TheRPGSite

(Spinning off from the 4E Essentials thread).

The places where I posted inquiries about printings of 4E books are:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/286090-printings-d-d-4th-edition-books.html

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=528528

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/4thEdition/printingsOf4EBooks

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/25498101/Printings_of_4E_books.


A brief summary of subsequent printings (ie. non-first printings) of WotC 4E books found at bookstores, gaming stores, etc ...

Second Printing

- PHB1
- DMG1
- MM1
- Forgotten Realms Player's Guide  (earliest seen:  August/September 2009)  
- MM2
- PHB2
- Keep on the Shadowfell  (*)  (earliest seen:  early/mid-2009)
- Thunderspire Labyrinth  (earliest seen:  May 2009)

Third Printing

- MM1
- PHB1 (earliest seen:  January 2009)
- DMG1 (*)
- PHB2

Fourth Printing

- PHB2


(*) indicates it was mentioned in one of the above threads, but for which I personally have not seen the particular printing yet.

Entries without an (earliest seen) blurb, were seen recently by myself and others (ie. July 2010).

At this point, it would be nice to verify the existence of a third printing of PHB1.

What info are we gleaning from this?  Not being snarky here, I am curious.

Quote from: Semah;396921What info are we gleaning from this?  Not being snarky here, I am curious.

Examining how far along the 4E books are being printed, and how much errata corrections were incorporated into the subsequent printings.

If possible, an approximate timeline of when the subsequent printings first started to appear on the market.  (This is a lot harder to determine).

At this point, I doubt this 4E printings information collected will ever be in as great detail as "The Acaeum" is for 1E AD&D books.

http://www.acaeum.com

http://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/setpages/phb.html
http://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/setpages/dmg.html
http://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/setpages/monster.html

For reference, here were some minor findings in regard to errata (in a previous post in another thread).

http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=396706&postcount=326

QuoteThe printings of 4E books I came across were:

- second printing of 4E Forgotten Realms Player's Guide
- second printing of 4E PHB1
- second printing of 4E DMG1
- third printing of 4E MM1
- fourth printing of 4E PHB2

(The other 4E books in stock were all first printings).

At one big box bookstore, I sat down and took a closer look at the subsequent printings of PHB1, DMG1, and MM1. It appears there were not many errata (if any) corrections incorporated into these subsequent printings. For example:

- The second printing of PHB1 still had the old stealth rules as the first printing of PHB1.
- The second printing of DMG1 still had the old skill challenges as the first printing of the DMG1.
- The third printing of MM1 still uses the old hit points formula for solo monsters above level 11. (ie. The level 33 Orcus has 1525 HP in the first, second, and third printings of the 4E MM1. With the corrected hit points formula for solo monsters in the 4E DMG2, a level 33 Orcus should have 1220 HP).

How large was each print run? Knowing a book is in its 6584th printing doesn't mean as much when the print run is only 25 books.

Quote from: jeff37923;396928How large was each print run? Knowing a book is in its 6584th printing doesn't mean as much when the print run is only 25 books.

That's the million dollar question.  WotC has not said anything about how many copies were printed for each printing.

For perspective, here's some print numbers from the 3E days.

Ryan Dancey mentions that 300,000 copies of the 3E PHB were sold in 30 days.  (This was most likely the first printing).

http://rpgpundit.xanga.com/698172157/item/?page=1&jump=1482254924#1482254924

Mike Mearls mentions these figures from 2004:

3E PHB -> between 700,000 and 800,000
3E DMG -> 300,000 to 400,000
3E MM1 -> 200,000 to 300,000

http://indie-rpgs.com/archive/index.php?topic=11075.msg%msg_id%


No idea how accurate Mearls' figures are, considering the post was made before he was hired as a full-time employee by WotC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Mearls

Quote from: ggroy;396930That's the million dollar question.  WotC has not said anything about how many copies were printed for each printing.

Yes, they did. They said their first printing of the 4e core three were expected to last a year. I'm sure subsequent print runs were smaller (and then much smaller), but the first one was hefty.

Seanchai

In the article

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/12654.html

they give a vague description of

QuoteSell-in of 4th Edition has "far exceeded expectations" and even though the initial print run for 4th Edition was 50% higher than the order for the previous D&D 3.5 Edition, WotC has now realized that it is necessary to go back to press to meet anticipated reorder demand.

The catch is that it does not state exactly which printing of 3.5E it is referring to, and does not state the precise number of copies.

Quote from: Seanchai;397024Yes, they did. They said their first printing of the 4e core three were expected to last a year. I'm sure subsequent print runs were smaller (and then much smaller), but the first one was hefty.

