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Author Topic: Point-Buy  (Read 15344 times)

RPGPundit

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Point-Buy
« on: March 29, 2017, 01:55:13 AM »
So, anyone here want to actually defend point-buy character creation over random rolls?
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Point-Buy
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2017, 05:17:28 AM »
Depends on the game/edition.

In 3e/4e/5e D&D random rolls can work badly because of the "+1 bonus per 2 points of attribute" system, PCs vary wildly in power while the systems are built for long-term characters of similar power who are rarely replaced. For those systems Default Array tends to work best, Point Buy next best - though the 4e & 5e Point Buy systems both work well IME. I would say though that in 3e/PF I found that rolling can still work ok if it's roll-in-order, whereas "roll and assign as desired" is effectively "variable point buy".

Rolling works very well with the Classic D&D attribute bonus system, and combines well with fast chargen and frequent generation of new characters. Again, roll-in-order works much better than assign-as-desired in creating organic feeling characters.

Voros
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Point-Buy
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2017, 06:01:58 AM »
I like it. Not sure what the argument against it is honestly. I found most people would just roll again and again until they get the character they want anyway so why waste all that time?

I seriously doubt most people did the 3d6 in order chargen as if they did Paladins and Bards would have been rarer than hen's teeth in 1e.

4d6 drop the lowest and put it in any order seems like a good compromise that also works.

finarvyn

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Point-Buy
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2017, 06:21:08 AM »
Quote from: Voros;954105
I like it. Not sure what the argument against it is honestly. I found most people would just roll again and again until they get the character they want anyway so why waste all that time?

I seriously doubt most people did the 3d6 in order chargen as if they did Paladins and Bards would have been rarer than hen's teeth in 1e.

4d6 drop the lowest and put it in any order seems like a good compromise that also works.
I grew up with OD&D and we did 3d6 in order a lot, and yes certain classes were very rare.

Nowadays I like point-buy because it's a fair way to start out. I never did it this way prior to 5E, but I like the fact that everyone gets the same starting value in their character and they can customize it to be the way they like. In my group some players always came up with absurdly high stats and others with absurdly low stats (even with me watching) and so certain players got advantages that other didn't get. So, I'm a convert.
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JeremyR

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Point-Buy
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2017, 06:54:22 AM »
I'm skeptical anyone really grew up with OD&D, since OD&D lasted a grand total of 4 years before being replaced by AD&D, and even then it wasn't a national thing until '76 or so and before that was mostly restricted to college students in a handful of colleges.

I started playing in '78 (after the PHB but before the DMG came out, my DM was one of those college students, the older brother of a friend) and my first character was a Paladin. We actually did do 3d6, but not in order and I remember amazing the DM because I also had rolled an 18 in addition to the 17 I used for Charisma. (Alas, my paladin died failing an ability check (dexterity) trying to cross a crevasse by walking on a log spanning it in plate mail.)

Basic D&D I could understand, but that used a different ability bonus scale to compensate. But once the DMG came out in '79, 3d6 in order was never an option in AD&D, other than one method where you did that like 12 times and picked the best.

Anyway, as to point buy, some people like playing characters they want, not what they roll.  And as those people tend to be the ones that whine and bitch a lot, point buy shuts them up. As someone who generally doesn't, I don't really care, and conversely, rolling actually gives you a chance at really high stats, while point buy generally doesn't.  In either OD&D or AD&D, having a fighter with 18 strength really makes a tremendous difference. Or so does Con, for that matter. I remember once having a Ranger with 23 hp at 1st level, while one of the fighters had 6.

And as my ranger went on to have a fairly long career and the guy with the 6 hp fighter didn't, I can see how some might find the playing field to be more level

So what I generally do for games I run, is have players roll, but have minimums. If you don't have a certain minimum, you can use point buy to bring the ability scores up to a certain level of competence.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 06:57:34 AM by JeremyR »

nDervish

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Point-Buy
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2017, 06:54:53 AM »
Quote from: Voros;954105
I like it. Not sure what the argument against it is honestly. I found most people would just roll again and again until they get the character they want anyway so why waste all that time?

...and then there are those of us who don't have a specific character we want and are looking to the dice to tell us, or at least to make a suggestion.

estar

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Point-Buy
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2017, 08:50:51 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;954071
So, anyone here want to actually defend point-buy character creation over random rolls?

It a preference both work equally well. As such it is a non-issue. For me I think a system that allows both to be ideal. I would rig it so that the random roll system on average will produce a higher range of starting stats than point buy. But the risk of lower average stats will still be there. Of course there is the chance of rolling higher than what point buy allows.

estar

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Point-Buy
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2017, 09:05:21 AM »
Quote from: JeremyR;954114
I'm skeptical anyone really grew up with OD&D, since OD&D lasted a grand total of 4 years before being replaced by AD&D, and even then it wasn't a national thing until '76 or so and before that was mostly restricted to college students in a handful of colleges.

