Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1034808Whatever happened to "the burden of proof rests with the affirmative?"  If somebody wants my money for another edition of D&D, they have to prove to my satisfaction that the gain will be worth the expenditure.  I do not have to make a case for why I do NOT spend my money.

Nothing happened to it. Seriously, nothing. Just because the thread premise seems to have drifted into 'which of 3e, 4e, 5e. PF, or PF2 are you interested in picking up?,' that does not mean that anyone is required to buy anything, nor even really that the thread participants expect anyone to.

Quote from: Robyo;1034852Ancestry sounds really lame to me.

Honestly, though, if 'race' weren't what I was used to, I think it would also sound really lame, or at least misapplied. Trying to leave SJW-ism concerns aside, race to me does sound like 'black, white, etc.,' while ancestry sounds like 'Slovenian, Nigerian, Hmong,' and neither genuinely, to my ears, sounds like a good way to capture 'elf, dwarf, human.' They are all misapplied.

Quote from: Ulairi;1034853Why not use species then? Humans are the same species and have different ancestries. Dwarves, Elves, Hobbits, and Men are not the same species.

Feels too science for pseudomedeivalism, but on the right track. I think 'Creature Type' would be good as well. That way, if you need a separate stat block for your mounts or familiars, it can use the same format. Usually no one is playing a 'horse,' or, 'Cat, black,' but if the DM is telling you that one steps over the horizon, it's the same level of information I'm looking for as when they tell me that it is a dwarf or orc or whatnot that I am noticing.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1034808Whatever happened to "the burden of proof rests with the affirmative?"  If somebody wants my money for another edition of D&D, they have to prove to my satisfaction that the gain will be worth the expenditure.  I do not have to make a case for why I do NOT spend my money.

That's exactly what marketing in a 'mature market' is all about, and a lot of marketing (along with it being reflected back into product development) in this industry is terrible and the assumptions are terrible. In a mature market, you have users and infrastructure that are happy with what they already have. For them, most responses are going to be "no", so anything new needs to understand what are going to be the top 'no's and resolve them.

And if you have a mature customer base, if you try to make them change their ways, you are in a dangerous position if there are viable alternatives. Companies like Microsoft have gotten away with it because most of the alternatives are simply previous versions of their own products.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1034678Actually, yes they do.  Simply because of our psychology.  We're creatures of a patterns and habits, so when something deviates from it, we notice it.  And given that disrupted routines were usually a sign of danger, humans don't like it.  Hence, fear of change.

This is basic stuff, no degrees needed to know this.

Openness to new experience varies dramatically by person, and to a significant extent is innate. Some people like to read the same kinds of books, eat the same kind of food, play the same kind of games at 40 as they did at 20. Some enjoy new experiences and are keen to participate in the latest trends and innovations. Some rarely leave their home town or state. Others relocate frequently and enjoy travelling to exotic locations.

What begins as innate tendency become even more pronounced as we self-segregate into communities of like-minded people. Towns and smaller cities tend to have people who grew up nearby, keep the same occupation for a long time, rarely change habits and preferences. Big cities attract those who seek out new experiences, change jobs often, are always looking for the latest cool restaurant. And people tend to be more open to experience when young, and less open as they get older.

In gaming terms, this means you can't make any generalization about gamers. Are there people who started playing D&D in 1983, dislike most of the edition changes since then, and aren't interested in trying new systems? Yes. Likely they're older, live in smaller communities, rarely change jobs, and don't like new books and music either. On the other hand, you have today's euro boardgame players, who typically have an endless appetite for new systems, new games, new trends. It's two to four sessions with a game, and then on to something new. Learning a hot new game is a big part of the appeal of gaming to them. Unsurprisingly, these gamers tend to be younger, live in growing cities, and seek out new experiences, such as restaurants, books, employers, etc.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1034787Honest question:  Are they positive or negative comparisons?

Both.

QuoteI'm not going to Paizo's forum, because the last I was there, it was a terrible system and I could barely understand how it worked.  I'm talking their forum software.

