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Author Topic: Question about Stronghold and Followers  (Read 1306 times)

Spike

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Question about Stronghold and Followers
« on: October 23, 2019, 11:22:06 AM »
So the local group I'm vaguely in (work, etc...) has a guy running a one off on Halloween, and he mentioned this 'great' product called, well, Stronghold and Followers that he had recently acquired. Now, that sort of product is sort of my jam as a player, so I looked it up, intending to make purchase, sight unseen.

It seems its produced by MCDM, unless there are multiple products with this name currently out, and lets say that the opening page upon google search has me questioning the designer's intent (a three page vanity essay where you brag about your 30,000 posts on RPGnet? um.....)...

So has anyone see this thing?  Is it what it advertises: A product about building strongholds and managing followers, or is it some thinly veiled political screed about how awesome pudding is?

Inquiring minds want to know.
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S'mon

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Question about Stronghold and Followers
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2019, 12:10:02 PM »
The Matt Colville book? He's a famous Youtube Celebrity doncha know!

I was interested, but didn't get it. It seems to be focused on adventuring benefits a stronghold gives a PC, a bit like Boons in the DMG. I think if I want more domain rules than the 5e base rules I'll use ACKS for that stuff. So far I've been happy with the DMG and some simple follower rules in the Primeval Thule CS.

This review looks decent - https://www.enworld.org/threads/strongholds-followers-a-review.666085/

Spike

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Question about Stronghold and Followers
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2019, 12:45:02 PM »
Hmm... thanks for the link.  I have no idea who Matt Colville is supposed to be, not even after reading his vanity essay (some... dude who did rule Faqs for Dune CCG? Um... okay?), and it does seem like that self aggrandizing writing style of his vanity essay is in the book, but then I am a fan of Battlelords of the 23rd century, so I can hardly complain.

I am again reminded that 5e appears to be a bland, half baked pablum of a D&D edition.  Sure, its better than 4e, but then so is testicular cancer, so...low bar and all.  I'm reminded of the nuisance the GM of my last game had when the winged tiefling finally started flying. WHere, exactly, are the rules (or for that matter humble advice) for flying?  He had to... ahem... wing it.    Hell, I see now there is a thread up on how 'weak' and mismanaged the Crafting rules are, and I'm starting to wonder what, exactly, is IN the DMG


Never mind that the organization of this edition is complete balls. Just... balls.  Someone tell me exactly what was gained, just for example, by sticking the potions into the miscellanious magic items? Or why there are no subsections at all in the magic items chapter? Just one little example. Its not like someone had to think really hard about what subsections to use/create or anything. What was gained by that choice?

Or hey, why not give skills a chapter? And why are the effects of attributes so far removed (a hundred pages or more) from the part of the book where you actually generate said attributes?  

I can go on, and on, and on, and on...

But really: Its not like they needed to hire a layout guy to figure all this out. All they had to do was ape the layout used in every single other edition (... er... that I'm familiar with, at least. Going back to AD&D, anyway....).

Right. So, I'll leave off any final decisions to let the thread mature (if it matures...), but I'll probably get this.  My first 5e character tried building a monk's temple at level 1, and my current character (different group) is halfway through upgrading/building a tavern in Waterdeep (that one is the GM's fault... I am blameless there!), so, as I said: Its sorta my jam.  And my Ex has my 3e book on the same topic (which was, to be fair, somewhat underwhelming...).
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Giant Octopodes

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Question about Stronghold and Followers
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2019, 01:10:07 PM »
Quote from: Spike;1111419
Hmm... thanks for the link.  I have no idea who Matt Colville is supposed to be, not even after reading his vanity essay (some... dude who did rule Faqs for Dune CCG? Um... okay?), and it does seem like that self aggrandizing writing style of his vanity essay is in the book, but then I am a fan of Battlelords of the 23rd century, so I can hardly complain.

I am again reminded that 5e appears to be a bland, half baked pablum of a D&D edition.  Sure, its better than 4e, but then so is testicular cancer, so...low bar and all.  I'm reminded of the nuisance the GM of my last game had when the winged tiefling finally started flying. WHere, exactly, are the rules (or for that matter humble advice) for flying?  He had to... ahem... wing it.    Hell, I see now there is a thread up on how 'weak' and mismanaged the Crafting rules are, and I'm starting to wonder what, exactly, is IN the DMG


Never mind that the organization of this edition is complete balls. Just... balls.  Someone tell me exactly what was gained, just for example, by sticking the potions into the miscellanious magic items? Or why there are no subsections at all in the magic items chapter? Just one little example. Its not like someone had to think really hard about what subsections to use/create or anything. What was gained by that choice?

Or hey, why not give skills a chapter? And why are the effects of attributes so far removed (a hundred pages or more) from the part of the book where you actually generate said attributes?  

I can go on, and on, and on, and on...

