This is a response the Pistols at dawn. thread on The Pundit's Parlour, and is designated a "popcorn" thread as per message #3 of that thread.

I'm starting the thread here, rather than in The Pundit's Parlour or in The Pig Pen, because I cannot start new threads in either of those forums.  For some reason.

Now, with that out of the way...

Levi, in message #6, states (in bold, yet):

>  Roleplaying Games create stories.

From the context of the message, I'm fairly sure (but not positive) that he means "All roleplaying games create stories."

But then in message #10, he writes:

> Story-making is an element that can be brought in to roleplaying games while still having them remain roleplaying games.

Which doesn't seem to make any sense.  If story-making is an element that can be added to roleplaying games, that strongly implies that there are roleplaying games which do not already have that element.

So, Levi, what am I missing here?  Do all roleplaying games create story, or not?



Cheers,
Roger

The fourth rule of our debate is that we won't post about it outside of it until it ends.  So.  I'll check with the Pundit; if it's cool with him for me to ignore that here, I'll answer you fully.

It seems as though he's saying that RPGs create story simply by providing a series of events that can be retold later if the participants choose.

By that definition, I created a story yesterday when I went to go buy milk at the grocery store.

I've heard the concept put forth that...

All rpgs produce events that are stories, but not all rpgs create good stories.

Thus, one should create rpgs that do produce good stories.


As usual, the leap made in the 'Thus' is... a leap. I agree with the counter-statement "You are free to do so, but what you now have is not a RPG".

One could even take issue with the statement that all RPGs produce stories.

An RPG session produces an experience which several people have together.

A story is something that is told about an experience, after the experience is over.

So, if you never talk about your session, if you never tell a story, does the story exist at all? Or is there simply the potential for a story, sitting there, unused, in the minds of the participants?

Quote from: Name LipsSo, if you never talk about your session, if you never tell a story, does the story exist at all? Or is there simply the potential for a story, sitting there, unused, in the minds of the participants?

Memory is little more than recalled story, it even changes and morphs over time matching it's oral tradition.

I don't think this line is an honest engagement of the concept. It's word nitpicking and the idea deserves to be met head on for what it is.

You need to join the "Group" to be able to post.

BUT I think it is only fair that NO ONE posts in that thread until the agreed posting limited has been reached.

As much as I may disagree with Levi, I want to hear his thoughts all the same without interruptions. But then Im sure the 'pundit might say something too!

Can we do that please?

Quote from: Levi KornelsenThe fourth rule of our debate is that we won't post about it outside of it until it ends.  So.  I'll check with the Pundit; if it's cool with him for me to ignore that here, I'll answer you fully.

Sounds reasonable enough.  Until then we'll all just wildly speculate.



Cheers,
Roger

Quote from: LawbagBUT I think it is only fair that NO ONE posts in that thread until the agreed posting limited has been reached.

I was trying to post to the group, not the thread.



Cheers,
Roger

Quote from: RogerSounds reasonable enough.  Until then we'll all just wildly speculate.

One might say that's all at least one of them is doing...

All RPGs create stories, if we define stories as stuff happening that causes other stuff to happen. This also happens to be the definition of "plot".

If we define stories as a plot, where the events don't just happen but also have some kind of meaning that holds the whole thing together, then not all RPGs create stories. Only some do.

Claiming that RPGs that do create such stories are not RPGs is elitist BS.

At the risk of my first post to this place sounding rude, the whole "story in RPG" debate in the popcorn thread seems to revolve around exactly what the definition of a story is which, frankly, is boring. We all have a basic idea of what a story is and if our entire point rests on a specific definition of "story", that's a bit lame.

Of more import - I think, anyway - is whether or not RPGs (some, if not all) should have, as their goal, the creation of a story. Or should have elements which encourages the making of a story. Does the ability to be in/make a story make the game more fun for you?

Quote from: Lady LakiraAt the risk of my first post to this place sounding rude, the whole "story in RPG" debate in the popcorn thread seems to revolve around exactly what the definition of a story is which, frankly, is boring. We all have a basic idea of what a story is and if our entire point rests on a specific definition of "story", that's a bit lame.

Of more import - I think, anyway - is whether or not RPGs (some, if not all) should have, as their goal, the creation of a story. Or should have elements which encourages the making of a story. Does the ability to be in/make a story make the game more fun for you?

I agree, welcome to Nukinland , and my answer is no. I don't like RPGs, for the most part, whose primary goal is to "create a story". I like RPGs whose main goal is to play a game. Having a fun story arise out of the game playing is just a nice bonus as far as I'm concerned.

Quote from: SigmundHaving a fun story arise out of the game playing is just a nice bonus as far as I'm concerned.

Whereas I find some RPGs rather boring without story elements added in, unless I'm in the right kind of mood. Put a different way, I continue to play in some games only because the story that has been built continues to engage me.

For the most part, the games I enjoy the most have good stories. The games I enjoy the least have little to no story. I've yet to find an RPG that happened to be devoid of (good) story but turned out to be an enjoyable game for me anyway. Which isn't to say that I don't like games that don't have story. I enjoy chinese checkers, for instance.

Wait. I lied. There have been some computer RPGs that I've played that have had thoroughly unengaging storylines but which I enjoyed playing at the time. On the other hand, I can't really remember any of their names, so that says something about how much I enjoyed them, I guess.

I enjoy playing games that utilizes the imagination of everyone at the table so that the decisions made end up creating this amazing story.

Some games do this for me better than others.

What I don't want is to walk into a situation where the players don't have meaningful decisions to make.  I like having no idea where it will end up and surfing the player's juicy brains to a satisfying conclusion.