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Author Topic: Preferred OSR initiative?  (Read 12111 times)

Marchand

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2020, 12:33:10 PM »
I find almost all initiative systems to be ridiculous and I ascribe the persistence of this type of mechanic to laziness. Or more precisely, a triumph of gamer mentality over common sense and over any interest in emulating the fictional genre or historical period that is supposed to have inspired the game in the first place.

At its limit you get nonsense like a guy with a bow and arrow standing there while somebody runs up and bashes him over the head.

Mythras tries to soften initiative with action points but the price is it ups the complexity quite a bit (or looks like it would, I've never got to play). The old Runequest strike ranks were not a bad solution, but a bit static.

I haven't come across a system I'm particularly happy with. I'd like to see a system that captures the ebb and flow feel you get from fights in cinema or from what little boxing I've seen. One side has the advantage and presses it until they try to land a telling blow, and either make it or fluff it and let the other guy come back. There's tension in the choice between playing it safe and gradually wearing the other guy down, or taking a gamble to put him down quickly.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 12:35:50 PM by Marchand »
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NeonAce

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2020, 12:34:21 PM »
OSR is not my main jam, but I'm gonna go with the standard side-based d6 initiative rules from B/X page B23 (or any variant that is in that ballpark). I think in D&D individual initiative slows everything down for no real gain, and that side-based initiative also results in players cooperating and coordinating their efforts better, like a team getting together, calling their play, then running it. It also keeps players engaged, instead of checking out while other characters run their actions, IMO. Relatedly, I don't think D&D's combat system is super fun to run as a game in itself, but it works well enough in B/X when considered to be just one of the things that pops up sometimes during the the 10 minute dungeon turn structure. I think the loss of the 10 minute turn structure, or it's de-emphasis as editions progressed (or even its de-emphasis in some modern OSR materials) is a bit unfortunate.

estar

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2020, 01:28:08 PM »
This is the latest version of my Majestic Fantasy Rules
http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/MW%20Majestic%20Fantasy%20Basic%20RPG%20Rev%2010.pdf

As far as initiative goes I use 1d6 + dexterity bonus + to hit bonus if a fighter. This mean individually per player.

My combat sequence is built around the idea that you can do a half-move and attack.

Ratman_tf

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2020, 01:56:38 PM »
I like individual initiative even in OSR games, because if the opponents take all their turns at once, then it can lead to situations that the PCs can't react to in time, like a devastating Alpha Strike that effectivley decides the outcome of the encounter before the players even take their first turn.
At least every PC rolls init, and then "batches" of opponents roll (Orcs with bows, orcs with axes, orc shaman with spells.) if there's a lot of opponents.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 01:59:17 PM by Ratman_tf »
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Heavy Josh

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2020, 07:01:32 PM »
I like the initiative system in Savage Worlds so much I've grafted onto my Stars Without Number games with little effort. The tactile nature of having cards, holding your action by just holding your card, and the epic joy of drawing a Joker have made it lots of fun.

Because of the pandemic and moving to Roll20 for the duration, we've reverted to the RAW: d8 for each PC, add Dex modifier, only roll once in the combat. It's fast, but less fun. But the card drawing mechanics of Roll20 leave much to be desired.
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Zalman

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2020, 11:28:31 AM »
I like initiative fast and very simple. If it's obvious who goes first (one side is waiting to see what happens, only one side has ranged attacks, etc.) we don't roll. If we do need to roll, it's d6, per side, once per encounter. Ties are simultaneous.

Any surprise is entirely determined by the circumstances of stealth vs perception, and if one side surprises the other they automatically win initiative and have bonuses during the first round.

In my experience, rolling initiative each round makes a huge difference in how long each battle lasts, and how dynamic it feels.
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nDervish

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2020, 11:52:26 AM »
Quote from: Marchand;1127773
I haven't come across a system I'm particularly happy with. I'd like to see a system that captures the ebb and flow feel you get from fights in cinema or from what little boxing I've seen. One side has the advantage and presses it until they try to land a telling blow, and either make it or fluff it and let the other guy come back. There's tension in the choice between playing it safe and gradually wearing the other guy down, or taking a gamble to put him down quickly.


Ars Magica 4th edition does something like that.  It still uses conventional initiative (d10 + modifiers, but modifiers are large enough that the d10 can become little more than a formality), but both to-hit and damage are opposed rolls (Attack vs. Defense and Damage vs. Soak, respectively), with the margin of success on the to-hit roll being applied as a bonus on the damage roll - if you choose to do damage.  Instead of doing damage, you also have the option of carrying that margin over to the next round and using it as a bonus on either your Attack roll or your Defense roll, thus allowing you to build up an arbitrarily large carryover bonus over the course of multiple turns until you finally blow it all to land a solid blow.

