Quote from: chirine ba kal;10416651) Abject poverty. Most people these days don't understand just how poverty-stricken most fans and gamers were, back then. I was considered to be very affluent because I could afford my one one-person apartment - most fans would have had three to six people living in such - and owned my own car. And could afford food on a regular basis.

That is very true.  Between Phil's very nice house, and a collection of antiquities mostly acquired "in the field" for a few dollars from local police departments, Phil appeared to be "living large" to somebody whose "New American Dream" was a minimum-wage job and an efficiency apartment on a bus line.

When you're working for minimum wage, somebody pulling down a professor's salary is rich.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1041664Oh, I agree - but I'd respectfully point out that the middling 1980s were the one time when movie rights might have been viable - Don got a nice fat check from the Gor movie, remember.

And also agreed about the total inability to make any decisions, either.

...there has ever been a Gor movie?!?
Wait, Uncle, no need to answer. I'll ask Uncle Google now. Just wanted to say that I'm surprised.
The thread is surprising me today:)!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1041666That's good to hear. I've been invited to play in a game, believe it or not!

The only thing that surprises me about these news, Uncle, is how long it took...
I just hope it's not a modern D&D game. Those have really moved away from your style.
However, my feeling is that you'd do wonders in a Call of Chthulhu game in the 30ies - especially if the GM isn't stingy with giving you bonuses for good roleplaying!
(I'm just afraid to think what you'd do in a Dark Ages CoC game...Chthulhu should know in advance those stars are never right:)!)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1041667You have it precisely - and we fought this for years. Neither Dave or Lou saw any point in marketing their products, and it really hurt sales and awareness of them.

I almost spilled my medicine upon reading this:D!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1041676That is very true.  Between Phil's very nice house, and a collection of antiquities mostly acquired "in the field" for a few dollars from local police departments, Phil appeared to be "living large" to somebody whose "New American Dream" was a minimum-wage job and an efficiency apartment on a bus line.

When you're working for minimum wage, somebody pulling down a professor's salary is rich.

Somehow, that description inspires me to play a Call of Chthulhu game in the 30ies, Glorious General:D!
I mean, someone who has a car and feeds regularly is rich, most people work minimum-wage, professors are actually rich...seems like a great fit:p!
I'm just going to add that to my answer to Chirine, if you don't mind;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1041667Neither Dave or Lou saw any point in marketing their products,)

This is very true.  With all due respect to Lou Zocchi, I don't think he ever really moved his mindset out of the early days when conventions were where you browsed the sellers' tables because that's how you found things; unless you were Avalon Hill, you just didn't advertise.

I'm... not quite sure what Dave was thinking.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1041667You have it precisely - and we fought this for years. Neither Dave or Lou saw any point in marketing their products, and it really hurt sales and awareness of them.)

I just learned something new today while I was surfin' the net with my Saturday morning coffee. I was reading about the history of Gamescience, and came to the part in the early eightes, not too long after Lou had acquired the license to publish Tekumel from TSR, Lou had commissioned a large print run of both Swords & Glory vol 1., The World of the Petal Throne, as well as Swords & Glory vol 2., The Tekumel Players Handbook. When Hurricane Elena came through Biloxi in late August/Early September of 1985 the week just after GenCon it tore the roof off of the Gamescience warehouse there, and pretty much destroyed his entire Empire of the Petal Throne print run, along with just about everything else from Gamescience that was available at that time as well. I didn't know this until today, that he pretty much had to completely rebuild Gamescience from scratch beginning in the Autumn of 1985, and I have spoken with Lou on several occasions about Swords & Glory, he is so humble, he never even mentioned that setback.

Quote from: AsenRG;1041715...there has ever been a Gor movie?!?
Wait, Uncle, no need to answer. I'll ask Uncle Google now. Just wanted to say that I'm surprised.
The thread is surprising me today:)!


The only thing that surprises me about these news, Uncle, is how long it took...
I just hope it's not a modern D&D game. Those have really moved away from your style.
However, my feeling is that you'd do wonders in a Call of Chthulhu game in the 30ies - especially if the GM isn't stingy with giving you bonuses for good roleplaying!
(I'm just afraid to think what you'd do in a Dark Ages CoC game...Chthulhu should know in advance those stars are never right:)!)


I almost spilled my medicine upon reading this:D!


Somehow, that description inspires me to play a Call of Chthulhu game in the 30ies, Glorious General:D!
I mean, someone who has a car and feeds regularly is rich, most people work minimum-wage, professors are actually rich...seems like a great fit:p!
I'm just going to add that to my answer to Chirine, if you don't mind;).

Yep. Jack Palance was in it. Had very little to do with the books, but Don said that the hefty check cleared the bank.

