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Author Topic: [popcorn] I Love My Blackguard  (Read 2572 times)

Ben Lehman

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[popcorn] I Love My Blackguard
« on: April 30, 2006, 03:03:14 AM »
Since this came up in that thread over there, I wanted to just say it:

Yes, it's true.  I love my blackguard.  I love him even though his Con is too low and he doesn't have enough HP to use his +1 dragonbane vicious greatsword.  I love him even though he still hasn't unlocked his big saves, so he gets screwed every time he makes a Reflex throw.

I love my blackguard.

What character of yours do you love?

yrs--
--Ben

P.S.  The actual point, on the thread, is that a fair number of indie designers play and love the heck out of various forms of D&D.  This is true.  The Forge has no small amount of D&D love (and some amount of D&D hate -- it's an open forum that doesn't ban people and thus you get all kinds).
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Ben Lehman

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[popcorn] I Love My Blackguard
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2006, 03:11:48 AM »
For the convenience of those following the thread, here's a link to Clinton's post.  If you read further in the thread, you can see Levi and I engage in sinister conspiracy.

yrs--
--Ben
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Dr_Avalanche

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[popcorn] I Love My Blackguard
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2006, 03:21:02 AM »
Bah, I can't reach the page you link to. :(

Quote
            Some problems were encountered
The requested discussion could not be found.
 The requested discussion could not be found.
 
 

Ben Lehman

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[popcorn] I Love My Blackguard
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2006, 03:32:45 AM »
Ahw, crap, it's one of the "you must be logged in to read this" threads.  

:yell: Curse you, Andy Kitkowski :yell:

It's pretty easy to make an account and read if you like.

For those that don't want to, here's the quote.

Quote from: Clinton R Nixon

Oh God, this is getting awesome.

I wish Levi would refute his "Forge people hate D&D" idea, though. It's unbearably untrue.

Right now:

a) Ron Edwards is running D&D for the kid down the street from him.

b) Ben Lehman loves his blackguard.

c) Some of the top-selling and best-loved indie RPGs are all either like D&D in some way or straight up homages - Burning Wheel (which I'm pretty certain is the best-selling indie RPG ever) and The Shadow of Yesterday (my hubris knows no end, but man, it's D&D-love in pure form). And Sorcerer's a Champions-supplement gone mad, so it's not so outside of what Pundit's defining as an RPG.


And, later in the thread

Quote from: Clinton R Nixon

I'm on the record for admiring him [the Pundit]. I think when he talks about his play, it rocks. They sound like a blast. And I think it's good to have people who will throw a fucking shotgun blast at anyone who begins to get all bullshitty.

My only two problems with him, which are admittedly big, are that he (a) indicts everyone the same (but, man, this is always my problem for running a forum dedicated to independent fucking publishing for Pete's sake and then it becomes a haven for theory, which is great, but I'm there for the Xerox and staples) and (b) he has this idea that he's the arbiter of fun.

Anytime someone points a finger and says "they aren't having fun" or "their game sucks," I'm with the Pundit. But, man, he should pay the same courtesy to others. If I'm having fun playing Sorcerer and I talk about it online enthusiasticly, and he wants to call me elitist, he's right in the wrong, much like someone who would say D&D players are stupid is also wrong.


I basically agree with Clinton's sentiments.

yrs--
--Ben
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shooting_dice

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[popcorn] I Love My Blackguard
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2006, 04:20:25 AM »
Quote from: Ben Lehman

P.S.  The actual point, on the thread, is that a fair number of indie designers play and love the heck out of various forms of D&D.  This is true.  The Forge has no small amount of D&D love (and some amount of D&D hate -- it's an open forum that doesn't ban people and thus you get all kinds).


Sure. It's the players many of you don't care for.
 

Ben Lehman

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« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2006, 04:34:31 AM »
Quote from: shooting_dice
Sure. It's the players many of you don't care for.


Huh?  Uhm, words in my mouth put much?

%90 of D&D fans I've met have been stand up guys n' gals.

yrs--
--Ben

P.S.  White Wolf freelancers, on the other hand, have been a much more mixed group.
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RPGPundit

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« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2006, 04:39:56 AM »
I now officially like you, Ben.

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Dr_Avalanche

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[popcorn] I Love My Blackguard
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2006, 04:57:10 AM »
Thanks, Ben. I did register, but it's one of those "awaiting admin/moderator's approval" kind of things.

shooting_dice

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« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2006, 04:59:44 AM »
Quote from: Ben Lehman
Huh?  Uhm, words in my mouth put much?

%90 of D&D fans I've met have been stand up guys n' gals.

I'm sue you think they're fine people -- just shitty gamers. The basis of Forge theory is that gamers can't manage their games properly, after all. I mean, I've read all the justifications, from Chris Chinn's elaborate, clumsy diagram that not only claims to describe how bad gamers are, but how you can't trust what they say about their games because, after all, they're lying. This is leaving aside the Edwards' "brain damage" rants.

You yourself admit this contempt exists here:

http://benlehman.thesmerf.com/?p=149

When you say that "safe" and "unsafe" play arre founded in assumptions of a kind of cowardice. And of course, you yourself have the standard pedestrian passive contempt for people who prefer immersion, and have one of the bog standard posts devoted to defining it out of existence.

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P.S.  White Wolf freelancers, on the other hand, have been a much more mixed group.

How many of us have you met?

