Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936681Well, thanks.  I will confess my misadventures tended to be more situational... stairwell full of Pe Choi shit, anyone... and less being hoist by my own petard (how ARE you lads planning on getting that sheet of red gold out of here?)

Or cisterns full of Pe Choi poop, or trenches full of Pe Choi poop, or...

You think we detected a trend, there, my General? :rolleyes:

From AsenRG:
I abide by the same definition of inclusiveness, and intend to do so:).

Well, I guess I'm stupid or something, but what else is there? Back in our presumably less enlightened times, anybody was welcome unless they were a total dickhead as a person - and we did have a few of them - but that was it.

For some reason, I fail to be surprised...just a hunch, that.

Grona is a very canny player, and not prone to doing dumb things.

I agree on Ancient Egypt. Sometimes, I've wanted to put a fantasy land inspired by it in a homebrew setting, and see who would get the reference...

Nobody, probably. I remember the background of "Creatures of Light And Darkness" having to be explained to SF fans at a convention by the author...

But...Barsoom isn't "alien", Uncle! Like, at all. It's just not well-known, especially lately - but the concepts are familiar.
It's just that they've been scattered across genres...
Tell any modern player unfamiliar with Barsoom that it's "pulp swaschbuckling with air ships in a dying post-apocalyptic world that's hanging on the brink of a second apocalypse and where everyone is hoping it wouldn't happen for another thousand years at least, although nobody knows when it's actually going to happen, and how long the resources and the machines that help maintain life on the whole planet are going to last".
Watch them starting to ask the right questions;).
Or, even more simply, give them this link to a free PDF (works even better with the modern gamers that are used to reading manuals on settings and systems!)
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/119991/Under-the-Moons-of-Zoon
Tell them to read just the setting chapter (assuming you're not planning to use the system...all the 20 pages of it, I mean).
See how much would be left to explain.

I may have to try this. Mostly, all I get is blank looks from people.

Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));936714Ok. I had the feeling they might have greater resistance; the info about the ceramic and the artifacts though - great!

Yep; all our evidence on the subject was observational, usually made while running like hell or killing them as fast as we could.

The ceremet stuff was used for 'ordinary' objects; the really tough stuff was used for spaceship hulls; ain't nothing we had could get through that.

Funniest time we had in my campaign was when a guy stuck a power rod into his backpack. The party made him dig his own grave, then went through a very complicated process to get him back alive without being contaminated. Lots of laughs for everybody - at a safe distance, of course.

Quote from: d(sqrt(-1));936715Hm, never thought about that. Interesting to think about the scattering of the light as it came into the atmosphere and what that might tell you. OTOH it's a nice detail.

It's one of those little details that never seems to have been written down in any of the relevant publications, but did come up in play with the two of them. I liked it, myself; made for a bit more 'flavor' in the game sessions...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;936769From AsenRG:
Well, I guess I'm stupid or something, but what else is there? Back in our presumably less enlightened times, anybody was welcome unless they were a total dickhead as a person - and we did have a few of them - but that was it.

It seems that mostly there's a total confusion of terms, but let's drop that topic at that:).

QuoteGrona is a very canny player, and not prone to doing dumb things.

That was what the hunch said, too.

QuoteI agree on Ancient Egypt. Sometimes, I've wanted to put a fantasy land inspired by it in a homebrew setting, and see who would get the reference...

Nobody, probably. I remember the background of "Creatures of Light And Darkness" having to be explained to SF fans at a convention by the author...

That kinda surprises me. It was quite obvious to me and my high school friends when the book was translated, to the point that we commented whether it was appropriate to show strength by fist punches, when it obviously comes to Egyptian gods - wrestling was more appropriate, I claimed;).

QuoteI may have to try this. Mostly, all I get is blank looks from people.

Well, at the very least it would be an interesting experiment.
But the elements of Barsoom are still used today, so do tell us how it went!

Quote from: AsenRG;936816That kinda surprises me. It was quite obvious to me and my high school friends when the book was translated, to the point that we commented whether it was appropriate to show strength by fist punches, when it obviously comes to Egyptian gods - wrestling was more appropriate, I claimed;).

Well, at the very least it would be an interesting experiment.
But the elements of Barsoom are still used today, so do tell us how it went!

In my forty years in the field, I've found that while F/SF fans and their off-spring, gamers, are astonishingly uninformed and downright ignorant of much of what might be considered 'wider knowledge'. Yes, quite a few of them are experts and masters of trivia in their chosen area of interest, but anything wider then that they simply have no clue about.

One example was the miniatures gamer who raked me over the coals about the range and rate of fire of the weapon of one of the legions (IX of the First Palace, 'Long Arrow') as he assumed that Phil and I were referring to the classic Anglo-Welsh 'longbow', and that we had our stats all wrong. I pointed out that Phil had clearly stated that this weapon was based on the Turkish composite longbow. and that the data we'd used was taken from actual firing trials done by Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey, and written up in his wonderful book "The Crossbow". The guy pitched a fit; he'd never heard of the book, and refused to believe that it existed; he was certain that we were making all of this up, as he'd never read the book himself.

I sometimes despair, I really do.

I'll see what happens, and let you know.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;936881I pointed out that Phil had clearly stated that this weapon was based on the Turkish composite longbow. and that the data we'd used was taken from actual firing trials done by Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey, and written up in his wonderful book "The Crossbow". The guy pitched a fit; he'd never heard of the book, and refused to believe that it existed; he was certain that we were making all of this up, as he'd never read the book himself.

I sometimes despair, I really do.

To be nostalgic for the days when it would have been the giggling hooks for such a littermate of drones.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;936889To be nostalgic for the days when it would have been the giggling hooks for such a littermate of drones.

