a cultural thing? Looking back on it, we didn't have this issue with the Aussies, Europeans, and UK people that we talked to; it seems to be US players who seem to have the big issues with clans and social conduct. We learned very early on -(snip)-


What about Canadians? Did you find that they were "ok" with it given Canada's traditional ties to the UK, and its multicultural nature.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 27, 2016, 12:07:56 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;921928

-(snip)-
I still don't think one needs to study in detail before one can play; I still think that a copy of EPT and some imagination will do just fine. I should note that I feel that way about all the rules and world-settings I've played in, from Ancients to Science-fiction. I still think it helps facilitate the game if one knows something about the genre one wants to play in, though, as it might save one from later 'buyer remorse'. -(snip)-



I agree and if I might add, as I said in an earlier post, the Tekumel website for some extra background info and visuals.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 27, 2016, 02:15:18 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;921996
With the original presentation of Good & Evil, wouldn't that be expected from "Evil"?
=

Not by anybody over the age of 12.  Just as "Good is not Stupid," "Evil is not a sadistic child."  q.v. Baron Harkonnen in the book version of "Dune" versus the flying pustule of the movie.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 27, 2016, 02:17:10 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;922023
This is kind of how I feel about it, but the same attitude also prevails in the games that I've run in other campaign settings. As I tell my players they can do whatever they like in the game, I won't mandate a particular behavioural pattern, but  there are always repercussions, both bad and good. This is why I never bought the notion of the absolutely rigid and inflexible social strata for Tekumel. You and Chirine are prime examples that this is B.S. Detractors of, and those reluctant to play in Tekumel often point to this, along with a perceived dogmatic requirement that one must be fluent in the background minutiae in order to successfully "play Tekumel,"  or even start a game. Why should such a developed background setting be so inflexible that it would take an anthropologist or linguist to run it, when this runs contrary to the intention of the creator of the world, and contradicts his admonition that one should make Tekumel their own? I don't get it, and this is why i usually don't get into discussions about the ease or viability of running a campaign in Tekumel. All I know is that I have run campaigns on Tekumel for a long time, and there has never been an issue introducing players into the setting who have never heard of it before.

Shemek

As I said in the other Tekumel thread, the only thing more popular than delighting in Tekumel as a game where you have to learn all kinds of esoteric bullshit to play, is slagging off on Tekumel as a game where you have to learn all kinds of esoteric bullshit to play.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 27, 2016, 04:42:51 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;922058
Not by anybody over the age of 12.  Just as "Good is not Stupid," "Evil is not a sadistic child."  q.v. Baron Harkonnen in the book version of "Dune" versus the flying pustule of the movie.
David Lynch seems(ed) enamored with trying to depict evil simply and visually rather than going to the time and trouble to show us a character is evil via their choices and actions. Its one of the things I dislike about Lynch as a film maker.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on September 27, 2016, 04:58:54 PM
Looking at Man of Gold, it depicts people who are willing to...
...yet not be the kind of lower, brutish evildoer who gets off on hurting or belittling others as a way of ingratiating themselves, in fact such people seem to be looked on with disdain.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: ArrozConLeche on September 27, 2016, 05:02:37 PM
Chirine:

I saw it mentioned that you had a Tekumel movie list, and it seemed that you used one movie to get players into the spirit of it. Would you mind sharing that list at some point?

gracias
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 27, 2016, 05:06:15 PM
Quote from: Bren;922108
David Lynch seems(ed) enamored with trying to depict evil simply and visually rather than going to the time and trouble to show us a character is evil via their choices and actions. Its one of the things I dislike about Lynch as a film maker.

If Evil has redeeming qualities, how do you kill them just for experience points?
A caricature is easy to relate to and grasp in the short time of most encounters.
Remember, in the original rules only killing and gold gain experience. Anything additional was "house rules".
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 27, 2016, 05:54:35 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;922027
What about Canadians? Did you find that they were "ok" with it given Canada's traditional ties to the UK, and its multicultural nature.

Shemek


No data, sorry; you are the first Canadian RPG gamer I've ever talked to.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 27, 2016, 06:01:25 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;922120
Looking at Man of Gold, it depicts people who are willing to...
  • assassinate anyone who gets in their way
  • pursue personal gain at the expense of others
  • commit poisonings, torture, and human sacrifice on a large scale if need be
  • consort with demons and creatures of the dark

...yet not be the kind of lower, brutish evildoer who gets off on hurting or belittling others as a way of ingratiating themselves, in fact such people seem to be looked on with disdain.


Very well put!!! I think this is very accurate, myself.

If I may offer a story as an aside on this, I was once at an early Gen Con getting ragged on by some D&D players for being an 'Evil High Priest', and doing all of the stuff that you so neatly listed above. A guy at the next table was listening in on the conversation, and finally interrupted to say that in his estimation, Chirine is a paladin, and one of the very best kind as Chirine was doing exactly what his faith and temple asked of him. The D&D players were horrified by this statement, and immediately jumped on the guy and demanded to know by what right he could say such a terrible thing. He simply smiled, and held out a hand in greeting: "I'm Gary Gygax; pleasure to meet you!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 27, 2016, 06:10:48 PM
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;922121
Chirine:

I saw it mentioned that you had a Tekumel movie list, and it seemed that you used one movie to get players into the spirit of it. Would you mind sharing that list at some point?

gracias

I do; it got started when I was talking to Phil aeons ago about the movies he'd seen as a kid that had influenced him and later ones that he'd liked. A sample selection:

"Thief of Baghdad" - 1924
"Sign of the Cross" - 1932
"Cleopatra" - 1934
"Thief of Baghdad" - 1940
The "Flash Gordon" and "Buck Rogers" serials
"Ben-Hur" - 1929
"Ben-Hur" - 1959
"Spartacus" - 1960

He also liked HBO's "Rome" series, as well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on September 27, 2016, 07:28:33 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;922123
If Evil has redeeming qualities, how do you kill them just for experience points?
Run characters who are scoundrels and swashbucklers rather than romantic heroes.

Quote
A caricature is easy to relate to and grasp in the short time of most encounters.
I was referencing film. In Dune (book or film), Baron Harkonnen is hardly a one-time, brief encounter. Less time spent picking at his pustules, cackling, and flying about the room and a bit more time developing Baron H's character was what I was hoping for. Instead we got Eraserhead in space!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 27, 2016, 11:41:02 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;922120
Looking at Man of Gold, it depicts people who are willing to...
  • assassinate anyone who gets in their way
  • pursue personal gain at the expense of others
  • commit poisonings, torture, and human sacrifice on a large scale if need be
  • consort with demons and creatures of the dark
...yet not be the kind of lower, brutish evildoer who gets off on hurting or belittling others as a way of ingratiating themselves, in fact such people seem to be looked on with disdain.

Exactly. Dichune is willing to do horrible things to Harsan because it will get Dichune something of great value, not for shits and giggles.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 27, 2016, 11:41:48 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;922123
If Evil has redeeming qualities, how do you kill them just for experience points?
A caricature is easy to relate to and grasp in the short time of most encounters.
Remember, in the original rules only killing and gold gain experience. Anything additional was "house rules".
=

So?

The Yan Koryani soldiers were not evil, but they were a great source of XP.  War is war.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on September 28, 2016, 01:00:01 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;922204
Exactly. Dichune is willing to do horrible things to Harsan because it will get Dichune something of great value, not for shits and giggles.

Even as an Imperial Prince, Dichune seems bound by personal honor, the Concordat, and political repercussions.  However, it seems pretty clear the reason he entered that cabal was to gain their help against his siblings in the rites of secession which he was sure to lose.  So he's more than willing to cheat in perhaps the greatest test of his life.  What isn't clear though, is how accepted this is.  It could be that the capacity for cheating during the rites of secession and not getting caught is as much of a test as the official rites, we don't get enough of the viewpoints of the other princes to know, but based on Eselne, I kind of doubt it.

Question for Gronan and Chirine - if the Emperor had found out everything about Dichune's machinations, but they remained secret to the rest of society, what would likely be the result?

Second question - Does the OAL have authority over the Princes?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 28, 2016, 01:04:37 AM
I'm not sure.  I suspect the succession is rather like in Neil Gaiman's "Stardust."  But I couldn't say for sure... I stayed as far the hell away from Imperial politics as I could.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 28, 2016, 06:43:32 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;922211
Even as an Imperial Prince, Dichune seems bound by personal honor, the Concordat, and political repercussions.  However, it seems pretty clear the reason he entered that cabal was to gain their help against his siblings in the rites of secession which he was sure to lose.  So he's more than willing to cheat in perhaps the greatest test of his life.  What isn't clear though, is how accepted this is.  It could be that the capacity for cheating during the rites of secession and not getting caught is as much of a test as the official rites, we don't get enough of the viewpoints of the other princes to know, but based on Eselne, I kind of doubt it.

Question for Gronan and Chirine - if the Emperor had found out everything about Dichune's machinations, but they remained secret to the rest of society, what would likely be the result?

Second question - Does the OAL have authority over the Princes?

As the game of Imperial politics is played, he wasn't cheating. It's 'winner take all', as the Tsolyani take a very long-term view of history. Some of the most successful rulers have also been really nasty people who took the Petal Throne by sheer force. (See also "Deeds of the Ever-Glorious", and ninety-minute audio-taped interview with the Professor on the Kolumeljalim, the Choosing of the Emperor, in my files.)

Question #1: One dead Prince. They play very, very hardball in Avanthar, and they play for keeps. (See also Gronan's comment, above.) They react very violently to threats to the dynasty, too.

Question #2: Yes, but only to a limited degree. Each Imperial sibling usually has the backing of a faction inside the OAL, as 'younger' officers try to second-guess the Kolumeljalim and align themselves with the next ruler. The 'older' ones tend to be the supporters of the current incumbent. The ruler can give orders regarding his children, but usually the OAL treads pretty carefully when dealing with them. The one exception are violations of the Great Concordat - those get dealt with in a quite summary faction, as it's about the only thing that the Imperial siblings can agree on.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 28, 2016, 06:44:39 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;922204
Exactly. Dichune is willing to do horrible things to Harsan because it will get Dichune something of great value, not for shits and giggles.

"It's business, not personal." - Don Vito Corleone
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 28, 2016, 07:02:21 AM
Is it more likely for the people to rally behind a charismatic leader or an official authority?

"Come on boys, grab your pitchforks! We're gonna put a stop to this beast once and for all!"

"I have been authorized to deal with this beast. All men ages 16 to 30 bring your weapons and form ranks."

In other words, can a barbarian be expected to rise to prominence through shear personality and action?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on September 28, 2016, 07:51:41 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;922242
Is it more likely for the people to rally behind a charismatic leader or an official authority?

"Come on boys, grab your pitchforks! We're gonna put a stop to this beast once and for all!"

"I have been authorized to deal with this beast. All men ages 16 to 30 bring your weapons and form ranks."

In other words, can a barbarian be expected to rise to prominence through shear personality and action?
=


But that's exactly what happened to the Glorious General, isn't it?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on September 28, 2016, 09:50:36 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;922123
If Evil has redeeming qualities, how do you kill them just for experience points?
A caricature is easy to relate to and grasp in the short time of most encounters.
Remember, in the original rules only killing and gold gain experience. Anything additional was "house rules".
=

If we only play for experience points, why would we bother with social interaction instead of simply planning heists in well-guarded places to gain maximum gold;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on September 28, 2016, 12:28:31 PM
Sorry to barge in like that, in the middle of this excellent discussion on how strict inter-clan relations are on a day-to-day basis, but I stumbled upon this up-coming game: The Chronicles of Future Earth (https://mindjammerpress.com/chronicles/), by the brilliant Sarah Newton.

Check out the cover:

If only the same could be applied to

Newton actually wrote a kind and heartfelt note when Professor Barker passed on. You can find it here:
https://sarahnewtonwriter.com/2012/03/17/rip-prof-mar-barker-creator-of-tekumel/
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on September 28, 2016, 12:39:11 PM
Sorry to barge in like that, in the middle of this excellent discussion on how strict inter-clan relations are on a day-to-day basis (hint: not very), but I stumbled upon this up-coming game: The Chronicles of Future Earth (https://mindjammerpress.com/chronicles/), by the brilliant Sarah Newton.

Check out the cover:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]423[/ATTACH]

Imagine Tekumel illustrated like that, along with a book containing some of the demystifying wisdom found on this thread, like the current discussion on how flexible so-called "strict inter-clan relations" actually are.

Newton wrote a thoughtful note on Tekumel on the occasion of Professor Barker's passing. Some of you may already have read it. You can find it here (https://sarahnewtonwriter.com/2012/03/17/rip-prof-mar-barker-creator-of-tekumel/).

She too agrees that publishing a series of good adventures or a even a large campaign set on Tekumel would go a long way in helping the world get more traction with the public. That and the sort of illustration she managed to get for her science-fantasy setting, I guess.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 28, 2016, 12:40:53 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;922261
If we only play for experience points, why would we bother with social interaction instead of simply planning heists in well-guarded places to gain maximum gold;)?

Wasn't that the original idea of D&D?  KILL THINGS AND TAKE THEIR STUFF or did I miss something?
I recall there was a transition from battles to looting.  
That "social interaction" stuff was just while you looked for new places to loot. ;)
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on September 28, 2016, 12:52:30 PM
Sorry to barge in like that, in the middle of this excellent discussion on how strict inter-clan relations are on a day-to-day basis (hint: not very), but I stumbled upon this up-coming game: The Chronicles of Future Earth (https://mindjammerpress.com/chronicles/), by the brilliant Sarah Newton.

Check out the cover:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]424[/ATTACH]

Imagine Tekumel illustrated like that, along with a book containing some of the demystifying wisdom found on this thread, like the current discussion on how flexible so-called "strict inter-clan relations" actually are.

Newton wrote a thoughtful note on Tekumel on the occasion of Professor Barker's passing. Some of you may already have read it. You can find it here (https://sarahnewtonwriter.com/2012/03/17/rip-prof-mar-barker-creator-of-tekumel/).

She too agrees that publishing a series of good adventures or a even a large campaign set on Tekumel would go a long way in helping the world get more traction with the public. That and the sort of illustration she managed to get for her science-fantasy setting, I guess.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 28, 2016, 02:35:15 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;922300
Wasn't that the original idea of D&D?  KILL THINGS AND TAKE THEIR STUFF or did I miss something?
I recall there was a transition from battles to looting.  
That "social interaction" stuff was just while you looked for new places to loot. ;)
=

Grr!  This whole "there was no role playing in OD&D gives me uncontrollable flatulence!

PRAAAAAAFBLLFFFTTT!!

See what you did now?  That's ALL YOUR FAULT!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on September 28, 2016, 02:36:18 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;922248
But that's exactly what happened to the Glorious General, isn't it?

Shemek


No, I went and joined the Army.  At that point I had a role in the society.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 28, 2016, 05:53:01 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;922242
Is it more likely for the people to rally behind a charismatic leader or an official authority?

"Come on boys, grab your pitchforks! We're gonna put a stop to this beast once and for all!"

"I have been authorized to deal with this beast. All men ages 16 to 30 bring your weapons and form ranks."

In other words, can a barbarian be expected to rise to prominence through shear personality and action?
=

The former, in my experience both in-game and out-. 'Official Authority', unless present in the form of a charismatic leader, usually isn't able to inspire ordinary people to do extraordinary things. (I freely grant that there are some exceptions to this generalization, but they have a lot more to do with discipline and training then would be found in the usual course of society - in-game or out-.) Eselne or Mirusiya was a lot more inspiring then Mridobu or Rereshqala, to cite one example from Tekumel.

Yes. Ahim Basrim / Kadarsha comes to mind, from Phil's campaign.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 28, 2016, 05:57:56 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;922302
Sorry to barge in like that, in the middle of this excellent discussion on how strict inter-clan relations are on a day-to-day basis (hint: not very), but I stumbled upon this up-coming game: The Chronicles of Future Earth (https://mindjammerpress.com/chronicles/), by the brilliant Sarah Newton.

Check out the cover:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]424[/ATTACH]

Imagine Tekumel illustrated like that, along with a book containing some of the demystifying wisdom found on this thread, like the current discussion on how flexible so-called "strict inter-clan relations" actually are.

Newton wrote a thoughtful note on Tekumel on the occasion of Professor Barker's passing. Some of you may already have read it. You can find it here (https://sarahnewtonwriter.com/2012/03/17/rip-prof-mar-barker-creator-of-tekumel/).

She too agrees that publishing a series of good adventures or a even a large campaign set on Tekumel would go a long way in helping the world get more traction with the public. That and the sort of illustration she managed to get for her science-fantasy setting, I guess.

Agreed, on all counts. I'm sort of hoping to do something like this with my book, but we'll see... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on September 28, 2016, 06:49:57 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;922318
Grr!  This whole "there was no role playing in OD&D gives me uncontrollable flatulence!


I was not trying to imply that there was no ROLE playing in OD&D.
I was saying that the Rules As Written encouraged a certain type of play that focused on the things that gave experience over things that didn't.
I suppose it could be lumped under what is called Min-Maxing but "abusing the rules" and "playing by the rules" are not exactly the same.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on September 28, 2016, 08:15:04 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;922361
I'm sort of hoping to do something like this with my book, but we'll see... :)

That'd be amazing!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on September 29, 2016, 05:11:06 AM
So the first game was kinda sorta OD&D with similar types of spells and effects.

What about Swords & Glory and Gardasiyal?  Did Barker ever move away from D&D spells to more Book of Ebon Bindings style heavily setting-flavored magic?  Did he favor things like variable spell effects, criticals or fumbles, the kind of stuff you might see in DCC?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 29, 2016, 06:46:24 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;922385
That'd be amazing!

We shall try to please... :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on September 29, 2016, 06:51:20 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;922422
So the first game was kinda sorta OD&D with similar types of spells and effects.

What about Swords & Glory and Gardasiyal?  Did Barker ever move away from D&D spells to more Book of Ebon Bindings style heavily setting-flavored magic?  Did he favor things like variable spell effects, criticals or fumbles, the kind of stuff you might see in DCC?

Yes; he moved back to what he'd done in "War of Wizards", and S&G's spell lists are based on that. Much more setting flavor.

Yes, as his idea of 'you roll, I'll roll' allowed for that kind of thing. S&G may also have a table for it - it does for everything else.

(What is 'DCC', if you don't mind? I am not up on modern gaming terms.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on September 29, 2016, 08:09:45 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;922300
Wasn't that the original idea of D&D?  KILL THINGS AND TAKE THEIR STUFF or did I miss something?
I recall there was a transition from battles to looting.  
That "social interaction" stuff was just while you looked for new places to loot. ;)
=
I was going to let Gronan answer that...then I saw he had. Though his answer might have been more informative:).

No, it wasn't the idea, AFAICT.

Quote from: Greentongue;922372
I was not trying to imply that there was no ROLE playing in OD&D.
I was saying that the Rules As Written encouraged a certain type of play that focused on the things that gave experience over things that didn't.
I suppose it could be lumped under what is called Min-Maxing but "abusing the rules" and "playing by the rules" are not exactly the same.
=
And my point was that "playing only with those things that the rules cover" is not forbidden, not in bad taste - but to me, it would result in campaigns that are boring...;)
Besides, why would you choose to focus on XP only? OD&D rules had devoted enough space on the accumulation of retainers and hirelings, the ways to preserve their loyalty, and so on and so forth. Why ignore those parts of it, and focus on XP instead:p?

(Of course, if any part of the rules demands more focus, it should totally be the random harlots table and not boring stuff like XP-counting;)).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;922427
Yes; he moved back to what he'd done in "War of Wizards", and S&G's spell lists are based on that. Much more setting flavor.

Yes, as his idea of 'you roll, I'll roll' allowed for that kind of thing. S&G may also have a table for it - it does for everything else.

(What is 'DCC', if you don't mind? I am not up on modern gaming terms.)

DCC is an OSR game. I actually told Shemek last night that I consider it the best option for Tekumel among all OSR products. Consider the following features:
Warriors who can do Might Deeds of Arms when they roll good enough (stuff like adding trips, disarms and the likes to your attack).
Spells-heavy magic system with different levels of effect for the spells, sometimes exceeding what you had in mind.
The ability to gain outwordly "Patrons", often gods or demons (DCC doesn't really differentiate between the two). Those might well want things from you, and impose you a geas.
The ability to sacrifice your own vitality and/or blood to "power up" a spell.
The chance the contact with outwardly energies might warp you in body and/or mind.
Wizards opposing their arcane might in spell duels which might end up with one or both of them dead.

Sounds like what Tekumel should be, doesn't it:D?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on September 29, 2016, 12:51:48 PM
Question time, on clan meeting protocol.

Say a lower clan asks a medium clan for help resolving or arbitrating an issue. The only available medium clan members who could help out have only recently gotten their official adult names. These young-lings are sent to meet the lower clan elder to see what the matter is and figure out how to arbitrate or solve the issue.

At that meeting, who sits on the highest dais/pile of mats? The lower clan elder, or the young members of the medium clan?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on September 29, 2016, 01:43:14 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;922427
Yes; he moved back to what he'd done in "War of Wizards", and S&G's spell lists are based on that. Much more setting flavor.

Could you talk more about what makes the magic in War of Wizards more Tekumelani? How is it different from later incarnations?

Also, somewhat related, which system do you think gives the best sense of what Tekumelani magic is like?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on September 29, 2016, 01:55:03 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;922427
(What is 'DCC', if you don't mind? I am not up on modern gaming terms.)
Dungeon Crawl Classics, an OSR game by Goodman Games.  As Asen mentioned, while it includes some newer D&D aspects, it is very old school in certain respects, like alignment being Law/Chaos, limited classes, race as class for demihumans, etc...

Quote from: AsenRG;922431
I consider it the best option for Tekumel among all OSR products. Consider the following features:
Warriors who can do Might Deeds of Arms when they roll good enough (stuff like adding trips, disarms and the likes to your attack).
Spells-heavy magic system with different levels of effect for the spells, sometimes exceeding what you had in mind.
The ability to gain outwordly "Patrons", often gods or demons (DCC doesn't really differentiate between the two). Those might well want things from you, and impose you a geas.
The ability to sacrifice your own vitality and/or blood to "power up" a spell.
The chance the contact with outwardly energies might warp you in body and/or mind.
Wizards opposing their arcane might in spell duels which might end up with one or both of them dead.

Sounds like what Tekumel should be, doesn't it:D?
I know, right?  After reading Man of Gold and learning more about the cosmology of the "gods", DCC was the first thing that popped into my head.  I think you could make a pretty good show of it with Mythras/RQ6 as well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on September 29, 2016, 02:03:14 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;922492
Dungeon Crawl Classics, an OSR game by Goodman Games.  As Asen mentioned, while it includes some newer D&D aspects, it is very old school in certain respects, like alignment being Law/Chaos, limited classes, race as class for demihumans, etc...

I know, right?  After reading Man of Gold and learning more about the cosmology of the "gods", DCC was the first thing that popped into my head.  I think you could make a pretty good show of it with Mythras/RQ6 as well.

Agreed on both accounts, though I'd probably just use Béthorm and adapt the special effects/Deed die to it, rather than adapt all the spells to DCC or Mythras.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 01, 2016, 06:08:02 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;922466
Question time, on clan meeting protocol.

Say a lower clan asks a medium clan for help resolving or arbitrating an issue. The only available medium clan members who could help out have only recently gotten their official adult names. These young-lings are sent to meet the lower clan elder to see what the matter is and figure out how to arbitrate or solve the issue.

At that meeting, who sits on the highest dais/pile of mats? The lower clan elder, or the young members of the medium clan?


Depends on which clan house they meet in. If the lower, then the higher clan would be seated a little bit higher then the lower to show them all due respect as both honored guests and for helping. if at the higher, the lower clan elders would have much better quality of seating then the higher youngsters to show them all due respect as elders and friends; the higher clan would still have very slightly higher seating, to show their status, but it would be noble of the higher clan to be as polite as possible.

And the youngsters would have it hammered into them by their elders to be very polite and cordial; the clan's major-domo would also superintend the meeting to make sure that there were no mistakes.

I'd love to be there for this!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 01, 2016, 06:21:11 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;922486
Could you talk more about what makes the magic in War of Wizards more Tekumelani? How is it different from later incarnations?

Also, somewhat related, which system do you think gives the best sense of what Tekumelani magic is like?


"War of Wizards" is the first clear statement by Phil on how he thought magic would work in his world. It is very 'Vancian', which makes sense as Phil was a good friend of Jack Vance - Phil did the first map of the Dying Earth for him, back in the late 1940s/ early 1950s. It is very rich and nuanced, with lots of spells with names redolent of Tekumel. EPT's spell lists, on the other hand, are very short, laconic, and almost perfunctory; they were done in the 'Arnesonian-Gygaxian' style, as Gary wanted EPT to be as compatible as possible to D&D. Phil went back to his original conception with S&G /"Gardasiyal", with recondite spell lists and effects dependent on the skill and ability of the sorcerer. "Bethorm" builds on this, and is the direct descendent of S&G in this as it recaptitulates what Phil did in S&G.

"Ebon Bindings" falls outside this line of development, as it is the equivalent of the unpublished M-series spells that lie beyond the top of the published spell lists in S&G. It's the higher level stuff, not normally seen in the setting or in Phil's game play.

The line of thought in "War of Wizards", S&G/"Gardasiyal", "Bethorm" would be my preference; I use it myself in my games.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 01, 2016, 06:22:08 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;922492
Dungeon Crawl Classics, an OSR game by Goodman Games.  As Asen mentioned, while it includes some newer D&D aspects, it is very old school in certain respects, like alignment being Law/Chaos, limited classes, race as class for demihumans, etc...


Great! Thank you both!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 01, 2016, 06:24:35 AM
I will be off-line until sometime tomorrow; I am appearing as an exhibit at 'Dave Arneson Day' today at The Source Comics and Games, sitting in front of one of my Skyilne displays and answering questions about Dave and the early days of gaming here in the Twin Cities. I will take lots of pictures, and report back on the mayhem... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on October 01, 2016, 10:18:58 AM
Have fun.

When you get back...

Question about clans.  
If a higher status clan is petitioned for help by a lower status clan, is the petition for help itself honoring the higher clan, acknowledging their ability/strength, etc?
If a clan finds itself able to help many lower clans and gather influence/favors, etc... can that raise the higher clan's status?  Clan A and Clan B start off roughly equal, but Clan B turns out to be one successfully petitioned when needed for aid/favors, etc, can it be effectively higher status than Clan A simply because everyone turns to Clan B when they need a higher class clan?

The reason I'm asking is that it seems a clan that can't rise above it's equals through traditional political or economic means might do so through it's control of unconventional assets (ie. adventurers/PCs) who can act as troubleshooters and Get Things Done, kinda sorta like the way the Mafia or Yakuza got started, maybe not illegal, but just able to help in different ways.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on October 01, 2016, 03:06:20 PM
First, enjoy being an exhibit!

Second, what are the Crystal Claw and the Silver Butterfly? What did they do? Where were they found? Were you part of their acquisition and use? Came across them in Prince of Skulls.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 01, 2016, 09:21:48 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;922857
First, enjoy being an exhibit!

Second, what are the Crystal Claw and the Silver Butterfly? What did they do? Where were they found? Were you part of their acquisition and use? Came across them in Prince of Skulls.


Funny.I just finished reading PoS a few weeks ago. I was going to email Chirine with some questions. On pg 109, I made note of those very items, as well as a certain Arumel...Anyhow, since you are doing it here, I guess I will too. So Uncle, how did your adventures in that part of Tekumel relate to the happenings in PoS? Thanks.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on October 02, 2016, 08:57:00 AM
How much do people know about creatures of the Underworld?

Would people know the difference between a demon and a "normal" monster or is there no real difference?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 02, 2016, 09:55:08 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;922837
Have fun.

When you get back...

Question about clans.  
If a higher status clan is petitioned for help by a lower status clan, is the petition for help itself honoring the higher clan, acknowledging their ability/strength, etc?
If a clan finds itself able to help many lower clans and gather influence/favors, etc... can that raise the higher clan's status?  Clan A and Clan B start off roughly equal, but Clan B turns out to be one successfully petitioned when needed for aid/favors, etc, can it be effectively higher status than Clan A simply because everyone turns to Clan B when they need a higher class clan?

The reason I'm asking is that it seems a clan that can't rise above it's equals through traditional political or economic means might do so through it's control of unconventional assets (ie. adventurers/PCs) who can act as troubleshooters and Get Things Done, kinda sorta like the way the Mafia or Yakuza got started, maybe not illegal, but just able to help in different ways.


Thank you! I did - quick report on my blog, with more to follow.

Yes, to both questions. Clans that have a reputation for being 'able to deliver the goods' will enjoy a better reputation, and will over time gain a higher status in society because of that. The Tekumelyani are nothing if not pragmatic; I can think of a number of very ancient and noble clans who are supposedly very high status, but nobody much deals with them because they are just not very effective. (Like the Court Nobles under the Shogunate.) They do get invited to social events, to lend a patina of nobility to the affair, but they are not the people you call when you need a favor or something done.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 02, 2016, 09:56:56 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;922857
First, enjoy being an exhibit!

Second, what are the Crystal Claw and the Silver Butterfly? What did they do? Where were they found? Were you part of their acquisition and use? Came across them in Prince of Skulls.

Thank you! I did!

This was after my time with Phil; all I know is what you do. I'd suggest the Blue Room Archive, as this was the the time that this had gotten started and was really rolling.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 02, 2016, 09:58:35 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;922886
Funny.I just finished reading PoS a few weeks ago. I was going to email Chirine with some questions. On pg 109, I made note of those very items, as well as a certain Arumel...Anyhow, since you are doing it here, I guess I will too. So Uncle, how did your adventures in that part of Tekumel relate to the happenings in PoS? Thanks.

H:0)

No connection at all; this was the later (1990s) group of players. (We were 1976 to 1988-1990.) No data, sorry; this period of Phil's campaign is very poorly documented.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 02, 2016, 10:07:42 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;922945
How much do people know about creatures of the Underworld?

Would people know the difference between a demon and a "normal" monster or is there no real difference?
=

Ordinary people, very little; this is the stuff of legend and nightmare. 'Professionals' and 'educated' people, quite a lot, and of course the relevant Temples a whole lot.

No, not really; see above. As for a difference, 'demons' are beings from other planes, and not 'normal'; temple-educated people would know the difference.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 02, 2016, 01:34:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;922950
No connection at all; this was the later (1990s) group of players. (We were 1976 to 1988-1990.) No data, sorry; this period of Phil's campaign is very poorly documented.


Okay, thank you. Uncle, another question regarding buying and selling goods. In general, how does it work? I understand that certain clans have certain specialities. As far as selling their goods where is this done? Cities have bazaar style locations where people can shop, so do clans have stalls? Some clanhouses have storefronts as part of their house. Do clans have seperate stores not physically part of the clanhouse in another part of the city? I believe I have asked a similar question in the past, but I am still not entirely clear on the subject.

For example:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]427[/ATTACH]

In the clanhouse of the Iron Plume in Jakalla there is a room marked booksellers and copyists. I would imagine that one could make a appointment or maybe show up during "business hours" and buy books...I would think other clans would do the same. Depending on the items purchased it would be easier to be as discreet as possible. Uncle your insight would be helpful. Thank you as always.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 02, 2016, 02:13:32 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;922971
Okay, thank you. Uncle, another question regarding buying and selling goods. In general, how does it work? I understand that certain clans have certain specialities. As far as selling their goods where is this done? Cities have bazaar style locations where people can shop, so do clans have stalls? Some clanhouses have storefronts as part of their house. Do clans have seperate stores not physically part of the clanhouse in another part of the city? I believe I have asked a similar question in the past, but I am still not entirely clear on the subject.

In the clanhouse of the Iron Plume in Jakalla there is a room marked booksellers and copyists. I would imagine that one could make a appointment or maybe show up during "business hours" and buy books...I would think other clans would do the same. Depending on the items purchased it would be easier to be as discreet as possible. Uncle your insight would be helpful. Thank you as always.

H:0)


Generally, one has several ways to buy things. First, one can let the clan know that one needs or wants something, and in effect 'put in a requisition'. Very high or very busy people can do this, but one should expect to pay a premium for the 'order processing, 'shipping and handling', etc. Normally, one goes to do one's shopping by going off the the appropriate quarter of the city, and looking over the wares on offer. One can certainly make appointments; one would let the clan's major-domo know what one was looking for, and that worthy would provide a list of places to go and people to see, as well as one of their staff to go with you to make sure you found everything. One normally favors the clans and people with whom the clan has regular dealings, or with somebody who comes with the right introduction from one's own clan or a friendly clan - "I don't have that in my shop, lord, but I know  a family that might..." (The polite shopper always leaves a little gift, in return for that kind of thing, too.)

So, one goes to the marketplace. Different quarters of the city have different markets; one has the grocers, one the booksellers, and so on. As you mention, quite a few sellers have their shops attached to their clan houses, and others have stalls out in the open plaza - under awnings, of course= and some do have separate shops. Some of the stalls have been in that particular clan and family for years - on some cases, a whole lot of years! One is invited in to rest one's weary feet, get out of the hot sun, away from the wind, and so on; one is made to feel like a guest, and is treated to light refreshments; after a decent interval of discussion of family, can, temple, and so on one is shown samples of the merchandise one might be inclined to buy, and the bargaining begins. Eventually, a price is settled on, farewells are made, and one moves on to the next shop or stall.
There are also street vendors, selling both goods and light 'snacks', and some of these have been 'working that street' for generations.

'Shopping' is as much a social occasion as it is getting something. the notion of 'just popping in for a whatever' isn't there; that kind of brisk 'in and out' is usually handled behind the scenes by one's servants.

Places are open during the day or by appointment, depending on the merchandise; more rare and expensive goods are not on display, but must be seen in private showings. Your example, the bookseller, may allow a regular (and wealthy!) customer into the copyists' room, but normally they would be allowed into the courtyard (if lower status) or entertained in the common rooms (if higher).

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 02, 2016, 04:59:30 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;922975
Generally, one has several ways to buy things. First, one can let the clan know that one needs or wants something, and in effect 'put in a requisition'. Very high or very busy people can do this, but one should expect to pay a premium for the 'order processing, 'shipping and handling', etc. Normally, one goes to do one's shopping by going off the the appropriate quarter of the city, and looking over the wares on offer. One can certainly make appointments; one would let the clan's major-domo know what one was looking for, and that worthy would provide a list of places to go and people to see, as well as one of their staff to go with you to make sure you found everything. One normally favors the clans and people with whom the clan has regular dealings, or with somebody who comes with the right introduction from one's own clan or a friendly clan - "I don't have that in my shop, lord, but I know  a family that might..." (The polite shopper always leaves a little gift, in return for that kind of thing, too.)

So, one goes to the marketplace. Different quarters of the city have different markets; one has the grocers, one the booksellers, and so on. As you mention, quite a few sellers have their shops attached to their clan houses, and others have stalls out in the open plaza - under awnings, of course= and some do have separate shops. Some of the stalls have been in that particular clan and family for years - on some cases, a whole lot of years! One is invited in to rest one's weary feet, get out of the hot sun, away from the wind, and so on; one is made to feel like a guest, and is treated to light refreshments; after a decent interval of discussion of family, can, temple, and so on one is shown samples of the merchandise one might be inclined to buy, and the bargaining begins. Eventually, a price is settled on, farewells are made, and one moves on to the next shop or stall.
There are also street vendors, selling both goods and light 'snacks', and some of these have been 'working that street' for generations.

'Shopping' is as much a social occasion as it is getting something. the notion of 'just popping in for a whatever' isn't there; that kind of brisk 'in and out' is usually handled behind the scenes by one's servants.

Places are open during the day or by appointment, depending on the merchandise; more rare and expensive goods are not on display, but must be seen in private showings. Your example, the bookseller, may allow a regular (and wealthy!) customer into the copyists' room, but normally they would be allowed into the courtyard (if lower status) or entertained in the common rooms (if higher).

Does this help?


Yes, very much. Thank you. Now I will have to look at clans, what they specialize in and where to place them in the area I am thinking of. Decisions, decisions...!!! I can definitly come up with all sorts of "mayhem" to get PCs involved with. Thanks again.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: RPGPundit on October 03, 2016, 02:26:48 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;922302
Sorry to barge in like that, in the middle of this excellent discussion on how strict inter-clan relations are on a day-to-day basis (hint: not very), but I stumbled upon this up-coming game: The Chronicles of Future Earth (https://mindjammerpress.com/chronicles/), by the brilliant Sarah Newton.

Check out the cover:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]424[/ATTACH]

Imagine Tekumel illustrated like that, along with a book containing some of the demystifying wisdom found on this thread, like the current discussion on how flexible so-called "strict inter-clan relations" actually are.

Newton wrote a thoughtful note on Tekumel on the occasion of Professor Barker's passing. Some of you may already have read it. You can find it here (https://sarahnewtonwriter.com/2012/03/17/rip-prof-mar-barker-creator-of-tekumel/).

She too agrees that publishing a series of good adventures or a even a large campaign set on Tekumel would go a long way in helping the world get more traction with the public. That and the sort of illustration she managed to get for her science-fantasy setting, I guess.


Newton, though not an OSR writer, is a pretty good game designer. I've reviewed some of her stuff.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on October 03, 2016, 10:31:21 PM
In keeping with the clan theme I also have some questions. How many people would you say live in a "typical" Low/Medium status Tsolyani clan house? Would the rural clan houses be similar to the urban ones, in layout and purpose?
Are the slaves typically "locked up" or "chained up" for the night, or is there basically an understanding between the owner and slave -"You try and escape and I make life very uncomfortable for you, or I'll kill you." Are there slave quarters or do they bed down wherever they can, or is it closer to the way it was with household slaves in Ancient Rome?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 04, 2016, 05:50:56 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;923149
In keeping with the clan theme I also have some questions. How many people would you say live in a "typical" Low/Medium status Tsolyani clan house? Would the rural clan houses be similar to the urban ones, in layout and purpose?
Are the slaves typically "locked up" or "chained up" for the night, or is there basically an understanding between the owner and slave -"You try and escape and I make life very uncomfortable for you, or I'll kill you." Are there slave quarters or do they bed down wherever they can, or is it closer to the way it was with household slaves in Ancient Rome?

Shemek

Right. Clan houses can range from a single family unit up to multiple units with residents and associated people in the hundreds. This is true for most clans, with urban clan houses usually being more concentrated in terms of the ground space they occupy and rural ones being more spread out. For urban compounds, think Meso-American residential complexes - what early explorers called 'palaces' or Ancient Egyptian town houses. For rural, think everything from single family houses with out buildings all the way up to the small villages of typical Roman 'villas' or Ancient Egyptian country houses. Lots of example of both on the web, and looking at South Asian equivalents would also be useful. Again, that's what Phil was familiar with - he started his career as a Meso=American anthropologist, then became a South Asian linguist. Rural clan houses tend to be more for agriculture or crafts; urban for crafts and trade. Urban clan houses can also be for purely residence purposes, with the working spaces elsewhere in the compound or elsewhere in the town / city.

(May I commend to your attention: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padmanabhapuram_Palace (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padmanabhapuram_Palace)

Slaves are normally housed in specific quarters, with the quarters being less sophisticated as as the status of the slave gets lower and lower. 'Household' slaves do sleep in the house, with decent quarters near the people that they serve; noble people never go into those areas of the house, if they can help it. Locking them up at night is rare; if one had a slave that needed this, one would sell them off or donate them to the Imperium - or to one's temple. The Imperium treats runaways very severely - if they are lucky, they get killed out of hand - and usually fines the owner for not properly training the slave to obey orders. As you mention, it's very well understood by both parties what the agreement is - the slave gets decent treatment, and the owner gets work. In return, neither causes trouble for the Imperium.

There have been slave revolts; Ferinara was the most recent one, and it was a very, very nasty business. The fief-holder got the idea that he could have his own private army by arming his slaves; I think he was hoping for Janissaries, and what he got was Spartacus. The Imperium promptly crushed the revolt, but it was a very bloody and very messy business. It's why Chirine does not own slaves; being murdered in one's bed does cause one a few problems.

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: GameDaddy on October 04, 2016, 08:23:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;923311
Slaves are normally housed in specific quarters, with the quarters being less sophisticated as as the status of the slave gets lower and lower. 'Household' slaves do sleep in the house, with decent quarters near the people that they serve; noble people never go into those areas of the house, if they can help it. Locking them up at night is rare; if one had a slave that needed this, one would sell them off or donate them to the Imperium - or to one's temple. The Imperium treats runaways very severely - if they are lucky, they get killed out of hand - and usually fines the owner for not properly training the slave to obey orders. As you mention, it's very well understood by both parties what the agreement is - the slave gets decent treatment, and the owner gets work. In return, neither causes trouble for the Imperium.

In May, I was down in jungle of Cozumel and visited the Temple of Ixchel, the temple of the Mayan Goddess of the moon, fertility, medicine, and happiness. This is near the present small town of San Gervasio, located in the northern quadrant, about in the center of Cozumel about twenty miles into the Jungle.  I had an extended and very enlightening conversation with my Mayan guide Nico (...except for the part where I wanted to talk about the underworld, we didn't end up talking very much about that, because he became very unhappy every time I brought that subject up) there. The Mayans are still very superstitious and continue to believe that you draw the spirits of the dead by traveling into the underworld, or even by speaking about the underworld. That's what he told me at least, before we quit talking about the underworld entirely.

We talked extensively about the Mayan slaves. He said they sent the slaves into the underworld unsupervised to work in the limestone mines. The Mayans had no wheels. They also had no pack animals at all. The dogs were too small, and Llamas don't do particularly well in a tropical jungle and tend to draw Jaguars because they are so stupid. In addition this was on an island off the coast of the Yucatan. What the Mayans did have is really good roads. The roads where straight without even a single curve, angle or jink, they were straight as an arrow. They were made mostly made out of the limestone that I mentioned earlier, and crushed limestone was packed over the limestone blocks, so the road was super smooth. Nico said they used slaves to transport trade goods and temple offerings because they also had lots of slaves.

While the Mayans practiced ritual human sacrifice, they wouldn't let the slaves be sacrificed. Only the best and brightest, to please the Gods, and Goddesses. The winning team of the hand ball games, great military or government leaders, exceptional priests, The best fighters, the best of their enemies fighters, only these people were good enough to appease the Gods. Slaves didn't rate.

He said that they send did their slaves to other cities, and had them carry the trade goods and offerings unescorted. They didn't even bother sending guards with their slaves. I was astonished. I asked him, "How could that be? What if they run away, or run off into the jungle." He just shrugged, and said "The Jaguars would get them, or they would die of starvation or the multitude of diseases,or poisonous food or snakes." He said "take your pick. They were much better off just by staying on the roads and doing their duty, finishing their task, and returning to their masters."

He told me that Mayan slaves were well fed, that they had decent living spaces. That they were free to pick which Gods or Goddesses they could pray to. Some of them were taught to read. Some of them were taught astronomy. They were allowed to marry whichever other slave they wanted. They could earn money in their spare time, raising crops or producing goods. For the most part it was simply inconceivable for a slave to rebel or escape. This was because of other than the labor, they often had a better quality of life than if they were living out in the Jungle with some wild tribe.

One other thing he mentioned was specifically about the Mayan merchants and the slave porters. He said the moonlight would illuminate the limestone road making it easy to see and travel through the night. Because it was so hot in the Jungle during the day, the Mayan slaves would wake up at dusk, and travel through the night, and then rest again in some shady place, after the sun came up. He said the routinely traveled 30-50 miles a night this way. If it was a runner, with just a message only, they could travel even faster, and the runners had relay stations setup along the side of the road, so that an important message was constantly in transit until it reached its' destination.

Somehow all the Mayan history books I have read, seemed to have missed most of this detail. I was amazed at how sophisticated and modern the Mayan Empire was. Reading, writing, trading networks,...a sophisticated system of roads, such gentle treatment of slaves, that they didn't even want to run away or rebel.

Just some historical commentary so that folks here could perhaps understand how the slaves of the Tsolyani would be able to live, in Tekumel.

Temple of Ixchel, Reference Images;
http://imgur.com/a/qGluO
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 04, 2016, 09:16:15 PM
Quote from: GameDaddy;923333
In May, I was down in jungle of Cozumel and visited the Temple of Ixchel, the temple of the Mayan Goddess of the moon, fertility, medicine, and happiness. This is near the present small town of San Gervasio, located in the northern quadrant, about in the center of Cozumel about twenty miles into the Jungle.  I had an extended and very enlightening conversation with my Mayan guide Nico (...except for the part where I wanted to talk about the underworld, we didn't end up talking very much about that, because he became very unhappy every time I brought that subject up) there. The Mayans are still very superstitious and continue to believe that you draw the spirits of the dead by traveling into the underworld, or even by speaking about the underworld. That's what he told me at least, before we quit talking about the underworld entirely.

We talked extensively about the Mayan slaves. He said they sent the slaves into the underworld unsupervised to work in the limestone mines. The Mayans had no wheels. They also had no pack animals at all. The dogs were too small, and Llamas don't do particularly well in a tropical jungle and tend to draw Jaguars because they are so stupid. In addition this was on an island off the coast of the Yucatan. What the Mayans did have is really good roads. The roads where straight without even a single curve, angle or jink, they were straight as an arrow. They were made mostly made out of the limestone that I mentioned earlier, and crushed limestone was packed over the limestone blocks, so the road was super smooth. Nico said they used slaves to transport trade goods and temple offerings because they also had lots of slaves.

While the Mayans practiced ritual human sacrifice, they wouldn't let the slaves be sacrificed. Only the best and brightest, to please the Gods, and Goddesses. The winning team of the hand ball games, great military or government leaders, exceptional priests, The best fighters, the best of their enemies fighters, only these people were good enough to appease the Gods. Slaves didn't rate.

He said that they send did their slaves to other cities, and had them carry the trade goods and offerings unescorted. They didn't even bother sending guards with their slaves. I was astonished. I asked him, "How could that be? What if they run away, or run off into the jungle." He just shrugged, and said "The Jaguars would get them, or they would die of starvation or the multitude of diseases,or poisonous food or snakes." He said "take your pick. They were much better off just by staying on the roads and doing their duty, finishing their task, and returning to their masters."

He told me that Mayan slaves were well fed, that they had decent living spaces. That they were free to pick which Gods or Goddesses they could pray to. Some of them were taught to read. Some of them were taught astronomy. They were allowed to marry whichever other slave they wanted. They could earn money in their spare time, raising crops or producing goods. For the most part it was simply inconceivable for a slave to rebel or escape. This was because of other than the labor, they often had a better quality of life than if they were living out in the Jungle with some wild tribe.

One other thing he mentioned was specifically about the Mayan merchants and the slave porters. He said the moonlight would illuminate the limestone road making it easy to see and travel through the night. Because it was so hot in the Jungle during the day, the Mayan slaves would wake up at dusk, and travel through the night, and then rest again in some shady place, after the sun came up. He said the routinely traveled 30-50 miles a night this way. If it was a runner, with just a message only, they could travel even faster, and the runners had relay stations setup along the side of the road, so that an important message was constantly in transit until it reached its' destination.

Somehow all the Mayan history books I have read, seemed to have missed most of this detail. I was amazed at how sophisticated and modern the Mayan Empire was. Reading, writing, trading networks,...a sophisticated system of roads, such gentle treatment of slaves, that they didn't even want to run away or rebel.

Just some historical commentary so that folks here could perhaps understand how the slaves of the Tsolyani would be able to live, in Tekumel.

Temple of Ixchel, Reference Images;
http://imgur.com/a/qGluO


Nice. Sounds like you had a great trip. Thanks for sharing!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on October 05, 2016, 07:01:09 AM
Quote from: GameDaddy;923333
Somehow all the Mayan history books I have read, seemed to have missed most of this detail. I was amazed at how sophisticated and modern the Mayan Empire was. Reading, writing, trading networks,...a sophisticated system of roads, such gentle treatment of slaves, that they didn't even want to run away or rebel.


History is written by the conquerors. It doesn't sit well to praise the people you just killed off.

Very interesting though and the Aztecs were a different culture altogether.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: ArrozConLeche on October 06, 2016, 02:13:37 PM
I saw a mention of a "Petal Hack". What's the general opinion on that?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on October 07, 2016, 05:56:46 AM
Hmm, Never heard of it.
Petal Hack is free on DTRPG. (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/187939/The-Petal-Hack)
The same author also has Heroic Age of Tekumel, also free. (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/161487/Heroic-Age-of-Tekumel-Quickstart-Beta?manufacturers_id=8983)
The author also has his personal website, he says has been around since 1991 (http://www.weirdrealm.com/tekumel/) it certainly looks like it.

Chirine and Gronan, you know this Brett Slocum guy?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 07, 2016, 07:02:11 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;923805
Hmm, Never heard of it.
Petal Hack is free on DTRPG. (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/187939/The-Petal-Hack)
The same author also has Heroic Age of Tekumel, also free. (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/161487/Heroic-Age-of-Tekumel-Quickstart-Beta?manufacturers_id=8983)
The author also has his personal website, he says has been around since 1991 (http://www.weirdrealm.com/tekumel/) it certainly looks like it.

Chirine and Gronan, you know this Brett Slocum guy?

I do. Brett runs the Tekumel group on Yahoo, and runs a room of Tekumel events at Con of the North here in the Twin Cities. He's done a lot of adaptations of RPGs for Tekumel, which I think are posted on the Yahoo group. He's a nice guy, and runs fun games.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 07, 2016, 07:02:44 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;923351
Nice. Sounds like you had a great trip. Thanks for sharing!!!

H:0)


Seconded - thank you for sharing this!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on October 07, 2016, 11:39:58 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;923311
Right. Clan houses can range from a single family unit up to multiple units with residents and associated people in the hundreds. This is true for most clans, with urban clan houses usually being more concentrated in terms of the ground space they occupy and rural ones being more spread out. For urban compounds, think Meso-American residential complexes - what early explorers called 'palaces' or Ancient Egyptian town houses. For rural, think everything from single family houses with out buildings all the way up to the small villages of typical Roman 'villas' or Ancient Egyptian country houses. Lots of example of both on the web, and looking at South Asian equivalents would also be useful. Again, that's what Phil was familiar with - he started his career as a Meso=American anthropologist, then became a South Asian linguist. Rural clan houses tend to be more for agriculture or crafts; urban for crafts and trade. Urban clan houses can also be for purely residence purposes, with the working spaces elsewhere in the compound or elsewhere in the town / city.

(May I commend to your attention: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padmanabhapuram_Palace (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padmanabhapuram_Palace)

Slaves are normally housed in specific quarters, with the quarters being less sophisticated as as the status of the slave gets lower and lower. 'Household' slaves do sleep in the house, with decent quarters near the people that they serve; noble people never go into those areas of the house, if they can help it. Locking them up at night is rare; if one had a slave that needed this, one would sell them off or donate them to the Imperium - or to one's temple. The Imperium treats runaways very severely - if they are lucky, they get killed out of hand - and usually fines the owner for not properly training the slave to obey orders. As you mention, it's very well understood by both parties what the agreement is - the slave gets decent treatment, and the owner gets work. In return, neither causes trouble for the Imperium.

There have been slave revolts; Ferinara was the most recent one, and it was a very, very nasty business. The fief-holder got the idea that he could have his own private army by arming his slaves; I think he was hoping for Janissaries, and what he got was Spartacus. The Imperium promptly crushed the revolt, but it was a very bloody and very messy business. It's why Chirine does not own slaves; being murdered in one's bed does cause one a few problems.

Does this help?


It does indeed! Thanks for the info Chirine.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 07, 2016, 06:34:23 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;923860
It does indeed! Thanks for the info Chirine.

Shemek.

You're very welcome!

I always worry that I'm being a bore by running on and on and on with my answers.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on October 08, 2016, 05:26:37 AM
As regard clan housing, this is what I'm using for my rural clan design: the Zacuala, a type of apartment compound found in Teotihuacan. Here's a link (https://wideurbanworld.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/living-good-life-in-teotihuacan.html). There are others like it out there. The Tetitla design is very good too.

Of course, I'm going to adapt these designs to my needs, by adding extra entrances to the building for instance. But that compound (1) is based on an actual functioning dwelling design, (2) allows for various lineages from the same clan to live under one roof (one could also have different clans of similar status living under one roof), and (3) corresponds to my idea that rural clan dwellings would be more spread out than their urban counterparts.
 
Once I'm done designing it (not now as I'm too swamped with work), I'll upload it to Brett Slocum's Yahoo Tekumel Group.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on October 08, 2016, 05:31:43 AM
Question:

There doesn't seem to be a lot of talk about "reincarnation" in Tsolyani religion. Is that correct? Could the PCs meet a superstitious NPC claiming that such child or other is the reincarnation of such god or goddess?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 08, 2016, 08:25:30 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;924019
As regard clan housing, this is what I'm using for my rural clan design: the Zacuala, a type of apartment compound found in Teotihuacan. Here's a link (https://wideurbanworld.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/living-good-life-in-teotihuacan.html). There are others like it out there. The Tetitla design is very good too.

Of course, I'm going to adapt these designs to my needs, by adding extra entrances to the building for instance. But that compound (1) is based on an actual functioning dwelling design, (2) allows for various lineages from the same clan to live under one roof (one could also have different clans of similar status living under one roof), and (3) corresponds to my idea that rural clan dwellings would be more spread out than their urban counterparts.
 
Once I'm done designing it (not now as I'm too swamped with work), I'll upload it to Brett Slocum's Yahoo Tekumel Group.

Very good! Thank you! This is one of the things that Phil knew about from his time in the area, and I think it's a lot of what he had in mind.

This is fun, isn't it? We're walking down the paths that Phil did, back when he started creating Tekumel, and I think it's a big part of what makes Tekumel fun...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 08, 2016, 08:28:12 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;924020
Question:

There doesn't seem to be a lot of talk about "reincarnation" in Tsolyani religion. Is that correct? Could the PCs meet a superstitious NPC claiming that such child or other is the reincarnation of such god or goddess?

There isn't a lot of reincarnation at all, due to the Temple of Sarku keeping their worshippers around for a while and the various aspects of the spirit-soul. Does it happen? Yes; seen it. Could somebody say this? Yes, but not for a deity or other non-human; think ancient hero or heroine...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 08, 2016, 11:36:44 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;924019
As regard clan housing, this is what I'm using for my rural clan design: the Zacuala, a type of apartment compound found in Teotihuacan. Here's a link (https://wideurbanworld.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/living-good-life-in-teotihuacan.html). There are others like it out there. The Tetitla design is very good too.

Of course, I'm going to adapt these designs to my needs, by adding extra entrances to the building for instance. But that compound (1) is based on an actual functioning dwelling design, (2) allows for various lineages from the same clan to live under one roof (one could also have different clans of similar status living under one roof), and (3) corresponds to my idea that rural clan dwellings would be more spread out than their urban counterparts.
 
Once I'm done designing it (not now as I'm too swamped with work), I'll upload it to Brett Slocum's Yahoo Tekumel Group.


Thank you for the reference. Can't wait to see the finished product!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 09, 2016, 08:23:54 PM
I officially put my Tekumel game on hold until I can finish two really good books on Southeast Asia before 13th century, and daily life in India;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 09, 2016, 08:31:16 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;924246
I officially put my Tekumel game on hold until I can finish two really good books on Southeast Asia before 13th century, and daily life in India;).

I can understand this; I keep very similar - and probably the very same books on my shelf for the same reasons.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 10, 2016, 07:58:04 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;924249
I can understand this; I keep very similar - and probably the very same books on my shelf for the same reasons.

Oh, it's quite possibly you have them already:). Still, these ones are new for me, so I want to read them before continuing.
Not sure what the names would be in English, so can't quote them;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 10, 2016, 05:31:09 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;924321
Oh, it's quite possibly you have them already:). Still, these ones are new for me, so I want to read them before continuing.
Not sure what the names would be in English, so can't quote them;).

Understood! These are older books with titles like "Everyday life in Ancient Egypt" or "India" or "Everyday Life of the Maya" or "Aztecs". These are the sorts of things that used to be found in school libraries when I was growing up; lots of newer books since those far-off days, of course! :)

They are very basic, easy to read books and have been very useful over the years to help new players get into the settings.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 10, 2016, 06:39:27 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;924368
Understood! These are older books with titles like "Everyday life in Ancient Egypt" or "India" or "Everyday Life of the Maya" or "Aztecs". These are the sorts of things that used to be found in school libraries when I was growing up; lots of newer books since those far-off days, of course! :)

They are very basic, easy to read books and have been very useful over the years to help new players get into the settings.
Well, the ones I'm using are probably newer, and many of them are from Russian authors. I think I'd be able to find some older ones on Rome and the Aztecs, though.
It's all part of my "reimagining Tekumel" project, though at the end it might end to be closer to "inspired by Tekumel", I'm afraid;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 10, 2016, 09:02:28 PM
So here's a question.

You've mentioned running home games for people who have never played any sort of wargame or RPG at all before.  How have you found most newcomers are with the idea "some of you might die?"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 10, 2016, 09:27:12 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;924389
So here's a question.

You've mentioned running home games for people who have never played any sort of wargame or RPG at all before.  How have you found most newcomers are with the idea "some of you might die?"


I'm sorry; are you asking me or Asen?

If me, they seemed to think that the risk was part and parcel of 'going on an adventure'. As with you and I - or with the Grey Mouser and his tall friend - managing that risk was one of the things that they thought added to the interest of the game; to the world setting, really, and it made no difference if it was Tekumel, Barsoom, or the Aegyptus of Lord Meren. The 'social contract' in my game sessions was 'high risk, high reward'.

Most liked it, a few did not; they didn't play for very long. The others stayed for years. (We had a good run; we played in my basement longer then we played in Phil's, oddly enough...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 10, 2016, 09:36:18 PM
And in case it's me, I've found most are fine with it, especially if you make that clear beforehand. Or at least, almost all of them think they would be fine, though when it happens for the first time, some might discover it upsets them more than they probably expected:).

Some people, of course, aren't going to be fine with it no matter what, but as long as we discover that in time, I just try to help them find a group better suited to their tastes;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 10, 2016, 10:55:17 PM
Well actually I was talking to Chirine but I'll take anybody's answer.

Mostly it's due to a tendency I've found from some people who've played too many computer games or too many later tabletop games influenced by them -- there are people who just don't seem to conceive of the fact that they might lose.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on October 10, 2016, 11:00:50 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;924396
Well actually I was talking to Chirine but I'll take anybody's answer.

Mostly it's due to a tendency I've found from some people who've played too many computer games or too many later tabletop games influenced by them -- there are people who just don't seem to conceive of the fact that they might lose.


I've been lucky thus far. I have never run into these types of players, but if I do I'll follow Asen's lead and help them to find another game more likely to meet their expectations.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on October 10, 2016, 11:07:58 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;923927
You're very welcome!

I always worry that I'm being a bore by running on and on and on with my answers.


Not as far as I'm concerned. Personally, I'd sooner have an answer with a lot of information than a yes or no answer. Besides, the size of this thread seems to suggest that you're not boring anyone who's actually interested in hearing about " Ye olden days.";)

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on October 10, 2016, 11:11:49 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;924019
As regard clan housing, this is what I'm using for my rural clan design: the Zacuala, a type of apartment compound found in Teotihuacan. Here's a link (https://wideurbanworld.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/living-good-life-in-teotihuacan.html). There are others like it out there. The Tetitla design is very good too.

Of course, I'm going to adapt these designs to my needs, by adding extra entrances to the building for instance. But that compound (1) is based on an actual functioning dwelling design, (2) allows for various lineages from the same clan to live under one roof (one could also have different clans of similar status living under one roof), and (3) corresponds to my idea that rural clan dwellings would be more spread out than their urban counterparts.
 
Once I'm done designing it (not now as I'm too swamped with work), I'll upload it to Brett Slocum's Yahoo Tekumel Group.


Thanks for the link. Very nice!
Why not post it here as well?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron on October 10, 2016, 11:16:11 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;924398
I've been lucky thus far. I have never run into these types of players, but if I do I'll follow Asen's lead and help them to find another game more likely to meet their expectations.

Shemek.

If I think there might be an issue, then I start the campaign with a chargen session. Everyone creates two or three fully fleshed-out characters. We start with a discussion of play style and expectations. If the first party "advances" significantly, we rotate in "Party B," so there will be backup characters of equivalent power level. Usually I only have to do this with teen or younger players... :-)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 11, 2016, 12:28:03 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;924402
Not as far as I'm concerned. Personally, I'd sooner have an answer with a lot of information than a yes or no answer. Besides, the size of this thread seems to suggest that you're not boring anyone who's actually interested in hearing about " Ye olden days.";)

Shemek.


Hear, hear Lord Shemek!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on October 11, 2016, 08:33:32 AM
In response to Gronan, I have, of course, into players like that before but with the group of young folk I am running for right now, this isn't a problem. All of them are new to rpgs (but have a played lots of video games) and they tend to err on the side of caution. They understand that there is no game save to fall back on (although they can replay the level over, I guess). They are attached to their characters but grasp that each one can take a trip to the Blessed Isles easily

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;924396
there are people who just don't seem to conceive of the fact that they might lose.

I never really understood the folks that looked at dying in a rpg as losing. If I had fun, I didn't lose, even if my pretend guy died in a pretend world. I know rpgs are supposed to be Serious Business (or are they Serious Art? I can never remember how I am supposed to treat them) but I am just looking to have a good time. A
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 11, 2016, 06:08:27 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;924396
Well actually I was talking to Chirine but I'll take anybody's answer.

Mostly it's due to a tendency I've found from some people who've played too many computer games or too many later tabletop games influenced by them -- there are people who just don't seem to conceive of the fact that they might lose.

Mmmm. Gotcha.

Never had a problem with people getting bent about the risk of their PC's getting killed; the people I've had in the game room - with the exception of the 'senior players', who have a whole different set of issues I had to deal with - all come from a F/SF background and who have a pretty good grounding in the tropes associated with being 'an adventurer'. They can immediately relate to Conan or John Carter, and along the way in the process of seducing them to The Dark Side they learn about Sinbad and his ilk.

I guess the one thing that has surprised me over the decades has been just how forgotten the world that you and I were immersed in has become. Frank Frazetta, when he's not being demonized, is a name nobody recognized. Ditto for Gordy and Cliff Simak - if you ain't Lovecraft, or something a lot more modern - like from the last three to five years, at most - you ain't.

Having said that, taking these people on an epic voyage of discovery into the rich and varied history of F/SF and the gaming that is spawned has been a lot of fun and a delight to see their faces light up as they encounter Scheherazade and her companions. We had a rich world outside of gaming that spilled over into our gaming, and by and large this seems to have been lost in the years that followed. When I saw a guy asking for a Roman 'suppliment' for a popular game system, I died a little; back in the day, Gary or Dave or their ilk would have just run the game session 'cause they had an idea what the Roman Empire was. Yes, 'adventures' are risky; read the pages of National Geographic to see the results when things go wrong...

< shrug > So it goes; time and tastes change, as do the mores and tropes of the host society. I don't mind it; what I object to is the insistence that I must do Something because of those changes. I am quite startled that I have to publish warnings about nekked 1" lead people, because some gamer gets offended. In short - and sorry for the digression! - I much prefer to game with non-gamers, as they simply accept the world-setting as it is, and 'play it where it lies'...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on October 11, 2016, 06:18:06 PM
One thing that modern pop culture has going for it are numerous television shows set in fantasy or medieval like worlds where people die like flies...
Game of Thrones
Vikings
The Last Kingdom
Spartacus
etc...
I'm sure there's a lot of shit like MTV's Shannara too, but there's also novels like Black Company that people may have read.  So there might be some cultural touchstones out there, just not the same ones.

As far as MMO players go Gronan, just tell them the game plays like a Hardcore PvP Server with Permadeath rules. :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 11, 2016, 07:02:47 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;924497
One thing that modern pop culture has going for it are numerous television shows set in fantasy or medieval like worlds where people die like flies...
Game of Thrones
Vikings
The Last Kingdom
Spartacus
etc...
I'm sure there's a lot of shit like MTV's Shannara too, but there's also novels like Black Company that people may have read.  So there might be some cultural touchstones out there, just not the same ones.

As far as MMO players go Gronan, just tell them the game plays like a Hardcore PvP Server with Permadeath rules. :D

I can agree with this, and I think it's true of most people that I run into. Video and digital media seem to be the norm; printed media is pretty rare, in my experience, which the exact opposite from the world that I knew. 'Reading' for enjoyment is unusual, from what I've seen. Times change.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 12, 2016, 02:12:18 PM
Well, this is largely my reaction to what I've seen in certain places, like the game where Chirine was subcontracted as the Bandit King (c) (tm) (reg us pat off).  It seems like tactics is simply unknown to a lot of people, and more, that using tactics against them is "unfair" somehow.

What it boils down to is the whole notion of "We're the player characters! CHARGE!" hits me like tinfoil on a filling.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 12, 2016, 03:26:27 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;924619
Well, this is largely my reaction to what I've seen in certain places, like the game where Chirine was subcontracted as the Bandit King (c) (tm) (reg us pat off).  It seems like tactics is simply unknown to a lot of people, and more, that using tactics against them is "unfair" somehow.

What it boils down to is the whole notion of "We're the player characters! CHARGE!" hits me like tinfoil on a filling.

I've got two words for you: encounter level.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 12, 2016, 05:52:54 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;924619
Well, this is largely my reaction to what I've seen in certain places, like the game where Chirine was subcontracted as the Bandit King (c) (tm) (reg us pat off).  It seems like tactics is simply unknown to a lot of people, and more, that using tactics against them is "unfair" somehow.

What it boils down to is the whole notion of "We're the player characters! CHARGE!" hits me like tinfoil on a filling.

The GM is discussing with me the possibility of being the 'on-call' opposition in the campaign, possibly in addition to my duties as The Bandit Chief - I am working on the regal aspect of the job, ala the classic domain game - and this is causing quite the stir amongst the players. They were truly in fear of their PC's lives, in the game we played, and I do wonder why. (It's not like I'm Georgie Patton or anything; far from it). I just seem to have a quite fearsome reputation, based on my ability to apply tactical lessons and by thinking outside the box. It does worry me a little; I don't to spoil the campaign for these people, as I do like them and the GM. I'm concerned that my way of thinking may be a little too alien to them, as I am normally playing for very different objectives with very different rules in a very different game. It seems that people have a very hard time getting that notion into their heads, and not simply asking. Like Don Vito Corleone... :)

But then, they might enjoy the challenge of a 'live opponent'... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 12, 2016, 05:58:29 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;924631
I've got two words for you: encounter level.

Ah. I call it 'scalable threat levels', which probably gives away where I got the notion.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 12, 2016, 09:28:46 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;924648
Ah. I call it 'scalable threat levels', which probably gives away where I got the notion.
An apothecary's scale? A dragon's scale? It didn't give it away to me.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 12, 2016, 09:58:27 PM
Quote from: Bren;924683
An apothecary's scale? A dragon's scale? It didn't give it away to me.

RAND, later SPI; Mr. Dunnigan drew on the former to create the latter. His books were quite the hot topic in gaming, back in ye olden daze, but I don't think that they may have aged well as they were based on the then-popular theories of the time. I frankly prefer Mr. Luttwak, myself, as he's a little more grounded in practical operational realities then Mr. Dunnigan seemed to be. As a theorist, though, I think he's still pretty useful.

These days, you'd be better off with Larry Bond's 'what if' scenario books; he does a very good job - especially in "Shattered Trident" - of explaining how theory can be translated into operational concepts.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 13, 2016, 12:13:19 AM
Yeah I totally missed that. I own and have played a fair few SPI games, though I'm not sure I've played on this century. RAND Corporation I'm more familiar with from the military industrial complex side of the fence rather than gaming per se.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 13, 2016, 05:25:28 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;924648
Ah. I call it 'scalable threat levels', which probably gives away where I got the notion.

It didn't give it to me, either. But I'm pretty sure that most of the people that would rely on all encounters being of an appropriate level would call it simply "encounter levels":).

And my point is that when you have decent odds of winning a level-appropriate encounter purely by virtue of your class features, and have reason to expect those encounters would be level-appropriate, you don't really need tactics;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 13, 2016, 08:52:46 AM
Scalable encounter and level appropriate encounter have different connotations for me.

Scalable is something I use more with numbers than with level.* So if the Cardinal's Guards are trying to capture or delay the PC King's Musketeers there might be a single Guard Lieutenant plus an additional 2 Average Cardinal's Guards per PC present. This presumes that whoever is sending out the Guards has some notion of how many PCs they are likely to face. I might also scale it more randomly by using an additional 1d3 Average Cardinal's Guards per PC present.



* Here I take level to mean not just levels in a D&D sense, but more broadly as a measure of the level of skill or competence of the opponent.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 13, 2016, 03:27:09 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;924729
It didn't give it to me, either. But I'm pretty sure that most of the people that would rely on all encounters being of an appropriate level would call it simply "encounter levels":).

And my point is that when you have decent odds of winning a level-appropriate encounter purely by virtue of your class features, and have reason to expect those encounters would be level-appropriate, you don't really need tactics;).

There's a lot of that.

Also, to be charitable, the meaning of "tactics" can include a great many things.  I see even a D&D combat as a small unit skirmish, so things like establishing a holding line, anchoring your flanks, watching behind you, and using light troops to exploit flanks are important.

If you think of combat as a series of one-on-one duels, though, "tactics" might mean
" You are using Bonetti’s Defense against me, ah?"
"I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain."
"Naturally, you must suspect me to attack with Capa Ferro?"
"Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels out Capa Ferro. Don’t you?"
"Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa… which I have."

Which is a perfectly defensible, but very, very different, use of the word "tactics."

What I really want is something to show the sharp deliniation between the tournament or dueling field and the battlefield; from a situation where some notion of honor and propriety holds as opposed to "kickin' and gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer."

Or to quote Lois McMaster Bujold's Curse of Chalion, “I don’t duel, boy. I kill as a soldier kills, which is as a butcher kills, as quickly, efficiently, and with as least risk to myself as I can arrange.”

(Chirine, you have GOT to read that)

And Tekumel, I'm happy to say, worked that way.  Korunme engaged with a fencing master to learn arruche, the art of two weapon fighting, and practiced diligently to become quite good at it.  But when the trumpets sounded and the battle began, it was "kill the other sons of bitches in the most expedient manner possible before they kill you."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 13, 2016, 06:57:57 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;924831
There's a lot of that.

Or to quote Lois McMaster Bujold's Curse of Chalion, “I don’t duel, boy. I kill as a soldier kills, which is as a butcher kills, as quickly, efficiently, and with as least risk to myself as I can arrange.”

(Chirine, you have GOT to read that)


I'd agree with you about this, my General. Which, I think, is why I don't play in game sessions anymore; the recent 'guest star appearance' in the D&D game at The Source was all of fifteen minutes, but it was a very wonderful fifteen minutes because there was nothing but "Get in there and save them, Chirine!" No game mechanics, no gaming politics, no real-world politics, and - in short - none of the crap I've been seeing go by the the past five years. Would I do it again? Probably; I've been invited back by the GM and the players as their guest. I think, like the people you and I know, they were both startled and impressed by a play style like that quote, and which I tend to describe as "Get in, get out, and get gone" or "Focus on the mission objective." My job, as somebody once said, "is to make the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." Hardly romantic, but it does mean I'm still alive.

I don't read much anymore, my General; I have gotten tired of being told that what I like in fiction is '-ist' of some sort; the TOR books thing about the authors I knew and loved pretty much killed my interest in the F/SF genre. It was pretty much the final nail in the coffin, the first ones being driven down hard by quite a few of the fans I've known over the years. I'm sure it's a good book, and I may have a look; likewise, I looked in on Lord Meren, and stayed - following the Eyes and Ears of the Pharaoh around Middle Kingdom Egypt was a lot of fun, with none of the need for whatever political correctness that seems to be a vital requirement for literature today. Being told what to read, what to watch, what to game, and what to think has been getting on my nerves for a while now, and when it killed my decade-old game group I didn't move to replace what I'd lost. Being told that my little miniature people were 'racist', 'obscene', 'misogynist', 'not real gaming!', and 'BadWrongFun!' just got old.

Sorry about the rant; not your fault! I'll look for the book, and let you know what I find.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 13, 2016, 07:27:29 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;924831
There's a lot of that.

Also, to be charitable, the meaning of "tactics" can include a great many things.  I see even a D&D combat as a small unit skirmish, so things like establishing a holding line, anchoring your flanks, watching behind you, and using light troops to exploit flanks are important.

If you think of combat as a series of one-on-one duels, though, "tactics" might mean
" You are using Bonetti’s Defense against me, ah?"
"I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain."
"Naturally, you must suspect me to attack with Capa Ferro?"
"Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels out Capa Ferro. Don’t you?"
"Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa… which I have."

Which is a perfectly defensible, but very, very different, use of the word "tactics."

Well, small-unit tactics and individual tactics have to differ, somehow, Glorious General:)!

Quote
What I really want is something to show the sharp deliniation between the tournament or dueling field and the battlefield; from a situation where some notion of honor and propriety holds as opposed to "kickin' and gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer."

I've been thinking more and more about introducing two combat systems in my homebrew: one for "social fights", which aim to establish dominance - and one for "hunting fights", which aim to kill or disable with minimum risk.
I'm not there yet, but it's hard to resist the temptation...

Quote
Or to quote Lois McMaster Bujold's Curse of Chalion, “I don’t duel, boy. I kill as a soldier kills, which is as a butcher kills, as quickly, efficiently, and with as least risk to myself as I can arrange.”

(Chirine, you have GOT to read that)

And Tekumel, I'm happy to say, worked that way.  Korunme engaged with a fencing master to learn arruche, the art of two weapon fighting, and practiced diligently to become quite good at it.  But when the trumpets sounded and the battle began, it was "kill the other sons of bitches in the most expedient manner possible before they kill you."

And that, Glorious General, is the difference between the two in a nutshell: duelling versus masacre. Even when both are done with swords, the difference in the underlying psychology makes even the technique different.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;924868

I don't read much anymore, my General; I have gotten tired of being told that what I like in fiction is '-ist' of some sort; the TOR books thing about the authors I knew and loved pretty much killed my interest in the F/SF genre.

I've been re-reading old French crime stories, classical legends and early pulp books lately. Luckily, other countries' authors aren't infected with the Extreme Correctness Syndrome, either.

H.R.Haggard didn't know what "political correctness" is; his protagonists, however, often behave more like what I'd term "decent human beings" than some propponents of said concept.

All I can do is shrug. Stupidity also comes and goes in waves. Sooner or later, this one, too, shall pass;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 14, 2016, 06:33:21 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;924873
I've been re-reading old French crime stories, classical legends and early pulp books lately. Luckily, other countries' authors aren't infected with the Extreme Correctness Syndrome, either.

H.R.Haggard didn't know what "political correctness" is; his protagonists, however, often behave more like what I'd term "decent human beings" than some propponents of said concept.

All I can do is shrug. Stupidity also comes and goes in waves. Sooner or later, this one, too, shall pass;).

Agreed; I do the same, and follow Gronan's "No gaming is better then bad gaming" advice. People (three 'old friends', to be specific) stopped being what you call 'decent human beings' in order to pursue their personal political ends, and made the game group a very uncomfortable and unhappy place for everyone else - including me. The trends in gaming and publishing I've seen get started of late add to my malaise, and about the only thing I still manage to do is get into the workshop and build a little something every now and then.

And I think you're right. This too shall pass; I survived the Satanic Panic, back in the day, and it would seem that I've out-lived most of the idiots that I've had to deal with over the years. Gaming, like F/SF fandom, is a version of 'short attention span theater' and there's be yet another sea change coming along in a few years...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 14, 2016, 08:42:57 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;924919
Agreed; I do the same, and follow Gronan's "No gaming is better then bad gaming" advice. People (three 'old friends', to be specific) stopped being what you call 'decent human beings' in order to pursue their personal political ends, and made the game group a very uncomfortable and unhappy place for everyone else - including me. The trends in gaming and publishing I've seen get started of late add to my malaise, and about the only thing I still manage to do is get into the workshop and build a little something every now and then.

And I think you're right. This too shall pass; I survived the Satanic Panic, back in the day, and it would seem that I've out-lived most of the idiots that I've had to deal with over the years. Gaming, like F/SF fandom, is a version of 'short attention span theater' and there's be yet another sea change coming along in a few years...


It is too bad that this sort of thinking seems to be at the forefront of many aspects of everyday life...

May years ago, on my first day of sixth grade my homeroom teacher had all of us sit down at the begining of class. He started by saying good morning and asking a question. Who can tell me what it says above the classroom door? We all looked above the door. We all looked at each other. We didn't see anything(in fact there was nothing written there). No body, he asked. Well let me tell you what it says then, COMMON COURTESY...common courtesy. Remember that when you enter this room he said. I never forgot that day. I have even asked my own children this same question. Thank you Mr Grasso. He was firm, but fair. He was also my math teacher...

H:0)

PS I am off my soapbox. I know all of you here already know this. I guess I just felt like sharing this important event in a then young man's life...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron Opal on October 14, 2016, 09:24:54 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;924831
Or to quote Lois McMaster Bujold's Curse of Chalion, “I don’t duel, boy. I kill as a soldier kills, which is as a butcher kills, as quickly, efficiently, and with as least risk to myself as I can arrange.”

(Chirine, you have GOT to read that)

I second the recommendation. Not only did I enjoy the book, but the series has the best... demonstration of how gods can have overwhelming power, but still have limitations. In particular where mortals are involved. The series are also a collection of connected but individual stories that have grown organically. This isn't a multi-tome epic tale, but rather a set of stories that illuminates parts of an interesting world.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 14, 2016, 09:38:42 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;924919
Agreed; I do the same, and follow Gronan's "No gaming is better then bad gaming" advice. People (three 'old friends', to be specific) stopped being what you call 'decent human beings' in order to pursue their personal political ends, and made the game group a very uncomfortable and unhappy place for everyone else - including me. The trends in gaming and publishing I've seen get started of late add to my malaise, and about the only thing I still manage to do is get into the workshop and build a little something every now and then.

And I think you're right. This too shall pass; I survived the Satanic Panic, back in the day, and it would seem that I've out-lived most of the idiots that I've had to deal with over the years. Gaming, like F/SF fandom, is a version of 'short attention span theater' and there's be yet another sea change coming along in a few years...

A few years at most, a few months are also possible:).

Also, if some trends in game publishing keep going the way they seem to, I'm going to start recording our sessions, and uploading them somewhere. A lot of people will have violent fits, I can predict:p!

Quote from: Hrugga;924927
It is too bad that this sort of thinking seems to be at the forefront of many aspects of everyday life...

May years ago, on my first day of sixth grade my homeroom teacher had all of us sit down at the begining of class. He started by saying good morning and asking a question. Who can tell me what it says above the classroom door? We all looked above the door. We all looked at each other. We didn't see anything(in fact there was nothing written there). No body, he asked. Well let me tell you what it says then, COMMON COURTESY...common courtesy. Remember that when you enter this room he said. I never forgot that day. I have even asked my own children this same question. Thank you Mr Grasso. He was firm, but fair. He was also my math teacher...

H:0)

PS I am off my soapbox. I know all of you here already know this. I guess I just felt like sharing this important event in a then young man's life...

Ah yes, common courtesy - the amazingly uncommon thing that saves you the need for having fast reflexes in ducking...:D
It was a good lesson. Alas, some people seem to have skipped that class entirely, and others insist on demanding common courtesy in an entirely uncourteous manner, thus defeating the entire point;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 16, 2016, 07:08:50 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;924927
It is too bad that this sort of thinking seems to be at the forefront of many aspects of everyday life...

May years ago, on my first day of sixth grade my homeroom teacher had all of us sit down at the begining of class. He started by saying good morning and asking a question. Who can tell me what it says above the classroom door? We all looked above the door. We all looked at each other. We didn't see anything(in fact there was nothing written there). No body, he asked. Well let me tell you what it says then, COMMON COURTESY...common courtesy. Remember that when you enter this room he said. I never forgot that day. I have even asked my own children this same question. Thank you Mr Grasso. He was firm, but fair. He was also my math teacher...

H:0)

PS I am off my soapbox. I know all of you here already know this. I guess I just felt like sharing this important event in a then young man's life...

I'd agree with this. I wish more people had had this moment...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 16, 2016, 07:09:31 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;924932
A few years at most, a few months are also possible:).

Also, if some trends in game publishing keep going the way they seem to, I'm going to start recording our sessions, and uploading them somewhere. A lot of people will have violent fits, I can predict:p!


Ah yes, common courtesy - the amazingly uncommon thing that saves you the need for having fast reflexes in ducking...:D
It was a good lesson. Alas, some people seem to have skipped that class entirely, and others insist on demanding common courtesy in an entirely uncourteous manner, thus defeating the entire point;).

All good points, and which I think need to be made every now and then...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 16, 2016, 07:16:11 PM
Well, I had an interesting experience last night; I was visiting with friends, and there was some sentiment in favor of my running a Tekumel campaign for the new folks - with the help of the old folks - and we got into a discussion of rules and systems. I pointed out that I don't think that the players need to worry about that too much; the number-crunching is my job, as this is still 'open sandbox' / 'free Kriegspiel' play. Which I then explained, and then did a little demo game session set in Barsoom for everyone. It all went very well - one of the potential players asked about 'classes', and I said "What do you want to be?". That sparked a discussion of world-settings, and 'immersive play' as I've seen it discussed.

It all went very well; I didn't get in until one in the morning, just in time to get a little sleep and then to meet for breakfast a old friend who was visiting the Twin Cities.

So, lots of gaming; the new trireme from TRE Games is on the slipway, and the beam clamps in full use. It's been a very good weekend... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 16, 2016, 07:29:54 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;925228
Well, I had an interesting experience last night; I was visiting with friends, and there was some sentiment in favor of my running a Tekumel campaign for the new folks - with the help of the old folks - and we got into a discussion of rules and systems. I pointed out that I don't think that the players need to worry about that too much; the number-crunching is my job, as this is still 'open sandbox' / 'free Kriegspiel' play. Which I then explained, and then did a little demo game session set in Barsoom for everyone. It all went very well - one of the potential players asked about 'classes', and I said "What do you want to be?". That sparked a discussion of world-settings, and 'immersive play' as I've seen it discussed.

It all went very well; I didn't get in until one in the morning, just in time to get a little sleep and then to meet for breakfast a old friend who was visiting the Twin Cities.

So, lots of gaming; the new trireme from TRE Games is on the slipway, and the beam clamps in full use. It's been a very good weekend... :)

Spiffy!  Anybody I know?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 17, 2016, 06:29:32 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;925228
Well, I had an interesting experience last night; I was visiting with friends, and there was some sentiment in favor of my running a Tekumel campaign for the new folks - with the help of the old folks - and we got into a discussion of rules and systems. I pointed out that I don't think that the players need to worry about that too much; the number-crunching is my job, as this is still 'open sandbox' / 'free Kriegspiel' play. Which I then explained, and then did a little demo game session set in Barsoom for everyone. It all went very well - one of the potential players asked about 'classes', and I said "What do you want to be?". That sparked a discussion of world-settings, and 'immersive play' as I've seen it discussed.

It all went very well; I didn't get in until one in the morning, just in time to get a little sleep and then to meet for breakfast a old friend who was visiting the Twin Cities.

So, lots of gaming; the new trireme from TRE Games is on the slipway, and the beam clamps in full use. It's been a very good weekend... :)

Sounds great! I was expecting a similar reaction when you meet a new group, sooner or later...
So, can I just say that it was about time?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on October 18, 2016, 05:47:40 PM
How much and what kind of traffic do you recall as being on the Sakbe roads?

Was it consistent or did it vary by region and/or season?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 18, 2016, 06:52:31 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;925231
Spiffy!  Anybody I know?


Saturday was the TFT group, Sunday was the guy who was sitting right in front of you at last year's Gary Con game, and you can see the trireme at the TRE Games website. It looks like a very nasty customer, even without the oars. (If I saw this thing coming at me, I'd be reaching for that dear old M-10 'Fist of Vimuhla' spell and no fooling around.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 18, 2016, 06:55:01 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;925291
Sounds great! I was expecting a similar reaction when you meet a new group, sooner or later...
So, can I just say that it was about time?

Agreed! I find myself with not one, but two groups forming, with a lot of interest in all three of the world-settings I support. I will keep you posted on what happens, of course.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 18, 2016, 07:14:28 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;925584
How much and what kind of traffic do you recall as being on the Sakbe roads?

Was it consistent or did it vary by region and/or season?
=

Lots and lots of traffic, usually getting heavier and heavier the closer one got to a town or city. It's like the US interstates or the UK motorways; out in the rural areas, traffic is usually pretty sparse and long-distance travelers. Lots of bulk haulers, too, near urban areas. It does vary by season and region; farming areas like around Hauma have huge traffic jams at harvest time, and the roads out of the great military bases like Khirgar, Tumissa, and Sokatis see huge military columns in campaign season. Jakalla has lots of traders' caravans going north; if they can't travel by the rivers or by the coastal shipping trade, then there's nothing for it but boot leather to the northwest and northeast. Bey Su, as you might assume, has lots of traffic both ways, with travelers and farm carts pretty well packed in together.

This is where tipping the road guards, who double as 'traffic cops', helps get one from place to place in a timely manner.

Traders prefer not to move a lot of bulk goods, but usually have high-value, low-weight / low-volume cargos in the backpacks of their bearers. Usually, traders will buy bearer slaves for long trips, with the idea of selling them at the end of the trip; this often results in the same slave doing long round trips, but under different owners. Bearers and carts may also be hired for shorter trips from the transport clans, as may ships and boats for water travel. Most people walk, but wealthy people have or hire palanquins so they won't have to.

My leaden alter ego is considered 'charmingly eccentric' because he hired our staff of bearers on long-term contracts; he does not own slaves, due to his part in the crushing of the slave revolt in Ferenara. The 'hired help' is still with him, and a new generation of 'contract bearers' is now starting work - and they all still send a portion of their pay back home to their clan in Meku. (And yes, they are all portrayed as miniatures, too.) The baggage train has a dozen bearers, a cart with driver (and his fiancee) to carry the tents and luggage, and a second cart and driver to carry fodder for the chlen. Additional 'short-term' bearers as needed, too. (Got the whole thing in miniature, I'm pleased to be able to say - including the cook fires and pots on stands, too. Our friends in the UK make the most amazing accessories for miniature figures!)

Does this help? More detail needed?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 18, 2016, 07:42:12 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;925614
More detail needed?
Show us lead Chirine's caravan enroute and in camp.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on October 19, 2016, 12:39:22 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;925614
More detail needed?
Yes. :)
1. Are there good drawings anywhere of these tri-level roads?
2. What's the short list of your mini suppliers?
3. Yes pictures of the whole entourage.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on October 19, 2016, 12:43:15 AM
Here's a question out of Left Field...

What are the demons in this Pocket Universe?  
Actual supernatural demons or some form of dimensional aliens?
Is there any sense of the Lovecraftian Mythos in Tekumel?
What about any real-world mythologies?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on October 19, 2016, 06:27:47 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;925614
Does this help? More detail needed?

Are Sakbe roads the only land way to get around? There are no secondary or smaller roads?
Assuming that Sakbe is not the roads, what about them? What quality? How heavily traveled? Well maintained? If so, by who?
If/when no roads, how easy is it to cut across an area? Farmers shooing you out of their fields for trampling their crops?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 19, 2016, 06:36:52 AM
Quote from: Bren;925618
Show us lead Chirine's caravan enroute and in camp.

:) It'll be this weekend, when I have the time to get them all out and set up. There are some photos on my Photobucket page of a 'vacation trip' with the whole household, and this might help.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 19, 2016, 06:43:39 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;925648
Yes. :)
1. Are there good drawings anywhere of these tri-level roads?
2. What's the short list of your mini suppliers?
3. Yes pictures of the whole entourage.

:)

1. You might find some on-line; we did some in the old 'zines, but I don't think you can get those anymore. Have a look, and I'll scan something in. There's photos of the Battle of Anch'ke on my Photobucket page, where we had a smaller Sakbe road.

2. Howard Fielding's The Tekumel Project; David Allen Designs, one of Howard's sculptors; Mike Burns and his Dark Fable Miniatures; David Soderberg and his Bronze Age Miniatures; Alex Bates and his Forge of Ice; Tim at TRE Games; Grand Manner in the UK; Steve Barbour, also in the UK; JR Miniatures; Old Glory Miniatures; Crocodile Games; Brigade Models, in the UK, for the Celtos line.

3. I'll take the photos; see previous post on the topic... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 19, 2016, 06:46:27 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;925649
Here's a question out of Left Field...

What are the demons in this Pocket Universe?  
Actual supernatural demons or some form of dimensional aliens?
Is there any sense of the Lovecraftian Mythos in Tekumel?
What about any real-world mythologies?

They are people pulled out of other pocket dimensions. I am a demon, in some of them, and it can get annoying to be summoned by some two-bit sorcerer. So, dimensional aliens. No, no sense of the Lovecraftian mythos, really, but we do have our suspicions about what/who the Gods really are. Yes, lots of local mythologies; see also the S&G I Sourcebook.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 19, 2016, 06:52:10 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;925688
Are Sakbe roads the only land way to get around? There are no secondary or smaller roads?
Assuming that Sakbe is not the roads, what about them? What quality? How heavily traveled? Well maintained? If so, by who?
If/when no roads, how easy is it to cut across an area? Farmers shooing you out of their fields for trampling their crops?
=

Oh, no; lots and lots of smaller roads, all the way down to the equivalent of the cowpath past the farm. There are 'trunk roads' in fiefs, which are maintained by the fief-holder; pretty much all of them are dirt roads outside of the towns. The local roads are sort of looked after by the locals, with clans providing occasional labor to fix the potholes and washouts. Traffic is rural, as you might surmise, with carts, flocks, and beasts. Think rural Egypt or India, here.

You can cut across open country with no fences or such, but cutting across a field full of crops is a no-no. The locals get upset, and you won't get any place to stay overnight. Get 'em really angry, and you get a mob.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: IceBlinkLuck on October 19, 2016, 08:53:49 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;925693
No, no sense of the Lovecraftian mythos, really, but we do have our suspicions about what/who the Gods really are.


Hey Chirine, long time lurker on the board as well as Tekumel fan.

So care to share some of your speculations? I've always been interested in the backstory of the Tekumel Deities and what they are under the masks and misdirection. Also, I've been reading the thread with great interest and enjoyment. Hopefully it will never end!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: IceBlinkLuck on October 19, 2016, 08:59:48 PM
Chirine? A follow up on road traffic if you don't mind.

Do the people of the Five Empires move livestock around much? Like are there herds of Hmelu ( I think that's the name of the sheep-like beast, but I'm not sure) on the sakbe roads being driven by some herdsman into the city for sale and slaughter? Or do the rural clans slaughter and preserve meats and then bring them to the cities? Just wondering if some travellers might get stuck behind a herd of beasts while moving from one city to another. Might lead to some humorous misadventures.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 19, 2016, 09:19:36 PM
Quote from: IceBlinkLuck;925809
Chirine? A follow up on road traffic if you don't mind.

Do the people of the Five Empires move livestock around much? Like are there herds of Hmelu ( I think that's the name of the sheep-like beast, but I'm not sure) on the sakbe roads being driven by some herdsman into the city for sale and slaughter? Or do the rural clans slaughter and preserve meats and then bring them to the cities? Just wondering if some travellers might get stuck behind a herd of beasts while moving from one city to another. Might lead to some humorous misadventures.

Remember the Sakbe roads have three levels.  Herd animals would be confined to the lowest level, or perhaps would travel on the ground next to the Road.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: IceBlinkLuck on October 19, 2016, 09:29:44 PM
Ahh, that makes sense. Coolness.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 20, 2016, 06:44:07 AM
Quote from: IceBlinkLuck;925804
Hey Chirine, long time lurker on the board as well as Tekumel fan.

So care to share some of your speculations? I've always been interested in the backstory of the Tekumel Deities and what they are under the masks and misdirection. Also, I've been reading the thread with great interest and enjoyment. Hopefully it will never end!

I didn't do a lot of speculating about the gods, myself; I tended, as a player, to leave that to the metaphysicians in the group. Once Phil had made his point in 'Ebon Bindings' that they are highly evolved t-planar beings, we kind of left it alone; for all practical purposes, it made no difference to us either as players or characters. I can look in my notes for you, though.

This highlights one of the issues that a lot of Tekumel fans had and still have with my original Thursday Night Group; we were so busy surviving in Phil's world that a lot of these issues and questions just never came up We 'played the world' as it was presented to us - as a golfer would say, 'we played it as it lay'...

This thread will go on for as long as people like you have questions... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 20, 2016, 06:44:38 AM
Quote from: IceBlinkLuck;925804
Hey Chirine, long time lurker on the board as well as Tekumel fan.

So care to share some of your speculations? I've always been interested in the backstory of the Tekumel Deities and what they are under the masks and misdirection. Also, I've been reading the thread with great interest and enjoyment. Hopefully it will never end!


I didn't do a lot of speculating about the gods, myself; I tended, as a player, to leave that to the metaphysicians in the group. Once Phil had made his point in 'Ebon Bindings' that they are highly evolved t-planar beings, we kind of left it alone; for all practical purposes, it made no difference to us either as players or characters. I can look in my notes for you, though.

This highlights one of the issues that a lot of Tekumel fans had and still have with my original Thursday Night Group; we were so busy surviving in Phil's world that a lot of these issues and questions just never came up We 'played the world' as it was presented to us - as a golfer would say, 'we played it as it lay'...

This thread will go on for as long as people like you have questions... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 20, 2016, 06:48:54 AM
Quote from: IceBlinkLuck;925809
Chirine? A follow up on road traffic if you don't mind.

Do the people of the Five Empires move livestock around much? Like are there herds of Hmelu ( I think that's the name of the sheep-like beast, but I'm not sure) on the sakbe roads being driven by some herdsman into the city for sale and slaughter? Or do the rural clans slaughter and preserve meats and then bring them to the cities? Just wondering if some travellers might get stuck behind a herd of beasts while moving from one city to another. Might lead to some humorous misadventures.

What Gronan said. Yes, to all of the above; the vast bulk of traffic on the Sakbe roads is on that lowest level, so it is indeed possible to have traffic jams. You pay extra to use the higher lane, and finding an 'on-ramp' has to wait for the next big tower. So all sorts of misadventures can occur.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on October 20, 2016, 12:26:02 PM
Some Sakbe Road links I found:
http://theminiaturespage.com/news/204687
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/145297/Sakbe-Road-Foamcore-Kit
http://bethorm.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/sakberoad_finished.jpg
https://rpgcharacters.wordpress.com/2016/02/19/gladecrest-village/
http://www.displacedminiatures.com/altfritz/gallery/2925/
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on October 20, 2016, 01:54:21 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;925865
I didn't do a lot of speculating about the gods, myself;

I have heard that this novel was involved.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 20, 2016, 05:47:58 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;925913
Some Sakbe Road links I found:
http://theminiaturespage.com/news/204687
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/145297/Sakbe-Road-Foamcore-Kit
http://bethorm.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/sakberoad_finished.jpg
https://rpgcharacters.wordpress.com/2016/02/19/gladecrest-village/
http://www.displacedminiatures.com/altfritz/gallery/2925/

Great finds! Thank you!

(My two sets of Sakbe road are the 'small' set for Anch'ke (about 140" long, about 12" wide) and the 'big' set, which is 14 feet long and 22" wide; that one is made up of modular sections, as it was intended for really big games. As Gronan will tell you, I like to build 'em big... :) )
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 20, 2016, 06:18:50 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;925927
I have heard that this novel was involved.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light
=

I think so, too; Phil got started back in the 1940s, so Jack Vance was a huge influence, but he did say he really liked this book. I think it really helped him articulate his views on how the 'gods' and 'demons' worked in his concept of how his world-setting functioned. I mean, Lovecraft was certainly an influence on him, but I think Vance and Smith were more of an influence originally and then this book came along.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on October 20, 2016, 08:25:36 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;925927
I have heard that this novel was involved.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light
=


One of my favourite authors. I hadn't made the Tekumel connection with LoL before; it makes sense. I need to reread this one.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on October 20, 2016, 10:33:55 PM
Chirine,

Out of curiosity how fast and manoeuvrable is a Hlyss hive ship versus say a typical Tsolyani "bireme", "trireme", "quinquereme", and single masted and double masted sailing ships? Would the hive ship be able to easily overtake or out run the above mentioned ship types? I know that the Hlyss rely upon "other" means of propulsion but know very little about its capabilities.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 21, 2016, 02:49:24 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;926033
Chirine,

Out of curiosity how fast and manoeuvrable is a Hlyss hive ship versus say a typical Tsolyani "bireme", "trireme", "quinquereme", and single masted and double masted sailing ships? Would the hive ship be able to easily overtake or out run the above mentioned ship types? I know that the Hlyss rely upon "other" means of propulsion but know very little about its capabilities.
 
Shemek

Very timely question - I just finished building the TRE Games 28mm trireme kit.

The Hlyss ships move by other-planar power, so it'd be like a steam ship vs. a sailing ship. A galley moves at about nine knots in any direction, so usually can dodge a nest ship - they seem to be able to go about five to eight knots - but sailing ships are entirely at the mercy of the wind. One can run downwind, but that's pretty much the only option. The nest ships are much less 'handy' then a galley, but much more nimble then a sailing ship.

 Does this help any?
Title: Photo of the column...
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 21, 2016, 02:56:29 AM
Let's see if this works...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]478[/ATTACH]

Assuming that is did, this is a bit of a posed shot; normally, the tents and 'camping gear' would have been all struck and packed in the carts by now. The right line of tents are, front to back, my old Legion tents, sleeping tents for the bearers, the cook tent, and the cart drivers' tent. Left, guard tent, more bearers' tents. Column, front to back, guides, bearers, carts; that's Poppa Chlen on the first cart, Cousin Chlen on the second, and Momma and Baby Chlen bringing up the rear.

Later on in my career, the baggage train got a lot bigger, and there were a lot more crates and chests. Which is why I preferred to travel by ship, when possible; more carrying capacity.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on October 21, 2016, 08:29:12 AM
That is awesome! Can you do a run down on the personalities?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on October 21, 2016, 10:37:32 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;926068
Very timely question - I just finished building the TRE Games 28mm trireme kit.

The Hlyss ships move by other-planar power, so it'd be like a steam ship vs. a sailing ship. A galley moves at about nine knots in any direction, so usually can dodge a nest ship - they seem to be able to go about five to eight knots - but sailing ships are entirely at the mercy of the wind. One can run downwind, but that's pretty much the only option. The nest ships are much less 'handy' then a galley, but much more nimble then a sailing ship.

 Does this help any?


Thanks Chirine! This was extremely helpful. My group will be embarking on some naval adventures soon and I am doing some background prep before the fun actually starts, or the mayhem ensues. :D I haven't done naval adventures for a very long time and want to "get things right".
Any chance of posting some pics of the trireme? This sounds like it will be a sight to behold.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 21, 2016, 03:25:37 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;926071
Let's see if this works...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]478[/ATTACH]

Assuming that is did, this is a bit of a posed shot; normally, the tents and 'camping gear' would have been all struck and packed in the carts by now. The right line of tents are, front to back, my old Legion tents, sleeping tents for the bearers, the cook tent, and the cart drivers' tent. Left, guard tent, more bearers' tents. Column, front to back, guides, bearers, carts; that's Poppa Chlen on the first cart, Cousin Chlen on the second, and Momma and Baby Chlen bringing up the rear.

Later on in my career, the baggage train got a lot bigger, and there were a lot more crates and chests. Which is why I preferred to travel by ship, when possible; more carrying capacity.


Now imagine the hoohah involved in marching with a legion of 8,000 troops.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 21, 2016, 05:32:45 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;926118
Thanks Chirine! This was extremely helpful. My group will be embarking on some naval adventures soon and I am doing some background prep before the fun actually starts, or the mayhem ensues. :D I haven't done naval adventures for a very long time and want to "get things right".
Any chance of posting some pics of the trireme? This sounds like it will be a sight to behold.

Shemek

Happy to help! I love nautical adventures; I still have all the models and plans that we used in Phil's games, and I still use them. Feel free to ask more questions as things develop, too!

I'll be doing a long post on the trireme build on my blog, but hopefully this will load...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]479[/ATTACH]

The thing is huge, about two feet long...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Atsuku Nare on October 21, 2016, 05:46:06 PM
Hey Chirine (and Gronan),

Does gunpowder work on Tekumel? Do the components even exist for it?

(I would imagine the Humanspace Empire would have been far far in advance of it with terraforming and ray-guns, but has anyone tried to recreate it? Or is it just a case of "nothing preventing it from working, but no one has re-invented it?")

Thanks!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 21, 2016, 05:51:07 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;926103
That is awesome! Can you do a run down on the personalities?


This was when I was on the way from Meku to Fasiltum; we'd just finished the Affair Of The Malchiran Emerald, and I was getting the goodies that Prince Mirusiya had promised me in Sunraya. We had been in Bey Su, where Vrisa and I parted company for the nonce, and had gone to Meku where I was inducted into the Clan of the Iron Helm and made a Lord. (Si N'te became Her Ladyship, of course. She didn't start marrying me off to her friends until Hekellu.) The rest of the party broke off to do other things, and we all met back up in Fasiltum to begin the march to Hekellu. This all coincided with one of the periodical shuffles of the original Thursday Night Groupl as old players dropped out for one reason or another and were replaced with new ones; we gamed for something like a dozen years, and people did come and go every few years as they had the time to play.

I hired the bearers on contract, as well as the two carts (with drivers; one was saving up to get married, and brought his fiancee - with the approval of her clan I might add). They came with a couple of guys who acted as guards, and there was a baggage master to run the whole circus. The local guide was hired as we went, and this usually changed every few days as we moved from one clan's 'territory' to the next. (The three urchins in front watching the procession are locals, and this changed everyday as we went along the road.)

Aside from me, they were all NPCs, and Phil (as was his usual custom) had me roll them all up - in S&G, which we were sort of using at the time - and I still have all of them in the files. Generally, NPCs didn't get 'real' names unless they were important to the plot line that Phil was following, or the person rolling them up wanted to do so - hence Dave Arneson's 'Staffswinger', 'Swordswinger', 'Fishface', and 'Hardtack' for his ship's officers. I tended to more 'period' names, out of Phil's database of people. In this case, I'd have to go back and look to see if we ever got past names 'Third Bearer'; we were generally just too busy to do a lot of this kind of book-keeping, as we were both Phil's players and his publishers. it was a hectic time. I did do little 'backstories' for them, based on their stats.

Do you want something more detailed then this?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 21, 2016, 05:54:15 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;926170
Now imagine the hoohah involved in marching with a legion of 8,000 troops.

Oh, for sure! This is what a single lower-ranked officer's baggage train would look like; the Glorious General's would be three or four times this big, and each cohort of 400 troops would have a similar train attached to them. The whole column would be several miles long, and we'd normally be on the ground next to the Sakbe road to keep the road clear for regular traffic.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 21, 2016, 06:10:52 PM
Quote from: Atsuku Nare;926198
Hey Chirine (and Gronan),

Does gunpowder work on Tekumel? Do the components even exist for it?

(I would imagine the Humanspace Empire would have been far far in advance of it with terraforming and ray-guns, but has anyone tried to recreate it? Or is it just a case of "nothing preventing it from working, but no one has re-invented it?")

Thanks!

Yes, it does, and it works just fine. You can get funny little noise-makers that make a crack when you pull the string, and all sorts of fun novelty items that do things when you light the touch-paper. The Temples of Hnalla, Thumis, Hry'y, and Ksarul will put on fun displays of this kind of thing for holidays and festivals; this kind of chemical know-how is something that they know about. I'd expect that the Tinaliya do as well, but they're not talking. The Temples of Karakan and Vimuhla eschew such vulgar displays, and have sorcerers put on shows for the big holidays.

It's been asked quite a lot over the years why the Tekumelyani don't use gunpowder in warfare, and the answer that Phil always gave is people like me; I am much, much more powerful and tactically mobile that any sort of black powder artillery could be; the next step up the escalation ladder from Yours Truly is a Lighting-Bringer. Phil always said that in his Tekumel it was a cultural thing, stemming as you posit from the weaponry of the Ancients; black powder weapons are long-forgotten, on a dead planet half a galaxy away.

Phil didn't like the black-powder era, and refused to game in it. Period. His contention was that it would stink up the house and leave dark stains on the carpet on his game table.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on October 21, 2016, 08:15:23 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;926196
Happy to help! I love nautical adventures; I still have all the models and plans that we used in Phil's games, and I still use them. Feel free to ask more questions as things develop, too!

I'll be doing a long post on the trireme build on my blog, but hopefully this will load...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]479[/ATTACH]

The thing is huge, about two feet long...



Wow, that looks impressive. Are you going to be painting and rigging it, all shipshape in Bristol fashion? Although I must say even unpainted it still looks very good.
I used to do a heck of a lot more ocean adventures back in "Myne Olden Days" but for one reason or another I haven't had one in my game for decades. I was looking at some of my old notes, and when I saw your posts on the blog and I was sold on the idea. I used to use simple deck plans which I would draw and colour by hand, no internet back then :eek:. I think I might have to pick up one of these triremes, especially if the group goes on an extended nautical trip. On that note, I think I'll go watch Master and Commander on what is currently a cold and rainy night in my neck of the woods.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 22, 2016, 01:11:42 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;926196
Happy to help! I love nautical adventures; I still have all the models and plans that we used in Phil's games, and I still use them. Feel free to ask more questions as things develop, too!

I'll be doing a long post on the trireme build on my blog, but hopefully this will load...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]479[/ATTACH]

The thing is huge, about two feet long...

Son of a BITCH!  I need a new hobby like I need a hole drilled crosswise through my pecker, but damn, that is SO tempting!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 22, 2016, 01:12:56 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;926201
Oh, for sure! This is what a single lower-ranked officer's baggage train would look like; the Glorious General's would be three or four times this big, and each cohort of 400 troops would have a similar train attached to them. The whole column would be several miles long, and we'd normally be on the ground next to the Sakbe road to keep the road clear for regular traffic.

And three months later in the middle of Milumaniya we're reduced to boiling and eating the leather cloaks of the desert tribesmen we killed when they tried to ambush us...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 22, 2016, 01:13:43 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;926203
Yes, it does, and it works just fine. You can get funny little noise-makers that make a crack when you pull the string, and all sorts of fun novelty items that do things when you light the touch-paper. The Temples of Hnalla, Thumis, Hry'y, and Ksarul will put on fun displays of this kind of thing for holidays and festivals; this kind of chemical know-how is something that they know about. I'd expect that the Tinaliya do as well, but they're not talking. The Temples of Karakan and Vimuhla eschew such vulgar displays, and have sorcerers put on shows for the big holidays.

It's been asked quite a lot over the years why the Tekumelyani don't use gunpowder in warfare, and the answer that Phil always gave is people like me; I am much, much more powerful and tactically mobile that any sort of black powder artillery could be; the next step up the escalation ladder from Yours Truly is a Lighting-Bringer. Phil always said that in his Tekumel it was a cultural thing, stemming as you posit from the weaponry of the Ancients; black powder weapons are long-forgotten, on a dead planet half a galaxy away.

Phil didn't like the black-powder era, and refused to game in it. Period. His contention was that it would stink up the house and leave dark stains on the carpet on his game table.

Again, he's not kidding, folks.  Phil had a total aversion to anything after about 1300 AD.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 22, 2016, 04:46:25 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;926217
Wow, that looks impressive. Are you going to be painting and rigging it, all shipshape in Bristol fashion? Although I must say even unpainted it still looks very good.
I used to do a heck of a lot more ocean adventures back in "Myne Olden Days" but for one reason or another I haven't had one in my game for decades. I was looking at some of my old notes, and when I saw your posts on the blog and I was sold on the idea. I used to use simple deck plans which I would draw and colour by hand, no internet back then :eek:. I think I might have to pick up one of these triremes, especially if the group goes on an extended nautical trip. On that note, I think I'll go watch Master and Commander on what is currently a cold and rainy night in my neck of the woods.

Shemek


Thank you! She'll get some rigging, but I tend not to put a lot of rigging onto game models as it gets damaged and in the way. So, detachable links and stout cord, and just enough to give the idea to players. The ship will get a coat of varnish and painted details; I'm using the Hellenic Navy's "Olympias" as my reference here. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympias_(trireme) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympias_(trireme))

I drew up the plans for all our ships, back in the day, and we also used "Sea Steeds and Wave Riders" (Judges' Guild) and the plans from "Bireme and Galley" (Fantasy Games Unlimited). I laminated the plans onto foam core board, and I still have and use the ships' plans to this day. I also got a bunch of the 1/900 and 1/1200 ships from Valiant and C-in-C to use for larger actions; you've seen some of the photos of my little fleet of 28mm ships.

Nautical adventures are a lot of fun; they offer decent food and housing, and the adventures tend to come to you... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 22, 2016, 04:54:35 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;926263
Son of a BITCH!  I need a new hobby like I need a hole drilled crosswise through my pecker, but damn, that is SO tempting!


Have a look at the TRE Games website: //www.tregames.com/ (http:////www.tregames.com/)

Tim makes stuff for a lot of your gaming interests, and the kits are both very reasonably priced and easy to assemble. You may faint when you look at his blog - on the website - and see the Viking longship. I am particularly enthused with the furniture, myself, and the working/practical spiral staircases.

The trireme looks a killer. She's about half as long as "Olympias", but a really nasty man would take two of these kits and kit-bash a really decent model of the Greeks' newest oldest ship. looks even better with the sixty (!) oars in the water...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 22, 2016, 04:56:10 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;926264
And three months later in the middle of Milumaniya we're reduced to boiling and eating the leather cloaks of the desert tribesmen we killed when they tried to ambush us...


Could have been worse. We could have been eating the tribesmen. Supply was, shall we say, 'challenging'.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 22, 2016, 04:58:17 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;926266
Again, he's not kidding, folks.  Phil had a total aversion to anything after about 1300 AD.

Yep. Absolute ban. No exceptions. Energy weapons were all right, as they were nice and clean.
Title: A thoughtful moment, if I may...
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 22, 2016, 05:05:39 AM
First off, thank you all for the kind words about my little group of bearers and the trireme. I've been thinking about them and you for a bit, and i'd like to make an observation if I may...

Back in the day, at the Conflict Simulation Association meetings, this kind of modeling in gaming was very popular. A GM prided himself on doing stuff like this to amaze, amuse, and delight the players - no matter the period or the scenario or the genre, we'd do this kind of thing 'just because'. We thought it added a lot to our games, and really increased what the toy designers call 'play value'. It was fun, both to make and to play. Like the time the Japanese destroyer ran into the Japanese minefield - handful of BBs dropped onto deep blue velvet, and oh! the pandemonium.

I dunno; we just liked doing it. I'm glad to be able to share it with you. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on October 22, 2016, 09:48:58 AM
How many "Top Clans" do you think there are/were and did/do you know of all of them?

I ask because it seems to me that in a game that is/was heavily social this would be critical (for at least the GM).
Who "matters" and how close to them the person/people you are currently dealing with seems very important.

Do/did you have a "connection map" on paper or in your head?
If not of the specific people then at least of the clans and their spheres of influence.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 22, 2016, 02:45:53 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;926309
How many "Top Clans" do you think there are/were and did/do you know of all of them?

I ask because it seems to me that in a game that is/was heavily social this would be critical (for at least the GM).
Who "matters" and how close to them the person/people you are currently dealing with seems very important.

Do/did you have a "connection map" on paper or in your head?
If not of the specific people then at least of the clans and their spheres of influence.
=

Empire-wide, or locally? In general, there are about a dozen really high-status clans, and they do have varying spheres of influence. Usually, it's the 'Engsvanyali nobility' clans that are the highest, with the 'Bednjallan noblity' clans right behind them. The Vriddi are older, of course, and sort of in the upper-high category; they do get looked down on by the Bey Su and Jakallan high clans, though. Yes, I used to know all of them off the top of my head, but this was because I was playing all the time; now, it'd take a quick glance at the Sourcebook to get them right and in order. The Tlakotani, by the way, are not an upper-high clan; outside of the Imperial lineage, they tend to be small-holder farmers outside Bey Su and Imperial officials. The one clan that is totally outside the status system is the tiny and very secretive clan of puppeteers, who are quite firmly dated back to the time of the Priest-kings and before; they are considered so noble and high status that they are deferred to by everybody. Nobody messes with them, either; one guy in Bey Su who did was found dead with a lot of little wounds from what seemed to be miniature weapons - the his room was still locked from the inside, too.

Agreed! The way Phil played his world, this was very important and we learned very quickly to gauge people and their relative status. I think the hardest thing for gamers to learn about Tekumel is that one is part of a society that has very real rules and mores, and very powerful sanctions to use on those who don't play by those rules. 'Murderhobos' need not apply; one can certainly be a ruthless adventurer - see also my career - but one has do do it in the context of the society one lives in. See also the greatest compliment I ever got from Phil: "Chirine, you've gone native."

Yes, I do. I suppose I could put it on paper - a big whiteboard would be better.

Is this any sort of good answer for you? I worry...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 22, 2016, 02:46:27 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;926309
How many "Top Clans" do you think there are/were and did/do you know of all of them?

I ask because it seems to me that in a game that is/was heavily social this would be critical (for at least the GM).
Who "matters" and how close to them the person/people you are currently dealing with seems very important.

Do/did you have a "connection map" on paper or in your head?
If not of the specific people then at least of the clans and their spheres of influence.
=

Empire-wide, or locally? In general, there are about a dozen really high-status clans, and they do have varying spheres of influence. Usually, it's the 'Engsvanyali nobility' clans that are the highest, with the 'Bednjallan nobility' clans right behind them. The Vriddi are older, of course, and sort of in the upper-high category; they do get looked down on by the Bey Su and Jakallan high clans, though. Yes, I used to know all of them off the top of my head, but this was because I was playing all the time; now, it'd take a quick glance at the Sourcebook to get them right and in order. The Tlakotani, by the way, are not an upper-high clan; outside of the Imperial lineage, they tend to be small-holder farmers outside Bey Su and Imperial officials. The one clan that is totally outside the status system is the tiny and very secretive clan of puppeteers, who are quite firmly dated back to the time of the Priest-kings and before; they are considered so noble and high status that they are deferred to by everybody. Nobody messes with them, either; one guy in Bey Su who did was found dead with a lot of little wounds from what seemed to be miniature weapons -and his room was still locked from the inside, too.

Agreed! The way Phil played his world, this was very important and we learned very quickly to gauge people and their relative status. I think the hardest thing for gamers to learn about Tekumel is that one is part of a society that has very real rules and mores, and very powerful sanctions to use on those who don't play by those rules. 'Murderhobos' need not apply; one can certainly be a ruthless adventurer - see also my career - but one has do do it in the context of the society one lives in. See also the greatest compliment I ever got from Phil: "Chirine, you've gone native."

Yes, I do. I suppose I could put it on paper - a big whiteboard would be better.

Is this any sort of good answer for you? I worry...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on October 22, 2016, 03:22:45 PM
Chirine,

Continuing with some other naval questions, how was/is magical combat handled at sea? Specifically, did Naval Battle Magic operate in the same way as Battle Magic would on land, i.e. would there be groups of mages casting in unison, offensive and defensive spells? Also, what would the range/area of effect of the spells be at sea; would you use the same ones provided in the EPT spell descriptions, or some other listing?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 22, 2016, 03:34:01 PM
Viz rigging, have you tried the elastic thread that's sold for stringing telegraph wires on model railroads?  Same idea, prevents devastation when this huge giant reaches into the scene to open the coupler.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 22, 2016, 06:43:11 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;926345
Chirine,

Continuing with some other naval questions, how was/is magical combat handled at sea? Specifically, did Naval Battle Magic operate in the same way as Battle Magic would on land, i.e. would there be groups of mages casting in unison, offensive and defensive spells? Also, what would the range/area of effect of the spells be at sea; would you use the same ones provided in the EPT spell descriptions, or some other listing?

Shemek


This topic created a very lively and interesting discussion between Zirunel and I over on the Tekumel Yahoo group; I strongly recommend his booklet on naval matters( downloadable from his blog), by the way. He, quite logically, raised the question of why there isn't a corpora of longer-ranged naval spells, reaching out beyond the usual range of battlefield spells. I replied that for Phil, his model of naval warfare was the Greek-Roman one, especially as seen in the movies "Ben Hur" and "Cleopatra"; since spells are limited to line-of-sight, and pretty much as far as an unaided human eye can see, there's no real way (in Tekumelyani terms) to come up with more effective 'naval artillery'. Spells are limited out to a kilometer or two, at least in Phil's usual practice. he rule of thumb was that "if you can see it, you can try to hit it". Phil was quite upfront that sorcery is not the decisive weapon in battle; it's usually people at close quarters in melee.

Having said that, yes, you can have a legion's magic users afloat, but they aren't going to be all that effective; the ship's deck is tossing around, and the crew is messing about with the ropes, so the kind of group sorcery you'd see on land may be there but not very good - a lot of missed saving throws, if you like. They'd also be grouped on one larger ship, probably the squadron flagship.

For personal magic, use EPT as is; that's what Phil did, as you read about in my sinking of the pursuing nest ship. For larger scale battles, try my set of miniatures rules or Dave Sutherland's "Legions". These work better with the small scale ships; EPT works better with 28mm ships.

And don't think I haven't thought of a 28mm scale large sea fight; I have a 100' tape measure, and I know how to use it. Give me a stout ship, a big enough floor, and a moon to steer by... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on October 22, 2016, 06:43:45 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;926339
. The one clan that is totally outside the status system is the tiny and very secretive clan of puppeteers, who are quite firmly dated back to the time of the Priest-kings and before; they are considered so noble and high status that they are deferred to by everybody. Nobody messes with them, either; one guy in Bey Su who did was found dead with a lot of little wounds from what seemed to be miniature weapons - the his room was still locked from the inside, too.


:confused: I think I read something about this clan once long ago, but can't recall exactly what it was... Could you elaborate on this please?


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 22, 2016, 06:48:57 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;926347
Viz rigging, have you tried the elastic thread that's sold for stringing telegraph wires on model railroads?  Same idea, prevents devastation when this huge giant reaches into the scene to open the coupler.


Yes, I did. The issue is that the pesky player-characters (as Phil was wont to describe us) tend to ruin the rigging by blasting away the masts and yards, causing a huge mess on deck and over the side. I used to build my ships with fixed masts and yards, but now everything is removable both for ease in transport and for better access in play. I'm going back and refitting the older ships to this standard, as well, but it does take time (and brass tubing) so I'm still in the process.

See also Chirine's First Law Of Miniatures: "No matter how well you detail or paint the thing, you'll always be able to find somebody who can drop it on the floor for you."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 22, 2016, 07:06:25 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;926382
:confused: I think I read something about this clan once long ago, but can't recall exactly what it was... Could you elaborate on this please?


Shemek


They are the Clan of the Striding Incantation, and they do the little (and presumably magical) puppets that can be see at very high-class parties in the major cities. The puppets act out epic tales and funny comedies, and while a puppeteer is present, they never touch or manipulate the puppets in any physical way. It is considered a huge mark of high social status to get them to come and perform at one's party; they do not accept casual invitations, and you really do have to 'be somebody' and of a very good and respectable clan to have them even reply to you. They will do public performances, on very high holidays, and people will come for hundreds of miles to see the puppets perform. Nobody knows how they do any of this; it's an ancient secret of the clan. There is a faint aura of sorcery around after one of their performances, but that's all anyone knows. For that matter, nobody knows what gods they worship, either; they are very private, and very secretive.

Unique amongst clans, their clan colors are the Engsvanyali imperial white and gold, with trims in regional colors - but no deity colors that anyone knows about. Howard Fielding did a wonderful set of a puppeteer, puppets, and delighted children by the way.

They are considered to be inviolate, as they were a feature of the Priest-Kings court on Ganga, and nobody with any brains treats them rudely or improperly. They are a very tiny clan, but have very powerful friends at all levels of society. Messing with them is usually considered to be a huge insult to society as a whole, and society tends to react very badly to the insult.

When I was Governor of Hekellu, we had an incident of this sort, and I simply dropped by the offender's clan house with my guards and the local heads of the Black Y Society and Ndalu Clans. The problem was dealt with in short order, and the offender was last seen heading for Pechano to help you fight the Ssu. I think they might have given him a dagger, too, but he certainly left town in a very real hurry...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on October 22, 2016, 10:43:01 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;926339
Yes, I do. I suppose I could put it on paper - a big whiteboard would be better.

Is this any sort of good answer for you? I worry...


It seems like one of the things that would be in all the supplements and I just haven't seen enough of.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 23, 2016, 06:52:13 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;926416
It seems like one of the things that would be in all the supplements and I just haven't seen enough of.
=

Agreed. We learned  lot about this from Phil as we went along, but it certainly didn't make it into the published literature - back in our time, and continuing up to now, the emphasis has been on the very 'gamey' aspects of Tekumel. Monsters, new character classes, game mechanics, and rules have dominated the discussions over the years, and social activities like this have tended not to have 'legs' with gamers. No interest by what has been the bulk of the audience meant no publication, as the financial barriers to publishing have been so high until now.

I'm fascinated by your comment; "To Serve The Petal Throne" has a lot of this exact kind of material in it, as this was a very important part of our games with Phil. And it may be why the folks over on the Tekumel Yahoo group don't like it, as it does not have any system- or rules- specific material in it. You get me sitting down and talking to a clan elder, not a set of tables for gaming that encounter. Self-described 'OSR people', over the years, have been all about rules and mechanics and not a lot about the world-setting; we, on the other hand, were all about the world-setting and not very much about the rules or mechanics.

So, in some sense, what we did in the original Thursday Night Group does not seem to resonate much with the larger gaming hobby; I've been told that we're 'irrelevant' to gaming, as we didn't generate enough rules and mechanics and did too much cultural stuff. That may be as is, but I'm writing an account of our adventures, not an RPG. I figure that people reading the thing can do their own games - as Phil said, "Here's my Tekumel, now make it yours..."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on October 23, 2016, 11:45:14 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;926381

1.This topic created a very lively and interesting discussion between Zirunel and I over on the Tekumel Yahoo group; I strongly recommend his booklet on naval matters( downloadable from his blog), by the way. He, quite logically, raised the question of why there isn't a corpora of longer-ranged naval spells, reaching out beyond the usual range of battlefield spells. I replied that for Phil, his model of naval warfare was the Greek-Roman one, especially as seen in the movies "Ben Hur" and "Cleopatra"; since spells are limited to line-of-sight, and pretty much as far as an unaided human eye can see, there's no real way (in Tekumelyani terms) to come up with more effective 'naval artillery'. Spells are limited out to a kilometer or two, at least in Phil's usual practice. he rule of thumb was that "if you can see it, you can try to hit it". Phil was quite upfront that sorcery is not the decisive weapon in battle; it's usually people at close quarters in melee.

2.Having said that, yes, you can have a legion's magic users afloat, but they aren't going to be all that effective; the ship's deck is tossing around, and the crew is messing about with the ropes, so the kind of group sorcery you'd see on land may be there but not very good - a lot of missed saving throws, if you like. They'd also be grouped on one larger ship, probably the squadron flagship.

3.For personal magic, use EPT as is; that's what Phil did, as you read about in my sinking of the pursuing nest ship. For larger scale battles, try my set of miniatures rules or Dave Sutherland's "Legions". These work better with the small scale ships; EPT works better with 28mm ships.

4.And don't think I haven't thought of a 28mm scale large sea fight; I have a 100' tape measure, and I know how to use it. Give me a stout ship, a big enough floor, and a moon to steer by... :)


Chirine,

1. Is that the Naval Warfare on Tekumel primer? If so I've looked at it and I was quite impressed with it. Very, very well done.
In the past I handled naval combat (ship to ship) along the same lines as Phil did, drawing heavily from the EPT Mass Combat rules and using Ben Hur as my primary inspiration. As a DM I really didn't want to have a situation where ships were being sunk from 2+ km away. For me this would be kind of boring and useless from an RPG point of view, unless it were a one off "Saturday Night Special" situation.
The reason I asked was to see if anything was out there that had been used and would offer a better and simpler way of resolving large scale naval battles. I have been working on a simple set of squadron/fleet rules for my game that I hope to try out soon, but if something already exists and works well why re-invent the wheel?

2. That makes sense. I don't see triremes as being the most stable of platforms.

3. Makes sense. EPT is a very flexible system and one that I have had a lot of success adapting and modifying over the years. I currently use a home brew magic system for my games that consists of the EPT rules, with the S&G spell lists (converted to EPT), and a fair amount of 1e AD&D spells as well (which, not surprisingly, required a hell of a lot less work to bring over to the EPT rules).
Unfortunately, getting a hold of the rules you mentioned is difficult and or expensive. I missed them the first time around and have been on the look out for them, at a reasonable price, for years. I'll just have to wait until you release the updated 2nd edition of Qadradalikoi.

4. I'd love to see that, and be a participant. Sounds like it would be  an absolute blast!

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on October 23, 2016, 12:07:23 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;926384
They are the Clan of the Striding Incantation, and they do the little (and presumably magical) puppets that can be see at very high-class parties in the major cities. The puppets act out epic tales and funny comedies, and while a puppeteer is present, they never touch or manipulate the puppets in any physical way. It is considered a huge mark of high social status to get them to come and perform at one's party; they do not accept casual invitations, and you really do have to 'be somebody' and of a very good and respectable clan to have them even reply to you. They will do public performances, on very high holidays, and people will come for hundreds of miles to see the puppets perform. Nobody knows how they do any of this; it's an ancient secret of the clan. There is a faint aura of sorcery around after one of their performances, but that's all anyone knows. For that matter, nobody knows what gods they worship, either; they are very private, and very secretive.

Unique amongst clans, their clan colors are the Engsvanyali imperial white and gold, with trims in regional colors - but no deity colors that anyone knows about. Howard Fielding did a wonderful set of a puppeteer, puppets, and delighted children by the way.

They are considered to be inviolate, as they were a feature of the Priest-Kings court on Ganga, and nobody with any brains treats them rudely or improperly. They are a very tiny clan, but have very powerful friends at all levels of society. Messing with them is usually considered to be a huge insult to society as a whole, and society tends to react very badly to the insult.

When I was Governor of Hekellu, we had an incident of this sort, and I simply dropped by the offender's clan house with my guards and the local heads of the Black Y Society and Ndalu Clans. The problem was dealt with in short order, and the offender was last seen heading for Pechano to help you fight the Ssu. I think they might have given him a dagger, too, but he certainly left town in a very real hurry...

Thanks for the information. This sounds like fun. I've saved this message to the campaign file for future use in the game.

Pechano you say, huh? Well next time I go to Mechaneno I'll be sure and have a quite word with the Chaegosh about him. If you would be so kind as to send the particulars I'll make certain that he is included in the next expedition into Ssuyal, positioned right in the most prestigious front rank. I think this would be suitable for such a noble person. Ne? ;)  

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 23, 2016, 12:13:18 PM
From Shemek hiTankolel -

1. Is that the Naval Warfare on Tekumel primer? If so I've looked at it and I was quite impressed with it. Very, very well done.

Yes, that's it. I think that it is the definitive work on the subject, myself; very carefully researched, and very accurately written.

In the past I handled naval combat (ship to ship) along the same lines as Phil did, drawing heavily from the EPT Mass Combat rules and using Ben Hur as my primary inspiration. As a DM I really didn't want to have a situation where ships were being sunk from 2+ km away. For me this would be kind of boring and useless from an RPG point of view, unless it were a one off "Saturday Night Special" situation.
The reason I asked was to see if anything was out there that had been used and would offer a better and simpler way of resolving large scale naval battles. I have been working on a simple set of squadron/fleet rules for my game that I hope to try out soon, but if something already exists and works well why re-invent the wheel?


Agreed. I can always play "Harpoon" or "Clear For Action", if I want long-range mayhem. Phil just didn't think his world worked that way, and kept telling us to see the movies if we wanted to know how it worked. He loved the battle of Actium, in the "Cleopatra" epic, although he regarded the rest of the movie as a not-very-historical 'guilty pleasure'.

I've used both "Bireme and Galley" from FUG as well as a set of historical rules "Naumachi" (I think; spelling might be off) for the ship handling; "Qadardalikoi" has very simple rules, which is one of the reasons why I'm redoing them. Alva Hardison also has a set of naval rules in the works, I'm told.

I like to have the players move their ships around on a big sheet of plotting paper, plotting their courses and using the small-scale ships I have. Once they get into boarding range, then the big ships get put out on the main table. Seems to work, especially when the players forget that the sailing ships don't have brakes. Now that I have the ocean tiles for the game table (see my blog about this) I'll be doing the small scale actions on these. The TRE Games small (1/900?) biremes and triremes are perfect for this. (I like the JR Miniatures islands for this, as well; lots of 'terrain' to hide behind and oar out to pounce on the unwary...)

2. That makes sense. I don't see triremes as being the most stable of platforms.

This is constantly being talked about in the reports of the sea trials of "Olympias", where the rowing crew keeps yelling at the people on deck to sit down and stay still; apparently, the movement of as few one or two of the soliders on deck will cause the ship to heel, causing the rowers to lose the stroke.

Lots of footage of "Olympias" on YouTube, too.

3. Makes sense. EPT is a very flexible system and one that I have had a lot of success adapting and modifying over the years. I currently use a home brew magic system for my games that consists of the EPT rules, with the S&G spell lists (converted to EPT), and a fair amount of 1e AD&D spells as well (which, not surprisingly, required a hell of a lot less work to bring over to the EPT rules).

This is exactly what Phil did in our games, and I still do.

Unfortunately, getting a hold of the rules you mentioned is difficult and or expensive. I missed them the first time around and have been on the look out for them, at a reasonable price, for years. I'll just have to wait until you release the updated 2nd edition of Qadradalikoi.

Let me dig around; now that my entire set of archives is digitized, I have spare paper copies of everything. I'll also see how to get an electronic copy of the manuscript to you, as I certainly can use play-testers!

4. I'd love to see that, and be a participant. Sounds like it would be  an absolute blast!

Naval battles have always been screamingly funny affairs, and I think this one would top them all for sheer fun. If somebody ever organized 'Chirine Con', it'd be one of the main events. Such would be my opinion, anyway.

My all time favorite (to date) naval fight was between a Tsolyani and a Mu'uglavyani squadron off Ngashtu Head. I would not allow table talk, but gave the two sides sets of map flags and brass wire for their signal halyards. The result was utter chaos, as one side did not distribute written copies of the flag codes that they were using to their ships' captains. The results were simply beyond my imagination.

(I have a post up today on my blog about building the TRE Games trireme, by the way...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 23, 2016, 12:14:30 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;926462
Thanks for the information. This sounds like fun. I've saved this message to the campaign file for future use in the game.

Pechano you say, huh? Well next time I go to Mechaneno I'll be sure and have a quite word with the Chaegosh about him. If you would be so kind as to send the particulars I'll make certain that he is included in the next expedition into Ssuyal, positioned right in the most prestigious front rank. I think this would be suitable for such a noble person. Ne? ;)  

Shemek

You're welcome! I'll look up the particulars and get them to you.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on October 23, 2016, 12:26:48 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;926440
Agreed. We learned  lot about this from Phil as we went along, but it certainly didn't make it into the published literature - back in our time, and continuing up to now, the emphasis has been on the very 'gamey' aspects of Tekumel. Monsters, new character classes, game mechanics, and rules have dominated the discussions over the years, and social activities like this have tended not to have 'legs' with gamers. No interest by what has been the bulk of the audience meant no publication, as the financial barriers to publishing have been so high until now.

I'm fascinated by your comment; "To Serve The Petal Throne" has a lot of this exact kind of material in it, as this was a very important part of our games with Phil. And it may be why the folks over on the Tekumel Yahoo group don't like it, as it does not have any system- or rules- specific material in it. You get me sitting down and talking to a clan elder, not a set of tables for gaming that encounter. Self-described 'OSR people', over the years, have been all about rules and mechanics and not a lot about the world-setting; we, on the other hand, were all about the world-setting and not very much about the rules or mechanics.

So, in some sense, what we did in the original Thursday Night Group does not seem resonate much with the larger gaming hobby; I've been told that we're 'irrelevant' to gaming, as we didn't generate enough rules and mechanics and did too much cultural stuff. That may be as is, but I'm writing an account of our adventures, not an RPG. I figure that people reading the thing can do their own games - as Phil said, "Here's my Tekumel, now make it yours..."




Different strokes for different folks I guess.  I also am far more interested in the setting than any particular rule-set or game mechanic.  I use EPT and AD&D, (and now LotFP) simply because the players in my group are most comfortable with these type of gaming mechanics. In my experience, and opinion, any set of game rules can be used to run a campaign on Tekumel. All that's needed is a bit of tweaking. Personally, I think that as far as Tekumel goes rules really should be of secondary concern. As for relevance, well this thread clearly disproves that assertion.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 23, 2016, 12:35:41 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;926468
Different strokes for different folks I guess.  I also am far more interested in the setting than any particular rule-set or game mechanic.  I use EPT and AD&D, (and now LotFP) simply because the players in my group are most comfortable with these type of gaming mechanics. In my experience, and opinion, any set of game rules can be used to run a campaign on Tekumel. All that's needed is a bit of tweaking. Personally, I think that as far as Tekumel goes rules really should be of secondary concern. As for relevance, well this thread clearly disproves that assertion.

Shemek


Agreed. It's what works as play style in the group, I think. And you're right; any set of RPG rules will do just fine, I think, which is why I don't much worry about them.

Re relevance, I would hope so. I'm hoping that people can take away some stuff that they can use in their campaigns, no matter what the world-setting might be. Or, to mis-quote a previous poster, "Over 80,000 views of this bullshit? Really?" :)

Gronan and I are survivors of a time and place in gaming history when game play was the thing, and fun games the objective; how we got there was nowhere nearly as important as the journey. As I've said before, I'll be here to answer questions as long as people want to ask them. What you do with the answers is really up to you...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on October 23, 2016, 01:02:43 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;926470

Gronan and I are survivors of a time and place in gaming history when game play was the thing, and fun games the objective; how we got there was nowhere nearly as important as the journey. As I've said before, I'll be here to answer questions as long as people want to ask them. What you do with the answers is really up to you...

And, at the risk of repeating myself again,  this is why this thread is so valuable as a resource. You and the Glorious General were boots (sandals?) on the ground and are a wealth of information. For me I love getting different perspectives on things. Why not find out how you guys played out the battle of Tikrit(sp?), or how Captain Harchar tricked rulers of Mihallu into believing that he was sent by the Priest Kings? If my group is in a similar situation will we, or must we do it the same way? Of course not, but hearing how it was first done is wonderful nevertheless.

BTW, have you seen the Valiant Miniatures 1/900 pewter biremes, triremes, etc? They look like they would be quite nice for fleet battles.  

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 23, 2016, 01:22:45 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;926481
And, at the risk of repeating myself again,  this is why this thread is so valuable as a resource. You and the Glorious General were boots (sandals?) on the ground and are a wealth of information. For me I love getting different perspectives on things. Why not find out how you guys played out the battle of Tikrit(sp?), or how Captain Harchar tricked rulers of Mihallu into believing that he was sent by the Priest Kings? If my group is in a similar situation will we, or must we do it the same way? Of course not, but hearing how it was first done is wonderful nevertheless.

BTW, have you seen the Valiant Miniatures 1/900 pewter biremes, triremes, etc? They look like they would be quite nice for fleet battles.  

Shemek.

Thank you for the kind words; information about 'back then' is what we have and can share. And, as you say, what you do with that information is up to you.

(Castle Tilketl, by the way; a really miserable little mud-brick abomination of a fort out in the desert that made Fort Zindeneuf look really good in comparison.)

Yes, I have; I bought mine when they first came out, years and years ago, and they've been bobbing about the seas ever since. Nice little ships, easy to build, and not at all hard to paint up. I've got mine in the yards for repair and restoration; they've seen a lot of service, and they look a little battered. I also have the 'Spanish Main' line from the same company; these provided Harchar's Tnek, back in the day.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 23, 2016, 01:23:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;926470
Agreed. It's what works as play style in the group, I think. And you're right; any set of RPG rules will do just fine, I think, which is why I don't much worry about them.

Re relevance, I would hope so. I'm hoping that people can take away some stuff that they can use in their campaigns, no matter what the world-setting might be. Or, to mis-quote a previous poster, "Over 80,000 views of this bullshit? Really?" :)

Gronan and I are survivors of a time and place in gaming history when game play was the thing, and fun games the objective; how we got there was nowhere nearly as important as the journey. As I've said before, I'll be here to answer questions as long as people want to ask them. What you do with the answers is really up to you...


Hear, Hear!!! Long may this thread grow!!! May the OAL, Black Y Society, and the Ndalu Clan quickly dispatch any and all threats foreign and domestic...Since we are on the topic, what would/could be an equivalent to a troll on Tekumel?

I have taken back to travelling the planes. So I hope to be back with fresh questions and requests for your advice after the 22nd day of Shapru...Otherwise, I will pop in while resting from my travels. Be well and thank you.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 23, 2016, 02:28:12 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;926494
Hear, Hear!!! Long may this thread grow!!! May the OAL, Black Y Society, and the Ndalu Clan quickly dispatch any and all threats foreign and domestic...Since we are on the topic, what would/could be an equivalent to a troll on Tekumel?

I have taken back to travelling the planes. So I hope to be back with fresh questions and requests for your advice after the 22nd day of Shapru...Otherwise, I will pop in while resting from my travels. Be well and thank you.

H:0)

The old Monday Night Group, or the later Thursday Night Group of the 1990s.

Ooooooh! Did I say that? Bad Chirine, wicked Chirine, naughty Chirine! :)

I'd look at a Dzor or a Hra, depending on locale. The former are forest creatures, the latter Underworld denizens. I used Ral Partha trolls for them.

Stay safe; gets lots or rest and fluids - airplanes get very dry - and we'll see you when you get back! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 23, 2016, 06:31:20 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;926440
So, in some sense, what we did in the original Thursday Night Group does not seem to resonate much with the larger gaming hobby; I've been told that we're 'irrelevant' to gaming, as we didn't generate enough rules and mechanics and did too much cultural stuff. That may be as is, but I'm writing an account of our adventures, not an RPG. I figure that people reading the thing can do their own games - as Phil said, "Here's my Tekumel, now make it yours..."

So we talk too much about the social aspects and don't generate rules, but we don't talk enough about the social aspects because we don't require the players to learn to speak Tsolyani?

I'm so confused...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29BoqCMRBFk
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 23, 2016, 08:07:11 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;926519
I'm so confused...
I'm sure it makes much more sense if you read it in the original Tsolyani.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on October 23, 2016, 10:24:37 PM
Quote from: Bren;926528
I'm sure it makes much more sense if you read it in the original Tsolyani.


There you go! :D :D

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 24, 2016, 04:35:19 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;926519
So we talk too much about the social aspects and don't generate rules, but we don't talk enough about the social aspects because we don't require the players to learn to speak Tsolyani?

I'm so confused...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29BoqCMRBFk


You are correct, my General. When you talk about eating the tribesmen's cloaks, you really should provide a set of tables and dice rolls for how the cloaks are boiled, how they are eaten, and the digestive results. Remember, more rules provides a more accurate simulation of how Phil played. Oh, and you need to define the 'cook' class, too.

Never mind that Phil would have simply talked this through, with a D100 roll to see who got sick; that's not how things are done, in today's RPGs. More rules, preferably in a massive tome that you can use as a doorstop. (Which is why I liked "Arrows of Indra": great game, with only as many pages as is needed to get the points across.)

And yes, you need to go to Tsolyani language camp and learn Tsolyani, otherwise you won't be able to 'get' Tekumel.

Honestly; I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried. I'm just repeating what comes in over the transom...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 24, 2016, 04:38:48 AM
Quote from: Bren;926528
I'm sure it makes much more sense if you read it in the original Tsolyani.

With the proper interpretation of Tekumel, done by someone with the right credentials. Who can correct your grammar and vocabulary, in order to have a more meaningful discussion of how the verb structures of Salarvyani reflect the deeper aspects of the society.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on October 24, 2016, 04:52:44 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;926576
With the proper interpretation of Tekumel, done by someone with the right credentials. Who can correct your grammar and vocabulary, in order to have a more meaningful discussion of how the verb structures of Salarvyani reflect the deeper aspects of the society.

Don't they also have to be a non Cis-gendered person of color?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on October 24, 2016, 09:46:27 AM
This question comes from the group of 12 year olds I am running a Tekumel game for.

With all of the festivals the various temples celebrate, is there anything like Halloween? Some Sarku run holiday, maybe? Maybe not full on pumpkin carving and kids getting candy (or rocks) but something similar?
This came up after your comment about the temples putting on fireworks shows sparked (pun intended, sorry) an appearance in game and made them think of the 4th of July, which in turn made them think of Halloween.

Since there is some kind of explosive powder in use, how about something like Greek fire? Anybody use some weird chemical/sorcerous concoction to burn up their enemies? Or at least put inside siege missiles?

And all this nautical talks reminds me of a question I have pondered. Does anyone ever embark on Viking style raids? I know there are some pirate types but, at least from the books, they seemed to prey more on shipping than raiding towns.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Bren on October 24, 2016, 12:46:35 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;926576
With the proper interpretation of Tekumel, done by someone with the right credentials. Who can correct your grammar and vocabulary, in order to have a more meaningful discussion of how the verb structures of Salarvyani reflect the deeper aspects of the society.
Isn't all that inherently and obviously included in the phrase "read it in the original Tsolyani"? :D

If we allow unsanctioned and uncredentialed people read Tsolyani without qualified assistance and supervision , next thing you know someone will be nail a list of objections on someone's door which kicks off a century or two of holy wars.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 24, 2016, 03:22:22 PM
Quote from: Bren;926622
Isn't all that inherently and obviously included in the phrase "read it in the original Tsolyani"? :D

If we allow unsanctioned and uncredentialed people read Tsolyani without qualified assistance and supervision , next thing you know someone will be nail a list of objections on someone's door which kicks off a century or two of holy wars.

When some folower of Karakan nailed 95 Mrur to the door of the temple of Sarku, it did make for some gossip.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 24, 2016, 03:25:40 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;926574
You are correct, my General. When you talk about eating the tribesmen's cloaks, you really should provide a set of tables and dice rolls for how the cloaks are boiled, how they are eaten, and the digestive results. Remember, more rules provides a more accurate simulation of how Phil played. Oh, and you need to define the 'cook' class, too.

Never mind that Phil would have simply talked this through, with a D100 roll to see who got sick; that's not how things are done, in today's RPGs. More rules, preferably in a massive tome that you can use as a doorstop. (Which is why I liked "Arrows of Indra": great game, with only as many pages as is needed to get the points across.)
.

Well, Phil did produce some doorstops of his own.  But to be fair to his memory, back in the 80s "More rules are always better" was pretty much the predominant paradigm.  Hence things like his siege rules.  Something like 400 or 500 pages I seem to remember.  Exhaustive, but also exhausting; there were simply too many rules to play.  We tried.

Incredibly well researched, though.  With a bit of work I'd bet I could turn it into a doctoral thesis on pre-gunpowder siege warfare.

Phil LOVED sieges and was always frustrated by trying to manage the intersection between realism and playability.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 24, 2016, 05:37:00 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;926578
Don't they also have to be a non Cis-gendered person of color?


That's the 'right credentials' part, I am assuming, although the 'right credentials' keep shifting with the political tides. It'll all change in a short while.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 24, 2016, 05:47:31 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;926598
This question comes from the group of 12 year olds I am running a Tekumel game for.

With all of the festivals the various temples celebrate, is there anything like Halloween? Some Sarku run holiday, maybe? Maybe not full on pumpkin carving and kids getting candy (or rocks) but something similar?
This came up after your comment about the temples putting on fireworks shows sparked (pun intended, sorry) an appearance in game and made them think of the 4th of July, which in turn made them think of Halloween.

Since there is some kind of explosive powder in use, how about something like Greek fire? Anybody use some weird chemical/sorcerous concoction to burn up their enemies? Or at least put inside siege missiles?

And all this nautical talks reminds me of a question I have pondered. Does anyone ever embark on Viking style raids? I know there are some pirate types but, at least from the books, they seemed to prey more on shipping than raiding towns.

Yes, there are a number of such festivals; Phil gave a long and detailed list in the Sourcebook, and it's possible to have a full round of parties throughout the year. He even gives the locales for the strictly local festivals; it was all part of his meta-game. We'd come rolling into some town, and the festival would be in full swing. Mayhem usually ensued as we got involved - I got married to my Senior Wife at one in the Nyemesel Isles, in one of Phil's very best game sessions.

'Greek fire', although probably not the exact same formula, is a popular weapon and is used extensively. Back in the day, one of the players had a backpack worn by a bearer with glass spheres full of this stuff, with the idea that it would be handy against Undead. You can imagine what happened when the hapless bearer missed a Dexterity throw and tripped...

Yes, very much so. The Vriddi up in the island of Vridu in the northern sea are infamous for this, as are the Tsolei inlanders west of Livyanu. The pirate 'lords' of Haida Paklla also do this kind of thing, to the annoyance of their neighbors. 'Regular' pirates, which you can find on almost any coast - sort of like in the English Channel, in certain periods - tend to stick with robbing passing ships. Unless, of course, the passing ships happen to have hired a 'local guide', in which case there are usually no problems either way.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 24, 2016, 05:48:28 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;926664
When some folower of Karakan nailed 95 Mrur to the door of the temple of Sarku, it did make for some gossip.

If he'd used copper nails, there would have been no problem.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 24, 2016, 05:52:36 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;926665
Well, Phil did produce some doorstops of his own.  But to be fair to his memory, back in the 80s "More rules are always better" was pretty much the predominant paradigm.  Hence things like his siege rules.  Something like 400 or 500 pages I seem to remember.  Exhaustive, but also exhausting; there were simply too many rules to play.  We tried.

Incredibly well researched, though.  With a bit of work I'd bet I could turn it into a doctoral thesis on pre-gunpowder siege warfare.

Phil LOVED sieges and was always frustrated by trying to manage the intersection between realism and playability.

Very true; "Fortress Beseiged" is something like 345 pages long, and we once worked out that it would take as long to play out the siege as it would have to run the actual siege.

I mean, I can see this in historicals, especially in the WRG era; what's astonished me has been the number of times I've been handed a inch-thick tome and told that this is the newest RPG. It takes forever for most people to read that kind of thing, and I do wonder how often people manage to run a game in that system. Different tastes then mine, I would venture to say.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 24, 2016, 10:13:29 PM
It's why I haven't bought a new RPG in years.  I look briefly at it and go "too many fucking rules."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 25, 2016, 10:57:35 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;925607
Agreed! I find myself with not one, but two groups forming, with a lot of interest in all three of the world-settings I support. I will keep you posted on what happens, of course.

Three settings? Tekumel, Barsoom...which is the third one:)?

Quote from: IceBlinkLuck;925804
Hey Chirine, long time lurker on the board as well as Tekumel fan.

