Quote from: RPGPundit;1063752Your post was in violation of two rules of the site: posting pirated material (I'm assuming that link on the mega.nz site was not a legally authorized download point), and posting neo-nazi material.

Man, people say it's a free market, but just you try to make a living writing RaHoWa modules.

In all seriousness, RaHoWa, MYFAROG, Beast the Primordial and their ilk aren't worth anyone's time. We're better off just ignoring them after a quick, cheap laugh and moving on with our lives. There are only two reasons to bring these games: either you're an offendatron trying to prove RPG are secretly-coded neo-nazi propaganda or you're a tabletop player and you want to laugh at a bad game and use it as a punchline. Seriously, nobody bought these games in any reasonable capacity (except maybe Beast).

Random factoid but Ed Greenwood wrote the Forgotten Realms to have equality between the sexes, no taboo against homosexuality, and to be multiracial with people from many places on Earth having settled it.

It also was a free love-esque setting with numerous poly relationships and casual sex.

TSR *REALLLLLY* rolled that all bad.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1063772Random factoid but Ed Greenwood wrote the Forgotten Realms to have equality between the sexes, no taboo against homosexuality, and to be multiracial with people from many places on Earth having settled it.

It also was a free love-esque setting with numerous poly relationships and casual sex.

TSR *REALLLLLY* rolled that all bad.

Well, this is hardly surprising given who Greenwood was and his era.

Quote from: Bob Something;1063773Well, this is hardly surprising given who Greenwood was and his era.

Yep, he was a big ole hippie.

And TSR was SCARED OF SOCCER MOMS.

Greenwood is, in internet parlance, a "horrorcow."

Not familiar with that terminology.

Quote from: Bob Something;1063769In all seriousness, RaHoWa, MYFAROG, Beast the Primordial and their ilk aren't worth anyone's time. We're better off just ignoring them after a quick, cheap laugh and moving on with our lives.

I would be happy to agree that MYFAROG is both racist and unimportant. It was just a passing mention for me earlier.

For that matter, I don't think my other two examples are important for RPGs. (Sahudese Fire Drill and World of Darkness: Gypsies) But apparently some people really want to argue that even these edge cases.

Quote from: jhkim;1063783I would be happy to agree that MYFAROG is both racist and unimportant. It was just a passing mention for me earlier.

For that matter, I don't think my other two examples are important for RPGs. (Sahudese Fire Drill and World of Darkness: Gypsies) But apparently some people really want to argue that even these edge cases.

I've said it a couple of posts already. I'm discussing things in good faith. I've already pointed out a couple of times where it seems you're not. *You* brought these up as examples. No one else.

So the only person that apparently thought they were worthy of discussion as examples of your perspective - was you. If these are only "edge cases" then bring up better grist for the mill. Unless of course you're engaging in the topic for other reasons which appear to be unstated.

 - and yes I want to be clear - I'm ignorant of the content of MyFAROG - I know the author is a racist, but I don't know that the game is. I'll defer to those more knowledgeable about the content than myself. Part of the reason for the discussion was the assumption someone was going to actually cite some examples.

Quote from: CTPhipps;1063764It's kind of a weird thing because vampire has always been Gothic PUNK.

Which is anti-fascist and anti-The Man.

It's also extremely cynical and edgy.

It has no room for either political correctness or bigotry in any form.

"Punks" sold out years ago became aging, crusty moral guardians. The rest probably became bitter skinheads or something.

Public Image Limited. Oh Johnny!

Quote from: CTPhipps;1063782Not familiar with that terminology.

His life, person, and work can always be milked for horror.

Quote from: tenbones;1063803- and yes I want to be clear - I'm ignorant of the content of MyFAROG - I know the author is a racist, but I don't know that the game is. I'll defer to those more knowledgeable about the content than myself. Part of the reason for the discussion was the assumption someone was going to actually cite some examples.

It's definitely racist. I feel like if jhkim and I agree something is racist, it probably is.

Quote from: jhkim;1063694Regardless of whether you are offended by it, do you think that MyFAROG is racist? Or would you say it is not racist? I think it is pretty clearly racist. Here is a link for the full rules scan, by the way:

(EDITED BY MOD)

Now, if you want to argue that it isn't important - that seems more reasonable. But I don't think one can reasonably argue that it isn't racist.

