From tenbones' post #62 in the "Politically Incorrect Stuff in Your Gaming Worlds", there was this:

Quote from: tenbones;1057919I've said for some time - an SJW RPG would be one of dystopian authoritarian nightmares. The fact that SJW's whether overtly or out of ignorance view the world's issues through a pathological post-modernist view point, where language and dialogue "create objective reality" - which is where the insane idea that "words are violence", makes it very difficult for them to understand the difference between being heroic and villainous.

Quote from: tenbones;1057919In fantasy - Sauron was just trying to establish world order where everyone would be equal under his Administration. All those pesky white-patriarchal humans and elves were denying resources to those Humanoids of Color. Sauron embraces diversity in his forces to prove that diversity is strength - Orcs, Goblins, Trolls and Southrons all worked together to smash the Imperial Colonialists from Valinor. It's all relative! Heh

Huh. I'm running an upcoming game like the latter one. I'm curious what you'd think of it, but from this view it's the opposite of politically incorrect (hence the thread title).

It's called "Out from the Temple", and the convention description goes like:

QuoteFor ages, the Temple of the Elements has been in near ruins, with the few poor souls trying to keep alive this once-great spiritual center. But now the temple is threatened by the gathering forces of evil lurking in nearby camps and strongholds. As adventurous new visitors to the temple, you are recruited to push back the encroaching evil.

This is a classic D&D game using 5th edition, but playing so-called monsters defending their underground homes and places of worship.

I thought of it as a twist on the usual mode of play. The PCs band together and interact socially in the dungeon, and then go out to an evil town and fight. It's not in Middle Earth or a typical D&D world, but instead one where the good / civilized races are the ones that are evil in standard D&D.

Some of the character descriptions for the premade characters I have are below:

QuoteOrc paladin
Your people, the orcs, have always lived simply and plainly. They work hard and shun the fancy trappings of other races. An orcish tool will never be as beautiful as drow handiwork, but it will do its job dependably. Orcs till the soil and make a living even in places that other races avoid as wastelands. The elves have their green forests, the dwarves the rich mountains, and the gnomes their fertile hills. Meanwhile, orcs make a simple living in among trackless jungle, treacherous crags, and barren rocky fields.
But you are different than most. You have seen the injustices too often against your people and others. When orcs prosper, then the evil races make war on them and take the fields they cleared and the wilderness they tamed. You are a holy warrior of Gruumsh, and cannot stand to see wrongs unpunished.
Goblin bard
The merry little goblins are often dismissed as frivolous jokers. The caverns rings with their songs - and they prize humor especially. "Where there's a wit, there's a way" goes the old goblin song. But there is more to them than that. Goblins also prize stories, and keep a rich oral tradition. They are also quick and sly. Sometimes they will play pranks on others, but they also sometimes give unseen help to those in need - like mending tools or shoes.
You are a storyteller and loremaster among your people. One of the oldest stories was of the great Temple of the Elements - a structure to many gods grouped by all the elements of the world. There was cooperation between all the civilized races, and its good influence spread wide across both the Underdark and the surface world. But armies of humans and other evil races massed to destroy the temple long ago, and it passed from memory. You have worked to gather others in your quest to find and help restore the temple.
Kobold sorcerer
The inscrutable kobolds are short of stature, but they try to live up to their draconic heritage with their industry and culture. Kobolds ceaselessly build great works honoring their heritage. Dragons are revered not just for their power, but for the variety of virtues they represent. The cool calm of white, the dark rumination of black, the clean purity of green, the sudden inspiration of blue, and the righteous fire of red. Kobolds are particularly known for their deep philosophy and cunning engineering.
You grew up in a family of spider silk weavers, creating beautiful tapestries of dragons and their wonders. So when your sorcerous talent arose as you neared adulthood, it was natural that you wanted to use it to honor draconic values. You had heard for ages of the Temple of the Elements, and set off to find it on your own.

I hadn't thought of this as "SJW" or "politically correct" - but maybe to some people it is. Feel free to post about any of your games that others might regard as politically correct, or commenting about this game and its category.

I have players who come up with reasons - and really mean it - why the Lawful humans are the Real Monsters who need to Die Horribly. And there's my son, who thinks kobolds are cool - the Stonehell kobolds actually are pretty decent overall.

I don't really think of "Kill all Humans" type games as Politically Correct. Politically Correct content IMCs would be stuff like in my Forgotten Realms 'Loudwater' game ca 2013, the local wizard Curuar the Brazen, and the local priest whose name escapes me, 'came out' as a male homosexual couple at Lady Moonfire's Midsummer Ball, to generally positive reaction/mild indifference. I think Lady Moonfire might have taken this opportunity to also be more open about her own relationship with her Tiefling girlfriend, whose name I think was something pornstarish like Tawni Kytten. The latter lesbian couple would be un-PC 'male gaze' on its own, but I think gets a pass for being ancillary to the male couple's announcement.