So care to share some of your speculations? I've always been interested in the backstory of the Tekumel Deities and what they are under the masks and misdirection. Also, I've been reading the thread with great interest and enjoyment. Hopefully it will never end!

I'd bet on them being some of the original colonists who found what they can do...
Oops, Lord of Light was mentioned already, right;)?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;925864

This highlights one of the issues that a lot of Tekumel fans had and still have with my original Thursday Night Group; we were so busy surviving in Phil's world that a lot of these issues and questions just never came up We 'played the world' as it was presented to us - as a golfer would say, 'we played it as it lay'...

This thread will go on for as long as people like you have questions... :)

Best way to learn things, I've found. It's why immersion courses work so well for foreign languages.

Kindly prepare to answer questions until the Second Coming, Uncle:D!

Quote from: Greentongue;925927
I have heard that this novel was involved.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_Light
=

Yep, it was mentioned, alright...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;926203
Yes, it does, and it works just fine. You can get funny little noise-makers that make a crack when you pull the string, and all sorts of fun novelty items that do things when you light the touch-paper. The Temples of Hnalla, Thumis, Hry'y, and Ksarul will put on fun displays of this kind of thing for holidays and festivals; this kind of chemical know-how is something that they know about. I'd expect that the Tinaliya do as well, but they're not talking. The Temples of Karakan and Vimuhla eschew such vulgar displays, and have sorcerers put on shows for the big holidays.

It's been asked quite a lot over the years why the Tekumelyani don't use gunpowder in warfare, and the answer that Phil always gave is people like me; I am much, much more powerful and tactically mobile that any sort of black powder artillery could be; the next step up the escalation ladder from Yours Truly is a Lighting-Bringer. Phil always said that in his Tekumel it was a cultural thing, stemming as you posit from the weaponry of the Ancients; black powder weapons are long-forgotten, on a dead planet half a galaxy away.

Phil didn't like the black-powder era, and refused to game in it. Period. His contention was that it would stink up the house and leave dark stains on the carpet on his game table.

There was also a big period when gunpowder was invented, but not guns. You need high-precision instruments and materials that are in short supply in order to make a barrel, too, so the idea of using them as mass weapons might be out...
I mean, early guns win battles when they're used as an weapon you can hand to new recruits, compared to needing a lifetime of practice for shooting the bow.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;926266
Again, he's not kidding, folks.  Phil had a total aversion to anything after about 1300 AD.

I can sympathize.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;926381
This topic created a very lively and interesting discussion between Zirunel and I over on the Tekumel Yahoo group; I strongly recommend his booklet on naval matters( downloadable from his blog), by the way.

Link?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;926384

They are considered to be inviolate, as they were a feature of the Priest-Kings court on Ganga, and nobody with any brains treats them rudely or improperly. They are a very tiny clan, but have very powerful friends at all levels of society. Messing with them is usually considered to be a huge insult to society as a whole, and society tends to react very badly to the insult.

When I was Governor of Hekellu, we had an incident of this sort, and I simply dropped by the offender's clan house with my guards and the local heads of the Black Y Society and Ndalu Clans. The problem was dealt with in short order, and the offender was last seen heading for Pechano to help you fight the Ssu. I think they might have given him a dagger, too, but he certainly left town in a very real hurry...

A whole dagger? Not a steel one, I guess?

I wonder, what would a normal NPC do if you need to sue one of them?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;926440
Agreed. We learned  lot about this from Phil as we went along, but it certainly didn't make it into the published literature - back in our time, and continuing up to now, the emphasis has been on the very 'gamey' aspects of Tekumel. Monsters, new character classes, game mechanics, and rules have dominated the discussions over the years, and social activities like this have tended not to have 'legs' with gamers. No interest by what has been the bulk of the audience meant no publication, as the financial barriers to publishing have been so high until now.

I'm fascinated by your comment; "To Serve The Petal Throne" has a lot of this exact kind of material in it, as this was a very important part of our games with Phil. And it may be why the folks over on the Tekumel Yahoo group don't like it, as it does not have any system- or rules- specific material in it. You get me sitting down and talking to a clan elder, not a set of tables for gaming that encounter. Self-described 'OSR people', over the years, have been all about rules and mechanics and not a lot about the world-setting; we, on the other hand, were all about the world-setting and not very much about the rules or mechanics.

So, in some sense, what we did in the original Thursday Night Group does not seem to resonate much with the larger gaming hobby; I've been told that we're 'irrelevant' to gaming, as we didn't generate enough rules and mechanics and did too much cultural stuff. That may be as is, but I'm writing an account of our adventures, not an RPG. I figure that people reading the thing can do their own games - as Phil said, "Here's my Tekumel, now make it yours..."

And allow me to thank you for that!
I can adapt my own rules just fine:D! It's the experience of playing in Tekumel that I find more important.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;926464

Unfortunately, getting a hold of the rules you mentioned is difficult and or expensive. I missed them the first time around and have been on the look out for them, at a reasonable price, for years. I'll just have to wait until you release the updated 2nd edition of Qadradalikoi.

Let me dig around; now that my entire set of archives is digitized, I have spare paper copies of everything. I'll also see how to get an electronic copy of the manuscript to you, as I certainly can use play-testers!

Playtesters for Qadardalikoi? Where do I sign up and how many virgins need to donate blood for the ink;)?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;926504
The old Monday Night Group, or the later Thursday Night Group of the 1990s.

Ooooooh! Did I say that? Bad Chirine, wicked Chirine, naughty Chirine! :)

Ironically, when I read the question, I thought "players aren't bad enough for you" first...:D

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;926519
So we talk too much about the social aspects and don't generate rules, but we don't talk enough about the social aspects because we don't require the players to learn to speak Tsolyani?

I'm so confused...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29BoqCMRBFk

Frankly, I'd rather make them learn a living language. Mandarin or hindi might not be a bad idea, now that I think of it...:D

Quote from: Bren;926528
I'm sure it makes much more sense if you read it in the original Tsolyani.

I'm sure the Glorious General could do that, though, so it's something else...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;926664
When some folower of Karakan nailed 95 Mrur to the door of the temple of Sarku, it did make for some gossip.


Quote from: chirine ba kal;926699
If he'd used copper nails, there would have been no problem.

If that's an actual event, can we get some more info on the motives, means and implications of this;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 26, 2016, 12:57:16 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;926842
If that's an actual event, can we get some more info on the motives, means and implications of this;)?

No, it's something I invented for this conversation.

In other words, "I made up some shit I thought would be fun."
:D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 26, 2016, 12:58:31 AM
On a completely different subject, over the last couple of days I've had the itch to create a miniatures wargame called "ROCKETSHIPS!" based on space combat as it was portrayed in the 1930s Flash Gordon serials, Fireball XL5, and the Space Angel cartoons.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 26, 2016, 06:24:11 AM
From AsenRG:

Three settings? Tekumel, Barsoom...which is the third one:)?

Ancient Egypt, specifically the Eighteenth Dynasty, from the "Lord Meren" series. By coincidence, I was at the FLGS yesterday on my way home from work, and they are closing out their 25mm historical miniatures lines. I got 150 Ancient Egyptian figures for $35; I wanted just the chariots, but I coudn't resist the bargain.

I'd bet on them being some of the original colonists who found what they can do...
Oops, Lord of Light was mentioned already, right;)?


Yes, it was. :)

Kindly prepare to answer questions until the Second Coming, Uncle:D!

Not a problem; as long as people find me useful, I'll be around.

There was also a big period when gunpowder was invented, but not guns. You need high-precision instruments and materials that are in short supply in order to make a barrel, too, so the idea of using them as mass weapons might be out...
I mean, early guns win battles when they're used as an weapon you can hand to new recruits, compared to needing a lifetime of practice for shooting the bow.


Exactly. It's jut not a cultural thing; better and more available weapons are to hand.

Link?

I'll find it; it's on my blog, too. Maybe Zirunel will answer, as well; always fun to hear from him!

A whole dagger? Not a steel one, I guess?

Nope; the cheapest chlen-hide.

I wonder, what would a normal NPC do if you need to sue one of them?

Good question! They never really interact with individual people - they're too private - so I think the PC's clan would simply 'settle out of court' and pay the PC. This would also save the PC and the clan the utter social shame of messing with them, too.

And allow me to thank you for that!
I can adapt my own rules just fine:D! It's the experience of playing in Tekumel that I find more important.


Exactly; it's a world-setting, not a set of rules. Like Greyhawk and Blackmoor were. A ways back, A guy wanted me to do a new edition of my miniatures rules for Troll Lords, and I got started on the second edition. To see what kind of thing that they were doing, I looked at the d20 Blackmoor that they did. Didn't like it; too much game mechanics and rules, and too litte Dave Arneson and Blackmoor. Eventually, the guy got back to me with a list of what Troll Lords wanted 'fixed', as they thought that the game would not sell unless I added things like cavalry and black-powder artillery. The project foundered when I declined to churn out a copy of "Chainmail"...

Playtesters for Qadardalikoi? Where do I sign up and how many virgins need to donate blood for the ink;)?

I'll drop you an e-mail when I have something useful.

Ironically, when I read the question, I thought "players aren't bad enough for you" first...:D

Well, I've gotten really tired of the sniping; we used to have to waste a lot of time in game sessions dealing with the trolls in the other group, and later with the courtiers around the Petal Throne. Which is why I refuse to be part of any business or publishing venture, any more.

Frankly, I'd rather make them learn a living language. Mandarin or hindi might not be a bad idea, now that I think of it...:D

Urdu or Pashtun; it'd be funnier.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 26, 2016, 06:25:39 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;926979
On a completely different subject, over the last couple of days I've had the itch to create a miniatures wargame called "ROCKETSHIPS!" based on space combat as it was portrayed in the 1930s Flash Gordon serials, Fireball XL5, and the Space Angel cartoons.

I have the rocket ships in the basement, courtesy of Target Stores; figures are also available. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 26, 2016, 07:53:02 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;926978
No, it's something I invented for this conversation.

In other words, "I made up some shit I thought would be fun."
:D

Good job:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;927006
From AsenRG:

Three settings? Tekumel, Barsoom...which is the third one?

Ancient Egypt, specifically the Eighteenth Dynasty, from the "Lord Meren" series. By coincidence, I was at the FLGS yesterday on my way home from work, and they are closing out their 25mm historical miniatures lines. I got 150 Ancient Egyptian figures for $35; I wanted just the chariots, but I coudn't resist the bargain.

Heh. The only Egypt-basedgame I know is Zenobia: Aegypt. Check it out, it's free and it consists mainly of a setting with simple 2d6-based rules that I suspect you'd like;).

http://www.paulelliottbooks.com/free-rpgs.html


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Kindly prepare to answer questions until the Second Coming, Uncle:D!

Not a problem; as long as people find me useful, I'll be around.

Well, we've got more questions incoming, no doubt.

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Link?

I'll find it; it's on my blog, too. Maybe Zirunel will answer, as well; always fun to hear from him!

Thank you in advance!

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A whole dagger? Not a steel one, I guess?

Nope; the cheapest chlen-hide.

Yeah. In Japanese settings, they'd send him a  kaishakunin...but at least they'd give him a sharp wakizashi;).

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I wonder, what would a normal NPC do if you need to sue one of them?

Good question! They never really interact with individual people - they're too private - so I think the PC's clan would simply 'settle out of court' and pay the PC. This would also save the PC and the clan the utter social shame of messing with them, too.

So, even whole clans don't mess with them? Would that change if their relative was offended enough that he or she refused payment?
I suspect at least the Ndalu clan would take the offer.

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Exactly; it's a world-setting, not a set of rules. Like Greyhawk and Blackmoor were. A ways back, A guy wanted me to do a new edition of my miniatures rules for Troll Lords, and I got started on the second edition. To see what kind of thing that they were doing, I looked at the d20 Blackmoor that they did. Didn't like it; too much game mechanics and rules, and too litte Dave Arneson and Blackmoor. Eventually, the guy got back to me with a list of what Troll Lords wanted 'fixed', as they thought that the game would not sell unless I added things like cavalry and black-powder artillery. The project foundered when I declined to churn out a copy of "Chainmail"...

So, they wanted you to recreate Chainmail? Ah well, I guess it couldn't be helped.

Fun fact: two out of my five favourite OSR games are actually based on Chainmail, though I'd never read Chainmail.

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Playtesters for Qadardalikoi? Where do I sign up and how many virgins need to donate blood for the ink;)?

I'll drop you an e-mail when I have something useful.

Great! In the meantime, I'll go solve the virgins issue:p!

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Well, I've gotten really tired of the sniping; we used to have to waste a lot of time in game sessions dealing with the trolls in the other group, and later with the courtiers around the Petal Throne. Which is why I refuse to be part of any business or publishing venture, any more.

I can figure why...
OTOH, Uncle, I think you should just use those people's characters as antagonists for your games. It seems they wouldn't act so smart as to always win, and it seem like their usual style would make it easy for the players to get invested in defeating them:D!

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Frankly, I'd rather make them learn a living language. Mandarin or hindi might not be a bad idea, now that I think of it...:D

Urdu or Pashtun; it'd be funnier.

Sure it would be funnier, but if I make them study a language, I'd want it to be a language they could actually use outside the game;). Urdu or Pashtun wouldn't be nearly as useful, it's easier to find a native translator for those.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 26, 2016, 02:55:57 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;927006
Eventually, the guy got back to me with a list of what Troll Lords wanted 'fixed', as they thought that the game would not sell unless I added things like cavalry and black-powder artillery.

Dur?  :confused:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 26, 2016, 05:25:09 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;927012

Heh. The only Egypt-basedgame I know is Zenobia: Aegypt. Check it out, it's free and it consists mainly of a setting with simple 2d6-based rules that I suspect you'd like;).

http://www.paulelliottbooks.com/free-rpgs.html

So, even whole clans don't mess with them? Would that change if their relative was offended enough that he or she refused payment?
I suspect at least the Ndalu clan would take the offer.


So, they wanted you to recreate Chainmail? Ah well, I guess it couldn't be helped.
Fun fact: two out of my five favourite OSR games are actually based on Chainmail, though I'd never read Chainmail.

I can figure why...
OTOH, Uncle, I think you should just use those people's characters as antagonists for your games. It seems they wouldn't act so smart as to always win, and it seem like their usual style would make it easy for the players to get invested in defeating them:D!


I'll have a look - thank you for the tip!

No, nobody messes with Striding Incantation. It's very difficult to persuade them to perform in the first place, an they don't charge fees. One makes a substantial donation / gift to them for their deigning to show up at your affair, and it is considered a huge social 'victory' that they showed up. The Ndalu clan is their firm allies, and will not even consider taking commissions regarding them. They keep to themselves, give no trouble to to anyone, and do their performances for the people, clans and temples if they think the request is noble and proper. They do not even reply to anyone who is considered to be the least little bit 'un-respectable'  or 'un-cultured'. About the only 'command performances' they do are for the current occupant of the Petal Throne itself; even Imperial personages make their requests carefully and politely. To do anything else would be ignoble and gauche, in the worst possible way; one would be socially cut dead instantly - at best!

If they had said up front that they wanted a new version of "Chainmail", I would have refused and sent them elsewhere. It smelled like somebody was trying to get around WotC, and I was happy to get away from the whole thing.

Oh, I have my methods. You will see, in due time, how I deal with these people. Revenge, as some body once said, is a dish best served cold: I have managed to outlive quite a few of my tormentors over the years, and I expect to outlive these. I have even done miniatures of some of them, so they are literally 'figures of fun' in my games... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 26, 2016, 05:42:21 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;927091
Dur?  :confused:


Why, yes, my General. My rules, and the world-setting that they are based in, are fatally flawed because - since this is a Fantasy Role-playing World - there is no horsed cavalry or real artillery. There are also none of the required fantasy elements such as elves, dwarves, orcs, and the like, and so the rules needed to be substantially fixed to have all this material in them. Otherwise, I was told, the 'market demographic' of D&D players would not buy them.

Basically, the whole thing smelled like somebody was trying to get around whatever copyrights somebody else might have - this was also the time when there was much talk about 'Chainmail - The Movie', which was a really obvious try at getting past WotC and which spawned a very interesting lawsuit that I followed with much fascination.

Eventually, I pointed out that there was a company called 'Games Workshop' which had the kind of game that they really wanted, and that I had no interest in producing yet another bog-standard set of 'fantasy miniatures rules'.  Or any other set of fantasy miniatures rules, as the market is littered with the corpses of game companies that have tried this over the past thirty years - leaving a trail of discontinued miniatures lines in their wake, too.

See also my being able to buy up literally hundreds of miniatures over the years, as companies collapse and leave retailers with walls and walls full of miniatures on display. Figures that I like, which I can't afford at retail, I'm getting at 75% off or even deeper discounts.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 26, 2016, 06:39:16 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;927124
I'll have a look - thank you for the tip!
You're welcome, Uncle! Paul Elliott makes really fun games, and I'm sure the Zenobia (and supplements) line is something you and the Glorious General would approve of...

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No, nobody messes with Striding Incantation. It's very difficult to persuade them to perform in the first place, an they don't charge fees. One makes a substantial donation / gift to them for their deigning to show up at your affair, and it is considered a huge social 'victory' that they showed up. The Ndalu clan is their firm allies, and will not even consider taking commissions regarding them. They keep to themselves, give no trouble to to anyone, and do their performances for the people, clans and temples if they think the request is noble and proper. They do not even reply to anyone who is considered to be the least little bit 'un-respectable'  or 'un-cultured'. About the only 'command performances' they do are for the current occupant of the Petal Throne itself; even Imperial personages make their requests carefully and politely. To do anything else would be ignoble and gauche, in the worst possible way; one would be socially cut dead instantly - at best!
Hmm, now I wonder what would happen if a member of Striding Incantation decides to "go rogue" and starts abusing that...
Imagine one of the Monday/Thursday Night players playing one, for clarity;)

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If they had said up front that they wanted a new version of "Chainmail", I would have refused and sent them elsewhere. It smelled like somebody was trying to get around WotC, and I was happy to get away from the whole thing.
Yeah, bad idea. WotC have great lawyers, I hear.

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Oh, I have my methods. You will see, in due time, how I deal with these people. Revenge, as some body once said, is a dish best served cold: I have managed to outlive quite a few of my tormentors over the years, and I expect to outlive these.
I like better what they said in "A Necklace of Skulls": "The best revenge is to live better than your enemy".

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I have even done miniatures of some of them, so they are literally 'figures of fun' in my games... :)
That's the spirit:D! Also, a good start for what I suggested.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on October 26, 2016, 08:45:18 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;927124
I have managed to outlive quite a few of my tormentors over the years, and I expect to outlive these. I have even done miniatures of some of them, so they are literally 'figures of fun' in my games... :)
Put any of the minis in a High Ride diorama?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 26, 2016, 09:30:37 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;927125
Why, yes, my General. My rules, and the world-setting that they are based in, are fatally flawed because - since this is a Fantasy Role-playing World - there is no horsed cavalry or real artillery. There are also none of the required fantasy elements such as elves, dwarves, orcs, and the like, and so the rules needed to be substantially fixed to have all this material in them. Otherwise, I was told, the 'market demographic' of D&D players would not buy them.

Basically, the whole thing smelled like somebody was trying to get around whatever copyrights somebody else might have - this was also the time when there was much talk about 'Chainmail - The Movie', which was a really obvious try at getting past WotC and which spawned a very interesting lawsuit that I followed with much fascination.

Eventually, I pointed out that there was a company called 'Games Workshop' which had the kind of game that they really wanted, and that I had no interest in producing yet another bog-standard set of 'fantasy miniatures rules'.  Or any other set of fantasy miniatures rules, as the market is littered with the corpses of game companies that have tried this over the past thirty years - leaving a trail of discontinued miniatures lines in their wake, too.

See also my being able to buy up literally hundreds of miniatures over the years, as companies collapse and leave retailers with walls and walls full of miniatures on display. Figures that I like, which I can't afford at retail, I'm getting at 75% off or even deeper discounts.

You know, after all these years you'd think I would have reached the point of no longer being surprised by stupid shit people think up, but NO....
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 27, 2016, 06:19:32 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;927141
Hmm, now I wonder what would happen if a member of Striding Incantation decides to "go rogue" and starts abusing that...
Imagine one of the Monday/Thursday Night players playing one, for clarity;)

I actually can't imagine any of those people playing anyone from the clan; too different a mind-set.

If there was a 'rogue', nobody would ever hear about it, given how tightly-knit the clan is; heck, we don't even know for sure if they are human...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 27, 2016, 06:25:13 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;927159
Put any of the minis in a High Ride diorama?

No, actually, I did not; it hadn't even crossed my mind. Too predictable, too obvious, too easy; I am, as Gronan can tell you, none of the above. "Laughter is the bane of tyrants," somebody much smarter then I once said, so I went for the laughter instead and did parodies of them as miniatures. They now appear as random encounters in my games, and the players do the one thing that they cannot handle - laugh at them. So, if you ever run into an old crone who claims to have amazing occult powers, a smooth-talking con man, a venomous fraudster, and a very strange but well-dressed lich, then you'll have met some of them. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 27, 2016, 06:40:14 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;927169
You know, after all these years you'd think I would have reached the point of no longer being surprised by stupid shit people think up, but NO....

No, indeed. As the discussion went on, it was very obvious that what was wanted was to attach my name and my game's title to the project for prestige reasons but that the people managing the project had little or no information on or experience with the miniatures hobby. What they wanted to do was cash in on the notion that "Chainmail" is the actual source of the RPG hobby, and how "Warhammer" males millions of dollars every year. No idea of the work involved, the way the industry works, or even how the manufacturing process for miniatures actually happens these days.

Similarly, I had a bunch of people come by and tell me that they wanted to do a new RPG for Tekumel, which would use the D&D 4.0 rules in their entire glory. They told me that my participation was vital to the project, but never did happen to mention what I would get out of it if I participated in it; the main thrust of their coming around was - it turned out - was to get control of what's in the basement. Their market research consisted of one of the people involved saying that all his players in his 4.0 campaign loved the rules - he's also one of the most boring number-crunchers I've ever had to sit through an afternoon with - and their 'business plan' consisted of a direct copy of GW's one-paragraph 'mission statement' off the GW website. When it was pointed out tot hem that WotC might have issues with their rules being reprinted by them without permission or a license - the OGL and SRD were mentioned to these people - they simply looked at me blankly. They had no idea how the RPG industry works.

I've had some real smooth- and fast-talking idiots come through here, over the past five years. Which is why I no longer allow casual visitors to visit, any more. The two guys who came by this past March on their way to your Gary Con game were the last straw, actually.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 27, 2016, 07:48:01 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;927231
I actually can't imagine any of those people playing anyone from the clan; too different a mind-set.

If there was a 'rogue', nobody would ever hear about it, given how tightly-knit the clan is; heck, we don't even know for sure if they are human...
OK, imagine me, or anyone else you think can pull that off, choosing a goal that can be achieved by hurting some people, and then doing so. They can't sue me, can't attack me directly, the Ndalu clan isn't taking an order on me:).
What is the retaliation going to be;)?


Quote from: chirine ba kal;927235
Similarly, I had a bunch of people come by and tell me that they wanted to do a new RPG for Tekumel, which would use the D&D 4.0 rules in their entire glory. They told me that my participation was vital to the project, but never did happen to mention what I would get out of it if I participated in it; the main thrust of their coming around was - it turned out - was to get control of what's in the basement. Their market research consisted of one of the people involved saying that all his players in his 4.0 campaign loved the rules - he's also one of the most boring number-crunchers I've ever had to sit through an afternoon with - and their 'business plan' consisted of a direct copy of GW's one-paragraph 'mission statement' off the GW website. When it was pointed out tot hem that WotC might have issues with their rules being reprinted by them without permission or a license - the OGL and SRD were mentioned to these people - they simply looked at me blankly. They had no idea how the RPG industry works.
I know that it wasn't nearly as funny to you, Uncle...but really, that's golden:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on October 27, 2016, 09:13:16 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;927235
They had no idea how the RPG industry works.
From my experience, most people have no idea how any industry works. Ask just about anyone what they think the profit margin of the company they work for is. The numbers you get will be so high as to boggle the mind. Or the people who think that because their company sold Big Number X worth of goods this week that the company is rolling in cash, like it is all profit. How many game stores or comic stores or any other "hobby" stores have we all seen that opened with big dreams and closed when reality hit. Most folks just don't realize how much work goes into a business and think a good idea is enough.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;927235
I've had some real smooth- and fast-talking idiots come through here, over the past five years. Which is why I no longer allow casual visitors to visit, any more. The two guys who came by this past March on their way to your Gary Con game were the last straw, actually.
I am no smooth talker, but I am pretty sure that I would talk much faster if ever I got to visit. May not be coherent or complete sentences, probably more like- Wow is that... Oh man, I saw the pictures you posted of... Holy shit, that is way cooler in person. The idiot part I have covered in spades!



A question spawned by another thread, the one about gods in a setting. There was mention of Greek Mythology and all the various demi-gods. Did/do any of the gods of Tekumel ever mate with humans? If so, what are their offspring like? Hnalla ever appear as golden rain to pick up girls or Sarku ever trick some lady into eating some pomegranate seeds?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 27, 2016, 09:23:49 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;927244
From my experience, most people have no idea how any industry works.

Fun fact: there was a time in the 90ies when some people here believed that people in the USA just know more about the way businesses work, because obviously you study that at school or something:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 27, 2016, 06:36:24 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;927241
OK, imagine me, or anyone else you think can pull that off, choosing a goal that can be achieved by hurting some people, and then doing so. They can't sue me, can't attack me directly, the Ndalu clan isn't taking an order on me:).
What is the retaliation going to be;)?

I know that it wasn't nearly as funny to you, Uncle...but really, that's golden:D!

Sorry; I can't get my head around the notion. I suppose one could send in the legion and wipe them out, but I would not want to be the one giving that order.

In retrospect, it was absurdly funny - if you didn't have to live through it, of course. It cost me $800 in legal fees, the destruction of my decade-old game group, and several thirty- and forty-year friendships. I'm still having to deal with the aftermath of this nonsense.

The biggest losers is the whole affair have been gamers and Tekumel fans in general, but then that didn't seem to matter much to these people.

So it goes. Live and learn.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 27, 2016, 07:12:21 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;926384
They are the Clan of the Striding Incantation, and they do the little (and presumably magical) puppets that can be see at very high-class parties in the major cities. The puppets act out epic tales and funny comedies, and while a puppeteer is present, they never touch or manipulate the puppets in any physical way. It is considered a huge mark of high social status to get them to come and perform at one's party; they do not accept casual invitations, and you really do have to 'be somebody' and of a very good and respectable clan to have them even reply to you. They will do public performances, on very high holidays, and people will come for hundreds of miles to see the puppets perform. Nobody knows how they do any of this; it's an ancient secret of the clan. There is a faint aura of sorcery around after one of their performances, but that's all anyone knows. For that matter, nobody knows what gods they worship, either; they are very private, and very secretive.

Unique amongst clans, their clan colors are the Engsvanyali imperial white and gold, with trims in regional colors - but no deity colors that anyone knows about. Howard Fielding did a wonderful set of a puppeteer, puppets, and delighted children by the way.

They are considered to be inviolate, as they were a feature of the Priest-Kings court on Ganga, and nobody with any brains treats them rudely or improperly. They are a very tiny clan, but have very powerful friends at all levels of society. Messing with them is usually considered to be a huge insult to society as a whole, and society tends to react very badly to the insult.

When I was Governor of Hekellu, we had an incident of this sort, and I simply dropped by the offender's clan house with my guards and the local heads of the Black Y Society and Ndalu Clans. The problem was dealt with in short order, and the offender was last seen heading for Pechano to help you fight the Ssu. I think they might have given him a dagger, too, but he certainly left town in a very real hurry...


Uncle,

Greetings. Could you expand a bit on the details of the incident when you were governor of Hekellu? Would you have any other information not already give about Striding Incantation? There is only a paragraph about them in the sourcebook...Do they get along with the Society of the Hands that are not Seen? I found your commentary on SI intriguing. Most of the pulp stories I've read about puppets have very sinister outcomes. As far as their secrecy goes are there any rumors that people whisper about them in hushed conversation? Did The Professor ever give any hints as to which god or gods they worship? Or anything else interesting about these clans? Do you have any suspicions of your own about them?

Thanks,

H:0)

PS Not Human...androids...!?!?!...The plot thickens. I missed a bit of the conversation.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 27, 2016, 09:46:31 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;927244
From my experience, most people have no idea how any industry works. Ask just about anyone what they think the profit margin of the company they work for is. The numbers you get will be so high as to boggle the mind. Or the people who think that because their company sold Big Number X worth of goods this week that the company is rolling in cash, like it is all profit. How many game stores or comic stores or any other "hobby" stores have we all seen that opened with big dreams and closed when reality hit. Most folks just don't realize how much work goes into a business and think a good idea is enough.

I am no smooth talker, but I am pretty sure that I would talk much faster if ever I got to visit. May not be coherent or complete sentences, probably more like- Wow is that... Oh man, I saw the pictures you posted of... Holy shit, that is way cooler in person. The idiot part I have covered in spades!

A question spawned by another thread, the one about gods in a setting. There was mention of Greek Mythology and all the various demi-gods. Did/do any of the gods of Tekumel ever mate with humans? If so, what are their offspring like? Hnalla ever appear as golden rain to pick up girls or Sarku ever trick some lady into eating some pomegranate seeds?


Agreed; the history of Tekumel publishing is strewn with the remains of people who thought that they could do it better then I could. We've seen how well it's worked, over the past decades.

I'm sure you would, and that's not an issue for me; you're welcome to visit anytime, as are the other people on this thread. Mind you, I do screen potential visitors, to sort the bad from the good and keep the riff-raff out.

Nope. Nothing we ever heard about, or read about. Phil's 'gods' just didn't care enough about us - we were toys in the sandbox and pretty much nothing else.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 27, 2016, 10:00:00 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;927348
Uncle,

Greetings. Could you expand a bit on the details of the incident when you were governor of Hekellu? Would you have any other information not already give about Striding Incantation? There is only a paragraph about them in the sourcebook...Do they get along with the Society of the Hands that are not Seen? I found your commentary on SI intriguing. Most of the pulp stories I've read about puppets have very sinister outcomes. As far as their secrecy goes are there any rumors that people whisper about them in hushed conversation? Did The Professor ever give any hints as to which god or gods they worship? Or anything else interesting about these clans? Do you have any suspicions of your own about them?

Thanks,

H:0)

PS Not Human...androids...!?!?!...The plot thickens. I missed a bit of the conversation.

Sure. There'll be a whole section in the book, but the short form is that somebody had A Bright Idea and was holding a couple of the clan's kids hostage; the clan let me know about it - this was after a performance at the palace, so the Imperium itself was being insulted - and I gathered the assasins and paid the young fool's clan a visit. Got the kids back, and shortly afterwards my new twins got a set of dolls to keep them company. Which led to the most screamingly terrifying night I ever had on Tekumel.

They do indeed get along with the Society; the Society is the more 'junior' of the pair, with Striding Incantation more 'senior'. The members of the Society seem a little more 'approachable', if I can use that term, then the clan's people who seem a lot more 'remote' and 'aloof'. Both, as Phil says, are very special and very outside the usual system of clans and politics. You just don't mess with them, or mess them around.

Lots of hushed conversations about them, and lots of very circumspect interest in them in the temples. The death of the guy in Bey Su is widely attributed to them, but nobody knows for sure and they aren't telling. The puppet shows are fascinating to watch, and they do provide some pretty cool entertainment.

They are not androids; we do know that. We don't know for sure if they are humans like us; they might be some of the specially-bred races of the Lords of Humanspace. Nobody has ever investigated the matter in any depth, as nobody wants to provoke them or start an incident that will end badly. Phil gave us nothing on them, besides what he gave in the Sourcebook; as he put it, "I think we need to have a mystery or two for people to discover for themselves." So, treat them with kid gloves and sit back and enjoy the show...

I'm sorry that there isn't more for you, but that's all we ever got from him.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 28, 2016, 04:19:46 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;927340
Sorry; I can't get my head around the notion. I suppose one could send in the legion and wipe them out, but I would not want to be the one giving that order.
Well, I just remember how people that knew they can be messed with have behaved throughout history. Not too nobly, if i might say that:).
And then my mind went to "what if there was a real troublemaker among them - someone who would be doing the same even without the proteced status - but now he has the status, too"?
You can guess why I was puzzled.

Quote
In retrospect, it was absurdly funny - if you didn't have to live through it, of course. It cost me $800 in legal fees, the destruction of my decade-old game group, and several thirty- and forty-year friendships. I'm still having to deal with the aftermath of this nonsense.
Oh, sorry to hear that! I thought these were just harmless misguided guys. I mean, they didn't realise WotC's lawyers, of all law departmentsout there, would go after them? Didn't seem like people who can cause any kind of backlash:p!

Quote
The biggest losers is the whole affair have been gamers and Tekumel fans in general, but then that didn't seem to matter much to these people.

So it goes. Live and learn.
Business as usual.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;927370
Sure. There'll be a whole section in the book, but the short form is that somebody had A Bright Idea and was holding a couple of the clan's kids hostage; the clan let me know about it - this was after a performance at the palace, so the Imperium itself was being insulted - and I gathered the assasins and paid the young fool's clan a visit. Got the kids back, and shortly afterwards my new twins got a set of dolls to keep them company. Which led to the most screamingly terrifying night I ever had on Tekumel.
Kids these days, and their toys;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 28, 2016, 06:37:33 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;927247
Fun fact: there was a time in the 90ies when some people here believed that people in the USA just know more about the way businesses work, because obviously you study that at school or something:D!


Ah! I don't know id this is still true, but a business management course at the Carlson School of Business hereabouts used to use the rise and fall of TSR as a case study in how not to run a business...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 28, 2016, 06:42:51 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;927409
Well, I just remember how people that knew they can be messed with have behaved throughout history. Not too nobly, if i might say that:).
And then my mind went to "what if there was a real troublemaker among them - someone who would be doing the same even without the proteced status - but now he has the status, too"?
You can guess why I was puzzled.

Oh, sorry to hear that! I thought these were just harmless misguided guys. I mean, they didn't realise WotC's lawyers, of all law departmentsout there, would go after them? Didn't seem like people who can cause any kind of backlash:p!

Business as usual.

Kids these days, and their toys;)!


Understood.

No, they had no idea that what they were doing was going to get them into hot water. From what we found out later, the whole thing may have been a scam to get control of IP for resale. The people who instigated the affair had a very interesting 'resume', as it were.

I'm no great business man, but even I know better then that. .

It wasn't the kids - it was the toys...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 28, 2016, 09:25:58 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;927425
Ah! I don't know id this is still true, but a business management course at the Carlson School of Business hereabouts used to use the rise and fall of TSR as a case study in how not to run a business...
Well, that's why I said this beliefe, which has passed already, is a funny little fact, just like the belief in the 2012 end of the world - I scheduled a session for the day;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;927426
Understood.

No, they had no idea that what they were doing was going to get them into hot water. From what we found out later, the whole thing may have been a scam to get control of IP for resale. The people who instigated the affair had a very interesting 'resume', as it were.

I'm no great business man, but even I know better then that. .

It wasn't the kids - it was the toys...
Well, not so funny with that additional tidbit.

And I was imagining a Tekumelian grognard from your clan talking after that first night, preferably while sipping tea from a golden bowl and observing the destruction the toys wrought to the clan compound:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 28, 2016, 12:51:57 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;927370
Sure. There'll be a whole section in the book, but the short form is that somebody had A Bright Idea and was holding a couple of the clan's kids hostage; the clan let me know about it - this was after a performance at the palace, so the Imperium itself was being insulted - and I gathered the assasins and paid the young fool's clan a visit. Got the kids back, and shortly afterwards my new twins got a set of dolls to keep them company. Which led to the most screamingly terrifying night I ever had on Tekumel.

They do indeed get along with the Society; the Society is the more 'junior' of the pair, with Striding Incantation more 'senior'. The members of the Society seem a little more 'approachable', if I can use that term, then the clan's people who seem a lot more 'remote' and 'aloof'. Both, as Phil says, are very special and very outside the usual system of clans and politics. You just don't mess with them, or mess them around.

Lots of hushed conversations about them, and lots of very circumspect interest in them in the temples. The death of the guy in Bey Su is widely attributed to them, but nobody knows for sure and they aren't telling. The puppet shows are fascinating to watch, and they do provide some pretty cool entertainment.

They are not androids; we do know that. We don't know for sure if they are humans like us; they might be some of the specially-bred races of the Lords of Humanspace. Nobody has ever investigated the matter in any depth, as nobody wants to provoke them or start an incident that will end badly. Phil gave us nothing on them, besides what he gave in the Sourcebook; as he put it, "I think we need to have a mystery or two for people to discover for themselves." So, treat them with kid gloves and sit back and enjoy the show...

I'm sorry that there isn't more for you, but that's all we ever got from him.


Ahhh!!! Now it is left up to me to decide why they were bred by the Lords of Humanspace...That could be interesting. So we have the N'luss, the Nom, Your First Wife, and now the puppeteers.

Thank you as always,
H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 28, 2016, 04:49:52 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;927409
Well, I just remember how people that knew they can be messed with have behaved throughout history. Not too nobly, if i might say that:).
And then my mind went to "what if there was a real troublemaker among them - someone who would be doing the same even without the proteced status - but now he has the status, too"?
You can guess why I was puzzled.

If a member of the clan was acting like a gobshite and relying on the high status of the clan to protect him, it would make the clan look ignoble.

Therefore, the clan elders would See To It. (c) (tm) (reg u.s. pat off)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 28, 2016, 07:24:07 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;927521
If a member of the clan was acting like a gobshite and relying on the high status of the clan to protect him, it would make the clan look ignoble.

Therefore, the clan elders would See To It. (c) (tm) (reg u.s. pat off)

Great! Now, what are the odds, Glorious General, that Seeing To It might involve adventurers:)?
Just a theoretical estimate, you know, I know a guy who knows a guy that might be interested;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 28, 2016, 09:36:50 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;927569
Great! Now, what are the odds, Glorious General, that Seeing To It might involve adventurers:)?
Just a theoretical estimate, you know, I know a guy who knows a guy that might be interested;)!

Striding Incantation is so secretive I doubt they'd involve outsiders.  I suspect the miscreant would simply not be seen any more, either for a long while or possibly ever.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 29, 2016, 03:11:54 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;927602
Striding Incantation is so secretive I doubt they'd involve outsiders.  I suspect the miscreant would simply not be seen any more, either for a long while or possibly ever.

Ah well, there goes the chance to get the PCs involved with them;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 30, 2016, 04:57:08 AM
Something for Gronan, assuming that it loads...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]493[/ATTACH]
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 30, 2016, 05:04:15 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;927438
Well, that's why I said this beliefe, which has passed already, is a funny little fact, just like the belief in the 2012 end of the world - I scheduled a session for the day;).

Well, not so funny with that additional tidbit.

And I was imagining a Tekumelian grognard from your clan talking after that first night, preferably while sipping tea from a golden bowl and observing the destruction the toys wrought to the clan compound:D!


Understood; it's like some British friends, who were amazed at my going through an ironmonger's shop in Cirencester and buying up all the small hammers on offer. They had grown up being told that one can get anything in the US, and the Missus had to explain that the kind of tools that I was looking for usually had to be imported from the UK...

No, you're right. The more 'due diligence' we did on these people, the more unsavory business practices we found going on. Between that the the pair we had in almost a year ago, we're a lot more careful who we deal with.

There was no destruction at all; it was a very nice night, but with a cool breeze in off the lake. How that breeze was dealt with was what terrified me.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 30, 2016, 05:05:08 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;927472
Ahhh!!! Now it is left up to me to decide why they were bred by the Lords of Humanspace...That could be interesting. So we have the N'luss, the Nom, Your First Wife, and now the puppeteers.

Thank you as always,
H:0)


You're quite welcome! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on October 30, 2016, 05:10:10 AM
A quick note on the subject of the Society of the Hands Which are Not Seen and the Clan of the Striding Incantation:

Not only is a puppetry show described in one of the Gardasiyal solo books, but an encounter between one of the puppets and the player also takes place. It's a fantastic moment.

These can be found in the "Part Two/Volume One: Coming of Age in Tekumel" book, on pages 18-20 (the puppetry performance proper; one that ends in mayhem), and pages 37-38 (an encounter with the sentient puppet responsible for the mayhem; one that at one point states: "Many of us, on the many Planes, agree that [such Prince] is the best ruler (...)".). Us?! On the many Planes?! Very cool stuff.

This reminds me of something else mentioned by that puppet: "Get to my master's clanhouse in Jakalla (...) My Life-Stone will expire soon, and I must go there so that the puppeteers can make another one".

What are "Life-Stones"?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 30, 2016, 05:53:13 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;927854
A quick note on the subject of the Society of the Hands Which are Not Seen and the Clan of the Striding Incantation:

Not only is a puppetry show described in one of the Gardasiyal solo books, but an encounter between one of the puppets and the player also takes place. It's a fantastic moment.

These can be found in the "Part Two/Volume One: Coming of Age in Tekumel" book, on pages 18-20 (the puppetry performance proper; one that ends in mayhem), and pages 37-38 (an encounter with the sentient puppet responsible for the mayhem; one that at one point states: "Many of us, on the many Planes, agree that [such Prince] is the best ruler (...)".). Us?! On the many Planes?! Very cool stuff.

This reminds me of something else mentioned by that puppet: "Get to my master's clanhouse in Jakalla (...) My Life-Stone will expire soon, and I must go there so that the puppeteers can make another one".

What are "Life-Stones"?

SPOILER ALERT!

Good quote! :)

See also the Brotherhood of the Half-human, as well. There are a lot of things like this scattered through the various texts, as Phil never did the thing in a logical or coherent manner; he did what he liked, when he liked, as needed for game sessions. Humans are not the highest form of life on the planet, nor are the known races the only ones hanging about. (There's more secreted away in the archives, he said with a cackle; it's why I wanted to be an archivist in the first place.)

They are a 'device' - sort of like a 'battery' - inside the puppet that provides the other-planar energy that keeps the puppet 'alive'. Made only by the clans, and one of their most closely-guarded secrets. Supposedly may be recharged with the Eye that does this, but nobody I know has tried it - the puppets are always with a clan member. It's all sorcery, of a very high order, and very much a very closely held bit of information. Sort of like Lord Fu Shi's devices for controlling the Mihalli.

It's still up in the air as to if the puppets are true AIs, simpler 'robots', or other-planar beings entirely. Nobody wants to mess with the clans to find out, or get dead in the process. We ran into evidence of all three, so you place your bets and take your chances. Players usually see these at parties, so there's not much opportunity to examine them in any detail. The 'Adventures' text was a way to get the players to interact more closely with what we all thought was something very cool in Phil's games. My own text has the puppets as a recurring 'side plot', as they will be making occasional appearances in the books.

(This is, I think, a really cool example of how Phil took something he saw in South Asia and adapted it to his Sword and Planet world. I could be a grumpy old sourpuss and gripe that Tekumel is the very worst example of 'cultural appropriation' in gaming, but it's a nice morning hereabouts, I'm having a good breakfast, and I've got miniatures to paint and stories to write...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on October 30, 2016, 10:38:30 AM
"and stories to write...)"

Yes, please ;)
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 30, 2016, 10:55:39 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;927854
A quick note on the subject of the Society of the Hands Which are Not Seen and the Clan of the Striding Incantation:

Not only is a puppetry show described in one of the Gardasiyal solo books, but an encounter between one of the puppets and the player also takes place. It's a fantastic moment.

These can be found in the "Part Two/Volume One: Coming of Age in Tekumel" book, on pages 18-20 (the puppetry performance proper; one that ends in mayhem), and pages 37-38 (an encounter with the sentient puppet responsible for the mayhem; one that at one point states: "Many of us, on the many Planes, agree that [such Prince] is the best ruler (...)".). Us?! On the many Planes?! Very cool stuff.

This reminds me of something else mentioned by that puppet: "Get to my master's clanhouse in Jakalla (...) My Life-Stone will expire soon, and I must go there so that the puppeteers can make another one".

What are "Life-Stones"?


Ahh!!! Lord Neshm, thank you for pointing me in the right direction!!! Those books which I own, but have not as yet been able to read. Soon, soon. I also should read my S&G sourcebook from cover to cover as well. So many books to read(stacks & stacks), too much work at the moment. That will all change in a couple of months. Freedom!!!

I know that I still have so much yet to discover. In due time. Thanks.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 30, 2016, 11:17:06 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;927856
SPOILER ALERT!

Good quote! :)

See also the Brotherhood of the Half-human, as well. There are a lot of things like this scattered through the various texts, as Phil never did the thing in a logical or coherent manner; he did what he liked, when he liked, as needed for game sessions. Humans are not the highest form of life on the planet, nor are the known races the only ones hanging about. (There's more secreted away in the archives, he said with a cackle; it's why I wanted to be an archivist in the first place.)

They are a 'device' - sort of like a 'battery' - inside the puppet that provides the other-planar energy that keeps the puppet 'alive'. Made only by the clans, and one of their most closely-guarded secrets. Supposedly may be recharged with the Eye that does this, but nobody I know has tried it - the puppets are always with a clan member. It's all sorcery, of a very high order, and very much a very closely held bit of information. Sort of like Lord Fu Shi's devices for controlling the Mihalli.

It's still up in the air as to if the puppets are true AIs, simpler 'robots', or other-planar beings entirely. Nobody wants to mess with the clans to find out, or get dead in the process. We ran into evidence of all three, so you place your bets and take your chances. Players usually see these at parties, so there's not much opportunity to examine them in any detail. The 'Adventures' text was a way to get the players to interact more closely with what we all thought was something very cool in Phil's games. My own text has the puppets as a recurring 'side plot', as they will be making occasional appearances in the books.

(This is, I think, a really cool example of how Phil took something he saw in South Asia and adapted it to his Sword and Planet world. I could be a grumpy old sourpuss and gripe that Tekumel is the very worst example of 'cultural appropriation' in gaming, but it's a nice morning hereabouts, I'm having a good breakfast, and I've got miniatures to paint and stories to write...)


Uncle,

Many thanks as well. How could I resist your "spoiler alert"!!! Such good stuff!!! Everyday I am sucked in more and more into this not so lonely bethorm called Tekumel!!! So let the Dzor and the Hra come and rear their ugly heads!!! We shall smite them with hand and hammer(and maybe an eye or two)!!! So back to my travels for now. Being a civil servant has its duties and orders to follow. I know you Uncle understand this well. So I am off!!! Thanks!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 30, 2016, 11:23:44 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;927875
"and stories to write...)"

Yes, please ;)
=


Hear, hear!!! This needs to be done(please)!!! I would say, put down the paintbrush and pick up the writing brush, but we all must do what we like!!! In due time I suppose. I have a bit of patience left...Good things come to those that wait!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on October 30, 2016, 01:07:15 PM
I found this article on line and thought it might be interesting given the discussion about puppets.

http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/master-puppeteer-bengaluru-lady-who-owns-indias-largest-puppet-collection-50442 (http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/master-puppeteer-bengaluru-lady-who-owns-indias-largest-puppet-collection-50442)

If I met her on Tekumel I sure wouldn't want to get her, or her clan angry.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on October 30, 2016, 01:13:15 PM
I could see the clan of Striding Incantation sending these to pay someone a visit should offence be given...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]494[/ATTACH]


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on October 30, 2016, 01:19:44 PM
Chirine,

A quick question about painting. What colours would you suggest for painting Livyani and Mu'ugalavyani skin tones. As per your recommendations I have been using Testors Red Earth for my Tsolyani miniatures, but based on the descriptions in the Sourcebook I'm not sure if this would be the "right" colour for the above two nations. Also, what colour would you use for Salarvyani?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 30, 2016, 02:31:23 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;927879
Hear, hear!!! This needs to be done(please)!!! I would say, put down the paintbrush and pick up the writing brush, but we all must do what we like!!! In due time I suppose. I have a bit of patience left...Good things come to those that wait!!!

H:0)


I do the best I can, given my health issues and those of the Missus. I have to hold down a full-time job as well as take care of her and the house, so I'm a bit tight on time, stamina, and energy.

I should also note that my miniatures feed my writing, and vice versa. I can tell you about the water slipping smoothly past the curve of the hull, simply because I'm holding that hull in my hand. And I do my miniatures as 'extras' in the production as I write the screenplay of the book; they are the 'players' in what's become my solo meta-game of Tekumel.

We'll get there. Have heart.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 30, 2016, 02:39:27 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;927905
I found this article on line and thought it might be interesting given the discussion about puppets.

http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/master-puppeteer-bengaluru-lady-who-owns-indias-largest-puppet-collection-50442 (http://www.thenewsminute.com/article/master-puppeteer-bengaluru-lady-who-owns-indias-largest-puppet-collection-50442)

If I met her on Tekumel I sure wouldn't want to get her, or her clan angry.

Shemek

Precisely! Welcome to Phil's footsteps as a Fulbright Scholar in South Asia... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 30, 2016, 02:43:09 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;927908
I could see the clan of Striding Incantation sending these to pay someone a visit should offence be given...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]494[/ATTACH]


Shemek

Exactly. Care to meet the twins' friends?

Of course you would...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]495[/ATTACH]

You'll meet The Sorcerer, The Priestess, The Warrior, and The Soldier in Book Five; they play an important part in the doings in Book Six, as well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 30, 2016, 02:55:04 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;927911
Chirine,

A quick question about painting. What colours would you suggest for painting Livyani and Mu'ugalavyani skin tones. As per your recommendations I have been using Testors Red Earth for my Tsolyani miniatures, but based on the descriptions in the Sourcebook I'm not sure if this would be the "right" colour for the above two nations. Also, what colour would you use for Salarvyani?

Shemek

Gotcha. Well, here we get into a difficult set of choices. Are you painting for the game table, or for the display case? I paint mostly with the fomer in mind, so I use the 'Red Earth' as is for everybody as the basic skin tone - it's the best I can find to match the old Floquil 'Samoa'. The Livyani are a lighter and more golden shade of this basic color, and the Red-Hats are a little redder in hue; personally, I just shade the basic paint with a little less or a little more water to get the right effect, and maybe - on a very special 'personality' figure - I'd add a little bit of extra color to give the right shaded hue. What I'd suggest is to match the Testor's paint with something in the Reaper line, and then use their 'Triad system' to get your shades. The other way to approach this is to use the P3 'Flesh Wash' on the Mu'uglavyani to bring up the more reddish-copper hue, and maybe an yellowish umber wash on the Livyani.

If I was doing 54mm or larger figures for the display case, I'd custom mix the colors as needed. For 25mm / 28mm on the table, it's nearly impossible to see the subtle shades in the skin tones from over a foot away. The thing to remember is that all of the humans in the Five Empires start out all being the same skin tone, with regional differences that you can see close up - in person, it's relatively easy for the local to see where one is from, but on the table it's going to be more by costume then by skin tone.

It's a very subtle question, and a very subtle technique. I looked at the photos of Phil's own figures for you, and he used the 'Samoa' as it is on everybody. He wanted mass on the table, as quickly as possible; I think that if he'd had the time to do some really detailed 54mm stuff, he'd have come up with the color formulas.

Does this help, at all?

EDIT: Forgot to say anything about the Salarvyani. Same advice. look at the Sourcebook, get an idea of the hues you want, and look in the reaper or other lines for related hues. Otherwise, you could also vary the primer color to help give the subtle shades. Let me do some experiments; I have the primers all out on the workbench as I'm spraying primer on chariot horses for the Missus.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 30, 2016, 04:57:13 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;927849
Something for Gronan, assuming that it loads...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]493[/ATTACH]


Oh, my Lord and little catfish.

I sometimes miss my miniatures collection, but after twenty years of non-use and a severe lack of storage space I had to make the hard choice.  It was those or the model railroad stuff, and the railroad stuff was getting a lot more use.

So it goes.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 30, 2016, 04:58:19 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;927643
Ah well, there goes the chance to get the PCs involved with them;).


But the characters would know all this.  So somebody might be interested in finding out who this clown is that claims to be from Striding Incantation.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 30, 2016, 06:41:01 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;927950
Oh, my Lord and little catfish.

I sometimes miss my miniatures collection, but after twenty years of non-use and a severe lack of storage space I had to make the hard choice.  It was those or the model railroad stuff, and the railroad stuff was getting a lot more use.

So it goes.

All I did was give your figures new 25 x 25 bases - I normally use rounds for individual figures, but I thought that the squares were more in keeping with their past history - then paint the bases the usual 'Hunter green' and add a dusting of flock. I hope you're pleased with the result.

Understood. I'm in the opposite boat; my railway models are all stored in boxes, but I do have hopes that the railway will rise from the ashes.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 30, 2016, 06:43:57 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;927951
But the characters would know all this.  So somebody might be interested in finding out who this clown is that claims to be from Striding Incantation.

I'll second this; the two clans are famous for being reclusive and very private, so anybody like the person you're describing is going to attract a lot of interest simply because of their being so, shall we say, 'public'...

Mayhem will ensue, as this will turn into a multi-faction brawl in very short order.

Why, look, my General! There's a fast trireme in the harbor that leaves for the Nyemesel Isles in half an hour! Shall I book us some deck chairs, so we can get as far away from this one as possible? :0
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 30, 2016, 06:46:11 PM
Humorously enough, I've done far more miniatures gaming since I got rid of my figs than I did in the 25 years beforehand.  GaryCon has been great for that for me.

And I'm glad my figures wound up in good hands.  For those playing at home, from left to right it's a Ral Partha knight painted up as a Teutonic Knight, a Lamming knight painted as Sir Polidor Haraldson from the armed with shield and falchon, and another Lamming knight painted up as Sir John Chandos of the Order of the Garter.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 30, 2016, 06:57:01 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;927961
Humorously enough, I've done far more miniatures gaming since I got rid of my figs than I did in the 25 years beforehand.  GaryCon has been great for that for me.

And I'm glad my figures wound up in good hands.  For those playing at home, from left to right it's a Ral Partha knight painted up as a Teutonic Knight, a Lamming knight painted as Sir Polidor Haraldson from the armed with shield and falchon, and another Lamming knight painted up as Sir John Chandos of the Order of the Garter.

A few of your figures came my way, from somebody who got them from somebody else; I don't know the exact chain involved. Your standard-bearer from your mediums came my way as well, and he's now in the tray with the rest of the legion on the shelves. I kinda liked the connection, from our time out at Phil's to the basement; there's a sense of continuity and history to it.

No idea what ever happened to my historicals after I sold them; the guy who bought them has dropped off the face of the earth. Perfect Mikie got the SF collection, and all that's left are the Tekumel figures. Such has always been that way; throughout my life, the Tekumel collection has always been the one thing that's been saved despite fire, flood, famine, and moves.

The new chariots look darn good, if I say so myself. I can now primer indoors in the winter, thanks to the extraction fan I have set up in the laundry room; I've had a very happy afternoon painting and building a little transportation for Lord Meren. One of the 'new' chariots is a TAG 'Children of the Nile" set that never got taken out of the blister pack until now - it's kinda nice to finally have it painted and based after all these years.

Yeah, there's a lot of nostalgia there. I'm finally unpacking all that stuff I bought fur our games decades ago, and never had the chance to do anything with. Moral of the story - once you become a publisher, your hobbies go right out the window...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on October 30, 2016, 07:11:23 PM
I gave away a good chunk of my old collection when I got into Warhammer back in the mid nineties.  Oh I'd owned Warhammer first edition back in the early eighties but who had 20 miniatures to make a regiment with when they were 12?  But I broke down and got into it when a local store started carrying it.  So, looking at the market place, and realizing that even Ral Partha had moved on to 28mm and feeling that many of the lines I wanted were gone for good, I broke my collection in three and gave it to friends.  Then I started collecting 28s.

I've been sculpting in 54mm of late and thinking of getting back into trying to do casting.  I've got half a dozen wizard school students in an RTV mould that has barely set up on the first half after a month.  I think it's getting there but it's very slow.  I'll have to buy some new RTV the stuff I've got's really old.  I also sculpted half a dozen pirates, and I'm working on some cyber punkers, and there's maybe two dozen unfinished fantasy models in a box somewhere.  I'm great at starting projects!

But as I tie all that up, I want to do a small range of 25mm fantasy and science fiction figures to go with my games.  They'll all have separate heads and one separate hand with a weapon.  Just enough to put some variety into groups.  I might pay RAFM to produce them.  I have no luck at all with casting.  :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 30, 2016, 07:20:07 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;927967
I gave away a good chunk of my old collection when I got into Warhammer back in the mid nineties.  Oh I'd owned Warhammer first edition back in the early eighties but who had 20 miniatures to make a regiment with when they were 12?  But I broke down and got into it when a local store started carrying it.  So, looking at the market place, and realizing that even Ral Partha had moved on to 28mm and feeling that many of the lines I wanted were gone for good, I broke my collection in three and gave it to friends.  Then I started collecting 28s.

I've been sculpting in 54mm of late and thinking of getting back into trying to do casting.  I've got half a dozen wizard school students in an RTV mould that has barely set up on the first half after a month.  I think it's getting there but it's very slow.  I'll have to buy some new RTV the stuff I've got's really old.  I also sculpted half a dozen pirates, and I'm working on some cyber punkers, and there's maybe two dozen unfinished fantasy models in a box somewhere.  I'm great at starting projects!

But as I tie all that up, I want to do a small range of 25mm fantasy and science fiction figures to go with my games.  They'll all have separate heads and one separate hand with a weapon.  Just enough to put some variety into groups.  I might pay RAFM to produce them.  I have no luck at all with casting.  :)

Yep; I can understand this.

Yes, the RTV does sound old - the catalyst can 'go off' with age. About all you can do is wait; keep the mold at room temperature, and be patient.

Casting is also an art; both Gronan and I can tell you lots of horror stories about life with the casting process... :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on October 30, 2016, 07:22:59 PM
Well, I've got a lead burn scar or two on my face and hands from the first couple experiments with plaster moulds.  Do you know that a plasticine master will seal moisture into the mould for months and even years if it isn't removed?  Five foot jet on my first attempt!  :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 30, 2016, 07:25:47 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;927973
Well, I've got a lead burn scar or two on my face and hands from the first couple experiments with plaster moulds.  Do you know that a plasticine master will seal moisture into the mould for months and even years if it isn't removed?  Five foot jet on my first attempt!  :D

Ah, steam explosions... What fun, eh?

I'm just glad you're still around to tell us about it!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on October 30, 2016, 08:36:43 PM
Between stray moisture, impure metals (HINT:  Do NOT I say again NOT buy your casting metal from a scrapyard), and the tendency of at least one of the machines to throw its top plate off at speed, I sometimes wonder how the hell we survived.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on October 30, 2016, 09:03:50 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;927979
Between stray moisture, impure metals (HINT:  Do NOT I say again NOT buy your casting metal from a scrapyard), and the tendency of at least one of the machines to throw its top plate off at speed, I sometimes wonder how the hell we survived.

We were young, ignorant, and damn lucky. That's how we survived.

Had a look at those Rocketships again; they were from Denny's, not Target. Have a look, if you would...

http://addictedtopewter.blogspot.com/2012/02/pulpy-retro-scifi-projects-rocket-ships.html (http://addictedtopewter.blogspot.com/2012/02/pulpy-retro-scifi-projects-rocket-ships.html)

I've got space on the Workbench...

Off to bed; see you all in the morning on my AM check-in. The new chariots look good, if I do say so myself...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on October 30, 2016, 10:22:45 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;927974
Ah, steam explosions... What fun, eh?

I'm just glad you're still around to tell us about it!

heh, well, I was pouring the lead and it started to pop and bubble back out of the hole and I thought, "that doesn't look good", so I took a step back about a tenth of a second before the metal sprayed right back out.

Then there was the first attempt at a home made spin caster throwing lead around like a sprinkler.  Fortunately I ducked around a corner until it ran out.  :D

And people say I have boring hobbies.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on October 31, 2016, 06:06:38 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;927852
Understood; it's like some British friends, who were amazed at my going through an ironmonger's shop in Cirencester and buying up all the small hammers on offer. They had grown up being told that one can get anything in the US, and the Missus had to explain that the kind of tools that I was looking for usually had to be imported from the UK...

No, you're right. The more 'due diligence' we did on these people, the more unsavory business practices we found going on. Between that the the pair we had in almost a year ago, we're a lot more careful who we deal with.

There was no destruction at all; it was a very nice night, but with a cool breeze in off the lake. How that breeze was dealt with was what terrified me.

Yeah, exactly like those guys:).

Well, sorry to hear that. It's good they made an obvious mistake and alerted you.

...and the plot thickens;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;927856
I could be a grumpy old sourpuss and gripe that Tekumel is the very worst example of 'cultural appropriation' in gaming, but it's a nice morning hereabouts, I'm having a good breakfast, and I've got miniatures to paint and stories to write...

I either don't even understand what "cultural appropriation" is supposed to be, or if I do understand it, I don't get why it's a bad thing...so I'd vote for "writing stories";).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;927951
But the characters would know all this.  So somebody might be interested in finding out who this clown is that claims to be from Striding Incantation.

Still, that's not like being involved with the clan. And I assume such clowns don't live long without the need for adventurers.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;927979
Between stray moisture, impure metals (HINT:  Do NOT I say again NOT buy your casting metal from a scrapyard), and the tendency of at least one of the machines to throw its top plate off at speed, I sometimes wonder how the hell we survived.

I can only commend your reflexes, and your Save vs Breath;).
 
Quote from: David Johansen;927991
heh, well, I was pouring the lead and it started to pop and bubble back out of the hole and I thought, "that doesn't look good", so I took a step back about a tenth of a second before the metal sprayed right back out.

Then there was the first attempt at a home made spin caster throwing lead around like a sprinkler.  Fortunately I ducked around a corner until it ran out.  :D

And people say I have boring hobbies.

Oh, the irony:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on October 31, 2016, 08:02:24 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;927923
I do the best I can, given my health issues and those of the Missus. I have to hold down a full-time job as well as take care of her and the house, so I'm a bit tight on time, stamina, and energy.

I should also note that my miniatures feed my writing, and vice versa. I can tell you about the water slipping smoothly past the curve of the hull, simply because I'm holding that hull in my hand. And I do my miniatures as 'extras' in the production as I write the screenplay of the book; they are the 'players' in what's become my solo meta-game of Tekumel.

We'll get there. Have heart.


Yes, yes!!! Remember how some of us feel. Your story deserves to be read. Not to mention a deluxe leatherbound volume with silk bookmark!!! Missus and health first!!! Have heart I will!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 01, 2016, 06:39:40 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;928023
Yeah, exactly like those guys:).

Well, sorry to hear that. It's good they made an obvious mistake and alerted you.

...and the plot thickens;).

I either don't even understand what "cultural appropriation" is supposed to be, or if I do understand it, I don't get why it's a bad thing...so I'd vote for "writing stories";).

They kept making more and more amazing claims about their publishing expertise and  connections in the industry, and the vast sums of money at their disposal. Like any bad con-artists, they didn't know when to shut up - and they failed to understand just how much information is available to the patient researcher.

It will; oh, it will... :)

It seems to be one of the new 'buzzwords' in some gaming circles; it seems to be a way to complain about something or someone that the complainer does not like. Cultural politics, gender politics, seuxal politics. Not in my basement, thank you...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 01, 2016, 06:40:39 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;928030
Yes, yes!!! Remember how some of us feel. Your story deserves to be read. Not to mention a deluxe leatherbound volume with silk bookmark!!! Missus and health first!!! Have heart I will!!!

H;0)

Thank you! I'm writing as best I can, but being dyslexic it does take time. We'll get there, sooner rather then later... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 01, 2016, 12:00:07 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;928185
They kept making more and more amazing claims about their publishing expertise and  connections in the industry, and the vast sums of money at their disposal. Like any bad con-artists, they didn't know when to shut up - and they failed to understand just how much information is available to the patient researcher.

It will; oh, it will... :)

It seems to be one of the new 'buzzwords' in some gaming circles; it seems to be a way to complain about something or someone that the complainer does not like. Cultural politics, gender politics, seuxal politics. Not in my basement, thank you...
I strongly prefer incompetent con artists, they're easier to catch:D!

Not in my sessions, either! What I wonder is whether that's the misuse of the term, or the term itself was created as a misuse of common sense;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 01, 2016, 05:39:44 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;928206
I strongly prefer incompetent con artists, they're easier to catch:D!

Not in my sessions, either! What I wonder is whether that's the misuse of the term, or the term itself was created as a misuse of common sense;).


Agreed. What I'm unhappy with was the two years of my life that were wasted dealing with them, and all the stamina and energy that I could have used for more positive things. They screwed up a lot of things, and we're still dealing with some of the after-effects.

Same puzzlement here. I see this kind of thing go by on the Internet, and heaven forfend if one asks the user of these kinds of terms for an explanation or clarification. The usual results that I've gotten is confused babble, as they don't seem to know themselves, or else dead silence. These days, a lot of them often post somewhere on the web, which makes my visitor screening process a whole lot easier. And it cuts down on the losses from the collection, too, as most of these kinds of people that I've had to deal with also feel very 'entitled' and as a result seem to feel that helping themselves to what's on the shelves redresses the injustices of our society. I freely admit that I could be mistaken about all this, however; having a couple of Amnesty International activists and some people of color  in the family may have gotten my expectations up too high.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 01, 2016, 05:56:58 PM
Uncle,

How did the Professor handle encounters with computer-like technology during game play(if any)? Did you ever encounter anything similar to the device mentioned in The Prince of Skulls, that the Sarku worshippers went to ask their questions of?

Thank you,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 01, 2016, 07:45:45 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;928246
Uncle,

How did the Professor handle encounters with computer-like technology during game play(if any)? Did you ever encounter anything similar to the device mentioned in The Prince of Skulls, that the Sarku worshippers went to ask their questions of?

Thank you,

H:0)

We had lots of encounters with various artificial intelligences - or, rather, non-living-tissue-based beings of one sort or another. These ranged from single Ru'un and Yeleth to the powerful AIs that run Kashi and the South Pole military base. Phil would just 'role-play' them, playing them as yet another NPC. I do not think he ever rolled stats for the more powerful AIs - how do you roll up a sentient planetoid? but I know he did for the lower-level ones. Our rule of thumb was that once the object (whatever it was, or looked like) started talking, we treated it as an NPC to be respected and to be polite to, just as we would for any other life-form we ran into. We did shoot back if shot at, but otherwise tried very hard to talk through the encounter.

They were all part of Phil's meta-game; they all had their own objectives and goals, and for all intents and purposes where just as much 'real people' as our PCs were. Phil was a gifted actor, and could play any 'part' he needed to. As for actual game mechanics, he used what he had on the table 'as is', and simply rolled percentile dice as needed when there was any sort of options on offer. There is nothing in any of his rules sets that I have copies of (both published and unpublished) on this specific situation - he just did it, treating it as he would any other encounter and being.

And I will say that we got very, very careful about handling ancient technology, as the number of times that the supposed 'dumb box' turned out to be both sentient and active was pretty high.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on November 02, 2016, 12:21:50 PM
I'm not if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but I see S&G v.2 Players Handbook has been released on Drivethru RPG.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 02, 2016, 01:57:07 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;928326
I'm not if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but I see S&G v.2 Players Handbook has been released on Drivethru RPG.

Shemek.

Thank you, Lord Shemek!

Wait, what is that 32 page summary? And why are there 2 more, 16 pages each?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 02, 2016, 06:08:42 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;928254
We had lots of encounters with various artificial intelligences - or, rather, non-living-tissue-based beings of one sort or another. These ranged from single Ru'un and Yeleth to the powerful AIs that run Kashi and the South Pole military base. Phil would just 'role-play' them, playing them as yet another NPC. I do not think he ever rolled stats for the more powerful AIs - how do you roll up a sentient planetoid? but I know he did for the lower-level ones. Our rule of thumb was that once the object (whatever it was, or looked like) started talking, we treated it as an NPC to be respected and to be polite to, just as we would for any other life-form we ran into. We did shoot back if shot at, but otherwise tried very hard to talk through the encounter.

They were all part of Phil's meta-game; they all had their own objectives and goals, and for all intents and purposes where just as much 'real people' as our PCs were. Phil was a gifted actor, and could play any 'part' he needed to. As for actual game mechanics, he used what he had on the table 'as is', and simply rolled percentile dice as needed when there was any sort of options on offer. There is nothing in any of his rules sets that I have copies of (both published and unpublished) on this specific situation - he just did it, treating it as he would any other encounter and being.

And I will say that we got very, very careful about handling ancient technology, as the number of times that the supposed 'dumb box' turned out to be both sentient and active was pretty high.


Thank you. Just wondering if you can remember off hand any names used to refer to ancient technology in game, such as "life-stones" and "dumb box", etc? Thanks.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 02, 2016, 06:37:07 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;928326
I'm not if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but I see S&G v.2 Players Handbook has been released on Drivethru RPG.

Shemek.


I'm told that this is a hard-cover reprint of the Lou Zocchi / Gamescience edition that Sarah Prince typeset and I keylined while at Adventure Games; Phil was so upset at the way Lou had done S&S I that he talked Arneson into doing S&G II for Lou. Lou, for his part, was not very pleased; he'd gotten the idea that Phil was doing an updated version of EPT, and not an entirely new game that was going to be a huge tome (945 pages, in the incomplete manuscript.) Lou and Phil fell out over this, which was one of the reasons why S&G III was never finished. Phil then approached Dave about publishing the entire game, and Dave simply balked. S&G was never actually play-tested, as far as I know, and we only used little bits of II out at Phil's. I, on the other hand, we used constantly.

I have to say that from a marketing standpoint, republication of this thirty-year old book is a little odd; it puts the 'in-house product' in direct competition with one's major licensee and the new RPG that they did.  I would have out the resources and effort into republishing Phil's novels, myself, as I would have thought they they'd be of more interest to gamers interested in Tekumel.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 02, 2016, 06:45:45 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;928339
Thank you, Lord Shemek!

Wait, what is that 32 page summary? And why are there 2 more, 16 pages each?


These would be the 'Combat' and 'Sorcery' Summaries, which are digest versions of the actual game mechanics. Phil did these after Dave Arneson told him that the rules were, quote, "unplayable and too complicated". By themselves, they make for a nice easy-to-play set of RPG rules, and they were pretty much what we used for rules out at Phil's when he bothered to use any formal rules at all.

I'm still baffled by S&G as a game. S&G I is priceless as a reference, but S&G II is simply baroque in terms of game mechanics. When I was keylining it, the sentence "Reach range of the character is determined by the width of the base frontage of the figure..." simply stunned me; the thing is, if you use all the rules, the world's largest and most complex miniatures skirmish game. S&G III, at least in the manuscript that I have, sort of heads back into RPG territory.

I would still suggest to people that they get EPT as their introductory game, and "Bethorm" as the advanced game. Both work quite well, and are complete games in and of themselves. S&G, as a game, is still incomplete after all this time, and still very hard to use in actual game play. Lots of very useful elements, though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 02, 2016, 06:51:41 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;928365
Thank you. Just wondering if you can remember off hand any names used to refer to ancient technology in game, such as "life-stones" and "dumb box", etc? Thanks.

H:0)

Ah. 'Power rod", 'Lightning-bringer', 'air-car', 'tubeway car', 'AI', 'picture box', 'floater', 'grav-lift', 'lift shaft', and similar terms. We were all SF fans, so we tended to use the 'usual terminology' current in SF in the late 1970s and early 1980s. We did not use 'droid' or 'phaser'; using terms from either "Star Wars" or "Star Trek" really annoyed Phil, and he'd be quite vocal about suggesting that one needed to broaden their reading material. He was quite upfront about preferring what he referred to as 'the classics' of 1930s and 1940s SF.

Does this help, at all?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 02, 2016, 11:30:01 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;928370
Ah. 'Power rod", 'Lightning-bringer', 'air-car', 'tubeway car', 'AI', 'picture box', 'floater', 'grav-lift', 'lift shaft', and similar terms. We were all SF fans, so we tended to use the 'usual terminology' current in SF in the late 1970s and early 1980s. We did not use 'droid' or 'phaser'; using terms from either "Star Wars" or "Star Trek" really annoyed Phil, and he'd be quite vocal about suggesting that one needed to broaden their reading material. He was quite upfront about preferring what he referred to as 'the classics' of 1930s and 1940s SF.

Does this help, at all?


Ahh! I will have to go back to Galactic Patrol and Gray Lensman for some terms.

Thanks again,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 03, 2016, 05:10:19 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;928369
These would be the 'Combat' and 'Sorcery' Summaries, which are digest versions of the actual game mechanics. Phil did these after Dave Arneson told him that the rules were, quote, "unplayable and too complicated". By themselves, they make for a nice easy-to-play set of RPG rules, and they were pretty much what we used for rules out at Phil's when he bothered to use any formal rules at all.

I'm still baffled by S&G as a game. S&G I is priceless as a reference, but S&G II is simply baroque in terms of game mechanics. When I was keylining it, the sentence "Reach range of the character is determined by the width of the base frontage of the figure..." simply stunned me; the thing is, if you use all the rules, the world's largest and most complex miniatures skirmish game. S&G III, at least in the manuscript that I have, sort of heads back into RPG territory.

I would still suggest to people that they get EPT as their introductory game, and "Bethorm" as the advanced game. Both work quite well, and are complete games in and of themselves. S&G, as a game, is still incomplete after all this time, and still very hard to use in actual game play. Lots of very useful elements, though.

That's what I would be doing. The 2nd tome is just something I want to have, even if I end up using only the first, which I've had for a while now, or probably the first and the summary of the system:).

So, the 32-page summary is just the two 16-pages summaries combined, is that so;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 03, 2016, 03:59:29 PM
HappyBirthdayFiruBaYaker!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 04, 2016, 05:35:19 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;928388
Ahh! I will have to go back to Galactic Patrol and Gray Lensman for some terms.

Thanks again,

H:0)

Exactly! Have fun! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 04, 2016, 05:38:23 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;928402
That's what I would be doing. The 2nd tome is just something I want to have, even if I end up using only the first, which I've had for a while now, or probably the first and the summary of the system:).

So, the 32-page summary is just the two 16-pages summaries combined, is that so;)?

Understood, and agreed. As a resource that gives some idea of how Phil thought his world should work, it can't be beat; there are all sorts of little asides and tidbits in there, buried in the game mechanics, and that are actually pretty illuminating.

I would guess so; I already have a half-dozed copies of the original, plus all of the later versions, so I won't be picking up this version.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 04, 2016, 05:39:02 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;928459
HappyBirthdayFiruBaYaker!!!

Yes, indeed! And I miss Dave and Gary, too; they were quite the trio... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 04, 2016, 06:52:23 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;928459
HappyBirthdayFiruBaYaker!!!

Really? Happy Birthday, FiruBa Yaker!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;928643
Understood, and agreed. As a resource that gives some idea of how Phil thought his world should work, it can't be beat; there are all sorts of little asides and tidbits in there, buried in the game mechanics, and that are actually pretty illuminating.

I would guess so; I already have a half-dozed copies of the original, plus all of the later versions, so I won't be picking up this version.

Thanks, than it's good for my purposes! I feel confident I'd be able to find out most of these.
Then I'll keep using my Bethorm-based system. (There's a point where, after enough-houserules, I just call systems "based on X", and that point is rapidly approaching).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 04, 2016, 07:11:18 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;928644
Yes, indeed! And I miss Dave and Gary, too; they were quite the trio... :)

Sigh.  To absent friends.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 04, 2016, 07:37:22 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;928663
Really? Happy Birthday, FiruBa Yaker!

Thanks, than it's good for my purposes! I feel confident I'd be able to find out most of these.
Then I'll keep using my Bethorm-based system. (There's a point where, after enough-houserules, I just call systems "based on X", and that point is rapidly approaching).

I think you'll find it useful then. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 04, 2016, 07:45:39 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;928665
Sigh.  To absent friends.


I hear you. Had you heard that Duane Jenkins had passed away last month after a long illness? :(

(Aside from being one of us at Coffman Union, he played Sir Fang the Vampire Lord  in the original Blackmoor campaign - and was why the elves who controlled access to the dungeon of the castle had hand-operated pumps to spray holy water at the entrance to the first level to keep him from escaping.)

Painting Nubian archers, tonight; just the details left to do, and they're ready for action. Next up: Egyptian slingers, spearmen, and axemen. As Phil used to say, "A guy in a kilt is a guy in a kilt is a guy in a kilt." The trireme will her her sails this weekend; I dug out the fine canvas and the rigging lines.

Onward! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 04, 2016, 10:08:22 PM
Yes, I heard about Duane, though I've never met him.

And earlier this summer a dear modeling friend in Rockford IL passed away.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 05, 2016, 04:39:28 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;928254
We had lots of encounters with various artificial intelligences - or, rather, non-living-tissue-based beings of one sort or another. These ranged from single Ru'un and Yeleth to the powerful AIs that run Kashi and the South Pole military base. Phil would just 'role-play' them, playing them as yet another NPC.


I remember one encounter... I do not remember how we got into this mess because I think we were on the way to Mar... we ran into a small maintenance robot or something.  It spoke no language we knew and vice versa, and for about the next half hour Phil role played the robot slowly teaching itself our language contextually.  And it was totally convincing.

Amazing.  Simply amazing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 05, 2016, 05:31:49 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;928793
I remember one encounter... I do not remember how we got into this mess because I think we were on the way to Mar... we ran into a small maintenance robot or something.  It spoke no language we knew and vice versa, and for about the next half hour Phil role played the robot slowly teaching itself our language contextually.  And it was totally convincing.

Amazing.  Simply amazing.

I can only bow to the skills this memory shows, for that is something I'm sure I couldn't do as a Referee.
(At least, not yet. Ask me again in a few years).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 05, 2016, 05:33:02 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;928691
Yes, I heard about Duane, though I've never met him.

And earlier this summer a dear modeling friend in Rockford IL passed away.

Not surprised; he was one of the Arneson-Wesely group at CSA.

Geez. Very sorry to hear that, my General. :(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 05, 2016, 05:36:04 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;928793
I remember one encounter... I do not remember how we got into this mess because I think we were on the way to Mar... we ran into a small maintenance robot or something.  It spoke no language we knew and vice versa, and for about the next half hour Phil role played the robot slowly teaching itself our language contextually.  And it was totally convincing.

Amazing.  Simply amazing.

Yep; one of Phil's more amazing nights, too. I think it was when we were trying to get home after that stupid little mud-brick castle siege, when we stumbled into a tubeway car station out in the middle of the desert. Of course. Phil's nasty deserts all started to look the same after the first couple of times we were in them, so it could have been later on...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 05, 2016, 05:45:14 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;928806
I can only bow to the skills this memory shows, for that is something I'm sure I couldn't do as a Referee.
(At least, not yet. Ask me again in a few years).

Phil was, I think, first and foremost a gifted story-teller - he could have held his own in any marketplace in South Asia, and from what I gather, he did. He was, after that, a gifted actor; he could play any part on his green-carpeted game table stage, and do it utterly convincingly. Playing against his Ancient Egyptian army with him in command was truly intimidating - you were quite convinced that Ramesses II had come back from the dead and was about to do some very heavy-duty smiting.

Which made the battles of Mar and Anch'ke so sweet - they were, I think, the only times we ever got the better of the old man in a miniatures game. He was just really, really good at what he did, and was a very canny player. It also did not help that his miniatures were exquisite - our stuff looked crude in comparison, and we felt a very real sense of going up against the first team. Which was all part of the 'gamesmanship', so we just became better painters... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Spinachcat on November 05, 2016, 06:27:05 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;928802
Go to the "Ask Chirine" thread and ask him about "The Akbar and Jeff Traveling Tekumel Road Show".


Chirine, please tell us the terrible story!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 05, 2016, 07:09:09 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;928817
Chirine, please tell us the terrible story!!

Ah, "You're a braver man that I am, Gunga Din!"

The Akbar and Jeff Travelling Tekumel Road Show was our name for the decade we spent trying to sell Tekumel products to the gaming hobby. The name is taken from the "Life in Hell" comic strip, for reasons which will become more clear as we go along. We started doing this at Dave Arneson's company, Adventure Games, where we were referred to as (with no small contempt on the part of the 'real' AGI staffers, whom were all gaming or re-enactment buddies of Dave's) The Tekumel Boat People. We lived in the basement of the building at 1278 Selby, where the water came up through the floor when it rained and down from the ceiling when somebody flushed the toilet. As a result, we had put down pallets and hung plastic tarps to keep the - shall we say - 'wet' off the merchandise. The casting machine - I had bought the 25mm Tekumel line from Ral Partha - was out in the garage, and there was no heat in either location in the building. It did make life interesting, trying to cast up figures and pick orders.

Tekumel was always the bastard step-child at AGI; the only reason why Dave had it in his catalog was to piss off everyone at TSR, especially the Blumes. Being the dumb fans that we were, we didn't realize just how much we were going to be stuck in the middle of The Great Feud until we did our first Gen Con, and we got crapped on by everybody from TSR for being there - with the exception of Gary, who was always unfailingly nice to me personally. Dave put no more then very token amounts of money into the line, nor did he put anything into marketing or distribution as well. Everything came out of my back pocket, as I got only $35 a day from Dave and that only then actually out at a convention - I had to pay for my own food and expenses out of that. In return for this astonishing sum, I put in eight hours a day running miniatures games and then six hours a day running RPG games to try and promote Tekumel. We had to supply all our own displays, all our own equipment, and all our own time to get the products ready for the shows. Then we'd do the set-up, shilling the merchandise, and tear-down. (A lot of money came out of my back pocket, with no hope of ever getting it back, too.) Not much food, not much sleep, not much of anything, and all we had to show for it was the satisfaction of knowing that we were doing our best to talk about a world-setting that we loved.

While we loved Tekumel, we ran into a lot of real ass-holes at conventions, who were more then ready to tell us what a crappy world Tekumel was, what crappy products we had, what crappy figures we made, and what crappy people we were for not supporting 'System X' or something. Lots and lots of abusive jerks - gaming has never been short of them, let me assure you. We'd have to stand there and take it from them, keeping happy smiles on our faces, because we were there to sell the merchandise and had to let them kick us in the balls as often as they wanted to.

And behind the scenes, everything we were trying to do was being undermined by the people back home, mostly in Phil's other group, who'd tried their own had at being A Big Publishing Company, and not done very well. See also the comment from the same people made recently:

Me: "Why are you always bad-mouthing us?"
Them: "Because you are so good at what you do, you're making us look bad."

I've been screwed over by gamers in all sorts of ways, from people who thought that they could run a game convention better that I could (they couldn't) to people who thought that they could run a game company better then I could (they couldn't) and who whined and complained about it when they actually had to do some actual work to people who have right flat out stolen stuff off the table and from our house - there's been a lot of that, over the decades - because they are gamers and entitled to whatever they want.

(My wife is still amazed that I still like gaming, after all this time, and commented that I have the patience of a saint. Give the hundreds of ass-holes I've had to deal with over the years - see other posts back up-thread for more examples - she may very well be right. But she also paid for the double-face deadbolt locks on the house, and came up with our very restrictive policies on visitors.)

So I can sympathize with anyone who calls it quits. I walked away in 1987 and I walked away again in 2012 over the same old people doing the same old thing. Been there, done that, got the cases of T-shirts I got stuck with after the client stiffed me on them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Spinachcat on November 05, 2016, 08:45:18 PM
Wow. That blows chunks.

I was an Akbar & Jeff fan too. Cool comic.

BTW, were the TSR people asshats to all other RPG publishers? Or just the Arneson Heretics? Way back when, I'd heard some stories of TSR people trying to get Chaosium pushed out of early GenCons, but not from any reputable sources.

Why didn't Dave support Tekumel? Was it just bad business sense? I get the motivation to piss off TSR, but considering the need for AGI to make a profit, its weird that you weren't supported.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 05, 2016, 09:18:34 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;928831
Wow. That blows chunks.

I was an Akbar & Jeff fan too. Cool comic.

BTW, were the TSR people asshats to all other RPG publishers? Or just the Arneson Heretics? Way back when, I'd heard some stories of TSR people trying to get Chaosium pushed out of early GenCons, but not from any reputable sources.

Why didn't Dave support Tekumel? Was it just bad business sense? I get the motivation to piss off TSR, but considering the need for AGI to make a profit, its weird that you weren't supported.

It did, and still does in a lot of ways. I get a lot of would-be tycoons trying to get in my front door, as they're convinced that they are the hottest thing since sliced bread.

It depended. if you were successful, the various minions would give you hassles; if you were a nobody, and flying under the radar, they left you alone because you didn't count in their view of the world.

AGI never 'needed' to show a profit. It was funded entirely out of Dave's D&D royalties, and to the best of my first-hand knowledge no AGI product ever paid for what it cost to print, let alone sell. AGI was pretty much Dave's way of getting back at TSR for getting so much crap from the people down there; he pushed the creation of GAMA for the same reason - it was, for all intents and purposes at the time, the 'anti-TSR coalition' in the industry. Which industry consisted of TSR, and some pocket change that everybody else fought tooth and nail for.

Given what we had, and our skill set, if Dave had put the kind of money, energy, and attention into Tekumel that he did into projects like "Mutant", the history of gaming would have been very different. Please keep in mind that I liked and respected Dave, and still think he's a great guy; it's just that after a great many years of trying to 'give the secret of my success' to him and his buddies on how to sell the product, he and they never did understand what made the game hobby and industry tick. Dave was - right up to the day AGI closed - utterly convinced that what gamers really, really wanted was to play black-powder historical games, both board and miniatures styles. This 'role-playing thing' was all nonsense, and just a passing fad with no staying power. Dave's product line consisted of games done by his friends who had gotten messed around by TSR, and that was pretty much the basis for the company.

Tekumel, being one of those 'role-playing things', just never had any support internally at AGI. I had originally contracted with AGI to publish my miniatures rules, and a 'game developer' was appointed to 'develop' the rules into a product. I never had any meetings with the guy; never heard anything back from either him, Dave, or AGI as a company. After the year's contract ran out, I got the rules back, did them at my own expense as a 'lunch-time project', and they sold pretty darn well (if I do say so myself) over the decades. Same thing with all of Phil's texts; print runs of 250 for each, and that was it. We had it all, at the beginning of the 1980s, and it was all simply frittered away.

(If I sound all cranky, it may be because I've spent the day in the game room getting new shelves up to re-organize the files and archives. I'd rather have been painting, thank you. I've had forty years of cleaning up after other people's bright ideas, and it's gotten old. Sorry.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 05, 2016, 11:08:15 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;928808
Yep; one of Phil's more amazing nights, too. I think it was when we were trying to get home after that stupid little mud-brick castle siege, when we stumbled into a tubeway car station out in the middle of the desert. Of course. Phil's nasty deserts all started to look the same after the first couple of times we were in them, so it could have been later on...

You may be right.  And you are CERTAINLY right that one damn desert looks like another.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 05, 2016, 11:11:09 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;928833
It did, and still does in a lot of ways. I get a lot of would-be tycoons trying to get in my front door, as they're convinced that they are the hottest thing since sliced bread.

It depended. if you were successful, the various minions would give you hassles; if you were a nobody, and flying under the radar, they left you alone because you didn't count in their view of the world.

AGI never 'needed' to show a profit. It was funded entirely out of Dave's D&D royalties, and to the best of my first-hand knowledge no AGI product ever paid for what it cost to print, let alone sell. AGI was pretty much Dave's way of getting back at TSR for getting so much crap from the people down there; he pushed the creation of GAMA for the same reason - it was, for all intents and purposes at the time, the 'anti-TSR coalition' in the industry. Which industry consisted of TSR, and some pocket change that everybody else fought tooth and nail for.

Given what we had, and our skill set, if Dave had put the kind of money, energy, and attention into Tekumel that he did into projects like "Mutant", the history of gaming would have been very different. Please keep in mind that I liked and respected Dave, and still think he's a great guy; it's just that after a great many years of trying to 'give the secret of my success' to him and his buddies on how to sell the product, he and they never did understand what made the game hobby and industry tick. Dave was - right up to the day AGI closed - utterly convinced that what gamers really, really wanted was to play black-powder historical games, both board and miniatures styles. This 'role-playing thing' was all nonsense, and just a passing fad with no staying power. Dave's product line consisted of games done by his friends who had gotten messed around by TSR, and that was pretty much the basis for the company.

Tekumel, being one of those 'role-playing things', just never had any support internally at AGI. I had originally contracted with AGI to publish my miniatures rules, and a 'game developer' was appointed to 'develop' the rules into a product. I never had any meetings with the guy; never heard anything back from either him, Dave, or AGI as a company. After the year's contract ran out, I got the rules back, did them at my own expense as a 'lunch-time project', and they sold pretty darn well (if I do say so myself) over the decades. Same thing with all of Phil's texts; print runs of 250 for each, and that was it. We had it all, at the beginning of the 1980s, and it was all simply frittered away.

(If I sound all cranky, it may be because I've spent the day in the game room getting new shelves up to re-organize the files and archives. I'd rather have been painting, thank you. I've had forty years of cleaning up after other people's bright ideas, and it's gotten old. Sorry.)

The rest of all y'all folks need to realize that a LOT of this is shit we only found out much, much later.  Lambs to the slaughter we were, in some ways.

"We are two little Hmelu who have lost our ways..."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: GameDaddy on November 05, 2016, 11:40:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;928833
...Please keep in mind that I liked and respected Dave, and still think he's a great guy; it's just that after a great many years of trying to 'give the secret of my success' to him and his buddies on how to sell the product, he and they never did understand what made the game hobby and industry tick. Dave was - right up to the day AGI closed - utterly convinced that what gamers really, really wanted was to play black-powder historical games, both board and miniatures styles. This 'role-playing thing' was all nonsense, and just a passing fad with no staying power. Dave's product line consisted of games done by his friends who had gotten messed around by TSR, and that was pretty much the basis for the company.

Tekumel, being one of those 'role-playing things', just never had any support internally at AGI. I had originally contracted with AGI to publish my miniatures rules, and a 'game developer' was appointed to 'develop' the rules into a product. I never had any meetings with the guy; never heard anything back from either him, Dave, or AGI as a company. After the year's contract ran out, I got the rules back, did them at my own expense as a 'lunch-time project', and they sold pretty darn well (if I do say so myself) over the decades. Same thing with all of Phil's texts; print runs of 250 for each, and that was it. We had it all, at the beginning of the 1980s, and it was all simply frittered away.

Now that's interesting. Would have never guessed this based on my unofficial Interview with Dave back in 2004. A couple things. Did know he was a grognard, and that he liked naval miniatures games. Always thought he was very much like me, and liked both wargames, and roleplaying games, with about an equal measure. These days I lean towards running RPGs more than playing, or wargaming, but I'm still open for just running or playing about any good game.

First time I played EPT was in a campaign around 1980 or so, then after that, it was 1987 before I met another guy that was willing to run the game. I never saw EPT as available, or even on display in any of the hobby shops, toy stores, or game stores that I frequented out in Colorado in the late 70's or early 80's. I heard about the game of course, and it always got great reviews and people who actually had played it spoke about having a good time playing it. After 1981 I didn't see anyone at Ghengis Con (That being the big annual wargaming & RPG convention in Denver) running EPT, and it was simply this mystical thing that was just spoken of, and not seen anywhere in my gaming circles.

Same thing with Dave Arneson. He was pretty much off my D&D radar after 1979 or so (more on this later), and he didn't get back on my gaming radar until about 2004 or so. I thought for awhile he just quit and was completely out of gaming all together. I took a sabbatical from any type of gaming myself beginning in 1986, and that break would last until 1991 or so, and then followed that up with another break from 1995 to 1999. These breaks were not caused by gaming, but by other real life distractions that expanded to envelope all the other aspects of my life. Now cold winters indoors in Indiana in the late autumn and winter now give me ample time to work on games in my spare time.

...Which brings me to my question. Once I did get back into gaming, I went looking for a copy of EPT. The original TSR boxed set was already sadly out reach, being in the hands of collectors that would bid hundreds, if not thousands of dollars for a single complete original copy of the game. I was talking with Lou Zocchi one day about some of my favorite older games, and I mentioned that I had always been looking for a copy of Empire of the Petal Throne, and he went into the back of his booth, and he fished up a copy of EPT: Swords & Glory Vol I. that had been sitting on the lee side of one of his magazine wracks and said I could have it for $20 (Which I snatched up of course), and after some further discussion ended up buying a perfect set of AWI miniatures rules that he also had in stock, that was a first edition, that had been originally published in 1976. If there's something you really, really want in gaming, even if you don't even think it exists, you can ask Lou about it. If he doesn't have a copy of what you are looking for, he knows someone who does and will hook you up,or will find someone who is interested in creating it for you. He also does real magic tricks.

When I asked him about the other EPT rules he simply said they were out of print, and that he had sold out the copies M.A.R. that he had licensed under Gamescience to him to make and sell. Now this book I had (the blue book) was originally published in 1983. Now Dave was still selling EPT at that time. Did he just do another license to Lou for some extra income, or is there another interesting story about all that?

Also, if anyone here happens to have an extra copy of Swords & Glory Vol II: Players Handbook, at a reasonable price, I'd be interested in picking it up, just so that I have the full Gamescience published set. Right now I just use D&D to run EPT, and that works perfectly well, but it would be kind of nice to have the complete EPT.

The unplanned interview with Dave Arneson (https://plus.google.com/+DirkCollins/posts/f6hE5on5RCe)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 06, 2016, 12:10:23 AM
The original EPT is now available in PDF.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 06, 2016, 01:08:33 AM
Also, part of what went on with AGI is that Dave, bless his memory, thought the tastes of he and his friends were more mainstream than they were.  In my upcoming book (soon, real soon) I have a chapter talking about how TSR as late as 1975 had way more wargame products than RPG products. But in 1976 Dragon split off of Little Wars, and Little Wars died in 77 or 78.

By the time Dave started AGI, all the "wargamers with some RPG interests" like he and his friends already had D&D and had pretty much ignored AD&D.  But the marketplace for that kind of gamer was saturated.  He was, essentially, almost ten years too late, and never realized the saturation of what he wanted to be his market.

Also, the D&D bubble burst around the end of 83 and things were never the same.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 06, 2016, 09:23:32 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;928845
You may be right.  And you are CERTAINLY right that one damn desert looks like another.

I dunno; I'll check my campaign notes and see. It's been a while.

Have we mentioned how much we hated desert trips?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 06, 2016, 09:26:56 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;928846
The rest of all y'all folks need to realize that a LOT of this is shit we only found out much, much later.  Lambs to the slaughter we were, in some ways.

"We are two little Hmelu who have lost our ways..."

Oh, yes, very much so. One of the sadder things about being interviewed by one of the recent D&D documentaries has sitting in or watching all of the interviews with the people we knew back then. Some of them were, and still are, real creeps.

Gronan and I learned the hard way to believe nothing, trust no one, and rely on ourselves for anything. Otherwise, there was a pretty good chance we'd get ripped off. Being nice people was a bad idea, we found...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 06, 2016, 09:38:58 AM
From GameDaddy:
Now that's interesting. Would have never guessed this based on my unofficial Interview with Dave back in 2004. A couple things. Did know he was a grognard, and that he liked naval miniatures games. Always thought he was very much like me, and liked both wargames, and roleplaying games, with about an equal measure. These days I lean towards running RPGs more than playing, or wargaming, but I'm still open for just running or playing about any good game.

Keep in mind that our fun times were in the 1980s and your interview was in the 2000s; Dave had had twenty years of finding out  that his ideas about gaming - and Gary's too, for that matter - were not in step with the hobby or the industry. I talked with him just before he passed away, and he told me the same things he'd told you. Just twenty years of bitter experience between the two data points.

First time I played EPT was in a campaign around 1980 or so, then after that, it was 1987 before I met another guy that was willing to run the game. I never saw EPT as available, or even on display in any of the hobby shops, toy stores, or game stores that I frequented out in Colorado in the late 70's or early 80's. I heard about the game of course, and it always got great reviews and people who actually had played it spoke about having a good time playing it. After 1981 I didn't see anyone at Ghengis Con (That being the big annual wargaming & RPG convention in Denver) running EPT, and it was simply this mystical thing that was just spoken of, and not seen anywhere in my gaming circles.

Very accurate; once TSR dropped it, that was it for publicity. We could never get Dave or Phil to do anything more then occasional convention appearances. No publicity is no publicity; I even have a copy of a letter from Ehara Tadashi to Phil to this effect.

Same thing with Dave Arneson. He was pretty much off my D&D radar after 1979 or so (more on this later), and he didn't get back on my gaming radar until about 2004 or so. I thought for awhile he just quit and was completely out of gaming all together. I took a sabbatical from any type of gaming myself beginning in 1986, and that break would last until 1991 or so, and then followed that up with another break from 1995 to 1999. These breaks were not caused by gaming, but by other real life distractions that expanded to envelope all the other aspects of my life. Now cold winters indoors in Indiana in the late autumn and winter now give me ample time to work on games in my spare time.

Dave was out of gaming for almost five years, and then was very marginalized. It wasn't until the WotC buyout of his and Gary's rights to the IP that this changed; the two of them were brought back into gaming by the owners at the time of Gen Con and WotC.

...Which brings me to my question. Once I did get back into gaming, I went looking for a copy of EPT. The original TSR boxed set was already sadly out reach, being in the hands of collectors that would bid hundreds, if not thousands of dollars for a single complete original copy of the game. I was talking with Lou Zocchi one day about some of my favorite older games, and I mentioned that I had always been looking for a copy of Empire of the Petal Throne, and he went into the back of his booth, and he fished up a copy of EPT: Swords & Glory Vol I. that had been sitting on the lee side of one of his magazine wracks and said I could have it for $20 (Which I snatched up of course), and after some further discussion ended up buying a perfect set of AWI miniatures rules that he also had in stock, that was a first edition, that had been originally published in 1976. If there's something you really, really want in gaming, even if you don't even think it exists, you can ask Lou about it. If he doesn't have a copy of what you are looking for, he knows someone who does and will hook you up,or will find someone who is interested in creating it for you. He also does real magic tricks.

I like Lou, myself. Gifted story-teller, and a guy who goes around picking up old games and then making them available. If he doesn't have it, it doesnt exist. And he plays the musical saw, too, which is something you don't see every day.

When I asked him about the other EPT rules he simply said they were out of print, and that he had sold out the copies M.A.R. that he had licensed under Gamescience to him to make and sell. Now this book I had (the blue book) was originally published in 1983. Now Dave was still selling EPT at that time. Did he just do another license to Lou for some extra income, or is there another interesting story about all that?

Dave was selling Zocchi books. He sold our stuff, we sold his. No new license involved.

Also, if anyone here happens to have an extra copy of Swords & Glory Vol II: Players Handbook, at a reasonable price, I'd be interested in picking it up, just so that I have the full Gamescience published set. Right now I just use D&D to run EPT, and that works perfectly well, but it would be kind of nice to have the complete EPT.

How many do you want? Now that all of my archives are in digital format - we're working up the index and such - I don't need the surplus paper copies.

The unplanned interview with Dave Arneson (https://plus.google.com/+DirkCollins/posts/f6hE5on5RCe)

This is a fun interview, too! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 06, 2016, 09:40:13 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;928857
Also, part of what went on with AGI is that Dave, bless his memory, thought the tastes of he and his friends were more mainstream than they were.  In my upcoming book (soon, real soon) I have a chapter talking about how TSR as late as 1975 had way more wargame products than RPG products. But in 1976 Dragon split off of Little Wars, and Little Wars died in 77 or 78.

By the time Dave started AGI, all the "wargamers with some RPG interests" like he and his friends already had D&D and had pretty much ignored AD&D.  But the marketplace for that kind of gamer was saturated.  He was, essentially, almost ten years too late, and never realized the saturation of what he wanted to be his market.

Also, the D&D bubble burst around the end of 83 and things were never the same.

All very, very true. Way, way too late, by the end of the middle 1980s.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 06, 2016, 10:40:08 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;928845
You may be right.  And you are CERTAINLY right that one damn desert looks like another.

I beg to differ, Glorious General! To me, there's a large difference between a sand desert and a rocky desert:)!
The difference being, of course, whether you can't sleep well because the damned rocks are never going to be comfortable no matter how much leather you have between your body and them, or because you've got sands everywhere;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;928846
The rest of all y'all folks need to realize that a LOT of this is shit we only found out much, much later.  Lambs to the slaughter we were, in some ways.

"We are two little Hmelu who have lost our ways..."

OK, I was just wandering why you put up with that if you knew that...

And that's probably a popular song on Tekumel, is it not:D?

GameDaddy, The unplanned interview with Dave Arneson (https://plus.google.com/+DirkCollins/posts/f6hE5on5RCe) gives me an Error 404 message;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;928901
I dunno; I'll check my campaign notes and see. It's been a while.

Have we mentioned how much we hated desert trips?

I think you did mention something like it once or maybe twice;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on November 07, 2016, 01:56:43 PM
I assumed the the normal distance between Sakbe Road towers was the distance an Imperial Messenger could run in a day.
Was I close?
If not, what would be closer to your experience?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on November 07, 2016, 03:17:02 PM
How many tubeway cars are still operational, roughly? From the novels, seems like most people that got their hands on one did not share, trying their damnedest to keep control of it and not letting it wander off. Also, if you leave the door open so a car can't be schlucked down the hole and someone has a disk that takes them to your station, does it show as blocked and take you somewhere else? Does it just make you wait? Remotely close the door and get it out of the way? Can you interrupt/slow down someone traveling by blocking a station in this way, making someone take the long way around, as it were?

Anybody ever get a chocolate bar (or some other snack) from a vending machine at a station?

I know the Good Professor (and you guys as well, of course) were heavily influenced by old sci fi but was there any "new" media (meaning after you started playing) that seemed in the vein of what you guys were playing? For instance, my son and I caught some of the old Land of the Lost tv show and I saw some similarities- the lost tech (like the pylons), the old buried cities, the sleestaks similar to Ssu, etc. I know Dr Who was something Professor Barker liked, as well as Rome. Any others?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 07, 2016, 05:58:58 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;929097
I assumed the the normal distance between Sakbe Road towers was the distance an Imperial Messenger could run in a day.
Was I close?
If not, what would be closer to your experience?
=


I think that's pretty much right, especially in areas away from any hostile borders. This is for the big towers, by the way; the smaller 'interval' towers are located at line-of-sight distances for signaling purposes. Think the Great Wall or Hadrian's Wall, where you have the smaller guard post towers within signaling distance and the larger garrison towers at wider intervals. (The big legionary fortresses are at the cities, usually.) For roadways close to or on borders, the larger towers are usually a lot closer together, more like a day's infantry march apart at most and usually closer for mutual protection. So, the towers are not that dense, but you'll be under observation from either a guard post tower or a garrison tower all the time. (Have you seen Luttwak's book on the strategic defense of the Roman Empire, where he coves the limes system in some detail?)

The system was not designed from the ground up - it grew organically over a very long time, so there are a lot of odd quirks to the towers and their spacing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 07, 2016, 06:15:06 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;929124
How many tubeway cars are still operational, roughly? From the novels, seems like most people that got their hands on one did not share, trying their damnedest to keep control of it and not letting it wander off. Also, if you leave the door open so a car can't be schlucked down the hole and someone has a disk that takes them to your station, does it show as blocked and take you somewhere else? Does it just make you wait? Remotely close the door and get it out of the way? Can you interrupt/slow down someone traveling by blocking a station in this way, making someone take the long way around, as it were?

Anybody ever get a chocolate bar (or some other snack) from a vending machine at a station?

I know the Good Professor (and you guys as well, of course) were heavily influenced by old sci fi but was there any "new" media (meaning after you started playing) that seemed in the vein of what you guys were playing? For instance, my son and I caught some of the old Land of the Lost tv show and I saw some similarities- the lost tech (like the pylons), the old buried cities, the sleestaks similar to Ssu, etc. I know Dr Who was something Professor Barker liked, as well as Rome. Any others?

Right; let me take these in order, if I may.

Maybe a 100 to 200, based on the number of tubeway stations, the size of the planet, and the number of times we were able to call a car and get it in a reasonable time.

Yes; once you had a car, you tried really hard to keep it. It was usually your only way home, in a lot of cases.

Yes; the car will not go to a 'blocked' station, and you get a recorded announcement - in Sunuz, we think. You will just sit and wait in your car in your station, unless and until you select another destination. Or the blockage clears, if ever. Same thing for blocked tunnels - hopefully!!!

To the best of our knowledge, only the AI in control of the system can close a car door remotely - and nobody knows how to access that AI, either. So, yes, you will block the station, and anyone wanting to go to it has to wait until you clear the station or they go at a 'nearby' station - good luck with that! :)

No; we had no way to pay for anything - no record of us being in the system. We did try some of the little coins, once, but we didn't have exact change for the machine. Honest to god - that's just the way Phil played it, and you haven't seen role-playing until you saw him playing a sentient vending machine. I'd rather talk philosophy with a Tinalya...

Hmmm. Aside from Dr Who references - more like in-jokes, with Phil - no, not really. He didn't like most of the 1970s SF in the media, and he didn't like most of the fantasy stuff he saw, either. He was very much 'classic' Golden Age, and not much afterwards. And I can understand that - once you've hobnobbed with the likes of E.E. 'Doc' Smith and Jack Vance, Star Trek and Star Wars must have seemed kind of pedestrian for him. Now, Flash Gordon, on the other hand - he loved the movie in all it's campy glory, because he'd grown up with the comic strips and the serials. He would have loved the John Carter movie, for the same reasons.

We, of course , loved Star Trek and Star Wars, and continually got our knuckles rapped for assuming that these were relevant to what Phil was doing. With him, it was the classics all the way.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 07, 2016, 11:37:12 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;928908
I beg to differ, Glorious General! To me, there's a large difference between a sand desert and a rocky desert:)!

Oh, look, Chirine, instead of picking sand out of our arses we're picking pebbles out of our arses.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 08, 2016, 07:37:36 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;929232
Oh, look, Chirine, instead of picking sand out of our arses we're picking pebbles out of our arses.

No doubt a large difference, Glorious General, isn't it;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Xanther on November 08, 2016, 10:24:07 AM
Chirine, can I ask who this is here?


Quote from: chirine ba kal;928903

First time I played EPT was in a campaign around 1980 or so, then after that, it was 1987 before I met another guy that was willing to run the game. I never saw EPT as available, or even on display in any of the hobby shops, toy stores, or game stores that I frequented out in Colorado in the late 70's or early 80's. I heard about the game of course, and it always got great reviews and people who actually had played it spoke about having a good time playing it. After 1981 I didn't see anyone at Ghengis Con (That being the big annual wargaming & RPG convention in Denver) running EPT, and it was simply this mystical thing that was just spoken of, and not seen anywhere in my gaming circles.


I lived in Colorado and took up RPGs in the late '70's as well, and there through the early '80s.  I recall seeing one or two copies of EPT at the "small hobby store" which often had the better selection.  I think it was between EPT, which was pricey, and The Dark Tower, also pricey but The Caverns of Thracia had sold me on the work of Janell.  What I could never find in the day, Chainmail, which was a bit of a pain as the OD&D books kept referencing it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Xanther on November 08, 2016, 10:34:13 AM
Chirine,
  Please ignore my last post, after a little thread research see this is The GameDaddy.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 08, 2016, 12:50:05 PM
Quote from: Xanther;929309
Chirine,
  Please ignore my last post, after a little thread research see this is The GameDaddy.

No problem! I have to take notes to keep track of everyone, myself! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 08, 2016, 12:52:12 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;929279
No doubt a large difference, Glorious General, isn't it;)?

After you've seen one batch of hostile tribesmen, you've pretty much seen them all.

May not be on, later; home sick with a very bad cold, and back to bed in a moment. Right eye won't focus due to sinus pressure... :(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Spinachcat on November 08, 2016, 04:43:09 PM
Feel better chirine ba kal!

When you're better, I like to know your thoughts on why Phil didn't market and publicize Tekumel himself post-TSR?

Also, were there ever any EPT / Tekumel comic books?


Quote from: chirine ba kal;928902
One of the sadder things about being interviewed by one of the recent D&D documentaries has sitting in or watching all of the interviews with the people we knew back then. Some of them were, and still are, real creeps.


Chirine, would you ever identify the who and the what they did?

Gronan, are any of these creeps going to get called out in your book?

Even by pseudonym? AKA, the inner circle would know who you're referencing, but the rest of us would just get a general story?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on November 08, 2016, 05:00:47 PM
Bah, name names, accuse, and allege.  Blow the lid off everything like a classic Hollywood Tell-All. :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 08, 2016, 05:19:46 PM
Or don't, unless you feel like it;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on November 08, 2016, 08:06:22 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;929381
Bah, name names, accuse, and allege.  Blow the lid off everything like a classic Hollywood Tell-All. :D

Sounds like picking at scabs.
Sometimes it is better to just wear the scar.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 08, 2016, 08:18:30 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;929380
Gronan, are any of these creeps going to get called out in your book?

Even by pseudonym? AKA, the inner circle would know who you're referencing, but the rest of us would just get a general story?

I'm not going to talk about that sort of thing at all.  IN fact, the only thing I say about the Dave Arneson vs Gary Gygax shitamaroo is that I'm not going to say anything about it.

"The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones."  Well, I'm not going to contribute to that.  They were both my friends, they were both human (therefore flawed.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 09, 2016, 02:52:45 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;929423
I'm not going to talk about that sort of thing at all.  IN fact, the only thing I say about the Dave Arneson vs Gary Gygax shitamaroo is that I'm not going to say anything about it.

"The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones."  Well, I'm not going to contribute to that.  They were both my friends, they were both human (therefore flawed.)

FWIW, I commend your attitude, Glorious General!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on November 09, 2016, 04:41:56 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;929423
I'm not going to talk about that sort of thing at all.  IN fact, the only thing I say about the Dave Arneson vs Gary Gygax shitamaroo is that I'm not going to say anything about it.

"The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones."  Well, I'm not going to contribute to that.  They were both my friends, they were both human (therefore flawed.)


Sometimes putting an accurate, human face on things, so that both sides get represented fairly as far as their strengths and weaknesses, can be a better testament to them than pretending things didn't happen.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: GameDaddy on November 09, 2016, 09:11:35 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;929491
Sometimes putting an accurate, human face on things, so that both sides get represented fairly as far as their strengths and weaknesses, can be a better testament to them than pretending things didn't happen.

Ok, So, in the last few years, I'm talking about 2004-2008. Gary and Dave had made their peace, and they even talked amicably on more than one occasion. They both went to conventions, a couple times to the same convention, and ran games, and played RPGs, and wargames as well. When I spoke to Dave, and also when I spoke to Gary, and thanked them for making D&D, I got the sense they were eminently gratified that they had created a game so many people enjoyed. They were both genuinely pleased to be at gaming conventions, and at the center of attention for the fans, even after everything that had occurred over the previous years.

Neither of them pretended that bad, as well as unintended things, didn't happen. What both of them, and Bob Bledsaw as well, conveyed to me personally, was that they wished that gamers to continue to enjoy RPGs, especially D&D (...of course). They were both ok with gamers running any edition of the game. I also got the sense, when I spoke to them, that they had both wanted things to turn out much better than things actually did, and like every good wargamer or RPG player, I'm sure they spent countless hours mulling over all the moves they had made, trying to figure out what more they could have done, to make the RPG gaming experience even more awesome for the players. Not only for the profits, but just overall, for the gaming experience. In the end, they chose how exactly they wanted to do just that, and both of them came back to their gaming roots.

That's one of the reasons that Gary kind of adopted Stephen and Davis Chenault, especially over the last few years, inviting them to his house, and helping them so much with Troll Lord Games, and writing books with them, and running LGG Con and such. Gary went back to his roots, and was working on making awesome old school style games with his Yggsburgh Campaign (Published in 2005), Gaxmoor, and Castle Zagyg. These books were written for C&C, but can easily be used with any version of D&D, and OGL as well. This was one of Garys' final projects. His actual testament for you. Look, and Learn.

Dave? Same deal. He was working with Joe Goodman, and had published the d20 version of Blackmoor in 2004, as well as some other supplements, and then followed that up with the 4th edition D&D version of Blackmoor, with Zeitgeist Games in 2008.

Here is one of the last picture of Dave that I know of, Him and Dustin Clingman at the Zeitgiest Games Booth. This is the accurate human face of Dave Arneson. What he wanted in games, and what he wanted for his fans, and Garys'.

http://jovianclouds.com/blackmoor/works.php (http://jovianclouds.com/blackmoor/works.php)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 09, 2016, 12:45:10 PM
Get well, Chirine old boot.

Oh, look, 4,000 Milumanayani tribesmen with poisoned bone spears have just shown up to wish you well.  How touching.  I'll have the Molkars form up the crossbowmen, shall I?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 09, 2016, 01:21:12 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;929380
Feel better chirine ba kal!

When you're better, I like to know your thoughts on why Phil didn't market and publicize Tekumel himself post-TSR?

Also, were there ever any EPT / Tekumel comic books?




Chirine, would you ever identify the who and the what they did?

Gronan, are any of these creeps going to get called out in your book?

Even by pseudonym? AKA, the inner circle would know who you're referencing, but the rest of us would just get a general story?

Thank you; going to be some very short replies - I had a bad medication interaction last night, and it's taken the last twelve hours to get everything flushed out of my system. So, short replies, and then I'm back off to bed.

My best guess is that he'd lived in academia for all of his adult life, and simply didn't have a clear idea of how the marketplace worked. This became apparent when he was dealing with TSR, and was a constant throughout his life. He was interested in what he was interested in, and if other people were not then it wasn't his concern.

No. No interest in them at the time.

I could; they left paper trails a mile wide. However, all it does is get my blood pressure levels dangerously high, as it did during my interviews. If somebody wants to write that book, more power too them. I have other goals and priorities in life.

My daughters, on the other hand, do not. What they do with my papers will be up to them. Personally, I would not have shit on them like some folks have.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 09, 2016, 01:30:36 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;929381
Bah, name names, accuse, and allege.  Blow the lid off everything like a classic Hollywood Tell-All. :D


No, thank you. Living it for the past forty years was enough, thank you.

So, since we're on the subject, how long have you been fucking your adopted daughters? Didn't you take care of Prof. Barker in his last illness simply to steal Tekumel away from it's rightful heirs? What's this I hear you had to flee to Canada to avoid the IRS, for which your wife divorced you after losing the house? Why did you steal the local SF convention's lighting equipment? Why are you a racist bigot who persecutes gay people? Why do you persecute pagans by allowing known Christians to play in your gaming group? Why are you a sexist swine who allows nudity in miniatures?

I've had a lot of this, over the decades. If you want to know, do the work and write your own book. I'm busy with mine.

Sorry about the rant, by the way, not your fault; you didn't know.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 09, 2016, 01:31:42 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;929491
Sometimes putting an accurate, human face on things, so that both sides get represented fairly as far as their strengths and weaknesses, can be a better testament to them than pretending things didn't happen.

Agreed. "Playing At The World", by Jon Peterson.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 09, 2016, 01:36:51 PM
Quote from: GameDaddy;929525
Ok, So, in the last few years, I'm talking about 2004-2008. Gary and Dave had made their peace, and they even talked amicably on more than one occasion. They both went to conventions, a couple times to the same convention, and ran games, and played RPGs, and wargames as well. When I spoke to Dave, and also when I spoke to Gary, and thanked them for making D&D, I got the sense they were eminently gratified that they had created a game so many people enjoyed. They were both genuinely pleased to be at gaming conventions, and at the center of attention for the fans, even after everything that had occurred over the previous years.

Neither of them pretended that bad, as well as unintended things, didn't happen. What both of them, and Bob Bledsaw as well, conveyed to me personally, was that they wished that gamers to continue to enjoy RPGs, especially D&D (...of course). They were both ok with gamers running any edition of the game. I also got the sense, when I spoke to them, that they had both wanted things to turn out much better than things actually did, and like every good wargamer or RPG player, I'm sure they spent countless hours mulling over all the moves they had made, trying to figure out what more they could have done, to make the RPG gaming experience even more awesome for the players. Not only for the profits, but just overall, for the gaming experience. In the end, they chose how exactly they wanted to do just that, and both of them came back to their gaming roots.

That's one of the reasons that Gary kind of adopted Stephen and Davis Chenault, especially over the last few years, inviting them to his house, and helping them so much with Troll Lord Games, and writing books with them, and running LGG Con and such. Gary went back to his roots, and was working on making awesome old school style games with his Yggsburgh Campaign (Published in 2005), Gaxmoor, and Castle Zagyg. These books were written for C&C, but can easily be used with any version of D&D, and OGL as well. This was one of Garys' final projects. His actual testament for you. Look, and Learn.

Dave? Same deal. He was working with Joe Goodman, and had published the d20 version of Blackmoor in 2004, as well as some other supplements, and then followed that up with the 4th edition D&D version of Blackmoor, with Zeitgeist Games in 2008.

Here is one of the last picture of Dave that I know of, Him and Dustin Clingman at the Zeitgiest Games Booth. This is the accurate human face of Dave Arneson. What he wanted in games, and what he wanted for his fans, and Garys'.

http://jovianclouds.com/blackmoor/works.php (http://jovianclouds.com/blackmoor/works.php)

I could not agree with this more! By this date, the two of them had had twenty years to look back at what had gone on, and if you will permit me to use this phrase, repent of their sins.

Luke Gygax said much the same thing to me, too; they're all gone now, so why not let it rest?

Sadly, there is a small know of people here and in Lake Geneva who won't, and I am very, very tired of them.

"To Serve The Petal Throne" won't have much, if any, of 'the good dirt' in it. You'll have to go someplace else for that; what I'm trying to do is remember the great fun we had with Phil, adventuring in his creation.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 09, 2016, 01:38:01 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;929568
Get well, Chirine old boot.

Oh, look, 4,000 Milumanayani tribesmen with poisoned bone spears have just shown up to wish you well.  How touching.  I'll have the Molkars form up the crossbowmen, shall I?

Thank you! I'm back to bed in a moment, after some more fluids.

Save the big chunks, my General; they're good for stew.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 09, 2016, 05:25:06 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;929587
Thank you! I'm back to bed in a moment, after some more fluids.

Save the big chunks, my General; they're good for stew.

Sleep and fluid are your friends.

Okay, gang, for the record we never quite were reduced to cannibalism in Milumanaya, but it got damn close sometimes.  I do seem to remember that Shai'Hulud is actually pretty tasty.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 09, 2016, 07:16:04 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;929583
No, thank you. Living it for the past forty years was enough, thank you


Sounds like a whole bunch of vileness. Maybe it's just me, but reliving decades old "he said she said" just isn't worth the upset. Certainly not interesting or important enough to stir it all up again if it's simply vile.

Changing the topic a little, a while back you mentioned the crown jewels of the Professors archives. My sense was, you were talking about documents we don't already know about but that could be (reasonably and practically)developed for publication. So I'm curious, what, in your opinion, are the crown jewels?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 10, 2016, 06:55:38 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;929670
Sounds like a whole bunch of vileness. Maybe it's just me, but reliving decades old "he said she said" just isn't worth the upset. Certainly not interesting or important enough to stir it all up again if it's simply vile.

Changing the topic a little, a while back you mentioned the crown jewels of the Professors archives. My sense was, you were talking about documents we don't already know about but that could be (reasonably and practically)developed for publication. So I'm curious, what, in your opinion, are the crown jewels?


Agreed. I've known some real shits, over the years, and I don't feel the need to give them any more of my time and energy. What's been done has been done, and they'll have to live with the consequences of their actions.

Well, I think I need to state my bias at the outset; when I first started with Phil, back in early '76, I was right up front with him about wanting to be the informal archivist of his creative process. Nothing more, nothing less; what I wanted to do - and then did for decades - was simply collect, record, and store the data being generated every Thursday night. The 'custom of the house' was that every time Phil did a map or drawing, I'd make a copy and he'd keep the original. Phil was a very disorganized 'housekeeper', and after a while I would up running two sets of records in parallel. For all intents and purposes, I was the 'back-up copy'. That's it; that's all. And that's what I did.

After he passed away, I was able to make a full and complete copy of all of his files, both paper and electronic. I filled in the gaps in his collection from mine, and mine from his; I also got help from Tekumel fans from all over the world, who contributed bits of their own that they'd found over the years. At this point, what I'd consider 'the crown jewels' would be:

- The 1950s 'proto-Tekumel' materials: The maps, documents, house rules, and artwork from Phil's high school and college games. These include his fannish materials, as well as the unfinished (and lost for decades until I found it) first Tekumel novel.

- The 12-13 chapters of "Beside The Dark Pool of Memory". his last and unfinished Tekumel novel.

- His childhood toy soldiers. We did a complete photo inventory of these, as well as making copies of the photos of his childhood games that his dad took.

- The bitmaps of his fonts for his languages. A lot of these were never published.

- His artwork. One could do a coffee-table book of his artwork.

- The audio tapes. Several of the original players in our group did a series of recorded interviews with him in the late 1980s, on all sorts of Tekumel-related subjects. These tapes have never been published, and have been sitting in my files for decades unheard. We also have tapes of game sessions with him.

What did surprise me about going through his files was that there was not a lot of 'new' material - by which I mean, 'new' to me. A lot of it would be new to people, especially now that most of our old publications are no longer available. Could it be published sooner, rather then later? Sure, if somebody put the effort into it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 10, 2016, 10:39:04 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;929736
Agreed. I've known some real shits, over the years, and I don't feel the need to give them any more of my time and energy. What's been done has been done, and they'll have to live with the consequences of their actions.

Well, I think I need to state my bias at the outset; when I first started with Phil, back in early '76, I was right up front with him about wanting to be the informal archivist of his creative process. Nothing more, nothing less; what I wanted to do - and then did for decades - was simply collect, record, and store the data being generated every Thursday night. The 'custom of the house' was that every time Phil did a map or drawing, I'd make a copy and he'd keep the original. Phil was a very disorganized 'housekeeper', and after a while I would up running two sets of records in parallel. For all intents and purposes, I was the 'back-up copy'. That's it; that's all. And that's what I did.

After he passed away, I was able to make a full and complete copy of all of his files, both paper and electronic. I filled in the gaps in his collection from mine, and mine from his; I also got help from Tekumel fans from all over the world, who contributed bits of their own that they'd found over the years. At this point, what I'd consider 'the crown jewels' would be:

- The 1950s 'proto-Tekumel' materials: The maps, documents, house rules, and artwork from Phil's high school and college games. These include his fannish materials, as well as the unfinished (and lost for decades until I found it) first Tekumel novel.

- The 12-13 chapters of "Beside The Dark Pool of Memory". his last and unfinished Tekumel novel.

- His childhood toy soldiers. We did a complete photo inventory of these, as well as making copies of the photos of his childhood games that his dad took.

- The bitmaps of his fonts for his languages. A lot of these were never published.

- His artwork. One could do a coffee-table book of his artwork.

- The audio tapes. Several of the original players in our group did a series of recorded interviews with him in the late 1980s, on all sorts of Tekumel-related subjects. These tapes have never been published, and have been sitting in my files for decades unheard. We also have tapes of game sessions with him.

What did surprise me about going through his files was that there was not a lot of 'new' material - by which I mean, 'new' to me. A lot of it would be new to people, especially now that most of our old publications are no longer available. Could it be published sooner, rather then later? Sure, if somebody put the effort into it.


Uncle,

Please don't break my heart...Such wonders to breathe new life into the fandom!!! Sadly it's my nature, later than sooner!!!

H:0(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 10, 2016, 05:33:06 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;929772
Uncle,

Please don't break my heart...Such wonders to breathe new life into the fandom!!! Sadly it's my nature, later than sooner!!!

H:0(



Well, it's what's there. I keep six separate back-up copies, two in remote locations. The data, as I promised Phil some forty years ago, is as safe as I can reasonably make it. I'm an archivist, pure and simple. What happens to the data is not my purview - I've been The Publisher before, and I want nothing to do with that ever again.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on November 10, 2016, 05:43:09 PM
Only 90 thousand views ... can't be That interesting...
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 10, 2016, 05:53:31 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;929841
Only 90 thousand views ... can't be That interesting...
=

Well, dang. I hadn't seen that. And I think I'm the most surprised one of them all, when I think about people looking in on this little corner of the Internet so see what all the fuss is about.

I mean, what we did back in Ye Olden Dayes was fart around a lot, make stuff up, and run games that we got a lot of laughs over. Some of us, who were obviously nuttier then the others, liked to make little things that got used - and misused! - in those games. Others went on to write sets of rules, like Gronan's wonderful "Planetfall" rules or Larry's "Harpoon"; we were serious about our gaming, but we always found the time to have fun with it.

If there is anything people can take away from this thread to add to their own games, then I think we're doing something right.

So, have at it - ask away, and I'll try to give answers that make some sort of sense... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 10, 2016, 05:58:25 PM
Uncle Chirine, after great consideration of all topics mentioned in this thread, I decided to just wish you for longer sleeptimes, and better tasting fluids, and leave it at that:)!

Unfounded allegations against you, material that could stoke fans but isn't getting published, considering to eat Tekumeli tribesmen;)? "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof", so take care of the present day first!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 10, 2016, 06:04:48 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;929844
Uncle Chirine, after great consideration of all topics mentioned in this thread, I decided to just wish you for longer sleeptimes, and better tasting fluids, and leave it at that:)!

Unfounded allegations against you, material that could stoke fans but isn't getting published, considering to eat Tekumeli tribesmen;)? "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof", so take care of the present day first!

Thank you for the kind words! I was up every two hours for the past 18 getting my system flushed out - bad interaction between some of my medications - and it felt like several centuries was passing. Embalming fluid started to look really good about two this morning.

And we didn't consider eating just any old tribesmen, either. The Glorious General and I have high standards in cuisine, I'll have you know! Only the very best selected tribesmen - read, the ones within reach - are fit for our sophisticated palates. And served with a fine Salarvyani black wine, too; no chablis, here! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 10, 2016, 06:10:24 PM
While we're on the subject of dinner - chicken with mashed potatoes for me tonight, yum yum! - somebody ask Gronan about his game of Maker and Wesely's "Source of the Nile" where he was about to run out of provisions, and I saved the day with a timely suggestion... :)

(We may have told that story up thread already; I don't recall if we did or not...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 10, 2016, 09:19:59 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;929843
Others went on to write sets of rules, like Gronan's wonderful "Planetfall" rules or Larry's "Harpoon"; we were serious about our gaming, but we always found the time to have fun with it.

My favorite part of PLANETFALL is the Burthoi.  For those of you who haven't seen the game (pretty much everybody but Chirine) they were a race that never invented digital computers, and they did their hyperdrive calculations on Babbage engines the size of large semi trailers, with rollers the size of human hairs spinning in air bearings and mounted in elaborate mahogany and bronze frames.

I invented Steampunk in 1979.

(I wish, when writing the rules, I'd spent less effort fetishising technology and more time thinking about how the game was actually supposed to play.  But I was young.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 10, 2016, 10:02:59 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;929880
My favorite part of PLANETFALL is the Burthoi.  For those of you who haven't seen the game (pretty much everybody but Chirine) they were a race that never invented digital computers, and they did their hyperdrive calculations on Babbage engines the size of large semi trailers, with rollers the size of human hairs spinning in air bearings and mounted in elaborate mahogany and bronze frames.

I invented Steampunk in 1979.

(I wish, when writing the rules, I'd spent less effort fetishising technology and more time thinking about how the game was actually supposed to play.  But I was young.)


Glorious General,

Anyway a youngster could get a peek at Planetfall? I went to the all mighty google and it came up with nothing. Planetfall sounds like the Lords  of Humanspace in effect...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on November 10, 2016, 10:23:51 PM
I remember a science fiction story in Analog a couple years ago (yes I still read Analog) where humanity receives signals from an alien race.  Once we decipher their instructions and primer the human scientists are pretty depressed as the aliens are clearly more advanced than we are and are looking for answers to questions we didn't even know to ask.  As the deadline to respond looms on scientist smiles and says he doesn't think it's a problem.  He explains that he is an antique radio enthusiast and points at a series of symbols in the plans for a signal array needed to respond and they haven't been able to make sense of and says, "It's analog, those are vacuum tubes."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 11, 2016, 12:48:39 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;929893
Glorious General,

Anyway a youngster could get a peek at Planetfall? I went to the all mighty google and it came up with nothing. Planetfall sounds like the Lords  of Humanspace in effect...

H:0)

There is, to the best of my knowledge, only one intact complete copy (unless I gave a copy to Chirine and forgot), and that copy is somewhere in storage.  It was never published and greatly predates computers (the whole fucking thing was typed) so of course Google had no clue.

Sorry.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 11, 2016, 09:54:18 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;929908
There is, to the best of my knowledge, only one intact complete copy (unless I gave a copy to Chirine and forgot), and that copy is somewhere in storage.  It was never published and greatly predates computers (the whole fucking thing was typed) so of course Google had no clue.

Sorry.


No need to be sorry General. I would have liked to see your creative mind at work("Steampunk 1979" sounds real cool)!!! Thanks

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 11, 2016, 01:11:10 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;929845
Thank you for the kind words! I was up every two hours for the past 18 getting my system flushed out - bad interaction between some of my medications - and it felt like several centuries was passing. Embalming fluid started to look really good about two this morning.

And we didn't consider eating just any old tribesmen, either. The Glorious General and I have high standards in cuisine, I'll have you know! Only the very best selected tribesmen - read, the ones within reach - are fit for our sophisticated palates. And served with a fine Salarvyani black wine, too; no chablis, here! :)
Undoubtedly, your high standards are an inspiration for many a young Molkar out there:)! After I read that to the troups, numerous were the men who swore they also wouldn't even consider eating the tribesmen that's outside reach!

And all of those that said they consider the others as an option were crossbowmen, I should add, one needs to wonder what's the matter with them;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 11, 2016, 05:58:00 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;929908
There is, to the best of my knowledge, only one intact complete copy (unless I gave a copy to Chirine and forgot), and that copy is somewhere in storage.  It was never published and greatly predates computers (the whole fucking thing was typed) so of course Google had no clue.

Sorry.

I don't have a copy; we only had the one you typed. I just provided the big three-post binder you kept it in while we played - hey, it was top-of-the-line technology at that time!

It was a fun set of rules; we'd been playing a lot of "Starguard' but kind of wanted a more campaign-oriented set of rules. It was originally inspired by Gordy's 'Dorsai' series of books and stories, but ACE nixed that so it became a more general set of SF rules.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 11, 2016, 05:58:45 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;930019
Undoubtedly, your high standards are an inspiration for many a young Molkar out there:)! After I read that to the troups, numerous were the men who swore they also wouldn't even consider eating the tribesmen that's outside reach!

And all of those that said they consider the others as an option were crossbowmen, I should add, one needs to wonder what's the matter with them;)!

The crossbowmen like to take them on the wing; it's more sporting that way. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 11, 2016, 07:01:58 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;930086
The crossbowmen like to take them on the wing; it's more sporting that way. :)

What's the Tsolyani word for "PULL!" ?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 11, 2016, 07:08:21 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;930086
The crossbowmen like to take them on the wing; it's more sporting that way. :)
That surely explains it! We bow to the wisdom of the veterans:)!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;930095
What's the Tsolyani word for "PULL!" ?
Isn't it "Areyoureadytogetthosebastards", with semi-random hyphenation;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 12, 2016, 08:28:41 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;929895
I remember a science fiction story in Analog a couple years ago (yes I still read Analog) where humanity receives signals from an alien race.  Once we decipher their instructions and primer the human scientists are pretty depressed as the aliens are clearly more advanced than we are and are looking for answers to questions we didn't even know to ask.  As the deadline to respond looms on scientist smiles and says he doesn't think it's a problem.  He explains that he is an antique radio enthusiast and points at a series of symbols in the plans for a signal array needed to respond and they haven't been able to make sense of and says, "It's analog, those are vacuum tubes."

For many years, the US was worried because the Soviets were twenty years ahead of us in vacuum tube technology. Eek!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 12, 2016, 08:29:28 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;930095
What's the Tsolyani word for "PULL!" ?

Heck, I dunno. I'll have to look.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 12, 2016, 08:31:58 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;930096
That surely explains it! We bow to the wisdom of the veterans:)!


Isn't it "Areyoureadytogetthosebastards", with semi-random hyphenation;)?

We try to share these bits of wisdom. :)

Me, I'd just yell 'SHOOT!', on the theory that when in Milumaniya it's better to do unto others before they can do unto you. As long as they stay out of range, I'm just as happy...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 12, 2016, 11:56:38 AM
Greetings All,

A new Tekumel podcast...The Hall of Blue Illumination.

http://tekumelpodcast.com

I am going to listen to it now.

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 12, 2016, 01:36:07 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;930184
For many years, the US was worried because the Soviets were twenty years ahead of us in vacuum tube technology. Eek!!! :)

I remember that... Soviet avionics were frustrating some US countermeasure systems because the Soviet vacuum-tube based systems simply put out so much raw power they overwhelmed the US systems.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 12, 2016, 05:04:36 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;930207
Greetings All,

A new Tekumel podcast...The Hall of Blue Illumination.

http://tekumelpodcast.com

I am going to listen to it now.

H;0)

Yep; the Chairman speaks. There's some useful information in there. too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 12, 2016, 05:10:03 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;930228
I remember that... Soviet avionics were frustrating some US countermeasure systems because the Soviet vacuum-tube based systems simply put out so much raw power they overwhelmed the US systems.

Oh, yes! I think what kept astonishing analysts was that Soviet gear was all right, but not over-engineered - and not finished to a high standard where it didn't need to be. Which should have surprised nobody, as the same observation was made about a captured T-34/76 at the beginning of 'Barbarossa'.

Which may be, now that I contemplate it, a lesson for game designers. Like we used to say in theater, "Perfection is the enemy of good enough." I'd rather have a set of rules that is good enough to play, rather then the perfect set of rules that can't be played in practice.
Title: A question from out of the aether...
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 12, 2016, 05:18:14 PM
So, here's a question for all of you. I tend to blather on and on and on about using miniatures in RPG game play, as well as talking about the model-making process. It's something that I like to do as a hobby, but I do wonder if there's a lot of relevance to modern game play. Should I 'compartmentalize' the model-making stuff over on my blog, and try to focus on RPG and generalist game stuff here?

Inquiring minds want to know... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 12, 2016, 07:11:45 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;930281
Yep; the Chairman speaks. There's some useful information in there. too.


Yes. Some good advice on the "straight off the boat" scenario and patrons...Also some info on upcoming releases.
I can't wait till the unpublished "stuff" sees print(not that it is mentioned)!!!

Take care,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on November 12, 2016, 08:00:36 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;930095
What's the Tsolyani word for "PULL!" ?



Why PÚLL! of course. It's all in the accent.:D

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on November 12, 2016, 08:01:45 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;930207
Greetings All,

A new Tekumel podcast...The Hall of Blue Illumination.

http://tekumelpodcast.com

I am going to listen to it now.

H;0)

Mighty Hrugga of the Epics, a nice find. I'll have to have a listen to that.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 12, 2016, 08:12:10 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;930282
Which may be, now that I contemplate it, a lesson for game designers. Like we used to say in theater, "Perfection is the enemy of good enough." I'd rather have a set of rules that is good enough to play, rather then the perfect set of rules that can't be played in practice.

Great merciful Crom, yes.  Does dropping a rock on a man trying to climb a siege ladder really have a 1/3 chance of killing the climber, per CHAINMAIL?

Who the hell knows?  But the game plays well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 12, 2016, 08:12:46 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;930283
So, here's a question for all of you. I tend to blather on and on and on about using miniatures in RPG game play, as well as talking about the model-making process. It's something that I like to do as a hobby, but I do wonder if there's a lot of relevance to modern game play. Should I 'compartmentalize' the model-making stuff over on my blog, and try to focus on RPG and generalist game stuff here?

Inquiring minds want to know... :)

Personally I enjoy the digressions, but that's just me.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 12, 2016, 08:24:51 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;930186
We try to share these bits of wisdom. :)

Me, I'd just yell 'SHOOT!', on the theory that when in Milumaniya it's better to do unto others before they can do unto you. As long as they stay out of range, I'm just as happy...

But isn't it true that an enemy that stays out of range is probably waiting reinforcements:)?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;930228
I remember that... Soviet avionics were frustrating some US countermeasure systems because the Soviet vacuum-tube based systems simply put out so much raw power they overwhelmed the US systems.


Quote from: chirine ba kal;930282
Oh, yes! I think what kept astonishing analysts was that Soviet gear was all right, but not over-engineered - and not finished to a high standard where it didn't need to be. Which should have surprised nobody, as the same observation was made about a captured T-34/76 at the beginning of 'Barbarossa'.

Which may be, now that I contemplate it, a lesson for game designers. Like we used to say in theater, "Perfection is the enemy of good enough." I'd rather have a set of rules that is good enough to play, rather then the perfect set of rules that can't be played in practice.

I don't remember that, but both of these are typical for Russian technology I've used:D.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;930283
So, here's a question for all of you. I tend to blather on and on and on about using miniatures in RPG game play, as well as talking about the model-making process. It's something that I like to do as a hobby, but I do wonder if there's a lot of relevance to modern game play. Should I 'compartmentalize' the model-making stuff over on my blog, and try to focus on RPG and generalist game stuff here?

Inquiring minds want to know... :)

I've said it and shall say the same again, Uncle. People do use miniatures when playing RPGs, and many players are also playing wargames, so I think it's relevant.
I just don't find it relevant to my interests, which are at least in part determined by my current lack of storage space;). But the thread isn't about my interests, and shouldn't be.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on November 12, 2016, 08:29:42 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;930282
Oh, yes! I think what kept astonishing analysts was that Soviet gear was all right, but not over-engineered - and not finished to a high standard where it didn't need to be. Which should have surprised nobody, as the same observation was made about a captured T-34/76 at the beginning of 'Barbarossa'.





Typical Soviet design philosophy. Much like the AK47: drop it in muddy water, merely pour out the slurry and keep firing. Whereas with the M16 (or the StG 44 upon which the AK47 was based upon): drop it in muddy water, merely pour out the slurry and give it to the Weapons Tech for repair and refit. :)
Having extensively fired both, and participated in the above experiment with an old Russian made AK47 and a C7A1, I personally would sooner have the AK were I to be deployed into the field for an extended  period, and with minimal support.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 12, 2016, 08:35:12 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;930297
Mighty Hrugga of the Epics, a nice find. I'll have to have a listen to that.

Shemek

Ahh, Lord Shemek, it is good to hear from you. I trust all is well with you and Pechano. I shall soon return from my travels in three months time. At which time, I will face my own personal Qu’u on the field of battle. I pray that the Twenty shall grace me with their blessings...!!! So for better or worse, I will be back with a plague of questions for Lord Chirine!!! Speak to you soon. Be well!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on November 12, 2016, 08:36:54 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;930283
So, here's a question for all of you. I tend to blather on and on and on about using miniatures in RPG game play, as well as talking about the model-making process. It's something that I like to do as a hobby, but I do wonder if there's a lot of relevance to modern game play. Should I 'compartmentalize' the model-making stuff over on my blog, and try to focus on RPG and generalist game stuff here?

Inquiring minds want to know... :)


Chirine,

 I for one see no problem with model making and miniature usage, but that's just me. I don't think that it's necessary to do what you suggest.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on November 12, 2016, 08:47:17 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;930311
Ahh, Lord Shemek, it is good to hear from you. I trust all is well with you and Pechano. I shall soon return from my travels in three months time. At which time, I will face my own personal Qu’u on the field of battle. I pray that the Twenty shall grace me with their blessings...!!! So for better or worse, I will be back with a plague of questions for Lord Chirine!!! Speak to you soon. Be well!!!

H;0)

You too Mighty Hrugga. I also hope that you are well! I can't wait for the questions to start pouring in. All is fine and I am busy as hell. Work is unjustly monopolizing all of my time and will probably continue to do so until Christmas. The beginning of the new year usually slows down to a snail's pace and gives me time to enjoy Tekumel.
Pechano is doing as well as can be expected, but I think the Ssu are trying to take advantage of my absence and have attacked some of my more northerly holdings. I'll need to have a word to the Chaegosh about mounting an expedition into Ssuyal. Didn't Lord Chirine mention that he sent a certain Tsolyani with a chlen-hide dagger to Pechano a while back? I'll have to step up my efforts to find this guy and have him "lead" the raid.:D

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 12, 2016, 08:49:10 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;930301
Great merciful Crom, yes.  Does dropping a rock on a man trying to climb a siege ladder really have a 1/3 chance of killing the climber, per CHAINMAIL?

Who the hell knows?  But the game plays well.

This. I keep it simple, fast, and furious; it seems to work fine.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 12, 2016, 08:51:24 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;930302
Personally I enjoy the digressions, but that's just me.

Understood. I'm still trying to chart the rocks and shoals in modern gaming, ahead of my very first 'real' D&D game in two weeks. I think I'm a little gun-shy from some of the responses I've had from people who didn't take well to D&D 4.0. (A game system which still baffles me, no matter how many times I've read it...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 12, 2016, 08:53:15 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;930306
I've said it and shall say the same again, Uncle. People do use miniatures when playing RPGs, and many players are also playing wargames, so I think it's relevant.
I just don't find it relevant to my interests, which are at least in part determined by my current lack of storage space;). But the thread isn't about my interests, and shouldn't be.

Understood! Your play style is what works for you and your players, and I am very happy to get to look in at that. My concern is being a boring old fart... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 12, 2016, 09:09:47 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;930309
Typical Soviet design philosophy. Much like the AK47: drop it in muddy water, merely pour out the slurry and keep firing. Whereas with the M16 (or the StG 44 upon which the AK47 was based upon): drop it in muddy water, merely pour out the slurry and give it to the Weapons Tech for repair and refit. :)
Having extensively fired both, and participated in the above experiment with an old Russian made AK47 and a C7A1, I personally would sooner have the AK were I to be deployed into the field for an extended  period, and with minimal support.

Shemek


Same here. I was issued with an M16A1 in Basic, and we were told many lurid and scary stories of how badly the things worked in typical field conditions by the cadre NCOs, who were all combat veterans. Luckily for me, the ancient M3 'grease gun' was still being issued as the stock close-in weapon in armor, and they are just impossible to mess up. As a demo, one of the cadre immersed one in a pool of liquid mud, and fired off an entire magazine down-range while under the surface with no stoppages. Guess what we all wanted to carry, after that? :)

Hence Chirine's preference for a nice solid mace, most of the time. No moving parts, easy to clean, and quite effective. Yeah, the big two-hander was nice for the big open-field fights, but give me a mace or a short sword for getting up close and personal in tight spaces.

For the record, if anyone wants the information, the usual load-out hung on the armor was:

Two-handed sword, over the shoulder on a baldric; short sword (a khepesh, actually) on the left hip; long triangular dagger on the right hip; two shorter daggers, on the belt in the small of the back on either side of the belt pouch; two even smaller throwing-knives / daggers in a concealed sheath on the inner face of the belt pouch; +4+5 mace in the right hand, buckler in the left, to be switched off as needed.

One learned to be prepared, with Phil, and to always have a little something in reserve. We'd have carried a pouch full of grenades, if they'd been invented. Phil, on one of his better nights, was awesomely lethal. Heck, I would have carried a bazooka, if we'd found one...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 12, 2016, 09:11:18 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;930315
You too Mighty Hrugga. I also hope that you are well! I can't wait for the questions to start pouring in. All is fine and I am busy as hell. Work is unjustly monopolizing all of my time and will probably continue to do so until Christmas. The beginning of the new year usually slows down to a snail's pace and gives me time to enjoy Tekumel.
Pechano is doing as well as can be expected, but I think the Ssu are trying to take advantage of my absence and have attacked some of my more northerly holdings. I'll need to have a word to the Chaegosh about mounting an expedition into Ssuyal. Didn't Lord Chirine mention that he sent a certain Tsolyani with a chlen-hide dagger to Pechano a while back? I'll have to step up my efforts to find this guy and have him "lead" the raid.:D

Shemek


Thank you friend. I will hold you to your invitation of that hunting expidition in due time...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on November 12, 2016, 09:39:33 PM
Personally, Tekumel holds little interest for me but the historical perspective on the gaming industry and the miniatures discussion keep me interested in this thread.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 12, 2016, 09:50:34 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;930339
Personally, Tekumel holds little interest for me but the historical perspective on the gaming industry and the miniatures discussion keep me interested in this thread.

Oh, sure, understood! Tekumel isn't something that appeals to everybody - and never will be! - but I'm delighted that I can come up with things that delight and inform... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on November 12, 2016, 10:32:42 PM
I remember my cousin had Dave Arneson's The First Campaign and a copy of Swords and Glory (volume II I think).  I don't know how he came across them living in Medicine Hat.  My best guess is the Sentry Box in Calgary but I'm not sure how often his family got out that way after we moved to Raymond.  Anyhow, I was aware of Tekumel by 1984 as a result.  At the time my Dad was unemployed and I was mostly designing my own adventures and rules for D&D or Traveller, but I read whatever I could when I had a chance.  Sometimes I think Tekumel really needs to exist as a series of beautiful full color coffee table books.  Sure, that's what most published rpgs amount to these days but I just mean in the sense of an immersive visual journey tied together with beautiful prose.  On the other hand there is something to the apocryphal mimeographed stacks of small type and crude hand drawn illustrations.  Oh I know it's been produced with better production values and different systems and such but somehow, I tend to want rules separate from setting.  I never understand the urge to publish stat blocks for everything, I guess. GURPS was way better before they started doing that.

Maybe Tekumel hasn't found the format that would bring me in or something.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 12, 2016, 11:44:18 PM
You know, a series of coffee table books with gorgeous artwork and some explanatory notes isn't the worst presentation I could think of for Tekumel.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on November 13, 2016, 12:05:03 AM
Thanks,

The thing is that it's this big, vibrant world and most people can't be dragged into reading even one page of exposition let alone ten.  I find rpgs work best with broad and obvious settings.  But National Geographic style pictures and maps and factoids can suck people in where no amount of text would.  I'm not sure who could do the art Frank Frazetta of course but maybe that Tony Dizliteri or Charles Vess.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 13, 2016, 10:06:34 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;930349
I remember my cousin had Dave Arneson's The First Campaign and a copy of Swords and Glory (volume II I think).  I don't know how he came across them living in Medicine Hat.  My best guess is the Sentry Box in Calgary but I'm not sure how often his family got out that way after we moved to Raymond.  Anyhow, I was aware of Tekumel by 1984 as a result.  At the time my Dad was unemployed and I was mostly designing my own adventures and rules for D&D or Traveller, but I read whatever I could when I had a chance.  Sometimes I think Tekumel really needs to exist as a series of beautiful full color coffee table books.  Sure, that's what most published rpgs amount to these days but I just mean in the sense of an immersive visual journey tied together with beautiful prose.  On the other hand there is something to the apocryphal mimeographed stacks of small type and crude hand drawn illustrations.  Oh I know it's been produced with better production values and different systems and such but somehow, I tend to want rules separate from setting.  I never understand the urge to publish stat blocks for everything, I guess. GURPS was way better before they started doing that.

Maybe Tekumel hasn't found the format that would bring me in or something.