Yep. These days, if you can't find it in a game book, it doesn't exist, and by gum no amount of facts will change my mind, no sireebob!

Ah, me. Different times, different play styles.

Thought of you this afternoon, my General; went out to the pre-post-Christmas sales to get more brickwork and cobblestone sheets (at 70% off, no less!) and then ran "A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum" while I flattened out the rolled-up vinyl sheets. They don't make game sessions like that anymore, I suspect...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;936881In my forty years in the field, I've found that while F/SF fans and their off-spring, gamers, are astonishingly uninformed and downright ignorant of much of what might be considered 'wider knowledge'. Yes, quite a few of them are experts and masters of trivia in their chosen area of interest, but anything wider then that they simply have no clue about.

One example was the miniatures gamer who raked me over the coals about the range and rate of fire of the weapon of one of the legions (IX of the First Palace, 'Long Arrow') as he assumed that Phil and I were referring to the classic Anglo-Welsh 'longbow', and that we had our stats all wrong. I pointed out that Phil had clearly stated that this weapon was based on the Turkish composite longbow. and that the data we'd used was taken from actual firing trials done by Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey, and written up in his wonderful book "The Crossbow". The guy pitched a fit; he'd never heard of the book, and refused to believe that it existed; he was certain that we were making all of this up, as he'd never read the book himself.

I sometimes despair, I really do.

I'll see what happens, and let you know.

I understand the feeling. What happened to the ideal of "the Renaissance Man", educated in many subjects:)?
And why are people with hobbies predicated on specialised knowledge (like SF) so willing to remain ignorant of basic facts? It boggles the mind, to borrow one of your phrases.

Then again, there was one article from long ago that I always remember when I don't like how things work. It had the line "setting an example is the only way to change the world".
So I try to do that to the best of my ability, and let the others decide whether they want to follow. Luckily for me, people closest to me are the kind that always try to learn, so I meet understanding:p.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;936903Yep. These days, if you can't find it in a game book, it doesn't exist, and by gum no amount of facts will change my mind, no sireebob!

Ah, me. Different times, different play styles.

That's always been a point of disconnect between me and the wider gaming community. To me, if the rulebook contradicts actual books on the subject, it's the rulebook that needs to be amended. I like GURPS because the system's books, while heavy, reflect almost insane amounts of research.
To some people, it seems only game manuals matter, as you say.
Luckily, I'm seeing less and less of that lately. Whether the newest generation is more open or it's me who's filtering such people more efficiently, I can't tell. I sure hope it's the former, but fear the latter;).

Quote from: AsenRG;936905I understand the feeling. What happened to the ideal of "the Renaissance Man", educated in many subjects:)?
And why are people with hobbies predicated on specialised knowledge (like SF) so willing to remain ignorant of basic facts? It boggles the mind, to borrow one of your phrases.

Then again, there was one article from long ago that I always remember when I don't like how things work. It had the line "setting an example is the only way to change the world".
So I try to do that to the best of my ability, and let the others decide whether they want to follow. Luckily for me, people closest to me are the kind that always try to learn, so I meet understanding:p.


That's always been a point of disconnect between me and the wider gaming community. To me, if the rulebook contradicts actual books on the subject, it's the rulebook that needs to be amended. I like GURPS because the system's books, while heavy, reflect almost insane amounts of research.
To some people, it seems only game manuals matter, as you say.
Luckily, I'm seeing less and less of that lately. Whether the newest generation is more open or it's me who's filtering such people more efficiently, I can't tell. I sure hope it's the former, but fear the latter;).

Yes; agreed. I know I'm filtering people by no longer organizing game groups or convention shows; letting other people to that, so that they can have their version of reality imposed on things, has saved me a lot of stress and work over the past year. As Gronan says, no gaming is better then bad gaming, and I agree with that.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;936903Yep. These days, if you can't find it in a game book, it doesn't exist, and by gum no amount of facts will change my mind, no sireebob!

Ah, me. Different times, different play styles.

Thought of you this afternoon, my General; went out to the pre-post-Christmas sales to get more brickwork and cobblestone sheets (at 70% off, no less!) and then ran "A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum" while I flattened out the rolled-up vinyl sheets. They don't make game sessions like that anymore, I suspect...

* envy *

"Woo meeks the souse of Meekus Laycus?"

"HOLD, SIR!"

"Moo weeks the moose of..."

"YOU'RE NOT HOLDING, SIR!"

Quote from: AsenRG;936905To me, if the rulebook contradicts actual books on the subject, it's the rulebook that needs to be amended. I like GURPS because the system's books, while heavy, reflect almost insane amounts of research.

Oh CROM'S hairy nutsack, yes!  As somebody who actually likes studying historical medieval armor, the crap that appears on the web now, the regurgitated third and fourth hand shit cribbed out of second rate computer game manuals and passed off as actual information, makes me want to puke so hard blood squirts out my ass!

The problem is that some people can't back down when they're wrong.  Their self esteem (or warped variant thereof) is too tied to their 'expertise' so they rise to any challenge rather than listening, asking questions, and analysing.  There's also a real tendency among the present generation to try claiming that they've read a book when they've clearly only seen the movie.  Then there's the agreeing and nodding sagely when they clearly know nothing about the subject and later repeating the information and pretending they discovered it on their own.

But the basic issue is that new gamers come from video games these days and haven't read a damn thing.

I did have two guys in my store nearly come to blows over the Arab Israeli War.  One had read a lot of books and played (solitaire) a few wargames. The other had served in the Canadian armed forces and spent time in Israel and had talked with veterans of the war.  Neither one could respect the type of knowledge the other had thought I think both had useful information.  The problem was their egos, I'm sure the war could manage without either of them.

A Merry Christmas to all!!!

H:0)

Merry Christmas everyone!

Shemek.