Quote from: David Johansen;939543I can never quite decide if creativity has always been uncommon and the smaller, grass-roots gaming community in the old days simply drew more creative people or if creativity has been eroded and stigmatized by a world with access to professionally produced media.

I'd lean to the former, myself, based on what I've seen over the years. As gaming - and fandom, etc. - have become more mainstreamed the people up at the end of the bell curve have been more and more marginalized. I saw the same thing happen in F/SF fandom convention-running, where the really good organizers and runners were swamped and finally forced out by the mediocre ones. Standards of what makes a convention successful have become much lower - the kind of thing that we tried very hard not to let happen in my time in the barrel are now commonplace. Which is one of the big reasons why I avoid conventions like the plague...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;939550Well, I'd make sure I had at least four reliable people I knew would show up; as you taught me lo the decades ago, "the best spontaneous demonstrations are carefully planned."  GaryCon might work, but in any case I'd have some plants.

More likely I'd find some eager, young, healthy, and not too bright young lad and convince him that HE wants to do this.  To quote Obi-Wan Kenobi, "I'm getting too old for this sort of thing."

Agreed. Stuff like this is a lot of work to prepare for and to stage, and the vast majority of people never seem to understand the amount of work it takes. Which is why I did my 'Event Guide' for people, to give them an idea of why I have certain requirements for my running games at events.

I don't do half-a-dozen pre-painted plastics and a battle mat, and it has gotten old trying to explain that to people.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;939552Reading the posts about travel made me think on the subject of "gifts" on Tekumel.  Traveling for the Temple, I might present the local guard squad with some fresher or more varied supplies than standard army chow, and/or make provisions for religious observances; traveling as a private citizen, I might invite the hereksa of that tower to dine with me that night; traveling as the Glorious General I might let the hereksa know that she will be favorably mentioned in my dispatches; etc.

Rewards can take many forms other than crude specie.

This! "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" works just fine...

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;939560This is interesting. So, what would you say the "correct" non-pecuniary inducement would be for the guard at the gate to the city who decides that the PC's are perfect for a shakedown, or the merchant that simply has nothing that the PC's are in need of, but might know someone who has what they are looking for (if only he could remember...), or the bureaucrat that is just too busy to deal with the party right now and tells them to come back tomorrow or next week, but is the only one that can sign off on a document the PC's absolutely need?

Shemek

1) Tip the guard while asking if they know of a good place to stay while one is in town. They'll get a commission, and you'll get in without hassle.

2) Buy something anyway, and ask for advice on what you really need. The merchant will appreciate your thoughtfulness, and will get a 'finder's fee' from the other merchant. They'll be much more interested in helping you.

3. Tip the clerk. The clerk will slip the document in with the expense vouchers, and you'll get what you need this afternoon. A polite thank you to the official, with a little gift, will also help out.

In my time, simply being 'social' was always the best way to deal with people. One does not simply walk into a shop and plunk down the cash; one arrives, is greeted and made comfortable, served refreshments, and a pleasant conversation is had about the weather, local festivals, one's relatives, anbd then eventually business may be done. it's all very low key and low-pressure, and something that a lot of gamers simply can't get their heads around. like haggling - see also "Casablanca"...

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;939600A bit late to the discussion but here in the UK various groups run what are known as Megagames but which are really Braunstein-a-likes. The organisers arrange a location, a scenario and a team of referees then gather players for a day's gaming. I played in quite a few over the years a Battle of Britain game at Sandhurst, a Morgan's Raid on Panama, a sci-fi invasion, a World War One game. All involve about 50-80 people and for a modest cost provide a day full of entertainment. They don't seem to have a problem in getting enough players together.

Megagame Makers
Megagame Society

Understood, but we're also talking about two very different gaming cultures. (See also the differences between UK and US model railway people.)

And keep in mind the geographical issues. The UK is the size of Minnesota; driving times are much, much longer here, which means that while the kind of gaming you mention does happen, I'd say that it is a largely an East Coast thing.

Quote from: nDervish;939607All too true.  It was probably three years ago now, after running a session of ACKS I was waiting for the bus and talking to one of my players, who was in his mid-to-late 20s and mostly experienced with 3eD&D/Pathfinder, about differences between early editions of D&D and what he was used to.  In the course of the conversation, I made passing references to TSR and Gygax, then, in both cases, had to double back and explain to him who they were.

Yep. Same here.

Quote from: AsenRG;939671Well, surely they have heard about the game those two designed, so you can replace the names with "the guys who designed D&D back before D&D existed"?
Of course, I'd understand the Major if he didn't want to play with people who lack interest in history...


And the best part is when people don't listen, but then they wonder about repeating the same mistakes over and over;).

1. Nope; didn't work. If it ain't Mike Mearls or another WotC person, it ain't. There is no D&D before WotC, just like there is no miniatures gaming before GW.

2. He'll play with anybody with half a brain. The issue is trying to get people to understand what their being offered.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;9396801) Tip the guard while asking if they know of a good place to stay while one is in town. They'll get a commission, and you'll get in without hassle.