Let's look at the 3E PHB numbers, as a rough outline.

In a previous post, there's the Ryan Dancey figure of 300,000 copies of 3E PHB sold in 30 days.  This was most likely the first printing sold at Gencon in August 2000.

http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=396950&postcount=9

On my bookshelf, I have a second, third, and fourth printing of 3E PHB.  The second printing explicitly states that is was printed in November 2000.  The third and fourth printings do not mention any explicit printing dates.  (I have not seen a 5th printing of the 3E PHB yet).

Mike Mearls gave a figure of 700,000 to 800,000 copies of the 3E PHB sold, back in 2004.  If we take the midpoint of Mearls' 3E PHB figures as reliable (ie. 750.000), then 450,000 copies were printed over the second, third, and fourth printings.

If WotC still thought there was still a huge pent-up demand for the 3E PHB in mid/late-2000, perhaps it wouldn't be too surprising if they ended up printing 300,000 copies for the second printing during November 2000.  With a huge pent-up demand for the 3E PHB during mid/late-2000, the question is how long it took to sell out the entire second printing, whether it was 300,000 copies (or less).

Assuming there was still pent-up demand for the 3E PHB in late-2000, this still leaves 150,000 copies for the third and fourth printings during 2001 and early/mid-2002.  Given that WotC usually spends around a year or so developing D&D books, from start to release date, most likely they were already working on the 3.5E core books already sometime in early/mid-2002.  Most likely they did not do another printing of the 3E PHB, by the time it was mid/late-2002.

I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up doing 100,000 copies for the third print sometime during mid-2001.  They probably saw that there was not a huge pent-up demand anymore, by the time the second printing was already sold out sometime in early/mid-2001.  For a fourth printing sometime in late-2001/early-2002, I wouldn't be surprised if it was 50,000 copies.  By then, the 3E PHB book sales probably wasn't as good as they wanted and hence the start of the development of the 3.5E core books.

In contrast, if WotC didn't think there was pent-up demand for the 3E PHB in late-2000, then the second printing would have been less than 300,000 copies.  Whether they printed 100,000 or 200,000 copies, is anyone's guess.

Further Mike Mearls' 2004 figures:

3E DMG -> 300,000 to 400,000
3E MM1 -> 200,000 to 300,000

My copies of the 3E DMG and 3E MM1 are first printings from September 2000 and October 2000 respectively.  So far I have not seen any second printings of the 3E DMG and 3E MM1.

If WotC was caught up in the euphoria of selling 300,000 copies of the 3E PHB in 30 days during Gencon in August 2000, wonder if they gave the green light to print up as many as 300,000 copies each of the 3E DMG and 3E MM1 in September and October 2000 respectively.

I'm not going to say anything bad about WOTC on this thread btw - since I appreciate ggroy probably split off the thread to avoid derailment by flamewar.
Slightly off topic but how do the print run figures line up with the quoted figures of "1.5 million active players"? Its generally assumed that's 4E players, which would have to mean that many 4E PHBs were sold, at a minimum? Possibly more, given people that bought the PHB may still not be playing.

The 1.5 million active players figure is more recent.

http://www.livingdice.com/3690/wizards-of-the-coast-gts-2010-seminar/

They didn't mention whether this 1.5 million figure represents active 4E players, but for the sake of argument let's assume this is the case.

IIRC from the WotC lawsuit documents from early/mid-2009 (I don't have a link offhand), they mentioned sales of 4E core books in the hundreds of thousands.  Though they do not mention explicitly what exactly they mean by "core books".  But for the sake of argument, let's assume "core book" means the 4E PHB1.

Hundreds of thousands of core books can mean anything from 100,000 to 900,000 copies.  (If they sold more than a million copies, most likely they would have mentioned a "million").

Let's take the ratio P/B of active players (P = 1.5 million) to the possible number of core books sold (B).  (P/B could represent the number of players per book).

B = 100,000 -> P/B = 15
B = 200,000 -> P/B = 7.5
B = 300,000 -> P/B = 5
B = 400,000 -> P/B = 3.75
B = 500,000 -> P/B = 3
B = 600,000 -> P/B = 2.5
B = 700,000 -> P/B = 2.14
B = 800,000 -> P/B = 1.88
B = 900,000 -> P/B = 1.67


In the case of 200k or 300k core books sold, the P/B ratio is around 5 to 7.5 which could mean that only one person in a typical gaming group (ie. 5 players and 1 DM), bought the core book.

In the case of 400k or 500k core books sold, the P/B ratio is around 3 to 3.75 which could mean that two people in a typical gaming group bought the core book.

In the case of 600k or 700k core books sold, the P/B radio is around 2.14 to 2.5 which could mean that three people in a typical gaming group bought the core book.

