The only aspect of LARPing that suits my mysterious and occult purposes is having a planning game, where the factions are acted out by different people and with a sort of GM.
Most LARPies don´t care for that.

Luckily I get my fix for this from actual military exercises, the props, costumes and big size equipment is just unbeatable.
Getting paid, and learning actual problem solving and professional staff work is an added bonus. Using high tech training equipment and simulation computers rocks so hard, that it is virtually insurpassable in the task at hand.

I still would kill for attending a Braunstein or a Braunsteinesque Dune LARP. But with the LARPies that exist around my neck of the woods, that´s bound to remain a wet dream.

Quote from: Monster ManuelHey everyone. Don't mind my grammar below, I've been up for about 36 hours.

I was just wondering... what's the general opinion on adventure-styled LARPs like NERO and LIONE, etc, around here

I won't claim mine is a general opinion but rather from someone who ran a NERO chapter for 5 years and ran NERO LARP events for 10 years.

Running a LARP event is an art. The closest equivalent is theatre. While lessons and techniques can be drawn from theatre it is NOT the same thing. A LARP event has several components broken down in two areas: Technical and Plot.

Technical is all the stuff that goes into actually running an event. Like site,food, props, makeup, etc.

Plot is the event story or stories broken down into individual modules and roles.

Finally there is Direction commonly done by a event director. It is half technical (making sure everything is where it's needed to be) and half plot (making sure the story is adjusted to what the players are doing).

All these elements must combine to have a successful NERO LARP event. If one of them sucks then most likely the NERO event will suck. Just like in theater if the stage production sucks and the acting/story shines, or vice versa will mean the play will not be well received.

The biggest stumbling block to successful LARPing is the fact that 90% of LARPS is run on a part-time basis. Unlike theater there isn't a professional core to the art to draw experience from for the part-timer like there is for things like community theater. Plus LARP is deeply divided into different play styles as well as genre. Boffer versus non-boffer, is character stat development tracked?

However the body of knowledge is growing and people are finding out what works and doesn't work for the different styles of LARPs. But it is a slow slow process.

As for LARPs versus MMORPG the biggest difference is the human element. In a NERO LARP the ratio of Plot staff (NPCs) to Players is generally way higher than on MMORPG. This means you are interacting with people instead of pre-programmed scripts or a.i. routines. The downside is that there are downtime because we can't send out bots to entertain the players while the NPCs are setting or resting.

I have ran events that bombed but I have ran events that made people they were actually in the world. If anybody wants to know about the particulars I will be happy to share them.

Quote from: Monster ManuelMy opinion is that LARPs would work best if they accepted their limitations, embraced them, and didn't require the participants to stretch their imaginations too much. That means good costumes, makeup, and props, plausible rules, and a genre that isn't too outlandish.

I agree, and generally understanding a LARP's limitation is an area that NERO LARPs staff has a handle on. This is because in the development of the NERO boffer rules and verbal call system that we found what works and doesn't. The classic example for NERO is flying. Tried a couple of times and it was cheesy every time. However NERO still needs a lot of work to be done in costumes, makeup and props but that varies from chapter to chapter.

Quote from: WilAnd cardboard dragons and guys wearing fake teeth don't contribute much to my suspension of disbelief.

Well my group made a dragon out of Duct tape and PVC ;-).

Seriously what we did was built a lightweight frame out of PVP along with a polearm the had a dragon head made out of PVC pipe and foam. Then we covered the whole thing in duct tape. Then we use this putty stuff to give it a skin. The putty was used because it could be textured and when it cured it was still flexible and wouldn't flake off.

Then we painted it and shaded it. (The one guys was a miniature painter and said it was the biggest damn miniature he ever painted). We rigged a hose through the head and tied to the pole. Attached a water based fire extinguisher to the end.

The Dragon, 'Precious' was designed so that three people was in the frame wielding pvc weapons shaped like claws and a tail. One person holding the head and a fourth operating the fire extinquisher.

You could also pick everything and move it short distance if everyone worked together.

The people that encountered the thing all liked. It looked good, and they had to think about how to fight rather than just rush in. Never forgot the reaction of the first guy who turned the corner of the path.

It was especially effective later in the day as twilight set in. We succeed in intimidating some of the later groups because all they could see the silhouette.

The other successful large monster I remember was a giant done by rigging everything on top of a shoulder/backpack harness. It could be operated by one person and it was scary looking as hell. The person had practiced with it before the event and was able to chase you through the woods even though it was like 10' tall.

Estar- thanks for your posts. Good stuff.

