Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954396

• It puts every character on an even playing field, stat wise. Shaming gamers who want their PCs to start on a level playing field is as ridiculous as shaming poker players who want to start with the same chips as players who put the same cash into the pot, or shaming parents who want their kids to have the same treatment and opportunities in school as other kids.
• It eliminates the temptation of "Let's see how fast I can get this lame set of stats killed" and "See ya lucky guys, let me know when the next campaign starts." We can shame and blame until we're blue in the face, but everyone has a point at which an acceptable and possibly even creativity-inspiring handicap becomes an intolerable and pointless disability. Different people have different breaking points, but "he who throws the first stone," and all that.
• It's super-convenient for con adventures, and for friendly adventures where there's limited IRL time to play so you want to just be able to say "Show up with a level X (or X amount of XP) character, use point buy Y." ...Well, you can still have players roll at home of course, but that introduces the temptation to cheat.
• For those who show up with a character idea, point buy guarantees that you won't be randomly cockblocked from playing that character.
• It makes DMing easier.
• I like it.

As others on this thread have detailed, there are also stat gen methods that combine features of both random and point buy. The potluck method, the random array method, and a unique card randomizer all come to mind.

Pretty much what I've said.  Can't add much more at this point.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;954343I see that Omega already pointed this out, but Charisma also, by the rules, affects reaction adjustments. . . . I know, lots of people prefer to roleplay social encounters, including 'will the monsters charge, flee, or negotiate,' and thus don't use the reaction table.

Lots of people are pinche vavosos who don't understand that it's not either/or.

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954396

• It puts every character on an even playing field, stat wise. Shaming gamers who want their PCs to start on a level playing field is as ridiculous as shaming poker players who want to start with the same chips as players who put the same cash into the pot, or shaming parents who want their kids to have the same treatment and opportunities in school as other kids.
• It eliminates the temptation of "Let's see how fast I can get this lame set of stats killed" and "See ya lucky guys, let me know when the next campaign starts." We can shame and blame until we're blue in the face, but everyone has a point at which an acceptable and possibly even creativity-inspiring handicap becomes an intolerable and pointless disability. Different people have different breaking points, but "he who throws the first stone," and all that.
• It's super-convenient for con adventures, and for friendly adventures where there's limited IRL time to play so you want to just be able to say "Show up with a level X (or X amount of XP) character, use point buy Y." ...Well, you can still have players roll at home of course, but that introduces the temptation to cheat.
• For those who show up with a character idea, point buy guarantees that you won't be randomly cockblocked from playing that character.
• It makes DMing easier.
• I like it.

Pretty much this.

Not a fan of random rolls.  If I have the opportunity to play in a OSR game, and the GM wants his old-school rolls, then so be it.  His table, his rules.  If I end up with eights in every attribute, I'll be playing Fritz, the delusional hobo, who believes he's a Palladin of the Sacred Temple of Genre.  If he gets geeked, no biggie.  Just a game.

But if it's my table, it's gonna be point-buy up in that motherfucker.  Even if I run an OSR style game, which I do rarely, I'll use a homebrew point-buy system because (A) I prefer such systems and (B) just to annoy the purists.  

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954396

• It puts every character on an even playing field, stat wise. Shaming gamers who want their PCs to start on a level playing field is as ridiculous as shaming poker players who want to start with the same chips as players who put the same cash into the pot, or shaming parents who want their kids to have the same treatment and opportunities in school as other kids.

That is the single stupidest gawdamn thing I've read on this site since . . . geebus, who the fuck am I kidding, that's only the stupidest thing I've read on this site today.

If blue whales could pile up their shit, that's how full of shit your analogies would be.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;954425That is the single stupidest gawdamn thing I've read on this site since . . . geebus, who the fuck am I kidding, that's only the stupidest thing I've read on this site today.

If blue whales could pile up their shit, that's how full of shit your analogies would be.

Vulmea's charismatic style of response aside, I have to agree that those analogies are completely inappropriate, because they both are examples of people in direct competition, the lack of which is pretty much a common identifying feature of what makes RPGs unique.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;954429Vulmea's charismatic style of response aside, I have to agree that those analogies are completely inappropriate, because they both are examples of people in direct competition, the lack of which is pretty much a common identifying feature of what makes RPGs unique.