I agree with you, here, and this is something I talked to Phil about from the beginning. I pointed out that games / rules come and go, depending on fashion, and that he might find it more viable to concentrate on the world-setting aspects that made Tekumel unique. I honestly don't know if he ever absorbed that; and in the circumstances of the time, where everybody and their dog Rover was convinced that they could write a better set of RPG rules then those two losers Gyagx and Arneson (The contempt felt for those two was very real and very pervasive) really told against that concept.

I've run into the obsession with stat blocks myself, and watched countless games sessions at conventions and the FLGS where it was all about the mechanics and the world-setting cane in a very distant second. I was told, by a would-be Tekumel publisher, that the very first thing I would need to do for him was to come up with a bunch of new character classes and monsters (with new stats to match) in order to make Tekumel 'work' as a game. If I didn't come up with a way for players to do 'builds' - and for him to sell more stuff to them - then there wasn't any future for Tekumel.

The obsession with rules does boggle my mind - see also the moment when a guy in the FLGs told his buddy that they can't use Sherman tanks for WWII games "because we don't play that set of rules"... :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 13, 2016, 10:09:28 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;930376
You know, a series of coffee table books with gorgeous artwork and some explanatory notes isn't the worst presentation I could think of for Tekumel.

Agreed. The history of Tekumel publishing is littered with the corpses of more and more recondite rules sets that don't play to Tekumel's strengths and instead wallow in stats and number-crunching. Roll-playing, instead of the role-playing that Phil did in his actual games.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 13, 2016, 10:10:17 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;930385
Thanks,

The thing is that it's this big, vibrant world and most people can't be dragged into reading even one page of exposition let alone ten.  I find rpgs work best with broad and obvious settings.  But National Geographic style pictures and maps and factoids can suck people in where no amount of text would.  I'm not sure who could do the art Frank Frazetta of course but maybe that Tony Dizliteri or Charles Vess.

Well, I think you've hit it on the head. Play to the strengths, not the weaknesses.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 13, 2016, 10:33:08 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;930376
You know, a series of coffee table books with gorgeous artwork and some explanatory notes isn't the worst presentation I could think of for Tekumel.


They did it with Glorantha. Which I own. Beautiful books. Gorgeous artwork. Truth be told, I have never played a game in that setting. I did however own the AH Runequest boxed set(that may be one of my reasons for buying it). I would love to see Tekumel get that kind of treatment!!! I would buy it in a heartbeat!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on November 13, 2016, 11:16:53 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;930438
I honestly don't know if he ever absorbed that; and in the circumstances of the time, where everybody and their dog Rover was convinced that they could write a better set of RPG rules then those two losers Gyagx and Arneson (The contempt felt for those two was very real and very pervasive) really told against that concept.

snip

The obsession with rules does boggle my mind - see also the moment when a guy in the FLGs told his buddy that they can't use Sherman tanks for WWII games "because we don't play that set of rules"... :eek:


I think the thing is that most people didn't play the game Gygax and Arneson wrote.  They used bits and pieces and tended to run more character-focused-narrative games.  In my experience the use of reaction rolls, henchmen and hirelings, and even domain building are pretty rare in actual practice.

There's also bad and inexperienced DMs and players who lack the emotional maturity to play a game that isn't focussed on their uber hero crushing everything in its path.  And therein, I believe lies the source of the problem.  Gygax and Arneson were experienced wargamers and dare I say it fully functional, mature, adults.  Most people's experience with D&D is the result of playing with a fourteen year old DM who hasn't read the rules, hasn't read the module, and thinks he gets to win by killing the party.

No, the rules can't cure asshole but they can't create grown-ups either.  I think Palladium's success with the younger crowd is a clear point of data here.  Characters that start with an average of 50hp (30 SDC + 10 PE + 4 + Physical Skill bonuses), don't die as easily.  The Strike, Parry, Dodge system is flat out brilliant, easy to learn, easy to play, and constrained to a functional modifier range.  Palladium "broadened the sweet spot" and "bounded accuracy" in the early nineteen eighties.  I still think Palladium's system was a major model for the changes in fourth edition D&D.  I'm equally sure the designers wouldn't admit it on the rack while having molten lead poured on them.

On the other side of things:

As I've said before, the rigidity of people's brand name miniatures for the game mindset baffles me.  I can get it from a store's perspective, companies like Games Workshop give a bigger discount for higher volume.  I carry Battlefront's Flames of War but when I started out I had one little distributor who's since gone under and he carried The Plastic Soldier Company who make nice little kits and carry some really nice Russian kits at half to a third of the price of Battlefront.  At the time Battlefront had a stug and a Sherman in plastic and the Sherman required extensive trimming and three spring clamps to assemble.  Everything else was in resin and metal.  Now Battle Front has a very nice plastic range, though their troops are closer to 1/87 than 1/100.  The PSC half tracks have passenger figures that fit on the benches when the whole thing's assembled.  But I don't bring in PSC anymore.  The reason is simply that it undermines my sales of more expensive Battlefront products.  Recently there've been rumours that the other stores are thinking about carrying Flames of War.  If they do I may think about carrying PSC and letting Battlefront go.  It'll depend on if they're ordering from Battlefront and doing a good job of stocking it or just ordering odds and ends through Diamond.  In the latter case I'm all for it, I'll clean up when their customers start coming in looking for all the stuff Diamond can't get them because Diamond only carries core product and new releases and seldom stocks anything with any depth.

But yeah, there's plenty of reasons a retailer wouldn't let people use off brand figures.  Though there's still the problem of on-line discounters and ebay purchases.  I know they drive the local GW retailer nuts.  But as you guys have learned, people will take everything they can get for free, badmouth you behind your back, and run to the new guy down the block when he offers a 1% discount.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 13, 2016, 12:40:59 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;930319
Understood. I'm still trying to chart the rocks and shoals in modern gaming, ahead of my very first 'real' D&D game in two weeks. I think I'm a little gun-shy from some of the responses I've had from people who didn't take well to D&D 4.0. (A game system which still baffles me, no matter how many times I've read it...)

You mean you haven't played OD&D despite knowing Dave, Gary and Phil? I find that hard to believe:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;930320
Understood! Your play style is what works for you and your players, and I am very happy to get to look in at that. My concern is being a boring old fart... :)

See again the number of views, Uncle;)!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;930328
Same here. I was issued with an M16A1 in Basic, and we were told many lurid and scary stories of how badly the things worked in typical field conditions by the cadre NCOs, who were all combat veterans. Luckily for me, the ancient M3 'grease gun' was still being issued as the stock close-in weapon in armor, and they are just impossible to mess up. As a demo, one of the cadre immersed one in a pool of liquid mud, and fired off an entire magazine down-range while under the surface with no stoppages. Guess what we all wanted to carry, after that? :)

Hence Chirine's preference for a nice solid mace, most of the time. No moving parts, easy to clean, and quite effective. Yeah, the big two-hander was nice for the big open-field fights, but give me a mace or a short sword for getting up close and personal in tight spaces.

For the record, if anyone wants the information, the usual load-out hung on the armor was:

Two-handed sword, over the shoulder on a baldric; short sword (a khepesh, actually) on the left hip; long triangular dagger on the right hip; two shorter daggers, on the belt in the small of the back on either side of the belt pouch; two even smaller throwing-knives / daggers in a concealed sheath on the inner face of the belt pouch; +4+5 mace in the right hand, buckler in the left, to be switched off as needed.

One learned to be prepared, with Phil, and to always have a little something in reserve. We'd have carried a pouch full of grenades, if they'd been invented. Phil, on one of his better nights, was awesomely lethal. Heck, I would have carried a bazooka, if we'd found one...

He's well-prepared indeed:D!
I prefer axes or warhammers, but his choice of swords is almost like what I would use.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;930376
You know, a series of coffee table books with gorgeous artwork and some explanatory notes isn't the worst presentation I could think of for Tekumel.

I'd like to see that, too.

Quote from: David Johansen;930385
Thanks,

The thing is that it's this big, vibrant world and most people can't be dragged into reading even one page of exposition let alone ten.  I find rpgs work best with broad and obvious settings.  But National Geographic style pictures and maps and factoids can suck people in where no amount of text would.  I'm not sure who could do the art Frank Frazetta of course but maybe that Tony Dizliteri or Charles Vess.

Jeff Dee:p?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;930438
I agree with you, here, and this is something I talked to Phil about from the beginning. I pointed out that games / rules come and go, depending on fashion, and that he might find it more viable to concentrate on the world-setting aspects that made Tekumel unique./QUOTE]
Yeah, there are systemless settings out there. Tekumel deserves the same treatment, really.

Quote from: David Johansen;930452
I think the thing is that most people didn't play the game Gygax and Arneson wrote.  They used bits and pieces and tended to run more character-focused-narrative games.  In my experience the use of reaction rolls, henchmen and hirelings, and even domain building are pretty rare in actual practice.

There's also bad and inexperienced DMs and players who lack the emotional maturity to play a game that isn't focussed on their uber hero crushing everything in its path.  And therein, I believe lies the source of the problem.  Gygax and Arneson were experienced wargamers and dare I say it fully functional, mature, adults.  Most people's experience with D&D is the result of playing with a fourteen year old DM who hasn't read the rules, hasn't read the module, and thinks he gets to win by killing the party.

I haven't been there to see it, but from people sharing their experiences on forums, I suspected something like that as well:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on November 13, 2016, 01:29:45 PM
Having started at 9 and having read the rules, I was there for it in many times and places.

Heck, I was the bad DM many times myself.

Some would tell you I still am a bad DM.

As for Jeff Dee, no offense to the guy but he isn't the artist he was 30 years ago (being busy with adult stuff will do that) and he never really was a color guy.  Still, I expect if we could pay him to just draw and paint for a year, I think he'd do  well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 13, 2016, 02:40:25 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;930486
Having started at 9 and having read the rules, I was there for it in many times and places.

Heck, I was the bad DM many times myself.

Some would tell you I still am a bad DM.
Hey, I started at 18, and I still wasn't a good Referee when I started:). It's a trade you learn.
Admittedly, I've seen some people that didn't need to be taught. They're the exception;).

Quote
As for Jeff Dee, no offense to the guy but he isn't the artist he was 30 years ago (being busy with adult stuff will do that) and he never really was a color guy.  Still, I expect if we could pay him to just draw and paint for a year, I think he'd do  well.
Well, I'm asking because he's got a Tekumel license.
Maybe you could suggest it to him;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on November 13, 2016, 04:32:33 PM
I'm afraid I don't know him and haven't really bought anything from him since TWERPS.  I wanted to back the new Villains and Vigilantes but couldn't really justify the expense at the time.  I'll probably buy it when it comes out.  I might pick up Bethorm too.  I wish there was better distribution for retailers on stuff.  I can't risk money on kickstarters that won't fulfill and I certainly can't drop more than a couple hundred dollars on any kickstarter.  SJG was really smart when they made the retailer level 3 copies and a GM screen at $75.  Too many kickstarters put it in the $500 to $1000 range and frankly most retailers can't afford to tie up money for six months to a year on a small chance the delivered product will sell.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 13, 2016, 05:25:56 PM
Well, maybe not you. But maybe someone, no matter who, could suggest it to him:)?

The number one best scenario would be to use MARB's drawings themselves, but I don't know whether this is likely to happen;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 13, 2016, 05:44:36 PM
I agree with the point David J made about the game getting into the mitts of 14 year olds.

Alas, what is good for sales isn't always the best thing for a certain vision of the game.  TSR made a conscious decision to sell to kids (source: Jim Ward) because teenage kids have a huge share of disposable income.

That decision is directly responsible for both the huge boom in sales and, in my opinion, most of the complaints about the game.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 13, 2016, 09:17:11 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;930452
I think the thing is that most people didn't play the game Gygax and Arneson wrote.  They used bits and pieces and tended to run more character-focused-narrative games.  In my experience the use of reaction rolls, henchmen and hirelings, and even domain building are pretty rare in actual practice.

There's also bad and inexperienced DMs and players who lack the emotional maturity to play a game that isn't focussed on their uber hero crushing everything in its path.  And therein, I believe lies the source of the problem.  Gygax and Arneson were experienced wargamers and dare I say it fully functional, mature, adults.  Most people's experience with D&D is the result of playing with a fourteen year old DM who hasn't read the rules, hasn't read the module, and thinks he gets to win by killing the party.

No, the rules can't cure asshole but they can't create grown-ups either.  I think Palladium's success with the younger crowd is a clear point of data here.  Characters that start with an average of 50hp (30 SDC + 10 PE + 4 + Physical Skill bonuses), don't die as easily.  The Strike, Parry, Dodge system is flat out brilliant, easy to learn, easy to play, and constrained to a functional modifier range.  Palladium "broadened the sweet spot" and "bounded accuracy" in the early nineteen eighties.  I still think Palladium's system was a major model for the changes in fourth edition D&D.  I'm equally sure the designers wouldn't admit it on the rack while having molten lead poured on them.

On the other side of things:

As I've said before, the rigidity of people's brand name miniatures for the game mindset baffles me.  I can get it from a store's perspective, companies like Games Workshop give a bigger discount for higher volume.  I carry Battlefront's Flames of War but when I started out I had one little distributor who's since gone under and he carried The Plastic Soldier Company who make nice little kits and carry some really nice Russian kits at half to a third of the price of Battlefront.  At the time Battlefront had a stug and a Sherman in plastic and the Sherman required extensive trimming and three spring clamps to assemble.  Everything else was in resin and metal.  Now Battle Front has a very nice plastic range, though their troops are closer to 1/87 than 1/100.  The PSC half tracks have passenger figures that fit on the benches when the whole thing's assembled.  But I don't bring in PSC anymore.  The reason is simply that it undermines my sales of more expensive Battlefront products.  Recently there've been rumours that the other stores are thinking about carrying Flames of War.  If they do I may think about carrying PSC and letting Battlefront go.  It'll depend on if they're ordering from Battlefront and doing a good job of stocking it or just ordering odds and ends through Diamond.  In the latter case I'm all for it, I'll clean up when their customers start coming in looking for all the stuff Diamond can't get them because Diamond only carries core product and new releases and seldom stocks anything with any depth.

But yeah, there's plenty of reasons a retailer wouldn't let people use off brand figures.  Though there's still the problem of on-line discounters and ebay purchases.  I know they drive the local GW retailer nuts.  But as you guys have learned, people will take everything they can get for free, badmouth you behind your back, and run to the new guy down the block when he offers a 1% discount.

Agreed on all your points about D&D. Very true, from what I've seen over the years.

And I do understand the retailer's problems, too, and I certainly don't mind restrictions on things for use in tournaments and such. What I'm baffled by is the need for everything to be branded, and 'officially authorized approved for game play'. My FLGS just dumped a huge stock of 'generic' miniatures (ancients and early medievals) at a 75% discount off retail as they simply don't sell as people don't seem to play 'generic' games anymore. You either have a 'brand identity' or you're nowhere on the shelves. The FLGS has been talking about having me come in and do a 'miniatures day', as I usually can generate some pretty good sales, but I don't know if it would work any more.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 13, 2016, 09:24:45 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;930471
You mean you haven't played OD&D despite knowing Dave, Gary and Phil? I find that hard to believe:).

See again the number of views, Uncle;)!

He's well-prepared indeed:D!
I prefer axes or warhammers, but his choice of swords is almost like what I would use.

Nope; they didn't use their own rules all that much.

Well, I worry. I feel like I'm writing from the Elephants' Graveyard, a lot of the time... :)

If I had a decent poll-axe, I'd carry one. I like the reach range, plus the variety of hitting surfaces the things usually have. I'm not a big fan of pole arms for the individual, as I think they work best as part of a group effort. They are effective, especially as a second-rankers' weapon, but I don't like having somebody get inside my reach range and leaving me with what amounts to a bathroom plunger as a weapon. Same thing with a two-hander; the Missus got me a broadsword with a two-handed hilt, and I like that a lot; short enough not to get hung up in the arras, hits hard enough to show that you mean business.

Yeah, systemless would have been a lot better, in the long run...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on November 13, 2016, 10:48:37 PM
First, another +1 for minis and models. I play war games and RPGs, thank you. The line between the two blurs at some point, anyway.

Got another temple question. Is there a rough price list for what temples will charge for various services? Like, Alleviating the poison coursing through you is X kaitars, but Revivifying you is Y. Identify that Eye for you for X, recharging it Y. If you are member you get a discount, if your Temple is an ally, you get a smaller one, but a rival Temple is double, kind of thing. There are some prices listed in some of the rules for a few spells but not all.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on November 13, 2016, 10:51:36 PM
Also, let me echo the call for a coffee table book. I have long thought a nice system-less world book would go a long way.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 14, 2016, 07:00:18 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;930587
First, another +1 for minis and models. I play war games and RPGs, thank you. The line between the two blurs at some point, anyway.

Got another temple question. Is there a rough price list for what temples will charge for various services? Like, Alleviating the poison coursing through you is X kaitars, but Revivifying you is Y. Identify that Eye for you for X, recharging it Y. If you are member you get a discount, if your Temple is an ally, you get a smaller one, but a rival Temple is double, kind of thing. There are some prices listed in some of the rules for a few spells but not all.

Thank you! I worry... :)

Not in Phil's games with us. We had to negotiate, and cash was usually not mentioned - "socially sordid, noble sir, as this is a temple and not a tradesman's stall in the marketplace." Much of what you describe was in play, however. We usually traded favors or influence, although a certain amount of 'inducement' did change hands... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 14, 2016, 07:01:11 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;930588
Also, let me echo the call for a coffee table book. I have long thought a nice system-less world book would go a long way.

Agreed; Tekumel was, in our games, much more about setting then it was about system.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on November 14, 2016, 08:22:15 PM
Chirine,

How did Phil handle the party employing advanced technology in the game? Say, for example, the party found a weapons cache from the Latter Times and in it was a functioning blaster or "ray gun." How would Phil determine if the party could figure out how to use it? Would it be based on a Stat roll or would it be based on his roll high/roll low % dice method? Or did he just assume the party figured it out, in the interest of maintaining the story arc and moving play along?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 15, 2016, 01:07:45 AM
Somebody would dick around with the ancient technology, listening to what Phil said and then describing what they were doing, while the player and Phil rolled dice, and the rest of us hotfooted it for the nearest hard cover.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 15, 2016, 05:13:15 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;930569
Nope; they didn't use their own rules all that much.

...why?

Quote
Well, I worry. I feel like I'm writing from the Elephants' Graveyard, a lot of the time... :)

You're like every other gamer who doesn't play The Current Fad:). We all know that feeling.
I resolve the issue by just teaching other people to play the things I like, as I've said.

Quote
If I had a decent poll-axe, I'd carry one. I like the reach range, plus the variety of hitting surfaces the things usually have. I'm not a big fan of pole arms for the individual, as I think they work best as part of a group effort. They are effective, especially as a second-rankers' weapon, but I don't like having somebody get inside my reach range and leaving me with what amounts to a bathroom plunger as a weapon. Same thing with a two-hander; the Missus got me a broadsword with a two-handed hilt, and I like that a lot; short enough not to get hung up in the arras, hits hard enough to show that you mean business.

Well, I find polearms work just great for individual combat, provided you've got armour as well. We tried playing with training polearms on the last training camp. It was by no means easy to close with a poleaxe user, I can report;).
Quote

Yeah, systemless would have been a lot better, in the long run...

Goes for pretty much any good setting, if you ask me;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 15, 2016, 06:46:05 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;930805
Chirine,

How did Phil handle the party employing advanced technology in the game? Say, for example, the party found a weapons cache from the Latter Times and in it was a functioning blaster or "ray gun." How would Phil determine if the party could figure out how to use it? Would it be based on a Stat roll or would it be based on his roll high/roll low % dice method? Or did he just assume the party figured it out, in the interest of maintaining the story arc and moving play along?

Shemek.

He'd watch us fumble around with the thing, and roll only a simple 'yes / no' to see what worked and what didn't as we told him what we were doing. It provided him with hours of fun and amusement, especially when the Priest of Ksarul - who fancied himself an expert in ancient technology - tried to figure out how the thing worked. 'Role-playing', not 'roll-playing'. We just didn't roll dice all that much.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 15, 2016, 06:46:40 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;930857
Somebody would dick around with the ancient technology, listening to what Phil said and then describing what they were doing, while the player and Phil rolled dice, and the rest of us hotfooted it for the nearest hard cover.

Agreed. Phil would laugh his fool head off at the results, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 15, 2016, 06:48:26 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;930892
...why?


You're like every other gamer who doesn't play The Current Fad:). We all know that feeling.
I resolve the issue by just teaching other people to play the things I like, as I've said.


Well, I find polearms work just great for individual combat, provided you've got armour as well. We tried playing with training polearms on the last training camp. It was by no means easy to close with a poleaxe user, I can report;).

Goes for pretty much any good setting, if you ask me;).

No idea. I suspect that it was because they knew what they wanted to do, and the stories that they wanted to tell. Gronan can do the same thing for "Chainmail", and I do it in my games. We just knew what to so, and did it.

Agreed with your other points, too! :)
Title: A bit of kit for player-characters...
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 15, 2016, 06:51:09 AM
[ATTACH=CONFIG]531[/ATTACH]

Decks and upperworks in teak oil, lower hull in wood stain. Oars still drying; teak oil. Sails artists' canvas, still to be tied properly. Masts can come off.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on November 15, 2016, 07:54:42 AM
Where's the +1 or the thumbs up option?

This is great, love the ship.

Oh fuck I think I wet myself.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on November 15, 2016, 08:14:53 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;930899
[ATTACH=CONFIG]531[/ATTACH]

Decks and upperworks in teak oil, lower hull in wood stain. Oars still drying; teak oil. Sails artists' canvas, still to be tied properly. Masts can come off.

Now you need a second one, for the battles and boarding actions. :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 15, 2016, 10:34:07 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;930892
...why?


Free Kriegsspiel.  The written text is a guideline, not a straight jacket.  Like the original OD&D rules didn't have a "coup de grace" rule because Dave and Gary both figured if you tied somebody up and hit them in the head with a battleaxe you didn't need a rule to tell you they were dead, hit points be damned.

Boy, were THEY wrong.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 15, 2016, 11:05:01 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;930899
[ATTACH=CONFIG]531[/ATTACH]

Decks and upperworks in teak oil, lower hull in wood stain. Oars still drying; teak oil. Sails artists' canvas, still to be tied properly. Masts can come off.

Splendid!!! When do we sail...??? Ancient Modeler indeed!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: GameDaddy on November 15, 2016, 11:10:36 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;930899
[ATTACH=CONFIG]531[/ATTACH]

Decks and upperworks in teak oil, lower hull in wood stain. Oars still drying; teak oil. Sails artists' canvas, still to be tied properly. Masts can come off.


Wow that's a beautiful Galley. Interesting this shows up here at this time, I just had a character one Kotaru HiKalodel  sail in a Galley very similar to this from Jakalla last Saturday, and will shortly have my convention writeup for UCON posted here.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 15, 2016, 07:28:04 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;930906
Where's the +1 or the thumbs up option?

This is great, love the ship.

Oh fuck I think I wet myself.

Thank you! (Towel? Wet vac? Salvage pumps? I am equipped for maritime emergencies...) :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 15, 2016, 07:36:33 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;930911
Now you need a second one, for the battles and boarding actions. :D


Well, he coughed and blushed modestly, Akho joins Warrior, Fearless, Dreadnought, and the mighty Nemesis in the galley fleet. The first is a nice little galley from Flagship Games (possibly now from Scale Creep or Old Guard after Flagship closed) the second and third are open pentaconters in expanded urethane foam that I got at Origins back in 1987 from a company long gone, and the massive battlewagon of the fleet was scratch-built. There are another eight ships in the sailing fleet, plus about a dozen smaller craft. (Photos can be taken of them, if you like.) All in 28mm, for the reasons you mention... :)

Have I mentioned I like ships and boats? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 15, 2016, 07:42:33 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;930939
Splendid!!! When do we sail...??? Ancient Modeler indeed!!!

H:0)


Soon as you get down to the quay and we get your baggage stowed away. Don't have to worry about the tides, either; we haven't got any on Tekumel, and we're too far up river in Tanis... :)

I am 'ancient', I think; I'm about to celebrate over fifty years of model-building of one kind or another. (You'd think that, after all this time, I'd know what I was doing...) :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 15, 2016, 07:43:33 PM
Quote from: GameDaddy;930942
Wow that's a beautiful Galley. Interesting this shows up here at this time, I just had a character one Kotaru HiKalodel  sail in a Galley very similar to this from Jakalla last Saturday, and will shortly have my convention writeup for UCON posted here.

Thank you!

Wonderful! Tell us all about it, when you would! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 16, 2016, 04:19:12 AM
That's a wonderful galley, Uncle:)! As I've said, sometimes I envy your figures collection just the tiniest little bit. (I've also said it's only until I remember the lack of storage space).

Also, I've got a very important question and can't find the answer. Ssúmani/Mánikh hiSsúyal (Food of the Ssú, for everyone) is mentioned to grow in "wet lowlands, swamps, fens, bogs, palmetto forest, and deep jungle" in Bethorm. A PC in my campaign is planning an attack on a Ssu "fortress" that's surrounded by a patch of it.

The question the player asked immediately* was: "are swamps the same as on Earth, including swamp gas? They do contain sulphur, right?"
Yes, we can all guess where this is going.
I answered, as the NPC, that he's going to consult a scholar (she's talking with her husband from Tekumel, who is a Lyviani soldier and politician, but not a scholar).
She tasked him with asking also "do Ssu breath oxygen".

And I took a pause to open this thread immediately. It's asking a scholar time;)!

*Remember that in my campaign the PC is an Earthling who adapted on Tekumel, so she knows about swamps and the chemical constitution of air. Talk about "Barbarians off the boat":D!
The character generation itself was kinda unusual, I admit. Though I think that both the fans of Frei Kriegspiegel and Traveller fans would have approved.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;930931
Free Kriegsspiel.  The written text is a guideline, not a straight jacket.  Like the original OD&D rules didn't have a "coup de grace" rule because Dave and Gary both figured if you tied somebody up and hit them in the head with a battleaxe you didn't need a rule to tell you they were dead, hit points be damned.

Boy, were THEY wrong.
Well, "coup de grace" was clear to everyone I knew...ok, almost everyone;). What was less clear was whether a group of people pinning you would allow a "coup de grace" attack.
But I must now ask, weren't they using OD&D as the base for their "Frei Kriegspiel"? If they did, Chirine has played quite the real D&D already (see the text I quoted). Maybe it was "OD&D with lots of houserules", but it still counts in my book.
(And of course, we can argue whether EPT is D&D adapted to Tekumel or not, but let's not go there in this thread).

And if their Frei Kriegspiel style wasn't OD&D-based, well, I'll be waiting for his first impressions of playing some version of D&D, and can predict it's going to be fun to read;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 16, 2016, 06:46:04 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;931075
That's a wonderful galley, Uncle:)! As I've said, sometimes I envy your figures collection just the tiniest little bit. (I've also said it's only until I remember the lack of storage space).

Also, I've got a very important question and can't find the answer. Ssúmani/Mánikh hiSsúyal (Food of the Ssú, for everyone) is mentioned to grow in "wet lowlands, swamps, fens, bogs, palmetto forest, and deep jungle" in Bethorm. A PC in my campaign is planning an attack on a Ssu "fortress" that's surrounded by a patch of it.

The question the player asked immediately* was: "are swamps the same as on Earth, including swamp gas? They do contain sulphur, right?"
Yes, we can all guess where this is going.
I answered, as the NPC, that he's going to consult a scholar (she's talking with her husband from Tekumel, who is a Lyviani soldier and politician, but not a scholar).
She tasked him with asking also "do Ssu breath oxygen".

And I took a pause to open this thread immediately. It's asking a scholar time;)!

*Remember that in my campaign the PC is an Earthling who adapted on Tekumel, so she knows about swamps and the chemical constitution of air. Talk about "Barbarians off the boat":D!
The character generation itself was kinda unusual, I admit. Though I think that both the fans of Frei Kriegspiegel and Traveller fans would have approved.


Well, "coup de grace" was clear to everyone I knew...ok, almost everyone;). What was less clear was whether a group of people pinning you would allow a "coup de grace" attack.
But I must now ask, weren't they using OD&D as the base for their "Frei Kriegspiel"? If they did, Chirine has played quite the real D&D already (see the text I quoted). Maybe it was "OD&D with lots of houserules", but it still counts in my book.
(And of course, we can argue whether EPT is D&D adapted to Tekumel or not, but let's not go there in this thread).

And if their Frei Kriegspiel style wasn't OD&D-based, well, I'll be waiting for his first impressions of playing some version of D&D, and can predict it's going to be fun to read;)!


Thank you! And I do agree - the sheer volume of storage space is a pain, sometimes. :)

Yes; as far as we know, both the Ssu and Hlyss are oxygen-breathers. And yes, swamps on Tekumel are pretty much the same as Terran ones. I don't know about the sulphur content - I would have thought that methane would have been the primary component of swamp gas, but I'm no expert on this.

I shall report back, of course! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 16, 2016, 10:41:29 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;929736
Agreed. I've known some real shits, over the years, and I don't feel the need to give them any more of my time and energy. What's been done has been done, and they'll have to live with the consequences of their actions.

Well, I think I need to state my bias at the outset; when I first started with Phil, back in early '76, I was right up front with him about wanting to be the informal archivist of his creative process. Nothing more, nothing less; what I wanted to do - and then did for decades - was simply collect, record, and store the data being generated every Thursday night. The 'custom of the house' was that every time Phil did a map or drawing, I'd make a copy and he'd keep the original. Phil was a very disorganized 'housekeeper', and after a while I would up running two sets of records in parallel. For all intents and purposes, I was the 'back-up copy'. That's it; that's all. And that's what I did.

After he passed away, I was able to make a full and complete copy of all of his files, both paper and electronic. I filled in the gaps in his collection from mine, and mine from his; I also got help from Tekumel fans from all over the world, who contributed bits of their own that they'd found over the years. At this point, what I'd consider 'the crown jewels' would be:

- The 1950s 'proto-Tekumel' materials: The maps, documents, house rules, and artwork from Phil's high school and college games. These include his fannish materials, as well as the unfinished (and lost for decades until I found it) first Tekumel novel.

- The 12-13 chapters of "Beside The Dark Pool of Memory". his last and unfinished Tekumel novel.

- His childhood toy soldiers. We did a complete photo inventory of these, as well as making copies of the photos of his childhood games that his dad took.

- The bitmaps of his fonts for his languages. A lot of these were never published.

- His artwork. One could do a coffee-table book of his artwork.

- The audio tapes. Several of the original players in our group did a series of recorded interviews with him in the late 1980s, on all sorts of Tekumel-related subjects. These tapes have never been published, and have been sitting in my files for decades unheard. We also have tapes of game sessions with him.

What did surprise me about going through his files was that there was not a lot of 'new' material - by which I mean, 'new' to me. A lot of it would be new to people, especially now that most of our old publications are no longer available. Could it be published sooner, rather then later? Sure, if somebody put the effort into it.


Yes, where once I had imagined his archives were a cornucopia of previously-unseen Tekumel, I did get the impression in the last few years that that wasn't really the case. So mostly we must hope for republication of previously-published material?

I know I would love to see the content of the Imperial Courier and other 80s journals republished. Whenever I look at the tables of contents I drool. Somewhere I got a sense that those were copyright individual authors, and it would be almost impossible to republish the journals in their original form (is that so?), but even if individual articles could be republished, that would be fantastic.

I agree a book of the Professors art would be amazing, he may not have been the best Tekumel artist technically, but  nobody illustrated his world quite as well as he did
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 16, 2016, 10:47:18 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;931091
Thank you! And I do agree - the sheer volume of storage space is a pain, sometimes. :)

Yes; as far as we know, both the Ssu and Hlyss are oxygen-breathers. And yes, swamps on Tekumel are pretty much the same as Terran ones. I don't know about the sulphur content - I would have thought that methane would have been the primary component of swamp gas, but I'm no expert on this.

I shall report back, of course! :)
Excellent:D! Thank you, Uncle, I'm researching swamp fires now, and that's going to be fun!

Quote from: Zirunel;931104
Yes, where once I had imagined his archives were a cornucopia of previously-unseen Tekumel, I did get the impression in the last few years that that wasn't really the case. So mostly we must hope for republication of previously-published material?
Or we can go to the same sources as MAR Barker did. Except we don't need to go out of our homes for this, and we can make our own Tekumels;).
And of course, the list of things we've never seen that Chirine suggested is also interesting. But I get the feeling MAR Barker would be even happier with the first option.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 16, 2016, 11:04:29 AM
Oh I am a firm believer in people making their own Tekumels. There are so many gaps and people should have the courage to fill them by just making stuff up.

Tekumel has way too much of a history of fans believing there was only one real Tekumel, that it lived in Minneapolis, and that personal Tekumels elsewhere were likely to be "wrong"  or at least inadequate. I remember for many years fans would clamour for news from "Tekumel Prime" as if they were insecure about their own games and needed to bring them into line with "real Tekumel." In a way, I think the fact that the creator ran an active game of his own actually held back the wider spread of personal Tekumels and of the game as a whole.

That said, when I see there was an article on Tekumel coinage (hopefully with illustrations?) or some other setting topic,  I can't help wanting to see it!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 16, 2016, 12:02:32 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;931108
Oh I am a firm believer in people making their own Tekumels. There are so many gaps and people should have the courage to fill them by just making stuff up.
We're in agreement, then:).
And I recommend documentaries and non-fiction books as the best tools for Tekumel playing.

Quote
Tekumel has way too much of a history of fans believing there was only one real Tekumel, that it lived in Minneapolis, and that personal Tekumels elsewhere were likely to be "wrong"  or at least inadequate.
I've never understood that feeling, but yes, it seems to be there. Maybe the game should have been less advertised?
I mean, I'm sure Greg Stafford can run Pendragon or Glorantha, in fact he probably does, and yet people wouldn't think their variants of it are any less adequate!
The author of Legends of Wulin was running his own game, and yet people weren't looking at it for news. For ideas, yes, certainly, and he has a funny way of describing it!

Quote
That said, when I see there was an article on Tekumel coinage (hopefully with illustrations?) or some other setting topic,  I can't help wanting to see it!
Getting ideas from other gamers is something I can totally understand.
Sometimes, that becomes a rulebook;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 16, 2016, 12:29:52 PM
"Bit of a breeze here today, Chirine."
"Why yes, Harchar, quite brisk indeed.  Has anybody seen the Glorious General, I need to deliver the morning reports."
* BAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRFF!!!!! *
"...found him..."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 16, 2016, 12:38:52 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;931133
"Bit of a breeze here today, Chirine."
"Why yes, Harchar, quite brisk indeed.  Has anybody seen the Glorious General, I need to deliver the morning reports."
* BAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRFF!!!!! *
"...found him..."

Actual moment from a game, I presume, Glorious General:)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on November 16, 2016, 12:56:26 PM
I think it's the...somewhat inaccessible nature of Tekumel as opposed to the knowledge of a home game.  Everyone knew Gary ran Greyhawk, and no one cared that Greyhawk-185463 wasn't in line with Greyhawk-1.  Same with the Realms.  But Greyhawk is based on Appendix N and Western European medivalism combined with Western American culture.

Glorantha is based on Campbellian Myth and Tekumel is based on a foundation that most US gamers don't have background in.  As a result, I think the reason those two settings in particular suffer from the "Doing it Right" problem is that many GMs, being less familiar with the content as a result are less confident to just take it and run with it.

The lunatic shitdogs that somehow wound up in charge of the Tekumel license and considered themselves the Enlightened Elite because of it probably didn't help things. :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 16, 2016, 01:01:36 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;930899
[ATTACH=CONFIG]531[/ATTACH]

Decks and upperworks in teak oil, lower hull in wood stain. Oars still drying; teak oil. Sails artists' canvas, still to be tied properly. Masts can come off.

This is what forty years of practice can do for you, kids.

Chirine, you are a true master.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 16, 2016, 01:15:14 PM
well, it didn't help that whenever an outsider enthusiastically shared details of their personal Tekumel, there was often a helpful insider ready to step in and tell them no, you're wrong, the Governor of Urmish is not Someone hiMadeup, it's Someone'else hiNeverheardofbefore. So yeah. Go ahead and make stuff up but keep quiet about it because it's wrong.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 16, 2016, 02:24:54 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;931141
I think it's the...somewhat inaccessible nature of Tekumel as opposed to the knowledge of a home game.  Everyone knew Gary ran Greyhawk, and no one cared that Greyhawk-185463 wasn't in line with Greyhawk-1.  Same with the Realms.  But Greyhawk is based on Appendix N and Western European medivalism combined with Western American culture.

Most Americans know just as little about the European Middle Ages* as they do about the Islamic Golden Age. Why don't they apply the same cheerful ignorance to Tekumel that they've applied to Greyhawk:)?

*To the extent that Greyhawk is actually based on the European Middle Ages, which I don't think is a given.


Quote
Glorantha is based on Campbellian Myth and Tekumel is based on a foundation that most US gamers don't have background in.

I've never even heard of Glorantha encountering the same issues as Tekumel.

Quote
As a result, I think the reason those two settings in particular suffer from the "Doing it Right" problem is that many GMs, being less familiar with the content as a result are less confident to just take it and run with it.

And in reality, they should. It's going to be as accurate as a D&D game is to medieval culture...and that's fine even by me;).

Quote
The lunatic shitdogs that somehow wound up in charge of the Tekumel license and considered themselves the Enlightened Elite because of it probably didn't help things. :D

Yeah, they probably didn't, I'd agree:D!

Quote from: Zirunel;931149
well, it didn't help that whenever an outsider enthusiastically shared details of their personal Tekumel, there was often a helpful insider ready to step in and tell them no, you're wrong, the Governor of Urmish is not Someone hiMadeup, it's Someone'else hiNeverheardofbefore. So yeah. Go ahead and make stuff up but keep quiet about it because it's wrong.

Is that a Thing?
Because I should write the AP of my campaign if it is. Anyone who corrects me in such a manner is likely to get one of my famous answers.
"Thanks, but the one you mentioned is dead or disgraced. Now it's whoever I say it is" is the mildest form, if I think the guy was being helpful.
If I think the guy was being smug, I might use the hard form instead;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 16, 2016, 02:53:54 PM
I doubt it's a thing nowadays. Tekumel Prime no longer exists. But I do recall it being a thing back in the 90s, in the Blue Room and on the Usenet group, and in the Yahoo group in the early 2000s, when Tekumel Prime was still a going concern.

If I recall correctly, the helpful person was usually a TNG player flaunting their insider status, but sometimes, it has to be said, it was the professor himself. I think he felt quite strongly that there was only one real Tekumel, and it showed. Certainly he could be quite gracious in his responses to outsiders and take care not to deflate their personal Tekumels. Or he could be quite huffy. You never quite knew what was coming. It seemed to depend on his mood that day.

(or on his health. Certainly in the 2000s, he seemed tired and increasingly terse in his responses, and occasional crankiness would be understandable)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 16, 2016, 05:34:03 PM
Phil's health was not good for a number of years before his passing, I am sad to say.  The old saw "If you don't have your health, what do you have" is true.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 16, 2016, 06:18:22 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;931191
Phil's health was not good for a number of years before his passing, I am sad to say.  The old saw "If you don't have your health, what do you have" is true.

Totally. For me, the bright spot in those years was the language group. Nothing to do with gaming. Nobody bugging him to quantify anything (you could tell he was never comfortable with quantifying Tekumel and almost always regretted it when he tried). Just language. Something dear to his heart. Sure he was still cranky when our efforts didn't measure up but he shared information freely and generously, and he just seemed to have more animation, energy and interest. For me that seemed to be his last hurrah in engaging the Tekumelophile public in any significant way
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on November 16, 2016, 08:10:01 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;931170
I doubt it's a thing nowadays. Tekumel Prime no longer exists. But I do recall it being a thing back in the 90s, in the Blue Room and on the Usenet group, and in the Yahoo group in the early 2000s, when Tekumel Prime was still a going concern.

If I recall correctly, the helpful person was usually a TNG player flaunting their insider status, but sometimes, it has to be said, it was the professor himself. I think he felt quite strongly that there was only one real Tekumel, and it showed. Certainly he could be quite gracious in his responses to outsiders and take care not to deflate their personal Tekumels. Or he could be quite huffy. You never quite knew what was coming. It seemed to depend on his mood that day.

(or on his health. Certainly in the 2000s, he seemed tired and increasingly terse in his responses, and occasional crankiness would be understandable)


Sigh....l remember those days. The funny thing was that in PM's he was always quite amiable, and I daresay quite supportive and helpful in what I was doing with my game. I guess because Pechano was such a clean slate and so distant from his main story arcs  he felt that almost anything was possible, and I think he enjoyed steering me along a path that was developing a small corner of a large world.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 16, 2016, 09:10:15 PM
Well, Phil WAS a linguist, so I'm not surprised he enjoyed the language group.  Good.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 17, 2016, 08:37:51 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;931217
Sigh....l remember those days. The funny thing was that in PM's he was always quite amiable, and I daresay quite supportive and helpful in what I was doing with my game. I guess because Pechano was such a clean slate and so distant from his main story arcs  he felt that almost anything was possible, and I think he enjoyed steering me along a path that was developing a small corner of a large world.

Shemek.


Yes, I remember him nudging people to game in remote, unmapped Tekumel, where they would have carte blanche to just make stuff up without worrying about canon. Of course, Pechano is not that remote, but as you say, it was removed from his own core interests.

And yes, I too found him to be generally quite collegial in correspondence. He was even quite willing to incorporate other people's ideas into his own "real" Tekumel as long as they didn't conflict with his core interests or with subjects he had already developed in detail.

Although we think of Tekumel as a detailed, developed setting, most of the setting was only ever sketched in outline, with small localized pockets of great detail. There has always been vast scope for others to contribute.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on November 17, 2016, 08:40:50 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;931160
Most Americans know just as little about the European Middle Ages* as they do about the Islamic Golden Age. Why don't they apply the same cheerful ignorance to Tekumel that they've applied to Greyhawk:)?

*To the extent that Greyhawk is actually based on the European Middle Ages, which I don't think is a given.
But it's based on what they think they know about the Middle Ages, combined with some American Western Frontierism...in any case it's familiar, which is the actual point.  

Quote from: AsenRG;931160
I've never even heard of Glorantha encountering the same issues as Tekumel.
That's probably a combination of me spending more time on Glorantha boards than I did Tekumel, so I don't know the full extent of the douchebaggery.  But, when you ask "How can a newbie start understanding Glorantha"? and the response is "I've played in Glorantha for 20 years, I could spend the rest of my life studying Glorantha and not understand Glorantha."...Houston, we have a problem.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 17, 2016, 10:42:34 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;931292
But it's based on what they think they know about the Middle Ages, combined with some American Western Frontierism...in any case it's familiar, which is the actual point.

So, now we just have to persuade people that Tekumel works like the Western Frontier, or maybe like USA just before the Prohibition:D?

Quote
That's probably a combination of me spending more time on Glorantha boards than I did Tekumel, so I don't know the full extent of the douchebaggery.  But, when you ask "How can a newbie start understanding Glorantha"? and the response is "I've played in Glorantha for 20 years, I could spend the rest of my life studying Glorantha and not understand Glorantha."...Houston, we have a problem.

I can see now how easy I had it by talking with the Australian Gloranthaphiles that actually taught me about the setting.
BTW, that answer is just funny, and would make me laugh no matter which setting it is about;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 17, 2016, 11:54:23 AM
"The Tekumel you can understand is not the true Tekumel."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 17, 2016, 04:22:31 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;931324
"The Tekumel you can understand is not the true Tekumel."

It seems the Green One is saying that, yes. I'm not quite sure he's right, but I'm treating it as a joking hypothetical.

Also, "Dao that can be put in words ain't the real deal".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on November 17, 2016, 05:44:45 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;931349
It seems the Green One is saying that, yes. I'm not quite sure he's right, but I'm treating it as a joking hypothetical.

Also, "Dao that can be put in words ain't the real deal".


I'm not saying that, I'm saying that when the people who know about the game worlds are saying that, like that literal response I saw on Glorantha boards, then that really doesn't help a setting that starts off being a little outside people's cultural familiarity wheelhouse to begin with.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 17, 2016, 06:30:11 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;931145
This is what forty years of practice can do for you, kids.

Chirine, you are a true master.


Perhaps. my General. perhaps...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]556[/ATTACH]

Sort-of-Aztec figure from Steve Jackson Games (long out of production for a long out of print game), rare earth magnet by Hawk, 'Small Flame Marker' by Litko, washer by Ace Hardware.

Now, when I can source some really tiny switches that I can hide in the bases where I've hidden the battery and run the copper foil up to the LED in the torch, then, young Skywalker, then I shall be the master...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 17, 2016, 06:51:46 PM
Ah, the 1990s on the old Usenet group. Where the phrase, "Barker's Own", was born.

Let me tell you all a little story. Along about 1990, one of the people who had poisoned my relationship with Phil took the time to give me a call to tell me with great glee and delight that Phil had, in one of his fits of pique, killed Chirine (and his NPC wife and infant children). I heard him out, and told him that if he cared to, tell Phil that I hoped that this made the old boy happy; the more power to him. It's his campaign, after all. Tearing up a 3" x 5" index card was about the total result - Chirine was a PC in an RPG, and that was it. (As I mentioned when this first came up in this thread, some of the Tekumel fans of the day called Phil out on this, and there was some 'retconning' done; it didn't fly very well, and Phil lost some more very good people over it. Others were merely expelled from the group.)

And then, I politely told him that in my Tekumel campaign, Chirine and his little family were just fine, doing the Sir John Hawkwood thing off in the Nyemesel Isles, and that anyone was welcome to drop by our warm sunny climes for a visit. The response was "NO! NO! YOU CAN'T DO THAT! THAT'S NOT REAL TEKUMEL!!!" and many similar words to that effect at the time and for a decade afterwards. For the rest of the decade, I got many threats of legal action and such to prevent me from running my Tekumel campaign, as it wasn't 'authorized' and 'official'. (The 1990s sucked for me and my family, if you want my opinion.) These were the days when it was being floated to assess a fee or charge to make one's Tekumel campaign 'official' and 'authorized'; that never got any traction, either.

As I mentioned a while back in this thread. Phil himself said "Here's my Tekumel, now make it yours!" So, I did. And I encourage others to follow his advice, and from what I gather quite a few people have over the years. More power to them, it keeps the spirit of those Thursday Nights alive after all these years.

So, here's my thought. Phil did what Phil did; I do what I do. If there's anything you can take away from that for your own games, then have at and be welcome to it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron on November 17, 2016, 07:03:14 PM
Crazy stuff. I lost a good friend over gaming, myself. Sad.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on November 17, 2016, 07:09:10 PM
If I recall, you had mentioned previously that Aqaa "the Worm of the Catacombs" were used by the ancients for mining and other such tunnel digging.
Do you have any idea what would keep one out if it was motivated to dig into a place?
Would the metals and high strength materials of a starship do it?
I'm thinking that given enough time they could chew/dissolve their way through.
What is your experience/opinion?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 17, 2016, 07:15:12 PM
Quote from: Baron;931366
Crazy stuff. I lost a good friend over gaming, myself. Sad.

I'd agree with that assessment. It went from one heck of a lot of fun gaming for a decade to being all about the courtiers' position around the throne, and the effects of that plotting and chicanery are still with us today.

My curse, as it always has been, is to know what can be - not what will be. I saw what could be done for Tekumel, way back when, and tried very hard to make that happen for Phil and his fans. A few people got bent out of shape about that and with the folks who tried to help me make the dreams come true - so, we all had to go. And over a couple of years, they got their way; over a couple of decades, we've seen the result.

I've been asked, point-blank, why I don't reflect all this nastiness in "To Serve The Petal Throne" and make the book more grim and nasty. No, thank you; I would like very much for you to remember the witty, inventive, and downright unique man that I knew and the wonderful nights we had with him for so many years. If I can do that, and you laugh along with us as we go off on our adventures, then I think I've done what I set out to do forty years ago...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 17, 2016, 07:18:17 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;931367
If I recall, you had mentioned previously that Aqaa "the Worm of the Catacombs" were used by the ancients for mining and other such tunnel digging.
Do you have any idea what would keep one out if it was motivated to dig into a place?
Would the metals and high strength materials of a starship do it?
I'm thinking that given enough time they could chew/dissolve their way through.
What is your experience/opinion?
=

It's in Phil's last novel too, I think.

Nothing, except the starship hulls that you mention. Nothing seems to get through them, at least in our experiences with them in the old star port north of the Plain of Towers and the other ships we've happened on. They both chew and dissolve, and given time thy can get through anything we could come up with.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on November 17, 2016, 07:21:35 PM
Well, there is one consideration without getting crazy about it...if someone wanted to spend money at this point buying Tekumel stuff, it would be nice to know what is being sold by the decent people and what is being sold by the shitlords.  Last thing I want to do is contribute to the people destroying the place. A PM will do. :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 17, 2016, 10:04:20 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;931359
I'm not saying that, I'm saying that when the people who know about the game worlds are saying that, like that literal response I saw on Glorantha boards, then that really doesn't help a setting that starts off being a little outside people's cultural familiarity wheelhouse to begin with.
Yeah, maybe I've misunderstood you, then.

My point was that all settings except the modern world start outside of people's cultural familiarity wheelhouse:). (The cases where the people are running a setting they have already researched notwithstanding, because they're a minority). Some people just believe they know enough to run some kinds of settings, but unless they've researched them, that's simply not true.
Of course, the answer is "so do the damned research, then!"

Quote from: chirine ba kal;931364
As I mentioned a while back in this thread. Phil himself said "Here's my Tekumel, now make it yours!" So, I did. And I encourage others to follow his advice, and from what I gather quite a few people have over the years. More power to them, it keeps the spirit of those Thursday Nights alive after all these years.

So, here's my thought. Phil did what Phil did; I do what I do. If there's anything you can take away from that for your own games, then have at and be welcome to it.
I've taken that advice to heart, Uncle, thank you!

Also, anyone who has ever published a book about a setting is explicitly giving me permission to game in said setting;). This remains true even if don't I own the book, but loaned it from a friend, or just read a review of it and am using its core concepts.
I'm sorry that people who don't understand that simple fact have caused you such grief, but I believe that your answer has been an excellent one, and probably made them freak out even more!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 19, 2016, 08:14:33 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;931105
Or we can go to the same sources as MAR Barker did.

Speaking of which, the Howard Hawks epic "Land of the Pharaohs" was on TCM earlier in the week. Kinda hokey, with some weird ahistorical elements and wooden "epic-style" dialogue and acting, but fun.

I don't know for certain but I'm guessing it was one of the many Hollywood genre films that helped shape Tekumel back in the 50s.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 19, 2016, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;931371
Well, there is one consideration without getting crazy about it...if someone wanted to spend money at this point buying Tekumel stuff, it would be nice to know what is being sold by the decent people and what is being sold by the shitlords.  Last thing I want to do is contribute to the people destroying the place. A PM will do. :D


I understand your feelings, but I'm not going to do that for my own philosophical reasons. I hold that "any Tekumel is better then no Tekumel"; since Phil passed away, all of our old publications went from being effectively worthless to being "A great investment value, sure to increase in value over time!"and largely taken away from players by the 'serious collectors' due to absurd increases in purchase costs. The new publications, some of which are very good, are subject to the "no Tekumel if it isn't our Tekumel" philosophy. As I've stated before, I'm a populist not an elitist, and I'd rather see people out there discovering Tekumel for themselves. Anything beyond that, a little research will provide you with the information you need to make your own decisions.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 19, 2016, 11:52:23 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;931394
I've taken that advice to heart, Uncle, thank you!

Also, anyone who has ever published a book about a setting is explicitly giving me permission to game in said setting;). This remains true even if don't I own the book, but loaned it from a friend, or just read a review of it and am using its core concepts.
I'm sorry that people who don't understand that simple fact have caused you such grief, but I believe that your answer has been an excellent one, and probably made them freak out even more!

Well, yes. Even in our time, Tekumel had the joy of being a 'living world' campaign, where people from all over would send in their campaign reports to us and we'd publish them. Phil would often include these reports in his own games, as he liked the unpredictability and randomness that it introduced into his meta-campaign. There was no sense of 'authorized' and / or 'official' Tekumel; it's what we did in all of our campaigns - Phil's two groups and my two groups operated in parallel, for example. What made all this work so well was that there was a kind of unspoken agreement that all of the groups would try to stay out of each other's way - although we all made 'cameos' in campaigns - and we'd all try to stay out of the 'central plots' that Phil was spinning for his novels. Although we made cameos there, too.

The notion of centralized control - which one observer has described as 'Stalinist' - came in in the 1990s, and didn;t help to establish Tekumel gaming as a welcoming place - as also has been observed.

Me, I just believe in getting out there and playing. Whatever it is.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 19, 2016, 11:58:12 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;931572
Speaking of which, the Howard Hawks epic "Land of the Pharaohs" was on TCM earlier in the week. Kinda hokey, with some weird ahistorical elements and wooden "epic-style" dialogue and acting, but fun.

I don't know for certain but I'm guessing it was one of the many Hollywood genre films that helped shape Tekumel back in the 50s.


Yes, it was; it was what Phil-the-historian called a "guilty pleasure" for all the reasons that you mention, but one which Phil-the-world-creator used for some truly memorable things - he loved the tomb traps, for example, and I prevented another PC from activating it just in time in a game session only because I'd see the movie.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 19, 2016, 02:37:00 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;931602
Yes, it was; it was what Phil-the-historian called a "guilty pleasure" for all the reasons that you mention, but one which Phil-the-world-creator used for some truly memorable things - he loved the tomb traps, for example, and I prevented another PC from activating it just in time in a game session only because I'd see the movie.


I grew up on those genre flicks. As a kid in the 60s, they were my Saturday morning TV fare (on a very small B&W TV unfortunately). I have had a soft spot for them ever since and even though I could now roll my eyes at their inaccuracies, I generally don't. They have their own merits and I don't think the professor, or anyone else, should feel the least bit of guilt about appreciating their quirky charms.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 19, 2016, 02:52:09 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;931601
Well, yes. Even in our time, Tekumel had the joy of being a 'living world' campaign, where people from all over would send in their campaign reports to us and we'd publish them. Phil would often include these reports in his own games, as he liked the unpredictability and randomness that it introduced into his meta-campaign. There was no sense of 'authorized' and / or 'official' Tekumel; it's what we did in all of our campaigns - Phil's two groups and my two groups operated in parallel, for example. What made all this work so well was that there was a kind of unspoken agreement that all of the groups would try to stay out of each other's way - although we all made 'cameos' in campaigns - and we'd all try to stay out of the 'central plots' that Phil was spinning for his novels. Although we made cameos there, too.

The notion of centralized control - which one observer has described as 'Stalinist' - came in in the 1990s, and didn;t help to establish Tekumel gaming as a welcoming place - as also has been observed.

Me, I just believe in getting out there and playing. Whatever it is.
We all agree, so that's settled, obviously.

And now I have to prepare for tomorrow's attack on the Ssu. Speaking of which, what do you think their reaction would be to the "native vegetation", growing in the swamps around their fortress, being lit from all sides at once:D?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 19, 2016, 03:12:57 PM
Perhaps the overheated pods will explode like pustules of corrosive juices, turning the swamp into a highly-acidic toxic moat and limiting the approaches to their fortress? In which case, the Ssu might just take the good with the bad.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 19, 2016, 03:41:13 PM
BTW I am not suggesting thats what would happen or should happen. It's frickin' alien vegetation, it'll  do what you say it does. Just saying you can turn your PCs bright idea into a complication. If you want to.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 19, 2016, 04:47:43 PM
Well, the current plan would be to use spells to traverse the moat, along with a very small group of specially trained assassins:).

Complications are good, I just don't want to introduce them unless they make sense. I leave the logic of "introduce complications so there's enough challenge" to other Referees;).
OTOH, I also don't want to skip complications that would make sense, so by all means, keep them coming!

BTW, the fire itself is a distraction, and we're going to try and negotiate a legion staying relatively nearby. This way, the Ssu would know who is responsible. With some luck, they wouldn't look for the attackers under their own frontal orifices until it's too late. In the best case scenario, they would be out before the alarms has been sounded.

Did I mention it's a rescue mission, and that there might be Shunned Ones inside that no PC knows anything about:D?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 19, 2016, 07:44:21 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;931620
I grew up on those genre flicks. As a kid in the 60s, they were my Saturday morning TV fare (on a very small B&W TV unfortunately). I have had a soft spot for them ever since and even though I could now roll my eyes at their inaccuracies, I generally don't. They have their own merits and I don't think the professor, or anyone else, should feel the least bit of guilt about appreciating their quirky charms.

They are fun; I grew up on them on Saturday 'matinee movies'; they were cheap for stations to buy, and filled the air time until the locals went back on the network. 'Peplums'. 'sword and sandal epics'. the old Republic serials, the the 'big-budget' flicks when they came on in prime time. I got to watch a few with Phil, and his obvious delight in them was quite apparent.

And just chock-full of material for GMs; too. Has it been mentioned that Dave Arneson loved those Japanese rubber monster movies? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 19, 2016, 07:46:03 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;931621
We all agree, so that's settled, obviously.

And now I have to prepare for tomorrow's attack on the Ssu. Speaking of which, what do you think their reaction would be to the "native vegetation", growing in the swamps around their fortress, being lit from all sides at once:D?

I think they'd be really, really upset.

I mean, they use it for both food and as an obstacle, so I think they'd react pretty violently.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 19, 2016, 07:48:40 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;931626
BTW I am not suggesting thats what would happen or should happen. It's frickin' alien vegetation, it'll  do what you say it does. Just saying you can turn your PCs bright idea into a complication. If you want to.

Dear Sweet Mother of Ghod, he's channeling Perfect Mikey! Bakula was always, and I do mean always, good for helpful suggestions like this at critical moments, and Phil would (as was his want) grab them with both hands and run with them. We'd think about murder, but it was too much fun to stay angry.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 19, 2016, 07:49:55 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;931632
Well, the current plan would be to use spells to traverse the moat, along with a very small group of specially trained assassins:).

Complications are good, I just don't want to introduce them unless they make sense. I leave the logic of "introduce complications so there's enough challenge" to other Referees;).
OTOH, I also don't want to skip complications that would make sense, so by all means, keep them coming!

BTW, the fire itself is a distraction, and we're going to try and negotiate a legion staying relatively nearby. This way, the Ssu would know who is responsible. With some luck, they wouldn't look for the attackers under their own frontal orifices until it's too late. In the best case scenario, they would be out before the alarms has been sounded.

Did I mention it's a rescue mission, and that there might be Shunned Ones inside that no PC knows anything about:D?

"Sounds like a plan", as we used to say. Let us know what happens, eh? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 20, 2016, 04:04:02 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;931653
I think they'd be really, really upset.

I mean, they use it for both food and as an obstacle, so I think they'd react pretty violently.
So, them pouring out to attack the warriors isn't out of the question, especially if they're disrupting their efforts to extinguish the peat? Excellent, that's exactly what the plan is;)!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;931655
"Sounds like a plan", as we used to say. Let us know what happens, eh? :)
I certainly shall, Uncle, once we play it out:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: DavetheLost on November 20, 2016, 11:47:09 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;931623
Perhaps the overheated pods will explode like pustules of corrosive juices, turning the swamp into a highly-acidic toxic moat and limiting the approaches to their fortress? In which case, the Ssu might just take the good with the bad.

Consider what happens when someone is foolish enough to burn poison ivy... The toxic oils will vaporize and can cause poison ivy reactions inside the lungs and airways, as well as in the eyes, onskin and mucus membranes exposed to the smoke...

Be sure to take into account which way the wind is blowing.

Not introducing a complication for the sake of complication, or screwing over the players. Just considering the natural consequences of their actions.  I am a great believer in the power of natural (unintended) consequences.

Oh, and of course, our friends the Ssu (and the Shunned Ones) might not suffer any ill effects from the smoke.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 20, 2016, 02:15:32 PM
Quote from: DavetheLost;931725
Consider what happens when someone is foolish enough to burn poison ivy... The toxic oils will vaporize and can cause poison ivy reactions inside the lungs and airways, as well as in the eyes, onskin and mucus membranes exposed to the smoke...

Be sure to take into account which way the wind is blowing.

Not introducing a complication for the sake of complication, or screwing over the players. Just considering the natural consequences of their actions.  I am a great believer in the power of natural (unintended) consequences.

Oh, and of course, our friends the Ssu (and the Shunned Ones) might not suffer any ill effects from the smoke.


cool!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 20, 2016, 02:19:24 PM
Quote from: DavetheLost;931725
Consider what happens when someone is foolish enough to burn poison ivy... The toxic oils will vaporize and can cause poison ivy reactions inside the lungs and airways, as well as in the eyes, onskin and mucus membranes exposed to the smoke...

Be sure to take into account which way the wind is blowing.

Not introducing a complication for the sake of complication, or screwing over the players. Just considering the natural consequences of their actions.  I am a great believer in the power of natural (unintended) consequences.

Oh, and of course, our friends the Ssu (and the Shunned Ones) might not suffer any ill effects from the smoke.

Good point, but a PC whose player has gone on national-level chemistry olympiads already made sure to specify "we wear wet cloth masks around our faces":). So I figure they'd have at least some time before the smoke affects them, though I'm trying to research how much.

And burning peat is burning peat, so at least that part will screw, to a degree, any oxygen-breathing specie, with the Ssu very much included there;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 20, 2016, 09:33:51 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;931740
Good point, but a PC whose player has gone on national-level chemistry olympiads already made sure to specify "we wear wet cloth masks around our faces":).

"It's the Festival Week of Zuk'ubuss, the 173rd aspect of Hryhyal, and by Imperial law the wearing of wet cloth masks is forbidden this week."

Now you have a week to think of something else.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 21, 2016, 03:01:59 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;931795
"It's the Festival Week of Zuk'ubuss, the 173rd aspect of Hryhyal, and by Imperial law the wearing of wet cloth masks is forbidden this week."

Now you have a week to think of something else.


But why would I have changed the world in such a wayy, if it wasn't already in my plans:)?

And the same PC managed to procure, well, six masks for work with hazardeous materials, so no amount of smoke would have been a problem. Sometimes being summoned to another Pocket Universe helps. You can ask Chirine who bought that iron, way back when;).
Bottom line from tonight session is, five people went in, five went out. One of them remained behind, dead. And now they know they have problems...
Like, real problems, of the kind and magnitude that normal dethdrugs-selling inimical races wouldn't have been able to cause.
That's despite the rescue operation having been a success:D!

SPOILER (Hover over section below to view.)

So, they managed to get in, managed to orient themselves in the labyrinth of the Red Ssu (yes, there is a reason the ones from Nyemesel's Isles have come). And they found that those Ssu have better technology than they have ever seen in Grey Ssu.
Namely, it seems those Ssu have been vat-growing humans. They have also been teaching them to kill, and to follow any and all instructions of anyone holding a certain ring.
I expected they would have died in the fight next to the vat, unless they really use tactics. Instead, my very first roll for a Ssu sorcerer was a botch, rolled in the open, as always. Of course it was an offensive spell, too!
After I rolled for effect of the botch, the Ssu sorcerer killed quite a few of his own. Then the rescue team only lost one man in the cramped fight.
Of course, they trashed the place, and mostly avoided the Shunned One "project consultants" on their way out, though they aren't out yet.

I'm almost beginning to wonder whether I'm going too easy on them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on November 21, 2016, 07:03:24 AM
"I'm almost beginning to wonder whether I'm going too easy on them."

If they think it is easy, they will likely get sloppy. Self correcting. ;)
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 21, 2016, 07:37:29 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;931847
"I'm almost beginning to wonder whether I'm going too easy on them."

If they think it is easy, they will likely get sloppy. Self correcting. ;)
=

I think that I might be going too easy on them. The players are starting to wonder whether I'm trying to achieve a TPK:).

I'm not, but I'm fine with it happening;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 21, 2016, 03:00:04 PM
If you think you're going too easy and the players are dreading a TPK, sounds like you've hit a good balance.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on November 21, 2016, 04:58:30 PM
Did you ever run into anything like the Ellora or Elephanta  Caves? Locations that weren't built and then covered over but were just carved from the living rock?

And all this talk of the Ssu reminds me- did you ever capture one? or a Hluss? Just to see if you could see what makes them tick, aside from pure Hate?

Also, I know that everyone burns/destroys the Food if they find it growing and cultivating it is a no-no. Can you get in trouble if it is growing on your property without your knowledge? Would an apothecary get in deep water for having a pod for study purposes?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 21, 2016, 06:56:12 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;931917
Did you ever run into anything like the Ellora or Elephanta  Caves? Locations that weren't built and then covered over but were just carved from the living rock?

And all this talk of the Ssu reminds me- did you ever capture one? or a Hluss? Just to see if you could see what makes them tick, aside from pure Hate?

Also, I know that everyone burns/destroys the Food if they find it growing and cultivating it is a no-no. Can you get in trouble if it is growing on your property without your knowledge? Would an apothecary get in deep water for having a pod for study purposes?

Yes, many times; you find sites like this anywhere there's good rock, and people have been living at some point in time. The mountains north and east of Hekellu are full of them, and we did manage to look in at a few during our campaign up there.

No. Usually, between us and them, it was a 'you-are-surprised/you-surprise-them situation, and it was kill or be killed. I don't recall we ever had time to even think about trying to capture one.

No. Just file a report and burn the stuff when the surviving people report it. No, as long as their temple and the Imperium knew about it; file the report, get the permit - pay the bribe / fee, of course - and you're fine. Just don't try growing the stuff in the clanhouse garden; that will get you in trouble.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 21, 2016, 08:24:21 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;931926
Just don't try growing the stuff in the clanhouse garden; that will get you in trouble.

Auntie Birrka wants to talk to you about what happened to her flower garden...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 22, 2016, 08:13:53 AM
Quick follow-up to the "crown jewels" question:

The Foundation says that one of their more distant goals is a Stability companion to Ebon Bindings. Personally, I think that would be a very worthy project, one that has been on fan wish lists for a long time.

But I wonder, is there enough Barker material that could be compiled for this, or is this something where the Foundation would have to make up a bunch of new, original content?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on November 22, 2016, 09:28:13 AM
Have you seen that Dyson's Dodecahedron is doing a new project he is calling My Private Jakalla? He does gorgeous work and has done numerous Tekumel themed maps in the past. Now he is doing a big Tekumel mega-dungeon inspired by Jakalla. Some really neat takes building on the the Good Prefessor's ideas. I believe he plays in James Maliszewski Tekumel game. Good to see new content for Tekumel, and Dyson does good work.
Here are some links:
Main link https://rpgcharacters.wordpress.com/maps/my-private-jakalla/ (https://rpgcharacters.wordpress.com/maps/my-private-jakalla/)

https://plus.google.com/u/0/+DysonLogos/posts/XzxUKfYTWmf?sfc=true (https://plus.google.com/u/0/+DysonLogos/posts/XzxUKfYTWmf?sfc=true)
https://plus.google.com/u/0/+DysonLogos/posts/1gdUw7LV5rW?sfc=true (https://plus.google.com/u/0/+DysonLogos/posts/1gdUw7LV5rW?sfc=true)


Quick modeling question- have you fooled around with a 3d printer at all? I know they are becoming rather big in the terrain world, with some amazing stuff being produced. Anything catch your eye?


Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;931933
Auntie Birrka wants to talk to you about what happened to her flower garden...

Sounds like another Cause of Death - Tekumel
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 22, 2016, 05:48:58 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;931981
Quick follow-up to the "crown jewels" question:

The Foundation says that one of their more distant goals is a Stability companion to Ebon Bindings. Personally, I think that would be a very worthy project, one that has been on fan wish lists for a long time.

But I wonder, is there enough Barker material that could be compiled for this, or is this something where the Foundation would have to make up a bunch of new, original content?

Um, okay; let me see if I can provide a useful answer.

The 'change' / 'chaos' emphasis in Phil's campaign comes from the reality that just about all of his PCs in his games were of that alignment; Gronan, was very unusual, what with being Stability, and was unique for something like six-eight years of game play. Phil didn't get many Stability players, so the questions and answers that provided so much of his inspiration wasn't there for most of the time. 'White Bindings', perforce, could be done by combing through all of the extant documents to find what few bits - like the Belkhanu 'demons' in S&G - there are, as well as going through the Blue Room archives for more such material. The audio tapes might help; one of the interviewers played a priest of Belkhanu for many years, so there's something like three hours of 'new' (1980s) material there.

Could it be done? Probably, but my gut feeling - without doing the research myself - is that it might be a little thin on the ground. If I were the one commissioning it, I'd want to get a very good writer to do it - they would have to be up to 'Ebon Bindings' standards.

Basically, if you want my honest answer, we won't know until somebody commits to the time and effort to do it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 22, 2016, 06:19:39 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;931986
Have you seen that Dyson's Dodecahedron is doing a new project he is calling My Private Jakalla? He does gorgeous work and has done numerous Tekumel themed maps in the past. Now he is doing a big Tekumel mega-dungeon inspired by Jakalla. Some really neat takes building on the the Good Prefessor's ideas. I believe he plays in James Maliszewski Tekumel game. Good to see new content for Tekumel, and Dyson does good work.
Here are some links:
Main link https://rpgcharacters.wordpress.com/maps/my-private-jakalla/ (https://rpgcharacters.wordpress.com/maps/my-private-jakalla/)

https://plus.google.com/u/0/+DysonLogos/posts/XzxUKfYTWmf?sfc=true (https://plus.google.com/u/0/+DysonLogos/posts/XzxUKfYTWmf?sfc=true)
https://plus.google.com/u/0/+DysonLogos/posts/1gdUw7LV5rW?sfc=true (https://plus.google.com/u/0/+DysonLogos/posts/1gdUw7LV5rW?sfc=true)
***
Quick modeling question- have you fooled around with a 3d printer at all? I know they are becoming rather big in the terrain world, with some amazing stuff being produced. Anything catch your eye?
***
Sounds like another Cause of Death - Tekumel

Yes, I have, and yes, it's good. This kind of thing is what's really needed for Tekumel, and I'm very happy to see it.

I will admit to it; I'm spoiled. I have Phil's Jakalla, with all the notes and maps, and I have it in a digital version that I use in games. (My Missus was doing an updated version, from Phil's notes, fixing his handwriting and map symbols.) I have a Sony 40" in the game room, and I just bring the maps up when I need them. Likewise, I projected this on the wall for my Gary Con game two years ago - having an LCD projector makes stuff like this easy - and it seemed to help. Ask Gronan what he thought about it; he was in the game.
***
No; I lack the skills to do anything like this. I do have a friend who is a professional at it, though, and he's kind enough to do things for me from time to time. Simply amazing stuff, and I have really enjoyed working with him to make things appear that I had been dreaming of for forty years. It's like with Mr. Lucas and his films; the technology has finally caught up with Phil's vision of what was in his world.
***
Precisely! :)

Which is why we tended to be very careful players, over the years... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 22, 2016, 07:58:03 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932055
Um, okay; let me see if I can provide a useful answer.

The 'change' / 'chaos' emphasis in Phil's campaign comes from the reality that just about all of his PCs in his games were of that alignment; Gronan, was very unusual, what with being Stability, and was unique for something like six-eight years of game play. Phil didn't get many Stability players, so the questions and answers that provided so much of his inspiration wasn't there for most of the time. 'White Bindings', perforce, could be done by combing through all of the extant documents to find what few bits - like the Belkhanu 'demons' in S&G - there are, as well as going through the Blue Room archives for more such material. The audio tapes might help; one of the interviewers played a priest of Belkhanu for many years, so there's something like three hours of 'new' (1980s) material there.

Could it be done? Probably, but my gut feeling - without doing the research myself - is that it might be a little thin on the ground. If I were the one commissioning it, I'd want to get a very good writer to do it - they would have to be up to 'Ebon Bindings' standards.

Basically, if you want my honest answer, we won't know until somebody commits to the time and effort to do it.


Thanks. Yes that was my sense, that there are snippets but they would add up to the "Post-It Note of Ivory Bindings." Whereas a really worthwhile "companion-work" would require a dumpload of new ideas. Whether well-done or not,  I suspect we're talking new content here
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 22, 2016, 08:31:11 PM
And yes about the "very good writer." Ivory Bindings, or Crystal Bindings, whatever, would have to live up to Ebon Bindings or go down in flames. Especially if it was mostly new content and lacked the authority of received wisdom from the Professor, it would have to be better than good.

And Ebon Bindings is the Professor at his most immersive, erudite, and masterful. That would be a damn tough act to follow
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 23, 2016, 06:06:10 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;932062
Thanks. Yes that was my sense, that there are snippets but they would add up to the "Post-It Note of Ivory Bindings." Whereas a really worthwhile "companion-work" would require a dumpload of new ideas. Whether well-done or not,  I suspect we're talking new content here

I'd have to say that we'd have to really get into the archives to really be able to tell. Phil was, it has to be admitted, not a very good 'housekeeper' with his files - that was my job, after all. What we we have to deal with is a huge mass of unindexed and unlabeled materials, some of it over sixty years old, and not written to any particular plan. Tekumel grew almost organically, and we wound up simply assigning 'find numbers' to everything in the collections and taking 'field notes' on what the item was and what is was about. My Missus then spent several years transferring everything into digital formats, as a lot of the hard copies were in pretty bad shape, what with water damage and such.

There is a lot of data; we have estimated over 28,000 page-equivalents worth. A lot of it is small, one to three page little 'monographs' that Phil did because he was interested in that subject at that moment in time and a lot of that is already up on DriveThruRPG for purchase. My job began and ended at the data collection and preservation - I'm an archivist, after all, and nothing more.  What will happen to that data is not my province; I'm out of that side of the thing, and very glad to be out of it. It was a long, hard, expensive and quite thankless task that I put well over thirty years into.

So, can the book be written from Phil's fragments? Yes, but it's going to take a lot of work.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 23, 2016, 06:09:18 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;932064
And yes about the "very good writer." Ivory Bindings, or Crystal Bindings, whatever, would have to live up to Ebon Bindings or go down in flames. Especially if it was mostly new content and lacked the authority of received wisdom from the Professor, it would have to be better than good.

And Ebon Bindings is the Professor at his most immersive, erudite, and masterful. That would be a damn tough act to follow

Especially considering what source materials in his personal collection of Indo-Persian medieval manuscripts and Ancient Egyptian texts that he had. This was literally a university-quality library; the gentleman who eventually bought it donated it to found a university library - rather like with Phil and the Ames Library at the U of MN.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 23, 2016, 08:16:39 PM
Sounds like a major undertaking. Especially compared to reformatting (or just scanning) completed works.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 23, 2016, 09:02:19 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;932247
Sounds like a major undertaking. Especially compared to reformatting (or just scanning) completed works.

Agreed! It took the Missus, assisted by Third and Fourth Daughters, the better part of two years just to copy / scan. It took another two years to do the same with what was in my personal collection, which covered a lot of the holes in Phil's where he hadn't gotten a copy of something over the years. At the moment, the digital version of the archive is up to somewhere around 62 to 64 Gigabytes of data. A big part of my work over the past four years has been to simply open a file, look at the text, and put it in a folder about that subject. (Basically the filing system used by Dr. R. V. Jones, in his work during WWII. Churchill liked it, and it does work.) Indexing will follow. I favor the Pitt-Rivers methodology, where everything pertaining to a subject is organized by that subject in chronological order. Yes, you do wind up with duplicate texts in different folders, but that is the way Phil worked.

Any suggestions? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 23, 2016, 09:18:44 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932254
Agreed! It took the Missus, assisted by Third and Fourth Daughters, the better part of two years just to copy / scan. It took another two years to do the same with what was in my personal collection, which covered a lot of the holes in Phil's where he hadn't gotten a copy of something over the years. At the moment, the digital version of the archive is up to somewhere around 62 to 64 Gigabytes of data. A big part of my work over the past four years has been to simply open a file, look at the text, and put it in a folder about that subject. (Basically the filing system used by Dr. R. V. Jones, in his work during WWII. Churchill liked it, and it does work.) Indexing will follow. I favor the Pitt-Rivers methodology, where everything pertaining to a subject is organized by that subject in chronological order. Yes, you do wind up with duplicate texts in different folders, but that is the way Phil worked.

Any suggestions? :)

No, not at all, that wasn't the comparison I meant to draw. What I meant was that compiling a new work like Ivory Bindings would be a major undertaking for the Foundation, considering that until now they have played it safe and limited their ambitions to marketing reformats or scans of the Professor's own finished works.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 23, 2016, 09:25:21 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932254
Agreed! It took the Missus, assisted by Third and Fourth Daughters, the better part of two years just to copy / scan. It took another two years to do the same with what was in my personal collection, which covered a lot of the holes in Phil's where he hadn't gotten a copy of something over the years. At the moment, the digital version of the archive is up to somewhere around 62 to 64 Gigabytes of data. A big part of my work over the past four years has been to simply open a file, look at the text, and put it in a folder about that subject. (Basically the filing system used by Dr. R. V. Jones, in his work during WWII. Churchill liked it, and it does work.) Indexing will follow. I favor the Pitt-Rivers methodology, where everything pertaining to a subject is organized by that subject in chronological order. Yes, you do wind up with duplicate texts in different folders, but that is the way Phil worked.

Any suggestions? :)

Given the scope you are describing, even the index would be intimidating. Are the files all in searchable formats? If they were all one one drive, could you just search the whole archive for "demon" for example?

Having asked that, it occurs to me that many of the files are probably image scans of handwritten text etc. and not searchable at all, is that so?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 23, 2016, 11:35:39 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;932256
No, not at all, that wasn't the comparison I meant to draw. What I meant was that compiling a new work like Ivory Bindings would be a major undertaking for the Foundation, considering that until now they have played it safe and limited their ambitions to marketing reformats or scans of the Professor's own finished works.

Oh, I see what you mean. Yes, I agree. And I would have to say that I am not surprised by this; their constant complaint to me during the year I was under contract to them was about how much work it all was - Tekumel was going to have to be somebody's full-time job, and they just could not see how I managed it in the 1980s. Tekumel is going to be a heck of a lot of work to make useful: I'd been saying that for decades, and nobody wanted to believe me.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 23, 2016, 11:40:57 PM
You managed it by 1) working your ass off and 2) being enthusiastic enough to get other people enthusiastic too, and they helped.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 23, 2016, 11:43:14 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;932258
Given the scope you are describing, even the index would be intimidating. Are the files all in searchable formats? If they were all one one drive, could you just search the whole archive for "demon" for example?

Having asked that, it occurs to me that many of the files are probably image scans of handwritten text etc. and not searchable at all, is that so?

Yes; a good friend who knows software has come up with a way to search the files. I am not a software expert; all I know is that when you ask the program for something, it tells you everything that Phil said or wrote on the subject. The big problem is the artwork; we have literally hundreds of pieces of art, all of which needs to be identified, sorted, and labelled. Think of it as being handed the Library of Congress, and told to come up with an index from scratch without knowing what a lot of the books actually are.

Yes, a lot of it are the notes and sketches that Phil did for me at the game table. (*) The rule was that I got a copy, and he got the original. We also have a lot of unpublished stuff in hard copy form, like the 1987 'Who's Who' lists. It's doable; it's just going to take time and be - quite frankly - a labor of love.

(*) EDIT: I should have also said that this material includes photos, video tapes, and audio tapes  as well. Sorry.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 23, 2016, 11:53:54 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932272
You managed it by 1) working your ass off and 2) being enthusiastic enough to get other people enthusiastic too, and they helped.


True, true; remember how Phil used to call me 'the Tom Sawyer' of Tekumel? He never could understand the difference between working for someone, and working with someone. When you and I ventured forth to flog the merchandise, we had a lot of fun and some pretty good times; we all worked with each other, not for me. I don't think Phil ever understood that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 23, 2016, 11:57:49 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;932256
No, not at all, that wasn't the comparison I meant to draw. What I meant was that compiling a new work like Ivory Bindings would be a major undertaking for the Foundation, considering that until now they have played it safe and limited their ambitions to marketing reformats or scans of the Professor's own finished works.


I may be anticipating your next question, but yes, I did offer a copy of my archives to the Foundation for their use. They were not interested, they told me.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2016, 12:15:58 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932272
You managed it by 1) working your ass off and 2) being enthusiastic enough to get other people enthusiastic too, and they helped.


Was your good lady there the night Phil announced his plans for our doing a WorldCon masquerade presentation? It would have been the early fall of '86, after the Pettingers took "Best in Show' with the Lords of Stability. (They took another in 1996 with the Lords of Change, too.) We got some nice cookies in 1988, too...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 24, 2016, 07:02:50 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932274
Yes; a good friend who knows software has come up with a way to search the files. I am not a software expert; all I know is that when you ask the program for something, it tells you everything that Phil said or wrote on the subject. The big problem is the artwork; we have literally hundreds of pieces of art, all of which needs to be identified, sorted, and labelled. Think of it as being handed the Library of Congress, and told to come up with an index from scratch without knowing what a lot of the books actually are.

Yes, a lot of it are the notes and sketches that Phil did for me at the game table. (*) The rule was that I got a copy, and he got the original. We also have a lot of unpublished stuff in hard copy form, like the 1987 'Who's Who' lists. It's doable; it's just going to take time and be - quite frankly - a labor of love.

(*) EDIT: I should have also said that this material includes photos, video tapes, and audio tapes  as well. Sorry.

The thing that concerns me about an index is that if you take a small self- contained piece like, say The Temple of Sarku article, it probably has scores or even a couple of hundred terms that would qualify as index entries. Multiply that by the whole archive, and you end up with a task that may not be practical. At that point you are researching the collection, not just describing it, and I think the priority should be to make it manageable and searchable for future research, rather than researching it in detail from the get-go.

If it was me, I would treat it like a museum collection. Catalogue it, rather than indexing it, and in fact, I would break it up into several collections (searchable digital vs maps and sketches vs photographs vs documents). Just like a museum would: a catalogue of van Goghs paintings would be separate from the catalogue of his written correspondence, because they have different cataloguing requirements.

You know, in my work I finish the average season with thousands of photographs, pieces of video, tens of thousands of objects, hand-drawn maps, field notes and sketches, a variety of other records, all of which has to be ordered and catalogued in a matter of months so that it can all be searched, consulted and drawn together to complete a coherent report within a year. Yes, we have people working full-time on this as we speak, it's a big job.

You don't have that luxury. But I might have some ideas for you on cataloguing and data management. We can discuss via email if you like.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on November 24, 2016, 09:28:44 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932277
I may be anticipating your next question, but yes, I did offer a copy of my archives to the Foundation for their use. They were not interested, they told me.

Did you get the feeling it was that they were actually not interested or just concerned that they would owe you compensation for anything they profited from?
I get the feeling that sharing it not something they do easily. Just a guess of course, as I have no direct knowledge.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 24, 2016, 10:20:56 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;932064
And yes about the "very good writer." Ivory Bindings, or Crystal Bindings, whatever, would have to live up to Ebon Bindings or go down in flames. Especially if it was mostly new content and lacked the authority of received wisdom from the Professor, it would have to be better than good.

And Ebon Bindings is the Professor at his most immersive, erudite, and masterful. That would be a damn tough act to follow

I'm starting to suspect that my random demons table isn't really adequate:D.

(Which I knew from the get go, make no mistake:)).
Then again, it's an example of what we all have to do when dealing with Tekumel. We can't get the full picture in the Professor's head, for legal and logistical reasons. We'll just have to settle for "good enough", and remember that "the best is enemy of the good";).

And some day, we might get access to those files. Who knows?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;932232
Especially considering what source materials in his personal collection of Indo-Persian medieval manuscripts and Ancient Egyptian texts that he had. This was literally a university-quality library; the gentleman who eventually bought it donated it to found a university library - rather like with Phil and the Ames Library at the U of MN.

No doubt Phil Barker would have approved!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;932254
Agreed! It took the Missus, assisted by Third and Fourth Daughters, the better part of two years just to copy / scan. It took another two years to do the same with what was in my personal collection, which covered a lot of the holes in Phil's where he hadn't gotten a copy of something over the years. At the moment, the digital version of the archive is up to somewhere around 62 to 64 Gigabytes of data. A big part of my work over the past four years has been to simply open a file, look at the text, and put it in a folder about that subject. (Basically the filing system used by Dr. R. V. Jones, in his work during WWII. Churchill liked it, and it does work.) Indexing will follow. I favor the Pitt-Rivers methodology, where everything pertaining to a subject is organized by that subject in chronological order. Yes, you do wind up with duplicate texts in different folders, but that is the way Phil worked.

Any suggestions? :)

First, I thought you mean 60+ Gigabytes of text, and almost fainted:D.
Then I remembered you have video and audio as well, and felt better;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;932277
I may be anticipating your next question, but yes, I did offer a copy of my archives to the Foundation for their use. They were not interested, they told me.

...maybe you don't want to speculate about their motives, but I really can't imagine them (unless you wanted them to pay for the scanning - but knowing you, I suspect that wasn't the case:p).
I mean, where's the hurt in having a more complete digital archive? I've got more books and movies than that for my hobbies on my hard drives.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 24, 2016, 10:31:10 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;932338
I'm starting to suspect that my random demons table isn't really adequate:D.

(Which I knew from the get go, make no mistake:)).

I rather liked your demon generator. As I recall, you have it on a blog? Could you repost the link please? I would like to see it again.

The thing about equalling Ebon Bindings is, cool sharetlyal are very very important, but it is also the sorcerous context, anecdotes and evocative text that make Ebon Bindings so special. Hard to match the Professor there.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 24, 2016, 10:57:41 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;932341
I rather liked your demon generator. As I recall, you have it on a blog? Could you repost the link please? I would like to see it again.

The thing about equalling Ebon Bindings is, cool sharetlyal are very very important, but it is also the sorcerous context, anecdotes and evocative text that make Ebon Bindings so special. Hard to match the Professor there.

The link is on my blog (http://storiescharactersandsystemsinrpgs.blogspot.bg/2016/03/binding-books-for-tekumelcreate-your.html), yes:).

And yes, the details of the summoning rites are my bane as well. I need to read more anthropology studies;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2016, 11:44:12 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;932318
The thing that concerns me about an index is that if you take a small self- contained piece like, say The Temple of Sarku article, it probably has scores or even a couple of hundred terms that would qualify as index entries. Multiply that by the whole archive, and you end up with a task that may not be practical. At that point you are researching the collection, not just describing it, and I think the priority should be to make it manageable and searchable for future research, rather than researching it in detail from the get-go.

If it was me, I would treat it like a museum collection. Catalogue it, rather than indexing it, and in fact, I would break it up into several collections (searchable digital vs maps and sketches vs photographs vs documents). Just like a museum would: a catalogue of van Goghs paintings would be separate from the catalogue of his written correspondence, because they have different cataloguing requirements.

You know, in my work I finish the average season with thousands of photographs, pieces of video, tens of thousands of objects, hand-drawn maps, field notes and sketches, a variety of other records, all of which has to be ordered and catalogued in a matter of months so that it can all be searched, consulted and drawn together to complete a coherent report within a year. Yes, we have people working full-time on this as we speak, it's a big job.

You don't have that luxury. But I might have some ideas for you on cataloguing and data management. We can discuss via email if you like.

I would really appreciate that! My only -and admittedly limited - experience with this comes from a fascination with Howard Carter's excavations, and from watching a lot of "Time Team". My software expert has done the work to make the actual indexing and cataloging work - the computer replaces the clerks, as it were. We had just gotten to the very basics of what a 'museum' might be and how it might work when I had my brain bleed and First Daughter had First Grandson. Everything;s been on hold since then, and in a holding pattern.

One example of this 'museum' approach has been the mannequins; we read that these are the best way to display costumes, to the Missus (The Queen Of The Internet) got us ten at very good prices.

I can send you what we've got for draft documents on this. Drop me an e-mil, if you could.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 24, 2016, 11:47:10 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;932343
The link is on my blog (http://storiescharactersandsystemsinrpgs.blogspot.bg/2016/03/binding-books-for-tekumelcreate-your.html), yes:).

And yes, the details of the summoning rites are my bane as well. I need to read more anthropology studies;).

Thank you! Gonna add your blog to my own (http://dualdais.blogspot.ca) blog list so I don't forget the link again!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 24, 2016, 11:54:28 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932354
I would really appreciate that! My only -and admittedly limited - experience with this comes from a fascination with Howard Carter's excavations, and from watching a lot of "Time Team". My software expert has done the work to make the actual indexing and cataloging work - the computer replaces the clerks, as it were. We had just gotten to the very basics of what a 'museum' might be and how it might work when I had my brain bleed and First Daughter had First Grandson. Everything;s been on hold since then, and in a holding pattern.

One example of this 'museum' approach has been the mannequins; we read that these are the best way to display costumes, to the Missus (The Queen Of The Internet) got us ten at very good prices.

I can send you what we've got for draft documents on this. Drop me an e-mil, if you could.

Will do, it will be later in the day. The key I think is to see the catalogue as a means not an end. Make no mistake, it is a tedious job, but the easier it can be made, the sooner it gets done, and from then on researching the archives can be more of a joy and less of a chore
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2016, 12:04:30 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;932331
Did you get the feeling it was that they were actually not interested or just concerned that they would owe you compensation for anything they profited from?
I get the feeling that sharing it not something they do easily. Just a guess of course, as I have no direct knowledge.
=

Neither, I think; it seems to be all about being willing to share the stage.

My original deal, as contracted archivist, was that we would make a digital back-up copy of all of Phil's files as a safety precaution against loss or accident. My 'fee' was that I got a copy of all the files, with the understanding that I do not have publication rights - which I don't want - and that I have the files to merge with mine for research purposes. I supposedly have the most complete set of Tekumel files on the planet, after I merged my collection with Phil's. At one point, I had actually co-located a lot of my collection with Phil's, as I thought that there would be a lot of depth to the collections that way, but that ended in October of 2012. When my contract ended in November, 2012, they made no effort to contact me re the files; when I specifically offered the files to them in 2015, I got a polite 'don't call us, we'll call you' sort of blow-off. Since then, mutual friends have been told that "I am impossible to work with" and not welcome in the Tekumel community. At one point (in 2014), the story was being told that I had destroyed the Temple of Vimuhla model, and that the Foundation could not publish anything because my daughter had destroyed Phil's data files.

I think the relationship soured when I refused to lie for them, and wound not manufacture the data to support their idea that Gary and Dave stole the idea for RPGs from Phil. It's nonsense, but they seem to want to float the notion in order to sell a book on the history or RPGs or something.

There also seems to be a very real fear that making Phil's files available for study will mean that people might see information from him about his world that might contradict when these same people have been saying is Phil's Tekumel since the 1990s. I'm surprised by that; me, I say let people have the data and make up their own minds. My definition of 'canon' - a word that I hate - is anything Phil wrote or said, coupled with what he did in his campaigns. I think that's a pretty broad canvas for people to play in and and with. Add in the current racial, sexual, and political biases being pushed on people, and you get a very murky situation.

So, everything is in the proverbial deep-freeze, and I continue to potter along with my studies. Rather like a monk in his cloister, up on one of those peaks at Mount Athos...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2016, 12:10:01 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;932338

First, I thought you mean 60+ Gigabytes of text, and almost fainted:D.
Then I remembered you have video and audio as well, and felt better;).

...maybe you don't want to speculate about their motives, but I really can't imagine them (unless you wanted them to pay for the scanning - but knowing you, I suspect that wasn't the case:p).
I mean, where's the hurt in having a more complete digital archive? I've got more books and movies than that for my hobbies on my hard drives.


There's about 32+ Gb of texts, and about 32+ Gb of images of maps and texts. The photos, videos, and audio tapes would add up to another 40 GB or so of materials. The physical archives occupy 16 running feet of shelves, the miniatures reference collection another 60+ feet of shelves, and the artifacts about six square meters of floor space - I have a complete set of typical Tsolyani room furniture; Chirine owns a lot of stuff, from mats to astrolabes...

Please see my reply to Zirunel on this subject.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2016, 12:11:53 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;932356
Will do, it will be later in the day. The key I think is to see the catalogue as a means not an end. Make no mistake, it is a tedious job, but the easier it can be made, the sooner it gets done, and from then on researching the archives can be more of a joy and less of a chore

No problem; I'm on a four-day holiday. I'll be here.

Agreed. I know my way around the collection, due to my memory abilities, but for anyone else it's a huge mess.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 24, 2016, 01:38:37 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;932355
Thank you! Gonna add your blog to my own (http://dualdais.blogspot.ca) blog list so I don't forget the link again!

I'll add you as well, when I get home. I can't access my blog from here, so found my own blog via Google:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;932357

There also seems to be a very real fear that making Phil's files available for study will mean that people might see information from him about his world that might contradict when these same people have been saying is Phil's Tekumel since the 1990s. I'm surprised by that; me, I say let people have the data and make up their own minds. My definition of 'canon' - a word that I hate - is anything Phil wrote or said, coupled with what he did in his campaigns. I think that's a pretty broad canvas for people to play in and and with. Add in the current racial, sexual, and political biases being pushed on people, and you get a very murky situation.

"Information wants to free". (AFAICT, that's the Rule #1 of Cyberpunk that I like quoting. Rule #2 is "The Street Finds Its Own Uses For Things", and I like to apply it without quoting).

Or as an ancient Bulgarian author said centuries ago, "if you see in a book an inscription not to loan it, and not to let others read it, throw this book away, for it is useless indeed" (translation mine). Given that this is from the time when books were expensive...nothing new under the sun, eh:)?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;932358
There's about 32+ Gb of texts, and about 32+ Gb of images of maps and texts. The photos, videos, and audio tapes would add up to another 40 GB or so of materials. The physical archives occupy 16 running feet of shelves, the miniatures reference collection another 60+ feet of shelves, and the artifacts about six square meters of floor space - I have a complete set of typical Tsolyani room furniture; Chirine owns a lot of stuff, from mats to astrolabes...

Please see my reply to Zirunel on this subject.

I'm glad it's in digital format.
I almost can't imagine dealing with 32 Gb of text without the Search function.

Or rather, I can imagine it quite clearly - my own books at home are way more than 16 feets of shelves...books are one thing I don't compromise on (though I send the books I don't plan revisiting soon to my country home, where I've got even more shelves).
And I know from experience that it's much slower to search without the Search function:D!

BTW, Uncle, you don't need the help of your software-minded friend, or rather, no need to wait for it...:p
I'm pretty sure that the free OS Linux already does what you're looking for about the index, meaning it searches in the text of files and not only in the titles.
(And unlike Windows 10 it's not a Trojan with the MS logo:D).
Anyway, just install the text files on a computer running with Linux. That's the basic search function (and here is a command string (http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16956810/how-to-find-all-files-containing-specific-text-on-linux) in case it doesn't work for some reason;)).
Search by words or phrases, get a list of files containing them.
Hope that helps:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 24, 2016, 01:57:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932279
Was your good lady there the night Phil announced his plans for our doing a WorldCon masquerade presentation? It would have been the early fall of '86, after the Pettingers took "Best in Show' with the Lords of Stability. (They took another in 1996 with the Lords of Change, too.) We got some nice cookies in 1988, too...

Wow, I missed that.  Would have been the beginning of my second year of grad school.

I never heard of the Pettingers presentations till now.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 24, 2016, 02:03:40 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932357
I think the relationship soured when I refused to lie for them, and wound not manufacture the data to support their idea that Gary and Dave stole the idea for RPGs from Phil.

Buh?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on November 24, 2016, 02:46:12 PM
Wow, just wow, that's just low and ridiculous.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2016, 02:49:45 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;932378
I'm glad it's in digital format.
I almost can't imagine dealing with 32 Gb of text without the Search function.

Or rather, I can imagine it quite clearly - my own books at home are way more than 16 feets of shelves...books are one thing I don't compromise on (though I send the books I don't plan revisiting soon to my country home, where I've got even more shelves).
And I know from experience that it's much slower to search without the Search function:D!

BTW, Uncle, you don't need the help of your software-minded friend, or rather, no need to wait for it...:p
I'm pretty sure that the free OS Linux already does what you're looking for about the index, meaning it searches in the text of files and not only in the titles.
(And unlike Windows 10 it's not a Trojan with the MS logo:D).
Anyway, just install the text files on a computer running with Linux. That's the basic search function (and here is a command string (http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16956810/how-to-find-all-files-containing-specific-text-on-linux) in case it doesn't work for some reason;)).
Search by words or phrases, get a list of files containing them.
Hope that helps:D!

So am I; the Missus and the girls worked very hard to make it happen.

I personally don't need an index or catalog; it's all in my head, which - if you asked me - is a lousy place to keep it. As I mentioned, there was very little in Phil's files that I hadn't seen, usually as it was being created. What I'm concerned about is anything happening to me - like my brain bleed four years ago. Which is why I would have settled for anything up to and including total paralysis if the memory functions were still good.

We're way outside my skill set here. We are Mac-based here at the house, and don't have either the hardware or software that you mention.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2016, 02:52:35 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932383
Wow, I missed that.  Would have been the beginning of my second year of grad school.

I never heard of the Pettingers presentations till now.

After "Man of Gold" came out, Pierre and Sandy contacted Phil with an eye to doing a costume presentation. He did them lovely sketches of aspects of the gods, and they built the Lords of Stability - and won. Did the same thing about a decade later with Change; I have both the drawings and the photos of the finished product, as well as videos of their presentations. Chirine and friends did well in '88, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 24, 2016, 02:58:08 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932387
So am I; the Missus and the girls worked very hard to make it happen.

I personally don't need an index or catalog; it's all in my head, which - if you asked me - is a lousy place to keep it. As I mentioned, there was very little in Phil's files that I hadn't seen, usually as it was being created. What I'm concerned about is anything happening to me - like my brain bleed four years ago. Which is why I would have settled for anything up to and including total paralysis if the memory functions were still good.

We're way outside my skill set here. We are Mac-based here at the house, and don't have either the hardware or software that you mention.
Any computer that has at least 50 Gb of memory would do, which means almost any old machine can do it, and Linux is free to download:).

Granted, since you have an index in your head and you're the only people with access to that information, you don't really need it at the moment;)!
May you not need it for 10 000 years yet!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2016, 03:14:36 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932384
Buh?

Late one night in October of 2014, I'm on the phone with you-know-who, who's doing his regular weep-oh-wail-nobody-likes-me-everybody-hates-me-how-did-you do-it-all-back-in-the-day-and-please-oh-please-won't-you-run-the-Foundation-for-me-oh-woe-is-me call, when he unlimbers the notion that Phil actually created the concept of the RPG, and those cads Dave and Gary stole it from him to create their little D&D thing. I found this pretty bizarre, as he'd been working on a book about the early days of RPGs with Dave, and had told me that he was Dave's 'special friend', just like he was with Phil and other famous people we both know. So, I knew he knew better then this, and I reminded him of this as well as the existence of Jon Peterson's mammoth "Playing at the World"; the historical record just doesn't support the idea. I also pointed out the existence of "Beyond This Point Be Dragons", which Keith Daluhn found in a box of Phil's early gaming papers. The idea just won't float; all the facts and information says no.

The response was "If you were loyal to me and Tekumel, you'd find the information to back me up!" and I was also told never to speak to Jon Peterson or to give him any information. My response was to point out that he was telling me to lie for him, and that I would not do so. I told him that if he needed to have people like that working for him in the Foundation, then I was not interested in doing so; I gave him thirty days' notice of my intention of not renewing my dollar-a-year contract and did so on November 14th. I did one final inventory of Phil's collection, including photos of all of his miniatures, cleared all of the Missus' and my stuff out of the office, and returned the keys; we returned all of the Barker Estate items that the Missus had been working on here at the house to Ambereen on December 8th, and that was that. (Aside from having to work really hard to get the $516 that they'd run up on their tab with us; that took a while, and some lawyer action.)

I'd never gotten a formal contract like I'd requested, spelling out my duties and responsibilities, never got the confidentiality agreement that was discussed; I was told to write them up myself, never mind the conflict-of-interest involved.

I am still baffled by it all. I had genuinely thought that they had grown up since their antics of the 1990s.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2016, 03:19:40 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;932390
Any computer that has at least 50 Gb of memory would do, which means almost any old machine can do it, and Linux is free to download:).

Granted, since you have an index in your head and you're the only people with access to that information, you don't really need it at the moment;)!
May you not need it for 10 000 years yet!

I'm sorry, I don't have that technology, nor can I afford it or operate it. The MacBook I work on has 2Gb of memory, with about 10 Gb in the hard drive. All of the data here at the house is on separate hard drives, thumb drives, CD-R, and hard copy.

True, sad to say, and thank you for the kind words. I do look both ways when crossing the street, and am very, very careful with power tools... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2016, 03:20:37 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;932386
Wow, just wow, that's just low and ridiculous.

Welcome to my life! And people wonder why I'm pretty much a recluse... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on November 24, 2016, 03:44:06 PM
Chirine,

What miniatures would you recommend as suitable proxies for Shunned Ones? Also in PoS the Shunned Ones have some type of hound. Any information on what this thing is called and if it has any specific attacks or ability? Thank you.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2016, 03:52:45 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;932396
Chirine,

What miniatures would you recommend as suitable proxies for Shunned Ones? Also in PoS the Shunned Ones have some type of hound. Any information on what this thing is called and if it has any specific attacks or ability? Thank you.

Shemek.


I use the Shunned Ones from David Allen Designs - contact Howard Fielding from the Tekumel Project, as he may stock these. I am personally very fond of the compressed-air spigot mortar, as it's just the thing to discourage those pesky player-characters. Otherwise, West Wind made some kind of 'sand djinn' that look the part; I have some of them, as well. My original Shunned Ones were Minifigs SF aliens, now very (and I do mean very!) long out of production.

Hrugga asked about this beast as well; no data, aside from the quick mention in PoS. I use various animals for this critter.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on November 24, 2016, 04:19:42 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932401
I use the Shunned Ones from David Allen Designs - contact Howard Fielding from the Tekumel Project, as he may stock these. I am personally very fond of the compressed-air spigot mortar, as it's just the thing to discourage those pesky player-characters. Otherwise, West Wind made some kind of 'sand djinn' that look the part; I have some of them, as well. My original Shunned Ones were Minifigs SF aliens, now very (and I do mean very!) long out of production.

Hrugga asked about this beast as well; no data, aside from the quick mention in PoS. I use various animals for this critter.

Thank you sir. Some good leads there I'll follow up on. I forgot that Hrugga asked this a while back. For the meantime I'll keep using my cardboard minis until I can get a 3D one.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2016, 05:28:00 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;932406
Thank you sir. Some good leads there I'll follow up on. I forgot that Hrugga asked this a while back. For the meantime I'll keep using my cardboard minis until I can get a 3D one.

Shemek.

Happy to help! I don't know what the status is on any of this stuff, so ask Howard. David is an old friend from the 1980s, who loves Tekumel miniatures as much as I do and is in the happy position - like Howard himself, bless him - of being able to do something about it. We trade ideas a lot, and it's great fun to see what he comes up with.

Agreed about the cardboard minis, too; I used some cardstock Swamp folk for years, and also a huge set of wonderful Hlyss - Talisanta's artwork printed out on clear acetate in color, and based up to attack our ship. Very effective to create a massive - and scary! - horde, I thought.

I forget - did she also do Shunned Ones in her wonderful set?
Title: Thanksgiving project...
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2016, 05:32:54 PM
I'm waiting for the Missus' kaika to be done, so I dug out the Sakbe road set I did for the Battle of Anch'ke; I'm making a storage / travel crate for it, and trimming it down to my standard 120" table length - it's 140", in three sections, at the moment.

Or, maybe I'll leave it alone, and just do the crate. Castle Tilketl has one; first thing I did for that model...

Yum! Yum! Roast kaika with all the trimmings, just like Granny ba Kal used to make in the village! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 24, 2016, 07:10:24 PM
"May you heartily stuff yourself until you are about to be sick," he said, giving the traditional well wish before a feast.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 24, 2016, 07:12:27 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932393
Welcome to my life! And people wonder why I'm pretty much a recluse... :)

Sigh.  Sigh, sigh, sigh.

Considering Phil left a trail of documentation in his letters to various wargame magazines...

... and for that matter the fact that Dave T., Moose, and Olav are all still around and remember playing D&D with Phil with me reffing, and the creation of the green bound ditto sets...

Oy gevalt, as my dear Yiddish granny used to say.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 24, 2016, 07:16:16 PM
"compressed air spigot mortar" -- All things considered I'm just as glad Phil never turned serious attention to modernistic/SF weaponry.  The stuff he DID come up with was bad enough.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2016, 07:58:18 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932441
"May you heartily stuff yourself until you are about to be sick," he said, giving the traditional well wish before a feast.

Gosh, Master Frito!

"We boggies are a hairy folk, we love to eat until we choke, sing gobble gobble gobble..."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2016, 08:00:12 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932442
Sigh.  Sigh, sigh, sigh.

Considering Phil left a trail of documentation in his letters to various wargame magazines...

... and for that matter the fact that Dave T., Moose, and Olav are all still around and remember playing D&D with Phil with me reffing, and the creation of the green bound ditto sets...

Oy gevalt, as my dear Yiddish granny used to say.

Yep. I'll bet you're just as gobsmacked as I was. Tell a big enough lie long enough and loud enough, and it becomes truth. Especially on Facebook.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2016, 08:07:04 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932443
"compressed air spigot mortar" -- All things considered I'm just as glad Phil never turned serious attention to modernistic/SF weaponry.  The stuff he DID come up with was bad enough.

The little cart has six bombs on spigots, and four wheels. The back two are for positioning the thing at the right angle, and you spin the front two to compress the air. The neat thing is that as the Shunned Ones roll the cart around, it charges the air cylinder. All right out of the Alexandrian Library and - guess what!!! - Muslim manuscripts from the medieval period. The bombs, just so you know, are pottery and filled with incendiary materials.

Oh, huzza.

You ought to see the little model of the Shunned One air car fitted up as a 'bomber' with these things. :eek:

Yeah, and people wonder why we kept Stone's Arms and Armor to hand as well as Payne-Galway. It was so very hard to fox him; he was an expert on obscure ancient and medieval weapons, and could whip this stuff out at the drop of a helmet.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 24, 2016, 08:13:10 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932450
The little cart has six bombs on spigots, and four wheels. The back two are for positioning the thing at the right angle, and you spin the front two to compress the air. The neat thing is that as the Shunned Ones roll the cart around, it charges the air cylinder. All right out of the Alexandrian Library and - guess what!!! - Muslim manuscripts from the medieval period. The bombs, just so you know, are pottery and filled with incendiary materials.

Oh, huzza.

You ought to see the little model of the Shunned One air car fitted up as a 'bomber' with these things. :eek:

Yeah, and people wonder why we kept Stone's Arms and Armor to hand as well as Payne-Galway. It was so very hard to fox him; he was an expert on obscure ancient and medieval weapons, and could whip this stuff out at the drop of a helmet.

I'm reminded of the Belgian "Jet Shot" six or nine round spigot grenade launcher.

Also, it's probably good Tom T. never got his mitts on a hundred or so of these... "sorry, the gunners heard the "FIRE" order while the traverse crew was still spinning them around to recharge the air..."

Would I do that: :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 24, 2016, 08:13:41 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932448
Gosh, Master Frito!

"We boggies are a hairy folk, we love to eat until we choke, sing gobble gobble gobble..."

Bits of garbage, that is, that they were not saving "for later."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on November 24, 2016, 08:20:38 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932452
Bits of garbage, that is, that they were not saving "for later."

Bored of the rings, but never tired of turkey
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2016, 09:09:31 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932451
I'm reminded of the Belgian "Jet Shot" six or nine round spigot grenade launcher.

Also, it's probably good Tom T. never got his mitts on a hundred or so of these... "sorry, the gunners heard the "FIRE" order while the traverse crew was still spinning them around to recharge the air..."

Would I do that: :D

I still think it was pretty funny that after I did up a couple of Chinese war rocket tubes for laughs - I had a half-dozen figures that I'd gotten for a buck - and used them once in a battle he went out and paid huge piles of real money to do a massive battery of the things as yet another of his 'wonder weapons'. I liked the notion, taken from a colonial-era site, of using those 'party-popper' things to simulate the rockets' path and anybody hit by the confetti was a casualty. I keep a pack of a dozen party poppers around, just in case...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2016, 09:10:23 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932451
I'm reminded of the Belgian "Jet Shot" six or nine round spigot grenade launcher.

Also, it's probably good Tom T. never got his mitts on a hundred or so of these... "sorry, the gunners heard the "FIRE" order while the traverse crew was still spinning them around to recharge the air..."

Would I do that: :D


I still think it was pretty funny that after I did up a couple of Chinese war rocket tubes for laughs - I had a half-dozen figures that I'd gotten for a buck - and used them once in a battle he went out and paid huge piles of real money to do a massive battery of the things as yet another of his 'wonder weapons'. I liked the notion, taken from a colonial-era site, of using those 'party-popper' things to simulate the rockets' path and anybody hit by the confetti was a casualty. I keep a pack of a dozen party poppers around, just in case...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2016, 09:12:32 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932452
Bits of garbage, that is, that they were not saving "for later."


Burp.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 24, 2016, 09:13:12 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;932453
Bored of the rings, but never tired of turkey


Agreed! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 25, 2016, 02:23:44 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;932406
Thank you sir. Some good leads there I'll follow up on. I forgot that Hrugga asked this a while back. For the meantime I'll keep using my cardboard minis until I can get a 3D one.

Shemek.


Greetings,


Here are some of my notes on the subject. Hope it makes sense...

Shunned One Tracking "Dog" -

The Vleshgayal have some kind of six-legged greyish/white tracking creature

We did see these things once, when Eyloa's infallible navigational skills and in-depth expertise with ancient technology landed us in a Shunned Ones city. The things seem to hunt by a combination of infra-red sensing and being able to sense living beings. Think hunting dogs with really bad attitudes. The only good news is that if they do bite you, human blood gives them very bad indigestion as the chemical basis is too different.

 the six legs, Phil once said, mark beings as coming from a specific region of planets in Humanspace, and two- and four-legged from another. So, I'd guess that these hunting animals are beasts that the Shunned Ones found on Tekumel, and adapted to their needs - which is why they don't have to have the different atmosphere.


"The side panel showed five of the hideous Vleshgayal. They loped across the floor with a gait that hinted at more joints than any human possessed. In front, came a greyish-white , six-legged creature that snuffled and wriggled from side to side. The thing had no visible eyes, but its long oval mouth was evident enough. Inside were ragged-edged ridges that would serve nicely as teeth."
PoS pg22

Enjoy,

H:0)

PS Mostly Uncle's words...some of the Professor's.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 25, 2016, 02:29:26 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932460
Burp.

"whole hogsheads of hog's heads, and bales of stingwort, a powerful and remarkably popular emetic."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 25, 2016, 03:11:11 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932449
Yep. I'll bet you're just as gobsmacked as I was. Tell a big enough lie long enough and loud enough, and it becomes truth. Especially on Facebook.
Tell a big lie long enough without being contradicted, yes:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;932450
The little cart has six bombs on spigots, and four wheels. The back two are for positioning the thing at the right angle, and you spin the front two to compress the air. The neat thing is that as the Shunned Ones roll the cart around, it charges the air cylinder. All right out of the Alexandrian Library and - guess what!!! - Muslim manuscripts from the medieval period. The bombs, just so you know, are pottery and filled with incendiary materials.

Oh, huzza.

You ought to see the little model of the Shunned One air car fitted up as a 'bomber' with these things. :eek:

Yeah, and people wonder why we kept Stone's Arms and Armor to hand as well as Payne-Galway. It was so very hard to fox him; he was an expert on obscure ancient and medieval weapons, and could whip this stuff out at the drop of a helmet.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;932458
I still think it was pretty funny that after I did up a couple of Chinese war rocket tubes for laughs - I had a half-dozen figures that I'd gotten for a buck - and used them once in a battle he went out and paid huge piles of real money to do a massive battery of the things as yet another of his 'wonder weapons'. I liked the notion, taken from a colonial-era site, of using those 'party-popper' things to simulate the rockets' path and anybody hit by the confetti was a casualty. I keep a pack of a dozen party poppers around, just in case...
Please tell me there's a site with this kind of weird weapons, I'm in the perfect position to showcase them:D!

After running out of the Red Ssu Fortress*, the party is about to witness a fight between the Red Ssu, backed up by Shunned Ones scientists, and the legion they took as part of their "diversion tactics". They saw already Shunned Ones constructing a weird-looking weapon. However, they didn't look closer, I still haven't decided what kind of ancient weapon it is.
(I mean, my mental notes say "weird weapon". If they look closer, or when it's used, I'd have to decide what it is. Neither of these has happened yet, though:). What I have decided is that it's going to be an assortment of syphons for launching Tsolyani Fire, and possibly something else. Any ideas what the "something else" might be, apart from these carts? I'd like to have it decided before I set up the cardboard minis:p!)
 
*It's actually a former Grey Ssu fortress. In My Tekumel, the Red Ssu are the analogue of Amazon "warrior-slaver ants", which take over another anthill and live on "slave labour";).
And yes, the Grey Ssu are well and truly screwed in this, but then nobody cares about them anyway:D.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 25, 2016, 10:59:38 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;932497

Please tell me there's a site with this kind of weird weapons, I'm in the perfect position to showcase them:D!

After running out of the Red Ssu Fortress*, the party is about to witness a fight between the Red Ssu, backed up by Shunned Ones scientists, and the legion they took as part of their "diversion tactics". They saw already Shunned Ones constructing a weird-looking weapon. However, they didn't look closer, I still haven't decided what kind of ancient weapon it is.
(I mean, my mental notes say "weird weapon". If they look closer, or when it's used, I'd have to decide what it is. Neither of these has happened yet, though:). What I have decided is that it's going to be an assortment of syphons for launching Tsolyani Fire, and possibly something else. Any ideas what the "something else" might be, apart from these carts? I'd like to have it decided before I set up the cardboard minis:p!)
 


There probably is, given the big wide nature of the Internet, but I don't know what it might be. My guiding text was one that Phil had, "The Ancient Engineers" by (of all people!) L. Sprague DeCamp - who is better known for his 'hard SF'. I have a copy of it myself, along with other such books, and I think you can get much the same materials on line. (Like Gronan did - Babbage engines in your hover tanks.) The history of warfare is full of goofy ideas that somebody sold to the paymasters, going back to Rome and China and before. Phil was very big on Greek technology from the Alexandrian school, so that might be good starting point. Every army has it's share of crackpot inventors, and in wartime they get the funding to build their inventions. (Like the Blacker Bombard, for example.)

What history does usually not record is the reaction of the trooper detailed to operate the new 'wonder weapon'; I would love to have been there to see the reaction of the crew assigned to the fire syphons in the Byzantine navy, for example.

Weapons on carts? Anything, from a small bolt-thrower to a fire syphon. Plenty of historical examples to choose from, as Phil would say - usually right before he told me to have some ready for next Thursday... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 26, 2016, 02:22:23 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932625
(Like the Blacker Bombard, for example.)

Aaieee!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on November 26, 2016, 12:34:55 PM
With such an old and vast underground, how many fungus or plant based "opponents" did you encounter?
Kayi, Tegeqmu, Thunru'u, Sagun and even Ssu seem like just samples, not a complete list.
I assume there were many more that were not "intelligent" that you encountered?

Do you have any suggestions on how to fill in the array with more?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 26, 2016, 01:21:10 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;932689
With such an old and vast underground, how many fungus or plant based "opponents" did you encounter?
Kayi, Tegeqmu, Thunru'u, Sagun and even Ssu seem like just samples, not a complete list.
I assume there were many more that were not "intelligent" that you encountered?

Do you have any suggestions on how to fill in the array with more?
=

A lot; we'd find this stuff all over, usually by stepping in it. Molds, fungi, mildew, nasty insects, 'rats', you name it - Phil had it. (Not personally, of course.) Phil just didn't detail them, as he assumed that people could extrapolate from what was in caves and ruins - or in their basements, for that matter. EPT details the 'major threats', and tends to skimp on the 'minor ones'. I'd suggest reading books on exploration, or TV documentaries for examples. The old Conan movie had some nice bits on this, too. Otherwise, use the 'minor' items in profusion. The worst underworld I ever encountered was in Hekellu, where it's right nest to the lake and mostly below the water table. Take all you usual underworld critters and add in all the aquatic horrors, and you understand why we tried to stay out of it...

What I think that we, as GMs, are up against is that Phil had 'been there and done that', and simply used his personal explorations of ruins and underworlds in India and didn't bother to write any of it down. In some ways, I think he assumed that everyone was able to come up with stuff like this for himself - he was like that on a number of other subjects, like rural life and clan-based family relationships. His stories about going through the ruined casemates of the Red Fort at Delhi was exactly how he ran us through the underworlds. As he remarked, one you get off the beaten path that all the tourists take, it gets messy pretty quickly. I might add that I found the same to be true of castles in Wales - despite their being open for visitors, there was some pretty nasty stuff in the dark corners.

Off to play D&D, this afternoon! :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on November 26, 2016, 02:03:44 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932692
A lot; we'd find this stuff all over, usually by stepping in it. Molds, fungi, mildew, nasty insects, 'rats', you name it - Phil had it. (Not personally, of course.) Phil just didn't detail them, as he assumed that people could extrapolate from what was in caves and ruins - or in their basements, for that matter. EPT details the 'major threats', and tends to skimp on the 'minor ones'. I'd suggest reading books on exploration, or TV documentaries for examples. The old Conan movie had some nice bits on this, too. Otherwise, use the 'minor' items in profusion. The worst underworld I ever encountered was in Hekellu, where it's right nest to the lake and mostly below the water table. Take all you usual underworld critters and add in all the aquatic horrors, and you understand why we tried to stay out of it...

What I think that we, as GMs, are up against is that Phil had 'been there and done that', and simply used his personal explorations of ruins and underworlds in India and didn't bother to write any of it down. In some ways, I think he assumed that everyone was able to come up with stuff like this for himself - he was like that on a number of other subjects, like rural life and clan-based family relationships. His stories about going through the ruined casemates of the Red Fort at Delhi was exactly how he ran us through the underworlds. As he remarked, one you get off the beaten path that all the tourists take, it gets messy pretty quickly. I might add that I found the same to be true of castles in Wales - despite their being open for visitors, there was some pretty nasty stuff in the dark corners.

Off to play D&D, this afternoon! :eek:


This is great, and something all DM's should take to heart. If one is able to draw from personal experience it always makes the game session that much more memorable. Phil was fortunate to have had the opportunity to travel to India and other "exotic" places, and thus be able to use this exposure when developing Tekumel.

Enjoy the game and don't take any leaden gp's:D

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 26, 2016, 02:05:06 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932692
A lot; we'd find this stuff all over, usually by stepping in it. Molds, fungi, mildew, nasty insects, 'rats', you name it - Phil had it. (Not personally, of course.) Phil just didn't detail them, as he assumed that people could extrapolate from what was in caves and ruins - or in their basements, for that matter. EPT details the 'major threats', and tends to skimp on the 'minor ones'. I'd suggest reading books on exploration, or TV documentaries for examples. The old Conan movie had some nice bits on this, too. Otherwise, use the 'minor' items in profusion. The worst underworld I ever encountered was in Hekellu, where it's right nest to the lake and mostly below the water table. Take all you usual underworld critters and add in all the aquatic horrors, and you understand why we tried to stay out of it...

What I think that we, as GMs, are up against is that Phil had 'been there and done that', and simply used his personal explorations of ruins and underworlds in India and didn't bother to write any of it down. In some ways, I think he assumed that everyone was able to come up with stuff like this for himself - he was like that on a number of other subjects, like rural life and clan-based family relationships. His stories about going through the ruined casemates of the Red Fort at Delhi was exactly how he ran us through the underworlds. As he remarked, one you get off the beaten path that all the tourists take, it gets messy pretty quickly. I might add that I found the same to be true of castles in Wales - despite their being open for visitors, there was some pretty nasty stuff in the dark corners.

Off to play D&D, this afternoon! :eek:


Uncle,

Could expand a bit on the Professor's "rats" please...Thank you. Enjoy your game!!!

H:0)

PS I liked your Sakbe post and pictures. I also loved your library. When you get the chance could you tell us about your book collection? You have already given us some really great reference books to get...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on November 26, 2016, 02:08:28 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;932491
Greetings,


Here are some of my notes on the subject. Hope it makes sense...

Shunned One Tracking "Dog" -

The Vleshgayal have some kind of six-legged greyish/white tracking creature

We did see these things once, when Eyloa's infallible navigational skills and in-depth expertise with ancient technology landed us in a Shunned Ones city. The things seem to hunt by a combination of infra-red sensing and being able to sense living beings. Think hunting dogs with really bad attitudes. The only good news is that if they do bite you, human blood gives them very bad indigestion as the chemical basis is too different.

 the six legs, Phil once said, mark beings as coming from a specific region of planets in Humanspace, and two- and four-legged from another. So, I'd guess that these hunting animals are beasts that the Shunned Ones found on Tekumel, and adapted to their needs - which is why they don't have to have the different atmosphere.


"The side panel showed five of the hideous Vleshgayal. They loped across the floor with a gait that hinted at more joints than any human possessed. In front, came a greyish-white , six-legged creature that snuffled and wriggled from side to side. The thing had no visible eyes, but its long oval mouth was evident enough. Inside were ragged-edged ridges that would serve nicely as teeth."
PoS pg22

Enjoy,

H:0)

PS Mostly Uncle's words...some of the Professor's.


Thank you Mighty Hrugga of the Epics! Your post came in very hand yesterday evening, as the party was being hunted at night, by three of these critters, in a rain soaked forest. :D

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 26, 2016, 02:11:54 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;932699
Thank you Mighty Hrugga of the Epics! Your post came in very hand yesterday evening, as the party was being hunted at night, by three of these critters, in a rain soaked forest. :D

Shemek.


Excellent!!! My pleasure!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 26, 2016, 02:47:32 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932625
There probably is, given the big wide nature of the Internet, but I don't know what it might be. My guiding text was one that Phil had, "The Ancient Engineers" by (of all people!) L. Sprague DeCamp - who is better known for his 'hard SF'. I have a copy of it myself, along with other such books, and I think you can get much the same materials on line. (Like Gronan did - Babbage engines in your hover tanks.) The history of warfare is full of goofy ideas that somebody sold to the paymasters, going back to Rome and China and before. Phil was very big on Greek technology from the Alexandrian school, so that might be good starting point. Every army has it's share of crackpot inventors, and in wartime they get the funding to build their inventions. (Like the Blacker Bombard, for example.)

What history does usually not record is the reaction of the trooper detailed to operate the new 'wonder weapon'; I would love to have been there to see the reaction of the crew assigned to the fire syphons in the Byzantine navy, for example.

Weapons on carts? Anything, from a small bolt-thrower to a fire syphon. Plenty of historical examples to choose from, as Phil would say - usually right before he told me to have some ready for next Thursday... :)

Well, I'm searching. This is one of the most amusing I've been able to come up with, and it still doesn't beat Phil's invention:).

(http://www.medievalists.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/fab8ebcd-0e1c-4e02-9cad-c3cd31d8cb92.jpg)


Quote from: chirine ba kal;932692
Off to play D&D, this afternoon! :eek:

Don't forget to report, Uncle, for I have a feeling that would be fun:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 26, 2016, 04:15:27 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932692
A lot; we'd find this stuff all over, usually by stepping in it. Molds, fungi, mildew, nasty insects, 'rats', you name it - Phil had it. (Not personally, of course.) Phil just didn't detail them, as he assumed that people could extrapolate from what was in caves and ruins - or in their basements, for that matter. EPT details the 'major threats', and tends to skimp on the 'minor ones'. I'd suggest reading books on exploration, or TV documentaries for examples. The old Conan movie had some nice bits on this, too. Otherwise, use the 'minor' items in profusion. The worst underworld I ever encountered was in Hekellu, where it's right nest to the lake and mostly below the water table. Take all you usual underworld critters and add in all the aquatic horrors, and you understand why we tried to stay out of it...

What I think that we, as GMs, are up against is that Phil had 'been there and done that', and simply used his personal explorations of ruins and underworlds in India and didn't bother to write any of it down. In some ways, I think he assumed that everyone was able to come up with stuff like this for himself - he was like that on a number of other subjects, like rural life and clan-based family relationships. His stories about going through the ruined casemates of the Red Fort at Delhi was exactly how he ran us through the underworlds. As he remarked, one you get off the beaten path that all the tourists take, it gets messy pretty quickly. I might add that I found the same to be true of castles in Wales - despite their being open for visitors, there was some pretty nasty stuff in the dark corners.

Off to play D&D, this afternoon! :eek:

Yeah, I bet the servants in Harlech castle had their hands full.

And when we went to Chinon and visited where Jacques de Mornay was imprisoned, did it ever feel like a "dungeon descent."

And have fun with D&D.... :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 26, 2016, 04:29:25 PM
i think this post on TBP (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?793792-OSR-B-X-Finesse-Fighter-The-Warrior&p=20614084#post20614084) deserves to be quoted:).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on November 27, 2016, 04:47:07 AM
A trip some twenty years ago to Warwick castle (one of the few still in one piece due to the owner not taking sides in the English Civil War) the gatehouse (IIRC) contained an oubliette that was very interesting to peer down. A hole about a meter in diameter in the floor led into a much larger space below and the only way in (or out) was via that hole. It wasn't called an oubliette for nothing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 27, 2016, 10:12:04 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;932698
Uncle,

Could expand a bit on the Professor's "rats" please...Thank you. Enjoy your game!!!

H:0)

PS I liked your Sakbe post and pictures. I also loved your library. When you get the chance could you tell us about your book collection? You have already given us some really great reference books to get...

The 'rats' are your basic vermin; they come in various forms, and have the usual variety of number of legs common to Tekumel. They all seem to have teeth, and voracious appetites. Phil didn't go into too much detail - I think his assumption was that rats are rats, and we should know what they were.

My library. I will freely admit that I love books, and I have a pretty good collection. The ones in the photo of the Sakbe road are the ones in the game room; my railway and F/SF libraries are elsewhere in the house. What I've tried to do is collect (I hate that word) books that illuminate aspects of what we learned from Phil, and reflected what he told us about over the years. Phil was very well-educated and well-read, and what he didn't know about he had a book about. In quite a few cases, I've been able to go back and get copies of books that Phil had, so we can all look at the same source materials.

I do not have a library catalog; I suppose I should do on, eh?

Thank you for the kind words on the Sakbe road posts; It was a fun project to build in the first place, and I got on the subject while building the storage crate for the set.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on November 27, 2016, 10:23:53 AM
One of the fire siphon fumble results in Sea Law has the weapon being unready to fire because the crew is having an impromptu barbecue, :D
Title: On Playing D&D
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 27, 2016, 10:25:06 AM
I had a good time. the players were a very solid bunch, and while a very diverse group, worked very well together. The GM did a 1st Level D&D version of dear old Chirine, who took up the rear guard duties and managed to be useful. Blackmoor castle is still as deadly as ever - we were in the modern d20 version - and we got worked over pretty well on several occasions. For me, it was like stepping back in time some forty years, and I enjoyed the game.

I was astonished by the rules books. A lot of numbers and number-crunching, but several of the players had handy tablet-based applications to roll up characters. I though that all the modifiers and bonuses were a lot to keep track of but again I had help with this. It all reminded me of "Tractics", actually. I mostly provided tactical advice and suggestions - there was almost nothing about this in the game books, oddly enough.

I will say that I found the d20 Blackmoor books disappointing. They are very good, and very playable; they do not have a lot of Dave Arneson or the early Blackmoor in them. They are set in the much later - 1990s and 2000s - version, and quite a few of the quirky things that made Blackmoor Blackmoor have been removed. Gertie and her island, the elves with the holy water pumps, the king of the orcs, and Sir Fang are all gone. My problem, I think, is that I played with Dave in his original idea of what he wanted to do; Blackmoor is now a Serious Place. What kept the game fun for me were the superb players, and I will treasure that. My thanks to all of them, and to the GM.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 27, 2016, 04:11:05 PM
Seems like you had fun, Uncle. I guess it's normal for settings to change somewhat between editions, it's probably better to treat them as new settings, or maybe 100 years in the future;).

Lately, quite a few books don't offer tactical advice. Sometimes, this leads to funny scenes.
(I remember and treasure the scene when my wife was playing the role of giving out in-character tactical advice to another player in RQ6 Sengoku Japan. It was doubly funny because the other player was her superior in the ninja clan hierarchy, and that didn't save her from name-calling. She explained her exactly why she's going to get her character killed and destroy the clan's reputation. Quote "how can you be so stupid to expect another ninja would fight fair and not bring assistance, you moron", unquote, which had me grinning widely because I was in the process of rolling the stats for the two helpers.

And yes, I know ninja didn't have duels, what they did do was psychological warfare. The NPC had made the offer just to psych her character out, and was actually quite surprised when the PC accepted).

The comment about Tractics made me laugh, though. You were probably playing D&D 5e (or maybe, less likely, 3.5/Pathfinder), and I assure you, I could think of games that are much heavier at first level:p.
It's the new normal:). Thankfully, it doesn't bother me to play mechanics-heavy, as long as the mechanics can be used for something that makes sense.
Applications are almost a blessing, though, I fully share those feelings:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 27, 2016, 04:30:01 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;932817
Seems like you had fun, Uncle. I guess it's normal for settings to change somewhat between editions, it's probably better to treat them as new settings, or maybe 100 years in the future;).

Lately, quite a few books don't offer tactical advice. Sometimes, this leads to funny scenes.
(I remember and treasure the scene when my wife was playing the role of giving out in-character tactical advice to another player in RQ6 Sengoku Japan. It was doubly funny because the other player was her superior in the ninja clan hierarchy, and that didn't save her from name-calling. She explained her exactly why she's going to get her character killed and destroy the clan's reputation. Quote "how can you be so stupid to expect another ninja would fight fair and not bring assistance, you moron", unquote, which had me grinning widely because I was in the process of rolling the stats for the two helpers.

And yes, I know ninja didn't have duels, what they did do was psychological warfare. The NPC had made the offer just to psych her character out, and was actually quite surprised when the PC accepted).

The comment about Tractics made me laugh, though. You were probably playing D&D 5e (or maybe, less likely, 3.5/Pathfinder), and I assure you, I could think of games that are much heavier at first level:p.
It's the new normal:). Thankfully, it doesn't bother me to play mechanics-heavy, as long as the mechanics can be used for something that makes sense.
Applications are almost a blessing, though, I fully share those feelings:D!


I did enjoy myself; very good players, and a good GM was what made the game fun.

I agree about the settings changing. I just didn't like that what we, back in the day, had thought was part and parcel of Blackmoor's quirky and whimsical charm had been removed and the place made into A Serious RPG Setting For Serious Gaming. I kept thinking that I was intruding at the table, and being from a very different time and place. My impression, which has been developing for some years, is that there's no place for the kind of gaming and games that I like in today's hobby. Of course, with the kind of money one has to spend to get into the hobby these days, I can see why Serious Gaming is the norm; I looked at both the Star Wars and Star trek miniatures games that are on the market - the ships for which I would have been happy to give up an arm for, back in the day - and it all seems that if you spend enough money. you'll be able to play the game. (And this from a guy who just dropped $80 on a two-foot long trieme and $45 on a Sleazy Merchant and his six Sleepy Guards, too; different tastes, I would venture to say.)

Agreed. I did some suggestions on tactics that both players and GM thought were good, and they got used. I was pleased, as it saved our little party a lot of grief later on in the session.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 28, 2016, 03:13:53 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932819
I did enjoy myself; very good players, and a good GM was what made the game fun.
Well, that's great!

Quote
I agree about the settings changing. I just didn't like that what we, back in the day, had thought was part and parcel of Blackmoor's quirky and whimsical charm had been removed and the place made into A Serious RPG Setting For Serious Gaming.
Yeah, though my impression is that most groups still play it quirky and whimsical. AFAICT, the rationale behind the shift is that it's easier to use a Serious RPG Setting for whimsical play than the other way around.
Or maybe they've decided that players can do it quirky without help. I can attest to that:).

Quote
I kept thinking that I was intruding at the table, and being from a very different time and place. My impression, which has been developing for some years, is that there's no place for the kind of gaming and games that I like in today's hobby.
I was at the same point about a decade ago.
Then I decided that what the hobby doesn't have is enough GMs. Thus, if I run it, I decide what kind of gaming there is place for.
The results, may I add, seem to prove me right;).


Quote
Of course, with the kind of money one has to spend to get into the hobby these days, I can see why Serious Gaming is the norm; I looked at both the Star Wars and Star trek miniatures games that are on the market - the ships for which I would have been happy to give up an arm for, back in the day - and it all seems that if you spend enough money. you'll be able to play the game. (And this from a guy who just dropped $80 on a two-foot long trieme and $45 on a Sleazy Merchant and his six Sleepy Guards, too; different tastes, I would venture to say.)
I don't think so, Uncle. Most games I can think of you can get for less than those $80, and probably for less than the $45 you mentioned. That includes the dice, but not the pizza.

Quote
Agreed. I did some suggestions on tactics that both players and GM thought were good, and they got used. I was pleased, as it saved our little party a lot of grief later on in the session.
I'm unsurprised:D!
Can you give us an example of said tactics?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on November 28, 2016, 11:11:30 AM
You got something there, Chirine.  That Heavy Metal (as in magazine) mix of Fantasy and Sci-Fi, informed as much by Sword and Planet as Sword and Sorcery, and both of them more than Tolkien, is hard to come by these days.  Some OSR stuff out there tries, like DCC, but many of them just go for the gonzo, which makes them seem more like a cover band then the real thing.

I think you're right, in that it was a sign of the times and the times have changed.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron on November 28, 2016, 12:47:22 PM
I'm with AsenRG on this one. Play style is a function of what you're exposed to. If you run the game, you set the style. Then vote with your wallet, if you're going to buy products buy the ones in the style you like. I have The First Fantasy Campaign from JG, and if I ever wanted to run Blackmoor (and I don't know if I ever will, I've got so much to run anyway), I'd use that as a base. Then maybe maps from the TSR module series.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 28, 2016, 03:40:10 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932819
I did enjoy myself; very good players, and a good GM was what made the game fun.

I agree about the settings changing. I just didn't like that what we, back in the day, had thought was part and parcel of Blackmoor's quirky and whimsical charm had been removed and the place made into A Serious RPG Setting For Serious Gaming. I kept thinking that I was intruding at the table, and being from a very different time and place. My impression, which has been developing for some years, is that there's no place for the kind of gaming and games that I like in today's hobby. Of course, with the kind of money one has to spend to get into the hobby these days, I can see why Serious Gaming is the norm; I looked at both the Star Wars and Star trek miniatures games that are on the market - the ships for which I would have been happy to give up an arm for, back in the day - and it all seems that if you spend enough money. you'll be able to play the game. (And this from a guy who just dropped $80 on a two-foot long trieme and $45 on a Sleazy Merchant and his six Sleepy Guards, too; different tastes, I would venture to say.)

Agreed. I did some suggestions on tactics that both players and GM thought were good, and they got used. I was pleased, as it saved our little party a lot of grief later on in the session.

I fell in love with the Star Wars X wing game, until I saw the 'expansion packs' in play.  Once again, the game turns into "how much money do you spend," not "how much skill does the player have." :(

Yeah, they're pricey, but sweet Avanthe's perfect tushy, they are gorgeous.

And I know what you mean by the death of whimsy.  As I said when Anthony interviewed me for "Dungeons & Dragons, A Documentary" -- "When did sitting around a table with friends, drinking beer and talking about pretending to be an elf, become such SERIOUS BUSINESS!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 28, 2016, 03:40:54 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;932867
I'm unsurprised:D!
Can you give us an example of said tactics?

#1:  Look behind you once in a damn while!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on November 28, 2016, 04:09:12 PM
I believe there is enough room in the tent for all kinds of gaming. And I believe that there are way more non-Serious Gamers than Serious ones. Maybe the percentage of Serious Gamers is higher in your neck of the woods than most places. In fact, given your descriptions of the various personalities in your area from over the years, I think there maybe something in the water up there, lol.

But keep playing. Keep running games how you like to play. It sounds like you have never lacked for players, so I think there certainly is a place for your kind of gaming. I know Gronan has said he has no lack of players trying to play in his games. There is a thirst for it.

I may be wrong but it seemed like wargaming and roleplaying diverged right as D&D really exploded. Back in the early 80's, I don't recall too many people who did both. RPGer's looked at the "scary bearded guys" (an actual quote I remember being uttered many times in many stores) in the back with their minis with a bit of fear. The old wargaming grogs seemed to settle into historicals and a few spaceship games, and scoffed/looked down on the "kids" who were "playing pretend". The line has since blurred again, coming from the wargames' side taking on  some of the trappings of rpgs. Most of the new and popular (and expensive) wargames have all kinds of named characters with unique powers, etc. Problem is (imo) that this came after the wargames gulped down some concepts from the later rpgs that made them easier to sell to young players, things like diminished/overly simplified tactics, lack of C&C or morale, etc. (Warhammer 1st edition was never going to be used by the Prussian High Command to train it's officers, but compared to whatever release they are on now, it is light years more challenging). I can see the miniature based games you run on your youtube channel actually going over well. Especially with those that play those games but want a bit "more" from them. I've talked with and gamed with several people who feel that way.

Tekumel questions- how much access do the temples give to scholars, to things like libraries and their own scholars? I understand that if you belong and are of high enough circle you get access to stuff, but what about to an allied Temple? A rival? Thumis is the teacher, does he have libraries where anybody can go do research? I assume some of it would be "donation" based but is there a general policy? I would also assume that they have a public section and a private side, correct?

Do all the Temples have libraries and research arms? Are some temples more specialized, like Karakan and Vimulha may not have big libraries but what they do have is lots of stuff on war and combat? Like shelves of Osprey books, lol?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 28, 2016, 05:04:19 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932927
#1:  Look behind you once in a damn while!

I'd hope they knew that one already;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 28, 2016, 06:09:22 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;932867
I'm unsurprised:D!
Can you give us an example of said tactics?

What we used to call 'travelling' and 'bounding' 'overwatch', where the various sections / people of the party covered each other's moves;
Communication - saying to the party, and not just to the GM, what they were wanting or about to do;
Covering people engaged in a task by someone with a ranged weapon or spell - covering fire, as it were;
Rearguards that guarded the rear of the party.
Archers or crossbowpersons carry one arrow or bolt that has oil-soaked tow wrapped around the head, so that it can be used as an 'illumination' or 'incendiary' round - giant spiders have webs, webs burn, ambush blown;
Carry lanterns, not torches - and carry them low, so as not to blind everybody;

Them was the basics we covered in this game session.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 28, 2016, 06:12:15 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;932894
You got something there, Chirine.  That Heavy Metal (as in magazine) mix of Fantasy and Sci-Fi, informed as much by Sword and Planet as Sword and Sorcery, and both of them more than Tolkien, is hard to come by these days.  Some OSR stuff out there tries, like DCC, but many of them just go for the gonzo, which makes them seem more like a cover band then the real thing.

I think you're right, in that it was a sign of the times and the times have changed.


Agreed. So it goes, I would think...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 28, 2016, 06:17:30 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;932935
I believe there is enough room in the tent for all kinds of gaming. And I believe that there are way more non-Serious Gamers than Serious ones. Maybe the percentage of Serious Gamers is higher in your neck of the woods than most places. In fact, given your descriptions of the various personalities in your area from over the years, I think there maybe something in the water up there, lol.

But keep playing. Keep running games how you like to play. It sounds like you have never lacked for players, so I think there certainly is a place for your kind of gaming. I know Gronan has said he has no lack of players trying to play in his games. There is a thirst for it.

Agreed with all your points. However, the problem for me is that I have to take the tent to the local game con or the FLGS. In effect, I have to set up  a sort of 'trade show booth' and hope that custom comes my way. Back in the day, the usual custom was that we'd get together at each other's places or at either the 'private club' of the CSA or the Little Tin. That's now gone, and the only time that I get players is when I pack up the van and set up shop. And that's getting to be a 'no option' option due to the size of the baggage train.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 28, 2016, 06:26:06 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;932935

Tekumel questions- how much access do the temples give to scholars, to things like libraries and their own scholars? I understand that if you belong and are of high enough circle you get access to stuff, but what about to an allied Temple? A rival? Thumis is the teacher, does he have libraries where anybody can go do research? I assume some of it would be "donation" based but is there a general policy? I would also assume that they have a public section and a private side, correct?

Do all the Temples have libraries and research arms? Are some temples more specialized, like Karakan and Vimulha may not have big libraries but what they do have is lots of stuff on war and combat? Like shelves of Osprey books, lol?


Allied temples let you in if and when you or your own temple can provide a favor or quid-pro-quo. Access is usually pretty good, although the really secret stuff will not be on the 'open shelves'. Rivals better have a pretty hefty inducement handy, and they will be very carefully chaperoned in the stacks.

Yes; there are 'open' stacks, and 'closed' stacks. Just like any modern major library, actually. The Temple of Thumis is not a public library; you need connections of some sort to get in, just like any of the temples.

There are 'open-to-anybody' - who can read, of course, which is not the norm - libraries, but they are run by the Imperium and they do look over your shoulder to see what you're reading; it goes in your dossier that the OAL keeps on you. And yes, 'donation' expected.

Yes, Yes, and Yes. A good medium level Temple of Vimhula will have a library like my own, which is one of the reasons I started it in the first place.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 28, 2016, 06:53:44 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932774
The 'rats' are your basic vermin; they come in various forms, and have the usual variety of number of legs common to Tekumel. They all seem to have teeth, and voracious appetites. Phil didn't go into too much detail - I think his assumption was that rats are rats, and we should know what they were.

My library. I will freely admit that I love books, and I have a pretty good collection. The ones in the photo of the Sakbe road are the ones in the game room; my railway and F/SF libraries are elsewhere in the house. What I've tried to do is collect (I hate that word) books that illuminate aspects of what we learned from Phil, and reflected what he told us about over the years. Phil was very well-educated and well-read, and what he didn't know about he had a book about. In quite a few cases, I've been able to go back and get copies of books that Phil had, so we can all look at the same source materials.

I do not have a library catalog; I suppose I should do on, eh?

Thank you for the kind words on the Sakbe road posts; It was a fun project to build in the first place, and I got on the subject while building the storage crate for the set.


Yes!!! Thank you. I can imagine four legged-types(not much different from ours today that survived the ages) and six-legged types with three eyes(alien by our standards)...vermin, pests, mutations...Don't feed the "rats"...They may grow!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on November 28, 2016, 07:41:45 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932926
"When did sitting around a table with friends, drinking beer and talking about pretending to be an elf, become such SERIOUS BUSINESS!"


When people thought they were too old to "Play Pretend" and felt they needed to justify it as something Serious.
(or when they were concerned Others would think that.)
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 28, 2016, 07:54:04 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932962
What we used to call 'travelling' and 'bounding' 'overwatch', where the various sections / people of the party covered each other's moves;
Communication - saying to the party, and not just to the GM, what they were wanting or about to do;
Covering people engaged in a task by someone with a ranged weapon or spell - covering fire, as it were;
Rearguards that guarded the rear of the party.
Archers or crossbowpersons carry one arrow or bolt that has oil-soaked tow wrapped around the head, so that it can be used as an 'illumination' or 'incendiary' round - giant spiders have webs, webs burn, ambush blown;
Carry lanterns, not torches - and carry them low, so as not to blind everybody;

Them was the basics we covered in this game session.

All good and necessary stuff, if you ask me;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 28, 2016, 09:48:58 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;932982
All good and necessary stuff, if you ask me;)!

But modern rules have been designed to eliminate much of that.  For instance in 3.X and pathfinder, the elimination of facing, so a figure has 360 degree vision.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 29, 2016, 06:35:30 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;932994
But modern rules have been designed to eliminate much of that.  For instance in 3.X and pathfinder, the elimination of facing, so a figure has 360 degree vision.

I don't remember PF, but in 3e you have facing, which determines bonuses to hit like +2 from the sides and +4 from the back, and potentially stuff like sneak attack damage. Sneaking on unsuspecting enemies also lets you use their "flat-footed" AC, which is generally lower, and allows you attacks with improved damage.
PF is a clone of 3x, so I guess it's similar, but can't remember the exact rules due to lack of experience.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Xanther on November 29, 2016, 10:22:18 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;932962
What we used to call 'travelling' and 'bounding' 'overwatch', where the various sections / people of the party covered each other's moves;
Communication - saying to the party, and not just to the GM, what they were wanting or about to do;
Covering people engaged in a task by someone with a ranged weapon or spell - covering fire, as it were;
Rearguards that guarded the rear of the party.
Archers or crossbowpersons carry one arrow or bolt that has oil-soaked tow wrapped around the head, so that it can be used as an 'illumination' or 'incendiary' round - giant spiders have webs, webs burn, ambush blown;
Carry lanterns, not torches - and carry them low, so as not to blind everybody;

Them was the basics we covered in this game session.

All good stuff / standard operating procedure.

We always appointed someone to watch the ceiling, and if a large enough party people dedicated to looking left, right and down...as well as behind.  Typical urban combat tactics.
Familiars were also used as our advanced warning / sensor system, poking out from the safe confines of an armored backpack.
Was always a big fan of strong cord that we used to set as a trip wire when possible (every bit helps), caltrops and sharpened wooden stakes.  The feigned retreat to draw enemies into a trap was one of our favorite tactics.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron on November 29, 2016, 12:53:39 PM
Hi Chirine, thought I'd pose this question here for all to enjoy. In working on my Kashi adventure, I've been giving the Silver Suits a bit more thought. OK, per the lore they were Space Marines, got it. And they have a Doc Smith / Lensman connection. But my Kashi is isolated from the Humanspace Empire, and populated with descendants of the original base personnel. They have lost significant knowledge, and their facilities are aging badly. I propose that actual Silver Suits are from current Humanspace, and are here in the bethorm on various exploratory or research missions. These are the guys you see floating around the Pylons. On the other hand, Kashi and the Southern Polar Base have space marines, but they are the relatively ignorant descendants of greatness. What do you think?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on November 29, 2016, 01:23:58 PM
Hello All,

Quick question for anyone. Have any of you read S.M. Stirling’s In the Courts of the Crimson Kings and The Sky People?
I just learned about them now. All I know is that they are pastiche of ERB, Leigh Brackett, and others. What do you think? I will not read them for awhile yet. Just wondering if they are worth the time. First I have to finish ERB's Mars books(three more to go) and move onto the Venus series...Thanks

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on November 29, 2016, 01:41:13 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;933031
I don't remember PF, but in 3e you have facing, which determines bonuses to hit like +2 from the sides and +4 from the back, and potentially stuff like sneak attack damage. Sneaking on unsuspecting enemies also lets you use their "flat-footed" AC, which is generally lower, and allows you attacks with improved damage.
PF is a clone of 3x, so I guess it's similar, but can't remember the exact rules due to lack of experience.


You have facing only when multiple opponents come into play.  A single figure cannot flank another figure.  This is the direct opposite of earlier editions.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 29, 2016, 05:32:13 PM
Quote from: Baron;933081
Hi Chirine, thought I'd pose this question here for all to enjoy. In working on my Kashi adventure, I've been giving the Silver Suits a bit more thought. OK, per the lore they were Space Marines, got it. And they have a Doc Smith / Lensman connection. But my Kashi is isolated from the Humanspace Empire, and populated with descendants of the original base personnel. They have lost significant knowledge, and their facilities are aging badly. I propose that actual Silver Suits are from current Humanspace, and are here in the bethorm on various exploratory or research missions. These are the guys you see floating around the Pylons. On the other hand, Kashi and the Southern Polar Base have space marines, but they are the relatively ignorant descendants of greatness. What do you think?