I'm not sure what I'm flying into. Originally, all I was supposed to be doing was technical advice and help, but then one of the people in the group asked the GM to please invite me. I'll have more on this after the game, but I'm kinda feeling honored by both the player and the GM. More to come.

Sorry. lou had a very good business model that worked for him, the trade show stand. He and we may have disagreed on some stuff, but he's a great guy and pretty damn good merchant. Dave, on the other hand, I never really knew where his head was at as a game company. I dunno; I may never know.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1041747This is very true.  With all due respect to Lou Zocchi, I don't think he ever really moved his mindset out of the early days when conventions were where you browsed the sellers' tables because that's how you found things; unless you were Avalon Hill, you just didn't advertise.

I'm... not quite sure what Dave was thinking.

True. Lou's business model worked quite fine for him - he enjoyed what he did and how he did it, and I frankly enjoyed shopping through his booth. I don't think he really found his feet as a third-party publisher; as a first party one, he was actually pretty darn good.

Dave. Yeah, I'd agree. you and I had some epic tussles with him over the years at AGI, as did Jim Moffat over "Rails Thru The Rockies". I just don't know; Dave had all the money he needed, all the talent you could ask for with the crew he hired, and he just never could seem to find his feet. And he and Phil just did not gel as a publishing team, which didn't help matters at all.

There are days when I wish he'd never hired me as 'the Tekumel Guy'. On the one hand, if he hadn't, the thing would have been dead on arrival in the early 1980s and I'd be looking at being able to retire with forty years' seniority an an absurdly large pension. On the other hand, I would have not gotten The Missus and later the Five Daughters out of gaming. So, I think it all worked out, in the final accounting.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1041802I just learned something new today while I was surfin' the net with my Saturday morning coffee. I was reading about the history of Gamescience, and came to the part in the early eightes, not too long after Lou had acquired the license to publish Tekumel from TSR, Lou had commissioned a large print run of both Swords & Glory vol 1., The World of the Petal Throne, as well as Swords & Glory vol 2., The Tekumel Players Handbook. When Hurricane Elena came through Biloxi in late August/Early September of 1985 the week just after GenCon it tore the roof off of the Gamescience warehouse there, and pretty much destroyed his entire Empire of the Petal Throne print run, along with just about everything else from Gamescience that was available at that time as well. I didn't know this until today, that he pretty much had to completely rebuild Gamescience from scratch beginning in the Autumn of 1985, and I have spoken with Lou on several occasions about Swords & Glory, he is so humble, he never even mentioned that setback.

You didn't know about this?!? Wow.

Yeah. Lou got pretty much wiped out and managed to build his business back up again. He lost all of the remaining copies of EPT that he'd gotten from TSR, about 400 copies, and most of the new S&G books he'd done. It killed our sales stone cold dead, as we couldn't get anything from him, and I kinda think that with that and AGI folding about the same time that this was the effective end of the second try at Tekumel publishing. I did get all of the AGI inventory of Tekumel stuff, and that later went off to Tadashi when Phil sold the rights to him. Phil never signed a contract with us - his own company - to publish any of his works; Tekumel Games was selling the inventory that Gronan got from me when TGI bought me out. Both us of have opinions on how all this went down; I don't think Phil ever understood, despite being told many times by the two of us, how a business worked.

I like Lou. He's one of the most decent people in the hobby.

The Missus, the Lady of the House in Ancient Egyptian terms, is also a crafts person and has her own hobby interests. Today, I got to drive her to a gem and jewelry sale here in town; I always love to go, as this particular trade show is a magnet for the local South Asian community. The place was, as usual, stuffed to the rafters with generations of ladies out for a bargain - you could see young girls, their older sisters, their mothers, their grandmothers, and their aunties in everything from Western casual to saris to kurtas. What I love is the animation of the merchants as they tout their wares to the potential customers, and the equally animated responses of same. Haggling goes on all over the place - the Westerners in the crowd all tend to look baffled, but The Missus dives right in as she's spent time in Saudi and knows the drill. We had a small audience for each of her transactions, as the ladies around her stopped and admired the technique of an American woman who 'got it'. The merchants were equally delighted, and really got into the spirit of the thing, with "special show price, just for you!" with huge smiles. Being the man of the house, I stood around with a dumb look on my face along with all the other menfolk; we know our place - we carry the baggage.

The Missus snagged some incredible sari fabric, the likes of which any wealthy clan lady in Jakalla would have swooned over.

It was wonderful. I thought of Phil, the whole time. And Ambereen.

Game tomorrow; it's been a great weekend, so far.

Okay, that made me smile.  Congratulations to you both.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1041841Okay, that made me smile.  Congratulations to you both.

Thank you! It was simply delightful. The languages, the clothing, the wares on display; all of the jewelry in the the Baahubali series was there, and when I happened to mention this to The Missus a guy standing next to me lit up with a huge smile; obviously, I am an educated and cultured person!