And there we have it. It's "if Bob has a candy bar, why can't I?" I assume you and Bob are on the same team?

(Gonna remember this the next (first) time someone balks at random roll.

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954396It puts every character on an even playing field, stat wise. Shaming gamers who want their PCs to start on a level playing field is as ridiculous as shaming poker players who want to start with the same chips as players who put the same cash into the pot, or shaming parents who want their kids to have the same treatment and opportunities in school as other kids.

As mentioned three times already, useless and irrelevant analogies.

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954396It eliminates the temptation of "Let's see how fast I can get this lame set of stats killed" and "See ya lucky guys, let me know when the next campaign starts." We can shame and blame until we're blue in the face, but everyone has a point at which an acceptable and possibly even creativity-inspiring handicap becomes an intolerable and pointless disability. Different people have different breaking points, but "he who throws the first stone," and all that.

Most of us play with people who don't count anything other than a 100% hand-picked character as a "pointless disability".  The rest might want to try it.

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954396It's super-convenient for con adventures, and for friendly adventures where there's limited IRL time to play so you want to just be able to say "Show up with a level X (or X amount of XP) character, use point buy Y." ...Well, you can still have players roll at home of course, but that introduces the temptation to cheat.

If I can't trust players, I'm not going to attempt to social engineer them through mechanics, I'm going to flush them.  Con adventures, especially if it's some form of organized play, are an ok reason.

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954396For those who show up with a character idea, point buy guarantees that you won't be randomly cockblocked from playing that character.

Either special snowflake players or bad GMs can't be fixed with mechanics.

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954396It makes DMing easier.

If you can't handle grouping average stat and great stat players, or need stat arrays to make things easier, you need a lot of experience.

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954396I like it.

That's really the only good reason.

Quote from: CRKrueger;954448Either special snowflake players or bad GMs can't be fixed with mechanics.
.

Yeah, because having an idea for a character really makes you a special snowflake. The amount of BS here is really mind boggling. Of course this is a point in favor of point buy systems. A point in favor of random rolls is that you really don't need to come up with anything beforehand.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;954414Lots of people are pinche vavosos who don't understand that it's not either/or.

Indeed. There are times a good CHA score just isnt going to help. Oh do my characters know that all to well. But in a really free-wheeling freeform session it can end up effecting the weirdest things. Which can make for some bemusingly weird encounters.

Quote from: Trond;954464Yeah, because having an idea for a character really makes you a special snowflake. The amount of BS here is really mind boggling. Of course this is a point in favor of point buy systems. A point in favor of random rolls is that you really don't need to come up with anything beforehand.

Its more that there are players who flip their wheels at the idea of random gen or just playing what you get. Or cant stand the thought of anyone having better luck than they. Or are just bummed that they have the suckiest stats of the party. (This last can be a very valid argument.) So point buy can help even the field as it were.
And there are those who just arent good at coming up with a good choice and so point buy or array helps here too.

The reason why some have a bad view of it is that it tends to get abused or makes for potentially boring characters. Personally I allow it and just tell a min maxer type to try again and actually create a character. Not stat mod block.

Others as noted love the challenge of random. I sure do. But I prefer OD&D and BX's allowance of control over that with point shuffling. Or allocation of rolls after all have been rolled.

Quote from: Omega;954472Others as noted love the challenge of random. I sure do. But I prefer OD&D and BX's allowance of control over that with point shuffling. Or allocation of rolls after all have been rolled.

But by even limited movement of points to get what you want, or just allocation, that's pretty much the argument against random rolling.  Because you get a choice to make something closer to what you want, rather than accepting what you got.

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954396It puts every character on an even playing field, stat wise.

Now, I really like and prefer point-buy, but this notion is a myth.
Sure, it levels the playing field in that everyone could make the same character if they wanted, but no more than that, as different stats and skills may be differently valued within the actual gameplay.
I mean, what is a fighter worth in a game that is mostly about intrigues? Or a techie in a fight? Or a rogue on a battlefield?
These are extremes, but small things may easily add up.

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954396Shaming gamers who want their PCs to start on a level playing field is as ridiculous as shaming poker players who want to start with the same chips as players who put the same cash into the pot, or shaming parents who want their kids to have the same treatment and opportunities in school as other kids.

