Quote from: CRKrueger;964287If the Goodberry Life bonus is kicking your ass, just put on the Viking Hat, remind people this isn't 4th Edition or Warhammer 40k, you're not going to let interaction of metadata tags destroy your game and GM the problem.

Funny thing is 4e explicitly says that you can (and should) do this if it's disrupting your game. Best example is when people try to use spells or powers with the Fire keyword underwater or when the power says you fling sand in someone's eyes and there's no sand around. Which led to my rogue player carrying around a pouch full of sand and debris to use the power AND it was sort of cool as he looked for interesting stuff to put in the bag.  

Quote from: CRKrueger;9642871. The bonus obviously was never meant to add +3 to Goodberry.  It creates an item and is not a "healing spell".

It's weird because 1. the life cleric doesn't gain access to Goodberry nor is it on it's spell list. You have to multiclass to get the spell. 2. You get a whopping 3 hit points back for using your Action to eat the Goodberry, and you can only eat 1 at a time. I dunno but I'm not seeing why it's so broken? 3 HP for your Action in which you could, instead, be dealing double or triple the amount of damage to the enemy? Maybe in low levels, during short rests, it becomes better (with 30 HP of healing available) but still have to Multiclass to do it and it eats up resources that could be better used for other things.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;964283Or simply say, "seriously guys, that +3 to amount healed was undoubtedly intended for a rolled total. I don't care if the designers have turned around and given it the okay. The answer is no."  It's an exploit born of how two separate abilities were worded. Just say no, and don't bother with banning races, feats, or multiclassing to get rid of it.

I agree with your point, however, I think the larger answer is to simply say, "The spirit of the game at launch was that everything is simple enough that the GM can adjudicate.  We don't need to wait on feedback from an authority to decide and get on with it.  Even if we locally get something wrong from time to time, it's still a better use of our time than going around and around with the letter of the rules.  And if you can't handle a game like that, there's the door."

Granted, I'm blessed with a group that has never pulled that kind of nonsense, because it's a waste of their time, never mind mine.  I honestly don't see how people stand to run "official" events where that kind of thing matters.

Quote from: Batman;964291It's weird because 1. the life cleric doesn't gain access to Goodberry nor is it on it's spell list. You have to multiclass to get the spell. 2. You get a whopping 3 hit points back for using your Action to eat the Goodberry, and you can only eat 1 at a time. I dunno but I'm not seeing why it's so broken? 3 HP for your Action in which you could, instead, be dealing double or triple the amount of damage to the enemy? Maybe in low levels, during short rests, it becomes better (with 30 HP of healing available) but still have to Multiclass to do it and it eats up resources that could be better used for other things.

Honestly, it's not. It's just an exciting rules exploit that people have found that has to be pored over endlessly. A variant human life cleric with the feat Magic Initiate (goodberry, plus two druid cantrips) gets and extra 40 hp of healing (with 10 actions to consume the berries). At 1st level it is a real boon. After that, not so much. But it exists. The designers seem to have given their ok (I'm not in the know or anything, but I suspect it is probably 50/50 split on their part between "Huh, yeah. I guess it does say that." and "It's not really overpowered, so sure, why not?"). Thus it must be brought up repeatedly.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;964292I agree with your point, however, I think the larger answer is to simply say, "The spirit of the game at launch was that everything is simple enough that the GM can adjudicate.  We don't need to wait on feedback from an authority to decide and get on with it.  Even if we locally get something wrong from time to time, it's still a better use of our time than going around and around with the letter of the rules.  And if you can't handle a game like that, there's the door."

That would be a generalization of my specific point, yes. Thanks.

QuoteGranted, I'm blessed with a group that has never pulled that kind of nonsense, because it's a waste of their time, never mind mine.  I honestly don't see how people stand to run "official" events where that kind of thing matters.

I never have seen much of this kind of stuff either--with my home groups, at official events, or anywhere else. Even with 3e, with its notorious number of abuses, exploits, etc., the worst I've seen someone try to pull was a cleric with like 20 wand of CLW so they'd never have to waste a spell on healing. Almost like the people who actually want to play an edition (as opposed to all the other options out there) might actually want to make the edition work, and it's the people out on the internet trying to prove some point that really care about whether there are any holes in a given ruleset.

Everything on the internet is broken.  But we all manage to play just fine.

Quote from: Batman;964291It's weird because 1. the life cleric doesn't gain access to Goodberry nor is it on it's spell list. You have to multiclass to get the spell. 2. You get a whopping 3 hit points back for using your Action to eat the Goodberry, and you can only eat 1 at a time. I dunno but I'm not seeing why it's so broken? 3 HP for your Action in which you could, instead, be dealing double or triple the amount of damage to the enemy? Maybe in low levels, during short rests, it becomes better (with 30 HP of healing available) but still have to Multiclass to do it and it eats up resources that could be better used for other things.

Goodberry's prime use is healing between combat. Since they stick around for 24 hours, any half-intelligent druid will burn any remaining spell slots at the end of the day to create goodberries. In the last campaign I was a player in, the druid regularly had 100+ hp worth of goodberries in her pack. If that had been a minmaxed life cleric, it would have been 400+ hp.

