Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;934430Chirine,

Before finding this thread I had no know idea how heavily influenced Tekumel was by Flash Gordon, Barsoom, et al. Funny enough, when I read MoG and FS for the first time Yul Brynner and Ming the Merciless popped into my head whenever the Baron Ald or Lord Fu Shi'i, respectively, were being discussed.  I still picture Lord Fu Shi'i as Charles Middleton.
I recently went back and watched a lot of the films that you have recommended and tried to spot the influences on Tsolyanu and Tekumel . You are bang on when you say they inspired Phil. The original Thief of Baghdad (1924) could easily be part of  a Tekumel campaign. The same with Haji Baba, Ben Hur, The Ten Commandments and Land of the Pharaohs, as well as parts of the original Mummy and Wizard of Oz. I could easily see Nyelmu's guards in the Garden of the Weeping Snows being inspired by the Winkies (the Wicked Witch of the West's guards). In all of these movies I see stuff that could easily be used in a Tekumel game. An important NPC in my game is heavily modelled on Ahmed (Douglas Fairbanks' character), right down to the gestures and stunts. Great resources to mine for when trying to create a good Tekumel ambience for a campaign, as far as I'm concerned.
I'm currently enjoying a 13 part Flash Gordon serial from 1936 on You Tube: Flash Gordon and the Planet of Terror. Great stuff! Tonnes of inspiration.

Shemek.

Wonderful! You're following in Phil's footsteps, here! I got a very real appreciation for early F/SF from Phil; it's what he'd been reading and watching when he was a kid, and then built on when he went to South Asia.

For example, I knew nothing about the '39 Fair, what with the Trylon and Perisphere, until Phil talked about how he saw 'The Future'. There's a direct link with "Space Viking" by Piper, as the vast majority of Phil's starships were spherical, while the in-system ships - the 'landers' were classic Deco 'towers'.

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Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;934431Baron Ald in a quiet moment, plotting his next move against Tsolyanu.

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Shemek

Sure does look like him, doesn't it!

From AsenRG:
Oh, my, isn't that a classical reason:D!

She was very, very much all about her social prestige and position in society. (Still is, too.) I was merely a fashion accessory, like a name brand hanbag or pair of shoes.

I wanted to say "do they ever care about legalities"... (Unlike people around here, I'm lucky to add).
Of course, your father did it right according to the Tsolyani way! In a way, even the circumstances of your birh were Tsolyani-styled...

Agreed. The Tsolyani do care about some things, very much, but they are different things then what we'd deem important. Which made Tekumel so alien to us Midwestern Americans, back in the day...

In a way, that's also totally Tsolyani. Just substitute the captain for an OAL agent;).

Very much so. When I told Phil the story, he laughed until he cried. He and my dad got along quite well.

I'd suggest, in turn, doing a search for "Art Deco Streamline Moderne".
I just did, and my players are going to hate the next Underworld expedition to an unknown location. Though I was just looking at tables...

Yep. It'll be an eye-opener for them, that's for sure.

Phil, it seems, liked "softer" Sci-Fi, focusing more on what humans do with technology. In a way, he knew what humans do with technology in situations where it's a scarce resource - from his years in South Asia...so it was more or less a story to him, with the PCs as the "wild cards".

The fans, it seems, wanted "harder" Sci-Fi, focusing on how technology works, and what it does to humans. And they had no such background to fall back on, so to them, it was an exploration "what you can do with this".

Two viewpoints, informed by different life experiences, coming into a clash...what more can one say?

Their views on Barsoom and the like, though, were totally outrageous!

Agreed. Phil liked the F/SF he'd grown up with, where the hardware was there to serve the plot and the characters, not the be-all and end-all of the thing.

It just got old for him to get the letters, phone calls, and visits and then be told that the way he was running his creation was all wrong, and not 'serious' F/SF. Never got that from the pro authors, just from the 'serious' fans.

Quote from: David Johansen;934452Science fiction writers and fans spent the late sixties and early seventies trying very hard to be a serious, adult, form of entertainment.  Then Star Wars came along and proved that all sf really needed to be embraced by the general public was Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon with a better special effects budget.  I have mixed feelings about it.  I'm not fond of intellectualism to the exclusion of fun or anti-intellectualism to the exclusion of reason.  But I am a big fan of Isaac Asimov, Larry Niven, and Robert Heinlein.  Clarke's always left me cold for some reason.  I've read a lot of Asimov's essays and I think he makes some good points against Star Wars and Battle Star Galactica, "how do they get people into these one man death traps?"

But there will always be people who struggle with the idea that these things are childish.  There will always be those who try to raise their fun to an art and look down on those who do not.  Really, that might be a strong argument for gaming being an art form.  If it stops being fun it just might be art.

Agreed, and very well put. Based on what I see at the local FLGS, Gygax and Arneson would have no place in today's fandom or gaming. They just weren't 'serious' enough.

Quote from: David Johansen;934452If it stops being fun it just might be art.

