So picture the scene if you will. you've just bought the Players Handbook for a new game that you like the look of. It has a few bits on character generation, but instead of character classes, it has characters.

No Druid. But it does have Selma the Herbalist, Davith, Moon Master and Scillia Vulture-Borne. No Fighters, but it does have Sir Reginald of Hagwich, Peregrin Whipsnap, and Hannah from Montana *.

You choose your stats, you do your background, you change the name if you want, but instead of class abilities based on level, you get character abilities unique to each character in the book based on character level.

Effectively a living Players Handbook - maybe some bright spark releases half a dozen new characters every month or so at an online outlet.

Is that something that appeals to people, or is that de-protagonising you in a story-game like way?

Have at it!


* Not really

Sounds like a lot of work for the person putting it together initially. Something like this would make a good supplement, kind of like along the lines of the Rogue's Gallery but for Player Characters with details for level advancement. Characters having names would be handy, but including a sheet with the name left blank would also be handy. Probably good for pickup games and one shots.

Quote from: One Horse Town;937675So picture the scene if you will. you've just bought the Players Handbook for a new game that you like the look of. It has a few bits on character generation, but instead of character classes, it has characters.

No Druid. But it does have Selma the Herbalist, Davith, Moon Master and Scillia Vulture-Borne. No Fighters, but it does have Sir Reginald of Hagwich, Peregrin Whipsnap, and Hannah from Montana *.

You choose your stats, you do your background, you change the name if you want, but instead of class abilities based on level, you get character abilities unique to each character in the book based on character level.

Effectively a living Players Handbook - maybe some bright spark releases half a dozen new characters every month or so at an online outlet.

Is that something that appeals to people, or is that de-protagonising you in a story-game like way?

Have at it!


* Not really

The only thing unique to [strike]Selma[/strike] the Herbalist is her level progression?  Why bother with the illusion of "characters not classes"?

Quote from: Sommerjon;937688The only thing unique to [strike]Selma[/strike] the Herbalist is her level progression?  Why bother with the illusion of "characters not classes"?

Well, for a start, it will be unique to each character, rather than a 'class' as a template, and creating a character from that template. So, if you define a singular use of a template as a class, then i guess you're right.

Quote from: Sommerjon;937688The only thing unique to [strike]Selma[/strike] the Herbalist is her level progression?  Why bother with the illusion of "characters not classes"?

Well, for a start, it will be unique to each character, rather than a 'class' as a template, and creating a character from that template. So, if you define a singular use of a template as a class, then i guess you're right.

One Horse-  are you talking just like a huge book of player character templates, but in this case named and not as generic?

Are these character templates tied strongly to the setting, so Davith the Moon Master or Scillia Vulture-Borne have a rich history, backstory, role within the setting that Druid X would not?  Are there going to be adventures constructed around these "iconics" or are they just specific examples of characters in that setting/world?

As a GM, at some point I'm probably going to want the Secret Formula to making the templates.
As a Player, it wouldn't bother me too much as long as there were enough of them.  I've never had a problem with taking a pre-gen.

Quote from: RunningLaser;937692One Horse-  are you talking just like a huge book of player character templates, but in this case named and not as generic?

I *think* he's talking about a classless system based on Characters (ie, templates and archetypes) so the PCs can hit the ground running and not go through the Chargen process.  Since every character is unique, there's less balance fetishism, 20-level builds planned out before you sit at the table, etc.  Kind of like Shadowrun with it's 12 or so archetypes, only I'm assuming much more than 12 templates, and no full-blown chargen.

Dan, I assume you will have a full-blown chargen system for the GM to make the templates?

Quote from: RunningLaser;937692One Horse-  are you talking just like a huge book of player character templates, but in this case named and not as generic?

I'm talking about a book with characters in it.