Quote from: Headless;964273Which brings up another thing.  Why not have your wizard take a short bow? Its more damage, or could be.  They have the same to-hit as a fighter.  And it doesn't turn your casters into spaming pew-pewers.  

I really hate the at will pew-pews.  

Actually I may house rule that if you cast a damage cantrip you have to say pew-pew.

In 5e? Most wizards won't have DEX as high as INT. Although with 14 DEX, an elven wizard is arguably better off with a longbow than with a cantrip until level 5.

Quote from: Willie the Duck[/quoteOkay, so magic users have always been second tier, but thoroughly acceptable ranged combatants, and the 5e cantrips aren't really that awesome anyways? Do I have that right? So what the heck is the actual problem here? Some people think a wizard throwing fire bolts is more iconic to the game, some think them using darts or a short bow is more iconic to the game, and in this edition, the wizard can do either, with little change in effectiveness. I really do not see a problem at all.

Yeah, that seems about right. The iconic sling-wielding wizard went away 17 years ago, and some folks want it back.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;964335Goodberry's prime use is healing between combat. Since they stick around for 24 hours, any half-intelligent druid will burn any remaining spell slots at the end of the day to create goodberries. In the last campaign I was a player in, the druid regularly had 100+ hp worth of goodberries in her pack. If that had been a minmaxed life cleric, it would have been 400+ hp.

Eh.....I'm fairly confident that the majority of DM's out there would rule that there's an expiration on the retention of healing these berries have. Or just rule that you can only have 1 active spell of Goodberries per character at a time. Still makes the spell good, even better with a life cleric, but not ridiculous.

Quote from: Batman;964356Eh.....I'm fairly confident that the majority of DM's out there would rule that there's an expiration on the retention of healing these berries have. Or just rule that you can only have 1 active spell of Goodberries per character at a time. Still makes the spell good, even better with a life cleric, but not ridiculous.

They give the berries a 24-hour duration and don't have them scale with slot on purpose. They're not OP, as carrying 100 hp of healing means burning 10 slots on Goodberry (e.g. all four L1 slots, 3 L2s, and 3 L3s). This is actually significantly less healing than Cure Wounds alone does with those same slots, nevermind if you're a Life Cleric or use Beacon of Hope.

So a druid can start off an adventure with a huge glob of healing in her pack, but the benefit of Goodberry falls off pretty sharply as adventuring days wear on.

Quote from: Headless;964273Which brings up another thing.  Why not have your wizard take a short bow? Its more damage, or could be.  They have the same to-hit as a fighter.  And it doesn't turn your casters into spaming pew-pewers.  

I really hate the at will pew-pews.

1: Its not a bad idea to have a backup ranged weapon on hand for those occasions casting isnt an option.

Like a magic dead zone. Which is alot more common in 5e. Or so as not to trip off some sort of trap triggered by just casting in the area. Or so as not to alert any magic sensitive monsters in the area. Or even just so no one is tipped off it was you who offed the guard. and so on.

5e wizards have access to only the dagger, sling and light crossbow. But the crossbow does a d8. Quick check on wizard cantrips. Note that most, or all of them level up eventually to 4 dice.
acid splash:save, 1d6 - r60
chill touch:to hit, 1d8 - r120
fire bolt:to hit, 1d10 - r120
poison spray:save, 1d12 - r10
shocking grasp:to hit, 1d8 - rTouch

2: Easiest solution is to dock all the combat cantrips down a dice step. Especially since some of them have added effects like shocking grasp or fire bolt.

Quote from: S'mon;964277In my Mentzer BECM game MUs can use hunting bows - ranged attack for d4 damage.

Damn! My poor BX MU didnt even get that! We just had a dagger, that we couldn't throw! Tossed flasks of oil instead. :cool:

Quote from: Omega;964413Damn! My poor BX MU didnt even get that! We just had a dagger, that we couldn't throw! Tossed flasks of oil instead. :cool:

Yeah, BECM did for most of its run as well (I don't remember which set had the hunting bows). I never did understand why wizards throwing Molotov cocktails was more iconic or whatever than a wizard with a crossbow or shortbow.

I remember playing 3.0 for the first time and getting cantrips and THREE 1st level spells because I specialized in a school......yea that was awesome until about the 3rd combat encounter when I was basically just doing the same ol' shit of shooting a crossbow or throwing darts that I was overly terrible at and not feeling very "Wizardly".  Of course YMMV on what constitutes feeling "Magical". For some it's those few spells that really impact a battle or solve a puzzle, For others it's having a plethora (albeit with less impact) of magical power at their fingertips. I don't think there's a right or wrong way to go about it, it's about tastes really.

Quote from: Batman;964482......I don't think there's a right or wrong way to go about it, it's about tastes really.

No you are wrong.  What I like is right and good and just!  Magical pew pews are stupid.

Quote from: Headless;964495No you are wrong.  What I like is right and good and just!  Magical pew pews are stupid.

Um...I'm BATMAN! I'm never wrong!



...well ok maybe about Jason Todd...

Quote from: Omega;964413Damn! My poor BX MU didnt even get that! We just had a dagger, that we couldn't throw! Tossed flasks of oil instead. :cool:

I've never played a game of D&D where we didn't just ignore those bizarre restrictions of who can use what kind of weapon. It made zero impact on the games.