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Author Topic: Preferred OSR initiative?  (Read 12107 times)

RPGPundit

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« on: April 23, 2020, 10:46:13 PM »
When running OSR games, what's your preferred initiative system?
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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2020, 11:10:40 PM »
Group initiative, with limited modifiers for exceptional Dex.

When I was running AD&D, low initiative was good, and casting times indicated the fastest you could possibly cast a spell. Weapon speed was used on ties.

My next OSR game is likely to be ACKS. I plan to give +1 initiative for 16 Dex and +2 for 18. You can also potentially get a +1 from a proficiency.

One initiative roll for the group, but if you have a modifier, you can apply it to your personal initiative.

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2020, 11:32:52 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;1127702
When running OSR games, what's your preferred initiative system?


With Original D&D
Determine if either party is surprised. Any group ambushing a surprised party gets a full and complete round of melee and movement actions.

Melee Initiative is in order by Dexterity. If the player(s) are tied with the monster, npc, or other players, the attacks are considered as simultaneous.

I usually start a countdown from 20.

Archers (except for crossbows) get to shoot once immediately before the melee round begins, and then again during the players count based on their Dexterity. Crossbowmen shoot immediately prior to melee.

Reach weapons, i.e. lances, long spears, regular spears, polearms, and 8' or large staffs get +2 for their initiative count.

Players with multiple attacks (4th level or above)  get their first attack during the Initiative countdown, and any subsequent attacks at the end of the melee round, in order, based on their Dexterity.


For Traveller Combat

Determine if either party is surprised. A party with the element of surprise may elect to avoid contact with the other party..

There is no initiative in Traveller.

With Traveller, each combat round lasts 15 seconds and all combat is considered simultaneous, meaning everyone gets to attack the target of their choosing at least once, and results are not applied until the end of the combat round to all parties affected. Endurance determines the number of melee blows that can be made during a combat, and once the blows are all used, the character must rest for at least thirty minutes before being able to engage in melee combat again. Some weapons require a minimum strength to use and additional strength deals extra damage. Dexterity determines the accuracy of shots and other missile weapons, and a high dex confers bonuses "to hit".

Traveller does have a special rule for conducting duels or "fast drawing" with slung or holstered weapons.
A character attempting to use a holstered or slung weapon in a combat round is subject to a DM of -3 when drawing. When two or more people draw against each other each rolls two dice and adds their dexterity, the character with the highest modified throw achieves surprise for the purpose of the first shot.

Players using full automatic fire get to make two attack rolls against their target(s). Up to two non-evading targets adjacent to the primary target are also attacked by the burst of automatic fire. Each secondary target is subject to a to hit roll with a DM of -3. Each burst delivers damage of 4 individual rounds. Larger Machine with a higher rate of fire deliver even more damage.

Shotguns can target up to three additional targets adjacent to the primary target and recieve a +2 bonus to hit.
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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2020, 11:47:47 PM »
I use Team Initiative. Each side rolls 1D6 (with possible situational modifier), ties go to the PCs. It's my one rule where I explicitly lean toward the players and for me, it works because I am a wargamer and I play the foes to the hilt so it acts as a balance mechanism (and false hope). In certain circumstances, a particular PC or monster may warrant their own modifier and that would put them in their own slice of the initiative order.

It's fast, easy to adjudicate, gives a "fog of war" randomness and creates table tension, but without any paperwork.

EOTB

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2020, 11:49:44 PM »
OSRIC initiative, which is basically straight dice rolls for most classes with small delays for casting spells or using magic items.
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Philotomy Jurament

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2020, 12:05:05 AM »
Here's my combat sequence house rules from my original D&D campaign. It starts off the full combat sequence, but at the end there is the "simplified sequence." I often default to the using the "simplified sequence," but with rulings informed by my familiarity with the details of the full sequence.

Code: [Select]
# Combat

A round of combat is approximately 10 seconds of time.

## Surprise

At the start of an encounter, each side checks for surprise, if applicable.
The standard chance of surprise is 2 in 6, as follows:

 Die Roll (d6)   Result
---------------  -----------------------------------------
      1          Complete surprise (enemy gets 2 actions)
      2          Surprise (enemy gets 1 action)
     3-6         Not surprised

Circumstances may modify the chance of the surprise. For example, a certain
monster may surprise with a 3 in 6 chance. In such cases, a die roll of 1
indicates complete surprise, and a die roll of 2 or 3 indicates surprise. In
other words, only a roll of 1 indicates complete surprise.

### Surprise Actions

Surprise actions are free actions which occur (or start) before the regular
melee round begins. Examples include movement, firing a loaded crossbow, melee
attacks, et cetera. Spells cast as a surprise action take effect as normal,
according to the rules for casting times (e.g., 1st-2nd level spells, power
words, and item activations would take effect immediately; higher level spells
cast as a surprise action would take effect during the normal phase of the
melee round). As always, the caster may only cast one spell during the round,
even if it was cast as a surprise action.

