[edited as I have been posting this quite widely and left in a reference to The Other Place!]

This might be a slightly odd thing to post here. Hope the powers that be will permit this to stay here, as I'd really like to have a discussion and (potentially) hear from people who might be interested in taking part in what could be an important oral history project.

A tiny number of you might vaguely remember my name from games such as a|state, Cold City, and Hot War. I drifted away from RPGs for many years, but fate has intervened and life has come full circle. I'm now an academic historian (no, really! I have bona fides: https://www.ljmu.ac.uk/about-us/staff-profiles/faculty-of-arts-professional-and-social-studies/humanities-and-social-science/malcolm-craig !) and my current project examines post-apocalyptic RPGs and their intersections with the Cold War. In particular, I'm interested in how players received and interpreted these games in light of the prevailing global conditions in the 1970s and 1980s.

Of course, a big chunk of this involves studying the games themselves, their text, and their art. I'm currently working on an article for the Journal of American Studies analysing the first edition Twilight: 2000 game and its supplements. However, you can't study this kind of thing without studying play. And this is where you  come in.

In 2024 I'm planning to conduct oral history research with those who played post-apocalyptic games in the 1970s and 1980s. In particular I'm thinking about Gamma World, Aftermath!, The Morrow Project, Twilight: 2000, Paranoia, and other RPGs released up to 1989. I'm looking for participants to recall their play experiences, let me know how and why they played these games, and a whole bunch of other stuff that I won't go into at the moment. this would form the basis of an oral history of "wars that never were".

So if you were around in the 1970s/1980s and played any of the games I've mentioned (and of course there are others) during that period, then please let me know if you're interested either by DM, here in this thread, or be contacting me at my institutional email address (that you can find on the web page noted above). In this thread I'd also be delighted to discuss the project more widely.

Malcolm

I was a gamer during those times.  I'm a bit on the younger side for this so many of these memories are filtered through the eyes of a child at the time.  It's also worth noting that I grew up as an Army brat and all of this was with other kids that were also dependents.  All of our dads did roughly the same job we were a bit closer to the geopolitical stuff that was shaping post apocalyptic fiction than others.  Several of the places we lived in had fallout shelters and things in the news affected our family as the military would go on alert for things.

As an over all attitude towards nuclear Armageddon, all of us knew it was a possibility but there wasn't anything we could do about it.  I remember my parents talking about it on more than one occasion and even they were kind of resigned to just living the best they could because they couldn't do anything about it.  You live on the edge of a cliff long enough, you just get used to it.

To me, post apocalyptic gaming and fiction was simply a sub genre of scifi and speculative fiction.  I was fascinated by it but fully recognized the horror of living in that type of world.  Even today, it's one of my favorite genres next to cyberpunk. 

I played Gamma World briefly but I don't remember much.  When I looked at it more recently I recognize some of the art but none of the adventures or even the PC features.  There's always a chance that the guy that was the GM homebrewed it to the point of being unrecognizable.  I was probably 7 at the time.  I vaguely remember trying to survive mutant attacks and find food.  For me, it was more about being at the edgy table with the older players.   

For me, Twilight 2000 was the game that never was.  There was a group of us that played D&D and we had a box set and a few other books for T2K that we'd look over, talk about, and planned for a game that never happened.  I read through everything multiple times and was absolutely in love with it.  I thought about running it but I was 10 at the time and didn't feel I had it to be a GM; I was the youngest.  What I do remember is that this was the first time that an RPG gave me the idea that play could be more than just killing monsters and finding loot. 

Paranoia was a game that was filler for my regular group when I was in High school.  This was in 1989, so barely in your target.  By this time, all of us had grown up under the specter of nuclear war and tensions between east and west to the point that we were a little numb to it all.  Paranoia was so pointed at the absurdity of so much as we saw it that we could laugh.  We never took it seriously and every game broke down after a session because it just devolved into backstabbing and laughter. 

Also in high school (sorry, don't remember the year, could be 90 or 91) one of the guys brought in some Palladium books; Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, After the Bomb, and Rifts.  We mixed them all together and played these as a post apocalyptic game as well.

It's well worth noting, this came in packaged with other media.  I remember watching Planet of the Apes with Charlton Heston several times.  There was also On the Beach, a movie about a US submarine crew that had made it to Australia during a nuclear war between the US and Russia.  Post nuclear war themes were found in comics and tv shows too, even Saturday morning cartoons.  The video game Wasteland came out when I was an early teen.  (Remember to always repair your toasters.)

