Quote from: Lurtch;1065694Savage Worlds doesn't run Rifts the way it was created to be run.

Well...

SW doesn't play anything like Palladium systemically. It's very much SW with an injection of Rifts power-levels. There's a lot of novel things that this has done to SW that has changed my entire perception of "high-level" and low-level play in SW (and I think it's had an impact on Pinnacle too seeing some of the upcoming changes to their new edition and  post-SWRifts offerings).

There is little Palladium can learn from Savage Worlds other than learning that sometimes less is more.

Quote from: tenbones;1066098There is little Palladium can learn from Savage Worlds other than learning that sometimes less is more.

They could have learned this long ago, merely by watching a fashion show:D!
Now they just have to apply it to their game;).

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1065698We took boxing for the +1 attack. They could have called it Barglewargle, and we still would have took it.

I call it "Make Somebody Stop Living With Your Fist".

jg

Quote from: RPGPundit;1066057The only thing they really need to simplify are the Skills.

Are they still in multiple locations in the most recent revision of the books (i.e. several of them nut in the section labeled "Skills" ?

Quote from: tenbones;1066093Nope. Mainly because I know Palladium is his little baby, and I've read enough controversial stories about working with KS, that frankly, even if only 1% of those stories have any validity, or let's just say *NONE* of them do, for argument's sake - then my perception of KS is that he is very protective of his IP and he likes doing things on his own time in his own way.

Marry that with the finanical issues he's had to deal with due to various controversies I'm willing to allow were not all his doing, and treachery from the inside etc. etc.

A certain pattern emerges about KS, that in my charitable moments I feel that he's a guy that's got a lot on his plate and doesn't have the time/energy/finances to re-tool a process that I'm not entirely sure he feels is broken. Couple that with the fact he's very touchy about the IP... which until the Savage Worlds edition (which shocked the hell out of me) - I assumed the IP was in an Ice Age, locked away.

Maybe there is some sunlight in the Megaverse now. Maybe. That's for KS to decide. I hope he does.

Well, I am not a games writer and I dont know any. SPF said at a local con here in Phoenix that Kevin was really easy to work with. I dont know if he lied to me or not.

Kevin is in his sixties. At some point he has to have an exit strategy.

I'm sure he could sell Palladium and walk away with big chunk of change. Who knows what he's open to now and days.

Quote from: tenbones;1066098Well...

SW doesn't play anything like Palladium systemically. It's very much SW with an injection of Rifts power-levels. There's a lot of novel things that this has done to SW that has changed my entire perception of "high-level" and low-level play in SW (and I think it's had an impact on Pinnacle too seeing some of the upcoming changes to their new edition and  post-SWRifts offerings).

There is little Palladium can learn from Savage Worlds other than learning that sometimes less is more.

I know. I really like Savage Rifts but like you said it's a different game. Just when I picked it up to play I was shocked with how different Savage Worlds was. I now own the Savage World of Solomon Kane and all of its books and the Lankhmar books.

Quote from: NYTFLYR;1065784I don't have mine anymore, I got rid of it with all my Palladium online presence when he sent it to me. He never did let me know what the offending material was.

For something that happened so often it's funny that nobody kept one of these mysterious letters....

Quote from: Lurtch;1066205For something that happened so often it's funny that nobody kept one of these mysterious letters....

The fact that several unrelated people who have received said mysterious letters makes it funnier that you disbelieve them.

Quote from: Lurtch;1066203Well, I am not a games writer and I dont know any. SPF said at a local con here in Phoenix that Kevin was really easy to work with. I dont know if he lied to me or not.

Kevin is in his sixties. At some point he has to have an exit strategy.

I'm sure he could sell Palladium and walk away with big chunk of change. Who knows what he's open to now and days.

Well like I said - I don't know KS personally. I've heard great things about him. Heard some horror-stories too. Neither end of that spectrum of opinion in and of itself matters a lot to me without context. What I'm willing to allow is that KS grew up in this industry and made decisions he thought was best for his IP. There has been *endless* quibbling and flame-warring and controversy about those decisions, some of them very very valid. Some, not so much. The *one* thing no one can deny is that KS deeply deeply cares and is protective about the Megaverse - arguably at times to the IP's detriment.

I'm personally less interested in re-hashing those controversies as I am interested in KS taking his IP where I feel it belongs today. It is a ridiculously good setting(s) that deserves to be updated and played voraciously. The Megaverse's fanbase is intensely loyal and have stuck through a lot of years of wandering in the desert (many came to enjoy it). But lets face it - they're due for some rain.