It all about founders effect, given the spread out release of AD&D it quite plausible that people were introduced via OD&D and stuck with it. In fact while growing up I knew of one group of college age gamers who used OD&D and one group of kids who used OD&D as well. What you forget is that the White Box OD&D boxed set was in print and in stores well into the early 80s.


The norm among folks my age, high school, was kitbashing, throwing whatever one liked into a campaign, shaking it up, and playing. The difference between what going on in 1980 in my town versus 1970 in the upper midwest is that the blokes in the upper midwest had to write their own rules from scratch, while those of us in northwest PA were using stuff from Dragon, different editions of D&D, other RPGs, etc, etc and combining however we liked.

RunningLaser

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Point-Buy
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2017, 09:12:46 AM »
Point buy tends to elicit less at the table grousing during character creation.  

Either is fine by me.

Trond

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Point-Buy
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2017, 10:43:16 AM »
Quote from: estar;954128
.....For me I think a system that allows both to be ideal. I would rig it so that the random roll system on average will produce a higher range of starting stats than point buy. But the risk of lower average stats will still be there. ......

YES! This is my thinking as well. I have actually seen an RPG that did the opposite (can't remember which one), and I thought it was ridiculous. If a player chooses to do it non-randomly, than make the rules so that the average character would be slightly weaker, and vice versa for random characters.

Larsdangly

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Point-Buy
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2017, 10:53:31 AM »
I like it, but only when the rules system presents you with some hard choices. TFT does a good job at this, as you can't really game the system - there are only 3 stats, and even if you treat one as a 'dump' stat, the remaining two still present you with a tricky choice. There are lots of choices that are different from one another in play, but tough to choose between because they all contain advantages and disadvantages. I find GURPS to be a bit much, which is funny because it is so closely related to TFT. I think it might be because the playing field of stats, skills and advantages is so vast that there are lots of little 'pockets' in the rules where you can game/min-max your way to a strong advantage in combat or some other situation. Plus the guidelines re. point totals are loose, so people tend to play heroic characters, which are actually sort of boring and same-y in this system.

Sommerjon

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Point-Buy
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2017, 10:57:28 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;954071
So, anyone here want to actually defend point-buy character creation over random rolls?
Is there a need to?

Quote from: nDervish;954115
...and then there are those of us who don't have a specific character we want and are looking to the dice to tell us, or at least to make a suggestion.
Congratulations for the needless establishing that people are completely in their right to like different approaches to character creation.  

Good Job.  :thumbsup:
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Tod13

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Point-Buy
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2017, 11:09:04 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;954071
So, anyone here want to actually defend point-buy character creation over random rolls?

I wouldn't say it is one against the other but that they are complementary. Both have their good points--I don't consider either as having bad points. It really depends on what the player wants to do.

If you have a particular character concept that you really want to play--point buy is awesome as it lets you create it.

If you want to play the cards you're dealt, and come up with a concept that fits randomly non-optimal, uber-optimal, asymmetrical , or average stats--random rolls are awesome as it can create a fun character concept you hadn't considered.

Black Vulmea

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Point-Buy
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2017, 12:09:07 PM »
Quote from: Voros;954105
I seriously doubt most people did the 3d6 in order chargen as if they did Paladins and Bards would have been rarer than hen's teeth in 1e.

Quote from: 1e AD&D DMG, "CREATING THE PLAYER CHARACTER," p 11
GENERATION OF ABILITY SCORES
As AD&D is an ongoing game of fantasy adventuring, it is important to allow participants to generate a viable character of the race and profession which he or she desires. While it is possible to generate some fairly playable characters by rolling 3d6, there is often an extended period of attempts at finding a suitable one due to quirks of the dice. Furthermore, these rather marginal characters tend to have short life expectancy - which tends to discourage new players, as does having to make do with some character of a race and/or class which he or she really can't or won't identify with. Character generation, then, is a serious matter, and it is recommended that the following systems be used. Four alternatives are offered for player characters . . . (emphases in the original - BV)

1e AD&D did not recommend 3d6 in order, but thank you for the knee-jerk edition bash, fuckwit.
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estar

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Point-Buy
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2017, 12:23:51 PM »
Note that if you do 4d6 drop lowest six times then your average result will be.

16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 9

From Anydice

If you do 3d6 straight you will get on average

14, 13, 11, 10, 9, 7

The AnyDice result