Quote from: estarI have ran events that bombed but I have ran events that made people they were actually in the world. If anybody wants to know about the particulars I will be happy to share them.

I'd be interested in hearing more about anything you have to say about this.

Never liked LARPs.

It just took the G out of RPG. I'm not interested in bad theater.

Quote from: McrowNever liked LARPs.

It just took the G out of RPG. I'm not interested in bad theater.

Me either.

Full-contact boffer combat, complete with shield bashes, full-force swings, and grappling, on the other hand, is phenomenal.

-O

Quote from: obrynMe either.

Full-contact boffer combat, complete with shield bashes, full-force swings, and grappling, on the other hand, is phenomenal.

-O

What keeps a LARP from having all of that? I'm not being contentious; I'm really asking. It seems to me that that stuff would help to make a LARP more immersive.

Quote from: obrynMe either.

Full-contact boffer combat, complete with shield bashes, full-force swings, and grappling, on the other hand, is phenomenal.

-O

I have never seen an adventure LARP, so I don't know if I'd like them or not. Pretty sure not though.

Quote from: Monster ManuelWhat keeps a LARP from having all of that? I'm not being contentious; I'm really asking. It seems to me that that stuff would help to make a LARP more immersive.

In theory?  Nothing.

In practice, it's pretty rare.  The largest LARP-ish activities I'm familiar with run a pretty clean line from high-contact, low-roleplay (Belegarth, Dagorhir, several others) to middling on both (Amtgard) to low-contact high-roleplay (Nero and numerous others).

Part of the reason for this is that high-roleplay LARPs tend to have a class/level system.  It's tough to maintain that your character is a 10th-level fighter when the more physically-fit newbie shows up and pounds you into the ground with a shield bash.

Low-roleplay LARPs don't have this problem.  In Belegarth and Dagorhir, you're exactly as good at combat as you - personally - are.  It doesn't matter if you've been playing the same character for years; if you suck at fighting, you suck at fighting.  There's also no magic - nobody flings spell packets at anyone.  This tends to attract more physical people (sword-jocks) that minimize the roleplay aspects in favor of the combat ones.

Basically, the more importance you place on physical prowess, the less importance you can place on in-game effects.

Amtgard strides a middle ground.  Combat is not as in-your-face as Belegarth, but it's more contact-oriented than Nero.  Class and level improve your abilities to take hits and restrict what equipment you can use.

As a sword- (well... spear-) jock, I'm in the low-roleplay group.  I get my roleplaying out at the table.

-O

Quote from: obrynIn theory?  Nothing.

I'd argue that while you're right about the way US LARPs tend to fall on the spectrum you've laid out (Low roleplay=high contact vs. High roleplay=low contact) that this isn't a required dichotomy. I think it would be possible to have a LARP that was high contact and high roleplay. That's what I'm trying to write. My hope is that it will be all the more immersive that way. I'm pretty sure a lot of EuroLARPS already do this.

QuoteBasically, the more importance you place on physical prowess, the less importance you can place on in-game effects.

I agree. I also think that as long as you acknoledge this fact, there's no reason why a high contact LARP can't also be high roleplay.

Incidentally, I'm not using classes, and the most powerful characters can only do about 4 times as much damage per hit as a competent starting character. Player skill determines how many of those hits land, though.

Quote from: Monster ManuelEstar- thanks for your posts. Good stuff.
I'd be interested in hearing more about anything you have to say about this.

The way you run a plot can matter as much as the quality of the plot and the acting. For example a problem of NERO LARPS is that often you are short on NPCs and resort to what is called in NERO the uber card for your big bad menace. In the worst case you can have the whole camp beating on you and it will still take a while to take you down. While this can be done effectively 1 time out of 10 most of the time it is really not fun.

Note: the best presentation of the uber card is where somebody made balrog wings out of a shoulder harness, pvc, and cloth. The plot leading it up to the creature's appearance was well written and well played, and the appearance was spectacular from what I heard.

As for the uber card its abuse made the use of powerful creature difficult in even when you have a good plot for it. Players go "oh no another uber card." Please even when well played the uber card in game terms means you have people beating on it with sticks and packets nothing doing much. This not really fun when it comes down it.

After several trials I figured out a way to make the uber card work beyond writing a good plot. Basically you look at the average level of your players and make up a minion. By this i mean a creature that will survive for one or two blows cause the player to expend a spell/charge/ability or two.

Most badly played uber card appearance are variations of the bad guy and his gang appear and start smacking people around. In contrast  what I do is start sending waves of these minions. And they keep coming and coming. My plot marshals or myself is keeping an eye on what the players are throwing or using.