Good point!
=

Quote from: David Johansen;934452Really, that might be a strong argument for gaming being an art form.  If it stops being fun it just might be art.

No, if games stop being fun, you stop playing them, because they suck:).
And you move to better games;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;934465From AsenRG:
Oh, my, isn't that a classical reason:D!

she was very, very much all about her social prestige and position in society. (Still is, too.) I was merely a fashion accessory, like a name brand hanbag or pair of shoes.

Yeah, that's why I said "classical". I've known such women, myself, and there's a couple NPCs I modeled after them over the years...

QuoteI wanted to say "do they ever care about legalities"... (Unlike people around here, I'm lucky to add).
Of course, your father did it right according to the Tsolyani way! In a way, even the circumstances of your birh were Tsolyani-styled...

Agreed. The Tsolyani do care about some things, very much, but they are different things then what we'd deem important. Which made Tekumel so alien to us Midwestern Americans, back in the day...

Yeah, but I find it increasingly funny that the things I care about align better with the Tsolyani POV than the "modern American"...at least in this case.

QuoteIn a way, that's also totally Tsolyani. Just substitute the captain for an OAL agent;).
Very much so. When I told Phil the story, he laughed until he cried. He and my dad got along quite well.

I fail to be surprised at them seeing eye to eye...

QuoteI'd suggest, in turn, doing a search for "Art Deco Streamline Moderne".
I just did, and my players are going to hate the next Underworld expedition to an unknown location. Though I was just looking at tables...

Yep. It'll be an eye-opener for them, that's for sure.

Oh, they know the style better than me, I suspect. What they might not be expecting is me using it.

QuotePhil, it seems, liked "softer" Sci-Fi, focusing more on what humans do with technology. In a way, he knew what humans do with technology in situations where it's a scarce resource - from his years in South Asia...so it was more or less a story to him, with the PCs as the "wild cards".

The fans, it seems, wanted "harder" Sci-Fi, focusing on how technology works, and what it does to humans. And they had no such background to fall back on, so to them, it was an exploration "what you can do with this".

Two viewpoints, informed by different life experiences, coming into a clash...what more can one say?

Their views on Barsoom and the like, though, were totally outrageous!

Agreed. Phil liked the F/SF he'd grown up with, where the hardware was there to serve the plot and the characters, not the be-all and end-all of the thing.

Well, in a way, Tekumel is "inversed serious SF".
Serious SF deals with the question how scientific progress will impact us.
Tekumel is a matter of how scientific regress and lack of raw materials might impact us.

QuoteIt just got old for him to get the letters, phone calls, and visits and then be told that the way he was running his creation was all wrong, and not 'serious' F/SF. Never got that from the pro authors, just from the 'serious' fans.

I have some magical words for theses cases that he was probably too well-educated to use to their full effect: "Get lost!"

Quote from: chirine ba kal;934462Wonderful! You're following in Phil's footsteps, here! I got a very real appreciation for early F/SF from Phil; it's what he'd been reading and watching when he was a kid, and then built on when he went to South Asia.

For example, I knew nothing about the '39 Fair, what with the Trylon and Perisphere, until Phil talked about how he saw 'The Future'. There's a direct link with "Space Viking" by Piper, as the vast majority of Phil's starships were spherical, while the in-system ships - the 'landers' were classic Deco 'towers'.

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I don't think the link works. Get an error message when I click on it.:confused:

I've been using things from the '39 Fair from when you first pointed this out as an inspiration for Tekumel. Another great resource to mine from.

Shemek

From AsenRG:
No, if games stop being fun, you stop playing them, because they suck:).
And you move to better games;).

Agreed. Gaming hasn't been fun for a long while, so I stopped. Haven't found anything better yet, so I just keep on building my models. Which is what I like, anyway.

Yeah, that's why I said "classical". I've known such women, myself, and there's a couple NPCs I modeled after them over the years...

Yep. It's probably why I find such people tiresome and irrelevant.

Yeah, but I find it increasingly funny that the things I care about align better with the Tsolyani POV than the "modern American"...at least in this case.

True; so do I. As Phil once said, "Chirine. you've gone native."

I fail to be surprised at them seeing eye to eye...



Oh, they know the style better than me, I suspect. What they might not be expecting is me using it.

That will be a surprise! I wonder how they'll handle it?

Well, in a way, Tekumel is "inversed serious SF".
Serious SF deals with the question how scientific progress will impact us.
Tekumel is a matter of how scientific regress and lack of raw materials might impact us.

Interesting observation; I usually describe Tekumel as classic '40s and '50s F/SF, but I do think you're right here.

I have some magical words for theses cases that he was probably too well-educated to use to their full effect: "Get lost!"

In most cases, once he'd had enough they got his standard form letter that said, in effect: "You do what you want in your Tekumel and I'll do what I want in mine" and usually they'd drift off into the aether. I do the same thing myself, these days, with people who insist that I need to change my views, opinions, or games to fit into what they insist is what they need to see in their lives.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;934486I don't think the link works. Get an error message when I click on it.:confused:

I've been using things from the '39 Fair from when you first pointed this out as an inspiration for Tekumel. Another great resource to mine from.

