I apologize if this has been mentioned elsewhere (and doubly so if recently); my search-fu has failed me.

My gaming group is gearing up to start a new campaign this weekend, complete with new characters. I'd previously decided I want my next character to be a caster of some sort and ultimately settled on a witch for all the debuff-y goodness.

All was going well until I started putting together a spell list and was promptly reminded how much I hate Vancian magic as a game mechanic. The whole system is pretty silly, but to save time and avoid starting a flamewar with my first post, my main points of contention are the "fire-and-forget" nature of spells and the fact there's no way to change them out on the fly.

Ideally, I'd just swap Pathfinder's magic system out for Earthdawn's*, but I don't imagine it's terribly likely my DM will go for that as she's not really familiar with ED's mechanics (I'm also not really sure how one would make thread weaving work with PF's spells). That being the case, are there any alternative magic systems for Pathfinder that circumvent the mage-as-utility-belt-caster problem what aren't terribly difficult to explain/implement? Maybe something that makes casters work more like the gunslinger, which I feel is a solid model for how casters should work (i.e. grit points = Cool Stuff, but even without them you can still perform the basic function of your class).

Help me, tRPGS! You're my only hope outside of doing a bunch of time-consuming and tedious research on this stuff myself.

*Someday, dammit; someday I will find a group of gamers who lurve Earthdawn as much as I do. And I'm sure the very next day the Vogons will begin construction on the new interstellar highway.

Quick & easy spell points: 1 spell level = 1 spell point.

e.g. fireball costs 3 points.

e.g. Marvin the Magnificent is 5th-level Wizard. 2 1st-level slots, 2 2nd-level slots and 1 3rd-level slot. (2 x 1) + (2 x 2) + (1 x 3) = 9 spell points.

Right. That takes care of F&F handily enough. What about spell sorting? I was thinking of something like a quick and dirty spell attunement; as a full-round action the caster can switch out one prepared spell for a known one, to then be cast normally (with accompanying concentration check if s/he takes damage during that round). Maybe take an extra round or two for higher-level spells. Could that work, or is it too likely to result in balance headaches?

I don't want my hypothetical spellchucker to become a god or anything (not least because my rogue already did that in the campaign we just wrapped), I'd just like to be able to react to situations as they occur instead of sitting on my thumbs or being an incredibly incompetent crossbowman because I didn't prepare the right spell(s).

Quote from: woodsmoke;787175Right. That takes care of F&F handily enough. What about spell sorting?

Spontaneous casting.

Let them learn as many level-appropriate spells as [Vancian slots + INT modifier] -- no spell book, no memorization -- and choose any one to cast, on the spot, as long as they've got the juice.

Letting off a spell under fire requires a Concentration check. Lose the check, lose the spell point, and no spell.

To compensate sorcerers for losing the monopoly on spontaneous casting, you might allow them to recover that spell point, or give a bonus to Concentration, because "magic comes naturally to them" or equivalent bullshit. Or just do away with frickin' 3e?PF "sorcerers" altogether.

Quote from: woodsmoke;787175Could that work, or is it too likely to result in balance headaches?

None of the above is tested. Let your players know that it's an experiment in progress and that you get to retcon everything at the drop of a hat if you want to. And then let me know how it works out.

If you hate Vancian casting, still want to be a caster type and are not the DM in the Pathfinder game, just play an Oracle or a Sorcerer. Problem solved.

If you still want the ability to bust out a much needed but rarely used utility spell: Anyspell, Greater Anyspell, Limited Wish and Wish are the way to go. Not sure if and how the former two have made the transition from 3.5 to PF, but they should be easy enough to adopt, and it should be easier to talk your DM into allowing them in an PF game than to completely change the magic system.

I'm primarily interested in casters for the flexibility and utility (same reason I enjoy rogues), so playing a sorcerer or oracle wouldn't really give me what I want. I can't seem to find Anyspell in the Pathfinder rules; it's possible it's in a supplement we aren't using, but in either case I won't have access to it. Wish and L. Wish are great, but they're both high-level spells I may never actually get to play with.

I appreciate the advice, but I'm afraid none of it really helps. Which isn't your fault, of course; I think the root of the problem is I'm in the unfortunate position of being stuck between a mechanic I hate and it being part of the overall system the rest of my group likes.

Quote from: The Butcher;787322Spontaneous casting.