Most likely they sold more than 100k core books, since a P/B ratio of 15 would mean that two typical gaming groups (ie. 12 people) would only have one core book.

A P/B ratio of 6 would be equivalent to B = 250k core books.  A P/B ratio of 6 could mean that one person in a typical gaming group would have the core book.


Hmmm .... From these numbers, the inference is inconclusive beyond 100k or 250k core books.  To determine anything further, one would have to have a reliable figure for the number of 4E PHB1 core books at a typical gaming table.

For example, in my 4E games both past and present, usually two or three of the people had a 4E PHB1 book.  Other 4E games played at the same venues, typically had two or three people having a 4E PHB1 book.  If one really wanted to stretch the inference further, then having two PHB1 books at an average typical gaming group table could mean B = 500k core books.  Similarly, having three PHB1 books at an average typical gaming group table could mean B = 750k core books.

If the number of "active players" (P = 1.5 million) is problematic or wrong, this analysis goes completely out the window.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;397058I'm not going to say anything bad about WOTC on this thread btw - since I appreciate ggroy probably split off the thread to avoid derailment by flamewar.
Slightly off topic but how do the print run figures line up with the quoted figures of "1.5 million active players"? Its generally assumed that's 4E players, which would have to mean that many 4E PHBs were sold, at a minimum? Possibly more, given people that bought the PHB may still not be playing.

Hasn't that number pretty much always been how many active D&D players they have bandied about since late 2e or so?

The previous "naive" analysis assumes that gaming groups actually own and used the real actual hardcover PHB1 books at one point.  The analysis will be off if there are a significant number of groups which only use 4E pdfs, whether legit or pirated.

For example, if as high as half of the gaming groups are actually using pirated pdfs without buying any real hardcover 4E books, then the case of selling only 100k or 250k PHB1 books may actually have some meaning.  For the B=125k case (ie. 125,000 core books) the P/B ratio is 12, which means two average gaming groups (ie. 12 people) only have one copy of the real hardcover 4E PHB1 core book.  In such a case, one of the two groups could be playing 4E perfectly fine with legit or pirated pdfs of the 4E PHB1 (with nobody buying a real hardcover 4E PHB1).

EDIT:  If this analysis has any substance, perhaps it may partially explain WotC's yanking of the pdfs back in early/mid-2009.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;397064Hasn't that number pretty much always been how many active D&D players they have bandied about since late 2e or so?

There was a 2.25 million active monthly players figure, which dates back to WotC's marketing research study from 1999.

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/WotCMarketResearchSummary.html

Let's take a closer look at the ICv2 article,

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/12654.html

in regards to the statement:

Quote from: Published: 05/30/2008 12:00amA WotC spokesperson has informed ICv2 that Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition has already gone back to press more than a week before its scheduled street date next Friday, June 6th.  Sell-in of 4th Edition has “far exceeded expectations” and even though the initial print run for 4th Edition was 50% higher than the order for the previous D&D 3.5 Edition, WotC has now realized that it is necessary to go back to press to meet anticipated reorder demand.

Notice that they mentioned 3.5E and not 3E.  If they had indeed printed up at least 300,000 copies of the 4E PHB1, most likely they would have mentioned 3E and not 3.5E.  (They probably would have also done a "we beat Ryan Dancey's ass" party dance).  :D

Recall that Ryan Dancey likes to brag about selling 300,000 copies of the 3E PHB1 in 30 days back in August 2000.

http://rpgpundit.xanga.com/698172157/item/?page=1&jump=1482254924#1482254924

So if we take 300,000 as the upper limit of the possible number of 4E PHB1 books printed in April/May 2008, then the statement "50% higher than the order for the previous D&D 3.5 Edition" could mean that the upper limit of the "order of 3.5E books" is 200,000.

One could ask what exactly is this "order of 3.5E books" and when did it happen.  The nature of the ICv2 article suggests most likely it is the first printing of the 3.5E PHB1 back in mid-2003 (ie. July 2003).

In another post, Ryan Dancey asserts that the 3.5E PHB1 sold 100,000 copies (or more) in 2003.  (Scroll to the bottom of the page in the link).

http://indie-rpgs.com/archive/index.php?topic=11075.msg%msg_id%

With these two pieces of information, the 3.5E PHB1 probably had 100,000 to 200,000 copies printed as its first printing in mid-2003.


Let's reverse things and start off with Ryan Dancey's lower limit of 100,000 copies of the 3.5E PHB1 being printed in mid-2003 as the first printing.  The ICv2 article statement of "50% higher than the order for the previous D&D 3.5 Edition" now means that the first printing of the 4E PHB1 (before the "necessary to go back to press" phase), consisted of 150,000 copies.