But really: Its not like they needed to hire a layout guy to figure all this out. All they had to do was ape the layout used in every single other edition (... er... that I'm familiar with, at least. Going back to AD&D, anyway....).

Right. So, I'll leave off any final decisions to let the thread mature (if it matures...), but I'll probably get this.  My first 5e character tried building a monk's temple at level 1, and my current character (different group) is halfway through upgrading/building a tavern in Waterdeep (that one is the GM's fault... I am blameless there!), so, as I said: Its sorta my jam.  And my Ex has my 3e book on the same topic (which was, to be fair, somewhat underwhelming...).

Yeah it's pretty underwhelming.  Thankfully I still have the "stronghold builder's guidebook" from 2002 and use that without issue in 5e along with quite a bit of homebrew of course.  I assume you are referring to that when referring to the 3e book which is underwhelming (which it is, to be fair)?  It serves as a stronger base than the default 5e rules, let's put it that way.  Which is indicative I think of both the failings of 5e and my typical solutions to those failings, which is to say I just staple in systems from elsewhere or design them myself to get where I want to be.  I have no idea as to the quality of this latest offering, I haven't seen it myself, but I am curious for those who have both the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook and it, which one is better?

Spike

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Question about Stronghold and Followers
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2019, 01:23:51 PM »
That's probably the book in question.  Honestly, if I were to DM 5e I'd probably want to keep the 3e books handy (or really any (er... maybe not 4...) to reference when 5e gives me either a big wet fart of an answer on how to handle X, or alternatively, is so badly organized that no one knows where to look for it, except that, well, my ex took all of my 3e books (seriously: Three goddamn copies of the PHB...) but left me the Pathfinder rules that I had never touched/purchased. WTH?, so that's out of the question.

I dunno why I'm even worried about that. I stopped considering myself a D&D guy since the first time I sat down at a 'not-D&D' game.*










* For the curious, that was GURPS. Third was Shadowrun, followed by Champions.  I'm not sure what was fourth, probably Cyberpunk 2020, but I had the Mechwarrior books before that, so...  
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Anthony Pacheco

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Question about Stronghold and Followers
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2019, 02:15:17 PM »
Stronholds & Followers is fantastic. It's a 5E product and an attempt to bring the spirit of Birthright to 5E by starting with strongholds and followers and branching out later to kingdoms and armies.

It's also a freshman effort as Colville was a lore producer and a novelist. The transition to D&D 5E supplement I term as bumpy. I backed the book wanting stronghold and followers. I got stronghold, followers, mass combat rules, an adventure (that uses the rules, kinda), a ton of lore built around monsters to summon, gemstone dragons, magic items, and pages of some adventuring party doing things outlined in the book. I would have liked to see more from the strongholds and followers section.

I am using the stronghold and follower rules in my D&D 5E campaign and will also use the OGL portions in a future product.

Birthright always remains a great system to use or modify.
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tenbones

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Question about Stronghold and Followers
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2019, 02:49:16 PM »
Quote from: Spike;1111431
That's probably the book in question.  Honestly, if I were to DM 5e I'd probably want to keep the 3e books handy (or really any (er... maybe not 4...) to reference when 5e gives me either a big wet fart of an answer on how to handle X, or alternatively, is so badly organized that no one knows where to look for it, except that, well, my ex took all of my 3e books (seriously: Three goddamn copies of the PHB...) but left me the Pathfinder rules that I had never touched/purchased. WTH?, so that's out of the question.

I dunno why I'm even worried about that. I stopped considering myself a D&D guy since the first time I sat down at a 'not-D&D' game.*

If it matters - Dragon #295 has material for strongholds, costs, values, a bit of historical lore on the construction of castles including non-European ones. Full disclosure - I wrote it, heh. It's 3e but the values are still applicable if you're into such things, and conversion is pretty minimal.

I own Colvilles book. It's... good. Depends on the GM and what kinds of games they're running. I like it for what it is - the maps are cool. I'm not sure it's worth the price of entry - BUT that's because as an experienced GM I don't really need all the stuff he's packed in here. For a novice or mid-range experienced GM that is looking for tools to expand the details of their game and learn-to-sandbox, I think it's a pretty nifty book

But again - that's a pretty niche audience for 5e imo.

The book itself gives you lots of examples of "strongholds" their costs, upkeep, denizen jobs, types of strongholds run by classes, including social festivities with sub-systems help nudge things along using tables.

It's exactly what it purports to be: a book about running a stronghold-centric campaign where PC's are denizens and/or rulers/shotcallers and have to deal with the construction/upkeep/dramas that go along with engaging in such activities.

There's siege-warfare rules, multipart mini-campaign, small bestiary, items, etc.