My mostly left-liberal players really loved that session, just going to a Ball and dancing with their love interests. I think it was the only session in 5.5 years of running that 4e D&D campaign without any combat. Now that's PC.

Please tell me that this is set in the temple of elemental evil. It's just too perfect

For years a very major theme in my Wilderlands campaign was battling the explicitly Neo-Nazi-esque Black Sun network, genocidal racial supremacists seeking to gain influence over the ethnic Nerathi people and restore the Empire of Nerath. The initial situation was set up so that, depending on player action, it could either go all Star Trek TNG peace & understanding, or go all 1990s Balkan Civil War.
It went the bad way.
Towards the end of the first phase of the campaign ca 2011/12, a player Jasper had an epiphany - that the violence his PC Varek Tigerclaw was visiting on the Neo-Nerathi and their families in the name of fighting the Black Sun was itself strengthening the Black Sun, by providing both moral justification for their outlook and aggrieved victims looking for revenge.

He said:
"There are no good guys here."

That was great.

I have to say, I think nowadays, with the rise of Antifa and the mainstream media openly promoting "Punch a Nazi", I might well be reluctant to run that game.

Quote from: Azraele;1057970Please tell me that this is set in the temple of elemental evil. It's just too perfect

Well, duh. :-)

Yes, I am using the 1E "Temple of Elemental Evil" module for maps and material - adapted to the alternate world.

Quote from: jhkim;1057964From tenbones' post #62 in the "Politically Incorrect Stuff in Your Gaming Worlds", there was this:



Huh. I'm running an upcoming game like the latter one. I'm curious what you'd think of it, but from this view it's the opposite of politically incorrect (hence the thread title).

It's called "Out from the Temple", and the convention description goes like:


I thought of it as a twist on the usual mode of play. The PCs band together and interact socially in the dungeon, and then go out to an evil town and fight. It's not in Middle Earth or a typical D&D world, but instead one where the good / civilized races are the ones that are evil in standard D&D.

Some of the character descriptions for the premade characters I have are below:



I hadn't thought of this as "SJW" or "politically correct" - but maybe to some people it is. Feel free to post about any of your games that others might regard as politically correct, or commenting about this game and its category.

I wouldn't consider those setting elements to be politically correct. I find them rather interesting and I think that I would enjoy playing an orc (or goblin or kobold) in a game like that. Playing or running a game where the savage races are the protagonists is something that has interested me for a while and I have written up some setting elements along those lines, though I've never played in such a game.

As for my own games, settings, or characters that might be considered politically correct - there could be a few of them. I don't consider them to be politically correct or SJW, and I'm pretty hyperaware of that sort of thing, but maybe somebody would especially without context.

I played in and helped develop a setting with a nation that had warrior women. These women shaved their heads and had tattoos. This nation also tolerated homosexuality and promiscuity. I played a character from this nation, she was a fighter-rogue and was bisexual. On the topic of warrior women, I have a number of combat oriented female characters over the years - including a warrior priestess of a pagan-like religion and a Pathfinder Skald.

One game I ran a while ago was set in the aftermath of a civil war where a nation ruled by magic users was overthrown by the non-magical peasants and many of the resulting countries (the original nation split up) were far more egalitarian and less hierarchal than typical fantasy or medieval nations.

I have an idea for an upcoming game where there is a dark lord kind of ruler who was defeated years ago and who the players learn wasn't nearly as bad as they were lead to believe.

I once played a lesbian scientist character in a game set in the Firefly universe.

I once created a nation in a RPG setting (it was a collaborative effort by several people) which was entirely black, basically a nation of grassland archers in a hot savannah (like parts of Africa) rather than hot steppes like we see more often.

I don't consider any of these things particularly PC or leftist, at least not in the modern meaning, though.

What makes what I posted pertinent was the implication BY SJW's that this perspective was "politically correct". Your premise isn't "SJW" based on what you wrote, it's becomes so if you're trying to perpetrate that ideology as a method for pushing that ideology for ulterior motives.

I *love* the idea of a Goblinoid game against Humans! I don't find it politically transgressive at all. My god, how long have we been playing RPG's and I've seen it time and again the justification for killing orcs and hobgoblins on sight. Why *couldn't* they be "more" than just XP-pinatas for murder-hoboing "good races"?

SJW's that use this argument are making real-world analogies to fantasy elements to justify their beliefs that the real world is just like Imperial Colonialism and free of context, everyone is just like everyone else. The degree to which this is the actual case is on the world-building side. SJW's don't tend to get this.

