Quote from: Spinachcat;954280These days, I think the last Gamma World may have found the best solution. You get an 18 in your prime, a 16 in your secondary and 3D6 for the rest.

No one seemed to like it that I ever talked to. Apparently it felt like catering to munchkins some, and others just didnt like rolling stats as 4th eds default was an array. 16 14 13 12 11 10. But then they also werent keen on having to roll everything except your name and starting gear.

Quote from: AsenRG;954301The target should be 21, other than that, you're right. That's what I'm using in Low Fantasy RPG:).

And for random, I prefer my method of "assign 24d6 to the six stats, between 3 and 6 dice to a stat, then rol and keep the best 3 in all cases".

Ahhh, that's right. You are correct.  (I think I was told this once before, but conveniently forgot it):-)

My main gripe with point-buy is that it tends to take a lot of time. Also, depending on the system, min-maxing with disadvantages and advantages.

Quote from: cranebump;954321I'll take your word for it here, since my experience of 5E, after release, is about 5 sessions. And speaking only for me, I could play with whatever hand I was dealt. I'm just not sure that's what players think when they actually sit down to play 3,4 or 5E. I say this because you have stat bumps seems to indicate that the expectation is that you will end up with at least one high number.

This is why I think we should just give up, start all stats at 10, and then roll d6 or something to add to each stat. Otherwise, the frowny faces come out at having to play a character with a negative.:-/

1: In 5e going array or point buy the highest your stats can get is 15 before race bonus. (During playtest it was max 16) So the expectation seems to be that the characters start out ok in two stats, average in three others and slightly sub par in one stat if array and potentially three high stats but also three sub par stats if point by min-maxing. From there you have your stat points from level up to improve as you please.

2: Drink deeply of their tears.

Quote from: Omega;9543161: And why cant they get LG henchmen? They are just as likely to show up as any other alignment.

Yeah, and all except the LG ones has to be discarded, it seems?
(Random rolls strikes again.)

-----------------------------

......Now to my actual post:

So, i'm late to the party, I see?
8 pages already to a topic which is pretty dear to me.

I most certainly think point buy is best, hands down.
For those not sure of what to play as, it could be good with Archetypes or Pre-made Characters that one can choose between or roll randomly between.

But also, as reality isn't exactly fair nor orderly in where graces are put, I see a validation for including a bit of randomization to top things off, like two random rolls that, depending on roll, may add to base stats, add a skill or two, from basket weaving .... and blacksmithing, to herbal lore or increased weapon skill.
I'd like that.

Quote from: 3rik;954324My main gripe with point-buy is that it tends to take a lot of time. Also, depending on the system, min-maxing with disadvantages and advantages.

That's another reason why I prefer White Wolf's "Storytelling" System(and similar), with stats at 1-5 and skills at 1-5.
It is pretty fast in those areas.
The deciding and min-maxing, however .... well, what's worst, peeps min-maxing or peeps complaining about having "lesser characters"?
Both can be a problem ... or not, depending on the GM and the people playing it.

Well, I guess I'm late to the party. People seem to have put forth the main and most important arguments already. My main argument is to thumbs up Omega's "This again?" and "All work and some work better for some players than others." Opinions on stat determination to me are like opinions on ascending or descending AC-- I honestly do not get why it is a big deal to anyone.

As to the stats themselves, I'm split between wanting to argue that they simply do not matter that much and acknowledging that they matter differently depending upon which edition (or edition+expansions) you are playing with. My first game, a BECMI game DMed by someone who started with OD&D or Holmes, the only thing we used the stats for was the XP bonus in your prime req, Charisma on the reaction table, and ad hoc attribute checks to do things like walk tightropes or whatever. In that, any stat generation method would have worked. 3e and 4e--you really want a high con and prime req, as these tend to modify much of the rolls you will be making (or saves the enemies make to your spells). But even then you can also just dial the challenges you are facing up or down and end up with the same result. Tenbones had it right. High stats won't save you from dumb decisions. And as corollary, low stats won't make you sink if the DM is handing out holy avengers at 2nd level. HD rolls at low levels, wizard spells if those are determined randomly, treasure tables, key save-or-die save attempts--those are the random rolls that truly make or break characters.