Al some point in the next two hours or so in a NERO system they will start running out. At this point you send in the big guy to do whatever is the story calls for.

This has several advantages. The big guy doesn't have to be stated as high along with his guys. Also People are killing and looting along the way even if they lose so they have gained something.  The main disadvantage this can fatigue your NPCs and there is a minimum PC to NPC ratio where this can work. (1 NPC to 4 PCs is about low as I would go).

Finally this is a technique. Not a story or the focus of an event. For me, I used this about once or twice a year at the climax of a major plot. For me two good executions of this technique comes to mind. First is when I was ending a plot about the invasion of our Duchy by a Roman style culture called Ramos. Along with ending my story, the general plot committee wanted our NPC Duke to die for other reasons.

So for the big battle I sent in waves of Ramos Legionaires for about two hours (generally about 15 npcs versus 35 PCs). Half-hour into battle the PCs wised up and actually formed a line and had people shuttling back and forth to be healed and were using other tactics.

Finally when I reached the near to the end of the Ramos Legion (I kept track of Legionaires killed). I formed one last groups and did the encounter where the duke was killed.

This happened based by this time the PCs would not do anything but operate in a unit. So I was able to approach them in formation as the Legion and have the Consul challenge the Duke. So in the field between the lines the two fought and the Duke brought down the Consul. But the Legionnaires broke truce and did a bum rush and killed the Duke. The Angry PCs (and many were totally immersed by this point to be really angry) just slaughtered the remaining legionnaires.

The second time was several years later. My chapter had a long standing plot where there was the under Twin Overlords as the big bad guys. Now I never had them come on-stage and always ran their plot through their lieutenants and minions showing up. Doing this over two years had built up the Twin Overlords in the players mind as some bad dudes.

Finally I reached a point in the story where PCs were making real headway against the twin overlords. And now the Overlords viewed them as the primary threat.

Now the evil overlord plot has been done so many times in NERO by this point (10 years into the game, 2001) that it become a cliche. But I was able to keep this whole plot interesting by using foreshadowing, keeping the main bad guys off stage basically applying tricks that a good director, author, gm does to make a truly interesting story.

Players were having fun but they were really taking the Overlord that seriously lumping them into "just another bad guy" club. So I had to figure out a way round that and possibly take a risk in order to make the player see the Overlord as evil and bad without using the uber card.

What I decided to do was use my wave technique to take control of the town. My plan was to take out the PCs, and enslave them on Friday night. The Overlord were going to leave and put one their lieutenants in charge. Throughout saturday players would be able to find allies and equipment to stage a revolt and then Saturday night and sunday morning rise up and retake the town.

I made a variety of undead minions all of them easily killed by the PCs attending. And for three hours just kept sending in waves of them. I was a little short on NPCs and had like 8 NPCS to about 30 PCs. So I was concerned that I could take the town but not pull off the slavery bit.

When the battle started the PCs were taking about undead left and right. Then the first hour went, then the second hour and they were not stopping. By the end of the second hour I was hearing PCs starting to be concerned. Unlike the Ramos battle I kept the attack scattered throughout the game so the PCs never were bunched up.

Finally sometime in the third hour, the PC broke. People started dying left and right. At this point I sent in the Twin Overlords and their guards. They broke the last remaining groups of high-level PCs and forced them behind the wards and circle protecting the cabins.

Now one aspect of this story was the PCs as slaves were going to be set to work digging up these magical elements and artifacts that were in the area that the Overlords wanted. When the climax came one of the PCs behind the ward just happened to have some of the stuff the Twin Overlords wanted.

The Circle provided a temporary respite and the surviving members of the town were milling about debating what to do. The PCs with the stuff managed to sneak off and approach the Twin Overlords.

To make a long story short the PC in question role-played so well that the Overlords made a deal that if X stuff was found and given then they would spare the town. This also was done because I felt I couldn't run the slavery plot with just 8 NPCs on 30 PCs.

The PC got his buddies and told them. This group came up with a story and hoodwinked the town into finding the items throughout saturday. And when the Overlords returned Saturday night to "take down the circle". They made the exchange. The funniest thing is they were able to make the exchange in front of the whole town with nobody the wiser. They acted like they were disgusted with no being able to attack and just threw the items down in front of Overlords. It was fine bit of role-playing.

In the end everyone had fun, and my goal was achieved as the Overlords were finally taken seriously as a threat.

Sorry for being long winded, and this is only a few of what done with NERO over the years.

