I don't care.

Quote from: ImperatorI don't care.

Is that I don't care because:

1) I hates me some D&D! Blech!

2) I'm totally switching to 4th Ed. and screw the enemies of progress.

3) I'm totally sticking with 3rd Ed. but I have $1000 USD in books I haven't used yet and will never, ever need another.

4) I haven't bought a new D&D book since 1979 and I'm still trying to sell my players on dropping weapon speeds.

Paizo have been asking their customers whether they should switch to 4e or stick with 3.5 for their Pathfinder series. Other than that, i've heard nothing, so i reckon 4e will be picked up by every publisher who currently sells more than 30 copies of their books. In fact, i was on the verge of submitting 2 adventure outlines to one of the publishers on Koltar's list when the announcement came out. Bang! 3.5 gone, wait for 4e, then submit them. Many dollars on hold.

Quote from: RPGPunditWhen 4e comes out, will D20:

1. Drop like a rock into oblivion; no one will keep making product for it?

or

2. Continue to thrive and be supported by both a big fan base and a lot of publishers?

It will continue to thrive, with a customer base about the same size as 3e. They'll lose some fans, gain some new fans. It will be supported by a lot of publishers, but slightly less than 3e. Which is great news and still more than enough. And while I'm at it pulling predictions out of gut feelings, here are three more:

1-The 4e era will be more lucrative for WotC than the 3.X era despite being shorter.

2-Games that are not D&D-inspired will also be a healthier part of the industry than it was during the 3.x era. So we will have a strong leader and healthier diversity.

3-D&D 4e will last for 4 to 7 years. Not one more, not one less. After that we will skip to D&D 5. No 4.5 or any of that shit. If I have to guesstimate a more precise date, D&D 5 will be released in July 2013. Which makes a 5 year run.

Quote from: KoltarA customer and a co-worker quoted the stat that supposedly 1 out 3 Americans either are playing or have tried World of Warcraft.  

I seriously fucking doubt that. I work in software development. The average age of my co-workers is about 27, they're mostly all geeky males, and maybe - maybe - half of them have played WoW. None of the 10 or so guys I've played D&D with in the last few years have ever played a MMORPG.

So I'd be shocked if even one-third of American males aged 14-30 had played WoW, let alone a third of a total population that is half female about about half over the age of 40.

Quote from: HaffrungI seriously fucking doubt that. I work in software development. The average age of my co-workers is about 27, they're mostly all geeky males, and maybe - maybe - half of them have played WoW. None of the 10 or so guys I've played D&D with in the last few years have ever played a MMORPG.

So I'd be shocked if even one-third of American males aged 14-30 had played WoW, let alone a third of a total population that is half female about about half over the age of 40.

MOST of the WoW players that I have met in the past year are either couples or young women.  Maybe its a midwest thing.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Consonant DudeIt will continue to thrive, with a customer base about the same size as 3e. They'll lose some fans, gain some new fans. It will be supported by a lot of publishers, but slightly less than 3e. Which is great news and still more than enough. And while I'm at it pulling predictions out of gut feelings, here are three more:

1-The 4e era will be more lucrative for WotC than the 3.X era despite being shorter.

I hope you're right.

Quote2-Games that are not D&D-inspired will also be a healthier part of the industry than it was during the 3.x era. So we will have a strong leader and healthier diversity.

Again, I actually hope you're right, and I think you might be, since D&D 4e will be shooting itself in the foot by discouraing third-party publishing.
The danger in this of course is that, given that it looks like WotC has lost a lot of its way, a third-party could rise up to become the leading defining force behind the RPG movement the way WW did in the 90s, and there's no guarantee it will be benevolent.

Quote3-D&D 4e will last for 4 to 7 years. Not one more, not one less. After that we will skip to D&D 5. No 4.5 or any of that shit. If I have to guesstimate a more precise date, D&D 5 will be released in July 2013. Which makes a 5 year run.

I'm guessing less than that, actually. They will release the PHB in 2008; after that, it will be full of mistakes that will make the purchase of the PHBII all but obligatory in 2009.
In 2010 they release the PHBIII. Now with this one either they've added in a bunch of also-required stuff, in which case they will probably suffer a serious backlash at that point and lose a lot of fans, or they will make the PHBIII purely optional and watch the product's sales drop as players who already paid big bucks for PHBI and II decide to give it a pass.