They finally fixed it, but I agree.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1034808Whatever happened to "the burden of proof rests with the affirmative?"  If somebody wants my money for another edition of D&D, they have to prove to my satisfaction that the gain will be worth the expenditure.  I do not have to make a case for why I do NOT spend my money.

Who is forcing you to buy this?  Honest question.  We're just talking about it.  SO far, I'm not impressed.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1034904Who is forcing you to buy this?  Honest question.  We're just talking about it.  SO far, I'm not impressed.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1034678Ergo, basic deduction says "Gamers HATE change."

Apparently, I didn't buy later editions because I hate change, not because they didn't offer me anything worth my money.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1034927Apparently, I didn't buy later editions because I hate change, not because they didn't offer me anything worth my money.

Why are you taking this personally?  When I said Gamer's hate change, I'm talking in a generalization, which for the most part is accurate.  For the most part, but I'm not singling anyone out.  Not sure why you're offended by this...  This is not about you.  Never has been.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1034933Why are you taking this personally?  When I said Gamer's hate change, I'm talking in a generalization, which for the most part is accurate.  For the most part, but I'm not singling anyone out.  Not sure why you're offended by this...  This is not about you.  Never has been.

Your conclusion is bad. Gamers don't hate change for the sake of hating change. Generally nor specifically.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1034933Why are you taking this personally?  When I said Gamer's hate change, I'm talking in a generalization, which for the most part is accurate.  For the most part, but I'm not singling anyone out.  Not sure why you're offended by this...  This is not about you.  Never has been.

Come now, it should be obvious he hates change simply because if people play something different his social value drops tremendously. He can't be on-board with other versions/releases since he'd just be another gamer in that world.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1034935Your conclusion is bad. Gamers don't hate change for the sake of hating change. Generally nor specifically.

Bloody this.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1034936Come now, it should be obvious he hates change simply because if people play something different his social value drops tremendously. He can't be on-board with other versions/releases since he'd just be another gamer in that world.

Oh, yes, it can't POSSIBLY be because I happen to enjoy the game I'm playing.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1034941Oh, yes, it can't POSSIBLY be because I happen to enjoy the game I'm playing.  :rolleyes:

That's the difference between possible and probable.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1034941Oh, yes, it can't POSSIBLY be because I happen to enjoy the game I'm playing.  :rolleyes:

Ras is giving you shit, undoubtedly for the hell of it (with an accusation that's not inherently ludicrous, but pretty mean-spirited/suggests you are pretty petty).

I think Chris is being honest that his 'gamers hate change' thing was not targeted at you. I don't think he's backed up his assertion very well, and we've kinda landed at 'Some do. Some don't. It depends on what the change is. It's subjective.' which is nice and clear as mud, but that's beside the point.

No one (who is being serious) here is suggesting that you are not allowed to just like the game you like. You are extrapolating that from evidence which doesn't actually support that conclusion. If I'm going to call CB out on when I think he's wrong on his justifications of his persecution complex actions, I am going to do so with you as well. This is not people telling you you only like oD&D for nostalgia reasons, or however you usually frame your own persecution perception.

If someone at the very least reads the a newer edition and dislikes what they see I may disagree with yet can respect and understand why they don't like rpg edition XYZ. It's when they can't be bothered to read let alone play the rpg where my opinion on some gamers not liking change comes from. They don't know anything about the newer edition of a rpg. Go off second or third hand information which can be misleading. Assume by virtue of it being a new edition that it must be crap. Hide behind years of gaming experience in the hobby to not read the new edition while some also claim to be experts on the new edition on the rpg which has happened to me one to many times at least. I don't care if you were gaming when primitive man was in caves and carving D20 from petrified wood. If you don't read a new edition of a rpg a stadium full of fresh manure at least has more value than your opinion on the subject.

As for the thread topic I like what I see with what they are planning to do with magic. I'm still not impressed with Goblins being core. The goblin art we have seen so far screams more " Me gonna carve youse face offa with my choppa and wear it" then " I'm here to help you trust me".

[video=youtube_share;Skl-yeCB-9I]https://youtu.be/Skl-yeCB-9I[/youtube]

If Captain Kirk says it is so, then it is so.