2) Buy something anyway, and ask for advice on what you really need. The merchant will appreciate your thoughtfulness, and will get a 'finder's fee' from the other merchant. They'll be much more interested in helping you.

3. Tip the clerk. The clerk will slip the document in with the expense vouchers, and you'll get what you need this afternoon. A polite thank you to the official, with a little gift, will also help out.

In my time, simply being 'social' was always the best way to deal with people. One does not simply walk into a shop and plunk down the cash; one arrives, is greeted and made comfortable, served refreshments, and a pleasant conversation is had about the weather, local festivals, one's relatives, anbd then eventually business may be done. it's all very low key and low-pressure, and something that a lot of gamers simply can't get their heads around. like haggling - see also "Casablanca"...

Thanks Chirine! In my last game session the guys ran into 2 of the above situations and really muffed it. Ended up getting fleeced and making really stupid decisions. I was practically spoon feeding them at one point in the game. Strange, must have been something in the beer, as they all are very experienced players. One of those forest for the trees nights I guess.

 Shemek

Quote from: chirine ba kal;939683Yep. Same here.

Me too, last summer when I was talking to a 19? year old gamer. His exact words were "Who's that?" and his response after I told him was "Oh..."  

Shemek

Quote from: chirine ba kal;939682Understood, but we're also talking about two very different gaming cultures. (See also the differences between UK and US model railway people.)

And keep in mind the geographical issues. The UK is the size of Minnesota; driving times are much, much longer here, which means that while the kind of gaming you mention does happen, I'd say that it is a largely an East Coast thing.

The UK might be as small as Minnesota but the roads are to scale and with 64 million people driving 35 million cars the traffic density is such that speeds are  low and the time to travel anywhere is longer with each passing year. The time to travel 234 miles to the next convention i'm attending will be 4 hours, much of it on motorways/freeways where 50mph is often the best speed one can hope for. It takes me 40 minutes to do the less than 20 miles to the local hospital for an appointment so local travel along single lane roads is a big handicap to going anywhere round here.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;939680In my time, simply being 'social' was always the best way to deal with people. One does not simply walk into a shop and plunk down the cash; one arrives, is greeted and made comfortable, served refreshments, and a pleasant conversation is had about the weather, local festivals, one's relatives, anbd then eventually business may be done. it's all very low key and low-pressure, and something that a lot of gamers simply can't get their heads around. like haggling - see also "Casablanca"...

Entire generations have grown up with "instant" commerce and cannot relate to taking time and socializing.
So, if you include that, they don't relate to it and the game is "boring".
=

Quote from: chirine ba kal;9396841. Nope; didn't work. If it ain't Mike Mearls or another WotC person, it ain't. There is no D&D before WotC, just like there is no miniatures gaming before GW.

2. He'll play with anybody with half a brain. The issue is trying to get people to understand what their being offered.

Well, if we go by what Gronan saiys, that might be too high of a requirement;)!

More seriously, he has to explain what he's offering. I see how modesty might be an impediment to this, but then I also managed to overcome it:D!

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;939713Thanks Chirine! In my last game session the guys ran into 2 of the above situations and really muffed it. Ended up getting fleeced and making really stupid decisions. I was practically spoon feeding them at one point in the game. Strange, must have been something in the beer, as they all are very experienced players. One of those forest for the trees nights I guess.

 Shemek

You're welcome! This sort of thing became a reflex with us in Phil's campaign - see also "Chirine, you've gone native."

Give it time; they'll get it.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;939714Me too, last summer when I was talking to a 19? year old gamer. His exact words were "Who's that?" and his response after I told him was "Oh..."  

Shemek

Yep. I get the same thing. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;939744The UK might be as small as Minnesota but the roads are to scale and with 64 million people driving 35 million cars the traffic density is such that speeds are  low and the time to travel anywhere is longer with each passing year. The time to travel 234 miles to the next convention i'm attending will be 4 hours, much of it on motorways/freeways where 50mph is often the best speed one can hope for. It takes me 40 minutes to do the less than 20 miles to the local hospital for an appointment so local travel along single lane roads is a big handicap to going anywhere round here.

Agreed; I was being obscure, and what I should have said was that the population density of gamers is much lower here in the Midwest - probably higher on the East Coast. Gary Con is the nearest large (750-900+ people) at six hours away, a large miniatures event (500+) in Chicago at eight hours away. Locally, the single game convention has finally broken the 400+ barrier, but once again if one does not play the name brand games one does not play. It's very hard to get players for anything not 'name brand'; I think if we had a larger and more 'gaming-diverse' population, the good Major would get more players.

It's like at Gary Con, where the games starring the big names from TSR always sell out instantly - more of that 'name' and 'brand' recognition going on.

Sorry to hear about the traffic issues, by the way; I enjoyed driving over there during our visits. Rural driving was an eye-opener; motorways not so much.