Pathfinder 2nd Edition is Official

Christopher Brady · April 05, 2018, 05:19:40 PM

Quote from: S'mon;1032917It seems to me it was already working for them 2000-2008, but they didn't realise this, and shutting it down with 4e hurt them much more than they expected, because there was little 3rd party support. Running 4e currently I'm using many of the 4e Dungeon Crawl Classics modules from ca 2008 because I don't much like most of the official stuff. 5e went back to embracing the OGL, but more than that they designed a game which is easy to use with WotC's own back catalogue, driving pdf sales of their old stuff.

I'm not saying the OGL didn't work. I'm saying it HARMED WoTC. It effectively destroyed 4e. And yes, sticking with that, because when 2e to 3e happened, some stayed with the previous edition, but those who wanted to stay with a game that was supported 'officially' they had to switch, and often a lot of players did. The the OGL which allowed Pathfinder to exist legally. 4e was dead before it was even born.

James Gillen · April 05, 2018, 05:32:16 PM

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1033032I'm not saying the OGL didn't work. I'm saying it HARMED WoTC. It effectively destroyed 4e. And yes, sticking with that, because when 2e to 3e happened, some stayed with the previous edition, but those who wanted to stay with a game that was supported 'officially' they had to switch, and often a lot of players did. The the OGL which allowed Pathfinder to exist legally. 4e was dead before it was even born.

But as estar (among others) has pointed out, one of the reasons for the OGL was so that there would be a rules base that could be used if "official" D&D didn't exist anymore. At the time it was a safeguard in case the copyright owner imploded the way TSR did. It turned out to be a safeguard when the copyright owner shot itself in the foot.

JG

Christopher Brady · April 05, 2018, 08:19:47 PM

Quote from: James Gillen;1033034But as estar (among others) has pointed out, one of the reasons for the OGL was so that there would be a rules base that could be used if "official" D&D didn't exist anymore. At the time it was a safeguard in case the copyright owner imploded the way TSR did. It turned out to be a safeguard when the copyright owner shot itself in the foot.

JG

Exactly, it harmed WoTC. I'm not saying 4e was good, or bad. I'm saying the OGL never let have it have a chance to even live. Thing is, if OGL didn't exist, would have 4e died as fast as it did? We'll never really know. No matter what the OSR crowd wants to believe.

S'mon · April 06, 2018, 01:22:37 AM

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1033058Thing is, if OGL didn't exist, would have 4e died as fast as it did?

I guess with no Pathfinder it would have died slower. A more drawn out death a la 2e might have been worse for WotC though.

Christopher Brady · April 06, 2018, 01:48:12 AM

Quote from: S'mon;1033075I guess with no Pathfinder it would have died slower. A more drawn out death a la 2e might have been worse for WotC though.

You could very well be right, but hindsight and all that.

But, as we have a system that's very much akin to the older games, I honestly don't think Pathfinder 2e stands much of a chance to succeed.

Rhedyn · April 06, 2018, 12:08:07 PM

Quote from: Sara Marie[ooc]Removed some more posts and replies. When the conversation here on the forums regarding race/ancestry shifts to discussing if its "too PC", "too politically correct" or "caving to identity politics" posts inevitably stray towards discussing how the majority of gamers don't have a problem with the term "race" and therefore it should be kept as is. The implication of this argument, sometimes merely hinted at, sometimes stated outright, is that the majority of gamers are white and if they don't have a problem with it then it shouldn't be a problem. This creates a hostile environment for gamers who are not white. It dismisses them as irrelevant to the community and the conversations about gaming and allowing those conversations to stand on our forums creates an unwelcoming environment; a place on the internet where their feelings are dismissed rather than accepted. [/ooc]

This is a real Paizo community manger post in response to quibles about changing the term "Race" to "Ancestry"

Link: http://paizo.com/threads/gbir4580/favorites?Thank-you-Paizo-developers-for-replacing-race

Thought it was a nice insight into what the Paizo staff may be thinking about.

Armchair Gamer · April 06, 2018, 12:13:20 PM

Actually, "Ancestry" was a term I was considering to replace "race" for design purposes several months before this. Part of it is that race is an unnecessarily hot-button term, part of it that ancestry's a broader term that enables more design space for 'human, but one of my ancestors was a fairy/wood spirit/water nymph/demon/Creature from Beyond' stuff for a more fairy-tale/folklore/legendary kind of game, part of it is that it enables a nice 'ABC' mnemonic--Ancestry, Background, Class.

