One of the things I've always loved about Traveller is that your characters start out with experience. And not necessarily the same amount of experience, either. You could easily have a group with grizzled veterans and green recruits.
The same thing could be applied to D&D, especially after Traveller d20 has been published. The same idea was sort of done in Unearthed Arcana, but those tables suck ass -- the characters you'd randomly generate from them would be weak and would multiclass in ways that would give you horrid multiclassing penalties.
But the general idea is sound, I think, and shouldn't be *that* hard to apply to D&D.
So, the general idea is that for every X years that you add to your character's background, they get stuff -- xp, money, items, etc. But I'm not entirely sure what would be the best way to implement it. And would other subsystems, like Reputation and Contacts, be a good thing to implement with it?
Any musings y'all have on the subject would be very welcome. :)
I remember many moons ago there was a book (actually a series) for randomly generating character backgrounds. I actualy still have a copy of it. If you actually kept it heavily in check it worked out pretty good, if left to the fates of random rolls it often got ridiculous.
The basics were like this though. It random gened your birth, special events family history etc... Then you'd roll every few years to see what you've been doing, i.e. serving in the military, working on a farm, studying in a library whatever. Each different even then had a table that you'd roll on that would give you specific awards. So a military even would be more likely to give you military skill bonuses, some treasure, or military ranks. Someone who'd spent years as a bookworm would have bonuses to research type skills, some accademic contacts etc...
That's generally what I'm looking for. I like the idea of having the background tied to what you are doing instead of a specific class -- especially since there are now around 4,562 "base" classes, just in the WotC books alone. That would also help make it more customizable by campaign -- if you need, say, a border patrol background, you could tweak the military background accordingly.
One thing I am looking for is something where you *could* leave it, more or less, up to the fates. No one (to my knowledge) ever accused the old Traveller of being overpowered, so I think it's possible. :)
Quote from: kryystI remember many moons ago there was a book (actually a series) for randomly generating character backgrounds. I actualy still have a copy of it. If you actually kept it heavily in check it worked out pretty good, if left to the fates of random rolls it often got ridiculous.
The basics were like this though. It random gened your birth, special events family history etc... Then you'd roll every few years to see what you've been doing, i.e. serving in the military, working on a farm, studying in a library whatever. Each different even then had a table that you'd roll on that would give you specific awards. So a military even would be more likely to give you military skill bonuses, some treasure, or military ranks. Someone who'd spent years as a bookworm would have bonuses to research type skills, some accademic contacts etc...
I believe your thinking of the charts from the Hero Builders Guidebook, which are very good for building a random framework for a characters background, history and family. Also you may be thinking of a section from Unearthed arcana that covers things like that, soecifically what happened to the character befor ethe current point in time.
You have hit on one of my favorite topics.:D
This is what I came up with and it worked damn well in three appropriate campaigns.
Very different from the Traveller-stylez random tables I was thinking of, but that's really good. I might have to ponder whether to go with that kind of idea. :)
Very interesting, indeed. :)
Quote from: CyberzombieVery different from the Traveller-stylez random tables I was thinking of, but that's really good. I might have to ponder whether to go with that kind of idea. :)
Very interesting, indeed. :)
It allows for plenty of background options and it playtested very well. Characters end up a smidge more powerful than norm at low levels and it quickly disipates from there. The important part is they have a good background and skills and such at levels that fit.
Giant random tables are fun but they don't fit well with d20, in fact they are kinda the opposite of the system.
I think Limper's is a good stopgap measure using standard d20, and also a way to slow down experience a little bit, but not really the sort of fluid system I'd love.
Dark Conspiracy had career paths. Each unit was something like 4 years of life and included a skill package, wealth and rank options, and background details. You could start off as young or as old as you liked and some options required a second or third term in the same career, and others just had a second or third term which different options.
Made for some great characters whose experience and skills tied into what they did without shoehorning.
Quote from: LimperGiant random tables are fun but they don't fit well with d20, in fact they are kinda the opposite of the system.
Well, part of what I like about T20 is that it intentionally breaks the game balance of d20 and yet it works just fine. I think the same thing could be done to D&D. :D
However, giant random tables are difficult to create, so while your idea isn't what I was thinking of, I'm going to seriously consider it. I may not go with it, but it has a definite elegance to it.
Quote from: JanosDark Conspiracy had career paths.
Very similar to Traveller in spirit (though I don't know how the mechanics compare). Do you remember more about how that worked in specific?
Quote from: JanosDark Conspiracy had career paths. Each unit was something like 4 years of life and included a skill package, wealth and rank options, and background details. You could start off as young or as old as you liked and some options required a second or third term in the same career, and others just had a second or third term which different options.
DCon was made by the same folks who did the latter versions of Traveller so that system was used in both.
If you wanted to block off the ECL idea into 4 year blocks I bet it could be done with point buy... hard to write up but it might well be worth it.
Quote from: CyberzombieVery similar to Traveller in spirit (though I don't know how the mechanics compare). Do you remember more about how that worked in specific?
It's been a few years, but pretty much how I described. You rolled stats, then had the option to begin picking careers. Each career had an entry package, and a second and third term package. Certain careers required previous experience in another career.
For example:
US ArmyRank: Private
Gun skill at 6
Naviation at 3
Stats +1 to two or three different ones
Tactics at 4
2 Knowledges at 3 each
Cash 3d4x10
Age: +4 years
Special: None
2nd TermRank: Corporal
Gun skill +1
Stats +1 to one
Tactics +2
1 additional knowledge at 3
Cash 6d4x10
Age: +6 years
Special: None
Special Forces - Requires 2 terms in US Army
Rank: Major
Gun skill +2, specialized in Sniper Rifle at an additional +1
Stats +1 to four
Tactics +3
2 additional knowledges at 1
2 languages at 2
Cash 8d4x10
Age: +4 years
Special: May call in favors once an adventure for outside info.
