Why do you have a character sheet if you're not supposed to use it?

Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 15, 2024, 10:27:44 AM
As designed. Who is playing a game? Whose wits are being used to solve problems in that game? ( hint: it sure as hell isn't a character) Your character can't think, or reason without the player. The character is essentially some numbers and notes on a sheet of paper. It won't get offended if the player gets to solve problems in the game.

Why is there a character statistic called intelligence?

Quote from: Domina on March 25, 2024, 12:01:34 AM
Why is there a character statistic called intelligence?

Because character vs player knowledge is a thing. For instance, players do not know fantasy languages while characters may.

If the character's problems solving ability, common sense or social ability are derived entirely from the player's ability in these areas, you may as well remove mental stats like intelligence, wisdom or charisma from the game entirely.  Just get rid of them.  They are largely superfluous anyway.  For systems where players spend resources like allocating scores or spending points for stats, they become trap options since the player is spending resources on stats that don't really do anything.  It also encourages players to dump these stats as hard as possible since they don't really matter.  Character knowledge like how many languages they know can be derived directly from the character's background.  There's no need for an intelligence stat for this.  If the character's mental ability is identical to the player's mental ability, then mental stats don't do anything and don't need to be in the game at all.

Quote from: yosemitemike on March 25, 2024, 07:54:52 AM
If the character's problems solving ability, common sense or social ability are derived entirely from the player's ability in these areas, you may as well remove mental stats like intelligence, wisdom or charisma from the game entirely.  Just get rid of them.  They are largely superfluous anyway.  For systems where players spend resources like allocating scores or spending points for stats, they become trap options since the player is spending resources on stats that don't really do anything.  It also encourages players to dump these stats as hard as possible since they don't really matter.  Character knowledge like how many languages they know can be derived directly from the character's background.  There's no need for an intelligence stat for this.  If the character's mental ability is identical to the player's mental ability, then mental stats don't do anything and don't need to be in the game at all.

I don't think you will find the player of a magic user in AD&D dumping intelligence. Spell failure and a low chance to learn new spells is not all that fun.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 25, 2024, 08:00:46 AM
I don't think you will find the player of a magic user in AD&D dumping intelligence. Spell failure and a low chance to learn new spells is not all that fun.

Get rid of that too.  Base those things on background too or just dispense with them entirely.  If the character's intelligence isn't related to the character's intelligence, then intelligence doesn't need to exist as a stat at all. 

Quote from: yosemitemike on March 25, 2024, 08:07:57 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 25, 2024, 08:00:46 AM
I don't think you will find the player of a magic user in AD&D dumping intelligence. Spell failure and a low chance to learn new spells is not all that fun.

Get rid of that too.  Base those things on background too or just dispense with them entirely.  If the character's intelligence isn't related to the character's intelligence, then intelligence doesn't need to exist as a stat at all.

Alternately, have a specific Magic attribute that guages your facility with magic. That would be something measurable. Paladins and other partial casters like Rangers would need certain minimums in that stat to be able to use their spellcasting ability.

Nothing wrong with a game where the core stats are Might (Str/Con), Agility (Dex) and Spirit (spellcasting/will saves) and leaving all the mental activities to the player.

Quote from: Brad on March 16, 2024, 09:30:13 PM
I remember spending hours writing up adventures when I was in school, just to have them dismantled in minutes during our lunchroom sessions.

I think for me the style of adventure has changed a lot. Back in the day, for me at least, much of an adventure was dungeon crawling so a lot of my time went into dungeon creation and filling it with monsters and traps and other obstacles for the players to overcome. Modern adventures seem to be all about a story arc and my players no longer are interested in the dungeon crawl. It's more like they are playing in a novel rather than in a sandbox.

One curious aspect of this is we have a YouTube video reacting to a blog post from eight years ago that was reacting to Finch's primer eight years before that. I don't know that you have to really put Rulings, not Rules under such a huge microscope.

When I first started playing the game, materials were pretty scarce. My cousins, brother and I shared books. Whipping out books during gameplay wasnt fun, so we typically just rolled with it. What was fun is when one of us would read some obscure paragraph Gary had written and the conversation we had, usually at the pool, doing yard work, or something else would go all over the place or have us laughing at our mistakes.

For every minute playing the game, I bet we spent five talking about it outside the game. But at the table (or on the floor) books tend to stay closed unless we were shopping or leveling up.