Quote from: Omega;954318A STR of 5 or lower and you could only be a MU, Fighters needed at least a 9 STR. An INT of 5 or lower and you could only be a Fighter, MUs needed a 9 INT. WIS 5 or lower and it was Thief only, Clerics needed a 9. DEX 5 or lower and only a Cleric, MUs needed a 6 and Thiefs needed a 9. CON 5 or lower and only Illusionist allowed, Fighters needed a 7. CHA 5 or lower and only assassin allowed.

Dont have 2e handy so not sure if they did away with that or not?

There's a table with minimums. For each of the 4 basic classes you needed a 9 in your prime req to qualify. There wasn't any 'Str <=5, then MU only' type stuff, though.

Quote from: Christopher BradyAnecdote: AD&D Paladins were not rare, they were non-existent. They weren't worth the good rolls that you got. Also fun note, you could have all six stats at 16 in AD&D and you STILL couldn't be a Paladin. Cuz in AD&D the only stat they needed high was Charisma which was 17. Which did nothing, other than modify Henchmen likely hood, which Paladins couldn't really get because any minion gained HAD to be Lawful Good.

Quote from: estar;954281If the referee and the player can't figure out what to do with a 17 or 18 Charisma other than by the rules holding them by the hands perhaps they should be not playing tabletop roleplaying. You are right that characteristics in OD&D don't do in much terms of actual mechanics. There going to be a world of difference in my ruling between a character with a 15 strength trying to portage a rowboat around some rapids and a player with a 5 strength trying to do the same thing despite the lack of any formal mechanic to handle this in OD&D.

I see that Omega already pointed this out, but Charisma also, by the rules, affects reaction adjustments. Am I the only one who thinks that's a really, really big deal? Like, makes it the most powerful stat level big deal? An 18/00 Strength and 18 Con won't make you win a fight better than circumventing the fight in the first place. I know, lots of people prefer to roleplay social encounters, including 'will the monsters charge, flee, or negotiate,' and thus don't use the reaction table. Frankly, that's what I usually do, but in doing so I acknowledge that I'm deliberately taking from the ruleset a really big part of the reason for the charisma stat existing in the first place.

Yes for my MW RPG campaigns the players roll 3d6 down the line. They can do roll a new set if they get a "bad" one but most time they are willing to put up with one or two bad stats. And because I took care not to overemphasize the bonuses, having a -1 or -2 is not as bad it would be in AD&D, 2e or 3e.

The point of me doing this is so I have just enough variation to make the difference between a Knight, Fighter, Paladin, Merchant Adventurer and a Thug meaningful. Of course one may ask why I am adding all those classes in the first place? Because 1) it reflects the reality of the Majestic Wilderlands as it developed over 30 years of play, and 2) my campaign resolves around the adventures that arise from the conflict of culture, and religion. Yes my players explore dungeon, and loot shit, but it set within in a larger context. The larger context is there because that way I give the opportunities for the player to "trash" my setting.

But I don't want to lose the straightforward nature of OD&D so I learn to juggle things and above all play test the shit out of it through actual play. Which is why these arguments are redundant because the proof in actual play. The only thing that ever done wrong it folks not communicating effectively how they made X to work in their campaign. For me I ran MW campaign that used Point buy in the form of GURPS and it worked. Also ran MW campaigns that used random rolls in the form of OD&D and it also worked. Recently I ran MW adventures using Fantasy AGE and a home brew similar to AGE that are both point buy and they too worked.

Now if somebody could point out a campaign failing because they used point buy and or randomly and give a good reason why known solutions could not apply then that would be interesting. But so far all I see is personal opinion on the order of "It's what I like" on the part of the naysayer on either said.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;954343I see that Omega already pointed this out, but Charisma also, by the rules, affects reaction adjustments. Am I the only one who thinks that's a really, really big deal? Like, makes it the most powerful stat level big deal? An 18/00 Strength and 18 Con won't make you win a fight better than circumventing the fight in the first place. I know, lots of people prefer to roleplay social encounters, including 'will the monsters charge, flee, or negotiate,' and thus don't use the reaction table. Frankly, that's what I usually do, but in doing so I acknowledge that I'm deliberately taking from the ruleset a really big part of the reason for the charisma stat existing in the first place.

