Quote from: Chris24601 on December 09, 2020, 11:03:33 AM

Quote from: sureshot on December 09, 2020, 08:50:20 AM
Honestly any rpg selling point of being modular is somewhat overrated.

I tend to agree. That's why I don't bill my game system as modular.

That said, I do have a whole section of optional rules that can allow it to better emulate various editions of D&D.

A link/Title? Sounds very much up my alley.

Quote from: JeffB on December 09, 2020, 12:33:13 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 09, 2020, 11:03:33 AM
I tend to agree. That's why I don't bill my game system as modular.

That said, I do have a whole section of optional rules that can allow it to better emulate various editions of D&D.

A link/Title? Sounds very much up my alley.

The game is called 'Ruins & Realms' (a reference to the PCs who cross between the monster-haunted ruin-filled wilds and the last bastions of the civilized world) that is the in final phases of writing (the only section left is a guide to help new GMs build a region to set their campaigns in) with a target for writing completion of the end of the month (day job requirements are the only possible hindrances - Christmas season can get crazy).

I'm also having it be aggressively play-tested, so if you're willing to give me some feedback in exchange, send me a PM and I'll shoot you a link to the latest playtest iteration (its fully playable, unless you need help building a province-sized area to have adventures in; the final sections are all about making the whole system as new-player/new-GM friendly as possible).

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 08, 2020, 09:45:07 PM
... D&D being the most popular is to be expected. D&D to dominate and other games to be a tiny percentage next to it is disheartening.

I agree.

And a good portion of the "blame" for that dominance can be laid at the feet of Ryan Dancy. The goal of OGL d20 was for the D&D house system to subsume and dominate other gaming systems. It was a brilliant move.

D&D and the rest of the RPG hobby are two different things. But for the majority of people D&D is the RPG hobby.

When D&D's market share was not quite so massive as it is now, in the 80's to 90's, that was a better time for the RPG hobby as a whole.

You had a greater variety of games more readily available on the shelves at actual gaming stores for people new to the hobby to see that there was more out there after the D&D gateway drug.

In D&D's "defense", when they did have a low market share, no one really stepped up to the plate to be a perennially strong number two... (Baizuo was never going to be it...)

In the other games defense, when D&D screwed the pooch, they benefitted from 2 buy-outs and a corporate money injection to right the ship. Such are the benefits of being the market leader...

Quote from: bat on December 08, 2020, 11:35:21 PM
... So it isn't just grognards that want it their way. Apparently some of the new wave of gamers are so set on 5e that they do not see that it is also a crunchy game.

A lot of the new wave gamers handwave a lot of rules once they get done with PC creation.

This is part of the Mercer effect of playing fast and lose with rules to keep "The Fiction Moving".

People playing in the new "Mercer Style" would probably be better served with a bit more rules light system. But that system would not say D&D on the cover, and it would not get played.

Quote from: oggsmash on December 09, 2020, 10:36:45 AM...
  I do not much care for d20 systems, but my group likes them the most, and the reality is they tend to be the ones with the longer development concepts behind them and seem to be easier to grasp for most people. 

5e D&D is a solid mid-crunch game. And is no easier to learn than many other systems.

It seems easier to grasp. But that is only because d20 is so pervasive now.

Quote from: oggsmash on December 09, 2020, 10:36:45 AM...
I would really love for PF2 (lecture paragraph and all) to be a real competitor to D&D, and I am a bit confused as to why they are not (I remember at GenCON 2016 pathfinder had a H U G E presence, and I do not remember even seeing a WOTC booth) at least in terms of sales.

WOTC doesn't do gencon – I believe that's because Baizuo is a big sponsor for gencon...

PF2 is no competitor to 5e because Baizuo went in the wrong design direction catering to their hardcore base, and ignoring what was happening in the hobby with 5e.

But given their position it was an easy mistake for them to make.

It was a simple compounding of their first mistake when they took the wrong design direction for PF1 – they were never going to be a true competitor once WOTC got its act together with 5e.

The quick turnaround from 4e to 5e put Baizuo in a big bind as well.

The second Hasbro saw PF1 was kicking 4e's ass, they spanked WOTC, and had them shift to new edition mode. That shit cost BIG $$$$.

Baizuo released PF1 in August 2008, only 3 months after 4e was released in June 2008.

5e was released in 2014. 7 years is a short edition run.

And WOTC benefitted enormously from having a relatively clean sheet design brief to work from given how much 4e was disliked. This is a highly underestimated point in 5e's favor.

The designers literally did not have to give a fuck about "backwards compatibility",  or any reactions from 4e's "fanbase".

What was Baizuo supposed to do? Would the PF1 fanbase have followed them over to a PF2 released in 2015?

What design direction was Baizuo supposed to take with PF2?

Especially since WOTC sucked all the oxygen out of the room with 5e's rolling back of system mastery and rules complexity. The very design space Baizuo's PF1 should have been at in 2008 with a cleaned up and streamlined 3.x...