So, using Selma the Herbalist as an example - nice character picture, the skills she has, any unusual equipment she starts with, and then her character progression. We might find that at 2nd level she gains 1 free herb of 10 gp value each time she has a down-time period. At 5th level she gains the Green-Eyed Monster and Flora Flatulence spells (no-one else in the game ever gets them unless taught by Selma), etc etc

As SJ points out, superficially it can be seen as a 'class', but in reality it's a unique character.

Point is, would anyone want to play a character whose 'progression' is all laid out in-front of them?

Quote from: CRKrueger;937693Dan, I assume you will have a full-blown chargen system for the GM to make the templates?

It's just a hypothetical at the moment mate. I confess i don't know if any traditional game has ever done anything similar.

Quote from: CRKrueger;937693Are these character templates tied strongly to the setting, so Davith the Moon Master or Scillia Vulture-Borne have a rich history, backstory, role within the setting that Druid X would not?  Are there going to be adventures constructed around these "iconics" or are they just specific examples of characters in that setting/world?

In the case of the former, perhaps adding boxes with character specific adventure seeds could help? Maybe in another section for the GM. Players would have to be okay with having characters with a back history known to the GM but not necessarily the player until it is revealed. I have done this in D&D though not with pregens, where a player may find a long lost relative, or some piece of their family's history which takes them to exotic locations, with things to kill and loot.

Quote from: CRKrueger;937693As a GM, at some point I'm probably going to want the Secret Formula to making the templates.
As a Player, it wouldn't bother me too much as long as there were enough of them.  I've never had a problem with taking a pre-gen.

The Secret Formula would be a selling point. It kind of reminds me of the True20 Companion where there were rules for making custom classes. In this case it would be more specialized classes, but still mechanically classes. A gold mine for GMs.

Quote from: One Horse Town;937694Point is, would anyone want to play a character whose 'progression' is all laid out in-front of them?

Isn't that what players end up doing in 3E? Carefully plotting and planning all the feats and character levels they'll earn so they end up with something that is teh awesome? Then as you earn XP or whatever, you've already got it mapped out how your character is going to improve. It certainly seems to be the trend in, oh, the past 30 years or so. I'm sure you can definitely find people on board with the idea. It's definitely not my cup of tea, though. I have no idea what sorts of things my character will encounter, what his evolving story will be, what kind of magical boons or crippling injuries he will receive that may alter his ability sets. I have no idea what sort of group he'll end up falling in with, and exactly what role he'll take up in that group.

For example, I might create a D&D character to be a front-line fighter, but when we show up to play, someone else has an even better front-line fighter because he got a better hit points roll. But I find a comparative advantage as the party's archer. After all, this other guy is too valuable, his dice rolls too good to not be up front. We both offer the same utility as an archer, but it's less of a trade-off to have my guy do the job. So, as the campaign goes on, I invest more in better bows while the other guy invests in better armor. I make sure to jump at magic arrows, let him take the magic sword. I make sure to invest future weapon proficiencies in ranged weapons rather than melee ones. I wind up with a genuine specialist that I could not have anticipated designing during character creation. Could you imagine how frustrating it would have been to be locked into gaining weapons and skills along the way according to a progression dictated by my original build?

Quote from: One Horse Town;937699. . . I confess i don't know if any traditional game has ever done anything similar.

It sounds a little like West End Star Wars.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;937721It sounds a little like West End Star Wars.

Hmm, and of course with FASERIP, you could just take a ready-made hero from the guidebooks and start play in a minute. I miss the d'oh smilie.

Quote from: One Horse Town;937722Hmm, and of course with FASERIP, you could just take a ready-made hero from the guidebooks and start play in a minute. I miss the d'oh smilie.

This also reminds me a bit of the old Dragonlance novels, which had pregens. This was actually one of the reasons I didn't care for Dragonlance because it felt like you were just reenacting someone else's story. FASERIP pregens were pretty much suited to the game, and when we played in junior high, having those little cards made quick lunch time games super easy.

Quote from: One Horse Town;937722I miss the d'oh smilie.

Sharing the same instincts as Greg Costikyan or Jeff Grubb is not a reason to kick yourself.