The longer you progressed in one career, the smaller the skill returns, but the greater the side perks usually. You started at 16, and had to pick associates degrees, technical programs, bachelor programs, masters, military training, private business options (like private detective), or even options like Stripper.
Quote from: LimperDCon was made by the same folks who did the latter versions of Traveller so that system was used in both.
If you wanted to block off the ECL idea into 4 year blocks I bet it could be done with point buy... hard to write up but it might well be worth it.
I'd love to see an option where you could take as many NPC class levels as you wanted, each with an age and wealth modifier. No magic item purchases or the like though, and everyone would start with at least 1 level in an NPC class representing background.
All characters then took a first level in an adventuring class upon the start of the campaign and picked items and stuff based on that.
So you really could have your Master Blacksmith turned warrior after this shop burned down, or the Master Baker turned thief after his lord unfairly took his land.
Quote from: JanosI'd love to see an option where you could take as many NPC class levels as you wanted, each with an age and wealth modifier. No magic item purchases or the like though, and everyone would start with at least 1 level in an NPC class representing background.
All characters then took a first level in an adventuring class upon the start of the campaign and picked items and stuff based on that.
So you really could have your Master Blacksmith turned warrior after this shop burned down, or the Master Baker turned thief after his lord unfairly took his land.
That is what I was trying to do with my system. It could have used a bit more flexibility but it did a fair job.
After reading your earlier post I might have to revisit it and see what I can come up with. This was always the part of DnD that irritated me.
Quote from: LimperAfter reading your earlier post I might have to revisit it and see what I can come up with. This was always the part of DnD that irritated me.
I'd strip out the package feel because it looks like you're attempting to balance them. Instead just have Commoner progression, Aristocrat progression, Criminal progression, and Crafter progression, etc, with individual wealth, feats, age modifiers, etc.
I'd almost suggest they all have poor BAB progression, and reduce the saves progression to the off-save progression they use in BC and TW. Give them d4s or d6s, and perhaps a level adjustment modifier. Total the modifiers and you see what your adjusted level is. I'd drop the stat boost, as that's a major option, then I'd probably try and balance those three options overall. Then let the PCs go wild.
One step farther might be packages for adventuring classes based on cliches, and something like the old kits.
Mercenary gets you this many BAB and hit points for example (fixed number of hit points so it's more of an advantage). But at this point it's so far from a traditional class system that it argues for a point point or alternate system too.
This sounds pretty cool. The character that I feel has the most personality and I am most attached to was created at lvl 8 so I got to play with her background more than most. I could actually come up with cool encounters in which she recieved her XP where as you are rather limited with normal D&D, you can create any background you want but since you are starting at lvl 1 it better not be that exciting because you didnt get any XP doing it.
Quote from: Emeraldyou are rather limited with normal D&D, you can create any background you want but since you are starting at lvl 1 it better not be that exciting because you didnt get any XP doing it.
I laugh when I read backgrounds about participating in big wars, quests completed, etc. when the character sheet says that they are a 1st level teenager. One of the reasons I like starting a few levels higher.
I like Limper's approach of adding ECL. Another thing it would do is age the character (that was the big trade off in Traveller).
Quote from: KnightcrawlerI believe your thinking of the charts from the Hero Builders Guidebook, which are very good for building a random framework for a characters background, history and family. Also you may be thinking of a section from Unearthed arcana that covers things like that, soecifically what happened to the character befor ethe current point in time.
Nope neither of those. This book series predates D20, it's not even (perish the thought) tied to Dungeons and Dragons specifically. This is an old school gaming.
The T20 rules would work just fine. I've long thought about converting them for use with D&D, but haven't gotten around to it yet. Many of the charts (like the one for joining the Army) wouldn't even really need any changes... They could almost be used as is.
Quote from: NicephorusI laugh when I read backgrounds about participating in big wars, quests completed, etc. when the character sheet says that they are a 1st level teenager. One of the reasons I like starting a few levels higher.
I like Limper's approach of adding ECL. Another thing it would do is age the character (that was the big trade off in Traveller).
That's just part of the problem with players who make up these ridiculous backgrounds. They sound great, they can even be extremely exciting but almost every one I've ever read should end off with "And then a Lich Energy Drained me 15 levels".
I think the ECL concept would work, but if everyone is using the same backgrounds I don't see a need to balance it out with that added level of complication. Adding a bonus feat, some extra skills and potentially even more useful social advantages should cover it all nicely.
Part of the problem with D&D also is that mixed-power parties don't work. So you can't have a handful of 1st level halflings adventuring with the most powerful wizards and warriors of the land and still expect them to contribute equally to the party. Made for a good book though... :p
That's just the way it is. Either everybody is a novice, or everybody is experienced.
Quote from: Name LipsPart of the problem with D&D also is that mixed-power parties don't work. So you can't have a handful of 1st level halflings adventuring with the most powerful wizards and warriors of the land and still expect them to contribute equally to the party. Made for a good book though... :p
That's just the way it is. Either everybody is a novice, or everybody is experienced.
That's not wholy a trait of D&D though, granted it's extremely apparent in D&D but most games suffer from similar draw backs. But D&D stands out more, I mean put a 1st level character with 3rd level characters and you can start to notice a significant gap in abilities.
Much of it is the hit point thing, structured so that twice the levels equals very nearly twice the hit points. In systems where the ability to absorb damage isn't so tilted, it's not as bad. In old traveller, you mainly had more skills so the effect wasn't as big. You could change D20 so that hp at level 1 equals con score (not modifier) + hp from class and later levels don't get a con bonus.
Magic also gets exponentially better at higher levels.