Quote from: tenbones;731235Why is everyone still griping? there's only like 4 symbols and 4 negative versions of those symbols. And you add/subtract them. Use them to purchase effects (both GM and PC). Toss in some description on how it "looks" - viola!

still not sure what is the problem?

9 symbols. Not that hard really.

Problem for some may be that they doubled up icons on some of the faces, effectively turning it into a new symbol to parse.
For you or me that is not a problem.
But for others it may be. Not helped that the symbols are a bit too similar when shrunken and doubled up. The "wing" and the "starburst" like ones.

And yeah, for some it is simply FFG spawned gouge/glitze resistance.

Quote from: Skywalker;731253This was my experience. I was leery of EotE to begin with and quite critical of FFG's three way split. But I was determined to keep an open mind about it until a decent actual play experience. I was undecided after one session, but the game convinced me of its approach after a couple of sessions.

My biggest issue is the buy-in. Not monetarily (I bought the beta for goodness sake), but mechanically. It's just so far away from what me and my group have been doing for the past 20+ years that I can't seem to wrap my head around it. It _looks_ like it's a wonderful game, but it's horrible for pickup and play. I have a feeling it wouldn't be so bad if one of us was already familiar with the system, but we're not, and none of us has the time to devote to learning the nuances of an entirely new system.

Does anyone know of any PbP Star Wars games looking for players? I wonder if that might get me a step closer to getting the hang of it.

I understand that. It's a factor in any new game. But the dice are not as big a hurdle as some seem to think it is. EotE plays very much like D&D or WH40K RPGs and the dice only really add a second axis of subsidiary success and failure.

Ultimately, we found the dice actually added to the experience in their own way and we easy to learn. You might not, but I would advise against letting the newness of the dice alone turn you off finding out. There is a good chance that you may find that the newness is not such a big deal.

Quote from: Sommerjon;731009Funny is what it is.
6 symbols trumped you.  You hide behind stochastic function and boolean expression to make yourself sound, oh so super smarty, but can't remember 6 symbols?

Makes me wonder if it was the super difficult symbols to remember that made them not come back or listening to you bitch and whine.

I see you are being your ever reliable self, but I will give you an answer despite your behavior anyway.

It is more than just symbols read, as they are being added together, and then interpreted with extra boolean (just for you, Sommerjon) values in context. When I roleplay it is acting in-character and often a lot like speaking a foreign language. I am immersed and 'not fully myself,' as it were. And in that moment doing certain external functions like translating new symbols into math, and then reading the longer boolean string (because I love, I really do) completely takes me out of the moment and grinds my play to a halt.

It reminds me when I, or my family, or language professors, or the countless long time immigrants I have met, end up doing math in their mother tongue, regardless of the years speaking and living a life in a second, third, or more foreign tongue. When somewhere like the grocery store and doing quick math operations I need my mother tongue to get things done. In a foreign tongue I can usually keep up with numbers spoken aloud, but once math is thrown into the mix I cannot keep up the transliteration. And that's what it is, transliteration. For math I receive the numbers, translate them, calculate, and translate back.

And I have lived in countries where there was a mix of Chinese or Hindi numerals (Middle East Arabic speaking countries) along with the ubiquitous Arabic numerals. Doing basic math at the store converting those symbols becomes far more challenging (not as common as Hindi numbers in the Middle East, but Chinese numbers make their presence known, often in boutiques and specialty shops in East Asia). There's one thing reading a license plate or phone number in those scripts, and even speaking them aloud upon sight in conversation, and doing math with them. The quickest equivalent in Western society is reading Roman numerals in clocks or TV and movie credits versus doing quick math functions with them.

It is a function I do not want in my play. I already deal (and have dealt) with more than enough of it in my life that I know it bothers me during other focus taxing actions, like being in-character. During my leisure time I don't want to do what I see as distracting work. Especially doing such "translate plus math plus translate back" for one little game; Magic the Gathering, L5R, VtES, etc. do not ask of me to do more than read the symbols.

But sure Sommerjon, you can be left content that in a way you are right. That little handful of symbols has trumped me. A "smarty pants" like me cannot handle so few symbols must be the only logical interpretation of the matter.

Quote from: Opaopajr;731430I see you are being your ever reliable self, but I will give you an answer despite your behavior anyway.

But sure Sommerjon, you can be left content that in a way you are right. That little handful of symbols has trumped me. A "smarty pants" like me cannot handle so few symbols must be the only logical interpretation of the matter.

Always love it when someone is trying so hard to look down their nose at others.

Nah, you're looking for a reason to hate the system.  Symbology is just the easiest to pin it on.

Quote from: Sommerjon;731559Always love it when someone is trying so hard to look down their nose at others.

Nah, you're looking for a reason to hate the system.  Symbology is just the easiest to pin it on.

Ahh, standard operating procedure one-liners again. Well, I did expect explanation to you to be a waste. But I have more than enough given reason and explanation to my dislike of the system. That you choose to play your constant "lawn crapping the forum" game instead of trying to understand anything about other viewpoints has everything to do with you and how you like to waste all our time.

You can bring a horse to water, but can't make it drink.

But feel free to continue. You don't listen or care from all the posts I've ever read of you here, and your only purpose seems to be getting a rise out of someone. However I've seen your game long enough and know to bother with only one post of explanation and give you only one chance. And now you may have any last word you wish, because I expect nothing ever better from you. Persisting will be educational for our newcomers of what a consistent waste of time you are.

Quote from: Skywalker;731339I understand that. It's a factor in any new game. But the dice are not as big a hurdle as some seem to think it is. EotE plays very much like D&D or WH40K RPGs and the dice only really add a second axis of subsidiary success and failure.