In the late 40s and early 50s, a lot of stories were written and published.  My favorite and one of the best post apocalyptic books ever, was The Earth Abides.  I remember reading a lot of stories in old paperback books and magazines when I'd hang out and used book stores.  Even early in the 80s before I was 10 I was interested in this stuff.  I got an educational book for kids about nuclear energy and weapons that had information in it that you would probably be seen as a security threat over today. 

Edit:  Damn, I forgot to mention Mad Max.  While we never played and RPG specifically about the movie, it did shape games we played.     

Thanks for sharing your recollections - that's some fascinating stuff. Would you be willing - at some point in 2024 - to talk about this more formally as part of an oral history interview?

You're quite right about all the other 'nuclear culture'. That stuff has been amply served by the current literature, but RPGs are vastly under-appreciated. That's why I think this has the potential to be a really interesting and informative project. The ways in which RPGs involve direct participation makes them doubly valuable.

Malcolm

I would be happy to.  I cannot promise anything beyond email at this point due to me being a merchant seaman.  If you coordinate with me, we can work around my schedule.

That's absolutely fine. I'm not planning on conducting the interviews until the first half of 2024, and can happily send it out as a written questionaire if that is more convenient.

Malcolm

My friends and I played quite a bit of Gamma World (GW).  I never played the other games you mentioned. 

One friend of mine took a particular GW adventure to its ultimate conclusion and made it into a Space Opera style of game where the party travelled among the (ruined) stars and used our hi-tech artifacts to make a name for ourselves.

When I would GM, I would take inspiration from Epic Illustrated (comic), Heavy Metal (comic), various films including: Rock-n-Rule, Wizards, Damnation Alley, The Day After, and Mad Max films.  From '82-'85 I played and GM'ed for GW in two different groups, then we moved on to other games.

My last brush with Post Apocalypse gaming was the Cyberpunk setting Hard Wired around 1987. And the Mega-Traveller supplement: Hard Times detaining life after a devastating interstellar war and the decline of technology and the slide into a space-faring dark age.  I never got to play with any of those supplements but I read them over and over for inspiration that bled into other games.

My friends and I mainly played The Morrow Project, with a little bit of Twilight 2000.  I owned Aftermath but never got to play it.  None of us really thought much about
about the real-world situation when we played them.  It's exactly as BadApple said:

Quote from: BadApple on December 02, 2023, 07:44:42 AM

As an over all attitude towards nuclear Armageddon, all of us knew it was a possibility but there wasn't anything we could do about it.  I remember my parents talking about it on more than one occasion and even they were kind of resigned to just living the best they could because they couldn't do anything about it.  You live on the edge of a cliff long enough, you just get used to it.

To me, post apocalyptic gaming and fiction was simply a sub genre of scifi and speculative fiction.  I was fascinated by it but fully recognized the horror of living in that type of world.  Even today, it's one of my favorite genres next to cyberpunk. 

I agree with all of that.  They were just science fiction/alternate future games to us, much as Star Trek was.  We'd sometimes discuss how realistic or unrealistic certain parts of the Twilight 2000 alternate history were, and we appreciated the irony of the United States (accidentally) starting World War III in the Morrow Project, but we weren't brooding about the Cold War or trying to "work through our fears through roleplaying" or anything like that.

Quote from: I on December 03, 2023, 01:19:15 AM
My friends and I mainly played The Morrow Project, with a little bit of Twilight 2000.  I owned Aftermath but never got to play it.  None of us really thought much about
about the real-world situation when we played them.  It's exactly as BadApple said:

Quote from: BadApple on December 02, 2023, 07:44:42 AM

As an over all attitude towards nuclear Armageddon, all of us knew it was a possibility but there wasn't anything we could do about it.  I remember my parents talking about it on more than one occasion and even they were kind of resigned to just living the best they could because they couldn't do anything about it.  You live on the edge of a cliff long enough, you just get used to it.

To me, post apocalyptic gaming and fiction was simply a sub genre of scifi and speculative fiction.  I was fascinated by it but fully recognized the horror of living in that type of world.  Even today, it's one of my favorite genres next to cyberpunk. 