Quote from: Chris24601 on March 25, 2024, 08:58:13 AM

Alternately, have a specific Magic attribute that guages your facility with magic. That would be something measurable. Paladins and other partial casters like Rangers would need certain minimums in that stat to be able to use their spellcasting ability.

Nothing wrong with a game where the core stats are Might (Str/Con), Agility (Dex) and Spirit (spellcasting/will saves) and leaving all the mental activities to the player.

You could use it for spell casting checks in systems that do that rather than using points or slots.  If a stat isn't actually used in play, it doesn't have any real reason to exist in the system.  Just get rid of it. 

Quote from: finarvyn on March 25, 2024, 09:12:10 AM

Quote from: Brad on March 16, 2024, 09:30:13 PM
I remember spending hours writing up adventures when I was in school, just to have them dismantled in minutes during our lunchroom sessions.

I think for me the style of adventure has changed a lot. Back in the day, for me at least, much of an adventure was dungeon crawling so a lot of my time went into dungeon creation and filling it with monsters and traps and other obstacles for the players to overcome. Modern adventures seem to be all about a story arc and my players no longer are interested in the dungeon crawl. It's more like they are playing in a novel rather than in a sandbox.

We did tons of dungeons as well, but more than anything... Goblin villages. We snuck in, set fire, flooded, and generally speaking broke every Geneva convention against those little guys.

I also remember using B1 and creating all kinds of offshoots from that.

More recently, I love N4 Treasure Hunt as a good kickoff.

Quote from: yosemitemike on March 25, 2024, 07:54:52 AM
If the character's problems solving ability, common sense or social ability are derived entirely from the player's ability in these areas, you may as well remove mental stats like intelligence, wisdom or charisma from the game entirely.  Just get rid of them.  They are largely superfluous anyway.  For systems where players spend resources like allocating scores or spending points for stats, they become trap options since the player is spending resources on stats that don't really do anything.  It also encourages players to dump these stats as hard as possible since they don't really matter.  Character knowledge like how many languages they know can be derived directly from the character's background.  There's no need for an intelligence stat for this.  If the character's mental ability is identical to the player's mental ability, then mental stats don't do anything and don't need to be in the game at all.

Yes.  The converse is also true.  That initial "if" is doing a lot.  What we usually get in game design, however, is something in the middle.  The mental stats are doing some lifting, are somewhat related to what is happening, but not to the same degree as stats in other areas.  (It happens with non-mental/non-social stats occasionally as well, just not as often.) 

I also find that analyzing such things in many designs, that the model has moved substantially without an underlying change to the stats.  When there are no skills, for example, such as B/X (without RC optional secondary skill rules), we used that Int/Wis stat to make rulings on what a player could try and what the chances were.  Of course, Cha got used the same way, on top of its already built in functions.  And then AD&D added to the Int/Wis mechanics.  Adding skills really changes what your stats should or should not be.

The INT stat serves as point of reference for the intellect of the character. Calling for an INT check in order for the character to remember something that was discovered in play by the player 4 or 5 months ago in real time is another use for the stat. It might have only been a few days for character in game time.

Well, I've had asshole GMs who use 'Player Knowledge = Character Knowledge' like a rhetorical bludgeon. My Mechwarrior may be a Kung-fu Motherfucker, but I'm not. And I had a GM that ruled because I personally didn't know the exact technique I wanted to use to disarm my opponent, I was therefore free to be shot in the encounter instead since I wasted my action on a move I didn't personally know. 'Player Knowledge' can be used both ways. 

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 25, 2024, 01:20:24 PM
Well, I've had asshole GMs who use 'Player Knowledge = Character Knowledge' like a rhetorical bludgeon. My Mechwarrior may be a Kung-fu Motherfucker, but I'm not. And I had a GM that ruled because I personally didn't know the exact technique I wanted to use to disarm my opponent, I was therefore free to be shot in the encounter instead since I wasted my action on a move I didn't personally know. 'Player Knowledge' can be used both ways.

GM's like that should be left in the dust. When no one shows up at their table they will either adapt or they will not play games and instead come to online forums to tell everyone how things should be done. 

Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 25, 2024, 12:05:30 PM
The INT stat serves as point of reference for the intellect of the character. Calling for an INT check in order for the character to remember something that was discovered in play by the player 4 or 5 months ago in real time is another use for the stat. It might have only been a few days for character in game time.

That's not intellect.  That's memory.