Shemek

You weren't missing anything; it was a poster from the '39 Fair. I reloaded it, and it might work now.

Oh, yes! There's even a really cool video out there, showing color 'home movies' from the fair, and it's really cool and a great source for ideas.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;934522You weren't missing anything; it was a poster from the '39 Fair. I reloaded it, and it might work now.

Oh, yes! There's even a really cool video out there, showing color 'home movies' from the fair, and it's really cool and a great source for ideas.

I see it now. Thank you!

Shemek

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;934525I see it now. Thank you!

Shemek

As a kid, my dad was able to go to the 1933 Worlds Fair in Chicago. Not quite the same Raymond Massey "Shapes of things" deco stylistic sensibility as in 1939, but the same shock of the new mentality, and the same slew of really bad, dangerous, don't do this at home ideas that were nowhere near ready for prime time. One thing I remember him describing was this, I guess it was a microwave grill, in the "homes of the future" area. Microwave grill. Honestly. My dad lived a good long life, but he was only a spectator. Sometimes I wonder about the poor guy who was demonstrating it. Probably paid 25¢ a day to lean over the darn thing for hours at a time cooking steaks. I wonder how long he lived after the fair was over.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;934525I see it now. Thank you!

Shemek

You're welcome! With my slow and unreliable Internet connection, I never can tell from here if something loaded or not. Having that extra set of eyes is very helpful!

Quote from: Zirunel;934527As a kid, my dad was able to go to the 1933 Worlds Fair in Chicago. Not quite the same Raymond Massey "Shapes of things" deco stylistic sensibility as in 1939, but the same shock of the new mentality, and the same slew of really bad, dangerous, don't do this at home ideas that were nowhere near ready for prime time. One thing I remember him describing was this, I guess it was a microwave grill, in the "homes of the future" area. Microwave grill. Honestly. My dad lived a good long life, but he was only a spectator. Sometimes I wonder about the poor guy who was demonstrating it. Probably paid 25¢ a day to lean over the darn thing for hours at a time cooking steaks. I wonder how long he lived after the fair was over.

Oh, wonderful story - except for the guy frying himself in front of the presumably unshielded radio transmitter, of course.

Phil's 'future' was just chock full of stuff like this, where if you didn't know what we were doing - and we didn't, of course! - you'd get really dead really fast.

Spent a lovely day working on the big Sakbe road set's large tower while doing the laundry, getting the battlement walls all done and figuring out how to do the ones on the little watchtowers. Had one of the Missus' late birthday gifts on the huge screen in the game room while I worked, the recent "Hercules" movie; lots of fun, and shows what happens when you attack formed bodies of infantry. Very enjoyable film, and I'm a little surprised it didn't get more notice and attention.

The other tardy gift that arrived is an amazing little camera set that's basically a three-meter long cable with a lens on the end. Hooks up to the tablet or the computer, and (as the Missus said) "It was only six bucks and now you can do views of the insides of your model buildings for people!"

Brings a new dimension to "I look around the corner of the door; what do I see..."

Have I mentioned just how much I appreciate her?

Quote from: Zirunel;934527As a kid, my dad was able to go to the 1933 Worlds Fair in Chicago. Not quite the same Raymond Massey "Shapes of things" deco stylistic sensibility as in 1939, but the same shock of the new mentality, and the same slew of really bad, dangerous, don't do this at home ideas that were nowhere near ready for prime time. One thing I remember him describing was this, I guess it was a microwave grill, in the "homes of the future" area. Microwave grill. Honestly. My dad lived a good long life, but he was only a spectator. Sometimes I wonder about the poor guy who was demonstrating it. Probably paid 25¢ a day to lean over the darn thing for hours at a time cooking steaks. I wonder how long he lived after the fair was over.

Probably not very long. Just like the Doctors that advocated smoking, or the fellows that built the first nuclear power plants, or were part of the early nuclear tests. Unfortunately this type of thing still goes on, and a lot of uninformed people get exposed or contaminated and the ones responsible are no where to be found after the fact. Two years ago my company was subcontracted to do some work at a famous local building, which was built in the 1920's and filled with asbestos. Now, I and those I am working with have enough experience to identify it, and enough sense to refuse to work around it if all of the correct safety precautions are not taken. These are quite involved and elaborate, and expensive. The owner's representative was quite cavalier and "assured" me that everything had been cleared from the area we were expected to work in. I could see it wasn't, and when I asked him to provide all of the reports for the evacuated zones, which are mandatory under local laws, he started stuttering and muttering... Unfortunately he hoodwinked some young tradesmen (apprentices, or just out of their time) to go into the area and do the work that we had refused.
On a lighter note, it would be interesting to figure out how to incorporate a microwave grill, like the one above, into the game. What kind of damage, healing, etc. The wonderful reaction when the warrior's steel sword comes into contact with the microwaves... I wonder, would it be like tin foil in a contemporary microwave oven?:eek:

Shemek