The only person that can give it to them is KS. And you should know by now - entering your 60's in TTRPG's only means you're seasoned. Grognardism is eternal.

Quote from: sureshot;1066087The could streamline the skills imo. Their is no reason to have computer operations and programming as two separate skills. The first is the main skill the second should be a specialization. The skills system has two many skills like that. Give another reason for taking Physical skills beyond just combat bonuses.

Too many redundant OCCS. They can definitely be streamlined.

The OCCs are definitely super-redundant, and yet there's a certain quaint charm to that.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1066542The OCCs are definitely super-redundant, and yet there's a certain quaint charm to that.

No..no their really is not any charm or it being quaint imo. I rather get more information about the world and setting from a sourcebook. Then yet another Coalition Grunt rewritten, rehashed occ. With little to no changes except one or two new skills, and maybe new equipment. Oh wait the weapons are also equally rehashed and rewritten as well.

Savage Rifts has it's flaws yet it has shown that sometimes less is more.

One thing I would like to see is a less power creep. Certain things that are too powerful should not simply be tossed into the next book simply by being cool yet also incredibly broken at the same time.

More mundane enemies instead of alien intelligence under every rock. Not every enemy needs to be an alien intelligence of tremendous powers and unlimited resources.

Or worse Palladium love affair with the rotten apple syndrome. Where you have as a good example the Atlanteans who somehow don't see know yet alone notice one of their own clans is killing them off one by one. Who are hiding in plain sight. With unlimited resources and loyalty of their members. Even with gods investigating the issue are still in hiding. Kevin and his freelancers love the Mary Sue organizations except it gets annoying real fast when such Mary sues keep showing up in the setting. with the usual bullshit of no one noticing, absolute loyalty and unlimited resources.

Make sure that the enemies actually act their alignment as well as the heroic organizations. Somehow the evil organizations are a well oiled machine who seems to get along well with each other. When the game alignment mechanics specifically state they would more often than not be at each other throats. Yet somehow the good aligned organizations for the flimsiest of reasons in game, don't trust each other or play well with others. Refusing to lose their independence. Basically written as being incredibly stubbornly stupid about it.

Fix the magic system. D&D no longer has the take 1 point of damage from little timmy and a bag of pebbles and lose concentration and the spell fizzles routine anymore. Men at arms and Psychic occs don't lose an attack or take negative penalties for taking damage. why would casters be singled out. Don't go on a semi-rant in the books claiming that " casters need to be sneaky and smart to survive in Rifts" .Yet have the art showing them to be at the front lines doing the exact opposite in the books. As well I would give casters and psychics the same abilites. It makes no sense to me at least that psychics can shut down tech or take control of it. Yet somehow mages who are persecuted by the CS on a regular basis do not have the same. Fixing the magic system means actually addressing the flaws. Not toss the same weapons that the psychic and fighter classes have as a band-aid fix except they run on PPE. Or make ppe channelling an optional official rule to fix the issue. Telling characters who rely on magic to use a weapon instead is a two galaxy sized cop-out of epic proportions. Made worse that the rpg states they will use magic first before tech. Telling a Fighter in 1E Pathfinder to use a bow at a flying opponent does not make the Linear Fighter Quadratic Issues go away at all.

I'm actually fond of the Savage Rifts "ACES" (Adventurer/???/Engineer/Science) class as a sort of catch-all for all the "specialized training" classes (rogue scientist/scholar, cyber-doc, body fixer, operator, wilderness scout, most of the Coalition OCCs). That is definitely something I could see transfered into a new version of Rifts.

Rifts Ultimate Edition largely fixed the magic issues sureshot mentioned though.

Spellcasting times were adjusted so that level 1-5 spells (where the bulk of the direct attack spells are) take just one action to cast and therefore can't be interrupted anymore. Level 6-10 spells take two actions but also have much bigger and longer lasting effects. Level 11+ spells take 3 actions, but usually cost so much PPE you're not going to be using them directly in combat anyway.

