Quote from: AsenRG;954987My experience confirms this.
Yet you never hear people complaining about low HD rolls on forums. Sometimes I wonder why.

Oh theres been bitching about it for a long time. Pretty sure theres examples and "fixes" in Dragon somewhere.

Quote from: Spinachcat;954988But that's not zero-to-hero which is what early D&D, Gamma World, RuneQuest, CoC, T&T, etc was about.

Gamma World, least the early versions, your characters start off fully fledged and, barring mutations, dont change.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;955048nDervish's last point goes to this: if I play my character well and Fate is kind, then my character may become a special snowflake. Until then, he's just this guy, y'know?

I have a better suggestion, I dare say:
If you roll at random, and most rolls end up as 8 or less, then your character may actually be a child, following a parent or auntie/uncle on adventures(or being a runaway), and if you get a lot over 12, then your character is already a seasoned veteran.
However, both are as much of "special snowflakes" as their players want them to be, because I find that to be more of a mindset.
I mean, anyone taking on adventures with so low stats are either desperate, stupid, or having help.
Neither choice sound truly like "just this guy".

By the way, the arguments made for straight rolls has made me interested in trying them, as long as I get to place each roll where I like it.

Quote from: Nexus;955014Thanks for the information, I guess. But ss I indicated, its pretty tangential to my point: D and D's character generation platforms were random when I was trying it so I moved on.

So the red box with the dude about to killed by a dragon, Aleena the cleric, Bargle, etc is "OD and D"?

B to BX to niminally BECMI is OD&D, just better organized and a few minour tweaks. And yes. Red box dies have point swapping. And yes your dismissal of the game just because of random stat gen does come across as a bit heavy handed.

Quote from: cranebump;955049Let's face it: regardless of creation method, all characters are snowflakes, or snowflakes-in-waiting. Until they're dead, of course.:-)

From experience as a DM and a player. Snowflakes also melt away to nothing when the heat gets turned on.

You just need a DM willing to turn up the heat and not be a doormat.

All that said. Sometimes the accusation gets applied to characters who arent really. The player selected a rare race or class because it interested them. Not for the attention. Just because it looked fun.

And lets face it. Playing a bad statted character can also very much be a snowflake too of the "oh woe is me! I is for the gimpethed!"

But for some of us we'll play it for the challenge. To see how far they will go.

Quote from: Omega;955075B to BX to niminally BECMI is OD&D, just better organized and a few minor tweaks.

Cool, I rarely know what people are talking about when the used the shortened nicknames. Like I said I don't follow D and D much at all.

QuoteAnd yes. Red box dies have point swapping.

I wasn't arguing that it didn't. It doesn't affect my point.

QuoteAnd yes your dismissal of the game just because of random stat gen does come across as a bit heavy handed.

Yes, I didn't like the play experience it provided after I'd tried it so I moved on to something I liked better. Why play a game I wasn't a having fun and why is that anymore "heavy handed" than not playing in a play style you don't like or a genre you don't enjoy? It wasn't the only reason but random chargen was one of the major ones. And I now avoid random character generation games unless they're easy to mod because I don't enjoy them. Like I avoid Rom-Coms or Vegan cooking because I don't enjoy them.  I get that it a neutral issue or a plus for others. Its not "heavy handed" for others to dismiss Point Buy chargen because they don't like either. I'm not so arrogant as to think my personal preferences are some universal objective standard.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;955054In the WotC variants, if you've got ability scores of 9 straight through, the dice will catch up to you. It might be amusing at first, but eventually, not hitting attacks, failing saves, and being useless on skill checks will stop being fun.

That's why I prefer random point-buy for my 5e games. You've got the randomness, but the most mediocre you can get is 13/13/13/12/12/12, which is still an entirely playable array.

1: This is what I was told as a player in 3e. That you pretty much needed certain stats a certain level to get by even. Im still dubious if thats true as my character never got really deep in levels before the campaign puttered out. But comments by others seem to indicate it can be an issue?

2: And with a human character that turns into a 14/14/14/13/13/13. Not bad really. The group I play with as a player actually have discussed doing an all fighter group with all the same stats at the start like that.

Quote from: Omega;955078Playing a bad statted character can also very much be a snowflake too of the "oh woe is me! I is for the gimpethed!"

But for some of us we'll play it for the challenge. To see how far they will go.

What's also being missed is that if low stats genuinely are a problem, your character will die soon and then you have a chance to roll up something better. And if they don't die and you're "stuck" with this crappy character... maybe they actually aren't that crappy?

Quote from: estar;954659Exactly. What the issue boils down is that the players want to play a particular character that may or may not fit into the referee's campaign. It is reasonable to expect that the player and referee can sit down and figure it out. There no general rule other than those of common courtesy.

It OK for a OD&D campaign to say OK you start with a 18 charisma so you can play as a paladin. It also OK for a referee to say you have to roll 3d6 straight it how I run my campaigns. OD&D is not going to suddenly emit a fart and have a nuclear shit in either case.

And in OD&D the only difference is a damn experience point boost.  Crom's corn-loaded shit on toast, a fighter with a strength of 3 advances slower due to the XP bonus/penalty, but IN ALL OTHER WAYS is totally identical to a fighter with Strength of 18.

Quote from: AsenRG;954797Are you even serious?

Where the hell have you been for the last ten years?  Sadly, though his intent was sarcastic, he is indeed as serious as chest pains and tingling down your left arm.

I notice those who scream loudest about bad stats are those most ignorant of the difference between editions.

Quote from: Spinachcat;954782Dudebro, didn't you hear? In 2017 pretending to be an elf without crying is FUCKING HARDCORE!!!

QFMFAT, unfortunately.

Quote from: CRKrueger;954766To those who never recovered from the horrors of D&D in 5th grade.

Some can, others carry scars for life.

This is why my "Third Law of Gaming" is "Anything that happened when you, or the referee, were 13, does not constitute a need to change the rules.

Quote from: Omega;954951Pretty much. Which makes one wonder why roll stats in the first place since aside from Charisma and Intelligence they don't actually do much? Some holdover from Chainmail? Or there for stat checks?

Because Gygax wanted to scar players' psyches' for years to come!! WAAAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Because "he thought it was fun" can't possibly be right.  Rolling to see what you get was considered by us to be fun.

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954948What in your mind makes a cooperative hobby like D&D, or any other ttrpg, such an appropriate medium for shaming those who want more fairness, a foundational human value?

If everyone rolls 3d6 in order six times, that's completely fair.  Everyone has the same chances.

Quote from: Nexus;955014Thanks for the information, I guess. But as I indicated, its pretty tangential to my point: D and D's character generation platforms were random when I was trying it so I moved on.

So the red box with the dude about to killed by a dragon, Aleena the cleric, Bargle, etc is "OD and D"?

Nope.  OD&D is the woodgrain box with three booklets.

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