Baizuo made a good bet in 2008 that 4e would suck. But it was a fluke of circumstances. And having doubled down on that bet when the underlying conditions are no longer the same will not favor their market position in the long run.

It would take ten years for pazio PF1 and PF2 to die out.   No?

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 09, 2020, 04:56:41 PM

Quote from: JeffB on December 09, 2020, 12:33:13 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 09, 2020, 11:03:33 AM
I tend to agree. That's why I don't bill my game system as modular.

That said, I do have a whole section of optional rules that can allow it to better emulate various editions of D&D.

A link/Title? Sounds very much up my alley.

The game is called 'Ruins & Realms' (a reference to the PCs who cross between the monster-haunted ruin-filled wilds and the last bastions of the civilized world) that is the in final phases of writing (the only section left is a guide to help new GMs build a region to set their campaigns in) with a target for writing completion of the end of the month (day job requirements are the only possible hindrances - Christmas season can get crazy).

I'm also having it be aggressively play-tested, so if you're willing to give me some feedback in exchange, send me a PM and I'll shoot you a link to the latest playtest iteration (its fully playable, unless you need help building a province-sized area to have adventures in; the final sections are all about making the whole system as new-player/new-GM friendly as possible).

I'm afraid I would be no help at the moment for playtesting. Moving and most of my group is on hiatus thanks to the plandemic. But keep me in the loop on release!

Quote from: JeffB on December 10, 2020, 08:00:34 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 09, 2020, 04:56:41 PM

Quote from: JeffB on December 09, 2020, 12:33:13 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 09, 2020, 11:03:33 AM
I tend to agree. That's why I don't bill my game system as modular.

That said, I do have a whole section of optional rules that can allow it to better emulate various editions of D&D.

A link/Title? Sounds very much up my alley.

The game is called 'Ruins & Realms' (a reference to the PCs who cross between the monster-haunted ruin-filled wilds and the last bastions of the civilized world) that is the in final phases of writing (the only section left is a guide to help new GMs build a region to set their campaigns in) with a target for writing completion of the end of the month (day job requirements are the only possible hindrances - Christmas season can get crazy).

I'm also having it be aggressively play-tested, so if you're willing to give me some feedback in exchange, send me a PM and I'll shoot you a link to the latest playtest iteration (its fully playable, unless you need help building a province-sized area to have adventures in; the final sections are all about making the whole system as new-player/new-GM friendly as possible).

I'm afraid I would be no help at the moment for playtesting. Moving and most of my group is on hiatus thanks to the plandemic. But keep me in the loop on release!

Will do... its all good on my end.

Barring work complications, end of the year (month at this point) for writing completion, then my next step is getting a Kickstarter (or equivalent) organized to pay for the rest of the artwork it needs, a professional copy editor and other production sundries with the draft rules as an immediate pledge reward (thus proving this isn't a vaporware project to backers) and physical/pdf copies of one or both books as various pledge level rewards (which will hopefully avoid any boondoggles involving oddball third-party supplied rewards).

So the next major announcement (beyond "FINALLY done with the writing! YAY!!!") will probably be on the Kickstarter sticky at the top of this board when that's ready to launch.

Quote from: dmariz_BlackUnicorn on December 10, 2020, 07:49:24 AM
It would take ten years for pazio PF1 and PF2 to die out.   No?

To completely die out as gamelines? If Baizuo stopped support, sure.

But I think that at some point Baizuo will acknowledge reality; 'restructure' / downsize, and continue to exist, a Pathfinder rpg will be around for a while.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 10, 2020, 10:01:12 AM

Quote from: JeffB on December 10, 2020, 08:00:34 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 09, 2020, 04:56:41 PM

Quote from: JeffB on December 09, 2020, 12:33:13 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 09, 2020, 11:03:33 AM
I tend to agree. That's why I don't bill my game system as modular.

That said, I do have a whole section of optional rules that can allow it to better emulate various editions of D&D.

A link/Title? Sounds very much up my alley.

The game is called 'Ruins & Realms' (a reference to the PCs who cross between the monster-haunted ruin-filled wilds and the last bastions of the civilized world) that is the in final phases of writing (the only section left is a guide to help new GMs build a region to set their campaigns in) with a target for writing completion of the end of the month (day job requirements are the only possible hindrances - Christmas season can get crazy).

I'm also having it be aggressively play-tested, so if you're willing to give me some feedback in exchange, send me a PM and I'll shoot you a link to the latest playtest iteration (its fully playable, unless you need help building a province-sized area to have adventures in; the final sections are all about making the whole system as new-player/new-GM friendly as possible).

I'm afraid I would be no help at the moment for playtesting. Moving and most of my group is on hiatus thanks to the plandemic. But keep me in the loop on release!

Will do... its all good on my end.