End result, either way? They announce a new edition for either 2011 or 2012 at the very latest.

RPGPundit

Quote from: shindorimIs that I don't care because:
 
1) I hates me some D&D! Blech!
 
2) I'm totally switching to 4th Ed. and screw the enemies of progress.
 
3) I'm totally sticking with 3rd Ed. but I have $1000 USD in books I haven't used yet and will never, ever need another.
 
4) I haven't bought a new D&D book since 1979 and I'm still trying to sell my players on dropping weapon speeds.

Hey. The answer is: none of that
 
I've been playing D&D from 1985 to 2003, when I changed my residence to Madrid. I've played every incarnation of the game, and enjoyed them all. Maybe I played just 3.0 and not 3.5 but I'm not sure.
 
The real thing is: I don't own any ed. of D&D but the RC (in PDF). I've always ran D&D and AD&D with borrowed books, don't ask me why. These days I'm not interested in running D&D, simply because there's stuff I want to run before it, more than enough to have me busy for the rest of my life. But I don't hate the game, by no means.
 
If anybody around here started a D&D game, I would surely play. As it happens, my players are lazy bastards, so I do 99% of the running games here. And I am not running D&D.
 
So I don't hate it, I can't be bothered with worrying about 4.0, given that I did not worry about 3.0, I'm not sticking with 3.0, and I don't buy D&D books Also, I happen to think that all this discussion and wailing is fucking pointless, absurd, and can't change a shit. There is people that kept on playing previous eds of D&D when 3.0 came out, and the change to 3.5 didn't change their gaming an iota. But people in Internet like to become drama queens at the smallest chance.
 
Hope it answers your question.

I’ve stopped talking about 4E because almost every discussion ends in a fight…but what the hell.

IMHO 4E will do fine, it might do better than 3.5…it could go either way.

For me (and most people in my peer group I talk to) it is a moot point.  What we care about is that the entire focus of D&D has switched its target group to a new generation discarding those older fans who have stuck with the game though the years.

D&D has generally grown, expanded, and changed to cater to the fans of the game…with 4E, those fans have been cast aside in favor of targeting the new generation of younger people and potential fans.

Bringing in new gamers is a great idea, but I certainly think WotC could have come up with another way to do it than sticking it to the generations that has made D&D a success over the years since it’s conception.

I know my group has sworn off the 4th ed (most aren’t even going to bother picking it up for a look anymore).  It’s not some grognard fanaticism; one simply needs to read the stuff at Enworld to know it isn’t for us.  The final deal breaker for mw was this particular passage:

Quote•   Rodney Thompson -- "After having played (and worked on, a bit) D&D 4E, I really feel like a lot of things get blown out of proportion. When I play my 4E rogue, I feel like I'm playing what I call "3rd Edition ++" to steal a computer programming colloquialism. My rogue still sneaks around, leaps from the shadows, stabs a bad guy, and retreats just like in 3rd Edition. But my 4E rogue does all that, then leaps over the heads of a line of enemies, waits for an opening when an opponent attacks him and then counterattacks immediately, and twists the knife to create a huge gash in the enemy. I'm still finding traps, unlocking doors, ambushing bad guys, leaping from rooftops, and all of those things, but as I do so I'm far less distracted by the rules than I am under 3E."

snip

While the other players whittled the enemies down, I was leading them around in a chase across the battlefield, running up walls and flipping over bad guys to keep them from laying down the inevitable smack.

You know, that might sound like a lot of fun, and it could certainly be a good game…but it’s not what D&D has been.  With 4E traditional D&D finally dies it’s last breath.  Those of us who want to retain that D&D feel without changing over to this new super-cinematic computer game-esque (possibly computer required, despite what reps of WotC say) RPG will either have to stick with older editions or seak out a new system (what my group is doing).

I can't evenmake a prediction about how well 4E or D20 will do in the future...one thing I do know is that D&D willl be dead the moment 4E hits the stands.  Perhaps not the name, but the game is certainly NOT the same.