The number of copies of the 4E PHB1 printed in the "necessary to go back to press" phase, is unknown at this point.

With the numbers calculated so far, one could infer that the number of 4E PHB1 printed in the first printing (April/May 2008), is probably between 150,000 and 300,000.  The 300,000 copies figure would correspond to the case where the "necessary to go back to press" phase produced exactly zero additional copies of the 4E PHB1 (ie. 200,000 copies with an additional 50% added in gives 300,000 copies).


Within these constraints, the sets of "print numbers" which follows the logic of the ICv2 article are:

- "the initial print run for 4th Edition was 50% higher than the order for the previous D&D 3.5 Edition"

3.5E PHB1 first print run = 100,000
initial 4E PHB1 print run = 100,000 + 0.50*(100,000) = 150,000

3.5E PHB1 first print run = 110,000
initial 4E PHB1 print run = 110,000 + 0.50*(110,000) = 165,000

3.5E PHB1 first print run = 120,000
initial 4E PHB1 print run = 180,000

3.5E PHB1 first print run = 130,000
initial 4E PHB1 print run = 195,000

3.5E PHB1 first print run = 140,000
initial 4E PHB1 print run = 210,000

3.5E PHB1 first print run = 150,000
initial 4E PHB1 print run = 225,000

3.5E PHB1 first print run = 160,000
initial 4E PHB1 print run = 240,000

3.5E PHB1 first print run = 170,000
initial 4E PHB1 print run = 255,000

3.5E PHB1 first print run = 180,000
initial 4E PHB1 print run = 270,000

3.5E PHB1 first print run = 190,000
initial 4E PHB1 print run = 285,000

3.5E PHB1 first print run = 200,000
initial 4E PHB1 print run = 300,000

QuoteNotice that they mentioned 3.5E and not 3E. If they had indeed printed up at least 300,000 copies of the 4E PHB1, most likely they would have mentioned 3E and not 3.5E. (They probably would have also done a "we beat Ryan Dancey's ass" party dance).

Ummm...Mearls essentially did the "we beat Ryan Dancey's ass" party on his blog (http://mearls.livejournal.com/150306.html).  3.5 did in fact print more than 3.0.

QuotePrint run size:

3.0 < 3.5 < 4e

.

Also, you are ignoring the Amazon data.  There are fairly good (and long) descriptions of how to count estimated print runs based on Amazon data for ranking over a period of time.  I think some folks did the calculation, and also came out with higher numbers than either 3.5 or 3.0.

Finally, we have this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080808):

QuoteBill Slavicsek wrote:From a business perspective, the core rulebooks are already well into their third printing, the H1 and H2 adventures are both in reprint. The new Dungeon Tiles product, DU1 Halls of the Giant Kings, is almost gone from our inventory less than one month after going on sale. This means that, using the current trends, we’re going to crush our original projections for 4th Edition in 2008!

My recollection from others that did this estimate is that the 4.0 PHB sold over 500,000 copies after the second print run.

Quote from: Mistwell;397073I could have sworn someone from WOTC said the first print of PHB 1 of 3.5 was larger than the first print of PHB 1 of 3.0.

Link?

Quote from: Mistwell;397073Also, you are ignoring the Amazon data.  There are fairly good (and long) descriptions of how to count estimated print runs based on Amazon data for ranking over a period of time.

Link?

Quote from: Mistwell;397073Finally, we have this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080808):

It would be nice to see actual real copies of the third printings of 4E PHB1 and 4E DMG1.  So far I have not been able to verify either one's existence.

Quote from: Mistwell;397073Ummm...Mearls essentially did the "we beat Ryan Dancey's ass" party on his blog (http://mearls.livejournal.com/150306.html).  3.5 did in fact print more than 3.0.

QuotePrint run size:

3.0 < 3.5 < 4e

Mike Mearls' numbers for the 3E printings, from 2004:

http://indie-rpgs.com/archive/index.php?topic=11075.msg%msg_id%

Quote from: Mike Mearls in 2004- 3e PHB at between 700,000 and 800,000
- 300,000 to 400,000 DMGs
- 200,000 to 300,000 MMs

If we take Mearls at his word, he is asserting that on 2008-05-30, more than 700,000 to 800,000 copies of the 4E core books were published.

EDIT:  If what Mearls meant was the 4E "core books" as the PHB1/DMG1/MM1, then his assertion of "3 < 3.5 < 4e" implies that more than 1.2 million to 1.5 million copies of the 4E core books were publish by 2008-05-30.  This is in contradiction with the early/mid-2009 WotC lawsuit documents which allegedly asserts that the 4E core books sold in the hundreds of thousands.  (I haven't been able to find the lawsuit links to verify for sure.  I'll try to do it later).