Sounds good to me. I play the Siver Suits the way you do, and I have a strong suspicion that that's what Phil had in mind. We never had the chance to question one - they have a nasty habit of blowing up when you try to open the suits - so we don't know. He left no notes on this behind, either.

Never saw any living beings in either Kashi or the South Polar base, but that doesn't mean anything. If I lived there, and a bunch of weird strangers showed up, I'd hide and wait them out too...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 29, 2016, 05:38:02 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;933086
Hello All,

Quick question for anyone. Have any of you read S.M. Stirling’s In the Courts of the Crimson Kings and The Sky People?
I just learned about them now. All I know is that they are pastiche of ERB, Leigh Brackett, and others. What do you think? I will not read them for awhile yet. Just wondering if they are worth the time. First I have to finish ERB's Mars books(three more to go) and move onto the Venus series...Thanks

H:0)

I have, and found them great fun. Lots of 'sideways thinking' from the author. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on November 29, 2016, 05:39:10 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;933090
You have facing only when multiple opponents come into play.  A single figure cannot flank another figure.  This is the direct opposite of earlier editions.

Huh? Run that one past me again? No more dry-gulching orcs, or what?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on November 29, 2016, 05:42:25 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;933090
You have facing only when multiple opponents come into play.  A single figure cannot flank another figure.  This is the direct opposite of earlier editions.

Huh, you're right. It seems the facing rule was a houserule we'd adopted across multiple groups:).
Granted, it mostly done in order to reflect surprise attacks where the attacked can't turn fast enough to react, and in order to be consistent in awarding the bonuses for position.

That said, "not being able to flank unless you have surprise or teamwork" makes sense to me. People tend to turn the front of their stances towards you rather quickly when attacked from the side or back, unless something like surprise is preventing them from doing so. So I must admit that I haven't seen anyone gaining the facing bonus in an older edition, either, unless the attack was using surprise or misdirection;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 02, 2016, 05:31:47 PM
Interesting. I've always assumed that 'facing' applied, especially in the case of surprise or a melee, as that fits in with my own experiences. And being a miniatures player, that was probably reinforced by the kind of games I'm used to playing. The 'custom of the house', all these years, has been "Do I get a chance to face the thing?" followed by "Roll percentile dice, your dexterity of less." as we used to do in EPT. Other rule sets was a straight percentile dice roll, with the GM/referee making a counter roll for the attacker.

I dunno; I like 'facing', as it does provide an extra little bit to the combat, and rewards tactics and thinking. Old-fashioned, probably.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 02, 2016, 06:10:34 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;933521
Interesting. I've always assumed that 'facing' applied, especially in the case of surprise or a melee, as that fits in with my own experiences. And being a miniatures player, that was probably reinforced by the kind of games I'm used to playing. The 'custom of the house', all these years, has been "Do I get a chance to face the thing?" followed by "Roll percentile dice, your dexterity of less." as we used to do in EPT. Other rule sets was a straight percentile dice roll, with the GM/referee making a counter roll for the attacker.

I dunno; I like 'facing', as it does provide an extra little bit to the combat, and rewards tactics and thinking. Old-fashioned, probably.

My point was that it doesn't make sense to track it when there's no surprise or other combatants to provide a distraction, Uncle. Generally, I find that if in a one-on-one fight someone can control your stance to the point that you don't get to face him, we're talking about you having already lost:).
We do track facing when there's either surprise or multiple characters;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on December 02, 2016, 06:15:51 PM
Invisibility, Displacement, Feinting, Quickling-like Speed, PC intentionally keeping facing for some other purpose, there's tons of reasons you might have flanking without Surprise or being Outnumbered, but it requires thinking of the situation happening in the world,  not on a board, a headspace WotC has never been able to get into.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 02, 2016, 09:44:14 PM
Uncle,

I love that Sakbe road!!! Which brings me to my question. Could you please tell us what you know about "The Young Master"? Thanks.

H:0)

PS I know May have asked before. Whatever you could tellme would be great...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 03, 2016, 04:12:43 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;933524
Invisibility, Displacement, Feinting, Quickling-like Speed, PC intentionally keeping facing for some other purpose, there's tons of reasons you might have flanking without Surprise or being Outnumbered, but it requires thinking of the situation happening in the world,  not on a board, a headspace WotC has never been able to get into.

I disagree with feinting and Invisibility since Invisibility is definitely under Surprise, and feinting has its own rules:). But yes, I should amend that to surprise, numbers, magic, or Reasons, though I lump most such Reasons under Surprise.

Still, most of them wouldn't happen in duels or one-on-one fights, which was my point;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 03, 2016, 06:35:06 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;933543
Uncle,

I love that Sakbe road!!! Which brings me to my question. Could you please tell us what you know about "The Young Master"? Thanks.

H:0)


PS I know May have asked before. Whatever you could tellme would be great...

Thank you! It was the very first project I did after I got my nice little table-top table saw. We never had anything like this, back in the day, as extruded foam wasn't available and the other options open to us were just not practical.

Ah, the Young Master. No, you hadn't asked, before (I think). He was (and still is, for all I know) a religious leader up in the mountains east of Hekellu, and from the Tsolyani point-of-view a pretty major pain in the ass. He was behind a lot of the trouble in the Chaigari Protectorate, trying to gather the tribes into some sort of loose alliance to get us out of Chaigari and maybe loot Hekellu in the process. We did the micro-campaign out to Sirsum and back to repress him and his allies, which we did pretty handily at the Battle of Anch'ke by killing about half his followers. This kept him fairly quiet until the start of the Tsolyani civil war, when he took the opportunity handed to him on a platter by the withdrawal of the Legion of the Translucent Emerald from Hekellu to come down from the hills and sack the city. The last Tsolyani Governor of Hekellu got killed in the fighting, in a heroic last stand in the flames of the collapsing New Palace; nobody knows what happened to his wife and two daughters, as they disappeared in the chaos and have never been found.

(Personally, I didn't shed any tears over Hekellu getting sacked and burned. We'd had an immense amount of trouble with them, almost open rebellion, and it was a real trial to keep the place more-or-less quiet during my tenure there. I felt sorry for my replacement, who inherited a real mess - hostile tribesmen in the hills, traitors within the walls, and no troops to speak of. It got him killed.)

Phil drew on his knowledge of the Northwest Frontier for this person and the events. There was a local holy man who led the tribes in a very similar rebellion against the British, and Phil took a lot of the 'local color' from this campaign. May I suggest a book by somebody you might have heard of?

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/9404 (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/9404),

better known as: "The Story of the Malakand Field Force: An Episode of Frontier War" by W. S. Churchill

Phil, once we were in too deep to get out, finally 'confessed' and suggested the book. I got a copy, and have never regretted it. It's a great source of material for GMs in a campaign.

This micro-campaign was Phil at his best, with the usual (for that time and place) blend of 'straight role-playing' mixed with 'skirmish wargaming'. We never did meet the holy man himself, just a lot of his followers who were out to kill us; we did unto them, before they could do unto us. For more material, I can also suggest the War on the Nile, the campaign against the Mahdi. Same sort of leader, charismatic and dangerous.

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 03, 2016, 08:32:21 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;933581
Phil drew on his knowledge of the Northwest Frontier for this person and the events. There was a local holy man who led the tribes in a very similar rebellion against the British, and Phil took a lot of the 'local color' from this campaign. May I suggest a book by somebody you might have heard of?

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/9404 (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/9404),

better known as: "The Story of the Malakand Field Force: An Episode of Frontier War" by W. S. Churchill

Thanks!
So many great reads. So little time.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 03, 2016, 10:26:59 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;933581
Thank you! It was the very first project I did after I got my nice little table-top table saw. We never had anything like this, back in the day, as extruded foam wasn't available and the other options open to us were just not practical.

Ah, the Young Master. No, you hadn't asked, before (I think). He was (and still is, for all I know) a religious leader up in the mountains east of Hekellu, and from the Tsolyani point-of-view a pretty major pain in the ass. He was behind a lot of the trouble in the Chaigari Protectorate, trying to gather the tribes into some sort of loose alliance to get us out of Chaigari and maybe loot Hekellu in the process. We did the micro-campaign out to Sirsum and back to repress him and his allies, which we did pretty handily at the Battle of Anch'ke by killing about half his followers. This kept him fairly quiet until the start of the Tsolyani civil war, when he took the opportunity handed to him on a platter by the withdrawal of the Legion of the Translucent Emerald from Hekellu to come down from the hills and sack the city. The last Tsolyani Governor of Hekellu got killed in the fighting, in a heroic last stand in the flames of the collapsing New Palace; nobody knows what happened to his wife and two daughters, as they disappeared in the chaos and have never been found.

(Personally, I didn't shed any tears over Hekellu getting sacked and burned. We'd had an immense amount of trouble with them, almost open rebellion, and it was a real trial to keep the place more-or-less quiet during my tenure there. I felt sorry for my replacement, who inherited a real mess - hostile tribesmen in the hills, traitors within the walls, and no troops to speak of. It got him killed.)

Phil drew on his knowledge of the Northwest Frontier for this person and the events. There was a local holy man who led the tribes in a very similar rebellion against the British, and Phil took a lot of the 'local color' from this campaign. May I suggest a book by somebody you might have heard of?

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/9404 (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/9404),

better known as: "The Story of the Malakand Field Force: An Episode of Frontier War" by W. S. Churchill

Phil, once we were in too deep to get out, finally 'confessed' and suggested the book. I got a copy, and have never regretted it. It's a great source of material for GMs in a campaign.

This micro-campaign was Phil at his best, with the usual (for that time and place) blend of 'straight role-playing' mixed with 'skirmish wargaming'. We never did meet the holy man himself, just a lot of his followers who were out to kill us; we did unto them, before they could do unto us. For more material, I can also suggest the War on the Nile, the campaign against the Mahdi. Same sort of leader, charismatic and dangerous.

Does this help?

Uncle,

Great!!! Helpful, yes as always!!! Would you have any other information about him? Such as his religious doctrines...Thanks.

H:0)

PS Thank you Uncle. I just downloaded your reference for a future read. Only 844 pages...now I have electronic pile-up as well!!! See post 5056... :0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 03, 2016, 10:32:44 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;933595
Thanks!
So many great reads. So little time.
=


Hear, hear!!! I have a stacks of tomes waiting for me!!! Work is in the way(not to mention Wife eyeing my piles, thinking where she can put them)!!! So for me in about two months back to normal!!! I'm sure I will have even more questions for uncle!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 03, 2016, 10:47:20 AM
Excellent book, Uncle, and one that I hadn't seen despite having lots of respect for the author. Thank you:)!

Quote from: Hrugga;933602
Hear, hear!!! I have a stacks of tomes waiting for me!!! Work is in the way(not to mention Wife eyeing my piles, thinking where she can put them)!!! So for me in about two months back to normal!!! I'm sure I will have even more questions for uncle!!!

H;0)

I know the feeling;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on December 03, 2016, 11:07:57 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;933602
Hear, hear!!! I have a stacks of tomes waiting for me!!! Work is in the way(not to mention Wife eyeing my piles, thinking where she can put them)!!! So for me in about two months back to normal!!! I'm sure I will have even more questions for uncle!!!

H;0)


Quote from: AsenRG;933606

I know the feeling;).



Sigh!:(

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 03, 2016, 03:08:59 PM
If your wife is eyeing your piles, you'd better see a proctologist.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 03, 2016, 03:11:52 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;933574
I disagree with feinting and Invisibility since Invisibility is definitely under Surprise, and feinting has its own rules:). But yes, I should amend that to surprise, numbers, magic, or Reasons, though I lump most such Reasons under Surprise.

Still, most of them wouldn't happen in duels or one-on-one fights, which was my point;).

Duels are extremely rare, and so are one on one fights for that matter.  And the insistence of later games in treating an adventuring party as a series of one on one duels is one of my major complaints against them.  If a band of Orcs is hiding in a side passage and attacks the PC party from the side, the notion that "they don't get flanking because they don't attack from two sides at once" is so fucking ridiculous that whoever thought up that rule, and anybody who thinks it is a good idea, needs to be punched repeatedly in the nutsack until they smarten up.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 03, 2016, 03:14:31 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;933521
Interesting. I've always assumed that 'facing' applied, especially in the case of surprise or a melee, as that fits in with my own experiences. And being a miniatures player, that was probably reinforced by the kind of games I'm used to playing. The 'custom of the house', all these years, has been "Do I get a chance to face the thing?" followed by "Roll percentile dice, your dexterity of less." as we used to do in EPT. Other rule sets was a straight percentile dice roll, with the GM/referee making a counter roll for the attacker.

I dunno; I like 'facing', as it does provide an extra little bit to the combat, and rewards tactics and thinking. Old-fashioned, probably.

RPG writing got taken over by people who never played a wargame in their lives, and the hobby has suffered drastically as a result.  The rules have been rewritten for D&D so that "tactics" now work like they do in most computer games; use your "special gizmo" attack at the right moment, or, more usually, mash a certain series of buttons in a certain order.

"wargame" is now a term of derision in most RPG circles.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 03, 2016, 03:30:39 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;933615
If your wife is eyeing your piles, you'd better see a proctologist.

Ah Glorious General!!! I am getting older. Funny about a year ago, I had just such a problem. 28 days out of work...!!!
Thank God for civil service!!!

H;0)

PS I had originally used stacks, but changed it for piles!!! Hahahahahahaha!!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 03, 2016, 04:17:46 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;933616
Duels are extremely rare, and so are one on one fights for that matter.
Which is why I remembered that we've kept "facing". Surprise or numbers always kept showing up:)!

Quote
And the insistence of later games in treating an adventuring party as a series of one on one duels is one of my major complaints against them.  If a band of Orcs is hiding in a side passage and attacks the PC party from the side, the notion that "they don't get flanking because they don't attack from two sides at once" is so fucking ridiculous that whoever thought up that rule, and anybody who thinks it is a good idea, needs to be punched repeatedly in the nutsack until they smarten up.
Then that's "surprise", and they get a side facing bonus, or back facing if they wait for the PCs to pass them up;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 04, 2016, 05:23:50 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;933595
Thanks!
So many great reads. So little time.
=


You're welcome. I guess I'm surprised that more folks don't use books like this for ideas for games; it was a basic part of our DNA.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 04, 2016, 05:26:09 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;933601
Uncle,

Great!!! Helpful, yes as always!!! Would you have any other information about him? Such as his religious doctrines...Thanks.

H:0)

PS Thank you Uncle. I just downloaded your reference for a future read. Only 844 pages...now I have electronic pile-up as well!!! See post 5056... :0)


His doctrine was basically that the Twenty Temples were wrong, and people should talk to the gods through him and him alone. Oh, yeah, and the gods look with favor on all that nice stuff in Hekellu, and it's time for a little redistribution of the wealth.

Your welcome. Have fun with that young Fourth Hussar!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 04, 2016, 05:26:59 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;933606
Excellent book, Uncle, and one that I hadn't seen despite having lots of respect for the author. Thank you:)!


You're welcome!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 04, 2016, 05:29:13 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;933618
RPG writing got taken over by people who never played a wargame in their lives, and the hobby has suffered drastically as a result.  The rules have been rewritten for D&D so that "tactics" now work like they do in most computer games; use your "special gizmo" attack at the right moment, or, more usually, mash a certain series of buttons in a certain order.

"wargame" is now a term of derision in most RPG circles.

Ah. Again, so much I've observed over the past decade is explained. Well, so it goes, I suppose.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 04, 2016, 08:50:59 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;933713
You're welcome. I guess I'm surprised that more folks don't use books like this for ideas for games; it was a basic part of our DNA.

When you know it exists...
There are a Lot of books and you can't always tell their value by their cover.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 04, 2016, 10:35:27 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;933730
When you know it exists...
There are a Lot of books and you can't always tell their value by their cover.
=

Very true! I get the impression that I'm on the other side of the Digital Divide, and a relic of the pre-Internet days when all we had for information sources were books. I read for fun and enjoyment, and am not a big media fan - although I've been typecast as one in the past - who spends a lot of time on things like Facebook and Twitter.

When I was putting First and Second Daughters through high school, getting them to read anything was an agony. If it wasn't Wiki, it wasn't.

I freely admit that I used to read a lot when playing out at Phil's, and made a very strong effort to seek out and read the books that he suggested. I learned an awful lot, which carried over into my gaming, many times to my advantage.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 04, 2016, 11:06:01 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;933741
Very true! I get the impression that I'm on the other side of the Digital Divide, and a relic of the pre-Internet days when all we had for information sources were books. I read for fun and enjoyment, and am not a big media fan - although I've been typecast as one in the past - who spends a lot of time on things like Facebook and Twitter.

When I was putting First and Second Daughters through high school, getting them to read anything was an agony. If it wasn't Wiki, it wasn't.

I freely admit that I used to read a lot when playing out at Phil's, and made a very strong effort to seek out and read the books that he suggested. I learned an awful lot, which carried over into my gaming, many times to my advantage.


Yes Uncle. This is why I was asking about your library...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 04, 2016, 11:12:37 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;933744
Yes Uncle. This is why I was asking about your library...

H:0)

Understood. One of these days I'll get somebody in to do a complete catalog of the library. There's something like 1,200 books on the shelves.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 04, 2016, 12:57:24 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;933745
understood. One of these days i'll get somebody in to do a complete catalog of the library. There's something like 1,200 books on the shelves.


👍🏻

h;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 04, 2016, 02:57:32 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;933756
����

h;0)

Not understood; sorry!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 04, 2016, 04:47:17 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;933785
Not understood; sorry![/QUOTE

It was a thumbs up!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 04, 2016, 05:49:28 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;933800
Quote from: chirine ba kal;933785
Not understood; sorry![/QUOTE

It was a thumbs up!!!

H:0)

Oh, right, gotcha. All I saw on this end were two little blank boxes.

Blog update is now up, with a photo of this afternoons' very pleasant three hours' work on the Sakbe road towers. Ran out of beam clamps again, so it's dinner time while the glue dries on everything.

I do like building stuff like this, but I will freely admit that I'm, probably pretty far out there on the edge of gaming... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 04, 2016, 06:28:07 PM
chirine ba kal,
You realize your book could be a photo album too?
Like a graphic novel but with photos instead of drawn pictures. :eek:
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 04, 2016, 07:13:00 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;933817
chirine ba kal,
You realize your book could be a photo album too?
Like a graphic novel but with photos instead of drawn pictures. :eek:
=

Agreed; in a lot of respects, the miniatures have been a very important part of the story for decades. I used to do miniatures 'to order' to suit events in Phil's campaign, and on more then one occasion a figure or figures that I'd done 'on spec' became part of our adventures.

I had planned, from the beginning of the thing, to illustrate the action in the book with photos of the miniatures, especially as that way people would see what we saw on Phil's game table - I still have all those original figures, so you can see Captain Harchar the way Dave Arneson saw and played him.

On the other hand, the 'push-back' I've gotten over the years about my use of miniatures in RPGs hasn't been very encouraging no matter how I try to look at it.

We'll see, I guess.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 04, 2016, 08:18:09 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;933823

On the other hand, the 'push-back' I've gotten over the years about my use of miniatures in RPGs hasn't been very encouraging no matter how I try to look at it.

We'll see, I guess.

"Life is too short to dance with ugly women and pay attention to the wailing of the stupid".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 04, 2016, 08:58:03 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;933830
"Life is too short to dance with ugly women and pay attention to the wailing of the stupid".

"Most people are booger-eating morons who are unable to shit unassisted."

But Chirine is less of a professional curmudgeon than I am.  I've been in training since I was about 10.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 05, 2016, 06:14:00 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;933830
"Life is too short to dance with ugly women and pay attention to the wailing of the stupid".

I appreciate the sentiment, and agree with the latter part of it, however...

I married the "ugly woman", as she was described to me by more than a few of the people who know us, and we're still married after 25 years. As for the "wailing of the stupid", that's the reason why this is my only forum presence and why I don't participate in both the larger Internet and the vast majority gaming events that I'm told I must attend in order to be a real gamer.

And an observation, if I may be somewhat crude, but in the 'old curmudgeon' spirit I find myself in these days: I have found, in my now sixty years of life - tomorrow is my birthday, by the way - that 'ugly' and 'plain' women are usually better in the sack then 'pretty' ones. The former, in my experience, appreciate the opportunity to excel, and the latter spend all their time worrying about mussing their hair.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 05, 2016, 06:20:58 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;933837
"Most people are booger-eating morons who are unable to shit unassisted."

But Chirine is less of a professional curmudgeon than I am.  I've been in training since I was about 10.

Agreed. I really hadn't started becoming an old curmudgeon until I started interacting with gamers again in the early 2005 - 2006 time frame; but under the influence of so many of them I really think I've completed the transformation from 'nice guy chump' to 'cranky old curmudgeon' over the past decade. There have been so many transformative moments in that time period, and they really have had a wonderful effect - I spend so little on gaming, these days, down from $250 to $500 a month to the current $10 to $25. So, I'd say that it's been very beneficial. The FLGS might have a different viewpoint, of course, but so it goes...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 05, 2016, 08:01:26 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;933968
I really think I've completed the transformation from 'nice guy chump' to 'cranky old curmudgeon' over the past decade.


"Trained you well, I have."  :D

Viz gaming... I have come to really really miss what we had at the University of Minnesota for those 15 years or so.  An open venue at no cost with a crowd of up to 40 people to recruit from... I think most people would gleefully commit bloody-handed mayhem for a chance like that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 05, 2016, 08:13:05 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;933974
"Trained you well, I have."  :D

Viz gaming... I have come to really really miss what we had at the University of Minnesota for those 15 years or so.  An open venue at no cost with a crowd of up to 40 people to recruit from... I think most people would gleefully commit bloody-handed mayhem for a chance like that.

Agreed. It was a very different time and place. These days, you can get sort of the same feel at Gary Con, with the emphasis on RPGs of course.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 05, 2016, 08:32:43 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;933823
On the other hand, the 'push-back' I've gotten over the years about my use of miniatures in RPGs hasn't been very encouraging no matter how I try to look at it.

We'll see, I guess.


If you enjoy them and you enjoy setting up the scenes, why would you let what other people think or say stop you?
Who's book/story is it anyway?

I could see if you had paid for market research and they said don't, maybe it would matter but, as far as I understand it, the book is a labor of love.
Do what you love and let others deal with it as suits them.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on December 06, 2016, 09:04:08 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;933967
in my now sixty years of life - tomorrow is my birthday


Happy Birthday! Hope you have a good one!



btw, how do you celebrate birthdays on Tekumel?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 06, 2016, 09:59:50 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;934005
Happy Birthday! Hope you have a good one!



btw, how do you celebrate birthdays on Tekumel?


 Otulengba!!! HappyHappyBirthday!!! Curmudgeon!!! Many More!!!

Celebrate with a party depending on your status and station in life!!! And kaitars available to you...Enjoy!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on December 06, 2016, 10:03:17 AM
Happy Birthday!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on December 06, 2016, 10:43:11 AM
Happy Birthday Chirine! I hope you have a great one. :D

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron on December 06, 2016, 11:44:07 AM
Yes, have a joyous sitting among friends!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 06, 2016, 01:16:21 PM
Happy "Only Two Years Until Social Security Kicks In."

All anyone needs to know about MY life is that Social Security will be a substantial income increase, even at age 62.

115 days, but who's counting.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2016, 06:32:07 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;933976
If you enjoy them and you enjoy setting up the scenes, why would you let what other people think or say stop you?
Who's book/story is it anyway?

I could see if you had paid for market research and they said don't, maybe it would matter but, as far as I understand it, the book is a labor of love.
Do what you love and let others deal with it as suits them.
=

Because I'm tired of being insulted to my own face in my own home about my own hobbies. It's my book, about our adventures, but you'd be amazed at the number of people who have demanded to be included in the book - despite their not playing with us - as they are entitled to be included as they are Very Important People In Gaming.

It is indeed; I am doing the book simply for the fun of it, but the screaming and shouting and reeling and writhing and fainting in coils from various locals and on-lone people has been both bizarre and incredible. You'd think I had some sort of plan for world domination.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2016, 06:32:43 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;934005
Happy Birthday! Hope you have a good one!



btw, how do you celebrate birthdays on Tekumel?

Thank you! It has been, and I'm very pleased with the day.

Parties and festivities for one's nameday; in Chirine's case, his Senior Wife has a habit of surprising him by marrying him off to one of her friends who needs a place.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2016, 06:37:53 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;934012
Otulengba!!! HappyHappyBirthday!!! Curmudgeon!!! Many More!!!

Celebrate with a party depending on your status and station in life!!! And kaitars available to you...Enjoy!!!

H;0)

Thank you! The family got me that lovely galley, a great book on the "John Carter" movie, some amazing figures from Dark Fable and Forge Of Ice, and - Tekumel connection, here - a Blue Fish. Long flowing fins, grumpy expression, and all. It's also silicone, so we don't have to worry about the care and feeding. (See also the Gate of the Blue Fish, in Khirgar.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2016, 06:38:30 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;934013
Happy Birthday!

Thank you!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2016, 06:39:20 PM
Quote from: Baron;934028
Yes, have a joyous sitting among friends!

Thank you! Just a quiet night here at the house with me and The Missus, and all of you on-line... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2016, 06:40:28 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;934035
Happy "Only Two Years Until Social Security Kicks In."

All anyone needs to know about MY life is that Social Security will be a substantial income increase, even at age 62.

115 days, but who's counting.

I can understand that; the co-pays for the Missus are our single biggest expense.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron Opal on December 06, 2016, 06:41:47 PM
Happy Birthday!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;934069
Thank you! Just a quiet night here at the house with me and The Missus, and all of you on-line... :)

Aww, thanks Chirine.  ;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 06, 2016, 07:14:34 PM
First, Uncle: Happy Birthday!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;933967
I appreciate the sentiment, and agree with the latter part of it, however...

I married the "ugly woman", as she was described to me by more than a few of the people who know us, and we're still married after 25 years. As for the "wailing of the stupid", that's the reason why this is my only forum presence and why I don't participate in both the larger Internet and the vast majority gaming events that I'm told I must attend in order to be a real gamer.

And an observation, if I may be somewhat crude, but in the 'old curmudgeon' spirit I find myself in these days: I have found, in my now sixty years of life - tomorrow is my birthday, by the way - that 'ugly' and 'plain' women are usually better in the sack then 'pretty' ones. The former, in my experience, appreciate the opportunity to excel, and the latter spend all their time worrying about mussing their hair.

Eh...I have zero experience with "ugly women" ("plain" is another story). This was just a riff at one of Gronan's regular jokes:).
As for the wailing of the stupid, the most important part is to not let it affect you. If the stupid are unhappy, you're doing your job right.
People that are trying to teach you how to be "a real gamer" are stupid by definition, so go ahead. Make them unhappy!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;933968
Agreed. I really hadn't started becoming an old curmudgeon until I started interacting with gamers again in the early 2005 - 2006 time frame; but under the influence of so many of them I really think I've completed the transformation from 'nice guy chump' to 'cranky old curmudgeon' over the past decade. There have been so many transformative moments in that time period, and they really have had a wonderful effect - I spend so little on gaming, these days, down from $250 to $500 a month to the current $10 to $25. So, I'd say that it's been very beneficial. The FLGS might have a different viewpoint, of course, but so it goes...

There are some groups of people out there that the more you interact with, the more you appreciate the negative points of view. "Self-appointed Real Gamrz (TM)" are among them...;)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;934065
Because I'm tired of being insulted to my own face in my own home about my own hobbies. It's my book, about our adventures, but you'd be amazed at the number of people who have demanded to be included in the book - despite their not playing with us - as they are entitled to be included as they are Very Important People In Gaming.

It is indeed; I am doing the book simply for the fun of it, but the screaming and shouting and reeling and writhing and fainting in coils from various locals and on-lone people has been both bizarre and incredible. You'd think I had some sort of plan for world domination.

People insult those smarter than them, Uncle. Enjoy the wailing of the stupid! Ot's the best proof you're doing something right, IME;).
Or just write your book the way you would and then add a couple paragraphs at the end. "So-and-so demanded to be included despite not having participated, because they're Important People. Well, here's how I chose to include them. You can judge their contribution for yourselves":D!

Might require taping your conversations, but oh, the delicious tears you could drink afterwards!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 06, 2016, 08:10:01 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;934078
First, Uncle: Happy Birthday!

Eh...I have zero experience with "ugly women" ("plain" is another story). This was just a riff at one of Gronan's regular jokes:).
As for the wailing of the stupid, the most important part is to not let it affect you. If the stupid are unhappy, you're doing your job right.
People that are trying to teach you how to be "a real gamer" are stupid by definition, so go ahead. Make them unhappy!

There are some groups of people out there that the more you interact with, the more you appreciate the negative points of view. "Self-appointed Real Gamrz (TM)" are among them...;)

People insult those smarter than them, Uncle. Enjoy the wailing of the stupid! Ot's the best proof you're doing something right, IME;).
Or just write your book the way you would and then add a couple paragraphs at the end. "So-and-so demanded to be included despite not having participated, because they're Important People. Well, here's how I chose to include them. You can judge their contribution for yourselves":D!

Might require taping your conversations, but oh, the delicious tears you could drink afterwards!


Thank you! :)

Understood; no offense taken or offered. I just have different life experiences then most people. My dad paid $5,000 for me in '56, on the grey market; I have the original contract and cancelled check. I also have various birth certificates, with very different dates of issue. They all do seem to agree that I arrived on Dec. 6th, though. So, I really am a bastard, and I have the Official Paperwork to prove it. Very Tsolyani, really. :)

Agreed with all your points. The book will tell our stories, and some of Phil's. Nothing more, nothing less.

And I have been taping conversations for decades; you would be simply amazed at what people will say in front of an open microphone that they know is there and recording... :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 06, 2016, 09:53:15 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;934067
Thank you! The family got me that lovely galley, a great book on the "John Carter" movie, some amazing figures from Dark Fable and Forge Of Ice, and - Tekumel connection, here - a Blue Fish. Long flowing fins, grumpy expression, and all. It's also silicone, so we don't have to worry about the care and feeding. (See also the Gate of the Blue Fish, in Khirgar.)

Ahh, Most Excellent Joyful Sitting Amongst Family!!! Enjoy Uncle. Be well!!!

H;0)

PS Sometimes a bit of spirits helps too!!! I toast to you!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 06, 2016, 11:30:19 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;934086
Thank you! :)

Understood; no offense taken or offered. I just have different life experiences then most people. My dad paid $5,000 for me in '56, on the grey market; I have the original contract and cancelled check. I also have various birth certificates, with very different dates of issue. They all do seem to agree that I arrived on Dec. 6th, though. So, I really am a bastard, and I have the Official Paperwork to prove it. Very Tsolyani, really. :)

Agreed with all your points. The book will tell our stories, and some of Phil's. Nothing more, nothing less.

And I have been taping conversations for decades; you would be simply amazed at what people will say in front of an open microphone that they know is there and recording... :eek:

Heh.

This is a delicate question, but I'm fairly sure you know I really care... is your dad still with us, or has he passed on?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 07, 2016, 06:41:06 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;934101
Ahh, Most Excellent Joyful Sitting Amongst Family!!! Enjoy Uncle. Be well!!!

H;0)

PS Sometimes a bit of spirits helps too!!! I toast to you!!!


Thank you!

I can't have alcohol, due to my medications, but that's not a big deal. Enjoy for me, if you would... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 07, 2016, 06:44:10 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;934108
Heh.

This is a delicate question, but I'm fairly sure you know I really care... is your dad still with us, or has he passed on?

No problem. He had his last big whammer of a heart attack and passed away the day after Thanksgiving in '97; I had to sign off on the morphine that he wanted to end the pain. Made for a very tough time. I do miss him, especially on days like today; he survived everything that the Pacific War could throw at him.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 07, 2016, 11:37:47 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;934086
Thank you! :)

Understood; no offense taken or offered. I just have different life experiences then most people. My dad paid $5,000 for me in '56, on the grey market; I have the original contract and cancelled check. I also have various birth certificates, with very different dates of issue. They all do seem to agree that I arrived on Dec. 6th, though. So, I really am a bastard, and I have the Official Paperwork to prove it. Very Tsolyani, really. :)

Agreed with all your points. The book will tell our stories, and some of Phil's. Nothing more, nothing less.

And I have been taping conversations for decades; you would be simply amazed at what people will say in front of an open microphone that they know is there and recording... :eek:

How did the "paying for a kid" trick work back in the 50ies, Uncle? (Also, quite un-Tsolyani, I'm sure most of us don't care about the legalities around your heritage - I can certainly guarantee for myself;).
But if we can turn it into game fodder...I have already used Chirine, shortly, in a campaign, and it worked great, so why wouldn't we do it one more time:D?

And the taping part is wonderful:)! Consult a lawyer, but I doubt anything can stop you from publishing a list as I suggested...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;934135
No problem. He had his last big whammer of a heart attack and passed away the day after Thanksgiving in '97; I had to sign off on the morphine that he wanted to end the pain. Made for a very tough time. I do miss him, especially on days like today; he survived everything that the Pacific War could throw at him.

He sounds like a great man to me, FWIW.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 07, 2016, 03:28:14 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;934135
No problem. He had his last big whammer of a heart attack and passed away the day after Thanksgiving in '97; I had to sign off on the morphine that he wanted to end the pain. Made for a very tough time. I do miss him, especially on days like today; he survived everything that the Pacific War could throw at him.

Ah.  My deepest and sincerest condolences.  He was quite a man.  God grant that he may rest in peace, and rise in Glory.

And survived the Pacific with an elfin sense of humor intact.  Remember the time we got some firework rockets with bent fins and they proceeded to chase us all over your dad's back yard while he stood there and laughed himself sick at our frantic scramblings for cover?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 08, 2016, 01:31:29 PM
Do you feel that the high tech as presented in Traveller is too "modern" of a portrayal for Tekumel?
Should there be more knobs, sliders and switches on "high tech" equipment?

What about robots? We have Ru'un and Yeleth as examples.
From your experience, are robots humanoid or more built for a function?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 08, 2016, 05:34:36 PM
From AsenRG: How did the "paying for a kid" trick work back in the 50ies, Uncle? (Also, quite un-Tsolyani, I'm sure most of us don't care about the legalities around your heritage - I can certainly guarantee for myself;).

My about-to-be mother was unhappy that all her friends were having babies, and she wasn't. She also didn't want to have to do all that messy stuff, and wanted something 'off the shelf'. My about-to-be dad mentioned this to a friend of his, who was a judge, and who happened to know a young unmarried lady who was 'in a family way' - and with a guy from the wrong side of the tracks, no less. A very specifically-worded contract was drawn up, the judge got $2,500 for fixing the paperwork and legal stuff, and my birth mother got all her medical expenses paid for and a $2,500 payment. All very grey market, and dubiously legal, but they got away with it because the only applicable laws were the old anti-slavery statutes that we're still on the books. The authorities didn't want the enormous scandal that a trial under those statutes would have cause, so here I am.

The Tsolyani don't worry about 'bastardy'; one is born into a clan, and that's pretty much that.

But if we can turn it into game fodder...I have already used Chirine, shortly, in a campaign, and it worked great, so why wouldn't we do it one more time:D?

Feel free! Let me  know if you need anything.

And the taping part is wonderful:)! Consult a lawyer, but I doubt anything can stop you from publishing a list as I suggested...

I follow the state and federal laws on this, and it's saved my bacon on a number of occasions. The phrase, "let's play the tape, then" has an amazing effect on people.

He sounds like a great man to me, FWIW.

Both he and my stepfather were very special people, and I miss them both.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 08, 2016, 05:41:34 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;934176
Ah.  My deepest and sincerest condolences.  He was quite a man.  God grant that he may rest in peace, and rise in Glory.

And survived the Pacific with an elfin sense of humor intact.  Remember the time we got some firework rockets with bent fins and they proceeded to chase us all over your dad's back yard while he stood there and laughed himself sick at our frantic scramblings for cover?

Agreed!

And yes, it was a very special Fourth of july.

His sense of humor could pop out at the most unexpected moments. When I was signing up for Army ROTC, the FBI was very concerned over my ten identical fingerprints and lack of proper documentation. My dad was 'invited' in so as to prove that I was a real person; they asked him for his ID, and he fixed the captain doing the interview with a stern gaze and asked him what his clearance was. The captain did a double take, and after an exchange of code phrases and hushed phone calls to unlisted phone numbers, my dad finally revealed his US government ID. Which was from the Atomic Energy Commission, and had a clearance level so high you had to have a 'Top Secret' rating just to look at the thing.

So, what was my dad doing? Do a Google search for 'SNAP-25'. My dad helped take us to the moon, and I still have the slide rule and drafting instruments that he used to do it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron on December 08, 2016, 05:48:22 PM
Hmm, the government is quite secret. When I google Snap-25 all I get is something on genetics. Although the suggested search adds the words 'atomic bomb,' when I try that search I still just get the genetics. Well played, government.

My father was in that oxymoronic organization, Army Intelligence, during the Cold War. He was proud to tell me that he had a class Q clearance, and knew where all the silos were.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 08, 2016, 05:51:57 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;934256
Do you feel that the high tech as presented in Traveller is too "modern" of a portrayal for Tekumel?
Should there be more knobs, sliders and switches on "high tech" equipment?

What about robots? We have Ru'un and Yeleth as examples.
From your experience, are robots humanoid or more built for a function?
=

Never played Traveller, really, so I'll hazard a guess here. I'd say 'yes', because Phil's view of the technology of the Ancients was a lot more 'Art Deco Streamline Moderne' then anything else. There are not a lot of immediately identifiable controls on his devices, and it a lot of cases we couldn't even begin to figure out what the thing was, much less what it did and how it worked. I think if you go to the website of the Minneapolis Institute of Art you can see a lot of examples of this technology, or look up the 1939 World's Fair. For Phil, that was what the future was going to look like.

Which was, it has to be said, very unsatisfying for a great number of Tekumel fans over the years, who expected that Tekumel's high tech would look like Star Trek, Star Wars, or anime rather then the 1940s and 1950s scientifiction, space opera, or ERB books that Phil had grown up with and been inspired by. In a lot of the games I used to run at conventions and such, I had to graft on a lot of knobs, etc. to keep the punters happy.

Phi's 'robots' range from the mechanical to the humanoid, depending on their function. We ran into and were chased by everything from the very humanoid Yeleth to the very 'mechanoid' combat Ru'un to the simplest of garbage collection robots. Here again, I'd suggest looking at 1940s and 1950s SF publications - the 'pulps', as it were - for the kind of thing that Phil described to us.

Does this help, at all?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 08, 2016, 06:19:27 PM
1:58 in this trailer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vEI1GZraAk
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on December 08, 2016, 06:26:43 PM
Quote from: Baron;934301
Hmm, the government is quite secret. When I google Snap-25 all I get is something on genetics. Although the suggested search adds the words 'atomic bomb,' when I try that search I still just get the genetics. Well played, government.

My father was in that oxymoronic organization, Army Intelligence, during the Cold War. He was proud to tell me that he had a class Q clearance, and knew where all the silos were.
Try SNAP 27 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_for_Nuclear_Auxiliary_Power).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 08, 2016, 07:41:51 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;934303
Does this help, at all?

Certainly
More Flash Gordon then.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 09, 2016, 05:38:43 PM
Quote from: Baron;934301
Hmm, the government is quite secret. When I google Snap-25 all I get is something on genetics. Although the suggested search adds the words 'atomic bomb,' when I try that search I still just get the genetics. Well played, government.

My father was in that oxymoronic organization, Army Intelligence, during the Cold War. He was proud to tell me that he had a class Q clearance, and knew where all the silos were.


Try "SNAP" Apollo for the search terms - oh, we've already had help on this! The painting of the unit that I have, which he got from NASA, says '25'.

Yep. Dad had the same clearance, but was on the engineering side. His stories about atomic aircraft ("Steam Bird") and open-cycle steam locomotives were both hilarious and terrifying.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 09, 2016, 05:40:37 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;934310
1:58 in this trailer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vEI1GZraAk

Yes, indeed! :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 09, 2016, 05:42:21 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;934312
Try SNAP 27 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_for_Nuclear_Auxiliary_Power).


There you are! Thank you! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 09, 2016, 05:51:24 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;934322
Certainly
More Flash Gordon then.
=

Very much so! When I sat down and read ERB's "Barsoom" series and watched all of those wonderful black-and-white episodes of the serials, I got a much better feel for what Phil had had in mind - it's what he'd grown up with, and always loved. Phil had no idea how technology actually worked, and just had the devices do what they did - usually with pretty comic consequences for us.

In later years, the 1980s and 1990s, Phil was more then a little put out by fans who took him to task for not knowing exactly how any of the devices of the Ancients worked. (The on and off discussion about the Three-Light Drive is an example of this. Phil's answer: "I dunno. A ship goes into drive, and you get three flashes of light. It gets to where it wants to go, comes out of the drive, and you get three flashes of light. That's why it's called the Three-Light Drive". He was repeatedly told that this was not a good answer, and he needed to come up with something more technical.) He was even less amused when he was told by 'real fans' that Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, and Barsoom were all passe, and not what counted as SF.

Which I thought was too bad; it was glorious fun...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on December 09, 2016, 07:33:59 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;934424
Very much so! When I sat down and read ERB's "Barsoom" series and watched all of those wonderful black-and-white episodes of the serials, I got a much better feel for what Phil had had in mind - it's what he'd grown up with, and always loved. Phil had no idea how technology actually worked, and just had the devices do what they did - usually with pretty comic consequences for us.



Which I thought was too bad; it was glorious fun...


Chirine,

Before finding this thread I had no know idea how heavily influenced Tekumel was by Flash Gordon, Barsoom, et al. Funny enough, when I read MoG and FS for the first time Yul Brynner and Ming the Merciless popped into my head whenever the Baron Ald or Lord Fu Shi'i, respectively, were being discussed.  I still picture Lord Fu Shi'i as Charles Middleton.
I recently went back and watched a lot of the films that you have recommended and tried to spot the influences on Tsolyanu and Tekumel . You are bang on when you say they inspired Phil. The original Thief of Baghdad (1924) could easily be part of  a Tekumel campaign. The same with Haji Baba, Ben Hur, The Ten Commandments and Land of the Pharaohs, as well as parts of the original Mummy and Wizard of Oz. I could easily see Nyelmu's guards in the Garden of the Weeping Snows being inspired by the Winkies (the Wicked Witch of the West's guards). In all of these movies I see stuff that could easily be used in a Tekumel game. An important NPC in my game is heavily modelled on Ahmed (Douglas Fairbanks' character), right down to the gestures and stunts. Great resources to mine for when trying to create a good Tekumel ambience for a campaign, as far as I'm concerned.
I'm currently enjoying a 13 part Flash Gordon serial from 1936 on You Tube: Flash Gordon and the Planet of Terror. Great stuff! Tonnes of inspiration.:p

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on December 09, 2016, 07:37:05 PM
Baron Ald in a quiet moment, plotting his next move against Tsolyanu.:D

[ATTACH=CONFIG]596[/ATTACH]

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 09, 2016, 07:39:03 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;934299
From AsenRG: How did the "paying for a kid" trick work back in the 50ies, Uncle? (Also, quite un-Tsolyani, I'm sure most of us don't care about the legalities around your heritage - I can certainly guarantee for myself;).

My about-to-be mother was unhappy that all her friends were having babies, and she wasn't. She also didn't want to have to do all that messy stuff, and wanted something 'off the shelf'. My about-to-be dad mentioned this to a friend of his, who was a judge, and who happened to know a young unmarried lady who was 'in a family way' - and with a guy from the wrong side of the tracks, no less. A very specifically-worded contract was drawn up, the judge got $2,500 for fixing the paperwork and legal stuff, and my birth mother got all her medical expenses paid for and a $2,500 payment. All very grey market, and dubiously legal, but they got away with it because the only applicable laws were the old anti-slavery statutes that we're still on the books. The authorities didn't want the enormous scandal that a trial under those statutes would have cause, so here I am.

Oh, my, isn't that a classical reason:D!

Quote
The Tsolyani don't worry about 'bastardy'; one is born into a clan, and that's pretty much that.

I wanted to say "do they ever care about legalities"...:D (Unlike people around here, I'm lucky to add).
Of course, your father did it right according to the Tsolyani way! In a way, even the circumstances of your birh were Tsolyani-styled...

Quote
But if we can turn it into game fodder...I have already used Chirine, shortly, in a campaign, and it worked great, so why wouldn't we do it one more time:D?

Feel free! Let me  know if you need anything.

I'll see what I can do, Uncle:).

Quote
And the taping part is wonderful:)! Consult a lawyer, but I doubt anything can stop you from publishing a list as I suggested...

I follow the state and federal laws on this, and it's saved my bacon on a number of occasions. The phrase, "let's play the tape, then" has an amazing effect on people.

I can imagine:).

Quote
He sounds like a great man to me, FWIW.

Both he and my stepfather were very special people, and I miss them both.

As is to be expected. Great people are always missed!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;934300
Agreed!

And yes, it was a very special Fourth of july.

His sense of humor could pop out at the most unexpected moments. When I was signing up for Army ROTC, the FBI was very concerned over my ten identical fingerprints and lack of proper documentation. My dad was 'invited' in so as to prove that I was a real person; they asked him for his ID, and he fixed the captain doing the interview with a stern gaze and asked him what his clearance was. The captain did a double take, and after an exchange of code phrases and hushed phone calls to unlisted phone numbers, my dad finally revealed his US government ID. Which was from the Atomic Energy Commission, and had a clearance level so high you had to have a 'Top Secret' rating just to look at the thing.

So, what was my dad doing? Do a Google search for 'SNAP-25'. My dad helped take us to the moon, and I still have the slide rule and drafting instruments that he used to do it.

In a way, that's also totally Tsolyani. Just substitute the captain for an OAL agent;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;934303
Never played Traveller, really, so I'll hazard a guess here. I'd say 'yes', because Phil's view of the technology of the Ancients was a lot more 'Art Deco Streamline Moderne' then anything else. There are not a lot of immediately identifiable controls on his devices, and it a lot of cases we couldn't even begin to figure out what the thing was, much less what it did and how it worked. I think if you go to the website of the Minneapolis Institute of Art you can see a lot of examples of this technology, or look up the 1939 World's Fair. For Phil, that was what the future was going to look like.

Which was, it has to be said, very unsatisfying for a great number of Tekumel fans over the years, who expected that Tekumel's high tech would look like Star Trek, Star Wars, or anime rather then the 1940s and 1950s scientifiction, space opera, or ERB books that Phil had grown up with and been inspired by. In a lot of the games I used to run at conventions and such, I had to graft on a lot of knobs, etc. to keep the punters happy.

Phi's 'robots' range from the mechanical to the humanoid, depending on their function. We ran into and were chased by everything from the very humanoid Yeleth to the very 'mechanoid' combat Ru'un to the simplest of garbage collection robots. Here again, I'd suggest looking at 1940s and 1950s SF publications - the 'pulps', as it were - for the kind of thing that Phil described to us.

Does this help, at all?

I'd suggest, in turn, doing a search for "Art Deco Streamline Moderne".
I just did, and my players are going to hate the next Underworld expedition to an unknown location. Though I was just looking at tables...:D

Quote from: chirine ba kal;934424
Very much so! When I sat downb and read ERB's "Barsoom" series and watched all of those wonderful black-and-white episodes of the serials, I got a much better feel for what Phil had had in mind - it's what he'd grown up with, and always loved. Phil had no idea how technology actually worked, and just had the devices do what they did - usually with pretty comic consequences for us.

In later years, the 1980s and 1990s, Phil was more then a little put out by fans who took him to task for not knowing exactly how any of the devices of the Ancients worked. (The on and off discussion about the Three-Light Drive is an example of this. Phil's answer: "I dunno. A ship goes into drive, and you get three flashes of light. It gets to where it wants to go, comes out of the drive, and you get three flashes of light. That's why it's called the Three-Light Drive". He was repeatedly told that this was not a good answer, and he needed to come up with something more technical.) He was even less amused when he was told by 'real fans' that Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, and Barsoom were all passe, and not what counted as SF.

Which I thought was too bad; it was glorious fun...

Phil, it seems, liked "softer" Sci-Fi, focusing more on what humans do with technology. In a way, he knew what humans do with technology in situations where it's a scarce resource - from his years in South Asia...so it was more or less a story to him, with the PCs as the "wild cards".

The fans, it seems, wanted "harder" Sci-Fi, focusing on how technology works, and what it does to humans. And they had no such background to fall back on, so to them, it was an exploration "what you can do with this".

Two viewpoints, informed by different life experiences, coming into a clash...what more can one say?

Their views on Barsoom and the like, though, were totally outrageous!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on December 10, 2016, 01:01:59 AM
Science fiction writers and fans spent the late sixties and early seventies trying very hard to be a serious, adult, form of entertainment.  Then Star Wars came along and proved that all sf really needed to be embraced by the general public was Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon with a better special effects budget.  I have mixed feelings about it.  I'm not fond of intellectualism to the exclusion of fun or anti-intellectualism to the exclusion of reason.  But I am a big fan of Isaac Asimov, Larry Niven, and Robert Heinlein.  Clarke's always left me cold for some reason.  I've read a lot of Asimov's essays and I think he makes some good points against Star Wars and Battle Star Galactica, "how do they get people into these one man death traps?"

But there will always be people who struggle with the idea that these things are childish.  There will always be those who try to raise their fun to an art and look down on those who do not.  Really, that might be a strong argument for gaming being an art form.  If it stops being fun it just might be art.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 10, 2016, 07:58:27 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;934430
Chirine,

Before finding this thread I had no know idea how heavily influenced Tekumel was by Flash Gordon, Barsoom, et al. Funny enough, when I read MoG and FS for the first time Yul Brynner and Ming the Merciless popped into my head whenever the Baron Ald or Lord Fu Shi'i, respectively, were being discussed.  I still picture Lord Fu Shi'i as Charles Middleton.
I recently went back and watched a lot of the films that you have recommended and tried to spot the influences on Tsolyanu and Tekumel . You are bang on when you say they inspired Phil. The original Thief of Baghdad (1924) could easily be part of  a Tekumel campaign. The same with Haji Baba, Ben Hur, The Ten Commandments and Land of the Pharaohs, as well as parts of the original Mummy and Wizard of Oz. I could easily see Nyelmu's guards in the Garden of the Weeping Snows being inspired by the Winkies (the Wicked Witch of the West's guards). In all of these movies I see stuff that could easily be used in a Tekumel game. An important NPC in my game is heavily modelled on Ahmed (Douglas Fairbanks' character), right down to the gestures and stunts. Great resources to mine for when trying to create a good Tekumel ambience for a campaign, as far as I'm concerned.
I'm currently enjoying a 13 part Flash Gordon serial from 1936 on You Tube: Flash Gordon and the Planet of Terror. Great stuff! Tonnes of inspiration.:p

Shemek.

Wonderful! You're following in Phil's footsteps, here! I got a very real appreciation for early F/SF from Phil; it's what he'd been reading and watching when he was a kid, and then built on when he went to South Asia.

For example, I knew nothing about the '39 Fair, what with the Trylon and Perisphere, until Phil talked about how he saw 'The Future'. There's a direct link with "Space Viking" by Piper, as the vast majority of Phil's starships were spherical, while the in-system ships - the 'landers' were classic Deco 'towers'.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]599[/ATTACH]
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 10, 2016, 08:00:11 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;934431
Baron Ald in a quiet moment, plotting his next move against Tsolyanu.:D

[ATTACH=CONFIG]596[/ATTACH]

Shemek


Sure does look like him, doesn't it! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 10, 2016, 08:09:14 AM
From AsenRG:
Oh, my, isn't that a classical reason:D!

She was very, very much all about her social prestige and position in society. (Still is, too.) I was merely a fashion accessory, like a name brand hanbag or pair of shoes.

I wanted to say "do they ever care about legalities"...:D (Unlike people around here, I'm lucky to add).
Of course, your father did it right according to the Tsolyani way! In a way, even the circumstances of your birh were Tsolyani-styled...


Agreed. The Tsolyani do care about some things, very much, but they are different things then what we'd deem important. Which made Tekumel so alien to us Midwestern Americans, back in the day...

In a way, that's also totally Tsolyani. Just substitute the captain for an OAL agent;).

Very much so. When I told Phil the story, he laughed until he cried. He and my dad got along quite well.

I'd suggest, in turn, doing a search for "Art Deco Streamline Moderne".
I just did, and my players are going to hate the next Underworld expedition to an unknown location. Though I was just looking at tables...:D


Yep. It'll be an eye-opener for them, that's for sure.

Phil, it seems, liked "softer" Sci-Fi, focusing more on what humans do with technology. In a way, he knew what humans do with technology in situations where it's a scarce resource - from his years in South Asia...so it was more or less a story to him, with the PCs as the "wild cards".

The fans, it seems, wanted "harder" Sci-Fi, focusing on how technology works, and what it does to humans. And they had no such background to fall back on, so to them, it was an exploration "what you can do with this".

Two viewpoints, informed by different life experiences, coming into a clash...what more can one say?

Their views on Barsoom and the like, though, were totally outrageous!


Agreed. Phil liked the F/SF he'd grown up with, where the hardware was there to serve the plot and the characters, not the be-all and end-all of the thing.

It just got old for him to get the letters, phone calls, and visits and then be told that the way he was running his creation was all wrong, and not 'serious' F/SF. Never got that from the pro authors, just from the 'serious' fans.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 10, 2016, 08:11:04 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;934452
Science fiction writers and fans spent the late sixties and early seventies trying very hard to be a serious, adult, form of entertainment.  Then Star Wars came along and proved that all sf really needed to be embraced by the general public was Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon with a better special effects budget.  I have mixed feelings about it.  I'm not fond of intellectualism to the exclusion of fun or anti-intellectualism to the exclusion of reason.  But I am a big fan of Isaac Asimov, Larry Niven, and Robert Heinlein.  Clarke's always left me cold for some reason.  I've read a lot of Asimov's essays and I think he makes some good points against Star Wars and Battle Star Galactica, "how do they get people into these one man death traps?"

But there will always be people who struggle with the idea that these things are childish.  There will always be those who try to raise their fun to an art and look down on those who do not.  Really, that might be a strong argument for gaming being an art form.  If it stops being fun it just might be art.

Agreed, and very well put. Based on what I see at the local FLGS, Gygax and Arneson would have no place in today's fandom or gaming. They just weren't 'serious' enough.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 10, 2016, 10:50:30 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;934452
If it stops being fun it just might be art.

Good point!
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 10, 2016, 11:27:04 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;934452
Really, that might be a strong argument for gaming being an art form.  If it stops being fun it just might be art.

No, if games stop being fun, you stop playing them, because they suck:).
And you move to better games;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;934465
From AsenRG:
Oh, my, isn't that a classical reason:D!

she was very, very much all about her social prestige and position in society. (Still is, too.) I was merely a fashion accessory, like a name brand hanbag or pair of shoes.

Yeah, that's why I said "classical". I've known such women, myself, and there's a couple NPCs I modeled after them over the years...:D

Quote
I wanted to say "do they ever care about legalities"...:D (Unlike people around here, I'm lucky to add).
Of course, your father did it right according to the Tsolyani way! In a way, even the circumstances of your birh were Tsolyani-styled...


Agreed. The Tsolyani do care about some things, very much, but they are different things then what we'd deem important. Which made Tekumel so alien to us Midwestern Americans, back in the day...

Yeah, but I find it increasingly funny that the things I care about align better with the Tsolyani POV than the "modern American"...at least in this case.

Quote
In a way, that's also totally Tsolyani. Just substitute the captain for an OAL agent;).
Very much so. When I told Phil the story, he laughed until he cried. He and my dad got along quite well.

I fail to be surprised at them seeing eye to eye...

Quote
I'd suggest, in turn, doing a search for "Art Deco Streamline Moderne".
I just did, and my players are going to hate the next Underworld expedition to an unknown location. Though I was just looking at tables...:D


Yep. It'll be an eye-opener for them, that's for sure.

Oh, they know the style better than me, I suspect. What they might not be expecting is me using it.

Quote
Phil, it seems, liked "softer" Sci-Fi, focusing more on what humans do with technology. In a way, he knew what humans do with technology in situations where it's a scarce resource - from his years in South Asia...so it was more or less a story to him, with the PCs as the "wild cards".

The fans, it seems, wanted "harder" Sci-Fi, focusing on how technology works, and what it does to humans. And they had no such background to fall back on, so to them, it was an exploration "what you can do with this".

Two viewpoints, informed by different life experiences, coming into a clash...what more can one say?

Their views on Barsoom and the like, though, were totally outrageous!


Agreed. Phil liked the F/SF he'd grown up with, where the hardware was there to serve the plot and the characters, not the be-all and end-all of the thing.

Well, in a way, Tekumel is "inversed serious SF".
Serious SF deals with the question how scientific progress will impact us.
Tekumel is a matter of how scientific regress and lack of raw materials might impact us.

Quote
It just got old for him to get the letters, phone calls, and visits and then be told that the way he was running his creation was all wrong, and not 'serious' F/SF. Never got that from the pro authors, just from the 'serious' fans.

I have some magical words for theses cases that he was probably too well-educated to use to their full effect: "Get lost!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on December 10, 2016, 11:43:15 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;934462
Wonderful! You're following in Phil's footsteps, here! I got a very real appreciation for early F/SF from Phil; it's what he'd been reading and watching when he was a kid, and then built on when he went to South Asia.

For example, I knew nothing about the '39 Fair, what with the Trylon and Perisphere, until Phil talked about how he saw 'The Future'. There's a direct link with "Space Viking" by Piper, as the vast majority of Phil's starships were spherical, while the in-system ships - the 'landers' were classic Deco 'towers'.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]598[/ATTACH]

I don't think the link works. Get an error message when I click on it.:confused:

I've been using things from the '39 Fair from when you first pointed this out as an inspiration for Tekumel. Another great resource to mine from.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 10, 2016, 06:20:31 PM
From AsenRG:
No, if games stop being fun, you stop playing them, because they suck:).
And you move to better games;).

Agreed. Gaming hasn't been fun for a long while, so I stopped. Haven't found anything better yet, so I just keep on building my models. Which is what I like, anyway.

Yeah, that's why I said "classical". I've known such women, myself, and there's a couple NPCs I modeled after them over the years...:D

Yep. It's probably why I find such people tiresome and irrelevant.

Yeah, but I find it increasingly funny that the things I care about align better with the Tsolyani POV than the "modern American"...at least in this case.

True; so do I. As Phil once said, "Chirine. you've gone native."

I fail to be surprised at them seeing eye to eye...

:)

Oh, they know the style better than me, I suspect. What they might not be expecting is me using it.

That will be a surprise! I wonder how they'll handle it?

Well, in a way, Tekumel is "inversed serious SF".
Serious SF deals with the question how scientific progress will impact us.
Tekumel is a matter of how scientific regress and lack of raw materials might impact us.


Interesting observation; I usually describe Tekumel as classic '40s and '50s F/SF, but I do think you're right here.

I have some magical words for theses cases that he was probably too well-educated to use to their full effect: "Get lost!"

In most cases, once he'd had enough they got his standard form letter that said, in effect: "You do what you want in your Tekumel and I'll do what I want in mine" and usually they'd drift off into the aether. I do the same thing myself, these days, with people who insist that I need to change my views, opinions, or games to fit into what they insist is what they need to see in their lives.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 10, 2016, 06:22:07 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;934486
I don't think the link works. Get an error message when I click on it.:confused:

I've been using things from the '39 Fair from when you first pointed this out as an inspiration for Tekumel. Another great resource to mine from.

Shemek

You weren't missing anything; it was a poster from the '39 Fair. I reloaded it, and it might work now.

Oh, yes! There's even a really cool video out there, showing color 'home movies' from the fair, and it's really cool and a great source for ideas.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on December 10, 2016, 06:49:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;934522
You weren't missing anything; it was a poster from the '39 Fair. I reloaded it, and it might work now.

Oh, yes! There's even a really cool video out there, showing color 'home movies' from the fair, and it's really cool and a great source for ideas.


I see it now. Thank you!

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on December 10, 2016, 08:02:20 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;934525
I see it now. Thank you!

Shemek


As a kid, my dad was able to go to the 1933 Worlds Fair in Chicago. Not quite the same Raymond Massey "Shapes of things" deco stylistic sensibility as in 1939, but the same shock of the new mentality, and the same slew of really bad, dangerous, don't do this at home ideas that were nowhere near ready for prime time. One thing I remember him describing was this, I guess it was a microwave grill, in the "homes of the future" area. Microwave grill. Honestly. My dad lived a good long life, but he was only a spectator. Sometimes I wonder about the poor guy who was demonstrating it. Probably paid 25¢ a day to lean over the darn thing for hours at a time cooking steaks. I wonder how long he lived after the fair was over.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 10, 2016, 08:57:08 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;934525
I see it now. Thank you!

Shemek

You're welcome! With my slow and unreliable Internet connection, I never can tell from here if something loaded or not. Having that extra set of eyes is very helpful! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 10, 2016, 08:59:58 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;934527
As a kid, my dad was able to go to the 1933 Worlds Fair in Chicago. Not quite the same Raymond Massey "Shapes of things" deco stylistic sensibility as in 1939, but the same shock of the new mentality, and the same slew of really bad, dangerous, don't do this at home ideas that were nowhere near ready for prime time. One thing I remember him describing was this, I guess it was a microwave grill, in the "homes of the future" area. Microwave grill. Honestly. My dad lived a good long life, but he was only a spectator. Sometimes I wonder about the poor guy who was demonstrating it. Probably paid 25¢ a day to lean over the darn thing for hours at a time cooking steaks. I wonder how long he lived after the fair was over.

Oh, wonderful story - except for the guy frying himself in front of the presumably unshielded radio transmitter, of course.

Phil's 'future' was just chock full of stuff like this, where if you didn't know what we were doing - and we didn't, of course! - you'd get really dead really fast.
Title: Today's fun...
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 10, 2016, 09:06:41 PM
Spent a lovely day working on the big Sakbe road set's large tower while doing the laundry, getting the battlement walls all done and figuring out how to do the ones on the little watchtowers. Had one of the Missus' late birthday gifts on the huge screen in the game room while I worked, the recent "Hercules" movie; lots of fun, and shows what happens when you attack formed bodies of infantry. Very enjoyable film, and I'm a little surprised it didn't get more notice and attention.

The other tardy gift that arrived is an amazing little camera set that's basically a three-meter long cable with a lens on the end. Hooks up to the tablet or the computer, and (as the Missus said) "It was only six bucks and now you can do views of the insides of your model buildings for people!"

Brings a new dimension to "I look around the corner of the door; what do I see..."

Have I mentioned just how much I appreciate her? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on December 10, 2016, 09:16:55 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;934527
As a kid, my dad was able to go to the 1933 Worlds Fair in Chicago. Not quite the same Raymond Massey "Shapes of things" deco stylistic sensibility as in 1939, but the same shock of the new mentality, and the same slew of really bad, dangerous, don't do this at home ideas that were nowhere near ready for prime time. One thing I remember him describing was this, I guess it was a microwave grill, in the "homes of the future" area. Microwave grill. Honestly. My dad lived a good long life, but he was only a spectator. Sometimes I wonder about the poor guy who was demonstrating it. Probably paid 25¢ a day to lean over the darn thing for hours at a time cooking steaks. I wonder how long he lived after the fair was over.


Probably not very long. Just like the Doctors that advocated smoking, or the fellows that built the first nuclear power plants, or were part of the early nuclear tests. Unfortunately this type of thing still goes on, and a lot of uninformed people get exposed or contaminated and the ones responsible are no where to be found after the fact. Two years ago my company was subcontracted to do some work at a famous local building, which was built in the 1920's and filled with asbestos. Now, I and those I am working with have enough experience to identify it, and enough sense to refuse to work around it if all of the correct safety precautions are not taken. These are quite involved and elaborate, and expensive. The owner's representative was quite cavalier and "assured" me that everything had been cleared from the area we were expected to work in. I could see it wasn't, and when I asked him to provide all of the reports for the evacuated zones, which are mandatory under local laws, he started stuttering and muttering... Unfortunately he hoodwinked some young tradesmen (apprentices, or just out of their time) to go into the area and do the work that we had refused.
On a lighter note, it would be interesting to figure out how to incorporate a microwave grill, like the one above, into the game. What kind of damage, healing, etc. The wonderful reaction when the warrior's steel sword comes into contact with the microwaves... I wonder, would it be like tin foil in a contemporary microwave oven?:eek:

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on December 10, 2016, 09:18:30 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;934529
You're welcome! With my slow and unreliable Internet connection, I never can tell from here if something loaded or not. Having that extra set of eyes is very helpful! :)


With my fancy new specs you get four extra eyes!:cool:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on December 10, 2016, 09:26:01 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;934530
Oh, wonderful story - except for the guy frying himself in front of the presumably unshielded radio transmitter, of course.

Phil's 'future' was just chock full of stuff like this, where if you didn't know what we were doing - and we didn't, of course! - you'd get really dead really fast.

I know, right?

Remember those heavy briefcase-style satellite phones? The ones where once the lid is up and you are transmitting, everyone has to stay away from *that* side of the phone? Damn, technology gets so archaic so fast.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on December 10, 2016, 09:36:48 PM
Well, in the pre-war era, everything sci fi is about mysterious "rays" so I expect there is enormous scope there. And not just for flashy-sparkly things, but delayed effects too....HPL and CAS stories are full of  weird exposure effects that only become apparent gradually with time...  not exactly what modern gamers might expect, but that might be a good thing, right?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on December 10, 2016, 09:45:51 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;934538
Well, in the pre-war era, everything sci fi is about mysterious "rays" so I expect there is enormous scope there. And not just for flashy-sparkly things, but delayed effects too....HPL and CAS stories are full of  weird exposure effects that only become apparent gradually with time...  not exactly what modern gamers might expect, but that might be a good thing, right?


Yes, very much so! These are the types of things my players curse me for.
"Oh, oh. Why are the slaves losing their hair?
Oh damnit, it must have been that f******g weird sound we heard coming out of the silver box.
I told you we should have let it be..."
Me: :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on December 10, 2016, 09:51:21 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;934533
Probably not very long. Just like the Doctors that advocated smoking, or the fellows that built the first nuclear power plants, or were part of the early nuclear tests. Unfortunately this type of thing still goes on, and a lot of uninformed people get exposed or contaminated and the ones responsible are no where to be found after the fact. Two years ago my company was subcontracted to do some work at a famous local building, which was built in the 1920's and filled with asbestos. Now, I and those I am working with have enough experience to identify it, and enough sense to refuse to work around it if all of the correct safety precautions are not taken. These are quite involved and elaborate, and expensive. The owner's representative was quite cavalier and "assured" me that everything had been cleared from the area we were expected to work in. I could see it wasn't, and when I asked him to provide all of the reports for the evacuated zones, which are mandatory under local laws, he started stuttering and muttering... Unfortunately he hoodwinked some young tradesmen (apprentices, or just out of their time) to go into the area and do the work that we had refused.
On a lighter note, it would be interesting to figure out how to incorporate a microwave grill, like the one above, into the game. What kind of damage, healing, etc. The wonderful reaction when the warrior's steel sword comes into contact with the microwaves... I wonder, would it be like tin foil in a contemporary microwave oven?:eek:

Shemek

I am with you, I really believe  in H&S culture, even when it sometimes goes over the top, because I remember when it didn't exist at all.

That said, as long as it is virtual, it would be sad if PCs started each dungeon crawl with a last-minute risk assessment, a toolbox meeting, and a refusal to do unsafe work!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron on December 10, 2016, 10:06:38 PM
Hmm, hair falling out...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on December 11, 2016, 12:31:33 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;934543
I am with you, I really believe  in H&S culture, even when it sometimes goes over the top, because I remember when it didn't exist at all.

That said, as long as it is virtual, it would be sad if PCs started each dungeon crawl with a last-minute risk assessment, a toolbox meeting, and a refusal to do unsafe work!

I remember those days as well. This is why I also tend err on the side of caution, and make those who report to me do the same.

Not every dungeon crawl. This for me would be in the realm of what Phil referred to as "Saturday Night Specials." Funny thing is my old gaming group used to be almost paranoid when doing dungeon crawls. It was actually kind of funny to watch. It got to the point where they literally would do, essentially, a safety huddle before going into a room. The good old days;)

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on December 11, 2016, 12:38:14 AM
Quote from: Baron;934544
Hmm, hair falling out...

Yes, and:
 "Man, your skin is really red and hot. Kind of feels like a sunburn."
As I told a party member once when they were poking around Ssuganar and found, and started playing around with, some strange devices manufactured by the Ssu.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 11, 2016, 07:56:42 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;934561
Yes, and:
 "Man, your skin is really red and hot. Kind of feels like a sunburn."
As I told a party member once when they were poking around Ssuganar and found, and started playing around with, some strange devices manufactured by the Ssu.

Shemek

Ah! The symptoms of the 'city sickness', as Phil used to call it. Which is why we were very cautious around ancient technology. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 11, 2016, 10:32:53 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;934521
From AsenRG:
No, if games stop being fun, you stop playing them, because they suck:).
And you move to better games;).

Agreed. Gaming hasn't been fun for a long while, so I stopped. Haven't found anything better yet, so I just keep on building my models. Which is what I like, anyway.

Maybe - but with RPGs, you always have an option to run a better game yourself. Which, last I heard, you had decided to do, right:)?

Quote
Yeah, that's why I said "classical". I've known such women, myself, and there's a couple NPCs I modeled after them over the years...:D

Yep. It's probably why I find such people tiresome and irrelevant.

That they are...

Quote
Yeah, but I find it increasingly funny that the things I care about align better with the Tsolyani POV than the "modern American"...at least in this case.

True; so do I. As Phil once said, "Chirine. you've gone native."

Well, I don't think I'm that different from people around me. Then again, maybe I am. I don't really know, nor care;).

Quote
Oh, they know the style better than me, I suspect. What they might not be expecting is me using it.

That will be a surprise! I wonder how they'll handle it?

I'll let you know once I run the next session.

Quote
Well, in a way, Tekumel is "inversed serious SF".
Serious SF deals with the question how scientific progress will impact us.
Tekumel is a matter of how scientific regress and lack of raw materials might impact us.


Interesting observation; I usually describe Tekumel as classic '40s and '50s F/SF, but I do think you're right here.

Well, my way of describing it has one, and only one, advantage over yours.
It sounds self-important enough to appeal to some segments of the gamers. And it's clear enough for the others:D!

Quote
I have some magical words for theses cases that he was probably too well-educated to use to their full effect: "Get lost!"

In most cases, once he'd had enough they got his standard form letter that said, in effect: "You do what you want in your Tekumel and I'll do what I want in mine" and usually they'd drift off into the aether. I do the same thing myself, these days, with people who insist that I need to change my views, opinions, or games to fit into what they insist is what they need to see in their lives.

Yeah - same thing, Uncle, with the same meaning. I'm just going for brevity;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 11, 2016, 05:31:35 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;934558
I remember those days as well. This is why I also tend err on the side of caution, and make those who report to me do the same.

Not every dungeon crawl. This for me would be in the realm of what Phil referred to as "Saturday Night Specials." Funny thing is my old gaming group used to be almost paranoid when doing dungeon crawls. It was actually kind of funny to watch. It got to the point where they literally would do, essentially, a safety huddle before going into a room. The good old days;)

Shemek

Dammit, if they aren't doing a quick tactical review before going into a room, your dungeon is too easy.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on December 11, 2016, 05:45:39 PM
If they have time to do a huddle you're not putting enough pressure on them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 11, 2016, 05:57:10 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;934583
Maybe - but with RPGs, you always have an option to run a better game yourself. Which, last I heard, you had decided to do, right:)?

I have indeed; my mantra is to let potential players set up their own game group, and schedule time with me. I run what I like, and I do let people know that up front - I suggest that they watch my videos, for example. To date, I've had one inquiry about a game over the past year, so I am following Gronan's advice of 'no gaming rather then bad gaming'. I find it's made for a much less stressful year, and I've had the time to do what interests me: my writing and my model-building.

Will I run games in the future? Maybe; that's up to potential players. I have neither the time or the energy to 'stomp the hustings' and do the marketing at local conventions and the various FLGS game rooms that is such a requirement of gaming here in the Twin Cities; people feel that they only gaming that they are willing to participate in happens at those locations, and this in turn is subject to the perfectly understandable need of the retail outlets to move product. I am not 'marketable', as I simply don't play anything currently on the shelves and have the additional handicap of a play style that is woefully obsolete.

Does this bother me? Not really. it's a whole lot less work for me, and a whole lot easier on me all around. Not to mention the vast reduction in repairs and lost items that went with public gaming.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 11, 2016, 06:53:11 PM
ReCon, the quarterly one-day con, used to have more space but the venue is no longer available, sadly.  For a few years it really was "come in, set up a game, somebody will drift over and play."  But I believe the building has been demolished and the new space, though nice, just isn't as big.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 11, 2016, 07:56:29 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;934615
ReCon, the quarterly one-day con, used to have more space but the venue is no longer available, sadly.  For a few years it really was "come in, set up a game, somebody will drift over and play."  But I believe the building has been demolished and the new space, though nice, just isn't as big.


They first were in rented hotel function space, then for a while in the VFW up in Anoka. They are now in the rented large meeting room of the Geek Partnership Society space, which is why ReCon charges $5 a head to game. The GPS people also sell snacks and sodas, and have a deal with a local fast-food place for deliveries; for all I know, they get a percentage on that as well. GPS pays for it's own office / meeting space by renting out this room, and as a result everyone and their dog Rover is asked to meet there. Originally, the space was being run by the same people who run the huge local SF convention, Convergence, but I've been told that this parent body spun off the 'clubhouse' as a separate organization - hence the heavy push for sales, donations, fees. etc.

The numbers are also kinda small; the Centurions historical guys are there, as it's theoretically their event, but that's maybe a dozen players, and you see maybe another ten people if it's a really successful event. They don't do any marketing or advertising, which probably isn't helping.

This is the rend in the Twin Cities; every small special-interest group is having their own tiny convention. It's the result of the Great Purge, back in the middle 1990s; after being kicked out of Minicon, people discovered that hotels loved to sigh contracts and rent out their space to anyone with the money to pay for it. There are, by last count, a good dozen tiny to large conventions here that cater to every imaginable gamer/fannish interest; they come and go very rapidly, lasting as long as the organizers' money holds out. The market here is so utterly fragmented, with everyone fighting for a tiny sliver of the pie, that nobody manages to make any money and often goes belly-up before the convention is even over; see also Kakkoi-Con, from a few years back, where the locals assumed that they had the backing of a corporate sponsor - who turned out to be a couple of anime fans from rural Minnesota who had no money with which to back anything, let alone a two-thousand person convention.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on December 11, 2016, 08:48:58 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;934607
Dammit, if they aren't doing a quick tactical review before going into a room, your dungeon is too easy.


Back then it was often hit and miss for me, as I was still figuring out the whole "being a DM" thing. Anyway, we all had fun and eventually I learnt how to create a challenging dungeon.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on December 11, 2016, 09:20:56 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;934608
If they have time to do a huddle you're not putting enough pressure on them.


Well yes and no. I think the party might disagree with your assertion. We have been doing a lot of town and wilderness adventuring the last several months, and much of that has been interacting with friendly and nuetral locals in a remote part of Tekumel, while the party tries to figure where they are, and how to get home. A different kind of pressure is being generated, subtle, with long term ramifications, and not always of immediate urgency.  My dungeons, such as they are these days, tend to be few and far in between. Basically, the party and I are more interested in exploring societal Tekumel now, and trying to figure out what's there.
We really haven't done a good old fashioned dungeon crawl in ages. Maybe it's time to throw one in and mix things up a bit. I can really make my dungeons quite wicked when I put my mind to it.:D

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on December 11, 2016, 11:56:39 PM
I've been running Mutant Chronicles just lately and with its weirdo narrativist mechanics you really have to keep the pressure on or it becomes a cake walk because the PCs can bank successes in a group pool and use them later on so you really, really have to keep them moving or they get up to shenanagins.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 12, 2016, 03:20:15 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;934609
I have indeed; my mantra is to let potential players set up their own game group, and schedule time with me. I run what I like, and I do let people know that up front - I suggest that they watch my videos, for example. To date, I've had one inquiry about a game over the past year, so I am following Gronan's advice of 'no gaming rather then bad gaming'. I find it's made for a much less stressful year, and I've had the time to do what interests me: my writing and my model-building.

Will I run games in the future? Maybe; that's up to potential players. I have neither the time or the energy to 'stomp the hustings' and do the marketing at local conventions and the various FLGS game rooms that is such a requirement of gaming here in the Twin Cities; people feel that they only gaming that they are willing to participate in happens at those locations, and this in turn is subject to the perfectly understandable need of the retail outlets to move product. I am not 'marketable', as I simply don't play anything currently on the shelves and have the additional handicap of a play style that is woefully obsolete.

Does this bother me? Not really. it's a whole lot less work for me, and a whole lot easier on me all around. Not to mention the vast reduction in repairs and lost items that went with public gaming.

That works, too, and if it makes for a less stressful life, it might be for the better!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on December 12, 2016, 05:53:28 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;934650
I've been running Mutant Chronicles just lately and with its weirdo narrativist mechanics you really have to keep the pressure on or it becomes a cake walk because the PCs can bank successes in a group pool and use them later on so you really, really have to keep them moving or they get up to shenanagins.


I don't know this particular rule set, but the one universal constant from a GM's perspective, regardless of the rules being employed, players, if given enough time, will always get up to shenanigans.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 12, 2016, 05:20:24 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;934663
That works, too, and if it makes for a less stressful life, it might be for the better!

It's a pretty straightforward equation for me:

More stress = higher blood pressure = brain bleed = death

Is this kind of gaming style worth dying for? My gut feeling is no; my feeling is let people have the kind of fun that they like. If they want to enjoy the kind of fun that I like, then they're certainly welcome to drop by. Let us know and I'll put the kettle on, as my British friends like to say.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 12, 2016, 07:12:57 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;934751
It's a pretty straightforward equation for me:

More stress = higher blood pressure = brain bleed = death

Is this kind of gaming style worth dying for? My gut feeling is no; my feeling is let people have the kind of fun that they like. If they want to enjoy the kind of fun that I like, then they're certainly welcome to drop by. Let us know and I'll put the kettle on, as my British friends like to say.

From this point of view, Uncle, your decision is certainly the best!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 12, 2016, 10:53:01 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;934751
It's a pretty straightforward equation for me:

More stress = higher blood pressure = brain bleed = death

Is this kind of gaming style worth dying for? My gut feeling is no; my feeling is let people have the kind of fun that they like. If they want to enjoy the kind of fun that I like, then they're certainly welcome to drop by. Let us know and I'll put the kettle on, as my British friends like to say.

Agreed.  I mean, the model railroad hobby would be pretty damn dull if everybody liked exactly the same things I liked, right? Why should any other hobby be different?  As C.S. Lewis once said, "“Once you have realised that the Frenchmen like café complet just as we like bacon and eggs—why, good luck to them and let them have it. The last thing we want is to make everywhere else just like our own home. It would not be home unless it were different.”

When did we lose Vive le difference?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 13, 2016, 05:58:03 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;934790
Agreed.  I mean, the model railroad hobby would be pretty damn dull if everybody liked exactly the same things I liked, right? Why should any other hobby be different?  As C.S. Lewis once said, "“Once you have realised that the Frenchmen like café complet just as we like bacon and eggs—why, good luck to them and let them have it. The last thing we want is to make everywhere else just like our own home. It would not be home unless it were different.”

When did we lose Vive le difference?

Do you want to engage in cultural appropriation, or would you rather be a bigot that reminds people that they're different by excluding them and telling them they must be different:D?


OK, that was mostly a joke;). Can we not turn this thread, too, into a debate about politics, please?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 13, 2016, 06:55:56 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;934816
Can we not turn this thread, too, into a debate about politics, please?


What? Isn't most of what goes on in the Empire about politics.
Who will be the next emperor? Which clan has a heir and will they announce it?

Chirine, how often did you get involved in political maneuvering?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 13, 2016, 06:19:20 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;934821
What? Isn't most of what goes on in the Empire about politics.
Who will be the next emperor? Which clan has a heir and will they announce it?

Chirine, how often did you get involved in political maneuvering?
=

All the time. Pretty much everything that we were involved in, in and around the Five Empires, had a very political dimension with both 'external' and 'internal' politics coming into play. This goes back to Phil not really handing out XP, but rather posts, positions, titles, ranks, and decorations instead. All of that was based in more then a small part on 'who you know' and what favors they owed you and what favors you owed them. I got involved very, very early with Prince Mirusiya as one of my 'patrons', and it made for a lot of good stuff coming my way over the years.

Mostly, my alter ego was a careerist who wanted to rise through the ranks of the Imperial structure. I happened to be in the right place at the right time and did the right thing, like saving the newly-revealed Prince from certain death at the hand of an assassin (Grey Hand, to be precise), and it paid off in the long run.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 13, 2016, 06:21:29 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;934763
From this point of view, Uncle, your decision is certainly the best!


Yep; it's a constant concern, which is why I do so little out in the big wide world. Any severe headaches get old - and terrifying! -  especially as they may be the signal that I'm having a brain bleed.:(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 13, 2016, 07:17:18 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;934929
This goes back to Phil not really handing out XP, but rather posts, positions, titles, ranks, and decorations instead.

Is there a good source you know of for what these posts, positions, titles, ranks, and decorations could be?
(For us less "worldly" hicks.)
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 14, 2016, 04:25:09 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;934930
Yep; it's a constant concern, which is why I do so little out in the big wide world. Any severe headaches get old - and terrifying! -  especially as they may be the signal that I'm having a brain bleed.:(
I'm starting to fully support your seclusion, Uncle:)! Nothing more that I can tell.

I'm sure you've been recommended meditation already by well-wishers, so I won't recommend it:p!

Quote from: Greentongue;934938
Is there a good source you know of for what these posts, positions, titles, ranks, and decorations could be?
(For us less "worldly" hicks.)
=
Seconded, it would be good to have a list...

I use "Singh of (location)" for martial prowess without being formal part of the army, "Thakur or Thakore of (location)" (male and female variant) for being granted the rights to extract the taxes of the place, Rawat for appointed vice-governors, Vali for tand so on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_titles_of_Indian_leaders
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Titles_in_Afghanistan
These can also serve as inspiration, and are close geographically;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on December 14, 2016, 05:37:38 PM
Chirine,

I was wondering, what colour would you recommend for painting Yan Koryani armour?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 14, 2016, 05:56:56 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;934938
Is there a good source you know of for what these posts, positions, titles, ranks, and decorations could be?
(For us less "worldly" hicks.)
=

Forgive my ignorance, but I would have thought that this kind of thing would already be on-line as part of the introductory materials that I would have expected to see available for new GMs and players. If not, I'd suggest S&G I fort his kind of thing as a best source; "Mitlanyal" has temple information, I think, and there are all of the articles that Phil did that are up - I think - on DriveThruRPG, and are a lot of the source materials that "Mitlanyal" uses. Phil's "Tsolyani Language" also has the specific words for various ranks and titles, too. There may be more in his "Engsvanyali" book, but I'd have to check.

I'd also fall back on the cultures that Phil had studied: Ancient Egypt, Meso-America, Mughal India, and medieval Europe. There's heaps of good stuff in there!

As an example, let's look at my laundry list of goodies.

Lord Chirine ba Kal,
of the Clan of the Eye of Flame and of the Clan of the Iron Helm,
Kasi of the Legion of the Searing Flame and Kasi of the Legion of M'nashu of Thri'il
Governor of the City and Province of Hekellu, Warden of the Chagari Protectorate,
Tenth Circle Master of the Energies of the Temple of Vimuhla,
Holder of the Gold of Imperial Victory and the Gold of Glory,
Beloved of the Petal Throne

'Lord' is from a patent of nobility from the Imperium, granted after Prince Mirusiya got three million in steel; the dual clan titles are my 'birth clan' and 'adopted clan'; my Imperial military ranks, as my mercenary rank is not socially acceptable in Tsolyanu; my civil posts from when I had to take over from Lord Takodai; my temple rank; my decorations for not screwing up two battles; and an honorific that looks nice, has a very small stipend, and means that I was an errand boy for the Imperium and lived to tell about it - the 'unclassified' parts, that is.

Speaking of stipends, the military and temple ranks do bring in some pay; the civil ones do not, since I don't hold them any more. The decorations had one-time payments. I don't think I ever see the stipends anymore, actually; I think they go right to the clans as my 'membership dues' in them. I do get a nice letter from both on my nameday, thanking me for being such a good solid member of the clan and wishing me and my family all the best for the coming year.

I also have some 'local rank' out in the Nyemesel Isles, relating to my being their hired mercenary general, but I don't get a stipend from that; I draw my legion pay from All-Consuming Flame, and live on that. I get room and board, plus uniforms, from the Legion, so I don't need all that much in cash these days. In the best Tekumelyani fashion, most of the family is also on the legion's payroll, so I don't have to worry about them.

Does any of this help? It's such a huge subject; I'm not sure how to address it in detail.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 14, 2016, 06:01:57 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;934988
I'm starting to fully support your seclusion, Uncle:)! Nothing more that I can tell.

I'm sure you've been recommended meditation already by well-wishers, so I won't recommend it:p!

Seconded, it would be good to have a list...

I use "Singh of (location)" for martial prowess without being formal part of the army, "Thakur or Thakore of (location)" (male and female variant) for being granted the rights to extract the taxes of the place, Rawat for appointed vice-governors, Vali for tand so on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_titles_of_Indian_leaders
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Titles_in_Afghanistan
These can also serve as inspiration, and are close geographically;).

Thank you for your understanding! I like it quiet, with having good friends in to talk about things when they want to drop by.

See the previous reply. It's such a huge topic; I've barely touched on it.

Yes, what you said; this is what Phil did. He just translated from Pashtun to Tsolyani - in his head, on the fly. He really was that good.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 14, 2016, 06:08:58 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;935098
Chirine,

I was wondering, what colour would you recommend for painting Yan Koryani armour?

Shemek.

Ah! Well, back in Ye Olden Dayes I used Pactra Flat Green as the basecoat, and Pactra Jade Green as the overcoat as the glossy translucent paint looked really cool. And it would sink into the etched details on the plates, and really pop them out. I used the red version on my Mu'uglavyani.

These days, I still use this, but also Liquitex Phthalocyanine Green, as it's a nice muted gloss and looks really good. The painting convention used by Phil and I was that glossy paints were metal or leather objects, and dull / matt paints were cloth. Wooden objects could be either. Other colors as needed from the painting guides.

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 14, 2016, 07:16:01 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;935099
Does any of this help? It's such a huge subject; I'm not sure how to address it in detail.

Well, nothing that you could add would go to waste in my opinion.
There is only around 5,000 posts so far so, there should be room for a few more on this subject. ;)
It seems like something that is useful in any game, especially one where position, appearances and rank matter a lot.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on December 14, 2016, 08:54:06 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;934938
Is there a good source you know of for what these posts, positions, titles, ranks, and decorations could be?
(For us less "worldly" hicks.)
=

Like Chirine said, when it comes to decorations there's the Gold, which he himself holds. As for ranks, the military, priestly and bureaucratic ranks/ titles are all in the Sourcebook.

The ancient feudal-like titles are few. I don't think any of the terms come from south Asia, although I could be wrong. The generic Tsolyani term for Lord is pachukoi. My suspicion is that this was inspired not by anything from India but by the Quechua name "Pachakuti" which is a "nickname,"not a title exactly, but does imply lordship (in fact, almost trans-planar lordship, which is interesting now I think about it). There is very little in Tekumel that was inspired by Andean civilizations, but this might be a rare example. There is also a slim chance that pachukoi derives from the Mayan word Pacal. It doesn't mean Lord, but it was the "name" of one of the few classic Mayan kings whose name was actually identified back when the Professor was coming up with all this Tekumel stuff. Seems like a stretch, but maybe.

Other Tsolyanu noble titles include Arsekmekoi, Mringukoi (I believe) and Hehellukoi. Don't know the origins, could be south Asian, but I would be surprised.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on December 14, 2016, 09:06:24 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;935101
Ah! Well, back in Ye Olden Dayes I used Pactra Flat Green as the basecoat, and Pactra Jade Green as the overcoat as the glossy translucent paint looked really cool. And it would sink into the etched details on the plates, and really pop them out. I used the red version on my Mu'uglavyani.

These days, I still use this, but also Liquitex Phthalocyanine Green, as it's a nice muted gloss and looks really good. The painting convention used by Phil and I was that glossy paints were metal or leather objects, and dull / matt paints were cloth. Wooden objects could be either. Other colors as needed from the painting guides.

Does this help?

Awesome. Thank you very much! After a long break, I started painting minis again. I have a really nice old box set of 10 Ral Partha female characters, based on Larry Elmore drawings, that I got for Christmas years ago, and I've decide to paint some as an Aridani from one of the Five Empires. Just finished my Tsolyani and I want to do a Yan Koryani next. Need to make a trip to my local art supply store this week and grab the green and a suitable red. What red do you use now? I think black is black is black when it comes to the Salarvyani so I should be ok there.
So in keeping with this motiff, the article from Dragon 6 says that the Livyani paint their armour bright colours. Are there any colours that are especially associated with Livyanu?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 15, 2016, 06:02:09 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;935107
Well, nothing that you could add would go to waste in my opinion.
There is only around 5,000 posts so far so, there should be room for a few more on this subject. ;)
It seems like something that is useful in any game, especially one where position, appearances and rank matter a lot.
=


Okay; let me take a run at this for you. This is the way Phil used the system in his games 1976 - 1988; I'll make some notes along the way. There are three basic 'career tracks' in Tsolyanu, and the other states tend to follow this same pattern - which, in turn derives from Engsvanyali practice.

Military:
'herekasa' - section of 20 soldiers; 'kasi' - cohort of 400; 'molkar' - field commander of each 'wing' of the legion; 'dritlan' - senior officer of each 'wing'; 'kerdu' - legion commander.  Heavies rank mediums who rank lights, who rank missile troops who rank artillery and sappers; mercenaries are the the bottom of the stack, as they are not considered to be all that important socially.

Interestingly, this was the only rank track where Phil routinely used the Tsolyani or other 'native' languages in game play. I think that may be because we were doing a lot of military adventures, what with the Glorious General and all; normally, 'kerdu' was not used unless in a formal setting, and 'general' was used in game play.

Civil:
Governors of the little two-hex fiefs; town and small city governors, administrators of protectorates and marches, major city governors, provincial governors, Imperial officials, Imperial chancellors, the High Chancellor at Avanthar, the Seal Emperor/Empress. All of the governorships came with the title 'lord' in game play; I don't recall Phil ever really using the 'correct' word for them, unless very specifically asked what the title was.

Military officers rank civil ones, but you tread very warily when a low-level military officer is dealing with a high-level civil officer. There's a lot of "my Lord, may I suggest?" and politeness that goes on. The reverse is true, one had better be pretty high up to give a general an order, and sure that one will be backed by Avanthar for doing so. I got in trouble once for being a civil governor and telling a molkar what to do, and his dritaln quite correctly told me of for doing so. And then gave the orders to have what I wanted to happen, and we won the Battle of Anch'ke; I just hadn't gone though the right steps.

Temples: (Once again, by definition, all magic-users are priests of one temple or another.)
'magic-users' - lower circle priests; administrative priests; ritual priests; scholar-priests; High Priests, who may be of any of the three types and are responsible for the 'departments'; High Priests - who run the temple, with the bigger the temple the higher the rank they hold.

Again, Phil did not use the specific titles in game play; it was normally 'priest/priestess', 'senior priest/priestess', 'high priest/priestess'. Phil just did not use a lot of Tsolyani or others of his languages in game play; he was too busy running us ragged.

Now - having said that - Phil could, at the drop of a hat, give all sorts of wonderful titles like "Perfumer of the Nostrils of the God" to denote the office that somebody held, or the title "Disposer of Meku" for the governors of that city. He was so well versed in the titles and ranks of the cultures that he'd studied, that he could lift the titles from memory as we played. And, of course, we had no idea what any of this stuff was, as we were nowhere nearly as well read as he was. I can do this now, but I've had forty years of study and practice at it. (These days, it's Wiki, I think.)

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 15, 2016, 08:55:04 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;935289
Does this help?

A Lot!
Thanks
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 17, 2016, 09:32:48 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;935113
Awesome. Thank you very much! After a long break, I started painting minis again. I have a really nice old box set of 10 Ral Partha female characters, based on Larry Elmore drawings, that I got for Christmas years ago, and I've decide to paint some as an Aridani from one of the Five Empires. Just finished my Tsolyani and I want to do a Yan Koryani next. Need to make a trip to my local art supply store this week and grab the green and a suitable red. What red do you use now? I think black is black is black when it comes to the Salarvyani so I should be ok there.
So in keeping with this motiff, the article from Dragon 6 says that the Livyani paint their armour bright colours. Are there any colours that are especially associated with Livyanu?

Shemek

I'm sorry; I missed this question, last time around.

Reds. I preferred the old Polly S 'Boxcar red' for my Mu'uglavyani troopers, as it was a nice-looking color and I was able to airbrush my original little army with it. Eventually, the boys in the other group came out with their painting guide in the troop list, and they picked usually brighter and more orange colors then I had - one of my paints schemes was used 'as is', for IX of the First, "Long Arrow". So, I tend to use Liquitex reds. grouped around their Cadmium Red Medium Hue. Other colors as needed, of course.

One of the odder little details about the writing of the army lists is that very, very few of the paint schemes were ever 'tested' on figures; while a number of them duplicate the ones that Phil gives in the original guide, most are kind of 'off the cuff', as it were. I wound up doing a lot of 'sample' cohorts of four figures for Phil to look at; he wanted to see what the 'official' paint schemes looked like before he had me paint any of them on his figures. (Or mine, for that matter.) Very few of his own figures match the 'official' schemes, as he did them long before the troop lists came out; the Dragon guide was written with the actual figures in front of him, as they even predated that article.

Blacks are not entirely blacks; I use various shades on my Salarvyani to break up the monotony, with the darker and glossier shades on armor and leather and lighter and more matte on cloth. It's all to taste, of course!

The Livyani tend to have yellow as their 'base color'; it does make them stand out from the other empires, which was the idea in the first place. It is not a 'uniform color'; it just happens to be present in a lot of units. Everything else under the sun is included; they look pretty colorful on the table top. I think this is because the country is a sort of federal system of temples, each of which clothes their troops according to their own dictates.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 17, 2016, 09:33:48 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;935319
A Lot!
Thanks
=

You're welcome! Happy to be of help! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 17, 2016, 11:22:02 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;935607
I'm sorry; I missed this question, last time around.

Reds. I preferred the old Polly S 'Boxcar red' for my Mu'uglavyani troopers, as it was a nice-looking color and I was able to airbrush my original little army with it. Eventually, the boys in the other group came out with their painting guide in the troop list, and they picked usually brighter and more orange colors then I had - one of my paints schemes was used 'as is', for IX of the First, "Long Arrow". So, I tend to use Liquitex reds. grouped around their Cadmium Red Medium Hue. Other colors as needed, of course.

One of the odder little details about the writing of the army lists is that very, very few of the paint schemes were ever 'tested' on figures; while a number of them duplicate the ones that Phil gives in the original guide, most are kind of 'off the cuff', as it were. I wound up doing a lot of 'sample' cohorts of four figures for Phil to look at; he wanted to see what the 'official' paint schemes looked like before he had me paint any of them on his figures. (Or mine, for that matter.) Very few of his own figures match the 'official' schemes, as he did them long before the troop lists came out; the Dragon guide was written with the actual figures in front of him, as they even predated that article.

Blacks are not entirely blacks; I use various shades on my Salarvyani to break up the monotony, with the darker and glossier shades on armor and leather and lighter and more matte on cloth. It's all to taste, of course!

The Livyani tend to have yellow as their 'base color'; it does make them stand out from the other empires, which was the idea in the first place. It is not a 'uniform color'; it just happens to be present in a lot of units. Everything else under the sun is included; they look pretty colorful on the table top. I think this is because the country is a sort of federal system of temples, each of which clothes their troops according to their own dictates.


Hello Gents,

If it is not too much trouble, could you show us some of your work? For example, a figure or two of each of the Five Empires...I would love to see your work!!!

Thanks,

H:0)

PS Maybe your personal favorite...If it's not too much trouble that is.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on December 17, 2016, 01:06:11 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;935607
I'm sorry; I missed this question, last time around.

Reds. I preferred the old Polly S 'Boxcar red' for my Mu'uglavyani troopers, as it was a nice-looking color and I was able to airbrush my original little army with it. Eventually, the boys in the other group came out with their painting guide in the troop list, and they picked usually brighter and more orange colors then I had - one of my paints schemes was used 'as is', for IX of the First, "Long Arrow". So, I tend to use Liquitex reds. grouped around their Cadmium Red Medium Hue. Other colors as needed, of course.

One of the odder little details about the writing of the army lists is that very, very few of the paint schemes were ever 'tested' on figures; while a number of them duplicate the ones that Phil gives in the original guide, most are kind of 'off the cuff', as it were. I wound up doing a lot of 'sample' cohorts of four figures for Phil to look at; he wanted to see what the 'official' paint schemes looked like before he had me paint any of them on his figures. (Or mine, for that matter.) Very few of his own figures match the 'official' schemes, as he did them long before the troop lists came out; the Dragon guide was written with the actual figures in front of him, as they even predated that article.

Blacks are not entirely blacks; I use various shades on my Salarvyani to break up the monotony, with the darker and glossier shades on armor and leather and lighter and more matte on cloth. It's all to taste, of course!

The Livyani tend to have yellow as their 'base color'; it does make them stand out from the other empires, which was the idea in the first place. It is not a 'uniform color'; it just happens to be present in a lot of units. Everything else under the sun is included; they look pretty colorful on the table top. I think this is because the country is a sort of federal system of temples, each of which clothes their troops according to their own dictates.



No Worries, and thank you very much for the information! This is perfect, and kind of what I had in mind.
I get what you mean about blacks. I typically use anything from a base Flat Black to a Black Grey (Anthracite) when doing military models. I guess I'll apply the same approach to the minis.
One thing I forgot to ask in my last post. What is the typical colour scheme for troops from Tsamra, Yellow and what other colour? Unfortunately I don't have the Livyani Army List book.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on December 17, 2016, 01:10:03 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;935621
Hello Gents,

If it is not too much trouble, could you show us some of your work? For example, a figure or two of each of the Five Empires...I would love to see your work!!!

Thanks,

H:0)

PS Maybe your personal favorite...If it's not too much trouble that is.

I second this request!
It would be nice see some sample cohorts from the Five Empires. Even the smaller nations would be nice as well. Perhaps you could put it on your blog if you don't want to post it here?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 17, 2016, 02:26:48 PM
Sure; let me see what I can do. Posting here isn't an issue, I think; my dodgy Internet connection is. I'll see what I can do; we're going to be pretty housebound for the next 24 hours, due to the weather.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 17, 2016, 02:31:07 PM
In the meantime, have a look at this album on my Photobucket page:

http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/chirinebakal/library/Castle%20Tiketl?sort=3&page=1 (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/chirinebakal/library/Castle%20Tiketl?sort=3&page=1)

as you can see Tleku Miriya I and II as well as Serqu, Sword of the Empire in action.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 20, 2016, 07:04:57 AM
Do ancient tech devices of the ancients do what they were designed to do or has the transition to a bubble universe altered some physical laws?
Does the deterioration over time alter their function or would they more likely just not work.
Obviously they might have broken down over the years and now not work correctly due to that but what of the ones that are in good condition.

On that note, how durable are ancient devices in your experience.
Did most work if they had been left in basic storage?

(I know in My EPT I can do what I want, just looking for a Touchstone.)
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 20, 2016, 07:57:51 AM
Something I'm not sure if I've asked...
(I've decided it already for my game, and that's not going to change. I just want to know how Professor Barker was envisioning it).

Barsoom has lower gravity than Earth, and a higher proportion of people with thin and elongated bodies. Tekumel has similar artwork. Am I right it's got at least somewhat less than Earth's gravity, maybe something like 90-95% gravity?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on December 20, 2016, 10:38:54 AM
Tekumel started out as an expensive pleasure world so no unsightly fat people to make the rich folks uneasy, the aliens stand in for those so that's why everyone is tall and good looking.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 20, 2016, 01:13:59 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;936036
Do ancient tech devices of the ancients do what they were designed to do or has the transition to a bubble universe altered some physical laws?
Does the deterioration over time alter their function or would they more likely just not work.
Obviously they might have broken down over the years and now not work correctly due to that but what of the ones that are in good condition.

On that note, how durable are ancient devices in your experience.
Did most work if they had been left in basic storage?

(I know in My EPT I can do what I want, just looking for a Touchstone.)
=

All of the above.  We encountered every possible variation over the years.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 20, 2016, 05:46:30 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;936036
Do ancient tech devices of the ancients do what they were designed to do or has the transition to a bubble universe altered some physical laws?
Does the deterioration over time alter their function or would they more likely just not work.
Obviously they might have broken down over the years and now not work correctly due to that but what of the ones that are in good condition.

On that note, how durable are ancient devices in your experience.
Did most work if they had been left in basic storage?

(I know in My EPT I can do what I want, just looking for a Touchstone.)
=

From what we saw, they worked the way that they were supposed to, but what that might be was not always that obvious. We didn't see any changes in the physical laws, but then we didn't realize until we had been gaming for several years what those laws might be. The Ancients had pretty much total control over matter and energy, and nasty senses of humor as well.

Devices might deteriorate, but usually would then simply not work or explode in your hand. Stuff seemed to be very well engineered. So, yes, is left in ordinary storage, they usually worked just fine until their charges ran out. Anything left in a stasis field was as good as new.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 20, 2016, 05:49:38 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;936041
Something I'm not sure if I've asked...
(I've decided it already for my game, and that's not going to change. I just want to know how Professor Barker was envisioning it).

Barsoom has lower gravity than Earth, and a higher proportion of people with thin and elongated bodies. Tekumel has similar artwork. Am I right it's got at least somewhat less than Earth's gravity, maybe something like 90-95% gravity?

As far we we know, since Tekumel has the gravity engines in the core, the mean gravity is the same as ancient Earth's - I think this is mentioned in EPT. It might be lower, along the lines you mention, but we locals wouldn't know the difference.

The thin and elongated artwork is a symptom of when the artwork was done - this was back in the days when Barsoom was all the rage, due to the Ace reprints of the books.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 20, 2016, 05:50:34 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;936065
Tekumel started out as an expensive pleasure world so no unsightly fat people to make the rich folks uneasy, the aliens stand in for those so that's why everyone is tall and good looking.

Things have really gone downhill, then; we ran into a lot of of unsightly fat people, over the years. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 20, 2016, 05:51:32 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936103
All of the above.  We encountered every possible variation over the years.

Yep. Phil was nothing if not full of variety. Which did keep us on our guard, all the time...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 21, 2016, 06:32:19 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;936158
As far we we know, since Tekumel has the gravity engines in the core, the mean gravity is the same as ancient Earth's - I think this is mentioned in EPT. It might be lower, along the lines you mention, but we locals wouldn't know the difference.

The thin and elongated artwork is a symptom of when the artwork was done - this was back in the days when Barsoom was all the rage, due to the Ace reprints of the books.

Well, my logic was "on a resort planet, you want the visitors to feel a bit stronger - not by so much as to be disturbing, but enough that they'd remember feeling stronger and full of energy". So it made sense to give you a boost via the gravity, which would also apply across the world, and cost the onwers nothing other than some bit of forethought;).

But while that's the canon for My Tekumel, Uncle, thank you for clarifying the canon of MARB's Tekumel, now I can stop wondering and admit that it was my change:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 21, 2016, 08:31:03 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;936222
Well, my logic was "on a resort planet, you want the visitors to feel a bit stronger - not by so much as to be disturbing, but enough that they'd remember feeling stronger and full of energy". So it made sense to give you a boost via the gravity, which would also apply across the world, and cost the onwers nothing other than some bit of forethought;).

But while that's the canon for My Tekumel, Uncle, thank you for clarifying the canon of MARB's Tekumel, now I can stop wondering and admit that it was my change:D!

It all makes sense to me; my point was that as the locals, we'd never know the difference. Now, visitors, on the other hand...

John Carter, anyone? :)

As a side note, we didn't notice anything different when we went to Blackmoor; sky was a different color, of course, but that was it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 22, 2016, 05:28:41 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;936381
It all makes sense to me; my point was that as the locals, we'd never know the difference. Now, visitors, on the other hand...
Indeed;).

Quote
John Carter, anyone? :)
He just might have been part of the inspiration for this:p. Though my numbers wouldn't allow anything so drastic...just enough to make a reasonably fit Earthling on par with a reasonably fit warrior on Tekumel, maybe, assuming the skill difference doesn't destroy you anyway.
Whereas if the gravity was normal, the reasonably fit Earthlings wouldn't be able to compete at all, being easily outclassed in both skill with native weapons and in physical conditioning:D.

Quote
As a side note, we didn't notice anything different when we went to Blackmoor; sky was a different color, of course, but that was it.
That's definitely an argument that "canonical" Tekumel has the same gravity:)!

But I explained above why I introduced the subtle change, despite being almost sure that it's a change. It works better for my more scientifically-minded players, so it's a better fit for my Tekumel:D.
Your Tekumel doesn't need to change because of that, of course. I still find the idea of someone demanding of Professor Barker to change his creation rather baffling;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on December 22, 2016, 04:35:09 PM
A question about Ssu - do you happen to know how they are affected by radiation/city-sickness, if at all?

I'm trying to write a follow up to the Bethorm start adventure which has the PCs head into a forest where they find a bunch of Chnehl, a deserted tubewway station, the Ssu that are trying to encourage them to attack the nearby Sakbe towers, and some Dzor, all as a sandbox adventure. I want to give the Ssu a pyramidial structure they use for storage made from sheets of the impervious metal, and it could be a bit radioactive, just to make the PCs a bit poorly...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: darthfozzywig on December 22, 2016, 06:02:48 PM
I have no idea wtf any of the above means. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron Opal on December 22, 2016, 06:57:57 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;936381
As a side note, we didn't notice anything different when we went to Blackmoor; sky was a different color, of course, but that was it.

What was the difference?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 22, 2016, 07:51:36 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;936424
Indeed;).

He just might have been part of the inspiration for this:p. Though my numbers wouldn't allow anything so drastic...just enough to make a reasonably fit Earthling on par with a reasonably fit warrior on Tekumel, maybe, assuming the skill difference doesn't destroy you anyway.
Whereas if the gravity was normal, the reasonably fit Earthlings wouldn't be able to compete at all, being easily outclassed in both skill with native weapons and in physical conditioning:D.

That's definitely an argument that "canonical" Tekumel has the same gravity:)!

But I explained above why I introduced the subtle change, despite being almost sure that it's a change. It works better for my more scientifically-minded players, so it's a better fit for my Tekumel:D.
Your Tekumel doesn't need to change because of that, of course. I still find the idea of someone demanding of Professor Barker to change his creation rather baffling;).

If it works for you, it works. Go with it.

Yep; people would insist that Phil change some part of his world to make their dreams of fame and prestige come true. It still happens; the number of people who insist that I change my book - an account of our adventures - so that they can be included and seem to be Very Important People In Gaming has gotten to be ridiculous. I keep saying that "you didn't game with us and were not there for any of these adventures" and keep getting the reply that "You need to change history to make me important!" It gets old.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 22, 2016, 07:54:17 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));936513
A question about Ssu - do you happen to know how they are affected by radiation/city-sickness, if at all?

I'm trying to write a follow up to the Bethorm start adventure which has the PCs head into a forest where they find a bunch of Chnehl, a deserted tubewway station, the Ssu that are trying to encourage them to attack the nearby Sakbe towers, and some Dzor, all as a sandbox adventure. I want to give the Ssu a pyramidial structure they use for storage made from sheets of the impervious metal, and it could be a bit radioactive, just to make the PCs a bit poorly...

From what we saw of them, they either had a much higher tolerance for hard radiation or they were really good at faking it. Situations where our teeth would start falling out didn't seem to faze them at all.

The ceramic-metal of the Ancients does not seem to hold or pass radiation - artifacts inside the building, however... :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 22, 2016, 07:55:01 PM
Quote from: darthfozzywig;936541
I have no idea wtf any of the above means. :)

Understood; by the same token, I have no idea wtf 99% of the threads on this forum are about.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 22, 2016, 07:55:47 PM
Quote from: Baron Opal;936554
What was the difference?

Tekumel's sky is a golden-white; Blackmoor's is blue. Different stellar types.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 22, 2016, 08:49:44 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;936559
If it works for you, it works. Go with it.

Yep; people would insist that Phil change some part of his world to make their dreams of fame and prestige come true. It still happens; the number of people who insist that I change my book - an account of our adventures - so that they can be included and seem to be Very Important People In Gaming has gotten to be ridiculous. I keep saying that "you didn't game with us and were not there for any of these adventures" and keep getting the reply that "You need to change history to make me important!" It gets old.
Some people have gotten used relying on Illusionist GMs to feel important, I guess:).
Just give them the same answer Prof. Barker was giving to the similar requests about his setting. Which is no doubt what you're doing already;).

I mean, I knew that gaming's supposed to be inclusuve these days. (I also happen to believe that gaming is always exactly as inclusive as the people around the table make it).
But I think asking for such stuff is kinda abusing the definition of inclusiveness:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 22, 2016, 09:04:50 PM
I'm perfectly willing to have Korunme's pratfalls told of, as long as my name is spelled right...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: darthfozzywig on December 22, 2016, 10:00:18 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;936561
Understood; by the same token, I have no idea wtf 99% of the threads on this forum are about.

And I mean no disrespect! My knowledge of Tekumel is limited to seeing some really cool EPT minis a few years ago and one poster on The Miniatures Page who chimes in on threads to tell everyone that Tekumel is the best fantasy ever. I am sure I'm missing out. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 23, 2016, 06:59:20 AM
Quote from: darthfozzywig;936579
And I mean no disrespect! My knowledge of Tekumel is limited to seeing some really cool EPT minis a few years ago and one poster on The Miniatures Page who chimes in on threads to tell everyone that Tekumel is the best fantasy ever. I am sure I'm missing out. :)

You may actually not be "missing out". It is not for everyone.
It seems that most people like to play in setting they are most comfortable with.
This is usually some generic European setting with Elves and Dwarves.
Nothing wrong with that.
For the people that want to explore closer to the edge of gaming, a setting like Tekumel is just the thing.
Just enough different to feel fresh while still being human centric.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 23, 2016, 07:12:50 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;936568
Some people have gotten used relying on Illusionist GMs to feel important, I guess:).
Just give them the same answer Prof. Barker was giving to the similar requests about his setting. Which is no doubt what you're doing already;).

I mean, I knew that gaming's supposed to be inclusuve these days. (I also happen to believe that gaming is always exactly as inclusive as the people around the table make it).
But I think asking for such stuff is kinda abusing the definition of inclusiveness:D!


The impression that I've gotten is that as the game hobby gets smaller and smaller, and a certain group of people get less and less well-known, they really need to be more and more Important. Some of the stuff that's gone by me in the past five years defies rational belief.

Ah, 'inclusiveness'. Which used to be "anyone's welcome to play" and has now morphed into "only the special group that I want to impress" gets to game.

Stuff that. Anybody is still welcome, here in my house, and at my game table. If somebody has an issue with that, they can start their own politically correct game group.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 23, 2016, 07:15:52 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936570
I'm perfectly willing to have Korunme's pratfalls told of, as long as my name is spelled right...

The really funny thing, my General, is that over the years you very - and I do mean very - rarely had any pratfalls. You played brilliantly from the beginning; you role-played. It was amazing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 23, 2016, 07:20:51 AM
Quote from: darthfozzywig;936579
And I mean no disrespect! My knowledge of Tekumel is limited to seeing some really cool EPT minis a few years ago and one poster on The Miniatures Page who chimes in on threads to tell everyone that Tekumel is the best fantasy ever. I am sure I'm missing out. :)

None taken, sir! And none offered, myself! I know how you feel; when I look in on the threads on this (or any other gaming) forum, I'm completely lost. I have no idea what the posters are talking about, the games they're referencing, and the mechanics they're using.

I don't know if either of us is 'missing out'. I freely admit that my gaming is very focused - Tekumel, Barsoom, Ancient Egypt, Ye Pyrates - and my being here in this thread is to answer questions. If that's something that you like, please feel free; if not, you're still welcome at the table. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 23, 2016, 07:22:39 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;936624
You may actually not be "missing out". It is not for everyone.
It seems that most people like to play in setting they are most comfortable with.
This is usually some generic European setting with Elves and Dwarves.
Nothing wrong with that.
For the people that want to explore closer to the edge of gaming, a setting like Tekumel is just the thing.
Just enough different to feel fresh while still being human centric.
=

Very well put!!! In a lot of ways, Ancient Egypt is much more alien then Tekumel, and there are days when I despair over Barsoom. Pirates, on the other hand, seem to go over well anywhere... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 23, 2016, 12:38:18 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;936627
The really funny thing, my General, is that over the years you very - and I do mean very - rarely had any pratfalls. You played brilliantly from the beginning; you role-played. It was amazing.

Well, thanks.  I will confess my misadventures tended to be more situational... stairwell full of Pe Choi shit, anyone... and less being hoist by my own petard (how ARE you lads planning on getting that sheet of red gold out of here?)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 23, 2016, 01:28:23 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;936626
The impression that I've gotten is that as the game hobby gets smaller and smaller, and a certain group of people get less and less well-known, they really need to be more and more Important. Some of the stuff that's gone by me in the past five years defies rational belief.

Ah, 'inclusiveness'. Which used to be "anyone's welcome to play" and has now morphed into "only the special group that I want to impress" gets to game.

Stuff that. Anybody is still welcome, here in my house, and at my game table. If somebody has an issue with that, they can start their own politically correct game group.

I abide by the same definition of inclusiveness, and intend to do so:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;936627
The really funny thing, my General, is that over the years you very - and I do mean very - rarely had any pratfalls. You played brilliantly from the beginning; you role-played. It was amazing.

For some reason, I fail to be surprised...just a hunch, that.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;936630
Very well put!!! In a lot of ways, Ancient Egypt is much more alien then Tekumel, and there are days when I despair over Barsoom. Pirates, on the other hand, seem to go over well anywhere... :)

I agree on Ancient Egypt. Sometimes, I've wanted to put a fantasy land inspired by it in a homebrew setting, and see who would get the reference...

But...Barsoom isn't "alien", Uncle! Like, at all. It's just not well-known, especially lately - but the concepts are familiar.
It's just that they've been scattered across genres...
Tell any modern player unfamiliar with Barsoom that it's "pulp swaschbuckling with air ships in a dying post-apocalyptic world that's hanging on the brink of a second apocalypse and where everyone is hoping it wouldn't happen for another thousand years at least, although nobody knows when it's actually going to happen, and how long the resources and the machines that help maintain life on the whole planet are going to last".
Watch them starting to ask the right questions;).
Or, even more simply, give them this link to a free PDF (works even better with the modern gamers that are used to reading manuals on settings and systems!)
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/119991/Under-the-Moons-of-Zoon
Tell them to read just the setting chapter (assuming you're not planning to use the system...all the 20 pages of it, I mean).
See how much would be left to explain.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on December 23, 2016, 03:53:05 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;936560
From what we saw of them, they either had a much higher tolerance for hard radiation or they were really good at faking it. Situations where our teeth would start falling out didn't seem to faze them at all.

The ceramic-metal of the Ancients does not seem to hold or pass radiation - artifacts inside the building, however... :eek:


Ok. I had the feeling they might have greater resistance; the info about the ceramic and the artifacts though - great!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on December 23, 2016, 03:54:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;936562
Tekumel's sky is a golden-white; Blackmoor's is blue. Different stellar types.


Hm, never thought about that. Interesting to think about the scattering of the light as it came into the atmosphere and what that might tell you. OTOH it's a nice detail.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 23, 2016, 08:52:30 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936681
Well, thanks.  I will confess my misadventures tended to be more situational... stairwell full of Pe Choi shit, anyone... and less being hoist by my own petard (how ARE you lads planning on getting that sheet of red gold out of here?)


Or cisterns full of Pe Choi poop, or trenches full of Pe Choi poop, or...

You think we detected a trend, there, my General? :rolleyes:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 23, 2016, 08:57:58 PM
From AsenRG:
I abide by the same definition of inclusiveness, and intend to do so:).

Well, I guess I'm stupid or something, but what else is there? Back in our presumably less enlightened times, anybody was welcome unless they were a total dickhead as a person - and we did have a few of them - but that was it.

For some reason, I fail to be surprised...just a hunch, that.

Grona is a very canny player, and not prone to doing dumb things.

I agree on Ancient Egypt. Sometimes, I've wanted to put a fantasy land inspired by it in a homebrew setting, and see who would get the reference...

Nobody, probably. I remember the background of "Creatures of Light And Darkness" having to be explained to SF fans at a convention by the author...

But...Barsoom isn't "alien", Uncle! Like, at all. It's just not well-known, especially lately - but the concepts are familiar.
It's just that they've been scattered across genres...
Tell any modern player unfamiliar with Barsoom that it's "pulp swaschbuckling with air ships in a dying post-apocalyptic world that's hanging on the brink of a second apocalypse and where everyone is hoping it wouldn't happen for another thousand years at least, although nobody knows when it's actually going to happen, and how long the resources and the machines that help maintain life on the whole planet are going to last".
Watch them starting to ask the right questions;).
Or, even more simply, give them this link to a free PDF (works even better with the modern gamers that are used to reading manuals on settings and systems!)
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/119991/Under-the-Moons-of-Zoon
Tell them to read just the setting chapter (assuming you're not planning to use the system...all the 20 pages of it, I mean).
See how much would be left to explain.


I may have to try this. Mostly, all I get is blank looks from people.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 23, 2016, 09:02:29 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));936714
Ok. I had the feeling they might have greater resistance; the info about the ceramic and the artifacts though - great!


Yep; all our evidence on the subject was observational, usually made while running like hell or killing them as fast as we could.

The ceremet stuff was used for 'ordinary' objects; the really tough stuff was used for spaceship hulls; ain't nothing we had could get through that.

Funniest time we had in my campaign was when a guy stuck a power rod into his backpack. The party made him dig his own grave, then went through a very complicated process to get him back alive without being contaminated. Lots of laughs for everybody - at a safe distance, of course.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 23, 2016, 09:04:06 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));936715
Hm, never thought about that. Interesting to think about the scattering of the light as it came into the atmosphere and what that might tell you. OTOH it's a nice detail.

It's one of those little details that never seems to have been written down in any of the relevant publications, but did come up in play with the two of them. I liked it, myself; made for a bit more 'flavor' in the game sessions...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 24, 2016, 08:29:28 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;936769
From AsenRG:
Well, I guess I'm stupid or something, but what else is there? Back in our presumably less enlightened times, anybody was welcome unless they were a total dickhead as a person - and we did have a few of them - but that was it.
It seems that mostly there's a total confusion of terms, but let's drop that topic at that:).

Quote
Grona is a very canny player, and not prone to doing dumb things.
That was what the hunch said, too.

Quote
I agree on Ancient Egypt. Sometimes, I've wanted to put a fantasy land inspired by it in a homebrew setting, and see who would get the reference...

Nobody, probably. I remember the background of "Creatures of Light And Darkness" having to be explained to SF fans at a convention by the author...
That kinda surprises me. It was quite obvious to me and my high school friends when the book was translated, to the point that we commented whether it was appropriate to show strength by fist punches, when it obviously comes to Egyptian gods - wrestling was more appropriate, I claimed;).

Quote
I may have to try this. Mostly, all I get is blank looks from people.
Well, at the very least it would be an interesting experiment.
But the elements of Barsoom are still used today, so do tell us how it went!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 24, 2016, 03:52:47 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;936816
That kinda surprises me. It was quite obvious to me and my high school friends when the book was translated, to the point that we commented whether it was appropriate to show strength by fist punches, when it obviously comes to Egyptian gods - wrestling was more appropriate, I claimed;).

Well, at the very least it would be an interesting experiment.
But the elements of Barsoom are still used today, so do tell us how it went!

In my forty years in the field, I've found that while F/SF fans and their off-spring, gamers, are astonishingly uninformed and downright ignorant of much of what might be considered 'wider knowledge'. Yes, quite a few of them are experts and masters of trivia in their chosen area of interest, but anything wider then that they simply have no clue about.

One example was the miniatures gamer who raked me over the coals about the range and rate of fire of the weapon of one of the legions (IX of the First Palace, 'Long Arrow') as he assumed that Phil and I were referring to the classic Anglo-Welsh 'longbow', and that we had our stats all wrong. I pointed out that Phil had clearly stated that this weapon was based on the Turkish composite longbow. and that the data we'd used was taken from actual firing trials done by Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey, and written up in his wonderful book "The Crossbow". The guy pitched a fit; he'd never heard of the book, and refused to believe that it existed; he was certain that we were making all of this up, as he'd never read the book himself.

I sometimes despair, I really do.

I'll see what happens, and let you know.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 24, 2016, 04:27:36 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;936881
I pointed out that Phil had clearly stated that this weapon was based on the Turkish composite longbow. and that the data we'd used was taken from actual firing trials done by Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey, and written up in his wonderful book "The Crossbow". The guy pitched a fit; he'd never heard of the book, and refused to believe that it existed; he was certain that we were making all of this up, as he'd never read the book himself.

I sometimes despair, I really do.

To be nostalgic for the days when it would have been the giggling hooks for such a littermate of drones.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 24, 2016, 06:13:40 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936889
To be nostalgic for the days when it would have been the giggling hooks for such a littermate of drones.

Yep. These days, if you can't find it in a game book, it doesn't exist, and by gum no amount of facts will change my mind, no sireebob!

Ah, me. Different times, different play styles.

Thought of you this afternoon, my General; went out to the pre-post-Christmas sales to get more brickwork and cobblestone sheets (at 70% off, no less!) and then ran "A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum" while I flattened out the rolled-up vinyl sheets. They don't make game sessions like that anymore, I suspect... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 24, 2016, 06:44:31 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;936881
In my forty years in the field, I've found that while F/SF fans and their off-spring, gamers, are astonishingly uninformed and downright ignorant of much of what might be considered 'wider knowledge'. Yes, quite a few of them are experts and masters of trivia in their chosen area of interest, but anything wider then that they simply have no clue about.

One example was the miniatures gamer who raked me over the coals about the range and rate of fire of the weapon of one of the legions (IX of the First Palace, 'Long Arrow') as he assumed that Phil and I were referring to the classic Anglo-Welsh 'longbow', and that we had our stats all wrong. I pointed out that Phil had clearly stated that this weapon was based on the Turkish composite longbow. and that the data we'd used was taken from actual firing trials done by Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey, and written up in his wonderful book "The Crossbow". The guy pitched a fit; he'd never heard of the book, and refused to believe that it existed; he was certain that we were making all of this up, as he'd never read the book himself.

I sometimes despair, I really do.

I'll see what happens, and let you know.
I understand the feeling. What happened to the ideal of "the Renaissance Man", educated in many subjects:)?
And why are people with hobbies predicated on specialised knowledge (like SF) so willing to remain ignorant of basic facts? It boggles the mind, to borrow one of your phrases.

Then again, there was one article from long ago that I always remember when I don't like how things work. It had the line "setting an example is the only way to change the world".
So I try to do that to the best of my ability, and let the others decide whether they want to follow. Luckily for me, people closest to me are the kind that always try to learn, so I meet understanding:p.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;936903
Yep. These days, if you can't find it in a game book, it doesn't exist, and by gum no amount of facts will change my mind, no sireebob!

Ah, me. Different times, different play styles.
That's always been a point of disconnect between me and the wider gaming community. To me, if the rulebook contradicts actual books on the subject, it's the rulebook that needs to be amended. I like GURPS because the system's books, while heavy, reflect almost insane amounts of research.
To some people, it seems only game manuals matter, as you say.
Luckily, I'm seeing less and less of that lately. Whether the newest generation is more open or it's me who's filtering such people more efficiently, I can't tell. I sure hope it's the former, but fear the latter;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 24, 2016, 08:24:56 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;936905
I understand the feeling. What happened to the ideal of "the Renaissance Man", educated in many subjects:)?
And why are people with hobbies predicated on specialised knowledge (like SF) so willing to remain ignorant of basic facts? It boggles the mind, to borrow one of your phrases.

Then again, there was one article from long ago that I always remember when I don't like how things work. It had the line "setting an example is the only way to change the world".
So I try to do that to the best of my ability, and let the others decide whether they want to follow. Luckily for me, people closest to me are the kind that always try to learn, so I meet understanding:p.


That's always been a point of disconnect between me and the wider gaming community. To me, if the rulebook contradicts actual books on the subject, it's the rulebook that needs to be amended. I like GURPS because the system's books, while heavy, reflect almost insane amounts of research.
To some people, it seems only game manuals matter, as you say.
Luckily, I'm seeing less and less of that lately. Whether the newest generation is more open or it's me who's filtering such people more efficiently, I can't tell. I sure hope it's the former, but fear the latter;).

Yes; agreed. I know I'm filtering people by no longer organizing game groups or convention shows; letting other people to that, so that they can have their version of reality imposed on things, has saved me a lot of stress and work over the past year. As Gronan says, no gaming is better then bad gaming, and I agree with that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 24, 2016, 10:31:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;936903
Yep. These days, if you can't find it in a game book, it doesn't exist, and by gum no amount of facts will change my mind, no sireebob!

Ah, me. Different times, different play styles.

Thought of you this afternoon, my General; went out to the pre-post-Christmas sales to get more brickwork and cobblestone sheets (at 70% off, no less!) and then ran "A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum" while I flattened out the rolled-up vinyl sheets. They don't make game sessions like that anymore, I suspect... :)

* envy *

"Woo meeks the souse of Meekus Laycus?"

"HOLD, SIR!"

"Moo weeks the moose of..."

"YOU'RE NOT HOLDING, SIR!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 24, 2016, 10:34:14 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;936905
To me, if the rulebook contradicts actual books on the subject, it's the rulebook that needs to be amended. I like GURPS because the system's books, while heavy, reflect almost insane amounts of research.

Oh CROM'S hairy nutsack, yes!  As somebody who actually likes studying historical medieval armor, the crap that appears on the web now, the regurgitated third and fourth hand shit cribbed out of second rate computer game manuals and passed off as actual information, makes me want to puke so hard blood squirts out my ass!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on December 25, 2016, 12:05:33 AM
The problem is that some people can't back down when they're wrong.  Their self esteem (or warped variant thereof) is too tied to their 'expertise' so they rise to any challenge rather than listening, asking questions, and analysing.  There's also a real tendency among the present generation to try claiming that they've read a book when they've clearly only seen the movie.  Then there's the agreeing and nodding sagely when they clearly know nothing about the subject and later repeating the information and pretending they discovered it on their own.

But the basic issue is that new gamers come from video games these days and haven't read a damn thing.

I did have two guys in my store nearly come to blows over the Arab Israeli War.  One had read a lot of books and played (solitaire) a few wargames. The other had served in the Canadian armed forces and spent time in Israel and had talked with veterans of the war.  Neither one could respect the type of knowledge the other had thought I think both had useful information.  The problem was their egos, I'm sure the war could manage without either of them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on December 25, 2016, 12:11:01 AM
A Merry Christmas to all!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on December 25, 2016, 01:10:08 AM
Merry Christmas everyone!

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 25, 2016, 03:10:12 AM
First, Merry Christmas to everyone in this thread:)!
Quote from: chirine ba kal;936909
Yes; agreed. I know I'm filtering people by no longer organizing game groups or convention shows; letting other people to that, so that they can have their version of reality imposed on things, has saved me a lot of stress and work over the past year. As Gronan says, no gaming is better then bad gaming, and I agree with that.
I find the "version of reality" comment worrisome and funny at the same moment, is all I can tell.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936914
Oh CROM'S hairy nutsack, yes!  As somebody who actually likes studying historical medieval armor, the crap that appears on the web now, the regurgitated third and fourth hand shit cribbed out of second rate computer game manuals and passed off as actual information, makes me want to puke so hard blood squirts out my ass!
Yeah, I know. There was a guy who tried that in the HEMA group recently in FB, I think...but I skipped the subsequent hyena packing and didn't read;).

Quote from: David Johansen;936919
The problem is that some people can't back down when they're wrong.  Their self esteem (or warped variant thereof) is too tied to their 'expertise' so they rise to any challenge rather than listening, asking questions, and analysing.
I've seen a couple or more of these over my lifetime, too...:D
It's why I have adopted the saying "while you're talking, you can't listen".], which = I sometimes tell to people. Sometimes, it even causes those that are talking too much to shut up...

Quote
There's also a real tendency among the present generation to try claiming that they've read a book when they've clearly only seen the movie.
Usually it ends in everyone else laughing...:D

Quote
Then there's the agreeing and nodding sagely when they clearly know nothing about the subject and later repeating the information and pretending they discovered it on their own.
I don't mind those that do that to me. At least they're spreading good information:p!

Quote
But the basic issue is that new gamers come from video games these days and haven't read a damn thing.
Scratch "gamers" and "videogames". Replace with "people", "TV" and "Netflix".
It's stilll just as true;).

Quote
I did have two guys in my store nearly come to blows over the Arab Israeli War.  One had read a lot of books and played (solitaire) a few wargames. The other had served in the Canadian armed forces and spent time in Israel and had talked with veterans of the war.  Neither one could respect the type of knowledge the other had thought I think both had useful information.  The problem was their egos, I'm sure the war could manage without either of them.
Give them some credit - at least they knew about the Arab Israeli War:D!
Their respect for other people's opinion can't be commended, but at least they had some knowledge. (And it's quite possible that it wasn't just a matter of ego, but of identity, too).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on December 25, 2016, 06:10:29 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;936935
Give them some credit - at least they knew about the Arab Israeli War:D!
Their respect for other people's opinion can't be commended, but at least they had some knowledge. (And it's quite possible that it wasn't just a matter of ego, but of identity, too).

I was more annoyed that it almost came to blows.  No exaggeration either.  One of the guys involved almost never comes in any more and he was the one who spent money :(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 25, 2016, 06:30:15 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;936950
I was more annoyed that it almost came to blows.  No exaggeration either.
I didn't doubt that. I've seen people fight for stupider reasons, too.

Quote
One of the guys involved almost never comes in any more and he was the one who spent money :(
Well, I'm sure that sucks for you as the store owner!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on December 25, 2016, 06:42:05 AM
I'll freely admit I like the people who come in and buy stuff much better than the ones who come in, hang around, and drive other people away. I don't have a problem with people who add something by their presence but don't have any money.  But if you don't have any money, why not at least try to be an asset to the community instead of an obnoxious prick?  Do you know why I've never had anything shoplifted in five years of business?  Because I'm a really nice guy and it's a part time store.  If someone really wants something I'll find a way to help them get it.  No, it's not profitable yet.  It may never be.  The store is really just there for product access and to defray the costs of having a really good gaming space.

Since my number one goal is to build a really good gaming community.  The assholes really get on my nerves.  But I still like the ones who buy stuff better than the ones that don't.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 25, 2016, 01:28:33 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;936955
Since my number one goal is to build a really good gaming community.  The assholes really get on my nerves.  But I still like the ones who buy stuff better than the ones that don't.

I truly wish the world worked in a way that your good deeds were rewarded by others.
As it is, I hope it is enough of a reward to yourself and am glad you can do it, if only as an example that such things exist.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 25, 2016, 01:53:13 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936913
* envy *

"Woo meeks the souse of Meekus Laycus?"

"HOLD, SIR!"

"Moo weeks the moose of..."

"YOU'RE NOT HOLDING, SIR!"


What makes this scene even better is that it's one of the outakes that got included because it was so funny. The actor playing the Roman officer is simply baffled, while Phil Silvers flubs his line and Zero Mostel steals the entire scene right out from under him.

And people talk about 'GM improvisation'... Watch enough of this kind of thing, and you'll be as good as Dave Arneson - he watched stuff like this all the time.

Today's cinematic offering on TCM was "The Robe", with Burton and Simmons phoning in their performances, and followed - in what I can only conclude was a sadistic move by the programming people - by "Ben-Hur". Parades, sea fights, and a really good chariot race. The last, by the way, can be seen if you're not into sword-and-sandal epics in a little film by a former film student who likes to do homages to great film-makers in his works. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 25, 2016, 01:54:55 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936914
Oh CROM'S hairy nutsack, yes!  As somebody who actually likes studying historical medieval armor, the crap that appears on the web now, the regurgitated third and fourth hand shit cribbed out of second rate computer game manuals and passed off as actual information, makes me want to puke so hard blood squirts out my ass!

I hear you. I've pretty much given up on trying to educate gamers, myself; seems like a waste of my time and energy.

Shrug. To each their own, I would have to say.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 25, 2016, 01:55:44 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;936919
The problem is that some people can't back down when they're wrong.  Their self esteem (or warped variant thereof) is too tied to their 'expertise' so they rise to any challenge rather than listening, asking questions, and analysing.  There's also a real tendency among the present generation to try claiming that they've read a book when they've clearly only seen the movie.  Then there's the agreeing and nodding sagely when they clearly know nothing about the subject and later repeating the information and pretending they discovered it on their own.

But the basic issue is that new gamers come from video games these days and haven't read a damn thing.

I did have two guys in my store nearly come to blows over the Arab Israeli War.  One had read a lot of books and played (solitaire) a few wargames. The other had served in the Canadian armed forces and spent time in Israel and had talked with veterans of the war.  Neither one could respect the type of knowledge the other had thought I think both had useful information.  The problem was their egos, I'm sure the war could manage without either of them.

Yep. This.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 25, 2016, 01:58:03 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;936935
First, Merry Christmas to everyone in this thread:)!

I find the "version of reality" comment worrisome and funny at the same moment, is all I can tell.


Yeah, I know. There was a guy who tried that in the HEMA group recently in FB, I think...but I skipped the subsequent hyena packing and didn't read;).


I've seen a couple or more of these over my lifetime, too...:D
It's why I have adopted the saying "while you're talking, you can't listen".], which = I sometimes tell to people. Sometimes, it even causes those that are talking too much to shut up...


Usually it ends in everyone else laughing...:D


I don't mind those that do that to me. At least they're spreading good information:p!


Scratch "gamers" and "videogames". Replace with "people", "TV" and "Netflix".
It's stilll just as true;).


Give them some credit - at least they knew about the Arab Israeli War:D!
Their respect for other people's opinion can't be commended, but at least they had some knowledge. (And it's quite possible that it wasn't just a matter of ego, but of identity, too).

All good points. I still find the need for 'political correctness in gaming' bizarre when one faction insists on excluding some other faction because they don;t hew to the first faction's particular party line. As a gay friend remarked, "it's just like gay bath house politics..."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 25, 2016, 02:01:15 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;936955
I'll freely admit I like the people who come in and buy stuff much better than the ones who come in, hang around, and drive other people away. I don't have a problem with people who add something by their presence but don't have any money.  But if you don't have any money, why not at least try to be an asset to the community instead of an obnoxious prick?  Do you know why I've never had anything shoplifted in five years of business?  Because I'm a really nice guy and it's a part time store.  If someone really wants something I'll find a way to help them get it.  No, it's not profitable yet.  It may never be.  The store is really just there for product access and to defray the costs of having a really good gaming space.

Since my number one goal is to build a really good gaming community.  The assholes really get on my nerves.  But I still like the ones who buy stuff better than the ones that don't.

Agreed. Even though the Missus and I live on a pretty tight budget, I always try to find something I can use in my FLGS and give them the sale. I much prefer to buy from them then on-line as well, but my addiction to 25/28mm makes my choices fewer and fewer. Although TRE Games doe make up for it - I'm being very sorely tempted by their amazing building kits. You've seen the galley, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 25, 2016, 02:01:54 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;936971
I truly wish the world worked in a way that your good deeds were rewarded by others.
As it is, I hope it is enough of a reward to yourself and am glad you can do it, if only as an example that such things exist.
=

Seconded!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 25, 2016, 06:56:15 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;936974
What makes this scene even better is that it's one of the outakes that got included because it was so funny. The actor playing the Roman officer is simply baffled, while Phil Silvers flubs his line and Zero Mostel steals the entire scene right out from under him.

And people talk about 'GM improvisation'... Watch enough of this kind of thing, and you'll be as good as Dave Arneson - he watched stuff like this all the time.

Today's cinematic offering on TCM was "The Robe", with Burton and Simmons phoning in their performances, and followed - in what I can only conclude was a sadistic move by the programming people - by "Ben-Hur". Parades, sea fights, and a really good chariot race. The last, by the way, can be seen if you're not into sword-and-sandal epics in a little film by a former film student who likes to do homages to great film-makers in his works. :)

Jeez, haven't seen "The Robe" since I was a teenager; it used to be an Easter regular.  I'm WAY overdue to watch Ben-Hur again.

And when my oldest brother and I were watching the fourth movie in the series by that former film student, oddly released as "one", when the chariots locked "hubs" we laughed out loud.

Not to mention sometime later in the same film the shout out to Spartacus as the evil bad guy legions march in checkerboard formation across the rolling hills... :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 25, 2016, 07:19:08 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;937007
Jeez, haven't seen "The Robe" since I was a teenager; it used to be an Easter regular.  I'm WAY overdue to watch Ben-Hur again.

And when my oldest brother and I were watching the fourth movie in the series by that former film student, oddly released as "one", when the chariots locked "hubs" we laughed out loud.

Not to mention sometime later in the same film the shout out to Spartacus as the evil bad guy legions march in checkerboard formation across the rolling hills... :D

Sometimes Sir Richard clicks, and sometimes he doesn't. "Where Eagles Dare", with him and Clint Eastwood as the comedy duo out to win the war, is one of those where he does. In "The Robe", he simply doesn't for some reason.

Oooo! Oooo! (Raises hand) Or the first / fourth one in the same series where the beautiful princess is being chased by the evil armored bad guys and is saved by the retired general and the two comic sidekicks! And then ends the film with an homage to another film maker, who was and still is Very Politically Incorrect. (Betcha nobody gets that one, my General!)

The Missus and I were comparing the 1959 'Ben-Hur" to the recent one, and the recent CGI version isn't nearly as impressive. On the other hand, you'd never be able to afford the insurance these days for anything else - the huge stink that erupted when the studio found out that Mr. Crowe was actually climbing up into the rigging does say a lot. The increase to the insurance rider nearly scuttled that movie - if I may use a nautical metaphor, there. The very idea of the bankable stars running around in an arena full of horses and people at speed would cause any studio head to have the vapors and grasp for a pen to approve the CGI budget in a frenzy of self-preservation.

Tomorrow? Yet to be seen... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 25, 2016, 08:23:49 PM
Don't forget the 1925 silent "Ben-Hur," where the director thought the chariot race scenes were too dull so he offered the stuntmen $1000 to whoever won the race.  In the first take in Italy one stuntman was killed.  Nobody was killed in the second take in the US, but in both versions many of the horses died or were injured so badly they had to be destroyed.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 25, 2016, 08:34:54 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;937022
Don't forget the 1925 silent "Ben-Hur," where the director thought the chariot race scenes were too dull so he offered the stuntmen $1000 to whoever won the race.  In the first take in Italy one stuntman was killed.  Nobody was killed in the second take in the US, but in both versions many of the horses died or were injured so badly they had to be destroyed.


Or, also from the 1925 version, the big sea battle fought actually out at sea - nobody had built a studio tank, yet - and it transpired that quite a few of the extras didn't know how to swim. After they'd gone overboard, of course...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on December 26, 2016, 12:29:49 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;936971
I truly wish the world worked in a way that your good deeds were rewarded by others.
As it is, I hope it is enough of a reward to yourself and am glad you can do it, if only as an example that such things exist.
=


Well it's not a roaring success.  It might have worked better in a larger city.  I need to work harder at making it profitable.  From what I'm seeing that probably means painting miniatures to sell and doing on-line sales.  I've been working on sculpting 1/32 stuff to cast and paint up as curios as many walk-ins just aren't looking to spend hundreds of hours and dollars on a new hobby.  I need to try and do some wargame tournaments or events.  Roleplaying just doesn't make as much money as miniatures.  I also need to finish up some of my own games and try to make a few bucks there.  I think there's light at the end of the tunnel this year.  But sadly, I never did capture much of the market here.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 26, 2016, 05:34:53 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;937112
From what I'm seeing that probably means painting miniatures to sell and doing on-line sales.  I've been working on sculpting 1/32 stuff to cast and paint up as curios ...
Is 3D printing affordable yet? Seems that "curios" could be made on demand if so.
Or a laser cutter for on-demand heavy paper props.

An in store or web program that allows customers to select their personalized options and then generate them there for pickup may be interesting.
Dungeon layout pieces as needed?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 26, 2016, 05:40:49 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;937112
Well it's not a roaring success.  It might have worked better in a larger city.  I need to work harder at making it profitable.  From what I'm seeing that probably means painting miniatures to sell and doing on-line sales.  I've been working on sculpting 1/32 stuff to cast and paint up as curios as many walk-ins just aren't looking to spend hundreds of hours and dollars on a new hobby.  I need to try and do some wargame tournaments or events.  Roleplaying just doesn't make as much money as miniatures.  I also need to finish up some of my own games and try to make a few bucks there.  I think there's light at the end of the tunnel this year.  But sadly, I never did capture much of the market here.

Don't be too hard on yourself; a lot of what you're saying is also true here in the Twin Cities, which is probably a larger 'catchment basin' then where you are. here, miniatures are a dead issue. Unless you play the top four or five 'brand name' games, there is very little retail support of any kind for them; not surprising, as they just don't sell - mostly because there is no support or community present to put on games and make people feel welcome. There is a lot of 'private club' mentality here, which keeps new people at bay. RPGs do sell a bit better, but that's mostly because the biggest local game store has a guy who runs them like a maniac, with multiple sessions of various games each week. Pathfinder does well, but that's because of the very persuasive on-line support from Piazo and the support they provide to the retailer.

CCGs and comics are the mainstay money-makers hereabouts, with RPGs a distant second, and miniatures waaay off in the corner as a sort of nod to the past history of gaming. The biggest local FLGS has been dumping a lot of their historical miniatures stock at 75% off list, just to get rid of it, and concentrating on lines that attract attention in the gaming press and have lots of support from the producers. The little 'boutique' miniatures sellers (and small RPG 'indies' too, for that matter) are pretty much all gone from the retail scene, and are now Internet/mail order houses. I'm told that FFG makes their money on their event center from their food and beverage sales, not from the retail game sales. 'Generic' stuff simply does not sell; there had to be a dedicated set of rules and events / tournament support for specific lines in order for them to sell. There is some of it on the racks, but under a deal with the manufacturers as what amounts to 'consignment sales' deals.

I think you're looking at on-line and promotional events are the right track. All of the local stores now have their on-line component, and a lot of the more interesting stuff is found there; lower overheads, lower costs, and higher profit margins. The retail space itself is aimed at the walk-in market, with the idea of getting people in to play - once they play, they'll buy.

I still drop by there on a regular basis, but I have stopped going to the other and smaller stores in the Twin Cities; no changes in their merchandise lines, and I've pretty much bought out anything and everything from them that I was interested in. About the only stuff I buy retail these days is TRE Games stuff, as they have a big display where I can see the merchandise before I but it. The trireme was a good example of an 'impulse buy'; saw it, picked it up, and fell in love with it. A quick $80 sale, there.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 26, 2016, 07:15:48 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;937143
Don't be too hard on yourself; a lot of what you're saying is also true here in the Twin Cities, which is probably a larger 'catchment basin' then where you are. here, miniatures are a dead issue. Unless you play the top four or five 'brand name' games, there is very little retail support of any kind for them; not surprising, as they just don't sell - mostly because there is no support or community present to put on games and make people feel welcome. There is a lot of 'private club' mentality here, which keeps new people at bay. RPGs do sell a bit better, but that's mostly because the biggest local game store has a guy who runs them like a maniac, with multiple sessions of various games each week. Pathfinder does well, but that's because of the very persuasive on-line support from Piazo and the support they provide to the retailer.

CCGs and comics are the mainstay money-makers hereabouts, with RPGs a distant second, and miniatures waaay off in the corner as a sort of nod to the past history of gaming. The biggest local FLGS has been dumping a lot of their historical miniatures stock at 75% off list, just to get rid of it, and concentrating on lines that attract attention in the gaming press and have lots of support from the producers. The little 'boutique' miniatures sellers (and small RPG 'indies' too, for that matter) are pretty much all gone from the retail scene, and are now Internet/mail order houses. I'm told that FFG makes their money on their event center from their food and beverage sales, not from the retail game sales. 'Generic' stuff simply does not sell; there had to be a dedicated set of rules and events / tournament support for specific lines in order for them to sell. There is some of it on the racks, but under a deal with the manufacturers as what amounts to 'consignment sales' deals.

I think you're looking at on-line and promotional events are the right track. All of the local stores now have their on-line component, and a lot of the more interesting stuff is found there; lower overheads, lower costs, and higher profit margins. The retail space itself is aimed at the walk-in market, with the idea of getting people in to play - once they play, they'll buy.

I still drop by there on a regular basis, but I have stopped going to the other and smaller stores in the Twin Cities; no changes in their merchandise lines, and I've pretty much bought out anything and everything from them that I was interested in. About the only stuff I buy retail these days is TRE Games stuff, as they have a big display where I can see the merchandise before I but it. The trireme was a good example of an 'impulse buy'; saw it, picked it up, and fell in love with it. A quick $80 sale, there.

* cries *

I know it's true, but damn.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 26, 2016, 07:50:42 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;937142
Is 3D printing affordable yet? Seems that "curios" could be made on demand if so.
Or a laser cutter for on-demand heavy paper props.

An in store or web program that allows customers to select their personalized options and then generate them there for pickup may be interesting.
Dungeon layout pieces as needed?
=

You get what you pay for. The better - and more expensive - machines create better products, but the real barrier to cheap production is the software skills needed to create the files for the machines. Simple objects are, I am told, available as stock items for sale, but anything custom means a lot of labor. poser art had the same issues for quite a while; you could get the stock stuff really cheap, but anything custom cost.

Resin casting is still more cost-effective for anything that needs to be duplicated; 3-D still shines for prototyping. Laser-cutting falls between the two, and it all depends on who you can call on. Me, I'm lazy, and go with TRE Games stuff.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 26, 2016, 08:00:54 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;937154
* cries *

I know it's true, but damn.

Yep. The big money, my General, is in a hot dog stand with lots of tables where people can play games and log onto the Internet. Just like the FFG Events Center, actually. People go there as a 'destination', and spend the day noshing on the food and drink. Guess what has the highest profit margins?