Honestly? I think at ~250 pages it's about 100-pages of tacked-on stuff that I think is unnecessary for the meat of the book. It was gifted to me... so while *I* personally wouldn't have purchased this book on perusal, (because I don't really need it), I can definitely see how other GM's cutting their teeth, or desiring to expand their play into this kind of content and want to save some legwork would derive a lot of value

Just my two-coppers.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 10:14:44 AM by tenbones »

Trinculoisdead

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Question about Stronghold and Followers
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2019, 04:15:53 PM »
Here's some free homebrew Stronghold stuff for 5e D&D that could be helpful:

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/3vqsi3/strongholds_building_rules_v02_fixeverything/

Extra Merchant stuff:
https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/5uphft/wh_strongholds_traders_merchants_expanded/

There was a lot of hoo-ha over on Reddit for Colville's stuff, so the counter-culture in me has me is set against buying Strongholds and Followers. Also, I don't play 5e any more.

It's on its way in the mail still, but I've heard that this is solid: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/99063/An-Echo-Resounding-A-Sourcebook-for-Lordship-and-War?manufacturers_id=3482

Shasarak

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Question about Stronghold and Followers
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2019, 06:04:04 PM »
I have Matts Strongholds and Followers book which I backed on Kickstarter.  I think that it is good for giving a 5e DM a taste of running a PC Stronghold without bogging down with too many rules
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Giant Octopodes

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Question about Stronghold and Followers
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2019, 06:15:03 PM »
For the 3 people who indicated they have Strongholds and Followers, do any of you have the Stronghold Builder's compendium, and if so, for someone who already has that, would you feel this is at all worth it?  I'm always a fan of PC strongholds, and generally feel the more resources you have to throw into the mix the better you can make the final result, but I'm unsure if it brings anything truly "new" to the table, if you know what I mean.  I'm not expecting to use the followers or adventures or other stuff at all.

Anthony Pacheco

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Question about Stronghold and Followers
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2019, 06:45:49 PM »
Quote from: Giant Octopodes;1111475
For the 3 people who indicated they have Strongholds and Followers, do any of you have the Stronghold Builder's compendium, and if so, for someone who already has that, would you feel this is at all worth it?  I'm always a fan of PC strongholds, and generally feel the more resources you have to throw into the mix the better you can make the final result, but I'm unsure if it brings anything truly "new" to the table, if you know what I mean.  I'm not expecting to use the followers or adventures or other stuff at all.

If you are talking about the Stronghold Builder's compendium for 3.X, I was never a fan of that product. It seemed scattered, and I got the impression it had bad or no playtesting.

I've played the heck out of the old AD&D/2E supplement with a blue cover. Those rules work for an OSR game, yes. You can't use the rules with a low-gold campaign, though, so adjust accordingly.

The intent with 5E is to simplify things by removing crunch from fluffy stuff. If I had a player wanting to design and build their stronghold, I would have them draw it up and run through an adventure to get the funds, an adventure to keep the castle (thus validating them as owners) and leave it at that, no matter how much I liked the 2E blue book. The players are going to remember the Raid for the Lost Dragon Horde of Zoohl, not their spreadsheet outlining the cost down to the last gold piece.
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lordmalachdrim

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Question about Stronghold and Followers
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2019, 07:10:09 PM »
It's interesting and has some decent ideas.

He's running a kickstarter to expand from the Stronghold and Followers to full Kingdoms and Armies right now - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/255133215/kingdoms-warfare-and-more-minis?ref=profile_saved_projects_live

tenbones

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Question about Stronghold and Followers
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2019, 10:16:37 AM »
Quote from: Giant Octopodes;1111475
For the 3 people who indicated they have Strongholds and Followers, do any of you have the Stronghold Builder's compendium, and if so, for someone who already has that, would you feel this is at all worth it?  I'm always a fan of PC strongholds, and generally feel the more resources you have to throw into the mix the better you can make the final result, but I'm unsure if it brings anything truly "new" to the table, if you know what I mean.  I'm not expecting to use the followers or adventures or other stuff at all.


I own it. I was forced to use it as a reference for my Dragon article. It's okay. If the purpose is to round out ideas that might be useful for your own purposes in terms of what elements you want/don't want in terms of building, maintaining, defending a stronghold... and your campaign is going to revolve heavily around those elements... it's okay.

If none of those things are going to be a "big deal" in your game... honestly, probably not worth it if your'e going to pay more than $5 for a pdf of it or something.

I think if you're going to drop cash: go ahead and get Colville's book, but only if you *really* want some handholds for Stronghold-style play for 5e. If you want some good Stronghold rules ideas to craft your own, but want some inspiration but don't wanna drop a lot of money - go ahead and get the PDF on DriveThru here, with the expectation you're going to have to hand-tool your own rules.

Or you can get the Stronghold-themed issue of Dragon #295 which fills in a lot of the gaps missing from the Stronghold Builder's book, and you should be set.

The question is how much work do you wanna do?