Quote from: Mistwell;397073My recollection from others that did this estimate is that the 4.0 PHB sold over 500,000 copies after the second print run.

Link?

I do not have a link to the full Amazon information, or the 500K speculation.  But, it was just someone doing what you are doing, not someone from WOTC.  I believe it was at EnWorld, but I am not certain.  I know it involved a large compilation of Amazon data and it was not perfect.  It was just a means to give some best and worst case scenarios, not a firm average.

As far as what Mearls meant by that print run statement, I thought at the time he meant just PHB1 for each edition but I could be wrong.  Maybe he did mean core? Or maybe he is comparing first prints to first prints? The statement is a bit vague.

I would not be shocked to find the 4e core sold 850K, but printed 1.2M, though my instincts tell me those numbers are high.

Quote from: Mistwell;397079I do not have a link to the full Amazon information, or the 500K speculation.  But, it was just someone doing what you are doing, not someone from WOTC.

The 500k speculation I don't recall offhand.

I vaguely remember something about doing counts on amazon.  I'll have to do some searching to find it again.

Quote from: ggroy;397065The previous "naive" analysis assumes that gaming groups actually own and used the real actual hardcover PHB1 books at one point.  The analysis will be off if there are a significant number of groups which only use 4E pdfs, whether legit or pirated.

For example, if as high as half of the gaming groups are actually using pirated pdfs without buying any real hardcover 4E books, then the case of selling only 100k or 250k PHB1 books may actually have some meaning.  For the B=125k case (ie. 125,000 core books) the P/B ratio is 12, which means two average gaming groups (ie. 12 people) only have one copy of the real hardcover 4E PHB1 core book.  In such a case, one of the two groups could be playing 4E perfectly fine with legit or pirated pdfs of the 4E PHB1 (with nobody buying a real hardcover 4E PHB1).

EDIT:  If this analysis has any substance, perhaps it may partially explain WotC's yanking of the pdfs back in early/mid-2009.

Probably to determine # active players they would have used PHB sales, adding in a multiplier for book-sharers and pdf moochers. Its probably only useful as an "upper limit" figure for sales - though they could also have applied a reduction for purchasers who don't play, so there's a fair bit of latitude either way.

Quote from: Mistwell;397079As far as what Mearls meant by that print run statement, I thought at the time he meant just PHB1 for each edition but I could be wrong.  Maybe he did mean core? Or maybe he is comparing first prints to first prints? The statement is a bit vague.

Noticed Mearls didn't answer your question on the "3 < 3.5 < 4e" comment, about print run details specifics.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;397081Probably to determine # active players they would have used PHB sales, adding in a multiplier for book-sharers and pdf moochers. Its probably only useful as an "upper limit" figure for sales - though they could also have applied a reduction for purchasers who don't play, so there's a fair bit of latitude either way.

That "fudge factor" multiplier, is probably quite difficult to determine in general.

Found this link for calculating weekly sales from ranking - there probably are better sites out there though, and it wouldn't surprise me if someone on EnWorld or RPGnet might already have done the full calculations.

http://www.fonerbooks.com/surfing.htm (http://www.fonerbooks.com/surfing.htm)

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;397084Found this link for calculating weekly sales from ranking - there probably are better sites out there though, and it wouldn't surprise me if someone on EnWorld or RPGnet might already have done the full calculations.

http://www.fonerbooks.com/surfing.htm (http://www.fonerbooks.com/surfing.htm)

Thanks BSJ.

That was one of the pages I vaguely remember.  (I think it may be the graphs).

From the comments around the Mearls "3 < 3.5 < 4" quote on his blog, there is a subtle hint of joking.  Mearls may have just been engaging in humor.

http://mearls.livejournal.com/150306.html

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;397081Probably to determine # active players they would have used PHB sales, adding in a multiplier for book-sharers and pdf moochers. Its probably only useful as an "upper limit" figure for sales - though they could also have applied a reduction for purchasers who don't play, so there's a fair bit of latitude either way.

As a first approximation, this "multiplier" could correspond to the P/B ratio of the number of active players (P) to the number of 4E PHB1 books sold (B).

Taking the numbers deduced from the ICv2 post (May 2008) and other sources (Ryan Dancey's numbers), the number of first printing 4E PHB1 books could be B=150,000 to B=300,000.  These would correspond to a P/B ratio of 10 and 5 respectively.


From Mistwell's quoted numbers,

http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=397079&postcount=25

the number of 4E PHB1 books could be B=500,000 to B=850,000.  These would correspond to a P/B ratio of 3 and 1.76 respectively.