If I were to suddenly lose my mind and want to run a game convention, I would not charge for entry at all - I'd book one heck of a lot of games, and then have exclusive rights to the concessions stands. Like Origins and Gen Con, back in our day, where the convention center was the one who made piles and piles of money off the people in the hall - or GPS, these days, selling chips and sodas at Recon.

And as for the kind of gaming we used to do, where a bunch of friends got together at somebody's house for an afternoon and/or evening of fun and gaming, forget it. That seems to be as dead as the proverbial dodo, hereabouts. Suggest such a thing, and you get looked at like you're an axe murderer looking for prey.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 26, 2016, 09:00:49 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;937157
...  3-D still shines for prototyping.
That is what I'm talking about. YOUR character not an army of generic troops.
The software to do it is getting more available all the time.

People will pay a premium for Their Character if the quality is acceptable.
Incremental charges for accessories are a slippery slope as well.
Even if they never actually play a game with the character, having it is an attraction.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 26, 2016, 09:00:49 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;937158
Yep. The big money, my General, is in a hot dog stand with lots of tables where people can play games and log onto the Internet. Just like the FFG Events Center, actually. People go there as a 'destination', and spend the day noshing on the food and drink. Guess what has the highest profit margins?

If I were to suddenly lose my mind and want to run a game convention, I would not charge for entry at all - I'd book one heck of a lot of games, and then have exclusive rights to the concessions stands. Like Origins and Gen Con, back in our day, where the convention center was the one who made piles and piles of money off the people in the hall - or GPS, these days, selling chips and sodas at Recon.

And as for the kind of gaming we used to do, where a bunch of friends got together at somebody's house for an afternoon and/or evening of fun and gaming, forget it. That seems to be as dead as the proverbial dodo, hereabouts. Suggest such a thing, and you get looked at like you're an axe murderer looking for prey.

Find us a venue where we can serve beer and we'll both be rich.  Even food is chump change compared to drinks.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 26, 2016, 09:03:41 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;937171
That is what I'm talking about. YOUR character not an army of generic troops.
The software to do it is getting more available all the time.

People will pay a premium for Their Character if the quality is acceptable.
Incremental charges for accessories are a slippery slope as well.
Even if they never actually play a game with the character, having it is an attraction.
=

Agreed! The detail that I've seen on samples is good enough for 54mm figures, but a little too coarse for 25 / 28 mm figures. Give it time; it'll come.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 26, 2016, 09:09:57 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;937172
Find us a venue where we can serve beer and we'll both be rich.  Even food is chump change compared to drinks.

FFG's Event Center; last time I looked, four beers on tap, none of them the cheap stuff. If they weren't in Rosedale, in an industrial park, they'd get a lot more walk-in traffic. But then, the building lease was cheap, and that would go up in a better location. See also the very posh gaming-with-wine-and-beer places on the West Coast; Seattle is a hotbed of these.

Get the license, train the staff, and your fortune is assured. Start-up costs would be highish, but them's the breaks. I'd locate it in someplace like Chicago, myself; the Twin Cities suffers from lousy public transportation and is just a little too spread out to be really efficient.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 26, 2016, 10:41:53 PM
If I ever have any time in the Cities I'll have to stop by FFG.

I like the basics of the X-wing game, but then... giving in to market forces, granted... they had to add the "deck building" element of more and more different ships to buy and more goop you can hang off the basic ship.

Nobody wants to play "This is your P-51D, it's just like all the other 8,155 P-51Ds out there.  The difference is your skill" any more.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Black Vulmea on December 26, 2016, 10:56:59 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;937179
Nobody wants to play "This is your P-51D, it's just like all the other 8,155 P-51Ds out there.  The difference is your skill" any more.

Silly rabbit. Why develop skill when you can invest in cards to stack your deck instead?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on December 27, 2016, 12:55:50 AM
So, the situation here is that five years ago there were two stores that carried games, one was more of a comic shop and one was more of a game shop.  Neither was making much of an effort and I thought I could get the support of the fairly strong Warhammer 40000 community to come and use my tables and have more hours, more table space, no carders trashing the store scenery I'd made because the owner didn't care.

What I didn't know is that somebody else was already planning to open a store and building his own support.  If he'd told me as much straight up I'd have let him and thrown in my support for his venture.  I just wanted a gaming area that had a bathroom available after hours and had enough space that stuff wouldn't get knocked on the floor by people squeezing through because there wasn't enough space.

Anyhow, after a year he opened up and as a result the other stores picked up their game.  They didn't mind me because I didn't have any money to work with and they were established.  Anyhow, it's a very tight market and the competition is so bad that nobody makes money on Magic.  Oh well, I've been going five years and going into the third year of a bad recession in Alberta, I expect my competitors are hurting too.

And, I've made my share of mistakes:
The cheap rent helps but the location stinks.  Of pot from the tenants upstairs mostly.  I out lasted one batch of pot heads and now a new batch has moved in.  If I had the money I'd just move and tell the land lord he's had a full game worth of strikes.

I said some true things about Games Workshop when pressed about why I don't play Warhammer anymore.  The fact they lost money for a couple of years and turned away from several bad policies as a result proves that I was right but it didn't make me any friends.

I've stocked things I liked and failed to sell them.  I've been honest about the drawbacks of various products rather than selling really difficult kits to unskilled modellers.

I've given too many discounts (usually because I need the cash pretty badly) and people have come to expect them without considering their impact on me.

I've been paralysed by doubt at times and haven't promoted the store like I needed to.  Why spend money on promotion when you expect to give notice and close next month?

And I don't run leagues and tournaments.  Honestly, I hate leagues and tournaments.  I really do.  If I hade people who wanted to run them I'd provide prize support and stuff, but personally it's a toxic mentality for the hobby.  Sure an arms race can lead to sales but the competitive nature of the things also drives new players out of the hobby.

Oh well, one thing I've been thinking about a lot is that the hobby has become too expensive for many of my customers.  I'm not sure how to approach it.  But there are guys who might like miniatures games if they could afford them.  This is a combination of factors.  Kings of War is a fast, fun game but it runs best with a couple hundred figures on the table.  That's a barrier to entry.  I'm wondering if Frost Grave or something might serve better.   I do carry Mutant Chronicles Warzone which is in the 30-50 figure range, but the figures are in a resin that's hard to paint and the figures, while neat, are often hard to assemble though their newer releases have moved towards fewer pieces and the game is very detailed and complex.

Oh well, we'll see what the new year brings.  :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 27, 2016, 06:56:41 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;937193
And I don't run leagues and tournaments.  Honestly, I hate leagues and tournaments.  I really do.  If I had people who wanted to run them I'd provide prize support and stuff, but personally it's a toxic mentality for the hobby.  Sure an arms race can lead to sales but the competitive nature of the things also drives new players out of the hobby.
While it may be a toxic mentality, it is also returning traffic.

Maybe there are team games like Zombicide, a cooperative boardgame, that would work?
(plus sell Characters for it/them)

It is all about the social experience. Stuff can be bought online but Face to Face is not yet an option.
While the video chat options have improved a lot over the years. It is still great to get out of the house.
I'm guilty of playing MtG for years and supporting a specific local store just for the face time it gives me once a week.

If Tekumel gaming was more popular, you could have replaceable paper setting models that people could use for games in the store.
Then sell them replacement copies.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 27, 2016, 12:31:53 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;937179
If I ever have any time in the Cities I'll have to stop by FFG.

I like the basics of the X-wing game, but then... giving in to market forces, granted... they had to add the "deck building" element of more and more different ships to buy and more goop you can hang off the basic ship.

Nobody wants to play "This is your P-51D, it's just like all the other 8,155 P-51Ds out there.  The difference is your skill" any more.


And in some circles that I've observed, 'skill' is near akin to outright cheating.  Gaming, in a lot of ways, has become "my shambling mathematical construct lurches into your shambling mathematical construct, and we roll dice until our eyes bleed." Thank you, but no; I'll stick with what I like, and this ain't it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 27, 2016, 12:32:50 PM
Quote from: Black Vulmea;937181
Silly rabbit. Why develop skill when you can invest in cards to stack your deck instead?

A very accurate observation. Them that has the most money to invest in the game stuff wins the game.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 27, 2016, 12:38:23 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;937193
So, the situation here is that five years ago there were two stores that carried games, one was more of a comic shop and one was more of a game shop.  Neither was making much of an effort and I thought I could get the support of the fairly strong Warhammer 40000 community to come and use my tables and have more hours, more table space, no carders trashing the store scenery I'd made because the owner didn't care.

What I didn't know is that somebody else was already planning to open a store and building his own support.  If he'd told me as much straight up I'd have let him and thrown in my support for his venture.  I just wanted a gaming area that had a bathroom available after hours and had enough space that stuff wouldn't get knocked on the floor by people squeezing through because there wasn't enough space.

Anyhow, after a year he opened up and as a result the other stores picked up their game.  They didn't mind me because I didn't have any money to work with and they were established.  Anyhow, it's a very tight market and the competition is so bad that nobody makes money on Magic.  Oh well, I've been going five years and going into the third year of a bad recession in Alberta, I expect my competitors are hurting too.

And, I've made my share of mistakes:
The cheap rent helps but the location stinks.  Of pot from the tenants upstairs mostly.  I out lasted one batch of pot heads and now a new batch has moved in.  If I had the money I'd just move and tell the land lord he's had a full game worth of strikes.

I said some true things about Games Workshop when pressed about why I don't play Warhammer anymore.  The fact they lost money for a couple of years and turned away from several bad policies as a result proves that I was right but it didn't make me any friends.

I've stocked things I liked and failed to sell them.  I've been honest about the drawbacks of various products rather than selling really difficult kits to unskilled modellers.

I've given too many discounts (usually because I need the cash pretty badly) and people have come to expect them without considering their impact on me.

I've been paralysed by doubt at times and haven't promoted the store like I needed to.  Why spend money on promotion when you expect to give notice and close next month?

And I don't run leagues and tournaments.  Honestly, I hate leagues and tournaments.  I really do.  If I hade people who wanted to run them I'd provide prize support and stuff, but personally it's a toxic mentality for the hobby.  Sure an arms race can lead to sales but the competitive nature of the things also drives new players out of the hobby.

Oh well, one thing I've been thinking about a lot is that the hobby has become too expensive for many of my customers.  I'm not sure how to approach it.  But there are guys who might like miniatures games if they could afford them.  This is a combination of factors.  Kings of War is a fast, fun game but it runs best with a couple hundred figures on the table.  That's a barrier to entry.  I'm wondering if Frost Grave or something might serve better.   I do carry Mutant Chronicles Warzone which is in the 30-50 figure range, but the figures are in a resin that's hard to paint and the figures, while neat, are often hard to assemble though their newer releases have moved towards fewer pieces and the game is very detailed and complex.

Oh well, we'll see what the new year brings.  :)

Ouch; I hear you.

I agree with you about tournament play, but I also agree with Greentongue that it does pack them into the shop. Not the kind of play that I like, but it does sell the merchandise a lot of the time.

Promotion. Always. without it, nobody knows you're there, and you wind up with overheads and no customers. I can sympathize with you on this; been there, done that, stuck with the fifty T-shirts that the customer didn't pay for.

Discounts. Ouch. Have you considered a 'loyalty card' sort of thing, where regular customers can 'earn' discounts with regular purchases?

And your upstairs folk are a killer; they'll drive away a lot of your customers... :(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 27, 2016, 12:41:24 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;937222
While it may be a toxic mentality, it is also returning traffic.

Maybe there are team games like Zombicide, a cooperative boardgame, that would work?
(plus sell Characters for it/them)

It is all about the social experience. Stuff can be bought online but Face to Face is not yet an option.
While the video chat options have improved a lot over the years. It is still great to get out of the house.
I'm guilty of playing MtG for years and supporting a specific local store just for the face time it gives me once a week.

If Tekumel gaming was more popular, you could have replaceable paper setting models that people could use for games in the store.
Then sell them replacement copies.
=

Agreed! All very good points.

As for Tekumel gaming in stores, it's got the problem of not having much of anything to put on the shelf, and in the current 'regulatory environment' that's not likely to change any time soon.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on December 27, 2016, 01:02:35 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;937266
Ouch; I hear you.
stuck with the fifty T-shirts that the customer didn't pay for.

Discounts. Ouch. Have you considered a 'loyalty card' sort of thing, where regular customers can 'earn' discounts with regular purchases?

And your upstairs folk are a killer; they'll drive away a lot of your customers... :(

At one point there were pole dancing classes downstairs.  Had a number of people suggest I should look at a business model involving a peep hole.  Honestly there was only one time I really wanted one.  There was a loud crash and a lot of laughing.  I bet it was a badly failed leaping mount.

The problem with discounts is that everyone else is offering them and everyone expects them as a result.  Especially with the low Canadian dollar this last year.  Everything jumping 50% is brutal and right now people just don't have money for toys.  One of the reasons I want to do casting is it lets me get a larger profit margin on something while selling it for less.  I also have this fantasy about doing an Arcane Confabulation boxed set with a wooden box, foam padding, and miniatures.  Essentially using separate heads and hands to increase variety while keeping the number of moulds down.

Have you ever worked in screen printing?  I've been doing it as a day job for 27 years.  I've considered setting up to do it myself a few times but don't really enjoy it enough to want to.

I may actually have players that would go for Tekumal.  Is the Jeff Dee Bethorm thing a fully playable game?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 27, 2016, 01:18:20 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;937272
I may actually have players that would go for Tekumal.  Is the Jeff Dee Bethorm thing a fully playable game?

Yes, and I like it.
Can't tell if it would be a good investment for your store, but I have been playing with it for a while now  (after I got bored of translating spells on the fly to my homebrew). If it is about running it, though, you might want to give it a shot.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 27, 2016, 01:52:04 PM
chirine,
I know that the High Calligraphy involved touch and more.
What about other skills?
Things like Inca Knots (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quipu) that the players may find arcane but the characters would understand?
Did you encounter these type of things.
Seems like it would give a nice feel of alienness and widen the separation between players and out of character knowledge.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 27, 2016, 02:58:03 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;937272
At one point there were pole dancing classes downstairs.  Had a number of people suggest I should look at a business model involving a peep hole.  Honestly there was only one time I really wanted one.  There was a loud crash and a lot of laughing.  I bet it was a badly failed leaping mount.

The problem with discounts is that everyone else is offering them and everyone expects them as a result.  Especially with the low Canadian dollar this last year.  Everything jumping 50% is brutal and right now people just don't have money for toys.  One of the reasons I want to do casting is it lets me get a larger profit margin on something while selling it for less.  I also have this fantasy about doing an Arcane Confabulation boxed set with a wooden box, foam padding, and miniatures.  Essentially using separate heads and hands to increase variety while keeping the number of moulds down.

Have you ever worked in screen printing?  I've been doing it as a day job for 27 years.  I've considered setting up to do it myself a few times but don't really enjoy it enough to want to.

I may actually have players that would go for Tekumal.  Is the Jeff Dee Bethorm thing a fully playable game?

Gotcha. You're in one of those retail locations.

That situation with the discounts is bad. Add in the economic factors, and it really will hurt.

Doing the casting may very well help - if you can position yourself as being the 'sole source' for something that will sell, you'll be in a much better position. Are you talking metal casting or resin? The start-up investment in the latter is a lot lower, as I'm sure you know.

Yes. We're set up for short-run stuff here, which is how we got stuck with the fifty T-shirts when the end customer got cold feet. It can look nice, but you are right - it is a lot of hard work.

I think it is, and it's also got some support stuff for it. At this point, it's literally the only viable / playable thing out there for Tekumel - EPT is playable, but there's so little in support stuff due to the past publishing history - so I'd see what kind of terms you could get from Uni Games.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 27, 2016, 02:58:37 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;937280
Yes, and I like it.
Can't tell if it would be a good investment for your store, but I have been playing with it for a while now  (after I got bored of translating spells on the fly to my homebrew). If it is about running it, though, you might want to give it a shot.

Agreed; I'd try it out on the audience before making any big investment.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 27, 2016, 03:18:44 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;937289
chirine,
I know that the High Calligraphy involved touch and more.
What about other skills?
Things like Inca Knots (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quipu) that the players may find arcane but the characters would understand?
Did you encounter these type of things.
Seems like it would give a nice feel of alienness and widen the separation between players and out of character knowledge.
=

Yes, we did. A lot of the 'local cultures' have stuff like this; we specifically ran into the quipu, as well as 'talking sticks', 'tally sticks', 'talking stones' and other non-linguistic communications devices. Bascially, they all encode information that a trained reader can decipher, and they do make useful plot points. Add in all the linguistic stuff we'd find - plaques, books, scrolls, wall paintings. murals, inscriptions, etc. - we'd usually be able to get a fair bit of information from our surroundings. Heck, just asking a local was a usual thing for us.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 27, 2016, 08:02:15 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;937327
Yes, we did. A lot of the 'local cultures' have stuff like this; we specifically ran into the quipu, as well as 'talking sticks', 'tally sticks', 'talking stones' and other non-linguistic communications devices. Bascially, they all encode information that a trained reader can decipher, and they do make useful plot points. Add in all the linguistic stuff we'd find - plaques, books, scrolls, wall paintings. murals, inscriptions, etc. - we'd usually be able to get a fair bit of information from our surroundings. Heck, just asking a local was a usual thing for us.

Was it that character's with the specific skills could read / use them or was there some "Save vs Understand" roll involved for any character?
As in, did the players have to puzzle them out or just find someone with the skill if their character didn't have it?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on December 27, 2016, 09:10:27 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;937317
Yes. We're set up for short-run stuff here, which is how we got stuck with the fifty T-shirts when the end customer got cold feet. It can look nice, but you are right - it is a lot of hard work.

I think we'd need a whole new thread to talk shop on that one.  Ever get a guy who comes in twice a year to get 20 shirts and then hovers and calls constantly and acts like he's the most important contract you'll ever have?

Or kids who want to start a clothing line so they copy their favorite skateboard designs and put their tag on them?  Every year we get a couple and my boss swears its the last time.

Or the guy who wants one more shirt of the design you did six months ago and just doesn't get why you didn't save the screen :D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 28, 2016, 05:21:58 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;937380
Was it that character's with the specific skills could read / use them or was there some "Save vs Understand" roll involved for any character?
As in, did the players have to puzzle them out or just find someone with the skill if their character didn't have it?
=

Generally, Phil preferred to let us try to puzzle the thing out, rather then roll against something. In cases where he did let people roll, it was "your INTelligence or under", and he'd very heavily weight the roll as needed. Phil's gaming style was to let us figure things out, and we'd try; if we were totally stumped, we'd look around for somebody who had some idea of how the thing worked. Which suited Phil just fine, as it would usually lead into new adventures - Phil was not very much into mechanics in his personal gaming, and much preferred us to interact with the NPCs. Unfortunately, the downside to this was that it was very hard for 'outsiders' to replicate his game style, and he attempted to address this with S&G's vast compendium (over 900 pages worth) of tables. The net result was not a very good replication of how he actually gamed.

"Bethorm", on the other hand, is a much better simulation of how Phil actually played. Less tables, for one thing, and what looks to me like simpler mechanics.

Trying to replicate Dave Arneson's actual playing style runs into the same issue; of the Big Three, Dave was much more 'improv', and it's very hard to convey that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 28, 2016, 05:27:19 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;937386
I think we'd need a whole new thread to talk shop on that one.  Ever get a guy who comes in twice a year to get 20 shirts and then hovers and calls constantly and acts like he's the most important contract you'll ever have?

Or kids who want to start a clothing line so they copy their favorite skateboard designs and put their tag on them?  Every year we get a couple and my boss swears its the last time.

Or the guy who wants one more shirt of the design you did six months ago and just doesn't get why you didn't save the screen :D

Probably. I've had the same situations; the all time over-the-top one was when  guy called me at AGI, wanting to know where his order was, and telling me that unless he got his Tekumel stuff right away, he was going to kill himself. I got the details of his order, and it transpired that he'd mailed it the day before from his home on the East Coast; we hadn't gotten it yet. I told him we'd pack up a duplicate order and send it that day, but also that we did say in all our publications that the customer should allow two weeks for shipping and handling - this was in 1981, remember. Shipped the order, and called his local police and explained the situation and suggested that they do a welfare check on him.

And people wonder why I don't want to be on the retail / commercial / publishing end of gaming... :rolleyes:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 28, 2016, 05:45:52 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;937577
Generally, Phil preferred to let us try to puzzle the thing out, rather then roll against something. In cases where he did let people roll, it was "your INTelligence or under", and he'd very heavily weight the roll as needed. Phil's gaming style was to let us figure things out, and we'd try; if we were totally stumped, we'd look around for somebody who had some idea of how the thing worked. Which suited Phil just fine, as it would usually lead into new adventures - Phil was not very much into mechanics in his personal gaming, and much preferred us to interact with the NPCs. Unfortunately, the downside to this was that it was very hard for 'outsiders' to replicate his game style, and he attempted to address this with S&G's vast compendium (over 900 pages worth) of tables. The net result was not a very good replication of how he actually gamed.

"Bethorm", on the other hand, is a much better simulation of how Phil actually played. Less tables, for one thing, and what looks to me like simpler mechanics.

Trying to replicate Dave Arneson's actual playing style runs into the same issue; of the Big Three, Dave was much more 'improv', and it's very hard to convey that.

Definitely simpler mechanics, when it comes to Bethorm:).

When you say the Big Three, Uncle, do you mean Arneson, Gygax and Barker, or Arneson, Gygax and Wesely?

Also, I hear that Arneson treated magic items as gaining in power if you know their history, can you give us an example;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 28, 2016, 06:13:58 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;937580
Definitely simpler mechanics, when it comes to Bethorm:).

When you say the Big Three, Uncle, do you mean Arneson, Gygax and Barker, or Arneson, Gygax and Wesely?

Also, I hear that Arneson treated magic items as gaining in power if you know their history, can you give us an example;)?

Yep. Which is why I suggest it to people when they ask about a good RPG for Tekumel.

Dave, Gary, and Phil; pretty much nobody has heard of the good Major, his games, and his contributions to the evolution of RPGs. Which I think is a shame, but then I like Braunsteins...

Well, he liked to add 'juice' to the artifact if you took the time to research the thing; it was a way to reward players for them taking the time to think.

Sure; Chirine's nasty mace. Started out in Blackmoor as a normal steel-headed mace (available from Chris Poor at Arms and Armor, $85) and then regained the +4 +5 stats I'd rolled up for it in Phil's campaign after I gave Dave the whole sordid history of the thing and it's connections to the ancient Dragon Lords.

Arneson, I think in revenge, then sold me the dozen magic elvish bang-sticks and the pair of hand-held bang things. Phil. it had to be said, was not amused.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 28, 2016, 07:21:42 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;937583
Sure; Chirine's nasty mace. Started out in Blackmoor as a normal steel-headed mace (available from Chris Poor at Arms and Armor, $85) and then regained the +4 +5 stats I'd rolled up for it in Phil's campaign after I gave Dave the whole sordid history of the thing and it's connections to the ancient Dragon Lords.
Thank you for the other answers, Uncle, those are crystal clear! But while the mace thing was clear as well, I'd like some more explanation for how the "regaining bonuses" worked with the mace.

Did you know the history of the item already, and just had to recognize it? Did you have to go and research it in long-forgotten tomes in ancient dungeons? Did you have to perform a ritual, or a specific deed, in order to "connect" to it?

Or maybe it was a combination of the above, or something else entirely?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 28, 2016, 07:40:31 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;937578
Probably. I've had the same situations; the all time over-the-top one was when  guy called me at AGI, wanting to know where his order was, and telling me that unless he got his Tekumel stuff right away, he was going to kill himself. I got the details of his order, and it transpired that he'd mailed it the day before from his home on the East Coast; we hadn't gotten it yet. I told him we'd pack up a duplicate order and send it that day, but also that we did say in all our publications that the customer should allow two weeks for shipping and handling - this was in 1981, remember. Shipped the order, and called his local police and explained the situation and suggested that they do a welfare check on him.

And people wonder why I don't want to be on the retail / commercial / publishing end of gaming... :rolleyes:

Oh holy crap, was that that loon down in ... where was it, Texas?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 28, 2016, 07:48:47 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;937587
Thank you for the other answers, Uncle, those are crystal clear! But while the mace thing was clear as well, I'd like some more explanation for how the "regaining bonuses" worked with the mace.

Did you know the history of the item already, and just had to recognize it? Did you have to go and research it in long-forgotten tomes in ancient dungeons? Did you have to perform a ritual, or a specific deed, in order to "connect" to it?

Or maybe it was a combination of the above, or something else entirely?


Something else entirely. Dave asked why I preferred a mace, and I told him that it was an ancient family heirloom, going - supposedly - back to the time of the Dragon Lords. He took this and ran with it, and my new friendship with A Certain Gigantic Golden Dragon came into play; Said dragon took the mace, and re-tempered in her dragon's breath, and voila! Pluses restored, and the locals were yea verily Mightily Impressed with both her, it, and me.

I made the whole story up on the spot, to explain why a relatively unknown and minor priest was running around Tsolyanu with such a weapon; it'd been the results of the dice rolls on the EPT table, back in 1976, and Phil 'suggested' that I come up with a good story as to why I had the thing.

"It's on his card, so it's legit." Barker to Arneson, 1982 or so.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 28, 2016, 07:50:03 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;937591
Oh holy crap, was that that loon down in ... where was it, Texas?

Nope; different person. East Coast.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 28, 2016, 07:53:06 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;937593
Something else entirely. Dave asked why I preferred a mace, and I told him that it was an ancient family heirloom, going - supposedly - back to the time of the Dragon Lords. He took this and ran with it, and my new friendship with A Certain Gigantic Golden Dragon came into play; Said dragon took the mace, and re-tempered in her dragon's breath, and voila! Pluses restored, and the locals were yea verily Mightily Impressed with both her, it, and me.

I made the whole story up on the spot, to explain why a relatively unknown and minor priest was running around Tsolyanu with such a weapon; it'd been the results of the dice rolls on the EPT table, back in 1976, and Phil 'suggested' that I come up with a good story as to why I had the thing.

"It's on his card, so it's legit." Barker to Arneson, 1982 or so.

OK, that was both funny, and totally in-genre!

Did he always proceed like that? Or were there other weapons or other items that had histories pre-determined by Arneson that you had to research?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 28, 2016, 08:00:55 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;937596
OK, that was both funny, and totally in-genre!

Did he always proceed like that? Or were there other weapons or other items that had histories pre-determined by Arneson that you had to research?

I doubt it; we were a special case, being very well-established characters from another campaign, and we arrived with a heap of what could be described as 'Saturday Night Specials'. We were also playing with Dave in sort of a gap in his gaming career, where the original Blackmoor campaign was on long-term hold and about all he was doing was the occasional game for friends. I would have expected that as people in those games, as in the original campaign, would have  had to research an item or consult a sage about it in order to more effectively use the item. Such is the oral history, as related to my over the years by some of those players.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on December 28, 2016, 09:49:45 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;937578
Probably. I've had the same situations; the all time over-the-top one was when  guy called me at AGI, wanting to know where his order was, and telling me that unless he got his Tekumel stuff right away, he was going to kill himself. I got the details of his order, and it transpired that he'd mailed it the day before from his home on the East Coast; we hadn't gotten it yet. I told him we'd pack up a duplicate order and send it that day, but also that we did say in all our publications that the customer should allow two weeks for shipping and handling - this was in 1981, remember. Shipped the order, and called his local police and explained the situation and suggested that they do a welfare check on him.

And people wonder why I don't want to be on the retail / commercial / publishing end of gaming... :rolleyes:

So, I've got this one guy.  Let's say he has an uncomfortable relationship with the truth and is probably fetal alcohol syndrome.  Tried to tell a real veteran that he was special forces, couldn't name a regiment had no idea of what ranks are in the military.  Came in once, while customers were in the store, and told me his soon to be ex-wife was charging him with sexual assault and he would probably be going to jail because he has three prior convictions*.  Anyhow, this one time a couple cops come in because said soon to be ex-wife had called because he'd stormed out and she thought he was going to kill himself.  As it happens he came to the store.  One of the cops tried to imply I was selling him drugs, "unless you're running another business under the table here that undermines his medications"  I wanted to rip the cop a new one but since they were there trying to prevent a suicide by taking a guy to the mental health ward, I bit my tongue.  Corner I'm on, I get a few cops in now and then.  :D

*I'm pretty sure it's true (but probably just groping not that that's good but he's an idiot not a mad dog rapist) but with this guy, well, it's hard to know what he'll say or what he thinks makes him look cool.  He tried to tell me he was a bigwig in a gang once.  I can believe a gang told him that and then let him take the risks.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on December 29, 2016, 06:46:04 AM
Quote from: David Johansen;937613
So, I've got this one guy.  Let's say he has an uncomfortable relationship with the truth ...

Using something like Meetup (https://www.meetup.com/) gatherings in your store could encourage people to shop or become the wrong type of hangout.

I never have gotten a good feel for what are popular public hangouts in Tekumel.
With everyone supposedly being so "clannish", seems like it would only be Public Events that would get people out of their clanhouses to mingle with others.
Besides strictly business dealings that is.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 29, 2016, 03:17:57 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;937646
Using something like Meetup (https://www.meetup.com/) gatherings in your store could encourage people to shop or become the wrong type of hangout.

I never have gotten a good feel for what are popular public hangouts in Tekumel.
With everyone supposedly being so "clannish", seems like it would only be Public Events that would get people out of their clanhouses to mingle with others.
Besides strictly business dealings that is.
=

Alcohol, sex, drugs, entertainment and religion have helped the mingling across history and I can bet it would be true for Tekumel as well;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 29, 2016, 05:37:41 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;937613
So, I've got this one guy.  Let's say he has an uncomfortable relationship with the truth and is probably fetal alcohol syndrome.  Tried to tell a real veteran that he was special forces, couldn't name a regiment had no idea of what ranks are in the military.  Came in once, while customers were in the store, and told me his soon to be ex-wife was charging him with sexual assault and he would probably be going to jail because he has three prior convictions*.  Anyhow, this one time a couple cops come in because said soon to be ex-wife had called because he'd stormed out and she thought he was going to kill himself.  As it happens he came to the store.  One of the cops tried to imply I was selling him drugs, "unless you're running another business under the table here that undermines his medications"  I wanted to rip the cop a new one but since they were there trying to prevent a suicide by taking a guy to the mental health ward, I bit my tongue.  Corner I'm on, I get a few cops in now and then.  :D

*I'm pretty sure it's true (but probably just groping not that that's good but he's an idiot not a mad dog rapist) but with this guy, well, it's hard to know what he'll say or what he thinks makes him look cool.  He tried to tell me he was a bigwig in a gang once.  I can believe a gang told him that and then let him take the risks.

Oh, my. :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 29, 2016, 05:47:35 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;937646
Using something like Meetup (https://www.meetup.com/) gatherings in your store could encourage people to shop or become the wrong type of hangout.

I never have gotten a good feel for what are popular public hangouts in Tekumel.
With everyone supposedly being so "clannish", seems like it would only be Public Events that would get people out of their clanhouses to mingle with others.
Besides strictly business dealings that is.
=

Well, there are a lot of opportunities for meeting people. Getting invites to social affairs is one, another is being told to show up at official functions at the temple or somebody's palace. Clans throw big social events where they let just about anybody in, with only the most socially unacceptable people - like slavers - excluded. We used to have to show up at a lot of these clambakes, where having connections to the host was a big thing for both ourselves or the hosts - "why, yes, (insert name here) is a good friend of mine, and was able to come to the party! Isn't it wonderful that they're here! Etc."

So, 'hangouts' can include your temple, your clan house, your local government palaces, your legion headquarters, some of the merchant's shops you frequent - armorers are particularly noted for this, as are antiquities dealers and food and wine merchants - as having your august presence in the shop helps with sales: "Yes, of course noble one, I hope you will be kind enough to take some refreshment while the Highborn concludes her business with our house..." The person waiting gains status for being so polite, the previous customer gains status for being equally polite, and the merchant gain status for having such impressive clients...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 29, 2016, 05:48:10 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;937740
Alcohol, sex, drugs, entertainment and religion have helped the mingling across history and I can bet it would be true for Tekumel as well;).

Yep. See my previous reply.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 29, 2016, 09:38:42 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;937777
Yep. See my previous reply.

I saw it, and laughed at the status game.

Hope you didn't mind me butting in with my opinion, although the question was aimed at you, Uncle? Sometimes I do that when I think I have an answer that might be useful - or at least useful as an alternative option, if I turn out to be wrong about the setting!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on December 30, 2016, 05:23:19 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;937823
I saw it, and laughed at the status game.

Hope you didn't mind me butting in with my opinion, although the question was aimed at you, Uncle? Sometimes I do that when I think I have an answer that might be useful - or at least useful as an alternative option, if I turn out to be wrong about the setting!

No, no - didn't mind at all! You are quite on the money - the people we ran into in Phil's game sessions were, for us, real people doing real things, and ew had the opportunity to tag along for the ride. And on occasion, we'd do something for them, and they'd do something for us.

And if I may express an opinion here, while the title of the thread may be 'Questioning Chirine ba Kal', I don't think of it as some sort of Personal Appearance thing where my Awesome Magnificence is sitting up on stage being adored by the hoi polloi and I deign to answer their pathetic inquiries. (I leave that for other people, to be honest.) I look at this thread as being a bunch of friends sitting in the corner booth down the pub and having a good time batting ideas back and forth. I am enjoying this, as I enjoy talking about the antics we got up to, back in the day... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on December 31, 2016, 06:29:53 PM
I've been gleaning this thread for things I need to put into my chapter on Phil and Tekumel, and I noticed a place where I was unclear.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;856912

Now, arguments over the appropriateness of humor in wargames goes back for decades at least; for every army commanded by "Sir Hugh Jarce," you had somebody else kyoodling about how that was "silly" and "frivolous."  To which the usual response was, "Yes it is," and then beat the living hell out of the guy who objected to the funny name.


I meant "beat the living hell out of him" in the game, not actually commit physical mayhem.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on December 31, 2016, 07:36:30 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;937776
Well, there are a lot of opportunities for meeting people. Getting invites to social affairs is one, another is being told to show up at official functions at the temple or somebody's palace. Clans throw big social events where they let just about anybody in, with only the most socially unacceptable people - like slavers - excluded. We used to have to show up at a lot of these clambakes, where having connections to the host was a big thing for both ourselves or the hosts - "why, yes, (insert name here) is a good friend of mine, and was able to come to the party! Isn't it wonderful that they're here! Etc."

So, 'hangouts' can include your temple, your clan house, your local government palaces, your legion headquarters, some of the merchant's shops you frequent - armorers are particularly noted for this, as are antiquities dealers and food and wine merchants - as having your august presence in the shop helps with sales: "Yes, of course noble one, I hope you will be kind enough to take some refreshment while the Highborn concludes her business with our house..." The person waiting gains status for being so polite, the previous customer gains status for being equally polite, and the merchant gain status for having such impressive clients...


I always thought that there would be mileage in a modified version of "En Garde" (the early play-by-post/semi-RPG system) for Tekumel - regiments become legions, posts are similar but could be for Temples, Bureaucracy etc, characters can duel in arenas, conspicuous consumption etc would be similar. Flashing Blades might be another one that could work.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on December 31, 2016, 07:58:37 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;937935
No, no - didn't mind at all! You are quite on the money - the people we ran into in Phil's game sessions were, for us, real people doing real things, and ew had the opportunity to tag along for the ride. And on occasion, we'd do something for them, and they'd do something for us.

And if I may express an opinion here, while the title of the thread may be 'Questioning Chirine ba Kal', I don't think of it as some sort of Personal Appearance thing where my Awesome Magnificence is sitting up on stage being adored by the hoi polloi and I deign to answer their pathetic inquiries. (I leave that for other people, to be honest.) I look at this thread as being a bunch of friends sitting in the corner booth down the pub and having a good time batting ideas back and forth. I am enjoying this, as I enjoy talking about the antics we got up to, back in the day... :)

OK, Uncle. I figured that's your likely answer, but you know what they say, better safe than sorry...:)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;938066
I've been gleaning this thread for things I need to put into my chapter on Phil and Tekumel, and I noticed a place where I was unclear.

I meant "beat the living hell out of him" in the game, not actually commit physical mayhem.

Suspected that much, but it's always best to be clear;).

Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));938067
I always thought that there would be mileage in a modified version of "En Garde" (the early play-by-post/semi-RPG system) for Tekumel - regiments become legions, posts are similar but could be for Temples, Bureaucracy etc, characters can duel in arenas, conspicuous consumption etc would be similar. Flashing Blades might be another one that could work.

You're not the only one. I have long considered swaschbuckling, swords and sorcery and sword and planet to be the same genre in three different settings, but for some reason people get all riled up when I suggest it:D!
I would consider Honor+Intrigue as well, but that's about all I can add;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 01, 2017, 12:28:13 AM
HappyNewYear!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 01, 2017, 09:08:34 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;938066
I've been gleaning this thread for things I need to put into my chapter on Phil and Tekumel, and I noticed a place where I was unclear.

I meant "beat the living hell out of him" in the game, not actually commit physical mayhem.

Dig away, my General!

Understood; we had a long discussion about this very same subject last night, with a bunch of us old farts tying to figure out when a bunch of friends dropping by and having a lot of laughs became Serious Business. Interestingly, the young folks present - who are the sons and daughters of the old farts - told us that they'd be a lot more interested in our style of gaming then what they normally see in their own gaming.

So, if you want my opinion, there may be hope yet... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 01, 2017, 09:10:12 AM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));938067
I always thought that there would be mileage in a modified version of "En Garde" (the early play-by-post/semi-RPG system) for Tekumel - regiments become legions, posts are similar but could be for Temples, Bureaucracy etc, characters can duel in arenas, conspicuous consumption etc would be similar. Flashing Blades might be another one that could work.

Oh, yes, very much so! The Tekumel we played in was very much of this genre, and not the Serious Business it seems to have become in the late 1990s.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 01, 2017, 09:12:23 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;938068
OK, Uncle. I figured that's your likely answer, but you know what they say, better safe than sorry...:)


Suspected that much, but it's always best to be clear;).


You're not the only one. I have long considered swaschbuckling, swords and sorcery and sword and planet to be the same genre in three different settings, but for some reason people get all riled up when I suggest it:D!
I would consider Honor+Intrigue as well, but that's about all I can add;).

No problem!

Yep; 'swashbuckling' and the mindset that goes with it seem to have become unfashionable, what with gaming being Serious Business for Serious People.

"Three Musketeers" would not go over well with these people, sad to say...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 01, 2017, 09:15:02 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;938081
HappyNewYear!!!

Indeed! :)

It's starting out quite well; with the Missus getting her biopsy results back - negative, we are delighted to say, and a lot of worry and stress taken away from us. Had a great time last night, with lots of old friends and their kids, and sparkling wit in the brilliant conversation. We enjoyed ourselves, we did. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 01, 2017, 12:18:17 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;938108
Indeed! :)

It's starting out quite well; with the Missus getting her biopsy results back - negative, we are delighted to say, and a lot of worry and stress taken away from us. Had a great time last night, with lots of old friends and their kids, and sparkling wit in the brilliant conversation. We enjoyed ourselves, we did. :)


Ahhh Uncle, We are most pleased to hear it!!! All the best to you and yours!!! And to all of those here as well!!!

H:0)

PS Last nights wishes were done in the same "spirits"(though quickly)...!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 01, 2017, 05:11:34 PM
Happy New Year!
Quote from: chirine ba kal;938107
No problem!

Yep; 'swashbuckling' and the mindset that goes with it seem to have become unfashionable, what with gaming being Serious Business for Serious People.

"Three Musketeers" would not go over well with these people, sad to say...
Unfashionable? I dare say not, it has just been incorporated into all genres for all I can tell. And yes, it's even where it doesn't fit at all.
The keyword they use today is "cinematic"...:)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;938108
Indeed! :)

It's starting out quite well; with the Missus getting her biopsy results back - negative, we are delighted to say, and a lot of worry and stress taken away from us. Had a great time last night, with lots of old friends and their kids, and sparkling wit in the brilliant conversation. We enjoyed ourselves, we did. :)

Glad to hear that, Uncle, especially the health results!
Also, it's far more noble to have fun than to worry about ignobly stupid people, I keep saying;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 02, 2017, 09:54:11 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;938127
Ahhh Uncle, We are most pleased to hear it!!! All the best to you and yours!!! And to all of those here as well!!!

H:0)

PS Last nights wishes were done in the same "spirits"(though quickly)...!!!


Thank you, and the same best wishes for you, as well!

Yes, we're pretty happy, and there's a lot of stress and worry gone. Regular check-ups needed, of course, but it's a lot quieter around here... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 02, 2017, 09:57:40 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;938150
Happy New Year!

Unfashionable? I dare say not, it has just been incorporated into all genres for all I can tell. And yes, it's even where it doesn't fit at all.
The keyword they use today is "cinematic"...:)

Glad to hear that, Uncle, especially the health results!
Also, it's far more noble to have fun than to worry about ignobly stupid people, I keep saying;)!

That's interesting; I've always played in a certain 'cinematic' style, and what we called 'swashbuckling' play was a part of that.

I'm still learning the modern usages of the words, of course; what I think they mean seems, on occasion, not to have the same meaning for modern gamers.

Thank you - we're pretty relieved! And yes, avoiding stupid people - which I've been doing for the past year - has made our lives here much, much better. And nice and quiet, too... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 02, 2017, 01:40:54 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;938236
That's interesting; I've always played in a certain 'cinematic' style, and what we called 'swashbuckling' play was a part of that.

I'm still learning the modern usages of the words, of course; what I think they mean seems, on occasion, not to have the same meaning for modern gamers.

Thank you - we're pretty relieved! And yes, avoiding stupid people - which I've been doing for the past year - has made our lives here much, much better. And nice and quiet, too... :)
Yeah, Uncle, but the difference is, today there's way too many people that refuse trying those same things unless they're sure the characters wouldn't die from it...:D

Anyway, glad you're having some calm times. Now for a question both you and Gronan might have some fun answering...

Would you please look over at those books here? Then tell us whether you know the authors and whether it looks like a serious research?
http://www.rpgnow.com/browse/pub/7178/Kent-David-Kelly
If answering in an open forum would be too much of a bother, just PM me, please;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 02, 2017, 02:13:11 PM
Shrug.  Never heard of the guy.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 02, 2017, 02:37:29 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;938256
Yeah, Uncle, but the difference is, today there's way too many people that refuse trying those same things unless they're sure the characters wouldn't die from it...:D

Which I find odd; we were always very aware of the fact that we were risking our PCs lives all the time, and so tended to do 'risk evaluations' all the time as well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 02, 2017, 02:43:02 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;938256
Anyway, glad you're having some calm times. Now for a question both you and Gronan might have some fun answering...

Would you please look over at those books here? Then tell us whether you know the authors and whether it looks like a serious research?
http://www.rpgnow.com/browse/pub/7178/Kent-David-Kelly
If answering in an open forum would be too much of a bother, just PM me, please;)!

Same as Gronan; never heard of the guy. I have heard of the two books; the local Arnesonians are apparently peeved that they were not intereviewed by this guy for his books. I read the liner notes, and it looks like yet another guy who has gone to Lake Geneva for his information; as well as doing some pretty good trawling through the published sources for information. No idea if it's the usual third-hand' "I talked to somebody who talked to Gary" kind of thing.

Personally, I prefer my information from primary and/or first hand sources. (Which is why I have a basement full of first-hand crap.) So I can't speak to the reliability of these two books, sorry.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 02, 2017, 03:01:42 PM
Well,I downloaded the first for free, will tell you more when I get to reading it;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on January 02, 2017, 06:20:14 PM
Happy New year to one and all, on this, the seemingly most vibrant forum there is for discussion of matters Tekumel.

Best wishes for our host Chirine and for your family. I hope this will be the year of "To Serve the Petal Throne," and so much more beside. Keep the Flame burning!

And to Gronan, I hope this will be the year of your "fucking book" as you put it. Seriously, it sounds like it is coming together and I'm looking forward to it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 02, 2017, 06:22:41 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;938272
Well,I downloaded the first for free, will tell you more when I get to reading it;).

Very cool! This is a manifestation of the cottage industry that has grown up over the past few years of movies and books that claim to be able to reveal the secrets of the early days of gaming. Me, I'd much rather read Gronan, Rob Kuntz, or people like that who were there at the table and see what they have to say.

(And anyone who uses 'Lance' and 'Earnest' doesn't really have a good feel for the people he's writing about, but that's my personal opinion.)

Not that I'm going there with my little effort; my books is simply about a bunch of friends sitting around a table having fun, told from the point of view of the people that they played. I've been taken to task for this by a number of people, who seem to want a) a new RPG, b) a "significant historical document" along the lines of Jon's book, c) a scandal-filled book detailing who was diddling who when, d) a Tekumel version of the 'Harry Potter' series, e) a book glorifying people who didn't play with us in the group but who are Very Important People In Gaming, f) A Serious Literary Work, g) a blow-by-blow account of how Phil rolled dice, h) anything but what I'm actually doing. I've been advising these folks to get another writer, as I'm not writing any of these other books; somebody else can interview me and do it themselves, if they want it that badly.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 02, 2017, 06:49:30 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;938294
Happy New year to one and all, on this, the seemingly most vibrant forum there is for discussion of matters Tekumel.

Best wishes for our host Chirine and for your family. I hope this will be the year of "To Serve the Petal Throne," and so much more beside. Keep the Flame burning!

And to Gronan, I hope this will be the year of your "fucking book" as you put it. Seriously, it sounds like it is coming together and I'm looking forward to it.

Thank you! I think that the reason why we're doing so well is that we all have different viewpoints and experiences, and we're willing to share them with people in a 'mature, adult' manner. I could be wrong, of course.

I am hoping to finish the book this year; while I am functional on this particular machine (a MacBook laptop), the Missus has found a way to get the big G5 'billboard' back up and running - it's just easier for me to use.

Yep; same here. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 02, 2017, 11:51:34 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;938295
h) anything but what I'm actually doing.

I know the feeling.  It kind of makes me feel bad when people want tales of "a typical adventure," because all I remember are the pratfalls.  To paraphrase Tolstoy, "Successful adventures are all alike, but unsuccessful adventures are each disastrous in their own way."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on January 03, 2017, 12:06:16 AM
You know?  I've got a hard drive full of half finished stories and games and programs (I dabble).  It's really hard to stay motivated.

I always feel like an imitator or a poser.

At least you guys are the real deal.  The other people who've written histories might not be posers but they aren't speaking from first hand experience.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 03, 2017, 05:22:28 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;938350
I know the feeling.  It kind of makes me feel bad when people want tales of "a typical adventure," because all I remember are the pratfalls.  To paraphrase Tolstoy, "Successful adventures are all alike, but unsuccessful adventures are each disastrous in their own way."

Agreed. We had over a dozen years with Phil, every Thursday night, no matter what; that's 12x52x4.5 (hours, average) for about 2,800 hours of game time - which does not include the time we spent simply sitting in his living room and talking, or all the time and effort we put in as his publishers. Like you, I rememebr the funny moments most of all - if I hadn't been taking notes the whole time, I doubt I'd be able to remember all the story arcs that took us years to play out. Phil got seven novels out it all; I'm merely getting one (massive, I admit, but we had a lot of adventures.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 03, 2017, 05:36:19 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;938352
You know?  I've got a hard drive full of half finished stories and games and programs (I dabble).  It's really hard to stay motivated.

I always feel like an imitator or a poser.

At least you guys are the real deal.  The other people who've written histories might not be posers but they aren't speaking from first hand experience.


Mmmm. Interesting point. My 'difficulty' with a lot of the people writing histories of the early days of gaming tend to reply on the same interviews with the same people, and it's gotten to the point where I can tell who the writer has talked to from the way the historical record is discussed and presented. Jon's book may be 'dry', but he's working from primary documentary sources - which, I will admit, favor the Lake Geneva viewpoint, as they tended to generate a lot more paper then the Twin Cities crowd did - and I find that very helpful. I knew quite a few of the people he mentions, so having the additional data is very nice for me. And please don't feel like you're an imitator or a poser; you have your own perspectives, and you should articulate them

As for being 'the real deal', thank you for the kind words. I've tried to be upfront about my limitations as an observer of the game hobby / industry as it was back then, and equally as upfront about my beliefs and opinions - which will, obviously, have an effect on my abilities as a reporter of those events. My book isn't going to be a lot of things, and will probably disappoint quite a few people when they read it. As I mentioned, all I'm doing is telling our stories as we saw them through the eyes of our PCs, and trying to make them entertaining. We got to know these people pretty well over the decade we adventured in their world, and I think we can share some insights about that world. And perhaps how the world's creator viewed them and it.

Which is, I think, what this thread is all about. I will confess to being genuinely astonished that we're up over 100,000 views; if you'd told me that, back over a year ago when we started, I would have snorted in disbelief at the very idea. It's like with my little blog; I am still astonished that people do follow it and enjoy it. I am, when everything is said and done, a guy who pushes little toy people around on a table - as somebody once said, "We made stuff up and we had fun." If we can still share that, then I feel like yes - this is the real deal... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on January 05, 2017, 02:37:26 PM
Chirine,

I recently came across this website: http://thrilling-tales.webomator.com/ (http://thrilling-tales.webomator.com/) which allows you create your own pulp magazine covers and download them.
After recently re-reading the part in MoG when Harsan is in the Temple of Sarku, which I believe was based upon your sojourn to the same temple, here's what I came up with this.
I like the way it looks, not sure how I can use it for my game though. Perhaps as part of my new player handout...
Maybe you could use it make a cover for TStPT?:p
 
[ATTACH=CONFIG]627[/ATTACH]

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 05, 2017, 03:35:18 PM
Nice.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 05, 2017, 03:59:13 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;938765
Chirine,

I recently came across this website: http://thrilling-tales.webomator.com/ (http://thrilling-tales.webomator.com/) which allows you create your own pulp magazine covers and download them.
After recently re-reading the part in MoG when Harsan is in the Temple of Sarku, which I believe was based upon your sojourn to the same temple, here's what I came up with this.
I like the way it looks, not sure how I can use it for my game though. Perhaps as part of my new player handout...
Maybe you could use it make a cover for TStPT?:p
 
[ATTACH=CONFIG]627[/ATTACH]

Shemek[/QUOTE

Really cool!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 05, 2017, 05:16:33 PM
What fun! Lovely website - I'll give it a try and see what I can come up with. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 05, 2017, 07:07:12 PM
I was just poking around a bit on the website. It seems that you can get your creation on a t-shirt!!! Not sure how much it would be though.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 06, 2017, 02:34:04 AM
Wandering through earlier parts of this thread and discussions of mid 20th century SF "hi tech...."

So, when the Burthoi fire up their house-size Babbage engine hyperdrive calculating engines with hair-fine rollers spinning in air bearings...

... you can tell when the calculations are done from the high pitched "Fweeeeeeee....." noise the air bearings make as all the rollers align.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 06, 2017, 05:18:35 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;938951
Wandering through earlier parts of this thread and discussions of mid 20th century SF "hi tech...."

So, when the Burthoi fire up their house-size Babbage engine hyperdrive calculating engines with hair-fine rollers spinning in air bearings...

... you can tell when the calculations are done from the high pitched "Fweeeeeeee....." noise the air bearings make as all the rollers align.

Ah, sigh; those were the days, back when we would whip up entire civilizations to give us and excuse to use cool miniatures - what were we using for the Burthoi? I know that they were McEwan 'Starguard/Orilla" figures, but for the life of me I can't remember that he called them, the little teddy bears. They weren't intended for Fuzzies - Archive did those - and I think they are in "Orilla". This would have been back about the time of the "Little Fuzzy" scandal, which is why it sticks in my memory.

Which also brings to mind the 'future technology' of H. Beam Piper; some of it is still very advanced, and some of it is quite dated. Still good stories, though... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on January 06, 2017, 06:44:40 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;939175
Ah, sigh; those were the days, back when ...

I am constantly surprised by my players.
While I think at least one has, and is playing in multiple games, the things they do bring to question if they have ever played before.
Maybe they have just never played in a sandbox style game where what they do causes impact in the world.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 06, 2017, 08:01:55 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;939188
I am constantly surprised by my players.
While I think at least one has, and is playing in multiple games, the things they do bring to question if they have ever played before.
Maybe they have just never played in a sandbox style game where what they do causes impact in the world.
=

Um, yes, I'd agree with this. I saw it in my own campaigns over the years, where players would bring a 'D&D mentality' to the table - they would have trouble understanding that this was a long-term meta-campaign, and that their particular game group's session were one among several 'adventures' all happening at once. 'Other games' just didn't seem to have any reality for them, at least not until they and one of the other groups happened to be in the same point in space-time and we'd hold a large joint game session. Quite a few had the same outlook for the NPCs as well, to be fair.

In Phil's Tekumel, at least in the time when Gronan and I had with him, actions on our part had a very direct and immediate effect on the world that we moved around in and interacted with. Phil was very much an 'open sandbox' GM - and he made it very clear, on multiple occasions, that we were part of his 'meta-campaign' and thus kind of small fish in a very large pond. We were successful as players and as PCs because we understood how the world worked, and played accordingly.

I still run things the same way, myself; the meta-campaign continues, waiting for the next party of players to arrive...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 07, 2017, 12:00:15 PM
I've seen the same attitude. It crashes badly with my Refereeingredients style, so I warn the players about this;).
If the warningremains unheeded, I'm more than ready to watch the character sheets piling up in my feet:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 07, 2017, 06:11:53 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;939284
I've seen the same attitude. It crashes badly with my Refereeingredients style, so I warn the players about this;).
If the warningremains unheeded, I'm more than ready to watch the character sheets piling up in my feet:D!

Agreed. I've been doing a lot of 'market research' at the FLGS - observing what's being played of a Saturday afternoon - and what seems to be the big seller (besides CCGs, of course) are what look to me like 'pre-programmed' adventures; what we used to call 'modules', from my point of view. Within those adventuers, there's not a lot of interaction with the world-setting; lots of targets on the firing range to shoot up for the XP, but not what I'm used to for what I'd call 'depth' in the NPCs. Lots of people having a good time, from the looks of it, just not a gaming style that I like to work within.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 07, 2017, 08:10:11 PM
Try not to be unhappy, my General, but Star Wars miniature spaceships are now going for 75% off at the FLGS. The game is now pretty much out of the store, as I gather that it had a first pulse of sales and then very low turnover. Still on the shelves at FFG, as you might expect.

X-wings we'd have given our left arm for, going for $3.75. I was very sorely tempted, just for old times' sake. Bought the new TRE quinquereme instead. The Forge of Ice 'Sleazy Merchant And Sleepy Guards' set is in, and shipping. It's going to be a good month, I think... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 08, 2017, 01:08:07 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;939336
Try not to be unhappy, my General, but Star Wars miniature spaceships are now going for 75% off at the FLGS. The game is now pretty much out of the store, as I gather that it had a first pulse of sales and then very low turnover. Still on the shelves at FFG, as you might expect.

X-wings we'd have given our left arm for, going for $3.75. I was very sorely tempted, just for old times' sake. Bought the new TRE quinquereme instead. The Forge of Ice 'Sleazy Merchant And Sleepy Guards' set is in, and shipping. It's going to be a good month, I think... :)

Hmmmm.  The basic game minus the later stuff is still excellent.

....am I still daft enough to start amassing huge amounts of beadboard packing shapes?....
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 08, 2017, 01:26:41 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;895284
I keep hanging in there. The layout will arise, some day. I have to do something with all that stuff... :)

Agreed about Phil's troubles with his publishers. He was voted "Most Difficult Author in the Game Industry" by GAMA; Mike Stackpole ran the 'awards' ceremony, and I got to get up and give the acceptance speech. I still have the 'Ralphie' in the basement; they'd managed to get a heap of the Ralph Cramden figures from the TSR "Honeymooners" board game, and Stackpole used those as the 'trophy'.

Phil's basic problem with 'external' publishers was that they ran their businesses as businesses, and were in business to make money. Phil had lived and worked in academia for almost all his working life, and tended to think of 'publishers' as being like the in-house press shop that most universities had. Phil had a very 'academic' approach to publishing, which - I suspect - is why most of his Tekumel publications have such a 'textbook feel' to them. He kind of got away from that with his novels, as he wrote with a very 1940s - 1950s voice in them; they do read like a lot of the texts that are from that same period in F/SF history. Phil had kind of the same issues with us 'internal' publishers; he had his ideas, and we tended to treat the thing as being a business that had to pay for itself. It never did, of course; it took about thirty years to sell off all 250 copies of "Deeds of the Ever Glorious".

Personally, I think Phil would have been delighted to have the modern version of the Internet to work with; he could have done anything he'd wanted to, put it up on his own website, and sold the PDFs or files with little or no overhead. Back in our day, the economic and production hurdles to get anything published - let alone marketed! - were why there never were any really economically viable Tekumel products. Aside from EPT itself, of course, but that was - by Brian Blume's own statement - the right product in the right place at the right time. The only other product that sold well (for the game industry, of course) was "Ebon Bindings", with about 1,000 of the four editions being sold over the decades.

Miniatures were a very different story, but that was because of the very intense marketing effort and the very low barriers to having product. Back in the day, Phil had a very hard time getting his head around the notion that the lead was what was supporting his books, not the other way around.

These days, it's a very different story; I've watched all too many Kickstarters founder over the high costs of miniatures production. It's a very different market, and a very different hobby these days.


I realized I have thoughts on this but am too pooped right now, but don't want to forget.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 08, 2017, 01:32:55 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;896805
Ah, keeping the Legion fed.  What a joy.  On the Sakbe roads have your marching orders ready and sign for everything in the Legion's name.  And that's a good reason to start the day's march early, first legion to the campsite gets the dry places to sleep and the best grub.

Milumanaya?  Gods.  A nightmare.


More later...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 08, 2017, 10:15:26 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;939378
Hmmmm.  The basic game minus the later stuff is still excellent.

....am I still daft enough to start amassing huge amounts of beadboard packing shapes?....

Interesting thought, there, and in line with the question we were asked at Gary Con two years ago about running The Great Mos Eisley Spaceport Raid once again. Certainly, we could amass the stuff to do it with, and book the space at a game convention; it would not be all that hard to run.

However, I think it would be a flop. First, RPG players who subscribe to the 'I hate miniatures!' school would flee from the sight; very few RPG players would understand the Braunstein nature of the beast and not get into the spirit of the thing; and I suspect that what's left of the miniatures hobby would freak out over the setting. So, I think we'd get very few players, which does cripple the game pretty badly. (Look how hard it is for Maj. Wesely to get players.)

If you did want to do this, I'd suggest doing it at FFG in their Event Center as a Big Special Event, tied in with their game. That way, you'd get the players needed to make the game a success, and who are used to the idea of little (plastic, in this case) people on the table. You'd largely avoid the fanatic OSR types and the edition warriors, too; different segment of the market.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 08, 2017, 10:18:53 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;939379
I realized I have thoughts on this but am too pooped right now, but don't want to forget.

Understood. I'll look forward to your thoughts on this; personally, looking back on our time in the hot seat, I think we were doomed from the beginning. I've come to the opinion that Phil came along about twenty years too soon; he would have done much better in this modern world of desktop publishing and PDFs.

On the other hand, looking over the contents of the basement, we did manage to have a little fun along the way... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 08, 2017, 10:33:47 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;939380
More later...

"No cucumbers, Chirine? Not even for ready money?"

"No, my General, not even for ready money." (with apologies to Oscar Wilde)

It's been entertaining of late, my General, doing the research on to to feed a legion. (Or any other large body of troops, for that matter.) While I'll be briefly touching on this as I do more of our military adventures in Three, and Five, the real exposition will happen in Six as it gets to be a plot point.

For RPGs, it also provides an endless source of adventures for players, trying to get the convoy through or trying to save it from the opposition. Heck, even cities needed regular supply runs to stay alive. (Although, once again, we get to that blurry grey area between 'real RPGs' and skirmish miniatures - back where that Arneson fellow lived.)

Heroism abounds; anybody remember Camerone?
Title: Preview of Coming Attractions
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 08, 2017, 10:39:40 AM
Turner Classic Movies ran "Wind and the Lion" yesterday, much to my delight, and (so I am told) will be running the massive Harrison-Taylor-Burton "Cleopatra" on Friday. Pack a lunch; it's an epic of the Cecil B. DeMille school of film-making.

Picked up the new 1/900th quinquereme yesterday, in honor of Actium; it reminded me of Anthony's big honker of a flagship. Now, all I need is a golden barge; I have the decorative young ladies-in-waiting to fling flowers at the astonished citizens. Got some turning circles, too; "Out oars!" :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 08, 2017, 03:34:21 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;939456
Look how hard it is for Maj. Wesely to get players.
It's hard for Maj. Wesely to get players?

Quote
If you did want to do this, I'd suggest doing it at FFG in their Event Center as a Big Special Event, tied in with their game. That way, you'd get the players needed to make the game a success, and who are used to the idea of little (plastic, in this case) people on the table. You'd largely avoid the fanatic OSR types and the edition warriors, too; different segment of the market.
This, Uncle, is spot-on, that's all I can say:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;939458
Understood. I'll look forward to your thoughts on this; personally, looking back on our time in the hot seat, I think we were doomed from the beginning. I've come to the opinion that Phil came along about twenty years too soon; he would have done much better in this modern world of desktop publishing and PDFs.
There's some truth to it, but then, his contribution might have had a harder time being noticed, given the amount of competition;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 08, 2017, 03:56:35 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;939504
It's hard for Maj. Wesely to get players?

This, Uncle, is spot-on, that's all I can say:).

There's some truth to it, but then, his contribution might have had a harder time being noticed, given the amount of competition;).

From what I've been seeing, yes; he doesn't do a lot of blatant self-promotion, being the kind of modest person he is, so it does take some effort to drum up enough players for a game. Which is too bad, if you ask me; more RPG types could use the experience with it.

Yep; it's that I've been seeing.

Agreed! I do think he'd be kind of lost in the rush, but he - as well as all of us in the hot seat over the years - would have been a lot happier and I daresay a lot more productive. A lot of gamers these days have a hard time grappling with the difficulty back in the day of making any products available due to the  then-existing barriers to production and marketing. Which is what killed AGI, to a great extent. Thin product line with too high an overhead, and very minimal marketing efforts. Looking back on it, and looking at the sales numbers, we 'boat people' were a lot more cost-effective and productive with our little efforts. Sigh. Too bad, really; there were some really good products, there, and some of them found homes after the collapse and are still with us today.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 08, 2017, 04:04:36 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;939512
From what I've been seeing, yes; he doesn't do a lot of blatant self-promotion, being the kind of modest person he is, so it does take some effort to drum up enough players for a game. Which is too bad, if you ask me; more RPG types could use the experience with it.
I understand modesty might be an issue:). No, honestly, I do...
But the idea that any Referee, not to mention one who has been running games for Gygax and Arneson, would have trouble finding players still almost boggles the mind. How many players are looking for anyone willing to run a game;)?

Quote
Agreed! I do think he'd be kind of lost in the rush, but he - as well as all of us in the hot seat over the years - would have been a lot happier and I daresay a lot more productive. A lot of gamers these days have a hard time grappling with the difficulty back in the day of making any products available due to the  then-existing barriers to production and marketing. Which is what killed AGI, to a great extent. Thin product line with too high an overhead, and very minimal marketing efforts. Looking back on it, and looking at the sales numbers, we 'boat people' were a lot more cost-effective and productive with our little efforts. Sigh. Too bad, really; there were some really good products, there, and some of them found homes after the collapse and are still with us today.
Oh yes, productivity would be a huge advantage. With the kind of effort you boat people have been putting in, had you focused all of those into editing things Phil had written and layout, you could have had the second biggest shop at Drivethru/RPGNow after WotC:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 08, 2017, 04:16:58 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;939514
I understand modesty might be an issue:). No, honestly, I do...
But the idea that any Referee, not to mention one who has been running games for Gygax and Arneson, would have trouble finding players still almost boggles the mind. How many players are looking for anyone willing to run a game;)?

Oh yes, productivity would be a huge advantage. With the kind of effort you boat people have been putting in, had you focused all of those into editing things Phil had written and layout, you could have had the second biggest shop at Drivethru/RPGNow after WotC:D!

Understood, but he's running a game that nobody's really heard of or that has a tie-in with one of the big-name brand games that people see on the shelves. One has to be a 'name brand' these days, with a commercial tie-in to something that's on the shelf, in order to get people to stop by and take a look. No product, no sales, no interest. I've seen some really excellent miniatures lines fade away into oblivion because of this; great figures that are good for all sorts of games, but the Official, Authorized rules sets that they were created for got very little marketing support or exposure and so the lines dropped out of sight.

Dave's Braunsteins are heaps of fun to play, but they don't have the 'name recognition' that attracts casual players.

Agreed; if we'd had all of the stuff that dribbled out over the past thirty years all at once, we'd have had it made. See also 'no product... etc.'
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 08, 2017, 05:16:35 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;939516
Understood, but he's running a game that nobody's really heard of or that has a tie-in with one of the big-name brand games that people see on the shelves. One has to be a 'name brand' these days, with a commercial tie-in to something that's on the shelf, in order to get people to stop by and take a look. No product, no sales, no interest. I've seen some really excellent miniatures lines fade away into oblivion because of this; great figures that are good for all sorts of games, but the Official, Authorized rules sets that they were created for got very little marketing support or exposure and so the lines dropped out of sight.

Dave's Braunsteins are heaps of fun to play, but they don't have the 'name recognition' that attracts casual players.
Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson should be good enough for name recognition, in his case. I mean, they did create a game a few RPG players might have heard about, so he may easily use that as part of his line...:D

Quote
Agreed; if we'd had all of the stuff that dribbled out over the past thirty years all at once, we'd have had it made. See also 'no product... etc.'
Well, it would have been nice, but one's gotta play with the cards one was dealt;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 08, 2017, 06:03:14 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;939519
Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson should be good enough for name recognition, in his case. I mean, they did create a game a few RPG players might have heard about, so he may easily use that as part of his line...:D

Well, it would have been nice, but one's gotta play with the cards one was dealt;)!

Who?

Seriously; neither of them has a lot of name recognition anymore, outside of the specialists. I was in the FLGS closest to my house, when I mentioned the two of them, and the denizens had no idea who had written D&D; all they knew was that the game had been done by WotC, and they didn't know anything about TSR either.

Agreed. What we had was what we had, and what we had to deal with was what we had to deal with.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on January 08, 2017, 06:14:54 PM
How close to what you remember is My Private Jakalla (https://rpgcharacters.wordpress.com/2016/12/30/my-private-jakalla-map-1f/)?

Looks like an easy way to transition into an EPT game to me.
With those maps and the original EPT rule book, anyone should be able to hit the ground running in my opinion.

It may be that the "Kool Kids" don't play "Dungeon Crawls" any more ...
They need a three page character sheet showing how great they are and opportunities to posture not some dangerous crawlspace to risk their character in.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 08, 2017, 07:17:12 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;939529
How close to what you remember is My Private Jakalla (https://rpgcharacters.wordpress.com/2016/12/30/my-private-jakalla-map-1f/)?

Looks like an easy way to transition into an EPT game to me.
With those maps and the original EPT rule book, anyone should be able to hit the ground running in my opinion.

It may be that the "Kool Kids" don't play "Dungeon Crawls" any more ...
They need a three page character sheet showing how great they are and opportunities to posture not some dangerous crawlspace to risk their character in.
=

Yes, I'd agree with that. His maps are more spread out then Phil's, but I think that's because of the different media - back in Ye Olden Dayes, the usual style was to cram as much onto a sheet of graph paper as possible, which is why you get thin walls all over the place. It's a good Underworld map set, and if you took and populated it the way Phil did - as a busy place full of ancient hazards and modern occupants - I think you could have a great game in that same style.

I have no idea what the 'kool kids' want. What I see both online and at the local gaming spots is very different from what we used to do, and from each other as well. What we used to do here in the Twin Cities seems to be both obsolete and unpopular - "too hand-wavy", "too loosey-goosey", as I've been told quite a number of times. Quite a few people have been utterly baffled by the notion of a 'miniatures wargame' that is run that way, and they have been a little freaked out by the sample game on my YouTube channel. It's like the use of the word 'wargame' for what we used to call 'board games', and the accompanying assumptions that we played SPI and Avalon Hill games like we played with Tractics and Chainmail. Gronan's mantra, "Anything Not Specifically Forbidden By The Rules Is Permitted", vs. the assumption that "Anything Not Specifically Permitted By The Rules Is Forbidden". I play the former, even in my historical settings.

'Dungeon crawls' can be fun, and I've run a few myself in the various settings that I support. Ancient Egypt is a good example of what's possible; the setting has some pretty interesting 'monsters' that - in my opinion, anyway - give even experienced RPG players a run for their money. Take two sedja, and call me in the morning...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on January 08, 2017, 08:10:10 PM
I can never quite decide if creativity has always been uncommon and the smaller, grass-roots gaming community in the old days simply drew more creative people or if creativity has been eroded and stigmatized by a world with access to professionally produced media.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 08, 2017, 09:43:02 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;939456
Interesting thought, there, and in line with the question we were asked at Gary Con two years ago about running The Great Mos Eisley Spaceport Raid once again. Certainly, we could amass the stuff to do it with, and book the space at a game convention; it would not be all that hard to run.

However, I think it would be a flop. First, RPG players who subscribe to the 'I hate miniatures!' school would flee from the sight; very few RPG players would understand the Braunstein nature of the beast and not get into the spirit of the thing; and I suspect that what's left of the miniatures hobby would freak out over the setting. So, I think we'd get very few players, which does cripple the game pretty badly. (Look how hard it is for Maj. Wesely to get players.)

If you did want to do this, I'd suggest doing it at FFG in their Event Center as a Big Special Event, tied in with their game. That way, you'd get the players needed to make the game a success, and who are used to the idea of little (plastic, in this case) people on the table. You'd largely avoid the fanatic OSR types and the edition warriors, too; different segment of the market.

Well, I'd make sure I had at least four reliable people I knew would show up; as you taught me lo the decades ago, "the best spontaneous demonstrations are carefully planned."  GaryCon might work, but in any case I'd have some plants.

More likely I'd find some eager, young, healthy, and not too bright young lad and convince him that HE wants to do this.  To quote Obi-Wan Kenobi, "I'm getting too old for this sort of thing."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 08, 2017, 09:51:31 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;939380
More later...

Reading the posts about travel made me think on the subject of "gifts" on Tekumel.  Traveling for the Temple, I might present the local guard squad with some fresher or more varied supplies than standard army chow, and/or make provisions for religious observances; traveling as a private citizen, I might invite the hereksa of that tower to dine with me that night; traveling as the Glorious General I might let the hereksa know that she will be favorably mentioned in my dispatches; etc.

Rewards can take many forms other than crude specie.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on January 08, 2017, 11:02:35 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;939552
Reading the posts about travel made me think on the subject of "gifts" on Tekumel.  Traveling for the Temple, I might present the local guard squad with some fresher or more varied supplies than standard army chow, and/or make provisions for religious observances; traveling as a private citizen, I might invite the hereksa of that tower to dine with me that night; traveling as the Glorious General I might let the hereksa know that she will be favorably mentioned in my dispatches; etc.

Rewards can take many forms other than crude specie.


This is interesting. So, what would you say the "correct" non-pecuniary inducement would be for the guard at the gate to the city who decides that the PC's are perfect for a shakedown, or the merchant that simply has nothing that the PC's are in need of, but might know someone who has what they are looking for (if only he could remember...), or the bureaucrat that is just too busy to deal with the party right now and tells them to come back tomorrow or next week, but is the only one that can sign off on a document the PC's absolutely need?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 08, 2017, 11:16:58 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;939560
This is interesting. So, what would you say the "correct" non-pecuniary inducement would be for the guard at the gate to the city who decides that the PC's are perfect for a shakedown, or the merchant that simply has nothing that the PC's are in need of, but might know someone who has what they are looking for (if only he could remember...), or the bureaucrat that is just too busy to deal with the party right now and tells them to come back tomorrow or next week, but is the only one that can sign off on a document the PC's absolutely need?

Shemek

Depends... who am I?  Who are the PCs?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on January 08, 2017, 11:32:12 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;939565
Depends... who am I?  Who are the PCs?

Ok, you are one of the above mentioned individuals, and the PC's are "nobodies", perhaps foreigners, or low clan.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on January 09, 2017, 04:41:30 AM
A bit late to the discussion but here in the UK various groups run what are known as Megagames but which are really Braunstein-a-likes. The organisers arrange a location, a scenario and a team of referees then gather players for a day's gaming. I played in quite a few over the years a Battle of Britain game at Sandhurst, a Morgan's Raid on Panama, a sci-fi invasion, a World War One game. All involve about 50-80 people and for a modest cost provide a day full of entertainment. They don't seem to have a problem in getting enough players together.

Megagame Makers (http://www.megagames.org.uk/)
Megagame Society (http://megagamesociety.com/)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: nDervish on January 09, 2017, 05:44:34 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;939527
Who?

Seriously; neither of them has a lot of name recognition anymore, outside of the specialists. I was in the FLGS closest to my house, when I mentioned the two of them, and the denizens had no idea who had written D&D; all they knew was that the game had been done by WotC, and they didn't know anything about TSR either.


All too true.  It was probably three years ago now, after running a session of ACKS I was waiting for the bus and talking to one of my players, who was in his mid-to-late 20s and mostly experienced with 3eD&D/Pathfinder, about differences between early editions of D&D and what he was used to.  In the course of the conversation, I made passing references to TSR and Gygax, then, in both cases, had to double back and explain to him who they were.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 09, 2017, 02:57:09 PM
I suppose that shouldn't surprise me.  After all, for most people, "history" is this vague miasma with cavemen, George Washington, Romans, knights in armor, World War 2, pyramids, and Abraham Lincoln all floating around in it and occasionally some figure comes into focus.

I discovered about 10 years ago that C.S. Lewis had made the same observation in slightly different words back in the 1940s.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 09, 2017, 05:21:21 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;939527
Who?

Seriously; neither of them has a lot of name recognition anymore, outside of the specialists. I was in the FLGS closest to my house, when I mentioned the two of them, and the denizens had no idea who had written D&D; all they knew was that the game had been done by WotC, and they didn't know anything about TSR either.

Agreed. What we had was what we had, and what we had to deal with was what we had to deal with.
Well, surely they have heard about the game those two designed, so you can replace the names with "the guys who designed D&D back before D&D existed":)?
Of course, I'd understand the Major if he didn't want to play with people who lack interest in history...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;939662
I suppose that shouldn't surprise me.  After all, for most people, "history" is this vague miasma with cavemen, George Washington, Romans, knights in armor, World War 2, pyramids, and Abraham Lincoln all floating around in it and occasionally some figure comes into focus.

I discovered about 10 years ago that C.S. Lewis had made the same observation in slightly different words back in the 1940s.
And the best part is when people don't listen, but then they wonder about repeating the same mistakes over and over;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 09, 2017, 05:47:13 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;939543
I can never quite decide if creativity has always been uncommon and the smaller, grass-roots gaming community in the old days simply drew more creative people or if creativity has been eroded and stigmatized by a world with access to professionally produced media.


I'd lean to the former, myself, based on what I've seen over the years. As gaming - and fandom, etc. - have become more mainstreamed the people up at the end of the bell curve have been more and more marginalized. I saw the same thing happen in F/SF fandom convention-running, where the really good organizers and runners were swamped and finally forced out by the mediocre ones. Standards of what makes a convention successful have become much lower - the kind of thing that we tried very hard not to let happen in my time in the barrel are now commonplace. Which is one of the big reasons why I avoid conventions like the plague...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 09, 2017, 05:51:23 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;939550
Well, I'd make sure I had at least four reliable people I knew would show up; as you taught me lo the decades ago, "the best spontaneous demonstrations are carefully planned."  GaryCon might work, but in any case I'd have some plants.

More likely I'd find some eager, young, healthy, and not too bright young lad and convince him that HE wants to do this.  To quote Obi-Wan Kenobi, "I'm getting too old for this sort of thing."


Agreed. Stuff like this is a lot of work to prepare for and to stage, and the vast majority of people never seem to understand the amount of work it takes. Which is why I did my 'Event Guide' for people, to give them an idea of why I have certain requirements for my running games at events.

I don't do half-a-dozen pre-painted plastics and a battle mat, and it has gotten old trying to explain that to people.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 09, 2017, 05:52:48 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;939552
Reading the posts about travel made me think on the subject of "gifts" on Tekumel.  Traveling for the Temple, I might present the local guard squad with some fresher or more varied supplies than standard army chow, and/or make provisions for religious observances; traveling as a private citizen, I might invite the hereksa of that tower to dine with me that night; traveling as the Glorious General I might let the hereksa know that she will be favorably mentioned in my dispatches; etc.

Rewards can take many forms other than crude specie.


This! "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" works just fine... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 09, 2017, 06:01:09 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;939560
This is interesting. So, what would you say the "correct" non-pecuniary inducement would be for the guard at the gate to the city who decides that the PC's are perfect for a shakedown, or the merchant that simply has nothing that the PC's are in need of, but might know someone who has what they are looking for (if only he could remember...), or the bureaucrat that is just too busy to deal with the party right now and tells them to come back tomorrow or next week, but is the only one that can sign off on a document the PC's absolutely need?

Shemek


1) Tip the guard while asking if they know of a good place to stay while one is in town. They'll get a commission, and you'll get in without hassle.

2) Buy something anyway, and ask for advice on what you really need. The merchant will appreciate your thoughtfulness, and will get a 'finder's fee' from the other merchant. They'll be much more interested in helping you.

3. Tip the clerk. The clerk will slip the document in with the expense vouchers, and you'll get what you need this afternoon. A polite thank you to the official, with a little gift, will also help out.

In my time, simply being 'social' was always the best way to deal with people. One does not simply walk into a shop and plunk down the cash; one arrives, is greeted and made comfortable, served refreshments, and a pleasant conversation is had about the weather, local festivals, one's relatives, anbd then eventually business may be done. it's all very low key and low-pressure, and something that a lot of gamers simply can't get their heads around. like haggling - see also "Casablanca"...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 09, 2017, 06:05:09 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;939600
A bit late to the discussion but here in the UK various groups run what are known as Megagames but which are really Braunstein-a-likes. The organisers arrange a location, a scenario and a team of referees then gather players for a day's gaming. I played in quite a few over the years a Battle of Britain game at Sandhurst, a Morgan's Raid on Panama, a sci-fi invasion, a World War One game. All involve about 50-80 people and for a modest cost provide a day full of entertainment. They don't seem to have a problem in getting enough players together.

Megagame Makers (http://www.megagames.org.uk/)
Megagame Society (http://megagamesociety.com/)

Understood, but we're also talking about two very different gaming cultures. (See also the differences between UK and US model railway people.)

And keep in mind the geographical issues. The UK is the size of Minnesota; driving times are much, much longer here, which means that while the kind of gaming you mention does happen, I'd say that it is a largely an East Coast thing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 09, 2017, 06:06:00 PM
Quote from: nDervish;939607
All too true.  It was probably three years ago now, after running a session of ACKS I was waiting for the bus and talking to one of my players, who was in his mid-to-late 20s and mostly experienced with 3eD&D/Pathfinder, about differences between early editions of D&D and what he was used to.  In the course of the conversation, I made passing references to TSR and Gygax, then, in both cases, had to double back and explain to him who they were.

Yep. Same here.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 09, 2017, 06:08:59 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;939671
Well, surely they have heard about the game those two designed, so you can replace the names with "the guys who designed D&D back before D&D existed":)?
Of course, I'd understand the Major if he didn't want to play with people who lack interest in history...


And the best part is when people don't listen, but then they wonder about repeating the same mistakes over and over;).

1. Nope; didn't work. If it ain't Mike Mearls or another WotC person, it ain't. There is no D&D before WotC, just like there is no miniatures gaming before GW.

2. He'll play with anybody with half a brain. The issue is trying to get people to understand what their being offered.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on January 09, 2017, 09:52:46 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;939680
1) Tip the guard while asking if they know of a good place to stay while one is in town. They'll get a commission, and you'll get in without hassle.

2) Buy something anyway, and ask for advice on what you really need. The merchant will appreciate your thoughtfulness, and will get a 'finder's fee' from the other merchant. They'll be much more interested in helping you.

3. Tip the clerk. The clerk will slip the document in with the expense vouchers, and you'll get what you need this afternoon. A polite thank you to the official, with a little gift, will also help out.

In my time, simply being 'social' was always the best way to deal with people. One does not simply walk into a shop and plunk down the cash; one arrives, is greeted and made comfortable, served refreshments, and a pleasant conversation is had about the weather, local festivals, one's relatives, anbd then eventually business may be done. it's all very low key and low-pressure, and something that a lot of gamers simply can't get their heads around. like haggling - see also "Casablanca"...


Thanks Chirine! In my last game session the guys ran into 2 of the above situations and really muffed it. Ended up getting fleeced and making really stupid decisions. I was practically spoon feeding them at one point in the game. Strange, must have been something in the beer, as they all are very experienced players. One of those forest for the trees nights I guess.

 Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on January 09, 2017, 09:58:32 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;939683
Yep. Same here.


Me too, last summer when I was talking to a 19? year old gamer. His exact words were "Who's that?" and his response after I told him was "Oh..." :(  

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on January 10, 2017, 04:45:50 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;939682
Understood, but we're also talking about two very different gaming cultures. (See also the differences between UK and US model railway people.)

And keep in mind the geographical issues. The UK is the size of Minnesota; driving times are much, much longer here, which means that while the kind of gaming you mention does happen, I'd say that it is a largely an East Coast thing.


The UK might be as small as Minnesota but the roads are to scale and with 64 million people driving 35 million cars the traffic density is such that speeds are  low and the time to travel anywhere is longer with each passing year. The time to travel 234 miles to the next convention i'm attending will be 4 hours, much of it on motorways/freeways where 50mph is often the best speed one can hope for. It takes me 40 minutes to do the less than 20 miles to the local hospital for an appointment so local travel along single lane roads is a big handicap to going anywhere round here.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on January 10, 2017, 01:08:35 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;939680
In my time, simply being 'social' was always the best way to deal with people. One does not simply walk into a shop and plunk down the cash; one arrives, is greeted and made comfortable, served refreshments, and a pleasant conversation is had about the weather, local festivals, one's relatives, anbd then eventually business may be done. it's all very low key and low-pressure, and something that a lot of gamers simply can't get their heads around. like haggling - see also "Casablanca"...


Entire generations have grown up with "instant" commerce and cannot relate to taking time and socializing.
So, if you include that, they don't relate to it and the game is "boring".
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 10, 2017, 05:21:55 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;939684
1. Nope; didn't work. If it ain't Mike Mearls or another WotC person, it ain't. There is no D&D before WotC, just like there is no miniatures gaming before GW.

2. He'll play with anybody with half a brain. The issue is trying to get people to understand what their being offered.
Well, if we go by what Gronan saiys, that might be too high of a requirement;)!

More seriously, he has to explain what he's offering. I see how modesty might be an impediment to this, but then I also managed to overcome it:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 10, 2017, 05:40:01 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;939713
Thanks Chirine! In my last game session the guys ran into 2 of the above situations and really muffed it. Ended up getting fleeced and making really stupid decisions. I was practically spoon feeding them at one point in the game. Strange, must have been something in the beer, as they all are very experienced players. One of those forest for the trees nights I guess.

 Shemek

You're welcome! This sort of thing became a reflex with us in Phil's campaign - see also "Chirine, you've gone native."

Give it time; they'll get it. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 10, 2017, 05:40:39 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;939714
Me too, last summer when I was talking to a 19? year old gamer. His exact words were "Who's that?" and his response after I told him was "Oh..." :(  

Shemek

Yep. I get the same thing. :rolleyes:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 10, 2017, 05:48:36 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;939744
The UK might be as small as Minnesota but the roads are to scale and with 64 million people driving 35 million cars the traffic density is such that speeds are  low and the time to travel anywhere is longer with each passing year. The time to travel 234 miles to the next convention i'm attending will be 4 hours, much of it on motorways/freeways where 50mph is often the best speed one can hope for. It takes me 40 minutes to do the less than 20 miles to the local hospital for an appointment so local travel along single lane roads is a big handicap to going anywhere round here.

Agreed; I was being obscure, and what I should have said was that the population density of gamers is much lower here in the Midwest - probably higher on the East Coast. Gary Con is the nearest large (750-900+ people) at six hours away, a large miniatures event (500+) in Chicago at eight hours away. Locally, the single game convention has finally broken the 400+ barrier, but once again if one does not play the name brand games one does not play. It's very hard to get players for anything not 'name brand'; I think if we had a larger and more 'gaming-diverse' population, the good Major would get more players.

It's like at Gary Con, where the games starring the big names from TSR always sell out instantly - more of that 'name' and 'brand' recognition going on.

Sorry to hear about the traffic issues, by the way; I enjoyed driving over there during our visits. Rural driving was an eye-opener; motorways not so much.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 10, 2017, 05:49:15 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;939798
Entire generations have grown up with "instant" commerce and cannot relate to taking time and socializing.
So, if you include that, they don't relate to it and the game is "boring".
=

Ah! That's my problem! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 10, 2017, 05:49:52 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;939826
Well, if we go by what Gronan saiys, that might be too high of a requirement;)!

More seriously, he has to explain what he's offering. I see how modesty might be an impediment to this, but then I also managed to overcome it:D!

Agreed, on both points! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on January 10, 2017, 06:41:06 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;939466
Turner Classic Movies ran "Wind and the Lion" yesterday, much to my delight, and (so I am told) will be running the massive Harrison-Taylor-Burton "Cleopatra" on Friday. Pack a lunch; it's an epic of the Cecil B. DeMille school of film-making.

Picked up the new 1/900th quinquereme yesterday, in honor of Actium; it reminded me of Anthony's big honker of a flagship. Now, all I need is a golden barge; I have the decorative young ladies-in-waiting to fling flowers at the astonished citizens. Got some turning circles, too; "Out oars!" :)


The actual 1934 deMille version with Claudette Colbert comes on right before the 1963 version, and I believe there are several other versions on later that evening. Its a Cleomarathon, so pack a few meals!

(nb Forbidden Planet is on tomorrow)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: David Johansen on January 10, 2017, 09:03:01 PM
Honestly, I've known many gamers over the years who had no idea who Gary Gygax was let alone Dave Arneson.  Lots of them clearly never read the rules either.  "But that's how we played it!"  Which is fine if you have some idea of how it was supposed to be played.  But more often than not it's simply too much bother to figure it out or do the reading.  It's like the various Monopoly house rules that people don't realize aren't actually in the game.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: nDervish on January 11, 2017, 07:31:54 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;939798
Entire generations have grown up with "instant" commerce and cannot relate to taking time and socializing.
So, if you include that, they don't relate to it and the game is "boring".

I'm not sure that it's even just the instant commerce.  I've seen several discussions on various forums where people have complained that roleplaying shopkeepers is a total waste of time and that GMs should just let players browse the price lists in their spare time, then buy whatever they want at the book's listed price between game sessions so that, when they're at the table, they can focus exclusively on the "real" game (whether that means following the GM's story line, playing out combats, or whatever else).  There definitely seems to be an element of "shopkeepers are just vending machines", but there's also a feeling of "we don't want to waste time on mundane, day-to-day interactions".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on January 11, 2017, 10:12:14 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;939680
In my time, simply being 'social' was always the best way to deal with people. One does not simply walk into a shop and plunk down the cash; one arrives, is greeted and made comfortable, served refreshments, and a pleasant conversation is had about the weather, local festivals, one's relatives, and then eventually business may be done. it's all very low key and low-pressure, and something that a lot of gamers simply can't get their heads around. like haggling - see also "Casablanca"...
Oddly enough, this is something that all the young players (12-15 year olds) have done from the word go in our campaign. I think they would talk to everyone if they could. I was stunned at this and was hoping that it was my awesome GM skills, lol. I found at least one interesting source of their adapting this style when the only adult (one of their fathers, who is an experienced gamer and was more of the shop-keeps-as-vending-machines mentality) got annoyed and asked why they kept talking to everybody. They all said that in video games you talk to as many people as possible to get all the cool side quests, which give you all the unique items or clues that make beating a game easier. I admit this caught me by surprise as the idea that video games habits and tropes ruin tabletop games is pretty well plowed land and here they were turning it on its head. A very pleasant surprise, I must say.

Quote from: nDervish;939934
I'm not sure that it's even just the instant commerce.  I've seen several discussions on various forums where people have complained that roleplaying shopkeepers is a total waste of time and that GMs should just let players browse the price lists in their spare time, then buy whatever they want at the book's listed price between game sessions so that, when they're at the table, they can focus exclusively on the "real" game (whether that means following the GM's story line, playing out combats, or whatever else).  There definitely seems to be an element of "shopkeepers are just vending machines", but there's also a feeling of "we don't want to waste time on mundane, day-to-day interactions".
I get this, to a point. I don't want to role play character's trips to the privy. Something that serves a purpose to the game, that is different. If something tries to come up out of the cesspit to eat you in the privy, let's go.

As far as shopping, in some settings, how people treat you and vice versa carries far more meaning than in others, Tekumel being one of them. If somebody wants to drop in some hand wavy stuff, handing them the price lists and assuming the time, effort, and expense of things like Chirine mentions, I am cool with that. I can always slow things down if the characters are treated worse than before (which should cause some questions) or better (same). And I think in a more sandbox game, which is what I run, going to the shop or whatever is the real game or story line.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 11, 2017, 05:32:23 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;939842
The actual 1934 deMille version with Claudette Colbert comes on right before the 1963 version, and I believe there are several other versions on later that evening. Its a Cleomarathon, so pack a few meals!

(nb Forbidden Planet is on tomorrow)

Woo hoo! Now we're talking!

Phil once said that his vision of 'high technology' looked like  the Krell installations in "Forbidden Planet", so there;s some very good material there.

The Claudette Colbert 'Cleo' was on of his all time favorites - look at her in the film, then look at his 1950's drawing of Nayari of the Silken Thighs. The '63 version can;t be beat for sheer visual spectacle - Phil wanted his very own giant Sphinx cart to ride around on :) - for the characterization the '34 version is the best. She just owns the movie; the guys playing Caesar and Anthony just get left in the shade. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 11, 2017, 05:34:44 PM
Quote from: David Johansen;939880
Honestly, I've known many gamers over the years who had no idea who Gary Gygax was let alone Dave Arneson.  Lots of them clearly never read the rules either.  "But that's how we played it!"  Which is fine if you have some idea of how it was supposed to be played.  But more often than not it's simply too much bother to figure it out or do the reading.  It's like the various Monopoly house rules that people don't realize aren't actually in the game.

Yep; I've seen this myself. It never ceases to amaze me the very positive reaction I get from players, when I run my games in Ye Olden Style. They feel wonderfully liberated, and seem to have a good time. (Ask Gronan; he's been on the receiving end of my little efforts a few times.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 11, 2017, 05:38:36 PM
Quote from: nDervish;939934
I'm not sure that it's even just the instant commerce.  I've seen several discussions on various forums where people have complained that roleplaying shopkeepers is a total waste of time and that GMs should just let players browse the price lists in their spare time, then buy whatever they want at the book's listed price between game sessions so that, when they're at the table, they can focus exclusively on the "real" game (whether that means following the GM's story line, playing out combats, or whatever else).  There definitely seems to be an element of "shopkeepers are just vending machines", but there's also a feeling of "we don't want to waste time on mundane, day-to-day interactions".

Oh, my. I'm gobsmacked. Some of the very best, and I do mean very best nights we ever had with Phil were trips to the marketplace to do a little shopping, and we always found ourselves very challenged in the process - and all sorts of side adventures offered themselves, as a result.

I... I... I'm having trouble getting my head around this.I mean, I can understand it, but players like this would find my kind of gaming - as well as Braunsteins, for that matter - a complete waste of their time.

Sigh. Gods, I feel old...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 11, 2017, 05:39:20 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;940036
She just owns the movie; the guys playing Caesar and Anthony just get left in the shade. :)

Cleo always owns any movie she is pictured in;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 11, 2017, 05:51:47 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;939961
Oddly enough, this is something that all the young players (12-15 year olds) have done from the word go in our campaign. I think they would talk to everyone if they could. I was stunned at this and was hoping that it was my awesome GM skills, lol. I found at least one interesting source of their adapting this style when the only adult (one of their fathers, who is an experienced gamer and was more of the shop-keeps-as-vending-machines mentality) got annoyed and asked why they kept talking to everybody. They all said that in video games you talk to as many people as possible to get all the cool side quests, which give you all the unique items or clues that make beating a game easier. I admit this caught me by surprise as the idea that video games habits and tropes ruin tabletop games is pretty well plowed land and here they were turning it on its head. A very pleasant surprise, I must say.


I get this, to a point. I don't want to role play character's trips to the privy. Something that serves a purpose to the game, that is different. If something tries to come up out of the cesspit to eat you in the privy, let's go.

As far as shopping, in some settings, how people treat you and vice versa carries far more meaning than in others, Tekumel being one of them. If somebody wants to drop in some hand wavy stuff, handing them the price lists and assuming the time, effort, and expense of things like Chirine mentions, I am cool with that. I can always slow things down if the characters are treated worse than before (which should cause some questions) or better (same). And I think in a more sandbox game, which is what I run, going to the shop or whatever is the real game or story line.

Well, there's hope yet. I think that this is great, and you should encourage your young players - they'll have a lot more fun and adventure this way, I think.

"Why are you talking to everybody?" Well, we found out the hard way, that was the way to get information that kept us alive. And, as you say, got us the quests, cool stuff, and everything else.

Oh, yes, agreed; you don't game the stuff that doesn't need to be gamed. We never worried about stuff like this, as it was assumed that our PCs knew how to use the latrine. (As you say, what came up out of the latrine was a different matter. :eek: ) I don't mind people ordering off lists - I used to do this a lot for the Glorious General when I did all our requisitions - but I always enjoyed the face-to-face meetings with our suppliers. Which, I will say, happened a lot more with Phil after he questioned one of my requisitions, and I handed him the typed forms in triplicate for what the legion needed. He started to file them, and I insisted on having my original (white) copy back, but he could keep the accounting copy (yellow) and send the vendor (pink) copy on to the supplier. Phil gave me a look that promised dire doings once he got us out of Khirgar, but you know... he never questioned any of my requisitions ever again. Did get some very nice meetings out of it, too...

Carbon paper. It's a wonderful thing. :) Totally obsolete technology - I don't know if you can even get it, anymore - but I figured that if was good enough to win the Second World War, it was good enough for us...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 11, 2017, 05:55:51 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;940041
Cleo always owns any movie she is pictured in;).

Oh, yes; some actresses are better in the role then others, and I think Ms. Colbert was one of the very best.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on January 11, 2017, 10:04:03 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;940036
The Claudette Colbert 'Cleo' was on of his all time favorites - look at her in the film, then look at his 1950's drawing of Nayari of the Silken Thighs. The '63 version can;t be beat for sheer visual spectacle - Phil wanted his very own giant Sphinx cart to ride around on :) - for the characterization the '34 version is the best. She just owns the movie; the guys playing Caesar and Anthony just get left in the shade. :)

I know the Good Professor liked Rome. What was his opinion of the less glammy version of her from it?

Since we are talking movies, dId he ever see Apocalypto? If so, what did he think of it? The imagery and costumes of it were awesome and always remind me of Tekumel.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 11, 2017, 11:38:23 PM
OMG!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlhihCd6qtw
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 11, 2017, 11:54:43 PM
Boom! Zing!  TANTANTARAA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wRoOLac4Jw
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on January 12, 2017, 03:11:20 AM
Monica Bellucci as Cleopatra, Mama Mia.

Plus I never knew Gerard Depardieu played Obelix in FOUR live action Asterix movies.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on January 12, 2017, 04:14:54 AM
Interesting to hear about younger players schooled on video games taking the route of talking rather than attacking. I suspect that this behaviour learned via the quest found in those video games came about because the folks that wrote a lot of the story lines in early video games played TTRPGs in the same manner as the games played with the earliest of TTRPG GM's like Gary, Dave and the California guys. People like Sandy Petersen, Jennell Jacquays and Ken Rolston started out with TTPGs via Chaosium and ended up with careers in video game design taking their gaming techniques across to video..
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 12, 2017, 05:29:00 AM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;940114
Interesting to hear about younger players schooled on video games taking the route of talking rather than attacking. I suspect that this behaviour learned via the quest found in those video games came about because the folks that wrote a lot of the story lines in early video games played TTRPGs in the same manner as the games played with the earliest of TTRPG GM's like Gary, Dave and the California guys. People like Sandy Petersen, Jennell Jacquays and Ken Rolston started out with TTPGs via Chaosium and ended up with careers in video game design taking their gaming techniques across to video..

The guy who wrote the first working* TTRPG in Bulgarian is a game designer now, too:). I met him via another common interest we share, and he introduced me to my first stable group. I can say I learned a lot from him.

Bottomline, I suspect Hermes Serpent might well be right;)!

*I say "working", because there was another before it, and I know its authors as well. Following the rules of that one resulted in weird outcomes, though:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on January 12, 2017, 01:43:19 PM
Correction re the TCM Cleothon it isn't totally on Friday.  Claudette Colbert (1934) then Elizabeth Taylor (1963) are Friday but then there's a break and on Saturday we have Vivian Leigh (1945) and finally a very ancient version with Helen Gardner (1912!!!!)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron on January 12, 2017, 01:51:46 PM
One of the few things I miss about cable is TCM.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 12, 2017, 06:24:19 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;940086
I know the Good Professor liked Rome. What was his opinion of the less glammy version of her from it?

Since we are talking movies, dId he ever see Apocalypto? If so, what did he think of it? The imagery and costumes of it were awesome and always remind me of Tekumel.


No data, sorry; I found out about his liking of "Rome" after he passed away, when we were helping clean out the house and asked his wife about it. I suspect his response would have been "too English looking, and not enough Greek." Other then that, I think he enjoyed her portrayal in all her decadent glory. :)

No data here, either; the movie came out after he had fallen and broken his hip, and was effectively bedridden. To the best of my information, he never saw the movie in theaters, and he did not own it on DVD. Which is too bad, as I'd have paid real money to see it with him!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 12, 2017, 06:25:02 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;940110
Monica Bellucci as Cleopatra, Mama Mia.

Plus I never knew Gerard Depardieu played Obelix in FOUR live action Asterix movies.

Yep; she does the role very well! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 12, 2017, 06:26:16 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;940199
Correction re the TCM Cleothon it isn't totally on Friday.  Claudette Colbert (1934) then Elizabeth Taylor (1963) are Friday but then there's a break and on Saturday we have Vivian Leigh (1945) and finally a very ancient version with Helen Gardner (1912!!!!)

They are running the changes, aren't they! I'll look forward to seeing the silent - never have seen it, just heard about it...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 14, 2017, 12:26:31 PM
Cleothon update: Got the '34 version in the can, and we think we missed the '12. We're going to buy a copy of the '63 epic, so as to get the best possible look at the details. Love that scarab gong in the first palace in Alex scene - something that the Temple of Ksarul people would have given their eyeteeth for... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 14, 2017, 12:55:41 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;940571
Cleothon update: Got the '34 version in the can, and we think we missed the '12. We're going to buy a copy of the '63 epic, so as to get the best possible look at the details. Love that scarab gong in the first palace in Alex scene - something that the Temple of Ksarul people would have given their eyeteeth for... :)


Hear, hear!!! I liked the scene where Cleo is with her priestess/oracle and she see Caesar's death...The sets and costumes were beautiful. Not to mention the cool secret door!!! A great movie all around(for ideas & entertainment). I missed the Viven Leigh version(bad enough I was falling asleep on Liz. Good thing I've seen it quite a few times in past). I will have to seek out the '42 version, Viv is gorgeous. Liz is too... ;0) Good stuff.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 15, 2017, 04:58:31 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;940576
Hear, hear!!! I liked the scene where Cleo is with her priestess/oracle and she see Caesar's death...The sets and costumes were beautiful. Not to mention the cool secret door!!! A great movie all around(for ideas & entertainment). I missed the Viven Leigh version(bad enough I was falling asleep on Liz. Good thing I've seen it quite a few times in past). I will have to seek out the '42 version, Viv is gorgeous. Liz is too... ;0) Good stuff.

H:0)

Agreed! The '63 version is just full of details that a GM can swipe to set a scene, and the 'secret' passages in the palace - which everybody except the Romans seem to be able to use - are crying out for adventures. The golden barge at Tarsus and the ships at Actium are my special favorites - I've always wanted to have a model of the small dispatch boat that Antony uses to get around the fleet. (I'm not sure, but I think it may the the same boat Cleopatra uses to leave Rome, but I'll have to go through the scenes frame-by-frame to be compare them.)

And tents! I don't know about you, but after spending a couple of cold desert nights out in the Milumaniyani desert, those Roman tents looked mighty attractive. So, Grand Manner: http://www.grandmanner.co.uk/search?q=Tent&page=2 (http://www.grandmanner.co.uk/search?q=Tent&page=2)

The '34 version has a very nice set of palanquins, though; quite  the way to travel, I think, and something any self-respecting noble person should look into... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 15, 2017, 07:01:51 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;940752
Agreed! The '63 version is just full of details that a GM can swipe to set a scene, and the 'secret' passages in the palace - which everybody except the Romans seem to be able to use - are crying out for adventures. The golden barge at Tarsus and the ships at Actium are my special favorites - I've always wanted to have a model of the small dispatch boat that Antony uses to get around the fleet. (I'm not sure, but I think it may the the same boat Cleopatra uses to leave Rome, but I'll have to go through the scenes frame-by-frame to be compare them.)

And tents! I don't know about you, but after spending a couple of cold desert nights out in the Milumaniyani desert, those Roman tents looked mighty attractive. So, Grand Manner: http://www.grandmanner.co.uk/search?q=Tent&page=2 (http://www.grandmanner.co.uk/search?q=Tent&page=2)

The '34 version has a very nice set of palanquins, though; quite  the way to travel, I think, and something any self-respecting noble person should look into... :)

Scaling hot during the day, freezing at night, grit in your boots, sand fleas under your kilt, hostile tribesmen everywhere... what's not to like about Milumanaya?  Except, of course, everything...

Palanquins are nice, but when with the Legion I always followed your advice that the troops think better of an officer who marches on his own feet.  And the General doesn't eat until all the troops are fed.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 15, 2017, 08:56:11 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;940761
Scaling hot during the day, freezing at night, grit in your boots, sand fleas under your kilt, hostile tribesmen everywhere... what's not to like about Milumanaya?  Except, of course, everything...

Palanquins are nice, but when with the Legion I always followed your advice that the troops think better of an officer who marches on his own feet.  And the General doesn't eat until all the troops are fed.

You could taste the dust in your mouth from Phil's descriptions. He admitted that he'd travelled in places like the Thar Desert, in the kind of transport that the locals used, and had "a bit of first-hand experience". To say the least...

(Yep. Brought that back from Ft. Knox in the summer of '76. My company officers all did this, and it was impressed on my lowly kay-det mind that if I wanted to have 'my people' follow me, then I'd better be thinking of their welfare ahead of my own.)

Agreed. Korunme had a very good reputation with the troops, because he was a 'fighting general' as well as a 'marching general'. The HQ tents got set up wherever we happened to be in the column at the end of the day's march - we didn't send a lackey up ahead to 'reserve' the best quarters for the commander - and we'd get our meals from whatever cohort we'd be located next to. Yes, we had a few people 'on the staff', but nothing like the elaborate retinues that some officers had to take care of their supposed needs. We'd make sure we had someplace to park the chlen carts, detail some troops to put up the tents, and that would be that. Put out sentries, and make sure that they get relieved on time and stay awake. (One very, and I do mean very, old trick is to put the known cowards on the long night watches. They'll stay awake.)

'Headquarters Duty" is not always considered with great happiness by solders. There's a lot of fuss and bother to be had, only offset by the possibility of 'perks' coming one's way. We made sure that we had as little of the former as possible, and as much of the latter that we could manage. One tended to allow a lot of latitude with the HQ details, once you could trust them. Old sweats were usually the best ones to have, as they knew how to play the system on your (and their, of course) behalf...

"The sergeants never go without; they've been at the game too long." - G. F. Frasier, LT, The Gordon Highlanders
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 17, 2017, 06:53:28 AM
Status Update - possible delays in posting...

I will be checking this thread regularly; at the moment, things are pretty chaotic here at the house as Fifth Daughter's worldly goods arrived from Zurich on Saturday with a half-hour's notice. We got everything in, but the house is packed to the gunwales with boxes and bubble-pack. Things may be a little slow, but we'll still be here...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on January 17, 2017, 05:12:50 PM
Chirine,
I've decided to do a tubeway car for my game, but was curios as to how you exactly applied the coating. Did you trowel it on, or cut it with water and brush it on in several thin coats, then sand it to shape and smoothness?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 17, 2017, 05:53:02 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;941083
Chirine,
I've decided to do a tubeway car for my game, but was curios as to how you exactly applied the coating. Did you trowel it on, or cut it with water and brush it on in several thin coats, then sand it to shape and smoothness?

Shemek


I thinned the acrylic filler down a bit with water, and then brushed it on with a cheap coarse bristle brush - don't use a nice brush for this. I did a coat, let it dry hard, then sanded it down with a medium sanding block. I then did a second coat just like the first, and repeated the process. Once I cleaned the dust off, I did the primer and painted with the spray silver. It's important to completely seal off the foam from the silver spray paint, otherwise the solvents in the pain will dissolve the foam.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on January 18, 2017, 01:50:48 PM
I assume like many Asian societies Tekumel also has "Untouchables".
How has this impacted the gaming?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 18, 2017, 05:54:47 PM
Wow!  A shame I didn't find this thread closer to its genesis.  What a marathon, I'm only up in the 600s so I really do apologize if it's been asked in to the intervening myriad of posts, I'll get there eventually!

But I did want to get a question started, and thank you for this wonderful thread and resource.  I'm currently working on getting a new Tekumel game group going locally, finally having friends who are of the right mindset to go into a fun social, explore game!  

Smoeone locked in stasis by an eye or other means from distant past?  How would it work out when brought back?  any generalizations?

If it was a Priest/Priestess?  (I imagine this is easy?  Especially if post Pavar, potentially even super valuable to their temple through dint of knowing Engsyvalyani stuff?)

If it was a "Good little clan girl?" from a clan that no one's heard of or doesn't exist?  What if she's from a clan that did?  

Would you recommend people frozen for millenia by the Ruby Eye to be a potential good variant of 'fresh off the boat?'
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 18, 2017, 06:08:59 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;941212
I assume like many Asian societies Tekumel also has "Untouchables".
How has this impacted the gaming?
=

The one thing/group that comes instantly to mind are slavers. They are, for all intents and purposes, 'untouchables' and more or less social outcasts - despite many of them being very wealthy.

People who collect garbage and 'night soil', on the other hand, are members of ancient and respectable clans, and are dealt with politely.

In gaming terms, we just didn't have anything to do with slavers, as we moved in socially acceptable circles. Heck, even Ssu and Hlyss are more acceptable then slavers. It just didn't come up in our games with Phil, as far as I remember.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 18, 2017, 06:22:42 PM
From Dulahan:
Wow!  A shame I didn't find this thread closer to its genesis.  What a marathon, I'm only up in the 600s so I really do apologize if it's been asked in to the intervening myriad of posts, I'll get there eventually!

Welcome aboard! I'm here to try to answer people's questions about our time gaming with Phil, so ask away!

But I did want to get a question started, and thank you for this wonderful thread and resource.  I'm currently working on getting a new Tekumel game group going locally, finally having friends who are of the right mindset to go into a fun social, explore game!

Happy to help, and don't worry about asking what might be a 'duplicate' question. This is a huge thread, with lots of information crammed into it, and anything you ask helps us all understand Phil's creation.

Someone locked in stasis by an eye or other means from distant past?  How would it work out when brought back?  any generalizations?

Usually, it's an Excellent Ruby Eye, and you need one to get them out of it. For the person in stasis, time does not pass at all; it's like they stepped from one room to another. In general, the more time passed, the less likely that the person will find it easy to adapt to their new surroundings; some have simply gone insane, and others have died. Quite a few have adapted, however, and fit into to 'modern' society. I should  note that most people are kept 'on the shelf' by the temples as living historical sources in libraries and such.

If it was a Priest/Priestess?  (I imagine this is easy?  Especially if post Pavar, potentially even super valuable to their temple through dint of knowing Engsyvalyani stuff?)

Yes, very much so. They will spent the rest of their lives in pretty comfortable surroundings, and kept well-guarded by their temple.

If it was a "Good little clan girl?" from a clan that no one's heard of or doesn't exist?  What if she's from a clan that did?

She'd be 'adopted' by a clan descended from hers, or into the clan of the person who got her out of stasis. "You did t, you're responsible for her." If she's from a known clan, she's their responsibility, and the temples and Imperium will tread carefully. She may have property rights of her own or the clan's, and she and they will be compensated for such if it's an issue. One does not mess around with clan relations, of any kind, as it can have very serious results for everyone.

Would you recommend people frozen for millenia by the Ruby Eye to be a potential good variant of 'fresh off the boat?'

Yes, if the PC is played by a good role-player, and one who reads up on their original historical period. There would be a lot of acting involved; see also Gronan's Flemish man-at-arms, who we all thought a trifle odd at times but did get along with. Good man in a fight, too.

Does this help, any?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 18, 2017, 08:52:52 PM
Absolutely.  Thanks a lot!  I do have a couple of players who might be interested in that too.

More to think of too!  Definitely something I might throw in as an adventure at some point (thus the good clan girl option too)

I know there'll be more things to come, but that's it for the moment.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on January 18, 2017, 08:55:43 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;941091
I thinned the acrylic filler down a bit with water, and then brushed it on with a cheap coarse bristle brush - don't use a nice brush for this. I did a coat, let it dry hard, then sanded it down with a medium sanding block. I then did a second coat just like the first, and repeated the process. Once I cleaned the dust off, I did the primer and painted with the spray silver. It's important to completely seal off the foam from the silver spray paint, otherwise the solvents in the pain will dissolve the foam.


That's great. Thanks for the help!

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on January 18, 2017, 09:04:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;941246
The one thing/group that comes instantly to mind are slavers. They are, for all intents and purposes, 'untouchables' and more or less social outcasts - despite many of them being very wealthy.

People who collect garbage and 'night soil', on the other hand, are members of ancient and respectable clans, and are dealt with politely.

In gaming terms, we just didn't have anything to do with slavers, as we moved in socially acceptable circles. Heck, even Ssu and Hlyss are more acceptable then slavers. It just didn't come up in our games with Phil, as far as I remember.


I seem to recall reading somewhere that the corpse collectors are also kind of 'untouchable' as are the corpse washers/preparers. Not sure where I read it though.:confused:

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 19, 2017, 09:40:42 AM
OK, another one that came up in my readings so far.  I caught reference to some Mountain Top City or Kingdom, other side of world.  I forget if it was in the South or other side of the North.  But either way, I've a weird thing for cool isolated pockets like that.  Probably coming from my fascination with Tibet...  

I sadly forgot the name since I went many pages before realizing I wanted more.  Though would it be safe to say this specific place was inspired by Nepal or Tibet?  Any further neat vignettes about it?


EDIT:

Actually, something else.

My graduate studies focused heavy on Central Asia.  Particularly the Mongols, but the program was holistic so I learned about pretty much the wide spectrum.  Obviously the whole Horse People thing isn't going to work too well to draw on for Tekumel, but that said, there's some other cultures and cultural elements that might.  Any particularly good areas other than Milumanaya that drawing on that knowledge will be extra useful for?

Yes, as I say this I am reading the posts in the late 600s about Afghanistan, and how much that influenced the Professor.  Which in turn reminded me about an article I read involving some German Tourists who were traveling in Central Asia.  They were in Eastern Iran, and did something nice for someone there who found out they were traveling in Afghanistan next.  Gave them a pretty shawl for the wife of the pair to wear.

Afghanistan went splendidly for them.  They found out much later in their trip the shawl was some sort of marker of protection from one of the more influential clans or tribes in the area, so that apparently was why they were treated like royalty, no one wanted to offend said group!  And now yes, things just clicked a bit more for how Tekumel's clan structures work.  Because I imagine that is -exactly- the sort of way things can go in setting.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 19, 2017, 11:12:26 AM
Quote from: Dulahan;941312
OK, another one that came up in my readings so far.  I caught reference to some Mountain Top City or Kingdom, other side of world.  I forget if it was in the South or other side of the North.  But either way, I've a weird thing for cool isolated pockets like that.  Probably coming from my fascination with Tibet...  

I sadly forgot the name since I went many pages before realizing I wanted more.  Though would it be safe to say this specific place was inspired by Nepal or Tibet?  Any further neat vignettes about it?


EDIT:

Actually, something else.

My graduate studies focused heavy on Central Asia.  Particularly the Mongols, but the program was holistic so I learned about pretty much the wide spectrum.  Obviously the whole Horse People thing isn't going to work too well to draw on for Tekumel, but that said, there's some other cultures and cultural elements that might.  Any particularly good areas other than Milumanaya that drawing on that knowledge will be extra useful for?

Yes, as I say this I am reading the posts in the late 600s about Afghanistan, and how much that influenced the Professor.  Which in turn reminded me about an article I read involving some German Tourists who were traveling in Central Asia.  They were in Eastern Iran, and did something nice for someone there who found out they were traveling in Afghanistan next.  Gave them a pretty shawl for the wife of the pair to wear.

Afghanistan went splendidly for them.  They found out much later in their trip the shawl was some sort of marker of protection from one of the more influential clans or tribes in the area, so that apparently was why they were treated like royalty, no one wanted to offend said group!  And now yes, things just clicked a bit more for how Tekumel's clan structures work.  Because I imagine that is -exactly- the sort of way things can go in setting.


That is a good point. So unless you don't want to be know, why we display our Legion/Clan badges when out and about town(at least that's what I would do)...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 19, 2017, 11:55:55 AM
Personally, I was as much thinking of it as an 'off the boat' sort of thing too.  PCs arrive, help someone and are given something innocuous but useful.  Things go well, eventually they find out why!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 19, 2017, 07:22:22 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;941271
Absolutely.  Thanks a lot!  I do have a couple of players who might be interested in that too.

More to think of too!  Definitely something I might throw in as an adventure at some point (thus the good clan girl option too)

I know there'll be more things to come, but that's it for the moment.

You're welcome! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 19, 2017, 07:23:16 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;941273
That's great. Thanks for the help!

Shemek

You're welcome! Let us see it, when it's ready... ;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 19, 2017, 07:24:25 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;941275
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the corpse collectors are also kind of 'untouchable' as are the corpse washers/preparers. Not sure where I read it though.:confused:

Shemek.

Hmmm. Might be in one of the small states; in the Five Empires, this is handled by the temples of Sarku or Belkhanu, or the local equivalent.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 19, 2017, 07:27:54 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;941312
OK, another one that came up in my readings so far.  I caught reference to some Mountain Top City or Kingdom, other side of world.  I forget if it was in the South or other side of the North.  But either way, I've a weird thing for cool isolated pockets like that.  Probably coming from my fascination with Tibet...  

I sadly forgot the name since I went many pages before realizing I wanted more.  Though would it be safe to say this specific place was inspired by Nepal or Tibet?  Any further neat vignettes about it?


EDIT:

Actually, something else.

My graduate studies focused heavy on Central Asia.  Particularly the Mongols, but the program was holistic so I learned about pretty much the wide spectrum.  Obviously the whole Horse People thing isn't going to work too well to draw on for Tekumel, but that said, there's some other cultures and cultural elements that might.  Any particularly good areas other than Milumanaya that drawing on that knowledge will be extra useful for?

Yes, as I say this I am reading the posts in the late 600s about Afghanistan, and how much that influenced the Professor.  Which in turn reminded me about an article I read involving some German Tourists who were traveling in Central Asia.  They were in Eastern Iran, and did something nice for someone there who found out they were traveling in Afghanistan next.  Gave them a pretty shawl for the wife of the pair to wear.

Afghanistan went splendidly for them.  They found out much later in their trip the shawl was some sort of marker of protection from one of the more influential clans or tribes in the area, so that apparently was why they were treated like royalty, no one wanted to offend said group!  And now yes, things just clicked a bit more for how Tekumel's clan structures work.  Because I imagine that is -exactly- the sort of way things can go in setting.

a. Can you be more specific? I can think of several places that match your description.

b. Yes, exactly. This is how Phil envisioned his societies working - he had stories like this of his own to tell about his travels.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 19, 2017, 07:29:58 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;941317
That is a good point. So unless you don't want to be know, why we display our Legion/Clan badges when out and about town(at least that's what I would do)...

H:0)

Yes, somebody not doing so would be instantly suspected of being Up To No Good, and watched very closely by everyone in the street. If there's anything that goes amiss, they'll be the first one pointed out to the authorities.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 19, 2017, 07:32:09 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;941321
Personally, I was as much thinking of it as an 'off the boat' sort of thing too.  PCs arrive, help someone and are given something innocuous but useful.  Things go well, eventually they find out why!


Yes, exactly. This is the way most of Phil's first players got started, getting jobs working for people like Lady Mnella in Jakalla.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 19, 2017, 09:00:57 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;941386
a. Can you be more specific? I can think of several places that match your description.

b. Yes, exactly. This is how Phil envisioned his societies working - he had stories like this of his own to tell about his travels.

Sadly, apparently not.  I read through too many pages yesterday it seems.   I've been trying to find it page by page, but no luck so far!  So I'll take what I can get about any of them.  I'm pretty sure Hokun were mentioned in the same post, but not this kingdom proper.  So maybe it was one on the other side of the Northern Hemisphere?  Or somewhere else?

EDIT:  I also remember this kingdom proper was supposed to be isolated.  If that helps more!

EDIT 2:  Mystery solved!  A bit of information overload on my part.  I was reading the old Ucon Conversations book right before I started this thread, and it was something from there.  The Nation of Hekadonde to be specific.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 20, 2017, 12:36:01 AM
Probably the closest to "untouchable" would be the nakome (the clanless.) It was one reason I joined the army; it gave me a place in society.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 20, 2017, 06:33:13 AM
Quote from: Dulahan;941394
Sadly, apparently not.  I read through too many pages yesterday it seems.   I've been trying to find it page by page, but no luck so far!  So I'll take what I can get about any of them.  I'm pretty sure Hokun were mentioned in the same post, but not this kingdom proper.  So maybe it was one on the other side of the Northern Hemisphere?  Or somewhere else?

EDIT:  I also remember this kingdom proper was supposed to be isolated.  If that helps more!

EDIT 2:  Mystery solved!  A bit of information overload on my part.  I was reading the old Ucon Conversations book right before I started this thread, and it was something from there.  The Nation of Hekadonde to be specific.


It could have been when Uncle was telling us his tale of the encounter with the "Brown and Purple" Empire on the Northern continent on the other side of Tekumel...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 20, 2017, 09:33:08 AM
I concede I'd also really love to know more about the Purple and Brown Empire, but between a post I noticed yesterday, and what's been said I gather that their armor is somewhat more plain.  They have some sort of monolithic government.  They're expansionistic.  Probably have some spies in the 5 Empires...  And know of the Hokun.

Anything else?  

Like what their names are like?  Are they all like Chinese sounding like Fu Hsi?  (Trivia!  that's actually the name of a figure from Chinese Myth, one of the three sovereigns: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuxi)  Or didn't you learn any other names?

Religious Details?

They seem like they could be a good potential antagonist or ally depending for my own game I'm planning, what with spies and Expasionistic tendencies.  Or even just a place to send my poor PCs as Diplomats at some point.

Honestly, I'm a setting nerd in general, I love learning all I can about in depth settings.  So anything at all about the parts of Tekumel not otherwise detailed are things I'm fascinated by.  Different nations and cultures and histories especially.  Probably comes from my own being a Historian or something.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 20, 2017, 10:40:22 AM
Uncle, first, allow me to express my hope that the daughter's luggage arriving is a good thing, not a bad thing:)! (I'm sure you'd be glad to see her either way!)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;941386
a. Can you be more specific? I can think of several places that match your description.

b. Yes, exactly. This is how Phil envisioned his societies working - he had stories like this of his own to tell about his travels.

I'm starting to think that those stories, or what you remember of them, might make a nice appendix to your book. After all, they're probably the inspiration of a lot of the "adventuring" side of Tekumel! And something like "The Hidden Roots of the Petal Throne" might be a fitting title;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;941387
Yes, somebody not doing so would be instantly suspected of being Up To No Good, and watched very closely by everyone in the street. If there's anything that goes amiss, they'll be the first one pointed out to the authorities.

Of course, that's exactly how it was in Europe, though most fantasy ignores it. You display the signs that identify you as part of (or head of) a group.
Why would a decent man cover his family crest, or his coat of arms? These are things you're supposed to be proud of. Why aren't you? Are you not a decent man?
(Exception was made for stuff like people that have given an oath).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;941388
Yes, exactly. This is the way most of Phil's first players got started, getting jobs working for people like Lady Mnella in Jakalla.

Here's my question! Can you, or the Glorious General, describe what it would be like to simply walk down the street in the Foreigners' Quarter in Jakalla, looking for a place to stay:D?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 20, 2017, 11:27:32 AM
Quote from: Dulahan;941468
I concede I'd also really love to know more about the Purple and Brown Empire, but between a post I noticed yesterday, and what's been said I gather that their armor is somewhat more plain.  They have some sort of monolithic government.  They're expansionistic.  Probably have some spies in the 5 Empires...  And know of the Hokun.

Anything else?  

Like what their names are like?  Are they all like Chinese sounding like Fu Hsi?  (Trivia!  that's actually the name of a figure from Chinese Myth, one of the three sovereigns: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuxi)  Or didn't you learn any other names?

Religious Details?

They seem like they could be a good potential antagonist or ally depending for my own game I'm planning, what with spies and Expasionistic tendencies.  Or even just a place to send my poor PCs as Diplomats at some point.

Honestly, I'm a setting nerd in general, I love learning all I can about in depth settings.  So anything at all about the parts of Tekumel not otherwise detailed are things I'm fascinated by.  Different nations and cultures and histories especially.  Probably comes from my own being a Historian or something.


Yes, that's it. I also have a follow-up question for Uncle as well. "Totally unfamiliar style of armor and weapons...", Uncle if you could expand on that a bit if you remember. Any details about these strange weapons would be helpful...

Thanks,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 20, 2017, 11:52:36 AM
1500 posts in, and other stuff as well.  So now my questions are starting to flow!

Pariah Gods - Interesting to me that they just want to bring Tekumel BACK in reality.  I always thought they just wanted to destroy everything.  I mean, other than the fact the Lords of Humanspace would basically destroy Tekumel as it is anyways.

It definitely gives them a more positive vibe though, and something I want to know even more about now!


And here's another for gaming purposes proper rather than pure selfish desire to learn the setting.

What's a good reason for parties of different Faiths and Clans to adventure together?  Specifically some good reasons to shove them together.  The Tekumelani "met in an inn" for lack of a better term?  The core Thursday group sounds like it was quite diverse, but plenty of reason to work together.  the Legion angle seems like one, but what are some other reasons and methods?

For that matter, any advice if I don't go for the off the boat campaign idea?  A couple of my players, the two cores at that, are already diving into tekumel.com or my books (one's my roommate, so he has ready access to all the print material I let him - which is admittedly considerable, I've been tracking stuff down for the better part of 15 years ;) ), so they may well have some good ideas.  So even things as simple as "Don't let someone be a Very High Clan member and another a Low Clan in the same group" sort of stuff is useful.

EDIT:  What's the status of "To Serve the Petal Throne?"  Is it out in the wild somewhere?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 20, 2017, 03:19:51 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;941484
Here's my question! Can you, or the Glorious General, describe what it would be like to simply walk down the street in the Foreigners' Quarter in Jakalla, looking for a place to stay:D?

Horrible.

There is no law, or very little law, there.  As a clanless foreigner, the Imperium doesn't give two shits about you.  You are in the filthiest of filthy slums, and anybody who isn't going to murder you for your 73 Khaitars is going to rob you or cheat you instead.  It is filthy, squalid, crowded, and reeking.  We stayed three to a room so that two of us could sleep while one stood guard.

Think "The Maze" in R.E. Howard's Shaidizar, or perhaps "The Shades" in Ankh-Morpork.  Except nasty.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: estar on January 20, 2017, 03:39:59 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;941565
Horrible.

There is no law, or very little law, there.  As a clanless foreigner, the Imperium doesn't give two shits about you.  You are in the filthiest of filthy slums, and anybody who isn't going to murder you for your 73 Khaitars is going to rob you or cheat you instead.  It is filthy, squalid, crowded, and reeking.  We stayed three to a room so that two of us could sleep while one stood guard.

Think "The Maze" in R.E. Howard's Shaidizar, or perhaps "The Shades" in Ankh-Morpork.  Except nasty.

Why live there at all then? I am curious how the place came about.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 20, 2017, 03:58:19 PM
Quote from: estar;941574
Why live there at all then? I am curious how the place came about.

Like so many horrible places in real life:  Because what other option is there?  (Especially remembering how Nakome are otherwise treated!)  Don't get it wrong, it straight up is a ghetto for the poor, the down and out, the clanless.  And it's probably more dangerous outside it for them than in!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 20, 2017, 04:06:23 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;941579
Like so many horrible places in real life:  Because what other option is there?  (Especially remembering how Nakome are otherwise treated!)  Don't get it wrong, it straight up is a ghetto for the poor, the down and out, the clanless.  And it's probably more dangerous outside it for them than in!

Exactly.  Until you hit third level, there is some huge chance per turn you are outside the Foreigners' Quarter without a citizen as a guide that you will offend someone and be impaled.

Clanless foreigners are "waste persons" of no value to the Imperium.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 20, 2017, 04:17:14 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;941565
Horrible.

There is no law, or very little law, there.  As a clanless foreigner, the Imperium doesn't give two shits about you.  You are in the filthiest of filthy slums, and anybody who isn't going to murder you for your 73 Khaitars is going to rob you or cheat you instead.  It is filthy, squalid, crowded, and reeking.  We stayed three to a room so that two of us could sleep while one stood guard.

Think "The Maze" in R.E. Howard's Shaidizar, or perhaps "The Shades" in Ankh-Morpork.  Except nasty.
:D
Sounds like an interesting place, in the Chinese sense:).

Quote from: estar;941574
Why live there at all then? I am curious how the place came about.
IIRC*, foreigners are mandated to live there. They can be punished if the authorities find them living in another place. Even leaving is forbidden unless a citizen decides to be your patron and take you out for work.
If you're lucky, he's not going to be the agent of a forbidden cult practicing ritual sacrifices (forbidden because it reveres forbidden gods, the human sacrifices are a regular occurence in the main temples).
But odds are, the work is going to be dirty, demeaning, and you're a deniable asset to your "patron". At least the first few times - then he might start treating you as a "client". Eventually, you might be offered a membership in a clan, too...probably if it looks like some other clan might do the same in order to steal on of their HR assets.

If you want a real-world example, think "refugee camps in Central Asia, SE Asia or the Middle East, if it wasn't regulated by the UN". Because that's what "barbarians fresh off the boat" are, in essence.
Hint: Palestinian camps in Lebanon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians_in_Lebanon) might be a good example. And I suspect MARB would have been familiar with such examples.

That's why I wanted Chirine and Gronan to describe it;).

*I'm not running my game in Jakalla, or even Tsolyanu.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 20, 2017, 05:11:46 PM
OK, a couple more questions from all over the board:  

The Dragon Warriors.  I understand the N'luss were the descendants of the Space Marines, very likely.  does this mean they really did conquer their empire with lost tech, not actual dragons?  Did it ever come up in play or conversation one way or another?  Honestly, I've never even decided which I like better.  They're both REALLY cool!  Which now makes me wonder if it's both. At once.  Dudes on dragons alongside flying cars with freaking laser beams.


Now for something else very different.  Using Undead in Warfare is a big, huge no-no.  Get ready for the high ride!  BUT!  what if such is used against the inimicals?  Say a Sarku legion defending against the Ssu, Hluss, Hokun, or Hlutgru?  Is that a case of "Anything goes, screw those things?"  Or would that still be ignoble?

For that matter, would any of those races have easy ways to deal with the Undead?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 20, 2017, 05:20:03 PM
In my version of Tekumel, I'd bet on you being commended on your success against the inimical races, and sent for the high ride. Getting the opportunity to suicide in your cell might be considered as a mercy, given your service to the Empire.
Your clan would probably receive discreetly the tangible rewards for your success, but people would look at them askance for a while.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on January 20, 2017, 05:22:10 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;941493
1500 posts in, and other stuff as well.  So now my questions are starting to flow!

Pariah Gods - Interesting to me that they just want to bring Tekumel BACK in reality.  I always thought they just wanted to destroy everything.  I mean, other than the fact the Lords of Humanspace would basically destroy Tekumel as it is anyways.

It definitely gives them a more positive vibe though, and something I want to know even more about now!

So does that imply that the Pariah Gods have been given a bad press and they may in some way be the good guys? If they are working to return Tekumel to normal space...presumably they fell out with the original entities who went on to become the Gods of Pavar...who have a vested interest in Tekumel remaining where it is
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 20, 2017, 06:14:59 PM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));941608
So does that imply that the Pariah Gods have been given a bad press and they may in some way be the good guys? If they are working to return Tekumel to normal space...presumably they fell out with the original entities who went on to become the Gods of Pavar...who have a vested interest in Tekumel remaining where it is

The lords of Humanspace are no doubt Elves are wonderful, marvellous, glamorous, enchanting, terrific...but you'd notice, no doubt, that no one ever said the Lords of Humanspace are nice people, and their creations don't prove it, either.
The Pariah Gods want to return you to them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on January 20, 2017, 06:45:08 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;941619
The lords of Humanspace are no doubt Elves are wonderful, marvellous, glamorous, enchanting, terrific...but you'd notice, no doubt, that no one ever said the Lords of Humanspace are nice people, and their creations don't prove it, either.
The Pariah Gods want to return you to them.

Sure. I just wonder if the Gods of Pavar have an interest in that not happening (I'm sure they do...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on January 20, 2017, 10:19:58 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;941384
You're welcome! Let us see it, when it's ready... ;)


Sure, why not? It's definitely in the queue, right behind the 1/35 Jadgpanzer IV L/70 (which will be on the paint bench this weekend), the 1/35 JS2 and a bunch of miniatures for my game.
Finished the Tsolyani Aridani, some random critters to be used as proxies and or Saturday Night Specials, and now I'm trying to decide whether to the start another Aridani, perhaps a Yan Koryani, or do some more Legion of the Despairing Dead.  

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on January 20, 2017, 10:23:26 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;941385
Hmmm. Might be in one of the small states; in the Five Empires, this is handled by the temples of Sarku or Belkhanu, or the local equivalent.


Ya, you're right, it probably is. I just can't remember where I came across it.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on January 20, 2017, 10:40:31 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;941602
OK, a couple more questions from all over the board:  

The Dragon Warriors.  I understand the N'luss were the descendants of the Space Marines, very likely.  does this mean they really did conquer their empire with lost tech, not actual dragons?  Did it ever come up in play or conversation one way or another?  Honestly, I've never even decided which I like better.  They're both REALLY cool!  Which now makes me wonder if it's both. At once.  Dudes on dragons alongside flying cars with freaking laser beams.


Now for something else very different.  Using Undead in Warfare is a big, huge no-no.  Get ready for the high ride!  BUT!  what if such is used against the inimicals?  Say a Sarku legion defending against the Ssu, Hluss, Hokun, or Hlutgru?  Is that a case of "Anything goes, screw those things?"  Or would that still be ignoble?

For that matter, would any of those races have easy ways to deal with the Undead?


Welcome aboard Dulahan. You really should read Prince of Skulls which will answer your first question, and Flamesong which will answer your second.:D

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 21, 2017, 01:33:21 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;941682
Welcome aboard Dulahan. You really should read Prince of Skulls which will answer your first question, and Flamesong which will answer your second.:D

Shemek


Thanks!

Wow, I don't seem to recall either of those coming up in said books!  But it's been 10 years or so.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 21, 2017, 05:19:14 AM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));941627
Sure. I just wonder if the Gods of Pavar have an interest in that not happening (I'm sure they do...)

Sure they do! They're not out for Tekumeli humans' best interests, they're out for themselves first and their "cause" second, with one possible but unlikely exception:).
The question is, whose interests align best with those of the humans on Tekumel, and it's best answered by PCs learning forbidden knowledge that even the temple of Ksarul deems heretical;).

(Said exception probably only exists in my fan-canon. Maybe Ksarul is in the Blue Room prison because he tried to pull a Lord of the Light on the other gods of Pavar. If so, he is exactly a few moments before the point where the Lord of the Light novel begins:D).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 21, 2017, 08:22:51 AM
Quote from: Dulahan;941394
Sadly, apparently not.  I read through too many pages yesterday it seems.   I've been trying to find it page by page, but no luck so far!  So I'll take what I can get about any of them.  I'm pretty sure Hokun were mentioned in the same post, but not this kingdom proper.  So maybe it was one on the other side of the Northern Hemisphere?  Or somewhere else?

EDIT:  I also remember this kingdom proper was supposed to be isolated.  If that helps more!

EDIT 2:  Mystery solved!  A bit of information overload on my part.  I was reading the old Ucon Conversations book right before I started this thread, and it was something from there.  The Nation of Hekadonde to be specific.


Oh, okay; the over-the-North Pole country. Odd place, isolated from 'real civilization' in the Five Empires. We visited briefly by tubeway car, late in the 1980s, and once we found out that they were on pretty good terms with the Hokun we left in a hurry. We also got the impression that they were allies of what we called the 'purple-and-brown empire' that we contacted in the late 1970s, too.

They are sort of on a 'meridian line' up and over from the Five Empires, in the upper latitudes of the northern hemisphere over on their side of the planet - what I call the 'third quadrant' of Phil's globe; we occupy the first, the Southern Continent the second) and from what we got from them is that Benre Sa is located to the south of them and off to one side. There's kind of a 'beaten path' of a sea lane that connects the north polar ocean with them; the 1990s group followed this, which is where the U-Con Conversations material comes from. I have a set of the maps, as well.

Tibet would work well as a reference for them; they didn't seem to be a theocracy like the Nyemesel Isles or the real Tibet, though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 21, 2017, 08:24:58 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;941415
Probably the closest to "untouchable" would be the nakome (the clanless.) It was one reason I joined the army; it gave me a place in society.


Agreed. Being clanless is pretty difficult; see also "Man of Gold". Poor people off the boat are in this category; rich and connected people are not. I think we touched on this early on in this thread.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 21, 2017, 08:28:26 AM
Quote from: Dulahan;941468
I concede I'd also really love to know more about the Purple and Brown Empire, but between a post I noticed yesterday, and what's been said I gather that their armor is somewhat more plain.  They have some sort of monolithic government.  They're expansionistic.  Probably have some spies in the 5 Empires...  And know of the Hokun.

Anything else?  

Like what their names are like?  Are they all like Chinese sounding like Fu Hsi?  (Trivia!  that's actually the name of a figure from Chinese Myth, one of the three sovereigns: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuxi)  Or didn't you learn any other names?

Religious Details?

They seem like they could be a good potential antagonist or ally depending for my own game I'm planning, what with spies and Expasionistic tendencies.  Or even just a place to send my poor PCs as Diplomats at some point.

Honestly, I'm a setting nerd in general, I love learning all I can about in depth settings.  So anything at all about the parts of Tekumel not otherwise detailed are things I'm fascinated by.  Different nations and cultures and histories especially.  Probably comes from my own being a Historian or something.


Not a lot more, really. We didn't spend a lot of time on this, as we spent most of our time in the Five Empires dealing with all sorts of emergencies. Phil was very upfront about not detailing a lot of his world - about 75% of the planet's surface, actually! - so that GMs and players could make up their own adventures. Which I thought, and still think, was/is pretty damn generous of him...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 21, 2017, 08:43:29 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;941484
Uncle, first, allow me to express my hope that the daughter's luggage arriving is a good thing, not a bad thing:)! (I'm sure you'd be glad to see her either way!)


I'm starting to think that those stories, or what you remember of them, might make a nice appendix to your book. After all, they're probably the inspiration of a lot of the "adventuring" side of Tekumel! And something like "The Hidden Roots of the Petal Throne" might be a fitting title;).


Of course, that's exactly how it was in Europe, though most fantasy ignores it. You display the signs that identify you as part of (or head of) a group.
Why would a decent man cover his family crest, or his coat of arms? These are things you're supposed to be proud of. Why aren't you? Are you not a decent man?
(Exception was made for stuff like people that have given an oath).


Here's my question! Can you, or the Glorious General, describe what it would be like to simply walk down the street in the Foreigners' Quarter in Jakalla, looking for a place to stay:D?


1. Well, it was a little exciting; the shipping manifest called out that she had ten cubic meters of stuff, but it actually turned out to be about seven. She's been unpacking and collapsing boxes all week, and I have gotten more and more floor space back. Her new room is a little larger then the apartment she had in Zurich, so she's happy, and she seems to like being with 'Mom' and 'Dad'. Took her out to the FLGS last night to look at storage boxes for her comics, and she asked if we could get figures for her and Third Daughter for the campaign; Dark Sword got the sale, and I'm looking froward to painting them up. Got a figure for Second Son-in-law; must find one for First. First and Second Grandchildren were easy; Dark Fable miniatures has them.

2. They will, by and large, be in the book. I am shying away from footnotes and an appendix, as I am writing a book of Adventures - with a good bit of Action and Romance included. I am not writing a textbook or an RPG, but I will include a lot of this material where it is appropriate and will help the reader.

3. Exactly.

4. Dangererous. See also the second to the last story in the book, where Kyrinn Eis takes her PC down such a street. It's the Souk, the Casbah, the 'wrong part of medieval London or Paris, the worst parts of Hong Kong or Shanghai in the 1930s, or the nasty back alley outside Rick's Cafe in Casablanca. Very 'pulp'; it's the place where the 'civilized people' keep everybody that they consider 'uncivilized'.

I'd run this as an adventure, to give you the full flavor...

See also the discussion back in this thread about being 'connected'; one would normally try to use one's contacts, as this would get rid of a lot of the danger of being viewed as 'fair prey' by the denizens of the place.

Think Mos Eisley spaceport - a "wretched hive of scum and villainy..."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 21, 2017, 08:52:17 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;941491
Yes, that's it. I also have a follow-up question for Uncle as well. "Totally unfamiliar style of armor and weapons...", Uncle if you could expand on that a bit if you remember. Any details about these strange weapons would be helpful...

Thanks,

H:0)


Sure. They look more 'Persian' then we did, as Phil likened our more ornate armor to that os Southeast Asia; you could consider them to be more restrained. They didn't have the trademark 'big swoopy shoulderplates' that are a design feature of Five Empires armor, for example. A little more mail, a lot less plate; articulation was pretty rare, but then it's rare all over Tekumel. If I were going to model these, I'd use medieval Indo-Persian/Mughal figures.

Look in Stone's Glossary; lots of the Indo-Persian stuff fits with what we saw, which is not surprising as Phil also had a copy.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 21, 2017, 09:11:14 AM
From Dulahan:1500 posts in, and other stuff as well.  So now my questions are starting to flow!

Pariah Gods - Interesting to me that they just want to bring Tekumel BACK in reality.  I always thought they just wanted to destroy everything.  I mean, other than the fact the Lords of Humanspace would basically destroy Tekumel as it is anyways.

It definitely gives them a more positive vibe though, and something I want to know even more about now!


This was Phil's big in-joke; all us PCs were fighting to keep normality from being restored. He thought that is was funny when the Silver Suits first landed, but nobody else did. We were working to preserve our society, not destroy it.

And here's another for gaming purposes proper rather than pure selfish desire to learn the setting.

What's a good reason for parties of different Faiths and Clans to adventure together?  Specifically some good reasons to shove them together.  The Tekumelani "met in an inn" for lack of a better term?  The core Thursday group sounds like it was quite diverse, but plenty of reason to work together.  the Legion angle seems like one, but what are some other reasons and methods?


You work together because you need to; your temple owes another a favor, all sorts of reasons. Imperial 'suggestions' also come into play, as does the clan and family. We had mostly Change people, but we included Stability and others as needed for a particular mission/job/quest/adventure. See also "Man of Gold", where this is discussed in connection with the golden hand; one of the hardest things that RPG gamers have with 'getting Tekumel' is the idea that you are part of a functioning society, and not a footloose homicidal maniac.

For example, I am a Change worshipper (Vimuhla). My mercenary bodyguard, Vrisa, is Stability (One Of Light). We never had any issues with this; I did my job and paid her, and she killed anything that tried to bother us.

There are several hundred good reasons to work together, that I can think of that came up in our games. Try the Barsoom or Conan series for more examples. Greed, honor, glory, survival, and attraction all come to mind.

For that matter, any advice if I don't go for the off the boat campaign idea?  A couple of my players, the two cores at that, are already diving into tekumel.com or my books (one's my roommate, so he has ready access to all the print material I let him - which is admittedly considerable, I've been tracking stuff down for the better part of 15 years ;) ), so they may well have some good ideas.  So even things as simple as "Don't let someone be a Very High Clan member and another a Low Clan in the same group" sort of stuff is useful.

What I do is start new players at about third level in EPT, like Phil did with me. Give them a background, and give them a choice of jobs/quests/etc. from their clan or other organization. I prefer to keep all the members of a party at about the same level of social standing, as it makes it easier for them to get into the world. Different clans and temples are great, as it gives reasons to cooperate. Never had an issue with High/Low clan things, as I made it very clear how this works in Tekumel, and I had very good players. Get them together at a party at the clanhouse, and there you go.

EDIT:  What's the status of "To Serve the Petal Throne?"  Is it out in the wild somewhere?

I am steaming away at the thing, and am 127,000 words into it with another roughly 175,000 to go. There is no firm limit to the book; once I finish telling the stories of our adventures, it'll be finished. I do not have it up on line yet; I want to finish it first. Several of the regulars in this thread have seen the current draft; they may want to chime in with what they think of the thing so far. I am interested in comments, which they have been kind enough to make.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 21, 2017, 09:22:49 AM
From Dulahan: OK, a couple more questions from all over the board:  

The Dragon Warriors.  I understand the N'luss were the descendants of the Space Marines, very likely.  does this mean they really did conquer their empire with lost tech, not actual dragons?  Did it ever come up in play or conversation one way or another?  Honestly, I've never even decided which I like better.  They're both REALLY cool!  Which now makes me wonder if it's both. At once.  Dudes on dragons alongside flying cars with freaking laser beams.

That's what Phil hinted. We don't know for sure; we weren't there at the time and had no interest in traveling back in time to watch the carnage. Phil played it both ways in his campaign. (See also Book IV, in the tale of "The Affair of the Malchiran Emerald".) I can only point out that I saw lots of aircars in storage under Malchairan, and that Gertie the Great Golden Dragon of Blackmoor speaks Ancient Nlyssa - Irkutz - the Ancient Tongue of the Dragon Lords. And that my personal emblem on my own standard is that of the Dragon and the Flame of the Ancient Nlyss; Chirine is descended from one of their clans of sorcerers. Phil was nothing if not 'subtle' in his hinting...

Now for something else very different.  Using Undead in Warfare is a big, huge no-no.  Get ready for the high ride!  BUT!  what if such is used against the inimicals?  Say a Sarku legion defending against the Ssu, Hluss, Hokun, or Hlutgru?  Is that a case of "Anything goes, screw those things?"  Or would that still be ignoble?

For that matter, would any of those races have easy ways to deal with the Undead?


It's against the Concordat, and is an impaling offense. Period.

Yes; they kill them, usually by burning just like we do.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 21, 2017, 09:24:17 AM
Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));941608
So does that imply that the Pariah Gods have been given a bad press and they may in some way be the good guys? If they are working to return Tekumel to normal space...presumably they fell out with the original entities who went on to become the Gods of Pavar...who have a vested interest in Tekumel remaining where it is


Yes. The winners write the histories.

You got it. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 21, 2017, 09:25:42 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;941675
Sure, why not? It's definitely in the queue, right behind the 1/35 Jadgpanzer IV L/70 (which will be on the paint bench this weekend), the 1/35 JS2 and a bunch of miniatures for my game.
Finished the Tsolyani Aridani, some random critters to be used as proxies and or Saturday Night Specials, and now I'm trying to decide whether to the start another Aridani, perhaps a Yan Koryani, or do some more Legion of the Despairing Dead.  

Shemek


Ah, me! Those were the days, when we used to game in really big rooms with these 1/35 models. :)

looking forward to seeing these! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 21, 2017, 10:17:33 AM
There! I think we're all caught up.

Anybody besides me get the twitches seeing the rearguard at yesterday's parade march past with bayonets fixed, with their pipes and drums playing "Shenandoah"? Their former professor would have been proud of them, I think...

And, if you want my personal opinion, it's a sad day for history that none of the 'color commentators' picked up on the back story behind this. Me, I would have called out the guard, had them lock and load and fix bayonets, and looked to the defenses of the Military District of Washington. Whomever the idiot was that allowed the VMI Corps of Cadets to march past a President of the United States "with colors unfurled, with beat of drum, and with bayonets fixed" had no idea what happened on May 15th, 1864, and who won that little fracas. Hint: It was not "those people" in the blue uniforms who broke.

"Double canister at forty paces!" It might stop them, but I wouldn't be betting on it. (Where the hell is the First Minnesota when we need them?) And even then, if 'Old Blue Light' had been leading the Corps, they'd have stopped charging somewhere around Brooklyn. They have long memories, down there in Virginia.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 21, 2017, 10:32:00 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;941746
Sure. They look more 'Persian' then we did, as Phil likened our more ornate armor to that os Southeast Asia; you could consider them to be more restrained. They didn't have the trademark 'big swoopy shoulderplates' that are a design feature of Five Empires armor, for example. A little more mail, a lot less plate; articulation was pretty rare, but then it's rare all over Tekumel. If I were going to model these, I'd use medieval Indo-Persian/Mughal figures.

Look in Stone's Glossary; lots of the Indo-Persian stuff fits with what we saw, which is not surprising as Phil also had a copy.


Uncle,

Excellent!!! Thank you!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 21, 2017, 11:26:25 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;941758
There! I think we're all caught up.

Anybody besides me get the twitches seeing the rearguard at yesterday's parade march past with bayonets fixed, with their pipes and drums playing "Shenandoah"? Their former professor would have been proud of them, I think...

And, if you want my personal opinion, it's a sad day for history that none of the 'color commentators' picked up on the back story behind this. Me, I would have called out the guard, had them lock and load and fix bayonets, and looked to the defenses of the Military District of Washington. Whomever the idiot was that allowed the VMI Corps of Cadets to march past a President of the United States "with colors unfurled, with beat of drum, and with bayonets fixed" had no idea what happened on May 15th, 1864, and who won that little fracas. Hint: It was not "those people" in the blue uniforms who broke.

"Double canister at forty paces!" It might stop them, but I wouldn't be betting on it. (Where the hell is the First Minnesota when we need them?) And even then, if 'Old Blue Light' had been leading the Corps, they'd have stopped charging somewhere around Brooklyn. They have long memories, down there in Virginia.