This is why in Supers games (and in comics themselves) people that follow this ideology don't *really* seem to understand what being 'heroic' is. Because their views of their beliefs are very surface level and contextually empty. Put into context - their heroes are the worst kind of authoritarian and identity-politics driven characters that will justify their actions by those views. Classic villain stuff. Magneto *is* the apotheosis of a perfectly contextual SJW in practice.


In your example above - all of those things are perfectly fine. Once you add in the deeper cultural context you can really play around with the ethical dilemmas. Threading the needle is establishing the fact that Orcs, Goblins, Trolls etc. are their own distinct cultures that do as general practices.

Define objectively, and you'll know how to do the setup for your Player-Character Humanoids in order to determine what is Politically Correct/Not-Politically Correct. Political correctness is relative. Ethics and Morality aren't.

Monsters! Monsters! is from 1976 and its all about playing Monsters dealing with a world of humans taking our stuff and killing our peeps.
The fantasy genre has loads of stories where traditional power structures are overthrown or flipped from default "good" to default "bad".

Also, as there are plenty of LGBT across the political spectrum so there's no reason for Gay = Leftist. Milo the Lawful Cleric could be an entertaining character.

Quote from: ShieldWife;1057978I wouldn't consider those setting elements to be politically correct.
I don't consider any of these things particularly PC or leftist, at least not in the modern meaning, though.

I'm with Shieldwife here, jhkim. Why would you consider your setting politically correct? I mean, it sounds a lot like the D&D Gazetteer "Orcs of Thar".

Quote from: jhkim;1057972Well, duh. :-)

Yes, I am using the 1E "Temple of Elemental Evil" module for maps and material - adapted to the alternate world.

Jesus dude you've got to share this thing with us. It's *PERFECT*

I don't consider your idea politically correct nor incorrect.

Do you WANT to make it politically correct? Because we could brainstorm the "problematic" parts of your idea into a nice colorless pasty sanitized conforming blank-staring hollow shell of its former self. I'm pretty confident we could (hilariously I might add) fix this shit post-haste. You just hollar bro. I feel like theRPGsite is up to this task.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1057982Monsters! Monsters! is from 1976 and its all about playing Monsters dealing with a world of humans taking our stuff and killing our peeps.
The fantasy genre has loads of stories where traditional power structures are overthrown or flipped from default "good" to default "bad".

The fantasy genre has a lot of variety. I would distinguish between playing the bad guys versus flipping good to bad.

Something like Maleficent or Wicked is more like flipping good to bad. The traditional villain turns out to really a true hero when you see them fully. That's more the genre of my Out from the Temple game.

On the other hand, Monsters! Monsters! as well as similar RPG supplements like RuneQuest's Trollpak or AD&D's Orcs of Thar are about playing the bad guys. It's more like a gangster movie - I can't think of a fantasy film reference, but the novel Grendel would be an example. Monsters! Monsters!  has bits like: "Monsters get experience points for wanton cruelty and destruction above and beyond the call of duty." The setting is unchanged - and the monsters really are evil, and the twist is just who the PCs are.

Nothing wrong with either of these in RPGs, from my view. As for whether it's politically correct - again, I was reacting to tenbones' description of an SJW fantasy game,

Quote from: tenbonesIn fantasy - Sauron was just trying to establish world order where everyone would be equal under his Administration. All those pesky white-patriarchal humans and elves were denying resources to those Humanoids of Color. Sauron embraces diversity in his forces to prove that diversity is strength - Orcs, Goblins, Trolls and Southrons all worked together to smash the Imperial Colonialists from Valinor. It's all relative! Heh

We're now agreed, but that does sound a lot like my game.

Quote from: jhkim;1058014We're now agreed, but that does sound a lot like my game.

The premise of good guys as bad guys and vice versa isn't PC. But Tenbone's description of the "propoganda" does sound PC. Especially the part about them blaming the white patriarchy and claiming diversity of race instead of thought.

Quote from: jhkim;1058014Monsters! Monsters!  has bits like: "Monsters get experience points for wanton cruelty and destruction above and beyond the call of duty." The setting is unchanged - and the monsters really are evil, and the twist is just who the PCs are.

True, but in actual play, players identify with their PCs and quickly want to go from playing villains to playing anti-heroes. You see that with Vampire too.

Also, remember the whole "Can Paladins kill Orc babies?" wankery? I've played in multiple M!M! events where the PCs are trying to save the ugly orc babies from the paladins.  

Few groups can maintain We Be Evil! week after week. Even the Darkblade novels in Warhammer only work because the utterly evil Dark Elf protagonist is constantly dealing with foes that make his vileness look almost acceptable.