It was, in short, a grand day out despite the rain. (Ever tried getting yards and yards of raw silk back to the car a block away in the rain? Hoo, boy, was I terrified!) Got home and pulled all the stuff for the game off the shelves and into the new 'Bug Bins',  a set of ten plastic tubs with attached lids that exactly fit into De Bug like they were made for it, and are now what I use to transport stuff to 'away' games. If it don't fit into the bins, it don't go. And room left over for the small luggage, too, so I shall be traveling in comfort.

This is kinda a special event for me; it's the friends's first big game in Ye Classic Olde Style, and I am going to be able to get it all set up and ready before they get there. In short, I'm going to get what I truly love about this hobby, the look of astonishment and wonder on their faces when they see the table.

"Baahubali!!!"

Photos tomorrow.

The details about MAR Barker made me wonder. How did he combine writing Tekumel, a rather bureaucracy-heavy setting from my point of view, with not understanding why procedures like signing up with his publishers are necessary?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1041840The Missus, the Lady of the House in Ancient Egyptian terms, is also a crafts person and has her own hobby interests. Today, I got to drive her to a gem and jewelry sale here in town; I always love to go, as this particular trade show is a magnet for the local South Asian community. The place was, as usual, stuffed to the rafters with generations of ladies out for a bargain - you could see young girls, their older sisters, their mothers, their grandmothers, and their aunties in everything from Western casual to saris to kurtas. What I love is the animation of the merchants as they tout their wares to the potential customers, and the equally animated responses of same. Haggling goes on all over the place - the Westerners in the crowd all tend to look baffled, but The Missus dives right in as she's spent time in Saudi and knows the drill. We had a small audience for each of her transactions, as the ladies around her stopped and admired the technique of an American woman who 'got it'. The merchants were equally delighted, and really got into the spirit of the thing, with "special show price, just for you!" with huge smiles. Being the man of the house, I stood around with a dumb look on my face along with all the other menfolk; we know our place - we carry the baggage.

The Missus snagged some incredible sari fabric, the likes of which any wealthy clan lady in Jakalla would have swooned over.

It was wonderful. I thought of Phil, the whole time. And Ambereen.

Game tomorrow; it's been a great weekend, so far.

That's a great description, Uncle:)!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1041842Thank you! It was simply delightful. The languages, the clothing, the wares on display; all of the jewelry in the the Baahubali series was there, and when I happened to mention this to The Missus a guy standing next to me lit up with a huge smile; obviously, I am an educated and cultured person!

And that just made me smile;).

From today's mayhem:

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And two more, all four now on The Source Facebook page:

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Quote from: AsenRG;1041923The details about MAR Barker made me wonder. How did he combine writing Tekumel, a rather bureaucracy-heavy setting from my point of view, with not understanding why procedures like signing up with his publishers are necessary?

That's a great description, Uncle:)!

And that just made me smile;).

Phil did his writing pretty well, but I never did understand his thinking in business matters. He never signed any contract with Tekumel Games, which made pretty difficult to make that company viable. He did not sign a general agreement with Adventure Games, and only a few individual agreements for specific products. He really needed a good business manager or agent to run his literary affairs, but he never took that step. I think, and I'm just guessing here, that all his reflexes were geared to the academic world.

Glad you liked it; it was a very good outing, and we really enjoyed ourselves.

Today went perfectly. the looks on everyone's faces when they saw the table were exactly what I had hoped for, and the passerby that stopped to stare all the rest of the day were equally astonished - especially when the GM(s) told then that it was D&D game. It drummed up a lot of interest in the group, and the photos that the store put up on their Facebook page seemed popular. So, we'll score this one as a win; everything happened on time and under budget, nothing got broken, and everybody had  a good time. The group wants to come back to this in a couple of weeks, to finish exploring the town and see the local sights.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;10416651) Abject poverty. Most people these days don't understand just how poverty-stricken most fans and gamers were, back then. I was considered to be very affluent because I could afford my one one-person apartment - most fans would have had three to six people living in such - and owned my own car. And could afford food on a regular basis.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1041676That is very true.  Between Phil's very nice house, and a collection of antiquities mostly acquired "in the field" for a few dollars from local police departments, Phil appeared to be "living large" to somebody whose "New American Dream" was a minimum-wage job and an efficiency apartment on a bus line.
When you're working for minimum wage, somebody pulling down a professor's salary is rich.

I get this for when you guys were the Tekumel publishers, but the Foundation guys are not young folks starting out in life, they are all older folks with careers, one of whom is a college professor. Maybe not a department head like Professor Barker but still a college professor, and one that should know what a department head makes. How does a group like that come to believe that the Professor had a dump truck filled with money from Tekumel unloading on his lawn regularly? That is what I have a hard time believing.