Movement taken during surprise is a maximum of a 1/4 move for surprise and a
half move for complete surprise.

Archers may fire one arrow per surprise action. Crossbowmen and slingers may
only fire once during surprise, even if they have two surprise actions. If a
character has multiple hurled weapons in hand, one weapon may be hurled in
each surprise action.

## Encounter Distance

### Underworld/Dungeon/Indoors

Standard encounter distance is 20-80 feet (2d4). However, if surprise is
indicated for either side, then encounter distance is 10-30 feet (1d3).
The DM may adjust encounter distance according to the circumstances.

### Wilderness/Outdoors

Standard encounter distance is 40-240 yards (4d6). However, if surprise is
indicated for either side, then encounter distance is 10-30 yards. The DM
may adjust encounter distance according to the circumstances.

## Movement Rates in Combat

In a combat round, a character's full move is his standard movement rate
divided by three. A charge doubles that.

 Base Move   Combat Move   Charge
----------- ------------- --------
    24           80'        160'
    21           70'        140'
    18           60'        120'
    15           50'        100'
    12           40'         80'
     9           30'         60'
     6           20'         40'
     3           10'         20'

## Combat Sequence

1. _Initiative_: Both sides roll 1d6. High roll has initiative.
2. _Missiles & Spells_: In initiative order, both sides fire missiles,
   cast spells, et cetera.
3. _Movement (Side A)_: Side with initiative moves up to half move.
4. _Movement (Side B)_: Side without initiative moves up to half move.
5. _Missiles & Spells_: In initiative order, both sides fire missiles, cast
   spells, et cetera.
6. _Movement (Side B)_: Side without initiative moves up to half move.
7. _Movement (Side A)_: Side with initiative moves up to half move.
8. _Missiles & Spells_: Unengaged combatants fire missiles, cast spells, et
   cetera.
9. _Melee_: Engaged combatants fight one round of melee.

### Rules Governing Missiles/Ranged Attacks

* Archers standing still may fire twice (in phase 2 or 5, and in phase 8 if the
  archer remains unengaged).
* Archers taking a half-move may fire once (in phase 2 or 8). However, archers
  with split-move-and-fire ability (e.g., elves, mounted archers) that take a
  half-move may fire once in a missile phase of their choice (2, 5, or 8).
* Archers taking a full move may not fire. However, archers with split-move-and-
  fire ability (e.g., elves, mounted archers) may take a full move and fire
  once, in phase 5, only.
* Slingers standing still may fire once (in phase 2, 5 or 8).
* Slingers taking a half-move may fire once (in phase 2 or 8).
* Slingers taking a full move may not fire.
* Crossbowmen standing still may fire once (in phase 2 or 5) and reload*.
* Crossbowmen standing still may reload* and fire once (in phase 5 or 8).
* Crossbowmen taking a half-move may fire once (in phase 2 or 8) or reload*.
* Crossbowmen taking a full move may reload*, but may not fire.
* Combatants hurling spears, axes, or hammers may fire once (in phase 2, 5, or
  8) and take a full move, including charge, if desired.
* Combatants hurling daggers or javelins may fire once (in phase 2, 5, or 8)
  and take a full move, including charge (and melee), if desired.
* Combatants hurling daggers or javelins may fire twice (in phase 2 or 5, and
  phase 8) and take a full move without charge (no melee attacks allowed).
* Combatants hurling in-hand weapons without moving may fire once and still
  engage in melee attacks if charged (but may not set spears or similar
  weapons against a charge).

* Heavy crossbows require a full round to reload, and no movement is allowed
   while reloading.

### Rules Governing Spells

* Spells may be cast as "spells," from "item activation" (e.g., wands), from
  scrolls (this is not considered an item activation), or from innate spell
  abilities (due to race, et cetera).
* With the exception of power words and item activations, a spell caster cannot
  move and cast a spell in the same round. Power words and item activations
  can be combined with up to a full move without charge, and may be cast in
  phase 2, 5, or 8.
* With the exception of power words, item activation, and spells designed to
  be cast in melee, spell casters may not cast a spell while engaged in melee.
* If a caster is engaged in melee or takes damage after a spell is commenced
  but before it is finished, the spell is interrupted and lost.
* A spell caster may cast a maximum of one spell per round.
* Casting time depends on the level and type of spell.