AKA, I think your Defend the Temple is a great idea, but I suspect your players may need "positive" motivations long term. In my experience, things in an Evil PC group get wobbly when 1-2 players are really getting into We Be Evil and the other players aren't fully aboard with the wanton cruelty.

But I'm the guy who opened his last M!M! game with "You're all sitting around the lair cooking human babies..." and had the PCs introduce each other as my "Evil Tavern Intro."

Quote from: Spinachcat;1058083Few groups can maintain We Be Evil! week after week. Even the Darkblade novels in Warhammer only work because the utterly evil Dark Elf protagonist is constantly dealing with foes that make his vileness look almost acceptable.

AKA, I think your Defend the Temple is a great idea, but I suspect your players may need "positive" motivations long term. In my experience, things in an Evil PC group get wobbly when 1-2 players are really getting into We Be Evil and the other players aren't fully aboard with the wanton cruelty.

Actually, if you read the background descriptions, the PCs are all very positive. I'm slightly worried that the characters will seem too goody-two-shoes. Here are the other character backgrounds, for a sample -

QuoteDrow wizard
The drow are sometimes accused of too much pride, but you have much to be proud of. Your people have woven swaths of the Underdark into elegant wonderlands, and your society is a model of equality and interdependence. Within the drow's web of social relations, everyone has a part to play. On the other hand, drow can be insular from outsiders, and are often misunderstood. Short-lived races can have trouble seeing time as the drow do.
You are a delver into the mysteries of magic, and are active in breaking out of the drow's insular culture to bring their magic and learning to the rest of civilization. You are free to do this, but have not been supported the way you like. It is your hope that if the Temple of the Elements can be restored, that it will be a place where drow learning is shared with the learning of other races.

Bugbear barbarian
Bugbears are sometimes seen as feral animals, which is partly true. You have wild instincts, but you also have a strong culture of ethics. Your people are built strong and tough compared to your goblin cousins, but you are also known for your honesty and loyalty. You have a strong oral tradition of laws, starting from "Bugbear shall not kill bugbear". You build tools and shelter, but their construction is primitive compared to most civilized races.
You are a classic defender of bugbear values, raised in their traditions and learned in the ways of the wild.

Gnoll ranger
Gnolls are a nomadic people - very tall and thin, resembling a hybrid of orc and hyena. For you as a gnoll, family is everything. From birth, you are known for your affection not only to your immediate family, but to all in your clan. Like your animal cousins, you will often sleep in piles nestled against each other lovingly. Clans are nomadic, wandering from one hunting ground to another. Your people have well-developed crafts and metalworking, but you will also use whatever you find and build only what is strictly necessary. In a gnoll clan, everything is shared and nothing is wasted.
You are a oddity among gnolls, one who goes out alone to scout, find new territory, and recover those who are lost. You still have the affection of your clan that carries you, but you don't need their presence for a long time. Still, it can become lonely - and you are glad for companions. For years, you have believed the lore that the Temple of the Elements is still out there, and can be restored to be a beacon to all the good races. Finally, three months ago you left your clan to prove your claim.

Hobgoblin fighter
Many have commented on the stark contrast of the short, comedic goblins and the tall, stoic hobgoblins. As a hobgoblin, your life revolves around honor and there is little of the goblins' frivolity. It is your duty to make life secure and free for all goblinoids so that frivolity is possible. You do not seek to rule, but all too often the ceaseless attacks of evil races demand military leadership of goblinoid communities. Hobgoblins also have their own fondness for art and esthetics, but it is both simpler and more refined. Hobgoblin poetry, for example, is measured stanzas of certain syllables compared to the goblins' bawdy rhymes and songs.
Personally, you are a knight errant - a staunch travelling defender of goblinoid values. You are trained in warfare but understand that it should only be the last resort. Your mentor instilled in you the seriousness of the endeavor, and you learned of historical battles. You grieved at the slaughter that followed once humans established a keep on the borderlands of your people. They cannot be allowed to gain a foothold, or war and death will inevitably follow.

Yuan-ti cleric
The yuan-ti have always been known for their wisdom and healing, such that their symbol - a staff with snakes winding around it - has become a universal symbol of medicine. The legend goes that ages ago, a wise healer helped a wounded mother snake, and in return the snakes granted him their aid and lore. You, his descendants, bear the gifts of the snake. Each yuan ti has some serpentine features, ranging from minor reptilian features to almost fully snakelike. All forms of yuan-ti, though, continue the founder's tradition. You mostly dwell in temples in safe remote regions, but are known to go out and bring aid to other races.
You are a cleric of the ancient god Merrshaulk, dedicated to helping not just his worshippers, but all those in need of healing and guidance.

I'm still editing these, but I'm mostly satisfied with the takes. The characters are all good and want to help others, for the most part.

The one bit of conflict I foresee is the protective bossiness of the hobgoblin.