They also fixed the PPE issue by changing the way spellcasters draw on ley lines from a 1/hour big charge up to a "draw 10 PPE per round if within a mile of a ley-line; 20 per round within a mile of a nexus." Ley-Line Walkers special connection lets them draw twice as much PPE (20/40 per round). This gives them basically unlimited magic when fighting in their element, (my go to spell "magic net" is just 5 PPE so on a ley line my line walker can fire those off with every action and not even have to touch his personal reserves), but they still have to be careful to not just cast big spells willy nilly when away from magic rich areas. This is in addition to the increased range and duration from being near a line (spells that get stronger in other ways now have that listed in their descriptions).

Even psychics (whose ISP costs are much lower) get a bump from ley lines (albeit an erratic one; 1d6 ISP/round).

Other than poor organization, way too many skills and PCs taking way too long to stat up, Rifts really has had its mechanics mostly worked out for nearly a decade now. They don't have the "elegant simplicity" of a unified resolution mechanic, but they're easy enough that even a ten year old can follow them in play.

Clean up the skills/OCCs (which would also fix a lot of the issues with PC creation time) and have a professional copy-editor reorganize the core book into a coherent order and Rifts would be a solid system for the next twenty years.

One example of how they could save a lot of time at character creation and clean up the presentation would be, instead of listing the OCC bonus to a skill, just put the adjusted skill percentage right on the list since the OCC layout is one skill per line anyway (i.e. instead of "Electrical Engineering (+30%)" just put "Electrical Engineering (50+5%/level)").

Quote from: Chris24601;1066573I'm actually fond of the Savage Rifts "ACES" (Adventurer/???/Engineer/Science) class as a sort of catch-all for all the "specialized training" classes (rogue scientist/scholar, cyber-doc, body fixer, operator, wilderness scout, most of the Coalition OCCs). That is definitely something I could see transfered into a new version of Rifts.

M.A.R.S (Mercenaries, Adventurers, Rogues, and Scholars) which includes: Body-Fixer, City Rat, Cybernetic Techno-Warrior, Merc Soldier, Operator, Personal Concept Option (this is the catch-all), Power Armor Soldier, Psi-Operator, Robot Armor Pilot, Rogue Scholar, Vagabond, Wilderness and Scout.

They then roll on a table for extra bonus stuff. Idk how the "Heroes Journey" relates to Palladium's system.

Rifts I loved for the over the top zany.  I used to like there were options to be CS soldiers and operatives, I do not know if you still can or not, I do know it seems that option is closed in SW (dont know if that is new age of rifts or a SW decision).   I forgave many of the massive logic flaws (the massive resources and technocracy of the CS despite keeping everyone "illiterate" and so forth) because it was intriguing.  I think the rules though were and are a hot mess.   I feel he should just sell the IP for as much as he can get to a company like Pinnacle (who for me, the Savage rifts is not only different from rifts, but a whole lot better.) and step aside.   Or maybe Carella would buy it and use the system Eden (AFMBE, Witchcraft, Armageddon, etc) had to run with the game.  I think Eden was probably the best iteration of what would be great for Rifts, but SW did a great job of bringing the setting to life with better rules.

Quote from: Rhedyn;1066594M.A.R.S (Mercenaries, Adventurers, Rogues, and Scholars) which includes: Body-Fixer, City Rat, Cybernetic Techno-Warrior, Merc Soldier, Operator, Personal Concept Option (this is the catch-all), Power Armor Soldier, Psi-Operator, Robot Armor Pilot, Rogue Scholar, Vagabond, Wilderness and Scout.

They then roll on a table for extra bonus stuff. Idk how the "Heroes Journey" relates to Palladium's system.

Thank you. I didn't have my copy of Savage Rifts with me at the time I replied, but I knew it had a rather catchy acronym and covered a whole slew of what should have probably just been a single OCC with a wider array of skill options instead of dozens of separate OCCs with only slight variations in OCC/Secondary/Other skills.

The Savage Rifts "Heroes Journey" wouldn't mesh all that well with the existing rules (most of those would be specific OCC benefits), but Kevin would probably really appreciate all the random rolls regardless.

My guess though is that if they were to consolidate classes using a M.A.R.S. type OCC would be that they'd set it up along the lines of the CS technical officer where they'd get a selection of "MOS Skills" (basically different packages of primary skills) based on your chosen area of expertise and then a unified "Other/Secondary Skills" section. I also suspect that the Robot/Power Armor Pilot would remain a separate OCC as Kevin did actually try to give the Scholar & Adventurer classes some extra skill-related edges to counterbalance the Men-at-Arms classes getting bionics, chemical augments and robots/power armor.