Spell                                Casting Time
--------------------------  -------------------------------
1st-2nd level spells                  Immediate
Power Words                           Immediate
Holy Words                            Immediate
Word of Recall                        Immediate
Item activation                       Immediate
Innate spell abilities                Immediate*
3rd-6th level spells               +1 Spell Phase
1st-2nd level scrolls              +1 Spell Phase
7th-9th level spells                 Full Round
3rd-6th level scrolls                Full Round
7th-9th level scrolls          Full Round + 1 Spell Phase

* unless otherwise specified by the ability being used

### Rules Governing Melee & Movement

* Combatants who take a full move may not make any melee attacks unless they
  charge, even if they move into engagement range.
* A charge into engagement gives the charging combatants a +2 to hit in the
  initial round of melee. Charging characters suffer a -1 penalty to AC in the
  initial round of melee (this does not apply to ranged attacks against them).
  When combatants are charging, weapon length decides who strikes first (rather
  than initiative).
* Only one charge may be taken per turn (not per melee round). This probably
  means only one charge may be taken in most melee engagements.
* Combatants are considered engaged in melee when the distance between them is
  equal to or less than the longest reach or 10 ft, whichever is larger.
* A moving combatant who becomes engaged may not leave engagement or continue
  movement to the flanks or rear of his opponent during the initial round of
  engagement. A combatant not already engaged in melee may move a maximum of 5'
  right or left in order to confront and contact an enemy attempting to bypass
  or move into a flanking position.
* If one combatant in a melee has allies to his immediate left or right, and
  these allies are not engaged with other enemies, the allies may move into
  flanking positions against their common enemy after the first round of melee.
* Flanking position grants a +1 bonus to hit and negates any benefit from the
  target's shield.
* Rear positioning grants a +2 bonus to hit and negates any benefit from the
  target's shield.
* Flee Melee: an engaged combatant may flee melee at full movement, but he
  loses the benefit of his shield and engaged enemies get a free attack with a
  +2 bonus to hit.
* Retreat: an engaged combatant may retreat from melee at half-move. Non-elite
  combatants (applies only to NPCs) must make a morale check when retreating.
  Retreating combatants may not attack in the round they move, and they end
  their movement still facing their enemies.
* Fall Back: an engaged combatant may fall back while fighting. Melee proceeds
  normally, but only 10 ft. of movement is allowed.


## Simplified Combat Sequence

1. Both sides roll 1d6 for initiative; high roll wins.
2. Winning side fires missiles, starts spells (and finishes spells of level 1-2)
3. Losing side fires missiles, starts spells (and finishes spells of level 1-2)
4. Both sides move
5. Spells that were started in 2-3 take effect (if they weren't completed
   earlier); archers who didn't move and haven't been engaged in melee may fire
   again.
6. Melee

The DM may use the details of the full sequence to inform rulings made when
using the simplified combat sequence.

When I run AD&D, I use my own interpretation of the 1e AD&D initiative rules. I've also used my original D&D sequence, above, with AD&D. That works fine, but when I'm running AD&D I prefer to keep the rules on segments, etc., so I usually stick to my interpretation of "BTB."
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 12:08:15 AM by Philotomy Jurament »
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VisionStorm

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2020, 01:25:06 AM »
I don't run OSR games per se, though I've played D&D--mostly 2e and 3e, briefly 0e when introduce into the hobby, and recently 5e. But I despise the concept of "Initiative" with every fiber of my being. I consider initiative to be unnecessary and strictly a game convention with very little resemblance to actual combat. You don't need initiative. The game will NOT break down if you don't randomly determine order of actions, even when playing with new players. If anything the notion of being paralyzed while everyone else acts will confuse noobs more than simply going in whatever other "makes sense" given the circumstances.

My preferred "initiative" system is to use my own judgement and break down combat in terms of battle-readiness and proximity. Everyone who's ready to act at the start of the round goes first--ranged with loaded and drawn weapons, melee already engaged in melee, etc. These are followed by anyone who needs to make minor preparations--move into melee range, draw a holstered weapon to attack, reload fast loading weapons, etc. Finally, anyone who needs to make lengthier preparations goes last--load a crossbow, full round actions, recite lengthy incantations, etc.

All actions within these three phases (which I would call Fast Actions, Standard Actions and Delayed Actions) take place at roughly the same time. Attacks are rolled at the same time and opponents that hit each other in the same phase don't interrupt each other's actions, even if one or both dies--which they will if that's the case, cuz that's the way it goes in real life. Avoiding an enemy's attack cuz you killed them first cuz "initiative" is largely just a game convention.