From these numbers, one could infer this "multiplier" being in the range 1 to 10.  The case of 1 means every active player has bought a 4E PHB1 book.  The case of 10 means that approximately on average for every two groups (ie. 12 players), one player bought a copy of the 4E PHB1 book.

EDIT:  I suspect it would be worrisome for WotC, if this "multipler" was more towards the upper range closer to 10 (or over 10).  Generally a "multipler" greater than 6, means that there exists 4E gaming groups which are not buying any of the 4E PHB1 hardcover books.  It would be cause for concern if it turns out the "multipler" is greater than 12, which means on average every second 4E gaming group is not buying any 4E PHB1 books.

Quote from: ggroy;397087From the comments around the Mearls "3 < 3.5 < 4" quote on his blog, there is a subtle hint of joking.  Mearls may have just been engaging in humor.

http://mearls.livejournal.com/150306.html

I think you have to purposely read something into it to come out with that conclusion.  To be objective, I think we have to take his word for it.  In fact, that particular quote doesn't make a whole lot of sense read as a joke...the joke part was about gamma world, not the print run of 3.0, 3.5, and 4.0.

He didn't answer my later question, but then it WAS a later question and he doesn't usually go back to older posts he's made in his blog to answer questions.  I think the most likely explanation is he never even read my question.

Quote from: ggroy;397096EDIT:  I suspect it would be worrisome for WotC, if this "multipler" was more towards the upper range closer to 10 (or over 10).  Generally a "multipler" greater than 6, means that there exists 4E gaming groups which are not buying any of the 4E PHB1 hardcover books.  It would be cause for concern if it turns out the "multipler" is greater than 12, which means on average every second 4E gaming group is not buying any 4E PHB1 books.

Based on WOTC's announcements about illegal PDF downloads and the court case, it does in fact seem to be a worry of theirs that many people play the game without buying the books.

I'm curious, as I've never worked in a gaming store, but how is RPG distribution handled?

I mean, does WotC ship directly to retailers or do they go through distributors much like Marvel and DC comics do?

Quote from: Mistwell;397108In fact, that particular quote doesn't make a whole lot of sense read as a joke...the joke part was about gamma world, not the print run of 3.0, 3.5, and 4.0.

At this point we can give him the benefit of the doubt.

Quote from: Mistwell;397110Based on WOTC's announcements about illegal PDF downloads and the court case, it does in fact seem to be a worry of theirs that many people play the game without buying the books.

I remember in some 3E/3.5E games I played in and a few other gaming groups I was aware of, nobody had any of the real hardcover D&D books.  In one game I played in, they just used the 3.5E SRD and cribbed information from either borrowing a 3E or 3.5E PHB1 from the library, or using a pirated pdf of it.

Earlier today I dropped by two of the places I went to last week.  (One big box bookstore and a gaming store).

I sat down and took a closer look at two books, to examine it for errata:

- second printing of MM2
- fourth printing of PHB2.

It appears there are few errata corrections (if any) incorporated into these subsequent printings.  For example:

- In the fourth printing PHB2, there were no errata corrections done for the following class powers:

Avenger:  Twin Step
Barbarian:  Rage Strike, Devastating Strike, Howling Strike, Recuperating Strike
Druid:  Wild Shape, Call of the Beast
Invoker:  Blood Debt

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdatePH2.pdf
 

- In the second printing MM2, there were no errata corrections done for the following entries:

page 8 - Angel of Retrieval
page 9 - Angel of Light
page 96 - Eladrin Arcane Archer
page 158 - Wereboar
page 216 - Aura.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdateMM2.pdf

I also sat down and looked further at the second and third printings of MM1.

In particular, I examined the hit points of the solo monsters.  With a calculator, I determined that the level 11 and higher solos were using the old hit points formula from the 4E DMG1.

The old hit points formula for solos monsters from the 4E DMG1 was:

[ 8*(level + 1) + CON]*4 -> level 1 to 10

[ 8*(level + 1) + CON]*5 -> level 11 and higher

The new hit points formula for all solos from the 4E DMG2 is:

[ 8*(level + 1) + CON]*4


I also did the hit points calculations of the solo monsters in the 4E MM2.  It follows the new hit points formula from DMG2.

Today I also saw the Orcus figure on the shelf at the gaming store, and noticed the Orcus stat card (printed on the box) mentioned that Orcus is level 34 and has 1252 hit points.  Doing the hit points calculation, this is consistent with the new hit points formula from the 4E DMG2, assuming Orcus has a CON of 33.  (Orcus from MM1, has a CON of 33).

