I'm wondering about PbtA games, as far as the problem being too many complications as a result of the dice system.

Why not delay the complications?

What if any encounter that could also reasonably become a combat, has a sort of Tension Score, like hit points, and every time you snare a social complication, the Tension Score goes up. If that score hits it's maximum, now its time to fight, and it's not over until someone's run, captured or dead.

That is kind of how the threat clocks mechanic is supposed to work.  For example, you might have a clock with 6 segments on it for a group of PCs infiltrating a compound of some sort (warlord base/megacorp/whatever). 

On a 10+ nothing happens. On a 7-9 you fill in a segment On a <6 you fill in two segments.

Each segment might have an effect on the situation.  Maybe segment 1 and 2 don't do anything.  They are a buffer of a sort.  Segment 3 might mean the guards saw something funny and are a little more keyed up.  Segment 4  means they know there is an issue somewhere but don't know what it is.  They are now harder to sneak around.  When segment 5 gets ticked the guards know there is a problem and maybe call in reserves or activate security measures.  Once segment 6 is ticked then it's shoot first and ask questions later.

Yep, that's what countdown clocks are for. You can fill segments as a consequence of failures or complications, and when it fills up something bad happens.

Also, Blades in the Dark introduced the Devil's Bargain - you succeed now but take a (harsh) complication later.

PbtA is flawed from the start, the only way to "fix" the complications problem is to remove them entirely.

7+ on 2d6 --> the move works but something else happens is a fancy way of saying "there's always complications, even on trivial activities".

Quote from: Vestragor on February 11, 2023, 04:30:55 AM
PbtA is flawed from the start, the only way to "fix" the complications problem is to remove them entirely.

7+ on 2d6 --> the move works but something else happens is a fancy way of saying "there's always complications, even on trivial activities".

I'm not much of a PbtA player, but this seems wrong, can you explain what you mean?

1. you don't roll for trivial activities
2. you don't have complications on 10+, only on 7-9
3. if you have any bonus on the roll, your chance of succeeding without complications is > 1/6

Quote from: Naburimannu on February 11, 2023, 06:10:27 AM
I'm not much of a PbtA player, but this seems wrong, can you explain what you mean?

Basic math.
7+ on 2d6, with no modifiers, means 58.3%; 10+, 16.6%. This means, roughly, that an unskilled, incompetent character will succeed in whatever he's trying to do 6 times out of ten. Roughly four times out of ten, he'll succeed with something else happening, and one time out of six nothing else but success will happen.
This quickly escalates once bonuses are taken into account, to the point that even a simple +2 essentially means "don't bother rolling for success, simply roll to see what else happens".
And this brings us to the real heart of the matter....

Quote from: Naburimannu on February 11, 2023, 06:10:27 AM
1. you don't roll for trivial activities

Nope. Every activity in a PbtA game is trivial, by design. The system is built from the grounds up as to make failure impossible: rolling is only meant to artificially trigger consequences. It's a masterpiece of bad modelling and even worse basic assumption.

Don't feed the troll, gentlemen.

... No, not trolling, I completely forgot about the threat clock, that's AW only and not DW.

Quote from: Vestragor on February 11, 2023, 06:47:19 AM

Quote from: Naburimannu on February 11, 2023, 06:10:27 AM
1. you don't roll for trivial activities

Nope. Every activity in a PbtA game is trivial, by design. The system is built from the grounds up as to make failure impossible: rolling is only meant to artificially trigger consequences. It's a masterpiece of bad modelling and even worse basic assumption.

That is... truly evil design.

Quote from: ClusterFluster on February 11, 2023, 11:19:14 AM
... No, not trolling, I completely forgot about the threat clock, that's AW only and not DW.

Oh no, I'm not referring to you.Your reasoning is sound. I'm talking about the guy who said PbtA is "flawed from the start".

About Dungeon World, I could swear it presents clocks too. But then I've played it after AW so I may have brought some baggage.

Quote from: Itachi on February 11, 2023, 11:36:06 AM
I'm talking about the guy who said PbtA is "flawed from the start".

Since when facts are trolling, dude ? Numbers don't lie, the game is designed from the ground up so that consequences will always be the predominant result of every roll.
Shit design at its finest.

Quote from: Itachi on February 11, 2023, 11:36:06 AM

Quote from: ClusterFluster on February 11, 2023, 11:19:14 AM
... No, not trolling, I completely forgot about the threat clock, that's AW only and not DW.

Oh no, I'm not referring to you.Your reasoning is sound. I'm talking about the guy who said PbtA is "flawed from the start".

About Dungeon World, I could swear it presents clocks too. But then I've played it after AW so I may have brought some baggage.

Fair enough, sorry I've been getting the gauntlet.

Reviewing the basic moves, it's clear none of them are "trivial" in the sense of being mundane, but I think that he has a point about the successes becoming "trivial" in that they are virtually guaranteed. It's basically a Marty Stu/Mary Sue game mechanic with that consideration, with the possibility of complications giving the illusion of danger and risk. I never plugged that into a calculator using AnyDice stats until now, it's an incredible irony that you can have a +3 bonus to your rolls that would push you into range for reliable full successes, made for any of your efforts made in a bleak, apocalyptic setting where survival is never guaranteed. Complications could get less frequent as you level up, but then the entire dread of the setting is dispelled. That adventuring only makes sense if every party finds an "Eden" at the end of every campaign.

The clock is not in Dungeon World at all, I remember being intrigued by the concept when I skimmed over AW. The threat clock had been replaced in favour of a list of setting moves that I tried to organize into categories once, which is kind of how you move the action with factions out of frame.


At this point, I should grant that I have been away from roleplaying games for something like 3-5 years. I missed a lot.

Yep, PbtA is not intended for campaign play*, but for one-shots or short campaigns of a dozen or so sessions. If the PCs are reaching +3 in more than one stat it's probably time to pack it and go for the next game. The appeal of the engine is not in the math anyway, but in how the moves prompt interesting and colorful choices and situations.


*There are exceptions (like Legacy), but these usually do generational play where players rotate characters.

That really puts it all together then!

The World of Dungeons print out is way more appealing to that end, using the DW book as a sort of advanced guide if you wanted to.
It all depends as to what people get introduced to first, I suppose.

QuoteSince when facts are trolling, dude ? Numbers don't lie, the game is designed from the ground up so that consequences will always be the predominant result of every roll.
Shit design at its finest.

Yes. But actually no.
Because a) complications being dominant result is FEATURE not a BUG. This is game where rolls have first and foremost dramatic not simulating meaning.
It's not meant to lead to powergaming - it's meant to lead to SPIRAL of more and more consequences generating more and more plot twists.

QuoteNope. Every activity in a PbtA game is trivial, by design. The system is built from the grounds up as to make failure impossible: rolling is only meant to artificially trigger consequences. It's a masterpiece of bad modelling and even worse basic assumption.

I played BITD that shared generally same design - and failure in action was very much possibility.
I mean it's not that rare to roll under 7 with 2d6, or to roll under 4 on 1d6 roll.