The setting, as far as I have gone into it, looks racist. The rules (which are nothing to write home about) don't enforce or even imply any racism. Of course, I have been playing in a campaign that is set it ancient Mesopotamia and has no relationship to the ancient north of the suggested setting.

tenbones - I apologize for making things more ad hominem, starting from when we first talked about Sahudese Fire Drill. I would prefer to talk about the issues, and I'm sorry about implying anything about you personally and criticizing your approach.


I use the term racist for encouraging explicit false and derogatory views based on race. I consider this wider than just violent neo-nazis. A mild-mannered mother who warns her daughter against marrying a black man based on race is still racist, even if she isn't promoting violence. Within gaming discussions, we had a poster here (threestonegames) who explicitly thought that Africans genetically had lower IQ. If somone thinks that blacks are genetically dumber and more suited for manual labor, sports, and music - that's still racist, even if they aren't calling for a violent race war.

Notably, segregation and anti-miscegenation laws were along the lines of "separate but equal" which supposedly didn't promote inequality or violence. However, in practice they certainly were denigrating. You write:

(Re: segregation in the military)

Quote from: tenbones;1063746So again - racist or bigoted? It's a bigoted policy. But it should bear noting that those were Democratic policies created by avowed racists. Those same Democrats that blocked all attempts for blacks to join the Army because *the* racists thought blacks were sub-human. The policy is bigoted, not itself racist. When it was overturned - it kept blacks in their own units which makes sense given their attitudes of the time around 1917 when WWI demanded military cohesion. It was an unknown.

Quote from: tenbones;1063746The assumption everyone is going to behave and be as effective in some egalitarian meritocratic fashion is a modern view that military people, regardless of their background, do not have the luxury to entertain when a known quantity is in play. You go with what you know works in warfare. Yes, it's sad we have had to go through that, but that's *always* been true. Since the dawn of organized military this has been done until proven otherwise - Greeks, Egyptians, Romans, Mongols, etc... all have done this with foreign units in some fashion.

African-Americans weren't "foreign units", though, and in any case, being done since the dawn of organized military doesn't mean it isn't racist. As I would phrase it, we have had to go through racism in order to get to better and more reasonable policies. The ancient Greeks, Egyptians, Romans, and Mongols were racist, unscientific, undemocratic, and otherwise wrong in many ways. This begins to even seem like more of a semantic issue - in that you agree that segregation was a policy enacted by racist Democrats. You just don't like calling the policy itself racist, as I read it.


Getting into entertainment and gaming, I think it's really about message. Disney's Song of the South, for example, portrays a harmonious life between the white plantation owners and the happy blacks who work for them. The villains of the piece are the bullying poor white kids. That's really a blueprint for an ideal of how segregation is supposed to be good for everyone. It's not just a single facet of the story that is the problem - it is the overall message.

Likewise, minstrel shows were comedy that is very much of the time and attitudes of segregationist racist Democrats. The problem with its adaptation in Amos & Andy wasn't that it's invalid to have comedic black characters, but that the center of its comedy is to mock African-Americans along the lines of racist attitudes.

Yes, the message of something isn't an exact science, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Works of fiction really do have messages, and they have a real effect. Birth of a Nation was a fictional movie, but it had a tangible effect of boosting KKK membership. Song of the South helped make segregation seem more palatable by its positive portrayal.

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;1063953The setting, as far as I have gone into it, looks racist. The rules (which are nothing to write home about) don't enforce or even imply any racism. Of course, I have been playing in a campaign that is set it ancient Mesopotamia and has no relationship to the ancient north of the suggested setting.

From my reading, it seems to me that the rules include a bunch of setting. Just like I think the stat blocks for dwarves are part of the D&D rules, the stats for Arbi Darkling or Arbi Weakling are part of the rules. i.e. Arbi Darkling males have -2 CHA, -2 INT, -2 WIL. I'd call that part of the rules, and I think it reflects racism. Yes, the Arbi Darklings are a fictional construct in a game, but it has a clear message about real-world races.