That's as good an idea as any I've come up with, and less complicated to boot. Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, I'm not the DM in this group, so I don't get to decide which magic system we use, but I'm hoping I can work something out with her.

Quote from: woodsmoke;787489I can't seem to find Anyspell in the Pathfinder rules; it's possible it's in a supplement we aren't using, but in either case I won't have access to it. Wish and L. Wish are great, but they're both high-level spells I may never actually get to play with.

Not sure if links to DnDTools are allowed here, so suffice to say that the spell descriptions for the 3.5 versions of the two Anyspell spells are just one google search away... And converting them into PF should basically boil down to striking through 3.5 and writing PF over it.

Essentially, they are lower-graded versions of Limited Wish that allow to prep any written down arcane spell of a lower level than the spell level of the Anyspell.

If you have or can get a copy of Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved, the spell system in that seems like it would perfectly fit your needs:

Spells are divided into Simple, Complex, and Exotic difficulties, with different classes having different access to them (for example, magisters gain all simple and complex, greenbonds gain simple, and all plant and positive energy) with feats expanding spell access (Fire Magic gives you all fire spells of the next highest complexity you can cast, so magisters gain all exotic fire spells) along with some minor extra bonus.6 fire damage to a spell, or 2d6 if it's already a fire spell).

Spellcasters then memorize a number of spells of each level but cast them spontaneously, essentially a sorcerer that can change his spells known each day. Spells can also be cast in lesser and greater forms by using a slot of the next lower or higher level (Sorcerous Blast, the fireball equivalent, can be cast as a 2nd level that only hits a single target, or a 4th level that does d8s and goes up to 15 dice).  In addition, casters can use spell weaving to change out how many spells of each level they can cast, burning say a 3rd level slot to gain two 2nd levels, or combing three 2nds to gain another 3rd.

There's psionics, if you (and your GM) aren't adverse to that sort of thing. The 3e system has been ported to Pathfinder by Dreamscarred Press.

Quote from: woodsmoke;787129Ideally, I'd just swap Pathfinder's magic system out for Earthdawn's*

(snip)

*Someday, dammit; someday I will find a group of gamers who lurve Earthdawn as much as I do.

You are new here, but I like you already.

Seriously. Earthdawn is so good. It's a goddamn crime so few people seem to know about/play it.

Quote from: Skyrock;787491Not sure if links to DnDTools are allowed here, so suffice to say that the spell descriptions for the 3.5 versions of the two Anyspell spells are just one google search away... And converting them into PF should basically boil down to striking through 3.5 and writing PF over it.

Essentially, they are lower-graded versions of Limited Wish that allow to prep any written down arcane spell of a lower level than the spell level of the Anyspell.

Thanks for the info. Googling it (and not failing my search roll this time) seems to indicate it's a divine spell, mainly for clerics. I suppose there's no reason I couldn't fudge the writing and just say it's a wizard spell too, though.

Quote from: hexgrid;787494There's psionics, if you (and your GM) aren't adverse to that sort of thing. The 3e system has been ported to Pathfinder by Dreamscarred Press.

I'd completely forgotten about psionics. Something else to look into.

Quote from: Archaeopteryx;787493If you have or can get a copy of Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved, the spell system in that seems like it would perfectly fit your needs:

Spells are divided into Simple, Complex, and Exotic difficulties, with different classes having different access to them (for example, magisters gain all simple and complex, greenbonds gain simple, and all plant and positive energy) with feats expanding spell access (Fire Magic gives you all fire spells of the next highest complexity you can cast, so magisters gain all exotic fire spells) along with some minor extra bonus.6 fire damage to a spell, or 2d6 if it's already a fire spell).

Spellcasters then memorize a number of spells of each level but cast them spontaneously, essentially a sorcerer that can change his spells known each day. Spells can also be cast in lesser and greater forms by using a slot of the next lower or higher level (Sorcerous Blast, the fireball equivalent, can be cast as a 2nd level that only hits a single target, or a 4th level that does d8s and goes up to 15 dice).  In addition, casters can use spell weaving to change out how many spells of each level they can cast, burning say a 3rd level slot to gain two 2nd levels, or combing three 2nds to gain another 3rd.

That sounds beautiful, not least because it seems to open up the workings of magic a bit (I've always thought D&D's spells are way too rigidly-defined). I'll definitely have to give it a look. Thanks.