Rhedyn · April 06, 2018, 12:33:41 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1033137Actually, "Ancestry" was a term I was considering to replace "race" for design purposes several months before this. Part of it is that race is an unnecessarily hot-button term, part of it that ancestry's a broader term that enables more design space for 'human, but one of my ancestors was a fairy/wood spirit/water nymph/demon/Creature from Beyond' stuff for a more fairy-tale/folklore/legendary kind of game, part of it is that it enables a nice 'ABC' mnemonic--Ancestry, Background, Class.

I really don't care about the term used.

I find the implied "if you disagree with this you are racist" hilarious from a mod.

fearsomepirate · April 06, 2018, 12:44:58 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn;1033135This is a real Paizo community manger post in response to quibles about changing the term "Race" to "Ancestry"

Link: http://paizo.com/threads/gbir4580/favorites?Thank-you-Paizo-developers-for-replacing-race

Thought it was a nice insight into what the Paizo staff may be thinking about.

So Paizo is chasing that elusive mass of nonwhites who don't play Pathfinder now, but would if a few minor cosmetic and linguistic changes were made to the game. I wish them luck.

S'mon · April 06, 2018, 01:01:43 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn;1033135This is a real Paizo community manger post in response to quibles about changing the term "Race" to "Ancestry"

I like 'partly outbred extended family'

- but 'ancestry' means the same as traditional uses of 'race' - the Scots race, the English race, the Dwarven race - a member of that race has ancestors of that race.

Edit: But of course the word 'race' is not offensive to non-whites, that seems to be a trope recently invented by the Baizuo/White Left.

Re Political Correctness and player diversity, there are some traditional pulp fantasy tropes I would avoid now in case of offence to my black player(s). Thinking in particular of some 'savage native' tropes. Maybe my player(s) wouldn't care, but I don't fancy risking it.

Franky · April 06, 2018, 01:38:33 PM

I would have preferred the term species. Ancestry and race imply different groups within the species.

Paizo Community Manager response is nothing but a repetition of the usual mindless drivel of people who don't want to think about these things because it makes them feel icky and compels them to feel offended on behalf of others. A form of Noblesse Oblige. I think that is the term. :rolleyes:

joewolz · April 06, 2018, 01:59:20 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1033137Actually, "Ancestry" was a term I was considering to replace "race" for design purposes several months before this. Part of it is that race is an unnecessarily hot-button term, part of it that ancestry's a broader term that enables more design space for 'human, but one of my ancestors was a fairy/wood spirit/water nymph/demon/Creature from Beyond' stuff for a more fairy-tale/folklore/legendary kind of game, part of it is that it enables a nice 'ABC' mnemonic--Ancestry, Background, Class.

That's cool, and changes the game in a way that isn't weird/unusual.

Mistwell · April 06, 2018, 02:29:21 PM

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1033140So Paizo is chasing that elusive mass of nonwhites who don't play Pathfinder now, but would if a few minor cosmetic and linguistic changes were made to the game. I wish them luck.

I've seen it articulated more often like this: Chasing white males who, based on guilt they feel over their private discriminatory thoughts or past unacceptable behavior, want to signal their righteousness. Which can include buying a product they feel signals that righteousness as well.

I am not sure that's a genuine thing, but I've seen people mention that as a possibility. It's sort of the Coffee Table Book theory of consumption; you buy something to send a signal about how you want to be perceived.

Manic Modron · April 06, 2018, 03:27:17 PM

Another blog post is up and is focusing on Ancestries again.

It looks like the various species are still called races in game, but an Ancestry is the general bucket that you put racial and cultural traits and feats into. They also seem to be decoupling biological and social abilities, so while you can have a dwarf who has trained with all the weapons of his people, not every dwarf automatically knows how to swing an axe well.

James Gillen · April 06, 2018, 06:25:40 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn;1033135This is a real Paizo community manger post in response to quibles about changing the term "Race" to "Ancestry"

Link: http://paizo.com/threads/gbir4580/favorites?Thank-you-Paizo-developers-for-replacing-race

Thought it was a nice insight into what the Paizo staff may be thinking about.

Yeah, that's a problem.

Quote from: Manic Modron;1033158Another blog post is up and is focusing on Ancestries again.

It looks like the various species are still called races in game, but an Ancestry is the general bucket that you put racial and cultural traits and feats into. They also seem to be decoupling biological and social abilities, so while you can have a dwarf who has trained with all the weapons of his people, not every dwarf automatically knows how to swing an axe well.

Well, this is the valid part of the change.

jg