Its a really big deal since it can turn foes into friends or at least keep them from jiffybaking you with their fire breath. Its also useful for snap encounter reactions. You run into some orcs as you explore some caves and for whatever reason on first sight the leader, or all of them take a liking to the high CHA PC and arent hostile as long as the party isnt. Its not quite as omni-powerful as it is in BX. But a 30%+ bonus for good CHA is potentially very far reaching.

And it can get the PC in all sorts of trouble from unwanted attention. Followers, suitors, overly friendly animals. Jealous Dragons... ow...

Quote from: Willie the Duck;954343I see that Omega already pointed this out, but Charisma also, by the rules, affects reaction adjustments. Am I the only one who thinks that's a really, really big deal? Like, makes it the most powerful stat level big deal? An 18/00 Strength and 18 Con won't make you win a fight better than circumventing the fight in the first place. I know, lots of people prefer to roleplay social encounters, including 'will the monsters charge, flee, or negotiate,' and thus don't use the reaction table. Frankly, that's what I usually do, but in doing so I acknowledge that I'm deliberately taking from the ruleset a really big part of the reason for the charisma stat existing in the first place.

I prefer to roleplay social encounters however Charisma is still hugely important. Because the difference in the ability of players to act, what I am looking for is the plan or thread of logic the player is driving for. I will give a good acting performance its due but by and large I adjudicate the effect of what the player said based on a roll based on his Charisma stat.

A player of a character with a 3 charisma will have a hard time successfully interacting with most people even if what they say is totally coherent and germane to the situation. I have had players be frustrated with low charisma characters because the NPCs kept treating them like shit. To the point where I had to explain out of game to remind them what the deal was.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;954343I see that Omega already pointed this out, but Charisma also, by the rules, affects reaction adjustments. Am I the only one who thinks that's a really, really big deal? Like, makes it the most powerful stat level big deal?

Most powerful by a wide margin. If the group is of the "Charisma is your dump stat" mentality, that's because they play "FIGHTFIGHTFIGHT" and don't have/notice/use Reaction rolls.

New players getting the idea that "maybe you can try talking to the goblins" might yield better (i.e. less lethal for the PCs) results than "roll for initiative" is transformative.

Quote from: darthfozzywig;954380Most powerful by a wide margin. If the group is of the "Charisma is your dump stat" mentality, that's because they play "FIGHTFIGHTFIGHT" and don't have/notice/use Reaction rolls.

New players getting the idea that "maybe you can try talking to the goblins" might yield better (i.e. less lethal for the PCs) results than "roll for initiative" is transformative.

Well, usually. There is an exception. If you can role-play the social interaction instead of rolling, and you aren't playing 'Keep, followers, and fiefdom after name level,' then Charisma really absolutely can become a dump stat, even if you don't play fightfightfight. However, that's deliberately taking from the charisma stat the main things that it is important for (other than qualifying for certain classes in certain editions).

• It puts every character on an even playing field, stat wise. Shaming gamers who want their PCs to start on a level playing field is as ridiculous as shaming poker players who want to start with the same chips as players who put the same cash into the pot, or shaming parents who want their kids to have the same treatment and opportunities in school as other kids.
• It eliminates the temptation of "Let's see how fast I can get this lame set of stats killed" and "See ya lucky guys, let me know when the next campaign starts." We can shame and blame until we're blue in the face, but everyone has a point at which an acceptable and possibly even creativity-inspiring handicap becomes an intolerable and pointless disability. Different people have different breaking points, but "he who throws the first stone," and all that.
• It's super-convenient for con adventures, and for friendly adventures where there's limited IRL time to play so you want to just be able to say "Show up with a level X (or X amount of XP) character, use point buy Y." ...Well, you can still have players roll at home of course, but that introduces the temptation to cheat.
• For those who show up with a character idea, point buy guarantees that you won't be randomly cockblocked from playing that character.
• It makes DMing easier.
• I like it.

As others on this thread have detailed, there are also stat gen methods that combine features of both random and point buy. The potluck method, the random array method, and a unique card randomizer all come to mind.