People can and do kill each other simultaneously in real life. The way you avoid getting hit and you killing them first is if their attack missed but yours didn't. OR if you attacked and killed them at an earlier phase than their chance to act. Attacks against people who may only act at a later phase can get their actions interrupted when appropriate.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 01:27:51 AM by VisionStorm »

Mishihari

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2020, 04:03:20 AM »
Individual initiative, rerolled every time, with initiative modifiers for weapons speed, casting time, etc.  I usually start off with "who's got the lowest initiative?"  Then count up in ticks.  I know a lot of people prefer 3E style initiative because it moves faster, but the game lost a _lot_ of tactical depth with that change, most importantly spell interruption.  The way I do it just so much more fun for my groups.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 04:06:51 AM by Mishihari »

S'mon

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2020, 04:10:36 AM »
For my current OSRIC game I use

Declare actions
Actions start simultaneously, esp movement
Roll group init on d6s
Where the two sides are in melee, init determines who goes first.
Spells go off in segments after the init roll depending on casting time. If caster is hit while casting then spell is lost.

If archers are shooting at foes closing to melee, then the chargers will only get in first if they win init by so many segments that they can close to melee and attack before first shot - eg move 90' and win init by 3, can close 9x3 = 27' before first shot. If weapon has 2 shots then second shot is 5 segments after first; if 3 shots then 3 segments, if 4 shots (specialised dart thrower) then 2 segments.

nDervish

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2020, 05:42:19 AM »
Last D&D-ish game I ran was ACKS a few years ago.  We experimented with several different variations on initiative over the course of the campaign.  We started with straight "individually-rolled initiative and do what you want when your turn comes up", then tried "declare all actions before rolling initiative, roll individual initiative, and resolve the declared actions in initiative order", and maybe went through a couple other things that aren't coming to mind at the moment before finally settling on "declare spellcasting or other extended actions, roll side-based initiative with individual modifiers, act in initiative order".

The two things which were constant through all the variations were:

1) Initiative re-rolled each round, because combat is chaotic, not an orderly round-robin where you know that, after you act, each other combatant will always take exactly one action (and always in the same order) before you act again.

2) Individual initiative modifiers were always applied, even when using group initiative, because many classes have initiative bonuses as class abilities, and characters can also get bonuses from proficiency picks, and I didn't want to say that something which a character had invested scarce resources in (class ability or proficiency picks) would simply be disregarded.

dkabq

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2020, 07:28:35 AM »
I use a modified version of Mike Mearls' alternative initiative system in my DCC game.

Lower is better. Attack initiative is based on your weapon's damage roll. A move is a 1d6. A spell is a 1d12.

Any initiative modifiers are only applied to the first action taken in a round (in DCC you get at least two actions (one of which is a move) in a round). Spell casters can apply their spell check stat modifier to the initiative roll for casting a spell.

The one part that takes a bit to get used to is that I normalize initiative to the fastest participant in the encounter (this avoids negative initiative). So if the highest initiative modifier is a +4, then everyone adds +4 to their initiative roll for their first action.

For example, a warrior and an orc are attacking each other. The warrior has a short sword (damage = 1d6) and a +2 Agility mod; the orc has a club (1d3+1) and a +1 Agility mod.

warrior initiative = 1d6 - 2 + 2
orc initiative = 1d3+1 -1 + 2

Let's say that each roll a "1"

warrior initiative = 1 - 2 +2 = 1
orc initiative = 1+1 -1 + 2 = 3

Steven Mitchell

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2020, 07:53:56 AM »
I've played little to no OSR in the last several years.  In D&D, whether OSR or not (and in fact, most games), my initiative preference is some variation of side A vs side B initiative. For D&D 5E, I prefer a flat initiative target for the monsters (or most of them, anyway--make exception for dragons and the like), with the players all rolling every round to beat that target. Thus it is fast PCs, monsters, slow PCs every round--with the only changes which PCs are fast or slow in a given round.  

My primary motivation is handling time, as I find such a system radically speeds up combat.  The secondary motivation is creating uncertainty for the players as to when they will act.  My only real issue with such a system is the monsters all going in a clump, which  is why with a large monster group I'll sometimes split them into two groups, faster and slower, leading to fast PCs, fast monsters, average PCs, slow monsters, slow PCs.  I've also found such a system to be much easier to new players to grasp, for some bizarre reasons of player psychology that I don't fully understand.  Or maybe it's just my players.

JeffB

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2020, 08:10:48 AM »
No initiative is my preference.

Otherwise, D6 per side, per round, no modifiers.

Vile Traveller

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Preferred OSR initiative?
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2020, 09:25:45 AM »
I prefer Holmes initiative in Dex order, with ties either resulting in simultaneous action or broken by rolling 1d6.

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« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2020, 12:08:15 PM »
When playing SWN, I roll initiative for my bad guys as one group, without bothering with modifiers.  The players all roll individually with a dex modifier.  Players who beat my bad guys go first, in any order they want.  Then my bad guys go.  Finally, players who's roll was less than mine go last, in any order they want.  We roll only once and keep that sequence for the rest of the combat.

When playing Swords & Wizardry, I keep it even simpler.  One roll for my bad guys and one roll for the player group, with no mods.  IGOUGO.  We do that once and keep the sequence for the rest of the combat.
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