Ultimately, we found the dice actually added to the experience in their own way and we easy to learn. You might not, but I would advise against letting the newness of the dice alone turn you off finding out. There is a good chance that you may find that the newness is not such a big deal.

For some it is as big a hurdle.

It is like any other aspect of gaming. Board, RPG, LARP, doesnt matter. There are board games who just do not click to RPGs and likely some RPGers who do not get board games. One person may love blind buy CXGs, another will utterly despise them. One player will like storytelling games and the next will never ever like them. Boffers, Percentile dice, THEME! @#$%&ing descending/ascending AC!

Some are willing to give it a try even knowing its not their thing. Just to see for themselves. Others wont for whatever reason.

You cannot force players to play something that just doesnt grok.

Quote from: Omega;731637You cannot force players to play something that just doesnt grok.

I agree.

Quote from: Omega;731637You cannot force players to play something that just doesnt grok.

Yeah, that's pretty much where we are with it. It's just so far away from a traditional set of mechanics that it makes my head hurt. I wish there was some sort of numerical conversion. Can't believe I haven't seen one yet, maybe with different colored dice or something.

I understand trying to promote your own system, but I think it's counterproductive with a license like Star Wars. The more barriers to play you present (and the dice/mechanics are a HUGE barrier), the more people you will lose. If there was some sort of conversion, I don't think it would be so bad.

Why is it counterproductive with a license like Star Wars? Wouldn't it be more counterproductive if you had never heard of the game before? If the publisher was trying to get his game off the ground? It seems to be doing well enough by all the metrics that I've seen, including the "best sellers" lists that pop up from time to time.

The worst part of the game isn't the system, it's that the books aren't organized very well.

Quote from: Endless Flight;731695Why is it counterproductive with a license like Star Wars?

It's counterproductive because you alienate the casual gamer, and that is the demographic Star Wars should be aimed at.

If you have a system that the average non-RPGer does not understand, you are not going to draw in nearly as many new players as you would with a simpler and more recognizable system.

Kids to teens should be a major part of the target audience, with just enough crunch to keep older gamers interested. People are familiar with standard d6s from board games and other games, but even non-standard polyhedrons are easy to understand because they rely on the same familiar principal (i.e. dice with numbers). FFGs dice (and the terminology) look like a bunch of gibberish to your average person and that is not conducive to bringing in new talent.

If a kid brings a system to his parents that relies on numeric dice rolls and number of successes, that is something most people can recognize and explain.

If a kid brings a system to his parents that relies on funky dice with strange symbols that have to be cross referenced and then explained, things get a lot trickier.

I've got a 14 year old and a 12 year old. If I tell them they need to roll 22 or higher to hit with a standard set of dice, that's an easy mechanic to grasp. If I tell them they need to roll 2 starbursts and 1 rebel symbol to hit, now it requires much more buy-in for the casual player who just wants to swing a lightsaber and jump across a ventilation shaft while blasters go pew-pew-pew.

Like I said, this game is horrible for pickup and play, which is a real shame. This game has the potential to really be something, but the system really cripples its exposure.

Personally, from a history of introducing most of the people I play with to RPGs and having two kids age 7 and 12... Casual gamers don't have half the hangups that are ingrained into long time gamers. They just don't have the biases.

My kids both loved EotE when I ran it for them.

I don't see the problem either.

Kids can sometimes grok things that befuddle adults.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;731751Personally, from a history of introducing most of the people I play with to RPGs and having two kids age 7 and 12... Casual gamers don't have half the hangups that are ingrained into long time gamers. They just don't have the biases.

My kids both loved EotE when I ran it for them.

You guys are missing the point.

I'm not talking about gamers introducing new people to gaming. That's something entirely different. I'm talking about non-gamers who might want to become gamers. This should be a huge part of the target audience for Star Wars RPG, and FFGs dice system cripples that because it requires too much of a buy-in.

Hand a copy of the basic FFG task resolution system to a non-gamer---someone from work or even one of your parents, if applicable. Then hand a copy of the basic (chosen at random) Storyteller system to a non-gamer . Give them a day to look over both rule sets and then see which one they're more likely to understand and be able to describe back to you. If a kid asks the average non-gamer parent for help with the rules, which rule set is the parent more likely to understand without having to spend hours reading and cross-referencing?

I'm thinking of board games like Risk and Axis and Allies. Both basically cover the same ground, but which game is easier for your average non-gaming person to pick up and start playing? Which one requires much more of an investment in time and thought? Axis and Allies of course. Does that make it a bad game? Heck no! It's fun as all get out. But is Axis and Allies something you can break out in a mixed crowd of gamers and non-gamers and get everyone to participate?  Not usually.

People (kids or otherwise) can grok anything if they want to. I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that the more accessible the game is, the more likely it will be to attract new people. EotE is not accessible. It hurts itself by mainly being accessible to 1. gamers; 2. gamers that are already familiar with FFG's system and/or are willing to take the time to learn it; and 3. gamers that enjoy FFG's system and/or just want to play Star Wars so badly they'll muddle through it.

It would have been much better served with a lighter, looser system that didn't require proprietary dice. Like I said, if someone could just do a conversion to traditional dice with the same system I think it might even be more appealing. But as it stands, it's way too clunky for most people to tackle.

FWIW pspahn I think you have a valid point, but I think you are exaggerating the impact of proprietary dice. There are many games, even introductory ones, that use them such as MB's HeroQuest.

The use of symbols is just one aspect of the overall hurdle a game presents to new players. And I would guess that it would be a minor one compared to something like overall rules complexity.

What's more important in regard to the point you raise is that FFG have recognised the hurdle that all RPGs represent to new gamers with a specially tailored product that deals with this issue successfully.