Quote from: Itachi on February 14, 2023, 11:41:41 AM
Except it was? PbtA and it's progeny (Blades in the Dark included) in fact solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading, as anyone who actually played these games can attest.

Have you ever played one of these games?

Press X to doubt

Imagine actually believing this propaganda...

Quote from: Brad on February 14, 2023, 11:44:07 AM

Quote from: Itachi on February 14, 2023, 11:41:41 AM
Except it was? PbtA and it's progeny (Blades in the Dark included) in fact solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading, as anyone who actually played these games can attest.

Have you ever played one of these games?

Press X to doubt

Imagine actually believing this propaganda...

Have you ever read or played any of the games being talked about here, like, Blades in the Dark or some PbtA like Monsterhearts?

Quote from: Itachi on February 14, 2023, 11:57:54 AM
Have you ever read or played any of the games being talked about here, like, Blades in the Dark or some PbtA like Monsterhearts?

"solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading"
"solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading"
"solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading"
"solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading"
"solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading"
"solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading"
"solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading"

Dude, no fucking game mechanics in the known universe can stop a bad GM. The problem is solved by finding someone else to run the game.

So, you don't even know the games in question and is taking conclusions about them.

Do you realize that's the definition of ignorance? Or in plain english, 'talking out of your ass'?

Why is multiclassing a "move"?

Quote from: Brad on February 14, 2023, 12:10:24 PM

Quote from: Itachi on February 14, 2023, 11:57:54 AM
Have you ever read or played any of the games being talked about here, like, Blades in the Dark or some PbtA like Monsterhearts?

"solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading"
"solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading"
"solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading"
"solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading"
"solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading"
"solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading"
"solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading"

Dude, no fucking game mechanics in the known universe can stop a bad GM. The problem is solved by finding someone else to run the game.

So is that a "no" then?

No game anywhere will stop a GM who will knowingly or maliciously do shitty things.  What the PbtA games do accomplish is stopping GMs (especially those new to GMing) casually or accidentally falling into those bad behaviors.

Quote from: rgalex on February 14, 2023, 12:18:25 PMSo is that a "no" then?

No game anywhere will stop a GM who will knowingly or maliciously do shitty things.  What the PbtA games do accomplish is stopping GMs (especially those new to GMing) casually or accidentally falling into those bad behaviors.

Fair assessment.

I would complement by saying that PbtA rules will still impose difficulties on a GM maliciously trying to railroad players into pre-written plots.

Quote from: ClusterFluster on February 14, 2023, 12:16:40 PM
Why is multiclassing a "move"?

I'm guessing you are talking about Dungeon World.  It isn't a move.  Multiclass Moves are a description of an ability you get from another class when you multiclass.  If you are a wizard and you learn a fighter move, that fighter move is a multiclass move.  Being a multiclass move you are considered 1 level lower when using it.

Which is why it is classified as a move under the leveling up moves section.

Quote from: rgalex on February 14, 2023, 12:18:25 PM
So is that a "no" then?

No game anywhere will stop a GM who will knowingly or maliciously do shitty things.  What the PbtA games do accomplish is stopping GMs (especially those new to GMing) casually or accidentally falling into those bad behaviors.

Because we've always had driverless cars.

Another PbtA that's easy to grok is Monster of the Week.

(Just saying because you seem genuinelly curious about the engine, and I find Dungeon World's text somewhat bloated and confusing in parts)

I always thought Monster of the Week was more of a supplement than a system?

Edit:
In all fairness, PbtA has now given me the kind of taste in my mouth of peanut butter with chocolate, and they lean harder away from RPGs than presented. I'll need to really drill down on them on my own time before I know more beyond an overview.

I'm unimpressed with PbtA because it looks to my (admittedly inexperienced eye) like a shotgun marriage between the Lone Wolf RPG book series and the Amber diceless system.

Plus, the probability curve strikes me as weird. On a 2d6, seven is the most common result, which means unless your dice luck is dogshit bad you're probably going to succeed most of the time with a decent bonus.

Quote from: Itachi on February 14, 2023, 11:41:41 AM

Quote from: tenbones on February 14, 2023, 10:46:44 AMThat you have a shit GM, or shit players is not going to be ameliorated by any rules or mechanics.

Except it was? PbtA and it's progeny (Blades in the Dark included) in fact solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading, as anyone who actually played these games can attest.

Have you ever played one of these games?

I do own Blades in the Dark. Never ran it for very specific reasons. It's too far removed from the actual game. Since I GM most of the time, anyone that has a problem with "GM fiat" *and* wants to play using mechanics like Blades in the Dark (and PbtA by extension) is telling me they don't want to play the kinds of games I run. Inversely - I am not a player of such games because I actually want to do things Blades in the Dark uses it's mechanics to gloss over. I want to plan and execute my daring heists and dastardly shit by actually playing it out.

Metamechanics have their time and place - but an entire game made out of them is a different brand of game than I care about. GM's are a *feature* not a problem. Of course this requires that you find a good one, or you skill up and become one.

Quote from: Itachi on February 14, 2023, 12:13:35 PM
So, you don't even know the games in question and is taking conclusions about them.

Do you realize that's the definition of ignorance? Or in plain english, 'talking out of your ass'?

"solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading"
"solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading"
"solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading"
"solved the problem of GM fiat and railroading"

SOLVED THE PROBLEM

IT'S SOLVED! DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE!

Is English so hard for you fucktards to grasp? This statement is ludicrous on its face. My God...

Quote from: rgalex on February 14, 2023, 12:18:25 PM
So is that a "no" then?

No game anywhere will stop a GM who will knowingly or maliciously do shitty things.  What the PbtA games do accomplish is stopping GMs (especially those new to GMing) casually or accidentally falling into those bad behaviors.

Again, NO GAME MECHANICS CAN STOP A BAD GM. You can say something like, "These mechanics encourage a style of play that keeps GMs from engaging in certain behaviors that could lead to railroading et al", but they don't STOP or SOLVE anything.

You dumbfuck storygamers want to make these overarching, blanket statements. The End. Like there's no argument whatsoever and you're just a retard for daring to question the superiority of that garbage. It's astounding. Zero evidence, just "Have you played this before? LOL QED I AM RIGHT." No. I even said I tried to play Dungeon World and it sucked. So therefore my evidence is that it sucks. What is the evidence these problems are SOLVED? Besides just saying so? I want actual fucking facts, not "The page here says X." Show me how X in any fucking possible way mitigates jackass GMing.

Sorry troll, you're going into ignore.

If anybody else wants to continue the discussion, I'll be around.