I agree with all of that.  They were just science fiction/alternate future games to us, much as Star Trek was.  We'd sometimes discuss how realistic or unrealistic certain parts of the Twilight 2000 alternate history were, and we appreciated the irony of the United States (accidentally) starting World War III in the Morrow Project, but we weren't brooding about the Cold War or trying to "work through our fears through roleplaying" or anything like that.

That kind of reminiscence is just as valuable as someone saying the prevailing situation did influence their choices. I'm not embarking on this with a preconceived notion of "Everyone played these games to cope with the nuclear threat!", because until the oral history component is done, I simply don't know! It's going to be fascinating to see what comes out of this.

Malcolm

I played the hell out of Paranoia when I got it in the 80s; I never really thought about the connection to the Cold War since I was a kid at the time, but I guess it makes sense now that I REALLY hate commies. The Computer is never wrong.

That said, I'm also a researcher, albeit in CS, but I'd be happy to provide my prospective if it'll help out your research.

EDIT: The Morrow Project...I was fascinated with this game even though I never got a chance to play it. Mostly because I couldn't afford it at the time, but read through it countless times in the hobby shop whenever I had a chance. Every time I watched Damnation Alley (500 times at least) that's what I envisioned the game being like. All those thought experiments are probably way better than the actual game considering I saw a copy recently and couldn't figure out why I wanted to play it so bad. The mind of a 12 year old boy filled with Snake Plissken and V8 interceptors rarely makes much sense.

EDIT 2: used "time" too many times to be comfortable with that edit but too late now

Quote from: Brad on December 03, 2023, 10:58:46 PM
I played the hell out of Paranoia when I got it in the 80s; I never really thought about the connection to the Cold War since I was a kid at the time, but I guess it makes sense now that I REALLY hate commies. The Computer is never wrong.

That said, I'm also a researcher, albeit in CS, but I'd be happy to provide my prospective if it'll help out your research.

EDIT: The Morrow Project...I was fascinated with this game even though I never got a chance to play it. Mostly because I couldn't afford it at the time, but read through it countless times in the hobby shop whenever I had a chance. Every time I watched Damnation Alley (500 times at least) that's what I envisioned the game being like. All those thought experiments are probably way better than the actual game considering I saw a copy recently and couldn't figure out why I wanted to play it so bad. The mind of a 12 year old boy filled with Snake Plissken and V8 interceptors rarely makes much sense.

EDIT 2: used "time" too many times to be comfortable with that edit but too late now

If you'd like to record an interview, then iId be happy to hear your thoughts on this. If you could DM me with your name, year of birth, country of birth, the country in which you spent most time during the period under study, and an email contact, that would be super helpful.

And seconded on a twelve year old mind filled with V8 interceptors!

Malcolm

I played some Paranoia during that time.  We were teens, and I don't think any of us really connected the game with anything in reality.  It's a slapstick game, and communism in the game really only shares the name with either the theoretical communism of Marx or communism as actually practiced by China and the Soviet Union.  If anything, the game serves as a warning against McCarthyism.

I passed along your post to a couple of gamers I know who are fans of some of those games in particular (and one has studied and/or taught at the War College, I think).

I didn't play many of these games—like Red Dawn they (and similar others like Nuclear War) never caught my eye, other than Paranoia. I saw them a lot at game conventions BITD, and played Paranoia (the more-humorous and less-dystopian 2nd edition, as I understand it) some at cons and in college.

Allan.

I'm one of the people Grodog pinged on this. I ran some Gamma World in the early-mid 80s. I also spent a large portion of my professional career (US Navy submariner and a civilian with the Army) working on a very wide variety nuclear weapons related jobs. I'd love to contribute to your research! I'll follow this up with a DM.

I realize that your research is about RPGS, but you may want to at least mention SPI's boardgame/wargame "After the Holocaust"   (1977).  It was a more serious take on the subject than most. 

Its funny how some games make that association with the Cold War and others don't.

As an example, I don't associated Paranoia with the Cold War for some reason (recognise its a long time since I read the 1st ed rulebooks, so any possible reference there has been forgotten). I always thought of it as a dystopian future. But the Nuclear War card game resonated with me and reminded me of the futility of nuclear war. I always loved it when final strikes finished off every player in a game - because that's how I saw actual nuclear war playing out - nobody wins!