No. This is false equivalence. A game is still a GAME, Cash play is more serious, and Education is Entirely serious.

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954396It eliminates the temptation of "Let's see how fast I can get this lame set of stats killed" and "See ya lucky guys, let me know when the next campaign starts." We can shame and blame until we're blue in the face, but everyone has a point at which an acceptable and possibly even creativity-inspiring handicap becomes an intolerable and pointless disability. Different people have different breaking points, but "he who throws the first stone," and all that.

No, it do not eliminate it, but it may decrease it. Having a Good DM/GM/ST/Whatever also may decrease it, mind you, as do Making Sure That The Character Generation Is Agreed Upon!

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954396It's super-convenient for con adventures, and for friendly adventures where there's limited IRL time to play so you want to just be able to say "Show up with a level X (or X amount of XP) character, use point buy Y." ...Well, you can still have players roll at home of course, but that introduces the temptation to cheat.

Something Truly "Super-convenient" for con games are Pre-made Characters that the GM made beforehand!

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954396For those who show up with a character idea, point buy guarantees that you won't be randomly cockblocked from playing that character.

The Player may still be blocked, as the character might not fit.

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954396It makes DMing easier.

Not really. Random Rolls are actually faster, by far.

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954396I like it.

I like it too, and clearly prefer it.
However, your arguments are not as solid as you may have thought they were.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;954473But by even limited movement of points to get what you want, or just allocation, that's pretty much the argument against random rolling.  Because you get a choice to make something closer to what you want, rather than accepting what you got.

Yeah well Gronan tends to omit that point shuffling is in OD&D whenever he mentions 3d6 in order. Yes. It is different from BX. But the systems are overall the same.

OD&D: Roll 3d6 in order, shuffle points based on class, 1 for 2 or 3 basis, additionally CON & CHA cannot be altered, DEX can be increased but not spent, 9 min.

BX: Roll 3d6 in order, shuffle points based on class, 1 for 2 basis, additionally CON & CHA cannot be altered, DEX can be increased but not spent, 9 min.

BECMI/Cyc/Classic D&D: Roll 3d6 in order, shuffle points. Only Prime, 1 for 2 basis, CON & CHA cannot be altered, DEX can be increased but not spent, 9 min.

Quote from: Tequila Sunrise;954396

• It eliminates the temptation of "Let's see how fast I can get this lame set of stats killed" and "See ya lucky guys, let me know when the next campaign starts."

The easier solution is to eliminate asshats from your table. Why put up with such lame bitches?

Quote from: noman;954418If I end up with eights in every attribute, I'll be playing Fritz, the delusional hobo, who believes he's a Palladin of the Sacred Temple of Genre.  

THIS is the #1 reason hands down for random rolls.

Fritz is a GREAT character. He is x100 more interesting than yet another point buy min/max by the numbers Paladin.

Fritz is a roleplaying gem. And nobody is going to make him in a point buy system.

Here's the joke. STR 8 is -1 to hit and DEX 8 is -1 AC. That's 5% off norm. Considering the swing of a D20, it is laughably possible that Fritz could level up again and again, becoming more memorable with each session.

Quote from: noman;954418If he gets geeked, no biggie.  Just a game.

Is it a biggie when a point buy PC gets geeked?

Quote from: CRKrueger;954448If I can't trust players, I'm not going to attempt to social engineer them through mechanics, I'm going to flush them.

Player murder is a tad harsh even by my standards, but it does keep those players out of the gene pool so you're doing God's work.

Quote from: Catelf;954486Something Truly "Super-convenient" for con games are Pre-made Characters that the GM made beforehand!

Pregens are the only way to go with conventions or game days. There is no time to waste on chargen in a 4 hour slot. Even "quick" chargen takes 15 minutes and there is always THAT DUDE who takes freaking forever to pick skills, spells or gear and now we've lost 30 minutes.  

If there are 6 players, I read out 8 characters. If multiple players want the same PC, its knife fight to first blood or D20 roll highest. PCs are two sides of one sheet, they take 2 minutes to read and we're ready to rock.

Quote from: Omega;954487Yeah well Gronan tends to omit that point shuffling is in OD&D whenever he mentions 3d6 in order. Yes. It is different from BX. But the systems are overall the same.

One additional caveat--attributes mean different things between OD&D an B/X.