Alright we got this new card deck item into the store from PAIZO - Plot Twist Cards. A deck of them.
I read the back of it and it started to make me think of that story game stuff that we all debate. However, years ago I found some EVERWAY cards marked down at a Baseball card store and I liked the EVERWAY cards as good videa starters.
The PAIZO PLot Twist Cards -
Each one has an illustration of a possibly plot trwist or McGuffin with a D20/OGL mechanical effect suggested. After that on the card there are four possible variations on the plot idea suggested.
The last three cards in the deck are instructions or suggestions for how to uyse trhe cards in a role playing game, and of course the legalese OGL disclaimer included. They make a pont of saying the GM is still in control of the game, although the phrase 'shared storytelling' is used at least twice.
They're pretty nice...and maybe usable in some future game.
Anyone else seen these?
Anyone else bought a deck of them?
What did you think?
- Ed C.
Odd, I would have expected this in an OGL game that has a narrative control method, like FantasyCraft's Perks. Does Pathfinder have any narrative control mechanic that would allow a player to pull one of these out? Are people inclined towards Narrative RPGs even using Pathfinder?
Looked it up, it's a Gamemastery Line product, which has other stuff besides Pathfinder.
Narrative Control Method?
What the Frak are you talking about?
Its a deck of cards.
- Ed C.
Quote from: CRKrueger;396337Odd, I would have expected this in an OGL game that has a narrative control method, like FantasyCraft's Perks. Does Pathfinder have any narrative control mechanic that would allow a player to pull one of these out? Are people inclined towards Narrative RPGs even using Pathfinder?
Looked it up, it's a Gamemastery Line product, which has other stuff besides Pathfinder.
I think you are not getting it. I'd wager a bet these cards are to be used by the gamemaster for random plot twists.
Quote from: PAIZO's Own Web SiteReady for a whole new way to roleplay? Draw a Plot Twist Card and guide the adventure in directions limited only by your creativity. Plot Twist Cards open up a new experience of shared storytelling, providing players with ways to suggest new events during an adventure or get help when they need it most. Each of the deck's 51 cards presents a different theme that the GM and players, working together, can weave into the game's narrative, as well as related rules effects. With Plot Twist Cards, everyone can help tell the story and enjoy being surprised by new and unexpected turns of fortune.
GameMastery Plot Twist Cards add a new storytelling element to roleplaying games, allowing players to bring their own twists to an adventure's plot. Each card provides a minor story-altering idea along with a few options players can either use as presented or take inspiration from to craft similarly themed suggestions that affect in-game events. Every Plot Twist Card can be interpreted in countless ways, allowing players to suggest minor alterations to a game's events that a GM might add or adapt however best fits the story's needs. Such alterations might bring about an added bit of luck to improve the situation for the PCs or up the ante to create even greater challenges—it's all up to the players and their Game Master!
You bother reading the description Ed? :hmm:
Good thing you didn't bet, Saphim.:D
Quote from: Saphim;396341I think you are not getting it. I'd wager a bet these cards are to be used by the gamemaster for random plot twists.
Krueger seems tro mired in jargon and terminology.
The PAIZO suggestions for their use say they migfht be ghanded out randomly one per player for each time they change level.
I'd rather there was more of a Random Factor to them. IF I ever use them in the future I might do it as a stunt. Ask a player to shuffle the cards thoroughly - then I pull off the top 5 cards.
Those five cards get used by me, the GM, in some way - whatewver way I want during the game session.
Since each card has four possibl suggestions or variations on how to use rhe plot twist on the card some interesting variety is definitely possible.
To me, thats not much different than using the classic
TRAVELLER supplement
76 PATRONS that had a small dice chart of variations after each adventure starter as to what might happen.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar;396345Krueger seems tro mired in jargon and terminology.
So in other words, you still haven't read the description?
There's no doubt that these cards could be used by the GM to kickstart the creative juices and toss in some random options when he's planning a session, without players even knowing the GM has a deck.
It's also not how they are advertised.
Quote from: CRKrueger;396344You bother reading the description Ed? :hmm:
Good thing you didn't bet, Saphim.:D
Funny, nowhere in there do I see the phrase ' narrative control method'.
So does this mean the Story Games folk have invaded and infiltrated parts of PAIZO?
- Ed C.
If so, they also developed a time machine, visited 1987, and infiltrated Lion Rampant (http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/systemdesign/cards/whimsycards.html). Or possibly the idea of removing the viking hat dates back a long ways further than Ron Edwards.
Ars Magica: a real roleplaying game, or product of SWINE?
Yes Ed, a method of "shared storytelling" that lets players "weave events into the game's narrative" is a method of giving them narrative control. I know you speak Klingon, but try to hold on to English a little bit longer.
Leave the Swine and invasion strawman alone, I didn't say it. Pundit will be here at some point I'm sure.
All I said was, popping out a deck of shared narration cards for a game like Pathfinder strikes me as odd. But it's the Gamemastery line, so meant for other games, but still, seems weird to be tossing in shared story stuff into a 3.5 crowd.
Kind of seems like one of those weird marketing things, where someone says "Hey, let's get the storygamer's money too."
Quote from: CRKrueger;396356I know you speak Klingon,,......
Whether I do or don't has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
- Ed C.
I've thought the idea of something like that could be fun for the GM, but I hate that sort of thing for players.
I have a lot of Legend of the Five Rings cards. I made a deck of events once for an L5R game I was planning on running. It would have been interesting.
Quote from: CRKrueger;396344You bother reading the description Ed? :hmm:
Good thing you didn't bet, Saphim.:D
I see the words "idea" and "suggestion" being used a lot in that description. That is not shared authority in regards to the story it is the same thing like you sitting at the table and going "wouldn't it be cool if there were ninjas in there" and then the gamemaster either agress or disagress.
Just with fancy cards.
Quote from: Saphim;396341I'd wager a bet these cards are to be used by the gamemaster for random plot twists.
Quote from: PAIZOPlot Twist Cards open up a new experience of shared storytelling, providing players with ways to suggest new events during an adventure or get help when they need it most. Each of the deck's 51 cards presents a different theme that the GM and players, working together, can weave into the game's narrative, as well as related rules effects. With Plot Twist Cards, everyone can help tell the story and enjoy being surprised by new and unexpected turns of fortune.
GameMastery Plot Twist Cards add a new storytelling element to roleplaying games, allowing players to bring their own twists to an adventure's plot. Each card provides a minor story-altering idea along with a few options players can either use as presented or take inspiration from to craft similarly themed suggestions that affect in-game events. Every Plot Twist Card can be interpreted in countless ways, allowing players to suggest minor alterations to a game's events that a GM might add or adapt however best fits the story's needs. Such alterations might bring about an added bit of luck to improve the situation for the PCs or up the ante to create even greater challenges—it's all up to the players and their Game Master!
Boy, I sure hope you don't retcon all your bets that way. :D
Quote from: Saphim;396398I see the words "idea" and "suggestion" being used a lot in that description. That is not shared authority in regards to the story it is the same thing like you sitting at the table and going "wouldn't it be cool if there were ninjas in there" and then the gamemaster either agress or disagress.
Just with fancy cards.
Yeah, they go out of their way to say "Oh no, this isn't really Forge stuff, the GM has the final say", but C'mon, shared narration is a type of narrative control technique, even if the GM or other players can veto.
Quote from: CRKrueger;396447Yeah, they go out of their way to say "Oh no, this isn't really Forge stuff, the GM has the final say", but C'mon, shared narration is a type of narrative control technique, even if the GM or other players can veto.
Oh I forgot. Everything is about the imaginary pundit/forge war. Gotcha.
Carry on.
Quote from: Saphim;396449Oh I forgot. Everything is about the imaginary pundit/forge war. Gotcha.
Carry on.
No, thats just what CrKrueger fixated on in my comments.
@ Krueger - I don't read website descriptions while walking around the store and checking things/straigtening them out and such. My initial impession before purchasing was based just on what was printed on the back of the package and my past experiences with PAIZO usually making very nice products.
After reading the suggestion cards in the pack it seems this more along the lines of the gaming equivalent of "Hamburger Helper". In this case the hamburger is whatever game you have aleady and these cards are there to help give asmidgeon of variety or spice thiongs up - but still controlled and rationed out by the GM.
- Ed C.
Still don't have the answer to the question of -
Have any of you guys bought these yet?
-OR-
Have you seen them used in play yet?
- Ed C.
Quote from: Saphim;396449Oh I forgot. Everything is about the imaginary pundit/forge war. Gotcha.
Carry on.
Whoa, look at that dodge. So I guess you're just one of those guys that can't admit you jumped the gun and were wrong. Gotcha.
Gotta love the Pundit strawman, poor thing must be in tatters by now it gets used so much.
As you said, there's a whole lot of "suggest" in there. They mention 5 or 6 times that both players and GMs can use these cards, and they also repeat again and again that the GM has final say. The second paragraph is basically saying the same thing 4 different ways. Why are they going well out of their way to hammer the point home that the GM has final say?
The answer is, because they want to sell these things to people who want to use them as a GM idea booster and to people who want to use them in a shared narrative format, so they want to make sure that everyone knows for sure that it's not solely a narrative tool.
Quote from: Koltar;396451Still don't have the answer to the question of -
Answer to original post...
Yes, they have popped up at the FLGS.
No, I have not bought them yet. I may, if I see a preview card and like it.
Yes, if I had them, I would use them as Hamburger Helper, not during an actual session unless the game itself had a mechanism for bringing them in, like FantasyCraft's Perks. I could see popping one of these out as a Perk.
So we know what we're talking about here.
(http://paizo.com/image/content/GameMastery/PZO3014-54.jpeg)
(http://paizo.com/image/content/GameMastery/PZO3014-7.jpeg)
(http://paizo.com/image/content/GameMastery/PZO3014-34.jpeg)
And while we're on the topic of Pathfinder...
(http://webs.ono.com/sodomie/38-pathfinder.2007-.jpg)
Boy I wish the movie was as badass as that poster.
It seems a lot like the Action/Master Deck from West End Games old Masterbook system, doesn't it?
They could be used both for subplotting ("Character has some vested interest in the situation") and to give bonuses on actions ("add +3 to action value of Dexterity").
And to answer the original question - No, I haven't seen them; don't think they've made it across the pond yet, but I certainly think that they would add an interesting dimension to a classic D&D/Pathfinder game and if I am ever gonna run such a game I would consider using them... and they look rather neat.
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;396459It seems a lot like the Action/Master Deck from West End Games old Masterbook system, doesn't it?
I was thinking the old Whimsy cards from the old Ars Magica gang (Lion Rampant, wasn't it?)
Sampling by John Kim:
http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/systemdesign/cards/whimsycards.html
I think someone played the
unexplained event card on the game of my life yesterday when my car window exploded.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;396462I think someone played the unexplained event card on the game of my life yesterday when my car window exploded.
That was me, sorry. It was either that or discard from my hand and effectively lose a turn.
!i!
Quote from: CRKrueger;396455Whoa, look at that dodge. So I guess you're just one of those guys that can't admit you jumped the gun and were wrong. Gotcha.
Gotta love the Pundit strawman, poor thing must be in tatters by now it gets used so much.
No, I'm not dodging anything. I just don't see anywhere anything that suggests to me that this is actually a tool of shared narrative control and not (like I mentioned above) something that isn't already happening at most tables (albeit with fancy cards) AND I am bored of the constant tries to shoehorn stuff into easy to understand boxes.
Quote from: Saphim;396484No, I'm not dodging anything. I just don't see anywhere anything that suggests to me that this is actually a tool of shared narrative control and not (like I mentioned above) something that isn't already happening at most tables (albeit with fancy cards) AND I am bored of the constant tries to shoehorn stuff into easy to understand boxes.
My regular players and I already had a minor version of this going on for years. We use 3 by 5 or 4 by 6 cards and write important notes or side notes back and forth bnetween the GM and player on these.
Originally it was just to initiate stuff that a player wanted to do on her or his own that wasn't really the group's business but it still made sense for the game. OR sometimes I would use a card to tell a player something thatr only her character had detected or remembered because of a roll I did behind the GM screen.
Using 3 by 5 cards this way was often easier than getting up or calling the player over to do the whispering in the ear moment that many game sessions often have.
Aftaer a while, players started using these card communications with me to offer ideas or suggestions or to add backstory to their characters. I would up having to keep the cards in 3-ring binder with the group's regular campaiugn log because so many important bits of detail had been discussed on these cards.
In some weays these PAIZO cards are just overly-formalized vbersions of when my players would suggest things via 3 by 5 or 4 by 6 cards. The difference is my players had suggestions that were specifically connected to the campaign that we were doing.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar;396485My regular players and I already had a minor version of this going on for years. We use 3 by 5 or 4 by 6 cards and write important notes or side notes back and forth bnetween the GM and player on these.
Originally it was just to initiate stuff that a player wanted to do on her or his own that wasn't really the group's business but it still made sense for the game. OR sometimes I would use a card to tell a player something thatr only her character had detected or remembered because of a roll I did behind the GM screen.
Using 3 by 5 cards this way was often easier than getting up or calling the player over to do the whispering in the ear moment that many game sessions often have.
Aftaer a while, players started using these card communications with me to offer ideas or suggestions or to add backstory to their characters. I would up having to keep the cards in 3-ring binder with the group's regular campaiugn log because so many important bits of detail had been discussed on these cards.
In some weays these PAIZO cards are just overly-formalized vbersions of when my players would suggest things via 3 by 5 or 4 by 6 cards. The difference is my players had suggestions that were specifically connected to the campaign that we were doing.
- Ed C.
That's already pretty sophistacted what you got going there.
I think, that every group has something like that going, you talk about the game, you say what you think would be cool, others agree and it happens or they disagree and it doesn't happen.
If THAT is shared authority, then every RPG on the planet is a storygame.
In the case of my old campaign a player would often say something like this :
PLAYER: "Did you read what I wrote in the middle of the card I gave you ?"
ED/ME: "Yes, I read the whole card."
PLAYER: "Well? Is it going to happen? "
ED: "Maybe, maybe not... but it is very much under consideration. You have an interesting idea there. It might not be tonight's game tho."
PLAYER "Okay...cool"
Then she smiles because she got the idea that I was seriously coinsidering the 'whatever-it-was' that she had suggested.
There was one time That suddenly I had an NPC do something and say a bit of dialogue that was very obviously from a player's idea bit. When she noticed, she had a shocked pleased look on her face and after the game she was telling the other players:
"He got that from me!! Ed used an idea I had from a few weeeks ago.."
She was pleased and surprised at the same time in the game. Did a similiar idea moment with her husband's character one time.
- Ed C.