Uncle,

You are a Gentleman and a Scholar...Thank you for the continuing education.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 21, 2017, 11:40:55 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;941745
1. Well, it was a little exciting; the shipping manifest called out that she had ten cubic meters of stuff, but it actually turned out to be about seven. She's been unpacking and collapsing boxes all week, and I have gotten more and more floor space back. Her new room is a little larger then the apartment she had in Zurich, so she's happy, and she seems to like being with 'Mom' and 'Dad'. Took her out to the FLGS last night to look at storage boxes for her comics, and she asked if we could get figures for her and Third Daughter for the campaign; Dark Sword got the sale, and I'm looking froward to painting them up. Got a figure for Second Son-in-law; must find one for First. First and Second Grandchildren were easy; Dark Fable miniatures has them.

The pleasure of picking miniatures for family members, then?

Quote
2. They will, by and large, be in the book. I am shying away from footnotes and an appendix, as I am writing a book of Adventures - with a good bit of Action and Romance included. I am not writing a textbook or an RPG, but I will include a lot of this material where it is appropriate and will help the reader.

Great!

Quote
4. Dangererous. See also the second to the last story in the book, where Kyrinn Eis takes her PC down such a street. It's the Souk, the Casbah, the 'wrong part of medieval London or Paris, the worst parts of Hong Kong or Shanghai in the 1930s, or the nasty back alley outside Rick's Cafe in Casablanca. Very 'pulp'; it's the place where the 'civilized people' keep everybody that they consider 'uncivilized'.

The wrong parts of Shanghai in the 30ies...a place where some Fairbairn guy has been known to stroll? That gives me an idea.

Quote
I'd run this as an adventure, to give you the full flavor...

I'm taking you up on this! Do you want me to roll a PC, or would you just tell me who it is I'm playing?

Quote
See also the discussion back in this thread about being 'connected'; one would normally try to use one's contacts, as this would get rid of a lot of the danger of being viewed as 'fair prey' by the denizens of the place.

Just as everywhere.
Of course, your contacts might make you a target, by themselves - if you're seen as a "soft target" for the kind of people that don't like your contacts.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;941758
There! I think we're all caught up.

Anybody besides me get the twitches seeing the rearguard at yesterday's parade march past with bayonets fixed, with their pipes and drums playing "Shenandoah"? Their former professor would have been proud of them, I think...

And, if you want my personal opinion, it's a sad day for history that none of the 'color commentators' picked up on the back story behind this. Me, I would have called out the guard, had them lock and load and fix bayonets, and looked to the defenses of the Military District of Washington. Whomever the idiot was that allowed the VMI Corps of Cadets to march past a President of the United States "with colors unfurled, with beat of drum, and with bayonets fixed" had no idea what happened on May 15th, 1864, and who won that little fracas. Hint: It was not "those people" in the blue uniforms who broke.

"Double canister at forty paces!" It might stop them, but I wouldn't be betting on it. (Where the hell is the First Minnesota when we need them?) And even then, if 'Old Blue Light' had been leading the Corps, they'd have stopped charging somewhere around Brooklyn. They have long memories, down there in Virginia.

When you put it like this...:D
I suddenly want to know how the Virginian State TV commented this picture;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 21, 2017, 02:53:12 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;941751
From Dulahan: OK, a couple more questions from all over the board:  

The Dragon Warriors.  I understand the N'luss were the descendants of the Space Marines, very likely.  does this mean they really did conquer their empire with lost tech, not actual dragons?  Did it ever come up in play or conversation one way or another?  Honestly, I've never even decided which I like better.  They're both REALLY cool!  Which now makes me wonder if it's both. At once.  Dudes on dragons alongside flying cars with freaking laser beams.

That's what Phil hinted. We don't know for sure; we weren't there at the time and had no interest in traveling back in time to watch the carnage. Phil played it both ways in his campaign. (See also Book IV, in the tale of "The Affair of the Malchiran Emerald".) I can only point out that I saw lots of aircars in storage under Malchairan, and that Gertie the Great Golden Dragon of Blackmoor speaks Ancient Nlyssa - Irkutz - the Ancient Tongue of the Dragon Lords. And that my personal emblem on my own standard is that of the Dragon and the Flame of the Ancient Nlyss; Chirine is descended from one of their clans of sorcerers. Phil was nothing if not 'subtle' in his hinting...

Now for something else very different.  Using Undead in Warfare is a big, huge no-no.  Get ready for the high ride!  BUT!  what if such is used against the inimicals?  Say a Sarku legion defending against the Ssu, Hluss, Hokun, or Hlutgru?  Is that a case of "Anything goes, screw those things?"  Or would that still be ignoble?

For that matter, would any of those races have easy ways to deal with the Undead?


It's against the Concordat, and is an impaling offense. Period.

Yes; they kill them, usually by burning just like we do.


Uncle,

A quick question...I'm not sure if we ever touched on this. Did you ever encounter any non-human undead(inimical or not)?

Thanks,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 21, 2017, 03:46:13 PM
I came across this today by coincidence...

Prof Barker wrote a few lines about the pre-Cataclysm Nlüss in Blue Room post #568:

"Absolutely. The N'luss were a genetic offshoot of the rather homogeneous human race before the Catastrophe. They seem to have been wanderers with few fixed bases. They traded rare metals and industrial technology to a variety of races within Humanspace -- and even beyond it occasionally. They maintained an attitude of aloof pride, which annoyed their other human counterparts, and which occasionally got them killed. They appear to have had little or no interest in ruling star empires, and were happiest when "questing.””

and this in post #753:

"It does look likely that the N'luss were"engineered" for size and strength, but this does not necessarily mean thatthey were direct descendants of any particular Terran group -- after all, millennia passed between our own time and any possible starting date forthe N'luss,

N'luss legend states that they came from a "homeland" in the Plain of Towers, and that they served as guards and soldiers in the armies of Lords Vimuhla and Chiteng on Dormoron Plain. From this, comes the origin of the Dragon Warriors, whom the N'luss proudly call "our fathers."

They may well have been some sort of special military unit landed onTekumel before the Time of Darkness. They have maintained their pride and their physical prowess ever since."

It was posted in a Tekumel chat group, not my words. I thought it fit in with Dulahan's question...

Enjoy,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on January 21, 2017, 04:08:30 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;941805
I came across this today by coincidence...

Prof Barker wrote a few lines about the pre-Cataclysm Nlüss in Blue Room post #568:

"Absolutely. The N'luss were a genetic offshoot of the rather homogeneous human race before the Catastrophe. They seem to have been wanderers with few fixed bases. They traded rare metals and industrial technology to a variety of races within Humanspace -- and even beyond it occasionally. They maintained an attitude of aloof pride, which annoyed their other human counterparts, and which occasionally got them killed. They appear to have had little or no interest in ruling star empires, and were happiest when "questing.””

and this in post #753:

"It does look likely that the N'luss were"engineered" for size and strength, but this does not necessarily mean thatthey were direct descendants of any particular Terran group -- after all, millennia passed between our own time and any possible starting date forthe N'luss,

N'luss legend states that they came from a "homeland" in the Plain of Towers, and that they served as guards and soldiers in the armies of Lords Vimuhla and Chiteng on Dormoron Plain. From this, comes the origin of the Dragon Warriors, whom the N'luss proudly call "our fathers."

They may well have been some sort of special military unit landed onTekumel before the Time of Darkness. They have maintained their pride and their physical prowess ever since."

It was posted in a Tekumel chat group, not my words. I thought it fit in with Dulahan's question...

Enjoy,

H:0)


Mighty  Hrugga,

I'd forgotten about these posts. Nice find.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on January 21, 2017, 04:11:59 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;941796
Uncle,

A quick question...I'm not sure if we ever touched on this. Did you ever encounter any non-human undead(inimical or not)?

Thanks,

H:0)

I seem to recall Phil talking about this on the Blue Room site. I believe it involved the breeding vats employed by the Lord's of the Latter Times.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 22, 2017, 10:25:25 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;941759
Uncle,

Excellent!!! Thank you!!!

H:0)


You're welcome! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 22, 2017, 10:32:05 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;941763
Uncle,

You are a Gentleman and a Scholar...Thank you for the continuing education.

H:0)


You're welcome! The family wanted my commentary on what they were seeing, so I was explaining all of the nuances of uniforms and units for them. Seeing the Corps march past gave me the chills - the ghosts walked. I've had several similar moments, over the years...

Go to YouTube and watch the Mormon Tabernacle Choir's performance of "Carol To The King". It's an old French marching tune, dating back to the time of Henry IV, and the fifes and drums put me in mind of some gentlemen that his son Louis XIII hired - a group of ruffians known as The King's Musketeers.

Or the Irish group that did the album "Halfpenny Bridge"; for one of the cuts they play an old marching tune of the Wild Geese; all I could think of was the Dillons coming out of the mist to settle old scores with my Scots ancestors at last.

As I say; the ghosts walked.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 22, 2017, 10:37:34 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;941766
The pleasure of picking miniatures for family members, then?

Great!

The wrong parts of Shanghai in the 30ies...a place where some Fairbairn guy has been known to stroll? That gives me an idea.

I'm taking you up on this! Do you want me to roll a PC, or would you just tell me who it is I'm playing?

Just as everywhere.
Of course, your contacts might make you a target, by themselves - if you're seen as a "soft target" for the kind of people that don't like your contacts.

When you put it like this...:D
I suddenly want to know how the Virginian State TV commented this picture;).

1. Yes. She picked Dark Sword DSM-1151 for her sister, and DSM-4110 for herself.

2. We try... :)

3. Let me think about this, and we'll see about running this... :)

4. You have it exactly! :) And I have one of his products, too.

5. Again, exactly! :)

6. So would I!!! :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 22, 2017, 10:40:05 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;941796
Uncle,

A quick question...I'm not sure if we ever touched on this. Did you ever encounter any non-human undead(inimical or not)?

Thanks,

H:0)

Oh, yes! Lots and lots of them, right out of the list in EPT. Never saw any Ssu, Hlyss, Mihalli, Hlutrgu, Nyagga or Mihalli as Undead, though; didn't see any of the 'friendly races', either. It was all ex-human or artificial stock.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 22, 2017, 10:41:12 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;941805
I came across this today by coincidence...

Prof Barker wrote a few lines about the pre-Cataclysm Nlüss in Blue Room post #568:

"Absolutely. The N'luss were a genetic offshoot of the rather homogeneous human race before the Catastrophe. They seem to have been wanderers with few fixed bases. They traded rare metals and industrial technology to a variety of races within Humanspace -- and even beyond it occasionally. They maintained an attitude of aloof pride, which annoyed their other human counterparts, and which occasionally got them killed. They appear to have had little or no interest in ruling star empires, and were happiest when "questing.””

and this in post #753:

"It does look likely that the N'luss were"engineered" for size and strength, but this does not necessarily mean thatthey were direct descendants of any particular Terran group -- after all, millennia passed between our own time and any possible starting date forthe N'luss,

N'luss legend states that they came from a "homeland" in the Plain of Towers, and that they served as guards and soldiers in the armies of Lords Vimuhla and Chiteng on Dormoron Plain. From this, comes the origin of the Dragon Warriors, whom the N'luss proudly call "our fathers."

They may well have been some sort of special military unit landed onTekumel before the Time of Darkness. They have maintained their pride and their physical prowess ever since."

It was posted in a Tekumel chat group, not my words. I thought it fit in with Dulahan's question...

Enjoy,

H:0)

Yep; they're having a discussion over on the Yahoo Tekumel Miniatures Group about playing '60k', and where to get miniatures.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 22, 2017, 10:41:54 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;941814
I seem to recall Phil talking about this on the Blue Room site. I believe it involved the breeding vats employed by the Lord's of the Latter Times.

Shemek.

Yep; see also "Lords of Tsamra".
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: d(sqrt(-1)) on January 22, 2017, 10:56:46 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;941752
Yes. The winners write the histories.

You got it. :)


Ok, that's always nice to know! Is there any more background info on this sort of thing? I know it must be tied up with the secrets of Tekumel, I wonder how much is out there.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 22, 2017, 11:10:51 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;941941
1. Yes. She picked Dark Sword DSM-1151 for her sister, and DSM-4110 for herself.
Cool choices!

Quote
2. We try... :)
Good job so far.

Quote
Let me think about this, and we'll see about running this... :)
I see three options...
In this thread. (Better not, this thread is for lore).
Starting a thread in the Play-by-Post sub-forum (http://www.therpgsite.com/forumdisplay.php?26-Play-by-Post-Games) on this site. Something like "IC: Walking around in Jakalla's Foreigners Quarter" (or whatever title you like).
Starting a game on Myth Weavers (http://www.myth-weavers.com/) or similar. (Best option in my book, but I just like the interface of Myth Weavers and having an in-built diceroller, if you need it).

I recommend option two as simplest, or option three if you think of a more long-term activity.

Quote
You have it exactly! :) And I have one of his products, too.
The F/S, the smatchet, or something else;)? I only have some of his works.

Quote
5. Again, exactly! :)
Glad I'm getting it right.

Quote
6. So would I!!! :eek:
It seems to have been a major topic on Virginian TV stations. Curiously, little has been said about the connection you mentioned.
Then again, it seems that's not the first time VMI cadets march in an inauguration (not sure how close they passed to the president of the USA on the other occasions).

http://wsls.com/2017/01/18/vmi-cadets-prepare-to-march-at-donald-trumps-inauguration/
http://www.vmi.edu/news/headlines/2016-2017/corps-to-march-in-presidential-inaugural.php
http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/34305490/watch-live-trump-to-take-oath-of-office

Also, I feel a note of support for Trump in the tone of the reports that's largely missing from the bigger chains. Curious, that.
Or maybe not, since I tend to joke that "Trump is the most Southern president the USA have had in a long while, despite living in NYC";).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 22, 2017, 11:10:59 AM
Thanks once more!  

Here's another on the deeper side of things.  I noticed at one point there was mention of Pavar's Gods "warring with the lords of Humanspace" or something to that effect.  That makes me ask, does that mean the Pariah Gods are said Lords?  As obviously the Humanspace sorts are actually powerful enough to war with Gods it seems.  That's impressive.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 22, 2017, 08:05:26 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;941946
Yep; they're having a discussion over on the Yahoo Tekumel Miniatures Group about playing '60k', and where to get miniatures.


I love the photos...Really nice!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 23, 2017, 05:24:22 PM
From AsenRG:
Cool choices!

Thank you, she says. :)

Good job so far.

Well, I do hope so; I worry about being boring...

I see three options...
In this thread. (Better not, this thread is for lore).
Starting a thread in the Play-by-Post sub-forum (http://www.therpgsite.com/forumdisplay.php?26-Play-by-Post-Games) on this site. Something like "IC: Walking around in Jakalla's Foreigners Quarter" (or whatever title you like).
Starting a game on Myth Weavers (http://www.myth-weavers.com/) or similar. (Best option in my book, but I just like the interface of Myth Weavers and having an in-built diceroller, if you need it).

I recommend option two as simplest, or option three if you think of a more long-term activity.


Let me see what happens after we get the Internet service upgrade for our college student done; thing would be a lot easier...

The F/S, the smatchet, or something else;)? I only have some of his works.

The classic F/S. Honed to a fine edge, too, if I do say so myself.

Glad I'm getting it right.

You are, which is why I'm here; you're doing just fine.

It seems to have been a major topic on Virginian TV stations. Curiously, little has been said about the connection you mentioned.
Then again, it seems that's not the first time VMI cadets march in an inauguration (not sure how close they passed to the president of the USA on the other occasions).


It's not, and I think that most of the locals wouldn't know the history - history is a subject not really taught in our schools, and is a concept largely forgotten in this country.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 23, 2017, 05:26:59 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;941951
Thanks once more!  

Here's another on the deeper side of things.  I noticed at one point there was mention of Pavar's Gods "warring with the lords of Humanspace" or something to that effect.  That makes me ask, does that mean the Pariah Gods are said Lords?  As obviously the Humanspace sorts are actually powerful enough to war with Gods it seems.  That's impressive.

Keep in mind that 'the Gods' are not, in Phil's setting, divine beings; they are simply more advanced beings with their own objectives. Think Boskone and Arisia, and I'm not talking about Boston-area SF conventions... :)

Or go back a decade or so earlier, and contemplate a young F/SF fan reading Howard and Lovecraft in the new magazines... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 23, 2017, 05:27:33 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;942025
I love the photos...Really nice!!!

H:0)

Same here! I have some of them, and they paint up wonderfully well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 24, 2017, 02:41:49 PM
I know there was mention of some sort of open house thing to learn and see early Tekumel, I'd certainly be interested in that at some point if it happens - nerding out like a 35 year old kid in a candy store for sure, but hey, I enjoy my nerddoms!  Especially since the Cities aren't too far away for me, being from Fargo.

Semi-related, any comments on the Con of the North and its Tekumel Track?  I've never gone to said con, but knowing about said track has me interested.


As it stands, the interest in the game I'm prepping to run has been pretty huge.  I sent out invites to a bunch of old gamer contacts, and didn't expect everyone to say yes!  So going from what I was expecting to be a simple 4 person group and I to potentially 8 or 9?  Let's just say I'm glad Bethorm isn't that complicated a system - I've successfully run for 10 people in an L5R game in the past, so it could definitely happen.  Though we'll see how it shapes up with the meetup to hammer out details of when and where, easily possible some of them won't be able to commit at that point.  Either way, this thread is getting me more jazzed to run the game, and feeling more confident in doing so.  So big thank you for yet another reason!

Finally, it's also a shame how quickly the pictures disappear!  I am quite curious about pictures of the armor (especially your wife's temple guard armor since one of the posts with Chirine's did show!), but there's plenty of other pictures of various minis that aren't about spattered throughout this massive thread too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 24, 2017, 06:05:09 PM
From Dulahan:
I know there was mention of some sort of open house thing to learn and see early Tekumel, I'd certainly be interested in that at some point if it happens - nerding out like a 35 year old kid in a candy store for sure, but hey, I enjoy my nerddoms!  Especially since the Cities aren't too far away for me, being from Fargo.

Well, the idea is that we could host people for a weekend's worth of gaming and fun some weekend. There are a number of 'micro-cons' that exist; we had one a few years back here at the house, when we had a house full of guests over a very fun weekend. My wonderful Missus has said she'd be happy to have something like this happen - once we get Fifth Daughter unpacked, of course! :) The game room and lounge are always set up to receive visitors; the Missus has allowed me to have half her basement for these, and an additional quarter of the basement for the actual 'Chirine's Workbench'. My home office would also be open, as would the kitchen for light refreshments.

We have a small motel a couple of blocks away, and more lodging south of the airport - we live just north of the main airport, and the infamous Mall of America is about fifteen minutes away. So, plenty of places to stay, and things for the non-gamers in the family to do. Shuttles to and from the airport as needed.

What we are doing is leaving it up to folks to figure out what time frame they'd like to do this in, and a possible weekend to do it. I need about thirty days advance notice to get any time off of work, so that's a factor. Talk amongst yourselves, pick a date, and let me know. :) The Missus can put the kettle on, or do iced teas, depending on the season.

Serously; work some thing out, folks,  and we'll host it.
 
Semi-related, any comments on the Con of the North and its Tekumel Track?  I've never gone to said con, but knowing about said track has me interested.


Brett Slocum runs this each year, and I think he does a very good job of organizing it and getting good GMs to run good games. I do not run games at the convention, due to the sheer size of the tables that my games use - 60" x 60" up to 60" x 120" - and the logistics of miniatures games, but Brett has been thinking about asking for more space from the convention organizers. So, we'll see. I will be there this year, all weekend, as I'm supplying the Skyline display and laptop that Bill Hoyt is using for his 'History of RPGs in the Twin Cities" display in the lobby. If you do wind up coming to the con, drop by and we can run off to the house so you can see what all the fuss is about. One of the big problems with my doing convention shows is the sheer volume of what I have; I have a cargo van (an Astro) with 64 cubic feet, and I can fill it up completely with game stuff for a show...

As it stands, the interest in the game I'm prepping to run has been pretty huge.  I sent out invites to a bunch of old gamer contacts, and didn't expect everyone to say yes!  So going from what I was expecting to be a simple 4 person group and I to potentially 8 or 9?  Let's just say I'm glad Bethorm isn't that complicated a system - I've successfully run for 10 people in an L5R game in the past, so it could definitely happen.  Though we'll see how it shapes up with the meetup to hammer out details of when and where, easily possible some of them won't be able to commit at that point.  Either way, this thread is getting me more jazzed to run the game, and feeling more confident in doing so.  So big thank you for yet another reason!

How wonderful! Let me know if you need any help! :)

Finally, it's also a shame how quickly the pictures disappear!  I am quite curious about pictures of the armor (especially your wife's temple guard armor since one of the posts with Chirine's did show!), but there's plenty of other pictures of various minis that aren't about spattered throughout this massive thread too.

Do you mean the pictures I've posted on this thread? I didn't know that they went away after a while. If there's anything in particular that you're looking for, ask and I can see about reposting them, or you could look at my other photos on my Photobucket page - the link is in my signature block.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 25, 2017, 09:45:01 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;942422
Well, the idea is that we could host people for a weekend's worth of gaming and fun some weekend. There are a number of 'micro-cons' that exist; we had one a few years back here at the house, when we had a house full of guests over a very fun weekend. My wonderful Missus has said she'd be happy to have something like this happen - once we get Fifth Daughter unpacked, of course! :) The game room and lounge are always set up to receive visitors; the Missus has allowed me to have half her basement for these, and an additional quarter of the basement for the actual 'Chirine's Workbench'. My home office would also be open, as would the kitchen for light refreshments.

We have a small motel a couple of blocks away, and more lodging south of the airport - we live just north of the main airport, and the infamous Mall of America is about fifteen minutes away. So, plenty of places to stay, and things for the non-gamers in the family to do. Shuttles to and from the airport as needed.

What we are doing is leaving it up to folks to figure out what time frame they'd like to do this in, and a possible weekend to do it. I need about thirty days advance notice to get any time off of work, so that's a factor. Talk amongst yourselves, pick a date, and let me know. :) The Missus can put the kettle on, or do iced teas, depending on the season.

Serously; work some thing out, folks,  and we'll host it.

Yep, I'm definitely down with this if we can make it happen.  That sounds like a wonderful experience.  and I'm pretty free as well, I live a sadly uneventful life, so 30 days notice should be no problem, throw some days people!  As long as it's not Gen Con, this is an easy one for me.  The Twin Cities are only a 3 hour drive or so for me, so I'm not even that worried about needing time off.

Quote
Brett Slocum runs this each year, ... So, we'll see. I will be there this year, all weekend, as I'm supplying the Skyline display and laptop that Bill Hoyt is using for his 'History of RPGs in the Twin Cities" display in the lobby. If you do wind up coming to the con, drop by and we can run off to the house so you can see what all the fuss is about. One of the big problems with my doing convention shows is the sheer volume of what I have; I have a cargo van (an Astro) with 64 cubic feet, and I can fill it up completely with game stuff for a show...

Excellent, thank you.  I'm starting to seriously consider it, as long as I can finangle roommates and make sure the time off situation for Friday will work out with other planned excursions, but between a good Tekumel track and now this, I'm leaning towards doing what I can.  The history of RPGs in the Twin Cities thing sounds pretty fascinating as well.   And that's an impressive amount of con gaming stuff, no lie!  

Quote

How wonderful! Let me know if you need any help! :)

This one I'll absolutely be taking you up on once things get in gear.  Even if just some posts to this thread for ideas of some plot seeds to plant once I know what they'll be.  So far I know one of them has interest in being a character who would be a specialist in Engsalyvani history, thankfully he's one of the ones already diving into the lore for fun, so he'll definitely be reading the PDF of such.  He's currently waffling between Thumis or Ksarul (or a cohort of them), and will certainly be a priest.  Either way, this one certainly gives me some plot seeds to work with.  So I approve!

Quote

Do you mean the pictures I've posted on this thread? I didn't know that they went away after a while. If there's anything in particular that you're looking for, ask and I can see about reposting them, or you could look at my other photos on my Photobucket page - the link is in my signature block.

Yeah, either that or conversation was based on things recently added to the photobucket.  I hadn't gotten to the blog or photos yet, pretty much because of this thread (I grow closer to the end!). I took a glance after seeing this post though, and saw the armor picture I was curious about.


Finally! Onto another question:

In the Ucon Conversations book, there was a point the Professor was talking about an Empire or Kingdom on the Southern Continent that used a weird magic system involving groups that each have a specific role.  Something really different from the way the Five Empires do it.  Did you, perchance, ever visit this place?  Any any more you could elucidate about it?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 25, 2017, 05:22:22 PM
A couple other things that have come up today.  Noticed you talking about Gaming Cons in striking distance.  don't forget Fargo!  We've got Core Con and Valley Con, the former of which at least is definitely in the same size range as many of those you mention.  Really nerdy, gamer heavy city here with all the colleges and the tech industry booming like it is.  Great place to intro impressionable gamers to a glorious setting (as I am looking to do - even if my potential players are all... whatever we want to call 30 and 40 something gamers)  Plus we're a few hours closer than a few others. ;)

Though more importantly, as I've hit the 4100s of this thread reading marathon, I notice mention of Luttwak's Grand Strategy of the Roman Empire!  Excellent book!  In can people weren't aware, he's got one for the Eastern Roman Empire, aka, Byzantines (Grand Strategy of the Byzantine Empire) which is probably equally, if not more useful for Tekumel too.

EDIT: And like 3 posts further into the thread after I posted this, talk of the Byzantine one comes up.

I will add this, it was highly regarded stuff by my professors in the department of Central Eurasian Studies at Indiana University.  So much so they were both pointed out to me for uses in talking about the Mongols and their interactions with China.  Mostly as a good means of extrapolating Defense in Depth and the likes out of them, but fascinating texts all the same.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 25, 2017, 05:42:31 PM
From Dulahan:
Yep, I'm definitely down with this if we can make it happen.  That sounds like a wonderful experience.  and I'm pretty free as well, I live a sadly uneventful life, so 30 days notice should be no problem, throw some days people!  As long as it's not Gen Con, this is an easy one for me.  The Twin Cities are only a 3 hour drive or so for me, so I'm not even that worried about needing time off.

We had a lot of fun the last time we did this, and really enjoyed having a house full of people for the weekend. Due to Fifth Daughter now living with us, we can't provide overnight berths, but we can provide for a weekend of fun. The Missus even suggested moving the big LCD TV up to the living room from the game room, so as to be able to show some of Phil's favorite movies while games are being run in the basement. It was also suggested that since we have one of those lawn tent / gazebo things, we could also run things in the back yard if the weather was nice. So, if people are interested... :)

Excellent, thank you.  I'm starting to seriously consider it, as long as I can finangle roommates and make sure the time off situation for Friday will work out with other planned excursions, but between a good Tekumel track and now this, I'm leaning towards doing what I can.  The history of RPGs in the Twin Cities thing sounds pretty fascinating as well.   And that's an impressive amount of con gaming stuff, no lie!  

You're welcome! Brett puts on a good show, and has some very good events. I think you can go to the Con of the North website to see them.

I have a lot of 'game packages' of games that I can run 'from inventory'. I've been at this hobby for a very long time, and it was the tradition / 'custome of the house' that the GM / referee provided the terrain and scenery for games - and quite often the figures, as well. Very early on, I learned the dire lession that I needed to have everything required for a particular game, and not rely on folks to bring things with them to an event. So, I provide the tables, the terrain, the scenery, the miniatures, the rules, the dice, the tape measures or rulers, templates, markers, and everything else for my games. It does add up, in terms of sheer volume of cubic feet, but I do think it makes for fun and good-looking games. Have a look at the game pictures I've put up, and you'll see what larks I get up to.

And we've spent the money and time to make sure that it's all very portable. I can go from zero to start on the game table in fifteen minutes, including bringing in stuff from the shed. I'm kinda proud of that, if I may sa so.

This one I'll absolutely be taking you up on once things get in gear.  Even if just some posts to this thread for ideas of some plot seeds to plant once I know what they'll be.  So far I know one of them has interest in being a character who would be a specialist in Engsalyvani history, thankfully he's one of the ones already diving into the lore for fun, so he'll definitely be reading the PDF of such.  He's currently waffling between Thumis or Ksarul (or a cohort of them), and will certainly be a priest.  Either way, this one certainly gives me some plot seeds to work with.  So I approve!

Either one will be fun; go with whatever works for the party. And ask away! It's what I'm here for! :)

Yeah, either that or conversation was based on things recently added to the photobucket.  I hadn't gotten to the blog or photos yet, pretty much because of this thread (I grow closer to the end!). I took a glance after seeing this post though, and saw the armor picture I was curious about.

Oh! Cool! Look in the 'game lounge' album; I think that's where the bulk of the costume photos are.


Finally! Onto another question:

In the Ucon Conversations book, there was a point the Professor was talking about an Empire or Kingdom on the Southern Continent that used a weird magic system involving groups that each have a specific role.  Something really different from the way the Five Empires do it.  Did you, perchance, ever visit this place?  Any any more you could elucidate about it?


Yes, we dropped in there, on one of our little jaunts down south. You want to look at the article that Al wrote:

http://www.tekumel.com/gaming_advOC.html (http://www.tekumel.com/gaming_advOC.html)

Very, very different then the cultures of the Five Empires, and an example of just how diverse and varied Tekumel is as a world setting.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 25, 2017, 09:14:15 PM
Wonderful!

And here's a Geopolitical situation.  What is the likely response to the Ssu starting to overwhelm Pechano (Let's hope not!  I do like that place!) - if things were going bad enough, would Salarvyana, Yan Kor, or the Seal Imperium send troops to help stem the tide?  Or all of the above?  Would a big inimical threat be enough to lead to a form of temporary truce?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 26, 2017, 02:47:31 AM
And if it does, would it make the matters worse?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 26, 2017, 03:35:42 PM
Where I'm up to now in the thread, there's been a lot of talk about revivitalizing Tekumel and drawing in new blood.  And I really did want to give my own thoughts based on my own initial barriers, from the point of view of a later convert (2003-4ish - gaming since I was 10 or so in 1992) - not as a "one true way" solution, and definitely NOT a "do it chirine!" mind you, but just as a brain dump of thoughts knowing it's unlikely to ever officially happen:

I'll fully admit I'm a setting nerd.  I dive into settings for fun, way more RPG books than I'll ever play because I enjoy reading fictional histories and cultures.  So that definitely colors my ideas.  But I also know there's a lot of gamers like me, and they're prime targets for Tekumel.

I'm not going to go in depth about what game rules would work.  Frankly?  I don't think rules is really the issue.   Instead, I look to it as a setting and at all the barriers to learning about it, and most aren't the setting at all - us setting nerds are not afraid of funny words or lengthy reading lists, that's often the selling point! I was lucky back in late 2003  when I really started discovering it I could still get a lot of stuff from Titas (And honestly?  Even back then I was concerned about shopping there, with no online storefront just email correspondance, thankfully he's an honest guy so it wasn't an issue, but I definitely hesitated for months before my first order), so I have many of the things that were published.  Most people weren't.

For instance, when the Sourcebook got reprinted on Drivethru, there was actually a lot of buzz in Web circles I frequent about it.  Until it was pointed out it was just a scan of the old version with super tiny font and hand drawn accent marks (and now that I know the story of that, it's even more sad!), which we could see on the Drivethru preview and then bam!  Suddenly all sorts of people were going "Well, fuck that, my eyes can't take a small font" - and I do think it's probably a bit small for easy reading, especially on a tablet or phone. So, more lost sales.  :(

So us setting nerds were still without an easy way to get Tekumel.  Barriers.  Availability, the format of what's out there, not knowing what to start with (The most common Tekumel thread I see on message boards is "where to start?").  so yeah, I think 'where to start' is the big one to address.

My view is a great, modern first step would be some form of a Quickstart Guide to Tekumel.  A free "preview" sort of thing, 10-20 or so (depending on amount of art) pages of Setting and advice on why it's not so scary as it might appear.  Wet the appetite, give people an idea of the wonder they'll get (not to mention something to hand to players).  As awesome as it is, we don't need a large chunk on the history, don't overwhelm in any point.  Again, wet the appetite, make sure people know there was something.   If not for the cost of color art and printing, I'd even suggest pushing to make it a Free RPG Day handout, but that's probably out of the question unless done as a kickstarter or stretch goal for such.   Though even an online file would be wonderful.

Maybe an outline something like:

1 page on history up to the Seal Imperium.  Just enough to know these periods exist and had an effect on latter history, plus that there's more info out there.  Focus on why each period was important, and give something to tickle interests.  "Before - Distant future, terraformed, original inhabitants pushed aside, Humanspace lords big dicks"  "Egsvan hla Ganga - Religion formalized."  Etc.

1-2 Pages on religion - again, not much, basics of Pavar, names of the gods and cohorts, basics of their purviews, and I mean BASICS.  This is the one place I'm not sure 1 page is enough, and could spill over - and that online because of listing out 20 gods and their domains (Sidebar?).

1 page or less on Modern History and situation.  

1 page on the rest of the 5 Empires AND the world.  this may or may not be combined with the above.

1 page on society, clans, etc.

And the rest of "How you can find ADVENTURE!"  More advice focused, talk about influences like Barsoom and Sword and Sandals stuff.  So like, this thread.  Also, modern references.  I keep seeing someone (was it Greentongue?) talking about anime being a good way to try and do Tekumel, and you know what?  He's not wrong.  There's no perfect anime to point to, HOWEVER, most anime fans are conciously or not already familiar with "Us" societies, and even how Heroes work therein.  That's just a huge theme of so many Shounen stories like Bleach and Naruto.  So honestly, just making those connections blatant would make the mindset a lot easier for people to grasp.  They're also used to the concept of "enemy one day, ally the next."

I probably wouldn't even talk much about the non-human races, except mentioning the Ssu and Hlyss were the world's original inhabitants in the history.  Otherwise? A page or two with a drawing of the "non humans you might encounter in the Imperium" and a short vignette about each.  "A Mighty Shen!"  "The Clever Tinalyia" "The diabolical Hlutgru" or whatever.  Just a picture so you know what they look like and that.  Again, appetite?  Wet.

Oh, and at the start should be a pronunciation guide with the very straight up advice "It is pronounced exactly like it looks, don't be initmidated!  Nor worry about getting it wrong."

Finally, and importantly, conclude with where to go for more information on the world or Rules to play yourself, cite Bethorm, Empire of the Petal Throne, the Sourcebook, Mitlanyal, the language guides, and other things on Drive Thru/RPGnow.  And possibly have something about "stay tuned for a kickstart of an updated Sourcebook"  (Yeah, I think a new layout, some color art, and the likes done through kickstart would be the way to go).  BAM!  A starting point, complete with guidance of where to go next based on what caught your interest and your gaming style preferences.

Maybe have a cute cover of an Ahoggya in a graduation cap looking all Scholarly in front of a chalk board.  "You too can Tekumel!"  :D (With the latter written on the board in English AND Tsolyani).  Or not, and something more Epic.

A shame one of those other barriers would see this approach as being wrong.  

So to bring this back around, I'm curious about a good way to get this rough effect for the incoming players I'm getting for my own game.  The better and quicker the intro for them, the better for all!  Because this is exactly what I'd love to have for my game.  Because ultimately, you're all right.  This isn't a hard game or setting to grasp!  It's just getting it out there.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on January 26, 2017, 06:27:33 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;942705
So us setting nerds were still without an easy way to get Tekumel.  Barriers.  Availability, the format of what's out there, not knowing what to start with (The most common Tekumel thread I see on message boards is "where to start?").  so yeah, I think 'where to start' is the big one to address.

This is useful ... You, too, CAN run Empire of the Petal Throne (http://odd74.proboards.com/thread/6117/run-empire-petal-throne)
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 26, 2017, 06:37:36 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;942577
A couple other things that have come up today.  Noticed you talking about Gaming Cons in striking distance.  don't forget Fargo!  We've got Core Con and Valley Con, the former of which at least is definitely in the same size range as many of those you mention.  Really nerdy, gamer heavy city here with all the colleges and the tech industry booming like it is.  Great place to intro impressionable gamers to a glorious setting (as I am looking to do - even if my potential players are all... whatever we want to call 30 and 40 something gamers)  Plus we're a few hours closer than a few others. ;)


I'm sorry I missed this, last night; we were out the door on the way to my annual check-up. I am officially still alive, and in very good health, considering.

I have broken this into two replies, as we're covering two different subjects.

Doing conventions is difficult for us; my pills cost me about $75 a quarter to keep me alive, and - not to horrify - the Missus is a cancer survivor. (It's been three years, and we had a very bad scare over Christmas with her.) We simply do not have the money to fund a lot of convention trips; if the con is six hours or less driving time away, we can usually afford the gas, but sleeping rooms and sometimes food for the weekend is out of our reach. Yes, we do have savings, but medical bills - the co-pays, actually - can pile up fast. So, we're limited there, and I also have to be very careful with my limited reserves of energy and stamina.  I can either organize a convention trip, with all the attendant logistics, or run the games at the convention. I simply can't do both, we've found.

Now, having said that, exchanging e-mails to set an event up, and the actual loading the van is pretty easy for me; I've done an 'events guide' for people to use as a sort of 'menu' for setting up an event, and I keep everything pre-packed and ready to load - I have to load into the basement anyway, so it's simply a matter of driving time. Basically, the event organizer(s) select the games that they'd like to see me run at their event, I get the time off of work - I have absurd amounts of paid vacation time built up - and load the games and drive to the con. The organizers provide me a place to sleep (and a working bathroom, please) and some food would be nice. It is just that easy.

And I do follow the advice of an ex-Royal Navy veteran about conventions; send the details in writing, and we're good. Make sure that you, the event organizer,  have all your ducks in a row and we'll be fine. Don't have the sleeping space, and I won't work for you again. I'll be there for the event, but don't tell me when I get there that you can't hold up your end of the deal; I've had too many surprises like this in my career.

(The RN vet? A guy named Jon Pertwee, who went on to an acting career. He was at an East Coast USA convention when they told him they didn't have his return fare, so he sold off all his possessions in the hotel lobby on Sunday.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 26, 2017, 06:41:03 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;942577
Though more importantly, as I've hit the 4100s of this thread reading marathon, I notice mention of Luttwak's Grand Strategy of the Roman Empire!  Excellent book!  In can people weren't aware, he's got one for the Eastern Roman Empire, aka, Byzantines (Grand Strategy of the Byzantine Empire) which is probably equally, if not more useful for Tekumel too.

EDIT: And like 3 posts further into the thread after I posted this, talk of the Byzantine one comes up.

I will add this, it was highly regarded stuff by my professors in the department of Central Eurasian Studies at Indiana University.  So much so they were both pointed out to me for uses in talking about the Mongols and their interactions with China.  Mostly as a good means of extrapolating Defense in Depth and the likes out of them, but fascinating texts all the same.

Phil introduced me to Luttwak's book on the Romans; I had read the one on coups in high school. I found the two on grand strategy fascinating, and it really helped me understand Phil's understanding of the policies of the Five Empires. I've used them in both Phil's campaign and my own; Phil was a little grumpy, it being a case of the biter bit... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 26, 2017, 06:45:01 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;942705
Where I'm up to now in the thread, there's been a lot of talk about revivitalizing Tekumel and drawing in new blood.  And I really did want to give my own thoughts based on my own initial barriers, from the point of view of a later convert (2003-4ish - gaming since I was 10 or so in 1992) - not as a "one true way" solution, and definitely NOT a "do it chirine!" mind you, but just as a brain dump of thoughts knowing it's unlikely to ever officially happen:

I'll fully admit I'm a setting nerd.  I dive into settings for fun, way more RPG books than I'll ever play because I enjoy reading fictional histories and cultures.  So that definitely colors my ideas.  But I also know there's a lot of gamers like me, and they're prime targets for Tekumel.

[snipped, if that's all right]

A shame one of those other barriers would see this approach as being wrong.  

So to bring this back around, I'm curious about a good way to get this rough effect for the incoming players I'm getting for my own game.  The better and quicker the intro for them, the better for all!  Because this is exactly what I'd love to have for my game.  Because ultimately, you're all right.  This isn't a hard game or setting to grasp!  It's just getting it out there.

Agreed. What you are saying is what I've been saying for the past forty years, and I'm still saying. Tekumel can be run by anyone, and not just by somebody like me. I can give you all sorts of local color, like I am doing in this thread, but anybody can run a good solid Tekumel game or campaign with the most basic resources.

Which is why I do my blog, and reply to questions in this thread. It's what I believe in, and have been trying to do for a very long time.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 26, 2017, 06:46:20 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;942729
This is useful ... You, too, CAN run Empire of the Petal Throne (http://odd74.proboards.com/thread/6117/run-empire-petal-throne)
=

Agreed; it's a good article, actually.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 26, 2017, 06:48:50 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;942604
Wonderful!

And here's a Geopolitical situation.  What is the likely response to the Ssu starting to overwhelm Pechano (Let's hope not!  I do like that place!) - if things were going bad enough, would Salarvyana, Yan Kor, or the Seal Imperium send troops to help stem the tide?  Or all of the above?  Would a big inimical threat be enough to lead to a form of temporary truce?

They probably would; they've done so in the past, which is how I got out there.

Not really; the local commanders of the troop detachments would work something out, and forget to mention it to the central governments - which would keep right on bickering with each other, as this would be more of a minor theater of operations for all of them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 26, 2017, 06:51:13 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;942635
And if it does, would it make the matters worse?

Don't know; I doubt that the larger states would come to any agreements over this, but simply send troops to bolster the locals and gain diplomatic points with them. I'd expect that a lot of hired mercenaries would get used, rather then regular troops.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 26, 2017, 09:47:36 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;942737
They probably would; they've done so in the past, which is how I got out there.

Not really; the local commanders of the troop detachments would work something out, and forget to mention it to the central governments - which would keep right on bickering with each other, as this would be more of a minor theater of operations for all of them.

Interesting, so more a case of the Pechani sending messages to neighboring governors and such to please send help ASAP and hope for the  best?

For that matter, I notice the mention of Mercenaries in response to AsenRG's post.  How common are mercenary units?  And how large would they typically be?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 27, 2017, 02:57:35 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;942739
Don't know; I doubt that the larger states would come to any agreements over this, but simply send troops to bolster the locals and gain diplomatic points with them. I'd expect that a lot of hired mercenaries would get used, rather then regular troops.


What I was hinting at was, would there be a state after the larger states send in their troops to deal with something the locals can't deal with themselves:)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 27, 2017, 09:59:12 AM
This goes out to Chirine AND The Glorious General, as I am curious about both their answers to these about their time in the Thursday Night Group!

What would you say your favorite 'surprise' was?  Either like, the biggest Matrix "Whoa!" moment, or perhaps the moment that left you feeling the biggest sense of wonder and awe?


In a similar vein, what was the funniest moment?  


Finally in this round:  Any particular favorite recurring NPCs you loved to see return?  (Even if loved to hate ;)  Because I fully know those can end up some of the most fun!  Like the smack talking tank with an AC2 in a Battletech game I ran, kept getting away from the PCs.  They hated that little shit, weak weapon, but always annoying.  The day they blew that thing up they were calling the player who had to drop the game, and he too joined in the celebration!)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on January 27, 2017, 03:13:26 PM
Hello everybody,

Although I visit often, it's been a while since I posted anything here.

I just wanted to mention (for the ones who are not part of the Tekumel Discussion Group) that I just uploaded a vectorized version of the Seal of the Emperor to that forum. The vector itself is not perfect yet, but the heavy tracing work is done. Just install Inkscape on your computer, download the file, and start improving it or start adding colors to it, etc. Useful if you need to create clean versions of the Seal for your games, in lo or hi-res, etc.

Hope you find it useful.

You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/tekumel/files/TEKUMEL_Tsolyanu_Seal_vector.svg
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 27, 2017, 06:11:55 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;942755
Interesting, so more a case of the Pechani sending messages to neighboring governors and such to please send help ASAP and hope for the  best?

For that matter, I notice the mention of Mercenaries in response to AsenRG's post.  How common are mercenary units?  And how large would they typically be?

Oh, probably; getting the next-door governor to help out is a lot easier then trying to persuade central governments to do anything. Local governors also have a lot more discretion in dealing with local threats - just don't start a war. So, I'd expect that the nearby Tsolyani governor would have a quiet word with the nearby Salarvyani governor, just to make sure that mistakes didn't happen and people didn't jump to the wrong conclusions.

Mercenary units can vary widely in size, from a dozen hired bravos working for a local patron to an entire legion paid by a central government. All of the Five Empires have this level of unit, and they tend to get used either for the kind of jobs that the central government does not want to use their own national troops for - this is especially for human soldiers - or as specialized troops (Like the Pe Choi and Pachi Lei in the Chakas, or Hlaka scounts) and shock troops (Shen, Ahoggya). Mercenaries are used a lot for reasons of 'deniability', where the central government doesn't want the other people in the area to get too upset at armed intervention. They are also occasionally treated as 'expendable', as Baron Ald found out.

Currently, my leaden alter ego and his little army are serving as mercenaries, under contract to the theocrats in the Nyemesel Isles. We provide the armored fist that the locals need to defend themselves. Two cohorts of heavies, two of mediums, one of archers, one of crossbows, and a mixed cohort of odds and ends of small mercenary groups of differing types - specialists, really - that are grouped together for administrative purposes.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 27, 2017, 06:12:53 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;942766
What I was hinting at was, would there be a state after the larger states send in their troops to deal with something the locals can't deal with themselves:)?

Yes; Pechano is just too useful as a 'buffer state' to try and take over. Nobody's got the logistic reach to do it, either.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 27, 2017, 06:22:36 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;942705
Where I'm up to now in the thread, there's been a lot of talk about revivitalizing Tekumel and drawing in new blood.  And I really did want to give my own thoughts based on my own initial barriers, from the point of view of a later convert (2003-4ish - gaming since I was 10 or so in 1992) - not as a "one true way" solution, and definitely NOT a "do it chirine!" mind you, but just as a brain dump of thoughts knowing it's unlikely to ever officially happen:

I'll fully admit I'm a setting nerd.  I dive into settings for fun, way more RPG books than I'll ever play because I enjoy reading fictional histories and cultures.  So that definitely colors my ideas.  But I also know there's a lot of gamers like me, and they're prime targets for Tekumel.

I'm not going to go in depth about what game rules would work.  Frankly?  I don't think rules is really the issue.   Instead, I look to it as a setting and at all the barriers to learning about it, and most aren't the setting at all - us setting nerds are not afraid of funny words or lengthy reading lists, that's often the selling point! I was lucky back in late 2003  when I really started discovering it I could still get a lot of stuff from Titas (And honestly?  Even back then I was concerned about shopping there, with no online storefront just email correspondance, thankfully he's an honest guy so it wasn't an issue, but I definitely hesitated for months before my first order), so I have many of the things that were published.  Most people weren't.

For instance, when the Sourcebook got reprinted on Drivethru, there was actually a lot of buzz in Web circles I frequent about it.  Until it was pointed out it was just a scan of the old version with super tiny font and hand drawn accent marks (and now that I know the story of that, it's even more sad!), which we could see on the Drivethru preview and then bam!  Suddenly all sorts of people were going "Well, fuck that, my eyes can't take a small font" - and I do think it's probably a bit small for easy reading, especially on a tablet or phone. So, more lost sales.  :(

So us setting nerds were still without an easy way to get Tekumel.  Barriers.  Availability, the format of what's out there, not knowing what to start with (The most common Tekumel thread I see on message boards is "where to start?").  so yeah, I think 'where to start' is the big one to address.

My view is a great, modern first step would be some form of a Quickstart Guide to Tekumel.  A free "preview" sort of thing, 10-20 or so (depending on amount of art) pages of Setting and advice on why it's not so scary as it might appear.  Wet the appetite, give people an idea of the wonder they'll get (not to mention something to hand to players).  As awesome as it is, we don't need a large chunk on the history, don't overwhelm in any point.  Again, wet the appetite, make sure people know there was something.   If not for the cost of color art and printing, I'd even suggest pushing to make it a Free RPG Day handout, but that's probably out of the question unless done as a kickstarter or stretch goal for such.   Though even an online file would be wonderful.

Maybe an outline something like:

1 page on history up to the Seal Imperium.  Just enough to know these periods exist and had an effect on latter history, plus that there's more info out there.  Focus on why each period was important, and give something to tickle interests.  "Before - Distant future, terraformed, original inhabitants pushed aside, Humanspace lords big dicks"  "Egsvan hla Ganga - Religion formalized."  Etc.

1-2 Pages on religion - again, not much, basics of Pavar, names of the gods and cohorts, basics of their purviews, and I mean BASICS.  This is the one place I'm not sure 1 page is enough, and could spill over - and that online because of listing out 20 gods and their domains (Sidebar?).

1 page or less on Modern History and situation.  

1 page on the rest of the 5 Empires AND the world.  this may or may not be combined with the above.

1 page on society, clans, etc.

And the rest of "How you can find ADVENTURE!"  More advice focused, talk about influences like Barsoom and Sword and Sandals stuff.  So like, this thread.  Also, modern references.  I keep seeing someone (was it Greentongue?) talking about anime being a good way to try and do Tekumel, and you know what?  He's not wrong.  There's no perfect anime to point to, HOWEVER, most anime fans are conciously or not already familiar with "Us" societies, and even how Heroes work therein.  That's just a huge theme of so many Shounen stories like Bleach and Naruto.  So honestly, just making those connections blatant would make the mindset a lot easier for people to grasp.  They're also used to the concept of "enemy one day, ally the next."

I probably wouldn't even talk much about the non-human races, except mentioning the Ssu and Hlyss were the world's original inhabitants in the history.  Otherwise? A page or two with a drawing of the "non humans you might encounter in the Imperium" and a short vignette about each.  "A Mighty Shen!"  "The Clever Tinalyia" "The diabolical Hlutgru" or whatever.  Just a picture so you know what they look like and that.  Again, appetite?  Wet.

Oh, and at the start should be a pronunciation guide with the very straight up advice "It is pronounced exactly like it looks, don't be initmidated!  Nor worry about getting it wrong."

Finally, and importantly, conclude with where to go for more information on the world or Rules to play yourself, cite Bethorm, Empire of the Petal Throne, the Sourcebook, Mitlanyal, the language guides, and other things on Drive Thru/RPGnow.  And possibly have something about "stay tuned for a kickstart of an updated Sourcebook"  (Yeah, I think a new layout, some color art, and the likes done through kickstart would be the way to go).  BAM!  A starting point, complete with guidance of where to go next based on what caught your interest and your gaming style preferences.

Maybe have a cute cover of an Ahoggya in a graduation cap looking all Scholarly in front of a chalk board.  "You too can Tekumel!"  :D (With the latter written on the board in English AND Tsolyani).  Or not, and something more Epic.

A shame one of those other barriers would see this approach as being wrong.  

So to bring this back around, I'm curious about a good way to get this rough effect for the incoming players I'm getting for my own game.  The better and quicker the intro for them, the better for all!  Because this is exactly what I'd love to have for my game.  Because ultimately, you're all right.  This isn't a hard game or setting to grasp!  It's just getting it out there.

First, allow me to be a big ol' meanine poo-poo head and point it it's "whet" the appetite, not "wet."  As in, to sharpen or hone to a fine edge.  You're welcome.:p

Second, I agree absolutely.  Remember, George Lucas introduced us to a whole universe with 93 words, including "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away."  People don't remember, or weren't there to remember, what it was like before the entire world knew what a Jedi Knight was, or what a lightsaber was, or an Imperial Star Destroyer, etc., etc.

Give 'em a taste, they'll be back for more.

"He gives the kids free samples
because he knows full well
that today's bright shiny faces
will be tomorrow's clientele."

-- Tom Lehrer, "The Old Dope Peddlar"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 27, 2017, 06:22:59 PM
From Dulahan:
This goes out to Chirine AND The Glorious General, as I am curious about both their answers to these about their time in the Thursday Night Group!

What would you say your favorite 'surprise' was?  Either like, the biggest Matrix "Whoa!" moment, or perhaps the moment that left you feeling the biggest sense of wonder and awe?


The very first night I gamed with Phil, where we were in the hall of the Petal Throne itself. Talk about diving in at the deep end!
The tubeway system.
The First Temple of Vimhula.
The Spaceport.
The South Pole base.
Kashi.
The action at Castle Tilketl.
Third Mar.
Marrying Si N'te.
The Affair of the Malchairan Emerald.
The Battle of Anch'ke.
The Horokaingai adventures.
And a lot more; I'm only up to 127,000 words... :)

In a similar vein, what was the funniest moment?
Turhshamu the Wizard. Always.
Captain Harchar. Always.
Si N'te marrying her husband off to her friends, so they'd have a place to stay.
Nailing Tom's first PC into the crate, and loading him on to the Inexorable Cart of Chirine ba Kal, which became a decade-long running joke.
And again, a lot more... :)

Finally in this round:  Any particular favorite recurring NPCs you loved to see return?  (Even if loved to hate ;)  Because I fully know those can end up some of the most fun!  Like the smack talking tank with an AC2 in a Battletech game I ran, kept getting away from the PCs.  They hated that little shit, weak weapon, but always annoying.  The day they blew that thing up they were calling the player who had to drop the game, and he too joined in the celebration!)

Harchar. Turshamu. Thomar. Eyloa the Blue Fish. Makesh. Deq Dimani. The Tlakotani family. And once again, lots and lots of others!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 27, 2017, 06:23:39 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;942853
Hello everybody,

Although I visit often, it's been a while since I posted anything here.

I just wanted to mention (for the ones who are not part of the Tekumel Discussion Group) that I just uploaded a vectorized version of the Seal of the Emperor to that forum. The vector itself is not perfect yet, but the heavy tracing work is done. Just install Inkscape on your computer, download the file, and start improving it or start adding colors to it, etc. Useful if you need to create clean versions of the Seal for your games, in lo or hi-res, etc.

Hope you find it useful.

You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/tekumel/files/TEKUMEL_Tsolyanu_Seal_vector.svg

Very cool! Thank you!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 27, 2017, 06:26:27 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;942853
Hello everybody,

Although I visit often, it's been a while since I posted anything here.

I just wanted to mention (for the ones who are not part of the Tekumel Discussion Group) that I just uploaded a vectorized version of the Seal of the Emperor to that forum. The vector itself is not perfect yet, but the heavy tracing work is done. Just install Inkscape on your computer, download the file, and start improving it or start adding colors to it, etc. Useful if you need to create clean versions of the Seal for your games, in lo or hi-res, etc.

Hope you find it useful.

You can access this file at the URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/tekumel/files/TEKUMEL_Tsolyanu_Seal_vector.svg


Very cool! Thank you!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 27, 2017, 06:36:06 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;942890
First, allow me to be a big ol' meanine poo-poo head and point it it's "whet" the appetite, not "wet."  As in, to sharpen or hone to a fine edge.  You're welcome.:p

Second, I agree absolutely.  Remember, George Lucas introduced us to a whole universe with 93 words, including "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away."  People don't remember, or weren't there to remember, what it was like before the entire world knew what a Jedi Knight was, or what a lightsaber was, or an Imperial Star Destroyer, etc., etc.

Give 'em a taste, they'll be back for more.

"He gives the kids free samples
because he knows full well
that today's bright shiny faces
will be tomorrow's clientele."

-- Tom Lehrer, "The Old Dope Peddlar"


Yes; this. One of the big problems with Tekumel-as-game-setting is that there's the mythology that got started in the middling 1990s that one had to amass and absorb ALL of the materials that it took us over a decade to learn - and, by and large, were created due to our questions and adventures in our games with Phil. That's not the way we did it; all we had to go on was a copy of EPT - we had, what three copies between us, Gronan? - and that was it. Everything else came out of adventures; we simply wrote it all down, both players and GMs. I've been asked to give this kind of quick intro for a while, now, and in these post-"John Carter" days, I say "Barsoom with teeth."

I don't do prolix 64-pages summaries, language camps, or post-graduate studies. I just ask the PCs what they'd like to play, have them choose some skills, and set off. Just like we did at Gary Con two years ago; it seemed to work for all those people at my table, would you say my General?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 28, 2017, 02:51:43 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;942894
I don't do prolix 64-pages summaries, language camps, or post-graduate studies. I just ask the PCs what they'd like to play, have them choose some skills, and set off. Just like we did at Gary Con two years ago; it seemed to work for all those people at my table, would you say my General?

Yep.  I wonder how many of those folks were wargamers; we went off like a well-honed commando team.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on January 28, 2017, 02:53:23 AM
Also, I'm going to urge you once more to read Terry Pratchett's "Raising Steam."  I mean, how can you not like a book with a character who delivers the line

'I am a liar for the purpose of amusement, publicity, trivial oneupmanship, personal profit and the gaiety of nations, but I'm not lying to you now'.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 28, 2017, 06:43:30 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;942934
Yep.  I wonder how many of those folks were wargamers; we went off like a well-honed commando team.

Don't be so modest. I thought that once they all absorbed just who you were - and for that matter, what they were about to play - I think that it wonderfully concentrated their minds. And they learned instantly, from their first encounter in the session, how things worked and why you were carrying on about tactics. They got really smart, really fast, and the net result was one of the very best game sessions I'd ever had.

(Normally, running the Jakalla Underworld as a convention game is dreadfully boring for me, as I've run the thing over and over and over again for some thirty-five years. This little outing, on the other hand, left me sweating and exhausted - it was, not to put to fine a point on it, the fight of my life as a GM.)

And an observation afterward that you made has stuck with me: "These people have had thirty years of RPG gameplay behind them, unlike what we had back in the day..." Which I think is true.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 28, 2017, 06:45:41 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;942935
Also, I'm going to urge you once more to read Terry Pratchett's "Raising Steam."  I mean, how can you not like a book with a character who delivers the line

'I am a liar for the purpose of amusement, publicity, trivial oneupmanship, personal profit and the gaiety of nations, but I'm not lying to you now'.

Thanks again; I'm put and about, today, and I'll see if Hugo's has a copy. I'm playing in a D&D game, run by Burl at The Source; it'll be the second time I've played, and I'm looking forward to it... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 29, 2017, 08:49:38 AM
I am delighted to be able to report that I ha a wonderful game session yesterday! The party took a little side trip off to meet Lord Chirine and his family, using the 'get home' box that they found, and we had a lovely period of rest and recuperation for the party and I got to talk about Tekumel. Much funn was had, and then it was back to Blackmoor. The party was great - they applied some of the tactical lessons I'd talked about, and the creature that had nearly wiped them out got wiped out this time as the party applied their hard-won knowledge.

Longer report on the way; I stayed up way too late, so it's off to bed for me... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 29, 2017, 01:06:21 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;943105
I am delighted to be able to report that I ha a wonderful game session yesterday! The party took a little side trip off to meet Lord Chirine and his family, using the 'get home' box that they found, and we had a lovely period of rest and recuperation for the party and I got to talk about Tekumel. Much funn was had, and then it was back to Blackmoor. The party was great - they applied some of the tactical lessons I'd talked about, and the creature that had nearly wiped them out got wiped out this time as the party applied their hard-won knowledge.

Longer report on the way; I stayed up way too late, so it's off to bed for me... :)


Haha!!! Good fun!!! Uncle, was the creature they fought Tukumel or Blackmoor in origin? I like to hear who fights what...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 29, 2017, 04:09:54 PM
Thank you again, as always, chirine!

I see Turshamu comes up again, can you elucidate more on said wizard?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 29, 2017, 06:11:55 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;943159
Haha!!! Good fun!!! Uncle, was the creature they fought Tukumel or Blackmoor in origin? I like to hear who fights what...

H:0)

It was the same Blackmoor 'Shade Knight' from 5e or something; it was the same thing that ambushed us last session, and pretty badly handled the party - I git killed, for example. This time around, after we got back to Blackmoor, they all thought tactically, and when we got jumped from behind the thing never knew what hit it - an arrow to the head from the archer in the second rank, giving us covering fire, and we in the rear rank giving the thing the Culloden treatment; while it hit my partner, I hit it with a powerful flame spell and then the old buckler-to-the-face-and-mace-to-the gut. It dropped like the proverbial rock, and the party was very pleased.

So, this session began with the Drow hitting the button on the 'get home' box, which had low batteries and so got them to the wrong timeline in Tekumel. Poor dead 1st level Chirine got hauled off to the infirmary to get brought back to life - "A little incense, a few incantations, the Eight Interlocking Oblongs of Surety, and he'll be fine!" said the Chief Physician, in his best bedside manner to the rest of the party - and the party got put up for a couple of days in Lord Chirine's palace while they all rested and got fixed up. One of the party was unfamiliar with the idea of interacting meta-campaigns, and had a lot of confusion. The others simply enjoyed the rest, avoided the carnivorous plants in the gardens, and had a good time.  Got back to Blackmoor, and got back into the castle.

I had a good time doing the local color commentary, while the GM ran the actual dice-rolling as needed. The players seemed to like the chance to role-play, instead of roll-playing. A good tme was had by all, many plots were hatched, and may mysteries unveiled for future game sessions.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 29, 2017, 06:16:56 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;943179
Thank you again, as always, chirine!

I see Turshamu comes up again, can you elucidate more on said wizard?

Turshanu is one of the Undying Wizards, and a really nice chap. Unfortunately, he's also not all that good at this sorcery business, and his usual response to casting any spells is "Oh, bother!" when the effects are not quite what was wanted in the particular situation. Foes usually stop in astonishment, and that's when we'd nail them for him. Because he's so nice and helpful, people tend to look after him, so he stays out of serious harm. You can often meet him of a night in the deserts of Milumaniya, when the moons are in conjunction and his magical ship of the Ancients sails the long-ago seas. He'll stop and give you a lift, if you're polite, and mayhem usually ensues. You might even get where you want to go - eventually... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 29, 2017, 06:34:07 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;943105
I am delighted to be able to report that I ha a wonderful game session yesterday! The party took a little side trip off to meet Lord Chirine and his family, using the 'get home' box that they found, and we had a lovely period of rest and recuperation for the party and I got to talk about Tekumel. Much funn was had, and then it was back to Blackmoor. The party was great - they applied some of the tactical lessons I'd talked about, and the creature that had nearly wiped them out got wiped out this time as the party applied their hard-won knowledge.

Longer report on the way; I stayed up way too late, so it's off to bed for me... :)
Quote from: chirine ba kal;943103
May I respectfully disagree? In yesterday's D&D session, we had a very disparate group: Drow Ranger, Human Fighter, Tiefling Ranger, Tiefling Warlock, Human Monk, Human Cleric (me). All 1st level, except for the Drow who is 2nd. The first time this group played, they had the usual loose band of adventurers and got slaughtered; the second time, they used some of my tactical ideas and survived. This third session, they adopted the tactical fomation we used to use all the time, and breezed through Castle Blackmoor's 2nd level with no problems.

What we use to call ' the marching order was: 1st rank - H. Monk, H. Fighter; 2nd - T. Ranger, T. Warlock; 3rd - H. Cleric, D. Ranger. The idea is that the armored people are front and back, with the lightly-armored people in the middle, and these also have ranged weapons/spells to provide 'fire support' to the engaged ranks. So, her looked into a room, and the front two checked it out while the middle two covered them and us; we got hit from behind, but we'd kept a good look-out; the 'Shade' hit my partner, and the Ranger hit it with an arrow and I hit it with a spell. Killed it dead; this was the sort of being that had nearly wiped out the party in the previous game session, and the new 'tactical' approach that the party took made all the difference, the group thought. I got some very nice words from all of them, and I was very pleased to see them using my experiences and advice; I am not the party leader, but I am turning into a sort of 'elder statesman' / veteran adventurer...

So, what I'd call 'micro-tactics', which is what I think Gronan was getting at, and a very diverse group - but maximized to take advantage of strengths and minimize weaknesses . And a very diverse modern kind of group, which is what I think you were getting at.


Quote from: chirine ba kal;943195
It was the same Blackmoor 'Shade Knight' from 5e or something; it was the same thing that ambushed us last session, and pretty badly handled the party - I git killed, for example. This time around, after we got back to Blackmoor, they all thought tactically, and when we got jumped from behind the thing never knew what hit it - an arrow to the head from the archer in the second rank, giving us covering fire, and we in the rear rank giving the thing the Culloden treatment; while it hit my partner, I hit it with a powerful flame spell and then the old buckler-to-the-face-and-mace-to-the gut. It dropped like the proverbial rock, and the party was very pleased.

So, this session began with the Drow hitting the button on the 'get home' box, which had low batteries and so got them to the wrong timeline in Tekumel. Poor dead 1st level Chirine got hauled off to the infirmary to get brought back to life - "A little incense, a few incantations, the Eight Interlocking Oblongs of Surety, and he'll be fine!" said the Chief Physician, in his best bedside manner to the rest of the party - and the party got put up for a couple of days in Lord Chirine's palace while they all rested and got fixed up. One of the party was unfamiliar with the idea of interacting meta-campaigns, and had a lot of confusion. The others simply enjoyed the rest, avoided the carnivorous plants in the gardens, and had a good time.  Got back to Blackmoor, and got back into the castle.

I had a good time doing the local color commentary, while the GM ran the actual dice-rolling as needed. The players seemed to like the chance to role-play, instead of roll-playing. A good tme was had by all, many plots were hatched, and may mysteries unveiled for future game sessions.
Glad to hear, here and in the other thread, that people are learning the basics of formation. Next time, Uncle, you should totally introduce them to scouting ahead and preparing an ambush;)!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;943196
Turshanu is one of the Undying Wizards, and a really nice chap. Unfortunately, he's also not all that good at this sorcery business, and his usual response to casting any spells is "Oh, bother!" when the effects are not quite what was wanted in the particular situation. Foes usually stop in astonishment, and that's when we'd nail them for him. Because he's so nice and helpful, people tend to look after him, so he stays out of serious harm. You can often meet him of a night in the deserts of Milumaniya, when the moons are in conjunction and his magical ship of the Ancients sails the long-ago seas. He'll stop and give you a lift, if you're polite, and mayhem usually ensues. You might even get where you want to go - eventually... :)

Sounds like a great NPC:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 30, 2017, 09:22:52 AM
I agree with AsenRG!  That does sound like a great NPC, I can see why you listed him.

Now for group related stuff.  If a group were to be all from a single clan, is there any advice on what clan level works best?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on January 30, 2017, 12:11:28 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;943195
It was the same Blackmoor 'Shade Knight' from 5e or something; it was the same thing that ambushed us last session, and pretty badly handled the party - I git killed, for example. This time around, after we got back to Blackmoor, they all thought tactically, and when we got jumped from behind the thing never knew what hit it - an arrow to the head from the archer in the second rank, giving us covering fire, and we in the rear rank giving the thing the Culloden treatment; while it hit my partner, I hit it with a powerful flame spell and then the old buckler-to-the-face-and-mace-to-the gut. It dropped like the proverbial rock, and the party was very pleased.

So, this session began with the Drow hitting the button on the 'get home' box, which had low batteries and so got them to the wrong timeline in Tekumel. Poor dead 1st level Chirine got hauled off to the infirmary to get brought back to life - "A little incense, a few incantations, the Eight Interlocking Oblongs of Surety, and he'll be fine!" said the Chief Physician, in his best bedside manner to the rest of the party - and the party got put up for a couple of days in Lord Chirine's palace while they all rested and got fixed up. One of the party was unfamiliar with the idea of interacting meta-campaigns, and had a lot of confusion. The others simply enjoyed the rest, avoided the carnivorous plants in the gardens, and had a good time.  Got back to Blackmoor, and got back into the castle.

I had a good time doing the local color commentary, while the GM ran the actual dice-rolling as needed. The players seemed to like the chance to role-play, instead of roll-playing. A good tme was had by all, many plots were hatched, and may mysteries unveiled for future game sessions.


Cool!!! Poor Chirine...I hope all turns out good!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 31, 2017, 09:25:28 AM
Today's questions:

What more can you tell us about the Naqsai?  Apparently the coastal people on the Southern Continent?  The Ucon books mention the Red Hats might've been starting to try and conquer them too.

Speaking of the Red Hats, any more details on the regions to the West of their empire.  I'm especially curious about anything west of the Plain of Towers, and of Lost Bayarsha.

Finally, I love maps.  Gamer Porn, as the joke goes.  Is there any place we can see maps of 'more' of Tekumel?  Southern Continent, Other side, West of the Mu'uglavyani, etc?  Even if just continental layouts or even the borders of continents.  And did the Professor really have a "Globe" done up?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron Opal on January 31, 2017, 09:53:56 AM
* sigh *

I miss gaming. One day friends, time, and opportunity will intersect again.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on January 31, 2017, 01:59:40 PM
Quote from: Baron Opal;943417
* sigh *

I miss gaming. One day friends, time, and opportunity will intersect again.
One word ... RPoL.net
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron on January 31, 2017, 02:14:08 PM
Another "word," Roll20.net.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on January 31, 2017, 02:35:16 PM
Myth Weavers trumps them all!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 31, 2017, 05:39:40 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;943201
Glad to hear, here and in the other thread, that people are learning the basics of formation. Next time, Uncle, you should totally introduce them to scouting ahead and preparing an ambush;)!

Sounds like a great NPC:D!

We're taking it slowly. They are 'modern' players, and introducing them to Ye Olde Style of Ye Gaming by Ye Ancient Adventurer is a gentle process; I do not want to dominate the group, not be the leader; this is their group, in a friend's campaign. I am a guest, and I'd like to stay an honored one. I am very happy that they are learning very, very quickly, and applying my anecdotes to game play. I am hugely enjoying myself, in a way that I have not in literally decades.

He is, and a delight to watch Phil play him. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 31, 2017, 05:42:04 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;943261
I agree with AsenRG!  That does sound like a great NPC, I can see why you listed him.

Now for group related stuff.  If a group were to be all from a single clan, is there any advice on what clan level works best?

Well, it depends on the job to be undertaken / the quest to be followed / the adventure to be had. I'd suggest about lowish in the clan, so that they are junior enough to want the commission but high enough so that they have a little status and experience so that they can get some respect from the people that they meet.

Could you be more specific, if possible?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 31, 2017, 05:44:41 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;943281
Cool!!! Poor Chirine...I hope all turns out good!!!

H;0)

First-level Chirine is doing just fine, despite being not on his proper timeline, but he and Lord Chirine had a great time discussion the worlds and where their timelines diverged. He may come back to the palace for a visit; the GM made sure that the 'get home box' was properly charged and calibrated.

It was a very fun game session, and the players enjoyed their side trip to my neck of the woods... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 31, 2017, 05:53:00 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;943506
Well, it depends on the job to be undertaken / the quest to be followed / the adventure to be had. I'd suggest about lowish in the clan, so that they are junior enough to want the commission but high enough so that they have a little status and experience so that they can get some respect from the people that they meet.

Could you be more specific, if possible?

Yeah, I guess I was more meaning to imply Level of the Clan - like a Medium clan, would that be a good balance of not too important, room to advance, but not so lowly as to be a difficult social challenge?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 31, 2017, 06:19:26 PM
From Dulahan:Today's questions:

What more can you tell us about the Naqsai?  Apparently the coastal people on the Southern Continent?  The Ucon books mention the Red Hats might've been starting to try and conquer them too.

Book Two of "To Serve The Petal Throne", which covers our journey along their coasts. That was our first trip to the Southern Continent, out to the west; our second (Book Four) was off to the east. Nice people, not a hugely organized place, but we didn't have any problems with them on our trip. O' course, we also didn't act like jerks, either, and paid our way as we went.

Part of our mission down there was to see what the Four Palaces might be up to; they were reacting to the Livyani adventure in the Tsolei Isles, which was one of the dumber ideas anyone has had on Tekumel. Nobody's ever managed to support and maintain a sea-borne invasion against a hostile shore in recorded history - see also "Deeds" for more on this. The logistics are lousy, and while initial attacks make a big noise they usually fade out like the Livyani did. The Red-hat's moves were probes, mostly, to see what trouble they could cause the Livyani and diverting resources in advance of their long-planned invasion many years later. So, lots of skirmishes and raids, but not a lot of staying power. We arrived on the scene, and the Red-hats had to play nice while we were around; we did do a little unauthorized thumping of heads to help out the locals, but you didn't hear that from me and there's nothing about it in my reports to the Petal Throne.

In general, they are lots of little coastal city-states that do a lot of trading with each other and occasionally with the Shen; the latter established a colony there, away off in the far south-east corner of Map One.

Speaking of the Red Hats, any more details on the regions to the West of their empire.  I'm especially curious about anything west of the Plain of Towers, and of Lost Bayarsha.

Well, Tane, of course; that was covered in the first Tekumel Journal, and I think Alva Hardison did a nice map of the area. I think that's up on the Yahoo group. You get a big area of temperate / northern forests, then Tane proper.

Ah, Lost Bayarsha. Telepaths, with no body hair. Sound familiar? From what we gathered in our thankfully rare visits, these are the nasty telepaths who are descended from the starship communicators of the Lords of Humanspace. Chirine's Senior Wife is one of the opposite telepaths of the Temple of Mretten, the nice telepaths. I think that there's  dispatch about the place in one of the two early Couriers, too.

(One thing about asking me questions, by the way. In general, if there is a published text on the subject, I will refer you to that so that you can get Phil's original materials unfiltered. If I don;t know, I'll say so, but it's usually best to ask me more specific questions about something; more general questions will get a more general answer, as I don't type very quickly, and I don't want to retype a lot of things...)

Finally, I love maps.  Gamer Porn, as the joke goes.  Is there any place we can see maps of 'more' of Tekumel?  Southern Continent, Other side, West of the Mu'uglavyani, etc?  Even if just continental layouts or even the borders of continents.  And did the Professor really have a "Globe" done up?

The flip answer is: Yes, in my basement. I have all of the published maps, all of the unpublished maps that Phil and we gamers did, all of the maps that used to be up in http://www.tekumel.com, and quite a few of the maps done by other people over the years. I've made sure to add all the maps I could to my archives, and made sure that they have all been preserved. I have everything in digital format, which is why when I referee Tekumel I can just project stuff up on the wall or onto the monitor at the side of the game table.

I'd try the Yahoo group files, or the tekumel.com site for maps that you can see without a trip down here to my little 'museum'.

Yes, he did. We did a complete photo survey of it, both in 1987 and again in 2011. I think some of our photos are up on the web...

Ah! A Google seach for "Tekumel" globe will get you to the 1987 photo that my Missus took for Phil. Phil had bought a blank globe, and drew in the landmass we live on; he drew in the adjoining coastlines, as well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on January 31, 2017, 06:21:08 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;943508
Yeah, I guess I was more meaning to imply Level of the Clan - like a Medium clan, would that be a good balance of not too important, room to advance, but not so lowly as to be a difficult social challenge?

Yes, I think it would. Too low, and nobody would take them seriously; too high, and they would not have much reason to go on the adventure. Medium sounds very good.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on January 31, 2017, 07:06:51 PM
More excellent stuff!  And I am grateful for when you cite things too, it gives me a good reason to track down missing pieces of my collection.  PDF of both the Journals procured.  And my order of the Seal of the Imperium 2.1 and 2.2 just arrived too.  Lots of good new stuff to read and it's exciting.

Man that must have been something to experience all that, I know it bleeds out even in your writing how wondrous it was, but it's been great just to experience some more of this.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on February 01, 2017, 07:12:06 AM
Quote from: Dulahan;943521
More excellent stuff!  And I am grateful for when you cite things too, it gives me a good reason to track down missing pieces of my collection.  PDF of both the Journals procured.  And my order of the Seal of the Imperium 2.1 and 2.2 just arrived too.  Lots of good new stuff to read and it's exciting.

Man that must have been something to experience all that, I know it bleeds out even in your writing how wondrous it was, but it's been great just to experience some more of this.

Wait till he has his book finished.
I plan to take some vacation days from work just to read it.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on February 01, 2017, 09:05:44 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;943595
Wait till he has his book finished.
I plan to take some vacation days from work just to read it.
=

That should definitely be a treat!

And now for Chirine:  In your accounts of the battle  (I forget the name of it, but the one you and the Glorious General pulled off an amazing victory to prevent a dual TPK and all) you wrote a bit about military formations, the Bow of Someone or another, and a different one as well.

Are those formations shown somewhere?  Or were they just based on Real Life ones you two were both quite familiar with to the point you could do a Tekumel sounding proper noun in it and make it work?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 01, 2017, 09:48:26 AM
Quote from: Dulahan;943602

-snip-

Are those formations shown somewhere?  Or were they just based on Real Life ones you two were both quite familiar with to the point you could do a Tekumel sounding proper noun in it and make it work?

Take a look at Dragon 7, they are completely detailed in there, and The Eye of All Seeing Wonder, Issue 4, Spring 1995 (on Tekumel.com) has a nice little article on the Qadarni.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on February 01, 2017, 10:53:27 AM
Quote from: Dulahan;943602


Are those formations shown somewhere?  Or were they just based on Real Life ones you two were both quite familiar with to the point you could do a Tekumel sounding proper noun in it and make it work?


As Shemek says, the Professor described them in an article in the Dragon. The same article was reprinted as an Appendix in Sutherland's Legions of the Petal Throne (and possibly elsewhere?). He named and described 12 army formations and 21 unit formations. Great article.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on February 01, 2017, 11:36:17 AM
Awesome, I'll get those.  Thank you!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 01, 2017, 06:05:49 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;943521
More excellent stuff!  And I am grateful for when you cite things too, it gives me a good reason to track down missing pieces of my collection.  PDF of both the Journals procured.  And my order of the Seal of the Imperium 2.1 and 2.2 just arrived too.  Lots of good new stuff to read and it's exciting.

Man that must have been something to experience all that, I know it bleeds out even in your writing how wondrous it was, but it's been great just to experience some more of this.


You're welcome! It is what I am here for, I think. As the Glorious General can tell you, back in the days of the Akbar and Jeff Traveling Tekumel Road show, I'd be answering these kinds of questions and holding up the appropriate book for you - and we'd have them all ready for you, too. Generally. I do not type out long extracts of books, nor do I do 'cut-and-paste' of them; I'll refer to to them, and let you look them over, on the assumption that you have two (or more) brain cells that rub together and you don;t need your hand held with some sort of 'interpretation' having to be done for you. I can tell you what we did, back in the day...

It was, which is why we stuck with it for a dozen years of every Thursday night for five hours. Phil was simply astounding when he was allowed to be creative, and our group let him be creative. as for my writing, I'd suggest asking the folks hereabouts who have slogged their way through my cure for insomnia how it reads... :)

(I'm too close to the thing, myself...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 01, 2017, 06:06:39 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;943595
Wait till he has his book finished.
I plan to take some vacation days from work just to read it.
=


Well. That's a compliment, if ever I heard one... :)

Thank you!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 01, 2017, 06:10:09 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;943602
That should definitely be a treat!

And now for Chirine:  In your accounts of the battle  (I forget the name of it, but the one you and the Glorious General pulled off an amazing victory to prevent a dual TPK and all) you wrote a bit about military formations, the Bow of Someone or another, and a different one as well.

Are those formations shown somewhere?  Or were they just based on Real Life ones you two were both quite familiar with to the point you could do a Tekumel sounding proper noun in it and make it work?


Third Mar. The formations are right out of the book - as several people replied. Phil had a wealth of this kind of thing, and we used it a lot. I even did a version of the formations on parchment paper, in Tsolyani, and Ken Fletcher also did a version that we handed out at conventions at our game demos.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 01, 2017, 06:10:58 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;943605
Take a look at Dragon 7, they are completely detailed in there, and The Eye of All Seeing Wonder, Issue 4, Spring 1995 (on Tekumel.com) has a nice little article on the Qadarni.

Shemek.


Yep; the Dragon article is the original, and he later gave it to Dave for his rules...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 01, 2017, 06:12:27 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;943609
As Shemek says, the Professor described them in an article in the Dragon. The same article was reprinted as an Appendix in Sutherland's Legions of the Petal Throne (and possibly elsewhere?). He named and described 12 army formations and 21 unit formations. Great article.

... and it's in my "Qadardalikoi" as well. Carl Brodt may still have copies, too. I am working on an updated second edition, but it'll be a while. It will be fully illustrated with color photos of the miniatures in action, though... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 01, 2017, 06:13:29 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;943614
Awesome, I'll get those.  Thank you!

Like I say, Carl at Tita's may still have copies of my rules. I have spare copies, as well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 01, 2017, 09:08:48 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;943651
-snip-

It was, which is why we stuck with it for a dozen years of every Thursday night for five hours. Phil was simply astounding when he was allowed to be creative, and our group let him be creative. as for my writing, I'd suggest asking the folks hereabouts who have slogged their way through my cure for insomnia how it reads... :)

(I'm too close to the thing, myself...)

Chirine is being super modest. The book, even its unfinished form, was, for me, a sheer pleasure to read. I can assure you no slogging was involved.. Talk about a ring side seat at the Thursday Night Game. If you want to read about some great adventures in  "ye olden dayes" then this is the book. I can't wait for the finished version.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 01, 2017, 09:12:26 PM
Chirine,

I like the new look of the blog, even if it was unintended.;)

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 02, 2017, 06:31:54 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;943681
Chirine is being super modest. The book, even its unfinished form, was, for me, a sheer pleasure to read. I can assure you no slogging was involved.. Talk about a ring side seat at the Thursday Night Game. If you want to read about some great adventures in  "ye olden dayes" then this is the book. I can't wait for the finished version.

Shemek.

Thank you for the very kind words! All I'm trying to do is tell people the stories of some folks we met a long time ago, and had the chance to play as they went about their lives; we got to know these people pretty well, and they were not just numbers on a stats sheet to us. And we got to explore Phil's creation, and journey with him as he developed ideas that he'd had since the 1940s.

It was, if you ask me, a truly astonishing time. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 02, 2017, 06:33:22 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;943682
Chirine,

I like the new look of the blog, even if it was unintended.;)

Shemek

Thank you! I have no idea what happened to the old template; I had done a post, and gotten home to find the thing all wonky. So, I picked a new template from the list, and there we are. Glad you like it - it's easier to read, I think.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 02, 2017, 06:54:16 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;943681
Chirine is being super modest. The book, even its unfinished form, was, for me, a sheer pleasure to read. I can assure you no slogging was involved.. Talk about a ring side seat at the Thursday Night Game. If you want to read about some great adventures in  "ye olden dayes" then this is the book. I can't wait for the finished version.

Shemek.


Seconded;). I'm waiting for the finished variant with all the patience I can muster!

And then we'll start waiting for the second edition of Chirine's miniature rules:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 02, 2017, 02:53:25 PM
Uncle,

I have a quick question about Shen...Shén have three sexes: males ('egg-creators') about 40 percent, females ('egg layers') 35 percent, and ‘egg-fertilisers’ 25 percent(from the Tekumel website)...What "gender" are the "egg-fertilisers" considered? I would think male? It just crossed my mind.

Thanks,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 02, 2017, 05:44:05 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;943714
Seconded;). I'm waiting for the finished variant with all the patience I can muster!

And then we'll start waiting for the second edition of Chirine's miniature rules:D!

And thank you for your patience, too! I get at the thing in fits and starts, depending on my schedule and energy levels.

The updated rules have been put aside for quite a while, as I dealt with other things. I had really wanted to get my play-by-email campaign going again a while back to provide a 'laboratory' for the revisions, but that kind of fell apart in the wake of the troubles I had over the proposed convention show I'd been asked to do. I'd like to move on the campaign again, now that the game room has assumed it's final shape, and that will - I hope, get me motivated to work on the rules once again.

It is my intention to make the new edition entirely 'backwards compatible' with the original version. No real changes, aside from I will now allow people to shoot into melee - with the chance of hitting their own troops! - as this was something that people said that they wanted to do over the years. What I want to do is update the technology of gaming, as there have been some really amazing things that I've come across over the decades that I've included in my gaming and which have been a lot of fun in games. Practical ways to run night battles; more detailed and accurate sea battles - Olympias has made a huge impression! - and there are all sorts of things that we could only dream about and which are now available for gaming.

And I've added so much to my own collection, too. E-publishing means that I can take color (!) photos of everything, to show you what I'm talking about, and I can also shoot video for you to have so that I can be there at your game table to show you how the game works. Amazing stuff, if you ask me... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 02, 2017, 05:47:41 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;943755
Uncle,

I have a quick question about Shen...Shén have three sexes: males ('egg-creators') about 40 percent, females ('egg layers') 35 percent, and ‘egg-fertilisers’ 25 percent(from the Tekumel website)...What "gender" are the "egg-fertilisers" considered? I would think male? It just crossed my mind.

Thanks,

H:0)

Ahhh... no. Their 'gender' is "egg-fertilizer'. Phil was pretty firm on this point, reminding people that these are alien people from an alien world. Human definitions and perceptions may not apply - and in our game sessions with him, they often didn't. Which is why I still think that the very best compliment that I got from him was:

"Chirine, you've gone native."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 02, 2017, 07:01:16 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;943788
Ahhh... no. Their 'gender' is "egg-fertilizer'. Phil was pretty firm on this point, reminding people that these are alien people from an alien world. Human definitions and perceptions may not apply - and in our game sessions with him, they often didn't. Which is why I still think that the very best compliment that I got from him was:

"Chirine, you've gone native."


Okay. How might an encounter with an "egg-fertilizer" go? Do they protect their eggs similar to Tharks? Any insight would be helpful.

Thanks,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 02, 2017, 07:19:23 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;943799
Okay. How might an encounter with an "egg-fertilizer" go? Do they protect their eggs similar to Tharks? Any insight would be helpful.

Thanks,

H:0)

You'd treat them like anybody else, politely and respectfully. Humans don't make inquiries into the varying kinds of personal relationships other species have, as it can get one killed if offense is offered. With Shen, one usually is dealing with males, as they do a lot of the 'outside' work like a male human clan member would be doing, and the females tend to run the 'inner' workings of the household. If one does encounter an egg-fertilizer, one doesn't remark on the fact; like with Tinalya 'neuters', for example, it is what it is and politeness is in order. An expert might be able to tell gender by look, but it's not easy. So, we tended t keep our mouths shut and be nice when meeting Shen of any kind.

Shen are a lot more protective of their eggs then Tharks; there are special chambers in their homes where the eggs and hatchlings are kept, usually under reasonable security precautions. Because of their egg-group differences, they don't hire mercenaries of any kind to guard their eggs; this is a family thing, and visitors and strangers are very strongly discouraged. I think there's more on this in the Sourcebook, too.

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 02, 2017, 09:19:29 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;943803
You'd treat them like anybody else, politely and respectfully. Humans don't make inquiries into the varying kinds of personal relationships other species have, as it can get one killed if offense is offered. With Shen, one usually is dealing with males, as they do a lot of the 'outside' work like a male human clan member would be doing, and the females tend to run the 'inner' workings of the household. If one does encounter an egg-fertilizer, one doesn't remark on the fact; like with Tinalya 'neuters', for example, it is what it is and politeness is in order. An expert might be able to tell gender by look, but it's not easy. So, we tended t keep our mouths shut and be nice when meeting Shen of any kind.

Shen are a lot more protective of their eggs then Tharks; there are special chambers in their homes where the eggs and hatchlings are kept, usually under reasonable security precautions. Because of their egg-group differences, they don't hire mercenaries of any kind to guard their eggs; this is a family thing, and visitors and strangers are very strongly discouraged. I think there's more on this in the Sourcebook, too.

Does this help?


Great!!! Thank you. My first order of business after the 23rd of this month will be to annotate my copy of the S&G sourcebook(cover to cover)...I'm sure I will plague you with questions then!!! My battle with the Demons from another plane will soon be over and I will get back to a more normal life!!! So S&G sourcebook, Lord of Light, ADoK to start. Then a reread of the earlier works of The Professor. Not to mention a recent acquisition of some old issues of the Journal of Tekumel Affairs(at a reasonable price at that)!!! So thank you again. Be well.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 03, 2017, 10:05:52 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;943803
Shen are a lot more protective of their eggs then Tharks;

Is such a thing even possible;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron on February 03, 2017, 11:35:00 AM
I've got a question for you, Chirine. I'm implementing some rules for my existing gaming group (teenagers) involving resource management. I'd been glossing over supplies and encumbrance up til now. So, I'm figuring the temperature in Jakalla is normally well over 90 degrees F, which is going to require someone engaged in strenuous adventuring to consume two gallons of water per day. (Maybe 1.25 gallons per day between 50-70 degrees, as in the sewers, tombs or Underworld.) And going with a one-gallon waterskin per player, in a world without mules, we're talking bearers with water kegs for extended forays. All this begs the question of where fresh water comes from. The waterways are awfully polluted, adventuring in the sewers precludes the possibility of fresh water being available, the dead don't need water in their tombs. But, where does the city populace get their water? Upstream? Wells dug in what I assume is soft, shifting ground (estuary) can't be very reliable sources of fresh water, can they? Also, those Underworld complexes that have all those living guards and living high priests, and the monsters wandering about, will need fresh water too. Just assume underground rivers and streams for that? Are there fountains, pools and wells scattered about for ease of access down there? Did any of this ever come up with the Professor? Thanks!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 03, 2017, 12:25:57 PM
Quote from: Baron;943884
I've got a question for you, Chirine. I'm implementing some rules for my existing gaming group (teenagers) involving resource management. I'd been glossing over supplies and encumbrance up til now. So, I'm figuring the temperature in Jakalla is normally well over 90 degrees F, which is going to require someone engaged in strenuous adventuring to consume two gallons of water per day. (Maybe 1.25 gallons per day between 50-70 degrees, as in the sewers, tombs or Underworld.) And going with a one-gallon waterskin per player, in a world without mules, we're talking bearers with water kegs for extended forays. All this begs the question of where fresh water comes from. The waterways are awfully polluted, adventuring in the sewers precludes the possibility of fresh water being available, the dead don't need water in their tombs. But, where does the city populace get their water? Upstream? Wells dug in what I assume is soft, shifting ground (estuary) can't be very reliable sources of fresh water, can they? Also, those Underworld complexes that have all those living guards and living high priests, and the monsters wandering about, will need fresh water too. Just assume underground rivers and streams for that? Are there fountains, pools and wells scattered about for ease of access down there? Did any of this ever come up with the Professor? Thanks!

Haha!!! I was thinking about water on Tekumel today as well(pun maybe intended)!!! I was thinking about fountains, wells, running water in cities let's say Jakalla...Uncle, can you shed some light into waters availability around city, town, village, and wilderness?

Thanks,

H:0)

PS Can Hma be used as pack animals such as llamas? Or maybe even large dogs?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 03, 2017, 02:59:10 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;943872
Is such a thing even possible;)?

Considering that Tharks hide their eggs and abandon them for five years, yes.  Shen don't hide their eggs, they collect them and put them in the midst of their deepest enclaves and guard them fuss over them constantly.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 03, 2017, 03:27:21 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;943923
Considering that Tharks hide their eggs and abandon them for five years, yes.
I was thinking more about a certain scene where John Carter is found on top of the incubator of the Tharks, and a certain Thark attacks him, Glorious General;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 03, 2017, 05:27:50 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;943813
Great!!! Thank you. My first order of business after the 23rd of this month will be to annotate my copy of the S&G sourcebook(cover to cover)...I'm sure I will plague you with questions then!!! My battle with the Demons from another plane will soon be over and I will get back to a more normal life!!! So S&G sourcebook, Lord of Light, ADoK to start. Then a reread of the earlier works of The Professor. Not to mention a recent acquisition of some old issues of the Journal of Tekumel Affairs(at a reasonable price at that)!!! So thank you again. Be well.

H:0)

You're welcome! It all sounds good; let me know what you're missing. I have lots of spares sitting on the shelves, and I'd like to reduce our paper holdings in favor of our digital ones.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 03, 2017, 05:29:30 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;943872
Is such a thing even possible;)?


Yes... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 03, 2017, 05:50:29 PM
Quote from: Baron;943884
I've got a question for you, Chirine. I'm implementing some rules for my existing gaming group (teenagers) involving resource management. I'd been glossing over supplies and encumbrance up til now. So, I'm figuring the temperature in Jakalla is normally well over 90 degrees F, which is going to require someone engaged in strenuous adventuring to consume two gallons of water per day. (Maybe 1.25 gallons per day between 50-70 degrees, as in the sewers, tombs or Underworld.) And going with a one-gallon waterskin per player, in a world without mules, we're talking bearers with water kegs for extended forays. All this begs the question of where fresh water comes from. The waterways are awfully polluted, adventuring in the sewers precludes the possibility of fresh water being available, the dead don't need water in their tombs. But, where does the city populace get their water? Upstream? Wells dug in what I assume is soft, shifting ground (estuary) can't be very reliable sources of fresh water, can they? Also, those Underworld complexes that have all those living guards and living high priests, and the monsters wandering about, will need fresh water too. Just assume underground rivers and streams for that? Are there fountains, pools and wells scattered about for ease of access down there? Did any of this ever come up with the Professor? Thanks!

Great question, and one that we did ask, back in the day. Sources for 'city water' are 'upstream', wells - which are usually private and guarded, and aqueducts. There are also underground rivers and streams, like the underground portion of the Missuma in the Jakalla underworld, and there are also the individual plumbing systems owned by various temples and clans; these are very localized, and near the surface, and usually watched over by the owners with their own guards. 'Poaching' and 'water wars' are not uncommon in the Underworlds, where just about anything goes.

As for extended forays into underworlds, we tried really hard not to do them - for the reason you give, as well as for other reasons. Trailing a bunch of torch-bearers and luggage-carriers is not a very good way to sneak around down there, and usually attracts all sorts of really unwanted and unwelcome attention. Not to mention what happens when the bearers panic, and run off with all your supplies and gear. (I would never even consider using a pack animal, for the same reasons.) The water and food issue is why worshippers of Avanthe are particularly useful and well-protected members of any exploring party, as they have a temple spell to create food and drink on demand. So, we used to have somebody in the party with this spell, and then everybody would keep their packed supplies in reserve for emergencies.

Out on the surface, we marched with water carts (big barrels on carts, really) in the legion's baggage train. I made sure that we had water barrels when we walked from Meku to Fasiltum, and we changed out the water regularly.

We always figured encumbrance in very practical terms. A lot of us had done re-enactment marches and the like, and so we knew pretty much to the nearest pound what we could carry. It was one of the reasons why we first built my suit of armor, and then had a fun day comparing what I could and could not do with Gronan, who was kind enough to wear his for the day as well. Wearing backpacks while in armor isn't all that practical, as it's hard to get them off when trouble looms. So, I use - and still have, in my collection - a pair of leather carrying pouches that are slung from shoulder straps; left pack slung from right shoulder, and the other the opposite way. It's easy to carry, easy to drop off, and allows me to carry a good twenty-five pounds of stuff. I have a pair of water bottles, one in each pouch, and I can carry a good gallon, gallon and a half, that way.

My actual 'belt pouch' was slung from my belt more or less at the rear, to allow me to have the weapons load-out at my sides, and I only carried 'reserve' items in it. As I say, we did a lot of very practical research and experimentation back in the day.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 03, 2017, 05:57:19 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;943891
Haha!!! I was thinking about water on Tekumel today as well(pun maybe intended)!!! I was thinking about fountains, wells, running water in cities let's say Jakalla...Uncle, can you shed some light into waters availability around city, town, village, and wilderness?

Thanks,

H:0)

PS Can Hma be used as pack animals such as llamas? Or maybe even large dogs?

Sure; see also my other reply. Water out in the countryside is from streams and lakes, and from locals' wells if they exist. There are fountains in cities, ut you do pay for the water you draw either to the city prefect or the people who own the fountain.

No. They are just like sheep, and just as dumb as well. Large dogs, especially ones that could carry a load, are rare and very expensive. Humans are much cheaper, which does keep the slavers in business.

Chirine has his own staff of hired/contract bearers, who carry things and mind the carts in his baggage train, but he'd never use them in an underworld; too risky for them. Better off hiring mercenaries (player-characters, really) and have them share the load, as they can at least defend themselves with some degree of survival.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 03, 2017, 05:57:59 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;943923
Considering that Tharks hide their eggs and abandon them for five years, yes.  Shen don't hide their eggs, they collect them and put them in the midst of their deepest enclaves and guard them fuss over them constantly.

This.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 03, 2017, 05:58:37 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;943930
I was thinking more about a certain scene where John Carter is found on top of the incubator of the Tharks, and a certain Thark attacks him, Glorious General;).

And that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 03, 2017, 11:17:45 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;943957
You're welcome! It all sounds good; let me know what you're missing. I have lots of spares sitting on the shelves, and I'd like to reduce our paper holdings in favor of our digital ones.


Lord Chirine, that will be a pleasure!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on February 04, 2017, 01:04:15 AM
Well, the first thing first!  The group comes together!  Thankfully, they opted not to be off the boat so that skipped my fears with Bethorm not doing that well in Chargen...

What we have so far, all decided to be from the Scroll of Wisdom Clan.  


1: Sakbe Guard, BIG Aridani Woman.  Like, probably has some Nluss blood big.  Follows Ksarul for some reason.
2: Priest of Dlamelish - Gifted Sorceror.
3: Priest of Gruganu - Also Gifted Sorceror, forget if Ritual or not.
4: Military Ritual Priestess from the Legion of the Bringer of Spells - Ksarul.  Has the ear of one of the Majors' (A High Clan member at that) Batman.  Decent combatty sort.
5: A Bureaucrat slash Historian, fascinated with Engsvlanyani history.  Also, happens to have the ear of the GOVERNOR.  Trying to decide where they're gonna be, so that's gonna be important...  He also follows Ksarul.

There'll be at least one more player, he wants to be some form of Scholar/Priest sort as well.  "An Indiana Jones sort" was his commentary, so... whatever that means.  


So yeah, that'll be the crew that will soon be delving into Tekumel.  Things should  be interesting.   Now the prep work from me, and the questions for here.  My initial thoughts for the characters are them being from either the Meku or Mrelu areas.  Given the Governor is a contact of one PC, that's gonna be an important decision.  Anything you could tell me about those two in order to help make this decision?  Particularly their Governors!  But also fun opportunities with each city.  (also, any published info on them to refer me to is gladly sought out!  As usual)

And a more general call out to the thread, I'm totally game for trouble ideas to land these fine young Tsolyani into. ;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on February 04, 2017, 09:12:42 AM
Quote from: Dulahan;944018
And a more general call out to the thread, I'm totally game for trouble ideas to land these fine young Tsolyani into. ;)

What have those Stability worshipers discovered with their digging around on their fief and how can it be used to further the Governor's career?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 04, 2017, 09:25:22 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;944006
Lord Chirine, that will be a pleasure!!!

H:0)

Either this, or I do a rummage sale in the back yard. What with the Missus getting the entire archive, including all the printed materials, scanned and onto disc, there's not a lot of reason why I need to keep multiple paper copies of everything. I have several 'working copies' of the archive, one at my desk and one in the game room, and the digital media take up a tiny fraction of the paper archive's occupancy.

Of course, the miniatures collection is what it is; luckily for me, I did plan for expansion space for this when I built the furniture for the game room over a decade ago. (As Gronan can tell you, I like to have back-up plans for my back-up plans.) All of the figures live in the game room, with the large/bulky/rarely used items in the game shed. Books that I think important to gaming live in the game room as well.

It turns out that the Resident Daughter does not need the little dorm room fridge that used to be in the game lounge, so my task for today is to get it back into the basement and running again. I'm also moving the two Sakbe road sets out into their new crates and homes, as well as moving the crate with Castle Tilketl to the same storage. So, busy day ahead! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 04, 2017, 09:32:30 AM
Quote from: Dulahan;944018
Well, the first thing first!  The group comes together!  Thankfully, they opted not to be off the boat so that skipped my fears with Bethorm not doing that well in Chargen...

What we have so far, all decided to be from the Scroll of Wisdom Clan.  


1: Sakbe Guard, BIG Aridani Woman.  Like, probably has some Nluss blood big.  Follows Ksarul for some reason.
2: Priest of Dlamelish - Gifted Sorceror.
3: Priest of Gruganu - Also Gifted Sorceror, forget if Ritual or not.
4: Military Ritual Priestess from the Legion of the Bringer of Spells - Ksarul.  Has the ear of one of the Majors' (A High Clan member at that) Batman.  Decent combatty sort.
5: A Bureaucrat slash Historian, fascinated with Engsvlanyani history.  Also, happens to have the ear of the GOVERNOR.  Trying to decide where they're gonna be, so that's gonna be important...  He also follows Ksarul.

There'll be at least one more player, he wants to be some form of Scholar/Priest sort as well.  "An Indiana Jones sort" was his commentary, so... whatever that means.  


So yeah, that'll be the crew that will soon be delving into Tekumel.  Things should  be interesting.   Now the prep work from me, and the questions for here.  My initial thoughts for the characters are them being from either the Meku or Mrelu areas.  Given the Governor is a contact of one PC, that's gonna be an important decision.  Anything you could tell me about those two in order to help make this decision?  Particularly their Governors!  But also fun opportunities with each city.  (also, any published info on them to refer me to is gladly sought out!  As usual)

And a more general call out to the thread, I'm totally game for trouble ideas to land these fine young Tsolyani into. ;)

I like it. I'd suggest that your 'Indiana Jones' be a scholar-priest, probably of Ksarul, Hry'y, or their cohorts in keeping with the rest of the party.

I'd suggest Mrelu. The Disposer of Meku was a clan-cousin of mine, back in the early 2360s, and not any friend of the dark trinity. Mrelu is also more Ksarul country, with a lot of clans devoted to him. I can get you more information, too; it'll have to be later today or tomorrow, as I need time to dig it out.. (You can always call me on my cell phone; I've sent you the number via a private message.) There is not a lot of published material on either city, sorry to say, but I'll see what I can find for you.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 04, 2017, 09:33:17 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;944060
What have those Stability worshipers discovered with their digging around on their fief and how can it be used to further the Governor's career?
=

Yes, indeed; inquiring minds want to know...

Great suggestion!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 04, 2017, 10:34:44 AM
Quote from: Dulahan;944018
Well, the first thing first!  The group comes together!  Thankfully, they opted not to be off the boat so that skipped my fears with Bethorm not doing that well in Chargen...

What we have so far, all decided to be from the Scroll of Wisdom Clan.  


1: Sakbe Guard, BIG Aridani Woman.  Like, probably has some Nluss blood big.  Follows Ksarul for some reason.
2: Priest of Dlamelish - Gifted Sorceror.
3: Priest of Gruganu - Also Gifted Sorceror, forget if Ritual or not.
4: Military Ritual Priestess from the Legion of the Bringer of Spells - Ksarul.  Has the ear of one of the Majors' (A High Clan member at that) Batman.  Decent combatty sort.
5: A Bureaucrat slash Historian, fascinated with Engsvlanyani history.  Also, happens to have the ear of the GOVERNOR.  Trying to decide where they're gonna be, so that's gonna be important...  He also follows Ksarul.

There'll be at least one more player, he wants to be some form of Scholar/Priest sort as well.  "An Indiana Jones sort" was his commentary, so... whatever that means.  


So yeah, that'll be the crew that will soon be delving into Tekumel.  Things should  be interesting.   Now the prep work from me, and the questions for here.  My initial thoughts for the characters are them being from either the Meku or Mrelu areas.  Given the Governor is a contact of one PC, that's gonna be an important decision.  Anything you could tell me about those two in order to help make this decision?  Particularly their Governors!  But also fun opportunities with each city.  (also, any published info on them to refer me to is gladly sought out!  As usual)

And a more general call out to the thread, I'm totally game for trouble ideas to land these fine young Tsolyani into. ;)

Well, you can always start them in the deep and give them a hint to one of the Keys;)!

Or, you know, start them off with some political intrigue.
Is any of them seen as "expendable"? Then he or she could be used to tarnish the reputation of their clan, temple, contacts or allies. Lure them to deal with the Forbidden stuff that leads to the "high ride". A "false flag" operation to lure someone to carry Zuur is always a favourite, especially if you then tip the autorities to capture him or her:p!
The guy that has ties to the Governor is a prime target for that, if their relation is known;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;943958
Yes... :)

See, Uncle, I see the Tharks' and the Shen's customs as different ways to be protective, not different amounts:).
The Shen protect their eggs, true. But this also means the enemy knows where to raid in order to steal or destroy them. Their enemies also don't have, say, flying ships with weird flame weapons...
The Tharks hide their eggs in the great wastes that they're masters of. It's a way that relies on their best attribute: knowing the Martian wastes. Oh, and their enemies do have such ships, so if they knew where they keep the eggs, they could attack them. Granted, they could repel them, but it's not guaranteed.
Both groups probably use their way of as a method of reinforcing the value of their tradition and sticking with the group: the Green ones by forsaking those that hatch too late or too early, the Shen by introducing them at birth to the innermost, best protected parts of their secret homes.

Well, enough waxing lyrical about the non-human races. But at least they're definitely not frigging Elves:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 04, 2017, 11:57:23 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;944068
Well, you can always start them in the deep and give them a hint to one of the Keys;)!

Or, you know, start them off with some political intrigue.
Is any of them seen as "expendable"? Then he or she could be used to tarnish the reputation of their clan, temple, contacts or allies. Lure them to deal with the Forbidden stuff that leads to the "high ride". A "false flag" operation to lure someone to carry Zuur is always a favourite, especially if you then tip the autorities to capture him or her:p!
The guy that has ties to the Governor is a prime target for that, if their relation is known;).


See, Uncle, I see the Tharks' and the Shen's customs as different ways to be protective, not different amounts:).
The Shen protect their eggs, true. But this also means the enemy knows where to raid in order to steal or destroy them. Their enemies also don't have, say, flying ships with weird flame weapons...
The Tharks hide their eggs in the great wastes that they're masters of. It's a way that relies on their best attribute: knowing the Martian wastes. Oh, and their enemies do have such ships, so if they knew where they keep the eggs, they could attack them. Granted, they could repel them, but it's not guaranteed.
Both groups probably use their way of as a method of reinforcing the value of their tradition and sticking with the group: the Green ones by forsaking those that hatch too late or too early, the Shen by introducing them at birth to the innermost, best protected parts of their secret homes.

Well, enough waxing lyrical about the non-human races. But at least they're definitely not frigging Elves:D!

Great suggestions, all of which follow the philosophy of "mayhem ensues". :)

Ah! Understood! I like it - makes sense to me!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 04, 2017, 12:16:22 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;944081
Great suggestions, all of which follow the philosophy of "mayhem ensues". :)
Of course, Uncle, it's the basic law of adventuring:)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 04, 2017, 06:46:26 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;944085
Of course, Uncle, it's the basic law of adventuring:)!

Well, I think it should be; that's why we used to call them 'adventures', and the hobby 'adventure gaming'.

Like watching "John Carter"; lots of adventure to be had, and I could have done without the heaps of existential angst that seemed to have been added to make the film more 'relevant'. Sill had lots of fun, through! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 05, 2017, 10:17:22 AM
Quote from: Baron;943884
I've got a question for you, Chirine. I'm implementing some rules for my existing gaming group (teenagers) involving resource management. I'd been glossing over supplies and encumbrance up til now. So, I'm figuring the temperature in Jakalla is normally well over 90 degrees F, which is going to require someone engaged in strenuous adventuring to consume two gallons of water per day. (Maybe 1.25 gallons per day between 50-70 degrees, as in the sewers, tombs or Underworld.) And going with a one-gallon waterskin per player, in a world without mules, we're talking bearers with water kegs for extended forays. All this begs the question of where fresh water comes from. The waterways are awfully polluted, adventuring in the sewers precludes the possibility of fresh water being available, the dead don't need water in their tombs. But, where does the city populace get their water? Upstream? Wells dug in what I assume is soft, shifting ground (estuary) can't be very reliable sources of fresh water, can they? Also, those Underworld complexes that have all those living guards and living high priests, and the monsters wandering about, will need fresh water too. Just assume underground rivers and streams for that? Are there fountains, pools and wells scattered about for ease of access down there? Did any of this ever come up with the Professor? Thanks!


Some things are just too obvious, when they stare me in the face - I was typing away on my book when you're question came back into mind.

I should also have said that there's rainwater, as well; many buildings have gutters and cisterns for this. Which I should have remembered, as my own palace has them for the winter monsoon rains. You'd think I'd be able to remember my own plumbing - which Phil described, from his time in India - but I must be getting old. Or distracted. Or something. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on February 05, 2017, 10:38:41 AM
This type of water catchment system is in use in the Caribbean and I well remember the concrete catchments on Bermuda as well as the whitewashed roofs which fed water to the cistern under the house. If you ran out of water you had to pay the government to ship you a tanker of water from those reservoirs under the concrete catchments.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 05, 2017, 10:40:36 AM
Chirine,

An interesting question came up in my campaign the other day. I kind of know how I'm going to play it, but was curious if you had ever encountered something similar.
The main party, which has been involved in much "mayhem" over the last year, is finally in a position where they have been noticed by the right person/people. In the last game session they were able to "acquire" enough so that not only are they able to provide frequent and correct inducements, but their deeds have made them a good source of positive PR. They will be offered membership, into a low clan as they are "barbarians," next game session, but they will be out of the game for a few weeks and possibly up to 2 months as they train, study, and learn.
The group has agreed to start a second party as a sort of B Team to supplement the first group and provide ready character replacements should they be needed. The plan is that we will adventure with these new characters until the "old guys" finish their training, and go back to them  every so often.
One of the players wants to play a warrior who will be a clan enforcer, someone who discretely acts as the clan's muscle, internal and external, and does the dirty work. Breaking kneecaps was one of the examples he provided.
Have you ever encountered or heard of such an individual during your travels in Tsolyanu?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 05, 2017, 11:43:54 AM
"And a more general call out to the thread, I'm totally game for trouble ideas to land these fine young Tsolyani into."

Let's see.
We recently found this in the clan archives. It seems grandpa Serqu acquired the rights to some land about 50 years ago. Cousin Trinesh is getting married next month and the clan would like to give him a present. Go and check out the property, and give our regards to the Governor while you're there.

We recently acquired certain items, and would like them delivered to our temple in Mrelu. Accompany the caravans and make sure they arrive safely. Oh, BTW, others are interested in preventing them from arriving safely in Mrelu.

Does this help?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 05, 2017, 11:47:48 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;944065
Yes, indeed; inquiring minds want to know...

Great suggestion!!!


Do tell....:)

Any thing is possible on Tekumel.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 05, 2017, 12:02:28 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;944063
Either this, or I do a rummage sale in the back yard. What with the Missus getting the entire archive, including all the printed materials, scanned and onto disc, there's not a lot of reason why I need to keep multiple paper copies of everything. I have several 'working copies' of the archive, one at my desk and one in the game room, and the digital media take up a tiny fraction of the paper archive's occupancy.

Of course, the miniatures collection is what it is; luckily for me, I did plan for expansion space for this when I built the furniture for the game room over a decade ago. (As Gronan can tell you, I like to have back-up plans for my back-up plans.) All of the figures live in the game room, with the large/bulky/rarely used items in the game shed. Books that I think important to gaming live in the game room as well.

It turns out that the Resident Daughter does not need the little dorm room fridge that used to be in the game lounge, so my task for today is to get it back into the basement and running again. I'm also moving the two Sakbe road sets out into their new crates and homes, as well as moving the crate with Castle Tilketl to the same storage. So, busy day ahead! :)

Chirine, please check your PM.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 05, 2017, 12:11:52 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;944175
This type of water catchment system is in use in the Caribbean and I well remember the concrete catchments on Bermuda as well as the whitewashed roofs which fed water to the cistern under the house. If you ran out of water you had to pay the government to ship you a tanker of water from those reservoirs under the concrete catchments.


Ahh. I have seen similar things in the Dominican Republic as well. Also where my wife is from in the countryside(used to be a dirt road until recently; where some people have dirt floors and homes of made of sticks, literally) people have large barrels that they cover with cloth to catch rainwater directly from the sky and sometimes from the roof. They live walking distance from a river as well. Very generous people for the most part, but they love to gossip!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on February 05, 2017, 01:14:35 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;944060
What have those Stability worshipers discovered with their digging around on their fief and how can it be used to further the Governor's career?
=


I love it!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;944064
I like it. I'd suggest that your 'Indiana Jones' be a scholar-priest, probably of Ksarul, Hry'y, or their cohorts in keeping with the rest of the party.

I'd suggest Mrelu. The Disposer of Meku was a clan-cousin of mine, back in the early 2360s, and not any friend of the dark trinity. Mrelu is also more Ksarul country, with a lot of clans devoted to him. I can get you more information, too; it'll have to be later today or tomorrow, as I need time to dig it out.. (You can always call me on my cell phone; I've sent you the number via a private message.) There is not a lot of published material on either city, sorry to say, but I'll see what I can find for you.


And thank you as well.  Will bring it up to said person.   and Mrelu it is, it certainly makes sense.  And since their clan is an Empire Wide one without any real affiliation otherwise, gives them a good 'in' for traveling elsewhere is my thought too.

I look forward to learning what there is to know about Mrelu, and finding out what else we're going to see in play as the players do what players do.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 05, 2017, 03:14:00 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;944135
Well, I think it should be; that's why we used to call them 'adventures', and the hobby 'adventure gaming'.

Indeed, Uncle:)!
That's also the reason why I keep saying that I don't see a difference between an adventure and a slice of life* book. Well, there isn't if we're following the right of a good character, anyway;).
And the above is why I think that half the issues of RPGs are due to people playing boring characters.

*Of course, a slice of life on Tekumel is probably enough of an adventure to last someone from our time a whole lifetime:p!

Quote
Like watching "John Carter"; lots of adventure to be had, and I could have done without the heaps of existential angst that seemed to have been added to make the film more 'relevant'. Sill had lots of fun, through! :)

There was existential angst in the movie, Uncle:D?
I mean, yeah, when I was watching it, I was kinda feeling an existential anger. But it was due to "damned Disney didn't follow the novel, and everything they changed was to the movie's detriment, even the dresscode!"
I might have uttered the above phrase once or twice while watching the movie, I suspect;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 05, 2017, 05:37:39 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;944175
This type of water catchment system is in use in the Caribbean and I well remember the concrete catchments on Bermuda as well as the whitewashed roofs which fed water to the cistern under the house. If you ran out of water you had to pay the government to ship you a tanker of water from those reservoirs under the concrete catchments.

Yes! There was a recent story on the BBC website about this, if I recall correctly.

There was a somewhat similar set-up at the fortress of Masada, where now-destroyed aqueducts fed rainwater from  the surrounding wadis to a series of huge cisterns below the fortress proper. I think - and you'd have to check for the exact numbers - the excavators figured that the place had enough water in the cisterns for years' worth of siege. Rain that fell on the plateau proper was used to irrigate the crops being grown there, as well as for the bathhouse in the north palace.

"Our ancestors," as Phil used to say, "were a lot smarter then we usually give them credit for."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 05, 2017, 05:46:33 PM
Chirine,

When you were doing dungeon crawls in Phil's games how was mapping handled? Was there a dedicated mapper who recorded the size and shape of the various rooms and corriders on a piece of graph paper, or was the dungeon map laid out on the table and the party indicated where they were going? That is, did the party know the general layout of the dungeon, but not the specific contents of the rooms?
Or did Phil describe what you encountered and the players jotted down quick notes for future reference, as more detailed mapping was not really the way things were done?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 05, 2017, 05:53:02 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;944190
Ahh. I have seen similar things in the Dominican Republic as well. Also where my wife is from in the countryside(used to be a dirt road until recently; where some people have dirt floors and homes of made of sticks, literally) people have large barrels that they cover with cloth to catch rainwater directly from the sky and sometimes from the roof. They live walking distance from a river as well. Very generous people for the most part, but they love to gossip!!!

H:0)

Agreed - and you could do much worse then use those folks as models for the rural people your PCs will be meeting, too - all that gossip is very useful! (Mayhem usually ensues, too.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 05, 2017, 05:54:39 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;944194
I love it!

And thank you as well.  Will bring it up to said person.   and Mrelu it is, it certainly makes sense.  And since their clan is an Empire Wide one without any real affiliation otherwise, gives them a good 'in' for traveling elsewhere is my thought too.

I look forward to learning what there is to know about Mrelu, and finding out what else we're going to see in play as the players do what players do.

Yep; it's a good scenario!

You're welcome. I'll work on what I have; it may take a bit, as I did out the house from under 5th Daughter's boxes.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 05, 2017, 06:07:43 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;944200
Indeed, Uncle:)!
That's also the reason why I keep saying that I don't see a difference between an adventure and a slice of life* book. Well, there isn't if we're following the right of a good character, anyway;).
And the above is why I think that half the issues of RPGs are due to people playing boring characters.

*Of course, a slice of life on Tekumel is probably enough of an adventure to last someone from our time a whole lifetime:p!

There was existential angst in the movie, Uncle:D?
I mean, yeah, when I was watching it, I was kinda feeling an existential anger. But it was due to "damned Disney didn't follow the novel, and everything they changed was to the movie's detriment, even the dresscode!"
I might have uttered the above phrase once or twice while watching the movie, I suspect;)!

I'd agree with this. I am trying to keep the right balance with this in my book, for exactly the reason you give! The most similar thing I can think of in the historical genre would be Robert Carey's stirring account of being one of the Border Wardens - I forget which March, sorry - and which is extensively covered in G. F. Frasier's "The Steel Bonnets". Which, I might mention, was kind of our basic guide to life on the frontiers of the Seal Imperium. No reivers on horses, but lots of them on foot...

I thought that the added backstory stuff about Captain Carter's dead family was a bit much, and I thought that it slowed down the action with too much 'relevant angst'. But, I assumed that Marketing told them that they needed this kind of thing to enhance the appeal to the market demographic.

Costuming-wise, I thought that the film was just fine, given that it was being done in the US for a US market by a US company; that automatically imposes some decisions on the director and costumer. So, I'd say that I liked the look of the film; I can always play the games with my Bronze Age figures, which look the part as given in the book.

Now, I do have to say that I have gotten some grief for my miniatures - Tekumel, Ancient Egyptian, and Barsoom - from people. These days, one is better safe then sorry, and with the high costs of lawyers, after taking legal advice I have instituted a policy of no gamers under 18, and no gamers under 16 (the local age of consent) unless accompanied by their parent or guardian.

What can I say; I live in a very odd country.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 05, 2017, 06:25:32 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;944221
Chirine,

When you were doing dungeon crawls in Phil's games how was mapping handled? Was there a dedicated mapper who recorded the size and shape of the various rooms and corriders on a piece of graph paper, or was the dungeon map laid out on the table and the party indicated where they were going? That is, did the party know the general layout of the dungeon, but not the specific contents of the rooms?
Or did Phil describe what you encountered and the players jotted down quick notes for future reference, as more detailed mapping was not really the way things were done?

Shemek

Usually, I took general notes, and then did what little mapping that we did as a party - mostly because I always had a graph paper pad in my gaming bag, and lots of pencils as well. I'd have to duplicate the map that resulted so Phil could have a copy, and I also had to make copies of anything he generated during a game.

Phil hated to show us anything; we got to see the full Jakalla underworld map a few times, but he's whisk the thing way from you if you tried to make notes. Everything had to be done by direct exploration; if you sent some people down there, all you'd get back were verbal descriptions, which was nothing we'd care to risk our lives on. Phil would say "the corridor is about so-and-so long, branches to the left and right at the end" and that's what you'd get unless you asked pointed questions. We never knew the general layout of anything, unless we'd been there, and we know what was in a room because we had been in them and took notes. So, my maps and notes got to be pretty important; Phil was also - like all the local GMs of that day - intellectually honest, so any 'changes' between out maps and his were either our errors or the result of third-party actions. Phil, like Dave Arneson, used to get a lot of laughs over the major mistakes people would make mapping and get a little cranky when I was there to do it - my maps always tended to be very reliable and detailed.

I do think, though, that this was because I always approached mapping like I was going to make a model of the place being explored; we did that a few times, with my collection of wooden blocks, and some very fun games resulted. I still game this way, using the generic tiles that I made; I lay out the tiles, and when done I make the map of the place and game off the map until the players actually go into the room or corridor.

This kinds of hearkens back to the debate about using miniatures in RPGs; we did, quite often, but we never let 'the perfect set-up' get in the way of fast and furious game play. We'd use dice to mark doors, imagine the walls in our heads, and place the figures so that we had a 'tactical display; of where everybody was in the situation. No rulers, no templates, no micro-measuring, just playing the game. Did it 'ruin immersion'? No, not for us, as a lot of what we did was all 'theater of the mind'. The figures were just fun to have - "That's me!" :)

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 05, 2017, 07:39:15 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;944177
Chirine,

An interesting question came up in my campaign the other day. I kind of know how I'm going to play it, but was curious if you had ever encountered something similar.
The main party, which has been involved in much "mayhem" over the last year, is finally in a position where they have been noticed by the right person/people. In the last game session they were able to "acquire" enough so that not only are they able to provide frequent and correct inducements, but their deeds have made them a good source of positive PR. They will be offered membership, into a low clan as they are "barbarians," next game session, but they will be out of the game for a few weeks and possibly up to 2 months as they train, study, and learn.
The group has agreed to start a second party as a sort of B Team to supplement the first group and provide ready character replacements should they be needed. The plan is that we will adventure with these new characters until the "old guys" finish their training, and go back to them  every so often.
One of the players wants to play a warrior who will be a clan enforcer, someone who discretely acts as the clan's muscle, internal and external, and does the dirty work. Breaking kneecaps was one of the examples he provided.
Have you ever encountered or heard of such an individual during your travels in Tsolyanu?

Shemek.


I'm sorry; it's been a long day of moving boxes and crates, and I almost missed this.

Great plan; we had some alternate PCs for a while, so Phil could take a break from the 'main' campaign. I had to do a lot of new figures for them - I still have them. Go with it; you'll find it fun to play out.

Yes, indeed, from both sides of it. I'd occasionally get a 'friendly visit' from 'a member of the clan of ... ' who would indicate that somebody was unhappy with me - or that I was unhappy with somebody else. Normally, the 'enforcer; is a very smart and polished person, who is trusted to negotiate the issues before having to thump somebody. Said thumping can attract Imperial attention, which is most unwise. So, it's perfect for a player or group of players. (Mayhem ensues. As usual.) I used to do this same job, 'visiting people' on behalf of the Imperium and the Tlakotani dynasty. It did make for interesting adventures... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 05, 2017, 09:15:26 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;944235
Usually, I took general notes, and then did what little mapping that we did as a party - mostly because I always had a graph paper pad in my gaming bag, and lots of pencils as well. I'd have to duplicate the map that resulted so Phil could have a copy, and I also had to make copies of anything he generated during a game.

Phil hated to show us anything; we got to see the full Jakalla underworld map a few times, but he's whisk the thing way from you if you tried to make notes. Everything had to be done by direct exploration; if you sent some people down there, all you'd get back were verbal descriptions, which was nothing we'd care to risk our lives on. Phil would say "the corridor is about so-and-so long, branches to the left and right at the end" and that's what you'd get unless you asked pointed questions. We never knew the general layout of anything, unless we'd been there, and we know what was in a room because we had been in them and took notes. So, my maps and notes got to be pretty important; Phil was also - like all the local GMs of that day - intellectually honest, so any 'changes' between out maps and his were either our errors or the result of third-party actions. Phil, like Dave Arneson, used to get a lot of laughs over the major mistakes people would make mapping and get a little cranky when I was there to do it - my maps always tended to be very reliable and detailed.

I do think, though, that this was because I always approached mapping like I was going to make a model of the place being explored; we did that a few times, with my collection of wooden blocks, and some very fun games resulted. I still game this way, using the generic tiles that I made; I lay out the tiles, and when done I make the map of the place and game off the map until the players actually go into the room or corridor.

This kinds of hearkens back to the debate about using miniatures in RPGs; we did, quite often, but we never let 'the perfect set-up' get in the way of fast and furious game play. We'd use dice to mark doors, imagine the walls in our heads, and place the figures so that we had a 'tactical display; of where everybody was in the situation. No rulers, no templates, no micro-measuring, just playing the game. Did it 'ruin immersion'? No, not for us, as a lot of what we did was all 'theater of the mind'. The figures were just fun to have - "That's me!" :)

Does this help?

Perfect, and thanks for the insight. I usually don't show the map either, but I was curious if this was typical or atypical, as I can't think of one DM who did show the players the map, back in the day, but apparently it's not too unusual to do so today. Just curious..

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 05, 2017, 09:25:20 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;944253
I'm sorry; it's been a long day of moving boxes and crates, and I almost missed this.

Great plan; we had some alternate PCs for a while, so Phil could take a break from the 'main' campaign. I had to do a lot of new figures for them - I still have them. Go with it; you'll find it fun to play out.

Yes, indeed, from both sides of it. I'd occasionally get a 'friendly visit' from 'a member of the clan of ... ' who would indicate that somebody was unhappy with me - or that I was unhappy with somebody else. Normally, the 'enforcer; is a very smart and polished person, who is trusted to negotiate the issues before having to thump somebody. Said thumping can attract Imperial attention, which is most unwise. So, it's perfect for a player or group of players. (Mayhem ensues. As usual.) I used to do this same job, 'visiting people' on behalf of the Imperium and the Tlakotani dynasty. It did make for interesting adventures... :)

Thanks again and no worries Chirine. Hopefully you are all finished and can relax.
This does sound fun and I'll mention it to the group. I think we all had some type of rough thug in mind, and not someone polished and urbane. Excellent!

If I may ask who was your alternate PC? Did you play another priest or follower of Vimuhla?


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 05, 2017, 10:20:30 PM
When we first started Phil did NOT show us the map at ALL.  He learned how to run dungeon adventures from me, after all.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on February 06, 2017, 04:15:40 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;944219
Yes! There was a recent story on the BBC website about this, if I recall correctly.

There was a somewhat similar set-up at the fortress of Masada, where now-destroyed aqueducts fed rainwater from  the surrounding wadis to a series of huge cisterns below the fortress proper. I think - and you'd have to check for the exact numbers - the excavators figured that the place had enough water in the cisterns for years' worth of siege. Rain that fell on the plateau proper was used to irrigate the crops being grown there, as well as for the bathhouse in the north palace.

"Our ancestors," as Phil used to say, "were a lot smarter then we usually give them credit for."


I often think that this was more common than we think. Every European castle had it's own well deep in the inner stronghold but all those fortified places in the Middle East and Africa (e.g. Great Zimbabwe) must have had a way of obtaining water when under attack and while a well driven down to an underground aquifer might be possible some form of catchment area (roofs) channeling water into underground cisterns must have been a more common feature that our western European focus has made us less aware of.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 06, 2017, 03:48:24 PM
I'm not sure if it's a "western European focus" or a "late 20th to early 21st century urban focus." Though we didn't have a rain barrel I certainly knew what one was by the time I was five or six, and the house I grew up in had a rainwater cistern though it wasn't used.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 06, 2017, 05:25:39 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;944228
I'd agree with this. I am trying to keep the right balance with this in my book, for exactly the reason you give! The most similar thing I can think of in the historical genre would be Robert Carey's stirring account of being one of the Border Wardens - I forget which March, sorry - and which is extensively covered in G. F. Frasier's "The Steel Bonnets". Which, I might mention, was kind of our basic guide to life on the frontiers of the Seal Imperium. No reivers on horses, but lots of them on foot...

I thought that the added backstory stuff about Captain Carter's dead family was a bit much, and I thought that it slowed down the action with too much 'relevant angst'. But, I assumed that Marketing told them that they needed this kind of thing to enhance the appeal to the market demographic.

Costuming-wise, I thought that the film was just fine, given that it was being done in the US for a US market by a US company; that automatically imposes some decisions on the director and costumer. So, I'd say that I liked the look of the film; I can always play the games with my Bronze Age figures, which look the part as given in the book.

Now, I do have to say that I have gotten some grief for my miniatures - Tekumel, Ancient Egyptian, and Barsoom - from people. These days, one is better safe then sorry, and with the high costs of lawyers, after taking legal advice I have instituted a policy of no gamers under 18, and no gamers under 16 (the local age of consent) unless accompanied by their parent or guardian.

What can I say; I live in a very odd country.

I tend to restrict the players to no younger than 18, but that's not for legal reasons. It just makes it easier for the players to relate to each other:).
And yeah, you do live in a somewhat odd place, if you'll forgive me for saying so:D!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;944235
Usually, I took general notes, and then did what little mapping that we did as a party - mostly because I always had a graph paper pad in my gaming bag, and lots of pencils as well. I'd have to duplicate the map that resulted so Phil could have a copy, and I also had to make copies of anything he generated during a game.

Phil hated to show us anything; we got to see the full Jakalla underworld map a few times, but he's whisk the thing way from you if you tried to make notes. Everything had to be done by direct exploration; if you sent some people down there, all you'd get back were verbal descriptions, which was nothing we'd care to risk our lives on. Phil would say "the corridor is about so-and-so long, branches to the left and right at the end" and that's what you'd get unless you asked pointed questions. We never knew the general layout of anything, unless we'd been there, and we know what was in a room because we had been in them and took notes. So, my maps and notes got to be pretty important; Phil was also - like all the local GMs of that day - intellectually honest, so any 'changes' between out maps and his were either our errors or the result of third-party actions. Phil, like Dave Arneson, used to get a lot of laughs over the major mistakes people would make mapping and get a little cranky when I was there to do it - my maps always tended to be very reliable and detailed.

I do think, though, that this was because I always approached mapping like I was going to make a model of the place being explored; we did that a few times, with my collection of wooden blocks, and some very fun games resulted. I still game this way, using the generic tiles that I made; I lay out the tiles, and when done I make the map of the place and game off the map until the players actually go into the room or corridor.

This kinds of hearkens back to the debate about using miniatures in RPGs; we did, quite often, but we never let 'the perfect set-up' get in the way of fast and furious game play. We'd use dice to mark doors, imagine the walls in our heads, and place the figures so that we had a 'tactical display; of where everybody was in the situation. No rulers, no templates, no micro-measuring, just playing the game. Did it 'ruin immersion'? No, not for us, as a lot of what we did was all 'theater of the mind'. The figures were just fun to have - "That's me!" :)

Does this help?

Thank you, this helps a lot!
BTW, did theatre of the mind come naturally to your wargamer players;)?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;944291
When we first started Phil did NOT show us the map at ALL.  He learned how to run dungeon adventures from me, after all.

Did he start doing so later, Glorious General?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;944489
I'm not sure if it's a "western European focus" or a "late 20th to early 21st century urban focus." Though we didn't have a rain barrel I certainly knew what one was by the time I was five or six, and the house I grew up in had a rainwater cistern though it wasn't used.

It's the time focus. I knew the same thing at an early age, despite being born in the 80ies in a major city centre.
Admittedly, I knew it from reading, but still:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 06, 2017, 05:32:32 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;944277
Perfect, and thanks for the insight. I usually don't show the map either, but I was curious if this was typical or atypical, as I can't think of one DM who did show the players the map, back in the day, but apparently it's not too unusual to do so today. Just curious..

Shemek


Normally, we did not, and I normally still do not show 'the map' to players, even when doing the game in miniature - I cover the rooms with black cloth or paper to hide them from the players until they get explored.

However, once I got the digital version of the Jakalla underworld map, I started showing players that first level map just to save time. In my experience, mapping these days seems to dramatically slow down the game play, as the GM and the players seem to be really worried about 'getting it right'. I watched a GM at Gary Con struggling to help his players do their map, and finally just drew it out for them on their pad of paper. I think this 'getting it right' issue may stem from D&D 4E, where you seem to need almost boardgame accuracy to play the game. I don't play that way, and we didn't back in the day, either.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 06, 2017, 05:37:17 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;944281
Thanks again and no worries Chirine. Hopefully you are all finished and can relax.
This does sound fun and I'll mention it to the group. I think we all had some type of rough thug in mind, and not someone polished and urbane. Excellent!

If I may ask who was your alternate PC? Did you play another priest or follower of Vimuhla?


Shemek

You're welcome! I still have to get ready for a stint at the local game convention, where I promised Bill Hoyt that I'd let him use one of my trade show booth Skyline displays for his 'History of Twin Cities Gaming' display in the hotel lobby. He's had some stuff fall through, and I have to take up the slack for the show.

I had a female version of Chirine for  while, due to yet another of the Undying Wizards getting meddlesome, and a Priest of the One of Light from Saa Alliqui for when we went off on an adventure with Vrisa to her homeland.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 06, 2017, 05:39:31 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;944291
When we first started Phil did NOT show us the map at ALL.  He learned how to run dungeon adventures from me, after all.


Yep; that was the custom, back in the day. We knew the map existed, from seeing it lying on the shelf, but he'd make sure to hide it when we looked at it...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 06, 2017, 05:41:30 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;944415
I often think that this was more common than we think. Every European castle had it's own well deep in the inner stronghold but all those fortified places in the Middle East and Africa (e.g. Great Zimbabwe) must have had a way of obtaining water when under attack and while a well driven down to an underground aquifer might be possible some form of catchment area (roofs) channeling water into underground cisterns must have been a more common feature that our western European focus has made us less aware of.


Agreed, I think; people don't seem to know much about other cultures, and what their own ancestors could do. Whereas Phil, and some of us in the group, were very avid readers of history and would spend hours looking at the plumbing... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 06, 2017, 05:42:45 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;944489
I'm not sure if it's a "western European focus" or a "late 20th to early 21st century urban focus." Though we didn't have a rain barrel I certainly knew what one was by the time I was five or six, and the house I grew up in had a rainwater cistern though it wasn't used.

True. My stepfather was born in a sod house, and I've had to explain what that was to more then a few people - including some of his relatives...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 06, 2017, 05:47:58 PM
From AsenRG:
I tend to restrict the players to no younger than 18, but that's not for legal reasons. It just makes it easier for the players to relate to each other:).
And yeah, you do live in a somewhat odd place, if you'll forgive me for saying so:D!


Understood. I agree with your point of view, based on experience.

Thank you, this helps a lot!
BTW, did theatre of the mind come naturally to your wargamer players;)?


Oh, yes, very much so! Because of the time and budget limitations, we tended to imagine quite a lot in our games, of all kinds. Keep in mind that we operated on a one-week cycle between games, so the build time was short and sweet - we had to think outside the lines, and imagine that the drawing on the table was the Mos Eisley cantina...

Did he start doing so later, Glorious General?

Not really, for me.

It's the time focus. I knew the same thing at an early age, despite being born in the 80ies in a major city centre.
Admittedly, I knew it from reading, but still:D!


Agreed; but you did read!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 06, 2017, 08:31:06 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;944291
When we first started Phil did NOT show us the map at ALL.  He learned how to run dungeon adventures from me, after all.


Cool.
Did Phil observe you DM, or did he play in your campaign? If so, do you remember what character type he played?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 06, 2017, 08:42:00 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;944489
I'm not sure if it's a "western European focus" or a "late 20th to early 21st century urban focus." Though we didn't have a rain barrel I certainly knew what one was by the time I was five or six, and the house I grew up in had a rainwater cistern though it wasn't used.

We also had a rain barrel when I was a kid, before it became the "Green" thing to do, as my dad's hobby was planting a massive vegetable garden every spring. He had quite an elaborate set up, as I recall, and would putter around out there for hours during the summer.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 07, 2017, 05:54:50 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;944512
From AsenRG:

Thank you, this helps a lot!
BTW, did theatre of the mind come naturally to your wargamer players;)?


Oh, yes, very much so! Because of the time and budget limitations, we tended to imagine quite a lot in our games, of all kinds. Keep in mind that we operated on a one-week cycle between games, so the build time was short and sweet - we had to think outside the lines, and imagine that the drawing on the table was the Mos Eisley cantina...
That's interesting, thank you for sharing it:).

Quote
It's the time focus. I knew the same thing at an early age, despite being born in the 80ies in a major city centre.
Admittedly, I knew it from reading, but still:D!


Agreed; but you did read!!!
I tried to imagine what my life would have been without reading.
The words "nasty, brutish and short" popped up in my mind;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 07, 2017, 06:14:16 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;944632
That's interesting, thank you for sharing it:).

I tried to imagine what my life would have been without reading.
The words "nasty, brutish and short" popped up in my mind;)!

I dunno; imagination was always a huge component of our games, back in those far-off days when one couldn't simply pop down to the local game store / e-mail Amazon and get everything you needed for a game 'off the shelf'. Which may be, in some part, why I like Tekumel and the other obscure settings that I like to play in; one has to use one's imagination a lot. In our historical games, though, the same philosophy applied; that little Airfix kit of a tank is the fearsome what-ever-it-is, because I couldn't get a MkIV in time for the game.

So, yes, theater of the mind was always a part of our games, and my ability to astonish people with my models a big part of that.

Agreed. I can't imagine life without my books.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 07, 2017, 09:11:33 PM
Not to mention that the Shermans were 1/87 scale, the Honeys and Mk. Is and IIs were 1/72 scale, and the Grant was 1/76 scale, because THAT'S WHAT WAS AVAILABLE.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 07, 2017, 09:12:23 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;944535
Cool.
Did Phil observe you DM, or did he play in your campaign? If so, do you remember what character type he played?

Shemek

He played in at least two different campaigns, at least one as a fighter (I think a fighter in both but I couldn't swear to it.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 09, 2017, 06:28:21 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;944656
Not to mention that the Shermans were 1/87 scale, the Honeys and Mk. Is and IIs were 1/72 scale, and the Grant was 1/76 scale, because THAT'S WHAT WAS AVAILABLE.

Yes, indeed. No 'official' and 'authorized' lines of merchandise, no 'directed play', no 'sanctioned play', none of that. We, to quote somebody, "made stuff up and had fun." Is it just me, my General, or are those days long gone?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on February 09, 2017, 06:43:54 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;944885
... are those days long gone?

Yes, I believe so.
Now we must only use our imagination in pre-approved ways.
Accept how things are and feel helpless to change them.
If you must imagine, imagine escape not rebellion.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 09, 2017, 02:07:33 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;944885
Yes, indeed. No 'official' and 'authorized' lines of merchandise, no 'directed play', no 'sanctioned play', none of that. We, to quote somebody, "made stuff up and had fun." Is it just me, my General, or are those days long gone?

Not gone, no. However, they are no longer the emphasis of the mainstream path of the hobby.

Just like there are still folks out there who still build model locomotives by starting with brass sheet, bar, and rod stock and carving away everything that doesn't look like a C&NW class R-1 4-6-0, but Model Railroader no longer runs the "Kitchen Table Locomotive" series like they did in the 1950s.

Convenience sells, and the mainstream of any hobby will tend to move towards greater convenience.  You can still build a model airplane out of balsa strips and tissue paper and a drawing, but you can also buy a complete ready to fly radio control plane.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 09, 2017, 05:45:43 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;944888
Yes, I believe so.
Now we must only use our imagination in pre-approved ways.
Accept how things are and feel helpless to change them.
If you must imagine, imagine escape not rebellion.
=


That is the way it seems, from what I've seen at conventions and the local shops. I find it pretty daunting, especially after all this time in the hobby. But then, there may be hope yet...

I had kind of a wild moment the other weekend with the D&D group I'm playing in; we visited Lord Chirine and his family, and the group was astonished at the 'free kreigspiel' / 'open sandbox' play style, where I - the 'deputy GM' - had all the world-setting details at my fingertips, and it was up to them to have an adventure. They did, had a lot of fun, got some goodies, and are thinking about coming back every now and then. They know nothing about the setting, but had fun with it and would like to know more.

I thought that it was pretty fun to run for them, myself. We'll see what develops... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 09, 2017, 05:51:59 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;944927
Not gone, no. However, they are no longer the emphasis of the mainstream path of the hobby.

Just like there are still folks out there who still build model locomotives by starting with brass sheet, bar, and rod stock and carving away everything that doesn't look like a C&NW class R-1 4-6-0, but Model Railroader no longer runs the "Kitchen Table Locomotive" series like they did in the 1950s.

Convenience sells, and the mainstream of any hobby will tend to move towards greater convenience.  You can still build a model airplane out of balsa strips and tissue paper and a drawing, but you can also buy a complete ready to fly radio control plane.

Agreed, on all points. I mean, I do have lots of ready-to-run locomotives and rolling stock, but I still enjoy a bit of scratch-building now and then. I'm just bemused at the people who look at my little efforts on the game table and insist that they could never do anything like that.

Maybe I should start doing paint-and-take sessions? It'd go a long way to clearing out all that unpainted lead that's been piling up for decades. (Although, if the Missus finds that her vintage Ral Partha 'Elfquest' and RAFM 'Dr. Who' figures - in their original TARDIS boxes, no less- have gone missing, I will find myself lovingly immersed in boiling oil in no time flat.) Something to think about...

EDIT: I can see it now: Blue Peter does a Tekumel episode. Auntie Beeb would never be the same again.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 09, 2017, 07:24:14 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;944657
He played in at least two different campaigns, at least one as a fighter (I think a fighter in both but I couldn't swear to it.)

He was a scholar, a gentleman, and a man with a good taste in classes he played, evidently;)!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;944638

Agreed. I can't imagine life without my books.

And it's a good way to set yourself apart from the masses.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;944656
Not to mention that the Shermans were 1/87 scale, the Honeys and Mk. Is and IIs were 1/72 scale, and the Grant was 1/76 scale, because THAT'S WHAT WAS AVAILABLE.


Quote from: chirine ba kal;944885
Yes, indeed. No 'official' and 'authorized' lines of merchandise, no 'directed play', no 'sanctioned play', none of that. We, to quote somebody, "made stuff up and had fun." Is it just me, my General, or are those days long gone?

No sanctioned play here, either.
I still find the idea baffling:).

Quote from: Greentongue;944888
Yes, I believe so.
Now we must only use our imagination in pre-approved ways.
Accept how things are and feel helpless to change them.
If you must imagine, imagine escape not rebellion.
=

I haven't got the memo, though, so I'm going to stick to my old ways;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;944927

Convenience sells, and the mainstream of any hobby will tend to move towards greater convenience.

...I'm afraid you're right.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;944961
That is the way it seems, from what I've seen at conventions and the local shops. I find it pretty daunting, especially after all this time in the hobby. But then, there may be hope yet...

I had kind of a wild moment the other weekend with the D&D group I'm playing in; we visited Lord Chirine and his family, and the group was astonished at the 'free kreigspiel' / 'open sandbox' play style, where I - the 'deputy GM' - had all the world-setting details at my fingertips, and it was up to them to have an adventure. They did, had a lot of fun, got some goodies, and are thinking about coming back every now and then. They know nothing about the setting, but had fun with it and would like to know more.

I thought that it was pretty fun to run for them, myself. We'll see what develops... :)

Great news, Uncle! Keep us informed!
But that's what I kept thinking you should be doing in order to start a group and teach those people the ways of the old masters...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;944962

Maybe I should start doing paint-and-take sessions? It'd go a long way to clearing out all that unpainted lead that's been piling up for decades. (Although, if the Missus finds that her vintage Ral Partha 'Elfquest' and RAFM 'Dr. Who' figures - in their original TARDIS boxes, no less- have gone missing, I will find myself lovingly immersed in boiling oil in no time flat.) Something to think about...

EDIT: I can see it now: Blue Peter does a Tekumel episode. Auntie Beeb would never be the same again.

Damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead, into the boiling oil:D? Or maybe you can just stash the vintage stuff away while doing the "paint-and-take" sessions?
It might not be a bad idea, really - not that I would know much about this business, I've just got my gut feeling!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Xanther on February 09, 2017, 08:16:36 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;944885
Yes, indeed. No 'official' and 'authorized' lines of merchandise, no 'directed play', no 'sanctioned play', none of that. We, to quote somebody, "made stuff up and had fun." Is it just me, my General, or are those days long gone?

No those days live on.  I started doing tabletop RPGs again consistently in 2006 to present after a brief span from 1990-1996, but nothing from 1984-1990; and the golden years of 1978-1984.  For those of us who started in the late 70's, and like minded younger folk, imagination is key, we use broad stroke rule sets so something just "made up" can be "mechanically" implemented in a heart beat, even the most out there stuff is easy to fit in well after some mature and good nature discussion (and inevitable jokes and ribbing).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on February 10, 2017, 04:17:20 AM
This is definitely getting to be Ye Olde Farts thread :-)

Is there anyone regularly posting here that's under 50? I'm sixty-four this year and still gaming like it was 1974 although the miniatures gaming has passed me by (not done any since 2008 as my eyesight no longer holds up to painting stuff).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 10, 2017, 06:40:46 AM
Quote from: Xanther;944980
No those days live on.  I started doing tabletop RPGs again consistently in 2006 to present after a brief span from 1990-1996, but nothing from 1984-1990; and the golden years of 1978-1984.  For those of us who started in the late 70's, and like minded younger folk, imagination is key, we use broad stroke rule sets so something just "made up" can be "mechanically" implemented in a heart beat, even the most out there stuff is easy to fit in well after some mature and good nature discussion (and inevitable jokes and ribbing).
Broad stroke rules that can fit anything is the whole reason I like unified resolution systems:).
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;945003
This is definitely getting to be Ye Olde Farts thread :-)

Is there anyone regularly posting here that's under 50? I'm sixty-four this year and still gaming like it was 1974 although the miniatures gaming has passed me by (not done any since 2008 as my eyesight no longer holds up to painting stuff).

I'm 36, man, and the oldest in my group by at least a few years;). The whole Olde Farts stuff is something that people that hate old school games want others to buy.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 10, 2017, 08:58:03 AM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;945003
This is definitely getting to be Ye Olde Farts thread :-)

Is there anyone regularly posting here that's under 50? I'm sixty-four this year and still gaming like it was 1974 although the miniatures gaming has passed me by (not done any since 2008 as my eyesight no longer holds up to painting stuff).



44 years young!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on February 10, 2017, 03:40:02 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;945003
This is definitely getting to be Ye Olde Farts thread :-)

Is there anyone regularly posting here that's under 50? I'm sixty-four this year and still gaming like it was 1974 although the miniatures gaming has passed me by (not done any since 2008 as my eyesight no longer holds up to painting stuff).

34 here.  Still been a gamer since I was 10.  But obviously a young'un relatively.

And on to Uncle Chirine, any luck on Mrelu sources?  Still got a week to prepare, so not a real hurry, but curious now that I'm emerging from the fugue of being sick as a dog due to my evil sinuses (seriously, I think the single most depressing thing about Tekumel was that even the Lords of Humanspace never cured the common cold!)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 10, 2017, 05:36:17 PM
From AsenRG:
He was a scholar, a gentleman, and a man with a good taste in classes he played, evidently;)!

I'd agree with that; I think he would have done well as a Caliph or Rajah, myself. :)

And it's a good way to set yourself apart from the masses.

Agreed, but it does get lonely when I talk about books that we all had read and considered the basic texts of the hobby - both what's become the 'RPG niche' and the 'wargame niche'. I feel, a lot of the time, that I simply do not speak the same language or share in the same culture as the people that I meet.

No sanctioned play here, either. I still find the idea baffling:).

I've never liked 'tournament play' even way back when the 'national wargaming championships' were being mooted about by a lot of East Coast gamers. (Historical miniatures, to be more precise.) The thing became a marketing ploy to sell more stuff to the masses, especially with the era of GW's big and much-ballyhooed events - which seem to have died out, locally -  designed to get new players into the 'GW Hobby' with massive buy-ins of product a requirement. Thank you, no thank you; the hobby has always been - for me, anyway - all about friends having a good time.

I haven't got the memo, though, so I'm going to stick to my old ways;).