Quote from: Shazbot79;397129I'm curious, as I've never worked in a gaming store, but how is RPG distribution handled?

I mean, does WotC ship directly to retailers or do they go through distributors much like Marvel and DC comics do?

At one gaming store nearby, the manager mentioned they get most of their stuff from Diamond/Alliance.  This particular store stocks all kinds of stuff like comic books, card games, manga, warhammer, rpg games, etc ...  Occasionally they use another distributor.

At another bigger store in town, they order boxes full of 4E hardcover books of the same title.  It looks like one of these boxes can hold around 15 to 20 hardcover splatbooks.  (I don't know what the quantity discount is on ordering such a large carton all at once).  I haven't asked the manager yet, as to where they ordered these large boxes of 4E books from.

A lot goes through Diamond.  Here is their upcoming list for example:

http://previewsworld.com/public/default.asp?t=2&m=1&c=23&s=134

I am not a fan of Diamond.  They have essentially a monopoly on a lot of lines of products, and are ruthless in destroying potential competition.

Anyway, back in 2002, this is what their distribution network looked like:

http://www.icv2.com/articles/indepth/920.html

Wonder if the anti-trust people at the DOJ have looked into Diamond/Alliance over the last decade.

On a side note, Barnes & Noble is putting itself up for sale.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6725JJ20100804

http://money.cnn.com/2010/08/03/news/companies/barnes_noble_sale/index.htm?source=cnn_bin&hpt=Sbin

Quote from: ggroy;397165At another bigger store in town, they order boxes full of 4E hardcover books of the same title.  It looks like one of these boxes can hold around 15 to 20 hardcover splatbooks.  (I don't know what the quantity discount is on ordering such a large carton all at once).  I haven't asked the manager yet, as to where they ordered these large boxes of 4E books from.

So if game stores don't get their books directly from WotC, is it possible that the entire stock of first and second run PHB's have been sold to Diamond and the third runs are backstock taking up space in WoTC warehouses?

Quote from: Shazbot79;397189So if game stores don't get their books directly from WotC, is it possible that the entire stock of first and second run PHB's have been sold to Diamond and the third runs are backstock taking up space in WoTC warehouses?

The WotC catalogs have some vague information about ordering:

http://www.randomhouse.biz/international/PDFs/wotcspr11.pdf

I'm still not entirely sure what the procedure is to order direct from WotC or Random House (WotC's distributor in the book trade business).

Whatever happened to the third printings of the 4E PHB1, is anybody's guess at this point.  (This is assuming a third printing was actually done to begin with).

Quote from: ggroy;397186Wonder if the anti-trust people at the DOJ have looked into Diamond/Alliance over the last decade.

Apparently nobody cares because the market is so miniscule and the aggrieved parties don't even remotely have the cash to try to fight them.

Quote from: ggroy;397186Wonder if the anti-trust people at the DOJ have looked into Diamond/Alliance over the last decade.

I seem to recall there was a potential competitor that tried and failed to challenge them through the DOJ, affiliated with a comic company that also went out of business.  I think they were out of Florida? It was many years ago.

There is also Fat Jack's, Global Hobo, Haven Distributors, and Last Gasp.  But they are all small.

I know that Hachette does some distribution for Marvel, and Random House does some for DC, so there is that at least.  Some speculate that, with Disney buying Marvel and owning their own book distributors, they may fold Marvel's distribution into that outlet eventually.

Who else can chip away at Diamond/Alliance, besides amazon?

Over the years I've noticed the number one complaint of many gaming store owners/managers, is amazon.  They're just not able to compete with the discounts that amazon can offer.  People end up buying the 4E D&D books from amazon with a 34% discount off MSRP (or more), instead of buying at gaming stores.

They don't seem to complain about Diamond/Alliance as much, but there is the occasional grumbling about them.

For perspective, I went through the 3E PHB to determine whether the different printings have any additional errata incorporated.  (I have the second, third, and fourth printings of the 3E PHB).

Using the 3E PHB "rules corrections" and "clarifications" documents:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a

I've come to the conclusion that the second printing of the 3E PHB had the errata corrections incorporated into the text, but the subsequent printings (ie. third and fourth printings) appear to be just straight copies of the second printing with no additional errata corrections added in.

For example, the "Shocking Grasp" errata for page 251 was not incorporated at all into any of the second, third, or fourth printings of the 3E PHB.  (The errata states that for "Shocking Grasp", the Duration line of "Permanent until discharged" should be replaced with "Permanent until dispelled").  Most likely this page 251 errata was discovered and corrected after the second printing of 3E PHB was already done (ie. after November 2000).  The 3E PHB "rules corrections" and "clarification" documents, both had a date of August 21, 2001.