Quote from: Monster ManuelI'd argue that while you're right about the way US LARPs tend to fall on the spectrum you've laid out (Low roleplay=high contact vs. High roleplay=low contact) that this isn't a required dichotomy. I think it would be possible to have a LARP that was high contact and high roleplay. That's what I'm trying to write. My hope is that it will be all the more immersive that way. I'm pretty sure a lot of EuroLARPS already do this.

High contact indeed does not preclude role-playing. The essential step for getting a high role-playing in a LARP is to build it into the game from the building by the culture of the players themselves. You have to get enough players together that want to role-play and have a game that rewards role-playing.  Once you get a critcal mass on the staff side and player side then you will have what you want.

However if you don't do this from the beginning it becomes very hard to change later on.

Quote from: Monster ManuelIncidentally, I'm not using classes, and the most powerful characters can only do about 4 times as much damage per hit as a competent starting character. Player skill determines how many of those hits land, though.

One thing to keep in mind - and a big deal from my perspective - is that, the more complex your combat rules are, the more your players need to think about them while fighting.  If they need to track the amounts of damage they've taken to each limb, or how much damage an area's worth, or how much damage a weapon does...  it gets in the way of the pure physicality of it all.

Belegarth's rules are pretty simple...  Here's the essence:

(1) Hit to an arm, drop what's in it and put it behind your back.
(2) Hit to a leg, drop to that knee.
(3) Torso = death
(4) 2 limbs = death
(5) Head & neck off-limits.  (This is necessitated because helms are not required equipment.  Some variants require helms & allow head shots.)
(6) Armor gives an added hit to the area it covers, regardless of type.

Caveats:
(7) Piercing weapons cannot get through armor if used one-handed, but go straight through armor if used two-handed.  They do not count towards two-limb death.
( Great weapons (which meet certain size/weight minimums), when swung two-handed, ignore armor and can break shields with two extremely solid hits.
(9) Arrows and javelins are head-legal, but can be blocked by a helm.  Arrows cannot be blocked by weapons, but javelins can.  Both ignore armor.

That's it.  Someone can learn it in about two minutes, and it's simple to keep track of while keeping combat heated and intense.

-O

We had what I would consider high-contact and high-roleplay.  The main limits on contact were "no blows to the head or crotch", no actual grappling (unless agreed upon by both combatants, in which case it would be done at half-speed), and encouraging people to hit hard enough to register but not hard enough to injure.  We had a required pre-game Combat Training session in which we'd let players have a go at each other with the baffee weapons and familiarize themselves with striking that balance.

Mechanically, we tried to err on the side of simplicity.  We had hit points and armor points (which would be depleted before hit points were), and all hits, unless otherwise stated, were 1 hit point damage.  If it were more damage, the player hitting someone else would yell the point damage while hitting ("Two points!").  Players were on an honor system to keep track of their hit points, which sometimes led to problems (the indestructible rhino character), but for the most part worked okay because we were all there to play out a dramatic adventure, and post-game conversations would ideally help a player to be more sensitive to the matter next time.

We had a class system, but it was broad enough that it should technically include pretty much any character concept.  Something like "Fighter," "Mage", "Fighter-Mage," "Thief," and "Other," I think.  Class only determined how many hit points and skill points you'd start with.  Character-building was based on experience: how many games you had attended.  You'd get a point for every two events, I think, which you could apply to any character.

Skills primarily concerned extra abilities, like setting traps (done with orange streamers), understanding languages ("Forsooth*, I am speaking in Elven..."), and repairing armor.  Many of these, again, operated on an honor system.

The most complicated aspect of the rules were those concerning spells.  Generally every spell-casting character had to carry a miniature copy of the spell rules with them, be it a photocopy of the rules or a hand-written "spellbook."  People got really creative with those, so they became neat in-game props.  Spellcasters were required to quickly call out the effects of their spell after they had 'cast' it (which could involve any kind of roleplay you wanted, like waving your hands around and spouting Latin, but often just ended up being calling out the name of the spell) so that the players involved knew how to react.

Since our rules were very simple, and we tried to keep mechanical-speak to a minimum to maintain the atmosphere, I think it worked very well in encouraging roleplaying.

Again, I have to lay the lion's share of the effectiveness of these rules on being picky about who you're playing with, which of course is impractical if you're dealing with a large organization like NERO.  

But then, I think that's true of tabletop RPGs, as well.

*If you absolutely had to say something out-of-character/out-of-game, you'd preface it with the word "Forsooth," and then try to phrase it in a way that wasn't too jarring.  For example, "I've gotta go back to the car for my cooler" could be stated, "Forsooth, I must return to the caravan for supplies."