I've also read (but not played) another system which does what you describe - unfortunately, I can't seem to recall what system it was - by implementing a split similar to the split between "luck HP" and "meat HP" that some have implemented as house rules in D&D.  The "meat HP" are a static quantity for each character, but the "luck HP" are rolled anew at the beginning of each fight.  In order to inflict meaningful damage, your damage roll has to exceed your opponent's remaining "luck HP", but attacking "luck HP" is a different action than attacking "meat HP" and, when after you attempt to damage the "meat HP", they reroll their "luck HP", regardless of whether you do actual damage or not.  So the flow of combat would be that you repeatedly attack their "luck HP" to wear it down until you think you can successfully get through to inflict actual damage on their "meat HP", then the "luck HP" resets and you fence for position (wearing down the "luck HP") again.  The "luck HP" in this system is called Stance, or Poise, or something like that, making it clear that the process this is intended to model is that you're working to create an opening in their defense and then, when you attempt to exploit that opening, they reposition themselves, and cover the weakness you targeted.

But, then, neither of those subsystems are based on initiative, and neither game is OSR (in the "emulating early-era D&D" sense)...

Chris24601

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2020, 12:41:26 PM »
I'm quite fond of what the Arcanis developers did when they tried building their own game system. Most of it was a wreck, but their initiative and action system was gold.

Each combatant rolls a number of d10s based on their reflexss attribute and takes the LOWEST. Combat starts at a count of one and goes up. When the count reaches your number you act. That action has a speed, which you add to your number to determine when you go next (ex. you go on a 3 and swing a sword with speed 4. You go next when the count reaches 7). If several people end up on the same count you go from high to low reflexes with ties happening simultaneously.

For OSR this number could easily be weapon or spell speed with other actions given appropriate values in relation to those.

As such, you aren't "sitting around waiting while others act around you" in the sense that you wait to do multiple things at once. Rather you're literally in the middle of doing something (you can't swing your axe again until you've brought it back up from your last swing) when someone else acts.

Mishihari

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2020, 03:45:45 PM »
Quote from: Marchand;1127773
I haven't come across a system I'm particularly happy with. I'd like to see a system that captures the ebb and flow feel you get from fights in cinema or from what little boxing I've seen. One side has the advantage and presses it until they try to land a telling blow, and either make it or fluff it and let the other guy come back. There's tension in the choice between playing it safe and gradually wearing the other guy down, or taking a gamble to put him down quickly.

I came up with a mechanic for this in the system I'm currently writing, but it's not based on initiative.  There's a combat modifier called momentum that adds to all melee actions, attack and defense.  If you successfully execute a combat action, which includes attack and a bunch of other things, then you get +1 to your momentum, which is significant since it's a d6 system.  If you take damage or do not make a successful combat action in your turn it drops back to 0.  Still needs work, but I'm happy with it so far.  It interacts with a lot of the combat actions and adds significant depth to decisions.

Spinachcat

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2020, 05:31:10 PM »
The Better Games systems from Space Gamer/Fantasy Gamer magazine had an interesting take on Initiative. Players choose to go before or after the enemy. If you went before, you got first strike, but your attacks were more wild strikes. If you went afterward, you gained the advantage of aiming, heavier blows, ability to dodge what the enemy did, etc. I ran their Rogue Swords of the Empire for many years and it worked great in actual play.

Spinachcat

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2020, 05:35:29 PM »
Quote from: Marchand;1127773
At its limit you get nonsense like a guy with a bow and arrow standing there while somebody runs up and bashes him over the head.


For me, that's a feature, not a bug.

That's crazy cinematic in my mind. The archer is trying to get his arrow readied and lift his bow, but at the last second, the orc charges in and hacks him down. And if the archer had readied previously, they would have shot first. Like Greedo.

Razor 007

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2020, 09:29:50 PM »
1d6 per side, until any tie is broken; then side based initiative.
I need you to roll a perception check.....

Graytung

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2020, 05:35:34 AM »
I prefer using a strict combat resolution over using initiative. I prefer:

1) Melee attacks - already engaged
2) Charging / missile attacks
3) Melee attacks - not yet engaged
4) Spells
- Loyalty  Morale  retreats  any non-combat actions

Resolve each step. Actions are resolved in roll order within each step, highest to lowest. (and you only need to do it in roll order if both sides act on the same step)

Why roll initiative at all?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 05:57:59 AM by Graytung »

Spinachcat

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2020, 05:42:56 AM »
Quote from: Graytung;1127916
Why roll initiative at all?

I used to use a strict combat resolution like yours above. It's good stuff and everybody knows what happens when...and that's what became a problem for me. I need the random factor so its a surprise who has the upper hand this round.

But the fixed order has lots of advantages. It allows for simultaneous actions which adds depth.

mAcular Chaotic

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2020, 10:53:06 AM »
Quote from: Graytung;1127916
I prefer using a strict combat resolution over using initiative. I prefer:

1) Melee attacks - already engaged
2) Charging / missile attacks
3) Melee attacks - not yet engaged
4) Spells
- Loyalty  Morale  retreats  any non-combat actions

Resolve each step. Actions are resolved in roll order within each step, highest to lowest. (and you only need to do it in roll order if both sides act on the same step)

Why roll initiative at all?

as a 5e player im interested in phased combat

what happens if you need to move to get in range to fire a missile? youre just sol? same with melee attacks
Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight.