Quote from: jan paparazzi;738890Ah, that is clearer.

One thing: Encounters is something typical fantasy. If you do that in a modern city it might be a bunch of robbers in a dark alley, but you can't really killing people all the time. You might end up in jail doing life. And in case of vampire you might end up tied up on a building's roof for violating the Masquerade. Combat is generally quite scarce. Think the Godfather. All tension with rare sudden bursts of violence. So I don't really see that in the WoD. Although ... perhaps an angry ghoul, a rival vampire, ehhhh ... it shouldn't happen too often though.

The rest is all usable. Especially the Celtrica page. I read it more in detail tomorrow.

Is the Elder Scrolls a sandbox? I mean according to pc games theory it is. But according to tabletop theory it isn't. There aren't any consequences. The only thing that changes is your character (in strength mostly). I found the VtM Bloodlines game to have more consequences to your actions. That was one of the cool things of that game. And the investigation aspects. That game was what drew me into the WoD in the first place.

The fourth rule is what WoD naturally stimulates. So that doesn't need work. The third rule is the biggest difference. Actually I think in the older setting the Metaplot filled the part of the world in motion. Ok, I get back to this later.

My current online game has gone through 13 full group sessions and 22 intermezzo single sessions.  Only one sort of combat.

And yes, consequence and responsibilities are a necessary ingredient.  It is not just that the players can do anything; the world is still spinning, in motion, and the PCs must deal with the reactions of their choices.

Encounters is another word that has shifted over the years. Before it meant anything unknown and potentially altering to one's state, whether this be possible weather phenomena, unexpected new personality, or the traditionally assumed adequate challenge. An old AD&D 2e example pits a high level party versus: arguing amongst themselves, fighting a familiar battle against helplessly low-level orcs, looting amongst themselves, and mere observing a strange new weather phenom; only the weather phenom was an encounter.

What that means is shake up your viewpoint that cities need combat challenges to be encounters. Running IN SJG, I similarly deal with city campaign design and this mental shift has been one of my biggest allies. With people constantly about, and strangeness abounding from it, creating unknown and potentially changing experiences is a given.

So run a person that lasts longer than a passerby, like an alluring NPC, or one attracted to the PC's allure. Suddenly unexpected conversation becomes an encounter to deal with. Have a petty crime or casual kindness catch their eye. Have the sound of an argument or reckless driver rounding the corner. An unusual slice of beauty or ugliness, like new graffiti, or rogue placement of a bunch of flowers. These are things that players may pass up, but it is the details that breathe the world and the opportunity that assesses their pro-active focus.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;738866I also want to find out what a sandbox is.

Some people view it as a map with cities and villages on it ......

Other people view a sandbox as NPC's (or NPC factions) .....

So what is it? Or is it both?

It is both and everything else. The hallmark of a sandbox campaign isn't its content or format (like a hexcrawl). It is the fact the players are the ones that set the direction of the campaign through their actions and interests.

One group may be interested in integrating themselves into the local gentry. In which case the referee is going to do a lot of prep on a web of social networks.

Another may want to wander and explore the landscape. In that case the referee will be doing a lot of mapping and detailing locales.

It is the ultimate expression of "You are a standing in front of a flight of stairs leading down to darkness". Most will immediately say "Oh but the referee expects the player to go down those stairs." And most would say the player will go down those stairs and they would be right.

But with a referee encouraging sandbox play, the player knows while he could walk down those stair, he could turn around and walk away. He could climb on top of and start digging. Or attempt anything else that he could do as his character.

It is the closest thing we have today to true virtual reality.

Quote from: Opaopajr;738933What that means is shake up your viewpoint that cities need combat challenges to be encounters. Running IN SJG, I similarly deal with city campaign design and this mental shift has been one of my biggest allies. With people constantly about, and strangeness abounding from it, creating unknown and potentially changing experiences is a given.

What's SJG?

Quote from: Opaopajr;738933So run a person that lasts longer than a passerby, like an alluring NPC, or one attracted to the PC's allure. Suddenly unexpected conversation becomes an encounter to deal with. Have a petty crime or casual kindness catch their eye. Have the sound of an argument or reckless driver rounding the corner. An unusual slice of beauty or ugliness, like new graffiti, or rogue placement of a bunch of flowers. These are things that players may pass up, but it is the details that breathe the world and the opportunity that assesses their pro-active focus.

These examples are very usuable and very WoD. I could do this. I can even use a lot of stuff that isn't really that out of the ordinary. Encounters could be a bike messenger passing by in a hurry or a salesman talking on the telephone or someone getting mugged.

Quote from: estar;738938It is both and everything else. The hallmark of a sandbox campaign isn't its content or format (like a hexcrawl). It is the fact the players are the ones that set the direction of the campaign through their actions and interests.

One group may be interested in integrating themselves into the local gentry. In which case the referee is going to do a lot of prep on a web of social networks.

Another may want to wander and explore the landscape. In that case the referee will be doing a lot of mapping and detailing locales.

It is the ultimate expression of "You are a standing in front of a flight of stairs leading down to darkness". Most will immediately say "Oh but the referee expects the player to go down those stairs." And most would say the player will go down those stairs and they would be right.

But with a referee encouraging sandbox play, the player knows while he could walk down those stair, he could turn around and walk away. He could climb on top of and start digging. Or attempt anything else that he could do as his character.

It is the closest thing we have today to true virtual reality.

Ok, so it is like the Elder Scroll only with a more dynamic world and consequences (also very WoD). I find the world in those games pretty static. Just a large collection of dungeons to me.

Btw, checking back on the Plot Point Campaign: It seems like it has some of the characteristics of a sandbox. But it also has some of the characteristics of a lineair campaign. It has a lot of unrelated quests, different locations and random encounters. I am not sure about the consequences, but they could be there. On the other hand there are some quest that together form a storyline with a beginning and an end.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;738949Ok, so it is like the Elder Scroll only with a more dynamic world and consequences (also very WoD). I find the world in those games pretty static. Just a large collection of dungeons to me.

It was the designer of Elder Scroll choice. A tabletop sandbox campaign can be about anything and everything. The difference is the flexibility of the human referee.

I have run sandboxes with the same setting where

1)Players were all members of the mages guild
2) Players were all members of the thieves guild
3) Player were city guards.
4) Players were inhabitants of a small neighborhood in a much larger fantasy city (CSIO to be exact)

And campaigns where the character were freebooting adventurers ranging the landscape.

The content is not what defines a sandbox campaign. It is the ability of the players to set the course of the campaign that defines it. But the setting is not a tabla rosa only coming to life as the PCs interact with it. It has a life of it own with inhabitants doing their thing, and natural (or unnatural) events occurring through time.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;738948What's SJG?

In Nomine by Steve Jackson Games. Derived from the In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas rpg from France. In overview they deal with roleplaying angels and demons, but in practice they run very differently. The French version is great for sardonic humor and quick random generation, off to create hijinks and have a quirky but rich attitude all its own. The American derivation notably could never get away with that level of irreverence, and ended up changing the character generation process into a more structured cohesion of archetypes, factions, and powers. I prefer the American version, IN SJG as I call it, because its "WW-esque clan mechanics" and open setting attitude works better for the games I want to run.

The French game makes a great unusual dish, as Benoist once said. The American game makes for a great Co-Op supermarket of unusual world ingredients, I'll say continuing the analogy. You just need to know something about cooking, world cuisine, kitchen discipline, and trusting your gut. Definitely not for everybody.

Quote from: estar;738953It was the designer of Elder Scroll choice. A tabletop sandbox campaign can be about anything and everything. The difference is the flexibility of the human referee.

Designer of Elder Scroll choice? You mean the programmers handed the choices to the players? In a way you can choose your own path and become a mage or a thief or a fighter in Skyrim, Oblivion and Morrowind. Only there are never people reacting to the things you did. You won't piss off the fighters guild if you did something to them. Or being chased by a group of Mages, because you stole their ancient relic. I think it's pretty static.

So in other words, no it isn't sandbox.

Quote from: estar;738953I have run sandboxes with the same setting where

1)Players were all members of the mages guild
2) Players were all members of the thieves guild
3) Player were city guards.
4) Players were inhabitants of a small neighborhood in a much larger fantasy city (CSIO to be exact)

And campaigns where the character were freebooting adventurers ranging the landscape.

The content is not what defines a sandbox campaign. It is the ability of the players to set the course of the campaign that defines it. But the setting is not a tabla rosa only coming to life as the PCs interact with it. It has a life of it own with inhabitants doing their thing, and natural (or unnatural) events occurring through time.

I get this vibe from Savage Worlds Hellfrost. Their are probably Knight Orders and Mercenary League fighting battles, while the Reliquery and the Lorekeepers are finding relics in ancient dungeon at the same time as we speak. Or Fading Suns.

Btw, I asked around on WW and yes, people do sandbox there. Mostly a bunch of NPC's and their goals and motivations clashing with the players goals and motivations.

I never looked at it like that, because most organisations in the WoD are like political parties. They don't really have a purpose, except ideology. They aren't functional organisations like a fighters guild, mage guild or thieves guild. You know what to expect if you join those. Thieves guilds steal. So burglary is logical. If you join the Charioteers in Fading Suns you know you are gonna be a trader. I can imagine what they do all day. I never really got that with the WoD. All the splats there have a vision and want that vision become reality. Usually through politics. In other words the setting never really came alive in my mind.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;739039Designer of Elder Scroll choice? You mean the programmers handed the choices to the players? In a way you can choose your own path and become a mage or a thief or a fighter in Skyrim, Oblivion and Morrowind. Only there are never people reacting to the things you did. You won't piss off the fighters guild if you did something to them. Or being chased by a group of Mages, because you stole their ancient relic. I think it's pretty static.

So in other words, no it isn't sandbox.
 

Exactly.  Player volition and the Setting's response to their choices are equally important.

Quote from: LordVreeg;739059Exactly.  Player volition and the Setting's response to their choices are equally important.

Yup.

"You can make any choice you want, but it doesn't matter" isn't agency.

I think plot is a poor pick for "the best of" literary inspiration to translate into a game.

Mike Singleton's The Lords of Midnight, a computer game originally released in 1984, wins comparisons to Tolkien's Ring trilogy -- but not for a plot line! What impresses people is:

1. the premise of an epic conflict
2. the interesting world
3. the vivid characters

There's a primary role in Prince Luxor, but his Moon Ring allows him to see through the eyes of his subordinates and direct them, so you get the scope of perspectives you get in a grand novel.

Unlike in a novel, Luxor's son Morkin is not guaranteed to steal and destroy the Ice Crown; he can easily die before reaching the tower where the Crown is kept. Neither is Luxor guaranteed to succeed in using diplomatic and military efforts to reverse the tide of invasion.

You can travel all over the map, reaping the consequences of whatever choices you make.

Heh, I asked around on the WW forum and a lot of people play sandboxes. Some books are designed to be sandboxed. The city books are political sandboxes and some of the new WoD supplements provide a playspace rather than a plot. One of the writers (actually the lead developer) sandboxes his personal game.

So ... I actually never really got that sandbox vibe out of the books, but ... I guess I am somehow pleased with it.

Edit:
I think the World in Motion aspect is really important for WoD games. So I think you can devide sandboxes as sandboxes with or without a world in motion. Skyrim is one without a world in motion for example.

Just adding one more thing:

Asking around at the Onyx Path forum I found out one of the developers uses political sandboxes. But that's only a list with NPC's and their relationships. Who likes who and who hates who and why. To me this is smaller in focus than goals and motivations.

So there are two things missing:

• The worldbuilding; the locations and corresponding plot hooks
• The NPC's aren't complete; they need motivations and goals as well

Quote from: jan paparazzi;740825Just adding one more thing:

Asking around at the Onyx Path forum I found out one of the developers uses political sandboxes. But that's only a list with NPC's and their relationships. Who likes who and who hates who and why. To me this is smaller in focus than goals and motivations.

So there are two things missing:

• The worldbuilding; the locations and corresponding plot hooks
• The NPC's aren't complete; they need motivations and goals as well

BTW, grasshopper, you are getting it.

Politics are even deeper in WiM.  look through this link, and te attached links, especially daily news...you should get the sense of velocity of time moving, woth weight and consequence....

opinions, positive and negative, are welcome, but it might be illuminating in places.

Quote from: LordVreeg;740947BTW, grasshopper, you are getting it.

Politics are even deeper in WiM.  look through this link, and te attached links, especially daily news...you should get the sense of velocity of time moving, woth weight and consequence....

opinions, positive and negative, are welcome, but it might be illuminating in places.

Grasshopper?:eek:
Ok, nice to know I am on the right track. I start reading now.
One question: Is this your own setting or is this supposed to be setting for another game?
For now I see a lot of things I also see in the city books of the WoD. Only thing I don't see in the new wod books is a timeline like this. They usually leave this open in the new games, unlike the old games who had a (too) detailed timeline.