Agreed!!! :)

...I'm afraid you're right.

Which does kind of scare me... :(

Great news, Uncle! Keep us informed!
But that's what I kept thinking you should be doing in order to start a group and teach those people the ways of the old masters...


Well, I don't mind running games; it's getting people to play in them. There seems to be a very real bias against 'in-home' game groups; one ash to be at the local con, or the FLGS, or not at all. We'll see; I am appearing at the local game con as part of an exhibit next weekend, and I may chum the waters a little bit and see what bites.

Damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead, into the boiling oil:D? Or maybe you can just stash the vintage stuff away while doing the "paint-and-take" sessions?
It might not be a bad idea, really - not that I would know much about this business, I've just got my gut feeling!


I have lots and lots of vintage lead I'm willing to part with - I've been at this for some forty years, and there are figures I bought back in 1978 that have yet to get a lick of paint. The issue is that these are Herself's figures, and I have been warned in the bloodiest possible terms what will happen to me if any of them turn up missing. I had to go to quite extreme lengths to convince her that I was not raiding her stock of 'N' gauge locomotives and rolling stock to build my 'OO' scale narrow gauge equipment...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 10, 2017, 05:37:49 PM
Quote from: Xanther;944980
No those days live on.  I started doing tabletop RPGs again consistently in 2006 to present after a brief span from 1990-1996, but nothing from 1984-1990; and the golden years of 1978-1984.  For those of us who started in the late 70's, and like minded younger folk, imagination is key, we use broad stroke rule sets so something just "made up" can be "mechanically" implemented in a heart beat, even the most out there stuff is easy to fit in well after some mature and good nature discussion (and inevitable jokes and ribbing).

I am, if I may say, delighted to hear this!!!  Hurrah!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 10, 2017, 05:46:46 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;945003
This is definitely getting to be Ye Olde Farts thread :-)

Is there anyone regularly posting here that's under 50? I'm sixty-four this year and still gaming like it was 1974 although the miniatures gaming has passed me by (not done any since 2008 as my eyesight no longer holds up to painting stuff).

I'm sorry; I am being a Grumpy Old Man - at the young age of sixty - mostly because I have a bad head cold at the moment and I'm going to be spending all of next weekend sitting in a hotel lobby at the local game convention watching the crowds go by. I'm providing one of my Skyline displays for an exhibit, and I'm going to have to be there mostly to make sure that the laptop I'm having to provide doesn't walk off.

The good news, as far as I am concerned, is that this is the very last time I will ever have to go to a convention - of any kind- while working for someone; any future conventions will be working with someone. (There's a huge difference, as Gronan can tell you all about.) While I am not talking about resurrecting our old 'Akbar and Jeff's Traveling Tekumel Road Show' - the Gods forfend!!! - I have an 'Events Guide' now that spells out in excruciating detail what I can and can not do - and what I will and will not do - for events organizers. One thing that I simply will not do is organize events - been there, done that, still have the left-over T-shirts sitting around.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 10, 2017, 05:52:20 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;945063
34 here.  Still been a gamer since I was 10.  But obviously a young'un relatively.

And on to Uncle Chirine, any luck on Mrelu sources?  Still got a week to prepare, so not a real hurry, but curious now that I'm emerging from the fugue of being sick as a dog due to my evil sinuses (seriously, I think the single most depressing thing about Tekumel was that even the Lords of Humanspace never cured the common cold!)

No, not really; I'm suffering from a massive head cold - I had to take a sick day, the middle of this week - and am simply happy to be home this afternoon.

I'd advise calling me this weekend; I'll be home, and working in the game room all weekend, and I can simply pull stuff off the shelf for you. (Am I correct in that you are not coming down here next weekend for the convention?) That way, I can get a first-hand idea of what you're looking for.

For that matter, if you run into questions during your game, I will be sitting in the hotel lobby (bored out of my skull) and would love to be the disembodied Voice Of The Oracle...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on February 11, 2017, 12:23:28 AM
Unfortunately no on the convention.  Work intervened in... an oddly good and bad way.  Bad in that I don't get to go to the Con. Good in that I get to go to Orlando.  In February.  And will have 40 hours in by Wednesday, and because I can save the company $100 by staying until Sunday get to have 4 extra days in Florida in February without having to pay my plane ticket OR use any Vacation time...

Yeah, not a bad trade off.  A couple friends are meeting me down here and we're gonna have a good time of it.  So no Con of the North this year.  But I'll take this trade any year.

I'll see about a call on this Sunday though, got a nice long drive to go through.  Biggest question will be who the Governor is due to the importance of said governor for the group, and any fun ideas for the rest to boot.  ;)

EDIT: And I totally understand on the headcold.  Given I just missed two days of work, and suffered through two more I probably shouldn't have, due to the same thing.  Miserable things.  See comment about Tekumel not curing them!  That's dark stuff for the bane of human existence!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 11, 2017, 05:40:18 AM
Quote from: Dulahan;945063
(seriously, I think the single most depressing thing about Tekumel was that even the Lords of Humanspace never cured the common cold!)

The Lords of Humanspace were not Nice People:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;945083
From AsenRG:
He was a scholar, a gentleman, and a man with a good taste in classes he played, evidently;)!

I'd agree with that; I think he would have done well as a Caliph or Rajah, myself. :)

Probably, but alas, he didn't get that (from what we know, at least).

Quote
And it's a good way to set yourself apart from the masses.

Agreed, but it does get lonely when I talk about books that we all had read and considered the basic texts of the hobby - both what's become the 'RPG niche' and the 'wargame niche'. I feel, a lot of the time, that I simply do not speak the same language or share in the same culture as the people that I meet.

I always look at this situation differently. It's them who don't speak the same language as me, and they should!
(Being against elitism doesn't mean I'm for people remaining ignorant, quite the contrary!)

Quote
No sanctioned play here, either. I still find the idea baffling:).

I've never liked 'tournament play' even way back when the 'national wargaming championships' were being mooted about by a lot of East Coast gamers. (Historical miniatures, to be more precise.) The thing became a marketing ploy to sell more stuff to the masses, especially with the era of GW's big and much-ballyhooed events - which seem to have died out, locally -  designed to get new players into the 'GW Hobby' with massive buy-ins of product a requirement. Thank you, no thank you; the hobby has always been - for me, anyway - all about friends having a good time.

I can see the value of marketing ploys...for the sellers.
I can't see it for me, though.

Quote
I haven't got the memo, though, so I'm going to stick to my old ways;).

Agreed!!! :)


Quote
...I'm afraid you're right.

Which does kind of scare me... :(

I don't get scared, but it sure is kinda depressing.

Quote
Great news, Uncle! Keep us informed!
But that's what I kept thinking you should be doing in order to start a group and teach those people the ways of the old masters...


Well, I don't mind running games; it's getting people to play in them. There seems to be a very real bias against 'in-home' game groups; one ash to be at the local con, or the FLGS, or not at all. We'll see; I am appearing at the local game con as part of an exhibit next weekend, and I may chum the waters a little bit and see what bites.

Chum those waters. Kill any "approved games" crocodiles that appear, and take their stuff - they tend to have nice stuff (skin and teeth from the crocodiles; dice from the "approved games" ones).

Quote
Damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead, into the boiling oil:D? Or maybe you can just stash the vintage stuff away while doing the "paint-and-take" sessions?
It might not be a bad idea, really - not that I would know much about this business, I've just got my gut feeling!


I have lots and lots of vintage lead I'm willing to part with - I've been at this for some forty years, and there are figures I bought back in 1978 that have yet to get a lick of paint. The issue is that these are Herself's figures, and I have been warned in the bloodiest possible terms what will happen to me if any of them turn up missing. I had to go to quite extreme lengths to convince her that I was not raiding her stock of 'N' gauge locomotives and rolling stock to build my 'OO' scale narrow gauge equipment...

Well, just stick a low price on it (price of the mini, shipping included, plus using your paint, and your time - factor in the cleaning, too, it will be necessary). Then you can actually use new minis, not hers, and people would basically pay you to paint a new mini (without you needing to find storage space for it:D)!
I think that would be good for your nerves, am I wrong here;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on February 11, 2017, 09:52:57 AM
Quote from: Dulahan;945132
...  staying until Sunday get to have 4 extra days in Florida in February without having to pay my plane ticket OR use any Vacation time...


Since I live in Orlando, I can say that you picked a pretty good time to drop by.

How much social interaction do you expect in your game, since you have people new to the setting?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 11, 2017, 10:15:10 PM
Chirine,

Just wondering, does Hekellu have an Underworld? If so, is there anything that you can tell us about it?
Also, who was the governor before you took over?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on February 11, 2017, 11:45:08 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;945155
Since I live in Orlando, I can say that you picked a pretty good time to drop by.

How much social interaction do you expect in your game, since you have people new to the setting?
=

I honestly don't know yet.  I've only gamed with two of the people before.  They're both heavy into social things.  But yeah, that's going to be an experience on its own.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 12, 2017, 09:04:32 AM
Quote from: Dulahan;945132
Unfortunately no on the convention.  Work intervened in... an oddly good and bad way.  Bad in that I don't get to go to the Con. Good in that I get to go to Orlando.  In February.  And will have 40 hours in by Wednesday, and because I can save the company $100 by staying until Sunday get to have 4 extra days in Florida in February without having to pay my plane ticket OR use any Vacation time...

Yeah, not a bad trade off.  A couple friends are meeting me down here and we're gonna have a good time of it.  So no Con of the North this year.  But I'll take this trade any year.

I'll see about a call on this Sunday though, got a nice long drive to go through.  Biggest question will be who the Governor is due to the importance of said governor for the group, and any fun ideas for the rest to boot.  ;)

EDIT: And I totally understand on the headcold.  Given I just missed two days of work, and suffered through two more I probably shouldn't have, due to the same thing.  Miserable things.  See comment about Tekumel not curing them!  That's dark stuff for the bane of human existence!


Very cool! My grandparents used to have their summer home just north of there, in the little town of Ponce de Leon Springs; I was once interviewed by the local paper, as a curiosity from out-of-state. I still have friends down there who have connections to The Mouse, and we see them every now and then. Have a great time!!!

I'll be here; pottering around in the game room, putting stuff away while I do the laundry, so plenty of time to talk.

Phil's database shows the Governor of Mrelu as being Lord Tettukeshi Choynga of the Clan of the Red Sun; 16th level, 65 years old, Avanthe worshipper. He is, if I recall, a pretty decent guy; a career administrator, very skilled in manipulating the levers of power, and well-liked in Avanthar for being solidly reliable. Like a lot of Avanthe worshippers, supports Princess Ma'in politically due to her long-standing connections to that temple.

The cold is better; wore a mask to work for two days, to keep breathing the warm, moist air, and it really helped. The Missus set up a humidifier in our bedroom, and that's made sleeping a lot easier. Got a lot done yesterday - the van's all packed and loaded for the convention - and I'm enjoying having the day off... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 12, 2017, 09:16:14 AM
From AsenRG:
The Lords of Humanspace were not Nice People:).
There's an understatement!!! :)

Probably, but alas, he didn't get that (from what we know, at least).

 No, he did play one in his Crusader-era campaign, though.

I always look at this situation differently. It's them who don't speak the same language as me, and they should!
(Being against elitism doesn't mean I'm for people remaining ignorant, quite the contrary!)


I'd agree with this. One of the very nicest things I've ever had happen to me occurred yesterday; I was given a standing invitation to join any of the D&D groups that play at The Source as a player. I guess I'm considered some sort of Elder Statesman, and people really enjoyed improving their game using some of the 'lessons' and anecdotes that I come up with. I'm looking forward to it; I'm now on the mailing list for their games, and will spend a Saturday or two a month imparting my hard-won experience... :)

I can see the value of marketing ploys...for the sellers. I can't see it for me, though.

Agreed. It's not a play style I like, but I can understand it from a business standpoint.

I don't get scared, but it sure is kinda depressing.

Very agreed!!!

Chum those waters. Kill any "approved games" crocodiles that appear, and take their stuff - they tend to have nice stuff (skin and teeth from the crocodiles; dice from the "approved games" ones).

Yep. Luckily, I am not playing in anything like that; this set of players is all about the challenge and the run. And they've indicated that a return trip to see Lord Chirine and his family is being considered! Wow! :)

Well, just stick a low price on it (price of the mini, shipping included, plus using your paint, and your time - factor in the cleaning, too, it will be necessary). Then you can actually use new minis, not hers, and people would basically pay you to paint a new mini (without you needing to find storage space for it:D)!
I think that would be good for your nerves, am I wrong here;)?[/QUOTE]

It's a thought. I usually run paint-and-takes by letting people pick a primed figure, then learning how I paint them by painting it themselves; they get to keep the figure afterwards, and I like to hand out cards with the name of the company that did the figure. What I'm trying to do is show people that anyone can paint figures, and that they don't have to be a Da Vinci or anything. I've got so much spare metal lying around, it's no cost to me; same on the paint, which was all paid for decades ago.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 12, 2017, 09:35:18 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;945197
Chirine,

Just wondering, does Hekellu have an Underworld? If so, is there anything that you can tell us about it?
Also, who was the governor before you took over?

Shemek.

It does, and it's really wet. It's below the level of the lake, and the closer you get to the surface shoreline the corridors get more and more full of water. It's a real challenge, as you get all the usual underworld creatures, plus all the unusual water creatures; I'd rate it as about twice as tough as Jakalla, and after a few sessions of this we tried to stay out out of the thing. We did find some pretty amazing stuff, under the ruined Old Palace, like the standards of the local (and forgotten) Dlamelish legion, Translucent Emerald (32nd Mediums, I think) and a very - and I do mean very - big shock under the temple of Vimuhla. Which was one of Phil's oldest in-jokes, and which I finally 'got' after talking to a Islamic scholar. Decades later, and Phil still has the ability to surprise and delight.

The previous Governor was (again, in Phil's database) Lord Ssunim hi Chrasgel, of the Clan of the Grey Cloak, worships Ketengku, 32 years old, 16th level. He disappeared under very odd circumstances, and after Avanthar stopped getting messages from him they sent out my Governor, Lord Takodai hi Vriddi (Vriddi clan, Vimuhla, 14th level, 50 years old), and after he took off into the hills to deal with the Young Master, I got the hot seat as Acting Governor - normally, Avanthar would have sent out somebody pretty senior; I am just not senior enough to be more then the guy who does the dirty work - and that poor guy arrived shortly after the Tsolyani civil war started and things really went in the crapper. He eventually got killed when the Young Master took the city, fighting to the last in the ruins of the New Palace. He and his guardsmen took a lot of the tribesmen with them, which is why the Young Master has been pretty quiet since. Nobody knows what happened to his wife and two teen-aged daughters; they were last seen in the company of some Tsolyani soldiers as the palace was stormed and the Governor fought to the last.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 12, 2017, 09:36:02 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;945197
Chirine,

Just wondering, does Hekellu have an Underworld? If so, is there anything that you can tell us about it?
Also, who was the governor before you took over?

Shemek.


It does, and it's really wet. It's below the level of the lake, and the closer you get to the surface shoreline the corridors get more and more full of water. It's a real challenge, as you get all the usual underworld creatures, plus all the unusual water creatures; I'd rate it as about twice as tough as Jakalla, and after a few sessions of this we tried to stay out out of the thing. We did find some pretty amazing stuff, under the ruined Old Palace, like the standards of the local (and forgotten) Dlamelish legion, Translucent Emerald (32nd Mediums, I think) and a very - and I do mean very - big shock under the temple of Vimuhla. Which was one of Phil's oldest in-jokes, and which I finally 'got' after talking to a Islamic scholar. Decades later, and Phil still has the ability to surprise and delight.

The previous Governor was (again, in Phil's database) Lord Ssunim hi Chrasgel, of the Clan of the Grey Cloak, worships Ketengku, 32 years old, 16th level. He disappeared under very odd circumstances, and after Avanthar stopped getting messages from him they sent out my Governor, Lord Takodai hi Vriddi (Vriddi clan, Vimuhla, 14th level, 50 years old), and after he took off into the hills to deal with the Young Master, I got the hot seat as Acting Governor - normally, Avanthar would have sent out somebody pretty senior; I am just not senior enough to be more then the guy who does the dirty work - and that poor guy arrived shortly after the Tsolyani civil war started and things really went in the crapper. He eventually got killed when the Young Master took the city, fighting to the last in the ruins of the New Palace. He and his guardsmen took a lot of the tribesmen with them, which is why the Young Master has been pretty quiet since. Nobody knows what happened to his wife and two teen-aged daughters; they were last seen in the company of some Tsolyani soldiers as the palace was stormed and the Governor fought to the last.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 12, 2017, 10:53:39 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;945259
It does, and it's really wet. It's below the level of the lake, and the closer you get to the surface shoreline the corridors get more and more full of water. It's a real challenge, as you get all the usual underworld creatures, plus all the unusual water creatures; I'd rate it as about twice as tough as Jakalla, and after a few sessions of this we tried to stay out out of the thing. We did find some pretty amazing stuff, under the ruined Old Palace, like the standards of the local (and forgotten) Dlamelish legion, Translucent Emerald (32nd Mediums, I think) and a very - and I do mean very - big shock under the temple of Vimuhla. Which was one of Phil's oldest in-jokes, and which I finally 'got' after talking to a Islamic scholar. Decades later, and Phil still has the ability to surprise and delight.

The previous Governor was (again, in Phil's database) Lord Ssunim hi Chrasgel, of the Clan of the Grey Cloak, worships Ketengku, 32 years old, 16th level. He disappeared under very odd circumstances, and after Avanthar stopped getting messages from him they sent out my Governor, Lord Takodai hi Vriddi (Vriddi clan, Vimuhla, 14th level, 50 years old), and after he took off into the hills to deal with the Young Master, I got the hot seat as Acting Governor - normally, Avanthar would have sent out somebody pretty senior; I am just not senior enough to be more then the guy who does the dirty work - and that poor guy arrived shortly after the Tsolyani civil war started and things really went in the crapper. He eventually got killed when the Young Master took the city, fighting to the last in the ruins of the New Palace. He and his guardsmen took a lot of the tribesmen with them, which is why the Young Master has been pretty quiet since. Nobody knows what happened to his wife and two teen-aged daughters; they were last seen in the company of some Tsolyani soldiers as the palace was stormed and the Governor fought to the last.


That's great! Thanks for the info.
The Hekellu Underworld sounds intriguing, and just what I'm looking for. I seem to recall from one of Phil's (?) posts on the Blue Room that this city was an important (primary?) staging area for the Empire's eastern trade routes in Engsvanyalli times. This will give me a lot of freedom and flexibility when mapping out the "dungeon."

One more question, in what year did this take place, i.e., when was the governor Lord Ssunim appointed to office, and when did you and Lord Takodai go to Hekellu to investigate? It predates Dhichune's usurpation of the Petal Throne?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 12, 2017, 11:16:15 AM
Chirine,

I also have some questions about Baron Ald.
1. Which legion did he command while in Tsolyani service?
2. When did he "fall out" with the Imperium, and what caused him to leave Tsolyanu.
3. Was he a former boon companion of Emperor Hirkane before he ascended to the Petal Throne?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 12, 2017, 11:33:21 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;945265
Chirine,

I also have some questions about Baron Ald.
1. Which legion did he command while in Tsolyani service?
2. When did he "fall out" with the Imperium, and what caused him to leave Tsolyanu.
3. Was he a former boon companion of Emperor Hirkane before he ascended to the Petal Throne?

Shemek


Lord Shemek, ha...If I were the Baron, I too would be very upset with the Empire after my loyal service. I will let Uncle answer as he knows best...I find the Baron an interesting character. Ald's fair in Love and War...Be well.

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 12, 2017, 11:43:22 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;945267
Lord Shemek, ha...If I were the Baron, I too would be very upset with the Empire after my loyal service. I will let Uncle answer as he knows best...I find the Baron an interesting character. Ald's fair in Love and War...Be well.

H;0)


Mighty Hrugga,

Are you saying Ald's well that ends well? :p

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 12, 2017, 01:40:18 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;945268
Mighty Hrugga,

Are you saying Ald's well that ends well? :p

Shemek


Friend, not so sure in this case...Uncle knows best!!! :D

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 12, 2017, 02:07:33 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;945264
That's great! Thanks for the info.
The Hekellu Underworld sounds intriguing, and just what I'm looking for. I seem to recall from one of Phil's (?) posts on the Blue Room that this city was an important (primary?) staging area for the Empire's eastern trade routes in Engsvanyalli times. This will give me a lot of freedom and flexibility when mapping out the "dungeon."

One more question, in what year did this take place, i.e., when was the governor Lord Ssunim appointed to office, and when did you and Lord Takodai go to Hekellu to investigate? It predates Dhichune's usurpation of the Petal Throne?

Shemek


Yep; it's an odd Underworld, as they go on Tekumel, because it's all mostly one flat level that's pretty close to the surface. Any stairways leading down end either in water-logged dead ends - you'd need diving gear to explore them - or in what I can only describe as 'dry upside-down islands' of small dry areas that are usually a lot better built and maintained then the rest of the place. Which means that they are also a lot more active and populated, which is why I thought that the place was more of a challenge then Jakalla is.

Hekellu was a huge trade center, being at the gateway to the hinterlands, and being on the lake. So, lots of ancient activity, and lots of ruins and stuff to explore. Mayhem always ensued, despite our usually having a lot of troops.

Ah, beginning of the 2360s, into 2363 or so; this was indeed right before the coup. Lord Ssunim had been in office for years, he came in with the original creation of the 1,500 NPCs that Phil did in 1974 / 2354. We had to fight our way into town, things had gotten so bad.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 12, 2017, 02:18:11 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;945265
Chirine,

I also have some questions about Baron Ald.
1. Which legion did he command while in Tsolyani service?
2. When did he "fall out" with the Imperium, and what caused him to leave Tsolyanu.
3. Was he a former boon companion of Emperor Hirkane before he ascended to the Petal Throne?

Shemek


This is in EPT, I think. Let me look...

Nope; It's all in S&G I, The Sourcebook, section 1.381:

Scarlet Plume, 19th Imperial Heavy Infantry;

Political intrigue; they hung his and his legion's ass out to dry at Kaidrach Field;

Not really, no, not of Hirkane; of Kettukal, actually.

He's also a 'friend of the family', being Vrisa's clan-brother. So, we go back a ways, you might say.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 12, 2017, 02:18:49 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;945275
Friend, not so sure in this case...Uncle knows best!!! :D

H:0)

I do, but I promised not to tell. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 12, 2017, 05:57:59 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;945256
From AsenRG:
The Lords of Humanspace were not Nice People:).
There's an understatement!!! :)
I'm into careful statements, Uncle! Sometimes that reads as understatement.
What can I say? One can't commit too much, lest one's actions reflect negatively upon the honour of one's clan...
That's why last year's incident is an incident! I wonder why people still come to me with demands to repeat what I did as a result of hastily said words!
I mean, I understand they have the same issue, but seriously, now, what do you think I am? Some kind of adventurer?
That's why I've been into careful statements, lately:D!


Quote
No, he did play one in his Crusader-era campaign, though.
What we know has just been added to:)!
And I'm not even going to ask how good of a fit he was for the role.

Quote
I'd agree with this. One of the very nicest things I've ever had happen to me occurred yesterday; I was given a standing invitation to join any of the D&D groups that play at The Source as a player. I guess I'm considered some sort of Elder Statesman, and people really enjoyed improving their game using some of the 'lessons' and anecdotes that I come up with. I'm looking forward to it; I'm now on the mailing list for their games, and will spend a Saturday or two a month imparting my hard-won experience... :)
Those people in your area have finally begun to see wisdom, and no doubt would profit from your experience!
 
Quote
Agreed. It's not a play style I like, but I can understand it from a business standpoint.
I think Gronan is most sorry he didn't think of the TCG paradigm himself...:D

Quote
Chum those waters. Kill any "approved games" crocodiles that appear, and take their stuff - they tend to have nice stuff (skin and teeth from the crocodiles; dice from the "approved games" ones).

Yep. Luckily, I am not playing in anything like that; this set of players is all about the challenge and the run. And they've indicated that a return trip to see Lord Chirine and his family is being considered! Wow! :)
Smart players recognise a good Patron when they see one!

Quote
It's a thought. I usually run paint-and-takes by letting people pick a primed figure, then learning how I paint them by painting it themselves; they get to keep the figure afterwards, and I like to hand out cards with the name of the company that did the figure. What I'm trying to do is show people that anyone can paint figures, and that they don't have to be a Da Vinci or anything. I've got so much spare metal lying around, it's no cost to me; same on the paint, which was all paid for decades ago.
As long as they're not a Picasso, it should all be fine:p!
And well, my logic was simple. If your free lead is Herself's and you have paints and the know-how, why not order a mini the customer picks and do a painting session;)?
Just a thought, as I said.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on February 13, 2017, 01:08:13 PM
It is interesting how many people are following my game on "Original D&D Discussion" yet nobody leaves feedback, good or bad.

I feel blessed that so many are, just interesting the lack of comments.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 13, 2017, 01:30:39 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;945440
It is interesting how many people are following my game on "Original D&D Discussion" yet nobody leaves feedback, good or bad.

I feel blessed that so many are, just interesting the lack of comments.
=


I tried a long time ago to register there and it didn't work. I do lurk there a couple times a week...Apart from your games, it seems a bit more alive here.

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on February 13, 2017, 03:18:23 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;945268
Mighty Hrugga,

Are you saying Ald's well that ends well? :p

Shemek


What you two did there... I see it!

Well done.  I appreciate good puns!  :D

Which leads to a sudden question inspiration!  How do the Tsolyani and other members of the five empires view Puns?  Are they considered high wit?  Groan and roll eyes like modern English?  Keys to poetry like some languages I've studied?  (If it's addressed in Swords and Glory, I've long forgotten)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 13, 2017, 05:26:22 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;945454
What you two did there... I see it!

Well done.  I appreciate good puns!  :D

Which leads to a sudden question inspiration!  How do the Tsolyani and other members of the five empires view Puns?  Are they considered high wit?  Groan and roll eyes like modern English?  Keys to poetry like some languages I've studied?  (If it's addressed in Swords and Glory, I've long forgotten)


Not sure what Uncle will have to say. In my Tekumel they love all types of cheese foreign and domestic...!!! Be well.

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 13, 2017, 05:29:18 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;945312
I'm into careful statements, Uncle! Sometimes that reads as understatement.
What can I say? One can't commit too much, lest one's actions reflect negatively upon the honour of one's clan...
That's why last year's incident is an incident! I wonder why people still come to me with demands to repeat what I did as a result of hastily said words!
I mean, I understand they have the same issue, but seriously, now, what do you think I am? Some kind of adventurer?
That's why I've been into careful statements, lately:D!



What we know has just been added to:)!
And I'm not even going to ask how good of a fit he was for the role.


Those people in your area have finally begun to see wisdom, and no doubt would profit from your experience!
 

I think Gronan is most sorry he didn't think of the TCG paradigm himself...:D


Smart players recognise a good Patron when they see one!


As long as they're not a Picasso, it should all be fine:p!
And well, my logic was simple. If your free lead is Herself's and you have paints and the know-how, why not order a mini the customer picks and do a painting session;)?
Just a thought, as I said.

Still funny, though... :)

He was very good indeed; he loved the historical period, didn't like the Franks at all, and played the role to the hilt.

I hope so; at least they seem to be amused by my stories... :)

I think so; they were very impressed by their welcome, and are looking to repay the favor. Which is good; Djel has her coming-of-age ceremony, and the Higborn Djullanar has her enthronement, both coming up on the social calender; we're hiring as many mercenaries as we can, just in case. Mayhem will ensure, I suspect.

Ah, I need to be more clear, here. I've been at this miniatures thing for some forty years, and I have a huge assortment of miniatures that I've gotten in during my e-bay days as large lots; I'd have to buy the lot to get the particular figure I needed / wanted, and the net result is that I have a massive pile of unpainted metal that I frankly will never paint. (I do not need a set of D&D-style 'city guards', for example.) The figures that I got the Missus are not part of my collection, and are strictly untouchable - she does check them, every now and then, just to keep a finger on the pulse. (As it were.) My thought was to get the metal pile back into the hobby with the paint-and-take sessions.

I don't want to get into ordering figures for people; it's a cash outlay that I can't afford. If people dropped by and wanted to sit in on a painting session, using their own figures, I'd love that. I just don't to have anything to do with the 'commercial' side of the hobby; been there, done that, never want to do it again. I paint figures for my friends, like the ones I did for Kyrinn Eis for her NTRPG game session; that's a friend helping out a friend. And my kids helped with that project, too, which really meant a lot to her.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 13, 2017, 05:31:21 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;945440
It is interesting how many people are following my game on "Original D&D Discussion" yet nobody leaves feedback, good or bad.

I feel blessed that so many are, just interesting the lack of comments.
=

Is that the 'ODD74' board? I think they dropped the EPT section; mostly due to a lack of interest. I could quite understand that; it is a D&D board, after all...

EDIT: I'm wrong; they still have the EPT section, it's just further down the page. Some nice things said about TSTPT, too. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 13, 2017, 05:39:05 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;945454
What you two did there... I see it!

Well done.  I appreciate good puns!  :D

Which leads to a sudden question inspiration!  How do the Tsolyani and other members of the five empires view Puns?  Are they considered high wit?  Groan and roll eyes like modern English?  Keys to poetry like some languages I've studied?  (If it's addressed in Swords and Glory, I've long forgotten)

Phil loved puns, the more literate the better. I don't recall him every doing any in Tsolyani, and I don't recall it ever coming up in-game. I don't think there's anything in S&G I, but I'll look.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 13, 2017, 05:57:44 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;945466
He was very good indeed; he loved the historical period, didn't like the Franks at all, and played the role to the hilt.
Unsurprising, that... I mean, who liked Franks, except other Franks (and usually not even most of those:D)?

Quote
I think so; they were very impressed by their welcome, and are looking to repay the favor. Which is good; Djel has her coming-of-age ceremony, and the Higborn Djullanar has her enthronement, both coming up on the social calender; we're hiring as many mercenaries as we can, just in case. Mayhem will ensure, I suspect.
Somehow, I think "suspect" might be the wrong word, here!
Mayhem will ensue. It's statistics:)!

Quote
Ah, I need to be more clear, here. I've been at this miniatures thing for some forty years, and I have a huge assortment of miniatures that I've gotten in during my e-bay days as large lots; I'd have to buy the lot to get the particular figure I needed / wanted, and the net result is that I have a massive pile of unpainted metal that I frankly will never paint. (I do not need a set of D&D-style 'city guards', for example.) The figures that I got the Missus are not part of my collection, and are strictly untouchable - she does check them, every now and then, just to keep a finger on the pulse. (As it were.) My thought was to get the metal pile back into the hobby with the paint-and-take sessions.
Okay, I misunderstood the situation...
And yes, scratch the ordering, keep the paint-and-take sessions. I mean, you're a miniature gamer, and you like painting those - it should be a win-win!
Worst case scenario, you announce you're out of stock, and stop the whole endeavour;).
Of course, you know best if it's doable, I've got distance working against my judgement.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 13, 2017, 06:53:03 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;945477
Unsurprising, that... I mean, who liked Franks, except other Franks (and usually not even most of those:D)?

Somehow, I think "suspect" might be the wrong word, here!
Mayhem will ensue. It's statistics:)!

Okay, I misunderstood the situation...
And yes, scratch the ordering, keep the paint-and-take sessions. I mean, you're a miniature gamer, and you like painting those - it should be a win-win!
Worst case scenario, you announce you're out of stock, and stop the whole endeavour;).
Of course, you know best if it's doable, I've got distance working against my judgement.

True; the history of Outremer is rife with all sorts of stuff that makes "Game of Thrones" look timid and restrained in comparison.

Agreed; I am really looking forward to running that particular game! :)

Gotcha! No problem. There is no market for unpainted figures in bulk hereabouts, and not much of one for painted figures either. Miniatures have to be, it seems, painted by one of the 'name' commercial artists - who do some wonderful work, by the way; see my blog - and in some way 'collectable' to have much value.

Shrug. I just play with the things, and paint them for the fun of it...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 14, 2017, 01:14:16 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;945490
True; the history of Outremer is rife with all sorts of stuff that makes "Game of Thrones" look timid and restrained in comparison.

Or as somebody else said around here somewhere, "The 14th Century, like Game of Thrones without the warm and cuddly parts."

And yes, I very much wish I'd thought of collectable card games.  Hate them as a gamer, love them as marketing.  Uncle Chirine and I would have retired to some balmy tropical isle with our respective families by now.  "Peel me a grape, would you, Kyalein?"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 14, 2017, 02:48:17 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;945490
True; the history of Outremer is rife with all sorts of stuff that makes "Game of Thrones" look timid and restrained in comparison.

Yeah, and even those that didn't even get to the Holy Lands managed to distinguish themselves...in the wrong way:).

Quote
Agreed; I am really looking forward to running that particular game! :)

Keep us updated about what happens, Uncle!

Quote
Gotcha! No problem. There is no market for unpainted figures in bulk hereabouts, and not much of one for painted figures either. Miniatures have to be, it seems, painted by one of the 'name' commercial artists - who do some wonderful work, by the way; see my blog - and in some way 'collectable' to have much value.

Shrug. I just play with the things, and paint them for the fun of it...

You really live in a weird place, Uncle. And I don't mean Tekumel, that part I can understand much more easily...:p
(Being a snob in Tekumel makes sense, it identifies you as someone who can afford it. Being a snob in 21st century USA makes much less sense to me. But that attitude towards "name" commercial artists is nothing if not snobbish...)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;945547
Or as somebody else said around here somewhere, "The 14th Century, like Game of Thrones without the warm and cuddly parts."

That's a good one:D!

Quote
And yes, I very much wish I'd thought of collectable card games.  Hate them as a gamer, love them as marketing.

Yeah, I remember that from upthread. Unless it was another thread, I'm not sure and ultimately, it doesn't matter...

Quote
Uncle Chirine and I would have retired to some balmy tropical isle with our respective families by now.  "Peel me a grape, would you, Kyalein?"

Yeah, I can see how the world would have been a better place for it;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 14, 2017, 05:44:17 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;945547
Or as somebody else said around here somewhere, "The 14th Century, like Game of Thrones without the warm and cuddly parts."

And yes, I very much wish I'd thought of collectable card games.  Hate them as a gamer, love them as marketing.  Uncle Chirine and I would have retired to some balmy tropical isle with our respective families by now.  "Peel me a grape, would you, Kyalein?"

Agreed!

And the whole 'collectable' marketing thing leaves me cold. Like the PPP figures from WotC; they were really delighted with the sales, until somebody in the office compared retail and wholesale; turned out that the biggest buyers of the figures were not gamers, but resellers who'd buy up huge piles of figures and then break up the randomized 'collector packs' and sell the individual figures to games - just like the miniatures hobby had been doing for decades, quite successfully.

Sigh. Ain't no new ways to make a wheel...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 14, 2017, 05:53:46 PM
From AsenRG:
Yeah, and even those that didn't even get to the Holy Lands managed to distinguish themselves...in the wrong way:).

That's the truth. They were some of the least polite people I can think of. Most gamers have no idea who Eleanor of Aquitane was, and why she got kicked out of the Crusade she was supposed to be part of. Give how her later career and family life went, I'm not surprised that Louis sent her packing...

Keep us updated about what happens, Uncle!

I will; it'll be a romp, for sure. :)

You really live in a weird place, Uncle. And I don't mean Tekumel, that part I can understand much more easily...:p
(Being a snob in Tekumel makes sense, it identifies you as someone who can afford it. Being a snob in 21st century USA makes much less sense to me. But that attitude towards "name" commercial artists is nothing if not snobbish...)


There's always been a certain dynamic tension between miniatures gamers who actually use figures on the table and the figure collectors who keep their miniatures in the display case. It's like the dichotomy in model railways between 'collectors' and 'operators'; I am one of the latter, and regarded with some bewilderment and distrust by the former. (O'course, I'm also considered odd by Yankee model railroaders, 'cause I model God's Wonderful Railway in OO - heck, even some of my fellow modelers in my club think I'm daft, but then they are all LMS and LNER types.)

That's a good one:D!

Yep. Quite the truth.

Yeah, I can see how the world would have been a better place for it;).

The gaming hobby would have been very different, that's for sure... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 14, 2017, 08:11:18 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;945682
Most gamers have no idea who Eleanor of Aquitane was, and why she got kicked out of the Crusade she was supposed to be part of.

"But the troops were dazzled!"

Quote from: chirine ba kal;945682
There's always been a certain dynamic tension between miniatures gamers who actually use figures on the table and the figure collectors who keep their miniatures in the display case.

Collectors always struck me as a bit of an odd duck.  "Here's the rubber JFK wore when he screwed Marilyn Monroe!"  Well, yeah, but here's the rubber I wore when I screwed Marilyn Monroe...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;945682
I model God's Wonderful Railway in OO

* toasts Isambard Kingdom Brunel *
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on February 15, 2017, 07:06:42 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;945446
I tried a long time ago to register there and it didn't work.

FYI: "Registration open. It was a SPAM thing"

Quote from: Hrugga;945446
it seems a bit more alive here.

Yes, surprisingly so.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on February 15, 2017, 11:49:23 AM
Here's one that I've noticed a few times over the course of the thread and which has left me confused.

In a couple places I'm seeing mentions of wives that are Priestesses of Dilinala, but in Mitlanyal and IIRC S&G it says said priestesses of Dilinala can't marry (Though can transfer to the priesthood of Avanthe if they do, in one of the rare cases changing god is routine and easy for a priest), indeed, even goes so far as saying they don't even engage in sexual acts with men.  Was this, perhaps, a later evolution of things?  Or something that's a bit more complicated than it seems.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 15, 2017, 04:05:04 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;945682
From AsenRG:
Yeah, and even those that didn't even get to the Holy Lands managed to distinguish themselves...in the wrong way:).

That's the truth. They were some of the least polite people I can think of. Most gamers have no idea who Eleanor of Aquitane was, and why she got kicked out of the Crusade she was supposed to be part of. Give how her later career and family life went, I'm not surprised that Louis sent her packing...
You mean, the mother of Lionheart? "In a world where carpenters get resurrected, everything is possible".

Quote
Keep us updated about what happens, Uncle!

I will; it'll be a romp, for sure. :)
That much I'd take for granted.

Quote
You really live in a weird place, Uncle. And I don't mean Tekumel, that part I can understand much more easily...:p
(Being a snob in Tekumel makes sense, it identifies you as someone who can afford it. Being a snob in 21st century USA makes much less sense to me. But that attitude towards "name" commercial artists is nothing if not snobbish...)


There's always been a certain dynamic tension between miniatures gamers who actually use figures on the table and the figure collectors who keep their miniatures in the display case. It's like the dichotomy in model railways between 'collectors' and 'operators'; I am one of the latter, and regarded with some bewilderment and distrust by the former. (O'course, I'm also considered odd by Yankee model railroaders, 'cause I model God's Wonderful Railway in OO - heck, even some of my fellow modelers in my club think I'm daft, but then they are all LMS and LNER types.)
Oh yeah, the collectors...
I'd rather stop here before I say something I might be sorry about some day, Uncle. So, no other comments on that one, not from me!

Quote
Yeah, I can see how the world would have been a better place for it;).

The gaming hobby would have been very different, that's for sure... :)
Well, the gaming hobby is part of the world, and one can even argue we have influenced it.
Without us, there would be no MMORPG. Without them, how would millions of people be wasting their youth:p?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;945696
"But the troops were dazzled!"
Yeah, the bare-breasted maids riding like Amazons sure must have been a dazzling sight;)!

Quote
Collectors always struck me as a bit of an odd duck.  "Here's the rubber JFK wore when he screwed Marilyn Monroe!"  Well, yeah, but here's the rubber I wore when I screwed Marilyn Monroe...
Now, that story sure would make your book a success, Glorious General:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 15, 2017, 05:34:26 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;945760
FYI: "Registration open. It was a SPAM thing"


Yes, surprisingly so.
=


That being said, is it worth it to sign up...?

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 15, 2017, 06:03:09 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;945696
"But the troops were dazzled!"

Collectors always struck me as a bit of an odd duck.  "Here's the rubber JFK wore when he screwed Marilyn Monroe!"  Well, yeah, but here's the rubber I wore when I screwed Marilyn Monroe...

* toasts Isambard Kingdom Brunel *


And we have another really major understatement, there! :)

Yep. And I've gotten tired of them dropping by to appraise my basement, too. Getting to the point where I'm counting the silverware... :(

Hear! Hear! Any engineer who thinks of himself as the equal to Rameses the Great, and manages to pull the project off, is truly awe inspiring. A man who can design and build a special tool to remove a gold sovereign that's lodged in his own win
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 15, 2017, 06:04:40 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;945760
FYI: "Registration open. It was a SPAM thing"


Yes, surprisingly so.
=

Interesting; I wonder why? Seriously, actually; not trying to be funny or anything...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 15, 2017, 06:06:30 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;945845
You mean, the mother of Lionheart? "In a world where carpenters get resurrected, everything is possible".

Yeah, the bare-breasted maids riding like Amazons sure must have been a dazzling sight;)!

Yes, that's her! You can't make this kind of thing up - history is quite often very much odder and funnier then fiction...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 15, 2017, 06:07:11 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;945878
That being said, is it worth it to sign up...?

H:0)

Same question, here; I dropped off due to time and energy constraints, myself.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 15, 2017, 06:58:46 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;945796
Here's one that I've noticed a few times over the course of the thread and which has left me confused.

In a couple places I'm seeing mentions of wives that are Priestesses of Dilinala, but in Mitlanyal and IIRC S&G it says said priestesses of Dilinala can't marry (Though can transfer to the priesthood of Avanthe if they do, in one of the rare cases changing god is routine and easy for a priest), indeed, even goes so far as saying they don't even engage in sexual acts with men.  Was this, perhaps, a later evolution of things?  Or something that's a bit more complicated than it seems.

It's something a bit more complicated then it seems. Just like any human society, really.

No, worshippers of Dilinala don't 'marry' males; the Temple is all about "Woman for woman alone", as is mentioned in all of the source materials. Generally, they are often/usually lesbians, but that's an oversimplification; if somebody in the temple wants to marry / have kids, they transfer over to the Temple of Avanthe for a while. So, you do have ranking Priestesses of the goddess with families; men may or may not be included, depending on the way the relationships are set up and what the clans involved have to say about things like property and legacies.

This was there in EPT, from the beginning; it was one of the way's that Phil told us that we were not in Kansas, anymore. Keep in mind that lesbians were rare and relatively alien back in 1976; these days, LGBTQ PCs and players are neither. (I've had both, in my campaigns.) The people who live on Tekumel don't really much care about this subject as the source materials indicate, and as long as the right people are appeased, anything is possible. As Phil used to say, "File your paperwork with the Imperium, and nobody will care."

As for wives, Lord Chirine's fifth wife - who has the title 'Second Concubine' -  is a Priestess of Dilinala. In order to be in our family, she 'pays dues' to both Avanthe and Dilinala. (For the record, it's - in order of seniority - Mretten, Ksarul, Lost One of the Sea, Kirrineb, and Dilinala for Their Ladyships and Vimuhla for His Lordship.) Tekumel is not modern America, and they don't subscribe to American ways of looking at things or mores or morals.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on February 15, 2017, 07:15:54 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;945893
Same question, here;

Matter of opinion I suppose.
With so few sites that have EPT content, I felt it was worth joining and try to keep it "alive".
Mostly just to show a pulse, for anyone looking.
I figured that OD&D people might remember it and/or be likely to have interest.
My style is in the OD&D mindset and I'm trying to "relive" those original games, somewhat.
While everything has moved one since then, reenacting doesn't hurt. IMHO.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on February 15, 2017, 07:19:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;945890
Interesting; I wonder why? Seriously, actually; not trying to be funny or anything...

Like the dancing of dust in a sunbeam. While the dust seems small and insignificant, it can be fascinating.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 16, 2017, 02:39:26 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;945892
Yes, that's her! You can't make this kind of thing up - history is quite often very much odder and funnier then fiction...
Well, some PCs have almost done more outrageous things...:)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;945909
It's something a bit more complicated then it seems. Just like any human society, really.

No, worshippers of Dilinala don't 'marry' males; the Temple is all about "Woman for woman alone", as is mentioned in all of the source materials. Generally, they are often/usually lesbians, but that's an oversimplification; if somebody in the temple wants to marry / have kids, they transfer over to the Temple of Avanthe for a while. So, you do have ranking Priestesses of the goddess with families; men may or may not be included, depending on the way the relationships are set up and what the clans involved have to say about things like property and legacies.

This was there in EPT, from the beginning; it was one of the way's that Phil told us that we were not in Kansas, anymore. Keep in mind that lesbians were rare and relatively alien back in 1976; these days, LGBTQ PCs and players are neither. (I've had both, in my campaigns.) The people who live on Tekumel don't really much care about this subject as the source materials indicate, and as long as the right people are appeased, anything is possible. As Phil used to say, "File your paperwork with the Imperium, and nobody will care."
Admittedly, these days "lesbians are alien and persecuted" is going to convey "you're not in Kansas anymore, Dor'othy hi Tlankotel" more efficiently, for most people;).
But the fact is, Tekumeli would have most issues with queer people, because how dare they dressing inappropriately to their station? (Unless they're into one of the orders who practice assassination and disguise, I guess).
Fun question, Uncle - there's a temple with predominantly lesbian priestesses, and another with predominantly bi priests and priestesses. Is there a temple that gay priests would be naturally drawn to;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on February 16, 2017, 09:05:18 AM
Couple of non-human questions.

Can an aspiring Emperor/Empress use non-humans as champions in the Kolumejálim?

Has any Imperial offspring ever been raised by non-humans?

Also, do any armies on Tekumel use anything like plumbata/lawn darts? My son saw a thing about Jarts on a "Famous Dangerous Toys" youtube video and asked me about them, which prompted a discussion about Roman troops that used them, after describing the wildly dangerous ways my brothers and I "played" with them when we were kids. He plans on having his character carry 5 on the inside of his shield in Roman fashion.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 16, 2017, 06:18:51 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;945911
Matter of opinion I suppose.
With so few sites that have EPT content, I felt it was worth joining and try to keep it "alive".
Mostly just to show a pulse, for anyone looking.
I figured that OD&D people might remember it and/or be likely to have interest.
My style is in the OD&D mindset and I'm trying to "relive" those original games, somewhat.
While everything has moved one since then, reenacting doesn't hurt. IMHO.
=


Oh, all right; understood.

I'm still bemused that we're where we are in this thread; I never would have guessed it, myself... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 16, 2017, 06:22:29 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;945992
Well, some PCs have almost done more outrageous things...:)


Admittedly, these days "lesbians are alien and persecuted" is going to convey "you're not in Kansas anymore, Dor'othy hi Tlankotel" more efficiently, for most people;).
But the fact is, Tekumeli would have most issues with queer people, because how dare they dressing inappropriately to their station? (Unless they're into one of the orders who practice assassination and disguise, I guess).
Fun question, Uncle - there's a temple with predominantly lesbian priestesses, and another with predominantly bi priests and priestesses. Is there a temple that gay priests would be naturally drawn to;)?

True, true... :)

Ah, I'm not getting this; the people we met in Phil's games had no issues with LBGTQ people - admittedly, in the matriarchy of Yan Kor the clan ladies would laugh at gay men, but that's about it - and they don't dress any differently then any one else, at least in the way Phil ran his world. Am I missing something?

No, not really.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 16, 2017, 06:26:06 PM
Quote from: Big Andy;946021
Couple of non-human questions.

Can an aspiring Emperor/Empress use non-humans as champions in the Kolumejálim?

Has any Imperial offspring ever been raised by non-humans?

Also, do any armies on Tekumel use anything like plumbata/lawn darts? My son saw a thing about Jarts on a "Famous Dangerous Toys" youtube video and asked me about them, which prompted a discussion about Roman troops that used them, after describing the wildly dangerous ways my brothers and I "played" with them when we were kids. He plans on having his character carry 5 on the inside of his shield in Roman fashion.

Not that I'm aware of; I'll go back and listen to the interview we have with Phil on tape to make sure, but as far as I know, no.

Not that I am aware of; it never came up in-game, and as far as I know it's not in any of the texts.

Probably; I'd have to go back and look through all the units in the army lists to see who. I can think of one Tsolyani legion that certainly would, if they found out about them, and I think I recall 'darts' being mentioned as being used by skirmishers of various kinds. I'll have a look...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 17, 2017, 08:34:01 PM
Chirine,

Just wondering, how do clans like the Tlakotani, Vriddi, and Ito trace lineages? Are there specific forms of address or clan titles which indicate status and pedigree within the respective clans?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 18, 2017, 03:24:24 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;946076
True, true... :)
What, in your games, too:D?

Quote
Ah, I'm not getting this; the people we met in Phil's games had no issues with LBGTQ people - admittedly, in the matriarchy of Yan Kor the clan ladies would laugh at gay men, but that's about it - and they don't dress any differently then any one else, at least in the way Phil ran his world. Am I missing something?
I think you're missing the fact that this was a comment on the way our world has changed, not Tekumel...:) I was thinking about the reaction to settings that have kept the anti-LGBTQ discrimination as part of their societies, and I think they definitely are giving a "no more in Kansas" vibe to people today.

As for the comment about "queer", I was thinking about people who dress in the clothing of the other gender. I can see how that would be the worst problem on Tekumel, given the insistence on proper clothing.

Quote
No, not really.
Too bad, I'd have to default to Karakan and/or Vimuhla, then;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 18, 2017, 09:11:10 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;946233
Chirine,

Just wondering, how do clans like the Tlakotani, Vriddi, and Ito trace lineages? Are there specific forms of address or clan titles which indicate status and pedigree within the respective clans?

Shemek

Yes, very much so. The lineages are traced through both parents, in all directions, so it does get pretty complex. Generally, the specific lineage is often the most 'noble' and 'senior' one that the person can trace, but not always. Ito are pretty stock and standard, in their North and South factions; the Tlakotani have the 'regular' and 'imperial' lineages; the Vriddi are very different and more complex, with both ancient Nlyuss and modern Tsolyani lineages; they tend to have elaborate lists in order to keep them straight. To be 'a Vriddi of the Vriddi' is to be of the oldest and most noble of their lineages.

I don't know if Phil included these terms in the Tsolyani language books, but I'll look after I'm finished with the convention show.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 18, 2017, 09:12:00 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;946271
What, in your games, too:D?


I think you're missing the fact that this was a comment on the way our world has changed, not Tekumel...:) I was thinking about the reaction to settings that have kept the anti-LGBTQ discrimination as part of their societies, and I think they definitely are giving a "no more in Kansas" vibe to people today.

As for the comment about "queer", I was thinking about people who dress in the clothing of the other gender. I can see how that would be the worst problem on Tekumel, given the insistence on proper clothing.


Too bad, I'd have to default to Karakan and/or Vimuhla, then;)!

Yep... :)

Oh, right, gotcha! Thank you for the clarification!

:)
Title: Friday's work...
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 18, 2017, 09:14:25 AM
And here's the Friday display:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]703[/ATTACH]
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 18, 2017, 10:16:33 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;946325
Yes, very much so. The lineages are traced through both parents, in all directions, so it does get pretty complex. Generally, the specific lineage is often the most 'noble' and 'senior' one that the person can trace, but not always. Ito are pretty stock and standard, in their North and South factions; the Tlakotani have the 'regular' and 'imperial' lineages; the Vriddi are very different and more complex, with both ancient Nlyuss and modern Tsolyani lineages; they tend to have elaborate lists in order to keep them straight. To be 'a Vriddi of the Vriddi' is to be of the oldest and most noble of their lineages.

I don't know if Phil included these terms in the Tsolyani language books, but I'll look after I'm finished with the convention show.


Thanks for the reply, but I'm still kind of confused:confused: I always thought that all members of the above mentioned clans went only by the clan name ...hiTlakotani, hiVriddi, hiIto.  
If, for example, my character were named Serqu hiVriddi, would he be a "Vriddi of the Vriddi?" And if he were named Serqu hiVu’unavu would he introduce himself as such, and add " of the Vriddi Clan" (Serqu hiVu’unavu, hiVriddi), or would it be understood by all that he was a Vriddi based upon the fact that the lineage is known to be associated with the clan?

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 19, 2017, 06:48:16 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;946333
Thanks for the reply, but I'm still kind of confused:confused: I always thought that all members of the above mentioned clans went only by the clan name ...hiTlakotani, hiVriddi, hiIto.  
If, for example, my character were named Serqu hiVriddi, would he be a "Vriddi of the Vriddi?" And if he were named Serqu hiVu’unavu would he introduce himself as such, and add " of the Vriddi Clan" (Serqu hiVu’unavu, hiVriddi), or would it be understood by all that he was a Vriddi based upon the fact that the lineage is known to be associated with the clan?

Shemek

Actually, you're not confused. Normally, the first time you'd meet somebody they would be introduced by their name, their lineage, and their clan - often with where they are from. So, your man would be introduced to me either as Serqu hi Vriddi of the Vriddi clan of Fasiltum, which tells me (or my majordomo) that this guy is a very high status person - especially if he's got the famous Vriddi hawk-nose. He's a Vriddi of the Vriddi, and he'd also be wearing his clan glyphs and have a pretty arrogant attitude. Of, he'd be introduced as Serqu hi Vu'unavu, of the Vriddi clan of Butrus, and I'd know instantly that this is the western branch of the clan ands that this guy is descended from some Mu'uglavyani who married into the central clan at some point in the long and turbulent history of the clan. Again, he'd be wearing his clan glyphs, and we'd get all this information the first time we'd met.

Likewise, I would give the same information for myself, and we'd both know what our social relationship was instantly from all that.

Does any of this help?
Title: More from Con of the North
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 19, 2017, 07:01:00 AM
Saturday and Sunday's display, with a slight change of scene to help Registration out:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]704[/ATTACH]
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 19, 2017, 11:21:44 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;946424
Actually, you're not confused. Normally, the first time you'd meet somebody they would be introduced by their name, their lineage, and their clan - often with where they are from. So, your man would be introduced to me either as Serqu hi Vriddi of the Vriddi clan of Fasiltum, which tells me (or my majordomo) that this guy is a very high status person - especially if he's got the famous Vriddi hawk-nose. He's a Vriddi of the Vriddi, and he'd also be wearing his clan glyphs and have a pretty arrogant attitude. Of, he'd be introduced as Serqu hi Vu'unavu, of the Vriddi clan of Butrus, and I'd know instantly that this is the western branch of the clan ands that this guy is descended from some Mu'uglavyani who married into the central clan at some point in the long and turbulent history of the clan. Again, he'd be wearing his clan glyphs, and we'd get all this information the first time we'd met.

Likewise, I would give the same information for myself, and we'd both know what our social relationship was instantly from all that.

Does any of this help?


Ok, I get it now. Up until quite recently I had thought that there were no distinct lineages in the Tlakotani, Vriddi and Ito, that everyone was "just" ...hi Vriddi,   or ...hi Tlakotani, etc., and that distinct inter-clan lineages were "just known" by the insiders and not distinctly identified by name. The Tekumel.com website identifies two Fasiltum/Vriddi lineages: the Vravodaya, and the Vu’unavu. It was the discovery of these that got me wondering about the whole Vriddi lineages thing.

Thanks again for clarifying this point!:)

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 19, 2017, 04:42:06 PM
The name Vravodaya makes me think of someone who gives you rope...:)
Did the Vriddi ancestors give rope to their enemies so they'd hang themselves, I wonder?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;946326
Yep... :)
It's a trend, Uncle, I'm telling you;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 20, 2017, 11:58:44 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;946445
Ok, I get it now. Up until quite recently I had thought that there were no distinct lineages in the Tlakotani, Vriddi and Ito, that everyone was "just" ...hi Vriddi,   or ...hi Tlakotani, etc., and that distinct inter-clan lineages were "just known" by the insiders and not distinctly identified by name. The Tekumel.com website identifies two Fasiltum/Vriddi lineages: the Vravodaya, and the Vu’unavu. It was the discovery of these that got me wondering about the whole Vriddi lineages thing.

Thanks again for clarifying this point!:)

Shemek

You are most welcome! Happy to help! If you have a look at the Tekumel group over on Yahoo, Alva Hardison has built up a huge database of names, lineages, and clans from all the Tekumel sources; it's very, very useful!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 20, 2017, 12:15:33 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;946493
The name Vravodaya makes me think of someone who gives you rope...:)
Did the Vriddi ancestors give rope to their enemies so they'd hang themselves, I wonder?

It's a trend, Uncle, I'm telling you;)!

Probably, given their long and usually violent history. Wouldn't surprise me.

Agreed! :)

I had a rather disturbing incident at the convention, over the weekend. The Tekumel programming track, ably put together by Brett Slocum (he's the guy who runs the Yahoo group, by the way) was steaming along very well with lots of great games, and I was very happy to see all the interest being shown by quite a few of the 1,300+ people at the convention. One of the GMs, who was in our group out at Phil's, made some sort of comment that Phil, as a devout Muslim, would not have approved of the GM as he's a gay person. I think the intent was trying to show that Phil kept his faith separate from his gaming, and was - I think - meant in a positive sense. I had two issues with this statement: 1), the guy being gay had not come up out at Phil's at the time, and 2) anybody who knew Phil and his faith would know that this statement is - to be polite - wildly inaccurate. It wasn't an issue for Phil, and he simply did not care what other people did - as long as they didn't try to force him to subscribe to their political or similar positions. (Like one guy did with with the issue of the LGBTQ right to marry.)

I thought that the comment was inappropriate to the game convention setting, inaccurate regarding the Professor, and aimed more at building up the GM's status with his associates in the LGBTQ culture. He's done this kind of thing before - he's the one who announced that I had "persecuted" his PC for being gay - and the adventure that he had written and was running at the time was more or less a political manifesto for LGBTQ rights.

I found it all pretty disturbing, given my own experiences with Phil; my daughter, who is an LGBTQ activist (Amnesty International in Zurich) also found it odd.

Other then that, had a great weekend; report to follow!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 20, 2017, 12:48:14 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;946643
You are most welcome! Happy to help! If you have a look at the Tekumel group over on Yahoo, Alva Hardison has built up a huge database of names, lineages, and clans from all the Tekumel sources; it's very, very useful!


Thanks once again Chirine!
This is very good, and will come in handy. She sure put in a tonne of work on this database. Found another Vriddi lineage after just a quick scan.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 20, 2017, 01:00:06 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;946645
Probably, given their long and usually violent history. Wouldn't surprise me.

Agreed! :)

I had a rather disturbing incident at the convention, over the weekend. The Tekumel programming track, ably put together by Brett Slocum (he's the guy who runs the Yahoo group, by the way) was steaming along very well with lots of great games, and I was very happy to see all the interest being shown by quite a few of the 1,300+ people at the convention. One of the GMs, who was in our group out at Phil's, made some sort of comment that Phil, as a devout Muslim, would not have approved of the GM as he's a gay person. I think the intent was trying to show that Phil kept his faith separate from his gaming, and was - I think - meant in a positive sense. I had two issues with this statement: 1), the guy being gay had not come up out at Phil's at the time, and 2) anybody who knew Phil and his faith would know that this statement is - to be polite - wildly inaccurate. It wasn't an issue for Phil, and he simply did not care what other people did - as long as they didn't try to force him to subscribe to their political or similar positions. (Like one guy did with with the issue of the LGBTQ right to marry.)

I thought that the comment was inappropriate to the game convention setting, inaccurate regarding the Professor, and aimed more at building up the GM's status with his associates in the LGBTQ culture. He's done this kind of thing before - he's the one who announced that I had "persecuted" his PC for being gay - and the adventure that he had written and was running at the time was more or less a political manifesto for LGBTQ rights.

I found it all pretty disturbing, given my own experiences with Phil; my daughter, who is an LGBTQ activist (Amnesty International in Zurich) also found it odd.

Other then that, had a great weekend; report to follow!


Uncle,

I can not wait for your report. From what I understand many of the Tekumel game scenarios seem really interesting. As far as people go, I try to be true to myself. It matters not what they think of me. I listen and make no comments. So if a dead horse happens to be in my path, I let them lie. I do however like to carry a big stick. Which I rarely ever have to use...Be well!!!

H;0)

PS I have to agree with the Professor on his views of the subject.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 20, 2017, 01:03:44 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;946652
Thanks once again Chirine!
This is very good, and will come in handy. She sure put in a tonne of work on this database. Found another Vriddi lineage after just a quick scan.

Shemek.


Greetings Lord Shemek,

Which file were you looking through? The name should suffice...I'm sure I can find it.

Thanks,
H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 20, 2017, 01:39:35 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;946660
Greetings Lord Shemek,

Which file were you looking through? The name should suffice...I'm sure I can find it.

Thanks,
H:0)


Mighty Hrugga,

Here they are:

Tekumel Lineages, Clans, and Notes 2.pdf
Tekumel Lineages, Clans, and Notes.odt

Both look good, especially the PDF.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 20, 2017, 03:06:44 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;946645
One of the GMs, who was in our group out at Phil's, made some sort of comment that Phil, as a devout Muslim, would not have approved of the GM as he's a gay person.

* headdesk *
* headdesk *
* headdesk *
* headdesk *
* headdesk *
* headdesk *
* headdesk *
* headdesk *
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 20, 2017, 03:11:02 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;946668
Mighty Hrugga,

Here they are:

Tekumel Lineages, Clans, and Notes 2.pdf
Tekumel Lineages, Clans, and Notes.odt

Both look good, especially the PDF.

Shemek


Thank you

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 20, 2017, 05:31:21 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;946645
Probably, given their long and usually violent history. Wouldn't surprise me.

Agreed! :)

I had a rather disturbing incident at the convention, over the weekend. The Tekumel programming track, ably put together by Brett Slocum (he's the guy who runs the Yahoo group, by the way) was steaming along very well with lots of great games, and I was very happy to see all the interest being shown by quite a few of the 1,300+ people at the convention. One of the GMs, who was in our group out at Phil's, made some sort of comment that Phil, as a devout Muslim, would not have approved of the GM as he's a gay person. I think the intent was trying to show that Phil kept his faith separate from his gaming, and was - I think - meant in a positive sense. I had two issues with this statement: 1), the guy being gay had not come up out at Phil's at the time, and 2) anybody who knew Phil and his faith would know that this statement is - to be polite - wildly inaccurate. It wasn't an issue for Phil, and he simply did not care what other people did - as long as they didn't try to force him to subscribe to their political or similar positions. (Like one guy did with with the issue of the LGBTQ right to marry.)

I thought that the comment was inappropriate to the game convention setting, inaccurate regarding the Professor, and aimed more at building up the GM's status with his associates in the LGBTQ culture. He's done this kind of thing before - he's the one who announced that I had "persecuted" his PC for being gay - and the adventure that he had written and was running at the time was more or less a political manifesto for LGBTQ rights.

I found it all pretty disturbing, given my own experiences with Phil; my daughter, who is an LGBTQ activist (Amnesty International in Zurich) also found it odd.

Other then that, had a great weekend; report to follow!
Since you don't mention getting arrested, Uncle, I can only conclude you really have the patience of saints;)!
I hope you cut him short, because what he was doing WASN'T COOL AT ALL.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;946687
* headdesk *
* headdesk *
* headdesk *
* headdesk *
* headdesk *
* headdesk *
* headdesk *
* headdesk *

That's a possible reaction, Glorious General, just don't use your own head:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron on February 20, 2017, 06:41:43 PM
I have another question for Lord Chirine or the Glorious General. I have a new player who wants to be a tomb-robbing thief with acrobatic skills. He wanted his character to have trained a small semi-intelligent animal, something like a counterpart to a monkey, that helps him in his work. Something that would fit into an Aladdin / Thief of Baghdad vibe. What would be a good Tekumel counterpart to a little dexterous trainable monkey?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron on February 20, 2017, 06:43:34 PM
I was thinking possibly a Kuruku, if they could be trained properly?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 20, 2017, 07:49:02 PM
Good choice, but I'd make the training happen in-game.  It's funnier that way.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 20, 2017, 08:05:15 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;946652
Thanks once again Chirine!
This is very good, and will come in handy. She sure put in a tonne of work on this database. Found another Vriddi lineage after just a quick scan.

Shemek.


Alva is a he. No problem; he's just happy to see somebody using the data! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 20, 2017, 08:08:41 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;946659
Uncle,

I can not wait for your report. From what I understand many of the Tekumel game scenarios seem really interesting. As far as people go, I try to be true to myself. It matters not what they think of me. I listen and make no comments. So if a dead horse happens to be in my path, I let them lie. I do however like to carry a big stick. Which I rarely ever have to use...Be well!!!

H;0)

PS I have to agree with the Professor on his views of the subject.


It's a very, very solid track of games, with some very good people running them. Brett does a great job of putting it all together, and it's well worth coming here to experience. longer report coming; it's been raining here all day, and it's now stopped long enough for me to get the electronics out of the van. I are tired, I are... :)

I just have to walk away. Sad to watch, but I choose not to enable that kind of thing. :(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 20, 2017, 08:09:42 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;946687
* headdesk *
* headdesk *
* headdesk *
* headdesk *
* headdesk *
* headdesk *
* headdesk *
* headdesk *

Yep. I was not amused, and it took a while to get my BP back down.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 20, 2017, 08:12:07 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;946705
Since you don't mention getting arrested, Uncle, I can only conclude you really have the patience of saints;)!
I hope you cut him short, because what he was doing WASN'T COOL AT ALL.

That's a possible reaction, Glorious General, just don't use your own head:D!

I heard about it after the fact from several people, who know I knew Phil pretty well, and wanted my take on the old codger's real attitude. I was very glad that I wasn't there; I have no tolerance for that kind of thing, and I would not have reacted very well at all.

Agreed.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 20, 2017, 08:13:40 PM
Quote from: Baron;946714
I have another question for Lord Chirine or the Glorious General. I have a new player who wants to be a tomb-robbing thief with acrobatic skills. He wanted his character to have trained a small semi-intelligent animal, something like a counterpart to a monkey, that helps him in his work. Something that would fit into an Aladdin / Thief of Baghdad vibe. What would be a good Tekumel counterpart to a little dexterous trainable monkey?

I know that there are 'monkeys', and i'll look it it for you. Lots of 'minor' creatures are not 'in the book', so i'll have to do a little digging for you.

One could always get a 'comic sidekick', ala the movies... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 20, 2017, 08:16:45 PM
Quote from: Baron;946715
I was thinking possibly a Kuruku, if they could be trained properly?


Yes. be fun to try it, I think... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 20, 2017, 08:18:45 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;946731
Good choice, but I'd make the training happen in-game.  It's funnier that way.


This. I'd pay good money to watch this... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 20, 2017, 08:58:30 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;946743
This. I'd pay good money to watch this... :)

"Okay, it swallowed the Eye and scampered off.  When you catch it will you kill it and cut it open and waste all the training  you've already spent, or will you wait and hope it didn't disgorge the Eye and try to train it better?  Also, it shit on your second wife's sleeping mat."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 20, 2017, 09:56:44 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;946735
Alva is a he. No problem; he's just happy to see somebody using the data! :)


Oops.:o
The database provided four more Vriddi lineages and some great NPCs, including some of Phil's from his game I would guess (2354 AS).

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 20, 2017, 09:58:42 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;946688
Thank you

H:0)


Your welcome!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on February 20, 2017, 10:04:30 PM
Chirine,

If a noble is traveling with his retinue on the Sakbe Road, would his entire party travel on the second tier, or would he and the others of "worth" travel there, and the slaves, guards, cooks, etc, travel on the bottom level.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 20, 2017, 11:35:46 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;946741
Yes. be fun to try it, I think... :)


I think Greentonge had an incident with the "Small Giggler" in one of his online games... Mayhem ensues, as you are so fond of saying!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 21, 2017, 02:52:31 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;946739
I heard about it after the fact from several people, who know I knew Phil pretty well, and wanted my take on the old codger's real attitude. I was very glad that I wasn't there; I have no tolerance for that kind of thing, and I would not have reacted very well at all.

Agreed.
Oh, that explains your patience, then. Well, Uncle, we have told you in this thread that you have the patience of saints, so it was an understandable mistake!
(Also, not cool, and headdesking).

At least, I'm glad you managed to calm your BP, and didn't have to do something entirely understandable;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;946740
I know that there are 'monkeys', and i'll look it it for you. Lots of 'minor' creatures are not 'in the book', so i'll have to do a little digging for you.

One could always get a 'comic sidekick', ala the movies... :)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;946743
This. I'd pay good money to watch this... :)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;946749
"Okay, it swallowed the Eye and scampered off.  When you catch it will you kill it and cut it open and waste all the training  you've already spent, or will you wait and hope it didn't disgorge the Eye and try to train it better?  Also, it shit on your second wife's sleeping mat."
Somehow, that reminds me of something I've seen on the screen...:p
(And it shitting on your second wife's mat means mayhem would ensue, no matter what:D!)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 21, 2017, 06:03:49 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;946760
Chirine,

If a noble is traveling with his retinue on the Sakbe Road, would his entire party travel on the second tier, or would he and the others of "worth" travel there, and the slaves, guards, cooks, etc, travel on the bottom level.

Shemek


It varies, with the size of the traveling procession and the status of the traveller. A small palanquin, or somebody on foot, would be on the second layer while their mob scene of baggage, bearers, etc., were all on the bottom layer. A large palanquin, and a larger party, will usually be on the bottom layer as they simply won't fit on the middle layer. I, for example, despite being a relatively high official, went on the bottom tier as I had a pretty large baggage train that I wanted to keep an eye on. This did cause some scandalized comment, especially as I didn't have a palanquin; I couldn't afford one, at that point, and anyway I wanted to be a lot more comfortable then ostentatious - or obvious, for that matter. A few 'inducements' to various people, and we had a very nice quiet trip. By my standards, anyway... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 21, 2017, 06:06:08 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;946799
Oh, that explains your patience, then. Well, Uncle, we have told you in this thread that you have the patience of saints, so it was an understandable mistake!
(Also, not cool, and headdesking).

At least, I'm glad you managed to calm your BP, and didn't have to do something entirely understandable;).

Well, this isn't my party; this event / track is run by Brett Slocum, and he maintains a very strong position of keeping things civilized and polite. I am not going to slaughter anybody in his clanhouse, as it were, and ruin his party. So, I kept my mouth shut, and moved on.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 22, 2017, 02:37:29 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;946915
Well, this isn't my party; this event / track is run by Brett Slocum, and he maintains a very strong position of keeping things civilized and polite. I am not going to slaughter anybody in his clanhouse, as it were, and ruin his party. So, I kept my mouth shut, and moved on.

That's good advice for Tekumel as well!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 22, 2017, 06:05:22 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;946970
That's good advice for Tekumel as well!

Agreed; as Gronan has commented, courtesy is not dead.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 22, 2017, 10:02:25 PM
[ATTACH=CONFIG]706[/ATTACH]
Hello All,

I just happened to come across this sea creature...It could make a "horrible" Saturday Night Special!!!


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iFC1a3GPAFc

I'm sure they could even have some they have some semi-aquatic cousins somewhere...Hopefully they are not related to the Nyaggá!!!

Enjoy,

H:0)

PS Great name...Anything similar on Tekumel Uncle?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 23, 2017, 04:00:08 PM
Sigh.

I don't need a three foot long model of the original Starship Enterprise.
I don't have a place to STORE a three foot long model of the original Starshp Enterprise.
BUT I WANT A THREE FOOT LONG MODEL OF THE ORIGINAL STARSHIP ENTERPRISE!!!

https://www.amazon.com/u-s-s-enterprise-ncc-1701-plastic-assembly/dp/B004C5GWEW
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: RunningLaser on February 23, 2017, 04:15:15 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;947300
Sigh.

I don't need a three foot long model of the original Starship Enterprise.
I don't have a place to STORE a three foot long model of the original Starshp Enterprise.
BUT I WANT A THREE FOOT LONG MODEL OF THE ORIGINAL STARSHIP ENTERPRISE!!!

https://www.amazon.com/u-s-s-enterprise-ncc-1701-plastic-assembly/dp/B004C5GWEW

You do not store a three foot model of the original Starship Enterprise- you display it in all of it's glory!  No room?  Get rid of the couch, kitchen table...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on February 23, 2017, 05:53:28 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;947300
Sigh.

I don't need a three foot long model of the original Starship Enterprise.
I don't have a place to STORE a three foot long model of the original Starshp Enterprise.
BUT I WANT A THREE FOOT LONG MODEL OF THE ORIGINAL STARSHIP ENTERPRISE!!!

https://www.amazon.com/u-s-s-enterprise-ncc-1701-plastic-assembly/dp/B004C5GWEW

Goddamn.  That would be cool.  A D-7 would be awesome too.  If I got a Bird of Prey I'd have to get a local artist to airbrush the feathers.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 24, 2017, 04:40:14 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;947300
Sigh.

I don't need a three foot long model of the original Starship Enterprise.
I don't have a place to STORE a three foot long model of the original Starshp Enterprise.
BUT I WANT A THREE FOOT LONG MODEL OF THE ORIGINAL STARSHIP ENTERPRISE!!!

https://www.amazon.com/u-s-s-enterprise-ncc-1701-plastic-assembly/dp/B004C5GWEW

I most certainly know the feeling, Glorious General;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 24, 2017, 05:27:27 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;947430
I most certainly know the feeling, Glorious General;)!

I have the same feeling, every time I go down into the game room. Had some visitors this past weekend who had the very same reaction. :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 24, 2017, 05:30:42 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;947140
[ATTACH=CONFIG]706[/ATTACH]
Hello All,

I just happened to come across this sea creature...It could make a "horrible" Saturday Night Special!!!


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iFC1a3GPAFc

I'm sure they could even have some they have some semi-aquatic cousins somewhere...Hopefully they are not related to the Nyaggá!!!

Enjoy,

H:0)

PS Great name...Anything similar on Tekumel Uncle?

Lots and lots of things, most of which we really tried very had to avoid, and which Phil had met in his travels to the coasts of South Asia.

The Nyagga are mammals, by the way, and their DNA is compatible with human DNA. Contemplate that, for a few moments... :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 24, 2017, 05:31:35 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;947300
Sigh.

I don't need a three foot long model of the original Starship Enterprise.
I don't have a place to STORE a three foot long model of the original Starshp Enterprise.
BUT I WANT A THREE FOOT LONG MODEL OF THE ORIGINAL STARSHIP ENTERPRISE!!!

https://www.amazon.com/u-s-s-enterprise-ncc-1701-plastic-assembly/dp/B004C5GWEW

Floor games, my General? ;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 24, 2017, 05:41:09 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;947551
Lots and lots of things, most of which we really tried very had to avoid, and which Phil had met in his travels to the coasts of South Asia.

The Nyagga are mammals, by the way, and their DNA is compatible with human DNA. Contemplate that, for a few moments... :eek:


Hello Uncle,

Just a follow-up question with regard to the Nyagga. I was reading about the "trade" agreement they have with some humans. Just wondering what kinds of things could the Nyagga want...??? Besides the obvious poor sacrificial lambs(DNA and all)!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 24, 2017, 06:02:31 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;947556
Hello Uncle,

Just a follow-up question with regard to the Nyagga. I was reading about the "trade" agreement they have with some humans. Just wondering what kinds of things could the Nyagga want...??? Besides the obvious poor sacrificial lambs(DNA and all)!!!

H:0)

Having traded with them, we found them quite easy to deal with. Metal objects / tools / weapons; chlen stuff, as they can't get that; glass objects/utensils were all things we traded them In return, we got some very nice jewelry, nicely-worked objects, and some very valuable bits from the bottom of Lake Parunal. Oh, and also safe passage for our ship across the lake.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on February 24, 2017, 08:16:57 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;947552
Floor games, my General? ;)

Probably a damn good thing they don't also make a D-7.

However, I have SERIOUSLY considered getting a few of the 1/1000 models (the scale of the old AMT one) and dusting off my copy of Unca Lou's "Star Fleet Battle Manual" for GaryCon.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron on February 24, 2017, 08:22:23 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;947582
Probably a damn good thing they don't also make a D-7.

However, I have SERIOUSLY considered getting a few of the 1/1000 models (the scale of the old AMT one) and dusting off my copy of Unca Lou's "Star Fleet Battle Manual" for GaryCon.

I used to have that! I remember having those cut-outs on the floor all over the house!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on February 25, 2017, 01:41:38 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;947550
I have the same feeling, every time I go down into the game room. Had some visitors this past weekend who had the very same reaction. :)

It's a natural human reaction, isn't it:)?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;947551
Lots and lots of things, most of which we really tried very had to avoid, and which Phil had met in his travels to the coasts of South Asia.

The Nyagga are mammals, by the way, and their DNA is compatible with human DNA. Contemplate that, for a few moments... :eek:

Somehow, this factoid reminds me of a HPL story;)!
Trading with the Nyagga might be a good idea, though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 25, 2017, 06:42:26 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;947582
Probably a damn good thing they don't also make a D-7.

However, I have SERIOUSLY considered getting a few of the 1/1000 models (the scale of the old AMT one) and dusting off my copy of Unca Lou's "Star Fleet Battle Manual" for GaryCon.

Yep. I used to have, once upon a time, a squadron of both the 1/1000 D-7s and 'Constitution-class' starships all mounted on black bases with three-foot high metal rods. And a black drop cloth air-brushed with stars, and a set of very nice asteroids. And a huge set of the old Zocchi small ships as well, for table-top games. Them was the days, they was...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 25, 2017, 06:45:56 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;947629
It's a natural human reaction, isn't it:)?

Somehow, this factoid reminds me of a HPL story;)!
Trading with the Nyagga might be a good idea, though.

It is, I think, and frankly what I am looking for. As I have mentioned in this thread and other places, I'm mostly a builder of things and what I game for is to see the amazed reaction of players to what I build. Nowadays, I have digital photos and the Internet, so I can get the same reaction. If anybody wants to organize up a game, we'll talk, but I get my jollies from the comments section... :)

You're supposed to. Phil was very right up front about this, having been an HPL fan starting in the 1940s.

Yep. Keeps the water out of the boat, it does.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 25, 2017, 11:55:35 AM
Photos from Con of the North are now up on my blog for your amusement and bemusement...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on February 25, 2017, 01:02:18 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;947686
Photos from Con of the North are now up on my blog for your amusement and bemusement...


So cool. I am seriously thinking of going to next year's Con of the North and/or a visit to the Workbench!!! I have no extra obligations besides normal work schedule...I have played EPT at a local con, but last year sadly no Tekumel. So no con.


H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 25, 2017, 02:36:20 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;947689
So cool. I am seriously thinking of going to next year's Con of the North and/or a visit to the Workbench!!! I have no extra obligations besides normal work schedule...I have played EPT at a local con, but last year sadly no Tekumel. So no con.


H:0)

It's a very good, very solid track of programming, and I highly suggest it - in the fall, I can equally suggest U-Con in Ann Arbor.

Visits to the Workbench are always in order; I very rarely have a weekend booking, these days. It was suggested, by several of the out-of-towners at the convention, that I have Brett build a group visit to the house into the programming schedule - Sunday mornings are particularly quiet at the convention, and 'Breakfast at Chirine's' sounds like a good way to start the day. We'd have to get a large passenger van, to carry everyone to and fro, but that's already in hand... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on February 27, 2017, 01:48:41 PM
In the dark corners of the (under)world, how much of the original mold, fungus and other such life thrives?

Was it something often encountered and if so, was it all hazardous?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on February 27, 2017, 05:34:35 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;947905
In the dark corners of the (under)world, how much of the original mold, fungus and other such life thrives?

Was it something often encountered and if so, was it all hazardous?
=

The deeper, older, and less frequented you get, the more of this kind of thing you'll encounter. The 'vermin' are also usually smaller and a little less hostile, as the ecosystem down in the deepest parts of underworlds seems to be less active then higher up, where food is more plentiful. (Hekellu's underworld was much like this on all levels, due to the high water table and generally soggy nature of the place.) We'd run into this kind of thing all the time; unless an area is being actively maintained by somebody, this stuff creeps right back in and takes over. Generally, it was more annoying then deadly, but there are pockets of really lethal stuff mixed in with the more ordinary kinds of things. One issue is when the stuff gets on your clothes and gear, and starts to grow and take it over. A good cleaning occasionally helps, once you're back to the surface, but if you let it go you often loose all your gear that's organic - including anything made of chlen hide, like your armor.

So, we got careful, and generally stayed out of any patches of this kind of thing we found. May have missed a few treasures that way, but stayed alive and kept our gear intact.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 01, 2017, 12:54:00 PM
Was playing in the slums of Jakalla boring? Is that why nobody wants to start a game as a "boat person"?
Is being a refugee a problem because of the "current" Real World politics?

Yeah, life sucks as a refugee but it is also full of "excitement" which people seem to be looking for in games.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 01, 2017, 02:56:08 PM
Yes, playing in the slums of Jakalla was boring as hell.  I never had a taste for playing "den of thieves" type games, and at best that's what it was.  Mugging other beggars for coppers, or fighting to avoid being mugged yourself, is not my idea of fun.

You could not leave the Foreigner's Quarters without escort until you were third level, and Phil enforced that vigorously.  It's why I joined the army as soon as I hit third level.

It also pissed me off royally when Phil started Mirusiya's "New Men" out as citizens and nobles; my character was still Nakome, and they treated me, both in and out of character, like shit.  And meanwhile as a non-citizen, clanless barbarian, I had to eat all the shit I was dished.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron on March 01, 2017, 03:15:09 PM
Well, it's too bad that the FQ was presented in a less-than-interesting fashion in the Professor's campaign. But it can certainly work with the right people involved. My own players and I are still having fun there, and Thieves World's Sanctuary, as an example, has been very popular over the years.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 01, 2017, 06:53:04 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;947949
The deeper, older, and less frequented you get, the more of this kind of thing you'll encounter. The 'vermin' are also usually smaller and a little less hostile, as the ecosystem down in the deepest parts of underworlds seems to be less active then higher up, where food is more plentiful. (Hekellu's underworld was much like this on all levels, due to the high water table and generally soggy nature of the place.) We'd run into this kind of thing all the time; unless an area is being actively maintained by somebody, this stuff creeps right back in and takes over. Generally, it was more annoying then deadly, but there are pockets of really lethal stuff mixed in with the more ordinary kinds of things. One issue is when the stuff gets on your clothes and gear, and starts to grow and take it over. A good cleaning occasionally helps, once you're back to the surface, but if you let it go you often loose all your gear that's organic - including anything made of chlen hide, like your armor.

So, we got careful, and generally stayed out of any patches of this kind of thing we found. May have missed a few treasures that way, but stayed alive and kept our gear intact.
If Phil wanted to make sure PCs'd pay at least as much attention to cleanliness as real-world Indians of high caste, there are worse ways to achieve that than a hazard that destroys their equipment:D!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;948300
Yes, playing in the slums of Jakalla was boring as hell.  I never had a taste for playing "den of thieves" type games, and at best that's what it was.  Mugging other beggars for coppers, or fighting to avoid being mugged yourself, is not my idea of fun.

You could not leave the Foreigner's Quarters without escort until you were third level, and Phil enforced that vigorously.  It's why I joined the army as soon as I hit third level.
Couldn't you join the army on the return from a "job":)?

Quote
It also pissed me off royally when Phil started Mirusiya's "New Men" out as citizens and nobles; my character was still Nakome, and they treated me, both in and out of character, like shit.  And meanwhile as a non-citizen, clanless barbarian, I had to eat all the shit I was dished.
I'm sure you didn't take the OOC treatment without objections?

Quote from: Baron;948303
Well, it's too bad that the FQ was presented in a less-than-interesting fashion in the Professor's campaign. But it can certainly work with the right people involved. My own players and I are still having fun there, and Thieves World's Sanctuary, as an example, has been very popular over the years.
Yeah, but doesn't mean Sanctuary would be equally popular among everyone:D!

I mean, what's more popular than dungeon crawling?
And yet, the way Gronan sees "mugging other beggars for coppers" is more or less how I view crawling in most dungeons I'd encountered: I can do it just fine, it's boring. Which is why I* prefer not playing a dungeoncrawling game unless I trust the Referee to make it fun. Give me a world to explore, though, and things change quite** a bit.

*Assuming you care about my preferences, but I'm using them as an example. Sorry if I'm rambling in the thread...I'm not even drunk, yet. Maybe I'll start in a while, and hopefully that should help:D!
Yeah, this night sucks, though the evening was just fine.

**Like "manipulating and commanding people outranking me by up to 10 levels", in settings similar*** to Tekumel. Yes, there are IC means to determine their level in WHoOG, and no, I don't care about their personal power: there's stuff I can do for them, so there better be stuff they can do for me, too:p!

***Fantasy Ancient China should count;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 01, 2017, 07:11:33 PM
So, would playing a Thieves World's Sanctuary flavor of the Foreigner's Quarter break "canon"?

From your experience, was there enough of an influx of refugee/immigrants to give an unusual amount of fluidity to the game that the normal strict social structure could be flexed a bit?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 01, 2017, 09:47:02 PM
I've read Thieves' World.  Though you could play the foreigner's quarters like that... it's your game... that was not how Phil pictured or described it.  The Foreigner's Quarter was a shit hole that any sentient creature could not wait to get out of.  "Ruling" the foreigner's quarters would be like being "king of the shit eaters."  You're still a shit eater.

Really, foreigners were "untouchables."  The Empire didn't care what they did there because they were non-persons.  And there was no money there.

Don't think of Sanctuary, think of the God damned "black hole of Calcutta" and you're closer to the mark.  There was nothing "exotic" or "adventurous" or "edgy" about the foreigner's quarter; it was a festering dung heap.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 01, 2017, 10:52:43 PM
May I offer an opinion?

I came in right when Gronan finally got something nice, and we didn't play in the FQ at all after that; all of us had gone up enough in 'level' - and I started at third, BTW - so that we didn't go there any more; place- and job-seekers came to us.

Gronan's 'Calcutta' comment is entirely accurate, in Phil's case; Phil used his time in the similar very slums of South Asia for the basis of his version of the FQ. And, in my opinion, while it's 'historically accurate' and 'canon' to run it that way - and I kinda puke whenever I hear the word 'canon' - it's also not very 'playable' or 'gameable' unless you happen to be Phil with his rich lifetime of experiences with the seamier sides of life in the Third World. Which may be why he didn't use it again as a setting, after the first couple of years of gaming; I dunno.

Would I use "Thieves' World"? Maybe, if that's what the players wanted and/or expected. Normally, I'd do what Phil did after he'd gotten a few years of DMing under his belt and start people in the society with bit of connection and status. Yes, still low level, but socially acceptable. Do what you need to do for your game - in the end, that's what really matters.

And as for what those folks were like, read Fine's book. The first few years of Phil's campaign was very different from the next decade, once we spilt off into our own group. Had a much nicer time, too; Gronan is being very diplomatic...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 02, 2017, 06:55:29 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;948416
Gronan's 'Calcutta' comment is entirely accurate, in Phil's case; Phil used his time in the similar very slums of South Asia for the basis of his version of the FQ. And, in my opinion, while it's 'historically accurate' and 'canon' to run it that way - and I kinda puke whenever I hear the word 'canon' - it's also not very 'playable' or 'gameable' unless you happen to be Phil with his rich lifetime of experiences with the seamier sides of life in the Third World. Which may be why he didn't use it again as a setting, after the first couple of years of gaming; I dunno.
Quote from: chirine ba kal;948416
Do what you need to do for your game - in the end, that's what really matters.

I guess this is the thing that gets to me. It is first and foremost a Game Setting and yet people treat it as an Actual Real Place.
So much angst and vitriol over the "Real Tekumel" and against not sticking to the "facts" of the setting.

It is good to hear that someone who played in the original games doesn't feel that, not slavishly following what has been documented, is some kind of horrific slander.

I feel there is so much potential to go off on a unique "branch of the tree" and have fun.
It is a pity that there is such trepidation of scorn, if that is done.
That somehow, it is a desecration.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 02, 2017, 02:48:21 PM
Well, it IS Phil's game, so in some sense there is a base of "authorial intent."  Phil's whole vision of his game was that the players were part of this huge, bureaucratic empire, presenting a very different foundation from the typical D&D wandering adventurer.

There is a long sliding scale with "D&D with different monsters" on one end, and "exact duplicate of Phil's Tekumel" on the other.  Position the slider where you will.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron on March 02, 2017, 03:02:51 PM
Well, for 99% of the gaming world, what "gaming in Tekumel" means comes from the published works. EPT postulates new characters gaming as FQ residents for three levels. Ergo, this scenario must be 'playable' for the majority of folks. How the author gamed at his table, what anyone experienced at that table, and how everyone who plays actually chooses to play, is all entirely variable. I won't be playing an unplayable starving disease-ridden Untouchable lying in a cesspool of feces and urine for even one session, let alone three levels. Also I find it hard to believe that Low, Medium and High social status foreigners will be staying in resthouses in such a FQ. Sounds more like an international incident waiting to happen, to me. See Barry Blatt's 'These Mean Streets' if it's difficult to imagine playing in a playable poor, lower class slum of foreigners. But in any case, please note that I'm repeating the same phrase everyone else is, that we play games however we choose to. Again Gronan, sorry that you didn't enjoy your experience.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 02, 2017, 06:57:10 PM
Barry Blatt's 'These Mean Streets' (http://www.tekumel.com/vog12_01.html) is a wonderful example of why the setting is not popular.  IMHO
"This correctness includes talking to lower caste people as if they were shit, and grovelling outrageously to anyone upper caste." would grate on just about anyone that you would actually want to play a game with.

Even my toned down version of just being rude and inconsiderate rankles players.

Thieves' World would be far more acceptable to players.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron on March 02, 2017, 07:03:18 PM
You're entitled to your opinion, but your anecdotal experience is of no more validity than anyone else's.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on March 03, 2017, 03:01:48 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;948548
Barry Blatt's 'These Mean Streets' (http://www.tekumel.com/vog12_01.html) is a wonderful example of why the setting is not popular.  IMHO
"This correctness includes talking to lower caste people as if they were shit, and grovelling outrageously to anyone upper caste." would grate on just about anyone that you would actually want to play a game with.

Even my toned down version of just being rude and inconsiderate rankles players.

Thieves' World would be far more acceptable to players.
=


I see an interesting discrepancy between players of games in Tekumel in the US and the UK (and maybe Europe). In the Uk we still have a very much class based society and our media is full of examples of the rich posh boys doing unspeakable things to poor people. The society is the US is very different and has none of the class based issues. The US issues normally revolve around not being white more than being poor with non-whites generally being at the poor end of the scale as well. In my view this makes it a lot harder for US players to accept the FQ than UK (and European) players who generally have more cultural exposure to status as class.

Phil's exposure to Eastern cultures make him exceptional as an US RPG author and indeed as a US citizen most of whom rarely travel beyond their own borders. His use of this exposure to make him game far more out there than anything else has tended to push Tekumel to the fringes of gaming as most of his potential audience cannot identify with the situations he places them in and don't enjoy it even if they try.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on March 03, 2017, 06:58:44 AM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;948581
I see an interesting discrepancy between players of games in Tekumel in the US and the UK (and maybe Europe). In the Uk we still have a very much class based society and our media is full of examples of the rich posh boys doing unspeakable things to poor people. The society is the US is very different and has none of the class based issues. The US issues normally revolve around not being white more than being poor with non-whites generally being at the poor end of the scale as well. In my view this makes it a lot harder for US players to accept the FQ than UK (and European) players who generally have more cultural exposure to status as class.

Phil's exposure to Eastern cultures make him exceptional as an US RPG author and indeed as a US citizen most of whom rarely travel beyond their own borders. His use of this exposure to make him game far more out there than anything else has tended to push Tekumel to the fringes of gaming as most of his potential audience cannot identify with the situations he places them in and don't enjoy it even if they try.


Exceptional...!!!

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 03, 2017, 07:05:55 AM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;948581
Phil's exposure to Eastern cultures make him exceptional as an US RPG author and indeed as a US citizen most of whom rarely travel beyond their own borders. His use of this exposure to make him game far more out there than anything else has tended to push Tekumel to the fringes of gaming as most of his potential audience cannot identify with the situations he places them in and don't enjoy it even if they try.

Thank you.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 03, 2017, 07:46:11 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;948464
I guess this is the thing that gets to me. It is first and foremost a Game Setting and yet people treat it as an Actual Real Place.
So much angst and vitriol over the "Real Tekumel" and against not sticking to the "facts" of the setting.

It is good to hear that someone who played in the original games doesn't feel that, not slavishly following what has been documented, is some kind of horrific slander.

I feel there is so much potential to go off on a unique "branch of the tree" and have fun.
It is a pity that there is such trepidation of scorn, if that is done.
That somehow, it is a desecration.
=

It gets to me, too. Phil was pretty clear, over the years, that 'real Tekumel' was the space where he was writing his novels about the place. What happened in his basement of an evening was not. He liked it have a fun time, hearkening back to his childhood with people like Conan the Cimmerian and John Carter of Virginia.

The 'Tekumel is a real place' stuff got started by some people who need to be IMPORTANT - "Barker's Own", as they are called. People who tell you that you can't read Phil's texts and make up your own mind - you have to have it all 'properly interpreted' for you to 'properly understand Tekumel'.

I believe that's a load of chlen poop. I run what many people think is a 'canon' campaign. No. What I do is use all the mass of information that Phil left us about his creation, and then I use that to run games that people enjoy. Just like I do with my Barsoom, Ancient Egyptian, or Pirate settings. Is Lord Meren 'canon'? I don't know; I don't worry about it, and get on with investigating who's made off with the Queen's jewels.

And I do get crap for this attitude, in the tiny little hothouse world of 'main****** Tekumel fandom'. The same people who told me that my book about our adventures is AWFUL because "it makes Tekumel sound like fun". Not enough 'grimdark' and 'realism'. Well, tough; our games with Phil had some truly scary and terrible moments - we had adventures. And generally, we had fun.

"Here's my Tekumel; now, make it your own." - M. A. R. Barker
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 03, 2017, 08:02:34 AM
Quote from: Baron;948508
Well, for 99% of the gaming world, what "gaming in Tekumel" means comes from the published works. EPT postulates new characters gaming as FQ residents for three levels. Ergo, this scenario must be 'playable' for the majority of folks. How the author gamed at his table, what anyone experienced at that table, and how everyone who plays actually chooses to play, is all entirely variable. I won't be playing an unplayable starving disease-ridden Untouchable lying in a cesspool of feces and urine for even one session, let alone three levels. Also I find it hard to believe that Low, Medium and High social status foreigners will be staying in resthouses in such a FQ. Sounds more like an international incident waiting to happen, to me. See Barry Blatt's 'These Mean Streets' if it's difficult to imagine playing in a playable poor, lower class slum of foreigners. But in any case, please note that I'm repeating the same phrase everyone else is, that we play games however we choose to. Again Gronan, sorry that you didn't enjoy your experience.


Agreed; that's because well over three-quarters of the published works are out of print, not on line, and not available to people. The vast majority of what's been published for Tekumel over the past decades presents, in my opinion, a very different picture of Phil's Tekumel then what's being touted as 'canon' these days. What we did back in the day was very different then what you can see today, and I think Phil's Tekumel suffers greatly for this.

The Tekumel we lived in was, from what I can see, a very different place then what most people think it is. Which I think is too bad; it was fun, scary, and exciting. I've noticed that when I run 'our Tekumel' for people, they tend to like it; to quote entirely too many people that I've talked to over too many years, "I wish I'd met you first!" I happen to love Phil's Tekumel, and possibly it's biggest fan. Which is why this thread exists, really, to tell you about the Tekumel I knew and love and the man who created it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on March 03, 2017, 12:53:37 PM
Hey Chirine/Gronan:

Barry Blatt's 'These Mean Streets' (http://www.tekumel.com/vog12_01.html)
Is this thing accurate, either to the Tekumel in BookSpace or the Tekumel at Phil's table?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 03, 2017, 12:53:47 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;948608
I happen to love Phil's Tekumel, and possibly it's biggest fan. Which is why this thread exists, really, to tell you about the Tekumel I knew and love and the man who created it.

I, for one, Thank You for it.

While I have no problem creating my own version of Tekumel, it is nice to pull things in "whole cloth" when possible.
Adds/keeps a flavor that I likely would not have thought of and makes it interesting for me, not just the players.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 03, 2017, 01:31:24 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;948408
I've read Thieves' World.  Though you could play the foreigner's quarters like that... it's your game... that was not how Phil pictured or described it.  The Foreigner's Quarter was a shit hole that any sentient creature could not wait to get out of.  "Ruling" the foreigner's quarters would be like being "king of the shit eaters."  You're still a shit eater.

Really, foreigners were "untouchables."  The Empire didn't care what they did there because they were non-persons.  And there was no money there.

Don't think of Sanctuary, think of the God damned "black hole of Calcutta" and you're closer to the mark.  There was nothing "exotic" or "adventurous" or "edgy" about the foreigner's quarter; it was a festering dung heap.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;948416
May I offer an opinion?

I came in right when Gronan finally got something nice, and we didn't play in the FQ at all after that; all of us had gone up enough in 'level' - and I started at third, BTW - so that we didn't go there any more; place- and job-seekers came to us.

Gronan's 'Calcutta' comment is entirely accurate, in Phil's case; Phil used his time in the similar very slums of South Asia for the basis of his version of the FQ. And, in my opinion, while it's 'historically accurate' and 'canon' to run it that way - and I kinda puke whenever I hear the word 'canon' - it's also not very 'playable' or 'gameable' unless you happen to be Phil with his rich lifetime of experiences with the seamier sides of life in the Third World. Which may be why he didn't use it again as a setting, after the first couple of years of gaming; I dunno.

Would I use "Thieves' World"? Maybe, if that's what the players wanted and/or expected. Normally, I'd do what Phil did after he'd gotten a few years of DMing under his belt and start people in the society with bit of connection and status. Yes, still low level, but socially acceptable. Do what you need to do for your game - in the end, that's what really matters.

And as for what those folks were like, read Fine's book. The first few years of Phil's campaign was very different from the next decade, once we spilt off into our own group. Had a much nicer time, too; Gronan is being very diplomatic...

Quote from: Greentongue;948464
I guess this is the thing that gets to me. It is first and foremost a Game Setting and yet people treat it as an Actual Real Place.
So much angst and vitriol over the "Real Tekumel" and against not sticking to the "facts" of the setting.
I do both. In fact, I treat all settings as "real places"...but they're only "real places" if the guy who is running the game brings you there.
The best another GM can do is get you to a similarly-looking "real place".
Think about GMs as Amberites and different campaigns as Shadows, and you'd have my point of view:).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;948506
There is a long sliding scale with "D&D with different monsters" on one end, and "exact duplicate of Phil's Tekumel" on the other.  Position the slider where you will.
In a word, this.

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;948581
I see an interesting discrepancy between players of games in Tekumel in the US and the UK (and maybe Europe). In the Uk we still have a very much class based society and our media is full of examples of the rich posh boys doing unspeakable things to poor people. The society is the US is very different and has none of the class based issues. The US issues normally revolve around not being white more than being poor with non-whites generally being at the poor end of the scale as well. In my view this makes it a lot harder for US players to accept the FQ than UK (and European) players who generally have more cultural exposure to status as class.

Phil's exposure to Eastern cultures make him exceptional as an US RPG author and indeed as a US citizen most of whom rarely travel beyond their own borders. His use of this exposure to make him game far more out there than anything else has tended to push Tekumel to the fringes of gaming as most of his potential audience cannot identify with the situations he places them in and don't enjoy it even if they try.
You are on to something. As an example, none of the Bulgarian players I've bothered to introduce to Tekumel has had any problems getting it. It was clear to all of us that the game is becoming part of the elite - only then can you enact any changes, if you still feel like it!
Flashing Blades was equally simple to grasp for this very reason, too;).

In contrast, US players were telling on another forum how they'd feel compelled to head a slave revolt, or something equally stupid and destructive. Admittedly, that was their reason for not wanting to play in Tekumel, so they might have been overstating it:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 03, 2017, 01:56:04 PM
Well, my first thought is "why are you playing Tekumel?"  If you want to play in Sanctuary, why not play in Sanctuary?  If  you want to play in Lankhmar, why not play in Lankhmar?

This has nothing to do with "Tekumel purity" and everything to do with "using a tool in the way it was designed."  You could play PENDRAGON as a game of looting dungeons and mugging kobolds, sure, but why on EARTH would you?  Not that it's "wrong" or "bad," but it to me would be like driving nails with a screwdriver.

Phil wrote EPT as a game of "fitting in to society." If you don't want to play a game of fitting into society, why are you playing it?

Form follows function.

"Forms follow function, Haldeman, and sometimes obliterate it completely.  This is the iron law of bureaucracy."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 03, 2017, 01:58:12 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;948645
Well, my first thought is "why are you playing Tekumel?"  If you want to play in Sanctuary, why not play in Sanctuary?  If  you want to play in Lankhmar, why not play in Lankhmar?

This has nothing to do with "Tekumel purity" and everything to do with "using a tool in the way it was designed."  You could play PENDRAGON as a game of looting dungeons and mugging kobolds, sure, but why on EARTH would you?  Not that it's "wrong" or "bad," but it to me would be like driving nails with a screwdriver.

Phil wrote EPT as a game of "fitting in to society." If you don't want to play a game of fitting into society, why are you playing it?

Form follows function.

"Forms follow function, Haldeman, and sometimes obliterate it completely.  This is the iron law of bureaucracy."

I shall use that quote in a game;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 03, 2017, 02:01:05 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;948638
Hey Chirine/Gronan:

Barry Blatt's 'These Mean Streets' (http://www.tekumel.com/vog12_01.html)
Is this thing accurate, either to the Tekumel in BookSpace or the Tekumel at Phil's table?


Honestly, tl;dr.  I skimmed about half of it.

However, nobody with any status would be content in staying in the foreigners' quarter any longer than they had to.  Think of Blackthorne's crew in SHOGUN staying in the Ita district as opposed to Blackthorne's reaction.

Of course, I didn't really like "Thieves' World" all that well either, so maybe I'm not the intended audience.  But honestly this seems to me like playing PENDRAGON and deciding you want to be King of the Beggars.  There are other games that work better for that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron on March 03, 2017, 02:16:42 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;948645
Well, my first thought is "why are you playing Tekumel?"  If you want to play in Sanctuary, why not play in Sanctuary?  If  you want to play in Lankhmar, why not play in Lankhmar?

This has nothing to do with "Tekumel purity" and everything to do with "using a tool in the way it was designed."  You could play PENDRAGON as a game of looting dungeons and mugging kobolds, sure, but why on EARTH would you?  Not that it's "wrong" or "bad," but it to me would be like driving nails with a screwdriver.

Phil wrote EPT as a game of "fitting in to society." If you don't want to play a game of fitting into society, why are you playing it?

Form follows function.

"Forms follow function, Haldeman, and sometimes obliterate it completely.  This is the iron law of bureaucracy."

That is about the most effective argument I've ever seen to discourage people from even looking at Tekumel. Congrats.

I never said people who want to play in Sanctuary should play characters in Jakalla's FQ. I said that playing characters in the FQ should be just that, playable. And pointed to the fact that EPT is written specifically so that every PC will. So it's your responsibility to run it in a playable fashion. If you want to play a GAME, which is supposed to be a fun thing.

Then I tried to come up with a couple of examples of playing characters in lower class slums. It can certainly be made to be an enjoyable challenge. There's no reason to make the players get disgusted and quit. In any game, in any setting. Such beginnings can be a step in any future hero's journey to greatness. You were disgusted. Sorry 'bout that, but not my fault, and I'm certainly not obliged to do the same to my players.

Now, because I can imagine, play and run games in such a setting, doesn't mean I'm not interested in playing in Tekumel. Is Tekumel gaming ABOUT fitting into a society? In some respect, any role-playing game will have a setting for the characters to strut and fret their hour upon the stage. But it doesn't have to be the focus of play; that choice is for my players and I to make. Becoming more powerful seems to be the most common motivation for characters. And as a foreign visitor to a strange land, working my way up to being able to leave the FQ is a good short-term goal.

So I don't see a problem. I don't even see how it's an issue. And I'll bring up this anecdotal thing again. Maybe I run with more mature players (although many of them are young people). But I've never yet, in 40 years, had a player not understand a situation like "You're looked down upon, it's up to you to put up with it and become mighty." I don't think you need to be a non-American to get it.

But game on. Let's hear more stories about gaming at Phil's table, and less about what won't work or won't fit. OK?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 03, 2017, 07:08:46 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;948645
Well, my first thought is "why are you playing Tekumel?"  If you want to play in Sanctuary, why not play in Sanctuary?  If  you want to play in Lankhmar, why not play in Lankhmar?

This has nothing to do with "Tekumel purity" and everything to do with "using a tool in the way it was designed."  You could play PENDRAGON as a game of looting dungeons and mugging kobolds, sure, but why on EARTH would you?  Not that it's "wrong" or "bad," but it to me would be like driving nails with a screwdriver.

Phil wrote EPT as a game of "fitting in to society." If you don't want to play a game of fitting into society, why are you playing it?

Form follows function.

"Forms follow function, Haldeman, and sometimes obliterate it completely.  This is the iron law of bureaucracy."


On the Other Hand, my first impression of Tekumel was a game like the graphic novel "Den".
A blend of super tech and cosmic horrors in a far future world.
There are human countries most notable because of the primary colors of their armor.
You start as a refugee arriving in a small boat and with luck and smarts become a Notable Hero!
The whole complex social order thing was boiled down to Levels and Classes.
So it was painted with a broad brush. Who cared? Let's explore this place where we didn't already know what to expect.
Where anything we had read adventure books about growing up, could be stuck in and seem to fit.

Those that sat at the knees of The Master were few and far away.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 04, 2017, 11:44:32 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;948638
Hey Chirine/Gronan:

Barry Blatt's 'These Mean Streets' (http://www.tekumel.com/vog12_01.html)
Is this thing accurate, either to the Tekumel in BookSpace or the Tekumel at Phil's table?

I've now read this.

My first impression is that it takes mostly the more extreme elements of Phil's works and uses them to create a viable game scenario. It works very well as a 'one-off', but is is a little too 'grimdark' and 'gritty' for the level and intensity of what I saw happen in Phil's games with our group. I  didn't see anything like this, in my time with Phil.

Capsule review: good game scenario, which is what it is, and difficult to sustain long-term campaign basis. Good backstory stuff, though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 04, 2017, 11:45:56 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;948639
I, for one, Thank You for it.

While I have no problem creating my own version of Tekumel, it is nice to pull things in "whole cloth" when possible.
Adds/keeps a flavor that I likely would not have thought of and makes it interesting for me, not just the players.
=

You're welcome. It's what I'm here for, and why I tried so hard to archive what Phil created.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 05, 2017, 06:36:38 AM
I've noticed that there are two typos that i cant seem to fix. and are coming up as *****. It should have been 'main******' and 'living'; no idea what's going on. I am not on my usual machine or server, though...




it should be 'main
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: crkrueger on March 05, 2017, 06:38:09 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;949175
I've noticed that there are two typos that i cant seem to fix. and are coming up as *****. It should have been 'main******' and 'living'; no idea what's going on. I am not on my usual machine or server, though...




it should be 'main

Something is going on with the words l.i.v.e. and s.t.r.e.a.m. it may have something to do with all those ad posts filled with video feeds of boxing matches that hit the site yesterday.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 05, 2017, 06:40:44 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;949176
Something is going on with the words l.i.v.e. and s.t.r.e.a.m. it may have something to do with all those ad posts filled with video feeds of boxing matches that hit the site yesterday.

Oh, really... Missed all that, but it does make sense... Thank you!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Big Andy on March 05, 2017, 12:42:10 PM
Ruun question. If they are set to guard Object A and not let it leave the location and someone sneaks it out or whatever, will they pursue essentially forever until they get it back (or until they are destroyed or lose track at least)? I guess the same goes for undead guardians? And I assume they would remember the thieves if they came back to the same locale?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 05, 2017, 08:39:28 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;948709
On the Other Hand, my first impression of Tekumel was a game like the graphic novel "Den".
A blend of super tech and cosmic horrors in a far future world.
There are human countries most notable because of the primary colors of their armor.
You start as a refugee arriving in a small boat and with luck and smarts become a Notable Hero!
The whole complex social order thing was boiled down to Levels and Classes.
So it was painted with a broad brush. Who cared? Let's explore this place where we didn't already know what to expect.
Where anything we had read adventure books about growing up, could be stuck in and seem to fit.

Those that sat at the knees of The Master were few and far away.
=


Whereas my first impression was: " Thank God, no fucking orcs, elves or dwarves."
By the time I had "discovered" Tekumel I had had my fill of the Tolkienesque tropes which dominated mainstream fantasy RPG's at the time, and probably still do. It was like a breath of fresh air to me, and I never looked back. I doubt I could even run or play in a non Tekumel milieu these days, as my interest would probably not even last for the gaming session.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 07, 2017, 09:11:50 AM
We're back!

The Missus and I have been off on An Adventure, and are now back here at our little house in the Northwoods. Many tales of exciting deeds and jolly fun will be told, and photos of loot and treasure to be shown. In the meantime, back to our regular programming... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 07, 2017, 09:25:16 AM
Quote from: Big Andy;949226
Ruun question. If they are set to guard Object A and not let it leave the location and someone sneaks it out or whatever, will they pursue essentially forever until they get it back (or until they are destroyed or lose track at least)? I guess the same goes for undead guardians? And I assume they would remember the thieves if they came back to the same locale?

Very interesting question - let's see if our mishaps might help...

Ru'un are, of course, powered by other-planar energy, so will be able to pursue - as you say - a guarded object forever. About the only way to escape them would be to go into a magical dead zone and run them out of their stored battery power - they do have short-duration batteries that last about a month or so - or destroy them at the outset. This is assuming that they can track the object, however; we guessed that many of the valuable devices of the Ancients being guarded had 'tracking ships' in them from what we saw, and otherwise once the Ru'un lost sensor contact with the object they tended to freeze up and just sit there. Sensor range seems to be a couple of kilometers - out to the planetary horizon, in Phil's games, as it was easy to remember. And yes, they do remember what they see, which can get very awkward as they bark nasty questions at you in a long-dead language whilst poking you in the ribs with their boltguns.

Mru'ur and other undead are, thankfully, both 'dumber' and 'less motivated' then Ru'un, and generally will not pursue anybody outside of their shrines. We guessed that this might be because of the sorcery that created them and keeps them 'alive'; either way, once you shook them off, they'd go back to the Temple of Sarku from whence they came, and we were pretty much free and clear. On the other hand, if there was a living Priest or Priestess of Sarku directing them, things got very dicey very fast as the living sentient gave them directions.

Solutions: Ru'un - avoid if at all possible; if not blast them. Mru'ur - blast them first, along with any directing sorcerers.

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 07, 2017, 09:26:30 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;949345
Whereas my first impression was: " Thank God, no fucking orcs, elves or dwarves."
By the time I had "discovered" Tekumel I had had my fill of the Tolkienesque tropes which dominated mainstream fantasy RPG's at the time, and probably still do. It was like a breath of fresh air to me, and I never looked back. I doubt I could even run or play in a non Tekumel milieu these days, as my interest would probably not even last for the gaming session.

Shemek

This. I loved Phil's Tekumel, ad still do, for these very reasons. Not that I mind elves, though; know a lot of them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on March 07, 2017, 11:43:15 AM
And I return from Vacation and other shenanigans work related!  Yay more cool Tekumel stuff to read in this thread, and help keep me excited and inspired for my game... which happened!

We had an adventure!  The PCs bungled things as only PCs can manage.  It was hilarious.  They are addicted to casting Fear Spells.  They are way less sneaky than they think, but do at least have some ability to plan and be sneaky, as they did hoodwink some guards and had a... creative plan to make the guards not  believable (after knocking them out via a sneak attack, they poured booze all over them and peed on them... eew).  They're cowards at heart, what group of PCs gets creeped out by mysterious chanting and does their best Brave Sir Robin impression and runs (bravely, naturally)?  And they managed to bowl over a young priestess of Sarku from a high lineage and High Clan* in their terrified flight.  Whoops.  After killing one of her guards in the process via a terror spell.  Poor sap went into cardiac arrest!  I can't wait for them to run into Tsurune at some point in the future in a more social setting, can we say awkward?

I'm being vague because I need to get my notes at home about the names and other stuff.  


*need to look it up, think it was High Hills clan though, which I hope is high!  I was extrapolating from some other info, so welcome more info on that!

EDIT:  And High Hills clan it is!  So definitely want more info on them as they're likely to be a bit of an antagonist for the time being!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 07, 2017, 02:08:43 PM
Many of the books I read that talk about times that resemble those of Tekumel attach a lot of importance to clothing and style.
This is seldom reflected in the games I read or hear about.
Why do you think this is and what do you think we lose by not factoring this into our games?

How could the chasing of fashion be used in the setting?
Would this be interesting or totally outside most people's thoughts of fun?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 07, 2017, 03:52:38 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;949820
And I return from Vacation and other shenanigans work related!  Yay more cool Tekumel stuff to read in this thread, and help keep me excited and inspired for my game... which happened!

We had an adventure!  The PCs bungled things as only PCs can manage.  It was hilarious.  They are addicted to casting Fear Spells.  They are way less sneaky than they think, but do at least have some ability to plan and be sneaky, as they did hoodwink some guards and had a... creative plan to make the guards not  believable (after knocking them out via a sneak attack, they poured booze all over them and peed on them... eew).  They're cowards at heart, what group of PCs gets creeped out by mysterious chanting and does their best Brave Sir Robin impression and runs (bravely, naturally)?  And they managed to bowl over a young priestess of Sarku from a high lineage and High Clan* in their terrified flight.  Whoops.  After killing one of her guards in the process via a terror spell.  Poor sap went into cardiac arrest!  I can't wait for them to run into Tsurune at some point in the future in a more social setting, can we say awkward?

I'm being vague because I need to get my notes at home about the names and other stuff.  


*need to look it up, think it was High Hills clan though, which I hope is high!  I was extrapolating from some other info, so welcome more info on that!

EDIT:  And High Hills clan it is!  So definitely want more info on them as they're likely to be a bit of an antagonist for the time being!

This sounded like it was fun!!! And I expect that more mayhem will ensue, too!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 07, 2017, 04:01:47 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;949846
Many of the books I read that talk about times that resemble those of Tekumel attach a lot of importance to clothing and style.
This is seldom reflected in the games I read or hear about.
Why do you think this is and what do you think we lose by not factoring this into our games?

How could the chasing of fashion be used in the setting?
Would this be interesting or totally outside most people's thoughts of fun?
=

Well, if I may take a run at this, most people are pre-conditioned by what the most popular genre is set in - everybody knows what the 'medieval' world of D&D looks like and how people dress, so there's no need to cover the subject in any detail either in the rules set or in the game.

Personally, I think that a lot of this kind of thing constitutes what I'd call 'flavor' and 'charm' of a setting, and it is usually lost in the rush to get down to the killing for XP. But then, I happen to like these kinds of setting details - in any of my chosen settings of Barsoom, Tekumel, XVIII Dynasty Aegypt, or Ye Buccaneers -  as I'm actively out to recreate that world setting on my table for my players to marvel at. I think that it helps with that 'immersion' aspect of games, and again that's a personal preference.

In a larger sense, the vast majority of gamers only know about this from the artwork in their preferred set of rules; most of the gamers that I have spoken with over the decades have no real idea what anything in the past - which starts about 1990, or so - really looked like. The past is, for them, one of those alien placers that are not part of their lives, so "A difference that makes no difference is no difference."

I normally describe what somebody looks like or is wearing in all of my games, and it seems to help players a lot to have these visual cues. They seem to like it, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 07, 2017, 04:02:28 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;949846
Many of the books I read that talk about times that resemble those of Tekumel attach a lot of importance to clothing and style.
This is seldom reflected in the games I read or hear about.
Why do you think this is and what do you think we lose by not factoring this into our games?

How could the chasing of fashion be used in the setting?
Would this be interesting or totally outside most people's thoughts of fun?
=


Well, if I may take a run at this, most people are pre-conditioned by what the most popular genre is set in - everybody knows what the 'medieval' world of D&D looks like and how people dress, so there's no need to cover the subject in any detail either in the rules set or in the game.

Personally, I think that a lot of this kind of thing constitutes what I'd call 'flavor' and 'charm' of a setting, and it is usually lost in the rush to get down to the killing for XP. But then, I happen to like these kinds of setting details - in any of my chosen settings of Barsoom, Tekumel, XVIII Dynasty Aegypt, or Ye Buccaneers -  as I'm actively out to recreate that world setting on my table for my players to marvel at. I think that it helps with that 'immersion' aspect of games, and again that's a personal preference.

In a larger sense, the vast majority of gamers only know about this from the artwork in their preferred set of rules; most of the gamers that I have spoken with over the decades have no real idea what anything in the past - which starts about 1990, or so - really looked like. The past is, for them, one of those alien placers that are not part of their lives, so "A difference that makes no difference is no difference."

I normally describe what somebody looks like or is wearing in all of my games, and it seems to help players a lot to have these visual cues. They seem to like it, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on March 07, 2017, 04:42:24 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;949860
This sounded like it was fun!!! And I expect that more mayhem will ensue, too!!! :)

I think everyone had fun.  I did, though was a bit sulky they kept finding ways around the RP with characters I wanted to play out like said priestess. ;)

I was also amused they kept finding ways to not do anything I expected them, then again, that's just a time honored PC tradition.  Expect only the unexpected from PCs, because if you expect them to take Path A, B, C, D.... or any number you can think of through z?  They'll somehow manage to find Path 553!

That said, anything more you can enlighten about the High Hills clan?  I wasn't even sure what 'level' (high, very high, medium, etc) they are, and just guessed high based on one of the NPCs in the bits about the city you sent me being highly ranked in a temple.  I didn't see them listed in S&G, Bethorm, or GOO Tekumel.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 07, 2017, 04:52:57 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;949871
I think everyone had fun.  I did, though was a bit sulky they kept finding ways around the RP with characters I wanted to play out like said priestess. ;)

I was also amused they kept finding ways to not do anything I expected them, then again, that's just a time honored PC tradition.  Expect only the unexpected from PCs, because if you expect them to take Path A, B, C, D.... or any number you can think of through z?  They'll somehow manage to find Path 553!

That said, anything more you can enlighten about the High Hills clan?  I wasn't even sure what 'level' (high, very high, medium, etc) they are, and just guessed high based on one of the NPCs in the bits about the city you sent me being highly ranked in a temple.  I didn't see them listed in S&G, Bethorm, or GOO Tekumel.

Great time, it sounds like!

Lots of stuff in my archives that Phil did that didn't make it into published games - there's only so much you can include, and still stay inside pagecount.

High Hills is a locally-based clan, with lots of properties in the area around the city, and would be considered a 'medium-high' clan in the local area. Not so high 'nationally'; they'd be considered a 'medium' status clan in Jakalla, and a 'lower-medium' one in Bey Su. They are largely agricultural, but do have some strong mercantile interests and are well-connected with the shipping and transport clans. Good relations with the Imperium, and are considered to be "A good, solid, loyal clan" in Avanthar. Equally good relations with the temples, too, with lots of clan members in the priesthood - mostly on the Change side, but you do get some Stability people.

Nice clanhouse; nothing fancy or ornate, just comfortable and prosperous.

Anything else?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on March 07, 2017, 05:22:10 PM
Very useful.  Seems like a good local foil for the PCs.  Just as I'd hoped.  Thank you!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 08, 2017, 06:59:52 AM
I guess my point is that as much as people rave about a game where the culture and society are unique and it is the thing that they like the most, there is very little support for the details. For example sixty four pronouns are mentioned by not listed in any source I has seen commonly available.
This implies that etiquette is very important and yet almost no details are provided to support actual gaming.

For me, as an American, trying to run or even play in a game where this is as critical as many proponents claim, would be basically impossible.
If this is required, and you are assumed to already know this type of thing, I can see why it has been passed over by the gaming masses.

While I may be derided for my crude take on the setting, I have played, had fun and made use of the setting.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on March 08, 2017, 09:07:10 AM
Interesting, I suspect that English doesn't make it any easier to comprehend the use of different pronouns for talking to others. Someone familiar with Japanese or Korean may find it easier to understand that concept. I don't known if any of the languages of the Indian sub-continent have this type of structure either. Some European languages have some a degree of this built-in (French for example) but not to any great extent.

Again I suspect that as a lot of gamers find it almost impossible to read a rulebook and expect to learn on the job as it were even if they do buy the book, then using social engagements and beating them over the head with the social constructs you are trying to impart might work but isn't very fun.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 09, 2017, 07:34:20 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;950010
... then using social engagements and beating them over the head with the social constructs you are trying to impart might work but isn't very fun.

Yes, treating that level 1 character like the "dirt" the setting thinks they are, doesn't go over well.

Many say that characters should start as "people of some importance" which reminds me of the saying, "The higher you are the harder you fall."
Social expectations of a character / person of some status are pretty intense for someone that hasn't played in the setting for years.
One slight of the wrong person and the entire clan could turn against you for their own good.

I hear there is a minor administrative position open on the Hlutrgu frontier.

chirine ba kal did this happen to new players in games you know of?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 10, 2017, 06:50:55 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;950391
Yes, treating that level 1 character like the "dirt" the setting thinks they are, doesn't go over well.

Many say that characters should start as "people of some importance" which reminds me of the saying, "The higher you are the harder you fall."
Social expectations of a character / person of some status are pretty intense for someone that hasn't played in the setting for years.
One slight of the wrong person and the entire clan could turn against you for their own good.

I hear there is a minor administrative position open on the Hlutrgu frontier.

chirine ba kal did this happen to new players in games you know of?
=

No, not in any of my games or in the ones we had with Phil. I should note that by the time I started, in early '76, Phil had had a couple of years of very 'hostile PvP' game play under his belt and there was a lot of unhappiness over the way that this played out on the table. This style of play was the major reason we 'mutinied' and the group split. We went on to have a very 'cooperative' style of play; the others kept on with their PVP style.

I don't use the 'off the boat' scenario; never have, never will. What I do is what Phil did, starting in '76, which was to give people characters already embedded in the culture in some way - sort of like pre-gens, in a way. It gets people into the culture and the world-setting a lot faster, gets them on adventures a lot faster, and gets the fun rolling a lot faster.

I have some thoughts on your other points; let me get back to you this afternoon...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 10, 2017, 02:35:02 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;950391
Yes, treating that level 1 character like the "dirt" the setting thinks they are, doesn't go over well.

Many say that characters should start as "people of some importance" which reminds me of the saying, "The higher you are the harder you fall."
Social expectations of a character / person of some status are pretty intense for someone that hasn't played in the setting for years.
One slight of the wrong person and the entire clan could turn against you for their own good.

I hear there is a minor administrative position open on the Hlutrgu frontier.

chirine ba kal did this happen to new players in games you know of?
=

If a player said "I will address him politely," or even to speak with ordinary manners of courtesy, it was never a problem.  Phil didn't make us fucking speak in Tsolyani.

There are, however, a significant number of RPG players with huge chips on their shoulders concerning issues of authority.  Not all of them are 13 years old.  Those players did not fit in well.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 10, 2017, 05:30:27 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;950496
If a player said "I will address him politely," or even to speak with ordinary manners of courtesy, it was never a problem.  Phil didn't make us fucking speak in Tsolyani.

There are, however, a significant number of RPG players with huge chips on their shoulders concerning issues of authority.  Not all of them are 13 years old.  Those players did not fit in well.

I would very, very strongly agree with this! If the player made any kind of effort to be polite and well-behaved, it was never a problem when dealing with his NPCs.

And no, the subtle nuances in his conlangs didn't feature in his game play, except as 'local color' - unless we wanted to talk about them, whereupon Phil would go into full professor mode and go on and on and on and on - he really enjoyed lecturing, and he was never, ever boring.

I'll address this further, but Gronan's point is very well taken - and is extensively documented in Gary Fine's "Shared Fantasy". Over the years, and I'd like to have Gronan speak to this as well, if Phil had a different set of people in his original Tekumel group, the publishing history - and the game itself - would have been a very different beast then what we have to work with. I think I've mentioned this before, but after the first couple of years, Phil used EPT as a guide and a game mechanic, and not as something set in stone; likewise, S&G stands as a monument to what was happening in the Monday Group. And to what was happening in our group. Now, S&G has a vast amount of useful information - but when you delve into the fine details, it's the world's longest, largest, and least playable miniatures rules set for skirmish gaming on a one-to-one scale.

I think that if Phil had play-tested - a concept not well known at the time - his RPG with 'outside' players, things would have been very different.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 10, 2017, 05:35:56 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;950010
Interesting, I suspect that English doesn't make it any easier to comprehend the use of different pronouns for talking to others. Someone familiar with Japanese or Korean may find it easier to understand that concept. I don't known if any of the languages of the Indian sub-continent have this type of structure either. Some European languages have some a degree of this built-in (French for example) but not to any great extent.

Again I suspect that as a lot of gamers find it almost impossible to read a rulebook and expect to learn on the job as it were even if they do buy the book, then using social engagements and beating them over the head with the social constructs you are trying to impart might work but isn't very fun.


Urdu, I'm told, by Ambereen Barker; we were discussing the ramifications of my extended family, and she was hugely amused that English does not have the words to describe a concept like 'quarter-step-brother's-son', while her native language does.

Agreed. I run into this all the time.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 10, 2017, 05:45:35 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;949991
I guess my point is that as much as people rave about a game where the culture and society are unique and it is the thing that they like the most, there is very little support for the details. For example sixty four pronouns are mentioned by not listed in any source I has seen commonly available.
This implies that etiquette is very important and yet almost no details are provided to support actual gaming.

For me, as an American, trying to run or even play in a game where this is as critical as many proponents claim, would be basically impossible.
If this is required, and you are assumed to already know this type of thing, I can see why it has been passed over by the gaming masses.

While I may be derided for my crude take on the setting, I have played, had fun and made use of the setting.
=


One, I do not deride you for your 'crude take' on the setting; we play the ball where it lies on the green.

Two, you are entirely correct. As Gronan remarked, simply saying "I ask them politely" was always good enough for Phil; while I had a copy of Phil's "Tsolyani Language" at the table, we didn't try to construct the pronouns as we went along; we used a lot of 'simple' words, like 'Lord' or 'Lady' to indicate rank, and didn't delve into the maze of titles in the various states. I really do wish that Phil's earlier works would be republished, as he did a lot of very useful articles on how he played his game in his world.

Over the years, I've never had issues with new players 'learning the ropes' of how to survive in Tekumel; I give them the very basic information that they need to roll up their PCs, and then turn them loose. Where I differ from some people is that I'm there to run an adventure, not a language seminar. As you point out, part of this is based on my time in the barrel, and my access to all of Phil's works. And I'm not out to push an agenda, either; I'm out to have some fun at the game table.
Title: An Essay...
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 10, 2017, 06:02:26 PM
To be frank, I wish Phil had never written the 'just-off-the-boat-in-Jakalla' bit in EPT. He intended it, he told me, as a suggestion for people; he assumed, like Gary and Dave, that people could and would make up their own adventures from the source material that he was providing. (Gary, as Gronan has remarked, was especially astonished by the commercial success of 'modules'.) In this, I think that all three were mistaken, and while Gary and Dave went on to do introductory adventures, Phil never did; he just wasn't all that interested in the 'gaming' aspect, and wanted to more of an ERB then an EGG or a DLA.

One of the big questions that preoccupied the great minds in gaming, back in the day, was how a diverse band of low-level people got together and went on an adventure. The off-the-boat gambit was Phil's way to answer this, and I personally think it's a dead end. What I've done, over the years, is have people create a low-level PC and have them embedded in society; my game group was started by 'country cousins', people from various clans who'd been sent to Jakalla to stay with their 'big-city' cousins to get an education, makes some money and connections, and bring fame and glory to their clans. It works, both in-game and out-; I had something like two dozen people play in my games over the years, and they all seemed to have a good time as they rotated in and out as real life allowed them to come and go.

I've been told that "I do Tekumel better then Phil did." I don't think so, myself; what I do is take all the lessons I learned from him about his world - and about RPG gaming from Dave and Gary - and apply them to my adventures. I've tried to bring that to life in my book, and I'm thinking that I need to run some RPGs, record them, and put them up on my You Tube channel.

Does this help, at all? Further discussion would be welcome... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 10, 2017, 06:02:36 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;950520
Over the years, I've never had issues with new players 'learning the ropes' of how to survive in Tekumel; I give them the very basic information that they need to roll up their PCs, and then turn them loose.

I seems to come up often of where a NPC, or player character for that matter, fits.
They are of a lower-mid linage of an upper-mid clan that is known for safe a hurried deliveries of valuables.
While that is clear, players want to know, "How can I tell that by looking at them?"

This is what I'm talking about. The adage "Don't tell them, show them."
There is little if any information on what the quality of fabric indicates, which accessory is a status symbol, what the size of their entourage says about them, etc...
What guides are there for "showing" the status of a person?

Since an alien society is said to be one of the "selling points", I'm surprised there is not more on the visual aspect of it.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 10, 2017, 06:26:00 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;950522
I seems to come up often of where a NPC, or player character for that matter, fits.
They are of a lower-mid linage of an upper-mid clan that is known for safe a hurried deliveries of valuables.
While that is clear, players want to know, "How can I tell that by looking at them?"

This is what I'm talking about. The adage "Don't tell them, show them."
There is little if any information on what the quality of fabric indicates, which accessory is a status symbol, what the size of their entourage says about them, etc...
What guides are there for "showing" the status of a person?

Since an alien society is said to be one of the "selling points", I'm surprised there is not more on the visual aspect of it.
=


Agreed with all your points!

Here's what breaks my heart about Tekumel: I have 34 Gigabytes of artwork by Phil and various artists done over the decades on file; probably two-thirds of it has never been published. Most of it was generated in the course of our games for precisely the reason you give - to illustrate these very questions. (And I have 32 Gigabytes of texts on file, too.)

(My old "Miniatures for Tekumel" painting guide had some of this material in it; I don't know if Carl Brodt still has any copies left, and you might want to drop him an e-mail asking if he does.)

Phil's Tekumel was always very, very visual' he'd whip out his sketches, or Chris Huddle, Kathy Marshall, or Ken Fletcher would do one of theirs. (With me painting figures as fast as I could, too.) The stuff is there; it's been suggested by several people that at 'art book' would be A Good Thing.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 10, 2017, 11:47:13 PM
I divide it between "use during gaming" and "background material."  Phil would give sketches or others would draw them, yes, but much like the languages he didn't go into great detail unless asked. He would say "He looks like this, and you recognize him as a such and such of this rank of that clan."


What he did NOT do is show a sketch and expect us to figure out status and rank just from the sketch, just like he didn't speak Tsolyani at us and expect us to understand.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 11, 2017, 08:03:39 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;950562
He would say "He looks like this, and you recognize him as a such and such of this rank of that clan."

There is my point.
As the person running the game, and not being The Professor, information on how to describe a person should be available if that is as integral to the game as some claim.
While the "you recognize him as a such and such" because of his clothing, hair and badges is how I would do it, there are players that want to know HOW?
Obviously a choice is to not play with those kind of people but, that kind of detail is put forth as a selling point by many fans of the game.
As far as I know there is not even a simple list of fabrics to draw from. Flax? Wool? Linen? Silk? What are clothes made of?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 11, 2017, 09:45:38 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;950613
There is my point.
As the person running the game, and not being The Professor, information on how to describe a person should be available if that is as integral to the game as some claim.
While the "you recognize him as a such and such" because of his clothing, hair and badges is how I would do it, there are players that want to know HOW?
Obviously a choice is to not play with those kind of people but, that kind of detail is put forth as a selling point by many fans of the game.
As far as I know there is not even a simple list of fabrics to draw from. Flax? Wool? Linen? Silk? What are clothes made of?
=

Many of the fans who make this kind of thing a selling point for the game have very little idea what they are talking about; they have, in quite a few of the conversations I've had with them over the years, a quite superficial gloss on the setting. They are devoted experts in game mechanics, but not very educated in the setting. I'm the opposite, and it baffles them; for them, recondite rules and complex mechanics are far more important then actual details. They will go on and on abut how Tekumel is so richly detailed, but they've barely scratched the surface in many cases.

As for fabrics, S&G I has a section on Costume that covers this. Yes, to all of your examples, by the way.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 11, 2017, 12:16:55 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;950613
There is my point.
As the person running the game, and not being The Professor, information on how to describe a person should be available if that is as integral to the game as some claim.
While the "you recognize him as a such and such" because of his clothing, hair and badges is how I would do it, there are players that want to know HOW?
Obviously a choice is to not play with those kind of people but, that kind of detail is put forth as a selling point by many fans of the game.
As far as I know there is not even a simple list of fabrics to draw from. Flax? Wool? Linen? Silk? What are clothes made of?
=



I would like to take a stab at this, if I may? This to me is exactly why Tekumel hasn't been a commercial success. A small minority has, over the years, perpetuated the myth that in order to play the game and adventure in the setting one has to be an expert in minutaie and have a PhD in fluff. They justify this assertion by stating that Professor Barker did it this way, therefore it's the right and only way to properly game on Tekumel. I recently heard something along these lines from one of the so-called experts. I call BS on this mind frame.
The players who think this way have drunk the kool-aid and need to be told so, and shown how a Tekumel campaign can function just fine without all the pedantic details. I can say as a long time DM of Tekumel based campaigns if I were playing in such a game I would get up and leave the first time someone corrected my pronunciation, or told me I was "doing it wrong.". My most recent game has been running for a year now. Of the four players only one is really familiar with Tekumel, one sort of knows what it's about, and the other two had not heard of it before we started the campaign. This hasn't prevented us from having a viable and fun game.
To your specific points, I would completely just fake it like you would.  "His haircut is short at the front and long in the back, but has been brought together in a Top Knot marking him as a native of the Kurt Hills. He wears the badge of the Ito Clan on his tunic, and the intricate copper jewellery he wears on his hands and around his neck mark him as a high member of this clan." All BS, as far as " canon" :rolleyes: but close enough to satisfy even the pedants I would think. As to the HOW, for those players you mention, it's really quite simple: imagination. I recently read an interesting anecdote on a website, whose name completely escapes me at the moment, about Phil. A person asked him what was located in such and such a place on the map. Phil responded that he really didn't know as he hadn't been there. The questioner was incredulous and asked him how that was possible, after all he had created the world and drawn the map. Phil responded by saying he had a general idea about what was there, but not specifics because his game hadn't gone there yet. Basically, even he hadn't developed everything, or seen the need to. This has been my approach over the years as well. I use what is available from the Sourcebook, or novels, or the Blue Room, or published articles, and make up the rest. If nothing has been written about it, who's to say that I am wrong?
BTW, the Sourcebook covers the various types of fabrics if I'm not mistaken, such as Hma wool and Gudru(?) Silk.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 11, 2017, 12:23:57 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;950665
I would like to take a stab at this, if I may? This to me is exactly why Tekumel hasn't been a commercial success. A small minority has, over the years, perpetuated the myth that in order to play the game and adventure in the setting one has to be an expert in minutaie and have a PhD in fluff. They justify this assertion by stating that Professor Barker did it this way, therefore it's the right and only way to properly game on Tekumel. I recently heard something along these lines from one of the so-called experts. I call BS on this mind frame.
The players who think this way have drunk the kool-aid and need to be told so, and shown how a Tekumel campaign can function just fine without all the pedantic details. I can say as a long time DM of Tekumel based campaigns if I were playing in such a game I would get up and leave the first time someone corrected my pronunciation, or told me I was "doing it wrong.". My most recent game has been running for a year now. Of the four players only one is really familiar with Tekumel, one sort of knows what it's about, and the other two had not heard of it before we started the campaign. This hasn't prevented us from having a viable and fun game.
To your specific points, I would completely just fake it like you would.  "His haircut is short at the front and long in the back, but has been brought together in a Top Knot marking him as a native of the Kurt Hills. He wears the badge of the Ito Clan on his tunic, and the intricate copper jewellery he wears on his hands and around his neck mark him as a high member of this clan." All BS, as far as " canon" :rolleyes: but close enough to satisfy even the pedants I would think. As to the HOW, for those players you mention, it's really quite simple: imagination. I recently read an interesting anecdote on a website, whose name completely escapes me at the moment, about Phil. A person asked him what was located in such and such a place on the map. Phil responded that he really didn't know as he hadn't been there. The questioner was incredulous and asked him how that was possible, after all he had created the world and drawn the map. Phil responded by saying he had a general idea about what was there, but not specifics because his game hadn't gone there yet. Basically, even he hadn't developed everything, or seen the need to. This has been my approach over the years as well. I use what is available from the Sourcebook, or novels, or the Blue Room, or published articles, and make up the rest. If nothing has been written about it, who's to say that I am wrong?
BTW, the Sourcebook covers the various types of fabrics if I'm not mistaken, such as Hma wool and Gudru(?) Silk.

Shemek.

This. I remember the incident quite well; the interviewer was truly shocked to find out that Phil was not a master of trivia for his own world.

I agree - it was always about imagination, which was why Phil included so many things that we added to his campaign. It was a 'shared world', not 'holy writ'.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on March 11, 2017, 01:39:39 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;950665
I would like to take a stab at this, if I may? This to me is exactly why Tekumel hasn't been a commercial success. A small minority has, over the years, perpetuated the myth that in order to play the game and adventure in the setting one has to be an expert in minutaie and have a PhD in fluff. They justify this assertion by stating that Professor Barker did it this way, therefore it's the right and only way to properly game on Tekumel. I recently heard something along these lines from one of the so-called experts. I call BS on this mind frame.
The players who think this way have drunk the kool-aid and need to be told so, and shown how a Tekumel campaign can function just fine without all the pedantic details. I can say as a long time DM of Tekumel based campaigns if I were playing in such a game I would get up and leave the first time someone corrected my pronunciation, or told me I was "doing it wrong.". My most recent game has been running for a year now. Of the four players only one is really familiar with Tekumel, one sort of knows what it's about, and the other two had not heard of it before we started the campaign. This hasn't prevented us from having a viable and fun game.
To your specific points, I would completely just fake it like you would.  "His haircut is short at the front and long in the back, but has been brought together in a Top Knot marking him as a native of the Kurt Hills. He wears the badge of the Ito Clan on his tunic, and the intricate copper jewellery he wears on his hands and around his neck mark him as a high member of this clan." All BS, as far as " canon" :rolleyes: but close enough to satisfy even the pedants I would think. As to the HOW, for those players you mention, it's really quite simple: imagination. I recently read an interesting anecdote on a website, whose name completely escapes me at the moment, about Phil. A person asked him what was located in such and such a place on the map. Phil responded that he really didn't know as he hadn't been there. The questioner was incredulous and asked him how that was possible, after all he had created the world and drawn the map. Phil responded by saying he had a general idea about what was there, but not specifics because his game hadn't gone there yet. Basically, even he hadn't developed everything, or seen the need to. This has been my approach over the years as well. I use what is available from the Sourcebook, or novels, or the Blue Room, or published articles, and make up the rest. If nothing has been written about it, who's to say that I am wrong?
BTW, the Sourcebook covers the various types of fabrics if I'm not mistaken, such as Hma wool and Gudru(?) Silk.

Shemek.


Very true. It always boils down to "make Tekumel yours". Read at the resources if you want. Ask questions(Chirine baKal is a great resource). Getting it right is not important. Having fun is. If your players are not happy with the game you give them, then let them seek happiness elsewhere. Just do it...!!! Don't get bogged down in "canon"...!!! Be yourself, not the Professor. Use what you will. After all it is just a game...!!!

Having fun exploring Tekumel,

H;0)

PS Uncle beat me to it...getting slow!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 11, 2017, 01:58:44 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;950613
There is my point.
As the person running the game, and not being The Professor, information on how to describe a person should be available if that is as integral to the game as some claim.
While the "you recognize him as a such and such" because of his clothing, hair and badges is how I would do it, there are players that want to know HOW?
Obviously a choice is to not play with those kind of people but, that kind of detail is put forth as a selling point by many fans of the game.
As far as I know there is not even a simple list of fabrics to draw from. Flax? Wool? Linen? Silk? What are clothes made of?
=

Okay, I simply wouldn't play with such a person; the GAME would never get anywhere.  Further, I would strongly suspect that the person in question didn't actually want to play, but was trying to derail the game.

Whenever I have encountered a person with such a fixation on pedantry, their other behaviors have inevitably shown that "playing the game" was not their actual agenda.

"Ah HA!  Three months ago, you said we could tell a Archymadrite of the 12th Circle of the Voldrani Supplicants by the fact that his hemi-semi-demi informal early late midafternoon hip-cloak folded to the left, but now you just said it's folded to the right?  Which is it?  What kind of world is this?  You're the worst game master ever!  Can't you even be consistent about anything?"

Sadly, not an exaggeration. And the only answer to such a person is "Bite my ass, fuckface."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 11, 2017, 02:13:22 PM
In case you're wondering, yes, I am EXTREMELY fussy about the people I play with, and suspicious as hell of the motives of a sizeable group of gamers.

It's like watching a movie with somebody who pays no attention to the plot or characters but blathers incessantly about how the special effects are done and points out every ragged edge on every matte shot.  "Shut the fuck UP!" is the only possible rational response.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 11, 2017, 06:21:27 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;950687
Okay, I simply wouldn't play with such a person; the GAME would never get anywhere.  Further, I would strongly suspect that the person in question didn't actually want to play, but was trying to derail the game.

Whenever I have encountered a person with such a fixation on pedantry, their other behaviors have inevitably shown that "playing the game" was not their actual agenda.

"Ah HA!  Three months ago, you said we could tell a Archymadrite of the 12th Circle of the Voldrani Supplicants by the fact that his hemi-semi-demi informal early late midafternoon hip-cloak folded to the left, but now you just said it's folded to the right?  Which is it?  What kind of world is this?  You're the worst game master ever!  Can't you even be consistent about anything?"

Sadly, not an exaggeration. And the only answer to such a person is "Bite my ass, fuckface."

Yep. I've had more then a few people like this, over the years, who seem to be bound and determined to prove their manhood by catching Phil and I out on some obscure detail. Phil stopped having guests, because of it. Most extreme case I've had was when I asked for a one page (one sheet, both sides) 'Introduction to Tekumel'; one of my gamers offered to do it, and came back with a 63 page cut-and-paste of the Sourcebook. He insisted that new players had to learn all this material before they could play. He's very detail-obsessive to this day, and runs the most boring games I've ever sat in on - I've sen his players fall asleep during game sessions.

I don;t mind people asking "What does this look like?" That's a normal question, and to be expected in game play. What I shy away from are the people who obsess over detail to the point that it bogs down or stops game play.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 11, 2017, 06:22:21 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;950691
In case you're wondering, yes, I am EXTREMELY fussy about the people I play with, and suspicious as hell of the motives of a sizeable group of gamers.

It's like watching a movie with somebody who pays no attention to the plot or characters but blathers incessantly about how the special effects are done and points out every ragged edge on every matte shot.  "Shut the fuck UP!" is the only possible rational response.

Same here. Double-faced deadbolt locks on all the doors are a big help with this, we've found.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 12, 2017, 04:31:08 PM
The first two posts on our trip to CincyCon VIII are now up on my blog, with photos... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 12, 2017, 06:09:53 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;950728
Yep. I've had more then a few people like this, over the years, who seem to be bound and determined to prove their manhood by catching Phil and I out on some obscure detail. Phil stopped having guests, because of it. Most extreme case I've had was when I asked for a one page (one sheet, both sides) 'Introduction to Tekumel'; one of my gamers offered to do it, and came back with a 63 page cut-and-paste of the Sourcebook. He insisted that new players had to learn all this material before they could play. He's very detail-obsessive to this day, and runs the most boring games I've ever sat in on - I've sen his players fall asleep during game sessions.

I don;t mind people asking "What does this look like?" That's a normal question, and to be expected in game play. What I shy away from are the people who obsess over detail to the point that it bogs down or stops game play.
Why didn't you hand it back to him and told him "your assignment isn't even half done - that's 31.5 times the amount of space you were allowed":)?
Some day, I'd be tempted to explain Tekumel in two pages, myself. Those would be extremely densely-packed pages, but it still would be two pages. I'm just wondering how the Foundation would react if I was to put it on my blog;)!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;950691
In case you're wondering, yes, I am EXTREMELY fussy about the people I play with, and suspicious as hell of the motives of a sizeable group of gamers.

It's like watching a movie with somebody who pays no attention to the plot or characters but blathers incessantly about how the special effects are done and points out every ragged edge on every matte shot.  "Shut the fuck UP!" is the only possible rational response.
I'm kinda that guy, though not when it comes to special effects...:D
Though, in my defence, I've learned not to share those observations. But don't ask me about the opinion after the movie, unless I say it was good:p!
Then again, lately I simply don't go to movies which contain the kind of details that would irk me.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;950665
I would like to take a stab at this, if I may? This to me is exactly why Tekumel hasn't been a commercial success. A small minority has, over the years, perpetuated the myth that in order to play the game and adventure in the setting one has to be an expert in minutaie and have a PhD in fluff. They justify this assertion by stating that Professor Barker did it this way, therefore it's the right and only way to properly game on Tekumel.

I recently read an interesting anecdote on a website, whose name completely escapes me at the moment, about Phil. A person asked him what was located in such and such a place on the map. Phil responded that he really didn't know as he hadn't been there. The questioner was incredulous and asked him how that was possible, after all he had created the world and drawn the map. Phil responded by saying he had a general idea about what was there, but not specifics because his game hadn't gone there yet. Basically, even he hadn't developed everything, or seen the need to. This has been my approach over the years as well. I use what is available from the Sourcebook, or novels, or the Blue Room, or published articles, and make up the rest. If nothing has been written about it, who's to say that I am wrong?
BTW, the Sourcebook covers the various types of fabrics if I'm not mistaken, such as Hma wool and Gudru(?) Silk.

Shemek.
They tend to forget that Phil did have a PhD, and not because of Tekumel - it's the other way around;).

Also, I think it was in this thread. It sure made me laugh, because I'm calling "know the general outline, make up details when you get to them" my method of Lazy GMing for...close to a decade, now?
And I've caught some flak over it during the years, too. Including being accused of "making up the details to suit the story instead of presenting a fixed challenge" (Illusionism, in other words).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;950848
The first two posts on our trip to CincyCon VIII are now up on my blog, with photos... :)
Those photos seem cool!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 12, 2017, 06:19:12 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;950848
The first two posts on our trip to CincyCon VIII are now up on my blog, with photos... :)

I will be reading it in full detail later.  Truthfully, my first reaction is "Good for you two!" followed shortly thereafter upon reading a bit more of the text with "Oh, my aching ass."  Travel just isn't as easy as it used to be, is it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 12, 2017, 06:24:10 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;950865
Why didn't you hand it back to him and told him "your assignment isn't even half done - that's 31.5 times the amount of space you were allowed":)?
Some day, I'd be tempted to explain Tekumel in two pages, myself. Those would be extremely densely-packed pages, but it still would be two pages. I'm just wondering how the Foundation would react if I was to put it on my blog;)!