Barring work complications, end of the year (month at this point) for writing completion, then my next step is getting a Kickstarter (or equivalent) organized to pay for the rest of the artwork it needs, a professional copy editor and other production sundries with the draft rules as an immediate pledge reward (thus proving this isn't a vaporware project to backers) and physical/pdf copies of one or both books as various pledge level rewards (which will hopefully avoid any boondoggles involving oddball third-party supplied rewards).

So the next major announcement (beyond "FINALLY done with the writing! YAY!!!") will probably be on the Kickstarter sticky at the top of this board when that's ready to launch.

Thanks for the FYI- I will keep my eyes peeled.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 10, 2020, 01:02:28 PM

Quote from: dmariz_BlackUnicorn on December 10, 2020, 07:49:24 AM
It would take ten years for pazio PF1 and PF2 to die out.   No?

To completely die out as gamelines? If Baizuo stopped support, sure.

But I think that at some point Baizuo will acknowledge reality; 'restructure' / downsize, and continue to exist, a Pathfinder rpg will be around for a while.

or be sold....
but I agree.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 10, 2020, 01:02:28 PM

Quote from: dmariz_BlackUnicorn on December 10, 2020, 07:49:24 AM
It would take ten years for pazio PF1 and PF2 to die out.   No?

To completely die out as gamelines? If Baizuo stopped support, sure.

But I think that at some point Baizuo will acknowledge reality; 'restructure' / downsize, and continue to exist, a Pathfinder rpg will be around for a while.

I hope they keep the PF 1E core books in print for a few more years.  As long as they are in print, knuckleheads can't truly label it a dead rule set.  Then there's always the secondary market for books.  PF 1E can be played for years to come, just as D&D 3.5 is still played today.

While Aggravating for Grognards to acknowledge, I think 3e is big enough as a whole to be its own thing similar to OD&D at this point.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 11, 2020, 09:09:47 AM
While Aggravating for Grognards to acknowledge, I think 3e is big enough as a whole to be its own thing similar to OD&D at this point.

Not only it's own thing... 3e's core mechanics were, with just slight tweaking, also the core of 4E and 5e (task resolution, action economy, the attributes and their modifiers, grid-based movement, feats as customization system, etc.).

In other words 3e is the foundation of the number one (5e) and two (PF) game systems on the market along with a host of 3rd party and derivative (ex. Mutants & Masterminds 3e, PF2) systems.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 11, 2020, 09:58:55 AM
...
Not only it's own thing... 3e's core mechanics were, with just slight tweaking, also the core of 4E and 5e (task resolution, action economy, the attributes and their modifiers, grid-based movement, feats as customization system, etc.).
...

And 3e OGL is the foundation of the OSR. Yes there are games which re-write everything and do not use it. But no 3e OGL, and the OSR would not exist in it's present form.

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 11, 2020, 09:58:55 AM
In other words 3e is the foundation of the number one (5e) and two (PF) game systems on the market along with a host of 3rd party and derivative (ex. Mutants & Masterminds 3e, PF2) systems.

This was Dancey's intention with the OGL. And it succeeded brilliantly.

It is the reason why D&D has gone from the 800lb. Gorilla in the hobby, to the 80,000lb. King Kong of the hobby...

Quote from: Chris24601 on December 11, 2020, 09:58:55 AM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 11, 2020, 09:09:47 AM
While Aggravating for Grognards to acknowledge, I think 3e is big enough as a whole to be its own thing similar to OD&D at this point.

Not only it's own thing... 3e's core mechanics were, with just slight tweaking, also the core of 4E and 5e (task resolution, action economy, the attributes and their modifiers, grid-based movement, feats as customization system, etc.).

Yeah - while 5e definitely took some inspiration from bits of both 4e & earlier editions as well as adding some new bits, at its core it feels most like a streamlining and flattening of 3.x. (flattening as in the power curve) While it lost some of 3.x's depth & customization, it cleaned out a lot of the cludge (though certainly not all) and made it much easier to pick up and learn etc.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on December 11, 2020, 01:21:38 PM
Yeah - while 5e definitely took some inspiration from bits of both 4e & earlier editions as well as adding some new bits, at its core it feels most like a streamlining and flattening of 3.x. (flattening as in the power curve) While it lost some of 3.x's depth & customization, it cleaned out a lot of the cludge (though certainly not all) and made it much easier to pick up and learn etc.

Which is also why it was able to gut PF so effectively; because a cleaned up 3e is also basically a cleaned up PF.

Which in turn pretty much dictated that PF2 had to go even harder into the fiddly crunch because any other direction would essentially just be a houseruled 5e.

Basically, the only people really left out in the cold by 5e were high-crunch PF fans and those who had their favorite parts of 4E thrown under the bus (my personal peeve was Mearls' comments about how ridiculous warlords "shouting people's hands back on" was when he was perfectly aware that 4E didn't have any sort of dismemberment mechanic precisely because it relied on non-physical hit points for its mechanics; which is also why you could regain them all with a full night's rest).

Which in turn means about the only avenues outside of 5e splat production are things that specifically reject one or more elements of 5e and marketing towards that.