Mind you, I'm sure that you think you know quite a bit about us as a homogenous group. That's also just as common and just as wrong. What I really have to wonder, though, is what you, Nixon and Nisarg are on about: These phantom presences that you think are silently accusing you of not gaming right, or having fun right. And for some reason, you're all afraid that the same company is oppressing you by making games that you do not personally care for.

Or is the real fear that, given that people keep liking these games which theory and preference says they shouldn't, maybe your ideas about gaming are flawed in the first place?
 

SHARK

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[popcorn] I Love My Blackguard
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2006, 05:13:11 AM »
Greetings!

Quote
The basis of Forge theory is that gamers can't manage their games properly, after all.


What the fuck does this mean? Who are the Forge people anyways? And, how can they justify such a sweeping generalization about "gamers?" Who the fuck is the "Forge" to determine who runs their games "properly" and who doesn't?

I'm also curious about what defines a "properly" run game anyways?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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Paka

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[popcorn] I Love My Blackguard
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2006, 05:21:13 AM »
Quote from: SHARK
What the fuck does this mean? Who are the Forge people anyways? And, how can they justify such a sweeping generalization about "gamers?" Who the fuck is the "Forge" to determine who runs their games "properly" and who doesn't?


I could write that the Forge says no such thing.

I could urge you to go over to the site and look it over for yourself.

But no, I will save us the time.

The Forge hates you.

It told me.

It hates your gaming and it hates your dice and it hates your books.

When you smile, Baby Forge cries.

Ben Lehman

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[popcorn] I Love My Blackguard
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2006, 05:23:27 AM »
Hi, Malcom --

You're like a ray of sunshine, spreading light and joy where-ever you go.

My record for White Wolf Freelancers is more around %50.  There was a really awesome guy I met in Finland who I sadly can't remember the name of who engaged me in some great, educational, mind opening, honest-to-goodness discussion who was phenomenal.  I don't see you as a homogeneous group at all.  I would never put you and him together.

You can read whatever you like into my blog posts, but just because you want me to hate doesn't mean I do.  The fact of the matter is, not everyone wants to do dangerous stuff.  That's totally cool.  In fact, a lot of the time, I don't want to do dangerous stuff.  And I can still have a lot of fun.  See other posts on this forum and elsewhere.  In fact, of the two games I'm playing right now, I wouldn't classify either of them as particularly dangerous, but the D&D one is definitely more dangerous than the Nine Worlds, which is just a spectacularly fun cosmic romp.

This is off-topic, so if we're actually going to bat back and forth about it it should probably move to a new thread:  The reason I'm not interesting in immersion is simply that I played deep-immersive play for about four years through college and I'm frankly just sick of it.  It's not bad, I had a lot of fun with it, but it's like eating the same meal every day.  I'm interested in trying new things right now.  I do think that immersive gaming as it stands has some pretty large flaws.  My ideas about immersive play methods have been pretty back-burnered, simply because I haven't been doing a lot of that sort of play (and all my design is strictly play-based), but I was just talking with Levi about some approaches towards a better, deeper, safer immersive play the other day.  Maybe we're going to work on something together for that.  That would be cool.

yrs--
--Ben

P.S.  Wanna have a beer at GenCon?
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Paka

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« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2006, 05:23:50 AM »
Quote from: Ben Lehman
What character of yours do you love?


A few weeks ago I played a Troll in Burning Wheel, an all Troll game.

My Troll was big, strong and dumb, not quite as cunning as the others and not Warlord material.  He had spent his life in the caves and just wanted a bridge to call his own so he could eat maidens.

He had no idea what a maiden was.

In the course of the adventure, he smashed a demon in his hands and I'd like to think he got to the surface at some point and got his bridge.

Ben Lehman

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« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2006, 05:28:02 AM »
Quote from: SHARK
Greetings!

What the fuck does this mean? Who are the Forge people anyways? And, how can they justify such a sweeping generalization about "gamers?" Who the fuck is the "Forge" to determine who runs their games "properly" and who doesn't?

I'm also curious about what defines a "properly" run game anyways?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

SHARK --

Forge people = me and Judd and Clinton.  People who post at a bulletin board called "The Forge."  The Forge is basically a board about RPG design, particularly small companies where one guy writes his game and publishes it on his own time and money.

Malcolm is lying.

What some people at the Forge are into is trying to study why people have fun in games, and design games that give them more of that fun.  That necessarily involves studying why people don't have fun in games, and what happens when gaming breaks down.  For some reason, certain very loud-mouthed people have gotten it into their heads that when we talk about broken play, we are talking about people who don't play our games.  This is flat-out untrue.

What all people in the Forge are into is helping you finish writing your role-playing game, find an audience that likes to play it, and sell some copies, all without losing your shirt.

yrs--
--Ben
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Settembrini

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[popcorn] I Love My Blackguard
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2006, 05:45:50 AM »
Listen to the Sons of Kryos, they are just nice people talking about stuff. I know several forgeites who are just relaxed guys playing more oneshots with forge style games than a traditional campaign with an orthodox system.
That´s all most of them want. And let them have their ways, I mean they have these small niche games who are basically irrelevant to general gaming and don´t harm anybody.
It´s only the forge-fanboys who spill on to other online discussions and hijack threads that are getting on regular joes nerves, especially by telling how important, revolutionary and ground shaking those niche games are supposed to be.
But I cannot see any of them here.
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