I'm kinda that guy, though not when it comes to special effects...:D
Though, in my defence, I've learned not to share those observations. But don't ask me about the opinion after the movie, unless I say it was good:p!
Then again, lately I simply don't go to movies which contain the kind of details that would irk me.

They tend to forget that Phil did have a PhD, and not because of Tekumel - it's the other way around;).

Also, I think it was in this thread. It sure made me laugh, because I'm calling "know the general outline, make up details when you get to them" my method of Lazy GMing for...close to a decade, now?
And I've caught some flak over it during the years, too. Including being accused of "making up the details to suit the story instead of presenting a fixed challenge" (Illusionism, in other words).

Those photos seem cool!

Because this is the guy who takes any critical response as being "gay persecution", with him as the oppressed target of same.

They'd get a rash, as it's more 'unauthorized, unofficial' work by the fans; they seem to really dislike that kind of thing.

Glad you like the photos; had a great time. Another post in the works, at the moment.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 12, 2017, 06:54:19 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;950869
Because this is the guy who takes any critical response as being "gay persecution", with him as the oppressed target of same.

They'd get a rash, as it's more 'unauthorized, unofficial' work by the fans; they seem to really dislike that kind of thing.

Glad you like the photos; had a great time. Another post in the works, at the moment.
Yeah, someone should explain to him that you can be criticised for not completing the task you were given. Who you like to sleep with is subjective, but whether you turn up 2 pages or 63 is objective:).

Then I think I should start work on it as soon as time permits:D!

Glad you had so much fun, Uncle! Though your van is the unsung hero of the story.
We'll be waiting for the updates, of course;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 12, 2017, 07:22:37 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;950866
I will be reading it in full detail later.  Truthfully, my first reaction is "Good for you two!" followed shortly thereafter upon reading a bit more of the text with "Oh, my aching ass."  Travel just isn't as easy as it used to be, is it.

Yeah. The Missus has a couple of things like spinabifida and fibromyalgia that make sitting in the passenger seat really uncomfortable; I fully expected to cancel the whole trip, but she had That Look on her face and so we stopped every two hours to let her get out and stretch. Took 24 hours to do what's a nominal 11 hour drive, but then we're just not that young, any more. The stop also allowed us to raid the flight bags, which had to go in the back of the van, for snacks and fluids. We made it, there and back, and she got down to see the Thoroughbred Library. I got to talk miniatures all weekend, hobnobbed with a bunch of old TSR people, and had a very good time. Took the same time to get back, and it all worked out well; nothing broke or fell off.

This convention, coming as it did after a very good time at Con of the North, really jump-started my interest in gaming again. It was, as they say, a 'life-changing experience' after the last couple / three years of crap I've been dealing with.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 12, 2017, 07:26:59 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;950874
Yeah, someone should explain to him that you can be criticised for not completing the task you were given. Who you like to sleep with is subjective, but whether you turn up 2 pages or 63 is objective:).

Then I think I should start work on it as soon as time permits:D!

Glad you had so much fun, Uncle! Though your van is the unsung hero of the story.
We'll be waiting for the updates, of course;).

Can't; he simply does not understand the idea of brevity being wanted.

Hah! Would love to see it, too. :)

Another post done; more on the way. Yes, the poor old van really came through despite being loaded up. The books did serve as very welcome ballast, especially on the trip back home when we had torrential rains. I had to keep the speed up, as people were being run down and blown off the road in the wind and the rain, but we were very stable and had no problems.  I love the thing; it now has over 328,000 miles on the clock... :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 12, 2017, 07:48:44 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;950879
Can't; he simply does not understand the idea of brevity being wanted.

Hah! Would love to see it, too. :)

Another post done; more on the way. Yes, the poor old van really came through despite being loaded up. The books did serve as very welcome ballast, especially on the trip back home when we had torrential rains. I had to keep the speed up, as people were being run down and blown off the road in the wind and the rain, but we were very stable and had no problems.  I love the thing; it now has over 328,000 miles on the clock... :eek:

Amusingly, Uncle, that's almost exactly 13 times the length of the Equator:D! That car's a miracle of endurance.

Glad you travelled safely, despite the winds and rains, that's what counts in the end;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: christopherkubasik on March 12, 2017, 09:09:58 PM
A very mundane question that might well have been answered 300 pages ago. If so, I apologize.

chirine ba kal,

How many players tended to be in a given session in Barker's games? How many players are in the Tékumel games you run?
How much play time session was about PCs running off to deal with their own errands and personal (if any) storylines? How much was spent with the PCs all working together as a "party"?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 12, 2017, 10:45:28 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;950880
Amusingly, Uncle, that's almost exactly 13 times the length of the Equator:D! That car's a miracle of endurance.

Glad you travelled safely, despite the winds and rains, that's what counts in the end;)!

I've gotten Chevy Astro Vans as rentals a couple of times.  They are very, very easy to drive; it's nice.  Now, back in the mid 90s the engine was offset to the right so the passenger seat was a bit cramped for a six footer like me, but they may have fixed that.  It was definitely one of those vehicles that makes you feel "I could drive this all day."

God, I get weary just thinking about some of the trips we made.  Not to mention I am no longer as fond of driving through the night as I used to be.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 13, 2017, 05:36:49 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;950880
Amusingly, Uncle, that's almost exactly 13 times the length of the Equator:D! That car's a miracle of endurance.

Glad you travelled safely, despite the winds and rains, that's what counts in the end;)!


It is, indeed; we do the routine fixes, keep it in good trim, and don't do stupid things with it.

Thank you! I think the end result was quite worth it, too! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 13, 2017, 05:46:48 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;951058
It is, indeed; we do the routine fixes, keep it in good trim, and don't do stupid things with it.

Thank you! I think the end result was quite worth it, too! :)

I was envying yor technical skills even before, Uncle! Now I'm amazed, pure and simple:).

And it's the end result that matters, in this case;).

Follow-up question on Tekumel. This time, I'd like a personal opinion from you and Gronan on a question that even you're unlikely to know the answer for sure (unless you have debated a hypotetical question with MARB).

What would Phil have thought (before the Feist fiasco) about a Tekumel group which, say, was playing in the Tsolyani Empire, but shifted the cultural inspirations/influences more towards the Far East?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 13, 2017, 05:48:35 PM
Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;950890
A very mundane question that might well have been answered 300 pages ago. If so, I apologize.

chirine ba kal,

How many players tended to be in a given session in Barker's games? How many players are in the Tékumel games you run?
How much play time session was about PCs running off to deal with their own errands and personal (if any) storylines? How much was spent with the PCs all working together as a "party"?

We might have touched on this, but it was only briefly.

Phil's game room had ten chairs, so that was the maximum. Normally, there would be eight to nine of us regulars; the seats on the south side of the table were for the 'gamer' players, who were pretty constantly in action. The north side was Artists' Row, with Ken, Kathy, and Chris all doing illustrations as we went along. I had the west end of the table to myself, as I had The Portable Traveling Library along with me and so served as the collective memory of the campaign.

I usually had eight to ten players in my two groups, and that's been pretty constants over the years. I'll happily 'surge out' to the sixteen - eighteen that I had at Gary Con a few years back, but that's for special occasions.

'Play time' / 'face time'? As much or as little as was needed - we gamed at Phil's for over a dozen years, and the same here in my most recent game group. Players were / are expected to be able to 'share', and not hog all the play time for themselves. Some nights, like the night Chirine met his Senior Wife, it was all his night; other times, it was all Gronan's or Vrisa's. It all depended on what was happening in our world, and who was the best-suited to deal with the situation. If I was pressed for a percentage / ratio, I'd say that the party as a whole got about half the game session hours over a year's worth of gaming, with the rest of the time usually split pretty equally among the individual PCs as needed.

We all got face time with Phil, and I still do the same with my players. It just varied as to how we used that time.

("storylines"? We had "careers" / "lives", more then anything else... I think... New phrase to me...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 13, 2017, 05:52:15 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;950910
I've gotten Chevy Astro Vans as rentals a couple of times.  They are very, very easy to drive; it's nice.  Now, back in the mid 90s the engine was offset to the right so the passenger seat was a bit cramped for a six footer like me, but they may have fixed that.  It was definitely one of those vehicles that makes you feel "I could drive this all day."

God, I get weary just thinking about some of the trips we made.  Not to mention I am no longer as fond of driving through the night as I used to be.

This. We used to have a passenger Astro that seated six in great comfort; the idea was to us it in combination with the present cargo version for trips. Load all the gear into the steel box on wheels, load the people into the bus, and there you go. The current one has the engine housing in the center, so it's pretty good for trips if you're not the Missus.

Tell me about it. My back hurts just thinking about all those marathon trips we made for Dave while at AGI.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 13, 2017, 06:02:46 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;951059
I was envying yor technical skills even before, Uncle! Now I'm amazed, pure and simple:).

And it's the end result that matters, in this case;).

Follow-up question on Tekumel. This time, I'd like a personal opinion from you and Gronan on a question that even you're unlikely to know the answer for sure (unless you have debated a hypotetical question with MARB).

What would Phil have thought (before the Feist fiasco) about a Tekumel group which, say, was playing in the Tsolyani Empire, but shifted the cultural inspirations/influences more towards the Far East?

It's not all that hard; I am, as they say, handy with tools, and the Astro is easy to keep up. Anything serious, and it goes to the garage that's been looking after it since we got it almost a decade ago.

I actually did have this discussion with Phil a couple of times, over the years. We were talking about how to interest people in Tekumel, and I was looking for similar 'real world' cultures to use as analogs. Classical China, Mughal India, the Aztec and Maya, and the Byzantine Empire were all suggested. Phil's take on it was that one could do anything they wanted in their own game group, all of these cultures that I mentioned - if done realistically - would be so entirely alien to an Amercian audience - specifically a Midwestern American audience in the then-1980s - that one would be better to look at the old pulps for cultural inspiration. Specifically R. E. H. and E. R. B., he suggested.

As I've said, he didn't mind it; what he objected to, in the strongest possible terms, was to people demanding that he change his world to include their their 'artistic vision' as part of Official Authorized Tekumel. Not that I blamed him; we had some really bizarre stuff come in the door, over the years.

Gronan? Thoughts?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: christopherkubasik on March 13, 2017, 08:27:01 PM
Thank you so much for the reply.

As for this:
Quote from: chirine ba kal;951060
("storylines"? We had "careers" / "lives", more then anything else... I think... New phrase to me...)

Words can be difficult. Sometimes vocabulary is tricky. I certainly didn't mean anything in terms of pre-planned plot. Simply the focus on a particular character which formed, as you say, their life, apart from the rest of the Player Characters.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 13, 2017, 10:32:53 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;951066

As I've said, he didn't mind it; what he objected to, in the strongest possible terms, was to people demanding that he change his world to include their their 'artistic vision' as part of Official Authorized Tekumel. Not that I blamed him; we had some really bizarre stuff come in the door, over the years.

Gronan? Thoughts?

Yeah, some weird shit came in over the transom.

At one point after seeing a museum exhibit on Chichen Itza I was twitting Phil about stealing the word "sakbe," and he shrugged and said "after this many years I no longer remember where most my ideas come from."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 14, 2017, 05:41:24 PM
Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;951079
Thank you so much for the reply.

Words can be difficult. Sometimes vocabulary is tricky. I certainly didn't mean anything in terms of pre-planned plot. Simply the focus on a particular character which formed, as you say, their life, apart from the rest of the Player Characters.

You're welcome!

Understood! Phil had his over-arching 'world in motion' / meta plots that went on, but we interacted with them rather infrequently. We did have an effect on events - like my preventing Prince Mirusiya from getting assassinated - but mostly they were 'background color' for our adventures.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 14, 2017, 05:42:06 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;951102
Yeah, some weird shit came in over the transom.

At one point after seeing a museum exhibit on Chichen Itza I was twitting Phil about stealing the word "sakbe," and he shrugged and said "after this many years I no longer remember where most my ideas come from."

Yep. And they were some pretty adventure-filled years, at that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 16, 2017, 12:37:45 AM
Chirine,

I was wondering what you could tell us about the underworld beneath Fasiltum. Given its history of rebellion I'm sure its been burned and had parts of it razed several times over the centuries.  Did you ever make it to that city, or hear anything interesting that you could relay?


Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 16, 2017, 06:46:35 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;951843
Chirine,

I was wondering what you could tell us about the underworld beneath Fasiltum. Given its history of rebellion I'm sure its been burned and had parts of it razed several times over the centuries.  Did you ever make it to that city, or hear anything interesting that you could relay?

Shemek


We were there in late 2354 or so, when there was yet another minor rebellion after the one that led to Elara hi Vriddi getting arrested by the OAL. It was noted in one of the 'Imperial Dispatches', in the old 'Dragon".

The underworld is kinda of underwhelming, as Phil's underworlds go. The more 'modern' upper levels are sparse and full of Vriddi and Vimuhla people, who really don't like visitors. The 'Bednjallan' and 'Engsvanyali' levels are - again, for Phil - pretty ho-hum and not much of a challenge; they have been, as you surmise, been looted to a fine point, and are pretty empty. However...

The sting in the tail of the scorpion is the lowest level, which is Dragon Lords, and is the only known example aside from the one under Malchairan. It's chock full of very ancient and very sacred shrines to Lord Vimuhla, which means that there are also Nexus points to the past - you can also get to Kashi, from there - and some pretty well-stocked arsenals. At least several working aircars, and a tubeway station as well - one of the big ones that handle the troop carriers, not just the usual cars. Not a lot of the usual Underworld creatures - nothing from Sarku or Ksarul, for example - but really devoted locals who take their job of guarding these places very seriously. We had a lot of very hard fighting just to survive, and we were mostly Vimuhla people. I thought that it was more of a challenge then Jakalla, as the 'live garrison' was a lot more active then your usual Undead lot.

As for the city itself, may I suggest Jaisalmer?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaisalmer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaisalmer)

I think that Phil did a map of the city, but I'll have to look it up. Does any of this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 16, 2017, 07:58:44 PM
Thanks Chirine, this helps a lot! Lots of fodder for mayhem to ensue.:D
Jakalla seems to be the "big underworld" in Tsolyanu, but is there one located elsewhere that rivals, or even surpasses, the one under Jakalla?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 16, 2017, 08:55:03 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;952011
Thanks Chirine, this helps a lot! Lots of fodder for mayhem to ensue.:D
Jakalla seems to be the "big underworld" in Tsolyanu, but is there one located elsewhere that rivals, or even surpasses, the one under Jakalla?

Shemek.

Bey Su, supposedly; we didn't see much of any of it. Purdimal - see also MoG; Avanthar - tiny, but very, very choice; Malchairan, original home of the Petal Throne itself. Those are my choices, based on personal observation, and I freely admit to being biased... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 17, 2017, 12:36:03 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;952027
Bey Su, supposedly; we didn't see much of any of it. Purdimal - see also MoG; Avanthar - tiny, but very, very choice; Malchairan, original home of the Petal Throne itself. Those are my choices, based on personal observation, and I freely admit to being biased... :)

Excellent! Thanks again.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 17, 2017, 12:38:01 AM
[ATTACH=CONFIG]773[/ATTACH]
The Blue Fish of Khirgar.

Found this on line and thought I would share it.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 17, 2017, 05:10:00 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;952071
[ATTACH=CONFIG]773[/ATTACH]
The Blue Fish of Khirgar.

Found this on line and thought I would share it.

Shemek

Yep - that's the tile inlay over The Gate Of The Blue Fish at Khirgar; the little and mostly unknown Shrine Of The Blue Fish is up the street after you go into the city, turn left into a small alley, and look for a blue door on the right-hand side.

Amazing how some in-jokes just keep on going and going, decades later... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on March 18, 2017, 06:34:37 AM
Hi Chirine,
Hi everybody.

Chirine, a little while back, you mentioned, on your Workbench blog, an airship which you saw (got on? used?) during your adventures.
Would you be able to share with us more information about it? The circumstances surrounding the encounter? Where was the ship's owner going with it? Which of the Undying Wizards was the owner?

Many thanks.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 18, 2017, 07:54:06 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;952392
Hi Chirine,
Hi everybody.

Chirine, a little while back, you mentioned, on your Workbench blog, an airship which you saw (got on? used?) during your adventures.
Would you be able to share with us more information about it? The circumstances surrounding the encounter? Where was the ship's owner going with it? Which of the Undying Wizards was the owner?

Many thanks.

This sort of thing was a feature of Phil's games from the beginning; we used to see mysterious airships at night in the skies over the Milumaniyani deserts, and this got mentioned in the NW Frontier booklet. You'd be minding your own business, and you'd see moving lights in the sky off in the distance. So, one night we're siitting around the campfire and this metallic sphere floats up, a hatch on the top opens, and Turshanmu the Wizard pops his head out to ask the way to Khirgar. We wound up getting a lift from him, and further adventures ensued over the years. Getting shot at - and missed - by the giant lightning bringers as we flew past Avanthar was possibly the worst time we took a trip with him. His little intra-system ship is a nice comfortable sphere; light and fast, and seats a party nicely. I now have a model of this, too.

There's also one of the Undying Wizards who flies around in the 'winged' ship like the Bajoran Lightsailer that I got; I can never remember her name, but she and her ship is in either "Prince of Skulls" of "Death of Kings". About the only Wizards who we didn't see flitting around in this kind of thing were Nyelmu, 'cause he's imprisoned in the Garden, and Thomar, who uses his network of towers to get around. Basically, if one of these busybodies happens to be passing by, and the party is of interest, they may stop and offer the party a lift to somewhere in return for 'a favor'. (Like assaulting the palace of Bassa, for example.) Mayhem normally ensues, as one might expect.

While the Undying Wizards are often helpful and informative, they are a pretty secretive lot who just happen to forget to mention what they are doing at the moment. They like to send PCs off on quests and errands, and a lot of very fun adventures came about because of them. We mere mortals usually have no idea what they're doing, or why, but it does beat walking...

Does this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: TheShadow on March 18, 2017, 08:21:27 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;952398
So, one night we're siitting around the campfire and this metallic sphere floats up, a hatch on the top opens, and Turshanmu the Wizard pops his head out to ask the way to Khirgar.

Did Phil play this kind of thing with humor, verging on comedy, as you seem to imply? Or was the in-game tone fairly straight with the jokes done out of character?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 18, 2017, 10:11:29 AM
Quote from: The_Shadow;952400
Did Phil play this kind of thing with humor, verging on comedy, as you seem to imply? Or was the in-game tone fairly straight with the jokes done out of character?

Yes, and yes; it depended on the situation and the people involved. Turshanmu, for example, was privately surnamed "The Putz", because while he is one of the more famous and skilled of the Undying Wizards, he's also famous for not really paying attention to the details and - in game terms - missing his dice rolls. He'd cast A Mighty And Powerful Spell, and then we'd hear his lament" "Oh, bother!" as the spell backfired somehow.

Phil, in general, did not 'tell jokes'; he wasn't that kind of person. He loved to set up situations where there would be a comic payoff, and a funny punch line. Like the time Lord Chirine was sick in bed, and the doctor filled out an order for medication. It was returned: "Colleague, this is perfectly legible." "Oh! Sorry! Let me fix it!" And then while we were laughing over the joke about doctors' handwriting, the NPC making notes came up with: "So, then, you want him to have two handmaidens and call you in the morning?" And so on...

Phil's Tekumel had a lot of humor to it, and he played that for all it was worth. Sure, there were times when he scared the crap out of us, but in general his was a bright, sunny world where "Action! Adventure! Romance!" held sway. His humor, as we've mentioned, very dry; a lot like Howard's Anderson's, Vance's, or Dickson's. If the situation called for comic relief, we got it; if it called for very serious play, we got that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 18, 2017, 11:19:35 AM
chirine: You say the you start people off with a position in society in your games. Do the players get a booklet of the contacts they know with why and for what?
How do you start them with the integration needed to function in a very social game?

Can you give examples?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on March 19, 2017, 06:54:29 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;952398
Does this help?
It sure helps a lot, yes. Thank you. But, of course, now I  have more questions!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;952398
This sort of thing was a feature of Phil's games from the beginning; we used to see mysterious airships at night in the skies over the Milumaniyani deserts, and this got mentioned in the NW Frontier booklet.
The above sentence suggests that there may be other air-ships, ones not manned by any of the wizards. Would that be a fair reading?

Also, "this got mentioned in the NW Frontier booklet": by Jove, we need a centralized encyclopedia or guide for all this information! It's all so spread out over so many books over so many years.
Yes, one can always dream.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;952398
and Turshanmu the Wizard pops his head out to ask the way to Khirgar
Love the humour here.

Question: would Chirine and his companions immediately recognize the strange man at the helm of that magical flying chariot as one of the Undying Wizards, or would they gradually come to that realization, either by asking "the man" directly, or by suddenly remembering an old tale about such wizard or other? Would their mind be blown by that, or would they accept it as something that happens from time to time, 'cause you're on Tekumel and in Tsolyanu and this how stuff rolls sometimes.

And just to be clear, these Undying Wizards are closer to being gods than to being human beings, are they not? They were humans in the past, though, correct? How far into the past? When Tekumel was still part of the Humanspace? I guess it depends on the Wizard.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;952398
by the giant lightning bringers as we flew past Avanthar
What would the people of Avanthar chat about the following day? Of some weird "UFO" in the skies of the city? Of an attack by the Red Hats or the Baron's armies? All of the above?

As a follow up to my question on the PCs' realizing that they are chatting with one of the legendary "wizard" figures, this suggests to me that Tsolyanis  and other people are overall quite used to witnessing super weird and freaky occurrences, like a weird object flying through the skies, or like a nexus point suddenly popping at the top of a temple, or like a strange creature suddenly appearing and vanishing in the middle of a market. Would that be correct?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;952398
in return for 'a favor'. (Like assaulting the palace of Bassa, for example.)
You've mentioned this event here in the past, but I love the idea of having a group of adventurers going about their often dangerous albeit pretty mundane adventures (as mundane as they can be on Tekumel), and suddenly being asked to "oh, could you attack Bassa's fortress for me?" My response would be, "Huh, what? Are you insane?!"
Shows you how utterly detached from reality these wizards are.
So, actually, how did the wizard convince you that you could even do it?!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2017, 12:11:23 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;952420
chirine: You say the you start people off with a position in society in your games. Do the players get a booklet of the contacts they know with why and for what?
How do you start them with the integration needed to function in a very social game?

Can you give examples?
=

No, they don't get a booklet or anything. While I could do a personalized summary of all their relations and contacts, I prefer to do the 'country cousins' gambit, where the PCs come in and stay at their clan-house. From there, we role-play how the locals take the new people around to meet everybody in the clan and then in the outside world; the PCs all get introduced to their relations and contacts in a social setting, like at parties at the clan house or temple or in 'work-' or 'life-related' settings. (I do provide note-pads for the players, and folders for the PC sheets and notes; these are color-coded by religion, the same as were Phil's index cards, and like with Phil and our games with him the players are responsible for their own lives.) And, or course, the world continues running right along, so there are normally all sorts of opportunities for adventures on offer.

An example. Well, what I like to do is a pre-game discussion with the player to see what they are interested in playing. I do not use the random tables given in S&G for rolling up a player's clan, temple, and family; I know people who do this kind of thing, and the PCs usually get abandoned after a few sessions. Once a player indicates what they want to do, we come up with a PC and a little bit of their personality, and then get on with the game session.

So, had a friend of the first two of my daughters who wanted to play; had the conversation with her to introduce her to Tekumel, and she liked Dilinala. had her roll a couple of d100 to get an idea of lineage and such, and we came up with her 'backstory' of being an administrative priestess of the Temple who worked as a temple courier who was from Hauma and who was being transferred to Jakalla for outstanding performance in her duties. So, she duly arrived, reported for duty after settling in at her clan house, and off she went on her round of introductions and greetings. It all worked pretty well; the player has moved on to go to college, but the PC is still there, doing her job and getting occasional promotions.

Does any of this help?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2017, 12:25:10 PM
From Neshm hiKumala: It sure helps a lot, yes. Thank you. But, of course, now I  have more questions!

The above sentence suggests that there may be other air-ships, ones not manned by any of the wizards. Would that be a fair reading?

Yes. There are pockets of working ancient technology in remote areas, and not all of them are beinr used by Wizards - or humans, for that matter!

Also, "this got mentioned in the NW Frontier booklet": by Jove, we need a centralized encyclopedia or guide for all this information! It's all so spread out over so many books over so many years.
Yes, one can always dream.


I'm sorry. I so used to having all this information right to hand. The thing you mention has been proposed t the Foundation by at least two people that I know of- I'm always being asled to be a consultant on projects like this - but as I understand it neither has gone anywhere.


Love the humour here.

Question: would Chirine and his companions immediately recognize the strange man at the helm of that magical flying chariot as one of the Undying Wizards, or would they gradually come to that realization, either by asking "the man" directly, or by suddenly remembering an old tale about such wizard or other? Would their mind be blown by that, or would they accept it as something that happens from time to time, 'cause you're on Tekumel and in Tsolyanu and this how stuff rolls sometimes.


As 'adventurers', this kind of thing is our usual business, so we'd accept it and get on with the job. When stuff like this shows up, one assumes that powerful beings are involved, and one treads carefully. So, yes, to all of the above. Phil assumed that we'd think fast, and think on our feet.

And just to be clear, these Undying Wizards are closer to being gods than to being human beings, are they not? They were humans in the past, though, correct? How far into the past? When Tekumel was still part of the Humanspace? I guess it depends on the Wizard.

Not really; they are mostly humans, with a few non-humans rumored to be out there. The 'undying' part comes from their - as Phil put it - 'getting lucky in the genetic sweepstakes' and not being subject to the aging process. They are not immortal and can be killed, but because they've been around so long they really are very powerful and very skilled at staying alive. So, not gods, but on speaking terms with them.

What would the people of Avanthar chat about the following day? Of some weird "UFO" in the skies of the city? Of an attack by the Red Hats or the Baron's armies? All of the above?

Yes, as well as rolling their eyes and simply ignoring the whole incident. Remember that the gods are very real, and so stuff like this gets ascribed to them or other powerful beings beyond the ken of mere mortals.

As a follow up to my question on the PCs' realizing that they are chatting with one of the legendary "wizard" figures, this suggests to me that Tsolyanis  and other people are overall quite used to witnessing super weird and freaky occurrences, like a weird object flying through the skies, or like a nexus point suddenly popping at the top of a temple, or like a strange creature suddenly appearing and vanishing in the middle of a market. Would that be correct?

We educated people are used to it, but that's because we deal with it all the time. Everybody else either ignores it, calls is a divine manifestation, or panics. Seen all of the above, in the same incident.

You've mentioned this event here in the past, but I love the idea of having a group of adventurers going about their often dangerous albeit pretty mundane adventures (as mundane as they can be on Tekumel), and suddenly being asked to "oh, could you attack Bassa's fortress for me?" My response would be, "Huh, what? Are you insane?!"
Shows you how utterly detached from reality these wizards are.
So, actually, how did the wizard convince you that you could even do it?!


Well, we'd had a year of my carrying Elyoa The Blue Fish around in a bucket of water, and with him trying to cast spells with his long flowing fins. It was getting really old, and we wanted to go home. So, the deal was that Thomar would restore Eyloa to human form, and we'd do 'this little errand for him'...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 19, 2017, 06:11:07 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;952600
No, they don't get a booklet or anything.
...
Does any of this help?

Yes, it indicates the GM has a LOT of "up front work" that has to be done.
The GM has the info and the players have to "play it out of them".
Can't very well play "off the cuff".

Wish there was more detailed information of the organizations.
Some "A Day in the Life of a ___" would be worth it's weight in gold.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 19, 2017, 06:37:51 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;952694
Yes, it indicates the GM has a LOT of "up front work" that has to be done.
The GM has the info and the players have to "play it out of them".
Can't very well play "off the cuff".

Wish there was more detailed information of the organizations.
Some "A Day in the Life of a ___" would be worth it's weight in gold.
=

Um, yeah, I'd agree with this - in the same spirit that Dave and Gary (and Phil, of course) had the mantra of "Know your world setting!" I have been told by quite a few players that I run Tekumel pretty much 'off the cuff', but I think that's because I've had about forty years of studying and playing in the place to fall back on. GMs back in my salad days were sort of assumed to have done a lot of thinking about how their world-setting worked 'on the ground', and I still work this way. Having a good memory, as Gronan has observed, also seems to help.

I geniunely don't know how I do it. Maybe Gronan can give some insights on this?

Agreed about wishing that more of Phil's stuff was available. he did an immense number of short little articles on all sorts of organizations and subjects, and I'm genuinely surprised that these are either unknown or unavailable; it'd take very little effort of make this material available on-line, and would go a long way to explaining how Phil 'did Tekumel' in his own games. I thought that a lot of these used to be on-line at DriveThru RPG, but they may have been taken down as part of the 'proper interpretation' policy that seems to be in force.

"To Serve The Petal Throne" has a lot of 'day in the life' stuff, and people seem to like having it set into the context of both our lives and adventures. I'm hoping that people will find it useful, that way.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 19, 2017, 08:12:38 PM
Werl, I think "pay attention and think about it" has a lot to do with it.

And "What makes this setting unique?"  In the case of Tekumel, it's the fairly rigid societal structures (as opposed to feudal Europe.)

That, plus if you read enough books and see enough movies, you get a really good "gut feel" of what makes "an adventure."  Basically, who wants something, and who else doesn't want them to have it?  There's your adventure.

And how does one describe "play off the cuff?"  I could run a whole D&D adventure off the cuff, or for that matter, I could run a Star Wars adventure off the cuff.  Every time I've watched any of the eight Star Wars movies counts as "preparation for the game," and every book I've read on either medieval history or pseudomedieval fantasy counts as preparation for a D&D adventure.

And once you know the names of the Five Empires and have generated half a dozen Tekumelyani names, and once you get some feel for the difference between modern "individual first" thinking and pre-Enlightenment "your role in society is more important than you as an individual are," go watch some old Ray Harryhausen movies and run an adventure.  Because people are people, on some level.  After all, Greek myths and legends are still fun reading.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 19, 2017, 09:00:41 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;952732
I could run a whole D&D adventure off the cuff, or for that matter, I could run a Star Wars adventure off the cuff.  Every time I've watched any of the eight Star Wars movies counts as "preparation for the game," and every book I've read on either medieval history or pseudomedieval fantasy counts as preparation for a D&D adventure.

There is a noticeable shortage of Tekumel movies and the few books are hard to get copies of so, forgive me if I don't have an abundance of "authentic" details.
This leads back to the "in depth study of the setting" before any gaming can happen.
While the payoff may be great, the same effort in pseudomedieval fantasy goes a long way and the ease of finding players make it seem a better investment.

chirine's book will be an oasis in the desert of details.  (I expect)  May make things easier.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 19, 2017, 10:41:26 PM
Remember, a picture is worth a thousand words.  Half a dozen pictures will give your players an idea of what they think Tekumel looks like.  After that, an adventure is an adventure.

"It's called a Shen.  This is what it looks like."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 20, 2017, 01:41:44 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;952762
Remember, a picture is worth a thousand words.  Half a dozen pictures will give your players an idea of what they think Tekumel looks like.  After that, an adventure is an adventure.

"It's called a Shen.  This is what it looks like."


This exactly.  
This is why I always keep my tablet handy so I can show my group what their characters have seen. It has worked like a charm over the years.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 20, 2017, 04:07:23 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;952732
Werl, I think "pay attention and think about it" has a lot to do with it.

And "What makes this setting unique?"  In the case of Tekumel, it's the fairly rigid societal structures (as opposed to feudal Europe.)

That, plus if you read enough books and see enough movies, you get a really good "gut feel" of what makes "an adventure."  Basically, who wants something, and who else doesn't want them to have it?  There's your adventure.

And how does one describe "play off the cuff?"  I could run a whole D&D adventure off the cuff, or for that matter, I could run a Star Wars adventure off the cuff.  Every time I've watched any of the eight Star Wars movies counts as "preparation for the game," and every book I've read on either medieval history or pseudomedieval fantasy counts as preparation for a D&D adventure.

And once you know the names of the Five Empires and have generated half a dozen Tekumelyani names, and once you get some feel for the difference between modern "individual first" thinking and pre-Enlightenment "your role in society is more important than you as an individual are," go watch some old Ray Harryhausen movies and run an adventure.  Because people are people, on some level.  After all, Greek myths and legends are still fun reading.

The Glorious General has my total support in this matter, that's exactly how I've always been doing my "totally improvised" sessions!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 20, 2017, 06:47:13 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;952732
And "What makes this setting unique?"  In the case of Tekumel, it's the fairly rigid societal structures (as opposed to feudal Europe.)

fairly rigid societal structures is what I was talking about there not being the detail you would expect, if it was The Aspect of note.
It is also one of the things that turns off a bunch of Americans.
I believe a close analogy is the military.
Notice how many military based RPGs there are that are popular and how many games hold to a strict Chain of Command?
While such things work well enough for wargames, the desire to play as a character in the structure is lacking, from my experience.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on March 20, 2017, 07:30:00 AM
Greentongue, Unfortunately when you are told from birth that you can achieve greatness and you just have to apply yourself (unless you are black, gay or otherwise not white male) then playing something that is the very antithesis of US white male society is not going to go down well. Similarly for other games that came out of the California of the 70's like Runequest. It too has a bigger following in Europe (per head of population) than it does in the US just like EPT (and it's variants).

When you are using your RPG to examine alternative social experiences you can't hope to have everyone fit right in. There are any number of social experiments that fail because the participants don't have an amenable mindset.

This is why D&D with it's murderhobo game style appeals to a US culture that seems (to some) to be fixated on guns and violence. Look how the US treats any expression of differing sexual mores. Repression of the creative side of humanity by some of the appalling attempts to turn the US back to a medieval culture with lack of decent healthcare (how may RPG authors are having to use FundMe campaigns to raise funds for life saving health care). Take a look at how female reproductive health is being undermined by removing funding from clinics catering to that aspect . Look how funding for arts and culture (already much lower than many countries) is being removed to support a xenophobic wall. You might wonder why people who enjoy RPG's are turned off by some games - it's drilled in to them from an early age that being white and male is your ticket to nirvana. Then take a look at how many deaths there are from nut jobs going on the rampage compared to muslim terror attacks. With one real exception (9/11) there are more Americans killed by other Americans than foreigners of any religion.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: nDervish on March 20, 2017, 07:57:35 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;952600
these are color-coded by religion, the same as were Phil's index cards

Quote from: chirine ba kal;952604
not gods, but on speaking terms with them.


It seems evident that religion and temples are nigh-omnipresent parts of daily life in Tekumel, but what about the actual gods?  Are they distant entities, known only by the magic they provide and perhaps an occasional revelation to a high priest?  Do they take on human form purely for the sake of hanging out on street corners and chatting with whoever might wander past?  I assume it's somewhere in between, but where, on that broad spectrum, does it tend to land?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 20, 2017, 01:30:06 PM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;952824
Greentongue, Unfortunately when you are told from birth that you can achieve greatness and you just have to apply yourself (unless you are black, gay or otherwise not white male) then playing something that is the very antithesis of US white male society is not going to go down well.

While I don't disagree, I don't want to start a conversation of that in this thread. Politics gets "messy" fast these days.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 20, 2017, 02:33:26 PM
The society and its aspects are what makes Tekumel, Tekumel.  Not everyone will like it.

This is a feature, not a bug.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2017, 07:12:55 PM
Quote from: nDervish;952827
It seems evident that religion and temples are nigh-omnipresent parts of daily life in Tekumel, but what about the actual gods?  Are they distant entities, known only by the magic they provide and perhaps an occasional revelation to a high priest?  Do they take on human form purely for the sake of hanging out on street corners and chatting with whoever might wander past?  I assume it's somewhere in between, but where, on that broad spectrum, does it tend to land?

In my experience, over on the high priest side. They don't really provide any magic; as I've mentioned, they are not what we would consider 'divine beings' but are greatly more advanced beings then we are. I never saw any of them take on human form and chat with the passerby; they seemed to have no interest in such things.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2017, 07:19:40 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;952745
There is a noticeable shortage of Tekumel movies and the few books are hard to get copies of so, forgive me if I don't have an abundance of "authentic" details.
This leads back to the "in depth study of the setting" before any gaming can happen.
While the payoff may be great, the same effort in pseudomedieval fantasy goes a long way and the ease of finding players make it seem a better investment.

chirine's book will be an oasis in the desert of details.  (I expect)  May make things easier.
=


May I respectfully differ about useful movies? I've touched on this a while back, with films that Phil enjoyed and suggested as a pathway into his creation:

"Thief of Baghdad", "Sign of the Cross", "Thief of Baghdad", any number of sword and sandal epics, "Ben Hur", amongst others. The recent "John Carter" is also good.  I think that what Gronan was suggesting were 'adventure' movies, and not literal ones.

Barsoom has the same investment and payoff ratios as well, in my opinion, as would the Lord Meren series.

As for my book, I don't know; ask the folks on this thread who haver asked to look at it, and managed to read through it. I'm just too close to it, I'm afraid. Sorry.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 20, 2017, 07:24:56 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;952897
The society and its aspects are what makes Tekumel, Tekumel.  Not everyone will like it.

This is a feature, not a bug.

My perception is that the issue currently in play is that Phil assumed that players and GMs would be able to do social interactions between themselves and NPCs without having to legislate them via the rules. What you and I did, back in the day, and what I was doing in the TFT campaign Saturday, seems to now require formal rules for doing so, in order to enable people to simulate / replicate our gaming experiences. I don't know if that's even possible, or how I can communicate that kind of game-play to people.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 20, 2017, 07:43:13 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;952886
While I don't disagree, I don't want to start a conversation of that in this thread. Politics gets "messy" fast these days.
=


Thanks Greentongue, I second this.
Too many threads have become derailed on this forum by going off topic and turning into an abortion. Leave the real world issues in the real world, AFAIC.  

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: GameDaddy on March 20, 2017, 09:14:17 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;952886
While I don't disagree, I don't want to start a conversation of that in this thread. Politics gets "messy" fast these days.
=

That's what Tékumel is all about... sorting out those political messes, lol.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 21, 2017, 07:11:06 AM
Quote from: GameDaddy;952986
That's what Tékumel is all about... sorting out those political messes, lol.

From what I can tell, above ground, the "messes" are sorted out with tact and civility.
Below ground, and in our "Real World" far less civility is used.

I guess that is part of the "problem" we need to do social interactions via rules in Tekumel as maybe we have mostly forgotten/discarded now in "Real Life".
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 21, 2017, 12:04:31 PM
Play half a dozen games of Diplomacy.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 21, 2017, 05:33:22 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;953035
From what I can tell, above ground, the "messes" are sorted out with tact and civility.
Below ground, and in our "Real World" far less civility is used.

I guess that is part of the "problem" we need to do social interactions via rules in Tekumel as maybe we have mostly forgotten/discarded now in "Real Life".
=


Good point. I can think of a number of instances where simple civility and politeness would have avoided a nasty situation - both in-game and in real life.

(It's like the kinda surprised and shocked reaction I got when I asked the proprietors of this forum if I could add a link to my 'Chirine' cards. Okay. I guess I'm just too old-fashioned or something.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: GameDaddy on March 21, 2017, 07:19:01 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;953035
From what I can tell, above ground, the "messes" are sorted out with tact and civility.
Below ground, and in our "Real World" far less civility is used.

I guess that is part of the "problem" we need to do social interactions via rules in Tekumel as maybe we have mostly forgotten/discarded now in "Real Life".
=

Exactly what makes Tékumel so awesome! Also it is much more fun to skillfully disgrace or discredit your Tsolyánu foe/clan than actually harm him/her/them. If we abided by the social tenets used in Tékumel this would be a much more civilized country than it presently is.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 22, 2017, 07:02:27 AM
Quote from: GameDaddy;953165
Exactly what makes Tékumel so awesome! Also it is much more fun to skillfully disgrace or discredit your Tsolyánu foe/clan than actually harm him/her/them. If we abided by the social tenets used in Tékumel this would be a much more civilized country than it presently is.

This is where I circle back to my previous point. While this is said to to important, the rules don't give a framework or structure for doing it.
I understand that like in OD&D, the GM provided this and not the written rules. For it to work, everyone has to have a common assumed context.
There is no requirement for it based on the original published rules.
It could just as easily be a planet in the "Flash Gordon" universe.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 22, 2017, 05:39:49 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;953216
This is where I circle back to my previous point. While this is said to to important, the rules don't give a framework or structure for doing it.
I understand that like in OD&D, the GM provided this and not the written rules. For it to work, everyone has to have a common assumed context.
There is no requirement for it based on the original published rules.
It could just as easily be a planet in the "Flash Gordon" universe.
=

Point understood. I think what we're looking at is the way some people back in the very early days of RPGs assumed how the games would be played. Arneson's Blackmoor games had this same issue; I don't know if Gary's Greyhawk games did at that time, so this may be an artifact of what's been called 'the Twin Cities' play style. Given that the original D&D has some of the same issues with not codifying social interactions, it could be said that both games assumed that the GM and players would have this shared assumptions; as you mention, and has been documented in "Playing at the World" (amongst others), that what we're looking at is a larger group of people here in the upper Midwest in the mid-1970s who all had many of the same contextual assumptions stemming from their board gaming, miniatures gaming, and PbM gaming.

And yes, Tekumel could very well be a planet in the 'Flash Gordon' universe, just as Barsoom and Arisia are worlds in the Tekumel universe that Phil took us to.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 23, 2017, 06:57:11 PM
Which have you found to be the better choice?
Leaving an ancient item alone or trying to use it where you are?
What about if you have nothing with you that you know can overcome an opponent you are confronted by?
Is it worth taking a risk on the unknown powers of a found item?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 23, 2017, 07:27:11 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;953408
Which have you found to be the better choice?
Leaving an ancient item alone or trying to use it where you are?
What about if you have nothing with you that you know can overcome an opponent you are confronted by?
Is it worth taking a risk on the unknown powers of a found item?
=

Well, normally we'd take the item with us, and test it out in the open where it would - hopefully! - do as little harm as possible to the surroundings. If, on the other hand, we were faced with a nasty situation like what you describe, we'd try the thing - nothing ventured, nothing gained, as Gronan would say - especially as we had nothing to lose. So, in that kind of situation, yes; sometimes taking a risk meant we'd survive the latest Dire Peril.

And then you get maniac button-pushers like Harchar and Origo (Turshanmu's nephew, for goodness' sake - you'd have thought he'd known better!), who'd just have to try the thing out right now. Which Phil was always hoping for, as mayhem would ensue.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 24, 2017, 06:57:51 AM
So you never felt that things were "rigged to go wrong"?
In your experience, did found items generally do things that were harmful to the person activating them or just things that were unexpected?
Any good examples?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 24, 2017, 01:01:47 PM
Chirine,

Some questions on geography.
What is the name of the river that Thraya and Sokatis are located on?
Is the Forest of Gilraya, specifically Kerunan (near Sokatis) a wild and "unknown area," or have people settled in there, in large numbers, and started to log, build, etc?  

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 24, 2017, 05:57:32 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;953453
So you never felt that things were "rigged to go wrong"?
In your experience, did found items generally do things that were harmful to the person activating them or just things that were unexpected?
Any good examples?
=

No. The devices did what the devices did; Phil was, as Gronan has remarked about our play style, quite honest about things like this. He had a clear idea of what the thing was supposed to do, and it was up to us to figure out how it worked. Things were rarely harmful, unless one was stupid, but the vast majority of ancient devices did very unexpected things - to us, anyway, as we usually had no idea what they were supposed to be in the first place. Phil got a lot of laughs out of watching us try to figure out what an ordinary household device from the 1930s 'Art Deco Streamline Moderne' era did. (The Minneapolis Art Institute has a lot of these things on display, by the way, and photos are on-line.)

Two come instantly to mind; the clothing steamer and the set of grease cups that you separate by pulling a ring on the spherical package. Hilarity ensued, but the Ssu Gronan used these on were simply annoyed.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 24, 2017, 06:01:37 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;953486
Chirine,

Some questions on geography.
What is the name of the river that Thraya and Sokatis are located on?
Is the Forest of Gilraya, specifically Kerunan (near Sokatis) a wild and "unknown area," or have people settled in there, in large numbers, and started to log, build, etc?  

Shemek.

If the name is not on the map, I think it's in the taped interview Phil did on the city. I'll have a listen - it's about three hours long - and get back to you.

Yes, but not on a permanent basis. This is a very hotly disputed frontier zone, and both the Tsolyani and Salarvyani want to control the area. The locals, on both sides of the border, tend to have their own opinions about the benefits of central government and tend to do what they please - but in such a way so they don't get caught.

For an example of how this works, may I suggest George MacDonald Frasier's "The Steel Bonnets"?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Baron on March 24, 2017, 06:02:55 PM
Mustn't steam the wrinkles out of a ssu, no... ;-)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 24, 2017, 06:07:14 PM
Quote from: Baron;953526
Mustn't steam the wrinkles out of a ssu, no... ;-)

Precisely. The net result was a very well-pressed, very damp, and very annoyed Grey Ssu. Phil was laughing about it for years.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on March 24, 2017, 08:55:18 PM
Greetings Uncle,

Two quick questions, how xenophobic are the Tsolyani? I inderstand foreigners are able to make their way into Tsolyani society(The Glorious General being a good example). How do the natives feel about this? Do they have a Roman like view about becoming a citizen?

Also how much of a direct interest would the Emperor take in the goings on in the far away places of the Empire(let's say as long as the revenue always coming in)?

Thank you,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 24, 2017, 10:33:53 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;953525
If the name is not on the map, I think it's in the taped interview Phil did on the city. I'll have a listen - it's about three hours long - and get back to you.

Yes, but not on a permanent basis. This is a very hotly disputed frontier zone, and both the Tsolyani and Salarvyani want to control the area. The locals, on both sides of the border, tend to have their own opinions about the benefits of central government and tend to do what they please - but in such a way so they don't get caught.

For an example of how this works, may I suggest George MacDonald Frasier's "The Steel Bonnets"?


Great stuff Chirine. For some reason only the Missuma is labeled on the maps. I know that the river where Hekelu is located is the Kanayugara (Phil talks about it in the Blue Room), but all of the rest are absent on my maps.

This sounds like a traditional "d&d type setting," and probably a good alternative to the off the boat approach to gaming on Tekumel. These types of areas tend to be less concerned with societal niceties and formalities, and such. A good place to learn the ropes before going into wider "civilized" society.

I'll have to look this book up. Thanks for the recommendation.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 25, 2017, 06:34:57 AM
Quote from: Hrugga;953544
Greetings Uncle,

Two quick questions, how xenophobic are the Tsolyani? I inderstand foreigners are able to make their way into Tsolyani society(The Glorious General being a good example). How do the natives feel about this? Do they have a Roman like view about becoming a citizen?

Also how much of a direct interest would the Emperor take in the goings on in the far away places of the Empire(let's say as long as the revenue always coming in)?

Thank you,

H:0)

They don't exactly love anybody from 'anywhere else', and tend to shun them socially, but once you have an 'in' with somebody local you are a lot more acceptable. I found the same attitude in the UK, where my friends in Wiltshire were viewed with deep misgivings by the people just up the road in Gloucestershire. And both viewed the strangers in Yorkshire with the same deep misgivings - in fairness, the residents of the four 'ridings' of Yorkshire regard each other the same way. I'd always introduce myself to anyone I met with a casual reference to my local friends or to steam railways, thus making myself a part of the local culture, and things would be fine.

Tsolyanu is the same way; 'not from here' is the way people get looked at, unless and until one develops local connections and puts down some roots. In short, it's a lot like gaming groups on a forum, in a shop, or at a convention.

Not a lot, unless somebody was complaining. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and the Imperium tends to keep a hands off policy unless there's trouble afoot. At which point, they send in the player-characters, and mayhem ensues.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 25, 2017, 06:40:32 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;953558
Great stuff Chirine. For some reason only the Missuma is labeled on the maps. I know that the river where Hekelu is located is the Kanayugara (Phil talks about it in the Blue Room), but all of the rest are absent on my maps.

This sounds like a traditional "d&d type setting," and probably a good alternative to the off the boat approach to gaming on Tekumel. These types of areas tend to be less concerned with societal niceties and formalities, and such. A good place to learn the ropes before going into wider "civilized" society.

I'll have to look this book up. Thanks for the recommendation.

Shemek.

Yep. He didn't always note stuff down.

Yep; frontiers are always a great place to have adventures. Enjoy the book. You'll like Robert Carey, and Henry, Lord Hunsdon. The rest of the motley crew up there on The Borders just cries out for use in a campaign.

"Every precaution was taken to ensure a peaceful meeting, and during it Johnstone shot Maxwell twice in the back." Mayhem ensued, as it usually did in those parts.

Made it very interesting when Borderers met Afghans on the NW Frontier. More mayhem ensued, as one might expect.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on March 25, 2017, 11:05:11 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;953486
Chirine,

Some questions on geography.
What is the name of the river that Thraya and Sokatis are located on?
Is the Forest of Gilraya, specifically Kerunan (near Sokatis) a wild and "unknown area," or have people settled in there, in large numbers, and started to log, build, etc?  

Shemek.


As I recall, that river is the Rananga
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 25, 2017, 03:08:58 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;953608
As I recall, that river is the Rananga

Just back in from getting groceries, so I haven't listened to the tapes yet, but I think you're right. I seem to recall it being that, as well.

Thank you! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on March 25, 2017, 08:16:18 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;953608
As I recall, that river is the Rananga


Excellent! Thank you.

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 27, 2017, 06:09:18 PM
As deadly as Tekumel can be, how often have you had your group of players killed off?

How often was going down against overwhelming odds and how many were just some failed saving throws?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 28, 2017, 06:28:04 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;953893
As deadly as Tekumel can be, how often have you had your group of players killed off?

How often was going down against overwhelming odds and how many were just some failed saving throws?
=

In Phil's campaign, over the decade+ that we played with him, never; I think we had one or two casualties - dead, with a lot of wounded along the way - but we as a group played a very careful and very cooperative game. We looked after each other - as you say, Tekumel is very deadly.

In my various campaigns, once, due to a really stupid move by one of the very experienced players; he got a little too arrogant and self-assured, and screwed up very badly. The rest of the party started making bad saving throws against what he'd unleashed, and they all wound up dead. The one surviving NPC got them all carted back to Butrus.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 28, 2017, 08:18:24 AM
So, as far as you know, no "fudging" of rolls occurred. You, and your players, lived or died by their skill or luck alone?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 28, 2017, 11:58:09 AM
I don't think they knew the concept of fudging;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 28, 2017, 12:12:57 PM
Hard to say, because Phil played by Free Kriegsspiel methods; we'd roll dice, he'd roll dice, and then he'd tell us what happened.

Now, as a military commander, yeah, I took losses.  But I tended to win, which helped mitigate losses.  But you cannot win a battle without experiencing losses.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 28, 2017, 05:13:13 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;953964
So, as far as you know, no "fudging" of rolls occurred. You, and your players, lived or died by their skill or luck alone?
=

No, nothing of the kind; we were honest players, and Phil was an honest GM / referee. 'Cheating at dice' is a concept we didn't have any time for, and we didn't play with known cheaters.

Yes, we did; it was all about being able to think on our feet, use our skills, and maybe roll some lucky dice.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 28, 2017, 05:14:34 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;953976
I don't think they knew the concept of fudging;).

We knew about it, we didn't believe in it, we didn't do it, and we were pretty offended by it. If I catch anyone doing it at my table these days, they're out and never allowed to come back. Ever.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 28, 2017, 05:17:52 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;953977
Hard to say, because Phil played by Free Kriegsspiel methods; we'd roll dice, he'd roll dice, and then he'd tell us what happened.

Now, as a military commander, yeah, I took losses.  But I tended to win, which helped mitigate losses.  But you cannot win a battle without experiencing losses.

Agreed; from what we could tell at the table, he was not one to cheat. As I have said, it was a cooperative venture, between players and GM; there has to be a certain degree of trust between them for this to work. See also Gronan's comments on my Gary Con game and intellectual honesty.

Yep. We took our losses, learned from our mistakes, and got to be pretty good at the business.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 29, 2017, 07:14:36 AM
With the chance a "magic-user" could be taken into custody by a temple or the government, how often was this a concern?
Did people that had psychic powers have to be discrete when using them, if they were not part of an organization already?  
If they were impressed into service, how restrictive did things become?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 29, 2017, 05:24:49 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;954119
With the chance a "magic-user" could be taken into custody by a temple or the government, how often was this a concern?
Did people that had psychic powers have to be discrete when using them, if they were not part of an organization already?  
If they were impressed into service, how restrictive did things become?
=

I'm not sure that I understand the question.

There are no 'magic users' in the Five Empires who are not part of a temple; such people get identified pretty early on and become members of a priesthood / temple. There are no 'freelancers' like you find in D&D and other RPGs. As for being taken into custody, anyone can be arrested; one simply has to make any charges stick, and usually they don't if you're clever.

There are no 'psychic powers' in the way that they seem to be defined in D&D and other RPGs, with the one known exception of the natural telepaths of the Nyemesel Islands and the Lost City of Bayarsha. There are also natural telepaths in the Five Empires, who are also of this ancient breeding effort by the Lords of Humanspace and later rulers - like the Hokun - and these are also identified and trained from an early age.

'Psychic' magic, in the way Phil defined it, is the use of other-planar power without the use of 'props'; 'ritual' magic uses gestures and props to use larger amounts of other-planar power.

(I think that a lot of this is a result of Gary's view that players of the day were not ready for a 'sword and planet' type of game, which is why he marketed EPT as a 'fantasy' game. I could be wrong, of course.)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on March 29, 2017, 05:48:36 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;954228
There are no 'freelancers' like you find in D&D and other RPGs.

Well... The original EPT rules implies that "Magic-users" are freelancers and that is one of the qualities that distinguish them from "Priests".

Quote from: chirine ba kal;954228
There are no 'psychic powers' in the way that they seem to be defined in D&D and other RPGs, ...

'Psychic' magic, in the way Phil defined it, is the use of other-planar power without the use of 'props'; 'ritual' magic uses gestures and props to use larger amounts of other-planar power.

I was under the impression that it was with the power of the mind that the other-planar energy was focused and formed into effects.
That rituals were for those that didn't have enough natural focus without them to cause a controlled effect.
The giving of more experience points for "Magic-users" with a high psychic ability, while a "Priest" got a bonus for high intelligence implied to me that the "Magic-user" was less dependent on learning rituals.
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 29, 2017, 05:57:25 PM
That may indeed be what the text said, but after about 1978 or so, possibly earlier, Phil simply ignored that, about the time he stopped starting players as barbarians from the southern continent.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 29, 2017, 07:51:21 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;954234
Well... The original EPT rules implies that "Magic-users" are freelancers and that is one of the qualities that distinguish them from "Priests".

I was under the impression that it was with the power of the mind that the other-planar energy was focused and formed into effects.
That rituals were for those that didn't have enough natural focus without them to cause a controlled effect.
The giving of more experience points for "Magic-users" with a high psychic ability, while a "Priest" got a bonus for high intelligence implied to me that the "Magic-user" was less dependent on learning rituals.
=

It's a matter of degree' 'Priests' are usually more connected to their temple organization; M-Us are have a looser attachment and tend to get used for odd jobs. We're starting to compare texts by Phil at different times; he addressed this issue in an article in The Tekumel Journal on the temples.

Phi didn't play it that way; see also his text in S&G II.

Once again, play it any way you want in your campaign; it's all about what works for you, more then anything else.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 29, 2017, 07:53:02 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;954236
That may indeed be what the text said, but after about 1978 or so, possibly earlier, Phil simply ignored that, about the time he stopped starting players as barbarians from the southern continent.

This. Phil didn't feel bound by his own rules, and we went along with that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on March 30, 2017, 12:55:08 AM
For movies, don't forget "King Richard and the Crusaders," based on "The Talisman" with Rex Harrison as Saladin.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on March 30, 2017, 02:06:10 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;954228
'Psychic' magic, in the way Phil defined it, is the use of other-planar power without the use of 'props'; 'ritual' magic uses gestures and props to use larger amounts of other-planar power.

(I think that a lot of this is a result of Gary's view that players of the day were not ready for a 'sword and planet' type of game, which is why he marketed EPT as a 'fantasy' game. I could be wrong, of course.)
I'm really not glad about his opinion:).

Then again, I'm not judging him. The letters from "Dragon" and what you guys told me of early convention goers being unable to understand the concept of "honourable priest of a cruel god" might have given me pause, too!
Fascinating times, they seem to have been, for both good and ill;).

Quote from: Greentongue;954234
Well... The original EPT rules implies that "Magic-users" are freelancers and that is one of the qualities that distinguish them from "Priests".

The giving of more experience points for "Magic-users" with a high psychic ability, while a "Priest" got a bonus for high intelligence implied to me that the "Magic-user" was less dependent on learning rituals.
=
Funny that you mention it, because my conclusion was "nobody is willing to teach him, so he must teach himself";).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;954259
Once again, play it any way you want in your campaign; it's all about what works for you, more then anything else.
And this simply canot be stressed enough:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on March 30, 2017, 05:30:05 PM
Just peeking in to say hi again.  Busy month.  But glad to see we're still getting more great tales!  Especially helping in ramping up my brain and excitement to (Hopefully, barring act of plague like my last scheduled session!  Where fully half the group was sick so we had to cancel) run my game again!  See how the PCs do from here...

And I do have a question:

It was said Phil took you to Barsoom at times.  Did you find yourself capable of John Carter-esque feats there?  Or was that slipped by the wayside and things played out normal?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on March 30, 2017, 06:21:05 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;954423
Just peeking in to say hi again.  Busy month.  But glad to see we're still getting more great tales!  Especially helping in ramping up my brain and excitement to (Hopefully, barring act of plague like my last scheduled session!  Where fully half the group was sick so we had to cancel) run my game again!  See how the PCs do from here...

And I do have a question:

It was said Phil took you to Barsoom at times.  Did you find yourself capable of John Carter-esque feats there?  Or was that slipped by the wayside and things played out normal?


So, we go through yet another portal, and the players start falling over and hopping around. (Me, I just sat down, as I am wont to do in these situations.) After a few moments of confusion, which were high comedy of the best sort, I smiled nicely and asked "So, what color is the sky, Phil?" Phil grimaced over my picking up too quickly, and confessed that the sky was a clear reddish hue. Not wanting to miss the opportunity, I than asked in my best innocent voice "Are the two moons up?" and the banth was well and truly out of the satchel.

Yes, Phil played it honestly; we were from a Terra-normal gravity world, so we had Terra-normal muscles. Which came in darn handy, as our sorcery didn't work for beans on Barsoom. Now, a sharp blade and a good swift left uppercut worked just fine... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on March 31, 2017, 12:27:15 PM
Very fun!

And sounds like a bunch of fine Tsolyani sorts would thrive there.  As even more than John Carter you were quite used to melee warfare!

Get any fun artifacts or tagalongs when you got back from Barsoom?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 01, 2017, 07:46:35 AM
Quote from: Dulahan;954622
Very fun!

And sounds like a bunch of fine Tsolyani sorts would thrive there.  As even more than John Carter you were quite used to melee warfare!

Get any fun artifacts or tagalongs when you got back from Barsoom?

We did fit right in, I'm happy to say. Had a nice ride on a skyship, too.

Not really; we had a good time, made some new friends, exchanged a few favors, that kind of thing. Picked up a few neat weapons, though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 02, 2017, 01:35:38 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;954826
We did fit right in, I'm happy to say. Had a nice ride on a skyship, too.

Not really; we had a good time, made some new friends, exchanged a few favors, that kind of thing. Picked up a few neat weapons, though.

Did you manage to obtain a radium pistol:)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 02, 2017, 08:01:16 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;955047
Did you manage to obtain a radium pistol:)?


I didn't, but Si N'te did, from one of the ladies in her sewing circle. She keeps it in her needlepoint basket 'for emergencies'.

Most I ever got was a pair of Colts and a dozen three-band Enfields for my guards from the elves in Blackmoor - 'magic Elvish bang-sticks', Arneson called them. Phil let me keep them, but with the absolute proviso that they were never to be used on his game table or in his game room; he was concerned that the black-powder smoke would stain the drapes or the carpet on the table.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on April 03, 2017, 03:29:29 PM
Thank the gods of Stability and Change that the session happened!

...and as usual went nothing like I expected.

We got to introduce a new character, still possibly an occasional guest role - one of my best friends, who is still a bit unwilling to commit to a Friday Night game, liking having it open.  But playing a total smartass of an Administrative Priestess of Hry'y with a Very High Lineage within the Scroll of Wisdom Clan - but much fun was had, which may have changed their mind.  (As planned!)

Sadly, there was some bad news too.  As our Priest of Dlamelish's player got a new job far out of town, so will be leaving us.  :(

Hard to describe exactly what happened here, a lot of it was the PCs getting to know themselves a bit better.  Heavy on the RP.  Trying to plan amongst themselves how to deal with the Pirates I mentioned in the last post.  Meeting with superiors and Clan Elders to set things in motion.  And being stymied by bureaucracy and poor calligraphy rolls (yes, the Governor's assistant PC has not yet made his petition due to not being happy with his handwriting).  Very fun session though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 03, 2017, 04:59:07 PM
So, the session went predictably unpredictable, like all good sessions?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;955100
I didn't, but Si N'te did, from one of the ladies in her sewing circle. She keeps it in her needlepoint basket 'for emergencies'.

Most I ever got was a pair of Colts and a dozen three-band Enfields for my guards from the elves in Blackmoor - 'magic Elvish bang-sticks', Arneson called them. Phil let me keep them, but with the absolute proviso that they were never to be used on his game table or in his game room; he was concerned that the black-powder smoke would stain the drapes or the carpet on the table.


Definitely a good choice for a radium pistol's hiding place, Uncle! And for some reason, the words "Elvin boomsticks" made me laugh.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 03, 2017, 05:13:09 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;955207
Thank the gods of Stability and Change that the session happened!

...and as usual went nothing like I expected.

We got to introduce a new character, still possibly an occasional guest role - one of my best friends, who is still a bit unwilling to commit to a Friday Night game, liking having it open.  But playing a total smartass of an Administrative Priestess of Hry'y with a Very High Lineage within the Scroll of Wisdom Clan - but much fun was had, which may have changed their mind.  (As planned!)

Sadly, there was some bad news too.  As our Priest of Dlamelish's player got a new job far out of town, so will be leaving us.  :(

Hard to describe exactly what happened here, a lot of it was the PCs getting to know themselves a bit better.  Heavy on the RP.  Trying to plan amongst themselves how to deal with the Pirates I mentioned in the last post.  Meeting with superiors and Clan Elders to set things in motion.  And being stymied by bureaucracy and poor calligraphy rolls (yes, the Governor's assistant PC has not yet made his petition due to not being happy with his handwriting).  Very fun session though.

And that, in my very biased opinion, is the hallmark of a good GM, good players, and a great game session. Looking forward to seeing how this plays out... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 03, 2017, 05:14:30 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;955225
Definitely a good choice for a radium pistol's hiding place, Uncle! And for some reason, the words "Elvin boomsticks" made me laugh.

Si N'te isn't a casual killer, but is much more ruthless then I am. The people she kills really do need killing, and the world is better off without them.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 03, 2017, 06:18:08 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;955228
Si N'te isn't a casual killer, but is much more ruthless then I am. The people she kills really do need killing, and the world is better off without them.

This young one doesn't doubt the Lady's motives, Uncle! How would one dare question the decisions of his elders:)?

And the phrase "elvin boomsticks" reminded me of a classic quote from a character who's the perfect example of a person who would get the nickname "dog food" in Tekumel;).

Quote from: Army of Darkness
"Alright you Primitive Screwheads, listen up! You see this? This... is my boomstick!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 03, 2017, 06:29:22 PM
Hello Uncle,

So I have been reading the S&G sourcebook. So much there. So much to expand on in ones own games. Since you have been talking a bit about Mars. I have a question about Riruchel. In the book the Professor says that Riruchel is "marginally inhabitable" at the poles. Would you by chance have any insight into that? Any know adventures there that you know of?

Thanks,

H:0)

PS I'm also been indulging into The Lord of Light. Sam is about to get involved with some demons in Hellwell...lots of good stuff as well!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 04, 2017, 03:11:12 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;955247
This young one doesn't doubt the Lady's motives, Uncle! How would one dare question the decisions of his elders:)?

And the phrase "elvin boomsticks" reminded me of a classic quote from a character who's the perfect example of a person who would get the nickname "dog food" in Tekumel;).

Understood; didn't think you were.

Yep; very classic! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 04, 2017, 03:14:18 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;955249
Hello Uncle,

So I have been reading the S&G sourcebook. So much there. So much to expand on in ones own games. Since you have been talking a bit about Mars. I have a question about Riruchel. In the book the Professor says that Riruchel is "marginally inhabitable" at the poles. Would you by chance have any insight into that? Any know adventures there that you know of?

Thanks,

H:0)

PS I'm also been indulging into The Lord of Light. Sam is about to get involved with some demons in Hellwell...lots of good stuff as well!!!

Riruchel's polar caps are cold, dry, and a little light on oxygen. We did see ruins of some sort, but nothing we could identify. We poked around for a bit, like any tourists in an ancient ruined site, and then boarded the ship to go home.

That's a great book, too!!! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on April 04, 2017, 03:19:05 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;955227
And that, in my very biased opinion, is the hallmark of a good GM, good players, and a great game session. Looking forward to seeing how this plays out... :)

My view is the less work I need to do as a GM, the better.  So I always try to give them just enough rope to hang themselves... and somehow they always manage to find a loaded revolver and opt for Russian Roulette instead.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 04, 2017, 03:42:34 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;955379
My view is the less work I need to do as a GM, the better.  So I always try to give them just enough rope to hang themselves... and somehow they always manage to find a loaded revolver and opt for Russian Roulette instead.

Ain't that the truth! It has never ceased to amaze me, over the decades, how perfectly good people turn into idiots as player-characters and do things which are patently dumb and not in their own interests. I freely admit that it gives me a lot to work with, but still... :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 04, 2017, 04:32:46 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;955379
My view is the less work I need to do as a GM, the better.  So I always try to give them just enough rope to hang themselves... and somehow they always manage to find a loaded revolver and opt for Russian Roulette instead.

Isn't that the hallmark of players in general;)?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on April 05, 2017, 10:47:44 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;955384
Ain't that the truth! It has never ceased to amaze me, over the decades, how perfectly good people turn into idiots as player-characters and do things which are patently dumb and not in their own interests. I freely admit that it gives me a lot to work with, but still... :eek:

Quote from: AsenRG;955394
Isn't that the hallmark of players in general;)?

I know, right!  To both.

And it really IS usually the more stupid stuff that surprises me, not the smarter stuff.  Well, I guess the latter does as well, just in a different and more pleasant way.  Of course as a player, I tend to take pride in moments I surprise my GM and hear "I never expected that!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on April 05, 2017, 12:48:29 PM
Hrugga's question about Riruchel and travelling there reminds me of a statement made by Jeff Dee in the 4th episode of the Hall of Blue Illumination podcast.

Around the 41mn mark, Mr. Dee indeed remarks that, for him, Tékumel is a fantasy role-playing game built on top of a science-fiction premise, which gives players a chance to explore science-fiction tropes through fantasy.

I personally wholeheartedly agree with him. It's also nice to have it stated so clearly.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 05, 2017, 01:15:37 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;955376
Riruchel's polar caps are cold, dry, and a little light on oxygen. We did see ruins of some sort, but nothing we could identify. We poked around for a bit, like any tourists in an ancient ruined site, and then boarded the ship to go home.

That's a great book, too!!! :)


So Uncle could you please tell a bit more? The cirumstances of said trip and the "ship" you were on...Is this in TStPH?

Thanks,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 05, 2017, 05:40:40 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;955394
Isn't that the hallmark of players in general;)?

I don't know; Gronan and weren't that stupid as players, and neither were the people we played alongside. Those of us who are still alive are still pretty canny players.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 05, 2017, 05:41:50 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;955528
Hrugga's question about Riruchel and travelling there reminds me of a statement made by Jeff Dee in the 4th episode of the Hall of Blue Illumination podcast.

Around the 41mn mark, Mr. Dee indeed remarks that, for him, Tékumel is a fantasy role-playing game built on top of a science-fiction premise, which gives players a chance to explore science-fiction tropes through fantasy.

I personally wholeheartedly agree with him. It's also nice to have it stated so clearly.

Agreed! And it is, in my experience. And very neatly put, too.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 05, 2017, 05:45:12 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;955537
So Uncle could you please tell a bit more? The cirumstances of said trip and the "ship" you were on...Is this in TStPH?

Thanks,

H:0)

It will be; this was one of the times when dear old Turshanmu had offered to give us a lift somewhere in his little scout ship, and he got his controls crossed. Luckily, I'd packed provisions, otherwise the kindly old sorcerer was going to be in trouble.

Anything specific you wanted to know? I work better with specific ones then general ones.

By the way, I now have a model of his little ship, too... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 05, 2017, 10:14:06 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;955603
It will be; this was one of the times when dear old Turshanmu had offered to give us a lift somewhere in his little scout ship, and he got his controls crossed. Luckily, I'd packed provisions, otherwise the kindly old sorcerer was going to be in trouble.

Anything specific you wanted to know? I work better with specific ones then general ones.

By the way, I now have a model of his little ship, too... :)


Uncle,

Do you remember which pole the base was located and how big it was? Also since you mention it, I would love to see that little "ship"...!!!

Thank you as always,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 06, 2017, 03:36:14 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;955500
I know, right!  To both.

And it really IS usually the more stupid stuff that surprises me, not the smarter stuff.  Well, I guess the latter does as well, just in a different and more pleasant way.  Of course as a player, I tend to take pride in moments I surprise my GM and hear "I never expected that!"
Well, I tend to just hammer the stupid out of them, so I don't see it too often:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;955600
I don't know; Gronan and weren't that stupid as players, and neither were the people we played alongside. Those of us who are still alive are still pretty canny players.
But Uncle, I'm talking about smart decisions, too. Just unexpected ones, and probably amusingly dangerous;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 06, 2017, 05:46:40 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;955649
Uncle,

Do you remember which pole the base was located and how big it was? Also since you mention it, I would love to see that little "ship"...!!!

Thank you as always,

H:0)

North pole, a couple of square kilometers from what we could see.

The only description I ever got from Phil was "spherical, about the size of a tubeway car, silvery grey, hatch on top, looks like a spaceship - you know, like in 'Space Vikings!" So...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]861[/ATTACH]

Got this casting from a vendor at the flea market ay Cincy Con; I am told it's a bad casting, but it looks fine to me.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 06, 2017, 05:49:56 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;955778
Well, I tend to just hammer the stupid out of them, so I don't see it too often:).

But Uncle, I'm talking about smart decisions, too. Just unexpected ones, and probably amusingly dangerous;).

Understood, and I agree with you - unexpected is always a lot of fun for me.(Mayhem usually ensues.) What's driven me mad, over the decades, is ponderous pacing and decision-making processes that usually result in a decision that I saw coming several hours ago and which is astonishingly predictable.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 06, 2017, 06:33:28 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;955805
North pole, a couple of square kilometers from what we could see.

The only description I ever got from Phil was "spherical, about the size of a tubeway car, silvery grey, hatch on top, looks like a spaceship - you know, like in 'Space Vikings!" So...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]861[/ATTACH]

Got this casting from a vendor at the flea market ay Cincy Con; I am told it's a bad casting, but it looks fine to me.


Very cool!!! That would leads me to my next question. How did the Professor see Humanspace technology? Pulp style such as Lensman? Or did he have something else in mind(apart from Space Vikings)? Thank you for sharing!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 06, 2017, 09:31:26 PM
Chirine,

Love the Tardis :).
What other planets did you make it to in the Tekumel system? Would you be able to give us some details about the location, i.e. terrain, inhabitants, atmosphere, etc?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 07, 2017, 05:32:43 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;955820
Very cool!!! That would leads me to my next question. How did the Professor see Humanspace technology? Pulp style such as Lensman? Or did he have something else in mind(apart from Space Vikings)? Thank you for sharing!!!

H:0)

Phil's view was very much in the pulp genre, and the Lensman series fits in this nicely. "Space Vikings" comes into this as one of the players happened to have his copy at the table, and Phil started paging through it with obvious delight. So, plot-wise, his mantra of "Action! Adventure! Romance!" very much applied. As for the look of the thing, Phil was very much in the mode of 1930s 'streamline art deco moderne', as is Bucky Fuller's Dymaxion cars and buildings; as we've mentioned a while back Phil knew what the future looked like - just like the the 1939 World's Fair.

So, my little ship looks a lot more 'modern' as in "2001 - A Space Odyssey" or the kind of "We must show all the panel lines to show the fans that we really put a lot of work into the ship models!" look hat Hollywood has conditioned modern viewers to, but my reply is that the thing was a whole $15 and it'll paint up just fine, saving me a week of work that most gamers will never be able to appreciate. And the book Phil was holding up had panel lines on the ship on the cover - it was the Ace edition, and I still have mine - so there we are... :)

And in later years, people got all cranky bitch all over Phil because his view of the future wasn't out of Star Trek / Star Wars/ Macross; he got pretty tired of it, and tended to avoid the subject when he could.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 07, 2017, 05:57:31 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;955862
Chirine,

Love the Tardis :).
What other planets did you make it to in the Tekumel system? Would you be able to give us some details about the location, i.e. terrain, inhabitants, atmosphere, etc?

Shemek.

Ahem! It is not a TARDIS, it is a "Telephone Box". And it's a pretty bad one, too, as it looks nothing like any of the GPO boxes. It does, however, bear a startling resemblance to a Metropolitan Police Mk 2 call box - the rozzers lost a complaint about who owned the trademark, by the way, as Auntie Beeb had gotten there first. So, as long as you never - ever - use it in any sort of activity relating to the IP owned by A Certain State-owned Telecommunications Monopoly you're safe from Auntie Beeb's Men In Black from paying you a visit and whisking you away in their black helicopters to Luton. Never To Be Seen Again, of course.

Right. Tell that to my Missus, who was on a first-name basis with more then a few of the people involved. Who also made me look at:

http://www.themindrobber.co.uk/real-police-box-history.html (http://www.themindrobber.co.uk/real-police-box-history.html)

As for the other planets on our system, yes, we dropped by for visits during our 'tourists see the world(s) phase', but we didn't see or get shot at by anybody so we assumed that they are uninhabited. Ruins as mentioned, but that's it. Atmospheres largely unbreathable, unless maybe you're a Shunned One, and local conditions about what one would expect for each given their positions in the system. Which is why when dear old Turshanmu would follow his usual habit of arriving and opening the hatch to see where we were, we'd get pretty cranky - no airlock.

Kashi is your big tourist spot; imagine the Death Star spread out all nice and flat for you to map. The custodians, on the other hand, are a handful.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 07, 2017, 07:56:58 PM
Like that scene in Flesh Gordon:

* sniffs * "Good... there's oxygen here."
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 08, 2017, 04:57:53 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;955995
Ahem! It is not a TARDIS, it is a "Telephone Box". And it's a pretty bad one, too, as it looks nothing like any of the GPO boxes. It does, however, bear a startling resemblance to a Metropolitan Police Mk 2 call box - the rozzers lost a complaint about who owned the trademark, by the way, as Auntie Beeb had gotten there first. So, as long as you never - ever - use it in any sort of activity relating to the IP owned by A Certain State-owned Telecommunications Monopoly you're safe from Auntie Beeb's Men In Black from paying you a visit and whisking you away in their black helicopters to Luton. Never To Be Seen Again, of course.

Right. Tell that to my Missus, who was on a first-name basis with more then a few of the people involved. Who also made me look at:

http://www.themindrobber.co.uk/real-police-box-history.html (http://www.themindrobber.co.uk/real-police-box-history.html)

As for the other planets on our system, yes, we dropped by for visits during our 'tourists see the world(s) phase', but we didn't see or get shot at by anybody so we assumed that they are uninhabited. Ruins as mentioned, but that's it. Atmospheres largely unbreathable, unless maybe you're a Shunned One, and local conditions about what one would expect for each given their positions in the system. Which is why when dear old Turshanmu would follow his usual habit of arriving and opening the hatch to see where we were, we'd get pretty cranky - no airlock.

Kashi is your big tourist spot; imagine the Death Star spread out all nice and flat for you to map. The custodians, on the other hand, are a handful.

Kashi seems like the hot property, then! What's the going rate for buying a villa there, did you bother asking:)?
Also, what is special about the inhabitants;)?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;956005
Like that scene in Flesh Gordon:

* sniffs * "Good... there's oxygen here."


But does it also have enough N to be breathable;)?
My players would ask that, funny enough, being trained as biologist does that to people. And they'd only remove their helmets after a full spectral analysis!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 08, 2017, 09:55:54 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;956005
Like that scene in Flesh Gordon:

* sniffs * "Good... there's oxygen here."

You know, I still don't know if Phil ever saw that romp (where a bunch of SF fans make off with a perfectly legit porn film and turn it into an epic - may of them would go on to do a little confection called "Star Wars") and modeled dear old Turshanmu on Dr. Flexi Jerkoff. We will never know, I think.

I'll betcha, my General, that the youngsters on this forum have never heard of this movie, let alone actually seen it. Ah, the days of our youth, gone like dust on the wind...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 08, 2017, 10:00:03 AM
Quote from: AsenRG;956070
Kashi seems like the hot property, then! What's the going rate for buying a villa there, did you bother asking:)?
Also, what is special about the inhabitants;)?



But does it also have enough N to be breathable;)?
My players would ask that, funny enough, being trained as biologist does that to people. And they'd only remove their helmets after a full spectral analysis!


The locals on Kashi are all machine intelligences, and don't take kindly to unauthorized visitors. Communicating with them was possible - on the order of talking to your vacuum cleaner - but proved 'difficult'. Gettine a villa was not an option; the moon has no atmosphere, and hard vacuum plays havoc with my asthma.

Helmets? Spectral analysis? Must be nice; all we had was sticking Origo out the hatch to see if he'd turn blue...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on April 08, 2017, 10:16:31 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;956096
I'll betcha, my General, that the youngsters on this forum have never heard of this movie, let alone actually seen it. Ah, the days of our youth, gone like dust on the wind...


Ooh, the pain! The humiliation! The hemorrhoids!
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 08, 2017, 10:35:36 AM
Quote from: Greentongue;956102
Ooh, the pain! The humiliation! The hemorrhoids!
=

:)  And by today's Internet standards, it's both pretty tame and pretty low-key. But, to us fans of Republic serials, it was howlingly funny.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Telarus on April 08, 2017, 11:07:37 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;956096
You know, I still don't know if Phil ever saw that romp (where a bunch of SF fans make off with a perfectly legit porn film and turn it into an epic - may of them would go on to do a little confection called "Star Wars") and modeled dear old Turshanmu on Dr. Flexi Jerkoff. We will never know, I think.

I'll betcha, my General, that the youngsters on this forum have never heard of this movie, let alone actually seen it. Ah, the days of our youth, gone like dust on the wind...


Hahaha, maybe not all of them, but the 90s highschool Theater group from Kona Hawaii that I hung out with had some "odd" interests. Also my first long-term gaming group. ;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 08, 2017, 12:45:20 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;956097
Helmets? Spectral analysis? Must be nice; all we had was sticking Origo out the hatch to see if he'd turn blue...

Which, we must confess, was fairly amusing in its own right...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 08, 2017, 01:23:09 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;956096
You know, I still don't know if Phil ever saw that romp (where a bunch of SF fans make off with a perfectly legit porn film and turn it into an epic - may of them would go on to do a little confection called "Star Wars") and modeled dear old Turshanmu on Dr. Flexi Jerkoff. We will never know, I think.

I'll betcha, my General, that the youngsters on this forum have never heard of this movie, let alone actually seen it. Ah, the days of our youth, gone like dust on the wind...
If this one is part of said "youngsters", Uncle, don't bet anything you can't easily and remorselessly part with...:)
If not, well, you might stand a chance, but Flesh Gordon was well-known in my high-school.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;956097
The locals on Kashi are all machine intelligences, and don't take kindly to unauthorized visitors. Communicating with them was possible - on the order of talking to your vacuum cleaner - but proved 'difficult'. Gettine a villa was not an option; the moon has no atmosphere, and hard vacuum plays havoc with my asthma.

Helmets? Spectral analysis? Must be nice; all we had was sticking Origo out the hatch to see if he'd turn blue...
Oh, bad climate and too strict law enforcement, then. Alas, for it sounds like a nice, orderly place with low criminality...;)

I admit I was talking about more general SF games, though, like Traveller and the like.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;956128
Which, we must confess, was fairly amusing in its own right...

Of that, Glorious General, we have no doubt:D!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 08, 2017, 07:46:25 PM
Quote from: Telarus;956110
Hahaha, maybe not all of them, but the 90s highschool Theater group from Kona Hawaii that I hung out with had some "odd" interests. Also my first long-term gaming group. ;)

:) You'd appreciate this, then:  http://www.oglaf.com (http://www.oglaf.com)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 08, 2017, 07:49:16 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;956128
Which, we must confess, was fairly amusing in its own right...

Mostly, I think, because he was always so eager to be the first one out the hatch, no matter where we were. 'Spirit of Discovery', and all that; then he'd fall back into the cabin asphyxiated or full of sharp pointy objects, and we'd know not to go outside. Happened multiple times over the years; it never seemed to phase him that he was going to take a lot of damage the moment he popped out the hatch...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 08, 2017, 07:51:43 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;956131
If this one is part of said "youngsters", Uncle, don't bet anything you can't easily and remorselessly part with...:)
If not, well, you might stand a chance, but Flesh Gordon was well-known in my high-school.

Oh, bad climate and too strict law enforcement, then. Alas, for it sounds like a nice, orderly place with low criminality...;)

I admit I was talking about more general SF games, though, like Traveller and the like.

Of that, Glorious General, we have no doubt:D!

It was a metaphor; I figured you were educated.

It was quiet and clean, I'll give it that.

I assumed so; I was making a joke. :)

It really was; you'd have howled with laughter! :)
Title: A Series of Fortunate Events
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 08, 2017, 08:06:23 PM
The bronchial infection is getting better, thanks to the mighty and powerful antibiotics and the even more powerful cough medicine; I'm feeling almost normal.

Through a series of fortunate events, I would up with what I had been told was an old Panasonic 42" LCD screen, but which turned out to be a pretty-much brand-new Panasonic 42" high-end plasma screen. Spent the day installing it in the game room and integrating it into the room's sound system, and I have to say that I am very pleased with the upgrade. The Sony 40" LCD screen that had been holding the fort has now reverted to the role for which I bought it some three years ago, a replacement for the LCD projector I used for my RPG game at Gary Con three years ago; I did like projecting the map up on the wall, but an active screen was what was needed. The Sony is a far more capable stand-alone 'portable' unit then the Panasonic is, so we come out ahead on all fronts.

Ran the Korda brothers' "Thief of Baghdad" for the test signal, and it looks great - as good as ever, and still a heap of fun and useful information and details for the GM and players. Evil doing at the palace, beautiful princesses, mighty sorcery, ships, flying carpets, the All-Seeing Eye, giant spiders, and genie who steals the show. I can see why Phil liked it... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 09, 2017, 10:42:16 AM
Hello All,

I just came across a nice article about The Professor's early writings, letters to the editor, and involvement with early Sci-Fi fandom.

http://tekumelcollecting.com/2017/04/08/growing-up-with-tekumel-early-writings-of-m-a-r-barker/#more-835

Enjoy,

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: altfritz on April 09, 2017, 02:15:46 PM
Interesting article! I have an article Professor Barker wrote for Slingshot, the Society of Ancients magazine, on the Mayan armies. It's old school WRG wargaming. I was pretty excited when I found it in an old back issue I bought at a flea market. I scanned it and sent it to the Foundation thinking they'd throw it up on their blog right away. Sadly nothing happened. I'd love to put it up on my blog but would need permission and they're the ones to give it. :-(
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 09, 2017, 02:42:45 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;956260
Hello All,

I just came across a nice article about The Professor's early writings, letters to the editor, and involvement with early Sci-Fi fandom.

http://tekumelcollecting.com/2017/04/08/growing-up-with-tekumel-early-writings-of-m-a-r-barker/#more-835

Enjoy,

H:0)

Agreed; it's a great article! It's a part of Phil's life that really was important to him, and his early writing - I have a lot of it - really does shed some light on what he was thinking when he thought about his world.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 09, 2017, 02:48:25 PM
Quote from: altfritz;956272
Interesting article! I have an article Professor Barker wrote for Slingshot, the Society of Ancients magazine, on the Mayan armies. It's old school WRG wargaming. I was pretty excited when I found it in an old back issue I bought at a flea market. I scanned it and sent it to the Foundation thinking they'd throw it up on their blog right away. Sadly nothing happened. I'd love to put it up on my blog but would need permission and they're the ones to give it. :-(


That's sad, but not surprising. Phil was, we found out after he passed away, one of the very early members of the Society and had all of his issues of Slingshot from the very first one onward. I made sure to save these for the Foundation's files - otherwise they would have gone in the trash - but as they have no interest in miniatures gaming (of any sort or period) the files just seem to sit on their shelves. Lots of fascinating material in there, like a manuscript copy of Tony Bath's campaign rules sent by him to Phil pre-publication.

Pity, but there doesn't seem to be much interest in that kind of thing on the part of the Foundation. The raw data, I should say; 'proper interpretation' seems to be the mantra, I gather...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 09, 2017, 03:39:59 PM
Nor are they interested in disposing of things not related to their mission.  I'd buy Phil's historical medieval figures in an instant.  But I want them to game with, not worship.  Or have sex with.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 09, 2017, 05:28:00 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;956278
Nor are they interested in disposing of things not related to their mission.  I'd buy Phil's historical medieval figures in an instant.  But I want them to game with, not worship.  Or have sex with.

Which I'm sort of baffled by - their attitude, not yours - as a year before Phil passed away, they were asking me who they should give Phil's miniatures collection to. I pointed out, then and later, that the historicals should - from my point of view as an archivist - be kept together with all of the text materials relating to that genre of gaming; Phil had, as you'll remember, a vast pile of rules, books, and magazines related to the early days of the hobby. The Tekumel figures, I also pointed out, were such an integral part of his Tekumel gaming that getting rid of them would be a really bad mistake, from both an archival and a public relations point of view. So, I did a photo inventory of everything, so people in the future would have the data for themselves.

Since then, of course, it's become all about control of the source materials and their 'proper interpretation'. Raw data is not to be allowed to fall into the hands of the non-indoctrinated, as they might start thinking for themselves. (And we can't have that - look what happened to D&D!) Me, I stopped caring when somebody started putting their own name on Phil's works; I don't mind co-authorship - did it myself with Phil - but out and out 'appropriation' just seems wrong.

But what do I know, eh? Rainy day, so I'm in the game room sorting stuff and doing the laundry while the plasma screen runs happily along...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 09, 2017, 06:02:21 PM
Good point about the old rules sets and historical minis, but it's a shame that stuff is just sitting and rotting.  There might be some of the missing stuff Jon Peterson is looking for in there.  As I've mentioned before, how many rules sets and games appeared only in one issue of some wargaming magazine?

And whoever thought "plasma screen" would be a television set and not Origo's latest experiment gone bad...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 09, 2017, 06:14:36 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;956307
Good point about the old rules sets and historical minis, but it's a shame that stuff is just sitting and rotting.  There might be some of the missing stuff Jon Peterson is looking for in there.  As I've mentioned before, how many rules sets and games appeared only in one issue of some wargaming magazine?

And whoever thought "plasma screen" would be a television set and not Origo's latest experiment gone bad...

Literally rotting, in some cases; I did warn them, but they told me that they had (quote) "Top people, the very top, working on it."

Oh, yes, agreed; a historian could make a lot out of the collection. Jon would be good, but he's been specifically excluded from access to the collection by the Foundation. I was told, by the Foundation, that this is because he does not agree with their conclusions about the origins of RPGs - they are of the theory that Gary, aided by Dave - stole the idea from Phil in 1974; they have a book on this coming out, I was told. (When I pointed out the problems with this theory, I was told to come up with the data to support them otherwise my loyalty to them would be in question.)

Me, I'm just astounded. It'd be easy to put everything up on the web - it already exists in digital format, thanks to my Missus - and offer access to the collection for a nominal monthly subscription. (This was actually suggested to them, but they turned the idea down cold.) Instead, what we have is total denial of access - unless sanitized through them - and a net result of the kind of discussions you see all over the Internet where people get interested in Tekumel and then walk away because they can't get access to the data. While it does ensure total control over the IP, it also looks to be killing the thing as time goes on. "Better no Tekumel then not OUR Tekumel!" as has been said to me by some of them on more then a few occasions.

Heck, yes; me, I used to think that a 'plasma screen' was something you set up around the spaceship to keep the creepy-crawlies out. Instead, it's like a drive-in movie, down here...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 09, 2017, 06:29:54 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;956303
Which I'm sort of baffled by - their attitude, not yours - as a year before Phil passed away, they were asking me who they should give Phil's miniatures collection to. I pointed out, then and later, that the historicals should - from my point of view as an archivist - be kept together with all of the text materials relating to that genre of gaming; Phil had, as you'll remember, a vast pile of rules, books, and magazines related to the early days of the hobby. The Tekumel figures, I also pointed out, were such an integral part of his Tekumel gaming that getting rid of them would be a really bad mistake, from both an archival and a public relations point of view. So, I did a photo inventory of everything, so people in the future would have the data for themselves.

Since then, of course, it's become all about control of the source materials and their 'proper interpretation'. Raw data is not to be allowed to fall into the hands of the non-indoctrinated, as they might start thinking for themselves. (And we can't have that - look what happened to D&D!) Me, I stopped caring when somebody started putting their own name on Phil's works; I don't mind co-authorship - did it myself with Phil - but out and out 'appropriation' just seems wrong.

But what do I know, eh? Rainy day, so I'm in the game room sorting stuff and doing the laundry while the plasma screen runs happily along...


Isn't that illegal in your country, too, Uncle? I couldn't legally do that here even with the author's permission. And if I knew someone who is doing so, I should denounce it, or risk a charge of complicity.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 09, 2017, 06:50:41 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;956308
the origins of RPGs - they are of the theory that Gary, aided by Dave - stole the idea from Phil in 1974; they have a book on this coming out, I was told.

Um, there are still eyewitnesses living who will testify this ain't true... not to mention Jon has already documented letters from Phil in early 1974 about my D&D game.

Gods of Cimmeria, this whole thing is starting to make my asshole tired.

Meanwhile, now that I'm retired I have all these kits waiting to be built...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 09, 2017, 08:05:15 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;956309
Isn't that illegal in your country, too, Uncle? I couldn't legally do that here even with the author's permission. And if I knew someone who is doing so, I should denounce it, or risk a charge of complicity.


I think so; you'd have to look at the copyright laws to be sure. On the other hand, the owner of the copyright has to object, and in this case Mrs. Barker simply doesn't care - as long as she doesn't have to deal with it, it's not her problem. A number of things of a similar nature have been reported to her, and she's ignored the reports. She was never involved or interested in Phil's gaming or Tekumel; that was his 'night out with the boys', and not her problem.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 09, 2017, 08:14:21 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;956313
Um, there are still eyewitnesses living who will testify this ain't true... not to mention Jon has already documented letters from Phil in early 1974 about my D&D game.

Gods of Cimmeria, this whole thing is starting to make my asshole tired.

Meanwhile, now that I'm retired I have all these kits waiting to be built...


They are all liars, and part of the Gygax-Arneson gang that so cruelly ripped Phil off. And Jon probably forged the letters; they are not Officially Authorized and Approved as truth. I have this on good authority, of course, and I believe everything I am told by my betters. ("Solidarity, Reg!")

I got tired of it several years ago - see also the scar on the back of my head - and I'm still tired of this kind of crap; the latest 'news' from Con of the North that Phil persecuted gays and hated them because he was a devout Muslim is simply the latest bucket of nonsense. I never saw any of that kind of malarky when I was out there, and I don't think you did either, but then both you and and I are part of the conspiracy to deny gay guys their rightful place in gaming.

Is there a Secret Handshake or anything? I didn't get the memo...

Oh, sigh... :rolleyes:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 09, 2017, 08:33:02 PM
Uncle,

I don't think we touched on this...Did you ever game with the Professor during a different time period other than the current history of Tekumel?

Thanks,

H:0)

PS At this point I don't remember if we DID discuss it...long thread!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 09, 2017, 09:14:40 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;956318
I think so; you'd have to look at the copyright laws to be sure. On the other hand, the owner of the copyright has to object, and in this case Mrs. Barker simply doesn't care - as long as she doesn't have to deal with it, it's not her problem. A number of things of a similar nature have been reported to her, and she's ignored the reports. She was never involved or interested in Phil's gaming or Tekumel; that was his 'night out with the boys', and not her problem.

Then it's not the same, Uncle, because here it's a general crime that is prosecuted by the DA. As I said, the rights holder can allow you to publish the text for free, but allowing you to change the name on the cover is null and void, and the DA's office job:).

BTW, Uncle, is Mrs Barker aware of Phil supposedly persecuting gay guys for religious reasons? She just might take a different view of that.

Though on second thought, it's best to leave those people be, and enjoy the peace and quiet. People can compare your account and theirs, and decide on their own;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Spinachcat on April 09, 2017, 10:11:26 PM
Quote from: altfritz;956272
I'd love to put it up on my blog but would need permission and they're the ones to give it. :-(


Research the Fair Use laws. I doubt you need permission to repost quotes (even huge chunks) from an article in a blog discussing said huge quoted chunks, especially if the magazine is extinct. It is truly amazing how many out of print and extinct periodicals can be found on Archive.org.

And of course, lots of old books get posted on the web...mysteriously, anonymously and forever accessible...


Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;956278
But I want them to game with, not worship.  Or have sex with.


Stop being such a prude! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hermes Serpent on April 10, 2017, 04:16:23 AM
Actually Fair Use laws vary according to jurisdiction. Posting copies of the SoA magazine or parts thereof on-line will be regarded as "not done, Old Boy" by the committee of said group. See the UK rules at :Uk Copyright Service (https://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p09_fair_use)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: altfritz on April 10, 2017, 06:49:37 AM
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;956399
Actually Fair Use laws vary according to jurisdiction. Posting copies of the SoA magazine or parts thereof on-line will be regarded as "not done, Old Boy" by the committee of said group. See the UK rules at :Uk Copyright Service (https://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p09_fair_use)


I've already contacted SoA. They stated that the rights belong with the author. Or, in this case, the Foundation. But it sounds like (per Chirine) that all the Slingshot issues are already in their hands. I only have a partial collection...there may be other contributions as well...letters, articles, etc.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: altfritz on April 10, 2017, 06:59:15 AM
Quote
Lots of fascinating material in there, like a manuscript copy of Tony Bath's campaign rules sent by him to Phil pre-publication.


DID YOU SAY HYBORIA CAMPAIGN MANUSCRIPT???? :eek:

That would be valuable!

Howard
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: altfritz on April 10, 2017, 07:01:22 AM
I notice online that Professor Barker's miniatures fought in a battle at a recent con. Possibly Con of the North.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 10, 2017, 01:37:32 PM
Quote from: altfritz;956410
I notice online that Professor Barker's miniatures fought in a battle at a recent con. Possibly Con of the North.

Don't know about Con of the North, but they were used at GaryCon.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 10, 2017, 05:53:36 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;956322
Uncle,

I don't think we touched on this...Did you ever game with the Professor during a different time period other than the current history of Tekumel?

Thanks,

H:0)

PS At this point I don't remember if we DID discuss it...long thread!!!

Yes, we did. Bednjallan times, Engsvanyali times, and Classical Tsolyanu - about 500 years before present - are all ones that spring instantly to mind.

No, it hasn't really come up, before.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 10, 2017, 05:57:42 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;956325
Then it's not the same, Uncle, because here it's a general crime that is prosecuted by the DA. As I said, the rights holder can allow you to publish the text for free, but allowing you to change the name on the cover is null and void, and the DA's office job:).

BTW, Uncle, is Mrs Barker aware of Phil supposedly persecuting gay guys for religious reasons? She just might take a different view of that.

Though on second thought, it's best to leave those people be, and enjoy the peace and quiet. People can compare your account and theirs, and decide on their own;).

Don't know; I leave all this to the lawyers.

Nope; this is a new bit, and as the guy making the allegations is part of the Five Empires crowd that gave her (and I) such a bad time, I expect she'll ignore the whole thing. If she does hear about it, then those people will never, ever get a deal from her to publish Tekumel.

That's what I'm doing; whatever thy do has no effect on what I do in my game room, so - for all intents and purposes - I just don't worry about their antics.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 10, 2017, 06:00:08 PM
Quote from: altfritz;956406
I've already contacted SoA. They stated that the rights belong with the author. Or, in this case, the Foundation. But it sounds like (per Chirine) that all the Slingshot issues are already in their hands. I only have a partial collection...there may be other contributions as well...letters, articles, etc.

Actually, since it's not a Tekumel-related article - I've read it - the rights belong to the Barker Estate and don't fall under the Foundation's license for Tekumel materials. (I'd consult an IP lawyer, of course.) As for other materials, yes, and they do shed a lot of light on Phil's gaming philosophy.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 10, 2017, 06:01:25 PM
Quote from: altfritz;956409
DID YOU SAY HYBORIA CAMPAIGN MANUSCRIPT???? :eek:

That would be valuable!

Howard

It looked like a manuscript to the 'Running A Wargames Campaign' book that was later published, but yes, I did see some new to me Hyborian materials in the loose pages.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 10, 2017, 06:01:59 PM
Quote from: altfritz;956410
I notice online that Professor Barker's miniatures fought in a battle at a recent con. Possibly Con of the North.

Nope; those were Bill Acheson's figures at Con of the North.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 10, 2017, 06:06:10 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;956442
Don't know about Con of the North, but they were used at GaryCon.

This. Paul Stormberg called me up the week before Gary Con two years ago, and told me that he had no figures for the "Legions" game that he wanted to put on at the convention the next weekend. His idea was that Gronan, on his way through the Twin Cities, could pick up my miniatures collection and bring it down to the con for the game; otherwise, they'd have to cancel the event. I have a very strict policy against loaning anything out, especially if I'm not going to be there for the event, so I said no to him. I then suggested that me should contact the Foundation and get the loan of Phil's figures, and that's what happened. Gronan can tell you more, I'm sure.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 10, 2017, 06:55:40 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;956490
Yes, we did. Bednjallan times, Engsvanyali times, and Classical Tsolyanu - about 500 years before present - are all ones that spring instantly to mind.

No, it hasn't really come up, before.


Uncle,

Since you opened the floodgates so to speak, could you tell us a bit about each instance? What was going on and the characters involved...It would be nice to hear where the Professor went with it.

Thanks,

H:0)

PS Not too much detail necessary, unless it won't be in your Magna Opus!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on April 11, 2017, 06:49:39 AM
To extrapolate on Hrugga's question regarding games taking place in other time periods, did your groups of PCs encounter a Hero of the Age? I've only read Man of Gold and Flamesong (the other books are way too expensive to purchase), but I seem to understand that the main protagonists of those books are part/members/components of the Hero (please, correct me if I'm wrong. Actually, enlighten me, whether I'm wrong or right!).

But, did your group of PCs encounter such entity? And, when it occurred, did Prof Barker explain to you then what It was? Did you notice any weird/far-out manifestations of Its power?

Did you think at one point that you yourself were a part/member/component of the Hero of the Age?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 11, 2017, 04:26:44 PM
Chirine,

If I could also add on to the Mighty Hrugga’s questions, what type of character did you play in each of the epochs that you mentioned? What were their names, classes, deity, etc..? What city did they come from? Did you explore the underworlds in these times?

Could you pass on some the details of the adventures that you had in these eras and the locations that you explored?
For example, while in the Bednalljan Campaign did you encounter Queen Nayari of the Silken Thighs, or have any dealings with her minions?    

Inquiring minds want to know.:p

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 11, 2017, 05:27:36 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;956498
Uncle,

Since you opened the floodgates so to speak, could you tell us a bit about each instance? What was going on and the characters involved...It would be nice to hear where the Professor went with it.

Thanks,

H:0)

PS Not too much detail necessary, unless it won't be in your Magna Opus!!!

1. Tripped the trap in the tomb of M'nestra in the Jakallan Underworld, and had a nice visit with Nyara of the Silken Thighs.

2. Dropped by Khirgar with a bucket of Eyloa the Blue Fish, who was immediately mistaken for a god. Mayhem ensued.

3 Sailed past Engsvan hla Ganga with Harchar on our second voyage, and he got his navigation wrong and got us to the island at the height of the Empire. More mayhem ensued.

And yes, all of this will be in the book.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 11, 2017, 05:35:00 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;956598
To extrapolate on Hrugga's question regarding games taking place in other time periods, did your groups of PCs encounter a Hero of the Age? I've only read Man of Gold and Flamesong (the other books are way too expensive to purchase), but I seem to understand that the main protagonists of those books are part/members/components of the Hero (please, correct me if I'm wrong. Actually, enlighten me, whether I'm wrong or right!).

But, did your group of PCs encounter such entity? And, when it occurred, did Prof Barker explain to you then what It was? Did you notice any weird/far-out manifestations of Its power?

Did you think at one point that you yourself were a part/member/component of the Hero of the Age?

No, to all points. The 'Hero of the Age' concept came in with Phil's last game group in the middle 1990s, the people who are now the TF. They wanted to be special people, not like the hoi polloi that had been in Phil's games up to then. if one is being strictly 'canon', and gong by the texts that Phil did, this is a 'non-canon' concept. It's been described as 'ret-conning' by some, and 'special snowflakes' by others. The concept has nothing to do with any of Phil's novels: I think you can find more about it in the Blue Room Archives, however.

I have no opinion either way; my Tekumel games are set in the Tekumel we knew with Phil, and not much else.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 11, 2017, 05:38:53 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;956730
Chirine,

If I could also add on to the Mighty Hrugga’s questions, what type of character did you play in each of the epochs that you mentioned? What were their names, classes, deity, etc..? What city did they come from? Did you explore the underworlds in these times?

Could you pass on some the details of the adventures that you had in these eras and the locations that you explored?
For example, while in the Bednalljan Campaign did you encounter Queen Nayari of the Silken Thighs, or have any dealings with her minions?    

Inquiring minds want to know.:p

Shemek.


We played the same old dull boring characters we always played; this was all part of the 'tourist phase' of gaming with Phil, where he took us around to all the cool then-new hotspots in his then-new universe for us to boggle at and enjoy.

No. We had other concerns, like survival.

Not at this point. It'll be in the book, and I'll pass it along as soon I get it typed.

Yes. Had a great time, actually.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on April 12, 2017, 08:17:35 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;956757
No, to all points. The 'Hero of the Age' concept came in with Phil's last game group in the middle 1990s, the people who are now the TF. They wanted to be special people, not like the hoi polloi that had been in Phil's games up to then. if one is being strictly 'canon', and gong by the texts that Phil did, this is a 'non-canon' concept. It's been described as 'ret-conning' by some, and 'special snowflakes' by others. The concept has nothing to do with any of Phil's novels: I think you can find more about it in the Blue Room Archives, however.

I have no opinion either way; my Tekumel games are set in the Tekumel we knew with Phil, and not much else.

That's very enlightening and interesting indeed. Thank you.
I had not realized that, in the history of Tekumel's development, the Hero of the Age concept came so late.

About the HotA concept not being related to the novels: I'm thinking of the weird and very unusual case of Lady Jai Chasa Vedlan, a.k.a. "Flamesong".
As recounted in the novel, Lady Jay becomes the living incarnation of the divine, flaming weapon known as "Flamesong", thanks to Lady Deq Dimani's mighty and mysterious sorcery.

Is that (admittedly utterly awesome) concept of a human being/becoming the incarnation of a divine weapon not related to the "Hero of the Age" idea? Upon reading the novel, I thought Lady Jay's story sort of echoed the Hero idea.
In other words, to my still quite limited understanding of Tekumel, this "living divine-weapon" concept feels very unique in all of Tekumel-related things and I'm trying to figure out if it has an origin or if it's expressed, as is or transformed, in other bits about the world, etc.

Also, do we have information on the sort of "magic" Lady Deq Dimali used to incarnate the weapon in Lady Jay? As in, did she use a machinery of the Ancients to accomplish that miracle? etc.

Sorry for the somewhat confused, jumbled questions, but it's hard to know what to ask about that episode actually, becomes it's so unique and bizarre and fantastical.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 12, 2017, 10:01:25 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;956758
We played the same old dull boring characters we always played; this was all part of the 'tourist phase' of gaming with Phil, where he took us around to all the cool then-new hotspots in his then-new universe for us to boggle at and enjoy.

No. We had other concerns, like survival.

Not at this point. It'll be in the book, and I'll pass it along as soon I get it typed.

Yes. Had a great time, actually.


Oh, OK. I misunderstood what you had written. I thought that these were side campaigns independent of the main game. Sound like fun times with much mayhem indeed! Can't wait to read all about this. Thanks for the clarification.
BTW, bow goes the book? Is there a completion in sight? I'm getting antsy to see the final product.:D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 12, 2017, 12:26:56 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;956889
Oh, OK. I misunderstood what you had written. I thought that these were side campaigns independent of the main game. Sound like fun times with much mayhem indeed! Can't wait to read all about this. Thanks for the clarification.
BTW, bow goes the book? Is there a completion in sight? I'm getting antsy to see the final product.:D


Yes!!! We can not wait to read it...!!! Looking forward to it!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 12, 2017, 01:33:22 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;956757
No, to all points. The 'Hero of the Age' concept came in with Phil's last game group in the middle 1990s,

I do remember, just before or just after Tekumel was originally "solved" back in, I think, the mid to late 70s, Kadarsha talking about Phil's spinning a few tales of the "Hero of the Age."  But I am fairly certain it never actually showed up in play, and it was only a one-time mention that I remember.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 12, 2017, 06:16:15 PM
From Neshm hiKumala:
That's very enlightening and interesting indeed. Thank you.
I had not realized that, in the history of Tekumel's development, the Hero of the Age concept came so late.


As Gronan mentions down thread, it was very lightly touched on in the early days of the campaign, in regard to the great epic heroes of the Latter Times - Hrugga, Chirine, etc. Kadarsha was interested in how you got to be a great hero, as it sounded cool. It also fit in with their style of power gaming, too.

About the HotA concept not being related to the novels: I'm thinking of the weird and very unusual case of Lady Jai Chasa Vedlan, a.k.a. "Flamesong".
As recounted in the novel, Lady Jay becomes the living incarnation of the divine, flaming weapon known as "Flamesong", thanks to Lady Deq Dimani's mighty and mysterious sorcery.


Yep; different concept, different process. Akin to the old Divine Intervention roll, with Jai as the sacrifice.

Is that (admittedly utterly awesome) concept of a human being/becoming the incarnation of a divine weapon not related to the "Hero of the Age" idea? Upon reading the novel, I thought Lady Jay's story sort of echoed the Hero idea.
In other words, to my still quite limited understanding of Tekumel, this "living divine-weapon" concept feels very unique in all of Tekumel-related things and I'm trying to figure out if it has an origin or if it's expressed, as is or transformed, in other bits about the world, etc.


It is unique, but the two concepts are not related, according to the texts I've read. See also the various Aspects of the gods, in Bob's quite useful "Mitlanyal".

Amusingly, Yours Truly has been described as an aspect of Lord Vimuhla at times.

Also, do we have information on the sort of "magic" Lady Deq Dimali used to incarnate the weapon in Lady Jay? As in, did she use a machinery of the Ancients to accomplish that miracle? etc.

No; in game terms, a DI roll. No, not as far as we know; Phil just wasn't interested in showing those cards.

Sorry for the somewhat confused, jumbled questions, but it's hard to know what to ask about that episode actually, becomes it's so unique and bizarre and fantastical.

No problem. It's what I'm here for.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 12, 2017, 06:18:57 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;956889
Oh, OK. I misunderstood what you had written. I thought that these were side campaigns independent of the main game. Sound like fun times with much mayhem indeed! Can't wait to read all about this. Thanks for the clarification.
BTW, bow goes the book? Is there a completion in sight? I'm getting antsy to see the final product.:D

Sorry. No, there was only the two campaigns he did, Mondays and Thursdays, and the two I did on Fridays and Saturdays. We played the same PCs for about twelve years - something unheard of today, perhaps.

I lost most of January, February, and March between dealing with other peoples' problems and the results. Back in action now; new lead has proven to be a tonic.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 12, 2017, 06:19:31 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;956913
Yes!!! We can not wait to read it...!!! Looking forward to it!!!

H:0)

Working on it! :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 12, 2017, 06:24:03 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;956919
I do remember, just before or just after Tekumel was originally "solved" back in, I think, the mid to late 70s, Kadarsha talking about Phil's spinning a few tales of the "Hero of the Age."  But I am fairly certain it never actually showed up in play, and it was only a one-time mention that I remember.

Yep; this was around the time the groups split. Kadarsha was talking to Phil about how he could make his PC more powerful, and the epic heroes of the Latter Times came up. The later elaboration of the idea was a very marked return to the kind of power gaming that you and I abhored, but then that was what the players in the much-reduced group wanted. Phil's letters on the subject are both fascinating and depressing. He felt he was being used as cheap entertainment, and they (for their part) told me that they felt that they were serving as his therapy group.

Either way, it's not a kind of gaming that I like, and I was very happy to be long gone when it all happened. See also your comment about "no gaming is better then bad gaming"...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 12, 2017, 06:51:21 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;956950
new lead has proven to be a tonic.

Sent downrange at approximately 830 fps?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 13, 2017, 05:37:44 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;956959
Sent downrange at approximately 830 fps?

That's certainly one way to get the desired result - shooting sure did improve my tonicity;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on April 13, 2017, 06:37:11 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;956953
"no gaming is better then bad gaming"...


Amen to that.

Thank you, Chirine and Gronan, for clarifying the origin of the "Hero of the Age" concept. And thanks, Chirine, for your reply on Lady Jay as Flamesong.

These exchanges on "power gamers" very much remind me of the discussions I had with my rpg buddies in the late 80s and early 90s.
It wasn't the same context at all: we were in our mid to late teens years then and were playing RPGs in a French context, mainly with French, British and US games.
The prototypical "power gamer" was then called "Gros Bill", which literately translates as "Big Bill". These were the players who were solely interested in amassing more weapons, more spells, more powers, more treasure, more of everything in fact, all the way up to challenging gods and demons in their own domains ... just for the hell of it. And, yes, we too were appalled by them, and we gladly made fun of them.

But that's just how some peeps like it. I still feel now as I felt then though: they're missing the point.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 13, 2017, 06:50:42 AM
They're not missing the point. They know very well where they want the point to be for them:).
What I can say is that the point they're chasing is at best of secondary interest to me;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2017, 06:04:17 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;956959
Sent downrange at approximately 830 fps?

Oh, no, my General! Such things are a momentary pleasure and only get one talked about. I refer to:

Alex Bates, 'Forge of Ice'; "Sleazy Merchant And Drowsy Guards"

Remember all those sleepy guards we used to have to deal with? Now, I have them, along with their erstwhile employer. 7 piece set.

David Soderberg, 'Dead Earth Imperial Citizens': new female warriors

Nice ladies with swords, daggers, and what are not radium pistols. Five new figures.

Dr. Mike Burns, 'Dark Fable Miniatures': "Legend of Cleopatra"

Samples from his upcoming Kickstarter. multiple figures, and I won't spoil it for anyone.

I am back to painting, and having a great time. Got the lasers for the radium cannon for the skyships, as well as the brass and copper tubing for the barrels. It's H.G. Wells meets Edgar Rice Burroughs head on, with the kind of game played by boys and the better sort of girls, as old H. G. once remarked in a set of miniatures rules we both enjoy...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2017, 06:05:52 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;957058
That's certainly one way to get the desired result - shooting sure did improve my tonicity;).


I enjoy it myself, although 7.7mm Arisaka rounds are a little hard to come by. Took the girls out to the range a while back, and let them blast away to their hearts' content.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2017, 06:07:23 PM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;957064
Amen to that.

Thank you, Chirine and Gronan, for clarifying the origin of the "Hero of the Age" concept. And thanks, Chirine, for your reply on Lady Jay as Flamesong.

These exchanges on "power gamers" very much remind me of the discussions I had with my rpg buddies in the late 80s and early 90s.
It wasn't the same context at all: we were in our mid to late teens years then and were playing RPGs in a French context, mainly with French, British and US games.
The prototypical "power gamer" was then called "Gros Bill", which literately translates as "Big Bill". These were the players who were solely interested in amassing more weapons, more spells, more powers, more treasure, more of everything in fact, all the way up to challenging gods and demons in their own domains ... just for the hell of it. And, yes, we too were appalled by them, and we gladly made fun of them.

But that's just how some peeps like it. I still feel now as I felt then though: they're missing the point.

You're welcome! Happy to help.

I don;t like 'power gamers'; seen too many of them go by, over the years, and they tend to make everyones' game unpleasant. See also Gary Fine's book, if you want details on the 1970s group.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 13, 2017, 06:08:46 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;957066
They're not missing the point. They know very well where they want the point to be for them:).
What I can say is that the point they're chasing is at best of secondary interest to me;).

Agreed, and they are usually unpleasant to game with as well. I avoid them, and have done so for decades.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 13, 2017, 10:41:23 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;957149
Oh, no, my General! Such things are a momentary pleasure and only get one talked about. I refer to:

Alex Bates, 'Forge of Ice'; "Sleazy Merchant And Drowsy Guards"

Remember all those sleepy guards we used to have to deal with? Now, I have them, along with their erstwhile employer. 7 piece set.

David Soderberg, 'Dead Earth Imperial Citizens': new female warriors

Nice ladies with swords, daggers, and what are not radium pistols. Five new figures.

Dr. Mike Burns, 'Dark Fable Miniatures': "Legend of Cleopatra"

Samples from his upcoming Kickstarter. multiple figures, and I won't spoil it for anyone.

I am back to painting, and having a great time. Got the lasers for the radium cannon for the skyships, as well as the brass and copper tubing for the barrels. It's H.G. Wells meets Edgar Rice Burroughs head on, with the kind of game played by boys and the better sort of girls, as old H. G. once remarked in a set of miniatures rules we both enjoy...

John Bobek's "Little Wars" game at this last GaryCon had a pair of nine-year-old girls happily slicing each others' armies to ribbons.  Bloodthirsty little Amazons, they were.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 14, 2017, 11:49:37 PM
Chirine,

A question regarding the city of Sarku. Does the CoS have any other major temples located within its walls, or is it pretty much a one horse town when it comes to Pavar's other deities?

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 15, 2017, 09:17:20 AM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;957198
John Bobek's "Little Wars" game at this last GaryCon had a pair of nine-year-old girls happily slicing each others' armies to ribbons.  Bloodthirsty little Amazons, they were.

Wonderful, and a reason to go!

I got to thinking that it might be fun to apply the 'Little Wars' model to Barsoom, and as tiny laser pointers are really cheap...

Now all I have to do is make a half-dozen elevation gears with pointing wheels...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 15, 2017, 09:19:13 AM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;957336
Chirine,

A question regarding the city of Sarku. Does the CoS have any other major temples located within its walls, or is it pretty much a one horse town when it comes to Pavar's other deities?

Shemek.

The place does have all of the twenty, but they are all pretty small and minor; they cater to the transient trade, more then anything else, as the locals are all Sarku and Durritlamish types. It's not a plum assignment unless you're from those two temples.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 15, 2017, 10:04:50 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;957381
The place does have all of the twenty, but they are all pretty small and minor; they cater to the transient trade, more then anything else, as the locals are all Sarku and Durritlamish types. It's not a plum assignment unless you're from those two temples.


Unless you were sent there to spy(and don't get caught)!!! Mayhem, mayhem , and more mayhem!!! That leads me to a question. How does high level spying go on with the availability of Sorcery and mental powers to both sides? As far as detecting and hiding your craft?

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 15, 2017, 01:38:31 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;957384
Unless you were sent there to spy(and don't get caught)!!! Mayhem, mayhem , and more mayhem!!! That leads me to a question. How does high level spying go on with the availability of Sorcery and mental powers to both sides? As far as detecting and hiding your craft?

H:0)

Same as it has been done for centuries, with eyes and ears on the ground to find out what's going on and report back. The vast majority of what's referred to as 'tradecraft' does not need or require either sorcery or other things - if anything, these take the place of what are called 'technical means'. Especially as these are also pretty limited in range, unless you're an Undying Wizard. The vast majority of information gathering work in the Five Empires involves sending people to meetings, cultivating contacts, and information from sources. (Remember Lady Tsahul?) If you want to know more about this kind of thing, try Tom Clancy's Red Cardinal sub-series inside the Jack Ryan series. Quite a lot of very good tradecraft in there, and quit a lot of which we used over the years in Phil's campaign.

Espionage requires a deft and subtle touch to succeed, and a lot of very thoughtful thinking on the part of the players and GM.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 15, 2017, 01:41:57 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;957380
Wonderful, and a reason to go!

I got to thinking that it might be fun to apply the 'Little Wars' model to Barsoom, and as tiny laser pointers are really cheap...

Now all I have to do is make a half-dozen elevation gears with pointing wheels...

OMG!  Greatest game ever!  (Axman probably has cheap nylon gears...)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 15, 2017, 02:07:55 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;957411
Same as it has been done for centuries, with eyes and ears on the ground to find out what's going on and report back. The vast majority of what's referred to as 'tradecraft' does not need or require either sorcery or other things - if anything, these take the place of what are called 'technical means'. Especially as these are also pretty limited in range, unless you're an Undying Wizard. The vast majority of information gathering work in the Five Empires involves sending people to meetings, cultivating contacts, and information from sources. (Remember Lady Tsahul?) If you want to know more about this kind of thing, try Tom Clancy's Red Cardinal sub-series inside the Jack Ryan series. Quite a lot of very good tradecraft in there, and quit a lot of which we used over the years in Phil's campaign.

Espionage requires a deft and subtle touch to succeed, and a lot of very thoughtful thinking on the part of the players and GM.


Thank you Uncle. Any particular clans know for their adeptness at this sort of thing...?

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 15, 2017, 02:11:05 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;957416
Thank you Uncle. Any particular clans know for their adeptness at this sort of thing...?

H:0)

Ksarul worshipping-ones are bound to pop up in the answer to this, for is he not the one who deals in Secrets:)?
Also, I suspect, the priests of Karakan would be there. If you're not going for total slaughter, spies are the way to ensure you have all the tactical advantages you'd ever need;).
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 15, 2017, 02:14:06 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;957417
Ksarul worshipping-ones are bound to pop up in the answer to this, for is he not the one who deals in Secrets:)?
Also, I suspect, the priests of Karakan would be there. If you're not going for total slaughter, spies are the way to ensure you have all the tactical advantages you'd ever need;).

Lord Asen,

Thanks...

H;0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: AsenRG on April 15, 2017, 03:00:36 PM
Well, that's just my interpretation, mighty Hrugga, but I find it fun to try and see how often it would match the "canonical" one;)!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 15, 2017, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;957424
Well, that's just my interpretation, mighty Hrugga, but I find it fun to try and see how often it would match the "canonical" one;)!


Very Logical...That is always fun!!!

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 15, 2017, 05:03:19 PM
Quote from: Hrugga;957416
Thank you Uncle. Any particular clans know for their adeptness at this sort of thing...?

H:0)

No really; they all do it, and don't announce it to everyone. Me, I'd tend to agree with Asen, and go to the Ksarul clans, but then you'd be worried abut being able to trust them...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 15, 2017, 05:04:01 PM
Quote from: AsenRG;957417
Ksarul worshipping-ones are bound to pop up in the answer to this, for is he not the one who deals in Secrets:)?
Also, I suspect, the priests of Karakan would be there. If you're not going for total slaughter, spies are the way to ensure you have all the tactical advantages you'd ever need;).

Like I say, everybody does it. Some are more trust worthy then others, though.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 15, 2017, 05:26:03 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;957411
Same as it has been done for centuries, with eyes and ears on the ground to find out what's going on and report back. The vast majority of what's referred to as 'tradecraft' does not need or require either sorcery or other things - if anything, these take the place of what are called 'technical means'. Especially as these are also pretty limited in range, unless you're an Undying Wizard. The vast majority of information gathering work in the Five Empires involves sending people to meetings, cultivating contacts, and information from sources. (Remember Lady Tsahul?) If you want to know more about this kind of thing, try Tom Clancy's Red Cardinal sub-series inside the Jack Ryan series. Quite a lot of very good tradecraft in there, and quit a lot of which we used over the years in Phil's campaign.

Espionage requires a deft and subtle touch to succeed, and a lot of very thoughtful thinking on the part of the players and GM.


* takes off helmet and rubs temples * Chirine, have I ever said how much I hate covert ops?...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 15, 2017, 05:30:15 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;957445
* takes off helmet and rubs temples * Chirine, have I ever said how much I hate covert ops?...

Why yes, you have, my General, right about the moments that Jajal and Origo came screaming back over the hill with the objects of their 'covert' missions in Very Hot Pursuit... :rolleyes:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 15, 2017, 07:02:09 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;957447
Why yes, you have, my General, right about the moments that Jajal and Origo came screaming back over the hill with the objects of their 'covert' missions in Very Hot Pursuit... :rolleyes:


Go on please. Do tell what exactly was in pursuit...

Shemek.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 15, 2017, 07:25:37 PM
Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;957452
Go on please. Do tell what exactly was in pursuit...

Shemek.

Well, let's see...

Yan Koryani, Mu'uglavyani, Salarvyani, Tsolyani, Livyani, Milumaniyani, Pechani, Mihalli, Killumaniyani, Ssu, Hlyss, Haida Pakallans. This is not the entire list, just what I can think of off the top of my head.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 15, 2017, 08:08:36 PM
The noise of their passage would have waked the dead, were they not bringing up the rear.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 15, 2017, 09:23:59 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;957445
* takes off helmet and rubs temples * Chirine, have I ever said how much I hate covert ops?...


Which is worse? Covert ops or deserts...?

H:0)

PS Glorious General what then is good in life...?
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on April 18, 2017, 02:50:26 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;956490
Yes, we did. Bednjallan times, Engsvanyali times, and Classical Tsolyanu - about 500 years before present - are all ones that spring instantly to mind.

No, it hasn't really come up, before.

Such a shame there's not a Bedjnallan History tome equivalent to the Engsvanyali one.  

Of course, I love the histories, so I devour that stuff.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 18, 2017, 05:22:11 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;957959
Such a shame there's not a Bedjnallan History tome equivalent to the Engsvanyali one.  

Of course, I love the histories, so I devour that stuff.

Agreed. There's a lot of the history that we'll never know for sure.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on April 18, 2017, 05:55:37 PM
A different observation.  It's weird how views and understandings change with time.  I've been trying to research Sarku's temple more carefully due to prominent potential NPCs in my game, and finding that... wow, I'm sorta 'getting' Sarku a lot more.  Like enough that I can definitely see the appeal of his worship amongst the common folk outside of the typical "Woohoo I wanna be undead" sorts, and indeed, ignoring ever doing that.

My initial impressions were definitely formed by first reads of the novels, sourcebook, and Mitlanyal back in college.   But over a decade later, it's definitely different.

Of course, reading the novels again might change that right back when Dhic'hune shows up...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on April 19, 2017, 08:58:38 AM
Quote from: Dulahan;957959
Such a shame there's not a Bedjnallan History tome equivalent to the Engsvanyali one.


Then write one!

It'd be a fun project, and a useful one. I know I would enjoy reading it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 19, 2017, 05:34:57 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;958011
A different observation.  It's weird how views and understandings change with time.  I've been trying to research Sarku's temple more carefully due to prominent potential NPCs in my game, and finding that... wow, I'm sorta 'getting' Sarku a lot more.  Like enough that I can definitely see the appeal of his worship amongst the common folk outside of the typical "Woohoo I wanna be undead" sorts, and indeed, ignoring ever doing that.

My initial impressions were definitely formed by first reads of the novels, sourcebook, and Mitlanyal back in college.   But over a decade later, it's definitely different.

Of course, reading the novels again might change that right back when Dhic'hune shows up...

Agreed. Originally, the Sarku people were all pretty much cardboard targets / generic bad guys; over time, like everything else, we learned a lot more nuanced things - and had a lot more nuanced play, as a result.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 19, 2017, 05:35:43 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;958123
Then write one!

It'd be a fun project, and a useful one. I know I would enjoy reading it.

Agreed; plenty of materials in the files, scattered around all of the texts...
Title: New figures from Dark Fable
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 19, 2017, 05:40:30 PM
The "Legend of Cleopatra" Indiegogo is now up and running:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-legend-of-cleopatra-fantasy#/ (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-legend-of-cleopatra-fantasy#/)

We'll backing this one as we have the previous ones - all sorts of useful people and fantastical beasts... :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on April 20, 2017, 11:01:55 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;958211
Agreed. Originally, the Sarku people were all pretty much cardboard targets / generic bad guys; over time, like everything else, we learned a lot more nuanced things - and had a lot more nuanced play, as a result.

Was kinda what I was hoping to do with the Sarku Shrine the PCs stumbled upon in my game... then promptly ran from.  Then bowled over the NPC.  They were gonna get invited to take part in a Dark Trinity Ritual, but nooooo, Brave Sir Robin...

Now I guess they'll just run into her at a party or festival or something and she might recognize one of them and things get awkward.  Especially when she's standing there with her Ito Clan betrothed...

But yeah, I sort of like the idea that their main goal is to 'witness' things.  They want to see it all.  It's like this one thing I read once somewhere (I think it was someone's post on another board in a conversation about whether you'd want immortality or clinical immortality) which said roughly, "I want to be there to watch it when the last star fades out.  And then I want to kick back in my easy chair with a glass of wine and think back on what a wonderful ride it was."

And you know what?  That's a viewpoint I totally agree with.  If I could be healthy of body and do that, I'd want to.  I want to see it all through the ages.  So knowing that really helped me grok Sarku worshippers.  At least I think so!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;958212
Agreed; plenty of materials in the files, scattered around all of the texts...

That sounds like a hell of a project.  Especially when one doesn't have access to the files and texts.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 20, 2017, 01:59:35 PM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;958214
The "Legend of Cleopatra" Indiegogo is now up and running:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-legend-of-cleopatra-fantasy#/ (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-legend-of-cleopatra-fantasy#/)

We'll backing this one as we have the previous ones - all sorts of useful people and fantastical beasts... :)

Phil would love these.  Heck, you can fill out a couple of Avanthe legions at least.

And the monsters are great, as are the "Really Truly NOT CONAN Figures!  Honest!"
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on April 20, 2017, 06:37:26 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;958372
That sounds like a hell of a project.  Especially when one doesn't have access to the files and texts.

Well, it's true you can just throw up your hands and say it can't be done, but I think that kind of defeatism is not only unseemly, but unnecessary.

Like many (most?) of us, I once imagined that the Professor's files held a wealth of previously unpublished Tekumel lore, but it has become very clear over the last five years that that simply isn't the case, and there is much less there than meets the eye.

On the one hand, there really isn't much there there. There are few crown jewels. Early drafts of familiar  publications sure, but not much that is truly new to us.

On the other hand, the snippets of unpublished knowledge that may be scattered around in there clearly aren't going to see the light of day. Not anytime soon, if ever.

In effect, we already know most everything we will ever know about the setting.

Therefore, if you want a Bednalljan history, look at what you already have and begin there. EPT and the Sourcebook describe the beginning, Nayari and her successors. The Engsvanyali history describes the Tarishande dynasty and the end of the First Imperium. Everything in between is a bit of a mystery, but tabletop RPG is SUPPOSED to be a creative hobby, right? So create. There'll be bits and bobs in Deeds of the Ever-glorious, maybe in the Blue Room archive, but really you have to flesh out the rest yourself. Why wait for revelations from the Professor that will never come? If you love the setting but you are troubled by the gaps, then just write something up and fill them.

Done and done.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Gronan of Simmerya on April 20, 2017, 07:53:42 PM
Quote from: Zirunel;958438
Well, it's true you can just throw up your hands and say it can't be done, but I think that kind of defeatism is not only unseemly, but unnecessary.

Like many (most?) of us, I once imagined that the Professor's files held a wealth of previously unpublished Tekumel lore, but it has become very clear over the last five years that that simply isn't the case, and there is much less there than meets the eye.

On the one hand, there really isn't much there there. There are few crown jewels. Early drafts of familiar  publications sure, but not much that is truly new to us.

On the other hand, the snippets of unpublished knowledge that may be scattered around in there clearly aren't going to see the light of day. Not anytime soon, if ever.

In effect, we already know most everything we will ever know about the setting.

Therefore, if you want a Bednalljan history, look at what you already have and begin there. EPT and the Sourcebook describe the beginning, Nayari and her successors. The Engsvanyali history describes the Tarishande dynasty and the end of the First Imperium. Everything in between is a bit of a mystery, but tabletop RPG is SUPPOSED to be a creative hobby, right? So create. There'll be bits and bobs in Deeds of the Ever-glorious, maybe in the Blue Room archive, but really you have to flesh out the rest yourself. Why wait for revelations from the Professor that will never come? If you love the setting but you are troubled by the gaps, then just write something up and fill them.

Done and done.

That works, provided that when people complain it's not "real" Tekumel you simply have the self confidence to tell them to go fuck themselves.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on April 20, 2017, 08:20:48 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;958447
That works, provided that when people complain it's not "real" Tekumel you simply have the self confidence to tell them to go fuck themselves.

Totally agree. "Real Tekumel" is as out there as it will ever be. There won't be much more, if any. So the complainers don't actually have very much to throw at you.

 The rest is gaps. Gaps that will be filled by "Your Tekumel." Be clear that your Tekumel is your Tekumel. Issue a disclaimer to that effect, whatever, but don't hesitate to stand up for Your Tekumel. Create it, make it yours, share it. You love it, right? So have the confidence to stand up for your take on it.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on April 21, 2017, 06:58:26 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;958438
Well, it's true you can just throw up your hands and say it can't be done, but I think that kind of defeatism is not only unseemly, but unnecessary.

Like many (most?) of us, I once imagined that the Professor's files held a wealth of previously unpublished Tekumel lore, but it has become very clear over the last five years that that simply isn't the case, and there is much less there than meets the eye.

On the one hand, there really isn't much there there. There are few crown jewels. Early drafts of familiar  publications sure, but not much that is truly new to us.

On the other hand, the snippets of unpublished knowledge that may be scattered around in there clearly aren't going to see the light of day. Not anytime soon, if ever.

In effect, we already know most everything we will ever know about the setting.

That's really interesting and important information. Thanks for sharing that.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on April 21, 2017, 10:50:07 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;958513
That's really interesting and important information. Thanks for sharing that.

Um...you're welcome, but please understand, my characterization of the Professors archives is more "impression" than "information. "

It's based on things Chirine has told us, and also (reading between the lines a little) what the Foundation implies about the collection and what they have to work with.

My sense is that the Professor's papers would be ideal source materials for a biography of the man, and maybe for a history of the creation and evolution of Tekumel in his imagination, but there isn't much there that would significantly expand his creation beyond what has already been published.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on April 21, 2017, 01:08:41 PM
Unless chirine has The Professor's head in a jar in his basement. :eek:

Maybe that "chirine ba kal you have gone native" applies and he is a secret Sarku worshiper?
:D
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 21, 2017, 06:17:48 PM
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;958397
Phil would love these.  Heck, you can fill out a couple of Avanthe legions at least.

And the monsters are great, as are the "Really Truly NOT CONAN Figures!  Honest!"


Agreed; I think he would have been all over them in a minute. Have you looked at the Dark Fable website? All the people we used to run into at the better sort of parties are there, along with the required fan-bearers and trumpet-tooters that Phil loved so much to put on the table.

If I may digress into my philosophy of gaming, figures like this don't 'ruin my immersion' when I play; they, instead, inspire me to dream of gods and heroes and their (mis)adventures. I look at them, and stories start to write themselves; adventures occur, and - as I am wont to say - mayhem ensues.

Just wait'll you see what I'm cooking up to go with the Dark Fable miniatures... :eek:
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 21, 2017, 06:27:15 PM
Quote from: Greentongue;958593
Unless chirine has The Professor's head in a jar in his basement. :eek:

Maybe that "chirine ba kal you have gone native" applies and he is a secret Sarku worshiper?
:D
=

In a way, I do. I've been told by quite a few of the people who played with Phil and with me that I 'do Tekumel' better then he did; I think this is because he was a first-generation GM, and I'm a second-generation one with a lot of gameplay (read, "what works and what doesn't") under my belt. Plus, I have the resources inherent in having all of his files in my collection, as well as all of the material we and other people generated over the years. So, I do games with a certain style and panache, and with - I will admit - a certain flourish; I believe that Phil's creation, as well as the time we had with him, deserves no less. He once said to Dave Arneson "Chirine makes the most clever little miniatures!" and I try to keep that in mind.


Do I like what's happening? No, I don't; it's killing the dream that a lot of people had over the years. In my admittedly ignorable opinion, following Phil's advice in EPT and 'make Tekumel your own' is what will keep his dream alive.

And I will continue to do what I do, as one of my detractors once said, of "keeping the Tekumel flame alive"; next month, I have a group coming in to do research on the early days of gaming and play a little Tekumel. We'll see what happens, eh? :)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on April 22, 2017, 08:57:34 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;958555
My sense is that the Professor's papers would be ideal source materials for a biography of the man, and maybe for a history of the creation and evolution of Tekumel in his imagination (...).

Absolutely. I had the same thought the other day while reading the latest Tekumel Collecting blog post (http://tekumelcollecting.com/2017/04/08/growing-up-with-tekumel-early-writings-of-m-a-r-barker/).
Absolutely fascinating information. I'd buy a book filled with that sort of info (and more) in a heartbeat.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 22, 2017, 10:19:40 AM
Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;958749
Absolutely. I had the same thought the other day while reading the latest Tekumel Collecting blog post (http://tekumelcollecting.com/2017/04/08/growing-up-with-tekumel-early-writings-of-m-a-r-barker/).
Absolutely fascinating information. I'd buy a book filled with that sort of info (and more) in a heartbeat.


Most of the information is out there on-line; all you have to do is some deep digging, and you'll find it. Yes, I do answer some of those questions and point the way, but anybody with a bent for research can do this.

And no, I will not be the one writing the 'significant historical document' about this, either. I was told that I needed to change "To Serve The Petal Throne" from an account of some adventures into a Tekumel version of "Playing At The World" - with footnotes, lists, documents, etc. - and I simply balked. If some body wants to ask me questions and do their own book, I'm all for it.

When I went through all of Phil's files, paper and digital, I found exactly two Tekumel items that were entirely new to me - the draft of his 1950s novel and the last unfinished one. There is a lot of what to me is extremely fascinating materials that fill in some of the gaps and cracks in the published materials, and some really cool bits that really filled in some details about some things I'd wondered about. (Phil's letter files are a fascinating look int what he was thinking at the time, but as has been said, that's mostly biographical information.) It was being put about as part of the 1990s 'One True Tekumel' mythology that there were "filing cabinets full of the secrets of Tekumel", and that by supporting Barker's Own one could have access to that data.

Sorry; it wasn't true. What we have is what we have, and with Phil gone what we'll be seeing as 'new' material is what we - Tekumel's fans - can come up with based on our knowledge and love of Phil's creation. And in my mind, that's no bad thing.

Tekumel lives because of your adventures; that's the bare truth of it. Those of you who have slogged your way through TSTPT know about our adventures - now, run your own...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Zirunel on April 22, 2017, 12:40:48 PM
Quote from: Dulahan;958372
That sounds like a hell of a project.  Especially when one doesn't have access to the files and texts.

I apologize for my peevish response to this the other day.

 It is totally understandable that you would believe there was all this hidden knowledge, just waiting to be unlocked but sadly out of your reach.

Especially if, as Chirine says, there may be some out there who encourage that belief.

I remember the 90s (and even the 00s) and the paralysis that came with passively waiting for the next droplets of received wisdom to trickle out of Minneapolis. It drove me nuts then, I don't think it was "good" for Tekumel fandom or for Tekumel itself, and I would hate to see a return to that.

Hence my peevishness, but you are clearly someone who has, reads, and thinks about the source material, and you are actively playing, clearly not "paralyzed," so there was no need to direct my peevishness at you personally. Sorry.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 22, 2017, 01:12:39 PM
So I am currently reading the S&G sourcebook(not as quickly as I would like). I just wanted to mention(as has been done before) that there is so much there hidden in plain sight. References here and there for one to expand on. So if you do not all ready have a copy...get one!!! I also need to start looking into the Adventures on Tekumel books as well...I am trying not to be too lazy and ask Chirine about everything!!!
Though I know he always answers and points one in the right direction!!!

Enjoy Tekumel,

H:0)

PS I just figured I would remind myself(and others) of the wealth of information available and out there. Fantastic stuff!!! Not to mention the Book of Ebon Bindings for the supernatural...Dangerous!!!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: tekumelcollecting on April 22, 2017, 08:55:48 PM
There's a new post up on http://www.tekumelcollecting.com

This one is about Professor Barker's Tékumel novels.  Have a look!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Hrugga on April 22, 2017, 10:14:17 PM
Quote from: tekumelcollecting;958834
There's a new post up on http://www.tekumelcollecting.com

This one is about Professor Barker's Tékumel novels.  Have a look!

Thumbs up!!! Welcome. Great blog. Can't wait to see what's next...

H:0)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Marleycat on April 23, 2017, 04:44:53 AM
Why is this thread 600 pages long? All about nothing yet it's STILL going on. Even RPG.net used to stop any thread at 100 pages. Guess they changed it a bit because they have a seriously whack fetish for Exalted. But 600 pages of bullshit composed of multiple unrelated topics and discussion therein? Seriously disappointed with the actual direction of this this thread. So misleading and disappointing. Wow. I liked that name Chairine Ba Kal. I assumed it about some gay roleplayer and their experiences not some model builder from 1970. At least as far as I can care to tell from this convoluted abomination of a thread.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: chirine ba kal on April 23, 2017, 06:23:29 AM
Quote from: Marleycat;958894
Why is this thread 600 pages long? All about nothing yet it's STILL going on. Even RPG.net used to stop any thread at 100 pages. Guess they changed it a bit because they have a seriously whack fetish for Exalted. But 600 pages of bullshit composed of multiple unrelated topics and discussion therein? Seriously disappointed with the actual direction of this this thread. So misleading and disappointing. Wow. I liked that name Chairine Ba Kal. I assumed it about some gay roleplayer and their experiences not some model builder from 1970. At least as far as I can care to tell from this convoluted abomination of a thread.


Love your comments; I find the vast majority of threads on this and every other RPG site just as convoluted and pointless, full of people who are very full of themselves and pretty much the same kind of people I've had to put up with for the last four decades. So, it's nice to know that things have not changed a whit, over the years.

If you're disappointed, may I suggest contacting the Powers-that-be here and offering your time and energy to become the official moderator of this thread? That way, you can mold and shape the thing to be what you'd want it to be, instead of people simply asking me questions and my giving them what answers I can. I think it would certainly help organize things, and help you cope with your being mislead and disappointed.

As for the gay roleplayer part, can't help you with the throbbing manhood plunged between quivering thighs stuff; you'll have to go elsewhere for that - sorry!
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Neshm hiKumala on April 23, 2017, 08:03:57 AM
Quote from: Marleycat;958894
Why is this thread 600 pages long? All about nothing yet it's STILL going on. Even RPG.net used to stop any thread at 100 pages. Guess they changed it a bit because they have a seriously whack fetish for Exalted. But 600 pages of bullshit composed of multiple unrelated topics and discussion therein? Seriously disappointed with the actual direction of this this thread. So misleading and disappointing. Wow. I liked that name Chairine Ba Kal. I assumed it about some gay roleplayer and their experiences not some model builder from 1970. At least as far as I can care to tell from this convoluted abomination of a thread.

Commentator lets world peek inside his/her unhappy, helpless life; one, like many others, that is fueled by fear, of being left behind, of "not getting it", of his/her own limitations, and even, perhaps, of his own sexual proclivities.

Good luck.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: estar on April 23, 2017, 08:23:11 AM
Quote from: Marleycat;958894
Why is this


I am going to allow this post and Chirine response to stay but I am deleting Neshm response and any further response on this as off topic.

As for your concerns Marleycat I suggest you goto to this link and practice the exercises (https://www.understood.org/en/school-learning/partnering-with-childs-school/instructional-strategies/6-tips-for-helping-your-child-improve-reading-comprehension). If you fail to heed my advice I will mock you incessantly and change your tagline to Clueless Cat for failing to understanding simple English.

This is for everybody else, normally calling another poster or thread; stupid, idiotic, or any number of other choice insult is not grounds for any type of moderation. Most of us have been around the Internet enough to know how this type of thread works. If I have to spell it out I will. But I am going to go with the fact that you the reader has more than a 3 Intelligence in this regard.

Chirine if you ever start a part II let me know and I will close this thread.
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Greentongue on April 23, 2017, 08:53:08 AM
Quote from: tekumelcollecting;958834
There's a new post up on http://www.tekumelcollecting.com

This one is about Professor Barker's Tékumel novels.  Have a look!


===
"The Man of Gold and Flamesong read as novels, but the last three novels read like well-edited renditions of an RPG game, which is what they were."
===

chirine, how closely do these books follow the "actual play", if it is true they are "renditions of an RPG game"?

Was this the play group you were a part of or a combination of both groups?

Will your book expand on these or be in parallel?
=
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: GameDaddy on April 23, 2017, 09:11:14 AM
Quote from: estar;958912
I am going to allow this post and Chirine response to stay but I am deleting Neshm response and any further response on this as off topic.

As for your concerns Marleycat I suggest you goto to this link and practice the exercises (https://www.understood.org/en/school-learning/partnering-with-childs-school/instructional-strategies/6-tips-for-helping-your-child-improve-reading-comprehension). If you fail to heed my advice I will mock you incessantly and change your tagline to Clueless Cat for failing to understanding simple English.

This is for everybody else, normally calling another poster or thread; stupid, idiotic, or any number of other choice insult is not grounds for any type of moderation. Most of us have been around the Internet enough to know how this type of thread works. If I have to spell it out I will. But I am going to go with the fact that you the reader has more than a 3 Intelligence in this regard.

Chirine if you ever start a part II let me know and I will close this thread.


This doesn't seem to be the MarleyCat that I know and respect. This seems to be some other kind of marleycat, ...like maybe a sock puppet type of marleycat.

One of the things I like about having my own websites, is that I can check the IPs of visitors and determine where they originate from.  Even if they arrive incognito, or use a proxy, or a VPN, the IP of the originating web page request is unique and forms a signature that i can use, if not to personally identify the poster,  to verify the poster is consistently arriving from the same incognito network or location.

The Marley I knew never used to sign on here to mess with other RPG folks, but instead was interested in making her game better, and spent her time talking about  the games she liked to run and play. Marley, where are you? Where have you gone? What happened? Cynicism never seemed like your style...
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 23, 2017, 11:15:46 AM
Quote from: estar;958912
I am going to allow this post and Chirine response to stay but I am deleting Neshm response and any further response on this as off topic.

As for your concerns Marleycat I suggest you goto to this link and practice the exercises (https://www.understood.org/en/school-learning/partnering-with-childs-school/instructional-strategies/6-tips-for-helping-your-child-improve-reading-comprehension). If you fail to heed my advice I will mock you incessantly and change your tagline to Clueless Cat for failing to understanding simple English.

This is for everybody else, normally calling another poster or thread; stupid, idiotic, or any number of other choice insult is not grounds for any type of moderation. Most of us have been around the Internet enough to know how this type of thread works. If I have to spell it out I will. But I am going to go with the fact that you the reader has more than a 3 Intelligence in this regard.

Chirine if you ever start a part II let me know and I will close this thread.


My hat's off to you estar for a perfect response to an utterly pointless post. Even if this comment gets purged I'll still throw in my two cents worth.
 Too many threads on this forum have been derailed by persons who have petulantly taken a dislike to an element of the thread and have proceeded to post provocative things that ultimately cause the whole thing to crash and burn. Those of us who are active participants on this thread find it to be a fascinating and insightful look on a subject that we like. We are not demanding that everyone else join in the discussion, nor do we exclude those that pop in. Chirine is providing a tonne of information, and for those of us who are running Tekumel games, or that have an interest in the milieu, this is a valuable addition. Leave us alone in our quiet corner of the forum if you are not interested in what we are talking about. If you are interested pull up a chair and join in.

Shemek
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Shemek hiTankolel on April 23, 2017, 11:17:18 AM
Quote from: chirine ba kal;958903
Love your comments; I find the vast majority of threads on this and every other RPG site just as convoluted and pointless, full of people who are very full of themselves and pretty much the same kind of people I've had to put up with for the last four decades. So, it's nice to know that things have not changed a whit, over the years.

If you're disappointed, may I suggest contacting the Powers-that-be here and offering your time and energy to become the official moderator of this thread? That way, you can mold and shape the thing to be what you'd want it to be, instead of people simply asking me questions and my giving them what answers I can. I think it would certainly help organize things, and help you cope with your being mislead and disappointed.

As for the gay roleplayer part, can't help you with the throbbing manhood plunged between quivering thighs stuff; you'll have to go elsewhere for that - sorry!


This exactly.:D
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: Dulahan on April 23, 2017, 11:53:32 AM
Quote from: Zirunel;958774
I apologize for my peevish response to this the other day.

 It is totally understandable that you would believe there was all this hidden knowledge, just waiting to be unlocked but sadly out of your reach.

Especially if, as Chirine says, there may be some out there who encourage that belief.

I remember the 90s (and even the 00s) and the paralysis that came with passively waiting for the next droplets of received wisdom to trickle out of Minneapolis. It drove me nuts then, I don't think it was "good" for Tekumel fandom or for Tekumel itself, and I would hate to see a return to that.

Hence my peevishness, but you are clearly someone who has, reads, and thinks about the source material, and you are actively playing, clearly not "paralyzed," so there was no need to direct my peevishness at you personally. Sorry.

No sweat!  And really, my original comment was as much because I liked the Professor's Sourcebook style too, the frankly academic style way it was approached was nice.  Especially as somewhat of a failed academic myself. ;)  (Failed in no small part because I have some rather severe anxiety when it comes to writing long documents!  Which of course ties into the other reason I'd fail at writing a history of Bedjnalla)

Now, onto related...

Recently another game setting I enjoy (Legend of the Five Rings) has had some pretty major news.  And that as always happens with nerd-dom, has led to heated discussions, one of them how bad GMs will use the intricate social mores of said game to really screw over the PCs instead of easing them into it.  A problem perpetuated slightly be the early adventures having some pretty shaky scenarios.  Moral of the story?  Tekumel's sadly not alone in having jerk GMs that like lording their knowledge over things instead of remembering FUN is the point!  Nor does every player enjoy playing like that.

Thankfully, I am doing my best to ease. ;)
Title: Questioning chirine ba kal
Post by: RPGPundit on April 23, 2017, 12:25:10 PM
To be fair, though, 600 pages is a VERY long thread.

Guys, start a part II, link back to this one for historical reference! This is not a judgment about Chirine or anyone else here, only a statement on the length of the thread.