Quote from: Cranewings;466915Because you want the old game without the problems.

With the exception of 3.0, I don't think any of the AD&D-lineage games were intended as improvements. Not primarily, at least.

Let's count OD&D as part of that lineage as well. We see

AD&D1e - Cuts Arnesen out of the financial loop while trying to standardize play for tournaments.

AD&D2e - Cuts Gygax out of the financial loop with minimal changes, but enough to create perpetual butt-hurt in some corners of the Web, while retaining garbage rules like exceptional strength.

AD&D2.5e - Tries to expand the game.... It's not really about dropping the turds as you say, but rather adding more to the pot.

D&D3e - Clean up of 2.5e. Some changes were not improvements, but all were intended to be. This revision of D&D was made in good faith.

D&D3.5e - Sort of a planned obsolescence edition. Some changes were probably improvements, but that wasn't really the point.

D&D4e - The "oh-noes-what-the-fuck-did-we-do-with-our-IP?" edition. Lots of changes due to the OGL error; other changes made to target WoW fans.

D&DEssentials - "Let's repackage this shit. Maybe we'll rope in the nostalgia crowd/lapsed gamers."

Pathfinder - "Hey, if they don't want to publish it, we will." Some attempts to clean up 3.5, but not wanting to alienate fans, Paizo hewed relatively close to the previous edition.

Anyway, interesting post. I wasn't going to analyze the BD&D-lineage, but fuck it, why not?

Holmes - "OD&D is really disorganized." Gygax: "Let's add product placement for AD&D."
Moldvay - A genuine, good-faith revision.
Mentzer - A genuine, good-faith revision. Virtually identical rules-wise to Moldvay/Marsh/Cook, but includes new stuff like didactic intro modules.
Black Box Basic 1&2* - Repackaging; marketing move. Some gestures towards trying to find a better way to teach the game. Cards, etc.
Rules Cyclopedia - Some clean-up, but mostly a far more convenient rendition of BECM.

* In fairness, these are the ones I know least about.

Faserip, I hear ya. I wasn't really talking about the published versions. I always figured the published versions were written in a waffle house by two guys in a single day. That's why we've gotten awesome stuff like barbarian advancement beyond 5th level: rage 2/day, rage 3/day, rage 4/day.

I was really talking about house rules.

Quote from: jibbajibba;467236No they are not we already agreed as per the rules that HP are an abstract mix of luck, energy, skill, the sword doesn't bit deep it just nicks you etc. A 6the level fighter isn't actually as tough as a stone wall or team of horses... you know how it goes.... if you agree to all that and then say only Con increases your Hit points then you are actually saying 'my guy is a tough as a warhorse'

Wrong, hit points are mostly increased by gaining experience and the fighting skill that goes with that experience. Physical toughness plays a role, but not the main one. Hit points are the answer to the question "How hard is it to kill this character?", not "How physically tough is this character?"

QuoteYes but hit points healing at a rate of 1hp per day is not abstracts it represents actual wounds healing. Otherwise it would be a % of lost hp recovered per day/hour/month or whatever....

How long do you think it takes for someone to heal completely from a bunch of injuries?

QuoteUm that would be the rules of the game. Unless you want to say a rust monster can hit a guy in full plate as if he had AC 10 ...

Actually that is how I rule, and so do most DMs I've played for. Not that it matters since rust monsters don't inflict damage other than destroying metal. I don't see what the problem is with a DM ruling that certain forms of attack (like siege weapons btb) are not stopped or reduced by armor  -and in some cases, armor makes things worse (like certain electrical attacks). Just because the AC system doesn't spell out every possibility in combat doesn't mean it's a bad system.

QuotePossibly but then you have those pesky rules again..... tsk typical of them getting in the way.

How exactly are the rules "getting in the way" when a DM is left to use his best judgement and common sense because no game can cover every possible scenario? If anything, the rules are staying out of the way.

QuoteThe peeve though is that because of the hp paradigm you have to have magical healing or the game breaks as to make the game competative an 8th level fighter is supposed to loose 30 hp in a fight and it would take them a month to recover from that so you need magical healing and lots of it.

Or the 8th-level fighter can take a month off to recuperate OR the fighter can risk adventuring with injuries that haven't yet healed. If anything the healing rules in 1E are quite generous because:

Quote from: 1E PHBRegardless of the number of hit points a character has, 4 weeks of continuous rest will restore any character to full strength.

If four weeks seems like a long time, keep in mind that most modern athletes who take part in contact or collision sports are afflicted with all kinds of injuries and are seldom if ever "healed up" during the season. This is with modern medicine, too.

QuoteThe alternate would be a sytem where you avoid getting hit

You mean like armor, agility, magical protection and clever tactics allowing the PC to avoid being hit? Oh wait! That's called Armor Class!

Quotebut when you get hit you get a wound.

Like losing hit points?

QuoteBeing hit is rarer so the need for magical healing deminishes.

If your PCs engage in close-quarters combat on a regular basis, odds are they are going to take hits and have injuries, to say nothing of traps. If you think your PCs are taking too much damage needlessly, try playing smarter -like avoiding combat when possible, or at least making sure it happens on your terms.

QuoteI'll give you that one for some gods, though I can't see Billy Graham, casting out spirits and healing the sick on the streets of Basra.

Not much money to fleece out of the people there. If there were, he'd be there (or his acolytes). Just Google the words pat, robertson, blood, and diamonds.