Quote from: RPGPunditOk, so, at this point there's enough time since the 4e announcement that some of you may care to make public your own guesses.  When 4e comes out, will D20:

1. Drop like a rock into oblivion; no one will keep making product for it?

or

2. Continue to thrive and be supported by both a big fan base and a lot of publishers?

RPGPundit

Hmmm...guess I missed the point of the thread with my "rant"...sorry.  I think the answer with be (sort of) #2.  Much like 3.X we will probably see a lot of publishers (a few big ones, but mostly small and new ones) try to jump on the boat, with most failing (just like with 3.X).  A few will make it to become a force in the industry (look at what D20 did for Mongoose) but most will just fade away (again, just like with 3.X).

I don't think 4E will have the same large scale effect as 3.X simply because of my argument in the last post.  4E isn't targeted at the older generation, so as a result, neither will much of the supplemental work and derived games.

I don't forsee a lot of company support for D20. (Talking in essence here; it's already been discussed that there will be no D20 license after 4e... it'll be OGL only and get the word out on your own.)

I do think people will continue to play it, buy old PDFs*, and assemble in groups online. I'll be one of them.

* - There's some fear that old products will not be able to be sold with the D20 logo on them. I hope not, but if so, them's the breaks. Some publishers will re-issue the products sans logo... an easy change in most cases, but for many, it's still probably not worth the effort.

Quote from: grubmanFor me (and most people in my peer group I talk to) it is a moot point.  What we care about is that the entire focus of D&D has switched its target group to a new generation discarding those older fans who have stuck with the game though the years.

D&D has generally grown, expanded, and changed to cater to the fans of the game…with 4E, those fans have been cast aside in favor of targeting the new generation of younger people and potential fans.

A great many people said the exact same things when 3E came out. The game was aimed at a younger, munchkin market that grew up with videogames; too much focus on tactical combat; the whole tone was too adolescent and cheesy; too much of the legacy of the game was being thrown out; it was all just meant to sell miniatures and endless supplements. And 3E was a much more dramatic change from the previous editions - both mechanically and in tone - than it seems 4E will be.

That's why I find all the pissing and moaning about 4E so hilarious. You have a new generation of gamers who are deeply wounded that they are no longer the core demographic, that they are now old fogies and the big bad corporation doesn't care about old fogies. Well, it has happened before, and it will happen again; it's called 'getting older'. Soon enough you will become alienated from popular books, movies, tv shows, and videogames. Get used to it.

Quote from: HaffrungYou have a new generation of gamers who are deeply wounded that they are no longer the core demographic, that they are now old fogies and the big bad corporation doesn't care about old fogies. Well, it has happened before, and it will happen again; it's called 'getting older'. Soon enough you will become alienated from popular books, movies, tv shows, and videogames. Get used to it.

I'd like to go on record for myself: I get it.  I'm not deeply wounded, it was simply a realization and acceptance. I'm not the target anymore.  I could cry and gnash my teeth, or I can accept it and find out how to keep the stuff I like going without the support of the company determining the target.

I chose the latter.  Which is why, even though it's slow right now, I made d20 Haven. I think in time it will pick up as people like me search out a place to form a community around what we like.

But I reserve the right to, on occasion, bitch when people claim it's not changing that much or isn't influenced by things different from the past (and, in some cases, more foreign to the likes of an aging bastard like me).

Quote from: HaffrungThat's why I find all the pissing and moaning about 4E so hilarious. You have a new generation of gamers who are deeply wounded that they are no longer the core demographic, that they are now old fogies and the big bad corporation doesn't care about old fogies. Well, it has happened before, and it will happen again; it's called 'getting older'. Soon enough you will become alienated from popular books, movies, tv shows, and videogames. Get used to it.

Oh, thank you for endowing us with your wisdom. Y'know because every person out there who has no plans to move on has been bitching about it. No chance at all that on the internet, of all places, the shrill voices represent everyone.

Similarly none of us still has a perfectly serviceable PS2 and N64 hooked up to their set. None of us have happily stopped watching ST:Voyager and still catch ST:TOS reruns. None of us stopped buying new Warhammer armies 10 years ago when they saw the treadmill coming.

Thanks for that! :rolleyes:

Quote from: James J SkachBut I reserve the right to, on occasion, bitch when people claim it's not changing that much or isn't influenced by things different from the past (and, in some cases, more foreign to the likes of an aging bastard like me).

It's a matter of opinion, I guess. I've been playing D&D for over a quarter of a century and it still looks like D&D to me and I don't think it's changing that much (from 3e). I reserve the right to change opinion when it comes out and I play a few games, of course.