I have followed this thread and some of the other similar threads that ggroy started on other sites, but until last night I couldn't be bothered to look and see when my own books were printed.  It would seem that my PHB1 is from the third print run.  The backward numbers in the lower left-hand corner of page 2 end at 3.  Right below that is says "First Printing: June 2008."

I bought my PHB in late January of '09 at the Source in the Twin Cities area.  It's a huge store.

One other thing: there was some talk about 4e Amazon sales a ways back in this thread.  I remember that when the core book set was #2 on the sales list, #1 was held by Dick Morris' absurdly titled Fleeced: How Barack Obama, Media Mockery of Terrorist Threats, Liberals Who Want to Kill Talk Radio, the Do-Nothing Congress, Companies That Help Iran, and Washington Lobbyists for Foreign Governments Are Scamming Us ... and What to Do About It.  According to this article (http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/news/2008-08-05-obamabooks_N.htm) on the sales of anti-Barak Obama books from 8/5/08, Fleeced had 210,000 copies in print total around that time.  Unfortunately they don't associate an exact date with that number.  Not much information, but it's something.  

I have read that when books of a political nature come out, ideological supporters sometimes buy up large numbers of copies to generate impressive sales figures and buzz, and that they sell them back at cost later.  In this case the Morris book didn't come out until June 24, so one might speculate that there were a lot of pre-orders but that a large quantity of them were cancelled before 6/24.  If, that is, people were indeed trying to skew the Amazon rankings that way.  I am also assuming you can just pre-order and cancel like that, I don't really know.

I have also read that June is typically a slow time of year for book sales.

Quote from: The Defenestrator;398003I have followed this thread and some of the other similar threads that ggroy started on other sites, but until last night I couldn't be bothered to look and see when my own books were printed.  It would seem that my PHB1 is from the third print run.  The backward numbers in the lower left-hand corner of page 2 end at 3.  Right below that is says "First Printing: June 2008."

I bought my PHB in late January of '09 at the Source in the Twin Cities area.  It's a huge store.

Interesting.  Thanks for the update.

I have another question, if you don't mind me asking.  Does the third printing PHB1 have any errata corrections included?  The obvious stuff would be the updated stealth rules, the wizard's "dispel magic" being change from a daily to encounter power, etc ...

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdatePH.pdf

Wonder how many copies of the third printing PHB1 are already out in the market (ie. game stores, bookstores, etc ...) and/or bought by people, and how many are still stuck in a warehouse.  So far I haven't seen a copy of the third printing PHB1 yet.

Quote from: ggroy;398061I have another question, if you don't mind me asking.  Does the third printing PHB1 have any errata corrections included?  

I'd be very surprised if it did.

Seanchai

I'd be flat out stunned, never heard of any 4e books that have been fixed with any errata.

Dropped by a nearby bigbox bookstore earlier today.

They actually had a third printing of the 4E PHB1 in stock.  (The last time I was there, they had a second printing and several first printing copies of the 4E PHB1).

Looking through this third printing 4E PHB1, it's the same story.  No obvious errata corrections added in.  (ie. Stealth, etc ...).  It even still has the old "Gleemax" ad on the very last page of the book.

There was still a second printing 4E DMG1 book on the shelf.  This copy also still had the old "Gleemax" ad on the very last page of the book.

There was still a third printing 4E PHB2 book on the shelf.  This copy had the same ad on the very last page as the first printing of 4E PHB2.

Without going through these books line by line in exhaustive detail, the last pages with the old ads suggests these subsequent printings may very well be just straight reprints.  They didn't even bother updating the old "Gleemax" ad.  One would think the first thing they would change is the ad, to something more recent.

Quote from: ggroy;401523One would think the first thing they would change is the ad, to something more recent.

Generally, you have to pay less for a reprint.

Seanchai

Generally, you would need a reason for a reprint.

With 1st and 2nd printings still on the shelf, and with the book being horribly outdated, reprinting it without any changes - to me, again - smacks of a crass money-grab.

"Keep those old, incorrect books on the shelf, who cares if they're wrong. Once they drop $35 in our pocket, they'll just jump online and use DDI anyway."

We don't know when exactly these second and third printings were done.

In principle they could have been sitting in WotC's warehouse for over a year or longer.

Maybe. they're still releaseing "defective" or outdated product at the same price as when it was up-to-date and accurate.

Quote from: ggroy;401531In principle they could have been sitting in WotC's warehouse for over a year or longer.

Or someone else's warehouse.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;401542Or someone else's warehouse.

Most likely Amazon, Borders, Barnes & Noble, Alliance, Random House, etc ... and their international counterparts.